open thread – January 22-23, 2021

by Alison Green on January 22, 2021

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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{ 1,113 comments }

{ 1,113 comments… read them below }

  1. AlexandrinaVictoria*

    I use a rollator (a walker with wheels and a seat) while I’m at work, a cane at other times. Our office closed in March 2020 and will remain closed until April of this year at least. I left my walker by the back door, where it has always lived when I’m not at work, on my last day there.
    I’ve recently had need for the walker, and went, with permission, to the office to pick it up. It wasn’t in its place. I called security…no clue. I called facilities…no clue. No one can find it. I spent quite a bit of money on it, and it would be a hardship to buy another one. Not that I should HAVE to buy another one. What do you suggest? Do I ask work to replace it? I’m stymied. Who would steal a walker???

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      Is there a way to send a message to everyone asking about it? I wonder if it was innocently moved (such as during a deep clean) & someone forgot to put it back.

      Otherwise, who takes a walker?! That’s pretty clearly something you need & didn’t just get on a whim.

      1. Disco Janet*

        I agree with messaging everyone! Sometimes buildings have devices like this around in case anyone is to injure themselves at work – like, we have a wheelchair that is generally kept in storage in case of emergency – maybe someone who isn’t a regular part of your office just didn’t realize it was yours and stored it somewhere. Or yeah, deep cleaning. I wouldn’t assume ill intent without sending out a message to check with everyone. I hope it turns up quickly!

      2. bluephone*

        That’s where I’d start. With all the craziness of companies suddenly switching to WFH back in March, it’s very likely that someone moved it and then forgot all about it. I’d bet my hat that it’s sitting in a closet or empty cubicle somewhere. Good luck!

    3. CTT*

      I’m not sure how big your office is, but would you feel comfortable sending an email asking if anyone has seen it? I could see a well-meaning person wanting to put it somewhere else for safekeeping and not consider that you might come back and not find it. (Something similar happened in my office while someone was out on a long medical leave, so that was my first thought. I hope no one stole it!)

    4. Person from the Resume*

      I suspect someone moved it rather than stole it because who would steal a walker? Have you tried an all office, all facility email?

      You can ask them to replace it. It would be good of them to replace it. I don’t think you can expect or demand that they replace it.

      1. irene adler*

        I’ll tell you who would steal a walker.
        A co-worker.
        One that needed one for a family member or friend.
        And it’s a co-worker that folks are not aware have a family member or friend that might need walking assistance.

        I’m in a small company (less than 20 people). And we’ve all been here 15+ years. So you think you’d know co-worker’s true character. We all thought we could trust each other. NOPE! When this pandemic began, someone stole all our N95 masks from inventory. They put cardboard into the mask boxes to simulate the weight/feel of the masks. Only, when we needed those masks, we discovered the hard way that they were gone.

        2. June First*

          My jaw just dropped. That’s not just someone assuming the masks were available to take home. Just…wow.

    5. Dust Bunny*

      I would try the all-office email first. Maybe it was stolen, but maybe somebody saw an item left near a door for weeks and put it in storage somewhere. I think it’s possible that it was either in the way of somebody who needed to move something through the door or was a concern in terms of fire codes/not blocking routes of egress.

    6. HR Exec Popping In*

      I would recommend following up with whomever is the office admin/coordinator or whatever for the group that works in that area. If after continuing to ask around the walker is not found I think it is reasonable to raise this with your manager and ask them about options to get it replaced. Generally, companies would tell you they are not responsible for personal property left onsite. HOWEVER, this is medical equipment that you need to get around to do your job. That means that having it replaced could be considered a medical accommodation. If this was in my organization, I would authorize replacement for the walker.

    7. DivineMissL*

      I agree with the others – send out an email. I had an item stored in a closet at my office that disappeared; I sent out several emails over the course of 3 months, asking if anyone had seen it. Then one of the volunteers (not on the company email) mentioned that she had taken it in her car after a community event and it had been there ever since. Sometimes there is an innocent explanation.

    8. The Other Dawn*

      Just send an email to everyone in your building and ask if it was moved. I mean, it’s possible it was stolen, but that’s not the most likely explanation. It probably got moved. I stop into my office once a month or so to grab my mail and there’s always something that’s been moved, usually chairs since there’s a few people still working from the office.

    9. Salt & Vinegar Chips*

      You can always ask if they would cover it, they are usually under or up to about $500 so it would be them covering the cost as most work insurance deductibles start at $500 to $1000. Though unless your company is very generous I would expect them to decline the request but I would still ask its the start of a new year and money can be moved around this early . I would also walk the floors desk to desk first or have bring a family member in to walk desk to desk, most likely someone was playing on it and left it by a desk out of the way.

    10. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Who has had access to the building while it’s been closed? Since there wasn’t a report of a break in…I suspect it was taken intentionally, but maybe with the excuse that they were “borrowing” it for themself or a family member and would return it before anyone noticed… I would ask that your employer replace it. When we had a rash of petty thefts from our offices and break room and the university covered the loss because it was a person on their payroll. If it was a break in from an outside person, they might not have covered it.

    11. Crowley*

      In my old job I used to do the admin for an ex gratia fund, whereby anyone who had stuff lost or damaged at work could claim the money back. I’d email round first as suggested above, but if not, I’d ask if work can give you the money to replace it.

    12. gsa*

      Contact your Manager for direction. I would do that before an ALCON email.

      Good luck, I hope you find your rollator.

      1. I've Escaped Cubicle Land*

        If you need something cheap in a pinch to get you thru while you are waiting to see if the missing rollator can be found, you might try contacting the local thrift shops and seeing if they have walkers in stock. I see them all the time at the thrifts for $10-$20. Not as nice as a rollator but might get you thru until yours can be relocated or replaced. One of my friends walks with a cane. When she’s ill she tends to have dizzy spells which has led to a few falls. I suggested she get a cheap thrift walker to have handy when she’s already feeling under the weather. Most of the time she’s ok with just the cane but when you need more its nice to have that option in the back closet.

    13. RagingADHD*

      In some buildings I’ve worked in, building management oversees the cleaning staff, security and facilities (ie repair and maintenance). The cleaners only come in at night, so there’s no direct client contact number, but there are direct contact numbers for the security and facilities teams. If that’s the case with your site, I’d try calling building management directly.

      I can totally see a situation where the cleaners put something away in a storage area, the facilities contact person never heard about it, and therefore had no answer for you.

      I’d tell building management the value of the item and let them know (politely) that if it isn’t on-site somewhere, you will need to get reimbursed for theft under their insurance policy. Let them do the work of chasing it down. They will be motivated to search thoroughly before going through the hassle of filing a claim.

    14. WellRed*

      I suspect it’s been moved to a closet or something. If it doesn’t turn up, Can you get one from a loan closet, goodwill or posting on a community forum?

    15. Not So NewReader*

      Rollators can get a little spendy. Maybe some kind hearted soul put it some place safe so it would not get bumped/damaged.

      1. Sylvan*

        I feel like a kind-hearted soul would put a walker where the walker-owner expects to find it, or leave a note in the walker’s place about where the walker has been moved. Not make them walk (!) all over the building to search for it.

          2. Bluephone*

            And it’s very possible they didn’t know who actually owned the rollator or where that person normally sat!

    16. Sylvan*

      That’s such bullshit. I’m sorry. I think you should start by calling or emailing people who work closest to the last place you saw your walker. Just ask if they saw anyone move it or heard about that area being cleaned. Maybe they can tell you that so-and-so cleaned out the area on such-and-such date. If that doesn’t work, I don’t think an all-facility email would be a bad idea.

    17. A Poster Has No Name*

      If your company is large (or even in small companies, never know), there is likely a process for contacting facilities or the landlords to get reimbursed for stuff that gets broken or stolen when there’s nobody in the office.

      We had one fairly memorable incident of someone on the cleaning crew swiping small stuff off of people’s desks, and I once had a pair of headphones broken (I think caught in a vacuum) and that was all reimbursed.

      1. Tired of Covid-and People*

        The poor cleaning crew always gets blamed for everything. They are not always the culprit. We don’t know the people in our office as well as we think we do. I have had amazing cleaning people in my office, since it was government they didn’t clean after hours so maybe that makes a difference. But unless there was security footage or other evidence, it isn’t fair to castigate cleaning people in this way.

    18. Tired of Covid-and People*

      Did you mark your name and contact info somewhere on your item? Not everyone may have known the rollator belonged to you. I agree with those who say send out a mass email and maybe a picture if you have it. An assumption may have been made that the item was abandoned. Good luck, but if you don’t get a response, unfortunately you may need to procure a new one. Medicare helps pay for these if you are of eligible.

    19. Tired of Covid-and People*

      Oh, when my mom died, I donated a walker and wheelchair to a nearby village health department. They sanitized them and loaned them to residents. It may be worth checking to see if your local health department does this if finances are a concern.

      1. Chaordic One*

        I’m sorry this has happened to you, OP, and I recommend sending an email to your coworkers as the others have suggested with the added recommendation that you ask people to forward it to anyone else who works in the building, because in my large office I certainly don’t know everyone and wouldn’t know who all to email.

        In my community the local Senior Citizen Center operates a lending closet where they loan out wheel chairs, walkers and crutches to residents, such as Tired has mentioned. They have a group of people who repair and maintain them. You might see if there is such an organization in your community, until you either find your walker or purchase a new one.

  2. overly invested friend?*

    Is there a productive way to point out the red flags in a close friend’s new job? My longtime best friend recently started his first office/”professional” job after previously doing shift work. The company he’s working for is an established subsidiary of a well-known corporation so I’m not worried it’s a start-up that’s suddenly going to collapse under him or anything like that. But pretty much everything he tells me about his new job makes me raise my eyebrows.

    This includes: using work he produced from the hiring process as a part of a project on their website, having him work for a month as a “try-out” before officially hiring him, promoting him to a “director” level position within two weeks of him starting, not having an HR department, not having any kind of onboarding process. Am I correct in assessing these as red flags? I’m not super far into my career but I’ve had more time at an office job than he has. For most people I would stay out of it but since it’s my absolute closest friend I can’t help but be worried on his behalf.

      1. overly invested friend?*

        When they published his work online from the hiring process without paying him, I pointed out that it was illegal and showed a lack of ethics from the company. He agreed with that, but it was a really long and miserable hiring process and he said he wanted to see if the company tried to screw him over one more time before he looked for other opportunities. Everything that’s popped up since then has been either neutral for him or exciting (getting a promotion).

        1. Workerbee*

          Job hunting can be so demoralizing. I hope he can still realize that being screwed over once is 100% one time too many, and that there is nothing accidental about this company being all kinds of shady, manipulative, and counting on poor sods like him to overlook or justify away unethical and illegal practices.

          1. Malika*

            I agree, this sounds like the frogs in slowly boiling water. You accept the first instance of shadyness and that starts the slow process of normalizing further shadyness.

        2. Aquawoman*

          Does the promotion come with money? Or just a title that makes him exempt instead of nonexempt and thus not eligible for OT pay?

            1. LunaLena*

              This reminds me of the Futurama episode that ended with a discussion of job titles –
              Prof. Hubert J. Farnsworth : I hereby promote you to executive delivery boy.
              Philip J. Fry : Executive?
              Hermes Conrad : [whispers to Leela] It’s a meaningless title, but it helps insecure people feel better about themselves.
              Philip J. Fry : [Matt Groening and David X. Cohen’s executive producer credits fade in] I feel better about myself!

          1. Natalie*

            It seems fairly straightforward? They’re not paying him, and it doesn’t sound like he signed over his rights to the work, so it isn’t theirs.

            Whether he has any recourse is a completely different question, of course.

        4. Cassidy*

          “When they published his work online from the hiring process without paying him, I pointed out that it was illegal…”

          —

          Not sure about that. I’m not a lwayer, but, from what I do know, it seems that if he agreed to creating a project as part of the interview process, and used the company’s resources to create the project, technically, the company owns the project, and are thus within legal rights to use it however way they see fit without paying him.

          If they ddidn’t let him know ahead of time that they would do that, it comes off as slimy and underhanded, but not illegal that I know of.

          1. fhqwhgads*

            Work done for an assessment as part of hiring is not supposed to be real usable work. Just a skills assessment. If it’s real work, real enough they could and would put it on their website, it’s not a skills assessment, it’s work. It’s illegal not to pay people for time they spend working for you.

            1. Cassidy*

              “Work done for an assessment as part of hiring is not supposed to be real usable work.”

              If you take a photo using my camera, I am free to use it however way I wish, because I own the photo viz. it originating from a resource I own. Doesn’t matter who takes the photo from my camera; I own the photo, regardless.

              As such, I think regarding an assessment as a project is misguided, in that it’d be nearly impossible to prove such intent in a court. So yeah, it’s a sleazy thing to do, but illegal? Which law(s), specifically, would an attorney point to as support for that premise?

              1. a lawyer*

                If I take a photo using your camera, I would own the photo, not you. Under U.S. copyright law, the person who takes the picture owns the copyright, not the person who owns the camera.

                The same would be true for a job applicant who produces work in the context of an interview. Even if the applicant uses the company’s resources, the applicant would own the copyright in the final product.

                After the applicant is hired, the situation changes, since an employee’s work belongs to the company under the “work for hire” doctrine.

                1. Cassidy*

                  Yes, a lwayer, I stand corrected on the camera example.

                  Curious: what is the difference between that example and the fact that universities own syllabi created by faculty?

                  Also, what is the law governing ownership of work created by an applicant during an interview? Is it also copyright law, and, if so, which part, exactly? I tried finding the information and haven’t had any luck.

                  Thank you in advance!

    2. Web Crawler*

      I’d have one serious conversation where you lay out the red flags and explain why they’re red flags- aka, working without pay is illegal, promoting him to director status when he doesn’t have the experience is setting him up to fail, etc. Grab some links from here and have them ready if he wants to read more.

      And then, say that you had to be honest with him because you care about him, but you support him 100% no matter what happens. Also, you trust him to do what’s best. And that if he wants, you’ll drop the subject completely. Then hold to that.

    3. Person from the Resume*

      I think you should share your concerns and warn him to be wary, but there’s not much else to do. He’s taken this job. You should continue pointing out unusual, toxic, red flag practices he encounters, but until it’s bothering/impacting him he may want to remain at the job especially at such a high level title (even if it’s unearned).

      I think there’s value in warning him, but he is probably not going to quit based on this.

      1. pancakes*

        He may be able to get retroactively paid for the month (!) he may have worked for them for free. It’s not clear from the comment whether he was paid for that time, but the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) requires workers to be paid the minimum wage, and on time. The commenters who are suggesting there’s nothing that can be done about that now because he already put in the hours are clearly not familiar with their rights as workers or the process for enforcing them. The statute of limitations on FLSA violations is two years, or three in the case of willful violations. It’s well worth having a look at the federal Department of Labor website rather than guessing!

        1. overly invested friend?*

          He did work for them for free for a month, you’re correct. This is valuable information so thank you! I’ll tuck this into my back pocket.

          1. AcademiaNut*

            He worked for free for a month?!? That’s well past red flag and into toxic sewage dump levels of dysfunction. That’s also extremely illegal – not slightly over the lines in interviewing practices, shaky understanding of employment law because they don’t have HR, but really bad. An employer who will do that will use him, abuse him, gaslight him, fire him if he stands up for himself, and then contest unemployment and try to sabotage his future job prospects. He needs to get out as fast as possible, and make a complaint with the local labour authorities for lost wages.

        2. Natalie*

          There may also be additional state or local enforcement options – my city, for example, has a wage theft ordinance that includes a city enforcement process.

          1. pancakes*

            Yes, good point.

            I did a quick search of AAM and it might be useful to read a Nov. 5, 2012 post titled, “my employer is docking everyone one day of pay.” It isn’t quite the same situation the friend is in, but gives some background info on the FSLA.

            Your friend may or may not have some recourse as to his work the company posted on its site, too, but I don’t want to generalize because there’s so much that can vary in terms of industry standards, the language the company used in asking him to submit the work, etc.

    4. Weekend Please*

      It depends. Was he paid for the “try-out” period? If so, that sounds more like probation which is pretty common. How work did he actually produce during the application? Unless it was unusually long and intense, he is likely expanding on something small he did during the interview process which isn’t really a red flag. If he is doing something like publishing articles written by all the applicants then that would be shady. The director title means different things at different companies so again, I wouldn’t take the title as a red flag.

      Given all that, instead of “pointing out the red flags” maybe you can ask him questions about the things that concern you and point out the differences from your experiences. That way you can either put your mind at ease or ensure he knows what things are unusual without sounding patronizing or alarmist.

      1. Weekend Please*

        I just saw your response above. The interview process and that they published his work without paying him does sound like a red flag. However, since he already knows that it was illegal and is on the look out for them doing other things to screw him over, I’m not sure what else you can do. He seems like he is making an informed choice to stay. Maybe you can suggest a low key job search so that he has a fallback for when they do more shady stuff.

      2. Malarkey01*

        I agree to ask more questions before assuming these are red flags. I work with a lot of our new hires, and I hear the probation period mislabeled as tryouts or not fully hired, etc. all the time and need to correct people that they’re still hired, just under different company review rules.

        On boarding is a patch work across companies in the best of times, during CoVid even good places are struggling with this. The HR thing could depend on the size or again a misunderstanding where they use the main company for HR and don’t have onsite HR which was explained weirdly (again maybe due to on boarding gaps).

        This could all add up to a big red flag, but I’d ask some questions first and then suggest he keep alert for other weird things. I definitely wouldn’t leave a job he’s otherwise excited about right now.

    5. cat lady*

      Now that he has the director title, I’d argue that he should stick it out if possible; it will be hard for him to apply to future director roles without the experience to back it up, and applying for sub-director roles will make employers wonder why he’s moving down the totem pole.

      1. overly invested friend?*

        It’s definitely the job title that concerns me the most. We graduated college 2 years ago so I feel like it’s a weird title jump. But I also work in a very old-fashioned workplace so I’m not sure how to gauge it.

        1. Reba*

          I would look askance at that title as well, but I also know that some industries are kind of profligate with titles (thinking of the ubiquitous Vice Presidents in banking).

        2. Tech and Roses*

          The title is definitely the biggest red flag for me too. I had a friend who was promoted to a “director” title very quickly, early in his career, and without any of the typical experience needed (he was good at what he did, but completely unready to be a director). His responsibilities took a MAJOR leap that basically set him up to fail, like completely revamping the onboarding process when he had never onboarded anyone before. It ended up being a huge mess – first they modified the duties of the role to try to fit him, leading to a ton of confusion for him and his reports, and then they reversed course and said he needed to rise to the original expectations or think about leaving, but offered no support or suggestions on trainings/education even when he asked outright. With all the confusion, parts of a very important project got missed, and no one was sure who was actually responsible for it. He ended up resigning out of sheer frustration with the management’s constantly changing expectations. I think he leaves that job off his resume, since he was only there about two months.

        3. JR*

          I don’t think titles matter on their own so much as in the context of the org chart. I worked at a company where director was one rung up from entry level, so most people in that role had maybe 2-3 years experience.

      2. 'Tis Me*

        “It was a small subsidiary of larger company, where the title didn’t include any direct reports, for instance, and I’m aware that in a larger organisation, a subdirector role will actually most likely be a step up in terms of responsibilities.”

        Also, my official job when I was on my university placement year was “Technical Support Executive” – some places just go in for fancy-sounding titles.

        1. cat lady*

          Yes, language like this in the cover letter, definitely, and also something accurately describing the level of responsibility on the resume (even though accomplishments over description is usually preferred)

      3. Natalie*

        I don’t think it really matters if he stays – it doesn’t sound like he’ll actually get director level work experience, so staying just means explaining why he has several years of the title but no experience, instead of a couple of months.

    6. BRR*

      Since he’s your absolute closest friend, I think you can probably be blunt about it. “Hey BTW these things are not normal and I wanted to point them out.” Maybe send him Alison’s article on “how bad jobs warp your sense of what’s normal.” I would probably frame it as pointing it out so he can protect himself from thinking this is how things are usually done and this is how he should do things.

    7. HR Exec Popping In*

      Yes, they are red flags. But that does not necessarily mean your friend should leave the company. If the company is part of a larger corporation I would suspect that this division/company is more of a small start-up or a small business that was fairly recently acquired. Mostly likely the parent company has rules about this stuff but they don’t have full integration with this business unit. That might change over time and the parent could get more involved or they might just keep it separate. Either way, the parent company should have some sort of anonymous compliance issue reporting mechanism (hotline, website, etc.) that your friend could use if he continues to see compliance related issues.

      As a side note, the Director level title isn’t really an issue. Different companies use different titling conventions. Heck, in banking anyone in the equivalent of a manager level job is called a VP.

    8. Aquawoman*

      Alison would be better at the technical stuff here than I am but these all sound potentially like ways to try and skirt labor laws. E.g., for the first try-out month, is he a contractor? And if so, does he realize that there are potentially tax implications for him of that? Also, it seems like a lot of times, people who come into that situation find that they’re not officially hired for a long time. And I mentioned above that the title might be a way of trying to make him exempt when he should be nonexempt. Every single one of these seems like a way to try to either stiff him $$ or avoid costs of employment for themselves.

    9. CatWoman*

      “The company he’s working for is an established subsidiary of a well-known corporation ”

      If this is the case, how do they not have an HR department?

  3. esemess*

    I’m working on a project to empower first-time managers on how to grow in their leadership ability/skills and foster an equitable, transparent team.

    I’d love to hear tips/best practices/resources that have helped you and/or your organization with these themes. Thanks!

    1. NotAnotherManager!*

      My office does a series of lunchtime workshops for new managers that covers effective delegation, hiring/team building, providing and receiving constructive feedback, compliance with ADA/FLSA/other employment laws, the annual evaluation process, organization culture/customer service expectations of the industry, etc. DEI themes are woven across these as well, particularly in hiring/team building, feedback, and evaluation. We also pair new managers with experienced ones (with a strong track record and willingness to give their time) in mentoring relationships. It’s been pretty well-received and tends to mix information with sharing of personal experiences, hypothetical scenarios, and role-playing of difficult situations rather than being straight lecture-style.

    3. Shark Whisperer*

      I highly recommend the book “Feedback Revolution.” I knew feedback was important as a new manager, but I didn’t realize that I didn’t really know what effective feedback looked like until I read that book.

      1. esemess*

        I put this book on hold at my library earlier this week. I’m thrilled to hear that it was useful! :)

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      So, from the opposite side – I just last week started in a six month training program in my org to develop future leaders and managers, and had a debrief about the first seminar with my manager this morning. Something that she and I were both surprised hadn’t come up early was the distinction between leadership and management, because the seminar used the terms almost interchangeably and didn’t really address the differences and similarities between the two. (I included that in the post-session feedback too.) It might be more important in our situation, because this program is only open to people who aren’t in formal management roles yet so we have some level of “ways you can take leadership initiative without having the management chops to bring to bear”, but I’ve had some bad managers who thought they were leaders and were really just bossing people around because they could. So I would make sure you at least include some level of discussion to that effect. :)

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          For me, at least, the quick and dirty distinction is

          Management: “Ok, everyone, go that way!”
          Leadership: “Ok, everyone, let’s go that way!”

          and there’s overlap for sure, and places where one is needed more than the other, but the Venn diagram is not a perfect circle :)

    5. Madeleine Matilda*

      One thing we did when we had a group of new supervisors was to pair them with an experienced supervisors to serve as a mentor and sounding board. My organization is really outstanding at training and offered a good new supervisors training as well as other supervisor training throughout one’s career.

    6. LTL*

      I don’t have any specific tips but wanted to chime in to say, definitely include something about diversity and inclusion.

  4. Should I apply*

    Has anyone tried Ramit Sethi’s “Find your dream job” program? He was on a podcast that I listen to regularly and he talked a good enough game, specifically about how to interview, that I decided to check out his website. The website is very slick, but it seems like one big ‘give me all your money’ lure.

    First there was a quiz, that based on a couple simple questions assured me that I could be making 20% more than I make today. Of course I had to give my email to get the results. Then that leads to the, ” I offer this program that will make it happen” but wait, its not available yet.. you have to sign up on a waiting list. The program is supposed to start next week, and there hasn’t actually been any mention of price yet. There have been teaser emails about what will be covered in the program. At this point I am mostly curious and what the cost will actually end up being.

    This was my favorite excerpt from the email “Instead of submitting your resume into the Black Hole of Doom, your resume will be “automatically funneled in” through your new personal contacts. In many cases, you’ll already know the hiring manager, instantly separating you from other candidates! ”

    So have you tried this program or something like it? What are your thoughts?

        1. Autumnheart*

          Imagine being a hiring manager, and suddenly finding yourself overwhelmed with a kajillion emails from candidates who think they have an “in”, because you wound up on this list somehow. No thanks.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      I remember another expert whose method to getting any job was to just know every executive in the world. “Just network your way into a job!” “No one gets a job through the application process!”

    5. Rayray*

      I came across many people like this while I was job hunting. Many people offering newsletters, webinars,” master classes” etc.

      I think some of them may offer legitimate advice, but I don’t believe any of them are offering anything you won’t be able to find for free elsewhere. There’s a lot of great information available.

      I can name probably a dozen LinkedIn “influencers” who do this exact thing, saying things like “unlock your potential!” “90% of people who attend my webinar for a job offer on two weeks”. It just feels like a sales pitch to me. I don’t really trust these people.

      1. should i apply?*

        I completely agree. At this point I am mostly just reading the emails out of curiosity / entertainment value. I’m not planning on giving him any money.

    6. voluptuousfire*

      No, but it sounds like a pickup artist scheme. “Follow me and I can help you get the girl of your dreams!”

    7. Sadie*

      I did this, maybe 8 years ago! It was a bit scammy and also a bit helpful. Like AAM it helped me to think about my career and “jobs” in a different way. The idea that you shouldn’t make a resume until you’ve looked at the jobs out there, and then had some informational interviews, was a completely new concept to me then in my late 20s working in academia. I didn’t know about the “jobs” tab of linkedin until I joined the Ramit Sethi thing. I don’t think you should pay him but also you shouldn’t feel stupid if you do end up paying.

    8. Kiitemso*

      I would stay away from these kinds of programs. The success gurus you find online find success only one way: by selling their programs, seminars, e-books. They hustle, that’s about the extent of their wisdom. It is best to maintain healthy skepticism toward all of them.

    9. Maggie*

      Sounds like a gigantic waste of money and possibly an outright scam. Its going to introduce you to specific hiring managers in your area? Just sounds like a bunch of MLM mumbo jumbo or whatever

    10. a-person*

      Ramit himself says that he doesn’t teach anything you can’t find out for yourself online. His point is that he does all the work of collecting, validating, structuring, and teaching the info. I read his book “I will teach you to be Rich” and bought this course when I was young and new to the working world. It contained a lot of info I didn’t know, and my now-husband used the advice to get his first career job. I used his advice to negotiate raises for myself. It was about 2k at the time, and I think I’ve gotten more than 2k of value from it.

      How valuable it is really depends on what you already know. All my family are union workers so they have no advice to offer me about corporate white collar office jobs.

      1. Quinalla*

        Yes, I would agree with this. I’ve read a lot of his free stuff and he has some good advice which helped me negotiate my salary at my current job. I never signed up for his classes, but I have done an occasional online course from folks similar and sometimes they were valuable, sometimes mediocre. I’d just read his free stuff, you’ll probably get plenty from that!

      2. a-person*

        > This was my favorite excerpt from the email “Instead of submitting your resume into the Black Hole of Doom, your resume will be “automatically funneled in” through your new personal contacts. In many cases, you’ll already know the hiring manager, instantly separating you from other candidates! ”

        I want to explain this a bit. Ramit recommends networking and developing relationships with people in your industry so that when companies are hiring the people who work there already know you. In my own personal experience, companies will ask their own employees if they have anyone to recommend for a role before even posting the job.

        1. gbca*

          I have to say this aligns with my personal experience. The last time I was job hunting (about 2 years ago), I kept a spreadsheet of all the jobs I applied for (47), and noted how I applied and whether I had a referral. Overall, I got at least a phone screen from 21% of companies I applied to (10), but got a phone screen from 70% out of the 10 jobs I applied to through a referral. I went to in-person interviews at 4 companies, and all 4 were ones where I had a referral.

          And here’s the thing. Mostly these were not solid referrals. One was through my old boss so that was a good one, but one in-person interview was at a company my husband had previously applied for, and did not get the job (in a totally different function). When I saw the job posted, he emailed the recruiter with my resume. The job I ultimately got? I met a woman at a networking event (that I REALLY did not want to go to), and she said to look at her company’s website for jobs and she’d be happy to put in a referral. It happens they had one that was a perfect fit, she sent my resume to the hiring manager, and the rest is history. She is not in my function and did not know the hiring manager either. You just need ANY kind of connection to get your resume looked at.

          1. gbca*

            OK I actually didn’t read closely enough before I responded. I think making connections at a specific company who may be hiring is challenging, but the broader your network is, the more you have a chance of having a connection of a connection somewhere. It’s why I only turn down LinkedIn requests that are blatant sales pitches.

            1. a-person*

              I feel like both your responses go to the heart of what I was trying to say with my paltry two sentences. Thanks for elaborating!

    12. RagingADHD*

      I followed his stuff for a while but never bought a program. His first book/infoproduct was “I Can Teach You To Be Rich.” He’s part of an ecosystem of online entrepreneurs whose business model is building and selling courses that teach something people desperately want to know — like how to land your dream job.

      There is some useful content in the free emails and so forth, but it’s not applicable to every industry or every job. There’s a big emphasis on going outside normal channels and impressing people with your “gumption,” as Alison puts it.

      Overall, I’d say much of the advice was more applicable to freelancers and vendors trying to land contracts, rather than applicants for existing FT jobs.

      1. DG*

        His book is also super sexists and really embodies the worst parts of “bro” culture. While I’m sure he’s helped lots of people be rich, I was really turned off by him in just a couple of chapters.

    13. pbnj*

      I heard him on a podcast recently (not sure if it is the same one you listened to, I don’t recall much being discussed about interviewing), and it was pretty apparent to me that he had never worked in corporate America. I told my husband about some of the things he said and we both literally LOL’d. So even if it’s not a scam, I would tread cautiously since I don’t think he has relevant experience for folks who work traditional jobs.

      1. gbca*

        I agree. I followed him a lot in his early days for his personal finance advice (his book is solid – definitely worth the $10!) I dropped off when he ventured more into the entrepreneurial stuff, but I check out something of his every so often. He doesn’t have corporate experience (or if he does it’s very minimal), and is heavily on the entrepreneurial side. I had an employee come to me with a pitch for a raise that sounded like something Ramit would come up with, and it just felt incredibly out of touch with how things are done at a big corporation. It didn’t help that the guy was not a good performer either.

    15. Is it tea time yet?*

      Last fall, I participated in a “career design” fellowship offered from a small company via my alumni association. It wasn’t very expensive (I think $200 at full price?). I figured it was worth a try, even if it was only good for networking with other alumni (on-line) and getting feedback from folks who have different perspectives. They weren’t promising a lot of pie-in-the-sky results, just to give you the tools and skills to figure things out. A lot of the homework was stuff you could find on-line, but the main value was in talking with and bouncing ideas off the teams we were put in. We were all looking to change careers or make changes within our type of work, and it was very supportive. Another nice thing was having everything organized and having structure. I still have access to all the worksheets and information, as well as a forum to keep in touch with everyone from the program. I have a much better idea of what I want my career to look like, so it’s been helpful.

  5. Camellia*

    So last week my company told us that they are eliminating our role. We can interview for some specified other roles this week, and next week they will tell us if we were selected for one of the roles for which we interviewed.

    For a fake example, say they no longer want the role of *dentist*. We can interview for the role of *oral surgeon*, *dental hygienist*, *accountant*, or *insurance company liaison*.

    I elected to interview for *oral surgeon* because maybe I can keep doing dentist-type stuff (“Sorry, person-who-asked, I don’t know who will do fillings and crowns when you no longer have dentists in this office.) and maybe somehow learn how to do surgeon-type stuff also? And they haven’t said they are going to STOP doing fillings and crowns, they just haven’t addressed WHO will do them; I’m sure the existing oral surgeons would be THRILLED to pick up that work. I also picked *dental hygienist* because at least it’s still tooth-related and maybe it will
    be restful and not too boring. I didn’t pick the other two because…I’m a dentist?

    If I get selected for oral surgeon I will see how it goes. If I get selected for hygienist I will probably take a breath, collect myself, then start a job search. If I’m selected for neither then of course it is full speed ahead on a job search. Problem is, I’m close to retirement and really hoped this would be the last company I worked for because it really is a great company with great benefits and I’ve enjoyed my 12 years here. And in my industry, ageism can be a thing. Oh, btw, great company to WORK for (they immediately pivoted last March and all of us have been working from home since then, with no immediate plans to do otherwise) but the severance package sucks – only 4 weeks of pay, no matter how many years (30? 40? yup, a couple of us) you’ve been here. Anyway, please wish me luck.

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Honestly, start job searching regardless. Can’t hurt, and you might appreciate it later.

    4. TKR*

      I would start your job search now, and not wait! That way if you do end up as a hygienist, you’ll be ahead of where you need to be.
      Good luck either way!

    5. 'Tis Me*

      Good luck! The “start searching now regardless” advice is good – worst case scenario, you have your resume updated, have had a chance to assess the market, etc.

      What happens with salaries? I’m pretty sure that following restructure some people are sometimes allowed to take an effective demotion for the same pay (so being a hygeienist instead of a dentist, but still on dentist pay)?

      1. Camellia*

        Resume is updated because we had to submit one for the interviews we just had. They said that they will try very hard not to reduce our pay but yes, if we were selected for something that is such a low pay band that our current salary is not even within the pay range, then there would have to be some adjustment. But as long as our current salary is within the pay range of the band, then no reduction.

        Since the time frame is so tight I’ve just been focused on getting resume up to date and preparing for my two interviews, the last of which just occurred. I haven’t had the brain power to ramp up an external search yet. I’ll see how next week goes.

  6. Leveling Up*

    I’m in a low-tech technical writing job, trying to jump to a high-tech technical writing job (preferably software). I completed an MS in comp-sci in 2019.

    While I did well in school, I can’t use what I learned in my current job, so it quickly faded from my brain. Seeing local job descriptions during my search has me in despair. People expect full stack dev skills for technical writers these days.

    Keeping my skills fresh means coding on my own time. I don’t understand how to work 10 hours a day, do personal tech projects to stay current, and job search on top of that. There aren’t enough hours in a day. I’m completely exhausted, but taking breaks means I stagnate, and have to run that much harder to catch up again.

    How do you “level up” your career without losing your mind?

    1. Person from the Resume*

      You don’t have to meet 100% of the “requirements” to apply for a job.

      I’d also believe that a Comp Sci degree means you did learn how to code, that you could refresh your memory for those tools you used in school, and learn new ones as needed.

    2. HeyAnonyNony*

      This isn’t a tip, but I hope it’s helpful perspective. I’m working on a CS-related degree while working full time. The only year I didn’t feel burnt out was when my partner took a year between degrees. He was doing some “leveling up” of his own during that time, but he did most of the housework and family admin.
      He’s back in a degree program full time and its just hard. We’ve spent more money on “heat and eat” type food. I’m trying to find projects related to my other interests, but it remains hard to find the energy.

    3. tejanojim*

      I would say just apply anyway. Alison talks about how inflated a lot of job descriptions have gotten. Whatever the description, they still need to choose the best candidate from a finite pool of real applicants. Just go for it, you have nothing to lose!

    4. Weekend Please*

      If you want to switch fields, how important are the personal tech projects? Can you replace that with a coding refresh? You are right that trying to do everything is unsustainable. Maybe you can take a few days off to do an intense coding refresh once you start getting interviews?

    5. Kiwiii*

      I wonder if some roles exist between the two — where you can incorporate some of your tech knowledge, but not at the “full stack dev skills” spot you’re reading about. It might also be worth another glance to confirm if those are wish list qualifications or actually required.

    6. TKR*

      My experience with technical writing has been that the way to make the move from an associate technical writer to a senior technical writer is through experience. As in, working for a few years.
      Not all technical writer jobs require dev skills, but maybe when you’re coming from a comp-sci perspective those are the ones that you’re finding. (FWIW, I have a technical writing degree, but I know several engineers-turned-writers that get a certification like the CPTC to help improve their writing skills)
      I guess overall, I’m not sure what your goal is – go from your current job where you’re not applying your skills to a different position where you would apply those skills? If that’s the case I think previous experience and willingness to ramp up the first few months would be enough. It is hard to tell what you mean when you’re talking about the ” jump to a high-tech technical writing job”
      If your goal is to gain new skills outside of your current role – then I would either ask your current company about professional development opportunities, or accept that you need to do the work outside of your 9-5.

      Really though, I think that you can adjust your standards of how proficient you need to be in order to qualify for a position. I applied for a new position that uses a software I’ve never used. So I downloaded the free trial and have been watching videos to learn the lay of the land.

    7. EMP*

      This is perspective from someone in software but who’s never worked with a technical writer, so, grain of salt but:
      – you definitely don’t need expertise or even experience in everything the job req asks for.
      – if there are certain frameworks or languages that you are most familiar with or see the most often in job reqs, brush up on those as you can but doing some sample interview/coding questions the day/week before you interview can be enough (depends on how you interview and what your field tends to ask)
      – if you have a portfolio you can point to with concrete examples that can be huge without requiring you to /constantly/ do that work. Just do it once and throw it up on a personal website. Classroom projects can be enough for this depending on what they were (e.g. a simple but complete phone app)

    8. Susan Calvin*

      I’m gonna skip straight over the point where consistently working 10 hours every day, every week is an issue, since that’s presumably part of your reason for searching… so moving on, speaking to software specifically, I’d be a bit dubious about those posting – many people really really tend to overestimate their capabilities when it comes to coding, so sometimes the requirements are inflated to compensate for that (and, of course, sometimes people who hire are just not very good at hiring).

      On the other hand, if I’m totally off base and all these jobs really need you to be a competent developer as well, my impression has been that if the personal projects register as “work” rather than “leisure” you’re already off to a bad start. Maybe you just haven’t picked the right project, maybe I’m projecting (took me a bit to admit I was never going to be a dev), so take that with a grain of salt – but my recommendation, if that is feasible at all, would be to prioritize those personal project over active job searching for a while. Build a little GitHub portfolio, join a hackathon or something similar, maybe get a feel for what is out there as possible niches and specializations, and go from there.

      Either way, good luck!

      1. EMP*

        Gotta say I have always hated the perception in tech that you should enjoy it as a hobby as well as a job. There are so few fields that expect this (imagine asking a project manager what projects they manage in their spare time? Or a marketer, or machinist). I don’t do any programming on my off time! Yes, it has hindered my job search but once I got that first job my work spoke for itself and it stopped being an issue.

        That said: if you’re trying to switch fields it can definitely help to have some of those personal projects, even if they are (or feel like) work. If you don’t, be prepared to have a great resume and be ready to convince hiring managers you will be enthusiastic about the work you /are/ paid to do.

        1. Susan Calvin*

          Honestly, that’s fair. On reflection, I also don’t really want to perpetuate the idea that you need to live and breathe software development (and preferably have no other hobbies or life outside work, looking at you, gaming industry) – but I do think that even if you don’t keep it up as a long term hobby, it’s helpful to create something like a “proof of concept” for yourself that you actually do enjoy the work, as much as you can replicate it in a private context, before committing to pursuing a particular career. The fact that for software you can get a lot closer than for many other jobs is, as they say, a feature, not a bug :)

        2. TechWorker*

          +100

          I am now moving more into software management so job descriptions look less ridiculous but when I was job hunting a few years ago everyone seemed to want to hire people who’ve been programming in their bedroom every day since they were 12. I like my job – I do not want to do the same thing as a hobby!

        3. Schmitt*

          Hard agree. I have had projects outside of work, it’s good to have those as talking points, but also times where I have not. At the moment in my field it’s common to ask for a project example to spec as part of the process anyway.

      2. Unfettered scientist*

        You mention people often overestimate their coding ability. I worry about this myself especially since a lot of my skills are really scientific domain specific. How would you recommend someone objectively assess their skills?

        1. Susan Calvin*

          Speaking as someone who had some unpleasant realizations during the practical portion of an interview process (or two), I can’t say I have The Answer to that… but if you can find samples for the kind of exercise you’re likely to encounter in the kind of job you’re aiming at (ideally with some frame of reference for time investment) you can probably get some idea. Also, contributing on StackOverflow can be both really good (helping people who know even less than you is always nice) and really bad (there’s always someone who has forgotten more about a topic than you’ve ever learned) for your ego, so proceed with caution.

          Curious to hear if anyone else has better ideas!

        2. Unfettered scientist*

          To be more specific, I think that in general with programming there are various general skill levels/bands, from beginner to intermediate to advanced to expert (sometimes this is ‘per language’). I feel like I have a good sense of what a beginner is like (having seen them in classes I TA). I think I’m probably intermediate with several languages, but ‘intermediate’ feels like a vast ocean and I have no clue how I know when I’d be considered more advanced.

        3. TechWorker*

          To be honest I think the key is being able to talk about things in a way that shows your level of understanding (and/or prep for practical coding interviews if that’s a thing for the jobs you’re applying for). I think putting ‘python – intermediate, C++ – basic’ on your CV is 100% pointless because it just doesn’t mean anything. Better to point to actual projects and be able to talk about them in depth.

          1. Unfettered scientist*

            That’s a great point; demonstrating those skills are what’s critical. I do have that type of “python – intermediate” language on my CV because often I’m applying to jobs where they prefer knowledge of that language but I’ve never actually used it in my work (more academic and personal projects) and I’m unsure any of that experience is actually worth taking up space on my resume. I do include specific examples of other projects done in other languages in my work experience section, but there’s limited space and I do have to balance space devoted to programming with other scientific skills.

            1. Unfettered scientist*

              For the types of jobs I’m applying for, I see this kind of appropriate for a skills/technical section. In the same way I might list specific scientific software I’ve used before, I also list programming languages and general experience level with them. Where possible, I list specific achievements/projects using those skills but I do think a technical skills section can be useful to save some space.

    9. Aquawoman*

      Is it possible to work less than 10 hours a day by challenging deadlines or just not doing the 3rd edit or whatever? Can you brush up the comp sci by doing 1 -2 hours a day over the weekend or take a short vacation? Also, start applying and see what happens–is that a job “requirement” or wishful thinking (do tech writers get paid more than coders or vice versa? if coders get paid more, then you know that requirement is unrealistic).

      Good luck!

    10. Firecat*

      Not sure if this makes you feel better or not, but I was recently hired at a healthcare facility. The job description wanted someone who had data science, tableau, and SQL skills. MSc preferred. I was worried I wouldn’t get the job because, even though I know SQL, I had only used Power BI and I don’t have a graduate degree.

      Well I got the job and … literally most of my day to day is answering emails and filling out lines from forms into excel. That’s it. Most of the “required skills” I use rarely or not at all.

      Apply, apply, apply.

    11. Nesprin*

      For tech writing, doing documentation for an open source project is one of the most valuable demonstrations of skills that I can imagine.

  7. Kat*

    My work-study employee asked me to write her a letter of recommendation for a scholarship she is applying for. She is awesome and I want to write her the strongest recommendation that I can but I’ve never done one of these before. Anyone have advice or resources? The scholarship criteria is not really related to the work she does for me but I know she has deep experience in those areas as well. I assume she’s asked for other letters that speak to that so i was thinking of focusing on how she demonstrates the mission and values of our organization. But I’m getting stuck on how to even start.

    1. Just Here for the Cake*

      Defiantly ask her if there is anything specific that she wants you to include, such as specific parts of the job she completed, things that are more connected to the scholarship, ect. My advisors did this in college, and it honestly made for better letters!

    2. StudentLife4Life*

      Fellow work-study supervisor here! I write several scholarship recommendation letters every year for my students. I think you’re on the right path. I find writing a recommendation is similar to a cover letter, so much of the advice on here for cover letters probably applies. The main difference is you’re talking about someone else, not yourself.

      The best advice I can give you is to be specific with your examples, rather than making general statements about the student’s characteristics. I find a small number of demonstrative examples is more impressive than a list of skills. The first example below, though a bit wordy, is more appealing than the second.
      1. “Sarah took creative lead on (project), coming up with the design and following through on the logistics. She coordinated a team of 3 other students to complete the project. Her commitment to (value/mission/vision) is evident in the way she did xyz.”
      2. “Sarah is very creative and has leadership potential. She is responsible and thorough.”

      If you can tie you examples into some of the qualities listed on the scholarship application, great! If not, though, I agree that emphasizing specific ways she demonstrates commitment to your org is a good way to structure your letter.

    3. Artemesia*

      Since you can’t speak for her expertise in the field she applies to, speak to her strength in the work she did with you. Was she among the top 5% student employees you have had or the best one you have had? If so say so. Think about examples of initiative, follow through, quality of work and be fairly specific about those qualities. I have had tons of interns, work studies, RAs over decades and one or two were spectacular and many just had their thermostat for quality work set low — The key is to make clear that this person is outstanding and does work you can count on without micromanaging. She will have other evidence of her field expertise but you can testify to her work ethic, competence, follow through and commitment to high quality product as well as her personal qualities e.g. teamwork, easy to work with, takes direction well.

    4. SpEd Teacher*

      The idea of “show, don’t tell” I think is really important here. Don’t just say that she is a self starter. Say, “Without needed to be asked she noticed that x needed to be done and did y to address it.” Give specific examples.

      I have always stuck to a very standard, middle school level, 5 paragraph essay with an introduction, a thesis statement (I recommend Jane to to receive this scholarship because she is x, y, and z.), then three paragraphs explaining x, and y, and z using examples, and then a conclusion.

    5. Tessera Member 042*

      When I get requests for recommendation letters, I ask the student to send me 3 things: the description of the scholarship/program/job they are applying for, a copy of their resume (so I can see what else they do beyond my class), and a paragraph about why they are applying to said scholarship/program/job.

      Then I write the rec letter very similarly to a cover letter:
      Intro: how I know the student, what they are applying for, and my “thesis” about why they will do well in that position
      Body: give specific examples of the skills the student has shown in my class they can apply to the position (based on the description), and show how other aspects of their lives demonstrate their interest in the position (using the resume & paragraph)
      Conclusion: reiterate the reasons for my support, add contact info

      Also, think about what unique examples you can supply that her other recommenders might not (especially if they are only instructors), such as ability to follow directions, pick up new skills, and professional behaviors (punctuality, etc.).

      Good luck!

    6. Nesprin*

      Should be ~2 pages, use her formal title (I am writing to recommend Ms Intern for scholarship), speak to her accomplishments that you’ve observed (in the 1 year i’ve over seen her work, she has completely changed how we do X, contributed to project Y at A level of independence), compare her to similar students (i.e. best among 300 I’ve mentored, as demonstrated by her achievements A, B and C) and avoid excessively feminized feeling words like compassionate, helpful etc (i.e. women are often pigenholed into X is the nicest intern I’ve had and she really always wants to help, vs. men who are described as brilliant/accomplished/talented- the latter plays far better). The worst possible letter is one that is short, vague and relates to feelings vs. accomplishments. (i.e. X was my student. They received a decent grade in my class and were always helpful and friendly)

      I usually ask my recomendees for their resume and a cheat sheet- what did you do that you want me to emphasize, and I usually let mine read theirs- because if I’m writing a letter for a person, I think they’re great.

    7. Phoenix from the ashes*

      I asked my supervisor for a letter of recommendation and he got me to write it for him, lol. Of course, he may have totally rewritten it – don’t remember if I saw the finished letter but it worked and I was admitted to the programme I was applying for – but it was a smart move on his part to save his own time.

  8. Huckleberry*

    I was the unofficial Excel expert in my old position, and I’ve now transferred to another position in a different department. I learned Excel on my own on my own time. Is it my responsibility to train my replacement on Excel, or can it be reasonably expected for them to learn it on their own?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      If you created specialized workbooks (macros, etc), then I think it’s reasonable for you to leave some documentation behind on those. Otherwise, I’d say it’s on the new person to get up to speed on excel if their skills are lacking.

      1. Beatrice*

        And it’s your manager’s responsibility to hire someone with an appropriate knowledge level in Excel, if that’s something that they want your replacement to do or it’s absolutely necessary for the job. You should flag it for your manager and make sure they’re aware of the level of Excel you’re using for your job now and what for, if you think they might not know.

        As far as your unofficial Excel support within your department, your boss may not expect your replacement to fill that particular gap. They may want another member of your department to pick that up, or use a resource from another team, or just try to do without it and see what happens. I left a job a couple of years ago where I was the unofficial VBA expert. I documented my macros thoroughly and and at least documented my edits in the existing ones I’d only tweaked, but my replacement had almost no macro editing experience. My then-boss decided to do without it and in the one-off cases where they needed help with VBA, there was someone in IT who could unofficially help, they just had to wait for him to be available, which sometimes took weeks. They decided to be ok with that level of support.

    2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I think it’s reasonable to train them on the specific Excel functions that you use for your previous position but you don’t have to train them on the comprehensive use of Excel.

      1. Weekend Please*

        You can always send them a link to the resources you used to learn excel. What they do from there is up to them.

    3. Massive Dynamic*

      It all depends on what your replacement is expected to do in Excel. I know more than most users and when I’ve trained folks to take over specific roles of mine over the years, I usually tailored the training to their level of knowledge, with an emphasis on exactly what they need to know in excel to keep any specific files that I’ve built running properly. If the role you’re leaving is heavy in Excel, then whoever the hiring manager is should have done their due diligence in figuring out the new hire’s competency with Excel and your training will be filling in specific details for the role.

    4. MMMMmmmmmmmMMM*

      I think it really depends on how much of an excel expert you are. If you’re doing truly complicated things (advanced stats, etc.), then yeah, maybe you should train your replacement. If its basic stuff that is easily google-able, then no.

      For example, I’m considered the “excel expert” where I work, but all the stuff I’ve done I’ve learned from google.

    5. Person from the Resume*

      Unofficial Excel expert doesn’t sound like it was tied to your role, just something you stumbled into. I don’t think you have to train your replacement to the level of Excel skills you had unless it’s specific to a work task. Since it was “unofficial” someone else or your replacement may need to step into that role for your old department.

    6. AndersonDarling*

      It’s one thing to train someone on their job duties, but you can’t be expected to teach someone a skill before you move out of your role. And there are tons of free videos and, of course, google. If they seem to be having troubles, then I’d help them with some of the excel terminology so they know how to phrase a google search to find the right results.

    7. Kat*

      I’ve been in a similar position and I would say probably not. Hopefully your employer sought out a replacement with Excel skills but even if they didn’t, a reasonably resourceful person should be able to figure out most stuff with some googling. You show your replacement what you do and let them know that they’ll need know how to do x y and z in excel. I would be nice to pass along any resources or tips that you’ve collected (I had a big document full of complicated formulas that I could easily modify for different needs, links to useful how-to sites, etc.).

    8. saffie_girl*

      An employer can always request that you train co-workers, but as someone who has been in a similar situation (really good at software, but self taught), teaching is a totally different skill from doing. I have often taken the path of “I am happy to assist with specific questions, but teaching skills are just not in my wheelhouse. Perhaps you/they need a formal course?” There are so many resources available (and often for low or no cost), and those people are experts at it.

      Also, when people ask me to troubleshoot or write their documents/do the work for them, I tend to fall back on either “sorry, I’m swamped, but is there a specific thing you were unable to get google to help with?” or “There are so many ways to do the same thing in excel, and my way may not work for you, so you may have more success doing it in the way your brain works”

    9. Octopus*

      Are you being asked by your manager to do this training? If so, you basically have to, but you can definitely ask that it be considered part of your workload so you’re not expected to carve time out of your schedule in your new position without their support. If it’s something the person in the new position is asking for, you could ask your manager if they want you to allocate some of your time to training them. I think this would be a reasonable and good-will building task if you can make time for it/your manager is supportive of including it as your workload.

    10. JHB*

      In general, no. But you should convey the importance of beefing up those skills and perhaps list some resources you found helpful. Also, if there were specific functions/features you found especially useful – you might point those out as priority. For example, in my speadsheets, I use all the variations of IF statements and identifying duplicates with Conditional Formatting saves huge amounts of time. I’d be sure to at least share that with someone taking on my work.

      1. Mr. Shark*

        I agree with this. If the new employee is expected to maintain previously created spreadsheets, then it’s reasonable to at least let her know which functions that are used (vlookups, pivot tables, specific formulas, etc.) and you could go over one or two of them if they are just specific items. If it’s a larger training for a lot of different functions, then I would be referring to her to websites or other resources to investigate that herself.

    11. LKW*

      I agree with the others, if learning Excel was specific to key files/reports then it would be beneficial to train the new person, or provide written directions on what is needed, how to do it, and the purpose it serves. If it was just answering “how do I …” questions, then you can simply advise them that they’ll likely expand their Excel skill set and may want to bookmark some useful How To sites.

    12. WellRed*

      As someone currently struggling to figure out what should be a reasonably simple task in excel (which I barely use, my job doesn’t require it), I think it would be a kindness to go over the basics of what they need for the job, but to learn excel more fully, they should do that on their own. Be available for questions. However, I admit to being irritated that none of the people who regularly use the program know how to do perform the function I need, and my boss’s response to my asking about training resources was to call training “Magical” I may be biased. (I did tell her my request wasn’t unreasonable in a company our size).

    13. Cassidy*

      I wouldn’t worry about at all unless you’re tasked with training. If expected to train, I’d keep the training focused on the role of Excel within the specific job and not, as someone upward mentioned, the entirety of Excel itself.

    14. MissDisplaced*

      Only if it is something very specific in Excel for your company. And that you can probably document or leave notes about. Will there still be some questions? Sure. It would be normal for the new person to ask which spreadsheets go with which project, where things are on the server, and basic questions about how you do things “here.”

  9. Middle Manager*

    In a recent leadership meeting, another supervisor was talking about a member of their staff trying to get work done by a deadline and that to do so, the staff person would be taking their laptop to the hospital with them to work on the project post minor surgery. Both the supervisor and their manager’s attitude was, if it’s their choice it’s fine. Even though it wasn’t in my chain of command and it felt pretty uncomfortable, I spoke up and asked if having people working from a hospital was really a good idea (even if the person is choosing it) and that I didn’t think it was because it is contributing to an already pretty workaholic culture and other staff might feel pressured to follow suit. I was kind of stunned that I had to say it and now I feel like maybe my own norms of work have been really warped by our culture. Am I crazy? Or is it just basic bounds of reason to not have staff working from the hospital as a groundrule?

    1. Rayray*

      I’m with you. This isn’t a healthy culture at all. People need time to rest, whether due to surgery or if they just want to use PTO for a mental health day to sit home and watch movies.

      If I were an employee here, I’d be really put off by this. This kind of culture creates fear that no one can use PTO ever.

      This is actually abusive to that employee. They shouldn’t feel obligated to work while recovering. A good boss would reassign their duties.

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      I think you said the right thing. Let people recover from their surgery! How good a job will someone who might be on painkillers do, anyway?

      1. Otter Dance*

        Exactly!
        Everything I programmed while on hydrocodone after major surgery had to be completely redone when I was back to normal. I think I even messed up a date format validation.

        1. NotQuiteAnonForThis*

          In my case, nothing was done “incorrectly”, but its a case of “I did WHAT now? I have zero recollection of doing that, are you sure?!”

    3. Not Your Average Jo(lene)*

      I understand the need the employee feels to finish their project to completion, but yeah, I agree that it sends the wrong signal and isn’t the culture you want to show to others. I believe in strong barriers to my personal life. My stance is because I used to be in a position where there was no coverage if someone was out. I had major surgery and stuff was left undone. I was on FMLA, so I was protected, but it left the wrong taste in my mouth.

      1. Ins mom*

        Agree with the above and what about security issues for the laptop and data at the hospital? Bad idea all around

      1. Beatrice*

        It’s possible to tell them no and explain what that does to their team and company culture, if they think it’s just their choice. I would not allow it.

        Also, if they’re on FMLA, not only is it illegal, both the company and their manager personally could be liable for FMLA violations, so it’s a huge no. I had an employee a few years back who was hugely resistant to taking actual medical leave and being off work for her serious medical issue that unquestionably required treatment, and I used that as my pushback to tell her that she HAD to plan to be off work for the time her doctor told her she needed to take off.

    6. Aquawoman*

      I think they may all have unrealistic ideas about the person’s condition post-surgery. They’re thinking, “oh, minor surgery,” but if someone is in the hospital, they are physically and/or mentally compromised. Even just recovering from anesthesia takes a while.

    7. RagingADHD*

      On principle, you’re right.

      In practice, it really depends on how minor the surgery is as to whether this is totally warped or not. If it’s an outpatient procedure with local anesthetic and they are just going to be sitting at the hospital waiting for their ride home, that’s less problematic. Still not good to set that as an expectation, but not a huge deal.

      If they are admitted to the hospital to stay? Yeah, really not something you want to encourage.

    8. pbnj*

      How did they respond after you said that? Did they see why it was problematic? I think you’re not crazy at all. I’ve seen people brag about working while at the hospital (which I thought was bananas), so I appreciate anyone who pushes back on this culture.

      1. Middle Manager*

        Most people on the call seemed like they thought I was being unreasonable/it wasn’t that big a deal, which is why I guess I needed a reality check. Luckily, our director did support it, although not live in the meeting, in an email later. I think that it was almost a bragging point, just like who sends an email the latest at night is, is what was most concerning. And I’m not above it, I’ve also sent those late night emails, maybe why I feel so strongly about it, that’s already too much and the idea that the next level of being a “good” employee in our organization is working from a hospital is just a bridge too far…

    9. Rachel in NYC*

      Definitely not wrong.

      And raises the issue of how voluntary the staff member’s action really was.

    10. Anon for this one*

      A former supervisor sent me an offer letter the very same day she gave birth (I’m not sure whether the email or the child came first). When I realized the timing I was stunned, and in retrospect it was a bit of a red flag about some unreasonable expectations and her habit of responding/reacting without taking context into account. Good on you for speaking up!

    11. Green Mug*

      Before surgery, there is a lot of time one needs to spend laying around in the hospital. It’s boring, and you are nervous. To some people, keeping your mind occupied on work and feeling productive might be a helpful coping mechanism.

      1. Middle Manager*

        I can totally see that. It’s the kind of choice I might even make for myself. But to me it’s not about that person in particular, it’s about the culture we’re creating. Other staff aren’t necessarily going to be aware of the specifics, they might just going to know that staff person A told them they were out surgery and then see emails coming in from them the day they are scheduled off. To me that sets a terrible precedent that these are the norms/expectations around our office.

    12. Claritza*

      A friend was going for promotion to Assistant Principal. The interviewing team arrived at her hospital bedside after her sinus surgery and insisted on conducting the interview, She said she was so medicated that it was an “out of body” experience. She did manage to get the promotion.

  10. Please stop talking to me*

    My job is usually about 85 percent field work, but that’s impossible during the pandemic. My organization did a few weeks of WFH but now has everyone back in the office full-time. We’ve had 3-4 incidents of infection on staff, but zero in-office spread. The org is generous with employees needing to quarantine. We are usually not allowed to WFH, but those needing to quarantine may do so. In general, things are okay for most staff.

    Since I can’t travel, I’m in the office full-time. I’ve been inventing projects to stay busy-ish and productive, but I’m getting stir crazy. I’m very much an introvert – the usual field work is perfect for me, because it involves hours of solo time – so being around people constantly is a huge change and incredibly wearing. These people do. not. shut. up. Our setup is a series of connected rooms, so I don’t have a private office with a door I can close. I do wear headphones sometimes, although they give me a headache. And even with headphones, people still come in and talk to me or sit near my desk to talk with/at my office mate. The office mate often ignores *them,* but constantly interrupts *me* with some headline or bit of gossip (even when I’m wearing headphones).

    I don’t mind morning greetings and human interaction. But this is constant: three of these people have very few duties, so they spend their days gossiping and hanging out. Unfortunately, they’re proteges of the (absentee) Uber Boss, so I can’t appeal up the chain of command. WFH isn’t permitted. (My normal reaction is “use your words,” but due to these people’s connection to Uber Boss and internal politics, that would be… inadvisable, at best.)

    Anyone have coping strategies? Or do I just continue escaping to the restroom when I’m on the verge of shrieking? (Also, I needed to vent as much as anything, so thank you for that opportunity.)

    1. Juneybug*

      Could you work in a conference room? When asked, you can say you needed to focus on a task.
      Sorry you are going through this. It does not sound fun.

    2. SpringIsForPlanting!*

      I think it’s actually OK to talk to the people themselves as long as you don’t do so when you’re already in a foaming rage. If you can frame it as something about you, rather than something about them, it has a good chance of going over fine. More at “hey, can I ask a favor, I find it hard to focus with people chatting around me, would you mind stepping out in the hall” or (to office mate, friendly perky tone) “Hey, you might not realize but I’m actually a raging introvert and I’m feeling ‘peopled out’ lately; hope you don’t mind if I would rather not chat during the day!” Less dramatic tearing off of headphones and running out of office shrieking ‘shut up! shut uuuuupppp!’ (Not that you or I would ever actually do that, but oh I’ve come close in earlier lives.)

    3. Garrett*

      I hear you. I just started a new job and it’s in-office after being WFH for the last year. Plus my previous office was pretty quiet. Here…not so much. My job is singular but I am surrounded by people who have to interact constantly, so lots of chatter.

      My coping has been to take lots of mini-breaks. I get up and take a lap around the building. I sit in the cafeteria at off-times for a minute. I’ve taken a few walks (weather is hindering that) and have even sat in my car. I also take lunch at a different time than most others so I can enjoy the quiet of no one there. Finally, I come in early before most people so I have that quiet time first thing in the morning. You can always go the other way and stay later so you have quiet time at the end of the day.

    4. Rational Lemming*

      I don’t have anything magically to offer, but used to work in an office that was a sea of cubicles and this helped me:
      1) I shifted my computer screens so that I wasn’t making unintentional eye contact with people as they walked by
      2)I know you are already wearing headphones so maybe this isn’t helpful – but I got some obnoxiously colored over-the-ear headphones (think Beats knockoffs) from Amazon (~$40?). They were a great signal that I was busy with something and not open to idle chat. People ended up knocking on my cube wall if they needed my attention. A lot of times there wasn’t even music playing through the headphones… but nobody needs to know that!
      3) This is stupid but it helped a little- I got an hourglass. Enough people saw it and asked me about it (the people that frequently dropped by my desk) that if they saw it in motion they knew I was trying to focus. Maybe it would be a good signal for your office mate?
      4) lots of walks :) I would go to a different floor to fill up my water bottle or go get a soda from the market across the street.

      Someone else on my team worked in the corner and got a sound machine – white noise – and blamed it on “the acoustics of the corner” bouncing sound around. She claimed people were quieter with that on.

    5. Pond*

      If the headphones you have give you a headache, try to find better ones. The headphones I have now are comfortable and I can wear them for hours, but previously I’ve had ones that were immediately painful or hurt after a little while. It might take some trial and error to find ones that are good for you. Things to consider include the shape and size of both the headband part and the ear parts, as well as volume (if you are listening to anything) and noise cancelling.

      1. Autumnheart*

        Eh, YMMV. I have a pair of Sennheiser over-the-ear headphones, and while i can wear them comfortably for 2-4 hours, after that they do tend to hurt. I wear glasses, usually a headband, probably a mask too, and it’s just a lot of competition for the back of my ears. Maybe switch from OTE to earbuds and vice versa every few hours.

    6. WellRed*

      You need to say something, cheerfully, politely, repeatedly till the stop being rewarded by your responding to them. I mean, if you politely say, “well, got to get back to this report” do you honestly think they are gong to say to Uber Boss, “PSTTM told me she had to write a report when I was trying to gossip with her?”

    7. 'Tis Me*

      Aargh my sympathies!

      Are there any meeting rooms you can book to do online learning in relation to your role with audio on (no headphones) so you can take off somewhere and hide? “My headphones are digging in a bit and I really want to focus on this without distracting you, Officemate, but I should still be able to reply to emails quickly etc if anybody needs me” for an hour or two a couple of times a week may help you keep going the rest of the time.

      Alternatively if there’s somebody in HR or management who might be receptive, “I know our culture is a friendly, chatty one, but sometimes people need to focus in silence on something complicated and involved and that can be tricky. Would it be possible to set up a meeting room as a silent work room?” (if somebody instead tries to cut down on the chatter and distractions people may think you were complaining and be a bit peeved so it really depends how it’s likely to land, though.)

      Also, both these plans rely on meeting rooms being available and this being recognised as appropriate use of them at your company…

      It’s a shame “Me introvert. Too many words. Shhh time now. Shhhhh” isn’t an acceptable way to talk to people and you basically need to invent excuses to work effectively! Good luck!

      1. Aquawoman*

        LOL, that is pretty close to how I say it to my family, though. I believe I also have a facial expression that says that for me.

    8. The teapots are on fire*

      Sing tunelessly to yourself. Maybe it will drive them crazy and they’ll go hang out in the other people’s area.

  11. The Cosmic Avenger*

    No question, just good news! I’m back with my old company, my old boss, and much of my old team, and many of the new people are people I have met or worked with a bit already! Oh, and for MORE MONEY than before! \o/

    2. Mx*

      Covid related :

      My coworker who lives near me wants to offer me a lift in her car. The issue is she won’t wear a mask. My other option is to use public transport (about 20mn). Not everyone wears a mask in public transport but it’s not crowded at the time I travel so I can easily keep my distance.
      The car journey would probably be no more than 10mn.
      I wonder what is the least unsafe option. What would you do ?

      2. Person from the Resume*

        I am not scientist, but I think the public transport sounds safer.

        Riding in the car exposes you less than 6 fee to the same unmasked regularly. If she’s contagious, you’ll get so much exposure.

        Although there are more people on public transport, you get less exposure to each individual and can probably social distance.

      3. Artemesia*

        This is just so insane. With the new highly contagious variant it is outrageous that people are still around people without masks. What about at the office? Is mask wearing being required there? Certainly being in an enclosed space like a car with someone unmasked is foolhardy. The buses where I am are running with lower numbers and people are masked. Even if some bus riders are not masked that sounds safer than being in a car. But bad alternatives either way.

        Is this same person spewing his/her breath all over the office unmasked as well?

      4. Jules the 3rd*

        If you can sit in the back seat, diagonally opposite the driver, and have the other back seat window open, I’ve seen an article demonstrating the airflow there is relatively safe. Intended for cabs / Uber situations…

        1. Mx*

          It’s a very small 2-sits car so I can’t be at the back. I will probably carry on using public transport

      5. Sparrow*

        If the commute via public transportation is only 20 minutes and you’ll have a good amount of space from people, I’d probably go that route, personally. If I knew the coworker was staying at home and always wore a mask in public/at work and just didn’t like to have it on in the car, I might feel differently, but I rather doubt that’s the case. And I would definitely tell her the reason I was turning down her generous offer.

      6. Mr. Shark*

        “She won’t wear a mask” seems like a big variable here. She doesn’t wear a mask at all, or she has told you point blank she’s unwilling to wear a mask in her commute? Since it’s only 10 minutes, can you just ask her, “I really appreciate your offer. I know you don’t usually wear a mask in the car, but given our inability to socially distance in the car, I would love to accept a lift to the office if we could wear a mask for that short amount of time to keep us both safe. Otherwise I will have to take public transportation, because I don’t want to take the risk. Is this something that you can do?”

      7. Ali*

        I have a friend who got Covid from riding in a car. She was unmasked, but the infected person was masked. I would not do it. (She’s now a long-hauler. It’s miserable.)

      8. linger*

        Actually, I would take the car as the least worst option.
        The thing is, either way, you can’t have perfect social distancing and can’t rely on others wearing masks during your commute.
        Apart from the biggie of not wearing a mask (just in the car? or is mask-wearing not required at your place of work either?), your coworker’s exposure risk profile may not be that different from your own, if you have similar jobs, and live in similar neighbourhoods. You can’t know that for random bus passengers.
        In the car, however, you can have more control over ventilation; you interact with far fewer different people with possible exposure; and there is a shorter overall time of possible exposure with each journey.

      9. Sandman*

        From what I’ve read there haven’t really been outbreaks related to transit, surprisingly enough. The theory I’ve heard is that the constant opening and closing of doors improves ventilation enough that even if an infected person is on the bus, the air exchange keeps the amount of virus in the air low. I would personally choose transit over riding with an unmasked colleague and that math would probably only change for me if we were both masked and had the windows cracked.

  12. Rayray*

    I’m curious to hear from people who have managed to change departments at their companies. I work for a mid sized company at the corporate office. I got my job this summer after a few months of unemployment. I really like the company, but I will need more money. I’m getting by, but it won’t be enough to support myself long term. I had specific experience related to the role and negotiated my pay and I was hired in at a level 2 of the position and at the highest pay scale. There’s people who have been here a couple years and are still level 1, so I don’t anticipate moving up in this department at all.

    There’s other positions within the company I’d be interested in. I also know that you are eligible for transfers after six months with the company.

    What tips do you have for this? I don’t intend to go for anything I’m wildly u qualified for, but I would like to try something different if I can. What was your experience like?

    1. ThatGirl*

      I switched departments at my last company. For me, I had originally taken a job that had some overlap with my skills, but which I was probably a bit overqualified for (I’m a writer/editor/copywriter; the job was a new position within customer service). And after a couple years in it, it became obvious to me that it was never going to be quite the job I’d wanted, for a number of reasons, and I saw that a copywriter job had opened up. Because I knew the products and the company and had the relationships already built, it was super easy to make my case.

      For you, I would take as much time as you can to learn the company and build those relationships, get really good at your job, and learn about the other teams/managers as much as you can, because it will make it much easier to change departments.

      1. Rayray*

        Thank you!

        I think I’m in a similar boat. I do some
        Basic audits of documents but would love to join something like copywriting, marketing etc. I may not have the *exact* experience as those jobs are always competitive, but I’m hoping I could use my previous job experience and college degree as leverage to hopefully join one of those teams.

    2. Hillary*

      It really depends on the company culture, and sometimes the role you’ve started in. At my employer it would be frowned on to try for a transfer before two years. But at my bff’s company they encourage entry-level people to start looking for their next role a year in. Everywhere I’ve worked I would have needed my manager’s support to apply for something else internally.

      Personally I’d wait until you’ve got the lay of the land. Take the time to build trust with your manager and figure out what you’re most interested in.

      1. WellRed*

        I agree. If you transfer and it turns out not to be the best fit, you may get stuck for awhile before you can transfer again.

    3. Miss Marple*

      If you can tick a lot of the “must have” criteria then apply.
      If you are unsure and know or know of the Manager that is advertising, book them in for a coffee or meeting to discuss the job. It will tell you what skills are the most needed in the role.
      I have been successful in getting 3 out of 4 internal jobs that I applied for. Ironically the one I missed out on went to 2 people that were less qualified, less experienced and ticked less boxes than me. I ticked 8 out of 10 but the job already had people that ticked those 8 out of 10. The 2 that were successful ticked 5 out of 10 but ticked 1 box where there was nobody with that skill set in the team.
      One job I got, which was a promotion into management I ticked 5 out of 10 boxes. Two boxes I ticked were huge skills gaps in the team, As I had extensive experience in these skills and training others to acquire them, I got the job.
      The ultimate irony with this job, is I hated management and after doing my 12 months I went back to being a skilled teapot maker and have never been happier at work.
      One job I missed out on was with a Manager who I had had a lot of dealings with and he is one of my strongest advocates in the company, in the past he tried to get budget to get me into his team. I ticked 8 out of 10 boxes and missed out to a candidate that ticked 4 out of 10 boxes and had 2 years experience to my 20 years. On of the boxes he ticked was a skill set that nobody in the team had. The other box was he had worked with the client in the past that we were moving onto our system The other box was he had worked in a different role with one of the clients that we were moving onto our system.
      I had a friend that went from Tea Pot Manager to Senior Manager after 6 months. It caused quite a kerfuffle but he got the job as nobody internally applied and external candidates were thin on the ground. Plus he had worked in other jobs such as managing the tea pot painters.

    4. Lyudie*

      I did this a couple of years ago…you’re already getting good advice but here is something to keep in mind. At my company at least, and I’m sure this is some kind of off-the-shelf software, your manager is automatically notified if you apply for an internal position. So I would talk with your current manager before applying so it’s not an unpleasant surprise. If your manager is good (mine was) they might even be able to put you touch with people in the new department to give you a chance to ask questions, see what the work is like, and make that good impression in advance. My manager was very happy to help me take the next step, even if it meant my leaving her team. Of course not all managers are that gracious and invested in their employees’ careers.

      If your company posts job descriptions on the intranet, take a look at those and figure out what areas you are good in and where you are weaker. These might not always be kept up to date but it might be helpful in figuring out if the position would be a good fit.

      1. Isomorphism*

        Same for my company, which is why I (and generally people with bad managers) avoided the official hiring process until I was accepted for a position. Almost every hiring manager here keeps your informal application confidential.

        There is the common understanding that this is a bad system since it prevents people from getting away from bad managers without looking externally, but HR insists on it…

    5. jleebeane*

      I’ve done this! I started out in Customer Service and moved to our technology team, first supporting the custom software we used in CS and now as a product owner for that software, working to translate our users’ needs into changes the developers need to make.

      I’d never worked in technology before but my 4+ years of experience with the company meant I brought a lot of much-needed knowledge to the team. Even now, almost three years removed from my CS experience, I still have an understanding of our processes and the services we offer clients that helps me do my day to day job.

      In addition to leveraging “insider info”, I built really strong relationships with people outside my team, which meant when I was ready to leave Customer Service, I had lots of people willing to discuss their open roles with me and talk about how I might fit.

      I also was really lucky that I felt comfortable going to my then-current-boss to say I needed a change and was shopping, within the company, for a new position. Part of that was just my own confidence that I could find something and part of that was that our CS team was sort of known as a jumping off point within the company, so I had reason to believe I wouldn’t be forced out before I could move on.

      Good luck with finding a new position!

    6. Cassidy*

      Hi Rayray,

      I’m in academia, so I don’t know if my situation would apply in your context, but I worked my previous position for about two years, and, in my second year, asked if I could shadow a different department for a couple of hours a week. I also happen to work in an environment where cross-training among departments within my unit is prized, so my request was readily accepted. When the department I shadowed began the hiring process for a vacant role, guess who got it? It’s been a wonderful experience, except for a co-worker who is just mean-spirited, insecure, and petty. But I guess that part is for a different thread, lol. Good luck!!

  13. Octopus*

    Is there something wrong with me that I don’t like work? I feel like both places I’ve worked take the approach of piling on as much work as in-humanely possible until I’m working 50+ hour weeks and having emotional breakdowns trying to juggle everything. (And I’m fairly entry level and not in a field where long hours are notorious). How do some people enjoy (??) going to work? Is there something wrong with me that the workload negatively impacts me? I’m heading straight toward burnout, and I don’t even want to be promoted/build my career for fear that I would have to take on even more work. I’m feeling really hopeless staring down 30+ more years of this.

    Do people have any advice for finding/building a career path that won’t drive me to burn out? Have I just been unlucky in my past two employers? People here who love your work — do you not face unreasonable workloads at your place of employment, or does it just not bother you?

    1. Web Crawler*

      I’m also entry level and not in a field where long hours are notorious. I do enjoy my job, and I work no more than 40 hours a week, and the workload is manageable.

      I still couldn’t handle 40 hours a week in an office, though. Fluorescent lights give me migraines, I can’t stand our open office, and autism and sensory sensitivity meant that I was super burned out every Friday. So now I work from home (this started pre-pandemic) and everything is easier.

    2. ThatGirl*

      Of course you’re not going to love work if you’re feeling burned out and overloaded!

      I have mostly liked my jobs, but that’s because I’ve worked reasonable hours, felt like I was paid fairly, had good support for training and a good work-life balance.

      I don’t know your field but this could just be bad luck, there are certainly plenty of bad managers and lousy companies out there.

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Well, first, are you the only one getting piled on with that much work? Are you allowing yourself to be taken advantage of? If so, stop it. Allison has posts about how to deal with too much work – find, read, and use.

      1. Octopus*

        I know a lot of people on the team are also very busy, but some people don’t seem to do much work. We’re all working from home, so it’s not immediately clear what other peoples’ workloads are, but I think there’s an element of being taken advantage of (e.g., why am I helping format PowerPoints when there are two people in our office who have “assistant” in their title?). But I basically have three+ people who can assign me work, so it makes pushing back hard/complicated, especially on little things that individually only take ~an hour, but are one more thing to juggle and they all pile up… I have read the related posts on the site (at least I think I found them all!), but I guess I thought they didn’t apply to me…or maybe I’m too scared to use my words and push back…? I just feel like I’d have to take 5-10 minutes to explain to someone why I’m too overworked for their various interruptions/pseudo-emergencies, which in the moment would feel out of place, since the other people don’t have good context for what else I’m working on, the associated deadlines, importance, etc. Gah, I guess I don’t have a great perspective right now because I’m just trying to keep my head above water & very conflict adverse!

        1. Chilipepper*

          Go to your main boss and explain that you are working x hours a day and need to prioritize some things and your plan is to do that by doing a, then b, then c (or whatever you think will work) unless they want you to prioritize things differently.

          Is anyone complaining if it takes a long time to do things?

        2. Quinalla*

          Yeah, you need help prioritizing. My job is similar to this where multiple people assign work and they really do not know how much you have on your plate. You HAVE to either push back and say you can’t take it on or can’t get it done until X date or go to your boss to help you prioritize. With 3 people assigning you work, it might be easier for your boss to assign X hours a week to each person then you can prioritize with them individually for the most part and only involve your boss if 2 or 3 have something urgent/emergency.

          But yeah, set up a meeting with your boss ASAP (Monday at this point) to talk about this, don’t wait. When you have a reasonable workload, I am hopeful you will be able to enjoy work more. My job is pretty typically 45 hours a week, but ranges from 40-50, but that is typical for my industry and I’m fine with it personally. It is deadline driven, so some weeks are busier than others!

    4. Zephy*

      There’s nothing wrong with you, it sounds like you’ve had bad luck with employers. Alison has a lot of advice around setting boundaries and managing up in the archives, which are good skills to cultivate anyway, but it’s possible you just keep picking shitty companies to work for.

    5. DataGirl*

      My personal reality is that I would much rather be a stay-at-home mom/ not work (and my kids are teens- nearly out of the house). The fact is I’d much rather spend my time cleaning, cooking, decorating, crafting, gardening, volunteering, learning, reading… anything creative than be stuck at a job, but I have no choice in the matter, I have to earn a living. My suggestion would be if you are young enough that you can change career trajectories, think about what in your life makes you really happy. Is there anyway to make a living doing that? The answer may be no- I certainly wouldn’t earn enough from my crafts or baking to support myself and my family, but maybe there’s something out there that would work for you?

      1. Octopus*

        Yes, I’d sooo much rather be a homemaker! This is helpful advice about thinking about if I could make a living doing the things I enjoy doing…I also think it’s unlikely for me, unfortunately! (I would love to do creative things, but I don’t want to fall into the starving artist trap). I’m fortunate that my current BF makes enough that he could support both of us, but I am a child of divorce, and I personally want to be able to support myself (theoretically). But I guess that’s a good reminder of why I’m putting myself through this stress…as you said, earning a living is important!

        1. I've Escaped Cubicle Land*

          Octopus if you are WFH take advantage of mini breaks to keep a work/life balance. Like I’ve already got 2 loads of laundry thru the washer this shift. And walking away from the computer for those 5 minutes or less trips helps my brain immensely. Sometimes just going over to a window and staring out it while I sip coffee for a minute is all the mini break I need. I’d really look at prioritizing your incoming work and categorizing it in groups like Done Right Now, Done Today, Can Wait Until Tomorrow. Break your day into zones for working on different tasks. If you can’t keep up loop your direct supervisor in using language like “I can get X,YZ done. Unfortunately that means A,B,C will have to wait” Ask for suggestions or if there is anything you should be prioritizing differently. Sometimes its all about having the right manager too. I’d tell Boss A that I was having trouble keeping up. (Work stacks so large that piles were literally falling off my desk) Boss A would simply say “Don’t worry about it” and do nothing. This in fact did not help me level of worry decrease. It rather sent my blood pressure up. Boss B will say things like “Work on X and Z can wait until another day” Or “I’ll have Person help with A for a few days” Boss B has my eternal gratitude.

        2. DataGirl*

          I wish I could draw- that can at least be translated into a tattoo artist or graphic design or something that makes money. There’s no money in cross stitching, lol. I totally get not wanting to fall into the starving artist trap. Could I open a business decorating cakes? Sure. Would I make enough money to support my kids and myself. Probably never.

          If you can reduce the stress and workload at your job, giving yourself more time to enjoy the things you do love, that might help. Good luck!

    6. Captain Biggs and Wedge*

      I don’t really ENJOY going to work, but getting paid is nice, plus the work gives me some form of social connection with colleagues and a bit of structure to my life.
      However, your problem is more in the lines of unreasonable work loads. Is it common throughout your office / line of work? I was also once in your shoes, and the problem was industry wide. I sought out a new job in an adjacent field and gotten a lot better work life balance. I would recommend you see if its possible to either adjust your workload, or start exploring other jobs. Good luck!

    7. Cat Tree*

      I had a string of four jobs after college, and I was miserable at each one. There were two different factors at play. Part of it was my own mental health. It wasn’t specifically addressed during my therapy but I realized in hindsight that I had been getting caught on bad things and then they would just spiral around in my brain and I could never move past it.

      Once I had that perspective, I figured out the second problem: some of the jobs/companies just truly were terrible. But not all of them. Two were really bad, one was mediocre, and one was actually pretty good. I’ve had other jobs since then and I’m better at evaluating them real-time. Even for one that wasn’t great, I took the perspective that I should try to get as much as possible out of it while I continued to look elsewhere. That helped it be more tolerable. So it’s very possible that you just found two bad jobs. Think about what you really want out of a job and pursue that long-term, always building on the lessons learned at the one you don’t like.

      But also, you don’t have to love your job. Sure, it’s better if you at least like it because you spend so much time doing it. But at the end of the day, you work so you can pay your bills and sometimes that has to be enough.

    8. Person from the Resume*

      Nothing wrong with you. Sounds like you ended overworked and burned out in two jobs.

      I like my job well enough. I like it more than many other things I could get paid for. It fits me well, and I am good at it. I had a bad project that probably stressed me out for the whole of the 5 years I was assigned, but the perks and benefits were still worth it. But to be honest there is always something else other than work I’d rather be doing. I work to get money to live, support my hobbies, support my future retirement.

    9. LadyByTheLake*

      A couple things:
      Very few people enjoy consistent high-hour/high-pressure jobs. Most people look at such hours as a tradeoff for money, prestige, career advancement, training etc. If that tradeoff isn’t there for you, then find a different employer.
      Since you aren’t in a field where long hours are expected, I think you got unlucky with your employers. I started off in a field where long hours ARE expected (law), and my first job made me seriously question whether I had made the right career choice. But even there I was able to move from my BigLaw firm to a MediumLaw firm where the expectations were a lot different and it turns out that I love practicing law. Not just at my first firm.

    10. Dr of Laboratoria*

      It sounds to me that it’s not that you don’t like work… it’s that you don’t like the work you’re doing right now. I felt the exact same way at my previous job as you do now.

      Your past and present jobs to not align with what your life to be – it sounds like you want a nice, 9-5, 40hrs, clock out and go do other stuff kind of job, right?

      I can tell you from experience that they are out there, because I moved from a job that was high hours to one that’s very much 40 hours, you’re done, go home, and don’t think about work until you clock in in the morning.
      As you’re thinking about your career development, I would start a list of jobs that sounds interesting, then start comparing them. For example, compare a Certified Personal Accountant vs. Adimistrative Assistant vs. Grant Manager (replace with whatever you’re interested in). Ask friends what they think of their jobs. Be honest with yourself about how far up you want to climb the ladder. Try to schedule some informational interviews of jobs that interest you.

      And at interviews, I think it’s ok to ask about hours and time commitment, especially if you are able to meet with other staff. With the job I have now, I knew I would have to be on call some weekends so I asked what should I expect when working a weekend. It’s a very fair question. I mean, we all have to stay late at our jobs sometimes, but when it gets to be everyday, that’s not OK for a lot of us.

      Just to reiterate – I don’t think it’s YOU and think is the JOBS you’ve landed in. And I bet there’s much better out there that will match the life you want to live.

      Good Luck!

      1. Octopus*

        This is a super helpful perspective — and very uplifting to me to know that you were successful in finding a good fit for yourself! Thank you so much for sharing that it’s possible to find a job that does align with what I’m looking for (you nailed what it is that I want out of my work), and the process you used to find it!!

    11. Two Dog Night*

      I think it’s partly bad luck, and partly that you’re early in your career. Lower-level employees tend to get dumped on. At most companies, as you get more responsibility you’ll also get more flexibility, which helps a lot. But there are companies that won’t expect 50+ hour weeks all the time… and there are companies that will.

      Have you talked to your manager about your workload? Are they at all sympathetic? Is it possible that you’re putting time into making things perfect when they just need to be good enough? Can some of your responsibilities be handed off to someone who had bandwidth, or are all your coworkers in the same boat? Can you detach a bit, so you’re not so emotionally invested even if you’re putting in more hours than you’d like?

      You might want to start looking for a new job, but be really picky about it. Figure out what you do and don’t like about your current job, and think about what kind of jobs have a lot more of the good things than the bad things. When you’re interviewing, ask questions about the culture, read Glassdoor reviews, and ask other people in the industry what they think about various companies.

      I hope that’s not all too general to be helpful… it’s hard to make suggestions without knowing specifics. It is definitely possible to have a good career that doesn’t take up your whole life, but it might take some time to find the right position.

      1. Octopus*

        This is all very helpful as both a reality check of what I’m dealing with (getting dumped on is probably part of it), and the pieces I can influence (not making things perfect when good works). I am really struggling with how to address the issue with my manager, but they are sympathetic on the workload (acknowledging there’s a lot on my plate). I guess I’m worried “I’m drowning, please help” isn’t concrete/professional enough to really raise the issue, and there might not be much she can do because other people assign me work directly. A lot of these projects are temporary too, so I keep telling myself if I “just get through this week” then I’ll be able to step off the gas, but there’s always more.

        1. Two Dog Night*

          I totally sympathize–I’ve been in that position. Your manager should be helping you prioritize and running interference if necessary. If you’ve got more stuff than you can get done in a reasonable number of hours, lay it all out for them and ask for direction–what order should you do things in, what can wait, what can be shifted to someone else.

          And you might want to talk about whether/how much you can push back when people assign you work. If someone gives you something and says they need it done in two days, are you allowed to say, “Sorry, I’m swamped, can’t do it by that time”? That’s going to depend on your company’s culture, but your manager should be helping you navigate it.

          Managing one’s workload is tough. I tend to take too much on because I’m over-optimistic about how long things will take; I’ve really had to learn to pad my estimates and not over-promise. It’s rough, but if you can learn how to do it, it’s a skill you’ll use for your whole career, no matter what you’re doing.

          Good luck! If you can get your workload under control, you might find that you don’t hate work as much as you think. And if you do still hate it, that’s useful information too.

        2. 'Tis Me*

          Email:
          “Hi, Mainmanager,

          Would it be possible to talk to you about my workload? I’m working 50 hour weeks as standard currently. Because a lot of the tasks are relatively small – say, an hour’s work – pushing back on them doesn’t seem appropriate, but when 6 or 7 people each give you an urgent task that must be done that day, each of which will only take about an hour, that’s basically a day’s worth of tasks, before getting onto any older items with longer deadlines, my standing responsibilities, or meetings.

          I’ve gone through my tasklist for the past week to illustrate what my workload looks like; see the table below.

          Received
          Deadline
          Task
          Assigned by/Project
          Time taken

          As you can see, no one person is asking me to do an excessive amount, but I received X hours’ more work in total, most of it urgent, on top of Y hours’ meetings, Z hours’ standing tasks, P hours’ work needed on existing projects, etc. This was a typical week.

          As we are working remotely, it’s really hard to ascertain if other people may have capacity, for instance, would it be OK to ask [Bob to ask one of the assistants to format his document in house style]? Would it be acceptable to ask people to fill out a shared Excel document with fields similar to those in the table above as well as emailing me to assign work, with some sort of formatting in place to automatically highlight e.g. If I’ve been assigned over 5 hours of work to do in the last day with less than 48 hours’ TAT? Something like that would make it easier for me to ask people if they can reprioritise. Alternatively, is there another way you would like me to do this?”

          Statement of problem. Quantify. Propose solutions. Make it clear what it is you want from the manager.

          I suspect your manager doesn’t realise how much work is coming your way. Hopefully s/he’ll be happy to support you in setting whatever boundaries will help you manage the work most (no new tasks due by COB after 1pm/24 hour standard TAT expectation for hourly tasks/all items logged somewhere with more visibility so that people can see when you’re swamped/authority and support to ask people to pass certain types of tasks to somebody else/just knowing that if you need to say “I can’t do that this week, I’m really sorry” you can do without repercussion), and when you have a maintainable, sane workload and don’t feel like you’re constantly desperately trying to swim uphill you can at the least take a quiet satisfaction in knowing that you do your job well, with none of the panicky, overwhelmed dread that the whole idea of work currently holds.

    12. HB*

      It’s likely an organizational culture thing, especially if you live in the USA. There’s a joke about having two cows and how each country handles that… The American version is that the company sells one cow, forces the other to produce 4 cows worth of milk, and then hires an outside consulting firm when the cow dies.

      The tendency of companies to not replace workers and instead offload their work onto other employees is toxic and not sustainable and it sounds like you’re getting the brunt of that practice. If this is the only thing about your current job that is impacting you, talk to your boss about your workload. They might just need a nudge to know that they need to stop offloading or they’ll have to redistribute YOUR workload too, when you eventually snap and walk or wind up taking medical leave for exhaustion.

      Also, I’d argue that some folks are okay with being somewhat overworked IF job satisfaction balances that out. I used to be very satisfied in my current position, but COVID has changed that a lot and as a result I’m jumping ship for a safer and better option. I remember loving coming to work and voluntarily working more hours than I was assigned just because it was a fulfilling thing to do. But it’s near impossible to not resent being told to do so when you actively don’t want to.

    13. Malarkey01*

      For me some of it is reframing. I don’t like to work, but I usually like my job- if I had unlimited money there a lot of other productive things that I would like to spend my time on (and some fun but unproductive things too) than a job. So since I must work, I reframe things to finding the job that I’m happiest with (like housework- I hate it but laundry and cooking doesn’t bug me as much so I take that on). I also reframe things and think I’m glad my job allows me to – and sometimes that’s a specific work skill or sometimes it’s allows me to pay for rock climbing trips.

      Most of us go through cycles to where you hate your job or are burned out, but then go to enjoying your job, and back and forth.

    14. mreasy*

      I like my job, and my coworkers, and believe in our mission, but I wouldn’t say I “like” work and I certainly wouldn’t do it if I didn’t need the money.

    15. Generic Name*

      Nobody enjoys being overwhelmed with work to the point of burnout. And there’s a ton of territory between the dichotomy of “emotional breakdown due to crushing workload” and “loving work”. So there’s nothing wrong with you, and I think it would be good to try to improve your working conditions to something you can tolerate doing for pay. Once you’re not miserable you can think of what you would need to enjoy your job. The whole “love what you do” is a myth borne out of extreme privilege. Most people work for pay because job satisfaction doesn’t pay the rent.

    16. New Mom*

      Hey Octopus, here’s my experience and hopefully, it will give some hope/insight:

      I started my career as a teacher and got super burned out by the third year and knew it was not something that I would stay in. I had pretty much ideal teaching conditions, great students, small class size and coworkers that I liked but I was still burned out with management and the same day/in day/out with no option to move up or change certain aspects. And I knew that if I was in a more challenging teaching environment I would have been deeply unhappy.

      I went back and got my master’s and then started an entry-level role in the education field but in a more administrative role. I found that my first year was the hardest, I was learning new systems and my tasks were taking me 2-3 times it would take coworkers because I was still learning systems, and the efficient ways to do things. I also got a lot of the data entry and grunt work because I was entry-level. What is good about my org is that there are many opportunities to advance so I was able to move roles about 18 months in.

      I like the work and I like my coworkers, and now that I’ve spent more time with my work, my tasks are easier to complete because I have multiple years of experience. I appreciate our less busy times to ramp up for the long days that come. But I’d say to try to feel it out and if you are still feeling unhappy and overworked in a few months that it would be worth looking into something new.

      Figuring out what makes you feel content at work is really helpful too. For example, do you want a job that you can leave work at work? Do you want a mission-driven job? Do you want a place where coworkers are around your age and it’s more of a friendly environment? Do you want a short commute?

      1. MacGillicuddy*

        Octopus, you need to systematize information about your job so you have a way to present your workload to your boss. I suggest analyzing and writing down all of your responsibilities and the amount of time it takes to do them. Make a chart/table, don’t minimize things like research, sending things for review/approval, revising, and waiting for feedback. If you have more than one project, realize that context switching has a cost – for example, 2 “four-hour jobs” take longer than 1 “eight hour job”.

        Include things like sending and answering emails, preparing for meetings, going to meetings, and after the meetings, organizing the notes you took. Nobody can spend their entire workday on their projects, because of the above kinds of “overhead” tasks.

        You need specifics to take to your boss, to discuss priorities, and how to handle requests that come from coworkers. Sending those people to your boss is an option, and a decent boss will support this. Just say something like “Sorry coworker, but my schedule is really full. I suggest you ask MyBossSally about new-task and she can figure out the priorities, thanks!” (Spoken cheerfully)
        You don’t need to overexplain to the coworker, or convince them that you don’t have time to do what they’re asking.
        Having these boss conversations coworker conversations can feel daunting if you’re early in your career, but being able to do so is a really important skill that you need to develop. Practice by talking to your mirror (yes, it works!)

        After you do the analysis and talk with your boss, then based on boss’s response, you’ll be able to figure out if you have a crappy job and a crappy boss, or whether you and your boss can make enough adjustments to have your job be manageable and tolerable. Not all jobs are loveable, but many can be good enough.

        Also, if you keep doing more than your share over and over, you will be asked to do even more. Figure out what’s reasonable, then say to your boss “I can do A, B, and C, but not D. If D is higher priority, which of the other ones shall I take off my plate/extend the date/hand off to Thurston?”

        A couple of old sayings:
        -You can’t fit 25 pounds of horse manure in a 10 pound bag”
        …and…
        Fast, Cheap, Good. Pick two.

    17. RagingADHD*

      It doesn’t sound like your work is very likeable! There are probably things you can do to get it back under control.

      Most employers/bosses will rely on you to speak up if your workload is unreasonable. When you’re being assigned work, it is normal and expected to have a conversation about priorities and deadlines. This doesn’t have to be a big dramatic thing, it’s just logistics and project planning.

      “I have X and Y due this week, so I won’t be able to start on Z until Monday. Does that work, or should we push back one of the other items?”

    18. Sparrow*

      No, absolutely nothing is wrong with you for not enjoying work. It’s true that some people live to work and love what they do, but it’s also true that many of us are literally only there for the paycheck. It took me a while after graduating to accept this about myself because I’d been taught that career should be central to my life and identity, but once I did, I prioritized finding a job that allowed true work-life balance, and I’m much happier as a result.

      I always look for jobs that I’ll be satisfied with, of course – work I don’t mind and am good at, positive office culture, etc. because while I’m not looking to be in love with my job, I don’t want to hate it, either. But a 40 hour work week is always the top priority so that I have time for the parts of life that the job is there to fund. I had an opportunity to apply for a job doing work I genuinely enjoyed, and I decided to pass because it also involved a lot of late hours and it just wasn’t worthwhile to me.

      It is entirely possible that the work isn’t a great fit for you, or you’ve got other things going on that make work harder to deal with, or that you’ve just had bad luck with companies and you’d like the job just fine with reasonable hours (and I do recommend talking to your boss about balancing your work load, if possible). But if it turns out that work just isn’t something you get a lot of enjoyment or fulfillment from – that’s fine. Truly. If therapy is an option, it might be helpful in identifying what you find unsatisfactory about the job and thus help you make strategic decisions about what to address with your boss and/or what to look for in a future job.

    19. MissDisplaced*

      Huh… LOL! Funny but I was just having this thought myself today.
      I’ve worked in some form of marketing for the last 25 years. Lately, I have just been feeling really down and disgusted with the state of marketing and corporate life in general. Literally, like everyone from every department thinks they are a marketing expert and can do a better job marketing than marketing. I don’t tell my dentist how to do a root canal. Or tell legal how to write a contract. Or tell finance how to do taxes. So quit telling us how to do marketing.

      Hate to be a Debbie Downer here, but corporate life doesn’t get much better the longer you’re in it ‘folks.

    20. TechWorker*

      Specifically RE: feeling hopeless staring down 30 years of the same/assuming promotions will make it worse… I’ve definitely felt that and have to some extent come out the other side.

      I do honestly believe that it’s possible to work smarter and not harder, and if you’re getting burnt out on something entry level then probably either a) you’re being assigned an unreasonable amount of stuff or b) there’s something else going on that means things are taking an unreasonable amount of time (Eg, you need more training in some areas, or you’re worrying about quality TOO much, or you’re spending a lot of time panicking). a) you need to talk to your manager about but it’s worth thinking about b) too and things in that category *do* improve over time generally. (Eg, things that at one point seem really difficult/stressful/time consuming can get easier when you’re more used to them).

  14. meep*

    I just remotely started a job based on the west coast but I’m remaining on the east coast until new job has in-person work again. Anyone have advice on keeping the time zones straight in you head? So far I’ve managed but it feels like it adds up to a lot of extra mental labor, and I keep compulsively checking my calendar to make sure I haven’t missed a meeting! Thanks :)

    1. geography major*

      I don’t know if this will work for you, but it may help to start adding “PT” and “ET” every time you are talking about times, even to say it aloud. I have had a few jobs with people in 3 time zones and started doing this, it helped!

      You can also start putting both times if you ever have a need to write it down (in an email you could say – “We’re still on for the meeting at 10am PT/1pm ET, right?”). No one is ever going to complain about too much detail when it comes to confirming times, since the outcome is that everyone is on the same page

      2. Glitsy Gus*

        Yeah, my team is split between east and west coast and we always put both time zones (sometimes three if the UK office is getting looped in on something) any time scheduling or timelines are discussed. It makes things MUCH easier for everyone. It’ll take a little practice, doing the add/subtract three hours thing will become second nature pretty quickly.

      3. gsa*

        Make everybody use Zulu time!!!

        I did it once for an online game. Once you’ve got it down it’s easy.

    2. KeepingItPacific*

      Over the summer, I moved to Central from Pacific while keeping my west coast-based job. I’ve found it helpful to keep my work laptop set to Pacific time. I never talk about anything in terms of Central time for work. The only thing that sometimes gets confusing is when I’m discussing my schedule for the day with my husband. Sometimes I’ll tell him I have a meeting at 10 when it’s 11 here.

      1. johnsnowspumphandle*

        Seconding this! I was only one time zone off, but my laptop didn’t allow me to adjust the time which wound up being a blessing in disguise.

      2. Donkey Hotey*

        Amplifying this one!
        It’s like theater directions: stage left and stage right are for the actors facing the audience, not the director sitting in the audience. It’s easier for one person to think backwards than fifty. To shift, change your work computer to Pacific. Also, if you are one of those old schoolers and have a watch or a wall clock, set those back too. Keep your ET cell out of the way.

    3. Person from the Resume*

      I work with people across all US time zones, and we default to trying arrange meetings w/ ET and I write ET after each time I give a time.

      But if everyone you work with is in the pacific time zone, can you just set your calendar and computer to PT and think of all your work in pacific time?

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      If you use Outlook, that program lets you set up two time zones, so when you look at your calendar you see when an appointment is in both the Pacific and Eastern time zones. I assume Google calendar has a similar feature. It was a huge lifesaver for me when my boss and most of my coworkers were in a different time zone.

      1. A Person*

        Google calendar lets you “display secondary timezone” on your calendar so that also helps me a lot when trying to plan meetings.

    5. Too Many Timezones*

      I usually work in the EST timezone with coworkers in Germany but I’m now working from MST. Here’s what I’ve been using to keep things sorted:

      – I keep my laptop on EST.

      – On Windows 10, you can set up two other clocks on your desktop so that when you hover over the time in the toolbar it can show your machine time plus the two additional time zones

      – In Google Calendar under settings, you can add a second timezone for the times along the side of the calendar.

      -In Google Calendar, there’s also a World clock setting that can be set up for multiple timezones.

    6. Hillary*

      I work across a lot of time zones. I remember people and physical places best (literally what the room looks like), so I mentally associate people with their physical locations and those locations with their time zones. The people who work for this vendor in the US live in Indiana in the eastern time zone, except so-and-so is remote and he lives in central time. That usually triggers me to think about time zones when scheduling or joining meetings.

      I also rely a lot on Outlook, especially during summer time/daylight savings time transition weeks. It’s fun to work with people in every continental US time zone, multiple European time zones, and five different Asian time zones.

      I’m really not a morning person, so in your shoes I’d probably consider taking the morning after spring daylight savings time off. I don’t think I could get up early enough for PST meetings that day without being very grumpy.

    7. pancakes*

      An app. You don’t need to download a new one if you have an iPhone – you can add cities to the World Clock by tapping the + in the upper right corner. I’m sure there are free apps for other phones.

    8. RagingADHD*

      I used to coordinate meetings with folks overseas and now often coordinate with the East and West coast while I’m in Central. I got in the habit of always listing all meeting times in every timezone, so everyone can make sure the math is correct. The only really tricky bit is when the US and the UK or other places change to summer time on different weeks. So the interval will be different during those changeovers.

      Google Calendar (and I assume Outlook does this too) automatically converts to your local timezone. So I just make sure the times are correct when we schedule it, and then run off my own calendar.

      To avoid compulsive calendar checking, I set LOTS of very intrusive alarms – notifications for the meeting itself, and then in the morning I set a loud physical alarm in my home. Then I can be sure I won’t miss the thing, so I can relax.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Before computers, people use to keep clocks on the wall. Each clock was labeled for its time zone.
      I would have to do this, I’d have to have something right in front of me at all times serving as a reference point.

      2. TheHotNerd*

        lol… I used to wonder why there were different clocks for times. Couldn’t you just add/subtract the time in your head?

        And then I began working, via state department, at places where they were 30 min off the normal hour-off. And then I conceded. :)

    10. Rara Avis*

      The silver lining of doing everything virtually is that I get invited to a lot of events I could never get to in person. The lead lining? People don’t indicate the time zone (“Starts at 8 a.m.!”) and they aren’t west-coast friendly. (“Do this training that starts after work!” Yes, in your time zone — at 5 p.m. Eastern I’m still at work, thanks.) I think we all need to get in the habit of adding time zone indicators on a regular basis.

    12. Otter Dance*

      I twice worked with people who shifted their schedule. People in Britain who worked primarily with the US office worked afternoons and evenings instead of normal hours for GMT. The folks in India essentially traded day for night. (For a pittance. Don’t get me started on the evils of outsourcing.)
      Would it be practical for you to stay on Pacific time? It actually sounds wonderful to me: sleeping three hours later, watching the late night talk shows without falling asleep in the middle….

  15. zinzarin*

    “* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

    How long would you say this rule applies? I’ve only ever submitted one question, and it was never answered, but I was curious at the time as to how long it would take to potentially see an answer.

    In fact, I’d love to know more about the answering process. Do you typically email back and forth with the questioner before publishing? Does the questioner ever know at any point (prior to publication) that their question will be getting an answer?

    Some questions seem like they probably need a quick response; how quick can the turnaround be if you choose to publish an answer to a question?

    1. Snip Snap Snip Snap*

      I had a question posted on here prior and there was a bit of back and forth for clarification. And then she sent an email with a link to the question and answer and the time that it would go live on the website.

    2. Chilipepper*

      I had a question answered. It was answered pretty quickly (within 5 days I think). There was no back and forth but she sent me an email with a heads up of the day it would be published so I could join in and answer any questions from the community.

    3. DivineMissL*

      I’ve submitted two questions to AAM and both were published. I received an email from Alison that told me the letters would be published, and on what day (I got the email a day or two before publication).

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      The turnaround can be anywhere from one day to many months. (I’ve answered things the very next day and I’ve answered things an embarrassing number of months later, figuring it’ll still be useful to others.) The majority take at least a few weeks, if not longer, but it really depends. It’s not first come, first served; it’s based on what I’m inspired to write on at a particular moment, my sense of how it’ll fit into the mix of recent posts, etc. A lot of things are never answered because I get way more mail each day than I can answer.

      I’ll occasionally email with the person to clarify details but that’s more the exception. If I do publish a question, I send the person a link.

    5. Ocean*

      Once I submitted a question, and at the top I said ‘please tell me if I should put this on open thread instead.’ Alison answered pretty quickly that yes, my question should go on the open thread.
      Of course this won’t work for all questions, but it might be a good idea for questions that you would prefer to ask on the open thread vs not getting any answer.

  16. Resume A/B Tester??*

    Has anyone ever A/B test resume formats?

    I’ve received a lot of suggestions from people about how to format my resume. In particular, people have varying opinions on what information is above the start of the reverse chronological job history section. 
    Please see the options I have and let me know your thoughts.

    Resume Option 1:
    Professional Summary: 1-2 sentences, tailored with relevant experience
    Relevant Experience: Reverse chronological job history with employer highlighted and an average of four quantifiable achievement bullets each
    Technical Skills: Variety of computer programs tied to the job/job description
    Professional Certifications: List those required for the position
    Professional Associations: Professional development group memberships
    Education: recent degrees and the bachelor’s degree

    Resume Option 2:
    Professional Summary: Centered and 2-3 sentences long and mimics the language of the job description (years of experience, software used, required skills)
    Technical Skills: Centered list of computer programs separated by bullets, broken from following section by a black line
    Professional Accomplishments: Three quantifiable achievements tied to position listed, separated from next section by a black line
    Professional Experience: Reverse chronological list starting with position title bolded and italicize with three quantifiable achievement bullets each, separated from next part by a black line
    Professional Associations: Professional development group memberships, separated from next section by a black line
    Education and Training: centered with education, then certifications listed

    I’m not crazy about the second option but am open to trying it. 

    What are your thoughts AAM commenters? 

    1. Zephy*

      I have my skills above my work experience as in option 2, but you can probably dispense with the professional summary – that sounds similar to an “objective” statement, which has been out of fashion for a while now.

    2. should i apply?*

      Personally I like the first option better. I am also in the process of updating my resume, and have wondered about doing some sort of A/B testing. However, I decided that seemed like a lot of extra work for probably minimal gain.

    3. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      I would only separate “professional accomplishments” and “professional experience” if there is a specific reason to, for example you do specialized teapot design that can be better described as a whole because it was freelance for four different different employers, as opposed to a track record of raising teapot sales 15% at Teapots Incorporated. For the latter, it seems odd to me that you would separate accomplishments out from where you made the accomplishments.

      Similarly, if technical skills are highly relevant to the job — they would never hire someone who hadn’t taken Teapot Course A and Teapot Course B — then it’s great to have that right at the top, but that’s because the person doing the hiring needs to know right off the bat rather than because it looks cool (I get very impatient if the applicant is presenting say, spreadsheet expertise before I can tell if they’ve even worked at a teapot factory before).

      Hiring managers really do just take a few moments to skim and see if they can easily find the information they need. So if there is a reason to mix up the formating by making something important more prominent for the person reading it, it’s smart to consider it. But if it’s just because a friend who doesn’t have experience in your industry likes it another way, I wouldn’t worry about it very much.

    4. A Person*

      As a hiring manager who does resume screening I prefer the first option. You can get away with technical skills above experience if it doesn’t take up much room, but I want to see your accomplishments by position. That said if you have a resume that matches with what I’m looking for I’m not sure it’s going to matter deeply. Biggest risk with option #2 is I might skip the accomplishments to get to experience and miss something important.

      Another thought: could that professional summary from #2 just be included as part of a cover letter?

      1. Resume A/B Tester??*

        Thanks for sharing your insights. If you don’t mind, I’d like to ask you some follow-up questions.

        1. Should I eliminate the Professional Summary section entirely? Is there a preference for length?

        2. Do you believe contract positions should be their own section below the Relevant Experience?

        3. What order–job title or employer–should be listed first for each position?

        4. Should certifications be their own section or be included with education?

        5. How important do you believe it is for the resume to contain words, phrases and even sentences taken directly from the job description? Are resumes stronger if they use some terms and leave the phrases and sentences for the cover letter and/or interview itself?

        Thanks for taking time to read and comment! I genuinely value your input.

        1. A Person*

          1. I would, but it’s also fine to just put a 1 sentence summary. I don’t know if there are some fields where it’s common
          2. I’ve always put contract positions in chronological order with the rest of the experience assuming they are in the same field
          3-4. Now we’re getting into details I don’t think about much :)
          5. The most important thing is to tailor the cover letter and your experiences to the job. Sometimes using the same words or phrases (I’d avoid sentences) helps you do that so that’s where I’d recommend it. This is most important if there are a few different ways of saying something. Like if the job ad asks for Llama Grooming experience, and at your company you call it Llama Brushing, maybe change to Llama Grooming *if you are sure it’s the same*.

          1. Resume A/B Tester??*

            Thanks so much!

            Three and four are areas where differently trained certified resume writers disagree. One argued that your job title is more important than where you worked, while the other insisted the company reputation and size were important enough to warrant the employer listed first.

            For certifications, one preferred they be directly behind skills and have their own section because of the ongoing education aspect and the expiration being listed. The second set of eyes believes anything tied to education belongs at the end of the resume under one heading.

            I’m trying to find someone in my field to review both versions, but it’s proving difficult to find someone willing who has sufficient time and experience.

            Again, I appreciate your suggestions.

  17. Just Here for the Cake*

    Any suggestions of productive, low/no cost things to do during downtimes at work? I work as a corporate trainer, and because of the nature of my work I’ll have weeks where I am really busy followed by days (or sometimes weeks) where there is nothing going on. I always check in with my supervisor and coworkers to see if there is anything I can help with or try to come up with projects I can work on, but a lot of the times I feel like I am really scrapping the bottom of the barrel. I appreciate being able to take it slow some days, but I get so bored when I have nothing for long periods of time. Any suggestions?

    1. FearNot*

      Try to take a lynda/linkedinlearning course on something interesting to you? My work provides it for free, and I do this sometimes. There are so many options on it! Your local library might also give you access to it.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I went through an online degree program and I did almost all of my classes during lunch breaks and down time. If you find a topic you are interested in, you can learn so much in just an hour a day!

      2. Chilipepper*

        I came here to say this – your library will have some free online learning even if it is not LinkedIn Learning.

        But also, I have been tempted to bring my crochet projects to work!

    2. Captain Biggs and Wedge*

      Some ideas:
      – sort out some of the training related data (e.g. attendance, feedbacks, audience scores…etc) that you might have gathered during your courses in a presentation, which might be useful for reporting to bosses on how you have been doing in the year
      – reach out to the office on subjects they might be interested in getting more training on and branch out your work
      – develop training plans for the team

      1. motherofdragons*

        I second these ideas. Relatedly, you might go back through your catalog of training and start to look for anything that needs to be updated due to changes in policy, practice, etc.

    3. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Are you looking for quasi work-related or skill building things? Or just any sort of quick fun activity that could occupy your time?
      Skills:
      1. Learn CSS, HTML, Bootstrap, programming languages
      2. Learn new tricks in Excel, PowerPoint, software that you use
      3. Read the news
      4. Edit Wikipedia, bonus points for editing pages about figures or topics in your field (particularly women and BIPOC)
      5. Learn a language
      6. Check out LinkedIn Learning, Khan Academy, or your local public library to see what kinds of online courses interest you

      Hobbies (non work):
      1. Coloring, knitting, cross-stitching, crafting
      2. Listen to podcasts
      3. Make all your household lists – grocery, chores, to-do, to-buy, to-fix
      4. Write letters
      5. Read for fun
      6. Puzzles (my personal favorite, and when I worked as a grad student in a college archives, we always had a puzzle going for when we needed a break)

    4. Charlotte Lucas*

      I always used the time to review & revise old training materials & try to think of new ones we might need. (As a trainer, I worked on both development & delivery). Otherwise, this is the time to take training yourself & work on professional development projects.

    5. HB*

      See if your library has professional improvement e-books you can read… or even better, e-audiobooks you can listen to while doing hands-on tasks. If not, there are some great, free podcasts out there on the same subject. Since you’re a trainer, I imagine stuff about motivating others, leading, and generally handling difficult situations (like pandemics) would be in your wheelhouse.

    6. JHB*

      I agree with everyone on the opportunity to develop new skills or review extra material. But even that can get old. 1) Can you discretely find other project teams that need extra help? For example, right now my organization has a complicated project where they are BEGGING staff from other divisions to help with document review, proofing, stakeholder engagement. Once you investigate and find an opportunity, approach your manager.
      2) Can you extend your services as a trainer for your professional community or in a voluntary basis? This can be a great way to polish your own skills or test out beta material.
      3) Are there underserved areas of your company that might need help with training? HR, customers? There are often those low priority areas where “if we ever have the time”.

      You likely have writing and speaking skills that could be used in many areas. The trick is finding short term “jobs’ that fit your slack areas.

    7. RagingADHD*

      Organizing and systematizing my work is always helpful. Sometimes that means cleaning up my inbox and adding or archiving folders. Sometimes it means making templates or checklists for recurring tasks or project phases. Sometimes it means brainstorming ways to optimize workflow.

  18. D*

    I got a job offer this week! I am trying my hand at salary negotiations and trying to not freak out as I wait for their response.

  19. Hmmm*

    I can’t decide between two offers!

    Job A:
    – national retail/e-commerce brand
    – 1 yr term (with potential to be converted permanent. In fact, everyone on the team started out on the same w2 1 year contract and was made permanent after)
    – 56k
    – no paid vacation or holidays
    – I’d ONLY do email marketing and nothing else
    – I really liked the team, and it just seemed like a fun job
    – but I might not like my direct manager. She’s new to managing and didn’t have very good responses when I asked her about her managing/training style.

    Job B:
    – Big marketing agency
    – permanent role
    – 40K
    – do ALL sorts of marketing (particular focus on executing paid ads), good learning experience
    – not passionate about the work, but also not sure if I’ll even like the work cos I’ve never done it before.
    – tons of OT (which I don’t like)
    – most people seem to get promoted after 1 year or move onto a higher role at another company
    – manager seemed lovely. We had a lot in common and seemed to click.
    – unlimited PTO

    Health benefits are pretty similar, although I’d say Job B ‘s health insurance options are slightly better. I see both as stepping stones onto better opportunities within digital marketing, but Job A seems to limit me only to email marketing or retail e-commerce marketing, whereas Job B can lead to more broad opportunities?

    My heart says job A but I feel like logically I should be job B? Even tho my gut feeling says I won’t be as happy at job B??

    1. Junior*

      Curious to know, why do you think the logical answer is Job B? Looks like Job A pays significantly better, so for a lot of people that’s the number one consideration.

      1. Zephy*

        Job A is just a 12-month contract, though. Even if “everyone” starts out on contract and gets hired on fully later, that’s a bit of a gamble, especially now. No PTO would also give me pause. Also, the concern about the narrower scope of Job A vs the broader scope of Job B is valid.

      2. Hmmm*

        I live in a very expensive city, where you would have to make at least 90K to be able to live comfortably. I’ve talked to my spouse about these offers, and we both agreed that the 16K difference isn’t going to make a huge impact in the short term and that I need to focus on finding the job that will give me the most potential to grow going forward.

        Background info: I am in my late twenties, switching from non profit career to digital marketing. Non profit world didn’t pay well and had no room for me to advance. So, now I feel like it’s crucial to find the perfect launching pad job in marketing, because I’m already so far behind my peers.

        1. Two Dog Night*

          In that case, I’m voting job B, if you could put up with the OT for a year. The wider variety would help you figure out what direction you want to take your career–if you’re only doing email marketing, you might end up pigeonholing yourself.

    2. NotQuiteAnonForThis*

      Can you explain “logically”? Is it because you see B as a more broad opportunity?

      You mention “most”. Is that 51% most or is that 99% most. There’s a significant pay difference, one has a lot of OT (I’m assuming you’d be compensated for OT?), one has unlimited PTO (does that make up for the difference in the salary to you?).

      1. Hmmm*

        Yes, job B can offer more skills and experience in the overall digital marketing world, which I feel is crucial in an entry level job that can open more doors for me.

        In the marketing agency world, it’s incredibly common to be promoted from associate to senior associate within 1-1.5 years. I can’t place a specific percentage, but it’s super common. The OT is compensated, but still doesn’t quite match Job A’s offer. And personally, I’m not super fond of the unlimited PTO policy, but I suppose it’s better than no paid vacation/holiday?

        1. Bobina*

          From your other comments, I would lean towards job B purely because it gives you broader experience which you can then use to decide if you want to focus on a specific area or not. I dont know the field enough, but would job A be pigeonholing you early on?

          1. NotQuiteAnonForThis*

            Absolutely agree with Bobina here. I’m now leaning towards B based on other information provided as well.

    3. Bear Shark*

      My heart says Job A, but with lots of hesitation about the no paid vacation/holidays. Will you be allowed and financially able to take unpaid time off? Are you contract through an agency (so someone else is paying the employer side of taxes, it’s just not e-commerce brand) or is it individual contractor? If you’re paying self-employment taxes that’s really going to eat into the salary differential.

      On Job B are you salaried with no OT pay or would you at least get OT pay? Clicking with the manager is a plus as well but if they promote people quickly you might end up under someone else. I feel like unlimited PTO is kind of a scam, especially in places with tons of OT.

      1. Hmmm*

        Job A is a contract through an agency, so it’s a W2 position with the agency. No need to worry about paying taxes on my own.

        Job B – I agree, I am not fond of the unlimited PTO policy, as people tend to take less PTO and don’t get paid out at the end. 40K is the base salary, but any OT hours would be paid time and a half. HR mentioned this would amount to about 45K-47K total.

    4. A penguin!*

      all of the permanent team starting on the same 1-yr contract isn’t much of a data point, unless you know how many 1-yr contracts didn’t make that conversion.

      between the PTO difference and the OT, the salaries are probably a lot closer than they look as-stated.

      Having said both of those things, it sounds like you prefer job A. Absent a REALLY compelling counter-argument (e.g. if you couldn’t live on the job A salary but could on B) I would take the job I was looking forward to over the meh one almost any day.

      caveat: if you’re particularly new to the work (doesn’t say in your post), I’d be more hesitant to go into a job with a manager who couldn’t articulate answers to questions about training. I’m less worried about not getting an answer about managing style – I always ask about it in my own interviews, but I’ve found even some of the good managers I’ve known/had can’t always answer that one well.

    5. Roja*

      Everyone here seems to be going to for job A, but I dunno, job B looks stronger to me. Less pay, of course, but slightly better health benefits, better stepping stone in the future, better (WAY better) time off, and a good manager. That pay probably levels off somewhat when you add in the holidays/PTO from job B too. Job A might feel more fun from a first look, but will it still be more fun after a year of never taking a single day off (even holidays, what the heck) and a manager who doesn’t know how to manage?

    6. Autumnheart*

      As someone who works for a national retailer in e-commerce, I would absolutely take Job A. First, it pays more. Second, it’s a year contract, so if your manager does suck, you can leave–but she might just be new, and turn out to be okay. (Especially if you ~casually~ mention reading this column.) And third, the name recognition of having worked for that type of company will open you up to a *lot* of positions at similar companies. Retail loves retail experience. Email marketing is also particularly useful, especially if you get to learn how to use something like Salesforce very well–also highly desirable skills.

      1. Hmmm*

        I’m so glad someone in the field read my comment!! Do you feel there’s security in retail/ecomm jobs? I understand that 2020 increased ecomm sales exponentially, but I do wonder about the sustainability of these jobs going forward.

        1. Autumnheart*

          Yes, I do. Absolutely. Physical space is expensive, and the larger retailers are looking at ways to optimize their physical footprint while depending on their online channels to broaden their catalog. It’s a lot easier to make sales efficiently if you just save store space for the things people really want, and keep the majority of your huge-ass catalog of books/movies/video games/vacuum filters/phone cases online only, or ship-to-store.

          I really enjoy this field a lot and have been working in it for 16 years. It’s interesting AF and you learn a lot about the logistics of getting a lot of things to a lot of people. And as I noted, once you work for *a* big retailer, other companies in the industry/similar industries will consider you quite valuable. One example would be healthcare, another would be government.

    7. A Person*

      I’m adjacent to these fields, and another thing to consider is you often have a lot more flexibility of how to direct projects when you’re “in house” vs when you’re at an agency.

      One thing that’s missing from the above for me is whether you have a preference for email marketing vs paid ads (or if you know). If Job A seems fun to you because email marketing seems more fun I say go for that! You can definitely make a career around email marketing (I’ve worked with plenty of marketers with that focus). I’m not in marketing myself so maybe someone else can weigh in on how likely you are to be able to “change your mind” later.

      1. Hmmm*

        My ideal goal is to work in-house, but considering both of these are entry level roles, I won’t have much autonomy to make decisions, so that flexibility on making project decisions isn’t super applicable to me.

        I forgot to mention that Job A is SUPER niche. I would only be working on QAing marketing emails, not the content creation or actual marketing/strategizing. As for the Job B, I have no idea if I would enjoy the work since I’ve never done it before. I know I have the skills to excel, but I’m not sure if I’ll enjoy it.

    8. HR Exec Popping In*

      Which one do you think better aligns with your long term goals? Have you worked for an agency before? Agency experience is very valuable for marketing professionals. Also consider how broad are your skills currently? The Agency job could broaden your skill set. How well known is the retailer? Is it a big reputable name with strong marketing content? Do you already have broad skills and now looking to specialize in email/direct to consumer marketing?

      1. Hmmm*

        Great questions! Background info: I am in my late twenties, switching from non profit career to digital marketing. Non profit world didn’t pay well and had no room for me to advance. So, now I feel like it’s crucial to find the perfect launching pad job in marketing, because I’m already so far behind my peers.

        My long term goals are really broad – I basically want to work in digital marketing or ecommerce, but I don’t have a specific set goal in mind. I’ve never worked at an agency before, but I think my end goal is to work in-house one day. As you mentioned, my marketing skills currently are really limited since I am switching from a completely different sector, so the agency route as a media planning associate might be the best option for me at this stage.

    9. Donkey Hotey*

      I’m old school. I would always take B because the uncertainty of benefits-free temp work gives me hives.

    10. ???*

      If you’re wanting this to be a launching pad to start your future career, wouldn’t it make sense to go for the job that has bigger name recognition and more types of different marketing for you to learn? Especially if money isn’t an issue?
      Plus even though you may not like the unlimited pto policy it’s better than the nothing the other job is offering.

      1. Hmmm*

        I would argue that Job A has a bigger national name recognition (household brand), but Job B has big name recognition only within the marketing world. But yes, I think you’re right. Job B will have more types of marketing outlets and projects for me to advance further.

      1. Autumnheart*

        Well, it’s a contract position, 1099 presumably. And while OP might not get paid vacation, they also wouldn’t be working a bunch of unpaid overtime either.

        1. Hmmm*

          Job A is a W2 position. The contract is done through a temp agency, so I would be considered a temp employee of the agency. Hourly position, OT eligible (but OT is very rare).

          Job B is permanent W2. 40K is the base salary, and any OT is time and a half.

          1. Autumnheart*

            Well, that’s actually good in both cases. In Job A, even if the contract didn’t lead to a hire, you’d qualify for unemployment. Job B, at least you’d get paid for all your hours.

            At this point I think it really just depends on what kind of work you want to do!

    12. The Real Persephone Mongoose*

      Find some quiet time, clear your mind then think about working at Job A. Note how you feel. Then think about working at Job B. Note how you feel. Go with the one that doesn’t make you want to vomit when you think about working there.

    13. MissDisplaced*

      Big agencies are a thing unto themselves and can be cutthroat and demanding and low paid. However, they often offer the opportunity to learn A LOT because you’ll be working on different accounts and doing different, often more cutting edge things, and sometimes later this “agency experience” can help you land a better in-house role down the road. Big companies hire agencies for a reason.

      Job A sounds like you’ll be focusing on one specific thing, but it’s higher paid now.

      It kind of depends on you goal, but if money right now is your main concern, I get taking A. Or, if you are drawn to the retail aspect. But if you’re drawn to learning more overall, spending some time at an agency can be beneficial when building your career.

  20. Giddyup*

    I’m having serious guilt over the fact that I got a bonus this year, but my one of my coworkers reached out to say he hadn’t gotten one (before I had my comp meeting so at that point I assumed none of us would get one). I know the budget was tight and I’m surprised I got anything, but I got the same amount as last year. They’re tied to performance and tbf I know he’s had issues pre-pandemic (even comments from other teams), but the guilt comes from the fact that he has two kids and his partner works outside the home. I don’t have to provide childcare while I’m working and as a result typically take on way more work-not always by choice. I even had to ask for the work to be distributed more evenly because I was working round the clock. Still, I feel pretty bad. This person cares about his work even if he struggles a bit, and he’s also working round the clock with work and domestic duties. Should I feel bad, or if not is there a way to stop beating myself up?

    1. Kittens&Ponies*

      It’s based on performance so why should you feel guilty? If he worked very hard and did fabulous work, that would be unfortunate he didn’t receive a bonus but you still shouldn’t feel guilty because the decision wasn’t yours. Also, people who chose to have kids aren’t more deserving or entitled to money than those who did not.

    2. Observer*

      I suspect that the issue is not that he’s not working around the clock. There are plenty of families with young children where both partners work outside the home, where the parents do excellent work. So, if he was struggling to get his work done before the pandemic either your company piles on too much or he is just not that good. In neither case do you have anything to feel guilty about.

      Although if the issue is that the place is not reasonable in how they allocate work (which sounds possible based on what you’ve described) factor that in when you think about your long term goals.

      1. Giddyup*

        Thanks for this perspective. Your last paragraph is accurate but I’m happy to say that the issue got better once I talked to management (using advice from this column). I can see our pipeline and I and one other person really took the brunt of our end-of-year crunch. They’ve since updated their process and actively solicit feedback on it to ensure everything is divided equally.

    3. Annabeth Nass*

      There’s no reason for you to feel guilty because you didn’t make the decision about the bonuses. If it will help you feel less guilty, you could use some of the money to send him (possibly anonymously) some treats for his family, but it’s certainly not necessary.

    4. Bagpuss*

      Try not to feel guilty – it may be that he had more distractions / outside responsibilities so working from home / working in a pandemic was harder for him than for you, but:

      1. You didn’t make the decisions about bonuses, you getting one is not the reason he didn’t get one

      2. He had issues before the pandemic, so it’s not surprising that he hasn’t qualified for a bonus, and may well not have done so even if Covid hadn’t happened

      3. You have done more / extra work to help take up the slack from people who were less able or less willing. And whatever the reasons for others under performing, it’s fair that you should get some reward for working above and beyond.

    5. Anon4This*

      I also received a bonus this year, though most people at my organization did not. One reason that I got one, other than strong performance, was that I stepped in extensively for someone who simultaneously had a major performance failing and then had a family emergency that prevented them from being the one to right the ship, so to speak. They needed to be with their family, not at work, and I made sure that no one called them during the month-plus they were off – but it was brutal on me both in terms of time and in taking the brunt of the heat for someone else’s failure.

      I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with rewarding the people who are picking up the slack from people waylaid by personal responsibilities, especially if their pre-pandemic performance wasn’t great. I have several folks on my team who have small children and are more badly affected by the pandemic than those of us with older (or no) children. My organization has been very flexible with them, but that means someone had to handle that work to give the flexibility. I have no problem with them being first on the bonus list.

    6. Maggie*

      You did more work, and better! thats what bonuses are for! He still got his regular pay so thats what salaries are for. No need to feel guilty!

      1. Chilipepper*

        This is a great answer! I understand Giddyup’s feelings that she was able to do more bc fewer family obligations so it looked like she did more (she did!) and so got the bonus. But that is exactly what a bonus is for! Honestly, there is no need to feel guilty.

      2. Unfettered scientist*

        exactly! I think bonuses are exactly the kind of recognition that employees who pick up extra slack should receive. The fact that you got bonus is not taking anything away from your coworker.

      3. Giddyup*

        Thank you and the rest of the commenters! This one hits home-I think I was viewing bonuses as part of compensation because in normal times they’re a given. But you’re right- he still gets his salary and I’m getting compensated for extra work I put in. I know this sounds weird but I wasn’t thinking about it that way.

    7. RagingADHD*

      Your guilt is misplaced. You didn’t take the bonus away from him. It’s only natural to feel compassion and concern for someone who’s struggling to care for their family. That’s empathy, and it’s a good thing.

      But there are very good reasons why employers are no longer allowed to give bonuses or raises just because “he has a family to look after.” It has to be based on performance, because the other system just exacerbated discrimination and income inequality.

  21. FearNot*

    Any ideas on how to get people to leave you alone when you’re in a zoom meeting but have a glass door to your office? I’ve been locking my door and putting up a sign, but I’ve had multiple coworkers knock on the door until I answer since they can see me right there. I think “sign blindness” is in play, as they always seem apologetic.

      1. FearNot*

        Hmm, it just says “In a meeting [time frame]”, I didn’t think about putting something like Do Not Disturb on there. I’ll give it a shot! Thanks.

        1. Captain Biggs and Wedge*

          Maybe also print it in bigger font and different colours. Some people might have not seen it clearly and assumed it was your title card or a generic poster.

          1. Policy Wonk*

            +1. I would also have a few different signs and change them up from meeting to meeting. As you noted, some people are blind to signs that have been there for a while. Thus if yesterday’s was in blue with an emoji, today’s green with a photo will be noticed. Different sizes or shapes might also help.

        2. CTT*

          I’ve found making that distinction works – I also have glass walls in my office and a lot of people in my office have conference calls where they may be on mute the whole time, so that has led to a culture of “if you look like you’re not leading the call, I will knock and see if I can slip in and drop off something for you”

    2. Web Crawler*

      Tape a bright piece of paper to a stick that says I’M IN A MEETING or PLEASE COME BACK LATER. Hold it up when somebody knocks on your door. (This is only a halfway serious suggestion)

    3. Zephy*

      Is the door entirely glass or does it just have a window? Are you able to cover the window somehow, with blinds or paper or something?

        1. Admin of Sys*

          Any chance you can hang a curtain to let you optionally opaque the entire door? Or a really long blind to pull down? Folks may not ‘notice’ the sign, but if the entire door is blocked off, it may cue them in a bit more.

        2. LegendaryBobcatTaxidermy**

          they also make stick on film that blurs the glass – you can get a roll and cut to size. search “frosted privacy window film” – you just wet it and stick it on there. easy to peel off, doesn’t leave any glue or anything either. it’s about $25 for a roll.

          1. Grace Less*

            Management at my office would lose their minds if anyone covered the glass. They are exceptionally proud of the human terrariums.
            We don’t have issues with interruptions because there is zero soundproofing, so the whole wing knows when you’re in a Zoom meeting…

      1. Glitsy Gus*

        Yep, when I was in my cube on a call and someone walked over I would point at my headset and shake my head. That usually got the point across pretty well. If you aren’t wearing a headset, then maybe point at your monitor or even just your ear? The head shake is really the important part. Along with adding “Do Not Disturb” or something to your sign should work together pretty well.

        Some folks will still be oblivious, but that should help with your average knockers who are just going on impulse.

    5. Bagpuss*

      I’d put a big red ‘DO NOT DISTURB’ and then put – meeting in progress – please do not knock or enter’ underneath.

      Make sure to remove it when the meeting is over – maybe even have an alternate one that’s in green and says ‘Please knock and enter’ – people may react better to having two distinct alternatives !

      Sadly people do ignore signs -I normally have my door open, except when it’s really cold. I made a sign which says the door is closed for warmth, please come in if you need me – and still get people leaving things outside the door for me rather than either knocking or coming in !

      1. fhqwhgads*

        It says they have been locking the door. The goal is to stop people knocking anyway, despite the already present sign.

    7. JHB*

      Display the sign at eye level, use bright colors, and explicitly include: “DO NOT DISTURB”. You might also want to search Google for “Do not disturb signs, virtual meeting” and then look at IMAGES. Lots of examples.

      I generally add graphics, likely the “Shhhhh” smiley face or a picture of a person with headphones in a meeting.

      Do you want/like having clear glass? If you want to cover it or maybe break it up, there are many kinds of privacy film that make for a nice option. Here’s one example: https://tinyurl.com/y4squxtf.

    8. Donkey Hotey*

      All these plus the bonus of following up after the meeting with a “Dude, really?” to the knocker.
      A small amount of embarrassment goes a long way.

    9. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Let them knock as long as they want… do you use a headset (so it won’t be audible to the people on the other end of the call)? If asked about it later, “sorry I must not have heard you knocking as I was on a call” I think you would only need to do this once or twice to get the message through.

  22. Captain Biggs and Wedge*

    Question to folks, if you send out an invite to your colleagues to contribute to some boss mandated fun (in this case, a company fun photo montage board), and you aren’t getting much entries, do you send out a reminder? Or do you just accept the entries you already have and count those as a small win?
    Out of 60 staff members, I only got 5 entries (counting my own). I kinda want to send out a reminder (hey guys remember to gimme your photos), but 1) I don’t want to nag a bunch of grown ass adults 2) it’s not that important 3) maybe they just aren’t interested. But on the other hand, 5 entries would make the montage board look a bit pathetic.

    1. Web Crawler*

      I appreciate follow up emails for fun things. The organizer in my office sends them and it makes me more likely to contribute, especially when I saw the first email and wanted to join but immediately forgot.

      1. Captain Biggs and Wedge*

        Man, thanks for the vote of confidence Web Crawler. Guess there is no harm in sending one reminder. :-)

    2. ladymacdeath*

      I think one reminder is acceptable! Also if you can ask people in person/over the phone/after a meeting/over Zoom, that will probably be more fruitful than a faceless email! Just keep it super nice and pleasant and don’t nag.

    3. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      Are any of the 5 entries particularly interesting? If you can point to it as in, “we’ve had a picture of [insert example] and can’t wait to see what else is out there” it may encourage people to think about a specific entry of their own.

      Don’t go overboard though, a follow up email is completely warranted but you don’t want it to be eight paragraphs long either.

    4. Bagpuss*

      I’d say on follow up is OK, but don’t chase beyond that. It will catch those who are willing to / intended to join in but overlooked it or forgot, and hopefully means that those who are not interested and are ignoring it on purpose don’t get too annoyed.

      And if the showing is poor, maybe that will feed back to the boss that this isn’t something that the majority of employees are interested / see as fun, so she can suggest something different another time.

      (I have to admit, I would probably be in the ‘delete and ignore’ camp, unless I felt that not participating would negatively affect my standing at work, although assuming that your original e-mail was clear you were acting on Boss’s instructions I would be irritated at them, not you, if I got multiple follow up e-mails! I think if you are speaking to someone directly (phone or zoom) anyway, asking them in the conversation is fine, but I wouldn’t make a specific call (unless of course your Boss instructs you to) as I think that would tp over into being more annoying that fruitful.

    5. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I oversee a lot of this stuff for our office and reminders are key! I think, especially for something that requires staff contributions, it’s helpful to let people know others have already contributed. So many times, people delay responding to these things because they don’t want to be the first one — but if they know others have kicked things off, they’re more likely to add on.

      FWIW, I have sent out multiple reminders and I think so long as they are upbeat and brief, it’s not a big deal.

    6. Rusty Shackelford*

      One reminder is fine – this is the kind of thing that I would file away under “things to think about later,” and never think about it again.

    7. Workerbee*

      I’d be tempted not to follow up, and let the lack of enthusiasm show the boss that this kind of mandated fun was ill-conceived.

    8. ginger ale for all*

      I notice in my organization that people do not like to submit photos of themselves but they love to submit photos of their pets. Maybe you can have a pet themed montage?

    9. CDM*

      is it possible to have the montage be a dynamic one, so others can add to it as they have time and inclination? Ours sort of grew organically (out of a situation where Lucinda plastered the office with pics of Jane’s newborn while no pics were posted of Wakeen’s newborn, and we need to fix that before Wakeen comes back from parental leave tomorrow) and now we have the “Wall of Awesome” with kid pics, holiday pics, pet pics, graduation pics and a “birth” announcement for a college intern. Anyone is free to add a new one wherever there is space or replace an older one with an updated pic. We get monthly update pics of Wakeen’s daughter. No deadlines, no pressure, and 18 months in, we have about 80% participation. It’s nice.

    10. Sabine the Very Mean*

      Yep I vote for sending out reminders. Maybe even include some fun pics that will help spur creativity of the staff. I need the reminders and the inspiration for these things. Remind away, Captain!

    12. allathian*

      One email reminder is OK. Maybe another in a meeting. More than that would probably be perceived as nagging. You want to be able to show your boss that you tried, but that the boss mandated fun didn’t go down well.

      In this case, given that there are only 5 participants, so unless your boss is completely tone deaf about these things, they should realize that a company montage board isn’t very high on people’s list of priorities. It’s much harder to opt out of mandated fun (what an oxymoron!) without adverse consequences when the vast majority wants to participate. But it’d be weird to impose consequences on your employees when it’s just a case where a “fun idea” went down like a lead balloon.

  23. Green Snickers*

    Has anyone ever been hit with an unexpectedly bad review at the end of the year? Like flagged for needing improvement even though you haven’t been spoken to about any issues?

    My boss doesn’t give feedback during the year despite my repeated requests to do so so my end of year review is always a point of anxiety for me. Even though I’m almost 2 years into my job, I’m extremely insecure about my performance as I work with a new practice that is still finding their footing. I’m used to have pretty clear deliverables and this job is anything but. I feel like I do the everyday parts of my job well and I do work hard so I’m not micromanaged but I think my boss would like to see more strategy and leadership direction from me. After everything this year, I’d be happy to come away with all ‘meetings expectations’ but can’t shake the fear that I’m going to get hit out of the blue with something bad. Just wondering if this is my anxiety running wild!

    1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      Ask! You can set up an informal meeting to say “I feel good about the job I’m doing with A, but I’ve been here almost 2 years now and I don’t have a good sense of how much you expect on strategy B. Can we talk this through a bit to make sure we’re aligned on expectations?”

    2. Slipping The Leash*

      I can’t help with your anxiety but understand your frustration! I’ve been at my job for 21 years and have never had a review — in the early days this really, REALLY freaked me out (we’re salary plus bonus based, and eventually I cornered my boss who shrugged and said, “I hate doing reviews. I just say it with cash.” After a couple of years of fat bonuses I decided I was fine and to just not worry about it any more).

      I suggest being subtle about your feedback requests and do it on a small scale throughout the year: “Lola, I finished the teapot report. Let me know if you’d like any changes to the format — otherwise I’ll continue to do them that way going forward.” “Lola, I set up the client management system like this — does it work with your overall vision of how things should be organized?” If you make it simple for your boss to give you a fast but still useful answer on how things are going, it might put your mind at ease.

    3. Can Can Cannot*

      You have a bad boss. Given that one of the top reason for leaving a job is having a bad boss, you might want to think about looking for a better job with a better boss that can provide meaningful feedback and help you grow in your career. Your current boss is not helping you.

    4. Glitsy Gus*

      I think there are two things here. As some other folks said, while your boss doesn’t like to give general feedback, it is probably a good idea to ask directly about specifics. Take the things that were marked “needs improvement and just directly ask if you have improved. “Fergus, last year you had indicated you wanted me to improve my performance when it comes to analyzing the teapot size metrics. I have been working on that, so I want to check in with you there and see if I’m where you want to be or if there are still things you’d like to see change.”

      Also, remember that a performance review shouldn’t be a one-way conversation. If they say you need improvement on something and you need clarification there, ask! “OK, so, you have marked ‘needs improvement’ under taking initiative on new tasks. That’s a little surprising to me. Can we go into more detail there? What kind of things are you looking for that I’m not doing already?” Then the once you’ve set that out, don’t be afraid to ask again three months later to see if you’re on track. It’s unfortunate that you need to manage up like this; but if your manager won’t supply the information it’ll be in your best interests to see it out a little, even if you do it a bit more informally.

    5. Donkey Hotey*

      I had a boss like this. Twice in twelve years, I got very unexpected “you’re doing terrible” reviews when nothing had changed in my performance. First time, (second year on the job) I made a specific point of setting up meetings with the boss – monthly for the first quarter and quarterly after that, to check in and discuss performance, set identifiable and measurable goals, etc. Second time, (twelfth year on the job) I realized her bad reviews had nothing to do with my performance and were an excuse to avoid giving a COL raise and trim the budget. I started updating my resume and had a new job in eight months.

    6. RC Rascal*

      I had this happen. It was my terrible boss trying to scapegoat me for his own issues and paper my file so he could fire me. In my case he left a majority of my accomplishments out of the review as well as several of my major duties. ( Scope of the role has drastically increased). I wrote a very specific rebuttal to the review which really passed him off. I ended up hiring a. Attorney and making discrimination charges. All my reviews previous to this were very good.

      Your boss is a jerk. An underperforming employee should never get this information for the first time at the review. My guess is he wants someone different in the role & is setting you up for termination.

  24. Marie*

    Did anybody get any work done on the 20th? I had a full day meeting, but was watching the inauguration on a second screen.

    1. DataGirl*

      Very little. I was a ball of nerves most of the day, alternating between relief/hope and fear that something bad would happen.

    2. ThatGirl*

      I had a few meetings I was doing my best to focus on, but on top of everything else, my dog had a seizure and threw up during one of them. So that distracted me as much as anything. (He’s fine!) I’m still new at my job so luckily I wasn’t super busy with work stuff…

    3. NJBi*

      I was very fortunately able to take the afternoon off (East Coast). Crammed in as much as I could in the morning, did the last hour with the inaugural ceremonies on the TV while I worked on my laptop, and logged off before 1. Honestly, I was worried that something like on the 6th would happen–whether at the Capitol or elsewhere in the country–and knew that if that was the case, I’d certainly not get any work done, so may as well plan ahead by keeping my schedule clear… It was nice to be able to watch the virtual parade and stuff live, and fortunately no anxious PBS NewsHour stress-watching this Wednesday!

      1. Jaid*

        I did get a lot of work done, but I also was streaming CNN for a couple of hours on my work computer. I watched some of the virtual parade when I got home.

        I was worried about snipers. :-(

    4. CTT*

      The two boards I’m on both meet on the third Wednesday of the month, so it was never going to be a super-productive day regardless, but it was even less productive since I was able to watch the stupid ceremonies between meetings.

    6. HB*

      I spent most the day talking about the inauguration and sharing Bernie memes with my coworkers. My supervisor was out that day too so we all just sort of chilled out. It was a nice break from the stress everyone’s been under.

    7. Captain Marvel*

      Very little work. Luckily most people in my organization were doing the same thing I was and anxiously watching to make sure it went well.

    8. RagingADHD*

      Nope. I had an important call scheduled for that day, and at the last minute they postponed it to the 21st. I don’t know the reason, but I was sooooo glad.

    9. NotAnotherManager!*

      This is the first inauguration I’ve not had off in about two decades – our DC-based office usually closes because of the proximity to the festivities and security measures, but, since we’re working from home, they decided not to formally close this time (though even voluntary entry to the building was completely out of the question for the past week, given the security presence). I blocked my schedule for the actual ceremony and left the other festivities playing in the background for the rest of the day and just turned the volume down/off if I had a call or meeting.

    10. Can't Sit Still*

      I had to schedule several meetings and follow up on a few things in the morning, but there were virtually no IMs, emails or calls between 11:30 am and 2 pm EST. I was able to watch the inauguration until my boss started calling around 2 pm. I didn’t get any responses to emails, etc. until yesterday morning, so it seems most of my team was watching as well. I feel like I was as productive as could be expected.

    11. Donkey Hotey*

      I wasn’t able to watch it live, so I watched an abbreviated version (yay time zone differences). I was a sniffly weepy mess for about an hour. But suffice to say, I got more done on the 20th than on the 6th.

    12. Sabine the Very Mean*

      I had to work until late that night because I watched all the morning stuff. So amazing that we get to watch these events.

    13. Middle Manager*

      Luckily, I have a lot of comp time to use up, so I took an extended lunch and watched without trying to also work. I had a 1pm meeting and had to re-do my make up though, since I made the mistake of wearing eyeliner…

    14. Allura Vysoren*

      I was surprised how much work I got done in the morning. My wife called out of work but I went because I figured that work would be just as distracting as anything else. We’re both WFH and usually I work out of the basement, but I brought my work laptop to the couch for most of the day so I could watch the proceedings. I ended up taking an early lunch because I started crying over the inauguration. The afternoon…very little. I was prepared to take PTO the rest of the day if anything terrible happened, but I didn’t think about how hard it would be to focus over the sheer overwhelming *relief* of it going well.

  25. vaccination consternation*

    Inspired by this week’s post about the CEO trying to get early access to the vaccine and some of the comments. Has anyone else not received clear information about their COVID vaccination eligibility? How did your workplace handle it? What did you do? How do you feel about it?

    I work at a community mental health org that provides mental health and addiction services and runs a mental health crisis response team, but we also provide tons of non-clinical social services. We see Medicaid eligible folks and many of clients lack reliable phone or internet, so most services have been in person during the pandemic. Org leadership kept asking local gov what priority group we fall into, but they refused to give a response. They eventually decided 1a (includes ancillary healthcare workers) and encouraged us to go sign up to be vaccinated. I would have assumed we were 1b (includes community outreach workers) or 1c (“other” essential workers not categorized). But I went ahead and got my first dose anyway during 1a three weeks ago, and get my second dose next week. I said on the online registration system I worked in ancillary health services and brought my work badge to the appointment just in case, worrying I’d get pushback, but the only thing they checked was my health insurance. Now my area has moved onto phase 1b, which also includes anyone 65+, and the rollout has been an absolute clusterfudge in my area. My coworkers who did not sign up during 1a are having a lot of trouble getting appointments now. At first I felt a little bad about getting vaccinated so early because I am in my 20s and healthy. But I’ve spent 10 1/2 months providing important in-person services, sometimes to people who have refused to wear masks, and there have been multiple COVID cases on staff, so I’ve been able to let go a lot of that guilt. Interested to hear about the experiences of others!

    1. anonymous for secret reasons*

      My partner works for the federal government in a role where they’re WFH, but others in their position do face to face essential work, and they could technically be put in a f2f role at any time. It’s been an absolute cluster. First the department said no doses were available from the department, you’d have to go through regular local channels. OK, fine. Then dept said there were doses available at specific sites (just a few for the entire country… none accessible to my partner). Good for those people though, I guess? Weird that they’re changing the rules but this still seems good? Then they said that everyone in this position should be classified as 1a, so my partner contacted the state vaccine coordinating group to have their pre-registration changed from 1c (where they had been assigned) to 1a. So now they’re registered in 1a, but neither the state registry, nor the medical group running the super site where they has ALSO preregistered, has contacted to register an appointment, opened a portal to pick an appointment online, opened a phone line… nothing. The guidance for my partner’s workplace has changed from “you’re general public” all the way to “you’re 1a” but the fact of the matter is, it’s still not possible to find a place where they’ll put the shot in the arm!

      I 100% agree that you shouldn’t feel guilt in this situation–the rollout has been very chaotic and had a lot of problems, and anyone who gets a shot (except for like, the conniving CEO…) is morally in the clear. Better to have the shot in your arm, so that soon you can more safely provide services and protect the people who you serve as well as your neighbors etc., than to have that dose not be used.

      1. Chilipepper*

        What is the 1a, 1b, 1c classifications several of you are mentioning? Is that local to you or a nationwide thing?

        1. ThatGirl*

          I believe those are national classifications — basically breaking the first group of eligible people down further into smaller subgroups, to help states figure out how to prioritize.

        3. vaccination consternation*

          Yup, these are the national recommendations, but states ultimately have final say on prioritization. I know Florida and Texas for example have opted to prioritize seniors over most non-hospital essential workers.

    2. Bye Academia*

      I can definitely relate! I work in higher ed in a position where most of my tasks can’t be done remotely. Where I live, they were originally defining 1b as “teachers and education workers”, which I thought would include me. However, when they later broke it down, they included everyone who works in K-12 schools, but only in-person college instructors. Our union is trying to argue that “in-person college instructors” should also include in-person college professional staff (me), but hasn’t gotten clarification yet.

      In your case, I wouldn’t feel guilty about taking it. Working at a community mental health org with direct patient/client contact seems like a pretty clear priority to me! Plus, being too granular about the groups is slowing down administration. At a certain point, we just have to do the best we can while getting shots in arms. Some of my friends who work remotely in admin for K-12 schools have gotten vaccinated already while I’m still waiting, but I honestly don’t mind. I’m happy they’re protected now, and I just hope my turn will come soon.

    3. vaccination consternation*

      Yeah I don’t really feel bad anymore. It’s generally agreed upon by bioethicists and medical providers that people with direct contact with COVID patients and nursing home residents should get vaccinated first, and healthy individuals who have the ability to work from home (even if it’s not ideal) should get vaccinated last. But there’s no real consensus on how to prioritize everyone else, which is a HUGE chunk of the population. And the strategy that the U.S. has taken so far certainly ain’t it. I’m optimistic that the new administration will be better, but I also think it could take several weeks to a month before things start going smoothly and am skeptical the 100 million vaccines in 100 days plan will actually pan out. But I’d love to be wrong. I hope anonymous that your partner and Bye Academia that you get vaccinated soon!

    4. Fluffernutter*

      I work for a big healthcare company that owns a bunch of hospitals so I’ve been lucky to have been able to rely on their communications regarding vaccines since they are the ones responsible for vaccinating the employees. They split all employees into different waves and we get vaccinated according to the waves. I honestly haven’t even been looking at my state vaccine schedule since my company is so on top of things. I am a remote employee but if they say I can get it, I can get it. (I’m signed up to get it tomorrow!)

    5. Minimal Pear*

      It’s not even work-related but just in general I should qualify as an early-ish candidate for health reasons but I have no idea if they’ll count me in the 2+ conditions group or the 1 condition group. (I do think I should be counted as having two, but one of said conditions is obscure and might not be included because the people making the list don’t know about it.)

    6. Chilipepper*

      I’m in Florida, so no, no information other than you have to be 65 and over and maybe medical staff can get it – but police, fire, and other front-line workers cannot. And actually anyone 65 and over cannot get it because the systems for making an appointment are all broken (but are coming online soon).

      I work in an agency that helps people make appointments for things like this and we have almost no information.

    7. Donkey Hotey*

      Well not from my workplace. But even my state has been providing mixed messages, which is frustrating because we’ve been doing relatively well (Washington state.)
      For months, we’ve been told “if you work in (essential industry), you are in group X.” I go to the signup website and they say to qualify for group X you have to “work in (essential industry) and are be in unavoidable groups less than 6′ from others for more than six hours a day.” Those… are two different standards. Meanwhile, I have been 100% work in the office since May.

  26. Another day another payroll questions*

    Is it legal for a company to withhold their portion of the withholding out of your pay?

    They have done this before on bonuses, and they just say that our actual bonus is actually the smaller number, but this time, I actually have a contract that states exactly what the bonus is, and I don’t understand how they can reduce it by the payroll taxes, that seems like it would be really really illegal.

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I’m not sure exactly what you’re asking.

      If you get a bonus of $5000, and there’s tax withholdings or other items (401k, etc) of $1k, then you’re going to actually get $4k in cash. This is normal and fine. Now, if the company withholds the $1k but doesn’t actually disburse that money to the appropriate places, that’s illegal and a huge problem.

      1. Who moved my cheese?*

        I think they’re saying, they have a contract saying they’ll get a $D bonus and they expected to get $D to take home, but the company gave them ($C which = $D minus withholding). In the past the company has just said “your bonus is $C” instead of “your bonus is $D but we’ll take out withholding, so you net $C.”

        Are you sure this is “normal and fine” in every situation? Is there any way Another Day’s contract could have been written that means they really actually should take home $D? Just curious.

        1. I'm A Little Teapot*

          In my experience (US based), bonsus, pay rates, etc are expressed as gross amounts. IE, before taxes and other withholdings are taken out as the norm. On rare occasions, I have seen things be grossed up, but it is explicitly stated as such.

          1. Another day another payroll questions*

            No, it was expressed as gross, I totally expected to pay the employee portion of payroll taxes. But they have also charged me with the additional 7.65% of employer payroll taxes. So virtually 8% of the gross they promised just evaporated.

            1. PollyQ*

              That seems very wrong, so much so that I have to think you’re either misunderstanding or that they made a mistake. I’d double-check the stub to make sure it’s saying what you think it is, and if it still looks wrong, go to payroll and ask for clarification.

    2. Elspeth*

      Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are asking but it seems legal and normal to me.
      Example of what I am thinking – your contract states that you get a $10k bonus – they pay you a $10k bonus which after taxes/other withholdings comes to $7500. They still paid you a $10k bonus. They’re not under any obligation to gross up the bonus so that your net is $10k. Or am I off base and they are doing something entirely different?

    3. Another day another payroll questions*

      Let me clarify further. Say my bonus was announced as $10K, they are pulling out the 7.65% of employer taxes from that, making my gross bonus, where all MY withholdings and the like are calculated from $9,235. So my “gross” is lower by their portion of the withholding.

      1. Elspeth*

        Yeah that does seem sketchier than I was imaging, I apologize for misreading your original post. Not sure of the legality but it doesn’t sit right with me.

      2. Autumnheart*

        Sounds normal to me. Bonuses are taxable income. I’m sure they do the same with your paycheck.

        1. Natalie*

          The poster is talking about the employER half of payroll taxes, which (as the name suggests) have to be paid by the employer, not withheld from the employee’s paycheck.

      3. I'm A Little Teapot*

        Yeah, that’s sketchy. Not sure if it’s actively illegal, but it would make me rethink how long I wanted to work for that company for sure. However, if you do some googling for the payroll laws in your location you should be able to figure out what the law actually says.

      5. Natalie*

        I can’t speak to the contract part, but taxwise whether or not it’s legal depends on how they are reporting it on their and your tax documents. If the gross amount of the bonus they report to the IRS and SSA is $9,325, and that’s the amount that ultimately ends up on your W2, that’s legal but strange. But if the gross amount they report is $10,000, then they’re making an improper withholding.

        1. Five after Midnight*

          +1
          This is the correct answer. :-) Now, as far as the contract goes, if it explicitly states the gross amount of bonus to be $10k (as in your example), then you likely have a civil action for a breach of contract. But they are not breaking any laws, just a contract. It’s definitely dodgy, but not illegal.

    4. A penguin!*

      It’s likely to depend on the wording of your contract. As long as they’re paying (to you, your benefits, the government) the amount of the bonus they should be legal, barring specific language in the contract that says otherwise.

      Some of my companies have scaled up what they pay such that the bonus I receive is the number indicated; some have paid the number indicated and after various factions take their cut the number I received has been lower. Neither is ‘standard’ in my experience.

    5. Observer*

      If I’m understanding you, not only is is acceptable, it’s actually legally required if you are in the US. If you are an employee any wages, whether regular hourly pay or bonuses, are subject ot standard withholding. It’s annoying, but the taxes need to be paid, like it or not.

      2. Another day another payroll questions*

        It’s not my withholding, it is their withholding. Companies have a portion of taxes that they have to pay, that is completely separate from the withholding they hold out of your check. There is an employer and an employee portion of payroll taxes. They are charging both to me.

    6. LadyByTheLake*

      I agree with “I’m A Little Teapot” — I’m not quite sure what you are asking. If they say you are going to get a $5000 bonus, then they have to exclude taxes (including social security) from that. Your net will be less than $5000. That is appropriate and legal and actually the only way they can do it.
      Now, if you are asking whether they can deduct THEIR portion of the Social Security from your pay, the answer is no. SS is paid half by the employee and half by the employer. Your half is deducted from your paycheck (along with federal withholding). The employer can’t also take their half of the SS out of your paycheck. But it doesn’t sound like that is what is happening.

    7. Another day another payroll questions*

      Update: I’ve approached the C-suite HR guy, and he has assures me it is legal, but I’ve asked him to provide me with documentation that bonuses are different from wages in this regard, because I know that charging the employee with the employer half of payroll taxes on wages is illegal. I’m very interested to see what he comes up with (he said it will take a while, which you’d think they’d have these things to hand if it is the policy) but I still don’t believe it.

      (I’m “that” employee. They all know I question everything, lol, so don’t worry on my behalf for jumping straight at HR with “illegal”).

      1. NotAnotherManager!*

        Employers have the discretion to treat bonuses as supplemental income rather than wages (see IRS Publication 15 (2020), sec. 7 and examples 2 and 3), but that treatment is a separate issue from having the employee pay the employer portion of the payroll tax. IANAL, but I don’t think that’s legal.

        Your employer should have someone who can explain their withholding to you, including whether they are treating the bonus as wages (taxed on the usual scale) or supplemental income (federal tax of flat 22% under $1M, 37% for $1M+, plus any additional payroll or state withholding). Some employers also “gross up” bonuses to ensure the employee gets the full bonus amount. My regular bonuses are taxed as supplemental raises, but we’ve received a few “special bonuses” that are adjusted so we take home the intended amount.

        1. Another day another payroll questions*

          They are doing it as supplemental income, using the flat 22% bonus rate. But that’s aside from this whole issue. The original amount they sent on the bonus payout scheudule, which state exactly how much we are to receive each of the 3 payout dates, is not the gross amount on the check. So no deduction to explain, they simply deducted it from the total before it even hit the paycheck. So tax wise, they should be good, ie only considering wages the number after they pulled out their portion of the payroll taxes. But it still doesn’t seem right that I should be ‘penalized’ for their portion of the taxes. It may be legal, there is some jargon in the plan (which I will say they refused to let me see when I was signing the contract and I had to go to three different c-suite officers to get it) which could be construed to say that they can pull their portion out, but it could just have easily meant the regular withholding (which is how I originally read it, prior to this development). At the very least, they have been guilty of a supremely stupid PR issue, as in if they were planning to deduct this all along, they should have updated the payment schedule to include it so everyone wasn’t making their decision to accept the program or not with flat out wrong details.

      2. BRR*

        This question is really interesting to me. So IANAL but it sounds like it would be illegal if your bonus is in a contract and is black and white. If there’s any type of discretionary language anywhere it would probably be an uphill battle for you. I hope you’ll update us on the developments.

    8. HRBee*

      Are you saying that they are withholding both the Employee AND Employer portion of taxes from your bonus? That’s most definitely NOT OK. I cant for sure say its illegal because its so crazy I’ve never even considered it before, but I am 99% sure it has to be illegal. There’s a reason its the employER portion. Its theirs, not yours.

      1. Another day another payroll questions*

        That’s what I’m saying, and that’s exactly my gut reaction.

        Family accountant doesn’t know of any law that would support this either. I think they’ve gotten around this in the past by not announcing the bonus amount, and just telling us the number is whatever the number is after their portion comes out. I don’t think they can do that this time, and I don’t think they are going to like that at all. For the entire bonus structure, that a LOT of money. :sigh:

    10. no name*

      Bonuses, just like any other compensation, are required to be taxed. If I am getting a $x bonus from my company, they actually give me $y which is $x after taxes are taken out. But they are going above and beyond by doing that. I think that as long as your bonus is whatever number your contract says BEFORE taxes, they are acting legally. Just like if your salary is $50,000/year, you don’t actually take home $50,000/year.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t see how we can pay someone else’s taxes FOR THEM. They would have to show our payment of their taxes as income to them.

      Not much different than if the employer said we had to pay for cases of TP. The employer would have to show that the employees paid that expense as a credit or income on their books.

      1. RagingADHD*

        Well, you can in some ways. I did this in the other direction as the employer when I was settling a relative’s estate.

        Her household help worked under the table, but in the last year of relative’s life, she’d been paying by check and I had to show those payments in the estate accounting and final tax return. And on the advice of my accountant, we needed to make sure everything was kosher with the IRS in terms of withholding.

        I didn’t want the helper to wind up with an unexpected tax bill (especially since it was pretty clear she wasn’t paying taxes on any of her income from other jobs, either). So the estate paid both halves of the income tax, and we treated the amounts paid by check as her “net.” This effectively increased her wages on paper but was a wash to her.

        The IRS didn’t care as long as they got their money and all the boxes were ticked.

    12. HR Exec Popping In*

      Ask payroll to explain the deductions. They are used to those type of questions and are happy to explain. Also, the name of each deduction may not be exactly what the deduction is. For example, in Washington state there is a payroll tax that pays for state LOA. A portion of this is paid by the company and a portion is paid by the employee. The wording my company’s payroll department put in the system and was printed out on paystubs was very confusing to our workforce. I think it was something like LOA deduction which people thought was that they were paying back money for taking a leave. My point is, ask payroll what specifically the line item is and they will tell you.

      1. Another day another payroll questions*

        I have spoken to HR/payroll. The thing is it isn’t a deduction. They gave us a schedule of what our payment would be, and the gross amount on the paystub is less than that amount, which people naturally freaked out about. So they told us the difference was that they pulled the employer portion of the payroll taxes out of the original number before creating our paychecks. It’s basically not on paper at all. What I have is a payment schedule that says one thing, and a paycheck that says another.

  27. Tech Writer*

    If anyone has signed a letter of intent before, how long does it take for the employer to get back, and is it a signal the employer has the contract? I recently finished an interview with two rounds, and the hiring manager and program director were on the second round. I emailed them earlier on 1/19/2021 asking about the status of the update, and was told that they had sent the information over to the client and would know sometime this week. After that email, the recruiter and HR had me sign a letter of intent but I’ve heard nothing back.

    I’m worried that the employer may not have the contract, even though it sounded like they already did during the interview and is signing a letter of intent before hiring someone usual?

    1. I need coffee before I can make coffee*

      A LOI does not mean they have the contract. It’s something they use to hopefully improve their standing in the competition. They can basically say to the source selection committee “look, we will have this specific person on board if we win”. It does kind of commit them to hiring you if they win. Otherwise they have to explain to the contracting office why you’re not there. That’s my experience anyway.

      1. Tech Writer*

        Oh I see. It’s my first time signing a letter of intent, and what they told me was (paraphrased here) that they had the contract, and the recruiter told me that they had sent my information over to the client, and awaiting approval. After that, they’d send me the official offer letter.

        I thought letters of intent usually meant the company already had the contract, but thanks so much for clarifying it!

    2. Skeeder Jones*

      I’ve only ever signed letters of intent when being recruited as a contract employee through an agency and I had to sign that before they could send my information to the client.

  28. DataGirl*

    Any Data Scientists or Data Analysts here? I’m looking to get into the field and wondering what the best path is. I have about 10 years experience in Database Administration/Development/Design. My most recent job of 3 years I have a title of DBA but my daily work is mostly reporting and end user tech support. I’ve reached a point where I need to move on and do some retraining, but I really don’t want to be a DBA anymore. My favorite part of my work is the data analysis, so I’d like to pivot my career into that area. I currently work in medical education and am also interested in staying in the field of medicine. I’d love any tips on the best way to pursue this- should I go back to University for another degree (currently have a MLIS which is pretty useless)? Take paid certification courses? Just do free classes on Coursera or some other platform and hope that’s good enough? Also- what are the biggest differences between Data Science and Data Analysis? Is one field more competitive/more difficult/better compensated? Thanks in advance for any advice!

    1. AndersonDarling*

      You could probably apply for Jr. Data Analyst jobs at the big healthcare systems in your area, if you are in a city area. They tend to be able to train Analysts and your DBA background would qualify you. You would likely be making a lot less $$, but you could springboard to another job after a year or two of experience.
      The main diff between Data Analytics and Data Science is descriptive analytics and predictive analytics. A Data Analyst builds reports on historical data to help people make decisions. A Data Scientists builds algorithms to predict the future.
      I’ve done Data Analytics and Data Visualization of 10 years and got my degree in Data Science. I’ll be lurking around if you have follow up questions!

      1. DataGirl*

        Unfortunately I can’t really do a lot less $$. A little pay cut would be okay for a while, but I’m the only one paying the bills. Do you think any kind of degree or certifications would help me move into a less Jr. role?

        Thanks for explaining the difference between Data Analytics and Science. I’m definitely more used to the analysis side, looking at the data to try to make recommendations for improvements and I’d be comfortable staying in that lane.

    2. EMP*

      In my experience (software, used to work adjacent to a data science team but not with them), free classes don’t speak much on a resume unless it’s for a very concrete skill (like a specific programming language that you can then demonstrate) or supplementing an existing certificate or degree, just because there is minimal accountability. Free+ like EdX where you can pay a small amount (~$50) for a certificate is a bit better because then you can point to a grade/completion certificate that shows the hiring manager you did the work.

      I have seen certificate programs for things like data science designed to be completed in a year or so. I can’t speak to any particular courses reputation or cost effectiveness but I would look into something like that before doing another degree program since you already have work experience in a related field.

      1. DataGirl*

        Thank you. I’m currently taking a free math class on Coursera to try and dip my feet in, and they have full (paid) courses in Data Analytics and Data Science, but I’m not sure how something like that compares on a resume as to something directly through a University/College. I worry that it falls a little into ‘University of Phoenix’ territory.

    3. Parenthesis Dude*

      I feel like the difference between data science and data analytics is the methods used. Data scientists use more sophisticated methods and are required to have strong statistical skills. Based on your background, you’d almost certainly need a masters (I wouldn’t recommend a second bachelors) in something more math based to have a chance at being a data scientist. Data scientists earn more than data analysts – due to their stronger math background.

      Data analytics is where I’d look if I were you. Your SQL background probably makes you competitive for some of these roles. But having an ability to use either Tableau or Excel or program in some programming language would probably also be necessary. If you have an ability to do something other than SQL, you can probably just apply for jobs. Otherwise, I think you’re going to have find a way to improve your skills at either data visualization or programming and can do that by either taking courses online or more schooling.

      1. Bobina*

        This. Maybe its my industry, but for me, data science is specific to people with a good amount of technical knowledge around big data, statistics, modelling, AI/ML etc.

        Your background however seems very suited to pivot into data analysis. Depending on the kind of reporting you’ve done and the tools you’ve used in addition to SQL, you could start looking at those kinds of jobs straight away, or maybe brush up on some courses around Tableau or Power BI, build a couple of dashboards at work and you’re good to go.

        1. Cedrus Libani*

          Agreed. If you want to do predictive analytics, that’s likely to involve a trip back to school – but there are plenty of jobs at the analyst level for people who can turn data into useful descriptions of reality, and that mostly involves skills a DBA would know (SQL queries, basic scripting, the inevitable clean-up of raw inputs, etc). There’s also data visualization, but you likely have the background to pick that up quickly.

          You might consider working up a sample project. Find a public data set (ideally one you’re already working on), and show that you know how to slice and dice it. Then make some pretty graphs. That, plus DBA experience and subject matter experience, should put you in reasonable shape.

          1. DataGirl*

            Finding some public data to play with is a good suggestion. I have the opportunity to do some research upon request to some of our doctors but I haven’t really delved into it, I should do that. Obviously I couldn’t share anything from work data but public data would be something I could share. Thanks.

      2. DataGirl*

        Data analytics does sound better suited to my current skill set. I’m not terrible at math, but I don’t have any higher education experience in advanced maths or statistics so it would be a steeper learning curve. I’m pretty decent in Excel as my current job I’m mostly using Access / Excel. I should learn Tableau and R and data visualization, maybe a programming language. What languages are ‘hot’ right now, anyone know?

        1. Cedrus Libani*

          For a first programming language, I would recommend Python. It’s popular for a reason – it’s got all the power you’d want in an all-purpose language without needless complexity. Tons of great libraries too. Nowadays, you can get Python to do pretty much everything that R can – though I already knew R by the time Python got to that point, so anything that involves turning a tidy data table into graphs and/or fancy statistics, I’ll still do that in R. But if there’s any wrangling whatsoever that is required to stuff the data into said table, that’s Python.

        2. Parenthesis Dude*

          Tableau is data visualization. R is a programming language. If you’re good at building charts, then you’ll be valuable as an analyst. If you’re good at programming, then you’ll have value as an analyst. If you can do both, then that makes you more useful.

          I would ask the other programmers or analysts on your team what they program in and learn that. Try to leverage your SQL knowledge as much as possible. Python and R are both very popular, but I know that SAS is the primary programming language in the healthcare world. I would think that it’s the same for medical education, but I don’t know.

          The other thing you should ask yourself is whether you know enough about your field to build custom reports on your own. Do you understand the main concepts that you’re building databases for, or do you just enough to build the database itself?

    4. water data nerd*

      Jacqueline Nolis and Emily Robinson recently released a book called “Build a Career in Data Science”. I haven’t read it myself but have heard very good things about it, and from looking at the table of contents, it touches on skill-building, whether and how to choose a degree path, different types of data science jobs and companies, how to set up your resume for this type of job, how to settle in to a new role, move up, and even leave a position. Check it out, and if you don’t need to have it right away, follow the authors on Twitter because occasionally the book is on sale and they’ll tweet the code for it.

      I haven’t broken into straight data science myself, but what I see in the data science circles I follow is that demonstrating your skills is very important. Blogging can help; putting code on GitHub can help. People (at least in the R data science scene) know that you won’t have every possible skill when you start the job, so they need to know that you have the ability to pick up what you need. I’m blanking on who else to suggest you follow on Twitter, except for Chris Albon – he frequently tweets about hiring and managing data scientists, which is a really useful perspective. Good luck to you!

      1. DataGirl*

        Thank you I will check out that book! I’m not on Twitter but I’ll think about joining for that purpose.

  29. Nonsensical boss*

    I work for a small company with about 100 employees. Boss keeps chewing us out at company meetings to not ever go anywhere outside of work so we don’t get Covid and bring it to work. Every company meeting. These happen twice a month. In person. In a room where we barely all fit.
    He keeps saying that if it gets into the company and spreads the company will die.
    And yet.
    He keeps doing these company meetings that could be emails.
    He does not wear a mask while lecturing us about mask wearing.
    And lecturing about social distancing while we are all crowded into the one room.
    He refuses to allow work from home for those who could do so because it’s not possible to allow it for all and it “wouldn’t be fair.”
    And he does not enforce masks in the building. Only about 2/3 of the employees wear them at all, and noses hanging out are plentiful.
    But if someone shows up with an obvious haircut they get called to the carpet over the risks of visiting the hair salon and told if anyone at the company gets sick it’s ALL THEIR FAULT.
    The cognitive dissonance is strong with this boss.
    Anyone else work for a boss like this? Any tips for coping while I’m job hunting?

    1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      This sounds like someone who is convinced of the difference between “us” and “them” and that viruses are cognizant and will of course avoid anyone he deems in HIS “bubble”. My advice on how to cope is to protect yourself as much as possible — mask, hand washing, sit near the door or back of the room, stand away from people — all of these at work and away from work. HE wants to be safe (he doesn’t care if the rest of you are safe), and it’s all on your shoulders to provide him that protection. :-\

    2. HB*

      Boss at my current job has us working in a public building, no limit on time for public users, everyone working on site, we’ve had three confirmed cases and one death… And she sends us e-mails that state things like “Don’t spend time indoors with people not from your household” and I want to scream “So why are we here in our offices with all our coworkers AND with the public coming in and hanging around?!”

      I know the response will be “just wash your hands” or whatever but ugh ugh ugh. The cognitive dissonance here is so frustrating and disheartening. It’s the biggest reason why I’m leaving for a different job!

    3. KR*

      I don’t have a job like this but my work keeps talking about the projected return to the office day and the importance of COVID precautions when they have me traveling to a city hours away, staying in hotels, and our field staff have to go into work every day. It’s “social distance and stay at home” until they decide something just has to be done in person, I guess. Feels super disingenuous, especially when a lot of this stuff doesn’t have to happen for a critical reason but because our policy says it has to be done or it has to be done in order to keep business going like it normally does without a pandemic.

    5. tangerineRose*

      If you act really enthusiastic about this and try to give the vibe of “I hear what you’re saying, and I’m trying to be proactive” and look up useful stuff on the CDC website and maybe find stuff that agrees with the correct stuff he’s saying and then add stuff that you wish he’d do, could that help? Something like “I’ve been so inspired by what you said, that I went to the CDC website to see what else we can/should do. They recommend letting people work from home when they can, and they suggest making meetings virtual and wearing masks when you’re around others.”

  30. Snip Snap Snip Snap*

    So I snipped at a coworker today. I have worked for my organization for over two years and was hired to do communications and government relations, government relations being what I was actually interested in. My coworker, Jeff, is responsible for regulatory affairs and government relations. So there is supposed to be overlap between our positions. Well, in reality, I exclusively do communications and my repeated requests to be included in government relations have been met with “yes of course” that never pan out. Like Jeff will joke with me that I am a LINO, lobbyist in name only.

    Anyways, our secretary forwarded me a call from a lobbyist, who I had a pre-existing relationship with, who wanted to discuss legislation with me. My boss and Jeff were both cc’d on the message. And boss writes back “After speaking with him, please kick this over to Jeff if there is any follow up needed.” Anyways I called him back and all that jazz and honestly snapped in my email to Jeff and wrote “So if you want to follow-up with him because I can’t comprehend simple legislation, here’s his number.”

    I feel bad. But at the same time I really don’t. I’m tired of being the doormat and having my career be the butt of the joke.

      1. WellRed*

        total boss problem and I’m guessing it hasn’t been addressed, leading to this unfortunate moment.

    2. Observer*

      Well, if you want your career to be taken seriously, you need to consider how you address people.

      Why are you snapping at Jeff over something your boss told you to do? And why the sarcastic snark instead of a straightforward response like “Sure. Is there a reason that I should not work with this?”

      If you keep asking reasonable questions and get no reasonable responses, start looking for another job. But if you handle situations this way, best case you’ll get nowhere. Worst case, you will confirm whatever issues they (think they) have with you, and yo’ll develop a reputation for being difficult and childish.

      1. NotAnotherManager!*

        This is great advice. I am totally empathetic to the snappy impulse as well as not feeling like you’re getting to grow into the position or having the parts you want to dig more into go to Jeff (been there, done that, have the t-shirt… and, his “LINO” comments are not great either) – but Observer is absolutely right that if there are concerns about your performance preventing opportunities from coming to you, snipping at Jeff for following Boss’s direction is going to confirm them, not refute them.

        If it’s possible to discuss this directly with your boss to figure out if you’re ever going to get to do the things you want (or to find out what’s hindering that), start there. Try to be forward looking and make specific asks about the projects you’d like to work , too – specific commitments tend to be harder to break than nebulous, we’ll-look-for-an-opportunity ones.

      2. I've Escaped Cubicle Land*

        Its like the old saying about catching flys with honey as opposed to vinegar. If you had messaged cc back to both with “Of course I’ll send this to Jeff. I know Lobbyist personally. Would this be an opportunity to be included in govt. relations like we previously discussed?” If they come back and say no then you can push back with “Can I please have a more specific timeline on how/when I will be included in govt. relations? We’d discussed this in the past, and its part of my job description. Is there something you need to see from me before we can start XYZ?” At the end of the day its like Grandma used to say. Politeness in Mandatory. Respect is Earned. Be polite and you will hopefully earn their respect.

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Sounds like regardless of what you were hired to do 2 years ago, your de facto job at the moment is the communications part and your boss sees anything other than ‘basic’ / non-time-consuming (?) legislation-related work as being Jeff’s domain rather than yours.
      I’d echo what others have said, that this is potentially an issue with your boss rather than with Jeff. Have you ever had any conversations with Jeff about your respective roles i.e. do you think his impression is that government relations is exclusively ‘his’ responsibility?

  31. Calling Kiwi's/those who work in NZ*

    Hi! I have two questions for those who are Kiwi’s or who have / are working in NZ.

    I had a zoom interview earlier on in the week and they are now contacting my references. Is this the same as in the UK where in my experience my references have only been contacted when it’s likely I am going to be made an offer?

    Second q: is it the done thing to negotiate a salary offer or would I come across as being wildly out of sync with the NZ norms?

    (I have a valid work visa, a plane ticket and my hotel quarantine spot all sorted.)

    1. Ems*

      Not Kiwi but worked in NZ for a few years (am from the UK originally). My experience was that reference checking was more in line with the American way of actually finding out more about the person, not just the box ticking exercise it generally is the UK. For the job I applied for, I know my references received quite an extensive questionnaire asking about my strengths/weaknesses. I did receive an offer as a result but I believe the hiring manager did take the information the referees gave into account.

      And yes, it’s normal to negotiate salary (even for government jobs, which I did not actually realise before applying, and was my mistake).

      Good luck with the offer! I loved my time working in NZ and would go back in a heartbeat.

      1. Calling Kiwi's/those who work in NZ*

        Thank you for your comment – that’s really helpful to know. I hope you manage to get back to NZ at some point :)

    2. GreyNerdShark*

      I’m a skip not a kiwi but as far as I know Australian norms are similar.

      Generally references are part of the final process. If you have one standout you contact before the offer as the final test, if you are trying to decide between two people references might tip the balance. I’ve never bothered for a shortlist only for the final choice or as a tiebreaker.

      Salary negotiation should be fine. Just realise that NZ is a polite “English” country at least the middle class Anglo bits I have dealt with are. So understated and reserved. Don’t go over the top when negotiating. I found the cultural norms around expressing emotion much more like the genteel middle class Australia of my youth (which was a long time ago) than Australia now.

      1. Calling Kiwi's/those who work in NZ*

        Thank you – that’s really helpful information and yes, thanks for the reminder about the polite-ness!

    3. Scc@rlettNZ*

      Kiwi here (who used to work in recruitment). It’s fairly common for companies to only reference check their preferred candidate prior to making an offer.

      However if it was an academic position that you applied for then the process will likely be different. Generally a long list is selected, references are requested, and a shortlist of folk to be interviewed is then decided.

      Yes, it’s completely normal to negotiate on salary.

      1. Calling Kiwi's/those who work in NZ*

        Thank you- it is higher ed but on the professional services side not as an academic.

    4. Bob_NZ*

      I’m UK-born (and lived there until I was 29) and living in New Zealand since 2005. For the last 5 years I’ve been a hiring manager in the public service.

      As others have mentioned, I generally progress to reference checks for my top candidates. I’d never do a ref check for someone who is a definite “no” (due to not wanting to waste my time or the time of the referee) but I do sometimes use reference checks to decide between two great candidates. Thinking back to my last 10 hires, I probably did reference checks for 12 candidates.

      As for negotiating salary – yes, absolutely do it! Ask politely, citing the ways you’d add value to the position. It will help to know the salary scale for the position – not always advertised but HR departments can advise it if you ask – and typical movements within each scale. Even a sentence like “is there any room for movement on that?” can be handy. The worst case scenario is that you’ll get a polite “no” and you’ll be no worse off than if you hadn’t tried. Thinking back to recent hires, newish grads tend not to negotiate (maybe one person in 20?) but those with 5+ years’ work tend to, and rightly so.

      I hope that helps!

  32. Bloop*

    I can feel it… I am self-sabotoging. I recently joined the app Clubhouse and it’s been a great and hard experience. So many people on there are creating rooms about how they’re doing well in their work and business, starting 6 figure entrepreunerships, etc. And I keep thinking… am I alone?

    I’m turning 29 this year (something something saturn return) and I feel both lost and behind. I’m too scared to go for a promotion because I’m afraid of failing, I’m too scared to explore a career switch because I’m afraid of the uncertainty, and I’m too scared to explore my passion project because I’m scared at being an imposter. So many women in their 30s that are in my purview are so successful, and confident, and here I am– too afraid to speak up in a meeting because I’m convinced I’m the least smart in the room.

    I’ve been in therapy for years, but this has been my roughest year as far as self confidence and belief. The cultural (or maybe my own because I know so many successful, amazing people) pressure to Be Great and Do Great is weighing on me, especially as I creep closer to 30, but emotionally feel like I’m still a confused 21 year old. I’m considering anxiety medication now because just therapy and affirmations haven’t helped.

    I just wanted to see if anyone else felt the same way, and maybe I’m not alone. I want to get better and believe in myself, because I do feel like I want to do more. I’m just really afraid.

    1. Lucy Kean*

      I am also turning 29 this year and I feel like I could have written everything you just said about myself. It is a constant struggle to remind myself that people only post on social media the things they want to be seen. Most of that stuff is perfectly polished (and likely exaggerated) and leaves behind the ugly realities of “hustling” or whatever you want to call it.

      This year has been hard for me, too. But I noticed that the less I check social media and see other people living fabulous lives, the less I am concerned that my job (and my life) isn’t fabulous enough. Easier said than done, I know. I’m sending you good wishes with whatever avenue of mental health options you choose! You are not alone.

      1. Reba*

        Yeah, I echo this, to get off Clubhouse and Insta, or at least aggressively edit your feeds and get well away from people posting about how to be successful. A lot of it is inaccurate and some is a downright scam.

        The other sort of life suggestion I have is to find a cause you care about and join a group. Just get involved in something — or level up involvement if you already do this. There is a lot more to life than work and “success.” Not to get too political, but individualist, capitalist ideology is behind (what I think is) this impoverished view of what it looks like to accomplish things in life. You are right to identify this as a cultural pressure — it’s not like, a law of nature!

        Speaking from the mid-thirties…you never really get to a point where you’ve got things figured out. But hopefully you accept yourself more, and have more perspective that you incorporate into your view. I do totally get the fear of failing thing. Maybe you can try to separate that issue from the unfavorable comparisons to others habit. Elsewhere I have seen suggestions to practice failing or being bad at lower-stakes things (even simply games or new hobbies) to build resilience.

    2. Joielle*

      I have a lot of thoughts about this, and I know this way of thinking is a total oversimplification, but this is what helped me get past the same issue.

      I used to feel SO MUCH like this, and then I went to law school and realized that men do not have this problem where they’re afraid to speak up because they’re worried they’re not smart enough (I mean, I know some individual men do, but not men as a group, on average). Just some of the dumbest men I have ever met, speaking up every single day to share their ill-informed and poorly-thought-out opinions, fully believing in themselves – and some really smart women holding back. And I just thought, why should I hold myself back when these guys aren’t. If these complete idiots believe in themselves, then I should too.

      I felt like a veil was lifted when I realized this! I started saying my thoughts out loud in classes and meetings, and quelle surprise, they were very well received. The more you speak up, the more you get good feedback, the easier it gets. But they key is, you have to fully believe that your opinions are good and worthy, because they came from your brain and you’re a smart and qualified person.

      It’s really hard at first! But it gets easier. I did some therapy, which helped a lot, and took beta blockers for a while to deal with anxiety (I liked them because they basically eliminated the physical heart racing/sweaty palms/shaking voice part of anxiety and it made it a lot easier to just do things without getting worked up about them).

      I’m really sorry if this comes off as bragging or tough love! It was a hard road. But I know what you’re going through, and I feel like I had to give *myself* tough love to get past that same thing. Just remember – you’re a smart person with valuable opinions. You know they’re valuable because they came from your brain, which is smart. (Again, OF COURSE, this is an oversimplification. But for me, I couldn’t let my brain get bogged down with nuance because then I’d keep talking myself out of speaking up. Trust yourself.)

    3. Sandy*

      You’re not alone. I’m a good ten years older and have some of the same feelings. In fact, the comparison stuff can get worse over the years as people who found their niche early build success on success and are doing really amazing things now. But we all have our own path. Cliche, but still true.

      As to what to do about it, I’ve tried affirmations and for me they work best as ways to drown out negative voices in my head – I think they’re useful, but they’re not a driver of change for me. In my experience, the only driver of change has been keeping small promises to myself, putting myself out there, and doing the things that scare me. Feelings aren’t truth and the stories they tell can really hold us back. I’d encourage you to go out there and do more – even the smallest things, like speaking up in the moment – and worry less about believing in yourself. The believing is more likely to follow the doing than to precede it.

    4. motherofdragons*

      Hi! I’m 33 and SAME. You are NOT alone. Fear is such a beast. I second what others have said above – (1) Social media =/= real life, and (2) that feedback loop of “try something > it pays off > confidence boost to try another something” is effective.

      What also has helped me, honestly, is therapy. Anxiety and fear are extremely linked. When I’m anxious about something (aka I fear the outcome), I avoid it. My therapist has pointed out that in avoiding it, I am reinforcing my brain’s fear – “We think this Thing is scary, so we are avoiding the Thing, which definitely means it is scary and worth avoiding to keep us safe!” Just recognizing this pattern of thinking helps me see how ridiculous it is. So my therapist told me to approach what scares me instead of avoid it. That has really helped me confront some fears of speaking up or putting myself out there.

    5. pancakes*

      Listening to people making unverifiable boasts about how well their careers and lives are going on social media does not seem great in these circumstances. It seems like a bad idea even for someone who isn’t struggling with self-confidence, because the content is heavy on self-aggrandizement and puffery and isn’t, in my understanding, vetted in any meaningful way. Consider taking a break from it! Also consider reading a recent article about it in GQ titled, “Clubhouse wanted to be different. But bigotry flourished anyway.” The title is a little misleading because it also talks about misinformation, not just bigotry.

      Also, please don’t consider medication as something to try only as a last resort. Medication can and does help a lot of people out on a chemical level that talking things out can’t always or inherently help.

    6. A Person*

      What’s your goal with the Clubhouse app? Is it helping you? Or are you using it to make yourself feel worse?

      I highly recommend The Happiness Trap – I got it from a therapist and for me personally was the best help for my mental health stuff. I suspect based on your post you’re spending a lot of time and mental energy on what you should do and be and feel rather than identifying what you REALLY want and working on barriers. Do you WANT a promotion? Is it important for you to explore your passion? What can you do to get there? Is it okay to feel anxious and afraid while you do these things? (Hint: yes.)

      When I got out of the mindset that negative emotions were a failure in themselves and was able to switch to thinking about what I want to do (even if it’s scary and I have low self confidence) it was a HUGE boost to my career. And now I’m about to take a bit of step back because I realized I don’t want to be at this level and I still do feel a fear that I’m failing, etcetera. But today-me has the tools to recognize what is helpful and what isn’t helpful and still push through and do what’s best for me.

      Personal experience: I spent years thinking I was going to Do Science, was a research assistant, went to grad school, dropped out, etc. At 29 I was about a year out from *starting* my eventual long term career path and still a few years away from reading the book above. Are there tons of people “ahead” of me since they figured things out sooner or have more drive or whatever? Yep. Do I feel jealous and not good enough sometimes? Yep! I’m human, feelings happen. But I’ve gotten to the point where I can generally keep making the best decisions for myself despite all this.

      Ooh, another book recommendation if you want – Laziness Does not Exist. A good recent read into how much pressure we all get right now and how it’s kind of toxic.

      1. Reba*

        Oh yeah, the “shoulds” — this can be really devastating, and social media exposure can definitely feed it.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Okay so go into it.
      Go one fear at at time.
      Let’s start with speaking up in meetings. Reality is that each one of us is not the smartest NOR the dumbest person in the room. And that is because we are all smart and dumb about various things, no one person knows it all.

      One thing that helped me was to vow to apologize where appropriate if I said something wrong. For example, if I stepped on someone’s toes or lawn I would apologize as soon as I realized my error. That was oddly very freeing. Deciding what to do when things went bad, helped me so much.

      On the positive side, I decided to be strategic when I did speak up. I decided to look for a point where I could make a legitimate contribution. I set a goal of speaking once or twice initially. Saying “good morning” counts, as the idea is to speak. Thanking the organizer on the way out is another opportunity to speak.

      Another angle to consider is most of what you are telling yourself are myths. Be Great, Do Great? REALLY? The reality is that success looks like “Be good, do good”. That’s the highest level most of us can expect. And ya know what? There’s a lot of satisfaction to be found just in getting that far.
      Another myth you might want to ditch is that life comes together by age 29. Naaawww…. it’s more like age 45 or later. Hang in there, it’s okay to not have checked all the boxes and done all things for all people at 29. Eh, it’s okay at age 60 too because most of us never check all the boxes.

      Small consolation? I think my 20s were HARD. Older people seem to make fun of my ideas, “oh you young people!!” And then there were the know-it-alls, “Well how come you don’t have a zillion dollars in your IRA by now???” This stuff started to slow down and almost vanished as I went through my 30s. My question to you is, if you were 200% sure that things would start getting better in the future, then what would you do differently today? I’d suggest start living now AS IF you know for a fact life will get better at some point. What I like about this is it allowed me to acknowledge that life was not wonderful atm, but at the same time gave me hope that I was going toward something better in the future.

      Other things to consider:
      I can’t tell and only you would know, are you forcing yourself into an arena that is just plain NOT YOU? Do you think you have the skills or you can gain the skills in your arena to eventually consider yourself “good” at your job? I have joked a few times here, there are reasons why I did not make a career repairing cars. I know for a fact that I would never, ever get through the learning curve. I have too many gaps in knowledge and the gaps are not something that can be bridged.

      Another thing to consider is how you handle fear when it jumps out at you. I mentioned the Crappy Childhood Fairy last week. She offers a suggestion of journalling our fears. She actually has a self-paced program to follow that involves writing down our fears each day. I have to look this closer.

      I know that many of my fears stem from childhood issues. The way I have dealt with fear was to confront fear as much as I can. I have noticed fear varies with the type of problem, some times fear is higher than other times. I do think that we can confront some lower level fears and in a small way this helps the higher level fears even if we are not dealing with higher level fear at the moment. We can only carry so much worry- try to drop off worry as often as possible by seeking solutions to each particular worry. Don’t let yourself get too big a backlog of worries.

    8. RagingADHD*

      What I learned is that for me, the idea of “Being Great and Doing Great” begs the question – being great *at what* and doing great *with what?*

      “Being” something is not actionable. It’s yelling into a fog. And that lack of specificity – that non-answer – is where the fear comes from. At least for me.

      What problems do you want to solve that impact other people? What do you believe needs changing in the world or in your industry? What skill do you want to get good at? What concrete thing do you want to create or accomplish?

      Focus your goals away from your own sense of yourself and toward things you can DO that benefit or create value for others. Nobody ever did anything great by assessing their own level of greatness. Find a small thing you can do, do it, and then do the next small thing.

      It’s the work equivalent of “don’t look down” when you’re on a bridge. Figure out what’s on the other side that you want to get to, and focus on that.

    9. CatWoman*

      I’m the same age as our new Vice President, but I’m certainly not going to compare myself to her or anyone else because there’s only one me. There’s not time or age limit on whatever makes you feel “successful”, and comparisons to what others on social media are doing/achieving/posting are exactly that – self-sabotaging. Speak up whenever you want, because your ideas and opinions are just as valuable as anyone else’s in the room – trust me!

    10. Sally*

      The best way to address your fear, is to take small steps. Do something that kind of scares you, succeed at it, or fail and learn that it didn’t kill you, and recover. Then do another small thing that kind of scares you. Each time you discover you’re capable of surviving both success and failure, you gain more confidence in your ability to cope. Courage is a muscle you have to build up.

    11. Bloop*

      Wow!! I am amazed that other people are feeling this way (I really need to find friends who are feeling the same way) and also knowing that some people are in a healthier place than they were and that it could happen to me too. I’m so glad to not be alone. Thank you all for sharing your stories!

  33. writingsample*

    I am interested in applying for a job that has requested a writing sample. I am not sure why, as the position doesn’t entail any type of writing for publication or distribution etc. However I would still like to toss my hat in the ring. The problem is I don’t have any type of writing to submit. I haven’t written anything since college and I graduated in 2008. Plus I don’t even know if I have items I wrote back then. Any ideas on what to do for the writing sample?

    1. Tech Writer*

      In your last position, did you write anything that was published? It could published internally, like a magazine article – would that work as your writing sample?

    2. Not Australian*

      Your writing should have evolved since 2008 anyway, so even if you *could* locate your old work it probably wouldn’t be much use.

      Unless they specify a topic, or there is something obvious that stands out – I’m assuming not, or you wouldn’t have asked the question – I’d go with something that’s important to you personally. Do you have a hobby or a pet that would make entertaining ‘copy’? A particular location you love and visit often? An author who inspires you? Or you could maybe write a letter to your past or future self. I suspect what they’re looking for is the ability to organise your thoughts and present them logically and coherently, and this could weigh in to all sorts of useful attributes like decision processing or explaining things to clients/co-workers. In other words, they’re probably interested in your *process* rather than your *product*.

    3. NotAnotherManager!*

      Can you find a topic relevant to the organization/position or glean anything from the directions given? I only have two positions that require writing samples (because the actual job involves writing), and we provide materials and directions for the sample itself based on an old project to finalists. Is there an HR contact on the posting who can clarify expectations?

    4. Donkey Hotey*

      Until I fleshed out my portfolio, I wrote a cooking blog style recipe. Told a story, wrote the recipe and the instructions. Showed writing, instructions, formatting, educational style… and gave them a recipe for a killer chocolate cake. Bribes work. :-)

    5. Lorac*

      You could write instructions for how to do your job for your replacement. It’s a good way to show business level writing and how well you communicate, as well as being useful for your current job if you leave.

      Things like, where to look for certain information, who to contact if they have questions about stuff. All with names redacted of course. Common troubleshooting “This program crashes occasionally,y if that happens just XYZ.”

    6. Skeeder Jones*

      Is there something you do that you can write a job aid for? Or a policy/procedure type doc? That’s one of the things I wrote when I needed a writing sample that wasn’t intellectual property/proprietary.

  34. A Beautiful Mind (ironic)*

    Hi all!

    I need advice on how to cope with boring work when you struggle with boredom in general. I’m temporarily doing more interesting work, and when I go back to my original role it will comprise even more dull work than it did before. I was already considering leaving because I was bored six months into the job but decided to stay because the temporary role I was offered interested me and is not something I would otherwise get the chance to do (it usually requires a 4-year degree in my field where I have a 3-year (Bachelor’s) degree, but as I had proved myself capable my boss thought it was better to give me that temp position and hire another temp for mine). I was bored partly because the job is very repetitive (the same basic tasks need to be done every day, and then about a week per month there’s a bit of additional work that is more interesting) and partly because the volume of work was too low for me. It looks likely that the volume won’t be as much of an issue anymore BUT it’s going to be because additional boring tasks will be added.

    I’m okay doing boring tasks IF I know that more interesting things are coming (routinely like in a monthly accounting cycle, or upcoming projects). But I really can’t face having 95% boring work and 5% slightly-less-boring work with no hope for getting more interesting work down the line, and that is where things seem to be heading. I have a … pretty active mind, shall we say (probably not ADHD but probably Autistic, not been evaluated for either though, also #formerly gifted kids anonymous), and can find myself unable to sleep if I’m off work for too long, write macros in VBA to minimise repetitive dull tasks, etc. I’m only 30 so I feel like I’m too young to be this bored and absolutely don’t want to settle for boring work that just pays the bills; while I have a life outside of work I don’t have enough energy left over to make that exciting/fun/whatever enough to be satisfying to me—my work needs to be fulfilling too (also boring work makes me more tired than interesting work does, even if the interesting work can get very intense, so settling for boredom would impact my life outside of work too).

    Also, until this week I had been hoping to continue doing part of the work I am doing now (as I have a background that made me able to expand some of the work in the role I’m doing temporarily—the person who is coming back to this role would likely not be able to continue that part of the work, and as mentioned I had room enough to take on some more work in my original role). I’ve received glowing reviews from the C-suite about the whole of my performance but particularly about this area so I kind of had reason to hope. But this week they posted an ad for a whole new position that will take over that part of this job and parts of my boss’s job. At first I thought they might have created that position to keep me doing the work I’ve expanded on but a call with my boss made it clear that that is not the case. I feel really deflated—it’s like “sure you’ve done great but we want someone BETTER” (and my sexism radar is blaring loudly tbh, both I and the person I’m covering for are women and I’ve suspected before that my boss is uncomfortable with that). And the thanks I get for working my butt off is more grunt work?! So now my motivation is down to zero even for the interesting work that I’ll still be doing for a while longer (though it may be shorter than planned if they find whoever they’re looking for). This especially rankles as the things they want the new hire to have are things they could easily send me to training for—sure it would cost some money (and time) but SO DOES HIRING RIGHT? And they’re going to have double the hiring costs now because I am definitely leaving ASAP. (The boredom and the lack of growth opportunities are only the things that are easy to define—my boss is also horrible with his micromanagement, lack of structure and planning, and an awful way to word emails that constantly makes it seem like we’re failing to do things when actually he’s changed the expectations without telling us. I had already applied for another job when this job was posted so I’m not leaving only because of this. But as long as I was getting to do interesting enough work I was kind of prepared to overlook some of the other downsides.)

    Anyway, so, as I live in a small town and would like to take a step forward and preferably into an organisation where I’d like to stay for a while (i.e. with a boss who doesn’t micromanage, has the ability to look ahead and plan, and doesn’t constantly move the goalposts without mentioning it), AND there’s a pandemic going on … I should probably expect to be here for quite a while longer. Any tips for a) coping with the boredom and/or b) keeping my head up and keeping on doing this work after being told I’m not good enough at it? How do I pretend to be okay once I have to return to the office?

    Thanks in advance, and thanks for being such an amazing resource! I’ve learned so much both from Alison’s posts and the commentariat, I definitely wouldn’t be where I am today if a friend hadn’t told me about this place 6 years ago.

    1. Autumnheart*

      That sucks. I’ve had jobs before where I wasn’t challenged, and yet management seemed uninterested in giving more work, more challenging work, or developing my skills in any way. I did what you did and found a new job, but in the meantime, I think the only thing I could recommend are the usual time-passers (online courses, working on your portfolio/resume/cover letters/Linkedin, Solitaire) and maybe proactively contacting recruiters yourself. It might take a while to find a new position, but on the other hand it might not!

      1. A Beautiful Mind (ironic)*

        Thank you! I will re-focus on picking up the skills I want to be able to use in the future and ramp up my jobsearch.

    2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      I don’t know. Sometimes I put on a podcast and just do boring stuff for an hour. Then I do something fun

      1. A Beautiful Mind (ironic)*

        Thank you, I might experiment with an audiobook for the most dull stuff, though I am generally easily distracted. Sadly the fun stuff has strict deadlines (or comes in unpredictably) so I can’t really spread it out–right now I have about 2-3 weeks of (mostly) fun stuff then 1-2 weeks of dull stuff interspersed with “ad hoc” requests in the fun areas before the next round of fun stuff starts. Once the temp position is finished it’ll be more like dull stuff all month interspersed with about 1 week a month of fun-ish stuff.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Boredom would have killed me. I would have died young. I have such a low tolerance for boredom that I can’t even talk to a stranger online about boredom. So no tips from me, I can’t encourage you to remain bored.

      My best thought and I mean it in the kindest way you can think of: Stop limiting yourself. Start looking for that job NOW. And this is how you will deal with the boredom at work by telling yourself, “I have a plan. I am moving on.”
      Don’t waste these precious months waiting for that “ideal” time to job hunt. YOUR ideal time is RIGHT NOW. This job was over awhile ago.

      1. A Beautiful Mind (ironic)*

        Wow, thanks, this means so much. Part of me worries I’m being a spoiled brat for wanting to actually use my brain so hearing that it’s not just me makes it feel more legitimate!

        And thanks for the encouragement to get on with getting a new job! I have been monitoring ads for months now and the job I’ve applied for is the ONLY one in that time that’s been appropriate but I’m going to reach out to some temp agencies and the recruiters I was in contact with in my last search so I’ll be on file for when they get any positions to fill.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          “Part of me worries I’m being a spoiled brat for wanting to actually use my brain so hearing that it’s not just me makes it feel more legitimate!”

          hmm. This is what overthinking looks like. Spoiled brats don’t want to use their minds or their muscles to earn a living. You, OTOH, are saying you want to use more of your mind to earn a living.

          Life tends to go toward whatever we demand out of life. If you want a job different than what you have now, then start looking for it. I am amazed by how many times in my personal life and working life that things have changed for me simply because I decided to start looking for something different. Keep talking with others. This is another thing that has been of huge value in my life, inputs from others, who are not necessarily ones close to me. But I was selective about who I talked with.

        2. allathian*

          You seem to be so over this job. You want to be challenged and there’s nothing wrong with that. Boreout is a real thing and can be as bad for you as burnout. It leads to disengagement from the job, as you’ve noted yourself. Personally, if I had to choose, I’d rather be bored than overstretched, but most of all I prefer to be suitably challenged most of the time, neither bored nor stressed out.

          Employers that actually value engagement in their employees don’t let them get bored.

          While it’s true that young professionals in many fields have to pay their dues in possibly boring entry level jobs, good companies are always on the lookout for employees who want more than that.

  35. MMMMmmmmmmmMMM*

    Just had an interview for a job that I’d know I’d crush. It was great.

    The drawback is that on the application materials it said it was a 40 hour position. Then, in an email with me, they tell me its “slightly less than full time” and when I got to the interview and asked them to clarify, “its more like 32.”

    UGH. Like, unless there’s a 20% or more pay increase from what I’m currently making, this isn’t going to be an option for me.

    Why can’t places be upfront about something as simple as HOURS???

      1. MMMMmmmmmmmMMM*

        Fortunately, the same email that said “less than full time” did give benefits, otherwise it would have been a complete non-starter.

  36. Bonbon*

    How many hours per week do you work? (not including your commute, but including time at home answering emails, etc)

    2. londonedit*

      My contracted hours are 37.5 a week, and that’s pretty much what I do. I don’t answer emails or do work outside of my normal working day but I can’t say I take a full hour for lunch every day (especially since 2020 happened and I’m working from home without anywhere interesting to go!)

      1. Nessun*

        Same – 37.5 h per week minimum (we track our time). I’m in management, so I’m salaried and my OT does not get paid out; I do sometimes work more hours in a week, but it’s nothing egregious. Sometimes I’ll hit 44 hours a week, but not very often, and I can decide for myself when that extra happens (weekend, after hours).

      1. Becky*

        Ditto–I work generally right a 40. When I qualified for OT pay I would take it when I could but now that I don’t qualify–my boss is great about letting us take comp time, unofficially.

    5. Kimmy Schmidt*

      My work is fairly cyclical and flexible. During my busy time I average around 45 hours a week, but sometimes up to 55. During my non-busy time, I’m probably around 38 hours a week.

    6. anonymous for secret reasons*

      Technically scheduled for 36.25 but it varies from more like 32 to more like 45-50 depending on project load. US, nonexempt but treated like an exempt employee. My actual work would have me classified as exempt, but my job title is firmly nonexempt, and my boss and I have been in a dispute with HR for months and months trying to have that discrepancy resolved. (Yeah, I am looking at other jobs…)

    7. A penguin!*

      39-42 most weeks. Just came off a rare (once ever so far) push of 50-55/week that lasted maybe six weeks.

      Engineering manager, US

    8. ThatGirl*

      I’m scheduled (not in a time clock sort of way, but in a “here’s what my manager and I agreed on”) for 7:30 to 4:30 with an hour for lunch. In reality that doesn’t sort to precisely 40 hours because I get up to take the dog out, or yesterday my lunch was cut short by a meeting, or I shut my computer down 10 minutes early — but yeah, it’s usually pretty close to 40.

    9. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Officially, 7-3:30 with a 30 minute lunch. Practically, I usually log in between 6:45-6:50 and log out between 3:30 and 3:45, and almost never actually take my lunch, so … 43-45? But I also, as a result, don’t get too fussed if I take a couple AAM breaks during the day or if I have to skip out an hour early for an appointment or whatever, and my boss is also unconcerned about such a thing. I’m willing to stay later for meetings or such when necessary, our powers that be tend to be more the 9-5 schedule types, but that’s rare – but I don’t touch my work email or such outside of my scheduled hours.

    11. Kiwiii*

      I probably average about 41. I’m non exempt and overtime isn’t really necessary except for maybe one outside of regular hours testing thing a month (I work a role that’s not tech, but works closely with tech), or a little crunch time.

      1. Kiwiii*

        I rarely check email/chat outside of hours unless it’s just that I got off a little before whoever has a question/needs some help.

    12. Crowley*

      30. I work 6hrs 5 days. I could do 4 normal full time days but when the kid is in school it doesn’t seem worth it.

      Usual full time for my org is 37.

    14. HR Exec Popping In*

      It varies greatly between 40 and 70 depending on what is going on but I would say I average around 55.

    15. Can't Sit Still*

      I’m non-exempt and work 40 hours a week with very occasional overtime. I typically work 10 – 15 hours of OT per year now, compared to previous jobs where I worked 10 – 15 hours of OT per week. It’s definitely an improvement in my work/life balance! I occasionally check email after hours if I am expecting something that needs to be taken care of before the next working day.

    16. Ali G*

      35. i typically don’t do any emails or anything outside work hours. If i have to stay late for a call one day, I work less another. The only times I work outside of normal hours are if I’ve procrastinated and did it to myself.

    17. Glitsy Gus*

      Around 45-50 hours a week. I’m salaried, so I don’t really track beyond what I need to do for billing/metrics tracking and it does flex a bit based on what happening but I would say that’s the average.

      I am trying to scale that back, my job is jerking me around a lot and I’m tired of doing work well above my current title level and not getting paid for it so I’m working on putting in some boundaries there. Hopefully in a few months 40-42 will be closer to the norm.

    18. Veronica*

      42
      This doesn’t count the time I spend thinking about my projects while I exercise, shower, listen to my kids tell me about the latest Minecraft updates….

    19. Maggie*

      40 hours, but its 9 hour days because we have a mandated hour lunch. But I always take the full hour probably 98% of the time and I take a break too.

    20. Hillary*

      Right now I average around 35. My projects for the year haven’t been officially approved and I can’t travel. Under normal times I work between 40 and 80 hours, more if you count travel time. I prefer to “waste” a day getting there early to adjust to the time zone. I can’t go from an overnight flight straight into a full day of meetings and be productive.

    22. LCS*

      “Slow” times, anywhere from 45-60 hours. Busy periods (about 8-10 weeks a year) is 75-100+ hours per week. One week out of 6 I’m on call so need to be attached to my phone, completely sober, and able to physically be at work in <1 hour if the phone rings. It doesn’t ring often but still puts a damper on other extracurricular options, or at least it would in non-COVID times. It’s honestly kind of ridiculous. Compensation is good, anywhere from $150-200k depending on bonus (Canadian, so adjust that accordingly and account for high taxes). And on paper I have a ton of vacation but it’s hard to actually take it without still checking in / responding to emails. Seriously considering if it’s worth it or not.

    23. Chaordic One*

      I work 40 hours according to my time card, but realistically I probably put in between 41 to 43 hours per week.

    25. Sabine the Very Mean*

      I’m salaried for 40 but honestly, I only have to put in a true 15-20 hours per week to stay on top of my work.

      1. Dwight Schrute*

        Me too! I can probably get away with about 30 hours of actual work per week, which means I take somewhat frequent breaks throughout the day and don’t rush on tasks. Sometimes I feel like a slacker but other times pretty okay with it

    26. allathian*

      I’m not in the US, and my official workweek is 36 hours 15 minutes, so 7 hours 15 minutes per day. That said, I can put in that work between 6 am and 11 pm every day, and there’s a banking system for overtime. We must take a 30-minute break at some point if we work at least 6 hours, but that’s pretty much the only requirement. We don’t get paid overtime except in very exceptional circumstances. I mostly have between 10 and 50 banked hours. I’m expected to attend meetings that I’ve accepted the invitation to, but as long as I keep my calendar updated so that people know when I’ll be available, I can pretty much determine my own working hours freely, especially given that my job doesn’t require much synchronous collaboration. The flexibility has certainly helped me maintain a healthy work-life balance.

      Given the flexibility I have, I don’t answer emails outside of my “working hours”. If I get an urgent message at 6 pm on my phone and I’ve stopped working at 3, I just log on again and put in as much time as it takes to deal with that urgent message, or a minimum of 15 minutes, because we log our working hours in 15-minute increments. That said, this has happened once in the 7 years when this flexibility has been available to us.

    28. MissDisplaced*

      Generally 40-45. Usually it’s not more unless there is a big important meeting or something.

      Since being WFH I have to admit there are some weekdays I slack off, but end up working on the weekend instead. It has been distracting lately.

  37. Here we go again*

    My boss told me to call the Assistant Manager “Fergus” to go pick up Teapots. When I called Fergus and asked, he said, “No- that’s not going to happen. Tell her to ask John or Jane.” and hung up.

    John and Jane weren’t available, so I went to go pick up the Teapots. While I was driving, Fergus called me and said that he could have gone to pick up the teapots. He said that he was “just joking”.

    Um, excuse me? For someone joking, he sounded pretty serious.

    Fergus is also allergic to work, so I shouldn’t be surprised by any of this. He’s there for socializing and anything food related, but when it comes to meetings, or anything work related, he doesn’t want to do it. He’s also the epitome of the “kiss up/kick down” and sucks up to the higher ups and puts down anyone lower than him.

    The problem? Him and my boss are close friends and talk frequently, boss knows his family and lets him get away with everything, so going to the boss won’t help.

    Is this a lost cause? (ie: “Your coworker stinks and isn’t going to change”) Should I be doing anything?

    Fergus now thinks that I’m mad at him, but I just wish that he wouldn’t joke around so much with work stuff. I told him this, but I don’t think that he will listen.

    1. MMMMmmmmmmmMMM*

      I wouldn’t cover for Fergus anymore! You were told to tell him to pick up the teapots. Its not your responsibility to make sure that he gets them. He’s an adult.

      1. anastaziad*

        Heartily agree. You were told to TELL Fergus to do something, but instead you ASKED him to do it, opening up the door to his refusal. If your boss wanted YOU to pick up the teapots, your boss would have asked or told you to do so. You took time away from your other work …not good.

    3. PollyQ*

      1) Fergus’s moods & beliefs are his problem. He probably thinks you’re mad because he knows that’s a valid reaction.
      2a) If Fergus ever pushes back on any work assignment at all in the future, say “Ha! Good one, Fergus! But seriously, I’ll let Boss know you’ll be getting the teapots.”
      2b) OR, if Fergus pushes back, tell him you’ll let Boss know that he’ll be unable to do that. Then tell Boss, and ask how you should proceed. Do not take on the task as yours unless Boss explicitly tells you to. I hear you that Boss coddles Fergus, but that shouldn’t mean that you also need to cover for Fergus. “Return the awkward” to Boss and let him deal with it.

    4. Observer*

      To some extent it’s a lost cause. You cannot change him, but you CAN change how you handle this stuff.

      So in a situation like this, you call Fergus and *tell* him “Boss said to go pick up the teapots.” You stay in STRICT message delivery mode. If he says “Tell boss blah blah” respond with “Tell boss yourself” and then hang up. If he says that and hangs up, go back to boss (preferably in email) and say “Fergus said to tell you blah blah and then hung up.” And that’s it. Don’t make any offers, don’t ask what to do, nothing. Let the boss figure this one out.

      If the boss has you do the work Fergus refused to do, make sure that you let the boss know what you won’t be able to do because you are doing Fergus’ work. And if Fergus tells you “I was just joking” tell him “I didn’t know that. I can’t tell when you are joking unless you tell me so.” And keep on repeating that. Whether you “SHOULD HAVE KNOWN” or “You have no sense of humor” or “whatever”, stick to “I can’t tell if you are joking about this stuff unless you tell me so.” Just be a broken record.

    5. Workerbee*

      Sounds like Fergus suddenly got worried that you would, rightfully, let the boss know of his behavior, so called you and pretended he’d been joking.

      Ferguses deserve to be reported on. They already give you all the facts you need to present a clear case every time. Doing work for the Ferguses just teaches them that you are there to be used.

    6. ginger ale for all*

      Any chance you could e-mail Fergus in the future? A paper or e-mail trail could be helpful.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      You have a crappy coworker. But your boss is even worse than the coworker because the boss should not allow this situation to exist.

      I don’t see anything wrong with Fergus thinking you are mad at him. I would have said, “I don’t come to work to fluff off, I come to work to… you know… work.”

    8. The New Wanderer*

      Fergus was trying to CYA so you don’t report him to the boss for acting like a jerk. He wasn’t just joking. Just joking would be “Nope, too busy! Ha ha just kidding, I’ll do it.” NOT saying “no, get someone else,” and then hanging up on you. That’s disrespectful of him and him saying you’re mad at him is him trying to make it *your* fault.

      I’d have been very tempted to email him, cc’ing Boss, and saying “You disconnected before I could confirm, so I’m reiterating Boss’ instruction that you please pick up the Teapots.”

      At the very least, next time Boss asks you to ask Fergus to do something, I’d say “Hmm, based on my previous experience, he might take that request coming better from you. Last time I tried to pass along the request he hung up on me.” Being friends with Fergus, your boss might downplay it but I think that gives you an opening if it happens again to say, “sorry Boss, Fergus is just not receptive to me relaying your instructions.”

    9. RagingADHD*

      Fergus is messing with you. Just don’t play.

      If he pulls something like that, immediately shoot him and Boss an email “just confirming that Fergus refused to pick up the teapots. I have reached out to John and Jane but they are not available. Would you like me to go get them? It will mean I can’t do X, Y, and Z while I’m gone.”

      Make Fergus’ so-called sense of “humor” your boss’s problem instead of yours. It will stop very fast.

      1. tangerineRose*

        Yep. This. Fergus will probably tell the boss he was joking, but if this happens a lot, the boss will probably tell him to knock it off.

    10. Budgie Buddy*

      Fergus sounds kind of right that you are mad at him tho? And it seems like the issue is more that he slacks off his work and mistreats his fellow employees than just that he jokes too much.

      1. pancakes*

        If he was genuinely concerned about anyone being mad at him he wouldn’t behave the way he does. I wouldn’t take his feigned concern about it any more seriously than the kissing up behavior OP described, which is a type of affectation.

  38. Might Be Spam*

    How do we handle my mother’s caregiver, who doesn’t want to wear a mask? Mom is legally competent but doesn’t stand up for herself. We finally talked her into getting a part time caregiver through an agency. The first day the caregiver didn’t have a mask so we got a box of kn95 masks. When I asked my mom how it worked out, she said they weren’t using them. Mom says she is probably safe, but we don’t know how many other people the caregiver is exposed to. We contacted the agency who told the caregiver to wear the mask.

    Yesterday I learned that she still isn’t wearing a mask. Mom is uncomfortable about the risk, but also has some difficulty understanding the caregiver because the mask mufflers her voice and she also has an accent.

    We don’t want mom to possibly die. How do we get the caregiver to wear a mask if she is able to manipulate my mom into saying it’s OK not to wear it? Mom is paying, so we can’t fire her.

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Call the agency again and state that the caregiver still isn’t wearing masks, and they need to fix it, stat. Given that they’ve already told this individual once to wear a mask and they’re still not complying, you probably need a different caregiver.

    3. Slipping The Leash*

      I’d do what I could to get this person fired – lack of judgement, lack of responsibility, believing fairy tales are real – she is a danger to the agency’s clients. I certainly wouldn’t allow her back in the house with your mom.

    4. PollyQ*

      Contact the agency and tell them you need a different carer who will wear the mask 100% of the time. This is a literal life and death situation.

    5. Observer*

      Contact the agency – it’s not like your mother thinks that this person is her protective angel. You’re mother doesn’t like confrontation, but if you tell your mother that you are going to see if the agency will send someone else, I’m sure she won’t mind.

      And when you call tell the agency that you are actually providing the masks, so this is NOT an issue of asking someone who is relatively low paid being asked to carry the burden of masking!

    6. Might Be Spam*

      We contacted the agency again today and they said they would talk to her again. I have to be careful asking my mom because she might be afraid to tell me the truth. If she sounds evasive, I’ll have to make a surprise visit to verify the situation. Technically I can’t fire anybody because my mom is paying.

      1. pancakes*

        That’s not a good response from them. I think at minimum you should contact them again and request a different carer rather than waiting on them to continue having ineffectual chats with the current one. Best thing to do would probably be to hire someone else through a different agency, though. I understand your mom is paying but she is being put in serious danger by this.

      2. tangerineRose*

        “they said they would talk to her again” This sounds like at least partially an agency issue. Do they have no one else to send? Seems like, even if they want to give the person another chance (I don’t know if I would), they could send her somewhere else and not back to your mom again.

      3. PollyQ*

        Do you have the option of switching to another agency? This is a very poor response, and it suggests that even if you got a different carer from them, the new person would be no better.

    7. RagingADHD*

      Report her to the agency again and ask for someone else!

      You don’t negotiate with people like that. You fire them.

    8. Cassidy*

      You get a different caregiver who willingly wears a mask and who reminds your mother to put on her own if she forgets to. Meanwhile, you report the “caregiver” – quotes intended – who refuses to wear a mask.

      The remedy here couldn’t be clearer

  39. Not a Tech Person*

    Any advice for onboarding outside of your subject area?

    I’m a director who is (virtually) onboarding a new technology leader. I’m not a tech person, and this is our first time hiring for this role because we haven’t been big enough to need the position before. My role and experience is more tech-adjacent, and our needs were getting far outside of my expertise.

    I’m having trouble keeping up with this new person, in part because I don’t know what they do. (If I did, I would do it myself!) I don’t know how long it takes to learn the things they need to learn about our tech environment, or how to set expectations for ownership and management when this isn’t really my area at all. Has anyone else been here?

    1. Bobina*

      Hm. I’ve not had your exact experience, but I would say if you are tech adjacent – give them an overview of where you currently are, the things *you* know and need from the tech, and then leave the rest up to them.

      I’m also curious about expectations for ownership and management – ideally when the role was created, some of this should have been figured out right? Ie where they sit in the org chart and…what the responsibilities of the role are? Does this person report to you or are they going to be a peer?

    2. Not So NewReader*

      The first group of things comes under general orientation to company rules and policies.
      Then there are standard operating procedures such as how to call in sick and other similar things.

      The next layer is the job itself. In addition to telling him what is needed explain that you will also need some idea as to time frame for a various projects and what supplies, etc he will need. You don’t want him sitting there waiting for you to buy X, when you don’t even know X is needed.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      How were they recruited in the first place, is there someone else at your company who was more involved / had more detailed technical knowledge in order to assess the new person’s suitability for the role? If so could you try reaching out to whoever that is for input?

  40. Anonymouse*

    “John” in IT is supposed to help out with our Llama Database. I need data uploaded and it’s in XML format which I don’t know how to convert from an excel file. John has uploaded data for us before.

    I told my boss this because we have a lot of data coming in that will need to be uploaded. The Llama database company makes a converter that accepts different file types and my boss told me to look into it so that we “won’t have to bother John with this if we don’t have to.”

    I understand her reasoning, but this is part of John’s job! I realize that he is busy, but otherwise it will take me a long time to key in the data. My boss always wants to figure things out for herself, which is sometimes good so that you’re not bothering anyone, but it is also helpful to get their input. There might be someone other than John that can figure it out as well.

    My boss also does this with other people in our department- we needed help, but she said that she “felt bad” and didn’t want to ask “Archibald”. She’s his boss! He was happy to help, but I don’t understand her hesitation.

    Any advice on this would be appreciated.

    1. Excel Jedi*

      Honestly, you have two different issues here. One is a boss who doesn’t like to ask for help. The other is a mentality that job definitions shouldn’t change.

      If there’s a widget that allows you to upload documents more easily, without going to an IT person, and which would free that IT person up for more complex work, that sounds like a win to me. Your manager is right to want to look into those solutions. I’d be confused and concerned if my staff complained about being able to take on uploading work themselves instead of relying on tech.

      The fact that your manager feels bad about asking for help is her and her manager’s problem, not yours to fix.

      1. NotAnotherManager!*

        This. As someone who works with a lot of data/databases, if there is a conversion tool/plug-in designed by the database manufacturer, these are almost always a better choice than having a human convert and load it (from both a time and risk-of-error standpoint). One of my teams IS John, and I’d still buy that tool for them to reduce the time and human error (which impacts time, credibility, etc.) and keep them focused on more important things.

        That doesn’t address the boss’s hesitancy to ask for help, but Excel Jedi is right that those are separate issues, the latter of which isn’t really something you can do much about other than flag when it impacts your ability to do your job.

        1. Observer*

          Exactly this.

          Keep in mind that if you push back on this, you lose a lot of credibility to also push back when it’s legitimate.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I can’t speak to much on the manager situation, but if you don’t have a dedicated database administrator, then it is probably a good idea to have a tool to do as much as you can on your end. (Is it Alteryx? It’s a blast to use! Get it!)
      If any big IT projects or emergencies come up then database stuff always seems to get moved to the bottom of the to-do list. It would be a good insurance method to bring some of the work into your department so you can keep moving forward if IT has delays.

    3. PollyQ*

      A function conversion program should take an XML file and spit out an Excel file, with minimal human interaction. There should be no “keying in of data” by anyone. This seems like a good plan and a good use of money.

    4. Observer*

      It’s always sensible to find tools that will automate tasks if the automation actually works correctly. It’s stupid to push back on it because “that’s part of X’s job”.

      If you boss is telling you to manually rekey data instead of “bothering John”, sure, push back. It’s a bigger waste of your time to re-key than for him to convert the files. But your boss is telling your to find out about a tool that does the conversion, not rekeying the data so why are you bringing that up?

    5. Girasol*

      Can you arrange with John to give you access to a tool that converts from your favored format and uploads the data, or if none exists, put a formal request for one in IT’s work queue?

  41. Noncompliance Officer*

    How do you suggest dealing with HR when the HR person is generally unpleasant and often wrong? Our current HR person came from outside the agency and outside our field. They are unfamiliar with our agency policies, but also just wrong about general HR stuff. For example, what qualifies for FMLA, ADA procedures, etc. My boss and I have both had to correct this person multiple times, which has not done wonders for the relationship or how they treat our department.

    1. Late Bloomer*

      Yikes. I would bring it up (gently) with your boss if you have a good relationship with them, as they seem to be noticing the issues as well.

    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      G0 to your HR person’s manager. It would help if your boss and their colleagues feel the same and express their frustration. HR has performance issues and bad hires just like every other department. Treat this just like you have a bad IT support person and raise the issue with their manager.

    3. Observer*

      You need to kick this upstairs. Skip “general” and “unpleasant”. Stick to specific factual situations. Like “when Susie’s daughter got sick HR person claimed that we needed to x information about the diagnosis in order to allow her to take FMLA.”‘ “HR Person said that we can’t start the interactive ADA process until Fergus explicitly asks for an accommodation”, “HR person says we don’t have to listen to Julie’s doctor about accommodations. We can choose the accommodation we want and she needs to accept that.”

    4. Pond*

      Is there someone above the HR person that your boss (or boss’ boss or someone at a closer level) could go to?

  42. warmeverythingbagel*

    I’ve been job searching for the better part of the pandemic, though I did land a steady survival job less than a week after I was laid off back in May 2020 (not in my preferred industry, but a good fit for my skills). I applied for a job at the company that laid me off before Christmas, emailed my previous supervisor who is the head of the department I applied within, and felt really good about it since she emailed me back within ten minutes saying what wonderful news it was that I had applied and that she would be reaching out soon.

    It had been radio silent until this Wednesday when a previous coworker (who didn’t get laid off) reached out with a form email that asked me to fill out a Google survey so they can “get to know me better.” From my POV, the survey is their way to handle a flood of applications and the fact that they laid off all entry-level positions and they don’t have anyone with enough bandwidth to conduct phone screens. But the survey seems so impersonal and I know that I answered basically every question in my cover letter (such as, “Why did the job posting interest you?” and “What relevant experience do you have that is the most similar to this role?”).

    And although I’m not technically an internal candidate, it feels like I am in some ways because I have so much history in this company. the role is very similar to my previous role, and I know everyone in this department so well. So I guess I’m frustrated too that I’ve been lumped in with the bulk of the candidates to do an equivalent to a phone screen. I just want to work in my industry again! Anyone experiencing something similar? I know job searching can be tough but I have worked consistently in my difficult-to-break-into industry since college and am feeling the struggle for the first time because of COVID.

    1. Glitsy Gus*

      I feel your frustration, that would be very annoying. I think first, keep reminding yourself what you said in you post, this really isn’t personal and the email and survey were probably auto-generated and sent to everyone. It’s possible that the person you technically received the email from didn’t even see your name, that the mail merge did that job. SO, yeah, this isn’t a snub, it’s just computers doing their thing.

      Fill in the survey and don’t hold back in pointing out that the reason you’re qualified is because you already worked there and know the job. After you send it back, drop a quick email to your old supervisor and let her know you completed that step. That way she can know to keep an eye out if there is anything she can do to help move you to the top of the pile. Then tell yourself once again, that yes, this is very annoying, but it isn’t personal.

    2. WellRed*

      Did you respond to the former coworker to verify you had to take it. They may not have been paying attention.

    3. Madeleine Matilda*

      It may be that they are trying to treat all applicants fairly by making everyone complete the survey or they may not have sorted through the applications yet to see if there are any known candidates. Use the survey as another opportunity to sell yourself.

      Also reach out to your previous supervisor again to let her know you have applied and received the initial survey. I think Alison had a letter recently where she said that if you had an internal contact you knew well it was OK to let them know you had applied so they would keep an eye out for your application as they screen.

  43. The Turtle*

    If you’re switching careers, how long do you give yourself in a relatively complicated job (i.e., my job is heavily built on relationship building and also federal regs to learn) to feel competent? I’m at month 8 and while I’m getting…some of it. I feel slow on learning some of these things. There are also parts of my job that I haven’t really done, just observed my boss doing, but will eventually take over. I’m trying my best not to compare buuuut. How long do you think it takes (or how long did it take you) to feel really confident in your job?

    1. Littorally*

      My job is similar (relationship building & federal regs) and I would say it took me at least a year to really feel like I wasn’t still learning the job when I started in this industry. I’ve been in my current role since mid-May and I’m still running into new situations or asking my more experienced colleagues for help with odd wrinkles of our
      function probably 2-3 times a week.

    2. Just a PM*

      It took me about a year but even still, I’m not as confident as I’d like to be because most of the people I’m having meetings with, I have never met them in person. (I started at my job 6 weeks before we went to WFH and I was still very much onboarding at the time.) I also do federal regulations and policies and that was such a learning curve I only had my jello moment a couple of weeks ago.

      Cut yourself some slack! You started a new job in a new career during a really weird and crazy time. It’s okay to take longer to learn and do what you’re there for.

    3. HR Exec Popping In*

      I’m a big believer that it takes a year to really get your feet fully under you in a new job. At 8 months you are hitting the spot where you are figuring things out but realize you still don’t know what you don’t know and that can be frustrating. Give it a little more time.

  44. Late Bloomer*

    I feel like I got a late start in my career, through a combo of the early aughts recession, the place I was born and my own lack of knowledge/laziness. I tried to chase my dream of working in art non-profits. Now I’m almost 35, making 38k (a full time job with benefits, gaining more transferable skills, which is probably the pinnacle I can expect!) in an expensive city and thinking of going back to school (part time, in the evenings) for a whole new career in the legal field (paralegal/legal assistant). I hope to be able to make a little more money and have more financial security. Am I insane? Is this a pipe dream? COVID has me questioning everything.

    1. Reba*

      Not at all.

      Have you looked into arts law and entertainment law as part of this research? If there is a demand for that in your area, that would seem to me a way that this career path would “make sense” (not that that is necessary, but it can feel good to have a story to tell!).

    2. Ginger Baker*

      Depending on where you live and what kind of firm you work for, you can make quite decent money as a paralegal. If you are able to show transferable skills for an admin (still often titled Legal Secretary….) job in the meantime, that should still be a big step up from where you are. For reference, you should definitely make between 70k and 90k as a legal secretary/admin for a BigLaw firm in NYC (possibly less with a smaller firm) and should make more than that as a paralegal in the same firm.

      1. Late Bloomer*

        That’s in line with that (experienced) paralegals make where I live. I’d be happy with 50k-60k, honestly. Part of what makes it very tempting.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Not ridiculous at all. I know lots of people who got a paralegal cert after trying other things first. I also know some who went to law school in their 30’s and 40’s. If it seems like work you’d be good at and find satisfying, that’s a great reason.

      Nobody is keeping score. You’re not “late” to anything. You were doing one kind of work, now you are going to do something different.

      People change career tracks all the time, for all kinds of reasons. It’s normal.

    4. Venus*

      I like the advice “What age would you be if you didn’t try this?” You are eventually going to be 40 and 50 years old. What do you want to be doing then?

    5. mreasy*

      I recommend looking at Devon Price’s writing about laziness and trying not to refer to yourself that way (I am also trying to break the habit). You are not insane and this seems like a very realistic path.

    6. Malika*

      Better now than never! You want to transfer to what seems to be a stable and attainable field. It therefore seems like a highly sensible situation.
      After finally being diagnosed with adhd at 38 and receiving medication, I feel since this year that i can achieve my potential for the first time in my life. I am sure to an outsider i came accross as lazy. In reality i was struggling, but couldn’t even articulate this to myself. In these situations it’s very tempting to compare ourselves to people with linear career paths. I hope you can appreciate your progress, and that you can keep taking steps forwards in your career development.

      1. Late Bloomer*

        This is really kind of you to share. I was diagnosed with major depression and general anxiety disorder as a teen (and was raised by someone with untreated mental illness) and I have lately been feeling that I had different (lower) expectations for myself because of it. I didn’t really find effective treatment until I was in my late twenties, which is a big part of why I feel like I’ve just gotten started even though I’m older.

  45. LGC*

    So I just got transferred to a new office, and…for the first time in months, I’m bored at work! It’s great.

    The minor issue (relatively speaking) is that some people habitually wear their masks improperly. What’s the best way to approach this as a new supervisor? I don’t want to be overbearing. (I’ve also caught my current co-supervisor with her mask partly down as well.)

    The MAJOR issue is…the project is pretty delayed, from what my boss has said. But I’m not sure whether she wants me to address this or whether it’s not an issue right now, given that the client is working with a skeleton crew right now.

    1. Captain Biggs and Wedge*

      If the office poster police is not too strict, there might be no harm in printing some of those half-joking “How to Wear a Facemask” PSAs in the office.

      1. LGC*

        I used to be the poster police! And actually I think we do have some of those posters (they’re ubiquitous here).

    2. LGC*

      Okay, so, I phrased the second part awkwardly. My boss said the project was very behind, and I think I’m pretty good at getting production on schedule. But I’m extremely wary about bulldozing people, and I’m not sure if she’s even that concerned (in the past, other projects have been significantly delayed and she didn’t address it until the customer brought it up).

      It’s also a project I have past familiarity with, so I’m not starting from scratch. And I might have some ideas. But I’m not sure whether they want my input.

      1. Bobina*

        Why not just ask her? I’ve gone to my boss and said “This thing is delayed, do you want me to try and push as much as possible or are you fine with how things are?” Sometimes there are other priorities and they dont care, sometimes they do.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Are being “bored at work” and the lateness of the project linked? (as in, e.g. .. you are “downstream” of something that’s got delayed, so you/your team can’t carry out your part of the project until upstream has delivered their part?)
      Can you get a feeling from your co-supervisor (or your direct reports, as long as you “trust but verify”! :) …) about what the situation is?
      Based on what you’ve said, I think “the project is pretty delayed” is just factual information, or she would have asked you to take action, but check with boss rather than assume!
      Is there anything else (tactical/strategic as it may be) work you can take on in the meantime to be in a better place for working on the project when it ramps up, or just to be in a better place in general as the new supervisor?

  46. Midwestern Weegie*

    How do I ask for less money….?

    My current company is liquidating, and I have an excellent job offer on the table. It’s doing the same work I’m currently doing and very much enjoy, but it’s a temporary position without benefits. I am pregnant, and have young children, who were on my insurance. My spouse’s insurance is unaffordable (think 4 figures per month). Currently, my children and I qualify for Medicaid, which I will lose if I take this offer.

    I really don’t know how to say “yes, I want this job… but I want less money than you’re offering” without sounding like a complete idiot, or laying all my cards on the table.

    1. Weekend Please*

      First, consider reaching out to an insurance broker to find out what type of subsidy you would qualify for if you took the job and got an ACA plan. You may be surprised and find it is actually affordable with the subsidy. Most insurance brokers do not charge a consultation fee so you have nothing to loose and can get a better understanding of your options.

      If you won’t get enough of a subsidy, then I think you need to simply be honest with he company. Tell them that you can’t afford to lose medicaid for a temporary position without benefits and what salary you would need them to offer in order to accept (both the number that keeps you medicaid eligible and the number that you need to buy other insurance).

      1. Midwestern Weegie*

        I did reach out to an insurance broker the day my company announced the liquidation. I am guaranteed to hit my deductible this year, what with having a baby and all, which means that I have to factor an extra couple of thousand dollars into the cost. The breakdown was basically I’d need $8 more per hour than they’re offering in order to not go into debt from the deductible, or ask for $5 less per hour in order to keep medicaid.

        I’d be making less money than the team I’d be leading (I get to bring my team with me!), but at least I won’t have thousands of dollars of medical debt…

      2. Weekend Please*

        Another thing to look into is whether your kids would qualify for CHIP and whether that would make this job feasible.

    2. Disco Janet*

      Does this job offer insurance that you’d be able to afford with the pay increase? If not, you may have to lay your cards on the table here. Not ideal, but might be necessary.

      1. Midwestern Weegie*

        Nope- nothing. No benefits whatsoever, which is why they offered a pretty decent increase from my previous salary.

    3. CatCat*

      I’d lay the cards on the table if this is a deal breaker (and it sounds like it is!). This blows and it is frustrating how Medicaid can be all-or-none.

      Maybe something like, “I’m excited about the position and would love to accept! However, because their are no health insurance benefits, I rely on other coverage through a healthcare program hard income limits. As such, I can only accept the offer if the pay is $X. Would that work?”

      My biggest concern is if this lead to full time work with benefits at the same company and the company tries to keep you at the same rate of pay. But cross that bridge when you come to it if getting this temporary position is more important for your current situation.

    4. Another JD*

      Will you meet the Medicaid income requirements at the current offer once your baby is born? If so, maybe ask for $x-5 now, then $X+5 as a guaranteed raise when your baby is born?

      Did you check the price of COBRA insurance?

      Can you ask for PTO and a lower salary?

      P.S. I’m sorry and this sucks.

    5. Jaded Millenial*

      One strategy: ask they to trade a portion of your salary for more vacation time! Then you get two benefits!
      If they say no, then you might have to have the other discussions…
      Good luck!

  47. helpet*

    I don’t want to go back into the office! I work in public health and up until about 4 months ago my job required me to physically go into an off-site work location every day (february through four months ago…) I got transitioned into a new project that can technically be done almost 100% from home (a few things like boxing up items or inspecting items and mailing them out that I might need to go in like every other week or so). But my supervisor is super old fashioned and moved me and my other coworker on this project into this little office in our new location. He hasn’t explicitly said “you can never work from home,” but he’s always badmouthing and making fun of work from home people. for being lazy and he clearly thinks people just can’t/don’t work from home. The rest of our office (who had been doing a combination of telework and working at our normal office location since February) have been exclusively teleworking since December due to a massive increase in cases.

    Anyway, we’ve had a few COVID cases the past couple months and last week a coworker who I had fairly close contact with tested positive. She literally came in that morning and took one of the rapid tests and was positive. I was on my way in so one of my coworkers called and told me I don’t have to come in if I don’t want to. So I didn’t lol. Everyone else is apparently going in and getting rapid tests every day. I haven’t been in since and no one had discussed me returning but I am guessing they will soon or I need to talk about it soon. I had already been testing the waters with teleworking by asking to do it on a specific day of the week because that day is literally zoom meetings from 7:00 to 6:00 and there’s no need for me to be in the office for that (there’s not a need anyway, but at least it was an excuse haha).

    How can I possibly approach just not going back unless I need to? What is the best wording and how should I bring up my return (or should I wait for someone to ask when I’m coming back?) I feel like they’ll want me in at least a few days a week. There’s so many reasons I don’t want to keep going in 1) I used to walk 8 minutes to work and now I’m driving 20 and I have severe driving anxiety 2) my work hours are now approximately 7-6 when they used to be 8-4 and it’s much better to do that from home… 3) COVID!!! Why expose myself and others if it’s not necessary? All my coworkers (other than the one who just got COVID) are 65+ older men or young men in their 20’s who are super “tough guys” and I’m a healthy 26 year old woman so I know I’ll be judged for being scared of COVID when there are much higher risk people physically going in. Also because I’m early career I feel like I can’t ask for these things sometimes.

    1. Juneybug*

      I would be curious what the company’s leadership/HR is thinking about future WFH options. Are they for it or against it? Are there situations where it is acceptable? I would reach out to HR first to see if they have information about upcoming plans. And ask them if it’s possible to work from home. Your boss might not be passing along info that the company is allowing WFH options.
      I would also ask leadership, using a curious tone, when you see them in the elevator, break room, etc. – so what are the company’s plans about working from home?
      I would ignore your boss. He’s an idiot.
      Good luck!

  48. Disco Janet*

    I get my Covid vaccine today – woo hoo! Work related since my job as an in-person teacher is the only reason I’m allowed to get it now, haha.

    I sent this in to one of the teacher columns awhile back but haven’t heard anything, so I thought I’d toss it out here and see what people think. The end of the semester is approaching, and my students just turned in their final essay of the semester. I am getting an incredibly large amount of emails from parents requesting to know if their child turned in their essay, how it looks, when it will be graded, etc. Then they start CCing the principal if they don’t receive a response almost immediately (like e-mail me at the end of the school day and send a nasty note about not getting a response yet the next morning.) It’s completely out of hand – grading essays takes twice as long as necessary because I keep having to stop…to respond to e-mails about why essays aren’t graded yet. Ugh. The irony.

    My coworkers and I have brainstormed a couple potential solutions but are interested in hearing some non-teacher opinions and which you’d prefer as a parent.
    1. Sending a welcome e-mail at the beginning of the semester that nicely but firmly addresses this issue, letting parents know that their child can show them whether or not they turned in their essay (they can still view it even once it’s turned in), and asking them to please wait a week past the due date to send any grading questions so that we have time to focus on grading and giving their children feedback as quickly as possible.

    2. Sending an e-mail letting parents know that an essay is due a couple days before the due date, and then giving them the above reminder about please holding off on grading questions, and asking their child about it if they would like to see confirmation that it was submitted.

    3. Not doing any of the above, but just having a copy and paste type generic message to send to the parents who send these e-mails. That way we’re not sending the message to anyone who doesn’t need to hear it, but I suspect some parents will find this off-putting and want a more personalized response.

    Open to other suggestions as well! We all agree it’s gotten out of hand, but are struggling to find a solution that works. Sending individual responses to all of these parents is just taking up way too much time. For context, the parents are used to having access to their student’s Google Classroom and being able to see everything they’re doing at all times, but beginning in 10th grade (which I teach), we begin to transition away from that to try to build more student independence.

    1. Weekend Please*

      I think a combination of 1 and 3 is best. I like the welcome e-mail and setting expectations on when they will receive the grades. You could also include instructions one how they can check if it was turned in themselves. Then have a copy paste message ready that reiterates those points if they start pestering you. Depending on the students ages, you could also say that you will reach out to parents if the student does not turn in their essay on time but I would only do that if the students are at an age where they can’t be expected to manage deadlines on their own.

      1. Disco Janet*

        They’re 15/16, so at the age where we want them to be learning to manage deadlines on their own. Thanks for the suggestion! A combination will likely be necessary if we go with #1.

        1. Observer*

          Do NOT send reminder emails to parents. That’s encouraging the exact behavior you want to STOP.

    2. NJBi*

      Oh my goodness, those parents!! I’m in higher ed in a student-facing role (think TA, but not prof), so most of the way to a non-teacher opinion…

      I really like the first option, laying all that info on the table at once. Perhaps you could also make a one-page flyer with instructions for how to see the work that students have turned in and, in big type, “DO NOT ASK ME ABOUT GRADES FOR AT LEAST A WEEK.” (The fact that this needs to be said at all…!) If you get enough of these emails to where it’s most of what you receive in the 48-72 hours before a big due date, you might even think about putting an automatic reply on your email account that says, “Hi, due to high grading load at this point in the semester, it might take me up to two business days to reply to your email. The rubric for this assignment is available here. If you are a parent writing to me about grading, please see this reference sheet for information about how to see your student’s assignments. I am not able to respond to inquiries from parents about student assignments for at least one week while I grade the assignments.” Then you can drop in the new rubric for each major assignment, and turn the auto-reply on and off as needed.

      That buys you some time until you can sit down and bang out replies to 15 parents at once. It’s totally absurd for parents to expect quick responses from you about grading stuff while you’re supposed to be grading. I definitely think a form email that you can lightly customize is sufficient here if the auto-reply is a no-go. If the kid needs more info, the kid can reach out–these are 10th graders!!

      1. Disco Janet*

        I really like some of your wording here! Thank you so much – saving it in a document for when we create our generic automatic reply type message. (Well, I can’t actually set it to automatic reply as I get too many e-mails from my boss for that. But it would be a good copy/paste type thing.)

        1. Bobina*

          Depending on your mail client and how happy you are using rules, a quick google showed that its possible to have automatic replies that only go to certain people (eg people outside your organisation). So if you really want – you could definitely have automatic messages that are only sent around grading period to annoying parents!

          1. another_scientist*

            yes, most email clients should let you prepare a ‘canned message’. In Gmail, it’s called templates. When you get a pesky parent message, you can respond with a few clicks: hit reply, go to templates, pick a template, hit send.

    3. em*

      1 and 3. Having something on your syllabus/welcome letter along the lines of “Grades are usually posted within a week of the due date” to set the expectation, and then a form follow-up reinforcing it if people ask. It sounds like they already have access to see if things have been graded/turned in so it’s obnoxious that they’re even asking, but the follow-up could also direct them to your website/gradebook as if oh, of course they would’ve checked there if they’d known!

      Don’t send out reminders because high schoolers should be expected to keep track of their own deadlines even if it’s … challenging to make that happen lol

      1. em*

        Also, unless there’s an expectation that you answer parent emails within a very short time period, could you just log out/mute notifications while you’re grading? Set aside 10 minutes a day to send out the “stop bugging me” responses and don’t even read them while you’re focused on other work.

    4. Observer*

      I would do #1, an auto-responder to messages about assignments saying something like “I will respond to your email within the next day” or whatever is reasonable, and then blocking our a specific amount of time to answer emails from parents. For parents who are asking things that were answered in your opening email, I would have a canned cheerful “Oh, that was covered in the welcome email. Here is it with the instructions” and attach that email. And, unless your school has a policy otherwise, do not get into actual discussions of the kids’ work. The only kind of question you should be answering are things like “Johnny handed in his paper last week. When should he expect to see his grade?” and the answer should look like “By the end of the week” or whatever the time frame is.

    5. This Old House*

      As a parent (although of younger kids), I’d prefer a combination of 1 and 3. 2 gives up too much ground if the goal is to get the kids to manage their own deadlines, not the parents. I think 1 alone would be ignored by the parents who need it most, but might get a few people off your back, and 3 would be a necessary reminder to the ones who ignore 1.

    6. Veronica*

      What does the principal do when she gets these emails? If she thinks your fine, you don’t need to jump every time a parent complains.
      Or maybe an auto reply “grading periods are very busy and I may not be able to reply to your email with the normal 48 hours. Then instructions on how to ask their kids….

    7. Girasol*

      Considering that AAM often addresses embarrassing job interview issues where Dad arranged an interview and ordered his offspring to go, and Mom called afterward to bawl out the interviewer when son or daughter wasn’t hired, I wonder if (1) isn’t the ideal solution. At that age they’re right on the eve of taking on that level of responsibility. You could help both the parents and the kids learn where to set boundaries. If the price of a stern lesson on actions and consequences turns out to be a low grade, that’s not so awful, is it?

    8. Black Horse*

      What the… 10th grade? I was expecting you to say you were teaching kids in their first year of middle school.

      I’m answering 100% from a parent perspective (6th, 9th and 12th grades). The 15/16 age range isn’t known for communicating well with parents, so I do understand the parents’ frustration. But unless there are known problems (the child is close to failing, or clearly falling behind on their work, in which case I’m assuming you already have a conversation going with the parents), that’s a communication issue between parent and child, not between parent and teacher. I think the combo of #1 and #3 is a great way to go, with your #3 template cheerfully repeating the “your kid can show you what they’ve done, it’ll take a week before we have everything graded, thanks for your understanding!”. And I would definitely play up the “we’re teaching your child to be independent scholars!” since that is a significant part of why you are doing things the way you’re doing them. I am curious if this is an issue new this year (when everyone is so stressed and, at least in our house, on top of each other more than normal), or if you have this problem every year; not sure that will change your response, but it may be worth thinking about.
      And as an aside, thanks so much for what you are doing!

    9. Anonymous for now*

      Hi Disco Janet,
      If you’re stil checking this thread, can you tell me the teacher boards you read? Thank you!

  49. Tax resources for freelancers*

    I’m starting to branch out into a new but somewhat related industry on a freelance basis, and I’m trying to read up on all the tax procedures, but I don’t have an accountant’s brain, so the legalese on the IRS website isn’t as clear to me as I’d like. Are there any freelancers here with some good resources to recommend? How does the quarterly estimate thing work? What else do I absolutely, definitely need to know?

    1. Lifelong student*

      CPA here- rule of thumb- assume that somewhere between 25-30% of what your net take in will go to taxes and keep it in a separate account. Basic taxes- social security and medicare- 15.3%- due with your federal income tax when you file it at the end of the year. Federal income tax at your marginal rate. State and local income tax. Those are mostly often due as quarterly payments- You can find the forms online by taxing agency. Quarterly payments are due in April, June, Oct., and Jan of following year.

      There are sometimes other local business taxes.

      A lot is dependent on your locale.

      Read up on business deductions- track and document things which may be deductible to arrive at the net take in.
      Plan on having a tax professional do your return at least the first time- and on an ongoing basis if this becomes a larger enterprise.

      1. Lifelong student*

        Oh- and keep all this in mind when you set your fees! These are costs of doing business as a freelancer!

    2. LuckySophia*

      You likely need a separate tax ID number for your freelance business, check with an accountant or lawyer. Set up a separate business checking account for your freelance work, and absolutely do not run any of your personal expenses through that account…use it for business expenses only. Don’t forget about acquiring State and City or County Business Licenses if they’re required in your area (I think they are required in most areas.) When I started out as a “Sole Proprietor”, I had my accountant help me set up simple systems for tracking income & expenses and tabulating the totals monthly, so I always had a picture of where things stood. Make sure you clarify with your clients the exact procedures they have for project management: Do you have to get registered in their system as a vendor? Do you have to sign a confidentiality agreement? Do you have to submit a formal written estimate or bid, and then wait to receive their purchase order, before starting any work on a project? Make sure there is clarity about your invoice terms. My company’s terms were “Net 30 days”….but a large client had a rule that they would only pay “Net 60 days”. So that had to be negotiated! (For whatever it’s worth….I had zero “accounting” brain cells when I started my business, but all this stuff can be learned. When you talk to your accountant or lawyer, take good notes, refer to them often, mark you calendar with tax-filing dates. Keep organized and all the stuff that is “new” will soon become second nature! )

      1. Lifelong student*

        You won’t need a separate tax ID number if you are a sole proprietor without employees. Maybe if you are doing business under a separate name.

  50. Laney Boggs*

    I’m a not-so recent college grad (2017) that’s had trouble breaking into my field. I’ve been working restaurant and customer service jobs over the last nearly four years.

    My resume currently has my college degree, college work experience doing writing/editing, and then my most recent CS work, with about a 18month gap between graduating &My current company.

    Is this OK? I know Allison generally advocates for just using relevant experience, and I’ve generally assumed everyone can guess what I was doing for those 18 months. But also, I’m desperate to get out of this job & dont want to hurt any chances

    1. CatCat*

      I’m not sure I understand the gap. Are you leaving off work during that period because you don’t think the work is relevant? Or you were not working at all during those 18 months?

    2. Observer*

      I think you are misunderstanding the advice. Don’t leave significant jobs or expect people to “guess what you have been doing”. They might guess correctly or they might not.

      Better show that you were working than not. Put the jobs in.

    3. Retired worker bee*

      I wouldn’t dare leave an 18 month gap on my resume, especially if I had been working during those 18 months. I would be too afraid that companies might think that I spent those 18 months in jail.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        That … is not usually the first assumption. Employers will just ask what you were doing during that time. No one is assuming you were imprisoned (!).

        (That said, I agree with others that the work should go on there. But it’s not because it raises the specter of prison otherwise.)

      2. PT*

        It doesn’t raise the specter of prison, but I used to work at an organization that ran child programming, and odd resume gaps were considered a “red flag” for someone leaving a job off a resume because they’d been asked to leave for inappropriate behavior towards a child (the sort of behavior where the reference, if checked, would say, “I really can’t recommend Fergus for this position, he shouldn’t be around children, he has a terrible temper/is creepy/had the preschool group watch uncensored South Park episodes all day every day.”)

        That does not mean someone with a resume gap would be automatically assumed to be a hazard! Plenty of people with resume gaps can and did get jobs with us! It would just mean if you saw something else in the resume or interview process that made you question whether Fergus would be a good fit for being in charge of a group of children, you should err on the side of caution and connect those two dots.

  51. em*

    I know you don’t have to include every job on a resume, but do you have to list them all on an application or elsewhere?

    I once left a job without notice after about two months, which I can kind of explain away with a physical health issue I had at the time but still cringe about. I assume it would show up on a background check, but would an employer see that it was in the background check but not my work history? Is it better to list it even though it makes me look terrible?

    If it matters, I work in K-12 education in the US.

    1. Paris Geller*

      In my experience it depends on the application. Some applications ask for all jobs you’ve had in the last ten years. Some for all relevant work experience. Some ask for every job you’ve ever had, which I personally find ridiculous but there it is. I think if an application ask for all work experience, it’s better to list just in case. Honestly, though, if you left one job after two months and then had steady, long-term work after that, I wouldn’t be too worried.

      1. em*

        Unfortunately I don’t have a great-looking work history overall (trailing spouse then SAHM). So it’s like 4 years of working in state A, 1 year gap in state B (+ghosted job), 1 year working in state C, 5 years SAHM in states C and D. I can and have addressed the appearance of job-hopping in cover letters and interviews but this one job makes me look less like a professional who had to move a few times and more like a flake, despite having good references and a solid reason for leaving the earlier job.

    2. Kiwiii*

      I’m not familiar with how they do look backs in K-12, but I can’t imagine anyone seeing a 2 month job left off and having that be a flag — imo, it would say more about their expectations than yours, if they had an issue with it.

    3. pretzelgirl*

      I have left jobs off resumes and included them on applications. I had a job right after college that was a literal nightmare. I lasted about a week and do not include it on any of my resumes. I also did a temp job for about a month, I don’t include either. But since applications are more official and can be used for background checks I include. I have found that most hiring managers don’t really use the application anyway. They used my resume, to go over my past accomplishments, etc.

    4. Policy Wonk*

      Not for work (yes, you need to list everything for a security clearance) but in the case of a background check I needed for volunteer work with kids I was asked for everything for I think the last 10 years. I wouldn’t put it on my resume, but if they have some kind of form for the background check yes, list you need to list it there. Don’t wait for it to show up on the check.

  52. Furloughed in Texas*

    I am being furloughed starting Monday.

    I met with HR, they are continuing my heath care (plus paying my portion) for the duration, I won’t have email or network access, but can use my computer for personal use, I asked about my health savings account, how much notice they would give when/if I’m called back,

    What am I missing? Any other good questions to ask or info to have?
    I’ve never been furloughed before, I am eligible and will file for unemployment, do I look for other jobs? Right away? After a few weeks?

    I’m fortunate that I have savings, a spouse with a job, and some safety net, so I will get through this. I’m planning to take a week or so to relax, then volunteering; industry required continuing education webinars, and maybe study for some professional certifications.

    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      Ask about any accrued paid time off and if they will cash it out now or carry it over. In some states you have to pay it out when someone is furloughed (California).

      You should start looking for a new job. Obviously the company hopes that they will be able to have you return, but I think I read something recently that said about half of furloughed workers end up being laid off. I’m not sure about that number though. Good luck!

  53. SBM*

    *sigh* if I haven’t heard back after an interview after I’ve already followed up once I should leave it right? Like a second follow up after one non-response is a no-go?

      1. SBM*

        About a month, they gave me a timeline of about 2-3 weeks. It’s a government job so I gave them a bit more time because of *gestures at everything* (also because I know goverment hiring is slow even in more standard circumstances). I guess I can properly wallow and move on now though, haha

        1. Kiwiii*

          Oh, yeah, my previous job was in state government — there’s really no timeline they stick to and they only close the loop about half the time. I’d try not to think about it and be pleasantly surprised if they do follow up.

  54. Kiwiii*

    A little good news — I’ve been here before when I moved to my first professional full time job in Nov 2018 at about $16/hr, and then when I moved to my current job in Aug 2019, where I asked for a little more money at offer and they went from $41.5k to $42.5k. After a 6 month delay due to covid, I just got a yearly raise + a promotion and raise (from I to II with the same general title), and am up to $47k (which — around 10%)!

    Hoping to stay put for at least another year or two — before this I did a lot of job hopping, but besides a week where some stuff got fumbled in November, I haven’t been antsy to leave at all.

  55. Llama Wrangler*

    I have an college intern starting next month and would love people’s tips for supporting interns remotely. We are a small department, and don’t have interns regularly, so there’s not an established structure to plug them into. This is through an outside partnership, so I don’t yet have a strong sense of their skillset and ability to work independently (with support) – our previous interns were pre-pandemic, and one of them was able to work very independently once she was set up on a task, while the other one really struggled and needed a much more hands-on approach.

    I’m curious how other people have approached developing, supporting, observing, etc for interns in fully-remote contexts. (This person will be doing about 8-10 hours a week of work.)

    1. Caterpie*

      I did a fully remote internship this summer, so I hope its ok to give my opinion here! My internship was full time, so I’m sure there will be differences between that and an 8-10 hour/week position.

      Two things that helped me feel more integrated into the team were (1) a virtual ‘happy hour’ in which I got to put names to faces and introduce myself, and (2) my internship supervisor had me do an informational interview (Zoom-based) with a C-suite person at the company so I could learn more about their mission and how it ran from the top level. C-suite person later pulled me in to work on their own projects, so that was a valuable experience.

      Does your workplace have document sharing software available? Me working on a document while my internship supervisor could look at the document live and give suggestions over the phone seemed to work well for us. As I got more experience, I could write the documents independently and coordinate edits over email.

      2. Hi there*

        My office had 25 remote interns at different nonprofits over the summer, and those activities went well. Besides the informational interview we also asked them to do a professional development activity of their choice (we gave them a menu, the most popular was a linked in learning, especially excel). We also tried to have a mix of little projects and a big one that we built up towards over the summer.

        1. Llama Wrangler*

          I like the idea of a variety of small projects and building up to a big project over time.

  56. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    How do you evaluate a new internal job? My boss said Company is doing New Thing. It reminds me of you and I was like Oh I used to do Thing a while back. It might be easier to get my license doing New Thing but with the lack of training at my company I’m not sure I’ll be able to become good at Thing. I was OK at Thing before but only did it for a short time.

    About last weeks question I answered by saying I was watching a new series and then we talked about TV.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Sorry, I’m not really able to parse what you’re trying to ask; the context you provided after your initial question is confusing me.

      On your first question: I think I would evaluate an internal position pretty similarly to any other position, but with the benefit of being able to talk with the hiring team.

  57. Beezus*

    This is a super random question, but does anyone know of a decent overview of basic HR practices for Canada?

    1. HR Exec Popping In*

      SHRM has an article that outlines the differences in HR between the US and Canada. It is named “5 Ways HR in Canada is Different”. It is a little dated (May of 2018) but covers:
      – Termination of employment
      – Parental benefits
      – Marijuana
      – Sexual harassment
      – Minimum wage

  58. Kat*

    I hope this is an appropriate place for this question, but I am looking for recommendations on really comfortable shoes for work in a business-casual (but more on the casual side) office. Working at home has got me really hating putting on anything other than my fuzzy slippers to go into the office! What work shoes have you found that feel good? I have very flat feet with narrow heels so I tend to gravitate towards boots or mary jane style flats or low heels since anything that isn’t well secured to my feet tend to fall off when I’m walking!

    1. Cat Tree*

      I wear flat boots from Aerosoles with custom orthotics from my podiatrist. They come in wide widths, aren’t super expensive, and hold up pretty well.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      They’re a little spendy, but my go-to for nicer shoes is Rothys round-toe flats – I have flattish feet with wide toes and narrow heels, so I feel you on the fallings-off, but the Rothys have been great. In terms of comfort, I have literally taken a pair brand new out of the box, put them on my feet and gone for a three mile walk around my neighborhood without any issues, and in years past, I’ve worn them for full 10-12 mile days at Disneyworld. They come in a frazillion color options, the insoles are removable so if you want to put nicer ones in you can, and they’re machine washable. They do NOT have any stretch at all, if that’s a concern, and some folks find they get stinky, but I personally have not found that to be the case.

      I’m not familiar with their other styles, though I was getting ready to try a pair of their Chelsea boots pre-lockdown, but opted to wait since I’ve left my house like three times in any given two-month period for the last almost-year.

    3. Comfortable flats*

      Try Hotter shoes. They’re pricey from the UK and you have to look through a lot of grandma shoes. But they have some really cute and nice flats that are great for working & walking.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      I have the same problem with shoes not staying on my feet. I have good luck with Bob’s by Skechers – they have tons of cute flats, some have extra padding, and they stay on my feet!

    5. Lyudie*

      I like Clarks a lot. They run a little wide for me (my feet are a bit narrow) but styles like boots or loafers that I wear with socks are fine. I have spent most of a day walking in the city with them and they were great.

    6. Policy Wonk*

      I love San Antonio Shoemakers (SAS) for work. My daughter who is on her feet all day loves NurseMates.

    7. Working mom*

      Tieks are my favorite! Lots of colors and super comfortable. Definitely an investment but once I started wearing them I haven’t worn anything else.

    8. It happens*

      Ah, fellow flat-footer here. I see people have recommended Rothy’s, they are not good for us. Though I have four pairs to tell you I’ve tried. They are so cute. And comfy. But flat as a pancake with no sole to speak of. If you like the idea of them, I found a $30 knock off at Macy’s from Alfani. Seemingly the same, but better, Allbirds flats. They have more of an insole and sole, and are also washable. My seven months a year solution now. Many colors.

      Generally, flat feet need a little elevation, so I’m in boots once it’s boot weather. With tights when I’m wearing skirts (what are those anymore;) After a few calf injuries that turned into plantar fasciitis my doc told me I had to wear something on my feet at all times. So I got the ugliest pair of on-sale Merrell clogs I could find and now I stomp around my house all the time.

      1. S.*

        I have elastic shoe straps, in clear, that make me feel more secure and prevent that ugly flapping sound.

    9. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Skechers – I am on my 3rd pair (because I like them, not because they haven’t lasted, haha!)

  59. Cat Tree*

    I feel overwhelmed. I have a project that I just don’t know how to do. I keep getting asked for updates because it’s high profile. In December I asked my boss to find a mentor from another department that has done this kind of thing. I don’t want to just ask someone informally for help because it will be a big time commitment. My boss did reach out to that group’s boss but nothing can of it because December is a busy month.

    Now my grandboss has scheduled a check-in meeting because he’s frustrated with the lack of progress. My boss offered to help by giving me input on my presentation but I want more than that. To make it more frustrating, I could have at least made some progress in December, however inefficient, if I had time to work on it. But two important, urgent things came up in December that my boss wanted me to help with. Both times he went to the trouble of asking if I had the capacity to help, I said no, and he said to do it anyway because those things were a higher priority and other stuff could wait. Well, this project waited and now I’m behind.

    I will ask for a project mentor again at my next 1:1, but even if that pans out it won’t be soon enough for me to accomplish something impressive by the check-in meeting. I know it won’t be *bad* but I’m embarrassed to present something mediocre. This weird form of perfectionism where I’m more worried about being mediocre than actually failing is something I have been working on.

    1. small & unsure*

      It sounds like you have been doing your best but need more support and time to work on this project. Do you think your grandboss would be open to you asking for those things in your meeting?

    2. BRR*

      Your boss needs to explain to your grandboss that he assigned you two things that held up progress on the high profile project. If your boss won’t do that, I’d figure out a way to somehow mention the other tasks to your grandboss.

      I think you need to ask for what resources you need to get this done. Training? Move some tasks to other people? Get someone to devout some time to this? It sounds like you need something other than a project mentor.

    3. Gumby*

      Can you reframe it in your mind so that for this meeting being good at your job means presenting an accurate picture of progress, next steps, timeline, etc.?

      Being “good” does not mean pretending you are on schedule or have accomplished more than you have – that would be being **horrible** at running the project! You could also change the way you think of other things: higher priority projects are not excuses – they are business realities. Not having time to work on this because you had to do that and the other thing is not a personal failing. It’s just reality. Ditto not having the expertise that is needed. The only failing would have been had you not said something and tried to fake your way through – but you didn’t! You did the right thing and tried to get access to the needed expertise! This meeting with the grand boss could actually be a great opportunity where you could really get some traction on getting the help and time you need.

      In this situation, absolute transparency is probably your friend. Hiding the problems just makes the project sponsor think things are fine and then when/if larger problems or delays arise later it’ll be all “but you said things were fine!”

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      This is an interesting one that I can somewhat relate to.
      Will your immediate boss be in the check-in meeting with the grandboss?
      Do you have a sense of whether or how much visibility the grandboss has about this project? — it’s high profile, but grandboss either knows it isn’t making much progress (but presumably doesn’t know why) and is frustrated by that, or is frustrated with a lack of “updates” on progress. Which is it in fact – has your boss been communicating with grandboss about the status of this project? (if not then why).

      Then your immediate boss potentially undermined the company’s priorities by redirecting you on to those other projects. Were they really more urgent? I appreciate that “urgent” and “high profile” are not always the same and often at odds with each other!

      What should have happened in most companies is your boss should have been communicating to grandboss that “Cat Tree has had to be redirected to work on the XYZ deliverable, so her progress on Project P will be delayed accordingly” and then boss and grandboss work out the priorities between them. And in most places grandboss would be checking in with your boss, rather than with you directly, about the status of Project P.

      Also important: do you think that you “should” know how to do this project, as part of your role and expected competencies but you don’t? Or is it that the project is outside of your usual area of expertise, or similar, so you just don’t know how to do it because it isn’t something you have any experience with?

      [Frame challenge that you didn’t ask for:] I’m not so sure that being “more worried about being mediocre than actually failing” is a flaw to work on, as such. Do you mean something like being afraid to accept something “ok” when circumstances demand it when you know it could be better (perfection being the enemy of just getting it done)? It all depends on the reasons for failing and the impact of a mediocre (rather than good or great) delivery :)

  60. Scared and Broke*

    I’m really struggling at work and I’m wondering when it becomes appropriate to take long term mental health leave.

    My current position is an hourly contract position where I don’t have paid leave or benefits, and the firm’s “hit by a bus” plan basically says that if I’m not comatose, I need to actively track deadlines on all my cases and contact my coworkers to ask them to do each individual task so that nothing gets missed. There are legal consequences to missing some of these deadlines. That level of involvement is not something I could do while taking MH leave— it’s stressful to the point that the leave wouldn’t work.

    But my health is doing incredibly poorly working this job. I’m crying multiple times per day, too nauseous to eat, staying up all night worrying. I’ve had to call multiple crisis hotlines to calm myself down enough to not quit on the spot or leave a sobbing voicemail for my boss. The work is inherently stressful, I’m not particularly good at it, and the intermittent pay (I’m only paid if there’s work for me to do, and there isn’t always) has so far not been enough to cover my rent. I’m looking for new work, but if I drop this job before finding something else I’ll be in more debt than I am already and the job market is bad enough it took me 5 months to even get this job.

    I’m so scared that I can’t take this leave without being fired, so I don’t want to take leave if it’s possible not to. At what point should I bite the bullet and just say “I am so sick I need to leave for 2 weeks and cannot be involved in monitoring my cases”? My instinct says sometime before I become suicidal, but I really don’t know what to do.

    1. SpicySpice*

      First, I’m so sorry. This sounds rough and no matter how it turns out, this internet stranger is rooting for you. Second, how’s your relationship with your boss? If you flat out told them that you are struggling badly, do you get the sense that they would be open to helping you?
      If you only get paid if there’s work, and therefore you’re not getting paid a lot, would it seriously be more cost effective to get some random job elsewhere? There’s no shame in being a Target cashier or whatever for a while to get your mind right.

      1. Scared and Broke*

        My boss definitely has an attitude of “I’m far too busy and important for your problems”, which was annoying when my problems were “he’s procrastinating on my employment contract” and not, like, serious health concerns. Another employee recently quit (because of poor treatment) and the rhetoric about how everyone else was left in the lurch has been pretty hostile. He might step up if I’m in the hospital, but if I’m not, I think there’d be a lot of contacting me when I’m out, blaming me for work not getting done, and guilt trips about taking time.

        A full-time retail job might pay more than I’m currently making– my hourly wage now is a lot higher than retail jobs, but the workload is closer to 5-10 hours a week so a full 40-hr slate at a lower wage might balance out. My primary concern taking that route would be experience in my field– there are next to no entry level jobs in my field, so any amount of relevant work is important to getting a proper job. I’m gonna have to weigh my options carefully here; work experience, pay, stability, risk of COVID– a lot of factors to be sure. I should keep that in mind, though.

        1. Janne*

          Your mental health is much, much, much more important than experience in your field. It has been said already, but I just wanted to repeat it. Crying every day, multiple times a day, not being able to eat normally, not being able to sleep normally, having to call crisis hotlines: this is not just a bit of a stressful job, this is hurting you badly.

    2. Witch*

      Take the mental health leave now. I’m in the same boat, where I’m always under pressure and struggling mentally. You need to divorce the amount of care you have about your work. If you’re fired (especially for taking mental health leave), you can likely apply for unemployment.

      Don’t quit, exactly, but realize your main priority now needs to be you. Then finding a new job. Then doing the bare minimum for this one. Get selfish, almost.

      1. Scared and Broke*

        Unfortunately, I haven’t worked enough W-9 hours in my state to qualify for normal unemployment, and the COVID-19 provisions for independent contractors only apply to people losing work because of COVID (vs people losing work for other reasons that would normally qualify). I’d go from making some money to making none if I lose this job. I wish the unemployment system worked differently than it does.

        1. Observer*

          If you are worried about becoming suicidal, not having a job is less of a risk. So, you don’t really have much of a choice. Take the leave.

    3. Weekend Please*

      I am so sorry! From what you have written here, it sounds like the time to take that mental health leave is now. It is probably time to leave this job altogether, so having them fire you for taking leave because of your mental health may make you eligible for unemployment. But this job is causing you to have a mental health crisis AND doesn’t pay you enough to live on. It sounds like right now you are sinking further and further into debt while working a job that is making you actually think you could become suicidal. Find a job in retain, fast food, instacart, door dash, uber basically absolutely anywhere other than where you are right now. Then once you are able to recover your mental health you can start looking for a job in your field.

    4. Observer*

      It doesn’t matter what their “plan” is. If you are taking leave (and therefore not being paid) then you CANNOT be expected to track this stuff.

      Get a note from your doctor – it’s generally not legally binding but if your company is even HALFWAY decent, it helps. Basically have you doctor note that you need a leave of absence and that means NOT BEING IN CONTACT WITH WORK. The thing you can do, since it sounds like you can still manage a LITTLE bit, is to schedule your leave.

      So, say you take a 3 week leave. Schedule it for a week from tomorrow and all of this week send out the task assignments. When you do this, be explicit about the legal ramifications AND about the fact that you will not be available to track, remind or assist in any way shape or form on any of these tasks.

      When you on leave, turn on an autoresponder. And DO NOT take any calls or emails from work.

      1. Scared and Broke*

        Thank you for the advice! It makes sense to get a doctor’s note. I have an appoint with a new doctor on Feb 1, so I may be able to take a week working to create my “here’s what y’all need to do b/c I can’t” list and then get the doctor’s note for official illness leave. I think I can make it through that with my health not getting significantly worse.

        (This is a complaint unrelated to work but man do I wish it was easier to schedule MH appointments in a quick way. This one’s been on the books since December and February was the earliest they could do then. Gotta love being in a pandemic in a state with a dearth of qualified therapists)

  61. Junior Dev*

    Can someone help me find an article/open thread on this site about how to look older (for women in particular)? I remember seeing something about this from a woman who kept getting mistaken for a teenager but I can’t find it.

    1. Disco Janet*

      Oh gosh, I think there have been about a million, haha! There is a search bar towards the top; if you type in something like “how to look older” (with the quotation marks – otherwise you’ll get a bunch of loosely but not really related stuff), you might be able to find it. I just did that and a couple older ask the reader questions on this showed up.

    2. Kimmy Schmidt*

      There’s a couple that might be useful. “Is my acne keeping me from getting a job” and “Will looking like a teenager harm my job search”. Links to follow.

  62. Paris Geller*

    So asking a question for my partner: he currently works as a night auditor at a upscale hotel. He’s been there since the beginning of 2017. Of course, with covid the hospitality industry isn’t doing too well, and we’re especially hurting in our area because we’re a beach town. The hotel is doing OK right now because they’re housing a traveling nurse company, so he doesn’t think the hotel is in danger of either temporarily or permanently closing, but his (and everyone’s) hours have been cut and it’s been struggle. He’s also had issues with his job for awhile, so has decided to start casually job searching, but he’s not necessarily keen on staying in the hospitality industry. Any idea of what kind of roles he could look for? This is his relevant background:

    -BA in hospitality management
    -lots of customer service experience: car sales (hated it), mattress sales (liked it), multiple hotels ranging from mid-range to high end
    -some phone operator experience

    He doesn’t necessarily want to go back to sales or public-facing roles, however. He’s not opposed to work that’s more physical, but he does have some moderate medical issues that would prevent super physical jobs. For example, something like standing all shift or having to bend down/lift a lot is fine, but something like janitorial work or construction where there’s constant moving/climbing, etc. is out.

    1. Fluffernutter*

      I have a friend who was also in hospitality management in the hotel industry. She was furloughed and is now applying to jobs that are event coordinator types at companies. It’s probably a step down for her since a lot of the listings require corporate event planning experience instead of hotels but she is fine with getting a foot in the door to move out of the hotel industry.

    2. Ellen Ripley*

      Random, but what about something customer-facing in healthcare? Different organizations call them different things: receptionists, registrars (at hospitals), registration staff, front-desk staff, medical system call center… but he has a lot of transferrable skills and it should be a steady job and a place to start in an industry that’s not as decimated as hospitality.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      Leveraging his experience, he should take a look at whether there are jobs available in applicable industry associations, or perhaps in one of the government agencies that oversee the industry.

  63. small & unsure*

    I’m the team lead on a project to set up a new committee at work and I’m struggling to take the final steps because I think some of management won’t agree with my decisions (and I’m also doubting myself!)

    Here’s the situation: I worked with a team to set up this committee, including a high level manager (Carol), but their role was to “champion” the project and I was officially the project lead. (This is a special project that exists kind of outside of our standard team structures). The team has been involved throughout the process and I am at the stage of selecting the committee members from applications I have received (I asked Carol if she also wanted to be involved in the selection and she said there was no need).

    I spoke recently with our HR manager who has previously set up a number of committees to ask for her perspective on any resources that might be useful for the committee to have and we chatted about the selection process as well. She clearly disagreed with some of my decisions, saying she didn’t think some of the committee members would be “capable” of taking the role of committee chair if needed, and seemed to think I should select more members in management positions (for context there will be an assistant manager on the committee).

    I’m torn because I think this is mostly just that she is more concerned with hierarchy and power structure whereas I think staff are capable and will continue value to this committee despite not being management – but I also don’t want to the put the committee members in a situation where they are not being taken seriously by management because there is only one manager on the committee, if that makes sense? The context is that the organisation I work for can be quite bureaucratic – to the point where it impacts on the ability of staff to do their jobs.

    I thought about asking Carol for her input, but from previous experience I think she may just agree with the HR manager and ask me to change it, or nitpick something else that I don’t really feel matters. I don’t want to be forced to change my decision when technically I am the project team lead, even though Carol is senior to me.

    I’m unsure how much of this is just my anxiety (this is often an issue for me) and how much is me trying to be careful in a work environment that can be bureaucratic and sometimes punitive. Hoping this all makes sense. Thoughts?

    1. Annabeth Nass*

      I think the answer depends on the purpose of the committee. If you already have applications, what was sent out to generate the applications?

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Can you choose a couple of people as liaisons between the committee and management. I mean at some point you will need everyone’s buy-in including management. These liaison type people should be interested in seeing the project succeed, this means no Eeyores.
      Additionally, these folks might be able to help you craft a project that management will accept at the end. They are going to know how others at their level tend to think and view things. You could tailor your project accordingly.

  64. HappyFeet*

    My coworker, Betty, seems to misunderstand and ignore things I say when we chat.

    As some examples:
    -She tries to convince me to drink the office coffee while acknowledging that I always tell her I don’t drink coffee.
    -If someone in the office brings in food to share, or if she finds a new food she likes while shopping, she nags me to go try it/buy it even if I say I’m not interested.
    -When I tell her I don’t have time to talk right now because I’m busy with work, she keeps talking, and then acknowledges that I told her I’m busy when I repeat myself.
    -She wanted me to watch a specific TV drama series, but I told her I’d rather stick with the comedy series I’m currently watching. The next day she told me I said I couldn’t handle the violence in the show, but she said the show needs the violence, I can just fast forward through the violent parts, it’s worth watching despite the violence, and we have to get together one weekend to binge watch it.
    -I got a heavyweight cardigan to wear in the office in the winter, and might get a lighter one for the summer, but told her I don’t want to buy more than that for various reasons. She later told me I said I want cardigans in many different colors and she wants me to go shopping with her to get a big collection of them.

    It’s becoming increasingly confusing and annoying, and I feel guarded when I talk to her. Has anyone encountered a person like this before? How did you deal with them?

    1. irene adler*

      Information diet. For all topics. The more you tell her about your likes, and off- work doings, the more she’s going to reciprocate or comment upon. And misconstrue. So keep things limited to topics you do want to talk to her about. Work maybe?

      You won’t be much fun to talk to if you aren’t there/available to listen. When you indicate that you don’t have time to talk, do you couple this with an action? Talking about such things as, walking away, turning to your computer or desk (with your back to her), or initiating a conversation with someone else (ideally a work-related conversation).

    2. Web Crawler*

      I strongly dislike people like that. I’ve encountered many of them. Depending on the specific person, my strategies were*:

      1. Give her the same answer over and over. “No thanks, I don’t drink coffee” “why not?” “Because it’s coffee” “but you should drink this coffee” “I don’t drink coffee”. End the conversation when you can

      2. Change the subject. “Have you seen comedy show?” “Have you been shopping recently?” I find these people usually love talking about themselves

      3. Become equally frustrating by responding with nonsense. This is a terrible strategy for work, but I find it fun. Stuff like “no thanks, it’s coffee-flavored”, “I don’t shop”, “what’s a ?”

      * I say “were” because since I look like an adult man instead of a young woman, my “no thanks” is taken seriously

    3. Observer*

      Stop talking to her so much. You don’t have to explain yourself, you don’t have to answer every question she asks or statement she makes, and you don’t have to wait for her permission to turn away from a conversation.

      She wants you to try a new food / show / Clothing item? “thanks for mentioning it”. But… “Like I said thanks for mentioning it, but I have other plans” turn back to your work. Repeat no matter what argument she makes.

      She keeps talking to yo when you tell her you are busy? Turn back to your work, pic up the phone and / or walk away.

    4. RagingADHD*

      She’s not misunderstanding, she’s pushy and bored. Cultivate a tone that is very polite, but use extremely literal and direct words.

      “No thanks, I don’t want any coffee, and I don’t want to talk about it anymore. Excuse me, I have work to do.”

      “Betty, I don’t have time to talk, I have work to do. Please stop interrupting me.”

      “No, I don’t want to go shopping. We are not going shopping. Please stop interrupting me.”

      The key is to be very neutral and not angry. She won’t like it and will probably pout, but there’s really nothing else to do.

    5. Totally Minnie*

      It feels less like she’s misunderstanding what you say and more like it doesn’t really matter to her what you say. Looking at it through that lens might make it easier for you to formulate your responses to her. She doesn’t care why you don’t want to watch her show, she just wants you to watch her show. So since your reasons don’t matter to her, stop trying to give her better ones. Reasons are for reasonable people, and Betty’s not being reasonable. So stop trying to explain why you don’t want to do what you want. The next time it happens, just say you’re not interested and change the subject. “I’m not interested in that show. Hey, did you see the picture of Jane’s new kitten?” Or “I’m not interested in shopping for more cardigans. Do you have the data for that report?”

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed.
        I’d add it might be time to consider saying things such as, “Betty we already talked about that. ” OR “Betty you asked me that yesterday and I answered you.” OR, “Betty, please don’t put words in my mouth. I did not say that.”

    6. allathian*

      At a former job, my Betty had been annoying me for months. I don’t know why, but she latched on to me like I she thought I was a friend. Everything you said sounded oddly familiar.

      In the end, what stopped it was that I and another coworker, Jane, were talking about the annoying habits other people have at work. I didn’t name any names, but I mentioned some of the annoying things Betty had done recently. Jane said something like “Oh, that sounds like Betty, was it?” I just nodded and then I heard a sob from behind me. It was our Betty who had overheard us. I felt awful, because Jane had set a trap for Betty by starting that convo about annoying work habits. I had my back to our coffee machine, so I didn’t see Betty come and get her coffee. She left with it and went back to her desk. I also got up and said something like “Was that really necessary?” to Jane, who just shrugged in reply. I couldn’t really focus, and before I left for the day, I went to Betty’s desk and asked if I could have a word. Then I apologized for my part in the whole thing. She also apologized and said that she was trying to learn to read people’s reactions better, because she truly didn’t realize when she annoyed people but that she wasn’t doing it on purpose. Then we agreed that I should be even clearer when I really didn’t want to or have the time to talk to her, and that interrupting her was fine. I also told her that recommending a TV show you like is fine, but if someone says they’re not interested in that show, trying to persuade them to watch it is unlikely to change their mind.

      For as long as both of us stayed at that job, while she still occasionally annoyed me, she was at least willing to learn. Luckily things got better, but I admit that I was a bit annoyed with Jane for a while. After that incident, I had coffee with Betty more often than with Jane…

  65. UKbased*

    Hi,

    Can anyone recommend a CV support service in the UK, one they trust? I have a lot of disparate experience (and a lot of transferable skills) but I need help transforming my CV from blah to something that helps me sound competitve. I’m not looking for someone to just crank out a CV for me but someone who would work with me to help me write a great CV. Google has thrown up a lot of (slightly dodgy looking) options but I would really prefer a recommendation. No one I know personally has anyone they would recommend. I’d be greatful for any advice!

    2. Bobina*

      Im UK based and have used AAM advice to form the basis of my CV. But the other place I’ve recently found a good amount of advice is Reddit strangely enough. Theres a UKjobs subreddit and I’ve definitely seen people offer CV reviews there. UKcasual also started doing a monthly advice post and there are people there in recruiting who have said they are happy to look at CVs.

      The other one I’ve used as a guide even though its not my industry is the consulting subreddit. They have a wiki with a lot of tips and samples. They have people who will review your cv, but they are very. very blunt about telling you if it sucks (which they often do). What I did find helpful though was looking at all their critiques, and then very honestly looking at my CV with fresh eyes and using their advice to make each bullet much sharper and more focused.

  66. SpicySpice*

    Some years ago, the woman adjacent to me and up one level retired and my boss asked me if I wanted to apply for her position. After much thinking, I said no. She was putting in 12 hour days regularly and “only” 6-8 on the weekends. I value my free time. Sure enough, the woman who filled her place also puts in those kind of hours.
    Now Woman #2 is going on leave and I am covering for her. It will be 3 months. I’ve never covered for anyone like this before. Is the general expectation that I’m going to perform exactly like her while she’s out, or will I be basically doing enough to keep us afloat until she’s back? I can’t imagine doing my own job plus her entire job on top of that. I’d never sleep!

    1. Not Australian*

      You need to discuss this with your boss and get them to flag up the core components of Woman #2’s job, what is essential and what can be left until she gets back. Personally I’d go for three categories, VITAL, ROUTINE, and WOULD BE NICE … with the third category only receiving attention from you when you can really spare the time.

      1. SpicySpice*

        This is awesome advice, thank you! Luckily I have a few weeks to get organized, so I will be proactive and get on this.

    2. Annabeth Nass*

      Sounds like you need specific input from your boss. I doubt you would be expected to do the full job of someone on a higher level as well as your current job. If I were in that situation, I would ask my boss what specific duties need to be covered, and if there are any tasks that I normally do that could be transferred to someone else.

  67. johnsnowspumphandle*

    I have an employee that started in August in a database administrator/analyst job. She is struggling still, but I believe she has the skills and is lacking in confidence. I think I’ve figured out that she needs coaching to gain confidence in her interpretation of the facts and data, which is what the folks in my office are really looking for when they ask for numbers. Have you ever coached somebody this way? Or have resources that I can study to learn how to coach her?

    1. Just a PM*

      It sounds like your employee may not have much experience presenting her data or interpretation or she has been burned in the past so she second-guesses everything. 1:1’s or pairing her with a more senior colleague (kind of like a mentor-mentee dynamic) to learn on the job might be helpful.

      My boss liked to have me present my analysis to her first before I sent it out to anyone or did a briefing. She’d work through any sticky points with me, tell me what kind of questions I’d get from certain people, and help me plan an answer to address those topics. Is that something you could do for her?

  68. GoldenFrenchFry*

    Looking for those who have completed research-based graduate programs to advise on how much work towards old projects is reasonable after graduation. Or really anyone who has transitioned to a new role with unfinished projects at the old role!

    I will graduate from a STEM graduate program soon, and my PI has already asked me to keep working on publications after my official employment/studies are over. I enjoy editing and revising text, so I’d be happy to do that 1-3 hours a week (this would be unpaid), but PI was vague when I asked about the scope of the further work. History suggests that there would be quite a bit more than simple editing/revising.

    My school’s policy is that extra work is allowed, but completely voluntary and uncompensated. I would prefer to focus on my new career (and enjoy the few days’ break in between school and my new job starting), but am afraid of potential bridge-burning.

    How much work did you do towards your graduate project after graduation, if any, and how did you go about setting these boundaries with your mentor?

    1. The New Wanderer*

      I published two journal articles and wrote several conference talks based off my dissertation after I left grad school and started my career-job. It took nearly two years, all told, putting in hours after work/on weekends, between writing/iterating on the initial drafts and then managing revisions (there were months-long breaks between submission and revisions). None of it was compensated but I never had that expectation.

      My advisor was very active in supporting this work, but it was clear that I would do the bulk of the work in writing and managing the submissions. His deal with students was always that we should get credit for the work we do/did and publishing/presenting the work as first author was the primary avenue for that. If the student chose not to author the work then my advisor would write it up as first author, putting the student as second author.

      I know plenty of students who chose not to publish because they were not interested in continuing to work after the degree and it really didn’t benefit them career-wise. I don’t think it burned any bridges – a reasonable advisor will understand that your current work demands should come first (and frankly that not everyone wants to keep revisiting grad school work for a year or longer after finishing!). OTOH, I have worked with my advisor several times in the years since graduating and we continue to have a good working relationship, so I’m glad I invested the time.

    2. another_scientist*

      I really depends on your new career. These kinds of unpaid labor are expected because of the presumed benefit that you’d be getting yourself. An extra publication on your CV can be good.
      Are you staying in an academic research setting? If yes, it’s much more important to keep the bridge to your grad advisor intact. If you pursue a research career, you will typically always come back to your grad advisor (among others) for recommendations for future jobs and promotions. Most people therefore tolerate a lot of bad-boss-behaviors from advisers.
      As The New Wanderer points out, anything you finish up unpaid, you should get full credit for. In a lot of fields that means first authorship, but it can vary.
      Unpaid work should also be limited to finishing up/writing up research that was done in grad school. Only invest effort in further work/further collaboration with the old advisor, if it fits into your new research direction, and if your new boss supports it, at which point it’s part of your new job and no longer unpaid.
      Once you have a job outside of academic research, there is less of an expectation that you will still do unpaid academic labor. Soon, your job accomplishments and reference from your first job out of grad school will outweigh what came before.

    3. Unfettered scientist*

      Depending on the field this can be pretty common. Are you going for an academic position? If so, it’s going to be more important to do the extra work and squeeze as many papers out of your graduate work as possible. Also critical to keep on your PIs good side if you’re going to rely on them for academic rec letters. But if you’re not, then personally I would finish up the work related to your degree but then mostly leave the ball in your PIs court once you have a draft. These things can take a lot longer than you might expect.

  69. Laura H.*

    So I have a weird question.

    I’m a seasonal employee at a retail store and I caught Covid at the tail end of my season. My store management was helpful and wished me well. (The corporate HR was as well, but this question is more for showing appreciation to my local store that I work for seasonally.)

    I understand the way to say thank you in the work context for something like that is keep working well, but I won’t get that opportunity till the next season (hopefully late April or early May start time). I’ll get called for the next season.

    I don’t have a need or strong want for a new product at the moment. I do have some business to do as a customer- it’s care for product I already own as well as picking up an item before I was ill. I’ve already verbally thanked the folks who work with me who checked in on me during my illness.

    Is there something that wouldn’t be intrusive, but be more immediate in addition to the working hard when I have the next opportunity that would serve as an added “Thank you for helping me not feel guilty about catching this crud at the tail end of the busy holiday season.”?

    1. Who moved my cheese?*

      Say a thoughtful thank you! Verbally or a greeting card. “Thank you for supporting me and (specific stuff they did), especially during such a busy time!”

    2. pancakes*

      You can send a card if you like, but I don’t think it’s necessary. What you’ve described on their part is what I consider baseline decency. Wishing a coworker well when they’re sick isn’t going above and beyond. If you do send something, I would advise not mentioning feeling guilty or potentially feeling guilty at all. It’s a bit too personal for a work context, and doesn’t really have anything to do with wishing a coworker well when they’re sick.

  70. Witch*

    Okay! It’s 2021 and I need a career change. I’m in public relations right now, but I realize I very much dislike the amount of constant pressure I’m under. The things I do like about it; Helping people find information and writing.

    I know I need a career change. I was considering human resources. I’m comfortable with understanding and explaining complex processes and topics. (I work in the auto industry with some really technical clients) And from the outside it seems like HR is focused on helping people find employment information. I’m particularly interested in the employee relations aspect of this work.

    Do you think a background in communications would translate well? How do I approach the hurdle of lacking HR-specific expertise? (for ref I’ve already addressed this in my cover letter)

    I was also considering a job in library sciences but I understand the industry is really really tough to get into. What are some possible jobs for a communicator who enjoys talking with people that can grow into a full-time career?

    1. anastaziad*

      What about training jobs that may or may not be HR related. If you are good with public speaking, can put together a presentation, etc. This would more directly use communication skills. I supposed some of this type of work would fall under employee relations—consider how much you want to be writing manuals vs working with people, and read lots of job descriptions to get a better idea of what seems like a good fit. You should be able to translate your skills to one of these areas.

      1. anastaziad*

        Also, if you are good at explaining complex topics, a niche area might be developing and presenting seminars related to retirement plans to the plan participants. For example, there are several large firms that do a lot of work for companies with pension plans, or for governmental entities with pension. Often there may be changes to the plans, or one-time opportunities to make elections, etc, that requires a high level of communication. Pre COVID, that might include in person workshops, but now may be online interactive webinars, etc.

        1. Witch*

          Oh!! That’s a really good idea. One of my former co-workers got a position with the UAW explaining insurance benefits to retirees. I should reach out to her!

        2. Lyudie*

          Training is a good suggestion, try looking at human resources development positions. Technical writing or other types of writing positions might suit you too.

    2. HB*

      If you do decide to go for library sciences, it can be as simple as getting your foot in the door. And if you decide to get your MLS, libraries tend to like hiring from their established pool of employees when a librarian retires or leaves.

      It’s not the easiest job to get into, but I can say that prior to COVID, my job satisfaction and sense of purpose was very high. This despite having awful experiences with admin. COVID has thrown a huge wrench into things, though, and it’s going to be a while before libraries figure out their standings again. I can tell you one thing, though: keep an eye out for libraries that DON’T force their staff to work on-site and stay open during a pandemic. Those of us who are have realized our governing bodies think of library workers as furniture and potential casualties instead of human beings with lives, families, and a healthy fear of getting sick and/or dying.

    3. NancyDrew*

      What about switching from PR (external comms) to Internal Comms or corporate Social Media? I work in IC and Social, and in all the companies I’ve worked at, those three functions ladder up in the same department. Or marketing or SEO writing?

      (You couldn’t pay me a billion dollars to go to HR, but that’s because my current HR is horrific.)

      1. Witch*

        I was also thinking on more internal comms. I really like writing, and have some light experience from an agency perspective drafting internal-facing newsletters and such. So I got a little taste but never a big bite.

  71. JAR*

    Does anyone have any advice about starting a career in marketing? I previously worked in administration, but haven’t worked outside the home in ten years.

    1. Witch*

      What sort of marketing? Can you write well? Are you familiar with coding and web design? Do you know SEO optimization? A strong ability to write backed by an understanding about how digital marketing works will help. Hubspot has some really good free courses for brushing up / learning about digital marketing basics: https://www.hubspot.com/resources/courses

      1. JAR*

        I’ve done a bit of all of them, which is why I think marketing would be a good fit. I’ve been a self-employed writer (mainly fiction) and marketed my books, built and maintained a couple of websites, run a blog, volunteered as a social media manager.

        I’m currently doing the Google Digital Garage digital marketing course. It’s mostly revision, but it seemed a reasonable place to start.

    2. NancyDrew*

      Social media marketing? SEO marketing? General brand marketing? Lots to choose from. Also, is there a particular industry you want to work in? And, what’s your background?

        1. JAR*

          Sort of, though I’m in the UK and we don’t really use that title. I’ve been a PA and done team support, but my last job I was more independent, probably more like an EA.

      2. JAR*

        I suppose my ideal industry would be non-profit. Around where I live all the marketing positions I’ve seen have been pretty generalist. I’d have to travel further to a major city to get anything specialist, and that’s not something I want to do right now. I’d be looking at starting as a general Marketing Assistant, basically wherever local had an opening.

  72. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

    A coworker had a mild COVID case; the rest of us all tested negative, and we closed for a week after we found out (which was a week after she’d last been in). Monday we’re reopening and I just wish they’d use this opportunity to let us not come in as much, or have shorter hours, or something. My boss probably would if she could (she’d already been staggering our schedules a little bit), but there’s a lot of pressure from on high for the library to be open full time.
    This isn’t really a request for advice, just a little vent. But I am thinking to ask if I can WFH one day a week, to lessen the amount of time I’m on public transport.

    1. WellRed*

      I’m offering support, this seems like a good time to ask for whatever makes the most sense (personally, from a COVID exposure viewpoint, WFH one day a week makes more sense). Our public libraries have been closed to the public since March. Pick up only (at a window).

    2. Amelia Shepherd*

      i’m a librarian too and i feel your pain. i get that libraries are important to the community, and that people use them for more than just books. but when administration opens us up as soon as they can, that makes me feel like i’m second to patrons. especially when admin is still working from home. when patrons come in and are like “i’m so happy you’re open!” like, uh, what about staff who are risking their lives so you can have your books? do we not matter?

  73. youindangergirl*

    My boss admits and brags about being a “bully”. They even gave her the nickname of someone that has a reputation for being tough. (ie: Think Anna Wintour or someone similar.) This is bad, right? She loads us up with work and seems to get pleasure out of it. The Assistant Manager raised his voice at me, WITH my boss sitting next to him and she just smiled. She excuses any bad behavior as “hazing” or “we’re joking”.

    I’m trying to get out, but I need some voices of reason here because I have another part of me saying that it’s me or my fault or whatever. (I’ve been in so many toxic jobs that I don’t know right from wrong, left from right anymore. Plus I need a paycheck, so I can’t up and leave UNTIL I find something else.)

    Thank you in advance for any help or thoughts or advice.

    1. Paris Geller*

      It is NOT your fault! Nothing you can do will change how a bully is going to act. And she’s proud of it! Get out as soon as you can!

    2. Web Crawler*

      You’re not the problem here, your boss is. You’re not the one hazing or being proud of being a bully. I know our culture sometimes pretends otherwise, but that’s not okay. (Also wtf is wrong with her that she sees “hazing” as a good thing?)

      And some additional truths. You’re not weak for getting hurt and your boss isn’t strong for hurting you. You’re in a bad situation, but that’s the situation, not you. You’re not even in a position of power here, so things are extra not your fault. And when you leave, you’ll find that this specific workplace will continue being awful without you there.

    3. Captain Marvel*

      Woah. She’s happy about being a bully? That’s definitely not something to be proud of, even if you’re joking.
      And people shouldn’t be raising their voice at you.

      And hazing! Even the frats at my university weren’t allowed to do that. I’m absolutely floored that she would think any form of hazing would be okay in a workplace.

    5. RagingADHD*

      Your boss and the assistant manager are awful and you should get out as soon as you can. It’s not your fault and nobody deserves to be yelled at.

      “Hazing” is just a euphemism for institutionally sanctioned cruelty. It’s not benign, and it’s not funny. Never was.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. And your boss can’t manage so she is defaulting to bullying instead. Real leaders have no need to bully people.

    7. Malika*

      You are not insane, and you can remind yourself daily that you are preventing yourself from normalizing and accepting your situation by consistently job hunting. Proud of you, internet stranger. Keep up the good work.

  74. Meg*

    I’m looking for tips on how to approach a review after a not great year that followed an amazing year that was unrecognized. In an attempt to keep this succinct, my boss (VP of my department) left in early 2019. They didn’t replace her for a year, and essentially disbanded our department. 2019 was really rough and demoralizing, but I think I had a great year keeping my department remnants afloat, and took on an entire body of work that shouldn’t have been my job. I regret not advocating for myself at the time, but that ship has sailed.

    I came into 2020 burned out from the dumpster fire of 2019 and then…..2020. My new boss started in March, and she’s been great. On the whole I don’t think I had a great year, and she and I touched on that briefly in my mid-year review. In addition to coming in with burnout and the state of the world, I had several deaths in my family in a short time, and ended a 2 year relationship. So I know I didn’t have a great year, but I did get a major project finished. I complete my written review, but I’m looking for tips on framing the actual review conversation with my boss. I want to talk about what I need to do to get promoted/a raise and would like to be able to reference my great 2019 review as well. I also don’t want to look oblivious to the fact that 2020 was not my best year (was it anyone’s?)

    1. Not So NewReader*

      “Boss, the last two years have been rocky. In 2019, my then boss left and our department was disbanded. I did everything I could think of to keep things running, including A, B and C. I’d like to show you a copy of my review from that year.

      Then unbelievably came Covid. On top of the Covid, I had several personal losses and 2020 brought new levels of havoc but I pushed on, trying to put out as many fires as possible. Through it all, I see that I am doing the job plus increasing my abilities and becoming of more value to the company. I would like to formalize this path. I am interested in discussing what else I would need to do to position myself better for any future promotions.”

  75. ahhh*

    Hi everyone! I want to preface my post with a few things. First, I am asking my question in order to respect the artist. Secondly I know I am a bit “behind the times”. Thirdly, I am purposely keeping things a bit general. This is a bit of a debate between some artistic friends and running a business.

    I’ve always wanted to start a business based on an artistic/ creative hobby I have. I know realistically this is a one in a million shot, but selling on places like Etsy, Ebay, and working with local musicians and community theater actors have made me feel accomplished in my side business.

    I recently joined pinterest to get ideas for this side business. Yes I know should have done it ages ago. I like pinterst for this business and other hobby reasons but I feel like it has sucked me into a vortex! I actually stepped away from pinterest because I was so overwhelmed.

    Before being aware of some ins and outs of how pinterest works (like pinning/ saving etc) I found some great templates and inspiration. I took screenshots of ideas that I should have pinned (is that the right word?).

    Now whenever I use something created by another person I always try to get permission especially since I like to sell my finished product.

    There are a few ideas I would like to use in the future in one of my projects. Problem is I can’t find the originator of the post to track down who created the template. My screenshot only covered the template I have no problem waiting until I find this again in my search.

    Here’s what rubs me the wrong way…the debate. A friend of mine who works in my side business in a more professional matter. They work in a general overview; not in the small details related to the core of my side business. They said if someone posts on pinterst that all is fair game unless otherwise stated or if no precautions were taken (like watermarking or stating in the description), who would know if you were inspired by something etc. My theory is if something is copyrighted or even just created by someone else it should be mandatory to ask in order to make a profit off of it.

    These ideas are something someone could in theory figure out on their own. While it would never be exact one could create something extremely similar on their own. For my side business I hate with a passion creating these templates, hence I am looking for to purchase from someone who has created them.

    What’s everyone else’s opinion to this discussion?

    1. Witch*

      Yeah a creative person who’s known to be a plagiarist is going to have a tough time making her business work. It’s best to at least get permission on a design (even if you plan to sort of change it up). Or, of course, pay them for usage of the template.

    2. Littorally*

      You’re gonna want to be really careful with Pinterest for this stuff. In my experience, it’s vanishingly rare for the person who posted an artistic pin to actually be the creator of that piece of art — art theft is rampant on that site, and a lot of artists I’m friends with or who are in my general circle have found their pieces posted there without their permission.

      When you say your “theory” is that if something is copyrighted, it “should” be mandatory to ask permission in order to make a profit — that’s not your theory, that’s the law! And the fact that you’ve phrased it that way is already setting off alarm bells in my head.

      Frankly, treat anything you see on Pinterest as copyrighted and posted without permission unless you have explicit information to the contrary.

      1. ahhh*

        My wording is not correct. I have always always always asked permission. I meant theory in the sense that I was arguing with my friend who had a different opinion.

    3. em*

      Most pins aren’t “posted” to Pinterest by the person who created them, so no, saying anything on Pinterest is fair game would be like saying anything that appears in a Google search is fair game!

      Most templates I’ve seen online have a blurb somewhere about licensing or personal vs professional use. While it’s fine to take inspiration from other people’s art without permission you definitely need to properly pay/credit/etc for intellectual property you’re using directly.

      1. ahhh*

        I totally agree. For some reason some of the posts I’ve seen don’t have the blurb. I wrote this post because I was shocked at my friend’s interpretation for things.

        1. em*

          Yeah, it sounds like maybe your friend doesn’t understand Pinterest and is thinking it’s more like a blog/marketing site for artists or something.

          1. ahhh*

            My friend’s professional position in this field is getting the final product/ looking at things from top of the umbrella. While I’m sure they have a general knowledge of how the details are legally done by definition, they’re main focus is way down past the finish line. In their mind the product that they receive has dotted i’s and t’s crossed. While they understand pinterest and similar, they may look at it as a reliable source to get info not realizing (again as an overall view) that it is difficult to track down to get permission – the person on pinterst may not be the originator so it’s not as simple as sending an email.

            1. ahhh*

              I guess another way to describe it, my friend thinks it is fair game as in the person who posted it has already done the research and gotten permission. I’m not saying this for them to sound naive. In their personal life they are very cautious about things like this. I just think professionally they are in the mindset that when things get to their level the grunt work is finished completed and signed off on

    4. ThatGirl*

      At my last company I sometimes tried to track down old products for people, and I’d do a lot of google searching. Sometimes I would find pictures on Pinterest, but my absolute biggest pet peeve is that it’s VERY hard to find the source someone pinned something from, and people don’t credit things. So I’d end up in a dead end. I don’t use Pinterest personally but I hate it anyway. :)

      1. ahhh*

        Truthfully I am finding Pinterest a bit overwhelming. While I did get a few great ideas for inspiration I don’t think it’s a source I will be using much as I thought in the future. I truly want to get permission. I always ask.
        To clarify I am not going to use something if I can’t get permission from the original artist. I am finding it very challenging tracking down the source. Again I like Pinterest but I feel like it would be very easy to steal someone’s work on it. Now my cooking experiments (not anyway related to my side business) that’s a positive story for Pinterest, but for my career goal, I don’t think this avenue will work.

        1. pancakes*

          Maybe I missed something, but I don’t understand why you were taking screenshots of images you found on Pinterest rather than simply pinning them to your own account. Saving them as screenshots is a great way to lose track of where they originated, which doesn’t seem to be your objective.

        2. DistinctiveGait*

          As a potentially helpful sidenote: To find the original source in some cases, you could upload your screenshot to something like tineye dot com which reverse image searches—if the screenshot is close enough to the real thing you can see where the template was first posted online and perhaps find the creator that way. I’ve found Tineye works better than google reverse image search.

      2. pancakes*

        It sounds like you might benefit from doing an image search in those instances, to track down where the image first appeared. Try Tineye or Google Reverse Image Search.

    5. Glitsy Gus*

      My previous life was in an artistic industry and this does come up a lot. When you are doing something creative you will always be influenced and take inspiration and ideas from elsewhere, so as a general concept that isn’t a problem. The question is always, “where’s the line between inspiration and flat out copying?”

      It’s hard to know from your description here, but the general rule I learned in school and that is the general rule I also encountered int he industry is that if you used someone else’s template or whatever and changed at least three things about it, it is now yours. For example, if you use a program to turn someone’s photo into a crosstitch pattern, that is copying. If you see a photo that you like, but hmm, I think that bee should be a butterfly, and I want the flowers pink instead of red, and I’m going to crop out that tree in the corner; at that point yeah, you used the photo for inspiration, and you may still be keeping the basic composition and such, but it’s really a different thing at this point and it’s fair to call it your own. There will always be argument as to how big the three changes need to be, is three enough or should it be four, etc, but it’s a good starting point to figure out if you really do need to track down the creator for permission to use their work, or were you inspired by what they created, but then turned it into your own thing.

      If you really are using their work and not changing it enough to really be your own thing, get permission. Pinterest is NOT a free-for-all, especially since the artists can’t control who pins their stuff. Even if that person may not legally have copyright protection ethically you shouldn’t use other people’s whole-cloth work without permission.

      1. ahhh*

        I totally agree with what you are saying. Regardless of how much I alter something I always ask permission. There is too much gray area. Given that this is a side business for me that one day I hope I can run as a successful business I want all my ducks in a row. I hate making templates so if someone else does, I’m more than happy to pay for their service…. I’m finding it hard though to touch base with the originator. I don’t use something until I have that permission. I was just amazing having this conversation with my friend, and a few others who joined in, how many were willing to take a template because it was just posted.

        1. pancakes*

          I don’t think it would hurt to have a look at Copyright dot gov to familiarize yourself with basic principles. The University of California’s Berkeley Library also has a user-friendly page titled “Copyright Basics & Fair Use,” with links to additional resources.

    6. RagingADHD*

      Copyright is automatic. Every creator inherently owns the copyright to their work unless they deliberately license it for creative commons use. No registration, watermarking, or other action is needed to “claim” the copyright. That right exists from the moment of creation.

      Posting something for public view does not cancel copyright, any more than hanging a painting in a gallery or lending a book from a library cancels the creators’ copyright. Copyright registration just creates a paper trail so the creator can prove ownership and the date, to make it easier to enforce their rights later on.

      Now, in the Internet age it’s possible for people to rip off creators and get away with it for a long time. And with shares and screenshots, the chain of ownership can be hard to trace. The fact that those creators can’t always enforce their rights doesn’t make that any less shady or exploitive.

      HOWEVER – ideas are not copyrightable, just the specific expression of those ideas. If you create something that was inspired by another artist’s work but doesn’t directly use their work, that’s not stealing. The analogy would be if you saw a painting of a beautiful view, went to the same place, and then painted the same view.

      Or if two different authors wrote different adaptations of the same fairy tale.

      Or if you found a great recipe, cooked it yourself with some tweaks, and then re-wrote it according to your own version. It would be best practice to acknowledge the source of your inspiration, but you haven’t done anything wrong.

      So if you can’t contact the originator, is there a way you can create your own “recipe?”

  76. Well, this sucks!*

    I work as director of design in a in-house marketing and communications team. Yesterday my boss told me that she doesn’t think it makes sense for our employer to keep any creatives (ME) on staff and instead switch to using contracted designers only.

    I brought up all the work I do that would be difficult to contract out, meaning SOMEONE on the team will have to do it (not to mention that I oversee our visual branding company-wide and that without someone in charge of that, each contract designer is going to go their own direction…), but it’s feeling like this is a done deal. I have a few months until the switch is supposed to happen.

    What are the rules/laws about switching from employee to contractor. And how do I handle using up all my PTO (10 WEEKS)? What should I try to negotiate for? I’m really feeling like I’m floundering. I’ve worked here for 10 years and really brought the company up a level with regard to our branding and design.

    1. OneTwoThree*

      What type of PTO do you have? If it is vacation time, I’m fairly certain that your employer is legally required to pay you for that time.

      I’m not quite sure from your comments, but are you expecting to become a contractor for this company? If so, when you are working on your new rate make sure you factor in extra costs that your employer were previously covering – taxes, insurance, vacation time, etc. Don’t just use what ever you are currently being paid.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Laws about paying out PTO vary by state, though a lot of companies (not all) do it as a matter of course.

      2. PollyQ*

        Having to pay out vacation time varies by state in the US. Some require it, some don’t.

        Bigger question is turning a regular employee into a contractor. That is very often not legal, and companies like Microsoft have gotten into trouble for it. Does your firm have a legal department, or even HR? If so, you might want to use Alison’s standard method of saying, “Gosh, have you run this by legal/HR? We could get in trouble if we don’t do this the right way.”

    2. Person from the Resume*

      Ummmm … are they assuming you will agree to work for them as an independent contractor? Are you assuming that they plan to you hire you as their only independent contractor and with enough pay to to make it worth your while to become a contractor?

      I think you need to start job hunting now unless you have a great desire to be a contractor (which has frankly always sounded terrible to me). And start taking day off to job hunt and enjoy yourself while you still have a pay check coming in.

      But you have a point. If you just do the same thing you did before including coming into the office during normal office hours, that’s illegal. If they drop the management/brand supervision you used to do and just hire someone for each creative project, then that’s probably legal.

    3. Well, this sucks!*

      My boss has said she would keep me as one of her contract designers. Our office has another contract designer we use regularly (I manage which projects they work on and provide feedback before it’s sent on to the office that requested the work). It sounds like they would find a few more designers to round out their “stable.” (eyeroll)

      We do have an HR and I’ll be emailing them today. Our policy seems to be that we pay out 4 weeks of vacation upon someone leaving, but I’ve heard that people who have been laid off have negotiated more. I’ve got a total of 3 personal days, 8 weeks of vacation and 1.5 weeks of sick leave. I don’t even know what to call what is happening to me. It’s not voluntary on my part, but my friend in HR doesn’t think this rises to the level of a layoff where they would negotiate with me.

      Fortunately I know what I would need to charge as a contractor to make up for loosing my benefits, the company paying taxes for me, etc. I was already starting my job search, so this has kicked it into high gear. It will suck to lose my equipment. I don’t have a home computer and my partner uses his computer for his business, so I can’t rely on having access to it whenever I need it. Hopefully I can find a new full-time job. I’ve freelanced before and it’s not something I really want to do long term.

      I’ll be asking HR about the legality of becoming a contractor. Our fiscal year runs from July-June, so they may legally be able to keep me full-time until the end of June and then switch me to being on a contract basis.

      1. Bobina*

        Whatever vacation isnt paid out, make sure you use it! Do not let them get away with you working for free. I would use whatever days I have to either relax and take a mental break from a truly ridiculous company, or job hunt because why the hell not. Use it to get your portfolio in good shape, resume review etc.

        Re: computer, at least while you’re job hunting, I’d try and make sure you have one. Even if its just a cheap chromebook or a tablet with keyboard extension, its a good thing to have.

      2. Person from the Resume*

        It is a layoff. They are replacing a full time employee with a contractor. You aren’t being fired; your position is being eliminated, but that doesn’t mean they have to give you severance especially if in their mind they plan to continue to employ you as a contractor.

        Start taking advantage of all your vacation time.

      3. Can Can Cannot*

        Just to be clear, the rate you charge as a contractor isn’t simply your current hourly rate plus something to cover your benefits. Your new rate needs to factor in the uncertainty of getting work and getting paid, the benefits, the time required to find new/more contract work, etc. A good rule of thumb is to use 3x your current hourly rate. If you can get a solid commitment (in writing) for a longish period of time (12 months+), you might take a lower rate, maybe closer to 2x or 2.5x.

        Also, the fact that you don’t have a home computer isn’t a big deal. You can purchase a computer and factor that into your hourly rate. Or you can have your former employer provide a computer while you are a contractor — there’s no reason why a contractor cannot use a company issued computer.

      4. mreasy*

        If they’re changing you from a full employee to a contractor surely that would be constructive dismissal since your employment terms are changing so much? I bet unemployment would see it that way. I don’t understand how they can not be considering this a layoff! Also make your contract rate twice your salary.

    4. Ali G*

      Are you in the US? It’s illegal to eliminate a salary position and reclass it as a contractor. At a minimum they need to wait 6 months to fill a contractor for it. Even if they did that, you could still make a big stink about it and they would have to prove how it is different than your current position and not qualify as a salaried position.

      1. Well, this sucks!*

        Yes, I’m in the US. I’m sure my boss doesn’t know the laws, but she said she had talked to HR about it already… I’ll def. include the issue in my email to HR.

  77. ReadyNPC3*

    How does one parse out work culture more effectively? About two years ago I made the transition into office work and the first place I landed was atrocious in work culture (think frat house with slimey sales pressure). After a two month stint, I was able to swap to a different office that seemed more work/life balance focused and wanted someone to grow with the business. Over the first year, I slow found that I don’t quite fit in yet again. I understand this maybe a me problem but I’m wondering how everyone screens employers for fit when interviewing?

    1. RagingADHD*

      So if I am reading your timeline correctly, this is two jobs over the course of about 14 months? That’s not a “you” problem, it’s just a learning curve. I’d also say that “slimey sales pressure” isn’t just about fitting in – you had a fundamental conflict with the company’s values. That’s important.

      Do you have a similar values conflict at the new job, or is it more about fitting in with your team? Can you identify what specifically you feel is off kilter?

      I can’t think of a job where I ever felt that I “fit in” on a personal level — that my coworkers would become close friends, or anything like that. I feel that a job is a good culture fit if my contributions are valued and I’m treated with respect. That includes:

      1) I respect the work they do and their values (as practiced, not just on paper).
      2) Communication is clear and management is fair.
      3) The team dynamics allow me to do good work and address problems or frustrations effectively.
      4) My coworkers are pleasant, helpful, friendly, and also have their primary social/emotional connections outside the office.

      I screen for this by doing research about their mission and values – both what they say and what reviews from current and past employees say (like on Glassdoor). I ask about things like management style and teamwork – but I also play close attention to the messages they send and the questions they ask.

      Finally, I pay attention to the people I meet in the interview process, and to my gut reaction when talking to them.

      Part of knowing what to look for in culture fit is knowing what type of culture you’re looking for. That comes with experience.

  78. Filosofickle*

    AAM talks a lot about Gumption™ tactics, and how they work just often enough to reinforce the advice to pull stunts to get attention. Saw a crazy one on LinkedIn — an applicant sent a Venmo request to the hiring manager for 50K with the job title in the description field. The recipient was confused at first but then thought it was brilliant and is giving him an interview. That is not the reaction I’d have had. :/

    What’s the craziest one you’ve seen?

    1. Captain Marvel*

      Oh my god. I haven’t seen any, but I just had to say that is wild.

      It’s people like him and that guy who held up his Venmo account at a televised football game (and got people to send him money) that make me think I’m using Venmo wrong. Though I have to say that I’m not going to be sending any requests to hiring managers ever; I can’t even imagine the confidence in that applicant.

    2. Filosofickle*

      It’s worth noting this a job at an ad agency, where extreme self-marketing is more likely to be a plus. Still!

  79. Teacher or Keymaster? - The story of how my principal broke into my house*

    I was asked to post this in the “teacher dressing like me” thread. It appeared last October in a thread here on AAM.

    A long time ago, in a state far, far away…one with no unions and in a very rural, one high school district….

    I worked as a teacher in a building and district that had been amazing until Principal Dumbass was hired. Principal Dumbass did everything he could to undermine the teachers, and even some of the parents. No one knew what his end game was, which made all of his actions all the more weird.

    One of my (unpaid) but expected duties was to manage the keys to the auditorium. I’m not sure how this became part of my job, as I don’t teach anything that would be held in a theater, but Principal Dumbass assigned this task to me.

    So, when a teacher needed to use the auditorium, or it was rented out by Principal Dumbass to some local community group, they would set up a time to come get the keys to place from me. Why a front office staff member was not a better choice, I do not, to this day, 15 years later, know…but Principal Dumbass rarely made any sense anyway.

    One lovely spring Friday, I received an email from Principal Dumbass to come to his office before I left for the day. He told me to leave him the keys to the auditorium, because he had plans to use it over the weekend. There was nothing on the calendar, but no worries, I handed over the keys to his secretary because he had already left. (Despite telling me to come to his office after the last class…)

    Saturday morning, I was out and away from any means of communication, when the alarm company called my husband’s cell phone while he was at work. He told the alarm company it must be real and rushed home to see what was going on. When he got there, Principal Dumbass was sitting in handcuffs in the back of the cruiser, after attempting to break into the house.

    Since my husband didn’t know Principal Dumbass too well. He told the cops that he knew the man by name, but had no idea what he was doing at the house. Principal Dumbass stated that he needed the auditorium keys for his daughter’s dance recital that was supposed to take place in three hours and that I had forgotten to give them to him and they weren’t in his office, so he had come to get them.

    Cops agreed to take Principal Dumbass into custody because he did actually break into the house, even though nothing was missing. On Monday, the superintendent came to my room with flowers and a check for the window that Principal Dumbass broke attempting to break into my house.

    I looked at the superintendent and said, “The keys he was looking for are with his secretary.”

    Superintendent replied, “He doesn’t need keys any more. I just took his. That was the final straw.”

    …and that’s how my principal got fired over a weekend.

    2. Imaginary Number*

      My guess is that was the whole reason he gave them to you and not his secretary. I bet he was “renting” it out and the secretary would have been able to figure that out by who was coming to get the keys.

      1. Teacher or Keymaster?*

        The reason there was nothing on the calendar is because he didn’t make his daughter’s group pay or sign the liability forms. This was all a real shady deal.

        (The auditorium rental was a bit of a side hustle for the school since it was the largest gathering area around. Various groups would rent it for talent shows, pageants, concerts, etc.)

        I wasn’t aware of the implications until after he was arrested. My young, naive self simply assumed he needed the keys for his own use for an assembly on Monday or something, which may not have been put on the calendar.

    4. Portabella*

      I would like to hear more of Principal Dumbass and his nonsensical ways, if you don’t mind sharing! It’s entertaining. :)

    5. Bobina*

      Wooooow.

      At least he got fired though! After too long reading this blog I feel like an equally plausible ending would have been for him to show up to the school on Monday and fire *you* for “getting him arrested!”

      1. tangerineRose*

        While reading this, I was worried about that, too. Glad he was the one who got fired. He sounds absolutely awful, and to break into your house!

  80. ToCountorNotToCount*

    Hi I’m mostly a lurker. I have a question for the accountants in the room. I want to go back to college. I was 3/4 of the way through a degree in English 20 years ago when I had to drop out. I will be starting from scratch if I go back. I do have a real life accountant I will be contacting but I would like a broader perspective. Is accounting a boys club or are women pretty common in the field? Are acct. internships typically paid or unpaid? Is memorizing the tax code a “well everyone does it” thing or more of a speciality subject? Masters degree or undergrad with CPA license? What do you hate the most? Is there room for creative problem solving? Can you fill in the sentence “If you like……you will probably like being an accountant.”

    Any input you guys might have is very welcome! If there are any questions you wished you had thought about before making your choice please fill me in. Thank you so much. Oh, I do enjoy doing elaborate math based sudokus and those grid logic problems. My husband thinks this means I’d love accounting but he’s a creative and previous jobs have led me to believe these are in no way applicable to accounting but I’ve been wrong before.

    1. Lifelong student*

      CPA here- Women are pretty common in the field although you will still find that most managers, partners, etc are men. Not sure about the internships- they can be either. You don’t have to memorize the tax code- except as much as is need to pass the CPA exam. Many accountants do no tax work (although that is my thing!) The license is the most important thing- not the actual degree. Check the requirements to be licensed in your state. Lots of room for creativity.
      When I taught accounting at a university, I told my students that I will make mistakes in arithmetic- accounting is about logic more than math!
      I became a CPA late in life- got my BS at age 47. It was easier for me as an adult student than it can often be for traditional students.

      1. ToCountorNotToCount*

        Thank you for replying. I’ll be 42 if I start back next fall and part of me is definitely feeling…..weird? about that. I love order and logic. I used to work in the financial controls department of a company and really enjoyed the nature of the work. As an outsider the work looks fun and I like the stability.

        1. Lifelong student*

          Another point- join your state and local CPA associations. Student memberships are often free and there are personal benefits to joining. Probably not something allowed on the forum- but if there were a way to do so, I would be happy to have you contact me privately.

          2. ToCountorNotToCount*

            I’m in Nevada and have bookmarked several professional organizations already. Scholarships and grants are going to be very important after the last year. If you do anything on disqus I am Sassafras Hall. It’s attached to a garbage FB that I used for mobile games so please don’t judge lol.

    2. Five after Midnight*

      If you’re into elaborate sudokus, check out CrackingTheCryptic on YT; I found it a few months ago and I’m completely addicted.
      As for the accounting, I fully agree with Lifelong (I’m also a CPA). If you like creativity, logic, and problem solving, you may want to consider doing business or financial analysis instead of pure accounting. I took a non-linear, non-standard path into licensure and ended up with a grad degree because I needed accounting credits to sit for the exam. Most state require 150 college credits, certain number of accounting/auditing/tax courses before exam, and experience under a CPA (can be in industry but longer vs in public accounting and shorter), so factor that into your plans – def check your state’s rules! What I hate most is auditing so your work in financial controls would give me nightmares, but if that’s your thing then controls design, auditing, or internal auditing may be right up your alley. Everyone thinks accounting and tax are very structured and to large extent that is true, but there is also lots of room for interpretation and judgment not to mention materiality, so there is always something requiring your attention.

      1. ToCountorNotToCount*

        I did like the FC department. My subsection focus was processing fuel invoices for the government and updating a really horrible database for a transportation industry credit card. I picked up side projects from other sections though and that was much more interesting. I think my ideal job would involve “stop touching that and let me fix it!” Thanks for the heads up on the Yt channel. I will check it out. I used to have an app that included some of the more complex logic matrices (?) needed to solve the super hard ones but it ceased functioning about 6 Apple updates ago.

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Boys club – no, with the usual complement of exceptions. Management, especially higher management, tends to be more men, but the mix coming out of school I believe is more women than men and has been for a while, so the writing is on the wall. Many of the big accounting firms are struggling to figure out how to retain and develop women, and I understand progress has been made. YMMV of course, but it’s difficult to be fully staffed without a bunch of women.

      Internships – many are paid, but not all. When they are paid, pay varies.

      Tax code – lol nope. If you’re doing taxes then yes, you’ll naturally learn at least some of the rules, but reference materials are a thing and are heavily used. Individual tax and simple business returns are often a huge chunk of small firms’ work, and that level of work is also given to audit staff. More complex returns, or corporate tax accounting, is specialized. My experience is you love it or hate it. I was good at it, but didn’t love it, so I went to audit.

      Masters – this came about because of the 150 hour requirements to take the CPA exam. Prior to that, an accounting masters was considered largely useless (tax masters was very useful IF you were in the tax field), with most people getting the accounting masters being people who wanted to teach. With the 150 hour requirement, many students didn’t want to take 150 hours as part of undergrad or couldn’t for some reason, so the 5th year masters to get the 150 was developed. I’m not aware that the masters is a requirement, just the 150 hours. You can get the 150 as part of undergrad, though it requires planning and dedication. However, once you’re out of school, what matters is the CPA license. Without it, you’re stuck in bookkeeping or lower level roles, even if you have the ability, and many jobs simply won’t consider you if you don’t have the CPA license. Other certs can be valuable, depending on what you’re doing, but in general the CPA is the gold standard.

      I don’t do mental math, and my math skills in general are not spectacular. Much of accounting work is repetitive and tedious. Audit is the glamourous side of the field, but even that has plenty of boring days (and I like audit). Technology is important and is only getting more so. If you decide to do this, take some VBA programming or data analytics classes if you can. The foundation will likely be helpful. Soft skills, verbal and written communication, negotiation, etc are way more important than most people think.

      I’m a CPA, currently in internal audit, previously in external audit.

      1. ToCountorNotToCount*

        Thank you! The program I’m looking at includes at least 1 data analytics class that is mandatory but I will have space in electives for more. That is really helpful information. I also hadn’t thought much about the idea of a 5th year masters but that is on my potential timeline now.

    4. Bonny*

      I’m a female CPA (nearly 41, I’ve had my CPA license since I was 25 or so.) There are many women in the field. Many of my managers have been women, but as another poster noted the top roles are still typically men although there is decent female representation at the bigger firms.

      There’s a wide variety of what accountants do, so it’s tough to provide too many specifics. You could work as an auditor for the Big 4 firms – constantly traveling to client sites, long hours, younger teammates, etc. You typically work either on the financial statement side or the tax side, but not usually both unless it’s a small firm. You could work in the accounting or finance department for a company, either big or small. Nearly everyone needs accountants. The bigger the company, the more likely you will be a specialist (only doing revenue accounting or only doing tax accounting, for example.) With small companies, you tend to “wear more hats.” You could work for yourself and take on your own clients, either providing bookkeeping or tax services or both.

      I work for a smaller company as the controller and I do it all – bookkeeping, tax returns for various types of entities, paying bills, producing financial reports and budget reports, providing K-1s for investments etc. I’ve done this for 3 years and it’s the most flexible job I’ve ever had. I’m the only accountant and I’m working remotely full time. In my earlier career, I was first an auditor and later a specialist in accounting departments for bigger companies and only touched 2-3 specialized non-tax areas.

      I did a paid internship in college many years ago, but I haven’t seen interns in the field in a long time so I don’t know what the current trends are.

      I’ve never heard of anyone memorizing the tax code, except for the CPA exam, thankfully! Accounting is more about understanding and applying concepts. How are assets fair-valued? How is tax depreciation different from GAAP depreciation? How is basis calculated? Then taking those ideas and calculating the correct values to put in the financial records or in a tax return and being able to defend what you did.

      I’m pretty logical and I love puzzles and figuring out complicated things. Accounting has been a good field for me, but prior to my current role I’d say I didn’t love the long hours, non flexible schedules, constant teamwork expectations, and politics in many companies (accounting is considered overhead and not always valued too highly. Many companies prefer their finance or investment analysts over accountants.)

      I hope that helps!

      1. ToCountorNotToCount*

        Thank you so much! There was a biiiig tire screech in my head when you mentioned lots of teamwork. I had been imagining being huddled up in my corner playing with numbers all day while people leave me alone. You make some excellent points and have given me some good things to think about. When I was looking for current jobs/internships locally it seems like we have a pretty broad range here for how small the city is. The one accountant I know irl does what you do, she is the comptroller at my husband’s job. I’m glad to have another perspective on this from someone in the same niche.

  81. Imaginary Number*

    Does anyone else who works in-person have this problem?

    I have a job where working in-person is 100% necessary. When I’m by myself at my desk I can take my mask off, eat my lunch, drink coffee, etc. But, obviously, if someone comes up and needs to talk to me, I have to put my mask on. Folks just don’t seem to be very considerate of this and continue to stop by for quick chats that really don’t need to happen in person (because of my work, some conversations do need to happen in-person but not all), whether work-related or not. It doesn’t help that my desk is closest to the entrance and conference room (and it’s an open office plan.)

    1. WellRed*

      Well, the problem is either your company doesn’t have a mask policy or it’s not enforcing the mask policy. Either way, you should speak up.

    2. Roci*

      Is the issue that people aren’t respecting the 6 ft social distance guideline? Or that people want to talk to you and when they do you have to wear your mask, so you end up wearing your mask more often and that’s uncomfortable?

      If the former, then yeah see if you can do something to enforce guidelines. If the latter, I would just expect to have to wear a mask all day if I were doing in-person work right now. That is what I and many others have done/are doing, it is the way of the world now. Get more comfortable masks?

  82. AnonAnonAnon*

    I just got a raise and a promotion!
    The communication from HR indicated both the amount that I am being paid in my check and the amount of the “total compensation package” I earn, with insurance and everything included. The second number is $11,000 more than the first. When people ask how much I earn, are they asking what my salary is or what the value of my total compensation package is? (Within the company, I’m pretty certain that HR is talking about the latter, but I am curious about how people in general might look at it. This is in the US, but the company is not US-owned.)

    1. anastaziad*

      When people ask what you earn, they just mean your salary (and if significant, your target or actual bonuses). The “total comp” number is intended to help you appreciate the value of the benefits provided.

      1. Meg*

        I find the total comp number is also a useful thing to have if you’re evaluating a new job offer, at least if it shows the breakdown (mine does). Things like insurance especially can vary wildly company to company and it’s helpful to see that breakdown to take into account with a new benefits package.

    3. ThatGirl*

      People are asking what your salary is – companies include that “total compensation” number to give you an idea of what benefits cost.

  83. Leslie Knope’s America*

    Tips or best practices for transitioning to a new role?

    I started a new job at a new company this week (yay!). It’s been a smooth transition so far and my manager has been fantastically helpful. I was at my former company for 10 years, so transitioning to a new company isn’t something I’ve had to do for awhile. Thanks in advance for any tips or guidance you all are willing to share.

    1. WellRed*

      Same advice I’d give to anyone starting a new job or new role. Spend more time watching and learning office norms and the job itself until you get settled in. (Don’t be the “at old job, we did it this way” new hire).

      1. I need a cool screen name to keep up with this group!*

        I had a co-worker that was constantly saying “at my old job we…”. Even years later she would regularly say this. So obnoxious – was there a reason you left old-job?

  84. bleebloop*

    Hi all! I have a question about professional HR certifications.

    I am currently unemployed and job hunting (how unique). I’m also continuing to pursue a career change (also unique ;-)) in 2009, I dropped out of college after two years, worked in a hospitality setting and accrued about 8 years of hospitality management experience. in late 2018, I left my hospitality job to help with the buildout of a nonprofit my sister and her business partner(?) were starting. It ended terribly (for me, the nonprofit is steadily growing) in late 2019. I messily continued to volunteer for them doing exclusively payroll until Nov 2020. I also worked as a census supervisor from July 2020-Nov 2020.

    Basically, I have already begun a career change and am trying to make something of the experience I have in management. I’ve been thinking of trying to transition to HR roles, as I have experience with hiring, payroll, etc. I’ve seen a few 6 month HR certifications from accredited nonprofit universities that cost $3k-6k. They seem to be marketed towards recent undergraduates trying to distinguish themselves in the HR field. If anyone out there has been in the position of hiring for HR roles, do you have any insight on what a certification might look like on a resume that includes a decent amount of management experience but no degree?

    1. HR Exec Popping In*

      This really depends on where you are applying. I think the certification is a nice add for someone who is breaking into the field. However, at my large company we require an undergraduate degree for our entry level HR positions or relevant work experience. You don’t have either unfortunately. Smaller companies they might be ok with the certificate and no direct experience or undergrad degree.

      1. bleebloop*

        Thank you, this is what I was wondering! I dealt with onboarding and managed payroll at the nonprofit I worked in, and I worked closely with our HR department in my hospitality management role. I was hope this would constitute some level of HR experience, but it’s good to know that it likely wouldn’t be seen that way. Appreciate your thoughts!

  85. The Tin Man*

    Looking for good vibes – HR was talking to our regional president this morning about things that include my getting a notable raise/promotion!

    It’s been way too long coming but I’m afraid the red tape will take longer as we are a giant company. Also I am hoping that it is actually a good-sized (10%+) raise but am a little afraid of it being a disappointing number. I also should become bonus eligible as well, or at least I’d better be.

    My “dream of dreams” is that I become in the pool for bonuses to be paid out in March 2021 for 2020 company performance.

    Here’s hoping!

  86. Tired of Tech*

    Hello!

    I’ve been in tech for the past ten years and I have to say, I just…don’t want to anymore. I was wondering if anyone here had made the switch from tech to teaching, specifically at the community college level? I am looking into making this pivot within the next few years. This was my initial career goal, so I do actually care about that world. I just want to know if it is actually feasible for someone who will be starting in their late 30s. Thank you!

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Do you want to teach tech, or something else? Because you’re right in the sweet spot for teaching what you already know (at a community college or trade/technical school).

    2. GreyNerdShark*

      You might want to investigate @deandad on twitter who also writes a column for Inside Higher Ed. He’s a community college man with a lot of useful into about it, https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/confessions-community-college-dean

      A point he’s been making is that most post-high school education is looking at a demographic time bomb: there aren’t that many 18yos in the pipeline. Community colleges are a bit better placed than 4 y ears because they do mature age students and vocational work but their students also tend to be harder to manage because of work and family commitments. So teaching is at strange hours. They have the same problem everyone else has of not enough state money so too reliant on tuition. So very precarious employment. Meaning you need to look very carefully at each college you are thinking of working at to see if it is sustainable and can give you an actual living. Yes tech is in demand but what does that mean when it comes to hours and pay and what you will be asked to teach?

  87. Self-Eval-Gremlin*

    This straddles the line between work and personal, so please feel free to tell me repost on the weekend thread…

    How do you fill out your self-evaluation form without letting your imposter syndrome/anxiety/insecurities totally overwhelm you? It’s eval time at my job, and I have the next month to get my self-eval done. I’m in a really low place right now. 2020 hit me really hard, and exacerbated all sorts of anxieties. I was mostly keeping my head above water, both at work and at home. I am definitely going to include the impact of 2020 in my self-eval (there is a question related to “factors, environmental or otherwise, that impacted your ability to achieve work”), but I’m really struggling to frame *anything* I did as even mediocre. I have a great boss, and he knows we’ve all struggled this past year, but right now I’m trying not to self-flagellate and have some objectivity when writing this thing. Any suggestions, or just sharing your experience, is appreciated. Thanks!

    1. Meg*

      Do you have any super trusted coworker’s who may be willing to read it for you? I trouble with mine last year, and a coworker went HAM with track changes, half of which were just admonishing me for not giving myself enough credit. I realize that’s pretty specific to my circumstances, but one thing that she pointed out to me is that my boss was not going to raise any of the score I gave myself. Last year I was temporarily reporting to the CEO, so she also pointed out that he’s busy and has a lot of his plate, so if I didn’t give myself credit for things he would have no idea.

      All of that said, I also struggled this year. Starting with a list of things I accomplished helped (thanks past self for starting the list, even if I didn’t update–definitely forgot I supervised a temp for months lol) and keeping it shorter than I have in past years.

    2. Sarra N. Dipity*

      Do you keep a “kudos” file in your email? I’ve been trying to do that, for similar reasons. Might not help this eval, but it could be useful in the future.

      I would echo the suggestion to check with a trusted coworker. Maybe not mentioning the imposter syndrome, but along the lines of “hey, it’s been a crazy year, and I’m having a hard time coming up with specific examples of projects/etc. that went really well that I was involved in for my eval”?

    3. Captain Marvel*

      I sympathize. This has been a tough time. But you made it! You kept your head above water and it sounds like you did accomplish some things. I lost a family member during our most important work event last year, right before my responsibilities kicked in. I felt like I failed everyone and didn’t do a good job because I just couldn’t concentrate when I was clear across the country and couldn’t go home to mourn with my family.

      When it came time to do my end of the year review, I wanted to apologize for not pulling my weight and dropping the ball. But you know what I realized? I didn’t drop the ball. My boss worked with me and was happy to give me any time she could afford to. Yeah my head wasn’t really in the game, but we did it. I did the best I could and I’m sure you did too!

      What worked for me was that I focused on the things I was able to do and not what I couldn’t finish. I think I ended up writing something along the lines of I finished all my projects despite the challenges of this year and am proud of what I accomplished. I acknowledged that I really struggled during that event but I still managed to pull it off. Oh, and I didn’t get to one project but I said that I made really good progress that I was excited to build off and hoped to finish sometime next year.

      I hope that helps!

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Why not just grade yourself as average?
      In person you can say to the boss, a good number of people struggled this year and you are no exception. If you had some baselines that you made sure you covered, mention those baselines that you covered routinely.

      If technology issues or other specific things slowed down your outputs then say so. One year my PTB sent me a new computer. I installed it and what a time suck. Four months later they sent me another computer. But-but-but fell on deaf ears and I installed that. How much work do you think i am getting done at my PT job? About eight months later they TRIED to send me yet another computer. At this point phone calls involved me standing and pacing back and forth, back and forth. What a freakin’ waste of my time. I made sure my boss knew how much time I was putting into this nonsense. Try to keep in mind there are things under your control and there are things NOT under your control. Be sure to separate out the two, not just for yourself but also for your boss.

    6. Roci*

      Literally just did this myself! Here is what I tried to keep in mind:
      -Base mindset: my manager does not care about my feelings. My manager shouldn’t have to wade through my imposter syndrome and anxiety to figure out how many reports I did this year (or whatever metric). By working to cut out the self-flagellation and caveats and apologies, I am helping my manager, and writing a better self-eval.

      -Also base mindset: this can be an exercise in self care. I spoke to my therapist about my anxiety about work, not getting done as much as I should have, etc. and they asked: “Well, have you actually been missing deadlines? Has your boss said you haven’t done something well?” and I had to admit no. So instead of comparing myself to last year, or the lofty impossible-to-achieve perfect standards I set for myself, I compared myself to “did it get done or didn’t it”, and tried to grade myself Pass/Fail. Remembering this is not the edge of the world, nobody cares about the individual productivity of desk workers in 1918 or 1944, we are not what we produce.

      -Find as many hard numbers and metrics that you can. These are a great dose of objectivity.

      -Kudos folder in the email is great. It was such a boost to just read all the “Thank yous” and “That was fast” to remind myself how others see me.

      -Around June at my other lowest point, I started using an excel spreadsheet (got a free template online) to help break down larger projects into smaller daily tasks. I would even break the tasks down into individual pomodoro sessions and mark each one when completed. Looking back at 6 months of effort was a great way to prove to the Critical Voice in your head that glosses over your victories and focuses on your “failures”. I’d totally forgotten about some things I did earlier in the year (a lot happened in 2020) and it was nice to see rows and rows of how hard I had worked.

      Good luck!

  88. Finch Feeding Fool*

    Hi! A few days ago Alison posted a funny author’s work posting fun at the rules for how women come across in the workplace — but I can’t find it! Can anyone help? Thanks!!

      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        Sarah Cooper is the bomb diggity! I find myself sitting in meetings wanting to say “But does it scale?” ;-)

  89. Not a Tattletale*

    hi! i’ll keep this as short as possible. i’m a librarian at a library, and part of my responsibilities is cataloging materials aka essentially, putting them in the system so people can find them in a search result and on our shelves. i share this duty with another librarian, they’re my peer. neither of us work here full-time, and generally not even on the same day (so like if i work on monday, they’ll be in on tuesday, etc). but i’ve noticed that when i catalog on the days i’m there, i’ll see the same stuff that i left on the shelf (cause i didn’t get to it or whatever) still on the shelves when i come in the next day. neither of us, as far as i know, have any major projects other than this, and we’re closed to the public for now, so there isn’t anyone to help at the desk. it’s expected that we catalog as much as we can whenever we’re in (so when we’re open to the public again, that’ll affect how much as get done). how can i bring this up to our manager without sounding like i’m tattling on them? i just don’t want to be the only one working on this cause it’s kind of a lot sometimes. thanks!

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      The best way to bring something up with your boss is to focus on the direct impact it’s having on your work. If you’re getting overwhelmed or you aren’t able to get to all of your duties because the work is piling up (because your coworker isn’t doing it), or patrons are complaining, then you should bring that up.

      But if it’s just annoying that it doesn’t seem like they’re doing any work but it’s not affecting your job, then unfortunately there’s not a lot you can do and it’s best to let it be.

      1. Not a Tattletale*

        unfortunately this is more than “oh this is annoying to me.” because my coworker isn’t doing what they’re supposed to be doing (or not doing it as often) more stuff piles up. even in non-pandemic times, i’m only there for a few days a week, for 4 hours at a time (my coworker works the same amount of hours). i do what i can, but it is piling up, and once patrons are allowed back in, they’re going to notice if stuff isn’t out when it’s supposed to be, and then they’ll get mad and complain. a couple of my other coworkers noticed too that the work isn’t getting done as quickly as it should be, which kind of validated what i had suspected. i mean, there are days when i don’t get to catalog as much as i’d like, due to other stuff i have to do, or if a lot of patrons ask questions, but i do try to get at least some stuff done.

        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          Then you should absolutely bring it up with your boss. You could even frame it as “hey if we can’t keep up during slower times, how are we going to do during normal times?”.

            1. A Simple Narwhal*

              Hmm I’ll take a crack at some wording! How about:

              “I’m noticing that the catalogue list is really piling up lately, and I’m having to spend more and more time on it, which takes me away from [other duties]. I’ve also noticed that a lot of times the list is left untouched from my last shift – I understand that people have different responsibilities and priorities, would it be possible to reallocate some of it so it doesn’t fall completely to me each time? I want to make sure that I can take care of [other duties] and be available to our patrons without neglecting this task, which we all know is an important one. I’m also concerned that if we are unable to keep up with the list during these slower times, we’ll run into bigger issues when we’re back to normal.”

              Adjust for tone and actual library terms, but that should get your concern across in a non-tattling way. Hope this helps!

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Is there any way to first talk with your coworker about it, noting that you notice she hasn’t cataloged the books you left on your prior shift? Maybe there’s an honest reason for it, and maybe not, but I’d probably start there.

      1. Not a Tattletale*

        i ordinarily would, but i feel like this is kind of beyond something a peer should be asking about. like, if it were something smaller like the font size on a spine label not being right, that would be one thing.

    3. HB*

      I’d mention that you’re feeling a bit overwhelmed to your supervisor. Keep track of how much you’re doing, let the question hang in the air about what your coworker is doing. Your supervisor may choose to speak to your coworker about it or may offer to help out or get you other help, but that’s up to them. Normally I’d say it’s a straight forward “coworker is goofing off instead of working” answer but things are really weird for a lot of folks right now and we’re not all at our best during a pandemic. There may be reasons for coworker not having the same output, and they may have shared with your supervisor. We’re all (library workers especially *wave*) under a lot of extra stress right now.

      1. Not a Tattletale*

        hiiiii fellow library worker! :D thank you for this response. i don’t like bringing up stuff like this, especially now when we’re all under even more stress than normal, but it’s already starting to pile up and it’s only going to get worse once we open to the public in a couple weeks and i don’t want us to get in trouble because our boss thinks we’ve been slacking off because stuff isn’t done.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Are the books in quarantine?

      Does you coworker have a sudden injury that prevents her from lifting too many books?

      Is she working on something else?

      The expression about borrowing trouble is useful for the worry about what will happen when the library reopens. Wait until you cross that bridge.

      I think what I might do is ask if the LD wanted me to work a few more hours since it seems like the books are backlogged waiting to be shelved. Eh, some coin in your pocket. I’d say nothing about the cohort and I’d be shamelessly opportunistic, “Oh, Boss, I see you need help with X, would you like me to stay later and help?”
      Here the idea is don’t worry about what others are doing, but look for opportunities to show willingness to take on more and do more.

  90. Nacho*

    An old coworker of mine just posted something on Linked In about how his boss at our old job (everybody was laid off due to COVID) was a bully and how he wants suggestions about new jobs he could look into that would allow him to help fight bullies, who he despises. Ignoring whether or not his boss was actually a bully (I found her direct but friendly whenever I worked with her), should I tell him not to post that kind of thing on Linked In? IMO it’s not really appropriate to insult your old boss on a public website meant for networking like that.

    1. PollyQ*

      Unless you’re very close friends, I’d leave it alone. People make bad choices every day, and as a general rule, it’s not our job to correct or educate them, especially when it’s something that will only affect them.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      The last time I looked there were many articles on the net regarding workplace bullying. You could suggest to your friend that he spend some time pouring over these articles and see what conclusion he can develop from there.

  91. lil falafel wrap*

    Any social workers/therapist-type people have advice for learning new interventions?

    Some background: I’m in a clinical internship for my MSW program and have not had much luck talking to my field instructor about them. Some context, I’m working with two sisters, 6 and 8, who are court mandated to attend therapy after a DCFS case. Case is still open and they’re with mom. Mom’s main concern is getting them to behave. I’ve mostly worked with teenagers in the past, so I’m a little at a loss at what to do with them both to keep them engaged, and to actually explore and change their behaviors, especially over zoom. Any suggestions for interventions for that age group would be much appreciated! I also am working with a therapy-resistant teenager, and while I have a better sense on how to interact with him, I would be interested in any suggestions on that front too. Thanks!

    1. PollyQ*

      I’m curious, what kind of misbehavior are we talking about? Is it truly out of the norm for kids their age? Or is the core problem that mom needs help in learning positive ways to discipline her kids, and that the kids need support in dealing with a (possibly, somewhat) abusive mom?

      1. lil falafel wrap*

        Honestly, kid’s behaviors are normal and mom’s behavior is too. Mom’s not abusive in the slightest, from what I’ve seen and from the CPS documents. But therapy is required because of the open case.

    2. Barb*

      It seems to me to be outrageously unfair to you and to the children, that you as an intern are apparently being left on your own to figure out how to help them, to the point that you’re asking strangers on the internet!
      You need to bring your questions to the trained professionals and teachers who are required to be helping you learn to help these kids.

      1. lil falafel wrap*

        Lol I agree! You’re right for sure; thankfully I should have better professors this semester.

    3. tangerineRose*

      I think it’s odd that you aren’t being given help on this, but…

      Kids around those ages aren’t always listened to or treated as “real people” by many adults. Listening to them and thinking about their answers before replying could be something they find very validating, and may make it easier for them to take any advice you have.

      Since you said the mom and kids are behaving normally, I wonder if the mom needs more people telling her that the kids are behaving normally.

  92. Sarra N. Dipity*

    I found out yesterday that my immediate manager is leaving for another job in three weeks. I’m devastated – she’s amazing, and I’ve learned so much from her, and we work extraordinarily well together.

    Yesterday, our director said something about how we’d of course be backfilling the position, and to remember that we do have a pretty awesome referral bonus.

    I’m torn. I think I might be ready for a promotion into her vacated position, but I’m not sure if I would even want it.

    Pros:
    1. career advancement, of course. I’d be directly managing three people, whereas right now I’m in a kind of team lead position for them
    2. more money, almost of course (I did just get a raise this month, so I’m not 100% sure the promotion would come with one — although by all rights it should!)
    3. different work. I’d be much less in the data analysis and more into strategic business stuff, more client contact (which I do love; I get along with clients great, and they tend to like me a lot)

    Cons:
    1. I would probably end up working more hours. This would suck, because I’m already putting in around 50-55/week (I’m salaried)
    2. I worry that I’m not organized enough for this! I have ADD, and it’s been a struggle to find systems that work. I think I finally have one (haven’t missed a deadline in ages), but the tasks that this position is responsible for are different, so I’d probably need to set up a new system
    3. I’ve been moving into a role that includes more design work, which I’ve really loved. I don’t know if the manager role would have room for that.

    Uncertain things:
    1. I don’t know if I can do it. And what if I can’t? I don’t think I could go back to the level I’m at – that would be super awkward, and not only would I feel like a failure but I would probably be seen as a failure by all my coworkers, and I’d have to quit out of shame.
    2. I don’t know if management sees me as someone who can do it. I’ve had some issues this year because I’m the only one at my level who’s a parent, and with the pandemic, we’ve all been working from home and kiddo’s been in remote school this whole time. This has caused some problems, but they’re basically worked out at this point, but memories are long at this company.
    3. I’m older than most of my coworkers (except for upper management) as this is my second career. I don’t think I could handle it if someone else from my level were promoted into the position; they’ve all been here for a shorter time than me, and in their current role for less time as well. I worry about this one a lot, because they’re all young and with no kids or responsibilities outside work, and seem to have nothing to do but put in tons of effort into work. (and I would “handle it” professionally – I don’t play politics, but this would probably mean that I’d start seriously job hunting for my own mental health)

    Anyhow. My current plan is to talk with my manager-who’s-leaving and ask her opinion on all of this (without bringing in all the emotional crap; I know that’s not really appropriate. I will probably tell her all the emotional crap once she’s gone, though, as we both expect to be maintaining a friendship).

    So… after that tl;dr mess… any advice? anyone been in a similar situation? words of encouragement/etc. greatly appreciated.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      I think your first step needs to be talking to your manager. She’ll be able to give you a pretty clear idea of what the role would entail, if extra hours would be involved, etc, and that will probably be a big help in determining if you’d be a fit for the role, or if you’d even want it.

    2. Person from the Resume*

      I see your cons 1 and 3 as huge. I see them as huge negatives and personally would avoid a new job that required it. A lot of your other concerns seem like self-esteem/imposter syndrome/normal fear about rejection. They may not be valid and I think you need decide if you **want** the job.

      But your uncertain #3 is worrisome. If you choose not to interview because you don’t want the job, what does it matter if a younger peer is hired for it? I think that’s something you need to examine.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        Tacking on to the worry about uncertain #3:

        “…because they’re all young and with no kids or responsibilities outside work, and seem to have nothing to do but put in tons of effort into work.” Do you know this for a fact? Or are you just assuming that because they are single/don’t have kids that they have nothing else going on in their lives? Plenty of young people still have a lot going on in their lives besides work – they may have family members that they’re responsible for, maybe they have invisible health concerns they’re struggling with, they might be dealing with crippling student or medical debt, or maybe they’re trapped in a 600 sq ft apartment with a terrible roommate and miserable. Maybe they’re struggling with living alone and missing family and friends. And maybe they have none of those negative things but have other priorities in their lives that they want to put in front of work, you just don’t know.

        Whether or not you decide to pursue this promotion, I’d suggest you address your assumption that childless/single means you’ve got nothing going on in your life.

        1. Sarra N. Dipity*

          I actually do know this; it’s a small company, and there’s 4 other people in this role, all of whom have explicitly said something very similar.

          1. A Simple Narwhal*

            Ok! As long as it’s direct knowledge then that’s fine. I think the thing to recognize there is that you’re just in different parts of your life and have different priorities – and that’s ok! They may be in a place where they literally don’t have anything to prioritize over work and are happy to pour themselves and their time into it, and you’re at a point where you want to do your job during standard hours and then switch over to your family/other responsibilities. And that’s perfectly fine! If your company is one that rewards people for giving all of their spare time and energy into your job and encourages people to do so, then you may be happier at a company with a different culture. Again, perfectly fine!

            I used to work for a company like that, where people were encouraged to spend every waking moment working, expected you to constantly learn new skills and be on top of industry news in your off-hours, and be best friends with coworkers so any off-hours socializing could involve work chat. I liked it in the beginning, but after a few years it was exhausting, and I wanted a better work-life balance. I’m now at a place that expects you to do your work and then actually go home/log off. They recognize that we’re people with lives, and they want us to live them. My coworkers are lovely people, but we all have lives (a lot have families too) so no one expects people to socialize or be best friends. I may have found this type of place boring in my early 20s, but now it’s a dream. You might be happier at one of those places, and they’re definitely out there! There’s no shame in looking for one if you’re feeling limited by your lifestyle in your current role.

      2. Sarra N. Dipity*

        If I decide I don’t want to ask about the promotion, I would really be fine with someone else from within the company getting it. I probably wasn’t very clear there. If I decided I did want to ask, and they went with someone else, I would assume that they had really good reasons for it, but I know right off the bat that I would have my own personal emotional reactions to this. I have fairly good ideas what they’re rooted in, but I would rather not talk about them here.

    3. RC Rascal*

      I would think about your long term goals with this organization. If you are hoping to advance you may send a negative message by NOT throwing your hat in the ring for this one.

      Even if you don’t think it’s quite the right job sometimes it’s better to be interested, at least for the optics.

    4. PollyQ*

      Re: Con #3. IME, managers have very little, or more commonly, no time to do “tasks”, e.g. the design work you’re interested in. They’re fully engaged in dealing with their reports and reporting to upper-level mgmt. This is certainly something you can explicitly ask about the role. But I suspect the answer, especially for someone who’s new to managing, is going to be that you’ll have to give that work up.

      I also recommend you find a way to get comfortable with having a manager that’s younger than you, because the older you get, especially if you don’t move into management, the likelier it’ll be that you’ll have one.

      1. Sarra N. Dipity*

        The manager that’s leaving is younger than me (my previous two were as well). That’s not the entirety of it. I think there’s more a tenure thing going on – I’ve been here 3.5 years, and none of them have been here more than 2. I’ve been in this role 2 years, and none of them have been in it more than 1. I know length of employment isn’t a guarantee of advancement, but it would still mess with my head.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Cons:
      1) Ask about hours per week.
      2) Again ask. They probably see something or you would not be team lead.
      3) Fear of rejection. If they reject you then ask for advice as to how do be more successful the next time.

      Uncertain:
      1) No body knows if they can do the job. What it takes is the determination to learn what you need to know to do the new job well. Can you find the determination or is this not a battle you want to fight right now? Either answer is perfectly fine.
      2) Find out what management thinks. Worst case scenario you find out that you are not promotable. This is good information. Why waste a ton of years at a place that is not invested in you? Find out now, don’t prolong the agony.
      3) Someone with less experience becoming your boss. You know, this one is an interesting one. I have found that when this happens the new boss usually deferred to my judgment on matters. It actually ended up being a sweet spot to be in as the boss felt they needed me to help keep the ship right side up and sailing forward.

      To me there is only one thing worse than find out someone has NO faith in me. That worse thing is when *I* feel I have NO faith in my own self. If not looking into this job is going to be something you beat yourself up with for years to come, then you are better off looking into it and finding out a) it’s not something you’d like/want or b) they don’t want you in that position. Then you have an answer rather than years of “but-what-if?”.

    6. No promotions, please*

      “I don’t think I could handle it if someone else from my level were promoted into the position; they’ve all been here for a shorter time than me, and in their current role for less time as well.”

      I’ve been in your position, and helped recruit a replacement for my boss. Because we ended up hiring from the outside, I didn’t have to deal with the feelings that a younger and less tenured peer becoming my supervisor would trigger.

      That said, the person we hired was younger than me. At 50, not being interested in a managerial role, that’s going to happen more and more frequently. I’m a data scientist and love my work. The job would change significantly if I became a manager. Right now I get to code and work on presentations on my own, with very few meetings and a 40-h workweek. The role above me is meetings all the time and tons of overtime. By not caring about the optics of younger people being promoted above me, I get to do what I enjoy the most, with a great salary and none of the headaches of having to work on weekends and go to endless meetings.

      If you are enjoying design work and learn from your manager that the new role will not allow you to do that, I’d not apply to the job, and instead would try to steer the hiring process for my manager toward external candidates with tons of experience. Even if they are younger, if they have more managerial experience, you could easily justify to yourself why it’s not a big deal rather than going for the job just to satisfy your ego.

  93. MJ*

    Hi all. I work in writing, where I belong to a number of groups offering feedback, advice, and leads. Lately, some have become dramatic or painful to be in, because I’ve asked for input on a dilemma of mine (whether or not to take a job that requires me to go out of the country). Our group leader expressed her con-argument viewpoints, which I understood, while others suggested I should weigh things.

    I’m friends with our group leader on Facebook and this morning she sent me an email that I caused her stress by bringing it up and that my question would be making other people uncomfortable about their own decisions to stay home. I haven’t responded to her note but I feel like an idiot now. I don’t want to do anything rash but I also feel like pulling away from the group for now. What do you think?

    1. Colette*

      She seems ridiculous. Whether or not you should go out of the country depends a lot on the details, but asking the question was a reasonable thing to do.

      1. MJ*

        Thanks. I understand where she’s coming from, and respect her opinion, but I felt shocked that she’d write to me like that. I figured to step away for a while.

        1. PollyQ*

          Eh, maybe only if you’re unhappy with the group as a whole? I know this person’s a group lead, but I wouldn’t assume she’s speaking for the membership as a whole. (And I suspect she knows that herself, at least on a subconscious level. If she really wanted to set a new rule for the group, she could’ve done it publicly, instead of doing it secretly.)

          1. MJ*

            I’m thinking it’s mainly her but some will/might probably agree with her. I feel a bit blindsided.

            1. WellRed*

              Leaders don’t dump their stress on others. And, this isn’t even an actual employer being stressed, correct? It’s a … group? Leave it!

    2. RagingADHD*

      The group leader is overly enmeshed with the group. If a perfectly reasonable question like that distresses her to the point that she was moved to chastise you, she is not functioning well right now. She probably is the one who needs to step back, because she isn’t able to act professionally.

      Since that’s unlikely, it makes sense to pull back yourself. Unless you’re getting really valuable input and work leads, I’d just leave. If you are, maybe just take a temporary break.

      IME, groups with unprofessional and highly reactive leadership aren’t usually the ones where I get value. I found that I was usually the one giving a lot of value with no return. I don’t really do FB groups for writing stuff anymore, for that very reason.

  94. Box of Kittens*

    INTERVIEW THANK YOU NOTE QUESTION
    I’ve been applying for a new job since November and had a phone interview this morning. The job posting didn’t list a salary range and I forgot to ask the interviewer. Ugh. I plan to send a thank you note this afternoon or tomorrow morning (when is best?). Is it appropriate to add something like, “I also meant to ask what the salary range is for this position.”?

    1. Colette*

      I wouldn’t, mostly because I don’t think it’ll change what happens next. You’ll get called to another interview where you can ask; you’ll get an offer; or they’ll decide not to move forward. If you need to know before you go on another interview, you can ask when they contact you to schedule it. “I realize I should have asked the last time we talked; can you give me an idea of the salary range for this role? I’d like to make sure we’re on the same page before we move forward.”

  95. Just Peachy*

    Something is wrong with my manager.

    We’re supposed to get snow on Monday where I live. It may end up being fine, but right now, weather forecasts are showing up to 6″. It’s also supposed to rain the night before, which could mean icy conditions Monday. Anyway, I’m leaving in 2 weeks to be a stay at home mom to my first baby, due next month, so, my company is hiring for my replacement. My manager just said “I intentionally scheduled one of our potential sales support hires for an iterview Monday. It’s my litmus test to see how committed she was since we’re supposed to have inclement weather Monday. If she would have tried to push it to Tuesday, I would have been really skeptical of her commitment.”

    Ah, yes. A good test of committment is seeing if people willd rive in dangerous conditions to work here.

    I should also mention that my manager herself works from home often, but never allows her employees to WFH, despite having full capability to do so. I could go on and on, but I’ll just say, I’m very glad I’m almost done here. :)

    1. Donkey Hotey*

      Agreed. Granted, I live in an area that’s infamous for shutting down on the threat that it might snow, but scheduling a meeting like that totally violates Wheaton’s Law.

      1. Just Peachy*

        Sure, definitely agree that some people and cities overreact to snow.

        But yes, exactly – when you’re intentionally scheduling a meeting (for someone who isn’t even an employee of ours at this point!) basically just to be a jerk? Big yikes. Haha.

    2. CatCat*

      Yikes. I’d be soooooo tempted, especially this close to leaving, to ask boss, “If I were a candidate, I would ask to push it to Tuesday as a litmus test of how committed the company is to good judgment and employee safety. If the company would have tried to keep it to Monday, I would have been really skeptical of the company’s commitment.”

        1. CatCat*

          I imagined you did in my mind and it was glorious :-D

          Glad you’ll be getting away from this dingbat!

      2. AnonPi*

        +1000

        These stupid kind of games give more insight into the type of poor managers they are, than how committed their employees (or potential employees) are.

        1. tangerineRose*

          Yeah, and one thing that frustrates me is how short-sighted this is from so many perspectives. Even if the manager doesn’t care about the employees as human beings, if an employee is killed or injured trying to get to work during conditions like these, the company is probably going to have to scramble to find a replacement.

      3. HB*

        Agreed! I’m so sick of hearing that staff safety is “a priority” (especially during COVID) but then seeing just the opposite in practice.

      4. tangerineRose*

        “If I were a candidate, I would ask to push it to Tuesday as a litmus test of how committed the company is to good judgment and employee safety.” This!!!

    3. Girasol*

      The candidate could consider this lack of concern for a potential employee’s safety a red flag, decline the interview, and then post the situation on Glassdoor so that other good candidates avoid the company was well. Your boss may be making the hiring process harder on herself.

  96. Princess Scrivener*

    I’m making this work-related in a roundabout way: Where has The Man Becky Lynch been recently? I’ve been missing the sage work-related advice and sarcastic comebacks, and I read almost every day.

    1. Lyudie*

      I’ve seen her pop in now and then but yes, she’s been quite scarce the last several weeks and I miss her as well!

  97. Hiring Manager*

    Any advice on whether it’s appropriate for hiring managers to connect (on LinkedIn) with job candidates after they have been rejected from a role? Or, any suggested scripts for doing so?

    For context, I’m hiring for a couple roles this year and had some applicants who were a little too junior for one position. However, I expect my team will continue to grow over the next few years and would love to stay connected with people who seemed great, but just weren’t the right fit.

    1. Venus*

      From other AAM letters I think it’s fair to say something like “You are a strong applicant, and when our team grows in coming years I would encourage you to apply again. If you have linkedin then my contact info is … “

  98. Glitsy Gus*

    I’ve been low key trying to look for a new job for a while now, but at this point it’s pretty clear I need to step up my game. From looking around on job boards and also talking to folks around about my same professional level but in a different type of work I’m starting to think my best plan of attack is to find a good recruiter to help me out.

    My problem is, I have never looked for a recruiter before, I have no idea where to begin to find someone good that could actually help me out. I have sent my resume off to some folks on LinkedIn who reached out because, well, why not? But it’s pretty clear they are just trolling for resumes to build their stockpile, rather than really trying to connect skills with active job postings. So, how does one get connected with a good recruiter? I have friends/connections in my general industry (say, Llama care system development) but very few in my specialty (llama care quality management) and none in my specialty that I trust with the information that I am actively job hunting.

    2. Malika*

      Do you know someone who had a good experience with an external recruiter, who you could confide in? Irelevant as to in which industry they are working in, ask for the contact details of their recruiter. Contact this recruiter and ask succintly if they have recommendations for bonafide recruiters. I had a very good experience with a recruiter who at the time specialized in EA’s. A friend of mine works in HR and I put her through to this recruiter. The recruiter then sent her a short list of quality recruiters who could help her get a job in her field.

  99. Justin*

    You folks haven’t heard from me for a while.

    I was mired in some real nonsense at work at the end of summer while also starting to teach classes on decentering whiteness both out of necessity and as part of my research for school.

    Well, work is still not my favorite but I got back into their good graces. Would rather be elsewhere but that seems like it’ll tale time.

    More importantly… I am writing a book about (among other things) whiteness and language teaching, expanding on my school work and research. (Alison, I hope this qualifies as both school and work, since it is.)

    It will encompass my dissertation (though I refuse to write in traditional academic language) and will come out in ’23. And hopefully by then I can be out of this job and really pushing against the status quo more effectively instead of as a side hustle.

    1. Can I just nap until retirement?*

      Good luck to you!
      Ironically at the same time an email came out saying I won a small award for suggesting we eliminate the exclusive use of dead presidents in our trainings ( random name generators people!) my manager was berating me for pushing such a ‘dumb idea that doesn’t really matter’. I’m a white US woman who recognizes my privilege and wants to make appropriate changes.

      I wish with all my heart your work will bear that fruit.

      2. 3 Owls*

        Funny thing, I actually tried that for a couple trainings and was told I was being racist for using “ethnic” names.

  100. CreepyPaper*

    I wrote in last week about the sales guys who chase me constantly for updates and fielding all their chases takes longer than the actual work.

    Well.

    It’s got worse because it’s almost month end and this is when, as a logistics department, we’re trying to get everything out of the door on time and I really need to get my head down and work.

    The chasing has intensified! The guy who rings me four times on the trot has started calling my colleague to check if I’m okay and when I do reply I’m met by ‘Nadja told me you were probably busy, are you really so busy you can’t answer the phone?’

    I told my manager about this and gave her proof of how often Annoying Sales Guy is calling me for updates and she said that she’d speak to him about it. Nadja has also started noticing that he’s calling and emailing her a lot – she’s just out of university and this is her first ‘real’ job so she thought the constant chasing was something normal so she hasn’t said anything yet. Our other colleague is close to retirement and seems to be able to brush the salesfolk off easily. Maybe when I’m a 63 year old man with 40 years in the industry I can do that too. I need to learn his secrets.

    With the more reasonable sales folk, I’ve started saying to them ‘sure, I’ll do my best to have that back to you by *time and date* but please remember it’s almost month end and we’re swarmed right now’ and to be fair to them they’ve backed off. One of them even said he didn’t realise how busy logistics actually gets and apologised, so from him anyway all I get is an occasional ping on Teams asking how I’m doing. So it’s just that one guy that’s bothering me constantly now.

    I’m working on it! My health issues are improving too so I’m almost back to normal. I woke up today in less pain than I’ve experienced in about two years so here’s hoping it continues to get better.

    1. Colette*

      Are you telling him when you’ll get back to him when you first get the request? Because that might help – if nothing else, it will help cut subsequent contacts down to “as I told you, I expect to get back to you by X”.

      1. CreepyPaper*

        I do, I give him a timeframe but he’s still chasing me constantly. Deadlines can be days away and he’ll be calling me the afternoon he gave me the task to see if I’ve done it yet.

        1. Gumby*

          As long as you have said in a straightforward manner: “I will get to it by date, stop calling,” I would be so so tempted to move the deadline each time he calls. And be blatant. “Well, I was planning to get it to you on the 10th, as we discussed when I last spoke to you and asked you to stop calling since each call wastes time I could spend doing actual work, so now it will be sent on the 11th.” “Hi persistentGuy. I have here in my notes and the follow up email I sent that I had committed to sending it on the 11th and that you would not contact me on this matter again. But here you are calling/emailing. The new deadline is the 13th.”

          But if that isn’t possible (it rarely is), make calls as unsatisfying as possible for him. Don’t give new info. Don’t give assurances. Don’t change dates. Do NOT under any circumstances move his task up in the queue to get rid of him since it just teaches him that nagging works. Use the same exact sentence each time he calls. “Hi, I will do [thing] by [date] as previously agreed upon. Goodbye.”

    3. tangerineRose*

      Can you ask your other colleague, the 63 year old man, for advice? He might be willing to tell the Annoying Sales Guy to back off, and that might work. It’s frustrating that some people are more willing to listen to men, but sometimes that’s something you can use if you have an ally.

  101. River*

    Am I the only person who thinks of questions I really want to ask on open thread during the week, and then completely forgets what I was going to ask about by Friday?

    1. Donkey Hotey*

      Used to. Started composing earlier in the week and tweaking it so that come Friday, I could cut and paste.
      Good luck!

      1. River*

        Thanks! I keep thinking I should do that but then decide it’s too much work and/or fool myself into thinking I’ll actually remember this time.

  102. jef*

    So my department has been emailing the “team” to ask us to complete a survey on personal social media use. It sounds like they are trying to recruit some of us to act as conduits to help spread our department’s social media message. Is this weird? I found it very intrusive (asking for which platforms you use, how much, why do you like them, etc.). I work for a university if that impacts your read on the situation.

        1. PollyQ*

          My advice would be to take them at face value — it’s a genuine request for information. Even if it’s not anonymous, just filling out a survey doesn’t commit you to taking on a new job role. If and when they try to recruit you personally to do social media for them, you can let them know you’re not interested in that kind of work.

          1. HBJ*

            I agree with this. I’d go ahead and fill it out, fudge stuff if you want, and then just say no if they try to get you to post to your personal accounts. Personally, I’d say, “I have a very small group of social media friends, so the message would not spread very far. Additionally, my family and friends use social media for sharing photos and life updates. My group typically mutes people who share politics/work/news/listicles/quizzes/insert-other-non-personal-update-here more than rarely.” Which is the truth.

        2. RickT*

          If you keep your personal web presence totally separate from any professional presence I’d only answer about your professional accounts.

        3. HB*

          One of my coworkers went the whole “I don’t believe in social media Facebook is a surveillance system and Twitter is going to steal my DNA” route. I know that’s not sincerely how she feels, but it gave her some relief from being assigned to social media promo tasks! (Which should be handled by our PR department anyway.)

    2. River*

      At a university I’ve gotten surveys like that but usually from friends, and always for some sort of research or class project, not what it sounds like here. Also, the research ones always have a page at the beginning on how it is a research project, how the data will be used, etc.

    3. RickT*

      Is it possible the survey is more to identify which platform(s) they want to start using and less who could help distribute content?

  103. EA to PM*

    My current role is an assistant at a very well known company that is notorious for employee burnout. My goal joining this company and team was to eventually transition into project/program management. My manager is well aware of this, and this was discussed during my hiring process. However, ever since I’ve started I’ve been used to fill gaps in our team (my mental image is the girl in front of the leaking dam trying to plug holes with her fingers). This ranges from helping other managers with software licenses to now tech product management. My team is very specialized in what they do, and I have no tech background, so I am basically clawing my way through the tasks I’ve been given and teaching myself the best I can given the circumstances. However, I see no transition to PM in sight, and I see more and more being given to me. Its reaching the point where I am owning parts of a product and am the main contact, yet my title is still assistant. I am really at a loss of where to go from here, and I feel like I have no idea what steps to take next. Before anyone asks, my boss is very bad at giving feedback, even when I specifically ask for it. I would love to have an actual career conversation, especially with “I see you excelling in X, but to move to PM I need to see more Y and Z.” Any advice?

    1. introverted af*

      Do you have anyone you could talk to that is a PM, or is more connected to that? This seems like the ideal situation for “informational interviews” – discuss your resume, where you want to go, where you are now, and ask what else they think you need to get a PM role.

      Outside of that, I think it makes more sense to ask your boss about a title change (and possibly corresponding pay raise?). Or just say, I wanted to move towards PM work, but I’m moving towards more technical roles currently. Do I need these technical skills to move towards PM work? If not, how can I take on some of that in my current role?

    2. Mouse*

      I am literally in this exact same situation–I wondered if I blacked out and wrote this this morning! The best advice I can give (and am trying to follow) is to take all of the experience you’re gaining but not being recognized (by title/pay/etc) for, create a beautiful resume, and get the job you want somewhere else.

      I think even if I did end up with a Project Manager title here (promised for this year, we’ll see), none of my coworkers will ever see me with the authority to actually manage a project. Especially since they won’t hire to replace me and I’d also still be an assistant (calendaring, travel, etc) to our head of projects. I think I just need to go somewhere else.

      1. EA to PM*

        YES! We are 100% in the exact same situation! I feel like I am slipping under the radar because I am the assistant and no one is placing much value in what I do (don’t get me started on that). Your comment of “none of my coworkers will ever see me with the authority to actually manage a project” is hitting the nail on the head.

    3. Malika*

      You mention below that you feel that they don’t see your value and what you are currently doing. I of course cannot assess your situation, but I can suggest that your problem might be the exact opposite. You are putting out fires on the daily and they finally have an assistant they can trust (we have all experienced the line of assistants that get churned in certain teams/departments because they are not a mtach for the requirements). You are learning quickly, doing projects which are out of your job description AND you are a dependable assistant? In a company that is notorious for employee burnout? They can’t believe their luck and no way that they are going to move you to PM.
      When looking for a role, could you look for a transfer to project management assistant and then work up from there? You get a more clear path to promotion that way and you can jetisson the non PM parts of your job more quickly. The eventual pay cut (within reason) is worth it if you get to avoid burnout and a step onto the right career path. Good luck.

      Source: A former EA that finally got out of the pink ghetto zone by focusing on roles that had nothing to do with planning/pa-ing/processing widgety details no one was ever going to appreciate if you put a gun to their head, and were more focused on my customer service qualities. Three months in to new job, couldn’t be happier. Worth the 80 job applications and tiny pay cut.

  104. READY TO RETIRE - SORT OF*

    I find myself at the other end of the spectrum than many of you. I’ve worked for decades, paid my dues, have a stable job with a good salary. I’ve been eligible for retirement for a few years and thought to pull the trigger summer 2020 or summer 2021. But the idea terrifies me. I LIVE my job. A 3-day weekend has me bored and climbing the walls. I like a lot of social things but have no consuming hobby like gardening or woodworking or bird watching. I’ve done a lot of volunteer work in the past, usually gravitating towards a leadership role, and those have come to a natural conclusion. I’ve explored some new volunteer options the last few years but found those tried full of internal politics or really badly managed. I don’t want to run or “fix” an organization at this point. Then options for exploration were curtailed with COVID.

    So now I find myself somewhat coasting, reluctant to take on new long-term projects. I’ve been candid with my manager and all involved are eager for me to stay. I’m a high performer, so no concerns about that.

    My spouse has been happily retired for 5 years and quite content with the daily routine. We both fear me retiring and being bored will upset the apple cart. I have a great relationship with my adult children but they need little of my time. No grandkids.

    I’m so grateful to have the luxury of choice. “No decision” means continuing on in my current role, which admittedly is not challenging anymore so feels like I’m just marking time. I know the options: hobbies, volunteer work, different full- or part- time/work, continue mindlessly on current path. Yet I don’t seem to be making any progress.

    1. Glitsy Gus*

      Well, if it helps at all my dad retired last year at 74 not because he needed to keep working, but just because he liked his job and wasn’t ready to quit until then. So you aren’t alone in your boat of liking your job enough to not be counting the days until retirement.

      In light of my dad’s experience, my suggestion would be to just keep your job until you want to retire, rather than feeling like you NEED to get out of the way by some set time. Unless you have health concerns or something like that, do what makes you happy here. You can talk to your manager and team about medium and long-ish term projects. Maybe getting you signed up for a ten-year project isn’t a great idea, but if you really are happy why not take on something that could last a year or two? Or maybe take a small step down, talk to management about possibly going 3/4 time and taking a few things off your plate, but keeping the stuff where you really shine. That would give you a bit more time to look around and see what else is out there that you may like to pursue when you are ready to really retire.

      1. tangerineRose*

        I was also going to suggest working part time – that way you can take it easier if you want, but you still can work.

    2. Asenath*

      I was really worried about not handling retirement well, but then I approached the point at which I’d always vaguely assumed I would retire. I was hitting an age that was, in fact, a bit past the age at which many of my co-workers were retiring, the financial stuff was in place, and although I liked my work, I was getting more tired at work and less enthusiastic about getting in there every day, especially in the winter. I had a lot of leave time and time off in lieu of overtime. So I started months – maybe six months? – before the official date I had picked, and started taking that time – a long weekend here, a midweek break there – and didn’t plan anything. I told myself this is what it will be like; I’ll wake up and not need to go anywhere. At times, I gave some thought to what I wanted to do – I decided very early I wouldn’t take on paid work like some retirees do. I didn’t want to, and if I wanted to be doing paid work, I’d stay where I was and earn more doing something I knew well and found easy than I could ever earn at some new part time job. I decided to put off any decision about taking up volunteer work, traveling, taking more courses than the one course of personal interest I usually do, etc. I told all the people who asked about my plans that I was just going to take it easy and see how things went. And that’s what I did when I retired. I read, did puzzles, played games, watched videos. I’d just started an exercise program – the first new planned activity that attracted me – when COVID hit, but, well, that’s the breaks. During the really strict COVID restrictions, I attended a few online meetings and concerts, some organized by a retiree association I signed up for, and participated in some online things related to my pre-retirement non-work activities, and of course kept on with the puzzles etc. As our COVID restrictions gradually loosened somewhat, I got back into exercising (but not the original program which was not among the activities newly permitted to reopen) and have even picked up a new volunteer activity, which seems promising (starting at the bottom, and so far no internal politics at my level, and as an absolute newbie I’m keeping my mouth shut about anything organizational).

      Almost exactly a year after I retired, my former employer was having difficulty filling positions like my former one, and contacted recent retirees to ask them to come back. I declined. So, retirement seems fine, much better than I expected, and I put a lot of that down to not having detailed plans, but going where the fancy led me, and also using leave time to ease into it a bit.

      1. READY TO RETIRE - SORT OF*

        That’s lovely to hear. Several of my friends have serious hobbies/extracurricular activities just waiting for their time. But others tell me retiring was a huge mistake. I’m really exploring volunteering. I don’t want to be too picky yet I have a narrow set of parameters. Like one place I love would be 30-45 minutes one way. I just don’t want to do that. We were fortunate to not have any layoffs at my organization, but had that been necessary – I would have volunteered. And I fully recognize what a luxury it is to be in this position!

    3. Not trying to be rude, just good at it*

      My father worked until he was 68 and only left when admin became unbearable. He walked into management on a Friday and said, “I won’t be back again.” He was miserable for a little bit, but settled into his new life.

      I “quit” at 57 because my employment was going backwards and I decided it was better for me to quit rather then get fired. I had a backup plan in place which has been disrupted by covid, but hopefully I’ll be back to plan B by the end of the summer. My new hobby is dropping off packages for an online portal (think amazon flex) and it’s enough to pay the mortgage.

      A word of advice: hobbies, travel and sleeping late have an expiration date. Find something to keep you happy.

      1. READY TO RETIRE - SORT OF*

        Thanks -that is exactly my worry. Yet I know I’m in a rut and just mindlessly continuing on isn’t the answer either.

    4. StudentA*

      You don’t have to retire. You’re in a fantastic position of being in a job you love that loves you back. Go as long as you want to and your health allows you to.

    5. Girasol*

      People I know volunteer, do hobbies, spend their time out hiking and biking, serve as leaders in local politics, do writing and art work. Some retired people found their own companies or charitable non-profits or consultancies. There are a lot of options. Can you figure out what it is that makes working so great – the people? the purpose? the structure? the challenge? the respect? – and then consider where else you might find the same rewards?

    6. Not So NewReader*

      This is actually a very common problem. We plan out the money side of retirement but don’t plan out the activity side of it.

      It’s a huge topic but retirement itself is actually one day. After that there’s this thing called life.

      Maybe you can open a small business for yourself. Maybe you can do consulting work.

      Never underestimate the power of a daily routine at home. Our routines can and do carry us. Think about what you have been meaning to do but never got around to it.

    7. ronda*

      When I was laid off from my job for the 1st month I was really nervous and thought I needed to be doing something….. but I eventually got over that. I have started following some FIRE blogs and it does seem like many people take ~ 6 months to adjust to the new lifestyle, not having the structure of a job does take some time to get used to.
      I did end up getting another job after being out of work for about 2 years. I quit that job after a couple years because it just took up so much time and I would rather do the things I had gotten used to doing when out of work. I wasn’t doing a lot, but work hours took up so much time that it was hard to do even that little bit of stuff.
      So from my experience if you give it time you will get used to your new situation.

      But if you really think you would be happier staying at work, do stay………. know theyself is important in these situations.

    8. retired*

      76 here; retired since I was 60. I work part time at something different than what I did for work that pays well, keeps my brain going, and is somewhat social. Perfect for telecommuting, so I can do it wherever I am. My observation is that people wither who do not “do” something. I always looked forward to being this age so I could “give back” and do that through volunteering with a grassroots group. I fell into the work and volunteering naturally as they came along; I knew I wanted to retire as soon as I could and hike while I still could. I actually did tell my boss, “No one ever said on their deathbed they wished they’d spent more time at work.” I’ve hiked some places that nothing else could compare with. Now I’m having mobility problems and am grateful for the decisions I made.

  105. Dotty*

    How do you evaluate your reports on their line management skills?

    I am new to heading up a department of 25. I have 4 direct reports who supervise the rest. I find it difficult to get a sense of what they’re like as managers – my gut feeling is one is probably a micromanager. We’re all remote due to COVID-19 which means I don’t have the benefit of seeing the wider team for the watercooler chats/seeing body language/atmosphere etc. 180/360 feedback isn’t done in our organisation.

    1. HR Exec Popping In*

      Here area few things to better understand how good your managers are at leading people:
      – have skip level one-on-one meetings with their direct reports periodically
      – read the performance reviews they write
      – attend one of their staff meetings to observe
      – ask them to tell you how they are developing each person on their team

  106. Ejane*

    My company was acquired at the beginning of the summer, and has been in a gradual transition state ever since. By and large I’ve been able to continue business as usual, but we just got an email that our virtual phone system is changing completely, and at this point I’m like “uh… what the fuck.”

    The organizational system at this job is a disaster. I have a history of being an incredibly high-performing, detail-oriented employee, and for the last month or so I’ve been dragging my feet, struggling to get the basics done because it matters very little. Employees who have gone far beyond the pale in terms of failing to do their jobs correctly are still here, despite being put on probation, we’re cut off from central management… it’s a nightmare.

    I’m also in grad school so I don’t exactly have the bandwidth to switch jobs at the moment. So this is really just me whining. This sucks, but I’m very glad I can work from home and therefore bitch about it while wearing yoga pants and the world’s biggest hoodie.

  107. NeonDreams*

    I’m just tired of overbearing command centers barking at us peons to keep taking calls even when we’ve barely caught our breath from the last one.

    1. CSR by Day*

      Me too. I’ve written about how my employer doesn’t want us to make any notes on customer’s accounts after the call is over. It all has to be documented before the customer hangs up. And you still have to document the call when a customer hangs up on you or when the call is disconnected (like a bad cell phone call from a moving car). We get a constant barrage of criticism for not spending enough time on the phone. When the customer does hang up, you have exactly 8 seconds before the next call comes on. Not even time to take a sip of water.

  108. JustaTech*

    I’d like to put out some praise and appreciation for everyone who does thoughtful document editing.

    Context: I’ve been writing up a report where there are some bits that I just wasn’t sure about, who’s the intended audience? What’s the best way to explain this analysis? So I sent it to my boss (as per usual) and he had some very minor edits, but said for my bigger questions I should send it to our next-boss-up. So I send it off to NBU not expecting much (he’s slow on the turn around and the last bunch of documents I sent him he didn’t have much to say). But two days later I get my report back with a note “I know there are a lot of edits, but it was a good report!”. OK, now I’m worried.
    But lo! NBU had thoughtfully gone through all the sections I said I wasn’t happy with and either just wrote the paragraph I needed, or explained what I needed to add, who the reader would be, and what citations would be useful. It was so, so helpful!
    It’s nice to realize that in industry, unlike school, the writing process is collaborative process and it’s not about finding what’s “wrong” with my report but about making the report better.
    (I’ve had coworkers who loved to tear apart your report like a bad middle school teacher, without saying what they wanted or how to make it better.)

    And it’s not just NBU! I’ve had two other people work on the report and again, helpful and *specific* about their changes. It’s just so nice.

    1. Distractinator*

      Agreed! I love collaborative documents. Speaking as the team lead who sometimes does editing of other peoples stuff, my perspective is often that I was anticipating having to do this from scratch, and to receive a document that’s 90% complete and I just need to do a bit of editing and write the one section that I have a specific goal for, that’s just awesome!

      1. Chaordic One*

        You’re so right about this. I get a lot of stuff back that has unhelpful references to specific policy manuals that I’ve already looked at and that don’t really help. And often, one policy will be contradicted by another in a different part of the same manual.

  109. VT*

    I’ve accepted a new position but due to a number of factors, my start date is about 3.5 weeks away. I tried for a counter offer, which I did not accept, so my director and the managers of my department are aware of my departure. I’m starting to wrap up my work tasks on the sly in anticipation of leaving (my position is unique and there hasn’t been a ton of cross training) but my fellow coworkers are still assigning tasks to me. I won’t be able to finish these tasks before I leave but they don’t know that. I was going to give a standard 2 week notice but now I’m thinking I need to break the news sometime next week. Has anyone done this and really regretted it? Like I said, my manager is aware so I don’t think there will be any weird stuff thrown my way.

    1. PollyQ*

      Given that your manager & higher-ups already know you’re leaving and haven’t yet fired you, I don’t see any harm in letting them know your final date now and asking them how they’d like you to handle the transition. The only reason not to would be if you’d be really hard up financially if they’d let you go immediately, even if that’s a small likelihood. (Yes, you’d be eligible for unemployment, but that doesn’t start immediately, and it may not cover your full salary.)

      1. VT*

        Thank you for your response! I’m union and work public sector so I’m not worried about being let go.

    2. Retired worker bee*

      I don’t understand how, on the one hand, your director and managers know that you’re going to leave the company, but, on the other hand, you haven’t given notice. To whom are you supposed to give notice? Is there any reason you can’t just tell your co-workers that you’ll be leaving? Maybe if it were official that you’re leaving, there would be cross-training.

      1. I need a cool screen name to keep up with this group!*

        I’d be very upfront and add a note to your email signature and out of office reply saying your last day will be xx.

  110. Elmyra Duff*

    My boss has started making flippant comments about how she’s been around SO MANY people with COVID and hasn’t gotten it, so she never will, and now she’s going out to bars with clients and making new employees actually go into our (very, very small WeWork-esque) office and I’m just. so. mad.

    1. Captain Marvel*

      Y I K E S

      Just because she’s never “gotten” it doesn’t mean she hasn’t SPREAD it or wasn’t asymptomatic. Seriously, I question the rationale of some people. So sorry you have to deal with this.

    2. tangerineRose*

      Your boss sounds like someone who has very little sense and/or scientific knowledge. My guess is that she’s one of the semi-lucky ones who was asymptomatic and has probably spread it all over. Sorry you’re having to deal with this.

    3. Dwight Schrute*

      Yeah she’s likely an asymptomatic spreader. My SO and I both got covid over the summer, likely he got it from works, as we weren’t leaving the house to go anywhere else and I work from home. And we both had no clue! Went to drive by testing on a whim since they also offered anti body testing and our tests came back positive, neither of us had any symptoms.

  111. I'm just here for the cats*

    So I’ve been reading this site long enough to have read about co-workers taking over the bathroom for makeup.
    But I was wondering if it’s in bad taste to fix your hair at work bathroom. I’ve been putting my hair in a loose braid before leaving for work. It’s cold and I need to wear a stocking hat. But if I put my hair up I can’t wear a hat. And my hair is too long to keep it down with a hat.
    Then when I get to work I take the braid out and maybe brush my hair and sometimes put it up in a clip or something. I dont have stuff all over the counter or anything. No products except for my pocket brush and maybe a small clip.
    For context I’m usually one of the first in the office, there is limited people in the building. And there are few women in my building on a normal basis let alone with most WFH. I’ve never encountered anyone while doing this.

    1. PollyQ*

      If no one’s even seeing it, and you’re not leaving stray hairs all over everywhere, then you’re fine. Even if there were people around, it sounds like a pretty quick adjustment anyway.

    2. TotesMaGoats*

      You’re fine. A quick brush is not a big deal. Spraying tons of Aqua Net …bigger problems. :)

      1. READY TO RETIRE - SORT OF*

        I agree, if you aren’t hogging the sink space and others can do what they need to do, it’s fine. Very common.

    3. RagingADHD*

      If you aren’t blocking anyone from using the sink, leaving a mess, or creating a chemical fog/stink, you’re completely fine.

      Putting on makeup isn’t actually a problem either – it’s the impact on other people (mess, fumes, blocking access).

    4. SG*

      Omg, you are FINE. Totally fine. If you are not already cleaning up stray hairs afterward from the sink area, that is something you should do if needed. Otherwise, do not give this a second thought.
      Even if it was midday and 4 people saw you doing a quick hair fix in the bathroom, it would still be 100% fine! As long you’re not pulling out your curling iron or something. :)

  112. Vaccine Ethics*

    I work for a company that is considered critical manufacturing/defense, and we’ll be in Tier 1B or 1C in California for the covid vaccine. While others in my company need to go on site, I am able to work from home without an issue (in fact I’d like to continue to WFH most days even after this is all over). When it comes time for 1B or 1C tiers to be vaccinated, I will be eligible to get the vaccine even though I currently work from home.

    It makes me a little uncomfortable to “jump the line” when I don’t need the vaccine the same way my colleagues who work on-site do. However, it seems crazy to decline it when offered (my company is explicitly including the WFH group in the vaccine plans). And honestly the way the vaccine rollout is being managed makes me less confident that if I declined the dose would actually go to someone in greater need. And since my company is expecting us to get it, my manager may want me to start coming into the office occasionally, which I wouldn’t want to do without a vaccine. What would you do?

    1. PollyQ*

      So many doses are going to waste; just get the vaccine if it’s available to you. And I say this as someone who lives in CA, has “underlying conditions,” and wishes she could get the shot sooner. As long as you’re not doing anything underhanded to get the shot, I think you’re fine.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        Yes, this. I would rather see the vaccine go to ANYONE, seriously anyone, than go to waste. If it’s available to you, get it at the first possible time. We need as many people vaccinated as soon as possible.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I work for a big hospital system, but fully remote, and you bet your tail feathers that the day they tell me I can sign up, I will be.

    4. noahwynn*

      At a certain point drilling down the individual employee level and trying to determine which category each employee is in based on very individual factors isn’t really worth the time. It is more important to roll out the vaccine to as many people as possible, as quickly as possible, and trying to hit the high risk groups first whenever possible.

      So I’d say take it when they offer it. I worked for an airline. That means I’m 1B even though I can WFH a lot of the time. I will definitely take the vaccine when offered.

    5. I'm A Little Teapot*

      At this point, the vaccine rollout has been a mess and will probably continue to be a mess. You’re not forcing someone to give you the slot, so just get it. Every person vaccinated helps.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You can’t put this much thought into it. You are told that you have a spot, you should take it! It won’t roll out to someone who needs it any faster because the WFH people opt out.

      This is the time to be selfish. And in return, you’re still helping everyone out. For those who can’t get vaccines yet, we need the available doses to be distributed. The system we have in place is flawed but let’s roll with it and just get the darn virus eradicated!

    7. KR*

      I’m a utility worker in CA, so on a similar tier. They put us on this tier for a reason. Keep in mind even though you’re able to work from home, I’m sure if you got sick and were out for several weeks it would affect your company’s operations somehow which is why you’re included in that tier. Just because you aren’t going to the job site doesn’t mean you wouldn’t catch it some other place (grocery store, pharmacy, delivery driver, so on).

    8. MissDisplaced*

      Honestly, If you are given the legit opportunity and offer to get the vaccination because of your work and/or company, take it when it’s offered and don’t feel guilty about it. That’s not jumping the line.

      I know I’ll have to wait as I’m under 65 and otherwise healthy. Seriously, I’m not mad if others get it if its offered to them. I do get annoyed at the people chartering planes to go to Florida specifically in order to get it earlier than their home state. Vaccination is not supposed to be a tourist trip!

    9. RagingADHD*

      The purpose of the tiered system isn’t about who individually ”
      deserves what. Everybody needs it, everybody deserves it!

      It’s logistical, to organize groups of people in a somewhat rational priority and roll it out as fast as possible. Everyone who isn’t vaccinated is a disease vector. Do your part to shut the virus down.

      Take your turn and keep the line moving. That is the most helpful thing you can do.

  113. clover*

    Any recommendations for resources/books/online classes for learning Python programming language for beginners? Focused towards data science/analytics usage.

    Most of my informational interviews point to python as the main language they or their colleagues are learning/using. So, I’d like to start learning the basics at least.

    I’ve looked at some edx and coursera courses, but it seems like half of the lesson material is locked behind a paygate and I’m unsure about how useful the courses are.

    1. PollyQ*

      W3C Schools has great, self-guided online tutorials that would get you started, including “sandboxes” where you can try out various commands.

      Link: https://www.w3schools.com/python/

      I haven’t used it myself, but I’ve always found Safari’s books to be excellent, so you might check out Learning Python, 5th edition, by Mark Lutz.

      1. PollyQ*

        (I should’ve said O’Reilly, instead of Safari. That was their old online book site, but it’s since changed names.)

      2. GreyNerdShark*

        I did the previous (python2) version of https://www.py4e.com as part of a free coursera trial and found it very good. The website has graded assignments and all, and it is free. Videos, a book, discussion fora the lot.

        I had some forced leave so I powered through the lot in a week… and used it to write a user management system at work

    2. AnonPi*

      If you don’t mind paying a little, I’ve taken some courses on Udemy for other things (namely project management related). But they have a ton of computer/programming classes – just be sure to look at reviews before purchasing. Udemy often has sales to get classes for about $11-14 so don’t pay full price.

      And this reddit thread may have some good info
      https://www.reddit.com/r/learnpython/wiki/index

      And python.org’s wiki of beginners stuff
      https://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/Programmers

      When I had intensions of learning python I believe python.org was the place recommended to me by several people (it’s been awhile, but I’m pretty sure that’s it). Of course I got distracted with other things and didn’t get too far, lol Good luck!

    3. RosenGilMom*

      My local community college offers a Python online learning course (in addition to lots of others). Not free, priced at around $100 based on whether you did it independently or instructor-led. So that could be a resource.

  114. Raldeme*

    How do you do weeks when everything sucks. I just had a crappy week at work where I was put on a new fast moving contract at the same time that I finally put my foot down about a teammate bullying me (because the bullying behavior accelerated). Boss, grand boss, and that dude’s boss all got involved, and were supportive, but it’s still draining.

    Now a key meeting for a deliverable I was pumped about was rescheduled for a week and I’m so burned out. I would take PTO but since I just started this new contract I don’t want to be flaky.

    1. Dasein9*

      Truth? Carbs.

      The healthier options work too, so also taking walks and making sure to find something to enjoy about being at work and getting enough sleep really do work.

      Sorry you had a sucky week and hope next week is better.

    2. Working mom*

      Remember the bigger picture. Your life isn’t all about your job, so I would lean towards doing something that reminds you of why you’re working.
      If all else fails, a few cocktails help.

  115. hack in training*

    Hi everyone! A little late to this thread but hoping someone sees it:
    I’m in the process of getting my first full-time job (I’ve had internships but not a real, full-time, adult job) and I was just told by one hiring manager that they’ve put in a request to HR to make me an offer. He’s checked my references himself but said corporate HR does a more formal background check, which makes sense. I don’t anticipate any issues popping up, but can someone with more life experience tell me generally how long something like this would take? Obviously it’s a Friday and I just heard this morning, so I don’t expect anything until mid-late next week at the earliest, but generally when should I expect to hear more? (Also, does that mean I’m getting offered the job as long as nothing crazy comes up on a background check?)

    1. Reba*

      I would think late next week would still be pretty early, but it can be really variable depending on the company they use and what exactly is in the scope of the check. If you have a complicated life history that can also take more time. Then it has to come back to HR, they have to formulate the offer and any paperwork, etc. etc.

      (That does sound like it to me! But remember that anything can happen before you actually have the offer in hand, even beyond the background check. Congrats.)

    2. Pond*

      How long a background check takes also depends on who is doing it and what they are checking. There is a whole range from companies who don’t check anything to the US federal government which can take months or even over a year.
      I would wait 3 weeks before following up, as you might get news sooner or their processes (whether internal or with an external background check company) could take longer.
      As Reba mentioned, it sounds like they want to give you an offer, but any number of things preventing an offer could happen that have nothing to do with you, so don’t count on it.

  116. Anonollama*

    How suspicious would you be in my situation?
    Scenario: COVID unsafe workplace has exacerbated existing health issues. Bosses are denying the issues and gaslighting employees about workplace safety. I requested a wfh accommodation which required releasing some (limited) medical info. Got denied but even after asking they wouldn’t give any clear reasons why. Requested unpaid medical leave and was approved. Now bosses are asking for contact info for docs because they have “another medical package to send out”. No explanation what purpose this package serves or why they need more of my medical info at this point. I’ve already contacted my doctor’s office revoking previous permissions and letting them know that any further requests for records or info must be individually approved by me. Am I just overly cynical or paranoid to not trust this request?

    1. Reba*

      Have you asked about the “medical package” (???) and been refused? Or you are just worried about the whole situation and don’t want to ask?

      Your employer does not have the right to speak to your doctor about your medical history/condition without your permission. They *can* verify that a note from the doctor really came from the doctor (i.e. that you did not fake the note). However, even in that case they cannot ask for more details about your medical condition. So if this is like a form for the doctor, well, they can ask but I believe it would be against the law for your doctor to fill it out. IANAL.

      Sorry you are dealing with this

      1. Anonollama*

        Not yet. I’m waiting to speak to someone in my union about it. I plan to reply and ask what the package is for but my bosses have been extremely cagey with info these days so not sure how much of a straight answer I’ll get.

        The main reason I posted was because I was worried that my current cynicism and frustration might be making me overly suspicious about their motives in trying to get more medical info from my doctor. (To be a bit more blunt, I am concerned they might be using the access they obtained from my accommodation request to go fishing for excuses as to why my health issues aren’t their fault or to justify claiming I can’t do my job so they can get rid of me. And even writing that out feels cynical to me but they have already negatively surprised me multiple times this past year with their bad behaviour so…?)

        1. Gumby*

          I don’t know if you are being paranoid or not since I don’t know your employer. But it does not matter. They are in no way entitled to any of your personal medical information. In fact, your doctor should have explained the first time that the only thing your work needed was a note that said: “These are the accommodations Anonollama needs for medical reasons: A, B, C.” The end. They don’t get to know why or what causes the need or any other details.

          Also, just because you allowed the sharing of details before does not mean you need to continue to allow it. If they ask, you don’t even have to say you don’t trust them. Just, “I realized after the last accommodation request process that I shared HIPPA-protected information and there was no need to do so. Going forward I will not be sharing private medical information.” Or something like that. A polite way of telling them to stop being nosey and follow the rules. And if they try to convince you it is required? Push back. If necessary get legal advice. I suspect if you were in one of the few edge cases where sharing such info is required, you would already know.

  117. Nervous*

    I have a situation that I can really use some guidance on. Alison has answered a few questions like it but mine is slightly different. I recently started a job that I am very much enjoying. I was hired to replace an employee who left the firm. Well, now she’s back. I do not think that any of the issues that drove her to leave have been addressed (from what I understand she wanted to work from home but she’s not at this point and I do not think that will happen). Anyway I was given the impression that the firm needed two employees to do the job, except right now it doesn’t seem that way. I am not sure if things will change but right now I do not feel like I am doing what I was hired for and am nervous as to what to do about it. How do I bring this up with that “supervisor” what is a good way to address my concerns as I am worried they will let me go even though if they really do need two people it will take a while for anyone new to be up to pace (I am still not up to pace as I just started). What should I do?

    1. Annabeth Nass*

      I don’t think I would ask. I’d just focus on doing the best job I could and assume that the supervisor will figure out what to do with the rehired employee.

  118. The Man, Becky Lynch*

    It’s interesting the variety of definitions of “professionalism”.

    Is warning someone that an override in a policy is a courtesy and done at someone’s discretion given the situation unprofessional in your professional opinions?

    I think it’s more respectful and professional to lay out what you expect from someone and the consequences, especially when you’re escalating something from the “since you ignored the previous reminders, now there are consequences.”

    [I got tone-policed by a client. They even then asked for my manager, which was cute that they tried because everyone already knew what was going on. And they refused to acknowledge that what got the heated response was being told that giving someone a warning, instead of I guess, just pulling the plug after the no-response nonsense continued was unprofessional and it was more important to chastise me about being unprofessional than just doing the task at hand, that literally had the entire system blocked up at that time because of their non-response issues. Go figure.]

    1. Not So NewReader*

      If I am getting this a client wants some one fired because someone did not answer the client’s call/email?

      If yes, I think the client needs to be fired.

  119. Anon for this, leaving soon*

    I am leaving my company soon for personal reasons and gave several months notice but I’m finding myself wanting to just leave now. I think I’m at BEC stage with the whole damn job. But I need the money and I need a good reference so I don’t want to leave my team in a bind. There’s just so much work they’re expecting me to do right the flip now and it’s too much for one person in the middle of a pandemic, so I’m finding myself shutting down and not getting anything done because I know I can’t get some of it done. I’m just so annoyed and I want to be done with this. Does anyone have any ideas for keeping the focus all the way till the end, or a pep talk?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve been in this position a couple times before [without a pandemic, thank God.]

      I learned from my first mistake, I ended up ghosting my former employer for awhile. It didn’t actually harm me because we were such a special relationship but I did feel the need to apologize profusely when I stopped being a turd about it all.

      Self care is important. You are on your way out, you can only give them what you have the energy for. So even if they’re expecting you to do it all right frigging now, you just don’t do it. Continue at your sustainable pace. And if they say something, let them know that it’s because you physically cannot handle the load in the time frame they have laid out.

      My suggestion is to say “I want to do all I can in my transition but there are only so many hours in the day that I can dedicate to you. I appreciate you and this company, I am giving you my 100%, I simply can’t do more than this.” That’s only if they bring it up. A LOT of this pressure is internalized and your own dialog, at least it was for me!!!

      1. Anon for this, leaving soon*

        Thank you so much. I think part of it that I’ve been struggling due to the insane workload so I already am behind on a lot that was supposed to happen during the course of the last year. But you’re right that I can only do what I can do, and there’s no getting around it

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Continue to remind yourself this is almost the end of the race. I like the countdown idea. That always helped me. When you’re overwhelmed, you can remind yourself that this isn’t forver, this is only until 28 more days, etc.

          And also try to plan out your days and prioritize the best possible to lessen the impact of the workload. And ask them what their priorities are, if they say “everything is important!” tell them that you understand it’s important but in reality, you have X months left and want to know what their actual list of priorities are. They have to do some of the work and be actively working towards a time that you are no longer working there.

    2. WellRed*

      You can’t get any more done than is physically possible. Prioritize in the same way if you weren’t leaving, just struggling with a heavy workload. Explain what you can do and ask if they want a or b. Finally, feel free to put up a big wall calendar and cross off the days till the end!

      1. Anon for this, leaving soon*

        I might do a big wall calendar!! I’m already really happy that I won’t have to deal with this in a few more months, counting down can’t hurt. Thank you so much

  120. GreenTea*

    I feel like I have been a victim of a bait & switch and I’m not sure what to do …

    I was laid off in early spring 2020 due to the pandemic. The job I was laid off from (A) was a contract position that was in the middle of going full time when pretty much everything was axed. I left on good terms with my team. I kept in touch with my network, and my boss from my first job out of school (B) reached out and offered me a position (basically what I had been doing before I went to A). I left B after a year because I was grossly underpaid, benefits were not anything to write home about, and the industry was boring. They were pretty sad to see me go, and very excited when they found out I was unemployed. I was offered a job at $13k less than what I had been making at B, but with bills to pay, I accepted. My boss made a point to say that they could re-evaluate my salary in 6-12 months.

    Flash forward to a few weeks ago when I decided to bring up salary to my boss. I was told verbatim: “I am not prepared for this conversation, our budgets have been finalized for 2021, and if you wanted a raise we would have to start planning in September for justifications for the 2022 budget.” I was absolutely gobsmacked at this and didn’t really know what to say. Nevermind they do not offer cost of living raises, so I would essentially be working at the same salary for nearly 2 years without any change in my salary. I was so upset, and immediately began casually looking for new jobs.

    THEN, a week or so later, one of my managers from A reached out and said there had been a major re-org and they were looking to hire an FTE with my skillset. I immediately applied for the position and am very hopeful they decide to hire me. It doesn’t help that the salary is at least 20k higher than what I’m making now!

    My dilemma is – when I came back to B, they told me that they wanted me to stay for a while, and not just work there until something better came along. However, I no longer feel they held up their end of the deal, and I do not believe I owe them anything. To make things worse, my co-worker is about to go on leave, and I was just roped into a few big projects. Am I an a-hole for trying to leave right now?

    1. Ins mom*

      They told you to reevaluate in 6-12 months but now blew you off on the topic. As long as job B is stable, you need to do whatever you find best. You are not the one who is an “a”

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      First of all, you’re never an a-hole for leaving a job for greener pastures. Second, they are the a-holes for not living up to their promise. Is there any possibility of going back to your boss and reminding her what she said about revisiting your salary? It’s likely she’ll say you have to wait til September but at least she’ll know you didn’t forget, and maybe she’ll be able to do something to make it up to you.

    3. Gumby*

      If they wanted you to stay for a while, they should have treated you like they want you to stay for a while. Underpaying you says, “we’d like you to stay but can’t be bothered to actually *do* anything to make this job attractive to you.” Just saying the words means nothing.

      1. D3*

        Honestly, this says it so well that if you boss says ANYTHING about how they expected you to stay for a while, you could respond with:
        “If you wanted me to stay for a while, you should have treated me like you want me to stay for a while. Broken promises and lousy pay showed me you don’t value my continued employment.”

    4. CatCat*

      Absolutely not the a-hole. They didn’t hold up their end of the deal. If they really wanted to retain you, they would have. Not even an a-hole if they did hold up their end of the deal. Aren’t we all working somewhere until something better comes along?

      They basically want the benefits, but not the downside of at-will employment. (Let you go whenever whenever is a benefit for them, but downside for them is your free to go on your merry way whenever you want.) They needed to try harder to incentivize you to stay in an at-will situation or offer an employment contract with good terms. They did neither.

    5. Nacho*

      You don’t owe your job anything, and that would still be true even if they didn’t screw you over. If you’ve got a better offer, take it.

    6. Maggie*

      You’re not an A-hole at all and its laughable that they told you that and then offered you 13k less than when you didnt make very much.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Eh, if they wanted you there in 2022 (or 2021 for that matter) then they should have planned for that last September and put it in the budget. But they chose not to.
      s/For them, too bad, how sad. Bye-bye./s

      You owe them nothing/zip/zilch/nada.

    8. RagingADHD*

      You’re always allowed to leave. But I’m not sure that they really did you wrong.

      You were hired at B sometime in the spring of 2020, and told they could re-evaluate salary in “6-12 months.”

      They didn’t promise you would have a raise within the first year, but you seem to have interpreted it that way. If they re-evaluate your salary this spring (which would be 12 months) and include a raise in the budget planning this September, that is still entirely consistent with what you were told.

      You don’t like it, and you aren’t beholden to stay if you get a better offer, but they didn’t lie.

    9. MissDisplaced*

      Regarding the raise, well, many companies are struggling and the Pandemic is throwing off salaries and budgets. To be fair, your boss may not have known this when they made that promise.

      Here’s the thing: Do what takes care of YOU.
      If you need a higher salary, go for the place that pays a higher salary. But if you do elect to go back to A, I would not go back for another contract job, make sure it’s a full time position.
      Otherwise, keep up your search to find the right fit. There’s no such thing as “job loyalty,” it’s just business.

    10. PX*

      While I agree you should do what works for you, I don’t really see this as a bait and switch. Re-evaluate does not mean raise. It means re-evaluate, as in, review and see if it is still appropriate. The company may have realised that they can’t afford to pay more, and thus for them, it was still appropriate.

  121. By your poster*

    I work from home in a stressful job. I have a lot of PTSD from bad bosses (including one who talked with my co-workers about whether or not she’d have sex with me, and said she was taking steps to get me fired when I confronted her.)

    My current boss is not an empath, but she is kind and driven and has already helped me become better at my job. The problem is that when we have meetings on Zoom, I am never able to get out more than a sentence or two without her reacting and cutting me off (she cuts to the chase quickly, while I am more analytical and take longer to get to my point).

    This leads to a recurring cycle: My head starts spinning because I haven’t been able to get my point out, then I try to respond to her mis-assumptions about my point while trying to get the conversation back on the rails. I leave the conversation frustrated, and she leaves the conversation frustrated because I always seem frustrated.

    So what is my best course of action here? She hasn’t been my boss for very long, and tends to be defensive if you give her feedback? Should I just deal with it and let it roll off? Try to bring it up anyway? Adjust the way I talk when I speak to her?

    1. Nynaeve*

      I think you can try a few things. In the moment, if she interrupts, you can say, “Excuse me/sorry/hang on, I actually wasn’t finished with my point” and then wrap it up as quickly as you can – try giving her the bottom line up front and ask if extra context would be helpful. If she is moving on too quickly, jot down your point quickly so you don’t forget it and then pay attention to what she’s saying. When there’s a pause in the conversation, say something like, “I actually wanted to circle back to point X” or “I’d like to clarify something about Y, which we were discussing earlier.” That way you remove some of the defensiveness and fear that you’re not going to get to express your points.

      If you try this, but the pattern is still a problem and you feel like you’re not being heard/being dismissed, you can try bringing up a larger pattern of feedback. You might have better luck framing it as a weird quirk about you rather than as something she’s doing wrong, like, “I appreciate that you’re very to-the-point, but I tend to be more analytical and need to provide more context. Can we add a little more verbal processing time to the conversation so there’s not as much back-and-forth?” Maybe you can even have a semi-humorous code word for “hey boss, you’re interrupting me again” or “hey By your poster, get to the point already.”

      Also, it’s probably not personal on your boss’s end! She may just be so excited by her own train of thought that she is forgetting to make space for other people. Which is rude, to be clear! But having a good interplay of conversation is a learned skill and not everyone has developed that skill. Assume first that she’s not being purposefully dismissive, just magpie-minded and a little inconsiderate, and see if that takes some of the sting out of it for you.

      Best of luck! Let us know how it all goes. Hope others have some good tips for you too.

    4. SG*

      My boss does this a bit, but only intermittently so it’s not as big an issue. However, my boss is able to take feedback and have candid conversations without taking things personally, so that is helpful.
      This seems to be a habitual communication style that probably impacts her communicaiton with others too, and most likely isn’t personal. The only thing that is going to help is to have a candid conversation with her. I would suggest you approach it as a question — make it about your own actions, not hers, for two reasons: 1) You can only control your own actions and can’t change how she is doing things. 2) If you frame it as a question about your own actions and ask for suggestions, she is unlikely to react defensively and more likely to want to help solve the problem collaboratively, like any other work-related problem.
      Bring it up during your normal check-in meeting if possible. Here is one script: “Can I talk to you about something? I’d love have a candid conversation with you about our communication style in our meetings.” (Or: “Can I ask you a question about our meeting format and how I could improve my communication style in our meetings?”)
      And then just lay out the problem, acknowledging that you’ve perceived some frustration on her end (which, of course, you want to help resolve). And start with this: “If it’s okay, I’d really appreciate if you could let me finish what I want to tell without without interruption, as I’ve thought carefully about this and don’t want to lose my train of thought midstream!”
      Then hopefully she will let you explain the problem without interrupting you!
      You mentioned that your boss “is kind and driven and has already helped me become better at my job,” so you could lead with that: “First, I want to say how much I appreciate your leadership, especially your kindness and how much you’ve invested in helping me become better at my job! But during our 1:1 meetings, I sometimes sense some frustration from you, and I want to make sure there isn’t something I could be doing differently in how I communicate during our meetings. It seems like when I want to say something or make a point, you tend to jump in before I finish, and you think you know what I’m going to say, so I don’t get a chance to finish my thought, which is often not what you assumed it was. When I try to explain or clarify afterward, I tend to sense some frustration from you, which isn’t my intention! Is there anything I can do differently during our meetings to help mitigate this situation and improve our communication?”
      And then just stop talking, and give her time to process and respond, and listen carefully to what she has to say. This isn’t going to be resolved in one conversation, but you can check in with her periodically and try to chip away at it. But having an open, honest conversation with her is the only way you might resolve this issue. Hopefully it will draw her attention to the need to let you finish your thoughts, and she may have some pointers as to how you can meet her halfway so that both of your needs are met. Good luck!

    5. RagingADHD*

      Can you just use some polite phrases to indicate “Hey, slow down?”

      Bear with me here…
      Now, hear me out…
      Can we circle back a second…

      You don’t have to get sidetracked just because she’s jumping the gun, and you don’t have to match her pace. Pause, wait for her to finish, and then go back to what you were trying to say.

      Don’t try to unravel the misinterpretation, that’s leading you astray. You can say, “No, I was going somewhere different.” And then go ahead to your original point.

      I generally find that these type of communication style differences are better addressed organically in the moment, rather than in a big overarching conversation. If she’s a rapid-fire type person, you won’t get very far asking her to alter her whole mode of conversation.

      Better to develop a dynamic between you that is sustainable.

    6. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      Without judging you, this question did remind me of a dynamic I have with one of my direct reports, who is a much slower talker than me and generally more roundabout. I also am super busy and have more on my plate than she does. I am not judging her either – I have to remind myself that I am her boss and our one on ones are more important to her than to me. I have coached her on starting off meetings with stating the agenda and the time frame, to keep “everyone” (her) on track, but ultimately we have different styles and different schedules. All that said, you have insight here about your “kind” boss – she cuts to the chase quickly! That can be a good thing if you don’t need her to be your sounding board about how you got to your recommendation. Maybe you have another colleague you can spend advance time with working out your key points? Your boss is telling you – albeit perhaps rudely (and for the record, I do not cut my longwinded employee off) – that she needs you to be more concise in your meetings with her.

  122. KoiFeeder*

    Update on good vibes requested last week:
    There is a solid chance that something will be arranged to allow me to fulfill class requirements without attending this class because the teacher is creeping ever closer to the hostility line. The school disability officer is not having with this and will not subject me to a toxic environment for class credits, and does not have confidence that said teacher will behave even if a disability staff member is assigned for babysitting purposes.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I am glad you have good backing.
      Not the same, but I had a class once where the prof could see I was just wasting my time due to the make up of the group. (College adults behaving like high school. Prof had no ability to control the classroom.) The prof let me do an independent study and that went very well. I am sure things will go much better for you with your new plan.

  123. Anonandon*

    So my organization opened a branch office I’ll call Utica. The folks in Utica had a function that was only kinda sorta related to our main business. But I thought they were cool I frequently collaborated with them. I even attended training so I could work with Utica more often.

    Then Covid hit and we stopped collaborating so much. Eventually my boss dropped a bombshell. Those guys in Utica HATE me. They were already complaining about me even before I took the training, for reasons I don’t even understand, and apparently I wasn’t welcome to train or collaborate with them anymore. I was stunned.

    I was interested in their work and I thought they liked me. And what really hurt was that they would call my boss to complain about me but they wouldn’t say anything to my face. Like, I’m in your training class, right? So if I’m doing something wrong I would expect them to TELL ME so I can correct the problem. Right? Isn’t that how it is supposed to work.

    Oh well. Time passed. Covid got worse, and we had less contact with Utica. Just as well, because I wasn’t welcome in their club. I got over it, mostly.

    Then today came.

    My Grandboss handed me a new assignment: Do an assessment of the Utica branch and determine whether we should keep funding their operation.

    I tried to be professional and impartial in my assessment.

    Tried.

    2. Llama face!*

      So my first thought when reading this is: How reliable of a narrator is your boss?
      Since it seems like you never had any direct communication about this with Utica branch and they gave off no obvious indications that you really were unwelcome, is there any likelihood that your boss wanted you to back off Utica stuff and made them a scapegoat for that purpose? I have run into passive agressive people who were really that bad at being honest about their feelings but usually there are indicators even if just in hindsight.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I had a boss who got their jollies telling me that this one or that one hated me.
      Yeah, so?

      Utica might be a problem, but your boss might be an even bigger problem.
      One clue could be if you got along with Utica and your boss did not. A set up like this would cause my boss to tell me that the person I got along with hated me.

      If you boss ever tells you something like this again, you can go with, “I am so sorry to hear that. I actually like Sue as a person and a professional. I think she and I should sit down and talk things through. YOU can mediate.”
      If I am correct in my suspicions your boss will start some HARD backpedalling.

        1. pancakes*

          I thought so too. The narrative from the boss sounds weirdly and inappropriately personal, and unlikely, too. I can’t imagine calling a coworker’s boss to tell them I hate them, not because I haven’t ever had coworkers I strongly disliked but because that’s such a strange and gossip-y thing to do.

    4. Faux Fur*

      I was in a situation like this. But it was a coworker, not my boss, who told me me a couple of former coworkers had blamed some things on me. I wish SO MUCH I had called those former coworkers and told them what my current coworker said. I’m sure they would have denied her accusations. But if they HAD really blamed things on me they would feel uncomfortable. And if they hadn’t then they would know not to trust my current coworker.
      And I would tell my current coworker that I had called them. Maybe that would stop her tattling.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      It’s kind of hard to tell not knowing the nature of your work, but how trustworthy is your boss?
      Because it sort of sounds like your boss was setting you up to be a fall guy in regard to Utica.

      Is there anyone at Utica you feel you could give you honesty? IDK I just get some bad vibes that you were put into the middle of something you shouldn’t have been put into. Or, Utica truly IS that bad (which should show in other ways if true).

  124. Anonandon*

    We’re being pressured to put pronouns in our email signatures.

    I’m not trans but not fully binary. I don’t feel the need to be “out” about it, it’s not safe to do so in many aspects of my life, and this is not a conversation I want to have at work.

    My office culture is moderate – starting to take steps towards being more progressive, but lacking true diversity. Most staff have added their pronouns. They’re all binary so far…

    I can “tolerate” the pronouns for my gender assigned at birth, but don’t want to endorse or emphasize them, especially since being anything but a white male is looked down on in my field.

    I’m leaving off pronouns for now and paying the consequence of not participating in performative allyship.

    Ideally, I’d like to participate, but there isn’t room in an email signature to explain that gender is a social construct, I’d rather you focus on my awesome work talent instead of your perception of my gender/appearance, and this is still not a conversation I want to have at work.

    Has anyone been in a similar situation or have ideas for what else I could list in the pronoun section that would preserve my dignity while remaining professional?

    2. Maggie*

      This is happening at my work too but it hasn’t been formally requested by Human Resources or my direct manager so I haven’t done it yet for a similar reason that you list. I am cis and perfectly comfortable with she/her pronouns but I don’t want to put people on the spot who are unsure/questioning/not out/anything else. I guess I feel weird because I feel like sometimes in our quest to be allies we aren’t remembering that not everyone is out and comfortable and wanting to share that stuff. Ive never seen anyone have pronouns in their signature that didnt 100% line up with what you’d expect so sometimes it just feels like virtue signaling to me.

    3. RagingADHD*

      I’ve seen people use their AAB pronouns alongside they/them to indicate that any of those listed are fine. Like:
      “she/her/they/them” or “he/him/they/them”

      It seems like a common default for people who are doing it to be inclusive but don’t really have a strong preference — which sounds like the impression you want to convey under the circumstances.

    4. LGC*

      …oh man, I totally hear your viewpoint.

      So, I have no real advice (filthy cis male here), but would you be willing to do “he/they” or “she/they”? Those constructions seem the least outing – I’ve seen people use those where they’re both NB but tolerant of binary pronouns (like you seem to be) and when they’re binary but willing to show they’re not fully all in on it (or that they’re allies). Plus, it demonstrates participation.

      1. Anonandon ( the other one)*

        Thanks all. Interesting thought LLC, though we’re a small enough department that I’d probably still have to explain it or get “I’m so proud of you for coming out/sorry I didn’t know before” type messages which I don’t have the energy to deal with and comfort people about.

        I was thinking about this some more and wish it wasn’t unprofessional to just say my pronouns are “meh.” :)

        I feel weird about external clients too, I’d be more ok with my coworkers but not having to explain stuff to random vendors or salespeople, clients, etc.

        This is a little bit like how I deal with my name. It’s difficult for most Americans to pronounce, and I’ve always cringed when people put how to pronounce their names in email signatures, too. It is nice being addressed properly, but it’s also nice having it as a way to weed out insincere jerks. I can easily spot a cold sales call, for example.

    5. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      Boring cis female here. I recently added pronouns to my email signature which is probably virtue signaling but also hopefully (by the standards of my staid organization) opens a door to at least awareness on the part of my cis colleagues. Some of my team also started doing this after I mentioned I was doing it, in a staff meeting. I made a point of telling my boss I was doing it, not that he has changed his cis behavior. I have also seen recently in a consulting firm we work a lot with, a couple of different staff added “no pronouns/say my name” to their signature which I found striking and maybe an option for where you want to take this for yourself.

  125. Navigating Conflicts*

    Is there a difference to how you should deal with these two types of workplace conflicts:

    a) A coworker who has a bad attitude towards you, but it is not affecting the flow of your work process.

    b) A coworker who always delays in getting back at you on work inquiries and requests, and it is slowing your work flow.

    For b) I understand that first we need to deal with it on our own first by speaking with the problem coworker directly. For a) I guess you could try to talk-back at them for being so rude.

    But if saying something on your own doesn’t work, will this be the time to ask my manager/supervisor for advice on how to deal? But I think that would be more appropriate for situation b).

    When should you let HR know if talking to your manager doesn’t solve the issue with the problem coworker?

    1. Weekend Please*

      B is a lot easier. You can focus on the effect is is having on your work. After addressing it with them directly, I think you can bring it to your supervisor the next time it happens.

      A is harder. It really depends on what you mean by “bad attitude.” Do you mean not friendly (doesn’t chat or say hi to you in the morning, acts cold, etc.) or do you mean actively rude/hostile (name calling, speaking over you, badmouthing you to other coworkers, rolling eyes when you talk)? It also depends on your relationship with your supervisor. I do think that if they are actively rude or hostile you should speak to your supervisor (possibly before addressing them alone since that generally goes poorly) but if they are more unfriendly than rude or hostile, I would probably keep it to myself unless I trusted my supervisor to give me good advice on how to handle it.

    2. pancakes*

      I think being polite in scenario a) is vastly preferable to trying to match the coworker’s rudeness with “talking back.” The latter seems more likely to escalate the conflict than diffuse it, and being rude in return runs the risk of needlessly harming your own reputation at work.

  126. Ineverrememebermynick*

    Any leads on posts or any idea how to go about the situation where you would be interviewed by the same person for another position? Let’s say you applied for Position A with the boss being Mr A and one of the interviews was with a peer of Mr A, Mrs B, and now you would like to apply for Position B and you would have to be interviewed by Mrs B as the hiring manager. I am thinking even that the hiring manager-peer interview could be with Mr A too.

    I more or less see how I can make a case for applying in the cover letter, but in the interview I feel I might sound dishonest showing the same level of interest (even thought I might have even more) as I had for Position A. Is this a situation of better letting it go? I don’t plan to apply in a while but Position B is very interesting and the company is great. It might not be available again but I expect that exact new ones will be open soon as it is a growing business. Even if I let time pass, let’s say 4-5 months, my name is very particular so it would definitely ring a bell and even if they don’t have applying history they can find in their agendas that I was scheduled time ago for an interview for Position A.

    I feel like it is not the best idea to apply…

  127. Amethystmoon*

    We have undergone a minor reorg at work and now have a new team. Thinking that I may be finally able to convince the coworker who is not retiring to give up paper files, at least for what I do. The coworker who is retiring will be leaving in the spring.

    1. Juneybug*

      Few suggestions about going paperless –
      1. Take the lead on the paperless project by creating cheat sheets on scanning and naming files/folders.
      2. Emphasize how everyone on the team can access the info on the shared drives, instead of paper.
      3. Start doing your workflow/tasks paperless and act like that is the new norm.
      Good luck!

  128. Puppy!*

    Things are fine with the pup but…
    I am failing crate training. So we might give up on that. She sleeps in her pen at night but she is growing and that won’t hold her if we are gone for an hour or so.

    I want to get a gate for the kitchen to prevent her from going anywhere else. (no door to foyer/ stairs to upstairs)
    Plastic ones are super ugly. Would like wood. Saw some on Orvis.
    Puppy people- any recommendations on brand or style. the doorway is 32 inches.

  129. Plexiglass Cubicles*

    I had been working almost exclusively from home even before the pandemic hit as part of an industry that is often WFH anyway. So I considered myself very fortunate to be able to continue WFH and almost completely isolate myself from exposure to COVID from the time it first hit until last week. Now, however, I am in a new position with the same organization and will WFH some days and work in the office some days. As an obese middle-aged person with more than one preexisting condition, I am kind of nervous about this. It’s a big change for me.

    Vaccination will probably not be available to me anytime soon. When appointments become available in my state, they are snapped up immediately. The office I will be in is very large with plenty of space for us to keep a distance. The spaces are cleaned regularly and safety is encouraged and fostered. They are staggering shifts so the bathrooms and break room don’t get crowded, they encourage staying home and being honest if you’ve been exposed, masks are required, etc. So I do feel somewhat okay about it, and there are no customers onsite or crowded spaces/close contact like grocery store workers and health care workers experience.

    I just keep thinking that there must be additional tips out there and hoping we could share them here. Any masks that are comfortable yet protective for a full day at work? How many times a day do you wash your hands? (I’m being strict about washing my hands before eating.) No heat, no microwave, no fridge lunch ideas?

    1. LGC*

      1) I’ve found that disposable surgical-style masks are pretty comfortable for daily wear. It really depends, though – do you wear glasses? If you do, straps become super important – I’m a bit more partial to headbands (that go around the back of your head), but over-ears can be comfortable depending on how they’re designed.

      2) Yes, you should be VERY strict about washing your hands! (I mean, you should be in general.) You probably don’t need to change your eating habits to no-fridge or no-heat – COVID isn’t a super-virus that’s immune to everything, and it’s not even on the same level as norovirus (where if you come in contact with like 10 virus particles, you can be infected). What I’ve done, though, is generally eat far away from others, since that’s when I have my mask off.

      3) If it’s possible (you’re in an office with windows that open, which is a luxury I had, and you’re in an area where it’s warm enough to open windows): crack the windows open. A probable factor in transmission is how often the air is circulated through.

      4) Check what the exposure/isolation policy is! Honestly, the cleaning is sanitation theater, in my opinion – the COVID-19 virus probably doesn’t have fomites as a major vector. (I mean, cleaning is good! But unless you work in a medical center, it’s not going to do that much to prevent COVID spread.) Do they mandate that you stay home if you’ve reported an exposure? Do they allow you to WFH or pay for your time off? (The answers seem like “yes,” but it’s good to check.)

  130. Riding a Bike on Fire*

    I apologize for bringing up something that’s probably been covered a lot but – what advice do you all have on creating a sustainable system for applying to jobs? I need guidance on developing a long-term strategy to leave my first full-time field job because after 7+ years of working here, I can tell the company and boss are not good fits anymore and it’s been severely taxing to my mental and physical health to keep trying to make this job work. I’ve tried every avenue to make things change, up to and including handing in my resignation letter and then getting promised x and y would change and getting coaxed into staying on. This has happened three times – twice, I was prepared to leave with nothing lined up and the third time I had an offer for a job I realized was an even worse fit for me. And over time things just go back to the mess they were. I don’t want to talk too much about what makes it so bad, except that I will say it’s helped me generate a lot of thoughts about the kind of place I want to work and the type of person I want to work for. Think half “my boss sucks and will never change” and half “I’m just not the type of person who can meet the expectations laid on me anymore.”

    I feel like my job searching is too reactive – I have a bad/overwhelming week at work, it leads to a meltdown, and then I respond to the meltdown by scattershot applying for anything that can possibly work. Of course, this approach has led to very few interviews, and why would it? I usually rush cover letters, if I do them at all, and I don’t take enough time to tailor my resume to each position.

    I’ve realized I fall into this because I’m doing it right now, and my last therapist also saw the pattern and recommended I try to develop some kind of system. He suggested one job per week, but I don’t feel like that’ll be productive enough and I don’t know how much more I can take here. 5+ is probably too ambitious, and in the past when I’ve applied to that many in a week too many of them were massive stretches, Maybe 3 per week?

    So, readers, any advice on what a system for job searching should look like? Any good books? I’m open to buying any, especially Alison’s, if they have helpful advice on building a job-hunting system. My goal is to be able to spend x amount of time per week applying to y jobs, and to do it in a way that I feel happy with my process regardless of how many interviews it leads to. Ultimately, I want to get an interview, get a good offer in pocket, and then tell my boss I’m leaving in 2 weeks and that’s final.

    So what types of things work for you in developing a system? I welcome all feedback, and again, apologize for covering familiar ground – as I typed this, I realized that part of me just needs to vent out how frustrated I am in addition to figuring out how to move forward.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      It’s a little different if you’re employed versus unemployed. If you’re currently employed, obviously you can and should take your time and be much more selective (quality over quantity) of applications. If unemployed you may need to use a broader tactic.

      First: have 1-3 versions of your resume ready to go for the types of roles you want. I usually do a “current” and a “stretch role” so they only require minor tweaking. Same with your cover letter, have 1-2 “templates” you can start with because letters can take more time to customize.

      When employed, I typically aim for patient persistence and apply for 1-2 GOOD positions per week, usually doing my applications on a Saturday for about 1-2 hours. And then I’m done and don’t stress over it.

      During the weeknights, I do browse my job board saved searches (LinkedIn, Indeed, Glassdoor, etc.) or email alerts 2-3 times during the week (maybe 30 minutes each time), and save any interesting jobs. But I wait until Saturday to go in and apply for the best two. Occasionally, one may disappear… but I figure that’s a bad sign anyway. If you’re browsing recently posted jobs regularly you should see them early enough if you’re checking it.

      I find that even doing 1-2 per week makes me feel I’m being proactive without getting overwhelmed. Also, if you begin getting calls and interviews, they’ll tend to be spaced out and thus, more manageable to fit into your current job.

      I know it’s tempting to apply for a shitpile of jobs all at once because you’re desperate to get out quickly. But this may only lead you to jumping to something worse. Try to focus on what it is you really want in your next role, and it’ll be a better fit for you overall if you take your time.

  131. buzzbuzzbeepbeep*

    Is a 3% raise for a new job title as insulting as I feel it is? I have been performing a supervisor/manager/coordinator job for over a year. Last week I finally was given my new job title and job description. It came with a raise…. 3%. I was shocked by this because I am moving from a non-supervisory job title to a supervisory one. I am also moving from non-exempt to exempt. The reason I was given for the small increase was because I am already being paid at the top of the scale for this new position. I feel like it’s not my problem that my company historically underpays people and that the scale they came up with is reflective of that. I also feel that I have been doing a heck of a lot more than 3% extra work in this job. Ugh!

    1. Donkey Hotey*

      It happens. My best friend alternates between “worker” and “supervisor” roles depending on the site/job he’s at that day. He calls the difference between the two pay scales “happy meal money” because that’s what a “supervisor raise” works out to be, per day.
      That said, money is money. Take it and smile.
      (And as one final note: Never, in the history of ever, have I ever heard of a company who historically overpays their employees.)

  132. heya*

    Not sure if anyone will still be perusing comments, but this is urgent so I figured I’d give it a shot :) We’re in Texas.

    Our quarantine bubble is myself and my roommate, and my boyfriend and his boyfriend. My roommate’s bf tested positive on Tuesday, and since then the other 3 of us have been assuming we have it and can spread it. My roommate tested positive on Thursday, my bf and I tested negative on Friday, but after that I have started showing symptoms, so I’ve scheduled another test. Here’s the question: my bf works at a very busy grocery store and his been staying home (paid) since we learned that we’ve likely been exposed. He let his boss know that he’s tested negative but that I have symptoms and my roommate is confirmed positive, and his boss is saying that he should still come in anyway because they’re understaffed. This is obviously a terrible idea – even if he were going to quarantine from us starting now, he would need to wait a few days and get another test since he’s been exposed more in the time since his negative test. Can they make him come in? Are there any resources he can access if they try to make him? What would y’all do?

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