open thread – January 29-30, 2021

by Alison Green on January 29, 2021

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. WonderMint*

    I applied to a startup-ish (~20people, 3 years) for a position I am qualified for, encouraged by a personal contact who is a C-suite executive at the company. I have been following the company since its inception since I believe in my contact, so I feel I know the product pretty well. I made it to the third round where I was assigned the (dreaded) interview assignment. There are ways to do these right, as Alison has wrote about, but here everything went wrong. I, blinded by being personally recommended and also sitting on my thumbs most day with the pandemic, took the bait.

    Here’s what went wrong:
    -I only got to speak to one person in the company, also a C-suite, before the assignment
    -The assignment was redoing a crucial component of the company’s product (it was not hypothetical)
    -It was lengthy!! It took me 12 hours from start to polish. Assigned on Friday, due on Monday. Impossible if I had any dependents
    -It was unpaid
    -It was to be submitted, not presented (big difference between having work and seeing work)

    When I received the rejection I asked for feedback on my interview/assignment, framing feedback as compensation for the work I put in. No response. I heard from my contact no finalists were hired. My contact feels awful about the whole thing.

    2. bunniferous*

      Sounds like you dodged a bullet….and that they got unpaid work out of you and presumably the other applicants. The fact they didn’t hire anyone sounds pretty hinky to me.

      2. Cj*

        Since they didn’t hire any of the finalists, it looks like the did the whole thing to get 12 hours free work out of 3 – 5 people.

        1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

          Sounds like an underhand way to generate 3-5 proposed solutions for an actual problem they have with that component and haven’t been able to solve…

    3. Gone Girl*

      I’ve had my share of these assignments, but it never makes it any easier; I’m really sorry. For what it’s worth, I really loved your strategy of positioning the feedback as a type of compensation (as much as they really should have paid you for doing the spec work on *their* product(!!!))

      Take-home assignments should just disappear from the hiring process in general; like you said, they put other people who may have dependents, 2nd jobs, etc. at a disadvantage and don’t necessarily do a good job of assessing a candidate’s skills in context of the job itself.

      This only decent one I’ve ever done was where I was asked to do a 30min sketch, and then had a 45min-1hr discussion with the team about my ideas and other possible solutions.

      1. WonderMint*

        I’m pretty upset that this person wouldn’t provide feedback. I give you hours of work and you can’t return an email?

        Couldn’t agree with you more – And normally I’m not a big complainer, but I want to shed light on this topic because take-homes should either go the way of the Dodo or be scrutinized until all parties are treated fairly.

        1. Gone Girl*

          100%. And I wouldn’t consider it complaining at all; it’s definitely a conversation worth having. If we’re in similar industries like I think we might be, it’s especially pertinent given the usual portfolio requirement on top of everything else.

          1. WonderMint*

            I think we are in similar, if not the same, industry! And yes, I do have a portfolio which adds to the frustration. How much work needs to be shown to make a decision by these hiring managers?

            I also have suspicions whether this hiring manager even looked at my portfolio since the second interview was a ‘portfolio walkthrough’ which I interpreted as a deep-dive of one of my projects, because SURELY this guy didn’t want me to hold his hand and guide him through my website? The whole thing was weird, I tell ya.

            1. Gone Girl*

              Everyone would say they have their own way of assessing candidates, but yeah, I’m definitely of the mindset that we’d all benefit from more thoughtful portfolio-based questions (and if the concern is that we didn’t do the work in the first place: ask the right questions and find out; it’ll be pretty easy to spot if someone is just BSing and doesn’t know what they’re talking about).

              Additionally, reeeeaaaally frustrating when the HM doesn’t do their homework (and recruiters for that matter too). I’m seconding everyone else and saying you probably dodged a bullet. A lot of times, your gut is usually right.

        2. Tired of Covid-and People*

          Call your local department of labor and file a complaint. You did unpaid work and deserve to be compensated.

      2. Anax*

        Similarly, I had one I loved where the interviewer told me what our practical exercise during the in-person interview would be, and let me prepare ahead of time before we did pair programming and discussed together in person. I was still doing practical coding work at home outside an interview, and I think I did spend a couple hours on it, but the upshot was that I was able to show how I think without being so nervous at being put on the spot, rather than feeling taken advantage of.

    4. Anononon*

      I’m not sure how close you are to your contact, but it’s really weird that a c-suite exec in a 20-person company doesn’t have any additional information to offer you. That sounds really sketchy, like they know that shady stuff is happening, but they can’t tell you.

      1. WonderMint*

        Good point. I think the WFH situation has further separated department communication , but next time I see my contact in person (whenever that may be) I’ll probe. Someone mentioned bullet dodged above, and I’m taking some solace in that!

    5. Lalla*

      I am sorry this was such a bad experience! It really seems like you dodged a bullet there…
      I am living this now from the other side. We decided to give an assignment as the second step of the process together with a technical interview, so at least we will review it with the candidates at that point.
      However…. My boss insisted I removed my instructions to “keep it to 2-3 hours” and to only write in depth code for an initial analysis, and mostly an explanation for the remaining steps. He said that if we leave it open to their own interpretation we can see “how motivated they are”. I felt shivers down my spine…
      But then I thought “Heck, we are showing them exactly as we are….expecting people to work at all hours” which is the reason why I’m about to jump ship as well. And to think think I was assured by everyone that things were not crazy in this startup before I started… At least these candidates have all the variables to make the decision.

      1. WonderMint*

        I’m glad you have your wits about this scenario. I wonder if your boss would change his tune if he considered that this approach would turn away some promising candidates.

        At my current company, we offer flat fees for the interview assignment – that way a candidate can determine how much time they want to spend on it. We’ve gotten some really good projects out of this, and even a moonlighting contract role with someone who didn’t get the full time position, but still showed promising work.

        1. Lalla*

          Ah! No way in hell! I tried to politely explain that good candidates would be turned off from worse things before (like the idea that remote people would need to work through a platform that stores a screenshot of their screen every 10 minutes) but he really doesn’t care…actually I think in his mind good candidate = accepts my micromanaging & has no life.
          I also think he is trying to push me out sooner than I want to… We are planning to go back to our country in the summer, so I won’t look for another job before then, I just have to smile at their attacks for about 5 months…
          The idea of a flat rate is good, thanks for the suggestion! My boss mentioned we would pay candidates that put a lot of work and weren’t selected, but I felt he meant that would happen only if they complained…

          1. WonderMint*

            Oh, man. Best of luck to you!! Talking about this boss sounds like a discussion best had over drinks :)

            1. Lalla*

              Indeed! It’s apéro hour here, I think I might videocall my sisters and have a venting session!
              Thanks for your wishes! Good luck to you too if you’re continuing your job search! :)

      2. Reba*

        Oh dear. I know that my spouse once dropped out of an interview process when he realized their take-home coding assignment was wayyyy too long and involved. And another former coworker of his did the same at the same company :(

        What you wanted to put in the instructions is much more humane, and I think “white board” style exercises are great in general because you can get a sense of how people reason as well as what they know… and it only takes 45 min or and hour.

        1. WonderMint*

          I’m all about white boarding assignments! Like I said, big difference between submit your work so we have it, and show your work so we can talk about it.

    6. Forkeater*

      I really feel like if a company requires a work assignment they should provide feedback to those candidates. I’ve only had two such assignments so far (and am at work on a third). First one was followed by a nice discussion with the company, second I heard nothing but crickets till the form rejection months later. I wonder what this third one will be. It’s so time consuming for the applicant.

      1. Nicotene*

        It’s so sad that companies have completely misapplied the suggestion to have an assignment as part of the interview process. In my opinion, the assignment should never take longer than an hour, total. There should not be any suggestion that doing it for longer will boost your chances (my last assignment say “2-3 hours” but then they gave us 48 hours to do it, and I started feeling like with that much time I should do more – this was partly on me but partly on their vague phrasing, and the task being extremely broad). Companies are going completely overboard on this, and there’s no way to push back on them as an applicant because of the power dynamics.

    7. Hmmm*

      Everyone is saying that you dodged a bullet, but from my perspective, it seems like you’ve already been hit by the bullet. The bullet was getting quality unpaid work out of you with no intention of every hiring you in the first place, so it seems like the company has certainly achieved what they wanted.

  2. AlexandrinaVictoria*

    Walker update! I had posted last week that my rollator was missing from my closed office. Facilities went on a hunt for it, and found it hidden in a closet…broken. Their guess is that some of the workers that were in the office in December adding higher plexiglass dividers to cubes for Covid safety were playing with it and squirreled it away so no one would know they damaged it. The company has already bought…and delivered!…a new one for me. Mystery solved.

    2. KiwiApple*

      Great that it was found in the end and even better that your company replaced it so quickly for you.

    7. Rusty Shackelford*

      For a second I thought you were talking about the new Walker, Texas Ranger show and had forgotten this wasn’t the weekend yet. And now I really want you to name your nice new rollator Walker, Texas Ranger.

        1. the cat's pajamas*

          Haha, that is great. I’m taking a programming class and they explained variables with post-it notes, e.g. imagine putting a post-it note on your chair that says “chair”, then they got into names, and it made me want to name more objects, lol. I have a few, for example, my coffee pot came with the name “Mr. Coffee” so I named my oven “Mr. Burns”

    8. BadWolf*

      Bummer that the previous one was broken, but hurray that they looked for it, found it and replaced it!! I hope the new one is better than the old one (or at least the same!).

    10. KuklaRed*

      Excellent update! I have thought about buying one of those and I know they are pricey. I’m glad your company did right by you.

    16. MissDisplaced*

      I’m glad it was found and there was an explanation that was not related to your coworkers or any employees, and that your company did the right thing here to replace it.
      But jeez! Who plays with and breaks a walker? And then hides it?

  3. Jack Be Nimble*

    How large does a company have to be before it has its own dedicated IT department?

    A friend of mine works at a start-up with about 60 employees and no internal IT. They have staff who maintain the online service the company sells, but no designated person to serve the staff’s IT needs. The office manager orders computers for new hires, but staff are expected to handle all of their own computer issues. I feel like a company much larger than 15-20 people needs IT staff, but are my expectations out of wack?

    1. Ashley*

      A company of any size that utilizes a server of backup almost always needs either an internal IT person who may do other things or contract with a company. We don’t maintain IT in house but there is a company we call when we have issues. Ever have a server break and you are dead in the water? Fast way to get the company to upgrade their IT help.

    2. TurkeyLurkey*

      The smallest company I’ve worked at (late stage startup) was about 80 people when I started and had an IT staff of about 5 at the time (about a decade ago.)

    3. Suzanne*

      No. Even a company of 15-20 needs IT staff whether it’s a staff or they hire a company. It’s not feasible or practical or smart even to expect employees to do it on their own!!

      1. Jack Be Nimble*

        Okay, that was my line of thinking, too! I’m not sure how much time the company loses a week with people having to troubleshoot an issue that an IT tech would handle at another company, but it’s greater than zero!

        1. Anax*

          There’s also some big risks when staff do their own IT work – not weekly costs, but CATASTROPHIC if they happen. What happens if the company servers get ransomware? What happens if someone gets hit by a bus and no one knows the password to their files? What happens if someone’s doing something illegal on the company network and you have to prove it was that employee, not the company itself, that was doing something wrong? So many scary risks!

    4. Dust Bunny*

      We’re about 40 people and have an IT team of three and a half (one has mixed responsibilities).

    5. CatCat*

      Maybe not their own IT staff, but definitely at least a contractor that can provide IT services to the company. I wouldn’t even know how to handle all my computer issues and I bet that’s the case for most people.

      1. Dewey Decibal*

        Yes- this! They need something, even if it’s not a dedicated in-house staff person. Many companies offer contracting services.

      2. Natalie*

        Even if everyone manages to figure it out themselves, can you imagine how inefficient that would be? Definitely more expensive than hiring a contractor that know what they’re doing.

      3. Jack Be Nimble*

        Their current solution for issues an employee can’t solve on their own is to pull one of the product developers off their projects to troubleshoot…

        They’re job hunting anyway, but they’re not convinced that the IT issue is an actual issue.

    6. Lilith*

      Smallest company I’ve worked for was about 10 people, and contracted out the IT work to a specialist company. Thinking of the companies I’ve worked for, I think all of the ones under about 200 people have contracted out the IT work.

      My current company is about 300 people and has a small IT team of 5 people, and still contracts with a big IT company for complicated jobs.

      I’d think that if I’m using company devices and company systems then a company IT person is definitely needed.

    7. Anonymous Educator*

      I worked at a company with 30 employees, and it had an internal IT staff. There is no number limit. Frankly, even if your company has only 1 employee, you need IT staff. Does that IT staff have to be internal? No. A lot of small business contract out to a managed service provider (MSP) that can manage its infrastructure or sometimes even do on-call tier 1 tech support. But you have to have some official support (external or internal) if you’re a serious business.

    8. Admin of Sys*

      I think it does depend on the type of work the company does? A 25 person App design company probably doesn’t need IT staff the same way a 25 person tea pot design company does, because folks doing app design probably should be able to handle installing their own software. But by the time you hit 50 employees, you’ve probably got admins and managers and sales force that are not 100% tech savvy and it’s silly to waste their time making them install excel or deal with that weird salesforce bug all the time.

      1. Momma Bear*

        I was thinking about this. I worked at a start up where people routinely built their own computers so a specific IT person wasn’t necessary in the same way. We did have an Office Manager whose role included getting things fixed under warranty as necessary or buying peripherals, etc. but it was the kind of shop where if you didn’t know how to handle Office 365, you weren’t likely to be working there.

      2. TechWorker*

        +1 the place I used to work had no dedicated IT staff, but it was entirely programmers and people-who-used-to-be-programmers. There were always people who knew ‘enough’ so not everyone had to be a whiz.

      3. AcademiaNut*

        On the flip side, tech heavy jobs can have more intense needs for high level expertise and quick turnarounds. I work in a STEM research environment where people are generally much more tech savvy than normal, but we have needs for IT support that are higher level and more varied than usual. Plus, there’s stuff that needs to be handled by a dedicated expert (network issues, being root on the system, system wide backups) rather than handing even tech savvy employees super user status and telling them to go to it. I do scientific software development and can administer my own machine with no problem, but you don’t want me in charge of the department’s computing systems.

    9. chickia*

      We are about 40 ppl and have a contract with an IT company. We have 1 regular guy from that company who comes in once a week on fridays to work on routine IT stuff, (setting up computers for new staff, handling upgrades, minor issues, server work, etc) and the company is available for emergencies as needed as well (we pay extra for those calls so try to save routine “this is acting weird” stuff for the friday list). At my last job I was the default onsite IT person because I set up the wifi router for our office . . . I have zero IT training so that was pretty awful. This is SO MUCH BETTER. It’s like IT light for a company that has an onsite server and needs real expert support, but doesn’t really have enough work for a person full time.

    10. Natalie*

      The only company I’ve ever worked with that has zero IT professionals, either in house or contract, are literally one person sole proprietorships that don’t really use computers for work (i.e. building trades, realtor, personal services). And even they contract out stuff like their website, payment processing, etc.

    11. Anonymous Badger*

      We have ten people at my company and a contract with a really excellent external IT company that handles any computer issues, although since I have some IT experience I’ll often try to do some basic troubleshooting with staff before we call them.

    12. lemon*

      Agree with others that even tiny companies need some kind of IT service. Even when I worked at a small, 10-person, family-owned business, we had an IT contractor to contact for serious issues.

    13. RussianInTexas*

      My company is about 50-ish (half is the warehouse staff and varies). We do not have a dedicated IT nor a dedicated HR departments. We have “Sam” who restarts the severs if they crash, and “Naomi” who does payroll, and “Helen, the CFO and the co-owner”, who does benefits (in December, when you can’t possibly select your spouse’s plan anymore).
      Yes, we’ve had issues due to the lack of both, why do you ask?

    14. Annie Moose*

      Is it an IT company? I work for a software development company with about 100 employees and we only have one dedicated IT person (and a couple others who perform light IT-related duties, but it’s not their primary role). I am surprised if they don’t have anyone with any dedicated IT responsibilities, but if it were a tech company with people who at least are partially assigned some IT duties, then that’s less surprising to me.

      If it’s a non-tech company, though–yes, that’s kind of weird!

      1. Jack Be Nimble*

        They’re tech adjacent. The company’s primary function is providing a particular, specialized service to other companies (it’s hard to get more specific without naming their exact function!), but they have a proprietary software they use to make that service work. They’re more like consultants, but they operate in a tech-y sphere.

        Based on my friend’s report, most of the staff is fairly tech savvy, but they have a growing number of staff who are in administrative and customer-service role who run the gamut.

    15. Ace in the Hole*

      We have 35 employees, but only about a third of us are doing office work that uses computers. So effectively 12 employees for IT purposes. We hire an outside company to do it – asking us to do all our IT stuff ourselves would be ridiculous!

    16. mreasy*

      A good friend works for a company of 100 people, entirely remote, with no IT. It makes zero sense and whenever he has computer problems he wastes a ton of time on the phone w computer mfr, repair, etc.

    17. Slipping The Leash*

      We are a 55 person firm. Back in the day, I was employee #20 and we already had an IT guy when I started. Now IT is a department of 5…and we keep them busy.

    18. Generic Name*

      When my company was 15 people we had our own part time system administrator/IT person. We are now at 70 and we contract with an outside company to provide IT services for us.

    19. Quinalla*

      Smallest I’ve worked for without dedicated IT had about 15 people, we did have external IT support from someone for servers, etc. just in case, though mostly there was someone who did IT as basically a side-job to their main job on staff. I think everyone needs some kind of IT support, no matter how small, there is support available from Microsoft, etc. even for tiny companies.

    20. KimmyBear*

      I worked at a tech startup of 25-30 people where we had no IT staff. Everyone was tech savvy enough to figure out most issues and we outsourced to a help desk company when needed (like when the intern downloaded a virus). However, it also meant that the Director of thingamabobs was getting paid way too much to deal with updating drivers and the Sales manager was spending time troubleshooting AV equipment.

    21. CFP Wannabe*

      I worked 12-8:30PM for about a year and a half when I was 24/25 and single and for me it did not work well. I got into a bad habit of staying up late and sleeping in super late. I was not taking advantage of my mornings the way I had assumed I would, and then I wasn’t getting home until 9/9:30. The only reason it was kind of okay was that I ended up becoming really close with a few of my coworkers and we ended up hanging out after work because most people did not want to hang out with people/do stuff after 9 pm on a weeknight but that was really my only “me” time because I slept in.
      I also found dating hard, and remember one person I liked quite a bit that was a teacher who had such an opposite schedule than me that it was really not possible to hang out during the week. He had to be up at 6/6:30 and I wasn’t available until 9/9:30.

      But now that I’m older and have kids, that schedule would simply not work. So, if you don’t have a lot of outside of work obligations and the job is short term, maybe it would be okay but I found it pretty draining.

    22. OtterB*

      We have 20 people now. We used to have a full time IT person but we also used to run our own server for our webpage. We no longer do that. Our last IT person went out on his own running an IT consulting company, with us as a client keeping him on retainer. If we have problems he will normally help, but there’s also one of his other staff available for backup if he’s not around. Works well.

    23. Choggy*

      I feel bad for those who work in this company who have even the remotest amount of technical savvy. I’ve been there, and created a career (somewhere else!) of it. It’s not an enviable position to be in, and would be best to keep it on the down low unless you want to be bombarded with questions from your less computer literate coworkers.

    24. fhqwhgads*

      A million years ago back when I worked in that area, the rule of thumb I was always told was there should be 1 IT person per 50 users and/or workstations+servers said IT person(s) would need to support.

      So a 60 person company should have either one internal IT person, or be contracted to some external IT that is on-call.

    25. Chaordic One*

      When I worked in a branch office with a staff of about 20, the IT department was located in a completely different office hundreds of miles away. They would send over someone about once every 2 or 3 weeks, but we finally appointed one of the more tech-savvy admins to work part-time as an IT and she would spend maybe anywhere from 4 to 16 hours a week doing more basic maintenance, updates and troubleshooting, as well as setting up new computers. (She got a raise along with the increased responsibilities.) We also had a couple of of admins who would do things like help tech-challenged department heads set up their email and help them with things that they should have been able to do on their own, but couldn’t figure out, such as installing basic software updates. Those kind of department heads are slowly aging out of their positions and retiring.

    26. Cj*

      I don’t think they necessarily need an in house IT person, but they should certainly work with an outside IT person with initial set up and any other issues that come up.

  4. Sydney Ellen Wade*

    Does anyone live on the east coast but work west coast hours? How did you adjust to the time change? I’m excited about sleeping in every day but am struggling with finishing work at 8 PM.

    1. Littorally*

      Oh, I used to, and I hated it with every fiber of my being. I work 9:30-6 now and even that feels much too late for me. I’m a morning person! Let me do morning person hours!

    2. Threeve*

      Start gradually pushing back your eating and caffeinating schedule to be in line with the time zone you’re working in.

    3. PolarVortex*

      While not quite in your boat – I work ridiculous o’clock morning hours to overlap with the international peoples of my company so I figure this should help:

      – Take your lunch hour if you’re not currently doing so. I see a lot of people who don’t do this and I am guilty of it myself. But if I take that hour to go do something else – walk, read a book, stare at a wall, whatever – it jump starts my ability to be productive for the latter half of my workday. I also shifted my lunch so that it’s 5-6 hours into my day (depending on meetings) so that I have extra pressure to get my EOD stuff done.

      – Plan out what you’re doing for the end of your shift. I know the last two hours of my shift are the ones I’m most likely to be non-productive. So I work what mindless tasks I have to those hours to make it easier for me to work through it. A variety of what I do with that time: completing training that comes through every so often, running mindless reports that we can’t automate, going through emails that are non-priority, but mostly: prepping for my shift the next day because those few hours in the morning are when I am most productive.

      It’s honestly just habit building like anything else in life. I’ve been in my current shift for 2 years now and I honestly hope it never changes because I’ve grown to adore it. (I’ve never been an afternoon person, I am both a morning and night person.)

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        A kindred spirit! Asked if I’m a morning person or a night person, I say neither. I like early mornings, late nights, and midday rest…. I’m a siesta person. Alas far from siesta countries.

    4. lapgiraffe*

      I’m single with no kids so I know this doesn’t work for everyone, but I loved working that schedule. It allowed me to work out in the morning without waking up too early, run errands, prep dinner, etc. Yes I would be working a bit later, but I’m so NOT a morning person and do my best work after lunch anyway so there were so many positives to outweigh the negatives. I did have flexibility to change up my day if, for instance, I wanted to go to a play or the symphony, or just had some sort of evening activity I needed to go to. And Fridays I basically always worked East coast hours, which was actually hard because those “early” mornings were hardest at the end of an exhausting week, but my job was such that there’s nothing time sensitive happening on Friday afternoons.

      1. Sydney Ellen Wade*

        I’m also single with no kids and not a morning person, which is why I think this can work, if I get acclimated to it. Thanks!

    5. Charlotte Lucas*

      I used to work for a call center in the Midwest that served customers in the Northwest. My hours were 11:25 am – 8 pm, & I loved it! But I can see how it’s hard for some people. I recommend what everyone else is saying. (It helps to be a bit of a night owl.) I also recommend taking advantage of freer mornings. I used to get my errands run much faster, because most places weren’t as busy. I also liked to get my dinner prepped & in the fridge in the morning, so I could just toss it in the oven when I got home. And I had plenty of sunshine to go for long walks/exercise in the morning, no matter the time of year.

      1. Sydney Ellen Wade*

        Meal prep is a good idea, thanks! I’m thinking of having lunch be my big meal of the day instead of dinner but it’d be nice to have meals ready ahead of time.

    6. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I started a job where most of my team is on the west coast or in China, so I’m trying to adjust. Working from home makes it a bit easier I think, so it will be interesting to see what happens when we go back to the office. I do start my day a bit later, usually 8:30, and use my mostly meeting free mornings to do work that is best uninterrupted – writing policies, creating trainings, etc. My afternoons are a mix of meetings, answering emails from people who are now in the office, and smaller tasks that aren’t hard to put down and then pick back up. I do flex my days when I know I have late calls – I might log off at 5 and make dinner, then jump back on at 7. Or, I’ll do a longer lunch hour and run an errand or grab groceries on days I know I’m on late calls. It’s definitely an adjustment for me and my partner, who is now in charge of more weekday meals. We try to sit down on the weekends and share our schedules so we can figure out who cooks which nights, or which nights we are just on our own for meals I also try to make sure that I finish any laundry I’m doing before noon so that I’m not rushing to change it out or fold it between meetings.

    7. Twenty Points for the Copier*

      I’m self-employed so I have a lot of flexibility and don’t work a pure west coast schedule, but I keep much closer to west coast hours than east coast ones (I am on the east coast but work with a lot of people on the west coast). Usually I’m starting by 9:30 or 10 and done by around 7. If you can do that much of a shift, I think it’s a lot easier than 12-8.

      I mostly love it – I always feel like I am ahead on the day relative to people on the west coast and I rarely have to set an alarm clock (just through habit I’m usually up by 8:30 or 9 though). I don’t have kids and have a spouse whose a night owl with a flexible schedule, so we just live late. I’ve just learned to accept that happy hour or early evening activities means taking time off (and is thus much more rare).

      1. Sydney Ellen Wade*

        I’m going to see if I can do 11-7 instead of 12-8, as I agree it would be easier. Thank you!

    8. Momma Bear*

      When I worked out of my employer’s time zone, I was part of their early crew. Their customers really appreciated it (as they were global, too). Then I clocked out at a normal to me hour while my West Coast coworkers picked up and kept working. We did, however, have “core hours” where people were expected to be available, be it for meetings or anything else. Maybe suggest that to your company – that everyone is available 10-4 their time and how you make up the other hours outside that is flexible? We had one meeting that was always in the afternoon b/c that was when most of the team was available.

    9. CFP Wannabe*

      I worked 12-8:30PM for about a year and a half when I was 24/25 and single and for me it did not work well. I got into a bad habit of staying up late and sleeping in super late. I was not taking advantage of my mornings the way I had assumed I would, and then I wasn’t getting home until 9/9:30. The only reason it was kind of okay was that I ended up becoming really close with a few of my coworkers and we ended up hanging out after work because most people did not want to hang out with people/do stuff after 9 pm on a weeknight but that was really my only “me” time because I slept in.
      I also found dating hard, and remember one person I liked quite a bit that was a teacher who had such an opposite schedule than me that it was really not possible to hang out during the week. He had to be up at 6/6:30 and I wasn’t available until 9/9:30.

      But now that I’m older and have kids, that schedule would simply not work. So, if you don’t have a lot of outside of work obligations and the job is short term, maybe it would be okay but I found it pretty draining.

    10. Sleepy*

      Plan out actual activities for your morning–it helps when you feel like you did something rather than whiling away time on your phone. Going to the gym, walking, shopping, coffee with friends (covid permitting).
      The great thing about this kind of schedule is that rather than doing your hobbies after work when you’re exhausted, it’s easier to do them before work when you have plenty of energy.
      Also, invest in a slow cooker and a slow cooker cookbook. Make your meals in the morning, stick them in the slow cooker, and then you can easily pull them out at dinner time.

      1. llama costume designer*

        We have about 50 people, a small IT team of 5, and a contract service provider for hardware and network stuff. Our company’s product is internet based and requires more IT support than regular office jobs. Having consistency makes it easier to manage with managing software rollouts/upgrades, ordering consistent hardware specs/keeping track of computer replacements, security etc. You can save money on buying multiple licenses of software and having someone manage who has what.

  5. No Tribble At All*

    I’ve officially given notice! I have a new job that I’ll start in a month. I’ve never quit a job before — this was the first company I worked at out of college — so any advice about quitting a job, especially quitting remotely? I’m trying to collect my thoughts for the exit interview, and I’m going to give my friends at work my personal contact information. Anything you wish you had or had not done?

    1. Box of Kittens*

      I wish I had advice for you, but I have solidarity! I am hoping to leave the only company I’ve ever worked at full-time soon and it will be weird. I don’t know if you’re leaving a small org or a behemoth, but whenever I can resign I’m planning on mentioning a few things I envision for my position going forward as well as warm fuzzy stuff about working here. :) Good luck to you!

    2. Virginia-Marie*

      Congratulations + Don’t sweat it. Ask for a phone call or video call with your supervisor and let them know you will follow up with an email. Cc your personal email so that you have record of your two weeks or longer and keep it brief. “Thank you for my time here, my last day will be xx and I’m committed to ensuring a smooth transition.” I would also not expect a lot of the exit interview, I may be jaded, but every place that’s done one has been pretty pro-forma. It’s also not the place to do an airing of grievances, even though that would be cathartic! Good luck

    3. Anononon*

      I just want to point out that you shouldn’t be surprised/upset if your work friends don’t really contact you or drift apart. In fact, I think it’s more unusual to stay in regular, friendly contact with work friends than not. It’s no fault on either side.

      1. Tacocat*

        And really at first you might need to take a break as much as you like them. I kept in close contact with my good work friends when I recently left my job and it made me miss them and feel a lot of regret because they were always at the forefront of my mind.

    4. Lilith*

      It’s a very small thing, but if it’s the kind of place where you send out a friendly goodbye email on the last day (and assuming you’re leaving on good terms), don’t leave it until your last minute there! Send it a few hours before and people will have time to respond and wish you luck, which is a nice positive note to finish on.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I would consider doing it the end of the previous day, because sometimes email accounts get shut off early. The public reason to tell anyone who asks is that you’re giving a last chance for people to remember questions or tasks they didn’t put on your wrapup list.

    5. Octopus*

      I have a comment about exit interviews. I would read Alison’s articles that describe exit interviews as “free consulting for the company.” I think that’s very apt, and I wish I’d read that before giving mine. Remember that you should only give honest feedback if you think it will be safe to do so (won’t jeopardize a reference). I’d also add it’s not worth sharing anything you don’t think they’ll implement/if they won’t change. Better to hold back and wish you said something than say something you wish you hadn’t (IMO).

      1. Quinalla*

        Agreed very much with this, only be as honest as is safe for you. My first job I quit I gave some very honest feedback that I knew would be valuable to my old boss, but some feedback I did not give or gave very lightly as I knew he wouldn’t listen to it and for some of it had even hired an outside consultant to improve the company and not listened to that feedback there already. I wanted to help my old boss, but I wasn’t going to be completely honest when I knew at best it would irritate him with no change or at worst might jeopardize my reference.

    6. Momma Bear*

      If you haven’t yet had a conversation with your boss, you should do that. Use video if you can but at least a phone call if you can’t. Then follow up with an email and/or whatever documentation HR needs from you.

      Let your teammates know you’re on the way out and follow HR guidance re: forms and procedures. Make sure that anything that’s really important is written somewhere, even if it’s just a quick Word doc. If you are handing your duties off to someone, work with that person to let them know scope and status, especially of anything you will not finish.

      Don’t be tempted to treat the exit interview like a scorched earth situation – you may need those references. Follow their lead. They may not even ask you to elaborate on your leaving and “new opportunities” covers a lot of ground.

      Congrats on the next step in your career!

  6. Should I apply*

    I want to share a positive experience I had about asking people their salaries. I am starting a job a search, and the typical salary sites were not helpful, either such broad ranges that they were meaningless or so low, that I knew they were not realistic for my market. I listened to a podcast that suggested reaching out to people on linkedin. While the idea made me pretty nervous, I went ahead with it, thinking what do I have to lose? I did primarly reach out to former co-workers that I had at least some experience with. I was expecting that maybe only a couple would respond, but the majority did. While the level of information provided varied, it really did help me get a better sense of the market and forms of compensation I hadn’t really considered before (stock options).

    What I thinked helped in getting a response, I asked former co-workers, I made it clear it was a favor and I would accept whatever information they were comfortable sharing, and I shared my current salary (eek!) so it wouldn’t feel like a one sided conversation.

    1. Mouse*

      This sounds great! I’m glad it worked for you. Could you share some of the wording you used for the request?

      1. Should I apply*

        It was pretty straight forward, but customized for each person. Hello, Hope you are doing well at your new role. I am asking for a favor, I am starting a job search and am trying to get a better understanding of market rates. Would you be willing to share any information related to salary? Current salary, pay band, % comparison to your old role, whatever you are comfortable sharing. For reference I am currently making X, for role Y. Thanks for your time, Should I apply

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      That’s great to hear! Yeah, if you share your salary first, I think that makes a huge difference in terms of other people sharing, too.

      I’ve also had good luck with creating anonymous surveys (like a Google Form) and distributing it to only an industry-specific mailing list or forum.

  7. Box of Kittens*

    HOW TO LEAVE A SMALL ORG??

    I have been looking for a next step from being a one-person marketing department at a small organization. Y’all have been super helpful with helping me decide the pros and cons of staying in my position vs leaving, and if the right opportunity presents itself, it’s probably time to move on. I’ve been interviewing and may have a new job within a few months if not sooner (crossed fingers). The thing is, I know that our leadership here has been looking at me as a possible person to groom for leadership (way down the line, but succession planning is one of the goals for this year). I know that putting in my resignation would blindside them a bit. I have mentioned at the places I’m interviewing that I’d prefer a 3-4 week notice so that I can wrap up some projects since I’m a one-person team, but resignation is still likely to be an awkward and emotional conversation. I know this is a business decision, and am definitely prepared with language to point to that, but my C-suite tends to be more emotional about people leaving, especially when I know they love me and are expecting to see me here for a long time. Does anyone have advice on navigating that?

    1. Just did this*

      I just left a smaller org that I had worked at for over 8 years and had worked with the management for about 14 years (small industry). It was hard. I hadn’t been happy there for a couple years and there were 100 reasons to leave but it was still hard. Write down all the reasons you are leaving and all the good things about the new place and keep it close when you give notice. When they try to convince to stay and you feel emotional about it, look at the list and remember why leaving is a good decision. Even better if you can have a family member or friend provide backup on why leaving will be good for you too.

      1. Box of Kittens*

        Thank you for this. It’s def good to know I’m not alone feeling like this. My husband has been very supportive about whatever decision I make so that’s been nice.

    2. Anxious Overdresser*

      I just left a small org! It was hard at first, they did feel totally blindsided and I got wheedled into giving an extra week. However, I left impossibly detailed (even pedantic) instructions, automated everything I could, and left everything impeccably organized with detailed instructions/links as to where it all was. The effort was noticed and appreciated, and they’re feeling much more confident. Not perfect, but way less stressful than it seemed at first.

      1. Box of Kittens*

        That’s what I’m hoping to be able to do, because I have built a lot of structure that wasn’t here before. A little overwhelming though! It’s good to hear that others have done it successfully.

    3. Anonymous Badger*

      I left an org I’d been at for a long time about a year and a half ago. Leadership was also grooming me for additional roles and reactions were mixed. My immediate supervisor and most of the other managers were super happy for me even though they were sad I was leaving. My department manager and her big boss took it badly, though. The big boss refused to talk to me or acknowledge me at all in the two weeks before I left, going so far as to literally turn and walk in the other direction when I said hello to her in passing.

      My department manager tried to avoid me as well, but I ultimately forced her to have a conversation with me about it (as in I barged into her office at the end of the day and said I was looking to say goodbye to her and to thank her for what she’d done to help my career). She told me she felt betrayed by my leaving, that they had poured so much time and effort into my development, and essentially tried to guilt-trip me, which mostly just served to reinforce to me that my decision was the right one. She then avoided me for the last few days I was still there.

      Ultimately, there’s no guarantee that people will have the reaction you want them to have. People are going to feel what they’re going to feel. But being professional and respectful is still a reasonable goal for you. So tell your supervisor in person first (or over the phone if COVID is a concern where you live). Send a resignation letter after to have something in writing. Do your best to give proper notice. And remember that just because someone is upset or angry about it doesn’t mean that you’ve done anything wrong.

      1. Momma Bear*

        My project manager avoided me during my notice period as well. It was a worse reflection on them than me, IMO.

        I like your last sentence. OP is not responsible for how they feel or wrong for leaving.

    4. Momma Bear*

      I left a small org and while it was a surprise to my boss, I think he also understood that this was a logical next step professionally. A downside of small teams is that you are one deep and sometimes there’s nowhere to go but out. I would be thankful for the opportunity but keep it professional and keep your eye on your next step.

    5. Well, this sucks!*

      No advice on navigating, but more on mindset.

      I worked for a small org for years (like it was the boss, me and one other person at our largest!) and I was really afraid that by leaving, the business would fail and I really liked my boss, but not the work anymore. I honestly stayed too long because of that.

      When I did leave, she was fine. I’m sure it was stressful and she probably had to make some changes, but I really wasn’t the heart and soul of the business in the way I thought I was. Ultimately, everyone is replaceable. It was a really good lesson for me, I just wish I learned it sooner!

      1. Box of Kittens*

        That’s honestly helpful to hear too, thank you. Part of why I’m looking to leave is that I feel like the person in my position should ideally have much more experience in marketing and even building a department from scratch, where I had nothing. I know they may not take my advice, but I really want to mention that through the resignation process. Not only am I replaceable but I truly don’t think at this point I or someone with similar experience as me is the best person for the job anymore.

        1. Well, this sucks!*

          I think it’s worth mentioning, but don’t put yourself down either! It sounds like you’ve been able to make it work. And I know how hard it is being a department of one! No one to mentor you, bounce ideas off of…

          1. Box of Kittens*

            That did come off kind of down-putting, didn’t it? I think I have fallen into that a lot lately just from not having someone to mentor me or kind of assess how I’m doing as you mentioned. But honestly having to rally and talk about myself for interviewing has helped with that a bit and this is a good reminder to make sure I’m sounding upbeat when I suggest a more experienced person for a replacement.

    6. Wordybird*

      At the end of last year, I left a very small non-profit (3 salaried employees and 3-4 PT/contractors), and while it had to be done, I didn’t enjoy doing it. To give you an idea of how close I was to everyone, all 3 salaried employees reached out to me on my birthday this month including one who left me a voicemail singing “Happy Birthday.”

      Since we were working from home, it was easier to not have to resign face-to-face as I knew my immediate supervisor would be blindsided and disappointed to lose me and I knew I would sense/feel that (hi, HSP!) and then try to fill in the awkward gap with too much information. I wrote down notes on what I was going to say and what I was NOT going to say and briefly went over them before I made the phone call. Most importantly, I reminded myself that I was not curing cancer or solving world hunger and however much they may have liked me and my work, that I was completely replaceable & life would go on without me there.

      The phone call with my supervisor was emotionally hard but we all survived. I did everything I could to make the transition easier including volunteering to come in for a couple hours with my replacement to show her the ropes (as she was planning on working out of the office part-time) as she was hired after my two week notice was over. I wrote thank-you/goodbye notes to my supervisor and the other two people I had worked most closely with, and that gave me (and hopefully them) the emotional closure needed.

      It was a business decision, and as much as I enjoyed working there, I treated it as such when I gave notice and completed my two weeks. I didn’t second-guess my decision or try to justify or explain it when volunteers asked why I was leaving. I know that my supervisor and the org itself was hoping I’d stay long-term since I was good at what I did but at the end of the day, I had to do what was best for me, for my family, and for my career. Staying long-term at a small non-profit for little money and benefits and no way to move up was not best.

  8. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    I’m dying over here! There’s a lot of deadlines for the end of the month and yesterday IT was fooling with the server and I couldn’t get my work in. ( It was out for at least three hours). Today I have to drive across town to get a piece of paper signed and this us also the day where I drive two hours round trip for an appointment. I had a lot of missing materials last month and my boss said it was fine. I’m thinking of not working over the weekend and just having my stuff be late. Should I?

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Talk with your boss! It’s always better to set the expectation ahead of time rather than after the fact – a heads up that you’re not going to make a deadline is waaay better than just missing it without saying anything. Something breezy like “hey between the server being out, having to drive across town to get the signature, and my standing appointment, I’m not going to be have [project] done today but can have it for you [later date], does that work for you?” would go a long way.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        Yea, since my boss is out this week we weren’t able to rebalance things but I’ll email her and explain that I am going to be having trouble getting the documents in. I at least know which will cause problems with the company getting paid and I’ll do those although I might have to work til 10 instead of my usual stopping time of 8

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      Talk to the boss — the server outage should be enough, but better to ask beforehand than to find out later it was a critical deadline.

    4. Vox Experientia*

      you might also mention to your boss that in most companies IT doesn’t touch the server during production hours for this very reason. server maintenance should be night/weekend only (for most businesses). even for 24/7 shops, IT should have a window determined by when customers and production will be least impacted by changes (change management).

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I’m “IT adjacent” with close friends in that role. Some things have to be done ASAP. If they were affected by a security break, for instance, or if an outside vendor didn’t give lead-time for an update. By acknowledging that wiggle room when you mention the shutdown, you sound ultra reasonable, let them save face, and still get your point across.

      3. Anon E. Moose*

        Hey just uh chiming in here as IT – there are times that the problem didn’t originate with IT, but we are the ones communicating the urgent maintenance so we get blamed.

        So when you are crafting the message to your boss, keep a little “giving them grace” in your head while doing so. It might (or might not) have been their decision or issue that caused the unexpected outage, so approaching it like a problem to solve together might help set the right tone for the message.

  9. It's bananas*

    I’m working for a large school district, but my background is in the private/corporate world. I don’t know if this is normal for working in education or not, but it’s so disorganized. There are processes that I have to follow, yet people want to do their own thing and/or ignore the processes, etc. Most of my time is spent fixing their work, enforcing policies, etc. Communication isn’t always clear and I don’t know who to direct questions to and then I have directors upset because the email should have been given to them and not so-and-so. I send out emails, no one responds, etc. People are too busy to take the time to train or answer questions.

    I’ve dealt with this a little in the corporate world, but not as much/not to this extent.

    I feel very frustrated, but wonder if this is normal in education? Has anyone else experienced this?

    1. Admin to the stars*

      I am a staff member in academia and sadly this all sounds very familiar to me, especially the no policies and procedures and people ignoring emails. The longer your work there the easier it will be to figure out and remember all the little tricks and shortcuts that make the work easier. Plus, in my experience anyway, the nature of the job is very cyclical so once you get a year or two under your belt and figure out the big events and deadlines it will get easier. My biggest tip is document your job, make a manual for yourself with how-tos, contact info, instructions, etc. Mine is currently 25 pages long which seems crazy, but I use it every day.

      1. FunInAcademia*

        This comment certainly made me LOL literally! I work in public academia and this is so very true. As Admin to the stars says, the longer you are in the position the more you’ll develop the workarounds necessary to get things (somewhat) into an organized fashion. My own position manual runs over 30 pages as situations, policies and procedures change!

        1. Nope.*

          Where are you guys dealing with only 25-30 page manuals? Sorry, that sounds rude, I don’t mean it that way – I’m almost jealous, I guess. Between what I have to do prior to every semester beginning, after census for that semester passes, and what I have to do for the end of semester processes, I think I’m around 250 pages. Probably the same amount covers our vast daily processes – and by “our” I mean a team of two.

    2. A Teacher*

      Welcome to public education. Teacher with 12 years of experience speaking. Sometimes its just easier to go in our rooms as teachers close the door and do our own thing–which sounds counterproductive but often those at the top in admin have no clue what actually takes place in the classroom. The amount of meetings and emails that could be condescended is amazing. And SO many levels of management–so so many.

    3. Masquerade*

      I did a shadow day with someone who handles a more ‘industry-related’ aspect at a large research/medical school and this very much seemed to be their experience. They had a ‘herding cats’ joke picture on their desk, which I think is an apt metaphor for that line of work. I think a lot of their job was tracking down professors for forms, signatures, etc and dealing with them when they would get upset over a missing deadline (caused by their lack of filling out said form on time.

      As a grad student, there were multiple times when I had to get a deadline extension solely because someone I needed a signature from wouldn’t respond to emails or was never in their office.

      I think you’ll probably just need to get used to sending “gentle reminder” emails and documenting each time you try to reach someone and it goes unanswered.

    4. MechanicalPencil*

      One of my parents is a teacher, and the common complaint is that administration is constantly changing procedure, so they’re having to keep track of what way is the new/correct way to do The Thing. This is on top of the normal/expected teacher duties of planning/grading, and now on top of teaching in a pandemic, with half of the students being in-person and half virtual.

      Smart districts planned ahead. My parent’s district decidedly did not.

    5. Funbud*

      Have you ever seen “Up the Down Staircase” (1967)? It’s about a fledgling teacher (Sandy Dennis) at a NYC high school. Substitute typed & mimeographed memos for emails and your situation describes the plot perfectly. Some things never change.

    6. The New Normal*

      This is very normal in public education. One aspect of my job is to plan the graduation ceremony for my large high school. We are one of 7 high schools in the district and it is a top 10 (in size) district in California. They take graduation ridiculously serious. But last year not one single person responsible for planning graduations was involved in the district’s decision-making for graduations. It was horrible for us – they required us to do things that just did not make sense.

      So frankly, yes, all public schools will have this issue. Communication is not clear. The answers will change depending on who you talk to. CYA is a big deal. If it is said on a phone call, follow up with an email repeating what was said.

    7. James*

      My wife’s a teacher. She’s also been in the private sector. She complains about this many, many times! At times it’s useful, because it gives her the latitude to do what’s best for students. But just as often it’s frustrating because there’s no clear direction, or the students get confused about what’s needed.

      It’s amusing seeing it from my side (corporate world). I can tell what some of the policies my wife complains about are trying to do, and I can usually predict the problems that will arise and blindside the administration.

    8. Teacher’s kid*

      Child of a teacher. This is normal. As others have said, many teachers have limited experience working outside a school. Couple that with the fact school systems are very decentralized in many places (i.e. each principal/ teacher runs their own little fiefdom) and process goes out the window. Hang in there!

    9. Sleepy*

      This is super normal. I honestly think teachers are the worst at keeping to procedures & deadlines because they’re constantly bending procedures & deadlines for students. Also, teachers have so, so much work to do that everything else legitimately falls by the wayside.

    10. Me*

      Teacher here. I’ve never worked anywhere but a school district, but a friend who works in finance once described my job to her colleagues as such: Imagine that you have to give presentations all day. And then, all of the work that you would normally do all day needs to take place outside 8:00-2:45– except for the 45 minutes you have allotted to you to get it all done.

      Like I said, I’ve never worked outside the school system, but I find that people who often want to assert “if you’d just do this one thing…” don’t realize that I have 150 students, 200+ parents, 8+ supervisors, and numerous other people saying the exact same thing. And that easily becomes 100+ “if you’d just do this one thing/abide by this one deadline” at a time.

      Im a full-grown adult who is fully capable of understanding and abiding by deadlines, but having so many at once often means that something has to give, and when I have to choose between student learning and directives from central office, I’ll choose student learning.

      1. peasblossom*

        Yes, I’m in higher education so a different beast, but all of this is hugely relevant. I’m sure the above commenters lamenting the lack of professionalization/responsibility/bureaucratic hustle don’t realize how insulting they’re being, but education is a field with a lot of immediate, time-intensive work *and* a lot of paperwork. Most educators I know (unless they’re ancient tenured folk at elite institutions) have to make choices about their time because there are so many demands on it.

      2. Gamer Girl*

        This is exactly why I left teaching! Once I got out, I missed the students terribly, but I was so relieved that after my eight hours I could stop working! I spent 12+ hours daily, plus time on weekends, as a teacher grading and planning, plus all of the admin!

      1. Disco Janet*

        If she wants to wait to have it done. Breakdown of a teacher’s day (coming from a high school perspective:
        – Spend nearly all day with students in the room, teaching
        – Have one hour students are not in the room, during which you must decide whether your time is better spent responding to parents emails, making a dent in grading for your 150 students (since an hour is not enough time to grade 150 things), or planning/putting together materials for upcoming lessons. Often, you don’t get to do any of these things because you’re needed in an IEP meeting for one of your special education students.
        – Put in work after hours and on weekends to finish the above things you couldn’t complete during that hour without students, plus whatever documentation/processes your school requires. This can change regularly, so sometimes you might slip up and forget about a new procedure because you’re juggling so many things.

    12. Cascadia*

      Yep, super normal! One comment or above remarked that it is cyclical to the school year though. The first academic year is the hardest, the second year gets slightly better and by the end of the 3rd you have a much better sense of what you’re doing and how everything works. I can’t tell from your comment whether you’re working with other staff or with teachers. If you are working with teachers, please read all the other comments and understand teachers have a million things on their plate and dealing with administrative procedures is at the bottom of the list. Add on to that the fact that policies seem to change every year, and teachers only hear what their principals tell them, who in turn get mixed messages, and yea- it can be a real cf.

    13. Call Me Cordelia*

      Teacher of a decade here! Look-from 7:30-3 pm I am activity working with students in some capacity (IE when not directly doing lessons, I’m managing recess, etc). During that time I have exactly 20 minutes to each and use the bathroom and then another 45 minutes in which to email, grade, copy, plan. Honestly…the policies/paperwork etc that don’t directly impact my students or my paycheck are not my top priority. I’m fully capable of understanding the importance of deadlines, etc. But I have to prioritize otherwise I quickly find myself turning my job into 24 hour event.

      If you’re struggling with identifying who to talk to, start by identifying the major directors and asking them what issues they prefer to cover. I’d also start making phonically-they’re harder to ignore and will lend to some urgency. I’d also be patient, as some others pointed out, there’s an ebb and flow to the school year that you’ll begin to identify as well as the aspect of ‘fiefdoms’; ie every principal and teacher are somewhat contained to their own area. You’ll begin to learn who you need to ask to get things done. I also suggest planning ahead-teachers and admin generally can just get something done immediately. We have to build it into our schedule.

      Hope this helps!

  10. Amber Rose*

    Haaaa… We had a three hour meeting on Wednesday in which the CEO went over everyone’s new roles and stuff, and I was totally skipped over. You’d think I’d be used to it by now but it’s still kind of wearing after everything I’ve done.

    With that in mind, I have a resume question. Although they aren’t strictly defined, I can break up my employment here into sort of three main roles. When I list them on my resume, do I include dates, even though those dates would be guesses at best?

    1. Chauncy Gardener*

      Wow. That must sting! I’m very sorry you’re being treated that way.
      I think I would break up your roles that way. Or maybe just break them up and not put dates? Would the dates help show growth/increase in span of control/responsibilities?
      You could also just chunk the bullets for each ‘role’ together on your resume.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I’m just wondering about dates since the first “role” lasted about a year, the second about 4 years, and this latest one since last April. It’s been a definite progression, but I don’t want to misrepresent myself as having more experience in this latest role than I have.

        3. Two Dog Night*

          I agree with Ashley–
          most recent role (2020-current)
          middle role (2016-2020)
          first role (2015)

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      Or don’t bother with dates at all on the resume and just show the progression. Discuss the dates in the interview?

    3. cheapeats*

      I’m a hiring manager in a tech company (among my other hats). I’ve been here 20+ years and a hiring manager for 10 of those years. For the most part, I really don’t care about length of time in roles unless it’s so minimal that you haven’t mastered the role. I’d just structure it something like:

      Llamas, Inc, Dec 2015 – present
      During my tenure at the company, covered three primary areas of focus/responsibility
      Llama Wrangling – description
      Eyelash Combing – description
      Poop Scooping – description

      What I really want to know as a HM are the metrics that tell me why you were great in those roles, or the hard/soft skills you acquired, or the improvements you brought to bear that made a difference in your company. Not how long you were there. YMMV.

  11. Indisch Blau*

    When colleagues won’t cooperate

    A friend of mine was in an interview for a position as a bookkeeper/accountant. She was asked how she would handle it when co-workers were late getting information or parts of reports to her so that she could put together a final report in time for the deadline. She didn’t really have a good answer and said something about maybe offering to help. She didn’t get the job and thought she had probably dodged a bullet.
    We wonder, though, how can an employee motivate others to finish their part of a project on time? And what would be a good answer in an interview when one doesn’t know much about the company culture?
    In my firm we’ve had similar problems with invoices being signed off and turned in quite late – not so late that fees are incurred but late enough that the monthly accounting had to be re-done. Our bookkeeper has tried stern talking to, showing (or offering to show) the offenders how much work they’re causing her and threatening to take the problem to the boss. And imposing “fines” in the form of candy for the dish on her desk. All of these have helped to some extent, without alleviating the problem completely.

    1. Picard*

      For us, our POs have to be signed off on – once the PO is signed, if the invoices matches, its paid without any further signatures. No PO? It doesnt get ordered. :) Very occasionally we would have invoices that didnt have POs and then they were forwarded to the manager responsible for signature. Any late fees or accounting mess ups were charged directly to that managers department.

      That said, we used to have an old school AP manager who literally would walk invoices around to get signatures. Thankfully when they retired, the new person transitioned to electronic approvals (ie an email saying ok to pay)

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Management needs to step in. If late fees are being incurred/in danger of being incurred, that’s a real cost. So is redoing close. If this is happening regularly, then maybe you delay final close for a few days.

      1. Indisch Blau*

        But what to say in a job interview? I wouldn’t want to say, “not my problem, management needs to step in” – even if that’s the case. Nor would I say, “What’s helped me in the past is to impose candy fines.”
        Is there a good answer? Or do you just register the information and weigh it if you’re offered the job?

        1. Me*

          You say something along the lines of examining the process to ensure there’s not things under your control that can be fixed such as moving the deadline, calling in a request instead of email etc obviously depending on what it is. Somewhere in there is a talk with the offenders to try to determine where the break down is happening and what can be done about it. And then yes finally barring all else, you bring it to management with a list of what you’ve tried to do to resolve the issue and ask for guidance.

          This is more or less what I’ve said during interviews and its received well.

        2. Cat Tree*

          Hmm, if the problem is widespread enough, you could develop a tracking system, preferably one that is mostly automated through an IT system. Then have it send automated reminders at a reasonable interval (typically monthly or weekly but a few types of work warrant more frequency), with direct manager copied when it reaches a certain criticality. I had moderate success with this strategy when I worked at a place with useless management.

          However, after working at a place like that I would only go back if I was desperate for a job, and I agree with your friend that it’s a bullet dodged.

    3. Louise*

      This is the story of my life. I am regularly forced to work with disorganized people that don’t do paperwork, but their job requires tons of paperwork. The best I have done is give them a clear deadline and when they don’t meet it alert our common manager. I have tried the bigger picture conversations with both manager and co-worker and it can help for a few weeks. Basically the manager needs to believe there is a need to step in and make this a performance issue.

      1. Cassidy*

        >…the manager needs to believe there is a need to step in and make this a performance issue.

        This, precisely. Would sure be nice to see accountability make a comeback.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I would have gone to the boss before now. I am not very patient with those who chronically don’t do their jobs.

      What I have seen done in some places is an annoucement is made that invoices not received by x time or y day will be rolled onto next month. Even then people can’t be bothered. There are those who will be totally shocked, “What do you mean I have to wait until next month to be paid?”

      Candy dish, really? No. This is the company’s money. Part of the job is to responsibily submit all invoices/whatever in a timely manner. If you cannot do that, then you are not doing one of the key components of the job.

    5. RagingADHD*

      I would talk about the fundamental problem that occurs when people are allowed to offload their responsibilities onto others to compensate. And how it’s important to understand your own sphere of influence and work effectively within it.

      My way of coping with that would be to talk to my own manager about how to properly give responsibility (and consequences) back to the right person.

      For example, setting a hard deadline for deliverables in a regular report that allows enough time to produce it. If the material isn’t provided timely their team gets a blank page in the report with “information not available,” or something similar.

      If the lateness causes someone to work overtime or incurs external fees or penalties, that needs to be documented so they are charged to the correct cost center. Then the lateness becomes the responsibility of the manager who is supposed to control those costs.

      Usually what’s going on in these scenarios is that someone junior is being forced to take responsibility and try to avert consequences that they have to authority to really change. Transparency about where the problem actually lies, and the issues it’s causing, can make a big difference.

    6. Bagpuss*

      I think you need management to get involved and to make very clear what the expectations are – e.g. a deadline as to when invoices have to be signed off and returned, and be very clear that failure to comply with the policies will result in disciplinary issues.
      Spell out the requirements and knock on effects

      e.g.
      – invoices MUST be checked and approved, and submitted to accounts, no later than days prior to the due date , or no later than x days prior to month end if sooner. (or whatever is appropriate)
      – In the event that invoices are not submitted within the timescale required, accounts cannot guarantee that they will be processed / paid by the due date.
      – It is the responsibility of the individual receiving the invoice to ensure that it is signed off and submitted to accounts within the required timescales.

      Failure to follow these processes will be a disciplinary matter .

      I’d also explicitly spell out that accounts are having to re-do work and to work late in order to cover for other staff failing to submit requests in a timely way, and that this is not acceptable, nor is it their responsibility.
      –
      And then follow through

      1. Malika*

        I second spelling out the requirements. Additionaly i’d suggest a how- to about the whole process from A to Z and clear dates and cut off times to hand in invoices. As a former assistant, part of my responsibilities was making sure the executives approved the invoices and allocated it to the right cost center. I found it very confusing, because at the beginning there were no instructions on which invoices needed to be handled/split in the right way and constantly had to remind the executives to have another look at invoices, sign them off again etc. Speaking from the other side of this process: An accountancy department that clearly spells out what is needed by when, makes life much easier.

    7. Rachel in NYC*

      I’m coming from a different field- but I handle this in a variety of ways depending on the situation, starting with reminders to the person(s), and then determining when it’s appropriate to bring in to the conversation their boss, my boss, coworkers, whoever. I vary the choice depending on the situation and what will result on creating pressure on the person I need a response from.

      I will say that something like “showing (or offering to show) the offenders how much work they’re causing her and threatening to take the problem to the boss” is unlikely to work. Most people aren’t impacted by the work they cause other people. That doesn’t impact them.

      Looping in a boss could be helpful. But I’m not sure threats of it would be useful. There needs to be a discussion in advance with the boss of Offenders A, B, C, and D have been regularly late with their invoices. This is causing the company to incur additional costs. The invoices need to be signed off by Date. If they aren’t received, what step would Boss like taken.

      If Boss is fine with the additional costs- you get it in writing and move on. Otherwise, you come up with a plan with Boss about handling it. Even if it’s just emailing Offenders A, B, C, and D at EOB on Date that their signed invoices haven’t been received cc:ing Boss.

    9. I miss my former great boss*

      Oh, this is a coincidence! I was recently asked the same question in an interview and one of my interviewers later commented how they liked my response. It was based on examples from a newsletter I subscribe to, meant to teach business analysts how to motivate people to do what we want. It’s called Behavioral Insights for Business Analysts (single payment for a year’s subscription, I think it cost me $54).

      In my answer I talked about how we are used to try rational arguments to persuade people, but in reality behavioral science offers more effective approaches (change the environment to make the desired behavior easier to adopt, use social proof, etc.).

      I’m having great success with the techniques I’ve learned so far to address struggles at my current job too. If you have the book Influence from Robert Cialdini, and don’t want another paid resource, I recommend rereading it for ideas, but if you can spare the money, I’d subscribe to the newsletter because you’ll get examples that match exactly the kinds of scenario individual contributors without positional power face all the time when trying to get others to change their behavior. To check it out go to bealprojects dot com > Learning Center (Issue 1 can be downloaded for free there–I don’t want my colleagues to read it and figure out what I’m up to, but glad to share with a complete stranger who might find it useful too ;-).

  12. Anxious Overdresser*

    I’m starting a new job Monday! The interviews were all over Zoom (where everyone was at home and wearing tee-shirts), but the first week will be (masked) and in person.

    HR sent out an email containing the dress code, which was dated from 2015 and called for “business professional light” clarifying “dark shoes, ties unnecessary.” Cool! Except I’m a lady who doesn’t wear ties, and I get incredibly flustered and anxious if I feel overdressed (I’m well aware it’s better to be overdressed than underdressed. Still get super flustered!)

    I’ve only ever worked with males in a business casual setting and struggles to get female professional dress norms anyways. (This team will also be all male, except for me). What do I wear? Suck it up and go full skirt suit? Nice dress and bring a blazer just in case? Do I have to wear heels (flustered + heels = clumsy combo!) Do I sound unprofessional if I ask HR to clarify?

    1. OyHiOh*

      I would ask HR to clarify expectations for women’s dress. Barring clarification, I’d wear dressy slacks, sleek blouse, and blazer, and flat shoes.

    2. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I think you’d be totally fine to ask HR to clarify!
      Definitely don’t wear heels if you don’t want to or feel comfortable in them. You might be walking around meeting new people or learning where things are, and I think a wobbly heel is more unprofessional than a smart flat. I think you should aim to be as boringly polished as possible until you see what your coworkers actually wear. I like the dress and blazer idea.

    3. JokeyJules*

      do you have a contact there you could ask? Perhaps your new manager, or even the hiring manager. I’d just ask for any insights or examples so you can acclimate.

    4. Managing In*

      Wear something you feel comfortable and confident in for the first day and adjust up or down from there. The “light” tells me no, you absolutely don’t need heels and a full skirt suit unless YOU feel your best in that. Nice dress and wear the blazer. Or wear pants. It is not unprofessional to wear nice slacks, a blazer, and flats.

      Disregard if you are in something known to be extremely formal like finance, I’m not familiar with that.

    5. NotAPirate*

      I would go with a nice collared shirt with a suit jacket and slacks or skirt depending on your preference. Collared shirt because if it turns out no one else is in suit jackets you can just take it off and still be formal looking. I would go with flats or low heel (<2in) just so your comfortable. Whatever you feel confident walking in. It's the first time for alot of them back in person too it sounds like so I bet everyone will be re-adapting to the dress code.

      For me I rank outfits like this;
      Most professional
      Full suit (Collared shirt + suit jacket)
      Partial suit (nice blouse + suit jacket)
      Nice blouse + sweater/other jacket
      Collared shirt, no jacket
      polo short sleeves
      tshirt and jeans
      Least professional

      Pant/skirt wise – unless in a couple specific fields they are interchangeable. Black pants seem more common than khakis but that's pretty regional. Grey (suit material) pants also common.
      Dresses – depends on the dress honestly, they can range anywhere from very casual (sundress, thinner straps) to very formal. Length, material, what you accessorize with (suit jack over dress vs sweater etc).

      One of my fav bosses always did a long sleeve collared shirt and wore a cotton-polyester long sleeve sweater over it. Looked pretty casual that way. Then for meetings you'd always see him pulling off the sweater and pulling on the exact same blazer he kept in his office. Looked formal that way. It was a little bit Mr. Rogers style the way he'd swap. Try and go for something like that were you can swap your formality levels.

    6. Hawkeye is in the details*

      I think you’re fine to ask for clarification from HR! Point out that you know norms have changed in this last year, and you’re wondering if professional slacks, blouse and cardigan or blazer (or whatever your ideal combo would be) are acceptable for your time in the office.

      I think closed toe, professional flats are a safe bet. No expectation of heels of men don’t have to wear ties.

      If you don’t want to contact HR, the above mentioned combo strikes the right balance, I think.

    7. BadWolf*

      If ties are unnecessary, I feel like skirts and heels are unnecessary (unless you are comfy in a skirt). I would not wear heels if you are not comfortable in them. I agree on dress pants, blouse, blazer (or nice button front shirt if you don’t have a blazer) and flats/nice shoes of some kind.

      1. ABK*

        this. no ties on men, no heals on me. Flats are soooooo common and accepted. Blazers are nice because you can take it off it it’s too formal, maybe bring a cardigan in case you’re too formal and too cold.

    8. Amtelope*

      Dress and blazer, or slacks (black dress pants are a very neutral/safe choice), simple shell/blouse, and blazer. If they don’t require ties, I can’t imagine they require heels.

      A dress code that mentions men’s clothes but not women’s clothes is a pretty good marker for a company that assumes employees = male. Keep an eye out for that in other ways (Does this company have a maternity leave policy? Does it sound like it was written by people who have for a single minute imagined that an employee might actually be pregnant? Etc.)

    9. Not So NewReader*

      You can wear a jacket but take the jacket off if you feel over dressed.

      For flustering, I like to make sure my clothes fit me properly and the colors are things I am comfortable wearing.
      You could start out with a very plain, classic look and then tweak as you go.

      I hope you chuckle. My boss was picking out something for me for Christmas. She was trying to decide between two sweaters. Her friend (I see the friend often) chimed in to say, “Oh, Not So New wears classics. Get this sweater.” My boss laughed and bought that sweater. When she told me what her friend said, “I said yep, I actually prefer the cooler clothes, but I wear the classics because it saves tons of money as I don’t have to keep buying clothes.”

      1. Anxious Overdresser*

        Yes, I totally understand the employees = male assumption, as my former company has only had 3 female employees in its 25 year history (none overlapping with me). It’s been a struggle! Luckily, the new company is actually headquartered in Europe, so maternity leave would be 4 months (!!!) but the (small) local office with the dress code is all male. I’m cautiously optimistic that this will be an improvement. Thanks for the advice!

      2. Anxious Overdresser*

        Sorry – meant to reply above – but I did laugh at your story! My business casual is 100% classics as well because it’s so low hassle – I imagine “business professional light” would also fall into this!

    10. LadyByTheLake*

      Attorney here — full skirt suits, even as “business professional heavy” went out of fashion in about 1996. I would read this as slacks, dressy flats or heels, a nice top (nice sweater or blouse)

    11. Chriama*

      Standards of dress are generally more flexible for women than for men, just because the range of women’s styles is a lot wider. I never wear heels and strongly believe they have no bearing on business formal (it’s a hill I’d be willing to die on, professionally speaking), but a full on skirt suit seems on the high end of business formal. A nice dress with or without a blazer makes sense, but so does a blouse/dress shirt and dress pants if that’s what you’re more comfortable in.

      Also, it’s definitely not unprofessional to ask HR to clarify! Business professional light could mean “we’re an incredibly stodgy place trying to lighten up a bit”, or it could mean “we said business casual and had people arguing their dark wash jeans counted as dress pants”. The clarification of “dark shoes” rather than “dress shoes” has me leaning towards the former, unless that was a typo.

      If you’re really worried, pick something that looks good with or without a blazer, and bring the blazer as backup. So a nice dress or blouse+pants/skirt combo would work with out without a blazer, but a skirt suit without the blazer would look unfinished. I hope that makes sense!

    12. Haha Lala*

      I agree with what everyone’s said so far, but also have this to add:
      If you’re the only woman on a team full of men, you’ll have a little leeway for determining your own dress code. Speaking from experience as the only female engineer in an office of 20+ men, your wardrobe will stick out from the rest of the team’s no matter what, so don’t worry about being a little overdressed. Wear something you’re comfortable in and you feel looks professional.

      I find that jewelry can make any outfit slightly dressier. You could wear something that doesn’t “feel” overdressed, but add a pretty necklace and instantly look more polished.

      1. Quinalla*

        Agreed as a woman who works with mostly men that you can very much set your own dress code. Dress codes are honestly not set up well for women’s fashion as women’s fashion is much more variable.

        And yeah, don’t feel bad about clarifying the dress code. I always do this for new companies, unfamiliar situations, etc. No one has ever batted an eye at me asking or acted like I was silly for doing so.

    13. Distractinator*

      My advice, any dress code is really specifying a range of what’s ok; so figure out the male dress code, set your mental picture of that range as precisely as possible, and then mimic it with whatever from your closet feels similar. Dark shoes, ties unnecessary? Implies collared shirt with the top button open, maybe loafers and khakis would be standard for male dress (what I think of as my-dad-the-engineer’s outfit, that’s always a checkered or striped shirt). The tendency to aim slightly higher on the first day means solid-colored collar shirt rather than patterned, grey or black slacks instead of khakis, black leather laced shoes rather than loafers. So the women’s dress code equivalent? Certainly doesn’t require a skirt or heels. This is exactly the midground of my workplace, exactly the range of what an “average day” looks like. Look in your closet and see what you’ve got – my go-to at this level is grey pants, black rubber-soled mary-janes, a solid-colored long-sleeved blouse, then depending on season maybe a cardigan, soft blazer (they make really comfy knit ones that feel more like a cardigan!) or maybe decorative scarf or necklace if it’s too warm for layers.

  13. cabbagepants*

    How to walk the line between “being a team player” but also getting the credit, accolades, raises, etc that you deserve for work you did well? For reference, I am a white woman in a male-dominated field and there there is one person in particular who consistently takes credit for my work.

    In my annual performance review, my boss told me that I did really good work this year BUT I needed to not put so much emphasis on when *I* have done something rather than “a team effort.” I always give credit where credit is due, but also struggled this year with having my work attributed to the nearest man. In fact, I almost missed out on a big promotion because everyone assumed that a particularly important, high visibility project was being done by my male colleague “Jim” when in fact I made it a success with no help or input from Jim at all. Jim consistently takes credit for my work AND he’s on my team, so “a team effort” gets turned into “Jim did this” almost by default.

    Any advice? My boss is generally focused on his own day-to-day drama. I can’t get away from Jim and anyway, Jim isn’t the only one doing this. My boss does *try* to be relatively open-minded about social issues but also is a terrible gossip so I’m not sure how to be clear about the issue without having him trample the already-delicate politics around Jim.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Honestly? I think you should consider leaving this job. A place that routinely allows your work to be credited to someone else, and what little credit you are allowed is apparently too much and should be spread to others? This is a culture that isn’t going to let you succeed, I think you’re better off finding a job somewhere else that does want you to succeed.

      1. ArtK*

        I agree. There’s a bad culture here and I doubt it’s possible to change it. At least not without being labeled an “aggressive” woman, or “shrill”, or any of those other adjectives used to tell women to shut up and sit down.

        1. m&m*

          Yep. If you can’t even explain to your boss *why* you have to work so hard to emphasize your own achievements because they are too busy tip toeing around Jim, the one who is making the problems happen, then I can’t see a solution that doesn’t ruffle many feathers.

          If you don’t mind upsetting people, then continue taking credit for work you did and if you can, shut Jim and his ilk down in the moment if they get credit for your stuff in meetings, reports, etc. But I don’t see a long term answer that doesn’t involve a new team.

      2. Librarian of SHIELD*

        I agree with this. Basically, your boss has decided it’s cool if all the credit goes to Jim and “the team” and none of it goes to anybody else, and that makes him not a very good boss. Start job searching and find a place that will respect you in the way you deserve.

    2. LDN Layabout*

      Can you break it down into something like lead, support, helpful?

      So instead of a team effort, you led on the project and Jim provided reports X and Y which were helpful. Or you did X, Y and Z, with support from Jimmy in A.

    3. Threeve*

      Give up on being a team player. Get territorial. If you continue to get criticism about not being a team player, well…all of us have our faults. Jim obviously gets to have his. Boss can continue to be unhappy with it. If he brings it up again you can continue to explain why you feel it’s appropriate if you want, or you can plead ignorance (“oh, I didn’t realize I was doing that.”)

      “Actually, I flew solo on that one, Jim has been exclusively on [x] lately.”
      “I’ve been mostly working independently lately, that was one of my projects. I’m really pleased it’s been well-received.”
      “Our team definitely produces some great work collaboratively, but each of us does a lot independently, too; I handled that one from start to finish.”
      “Jim mostly works on [x], I’m not sure why there’s an assumption that he’s involved in everything–there’s only so many hours in the day! [Y] was pretty much just mine from start to finish.”

    4. Shirley Keeldar*

      Oooh, I’m mad.

      What would happen if you asked your boss exactly this? “So, Boss, I have been thinking about your feedback at my performance review. I really value my team; they’re great at X and Y. Of course I want to give credit where it’s due! But it seems that others in the company aren’t always aware of what I’m working on. For example, I almost missed out on a promotion because people thought Jim had been handling the Marigold project, when that was my project from the beginning. What do you think is a good way to handle this? And of course, I’m sure you know that women are frequently advised not to claim credit for their work, but men are not, and that can lead to real gender imbalances in the workplace. Just out of curiosity, did you tell any of your male reports that they shouldn’t claim credit for their accomplishments and should instead praise their team?”

      Okay, leave out the last two sentences if you think he’ll get salty. But grrrrrrrr.

      1. Kes*

        Yeah, I would bring it up again with boss in your next check-in: “I was thinking about your feedback and I think the reason that I sometimes am insistent on credit is that I’ve found if I don’t say something people don’t seem to know what I did. For example, I found out that people thought Jim was responsible for x project when actually I was running it and he wasn’t even involved. As you may know, this is kind of a common problem for women in this field, so I want to make sure both that my team gets the credit they’re due for their work, and that I get the credit I’m due for mine. And I’ve also found that if people don’t know about the work I’m currently doing they may not think to ask or nominate me for other opportunities that can leverage it, so I want to make sure they have that information.”
        If you know for a fact that the promotion was due to that you can cite that as well.

      2. cabbagepants*

        I like the question of “how should I handle this?” !
        1) Reiterate on how I almost missed a promotion due to higher up folks not knowing what I was doing (this is not something I have to tiptoe around, thankfully).
        2) How should I handle this, since obviously it is best for the organization to have the right work be done by the right people?

        1. Shirley Keeldar*

          Your #2 point is so great. Of COURSE you are concerned with what’s best for the company…such a team player! He can’t argue with that!

      3. MacGillicuddy*

        This. Absolutely point out to boss about how you almost missed a promotion because of this. How boss reacts will tell you how fast you need to polish your resume and job hunt.
        And ask him point blank “so, if I’m the sole contributor on a project, why should I credit the team with doing it?”

      4. pcake*

        Actually I’d absolutely go with that last sentence, but then I’m known to be “brutally honest” – and that really is a quote.

    5. should i apply?*

      I feel your pain. While I haven’t been been told I need to be a better team player, I did just sit through a company wide meeting, where our CEO gave credit for a successful project to a male colleague who did maybe half the work I did on it. Its one of the reasons I am actively looking for a new job. My manager knows I do the work, but it doesn’t penetrate the upper levels.

    6. Choggy*

      I’m really confused how someone else can get the credit for an important, high visibility project you handled alone? When I handle a project there is usually a kick-off meeting where I provide the project plan and why it’s being done, and who is involved (even if it’s only me). I’m constantly providing updates, from the start to the end of the project, I coordinate and facilitate any meetings, provide training/documentation as necessary, etc. How did you make it clear to your company that you were the one handling the entire project (especially after it was attributed to someone who contributed nothing? You should really take a long, hard look at the company you are working for, people who have no qualms about taking credit for, and, this is the most important part, being ALLOWED to take credit for your work is not a place I’d want to be. Why should you have to fight to be recognized, and then, when doing so are told to be a team player? Nah, you’re better than that!

      1. cabbagepants*

        The challenge is that there is so much work going on all the time, it’s hard to draw attention to individual projects. Jim taking credit is pretty insidious. For example, the culture in my company is that if a question is asked, the person who answers it is the lead/expert/owner of the topic or issue. This is culture and not written or formalized. But when a question is asked about my work, Jim will jump in and loudly answer. These answers are often incorrect so then I have to correct him, but he doesn’t acknowledge that he was wrong, just interrupts as soon as he realizes what I’m getting at and repeats what I said as if it was his idea.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          Getting interrupted while trying to provide the right information so *he* can still take credit for answering would burn me up! More so if the rest of the crowd just allowed it. How would Jim respond if, when he’s giving the wrong info, you just said “That’s incorrect” and let it hang there until he stopped talking or flailed around to correct himself or (best, but least likely) someone asked *you* for the correct information.

          Do you have any allies? Anyone who could make sure you get to talk or respond by calling you by name? I’m really appreciating our entirely virtual culture right now where if someone gets talked over, the person who talked over them addresses it with “Sorry I cut you off, Name, what were you saying?” Or the host will speak up to give the stage to Name if it was clear they were trying to add something.

          That would be the short term solution but ultimately, as your boss is of the mindset that credit is something your colleagues get to claim but you don’t, and more, he’s okay with Jim claiming credit for your work and not okay with you getting your own credit, that’s not an environment where you can be successful. Your boss and your coworker suck.

          1. Quinalla*

            Yes, I would push harder against Jim, but stay polite and professional and yes recruit allies. Other women if there are any, men if not – especially others that are victims of Jim, and say I’ll speak up for you if you speak up for me. It will make your group all looks like “team players” and help give credit to people who deserve it.

        2. Bex*

          Honestly, I think you might need to start calling it out and politely shutting Jim down. For example, when Jim tries to jump in say “Thanks Jim, but since I lead this project I think I’m best placed to answer the question. If he tries to interrupt, say “Just a moment please” and continue talking. In my experience, the key is to keep your tone in the “helpful and friendly, and slightly confused as to why Jim is talking” range, without letting your frustration show.

        3. Choggy*

          Does Jim do this to anyone else, or just to you? Have you spoken with him directly and asked him not to answer questions about your work? Have that conversation, and then make sure to reiterate when he speaks for you with the statement that you can respond for yourself.

      2. starsaphire*

        Not the OP, but, for example:

        * A male co-worker used to do an end-run around me and handle the kickoff meetings himself. I’d schedule the meeting and be told ‘we already had it,’ or I’d be left cooling my heels in the lobby waiting for my guests to show up and he’d have let them in another door and started the meeting without me. And every time I complained, I got told “that’s just how he is, ignore it.”

        * A different male co-worker would send belittling “thanks for doing the paperwork” emails after I sent out the materials/documentation to the team, to make it look like I was an admin just handling the details, while he was calling all the shots.

        That’s how.

        OP, please, start looking yesterday. This management chain will never value you, and resents constantly being reminded that they made a poor hire in Jim.

    7. Cat Tree*

      With good management, “team player” means each person has a specific role on the project so your boss should already have a good idea of what you are contributing to the project. It sounds like poor management and that’s hard to deal with.

    8. voyager1*

      Did you ask for examples of when you were being to “self centered” vs “team centered.” This is one of things you have to address in the moment of the review.

      1. cabbagepants*

        I did ask. The only example he had was the fact that I send my boss a weekly report of my own activities in addition to the team report that goes out to everyone. When I reminded him that HE asked me to send this report, he just said “I know.”

        Big WTF moment.

        1. Chriama*

          That… is not a good look for your manager. I’m curious what would have happened if you’d responded to his “I know” with “so you’re asking me to stop doing something you told me to do? I’m not really sure how to implement your feedback now.” I think you can probably still go back and talk to him. Rather than asking for examples of what you did wrong, ask him to tell you what behaviours he actually wants from you. If he can’t articulate any, I would push back with him (really emphasize the gendered nature of his criticism, ask if he’s given the same feedback to your male colleagues and if not, what makes you different, and emphasize the promotion you almost missed out on) depending on how much you like your job, what you’re willing to risk, and how much capital you have to spend.

    9. Policy Wonk*

      Your boss is sexist. Women are supposed to be team players, men are supposed to get the credit. Keep doing what you are doing, and start looking for a new job.

      It sounds to me like Jim might be priming the pump by whining to the boss that you are taking credit for his work. The next time your boss raises this (trust me, he will) ask for examples of what he means – where did you take credit for someone else’s work? If he has a valid example, it may reframe this, but I’d guess he will highlight something that you did and Jim has taken credit for – then you can set him straight.

      You might also want to keep documentation of who does/has done what on projects to pull out when needed. Jim is likely taking credit for others’ work as well – so if you can point out that no, that was actually done by Fergus, it will add to your credibility.

      2. Lizzo*

        Yes, asking for examples can be a powerful way to shut things down. At a previous job, I had been in the role a year when a new manager was hired (the one who hired me had left about 9 months after I started with the organization). After a month, boss called me into her office and said she’d had complaints about me. I asked for specific examples; she had none. I mentioned three recent issues that I could think of that might have generated complaints, explained how I’d resolved each of those issues, and asked, “Were the complaints about those things?” Answer: no.

        I said, “I can’t address something undefined–I really need specific examples. Please raise them when you have them and we can work on them.” It was terrifying to push back and set a boundary, especially with a boss who didn’t know me well, but in retrospect, it was the right call, and my boss eventually respected me because of it.

        Now, it sounds like this approach might not go as well in your workplace, but it’s worth trying. In the meantime, you should definitely be job searching.

    10. The Rural Juror*

      A female friend of mine DID miss out on a promotion because a male coworker took credit for her work. Not only that, she missed out on a huge commission check. That jerk took hard-earned recognition and money from her, and unfortunately her manager didn’t do anything to correct the situation. So she quit and went to work for their competitor, where she’s doing much better and seems to be happier.

      I know it’s easier said than done to just find something else, but remember that you don’t owe anything to this company. Do what you need to to advocate for and take care of yourself. GOOD LUCK!!!

    11. James*

      Your boss is too focused on day-to-day drama to effectively manage his teams, he’s allowing people to take credit for work they didn’t do, he’s criticizing you for it, and he’s obviously playing favorites. This place is dysfunctional.

      The best advice is to get out. You won’t fix the situation, and there’s not much value to sticking around.

      Until then, as others have stated, start out any project with a kickoff meeting where everyone’s roles are clearly defined. Then, make sure people stick to it.

  14. Rock Prof*

    I’ve had some graduates from my program recently email me about how they’re having trouble finding jobs. For most of them, I think it’s a combination of competition with more experienced people looking for jobs who might have lost their jobs due to covid, as well as applying out of state for entry level positions. But this got me thinking about their cover letters because, well, some of them are terrible.
    A lot of the jobs that the graduates are looking at are very focused on specific skills, thinking digging holes or using a microscope, that have been taught in their classes, so I’m hoping this would be an okay place and time for them to talk about class work when they don’t have much experience outside of it.
    I was looking through the archives here and coming up a bit short, but I was wondering if anyone had links or examples to good cover letters for those who are straight-out-of-college. I’m basically just telling them to make sure that their cover letter really discuss examples of how they actually have the background the jobs wants them to have versus being a generic, “I have experience with geology!” statement.

      1. Rock Prof*

        Thanks! That seems most applicable to grad students, so I’m not sure how well it will work for my undergrads but there’s definitely some overlap. (I realize now when I wrote “graduates” that I went students who have recently graduated from my program which is only undergrad and not graduate students.)

        1. NotAPirate*

          Ah, I usually use “undergrads” and “grads” so that led to the mix-up.

          Make sure they’re not repeating their resume, I see that a lot with undergrads. The cover letter shouldn’t say anything the resume does basically. It’s for the stuff that didn’t fit on the resume, the why do you want to work for XYZ company, how did you hear about job/connection to company, (show you’ve researched them). Describing how a project you did is similar to their specialty and led you to want to work more in that specialty and how excited you are for the chance to pursue this with company XYZ. If really no projects then you’re stuck with coursework and going for a class mentioned topic ABC and that led me to research it further on my own and develop a passion for it. Also put a timeline in, make sure to mention the graduation date and how looking to start immediately (that’ll give them an edge over seniors looking for jobs now too). If it’s out of state also add the trying to relocate line too. Here’s a more experienced geologist cover letter at least https://imgur.com/nmpGuwZ .

          Also for the resume, tell them to stress what leadership they had. They have more leeway as undergrad resumes. Volunteer experience can still be listed, board member of college clubs can be listed, any scholarships or deans list can be included in an achievements section. Also sometimes still list your high school summer jobs on an undergrad resume – it shows history of work ethic. Also how good are the things they list under the jobs? Make sure they’re listing achievements at jobs not just worked date to date. (Supervised and maintained schedule for 3 employees; Reduced wait times; reads better than just worked at Ice Cream Shack May-September). Another big one is matching keywords in job descriptions to their resume the computer looks for them, if they’re not getting interviews they may not be getting to the point where a person is even seeing it.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I don’t have any examples but definitely encourage them to fricken spell. it. out. Their cover letter should be full of examples of them using that particular skill since they don’t have any workplace experience yet. Did they use it in a class? TA for a lab? Do research with a professor? If the jobs are focused on that one skill they should feel like their cover letter is hitting the hiring manager over the head with stories of them doing it.

      1. Rock Prof*

        Thanks, this is exactly what I’ve been trying to tell them. The job’s are literally listing what they want you to be able to do, you need to spell out that you have actually been successful at that!
        One of my graduates listed that they enjoy “hands-on work” in their cover letter, and I was told them that they should instead give examples of how they can work in challenging conditions instead (like digging holes in the rain or whatever). Like it’s a job for a field geologist! Everything is “hands-on!” Show them you’re up to it!

        1. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

          In early versions of my résumé and cover letters when I was looking for my first field jobs (I’m an archaeologist but I reckon it’s fairly similar) I included quite a few details about what exactly I did during course work.

          We have to do “field school” which is usually a few weeks at least of working on a real excavation project and learning to use various bits of equipment and techniques, so I’d definitely write about that. Like the general date of the site, the actual weather (especially if anything dramatic happened like a big thunderstorm that flooded all the trenches or ridiculously hot weather that turned to soil into concrete and how you dealt with it), whether you got to use semi specialist gear (augur, laser scanner, handheld xrf) or circumstances (confined spaces, working at height, having to trek in to remote areas on foot, camping on site). Doesn’t have to be a long account but a little blurb about it. Also if they have their own suitable transportation, which is definitely a factor in field work in my area these days. There are urban jobs where you can get to site via public transportation but you’re more likely to get hired if you can drive yourself there.

  15. MD-to-industry?*

    I’m an MD/PhD (post-residency/board-certified, currently completing another board-accredited fellowship in an in-demand area) trying to transition into industry mid-2021 but have been discouraged by the lack of response so far. My ideal would be a physician-scientist type role in R&D that’s relevant to my subspeciality (genomics) and prior PhD background (early stage drug discovery), but I could see myself doing well in medical affairs or other R&D roles too. I’ve applied to 5-6 biotech/pharma jobs over the past 6 weeks that I thought would fit my skill set (associate medical director, or roles requesting someone of my specialty specifically, with 0-3 years industry experience) and haven’t heard back from any of them yet for even just a phone screen. I’ve been trying my best to use my network. I have a complete, active LinkedIn account and have been searching for 2nd and 3rd degree connections who might work at industry organizations I’m interested in. I’ve asked my contacts for leads with mixed/no results. Any other tips?

    1. SnowWhiteClaw*

      Five or six jobs over 6 weeks? I had to apply for about 50 jobs before I found a scientific job. Keep trying! You also might have to be willing to relocate.

      1. MD-to-industry?*

        I’ve made it clear on my resume that while I’m currently completing my training in city A, I’m looking to relocate back to my hometown of city X/region Y (a mid-sized hub for biotech) in July 2021. Due to a number of family/dependent issues, I’m not to search with total geographic freedom (i.e., the Bay Area hub is unfortunately not an option for me).

        I wish I could apply for 50+ jobs, but there aren’t that many relevant medical director track openings for people with no/little prior industry experience, especially in my specialty.

    2. Lora*

      Big Pharma geek here.

      In hardcore molecular bio R&D we are typically looking for, and get loads of CVs from, people with at least one and often two industry postdocs. Where you’d probably be a better fit would be clinical trial type work, which often has a couple of in-house folks working with a clinical trial management company like Parexel or IQVIA. We do almost none of that in-house. For medical affairs we typically look for someone with some experience in patient care, depending on the level can be a little or a lot, but for higher level roles we usually want, you know, 10 years of caring for AIDS patients in DRC type of thing; most of the medical affairs directors I’ve known have come from 15+ years in a hospital or large clinic with previous experience running clinical trials.

      Also 6 weeks is not at all long for us. We move sloooooowww. I’ve applied for jobs via my network (in other words, someone who already works there sent my CV and vouched for me, I didn’t have to wrangle automated screening software) and heard back only 3-6 months later. Our hiring process just for a regular entry level bachelor’s degree job takes, at last complaint to HR, 100 days on average. Senior level job searches take over a year, sometimes two, while the headhunters talk the hiring managers down from whatever Purple Squirrel combination of skills and experience they insist is absolutely necessary. Senior level CVs usually come to us from headhunters or from our network, and resumes coming from someone completely unknown are …well, we don’t know you, and we don’t know anyone who knows you. That’s not to say you aren’t qualified, but out of the 50 reasonably-qualified CVs on our desk, we probably have some kind of connection to at least 5 of them. We will definitely prefer someone with industry experience, even only a couple of years, if we can get them.

      Targeting the smaller biotechs is a good idea, I think you just have to be super patient with the slowness of the process. I wouldn’t bother trying to contact 3rd degree LI contacts, and for 2nd degree contacts ask your mutual friend to introduce you first – we get plenty of random people contacting us and mostly ignore them. Since we do so much through headhunters, it may be worth trying to find one or two who can help specifically with the clients you’re looking for, pharma recruiters are usually specialists more familiar with the technical lingo. You may also want to consider the clinical CROs – that’s definitely a stepping stone and will significantly broaden your network, as when clients of the CRO like you a lot, they will be interested enough to approach you with “hey, how about you come to the other side?” type of offers.

      1. MD-to-industry?*

        Thank you for those insights! I’m in pathology (doing further training in molecular genetic pathology aka genomic medicine/diagnostics), not a patient-facing specialty, so I don’t think I’d be the the best choice for a clinical trial management type role.

        It’s good to know that hiring takes longer than I previously thought. The issue is that I’ve also applied for academic physician faculty positions as backups, which also have notoriously slow hiring processes, but I’m at the final interview stage with several places right now. (I don’t see myself staying in academia, but from talking w/ others in my specialty who’ve transitioned to industry, many of them did work as attendings in an academic medical center for a few years first. So my plan B is to be an attending for 2-3 years, continue growing my pubs including some senior authorships, then job search in industry again.) There’s one role in particular at a big name institution that I would be pretty foolish to turn down if offered, if I have no other compelling job offers by then.

        I’ll see if I can find headhunters. I’ve tried one so far, but she didn’t understand my specialty and was sending me totally off-base job suggestions (jobs requiring only bachelor’s degrees, doing bench work, making a salary similar to what I’m making as a PGY trainee), but hopefully there are folks out there who might help get me what I’m looking for (or give me a reality check if that’s not realistic at my career stage).

        1. Lora*

          No, you know what, pathology is still good for clinical trial mgmt because a LOT of that is about reading diagnostics and pathology reports and trying to piece things together about patients you’ve never seen. (“Oh, look at this interesting subgroup…”) They’ll have some data sets off monitoring devices patients are wearing or something like that, and it’ll be RNs and NPs doing the actual patient interactions. I wouldn’t discount looking at places like Parexel / IQVIA / Covance, they also have loads of Medical Director and similar roles – and they have a lot (A LOT) more of those roles than pharma does, in various and sundry locations. Like I said, we will have like…ehhhh a handful of people at most, and their job is largely interacting with our CROs, and they are based where our large sites are. We don’t really do that stuff ourselves, we rarely even do our own tox screening.

          The other thing that may be a problem for you if you have to live in a certain area – there’s a nonzero amount of travel involved. It’s not as much as I do personally (I have to go to sites we are building out for often a few months at a time, run back and forth to European headquarters every so often), but you still have to sometimes go places for meetings and it won’t be remote after Covid. Like when we are setting up a new collaboration or a new trial / project / whatever with Major Health Center, the medical directors have to go there too, so we can exchange coffee cups and whatnot. Or if god forbid something goes wrong and you have to investigate personally what happened because nobody on the phone gives you a straight answer, you have to get on a plane and go. I do not know of any Director level person anywhere who does not travel more than they want to, and the only ones who have not had to relocate at least twice are near retirement age at this point.

      2. MochaJane*

        Are post docs mostly/always necessary for biotech/pharmacy jobs? I’d rather avoid another “training position” where I’m doing the work of a research scientist for 1/2 the pay.

        1. MD-to-industry?*

          I’m certainly not planning to postdoc. If I take an attending faculty position in my subspecialty, I’d most likely be making $250-$350K (depending on the geographic area/academic vs private practice) my first year. In industry I’m willing to take a slightly lower base salary (excluding bonuses/other compensation) if there’s growth potential within a few years.

          1. MochaJane*

            Wow that’s awesome and a far cry away from a post doc salary! I’m going to try for research scientist positions myself (finishing my PhD this summer).

        2. Lora*

          For biotech PhD level and up, the only time I’ve seen them not on someone’s CV was when the person started working there as a Master’s level scientist and went back for the PhD after they’d been working a while – then they already had a track record to point to. Without previous experience in the field, coming directly out of a PhD…I’m not gonna say it never ever happens, but I’ve only seen it at very small startups paying peanuts anyway, so…same difference and less prestige than a Novartis / Pfizer / Merck level postdoc.

          Key thing about industry postdocs as opposed to academic ones though – the pay is $60-70k, but the hours are Normal Sane Person hours, and you get a very reasonable amount of structure, guidance etc or you can get it easily enough by asking in most places. You’re not working yourself to the bone 80+ hours/week, you’re not supervising Masters students, you are Doing Science 40-50 hours/week and nothing else, you can focus on it, and you can have a reasonable quality of life. You don’t get stuck in it for years, either, which I know academic postdocs can be these horrible indefinite servitude type of deal. Knew a dude once who postdoc’ed for 14 years. Same postdoc. He said he really liked his PI so didn’t quit, but that’s a very long time not to have full benefits or a retirement account in my opinion…

    3. Cat Tree*

      My advice is just patience. Desirable industries can get hundreds of applications per posting, even for higher level roles and especially in this economy. Consider looking for an adequate but relevant job somewhere else, then keep checking the big places for openings that you are qualified for and apply as you have been doing. But it could take several years for that to work out, so in the meantime at least you have a paycheck and won’t feel as much pressure.

      You might also consider expanding your search and looking at jobs that are one level lower than your current goal. There’s a balance and you don’t want to be too over qualified, but sometimes you need to enter the company at a lower level and work your way up from the inside.

      1. MD-to-industry?*

        Thank you, but that’s pretty far outside my target sector. I’m targeting companies like Abbvie, Abbott, Novartis, Eli Lilly, GSK, Genentech, Roche, AstraZeneca, etc.

    5. Handwashing Hero*

      Agreed on this as biotech/pharma person, 5-6 job apps is NOTHING. As an aside I have 15 years experience in the industry and was looking for something specific (WFH position) but I sent out hundreds of applications over the last 9 months of pandemic searching.

      This is not academia, you do not send in one or two lovely apps and go through the process. Most places don’t glance at your application or see you haven’t been in the industry and don’t want to bother to train you up. Which sorry to be a bummer but $250k for a starting scientist in R&D is going to break your heart. Aka, not going to happen.

      I wish you luck but be prepared to be sending in 5-6 applications A DAY. You’re targeting the big pharma companies, well so is everyone else and they likely have the luxury of working in pharma a long time to get noticed by the bigger companies.

      1. MD-to-industry?*

        I’m not looking for a starting scientist position, though — I’m looking for an associate medical director role. I’ve searched Glassdoor and asked some senior MD colleagues in pharma, and they say low 200s with generous year-end bonuses (1/4 to 1/3 salary) is pretty typical for associate medical directors, with a bump up to 250ish base once you get promoted to full medical director.

        1. Handwashing Hero*

          Okay sure, but do you have the skills for an associate medical director role? Pharma is very much less about what degrees you have and more about what skills and experience you bring to the table. Just trying to share my experience from it, it’s a very different world than Academia. That’s a pretty large role to walk into when you haven’t worked a drug product from development phase to commercialization.

            1. Sam*

              In your original post you mentioned that your PhD involved early stage drug discovery. Are you aiming to stay closer to discovery/preclinical or move towards clinical development? I’m guessing the latter. With the combo of pathology and genomic medicine, you might be able to target specific functions within one of those companies like biomarker/CDx development.

    6. Lizzo*

      A friend of mine works as a…career counselor? freelance recruiter? not sure how to describe her, but her specialty is STEM professionals looking to make career changes (e.g. to industry).

      I won’t include a link because that will send this to moderation but the site is scientific -hyphen- connections dot com. Her name is Merle. Good info on her website!

    7. Tacocat*

      Would you consider medical communications? That way you’re working with pharma clients and making connections. It wouldn’t pay 200k right out of the gate but you would get hired really fast and I’ve seen a lot of scientists transition to large pharma companies from agencies.

    8. Jobbyjob*

      It seems like a lot of folks answering you are not as familiar with the parts of industry that you are trying to apply to. I think it does say something that you haven’t received a phone screen from the roles you’ve applied to so far, given your education and target roles I wouldn’t expect you’d apply to hundreds of jobs, maaaabe dozens. Can you reach out to come folks on LinkedIn for informational interviews to get a non sugarcoated assessment of what might be lacking in your background for the roles you want? I’d also try the app “Blind” for advice which has some medical directors in the healthcare subpage. And pharma hiring really does move sloooow, 6 weeks might not be enough time for your materials to have been reviewed. In general your position and salary expectations don’t sound unreasonable, you just have to figure out what’s keeping you from floating to the top of the applicant pile.

  16. Well, this sucks!*

    I’m going to be laid off at some point in the next 2-3 months and given the option to work as a contractor for my soon-to-be-former employer.

    What all do I need to do to get ready for this switch? I’m talking with HR and my boss about severance, etc. but I’m feeling lost when it comes to health insurance, unemployment benefits, etc.

    For people who have been in this situation, what did you do (or not do!) to get yourself set up as well as possible for being unemployed?

    1. ThatGirl*

      For health insurance, it depends a little on your severance — with my last layoff, part of the package was that they would pay for COBRA coverage (essentially keeping the same insurance) for three months. After that I could have kept the COBRA on my own or switched to an ACA plan. Your options will likely be the same, but COBRA coverage is usually insanely expensive if the company isn’t subsidizing it.

      Unemployment – you can file right away, as soon as you’re no longer getting paid; it may take a couple weeks depending on your state and their backlog.

      I’ve never had advanced notice of a layoff, but if I had, I would sock as much money as possible away, get your resume ready to go and start looking for new jobs now.

      1. Well, this sucks!*

        Thank you! I am asking about continuing my coverage, but this language is really helpful. I’m def. starting my job search now!

    2. Ashley*

      I believe starting next month you can signup at healthcare.gov so I would start shopping insurance plans. If you do take the contractor route make sure you account for taxes in your salary negotiations. If you have a 401(k) don’t forget to ask about how that is handled.

      1. Natalie*

        OP doesn’t need to sign up during an open enrollment period – losing eligibility for their employer provided coverage is a qualifying life event and they will be able to enroll at that time. There’s really no reason to sign up early, you’ll likely be paying more for insurance when you could have just stayed on your employer plan until the actual layoff date.

        1. Well, this sucks!*

          Thank you both! I’ve been poking around on healthcare.gov.

          Fortunately my 401k is 100% vested, so I can take it all with me.

        2. Part of a mass layoff*

          This was a few years ago, but I’ve been told that when employer stops paying for COBRA isn’t a qualifying life event. You should check and confirm if this is still true and plan accordingly. Lucky for me, I didn’t have to figure out this particular issue but other folks who were part of the layoff were deciding to sign up for open enrollment because a) employer paid COBRA started before/during open enrollment but ended a few months afterwards b) they weren’t sure if they’d find another job (and be covered) in time c) paying out of pocket to continue COBRA was stupidly expensive and d) the mandatory health coverage law was in effect.

          1. Natalie*

            I wasn’t referring to COBRA coverage. The OP is still working and still covered by their employer plan as normal, they aren’t going to be laid off for a few months. There’s no reason for them to rush to sign up for a plan during the upcoming open enrollment, because they will qualify for enrollment when they are actually laid off. If their employer offers a few months of COBRA, when that ends they also qualify for Marketplace enrollment.

            It is true that deciding to drop COBRA coverage simply because you don’t want it anymore isn’t a qualifying event. Your eligibility has to end, or your costs change because employer subsidy has ended. So, basically, before you opt to pay for COBRA *with your own money*, make sure you’re happy paying for it until at least the next ACA open enrollment period.

    3. Cat Tree*

      I worked as a contractor when I was young and naive. Don’t be afraid to ask for an hourly rate that seems exorbitant to you. It should not be just slightly higher than your current pay. If you get no company contributions to health care, no paid sick or vacation time (maybe not even paid holidays), no annual bonus, no 401k matching, and no formal path for raises and promotions, you will need quite a lot more to cover all that yourself. And it will still be cheaper for the company. Of course, you’re not in a strong position to negotiate but you can at least ask for it.

      1. Filosofickle*

        Agreed. Translate your salary to an hourly then add minimum 25% , ideally 50%. And that’s for a FT role. For a non-FT / project / consultant type role, my rate is double or more.

        1. Well, this sucks!*

          I feel good about the rate I need to charge. I’ve freelanced before and I know what’s standard in my industry. My employer may not like it as it’s quite a bit higher than my salary, but I know they aren’t going to find someone with my skillset for less than what I’ll be asking.

        2. Filosofickle*

          Clicked too soon! More info.

          That extra pays for:
          Additional taxes (set aside lots for taxes!)
          Health insurance premiums
          Unpaid vacation and sick time
          Uncertainty

          It does depend if you’ll be a W2 or a 1099. Many contract employees are processed through a staffing firm so you’re a W2 of that firm to avoid legal liability. In that case, the staffing firm will take care of your taxes and may even provide some benefits. That generally pays on the lower end, in part because your company has to pay that staffing firm a fee for that service. (Being a W2 also sets you up for future unemployment at the end of the contract.) If you will be a 1099, you need to cover your own taxes and benefits etc and you should ask for more.

          1. Well, this sucks!*

            I will be a 1099. I’m trying to figure out how that impacts my eligibility for unemployment. Would it make sense for me to not even be a contractor and just collect unemployment until I find a new job?

            I currently have no guarantee of work after my position is eliminated, just that they have certain projects they really want me to work on.

            1. ThatGirl*

              Well, if they’re still going to have you working, just not as an employee, you wouldn’t be eligible for unemployment. In my experience (I’m pretty sure this is true across states, but ymmv) you can earn up to a certain (low) amount each week and then they start reducing your unemployment benefits. So if you’d be working more than even a few hours a week, it’s enough income to make you ineligible for UE.

              1. Well, this sucks!*

                Thank you! That’s what I was thinking. I’m also trying to figure out if I take contract work, and then that dries up, am I still eligible for unemployment. I don’t think so…

                1. Natalie*

                  Double check in your state, but I think in most states it shouldn’t make you ineligible unless it is full time contract work. Essentially, you get laid off, you file for UI, and then you report your freelancing earnings each week to the UI office so they can calculate what your UI payment is.

                2. Filosofickle*

                  That does feel like a critical question to sort out if that’s a concern. I don’t know how you’d find a definitive answer, though. In my state (CA) you would be eligible for UE if you go 1099 and that ends, or at least that’s how it’s supposed to be working during the pandemic

                3. ronda*

                  your state should have an unemplyment website that sets out the rules and allows you to apply.
                  in ga, I had to document 3 job seeking activities a week to get my weekly check.

                  One of the things they asked about weekly is if you were offered work and turned it down (I believe they want to stop paying you then)

                  I do think you might still be eligible for unemployment if your contract job dries up.
                  They did base the benefit amount on your earnings for the periods before you apply (went back 2 years I think), and I was a w2 employee, so that was all reported by my employer… not sure if 1099 $ are reported to unemployment.

              2. WellRed*

                I do wonder if changing someone from FT employee to a contractor status counts as enough a job change that you qualify for UI. I’d bet yes.

      2. MacGillicuddy*

        There are legal implications for a company that eliminates a full time position and then hires a contractor to do the same work. Alison has written about this problem many times. The issue is that if you’re doing the same job as a contractor that you did as a full time employee, then you’re not really a contractor.
        Additionally, in some states companies have to wait several months (6 I think) after eliminating a position before hiring a contractor to do the same job.

        Here’s an older post where the reply addresses this: https://www.askamanager.org/2012/07/employer-wants-to-illegal-treat-me-as-a-contractor-rather-than-an-employee.html

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          One clarification on this — if they restructure the work so that it meets the legal requirements for an independent contractor role, they can do that. But they can’t have you keep doing the job just like an employee would.

          1. Well, this sucks!*

            Thank you both. I think they can restructure it so it’s legal. I think I will have to keep on them to keep it that way though. There’s no plan for anyone else to take over my day-to-day administrative-type duties and I don’t think they’re prepared to have someone take on gathering all the assets I’ll need to do a project. Typically I would hunt down everything I need from people in other offices, run project intake meetings to get a sense of timeline, deliverables, etc.

    4. Lifelong student*

      Where are the legal/HR department for companies that think they can change an employee to a contractor! If that person is essentially in the same role- under the same constraints and controls- they are an employee! There are specific standards for differentiating between employee and contractor- both at federal and state levels.

      1. Well, this sucks!*

        From what I can tell, they will be changing my job enough for it to be a legal change. I’m the director of design/branding and they will be offering me discrete projects as a contractor. So I set my hours, where I work, etc.

        The only thing that I’m not sure about is it sounds like they’ll still want me to handle the admin side of things (handling asset requests and organization), but again, without constraints on my time, location, etc.

    5. ronda*

      also about 401k.. you usaully have the option to stay in your employer plan or rollover to IRAs
      they should send you a document telling you about your options when you are severed.
      You dont have to do the rollover right away, you can do it much later if you want to wait.

      http://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/071715/8-reasons-roll-over-your-401k-ira.asp
      http://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/080315/top-reasons-not-roll-over-your-401k-ira.asp

      another reason not to do the rollover is if you want to do the mega backdoor roth ira.
      If you have your company stock in your 401k.. there is a beneficial tax treatment called NUA that you need to do exactly right to have it work and not be a penalty. (this is mentioned in the article)

  17. Missed Call Mystery*

    I’m usually a huge proponent of “do not respond to a missed call unless they also left a voicemail” but I’m having a weird situation that I wanted to run by the group. I had 2-3 missed calls from the same number the past two days. I was never able to answer it – they always called when I was on another call I couldn’t excuse myself from or in the bathroom – and they never left a message. The number showed on my screen as being from a national title company I sometimes work with (I’m a real estate lawyer), but I searched the number in my email and nothing came up, and I currently am not working on any projects that involve that title company or the area code from where they were calling. I’ve never encountered a spam caller who calls so many times from the same number which makes me think it’s legit, but if it was, I would think they would leave a message. So far no calls today, and I’m going to try to answer if they do, but should I have tried calling the number back yesterday?

    1. Missed Call Mystery*

      To clarify – I just checked my call log and it was 4 calls Wednesday and 2 calls yesterday. Not just 2 calls over two days.

    2. Anononon*

      As a lawyer who works in a field adjacent to yours, I wouldn’t answer it. People know how to leave voicemails – if it’s not worth it for them to leave one, I’m not wasting my time in calling them back.

      1. Missed Call Mystery*

        Yeah, in my experience it’s the rare lawyer who doesn’t love to leave a voicemail. But then local title companies can also have quirks, so it’s been a toss-up!

    4. Pond*

      This is now a thing that spam callers do (spoofing a legitimate phone number and calling multiple times), so I wouldn’t worry about it. If it would give you peace of mind perhaps you could call or email/message one of your contacts at that company and say ‘hey this happened, just want to check it wasn’t actually you trying to reach me.’ That would also alert them that a spammer is spoofing their number in case they get calls from people thinking they interacted with the company. However, I don’t think that is necessary and would be a bit much.

    5. Ashley*

      One of the problems I run into in the no voicemail, text message, or email followup is who to ask for if it isn’t a direct line. If they are calling on a work cell where the number is given out regularly and not just my personal phone I would probably try calling once and leave a message if you can.

    6. Emi*

      I get repeat spam calls from the same number all the time, to the point where I add them to my contacts as “SPAM.” Personally I would ignore unless/until they leave a message.

    7. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I sometimes get repeat calls from a number I don’t know that doesn’t leave a message, and I’ve started googling the number when it happens. If it pops up as being the official number of a business that I actually have a reason to talk to, I’ll call them. But usually, it’s just a string of those “look up this number” websites, which I take to mean it’s a spam call.

    8. Bagpuss*

      I think you are fine – not least as if you did call back, if it’s not someone’s direct line then the first thing you’re likely to be asked is who you want to speak to…

    9. RagingADHD*

      I would just make sure the voicemail is working properly, and then ignore it.

      If it’s a work call, there is no reason they can’t leave you a message, and you said the title company has emailed with you before.

      1. Annie Moose*

        Was going to say–double-check that your voicemail isn’t full or something, but if not, then they’ll leave a voicemail if it’s deeply important!

        1. Missed Call Mystery*

          I’ve gotten voicemails from other people while this was happening, and I always delete everything, so that’s not the issue. (They also only rang three times once – I had just taken a giant bite of food and by the time I swallowed the phone stopped ringing.)

          1. Enough*

            Three rings is usually a sign of spam calls. If they are computer generated they call multiple number at once and when someone answers the other calls get dropped. Also as most voice mail is set up to pick up after 5-10 rings they don’t want to get caught up in that.

    10. Anxious Overdresser*

      Tech companies pay new grads to make cold calls. Often, they have call quotas – but if you don’t answer, you still count towards their quota (and they can call you 3 times a day and get 3 calls closer to quota daily if you don’t answer!) Someone may have you listed as someone who they could sell a new software to.

    11. Choggy*

      Nope, if it was important, they would have left a vm, don’t worry about it and if you find it annoying, just block them. I can’t tell you how many calls I get that are spoofed from legit numbers that do call me. If they don’t leave a message, and I can’t verify the number, the number is blocked.

    12. Dr.KMnO4*

      Does your phone have a “screen call” (I think that’s what it’s called) option? My Google Pixel has a feature where I can have my phone “answer” the call and say a prerecorded message that asks the caller to ID who they are and why they’re calling. It transcribes their response and I can decide to answer it or not. Most spam callers just hang up at that point. That might be an option if your phone has that feature.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Oh, is that what it’s doing? I have the same setup, apparently, but I thought maybe it changed the format of the visual voicemail for some calls. Can vouch that it’s worked well for my legitimate calls so far. I never pick up unknown numbers and I have gotten repeat calls from some of them that are definitely spam/spoofed.

    13. Lifelong student*

      I have received calls from numbers I do not know and not answered them only to find out that it was a WFH call from someone at a business or medical practice I am involved with. The no voice mail may be because of privacy or HIPPA restrictions. Just a thought.

      1. Choggy*

        They should still leave a message without including any sensitive details, just the call back information, I can’t imagine that falls under privacy or HIPPA?

    14. Policy Wonk*

      They probably want to tell you that your vehicle’s extended warranty is about to expire. I’d wait for them to call back.

      2. PollyQ*

        I’ve gotten several of those over the past couple weeks, although they’ve all left pre-recorded messages.

    15. Haha Lala*

      Do you have a contact at that title company that you can check in with directly and see if they know if someone’s been trying to reach you? That way you’re not responding to the potential spam number, but not completely ignoring something that may need your attention. And if it is a case of scammers duplicating their numbers, then at least you alerted the company.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      Maybe I am old? But if a person cannot bother to leave a message, I am not willing to play, “Guess what they want?”

      You may find it helpful to avoid looking at the list of callers to see who did not leave a message. That’s my plan and I am sticking to it.
      For the most part, they don’t leave messages when it’s too detailed or too personal to put in a vm.

  18. MMM*

    I’m currently working a temporary position, so I’ve been casually job searching knowing that I will need a new job come September. I just got switched to a new role within that position (now working a call center) This made my job search a lot more desperate. Will it look strange or flighty to be interviewing 8 months ahead of time? I’m not sure how skeptical interviewers would be of someone trying to leave their temporary job before the year is up.

    1. Allypopx*

      Are you on a contract or could you leave if an opportunity came up now?

      I ask just because it’s going to be a lot harder to find a position if you can’t start for 8 months – I think the circumstances make sense, and I’m not sure the interviewers would be skeptical persay. It’s just unlikely you’d meet their needs.

      If you AREN’T on a contract “the terms of my temporary position changed” is a perfectly legitimate reason to leave early and you won’t look flighty.

      1. MMM*

        No, not a contract, and the end date is firm, so wouldn’t have been an opportunity for it to be extended or converted to permanent anyway. That’s reassuring, obviously job hunting is hard in normal times, but with everyone else also looking I don’t want things to come down to the wire at the end!

        1. Cat Tree*

          This is where “at-will” employment benefits employees too. If something better comes along you are perfectly free to move on.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      If you are able to get a permanent job offer now you should just take it and not worry about making it until September. Unless you took a temp position that was specifically contracted for and about a specific time length (ie covering a maternity leave, a leave of absence, etc), leaving a temp job when a permanent position came up is super normal. Wanting to leave a temp job early because they changed your role is also another good reason to want to make a switch early, I don’t think anyone would look at that poorly.

    3. Ellen*

      It makes sense to start job hunting early, because the process can be very lengthy, so I don’t think you’re wildly out of whack on the timing. You could also potentially spin it as ‘I moved my job hunt along faster when I saw [this opening] because it seemed like a great fit’ during the interview.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Anybody who would think it’s wierd to leave a temporary call-center gig ASAP is out of touch with reality and you don’t want to work with them anyway.

    5. SomebodyElse*

      Look now and don’t wait until you are near the end. The nature of temporary positions is that they are temporary. It’s accepted and understood that temp employees are a greater flight risk than permanent ones are.

      It will not look strange, unprofessional, or flighty for you to do this. In fact most people would question why you waited until the end to look for something else.

    6. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Agreeing with everyone, my understanding is that temp roles are expected to have turnover.

      Just in case it’s not on there, note you’re currently in a temp role, so it’s clear why you’re applying for new roles even though you’ve only been there for a short time, e.g.

      Call Center admin (temp), Jan 2021-present

    7. Chriama*

      It’s very common for people to leave temp work for full time work, regardless of how far away your end date is (assuming it’s not highly paid, and if they want you making cold calls it sure doesn’t sound like it). It won’t look flighty at all. Apply for jobs now and leave when you get a good offer. You have the benefit of being able to be picky for the next few months.

  19. Synonymous*

    I am working on paring down my work wardrobe and investing in quality pieces that will last. As you have moved up in your career, what work wardrobe upgrades have you made that you love and have held up over time (bonus points for sustainability)? Personally I have started buying cashmere sweaters from Naadam and flats from Rothy’s. The cashmere makes the sweaters a pain to wash, but they are the softest things I’ve ever owned. And I love the Rothy’s color and comfort.

    1. Chauncy Gardener*

      I love any kind of high quality sweater jacket. They read ‘jacket’ but feel like jammies. ;) I have quite a few of them, warmer for winter and lighter for summer.
      Turtlenecks in winter and sleeveless shells in the summer for underneath.
      A couple of pairs of high quality slacks and/or skirts and you’re good to go, I’d say.

    2. PolarVortex*

      Comfortable pants are worth the investment, particularly of fabric that is not as likely to wrinkle. Back when I went in to work, I practically lived in the same three pairs of pants, all of which were ridiculously comfortable and didn’t wrinkle. They could dress up or down depending on whether I had to meet with the powers that be or not that day.

      Also, I own what probably most resembles a shorter kurta, which looks very professional and bonus lightweight for summer.

      Honestly I usually don’t have to dress up for my job but I’m all about comfort myself too. My theory runs: if I wouldn’t wear it laying on the couch it’s not worth my effort investing for it at work.

    3. Ashley*

      The work sleeveless black dress. It is easy to update with a new cardigan. I think I got mine from Ann Taylor outlets.

    4. A Simple Narwhal*

      If they’re your style, a high-quality high-waisted pencil skirt is a must-have, mine is definitely the most versatile item in my wardrobe. It works in warm weather with a breezy blouse and heels/flats, it works when it’s cold with a sweater/turtleneck/blazer and tights and boots. It looks sleek and is very flattering to my shape, I always feel very well put together when I wear it! I struggled early in my career to find work clothes that were professional but also made me feel good – for the longest time I didn’t think I could look professional without looking frumpy or feel true to my style at all. Developing my own style in business attire has been something I’m pleased to have grown in over the years, I finally feel like I can look professional but also look and feel good at the same time!

      I’ve enjoyed living in lounge wear essentially for the last 11 months, but when/if I do go back in to the office I’ll be happy to break out my pencil skirt once again!

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        I wish I could pull off a pencil skirt, I love them on everyone except me. Haha. But I am a Viking lass with hips built for child-bearing and legs that will cover leagues, and a pencil skirt emphasizes those things in all the wrong ways. My equivalent is a long a-line skirt, and I have those in about two dozen patterns/colors :)

    5. Another JD*

      Tailoring well-made pieces has made all the difference for me.

      My favorite pair of work pants were $250, but the material is exquisite, and the fabric falls just so. Ten years later, they still look new.

      I also love my leather Coach purse. It was from the outlets so only $350, but I’ve used it every day for four years and aside from some wear on the straps, it’s in fabulous shape. My mom was gifted a high-end purse (I forget the brand but remember the price – an eye-watering $750!). She’s had it for 15 years and it still looks new.

      How do you wash your cashmere sweaters? Mine haven’t held up as well over time as my wool ones.

      1. Synonymous*

        I’m curious where you’ve gotten your pants!

        For the cashmere, I’ve been wearing them with t- or long sleeve shirt underneath, something to keep them away from my armpits! The I follow the company’s directions to wash them by hand with baby shampoo. They’ve held up so far, but the one I’ve had the longest is probably only a year-ish old.

        1. Teach*

          Also look at washes marketed toward the knitting community – there are really gentle, wonderful products for sweaters that also condition the yarn (it’s hair, after all!) I buy Soak unscented, but Eucalan is another popular brand.

    6. SomebodyElse*

      Silk blouses.

      They are expensive, but worth it. First and foremost they don’t have nearly the static cling that synthetic blouses have. They work just as well with a blazer or sweater (I generally wear sweaters) and can be worn with slacks or jeans (I wear jeans in my home office and slacks when I travel).

      I won’t link, but if you google vince silk blouse you can find the ones I like best on the vince website or even amazon.

    7. Just a PM*

      Upgrading from cardigans to blazers and jackets, and especially getting them tailored to fit perfectly.

      Though I must confess: I actually haven’t gotten any of mine tailored yet. I was going to get my first jacket tailored and then COVID hit. All the work clothes went back into my closet and I resumed dressing like the 22 year old coder I was in the beginning with t-shirts and hoodies. But when COVID goes away, I will begin tailoring my blazers and jackets.

    8. Hooray for Gamestop*

      +1 to PolarVortex’s non-wrinkly comfortable pants comment.

      Also want to shout-out custom shirts from a tailor. They are expensive but worth it IMO. You can ask a tailor to also alter shirts for you, for example men’s shirts off-the-rack that are too long in the sleeve for you. Women’s off-the-rack button shirts that fit me for length were too small for my upper arms. I felt and looked a little like Hulk, about to break the shirt. Not a good look and I did indeed break a few. It’s one thing to be careful in an outfit for a club (“no jumping jacks in this dress”) but another to do for a work shirt (“no bending my arms in this shirt”).

      I’m a little overweight but nothing extreme. The custom shirts totally fit (of course that’s the point) and no more Hulk shirt worries.

    9. Policy Wonk*

      Good quality blazers and jackets in classic fabrics/styles. They will draw the focus and can be worn with pants, skirts, dresses. Blouses/shells/scarves can change with fashion and keep the look up to date. As for sustainability, check consignment shops. Good quality lasts, so you can often find them there.

    10. cactus lady*

      Not a particular wardrobe piece but something that has helped me a lot – all the clothes I buy match each other. So I never have to worry about which pieces I’m picking out and whether the outfit will go. This probably comes from wearing a school uniform in my childhood, but I get a lot of anxiety trying to figure out outfits, and this way they all feel figured out already.

    11. tab*

      I wear dress pants (from Talbots) with a cotton shell and cardigan in the summer, and cashmere sweaters or a blazer with shell in the winter. I throw my sweaters in the washer and wash them with Woolite on the delicate setting, and lay them flat to dry. It doesn’t seem to hurt them.

    12. Sue*

      Eileen Fisher black pants. If money is no object, Misook skirts, pants, jackets will last a lifetime. They are knit, pack beautifully without wrinkles, machine wash and are mix and match. Very high quality but definitely expensive.

  20. Niniel*

    It’s the slower season at my job. The workload I have today could be finished in about 2 weeks, but I have no incentive to finish it because I know that I can’t just take off work for a couple weeks after that. I wish more companies would allow taking time off (aside from vacation days) once your workload is done. I’d be so much more motivated to finish work quickly if I knew I could take a day off at the end of the week!

  21. Minhag*

    Does anyone have a solid rule of thumb for picking a target salary when negotiating? Something like, “figure out what you think the salary should be, then add 20%” or “always ask for $15,000 more than what you are hoping for”?

    1. Mbarr*

      I heard the suggestion that you should always ask for $5000 more than what you want. That being said, at my current job, I asked for $15,000 more, because after the interview I realized the job was way more in-depth than anticipated.

    2. ThatGirl*

      When I was interviewing for the job I just started, I gave a range that ended about $10k above my last job. They offered me that number. Now I wish I had aimed a little higher – although, to be clear, I think I’m being paid fairly and well. It just made me think maybe they would have gone higher if I’d asked. So never be afraid to tack another $5k or whatever on. :)

    3. Chaordic One*

      I’ve always heard that when you are making a lateral move to a different company where you’ll be doing pretty much what you do in your current position, you should ask for and get at least 10% more than your current salary. If the benefits are better or worse, you might vary that a bit up or down to compensate for that.

  22. Accounting Student*

    Any suggestions for accounting related websites/news/resources? I’m studying accounting in college (in the US) and planning on some sort of career in accounting, and I’m having difficulty finding information on accounting careers other than starting in public/at the Big 4 for a few years before switching into private. I’m more interested in tax than audit, but there are definitely other areas of accounting I just don’t know about and want to learn.

    1. Chauncy Gardener*

      Honestly, if you have the grades etc to get hired into the Final Four, you should go for it. It will give you the experience and the cred you’ll always be glad you have. Plus your CPA. Most public accounting firms will let you try both tax and audit.
      What other areas are you interested in? Are there career counseling resources at your school? Do you know anyone in the field that you could get an informational interview with?

      1. Accounting Student*

        I’ll probably but not for certain be able to go for the Big 4. My school has an internship program with them that I’ll probably apply for next year, and if I can do that I’ll probably be offered a job at the end. So that seems like a great option.
        However, last semester was my first intermediate accounting class, material directly relevant to the CPA, and I did really badly in it. Of course I’m not sure how much was because of the general insaneness of the world/COVID/online classes and how much is difficulty with the actual material, but it has seriously shaken my confidence and now I’m really questioning whether I should go for the CPA and that path at all.

        1. Lifelong student*

          Intermediate is often the hardest accounting course. The material can be very confusing. When I was a beginning accountant, I kept my intermediate textbook in my office. It was not uncommon for even partners to come to consult it!

      2. Accounting Student*

        It’s hard to figure out what other areas I’m interested in because it’s hard to find information. The only accounting related news/website I’ve found is Going Concern, which isn’t exactly helpful.
        I have done a couple informational interviews and I’ll try to do some more in the next year. The only people I know to ask are people who have done the big 4/CPA path, and I don’t know where to find people who haven’t done that, which I think would be helpful for a different perspective.

        1. Chauncy Gardener*

          Potatoes (with the awesome username) below makes great recommendations.
          I think what usually happens is you start in public (so maybe Big 4, maybe not) and that gives you a pretty broad exposure to a bunch of different companies. Then, if you decide you don’t love public and want to go on the partner track, you jump to private, either in tax or accounting. Or if you’re in tax, you could go to the IRS or a local government. Local government in turn could lead to going back to private as a SALT specialist.
          Audit can lead to “regular” accounting jobs (financial analyst, Accounting Manager, on up, depending at what level you leave public) in private (and things are SO different from company to company and industry to industry) or things like forensic auditing
          I think the main thing at your point is not to overthink things. You have no idea what you’ll like or dislike until you start doing it! And don’t get freaked out by not doing well in Intermediate Accounting. See if you can get some extra help, just to get your feet under you, and then I’m sure you’ll do fine!

    2. Potatoes gonna potate*

      For tax, Kelly Phillips Erbs is a great person to follow. IRS is the main resource but I know lots of professionals who use Sequoia to obtain CPE credits. and this may sound a little silly but I’ve joined a few tax groups on Facebook and they are pretty helpful (so long as you go in wanting to learn and make it clear that you’re a student and not practicing).

    5. CupcakeCounter*

      So I am an accountant who skipped the CPA route and went straight into corporate accounting – 10+ years later I am a Senior Financial Analyst for a manufacturer doing a mix of general accounting, budget/forecasting, and inventory management. There are TONS of options to choose from – Cost Accounting for manufacturing companies, general accountant which does the monthly books as well as a lot of reporting, Financial Planning and Analysis which does a lot of the budget and forecasting and then analysis of the variances of budget to actual, etc…
      2 things to keep in mind: 1) an audit background is basically a guarantee of a corporate job at publicly traded companies since they have to do quarterly and annual filings and having someone on staff who understands what the auditors look for is a huge plus. If tax is your jam, great! There are still a lot of options for tax in public accounting as well as the corporate sector but there is a lot less variety in what you can transition into.
      2) Having your CPA opens up a lot of jobs later on in your career and many public firms will help pay for it – both the test and prep courses – so don’t let that one class scare you off. The first intermediate accounting class is a bear for many successful accountants – in my class we had a 20% drop out rate.

      My recommendation would be look for a public internship as well as a corporate internship – those will help more than any articles or publications. I prefer corporate accounting – I never had any intention of going the public route – but there are significant long-term advantages to having your CPA and a few years of public accounting under your belt. My classmates who went into public accounting and got their CPA are making at least 25% more than I am and I have done a fairly decent job for advocating for myself and feel my compensation is fair.

      1. Lifelong student*

        Not every state requires actual public accounting experience to get a CPA license. PA changed its rules a few years back. The experience requirements for those who are not in public can be difficult to meet- but it is a path to licensure.

    6. Mr. Goo*

      Check out the subreddit r/accounting. A lot of folks are in public accounting but there are a number who skipped doing that and went right into industry. Some of the industry and government positions still allowed them to get their CPA licenses, too.

      I went through public accounting so I don’t have any advice for you. If you’re able to get your CPA without going public that would be a much easier life. And don’t let recruiters or classmates try to convince you’ll make way more money doing public. The initial pay is higher but don’t let that fool you. I did 6 years in public and am going to start a government job next month. I’ll be making the same amount of money but I was putting in 300 hours of overtime a year at my firm.

    7. ronda*

      I got my cpa a long time ago, but didnt do audit/ accounting firm. It required more years of experience than if I had been at public accounting to get the CPA. But each state has it’s own rules about this kind of stuff. public accounting firms are a little more likely to have some support around this, like study time for cpa exam, cpe opportunities cause they generally have more employees needing it than a private company.

      I do have the impression that the big accounting firms have a churn going on. they hire a lot of new graduates every year and expect them to start moving up of leave after a year or few. Lots of travel is a benefit for some and a deterrent for others (often at client sites).

      My sister works in tax. Sales tax, which is totally different than income tax. It is a private company and they have income tax people too… she just likes sales tax better.

      After doing some years of accounting stuff, I moved to systems stuff. That is another big practice at the big firms, software consulting and management consulting. Systems might seem like an IT area, but it is also a finance/accounting area cause they need help with the systems and generally like a mix of accounting and systems knowledge.

      There are lots of options and you can try some out as you get the chance and see what you like.

      1. ronda*

        also, I volunteered to be a tax-aide tax preparer for this year. It is sponsored by the irs to help people who need assistance filing their income taxes. The one I volunteered with is run by aarp.

        Doing this might give you a little insight into personal income tax preparation. And might be a way to see what you think of tax. It is limited in the scope of tax situations it will take on, so it really only shows you some of the tax situations that you might encounter if you went into it as a career. And it does focus on personal vs corporate tax, so there is that too.
        If you wanted to make a few bucks doing this, instead of volunteering, you might try working for one of the retail tax preparers. I hear they pay minimum wage, but if you want to try it out, it might be worth it.

        Look for training on their websites in Fall if you are interested. Look up irs tax volunteers on their website for more info on that program.

    8. Red Boxes and Arrows*

      I recently went back to school to finish my Bachelor’s (in Accounting) and get my Master’s (in Accounting). I was hired immediately after graduation as a Senior IT Internal Auditor at Awful Fortune 5 Company (I have an IT background) but now am a Senior [Everything] Internal Auditor at Awesome Mid-Level Manufacturer. I didn’t even know that internal audit was a thing until I was in my 3rd-to-last undergrad semester.

      The people in my cohort who went Big 4 hate it. Insane hours for low pay. Other friends of mine are at mid-tier consulting firms and, while they enjoy it, don’t have plans to stay. [To be fair, though, a Senior Manager of mine at Awful Fortune 5 Company quit and went back to one of the Big 4, so industry isn’t for everyone.]

      From my perspective, the people who went straight to industry — as either internal auditors or corporate accountants — appear to be the most satisfied with their work and pay. It may be true, as CupcakeCounter says above, that folks who go the Big4 route and get their CPA make a lot more, but there’s a work/life balance trade-off. I *will* say that you can go the industry/corporate route, get your CPA, and then command more money in corporate accounting for having that license (without ever working in public accounting).

      In my company, we have tax accountants, cost accountants, corporate and consolidations accountants (international company with multiple sub-companies whose financials need to be rolled into one set of financial statements), risk/compliance analysts (a blend of legal and accounting), financial analysts, pricing analysts, manufacturing plant controllers, payables accountants, accounting people who work in supply chain, and so much more.

      I’ll echo the advice to try to do two internships, one at a public accounting firm and one in a corporate accounting role, so you can compare for yourself. And, be forewarned, if you do an OK job at the public accounting internship, they will press you to sign on for a permanent job when you graduate, even if graduation is still several semesters away. One of my co-IT-audit-interns at Fortune 5 had previously done an internship at one of the Big 4. Without knowing any better, she committed to working for them after she graduated, which was immediately after our co-internship ended. Except. . . Big 4 wanted to pay her $55K (with “great” growth potential and a 3% annual performance bonus) and Fortune 5 offered her $80K plus an annual bonus of 25% of her base pay. She *almost* took the Big 4 job out of some misplaced loyalty.

    9. Accounting Student*

      Thank you all for the suggestions and sharing your experiences, this definitely gives me more things to look into!

    10. Annie’s Mom*

      I’m another accountant that skipped the public route, and went into the private sector after graduation. I had just gotten married, and actually wanted to spend some time at home vs. the travel and long hours of public accounting. I’ve worked at the same company for 15 years, in family wealth management. Ended up getting my cpa abt 8 years after graduating, it’s helpful for my job, although I don’t work much with tax. I love working in a small company— I wear lots of different hats, so it never gets boring, and even after all of these years, I still learn new things. And I’m paid really well, and have a fair amount of flexibility.

  23. Mbarr*

    Stuck between a rock and a hard place. I’m a Software Program Manager (I don’t have that official title) but I’m not good at my job. I wasn’t trained to be a PM. I also don’t understand enough about our processes/software so I’m floundering right now. I don’t dislike (but I also don’t like) my manager. I keep vacillating between wanting to job hunt, and hoping things get better.

    On Monday, I found out I’m going to be offered an internal position with another team. It would mean working with other PMs. And I know my PM work will go to this new team regardless. The problem is:
    1. This new team will see right through me that I’m Not Good at my work.
    2. The manager is a suuuuper Type A personality and I suspect I’d be super stressed out working for her.
    3. I’ve also had some bad experiences with their VP (like, bad enough that I complained to my own manager about it).

    The thing is, I WANT to be a better PM. Career-wise, it would be amazing for me (if I can actually rise up and understand what the heck my company does). And I’m wondering if, as part of the new team, I’d get the support I need to excel in this row. (It’s like I’m a Chef working among mechanics right now. If I move to the new team, I’d be a Chef working with other Chefs.)

    Alternatively, if I stay with my current team, I’d get rid of the work that’s stressing me out. But I’d be left with other unappealing work that also sometimes stresses me out.

    1. Threeve*

      I can’t give much advice, except: you’re not bad at your job! You’re under-trained at your job!

      2. EMP*

        seconding this! If you make that move to the PM team, would it help your comfort and your training to point out that elephant in the room? Something like “Since I came into this role from Teapot Painter there’s a lot I still need to learn about being a PM and I’m excited to learn from everyone here.”

    2. Lilith*

      I firstly want to say that if they are intending on offering you a new post in a specialised PM team, then they must value your work as it’s to their benefit if you succeed. They clearly want you to stay, so that must mean that you’re doing better than you might perceive yourself to be.

      Do you know anyone on the other team that you can ask about what it’s like, and that you could use as a bit of guide if you move to their team? I think I’m at a lower level than you, but am fairly similar in that I’m a fairly recent PM and am being slowly absorbed into the IT team (though I have no knowledge and little interest in IT work) – I’ve managed it by really owning what I don’t know and so asking all the questions. I know they’ve found it helpful as me trying to clarify how some processes work has thrown up that they’re not that efficient, and I’ve also actively decided not to let my manager’s very ‘all or nothing’ stress outbursts not affect me (which I know not everyone can do).

      Of course, if you move to the new team and you don’t like it, you can always keep job hunting then.

    3. fish*

      My own rule is that I always pick the choice offering the most growth. Sometimes it’s scary but I just have to believe in myself that I’ll be able to do it. I believe you can do it too!

      When accepting the offer, you can be very upfront about what you’re hoping to learn and improve on. I wouldn’t frame it as, “I feel like I’m awful at X, I suck,” but more like, “I’m really excited to take this role. I especially am excited for the opportunity to learn more about X, which I’ve seen, but haven’t yet been formally trained on.”

      Example: my rabbi had no experience as a hospice chaplain but thought it would be useful to her. She asked the congregation to let her take a course in it as a condition of her hire. They agreed because they thought it would be useful to have a rabbi with that training. They weren’t mad she didn’t already have it.

    4. TiffIf*

      If you are being offered a position with another team, then there is obviously something about you/your work that they like or want. Maybe ask what it is?

      If you’re moving to a new team, do they work on a different product or different aspect of the product? I work in software as well and we have distinct roles among our PMs for the Residential side of our product and the Commercial side of our product (we’re insurance industry adjacent)–but the needs and expectations and relationship of the Residential clients vs the Commercial clients can be very different even though technically its the same product. If the new team works on a different product or different aspect of the product, use it as a chance to learn more about the product in general and your new role specifically.

      If you stay with your current team are you going to be able to figure out what your company does and how you can be a better PM in your current position?

      1. Mbarr*

        Essentially the move is to get all Program Managers under one team. I would literally be doing most of my same work – I’d just lose a few responsibilities that belong to the old team.

        I’d still be the odd duck on the new team – everyone else are PMs for Llama-tronics, and I’d be the PM for software programs that help run the Llama machines. They’d be able to teach me how to be a better PM. Learning about my products are harder. But you’ve given me food for thought. :D

    5. James*

      I’m pretty new at PMing myself, and my company strongly believes in learning by doing, so my training has been “Here’s a project. Have fun”. Yes, more seasoned PMs will see right through you. But good ones won’t be malicious about it. It’s more “Yeah, we all made that mistake. Here’s what you do instead.”

      I’d also suggest a formal or informal mentor. Someone you trust to tell you when you’re making mistakes, with the intent to help you fix them. Everyone makes mistakes, especially when they’re new, and a mentor will help keep mistakes from becoming catastrophic. They can also help with networking–providing subcontractor and vender names, introducing you to key players above you, that sort of thing.

      You could also see if the company could help with the cost of PM training. I’ve got a friend who’s going through such a program, with her company paying. A combination of practical and theoretical training can be useful in really driving home the concepts you learn in classes.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Seconding the suggestion for a mentor. In addition to the PM work stuff, you could get insights into how to work effectively with the new group’s manager and whether the VP has any impact on the PM work.

        Also, more generally I’ve found that when I’m working in a new-to-me area where I just don’t know much, asking basic questions usually turns out just fine. If someone gets grumpy about you asking a rookie question when you’re obviously a rookie, that’s not about you. Lately I feel like that’s most of my job, to be the one who says hey, before we really get into X, can we talk about what the goal of X is, why we’re doing it, and how will it be used. Not all of that would be applicable to you, maybe, but the idea is to get the bigger picture before you get swamped in the details.

    6. Yikes!*

      OMG, don’t take the transfer! Normally I’m all for taking new responsibilities/jobs that challenge me, but you already know you don’t like these parts of your job, and if you stay where you are the stressful parts will go away, that seems like a godsend! And getting thrown in with people who are good at it who you already suspect will NOT be supportive as you learn sounds like torture. Sounds to me like you can stay where you are and dodge a lot of bullets. Maybe you’ll keep some stressful parts of the job but maybe you can pick up others that you like / that are less stressful.

  24. Lilith*

    For people who use the same mobile phone for both personal and work purposes, what do you do when you have a day off? Do you still check work emails as they come in, or do you disconnect from the email app for the day? Do you answer phone calls and just take a message for yourself, or ignore calls and hope they weren’t personal?

    My current company pays people to use their personal device (not much, but it would cover my very low monthly contract), and I’m wondering if it would be worth it. I do really appreciate being able to switch off the work phone when I’m not working though, so that I don’t even have to think about the office.

    1. lapgiraffe*

      If you have the option to have a separate phone, do that. My whole career is on my personal phone and there’s just no way to not be bothered by it, I can’t tell you how many nice moments have been marred by a stupid work email or text that did not need my attention at the time but got it anyway since it’s mixed in with the rest of my life.

    2. CatCat*

      I would set up a Google voice number if they’re not giving you a work number you can forward. That lets you control the calls coming in to Google voice (like setting it to go straight to voicemail on the weekends).

      I have a work provided number that forwards to my phone. I turn off the phone forwarding on the weekend and it would then go straight to my work voicemail. I can check email on my phone, but I don’t on the weekend (there isn’t an app, there’s a mobile site for Outlook and I just don’t go to the site, but if there was an app, I would disable it.)

      My boss has my personal number so if there was something truly urgent after-hours and when I am off, he can call or text me there.

      1. Me*

        Seconding the google voice. I have a phone paid for by my work. I ported my personal cell number to a google voice number and set that up on my phone. That lets me have a personal number and a business number on the same device. Plus when I leave, I will just port my google voice number back to a new personal phone.

      2. Nela*

        I’m a freelancer and have one home. I have separate inboxes for work and personal emails and I don’t check my work inbox outside of business hours, and if I’m on vacation I peek in once a day. If you don’t have this option, use a different email app for work. I keep all emai notifications off all the time.

        Calls are not a big deal since clients don’t call me often, and never on the weekends, but I’ve had folks text me and I would leave unread and reply via email, requesting that in the future they always email and never text because I don’t use texting apps for work and I need to keep all my work communication in the same place and not spread across different apps where it’s impossible to track down. I know some clients find texting easier, but I’m not having it and I’m holding a firm boundary on this.

    3. TextHead*

      I do, but I also have very few of my work apps on my phone. For my work email, I have it so it can be easily accessed if I need to check it, but it’s not synced, so I don’t get notifications for it.

    4. Lucette Kensack*

      I strongly prefer having a different phone for work, but I use my personal phone for my current role. What I do:

      – Keep all email notifications turned off. No sound, no popup, no counter on the icon. I look at it when I need to, and ignore it otherwise.
      – Keep the email icon buried on a secondary screen, not on the home page.
      – If I’m in a particularly stressful period, or if I’m away on vacation, I remove the email app for as long as needed.
      – Have my desk phone line redirect to my mobile during work hours, and disconnect it when I’m not working (so I don’t have to give out my personal number).

    5. Ashley*

      I wish years ago I would have done a separate phone number. Voicemails are pretty easy because you can change the outgoing message and people that know me don’t really leave voicemails anyway. The text messages when off are the worst though. I have had different approaches depending on the level of messages I am getting. My favorite sush people option is put a handful of people in favorites and just receive notifications from them and then redo the setting when I return to work.
      Because I don’t check email on vacation I delete the app and use a different email for any vacation related travel arrangement stuff I may need to access.

    6. Just a PM*

      (This is a different perspective than what you asked for) My mom used her work cell as her personal phone. She *never* turned it off. We’d be out to dinner at a restaurant and she’d be checking emails. We’d be on vacation, and she’s checking email. We’d be in the car going somewhere — yep, checking email. And she didn’t have the kind of job that required her to be “on” 24/7 like that. All our vacation/milestone photos ended up on her work phone and because she couldn’t connect it to her personal laptop at home guess what…all those photos got deleted.

      I can say that as her child, it was super disappointing and very hard to get her to disconnect to be present. So if you have children, I would really encourage you to have two phones. Leave the work phone in your work bag when you come home. Don’t let your kids’ memories of last summer’s beach trip be you on your phone answering emails between pictures of them burying Dad in sand.

    7. RagingADHD*

      I don’t answer calls unless they are a recognized contact anyway, so when I’m not working I only answer friends & family.

    8. OneTwoThree*

      I use my personal phone for work as well. Most of my work phone calls and emails can be saved until I return to the office. Some of them should be dealt with or redirected sooner. In an effort to mentally take a break during vacation time, I’ll turn on do not disturb on my phone for few hours. I’ll listen to voicemails and scan emails a few times a day that way. I’ll deal with emergencies and save the rest for the next time I’m in the office.

      If you want to leave your general notifications on, but turn off your work notifications there are a few ways to do that. My “outlook” app allows for me to snooze notifications for a period of time – I use that most frequently for a day off here and there. I also have “digital wellbeing” on my phone. In the past I’ve setup times that alerts can come through for work related apps while on longer vacations. It “blocks” the work apps so I’m forced to enjoy my time off outside of these pre-set windows.

    9. CTT*

      I have a separate work number so that’s not an issue for me, but I do have my work email connected to my phone. I usually mute notifications if I’m out and let a few colleagues know they can text me if there’s something I legit need to see (we all do this for each other so no one abuses that). If I’m going to be out for more than a day, I do take five minutes each morning to triage my email – I won’t respond to anything, but I’ll delete things that I won’t need (office-wide emails asking if someone can notarize a doc, the daily special at the restaurant in my building, etc.). That way when I come back I’m not wading through a lot of unnecessary stuff.

    10. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      I don’t check my emails on days off. As for calls, I ignore them after a certain time ( about 5) because they have been told how to call on call or call 911 if it’s a real emergency

    11. Choggy*

      I use my work phone as my personal phone and don’t even look at it when I’m off work, or only look at it to see who is calling, and then not answer if it’s someone from work. I do create an Out of Office message for email and voicemail so they know who to contact in my absence.

    12. Aubrey*

      If you have the option of a completely separate work phone, I’d keep that. I get pretty much daily emails/text messages on my personal phone from coworkers – not excessive, but generally at least once or twice a day, even if I’m off the clock, and the messages usually aren’t even intended for me specifically. I still find it stressful when I’m trying to relax on my day off and someone else’s work conversations are suddenly intruding into “my” space. I definitely prefer a firm line between work and everything else, though, so YMMV.

      (For the record, most of what I get is all-team messages that don’t really require a response anyway. My supervisor is also fond of sending group text messages just to the people that are on shift on a given day, but naturally people somehow find a way to respond to the wrong ones, i.e. ones that include me when I’m NOT on shift, or send questions meant for her in an old group thread instead of texting directly, etc. I usually read them just to clear the notification, roll my eyes, and go back to whatever else I was doing. If I do get something that needs a response or that was actually meant for me personally, I usually read it but don’t respond until my next day at work.)

    13. Anonosaurus*

      I am very firmly in the have-two-phones camp. It is a hassle if I want to take both out with me, but I can live with that for the sake of being able to put work in a desk drawer after hours and leave. it. there.

      If you can discipline yourself/use hacks so you don’t get work emails or calls claiming your attention out of hours, that’s great. I know that I can’t make that work, so I have to be able to physically separate the two.

    14. Hillary*

      I’m also in the two phones camp. I’ve used my personal phone/# at a couple jobs – I now strongly prefer having everything separate. Last time I had one phone, I was very judicious about who had the number, probably less than 5% of my work contacts. And it wasn’t on my business card. I turned off the mail account (iphone user here, from settings-accounts) when I was on vacation. But I also quit the job for something with better work-life balance.

    15. MacGillicuddy*

      Find out what happens if you leave the company. A large unnamed famous company will pay for employee’s cell phones, but wipe the phones when the person leaves the company.
      I’d prefer 2 phones to having all my data eliminated if I found a new job.

    16. MTBer*

      For the email, I have it be pull only (no push notifications) and don’t check it on days off. For any phone calls (I get very few) if I answer and it is a colleague, I let them know it is my day off and ask them to call back later.

    17. allathian*

      I have my own phone and a work phone. No other option really, because I work for the government and we aren’t allowed to use any personal devices at all for work stuff. I have my manager’s work phone number and my closest coworker’s work and home phone numbers for emergencies on my own phone, but so far, I’ve never needed to use them. We’re totally mobile, so I don’t even have a work desk phone.

    18. Esme Estrella*

      I didn’t connect my work email to the Outlook app on my work/personal phone. I have a shortcut to the web version of outlook on my phone screen so it is easy to access if I want to check it, but I don’t get notifications. I get a lot of emails that don’t require my immediate attention or that aren’t actually relevant, so notifications would be nonstop if I allowed them.
      Outside of work hours, people know to call or text. During work hours I use my laptop for email, and if I’m running errands or going to an appointment I can check my work email easily on my phone, at times I choose.

  25. Aziraphale*

    Maybe it’s just because it feels like COVID is never going to end . . . but I’m starting to feel like I’m hitting a wall. Does anyone have suggestions on how they “leave work at work”? I’m finding I’m having a hard time disconnecting from work and it’s not as simple as trying to stop checking my email on an off day — it’s spending a lot of time thinking about issues, or people (or issues with people). Maybe it’s because I’ve recently had to follow through and write up a few people, but I’m starting to feel like I just can’t disconnect. Help me, hive mind!!! And thank you! :)

    1. Web Crawler*

      Ideas in no particular order:

      – How do you destress? Can you plan to do a hobby directly after work so that you have another thing to think about?

      – I find that I need a change in scenery after work, so I go on a walk. The walk seems to tell my brain “hey, this isn’t work anymore”

      – Sometimes I need to process emotions to get through them. Writing up people is stressful, and brains are good at holding onto stressful topics, no matter how much you want to move on. I journal or talk to a friend with the focus on my own feelings. Think “this makes me feel x”, not “what should I do?”

    2. Dave*

      I am here COVID or not. Hobbies / house projects help me turn it off to a certain amount. House demo is a great stress reliever for me.

    3. PolarVortex*

      If you can swing going out and about for a walk, do it after work. Think of it as your “commute” and do your usual commute things during it. (Me I listen to music but I know people like audio books and podcasts.) This should help you reset being “home” from “work”.

      Beyond that it’s redirecting your thought process. The moment you begin thinking about work, pause. Acknowledge that thought. (I’ve done this outloud, eg: “I cannot stop worrying about how Adam and Eve are doing on a project by themselves after upsetting the Big Boss.”) Then reminding yourself now is not the time. (“Okay, I’ll throw a check in with them on the calendar tomorrow morning if I still think it’s a problem when I wake up.”) Then redirecting. (“Time for me to reorganize my library. Does espionage history go with cryptography history or should it be with submarine history if all my espionage history is about submarines? And does Julie Child belong with espionage history, WW2 history/biographies, or my cooking biographies?”)

    4. Twisted Lion*

      Someone suggested a long time ago to actually leave your house and come back inside. I took it further one day and sat in my car for ten minutes and then came in. it did help.

      1. Reba*

        Taking a walk at the end of the day is wonderful (especially now that it’s light past 4 pm). Since getting a dog, this walk is now mandatory and it’s been great to both clear my head and make a break between the work day and free time.

        1. Hotdog not dog*

          This is what is preserving the last frayed remnants of my sanity! The dog is walked at 4:30, and not a minute later. He runs to the back door as soon as he hears me close the laptop. It really helps me to clear my head and transition from work mode.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      This is going to sound stupid, bear with me. Take the last 15 minutes of each workday and write down your to-do list for tomorrow. Spill your thoughts out on paper. I couldn’t believe how such a little thing could make a difference.

    6. Intermittent Introvert*

      I put my “work stuff” in a box. The notebook, work pen (different from personal pens), the work laptop, headphones, etc. My workstation transforms to my home.

    7. allathian*

      Do something that’ll help you transition. I close my work laptop and go for a walk unless the weather’s absolutely awful. That said, I’m an individual contributor rather than a manager, so I rarely find myself thinking about work stuff when I’m not actually working.

  26. LQ*

    I have an excruciatingly meaningless question.

    I have someone who reports to me who uses a special font in outlook. It’s brutally hard to read. (Dotum) It’s not a fixed with font, she’s not a developer, it’s not a dyslexia friendly font, it’s not a more readable font under any metric. It’s really hard to read.

    She sends very complex questions to me for approval and she’s very smart but not a good described of problems and I often have to take apart what she wrote and redo it to understand what she’s asking for approval on. When I do this I usually just paste it into another document and change the font and rewrite it to get the what she’s asking for.

    Her overall communication needs work but she’s got so much on her plate right now its fine, I’ll spend the time to take apart what she wrote to make sense of it and get her what she needs. At some point in the future we’ll work on her writing.

    Would I be really annoying and shitty if I asked her to change her default font in outlook? Should I suck it up and live with it?
    (*side note there’s a conversation I’ve been having with everyone here and there about accessibility overall and this is absolutely NOT a font that is good for accessibility. This is a font that falls on the “make it hard to read to slow people down so they spend time with your copy” side of the fence rather than a “get out of the way of the message” side. Part of our work does include accessibility, much less for the specific work she’s doing now but it is a part of the work that we’d like her to be able to grow into, and that she’d like to grow into.)

    1. Allypopx*

      I think that’s a perfectly reasonable request. You can frame it under the accessibility conversation if that makes you feel less jerky (you’re not, btw) but you can also just flag it as unprofessional and unreadable and tell her it has to change. That’s well within your rights as her manager.

    2. LDF*

      I think it’s fine to tell your report the font is hard to read and that you would like her to change it back to the default.

    3. NotAPirate*

      I think it’s fine to request. That gives her the chance to bring up if there is some reason she’s using it. I’d offer her a list of acceptable fonts too. “Hey this is minor but your outlook font is hard to read, can you drop it back to the default or Courier or Arial or Times New Roman or Comic Sans? Thanks” I know several people who use default font but their default signature line has a interesting font choice.

    4. Morticia*

      Just tell her. She’s creating extra work for you. I’m sure you would have mentioned if you thought that was her goal, so, since it’s not, telling her would be a kindness. Especially since you are most likely not alone.

    5. Littorally*

      That’s a perfectly reasonable request.

      “Hey, Jane, I’m having a really difficult time reading this font you use in your emails. When emailing me, can you be sure to use a font like [Insert Font Here] so that I can focus on the substance of your questions?” You might also consider listing qualities of a font — ie, serif vs sans-serif, fixed-width if that’s what you’re looking for, etc, as well as giving a couple font names you find particularly readable.

      Let her make the decision whether to change the default font or to select a font specifically for emails to you. Is it a concern of yours if she emails others with this same font? (It might be, since she reports to you, but it also might not be.)

    6. Librarian of SHIELD*

      This is a completely reasonable thing for you to ask.

      If the work you do has an accessibility component, you may actually want to see if it’s possible to put together an email policy that gives a list of acceptable fonts and some signature dos and don’ts. That way, all of your staff will be on the same page and any external people you may need to send emails to will have a consistent experience with your staff.

    7. RagingADHD*

      You’re overthinking it.

      “Report, from now on please use only the default font in Outlook. Your custom font is hard to read.”

      You’re the manager. It’s okay to give instructions.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yes, please just instruct her as to what you need. Next time don’t let something like this go on and on. Just say it the first time you see it. It’s a minor thing. If she does not react like it’s a minor thing that is good information to know and tell her that you will answer the emails that are written in the font you requested.

      1. Malika*

        What i immediately thought of too. In the short term ctrl+a > ctrl+c > ctrl+z onto Word from e-mail and change the font. In the long term, asking her to change the font is not a big ask. I had colleagues that would use weird colours for sending out standard e-mails and it was really jaaring. I can imagine that fonts give you a similar reaction.

    9. Policy Wonk*

      We have standard fonts. They have changed a couple of times due to management preference, but everyone uses the same one. Standard, no need for adjustment. You can tell her to use a different font, or you can just tell everyone to use e.g., Times New Roman 12.

    10. Never Nicky*

      Does she use this font for people outside the organisation? That wouldn’t be a good look.

      Which is why Comms teams like mine spend a lot of thought and time producing guidelines for fonts, colours, signatures, logos etc – and enforcing them.

      If you have brand guidelines, it might make this conversation more neutral.

    11. The Real Persephone Mongoose*

      It’s a reasonable and legit request. I had my direct manager ask me to not use a specific font that was a bit more ornate than normal because it didn’t display well on mobile devices. Was simple and quick request. I changed the font. No hard feelings. Request was made nicely and explained. So ask her to change it. Explain why you are asking. If she doesn’t comply, reiterate it. If it still doesn’t change, start responding to her emails with ‘I’ve requested you change fonts to something more legible. Please resend this email using a more suitable font as requested.” Lather, rinse, repeat. Hopefully, it won’t go to that point though.

    12. fhqwhgads*

      It’s neither annoying nor shitty. It’s reasonable.
      FWIW, also every job I’ve had for the past 15 years had a style guide requirement that everyone use the same font, size and color for company email. So it’s really not unheard of that she wouldn’t get to choose whatever font she wants anyway.

    13. Chaordic One*

      I think you’re being perfectly reasonable, but you do sometimes run into someone who will take offense at your suggestion. The framing it as an accessibility issue was an excellent recommendation. When I was an admin, my boss regularly corresponded with someone who used a hard-to-read font. The person who was sending the correspondence was supposedly “high strung” and using the font was an expression of herself and it would disrespectful to her to ask her to change it. My boss would forward it to me and have me reformat everything into Times Roman and then send it back to her. (rolls eyes)

    14. allathian*

      Totally OK to ask her to change the font. If you can combine it with the accessibility talks you’ve been having with other reports, even better. Email font choice isn’t really the place to express your personality at work, especially if the font is hard to read.

    15. Usagi*

      I didn’t see anyone else bring this up, but just so we’re covering all bases: if I’m not mistaken Dotum is the Korean font, right? Is this employee Korean, that is, their first language is Korean, their default language on their computer is Korean, etc.? This could be a reason their default font is set to Dotum (not to mention the issues you allude to about her communication).

      That’s not to say you can’t ask them to change it, my point is more along the lines of if they’re Korean, just be careful you’re not singling them out for this; are there any other employees who use custom fonts that you’re not asking to change? You don’t want to create the perception that you’re discriminating against the one Korean person on your team, but allowing all the Americans (or whatever nationality is applicable) to do whatever they want.

      Or maybe they don’t have any relation to Korea at all and just chose it for a different reason. Still, something to consider.

      All that said, I might pull back on the assumption that Dotum is a font that’s made to “make it hard to read” on purpose… it’s designed as such since Korean letters are a lot more complex than many others (including English), and need more space. You’ll see similar designs in Japanese and Chinese fonts (MS Gothic for Japanese and MingLiu for Chinese, if you want to try them out in an Office application). Yeah, from an English-speaking perspective it doesn’t look great compared to, say, Calibri or Arial, but there’s a reason for it.

  27. Cobblestone*

    What do you do when someone uses the wrong pronouns for someone else on a virtual meeting?

    I attended a virtual workshop of about 50 attendees. There were many people from different organizations (i.e., not my company) in attendance. There were several presentation updates from the different organizations, and one presenter, “J”, stated that they use they/them pronouns. After their update, their supervisor presented, and in referring to J’s work, used she/her multiple times (without correcting himself). Afterward, another colleague of J’s presented and also used she/her pronouns (again without correcting himself) when referring to J’s previous update.

    It upset me, but I’m not sure what I should have done. All of them were not from my company, and I don’t personally know any of them. Should I have interrupted them during their presentations to correct them? Message the host (who was also not part of their company)?

    1. NotAPirate*

      I’ve seen people change their zoom name to be Name (pronouns). If its people from their own org that’s just nasty. I don’t think you can do anything in the moment, I’d have tried to ask a question and use the correct pronouns just to make a point. The workshop should have a policy going forward, whether that’s the host interjecting via chat or interrupting. Are you going to work with J again? If so you could ask them how they’d prefer you handle it.

      1. Cobblestone*

        Yeah, maybe I will send a note to the host (whom I know better) for next time there’s a similar meeting. I’ve never worked with J directly, but if we do in the future, I’ll send them a message. Thanks, that’s good advice.

    2. Dave*

      I would chat box privately to point out to someone in my company or who I knew really well. If I was in a leadership role I think you could have a big picture note but otherwise not much you can do. I do think people adding pronouns to their zoom name can be helpful.

      1. Cobblestone*

        Thanks — I’ll bring it up with one of the hosts. I’m not in a leadership position, but I know there’s been an increase in diversity inclusion within my own company at least.

    3. PolarVortex*

      Poor J! I am mis-pronouned in my work so perhaps I can speak on this a bit. I appreciate it when people ask what they should do to me, because they don’t want to rock my boat.

      But honestly? The nicest things people have done for me is either a) asking a question that uses my correct pronouns “I had a question for Polar, does his work with x affect y”, or b) when they’ve been in a position in that meeting of power (another speaker, the person leading the thing, etc) gently reminding others. “Just a gentle reminder to all, Polar said he prefers he/him pronouns, mine are he/him or they/them.”

      Quite honestly, the people I always see misgender me are the people who struggle with change anyhow, so you sort of get used to it and stop fighting the battle, but just people saying they care or quietly using the right ones in the same meeting as the ones who keep ignoring me makes everything brighter.

      1. Cobblestone*

        I wish I had done that (deliberately used their correct pronouns)! I’ll keep that in mind for next time, thanks!

        1. PolarVortex*

          Thank you for caring enough to ask and learn! Honestly people like you are the ones who truly make me pause and remember there are some flipping wonderful people in this world who love and respect me as I am and I am grateful every day for them.

      2. Littorally*

        All of this.

        Another thing that a friend does socially for me, and which you might use as well, is to get out in front of the misgendering and very deliberately use the right pronouns at the start, as a reminder.

        “Hey all, I’m so glad to see J on the call this week. I’ve got some questions about Y that pertain to their work in X.”

        Obviously that depends on a natural way to work that into the convo. Don’t force it. But it can be helpful.

      3. Aubrey*

        I second the “deliberately using their pronouns anywhere it feels natural” advice. Unfortunately if the person is from another company and you’re not in any kind of leadership role, there’s probably not much else you can do. Definitely don’t cut in and correct people unless you know J personally and have confirmed *with them* that it’s something they’d appreciate. I’ve had very well-meaning friends do this for me in social situations and still hated it – I think I’d die of shame if it happened in a work context. Some people might appreciate it, but personally I don’t want that kind of attention drawn to me.

        Also, Polar, all the sympathy! My current job is the first one that I’ve felt ok to tentatively let people know my pronouns, and I don’t think I’ve ever once heard anyone actually use the correct ones.

        1. PolarVortex*

          The first steps are the hardest! Honestly I’m lucky that I have people who are willing to care so much at work, and I’m happy to be the irritating piece of sand if it’ll make this company into a pearl for future non-cisgendered people.

          Just keep on keeping on, know that it’ll get better.

    4. anonforthis*

      I am cisgender, but we have one person on a small staff who is non-binary and uses they/them pronouns. I’d say, if you’re going to continue to have contact with these people, ask J if they want you to gently correct others on the team behind their back.

      In practice, when our non-binary colleague isn’t in the room, we have three categories of people: those who nonchalantly use their pronouns, those who use them but seem to be working pretty hard at it, and a few who don’t even try and just misgender the person.

    5. Flair of Ashes*

      Unless you’re in some kind of leadership position I wouldn’t say anything to the ppl using the wrong pronouns. However, what you could do is take any available opportunity to address ‘J’ (let’s face it, there will be more meetings and more Js treated this way, deliberately or otherwise) using the correct pronoun or name they’ve chosen for themselves. Whether spectators notice or notice, J will and they’ll appreciate you for respecting and upholding their personal gender identity. Additionally, you using the right pronouns will hopefully make the next person to address J aware of what they prefer.
      If it were deliberately done maybe J is the only person in the ‘room’ deserving of your respect anyways.

      1. Cobblestone*

        Thanks! I’m not in a leadership position (and junior within my own company) but I’ll contact the host and hopefully future meetings will be more inclusive. I will try as well to use their correct pronouns deliberately — I wish I had done so!

  28. Potatoes gonna potate*

    For those of you who took a break from working – when did you decide it was time to go back to work?

    This is the first January in a decade that I’m not working and it feels weird. 

    Still super embarrassed and ashamed to say it out loud but I was fired from 2 jobs last year. I feel like sh*t. First was a 5+ year job, was “furloughed” at the start of COVID. Second was a few weeks in September….performance issues. After the short stint, I took a break – timing worked out since we had some stuff going on. All that’s done and were settled now.

    Well, it’s really silly but earlier this week my husband shared a tiktok that reeeeally made me miss work. It sparked a conversation and how it may be a good idea for me to get back in to work in any capacity (contract, FT/PT etc).

    Thing is, I’m kind of torn. I have no idea what I want. I don’t want finances or desperation to dictate my choices again. But I am also enjoying my free time right now–I had desperately wanted some free time to get my health in order, cultivate some hobbies etc but didnt want to take the leap and quit my job. Well, when I did lose my job, I was pregnant and high risk so I couldn’t really go out and do anything; being stuck at home made me too depressed and anxious to do anything productive. Now I have a baby and free time to myself is even more precious now.

    I guess I’m also worried about my own competence and skill level. I started as staff and worked my way up to manager at my long term job and had good reviews but informally I sucked? At the short term job, I was hired as a senior and promptly fired for not producing at a level of a senior because there were things I literally didn’t know and was too slow to catch on. I feel like I should look for lower level positions next time but idk if I’d even be hireable at that point.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Out of curiosity, what’s the quoted “furloughed” part about? Getting furloughed at the start of the pandemic doesn’t mean you weren’t good or competent at your job, plenty of people lost their jobs due to covid, and it has nothing to do with their worth or capabilities. As for the second one, honestly it just doesn’t sound like it was a good fit. I can’t think of a reasonable place that would get rid of someone only a few weeks in that wasn’t due to poor hiring or unreasonable expectations, so I’d honestly write that one off. Also, it sounds like you may have been going back to work with a newborn after a high-risk pregnancy? You also mentioned wanting to get your health in order, so I think there was a lot going on that you can stop blaming yourself for, and be a little kinder to yourself.

      Overall, I think if you want to get back into the workplace you can, but try not to worry about your own competence and skill level. You sound like a very capable person who worked hard and progressed and earned their way up the ladder, and then had a rough year in which a pandemic happened (and continues to happen!), had a high-risk pregnancy, and got hired at a crappy place that treated you poorly. I think it’s also okay to not go back to work if you’re not ready (and it sounds like you might not need to financially) – there’s absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying your baby, exploring hobbies, and enjoying your free time now if you’re able to. It might also be good to talk with a therapist if you aren’t already – I’m a huge proponent of therapy for all, and as you navigate these life changes it’s always good to have a neutral third-party to discuss these things with.

      Good luck! I’m rooting for 2021 to better to you than 2020 was.

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        Quotes because COVID was the official reason but real reason was that my grand boss hated me from day 1 and just needed a valid reason. Why she kept
        me on for 5 years, continually berating me yet prompting me…idk. Nothing I can prove though so.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Honestly? I wasn’t intending to go back at the time. My husband’s job was eliminated and we needed an income immediately. He had specialized skills that required a long complex search, and I had generalized skills that let me walk into the nearest temp agency and have a decent job in a week.

      Not a dream job. Not a job I was thrilled about (that took years to find). But it met our needs at the time, and was fair, low-stress, pleasant environment, and stable.

      In the long run, that was very healthy for me because it changed my priorities and attitude to the type of satisfaction I was looking for at work vs. in the rest of my life.

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        If I do go back that’s what I’m looking for. Pleasant, low stress, benefits. The more I think about it the more I miss the lifestyle the main job brought me than the actual job — stability, health insurance, socialization, steady paycheck, getting dressed up, separation of home and work. All of which I fear I will never get back in any capacity

    3. Annabeth Nass*

      First, congratulations on your new baby!

      If you have the option to stay home, why not do it? Depending on your industry, you might be able to get a certificate or some type of training in your field while you are out of work, so that you don’t feel cut off from the working world.

      Also, being furloughed is not the same as being fired, and shouldn’t cause you to feel bad about yourself at all! It’s business and it happened to a lot of people in 2020.

    4. lapgiraffe*

      Potatoes, I’m starting to think we are the same person. I’m in the same boat (minus the children) and I appreciate the feedback you’ve gotten on this so far – your furlough was not a firing, for starters – but I will also validate your feelings because I’m feeling the same way, and it sucks. I don’t think isolation helps, either. I’d take the time (if you can) to process and move past the major self esteem blow, and enjoy the time with your new baby while you’re doing it. You are definitely hirable, you will be tomorrow and you will be a year from now or five years from now.

    5. Malika*

      I have been where you are and it is a very big challenge to go back to work, especially in this climate.

      Only you know whether you are ready to go back to work. Finances can make a return urgent, but if you crash out in a couple of months, returning to work early can be counterproductive. Are you able to take a temporary assignment or part time work? These constructions make it a lot easier to go back to work after a break, and you can always scale up to a permanent position or full time work when you are more ready. Do you know what skills you need to work on that you missed in the past couple of jobs? Courses and consistent training of those weak areas can make a world of difference in your new job.

      It’s very normal to doubt your skill level when you got fired from a job and then have a spell of unemployment. My contract was not extended after a year because I couldn’t keep up with the workload, and found it hard to communicate effectively with very chaotic and at the same time type A executives. A combination of burnout and pandemic then had me out of a job for 1.5 year. Since three months i am back at work doing something completely different for a very small pay cut and haven’t felt this good in years. I found pivoting to a different type of job and working on my weak areas (planning my workload and speaking up) to be game changers. I hope you are able to find yours and get back to work when you are ready.

  29. Newbie*

    I just started a new internship this week and it’s been off to a really great start! I’m working with a PR/comms firm but i have noticed one thing. When my boss asks me to write some short copy (social media, statements, etc) I always ask for feedback and she has responded every time with “amazing” or “it’s really great” and then maybe one very small thing like don’t forget to abbreviate X into Y or something that doesn’t really have so much to do with the quality of the work. Then she’ll go to edit it and sometimes either she or her bosses will then almost completely rewrite what I have written. I’m not offended by this – they know our clients best and are obviously more experienced and better writers but should I be pushing for more feedback? I want to improve my writing. I also want to feel like what I’ve written hasn’t just slowed us down but has been actually helpful. At the same time, there’s a part of me thinking if I have satisfied my boss then that’s all I can do and I shouldn’t be concerned if her bosses rewrite my work. Any and all advice would be appreciated!

    1. Jaded Millenial*

      The best internships are where the company helps you just as much as you help them. Trust your boss, listen to the feedback, and try to integrate it into your future work. You have JUST STARTED. Be patient and things will feel more balanced as you move forward.

    2. Chauncy Gardener*

      I would take the final version and compare it in detail with what you originally submitted and try to see what changes were made. Then incorporate those into your next piece of work and see if it sticks. Lather, rinse, repeat.

    3. WellRed*

      It’s been a week. I work for a news publication and we have pretty much zero expectations for actual writing hires for the first three months. We ease them into house style and the industry we cover. And for the first year, as I recall, I was constantly thinking “OMG! What am I doing!”

    4. linger*

      Maybe you could try making that explicit when asking for feedback: “Is there anything I can do in terms of style or content to reduce the amount of editing my writing needs?”
      But also bear in mind that it’s usually a lot easier to edit something (even if it’s an almost total rewrite) than to write from scratch, so your contribution may still be helpful even if little of it is ultimately used. It is entirely possible that the best they expect (especially from an intern) is that what you supply is grammatically correct, and has relevant and thematically organized content, so that it can be easily reworked.

    5. Newbie*

      thank everyone for your help!! I think I’m just a bit self-conscious because this is my first role in this field t(that I’m really interested in exploring further) and they’ve also made it clear they do look to hire some interns full time so I wanted to make sure my work is up to snuff and that I was doing everything I could.

    6. More Coffee Please*

      Just wanted to say that this is something I’ve experienced at work, too – getting good feedback on something only to see it be changed completely without anyone coming back to me and saying why. Agree with the suggestion above to do the work yourself and compare what you wrote with the final version to identify the differences. If more time has passed and this is still happening, you could ask your boss about it more generally (like feedback on your writing in general rather than for a specific assignment).

  30. Rusty Shackelford*

    Things you wanted to say to your coworkers this week, but couldn’t:

    I am very, very aware that when you say “You’re the expert on this, so you should do it the way you want to do it” you really mean “I find this part of my job boring and I don’t really want to spend any time on it at all.” And you should be very, very aware that fobbing the whole thing off on me, instead of doing the parts you can/should do and letting me do the parts you’re unable to do, means your little project is going to be pretty low on my list of priorities.

    1. Cendol*

      Ha! Yes. What I wanted to say this week: “Yes, I know you’re upset about the new administration, but don’t take it out on me! New regs are coming whether you like it or not.”

    2. Web Crawler*

      “quit leaving Ravi off the code reviews! It’s rude, it’s racist, and this is why nobody wants to work with you”

      We now have exactly one non-white developer on our team, Ravi, and my awful coworker John keeps leaving him off of every single code review. And then I silently add Ravi to every code review. I talked to the team lead who says it’s an accident. I left comments on a few of John’s code reviews saying “hey, you left out Ravi, be more careful next time” which John ignored. And I’m so frustrated. I don’t know if the rest of the team, including Ravi, even notices

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Once or twice is an accident. This is a deliberate. Email the lead each time it happens.

      2. TechWorker*

        Can you passive aggressively forget John a few times? (Probably not a *good* way to deal with it but like…) or can you start using a mailer for code reviews so it’s impossible to exclude people?

      3. MacGillicuddy*

        How about “Hey John, why do you always leave Ravi off the code review mailing list?”

        And then wait for him to answer while you stare innocently into his face.

        1. tangerineRose*

          Yeah, this. Or say to him “John, it looks… odd when you leave Ravi off the list. If you keep doing that, people are going to think you’re racist.”

          (Yes, we all already think this, but saying it this way might get him to stop doing this.)

    3. Just a PM*

      Mine is “Of all the problems we’re having on this project, *you’re* concerned about how much blank space is in the margin? Not the 3-months-late calendar plugin? Not all the data that got corrupted when you migrated the database? Not the broken RSS feeds that need to be reconfigured? Not the incorrect configuration that’s preventing users from collaborating on documents together?” It came out as “Hmm, I see what you’re saying.”

    4. Dave*

      Mine is “do your job” and “answer the question I asked please” (although the second one I have used a few times this week in frustration)

    5. Lucky*

      This week a prevented myself from telling my coworker “I’m explaining how to do this thing because I had a really good interview this morning and don’t plan to be here for much longer.”

    6. Pippa K*

      Oh dear. When I say “you’re the expert on this” I literally mean “I respect your expertise and don’t want to step on your toes here.” I hope I haven’t been communicating something completely different by accident!

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Probably not. There’s a big difference between “I respect your expertise so I’m going to consult you and/or let you do something I’m not qualified to do” and “I don’t want to do this so I’m going to pretend I don’t know how.”

        1. Claire*

          Ugh i have this exact issue with one of my staff and am really reaching the end of my rope. She thinks everything is beneath her and so either “forgets” to do it or does a shit job until eventually i do just take it away from her and complete it myself. She then makes comments about how I’m really the best person to do the thing…ok but you are the assistant and I’m you’re director, so if you can’t do your job of assisting me then why are you here???

    7. anonymous for this*

      “You have set up a perfect missing stair situation, TWICE, and your advice is for the rest of us to be really nice about it because supposedly there is nothing that can be done about it. Why are you surprised that everybody else is unhappy?”

    8. Incognito just this once*

      Mine’s not very exciting, but I’d really like my boss to stop and consider that “not everyone has drank the korporate kool aid regarding using all MS products all the time!”

      (Trust me, the MS environment is pretty new for our former MAC-based team) and she hasn’t considered that. Case in point: She has been sending TEAMS invite for our weekly team meeting for five monts. Two weeks ago, she made it a recurring invite which apparently autopopulates your Outlook calendar forever. Half of us don’t use Outlook for email and therefore did not have the meeting invite and did not know we were missing it.

    9. RagingADHD*

      If you want me to come up with a brilliant theme that ties our spring campaign together, you will need to actually give me some smidgen of information about what we are promoting.

      Otherwise, you’re going to get “Yay for us because awesomeness is awesome.”

      I can spin straw into gold, but I can’t spin nothing into something.

    10. LadyByTheLake*

      My “couldn’t say it but got darn close” this week:

      I know that you have a grand vision that you just thought up for a complicated, highly regulated, super-risky thing that you want to do, but it is complicated, highly regulated and super-risky and it will take months to build (let alone build properly), so maybe you shouldn’t have promised the investors that it will be part of next week’s roll out.

    11. Dumpster Fire*

      Mine is: “If you want to be the union president [public school teachers], you shouldn’t just sit there with a goofy smile on your face while the school board is talking about bringing thousands of kids back to school weeks earlier than planned and – even with 80% of the students still remote – we have the most Covid cases of any district in the state. You should open your mouth and stand up for your colleagues, but you aren’t doing that because you get to teach fully remotely.”

    12. Can't Sit Still*

      Do not text me on my personal cell while I am on vacation to ask what your cost center is. Your cost center is the same as it’s always been and is conveniently located in multiple places, including Outlook, right next to your name.

    13. Hotdog not dog*

      The status on the teapot project is that instead of getting it done, here we are discussing why it isn’t finished yet!

    14. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      No, we do not need to have a meeting to relay new instructions just because half the people getting the new instructions don’t bother to read their emails. The people who aren’t reading their emails are also not listening in the meetings, and if we put it in email, they have it in writing for future reference and we have it in writing that we gave it to them and will be holding them accountable for it. What on god’s green earth makes you think a meeting is a better plan for this.

    15. curly sue*

      Not co-workers, but…

      It’s in the syllabus. It’s in the syllabus. IT’S IN THE GODFORSAKEN SYLLABUS.

    16. Mimmy*

      “Why do you laugh at everything you say???” – I want to say this to one of the supervisors during meetings.

      “Will you please *&$%ing mute yourself??” – I think we all want to say this, but there’s one person in particular who does. not. mute. They are rather slow with technology so I kinda get it, but I wish our manager, who runs the meeting, would say something.

    17. MTBer*

      “You, the CEO, are asking me in front of 5 of our own execs and half-a-dozen people from another company if it is okay if I lead this project that we haven’t talked about and is going to be a mess? How could I say no? (Really, how could I?)”

    18. Chaordic One*

      Yes, we know. There is a reference manual citation for that. (There’s also a needle in a haystack.) Moreover, if there’s a reference manual citation for that, it’s probably incomplete and will include additional citations that you’ll have to look and (which may or may not be relevant to the issue at hand) and which will include references to obscure terms which you’ll also have to look up.

    19. KoiFeeder*

      Also not a coworker, but:

      At this point, it doesn’t matter whether you’re incompetent or malicious. If you don’t intend to do your job, I will drop this class and I will tell student services that I am dropping this class because you have failed to uphold your end of the bargain, the fact that it’ll push back my graduation be damned.

  31. Anon for this*

    Just a brief rant. Had a group brainstorming session where my grandboss told me to stop wasting his time, in front of everyone! (The whole point of these sessions is to spitball. We always have some wacky ideas. Mine were actually work-related, instead of being about, say, llamas in space.) My coworkers messaged me in solidarity afterward, which was nice, but I’ve been stomping around angrily at home thinking, well, fine, I’m not going to waste *my* time doing more than the bare minimum, since you find no value in my contributions. I probably need to take a few days off…

    1. Octopus*

      That’s brutal and sounds really unfair. I would feel super demoralizing in your shoes (and probably check out job postings out of spite). I don’t really have any other advice for you apart from that!

    2. Mockingjay*

      I just took two days off. In the middle of the week. With like 2 hours notice to my supervisor.

      I’ve been wanting a break for a while, but kept putting it off because I got stuck in the mindset that I had to have a REASON, even though I’ve been tired, cranky, and unproductive for months. The last couple of years my time off has been used to care for ill family members, so I’ve been hoarding PTO. I finally realized I need to take care of me before I do anything else.

      I feel so much better – not 100%, but better. I actually did real work yesterday and and today. Still would like a real vacation – wouldn’t we all! – but I’m going to try for at least one Friday off each month for a long weekend.

      1. Mockingjay*

        *sorry, pressed [Enter] too soon.

        If you have the leave, I heartily recommend you take it. Turn off the computer, disable the email on your phone, and unplug for a day or two. It won’t solve anything, but will put you in a better frame of mind to deal with (ignore) Grandboss.

    3. Caterpie*

      So sorry that happened to you! Spitballing/brainstorming sessions can be really fraught, in my experience. I’d be tempted not to participate ever again as well. I’m glad it seems like you have nice coworkers though!

  32. Good Vibes Steve*

    I would love some tips to be better at sharing my achievements at work. I grew up in a culture in which bragging is a big No-no, and I’ve internalized this to the point that people at work don’t know all that I’ve done. So, how do you share achievements without feeling like a bragger?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      What opportunities do you have to share your achievements? Do you have regular one-on-one meetings with your manager? Some kind of annual or semi-annual performance review?

    2. NotAPirate*

      You can work it into the how are you type conversations, How’s your day going? Better than expected just found out I was nominated for XYZ award!

      But I don’t think your coworkers need to be kept up to date on a lot of your achievements. Saved the company 200k! Your bosses know, and they’re the ones who will use that information when you say I deserve a raise I did this 200k save last quarter. Telling your coworkers that seems off to me.

      How do you observe your coworkers sharing their achievements? Mimic them to match the office culture.

      1. Octopus*

        I think one way to do this (if the culture in your office is good) is to make a point of publicly praising when your coworkers help you out/achieve something. At least in my experience, people tend to reciprocate that public praise when you then help them out/go above and beyond. (i.e., next team meeting, you can I want to thank Tim for the extra hours he put in on the Y report. Really helped us get it across the finish line and looking polished). And then when you help out Tim/have an accomplishment he’s aware of, hopefully he’ll give you a shoutout.

        I think it’s always a little transparent when people toot their own horn, but that’s life. You should at least keep written doc or something so you can reference these accomplishments when relevant (reviews, salary negotiations, etc.).

    3. DerJungerLudendorff*

      You may have to feel like a bragger sometimes!
      Since not doing so got you here in the first place. So your idea of bragging is probably too broad for your own good, and recalibrating that will sometimes feel uncomfortable and like you’re overdoing it.

  33. Eager Beaver*

    I have a really weird issue that probably seems like a non-problem, but it’s really bothering me – my boss keeps calling me “amazing” and “a genius” when I’m doing literally nothing. Every time she says it (both in one-on-ones and in meetings with others) I feel really uncomfortable and I’m not sure how to handle it. I guess really this is two questions – how do I handle not having any work to do, and how do I handle my boss heaping me with over-the-top praise for the few things I am doing?

    Some context: I work in higher education in a student support role. I just started this job at the end of November, which is a weird time to be onboarded since I only had a couple weeks of work before everyone was off for Christmas. My role is brand-new to the institution – someone had my job title before me, but they had a completely different job description. When that person retired, the role was re-imagined and I was brought in to fill it. The problem is that there’s not really any work for me to do right now. The focus of the role as it currently exists is primarily to plan new initiatives and programs, get them approved by various institutional stakeholders, and then manage/run the programs once they’re operational. My first few weeks, my boss handed off some very preliminary thoughts and ideas and asked me to build on them. I created some great plans (apparently, “GENIUS” plans), but because I’m so new I don’t really have the institutional knowledge or social capital to be able to take the lead on the approval processes. My boss, meanwhile, is completely overloaded (which is part of the reason my role was created) and doesn’t really have the bandwidth to champion these projects. Every week in our one-on-ones I ask her “what needs to happen next?”, and it’s always that she needs to reach out to so-and-so for feedback, or get approval from the Provost to do such-and-such – and there are valid reasons why I can’t do those things myself yet (institutional politics, mainly). But in the meantime there’s not really anything I CAN do. I also ask her every week if there are tasks that I can take on or things I can take off her plate, and sometimes she gives me some busywork-type stuff to do, but it’s never anything substantial. I don’t know how much of that is inability to delegate and how much is just because I’m too new to be of much use. I straight up told her on Monday that I’m bored and want to do more – the impacts of that conversation have yet to be seen. The projects I’ve been planning will create substantial work for me once they get up and running, but that probably won’t happen fully until August.

    The past couple of weeks, she has finally been able to put some things in motion towards getting our plans approved. Whenever we have meetings with faculty members or other stakeholders about these projects, she always goes on and on about what a GENIUS I am, and how AMAZING this plan I created is. The first few times it was a really nice feeling to be praised so vociferously and publicly. But now that there have been so many weeks of me doing basically nothing, it’s starting to feel ungenuine and uncomfortable. A couple of times I’ve jokingly said “well I’m not sure if I can live up to (boss’s) comments, but I’ll do my best!”, but that feels like I’m disparaging my ideas/work, which I’m not – I’m proud of the work I’ve done, I just want to do a lot more of it! The culture of the institution in general is that everyone is wearing multiple hats and juggling lots of responsibilities, and I constantly feel torn between feeling guilty that I’m doing so little, and feeling frustrated that my boss isn’t doing a better job of onboarding me. I’m not really sure how to proceed at this point. Do I address the praise, or just the lack of work? HOW do I address the lack of work beyond what I’ve already done?

    1. AGD*

      I commiserate. I also work in education, and one of my superiors keeps calling me things like “an MS Office genius,” to the point that I haven’t shared any of their feedback with one of my other superiors since the rhetoric about me is so hyperbolic it’s barely worth taking seriously. I think it’s because that superior is heavily overloaded, runs into tasks they wouldn’t know how to begin to address, and then sees me take care of them as if by magic. I wonder if a flat, gentle, positive, repetitive “this is what I was brought on to do” would eventually get the idea across that you’re just doing the bare minimum.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Is your boss hyperbolic in speech generally?

      I have a friend who calls everyone she likes “amazing” and “genius” almost as a verbal tic. If your boss is effusive by nature, this may be her way of reassuring you that you are appreciated and she’s glad to have you on the team despite the current roadblocks.

    3. Girasol*

      Sounds like the boss knows you’re under-challenged and is perhaps feeling a little guilty that they can’t find appropriate work for you just now. So they’re offering excessive praise to make you feel valued and encourage you to stick around until the job gets more interesting.

    4. Hi there*

      Another higher ed person here. I think your boss is very excited about your ideas and potential but overwhelmed. I’ve been in this situation, where I was the logjam and didn’t make the most of the talent I had available. You need to drag your boss’s attention away from the present and somehow into planning for your role/project to be a success. Can you raise the fear of Covid budget cuts if you don’t get more done? At the very least your boss can make a list of stakeholders at your level or other folks you should meet to build a little support for your ideas and help implementing once the time comes.

  34. peachy*

    I’m probably overreacting on this, but would like to hear thoughts from the commentariat. My manager and I were discussing performance goals over email. In that email, they gave me the only feedback I’ve received from them in the almost 2 years I’ve worked with them: “nice job. you’re very efficient.”

    Something about the word “efficient” irks me to no end. First, the only reason they think I’m efficient is because the work my manager gives me is incredibly simple work that anyone with my level of experience would find to be too easy. Think: the equivalent of asking a graphic designer to print something out or format a simple Word document.

    Second, I feel like “efficient” is a weird word to use. I’m not “efficient,” I’m highly skilled and experienced. Something about the word has the connotation at being good at following orders or procedures, and feels like it’s discounting my experience and skill level, and my ability to think independently and exercise judgment. This stands in stark contrast to feedback I’ve received from the heads of other departments: “very creative and hardworking,” which is feedback I was very grateful and appreciative to receive.

    So… I guess my question is: do other people have the same baggage with the word “efficient”? Or am I being weird about this? (As you can tell, this relationship has not been going well, and it’s quite possible I’m at the BEC stage with my manager.)

    1. Kramerica Industries*

      I had the same reaction before during a 1:1 review with my manager and I think she noticed that my face twitched when she said “efficient”. I said that I wouldn’t consider myself efficient because the work was simple and straight-forward.

      Her response was that me thinking that the work is easy is what makes me efficient. She can trust that I will just get it done, she doesn’t have to ask me about meeting deadlines, and that even if I think it’s easy, I’m still motivated to do the work well. Think about the times you’ve rolled your eyes and thought “X is so easy, why is this person making it complicated/not getting it done?” Framing it that way helped me to understand how “efficient” was a positive in my favour. “Efficient” is more of an overarching term for the way you respond to the work and how other people perceive you in doing it.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      do other people have the same baggage with the word “efficient”?

      I’m pretty proud of being efficient. I actually like being efficient and think it’s one of the several qualities I bring to the workplace.

      Or am I being weird about this?

      That said, I don’t think you’re being weird about this. While I am proud of being efficient, I don’t want that to be the only thing I’m described as being, especially if it’s reference to easy tasks. Part of my efficiency is doing quickly and well what others take much longer to do (or what others do sloppily in the same amount of time). It sounds as if your manager has said “You do only one thing well, and it’s this simple thing,” and not really “You are so efficient in ways no one else is.”

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Ditto: I also like “efficient,” and for a training exercise this past week I had to contact three leaders in my department and ask them for their top three words to describe me – “efficient” was the first of my boss’s three. But at the end of the exercise the whole list also included thorough, focused, dependable, meticulous, and proficient — to me, efficient is a good way to be in combination with those other things, like I can be all of those things AND it doesn’t slow me down. “Efficient” by itself without any other qualifiers I think would be a different can of worms.

    4. Octopus*

      I think “efficient” is coming off weirdly to you because you’re feeling undervalued, etc. I definitely don’t think efficient by itself has baggage/negative connotations, and I like people thinking (and I take pride in) being efficient. I think of it as people someone who is focused, meets deadlines without issues, ability to quickly turn things around, etc. Sure, it might not be the thing you most value about yourself as an employee, but I don’t think it should inherently sting. I think you might be focusing on a small (not very damaging piece) of a much more damaging picture (only feedback in 2 years, only given simple tasks). I would try not to worry about the efficiency piece any more and focus on those bigger issues, FWIW.

      1. peachy*

        you hit the nail on the head about feeling undervalued, and that this is just a small piece of a much bigger issue. thanks for the perspective!

    5. RagingADHD*

      Someone with low skills and no experience would not be efficient. Efficiency means the best output with no waste. It’s a good thing.

      However, it is a pretty low-effort comment to be the only feedback in 2 years! I’d be at BEC as well.

    6. LadyByTheLake*

      I like the word “efficient” when used properly — I can see that the issue here is that it is being used wrong and it’s annoying. I am really efficient — I like to see how systems are working and improve them — I often do things much faster than other people doing the same thing do them because I am efficient. I’m happy to be called efficient there. The problem for you is that the word is being used almost in a demeaning way — you aren’t improving on systems or processes, you are just doing insultingly easy work quickly. That’s not “efficient” — that’s just being overqualified.

      1. peachy*

        yes, i definitely think there’s something about being described as efficient when the work is so unbelievably simple that feels weirdly insulting. that’s a big part of my overreaction.

    7. Choggy*

      So many managers are just not good at giving meaningful feedback. My former manager sucked at it, as she literally copied/pasted the same information from review to review, even the same information from staff to staff. She had no interest in discussing areas of development because she just had no interest in the area she was managing. She moved to a different area in the same department and I got a new manager, so we’ll see how this goes, he doesn’t seem to be any more involved than she. Just hanging in there for a few more years before retirement.

      1. peachy*

        wow, that sounds so frustrating. copy/pasting the same info from review to review is so insulting to everyone’s work.

        my previous boss was pretty bad about reviews, too. they had goals on my review that referenced work that had nothing to do with me and we’d never discussed before– like “translated content into Russian,” when my job had nothing to do with translation or Russian.

        i hope the new boss is a little more invested!

    8. Not So NewReader*

      To me, the word efficent is a symptom and not the real problem.

      In grammar school the pastor would come to the school and hand out report cards to each one of us. Every. single year the the pastor told me I was consistent. “Very consistent, NSNR, very consistent.”

      If a person cannot tell if something is a compliment or an insult, the default people go to is “insult”. I was insulted.

      But more importantly why was I so hot-heated about such a little thing? And that is where the word “consistent’ becomes a symptom not the core problem. There were problems A, B and C going on and nothing was done. There were additional problems that were AGAINST the law and they had closed their circle to fortify against claims about these illegal things. Then there were other problems X, Y and Z happening. (Insert pages of writing here.)

      It’s a straw on the camel’s back. I’d suggest looking at the load the camel is already carrying.

    9. nep*

      I would like for a boss to find me efficient, and I value this highly in colleagues.
      You say you’re highly skilled and experienced; in my view someone cannot be efficient at something if they are not skilled and experienced.

    10. Weekend Please*

      Efficient is a compliment. I think the problem is that they are complimenting how well you do a task that you are overqualified for with no indication that they are going to give you higher level work. Especially in the context of discussing performance goals, it makes it seem like that is all they see you doing. The word isn’t the problem. The problem is that they are indicating that they want you to keep doing this level work instead of giving you anything remotely challenging.

  35. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

    Does anyone else find that no matter what they do/where they work, they’re never really happy?

    I don’t mean that I’m miserable, more just…it’s work. I don’t love it. I don’t hate it. I do my job, sometimes deal with BS from coworkers, but generally am left alone.

    People keep insisting that there is some magical job world that I’m apparently missing where I would be happy and enjoy waking up to go do a job. I’ve worked in a lot of jobs in a lot of fields trying to find this. I’ve done years of therapy, I take medications…but why would I want to go to work? I like my life outside of work, and simply work to pay the bills.

    Am I missing something?

    1. londonedit*

      I definitely don’t think that magical work world exists! Certainly not for most people. There’s so much talk nowadays about how you have to love your job, how it has to be your ‘passion’, how you mustn’t settle for anything less than a job that makes you bounce out of bed in the morning. And…I think that’s rubbish. Of course I think people deserve to be broadly satisfied with their work, and they deserve to be treated well, but beyond that I don’t think it’s weird not to totally love your job. I’m lucky – I work for a decent company, I enjoy most of my job, my colleagues are friendly and nice to work with, I feel appreciated. But I’d still pack it all in tomorrow if I won the lottery, and I really believe I’d be happier if I didn’t have to work! I’m definitely a work-to-live person – if my job is vaguely enjoyable and it pays the bills and allows me the time and money to do the things I want to do in the rest of my life, great.

      1. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

        Thank you. I was feeling very frustrated when I wrote my post this morning, and this helps, a lot.

    2. Jaded Millenial*

      Nope. Not missing something. These “people” you refer to either have different ideas on happiness, are deluding themselves, or haven’t had the chance to find happiness outside of their day job for one reason or another.

      If I could still get my paycheck without going into the office, I would not experience a reduction in my happiness. Probably quite the opposite.

      1. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

        I’m glad I am not the only jaded millenial haha.

        Thank you. It’s nice to know I’m not crazy or missing something.

        1. NACSACJACK*

          Or Gen-Xer. Yeah, where is this dream job? (Of course it would help to apply elsewhere and not be working in a dying programming language.

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      If you’re missing something, then so am I. And I like my job! But when you get right down to it, I do work (which my company finds valuable), and my company gives me money (which I find valuable). If we ever find ourselves in disagreement about the relative values of my work/their money, it’s time to either renegotiate or part ways. And I’m totally OK with this! I mean, I like what I do, and I’m good at what I do, but not so much that I’m going to offer to start volunteering to do my job for my employer (even if it was legal to do so). I like getting paid a wage that lets me afford to do non-work things that do make me happy.

      (And like Jaded Millenial, I also would not experience a reduction in happiness if I could continue to be paid my current salary without having to work.)

      1. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

        I’m glad to hear there are many others like me. I was starting to feel like I must be missing something, and it’s so nice to hear that others would gladly walk away from their job if they won the lotto :)

    4. Fiona*

      Are you American? I am and I feel like there’s such an intense emphasis in American culture re: finding your purpose and fulfillment through work. If you can, that’s great, but I think it’s good to extricate ourselves from that pressure.

      1. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

        Ha, good guess, and you’re correct.

        It really is though. It sometimes feels like the *only* thing that matters is finding your “dream job”. My dream job involves a hammock, a library of books in my house, and no schedule haha.

        I’ve gotta get better at just telling people about my pet rock collection next time they want to talk about work haha.

    5. CatCat*

      This is where I am. I have a very good job for where I am at my stage in my career. But, at the end of the day, I’d rather not be working than working. My goal is to start working less than full time in the next few years.

      1. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

        I’d love to be in that position someday, that would be amazing!! I hope you get there soon.

    6. Anonymous Educator*

      I agree with you that you don’t need to be happy, and as long as you aren’t deeply unhappy, work is just a way to make money. But I’ve been happy at work. I still wanted to get paid. And there were still always moments when I was asked to do something I wasn’t jazzed about. But there have been workplaces where I was excited to go to work and genuinely enjoyed about 70-90% of the work I did.

    7. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I think more people feel the same way as you than admit it. I’m currently struggling a bit with this as well. I moved to a more senior level job, the kind where you are supposed to have a lot of enthusiasm and passion for the job. I love the money I get from working, not working itself. I’m well paid, so I am as enthusiastic as needed to be effective in my job, but as you asked me if I loved my job, no, I don’t. My job doesn’t make the top ten list of things I love, probably not even the top 20. But, in exchange for working, I get paid, which allows me to do things I do love. So in my mind it’s an even exchange. I know that this is a pretty privilege position to be in, so please don’t think I’m unaware of it. I guess in the end I don’t care if I love my job; it’s a necessary evil.

      1. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

        “I’m well paid, so I am as enthusiastic as needed to be effective in my job”

        I like this in particular…it’s a good reminder to get your fair worth from the place you work. Thank you!

    8. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I think the “Find a job that’s amazing and wonderful and defines you and becomes the reason you get up in the morning” mentality springs from the fact that salaries are so much lower than they should be. People aren’t getting paid enough for the work they’re doing and they’re trying to compensate for that by coming up with all these other non-material benefits you could theoretically receive from a job. And on one level, it’s a little bit true. Nobody in my field applies for public library jobs for the money, there are emotional and psychological reasons we enter this field. But even still, it’s not a magical unicorn job where I’m 1000% happy all the time and I bounce out of bed in the morning breathless with the anticipation of a wonderful day at work.

      I say, look for a job where you’re adequately compensated that doesn’t make you miserable. If you feel a sense of purpose related to that job, great. But if not, a job isn’t the only way to have a sense of purpose and you’re still probably fine.

      1. FutureLibrarianNoMore*

        Yeah, you’re absolutely right. I need to focus my purpose on places I want it to be.

        Thank you!

    9. Super Duper Anon*

      I think of it like a bell curve. There is a small percent of people on the left side of the curve that are truly miserable at work, like mental or physical health suffering, caused by any number of factors like a toxic job, abusive people, unsafe conditions, etc. I have been in one such job and left it. There is also a small percent of people on the right side of the curve who truly love either just working in general, or have found a job that is such a passion to them that they wake up happy and excited every day to go to work. I have never experienced this.

      The vast majority of us are in the middle of the curve, work is what we do to get money to meet both our basic needs and our wants. It is simply a way to live in the world, not our driving force. We get more happiness from the things we do outside of work than in it. If we were given enough money to not work for the rest of our lives, we would quit immediately.

      1. Kimmy Schmidt*

        This is how I think of it too! And there are different ways and places to be in the middle of that bell curve, where some individuals might be smack dab in the middle of indifference on every part of their job, while others like some aspects and hate others. If you don’t like your colleagues you like your boss and if you don’t like your boss you like the flexibility and if you don’t like the flexibility you like the prestige and if you don’t like the prestige you like the money etc etc.

        I’m in a “passion field”, but my first boss told me she’d leave this job if she won the lottery, which I think helped calibrate my thinking that no job is perfect and it’s ok to work for money.

      3. allathian*

        That’s a great way of looking at it. I’m definitely somewhere in the middle. Mondays don’t fill me with dread and I enjoy my job somewhat, but if I could keep my current lifestyle without working and without being financially dependent on anyone else, I’d quit immediately.

    10. KatieHR*

      You are not missing anything. I have a friend like this who thinks she is living in this perfect job and the company thinks she is so amazing and gives her these “awards.” Yet, they surprised her and went through a big restructure and she is still trying to figure out what happened. She did not get fired but a lot of the team she worked on got moved around. I work to live, do my job, but always remember that my company wouldn’t blink an eye to get rid of me if it suited them.

    11. LadyByTheLake*

      I am certain that Alison has a couple posts on this very issue, that there’s this false narrative (esp in the US) that somehow jobs are supposed to be magical and fun and the fact is that most of them are a way to pay the bills and that trying to impose this unrealistic expectation is a quick way to disappointment.

      1. Mockingjay*

        Alison has been posting about this issue for over a decade. A quick search in the archives gave me all of these hits:

        “do what you love: is not great advice
        https://www.askamanager.org/2012/09/do-what-you-love-is-not-great-advice.html

        what’s wrong with “do what you love”
        https://www.askamanager.org/2014/02/whats-wrong-with-do-what-you-love-how-employers-can-get-your-salary-history-and-more.html
        Second at the link

        why you shouldn’t follow your passion
        https://www.askamanager.org/2013/04/why-you-shouldnt-follow-your-passion.html

        I feel “meh” about working — am I supposed to be more passionate?
        https://www.askamanager.org/2015/08/i-feel-meh-about-working-am-i-supposed-to-be-more-passionate.html

        think you’re applying for your “dream job”? think again!
        https://www.askamanager.org/2013/01/stop-thinking-youre-applying-for-your-dream-job.html

        am I going to regret not pursuing a more high-powered career?
        https://www.askamanager.org/2020/11/am-i-going-to-regret-not-pursuing-a-more-high-powered-career.html

    12. RagingADHD*

      Nope, I think you have a perfectly fine attitude to work. Your work is a job, not an identity. That’s normal: “Work to live, don’t live to work” used to be a very common saying.

      If you’re never happy about anything in life, that’s a problem. But if work is just okay and your happiness is elsewhere, that’s not a problem.

      TBH, I think it’s very freeing to see your happiness as separate from your job. It gives you a great deal of immunity from office-related BS, helps you clearly see the value of what you do, and puts you in a strong position to let your work stand on its merits and resist manipulation or compromising your principles.

      It makes you more businesslike and less likely to make emotional decisions.

      1. allathian*

        Your last sentence is spot on. Some employers are very keen on hiring people whose personal values match the company’s values. That’s as good as it goes and the values should certainly not be diametically opposite, but an employee who identifies too closely with the company is more likely to feel that a failure at work is a personal failure, and is also more likely to react adversely to stress and get burned out. Whereas if the job is just a job rather than a part of your identity, it’s much easier to leave work issues at work. There’s some research showing that companies where matching personal and company values are crucial are less successful and they suffer from more interpersonal conflicts.

    13. lemon*

      I think this whole “love what you do” myth is really pernicious. It makes you feel like you’re failing if you don’t feel passionate about your job. And it also gets people to accept low pay or terrible working conditions, because putting up with that is supposed to be worth it to pursue your passion (think: anything in the arts, academia).

      Sarah Jaffe takes a look at this in her new book Work Won’t Love You Back— I haven’t read it yet, but there’s a good review in The New Republic. Might be worth a Google.

      Lately, I’ve just been trying to focus on work that I find enjoyable, rather than loveable. Like, I’m not one of these “technology will save the world!” people who want to solve every single social issue with code– it’s not my passion. But, I enjoy sitting down for a few hours and writing some code while listening to a podcast– it’s fun and I get to see immediate results when I solve a problem. And then I’m able to clock out at 5:30 and go for a walk or watch a good tv show or read a good book. I think it’s a much more realistic view of what work is supposed to do for you on a personal level.

    14. AnotherLibrarian*

      No. I think that’s actually a super destructive myth and it is super prevalent in the library work, especially. I’m guessing from your user name you have some experience in that world. I enjoy what I do. It’s still work. There are still mornings when I crawl out of bed grouchy and annoyed. There are still days I spend doing things I don’t enjoy. That’s why they have to pay me to be here. You have to remember that as much as you may find meaning in your job, allowing it to define you and make you “happy” is going to be a really unhealthy thing in the long term. Now, if you’re miserable every day then maybe that’s something to think about more deeply, but a job is a job. That’s all it is.

    15. Collette*

      The only times I have ever found work that made me feel deeply happy and fulfilled have been when I was doing purely creative work and when I was running my own business. It turns out that I need three things to feel that way:
      1. No ho0ps to jump through, I can just get on with the work
      2. Work that I can actually see making a difference for other people
      3. Work that is never the same twice

      If I’m doing something pointless or, even worse, something detrimental to other people, I lose all enthusiasm quickly. Same for having to follow a mindless routine. Then work becomes a chore and I start hating it all over again.

    16. Not So NewReader*

      Oh we are supposed to be HAPPY at work?

      It cracks me up when ads say “looking for passionate employee”, yes because there are so many of us having torrid affairs with our jobs. [snort]

      If you have work that you can do and do well; if you have a boss who seems to be human; if you have a couple of cohorts you like then you are doing very well.

    17. Hillary*

      I’ve worked with a lot of people who want to put in their 40 hours, get their paycheck, and spend their free time (with family, fishing, playing badminton, whatever). I even know some who’ve worked the same manufacturing position for 10+ years. What matters is if you’re happy with your life. Work is only one part of it.

    18. Vicky Austin*

      I concur with everyone else. In my entire 43 years, I have only met two or three people who LOVE what they do for work.

    19. ronda*

      you are not missing something.
      I think many employers try to keep this myth going with their wanting you to be committed to the company mission and asking in interview why you want the job (so you will pay me?) :)

      you might be ready for the FIRE (financial independence /retire early) blog crowd.

      I did find in reading the FIRE blogs …. lots of people need work for the structure it gives life and to feel like they have a purpose. But those of us who really try can be satisfied without the work structure.

  36. Humble Schoolmarm*

    A colleague has been having a rough go with mental health this week (shared this pretty openly in an after work chat). I’m one of our workplace union reps, so I know of some resources and support that can be accessed through the union. I have no idea whether colleague already knows about or uses these resources (they’re publicized by the union, but a lot of folks don’t have the bandwidth to read union emails and info). Would it be a good idea or overstepping to send a quick text or email with links to these resources to my colleague?

    1. Me*

      I think it’s fine. Just say pretty much what you said here. That after your last talk you just wanted to make sure they had x resources available through the union.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Added step, make it your habit to do this again in a similar situation. That way you can say, “this is what I do – I make sure this info is available for everyone, it may or may not be of use for you.”

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      I don’t think it’s overstepping. I’ve done something similar with colleagues during WFH, & nobody’s ever been irritated by it. I always frame it as something they might find useful (And let them know if I’ve used the resource.)

  37. saffie_girl*

    Here’s a funny happening for the week:

    My company had a “Managing Remote Staff” training session lead by HR this week. Yes, a bit late, but I guess better than never.

    In it we were told that staff should not be working remotely in our PJs.

    Luckily, all of our meetings are audio only (as the organizations systems cannot handle video) so they could not see me roll my eyes…

    1. Zephy*

      How and why would the managers even know what staff are wearing while WFH? What difference does it make, if you’re not using video? I’m so glad my company hasn’t mandated video calls while WFH, not least because there is literally no part of my entire job that requires the client to be able to visually perceive me. But also because the only headset microphone I have is a big gaming headset and I look ridiculous wearing it – it wouldn’t matter what I have on my body, this big red glowing apparatus on my head is unprofessional enough.

    3. Girasol*

      I’m imagining the advice that should logically follow: “So managers, be sure to ask your staff to describe what they are wearing right now!”

  38. MidwesternEditor*

    I’m recently starting to do some freelance writing/editing after leaving my full-time editorial job this spring. I’m looking for your favorite resources for a) finding interesting work and b) setting up the business side of things (taxes, etc.). I’ve done freelance work occasionally over the years, but I’m always looking to improve the efficiency of my business and the scope of how fulfilling it can be. Thanks in advance!

    1. RagingADHD*

      Call a local CPA about business setup/ tax stuff and don’t rely on general internet advice. It’s extremely dependent on your jurisdiction what is required or advisable.

      In my city, I don’t need a business license or any kind of entity because I have no in-person customers and no physical product. That would be different in the municipality next door, or outside the city limit.

      In some areas, setting up an LLC is cheap and a smart move for any solopreneur. In my state it costs several thousand dollars and requires extensive annual paperwork to remain in good standing.

      Good advice is hyperlocal on this stuff.

      I keep a separate checking account for all my freelance income, and use a dedicated credit card for business expenses so it’s easy to pull the gross numbers in 1 fell swoop. They aren’t officially designated as “business” accounts by the bank, that’s just how I use them.

  39. Toxic Waste*

    Any advice for dealing with a dramatic/attention seeking coworker? “Cersei” will put herself down one second, then attack you or argue with you the next. It’s a very weird and confusing experience. I don’t know if she’s looking for compliments/attention by calling herself “dumb” and “stupid”. Then when we have conversations, she’ll take the opposite side and argue it, even if you agree with her in the first place! I try not to engage with her or mainly just listen, but then she accuses me of not liking her or liking “Fergus” or “John” better than her!

    Cersei is in her 60s. I’m not sure if this is just her personality or whether she has stuff going on in her life, but it’s exhausting. I’m already stressed about work and to add all of this emotional drama into the mix isn’t helping.

    Has anyone else experienced this? What did you do?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Don’t feed the drama llama. If you stop giving her what she wants, she might move on to the next person.

      Cersei: “Ugh! I’m such an idiot!”
      You: …
      Cersei: “Also, I can’t believe you made such a stupid mistake!”
      You: “Huh.”

      (Have you ever seen the Pete Davidson’s Chad character on Saturday Night Live? Try to channel Chad.)

      1. RagingADHD*

        I don’t even like the Chad sketches, but this is a perfect example.

        Chad is the quintessential gray rock.

    2. whistle*

      Ignore, ignore, ignore. Be as boring as possible with her. There is no way for you to win this game.

    3. CatCat*

      Ugh, I had an ex-boss that would do this kind of thing. We’ll call her Jane. I switched from her team to a different team. After that, she would make comments in the hallway to me about leaving the team because I didn’t like her or them. At one point, I’d had it and said in a voice loud enough for others in the vicinity to hear, “You know Jane, it makes me really uncomfortable when you say things like that.” Those kind of comments immediately died off.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I have a friend who makes me chuckle. If she catches anyone putting themselves down she’d say, “Oh, compliment hunting today?”

      As far as telling you that you don’t like her as much as others or any other time she informs you of what you think- you can just say, “Since there is no way for you to read my mind, then there is no way to know for sure what it is I think. So if you tell me what I think, I will not be responding to you.”
      Later you can follow up with, “You aren’t telling me what I think again, are you?”

      [What I really would like to say, “If you know what I think already then why ask?”]

      For the conversation flips just land the plane. “When you started this conversation you said it would rain today. I was agreeing with you that it would indeed rain today. Now you are saying it will NOT rain today. Looks like you are disagreeing with your own self and there’s really not a lot I can contribute there.”

  40. Not So Super-visor*

    a question that I’m dying to have answered by all of the HR folks that may read:
    how much info should HR be sharing with a manager about an FMLA request?

    To be clear: I’m not asking to know details about an employee’s health condition. I just want to know when an employee has filed for FMLA, the type, and what (# of occurances, end date, etc) has been approved.
    I have twice now been surprised by an employee calling in to use intermittent FMLA that I didn’t know that they’d filed for or been approved for. I was lambasted by HR for allowing an employee to go over the # of approved occurances (tripled) in a month even though they never told me what he was appoved for, and my lastest is finding out that an employee on continous leave is a week past what she was approved for and our HR asking me why I didn’t follow up on her return date (you never told me!!). Is this normal? Again, I don’t need to know medical details, but this seems like my HR is not communicating with me and then getting upset with me for not managing an employee’s absences.

    1. NotQuiteAnonForThis*

      Not in HR, but it absolutely seems as though you should be informed that it has been approved, when it starts, end date, continuous vs. intermittent, number of occurrences, etc.

      Especially if HR is going to come after you when an employee “goes over”.

    2. HRMgr*

      HR Manager here, and your HR department is falling short here. There are guidelines around sharing the employee’s medical information, but details about approval and frequency should absolutely be communicated with a manager!

    3. Natalie*

      Uh, you kind of have to be informed of someone’s FMLA status so you don’t, say, accidentally retaliate or interfere with their leave usage.

      Is it possible your company is using a 3rd party administrator (ours uses Unum) and they think you’re getting notified through them?

  41. Me*

    I work for county government emergency management and am thus involved in Covid land. I’ve dealt with the public as a government employee for close to 20 years so I’m used to getting unhappy people. But recently the people I’m dealing with are making me wish I could drink on the job. I try to remember people are just scared and anxious but the entitlement and demands for special treatment and appointments that we just don’t have are starting to wear on me.

    Then looking down the line and realizing I have to deal with this for at least 6 months.

    Just be nice to government employees. They are doing the best they can with what they have.

    1. Lizzie*

      Hi Me, just to say I did laugh at your comment that you sometimes wished you could drink on the job. Personally (when in reception) I would like a cone of silence that I could drop over people when they have confirmed their apt time or whatever, and then feel the need to talk to me at length while I answer the phones, deal with other people, try to get work done etc.

  42. Book Badger, Attorney-at-Claw*

    It’s been a while since I posted here. Updates!

    1) I got my COL raise this month! Whoohoo, a whole $1,500 a year!

    2) My fiancé is still struggling to find work in his field and we’re getting kind of desperate.

    3) I keep wistfully looking at job ads in another state I’m barred in because that state has available jobs both in my field and his. I have to remind myself that there’s a reason I’m not practicing there, and it’s because I applied for jobs and couldn’t find any!

    4) Is anyone else only just now getting hit with isolation burnout? I was fine for months, but we’re a month shy of a whole year on lockdown and I’m starting to lose focus in my work, can’t stay on task, and simultaneously bored and crunched.

    1. Box of Kittens*

      4) I got kind of depressed late last summer/fall. I think it was because it finally hit me that COVID wasn’t going away anytime soon, plus I always have a delayed reaction to stress anyway. You are def not the only one with late covid burnout! I wish I had better advice but I can commiserate. Having a counselor or therapist would be nice too, so maybe if that’s an avenue open to you that could be a good idea.

    2. Laura H.*

      Firstly, the username makes me smile.

      Secondly, I feel that isolation burnout/ I’m DONE with it (I’ll keep abiding by it though, I’m not a jerk). I don’t work regularly but you’re not alone in that burnt out feeling. I’ve avoided non-essential social Zoom meetings for the past month, mostly cause I don’t have that mental bandwidth (as well as because of a seasonal gig & mild COVID infection and recovery).

      Popping outside in the sun helps, having a routine helps, tea helps- these things don’t prevent isolation burnout or fatigue but IME, they’ve made it more bearable. All the air hugs and best of luck.

    3. Filosofickle*

      I read “barred in” to mean “barred from” (especially since you were looking wistfully) and thought wait, what? How? Why? Then I saw Laura point out your user name and it made more sense. :)

    4. Sally*

      4) Burnout has hit everyone I’ve talked to in the last 2 weeks.

      One thing to consider if you live in the US and the last 4 years have been particularly difficult for you: trauma responses don’t always happen immediately after the trauma occurs. Often, your body and psyche will wait until you feel “safe,” and then unleash the awful. That may be part of it.

    5. Tinker*

      “simultaneously bored and crunched” <- that is exactly my feeling.

      A bit before the end of the year, the project I was on where I was somewhat like "this project is going in a direction that works for me, so I won't leave yet" was significantly impacted by a reorg — reorg roulette being one of the items on the list of things I am getting salty about — in a way that pretty much does ultimately add another action item to my to-do list.

      On top of that, it's dark and often cold, and my original plans to be particularly cautious through the holiday season has now hit up against that our numbers are down but there's this talk of new variants and also an endpoint vaccine-wise. So now I'm thinking I ought to hold out even into the summer, but the impact on how much physical activity and outside stimulation I get has been rough.

      So I'm bored, intensely so in the work part of my life (on a personal level, I can at least do things that involve movement and activity and some amount of concrete progress, but it's things like working through my crafting project backlog), and then at the same time I feel as if I'm "terribly behind" in such a way that what I am behind on and hence how to be not behind is unactionably vague.

      I do not like. I am tired of it. Somewhat, I want to just give up and do nothing but speak vague platitudes in meetings until June or whenever the vaccination line gets to fully remote workers, but I also intensely don't want to be in exactly the same place in six months.

    6. Lizzo*

      #4 – Yep! All of the yucky psychological effects of lockdown can only be contained/compartmentalized for so long. The arrival of winter + fewer hours of daylight + very little sun here for the first two weeks of the year = THINGS FEEL HOPELESS.

      Try giving yourself permission to:
      1) Just focus on getting one thing done per day. It can be a small thing. But try and build some momentum by taking care of one thing at a time.
      2) Give yourself permission to just rest when you’re not working. Try and make your life as easy as possible outside of work.
      3) Make the best possible choices re: your health, which includes prioritizing nourishing food, good quality sleep, and some level of movement that feels appropriate for what your body can handle (yoga, walking, gentle stretching, running, etc.).

      Just as an example: I had carrot sticks + toast + an apple for dinner tonight. Lunch tomorrow is probably going to be a fruit smoothie, some cheese and crackers, and a sliced avocado. If I’m taking the time to cook anything, I’m doing it in the oven/crockpot, and I’m making enough servings for six meals so that I don’t have to make any significant effort for the next three days. I’m also taking lots of naps and spending lots of time on the couch, under a blanket, with my extra snuggly dog.

      It is totally against my nature to be so still…and if I’m being honest, I feel kind of lazy…but I figure if I can ride out the next 6-8 weeks, we’ll be on the verge of spring, and that’s going to make things so much better, and I trust that my brain and body will perk up again!

      Hang in there! xo

  43. Advice is Nice!*

    I was out of work for 3 months, I got fired from a toxic job and I was super happy about it honestly.
    Just this past week, I started a 3 month contract with one company doing a new job that is a new skill I’ve been really wanting to get more experience in. In the meantime, another company I interviewed with got back to me with a job offer. That position is very similar to what I used to do at toxic job, also it’s a nonprofit like toxic job was. The biggest win in my opinion is it’s salaried with benefits, something I don’t have right now.
    I know I sound like I’m complaining about good things. I’m young and pretty new to the workforce so I’m genuinely not sure what to do here. I like this contract work a lot, there’s room to extend and potentially become full time but it could take a while. On the other hand, there’s stability in the other offer. I’m worried I will feel similar to when I was at toxic job, but also what if it takes a while to find another job if this contract ends at 3 months?

    1. JohannaCabal*

      With this climate right now, I’d bank on stability from a full-time position over the contract job.

      How would this contract job feel about you leaving? Make sure you leave on good terms (to be honest, if one of our contractors left for a full-time job, I would totally understand.

      Also, how did you explain the firing interviews and on applications? I had a firing in the past (same situation, three month stint at a toxic place and I was in the wrong role) and had some trouble getting past it.

      1. Advice is Nice!*

        I was as honest as I could be without flat out saying that place was toxic. In all honesty, some people asked asked and some didn’t. I found it best to be along the lines of ‘the work I was doing was not at a level that management/my supervisor/whoever thought it should be at. I’ve learned from that and I always deliver my work/tasks/whatever to the best of my ability. I’m going to continue to do the same but I hope that at this job there’s more room for collaboration or feedback so I know if I’m on the right track or way off base on the work I’m producing.’
        You can also easily say that at the time you thought the role was a good spot for you but after your time there, you realized you were better suited elsewhere.

    2. Hmmm*

      what specifically about your previous job that made it toxic? was it the manager’s communication/management style? the people/work culture? or was it the job responsibilities inherent in the role that made you miserable? Just because you happened to have a bad experience with one nonprofit doesn’t mean that toxicity is pervasive throughout ALL nonprofits. Think really hard about what factors made your last job toxic and see if you can spot any of those potential issues with this new job offer.

      How different is your contract job from this FT job? Is there room for you to take on similar duties that you do at the contract while you’re working at this new FT job?

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Okay, I’m not super clear on what a contract means versus being a contractor, so this may not work: Could you do both…?

      Obviously, this would be an enormous amount of work for three months, but it might doable and worthwhile, if you wanted to try to swing it.

      I had a full-time job and taught community college on the side for a while, which isn’t quite the same

  44. Outlet Mall*

    Looking for advice about worker’s compensation. I was diagnosed with thoracic outlet syndrome recently. I submitted worker’s comp claim but was denied. Anyone have similar experience with worker’s comp? Or thoracic outlet, any advice there also appreciated. I am trying not to let it affect work performance but hard as I can barely function on the computer which I use all day.

    2. Might Be Spam*

      I had surgery for thoracic outlet syndrome. I wish I had the surgery years earlier. It was so bad, that my arm was paralyzed when I was in certain positions and unfortunately paralyzed didn’t mean no pain. When I woke up after surgery I wasn’t supposed to move my arm, but I was able to move my hand, so I knew the surgery worked.

      Definitely do the physical therapy, but don’t push through pain. Stop when you feel the stretch or you will make things worse. I now have full mobility. There must have been a lot of referred pain pre-surgery, because now a lot of other things that used to hurt, feel perfectly fine now.
      Good luck with your treatment.

      1. Outlet Mall*

        Appreciate your response, thanks! Getting evaluated by a thoracic specialist in a few weeks, neurologist did diagnosis but beyond that is not very helpful.

  45. Just a PM*

    The question the other day about workplace gossip made me remember a sticky situation I got dragged into. I’m wondering what others would do. Three bosses ago, my boss was someone who LOVED gossip, except she used it as ammunition. If she had a problem with you or you told her something in confidence that she could leverage for capital, she would tell everyone but you to undermine your status and reputation in the company.

    So here’s the “what would you do.” This boss and I are in 1:1 about something project-related. Somehow she brings up that one of my coworkers has 3 kids. Which might’ve been OK, except this coworker has only ever mentioned two children, and then she started speculating on why he never talks about that third child. I felt icky (none of my business!), shut that conversation down, and dragged her back on topic. I really struggled with whether I should have told my coworker that she’s spilling private details about his personal life. Ultimately I didn’t say anything but should I have?

    1. Dave*

      Unless you knew this co-worker really well and knew why she didn’t talk about kid 3 or knew kid 3 didn’t exist, my guess it is would have just caused me problems. One of my favorite ways to get the office gossip to leave me alone is to change the topic and not share what was said.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Nope. Unless the rumor is obviously damaging and could have consequences, don’t carry it back. That just stirs the pot and feeds the drama monster, which gossips love.

    4. Annie Moose*

      Honestly I think you handled it all right! If you weren’t close enough to the coworker to already know about this third kid–if this third kid exists and isn’t some invention or confusion of the boss!–then you’re probably not close enough to have that, like, “dude, the boss is gossiping weird stuff about you” conversation.

      Part of the risk, I think, is that if you aren’t already quite close to the target, bringing it up to them could make it seem like you want more details–like you’re only sharing it with him because you want him to explain himself. And that’s definitely something you want to avoid!

      I think the exception would be if you think the coworker is actively being harmed by the gossip–like if the boss was like “oh I’m not giving X this assignment because of [insert gossip here]”, then it’d be more reasonable to give them a heads up–but otherwise, I would just try to ignore the boss as much as possible. Getting involved in a gossip’s business rarely ends well.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      From my own experience the person probably lost a child and forgets to say 3 not 2. I’d just pretend to skate by it, not notice, whatever.

      I had an employee whose wages were garnished. For whatever reason my boss took it upon herself to set my employee straight. “You need to pay that off!” I told my boss we needed to mind our own business. It could be that the employee feels the garnishing was unjust for [reasons] and we need to just let her handle it as she sees fit.

      In another example boss got upset because a cohort inherited some money. I knew the amount so I started laughing. It’s not the kind of money you quit a job for. But boss went on and on and I really could not contain my laughter, so that kind of killed the conversation.

      Don’t bother telling your cohort(s) about her spilling the beans. They already figured it out because they see what she thinks of to say about you behind your back.

  46. NewManager999NotInvited*

    I was wondering if anyone had a script or advice on what to say to one’s boss when they aren’t including you in meetings that you probably should be at? And this is the second time you’ve mentioned this to them?

    I’m in a newly created role and I’m responsible for the day to day management of making chocolate teapots. My boss created this role so they can focus on the bigger picture of making chocolate teapots. I also knew going in that it might be a challenge as my boss isn’t the best about keeping everyone informed. Now that I’m in the role, and with no surprise to me, I’m finding out secondhand about all these pivotal discussions that took place without my involvement. These discussions/meetings have been on things that impact my ability to perform my job well.

    I already mentioned this once to my boss that if they know of any meetings that I should be included on to include me as well, but they haven’t really been doing this. I also am reaching out to people that have been having these meetings to include me in the future, but it’s a bit hard to predict meetings. I feel like if my boss could tell people to invite me too, I wouldn’t still be having this problem.

    1. Volunteer Enforcer*

      Perhaps if you try pointing out to your boss the concrete impact this has on your role? Apologies if this is obvious.

      1. NewManager999NotInvited*

        No apologies needed. I’m thinking that’s what I need to do, too. I just don’t know how to do it gracefully without turning all rage hulk smash.

        1. TechWorker*

          Treat it as ‘boss is so used to being the only person from her in these meetings that she forgets they might be useful to other people’ rather than bad intent. (If you can!)

          Whenever you notice it ‘Hi boss, I realised I didn’t have context on x,y,z because I missed the meeting with Bob, can you invite me to the next one?’

          Depending on your org/project setup and who is setting up the meetings it might also be appropriate to ask the other team to include you (Eg ‘I’m also working on llama grooming now, can you add me in?). I totally admit as a manager I get loads of meeting invites and occasionally get to a meeting only to realise one of my team isn’t there and I should have forwarded it).

    2. SomebodyElse*

      I’ve been in both your shoes and your manager’s shoes. It sucks either way.

      You are doing the right thing by going to people directly and that is probably the most effective. It will take time for your manager to figure out when and where to include you, and in fairness it’s not always easy to tell ahead of time.

      Do you have 1:1’s with your boss weekly? If not, ask for them. There is a lot of job sharing in the new role and if you aren’t having frequent meetings it’s going to be hard. Then during the meetings ask what’s coming up the next week that you should know about. Specifically ask at that time if there are any meetings you should be planning for or attending.

    3. Distractinator*

      You mentioned? that if they knew of any? Hypothetically? No. Tell them. I know they’re your boss so you have to be polite, but this is a case that you’re just explaining the facts. “The meeting last week where you and Fergus discussed X and Y – that’s information that I need because [reason]. I know it may not seem critical at the time, but if I don’t get the information until a couple of weeks later, that can cause [problem]. It seems to me that the easiest thing is to invite me, and make sure Fergus Jane and Wakeen all know to invite me. If I’m wrong and there’s a reason I shouldn’t be there, what’s the best way to make sure I get the key pieces of information as reliably as possible?” If you have a couple of specific examples, both of the information, the problems, and the meetings you’re referring to, that will help.
      One way I heard this happening when we added someone to my team was that they would specifically ask – “Fergus, what do you know about schedule on X? If you and Jane are planning to talk about that this week, please include me on the meeting” and just kept asking to be included until everyone would naturally think of them. It also helped that they treated it as “sitting in” at first, rather than digging into the discussion; I know that’s not the right long-term strategy, but in the short term (first couple of meetings) make sure they don’t regret inviting you!

    4. NewManager999NotInvited*

      Thank you everyone for the advice and scripts. This helps a lot and I feel more confident about what to say to my boss in our next 1:1. It might take some time for them to finally get it, but I have to keep trying.

    5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Are you sure your boss is the one who created the role or is it possible that the work has been split out without your boss really being part of the decision making process?

  47. SnowWhiteClaw*

    I feel like I am classified incorrectly under the new minimum wage laws. My HR person says I am not overtime eligible. I make about 37,000 gross per year.

    I live in Colorado and work as a professional research assistant at a state university.

    Who do I talk to about this? Should I even try to speak to anyone? Should I just not ever work overtime under any circumstance to circumvent it?

      1. SnowWhiteClaw*

        My role was exempt in 2020. According to Alisons previous post: “To be exempt, you must earn a salary of at least $35,568 and perform relatively high-level work as your primary duties.”

        I don’t think I should be exempt this year due to the minimum wage law changes. Here’s the ones for CO:

        “Ne new Colorado state law (effective March 16, 2020), sets the minimum salary for these exemptions at $684/week as of July 1, 2020 (note, under federal law, the minimum salary for these exemptions is $684/week as of 1/1/2020).

        This minimum salary will increase as follows:

        July 1, 2020 – $684/week or $35,568/year
        January 1, 2021 – $778.85/week or $40,500/year”

        Since I make less than 40,500 per year I should be non-exempt and eligible for overtime in 2021, right?

        1. Allypopx*

          That’s my read on it yeah. I’d push back or as Octopus suggested, check with your labor board.

          If you push back I’d probably say something like “I know I was exempt last year, but since Colorado updated their minimum exemption salary in March I don’t think my role still qualifies. Can you provide some clarification?” (provide a .gov or otherwise state sponsored link if you can).

        2. HR from CT*

          [I think my comment with the link got lost somewhere]. Exemption isn’t based solely on salary. There is a “rules test” to bump up against your daily work, link in next comment–I hope that works for you.

          3. SnowWhiteClaw*

            Right, I get that exemption isn’t solely based on salary.

            But to qualify as exempt, you have to have a specific set of duties AND make above a certain salary. Is my understanding of this correct? All the rules on that sheet you linked state “The employee must be compensated on a salary or fee basis (as defined in the regulations) at a rate not less than $684* per week;” to qualify as exempt?

            1. ThatGirl*

              What it means is that if you qualify as exempt, they have to pay you that much. You’re not non exempt because you’re underpaid, you’re non exempt and being illegally underpaid.

    3. PollyQ*

      I found a source that says the new minimum salary for an employee to be exempt in Colorado as of 1/1/2021 is $40,500, so regardless of your job duties, it looks like you’re non-exempt. (link to follow)

      2. ThatGirl*

        No, you’re not classified based on how you’re paid; you’re paid based on how you’re classified. The whole point was to raise the pay of exempt workers.

  48. Volunteer Enforcer*

    Does my preferred career path sound reasonable? I’m an admin who wants to become a subject matter specialist / expert, not parlay it into a different kind of role (e.g. analyst) or become a people manager, but still get pay rises.

    1. Cedrus Libani*

      You want to become a specialist type of admin, right? That’s a thing – I’m a scientist, I’ve seen purchasing and grant specialists, and I know the clinical trials side has its own set of highly specialized admin roles. These people aren’t analysts or people managers, they can/do move up in responsibility as they progress in their careers, and high-level admins can be in a position to make or break a project (so I doubt a serious company would cheap out on them).

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I think that really depends on what specific subject matter you’re referring to. Some industries have paths for experts to continue getting raises (at least up to a certain point) without taking on any management responsibilities, others don’t. Maybe you should reach out to others in your targeted field to see what they think?

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      It’s not just your preferred career path that sounds reasonable. It’s anyone’s who wants to do things that they enjoy or semi-enjoy and are fairly good at, but doesn’t want to change roles or become a manager but still wants a raise.

  49. Anon Newbie*

    I’m in my first full-time role after college working on a year-long contract. Recently, my manager Bob brought up that a full-time position will be opening up on our team this quarter and he thinks I would be a good fit for the role and should consider applying. He’s been an excellent manager and I would still be reporting to him in this new role, which he will also be the hiring manager for. Does anyone have advice about how to get through a hiring process when you’re working for the same person who will also be interviewing/evaluating you for a different role? I also was not able to negotiate my current salary due to the nature of my current role, but is it acceptable to negotiate now for the new role with my current boss? Is there any way to make that less awkward than I feel like it will be?

    1. Me*

      The biggest mistake internal candidates make is acting like the person interviewing them knows their work. Yes they technically do, but you need to answer questions about your work as if you’ve never met him before in your life.

      And yeah it’s awkward but remember that he’s rooting for you to do well.

      1. Chaordic One*

        This is true. Although it may seem obvious for you to assume that the interviewer knows your work, you should still go through the formality of answering the questions as if you’ve never met him before in your life. And there is the possibility that there may be other people involved in the interview as well, and if so, you’ll want to answer that way for the sake of the other people.

    2. Volunteer Enforcer*

      Of course it’s reasonable and possible to negotiate your salary, as you are bringing more work experience and an hours increase always translates to a pay rise. I’d approach the interview like a slightly more formal meeting with your boss, but not a great deal different from how a meeting usually feels with them. Prepare as though it is an external interview though.

  50. gaslit to heck and back*

    I just quit my job at a very horrible, abusive workplace where I was the scapegoat for literally everything that went wrong. As an example, here was my breaking point:

    A junior employee was asked by my boss to watermark some documents in advance of its publication to our users. These documents were created by me and took months of careful work and research to produce. She put the graphic on TOP of everything, and she did it on every document she was supposed to watermark. When I brought it to my boss’s attention, she said “mistakes happen” and told me to stop blaming other people for my problems. I then asked, “Is there another way I should have explained the problem? I’m sorry if I came across as accusatory,” she screamed “I COULD NOT HAVE PREDICTED COVID!” I’m still confused.

    I’m so happy to be away from these terrible people.

    1. Volunteer Enforcer*

      Wow my last employer wasn’t as bad as this and I’m still glad to be out. Here’s to not having to put up with it any more.

      1. gaslit to heck and back*

        It just really sucks because this was a project I built from scratch with no resources, exactly zero for a budget, and it’s just getting trashed because my boss only hires junior employees through word-of-mouth from other junior employees, not based on whether people have the basic skills needed.

        I mean… how do you not know the watermark goes UNDER what you’re supposed to read??? If it happened once or twice, but 8 separate times?! AAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!

    2. PJM*

      This sounds so much like my job I would swear you worked for my old boss, except we didn’t deal with watermarks on anything. If I ever dared to make even the smallest mistake, my boss would come down on me like a ton of bricks. I would be PUBLICLY criticized in the most humiliating way for the smallest of errors. But if I ever pointed out coworkers HUGE errors because it affected my work, I was accused of being a tattletale or a blame shifter. Like you, the attitude was ‘mistakes happen,’ unless, of course, I made the mistake. I quit a few years ago and I feel like I have PTSD from that place. I often wonder how they can possibly survive without me being there as their scapegoat. I just wanted to congratulate you on getting away from those terrible people and wish you luck. Hope you don’t waste as much time as I did thinking about the place and wondering how I became the scapegoat.

  51. Covid Blues*

    I got promoted to a manager role about two weeks ago…and then over the weekend my husband and I came down with Covid (we think we got it from his school, where they’re back in person). I’m really struggling with rising to the occasion of the new role (and getting my existing, non-managerial work done) while also taking care of myself and setting a good example. (Everyone in my org is supportive, this is all coming from me.) Any tips or advice?

    1. LGC*

      Honestly? I’d model how you’d treat your employees if they came down with COVID-19. It’s terrible timing but not your fault (or your husband’s fault for that matter). Staff take their cues from you, so consider how things come off. If you’re pushing through everything even if you’re severely ill, people might think they need to do that. If you take off entirely for two weeks, people might think that’s the appropriate course of action.

      I can’t say what’s right for you (other than quarantine, obviously), but I’m wishing you good luck and a quick recovery.

    2. Laura H.*

      Take care of yourselves and be gentle with yourself too. Covid is a nasty bug, even if all you get is a mild case. I’m a month out from my positive test, and two weeks out from the major sicky symptoms abating. The fatigue and diminished smell and taste are lingering (and that’s not alarming), but I’m still being careful- lest I get a relapse (likelihood unknown) or catch something else cause I overdo return to normal.

      Communicate with your manager. A reasonable one will hopefully understand delays.

      Feel better.

  52. Casey*

    Does anyone here keep a journal/bullet journal/engineering-type journal for work or school?

    I used to use a bullet journal in high school, along with a mandatory-for-class engineering notebook to track a project. I kind of dropped off the habit when I got to college, but it’s my last semester and nothing else has filled the void of organization, which has led to a less-than-stellar performance. Right now I’ve got a bullet journal for everything along with a separate notebook for a research project. Anything you do that makes yours work for you?

    1. CatCat*

      For work, I have a bullet journal for the day-to-day and a kanban-style board at my desk with sticky notes showing the status of my projects. I look at my work calendar and kanban board when deciding what goes in the bullet journal for the day.

    2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I use OneNote for my work stuff, and a bullet journal for personal.

      The OneNote gets a page per day, with occasional sub-pages if I need more details on something in an easily accessible manner. The page starts with a TODO list, and is more or less a brain dump/list of what I’m doing for the rest of it. I usually set it up in the morning, but if I know in the evening that I have a lot of things for the next day, I’ll set it up the night before. Meetings and appointments go in Outlook with reminders, and I’ll check the day’s calendar as I’m setting up my TODO list. Not everything gets checked off, so those items either get copied to the next day, or abandoned. I use sections and section groups to organize things by month and year. I’ve kept this up pretty consistently for several years now.

      The bullet journal is pretty close to the original Ryder Carroll method. I have an index, a yearly (future) log, and a monthly log that I set up in advance. I don’t do weeklies. I use a variant of his daily log system where I write down the date, and start writing. Mostly, this is things I’ve done that day, rather than TODOs. For reasons I haven’t cared to figure out, I find undone TODO notes much more frustrating in my personal journal than in my work one. However, I’m motivated by a list of things I’ve done. Other collections get started whenever I think of them. Everything goes in one big index at the front. I don’t decorate, and I don’t try to keep things together (other than that one daily log starts where the previous one ends). We’ll see if I can keep it up through the whole year this time.

    3. clover*

      I used a bullet journal type system in my last semester of undergrad. I wish I had started my first year!
      The main things I did that helped me were:

      1. Dedicated page(s) with a calendar and all assignment and exams deadlines. Each week I marked the number of hw/exams due that week with some colored dots (red for exams & blue for hw). The dots were so I could easily spot quiet vs busy weeks.

      2. One huge list with all of my course readings. Next to each reading, I drew a bar representing how long each reading would take. I split the bar into squares so 1 square = 10 pages = about 30mins reading time for me.

      3. Early on in the semester, I would track the number of hours I spent on each course by filling out some squares at the bottom of my daily/weekly page. I only spent a few weeks doing this so I could recognize how I needed to adjust my study time, based on how well I was doing in each course up to that point.

    4. SomebodyElse*

      I keep an overly simplified bullet journal for work.

      Basically a box if I have to do something and then notes for everything else, maybe a circle if somebody else is working on something. It’s basically just a running yearly log of notes from meetings, action items, and some screenshots.

      I’ve tried to get fancier with different BUJU type functions, but I find it a waste of time so it never really takes. I use onenote sort of… I want to like it, but it doesn’t feel intuitive to me and I hate the drawing interface. (I use an Ipad/Apple pencil + Noteshelf)

      I’ve been dabbling in some of the Teams Apps, to see if any of those click with me. So far nothing has jumped out as a new solution, but the whiteboard and the planner functions are nice and have some potential.

    5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I’m afraid I’m better at creating ‘systems’ than actually sticking to them, but the approach I normally use is to have a general list (could be a kanban board with post-its or using a tool such as Trello) of things on my radar, things in progress etc. Then going through each day I have a two-column list where the first box has ‘things I intend to do that day’ and the other box ‘what I actually worked on that day’. What I worked on isn’t overly detailed e.g. I don’t put things like “responded to Mike’s email about project deadlines” but rather – “Test cases for project X (2 hours)” “Estimate for Phase 4 (30 mins)” etc.

      (In my place it’s important to keep track of what we work on since we have timesheets and billable hours.)

    6. Rocket surgeon*

      I keep a paper daily log. What I did, who I met/talked to, and about what, etc. Very useful when preparing for my biannual performance reviews!

  53. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

    I’m really frustrated with my job right now (not so much the content of my work, but everything surrounding it). I’m in a revenue generating, external facing role at a university. It can be pretty isolating; we spend so much time away from the organization with our external constituents that we (at least, I) often feel adrift from the organization and often don’t have good relationships or trust built with other colleagues across the institution because they just see us as money chasers who hobknob with rich assholes. I often hear lip service from my leadership about being involved with things going on in the org, so I was really excited to get invited (by the president, no less) to join a cross-institutional taskforce that would have a lot of visibility and contact with leadership across the org. But my VP told me to turn it down because the work of the taskforce is related to my work, which, duh, that’s why I wanted to join in the first place. My boss tried to make me feel better by saying “we know you want to serve on these kind of committees and there will be other opportunities soon” but based on past situations I strongly believe they’re going to try to put me on something like the department event committee to plan the holiday party – not exactly the type of service I was hoping for.

    I don’t have a question or anything, I know this is how my departmental culture is and it’s not going to change as long as my VP is in charge. Overall he’s great, just extremely rigid and hierarchical and reluctant to change or even see that there’s a need to evolve. But the perks of this job far outweigh the culture problems so here I’ll sit, dutifully doing my exact job in the exact way prescribed to me until something different and better comes along.

  54. JustaTech*

    A wail, and then a request for concrete suggestions.
    The wail: The CEO of my company, who is new since COVID, is flying up to my site from SoCal/SoCal-adjacent to spend a week at our site. (As far as I know he will not be quarantining or anything.) He wants to have lunch with my entire department, the only department that is currently on-site at this location. (We do lab work and our company is an essential business, so we are allowed to be on-site.) I think that this is a horrible idea, as do most of my colleagues, as 1) none of us have been vaccinated, 2) SoCal is a hot spot and there’s a new, more contagious variant down there, 3) it’s January and we have construction on two sides of our building, so it’s going to be hard to convince folks to let us leave the one exterior door to the lunch room open, so the air flow won’t be great.

    When this was announced I told my boss I thought it was a bad idea, and he agreed, as did my coworker. When we spoke to our next boos up he said that other people had expressed the same concerns. So we talked with our 3X boss and at first he was completely dismissive (“We did it in November, and the tables are more than 6 feet apart.”). When we didn’t relent he kept insisting it was fine, even after we mentioned that CEO was traveling from a hot spot with a more contagious variant. Finally 3X boss said “If you *really* don’t feel *safe* you don’t *have* to come”, in a tone that said “you are all being wusses”. When we still didn’t agree (were just silent) he said “It will really look bad if it is just me and 2X boss there, and you know the trouble we’ve had with CEOs in the past…”
    Which basically means, come in or we could all get canned.
    Eventually 3X boss said we didn’t have to eat, and we could just sit with our masks on.

    I am so upset about this I nearly cried (thankfully I didn’t have my camera on). I hate that I am being asked to risk my life and health because the CEO “wants to get back to normal as soon as possible”. Yeah, and I want a unicorn.

    So here’s where I could use some advice/suggestions.
    In theory I could not go, but I know it will be counted against me and it’s still review season, and I have a big project coming up that I will need help from other groups in my department for, so I can’t really risk getting the cold shoulder from 3X boss.
    So basically I have to go. I’m going to wear 2 masks. I’m going to try to not glower at the CEO while he says whatever he wanted to say (that could have been a WebEx!).
    But what do I do if the CEO wants to get closer than 6 feet? What if he’s not wearing a mask? Do I say “CEO, please put your mask back on?” Do I just walk away?
    Do I spend the weekend embroidering a biohazard symbol on one of my masks?

    1. Octopus*

      I think you’ll have to be prepared with scripts (practice saying them as neutrally as possible) that Alison has posted related to this topic, of how to get someone to mask, to politely back yourself up, etc. “Could you please adjust your mask so it’s covering your nose too? It’s slipped down.” (said cheerfully). “Whoops, seems like we’re a bit closer than 6′. I’m going to take a couple steps back because I (live with someone high risk, am being really careful, etc.).

    2. Laura H.*

      The cheeky me says “all of y’all should be absent.” But that’s not helpful. Nor is my thought to protect personal space by any means (read stupidly rude is on the table) necessary.

      The most practical thing I can offer is to ask the boss to have your backs. And even that’s no good. I’m sorry.

      1. JustaTech*

        Oh yeah, part of me wants to spray him with isopropanol, but that’s not safe (and beyond rude).

        I guess I’ll put this in the “when someone shows you who they are, believe them” and now I know that my CEO is all about himself (and isn’t great about listening to scientists, which is not great).

    3. Annie Moose*

      It might help to talk some of this over with your coworker! Just to be sure you have each other’s backs. Plus it can be nice to have someone to look at and roll your eyes at if anything absurd happens…

      1. JustaTech*

        My coworker promised to bring a 6 food stick to poke me with (gently) if I make too much of a face at the CEO over my mask.
        Hopefully we’ll have a chance to talk to everyone before hand about how we’re going interact. If we all agree to not make plates until the CEO is done talking, then it will be easier for everyone to not eat up there. Agree beforehand that *we* will take appropriate precautions, even if the people in charge won’t.

        1. pbnj*

          I think this is the best route. I would be sure that y’all come up with a response if he asks why nobody is eating during lunch. Sorry you’re dealing with this.

    4. MommaCat*

      I would also recommend wearing some kind of eye protection around this potential plague rat, be it a face shield or goggles. This might help obscure your features a bit more, too!

      1. JustaTech*

        I’ve got some really striking lab glasses (shooting glasses count as lab glasses for impact protection, and are substantially less hideous).

    5. JustaTech*

      …And I just found out that the “lunch” is a taco bar. A taco Bar.
      In a pandemic, they think the best way to do lunch is not nice boxed lunches but rather a buffet.

      *headdesk*

      Looks like I’ll be eating a power bar in my car.

      1. Groundhogs Again*

        You say they’re coming up from SoCal- are you in CA at all? Unless you’re in extreme Northern Ca, this type of event is still prohibited by law. No dining indoors.

        They’re clearly going to violate the 120 mile rule, so that’s no leverage. Are you in CA? I’ve got more thoughts if you are.

        1. JustaTech*

          Nope, I’m in a different state that just started allowing indoor dining (today, Monday).

          But, here’s the best, best part. Over the weekend out entire company went back a phase to “only business essential personnel allowed on-site”, which means that only about 7 people should even be in the building today at all. I still haven’t heard back from anyone in my department if this “lunch” is still on, but I’m hoping this means it’s off.

          (Apparently the CEO originally wanted to have individual lunches and dinners out, which was just not going to happen. The “lunch” was the compromise. I do not know what planet this man lives on.)

          1. JustaTech*

            And the “lunch” is still on.

            So I will go in, double masked, open the exterior door, sit to hear what he has to say, and leave.
            And try to get everyone else to agree to not eat in the lunch room. (There are several senior men who think that the lunch room is fine, and that 6 feet indoors for 30+ minutes is fine, and no data will convince them otherwise.)

            I’ve done my best attempt at “angry” eye makeup that isn’t full goth.

      2. Bex*

        Oh my god. Call in sick. If your boss starts giving you a hard time, launch into a ghastly and vivid description of your symptoms. It’s amazing how quickly people will get off the phone once “explosive diarrhea” enters the conversation.

  55. Anon Librarian*

    Welp.
    Semi-regular librarian commenter here, using a different anonymous username for this, because I just learned that about 1/4 of our library department, which is a city department, is being temporarily reassigned to the health department to help with the vaccination efforts. Perhaps not as egregious as the letter writer at the library who was going to become a daycare worker, but still, in my opinion, upsetting. I am not one of the ones being reassigned, but we are losing about half our branch staff.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Hmmm… I guess my question would be reassigned to do what? I know some public libraries are serving as vaccination points for communities that don’t have public health facilities. This could be a real issue or it could be just a thing that’s happening because they need warm bodies who are organized. I don’t know. Things are just so weird right now. It’s hard to judge how big of an issue this is without knowing more.

      1. JustaTech*

        Yeah, if I was thinking about the best way to use librarians for a vaccination site it would be
        1) data entry for all the vaccination records. That’s taking forever in my state.
        2) handing out forms for people to fill out before they’re vaccinated (from behind a plexiglas shield).
        3) line-wrangling (last choice, and only for the tall librarians, because the line wranglers need to be easy to see).

        But you can’t use non-trained, non-certified people to actually *do* the immunizations, and you don’t want non-medical people doing the 15-minute watch, just in case someone does have a reaction and they need medical assistance this instant.

        Hopefully it’s something in line with a librarian’s skills and at least as safe as their current work.

        1. A random poster*

          I really hope they have EMS on site for the 15 minute post vaccine watch. EMS was there at my vaccination site but I could see them trying to get away with not having EMS at the smaller sites.

        2. A poster*

          I really hope they have EMS on site for the 15 minute post vaccine watch. EMS was there at my vaccination site but I could see them trying to get away with not having EMS at the smaller sites.

      2. Nope.*

        Yeah, I doubt they’re being assigned to do things that require real medical assistance, like the shot itself. And to be honest, I would not be upset by this at all. I’d love to help this all happen much faster, so we can start to get back to normality.

        1. bluephone*

          Yeah, it sounds like (I hope), they’re hoping to use the library staff for non-medical stuff which still helps get more people vaccinated. My state, Pennsylvania, has bungled their vaccine roll-out so badly that I would be psyched if my local libraries became vaccine sites–the more places to get shots, the better!

          1. Nope.*

            They have been rolling out the vaccine through one of our programs here, and I’d jump at the chance if they asked for assistance! But they’re a pretty separate program, so that’s unlikely to happen. I just want this to get done!

            1. JustaTech*

              At one mass vaccination site in my city the university that was hosting it asked for volunteers to do all the non-medical stuff (organize lines, hand out paperwork, type up paperwork, sanitize all the pens and clipboards, et) and they got 8000 volunteers.

              The semi-skilled people power is there, it just needs to be organized, which is always the hard part.

    2. Anon for This*

      I am one of the fortunate ones that got the vaccine. There were all kinds of support staff needed beyond the medical – people to give us forms to fill out, someone to check us in, someone else to make sure we waited 15 minutes before departure to ensure we didn’t have an allergic reaction.

      I wouldn’t be crazy about losing half my staff either, but this strikes me as one of those all hands on deck kinds of things government employees get called on to do in emergencies. Sympathies.

    3. Me*

      Hi. Emergency Management county worker here. This is a normal function of emergency operations in government. People get reassigned from roles to fill temporary critical rolls in the emergency operations. In fact there’s likely a written plan that addresses this.

      It easier and more reasonable for the government to temporarily reassign it’s workers to cover mission critical then it would be to try to hire people to do the work. They almost certainly aren’t being asked to administer vaccines but rather provide administrative and operational support.

      I understand it’s frustrating but it’s important work and the sooner the emergency is handled and over, the sooner government can return to it’s normal functions.

      1. Paris Geller*

        I’m aware. I’ve been working in city governments my entire working career. I have been called in for help after tornadoes & hurricanes. And yes, I understand government temporarily reassigns its workers. The library staff is going to mostly staff the health department call center. The issue is that they are taking 1/4 of our staff, but we are ALSO continuing operations as normal. My library is fully open. We are suppose to stay fully open with literally half of our frontline staff gone, AND no one is allowed to work overtime.

    4. RagingADHD*

      I don’t think that’s remotely comparable to being asked to become a caregiver for children.

      Which, honestly, wasn’t “egregious” either. It’s a public crisis. City employees are in public service. Helping first-responders return to work and helping the health department organize vaccine delivery are public services.

      If my neighbor, a dermatologist, is taking extra shifts at the ER because they need any doctor they can get to intubate people, I don’t see how organizing people and records at a vaccine site is all that out of line for someone whose normal job is also about organizing information and getting it to people.

      1. Anon Librarian*

        Sorry, but being asked to be a caregiver for children is definitely egregious for the library world. We are not daycare providers. We are not child care staff. I do not have the proper training or licensing or education to serve as any kind of daycare worker.

        1. RagingADHD*

          I think the disconnect is that you are looking at the scenario through the lens of what is normal “for the library world.”

          It’s a global pandemic and everything is in crisis mode. Nothing is normal. None of us get to stay in our own personal “worlds.”

          Requiring first-responders to return to work and leave their children unsupervised at home would be egregious. Reassigning library workers was just a less-than-ideal compromise that nobody liked.

    5. Anon Librarian*

      Hello all!

      Thanks for the replies. I definitely understand where everyone is coming from, and I admit I might have gotten a little testy on this issue. To clarify, I understand that it is normal in government to temporarily reassign roles in case of an emergency. Yes, staff are not being asked to do medical procedures. They will mostly be working the call centers.

      I think I was so upset and worried that that I didn’t clarify in my initial comment: 1/4 of our department is being reassigned to the health department. . . and the rest of us are suppose to continue as normal. I know in some parts of the countries libraries are still cubside-only or closed, but we are completely open and have been for months. We are losing half of our frontline staff and being told to that phrase that is unfortunately so common in the library world, “do more with less”. The powers that be literally want us to continue operating at the same pace providing circulation, computer assistance, and virtual programming as before with half our staff, and we are not allowed to give overtime.

      It’s also rubbing me the wrong way because of how common job creep is in library circles. I love being a librarian, but we cannot be daycare providers/social workers/tax preparers/etc, AND information professionals. It’s just not possible. I work in a very different system, but just look up the Chicago Public Libraries for how so many libraries are not keeping their workers safe.

      1. Natalie*

        I mean, I’m not sure you have to worry about global pandemic vaccine clinics becoming a permanent part of librarianship? It’s, by definition, a temporary issue.

        1. Bluephone*

          Yeah, I can’t imagine all these repurposed vaccine sites staying that way after enough vaccines have been given/here immunity has been reached. My local library gets turned into a polling place for every election but then goes back to being a library the next day.

          1. Anon Librarian*

            I mean, I work at a library that is a polling place, but the difference is the county elections office handles elections. We’re not asked to be an election site AND oversee the election.

        2. Anon Librarian*

          I mean, temporary as in not forever, but we have been told these employees may be reassigned for 6+ months, while again the rest of us are suppose to provide the exact same level of service (if not more), with everyone working exactly 40 hours a week .

          1. WellRed*

            I think this sounds frustrating but I think the only thing I can offer is what everyone else with unreasonable job expectations gets told here and that is to do what you can and let the balls drop otherwise. You literally and physically can’t do more than x amount of work in 40 hours. When it’s time to clock out, it’s time to clock out. The rest of the shelving will have to wait, etc. I will also say, I bet it won’t be as long as six months. As things start to ramp up, vaccination wise, things will go faster and smoother and they’ll probably have less need of your colleagues. Right now, everything is such a mess! hang in there.

    6. Morning Reader*

      Wow, that’s terrible. Maybe once they get organized they will find they don’t need as many? In my county, I signed up to be a volunteer to help with a vaccination clinic. I’m a retired librarian. Would it be possible to suggest using retired employees as volunteers? I think I still have whatever organizational skills that might be useful. If you had a plentiful supply of qualified volunteers, maybe they wouldn’t need to pull as many employees.
      I’m hoping that if I’m selected to be a volunteer, I’d qualify to get the vaccine myself. Not trying to jump the line, and I’m not old enough to get in until group 2, but I don’t see how I (or anyone) could safely help in a crowded situation without getting vaccinated first.
      Are your library employees being offered the vaccine before they are reassigned?

  56. Rara Avis*

    For several years I’ve been on a committee at work. All committees are completely voluntary, but I thought the work was important. However, I think it’s time for me to step away. The administration hasn’t been very responsive to the requests of the committee, and there’s a lot of frustration. Meetings seem to have devolved into wheel-spinning and complaint sessions. Also, being virtual means that people from other divisions can join, and there’s one colleague in particular who just rubs me the wrong way. I don’t feel like I’m contributing much at this point, and there are many better uses of my time. I like and respect the founders/leaders of the committee and feel guilty about dropping out. In my place, when asked why I’m leaving, would you give the polite response that I just have too much on my plate right now (which is mostly true), or explain all my real reasons?

    1. Asenath*

      I’d be polite. There doesn’t seem to be much point in giving your real reasons when you won’t be around to see or get involved with changes based on your reasons (in the unlikely event such changes are made). And there’s a possibility that explaining your real reasons will ruffle feathers sufficiently to be remembered if you want to join another, better, and more effective committee someday, especially if people you respect are also in the new committee. So I don’t think its likely for there to be any benefit to either you or your committee for you to tell them exactly why you are leaving.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’d use some polite form language. Options I’ve used before include “I’ve really enjoyed serving on the Committee, but I think it’s time for me to focus on other things and give someone else and chance to do this work.” OR “It’s been a really interesting and useful experience being on this committee and I feel like I’ve learned a lot, but due to shifting work priorities, I think it’s time for me to move on.” Variations on this theme are fine.

  57. voluptuousfire*

    What do you all think about non-traditional initial screens? I’m not a fan. Last night I got a response from a job I applied to that wanted me to answer a bunch of questions. Another wanted me to write up mock emails (which I ended up doing but was rejected because “they didn’t take it up to the next level,” which still puzzles me). Another wanted a cognizance test done. All of this was either in place of a precursor to a phone screen.

    Call me old school, but I like to talk to a recruiter first before I do any of this. Recruitment is personal and you really can’t automate it.

    1. CatCat*

      I think if they’re asking for a significant time investment from me without me having the chance to ask my own initial questions, I’m going to pass. I friend shared a recruitment ad from her employer that was in my profession and the advertisement had a BUNCH of questions and said the questions “would serve as a first interview.” I told my friend the ad was terrrrrrible and going to turn off a lot of qualified applicants.

      1. voluptuousfire*

        Same. And frankly if you’ve done your homework, you have “best answers” for common interview questions and general ones for your choice of role.

    2. lapgiraffe*

      I just had one that was your classic “personality test” that is actually them trying to figure out if you are going to steal from them or break the law, then 15 minutes (timed!) of complicated “which combination of shapes don’t fit” puzzles that have literally nothing to do with the work at hand, followed by video interview prompts with a link that expired within the hour. I was NOT showered or dressed in a way that I would want to be seen and it completely derailed my day.

      I spent two hours on cover letter and resume touch ups before this. I thought I was going to upload my docs, press submit, then go take a shower and have lunch, but instead my drained brain had to jump immediately into what ended up being 1.5 hours of screening without any warning. Spoiler alert – didn’t get a call back and never once spoke with a human.

    3. Filosofickle*

      Yeah, no, I won’t do tasks until I’ve talked to a live human. And, frankly, I am annoyed when they ask me to do significant tasks (like writing tests) before I’ve talked a hiring manager. I’ve done it, but feel I should be given the opportunity to know if I’m truly interested in them before giving them hours of my time. 15 minutes with a recruiter doesn’t usually do that.

    4. RagingADHD*

      I submitted a sample writing assignment before the interview for my current gig, but it made sense because it’s a field where a) there are tons of aspiring applicants with low-to-zero experience/skills, and b) nothing that you could put on your resume, and nothing an interviewer could possibly ask would make up for the lack of those skills.

      “Can you do the technical side of the job” is an important filter before reaching “can you do the people side of the job.”

      For other types of work, it wouldn’t make sense. I think a lot of these personality test and other hoops are truly just a way of whittling down the numbers to make the amount of resumes manageable before a human reads them.

    5. Hmmm*

      I really really hate these stupid assessments that are now becoming increasingly more commonplace, even for very basic entry level positions. I recently had to do a timed online math assessment, where they asked me to answer basic math questions (e.g. If Bob takes train A at 9:45 and gets off the train at 10:17, and if Jane takes train B at 8:50 and gets off at 10:33, how long were their rides combined?), but the questions were written in the most convoluted way and I was only given 90 seconds to answer. I’m a slow reader and it took me a good amount of time just to read the question, and barely enough time to calculate and input the answer. Ughh.

      But I agree that the initial recruitment phone call is incredibly important. It’s not just about the content of your answers, but it’s also important to see your body language, facial expressions, and tone of voice to get a sense of how an applicant feels about the role. Do they seem excited about the opportunity? Can they carry themselves and speak professionally? Are they stumped when asked about basic functions of the job? Anyone can google the answers and craft the most perfect response if you give them the questions on a form, but actually having a conversation with them to see if they can speak about their expertise and experience is really valuable.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I did a couple of these math tests for jobs on Indeed. A message appeared that said I would be sent there results of the tests. I never received a single result.

    6. Paris Geller*

      I recently did a “written interview”. It felt odd, but I was interested in the job so I still did it. Granted, I think what this particular organization was asking for makes a lot more sense than writing up mock emails or a cognizance test. This was one four questions, all relevant to the job. They were basically just questions that would have been asked in an interview, but I guess the hiring panel wanted more information than what was just on a resume/cover letter before the interview. I actually do have an interview with them this coming Friday, so I’ll see how the whole process goes from there. I will say, though, that the organization has been incredibly organized throughout this process, which does point to a good sign.

      1. WellRed*

        For pete’s sake, the whole point of an interview is get more information than is on the resume and cover letter. Please update us on how the actual interview goes!

        1. Paris Geller*

          I agree! I think if I might have just passed if I hadn’t been impressed with the interview process aside from that. I’m job searching because I’m underpaid, but I like my job and I’m not unemployed, so I’m being picky with my applications and interviews.

  58. MyBossSucks*

    I am in a “Your boss sucks and isn’t going to change” situation.
    He looses track of things then lies to cover up. He lies about deadlines. Lies about budgets. Lots and lots of lies.

    I am doing my best to get out since going to higher ups does not help (trust me, I, and others, have tried).

    Any advice on how to stay sane before I can leave? I’m documenting everything in shared notes (where everyone can see revision history) to deal with the lying, but anything else to just… cope emotionally while being in such a toxic workplace?

    I’d quit but I (and my family) need the health insurance. (grumble grumble Medicare for all would solve so many things)

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Lying boss. Not everything can be a hill to die on, decide what is important to you and what is not. Try to apply those guidelines consistently. Consistency is hard because there’s usually a lot of emotions at work, try to separate out what is emotionally based and what is necessity based. One of the things I decided was important was nailing down deadlines. I would repeat back to the boss, “So the deadline is Wednesday, right?” Boss would agree.

      Then on Tuesday boss would become a hot mess because the deadline is TODAY and wth is the work?
      I’d calmly state, “You told me Wednesday. I repeated it back to you that I heard you say Wednesday. You said that was correct.”
      I played the role of the MOST Accommodating Employee on Earth. “If you had let me know Tuesday was the day. I would have had it ready for you.”

      This thing of repeating their own words back to them does catch them and they see what will happen if they try to lie about what they said. I was able to nail down due dates for things using this technique. This also worked in for supplies or information: “So you are saying the supplies/info I need will be here on Wednesday, right?” The boss would agree. WHEN the ordered item did not show up, I said, “I repeated it back to you and you confirmed Wednesday. I mentioned that we would fall behind if we did not have Item. So now we are behind.”

      When she told me gossip/lies about my cohorts, I just ignored it. If the lie impacted me, I’d push: “I am sorry to hear that Sue does not like me and is upset with me. I think Sue is a wonderful worker and a terrific person. I think the three of us should sit down and talk this through.” And the backpedalling started because Sue never said anything about me. She tried the same thing again later with Jane. I said, “Oh look, there’s Jane right now. Let’s go over right now and talk this over.” My boss literally grabbed my arm to stop me from walking over to Jane. Bingo, this one was over also.

      A year or two later, Jane told me, “Yeah, Boss told me that you said you hated my guts. I just blew it off also.”

      1. MyBossSucks*

        The deadline thing you described is basically my life, all the time. This script is helpful. I’ve been using “Oh, Wednesday is in the notes and you agreed the notes were complete at the end of the meeting and the deadlines correct. I’ll try adding “If you had let me know Tuesday was the day. I would have had it ready for you.”

        I am trying to be careful of my hills to die on–one I’ve chosen to not die on is when he has promised to do something I can do myself. Rather than call out that he never did it… I just do it myself if it isn’t done when I need it.

  59. Jaid*

    My coworker was asked to be an on the job instructor for new hires on Monday. They’re on the West Coast and we’re on the East Coast and they had her doing this over Skype and the phone, no video. She was cool with this and the new hires loved her. This morning, she comes in and gets an email telling her that the new hires are being shunted off to do clerical work.
    I feel bad to these guys. They weren’t trained very well to begin with and now they’re going to forget everything because they aren’t using their skills.
    It did get me to help out and rewrite some job aids that J. is gonna send over so when they get back(!) they’ll have something to work with.
    We work for a three letter federal agency and this is just typical….

  60. Health Policy Wonk (in training)*

    I got into my dream grad school!! I didn’t think I was going to get in, but I did!

    For any of you policy wonks out there (especially those who specialize in health policy), I’d love to get your advice on grad school and how to make the most of it. Any skills that I should make sure to leave grad school with? Anything you wish you knew before?

    3. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Make best friends with the support systems on campus, like The Writing Center, the library, or the Learning Commons. A lot of grad students think they should know how to do the mechanics of studying or research by now and only need to learn content, but there’s so many ways these places can help you learn advanced skills. They’re also great for brainstorming and bouncing ideas around.

      Get a citation management software to organize your research and help create bibliographies. I love Zotero (it’s open source and free!) but there are a ton of options. Your campus may have a subscription to one where you can download the software for free.

      Congrats!

    4. Policy Wonk*

      Congrats!! I’ve been out of school too long to be helpful on that score, but look at what you want to do when you are done, and check the boxes on how to get there. For example, if you want to come into government, look at what is needed to become a Presidential Management Fellow, then look for opportunities that will help fill those requirements.

      Good luck!

  61. cool*

    had an interview the other day with a particular highlight I wanted to share. I haven’t been at my current position for even a year but am trying to get out because … that’s a whole other story. the interviewer asked about that – wondering why I was already looking so soon. I know some people worry about getting asked that question in an interview, but he didn’t seem suspicious or anything, just curious. I appreciated that he asked and used that time to explain that I am looking for a better culture fit, and pointed out that the culture of his company is much more in tune with what I want. I also stressed that I am definitely looking to be somewhere long-term; this was just a bump in the road. I was happy with how I handled it, and I have secured a second interview!!

    anyone else have particular interview wins?

    2. Cat Mom*

      I am hoping to have a phone screen win on Tuesday – my resume and cover letter won me this first-level interview. Currently, I have multiple part-time jobs that are varying degrees of okay, and at least one of them would be fine if they would have turned into a full-time job. But the part-time jobs are not going to and it’s time to move up.

      So I am doing the AAM thing of reading and taking notes based on their website and reviewing my resume and the job description and formulating some questions to ask during the interview.

      cool, good luck on your next interview!

  62. background check*

    I’m in the process of being onboarded for my new job! I am fretting away, waiting for my background check to be finished so that I can give my notice. I have worked in banking for almost a decade (I work on the back end and do not handle money) and have no criminal history but my credit is a mess. A few years ago, I had a few accounts go into collections, and others get lates while my family was going through a challenging time. I am paying the accounts in collections but am not in a position where I can pay them completely off at the moment. How worried should I be?

    1. Techie*

      This probably depends on what your new job is, but I can tell you at my company (which is a software company and admittedly laid back), we’re only concerned about violent or really unethical crime (like straight-up thievery) and even then it’s not an automatic “no” (i.e. if it was a single incident that happened a long time ago, it could be forgiven). Obviously I can’t say that’s the case for every company, but I’m confident it’s not a UNIVERSAL red flag!

  63. CFP Wannabe*

    Is anyone here a certified financial planner? I work in the college access/college planning field and my organization is willing to pay for me to take a CFP course (a board recognized one) and the CFP exam. Because of life circumstances/family obligations, I can only do a self-paced course. I would not be able to do one of the 9-month courses, it’ll likely take me about two years to do all the courses.
    I’m curious if people can recommend one of the self-paced ones? I thought the Boston University one looked good, and it allows for students to take the full certificate courseload over five years. But I’m also curious, how are the self-paced courses valued in the CFP community? Would it be like getting a bachelor’s degree from an online university? I’m very new to this and appreciate any advice!

      1. CFP Wannabe*

        No, we’re just looking to expand my knowledge base for saving for college and I think they want the certification for credibility. I was planning on taking my time with the education piece (give myself two years for self-paced) and then hopefully certified in three years from now. But do most CFPs need 7 and 66?

    2. Chestnut Mare*

      I am; although I don’t work in the field anymore. I took the exam about 15 years ago. Here are my thoughts – others might have different experiences based on their particular circumstances.

      IMO, no one cares where you take the course, as it’s truly a means to an end. I don’t think anyone has ever asked where I did my coursework; as long as one has the three letters, that’s all that really matters.

      It sounds nice to be able to stretch out the coursework over several years, but the exam is so comprehensive that you’ll need to have a really structured and disciplined plan to study all the material you’ve covered along the way. The test is rigorous.

      I’m not sure why this designation would be an asset in the college access field, but I’m of the opinion that if someone is going to pay for my education, I’ll take it. I would give some thought as to how this will fit into your overall life career plans, as it’s a lot of effort, stress and time.

      1. CFP Wannabe*

        I’m a “constant learner” and have similar sentiments that if my company wants to pay for it, I’m willing to do it. And I’m also thinking about having a more flexible career in the future, for example, one where I can work from home/work from different places (we live in a pricey area and might not always want to stay here). And I find personal finance interesting and enjoy talking about it with people which is a plus.
        In my area, I see a lot of people looking for the best ways to finance college and thought it would be something I could transition into in the next 5-10 years. But since I don’t know any CFPs I don’t know if that is a common client base.

        1. Chestnut Mare*

          OK. I’ll be honest and say that I think your employer is off-base here. Having someone get a CFP to advise families who are saving for college sounds odd to me, as the CFP designation is much, much broader than that. Unless the families you work with are seriously wealthy, it’s not going to be exceptionally useful, imo. The calculation that you use to determine future college costs and the savings required is quite literally the first thing I recall learning from my CFP coursework…it gets a lot more arcane and complex from there.

          You don’t need to have securities licenses to sit for the CFP exam, but since it’s so investment-heavy, they would be useful. You need to be sponsored by a FINRA broker-dealer, though.

  64. Toasty Bacon and Eggs*

    Would anyone have any tips on how to list multiple temporary jobs that were from the same temp agency and same company, but with gaps of unemployment on a resume? I have been temping for the last 3 years, with 1-4 months gaps between roles ( roles were all in different areas of finance, with different managers and duties each time.)

    Also, does any one have any tips to explain to an interviewer as to why the company I am temping at does not want to hire me permanently? The roles I’m doing are around 3-4 months to cover for leaves, so there wasn’t a option to be permanent. I have been looking for permanent work elsewhere, but I have had a few interviews there the interviewer gave off the impression that the company didn’t like my work, or that I didn’t put enough effort in wanting to work there permanently.

    1. Managing In*

      Any reason why you can’t say what you told us here? – ‘The roles were to cover someone’s leave and the company didn’t have the option to bring me on permanently’ How did the weird-vibes interviewers react to that?

      1. Toasty Bacon and Eggs*

        Managing In- The interviewers would usually ask if I was aware that the role was temporary ( My answer-Yes), then its either a weird pause into the next question or a follow up question of Why did I even take the position
        (I tend to get flummox about that question and can’t find an answer- like, should I say that I would have wanted to work instead of being unemployed, at least the temp jobs are within my field?)

        1. LadyByTheLake*

          “I needed an income while I continued looking for a permanent position, and I am excited about working for your company because of XYX”

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      Not all temp jobs are temp-to-perm. I would just be up front that the jobs were to cover a leave and there were no permanent positions available. Most interviewers understand that.

    3. RC Rascal*

      I have seen it handled this way on a resume:

      Llama Groomer, Temporary Agency Company (years 2016-present)
      –Performed contract llama detailing at XYZ company.
      –Performed contract llama clipping at ABC Company
      –Performed contract llama salon process improvement at LMN , Inc.

      Accompany this with an explanation that you have been fortunate enough to work with the agency on an ongoing basis and have chosen these interim projects to help you get exposure to a variety of skills/work environments, etc. (Give an explanation that makes it sound like it was your choice, even if it wasn’t). Of course, now that you have experienced all this variety, you now know you are looking for a permanent situation that will allow you to do whatever the role you are interviewing allows. Also–Obviously the agency must like you if they keep using you. Frame your answers so they are your client, not the agency’s clients.

      Don’t go down the rabbit hole with interviewers who assume all contract roles are temp to permanent. If someone tries to take you there, smile and say, “Oh, no. Agency sent me because I am good at coming in and figuring out how to serve as a bridge while employees are on leave.”

      1. Toasty Bacon and Eggs**

        RC Rascal,

        My situation would be more I’m temping in different areas of the same company, with gaps between jobs because I didn’t find work elsewhere. Would I be able to combine everything with the whole 2016-to

        For example
        Llama Groomer, Temp Agency (2017-Current)
        -Performed Contract Llama detail for Company ABC (Oct2017-June2018)
        -Maintain Contract Llama clipping work, then trained/transferred Llama clipping to Llama Groomers in India for Company ABC ( Aug 2018 to Jan 2020)
        -Assisted with Contract filing and labeling of Llama paperwork for Company ABC (Apr 2020-Jul 2020)
        -Created Contract Llama processes for beauty pageant work (Aug 2020-Dec 2020)
        -Performing Contract month end Llama duties (Jan 2021-Current)

        1. WellRed*

          yes, this is how I would do it. Though I wouldn’t put ABC company in each job. Maybe:
          Llama Groomer, Temp Agency (2017-current)
          ABC Company
          job
          job
          job
          Or, Llama Groomer, ABC Company though Temp Agency (not sure about this, but I’m sure there’s a convention for long term temping like this

    4. Hmmm*

      I think your answer can be a combination of what the previous commentators have said:

      “Yes, I had a great working relationship with Temp Agency, and they were able to place me on several temp positions at Company A while their permanent employees were out on leave. Since these positions were only created to help cover the person that was OOO, the company was not able to convert me to a permanent employee at the end of each assignment. But I am grateful for all these opportunities that I’ve had to further expand my skillset in X, Y, and Z, which I feel can be applied to this position.”

      Most importantly, I think the way you deliver your answer is key. If you sound confident in your explanation, that should make the interviewer feel at ease, but if you sound uncertain in your answer, that might make your interviewer think you’re hiding something (e.g. terrible performance, difficult to work with, etc.)

      I worked in a super niche industry where jobs were hard to come by, so I have a series of short stints with some minor unemployment gaps. But I found that if I can offer an explanation in a confident and matter-of-fact manner up front, interviewers are less likely to dismiss me or doubt my abilities.

    5. Malika*

      I have the same on my cv. I temped during the financial crash before landing a permanent role. I entered the start and end date of the period and stated i did sick and vacation leave for two different companies during this period. Because i stated upfront i was a temp i never received questions about how many months in total i worked in that period for the two companies. I then swiftly moved on to describe the skills i developed and the responsibilites i took on.
      I also never received the question as to why they didn’t hire me permanently. If they do, you can tell them that during this period the company saw you as THE person to place in different departments. The fact they did repeat business with you, is in itself a sign of trust and your capacity for longevity within a company.

  65. Filosofickle*

    Following on the diversity discussion this week. My consulting team is working on a culture project with a public service organization in a largely Black US city. The org is diverse, but divided. One side of the house is mostly white and one side is mostly Black. There is mistrust between the groups, for reasons including race and status. (The Black staff feel less respected. They’re right.) While it’s not a DEI project, equity will be an elephant in the room. The project team from their org is almost entirely BIPOC. Our team is white.

    This is a collaborative project, bringing together a broad set of folks across roles and levels, to define foundational elements of their culture. So far we’ve held listening conversations. Next we bring everyone together for creative workshops. What we’ve heard is we need to build trust, be patient, and acknowledge the elephants. We need to make our sessions as accessible, engaging, and inclusive as possible, especially since our kind of hands-on, creative work will be unfamiliar to many. My goal in workshops is always to listen and facilitate their ideas, not make us the center of attention, and that’s never been more important than now. We simply have to take up less air. (And now I need to go send a note to our lead 100% confirming he has this top of mind and agreeing to check each other…)

    It’s a shame these sessions can’t be in person. Virtual makes it harder to build rapport and help people feel welcome. It is also regrettable that my team is all white — If I’d been part of planning I’d have recommended changing that but it’s too late now. We will miss important clues and make mistakes.

    If you have general advice I’m all ears! This is a wonderful organization, and I want to do right by them. While I’ve done a lot of independent learning and have tapped into wisdom of our client team, the commentariat here is so insightful I thought I’d see what y’all have. I’ll also just take any well wishes OR corrections about anything that feels off in my language/framing — what mistakes have I already made?

    1. Fiona*

      No advice, but if it makes you feel better, I’ve heard that some people have felt more comfortable bringing up issues of equity and discrimination in the virtual space than in person. Obviously there is a loss of real world intimacy and community when you’re on a Zoom call, but for some folks, speaking up to the camera (instead of a room full of dozens of people) is actually easier. Again, that might not be the case for your situation — but maybe there are opportunities or silver linings here which might make you feel more optimistic about the workshops. Good luck!

      1. Filosofickle*

        Thanks for that! It’s true, everyone occupying the same size rectangle is an equalizer and it can promote turn-taking. (And there are no bosses in our sessions yay.) This group is less tech oriented and that is probably the biggest challenge for encouraging engagement.

  66. I'm just here for the cats*

    Anyone have any suggestion for how to express that you only want or could work for a few months. Like should it be on the resume or cover letter or both? I am on contract for only 10 months of the year. So June and July I don’t work. But I would like to find some temporary work for those months. I was thinking retail (if covid allows). Should I put on my resume an objective like “looking for a temporary position for June and July.”

    Any suggestions would be helpful.

      1. Paris Geller*

        Agree, I think summer employment is typical. I also think a lot of retail and customer servicing facing positions are used to that term, since it’s not uncommon for teachers/college students/HS students to look for summer employment.

    2. Sleepy*

      Yes, summer or “seasonal employment” is definitely a thing. Retail is a good target, or restaurants with a summer surge (large patio, boardwalk locations, etc).

      I would put it in both your cover letter and resume since not all of these positions are even going to need cover letters.

  67. another worker bee*

    I am at my wits end with one of my employees. He’s very book smart and on paper, one of the most qualified people on our team (in a tech field that is hard to qualify for). There’s two problems:
    1) this guy is a bit dated on his actual computer skills, and he struggles to develop at the same pace as the rest of the team because of it. He does not see his weaknesses there as a place to learn more and improve, but rather lashes out and complains that ‘the system is designed poorly because its too difficult’ (for developers, the fact that we store different projects in a few different git repositories is what he is complaining about, and he is very poor utilizing git from the command line, and fundamentally does not understand the concept of code review).
    2) He cannot follow directions to save his life. A fair amount of our job is creating documentation and training others, and we have certain standards and templates that we hold our written work to. He seems incapable of following guidelines (think, we need 3-5 bullet points of about a sentence each as a high level overview and he writes a long wall of text, we put things in a certain file format and he ignores that and tries to submit work in the wrong format, etc.)

    Aside from a few specific technical weaknesses, it’s mostly executive functioning that is the problem. My boss (who was this guys boss before me) will tell me how smart, skilled, experienced this guy is and honestly…I don’t care what he looks like on paper, because he can’t actually get the work done. He may have 20 papers published in our field but he can’t follow basic directions. My least experienced (and cheapest) employees require less oversight than this guy, and can generally produce something usable after 1-2 rounds of feedback from me. So my question is…has anyone ever put someone on a a PIP for like…not being able to follow directions? How do you even word that?

    1. PollyQ*

      You should be able to put him on a PIP for the specific tasks he’s doing poorly, including being able to receive feedback gracefully and work mostly independently, without referring to the higher-level problem of “not following directions.”

      Have you had the blunt discussion with your boss where you specify just how poorly he’s doing in multiple areas and how much extra time & trouble he is compared to other employees? Do you think if you go the PIP route and he doesn’t improve enough, your boss would support you in letting him go?

    2. Not So NewReader*

      [I am not in your arena so please excuse improper wording…]

      Bob is not comfortable using the different git repositories and does not use them.
      Bob does not effectively utilize git from the command line.
      Bob is not comfortable with the code review process.

      Additionally Bob routinely does not follow standard guidelines such as use of bullet points instead of paragraphs of text and fails to use customary file formats which are standard in our department/company.

      It sounds to me like he is stuck in a decade gone by. He is following old rules that he is accustom to and has not adapted to the new rules or standards in place currently. Or he makes up his own rules as he goes along.
      You can go as far as saying, “Bob requires x rounds of feedback, where the average person here only requires 1-2 rounds of feedback to produce something workable.”

      So instead of saying “does not follow instructions” you simply show which standards or customs Bob routinely fails to follow. Show WHY you have to give feedback. I’d hit the recurring problems and not worry about the one-offs.

  68. chemanon*

    I am so, so happy right now!

    I started a new job in December because my last job I was on call 24/7 – and I was getting calls EVERY weekend, so many evenings, holidays… thanksgiving I walked away from my phone for a couple hours (because y’know, thanksgiving…. I want to spend time with my family) and came back to 10 missed calls, 5 texts, 4 VM.

    With this new job I am making nearly 20% more AND, because it’s not manufacturing, I am not on call 24/7!!! I can forget about my phone for the weekend and nothing blows up (metaphorically… usually)!!! I can go on VACATIONS without needing to be available for calls!!! Evenings after 5 are MINE again!!!

    But yesterday I was talking to my old boss and he had to go – they were having an emergency call at 5 pm because of another mistake. And I realized yesterday how I could never ever go back!

  69. ZombieDC*

    I have a question about reimbursements…I take an Uber/Lyft to work and have since I started there just due to where I live/where I work is easier to do that than spend sometimes up to 1.5 hours one way on a bus even though I only live 8 miles from the office. During normal times, I had zero issues with this as it’s part of my commuting and the office is open.

    I was asked to go into my office one mid-morning July (we were still on lockdown, and I was WFH) to help an associate I am not assigned to in order to finalize a drop dead item that had to be finalized and hand-carried elsewhere via courier. Associate had a secretary who was not competent and they’ve been fired.

    Then the night before Thanksgiving, a partner asked me to go into the office around 9PM to help him finalize something and send to a foreign client (he met me at the office to assist). He gave me $20 towards my Uber *to* the office.

    I submitted reimbursement requests that totaled in the neighborhood of $80 for all of these trips, and they were denied as they were part of normal work expectations.

    I’ve never asked to be reimbursed if I have to go in for the people I work for, or when I’ve had to cover the office for the essential services person when they’ve been out.

    Am I wrong to be annoyed at this?

    1. A Secret*

      I can see both sides of this. It could be that part of your job (it sounds like it is) is to help out the other partners (as you did). Since you’re WFH, you’re saving on regular commuting costs (BTW, it’s not clear to me if you always expensed the rideshares involved in your daily commute. If so, that was a pretty big perk you used to get. Maybe it’s been eliminated for cost cutting). That said, I wonder if this could be appealed. Esp. the late night uber (a lot companies have specific reimbursement policies that cover extra benefits for transit for late night work). So I would see if you can (politely, calmly) ask your boss or someone in accounting to review the specific charges in light of them being outside of your assigned duties and outside of typical hours. Maybe your office is trying to cut down on costs and someone in accounting is being overzealous. They also might not have all the context about these being outside of your typical duties/hours.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I agree with A Secret that you should double check, but it does seem like these would be considered usual commuting expenses that wouldn’t be reimbursed. I can see making a strong argument that the pre-Thanksgiving evening trip to the office was outside the normal scope of commuting, but I’d bet that’s why the partner gave you $20, probably knowing the rideshare itself wouldn’t be reimbursed.

      I think you have a strong case to ask for policy guidelines around extraordinary events like having to go in at 9pm the night before a holiday, but in general I think you’re out of luck on this one.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      Getting to and from work is your expense, not the employer’s. Look at the offer to reimburse the late night before Thanksgiving as resulting from — 1. a special trip, 2. outside of business hours, 3. essentially during a holiday — as a one-time only, special show of gratitude.

    4. theguvnah*

      the 9pm emergency office visit should absolutely have been reimbursed in full. The mid-morning one, too, but I can sort of see it being denied.

      1. TechWorker*

        In the nicest way, why..? I can see if you’re working odd hours and that means the transport is bad then that might be expensible, but in general I would assume that ‘rushing to the office’ is still ‘coming into the office’ and would count as your normal commute. (In the U.K. I don’t think you are allowed to expense that, or rather if the company wanted to there’d be tax owed somewhere).

        1. Natalie*

          A US employer can’t reimburse commuting costs without it being taxable income, but they can reimburse any work related travel that happens between someone’s primary work site and any secondary work sites. For people who have converted to telecommuting for the duration, their home is now their primary work site, not the office. The fact that it’s temporary or involuntary is irrelevant. There’s no requirement to reimburse in the US, outside of California, but it would certainly be allowed and I think you can make a perfectly reasonable argument for it. I know my utility costs have increased more than what I’m saving on commuting, for example.

  70. Success Stories requested*

    My SO has been with his current organization for 10 years, and the last four have been stress-inducing and havoc-wreaking on his health, confidence, recognition of a toxic work environment, etc. He knows he needs to find a different place to work, but his confidence is so shaken by what he has gone through, it’s like he doesn’t think he can be successful anywhere else and is questioning if he should even change fields. Does anyone have any success stories they can share from coming out on the other side?

    1. Rara Avis*

      My husband went through a series of stressful job situations. His confidence was shaken and he struggled with depression as a result. He did change fields, found a job that was not stressful, low pay but no work to bring home at night, loved doing it, fabulous colleagues, a chance to stretch his creative and artistic wings. Being valued and praised for his work went a long way to rebuilding his confidence. Unfortunately his job was a covid casualty (his employer laid off 55% of its workforce) so he’s starting over again, but he feels better about selling his worth to potential employers now.

    2. GreenTea*

      The hardest part is getting started. He might consider reaching out to a recruiter in his field who can at best find him a new job, and at worst help direct him for things to look for in his job search. My brother in law did this twice and had great success!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      It only gets better, it just doesn’t get better FAST. It gets better SLOW.
      My husband had Boss From Hell, this guy was known in the arena as being an A-1 Jerk. My poor husband was so deflated he’d practically crawl home from work each night.
      Finally he was “given” a week off with no pay as punishment for something he did not do. First thing I told him is that we would be fine, don’t worry about the lost pay because we will figure it out. He said he wanted to job hunt. Next I said, “You should do some self-indulgent hobby activity as well as job hunt. Don’t job hunt every day, do something to rebuild YOU.” So he did, he applied for several jobs and every other day he did his Hobby.

      He got two interviews. I started to see him perk up. He got invited back for a drug test and an aptitude test at the one place that would have been the better choice. At this point we were jumping for joy because it was clear to us he would pass both. And he did. I said “Take time to clear your head.” He gave notice to end mid week so he had a couple days to himself and time to organize for the new place. He started to come back to life. He was very worried about fitting in and dressing appropriately- hey, the toxic abuse damage can linger and it can manifest in all sorts of ways. This worry made sense to me. We went out and got intense about clothes, a coat and nice shoes. (Remember we had already lost a weeks pay. The things he bought were another week’s pay, but so very worth it.) Getting all intense like that seemed to help pull his spirits up even more. (He was NOT a clothes horse. Under ordinary situations he did not care about his clothes at all.)

      He went in the first day. That night he said, “The first thing I noticed is that I was dressed just like everyone else. I fit in!! The next thing I noticed is that they are all SMART, I mean really SMART. They are going to be so much fun to work with.”

      They invested in training for him right away, this also boosted his spirits.
      So the coming back to life process was incremental, not all at once. Once he got started job hunting it became a tiny bit easier (get a resume crafted, line up sources for job openings etc.). And he had fun on the interviews because he was a geek and he got to talk with other geeks, this was his idea of fun. These little unexpected joys helped move him along.

      I don’t think one ever forgets a toxic job and that urge to recoil/retreat will always be there to some degree even in the new place. It takes time to eventually figure out that no one at the new place uses words like baseball bats to beat people down. The new job had its ups and downs but no where near what Old Place had problems with, so he was able to ride out the problems at the new place. Even on a bad day he was still grateful to have found this job.

      FWIW, he had been at toxic job for 8 years. I had “nagged” him for three years before he finally left.

  71. Ace in the Hole*

    Those of you with experience documenting ongoing work issues (or CYA documenting in case something goes sour), how do you organize your notes? I have a few things going on I think are really important to document, but I’m not sure how to do it. The separate issues are essentially unrelated. One is a rocky relationship with one of our upper managers who has some inappropriate/concerning behavior. The others are more practical task/policy related things.

    Keeping everything in one notebook so it’s just strict chronological order would be simplest for me, but I’m not sure if having several unrelated topics documented in the same log would be a problem somehow. This is my first time trying to build serious documentation for anything work-related, I’d appreciate some tips!

    1. Academic Librarian too*

      I emailed all documentation to myself ccing my home email. This way I had contemporaneous documentation that was date and time stamped.
      At the end of each day I organized these emails in a folder Employee X PIP. Under that folder was one with each issue- lateness, lying, unprofessional behavior/communication, incomplete work, etc.
      At the end of each week I compiled a report of issues and how I handed them-
      Every week, I had a one on one with the employee and reviewed the issues. Post meeting I recapped and sent that email to the employee and to myself.

    2. RagingADHD*

      I would either use email like A.L. above, or if using a notebook keep them chronological and use colored page flags to mark the different issues.

      1. JanetM*

        Or leave blank pages at the beginning for an index:

        Topic 1 — 1, 14, 36
        Topic 2 — 3, 7, 14, 50
        .
        .
        .

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’ve used email. I’d be careful about mixing your work and personal email, depending on the nature of your work, but you want a timestamped record of things and you want evidence of clear communication between you and whomever is having an issue. Now, if you’re dealing with harassments or something like that, then setting up a second free email and forwarding things to it might not be a bad idea, so you have a non-work paper trail that also isn’t your usual personal account.

      1. Ace in the Hole*

        I’ve thought about email, but the guy whose behavior I’m documenting also has access to my work email… and there are things I really don’t want him to know I’m keeping notes on or reporting because of retaliation potential.

        1. NACSACJACK*

          A couple of thoughts/items to know: A) Don’t keep anything on your work computer that isnt copied elsewhere. They own it. They can wipe it. If you want an electronic copy, type it on your personal computer in the evenings or a quick note into your personal phone in the moment. B) Do you have a planner like a Franklin Planner or a notebook or a calendar? Make sure you purchase it rather than the company. If they buy it , they own it and everything written in it. If you buy it, it can still be subpoenaed, but only those portions related to the company. Everything else can be redacted or considered private information.

          Good luck.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I’d go by date, because that will be the most important point in organizing and explaining to outsiders.
      Then I would do subtopics for each date.

      Monday Jan 25
      Concerning Behavior
      [Paragraph about what happened with the manager today.]

      Task A issue
      [Paragraph about what happened with Task A today.]

      Policy X issue
      [Paragraph describing the next step in this story about policy x.]

      You can change the titles to read “Task B issue” or “Policy Y issue” so you can follow the titles of the paragraphs to trace one particular thing. If you put it in Word, think about what would work in a search and label accordingly.

      One thing I would caution you about. We have a finite amount of available time. Is documenting the best use of your time OR is job hunting a better use? I’d argue unless you felt you were being set up for jail time, job hunting is probably the better choice.

      1. Ace in the Hole*

        That’s a good system, thanks.

        Documenting only takes a few minutes a day, so I don’t see it as a waste of time. I generally like my job, and don’t want to leave. Plus documenting ongoing issues is a necessary step in advocating for change. I have a lot of influence in my organization, so I feel I have a responsibility to look out for my more vulnerable coworkers.

        The policy things are related to safety and regulatory compliance… so I woudn’t say I’m being deliberately set up for anything, but it’s certainly possible for it to come up in court if something went wrong. This kind of thing doesn’t come up often… it’s not an every day thing or even an every month thing.

  72. A Secret*

    I’d love to hear from anyone who took an extended break (~a year or more) from the workforce. When COVID is over, I’d love to take an extended break to travel. However, I’m fairly new in my professional career, and more of a generalist than have developed niche skills. My general industry is growing, but my last job search was harder than I expected. I felt like I wasn’t qualified enough for the higher level jobs but overqualified for entry level.

    Has anyone done something similar? How did you explain the gap and why you were now returning to the workforce? How hard was it to find a job? I’ve heard a lot of horror stories about how hard it is for moms to re-enter the workforce, so I have a lot of anxiety about voluntarily taking a work gap and then not being able to return on the schedule I want/would need to financially. However, the idea of working for 40 years straight makes me unspeakably depressed (I am working toward early retirement, but that’s a very long term goal).

    1. Cedrus Libani*

      I took a year off after grad school. The truth was, I was too burned out to work in my field, and I had enough savings to not need a survival job. I soft-pedaled the mental health aspect and went with the opportunity angle – I’d never have freedom like that again, I had some money saved, so I spent a year in early retirement. It was great, I had my fun, and now I’m refreshed and want to get back to work.

      Didn’t have much trouble. It’s not unheard of. I think an actual majority of my software engineer friends have quit job(s) with nothing lined up, so they could travel and/or noodle on personal projects. I’m in an adjacent field where it’s less common, but even here, a co-worker left to become “fun-employed” early this year…fortunately her plans didn’t involve travel, she’s an artist and planned to focus on her art.

      Should be noted that this works better when your skills are in high demand. And when you haven’t been gone for long enough that there’s serious concern your skills have gone stale. If that’s not you, but it could be in an acceptable time frame, maybe consider staying until your resume can support you better.

    2. D3*

      I hate to say it, because it totally sucks that our society is like this, but an extended break to travel the world probably won’t hurt you the way a break to raise kids will. One is cool, and can be spun as a plus. The other is “sat on a couch and ate bon-bons and let skills die”
      (Yes, I absolutely KNOW that SAH parenting isn’t like that. I’m just saying it is often treated like that when SAH parents try to enter the work force. It’s a very real bias!)

    3. Ali G*

      I took a year off late 2017-2018 after ~15 years working, so not quite the same. I didn’t have much trouble finding a job, but I am in a pretty niche industry and I had a good reputation and longevity before taking a break.
      I do think most people understand. I basically told the truth: I needed an break to figure out my next steps, and luckily i was in a position to to be able to do that. I also couched it as the break really helped me focus on what i was looking for in my next position and how this job fits into that, yadda, yadda, yadda. Most people were like “wow i wish i could do that!”
      It will be harder at the beginning of your career if you don’t have a strong track record. You may not be able to pick back up where you left off if you don’t have really strong, proven skills to fall back on.
      That being said, do it. You will almost never regret it :)

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I was deliberately out of work from May 2012 to January 2014 (age 31-33), during which I moved cross country and traveled both domestically and internationally. Before that window, I had been in my career field for 8 years. Getting back in was totally effortless – I got a call from a temp agency, I don’t even know where he got my resume but asked me to cover a maternity leave for the biggest health care org in the state. (I’m in medical finance administration.) At the end, they hired me on permanently and I’ve since been promoted twice, going on seven years now. So I frankly got super lucky. I wasn’t actually planning to start looking for another couple months when the dude called me, and on my first day I wasn’t entirely sure that the job was even legit, hah.

  73. Jennifer*

    Question about the weird situation I’m in. I have been working as a contractor for about six months. In early January I got an email from the agency I work for letting me know that the assignment was going to be coming to an end at the end of February. A couple weeks later I started sending my resume out in the hopes of getting something new lined up. I was expecting the process to take a couple months. However, I got an interview right away with a company I wanted to work with, which was followed by a second interview, and an offer a little while later. That never happens to me.

    I gave a two week notice to the agency and let them know I would be starting a new job a little before the scheduled end date of the assignment. They were gracious and let me know they enjoyed working with me and asked me to call them if I needed help finding work in the future. Then the company where I’ve been assigned tried to get me to stay. I asked if it would be a permanent job or a longer assignment, and they said it would still be through the temp agency but with a long term goal of permanency. I decided to stick with the offer I’d already accepted for a lot of reasons but mostly because I think it would be wrong to back out after I’ve already accepted an offer unless something really egregious had happened.

    I just don’t get why the company gave the agency an end date if they wanted to keep me longer. I would have been happy to stay had I known. With unemployment being the way it is now, I didn’t want to wait to start looking for another job.

    Is it ever okay to back out of an offer you’ve accepted? Should I have handled this differently?

    1. James*

      “I just don’t get why the company gave the agency an end date if they wanted to keep me longer.”

      I’ve seen that happen when there’s a contract coming to an end, but the agency makes it clear that they want a particular employee to stick around. I’ve seen contracts written such that if Company A wins the contract instead of Company B, that key employee transfers letterhead from Company B to Company A. No idea why the agency doesn’t just hire the person.

      That said, you weren’t informed that this was the position you were in, so you had no reason to expect it to be otherwise. What happened was the company waited to make an offer until after you accepted another. That’s on them, and is bad planning on their part. I think you’d have been fine either way, but there’s certainly nothing wrong with going with the offer you accepted. It’s one of the risks inherent in working with contractor.

  74. Have another...*

    So if you are on an online work meeting and one of the participants sounds drunk (slurring, not making sense, looks like they got beat up by a bus etc.) This person was at home with their significant other so if it was a medical issue it would have been seen by their family. Do you mute them? Accidentally/on purpose kick them off? Or watch the show?

    1. A Secret*

      I would probably be very concerned about them, especially if they were one of my coworkers! What you’re describing could be someone in an abusive environment. If I was the person leading the meeting, I would definitely interject and try to redirect the conversation away from them, but if you’re just a participant, I don’t think there’s anything you can do aside from following up offline with the person to politely check that they’re okay! I think “watching the show” is cruel and makes yourself out to be a helpless bystander in a situation where you have plenty of recourse available.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Hmm… This one is tough. I can’t tell from your description if there’s literal bruises or if they just look disheveled. I honestly have no clear idea how I’d handle this. I did once have a student come into work high as a kite and I had to ask them to leave and take a sick day. I couldn’t prove they were high, but… I’ve been around enough stoned people to read the signs. I think I would reach out and check in to make sure they are okay and then see how it goes from there. It might be nothing. It might be something. It’s just hard to know if you don’t ask.

    3. Annie Moose*

      Depends on my role in the meeting and relationship with the person! If it was just an informal team meeting, and everybody’s on the same level, I’d probably be like, “Joe, are you okay?” If it was a more formal meeting, I might privately message him and ask the same thing. If I was actually running the meeting I would probably tell him (privately) “I’m going to have to mute you, you aren’t making a lot of sense right now” or something like that. Or generally redirect the conversation so someone else is speaking instead.

      But if it’s something where I’m not in charge of the meeting and I’m more of an audience member than a participant… I don’t think there’s much I could do in the meeting itself.

    4. PollyQ*

      I’m not sure what you mean by “looks like they got beat up by a bus,” but the other two issues could be symptoms of someone having a stroke. And just because the significant other is in the home with them doesn’t mean that they’ve seen their partner in several hours, so you can’t assume that they’d know about it. So yes, I would say something directly to the person, perhaps in a private text chat or by opening a quick breakout zoom session.

      IDK how exactly you determine what the underlying cause is in a chat, though. Possibly if you said something like, “You don’t seem well, and I’m worried that you’re showing signs of a stroke,” they might fess up to actually being drunk or high. And if they didn’t, or didn’t seem to understand what you were saying, it would be time to call the emergency contact.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Oh my yes! Remember the three tests for a stroke, smile, raise both hands above your head and say a simple sentence. A friend had a stroke a while ago and they could not do any of these things. And yeah they sounded worse than drunk, their words were unintelligible, but they were clearly trying to answer me each time I spoke to them.
        Other illnesses can appear as drunkenness also. Don’t be afraid to say, “Are you alright?” Or, “Is someone there with you?”

  75. Late Bloomer*

    In a flurry of job applications, I was interviewed for and almost immediately offered work at a health-care start-up that’s being around/expanding for 6 years. Right now, I’m making 38k with good benefits, this would be 45k with less great benefits. However, it could be a needed career switch for me and there’s room to grow. I feel so nervous about accepting. I still have applications out to higher-paying jobs (I’d like to make 50-60k, which I think is reasonable for my experience/skills/dedication/degrees) but no other offers. This is still the most I’ll have ever made but I think I’ve been underpaid my whole life.

    Pros:
    – More take-home pay (I can fully fund my IRA and could use the extra in save/invest on my own.)
    – I’ve been told they’ll be offering healthcare in Q2 of this year (asked for more info about the plan)
    – Much more interesting work than my current job and possibly better job security (the current job is events-based and struggling, this company has seen an increase in patients)
    – Room to grow which my current job doesn’t have
    – That offer of the salary increase

    Pro and con:
    – lots and lots and lots of work (they talked about avoiding burnout in the interview so at least they are aware)
    – fast-paced and constantly changing environment (I want that sweet job security but that’s probably a pipe dream in this day and age)

    Cons:
    – start-up environment with not a lot of money to offer and no written promise as of yet about a salary increase
    – evidence-based but somewhat “fringe” medicine (it involves the off label use of a common drug that many people associate with the party scene. I believe in the mission and they are very serious and legit, but I wonder if it might seem too ‘out there’ to future employers, especially as I would like to work in city or state government someday)
    – no retirement plan. I’m millennial-level nervous about retirement and would highly prefer a pension/401k with a match.

    1. GreenTea*

      Personally I would be nervous about the no retirement plan & the healthcare not yet fully set up. I’m a millennial too and these are top priorities in my job search – but of course you need to weight the benefits (which it looks like you’re already doing). Also, right now I would be a little nervous in a startup with less stability.

    2. A Secret*

      You can’t really hold off accepting because of the applications you have elsewhere. The lack of health benefits would concern me, despite the higher salary. But if you want to switch careers to this area, it seems like a no-brainer to accept it. Can you ask more questions about the hours that would be expected for your role? (It would be a shame to make more money on paper but make less per hour worked, IMO, but you may want to weigh the room for growth/industry change more than that). Do you know what the general path to grow within the company would look like in terms of role/pay/hours?

      If you can invest on your own and have an IRA, I wouldn’t worry too much about the 401k (I don’t know any employers in the US still offering pensions). 401k don’t offer as many tax benefits as the IRA (especially when you’re in a lower tax bracket). Typically the match is only 3-5%, and both places where I worked, it took years to vest, so that won’t make that much of a difference in your overall compensation.

      1. Late Bloomer*

        I’m looking at state/city government jobs, which still offer pensions (there’s a few other non-gov public service jobs I applied for that offer them in addition to 401ks). I currently have fully paid for health/dental insurance and a retirement plan with paused matching.

        I’m not necessarily looking to get into health-care specifically but this would be an Executive Assistant position that could end up paying more or that could grant transferable skills for a higher paying job.

        I have asked about hours. Still waiting to hear back.

        1. WellRed*

          If you’re used to fully paid health/dental I think you may be in for sticker shock when the new company finally rolls out health benefits (if indeed it does). Also, the higher salary is actually slightly less so over the old salary once you take into consideration you are not getting the value of benefits for an entire quarter.

          1. Late Bloomer*

            They are saying it’s 40 hours a week and have raised the offer to 50k.

            I’m still so torn.

    3. WellRed*

      That lack of benefits until Q2 would have me running for the door! The rest of it doesn’t sound much better.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      So, you were told they are offering healthcare in Q2, but there’s not guarantee they are going to have healthcare in Q2. Additionally, there’s no retirement plan. Generally, for budget purposes, a staff person costs 50% more than their base salary due to benefits. That’s not perfect math, but it tends to work. Based on your description, it doesn’t appear you are getting any benefits. So, your 45K is actually less than your 38K with benefits. This seems like a super bad deal. I’d trust your gut. It’s telling you something and I’d listen to it. I can’t tell you the right choice, but I can tell you I have never regretted turning down money for a good benefits package.

      1. Late Bloomer*

        They’ve raised the offer to 50k. They offer dental, vision and a bunch of random stuff through an outside HR company.

        My gut is screaming.

          1. Late Bloomer*

            That this is a bad idea.

            I turned down the job. There were too many red flags in addition to the no health insurance/no retirement plan. The money was good and it temporarily distracted me from the fact that there were things during the interview that made me very wary (like one interviewer insisting on shaking hands and not wearing a mask…in a health clinic).

            I have a job with good benefits during a global pandemic. I think I need to be grateful for that.

    5. Littorally*

      So, you say “less great” benefits, but I’m not actually seeing any benefits offered. No healthcare now but maybe they’ll have a healthcare plan in Q2? I am highly skeptical. And the lack of a 401k combined with a mediocre salary compared with your goal is something I would find highly concerning.

      Will the $7k pay bump cover both fully funding your IRA and the cost of buying healthcare through the exchanges? I’m skeptical. I don’t know how much you’re funding your IRA now but that pay difference is barely more than current allowable IRA contributions.

      Personally, I would not take that job unless you’re desperate. Funding your retirement is huge, and health coverage is huge.

      1. Late Bloomer*

        They offer dental, vision, FSA and some random stuff through an outside HR. They also increased the offer to 50k.

        I’m funding my IRA close to 100% now. All extra money goes into it.

        1. Littorally*

          Honestly, those are weak benefits compared with 401k/healthcare. Sit down and look at what buying healthcare through the exchanges would cost you. Research if you can open an individual 401k (rare, a pain in the butt, but possible) to make up for the contributions you can’t make through an employer plan.

          38 to 50k is a lot! But if you’re already funding your IRA close to 100%, then a bump to funding it at 100% doesn’t nearly make up for losing the ability to put away an extra several percent of your salary via a 401k and get a match.

    6. voluptuousfire*

      I think you should take it. It’s more money, you can start your own 401k (chances are they may not have matching for it for a while, so that’s something to consider) and worst-case get an ACA health plan to start.

      Even with self-funding a 401k and the ACA healthcare, I think it’s worth it. Worst case you’re looking in 6-12 months, which it sounds like you’ll still be doing in your current role. Medium case you cut out after a few weeks for one of the higher-paying roles and don’t put this on your resume. Best case it works out well.

      1. voluptuousfire*

        But if your gut is screaming “NO!” to this role, don’t take it. Trust that intuition!

      2. Late Bloomer*

        I’m unsure how I could start my own 401k as I’m not self-employed. Even if I were to create a side business, I could only put money earned from that business into it, not leftover savings from this main job.

    7. RagingADHD*

      Make sure you’re looking at total compensation – and accounting for pretax vs post-tax dollars – so you can compare. A $7k increase in gross pay isn’t going to go as far if you wind up having to buy health insurance on the exchange and fund your IRA with post-tax money.

      I would want a written commitment that either health insurance or a pay increase to cover the difference would happen in Q2. If they aren’t willing to put it in writing, they shouldn’t bring it up.

      1. Late Bloomer*

        It’s 50k now. I’ve also considered asking for a promise of a pay increase to cover insurance if it doesn’t happen.

    8. Paris Geller*

      I would be wary of this, even with the bump to 50k you’ve mentioned in other comments. For one, they can tell you they’re offering healthcare in Q2, but what if it doesn’t come through? Also, even if it does, how much will you be paying for your premiums?

      You mention lots and lots of work. . . are you expected to work more than 40 hours a week? Again, I see in the comments they say it’s 40/week, but an organization that talks about lots and lots of work and avoiding burnout, I think you’re going to be working a lot of overtime. If this job is salaried, which I’m assuming, what will you actually be making per hour? Will it be more than your 38k per hour rate?

      And the no retirement plan is a big one! I know you mentioned you’ll fund & save on your own, but that matching is a benefit that you’ll be missing. How much is your current organization matching or contributing, because you should definitely add that to your current salary when figuring out if this job is really better than your current work.

      1. Late Bloomer*

        My current org isn’t matching or contributing due to COVID-19. I have a 403(b). I don’t know what they usually contribute as it’s been paused since I started.

  76. Fluffernutter*

    Any recommendations on how to professionally keep warm in the office? I typically wear a sweater AND a fleece jacket (we have a business casual dress code) on top indoors cause I’m always that cold. I’d like to look more professional since I’m getting older and would like more responsibility at work. I see other women walking around in a sheer blouse or blazer+blouse but I’m never warm enough with that.

    Also, any recommendations on women’s work shoes that aren’t flats or heels?

    1. Jaded Millenial*

      Silk long underwear as your base layer can help a lot. Well-fitting wool blazers are quite warm and polished looking. Do you like the look of silk scarfs? I find keeping my neck covered is the key to feeling warm. Even a light scarf can help. I wear Rockport boots for work in the cooler seasons.

    2. Imaginary Number*

      Add a warm scarf to a blazer/blouse combo.

      Sweater jacket or leather jacket (or vegan alternative) in lieu of a standard blazer.

      Alternative shoes: Boots. Leather or a good-quality vegan alternative. As a bonus, they’ll probably keep your feet warmer than most dress hoes.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        My desk is in a converted warehouse and that cement floor keeps everything cool. You might be able to find faux-fur lined boots, I have several pairs and they are really cozy. I also have a wool lap blanket that has helped a lot. And scarves and layers, definitely.

    3. Anon for this*

      I have Raynaud’s and understand this! I went to M&S (in the UK) and bought some very warm layers, which I wear under everything except for my bra. It’s the only way I’m comfortable in a blouse or a long-sleeved dress.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      I second those who say silk long underwear, also L.L. Bean makes some nice looking lined pants- basically trousers lined in fleece (I live near the artic circle and live in these come winter). For tops, I like sweater coats or wool blazers, which (while annoyingly dry clean only) are toasty warm. Also, I like Clarks shoes. They are nice looking and have low heels. Wedges are a nice choice, if you’re looking for some lift and don’t want a heel.

    5. Annie Moose*

      Third on base layers. Even if you’re just layering a tank/camisole under shirts, it can help–but something like a thermal or silk top would be even warmer.

      For sweaters, if you aren’t already, you could try wool or cashmere sweaters–they can be a lot warmer than other fabric types.

    6. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I like silk and wool for warmth. Silk long underwear as previously mentioned, silk scarves, or I’ll layer a silk button down shirt either over a T-shirt or under a sweater (or both). Wool or wool-blend trousers and skirts, either lined or over a slip. (Wool stretches, and a lining/slip will make sure you don’t walk around with a sagging imprint of your backside.) Wool or cashmere sweaters. Wool blazers. Wool socks (which will go nicely with the boots other commenters are suggesting).

      Also, anything that covers your pulse points: I’ll usually wear some sort of scarf or shawlette in the winter (I knit, so I have a variety in various wool blends) which helps a surprising amount. Fingerless gloves keep your wrists covered, while still letting you type. You can always take them off for meetings.

      (Can you tell I’m the one who’s always cold in the office?)

    7. Sleepy*

      I keep a warm indoor wrap, kind of like a shawl, at work. Our business is so casual that it always makes me look way more dressed up than everyone else.

    8. PollyQ*

      Many offices have rules against space heaters (for the good reason that they’re fire hazards), but it’s still worth asking if yours is one that would allow it. Some of them are quite compact and can be directed at your feet or hands, if they’re especially prone to feeling cold.

      1. Chaordic One*

        There are several kinds of electric floor mats that are great to have under your desk. I find space heaters aim the heat at my shins and my feet are still cold. (I’ve had co-workers who used electric heating pads, electric blankets, and one even used a heated electric pet bed.)

        I’ve heard of people who had heated computer keyboards and mice, and heated mouse pads, but all I can seem to find are heated mats to put on your desk under your keyboard and mouse.

    9. DistantAudacity*

      I love my Calida silk/wool blend base layer – wool is the best. Also I have some knee-high thin wool socks. Or, the very least – nylon tights under my trousers. If you wear skirts, a layer of wool boxer shorts (over my undies) in addition to whatever thights works wonders!

      If it’s really chilly, I’ll wear a double wool layer, e.g like a nice thin wool jumper over the base.

      Basically, keeping your core warm is key.

      1. DistantAudacity*

        Oh, and if you wear skirts: wear a double layer of tights!

        H&M do these really snuggly fleece-lined black tights, and I will use them with a somewhat nicer pair of opaque tights on top (in whatever colour I am using). With the wooly boxers!

    10. Chaordic One*

      Whatever kind of shoes you wear, you should consider purchasing some thermal insoles to put in them. They will insulate your feet from cold floors and reflect some of your body heat back to you.

  77. D3*

    Annual evaluation time at my company. This year, my boss sent me the self evaluation to fill out. Only, she’d already added answers, LOL. Including my “goals for 2021” already written.
    I hate filling those out, and what she wrote is fine. The goals are probably about what I would have come up with anyway.
    But it’s just so bizarre she would fill out my “self evaluation” for me!

  78. Bob's Your Uncle*

    I really love my job, but I my salary is waaay below average (I was desperate when I first started, two years ago) and every month I struggle to make ends meet. Recently, a former coworker (who also left because she was unhappy with our compensation) referred me to her company, that a had an opening, and I got a call for an interview. I received a really good feedbck from the interviewer, who flat out told me I’m a strong candidate. The best part: they’re offering me nearly twice what I make now, and great benefits.
    Still, I’m unsure: should I give up my happy, low paying job for something I’m not sure I’ll enjoy, but that will definitely improve my living conditions?

    1. WellRed*

      Make a list of pros and cons comparing the two to see if you’d be waaaaay unhappy at new job or if it’s mostly equivalent. And absolutely quiz the former coworker on the environment, etc.

    2. TGIF!*

      Unless you have some reason to not trust your former coworker, then Yes.

      Definitely take the new job!

    3. soontobephd*

      Flip a coin and then see how you feel about the results.
      If ‘take the new job’ is heads and you flip heads and feel relieved… then you’ll know it’s a good choice.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      Hmmm…I’d make a pro cons list and then I’d imagine you hadn’t been offered the job. Would you have been disappointed? Relieved? New jobs are scary, but unless there’s some red flags, I’d not decline the job just because it’s a bit scary.

    5. Littorally*

      Unless you have some red flags tripping about the new position, take it! The relief of financial security will do a whole heck of a lot to ease your mind, probably well more than a low-paying but happy job can.

      It’s not to say you’ll never have regrets. You might look back at the old job fondly. But enough money to make ends meet and to put some in savings can change your life.

    6. PollyQ*

      Are you getting a bad vibe about the new job and/or the work you’d be doing, or is it mostly fear of the unknown? If it’s mostly the latter, I’d take the new job. Doubling your salary can make a big difference in your quality of life in years to come, and those great benefits have a real dollar impact, too.

    7. RagingADHD*

      Yes.

      Yes you should.

      Unless the new place is actively toxic (which surely your friend would have mentioned), being free of daily struggle/worry about basic needs goes a LONG way toward job satisfaction and overall life satisfaction.

      Knowing that your skill and experience are valued, and you’re good at your job, increase job satisfaction.

      Also, being chronically underpaid doesn’t happen in isolation, because people who hire desperate candidates at below-market wages are exploitive. You will likely discover that you were being covertly exploited in a lot of ways.

    8. Natalie*

      I would take the new job, absent some significant, specific reason to avoid it. Barely keeping your head above water is incredibly stressful, in ways you might not even notice until it’s gone. Nearly twice as much money and good benefits is going to do so much to increase your overall happiness, that’s it’s worth paying for with in some (temporary) transition stress, or the possibility that you’ll like the new job some small percentage less than the old job.

    9. Bex*

      YES!! Doubling your salary is life-changing money. And the great benefits just make it even sweeter. You’ll be making enough that you can save up an emergency fund which is even better for financial security that a low paying job.

  79. kimtherearepeoplethataredying*

    so in the grand scheme of all things COVID I know this is very small potatoes. I just got engaged (yay!) and am job hunting and have secured some video interviews (double yay!). Alison has said not to take your ring off for interviews but this is a family heirloom that is a bit big and very noticeable and I’m wondering if it falls more in to the category of no flashy designer duds while interviewing so you don’t give the impression you don’t need to work (I very much do!). Thoughts?

    1. GreenTea*

      I wouldn’t worry about it! Or if you are really worried, can you turn it so the band just shows on the outside of your hand?

    2. WellRed*

      Keep it on. Even if it’s noticeable (and if you wave your hands around that much, maybe tone it down, ring or not), I think that thinking is old fashioned, along the lines of “pay the man more, he has family to support”
      Congratulations!

    3. Ali G*

      I have 2 heirloom (and flashy) rings I wear (or did) on a daily basis. I did also worry about it in interviews, especially when I was interviewing at a non-profit. I still wore them. I think it’s pretty obvious they are “special” and not something I just spent a few K on for funsies. One is also my engagement ring.

    4. Haha Lala*

      Since you say it’s big and you haven’t been wearing it all that long, I’d say the only reason not to wear it would be if you think you’ll be self conscious or fidgeting with it too much. When I first got engaged I know I played with my ring all the time, and I think that could be distracting during an interview, to both you and the interviewer.
      But if you don’t think that’s an issue for you, then wear it proudly!
      Congrats on the engagement and the interviews!

      1. kimtherearepeoplethataredying*

        yes I definitely have this problem! Can’t stop twisting it so that is a separate (but good!) reason to leave it off. I should’ve been more clear it fits like a glove but the stone is big (somewhere north of three carats)

        thank you!!

  80. Parenthetically*

    What would you do?

    My husband had a potential Covid exposure at work last week. The Covid response person, HR, and his grandboss all responded really well and acted quickly. He got tested and quarantined per the public health guidance he was given and per the Covid response person and HR (and the leave he had to take to do that was paid). But his immediate boss texted him the day he was tested to say, “You technically don’t have to come in if you don’t want to, but if you want to come in, we have work for you to do and it’s fine with me if you do.” Husband obviously followed public health guidelines and remained quarantined until he received his negative test.

    Would you report Immediate Supervisor if it were you? And if so to whom?

    1. WellRed*

      Either the CR person or HR (maybe both on same email), but frame it as trying to clarify the rules. “I quarantined per guidelines but Boss reached out to me about coming in…”

    2. Allypopx*

      It’s ultimately up to your husband and his own cost/benefit analysis when it comes to office politics, but I’d tell the covid response person at the very least. Possibly also HR.

      1. RagingADHD*

        Yeah, the way the question is worded, it’s unclear whether it means what would I do as the employee, or what would I do as the spouse.

        As the spouse, I’d just grit my teeth because there is no appropriate move to make.

        As the employee, I’d consider reporting – but it might not be worth the blowback depending on internal politics.

    3. Annie Moose*

      Eh. Are there other employees under his boss? If so, and he thinks they might get this kind of offer too, then I’d lean toward reporting it, but if it was just a one-off with him–and the boss didn’t hassle him about declining–then I personally would chalk it up to a very thoughtless text and let it lie unless the boss has other bad covid-related behavior going on.

      1. Parenthetically*

        Yes, Immediate Boss has about 20 people reporting directly to him. He has an enclosed office, comes in every day, and doesn’t wear a mask in the office.

        1. Ace in the Hole*

          I really hope he reports all of this to the covid response person and HR. It’s a huge safety issue. If they don’t get reports, they won’t know it’s going on.

  81. GreenTea*

    Some interview advice needed…I was laid off about 9 months ago (in a contract role) but recently was contacted by one of my managers that they need someone with my skill set to come back on the team as a full time employee. The position is very similar to what I did before, with just a more narrow focus on a specific function. I am doing a panel interview this afternoon with two managers I worked with regularly, as well as a manager from an adjacent department. I’m looking forward to it as I already know all three interviewers, but I’m a little stressed about questions to ask at the end of the interview. I feel like I know the position and company fairly well. Has anyone had experience with this? Or ideas for questions to ask?

    1. Dasein9*

      Break a leg!

      In this case, the usual questions might not apply but you might want to ask about whether those things have changed since your last time with the company. If the company used to provide 20 PTO days/year and now it’s 15 or 25, you’ll want to know. The pandemic might give a perfect way to frame this, as in “A lot has happened since I last worked here and I’m wondering what changes may have come about as a result.”

    2. irene adler*

      I would like to know what has changed that they are now able to offer full time employment.
      Or, what’s this position going to look like, say 4-5 years from now?
      Ask them (if they haven’t already told you) how this job will be different from your last job there. IOW this is a full time position. Previously you were contract. Anything different you should know? Will there be different/more expectations of you as a full-timer that were not there as a contract worker?
      Is this for the same manager? If not, might ask about their management style, preferred communication avenues, expectations for the first 6 months.
      There’s always: what differentiated the good employees, from the great employees, who held this position?

  82. Renee Remains the Same*

    A quick gut check for the commentariat. I have a direct report. Generally, nice guy. Always positive, team player, he’s good at one very important thing and not so good at other things. I don’t really have fire power, so it is, what it is. His communication style is unique and I find he processes information differently, which has resulted in some confusing moments. This also means, I sometimes have a hard time reading him.

    Recently, the two of us received an inquiry from a colleague. I gave the colleague some initial advice. My direct report then followed up on that email to… back me up? He told our colleague he agreed with me and reiterated what I said. In the past he has also told me advice I’ve given was a “good call” or that he agrees with what I’ve said. I’m sure on some level he feels like this provides confirmation that he’s heard what I’ve said. But as a woman, it also feels chauvinistic or – to give him the benefit of the doubt -maybe he’s just being a monumental suck up. Either way, I find it irksome and I’m not a fan of it. So, I’m just curious how others might interpret the situation.

    1. Allypopx*

      Ohhh this raises my hackles just reading it. I agree with your read – suck up might even be too generous. It feels like a power play. Maybe not a conscious one, but definitely elbowing in on your territory.

    2. Littorally*

      Agreed with Allypopx; in fact, I vaguely recall we’ve had letters along those lines to Alison, where a subordinate was talking to his manager in a similar way — “good job, good catch” that kind of thing.

      Ultimately, I would read it as a power play unless he has comparable difficulties in correct social behavior that don’t involve propping up his expertise as compared to women. And even if this is genuine social awkwardness, you still have plenty of standing to tell him to stop. You are his boss! Coming in and reiterating what you say like that is not necessary, and once you have handled something, he doesn’t need to weigh in.

      If he might have something valuable that you would be willing to have him add in such a situation, you can tell him that he should only follow up if he’s adding new information to the conversation. But you’d also be justified in just telling him that once you’ve responded to an external inquiry, he just shouldn’t.

      1. Renee Remains the Same*

        It’s hard to say to be honest. It truly could be that he’s socially awkward and doesn’t see that this sort of response is redundant and unnecessary. He responds to every single email. Some of it is confirmation that he’s seen it, I think sometimes it’s a matter of overcompensating for insecurity about not knowing the answer (so he uses my response to prop his up… something I used to do in college when I didn’t read something for class, borrowing a classmate’s insight and emphasizing certain points). I would have less of a problem with that if it added some value to the communication, but it’s almost like he’s co-opting my thoughts and making them his. Except I don’t think he’s actually strategic enough to realize that’s what he’s doing. And that is the circle of madness I find myself in regularly.

        1. Littorally*

          Then give yourself permission to stop second-guessing. It really doesn’t matter if he’s feeling insecure or someone has told him he needs to respond to every email he receives! If you have given a response, he should not also respond. If he’s genuinely bad with social cues, give him that flat rule and tell him to ask you privately if he feels like he has a strong reason to break it, and not to reply to the external until you give permission (ie, “I think there’s this whole extra element that I want to add to the discussion.”)

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      Super (super) annoying. Allison had a letter than was very similar and the advice was to tell him to cut it out.

    4. Choggy*

      Yeah, I would say his response would be fine if he actually added some additional, useful, relevant information, but maybe he felt like he needed to email back *something/anything* to make sure he was responding at all? I’m curious, what would you have wanted him to write if he had nothing more to add? I think you are right about him confirming he’s heard/read what you’ve said, but you’ll have to ask him about his responses to get a good handle where he’s coming from.

        1. Choggy*

          Well, you might need to let him know that if he does not quite get that’s it’s appropriate to do so. Or, if he does need to respond, and has nothing to add, ask him to write that.

    5. RagingADHD*

      It definitely makes him sound like a “try-hard,” but what’s underlying that is impossible to tell.

      Just telling him to cut it out is the right way to go.

  83. soontobephd*

    What are folks recommendations for minimalistic, affordable, and high quality work wear?

    I’m trying to build a capsule wardrobe. My field is pretty business casual (work with children, healthcare adjacent). I tried buying a few JCrew items (I love the style) but the sweaters got holes in them after a few weeks.

    1. Dasein9*

      I find that Lands End stuff wears quite well. It’s fairly boring, but that can always be dressed up. They’re always having a sale. Sometimes it’s 40% off and sometimes as much as 60% off.

    2. Health Policy Wonk (in training)*

      Pre-pandemic, I used to thrift a lot. The office was in an affluent part of town, so I would stop by the thrift stores and often found really good designer clothing for the same price I would spend at JCrew. I could justify buying one item (e.g. a blazer or black work dress) and laying it with other things in my wardrobe from college.

      I also recommend Everlane. I like their jumpsuit, and their work pants. Their jeans were also perfect for our jean Fridays.

    3. Annie Moose*

      Slightly unhelpful comment, I know :P

      BUT I found when I was building my work wardrobe (it was a capsule wardrobe not for fashion reasons, but for “I’m straight out of college” reasons ;)), the way I cared for clothing made a huge difference in keeping them in good shape, even when I bought relatively inexpensive items from, say, Banana Republic Factory. That meant always washing things in cold water, letting them air dry rather than using a dryer, using tanks/camisoles/undershirts to make outer layers stay nice longer (with the bonus of not having to wash them as often–which even in cold water is hard on stuff), things like that.

      Which is to say, you may be able to stretch even very cheap items through careful washing and storage.

        1. Juneybug*

          Annie Moose – great advice! I too, noticed that my less expensive (cheap) work clothes lasted longer with careful care.
          I would suggest using mesh laundry bags for delicate stuff like sweaters, scarves, etc.
          Another thing that worked for me was I got rid of my metal hangers and went with matching plastic hangers. My closet looks nice and I notice less snags and misshaped clothing. The plastic kind at Walmart worked great. Just make sure the plastic doesn’t have sharp edges or areas that could snag your clothes.

  84. Spaceball One*

    I have a job I love and am good at, but I also have a potential opportunity coming my way. It’s not here quite yet, and if it doesn’t come through that’s OK, but I am trying to mentally weigh the options in the event I do end up with an offer.

    Here is my conundrum: I really do love my job and where I work. I have been in this role for about 20 years and despite the usual kerfuffles and drama that arise in a workplace, it is an amazing place to work in a really unique industry. HOWEVER. In the past few years, the job has narrowed, and a lot of the work I used to have more of a stake in has been assigned to others. It’s a contract environment, so it’s not like they just took my work and gave it to someone else. I consistently get great feedback, but at a higher level, the scope of my work has been narrowed. I also worry that the longer I stay there, the more people are going to see me as someone who is not in demand, not capable of more, just sort of there being dependable, like the office furniture.

    So even though my pay and benefits are amazing, and my work environment feels like home, I do have long-term career concerns. There is really nowhere else to progress in my current role. This new opportunity, while not a sure thing yet, would be a similar type of work in a different part of the same industry I am currently in. I would be removed from some of the coolest parts of my current job, but I also would have a lot more schedule flexibility and freedom. It would be a permanent work from home role, so there is no commute to factor in.

    Obviously, if a new offer came along and the pay or benefits were less than I have now, I would probably bypass it. But otherwise, I am very tempted to take it, just for the change of pace and to challenge myself. But it’s a scary thought, leaving a job I really do love (but that, admittedly, has been changing and may not be as stable as it used to be).

    Thoughts on what you would do or how I should frame this while I consider it?

    1. irene adler*

      What’s the outlook for finding a new job should you suddenly, unexpectedly lose your current position?

      Are there plentiful other opportunities? Do you think you can easily get a new job? It is harder to get hired when one is an older employee (pushing 40 or so).
      Are you good with working at a new job (i.e. is change difficult for you?)?

      I’ve been at the same job for over 26 years. So my resume shows a lack of progression (no promotions). Some employers look at that as a problem. Can you articulate how your position has grown/changed over the 20 years you’ve held it?

      1. Spaceball One*

        Jobs like this – both the one I have now, and the new one – are really hard to find. A couple years ago we had a contract issue and for a couple of days it looked like I was going to be jobless, and I honestly had no idea what I was going to do. These roles tend to be freelance rather than permanent-with-benefits. Both roles are in a similar contract environment, so there isn’t really anything to gain, stability-wise, by staying or going.

    2. Vicky Austin*

      I think you should at least start looking for a new job, even if you decide not to take it should you be hired. It can’t hurt to look.

  85. Raccoon*

    For the past few months, I’ve been struggling with extreme procrastination. Is anyone here a recovering “holy cow, it’s a miracle I didn’t get fired”-level procrastinator, and do you have any practical tips?

    1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      Sadly I’m still a huge procrastinor but I try to do one featured stressful thing a day

    2. Girasol*

      Two things help me with the procrastidons, the things I’ve been ignoring so long that they seem huge and scary and impossible. I start with very very small bites. First, I promise myself that all I have to do now is just get out the materials that I’ll need, glance over them, put them in order right in front of me, and then I can go have a coffee break. That’s not hard, but doing it often makes the next step not seem so impossible to face. Second, I promise myself that for the next hour I will attack the effort by doing nothing more than getting out my journal and writing about the work, listing the steps I’ll take to complete it. I often find I’ve procrastinated because it involves some task that I imagine I’ll fail in an embarrassing way so I’m avoiding even thinking about it. So I write about what’s the worst that could go wrong and what I could possibly do about it. Then I put those steps in order: try A then B then C. When I see that there are several ways to solve that thorny problem in the middle, I don’t feel so repelled by the task. And then, of course, by noon I’m done and wondering why I ever made such a big deal of it.

    3. Peter B*

      YMMV but for me it was a sign I needed to change jobs, which was scary because of the pandemic and how great my relationship with my boss/coworkers were. But my procrastination was rooted in boredom, and it was customer service for an insurance agency, so the things that weren’t rote could become headaches quick. Which, I did customer service for the better part of a decade and I was burnt out! Sometimes it’d also hit on my anxiety about customers getting mad, so I’d put it off. and then get a followup email from my manager, which made me feel worse. So I started procrastinating by lurking here, updating my resume, and job-hunting. It helped that I already had a clear idea of what I wanted to do when I was job hunting last time, and had to compromise.

      Knowing why you are resisting doing the thing has been key. If it was anxiety, I’d try and remind myself of realistic worst case scenarios, and that it would be so nice to not have to worry about it next morning. When I asked my boss to WFH for health concern reasons, I also asked him to give me a quota of calls to hold me accountable, which really only worked because I chose to disclose my job hunt due to specific circumstantial details. But it helped me ensure I wasn’t ruining my reference as I worked on escaping.

  86. Mini Manager*

    I joined a company with a lot of professional experience at a lower pay grade (say band 4 instead of band 6) than I deserved because I was at a low point psychologically, just moved into a new country, and didn’t think of negotiating. Fast forward and I finally made it to band 6 a year ago and was hoping to be promoted to band 7.
    I did everything possible, sold the biggest projects when the office didn’t make money, had the highest utilization, and a glowing review. Then I did not get promoted in December. That was shocking. 2 males got promoted from 6 to 7 and they have been in that grade for 18 months vs me with 12 months.
    Today, I finally mustered the courage to tell my mentor that I felt deflated for being the top performer among all band 6-7- and even 8 and still not being promoted. He was baffled and said ” we didn’t EVEN discuss you in this round, we weren’t considering any band 8 promotions” to which I had to remind him I was still band 6, so it was about moving to 7… Then he said something about ya you’ll be promoted, we value your contribution, you’re doing a terrific job, there were no development areas so just continue exactly as is etc. this is even more hurtful
    I am so sad and angry, I don’t know where to take it from here

    3. ferrina*

      I second irene- time to start looking at other jobs. You’ve got some amazing accomplishments! You deserve somewhere that knows how to recognize high performance.
      This is a company that has shown that it’s happy to take you for granted and won’t think about you unless you force them to. Note that they didn’t adjust your band to be competitive when you first joined (sounds like they gave you the lowest they thought they could offer, and you took it). You made it up, but they’re still making you fight for fair compensation. You can try making a lot of noise and following up to try to get them to compensate you in the way you deserve, but that’s going to be a lot of energy and it may not even work. It sounds like you might be seeing some sexism at play too, and that doesn’t go away unless the powers that be decide to actually address it.
      Good luck!

  87. Ellyfant*

    I have been doing annual contracting work for “Bob” for several years. Every time Bob takes months to pay the invoice and usually only after I chase him. Last year I gave a massive discount out of goodwill since his business was affected by covid. I basically did twice the work for half the fee yet I’m still not paid; despite invoice being first sent in August. The total amount payable is usually a small amount (low to mid hundred dollars). Considering my discounted hourly rate doesn’t even cover minimum wage I am really annoyed I did him a favor and I *still* need to follow up multiple times for payment.

    Next time he contacts me for work again I want to ask him for payment up front. Considering the years we worked together I don’t believe there is any reason for Bob to doubt my work ethics whether he pays me before or after. Is there a polite script for this request? If he balks I would rather not work with him as it’s not worth the hassle of chasing him for payment, but I do want to remain diplomatic.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      You could pretend it’s not about him. “Due to some clients not paying bills in a timely manner, I’m now requiring payment upfront.”

    2. CatCat*

      I’d pre-emptively send out something like “Updated Policy Regarding Billing” and address it generically like. “Dear Clients” then explain your policy now requires payment in advance of the work and that you are unable to make exceptions. Diplomatically, this approach lets him save some face since it’s not “about him,” but about a change to your billing policy (he doesn’t have to know it’s a change that is only for clients who have a pattern of not paying on time, i.e., him). And he can make a decision from there. If he contacts you for an exception, you can also point to the policy and explain you’re not making exceptions. At that point, you’ve been done everything diplomatically and the ball is in his court to accept the new terms or move on.

      1. Distractinator*

        And you don’t have to send anybody but Bob this “policy update” email, either, but it can save face to pretend that you did.

    3. pancakes*

      The Freelancers Union has a collections template letter on its site under Resources – Client Issues, and contract templates (under Resources – Contract Creator). Some of the advice for following up after that is NYC-specific since that’s where they’re based, but the rest might be helpful.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Since it sounds like you have a lot of personal contact with Bob, I wouldn’t try to go too formal and form-letter-ish.

      Is it always a flat rate, do you need to quote for each project, or do you work hourly? Whatever it is, figure out whether it makes more sense to get the whole thing up front, or do a deposit/retainer system where you get paid in installments (final installment due before final work is delivered, of course).

      When he contacts you, have your normal discussion about the scope of work, deadlines, etc, and then say something like:

      “I need to let you know that my billing model has changed. I now require payment up front (or retainer, etc, as you calculated). I can get started as soon as we get the payment taken care of.”

      I’ve mentioned this before, but it’s soooo important: when you tell someone your terms or your price, immediately STFU. Do not say anything else – no justification, no qualifications. If you speak you are negotiating, and they will talk you down.

      After they’ve complained or asked for an exception or whatever, you can just respond by nicely repeating that this is the new system and this is how much the payment (or first payment) comes to.

      If Bob says, “but you know me” or “but why?” you can just say “this new system works better for me.”

      Good luck!

  88. MlleJennyfair*

    Happy Friday, Everyone!
    I’m just finishing up with another of the countless Zoom calls that eat up each day. GAH! I have a huge conf call issue: running over. What started with two people on a specific project running over every. single. meeting. has turned into a common habit across various teams. Zoomers just keep talking and the calls carry 10, 15, even 20 minutes over. Organizers don’t cut anyone off – perhaps the the conversation is actually useful or because the speaker holds a higher position? Not sure, but it’s just plain rude and it drains precious time from the rest of the work day.
    If I’m not integral to the call, I’ll send a Chat that I have to drop, but sometimes I need the info or I just can’t get a word in edgewise to ask if we can adjourn and schedule a new time to talk further.
    I’m losing respect for the talkers and the urge to join any meetings at all.
    Have anyone successfully navigated this and been able to get people to shut it down at closing bell?

    1. MlleJennyfair*

      * HAS anyone….
      Ugh, great writing from a professional technical writer… (O_o) *gestures at nothing* “It’s Friday after 12, I’ll say no more.”

      1. MlleJennyfair*

        Usually the group at large – informing or updating everyone about status or a topic. However, there are usually plenty of sidebars, topics that should be taken offline. We also have a few notorious droners, taking take seven minutes to explain what could have been condensed to one.

        1. WellRed*

          Oh ugh. We’ve had some luck with the sidebar people (interjecting with “take it offline”) but the droners are a problem. Unless the person who leads the meeting is willing to say something it’s hard to short circuit. I don’t suppose you have the standing to say something to your manager or the meeting host outside of the meetings (“I noticed we’ve been running 30 minutes over regularly, I think if we…”(offer possible solution)

    3. ronda*

      i just interrupt.

      ” sorry to interrupt, but it is meeting end time and I have to drop off. meeting organizer, can you send out anything i miss via email. Thanks. ” click

    4. Grace Less*

      I just try to model good behavior when I am the one running the meeting. I let people know when we are “halfway through our allotted time” and use language like “prioritize items to cover in our last 15 minutes.” When 5 minutes remain, I say “unfortunately, the meeting will end in 5 minutes. Here are the action items I’ve recorded. We’ll meet again [appropriate interval].”

  89. Anon Today*

    Ugh. My boss’s evalutation of me was very positive–great! But he added a whole new, out of the blue, never discussed with me new job goal/category that I vehemently do not want to do!!! (Think teapot painter being asked to ride llamas bareback in the rodeo–while painting teapots.) I was so shocked that this was never even HINTED at before that I came right out and said no! So, not great. I was really upset. A) I do not want to be a rodeo llama rider. But B) if this had come up along the way, I could have negotiated parts of it, gotten used to it, maybe found ways to minimize the crazy. It was dropped from the sky and I am floored.

    I still don’t want to ride llamas in the rodeo while holding down my usual teapot painting duties. My boss backed down and took it out of the evaluation, but I’m afraid this is going to keep coming up. I am miserable about it. ANd boss thinks he’s giving me a treat!

    1. PollyQ*

      How explicit have you been with your boss that this is something you really, truly do not want to be doing? You may not be able to avoid it altogether, because that’s how jobs are sometimes, but at the very least, you can make him aware that’s it’s the opposite of a favor to you. If you get stuck with it regardless, perhaps you can negotiate for something to balance it out, e.g., getting a different unpleasant task taken off your plate, more responsibility in an area you like, possibly even a raise or title bump (if you think the change in responsibilites would merit that).

    2. ferrina*

      It makes a difference if this is something that your boss is trying to reward you with vs. if it’s the direction your company is taking your role. And bosses mix up the two ALL TEH TIME. If your boss brings it up again, you can say “I understand that some people might be really excited about this, but this is something that I would be miserable doing this. Is this something that will be inevitable to my role, or is there some flexibility here? If it’s an option, I’d really rather not do this and instead focus on developing a cubist style of teapot painting”

      1. Weekend Please*

        If possible, you could also suggest someone else whose job could stretch that way and offer to help bring them up to speed on the teapot painting part. “Maybe Tom, our llama rider, would be interested in this. I would be happy to help train him in teapot painting.”

      2. Anon Today*

        Yeah, I think it’s very much a mix-up, because my role has never called for llama riding but I may have done some llama riding in my youth and I think he thought this would be a yee-haw. I cannot imagine the company really wants a squad of llama-riding teapot painters. I was unprofessionally blunt about how unwelcome and opposite of a treat this was, and he backed down. I also quietly reached out to a few llama-riders in my network and asked them never to mention that I can, in fact, ride a llama. They completely understood, and noted that it’s the kind of thing that comes up rarely but does come up. (Think, “Oh, how do you know Anon Today?” “Would you believe we went to llama-riding school back in the day? I hear she’s happily painting teapots these days.”) I don’t think I’m completely out of the woods and I’m sorry I was actually rude during my evaluation, but man… please don’t surprise employees with “rewards” unless those rewards are monetary!!

  90. Language Lover*

    The letter this week about having another candidate be a part of the interview panel brought up something I’ve been thinking about.

    At my work, for managerial positions, there’s usually a full search involving internal and external candidates. Members of the department who are not applying will be on the interview panel.

    How do you decide whether you apply to be the next boss (no guarantee) or take the path of choosing the next boss?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Do you want to be the next boss? Because if not, that’s your answer. For me, if I want to be the boss (genuinely want the work, not just the money) then I would apply to the position. If I don’t, then I would not. It’s really just a matter of how much you want the job.

      1. Language Lover*

        Oof money matters.

        Like anything, there are things I think I’d like about it and things I think I’d not like about it. And some of what I wouldn’t like about it is related to who my boss is which changes more than my job usually does.

        1. AnotherLibrarian*

          Of course, money matters, but there are jobs where no amount of money will make up for the toxicity, change in job duties, and other stressors. So, the decision can’t be all about the money. It has to be about the duties.

    2. Sally*

      That would depend on whether you want to be the next boss. Are you excited about the possibility, even if there’s no guarantee? Apply for the job. If you’re trying to work up the enthusiasm for applying, maybe it’s not the right time/role fo you. If you’re thinking about applying just to keep someone awful from getting the job, being on the panel sounds like a more useful choice.

  91. Anonollama*

    So I’ve posted before about my dysfunctional workplace and having to get out because of their COVID unsafe practices having a terrible effect on my mental health. I was talking to my therapist recently and they suggested that the dynamic between me and my employer has some resemblances to an abusive relationship. A couple particular areas we identified: Taking on the role of the shield or protector of fellow employees (voluntarily being the person who would bring up problems or areas of conflict with bosses, try to make peace between people, etc) and hanging onto the relationship way too long- even though it was harming me- because I thought I could somehow fix the dysfunction. I am realizing that it is true in many ways (more than just those two); this was an abusive relationship. Not openly abusive- no yelling or overt violence from my bosses- but definitely emotionally abusive using gaslight-y and manipulative tactics.

    So my question is twofold: For people who are or were in similarly abusive work environments, how did you recognize it? And for those of you who’ve gotten out, do you have any advice for getting back into a healthy frame of mind wrt work?

    1. ferrina*

      To get back in to a healthy mind, here’s some things that helped:
      -Being aware that it was abusive and you did what you had to to survive
      -Reflecting on the habits you developed and why. It was really hard to trust my instincts again after abuse. I got in the habit of asking myself “What techniques have I developed to survive? What was that technique in response to? What action would cue up that technique? Is this a technique I would use with a reasonable person/place?” Example: I get very nervous whenever my boss sets up a meeting with me. This is in response to the situation that my boss only set up meetings when they were angry and going to berate me. I was triggered whenever I saw a meeting invite from my boss (that’s my cue that I was going to be yelled at). This is not something I would need to do with a reasonable person.
      -Knowing that your reactions are reasonable given your history, and it takes time and awareness to adjust. What you know logically and what your emotional reaction is won’t always line up- and that’s okay! Example: My new (healthy) boss send me a meeting invite. I still freak out, but I know why I’m freaking out. I can own that my emotional response is reasonable based on my history, and that’s okay, but I also can talk myself down a bit. (of course, if you start realizing that the tactics you used in response to abuse are still making sense to use in your new job, you may want to examine your new environment more closely.)
      Good luck!

  92. Mom of a Teenager*

    Hi everyone! Does anyone work with the National Parks Service, or have insight about the different career paths available there?

    I have a teenager who’s a junior in high school and not quite sure what she wants to do for a living. We recently visited a (empty! no people around!) national park and she was super energized and engaged. We’ve been talking since then about how there are a lot of different kinds of jobs with the National Parks Service, and been looking around a bit online – but I thought it would be so cool to hear from someone with firsthand knowledge! Thank you and take care!

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I worked for the NPS years and years ago. A lot of work the is seasonal, because the parks aren’t all open year around. It’s a federal job, so federal applications are weird and complicate, but that’s just how it goes. I thought it was a fine summer gig for me, but knew I didn’t want to do it forever. Depending on what you do, liking to camp and be outdoors are two big pluses. Not sure what else to tell you. I didn’t do it for very long and it was never going to be a career for me. Some of those jobs can be way more competitive than you think, especially for the anthropology, archeology and historian gigs.

      1. Mom of a Teenager*

        Thanks for the info! I’m a federal employee myself so familiar with the federal hiring process. Appreciate the reply!

    2. voyager1*

      There are some good forums to ask this, but short version is this: NPS is a federal agency and uses the federal method of hiring people. It can be a long journey to becoming a ranger is that is what she is wanting. But it isn’t impossible.

      1. Mom of a Teenager*

        Thanks! I’m a federal employee myself, so familiar with that hiring process, but appreciate the reply!

    3. Ali G*

      What did she like about it? There are lots of aspects to think about. A degree in ecology, wildlife, hydrology, etc. are all degrees that could be NPS adjacent, but also have other outlets (I have a forestry degree but haven’t worked for Federal agencies).
      There is a program the Student Conservation Corps she could look into to get volunteer gigs that might help her figure it out. I did one with the Forest Service when I was in college and it was a great experience.
      The best bet would not to put her sights on a specific agency, but to see what contribution she wants to make re the types of things the NPS does and pursue that, so she would have more options.

      1. Shelly574*

        This is great advice. My sister thought she wanted to be a NPS employee, but makes more money being an exploratory geologist and still get paid to camp in remote locations.

      2. Mom of a Teenager*

        That’s great advice, thank you! It was basically being outdoors, and seeing that there were employees in a place like that (there was a guy directing cars at the toll booth). She says she doesn’t want to do bench science, but hasn’t really ruled anything else out. Her brothers used to do a summer program that involved trail maintenance at one of the parks and she likes the sound of that. I think, overall, it was the idea that she could have a job that does not involve being in an office setting all day, haha.

    5. D3*

      If this is something she’s considering, she could work for a park concessionaire for a summer just to see what it’s like working and living in a park. She could meet and get to know people who work for the NPS as well. I did it in college and it was a great summer job!
      (I never had aspirations of it as a career, just didn’t want to live with mom and dad and do fast food over the summers. Made better money than fast food, and had an amazing experience!)

    6. Reba*

      There are many jobs within the NPS. Within anecdotal experience among my network, I feel like a lot of people get into it because they like being outside, but then they end up working in the Federal bureaucracy and … yeah.

      But I know one person who is a facilities manager, another who is a specialist in architectural preservation, ecologist, turf specialist, GIS… lots of things! They also have jobs and internships that are geared at students and young adults.

      Some tracks are seasonal up to a pretty high level. A relative of mine worked on a 9-month schedule for years and loved it. Their facility was fairly remote so it was great to have that time for visiting family and friends.

    7. SentientAmoeba*

      Look for Student Trainee positions. They are very low level temporary positions and somewhat easier to get than a regular Federal job. Since they are dealing with students, you can usually just show up to a hiring event with a resume and that’s all you need to get the ball rolling depending on the minimum requirements and how many people are interested.

    8. Anon Ranger*

      I am a Biological Science Technician with NPS. Conservation crews and Americorp positions are a common way to get a foot in the door and get direct hire authority. These opportunities can be exploitative of young and passionate people though, since they often pay very little if anything. If (and only if) your teen can afford to work a summer or two in college without income, that would be a good option to explore. Scientists in Parks internships are paid and open to college students and recent grads. Also, many parks are hurting for volunteers right now. I think teens under 18 can volunteer with parental permission. Volunteering and shadowing would be a great way to get a sense of the kinds of work NPS employees do. Also, if she is interested in conservation or environmental education, NPS is only one of many, many ways to get into that work. People tend to zero in on NPS and forget all the other federal, state, non profit, and other private organizations that do similar work (sometimes for more money and usually with much better job security). Happy to answer any questions!

      1. ronda*

        I dont have personal experience but was going to suggest looking at local and state parks too.

        My cousin took law enforcement classes in college and ended up being a park ranger at his county parks.
        Really nice for him cause hunting and fishing are his thing, he is rather outdoorsy.

    9. retired*

      I’m going to be more negative than the other commenters. I have experience both as a volunteer and as a seasonal employee. I had some great coworkers and also some of the most toxic workplace experiences of my career. And I’ve worked in prisons. For example, one of my tasks was to answer general questions from the public about a Park I’d hiked in and lived near for years. The men would interrupt me, take over the conversation, and mansplain. When I pushed back, I was reprimanded by the ranger. There’s been a lot of news in the last few years about the culture being like this. I would carefully research what kind of work your daughter wants to do and have her think about how her personality fits into that. If she wants to introduce herself with her pronouns, this is not the place in my experience.

  93. The Turtle*

    I asked last week about how long it took for you to feel competent in a relatively complicated job and I appreciated the responses! Now I’m wondering at what point in working on becoming competent in your job that you say “Well… Maybe I just am not cut out for this” ? Still at 8 months here, and someone mentioned with the pandemic learning can take longer (which I VERY much feel. 3-4 months of my job was a whole pivot from my regular duties.)

    But I am realizing that I really don’t understand a part of my job (a data piece) and my boss just hasn’t had time to sit down and talk it through with me. I’m also afraid to reveal that I really am confused about this part. I could reach out to one of our partners, but I’m the one who is supposed to be giving guidance to them on this, so that feels weird. I feel like over time I’ll be able to understand more, but I can’t fake it month after month because I have to lead meetings on it monthly. So now I’m like…well. I could quit? But I am trying and I really don’t want to leave this job! I like it. It’s just this part that I am really struggling with. Maybe if I don’t get it within the next 2-3 months, is that a sign that I’m not cut out for it?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think you need to talk to your boss about this. I really do. I’ve been at my job for 18 months and I still don’t always feel competent, but I think if you feel like you need more training on something, 8 months isn’t too late to ask.

    2. PollyQ*

      Ask your boss for help! It will probably not be nearly as bad as you fear, because 8 months isn’t that long, in the grand scheme of things. It sounds like you’ve had to learn a number of discrete new tasks, and you haven’t even been trained on this one! It’s not surprising that your skills in this area are lagging a little behind.

      So bite the bullet, say something like, “Boss, now that I’ve been here 8 months, I feel like I’ve got a pretty good handle on almost everything, but there’s one thing I’m still not solid on. Can we set aside some time so you transfer that [data stuff] knowledge to me?”

    3. Cookies for Breakfast*

      Wait, are you me? I also feel I might not be cut out for my job and also struggle with a data piece! My predecessor never showed me the reports that existed or mentioned that they were not fit for purpose, so it’s all questions coming my way from people who are subject matter experts but somehow think I hold the knowledge, and me returning blank stares (or sending them to higher-ups who must think I’m very incompetent).

      Even so, I agree with AnotherLibrarian’s advice to talk to your boss. You mentioned you do a complicated job, and I’m ready to bet that this is one of many tasks you’re juggling – to need help on one of them doesn’t mean you’re dropping the ball on absolutely everything (but it’s very human to feel like the one thing, or the few things you struggle with paint a clearer picture of you than everything else you can and do manage!).

      I don’t have much that is useful to say, but wanted to send some good vibes your way and reassure you that you’re not alone. I hope the situation unfolds the way that’s best for you!

      1. The Turtle*

        Wait, are you me?? Are we working in the same job in parallel universes? Well, I actually really appreciate knowing someone is in the EXACT same position as me it seems and I’m not alone. If you ever need someone to connect to just vent or not feel as alone, I would be happy to give you my email!

        I think I will ask my boss for help then… Hopefully she is not mad, but she’s also on the way out, so I feel like it would be best for all of us if I’m super clear on it.

        Thank you all for your advice to speak up to my boss! I feel a little less scared knowing that is a viable option.

    4. SentientAmoeba*

      I’ve been doing my job for 3 years and I still don’t feel fully competent although what I know now compared to when I started is amazing.

  94. Furloughed in Texas*

    How do I list a furlough on my resume?

    If I get rehired, do I note it at all? Like “XYZ Partners 2017-2022 (furlough Jan to March 2020)”

    If I don’t get rehired (and while I’m in furlough) should my current job be listed as “2016 – present”?
    Would the end date (I list months) be the beginning of the furlough or the final end of the relationship?

    1. WellRed*

      Personally, if I were currently furloughed and looking, I’d list it as though I was no longer there. (April 2017 – January 2021). If you go back to that job, and then look elsewhere, I would leave off the furlough, especially as it’s so short. (April 2017-February 2025).

  95. Would this be burning a bridge?*

    So here’s my situation:
    I took a Senior Manager role in my company about a year ago and it has not turned out like I was expecting – just a revolving door. 5 different managers (purely from reorgs, not turnover) and my responsibilities keep changing – it’s been limbo. I have been with this company for 22 years (various roles) but this past year I have just been increasingly unhappy and so have been job searching. I have a great opportunity at a different company I am interviewing for and am one of the final candidates but they have a very slow process. I am very excited about the potential of starting fresh and new somewhere else.
    Today my manager told me that they want me to run our National Icicle Department. High profile, one specific part of my current job (but expanded to other divisions) and would get me out of limbo state with a firm role and responsibilities. He would like an answer Monday. If I don’t get Other Job, this is definitely what I would be ok with saying yes to. But I poked Other Company about their timeline and I won’t get a decision from them for at least another week or maybe even two.
    So, I guess my question is – how bridge burning is it to say yes to my manager now, but potentially give notice 2 weeks later if Other Job comes through? I think I answered my own question just typing this out, but I’m really stuck in analysis paralysis.

    1. Choggy*

      Can you come up with some questions about the new position that would give you more time for this other job to come through? It’s ironic that all of a sudden your company is looking for an answer from you so quickly after being in limbo for so long.

    2. Super Duper Anon*

      I would say yes, as long as this is work you would be OK with doing. You never know if the other job will be offered to you or not, or even if it is that they would offer all the things you would like to feel comfortable switching jobs. If you stall and they ask someone else, then the offer does not come through, you could feel even more stuck. At least this way, if you say yes and the offer does not come through, you have a chance to move into a better role in your current position.

  96. Cookies for Breakfast*

    I think I just…manifested a job rejection?

    The role is something I’ve excelled at in the past. It has many sides I enjoy, but also aspects I’ve grown out of long ago. Getting interviews for the work I do now isn’t easy at all (very competitive, requires lots of hard skills I can’t get at my current workplace).

    The company is very small. If I had realised how small at the start, I probably wouldn’t have applied. I’m sure there are very small companies that are great! My past experience in one was terrible, and I’m suspicious of similar environments (no HR, “family”-like team, growing fast but only plan to have one person in this role, no benefits, etc.). I think that made me biased: they gave reasonable answers to my questions about workload and challenges, and still I kept wondering what they might be hiding. I had many more questions, but not much time.

    At the end, they asked how keen I was on the job. I wasn’t expecting to have to make up my mind so soon, so it was quite the awkward moment. I mentioned a few things I’d learned that I wanted to reflect about, and they tried to convince me there and then (the equivalent of me saying “I need to think about the requirement to work Sundays”, and them replying “oh, but don’t worry, it’s only two Sundays a month!”). Perhaps they liked me that much, but…multiply awkwardness by five.

    Most of all, I felt uncomfortable with how fast they seemed to be moving. The interviews I had were on the quick side, and their questions were generic. I can only think of one that would have given them real insights on how I do the job. Anyway, I just received a rejection email. It’s not unexpected, and I’m kind of relieved they made the decision for me. But also wondering: have two dysfunctional workplaces in a row ruined interviews for me forever? What if they were sounding like ok people to work with, because they actually are?

    1. ferrina*

      Don’t beat yourself up! You saw a couple worrying signs, you wouldn’t have applied if you’d had all the information before the interview, and the setting of the job was one that you know you wouldn’t like. Sounds like it wasn’t a good fit!
      As Alison says, interviews are also a chance for you to figure out if the job is a good fit for you. This one wasn’t, and you reacted accordingly. That doesn’t mean that you’ll react the same way for a different job that is a better fit!

      1. Cookies For Breakfast*

        I hope so! I work at a company that is very good at marketing itself to applicants (ok place to work overall, but my department is a special kind of hell), and “too good to be true” seems to be my default for job adverts now. I didn’t get to ask all my questions about culture, which keeps me wondering whether something I wanted to believe strongly enough would eventually have come up.

    2. MlleJennyfair*

      IMHO, you’re fine! You may have had negative experiences in those wacko workplaces, but in this case, it sounds like you listened to your gut, always a wise thing to do.
      If the interviewers were moving faster than was comfortable, downplaying the things you needed time to think about, and oddly overeager, it all sounds a bit squirrelly. And if you know they don’t have an HR dept. or benefits, you just dodged a bullet, no matter HOW great the role sounded!
      You’re using this site and probably several others that describe good, healthy workplaces and functional business relationships, so you’re not ruined forever! You know what it looks like – and sounds like that job wasn’t fitting the picture. When you see it again, you’ll know!

      1. Cookies For Breakfast*

        It was interesting, because a few things they said about the role did sound like opportunities many people (more confident and less burnt out than me right now) would be happy to take. I shared that with my partner and a few friends afterwards, and they all saw the upsides more clearly than the reasons I was concerned. But I think it was for the best. Today, with a clearer head, I remembered what most excited me about my old job, and that the way the interviewers described their projects was very much the opposite kind of approach (not a wrong one, just not for me).

  97. CreepyPaper*

    Update on annoying sales guy who calls/emails me and the rest of my department constantly:

    He’s been reprimanded after he made Nadja (my much younger colleague) cry after berating her for not answering his calls instantly. She was on a Teams call to me for a good 45 minutes and we were going through some work she’s been struggling with – it was more of a training session – and she said ‘jeez, Laszlo’s called me like… five times since we started this call, can’t he just message me?’

    So when we were done reviewing the heckin’ mess that are her predecessor’s pivot tables, she rang Laszlo back and then she called me, all teary, saying he had just told her off for not answering his call and apparently ‘I was being trained by CreepyPaper’ isn’t a good enough response.

    So she went straight to our manager who got a bit mama bear and now Laszlo has been given a stern talking to by HR. The hassling has definitely tailed off. Nadja and I are only getting two chases per hour now and they’re over email or Teams chat. I will be keeping an eye on that though, I have a feeling that the calls and emails will ramp up again in a couple of weeks.

    Our other co-worker, the older guy, that I mentioned, has decided to retire and handed in his notice today. He leaves at the end of March (his choice, our company rule is a month’s notice but he wants to train up Nadja on one of the aspects of his job that only he does) and honestly I’ll miss him. He’s a crabby old thing but he sticks up for us ‘youngsters’ as he calls us. I’m 40 but I like he still classes me as a youngster!

  98. NylaW*

    My ultimate career goal is a VP or executive level position in IT. I’m thinking about doing an online MBA, and I’m torn between wanting to just get it done through something like WGU and actually doing a “real university.” I don’t know if it matters more where I get it from or just that I have it. Obviously there’s a huge price difference and money is definitely an object right now. There is little to no education assistance from my current employer for this type of thing at my level, so that isn’t an option.

    1. Decidedly Me*

      I have my MBA through WGU and no one has ever questioned it. It’s helped me meet my career goals and others that I attended with have had similar experiences.

      I think at most companies, it matters more than you have the degree than where you got it.

      1. NylaW*

        Thanks for your reply. It seems like the vote is split 50/50 on WGU. So many people say it was fine, it checked the box they needed checked, and that was all that mattered, but then others say it wasn’t worth the money and they wish they had spent the money on a “real” MBA program.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Do you need to actually learn material or do you just need the piece of paper that says you have an MBA?

        1. NylaW*

          Oh thanks for linking that. It seems to be really 50/50 on how people feel about it. It’s not like University of Phoenix or some other for profit places, where now everyone side-eyes it and where it can actually get you not hired.

      2. NylaW*

        It’s a bit of both. I took some business classes when I got my BS because they were required, but that was 20 years ago now. I’ve picked up a ton of business concepts, ideas, etc., working these last two decades. I’m very strong in HR and finance stuff as those were the areas I directly supported as an application and business analyst in IT. But there’s a lot of things I don’t feel like I know well enough. It seems that if my future career plans are a high level IT director, CISO, or CIO, I pretty much have to have an MBA. I have to tick the box, but I don’t want the place I choose to get that degree from to turn off a hiring manager.

  99. Amelia Shepherd*

    hi! okay so I am fully aware that I sound like I’m complaining. just, saying that right now.

    due to the pandemic, the library (well, one of them) has really done a lot to try to stagger shifts. this might mean I start a shift at 1:15 or something. but it also means that every other week I’m working 10-3 on wednesday and then 6-9 that friday (I work 12 hours a week and my monday hours aren’t affected).

    I’d really like to ask my manager if I could work 4 hours at a time. I’m not super thrilled with having to work every other friday night, but I’m just happy it isn’t every single friday like I used to have to work. but I’m really hesitant to ask for anything because when I asked to alternate friday nights like a year and a half ago, I was told no for now, because my other library job apparently makes scheduling me difficult. which I don’t get cause the library knew my schedule when I was hired and I work at my other job on the days I’m not at this one so it’s not like they have to deal with my working both on the same day but I don’t think I’ll ever get out of friday night’s entirely because of it (I only got to rotate because they hired someone new).

    anyway, but now I’m scared to ask for any other schedule accommodations for fear that my other job will be thrown back in my face. I also know that my manager has a lot on her plate (see: pandemic) and also a bunch of other people’s schedules to work out. but I would like to ask about working 5-9, while making it clear that I know she’s got a lot of other schedules to figure out and also that I understand of scheduling me for 4 hours at a time isn’t possible due to other’s schedules. I just don’t know how to word it.

    1. Reba*

      I think what you wrote is great!

      “Hi Manager, I have a request about scheduling. I wondered if it would be possible to schedule my shifts on the weeks I have Friday nights in 4-hour chunks, that is, W 10-2 and F 5-9. I fully understand if that change won’t be possible — I know you have a lot of schedules to work with, and I appreciate the efforts you are making to stagger schedules. Thank you for considering it!”

      If there is a reason for the change that you think would be compelling (commute, appointment) you could add it — or you might imagine that giving more reasons would make your manager grumble about you being difficult with your hours, idk.

      Regardless of past grumblings about your availability, this is a reasonable request!

      1. Amelia Shepherd*

        thank you! the last thing I want to do is be difficult, which is why I haven’t asked, and why I still might not, but I’m glad I have wording!

    2. ferrina*

      For me it would sort of depend why you want a schedule change. Has it been affecting your work or causing hardship? If so, that’s important info to communicate.
      If it’s just something that’s easier and more refreshing for you, you can still ask, but maybe frame it as a nice-to-have. “Hey, I don’t know if it’s possible, but I’d love to switch my schedule to ….. I know this won’t always be possible, but when it is possible, I’d really appreciate it!”

  100. Marsupilami*

    How do I make my (male) colleagues understand that gender specific treatment in the workplace is inherently bad?

    Back story: When getting a child here, both mother and father can take partially paid parental leave up to three years. Now, I just discovered the following is “standard practice” at my huge company according to HR:

    When a woman announces she is pregnant, in our HR system, automatically three years of parental leave are entered. You are not informed of that, I only noticed by chance, but this is information managers and HR can see and that can thus really harm you when applying for an internal transfer or a promotion. According to HR, this is not a problem, since they will change it, as soon as you let them know.

    When a man announces he is about to become father, no action at all is taken by HR. Parental leave is only entered in the system once he applies for it. (As it should be regardless of gender!)

    I am shocked by this practive that seems to belong to the 60s rather then 2021. However, many of my male coworkers do not see any inherent problem with hard coding that women should just stay at home when they get a child in the HR system unless I explain all the negative consequences this could have had for me to them.

    I cannot understand how anyone cannot see how this is fundamentally wrong. Any advice for how to make that crystal clear?

    (I should note that I mostly work with men. I thus do not know whether I would face the same problem with women. My friends mostly have the same general views as me and are thus not a representative sample.)

    1. Reba*

      To be honest, I don’t think you will convince them. Many of your coworkers probably do think — whether they have examined their beliefs or not — that women “should” stay home with children. And perhaps the HR system is intended to encourage women to take the full benefit they are entitled to. Many people may also not get how something that is positioned as a benefit could be discriminatory.

      I agree with you, though — a person should be in charge of their own plans and their announcement of those plans.

      If you have 3 year options for both parents, presumably you are in a country with strong gender equality rules? Maybe appealing to that is the best way.

      1. Marsupilami*

        Well, with the same line of thinking, also men should be “encouraged” to take the full benefit they are entitled to by HR…

        But you are right, though. While on paper we strive for gender equality, in reality “the mother should stay with the child” is still deeply rooted in a lot of heads. It is just so sad and wrong to find it hard coded in the HR system of a 100000+ employees company.

        1. Reba*

          Yeah, I mean “a parent should stay with the child until age 3” is a pretty clear message of the policy! And of course in most cases we still read the default parent as the mother.

    2. Maggie*

      I dont agree with the practice obviously but they probably view it that way because there’s no chance the woman is going to take no parental leave at all, and some men maybe wouldn’t take any so its viewed as more optional. What country are you in? Its hard for me to make a judgement since I am in the USA. I assume anywhere giving out 3 years of partial maternity leave is not in the US

      1. Marsupilami*

        This is Europe.

        I should clarify, though, that in addition to this leave, the mother has several weeks a required, fully paid, mandatory leave, where she is not allowed to work by law. So it is very possible to completely skip the optional parental leave after that.

        1. WellRed*

          I’m sure this is a positive thing for women/mothers overall, but I’m genuinely curious what law your country is imposing on women’s freedom to work if they want?

          Not trying to argue, truly, but I think that goes to the crux of your question about gender specific treatment.

          1. Oatmeal Baby Bump*

            If Marsupilami is writing from Finland (which I suspect they are but cannot be 100% sure of course), I can clarify this. You are allowed to work, except in very physically demanding professions, where the local employment agreement contract (negotiated by unions) restricts your tasks to less physically demanding ones, if available.

            If you want to get the maternity benefit (which is paid in part by your employer and in part by the government benefit bureau), you can go on maternity leave about 4 weeks before your due date. You can still work those dates, but you have to let the benefit bureau know how many dates you are working, for which you will get the minimum daily payment, not the full amount. Some people continue working close to due date and just report it, but others just go on maternity leave because it’s easier and usually you get paid about the same anyway. And third trimester, you tend to be tired.

            I think it’s legally mandatory to go on leave two weeks before due date and two weeks after birth (based on a quick google, some of this might also be codified as an EU directive). Most people just take the full leave, because it’s a great benefit. According to some official sources, you can also work after that time if your employer agrees to it. After 105 weekdays the maternity leave ends and parental leave from there can be used by both parents, and after 9 months childcare leave up to 3 years can also be used by either parent. (Both parental and childcare leave are benefits paid in full by the benefits bureau, not the employer.)

          2. Marsupilami*

            Very similar to what oatmeal baby bump wrote below; I do not want to disclose the exact country, but several European countries have similar laws.

            Not being allowed to work for some weeks after giving birth is indeed seen as a benefit – I guess the reasoning is that this prevents your employer from pressuring you to return to work before you have fully recovered, i.e. “giving birth and pregnancy are physically demanding, we ensure you have the time to recover”.

            But I agree, if everyone could freely decide without any pressure from their employer, the decision whether or not I work should be mine alone. And that is indeed the case for sick leave, which basically is not that different! You could argue that then also your doctor should be allowed to forbid you work, and not just recommend it…

            I have never thought about it that way. Strangely, that part always seemed purely beneficial to me. Maybe because you still get fully paid?

            Thanks, that was a useful insight!

  101. Time for Tea*

    Any advice for who to have as references?

    I’m one of the most senior people in my dept (second only to my boss). I don’t want to use Current Manager for obvious reasons. Former Manager oversaw some of my greatest successes, but also spent half her time sabotaging me. She’s also friends with Current Manager. My Equal-Level Coworker likes to trash talk me, and is also friends with Current Manager. The rest of the dept is much more junior.

    There are Senior Staff from different departments who would vouch for me, but they only know parts of what I do. The Senior Person who knows most of what I do is an unknonwn- he may be fine being a reference, or he may not want to (I don’t think he’d tell anyone if I asked).

    Anyone have any advice?

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      You should ask Senior Person, as long as you are sure of his discretion. Just give him a summary of what you do and ask him to speak to the tasks he’s seen you perform, as well as your overall professional character, and see if he agrees. If you hear hesitation before he agrees, don’t use him. Then keep proceeding through the remaining Senior Staff until you find a champion.

  102. Chris*

    Alison’s “Do you have any reservations about my fit for the position?” question paid off in an interview today. When I asked it one of the interviewers replied that something that had I had mentioned being my favorite part of the job wasn’t something this position would be able to do much of in the short term, but it would be possible long-term.

    This gave me the opportunity to clarify that I’d be ok not doing that sort of work for a while. It would only really be an obstacle if it would never be part of the job.

    So, asking about reservations gave me a chance to perhaps assuage the interviewer’s concerns as well as giving me a valuable data point about this job (and perhaps something to follow up on if I get an offer). Thanks Alison!

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’m glad you found this question useful, but as an interviewer, I hate this question. It puts me on the spot and I often don’t have a good answer (because I need time to analyze my notes and think about the position more), or if I do have an immediate answer, it is usually not something I am going to tell a candidate. “Well, you came across as an arrogant, entitled snob in your answers to questions 3 and 6” are not something I would ever tell a candidate. That means I inevitably give non-answers like, “Well, we clearly think you can do the job, or we wouldn’t have invited you to interview.” And then move on quickly to something else. You mileage will vary, of course.

  103. SUPER anon for this*

    Important background: I’m 35. My family carries three of many genes that cause deafness. As such, I was born mildly hard of hearing (now severe hearing loss), my parents are both profoundly Deaf, my younger sister is Deaf, youngest sister is fully hearing, & I have multiple family members on both sides who are Deaf. We all communicate in ASL. For further context, I began interpreting for my parents when I was 4, & it didn’t end until I left the house. I consider myself a CODA. I can “pass” for a hearing person. Important addendum: NONE of my family members are like Helen Keller (deaf-blind).

    My problem: I *loathe* the phone. It’s becoming a problem, & I’d like to know how I can work around it. It’s a visceral response born out of 15 years of having to answer phones & explain to people that my parents are Deaf & cannot talk to them on the phone. I’ve had people tell me they were “sorry they were death”, “are you POA for your parents?”, “they absolutely MUST come to the phone–I can only talk to them!”, battling doctors’ offices who refused to hire an interpreter (in violation of the ADA) or demanded my parents pay for one to be seen, lecturing/educating fully grown adults because they used “deaf-mute” or “deaf & dumb” to describe my parents, being the impromptu interpreter for my parents in school situations (& others) where the interpreter hired never showed up, or having to interpret for them while waiting for the actual interpreter to arrive when they experienced medical crises.

    Here’s an example of actual conversations I had over those years of answering phone calls for my parents:

    Caller: I’d like to speak to “Brian”, please.
    Me: That’s my father. He’s deaf. I can—
    Caller: Oh, dear, I’m so sorry. My apologies. I didn’t know he’d passed.
    Me: What? He’s not dead, as in ‘rest in peace’. He’s deaf. As in he can’t hear.
    Caller: He’s not there? Can you take a message?
    Me: Huh? He’s standing right here.
    Caller: Well, can I speak to him? It’s very important.
    Me: …I just told you he’s DEAF. He cannot HEAR you.
    Caller: Oh, deaf! Um, are you his power of attorney? Can you make decisions for him?
    Me: What?! No. He’s a fully functioning adult and is perfectly capable of making his own decisions. The only thing he cannot do is hear you. What’s the reason for your call?
    Caller: I just wanted to know… [spiel on product].
    Me: Brian is asking for you to mail him the information.
    Caller: Certainly! We can do that.

    After confirming the address, my parents receive the promised information…in Braille.

    Anyway, the point is that I’m perfectly polite when it comes to coworkers & important phone calls that aren’t IT related, telemarketing, troubleshooting, or anything that causes my frustration to spike (like when I had what was supposed to be a quick 20 minute phone call with my ISP turn into a 4 hour call. Over upgrading my internet speed. I got so upset & so frustrated over the 10 transfers because people bungled it so badly that I actually just told the 11th guy to “Do what you have to do. JUST GET ME OFF THE DAMN PHONE.” & I ended up having to yell that phrase at him about 10 times because he wasn’t listening & was trying to add a kajillion other things to my bill when *all I wanted was an upgrade from X internet speed to Y internet speed.*)

    Have any of you experienced this level of phone exhaustion? If so, what’ve you done that helped you get back some of your patience?

    1. Reba*

      Honestly, setting aside your family history and disability status… ANYONE would have lost it during that ISP call, it sounds excruciating.

      I also hate the phone and consider this as the only accurate Millenial stereotype. :)

      For calling big companies customer service like that, a piece of advice I got is to call back until you get someone who has a will to help you. I don’t mean getting around the rules (and no shade on the employee who follows their script that leads to your dead end!), but just someone who knows the product well and is able to be a little bit creative with your problem. Now, obviously this is less applicable when you have really long wait times, etc. but this advice has really saved my butt. Maybe this wouldn’t have helped in your Internet situation, but I like to think I would have ended the call with the unhelpful person at some point, and tried again another time. Your time has value!

      I’m so sorry for all the accessibility fails you have had to deal with.

      1. SUPER anon for this*

        Reba, it was. It was so awful. I would’ve just called back later but my contract was up, I was trying to renew with the new speed, & it just horrifically snowballed from there.

    2. ferrina*

      Agree with Reha- some reps are much better than others. If you get a bad rep, it’s okay to say “My cat is burning the house down! Gotta go!” and hang up. Try again 5 minutes later to see if you get a good rep.
      Give yourself permission to hang up. Sometimes rules of politeness and sunk cost fallacy kick in and we stay on the phone even when it’s obvious that everything is going wrong. (and you seem like a very polite person- in your phone conversation example, you let the caller interrupt you repeatedly and were still very respectful!).
      For crappy calls like that (which are awful even for folks that don’t have your history!), I like to have a calming tea ready and a game open on my phone so I can play while they put me in hold forever. Sometimes I’ll even have a chocolate donut waiting for me when I’m done.

      1. SUPER anon for this*

        Thanks, Ferrina. My politeness is just about exhausted at this point, lol. My coworkers know that I go from 0 to 60 in no time flat when I’m on the phone. I have much more patience face to face. Just a couple months ago I had to log an IT ticket for something at work. I noted that I’d emailed [local IT team, not our main one out in CA who has absolutely ZERO idea of what we do on my side of the country] in the comments…& proceeded to get a phone call from one of the CA IT on my issue. My company, since it’s a smaller, more insular offshoot of our main company, just happens to do things slightly differently from the rest of my company. This means minor things like having a three or four digit asset tag number instead of the six that the rest of the company has. I went round & round with the CA IT rep on this until I snapped, “Dude. I just TOLD YOU THREE TIMES how my company works. My company’s asset tag is FOUR NUMBERS. If you WANT to add two more zeroes on there to fulfill your six, GO RIGHT AHEAD. If you don’t want to listen to me, that’s your prerogative. Otherwise, I can’t help you. Take it up with my bosses. Let it go. I told you I sent an email to my company’s IT department; this is even in the comments in my ticket. I don’t know why you bothered to call if you’re just going to tell me I’m wrong.” He left a note in my ticket that “User refuses to provide asset tag number.” I left a comment telling him not to call me a liar, I gave it to you AND an explanation of why I have four numbers. You refused to listen to me. That’s not my problem, that’s yours.

        So…yeah. I do have a temper, & it comes out quite quickly with these situations. That’s why I’m trying to figure out how to break this phone loathing so I don’t get reprimanded someday because of something I said while dealing with _thing_ at work. I can definitely see it heading in that direction if I don’t rein it in now.

        1. Reba*

          Temper, sure, but also advocating for yourself where you need to is good.

          I wonder if this is something you could practice with a helper. Like, you could say what you said — being assertive of your expertise — to the obnoxious rep but instead of getting testy, you practice just speaking coolly and calmly.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      The trick here, I think, is to end the call before your frustration spikes. There’s nothing wrong with 20 minutes into a call saying, “I can’t continue this. I have another obligation.” And then getting off the phone.

      One of the biggest lessons to me in life was that sitting on my couch, petting my cat was a perfectly good obligation. I think your frustration may come from feeling powerless and finding ways to reclaim your control might help mitigate some of the frustration.

  104. louna*

    I’m mostly just venting here, I’ve said my piece to my manager already and that is about as much action as I can take.

    I have a co-worker who I will call Jane who is really underperforming. She’s sweet, but is a bit of a deadweight for our team. My team has three tasks we cycle through working on: Task A, Task B and Task C. Task A is the easiest and is where we put new hires. Tasks B and C are equally challenging, but anyone who has worked here for more than six months has the knowledge and experience to handle them.

    Jane has been here almost a year and is still on Task A. My manager briefly moved her over to Task B and had to move her back to Task A within a few weeks. Jane is unable to handle any nuance and will freeze whenever she has to make a judgement call, and either needs someone else to take over her work or needs to have her hand held through the whole process. She is also painfully slow. The time it takes to complete Task A varies, but is generally 2-3 hours. Jane regularly spends 4-5 hours on Task A.

    For awhile I thought that when Jane actually did her work she did a decent job, but I’m seeing today that is not the case. My manager has taken on some of Jane’s work and reassigned some of it to me, because it’s too much for just my manager to handle. I’m seeing that Jane’s inability to handle nuance has created unnecessary work. I have go back and clarify a number of things with our customer that Jane did not clarify, though it’s all pretty basic stuff in our line of work. Its delayed the customer receiving our service and our company getting payment.

    I’ve expressed my frustrations with Jane to my manager in the past, specifically citing the incidents where she’s created more work for me. My manager is aware, and I don’t feel like it would be helpful to harp on this further. My manager is hesitant to fire Jane because of the pandemic which I think is very valid, despite her being a deadweight to our team. I really just hope when this is all over Jane finds another job so we can hire someone more capable.

    1. Oatmeal Baby Bump*

      I had a friend in a similar position, except her palette of tasks was more like from A to H. They hired three co-workers in the span of 2,5 years who all did of A, B, C, D but never tasks from E to H. So my friend was the only one doing those tasks, and she was also doing A to D depending on the traffic. E was a fairly simple task (it was just data entry with some bells and whistles on it) but only one of the co-workers learned it or did it without significant errors, which would always fall on my friend in the end. The rest were more complex tasks, and while trained by my friend and another person higher up in the company in these tasks, none of the co-workers ever picked it up, they still regarded those as my friend’s job and her job only.

      Anyway, every co-worker eventually left and my friend just put in her resignation after nearly 3 years of dealing with burnout due to having too much work on her plate. Her boss was badly incompetent for failing to realize the problem and hopefully will suffer consequences but I guess what I’m saying is pay attention to the situation and don’t stick around if it gets worse. It is a sucky situation to have to fire somebody during COVID, but right now there’s also a plethora of candidates out there who could do a better job than Jane is. Let your manager know the moment your workload gets too bad, if she is a good manager she should see the problem of Jane for what it is.

  105. SentientAmoeba*

    Super nervous but interviewed today for a potential promotion. I am in a group of people who do similar jobs and someone in the group recommended me for this position. I was going ton turn it down because I don’t feel ready, but reading AAM reminded me that it’s okay to go for it and the hiring manager is the one who knows what skills and knowledge they are looking for. During the interview, I made sure to ask questions to find out if I would even want the job. In the back of my head, I kept saying, interviewing is a two way street.
    Fingers crossed. If I get it, this will be huge! Even if I don’t get selected, this has seriously stepped up my confidence in what I have accomplished and how my knowledge and professionalism is viewed by my professional peers.

  106. davisk0930*

    I am dealing with an awkward situation at work. I am pregnant, and am currently dealing with many pregnancy related issues and because of this I’m spending an inordinate amount of time in the bathroom. Since I am not allowed to have my phone with me at work I am never sure how long I am actually away from my desk. It’s not an issue yet, but if I’m asked what possible language could I use? My boss is aware of the pregnancy, and is excited for me, but surely does not want/need to know of my bathroom issues.

    2. ferrina*

      Since you have a supportive boss, you can say something like “I’ve had some unpleasant pregnancy symptoms start up recently. Nothing serious, but sometimes I need to be away from my desk for a while to deal with it. Just wanted to give you a head’s up.” Most people will read between the lines and will be very sympathetic. Congratulations, and hopefully these issues subside soon!

      1. ferrina*

        Just re-read your post. I assumed you were looking for language for your boss. You generally don’t need to say anything to your coworkers unless your job requires you to be at your desk. In that case you could say “You may notice I’ve needed to step away from my desk more frequently. If I’m not here, just leave me a post-it and I’ll call you as soon as I get back (or whatever you want them to do).” If you think someone might complain, you can add “Boss is aware of it and is fine.” But most reasonable people won’t pry, and if they see you head to the bathroom, they won’t ask questions!

    3. RagingADHD*

      If you’re asked where you were just because they’re being nosey or inappropriately controlling, just ask what the person needed from you and move directly into dealing with that.

      If a higher up expresses negativity about you being away, just say that your manager is aware of the health situation you’re dealing with, and it’s being handled.

  107. lifesempossible*

    Hi everyone!
    I started job searching recently. I had completed a phone interview and was given the normal starting wage (let’s say $A-C) and office hours (8-5, weekdays). After further thought, I called HR back and let her know that I was declining to continue further because I wouldn’t be gaining ANY wage between my current no-degree-needed-entry-level-job and this step into degree-needed position, and I would be losing free time compared to my current schedule. She told me that they were flexible on both fronts.

    During the interview with the CFO and Controller, at the point where they asked about my concerns discussed with HR, I said, “When I started job searching, I was hoping for $K. I understand that is a bit higher than what you were looking at, so I would be asking to start closer to $E and possibly look at wages rising with the progressive experience promised.” The CFO took a moment to explain that, “No, this is essentially an entry-level position and you’re switching careers. I have people here for several years that are not making your requested $K salary. You’ll need to keep that in mind.” The interview ended on a positive note, but no clear indication of whether my requests were addressed.

    The next business day, I received an email that asked for me to take an hour to complete an Excel assessment. I emailed back that I would like an idea of what a possible offer MIGHT look like, should I be the selected candidate, as my concerns were not clarified at all.

    I received a rejection at that point.

    Normal? Not normal? I know that I didn’t provide a huge amount of specific detail for all of you, but the basic gist seemed odd.

    1. voluptuousfire*

      I think you may have soured them by asking about salary repeatedly. I get why you asked because it didn’t make sense to you for what they were leaving on the table. You weren’t picking what they were putting down, so to speak.

      In the end, it sounds like it was a mismatch. You had your concerns that you felt weren’t addressed. They likely saw you as someone more concerned about money than the job itself. I think you may have put too much of an emphasis on pay, which was a turn off for them and it’s unsurprising you were rejected. I’d dial back the heavy questions about salary, especially to the higher-ups. Such questions really should go through the recruiter and she should have clarified this question with them for you from the start. I think they moved you forward with some reservations and your pushing back triggered the rejection.

      I think it was for the best. You didn’t mention anything that would be good about the role outside of it not being your current one. C’est la vie.

      1. ronda*

        I dont think there is anything wrong with talking about salary and they seem to be fine with moving forward after discussing it.

        But … when you were discussing it, maybe you should have pushed to confirm that they would meet the salary $E, sounds like that was not 100% clear to you (just that they were not willing to do $K), but maybe they thought it was clear.
        I do think it is normal not to move forward if you think you wont agree on salary.

        The other thing I would suggest thinking about…. is this CFO right about the salary for the position you are looking for being lower than you think across the board, or is that just this company?

        I was very upfront about my salary requirement for my last couple positions…. why waste time if we are not in agreement?

    3. ferrina*

      It sounds like you and the company were too far apart on compensation. That happens. The CFO told you that they weren’t willing to be flexible around the pay.
      They probably assumed after the interview that you were willing to accept $E. They kept you in the selection process by sending you the Excel assessment, but when you pushed back about an offer, they realized that $E was not an acceptable number to you. At that point they weren’t going to keep you in the selection process if ultimately you would turn down the job at $E.
      It’s not unusual. I’ve been screened out at the phone screener when it was clear we were too far apart on compensation. If the company knows you won’t accept the job at what they are willing to pay, they don’t want to waste their time (and you probably don’t want to waste your time either).

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      I don’t know if your $K salary was out of the $A-C range or at the top of the range, but I suspect this was a salary issue. If I had a candidate who expressed concerns about the salary, named a higher salary than I was willing to pay, and then wouldn’t do a skills assessment until they knew the salary offer I would probably drop the candidate. I’d assume that the candidate was going to turn down the job anyway when I wouldn’t match their salary goal and wouldn’t want to waste my time. If a job candidate seems uninterested in a job after the phone screen (as you expressed to HR) and then also declines the skill assessment, that candidate is just too much work unless I have a super small or weak pool.

    5. RagingADHD*

      I think your concerns were addressed very clearly and directly, if the wording you’re using here is a fairly close representation.

      You said, “I wanted K but I’ll settle for E with assurance of raises.”

      The CFO said, “No. This is entry level.”

      That was your answer. You weren’t going to get E. By proceeding, you indicated that you were okay with not getting E.

      When you re-opened the question again, it sounded out of touch. They already said no.

      1. Weekend Please*

        I think this is it. It sounds like they believed that their range was fair and that you had unrealistic salary expectations. When they offered you the skill test they probably assumed that you would either decline to continue or accept that $A-C was the range. When you asked again about salary it was clear that you were not interested if it was $A-C. I don’t think it is odd I just think you were both on very different pages.

  108. lapgiraffe*

    Sharing a bit of a win today – I got past my own fear and insecurity to reach out to a loose connection for an informational interview re: possibly starting my own business. Not only did they get back to me immediately, we scheduled the call for the next day (today) and it was incredibly helpful. I’m not great at talking about my own half-baked ideas, I’m one of those people who likes to have everything completely thought out and every alternative equally thought out before ever telling anyone about what’s on my mind. But I managed to fight those fears and go for it, and I still feel pretty sick to my stomach even though it’s over, but I broke the seal and I survived and it feels good to end the week on a high note.

  109. Aubrey*

    Cover letters. I’ve read Alison’s advice, I know they’re important, and I’m trying my best, but I still hate them. I have a backlog of job listings that have just become a permanent part of my browser because it takes so much time and effort for me to write them that it just makes me anxious. I know part of it is just that I’m applying for entry-level positions in a few different fields, so I don’t have a really good “base” letter yet that I can draw from to get something together quickly. But I have a couple other potential issues I’m not sure if I’m overthinking or not:

    1.) I talk about my past job duties in these letters a lot. Obviously these jobs are also on my resume, and I know I shouldn’t be summarizing my resume in the letter, but I don’t have direct experience in any of the jobs I’m applying to. So a lot of the substance of my cover letters has been “here’s a way that I used x skill that is also in your job description,” or “at this job I did y, which is similar to z skill you’re asking for.”
    2.) My natural writing style is pretty formal. I know Alison has advocated for a less formal style in the past, but that just… isn’t my actual personality or writing style. I’m not sure if this is coming across as “serious person with good writing skills and professional style” or “dry and maybe a little pretentious.”

    I’m working really hard to customize my letters for every job and follow the great advice on this site, but I’m afraid these things taken together might be causing them to come across as more generic (or at least just less good) somehow. Any advice?

    1. WellRed*

      I think you ARE overthinking it, if the stress of it means you aren’t applying to jobs at all. For no. 1, think about what might be a good quality to have for a particular job you’re applying for and include that, as well as why you think you’d like the position / company. After all, it’s entry level, there’s a bit more leeway there.
      For no. 2, I wouldn’t worry about your writing being too formal. That’s better than too casual. However, if you are truly concerned, try reading the cover letter aloud and see if anything jumps out at you that could be toned down. Just from your comment (for an imperfect example): “here’s a way that I used x skill that is also in your job description” This sounds really stilted and rigid. I realize that might not be exactly how you are writing, but if you were speaking out loud, would you actually say it this way? Probably not!

      1. Aubrey*

        Oh god no, I’m not actually phrasing it like that haha. Reading it out loud is a good idea though, thank you!

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Wow, I think you’re overthinking this. I mean that in the nicest way possible. Everyone I know hates writing cover letters, but when I hire, the cover letter is probably more important to me then the resume. Maybe you can’t have a base cover letter, but I bet you can build a base intro paragraph and ending paragraph and then make some middle paragraphs that you can swap in an out. My best trick for writing cover letter is say out loud to a friend why you want the job and why you think you’d be good at it. Then have them write that down as you say it and polish that for your cover letters. Talking to someone you know makes tones down the formalness and it also forces you to really think about what you offer the employer.

      1. Aubrey*

        I actually did something similar with one of my recent ones. Not saying it out loud, but I wrote something down first just for myself that basically just said “I think I would be good at this job because [insert reasons]” and then restated some of those in the actual letter. It did seem to help a little bit.

        I really do appreciate the reality check! I’m a neurotic person at the best of times, and I’m probably putting too much pressure on this particular job search for a few reasons. Sometimes I just need to hear that it really is just a me problem, haha.

  110. Roger*

    I need to vent about client rudeness.

    I work for a social services agency that handles the full gamut of cradle to grave needs, from wealthy folks looking to get information about retirement and Medicare to folks relying on public aid to keep themselves alive. Right now, because of the plague, we’re doing all of our services through phone and internet, with in-office visits only available by appointment and only for dire need situations (e.g. “I didn’t get my payment this month and I’m about to be homeless”).

    I just had a woman tell me, after I explained all that to her, that she qualified for a dire need appointment because she needs to get her concealed carry license. She was also big mad because “it’s taken you 7 months to solve this!” when actually she only had the documents she needed in October (she is counting the months where she couldn’t find her divorce decree as months where we dropped the ball).

    Literally the call before that, I had a homeless woman who needed some forms from us but doesn’t have a stable mailing address to send them to. We worked out a plan involving General Delivery, and not once did I think of getting her in the office (nor did she ask).

    The entitlement of some people, I swear.

    (This is mostly just venting, but if anyone has tips on how to handle this without straight up saying “you have enough to eat and a place to live, you’re doing fine” because I think that’s considered rude)

    1. Littorally*

      Oh man, I’ve had clients do the same thing — “I’ve been waiting three months for this!” No, we sent you the documents to sign three months ago and you mailed them back yesterday. Not our fault.

  111. Justified and Ancient*

    I’m probably a bit late to the party but I would be grateful for any input. TIA.
    I have had a 30 year career as a registered nurse, but was recently medically terminated from my office position. I suffer from a condition that is both severe and unpredictable. Despite trialling a large number of medications, I still have several attacks per week. I’m dying to return to some form of work, even if it means retraining. My issue is that I don’t know what I could do to work around my condition, given its unpredictable nature. I’m also aware that I might be up against it because of my age.
    By way of transferable skills, I am computer literate, learn quickly, have customer service skills and leadership experience.

    1. CatCat*

      Could you do some kind of auditing work? I worked for a government health program that employed medical practitioners including nurses to audit providers who were getting paid through the program. This was mostly a desk job (some did travel to sites, but not all) reviewing documentation from the providers. Could something like that in government or at an insurance company be viable for you? Might be worth looking into.

      1. Justified and Ancient*

        Thank you for your reply. Yes, I can see something like that being feasible as long as I could work around my flare ups, which currently occur about three times a week.
        Can you tell me what descriptor I would enter to search for such positions?
        Also, I’m not committed to remaining a nurse. I have the means to retrain if necessary.

    2. ronda*

      this is what my sister is doing now. she does it at the hospital, but also has a consultant doing it remotely. Maybe a remote job like this would work.

      Chart review for clinical documentation and coding: Such reviews are done concurrently with a hospitalization to facilitate corrections in the documentation before a claim is filed with the insurer. Clinical documentation improvement (CDI) reviews require professionals with a nursing background and they have to work closely with a coding team for the best results. Many hospitals involve physicians or vendors offering CDI or physician advising services to review complex cases and to assist with communication with treating providers.

      the description is from this site and there are several other types of chart review mentioned: https://www.mosmedicalrecordreview.com/blog/what-are-different-types-medical-chart-reviews/

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Nurses are super useful in utilization management and clinical documentation improvement areas. We also have a couple RNs-turned-coders on our surgery coding team, and coding departments, especially for bigger orgs or possibly third party vendors, tend to be pretty flexible schedule-wise. Ours is fully remote so hours can basically be worked literally any time you want.

    4. JO*

      Try insurance companies. Nurses there do everything from phone triage to claims review. Some law offices have nurses on staff for similar reasonings.

      1. Malika*

        I know a nurse that needed a couple of years work befor ertirement where he could apply his experience yet be able to sit down due to health reasons. He did phone triage and it was a great solution! Even if your condition is volatile, being able to sit down and handle a clearly defined process makes work much easier to handle.

    5. Justified and Ancient*

      Thank you all for your helpful replies. I’m not in the USA but will investigate similar positions in my country.

  112. Vicky Austin*

    TW: sexual harassment

    Twenty years ago, I had a crush on a co-worker, who I’ll call Frank. I continued to make advances on him even after he said no. Finally, he sat me down and gave me the whole “I think you’re awesome and I have great respect for you, but I’m not attracted to you in a sexual or romantic way” talk. He didn’t seem to be intimidated by me at the time and even said that he felt bad that he didn’t have feelings for me. Naturally I was heartbroken and had a hard time accepting it, but I got the message and stopped pursuing him.
    After the MeToo movement a few years ago (which I completely support) I realized that I had sexually harassed him. I also realized that if the roles had been reversed, I would have found his behavior to be predatory and creepy, and would have talked to the manager. I thought about writing to him and apologizing, but decided not to as I haven’t seen him since 2001 and most likely never will again (he lives in a midwestern city where I have no desire to visit, and I live in the northeast).
    Then, last week when I was watching Joe Biden being sworn in as president, and I recalled when I was at George W. Bush’s inauguration twenty years prior. I had attended it with Frank. See, we had a work event in Washington, DC, and they purposely scheduled it for January 20th so that we could go to the inauguration. I got thinking about Frank again, and once again considered the possibility of writing to him. I even drafted a letter and saved it on my computer. I haven’t sent it. I’m now wondering if it would be appropriate to send it to him. It could bring up negative memories for Frank and open a wound that healed long ago. What do you think?

    1. Amber Rose*

      I wouldn’t. Sending it would only be for your own self satisfaction. The best apology for something like this usually is never doing it again.

      1. Aggretsuko*

        Yeah, I would never have contact with Frank again if I were you.

        That said, it sounds like he did it as nicely as possible and you took it as well as possible, so there’s that.

    2. CatCat*

      I wouldn’t send it. If I were Frank, I’d actually find it a little creepy considering all the time that has passed.

      It’s great that you’ve been able to reflect on what happened and recognize your wrong behavior. Your best path is to keep working on yourself without dragging Frank back into it.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Nope, nope, nope.

      Not trying to be mean, but this is just another way to project your own feelings onto Frank and drag him into a situation he didn’t sign up for.

      If Frank wanted to be in touch, he could reach out to you. Leave him alone.

  113. Aggretsuko*

    I went two months without being shamed again at work. Guess what happened again.

    However, I did get blamed for something about which I was never ever contacted about, so I’m completely stumped. Also, literally the complaint went to the governor, so I’m officially THAT AWFUL.

    Also, I would like to know why I have had to email certain people every day for two weeks and never get a response (which is not “service centric,” is it?, but if I complained about that, I’d get in trouble. It was made clear that those people are untouchable and I’m wrong anyway.

    Also I am a (redacted) because I pointed out that a certain population has chronic problems and we don’t know why.

    I obviously can never get another job because I continue to be a failure at speaking to humans.

    1. Jobbyjob*

      It sounds like you’d like people to soothe your feelings and tell you it’s ok, but given that based on the way you explained the situation it isn’t at all clear what actually happened, any platitudes aren’t likely to be very relevant to you. Seems that there may be something about your performance at work that isn’t up to expectations. Are you receiving training or coaching on this? Do you have a manager who has clearly communicated expectations? Is this the right role for you or would you be more capable of delivering at the expected level doing something else? I’m sorry it sounds like you are really struggling but I recommend doing what you can to separate the facts from your emotions.

  114. Nonny*

    Slightly inspired by an above comment– how do you adjust to not loving your job? I recently finished grad school and have been lucky enough to find work, but it’s not in my field. Definitely not a passion job, definitely just for money, but perfectly fine in all respects: company with a good mission, responsibilities I don’t find particularly challenging, etc. I was actually sort of excited after the mental exertion of grad school to be able to turn off at the end of the day and spend my free time on things that I like. Working to live instead of living to work, all that.

    Only… I’m finding it basically impossible to motivate myself to pursue any of my hobbies or side projects at the end of the day. It’s like after getting into the slightly blank headspace that lets me get through a day doing things I don’t care about, I can’t snap back into caring about things and pursuing my interests. I get that general COVID malaise certainly isn’t helping here, but… any tips? How do I get some energy and passion back for myself at the end of a boring day?

    1. Seven If You Count Bad John*

      Transitions are hard. I’d start by doing something like deciding in advance what your after-work activity is going to be. Then actually do it whether you feel like it or not. Maybe have a snack or something as an in-between transitional moment. If you get started on your activity, you might find your interest wakes back up. If not, well, you tried, and you can have a nap instead :)

  115. Sleepy*

    A weird, minor issues…I keep giving cold, businesslike replies to warm emails at work–emails that ask about me personally, etc, and I ignore the chitchat. It’s not intentional, I’m just sort of a zombie emailing on autopilot sometimes. I wouldn’t worry normally but now…all my contact with people is via email. Do I need to reply again, more warmly?

    2. Alex*

      I have this same problem!

      I do not reply a second time because I feel like that would be weird. Unless you are already on pretty friendly terms.

    3. LGC*

      Probably not. But honestly? This is going to be a spicy take, but it seems like the problem is you’re replying too quickly to emails! If you want to give a more considered response to things that aren’t time sensitive, and that are more personal, set those aside for later when you’re not an email zombie.

      (Signed: someone who had an email problem themselves, although far more severe than yours. I eventually learned that I did not need to immediately respond if I was mad, even if it was a Very Important Person.)

  116. Alex*

    I’m really late to the party but maybe someone will see this.

    I’ve been working on a big project for almost a year now. This project is not really my job. I was specifically invited to work on this project because they needed input regarding Teapot Design, and while my manager is the Teapot Design manager, it was well known that she is…sort of incompetent. I am one of only two people on the entire Project team who is not a manager, and literally the only reason I’m there is because my boss is bad at her job.

    My boss is *also* supposed to be on the Project team. Officially, she was assigned the Teapot Design parts of the project, and I was cast as “support.” However, she has, either explicitly or by avoidance, let all of the Teapot Design part of the project fall to me. All of it. She hasn’t done a single thing. She hasn’t even kept up with what is going on.

    Today I mentioned some Teapot Design parts of the project weren’t going very well–that several problems had cropped up. These problems are documented in several places, and she would know that if she had been doing even a small percentage of her job. I am not in charge of keeping track of problems, although I do sometimes participate in solving them, especially when they are related to Teapot Design, because I’m essentially the only teapot designer who is active on the team.

    When she heard that things weren’t going perfectly, she asked me to pull together a special list of all the problems I’d found. This is going back several months now. To do this would take a lot of time, and I’m really angry that she has completely dropped the ball on everything, leaving me to do all the work, and now wants me to spend my time managing the fact that she hasn’t been paying attention. In truth, identifying and reporting problems with this project having to do with Teapot Design was HER job, and now I not only have to do it for her, I have to go back and report to her exactly everything that she has missed out on simply because she checked out.

    I’m so angry that I feel I can’t respond yet. I am taking the weekend to think about how I want to approach this, but at the moment I have nothing nice to say at all.

    The only comfort I have is that I know for a fact that people have noticed her failure to participate and be useful to this project, and have actually spoken to me about it (whether or not they should have).

    1. Dumpster Fire*

      I think that Problem 1 on my list would be “Manager has dropped the ball for months and doesn’t have a list of the rest of the problems.”

    2. Juneybug*

      I would do the list because it’s CYA for you.
      Or you could look at it as it will give you satisfaction to show her all of the problems.
      Or maybe the list will allow you to discuss if this project even needs to exist anymore.
      Good luck!

  117. West*

    Just wondering how the anyone checks the mail since most of us started working from home due to COVID. I go in once a week on Fridays to do a task that only can be done in the office and check the mail then and one of our factory workers checks one other day that neither one of us in the department I am in is in the office. Before, mail would pile up week after week and would sometimes take an hour to get through, which wasn’t fun – I will only admit that much.

    How about you? How does it work in your workplace?

    1. Retired*

      Doesn’t sound like you get a lot of mail if it only takes an hour to go through weeks of mail. For my daughter there was one person who came in every day. And that was her. She answered the phone, dealt with the mail and received the packages. The rest of her time was spent doing various projects.

    2. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      We set up a temporary change of address w the post office, to a branch office that has staff coming in regularly.

    3. Chaordic One*

      Big office here. We have several employees who work in the mail room who open everything and direct it to where it needs to go. Most of it gets scanned and saved as PDFs and is entered into our computer system so people working from home can deal with it. (I don’t think the mail room does a great job of scanning and directing the mail, but they’re rushed.)

  118. MakingDecisionsIsDifficult*

    I am the primary income earner in my family and carry all the benefits through my job. I finished cancer treatment a year ago. My highest risk of recurrence is in the first five years. My current job has some major downsides, but great benefits (awesome health insurance, life insurance, disability insurance, 5 weeks vacation). I have an offer for a Joni would enjoy a lot more, but with substantially worse benefits (high deductible insurance,2 weeks vacation, no life or disability insurance, use it or lose it vacation and sick days). I would love to accept the offer but it seems to risky for my family. What would you do?

    1. fhqwhgads*

      I would not give up this:
      awesome health insurance, life insurance, disability insurance, 5 weeks vacation
      For this:
      high deductible insurance,2 weeks vacation, no life or disability insurance, use it or lose it vacation and sick days

      Unless the pay were substantially more – as in enough to pay for all the insurances I’d not be getting, plus more to compensate for the lack of time off.

      But given your potential medical needs, I probably wouldn’t make the move at all. I’d keep looking for another enjoyable job that has something a lot closer to the current benefits.

    2. Good health to you*

      So sorry to hear about your illness.
      That is a tough one, since you would enjoy the new job more. But if you have a relapse or something else happens in your family, you will be in trouble. Also even if nothing does happen, you may well spend the next few years stressing about what will happen. You may do that anyway at this job, but at least you won’t be stressed over lack of resources to deal with it. As hard as it is sometimes to stay put when something better is there, I would do so if it were me.

    4. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      Believe me, I understand your situation (only minus the major health situation). I’ve been looking to move for some time, but while my employer doesn’t pay the greatest, the benefits are top-notch and I’ve been there long enough to get a lot of PTO. Hard to give up. I got REALLY excited about a recent opportunity in a field I’d love to move to, but reluctantly passed on it because the benefit package was a slim shadow of what I now have. And you have a family to consider.

      I can’t tell anyone what to do, but I keep myself going by believing there are other opportunities and I’ll find the right one. Best of luck with your health situation and search for a job that will make you happy.

    5. Weekend Please*

      For me it would really come down to how bad your current job is. If you are miserable going to work, then it may be worth it to have a drastic drop in benefits. If it is ok but not exciting, it is probably better to stay where you are and keep looking for something better.

  119. Middle Manager*

    I’m probably too late to get a response, but trying anyway. I have an in person interview next week (I’m desperate to leave my job, I was almost out last year and then the job I thought I had fell victim to a covid hiring freeze). I’m a very dressy person in general, like I’ve still worn make up and professional dresses daily during WFH. But I literally cannot find jackets/blazers/suits that fit me off the rack. I’ve thought about getting stuff tailored at some point, but can’t make that happen before this interview. So, my question, is it completely required to wear a blazer to an interview? If I wore the type of professional, tailored, dress that you’d see, say the white house press secretary wear, can I call it a day? I have a few jackets, but I feel so uncomfortable/unattractive in them that I really don’t feel like it would boost my confidence level or my impression on other people to wear them, even if it’s the norm.

    1. SG*

      This depends a lot on the industry and even the specific office culture, but for the vast majority of job interviews, a professional, tailored dress should be fine. A standard guideline is to dress one step up from what the day-to-day dress code would be for the job. I also think people are likely to be a bit more gracious around expectations for interview dress during these pandemic times when it’s difficult to shop, let alone get things tailored.
      But if you’re in an industry where business formal is the norm (i.e. suits), then it’s a safer bet wear a jacket. I also recommend doing a bit of homework if possible — does the hiring business have a website where there are photos that might give you hint as to the dress code?
      But being comfortable and feeling confident are so very important. So the dress would probably be just fine! If you dress it up with a nice silk accent scarf, that would add some additional professional polish.
      On a side note, I tried on dozens of jackets off the rack and found nothing that even remotely fit (not even well enough to get it tailored!), and then I found a jacket at Talbot’s that fit beautifully! It was more than I wanted to spend, but it has served me well for 5 years worth of interviews and promotions and has paid for itself many times over. I am short/petite with a large bust, which may not be your build, but Talbots might be worth trying. I had pretty much lost hope and felt like I struck gold!
      Anyway, good luck with your interview!

      1. Middle Manager*

        Thanks! I’m not petite, but my bust is the main culprit (along with short arms). Anything that fits in the bust looks like I’m swimming everywhere else. I’ll have to give Talbots a try. I’d pay more for one or two decent jackets that work and last me long term for sure! I’ve wasted so much money on ones that don’t work at all already.

        1. Weekend Please*

          I have a similar problem. I found luck looking at jackets that aren’t designed to button and have a softer fabric so that it can drape a little better.

        2. SG*

          I have short arms too! And bust was the main culprit for me as well, along with the shoulder area which is a little large compared to the rest of my frame.
          FYI, Talbots runs big; I bought a full size down from my normal size.

        3. Who Plays Backgammon?*

          If you’re paying for quality ready made, have you looked into the cost of having a basic blazer or two made? It’s been some years, but a friend with fit problems used to cut to the chase and have some of her things made by a dressmaker.

          1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

            Sorry, meant to say she told me that it didn’t cost that much compared to the quality she would have wanted to buy off the rack.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      It depends on your industry, but no you do not have to wear a blazer to an interview. I often don’t, but then I work on marketing which is more “creative” versus something like finance or law.

      Think blazer-like. Perhaps a button cardigan to replace a blazer. Or layer a blouse under a sleeveless sheath dress. How about an open blazer or vest you could belt? If you google something like “no blazer outfits” you’ll likely find some fashion ideas that still look very professional and polished.

    3. CA Casual*

      Naturally, this will vary depending on your industry and location. I’m in California and have worked in higher-education administration and tech; I’ve never worn a blazer to an interview. I go for a nice button-down collared shirt, slacks, and flats. I think maybe once I wore a silky, swoopy tank top with a nice cardigan on top. The advice to “dress one step up from what the day-to-day dress code would be for the job” is a good rule of thumb.

  120. Office Grunt*

    Vent:

    I’m two years into my first gov job, and the glacial pace of hiring is already about to drive me out.

    I’ve applied to multiple positions at a specific higher title since September, have an A grade for that title, nothing but rave reviews in my current post from boss/big boss/bigger boss, and have heard nothing regarding an interview. What’s especially frustrating is that one of the positions is within the agency I’m at, just at HQ.

    I understand that COVID is slowing down a lot, and my state is also not in the best financial shape, but the open position within my agency has been open for over a year now.

    I also know that positions are being filled within the agency and there is some shortcutting happening: shortly before I applied, someone within my unit applied for a role within a different unit of our agency in the same building, was offered the role without an interview, and has already returned to his old role with us.

  121. Squirrely*

    Super late to this Friday’s party, but was told today that my org is looking to promote me with our next cycle in July. I can’t share this publicly yet, so sharing into this part of the internetverse!

  122. Message or Not to Message*

    Hi,
    Last month I have found a job after a long job search. I have sent out a lot of resumes to a lot of companies. Two weeks ago a company leave me a message stating they would like to talk with me about scheduling an interview. I was already settling at my new job and was having a really busy week. I have not replied to this HR Rep for two weeks. They probably might think I have gone AWOL.

    This company that I didn’t respond back to is also a good company. I don’t want to be blacklisted from their future hiring. So should I call that HR Rep back to apologized for not answering their message? Or do I just leave it alone, since it has been so long? Would I even get blacklisted or be remembered as the one who went AWOL?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I think a gracious email is always welcome. I don’t think you’re chances would be affected either way, but I think it’s the professional thing to do.

    2. SG*

      Yes, call or email and apologize — it can’t hurt, but do it *now* — 2 weeks isn’t too long, but I would say 3-4 weeks is pushing the boundary.

  123. Oatmeal Baby Bump*

    I wanted to post an update to my post a couple of months back, the tl;dr of which was: My colleague/team member lacks initiative and second guesses herself a lot, how is she gonna survive when I go on a long maternity leave? What should I do?

    People rightly said to bring it up to my boss, which I did! Multiple times. At first she seemed unconcerned but as the months went by but during another on-on-one she brought it up herself and I told it had got a little bit better but not significantly so. Basically my colleague Janetha did not seem the type to go above and beyond on anything, and while that was okay in most cases, in some cases our job was to forward things to people in our org and “lighten their load” with a little due diligence of our own. So as opposed to just chucking the email to somebody, I might cross-reference our database to see previous issues from the same client and write up a little preface to the forwarded email, “Hi, I forwarded this to you because you dealt with this client last June with their grain processor issue, task number 98587 in our database and this looks to be a similar issue.” Janetha wasn’t doing that and I wasn’t sure if that was because she didn’t think she could or she didn’t think it was a part of the job.

    I had some brief talks and cheerleading moments with her along the way, as did my boss, though less so. I told her to reference the instructions if unsure and to make her own best call when the instructions didn’t cover something, and that she should and could trust her judgment at this point. I told her she’s doing great and any “mistake” she might make is kind of minor, we’re not saving lives here. She still sometimes hit me with the “This is a weird request” when something came up that wasn’t similar to most of the stuff we process. I did my best to stay out of it, let her make her own calls and not over-advise.

    We had a brief period of increased traffic, which was good in the sense that all I was able to do was delegate. “Can you check the Grain Order inbox while I deal with the traffic in New Clients inbox?” and then just focusing on the work, no time for questions. During that time, if she had questions, I literally had to say, “Sorry I have no time to look at that, deal with it the best way you can.”

    Unfortunately my replacement was hired but couldn’t start until February, when I am already off on maternity leave (I had vacation time I had to use up, so I am off quite early). On the other hand, maybe Janetha will be helped by having to guide somebody else in the job. I know my boss can provide the basic instructions on the job (it’s not rocket science, there’s just ways of doing it Really Well as opposed to just doing it okay, like most jobs) but the details will be left up for Janetha to help the newbie with. What sucks is my boss messed up in that Janetha will be alone for a while, with only coverage for breaks and lunches. I am worried having to deal with the traffic all on her own will lead her to second-guess herself again, make her anxious and want to quit. But I’m hoping it goes well for her.

    Thanks to everybody who commented on my original post and initial follow up. I’m off to prep for the baby full-time, and relax plenty as well.

  124. Hiding from my Boss*

    We’ve continued to serve our clients well during Covid, by doing a lot of things differently, especially w/ technology. Client response has mostly been very positive. My part in the innovation has been a daily mountain of data entry to track what everyone else is doing. It’s tedious and boring, nothing close to what I’m capable of.

    Recently Boss said that after we return to the office full time she wants to continue this system because it makes work smoother for everyone else. I was crushed. She says this is very important work, but it’s only. data. entry. To me it’s like the old line about how you’re too valuable to lose, that really means “Forget about promotions, because it would be inconvenient for me to find another shit worker to do your job.” What’s worse, the company recently started a big initiative to “grow talent from within.” But I’m only going backward.

    Does my boss think I don’t see what’s happening to my “career,” or does she simply not care?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      In situations like this, I’m trying to remind myself of Hanlon’s razor, “never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by [incompetence].”

      Have you talked to your boss about how much data entry this is on you, what it takes you away from with regards to other work, and how professionally dissatisfied this would make you? And did she specifically say she wanted *you* to do this work?

      Start there, as she just might be seeing, “This system is so great!”, and not thinking, “Hm, how will this impact the person who has to this system?”

      1. Weekend Please*

        Yep. Point out to her that once you go back to the office, you won’t have time to do the data entry in addition to your normal tasks. She may not realize how much time this takes you. Then you can ask to have a conversation about how to implement this when you are back in the office.

    2. It happens*

      Sounds a little frustrating- but solvable. Boss loves the order your system brought to the work, great. Why do you have to do the data entry? Can you rejigger the system a smidge so that everyone is responsible for their own? Or find a system that can figure out the information with no extra entry at all? Or move it to a task manager (like Asana or Monday.com)? Or have boss hire a part time person for a few hours a day or something so you can do the high-value work- which you are clearly capable of because you built this system that makes everyone work better.

  125. Happy Raptor*

    I recently took on a role at a new company, replacing a beloved, tenured employee who transitioned into another position at the same company. My new boss acknowledges that Beloved Employee is fun and adored there, but he left a massive mess of work behind him and isn’t going to clean a bit of it. I’ve tried asking him for help, but he is often condescending, sassy, and too busy. Boss hopes that I can bring some professionalism to my new role, sort things out, and utilize data better. Good plan!

    However, I don’t even know where to start. The job I’m in had no job description, there are a bunch of unrelated responsibilities to get done, and the person I am replacing hated detail and data and left no training or templates behind. Essentially, he’s taking his job knowledge with him.

    Any advice for those jumping into a new role, who have to balance the humility of learning a new role, the need to build structure, a boss awaiting metrics and improvement, and the attitudes of staff who enabled and enjoyed your predecessor? I don’t know where to start without offending anyone or stepping on toes.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I may have been in a similar situation in the past, minus the appreciative/aware manager. I think your manager is where you start.

      Ask for a 1:1 meeting dedicated to this topic. Lay out for BossPerson all of the responsibilities and tasks you’re being asked to cover, plus some idea of how much work it would take to set up systems and processes to clean up and prevent messiness in the future. Ask BossPerson, “What do you want me to prioritize and in what order?”

      Then, ask that *BossPerson* communicates to the rest of the team something like, “Happy Raptor will be working on these tasks in this priority order. I know there will be some transition roughness, but the systems we’re putting in place will make us stronger. If there are issues or blockages, let both Happy Raptor and me know, and we can try to work something out.”

      Next, if you don’t already have a 1:1 with BossPerson at least every other week, set one up and have this transition be a standing item, to discuss progress, roadblocks, etc.

      Finally, document what you started with, the process you went through to clean it up, and where this ended up. This will be an important history to have on hand for your performance review and future job applications.

      Good luck! Hopefully your boss and colleagues will appreciate this in the end.

    2. Weekend Please*

      First, you need to meet with your boss to determine priorities. Tell him you need a job description to define the scope of what you are trying to do. Then let the rest of the staff know what your new job description is and how you and your boss have decided to change your role. If you are worried about badmouthing Beloved Employee, you can always say that Beloved Employee had a unique set of skills and institutional knowledge that allowed them to perform the role differently and expand it to include unrelated responsibilities which really can’t be replicated in a new hire.

    3. LQ*

      I’m going to suggest something a little different, which is…don’t ask your boss. Try to …essentially scan through the stuff and figure out (you have to kind of go with your gut and experience on this) which is the most bang for your buck, which area you’ll be the most different (welcomed so) from the Beloved Employee.

      From what you’ve said here maybe some way to show to your boss/others who are consumers of the work you’re supposed to do what thing you’re working on and where it’s at. This is especially helpful if you’re doing things that are quick turn around tasks. I wouldn’t do this if it were year long projects, but if you have tickets, or smaller breaks of work and you can use a somewhat transparent project management tool that would be where I would start. This is likely (based on what you said) to be so radically different from what the other person did that it won’t feel toe steppy, you can say it’s to help you because gee golly did BE have a lot on his plate and you sure don’t know how he did it so you’re trying to wrap your head around it.

      Once you’ve got that then you can start slotting work in and work with your manager on priorities, but you’ve bought a little space and framework for those conversations with your boss and others.

      The other would be something BE hated and avoided and really needs to get done that you think you could crush fairly well. Grab that and just make it so. BE will be happy because they hated and avoided, others who needed it done will be happy, you’ll have a big success under your belt to stand on.

  126. SummerBreeze*

    I’ve been in-house on a communications team my entire career. I believe I’m about to get an offer from an agency this week. Has anyone moved from in-house to agency who could offer any insights? I’ve talked to close colleagues who’ve been at agencies before but welcome more thoughts.

    If it helps, it’s a small, niche agency that was recently acquired by a well known firm, but is retaining its brand name and independence.

  127. Anon searcher*

    Just wondering if I did the right thing.
    I had an in-person interview on Thursday. There were appealing things about the job, but also a number of indicators that it wasn’t for me. The biggest one was that they didn’t take masking very seriously. One interviewer didn’t wear one at all. I didn’t mention it up front, but eventually commented on their relaxed mask stance and got a dismissive answer.
    Late Friday afternoon they asked me to come back for a second interview on Monday morning, at which point I declined and removed myself from consideration, saying it wasn’t the right fit for me at this time.
    I don’t regret bowing out, but we never got to a discussion of pay (the first interview had a bit of an awkward end and I couldn’t find a way to bring it up). It would have been valuable information, but I didn’t want to go back in person to get it, and I wanted to wrap things up by end of business, so I didn’t get into it over email.
    Should I have tried to ask about salary in an email? Gone back for another conversation knowing I didn’t really want the job? Should I have told them that masks were the reason I bowed out?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Eh! Don’t second guess yourself here.
      Even if the job paid well, would that have mattered given their careless attitude?

      Sometimes our gut feeling is right on about these things. If it didn’t feel right, it probably wasn’t right.

  128. Tech Writer*

    I’m not sure if this is the right place for it, and it’s past the weekend thread but I was wondering about something. I signed a letter of intent with Company A, and sent it back to Company A’s HR and heard nothing back. I have an upcoming interview with Company B.
    If I do get the position with Company B, how would I let Company A know that I’ve accepted a position with another company after signing the letter of intent? Is there anything I should be aware of during this time?

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