open thread – January 8-9, 2021

by Alison Green on January 8, 2021

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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{ 1,168 comments }

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  1. Hogsmeade AirBNB*

    Sending my support and hugs (if wanted) to everyone finding it really, really hard to concentrate on work in the last few days.

    2. Web Crawler*

      Thank you for the socially-distant hug! (Although my concentation is 90% awful back pain and only 10% compulsuvely checking the news.)

    4. OyHiOh*

      My boss is a history nerd and has an all-but-dissertation in US history, focus on 20th century. I stumbled through work yesterday morning and finally went to his office in the afternoon to just debrief for a minute. Ten minutes (COVID precautions in place, y’all) helped tremendously and I was able to focus better after that.

      1. TJ*

        If you don’t mind my asking, what did the debrief involve? Just you venting to him or did he help by giving you historical context or legal insight for the situation or something like that?

    5. Sylvan*

      Thank you. <3 It hasn't been easy to focus.

      I know we have some DC residents here – I hope they're all safe and doing well.

      1. Kate H*

        Same, but from 3pm. I should’ve taken PTO but I thought I would get back to work. I had a video meeting at four and I didn’t take in a word of what was said. Yesterday was almost as bad.

    8. Ama*

      I really appreciated that our CEO sent out an email basically saying it was okay to not be okay. (She was an intern on Capitol Hill many years ago so she might have been the least okay of any of us.)

      1. JustaTech*

        I actually had a semi-social meeting with our CEO on Thursday morning and he said exactly nothing.

        Then later in the meeting someone said something about how “company culture can’t be all talk” and I thought “yup, like failing to say a single thing, sure makes it seem like all the talk this summer about race and stuff was just talk and no lasting action.”

        1. RebelwithMouseyHair*

          Yeah, saying nothing is really insensitive. I haven’t yet got over the fact that not a single person at the head office in the north of France bothered to ask those of us in the Paris office whether we were OK after the attacks in 2015. They saw we were online and assumed that meant we were OK. We were not OK. Every single one of us had spent Friday worrying about our loved ones – like my daughter had told us she was going to the worst hit area that night for drinks with friends. The minute she learned of the attacks (maybe half an hour after it all started), she sent us as a message to let us know that she was at her friend’s place and would be staying put, but there were so many messages flying about that night we only got it about ten hours later. My colleagues all had similar stories.
          By the afternoon, after getting a message from my immediate boss where she failed to mention it, I wrote back saying that no, I wasn’t available for a meeting, I was still in a state of shock, compounded with being upset that none of our colleagues cared enough to check up on us. She wrote back that they had had a minute of silence to honour the victims. Yeah, and what about those of us who are still alive, don’t we matter?

      2. Mimmy*

        Major kudos to your boss – I don’t ever like to be told that you need to get over it. I am really not okay this week for several reasons, and hearing this from others would mean the world to me.

    9. extra anon for this*

      I am a Washingtonian, and while I think everyone across the country was stressed for very valid reasons on Wednesday, trying to work through sirens and commotion outside my window definitely added several layers of anxiety. It was not a productive day, but fortunately my organizational leadership has been understanding. We are normally essential but preemptively made the smart decision to have my team work remotely Wednesday. Still had to go in Tuesday and Thursday for reasons directly related to the riots which was rough (we provide some non-law enforcement crisis services), but fortunately we are all okay. Rattled, but okay.

    11. NopeNopeNope*

      I was in a meeting when it happened. A colleague in the meeting is originally from Iran, and she said she always thought Americans took our democracy for granted, that it was more fragile then we realized.

    13. Doug Judy*

      It is so hard. Even harder when I work closely with people who support treason. I don’t know how I can deal with working with them in person again. Hopefully that’s a long way off but I am having a real hard time knowing who they are on the inside.

    14. Mantis Toboggan, MD*

      Omg this week has been horrible with the underlying anxiety of falling behind on top of regular anxiety from being glued to the news

    15. Notthemomma*

      I was lucky to be leading a training yesterday and this morning, but as one attendee said, “this week has already been a long year.”

      For all who are dealing with this more directly than I; actual prayers, tight virtual hugs, good vibes, and a good beverage.

      2. Malarkey01*

        I said as much as 2020 felt like the longest year ever, the first full week of 2021 felt longer than all of 2020.

        I have never felt this completely wiped out. I want to crawl into bed for a week and have a good cry. Brighter days are coming and we all need to be as kind as possible to each other while we work to get there.

        1. JustaTech*

          One of the better things I made for myself over the pandemic was a literal nest on the floor. A bright cushion big enough to curl up on, a sweatshirt-material blanket and a pillow from and old T-shirt. Sometimes I just take a break from the world in my nest.

        2. Keymaster of Gozer*

          Not ashamed to say I spent part of last week crying ugly tears as the UK went back into full lockdown (pretty much everything shut and ordered to stay home) and then I saw BBC news….I can’t cope.

          But, I try to remember that the vaccines are being rolled out, they appear to be effective against the new strain appearing here, there’s actions being taken against a lot of bad stuff happening again.

          There’s still a visible end point to all this. There’s hope we didn’t have in 2020. I’ve got hope.

      3. tink*

        I saw someone say something to the effect “Ok, I’ve tried the 7-day free trial of 2021 and I’d like to return it, please.”

    16. A Poster Has No Name*

      Oh, yeah, productivity was pretty much at an all-time low this week.

      Hope everyone is staying safe & sane this week.

    17. Cendol*

      Seriously. I have a project due today and lost two days to doomscrolling/lying down on the floor trying not to hyperventilate.

      1. Anax*

        Yuuuup, same. Project due yesterday, demo today, and about five other tickets I need to address by the end of the day, and I’m so tired.

    19. Quinalla*

      This is definitely me, focus is very hard this week for a lot of reasons :( Thanks for the support and hugs!

    20. North European*

      Thank you! I am not even American, but my anxiety has been bad the past two days. I have nightmares. Today my first thought when I woke up was: ”I wonder whether he has pressed the nuclear button while we were sleeping” :-(
      I grew up in the 1980s, when fear for 3rd WW and nuclear destruction were real.

      1. Anax*

        Some sort of reassuring news there – that’s definitely being considered, and steps are being taken to prevent any military/nuclear craziness.

        Per the New York Times, “Ms. Pelosi [one of the top Democrat legislators] also said she had spoken with Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, about “preventing an unstable president from initiating military hostilities or accessing the launch codes.” A spokesman for General Milley, Col. Dave Butler, confirmed that the two had spoken and said the general had “answered her questions regarding the process of nuclear command authority.””

    21. Momma Bear*

      Thanks. I had an informal touch base meeting with a volunteer group I am in. We all just basically needed to be like “Did that just happen??” The kids are scared, too. That was hard. To be honest but also trying to be reassuring.

    22. Not So NewReader*

      Not since the WTC have I seen so many ashen faces and tears at work.

      I’ll accept the virtual hugs and support, Hogs and I will pay them forward to anyone who wants them.

      I sat there thinking that day. And one of the 10k thoughts I had was, “I hope that Alison is able to get her forum up on Friday.”

      Not only am I grateful for our democracy, but I am grateful for all that is allowed to exist in it, such as AAM and this group of people here.

    23. It's not ok.*

      Thank you! Much needed! I’ve barely slept, have been reading news for the past… forever… and I’m dealing with coworkers pulling their same petty bullshit. Can this week just be over already?

    24. Erika22*

      Grateful for this solidarity. As an expat in the UK, it was weird starting my Thursday completely anxious and exhausted and not having my colleagues feeling the same way, like I was overreacting or in an alternate universe or something. Luckily I have a couple of professional colleagues who are also expats who I was meeting that day anyway, so I didn’t feel completely alone. Our CEO published an internal letter that was frankly – to me – a weak response. I was gratified by a couple of people commenting on his letter that they would have liked to see an explicit stance from him internally at least, but the majority of comments were “grateful for this statement” or something similar – so again, felt like I was experiencing something completely different, like I shouldn’t have been on the verge of tears all day. *internet hugs*

    27. Captain Marvel*

      Thank you. I had a bit of scare on Wednesday when my partner (who has to go into the office) didn’t come home at his usual time and wasn’t picking up. Couldn’t concentrate on any work until he made it home with the explanation that he was driving his co-worker home so they didn’t have to take the metro and would get back before curfew.

  2. LTL*

    Do you feel that it’s harder to work a job or harder to job hunt? Which takes up more energy? Or is it the same for you? My sister said that a full time job hunt was more draining than a full time job so now I’m curious.

    1. Hogsmeade AirBNB*

      Hmm… I think there are too many variables either way. Depends on the job, depends on the hunt.

    3. What's in a name?*

      I would say the job hunt is because it is not something I enjoy or I find to be part of my expertise.

      1. JustaTech*

        Exactly. I feel competent at my work. I don’t feel competent at job hunting. (The drumbeat of “nope, nope, nope” when just looking at postings exhausts me, even if it’s me saying “I don’t want that” rather than “I can’ do that”.)

        1. RebelwithMouseyHair*

          oh yeah. Everyone is asking for somebody dynamic, upbeat, enthusiastic… I can be all those things if you give me interesting work, and I’m interested in a ton of different things, but it’s something that will come naturally, it’s not something I can drum up. It is indeed exhausting.

    4. Weekend Please*

      I think the fact that I am paid to work but not to job hunt makes a full time job hunt more stressful because of the inherent insecurity.

      1. LizzE*

        This. Even if your job sucks, there is something freeing about not worrying about when the next paycheck comes in. There are probably some rare exceptions where your job is so toxic and you have the necessary funds to quit without something lined up that when you do get around to jump hunting, it might end up being therapeutic. But again, that comes down to your financial situation.

    5. violet04*

      My husband was job searching for a few months after being laid off. He found the job hunt more emotionally draining because he was worried about being unemployed and wasn’t sure how long it would last. He works in facility maintenance so the actual work he does takes more physical energy, but it’s one of those jobs that he can literally leave at the office before coming home.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Agreed. You can put everything you have into a job search but have nothing to show for it. If you get interviews, then it’s easier to maintain hope and stay motivated. But if you get a one or two week spell with no responses, eesh, it’s really hard to keep investing the time in cover letters and crafted resumes.
        When you are working, you can see the process moving forward. But job searching is like shoveling coal into a void, you don’t know what is happening on the other side.

        1. RebelwithMouseyHair*

          Yeah, and even if stuff is not moving forward at work, you’re at least getting paid.

    6. Okumura Haru*

      The hunt was worse for me. It felt like an impossible, sisyphean task.
      My job has it’s frustrations, but it’s better than constantly hunting.

    7. LogicalOne*

      For me, job hunting would be more draining. With having a full-time job, you at least for the most part know what to do and how to do the job and there’s the financial security as well. With job hunting, some may not have financial security which adds stress and drains you quicker. Worrying about money alone is enough stress. So yeah, IMO job hunting is more draining. (assuming they are actually job hunting). Good luck to your sister!

    8. Colette*

      I’d say the job hunt is more emotionally draining – you control very little of the process and it’s difficult to feel like you’ve actually accomplished something.

      But a job can be more physically demanding, and of course there can be days at work that are emotionally draining.

    9. RagingADHD*

      Job hunt, absolutely.

      Because you always feel you could/should be doing more, but in reality there’s so much that you can’t control. A lot of it comes down to timing – other people’s timing.

      You’re constantly making decisions and choosing priorities based on little or no useful information. And every choice feels like it’s high stakes, but you have no way of really knowing what the stakes actually are.

      You rarely end a day feeling like you accomplished anything constructive, no matter how many tasks you did. And it is true that most of those tasks will lead to nothing. But you have to do them anyway, because you don’t know which are worthwhile and which aren’t.

      I suppose there are jobs like that, but in my book they would be absolute nightmares.

    10. Beth Jacobs*

      Although a job hunt doesn’t take up 40+ hours a week, I would agree that it’s much more emotionally draining. You’re constantly asking people to hire you, which is effectively asking them to find you worthy. And most of the time, they don’t.

    11. D3*

      Physically? Mentally? Full time job. At least for me. The daily grind, the monotony, the commute.

      Emotionally? Psychologically? Job hunt. The constant putting yourself out there and either getting flat out rejected, or getting your hopes up and then dashed is just awful. As is the lack of income and not knowing when it might end.

      YMMV

    12. Rayray*

      Job hunting is especially draining emotionally and mentally, you feel like you aren’t good enough for anything. You get rejected over and over again. You’ll have interviews that go really
      Badly. You’ll apply for a job that sounds great, only to get rejected but asked if you’re interested in a much lower paying job or something you’re simply not interested in. You get ghosted by recruiters and hiring managers even after speaking on the phone, in person, via zoom etc. Every day you log on to your email, you see copy/paste rejections from donotreply. You few tired of having to talk to people about your job search or deal with well-meaning but terrible advice. You feel hopeless at times.

      On the other hand, it can be a much needed break to recharge. I got laid off in March from
      a job that just destroyed me mentally and emotionally. My nearly five month unemployment gave me time to just have a break. I could sleep in, get on a good exercise routine, and just breathe. I had worked for a micromanager and it was so nice to just be able to live and not be nitpicked or yelled at over any move I made. My constant anxiety melted away. My dark circles under my eyes vanished. I was no longer on edge constantly. I never again screamed at the top of my lungs in my car. That stretch of unemployment was difficult in many ways, but was also the best thing that could have happened to me.

      1. Rayray*

        Just to add on, now that I am back to working full time, I definitely have less time to focus on my physical health. However, it’s the least toxic place I have ever worked and once I’m off the clock, I’m just done, unlike unemployment that constantly loomed. So
        Both situations have their food and bad.

    13. Ashloo*

      A necessary job hunt from a layoff or something would give me such massive anxiety, for me that would tip the scales. It would be more about the insecurity than prepping materials. Maybe that’s where she’s coming from?

    14. Anonymous Educator*

      Hunting for a job is 100% more mentally draining. Is it “harder work” or take more hours to do than regular work? No. But a lot of us also look for jobs when we already have jobs, so that is extra work on top of our regular work. And when you’re looking for a job when you don’t have a job, there’s a lot of extra stress of “What if I never find a job? How will I pay my rent/mortgage?”

    15. Paris Geller*

      I think working full-time is harder on average, but the full time job hunt is more *draining*. It’s more emotionally exhausting, whereas any full-time job I’ve ever had is just normal exhausting.

    16. Hotdog not dog*

      It really depends. A job hunt during a pandemic while unemployed and over 50 is its own special circle of Hell…other job searches in the past were actually energizing.

    17. Managerrrr*

      Job hunting is definitely more stressful, with so much start-stop. There’s only so much you can do until next steps are out of your hands and you just have to sit and wait.

    18. Green Goose*

      In my experience the full time job hunt is more draining because it can be pretty demoralizing when it extends longer than planned. There can be financial implications, identity implications and that feeling of repeated rejection can really get to you.

      I’ve also worked at one job at I really disliked, and I still think I was more stressed when job hunting with no job.

    19. Mockingjay*

      The hunt.

      It’s the marketing aspect of job hunting which is difficult for me. I am not a natural salesperson and “selling myself” is extremely difficult. The one good thing about my industry (fed contracting) is that it can be very staid and hiring managers look for qualification matches first (ExToxicJob excepted), so my resume is scripted for that. Interviews tend to focus on specific experience with XYZ system and compliance standards, to which I can speak knowledgably.

    20. MissDisplaced*

      I find an actual job sucks way more energy. It’s an everyday thing. Sometimes even weekends.
      Not that job hunting can’t be, but a job search always felt to me more like fits and starts where you’d be busy some weeks and nothing other weeks.

    21. AnotherLibrarian*

      Job hunting is probably among the most demoralizing awful experiences, especially if it drags on and on. So, yeah, I don’t know which is more draining, because there are super toxic jobs out there. However, I would generally take employment over job hunting most of the time.

    22. Chasethedanger*

      For me the job hunt is harder because I have less control over the situation. I can control my CV and how I behave in the interview. I can’t control the job market, who will get back to me, if I will fit their culture. I’m doing as much as I can to get hired, sometimes under duress. The full time job I have control over to some extent.

    23. Aphrodite*

      It’s much harder to job hunt. I remember during my 18-month hunt wishing I had to get up on Monday mornings to go to work and envying those who were. And ever since then I have not ever groaned about Monday mornings I actually celebrate them. And I will never take them for granted ever again.

    24. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Job hunting, although I’d say it’s comparable to the first week or so at a new job.

    27. Nacho*

      Harder to job hunt. Job hunting is a process of constantly putting yourself out there and being told you’re not good enough, or somethings learning you’re not even good enough to be told you’re not good enough when nobody gets back to you. Every job you don’t get is 100% wasted effort since you get neither money nor experience from the failure.

    28. Jennifer*

      This past year – the job was more stressful because they weren’t taking COVID seriously. Looking for a job at my own pace while getting unemployment was peaceful.

    29. OTGW*

      Job hunt. I…. am displeased with my job (customer service) but at least it’s contained. But job hunting never ends. And also I fcking hate cover letters. Literally the worst thing ever they need to be erased from existence

      1. MacGillicuddy*

        If you’re unemployed, the job hunt is more stressful. You don’t know how long it will last. You have to keep it going even if you’re getting interviews, because it takes too long to “load the pipeline” if you stop initiating new applications.

        At least in a crazy job you can usually pretend you’re an anthropologist and get through each day. Meanwhile there’s a paycheck and hopefully health insurance.

  3. Yellow Warbler*

    Conversation had during my year-end review:

    Boss: “So your adjustment for next year will be X%, which bring you to [salary update].”

    Me: “Okay, thanks. So what does ‘adjustment’ actually mean, is this considered a raise?”

    Boss: “There are cases where people’s salaries are reduced, so that’s why they prefer to call it an ‘adjustment’, because it can go either way.”

    Me: *long awkward pause* “…so how does that happen?”

    Boss: “It really depends on the individual circumstance.”

    Me: *staring in nervous confusion*

    Boss: *quiet, giving away nothing*

    Me: “…okay.”

    Boss: “On to your performance goals.”

    This is the third year I’ve asked her to clarify if the money increase is due to merit or COL, and she always plays word games and avoids the question…but this is the first I’ve heard of the possibility of money actually being taken away. I have no idea how, why, or what would warrant it. She wouldn’t tell me. We have to obsessively track our time using a PM system, so I assume crunching those numbers would be involved, but I couldn’t get verification.

    WHY am I not allowed to know if I’m earning a true raise, or if this is just due to inflation, FFS? Anyone have insight, similar stories, advice?

    1. JokeyJules*

      i would venture to guess that if they never say “it’s a performance raise” or “its a COL raise”, it reduces the ability for employees to discuss that aspect of their pay. similar for the reductions. if someone gets a 5% “adjustment” and someone else gets an 11% adjustment, who’s to say either person for something for COL vs performance base raise.

    2. it_guy*

      Actual conversation:
      “We were going to give your “Excellent” on your performance review, but that would make your bonus too big. So we are going to give you an “Average” so more people can have a larger bonus.”

      1. D3*

        Similarly “I’d love to rate your performance as excellent, because it is, but I’m not allowed to ever give anyone a top rating, because management wants to make sure you always know there’s room for improvement.”

        1. Dobermom*

          Yep! This just happened to me. My boss had LITERALLY no recommendations for improving my performance. But, “We have a scale of 1-5, but the highest I am allowed to give is 3. So 3 is ‘Meets Expectations,’ but you exceed expectations. But I can’t really give you that.”

          1. Chasethedanger*

            This happened to me after I had spent 6 months working beyond my role of an administrator, developing training for the role, delivering it to 30 people, managing those people through a new product launch and solving all roadblocks that came up. Got a meets expectations. I left, and it took 3 people to replace me.

        2. TooCold*

          I worked for a boss like that some time ago. It was entirely HIS choice to rate employees like that. It was frustrating and unfair because other managers did not have that mindset and your raise amount, if any, was tied to your manager’s rating of your work. So we who worked under Mr.-Always-Room-For-Improvement always got pittance raises while people who worked for other managers got much bigger raises. Note to managers: this system is not a way to inculcate loyalty or harder/better work or positive attitudes or teamwork across divisions.

        3. JustaTech*

          I hate that this happens to other people, but at least I’m in good company. Last year the PTB decided that too many people had gotten an “exceeds” (or whatever we call it) *after* they sent out the new compensation letters.
          So HR called my boss (first week of COVID home, too) and told him to take my raise back. He told them that it was their mistake and if they really thought that it was a good idea to take away someone’s raise because the Overlords didn’t like our rating system, then HR could do it because he wasn’t going to. HR caved, I kept my raise, and you bet your buttons I rated myself even higher this year.

        5. TJ*

          I hate that “room for improvement” BS. “Excellent” does not and has never meant “perfect”. If they’re not going to use the top of their scale, they should just chop it off. If my boss says the highest score I can get is a 3 and I do, then I consider myself as getting the highest score even if the scale technically goes up to 5.

      2. Ashloo*

        Happened repeatedly to my dad at Ford when he neared the top of his band. Demoralising to say the least.

      3. Aquawoman*

        Actual conversation: “You got a excellent rather than an outstanding. My rating was reduced for [thing that happened] and it can’t just be my fault.”

      4. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        I’ve had that but without the performance review part since they really don’t tie our review to any pay adjustment it seems. The boss just says he’s been given $X amount in his budget for increases and can allocate it however he wants, so if he gives me x% then one of my coworkers can only have y%; so we all end up just getting even amounts regardless of our performance.

      5. A Teacher*

        Had that happen when I worked for a large physical therapy company-think like one of the largest in the country now– They decided to “change the bonus structure to better reflect the culture” So as someone that had always been in the 90th percentile and one of the top 5 performers in my department, I walked into my annual review to be told I only met 88% of the metric. We hadn’t had a raise in over a year, not even cost of living and our insurance had gone up. Bonsuses were the only way to make extra money. So instead of being eligible for 94% of the bonus, I only got 88% of it. When I asked for clarification or how I could improve I was told, oh you did everything correctly, you don’t have to change anything. Its just harder now.” I started looking that day for a new job. They were shocked I tell you when I left with a very short notice period–that’s a whole other story.

      6. MissDisplaced*

        I had to do that at one place where I managed a small team. We had COLA raises that were 3%-5% but none could be more than 5% So if someone were Excellent across the board they might get 5% but were only barely above the minimum of the worst performer who got 3% no matter what.

        I was told by my manager that rarely are people Excellent in everything. :-(

      7. tangerineRose*

        I don’t get it. I remember one year that was tough for the company I worked for, and the way they dealt with it was to give appropriate reviews and give small bonuses and let us know that was all they could handle then.

      8. RegularInFormAndAuthentic*

        I had a fun one once:
        Boss: “I could have gotten you promoted but I decided not to.”
        Me: “I’m sorry, what?”
        Boss: “If I’d put you up for promotion, it would have gone through.”
        Me: …
        Me: …
        Me: “So, is there anything you wanted me to work on to enable the promotion or any specific feedback or areas of improvement?”
        Boss: “No. No feedback.”

    3. fhqwhgads*

      I don’t know if your employer means it this way, but to me “adjustment” means it’s not a merit raise or a COLA. That sounds to me more like they investigated potential discriminatory pay disparities and the resulting changes were to fix that. Especially since they mentioned it could’ve gone up or down. But if they never use the terms merit raise or COLA, then yeah they might just being ambiguous about all of the Why, but who knows what the motivation is there.

      2. kittymommy*

        Yeah, when my workplace did this it was to try to get more in line (as much as we can being government) with the market averages for that type of position.

      3. AnotherLibrarian*

        Yeah, my former work did this. They didn’t call it raises. because they were dealing with some… issues involving gender and pay in a specific department that ended up filtering out to the whole campus. Such a mess.

    4. hello*

      “This is the third year I’ve asked her to clarify if the money increase is due to merit or COL, and she always plays word games and avoids the question…”

      But you didn’t actually ask that, if your description of the conversation is correct. Have you tried saying the words “is this a merit increase or a cost of living increase?”

      Your boss may be being quiet because she doesn’t want to go into the reasons why people’s salaries might be decreased, whether performance problems or larger budget problems. If what you actually want to know is whether you’re earning a merit increase or cost of living increase, say that. I wouldn’t know what someone means by a “true raise,” so your boss probably doesn’t know either.

      2. Yellow Warbler*

        I said exactly that the first year, and still got a runaround. I’ve tried slightly tweaking my wording in subsequent years, all with no luck.

        1. Yellow Warbler*

          Since what I want to know is how they make the decision, so I can maximize the results, maybe I should instead find a tactful way to ask how to do that? I just want some transparency in the process.

          1. EW*

            Agreed. Obviously it’s a raise, since it’s more money. Being precise about the question might get the info that is being sought.

          2. ReeserchKemust*

            Is your employer large enough to have an HR group that can answer these questions for you? My large corporate employer has internal websites with a wealth of material describing the performance evaluation and rewards processes. They also task supervisors with explaining it (I am one, so I do this), but…YMMV there. At least there are resources from HR.

          3. College Career Counselor*

            Perhaps this makes me cynical (not to mention spectacularly uninformed, as I don ‘t work in your company), but I would speculate that the process used varies from year to year and unfortunately is likely largely outside your direct influence. They have X amount of funds (varying year to year) to distribute/remove to remain within their budgetary goals for the department/unit/firm. So, the performance that might get you 5% one year may only get you 2% in another year (because the pool of $$ was smaller) or the performance that you got you 2% in one year got you 5% in another year (because a bunch of people left, got their salary reduced, etc.). Outside of some serious outliers (“Yellow Warbler saved us millions this year” or “Jimbo in Accounting got fired for embezzlement, so we have his entire salary to spread around since we re-distributed his duties”), you might have the same (or better/lower) performance and not have it tied to a specific outcome.

            All that said, it probably couldn’t hurt to ask for what you can do to improve to be in the running for higher compensation consideration.

          4. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

            I agree with College Career Counselor, they don’t want to commit to a policy/formula or be transparent because they don’t want employees to hold them to it. If they create a formal policy, and don’t apply it evenly, it could put them in legal jeopardy. They like the control of giving or taking away as they see fit.

          5. Claire*

            Ok so it sounds like you have never actually asked what you really want to know which is why there is confusion. Honestly as a manager I would find the questions you asked so far a bit odd and wouldn’t know what you were trying to get at. Obviously I can’t speak to what your company does but at many places these days the answer would be that it’s a combination of both- can take multiple factors into account, such as length of time at company, job performance, how much higher/lower your salary is from the company average for your role, etc. Are you looking to get the exact mathematical formula used? Even your manager wouldn’t know that as it’s probably calculated by some computer program.

      3. LogicalOne*

        I agree with you. The OP should have been more direct and asked if this was a merit or cost of living increase. Though the OP asked, “is this considered a raise?”, I would have pressed on with the question. Whether the OP was nervous, tired, caught offguard, that’s a whole other situation. Sometimes bosses give tone to discussions in hopes that staff might not feel comfortable speaking up because the boss is already in a “mood” per se. I wonder if this situation was like that and the OP was too uncomfortable speaking up, hence their “okay” response. But I would’ve been totally frustrated if I were the OP.

    5. Colette*

      There are lots of reasons for raises, and they’re not all as clearly defined as you seem to want.

      In my experience, large organizations get a target for raises – e.g. 3%. That means 3% of the salary budget across the board is available for raises. Someone might get 0% (if they are at the top of their salary band); someone else might get 10% (because a review of salaries showed that they were underpaid). Neither of those people got a raise specifically for cost of living, but overall the organization raised salaries to meet the rate of inflation.

    6. Cranky Pants*

      This happened during the right-sizing that happened in the early 2000s.
      “Downward adjustment”: individuals so adjusted were frat buddies who had been hired by a (now-fired) good ol’ boy (GOB) – and when corporate did a diversity salary comparison, they found that, on average, GOB hired women at only 60% salary at which he hired men. There was not a sufficient population to compare white vs. non-white.
      Corporate adjusted the individual salaries, but corporate also understood exactly what liability they would incur if the reason for the salary adjustments got out (that is, fines, legal liability for back salaries, etc.) I only found out because someone was indiscreet while talking and walking in the parking garage.

    8. Aly_b*

      If it’s above about 1-2% it’s unlikely to be cost of living, and is either merit or related to moving pay bands or equity. If it’s in that range, it’s likely COL but they may not want to frame it as that since people expect it and if their performance kinda sucks you might just keep them flat for a year. Reducing someone’s pay sucks unless they’re very significantly changing roles. Honestly if your performance rating is good I wouldn’t worry about it, and if you want to advocate for a particular raise then do it regardless!

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Oh, I’d have to reframe the question.
      “So then how do I make sure I avoid a pay decrease? What can I do better or differently so I know I am in a good spot?”

    10. Peppermint Patty*

      It always amazes me when managers can’t rate you higher than a 3 “meets expectation” on your annual performance evaluation, but then they want everyone to fill out an engagement survey and give the company all 5s. If employees are only 3s, how can the company be a 5?

    11. MacGillicuddy*

      The next time she says “ it depends on the individual circumstance”, reply to her “OK, what is it in MY circumstance? Cost of living or merit?”

  4. LTL*

    Second post for a separate question: Is it a faux pas to leave a temp position early, similar to how you shouldn’t leave a contract job before the final date? Or is normal for people to leave temp positions (with two weeks notice) when they find full time work?

    1. Ellen*

      very very normal. i would even argue that two weeks notice is overkill (although very gracious of you)

    2. Harriet*

      It is very normal to leave a temp position at any time, especially for a full time one. It is one of the accepted drawbacks of hiring a temp.

      1. Momma Bear*

        Agreed. I’d give them a standard 2 weeks notice so they can be a good reference for you but if a company doesn’t offer a temp a job after a while, they have to expect that the temp will leave.

    3. Weekend Please*

      My sister was working with temps for a while. A lot of them quit with no notice. One simply didn’t come back from lunch. I think quitting for a full time job is very normal and offering notice is a nice idea but not necessarily standard depending on the type of temp position you have. As a temp, they may turn down the two weeks and make the day you gave notice your last day. Depending on the type of temp job they don’t need any time to get someone else into the position and since you were there for a short time you probably don’t need to train your replacement or wrap anything up.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      The only time it is really bad is if it was a limited temp position, like a two month temp position to handle the overflow from a project where they had to invest in training you for a few days. It would be crappy to quit at week 6 leaving them without someone for the last 2 weeks.
      That said…I did leave a 6 week contract early because I found a perm job. But I worked with the employer to wrap up the project early, so it actually saved them money.

      1. M. Albertine*

        Yup, I was in this position last year: I signed on with a tax firm for tax season, then got offered a full-time position three weeks into the job. I ended up negotiating a delayed start date for the full time job to be able to extend the temp position to get them through March 15th. (Tax season being extended after that helped them cover my position, as well)
        They were very understanding about my leaving early at any rate. I could have “gotten away” with the standard two weeks, but again, the time invested in training, the fact I was doing a mutually beneficial favor for a mentor, and the new job’s understanding all contributed to my decision to be flexible.

      1. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

        Same. I was on a temp to perm assignment that was supposed to turn permanent at 90 days. Six months in despite my following up there was no movement. There was a buyout that resulted in most of the co-workers in my chain of command being let go on a random Friday with no notice. I cut my losses, told my contact at the placement agency I was done, and quickly cleaned out my desk of the few personal items I had at the end of the day and ran to my car.

        I would have never considered doing that as an employee – I had never walked off a job with no notice in my over 20 year career before that, but being kept in limbo as a temp kept me from being fully engaged enough to care what was going to happen without me there.

    6. NowWhat?465*

      It depends if it is a temp position or a contract role. I’ve had people on my team in contract roles who have left before their contract was up, and it was super frustrating because we signed them through X date because we needed them for events and post-mortems through that date. That being said, we’re understanding that it wasn’t a permanent gig but please give us a heads up if it looks like you’re leaving earlier than expected! We know you’re only here to May, but if it looks like you’re dipping out in April, let me know ASAP so we can plan accordingly.

      Temp position without a specified “need through” date and no specific project based work? No issues. I have left temp roles before when finding full time work and they were completely understanding because they didn’t know how long they would even need temps, and it would be unreasonable to ask us to stay until they decided they didn’t want us. I did give a 1 week notice in that role, just because my new position needed me to start immediately.

    7. Nonny-nonny-non*

      At my company (US global corp but I’m in the UK) we can theoretically give a temp an hour’s notice that we don’t want them any more, thank you and goodbye. But, the reverse is also true; they can do that to us.
      Bearing in mind the perm heads here mostly have to give either one or two months’ notice, we’d not look kindly on a temp who left with only an hour’s notice (and, outside of egregious issues we wouldn’t do that to a temp either), but I’d say a week would be considered reasonable and we’d rehire them in future.

      1. Momma Bear*

        I had a job like that. Company just needed to get caught up and as soon as they did they announced that we should all go home. We worked until our mandated lunch break (in part to give the manager time to go around and get signatures on our last time sheet) and that was it.

    8. Double A*

      The whole point of temps is you don’t have the commitment to them that you do with a permanent employee, and that works both ways. Unless you have an actual contract, you can quit whenever you want (2 weeks notice is a nice courtesy of course). It’s less impactful for the company anyway, because presumably, they can get another temp through the staffing agency if they need it.

    9. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      My experience is that temps (as opposed to contract workers) are usually hired through an agency, they aren’t directly our employee. So if a temp leaves, the agency just sends someone new immediately. I guess if you were hired directly by the company knowing that it was a temporary hire, then 2 weeks notice would be a courtesy, but if you’re hired through an agency, it’s totally unnecessary.

    10. AnotherLibrarian*

      Very normal. And people will usually (if it’s a healthy organization) be happy for you. But yeah, I would give the standard 2 weeks notice.

    11. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s normal.

      However, do you expect to ever need this temp agency again? If you don’t want to burn that bridge with the agency [assuming that’s the case, since most temps are through that method], you will want to speak with them about the best way to approach it. Then can then be ready to take care of the client when you leave, instead of just dropping off the face of the planet.

      The difference is always who signs the contract. Is it you or is it an agency that placed you. The person who signed it technically has the most responsibility. But if you don’t want to be blacklisted by the agency and the recruitment folks who placed you, I’d say you be as professional as possible.

    12. CSR by Day*

      I certainly don’t think so. I once quit a temp job after only a couple of hours because I could tell that I wasn’t up to the job. (Strange unique custom software designed for this client only and it was just weird to use. It seemed like I was making a lot of mistakes and not getting the hang of it. Maybe I was having a very off day) I called the agency right away and apologized and let them know so they could send someone with better skills, then I apologized to the client and left. I guess the agency sent someone who could do the job. The agency called me back later and had other work for me, so they didn’t seem too worried about it.

      OTOH, I was once let go from a temp position with no notice. I got a call from the agency shortly before lunch that the client didn’t need me anymore and not to come back after lunch. The client didn’t say the quality of my work was bad or anything like that and the agency never said anything either. I thought it weird at the time, and kind of rude that no one from the client’s office said anything. I guess they were just a rude client. I was a bit miffed with the agency after that and was able to easily find work at other agencies, so I never worked with that agency again by my choice, but I’m sure they had lots of other workers they could send out.

  5. Goose*

    I got a job!! I got a job!! I actually got two offers this week and used one to negotiate a higher salary for the one I wanted so as of Feb 1 I am officially employed! ~~~~Sending out job vibes to everyone here still looking ~~~~

    Question: What does business casual look like in Miami? What does it look like for someone going for an androgynous look?

      1. Goose*

        Thank you! It all happened Tuesday/Wednesday so I am still processing *all* of my feelings from the past few days… but today I’m finally feeling the excitement!

        1. madge*

          Whew, what a rollercoaster. Congratulations on your new job and for being in such a beautiful city with warm winters! Envying you from the midwest!

    2. LKW*

      WOOOOO!

      Miami biz casual is going to be slim pants, a little ankle showing. Button down long sleeve. Think suit without the jacket. If it’s more casual than business then khakis and a button down or golf shirt.

    4. PolarVortex*

      Congrats!!!!

      I have no idea about Miami, but I live in button down shirts for my own gender neutral preferences.

      1. Bostonian*

        +1 Calvin Klein has some great button-down shirts that are really light material but not see-through. (I’m wearing one right now and I’m freezing!)

    9. Zephy*

      What awesome news!!

      Miami is a pretty vibrant city so you can probably get away with brighter colors or more fun patterns in your workwear than you might be able to in other places. I’d still start pretty basic and neutral – “suit without the jacket” is a good way to think about it – and see what sorts of things and colors your coworkers wear.

      1. Igelfreundin*

        I lived in Miami five years ago, and found that people were more “dressed up” than I expected from living elsewhere on the East Coast. Women had higher heels and more makeup, and all genders wore more jewelry. I would err on the side of more polished, but don’t equate polished with staid. Color is and interesting fashion is definitely more common there.

  6. What's in a name?*

    Does anyone have tips for effectively reading the comments on this site? There are so many posted that it gets hard to wrap my mind around all of them.

    1. Who moved my cheese?*

      I use and love the “collapse all threaded comments” button (I remember when we were first graced with its wonderful presence) and, after the open thread is more than a few hours old, I start from the bottom. Depending on your browser and cookie settings, you should also see a blue line on the left of new comments that have been added since the last time you were on the page.

      1. Former Usher*

        I’ve been reading this site for years, and somehow never noticed the button until you mentioned it. Thanks!

    2. Web Crawler*

      I skim for interesting content and use the little “collapse” link often, when the parent comment isn’t relevant to me

    3. Sylvan*

      Collapse them all. Only read threads where something’s interesting to you, you recognize the name of a poster whose comments are good, you see a question you can answer, etc. If you’ve gotten into a conversation, expand all the comments and ctrl+F your name to find your thread.

      2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Also, there’s an invisible asterisk (*) after all of our user names, to make it easier to use your browser’s find function for a particular user.

          1. I Want To Go Outside.*

            Hi, TJ, the search results will omit references to your name in other threads, like this one.

    4. Squigs*

      I hear you. One thing I would love to see is a way to highlight when the OP posts in the comments. I always love to read their updates or clarifications.

      1. redwinemom*

        Oftentimes, the OP using that exact name when updating in the comments.
        You can search for that OP by doing a search through the comments looking for that ‘exact name” – and add an asterisk after OP. (*)
        So, do “Ctrl F” which brings up a box for you to enter their name: OP*
        Then you can scroll down by clicking on the down arrow in that box to see all their comments. Sometimes there are several comments, sometimes non.

        1. redwinemom*

          But sometimes, the OP uses their regular sign on name. (As an example, I would use redwinemom instead of OP*.) Then it is more difficult to search for the person who submitted the story/question unless you just happen to come across their comment.

    6. I need coffee before I can make coffee*

      I wish there was an option to see newest posts at the top. It would be especially helpful at the end of the open thread period.

      1. Cascadia*

        Yes, I wish there was a way a tracking if someone commented on your comment other than just sitting and watching the thread.

    7. Danish*

      I set my default state to collapse all threads, so I only ever see top levels. Then I can expand what interests me and move on if not. I’m on mobile and it’s been entirely necessary just from a technical standpoint, but it’s great for not being overwhelmed otherwise too.

    8. gsa*

      If I have commented on something and comes back to see if there were more comments on that post or if anyone commented on my comment I “Expand All” and search for my own name.

      Expand/Collapse is the ticket!!!

    9. Practicalities*

      In addition to all these great tips, I’ll also do a ctrl-F for ask a m—short for Ask a Manager. I really enjoy reading what Alison has to say about others’ comments. Some end up being more interesting than the original letter!

  7. Who moved my cheese?*

    We returned to the office with COVID safety and mitigation protocols in place, including distancing and reduced staff rotating in. I noticed some of my coworkers I come into contact with are wearing the type of runners’ neck mask that a study this Spring said was *less* effective than wearing *no* mask because it *increased* the spread of droplets n stuff. I’ll find and link the study again. My question: how can I address this? I’m lucky to have good HR and a large supportive upper management team. But I don’t want to be a troublemaker, make anyone feel singled out, or complicate a coworker relationship that needs to stay amicable.

    1. Blackcat*

      Not saying that neck gators are effective, but that study was designed to test methods for testing mask types. It was not a rigorous attempt to test different types, so you can’t conclude that neck gators are less effective than no masks. Just that the particular one in that particular study did less well under very particular conditions.

      One option: You can point to standards from the rest of the world that specifically state requirements for facemasks to be “fitted” around the face to be effective. Wearing a neck gator still gets you fined when the mask requirement is in effect in Victoria, Australia, for instance.

      But honestly, given that the science is not totally on your side, I don’t know if you have much reason to push back. I think your best bet is to have your employer provide a liberal amount really comfy masks and encourage your coworkers to wear those instead.

      1. Who moved my cheese?*

        Thank you! You are right. I found a follow up from MIT that I will link in a follow up comment. They are better than nothing.

        1. The Rural Juror*

          I work in construction, and our approach so far has been that it’s better than nothing. It’s easier to get the people on our jobsites to wear a bandanna or neck gaitor than it is to get them to wear something around their ears. If people on the site wear something that’s attached to them versus something they can take off and put in their pocket…it’s kind of a win. Granted, so far our jobsite this year have been open air and it’s easier to be socially distant. We make a show of adjusting our mask or somehow drawing attention to it as we approach people and need to communicate with them, it signals them to mask up.

          However, we’re going to have to start being more strict since the site will start to be more enclosed soon…

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          For what it’s worth, my understanding of clothing and homemade masks is that tightly woven natural fibers are working better than artificial, or knit fabric. The first effectivity study I saw had tested stretchy fleece gaiters so that combined several issues in one.

          1. Who moved my cheese?*

            Unfortunately I’m encountering use of stretchy, single-layer artificial fabric gaiters

      2. Who moved my cheese?*

        Request to stop commenting on the science study alone (I’ve been corrected and provided with follow-up research) and focus on the work question, unless your comment is along the lines of ‘you shouldn’t bring this up at work because of the science.’ Thank you to everyone who’s replied so far!

    3. Natalie*

      That was *not* a study of mask effectiveness, it was a proof of concept for a method to test mask effectiveness. Only 1 person wore the different types of masks, making it completely worthless as a data set.

      Address your complaints to the abysmal state of science journalism, I guess.

    4. Weekend Please*

      I wasn’t aware of that study. I would have thought it was better than nothing. When you find the link can you share it?

    5. C6 CEO*

      I would first check with the return to work guidelines in your county. There’s a chance that they include detail about the type of face covering required, like “multi-layer or non-woven fabric) which would exclude gaiters.

    6. Katie Porter's Whiteboard*

      I think a conversation with your HR is a good way to go. You could ask if they’re aware of the studies into different types of facemasks and their efficacy, referencing the issue with some masks decreasing the size of droplets.

      I’ve seen some masks that look like those stretchy gators but are actually multi-layered or the area in front of the mouth are multi-layered and the rest is stretchy to allow for a close fit so it’s hard to tell. If you’re in a situation where someone has one of those masks, standing a little further away is a safe bet. You could even say something like “I’ve read that some of the stretchy masks aren’t as effective so I’m going to adhere pretty strictly to social distancing.”

      My workplace requires that all masks be ‘double-layered and fitted to the face’ and specifically say that material such as a folded bandana aren’t considered acceptable.

    7. HerdingCatsWouldBeEasier*

      I’ll link to an MIT post on this in a separate reply, but echoing Blackcat, neck gaiters have been found to be somewhat effective (although not as effective as fitted masks). I agree they should be wearing better masks, but you don’t want to oversell it to HR and have your concerns dismissed. I would check with your local hospital’s rules for patients- I know the hospital system I work for doesn’t allow them, even for patients.

    8. Satisfactory Worker*

      Cheese – I implemented the mask rules for our agency. I, too, saw the information about gaiters a while back. I myself had been wearing them occasionally and stopped, but I didn’t make anyone else for a few reasons: 1) the science wasn’t clear how much less effective it was, 2) it wasn’t an extended study because it was only a proof of concept for how to test effectiveness, 3) we were already having problems with compliance and the gaiters were better than nothing.

      I did put my foot down about the respirator masks with vents (the vents open when you exhale, so they don’t protect anyone around you–only you).

      2. Double Vented*

        What about vented masks that filter both inhaled and exhaled air? I have these and use P100 filters in them. I would be furious if I was told I couldn’t wear them when others were wearing next to nothing (gaiters).

      1. Blackcat*

        No, their science was totally fine!

        “Can we accurately test things using this set up?” was the research question!

        People interpreted the study as “Which type of mask is most effective?” which was NOT the research study.

        The original study was fine. Like, not great, but totally fine, adequate science. The issue was the science journalism around it. I’m going to drop a link to one of my favorite pieces about public interpretation of studies.

    10. Teacher’s wife*

      My husband wears a gator rather than a fitted mask. He teaches remotely from his classroom (for the time being). Because he has such a large head, he has not found a comfortable face mask (we have tried several kinds and will be ordering yet another kind this weekend). I feel it is better than nothing and, combined with other precautions, is keeping him safe until he gets vaccinated. It’s not perfect, but it’s at least something.

      1. Hillary*

        I enlarged the Tom Bihn x-large pattern to 110% to fit my partner’s extremely large head – message me at marguerida on instagram if you’d like me to send a couple. I’ve gotten to production sewing speeds. :-)

      2. Realistic*

        King Sized Direct has XL face masks that are very adjustable, have a pocket for a tissue or filter, and fit very large heads. They’re about $8 and wash up well, too. We’ve ordered a lot of them because they’re the only kind that fit.

      3. Rachel in NYC*

        I’ll add nothing to masks that might fit but I will say that they may need to be hand washed for your husband. I’ve found most masks shrunk in the washing machine- which was great when that was the goal but not when they fit before they went in.

        (I’ve also purchased additional elastic and the like because I do have that issue.)

      4. Frank Doyle*

        My husband also preferred wearing a gaitor (actually a Buff) because it’s convenient to always have it around his neck, and masks didn’t fit great. I wasn’t thrilled about that because they’re so thin and flimsy, so now when he’s going out he puts the cloth mask I made between the layers of the Buff, so he can still pull it up and it sits where he wants it and doesn’t fall down, but he’s got the extra protection of the 3 layers of fabric in the fabric mask.

      5. TJ*

        I wear a bandana folded twice lengthwise (so a long strip about 4″ wide) and then secure it with a stretchy cord looped around my head and tied around the ends of the folded bandana. It doesn’t look nice, but it’s a lot more comfortable than any other mask I’ve tried. Maybe your husband could try something similar?

      6. Bagpuss*

        I’ve found masks with elastic which goes round my head are much more comfortable and fit better than any which go over my ears, and my dad (from whom I inherit my large head) has said the same. I have some I bought on Etsy and some that my mum made me using them as a guide. the ones my mum made are better, as the elastic I got her is slightly thicker and softer, so although it’s mostly over my hair, the places where it’s right on my skin are more comfortable.
        I also wear glasses and find they are better in terms of not getting the mask elastic entangled on the arms of the glasses.

    11. Who moved my cheese?*

      Request to stop commenting on the science study alone (I’ve been corrected and provided with follow-up research) and focus on the work question, unless your comment is along the lines of ‘you shouldn’t bring this up at work because of the science.’ Thank you to everyone who’s replied so far!

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        My apologies for not seeing your request before I answered your question. I do have one more thing to suggest you add when you talk to the powers-that-be at your company …specifically ban inflatable Halloween costumes. Google dinosaur costume at a hospital in California. Employee didn’t know she was exposed and contagious when she got silly to cheer up people. :(

    12. Campfire Raccoon*

      My husband and his crew wear the gaiters that have the three-layers sown in, and can be turned around for the filter insert. I imagine you aren’t seeing the fancy-dance ones like that.

      If you are concerned, have a convo with HR. They’ll have a better idea what the company’s policies are, and will have the clout to enforce them.

    13. Momma Bear*

      Does the company provide any masks? I ask because we experimented with a number of kinds of masks early on and the company settled on providing surgical masks after a time. There are boxes everywhere so there is no excuse not to grab one as needed. I have not seen any neck gaitors since. It also helps that the CEO has laid out that he does not want to see any socializing in the kitchens, etc., either, and wears a mask himself. Most of us still wear our own masks, but of the multiple layers of cotton variety. No valves allowed.

      This mentions gaitors so it won’t *really* back you up but other info might: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/about-face-coverings.html

    14. Sunflower*

      I think this depends on your location but I’m not sure you would have a case with HR. I think most places in the US with requirements require ‘face coverings’ and there’s nothing that specifies it must be a mask. I don’t think it would get you singled out but I also don’t know if HR would find value in raising it with the wearer.

    15. TL -*

      So if they’re outside or in large common rooms (ideally, with good ventilation) unless HR is willing to enforce a specific type of mask rule (ours has, but hospital, and we provide them), it’ll be a hard go of it.

      For your office, or conference room, or any other enclosed spaces, you can bring disposable masks and ask people to wear them for meetings with you, or to alternatively take meetings outside or in a larger area. (I would work this as, “I’m so sorry. I really appreciate you wearing a face covering, but do you mind switching to a mask for the duration of our meeting? Given that it’s in a small, confined space, I want to go with most effective face covering possible, which is X.”)

    16. LGC*

      With the disclaimer that the study was…ambiguous, from my recollection: Address it with HR as a general issue. My workplace has banned neck gaiters and valved masks. It’s not unheard of.

      I wouldn’t address it directly with your coworkers unless you’re responsible for mask enforcement. And also, this is a new thing! Several people are making the same mistake, it sounds like. This is actually one of those times where it’s good to do a group announcement – because this changes things for everyone.

  8. fhqwhgads*

    If your employer has paid public holidays, and you go on FMLA which is unpaid but could be partially paid by using vacation time concurrently, and the leave overlaps those paid holidays (say for example, Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, NYE and New Year’s Day), should you expect to be paid for those holidays, even if the other days those weeks were unpaid leave? And also, would those days count toward your total FMLA time?
    I am asking both questions in a legal sense as well as a “reasonable employers would do X” sense.

    1. Anon-mama*

      I can’t recall–I’d have to look at my paystubs, as I definitely had 5 state/federal holidays during my leave a couple years ago. They may have cataloged it as intermittent leave, so I was on FMLA for all days surrounding the federal holiday, but as not on FMLA the paid holidays. Our contact specifies leave by days, not weeks, so I feel like they did not count as part of the total, which is how I got three solid months off. The annoying part is I did not accrue sick leave, which was much worse to lose.

    2. Natalie*

      By law, the employer has to treat FMLA and non-FMLA leaves equally. So if they normally cover holidays when you are out on paid leave, then they can’t change that policy because your paid leave portion is FMLA-protected. If they don’t normally cover holidays during unpaid leave (which is the usual policy in my experience) than they don’t have to during the unpaid portion of FMLA leave.

    3. LargeHippo*

      I was on FMLA and asked this exact question as two paid holidays fell during my break. The answer was no, I did not get paid for them

      1. LargeHippo*

        oh – I also asked if I could get those two days tacked onto my leave and their answer was also no.

    4. Sabrina Spellman*

      I was on FMLA/parental leave from the end of September through the middle of December. If it’s a paid day off for everyone, I got paid for it, though I did have enough banked sick/vacation time that I was paid at my regular rate through my entire leave.

    5. Aurora Leigh*

      At my company, you only get holiday pay if you are working or using PTO the day before the holiday. If you’re out without pay the day before you don’t get paid for the holiday. So if you were just on unpaid FMLA the holiday would count as just a regular day, but if you’re using banked time it would be paid. It still counts at part of your 12 weeks though.

      2. kittymommy*

        Same. We also have to supply a dr’s note if you call in sick if it’s a day next to a holiday. (Normally we only need a note if you’re out for a few days in a row.)

    6. Picard*

      holidays are not required to be paid if you are on FMLA depending on your employers regular policy.

      Under 29 C.F.R. § 825.209 and 29 C.F.R. § 825.215(c)(2), whether an employee on FMLA leave must receive holiday pay depends on whether the employer would make the payment if the employee were on a non-FMLA leave. If an employer’s policy provides that an employee who is off work the day before the holiday will get holiday pay only if the time off is paid (with PTO or vacation, for example), then the employer must provide holiday pay to an employee who is on FMLA leave only if the FMLA leave is paid. An employer with such a policy is not required to provide holiday pay to an employee on unpaid FMLA leave. In other words, employers must treat employees on FMLA leave consistent with those who are on similar forms of non-FMLA leave.

      This issue is governed by 29 C.F.R. § 825.209(h), which states:

      An employee’s entitlement to benefits other than group health benefits during a period of FMLA leave (e.g., holiday pay) is to be determined by the employer’s established policy for providing such benefits when the employee is on other forms of leave (paid or unpaid, as appropriate).

      I dont know if those days count towards your total FMLA without doing some research but I suspect not.

    7. New Mom*

      Just got back from leave and asked the same question as we had multiple holidays during my leave and no I did not get paid for them (CA).

    8. Bear Shark*

      When I was on FMLA for parental leave that included paid holidays, I was paid for those as holidays by my employer. I was being paid for the other days through banked PTO. A portion of my time was paid through Short-Term Disability, and holidays were treated the same as any other business day for STD purposes. Holiday days counted toward my total FMLA time. My employer doesn’t allow intermittent FMLA parental leave.

    9. Librarian of SHIELD*

      It’s going to be different from company to company, since FMLA allows companies to pay for medical leave but doesn’t require it, so every company’s going to have their own rules. I’m public sector, and our policy is that if a person is eligible for holiday pay, they receive holiday pay whether that was a day they’d ordinarily be working or not. I was working a Tuesday-Saturday schedule for a while, and I always had to have an extra day off somewhere if it was a week with a Monday holiday, because I was required to receive that holiday pay. I was on FMLA over 4th of July weekend one year and I ended up only having to use 9 days of my sick time instead of 10, because the 10th day was my 4th of July holiday pay.

      But again, getting paid during FMLA is a company-by-company decision.

    10. Cascadia*

      Agreed it varies company by company. I work for a school and if you are a teacher and go on FMLA for maternity/paternity leave, it doesn’t matter when that leave falls in the school year, you get the same time off. So, if you had a baby in June and got 3 months off you’d come back in September – basically just your summer vacation you normally get. But if you had the baby in March, you’d get March-June off for FMLA, plus normal summer vacation. Timing matters for teachers and babies, if only these things were easily planned.

    11. LGC*

      Disclaimer: My employer is in New Jersey (yes, everything is legal here), so this might be different if you’re in California or something (or even New York). Or – like – Texas.

      At my company: you shouldn’t expect to be paid for those holidays if your remaining time off doesn’t overlap with those holidays. I don’t know if it’d count towards your total FMLA time, though. The way we’ve treated it is like if the employee is temporarily off payroll (because…well, they are). I don’t think I’ve ever had an instance where an employee’s leave PTO has overlapped with a paid holiday, but our general policy is to not deduct PTO for holidays.

  9. Amber Rose*

    OK you all helped me now please help my husband: what jobs can he do/would he maybe enjoy with his unusual combo of education and experience?

    Education: BA in political science
    Experience: Government for 6 years working with finances and contracts. He drafts the contracts that gets certain people paid, and also manages budget spreadsheets, tracks spending, etc. Has been involved in a limited way in some HR type stuff like interviewing and such.

    The problem is that even with 6 years of finance experience, without a finance degree it seems impossible to unlikely that he could get similar work outside the government. But due to vengeful management, he can’t leave or progress at his current job, and due to vengeful government he can’t get raises or respect either, so we really want to get him the heck out of there. He’s so miserable. :(

    1. Harriet*

      Grant writing maybe? A friend of mine used to be in bookkeeping for government contracts, then she was asked to help write a grant, and now there is so much demand that she could easily do 2 jobs worth of it.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yep, I went right to Grant Writing. He would just need to take a weekend course to get up to speed on the nuances of the artform.

      2. Murphy*

        I was going to say Research Administration on the financial side. Possibly more on the post-award side (bookeeping after the award has been made) than the pre-award side.

        1. RabbitRabbir*

          This. In research hospitals or at universities – the former might be more stable right now. I work in a research hospital and we’re always looking for research admin or research contracts people.

          1. College Career Counselor*

            Agreed on this. In addition, contracts/budget analyst/administration work in any college is a possibility as well. Depending on his level of experience, some financial analysis positions might be available to him, although he might have to train/take certifications. Would his current employer authorize him to pursue those?

        2. Beatrix*

          Definitely research administration. There’s no consistent path into research admin, so the basic requirements are much lower than other finance jobs.

    2. LKW*

      I know people with no finance degree that do contract management in terms of contract standards, vendor management, vendor selection and quality metrics management. The focus is less on the contract than standardization of the contract and measurement processes.

      1. Dave*

        Definitely would qualify for some jobs here especially if it overlapped with the types of contracts he always reviews.

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        This. I work in this area, and the range of degrees is *wide*. From Theater to Business to Industrial Engineer.

        However, some classes at a local community college in accounting will help him out.

        1. Rain In Spain*

          Thirding- purchasing/supply chain/contract management could be a great fit for his experience!

    4. female-type person*

      Policy or legislative analysis. People who can read a bill or a law and create a spreadsheet to calculate costs to taxpayers or impacted organizations or political subdivisions would be valuable to lobbying firms or non-profits that do their own lobbying. A related skill would be drafting legislation or policy.

    5. Blackcat*

      Look into grants administration and other support positions in higher ed. Lots of institutions have grants offices where the job is often to help people draft budgets for grant submissions and do the follow up accounting for that.

      1. Ama*

        Nonprofits also have positions like this — both nonprofits that fund themselves with grants and nonprofits that give out grants need people with a good grasp of financial tracking and budgets, but unless you are actually applying to the accounting department, work experience is usually given preference over certifications.

        I am a nonprofit grant administrator for a medical science funder — my educational background is in literature and writing, no formal science degree or financial training. Your husband would actually look better on paper applying for my job than I did.

    6. Free Meerkats*

      Move to a different governmental entity, maybe?

      I was going nowhere at the county here, moved to the city in a related field and now I manage the program.

      1. Haha Lala*

        This! My brother also has a poli sci degree and works in finance for a local municipality. The only way he’s been able to advance is by applying for jobs a level up in a different city/county.

        And adjacent thought– Has your husband thought about getting a masters degree or some sort of advanced certificate? He might be getting passed over for promotions if his competition has more qualifications.

    7. PolarVortex*

      Oh! Contract Management, look for that title specifically although I’ve heard it called other things. A lot of larger companies use this field to identify contract improvement ideas for customers, deal with finance related things like rate reductions and credits, it’s the prefect launch for his background into non-government work. While it’s not a perfect fit for his previous experience, his work with both finance things and with contract language will really benefit him here. A lot of companies – mine included – don’t require previous experience in the field, nor a legal or finance degree. We have legal to approve contract changes, and finance to do the actual financial reporting. CM is there to look for ways to retain customers, improve retention/stop money loss, etc. It tends to be a bit customer facing though.

    8. Anon pour ce poste*

      I think a lot of this analysis type stuff maps to many Analyst roles. I have a BA in History.
      The closest experience I have to your husband’s was when I worked in the Procurement department of a multinational company (I had no previous finance experience). I came on board to help the department transition to some new software (mapping out processes, writing training, prepping for the transition, etc.) but after we transitioned, I ran spend reports, helped establish further new processes to improve the department, ran training sessions for implementing the processes. Later I moved into the Sourcing department where I assisted the people who reached out to vendors to establish contracts, etc.
      Otherwise, just spin the resume to show how his skills match other jobs that require thinking/analysis. I’ve been a tech writer, worked on training people how to use Salesforce, and am now in a Centre of Excellence (COE) department for a manufacturing/logistics company. (Seriously, check out the latter – I run So. Many. Finance. Reports. We have a Finance department, but our COE managers need help generating their own views of the data.

    9. NowWhat?465*

      Procurement sounds like it would be a great fit for him! I work at a large university and a lot of times we have to go through our Procurement office to purchase things instead of just going to buy them. They handle contracts with our big vendors, evaluate what is reimbursable or taxable, assist new programs with set up, and look over or create contracts with individual vendors.

    10. T. Boone Pickens*

      Just spitballing but could he pursue getting a PMP cert? That might make him more attractive to outside employers. I was going to suggest back of the house financial services licenses like a Series 24 but that requires a FINRA member to sponsor you.

    11. Roza*

      How good is he with the coding/analytics side of things? I’m in a tech, and for enterprise software there are roles with names like “product specialist”, “solutions engineer”, sometimes other stuff, and it basically entails owning big customer engagements, tracking requirements, working with engineering/data science/whatever to get the custom bits built. Especially if it’s software that’s sold to the government, his experience would be really valuable. The titles are so varied that they’re hard to Google, but maybe he could do some research into software products used in or trying to break into his area of gov?

    12. Hillary*

      My undergrad is in poli sci. I’m now in procurement/supply chain for a manufacturer.

      His contract work now would fall under our contract manager/analyst roles or category managers. He’d be qualified for contract analyst based on experience, maybe manager if he owned the negotiations. Our category managers do contracts as a secondary responsibility, we’re primarily responsible for negotiating, running bids, and managing vendor relationships. The budget & spending stuff is mostly done by our systems. It’s good knowledge but doesn’t directly point to a role.

    13. New Mom*

      Is he interested in being a financial planner? Or he could look for nonprofits that work with the government and would like his insider knowledge of systems.

    14. Seeking Second Childhood*

      In some companies, there’s overlap with business analysis and business development.

    15. Generic Name*

      I would look into contract manager and project controller jobs. Does he have experience (beyond being an end user) of software like PeopleSoft?

    16. AnotherLibrarian*

      A few thoughts would be- contracts/grants/budget analyst/administration work. Basically, anything involving money at a large organization. Also consider City Government, they employ folks to do similar work or, if you’re near the seat of government, state legislatures usually have budget analysis folks who don’t work for the executive branch (i.e. standard state government) and run their own show. I used to work for legislative affairs and it was a much healthier place than the main state government. Funny enough, the legislature tends to look after their own non-partisan staff and we were well protected from the drama the rest of the state went through. Also, the court system needs budget people and contract folks.

    17. MissDisplaced*

      I work in private sector tech/IT services sales and we have people who are specifically for services design and activation. Basically they are part of the pre-sales process and help the sales reps with the following:

      > Draw up the contracts and accompanying paperwork (finance review)
      > Deal analysis and structures – How much should we charge and will this be profitable for us?
      > Write the Proposals and Statement of Work (SoW)
      > Navigate the back and forth with client, legal, etc. to close sales deals
      > Help kickoff the new customer onboarding (which is handed off to other managers)
      > Monitor the accounts for profitability, accurate billing, forecasting revenue and resource planning

      They’re kind of a bridge between sales and accounting really.
      Services Sales Consultant, or maybe part of a Business Development team. It sounds like your husband could do this. You don’t need a finance degree for this role, but one does need a fair bit of experience with financials to analyze and setup strategic deals. Most in the role have seem to have an MBA, but not all do.
      We just hired someone like this. If you want to see the qualifications. (missdisplaced@yahoo.com)

    18. Rachel in NYC*

      I work in finance in university licensing with a JD. Some of those skill sets would cross over to the area of finance I work in (basically really specialized accounts payable.) I enjoy working for a university- the pay is less but the benefits are decent. (Though the reality is that I like my co-workers and that’s the difference.)

      Maybe contract management or contract administration. Procurement? Depending on his skill set project management?

    19. Amber Rose*

      I can’t reply to everyone, but thank you so much on behalf of both of us! I think husband has some good ideas now and it looks like there are some interesting jobs he can take a look at.

    20. Just Stopping by to chat*

      You husband should still apply for finance jobs or jobs that require budget experience. Not all employers are just looking for the finance degree.

  10. Grad school debt while changing jobs?*

    Hi all, has anyone ever changed jobs while using a company’s tuition reimbursement? I currently work for company X, and I’m using their tuition reimbursement program to pay for (most of) my master’s degree. I’m considering leaving, which means I’d have to pay back company X the tuition for the past 2 years (per the tuition guidelines). It’s doable, but a while ago a former coworker said that when he switched jobs in a similar situation, he got the new company to pay off the old company. I don’t remember if it was a signing bonus or a direct payment to the old company.

    Anyone done this before? Get the new company to pay off the “dowry” of the old company? Coworker is a software engineer, so this might be some Silicon Valley-only stuff. Should I just ask about New Company’s tuition reimbursement and mention that I owe old company, and see if they say anything? Or would I sound like a loon bringing this up at all?

    1. cat lady*

      My sister did this when one of her grad school profs poached her for their own company! She did have to pay back a portion, but I think it’s definitely worth asking about New Company’s tuition reimbursement. They know you’re finishing your Master’s, so this won’t be a surprise.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      If you have a “hot” job, or are in a more senior level position, then it is possible that they would offer a sign on bonus to cover a part or all the tuition.

    3. Yellow Warbler*

      I have a friend who did this, she was working on her MBA while moving from an account controller to an e-commerce manager.

      I don’t know the exact wording she used, but she did ask them to cover the 2 years of time she would owe back. I believe they asked for documentation to show the exact amount.

    4. cheapeats*

      Ask. I’m in tech and this is common for the new company to pay off the old company’s remaining reimbursement requirement. (not directly to the old company- to you as part of sign-on agreement.)

    5. ABC*

      Hello, I don’t mean to nitpick your language, but as someone coming from a region where people have been killed (and still are) over dowry demands, could you please not misuse that word? Thanks!

  11. funkydonut*

    Has anyone else in the US struggled with feeling like work is even more stupid and pointless than ever right now? Like, I can’t believe I’m just supposed to sit at this desk when a government building is under siege? My boss barely acknowledged it – at the end of a (virtual) meeting the other day, she just said “okay go check the news now.” Are other people’s bosses being more understanding? How is everyone coping with this?

    1. Frustrated Employee*

      I just wrote a whole comment below about a tone-deaf email we got from our company president. God forbid something get in the way of making a profit, whether it’s a pandemic or attempted coup of our government.

    2. Rebecca Black*

      My manager didn’t come to work and did not respond to an email asking if we should make a statement. I am doing the bare minimal and that seems to work for me.

    3. Dwight Schrute*

      Yeah I’ve been having a tough time focusing and being productive. I mean what an absolute mess we’re enduring right now. I don’t see how people are so tone deaf about this

    4. Sylvan*

      Not exactly (my job’s very useful to our clients, so I can make my work feel like it matters). But it’s so hard to focus. It seems to be stressful for everyone.

    5. LKW*

      I’m sorry you’re struggling. My leadership put out videos and messages and reminders of our EAP program as well as other resources. I log onto news sites about 12 times a day. I don’t think it’s helping me, but knowing that my company and my client are both aghast and OK if we take a couple of minutes to vent

      1. lemon*

        We got a similar “your EAP is there to help you,” email. And like… I know there’s not much that anyone can do to help right now, but really, how is an EAP supposed to help with this right now? I’m just imagining how that conversation would go:

        “It’s hard for me to work because people are trying to overthrow the government right now.”
        “I’m sorry, that sounds difficult. Have you tried practicing mindfulness using an app? Or tried being resilient? I can send you articles on how to be resilient!”

        It feels like the best thing that employers can do right now is just… manage expectations. I haven’t had non-digital human interaction in almost a year, I fear for my physical health everyday, and now we’re in an unprecedented political crisis– answering emails isn’t at the top of my priority list right now.

        1. Tris Prior*

          I reached out to my EAP late last year when the confluence of pandemic plus politics plus personally stressful stuff (unemployment and having our housing situation threatened) got to be too much.
          And I am sorry to say that this is EXACTLY what I got from the therapist.

          I was told to try mindfulness apps, which was especially offensive since one of the things I brought up initially was “I do not like screens, screens stress me out, the fact that life has to mostly happen on screens now is really hard for me.” So clearly the solution is…. more screens?

          I was told to exercise (which I was already doing a lot of) and that if the weather was bad I should deal with my stress and anxiety and horror by pacing around my small apartment. When I said that I wasn’t sure that would help given how bad things are, I was told, “well, you know, you can choose to be anxious too, if that is what you want.” Uhhhh.

          I am SO glad that I was not paying for that therapy.
          It probably didn’t help that only one person on the 10-therapist list that the EAP sent me had any availability at all for new clients.

    6. Blackcat*

      I got the helpful “Everyone should be used to this kind of thing happening” comment yesterday…

      2. PolarVortex*

        What the what?!

        One should never get used to this, if this becomes normalized that’s not okay.

    7. OyHiOh*

      I’m very lucky to have a boss with a deep dive perspective on the US (he took this job in the middle of writing his dissertation). He kept current events out of our staff meeting yesterday, but was available for a debrief when I asked for it later in the day. There’s a subset of American culture that’s weirdly anti intellectual (and always has been) but for me, it was tremendously helpful to get a deeply educated and thoughtful point of view, with comparisons to US historical events that are in some ways similar.

      And then I went back to my office and played the soundtrack to Parade for the rest of the day (“Parade is a musical with a book by Alfred Uhry and music and lyrics by Jason Robert Brown. The musical is a dramatization of the 1913 trial and imprisonment, and 1915 lynching, of Jewish American Leo Frank in [Atlanta] Georgia.”) Quote is from Wiki, which has a very good page on the musical and the story behind it. In my theater/writer/performer brain, it felt appropriate for the week.

    8. Katie Porter's Whiteboard*

      My direct manager sent a message to her reports on Wednesday telling us to take whatever time we needed and to go home if we needed that space to process. I proactively told her that I didn’t want to discuss our upcoming meeting and she totally respected that. I manage some students and I reached out, cancelled all meetings for Thursday/Friday, offered to reschedule for something that worked for them, and told them that I would be available to talk, either about the coup attempt or avoiding that topic altogether.

      But I’ve been incredibly disappointed in our director and parent institution for their complete radio silence on it.

      1. funkydonut*

        It sounds to me like you handled it really well with your students. I would have definitely appreciated a message from my direct manager like you got. Instead we just got a sort of “yeah this is crazy!” message on our slack thread about it and then the “go check the news now” sentence at the end of our meeting the day after.

    9. RagingADHD*

      I got lucky that my client cancelled our call this week for unrelated reasons. All my work is generated by such calls, so I’m effectively on an extra holiday week.

      I wouldn’t have been able to focus on anything anyway – which reminds me, I haven’t even updated my project manager about the schedule. Better do that today.

    10. Fiona*

      I’ve had a lot of trouble focusing. I feel fortunate that we got an email on Wednesday late afternoon from a high up boss saying we should feel free to cancel meetings / log off / take care of ourselves. And my immediate team met on Thursday to just debrief. But it’s tough not to feel horribly distracted and depressed.

    11. AceInPlainSight*

      I’ve been struggling since the beginning of the pandemic- I work in R&D with lots of government contracts, and we’ve been classed as essential so that we can continue to go to the lab. We’re only essential in that the military ‘needs’ slightly better toys than it already has. It all just feels pointless.

    12. Donkey Hotey*

      Right there with you, friend.
      Wednesday, I think I managed an entire half hour’s worth of work in eight hours.
      Thankfully, I’m up to date and ahead on all my projects, so it comes out in the wash, BUT STILL.
      Related, I have learned that it is possible to work with people I don’t respect.

    13. Ashloo*

      Not a word from our leadership. I had such a headache Wednesday hitting evening deadlines. It’s been difficult to care about anything other than doing enough to keep the job and make sure clients are just satisfied for months now. No complaints from anyone, thankfully.

    14. Hotdog not dog*

      “We” are apparently pretending nothing much is going on in the world….but I am far from the only employee at my company who is not well focused on work right now.

    15. Reba*

      I’m in DC. Yes.

      We got a message from the top that actually did a great job striking the balance of “take care of yourself and here’s the safety plan” / “the work we do is important, we are proud of you and let’s keep going.” I appreciated it, anyway.

      Issue I’m facing the past couple days is that I ought to be communicating with people in other places… Putting it off because it feels very odd *not* to acknowledge what’s happening, but I just do not want to go there!

      1. funkydonut*

        I’m sorry you’re dealing with this while living there! I grew up in the DC area though I’m not there anymore and I can’t imagine the stress. I am glad you got a good message from above.

    16. Jules the 3rd*

      The CEO of the company that I work for put out a letter saying we condemn the violence. Internally, it’s been only ‘suspend scheduled social media updates and here’s the EAP’. My manager works in Europe, dead silence. But he barely remembers me in the best of times.

    17. Victoria, Please*

      Somehow on Wednesday itself I managed to hang in there. Yesterday was maybe my least productive day in months; I feel like I should take a retroactive sick day (state worker here, very sensitive to my responsibility to taxpayers!).

      I encouraged my team to do what they needed to do, checked in with them, etc.

    18. Anon for this*

      My boss was wonderful. She told us to be kind to ourselves and that if we needed to check out (we’re all working from home), take some time, take a nap, whatever we needed to do it.

      As for coping, Wed and Thursday I was mostly contacting my elected officials, rage donating and doomscrolling. Today, I’ve been able to focus a bit more.

    19. Toothless*

      One of the managers in the chain between me and the CEO is married to a congresswoman, so everyone that reports to him got an email expressing his sadness about the events and talking about what the company is doing to speak out against the rioters, along with some generic “take care of yourself and be kind to each other” stuff.

    20. MissDisplaced*

      Oh yes. I think nearly ALL OF the United States is having a stress crisis right now. Things are just really, really trying all over with the Pandemic and the Orange Crazy Man and all the anger and division and chaos he’s caused.

      I work for a big company and a few people have died in recent months (whether from COVID or other issues they won’t say). But the work just goes on and we’re expected to keep our numbers up and just, you know, sort of ignore that people have died and won’t be on this or that team anymore. It’s almost as if they got laid off or left, not died.

    21. Fed Anon*

      I work for the federal government out of DC, although I’m personally located elsewhere. We had a call to check in on Thursday that involved multiple people openly crying and talk of resignations. These are civilian bureaucrats that have worked 20-30 years without political affiliation, but are feeling so lost and ashamed of being associated with this administration.

      The assault is bad enough but coupled with the contrast with BLM, and many of our black coworkers are absolutely devastated. I worked in DC on 9/11, and this felt so much worse to me, even though I could see the smoking pentagon from my office on that day.

    22. JustaTech*

      My direct boss said nothing, nor did the CEO in the semi-social meeting I had with him (and a dozen other people) on Thursday morning. I brought it up to my skip-level boss in our meeting this morning and he was like “yeah, that was a thing!”

      My spouse’s boss, on the other hand explicitly said “I understand if you don’t get a lot of work done today. Please check in on your reports, especially the politically involved or sensitive ones.”

      Personally, I’ve been hiding in data analysis and trying to stay off Twitter. Hasn’t been working, but I’ve tried.

    23. Quinalla*

      I don’t feel like my job is pointless, but I am having a hard time focusing. Nothing has been addressed by leadership (but might today as they tend to send out weekly emails on Friday that address big picture things), but folks have talked about it in a few meetings, trying to keep their personal politics out of it which has been good because we all definitely do NOT agree on those :)

    24. Not So NewReader*

      I had to hang on to something my late husband said after the WTC: We reeeally need to see each other doing our jobs and keeping our systems working. I did leave a bit ahead of schedule, but I went back in the next day. Sometimes it just makes sense to go home if possible.

      Courage and encouragement come in odd packages.

      Personally, I think people need to see each other and talk to each other first and foremost. After that we need to see that others are still going forward with their work as best they can.

    25. KR*

      My company is full steam ahead and so extremely busy. I think if I mentioned feeling distracted or anxious about the news they’d probably tell me it’s understandable but I need to focus on work when I’m at work and these deliverables have to happen as soon as possible, which is frustrating and why I haven’t bothered to bring anything up. It’s annoying though.

    26. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I honestly didn’t even try Thursday. I had been allowed to carry over three vacation days from last year, and I’m under instruction to use them up as soon as possible. So I took one on Thursday. Physical chores helped a little.

    27. Simpsons Did It First*

      It’s been so frustrating. My company made a big show of support this summer but crickets this week. They reminded us we can use the EAP or take time off. Except we’re understaffed so any time I take off makes me have to work more hours and there’s no relief in sight (even before this week’s events). I applied to 1 job this week and think I might start a search, tho I’m sure it’s awful at many companies.

    28. Kate H*

      Yes. At four on Wednesday my boss held a (virtual) meeting to talk about how we need to standardize naming conventions for our files and how we should be using a certain project management software. It was a thirty-minute meeting and I didn’t take in a single word. We usually use video but I left mine off because I didn’t want them to know that I was glued to the news. He also started the meeting by commenting on how quiet we all were and making a joke about how we all just wanted to go home. I have to believe that he didn’t know what was happening.

      Our CEO sent out a company-wide email the next morning and it’s literally the only time I’ve heard anyone mention it at work. As for how I’m coping, I spent Thursday barely able to function and Friday in an endless round of training meetings that made me want to scream but at least distracted me from the news.

  12. Anon for this here post*

    Can someone explain the role of an “Assistant to the Department”? Does this person support everyone in the department? Do they have seniority over others, or does it depend on the role/person/boss?

    1. JokeyJules*

      typically that would be an admin-like role. no seniority over anyone, but also not reporting to anyone but the dept manager. I’ve held this position before and supported staff with various admin-type tasks like tracking work projects, making sure the back end of everything was running smoothly (everyone is on the email group, everyones added to meetings, maintaining a pto schedule, ordering materials the staff need). it was very clearly established that i did not report to anyone but the manager of the whole dept.

    2. RagingADHD*

      I have seen roles similar to this, as described by Jules, but that reported to either an office manager or to a head of admin staff who was outside the department.

      …At least, on paper. The downside of a reporting structure like that is you are taking assignments & direction from everyone in the department but you may not have anyone in the department looking out for you or backing you up.

      You really need that manager to be strong & invest a *lot* of trust in you, for the outside-reporting situation to work well.

      1. JokeyJules*

        yep, i definitely had to work to establish a “i’m not asking you, i’m telling you, and you are not directing me, you’re asking me” type of relationship with my peers when it came to assigning projects or other tasks, and that required a lot of backup from the dept manager. consistency and being fair was HUGELY important as well.

    3. The New Normal*

      I’ve had that position. I reported to the department manager directly, but my job was to assist anyone in the department who needed it. I had my regular assignments from the manager for my day-to-day tasks, but I would often be approached to help draft a letter or email, assist with project tracking, be the main point of contact for the department, and overall manage workflow.

      1. Anon4This*

        This is how our department assistant works. They report to me, but they do projects for all the other managers as well as pinch hit with project teams when we’re slammed. Ours is exceptional and has been given a lot of special projects based off their track record. They are responsible for routine tasks like reporting and scheduling but have a pretty broad portfolio for various members of the department.

    4. pretzelgirl*

      I do this now. I am happy to help answer any other questions you may have. I report directly to our department head. But support a large department with several tasks, along with other daily tasks I do. Basically people can give me work to do, but most of the time my boss knows about it and approves. I am lucky to work for a great group of people. They are understanding of my time and thank me all the time. The nice part about this (at least for me) is that most the department I support is very busy so I am usually left to handle my work load as I see fit. The downside is sometimes I get slammed with stuff to do for others, that I have to accomplish on top of other stuff I do. But I am always open and honest with people about time. Which I think is important. I really like it. I also like my boss and colleagues. I could see it being the opposite if you did’nt have a good boss and team.

      I do not have seniority, but my I have a great team and boss. Who literally always have my back. My boss has gone to bat for me several times, as has my team. I love them. My pay is not great, but I have worked HORRIBLE places before and honestly I cant imagine leaving at this point in my life.

    5. AnotherLibrarian*

      In the world of academics, this would be basically an admirative assistant who helps out the whole department rather than one person. In my school, they work for the department head, technically, but basically deal with everyone’s stuff. Can be thankless, but some people love it. Larger departments, they might manage student assistants or staff, but not too often.

      1. tamarack and fireweed*

        I might add, also in academic and similar loosely structured environments: There may only one (part-time) assistant for a whole multi-person department, so individual employees cannot expect much special help. The bulk of the responsibilities would be administrative tasks for the dept. as a whole: answer external phone calls that don’t go to an individual employee and questions about what-is-where, own conference room booking and internal communication, oversee the work of janitorial staff and facilities workers checking out something-or-other, ensure incoming and outgoing paperwork is routed correctly, key requests, functioning of copiers and other office equipment, ordering of supplies, events etc. as well as possibly reporting on any of these.

    6. The Other Dawn*

      We had a role like that at a previous company and she was the admin for the department, helping all of us in some way and having no managerial duties. It was the lowest level role in the department in terms of seniority.

  13. Frustrated Employee*

    Is it possible to give feedback to executives on a tone-deaf company-wide email?

    I’m sure we’re all aware of Wednesday’s attempted coup. On Thursday, we got an email from our company president, saying “the images many of us watched unfold yesterday in our nation’s capital were deeply troubling … Yet, within hours, order was restored, and members of Congress returned to their work … I also want to stress the importance of us staying focused on the work we do.”

    Personally, I found Wednesday’s events far more than just “deeply troubling.” I was in tears. Congress went back to work because they were Constitutionally mandated to. They should have been able to go home and get therapy and process the trauma. And as more news is published about this (the failure to timely deploy the National Guard, etc.), the more outraged I feel. I can’t sit by and do nothing, I want to write my Congresspeople, call them, and DO SOMETHING.

    But sure, let me focus on coding an email to sell your webinars on the services we provide (that fewer people are able to use because financial and business impacts of the pandemic).

    1. hello*

      If you’re feeling traumatized by this event (or any other), it’s okay to take a day off. I think your emotions are getting in the way of your perception of a perfectly normal corporate email.

      1. Fiona*

        Eh, I would be bothered by this email too. “It’s important to stay focused on the work we do” is not the appropriate message here.

      2. cat lady*

        HARD disagree that this was a “perfectly normal corporate email.” It was an unprecedented event, brought about by years of traumatizing rhetoric, and deserves a thoughtful response that acknowledges how not normal the event was.

    2. CovidTester*

      I appreciate that our congresscritters stepped back in to do the job they were there to do. Personally, as someone that works in covid testing and has had physical threats over whether or not the science we do is ‘fraudulent’, adrenaline has absolutely made some of us MORE empowered to carry out very important jobs to keep society moving forward.

      The idea of working on a team (whether diagnostics or legislation) towards a common goal can carry people beyond their trauma – that’s why the military emphasizes team cohesion over individuality. Some jobs just require that.

      Confirming our next president ESPECIALLY in the face of such an attack was a powerful and needed move for the country’s psyche.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. This. We needed to see people acting strong in spite of their fears. And, phew, boy, did we ever.

      2. Bubble Teacher*

        I’m not American, so caveat that this is from a horrified bystander, but I was deeply impressed by the Oh HELL NO! determination of many members of the senate on Wednesday night.

        Jedi hugs to you all. The rest of the world isn’t laughing, we’re horrified and standing behind those of you who are feeling the same.

    3. RagingADHD*

      I understand how you feel, but unless your company embraces a very flat org chart and the president has previously shown themselves open to feedback, I don’t think there’s any point.

      It’s the kind of thing that will harm your standing without any useful upside.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        +1 Channel that pain / anger into action, and find ways to process it. Some options:
        1) Joining a voter registration group in your state. League of Women Voters usually has a good registration branch, or NAACP or NOW.
        2) Research what GA activists did, and find people who are trying to move that model to your state. Reading about Abrams AND Ufot AND Campbell AND Scott AND Brown is inspiring. representcollaborative.com has a good story on them, and there’s lot of links to / from their respective orgs. I have noticed a significant difference in rallies in Nov / Dec vs earlier ones, as my state progressives study their model.
        3) Spend some time reading / watching Heather Cox Richardson’s history posts on facebook, she really puts it all in perspective
        4) Consume a bunch of Michael Harriot , at The Root or Very Smart Brothas, or his poetry, or his podcast. He makes me laugh and cry, often at the same time.
        5) I’ve had Donald Glover’s “This Is America” on replay a lot, along with Rage Against The Machine and different versions of “Lift Every Voice and Sing”. Whatever your protest music is, now is the time.
        6) Review your local landscape, and see if there’s anything you can do. I need to drag a trashbag on one of my neighborhood walks and spend 15 minutes picking up, for example. Maybe this weekend if it’s not too wet… But there’s also local food banks that would love volunteers or $$. Again, a plug for NAACP as a worthy and effective organization.

        Yeah, it’s been tough. I made my kid stop school so we could watch what was going on together. This was at least 9/11 important, even if they were not able to stop our democratic process, just delay it. Because this was our own neighbors, sometimes even our own families, and that’s hard.

        1. kt*

          I love your comments, as it’s how I think too.

          One more music suggestion: Janelle Monae’s Dirty Computer.

        2. Urban Prof*

          Great post, Jules the 3rd. Michael Harriot is a particular favorite of mine. He’s flat-out brilliant.

      2. Littorally*

        Agreed. There is nothing to be gained and much to be lost by trying to give feedback to the president on this.

    4. singularity*

      I got an equally tone-deaf email explaining the importance of remaining politically neutral during these “historic events” and ‘keeping to the facts.’ I work as a high school teacher. I get where administration is coming from, but what the heck is that supposed to mean? I have to ‘strive for impartiality’ and ‘encourage civility’ when discussing it… I’m supposed to remain neutral how exactly? Right-wing extremists stormed the capitol building attempting a coup at the encouragement of our President. Where is the neutrality? I am deeply uncomfortable with what the email asked of us.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        Sounds like the principal doesn’t want to deal with crazy right wing parents accusing you of indoctrinating their kids. I’m so sorry you have to deal with that on top of the actual work of educating young minds.

        1. kittymommy*

          And if you work for a publicly funded school you may be required to stay politically neutral, at least while on the clock. I work for municipal government and we cannot show a political leaning while at work.

          1. Malarkey01*

            The fact that condemning armed attacks and riots on the capitol with the stated aim of disrupting and destroying the democratic process is not a universal political stance and not a leaning is scary as crap.

      2. Veronica*

        Our school admin sent out an email to say that what happened was against the values the school requires of students to uphold democracy. It was signed by all the principal’s and senior administrators. They were very clear that one of the major purposes of the school system is to educate citizens to function in a democracy. The tone was politically neutral and focused on the democratic process. So it is possible.

      3. Disco Janet*

        One of my coworkers was officially reprimanded for saying that what happened at the Capitol was wrong. I am baffled and angry and question the district I work for. Not being proud to be a part of it.

        Saying that what happened is wrong should not be seen as a biased statement. It should just be a fact. I’m so over the emphasis being on not upsetting the conservative parents in our community who are extreme enough that they support this.

        And I’m supposed to be doing a unit on vaccines and herd immunity soon! Not by my choice – it’s in my curriculum. But be impartial and don’t say anything that will offend anyone. Which seems to be impossible.

    5. funkydonut*

      I’m so sorry you got that horribly inappropriate email. I would not respond to it, however, as I don’t think it would be taken well.

    6. Yellow Warbler*

      I (and a lot of people in my circle) just took a LOT of PTO for the holiday, so taking time off in the first couple of weeks of January is “just not done”. That seems to be the fallback excuse, which is not a good scapegoat given the insanity of what’s going on.

    7. Maggie*

      It depends on how much you want to expend on that feedback. It sounds like you’re already stressed and upset so getting into what could be a heated discussion or emotional conversation with executives probably wouldn’t serve you well. I think Congress was doing their jobs and should have had to go back to work that night and I’m glad they did. I try to remind myself of all the very difficult situations that we’ve had through history and people keep on going somehow which I find very inspiring. So, I understand that the email was upsetting for you and that’s ok but I don’t think it would actually improve anything to expend energy on it. :/

  14. Rebecca Black*

    What are good questions to ask during a job interview to determine the vibe of a place? Also, what are good answers to discuss why you are leaving an environment that is difficult, without throwing your current employer under the bus?

    1. warmeverythingbagel*

      Some common questions I ask: How would you describe the company culture? What type of people really thrive at your company? What do you love about working here? How often do people work cross-departmentally? What might that look like in this role? How would you describe the work-life balance here? Are there a lot of out-of-office commitments (like evening events, late scrambling or weekend emails)? Is there a busy season for this role? What does that look like verses the off-season? What challenges would this position face?

      As to why leaving, I always take a hard look at the reasons I’m leaving and then soften and simplify it. Toxic culture? “I’m looking for a better fit.” Unrealistic expectations from your boss? “I was being stretched thin in too many ways, and want a role that lets me focus my energy in one direction.”

      2. Bostonian*

        I like the “what type of people thrive at your company” angle to the question (or any one of those more specific ones than “describe company culture”), because culture can include a lot of things, so the interviewer may focus on a few things without hitting exactly what you want to know.

        1. warmeverythingbagel*

          Totally agree! I like the basic company culture question first because 1) it’s a fairly common question and a nice softball to get into a good rapport with the interviewer, and 2) it’s often quite revealing what they focus on (“we’re very social and have company happy hours often” tells me something different than “we often work with other departments on projects”). Then I ask follow up questions with more specific things!

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I have a magic question…
      “Let’s say it’s my first day and you only have one hour available to talk with me. What would you discuss during that meeting?”
      I’m a woman in tech and I use this to fish out misogynists. A jerk will use this time to talk about themselves and the company. But a good manager will use this time to ask for your opinion on current problems and get feedback on their processes.
      Good managers want to learn from you, and learn with you. Bad managers just want to tell you what to do.

      1. HD*

        That’s really interesting. I’m also a woman in tech and I’ll have to keep that question in mind.

      2. CovidTester*

        >But a good manager will use this time to ask for your opinion on current problems and get feedback on their processes.

        Hmm, I don’t fully agree. I’m also a woman in tech and I wouldn’t expect or want to be asked about my new employer’s current problems on my first day at work! I’d feel much more more comfortable reporting to a boss that told me how the company operates and has the authority to get things done beyond “management by consensus” which seems to be all the rage, with some opinion asking thrown in. I’d say 80% 20% in favor of following what a leader expects.

        1. AndersonDarling*

          Yeah, it probably depends on what kind of role you have. I’m mid a career and most of my job is bringing legacy systems up to modern times. You’d think that anyone that hired me would be ready to have me step up and roll out changes, but twice I’ve changed jobs just to be ignored. *insert Charlie Brown ARRGH*
          I wouldn’t expect a Jr. Analyst to speak to process updates on the first day. But you can tell a lot from a manager that just talks about how great they are vs asking about your successes.

    3. Ama*

      When I left my most dysfunctional job, I tried to think of ways to rephrase what I was trying to get away from as what I was hoping to move towards. For example, old job was constantly putting out fires because everyone waited until the last minute to make decisions, so I would tell employers that I was looking to move into a job that had more of an emphasis on proactive planning and long-term strategy (this might have actually gotten me my current job — the hiring manager’s face lit up when I elaborated and said I preferred to plan projects out weeks, if not months, in advance).

      Old job also had me doing everything from managing a donor database to building management because they were in denial about the amount of staff they really needed, so I also said I was looking for a more focused set of responsibilities that would allow me to truly learn and grow my skills in my area of interest.

    4. Lifeandlimb*

      I’ve usually gotten interesting replies to, “What are your favorite and least favorite things about this job?”
      Also, “Would you describe the office environment as more casual or formal?” “What is the social environment like for employees here?” “What is management like when dealing with employee issues?”

    5. shoutouts*

      Focus on what you’re running towards, not what you’re running away from. “While I currently do llama grooming and tea cup design, I find myself getting more interested in llamas and so your position, which is llamacentric, appealed to me.”

      I’ve heard on this board that some companies dig deep and press for why you’re leaving, but in my experience both as a job seeker and someone who’s been on LOTS of hiring committees, it’s best to pivot towards what draws you to the new place.

    6. pretzelgirl*

      How do you handle work life balance? Can I float holidays? Can I flex time for doctor’s appointments, school functions for my kids? How is the culture here?

      These are important to me. I have 3 little kids. I will need time off for doctor appointments, school functions (in regular non-pandemic times) etc. How they respond is key. If they look annoyed by this question, stumble etc. I run. I need work life balance.

      1. Midwest writer*

        My last job and my current job both emphasized flexibility and the ability to make changes on the fly for childcare. They meant it and it has meant a world of difference to me. Someday, my kids will be big enough this won’t be such an issue, but right now it’s huge.

    7. reject187*

      You can also ask the interviewer if there’s any current employees you could talk to about the environment and culture. My husband was given the opportunity to talk to two or three people before he was offered the job, and they all said most of the same things about the culture, which helped him decide to take the position. Of course they might be cherry-picked by the company to say good things, but if they refuse to let you talk to anyone, that’s also something to keep in mind as you make a decision.

    8. Filosofickle*

      A couple of things I’ve asked…
      How long they’ve been there, and why they joined (if new) and stay (if long time). Stay is the one that helps here.
      What 3 words they’d use to describe the culture. (That’s basically the vibe question, directly.)
      What they like about working for their boss (for a peer level interview)

    9. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I guess I would ask (if they didn’t offer) if I could walk through the office and meet potential coworkers and associates. I think careful observation of what the environment looks like conveys more than words: are all the doors closed, do people have photos and fun things on their desks (or does Franklin Hart, Jr. run the place), how is everyone dressed, are there people in the break room, do people look stressed and barely acknowledge you, are there lots of empty desks or is every nook and cranny filled, is the place dirty and falling apart.

      If you can’t see the office you’ll be working in, you could ask if you’ll have a training/transition period or be expected to hit the ground running. IME “ground-running” type offices tend to mean the didn’t/don’t plan ahead and don’t value training and development of employees.

    10. voluptuousfire*

      I ask “what are the expected hours?” I started asking that to get an idea of general business hours vs. hours people usually put in. Some places may be 9-6 business hours but people may work 8-7 or something because of “hustle” culture or whatever.

    11. TL -*

      I don’t know if you could ask this question, but one of the most enlightening questions I’ve asked in my brief interviewing experience is, “Deadlines get pushed and missed sometimes. How do you handle it when it’s clear a deadline isn’t going to be met?”

  15. irene adler*

    I think I was hazed at the start of a recent job interview.

    Yellow flag? Or is this a new way to evaluate job candidates that I’m not familiar with?

    Details:

    Phone screen: went well.

    First interview with the Hiring Manager. This went very well.

    Second interview with the 5 co-workers (panel interview via Zoom).

    Here’s where things went wrong. The first interviewer’s very first question was “You have a great resume. However, this position requires accuracy and attention to detail. And I see you have misspelled ‘attention to detail’ on your resume. How do you explain that?”

    Before I could respond, all 4 of the co-workers jumped on the first interviewer. I heard: “Move on! Ask your next question.”, “Aww, don’t do that.”, “Don’t ask that question!” As this was on Zoom, things got a bit garbled so I couldn’t catch everything that was said. But I got the gist. The remainder of the panel did not like that question.

    The problem: Throughout the balance of the interview, I was preoccupied with the “attention to detail” comment. I couldn’t fully focus on my responses to the subsequent questions (which were all normal interview questions). I felt ‘off-base’ wondering if I had in fact made such a blundering error on my resume.

    After the interview concluded, I read through my entire resume. The phrase “attention to detail” isn’t even on there (and there are no misspellings)!

    So what was the point of asking such a question?

    (I haven’t been rejected -yet -for consideration for this role. Maybe I did okay. )

    1. Frustrated Employee*

      Ideally, you would have had a copy of your resume in front of you. If you had, you’d have been able to ensure that the person on the interview panel had the correct resume in front of them.

      1. irene adler*

        I did. But I didn’t want to stop things and read it. The remaining 4 on the panel wanted to move on. So I figured I shouldn’t belabor the point.

    2. JokeyJules*

      it sounds like the first interviewer is kind of a jerk, and the rest of the team is aware of that. it was likely a “strategy” to see how confidently you deal with questions like that, which the first interviewer thinks will indicate how well you think on your feet, if you’ll push back and correct him, etc.

      1. The Rural Juror*

        It speaks to the rest of the team that they shot that person down. At least you would have 4 people in your corner!

        1. JokeyJules*

          definitely an upside! but the upside/downside is now you see that interviewer 1 does that stuff, the other 4 say something….aaaaand 1 still does it.

    3. MissGirl*

      It sounds like this one employee is a bit of a jerk who was messing with you or testing you for an asinine reason and the other coworkers called him out on it. (He’s probably done it before.) I would send an email to the hiring manager say something like, “I was a bit confused by John’s comment about my resume as that phrase doesn’t appear there.” Then see how the manager responds.

      1. Threeve*

        Yeah, he either thinks this is a good interview strategy or it’s “funny.” Either way, you know you’re dealing with someone who is kind of an a-hole who won’t listen when his coworkers ask him to stop doing something.

        It’s kind of worse if it’s supposed to be a joke, because then you know you’re dealing with someone willing to make jokes at the expense of others. It’s a bit of a yellow flag, and I would ask what the deal with it was and try to get a sense of how closely you’d be working with him.

      3. tamarack and fireweed*

        Yes, good advice!

        It’s unfortunate they assembled a panel that was, manifestly, not really up to doing the task correctly. The jerk being called out is good, but it still confused and derailed the OP. Not much they can do about it, but a short two-sentence paragraph in the follow-up email may be the best bet.

    4. MMMMmmmmmmmMMM*

      I’VE HAD THIS HAPPEN TO ME TOO! Different phrase that was “misspelled” but still nothing was incorrect.

      It was incredibly jarring and upsetting. Ideally you’d have your resume in front of you, and you could say, “I’m sorry, do you have the right copy, mine doesn’t use that phrase.”

      In my case, I was doing a phone interview in my car and did not have my resume in front of me. Afterwards I looked through it and was baffled because nothing was wrong.

      1. irene adler*

        I’m glad I’m not the only one. Thank you for posting.
        But I’m not pleased there’s more than one asshat out there doing this to people. And I’m sorry you experienced this.

    5. kbeers0su*

      Considering how quickly the rest of the group jumped on Interviewer 1, I would bet Interviewer 1 is the type of person who doesn’t understand how interviews are actually supposed to be run. Probably also the kind of person who judges someone on their handshake or asks questions like “what kind of animal would you be or why” and actually tries to interpret the candidate’s response. I know these people, I hate these people, and I’ll hope the other interviewers in the room will tell whoever they report back to (hiring manager) that Interviewer 1 was a jerk to you. Sorry that happened!

    6. WellRed*

      Probably some asshole’s idea of a “clever” question to see how you respond under pressure.

      1. Dave*

        This is my guess along with recall detail for what you have on your resume. Seems like a bit of a jerk move way to test it though.

      2. tamarack and fireweed*

        … which was almost certainly coloring outside the lines of the mission he was supposed to fulfill by being on the panel.

        Though if it *was* the OP is well shot of this company.

    7. HD*

      Wow. Yeah, this is almost certainly someone being funny or playing games at the expense of a job candidate. It’s something you and your coworkers maybe joke about doing but don’t actually do. I’m glad everyone called this guy out.

    8. RagingADHD*

      Over the years, I have learned that the best way to handle things when I’m flustered or thrown off balance is to stop, acknowledge that, and address it directly.

      It has a number of advantages:

      1) It doesn’t make you look stupid. It makes you look calm, thoughtful, and resilient.

      2) It immediately takes the conversation out of gamesmanship or showmanship and makes it an authentic human conversation.

      3) People who are good to work with will consider it a reasonable and normal response. People you don’t want to work with will react badly.

      4) It demonstrates the ability to cope with new, odd, or stressful situations in a realistic and constructive way.

      5) It frustrates people who are trying to throw you on purpose, by denying them the opportunity. In that sense it’s a kind of “power move.” (Though that’s just a side bonus).

      I’m sorry this guy was a jerk. I agree with others that it sounds like he’s the Known Isssue on the team, and the other panelists will consider your interview in a sympathetic light.

      If you do get an offer, consider that apparently this guy is a Known Issue, and somebody put him on the interview panel anyway. So he will be an issue you’d have to deal with regularly. Make sure the offer is worth it.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Agree with all and particularly the last point – that guy was clearly asking an unapproved question based on the reactions of the others, the others were clearly expecting him to do so (and probably asked him not to beforehand) based on the quickness of the multiple responses, and as it was based on a lie it was completely invalid anyway. Having that guy on the panel was a waste of the panel’s time, but maybe not yours if it gives you an insight into the group dynamics. They were willing to risk a candidate’s potentially negative reaction (to a ridiculous, provocative, and false-premised question) by having him on the panel.

    9. Yellow Warbler*

      I would follow up, from the perspective that recruiters in some fields are infamous for jailbreaking resumes and changing them however they want. I’d want to make sure the version they had was the one I submitted.

  16. Hairy Poppins*

    My boss has a reputation for being difficult. (Unfortunately I didn’t didn’t find this out until after I was hired.) When she gets mad, she makes it personal and will go on a rant about the person. For example, she was mad at the executive assistant in another department and went on a rant about how she was “probably drinking all night instead of working” and “at the bar all night” (This was before they closed places/stopped indoor dining.) This was said during our staff meeting. (The executive assistant wasn’t there in the meeting.) No one said anything, but I thought that it was inappropriate and unprofessional.

    Plus, I assume that she does the same thing when she gets mad at one of us in our department for something.

    Has anyone else experienced this? What did you do?

    1. LKW*

      Unfortunately yes and I left within 3 months. You really don’t have the leverage or seniority to make this better. Someone who is in a leadership position and doesn’t understand how to constructively argue or disagree is not something you can change.

      Until then if it’s directed at you, you can, using your stern librarian quiet voice, say something like personal attacks are not constructive and you’d like her to focus on the specific issues she has with your work so that you can improve. But yah, you got to start looking again. Sorry.

      1. Who moved my cheese?*

        Seconding this. I left, the 2+ people after me left, the 3 people before me left. Obviously find someone else as a reference and if anyone asks for your boss specifically, you can say “I don’t feel that she will provide an accurate reference, as I have heard her say things about coworkers that I know to be untrue, so I won’t be using her as a reference.” They can contact her independently if they want.

        If she says something disparaging about someone’s character (“Warbelina is so stupid!”) you can politely disagree based on your own observations.

    2. JustKnope*

      My recommendation is to stay as neutral as possible when she goes on those rants. I had a boss like this when I first started out in the corporate world, and I let myself get really wrapped up in her emotional outbursts and would start participating. *shudder* Granted I was 23, and didn’t really know better, but she warped my sense of what was “normal” for a long time. I finally got enough solid feedback from mentors that I learned to keep my face and language very neutral when she would start freaking out, and not to get sucked into complaining/ranting/whining with her. Other tips: build solid relationships for yourself so people can see that you are not your boss; keep lots of written documentation of decisions/instructions; get direct exposure to Grandboss(es) when possible. I ended up building enough credibility and an excellent performance track record to say to Grandboss during a reorg – I either get a new boss or I’m out. Still shocked they listened to someone so young, but I was shouldering a ton of responsibility at that point.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Yes, it is inappropriate and unprofessional.

      Yes, she absolutely talks that way about you & everyone else behind your backs.

      You deal with it by remembering those 2 facts at all times, and conduct your relationship with her accordingly. That includes keeping her at arm’s length, never giving her ammunition about yourself or anyone else, and making sure you have opportunities to show your real ability & character to senior people, so they know she’s lying when she badmouths you.

      And of course, it always includes knowing exactly what you are getting out of the job, what it’s worth, and what it would take to find the same pay/benefits/opportunities elsewhere.

    4. Teensy*

      I started looking for other work. That’s the only solution I can think of when it’s your boss.

    5. TL -*

      Ugh. One thing you can do is acknowledge and softly redirect to a better excuse, something like, “Oh that sounds so frustrating and I have no idea why she didn’t make that deadline! I know she’s swamped, but it’s completely reasonable to expect an email if different priorities pop up!”

      I do this with my way, way, way more reasonable boss when she’s processing difficult feedback (usually people complaining about things we can’t change) and it’s effective – lets her vent and feel heard but also softly reminds her that other people don’t have the context and are probably reasonably frustrated.

      That being said, my boss would NEVER say someone was probably out drinking all night (!!). At most, she would say firmly that was a very reasonable deadline and it should have been met and it’s frustrating that it wasn’t. So IDK if this will work for your boss.

  17. C6 CEO*

    I need your help deciding what to do about a work from home stipend. I’m thinking $110-$120/mo to help employees offset costs like phone, internet, utilities. A few legacy employees have their full cell phone bills covered, but if I go with a stipend I would end that.

    When we first went remote, I told employees to take home whatever office equipment they needed. That doesn’t cover everyone’s needs plus we have a couple new employees who are fully remote and didn’t have that opportunity. So, I was thinking a one-time stipend of $300 (?) for setting up their home workspace.

    We’re a 501(c)6 nonprofit trade association with a small staff and a small budget.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. PolarVortex*

      I honestly think any money is better than none but a thought on your stipend/phone situation: how much do your employees use their phone as a part of their job? Might be good to look into an internet phone situation – you can take calls through your internet/computer usually via headset, or if you don’t like that, there’s an app for your cell phone for a lot of them. Bypasses paying for some employees’ cell plans and stipending the rest when cell plans aren’t that cheap.

      My company shifted to this long before shifting to WFH, but it’s been an extra benefit now.

      1. C6 CEO*

        Thanks. We have a super low call volume and the office manager is the only one reasonably expected to take phone calls. Currently, we have the main office number forwarded to her cell phone. I was looking at a VOIP system but I think it might be overkill for us and I am thinking of making the office number a cell number that has its own phone. Everyone else can use their phone for business at their convenience, but most of our other business communications happen via Zoom and Slack now.

    2. WellRed*

      That actually seems really high to me to cover it month in and month out. Maybe I’m just jealous. I’d love a one-time stiped on $100 to put toward a desk.

    3. I'm that guy*

      First of all thank you for thinking of your employees. There was a discussion earlier this week about how some companies were using WFH to cut office costs and push them onto their employees. What you are thinking seems very fair to me.

      My company gave us a $750 stipend back in April of last year to pay for moving to WFH. We can also order home office supplies through a company website as needed. I also work for a large BioPharma company so a completely different scale from yours.

      1. C6 CEO*

        Thanks! I have also separately asked if anyone needed anything else, like our office manager expenses printer ink and will be getting a new printer. Our needs are pretty minimal, though.

    4. Coverage Associate*

      My monthly phone bill is $85 and home internet is $55, for reference. A wfh problem over the summer was lack of air conditioning. I stopped work when my living room got to 85 degrees.

      Consider whether a monthly amount or a one time amount or a combination makes more sense. My company gave nothing, and as a result I only put $20 into my wfh set up (a lap desk). If I had a stipend, I would have arranged a super professional video call space, maybe gotten a monitor for efficiency, etc.

      1. C6 CEO*

        Thanks. We’ll do a combination of monthly and one time. I have been hesitant to make a decision because I wasn’t sure about amounts. I am not trying to cover people’s costs, just offset them.

    5. Dave*

      I think some of this depends on your region and if you are providing a computer for new hires. (And if you are not I would just include that in the job listing.)
      This seems really high to me but I live in low COLA. But I already had home internet and will always have that. As far the the phone I guess it depends on if they need a smart phone with lots of data or if they are just making calls and texting.

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

        But I already had home internet and will always have that.

        There’s an interesting point to be had here about what’s ‘equal’ vs ‘equitable’ treatment… like Dave in the comment above, I was already paying for “unlimited” internet as I do a lot of streaming etc, and already have a good desk/chair/computer set up for personal projects – but I know a lot of my co-workers are not in the same situation and before WFH they didn’t use the internet much at home or only used it on a tablet/phone (rather than a full on PC/Laptop), don’t have a dedicated office area etc.

        So $200 (or whatever the amount is) to me or to my co-workers with a less optimal setup is ‘equal’ but probably not ‘equitable’ in impact. (You could say that it’s additional wear and tear on my computer and that would be true, but I’d put that in the same category as wear and tear on clothes needed to go into the office, especially for people who need to buy “professional”/”formal” clothing which you wouldn’t wear at home… or wear and tear on my car in carrying out the commute — i.e. costs to be borne by me as a cost of doing business!)

        I don’t know what the answer is to this equal vs equitable thing, though. I’ve found myself feeling resentful in the past (a long time in the past, now!) when a company offered, I think it was £100 at the time, to put towards give up smoking / weight loss initiatives (like Weight Watchers type of thing) … the idea I guess was that the health benefit goes to the company as well as the individual. I’ve never been a smoker and didn’t need to lose weight at the time and caught myself thinking “so why can’t I just be given the £100 as I am already a non-smoker” etc. (I still think a better approach would be £100 or whatever towards “healthy initiatives” more generally, such as towards the cost of a gym, mindfulness classes, etc etc).

        1. C6 CEO*

          When I was younger I was so resentful of smoke breaks! I told my boss that nonsmokers should get extra vacation time since we didn’t spend up to an hour a day outside chatting with our friends. Surprisingly, that never happened.

          For employees who didn’t want to take home their giant iMac desktops, or didn’t have room for them, we replaced them with laptops. One employee doesn’t have room for our big office chairs so is buying a different chair. I am hoping to come up with a stipend that seems fair across the board, but then be flexible for those employees who really have different needs.

      2. C6 CEO*

        Thanks. We are based in LA, so not cheap at all, and very expensive to cool your house in the summer. None of our employees except the office manager actually needs phone service to do their jobs, so use of the phone is really at their own convenience.

    6. English, not American*

      My workplace (a nonprofit charity) has been offering £100 toward a desk, £75 toward an office chair, and they provide a laptop/up to 2 monitors/mouse/keyboard. We have to claim the money via a form and it’s paid as a benefit through payroll (so is taxed etc). Our phone lines have been internet-based for years, so that’s not a consideration. The government in the UK has allowed for a tax deduction on £6/wk, which we are getting through payroll but that is the only ongoing payment.

      Obviously costs are vastly different UK vs US, so I don’t feel qualified to name $ figures, but I would probably prioritise the one-off setup stipend over an ongoing one, since phones and broadband are fairly compulsory for working-age people these days, it’s not unreasonable to expect that people have them. Heating and cooling will make the biggest impact to energy bills, but are also much harder to measure what’s “fair”.

      1. C6 CEO*

        Thanks! Your example if helpful. You’re right about the heating/cooling. We are in LA. Our office manager lives in the hottest area and her cooling bills over the summer were astronomical.

    7. C3 Director*

      I think my company has been great with this–we were already receiving $60 per month for phone, and they added another $60 to offset internet or utilities, plus $20 for any additional supplies. So now we receive an extra $140, which has been hugely helpful. I should say that we’re in a high COL area, and we have about 400 employees.

      1. C6 CEO*

        Thanks for the examples. We are in LA, so it is pretty expensive here, but we have fewer than 10 employees.

    8. Deborah*

      My employer provides my laptop, docking station, internet based phone, and headset for calls (actually, I just took all that home with me; I work in IT and am salaried so my regular computer is a laptop with docking station at the office). I didn’t really think about it, because I have a good desk and chair; the desk was expensive but you can get a serviceable one for about $100-150 (the put together manufactured wood) or cheaper for used I suppose, and honestly I bought a chair for $75 that was the best one under $500 at the office store a couple years ago. I priced some of the equipment recently: docking station around $100 (the laptop is so small it doesn’t have an Ethernet port), headset around $30, etc. I assume you are providing the computer, since that is more in the range of $1000 unless they can do it with a cheap Chromebook.

      My cell phone bill is a bit high, at $100 per month, but I think on a cheaper service you might be able to do around $60 for an individual. My internet bill is far too high at $125, but one can usually argue with the cable provider for about $60 if you are willing to put in the effort.

      There is the compensation of not having to commute which may or may not be of value. In a big city with very long commutes that might be a factor, especially if it requires expensive parking or if there are costs related to public transit.

      Setup:
      Desk: $100-$150
      Chair: $75-$150
      Various computer equipment

      Ongoing:
      Internet: $60-$120
      Cell phone: $60-100

    9. Quinalla*

      Hard to say on the amounts, seems high to me too for the monthly stipend but in a lower COLA here too. I like that you are doing a one-time setup and a monthly stipend, I think that is great!

    10. WFH Full Time is a new normal*

      You should consider how long your employees are going to need to WFH. I know people who are trying to work from their couch and it’s not ergonomic and very uncomfortable for very long. Once I started WFH I realized that I was stuck at my desk all day and that desk and chair needed to be much more comfortable than the dining room table and chair that was ok for an occasional afternoon WFH session.

      My situation: I didn’t have a desk, I didn’t have a good chair. I brought home my work monitor and my laptop, but the docking station wasn’t working so needed to replace that as well. I got a standing desk (equal or better quality than what was in my office at work) and a nice chair. I expensed the desk ($500 of it) and didn’t expense the chair. I also expensed my headset as the one provided was uncomfortable for more than 30 mins and I’m on video calls 10 hours a day. I’ve probably only expensed half of what I bought to make an environment that works for me, but I did expense what I could. I don’t get reimbursed for my internet, or electricity or AC or heat.

      My suggestion would be provide a one time amount up to $500 per person. If everyone was able to take home a chair (I wasn’t) then maybe lower that a bit. To offset monthly costs, maybe $50 to be spent on internet or phone or whatever that person feels is needed; but don’t be stingy about some get and some don’t. It sounds like the one person who is using their phone for business purposes should have that as a separate expense outside the stipend.

  18. blooming*

    Removed at commenter’s request. (I prefer not to do this, y’all, since other people put time into responding, so please make sure you’re comfortable with what you’re posting before you post it.) – Alison

  19. curious*

    Has anyone every not done a business transaction (a contract, business deal, accepted a job, etc) where everything was perfect but you turned it down due to a gut instinct?

    This was our water cooler talk the other day… it got me thinking.

    1. Sylvan*

      I’ve ignored my bad feeling about accepting a job twice, and regretted it both times. Paying attention to that bad feeling has been helpful in smaller work-related decisions. Also, I’ve listened to my instincts in non-work situations and been very glad I did. As the annoying saying goes, ~gut feelings are guardian angels~. What were you and you coworkers talking over?

      1. JohannaCabal*

        Yup, ignored my gut feeling and took a job. Of course, this was 2009 and I was reeling from a layoff, and to be fair I was receiving unemployment and under the impression I had to take any job offered to me (I may have been wrong). Barely lasted three months before I was fired.

        I also ignored gut feelings about the job that laid me off. In 2008, some financial things went down and a project I was involved in stalled.

      2. curious*

        I like that gut feelings are guardian angels.

        Our coworker conversation was more of a would you? should you? could you? conversation.

        Personally I’ve had this happen. I’m actually debating the situation now. I found a new general practioner doctor, outstanding reviews, nicest person, thorough, pays attention to my concerns…. but I just have this weird feeling about using this doctor. I just can’t put my finger on it. I’m not ready to jump ship yet but my guard is up for no fault of the doctor.

        Professionally I’ve had your situation – years ago I accepted a job offer from an amazing but had that gut feeling. I took the positon thinking I would only stay until I found something else. I found out years later in industry talks and networking that this company is not as great as it appears. But during that time I really suffered in so many ways at that job.

        1. Web Crawler*

          I often go off of my gut feelings, especially with sensitive relationships like doctors/therapists that require trust.

          I probably would in a business setting too, but I’d do my best to back up my gut feeling with any facts that I could get ahold of. Because “they have multiple reviews accusing them of misleading customers” is more persuasive than “I got real bad vibes from them” even if the bad vibes were what made me skim 5 pages of reviews to look for patterns.

          I 99% trust my gut, and the 1% are specific phobias and stereotypes that I’m aware of. (Like being afraid of people who own red pickup trucks. I know. I’m working on it.)

    2. JokeyJules*

      yes. i’ve turned down positions before because of just a genuine bad gut feeling. everyone seemed nice, the company seemed fine, but something just felt off and i couldn’t place it.
      I ration it with if my gut is right – great, i was right, issue avoided. Alternately, if i’m wrong – then ok, i was wrong, and the risk wasn’t worth the reward for me.
      I have no idea if something skeevy was going on or if there was an actual issue with the company – and i never will! but that’s fine. i’m content with where i am.

      2. voluptuousfire*

        Same. I ended up rejecting a job offer a few years ago before I started my current role because my gut was telling me “NOOOOOO!!!” when the interview was perfectly fine. My gut/experience told me I wasn’t being hired because I was the bona fide best candidate for the job but I was the least bad out of a handful of people interviewed. I’m really glad I did that because the job I accepted ended up being a great fit.

    3. Data Diva*

      Yes! I had two interviews with a company and then withdrew from the hiring process when they called for a final skills test. I couldn’t put my finger on anything specific, but I just didn’t feel good about the idea of working there. Turned out that the owner had been financially mis-managing the company for years and it ended up folding about eight months later. I still couldn’t give you a concrete reason why I withdrew- I just didn’t feel good about the company.

      1. curious*

        This is what I’m talking about! Sadly I’ve been in the case where I convinced myself I was just picky and ended up with the short end of the stick. I interviewed once for a company (see above) and just something about the manager I couldn’t pinpoint. I later learned she was viewed as a tyrant from outsiders. I always like to see “proof” before making such a decision but am starting to realize that gut instincts sometimes need to be factored in.

        1. Data Diva*

          I’ve always been of the belief that gut feelings are really our brains trying to get us to notice something that we haven’t yet. I’m sure there were things in the interviews that my subconscious was noticing, but never coalesced into conscious thought- body language of the owner, hesitancies in the way employees answered questions, something about the space. I just know that I had this overwhelming feeling after the second interview that I needed to withdraw and immediately felt at peace once I did. I did not have that same feeling when I interviewed for my current role and working here has been great.

          1. Filosofickle*

            100%. I believe gut feelings / instincts / intuition are our experience and wisdom applied really really fast. It’s not magic, it’s subconscious logic that’s way ahead of our conscious brain.

          2. Quinalla*

            Agreed, sometimes they also come from our stereotypes and such too which is why I don’t fully trust my gut instincts, but I always listen and interrogate them. I tend to get gut instincts about project timelines.(I do consulting work that is deadline driven, we are rarely setting the deadlines.) I “just know” when a project is going to push back even if the architect says nothing and yes it is definitely from experience and reading body language/verbal ticks/between the lines of emails. Trying to point it all out would be hard to do, but I tend to be a trust, but verify kind of person with my gut instincts. They are almost always right, but when they are wrong it is often my privilege or stereotypes getting in the way.

            1. Filosofickle*

              Thanks for calling out subconscious bias. I just said above I believe instinct is logic, but I forgot to caveat that! I’ve spent years learning to trust my instincts at the same time becoming aware of how implicit bias works. Definitely listen and interrogate.

      2. AndersonDarling*

        I posted below you at the same time and you proved me wrong. :)
        Do you think there was some nervousness in the people you interacted with? Did people not make eye contact? Maybe some subtle things you couldn’t articulate but your subconscious noticed and said “run away!”

        1. Data Diva*

          Oh for sure, I’m 100% sure my subconscious was noticing something- hesitations in answers, something about the way the owner answered questions, something about the physical working space. I don’t really know, because those things never really coalesced into any conscious thoughts. I just felt this internal sense of dread at taking the job. I said this above, but I’ll repeat it here that I didn’t have that feeling at all at my current job and it has been a great role and fit.

        2. College Career Counselor*

          I interviewed for a job several years ago at a Very Prestigious Institution and was struck by how cold and miserable everyone I interviewed with looked at all times. I was ultimately not offered the job, but I got the distinct impression that I would not have fit in there. I like to think I would have listened to my gut, but I am not sure!

    4. AndersonDarling*

      It’s kind of a paradox. If the job turns out to be bad, then you will remember all the little things that happened while interviewing and think they were red flags, or the nervousness about changing jobs will be interpreted as a bad gut feeling. But we never question those things if we go to a good job, but we have the same nervousness and odd ball things that happen while interviewing.
      If there is such a strong gut instinct to reject a perfectly good job, then it’s likely more than just a vague, ghostly feeling. It can likely be traced back to some exact things that were said or witnessed.
      That said, I’d like to hear from anyone who rejected a good job because of a bad dream. That would be a story!

    6. New Mom*

      I hope this counts:
      I moved to South Korea to teach English after undergrad and the company that hired me gave foreign employees a small housing stipend and helped them find housing during the first week in the country. I was really excited at the prospect of getting to choose which neighborhood to live in and did a lot of research before I arrived so I was prepared when house hunting.
      The house hunting experience was not as advertised when I was still in my home country. The day that the real estate point of contact met me, he informed me that we were going to an expat neighborhood to look at places even though it wasn’t on my list, and he said I had to pick one of the places that day as I only had one day to look (over the phone this was not what I was told).
      I argued that I did not want to live in the expat neighborhood but he took me there anyway, and was kind of an aggressive jerk about it. He showed me places that were way out of my budget and too big. It was just me and he was taking me to 3-4 bedroom apartments when I wanted a cheap studio. He then suggested that I could live with my new male coworker that I had just met the day before to cut costs (umm no).
      I got a really weird vibe from the neighborhood and the apartments and basically had to throw a fit to be taken to a different neighborhood that I had researched and wanted to live in. He was so angry that he would barely speak to me for the rest of the day when we went to the other neighborhood. I ended up agreeing to a studio in my chosen location that was only slightly above what I wanted to pay. I’m so glad I stood up for myself in a really awkward situation because I loved where I ended up living and it really made my whole experience positive.
      And the neighborhood he was pressuring me to live in? I came to find out it was known for being a huge party area (definitely fun for some nights out but not to live) and even though Korea is the safest places I’ve ever lived, that was the one neighborhood that ended up being “seedy” and sometimes even dangerous. I never found out why he was so pushy about me living there.

      1. RagingADHD*

        If he’s the designated point of contact you were referred to by the program, he most likely has some kind of deal with the landlords in that area (or singular landlord?) where he gets a larger commission or a bonus for placing people.

        Or possibly, the program, the landlords, and the realtor are all in business together and he will get backlash for “failing” to place you in one of those units.

        1. New Mom*

          I think he must have had a deal with landlords in the expat neighborhood, and maybe got more money the more expensive the unit was? Because the company employed probably a couple of hundred teachers across the country and there were about five others who lived in my neighborhood so it wasn’t that we couldn’t live there. There was definitely something going on because he was pushing so hard for the expat neighborhood.

    7. RagingADHD*

      I’ve never had a situation where I would define everything as “perfect.” But that’s because when my gut instinct goes off that way, I investigate and usually find the reason. So then I walk away for that reason, not just because of the instinct.

      I’ve had situations I agreed to where the downsides turned out to be worse than I expected, and ones where they turned out to be less of a problem than I expected.

      My current situation is as close to perfect as I’ve ever been in, to the point that I was really on guard and did lots of extra due diligence because it seemed too good to be true. It wasn’t- it was just a very good situation with some realistic but quite acceptable downsides.

      So far, there’s a bit more hassle/annoyance than I realized going in, but nothing major.

    8. AnotherLibrarian*

      Yes, and I was right both times I did it. Once it was an art commission and something about the phrasing weirded me out. After I learned more, I found out the organization supported somethings that were troubling like conversion therapy. The other was a job and I just knew I didn’t want it. Nothing was “wrong,” but it felt off. I later learned it was extremely and deeply toxic.

    9. Hillary*

      Yes. I’ve stopped doing business with vendors because something felt off and things went badly for those companies not long after, usually service degradation or financial issues. I worked for someone who had to replace a key supplier once because his CFO had a bad feeling about them. The owners of the supplier were under federal indictment a year later.

      I’ve declined to hire vendors for the same reason. During one assessment we got into the car after a meeting, my first sentence was the senior person we had just met with was sexist and my colleague thought he was racist. On paper it was a good proposal that fit our needs, but they were removed from the rfp.

      There’s a meme going around about believing people are who they show you. It’s selection bias because we only remember the ones that turned out right, but it’s good to develop and trust your instincts.

      1. Quinalla*

        This is why I try to right down whenever I have a gut instinct and come and check later (if possible) if I was right/wrong and try to figure out what evidence I had available that made that gut instinct occur.

  20. libgirl2020*

    I am filling in as a librarian in a department for a specialized skill. I applied for a supervisor position for this department, but having worked in the department I don’t think I’m interested in it anymore. It’s a pretty dysfunctional department and I really want to preserve my work/life balance I had in my permanent role. I am thinking about declining an interview. How bad is this? I just have experienced a lot of stress that as a new manager I don’t think I would be prepared to deal with or receive much support.

    1. curious*

      I’d look at the interview as an opportunity and decide from there. If anything maybe go on the interview for the experience? They may go in another direction, but with your fabulous AAM knowledge you could impress an interviewer for another job opening. As has been mentioned on AAm before an interview is a two way street – you find out about the company, they learn more about you – it doesn’t mean your hired or have to accept. In addition maybe you can bring up your concerns during the interview process and a solution can be found. You don’t need to make a decision today. Me personally, I’d take the interview, keep an open mind, weigh all the factors.

      1. Sara without an H*

        That’s probably what I’d do, too. Interview practice is always a good thing. Prepare some probing questions about the issues that concern you and see what you find out.

        1. libgirl2020*

          I just feel like I’m being trained to do the job and the trainer is leaving, so I’ll be sort of it…I don’t want to feel like I don’t have a choice. I sort of didn’t have a choice about coming to this department. They just told me, you’re leaving next week. I think I will think about this. It might help me to see how they will present the job.

          1. Hillary*

            Have they offered an interview yet? You can withdraw your application if you’re sure you don’t want the job. If they press, say something noncommittal and vague, maybe about family commitments changing.

            1. libgirl2020*

              They haven’t yet, so it might be moot! But I think with my skills they will. I just don’t want to waste their time either.

      2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

        If anything maybe go on the interview for the experience?

        I don’t know much about the library world so it’s possible things are different there, but in the companies I’ve worked in, it would have been frowned upon to apply for an internal role and go through with an interview just for ‘practice’ already intending not to take the job if it was offered. Partly because in applying internally there’s a significant amount of work that goes on already between the two (old and new) managers, HR etc. (Of course, some would say it’s not good form to apply to a different company and do the interview just for practice either, but this is much less visible/political!)

        You could have the discussion but I think that would probably be outside of the interview process itself.

    2. dear liza dear liza*

      If you’re sure you don’t want it (and with those red flags, it sounds like you’re right), decline the interview. It’s perfectly fine to say you’re happy with your current position. It’s more work for the higherups (and therefore more likely to singe some bridges) if you go through the hiring process, are offered the job, and then turn it down. I could also see them not trying too hard to recruit good candidates because they think they have a bird in the hand, and then getting unjustifiably annoyed at you when you say no.

      1. libgirl2020*

        Yeah, I just recognize that right now might not be a good time for a move for me. I was happy where I was. If I become a manager or leader I want to be engaged and support my staff. The fact that I’m frazzled now isn’t a good sign. The reason I left my last position was that after cancer I just did not want to deal with feeling frustrated. I wanted to worry about my health. If I say no, there might be some annoyance, but better than them going through background checks, etc and then I turn them down.

        1. dear liza dear liza*

          You’re in a great position to thank them for the opportunity the temporary placement provided as it helped clarify your professional goals and make you realize how much you love what you’re doing. You can keep the door open- “Who knows what the future holds but for now, I want to keep being the Best Other Librarian Type I can be.” You can win points by being gracious.

  21. Work and Social Media*

    This is part work/part personal, but since it involves work people I think it’s more appropriate for this open thread, but Alison, feel free to delete as needed.

    I have a general rule that while I’m okay being Facebook friends with colleagues, I do not let them follow me on Instagram. It’s not like I’m doing a lot of “#tbt to the time I went on a cocaine binge!” but my Instagram feels like a separate part of my personality that doesn’t overlap much with work. Luckily, very few of them use Instagram, so it hasn’t really been a problem until now.

    One of my colleagues sent me two follow requests in November which I ignored. Last week, I unlocked my Instagram account so I could generate that Best Nine picture, and forgot to relock it immediately afterwards. In that 72 hours I had it open, that colleague started following me and liked a few of my pictures. I’m going to remove her from my followers, but I’m wondering I should explain to her why. If we were all in the office, I think it would be easy to see her in the kitchen and say “oh by the way, nothing personal, I have a work-free Instagram!” But we’re all remote and calling or sending an email specifically to say this feels very…like sending a cease and desist letter, or something. Would love to hear others’ thoughts on this.

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      How close are you with this colleague? If you’re work friends, lunch buddies, email gifs level friends, I’d think it a kindness to explain. But if you just happen to work on the same team, I’d probably just remove her without comment.

    2. Katie Porter's Whiteboard*

      Do you have a chat service, like Google Chat, that you could use? If not, I think a short email is fine but I would try to keep it really casual. Normally, my work emails start with “Hi Coworker’s Name, here’s my message. best, Katie Porter’s Whiteboard.” In this case, I would just say something like “Hey Coworker, I realized that I accidentally unlocked my insta and it made it public when I normally keep it separate from work. I just updated those settings but I wanted to let you know so you don’t think it’s anything personal! Katie Porter’s Whiteboard”

    3. CovidTester*

      I would block and not say anything – sometimes people just go “oh, a familiar face” and follow indiscriminately without it being super personal.

      If they bring it up in person I would then follow up with your explanation about a work-free ‘gram.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        People ask to follow three times, indiscriminately? I don’t know insta, but on facebook that would only come up if we have friends in common, or if I searched for them.

        I think WaSM does need to explicitely let the co-worker know, but it can just be a casual chat or email, like Katie Porter’s Whiteboard’s script.

    4. TL -*

      can you send them a DM on instagram? like, “Hey I really appreciate the follow but I actually have a strict no-coworkers rule on IG! I’m going to remove you from my list and lock my profile back down, but I wanted to make sure you knew it wasn’t because of you; it’s just my preference for my IG account.”

    5. Skeeder Jones*

      I’ve been on the receiving end of a denial of a facebook friend request from a coworker. She came and just said there was a problem at a previous job where a coworker had facebook open and their boss saw some photos that were just normal young single girl kind of pics but overreacted. She explained that due to this, she just has a no coworkers on social media policy. I was glad she explained it to me instead of me just getting this denial and taking it personally. The truth was a relief.

  22. should i apply?*

    Project Managers / Team Leaders – What is your best advice to get a team to make / agree with a decision.

    I am a new project manager, and I need my team to make a proposal to the business for the next milestone. This is not a clear cut yes / no type decision, but an advanced development project with fuzzy objectives. We need to tell the business this is the solution path we are recommending. Right now the team is all over the board. I am not looking for 100% consensus, but at least enough agreement that I don’t think the team will undercut me when I am talking to stakeholders. In general the people are good to work with, and no one is obviously playing devils advocate, there are just a lot of different opinions.

    1. LKW*

      I put down all of the options – even the ones I know are ridiculous and will be rejected, lay out the risks & benefits and key considerations and then highlight the one that I would recommend. I try to treat each option as valuable and complete the details as objectively as possible and if new information is shared during the discussion that changes the balance between risk/benefit – I note it and get the team to give me a decision.

      If I really think the decision is the wrong one, I may ask for time for some more research and confirmation of assumptions so that I can either steer them towards the preferred option or see if I can reduce the risks on the selected option.

    2. James*

      I’ve handled this a few ways.

      You can try setting up a call with folks with particular knowledge of the issue with the objective of defining a path forward. Make it about a week out, and give everyone time to marshal their resources and get their ideas finalized. Then make it clear that by the end of the meeting, you’ll have one path forward.

      Sometimes, though, you need to assert your authority. “Okay, we all have different ideas, but we need one path forward, so this is what we’re going to do.” You’ll annoy a lot of people, but since you’ll likely be annoying everyone it generally goes okay. Ultimately the project is on you, so ultimately it’s your decision. As long as all options are reasonable it likely doesn’t matter, in the grand scheme of things, which you pick–any clear path forward will be better than endless debate.

      I run into this a lot, both as a PM and as a subject matter expert. As an SME, part of the job is having my ideas shot down; as a PM, part of my job is telling people smarter than me that we’re not following their advice. If someone’s really upset you can make a point to listen closer to them next time a decision needs to be made, but usually good people understand that ultimately it is the PM’s decision.

    3. Hillary*

      I have one-on-one conversations with the influencers about the path I want and why. People start piling on and going negative when they hear each others’ objections, but they tend to be more polite when they hear that I’m listening to them. I talk through their objections and make sure they have the context for why I want what I want (usually because another part of the business that they’re not familiar with needs it). If their objections are reasonable for all the businesses we start talking alternatives. Depending on relationship I may explicitly ask them to back me during the team meeting, or sometimes to lead the conversation. There are things they can propose but I can’t say because of politics.

      Ideally you’ve built that consensus before you’re in the room.

    4. ArgleBarge*

      Some of this depends on your specific situation/how YOU want this process to go (for example: are you making the final decision about what goes into the proposal, or are you guiding other team members/subject matter experts to make decisions?) – but general strategies I use:
      – Define the development process up front, especially how individual recommendations will be reviewed and incorporated (or not!)
      – Discuss lingering issues/objections one-on-one where possible
      – Reach out to influential team members in advance – assign them particular roles in facilitating, or talk to them about supporting the process – to get their buy-in up front.

    5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      enough agreement that I don’t think the team will undercut me when I am talking to stakeholders

      Forgive me if this is an overstep, but this jumped out at me from your comment. There are a lot of ways to influence, persuade and negotiate people into agreeing with your decision, or reaching consensus on ‘a’ decision, which other comments covered.

      I would be concerned though that even if you don’t have consensus/support about a decision, it seems like ultimately you have the most say (?) and the final decision over what to present to stakeholders. As such it’s a worrying situation if you can’t trust your team to go along with the “team’s” decision but instead ‘undercut’ you to stakeholders. Do you have any history indicating that they are likely to do this or is it more of a fear?

      1. should i apply?*

        I have seen it in other project presentations, where the PM is presenting, but the team members are in the room. A stakeholder will ask a team member a question and it is clear that the team member doesn’t agree with the recommendation that the PM is presenting. I will say this mostly occurs with a weak PM, that either doesn’t listen or doesn’t understand their team.

        It is also complicated because I am dual role PM/ Technical lead. So while I do have (strong) opinions I don’t want to give the impression that I am not considering the input of the other team members.

    6. ten-four*

      Former PM here, current Director/client lead! Start with establishing the key outcomes, then put them in order by priority. Once you’ve got alignment on what outcomes are most important to the business, then the conversation about how to best deliver against those priorities gets easier.

      If you’re lucky one clear path will emerge. If you net out at 2 or 3 paths, then do some quick scenario planning to map out the pros and cons of each path and put the choice to your stakeholders.

  23. On camera*

    This week my boss decided that cameras have to be on for zoom mtgs. Previously he encouraged it but didn’t require it.

    He’s usually super reasonable but for some reason this a Big Thing for him.

    We are a small team so there’s not really an argument about bandwidth and such. No one has pushed back and we all have an attitude of ‘ugh. Fine. We’ll do it’.

    How long did it take for those always on camera during mtgs to get used to it? I feel more fidgety now that before but mostly because I’m so much more conscious of my movements.

      2. saltedchocolatechip*

        Yes! And if there’s no hide self option but you can rearrange where you are in the grid, try moving your square to one end and dragging the window till you are offscreen.

    2. Anon for this*

      My boss recently switched us from conference calls to Zoom meetings and admitted it was because he doesn’t see people anymore and needs the contact, wants to see us. He also finds it easier to read cues for who wants to speak, etc. so we don’t waste a lot of time on several people talking at once, then stopping and nobody talks, leading to several rounds of no, you go ahead, etc.

      Given the size of your team, it might be something similar. Just treat it like it is an in person meeting. What would you do there? My go-to is to take notes. Helps me focus, gives me something to do with my hands.

    3. funkydonut*

      You can put a post-it note over your own face so you don’t find yourself watching yourself only and not looking at anyone else. I’m pretty used to camera on (I think I got used to it quickly?) but I might also just stare only at myself all the time like a dang narcissist.

      1. Filosofickle*

        OMG I hid my self view for the first time yesterday and my eyes would not stop scanning for my face! Apparently I stare at myself way too much on video.

    4. Malarkey01*

      I was a BIG hater of cameras before CoVid, but when the entire company shit down they asked that we use video. I grumbled for the first 2 weeks, then learned to ignore it, and now I hate to admit it but kind of love it and really benefit from it.

      I hide my pic after the initial sign on check that I’m not pointing at the ceiling or have something in my teeth. Then I just act like I would in any in person meeting which does include some fidgeting, leg crossing, note taking (also taking notes helped me to not focus on myself a lot).

    5. Quinalla*

      For internal meetings we are encouraged to and I make a point to turn on my camera on as I appreciate others doing so. I’ve gotten used to it by watching how much other people fidget, have a drink, fix their hair, scoot in their chair, etc. and know I do it a lot less so now I’m ok with it.

    6. Cameras are good!*

      I manage several teams. One team almost always has their cameras on – the other doesn’t. There’s a noted difference between the vibe those meetings have. The one with cameras on feels more friendly and it’s easier to see who is talking, or who might have something to say by a gesture so they don’t just talk over the other person who is already talking. There’s also more of a sense of camaraderie on that team. Not everyone has their cameras on all the time – but the majority do and it really helps.

      I’ve started to encourage the non-camera team to turn cameras on. I talked with several of the team 1:1 and said I’d like to start seeing more cameras on and why. Most agreed with my reasons, and generally I think it’s making a difference.

      There are some meetings where I’m just listening in and I won’t have my camera on so the team can do their thing without worrying about me being there. That’s effective also! I’ll usually turn my camera on if I need to jump in and participate.

  24. Anon-mama*

    I can’t recall–I’d have to look at my paystubs, as I definitely had 5 state/federal holidays during my leave a couple years ago. They may have cataloged it as intermittent leave, so I was on FMLA for all days surrounding the federal holiday, but as not on FMLA the paid holidays. Our contact specifies leave by days, not weeks, so I feel like they did not count as part of the total, which is how I got three solid months off. The annoying part is I did not accrue sick leave, which was much worse to lose.

  25. Video surprise*

    I had a screening interview yesterday. They had emailed me to ask if I was interested in a phone screen and verified my phone number. I said yes and we set up a time. They also sent a meeting request for Teams. I’ve never used teams but I figured it was just like an office meeting request to block off time. I guess it wasn’t. Turned out to be a team meetings call I was late to because I had to download the app AND it was also a video call which I wasn’t prepared for. I didn’t look terrible but I definitely didn’t look how I would have for an interview plus my background was a little messy.
    I apologized and they apologized for the confusion. I think the rest of the interview went well enough. My question is whether I should mention it in my follow up thank you letter. I don’t want it to seem like I’m harping on it because I do feel it was their mistake. They verified my phone number! But I do think it had an effect on my performance a little. Should I mention it? Apologize for the cluttered background and my appearance?

    1. C6 CEO*

      I wouldn’t mention it. You’re fine. Don’t worry about this one, but be better prepared next time.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I agree, no need to mention it.

        You and they apologized in the meeting, it’s a closed discussion and everyone has moved on.

    2. Slipping The Leash*

      On the Teams version my office uses, the calendar appointment thingee automatically provides a dial-in-by-phone number as well as the link to the video call – though I suppose your call’s organizer could have deleted that from the invite.
      But if you a caught off guard like this in the future, just leave your camera off and apologize to the interviewer, saying that using your darned camera has been dropping you out of calls all day.

    3. Haha Lala*

      I wouldn’t worry about it, especially if it was just a screening interview. And I wouldn’t mention it your follow up, just emphasize that you’re looking forward to the next interview.

      But if they do schedule another video interview, I’d make sure to be extra prepared, just in case that’s a lingering concern on their end. All the bells and whistles!

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I wouldn’t mention it in the thank you letter, especially as it sounds like you handled it well in the moment and brushed it off successfully! (And especially as you view it as their mistake more than yours so I think it would be difficult to come off gracefully.)

      I expect in this pandemic era they are fully used to seeing people “not quite put together” in the video meetings that they are probably having all day on Teams if it’s anything like my company, and aren’t expecting full on “nothing visible in the background” etc. By now they are probably on autopilot when setting up a meeting: 10-11am (or whatever), hit “Teams meeting”, press send.

      If an opportunity comes up organically in the next interview, you could light-heartedly allude to it (if it’s with the same people) if this fits with the tone.

    5. Job Seeker*

      I agree that there’s no need to mention it again. Recently, a job coach told me to always be prepared to be on camera, even when you think it’s just a phone screen. I didn’t believe him until a week later a recruiter *turned on Facetime* while we were on the phone. To be more clear, we were on the phone and then she said, “I’d like to do a video call so that I can tell the client I’ve seen you in person. So, I’m going to go ahead and switch to Facetime now.” Since then, I’m always prepared for video even if it should be a phone all.

  26. Anon Existential Angst*

    I’m in a job that is just not a good fit for my life right now. It’s incredibly high stress, with tight deadlines and some extremely challenging interpersonal relationships. Any other year, it’d be an incredible growth opportunity, but in 2020/2021 I just do not have the emotional capacity to continue to do it. I’ve had health issues that I haven’t dealt with in over a decade flair up again because of the stress.

    I know ultimately my health is most important and I need to quit. I have a little savings and a pension I could cash out that would float me comfortably for 6-9 months (I’m pretty early in my career and have a decent 401K) and have insurance through my partner. I have a side project I’ve been working on that I would love to try to turn into my full-time gig, but the income is miniscule right now and will probably never get to the level I’m currently making.

    But I’m scared! I feel like I’m blowing up my career and giving up a steady source of income in the midst of a global pandemic. On the other hand, this is unsustainable and I’m worried about permanent health effects. Has anyone done something similar? How did you muster the courage to make the leap and put yourself/your dreams first?

    1. Colette*

      Is there another option? I.e. could you look for another, less stressful job that would allow you time to work on your side project?

      I will say that 6-9 months in a global pandemic doesn’t sound like enough. I’ve spent that long out of work in much better times.

      1. Anon Existential Angst*

        I am applying to other jobs as well. My issue is I really need something low stress right now to recover from this, so I’m overqualified for everything I apply for. I’ve tried addressing that upfront in my cover letters, but so far no bites.

    2. HD*

      When I’ve been in a similar situation, I’ve tried to shift some of my focus over to the new side gig/job/career transition while staying in my current situation. Usually that’s made the current job easier to deal with as well because I know I have other things I’m working on and the job isn’t the whole of my professional life anymore.

      Good luck with the new project!

      1. Anon Existential Angst*

        I have been trying to do this but I really struggle to emotionally disengage from the job. I could probably make it work if I was able to do that successfully, but it feels like every time I start to emotionally disinvest, something goes wrong that would have been prevented if I was more invested. Hope that makes sense.

    3. anon pour ce poste*

      Personally, I’d err on the side of caution – but I don’t have a pension to cash out. (I have the Canadian equivalent of an 401k though.)

      I’m in the same boat. My job is stressing me out. I’ve been unhappy at work places before, but I’ve never had anxiety about work until now. I was hoping to make it to 2 years before I cut and ran (my 2 year anniversary is in April). I even had my first (suuuuuper mild) panic attack.

      The regrettable things are, I’m going to have to take a 20k (at least) pay cut when I leave this place. I’m paid really well… But I’m also really really bad at my job. I just don’t understand what my team does, and I don’t know if I’ll ever grasp it (I’m a non-technical person working with engineers). I also… Don’t care enough to grasp it. The other downside is that my company is doing REALLY strongly during the pandemic. We sell warehouse/logistics solutions, so we’re actually in a boom after all the chaos that hit supply chains.

      Best of luck!

    4. LKW*

      I got laid off, had a decent severance package and enough savings to take a year off to focus on my health. So I did. It was wonderful. I went to the gym every day. I joined a book club. I lost weight! When I was searching again a friend I’d made at a former employer said they were hiring again and a couple of months later I was rehired.

      1. Anon Existential Angst*

        To wake up every day and not immediately feel stressed about work obligations feels like a dream! But I’m worried financial insecurity stress will replace job stress, even if I know I could be comfortable for a little while…

        1. LKW*

          The biggest concern was my health coverage and the severance package gave me a year of benefits for the same cost I paid as an employee. It was like $40 a month (it was a great healthcare package too).

          I live pretty simply, I had my monthly rent and utilities but I don’t own a car and I kept my food costs low. After that, my biggest expense was the gym.

    5. Hillary*

      Sympathies. This isn’t what you asked, but when I was in a similar situation I added therapy and focused on a job hunt. I ultimately quit without a new job lined up thanks to my partner’s support, but I ended up getting an offer while I was sitting in my exit interview. I’ve always been a perfectionist – therapy helped me disengage to a more sustainable level. I’m still very committed to my job but it’s not my life anymore. Not sure if this is what you mean, but cashing out your 401k has some nasty tax implications as well as reducing your retirement income, getting as much saved as possible early in your career really helps with compound interest.

      The pandemic will end and our emotional reserves will rebound. Is this the career you want to have afterwards?

      1. Anon Existential Angst*

        Thank you for the advice and sympathies. I am already in therapy, which is probably the only reason I had a complete breakdown. I really struggle to prioritize myself over work, and it’s something I’ve been working on all of 2020. But lifelong habits are hard to unlearn, especially in times of such emotional distress.

        This job is not one I want long term, although I would potentially return to this industry if I couldn’t make my side project work as a full-time gig. I’d ideally leave it behind all together, but I have some niche experience at a high profile company so I think a return to this industry would be possible if I needed it.

        I have both a pension and a 401K from my current employer. I would cash out the pension and leave the 401K untouched. The 6-9 month calculation is assuming I’d need to save at least 30% of the pension for tax implications.

        I’m only 10 years into my career so the grocery money I’d get from the pension after I retire doesn’t seem as significant as the potential freedom/stability cashing it out now would give me. But admittedly it’s hard to take the long view when we’ve learned over the past year how quickly the entire world can change.

        2. Hillary*

          Makes sense. My partner was a huge help in untangling the mess along with my therapist – conversations with your partner might help clarify what you want. You’re thinking about it very reasonably and I don’t see any angles you haven’t considered. When I started thinking about it I didn’t consider that it wasn’t just me, it was both of us. He helped me understand that it wasn’t as big a risk because it was ours.

          If it helps, you have hugs and permission from an internet stranger to take the leap and fly.

          1. Anon Existential Angst*

            Thank you so much! It really helps to have someone else validate that I’m thinking reasonably.

    6. Super Duper Anon*

      I think it really depends on your risk tolerance. The only time I have been out of work like that was when the company for my first job was not doing well financially and they closed my division and laid a bunch of us off. I had unemployment money and my husband was working, so we were tight but OK in the financial department. I was only off for two months between leaving one job and starting the next one, but I hated it. I am a planner and very risk intolerant and the uncertainty of finding a new job drove me crazy. Since then, I have always found a new job before leaving one. However, if you feel like you would be able to relax and decompress while still job hunting, then go for it.

      1. Anon Existential Angst*

        Thanks for your reply. You are correct it’s basically all about risk tolerance. Mine is low, especially when it comes to financial things, and so is my partner’s. If my risk tolerance was higher I would have quit already.

    7. NACSACJACK*

      Hi Do not cash out your pension or 401K. You will have to pay taxes on it as though it is income to you for that year + an additional 10% penalty for cashing out early. You are sacrificing your retirement for your future. If someone had advised me sooner, I never would have a) invested in a 401K when I had a job I thought was temporary and b) when I had a permanent job, rolled it over into an IRA or left it in place until I landed someplace new and rolled it into their 401K. If I had done both those, a) I would have saved for college sooner and b) I could probably retire @ 59 1/2 or 62.

      My recommendation for you is: If you need to save more to get a cushion, reduce or stop saving to your 401K. Also, look at getting a job at Target or Amazon while you also look or work your side gig. Just having a job, any job, will keep you to a routine.

      1. Anon Existential Angst*

        Thanks for taking the time to respond.

        I have both a pension and a 401K from my current employer. I would cash out the pension and leave the 401K untouched. The 6-9 month calculation assumes I’d put away 30% of the balance for taxes/savings.

        I’m only 10 years into my career so the grocery money I’d get from the pension after I retire doesn’t seem as significant as the potential freedom/stability cashing it out now would give me. Retiring at 60 doesn’t seem worth a heart attack at 35 (not my real health issue but similar severity). But admittedly it’s hard to take the long view when we’ve learned over the past year how quickly the entire world can change.

        The “side gig” is more substantial than I’ve let on for anonymity. It could be a full time job, and the more time I put into it the more fruitful it would be, and it’s never going to get to that point with my current job.

    8. BRR*

      For me part of it would be how quickly I would be able to find a new job in my field. My last job was awful and affecting my health but there was no telling how long it would take me to find a new one.

      Is taking FMLA an option? While you obviously wouldn’t have an income, it would let you hopefully recover somewhat and you then have the option of going back if you need to save a bit more. Plus if you find a job in the meantime then you wouldn’t have to go back.

      1. Anon Existential Angst*

        Honestly I can’t imagine ever wanting to go back, and I think I’d feel too guilty taking FMLA and then spending that time trying to make my side gig work as a full time thing. I appreciate the thought though. I hope you’re free and clear of Awful Job by now :)

        1. ten-four*

          Hey, FMLA is a benefit that is available to you! You should ABSOLUTELY consider taking it as a path. I have worked with two people who took FMLA and didn’t come back; it’s not some outlandish, immoral, sneak! Take the FMLA and give yourself a bit more runway before you cash out your pension, etc.

          From the perspective of the business, the only important thing was that the person taking FMLA communicated their plans to leave in a timely way. There are rules about having NO CONTACT with work while you’re on leave, and the exception is at the end to tell them you’re leaving. I had one person who communicated, and one who ghosted us. I would give a great reference for the communicator, and a less glowing but still overall positive reference for the ghoster. As far as I know, both were in a similar spot as you: trying to get some runway to switch to a job that better suited their legitimate health needs.

          You are in a health crisis in a pandemic. It’s not your fault that the social safety net in the United States is practically nonexistent and that we’ve all been conditioned to talk ourselves out of taking the support available to us because we “would feel guilty” or “don’t need it enough.” Take every possible advantage available to you to get through it.

  27. Keymaster of Gozer*

    By request: how do my fellow tall people (hi, I’m female and over 6 foot tall) cope with comments at work? Specifically stuff like how we’re ‘intimidating’ to other staff or telling us to not wear heels or to slouch to make us look shorter?

    (Also, the weather up here? Is fine thanks ;)

    1. mbarr*

      Wait, what? People say you’re intimidating and tell you not to wear heels or to slouch?

      Go out and buy the highest heels you can. Work on improving your posture to be as tall as you can be. Eff ’em.

      Can you reverse it on them?
      Them: Can you try to slouch?
      You: Can you wear stilts instead?

    2. LKW*

      As an very short person from a very short family (at 5’3″ I am the tallest woman in my family) your coworkers are being absolutely ridiculous. You should wear high heels because they are designed for big feet! A long foot in a 5 inch heel has a more gentle slope than someone with a size 6 foot.

      Tell them that they should learn to stand up straighter and maybe get some shoe lifts if they feel their height is too limiting.

      The ONLY time you need to manage your height around work is when you’re taking group photos with short people. Then you should do a little crouch so you don’t look like a kindergarten teacher with her class.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        They tried to get me to crouch down for a team photo once. I pointed to my cane and said ‘haven’t been able to do that for nearly two decades!”. So I got to sit in a chair, which worked!

    3. Frustrated Employee*

      I’m the tallest person in my department (maybe even on the whole floor when we were actually in the office), and no one has ever made comments like that to me.

    4. kbeers0su*

      UGHHHHH. Can I tell you how often I’ve gotten these kinds of comments? It’s obnoxious. I hate having to think so much about my wardrobe. Like who else will be there? Will I be the tallest person in the room? Do I want to be the tallest person in the room? (Yes, I do sometimes wear heels to add a few inches to my natural 6′ because I want to use my height to my advantage.)

      With new teams I try to address it up front with a joke and/or comment about how I can’t control it. (“Yep- got those good Midwestern genes. Too bad I can’t dribble and run at the same time, or I would have gone WNBA!”) I have found that for some people, pointing out that my height can add an automatic intimidation factor to their perception of me actually helped them move past that. I worked with students for a long time, and this was especially true with them. Though I once had a Dean (who was maybe 5’3″) who never got past the fact that I wasn’t “approachable enough” despite my rave reviews from students and me pasting a smile to my face every time I saw him to make myself look “nice.” I think it was just his own dissatisfaction with his petite stature.

    6. Mickey Q*

      Nobody has ever teased me for being tall because I tell them I can easily kick them in the face. I put the karate trophies in my office to prove it. People are always very sweet to me.

    7. Msnotmrs*

      If someone says something like “don’t wear heels” or “please slouch”, can you look at them with a furrowed brow and say something like “what an odd request”? Just to really drive it home how inappropriate it is.

    8. 7310*

      Give them a very confused look and walk away (if possible) or reply with, “Why would you suggest that?”

    9. Roy G. Biv*

      I am a short person living among taller people. One of my favorite coworkers was quite tall, well over 6 foot, and she regularly wore heels. Her point was, what difference does a 3 inch heel make? Will you that 3 inch +/- make you see her as what? 5 foot 6? When will people learn to stop commenting upon personal appearance.

      Please, Keymaster of Gozer, wear your heels, do not slouch, and continue to kindly reach things off the top shelf for short little hobbits like myself.

    10. Monty and Millie's Mom*

      Lean into it. Loom over people with an intense look. Wear heels to be even taller. Clothing with padded shoulders, too! If you are intimidating enough, they’ll stop mentioning it! (I know you can’t tell, but I’m just kidding with this stuff! ….unless you think it’ll work…?) Anyway, seriously, I’m sorry you have to deal with this, I wish I had advice for you!

    11. CupcakeCounter*

      You work with a bunch of jackasses. Own your height!!! I’m 5’9″ and female and love it (wanted to be 6′). One of my former female coworkers is 6’3″ and hated it growing up even though I live in an area of the US with a lot of tulips and blonde people known for their height. She did the slouch thing for years and is now suffering from major back issues.
      For the intimidating comments, I would simply respond with “Why are the length of my bones an issue for Fergus?” As for slouching, “No…I have no intention of putting my self in pain for optics”.
      If these aren’t coming from HR, I might check with them but I’m afraid that’s where you are hearing this stuff from. For the record…I’ve been taller than my last 3 male bosses and the only one who had an issue with it was also a terrible boss.
      This isn’t a you problem. Return the awkward to sender.

      1. Sandman*

        CupcakeCounter, I think there’s a 50% chance you’re in my town (there’s probably only one other place that can be described that way!). Living here I’m relatively short, but raising tall daughters and appreciate these perspectives.

    12. Choggy*

      Wow, is it just one person making these comments, or multiple people? Are any of them managers? Are they men/women? I work with two women who are about 6 feet tall, and I’ve NEVER thought of making any kind of derogatory comments towards them (or any comments about their height at all). Please do not feel like you have to take them up on doing any of those things, stand your tall self up, and wear any shoes you want! :)

      1. Inefficient Cat Herder*

        I’ve even gotten the “how’s the weather up there” from men TALLER than me!

    13. August*

      Fellow 6ft lady here! It depends on the office environment, but in the past I’ve gotten comments to stop after leaning into it and joking around about it (a la standing up on my tiptoes and declaring that, as the tallest in the office, I’m the new director now, that’s how that’s decided, right? I’m a gorgeous, hulking oak tree of a person, you’re correct). But if you’re getting people straight-up telling you to slouch, that’s…super rude and sexist, and you’d also be justified in outright telling them to stop.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        I love your approach of ‘I’m tallest so I’m senior!’ joke. May borrow it :)

    14. Sled dog mama*

      Wow! at 5’6” I’m the shortest person in my family and taller than most of the women I work with.
      People need to get over themselves. There is no reason for you to minimize anything about yourself to make them more comfortable, and that applies doubly for things outside your control like height, skin color and sexuality.
      Embrace your height! And have fun with the wardrobe items you can pull off that us shorties look terrible in.

    15. Slipping The Leash*

      Maybe a simple “I’d appreciate if you didn’t make comments about my body — it’s inappropriate” would do the trick?

    16. NotQuiteAnonForThis*

      By wearing even higher heels. Think Abby Sciuto from NCIS, when I can get away with it (thick, chunky platform goth-chick from the 1990’s style is another description).

      1. NeonFireworks*

        Seriously. I know a woman who is 6’1″ and she wears amazing heels. She’s going to be tall either way!

    17. RagingADHD*

      If the comment about intimidating people could have some validity — as in the person in question is actually quite short, uses a wheelchair, is junior to you, etc, then maybe make an effort to stand further away, not hover behind them, or sit down when you speak to them. I’m tall, and what people perceive as “too close” is different. (Of course, current distancing guidelines should
      probably fix that anyway.)

      If it is, as I suspect, just about ego and gender, then just ignore the whole thing. Or tell them “that sounds like a personal problem.”

      Unless this is from your manager, and they intend it as actual feedback. That you should take up with HR.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        Nah, actually I’m the disabled one tired of people standing too close to me if anything! Do get a few ‘how can you wear heels and be disabled?’ comments at first with new people but I’ve tended to explain that walking in flat shoes really makes my old back injury hurt.

        Then they drop it. I’m good natured about jokes about my height (not about my weight, I don’t accept any comments on that. Yes I’m fat) because they’re usually ok. It’s just baffling when I am being told to change it somehow, unless there is a miniaturisation ray I don’t know about :p

    18. Campfire Raccoon*

      I’m 5’11” and my younger sister is 6’4″.

      “No.” is a complete sentence. Feel free to bellow so they can hear you down there.

    19. Cedrus Libani*

      I am a 6′ lady, and I don’t slouch for anyone. My aunt is 6’2″ and tried to slouch it away – by the time she was in her late 40s, she’d retired on disability, because she’d permanently messed up her back. My dad wasn’t going to let that happen to his also-tall children. We had to learn good posture, and it stuck.

      In my view, there’s a social contract. Yes, I am physically intimidating, and it really is an unfair advantage. This wasn’t a choice, it’s an accident of birth. I’m not going to lean into it – I make a point of sitting down for contentious discussions, and I cheerfully allow myself to be used as a human stepladder when it’s relevant. But I’m not going to apologize for it either, and if you try to make me, I’m going to call you out. Dude, this is what my body looks like, I’m not doing it on purpose.

      I’d have the same expectations for other inborn advantages. Maybe you’re drop-dead gorgeous, maybe you’re brilliant, maybe you’re the niece of the CEO. You didn’t choose that. You aren’t allowed to belittle people who don’t have the same advantage, but you’re allowed to acknowledge it as a fact.

      Admittedly, I don’t wear heels. For my shoe size, there’s the occasional orthopedic shoe and the 8″ fetish heels – and my ginormous feet would rather be barefoot. But I’d still have the right to do it.

    20. Maggie*

      Hmm, I’ve never encountered more than ‘you’re tall!’ before. Sorry you’re dealing with that

    21. Realistic*

      I’m also 6’0″ and happen to be the shortest in my family. I’ve gotten “you should be a linebacker!” “ooooh, don’t break me, sis!” and a whole lot of “can I help you, sir” comments. I’ve been told to “sit down more” and “get to the meeting early, sit down and stay seated” and “wear more flats.” It’s exhausting. Too many “sirs” in one week can be demoralizing, even though it has nothing to do with how I look. Mostly, I stand tall, walk fast, and dazzle them with my competence. I’m not from the town of blondes, but there sure was a lot of German farm folks breeding around where I lived, we procreate sturdy!! I’m so unathletic the only compliment I ever got from gym teachers was “she has good posture” :) :)

    22. Quinalla*

      Ugh, I’m 5’11” so I hear you, though honestly I don’t really get those comments much anymore at work thank goodness, but I definitely do intimidate people with just my height, but that isn’t really anything I can control. Wear the heels, don’t slouch, etc. that’s just ridiculous. I don’t like heels myself, but I would wear them all the time if I did with no worries :)

      Run into any table lately? That’s my major disadvantage to being so tall is I run into tables, etc. all the time and I bruise easily so have bruises at table height pretty much all the time :)

  28. Watry*

    My supervisor just emailed me that she wants to put me into our training program for employees identified as potential supervisor candidates! I’ve been dissociating for the past day or two (in the US, you can imagine why), and that is such good news it slammed me back into reality.

  29. Sick Of Applying*

    What to do about previous employer checks?

    I’ve been out of work because of Covid for 4 months now tomorrow. It’s the longest period of time that I’ve been unemployed and it’s really getting to me. Especially since I used to work from home before my layoff so spending almost 8 hours a day tailoring my stuff and filling out info in the ATS is really feeling like a job (a very crappy paying job). With the help of this site (Thank you Allison), I’ve DRASTICALLY improved my interview skills, and I’ve tweaked my resume and cover letters to get a decent amount of interviews (averaging 3X a week and I frequently make it to the next rounds).

    This all sounds great… except… I’ve been the # 2 choice about 5 times now and I’m getting paranoid. I’m up for a great job and will find out early next week if I got it. I found out they called my former employers (their ATS requires address, and phone number to all previous roles and the dreaded “May we contact this former employer?” The only way I found out they were calling is the HR person called me and said none have called her back yet. Knowing that the ATS didn’t ask for my list of references, I knew that she was calling all the old places.

    Here’s the thing; I have 2 former managers as trusted references so I immediately got them to call her back, and I emailed her my other references of former colleagues. My concern are the other places (which are my last 2 recent employers). The covid layoff place took PPP money that they don’t want to pay back so while they haven’t blocked my unemployment, I suspect they aren’t calling my layoff what it is (1/3 of my department was cut along with me), so I’m terrified that they are calling it something more sinister. The one before it, I just could not stand any longer, it was the worst fit of my life, and as soon as I hit a decent amount of time, I put in my notice. I was told they would provide a reference, but I don’t trust them (the management team either loves you, or hates you, and it changes by the day), so I would prefer them not to be called (but I know I can’t put that on the application).

    After all of this time and getting so close, I’m terrified this is why I have been the # 2 choice so often. Is there anything I can do? Do you think it’s a coincidence? I want to work. I need to work. If my unemployment goes any longer, I fear that I’m going to get that stink of long-term unemployment and it will be just another hurdle to jump. I’m able to hide the desperation in Teams/Zoom, but I don’t know how much I can bear.

    Do I have legit concerns, or do I need to take my chill pills? Thanks all!

    Then

    1. WellRed*

      I think you need to, in your words, chill a bit. It’s a pandemic. It’s not odd for people to be out of work. It’s not odd that it’s hard to find something. However, there is also nothing stopping you from having a friend call them for a reference and see what they say.

      1. WellRed*

        ALso, Alison has addressed this many times. It’s a pandemic. Unemployment is not a surprise to hiring managers. Four months is nothing.
        Can you take a short break from job searching? A long weekend or even a week?

      2. Sick Of Applying*

        Thank you. I don’t know anyone that I feel I could ask to do that. What’s fueling the anxiety are two things:

        1. I’m losing count of how many times I was the #2. It’s happened about 1x-2x a month now.
        2. My savings is getting really low (last job had us take drastic pay cuts to avoid layoffs, then ended up doing them anyway), plus my state has had such bad fraud with unemployment that I haven’t been paid for over a month as they “verify my identity”. I’ll eventually get it. But I don’t know when.

        1. Sandman*

          Is there any kind of temp work you could take on while you keep searching? Or volunteering? I went to temp work first because it could help ease the financial stress, but I’ve done both when between jobs and both made a huge difference in my mental state – just getting out of my head, being with other people, and contributing in some way. COVID makes all that harder, but not impossible. You WILL get through this. I hear that it feels impossible right now, but you’ll get to the other side.

        2. PollyQ*

          Have you asked any of those jobs for feedback as to why you weren’t chosen? It’s possible (though maybe a long shot) that one of them will have something useful to tell you.

  30. My Real Name is Jane*

    I just started a new job (yay!), and my employer utilizes a tool called 15Five. I had never heard of it before. Is anyone here familiar with it?

    I’m not sure how I feel about it. Once a week, we’re required to log in and fill out a survey on things like “How are you feeling about your job this week?” or “What are your priorities for next week?” There’s a question where you can share your accomplishments for the week or what challenges you’re facing. And there’s one asking if your manager could be doing anything differently.

    Employee answers are not anonymous, but the answers are only able to be viewed by each person’s individual manager and the executive director of the whole team. Participation is mandatory. How honest should I be? So far, I’m having a good experience here–but of course at some point I’m going to have a bad week or be frustrated with something my manager is doing. I’m nervous of providing candid feedback to management that isn’t anonymous.

    Thoughts?

    1. Web Crawler*

      My (uninformed) take would be to treat this like a direct conversation with your boss, minus the part where you get any response (verbal or non-verbal) to your feedback. I would tread carefully until you have more info

    2. Librarian of SHIELD*

      We used these at one of my previous jobs, and they were mostly a tool for supervisors to use in writing the employee evaluations. I’d recommend sticking with your “preparedness for work” feelings rather than your emotional feelings. So answer the question about how you feel about your work this week with “I feel confident that I’ll meet the deadline for the grape popsicle project” or “I realize now that I could use more training on the creamsicle protocol to make sure we can keep that process moving smoothly.” When you’re detailing the challenges you’re facing, try to be as dry and factual as possible. “The last batch of popsicle sticks we ordered seemed more brittle than usual, we may need to look into another sourcing option” rather than “Jane knows I hate when she orders the discount popsicle sticks but she keeps doing it anyway.”

    3. RagingADHD*

      This is the kind of thing you can suss out with your coworkers as you get to know them better — Whether this is used well, and what the conventions are about how to express challenges, and how candid people usually are.

    4. Scarlett*

      Ahhh—I have not used 15Five before, but my previous company used a similar software, called Lattice. It was used to build 1:1 agendas between managers and their direct reports, and also had options for annual performance reviews, etc. etc. I find it strange that your manager didn’t talk to you about how they will use it before asking you to complete the information. At my organization, it was a great way to share information with my manager (and get information from my direct reports) about how things are going at work. We used it to communicate back-and-forth between our weekly 1:1s. How safe/secure the information is depends on how your organization chooses to use it. At my organization, my manager only knew information from my direct reports if I chose to share it with her. And I only ever shared that information with prior consent from my direct reports. As someone who completed it to send to my manager, I found it a helpful way to share things that can sometimes be difficult to raise voice-to-voice in a 1:1. But I can see how what you write might be easily shared out in lest trustworthy organizations, FWIW.

    5. Tris Prior*

      We have to do this, but not online, we have to submit 15Five reports weekly in writing. And we don’t have the softer questions about how we feel about our jobs, it’s all, what were your big wins, what is coming up next, do you need your manager to escalate anything.

      It’s a pain and feels like yet another “justify the existence of your job” hoop to jump through. I am trying to look at it as, all year I am writing down accomplishments that I can put in my self-assessment at year’s end. I really do NOT want to repeat December 2020’s system of sorting through a year’s worth of emails to figure out what all I even worked on, much less what I did well, since this whole year was such a blur.

    6. Walk on the left side*

      My “new” job (close to 1 year now) uses 15five. I manage about a half-dozen folks, and we’re set up to fill them out every two weeks. When my people do fill them out, I find them useful. I’ve told my folks directly that if they don’t have anything to put for a given question/area, they can just put “nothing big” or “n/a” or whatever, because I’d prefer to have the rest of it than lose the whole thing because of a question where they didn’t have much to say.

      In general, both in what’s valuable from my employees and what I tend to write, I treat it much like a the list of stuff I’d bring to my one-on-one with my boss. There is an ability for comments back, and I’ve also definitely taken topics from it for conversations with my supervisees.

      This does more or less hinge on having a good boss though. If your boss is questionable, keep updates as bland and accomplishment-focused as possible. If you can’t provide even moderate, constructive feedback up the chain without it being done anonymously, you’ve got a bad management group on your hands. :(

  31. C in the Hood*

    Thinking back to the worker who didn’t call out from work & her employer showed up…Alison & others suggested calling the emergency contact. So my question: is this the purpose of an emergency contact (i.e. an alternative way of reaching the employee)? Or is the purpose that, if a certain employee has an accident or something bad happens (i.e. heart attack at work, or whatever), the employer calls the contact to let them know?
    The reason I ask is that I’m an emergency contact for an unmarried/no kids family member, and I’ve been called because they couldn’t get in touch with her after a no-show (she says she decided to take the day off & “forgot” to call in advance; whatever). Another time I’ve been called is from her doctor’s office, who was getting back to her on something & her voice mail was full.
    I don’t mind being an “emergency” contact, but I do mind being considered this family member’s receptionist. Thoughts?

    1. pyewacket*

      I do HR in a small manufacturing company and the only times I initiated calling the emergency contacts were 1) an employee did a no show for 2 days, 2) I was traveling in an ambulance with employee and contact needed to meet me at the ER, and 3) another employee was going to the ER and emergency contact was to meet me at ER. In the case of #1 I knew that several employees were trying to contact the no show employee on the first day but after his shift started on the second day I called the emergency contact. I also had follow up interactions with all 3 emergency contacts relating to the issues.
      The doctor’s office sounds like she signed an additional HIPPA form saying they could contact you in case she was unavailable but that is only from a personal experience.

    2. Veronica*

      These seem like legit reasons to call an emergency contact. It sounds like you need to tell your family member that thet needs to be able to have a working voicemail or you won’t be able to be their emergency contact.

    3. WellRed*

      I wondered this as well. My main emergency contact is my mom but she lives fur hours away and wouldn’t be able to check on me. She’s listed in case I wind up in a hospital or something.

      1. pyewacket*

        Your Mom though could confirm your you are ok or there is something wrong and ask the company to initiate a welfare check with the police. The idea is that the emergency contact is the closest person to you and they are the starting point.

    4. fhqwhgads*

      I’m not touching the doctor’s office angle, but from a work standpoint, I’d say it’s both. They contact you if there’s been an emergency at work involving the person OR if they are concerned the person may be having an emergency outside of work (such as not showing up without saying so and being unreachable when both are very out of character). Theoretically, the latter situation would be something like….they’re in the hospital for emergency surgery and didn’t have a chance to tell work, but you know this happened and can tell them that so they stop panicking. Or alternately, you don’t know that but also don’t know of a reason such as that, so if the person whose contact you are might be dying on their living room floor, you take some action on the person’s behalf.

    5. Wicked Witch of the West*

      I’m a friend’s emergency contact, and I’m on the other side of the country. I have all the medical paperwork and could FAX it at the drop of a hat. The only time I got a call was from the doctor’s office, they got a weird message on her cell and couldn’t leave a message. I said I would call her at work and have her call them. She had forgotten to pay her cell bill.

        1. fhqwhgads*

          Like a fax machine? Thing where you basically scan a document and it sends it over a phone line and spits it out on a similar machine at the destination number.

    6. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      As I understand it the emergency contact is for just that.. an emergency (or possible emergency). So the employee being in a serious accident at work, yes, or no-call-no-showed and it’s out of character for them, etc.

      The family member who forgot to call in advance – arguable. I think if it’s out of character for her to do that, you’d probably rather get a call and it turns out to be nothing, than they don’t call and god forbid something has happened to her and it isn’t discovered until a couple of days later…

      The doctor’s office calling the emergency contact because voicemail was full — not a valid use of an emergency contact, unless the nature of the call was (e.g.) that there was something so alarming in a test result that she needs to immediately go to the ER for example.

  32. Colleague’s Dog’s Viking Funeral*

    Did anyone watch “The Neighborhood” this week? The episode made my Ask a Manager senses tingle, so I think this is the right place to ask.
    Main characters are two married couples. Married couple 1: Gemma and Dave.
    Gemma is school principal. Her sister has started a bespoke clothing line. Gemma says that she will have a home party and invite her coworkers.
    Clothing line turns out to be kinky sex outfits.
    Gemma is upset, tells sister that she is embarrassing her in front of her employees.
    In the end, it’s ok because all the women buy things.
    Gemma: “who knew all my staff were freaks”
    Did the people who wrote EVER work any where other than a writers’ room?

    1. JohannaCabal*

      Honestly, anything job-related on TV is off. On House doctors were always shown at the hospital doing labwork and MRIs (lab and imaging technicians I know hate how they never get any recognition on TV shows). Most of the courtroom attorneys on TV would be disbarred too. I’m sure CSI techs wish they had the state-of-the-art equipment seen on TV.

      My favorite is when families are shown enjoying a full leisurely breakfast on a weekday, especially families with teenagers. First period started at 7:20 AM in my neck of the woods!

      1. James*

        “I’m sure CSI techs wish they had the state-of-the-art equipment seen on TV.”

        Oh you have NO idea!!!! :D

        I remember one episode where they used calcium carbonate to absorb material for mass spectrometer analysis, to save money due to budget cuts. Okay, yeah, that substrate would save money–but compared to the cost of operating a mass spectrometer (often around or over a million dollars for the machine and upkeep, along with dedicated and highly-trained staff to run it, continuous calibration and QC samples, annual checks by various entities, etc etc etc, and that’d on the cheap end) it’s laughable. Add in the likelihood of sample errors from using more or less random material as substrate (as opposed to uniform material) and the idea would get laughed out of any serious discussion of sample methods.

        Turn around times are also wild. I have a suite of samples that went into a lab yesterday for routine chemical analysis (environmental samples, but it’s the same labs). I’m hoping to get results by next Friday, and that’s because we’re paying extra for a rush job. On CSI, they get samples the same day. Guess the lab has no backlog, no issues with the equipment (an unexpectedly high concentration of certain chemicals can fry machines, for example), no QC standards to run, no data validation procedures to comply with….and therefore all of it would get thrown out of court. The judge wouldn’t even wait for the defense to object, he’d just toss it in the garbage.

        Also, I am no longer allowed to comment on the sample glove brands. Warehouse 13 used the good ones (a deep purple color, nice and thick, don’t tend to rip). I hate the brand that sells the baby-blue ones; they’re too thin, constantly come apart when you put them on.

        1. TL -*

          I want their magic machine that does complete DNA testing and matching against database or other samples in the amount of time it takes to run a full PCR cycle…

      2. Square Root of Minus One*

        Yeah. Some real-life CSI techs also wish some clients would stop watching The Experts and send samples bigger than a thumbnail.
        Just sayin’.

      3. lemon*

        The earlier episodes of House addressed the weirdness of the team doing its own labwork and tests by explaining that House was such a mistrustful misanthrope that he didn’t trust the lab and the techs not to screw up. I know, still highly unrealistic, but at least the writers attempted some kind of explanation.

      4. TL -*

        That season where Grey’s Anatomy had their doctors doing research made me laugh so hard. I think my favorite part was where Alex picked up a little thyroid or thymus or some T-named organ they’d grown in the lab, with his BARE HANDS, and took it out of the hood to show someone, before putting it back into the hood so it could later be transplanted into a patient.

        And the why they used serological pipettes as basically flower arrangements in beakers. That was special.

      5. Old and Don’t Care*

        I think that most workplace stuff on tv can be either wildly off base and work for story purposes or wildly off base and not work for story purposes. To me, if it’s something I’m noticing and getting worked up about, the show is probably not very good.

    2. Sabrina Spellman*

      I can’t wait to watch this episode now! I feel like this comment came more from Gemma growing up in the midwest (Michigan, I believe) so she’s still more small town at heart.

    3. I'm that guy*

      If Gemma is a principal her co-workers would be her subordinates which would make this an abuse of power. They were probably buying the clothing to keep from being punished not because they were freaks.

      1. Colleague’s Dog’s Viking Funeral*

        Exactly!
        all I could think was , you are the boss, what are they going to say?
        and then when she made a snarky comment…
        I was just so annoyed for just that reason!
        “You don’t have to buy anything”
        is in the top three greatest lies ever told.

    4. Msnotmrs*

      As a librarian, don’t get me started on the way certain professions get treated in movies/TV…

      1. Colleague’s Dog’s Viking Funeral*

        seriously, librarians get the worst of it.
        Hell, “It’s a Wonderful Life,” George not dying made his brother able to save a ship full of sailors and keep Mary from becoming a librarian.
        And that’s on the virgin mary side of the coin,
        not even looking at the flip side….

        1. Msnotmrs*

          THANK YOU. I can’t hardly name a depiction in a mainstream show/movie that doesn’t depict us as shrewish, shushing book police.

          1. tangerineRose*

            Aurora Teagarden is portrayed as a librarian who isn’t like that, but she works with someone who fits the stereotype.

    5. lapgiraffe*

      There’s a show on Netflix, Easy, and one storyline has brothers who brewed beer together in their garage going legit and starting a craft brewery. One brother continues to brew and the other becomes the sales guy. They show the sales guy with a buyer at a bar/restaurant, and the buyer is totally nice, gives him direct feedback to the effect of “love this new beer but don’t have a space for it, maybe in a few months though, and people still love your flagship so please send me some more kegs of that, great to see you.” Sales guy brother goes back to home or office and complains about what a awful, terrible day he had and I have never laughed outloud alone so hard.

      I sell wine and spirits but it’s the same gig, different product, and yeah it sucks if I can’t sell my new product to someone, but if the buyer treats me with that level of respect and direct communication and gives me a reorder that is sooooooo far from a terrible horrible no good very bad day. I think the storyline was heading in a “maybe this isn’t going to work out” direction but it was because the brothers didn’t work well together, not because sales brother clearly doesn’t have it to last two weeks on the road, much less long enough to build the brand and then hire a poor sap to take this terrible job from him so he can go back to the office and only deal with the good customers moving forward.

      1. Colleague’s Dog’s Viking Funeral*

        Truly! Like the writers don’t know what a bad day at work is. They need to come here!

      2. Wino Who Says Ni*

        I work similarly in wine retail. Depictions of sommeliers and the like are either hilarious (thank you, “Parks and Rec”) or give the impression that we sit around and drink wine all day between glamorous visits to wine country. It’s been quite a ride this year, and hope you’re able to get a little respite after this OND.

  33. Lost in the Library*

    This might seem like a bit of a strange question, but how does one accept that you’re just never going to have a “good” and/or “successful career? I’m in my early 30s and I’ve been making TERRIBLE career decisions since I was an undergrad in university and I’m truly at a loss for the next steps to take. I really need to re-assess what I’m doing career-wise, because I am deeply unhappy and behind so many of my peers career-wise.

    Despite all warnings against it, I decided to get an MLIS and become a librarian… and well, I guess it’s turned out about as well as one would expect. There’s just nothing else that I can “imagine” doing for work! I’m not really that smart and/or good at skills that are valued. I’m not very mechanical, I don’t know how to do programming, I’m not a natural writer, I don’t have the constitution to work in health care. I just don’t know what else to do, or what I can do to get myself out of this mess!!!

    I moved away for a 1-year librarian position last year. It was generally a good experience. The job has ended. I’m back at my old job for now. I was able to take a leave of absence and I’ve been placed in a temporary position by HR until they can find me a “permanent” position, which they are required to do due to the terms of the leave. Last year, my hours were cut in half which is what motivated me to get that other job in the first place. As a result, I’m working part-time now. It’s okay, my benefits are great. I do feel a bit upset knowing that I could get more money on EI than working part-time w/ the school board. I’ve had to move back home, which makes financial sense. I’m applying to jobs in different cities and it doesn’t make sense to get a place of my own when I might have to break a lease.

    I just don’t think staying in librarianship makes sense anymore. Jobs were scarce prior to covid, but it’s even worse now. I haven’t seen a job I could apply to (I’m not applying for jobs in competitive provinces like Ontario or BC) in a month and a half!!!!!!!! I have to admit that I don’t think this career avenue really isn’t going to work out. What do I do now? I’m so embarrassed that I chose this. How can I get another career path? What should I be doing? I’m so upset with myself for being so stupid.

    1. PolarVortex*

      I’m about the same age, but hopefully I can provide some help. You’re frustrated and lost, so you’re devaluing your skills, but I bet you’re good at a lot to get an MLIS, it’s not an easy path to take. Take a moment to think about what you’re good at: do you make friends easily? Put people at ease easily? Are you the organizer of your family/friend group and always know what is going on anywhere? Are you the resource for your team, you recall all historical information about all the ways the library used to do things? Think about what you’re naturally good at in life, think about what you enjoy about work/volunteering. (I myself really, really enjoy tearing down a crappy process and fixing it so it’s better for everyone.)

      All those things can be parlayed into skills to add to a resume for any job. Sure if they require an accounting degree, that might stop you, but most jobs are looking for you to be committed to working and decent at it. Skills from one job can be applied to another unrelated job.

      A lot of corporations will take people with zero experience in a field – I work for a technology company, and all my degrees are not in technology. Look for companies that the feel of the company suits you – do you prefer a more formal setting like a bank? An informal like a tech company?

      Lastly: I have no idea what my career is going to look like. I couldn’t tell you where I’ll be 5 years from now. What I want in life is a job I feel fulfilled in, that challenges me, and a company that allows a work-life balance and that supports who I am as a trans person. I’ve re-evaluated a lot of my thoughts when I was younger – I could never work for a corporation because I’d have to dress formal and be soulless (I wear jeans and tshirts), I need a capital C Career (I have several path options open for me in the next 5 years, and I’m sure several more will show up as time goes onwards), I have zero skills to sell (No, I am a kick butt fixer, the best person to manage remote people, and can make your data sing).

      Be proud of yourself and your skill sets, think about what you want in life and work, and take what Allison has on here to rework your resume and throw yourself into your future.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      First of all, you are not stupid for not being able to accurately predict the future. You made a decision based on what you knew about yourself at the time, and what you envisioned would work well for you down the road. That’s how most people plan their careers, and I imagine there are FAR more people out there who feel like they’re in exactly this same boat than you think.

      Second, you say you are “not good at skills that are valued,” and I am curious what you think those skills are? Outside of those skills, what are things you think you ARE good at? There are billions of different kinds of jobs. There is something for everyone. What things do you like and are good at?

      Third, it’s perfectly fine for your job to not be a “career.” You can find fulfillment outside of work, and simply view your job as a means to an end. This is perfectly reasonable! Maybe looking at it that will will relieve some of the pressure you’re putting on yourself?

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Following up on both “not good at skills that are valued” and “don’t know how to program, I’ll give you an example from my life.

        Years ago I took, and dropped, a computer programming class in college. I had done some more basic programming in high school but this was just awful and I hated it because I could not ‘get’ it. Dropping the course changed my major options so it was kind of a big deal to me at the time, but that’s just how it had to be. However, a few years ago I seriously considered retraining into a different career (data science) that basically requires programming abilities. So, I took an online certificate program in one of the main languages to try it out and found that I really grasped it this time and could actually see it being a real option. I don’t know if it was because I had a different attitude, accumulated knowledge, or maybe it was just the way it was presented/taught this time. I didn’t end up switching career tracks, but I can and have used that new skill in my current job.

        My point is, don’t let your past experiences limit what you might do now. Maybe you still won’t like programming or those other valued skills, but maybe you will.

    3. Aurora Leigh*

      First don’t kick yourself while you’re down! So many people are in the same boat. I never went for the MLIS, but I’ve worked in and around libraries since high school and it really is a broken system in so many ways that people on the outside of it really can’t grasp.

      If you’ve had public facing roles, you’re probably pretty good at customer service skills, so look for those type jobs. They’re not prestigious, but the pay is usually better than minimum wage. Look for openings at companies that market to schools and libraries — they’ll really appreciate your field experience (this is what I’m doing now).

    4. Colette*

      First of all, I’d like to say that there are a lot of ways to have a successful career. And it sounds like you made a reasonable decision – you got a 1-year position, and you liked it. That’s success.

      That doesn’t mean you have to stay on a career path that doesn’t have tons of jobs available; but you’re stupid because your first choice didn’t work out.

      What do you do at the school board? What kinds of skills does it need, and what other jobs use those skills?

      Can you use your research skills to look into jobs you don’t know exist? Materials management, for example?

    5. LKW*

      Hold up – research is always needed. So your MLIS still has value. Companies like Garner or Reuters are always looking for people with research/writing skills. Companies need people who can synthesize ideas in areas of market research & competitor intelligence. Large consulting firms have huge research needs across industries and also have significant libraries of contracts, client work, white papers and other stuff that need to be classified, evaluated for relevancy etc.

      But what interests you? If you had to start over, knowing what you know now – what would you do differently? And what, aside from money, is preventing you from doing that now? People have gone back to medical school at 50 – so being 30 is not a terminal career point. You don’t have to live the rest of your life looking for a library.

    6. Kimmy Schmidt*

      What type of librarianship did you do, or want to do? What would have been your ideal specialty? What was is about librarianship that attracted you? What kinds of skills do you have, even if you’re not sure they’re valuable? Are you wiling to move?

    7. Asenath*

      First of all, take a deep breath, and stop being upset with yourself for being stupid! A great many people spend time in careers or jobs that aren’t what they had hope for or dreamed of, even in times when the entire economy HASN’T been disrupted by COVID! Mistakes might come into it, unexpected changes in the economy are important – but stupidity is often not to blame. Very intelligent people make mistakes.

      I can’t tell you what to do. I can tell you a little of what I did when I realized that a job I thought would be my lifetime career was, well, not. Maybe that will be helpful. First, don’t do what I did and stick with something you are obviously completely unsuited for much, much too long – but if you do, chalk it up to experience, pick yourself up, and start again. It’s just a mistake, not stupidity. I won’t go into too many possibly identifying details, but I (a) tried to keep working at ANYTHING to keep a roof over my head – a part-time job with benefits sounds very useful as something to keep you going for a while – and (b) tried to figure out where to go from there. Actually, one of the options I considered was librarianship, but I decided against it, partly for financial reasons – I’d have had to move away to take the program and the cost would be too high. I did train for another field, related to what I had been in, but in the end one of my temporary part-time jobs turned into a permanent one, and I stuck with that. Just as well, since I never got so much as an interview for a job in my “new” field. I stopped thinking in terms of “career” and started thinking in terms of “job”, or more specifically, “Can I do it with reasonable ease and enjoyment, and will they pay me enough?” I got over the feelings of envy of my former co-workers who were good at job 1, while I was doing a lower status and less well paid job because I eventually realized how horrible it was for me an everyone around me when I was in a job I wasn’t good at and hated. I found out that I liked working a steady and lower stress type of job that I could leave behind at the end of the day. So – I can’t tell if you should continue to look for jobs in librarianship. If you like doing that, maybe a month and a half in bad times is not long to wait. But you can also look into adding a second part time job to keep your income up, at least to something above EI, try out for even part time jobs in different areas to give you an idea of what options you have – and treat your job hunt as a job; do it for a little each workday and then do something else. That, and avoiding thinking in terms of needing to have a lifelong career, helped me keep things in perspective.

      Good luck.

    8. EMarie*

      I just wanted to chime in and say that I found your comment well-written, for what it’s worth. I’m sorry you’re feeling this way. I go through phases like this too, and have made some career choices that I don’t necessarily regret, but looking back, don’t think they were the best choices. What helps me is to remember: 1) my worth as a person and my happiness are NOT dependent on career success, that is a capitalist value being shoved down my throat by our culture; and 2) careers are long and there is plenty of time to course-correct to find a better fit.

    9. AnotherLibrarian*

      First off, you aren’t stupid and I don’t think you made terrible decisions. You made the best decision you could with the information you had presented to you. Job hunting is probably the most demoralizing experience you can have, so try not to beat yourself up too much. I know it sucks.

      Let me tell you about what I did when I was in a similar spot.

      Two years ago, when I was about 9 months into an unsuccessful job hunt (while employed in my field and pretty miserable) I sat down and made a list of everything I was good at. I then asked several friends I trusted to tell me what they thought I was good at. Some of their answers shocked me, but it was super helpful. Then I tried to decide what jobs would be good for me based on that list. Some of them were library adjacent, some of them were 100% not library related. A few things I considered- Instructional Design, Highschool History Teaching, and Customer Service/Public Service Roles in State Government.

      If you don’t love working with the public, consider other options. A dear friend who left library work managed to turn her super organized brain into a high level administrative assistant role and now works for the head of a major state organization making about four times what she made as a cataloger and loves it.

      Another good list to make is this- What do you want? For me, I knew I wanted a decent amount of PTO and I didn’t want a job I would “take home” with me. I also needed to make a certain salary to feel comfortable and afford to live.

      While I did all this, I kept job hunting and, two years later, am now happily working in my field (special collections) in my home state, but I also had a few interviews that were nothing to do with library work. In the end, I stayed in the field. But I know now what I would do if/when I decide to leave for something else. You can do this and your lack of success at finding a job isn’t proof you are a failure in any way.

    10. RagingADHD*

      I banked everything in my early career on a risky creative pursuit where I didn’t get quick success, and couldn’t sustain the lifestyle to hold out for slow success.

      And yeah, early 30s is about when you start doing this kind of calculus.

      The course I took was first, just to find any honest work that would support a reasonably safe & stable life, and then try stuff I was interested in.

      What you’re looking for long-term isn’t natural gifts. It’s work that you like well enough to spend time getting good at. Then you create an upward cycle, where the work is intrinsically rewarding because you see your improvement, and externally rewarding because your increased skill draws more value.

      For example, there’s no such thing as a “natural writer.” And most people who consider themselves as such write cringey, derivative, pointless dreck. There are writers who want to write well, so they practice.

      Contrary to the popular narrative, you don’t need talent or passion to have a satisfying and rewarding work life. You need curiosity, and a sense of accomplishment from doing something that’s worth doing well. An appreciation for craftsmanship, if you will.

      Caveat: this approach demands that you separate your work from your identity. There’s more support for that now than when I was 30, but it still goes against the mainstream. I think it’s much healthier.

    11. Miss Direction*

      I also did an MLIS as I was advised that I would never be able to move up from a paraprofessional position in libraries without the degree. Turns out I now can’t get ANY job in a library, as a librarian or otherwise. But what I did manage to get with my MLIS was a job in records management. If you like the organizing/classifying/cataloging part of librarianship, you might want to look at RM jobs. They run the gamut of places that are still heavily paper based to those that are mostly electronic records–most places are moving from A to B and if you have any interest or skills in change management this might be an area for you. I had NO experience in RM, didn’t take any classes in it at all during my MLIS but got my first job out of grad school as a records analyst. I’m in one of those competitive provinces and have found RM work in government settings to be pretty pandemic-proof, unlike library work. Hang in there.

    12. Cedrus Libani*

      I suspect that it’s only a small minority that take the straight-and-narrow path. Go to school, get MLIS, get job as librarian. Go to school, learn to program, get job as programmer. It does happen, but most people end up in their careers more or less by luck.

      I graduated into the teeth of the 2008 recession, and I had to take a “survival job”. I wept as I filled out the paperwork to accept that job. The future I’d dreamed of was gone. But as it turned out, while I was hired to do grunt-work, I was also the only person in the building with a relevant skill from College Field…and that turned into my career. You don’t have to get everything figured out on the first step, just try to get yourself into a place where you will have next steps.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      Every time you catch yourself saying something negative like stupid, embarrassed, etc., make you correct yourself. You did not get this far because you are stupid, etc. Remind yourself of that.

      Next, our career path is not genetically encoded in us at birth so we immediately know which route to take.
      But it SHOULD be, what’s up with that.

      Just my opinion, but life doesn’t start to settle down until we are in our 40s. Again, this too seems wildly unfair.

      In looking over social security here in the US, it would be strategic for me to work until I am 70. This means you could have 40 more years to sort this out and have a few wins and perhaps make a few more mistakes. It’s not over yet. And it will not always appear like it does now. Keep going this will change.

      The best advice I read was to work at a job until a better job or better idea comes along. You can also leverage what you have- perhaps there are jobs in other schools that will appeal to you because the job is closer, different, better pay or something else. So your next stepping stone might appear to be more of the same, but somehow it turns and goes in a new direction for you.

      A friend started out in teaching, ended up working in a school library, after decades of teaching. Where we start usually is not where we land. But we have to start somewhere. For some reason I too thought I should be settled by my 30s. I wasn’t. I really think that is a myth and we can work on abolishing that myth by calling the myth out into the light of day.

  34. Discouraged Grad*

    Legal Job-Hunting Advice

    Background: I am a May 2020 JD graduate who recently found out that I passed the bar exam. I was EIC of my journal, team captain of a moot team, but my GPA was 3.16 (my all A spring doesn’t count towards my overall GPA because of the pandemic policies). Although I originally anticipated moving to help out as my dad was dying, he passed away before I graduated but after I had already applied for the bar exam in the jurisdiction where my parents live/d. At this point, I like where I live (DMV area) and am working on applying for reciprocity here.

    Job Search: I am currently working as a part-time law clerk, but am still looking for full-time positions. Despite really trying to implement Alison’s advice, I’ve only received rejections when I get a response at all. I’m looking at both government and non-government positions. Can anyone give me any advice, recruiter information, legal job search boards, or share something that they feel would be helpful right now? I know we’re in a pandemic right now, but I’m getting very discouraged that nothing has come up yet.

    1. CTT*

      Are you a member of your local bar organization? Mine will send around job openings semi-regularly; I’m in a smaller market, so I would imagine the DMV associations might be more active on that front. If you know anyone who is a member, it could be worth asking how often entry-level job postings come through that channel before putting down money to join.

      Also, are you female? I’m a member of my state’s Girl Attorney facebook group, and while I 1) hate the name and 2) find the membership borderline-hilariously ignorant of what transactional lawyers do (since you’re clerking and did moot court, that doesn’t sound like it would be an issue for you like it is for me), I do regularly see people posting job openings on there.

      1. Discouraged Grad*

        I’m part of the 2/3 of the bar associations, but I’ll look and see if there are any more for my county or the counties I’m interested in working in. You hit the nail on the head concerning paying for a fee that may not result in anything, which is why I haven’t joined a few of the local/niche bar associations yet. I’ll send out emails today to ask if this is something worth doing.

        Also, I am female. I haven’t checked Facebook yet, but will also do that today. I am a new member of the DCWBA, which my boss, also a woman, signed me up for since she’s knows I’m still looking for full-time work.

        Thank you for the advice! It’s been hard to balance the knowledge that there is an ongoing pandemic with major economic ratifications while also being frustrated that it’s impacting my post-grad job search.

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Join your local bar association(s) and any committees covering the areas of law that particularly interest you, including the Young Lawyers Division or whatever it’s called for people new to the profession. Your membership in the bar association will likely include access to a job board. Attending committee meetings will get your face in front of other lawyers.

      Look into whether your local court system has a program for new lawyers to intern with judges. It may be unpaid, but it will give you experience, networking connections, and a good entry on your resume. A colleague of mine in a Major East Coast City went this route in the early 2010’s and parlayed it into a successful criminal law practice.

      1. Discouraged Grad*

        I’ve joined 2/3 of the nearby state bar associations and will reach out to the third one today. I’m also part of the Young Lawyers Division for the jurisdiction that I’ll be sworn into next week, but didn’t think I could join the local ones until I was barred here. I’ll email them today to see what their procedure is for someone like me.

        Also, I haven’t heard of this type of program, but I’ll look into it. I have a few friends that are clerking at the local courts who may know so I’ll reach out to them. Thank you for the advice!

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      Law is relationship driven. It is hard when you are straight out of law school, but doable. Instead of blasting out resumes, join the section of the local bar association that you are interested in (for example, if it is bankruptcy, join the bankruptcy section of your state or city (if very large city) bar. Talk to people (harder during Covid) but there may be discussion forums or other online activities. Write some articles for the local bar association– usually the state, local, and ABA bar newsletters are always looking for articles (I know, I am a co-editor of a large ABA committee newsletter and we’re always asking for stuff). Keep in mind that this isn’t full blown law review stuff — it can just be a summary of a recent interesting case of other development. Get your name out there.

      1. Discouraged Grad*

        I agree 100% that law is relationship driven. Pre-pandemic I was regularly getting coffee with attorneys, prior supervisors, professors, etc. To be honest, one of the main draws I had to the legal profession was how relationship driven it is. I like getting to know new people and talking about a mutual interest. Funny enough, my first legal internship was because I met an attorney at a table-top board game event. At the time, his agency did not have any openings for summer legal interns, but that changed and I was first up on the list because we got along well. It’s been hard to keep this up during the pandemic though.

        I’ll see if there are any forums or other online activities that I could participate in. Although I’m interested in tax law and did well in all of the tax classes I attended, I know that an LLM is the next step if I want to pursue that as a career. Since I’m open to other areas of the law, I was hoping to work and to a part-time LLM program. However, I know that that may not work out based on my current application responses. I’m already working on a few tax law articles with a friend/fellow graduate who actually put my resume forward for my current clerkship. She’s being groomed to be her firm’s main tax attorney and want her to start publishing tax-related articles.

        I hear what you’re saying concerning law-review type articles. I’m currently working with two editorial boards for law journal articles which will be published in a few months. Providing a general overview seems like it wouldn’t be wanted, but I’ll start writing shorter articles since I have the time to do so right now (the Cares Act and tax law have an interesting intersection which could be a good starting point).

        Thank you for your advice on getting my name out there. I think the pandemic has thrown my normal methods out the window and I’m trying to adjust accordingly. I appreciate your tips and will start working on writing articles for newsletters and attending forums ASAP.

    4. Joielle*

      Congrats on passing the bar! I knew I wanted to work in the public sector so my legal job search consisted entirely of OBSESSIVELY checking the job boards for my state, city, and county, and applying for pretty much any entry level lawyer job that popped up within a semi-reasonable commuting distance. After a few months and a LOT of applications, I ended up getting a job as a judicial law clerk, which was a great career move (and a pretty fun job, I worked for a great judge). A ton of lawyers start out as judicial clerks so I think it’s pretty widely understood what types of skills you can expect when someone has that on their resume. I stayed for about 18 months before moving on to a state agency.

      Personally, I didn’t find bar association membership to be that helpful – of course, networking is good no matter what job you’re looking for, but government jobs are a little less tied to who you know. I did have a few coffee meetings with people through my school’s alumni network, which didn’t directly get me a job but helped me figure out what I wanted to do after the clerkship. That was a great help.

      It sounds like you have a really solid resume with the moot court and EIC, so it’s just going to be a matter of persistence. Good luck!

      1. Discouraged Grad*

        Thank you so much for sharing your experience and your advice! Honestly, I would love to clerk for a judge, but an ave been rejected from every clerkship I’ve applied to. My career services essentially said to not expect much with those applications since my GPA is so low. Did you him find your GPA to be a barrier for clerking?

    5. Policy Wonk*

      Not sure if the timing of your degree makes you eligible, but check with your university about the Presidential Management Fellows program. Federal hiring managers like to bring entry level people in from programs like this that have already vetted candidates, as opposed to the deluge of applications that USA Jobs would produce.

      1. Discouraged Grad*

        Fortunately, I’m still able to apply for the PMF program. I didn’t make it this cycle, but I will try again next year. Hopefully I’ll find full time job before that cycle starts, but it’s definitely something that I’m keeping in mind. I’m also applying for Policy Analyst positions on USAJobs just to get my foot in the door.

    6. Once A Lawyer*

      When I graduated law school, I was highly ranked but my school only officially recognized or ranked the top graduate. My dean and the career office told me to put my “unofficial class rank” and label it as such.

      How much do the A’s this semester improve your GPA? If they do, can you put that GPA on your resume with some appropriate labeling? “Cumulative GPA 3.5 (unofficial due to School’s policy regarding grades in the spring of 2020).” You’re going to provide a transcript on request, so you’re not hiding the official GPA.

      I don’t have a lot of advice about the job search. You sound like someone who made good community connections, though, and had a high profile on campus. Were any of your professors adjuncts who have a legal practice? If so, definitely reach out to them. Also any practicing lawyers who judged your moot court.

      1. Discouraged Grad*

        I hadn’t thought of putting my unofficial GPA on my resume. Ironically, I earned all A grades last spring and although it’s not a major boost, it still would have placed me back to where I was before last fall.

        I’ve reached out to most of my professors. My school has a really strong part-time program, so most of my profs were also working in government or major to big law firms. I’ve reached out to the ones who works in areas that I like and they said that they’re keeping their eyes open. That said, there are a few other profs I haven’t updated yet about the bar exam and publication news, so I’ll make it a point to reach out to them over the weekend. Thanks for the idea/advice!

    7. Another govt attorney*

      Government hiring is *not* like public sector hiring and navigating it from the outside can be difficult both as a new grad and as a mid-career attorney.

      I’ve now been on both sides of a number of state government interview panels, here’s a few things I learned sitting on the other side of the table:

      1) A lot of new grads and early career attorneys trying to get into government positions send out the same form resume and cover letter for each position. When reviewing applications, it’s very easy to tell. If someone is applying for a in-house counsel type role but has an application that is litigation focused (or vice versa), and the applicant’s materials don’t explain why they’re applying or make the connection between their experience and skills with the job as explained in duty statement, they probably won’t make it to the interview stage.

      2) Be specific and detailed when describing your experience. Don’t just say “drafted memoranda” if you researched and drafted memoranda on 1) the application of the takings clause in ABC context and on 2) a specific provision of a state’s sunshine law. If an application just says drafted memoranda, I can’t tell if the applicant has done it once or 15 times, and have to score accordingly. This can feel like you’re listing everything you ever did, when it comes to government applications (at least in my state) that’s not a bad thing.

      3) If you don’t have government internship experience but took admin law or other courses relevant to the agency that you’re applying to, include this in the application materials, it might help with a scorer that’s looking for experience with a specific type of law.

      4) Grades are not the be all end all at my agency. Provided you have a good writing sample, demonstrated interest in a subject matter can count a heck of a lot more. It’s important to show your interest both on your resume/application and when you get to the interview stage. During an interview it’s easy to tell the difference between someone who was cramming on a subject the night before and someone who took a course or attended some free CLEs and can talk knowledgeably about a specific issue.

      5) Writing samples. Your writing sample should be easy to read, demonstrate your overall analytical skills, consistent use of IRAC, and proper grammar and citation. (The usual.)

      I can’t stress this enough: obey the page limits. If there are no page limits, don’t send more than 8-10, since I typically know everything I need to about someone’s writing by page 5. If your sample is on some esoteric point of ERISA preemption and I have no personal or professional interest in ERISA preemption sending a 32 page writing sample I have to slog through when scoring an application is going to irritate me. You can bet I will be calling whoever was responsible for the job posting to insist on page limits next time.

      Other thoughts: Look at the duty statement/job description and craft your application to speak to it point by point. If the job description includes drafting regulations, which you have no experience in, but you do have experience with regulatory interpretation make sure you speak to it. Sometimes an adjacent skill is close enough to get a toe in the door.

      It looks like you did an internship at an agency, if you’re still on good terms with any of the attorneys there, you should consider asking them to review the resume/application you use for government jobs and provide feedback (esp. if it was federal or in a state you’re applying for). The attorneys I work with genuinely like to help our former interns succeed, and I can’t imagine them being unwilling to do this.

  35. Clinical Trial Career Advice*

    Anyone here work in clinical trials? My partner would like to work in that space and we are trying to figure out where to live after finishing up PhDs (in biomedicine). The choice is down to (1) Boston or (2) the Research Triangle Park area of North Carolina. Both seem like good biotech hubs, is either location easier to get an entry level clinical trial assistant or coordinator job?

    Is it hard to break into this career with a science/bio PhD but without clinical experience?

    If we say that I have a ‘soft’ offer for a job of my own in Boston, which includes help with networking to find my partner a job, does that weight Boston better than the RTP? Thank you to the AAM community for any advice!

    1. Blackcat*

      I’ve lived in both areas.

      Honestly, they are *really, really different.* You can probably get jobs in either (I can’t speak to biotech, though I know lots of folks who’ve been in biotech via living in both cities). But I’d focus more on where do you want to live.

      Urban, reasonable transit, HCOL, proper winter, sunsets at 4pm in December?
      Suburban, almost non-existent transit, middle COL, summer is hot as balls?

      I’d pick Boston over the Triangle any day for quality of life reasons. But I also pay 1.5x what I would in NC for housing, and 2x for daycare for my child. But the schools in greater Boston are, on the whole, much better than most in the Triangle area, largely due to funding concerns. That obviously doesn’t matter if you don’t have kids/don’t plan to have kids. But it matters to me. I also REALLY prefer living in an area with good public transit. Greater Boston is a much more geographically compact urban area than the Triangle (see also: one city vs 3). Pre-COVID, I walked a mile to work while my husband biked 3 miles. This comes with sacrifices, of course, but the ability to live with one car as a family and build exercise into our daily commutes was a massive quality of life issue. Sure, we now are raising a family in a house much smaller than the apartment we had in NC, but that’s an okay trade off for us. Less time in a yard, but more time in public spaces (there are more here!).

      Honestly my biggest issue with Boston are the winter sunsets–we really ought to be in Atlantic time rather than eastern. But otherwise? For me, Boston is the place to live, hands down.

    2. a triangle resident*

      I can’t speak to your job question, but as a Triangle resident (and former DC resident w/ friends in the Boston area) I can say that it’s decidedly cheaper to live here. Public transport is decidedly worse, so you’d need cars. But there’s beautiful places to walk/hike, warmer weather (e.g. today has snow in the forecast but the ground isn’t cold enough for it to stick), and Durham/Chapel Hill (while they have their issues) are more progressive than the rest of the state. good luck with your job searches!

    3. LKW*

      If I had to pick one, Boston is more expensive but that area is exploding with biotech companies and every major pharma company has a satellite in Cambridge. You simply have more options in my opinion. But as people have noted, housing in Boston & Cambridge is pricey and commuting by car into Cambridge is a nightmare.

      1. Bostonian*

        Agreed with the plethora of choices. In addition to Boston and Cambridge, nearby Waltham also has a lot of biotech industry, but is even worse to get to since there is no public transportation, and 95 during rush hour suuuucks.

        As to the LW’s question about no clinical experience- in my experience, the PhD will get you pretty far in a lot of roles starting out.

      2. Blackcat*

        “commuting by car into Cambridge is a nightmare.”

        But once we all have vaccines (which Boston loves! MA has the highest vaccination rates in the country. We love Big Pharma) and can use transit again, there are many relatively affordable option that are quick on transit. It’s not necessarily the drive times, but the parking that will get you.

        Waltham, Arlington, Belmont, etc. Lots of good options that aren’t Boston/Cambridge/Newton prices and are still ~20-30 minutes by bus.

    4. Clinical Researcher*

      I worked in clinical trials in the California Bay Area. Much better weather than either Boston or Research Triangle Park. Decent public transportation. Lots of biotech. In any location look into a CRO (Clinical Research Organization). They are usually a good way to break into clinical research & they’ll provide valuable regulatory & on-the-job training.

      1. Damn it, Hardison!*

        I second the recommendation to look at CROs. A lot of biotechs and pharmacy use them, and they are a great way of getting experience. A lot of the folks in the clinical operations of my previous company came from CROs. On location, my vote is for Boston, because there are so many biotechs and CROs in the area.

    5. Argye*

      Come join us in Maryland! We’re the 4th largest biotech hub in the country, and growing rapidly. A little cheaper than Boston, but still good mass transit. I run a Biotech training program here, and we can place graduates as soon as possible. We’ve even got a Biotech bootcamp program running to teach displaced restaurant workers how to do cell culture to get a biotech job. Astra Zeneca, American Gene Technologies, Lonza, are all hiring as fast as humanly possible.

  36. Anon for reasons*

    I would love to hear how other organizations handle anonymous feedback. Senior leadership at my organization is leery of anonymous feedback and questions. The sentiment is that anonymity stifles transparency. Though I understand their thinking, my feeling is that not everyone is comfortable raising concerns to management on sensitive topics. What do other organizations do and how do you feel about it?

    1. mbarr*

      So two things:

      1. Anonymous feedback can obviously be a rabbit hole. My multi-national company recently had an anonymous employee engagement survey (mostly multiple choice)… But then we found out that managers with 5+ employees would get their teams’ anonymously written comments sent to them. Depending on what was written, suddenly managers could figure out who said what. So if you advocate for anonymous feedback, make sure details like the above are outlined ahead of time.

      2. Back in 2004, I worked for a company that accepted any and all employee feedback (not anonymous). Employees could write suggestions for any department or any problem they saw. Suggestions were entered into a tracking system and routed to the relevant teams for their feedback. The teams would either accept it, or reject it, with comments, then they’d provide updates on the suggestion within the system. It gave writers a sense of ownership, and let them see the results of their suggestions. Here’s a (terribly written) example:
      Suggestion: I saw some employees by building X performing work without a safety harness.
      *Routed to Safety team of building X
      Safety team: We accept this. We’ll re-review safety requirements with all staff in this building.
      Safety team: Upon investigation, we learned that one harnesses was broken, and that’s why it wasn’t used. Someone forgot to submit a request to buy a new one.
      *Routed to procurement team
      Procurement team: We’ll buy a new harness
      Safety team: harness is now available
      Ticket closed

    2. shoutouts*

      As a contributor, I completely understand and appreciate the ability to give constructive comments about my higher ups (although I’ve never actually seen anything change.)

      As a manager, the anonymous comments are frustrating. My unit did a 360 evaluation and one of the comments was, “shoutouts needs to be more flexible.” No such sentiment had been expressed to me before, and I always strived to be flexible about hours and policies. But that’s what went into my evaluation, although my boss had no idea what I was not being flexible about, and I didn’t know how I was supposed to improve. Years later, I found out that it was an employee who was unhappy that I told them they couldn’t make a major change to their job duties. But what if it had been something I *could* have changed? I love actionable comments. All too often, though, the comments are short and lack context so you know what to do with them.

      1. Middle Manager*

        Same. While I appreciate the idea of having a safe way to give feedback to those above you, my experience with a 360 was so frustrating. I don’t know if it was just the tool used, but I literally didn’t know what some of the comments meant without more context and had no way to follow up then of course to get clarification. I also had one disgruntled employee at the time (she was on a PIP then and has since left), so it was hard to know if some of the feedback from several staff tor some of it was just this person taking an opportunity to bash me anonymously.

        I feel like the better option is creating an environment where it is safe to share constructive feedback up the chain of command without fear of reprisal. But obviously that’s way harder to do than an anonymous survey.

        1. shoutouts*

          Yes! And I think people (often for good reason) don’t trust that the comments will be kept anonymous so they make them super vague to avoid identification. But rarely does that lead to anything valuable to be learned.

    1. Kimmybear*

      There is a lot of stuff on lots of topics. Some is better than others. I find the intro level materials are a good start on many topics but often not deep enough for a more advanced learner

    2. mbarr*

      For others, FYI some local libraries provide access to it through your library card. :)

      I usually just focus on training materials that are relevant to my current pain points. E.g. Got assigned work as a Product Manager? I better look up Product Manager fundamentals videos.

      1. ThinMint*

        That’s awesome about the library tip. My spouse wants to do some of the videos but his company doesn’t have a partnership.

    3. Kate H*

      My company uses it too and we’re allowed to allocate time to view materials during work hours. I have an insane workload so I rarely have time to partake but I’ve watched a couple videos on Excel (one of which taught me XLOOKUP functions and changed my life) and one on SEO (okay, not great).

  38. pyewacket*

    Has anyone ever went back to school for an MS in Engineering Management? I’m really at a crossroads and not sure what I want to do for a job and/or school. I graduated with a BS Mechanical Engineering with minors in accounting, math, business and physics. Worked for about 5 years as an ME, now Director of Operations (16 years) for a small manufacturing company. So I do anything from HR, IT, finances, customer service, CNC programming and even running machines. My projects through the years have been based off of lean mfg/six sigma concepts but are watered down. I have a lot of broad knowledge and experience but not in depth and that makes me think I should go back to school. I think its going to be hard time finding a job. Any advice or suggestions is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      Have you ever thought about an MBA? I did one geared towards geeks, with strong Supply Chain and Entrepeneurial Development concentrations, and it was a good springboard for moving industries.

      But it really depends on what you want to do in the future – start a new company, switch industries, or move to a C-suite position in a bigger company? MBA’s good for that. Dive deeper into DofO type positions? MS in EM or Industrial Engineering are fine. I *think* US manufacturing’s going to get a renewal in the next 4 years, but it’s going to be tech / green tech manufacturing, and will be concentrated geographically, so I don’t know if that will help you.

      When I went for the MBA, I looked at how much time / money it would cost, including reduced work for 18mo, and decided it would be worth it. It was. But I had high risk tolerance (no kids, husband had a job), and was switching industries just a decade into my career, so the salary boost was a lot.

      1. pyewacket*

        The degree gets touted as the engineer’s MBA because in a lot of programs this is a dual degree of an MBA and MS in IE (min of 2 years). I really enjoy operations and six sigma projects and I like the idea of going back to school since I was a non-traditional student the first time. But my risk tolerance isn’t as high as yours, no kids but youngish widow. And that leads me to my crossroads, there have been so many unwanted changes since my husband died 2 years ago I’m not sure what jobs I should focus on in between now and going back to school. And its all tied up to my confidence, why anyone would want me, a f(43) widow with a mismatch of skills? Same way I feel about dating coincidentally. So thank you, this at least let me have someone hear my fears.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I lost my husband when I was 45.
          All these unwanted changes are not helping you in the least that is for sure. It’s hard to feel like there are any certainties left in this world. And yeah, my risk tolerance got severely clipped off when he passed. It all kind of makes sense though, because loss can turn our world upside down. Then add in Covid and the violence that is happening…. ugh.

          I will say, I thought that year number 2 was harder than the first year. If this sounds familiar to you then it could be that your solution is just to wait one more year or even 6 months and see if a little more time brings a little more clarity. You could use this time to do some research/home work into various ideas. Or you could just read job listings in your area to see what is going on.

          OTOH, another suggestion I have is it to make one big life change at a time. For example, you have nailed down where you are at with the whole idea of dating right now. So perhaps just let go of thinking about jobs at all, and decide what you would like to focus on. Maybe this causes you to realize you really don’t want to think about changing jobs and you’d prefer to think about/work on X. (Whatever X might be.)

        2. Jules the 3rd*

          My deepest sympathy for your loss. I can not imagine how hard that is.

          Fears are normal; small steps is a good response to that. Maybe for you, a small step is to take a class or two that would definitely be in the MS program in the evenings and see how well you can concentrate right now. I took intro Accounting a few years before the MBA, and between that and my undergrad Econ degree, my first semester in MBA school would have been super easy, if I hadn’t taken that 5th class in Project Management. Well worth it though, I used PM in most of my later classes to run all the projects.

          MS in Engineering Management sounds waaaaay cool. If I’d known about it / had a local school for it, I’d probably have done that instead of an MBA. But the MBA for geeks was in walking distance of my apartment…

  39. ThatGirl*

    There’s a company in my area that I would have been thrilled to work at a decade ago, but it’s funny, I feel much smarter about these things now and I see red flags. I’m almost 40, and in my phone screen they spent a lot of time asking about my college experience (at a semi-prestigious small Midwestern liberal arts university). That was 20 years ago! They took three weeks to follow up and the follow up was to ask about my honest response to the online application that I’d once been fired from a job. I was fired, 13 years ago. I’ve had a stellar track record since. Is that really the deciding factor? I was so glad to be able to graciously remove myself from the running.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Yeah, that’s a lot of bad recruiting behavior (other than the three week follow-up timeline, that’s pretty normal, unfortunately).

      Kudos to you for having the experience and wisdom to remove yourself from a messy situation/company :)

      1. ThatGirl*

        Yeah they’d said it would only be a few days, but I know better than to trust that – it was more that they’d had 3 weeks and still weren’t sure about me because of something that happened 13 years ago.

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          Yeah, their follow-up was pretty silly. Oh well, their loss!

          Onwards and upwards :)

  40. Introvert girl*

    I’m so tired. I can’t sleep at night and fall asleep in front of my computer. Everything hurts, I have no energy left. I’m seeing my doctor tomorrow. My COVID test was negative a couple of months ago. Since my coworker left in May, he hasn’t been replaced. I do get some help, but’s around 8-10 hours a week, which means I have to do around 65-70 hours in 40 hours (overtime is not allowed as we’re too expensive). On Monday I found out this is how it’s gonne stay and I have to do more things. I’m looking for another job, am in therapy and on meds. But I’m so exhausted and want to sleep all the time. Does anyone have any tips on how to make it through until I’m out of this? How to cope? I can’t quite my job due to financial reasons.

    1. Colette*

      Have you tried being clear about what you can do in the time you have, and asking your manager to help you prioritize your work? In general, it helps to let stuff drop when it’s an unreasonable amount of work.

      1. Introvert girl*

        I’ve been telling my manager on and off since July that I can’t do it on my own. Also, another department is paying our department for a project (they are paying for 2 x 20 hours a week but they are getting around 25-30 hours). My manager just refuses to budge. Maybe it’s because he’s new as a manager since July and wants to prove himself. I din’t have this problem with my previous manager. I’ve been telling him on Monday’s what I can accomplish and asking for extra hours from other team members, but she can only spare a couple of hours a week :(

        2. Malarkey01*

          This isn’t the perfect solution but I was once in a similar position where It was impossible without extraordinary effort to get everything done and my manager told me to figure out a way…and I finally just didn’t. I did what I could (and really did bring my best work to those tasks), documenting what I did accomplish, and then the other stuff just didn’t happen. As someone who takes pride in doing the impossible and always delivering, this was really hard but I realized that by coming through every time my manager had no incentive to fix or help it. Honestly when the workload is this overwhelming and you’re doing the work of two you have a bit of leverage since what are they going to do? Fire you and have to replace you with 3 people who are u trained?
          Not something I’d normally recommend but if you’ve tried talking to the manager and this isn’t a temporary short term situation, you have to work with the options you have to survive.

        3. Not A Girl Boss*

          It’s not enough to talk in broad terms about what help you need. You need to start working exactly 8 hours and then say “no” to the rest. As long as they can get what they want out of you and not pay any more, they will.

          I posted a story down thread if you search by my name where I talk about what happened when my mom finally started saying no for real and not being guilted. (answer: nothing, they assigned it to other people or delayed projects)

    2. lobsterbot*

      Ask your doctor to put you on leave for a week or two. Work will have to figure some stuff out without you and maybe things will be better when you come back, or maybe you’ll have a new job,

    3. WellRed*

      Get help prioritizing and let the other stuff go to the back burner or get dropped. That’s really the only way.

      1. Introvert girl*

        This is hard for me as I’m a perfectionist, but I believe you’re right. I need to drop things instead of working for two.

        2. Not A Girl Boss*

          The book “how to be an Imperfectionist” literally changed my life. It made me stop living in fear of failure.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          You can have perfection or you can have your health. We have to pick between our ideals and what is doable, I have seen this first hand. In my own way I also tried to be all things to all people. Until you change what you are doing, your boss is not motivated to change what he is doing. I think the idea about getting leave is excellent and I think when you return to work that perhaps the doc can give you a note that says you cannot work more than 40 hours because your health issues will not heal and in fact could return bigger than ever.

          Please try to understand that they are using you, not much different than a bad SO. Don’t be so focused on perfection that you don’t see what is actually going on here.

        4. allathian*

          I used to be a bit of a perfectionist, it took two bouts of near-burnout to get me to change my ways. If my work meets my employer’s standards, they don’t really care if it doesn’t meet my own internal standards. As long as the disparity isn’t large enough to make me demotivated or indifferent to the job, it’s just one of these things I have to live with.

          In my job I serve internal customers, so I’m not really in control of how much work I get. That said, I have a lot of leeway in how much of it I’ll outsource so my coworker and I can cope with the workload. Before, my perfectionism showed in that I was doing projects that I really should have outsourced, because I didn’t want to lose control of them. But I learned. It also helps that I know my boss has my back on this, she’ll help me prioritize projects if necessary, but mainly she trusts me to do a good job while still making sure I maintain my health.

    4. LKW*

      One thing is to define and stick to a bedtime routine. It takes me a few hours to unwind after work, even if it’s not a stressful day, so I know I need to shut down by 7 if I want to be in bed by 10.
      Avoid the things that stress you in this wind-down time. No news. No email. No work.
      Find things that help you take your mind off of trying to fall asleep. I would play sudoku or games that weren’t timed, no sound, until I could feel my eyes drooping. Eventually it became easier and easier to fall asleep because it was the routine to fall asleep while playing that specific game.

      I also recommend listening to the Ologies Podcast on Sleep – it made me feel so much better about sleep, lack of sleep and not sleeping through the night. Totally changed my perspective and it’s helped me a lot. It also has a trick for falling asleep which I’ve used successfully.

      1. Introvert girl*

        Thx, I’ve been watching too much news lately before bed which worries and stresses me more ;) Just shower, bed, book (or crossword puzzle) and dog with a hot blanket will help. I’ll check out the podcast!

    5. Joielle*

      Not sure if this is the kind of advice you’re looking for, but – I’ve also been having a super hard time falling asleep at night recently, and what’s been helping me is an app called Relax Melodies. My problem was racing thoughts, couldn’t get my brain to shut up long enough to fall asleep. Relax Melodies has a whole bunch of “sleep stories” – basically a person with a soothing voice reading you a sedate bedtime story with a relaxing soundtrack. I listen to one most nights now and I’m almost always asleep before the story ends (so, 15-20 minutes or so). It distracts my brain just enough to calm the racing thoughts without being so stimulating it keeps me up.

      I just got a pair of inexpensive sleep headphones (basically a soft headband with little flat speakers in it) and that setup has really helped a lot.

    6. Mockingjay*

      First, recognize that no matter how many hours you put in, you CANNOT do the work of 2 people. It is not physically or mentally possible. Period. Please do as others recommend: prioritize, or do what you can until Friday afternoon and just…stop. Seriously. Your boss may be irritated or angry, but their reaction isn’t worth endangering your health.

      Second, as long as you keep trying to do both jobs, your boss has no incentive to replace the coworker or reorganize the workload. They’re already refusing to act when you asked for relief. This boss does not care about employees. Again, just stop.

      Third, put yourself first. Good companies try to take care of their employees, but ultimately it’s up to you to protect and care for yourself. Take some time off; get a letter from your doctor if needed, and REST. See point 2 – boss does not care about you.

      Fourth, when you are rested, examine your options. If your company is large and you like it, present circumstances excepted, is a transfer possible? If not, time to consider a job hunt. Work only the 40 so you have the time and strength to job hunt.

      There was a recent letter or open thread about this very same thing; I’ll try to find the link and post in a reply.

      To reiterate my advice in that letter: we can be in the workforce for 30-40 years. You will have multiple jobs in that span. No one has ever looked back on their career and thought, if only I worked more overtime… Take care of yourself first.

      1. Introvert girl*

        I like that last part. :) Thank you for the advice. I already responded to an application for a new job, took a long walk with my dog, took a hot shower and am now in bed with a crossword puzzle.

    7. Deborah*

      I couldn’t tell if you are in pain from an illness you already know about? If you don’t know why you are experiencing pain, I just wanted to mention that debilitating fatigue and either joint or muscle pain are very often the first and most difficult symptoms people have with autoimmune diseases. It can also be difficult to get properly diagnosed (I’ve read the average is 5 years from onset of symptoms to diagnosis). If this isn’t relevant, my apologies. Otherwise, I agree with tree others, do your best and refuse to accept the responsibility to do everything because it’s impossible. And document everything! And…probably time to look for a new job. If it helps, I got a new job in August in the middle of this pandemic so it’s not impossible…

      1. Introvert girl*

        Thx, I’ve been through a bunch of tests, but it’s mostly just due to stress. I got a couple of days off and am resting a lot. I also started to take long walks in the evening with my dog to destress and relax before bedtime.

  41. You can call me flower, if you want to*

    Like many companies, my very small tech company just announced layoffs, and while my job is safe for now, we aren’t hitting sales goals. (I’m not in sales, but that’s how we make money.) I’m nervous about the instability and finding it hard to focus on planning for the quarter ahead. I love my boss, and I like the work, and I’d rather not jump ship if I don’t have to. I guess I’m asking for advice about how to move past the feelings that layoffs bring (I’m relatively knew to the workforce) and I’ve never been through layoffs before at anywhere I’ve worked.

    1. Toodie*

      Put plans in place just in case you’re laid off. Be sure your resume and references are up to date, cast a critical eye on your budget. I hope you aren’t laid off, but it’s much better to be prepared.

      1. Mockingjay*

        Concur about the budget. Cut expenses now and start socking away whatever funds you can.

        Look into your state’s requirements for unemployment; while you hopefully will never need it, it’s a good idea to figure out the process ahead of time. UI can be very cumbersome and many states have a backlog due to the pandemic.

        If you have employer insurance, consider getting your healthcare needs up to date: annual physical, dental cleaning, etc. Would you need COBRA coverage or does your state offer other options, including ACA?

        All this sounds daunting, but it’s good information to have. I was in a similar situation and knowing/preparing these things ahead of time meant that I could focus solely on the job hunt when the time came.

    2. lapgiraffe*

      1) get your resume in order at the bare minimum. I don’t know about others but I have found (through multiple layoffs now in my career) that the mental energy to do a good resume is more depleted post layoff than it is before even when things at work are bad. Think of it as a gift you are giving to your future self.

      2) start job hunting. You don’t have to take anything you don’t want, but I can also speak from experience that it is much better to get out ahead of a closing business than to wait it out. If you find the thought of instability a challenge now then I don’t have good news for you on how much worse you’ll feel with actual instability.

      3) trust your gut. If it seems like the ship is sinking, or even just has some holes and some water getting on, don’t ignore it. Be proactive, protect yourself, and good luck out there!!

  42. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    I work from home and have a hard time getting started in the morning. My alarm goes off at 745 and I usually sleep til 9. I look around online for an hour before I drag myself to the computer. I want to start at 9 or 9:30. The worst it’s gotten is when I got started at 11:30! I can usually be on time if something is actually scheduled at nine but on days where my first appointment is at 4 it’s really difficult

    1. Colette*

      Back in the day, I made the decision to get up when my alarm goes off, even if I don’t want to. Can you set yourself rules to make it easier for yourself? It could be “I get up when my alarm goes off” or “I start work at 9, even if I’m still in my pajamas”.

      1. SomebodyElse*

        I have the most obnoxious alarm clock in the world. It’s loud and angry. There is no way I want to hear that more than once per day so it forces me to get up and out of bed. Extra points it also has an evil strobe light if I ever find that that the angry foghorn isn’t getting the job done :)

      2. Malarkey01*

        Paired with this, set your alarm for the time you really need to get up. I habitually set my alarm for 6:30 even though if pushed I could sleep until 7 and still be on time. The result was I tended to oversleep and snooze until 7:30. Once I was realistic with the time and eliminated the “wake up negotiation” my brain understood to get up now.

    3. ThatGirl*

      What stops you from getting out of bed when your alarm goes off? Serious question to ask yourself. If you need more or better sleep, there are ways to help that. If you just need a mental push, put your alarm farther from the bed. If you hate your job, that’s a different problem. If you’re depressed, that’s also a different problem.
      You don’t necessarily need to answer that question here, but I think the barrier is worth considering so you know how to break it down or get around it.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        Hmm… I tend to sleep a lot anyway. Like on the weekend I can go to bed at midnight and get up at 3 in the afternoon. My job is a big hassle and I am always procrastinating on doing it. Somehow not having to ” have to” get up ( since no matter what I’ll be working til 8) really makes me stay in bed

        1. ThatGirl*

          Honestly to me it sounds like either you have sleep issues or you’re depressed – maybe not clinically, but if you don’t like your job and find motivation hard, there are things you can do to help improve motivation and maybe job search. A checkup might be a good place to start, for potential vitamin deficiency or other physical issues. And if winter is especially hard, exercise and a light therapy box could help. Just spitballing.

        2. specialK*

          Well if you start at 11:30 and finish at 8, that’s an eight hour workday with a half hour lunch. Maybe the problem is the expectation that you should be working 11 hour days?

          1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

            I was hoping that if I got in earlier I might finish earlier. Certainly not at five but at least by 7….

        3. Engineer Mom*

          What are the expected hours per week? It seems like if you are going to be working until 8 regardless maybe you should plan to start at 11:30 and quit beating yourself up? If the hours are expected to be 60 hours a week and they pay you handsomely for that then I would think about having the coffee pot set up to be ready when you get up and be physically located such that you can smell it from bed.

          But, I quit drinking last May so now I’m excited to go to bed at night so I’m m closer to coffee. This may motivate me more than most.

          1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

            We are only paid for 40. We are not paid handsomely. Im about to get more work so I was hoping to start earlier and get more in but my job might be impossible in 40 hours…

    4. Crowley*

      I recent got a sunrise alarm. It’s really helped. If you’re in the UK it was £43 inc delivery from Argos.

      1. MarMar*

        I couldn’t find a sunrise alarm I liked, so I put a smart lightbulb in my bedside lamp. It slowly turns on over the 20 minutes before my alarm, and I usually wake up peacefully 5-10 minutes before my alarm now.

        Before, if the alarm hit at the wrong part of my sleep cycle, I would be incoherent for like an hour haha.

    5. Sandman*

      This is where I’m at right now, too. For me I think it’s a combination of regular winter blues with pandemic fatigue – I don’t have a reason to be this blah, I just am. I don’t feel sad or anxious, I just don’t want to do anything. At all. No advice, I’m afraid, just a whole lot of commiseration.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        Winter is hard for me too. I really hate getting dressed and it takes me like thirty minutes to drag my three layers of clothes from the floordrobe and put them on.

    6. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I have a similar problem! My work day starts at 9 in that that’s the time people are generally expected to be around, and 9 onwards is fair game for meetings. Before WFH I was leaving at around 7.30 – 7.45 am in order to deal with the commute with some ‘contingency’ time and have some time to myself before officially starting work … lately I’ve been setting my alarm for 7.30 and then sleeping in until about 8.45!

      I suggest setting your alarm for earlier (mine used to be 6.30 when I was leaving at 7.30). Give yourself permission to snooze for an hour or so and then take an additional hour of ‘taking it easy’ with a cup of coffee in bed (or whatever suits – browsing the internet etc). Currently I’ve agreed with myself (!) that when my alarm goes off at 7.30 I can ‘snooze’ until 8.30 at the latest, or wake up earlier if I feel up to it and spend that time trolling Reddit etc.

      I find the day feels much longer and more full of opportunity when I have some time in the morning (even if I did have to drag myself out of bed earlier than I would like) and again in the evening, rather than feeling like I’m in a cycle of sleep – wake up – work – do something – sleep etc.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        Before COVID when I had to go in I’d be ready by 830 845 because my mind was like OMG!! But now its like… man I have to put on pants, I wish sweatshirts were professional, I dont want to make doctors appointments for children…. Maybe I will build in more dawdle time…

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Sometimes when I get like this I need to move around more. Can you take walks? Even 15 minutes a day can make a difference.

          I am a big fan of going to bed at the same time every day and getting up at the same time every day. Even on weekends, but weekends have nap times where week days do not. The reason I had to do this was because it was just too hard to get up on work days. Once I removed that option of sleeping in, things got better. It also helped to insure I went to bed on time.

      2. allathian*

        Admittedly I’m an early bird, but my alarm goes off at 6 on weekdays. Or rather, I have a sunrise lamp and I’m usually awake by 5.45. I like getting a leisurely breakfast, reading the morning paper on my phone, taking the time to dress without hurrying (WFH I shower in the evening after exercise, 2 or 3 times a week), making sure my son gets to school on time, etc. Depending on the day I start work between 7 and 8.30, although usually earlier. I get tired in the afternoons and unless there’s a looming deadline, I prefer to stop working by 3.30. Sometimes I take a break during the afternoon slump, and if it’s really urgent and I have to continue working, I’ll log on again in the evening. This is very rare, though, and has happened less than a handful of times during covid.

    7. lemon*

      Have you tried using the Alarmy app on your phone? It lets you set up challenges that you have to complete before it lets you turn off or hit snooze on your alarm. You can choose math problems, puzzles, or even set it up to require you take a photo of a certain item (e.g. your toothbrush). Might be worth looking into.

      But also, is getting up later having an impact on your work? Are you still meeting deadlines and getting everything done? If so, maybe getting up later isn’t such a big deal.

      I’ve been doing this, too. Some days, I don’t wake up until 10 or 11, and at first, I was beating myself up over it. But then I realized, I was still able to get everything done, so I might just need to accept that my work hours are just going to be more flexible now. Some days I start at 8am, some days I work till 7pm– it just depends on what’s going on that day. It was just kinder to myself to let go of the expectation that I had to work certain hours (of course, I know not all jobs let people have this flexibility and may require you to be available at certain hours, so this advice would not apply.)

  43. Here we go again*

    My employer just declared chapter 11 in retail yesterday. I’ve been looking and I’ve had two interviews in the past week. Today my pay check was short a couple hundred dollars and they announced we cannot use any PTO, or call in or else they will deny us our unemployment. Can they F&$#%*£€ do that during the pandemic? Are they lying to us? which they’ve been doing a while. Is this grounds for quitting and still being able to collect unemployment? I live in the upper Midwest they haven’t plowed the parking lot, I have pictures. I have photos of the shut off notices from the electric company. The pay thing is a little harder to prove since I’m commission. What should I do? This is the second time I’ve gone through a liquidation. But I’m not going to put up with the abuse and the BS excuses again.

    1. Not A Girl Boss*

      No, they can’t do this. They have to pay you for hours worked and they can’t deny unemployment (FWIW employers don’t decide on unemployment, states do). See if you can talk to an employment lawyer or your state representative. Since this sounds like a big company, a lawyer might take it on as a class action type situation without up-front money from you.

      1. Here we go again*

        Thank you! I’ll call an employment lawyer ASAP. Since I’m one of the lowest ranking managers in the company. I hope the liquidation company walks the management team out on Monday. So I can put this behind me and move on.

        1. Can Can Cannot*

          I’d suggest calling your state department of labor first. They can make sure that you get paid for any hours worked.

          Your employer can refuse to let you use your PTO at this time, and could fire you if you have unexcused absences. That shouldn’t impact eligibility for unemployment, unless the amount of absences are egregious.

    3. Here we go again*

      Update:
      We had to have the police called for irate customers. I really don’t feel comfortable going to back to work tomorrow. I have a case # from the police report. Should this be enough to claim hostile environment?

      1. Not A Girl Boss*

        Please don’t take this as gospel, but IME lately it doesn’t take much effort to get an unemployment claim approved. The issue is that if the company disputes it, even if you win in the end, (or even if they don’t dispute it) you just need to be ready for unemployment to take weeks to months to come through. Alison suggested earlier this week talking to your state reps for assistance if you need it.

        1. Here we go again*

          What about physical threats or violence from customers that was brought on by corporate not providing a safe environment?

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I’d think they would listen to that. I filed for unemployment at one place and part of that story involved cohorts aiming their cars at each other and flooring the gas pedal. I was scared to go out in the parking lot. Eh, I was scared anyway.
            I had no problem getting unemployment from that place. It was by far the worst job I have had.

  44. Not A Girl Boss*

    Just wanted to give a shoutout to my mom, who works in a male dominated industry. Her hellhole of a job features incompetent bosses who make up stuff as they go along that causes her hours and hours of rework. She was working 3am-6pm every day, including weekends, leading up to the Holiday break. Her health was (shockingly) a mess and she was ready to quit with nothing else lined up.

    I finally convinced her to start saying no. What’s the worst that could happen, they fire her? So she did.
    And her bosses were like, “Oh, ok. Guess we need to hire a new person and/or not take on this project right now.”
    They sent her some typically ridiculous email and she replied “this is so disrespectful” and they called right away to apologize and make it right.
    A junior female employee messaged her “I never realized it was an option to say no until you did, so thank you.”

    So anyway, moral of the story is, its ok to say no. Your bosses job is to push you to achieve as much as possible so that they save as much money as possible. Your job is to draw clear, firm, respectful limits.

    4. Urban Prof*

      Thank you for posting this! So many people are afraid to push back when they’re being exploited and disrespected. I’m proud of your mom, too!

  45. Stephen!*

    Contracting for Dummies?

    I recently was hired for some very part time contract work (no actual tasks yet) and was wondering if there were any good resources about how to navigate that- taxes, what counts as time working- I had an on boarding process, should I be paid for that? Kind of “What to Expect When You’re Expecting Contract Work” type of resources.

  46. Freaking Out*

    How do I resign when my boss is suuuuper difficult? This may be long, but I really need help.

    I have been at one job for 8 years; my first long-term professional job. I’m ready ot move on for a variety of reasons and have an offer on the table. My current company has treated me well, but my boss is manipulative, judgemental, hurtful, and always defensive. Last time I put in my notice, she ridiculed and belittled me about the other offer to the point that I was was wondering if I had made a huge misstep (I hadn’t recognized her manipulative ways at that point and was still young and naive). She made a counter-offer, which I accepted.

    That was about 5 years ago and I have grown and matured much in that time and have been looking casually to leave ever since. I stepped it up the last 9 months because she finally made me salaried (a request I’d been pursuing for two years and was more than qualified to be in my role) but decreased my pay significantly, disguised by the new pay schedule. She wants me to take over her role eventually(though she is nowhere close to retirement), and admits I am qualified, competent, reliable, and can learn anything. So part of why she reacted so strongly to me wanting to leave last time was her realization about just how much I have to come to be in charge of in my role.

    I’ve come to recognize that I have self-sabotaged other opportunities in the past due to my fear of having that conversation again, and dealing with the aftermath for the remainder of my notice (we work feet apart and the transition would need to include her heavily). As an example, she has consistently marked me down on my annual reviews for the past 5 years for a lack of integrity due to the fact that I “betrayed” her those 5 years ago by looking for another job. She blurs the boundaries of our relationship constantly by acting friendly and compassionate, until I disagree with her and see her wrath.

    I’m literally terrified to put in my notice and, even though I’m excited about my other offer, a part of me wants to bow out just to keep things comfortable. Yes, I’m seeing a therapist, but unfortunately the time to act is now, and I’m feeling paralyzed by fear. I do not want to leave my company stranded by not working out my notice, nor do I want to burn the one professional reference I have (even if it is not my direct supervisor) by doing so either. So I can’t resign and walk out. Please help.

    1. I know nothing*

      Captain Awkward has great scripts for just these kinds of people. She also talks about the kinds of responses you may get from your boss & how to respond. Google her archives.

    2. Get out now*

      I second the Captain Awkward advice. I’d also make your resignation very bland both in person & in writing. Two sentences. Be prepared for old boss to really press where you’ll be going & press for details. Have a few bland non answers handy. “Oh I can’t reveal that just yet. I’m so flattered at your interest .” “I’m concentrating on looking forward, and thank you so much for all your support.” Give her some praise to deflect questions.

    3. I need coffee before I can make coffee*

      You do not owe your boss any details whatsoever about your new offer. She doesn’t have to agree with your decision, just accept it. I recommend adopting some form of “I’m grateful for my time here, but it’s time to move on” as a response. As far as “leaving your company stranded”, don’t forget that they probably don’t have that level of loyalty to you; most companies would cut any employee loose on a moment’s notice if they felt it necessary. In the end, it is business, not personal.

      1. irene adler*

        Right!

        And, after you deliver your notice, act like it’s the end of the conversation.
        Don’t stick around for the boss to comment on your leaving, or ask questions, etc.
        “It is time for me to move on” and walk back to your work area.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Adding this company was not worried in the least about you working for this toxic gaslighter.

        You are a quality person so you worry about these things. This company has done very little to deserve this much care.

    4. MissGirl*

      If you can’t work out your notice due to your boss’s toxicity, YOU are not leaving your team stranded. YOU are not the problem here. YOU are not responsible for your boss’s emotions. Your boss does not regard your feelings in the slightest. She may torpedo a reference, which is why it’s so important to leave now and build your reputation somewhere else.

      Search the site as Alison has tons of scripts on how to offer notice to difficult bosses and what to do if they abuse you during notice.

      Side-note, my roommate was manipulated into accepting a counter offer. A few years later she was laid off and her boss told everyone she quit and walked off. The next year he was arrested for running a Ponzi scheme, part of which was funded by the current employees. My point is the sooner you can distance yourself from someone like this the better you are.

    5. Haha Lala*

      Prepare your script and be ready to repeat things as needed. “It was a difficult decision, but this is what’s best for my career.” “I didn’t take this lightly, and I really value my experience here.” Vary and repeat as needed.

      And most important! Plan some sort of extraordinary reward for yourself for after you give notice, like an expensive dinner, indulgent desserts, fancy cocktails, etc. That way you can look forward to the reward instead of stressing about the conversations with your boss and stop yourself from pushing it off for later.

    6. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I understand your fear.

      Here’s another perspective: a similar situation played out 5 years ago. *5 whole years* in which she’s had the opportunity to develop more self-awareness, professionalism and maturity. Did she take the opportunity that presented itself? not fully clear whether she’s changed at all, but my guess is ‘not substantially’ due to the ‘revenge performance rating’ on annual reviews every year since.

      Please do go through with putting in your notice, in spite of this immature and unprofessional person (who is probably just concerned about how your departure would mean more work for her – oh well! That’s why she is in the management position, because she’s paid to figure out this stuff!) … if at all possible I’d urge you to try to work out the notice, is it 2 weeks you have to give? Regardless of the notice period, can you start a kind of “countdown” and cross off the days you have to work through. I think you might find that once you have definitively (by giving notice) made the move to leave, this might put itself in perspective — it did for me (with a workplace I was ‘enmeshed’ with).

      Realistically what is she able to do — ridicule and belittle you again? Guilt trip you about things she’ll have to handle when you’re gone? Listen outwardly to her, but inwardly parse it as “spider pig, spider pig, does whatever a spider pig does” or similar while she’s talking about any of this.

      You are on the cusp of bigger and better things — don’t throw it away again because of someone so small minded and insecure.

    7. Aly_b*

      Congrats on the offer! All I can say is that two weeks of pain will lead to a great deal of gain, and you will never have to do that or deal with her again in any significant way. I’ve never gone through this specific scenario but honestly leaving a toxic job/boss is great and in a few months will probably feel great.

      1. Dr. Anonymous*

        Remember if she’s nasty you can offer to make this your last day. And walk away from her.

    8. Hounds Abounds*

      Just keep saying to your boss (perhaps not out loud), “Thank you for confirming that my decision to leave was the correct one.”

    9. New Senior Mgr*

      And do not tell her or anyone at this workplace which company your new offer is located. Lie if you have to. It’s for your protection. Your current manager sounds like someone who will try to sabotage you if she can’t convince you to stay. Be strong. Stand firm. Walk out before your two week notice if she acts appalling. You don’t need her reference and if later down the line you do any potential employer will be sympathetic to your situation.

  47. Can I Have My Cake And Eat It Too?*

    I’m being a complete asshole but… is there any way I can return to my old job after quitting it for an internship? Or should I just quit it completely for an internship opportunity?

    After being laid off from my FT position due to COVID earlier this year, I was lucky enough to find a nice job with a non-profit. However I’ve been working on my degree via online schooling for the past 2 years (so FT work, PT studies) and am not looking to make a career in my current job’s field. To me, this is a job to pay for school and bills since I cannot find an entry level job in my degree’s field (Computer Science) unless I have the actual degree, while my job is more an entry liberal arts-related position.

    In my degree’s field, it’s highly encouraged to find an internship or two to be competitive for entry FT positions after graduating and to network. Though I’m only a sophomore level student, I struck gold with a Fortune 100 company and got offered an internship for this summer?! But now I’m conflicted of what to do… I’d love it if I could quit my current non-profit position, do the internship for 10 weeks, and then come back to the position so I can continue paying for my degree. Plus, I’ve never had such a great work environment before – no mental breakdowns so far!

    So now I’m conflicted – do I take this great internship opportunity but lose my awesome job or do I stay in my current job and wait for internship applications for next year? I’m considering quitting this job, taking the internship, and then keeping myself somewhat afloat with PT work positions and changing to FT school to I can get my degree faster… Yet I can’t help but have this worry about how much worse the economy will get this year :(

    1. Not A Girl Boss*

      Can you ask your boss about taking a leave of absence?
      Chances are, 10 weeks is a little too long. They’d need to hire someone to cover for you, and then there would be no job for you to come back to because its filled. But maybe its the kind of job where temp work would be fine.
      Also, why would a company want to hire back someone who they know has no long term plans to stay there?
      FWIW, I have quite a few friends who completed part of their schooling for Computer Science and ended up taking CS-related jobs such as technical sales before finishing their degree. That might be a path for you that puts you in a more competitive spot once you graduate, because the work history is more relevant. I know two who went on internships for small silicon valley startups and just never come back to school because the company asked themt o stay on.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        As a spin on this suggestion, could you do both (i.e. work off hours for one or both) or do one of those part-time?

        Asking for this may result in your manager nudging you out, since they likely want someone who is planning to make a career of this field (as @Not A Girl Boss observed), but that seems low risk since you’re open to quitting anyways.

        On the other hand, if you’ll be in this school plus work situation for the next two to three years, if you’re good at what you do, theorg may consider that worthwhile to keep you on for that time, even knowing it’s limited.

  48. anxious*

    I’m really struggling at the moment and would love some insight. It has been a hard year (left a six-year marriage due to escalating domestic violence; we have a 2 1/2-year old; trying to get back on my feet) and now some high-stakes job uncertainty is stirring up all kinds of anxieties.

    In mid-December I had an interview. Presumably it went well because they followed up with a “performance task” (to create a project similar to what I’d be doing on the job). Then I had another interview to debrief my performance task with a panel. Then they sent another performance task, with the disclaimer that they were “impressed by the caliber of the finalists” and, essentially, needed a little more clarity to make a final call. I submitted my second task on December 22, and a few hours later, got a follow-up called “Moving Forward” inviting me to a meeting the next day with HR to discuss salary and proceed with references and background checks. They explained they’d be on holiday vacation until Jan 4, but to submit all my reference and necessary background info (through online portals) so the checks could be completed in the meantime and ready to go when they got back. They also said they would make the final decision soon enough that I would be on-boarded and able to start on January 11. Through the online portals I was able to check that my references and background checks were complete on December 29. My background showed clean, and my references all seemed happy to recommend me — one even called me to let me know she gave a rave review.

    So with no funny business looming, I expected to hear back early this week, in order to do hiring paperwork and be able to start on Monday.

    After a few days of radio silence, on Weds afternoon I bit the bullet and sent a very brief “Hi, happy new year! Just checking in to see if you have an update on the decision timing? Thanks, X”

    Yesterday they replied that they are still making the final decision, and, “just in case,” asked if I am still available to start on Monday if they decide to move ahead.

    I don’t want to read the tea leaves *too* much, but any insight on what is going on or what I should do? Thanks in advance.

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      I think you should take them at their word — the communication is pretty clear.

      They are still making the final decision, and asked if you are still available to start on Monday if they decide to move ahead.

      1. anxious*

        Thank you for your answer. I guess I mistakenly inferred from the meeting with HR that unless the reference/background checks turned up something egregious, we were basically good to go, so I don’t understand what all this hold-up is about. And I think the difficult circumstances I am already in are amplifying the anxiety arising from that empty space. I will try to re-shift my focus to what I *can* see (their clear communication) rather than what I *can’t* (what must be going on behind the scenes). Easier said than done, but it helps to hear :)

      2. fhqwhgads*

        True but it’s also kind of shitty for them to not know the Friday before the Monday they want someone to start who they’re hiring for that role. Like, it’s fine if the timeline shifted on the decision, but the start date normally would too. They’re being weird and I’d wonder if working for them would be a lot of “drop everything right now and do this! and now wait.”

    2. Person from the Resume*

      They suck for saying that they’re still deciding but would want you to start Monday if they decided.

      OTOH hiring is often slower than even the company and the hiring manager wants despite their best intentions. And someone returning on Jan 4th deserves a few days to catch up, but shouldn’t optimistically imply she’s going to get back to you on that day either.

      Take them at their word. Sounds like they are still interested in you. But have your ducks in a row by knowing what is and isn’t acceptable to you (including if you can start on Monday). If they come to you with an offer today you don’t have to accept and start Monday. You can, but don’t let their sudden rush prevent you from considering the offer and negotiating for appropriate salary and benefits as if they weren’t in a rush.

    3. anxious*

      Thanks everyone who has commented for your affirmations and feedback. Just wanted to post the update that I got the job :) I agree it would have been a lot more relaxing to spend the week mentally preparing instead of agonizing, but I am also just glad to get some good news after a rough week/year.

      1. NeonFireworks*

        Congratulations! I am so glad to hear you have this. Here’s to ongoing stability and safety!

        1. anxious*

          Thank you so much, that’s so kind! And I actually just found out that the delay was because they filled the position but *created a new role for me* (and need to get it approved)! :)))

  49. HCBatman*

    I hope this story can cheer a few people up from this (rough) week.

    I work supporting and selling high end research equipment and have been going through round after round of configuration emails and calls with one group. I thought we might sell this system which would mean a nice commission check for me but you never know if they’re talking to another company and just using your quotes to lowball them.

    So yesterday we were on a zoom call that *felt* like the final call before confirmation and my pup is sleeping on the
    far end of my bed, which is in camera-frame. Just as we’re wrapping up and I’m about to confirm that they are going with us to order the system, the group starts laughing. I turn my head and *someone* has woken up from his nap and walked to the close end of the bed (near my face and much closer to the camera), sat down and then does shake-paw and lay down while the group laughs and says how cute he is.

    We won the order and I think he cinched the deal :P

    1. Not A Girl Boss*

      Lol I’m jealous. My dogs have a knack for only barking when I’m in the middle of an important call.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Nice :) My dog always picks a camera-on meeting to start climbing all over me, usually ending up curled up in my lap. (She’s 50 pounds of whippet mix, so six miles of legs to curl up – it’s a production.)

    3. Danish*

      Lol, adorable! That puppy’s a closer.

      Back in ye Olden days of us being in offices, I had an angry customer call saved by a co-worker’s (unfortunately kind of poorly behaved) new puppy. This poor customer had been shunted around to many different departments so he was pretty upset. Unfortunately I also wasn’t the right department, but I was keeping him on the line while I did my best to a live (and correct) person to transfer him to. While I was letting him talk out his frustration, the puppy started crying. The guy stopped mid sentence and, with evident delight, went “is that a dog?!” and then spent the last bit of time I had him on the phone cheerfully telling me about his pet corgis.

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I hope you will pay out some commission to him in the form of his favourite treats!

  50. JustaTech*

    My coworker is bored and she’s bugging me for projects that I don’t have.

    Context: my coworker (Betty) and I work for a biotech on the lab side. Our group and our department have been shrinking for years (for business reasons) and now it’s just the two of us and our boss. COVID really threw a wrench in our work (like everybody) and we now mostly work from home (something Betty has always preferred for non-lab work because her commute is terrible).
    Last year (2020) I was supposed to have 2 big projects, both of which ended up mostly on hold because of COVID. Betty had a couple of different big projects that went ahead because they 1) had to get done and 2) could mostly work around COVID limitations. These were big, cross-functional, multi-year projects. I have helped out on both of them, but only as extra hands in the lab.
    Because my projects were on hold but I still needed to *do* something I invented two projects that were 100% writing-based. One was related to one of my “on hold” projects, the other was based on an older, completed project.
    No one told me to do these things, though I did check that it was OK to do them before I spent too much time. One project ended up being a big deal, which was nice.

    So now it’s 2021 and one of my on-hold projects is active again (yay!). But both of Betty’s projects are complete and she hasn’t been assigned anything new. So she’s bored, and horning in on my project (I need her help, and my boss’s help, in the lab, but the analysis and write up are simple and one person is plenty for that). I’ve asked her (kindly) to ease off, and she has, but now she keeps asking me what she should do.
    I’ve offered all the usual things I’ve done in our down times (read up on all our past projects, especially the ones that didn’t go forward; get up to date on current trends in the scientific papers; take some Coursera classes), but she isn’t interested.
    When we’re between projects it is hard to justify lab work, because the material are really expensive.
    Is there anything else I can suggest? She’s already said hard no to any of the committees (women’s resource group, Black resource group, any of the “culture committees”), which I don’t blame her for (even if I got suckered into several).

    Is there anything else I can suggest? I feel like Betty’s a scientist of many decades of experience, she should be able to occupy herself, but maybe she’s never worked anywhere with slow times before?

    1. Who moved my cheese?*

      Is it part of your job to find her projects? Otherwise, refer her back to your boss or just say no, sorry, still don’t have anything?

      1. JustaTech*

        Nope, not my job at all. We’re peers (I’ve been at this job longer, she’s been in the industry longer). I’m 98% sure that she’s coming to me for something to do because she already asked my boss (he is *terrible* at finding “projects for the down time”, even though it happens every couple of years).

        I suggested she spend some time taking the tutorials for our statistical analysis software.

        It was just annoying yesterday when she first complained that no one had planned a baby shower for a person in another group (not in our org), but also said she wouldn’t do it, and then said she was bored.
        (I get not wanting to do a baby shower in normal times, but this would literally be a 30 minute WebEx where everyone says “Oh, congratulations, do you have a name yet?” and we’re done.)

        1. Who moved my cheese?*

          Try not to reinforce her behavior. It sounds like her takeaway has been that if bugging you for projects works every 1 in 5 times, you’ve shown her she needs to ask 5 times, not that she should ask you less. Try fewer suggestions, more redirecting?

          1. JustaTech*

            Yeah, I really should redirect more. Partly it’s because I tend to be a solver, and partly because I know if she doesn’t find something else to do she’ll just go in and start working on my stuff and no only will I have to un-do or re-do all of that, but then she’ll get all hurt and I’ll have to spend a lot of time dealing with her being mad at me. (Only coworker, and I need her to do parts of this project because I can’t work 36 hours straight.)

            The only good thing about our other coworker getting laid off is that now I don’t have to mediate their communication problems and hurt feelings.

            1. ..Kat..*

              Can you lock your stuff down so that she doesn’t have access to it? If not, can you save your work somewhere that she doesn’t have access (I.e., that way you would not have to undo what she did?)?

              If she does do this, what happens when you complain to your boss?

    2. Weekend Please*

      It sounds less like there is nothing to do (like you said she can read up on the literature, take an online class, join a committee) and more that she doesn’t want to do anything except experiments and analysis. You can’t help her unless you want to give her your project (don’t do it!). When she says she’s bored, forward her some papers to read. If she complains just say that you are sorry but you can’t help her.

      1. JustaTech*

        There is no way in heck I’m giving up this project even though I don’t like it!
        I am clinging to it like a toddler to their parent’s leg at daycare drop off.

        We had a meeting this past week and Betty asked who would be writing up this project and I said I would because it’s my study. And then I said “mine, mine” like the seagulls in Finding Nemo. Most professional thing I’ve ever done? No, but I’d do it again.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Validate her feelings and relieve yourself of responsibility for fixing them.

      She’s bored?
      “Aw, I know that sucks.”

      The end. Loop closed. You then get back to your own stuff.

      You aren’t her babysitter. Drop the rope.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds to me like she wants to PICK what she does.
      I’d go with, “Betty I have given you the only suggestions I have. I don’t have any more suggestions. You have indicated that you do not like any of my suggestions, so you can stop asking me. You will need to work this through some other way.”

  51. Dwight Schrute*

    Advice please! I’m currently a research fellow for the next year at least. I had interviewed for a position back in august and they suggested they may have a position opening up that would be a good fit! They just emailed me about the role, how do I let them know I’d love to work with them in the future potentially after my fellowship ends if they’re hiring then? I love the company and am quite familiar with it as my SO works for a branch of the company

    1. Who moved my cheese?*

      “I’m currently a research fellow until [date] but I would love the opportunity to discuss working with you after that date. Do you anticipate any openings on that timeline?”

    2. Reba*

      Just… say what you said here! (Maybe minus the SO) Am I missing some other factor that makes it more complicated?

      Would you consider ending the fellowship early and taking this presumably permanent position, if you were to go through the process and get a job offer? If not then, yeah, say thanks and hopefully next time it will work out.

      1. Dwight Schrute*

        No I’m just new to the workforce and very anxious and worried about burning bridges! I quite enjoy my current fellowship

        1. Who moved my cheese?*

          You don’t need to worry in this situation. It’s really, really, really not burning bridges to say you already have a position when someone you interviewed 6 months ago with that didn’t hire you 6 months ago reaches back out. It would not even be burning a bridge to say “thanks! this specific position doesn’t look like a good fit but I would love to keep an eye out if you have other things in the future.”

          Burning a bridge would be something like ghosting them, sending a rude reply, or quitting with no notice.

          Obviously there is a potential for any employer you encounter to be batsh*t and angry at you for anything you do, but that’s not your problem or something you can ever fix, that’s a bridge you *want* to burn and a signal that you shouldn’t work for them.

          1. Dwight Schrute*

            Thank you!! My first employer was one who probably would have burned bridges so I’ve been working on re calibrating my norms after going to grad school!

            1. Reba*

              Good for you. I agree with Cheese!

              Enjoy your fellowship! Since you are in a field with fellowships, people likely understand (and would be happy for you) that you have a time limited special opportunity.

  52. EnfysNest*

    I had to interrupt a coworker’s phone call because he had started shouting and getting close to insulting the vendor on the other end. In the moment, I just told him he needed to get someone higher up involved if he had gotten to the point of raising his voice, but afterwards he came to me to apologize (for disturbing me, not for the shouting itself necessarily) and I did bring up some of Alison’s scripts from here about how shouting is usually a sign that the speaker doesn’t feel like they have power in a situation. So I reminded him of the ways we do have control of the situation and that we have ways to properly deal with conflict with our vendors and things like that. He at least said he understood, although he has been very frustrated with this contact for quite a while now and he still indicated continued frustration even after we spoke.

    I don’t know how much our supervisor is aware of that exact incident, as he was in his office with the door closed on another call, but this particular coworker’s attitude has been a known concern for several of us in the office for quite a while, although this was the first time I’ve heard him literally shouting. Our supervisor’s style is very much of a gentle guiding hand sort, which is great most of the time, but has not been getting through to this particular coworker at all. I mentioned at my last performance review that I am struggling somewhat with the increased tension in our office since this coworker started and our supervisor is definitely aware of his behavior in general and his conflict with this particular vendor, but I don’t know if I can or should discuss this specific call with my supervisor.

    I’ve already been concerned for a long time with this coworker and the way his frustration and attitude seem to be escalating over time. But I don’t really know what I can ask for. Moving offices isn’t an option for either of us, and we’re already swamped as it is. But over the past year and a half, he has gone from just awkward / unfunny jokes to grumbling about the vendors to ranting about them (including calling them names such as “clowns” when talking about them) and now with this incident he has reached the point of actually yelling at one of them. I don’t like any of these behaviors individually and I *especially* don’t like the direction his behavior is trending.

    If I do go to my supervisor about him again, though, what specifically can I ask for? Am I within my bounds to ask that this coworker gets specific mentoring or a referral to the EAP or something like that? Or just request that our supervisor cut him off sooner when he starts ranting? Or do I just need to leave things alone and let my supervisor take whatever course of action he decides on his own? We are government positions, so firing is a difficult, and I wouldn’t actually specifically ask for that anyway, but I really worry about this guy continuing to escalate. I am job searching myself, and hopefully I will be able to leave in the near future, but even if I can, I still worry about this guy.

    1. Twisted Lion*

      I think it is very important to go to mention this to your supervisor. What you are describing is something we are told to be on the look out in our workplace violence training. I think mentioning that his behavior has escalated and is concerning to you is perfectly acceptable especially because he was shouting. Its up to your manager to decide what the next course of action is but they definitely should be told.

    2. Haha Lala*

      You could definitely bring that specific call up to your supervisor. “I just wanted to make sure you’re looped in, but the other day I heard Fergus shouting at a vendor and I told him to . Did I handle that correctly? Should I handle it differently in the future?”

      I’d say you shouldn’t request your supervisor handle his behaviors in specific ways, but make sure they are aware of how he’s behaving.

  53. Manders*

    I work in a field of digital marketing that isn’t web development or design, but the work I do means I’m often making suggestions and recommendations to the people who do those jobs. I’ve once again found myself in a tricky situation at a small company: the higher-ups think that since I seem knowledgeable, I must have some skill! The truth is that I have a knack for destroying everything I touch when I make changes to a site myself. I’ve already managed to break the entire site by making a small change to a date in a widget that should have had nothing to do with any essential site function.

    I’m recommending a big redesign of some essential pages now, and from the way the higher-ups are talking, it sounds like they think I can design and build pages on a staging site myself. How do I convince them that’s a very bad idea? I’m very good at my actual job, but web development is not and has never been my actual job. The company does have an actual web developer, but he’s on a different continent and often distracted by putting out urgent fires. The CMS we’re using is also the least intuitive one I’ve ever worked with, and very basic tasks like adding a text box to a page require a ridiculous multi-step process.

    1. Who moved my cheese?*

      Not clear from your comment – have you told anyone no? All you need to do is clearly communicate that this is out of your skill range. This is completely appropriate and should not be a big deal. If they push back you go into more detail about the skills required vs the skills you have, but start with “That’s outside my skill set!” and suggest a different solution.

      1. Manders*

        I’ve told people repeatedly that I’m not a web developer. Part of the issue is that I keep asking for things to be done, I’m told something like “Okay! We’ll test it out on the staging site!” Then it’s radio silence for a month and I can’t figure out if the people I spoke to expected me to test it on the staging site, if it just fell to the back of their own to-do lists, or if they’re working on it right now but haven’t shown me the finished product yet. I’m a very direct communicator and most of my coworkers are not.

        Communication’s been difficult all around since everyone’s working from home, most coworkers are trying to care for young kids while they work, we just finished up a very busy season, and there’s only a small window of overlap between the time I start work and the time most of my coworkers in another country stop. My direct manager is not actually someone who handles marketing, she’s just the one person who’s in the same country as me. The marketing director is so busy I only get to meet with her about once a month, she’s skipped almost all of our catch up meetings. I guess the bigger issue here is that starting a new job in the middle of the pandemic has been difficult, and I’m still struggling to figure out what’s expected of me with very little information to go on.

    2. pyewacket*

      I went through something similar but company wanted me to design a “simple website” with copy. I hate doing websites haven’t done one in 15 years. So I did a comparison of 3 quotes I received and added my “quote” which included costs and time table involved for me to design, research how to construct a web page, write copy plus a few opportunity costs that would be missed. The cost comparison really spelled everything out for me and owner decided to go with another company.

    3. Manders*

      Oh, one other thing: The site’s built on Magento 2, which I’m told can be difficult even for experienced web developers. I genuinely do think I’d be able to muddle through a lot of this myself in WordPress or anything with a WYSIWYG page editor, but I’m completely stumped by Magento. My boss has asked me to find a training course for Magento, and all I’m finding is aimed at experienced web developers.

      The site has some big issues I can diagnose but not fix, so I feel like I’m getting stuck in a lot of circular conversations. For instance, the site speed is very slow, and that’s bad for user experience and SEO. I can tell people why speeding up the site is important, I can generate reports showing just how slow the site is, but when I’m asked how to fix the site speed I have absolutely no clue where to even begin.

      1. pyewacket*

        If there are prerequisites to the training courses site that you don’t qualify. I really liked your last paragraph so can you rephrase slightly by saying your role is more like ER triage, you can diagnose the issues but you would refer the “patient” to a specialist.

      2. lemon*

        It sounds like they have no idea what they’re asking you to do, so you might need to break that down for them to help them understand. Maybe point out all the skills that one needs to be a Magento developer, and let them know which skills you’re missing? Just to be prepared to take a Magento development course, you’d need to know the following:
        -PHP
        -XML
        -HTML/CSS and Javascript
        -Bootstrap
        -LESS
        -MySQL
        -Node JS
        -Other stuff, I’m sure.

        Learning all of that can take a long time. Longer than a few months. You need a Magento developer. It might help to offer to get quotes from some Magento developers. It might be that they just expect you to figure out some way to get the project done– not that they actually expect you to build it yourself. If you can also highlight the amount of time you’ll save by hiring an expert rather than expecting you to learn it all, that could help make the case for it, too.

    4. PollyQ*

      Have you explained to them that designing & building are two very different skills, and that you only have the first? Architects generally don’t know how to lay brick, weld, wire for electricity, etc.

  54. Stepping Away*

    I am am currently pregnant (still a while to go) and will be stepping out of the workforce for a few years after giving birth. This is a decision my husband and I made together and I am very happy about however, I don’t know how or when to tell my boss. Multiple abstract comments have been made about needing to plan for my leave in a way that appears it’s a given that I will be returning afterwards. During a previous conversation around maternity leave someone asked about what happens if someone decides not to return afterwards and my boss said it’s never happened. I’m concerned with what this could mean for my medical and disability benefits (my husband and I both have our own and while I will switch to his after the birth, I don’t want to risk any insurance issues before delivery).

    I’m worried about the news not being received well and my remaining time at work being uncomfortable. I want to give the company ample notice as we will absolutely need to hire and train a replacement. I don’t want to leave them in a tough spot and don’t want to be pushed out early. Has anyone ever told their boss they would not be returning or had an employee plan ahead of time not to return? How did things turn out?

    1. Sabrina Spellman*

      I think I read somewhere that you shouldn’t notify your workplace before your leave starts and treat it as a two weeks notice, so you’ll inform them just prior to your scheduled return date.

    2. Aurora Leigh*

      I’ll be watching your replies as I’m in a similar position myself! I asked this question a few weeks ago and the general consensus seemed to be to give 2 weeks notice as usual (ie 2 weeks before I’m expected to return).

      For me, I would lose half the pay for my banked time if I quit without using it for FMLA, so I’d like to get that amount paid out before I share my plans. Also, I do qualify for 8 weeks short term disability pay which isn’t much but I hate to give it up! So check how any benefits would be affected!

      Not sure how insurance would work, I switched to my husband’s plan before we started trying for a baby because my employer’s plan would cost us $1000s more for even normal labor/delivery.

      But my coworker quit after her leave was used up last year and I don’t think there was any negative effects for her. Just don’t quit the way she did — texting our boss after she was over an hour late on what was supposed to be her first day back!

    3. Ann Perkins*

      I replaced someone who did this once. She was a tenured employee and they wanted her to be able to train the replacement so she wasn’t pushed out. She gave a tentative end date for when she was about 8 months pregnant and we had six weeks overlap so that she could be heavily involved in my training. This is in an office with good culture and morale overall so it went smoothly and the notice was appreciated.

      I don’t know why I commonly hear to wait until the end of your leave, unless health insurance is in issue or if it’s not 100% that you’re quitting. I believe giving them notice prior to your due date would be the best way to go unless you need the health insurance to continue through leave, but ending your insurance will be a qualifying event to be added to his insurance at any point. You might want to do a cost comparison on whose insurance the childbirth itself will be cheaper, if you haven’t already.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        At places I’ve worked, if you know for sure you’re not coming back, your last day would be the day before you go on leave – and would make it not “leave” but rather your last day. So not only if you needed the health insurance through this job, but also if this job offered any portion of paid leave, by resigning before taking it, you no longer have it. That’s one reason, although some do require you to come back after paid parental leave or else owe it back, so it may not always be a factor. But that’s usually the reasoning I see: if you tell them before the leave, then you’re actually quitting, not going on leave at all.

    4. Malarkey01*

      The norm in my experience is to start maternity leave with the expectation of returning and then during maternity leave to provide notice, although most times they aren’t kept on for the notice period so be ready for them to immediately cut you loose. honestly half the time people are planning to come back but decide mid-leave that they aren’t ready/want to make the switch/have some medical need to to return.

      I find it really hard to believe that your manager has never seen it happen.

    5. Stepping Away*

      Thanks everyone!

      It was a weird comment for my boss to make considering the large companies they have worked for in the past and our company now. Maternity leave is not something new for them and I cannot imagine there was NEVER a person that did not come back.

      Maybe I’ll just “plan” on the full 12 weeks FMLA and then notify them as soon as my disability is over? That would also give us time to switch insurance after the delivery so no issues with the hospital.

      1. tiny cactus*

        Take this with a grain of salt as I don’t have direct experience with this, but if there is a chance that you might just be let go early (before your parental leave) if you tell them your plans in advance, it seems like the safe bet is to wait. It’s nice that you’re concerned about giving the office enough time to plan, but from reading this site, I understand it’s not unheard-of for plans to change during leave, so I doubt they’ll hold it against you if you tell them down the line that you’ve decided not to return.

    6. Disco Janet*

      If I had done this I would’ve ended up having a ton of uncovered by insurance medical costs, so I ended up coming back, working for a couple weeks, then saying I’d changed my mind and giving notice. I felt like crap doing it, but the system was set up on a way that there was no other option that would’ve have cost me an insane amount of money.

  55. dorothyparker*

    So two things,
    1) My company laid people off yesterday and their exit agreement (they had to sign in order to get severance) that they cannot list colleagues or former managers at the company as references. Is that truly enforceable? I have many great colleagues who were laid off and who I want to see get a new job/help in any way I can, some of whom have spent the bulk of their career with our company. I get the background for the policy is that if someone gives a bad reference, the former employee could sue?

    2) My company puts on movies like once a month. This used to be an in-office thing (monthly lunch social with usually a disney movie on) but now is happening virtually. It’s weird. I think it’s weird at least.

    1. Choggy*

      Really, someone can sue a company for a bad reference if it was provided from a *former* employee? Or even if it was supplied by a current employee? If so, that would make sense why we got rave reviews for the worst employee on my team from his former manager!

      1. dorothyparker*

        That’s what I was told was the reasoning for not allowing references to come from managers but from HR directly confirming years worked.

        1. JustaTech*

          I think a lot of places ask for that, and the way you get around it is by using a personal e-mail/phone number and not taking a reference call during working hours. It’s a question that’s come up around here before and I think most people have found a work-around.

    2. JustaTech*

      2- Are the movies mandatory/expected? If so, yes it’s weird (unless you work in a film-related industry) and I personally would *hate* it.
      But if it’s just a thing that people do, I think it’s not that weird. A couple of years ago my office showed Rouge One in the big conference room for May 4th (ha ha, Star Wars joke) and there was popcorn and movie candy and people wandered in and out as they had time/inclination. Disney movies might be a *little* odd, but then again if you’d said Pixar I wouldn’t think anything of it.

      Basically, it’s not *common* but it’s not weird as in “out of bounds”.

    3. PollyQ*

      1) The exit agreement is a contract, so you’re bound by it, but other employees aren’t. However, if you’re still working for the company, then they could fire you if they found out you gave a reference.

      2) ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I don’t think it’s that weird. It’s a little, fun morale booster. As long as no one’s giving you any grief about not going, I don’t see any problem at all with it.

    4. Deborah*

      My friends have a standing “bad movie” night, and during the pandemic we’ve done it virtually. It seemed weird but as I’ve gotten more lonely as time has gone on, I’ve really come to value it. But it’s a bit different to get an adult beverage (LOL) and watch a terrible movie and laugh about it with really good friends over Discord, possibly.

  56. TheBeanMustMoveOn*

    Do any of you have/use your Employee Assistance Program? I know Allison has talked about them in some of her responses. But I am nervous to do so because there is a lot of shame around mental health, and I just don’t trust that they are as confidential as they claim to be. Am I off base? Are there ways to suss out whether its a good EAP or a bad one?

    1. Manders*

      I’ve used my husband’s EAP to find a counselor for a personal issue. It was a completely separate company that worked as a referral service to local therapists–I don’t think they shared any information at all with his employer about me.

      I will say that I wasn’t all that impressed with the therapists they found for me. Even though I’m in a huge city, their pool of available therapists was tiny and the one they referred me to ended up forgetting our appointment and locking me out of his office. I had much better luck going through my own insurance (which should be equally confidential).

      1. JustaTech*

        I did this also, when my insurance was utterly useless (at least one therapist on their list had died years before!). It was through an outside program and it worked fine for what I needed. Not the best therapist I’ve ever had, but fine.

    2. Mr. Cajun2core*

      I had one at a previous job and I have one here. I used the one at the previous job. I do not believe that anyone I worked with knew that I used it. The one at the current job is with a contract through an outside vendor. I have not used it.

      If the EAP supplier is someone outside of your company, I would think it would be fairly safe. Further, I know ours also does much more than just straight forward mental health. They also provide some fiscal advice, parenting classes/advice, etc. Especially if yours does more than just straight forward mental health, I it would be safe because who is to say that you aren’t going for some fiscal advice.

    3. Paris Geller*

      I have not used my current one, but I have in the past. I also have work friends who have used it (and I only know because they confided in me). Most of the time the EAP assistance isn’t done directly through the company but through an outside agency (my organization partners with a large family therapy clinic), so the most info anyone in the organization has is that employee relations knows if you’ve used all your EAP visits for the fiscal year, but that’s it.

    4. Historic Hamlet Dweller*

      Honestly, we buy into an EAP policy for our staff, and we get basic utilisation stats but that’s it. We have absolutely no way to find out anything more than that, and it’s great.

    5. AlexandrinaVictoria*

      My EAP was a lifesaver….literally. I spoke to someone when I was in crisis, they talked me off the ledge, so to speak, and were very helpful in finding a therapist that took my insurance, participated in telehealth, and had an immediate opening. Your call will be confidential. It’s a great benefit, please don’t be afraid to use it.

    6. Littorally*

      I have used mine in the past, and it was confidential. I spoke with someone at the EAP (which was through my health insurance) who gave me a code to give to the therapist when I set up my appointment so that they will bill to the EAP instead of the regular insurance.

      The EAP person asked me for a brief description of the issue I was seeking help for — I just told them “I’m having a tough time emotionally and want some help” and didn’t go into any detail. I think they probably put it down as depression.

      The EAP made recommendations for therapists for me, but I didn’t find the recommendation that good. I would say, look for the therapist first and then check with the EAP to see if they’re participants in the program.

    7. Say It Ain't So*

      We have an EAP (our company actually owns our own EAP). I have used them, as has at least one other person in my department, and have never had any issues about privacy. I believe EAPs are generally subject to HIPAA (health insurance portability and accountability act) and therefore federally required to ensure confidentiality – if the employee voluntarily seeks EAP assistance. (I believe it differs if the employer mandates the EAP for the employee.)

    8. T. Boone Pickens*

      At OldJob, I used the employer provided EAP. They were very discreet and the setup was very similar to what Littorally described.

    9. PollyQ*

      Not any kind of expert, but a quick google strongly suggests that EAPs are bound by HIPAA, which means that it’s illegal for them to give any medical info to your employer. I wouldn’t worry that they’d be more likely to pass info back to your company than any other medical provider. (Which is to say, highly unlikely!)

    10. peachy*

      I used to work at an EAP, so I’m pretty cynical about them. However, they are pretty confidential. They follow HIPAA and everyone is trained on following HIPAA guidelines. Your employer probably gets utilization reports, which just includes very high-level numbers of how many employees used services that month.

      But, I personally don’t think they’re all that helpful. The company I worked didn’t actually help people who called in. They’d screen the caller to make sure they weren’t experiencing a mental-health crisis at the moment, and then just give them a referral to a therapist in their area. I’ve heard the therapists aren’t the best, mostly because the company paid such low reimbursement rates.

      But the good thing about them is that you get a certain number of sessions free, so if your health insurance won’t cover therapy, it can be a decent option to get some free therapy.

    11. Kate*

      After a friend spoke glowingly of his wonderful EAP experience, I tried it at a time when I was so burned out I was having a hard time facing each morning. The arrangement was three one-hour sessions for free with someone close to my home whom our EAP recommended. I could schedule around work hours so there was no need to explain a time-off request. As it happened I did not share my friend’s enthusiasm; the fellow was pretty awful. I could have called EAP and told them that he wasn’t a good match for me and they would have given me a different referral. But it had started to feel like I’d added another problem to my already full plate, so I just dropped out. I am confident that no one ever knew that I had been involved with EAP so stigma wasn’t an issue. So nothing gained but nothing lost either.

    12. allathian*

      I’m not in the US but my employer has a similar system. I used ours when I was near burned out. My then-boss recommended it, and because she was very open about having used it herself in the past and how much it helped her, I knew I wouldn’t face any issues if I did go. I clicked really well with the therapist and feel that the 5 sessions provided by my employer really helped a lot. My employer is a large one and HR only gets the overall numbers, so I felt safe doing it.

  57. do I have to fire my contractor*

    When do you draw a line that a contractor isn’t working out? They are trying so hard and if I put a lot of effort they might be able to improve. I have done a lot already to help them but they have missed deadlines, direct requests etc. But they also seem to be improving just a bit. They seem stressed out, understandably. I’ve had many conversations already with them. I am actually not sure I can find somebody else who comes in straight with the skillset I need, but I feel like I could find somebody better prepared than the one I did hire. The contractor is, however, trying, and I feel really bad. I am unfortunately vacillating between being highly irritated that they can’t accomplish simple tasks, and blaming myself that I’m not giving them enough guidance – but I don’t have the time. What is the recommended thought-process before deciding we have to hire somebody else? I have in the past fired people, and I really hate it. Obviously it’s part of the job, but I was given the chance to hire a contractor to reduce, not increase my stress. What am I supposed to do?

    1. Nela*

      Maybe I have the wrong impression, but I’d expect that contractors come into the role with all the necessary skills (and they only need to learn industry specific if there are any), and employees can be coached and trained because they’ll hopefully remain in the role long-term, so the time investment is justified. The contractor may have underestimated the requirements of the role and is flailing now. I don’t think you owe them so much patience. They’re clearly not a good fit.

    2. RagingADHD*

      You are way too emotionally invested in this contractor. If they are bringing their stress and struggle into your conversations, you have already allowed way too much blurring of lines here. It’s not doing you or them any favors.

      Formulate a brightline on their performance. You don’t need to see them trying. You need results. That is what contracting is about.

      Think about what concrete results you need delivered, and when. Check the terms of the contract. Tell them clearly that the contract will not be extended without those results.

      How they get it done is their own business. Give them space to handle it, or not, on their own. It’s actually far less stressful to have a “do or do not” in front of you, than it is to constantly demonstrate how hard you’re trying.

      You’ll be doing both of you a favor.

    3. AcademiaNut*

      They’re not doing the job you hired them for, you’ve provided feedback and they haven’t improved – for a contractor, that means that you need to let them go and find someone else.

      If they were an employee, it would be a different situation, and part of your job as manager would be to help train and mentor them. With a contractor, you should be hiring someone who is competent at the job, and is essentially managing themselves. Your role would be to provide clear communication about the work that needs to be done and the resources that are needed from your end, but you should not be expected to coach them on basic job tasks, or nag them about deadlines and tasks.

      But even with an employee – you’d be at the point where you’d be putting them on a PIP with the expectation that if their performance didn’t significantly improve, they’d be transitioned out. If they were trying hard but failing, it might be with a transition period rather than an outright firing, but you’d still need to let them go.

  58. MedievalProf*

    Hi there, O wonderful commentariat! I am wondering if any of you have experience with career coaching and if so, how you went about finding a good one. My husband, who works in the realm of mechanical engineering/machine prototyping, is looking for more direction in his career and I think coaching could be a good first step. Thanks in advance!

    1. Haha Lala*

      Is he a part of any engineering societies? Look into ASME, and I know there a bunch of others. If he can connect with some other professionals in his field they might have the best advice for him.

    2. Job Seeker*

      The International Coaching Federation used to have a great search function on their website – I assume they still do. People listed there have been certified by the Federation. (Coaching is still a very widely unregulated industry, but I feel like at least if they’ve had some training and certification, that’s something.)

  59. Manager Maybe*

    Help, Ask A Manager crew!

    I have an interview for an internal promotion in a week’s time. Only two of us are being interviewed. It would be three grades up for me and two grades up for the other person, and would make one of us the head of department.

    I have lots of leadership and operational examples from a previous role at the same level I’m at now (but a smaller organisation, so I had much more autonomy and comparative influence.) I’ve twelve years’ experience in this field at four different organisations. I’ve taught and coached on leadership and management. But I’ve no direct line management experience.

    The other person has line management experience (she currently line manages), but less specialist knowledge, no professional qualification, and this is her only role in this sector. We are really closely matched!

    I’ve been SO frustrated with the way our department’s been run since about three months after we started, and I really want this job! How do I shine? Should I address my lack of line management experience head on? What sort of things would convince you I was ready for this challenge?

    1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I’m curious about what that would mean in practice (for either of you). Would the successful candidate be the boss / grandboss of your current bosses?

      1. Manager Maybe*

        lol, no, at the moment there is nobody in the gap between us and the person who is FIVE grades above me!

        This is not how this is supposed to work: usually there’s no more than a 1-2 grade gap between someone and their line manager. The last two years have been fairly ridiculous–first our Boss A resigned, then four weeks later Grandboss B resigned, then we got moved into a new department and came under Boss C and Grandboss D. Boss C resigned, and then Grandboss D did. It took them 8 months to find a new Grandboss, and they have tried twice to recruit externally to Boss position, but not found anyone, which is why they’ve decided to offer it internally.

        For most of last year, we theoretically reported directly to the C-suite except they obviously had quite a lot of other stuff to be getting on with so we just did our own thing and made all decisions by consensus (which tbh was 90% great and 10% stressful–we joked about how we were turning into an anarcho-syndicalist commune and how would we ever go back to normal line-management.)

        Anyway, it seemed worth hanging in there because CLEARLY at some point a leadership opportunity was going to come up–and it did! Now I just have to bag it. :)

  60. inexperienced*

    What is the best way to spin it when you don’t have the exact experience a job asks for?

    My current job is okay, but the way they’ve handled the pandemic has me looking for something else. A contact reached out with a job that is exactly in line with what I’m currently studying for. I don’t have all the years of experience they want, and some of my skills have come only from school and not work. If I’m lucky enough to get an interview, what’s the best way to address the fact that I’m likely behind other candidates in terms of experience?

    1. Forrest*

      “Years experience” are usually a proxy: “one or two years experience” means “we don’t want someone with no idea what they’re doing and no understanding of our work”; “3-5 years” means “someone who has really nailed all the basics and can contribute independently at a professional level” “10+ years experience” means someone who can lead and think strategically.

      Assuming they’re looking for 1-2 years, then I wouldn’t address it specifically: they’re probably not so interested in the specifics of whether candidates have exactly 12-24 months in work and more interested in the fact that you’re not a total n00b! The way you demonstrate that is by showing that you are starting to understand the field, are ready to learn, and are thinking about how your role impacts on the wider organisation and contributes to the central mission. That means things like demonstrating commercial awareness, using the language that people in that sector use, some awareness of things like legislation, initiatives, developments in the field.

      Good luck!

      1. irene adler*

        Yes this!

        And don’t assume the other candidates have this level of experience. It may turn out that is the least important criteria they are looking for.
        Sell ’em on what you do have – not what you don’t (See Forrest’s second paragraph. It is the perfect way to address a lack of experience. )

    2. Job Seeker*

      Go ahead and apply! It is actually unlikely that they’ll ask you to defend your years of experience in an interview. And anyway, your school skills might count for quite a bit (it’s hard to know without knowing details). There has been research done that women tend to only apply for jobs when they meet 100% of the requirements, whereas men tend to apply when they meet something like 60% of the requirements. The point is that it might surprise you to know that some people feel fine about applying even though they don’t have 100% of the qualifications – and it’s actually OK to do that. (With some exceptions – for instance, if the job needs you to have a law degree and have passed the bar to represent clients, then you gotta have those things.) P.S. I’ve been in HR for over 10 years.

  61. Twisted Lion*

    Im just here to complain that a coworker that retired and was a hoarder. She left nail clippings in a drawer and 45 bag twist ties and all sorts of junk I have to sort. Worst part was she wasnt even doing her job so all sorts of tasks are missing or not completed. And she printed every single email she ever got.

    So YAY. Thanks for listening to my vent

    2. Choggy*

      I REALLY wish those who were not fired would be made to clean out their own desks. I cleaned out the cubicle of a guy who was fired (this was a couple of years ago), because I did not think the next person should have to deal with it, 15 years worth of papers, and accumulated junk. I was barely thanked for my efforts (actually my manager thanked my team in a meeting but no one except me did any cleaning). Yet another thankless job I will never do again. Really trying to grasp the concept of “not my job/problem to solve”.

      1. lobsterbot*

        We had to clean out the desk of a woman who went out on medical leave and never came back. She had so much random junk in there: dozens of meal replacement bars of different varieties, half a dozen pairs of shoes, cosmetics, two small fish tanks, etc. It filled two copier paper boxes that were each almost too heavy to life. She had only been at the job for less than a year.

    3. Paris Geller*

      Ew on the clippings. I do relate to the papers. When I inherited my workspace apparently nobody had bothered to clean it out from the 90’s. There were yes, printed emails (the oldest I found was from 1996) and multiple floppy discs, despite the fact I knew at least 3 other people had used the workspace between 2000 and when I was hired in 2018.

    4. SomebodyElse*

      You should work for my company, at one office they seem to turn offices of the departed into shrines or time capsules. Never to be used again, just locked and admired from afar!

      They’re getting better at it, now when someone leaves if I want the office for someone on my team, I just start moving stuff myself until someone freaks out about confidentiality and does themselves, because 20 yo expense reports are the stuff of spy movies. (Yes I’m eyerolling)

      Paper is the bane of my existence, I’ve largely gone paper free, but have some relics of my own in my office. If I ever see it again it does need a good purging.

    5. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      I ALSO inherited a desk that had a drawer filled with nail clippings! Beyond disgusting, and I am a nailbiter myself. When I left (after five years there) I told my secretary to make sure the next person who sat there knew the clippings weren’t from me!

    7. Juneybug*

      I moved into an office where it had been vacant for 3 months (management was so glad to see me on my first day). The previous staff member had left food and trash throughout the office – desk, cabinet, under the desk, etc. As I removed the moldy sandwich from the drawer, my new boss said, “oh, that is where the smell was coming from!” I spent my first day at working cleaning an office that should have been cleaned out. The only good thing about that action was my new boss knew I was a hard worker and not afraid to get my hands dirty.

  62. Hei Hei, the Chicken from Moana*

    How important is it to look and be engaged in a smaller meeting? I have two colleagues who are kind of Eeyores and it bugs me and makes me feel like I need to pipe up/keep things moving (I’m second in seniority in this group). I don’t know if this is a thing or not? AITA???

    1. Who moved my cheese?*

      I don’t understand how “look and be engaged in a smaller meeting” is related to “kind of Eeyores” (they are generally negative? they shoot down ideas? they mope around and don’t engage?) or is related to your feeling of needing to keep things moving. Can you explain the conflict more? Why do you feel like an a-hole?

      Generally:
      – The meeting should have an agenda and be well-facilitated to keep things moving. It should be clear who is facilitating from the get-go
      – You should only be in meetings you “need” to be in, so you should be engaging when needed
      – Distraction isn’t a great look, and people should avoid being obviously distracted during any meeting unless there is an unexpected crisis or necessary interruption

      1. Hei Hei, the Chicken from Moana*

        I posted this way too quickly – thanks for responding. I feel like they bring down the whole vibe of the meeting, of the atmosphere. Like they have bad attitudes. One person and our supervisor have had issues in the past as their styles are totally different, and I think part of that is due to my colleague seeming disengaged. Again, her work is good. I feel like they should be…trying harder? To be pleasant? That’s what makes me feel like the asshole.

        1. Who moved my cheese?*

          Hmm this meshes a few issues into one. It might help to unpack:

          – Your feelings. Generally you can have whatever feelings you want. Having a feeling does not usually make you an a-hole. What you do about it could. Feeling someone should be more pleasant and engaged in meetings is, in a vacuum, fine.

          – Your actions. Whether you’re TA depends on what you’re actually doing, and whether you need to be doing it. Are you backseat facilitating when someone else is running a meeting (even if they’re allowing it to run off-course)? Are you overstepping your authority in trying to manage your coworker? Are you minimizing your coworkers’ legitimate disagreements? Is piping up getting you the results you need? What results DO you need, and what’s the best way to get there?

          – Your coworkers’ actions. Is it just annoying or awkward, or is it disruptive and preventing you from getting what you need out of the meeting? If it’s just not aligned with your feelings of how it Should Be (more pleasant and engaged), but it’s not causing issues for your work, yeah, you need to move on. If it’s creating work problems for you, you can address those.

    2. Filosofickle*

      Personally, I believe it’s important to look engaged in meetings (live or online) and workshops/classes. I see it as part of my job — like when Alison says part of being a good employee is being pleasant to work with — and from experience I have empathy for any speaker/teacher/leader talking to a dead audience! That sucks. The more disengaged the room looks, the more I feel like I have to look bright, engaged, like I’m actively listening so the leader has at least one person giving them back energy.

      However, I know I take on that responsibility more than most. While it annoys me when others don’t do the same, I don’t control them. I do the right thing and contribute positively, and that’s all I can do.

    3. allathian*

      It may simply be a case of Zoom fatigue, yet another useless meeting they have to attend but would rather skip.
      What’s the purpose of these meetings? Do they really need to be there? Has this been an issue in the past or is it a new development?
      Sure, people should preferably be engaged in any meeting they attend, but if they aren’t, it’s hardly a fireable offense. If she does good work otherwise and you’d just like her to smile more in meetings, yeah, I think you’re out of line.

  63. indigo64*

    I have a satisfying [former] colleague story to share:

    I had a colleague who I originally considered a friend, but our relationship soured as she grew dissatisfied with her job. She complained about everything- our coworkers, our boss, every decision made by upper management. It was exhausting. I ignored all of her IMs and text messages, but just seeing the messages come through wore on me, and I’m sure she complained about me to others. She finally left for a new job in August, to my great relief. Since she started the new job, she texts me non-stop about how great the new place is, how she can’t believe I’m still working here, on and on. I love my job, and it has its challenges (don’t all jobs?) I still think it’s a great place to be, especially with how they’ve handled COVID.

    Well this morning, after 3 weeks of radio silence, she sent me a long list of complaints about the new place. Coworkers she can’t stand, policies she disagrees with- almost verbatim what she used to say about her old job. Quelle surprise! There’s something really validating about knowing the toxicity is all her, and that’s her problem, not mine.

    1. T. Boone Pickens*

      That is a good way to wrap it up. This person seems like a perfect candidate for number blocking. Is there any particular reason you haven’t done so already? They seem exhausting.

    2. tangerineRose*

      I know someone like that too. At first, everything is rainbows and unicorns, then it’s suddenly horrible.

    3. allathian*

      Why are you still in contact with her? Now that you’ve received validation for your feeling that she’s the problem, why not block her number?

  64. Myrtle*

    Has anyone had experiences, good or bad, being open with work about fertility treatments? I have secondary infertility due to severe endometriosis and I’m going to have surgery and (likely) fertility treatments in the next year. In addition to the time off for surgery this is going to result in a lot of doctors appointments for me. My job is very flexible and it shouldn’t be a problem to take the time although I’ll have to let my boss know.

    My approach has always been to be very vague about medical issues at work, because discrimination and judgement are real things and it’s also just none of their business, but I am actually considering being open with my boss this time. He’s an amazing guy – truly one of the nicest most genuine people I have ever met – and I feel confident he would be supportive. I’m also thinking I’ll feel weird telling him I have appointment for appointment for a vague reasons and that constantly covering up what’s really going on might be stressful for me. On the other hand, I think maybe I should just play it safe and keep things private. If too much info about my situation gets out at work, I’m worried I might lose opportunities because people know I’m trying to get pregnant (and thus would be going on mat leave) and have a serious chronic illness. I don’t think my boss would be discriminatory himself or be purposefully indiscrete about my situation, but once it’s out there, it’s out there, you know? And then also there’s the weirdness of telling my male boss (who’s roughly my age) all about my ovaries…

    1. IchKriegDieKrise*

      When I was trying to get pregnant, I was fairly open about it at work. I needed one surgery (minor, out patient cyst removal) and had one round of IVF (I was very lucky – my two kids turned 4 two months ago). However, I work overseas in a country with many more employee protections (and protections for working parents), and in a job where promotion doesn’t exist (I teach language classes in higher ed.) So for me, I knew I couldn’t lose my job or have anything change regarding my contract… and it wouldn’t be something that could even subconciously affect my chances at promotion. So it may be worth being vague for you if these are even possible risks.

      I hope everything goes well with your surgery and treatments.

    2. AcademiaNut*

      I told my boss outright when we were doing fertility treatments and it was fine, and less stressful for me because I didn’t have to dance around why I suddenly had way more doctor’s appointments than usual. It also gave me the ability to work from home after embryo transfers – my job has a good deal of flexibility, but randomly deciding to work from home for a week is well outside the usual parameters.

      Some caveats – I work in an area with government mandated maternity leave, and am in a fairly stable job. And my supervisor has a track record of being reasonable about stuff like this – a colleague discovered she was pregnant between accepting the job and starting work, and it affected some job duties (which can’t be done while pregnant, for safety reasons), and it was not an issue.

    3. Shiner*

      I’m a big proponent of keeping my medical stuff as private as possible. I did not tell my boss when I did IVF. All of my appointments were very early in the morning so it didn’t affect work. For the egg retrieval, I just called out sick that morning. The transfer is usually scheduled a week or two in advance so I was able to schedule a day off for that. And then I hid my pregnancy until 22 weeks when I needed to switch to maternity clothes.
      I was also lucky and got pregnant immediately but honestly, ivf can be emotionally grueling and I really did not want the added pressure of other people knowing about the process and their wondering if it worked.

    4. Roci*

      Even if your boss is super supportive, personally I just don’t think that’s the kind of thing you share with your boss or most coworkers. You don’t normally share anything about “trying to have a baby” with people who are not close friends or family. Or medical issues, for that matter. And once you tell him once, it’s hard to walk that back and not update them when the situation changes.

      Maybe think about it from his perspective–what about your situation re:work would be helpful or actionable for him? You’re dealing with a medical issue with lots of doctors appointments and possibly time out for surgery and you might be stressed and distracted at work. That seems to cover it for me.

      Good luck with your journey!

  65. Choggy*

    Looking for suggestions for an office lamp. I am now working 100% from home and my office in the basement which has a drop ceiling with (ugh) fluorescent lights. There are no windows for any natural light to come in, and it’s too dark if I turn the overheads off and just have my monitors on. I’d like to get a natural light lamp that offers sufficient light so I can see things around me but is not too bright. I was thinking one of those lights they market for SAD might work but not sure.

    Thanks!

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      The medical SAD lights can wreak havoc on your body’s natural rhythms if you use them for more than recommended – I forget the exact time frame, but the recommendation is something like 30-45 minutes a day. They’re definitely not intended for use like a regular light all day long.

    2. Middle Manager*

      My experience with the SAD lights is that they are actually extremely bright. I had to stop using because they were triggering migraines. I don’t have exact recommendations, but would suggest something softer.

    3. Toothless*

      I got one of the SAD lights and keep it pointed away from my face and that’s worked okay as a desk lamp so far. I would not recommend the particular one I got, though – the light comes from a rectangle on the front and all the buttons are right next to it, so you can’t press any of the buttons to turn it on/off or change the brightness without looking directly at the light and scalding your eyeballs.

    4. D3*

      Start with a desk lamp or two with a daylight bulb. Less disruptive than the intense medical lamps, but daylight balanced so you don’t get that yellowy look.
      And definitely take a walk at lunch if at all possible!

    6. The Rural Juror*

      One thing that helped in my office (that has no windows) was replacing the fluorescent bulbs with a warmer color temperature. I bought 3000k I believe. It makes a big difference to me that they’re not as “blue” in the tone of the color. Also, I experimented with 1 bulb, 2 bulbs, or all 3 bulbs, and decided I actually like having 2 bulbs in the ceiling light and a desk lamp for tasks that require more light at the desk surface.

      Other people in my company would walk by office and comment about how warm it looked. Then others started switching out their bulbs, too. Not everyone, but some. It was nice to be able to figure out our preferences.

  66. JobSearcher*

    I’m in my first official job search post-college and I just needed to ask if this behavior is normal? I applied to a paid internship position with a company I found really interesting. I went through two interviews (met with 3 people in total) and also submitted a multi-day writing assessment. I was told at my second interview with an office administrator on Dec 17 that I would hear back with a decision before Christmas. I haven’t heard back at all. I reached out on Monday to ask for any updates and still crickets. I’m used to being ghosted by companies I apply to and don’t interview with but am a bit surprised and upset that after two interviews and an assessment this company couldn’t even send me a courtesy rejection. Should I have expected this?

    1. Paris Geller*

      Not normal. I’ve never been ghosted anywhere I interviewed with. Two interviews and a multi-day writing assessment should definitely be given a courtesy rejection by phone or email.

    2. Forrest*

      No! Very normal not to hear back after a written application; extremely bad form not to hear back after an interview or screening call.

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I don’t think you should have expected it, but it’s still surprisingly common. I once traveled 6 hours round trip, in the snow, for an in-person interview with HR and the hiring manager (following a HR phone screen) and still never heard back.

      On the other hand, try to take hiring timelines with a huge grain of salt, especially around the holidays. I tend to think of the two weeks around Christmas and New Year as lost time anyway, so if you interviewed on the 17th it’s really only been like a week of “real” work time. Try to relax and put it out of your mind, and if they get back to you, great!

      1. Colette*

        Yeah, I agree. A lot of people were off last week, so they’ve spent this week getting back up to speed.

    4. Malarkey01*

      Honestly with Christmas, New Years, and the absolute dumpster fire the first week of 2021 has been, I don’t think you’ve been ghosted yet. If the office shutdown, or was extremely short staffed, over the holidays I’d assume they missed the Christmas date, were out until the 4th, were catching up for a few days, and then Wednesday happened. I’d give it at least another week and then send a nice follow up.

        1. Malarkey01*

          Ha! It’s only been 14! You added on a whole other week- today is a week from New Years Day. We’re all living in some matrix!

      2. RagingADHD*

        This.

        Lots of places are in limbo over the holidays, and if they had a key person get sick or something, it could hold everything up.

    5. tiny cactus*

      I wouldn’t assume you’ve been ghosted yet. It’s frustrating that they haven’t gotten back to you, but this is a difficult time of year for scheduling, and I bet some of the decision-makers have been too busy preparing for their holidays/taking their holidays/catching up after their holidays to get back to you yet. They might also be caught in that “waiting to follow up because I’m expecting to have a concrete answer really soon” limbo.

      The really annoying thing about job searching is that it tends to be a really high priority for the candidate, but a much lower priority for those who are doing the hiring, because they are often trying to do it on top of the rest of their job.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        Yeah – two weeks later than predicted is not at all unusual in hiring, even without the Christmas/New Year’s/pandemic/dumpster fire complications. One person off sick before Christmas could throw the whole thing off.

        The other possibility is that they’ve made a first round of offers, are waiting for the decisions, and haven’t rejected you because you’re still in the running if some first round people turn it down.

  67. antigone_ks*

    Just need to vent. Communication issues in higher ed:

    • I was scheduled to teach an online, 16-week class. When I ran into an issue setting due dates, I was informed that it’s now an 8-week class. It’s the Friday before classes start, and while I can adjust the class, I need more than 1 business day to do it.

    • We were told in an email last night that all zoom lectures need to be run through Canvas (the online learning system). Again, I can do that, but it would have been nice to know before we all set up meetings through the Zoom app.

    • Department Chair found that administration had added two 8-week English classes without telling him, so he had less than a week to find instructors. One of them is a developmental class, which shouldn’t be online in the first place, and administration has decided to give it to an adjunct and also allow 57 students to enroll. In an 8-week, online, REMEDIAL writing class.

    1. reject187*

      I understand completely. Education just runs like that unfortunately. I’m sorry you’re stuck with these crappy decisions. You can do it!

      1. antigone_ks*

        It’s not the decisions, necessarily, but the lack of communication. When the department chair gets blindsided about how many classes are on the schedule, that’s pretty bad. We have a new president (starting year 2) and it’s just been like this since he arrived. Thanks for your good thoughts!

    2. deesse877*

      Just validating that this is not normal, and in a higher ed context especially burdensome. The developmental class is straight-up unethical too. On the bright side: dysfunction this extreme likely means no effective oversight!

  68. Áine*

    Hi, all. Longtime reader, first-time commenter, etc. I wanted to pass along a thank-you to Alison and the many commenters here who have given such good advice over the years on interviewing, cover letters, resumes, etc. I just accepted a job offer I’m pretty excited about, and I know tips I picked up from this site over the years gave me a little extra edge.

    AAM: Come for the trainwreck stories, stay for the incredibly useful advice.

  69. Burnt out manager*

    I’d love some advice on how to talk to my boss – he wants to discuss my “organizational skills” this afternoon. This is something he also talked to me about the day before we left on Christmas holiday – I don’t organize things the way he wants me to, and he wants me to use different processes. The problem is that the thing he wants to discuss is something that we discussed then, and I have been on holiday since then until yesterday. My first day back was a barrage of meetings and emails and I haven’t really had any time to do actual WORK.

    The assignment he wants to talk to me about was completed by my direct report in December, but my she didn’t send it to me, just casually mentioned that it was done, so it did not end up in my items to review. (This is not our normal process and I’m not sure why she handled it that way. I’ve asked her to please follow process from now on, which is to send things to me directly). There was a LOT going on before break, and this particular assignment is not due till next week, but boss is really worked up about it. I’d love some advice on how to approach it without seeming like I’m passing the blame off on someone else. But at the same time, this isn’t exactly an emergency and I don’t understand the urgency.

      1. Burnt out manager*

        She said she didn’t know that was the process. But I’m honestly not sure how that’s possible.

        1. pyewacket*

          So I think what you are saying, boss isn’t upset at the actual contents of the assignment but the fact the direct report emailed him directly. If this is the case go with the facts and in that type of tone. Yes direct report did not follow protocol and once I became aware I followed up with them to make sure there they understood the policy. I appreciate you telling me right away. Are you concerned with other breaches to policy I’m not aware of? Not knowing your boss I don’t know how they will respond. Keeping calm and not feeling like you have to have a solution right away is the best. I appreciate you telling me this but I need to investigate this can we reschedule a meeting when I have all the information?

          But then I would definitely circle back around to the direct report and really make sure they know this process. If you have a written standard procedure I would have them reread it plus a chance to ask questions . Then either have a training document that says they understand with signature or an email confirmation that you can file. Lastly keep an eye on them for other red flags.

          1. Burnt out manager*

            The problem is direct report completed it but never sent it to anyone – she saved it in a folder and said it was done, but our protocol is to send actual documents that our admin keeps track of. Because she didn’t send it, admin didn’t track it (she also didn’t tell admin it was done), and it fell off everyone’s plate. Boss got all upset thinking it didn’t get done, when really it’s been done for a month, and not due till next week.

            1. pyewacket*

              Unless your boss is truly unreasonable stating the facts and it was a mistake (give direct report the benefit of the doubt once), telling how mistake was handled and that the policy is understood moving forward. This isn’t throwing anyone under the bus and you as manager are taking the appropriate responsibility by fixing it.

  70. How To Quit & Still Be Friends?*

    I’m really liking my current job where my boss is super sweet, my coworkers are amazing, and I get to work from home most of the time! However, I never intended to stay here forever since my current responsibilities (recruiting for a small company) are not what I want to do long-term even though I thought I originally wanted to. So for the past few months, I’ve been considering what to do for my next step in my career and have been attending virtual coffee meetings and networking events in fields that I’m possibly interested in, by learning from professionals in the field.

    One thing lead to another with networking and I was offered a short temp job with an industry that I’m really interested in. I’m lucky enough that I have a small cushion to rely on so I’m planning on quitting my current position in a few months once the short temp job starts (it’s summer oriented), working at the temp job, and then job searching to find a part-time position that I can work at while possibly going back to school for another degree.

    However, I’m not sure how to break the news to my boss later on? I’m tempted to say that I’m quitting to focus on myself so I don’t possibly offend my boss because I’m sure it must be irksome to hear that a former employee only kept working with you to wait for another opportunity to open up. So not sure if I should mention my temp positions or not? My boss and I are pretty close so I’m sure she’ll ask me directly about why I’m leaving. And if I had kept my joy for recruiting, I’d stay! But alas, I’m ready to move on even though I haven’t been here for too long. Is there any way I can keep my relationship with my boss and have her as a reference?

  71. reject187*

    Hi! I’m a teacher who’s trying to get back into the substituting game (I know, weird timing for it) and I’m having trouble with how to indicate on my application that I didn’t have a supervisor during my last stint of substituting. I worked as a sub in three different districts and chose all my assignments through an online program. I was easily in a different school every day, and there were over 50 schools I could choose from. The only people in the district office I ever actually dealt with were the payroll people, and I guarantee no one remembers me as a sub from 7 years ago. When the application asks if they can contact my supervisor from this job, I don’t know if I should say yes or no – because I don’t know who that would be!

    The other problem I have is how to list three sub jobs I was doing at the same time on my resume. I’ve decided to just list one district that’s the most recognizable, but I was also subbing at another nearby district and a charter school. If I list them all separately, it’s the same tasks and accomplishments for each, but leaving two of them off doesn’t seem totally correct either.

    Any advice is welcome!

    1. Colette*

      Can you list all 3 with the same section:
      Substitute teacher
      District 1
      District 2
      School 3
      …

        1. reject187*

          unfortunately, I sub for just about as many teachers as I had positions. There was one teacher who liked me well enough that he wanted to request me for his paternity leave, but at that point I had gotten a full-time teaching position. It’s been 6 years since I’ve lived in that state much less subbed for anyone there, so I’m sure no one would remember me.

          1. Colette*

            That would be the teacher I’d ask, then. (He might say no, since it’s been a while, but he might remember you and say yes.)

      2. reject187*

        Oh, that’s a good point. I thought of it before, but I thought it would look bad, but I think I could make it work like that!

  72. A mere peon*

    I’ve reached as high as I could go in my current position & I’m waiting after having 2 rounds of interview for a government position. I really, really, really want this job and it’s a perfect fit for all of the reasons, but it’s so competitive & there’s no chance I’ll get it. I’ve interviewed for similar before more times to count & I’ve always been the runner-up. At this point in my life, it’s incredibly frustrating.

  73. Nicki Name*

    I have a couple of cushions on my work table for my feline coworkers. This mostly keeps them off my keyboard but I still sometimes have to deal with tails or stretched-out legs encroaching on it. Can someone recommend a place to get a couple small, shallow boxes I can put the cushions in, to keep all the cat limbs out of my way?

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Amazon or other packing boxes are great for cats ;P Although, in my experience they don’t respect the laws of containers and will continue draping their appendages wherever they see fit.

    2. Lyudie*

      They might be bigger than you want (and maybe shallower), but maybe the boxes used for cases of canned goods/bottled drinks etc. would work? I imagine Costco and such would give them to you if you asked.

      1. Nicki Name*

        We get those when we buy specialized cat food by the flat (one of ours has food allergies) but I’m looking for something with higher sides.

    3. violet04*

      Any regular cardboard would work. I left out a random Amazon box and it was right next to a soft, fluffy bed and the cats choose the box %100 of the time. If you want something better looking, you could look for decorative storage boxes or baskets in the home decor section.

      1. Nicki Name*

        The problem is finding one with sides the right height– high enough to contain the cat, low enough that it doesn’t block my monitors. Hmm, home decor section hadn’t occurred to me…

    4. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I bought a couple of high-sided pet beds from Amazon, and that usually suffices to keep my nosy cats out of the way.

    5. The Rural Juror*

      This time of year, you may be able to go to Michael’s or Hobby Lobby and find some gift boxes on clearance. My sis-in-law loves buying the sturdier gift boxes because they last year after year (and they look nice…so she doesn’t usually “wrap” them, just puts an extra bow on top and a gift tag). If you need two “trays” then you’ll have the bottom portion and the top portion. Hopefully you can find on the right size! And with curbside pick up!

  74. August*

    Finally buckled down and suggested my manager go to HR after the 60th time she complained to me about my coworker’s behavior (i.e. routinely screaming during team meetings). She responded that she doesn’t have access to my coworker’s job description or performance standards (??), so she can’t mark down subjective issues like that in the upcoming performance review (???), so there’s nothing to be done (?????).

    Are all government jobs like this? Because this fits right in with every horror story I’ve ever heard, not sure if I want to include other government jobs in my ongoing search. Unbelieveable.

    1. Me*

      No this is not normal. At all. Government is weird in its way but in my almost 20 years I have never heard of a manager who doesn’t have access to a job description or performance standards nor the authority to get them. Sounds like you have a coworker and manager problem.

    2. Joielle*

      Uh no, that is definitely not normal for government jobs. It’s so weird that I have a hard time imagining your boss is telling you the whole truth (or maybe she’s VERY confused herself, or there’s an incompetent HR person telling her the wrong thing or something like that).

      I’ve worked in government jobs my whole career and have never had a horror story even close to that! (My biggest issues have been, like… austere office supplies and low per diems.)

    3. Ariadne Oliver*

      Sounds really like it’s a manager problem. For one, how can she manage or provide performance appraisals without either the job description or the performance standards? Secondly, she can contact her HR person and get them. So why hasn’t she? Thirdly, screaming during meetings and other behavioral issues will hardly be covered by either. Why she would need them for the purpose of counseling is not clear to me. Are you sure that she’s really a supervisor? If she is, she’s in urgent need of some supervisory training. So not normal.

  75. BusyBee*

    Happy new year! Looking for some advice. About a year ago I turned down a job offer: the gig was fine, but it wasnt the right time. However, the company recently reached out to see if I’d be interested in a similar role they have open and I am! I have to interview and they have to decide they still want me on board, but do you think this effects negotiations at all if they extend an offer? Ideally I want 5-10k more than I believe they are offering. Can I negotiate or, because I interviewed before, do I have less negotiating power? Thanks!

      1. BusyBee*

        Yeah, you’re probably right. I’m overthinking it since I know what the previous offer looked like. I feel like I’m saying “Well, the PRICE HAS GONE UP!” When in reality, I declined the previous offer before trying to negotiate so that initial salary shouldn’t have any relevance to this (potential) offer. I think?

        1. should i apply?*

          If they reached out to you, and you previously declined their offer, I think you are totally in the clear for asking for more money. There was no commitment on your part. If you don’t want to waste your or their time, just mention it up front. Something like “When we previously discussed this role the offer was X, for me to consider it would really need to be Y, is that feasible”

    2. PollyQ*

      Negotiate as usual. After all, you turned down that offer, so there’s no way they can say, “Well, it was good enough for you last year,” because it wasn’t. This is true even if your reasons, stated or unstated, were otherwise.

  76. GnomePunIntended*

    Hi! Wondering if anyone has any advice on asking your employer for money for grad school? I’ve been at the same company for 4.5 years and am starting an online masters in a couple months in a relevant degree to my field, so I’ll still be working full time & doing classes in the evening/weekend. My school does an up to $5k match for employer contributions, so I want to ask my bosses to either just straight up pay that (maybe as my bonus for 2020?) or to take $5k out of my salary for the next few months. I’m a hard worker & high performer and one of the longest termed employees at the company. Any tips, advice, or success stories?

    Added context – 2 years ago I moved cross country on my company’s request and they gave me a $5k moving bonus. No one I work with has ever worked while doing a non-Bachelors degree (interns) and one of my bosses wrote my rec letter.

    1. black bear booties*

      I have no advice, but just keep in mind that if your employer takes $X out of your salary, then any benefits that are a function of your salary get affected. The math may work out that you still want to do this, but benefits as a percentage of salary are easy to forget.

    2. pyewacket*

      You need to ask a couple of questions from your accountant, work and school because there is a lot of nuance here depending on your tax bracket, company and school. How does the school accept gift? Is this considered a tax deduction to your company because the school might be a nonprofit? General procedure. Talk to payroll and/or HR how they have handled a match in the past. Do they send match to school directly or give you the payment (I wouldn’t want this lumped in with a regular paycheck)? What are your tax ramifications? Is this considered income? If it is considered income what taxes if any are they withholding? If you are paying tuition via a deduction in your paycheck can it be pre-tax deduction?

      1. pyewacket*

        From 1996 to 1999 I worked as a full time bank teller and a company benefit was if you were a business, finance or accounting major they paid for all courses even gen eds. I was accounting at the time so when I received my tuition bill I sent it to my HR contact. Bill was paid directly. It also was not considered additional income for me so whatever taxes were withheld were correct.

        1. GnomePunIntended*

          This is really helpful, thank you! My company has never (to my knowledge) so I don’t think there’s a precedent for it, which makes me both more nervous & more hopeful.

    3. Girasol*

      Go to HR and find out what their policies are. I did that during a lull at work when I was bored. I started classes at a college about an hour away one night a week or one Saturday morning, or both when work was quiet enough that I could take on two classes at once. Until work picked up I could do my homework at my desk. It got a little busy when work ramped up just when I got a class with a ton of homework. But I stuck it out and I’m glad. I got a master’s degree. The company got their money back when I applied info I’d learned in class to a problem that no one else could solve, so they won too. I’d recommend the experience. There is one gotcha that you might keep in mind though: there may be rules stating that you have to complete a course that the company paid for or else pay the money back. So you may have to commit to finishing any course you sign up for.

  77. Not My Money*

    Docusign question! If I have 73 pages that need signatures, is there a function in DS that will tell me that I’ve placed 73 boxes?I was thrust into this program with no training and my 73 pages have different spots for the signature boxes so I can’t use the option of dropping them all in the same location. TIA!

    1. PollyQ*

      I don’t know the answer, but I bet if you google “Docusign how to make sure all signatures are filled” you will get an answer. You may need to tweak the search terms or click into a number of different sites, but I’ve solved much more obscure problems this way.

      1. Not My Money*

        I’ve googled many different things but most responses don’t speak to “did I hit every page BEFORE I sent it?” It’s always focused on the person signing, not the person tagging for signatures.

  78. Time Lord*

    Maybe I’m overthinking this but – how do you set up a meeting with your boss to talk about something important? I would like to transfer offices (keeping my same job title and basic duties – just out of a different office, and maybe I could even keep my same boss). I don’t have regular one-on-ones with my boss, so this would need to be a special (virtual) meeting request, and I can’t figure out what to put for the topic. Should I just come out and say I want to talk about relocating? Or something vague about “my next steps at Company”? When something needs to be discussed in person or on a call, it just seems weird to reveal the crux of the issue in an email beforehand. Any advice would be appreciated!

    2. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      Why not just send them an email with this info, and ending with “I’d like to set up a time to discuss this further…”?

    3. JanetM*

      I have never been a boss, but as an employee (and I realize this is on me, not my manager), I get very twitchy when I am asked to a meeting with no information about it. I also get twitchy when my manager pings me on Teams with “yt?” (“You there?”) It’s never a problem, but I feel my stomach lurch every time I see that.

      Tangential Anecdote: When I first started in the Project Management Office, it was a temp appointment. After a few months, it was made permanent. At that point, a meeting request showed up simply labeled, “Individual meeting.” I worried for days before asking one of the other PMs if this was something our manager often did and what it meant. Narrator voice: It was for a regular monthly 1:1 that he does with all his staff.

      So I would second Lunch Eating Mid Manager and send an email with this information. I’d probably use a subject line like, “Your Thoughts — possibility of relocating me to a different office,” include the rest of the information, and finish with, “When can we meet to talk about this?”

      That way your manager can gather their thoughts and maybe do some research in advance.

    4. Deborah*

      It might depend a lot on the culture of the organization. I currently need about 30 minutes of my grandboss’ time for a project, and the culture at my employer (which my boss helpfully explained) is that I just use Outlook to find a time that says available on each of our calendars and send a meeting invite. (The meeting would be me, my boss and my grandboss. He knows I need to talk to him, he’s just a VP and extremely busy, and apparently this is how it’s done.) At another place you might send an email telling them a little about what you want to talk about and asking when you could sit down and talk about it. Or at a really informal place, you might just walk over (call, I guess in remote times?) and say, “do you have a few minutes to talk about something?”

  79. Aerie*

    Anyone else feel like they might be hitting the apex of their career because of family obligations?

    I’ve had a steady streak of promotions in my career – in 12 years I’ve had a promotion on average every 18 months, and just hit two years in my current role (which was after getting a fast tracked promotions due to some rapidfire turnover – I’ve had four titles in five years in one company). I’m good at my job, but I’m not only married, but have a young child at home, on a team that’s mostly single without children. My manager works around the clock, and has absolutely praised how much work I’ve accomplished while balancing family and WFH.

    But here’s the thing: I don’t feel like I’ve “balanced”. I’ve worked early mornings almost every day, and late nights and weekends often enough that my toddler now gets upset if he sees me at my desk. So I’m really trying to break the habit of always being available and working ridiculous hours.

    And I’m okay with that, theoretically. But it’s really hard to a) break the habit and b) realize I might essentially get “mommy tracked,” just because I’m setting boundaries that actually, my family *is* more important than work.

    I know I’m making the right choice for myself/my family, but need a little help feeling at peace with that after I’ve had such huge successes.

    1. Veronica*

      Your career does not need to be a steady uphill trek. Think about how many years of work you have versus how many you’ve put in. If you are on a plateau now, what kind of things do you need to do so that you can start climbing in the future?
      I thought about a step up in my career but decided it wasn’t worth it for now. However I am keeping current on training and working on my network so that when I’m ready for the next step I can.
      When I get worried I remind myself of stories of people who started new careers or founded new businesses in their fifties.

      1. IchKriegDieKrise*

        My husband made a similar decision- he’s happy at his level and has made one lateral move so far, but has decided not to move up, since that would mean lots of hours and he’d rather spend time with his family. He’s happy with what he earns, and I’m perfectly happy with his decision.

        Decide what’s right for you. That’s all that matters.

    2. tab*

      Whatever you decide now is not permanent. You can change your mind anytime you like if you’re not happy. Careers are long, and you can change both the focus and intensity. Enjoy the extra time with your family.

    3. RagingADHD*

      I’d say you need to think about how you define success.

      It’s not just about “career vs family”, it’s about being happy and creating the life you want to live. Employers don’t care if you’re happy, except as a corollary to keeping you productive. They hand out promotions because you are good at pleasing other people.

      Are you pleasing yourself?

    4. Venus*

      I have worked in places that pushed people hard, and had high expectations, but in the end it is a job without full loyalty to you (lay-offs) and you don’t owe them your life. If your workplace is populated by workaholics, then they prioritize quantity over quality, and aren’t focused on the right thing. A balance between work and home means that one is more effective at work. There are other workplaces where you can be a parent and get promotions without working loads of overtime, I suspect the problems here is that they are self-reinforcing, as they don’t have much outside of work and so they can afford to be present for long days, and the competent parents know to look for something better.

      There is such a thing as a Mommy Track, but if it is because you don’t want to work 12 hours a day then that is a crappy workplace problem. If it is because you are taking a year parental leave then it’s still not fair at all, but at least that’s more of a universal problem.

  80. AnonymousVet*

    This happened at least 10 years ago, but I would like readers’ take on the situation. Sorry for the really long post!
    I was working as a vet at a small veterinary clinic in Europe. The staff was composed of two veterinary nurses and four vets : the owner (Stephen) and three salaried vets, one of which (Malika) was Stephen’s wife. Stephen and Malika were definitely an item, but she usually assumed the exact same duties and worked the same hours as the other two salaried vets, and the team went along fairly well.
    On any given day, three practitioners and one nurse would be working. We worked by appointment most of the day, but were drop-in from 6 to 7 pm every evening. That hour was definitely the busiest of the day ; we were officially supposed to finish at 7, but most days we closed around 7:30.
    Malika happened to be Muslim, which is not unusual where we live – she was however the only practicing member on staff. That year, the Ramadan fell in the fall, and the break of the fast was a little after 6 pm. Malika was extremely vocal about fasting, and reminded us of the fact at least hourly, including every time she had to lift anything (she felt too weak to do it), and every time anyone else had a sip of water or a bite to eat. It was annoying – no other Muslim co-worker I have had over the years has ever behaved in that way – but no big deal. Then, at 6 pm, just as our waiting room flooded with sick animals, she retreated to the staff room to eat. It would not have been an issue had she taken 15-20 minutes to eat and then came back down to help out with the backlog, but she took a whole hour, and then either left at 7 on the dot (if her husband was not working that day) or hung around in the staff room until Stephen was finished. That meant we were only two to handle the work of three vets, and repeatedly finished seeing the last patient after 8 pm. (The vets did not get overtime as they were salaried ; the nurses, who also had to stay till the last patient had left, did at least get paid for it.)
    One particularly busy evening, my colleague went to ask if she could come help out if she had finished eating, but she answered she was on her lunch break and that she was allowed one hour. We did, indeed, have a one-hour lunch break on most days : the clinic was closed from 12:30 to 1:30 except for emergencies. But that also meant that even though she did not eat during that break, she wasn’t working either, as we were closed. Honestly, two of my colleagues and myself got very resentful of her just hanging around on the premises while we were overworked and running about, especially the colleague who had young children whose bedtime she would consistently miss because of this. Our fourth colleague, however, thought that this was a reasonable religious accommodation, and that we were being racist and discriminatory.
    We never ended up saying anything neither to Malika nor to Stephen, as they were necessarily both aware of the wait time and the backlog the situation created : Stephen, because he dealt with it most nights, Malika, because she had to wait for Stephen to finish to go home. And of course, as the owner, he could decide he didn’t mind if clients had to wait longer than usual.
    I only stayed two years at that clinic, and the other year the Ramadan was in summer (meaning the break of fast was after the drop-in hour), so the issue did not present itself again.

    So I have two questions : was I justified in feeling annoyed and resentful, or was I being insensitive? And how should we have dealt with the situation had Malika not been the owner’s wife (assuming the owner had indeed allowed her to flex her lunch hour)?

    1. Colette*

      I would think the best option is to ask the owner to book fewer patients during Ramadan so that you can leave at a reasonable hour. Malika may have been allowed to flex her lunch hour; that shouldn’t mean that everyone else has to work late.

    2. Forrest*

      Resent the owner-manager who is making the decision to force the rest of you to cover for the fasting co-worker, not the person who is fasting. They could have hired more staff to cover that month, or paid t he rest of you to stay later, or said that for the month of Ramadan the drop-in was only 6-6:30. Lots of options that don’t involve Malika being unable to celebrate iftar or the rest of you having to cover for her.

    3. Littorally*

      For your second question, the hypothetical, I would say —

      The first thing you would need to do to address it would be to separate out the behavior that’s just boorish from the behavior that actually causes you employment problems. Talking constantly about her fast, making comments when other workers drink or eat anything (assuming those comments are things like “oh must be nice” and not “you shouldn’t be doing that”), those are annoying as hell but are not impinging on your work. The concerns you would want to raise with an owner who is not her husband would be these:

      1. If she’s so woozy that she can’t lift objects, she may not be safe to handle large animals, dispense medications, etc. This is something that you as coworkers would not necessarily have the standing to address with her, but an owner would.

      2. Leaving you guys shorthanded while she eats. Now, after fasting all day, I completely understand why she’d want to eat ASAP. She probably feels like hammered crap by that point in the day. Because of the religious angle, this is something where the owner might want to consult with an employment lawyer to make sure they would be acting within the law if they tell her she needs to eat quickly and get back to taking walk-in patients during that last hour. It’s completely the owner’s prerogative to tell her she can’t take a full lunch hour during the walk-in rush. She’s not entitled to two lunch hours.

      1. Forrest*

        Iftar isn’t usually just “eat quickly cos you’re hungry”–it’s a significant part of the day, and it’s usually a community or family meal. It’s kind of rubbish for her if she was missing it most days because she was working, and I wonder whether she was pretty unhelpful about it because she felt she ought to be able to finish early and go and be with her family and friends for at least a few nights a week.

        1. Forrest*

          *community or family meal plus prayer, I meant to say. The praying part is pretty important!

          1. Littorally*

            Hm, that’s a good point. It seems to me that she’s missing the community or family element of it anyway, and taking the full hour to eat isn’t going to make up for it, but if she’s using the time for prayer, that does make the issue of religious accommodation more pressing.

            Ultimately, the same answer remains — this is for the business owner and probably an employment lawyer or trained HR professional to figure out together with the impacted individual. And it could well be that the answer is for the status quo to remain. Malika gets the religious accommodation of observing iftar and the other coworkers have to work as though she weren’t there at all.

    4. Kali*

      I don’t have any advice, but I have experienced similar things. I grew up in a city with a high Muslim population (20%, compared to the UK average of 5%) and my school was predominantly Muslim. During Ramadan, the lunch break was shortened to half an hour instead of an hour and we all got to go home half an hour early instead. This worked out well. The shorter break wasn’t a problem as there were no queues in the canteen, so the people who were eating were done much faster than normal.

      When I was a teenager, I worked in a fast-food restaurant in a predominantly Muslim area. During Ramadan, 75% of the staff would need to go on break at the exact same time as we had a massive queue of customers who were also breaking their fast. That was stressful. I didn’t feel about that the same way you feel about Malika, and I’m trying to figure out what the differences are. I think some of it is, some staff members did delay breaking their own fast to deal with the queue, with different people taking turns on different days. I could see them struggling, and I couldn’t resent them on the days when they did get their break on time. My job was a little different to my coworkers, so I wasn’t affected in the same way as you were, i.e., I didn’t directly pick up the things they weren’t available for. Plus, it was only for two weeks and I knew their jobs were harder than mine in some ways. My colleagues also didn’t talk about it like Malika did, and I think that would annoy me too.

      All that said…well, she had been fasting all day and she did need to eat. I don’t know why she needed to take a full hour then though. As you say, she’d already had her full hour earlier in the day, so the break to break her fast was extra. I assume she didn’t take on extra tasks or anything during 12:30-1:30 or you would have said. She could at least have come back at 7pm and helped you catch up, not just assume she was done for the day. I mean, if it wasn’t Ramadan and you were all still working past 7pm, she’d stay for that, wouldn’t she, she wouldn’t just clock out right on the dot of 7? Or maybe she would, I don’t know.

    5. Policy Wonk*

      Where I work there are rules that require lunch breaks – employees cannot skip lunch then leave early at the end of the day. The sole exception to this is Ramadan. Fasting employees can skip the lunch break and leave early. This strikes me as the way to solve this is faced with a similar situation in the future.

      The employee is entitled to break time, so being angry at them for taking it is inappropriate.

      1. Fish Microwaver*

        But technically she is taking two lunch breaks as the office is closed during lunchtime. It’s easy to sympathise with Malika about breaking fast with family or community, but I’m sure other staff would like to leave on time and be home for dinner with family or other engagements. Any solution has to balance the needs of all staff.

  81. Kali*

    I’ve seen some notifications recently, from businesses who’ve had employees identified as taking part in recent events. The businesses confirm that the employee does not work for them any more, and I’ve seen them met with some criticism for not having known what the employee was like and letting them go prior to recent events.

    For me, I’ve never been in a position to hire anyone, but I presume it wouldn’t be normal to turn up with wearing a shirt stating your political beliefs, or to openly discuss politics at work. And, sure, the beliefs that lead them to take part in recent events probably did affect multiple areas of their lives prior to now, but it doesn’t seem implausible that those areas aren’t the same things their employers/coworkers would see. Basically, I’m not sure it would have been as obvious to their employers before now as some people are suggesting.

    I guess what my question is, is… Are there reasonable ways to see and avoid hiring/promoting someone who might, years later, end up taking such drastic actions? Could those companies have been doing something differently to avoid hiring these people in the first place?

    I’ve been delicate in my phrasing here because I know political discussion is to be avoided here. I’m hoping we can treat the event as “any public action which would be considered gross misconduct and result in immediate dismissal” without actually getting in to what the event was. That might not be possible, and if there’s a better way to handle it, please go with that.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      In short, those businesses are NOT responsible for predicting their employees’ actions years in advance.

      Firing them after participating in illegal activity that undermines democracy? Yes, that’s something they should be doing (and it sounds like they are), though I get there’s a slippery slope argument here. But making a hiring decision based on a candidate’s presumed political, religious/spiritual, and/or personal beliefs? Unless that’s contrary to the core of the employer’s work, then that’s unreasonable and dangerous to expect or want from companies.

      1. Littorally*

        Everything you said. Plus, people change over time! Someone who got radicalized within the last four years (as many people seem to have been) wouldn’t have shown any signs of pre-radicalization in 2010 or whenever.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Honestly, I don’t there there is any way to say a company/org “should have known”. If an employee is engaging in any form of hostile, violent, harassing, or abusive actions (including words) at work, that’s a problem and they need to go. But a lot of people are capable of keeping their horrible beliefs to themselves in the workplace and I just don’t think it’s their employers responsibility to track employee’s out of work behavior until, unfortunately, it reaches a level of public notoriety.

      I am a devoted progressive, but I don’t believe it’s acceptable to base employment decisions on someone’s political beliefs alone (obviously, it is appropriate and necessary to base employment decisions on actions which may or may not arise from political or religious beliefs). I can form my personal opinions and make my personal decisions about who to associate with based on anything I want (including which political candidate they support) but I don’t think my company should be in the business of saying “Only people with X belief system can work here”.

      1. Kali*

        I don’t think businesses should base their hiring decisions on political beliefs either. Many of the comments I saw seemed very confident that there would have been an obvious event before this one which should have been considered a reason to let them go, but I’m not sure there would have been. As you say, lots of people are capable of keeping their beliefs silent in the workplace.

        One example that troubles me is someone who was, apparently, quite high up in his businesses HR department. It wouldn’t be a surprise if anyone taking part in recent events also had some implicit or explicit biases against certain groups that would make them less effective in a HR role. But, I guess if we were all perfect at spotting biases and ensuring people who held them didn’t end up in HR or hiring roles, systemic violence wouldn’t be as a big of a problem as it is. It’s definitely something to work on and there are probably ways we could be better…but if people knew what the solutions were and they were easy to implement, the world would look very different. And that indicates, to me, that this is a very difficult problem for all of us to solve, not necessarily a personal fault in those companies.

        1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          That’s a very good point. It is scary that people with these extremist beliefs can work in HR of all fields, but instead of saying “the company should have known and never hired them”, it’s actually an example of how widespread and deeply rooted bias is and how hard we as a society need to work to overcome it.

    3. fhqwhgads*

      The only example I can think of where the company COULD have known (let alone “should”) is if the person spent the last several months posting public violent threats on social media (or saying that outloud in the office). I know there have been some reports about several identified people who did the former. In those cases I could see the criticism. Otherwise, I’d not expect employers to have a way of knowing what their employees are thinking if those thoughts are not expressed at work.

    4. Kali*

      I’m now wondering about the legal issues. I am not a lawyer, but another thing I’m seeing is that an employer can’t react to someone as if they’ve committed a crime until they’re found guilty by a court of law. Until then, they just have a political viewpoint, which they’re allowed to have. That sounds wrong to me, but, like I said, IANAL and the law sometimes works in weird and surprising ways. I’d assume most employment contracts – if they’re just not “at-will” – would have some kind of clause that says “if you do something really REALLY bad [to be defined on a case by case basis because we’re not psychic] it will be considered gross misconduct and you will be fired”. Or, at the very least, being televised would come under some kind of social media clause. Am I totally off base there? And even if the law was technically on the side of not-firing them, I’d imagine that would just mean they could sue, and then a judge or somebody would decide, not that they would automatically get their job back.

      1. Kali*

        Forgot to add: the main reason I thought of discussing this here in the first place is I’ve seen Alison talk about making sure every i is dotted and every t is crossed when firing someone, and I wondered exactly where the line is and how it applies in a situation like this.

        1. PollyQ*

          Alison advises this not because you need to have a “good reason” to fire someone, but so that the fired person can’t claim to be fired for an illegal reason, i.e discrimination based on protected class or retaliation due to filing a complaint about discrimination or whistleblower activity. Having a paper trail that shows Fergus being late, careless, etc. can help defend against possible lawsuits.

          Also, almost no one has an employment contract, although some courts have held that if there’s a process outlined in an employee handbook, that may count as a contract.

      2. Reba*

        I…. do not think that is true.

        There are some US states with laws that distinguish between an arrest and a conviction — you are not supposed to consider arrests that don’t lead to conviction in hiring or firing decisions. But, yeah, in general you can be fired for any non-discriminatory reason, or for no reason at all!

      3. aero*

        No, this isn’t true at all. If you work as an accountant, and you’re facing like, criminal fraud charges, you can get fired. If you’re in custody awaiting trial, you can get fired. If you’re a delivery driver and you get a DUI, you can get fired. All of this can happen before a finding of guilt or a plea.

      4. Littorally*

        There is nothing federally, and afaik nothing in most states, protecting employees from adverse job action based on their political beliefs. (I think California does protect political party membership?) And employment contracts are vanishingly rare in the US.

        At most jobs, you can get fired for your political beliefs, for your expressed political opinions, for being on TV if your employer doesn’t like it, for wearing a sweater your boss doesn’t like. Now, just because you can doesn’t mean you will — most employers won’t, because that’s a quick way to having bottom-of-the-barrel staffing options. But it isn’t illegal.

    5. Paris Geller*

      Extremists tend to be very good at hiding their extreme views the vast majority of the time. You might get some who aren’t, but on the whole, those who hold vile views knows that society finds them vile. That’s how many racist misogynists go unnoticed in our workplaces all the time.

    6. Girasol*

      I don’t know how you avoid hiring someone like that, but did you notice today’s post by Evil HR Lady, who discusses steps HR should take if they find that one of their own employees was involved in such an event?

    7. RagingADHD*

      No, nobody is psychic and if a person has no prior criminal record there is no reason to assume they will commit crimes in the future.

      After the fact, there are certainly many places in the US where being wanted by the FBI or being filmed commiting felonies would be considered ample reason to fire someone, and in an area with at-will employment there would be no legal barrier to doing so.

      1. RagingADHD*

        In terms of employment that is not at-will, I have seen where some off-duty police officers who shared photos of themselves in mid-felony have been placed on administrative leave pending investigation.

        That is pretty standard for officers accused of crimes, as police unions are quite strong and there are a lot of procedures to be followed before firing them.

  82. Grand Admiral Thrawn Will Always Be Blue*

    Just wanted to update from November, when I posted that my company was a whisker away from going under. I was terrified and deeply stressed. The company found a buyer with very deep pockets at the last minute, and in mid December I was given a rather nice raise. They have lost many and need to keep the employees they have left, so this was a thank you for the past year’s dedication and also incentive to stick around. I’m very grateful.

  83. Call for opinions*

    Managers! Or people with Opinions On Management ™

    From the discussion yesterday and some of Alison’s answers ;) I get the impression the general view is good managers should be able to manage remote employees equally effectively.

    I am not defending ‘bums on seats’ managers or ‘I have to have an exact list of what you did for every 5 min slot’ managers, nor am I in either camp! But I *do* find it easier in the office to do things like judge body language, pick up on whether my report is struggling with a task or is upset at someone else, and to know how independently folks are working. (In the office it’s pretty obvious if someone is asking the person next to them for help every 10 minutes, over IM, less so).

    Does this make me a Bad Manager or are there legit reasons for management to be easier in person? Opinions please :)

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      While looking at body language may make it easier for you to do things in the office, that doesn’t necessarily make it easier for you to judge whether and how well your direct reports are doing their work. In fact, it could do the opposite. You may be more biased in person to give a pass to someone who is less awkward or seems to not be distracted, even if their work isn’t quite as good as someone is a bit more awkward or appears to be off-task more often.

    2. Colette*

      I think you may have to be more proactive with remote employees – keeping on top of their deadlines/workload, having regular one-on-one meetings, etc.

      Many jobs ago, we moved from badges that were visually checked by a security guard to badges with chips that were scanned by machines, and one of my coworkers suggested that “they” could track us in the building via the chips. I pointed out that they maybe could tell where we were, but they wouldn’t know what we were doing. Two employees chatting in the hallway could be solving a difficult problem or talking about their weekends; their location doesn’t tell you that.

      I think it’s the way with work. You can tell where someone is and a bit about how they’re feeling, but that’s not really what you should be measuring them on.

      1. Call for opinions*

        I agree we shouldn’t want/need to measure how people are feeling in terms of performance, but I do think it’s reasonable to factor it into your management. (Like, if someone is clearly stressed out you might not chose that moment to give non-urgent negative feedback, or if someone is anxious about a task I might check in more).

        1. Colette*

          Sure, maybe, but that’s where the regular meetings come in. They allow you to find out how everything is going, and give you a natural place to share feedback.

          1. Call for opinions*

            I’ve always been doing those regardless of wfh ;) but yeah – I’m not saying it’s impossible to manage from home! I think it’s just harder.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I’m a little bit of a manager, but mostly just someone with opinions.

      Managing remotely requires some of the same tools as managing in person (i.e. having clear expectations and metrics) and some new/different tools (e.g. effective check-ins). Of course, check-ins *are* really useful for in-person management but maybe can be compensated for in other ways when in-person.

      And that gets to some of the examples you’ve listed, in that creating a relationship where everyone feels safe to surface those issues *and* you find ways to check if those things are happening before they become a problem. I would also echo some of what others said upthread, in that body language is both noise and signal, so I’m wary of relying on that. Maybe someone has frustrated body language, but it has nothing to do with work.

    4. UGHH*

      I’m a night shift worker and I *never* see a manager in person for more than 10 minutes *maybe* once or twice a month. Other than that, I never have synchronous conversation of any kind (no phone calls or chat) either unless there is a massive emergency going on. I can’t bring up concerns regarding my coworkers or interpersonal conflicts without feeling like a “tattletale” as I would have to go out of my way to email a manager from my personal email.. we don’t have individual work emails. It SUCKS. If you have actual conversations with managers you can let them know your concerns when a natural segway comes up in that conversation. When the only communication you normally have is a few sentences summing up your reports or asking technical questions… what am I going to do, write an email with the subject line “My coworker has a intensely meanspirited and negative personality that y’all don’t notice because you’re never here?” With elaboration in the body of the email about her disturbing lack of short term memory and inability to logically reason that also goes unnoticed because you can’t be bothered to QA any of her work?

      1. Call for opinions*

        This sounds really rubbish (although possibly more down to shifts and your managers being a bit rubbish than remote work). Have you asked your manager for a regular check in? It’s definitely reasonable to say you’d like some advice on how to handle x situation and it’d be better to talk in person.

    5. Maggie*

      I’m a remote manager and the general opinion on here that is basically no one ever abuses remote work ever, its 100% bad management and employees are always totally trustworthy just isn’t true. I manage effectively because I look closely at metrics and hold people to them and track them in a visual system we both have access to. But there were plenty of people who thought “work from home” meant “do whatever I want with my email open”

  84. 1098.1099. Whatever.*

    Can I just complain? I never seem to be able to interact with my grand boss without making myself look ridiculous. I get around her and turn into Inspector Clouseau. It’s a guarantee that if I see her I will have just spilled something down my front, say something that comes out weird, trip, drop something, or worst of all – make a minor mistake at just the right time to cause a cascading effect of catastrophe. I kind of laugh about it, but it’s also really depressing. It’s not even a matter of getting stressed and clumsy around her, because I’ll have something go wrong, turn around and there she is, with that kind of bemused, kind of horrified look on her face. At least my manager loves me!

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I’m generally a pretty good people person (in fact my career now depends on it) but in my first job after college, there was this one boss who I just flubbed in front of, every single time. I worked the front desk at a vet office and she was one of the vets, so one of the four “bosses” in the office. It was practically a guarantee that if I messed up, it would be on her watch. Whenever I messed up the system or made a mistake with a customer, it was her who’d have to fix it. It never happened when the other vets were there. Once I even shut her finger in the drawer on accident! Sometimes there’s just someone you DO NOT click with.

    2. CoffeeIsMyFriend*

      I’ve had experiences like this – only ever happens with one person wherever I am working. It is rather amusing but also frustrating – haven’t found a solution yet.

    3. Hi there*

      I was describing a situation like this once to a kind colleague, and the colleague’s take on it was that I was picking up on the higher-up’s discomfort with herself or her situation. I do think they way she was wound so tightly all the time made me uncomfortable.

  85. Crowley*

    UK people who are trying to work at home with kids who are online schooling!

    How are you coping?

    Two days of it this week (online school started Wednesday, I was on leave today) and I’m completely wrecked, I can hear all of his lessons as we’re in the same room and there’s not really anywhere else for us to work.

    Only just thought to order child-size headphones, will do that now. Any other suggestions for keeping sane, I’m all ears!!

    1. NotQuiteAnonForThis*

      Definitely child sized headphones. Bluetooth if you can swing it and they’re compatible!

      When things went to heck in the US in mid-March, here is what worked with two upper elementary school kids:
      1. Daily schedule. They had input, thus didn’t frequently argue.
      2. An alarm clock of some nature. Yes, our Echo alarm makes me twitch now, from all the alarms, but it kept the kids on task.
      3. If you have a great working relationship with your manager, and said manager asks what days/times are better for phone calls and conferences, be honest.
      4. Do you use Outlook or something similar as a shared calendar? Use the heck out of it.
      5. Is he old enough to comprehend that “even once school work is done, my WAH-Adult needs me to be relatively normal-volume level”? Mine were, thank goodness.

      1. Crowley*

        Thanks for all this! He’s expected to be online for his usual school times so at least the schedule is set, and not by me so not point arguing with me about it!

        Work’s being amazing about it, thank goodness, I have no idea how I’d cope otherwise!

    2. Campfire Raccoon*

      I’m not in the UK, by my kids have been doing online schooling since March. I have a 1st grader, one in 7th, and one in 9th. (Our district was very good about staying shut down.)

      There’ve been a number of bumps as schedules changed, teachers changed, and policies changed – so I feel your pain. I’m technically on the other side of the wall, but the door is open and I hear everything, all the time. It’s a never-ending cacophony which I cannot always tune out.

      The biggest issue is the 6-year-old. I’m very lucky in that she is pretty self-sufficient and her teacher is hilariously hardcore , but the constant “3! 2! 1! SHOWDOWN! Show me your whiteboard. Your whiteboard. KIT! STOP EATING THAT AND SHOW ME YOUR WHITEBOARD!” Gets a little old. She has headphones, but it’s hard for her to sit all day, and her ears hurt after a while. The headphones get discarded often.

      Suggestions:
      1) Schedule for you and the kiddo.
      2) Pre-prepare snacks and put them on the table. They can choose from these snacks/drinks during breaks, and don’t need to ask for permission. Mine has a drawer in the pantry. She doesn’t have to ask, and her brothers can’t tell her she can’t have ___. It’s hers.
      3)Create a visual/auditory separator. If you’re sharing a table, cover a piece of cardboard with fabric or a towel to help block the sound. If you are in the same room, figure out some sort of divider. My 12 yo used a rolling shelf and covered it with heavy blankets. It gets rolled against the wall at the end of the day.
      4) Depending on the age of the kid, hard rules as when it is ok to talk to you. My 6 yo is to pretend like I am not home, and her teacher is the adult in charge in the house. Me walking to the bathroom does not mean she can leave the desk and ask 10000000 questions. The teacher is aware of this rule.
      5) At first, every time the 6 yo learned something, she would run over and tell me about it. “FIVE is spelled F! I! V! E!” **Insert dance**. After a consultation with the teacher, we decided the teacher would come up with a new fun idea. The teacher gave her a ladybug notepad. Every time she learned something she had to write it down, and show me at the end of the day. Many ladybugs perished in this endeavor.
      6) Get headphones for yourself. If you can play music, great! If not, wear them for muffling. I tend to leave my headset on my good ear, so sounds are muffled, but I can tell what’s going on in the house.
      7) Have something for kiddo to do during down times. Could be very, very easy chores, books to read, simple art projects, cookie dough to bake, or a tablet. Anything that works for you is appropriate.
      8) Pre-make lunches if your kid doesn’t cook yet.
      9) If the kiddo is old enough, or once they’ve got the swing of things, let them move elsewhere. Or you move elsewhere! Our school provided chromebooks, and the kids regularly do class outside, or in the living room, or standing in the kitchen while cooking, or whatever. Once we went camping for a full week and relied on mobile hotspots! I know this isn’t an option for everyone – but even if you have to borrow a laptop, it’s worth your sanity.
      10) Try to pretend the noise is a TV. You’re less likely to have it grab your attention if your brain thinks of it as “bad Disney sitcom”.

      I hope this helps, even a little! You can do this!

      1. Crowley*

        This is a very helpful list! I don’t have the bandwidth to actually reply, but thank you :)

  86. JobSearcher*

    A lot of jobs in my field ( but also generally ) look for attention to detail when it comes to writing – while I’m a good writer and am not prone to mistake riddled drafts, I’m not very good at editing and grammar isn’t my strong suit. I mostly rely on Grammarly to catch mistakes I don’t and then leave it at that but I want to actually become a better editor for my own work and for when I collaborate with others – any advice?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I think this partly depends on why you think you’re not good at editing. Is it along the lines of not taking the time to do it? Not being good at catching errors? Not being good at providing suggestions instead of rewriting other’s work?

      Those are all what I would consider within the umbrella of what editing can be, since “please edit this” can mean different things in different situations. Some general tips:

      For copy editing, it can help to look at the writing in a different medium. Like, sometimes, I’ll copy something from a word processor (e.g. Microsoft Word) into a text file, because the different format is enough for me to see the work with fresh eyes. Alternatively, print it out. Also, step away for a couple of hours or sleep on it, then come back in the morning. For other stuff, you’ll need different techniques/tips.

      1. JobSearcher*

        I feel like it’s a combination of those things not always wanting to take the the time because I don’t think I’m good at catching errors! I think also I have a large internal critique when I write so I do a lot of “editing” in my head before I even write it down so that could be part of the problem as well. I really appreciate the tips!

        1. PollyQ*

          Good insight about not wanting to take the time, so try to consciously tackle that with yourself. Include proof-reading time into any estimate of how long it’ll take. Recognize that it’s something that shouldn’t be rushed. Also recognize that catching typos etc. is fundamentally different from the task of turning ideas into words, sentences, & paragraphs.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Have you tried the Hemingway Editor? It’s hemingwayapp [dot] com, it analyzes for tone and readability. Back when I had to write for work I constantly plugged my pieces in here, after a while I was able to better analyze things on my own once I knew what to look for and pitfalls to avoid.

      2. Sylvan*

        I’m a copywriter and I love Hemingway. Some of my coworkers use Grammarly, but my problem areas are flow and conciseness, not SPAG. Hemingway helps me simplify complex sentences and cut out the tl;dr.

    3. Haha Lala*

      I find that it’s easier to pick up on certain typos or grammar errors when you hear something, not just see it. Can you use a program that reads your writing back to you?

        1. Paris Geller*

          This can help, as well as just reading it out loud (if you’re in a space you can do that).
          Also, change the font & size of what you’re writing when you’re looking for small-level errors like typos. Your brain won’t scan over the errors as easily, and then you can convert back to your normal Times New Roman 12 point or whatever font & size you’re using.

    4. Toodie*

      If I need my review to be super good, I print out the material and read it upside down. Doing that slows down the reading process enough so that I don’t just skim over my errors.

      And, all hail Grammarly. Even the free version is helpful.

    5. tiny cactus*

      As an editor, I would say that in addition to printing out drafts in a decent-sized font, I would also recommend being willing to read through multiple times to catch different things. It’s really difficult to read with attention to multiple levels of editing at once (content, organization, fact-checking, concision, sentence flow, grammatical accuracy, typos, etc). It really helps both to train your brain to scan for errors, and helps keep you focused.

      My other piece of advice, although it may sound basic, is to get really good at using your word processor’s search function. If you know that a particular, searchable issue will come up a lot, it saves a lot of time and energy to do a find and replace rather than searching manually.

      My other other piece of advice (apparently I have more thoughts than I realized) is to invest in a decent style guide, and every time you come across a grammatical issue that you don’t fully understand or remember, commit to taking the time to look it up. It saves a lot of mental energy in the long run, rather than low-level wondering if it’s wrong every time it comes up.

  87. Tapped_Out*

    My co-worker John has two kids of school age. Recently he sent around a Go Fund Me asking us, his co-workers, to contribute to send his kids to a private school. For background, public schools in our state are closed, but some private schools have elected to go hybrid or fully open.

    I know them pretty well, Dany, John’s wife, is a stay-at-home-mom, which there is nothing wrong with, but apparently can no longer stand having the kids home all the time. It’s rough, I get it, I have a couple kids and we are dealing with the learning from home situation, and it’s not ideal for a number of reasons, but this just seems riduculous. It would be one thing if having the kids home was preventing one or both of them from working and earning a needed paycheck, but Dany hasn’t worked since the birth of their first child. Nor are their children stuck in a failing school district and without needed resources, their kids go to one of the highest rated public elementary schools in the country

    About an hour after he sent the email, John sent private messages to everyone apologizing and saying we didn’t have to contribute, he only sent the email to get his wife off his back about it. I thought that would be the end of it. Not so. Our manager, Sansa, is good friends with Dany and, of course, is aware of the Go Fund Me. Sansa, on our weekly staff meeting, sent out the link, again, and told us we should all be contributing to “help a valued member of our team.”

    I have come to find out from John, who was beyond embarrassed, that Dany complained to Sansa that none of us had contributed, apparently on one has, not even family. Now Sansa is harping at everyone daily about contributing during her friend’s “time of need” and is getting more insistent. Frankly, some of us are starting to worry for our jobs if we don’t. Any advice would be helpful.

    Unfortunately going to HR isn’t really an options because we are not a large company and HR mostly just handles onboarding and payroll stuff, other work issues are generally handled by managers.

    1. Crowley*

      That is just ridiculous.

      Have you tried the bland “I would love to contribute but I just don’t have the money to?” Because I presume you don’t actually have the kind of money lying around that would actually make this pipe dream possible…!

      1. Tapped_Out*

        I have, but Sansa is on a kick of every contribution helps, so thats’s not a good enough excuse. Though I know that’s bs, because I have heard her loudly charity shame individuals and organizations in the past for not donating what she considered enough. But that’s a different issue.

        1. Filosofickle*

          I highly doubt any excuse will be good enough, so trying to find the magic explanation that will get Sansa off your back isn’t useful. Just work on how to say no (and on believing it’s your right not to get pushed into this ridiculous campaign.)

          1. Reba*

            Yes, exactly.

            “I am not contributing to this GoFundMe, and my decision is final. Thanks for understanding and dropping this.”

        2. Crowley*

          Oh my.

          Then two suggestions: one, tell John to get her to back tf off, because if he’s embarrassed about this he needs to stand up and stop it, not just send you private messages. And two, start looking round for other jobs. Just in case.

          But honestly, this is bloody ridiculous and completely unfair.

        3. Haha Lala*

          Can you come up with some other “nice-to-have” expense that you’d love to do but don’t have the funds for? New car? Saving for a down payment? Kitchen upgrade?

          Next time Sansa asks, bring that up. “All my extra money is going to my new car fund. Can you help contribute to that as well? I’ll set up a go fund me if that makes a difference.” Get the rest of your coworkers on board and pick out their own “causes”.

          Maybe that’s too snarky, but that’s what I would want to say.

        5. Maggie*

          I guess maybe just lie and say you have to financially support your XYZ family member and it uses every cent you have.

    2. CatPerson*

      My reaction when I read things like this is to wonder, baffled, when it became socially acceptable to ask friends, family, and strangers to buy you stuff.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Sorry you have a garbage manager. Asking for the donations was bad enough but at least John knew that and apologized right away (obvs he should never have sent it though). But your manager, ugh. This specific thing shouldn’t be a risk factor for your job security, but having a crap manager is in general.

      I hope all the employees stand their ground and continue to refuse to donate. John should speak up every time this is mentioned and say that donations are not expected and as the father, he gets the last word over your incredibly pushy manager.

    4. Paris Geller*

      I think banding together and staying strong is the best thing to do in this case. I doubt they would get rid of anyone if they realize that NO ONE is donating.

    5. Zona the Great*

      What will really be the consequences of saying, “Sansa, that’s not appropriate. Please stop using your authority to try and strongarm me into contributing my own money for any reason”? I think there is a difference in being insubordinate and standing up to bullying adult.

    6. Ann Perkins*

      Sansa is following up with you daily? I’d either go directly to John to ask him to intervene or go over Sansa’s head to whoever her manager is, if pushing back kindly but firmly with Sansa hasn’t worked.

      1. Tapped_Out*

        Sansa’s manager, my grandboss, retired at the beginning of 2020. The hiring process for his replacement was put on indefinite hold until due to Covid. A few of us have been discussing approaching our great grandboss, but he is the head of the whole department and has a history of kicking issues back down to the managerial level, in this case that’s Sansa, the problem herself. Nobody wants to approach him alone, but most of the group is too nervous to.

        There was quite a bit of turnover the last few months of 2019, another issue, and many of my coworkers are only at their 1 year point, and they’re nervous about approaching someone that high up. I had started job hunting before this, there’s a lot of dysfunction but I put up with it because we have a great benefits package and my husband’s job isn’t the most stable.

    7. Roy G. Biv*

      Wow. Ill-advised of John, but WILDLY inappropriate of Sansa. “Sansa, the answer is no, I not able to contribute, and we are done discussing it. Now, about the Feldspar file…”

    8. Maggie*

      My best script would be “Sorry, I’m unable to give. I have some family financial responsibilities that I’ve already committed to and its just not possible.” If they say something about a difficult time I would say something like “I also have close family members going through a difficult time, and I have to prioritize the financial commitments to my own family first. I cannot give anything.”

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Y’all just need to continue to say no. She’s waiting to wear you down. Don’t do it.

      And don’t waste time making it a conversation with excuses or acting like it’s a situational thing “I’m saving for a X” because then it won’t be a solid “never going to happen.” that you’re going for.

      “I won’t be donating.” is fine. If she keeps grilling, you seriously just shrug and say “I won’t be donating.”

      Is this woman going to end up firing someone over it? How exactly will she seek her revenge for not being able to bully you out of cash for this ridiculous idea? Dany can’t even get her own family or friends to help out, LMFAO @ going for the work place. Which then puts their only source of income in more jeopardy than anything.

      Who’s Sansa’s manager? You don’t need to go to HR, you can bring it up to whomever she reports to that you’re being berated for your money.

    10. WellRed*

      I”d be tempted to suggest that, since Dany won’t have the kids at home, she get a job to pay for their tuition.
      Seriously, just say no to Sansa, to Sansa’s manager and to John.

    12. RagingADHD*

      “I can’t afford to send my own kids to private school, either.”

      If Sansa threatens your job over this, you don’t need to talk to HR, you need to talk to a lawyer, because that is extortion.

    13. ..Kat..*

      Can you complain to Gofundme and ask them to take the account down?

      How about telling John that if he is “truly sorry” to take the account down himself?

      If all of your coworkers complained to HR, would HR do something? Why not try it?

    14. CatMintCat*

      “I don’t believe in private schools and, when I rule the world, they will all be closed and their ridiculous assets distributed to the public education system. Obviously, I won’t be contributing”.

  88. Analytical Tree Hugger*

    (This is half-work, half-personal, so let me know if I should post this on the weekend thread instead)

    Does anyone have tips for building/transitioning work colleague relationships to friendships after leaving a job?

    I left my job at the end of 2020 for various reason. Several of my colleagues explicitly asked to stay in touch as friends. I’m open to it, but also terrible at making friends; I also compartmentalize a lot, so for me, my relationships with these colleagues was very work-focused. I’m open to exploring building a friendship, I just don’t know how. With most of them, we didn’t have much in common besides work, though that’s partly due to me compartmentalizing. So any help, tips, or suggestions would be appreciated!

    1. a username*

      I left a job that was bad for my mental health, and one of the saving graces was my immediate coworker who I genuinely wanted to stay friends with (and vice versa)

      We actually ended up rarely talking for several months after I left. I think between me starting a new job, him picking up the slack of my absence, and me sort of needing to cleanse myself of the place, there just wasn’t room for it. And I felt kind of bad at first.

      But over time, I think we’ve reached a nice place where we talk anywhere from one time a month or less to several times a week. It ebbs and flows. there’s a lot of catching up and commenting on current events, the things that we got along about at work.

      I think for me, former-coworker friendships don’t have to be as ‘intense’ as, say, purely social BFFs. It’s okay to acknowledge that the former intensity was probably due to proximity, and the friendship can still be a friendship way toned down. I still really value this friend’s now-infrequent presence in my life and don’t think it needs to be compared to my pure social bff to “measure up,” and removing any expectation of what a friendship is supposed to be allowed it form naturally.

    2. Erika22*

      As unimaginative as it is, I manage to keep in touch with past work-friends by mutual following on social media. Honestly I just find it easiest to comment on a post and start with a related conversation, then let conversations and friendship grow naturally. If I find we aren’t really connecting outside of a work context, the relationship can just fade (and since I’m not especially active on social media, it’s not unusual for me to let a week or more go by without posting anything anyway). Not an especially inventive way to transition work friends to friend-friends, but it works for me!

  89. Amber Rose*

    How to explain there’s a huge difference between a change in job title at an upper level than at a lower one? I’m so angry right now.

    Everyone’s job titles got changed without input and instead of safety coordinator I’m the safety and quality assistant. I run this whole effing program by myself. I’m not anyone’s gd assistant! But when I brought up this concern to my boss (calmly, mind you) the response was “we don’t want people to identify with their job titles. Also I got demoted from VP to manager.”

    One: she wanted a demotion. Two: she was never doing a VP’s work anyway. Three: I now sound like instead of someone who has been running a program myself for 6 years, I’m a freshly graduated student who got hired yesterday to help out. It’s a HUGE demotion and a huge impact in the level of respect I get too. I’m friggin livid.

    1. James*

      Has there been a change in the law recently? Our company recently changed safety officer titles from “Safety Coordinator” to “Safety Liaison”–it’s the same job, but they cited some legal mumbo-jumbo as necessitating the change (not to downplay the law, they just weren’t clear about it).

      1. Amber Rose*

        The only law here is that you can’t call yourself a president or an engineer unless you are.

        Also coordinator to liason is still more or less lateral.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Argh, I’m upset with you! That is not okay (and I’ve gone through similar issues).

      But, onto my attempts to help. First, know that your boss doesn’t seem like she’s going to be all that useful, but it’s worth another attempt. Unfortunately, even if she were wiling, she might not be able to do anything.

      I recommend reframing this in your head: It’s not an “upper level versus lower level” issue. It doesn’t matter how your boss’ title was changed (and it’s unfortunate that she brought it up as a comparison). This is a “this has serious impacts on how effectively I can do my job” issue, with a good helping of “this is negatively impacting my job satisfaction.” The key here is that you said this has severely impacted the respect you receive and that it’s not inline with how internal and external people you have to interact with will interpret your standing.

      Given that you run the safety program, I’m guessing you have some work with compliance regulators. They care a lot about titles, so being sent an “assistant” will be an issue in how they interpret what you share with them. Make the business case to your boss from that angle, that it’s not about you identifying with your role, it’s about how this title change affects your ability to do your job. Again, her title/role is irrelevant to this discussion.

      1. NotQuiteAnonForThis*

        Exactly this.

        I had a catch-all of a job title once (I think there were 8 of us with the title. None of us did the same thing. I was doing the same work as the highly technical side, not office administrative, with more closely aligned with everyone else), and it made things incredibly difficult when it came to my main work task.

      2. Amber Rose*

        OK so the CCO is on my side but now he wants to know what I want my title to be and I still don’t friggin know because I’m everywhere. :<

        Now i'm less angry but still frustrated.

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          Hey, that’s progress!

          Would it be helpful to look at other companies, either within your industry or just that are likely to have similar roles for title ideas?

          At the university I was at, I think your role was held by the department’s “Head of Safety.”

          1. Amber Rose*

            I’m head of safety. Quality assistant. Parts sales. Order verification. Policy writer. Trainer. Auditor.

            My current title is Safety Coordinator and Operations Support. Even that feels weak, but it works more or less, so I could keep it.

    3. irene adler*

      Yeah, you earned that title of safety coordinator. That is insulting to just take it away like that.

    4. Neosmom*

      Wow. Perhaps you need to “vote with your feet” and secure work with a different employer.

  90. Mrs. Wes Anderson*

    I work at a job that most of the time is pretty quiet. I’m in customer service, and if there are no walk-in customers, there are no other projects to work on. During the summer, the employees in my immediate dept. were made 9-month employees instead of year-round. This also happened to a friend (he/him) in IT. I am female. This fellow and I and one other woman in out dept. used to chat casually every day, esp. in summer when it’s super-dead. We were all furloughed in summer and upon return, my friend (call him John) was told by his boss and the head of our division that he spends too much time chatting with the customer service reps. He’s convinced he’s going to be fired b/c of an FMLA issue, and his attitude has turned to one of constant complaining, TMI about his personal life, etc. He’ll come to our dept. and sit (socially distanced) and use the eff word loudly, and the other day, he went over the top by starting a story about a relative who went to federal prison. The conversation turned to murder and rape. At that point, my coworker “Mary” said she was not comfortable with this conversation. He immediately stopped and told her he didn’t mean to offend her. Here’s my problem: The very next day, when Mary wasn’t here, he started up with the story all over again, and didn’t shut up for half an hour–I could NOT get a word in edgewise. I no longer want him hanging around my dept. If he’s not supposed to be talking to us, I too could get into trouble and I don’t want to lose my job. I want to add he was “sort of” normal until we got furloughed–now it seems like he’s cracking up a bit. What can I do? I’m also friends w/him on social media. A mistake–I usually don’t add any work people on social media. Thanks

    1. Leslie Knope 2.0*

      Maybe go with a classic Alison suggestion: become a boring audience. Act like you’re just SO engrossed in your work/book/clipping your fingernails (kidding… maybe) so that his story makes you visibly bored.
      “Oh, I’m sorry John, I wasn’t paying attention. I really need to focus/want to finish this book/get this annoying hang nail. Do you mind taking this story elsewhere?” Add in some half-drooped eyelids for extra effect

  91. Ali G*

    I’m lost for some words.
    Writing a job description. I want to say that this person is responsible for making sure our products are meeting our customer needs (current and future). It’s not “customer service” as in it’s a more proactive outreach, working with them on future modifications, etc. How do I phrase it?
    All I can think of is Office Space “I talk to the Goddam customers so the engineers don’t have to!! I’m a people person!!!”
    Help!

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      So, I’m not sure I have helpful language for you, but could you look at postings for “business analysts” or other jobs that are similar to the job you’re writing up?

      Also, could you include the language you used in your post in the job description?

      “This person is responsible for making sure our products are meeting our customer needs (current and future). They will proactively reach out to the customer, building relationships with them to working with them to identify and design future modifications.”

      And to shine up the Office Space reference: “As the liasion between the customer and the engineers, responsible for translating the customer’s needs into design specifications for the engineers.”

    2. Lyudie*

      Hmm “customer advocate/advocacy” maybe? “interfacing with customers” (though that’s a bit jargony imo)?

    5. Defective Jedi*

      Customer Success may describe what you’re looking for. Common in the tech world, not so much outside of it, but seems like a good description for your case.

  92. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

    This is probably a question for a lawyer. I have a question about job classification (exempt vs. non-exempt) in the time of COVID. This is in California, which has specific rules on this particular scenario. I’m currently salary exempt because both my job duties and salary pre-pandemic fulfill the requirements for an “exempt artistic professional”. COVID really threw us for a loop: for example my time pre-pandemic might be 80% creative and 20% administrative/technical. Then pandemic hit and we were 20-80 for spring because a lot of creative projects were cancelled/postponed and we were just filling time with professional development. Then it recovered to about 70-30 for most of the summer and fall; some projects came back. Now with the new year, new BigBoss* has indicated all of our job duties are going to be shifting permanently and it’s going to be almost no independent creativity and innovation and all administrative/technical (that’s not a direction I’m really willing to go with my career so…). We will no longer fulfill the requirements of an artistic professional and should be reclassified, but when I brought that up I was rebuffed, “we’re just not going to talk about that right now.” My job duties are changing NOW but there is no discussion of changing our status, and our fiscal year goes until June 30, which is when I’m guessing they MIGHT formally change our job descriptions and make us non-exempt, or maybe not. So, how long do they have to formally reclassify the job as non-exempt?

    *Big Boss is new as of April 2020, and came from outside California so may not be familiar with California law…or care.

    1. Colette*

      I’m not a lawyer, but I don’t think it matters if you’re not working overtime. If you are working overtime, it would become an issue.

      1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        To me it matters and I might be interested in sticking it to them a bit with the way they are treating us like drones instead of respecting us as professionals and experts in our field.

        1. Colette*

          If you’re not working overtime, it doesn’t mean anything to them, so I’m not sure how it would be “sticking it to them”.

          1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

            In addition to overtime, there are differences for required rest and meal breaks (exempt have no requirements for breaks), and minimum wage, vacation accrual, etc.; but even if they don’t owe me personally for damages, if they are ignoring proper classification for my whole team, they’re probably doing it to others and owe them, and they can be fined by the state for violating labor laws.

            1. Colette*

              Are they denying you the appropriate breaks? I mean, I understand why you’re upset – I’d be upset too – but pushing for this isn’t going to make it better.

            2. Weekend Please*

              Can you reach out to your boss or HR and ask them how they want to handle the change in status? It’s a little early to try to stick it to the company. It is possible that Big Boss didn’t want to talk about it because that is not something he needs to handle directly and doesn’t necessarily indicate the company plans to continue treating you as exempt.

              But if you don’t work overtime and they let you take the breaks you are entitled to, this would be a weird hill to die on. I know that this is frustrating but you may want to let it go.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      I would talk to a employment lawyer in your state, but exempt/non-exempt mostly impact overtime and I don’t know if that would impact you much. So, if you do a lot of overtime now, it would be a good idea to speak to a lawyer to make sure you know the rules and then I would approach this as Allison often suggests with legal issues. If you do overtime, I’d treat it like, “Of course they are going to pay you overtime, they just didn’t think about it.” So, language like- “Since this change will make us non-exempt, how should we be filing for overtime?” And then see how it goes. But yeah, see a lawyer first as I am not one.

    3. BRR*

      Look up Alison’s post on what to do if your employer is doing something illegal. Basically step one is bringing it with “I wouldn’t want us to get in trouble.” Aka you’re being a team player by making sure your employer is in compliance.

  93. Anonollama*

    So I wrote in a while back about requesting accommodation to work from home from my workplace who was being COVID-unsafe. I was struggling with mental health repercussions of trying to work in this hazardous and gaslighting environment. Earlier in the year we had been sent an all office email that said any requests to work from home would be evaluated on an individual basis, but they implied they would try to be flexible (things like needing to wfh because of no childcare were mentioned). However when I submitted a doctor’s note, the response from top management was to immediately respond by claiming my position cannot currently be completed remotely because we are an essential service (logic fail). This is the exact same position that I did remotely- and successfully- for 3 months earlier this year. Since I do about 90% of my work electronically, either via database or email, where I sit to do the work makes negligible difference in output. We are networked and have remote connectivity so I can print something on the office printers from my home work station. So basically they just don’t care enough to do the minimal arrangements necessary to make it work. There are still more parts of the accommodation process ongoing but I don’t have much confidence in my employer suddenly having a crisis of conscience. So now I’m looking at a future of being on unpaid leave, getting some government support, and, once I’m a bit recovered, starting the job search process.

    Okay, long update, but I do have an actual question: When I update my resume how would I write this current job’s duration? If I end up being on leave for a few months, do I still show it as currently employed (since technically I haven’t left the job yet)? Do I indicate the leave somehow? Thanks.

    1. Anonollama*

      The tl;dr-
      How do I best update my resume to reflect my current job if I am on a medical leave?

    2. Deborah*

      I’m sorry, I don’t know about that, although my instinct is that you’re still employed. I certainly don’t include any medical leaves I’ve had during a job in my resume (i.e., if it was in the middle of a job). But hopefully someone else can chime in on that. Mostly I wanted to say that I felt like you were deeply my story! I was able to get a new job in August which is much better, and I’m working from home for this new job. Just today my new boss told me he was glad I was at home because someone at work tested positive and it’s good I’m not there since I’m vulnerable. So I wish you the same luck I had!

      1. Anonollama*

        Thanks, I appreciate the well-wishes and it’s encouraging to hear from someone who went through similar things but is now in a better situation. :)

  94. anon today*

    tl;dr – say something or keep my mouth shut about a colleague driving an employee away by micromanaging?

    I changed roles internally (within the same department) a couple months ago, and my position was backfilled. One of my former direct reports called me yesterday to tell me she had given her notice. She said the official reason she was giving was because of challenges working from home with a baby (normally she’d be in the office with the baby in childcare, but COVID), but since we are close she wanted me to know the actual reason is that her new boss is an unbearable micromanager.

    My understanding is the manager, as well as her manager/my old boss are pretty shocked and upset that she’s leaving (she gave little notice, and it’s a bad time for our company to be losing people). My question is, do I say anything to my old boss about the employee’s real reason for leaving so he can address it with the manager? Or keep my mouth shut? My instinct is to not say anything, but I’m wondering if that’s not the right approach. If it matters, my old boss is pretty stretched thin and scattered, and I’m not confident he would have time to really coach this manager.

    1. Leslie Knope 2.0*

      Does your company have an HR department? I’d encourage your old employee to be candid in her exit interview with them. Also, since she reached out to you and specifically told you her reason for leaving, it may be an indicator that she wants you to help address it. Maybe even ask the leaving employee if she would consider a phone call with your manager before her last day so he understands her side of the story before he approaches her previous micro-manager about it.

    2. Weekend Please*

      She specifically said that she didn’t want to tell them the real reason. If you think that it would be better for her to tell them then you should let here know that. But the call should be hers to make.

  95. davisk0930*

    I recently found out i am pregnant with my first child. In addition to planning all things nursery and grappling with impending motherhood, I am trying to also plan for maternity leave. I am a federal employee, and understand I get 12 weeks paid maternity leave. Am I able to add days of regular annual leave (vacation days) to that maternity leave or am I capped at 12 weeks?

    1. ThinMint*

      I think that will depend on your employer, but you won’t have the protection that you have with the 12 weeks FMLA. I took a 4th month with one of my children but had to get it approved by my supervisors, whereas the FMLA they didn’t technically get to approve.

      1. davisk0930*

        it was my understanding that the federal 12 maternity leave was different from unpaid FMLA. Was that incorrect? And, if i was correct, could I piggyback unpaid FMLA onto the paid maternity leave?

    2. nym*

      Congratulations on this exciting time! Your agency should have an internal policy that explains the 12 weeks and what you can do with FMLA, unpaid, or sick leave / AL. I have not been pregnant, but several of my colleagues have been, including one who is coming back next Monday from her mat leave (and she missed out on the 12 weeks paid by five. lousy. days. because baby was a week early, so she has taken a combination of SL/AL and FMLA for her time).

      From what I have seen others do, the 12 weeks paid is a set length of time that you are eligible for. You are able to stack both sick leave and annual leave days on top of that to extend your paid leave, and you are likely able to take unpaid FMLA beyond that as well — I know people in the pre-mat leave era that took 4-5 months off, first by maxing out their leave and then taking unpaid leave after that. However, that may be an internal policy set by our agency, so figure out who your HR reps are (start with the second-in-command of your immediate organizational unit, whoever handles things like personnel actions, mandatory training compliance, travel, office supplies, all that stuff, and then move up to your administrative lead or management official if needed) and they will be able to help.

      Also, a word of caution: if you choose to use SL/AL to extend paid leave time, save a few days for future needs. Depending on your childcare choices, you want to make sure you are available for those inevitable “uh oh, pukey/feverish little one, you need to come pick them up now” calls. Never mind the occasional day you might need yourself, and you don’t want to be out of luck the afternoon you have a terrible migraine because you won’t have more leave hours accrue until the next pay period!

  96. Leslie Knope 2.0*

    This is a mix of good news and “WTF”

    The good news: my mom retired! She’s retired early and is SO glad to spend time with her grandkids (and hopefully she’ll help me with a new camper project my husband suddenly decided we needed!) and I know this will be a great transition of life for her

    The WTF: she retired because she essentially rage quit this week when she found out the owner/president of the 20ish person company she works at gave himself a $1.3 Million bonus. He gave his daughter, the (terribly under qualified) VP of the company, a $300,000 bonus. All the other employees? He decided to give them $50 gift cards.
    This man could have given every employee a $10,000 bonus and he’d still have been able to give himself a 7 figure bonus. It’s just… WTF?! I never imagined someone could be so intentionally inconsiderate, yet here we are.

    I’m meeting my mom for her birthday/retirement dinner tonight, and I’m certain there will be margaritas involved, so I’m looking forward to hearing about her rage quit story with a tequila kicker!

    1. NotQuiteAnonForThis*

      Request for update after you hear the story, unedited and with a tequila kicker!

  97. dazzle-flage*

    Facial recognition technology and storage of its information — can anyone make suggestions on what I should point out as concerns?

    Backstory — My work decided back in mid-fall that they wanted a system to do temperature checks on staff who work on-site (VERY few) and eventually for all staff as they return (extremely unknown timeline, and definitely not before cultural institutions are available to be open). They -also- want a system to replace our paper-based sign in/sign out sheets. They want us to submit selfies to be uploaded to the recognition system, so it will take our temperature, email HR if we fail twice, and log us in for the day. (We’ll only need to swipe badges somewhere else to leave.)
    1. I personally think the temperature checks are outdated as a symptom checker, because of the potential asymptomatic people, but …. whatever. I guess they have to do something.
    2. I don’t like the idea of them having my face stored. Especially with no explicit information about how they plan to keep it safe, dispose of it when it’s unnecessary, etc.
    3. I feel like there has to be an alternate solution — badge in with a card reader or show my badge to the temp scanner to identify myself, then take the temperature. Right?

    I’ve voiced my concerns through management, and our facilities person told staff: “I hear there’s some concern with having your picture saved on the temp check device. Don’t worry, it’s not — it’s on the server/cloud.” That does NOT make me feel better! If anything, it seems worse… Is anyone familiar with this type of technology and the potential storage methods? Suggestions for how to express my concerns using precise language so they’re less likely to dismiss it?

    1. Rick Tq*

      If your office is in a colder climate the immediate temperature scan on entry will likely be pretty low, enough to make it not very useful as a health screening technique.

      It was in the 50’s yesterday at 9 AM here when I went to my local Urgent Care. My screening forehead temp was ~95F after just getting out of my car, but after I warmed up inside it was ~97F. The nurse joked I had recovered from my hypothermia…

      1. dazzle-flage*

        We’re in a warm climate, which could affect things in the other direction later this year. I don’t anticipate it being an issue for most people on first arrival, because most everyone will be arriving by driving into an internal garage and walking upstairs inside, but anyone going outside for lunch in April/May-October might have to spend time cooling down before scanning. It just doesn’t give me much confidence generally. But wow — I’m surprised that it only being 50 outside (totally normal for winter/spring here) brought your temp down to 95 on the scanner! Thanks for the info. Glad you recovered from your hypothermia! ;)

    2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I’ve been through a temperature scan in a hot climate — Southern California this summer where it was 103 F, and it didn’t seem to make a difference at all; I never failed the check.

      I am concerned with facial recognition tech use in law enforcement because of the possibility of false positive that could have an innocent person arrested or worse, but in this case I wouldn’t be too concerned. A lot of employers already require employee photos to be used for all kinds of things including badges, email, public website… it’s so normal I’m surprised your employer doesn’t already have your photo on file. I guess there is the possibility of the system mistaking you for a coworker so you don’t get logged in properly, or not recognizing you at all and refusing you entry — hopefully there is a back up plan for that. Storage in the cloud rather than local is a minor concern, but even if your photo was stolen, I’m not sure how it could be used to harm you in this context.

      1. RagingADHD*

        This is a good point – do they not have a photo of you already, for your badge, or your company profile on the website, slack profile, or something?

        1. dazzle-flage*

          This probably is pointless by now, since it’s been over the weekend, but — no, they don’t have photos of us. They’re selectively high-tech, but mostly extremely low-tech. Nobody has their photos on the website except for the CEO, and we don’t even have staff lists on the website. We also only got slack since the pandemic and half the people don’t use it and most people don’t even realize they can change their own profile pics! (I thought I had mentioned how many staff we have, it’s between 40 and 50. Whoops.)

          Thank you though, No Attention and Raging, I appreciate it still. It’s true that generally most companies do have photos of their people and that’s a very good point. I suppose my main concern is the general lack of thinking about potential issues and just breezing on ahead. (Like it not recognizing you and not logging you in, like No Attention said — good one I didn’t consider. We’re not supposed to take our masks off for the checks also, so I hope it’s good at eyeball recognition, lol.) We shall see. I hope by the time we have to go in to do this, it’ll be only in use for a short time.

  98. Distressed*

    I really need some words of wisdom… My boss is leaving and that means, she wants me to move into her position.

    I don’t want to do it. At all. My motivation has left me completely and I find it hard to concentrate at work, because when my boss leaves, she takes all her knowledge of the programs with her. I’ve been here for less than a year and am nowhere up to speed where she was.

    She is framing this as a “You don’t have a choice. You will have to become the boss.” And my preference is that I stay in my current job and hope someone fills her position, but that’s not what she wants. I already feel overwhelmed by all the ins and outs of her position.

    I’m considering just finding another job if I have to move into her role. I’m not sure if I should mention this (as a ultimate sign of, no, I don’t want your job) or if this would reflect too poorly and I should keep that to myself. I would rather stay in my own position, but… I don’t think that can happen.

    What should I do?

    1. irene adler*

      Is it entirely up to your boss regarding who will replace her?
      I would think her boss (grand boss) would make the decision as to who succeeds her.

      Can you get a few minutes with grand boss (discreetly) and find out what the plan is for replacing your boss? Maybe grand boss has something/someone different in mind.

      Or, can you make the case for how it would be more beneficial to the company that they keep you where you are and find someone new to manage? Sometimes it is easier to hire for the skills needed than to train someone. Can you make a case for that? If it is too costly/time consuming to train you for the manager role, management might be persuaded to look elsewhere for a manager.

      And maybe your manager just assumes you want to move up as opportunities arise to do so. So she’s making noises in that direction hoping you’ll express your interest in the job.

      You don’t have enough information about the situation -at this point- to just find another job.

    2. BRR*

      So if I’m understanding, you don’t want the position because you feel you will be overwhelmed by not knowing everything your boss did. I’d carefully consider if this is just you being newer to your role and your boss presumably being in her role for longer and if this is a good opportunity. Is another person going to be able to handle it better than you? Is this possibly imposter syndrome?

      But if you really don’t want it, say to your boss or grandboss a skill that you feel you don’t have/a skill that you’d need an outside hire to fill.

  99. Orange Crushed*

    Any advice for working with people who don’t seem to have good insight? My coworker just spent the past 15 minutes coughing, yet will literally freak out if anyone sneezes or coughs in the office. My boss makes comments about how others leave food lying around, yet brought an apple kringle in that has been sitting on a table for 5 days. I just find it ironic how the stuff they complain about, they do! ::smacks heads::

    Don’t get me wrong, I do it too. I’m not perfect, but I’m not chastising or commenting about it to others around me.

    It’s been a stressful week, so maybe I’m just tired and irritated. Is this normal office stuff that you should let slide off your back?

    1. Paris Geller*

      Yeah, I think you have to let those go. I get that they’re annoying, but neither of those examples sound particularly egregious, and I think we’re all a little irritable right now with everything going on. I would let it go, relax over the weekend, and see if it’s still bothering you/as much of a problem as you think it is right now come Monday.

  100. Moving Back*

    How detrimental is it to a career to move from a higher position (i.e., manager) and then back to something at a “lower” position? At 30, I moved into a management role and then realized I hated it. I would rather be a specialist or a coordinator or something. But I hear this is not good for your career path and..now I’m afraid I’m stuck :(

    1. stressball*

      I think it would be bad for your career path if you intended on eventually going back to management, but if you really hate management in general (not just your current role) and you’re willing to never do it again, I don’t see how moving back now would affect you in the long run. You’d just have to be very sure that you were willing to live with that.

    2. OtterB*

      It depends on the industry, but it’s not uncommon to make that change. “Individual contributor” is a term sometimes used. Sometimes managers will be weird about having someone on their team who used to be a manager and will act like you are competing with them for manager, but it can make you an asset to the team because you understand the manager needs as well as the specialist needs.

      I think the biggest thing will be making yourself comfortable with the idea. If you think of it as a step down or a failure, you’ll communicate that to others, consciously or not. If you identify what you learned from the manager position and can be clear about the tasks you think you’re better at as an individual, then you’ll be able to make the case for yourself in that kind of job. For example, as you become more senior in a specialist position the role will often include mentoring junior staffers or representing your department on committees for the larger organization. If you liked things like that then you can say so.

  101. tacocat*

    Has anyone had trouble getting their tech equipment from a new job? I’m supposed to start Monday and nothing yet. They said I’ll get it in time for Monday but I don’t have any information about when it’s supposed to come, if I need to be around to sign for it, etc. Has anyone been in a position where they haven’t gotten their equipment in time for their start date?

    1. Purrscilla*

      This happened to a friend of mine … I think he ended up getting paid for a week or two of doing nothing before they managed to figure out the equipment.

  102. Mallory Janis Ian*

    My coworker (Edith’s) husband (Archie) posted on Facebook that “It’s on Americans are tired of being pushed around war is declared here in the us we all need to stand up and fight now” (he doesn’t ever use any punctuation). Then he posted and said, “[F–k] y’all u reported my post it got blocked thats violation to my rights”.

    And then my coworker’s former coworker (Elyse), who had previously become best family friends with my coworker and her husband, messaged her and said that she and her husband (Steven) could no longer be friends with them, that it has been a long time coming as Archie’s political rhetoric has become more and more verbally aggressive and they (Steven and Elyse) no longer feel it’s safe to be in Archie and Edith’s circle.

    I feel the same way about what Archie posted that Steven and Elyse do, but Edith is still actively my coworker, we’re mainly just work friends, and I never saw us hanging out as couple friends even before Archie showed even more of his true colors. She messaged me and asked me not to stop being her friend because of what her husband said, and I told her I was still her friend and that wasn’t going to change. She asked me to not hate her husband, and I just said It’s hard to hate someone you know in person, but that if I had just seen his post on Facebook with no other context, I would think he was a nut, but that it’s harder to dismiss someone when you know that’s not all there is to them. I kind of soft-pedaled the true extent of how I felt about what he said. Now I wish I had said something stronger, but I don’t know what good it would do to get into it with someone that I have to work closely with and still feel friendly toward. And she soft-pedaled what her husband said as “his opinion”. Excuse me, but saying that you’d like to be in a civil war shooting me, my husband, and children is a little stronger than just an opinion.

    2. Weekend Please*

      I don’t think you need to “get into it” with her, but if you feel uncomfortable with where things stand right now you can always reach out to her and say “I wanted to give you a heads up that I’m going to be disconnecting from you on facebook. You are still my friend and that isn’t going to change, but your husband’s posts are deeply upsetting to me and I don’t want to be connected to him and appear to condone what he says.” If she tries to talk about it more you can tell her “I really don’t think it is a good idea to mix politics and work. This seems like the best way to keep them separate.”

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I’m unclear – how did you see Archie’s post? Did he tag Edith? Did she like or share the post?

      Archie sounds reprehensible (and unclear how social media works wrt reported posts). If his stuff is carrying over to Edith’s page somehow (tagging or being shared), you should be absolutely free and clear to unfriend her. Unfollowing is less obvious than unfriending and that might be okay if it was just about the relationship with her. But she asked you not to hate her husband (for using/promoting, effectively, hate speech) and … yeah, I don’t see that as salvageable.

      The meaningful relationship is the interpersonal/work one. FB connections really shouldn’t be the bar on which friendships are judged. If she takes unfriending badly, that’s on her.

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        I was friends with Archie on Facebook because he had friended me a while back when his wife and I became friendly at the office. He visited the office a few times and Edith introduced us, and I accepted his friend request because I “knew” him. I unfriended him after I saw his post, but I’m still staying friendly with Edith. I don’t suppose I need to make any declarations to her about the low regard in which I hold her husband.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Block Archie so you don’t have to see his posts when Edith interacts with him.

      Don’t talk to Edith about Archie or his beliefs. Just avoid the topic, or make a noncommittal “Okay.” or “I see” if she brings it up.

      It’s not your job to set Edith straight. You said what seemed appropriate at the time, don’t second guess yourself.

      Just be pleasant at work and avoid the subject.

  103. Might be Spam*

    What are possible jobs that a hospital chaplain would be able to qualify for? She enjoys the work, but hospital policies are making her feel overwhelmed and unsafe.
    She is also never “off duty” because friends and family keep coming to her for comfort and advice because “that’s her job and she should be used to it.” She wants to find another job that is less stressful.

    1. WellRed*

      This probably is too specific to be here in Maine there’s a well-known chaplain to the game warden service. She’s a published author so maybe look her up and see if that triggers some ideas about how to step out of the box, if you will. Kate Braestrup.

    2. Girasol*

      My favorite real estate agent was an ex-chaplain. But there are lots of jobs where one of the most important skills is to be able to deal well with people.

    3. Forrest*

      Student support roles in a university? Something like housing or debt advice too, or drug/alcohol counsellor— roles where you’re working directly with people and there’s a high degree of empathy and support, but you’ve also got practical advice to offer and processes to follow.

      If that sounds appealing, get her to think about things like how much emotional support vs practical advice she can cope with, whether she likes having short-term encounters with lots of people or building longer term relationships with a smaller number, and what kind of clientele and environment she’d like to work with. But the skills of a hospital chaplain are VERY transferable, and she should be able to find lots of environments where she can put them to good use.

    4. Hi there*

      And as far as the second part of the question goes, the uncomfortable answer is boundaries. She can say she is off the clock and focusing her energies elsewhere. There are ways to justify this stance but people who feel entitled to free counseling would probably argue any point. Enforcing those boundaries is key. If a subject change doesn’t work then it is time to exit the conversation. The same rules apply for both family and friends. I’ve found Captain Awkward’s posts on how to respond when people say “but Faaamily” very helpful.

      In my part time church gig I can counsel people but the rules are very strict that there is a limit of three times for the same person/subject. After that I refer them to other resources.

  104. Trochee*

    I need some advice about wording a disability accommodation request.

    I work a retail job where the hours we work each day are pretty much the same, but they have a weird system for rotating days off. After a year of that I asked for a steady schedule because I struggle with time management and changes to routine and trying to remember which days I worked was taking up a lot of mental energy and causing a lot of anxiety. They are really strict about tardiness and absences, so I would end up checking my work schedule multiple times per day to make sure I wasn’t getting it wrong. At the time I didn’t know how to formally request an accommodation, but I made it clear it was more than just personal preference (I have been diagnosed with GAD, OCD, and depression). At one point I offered to get a doctor’s note, but my boss said that wouldn’t be necessary and he’d work with me. Even though he has for the most part worked with me, he’s given me a lot of hassle about this schedule, and I think it’s time I got a doctor’s note and made a formal accommodation request.

    The thing is, I can deal with an occasional schedule change. I know the holidays in retail are crazy and I accept that a few times per year things are going to be really hectic. I’m not 100% inflexible; I just can’t handle constant shifting. I’m not even picky about which day I get off so long as it’s steady for several months before the next change. However, things have gotten significantly worse for me this year. My anxiety has been through the roof and it’s like my mind doesn’t absorb things correctly. Last month I got a holiday schedule and knew it would be different from normal, yet even after reading it several times I missed one of the changes and came in at the wrong time (and got written up for it).

    How do I word a request like this? I’ve gotten disability accommodations from doctors before and each time they basically asked me what I wanted them to write. I have no idea what to say here. I don’t need a particular day off, just regularity in the schedule. Ideally, I’d like some say on which set day I get off. And I’d like a verbal head’s up when they make changes around the holidays because I don’t always catch them on the printed schedule (it’s basically a list of numbers by each person’s name). The tricky thing is that since my boss has given me so much hassle about this, I’m worried that he’ll take full advantage of any loopholes.

    1. Lunch Ghost*

      I think “set schedule” is the wording you’re looking for? You’re requesting a set schedule, and to be directly informed when any changes are made to that schedule, and for changes to be made no more frequently than every X months. And then I guess you specify which days you would or wouldn’t want to be off (although I’m less certain about including that when it doesn’t seem to be connected to the disability).

    2. Reba*

      Are you trying to avoid discussing your diagnoses? Or just looking for the highest chance of success with the request? It seems like what you wrote in your last paragraph is pretty much it, isn’t it?

      As far as “loopholes”…. your boss is not bound by just what the doctor says in their note. They have to engage with you in the “interactive process” to come up with solutions, but they don’t have to give you the exact accommodations you want. The letter should describe the accommodations you would like and affirm that they would help you. Unfortunately, you will still have to work with the hassling boss on this. Fortunately, the accommodations you want are very, very reasonable and should not be at all difficult for him to do! I would make clear to the boss that you want certain set days, and underscore that you want to keep around the same total number of hours even though certain days of the week are going to be blocked off (assuming that is the case).

      I had a set schedule in my retail job years ago, because I had another job with regular days. No special reason! It was fine. Sorry you’re dealing with this and best wishes.

  105. Deborah*

    I’m wondering how you handle colleagues’ concern about obvious but hard to explain medical issues. My example would be this: I have Sjogrens Syndrome which is a common but less known autoimmune disease that causes some ordinary autoimmune problems like joint pain and fatigue but some less common ones as well. It works by attacking the mucus membranes, so you end up with extremely dry eyes, nose/sinuses, mouth/lips/throat, skin, etc. One of the issues you can get us blepharitis, which is inflammation of the oil glands on the eyelids (did you know you had oil glands on your eyelids that put oil into your tears? I didn’t), which…can look pretty unsightly. Google image search if you want to see. I don’t know what pink eye looks like for sure, but I can imagine someone equally ignorant of it asking me if that’s what I’ve got. Or simply being concerned, because it looks painful, and it is!

    I’m currently working from home and all of my meetings this week have been audio only. So it hasn’t come up yet, but I thought it might earlier in the week. I’m torn between my general willingness to tell people stuff if they ask, and my sense that people don’t need or even really want arcane medical details and it would be better for something like that to simply say when asked something along the lines that it’s inflammation and not contagious and I’ve gotten some eye drops from the doctor to get it cleared up.

    My other known example of weirdness is that sometimes while I’m walking I will suddenly get an extreme joint pain that might make me cry out and stop walking. I’ve been at home so much during the pandemic no one has seen me do that, but presumably at some point someone will.

    Thoughts?

    (The treatment for blepharitis is steroid and/or antibiotic eye drops. I just talked to my eye doctor’s office and they are calling some in. So this particular incident will get cleared up, don’t worry.)

    1. fhqwhgads*

      The first thing that came to mind when reading your post was “Sjogrens Syndrome like Venus Williams!” While it may be rare and not commonly known in general, I do think it’s slightly more known since here diagnosis. At least with tennis fans. I admit other than joint paint/fatigue I don’t know much about the actual disorder, so you taught me some things today. But I’m mentioning all this because if you wanted to bring it up you could potentially say “Sjogrens Syndrome, like Venus Williams” and I bet a bunch of people would just nod, and even if they don’t understand the details, “get it” to a certain extent. And non-rude people won’t inquire further. So that might be an easy out? But also you of course are under absolutely no obligation to disclose any medical info at all if you don’t want to.

      1. Deborah*

        Thanks for that, because I had forgotten she had it! Gosh I cannot imagine being as active as she is. Oof. That is such a great idea, I will keep that in mind!

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I’ve had both blepharitis and conjuctivitis (pinkeye) in the past. They are absolutely no fun and I hope you can get your meds soon! My coworkers never seem to notice or ask me if they do notice, possibly because I wear glasses and that makes it a little less obvious. Either one can look like allergies and if you’re looking for quick ‘out’ with limited details but still conveys I’m-not-contagious I would probably just go with that (“Don’t worry, I’m having an allergy flare-up”). I also do this when I get watery eyes for no specific reason, to forestall anyone thinking I’m upset.

      On the joint issues, it might not be something that people pick up on much either, or they might not want to pry. I once aggravated an old foot injury and limped across a huge meeting room in full view of most of my coworkers and not a single person asked me what happened. If I were walking with you and you appeared to stumble/stop/be in pain, I’d probably assume you twisted your ankle or something and check to see if you’re okay but not expect anything more than a quick explanation, “just a twinge” or “my foot landed funny.” Not to downplay the pain, but the potential reaction and questions from coworkers.

      1. Deborah*

        Thanks for that. I was mostly worried about the eye condition because I thought it would be noticeable, but that is a good idea.

    3. RagingADHD*

      I have some chronic stuff that flares up from time to time. If it becomes noticeable and someone asks, that’s what I say:

      “It’s just a flareup of a chronic thing. It goes away in a day or 2.”

    4. TJ*

      I think vague terms like “condition” and “flare up” are going to be your best bets. For the eyes, “yeah, I have an eye condition and it’s flaring up right now. Don’t worry; it’s not contagious.” For crying in pain while walking, just say you’ve got some joint problems that are aggravated right now. People don’t have to know the details; they just want to know you’re not in immediate danger or a danger to them.

    5. BadApple*

      I have glaucoma and have gotten blepharitis from my drop regimen. No one has ever commented (though my glasses may help). Also, I just do glaucoma meds sometimes if I need to even in environments with other people. If I’m with acquaintances I just say, “I don’t have pink eye this is for glaucoma.” Hope this information is helpful. My personal experience with medical things is that as long as you act like you are comfortable with it, everyone else accepts it (which of course puts a ‘burden’ on you, but what can you do…)

  106. (im)patiently waiting*

    I was told a company I was interviewing with is preparing a job offer! Super exciting… but the issue is the salary range for the position was incredibly wide (the bottom half of the range is literally half of the upper end). The other issue is they said they were preparing an offer 6 weeks ago. I totally get delays in hiring process, especially over the holidays, and they’ve contacted me twice (including yesterday) to apologize for the delay and assure me an offer is coming…. but I’m going absolutely insane wondering where their offer would fall in their really broad range. Can I email them asking their rough estimate? Or should I just keep being patient?

    1. PollyQ*

      I think you’ll just have to wait. A salary is such a big part of an offer that it’d be a little weird for them to just give you that number on its own. And once you’ve been told an offer is coming, the last thing you want to do is give them any reason at all to change their mind.

  107. ThePear8*

    I got some good advice a while back when I asked here about inviting guest speakers from the industry to talk to the club I run at my university.
    Slightly similar but more specific question…

    Short version: Advice for reconnecting with a former teacher who is not in said industry but has connections?

    Long version: I had a professor last spring who was absolutely fantastic. Her class was not in any way directly related to my major but satisfied some general requirements that I needed, but she was an awesome teacher and made her class super interesting. At one point, when I told her I would be absent to attend a conference in my industry with members of our club, she mentioned her husband actually works in the industry and they have friends/connections who work at big name companies in said industry, and I should stop by her office hours and chat sometime. I was all for it, as I was (and still am) looking for guest speakers for our club meetings. But right after that COVID happened, all classes went remote, and like most I was just trying to adjust and get by, and making time for small talk with my teachers over non-urgent matters was very much not at the forefront of my mind. Well, she ended up leaving the university after that semester. Just recently though, I found her on LinkedIn and connected, including a connection message thanking her for her amazing class and following up on the fact that we never did get to chat about my industry. So…what now? Where do I go from here? I of course want to properly tell her how much I enjoyed her class, but I also feel weird that I am mainly trying to ask about her husband’s work, even though she was previously open to talking about it…is there any tactful way to go about this and properly follow up?

    1. Deborah*

      Since she previously offered, and since this is a professor/previous student relationship, I think it’s totally fine to just say, “you had mentioned your husband worked in (industry) and that you might have some networking suggestions and other advice to share. It’s been such a weird year so we didn’t get to have that chat, so I wanted to see if you are available to talk about it here?”

      In my experience (5 years of college as an adult in my 30s, I graduated in 2018), professors want to help students succeed and are very open to being approached for advice, connections, recommendations, etc. (assuming you were a good student).

      If it makes you feel less awkward about it, I recently connected with someone on LinkedIn that has been my counterpart at a major customer of the company I worked for approximately 2-3 years before this event (he was promoted out of that role). I hadn’t spoken with him in that time. I really needed a reference for a new job and couldn’t count on one from the company I worked for, so I messaged him out of the blue, trusting he would a) remember me (we talked practically daily so that seemed likely and b) be willing to give a good reference. He responded within minutes and was happy to do it. I spent more time carefully crafting that message than the entire rest of the interaction!

  108. Lost in the Career Paths Jungle*

    AAM fam, I could use some career path advice/suggestions.

    I am currently stuck in a quality assurance job in an industry that is related to one of my hobbies and looks great and fun from the outside, but is actually a hell pit of underpayment, overworking and just plain soul-crushing awfulness. I’m talking widespread HR incompetence, an abyssmal response to Covid, contracts with restrictive non-competes that make leaving a chore, and a salary so low I can’t afford an apartment of my own, or pets, or retirement savings for that matter.

    Now, I am lucky in so far as I have parents who’ll be happy to welcome me back home for a couple of weeks/months once we are all fully vaccinated and the lockdowns are lifted, but the big question on my mind for now is–where do I go from here? I would like to leave this industry completely so I can enjoy my hobbies again without thinking of work, but I am kind of stumped on what kind of job would actually fit my qualifications and soft skills. My current job has left me so thoroughly unhappy, I just feel utterly lost. Right now, all I know for sure from my work history so far is:

    – While I am good at customer service and I do enjoy helping people (got stellar reviews in a callcenter job I did for a while), I do not want to have direct contact with customers/clients (whether face to face or by phone) as a huge chunk of my workday.
    – I suck at managing people, including myself. I am someone who thrives with clear structures, processes and deadlines, and while I can successfully lead a team for a short while, it really stresses me out in the long run (I have passed up promotions because of this). Leave me unsupervised with a bunch of vague goals and no direction and my anxiety goes through the roof–the idea of freelancing terrifies me.
    – I have a graduate degree in translation and can speak/write two languages fluently and a third enough to communicate casually.
    – I do actually enjoy the quality assurance part of my job–it makes me feel like I did something useful not just for myself and the company, but for the final consumer/client as well.
    – I work well both in teams and alone and can juggle multiple different processes for different clients, so long as they are documented clearly somewhere.

    Does anyone have any suggestions on what type of jobs someone like me would thrive in?
    Thanks in advance.

    1. Roy G. Biv*

      Inside sales for technical products was my first thought. Bonus if you can cover sales by phone or email for your second or third language, as well as the first language. A properly run sales program (I know, a lot of companies do not know what that is) will have clearly-defined sales goals, territories and processes, so you can spend your time breaking each day down into the relevant chunks: return emails now, write quotes this afternoon, have a status report meeting on Wednesday. And working toward your sales quota is the measuring stick that tells you if you’re succeeding.

      1. Lost in the Career Paths Jungle*

        Thank you very much, Roy G. Biv! Must admit I hadn’t thought about sales at all. I’ll keep it in mind.

    2. Lyudie*

      I wonder if a different industry would be enough of a change…if you are in QA in games now, from my understanding other software companies are likely better as far as work/life balance, pay, and so on. (disclaimer: I am not in QA, but have worked with QA folks in tech, have been in tech companies for 20+ years, and have heard a good bit from people in games about how bad conditions can be there). It might be worth looking into compensation etc. in other industries before you make a leap into something completely different.

      1. Lost in the Career Paths Jungle*

        Thank you, Lyudie. QA in other software companies is exactly what I’m looking into at the moment, based on recommendations from former colleagues. I think it will be a good choice for short term, just not sure about long term.

    3. BadApple*

      Are you in video game translation? Please don’t feel pressured to answer, but as a multilingual person I was looking into that as well and would appreciate knowing if its not a good field.
      If you like ‘teaching’ language in any capacity all of the language learning apps are hiring. In my area sometimes people work in managerial roles in translation type companies as well.

      1. Lost in the Career Paths Jungle*

        Thank you, BadApple. I do actually enjoy teaching, at least for a little while. Not sure if I would like to do it long-term, but for two or three years, maybe…
        And yeah, I’m in videogame QA. I’d say if you want to go into the videogame industry, it’s a good place to get 2-3 years of entry level experience, but QA is pretty much always on the bottom of the salary and benefits pecking order, so… would not recommend it for long term.

  109. Bad Bad Leroy Brown*

    It’s late in the day, so this will probably get buried… But on the off chance someone has thoughts, I’d love to hear them. I think my employee has a learning disability or a learning difficulty. Ever since we hired him, I’ve discovered he seems to reinterpret direction. Initially I chalked it up to him being ambitious and wanting to demonstrate his own style. But it soon became apparent, he seemed to have trouble following directions. When I follow up on something that wasn’t done, he usually replies with some version of … “I forgot.” (though more professionally than that) It happens regardless of whether the direction is written or verbal. And the more complicated the task, the more communication is needed, the more details get lost in translation (or end up completely lopsided).

    In an effort to try and better understand his strengths, I went through his resume again and noticed that he went to a college that serves those with learning challenges. And as I read through the challenges that might be supported, I had a moment of clarity. To be honest, it doesn’t change my opinion of what he is or isn’t capable of. (There are some things he does well) But, I can say, that if he did have a learning difference and asked for accommodations, I would be relieved that there was something I could do to both support him and communicate in a way he would better understand.

    Of course, I can’t ask him whether he needs accommodation. And normally I would just institute some accommodations that might help us both. But, it’s not that clear cut. I’ve tried writing things out. I’ve tried talking with him. I’ve tried keeping things simple – but then he makes odd assumptions about what he should do. I’ve tried being very detailed and things fall off his radar.

    I don’t really have the power to put him on a PIP. He reports to me, but hiring and firing belongs to my boss, who is aware of his challenges and his accomplishments. (They both cancel each other out as far as I’m concerned). But, if anyone has any thoughts about other communication methods I might try, I’m open to it!

    1. Littorally*

      You shouldn’t start the conversation about accommodations, but you can and should absolutely draw his attention to the miscommunications and engage with him about how you can best communicate instructions to him in a way he’ll remember and interpret appropriately.

    2. OtterB*

      What Littorally said. I wouldn’t address it as accommodations, but as ways to improve communication. Not about this particular issue, but I think Alison suggests in general that if you’re having the same conversation over and over that you need to call attention to the pattern. So if you haven’t already, state the overall problem (that directions don’t get followed) and review examples in an evidence-based way, not an accusing way (tasks don’t get done, details get lost in translation, problems with written or verbal), and ask for suggestions about how to improve things. Maybe give him time to think about it and then have a second conversation a few days later about solutions, so you don’t put him on the spot. It needs to be a collaborative effort: you can’t solve this for him, but with his cooperation you can solve it with him. Also, when you’re reviewing examples, mention the things he does well, partly to be encouraging but also as a way to trigger thinking about what’s different about those things.

      Also, think about the format of your written directions. Sometimes a checklist will work where instructions in paragraph form make it easier to overlook things.

    3. Former Retail Manager*

      I feel for you…I’ve been in this situation. But I have to wonder….what accommodation do you think would actually help him? If verbal instructions and written instructions are both unsuccessful, what else is there? I’m not being sarcastic…I genuinely don’t know, but if you have an idea, I’d love to know in case I ever encounter this again. I also have to wonder, if this person had a learning disability that was addressed/accommodated during his education, why he wouldn’t have realized as an adult that he needs to replicate whatever steps he took to be successful in his education?

      At this point, I’d just tell him, I asked you do to X….but you didn’t/messed up/did Y instead….why? Where did you go wrong specifically? I’d make him take you through his process, step by step, as painful as that might be. I’d then ask him if there is anything you can do to assist him. To me, that’s not really addressing accommodation (but I could be wrong legally speaking) and it leaves the door open to allow him to raise the issue.

      1. Littorally*

        It could also be something like — written instructions in email vs written instructions in Slack or another chat method. If I get told to do something via chat, I immediately put it in an email to myself so I can put it into my checklist.

        This isn’t an accommodation, but it is the kind of thing that a big-picture conversation with him could uncover as an optimization for him to do for himself.

    4. LGC*

      As a ~*~disabled adult~*~: The issue isn’t whether he has a disability, it’s that he struggles with direction. You don’t need to get HR involved, and I’m a fan of the ADA! Like, I have Asperger’s, but I’ve managed without formal accommodations at work. (But that’s just me and my workplace.)

      I want to be honest, since I’ve made this mistake myself (and okay, I sometimes still make this mistake) – it seems like you’re trying to solve his problem without asking him what he needs. On top of that, it feels like you’re assuming that because he might have a learning disability, it has to be this gigantic production such as a HR document – as opposed to if he was a “neurotypical” person, where you probably wouldn’t have this concern.

      As someone who also supervises people but doesn’t have formal disciplinary power: Talk with your boss. Tell them what you wrote in the first paragraph – that he has struggles. And also talk with your employee and let them know that their inability to follow direction is an issue. (And what you can do to fix that!)

    5. RagingADHD*

      Are you making an adjustment every time he gets mixed up, or do you stick with one thing for a while? It’s possible that frequent changes are making it harder for him, because he has to adjust to the changes as well as get on track about interpreting the directions correctly.

      I’d suggest talking to him, to get his input on what would be easiest for him. Then whatever method you decide on, stick with it for a good while, even if he still makes mistakes at first. Give him a chance to correct himself while dealing with a consistent pattern.

  110. Good golly miss molly*

    I’ve noticed something since the pandemic hit and i started working remotely and I’m wondering if anyone else has noticed the same thing:

    Previously I would spend 95% of my day physically in my office, so my clients and colleagues knew where to find me in person. I was given a company cell phone with call forwarding when we were all sent home. I have noticed that people will call 2-3 times right in a row if I don’t answer. I have a voice-mail set up and I always return calls within one business day. The calling 2-3 times in a row happens often and most of the time people don’t leave a message. I’m sure some of them are spam callers, but most of them I recognize as clients or colleagues. Does anyone else have this happen to them? It seems strange to me, but I admit before we got sent home I didn’t use the phone much in my job.

    1. Petty Rodent*

      YEEEESS!!! Over and over. It’s become SUCH a problem I’ve implemented a new policy that people who call repeatedly and don’t leave a VM or email (as the voicemail instructs them to) do not get a call back. With all communications being over phone and email, combined with the increase in spam calls, it is unreasonable to expect someone to return harrassing phone calls.

      Unfortunately, there is a negative side effect: the assistants will tell their managers “I tried to call over and over and never got ahold of someone.” Then maybe a few days later I’ll get an email from the manager saying something to the effect of “We’ve been trying to get ahold of you, but no one ever called us back.” I can’t let this perception become reality for them, so I keep really, really good call log records. When someone calls over and over, I make a note in their customer file. Then I’ll respond to the email with something like, “Oh no! When did you leave a voicemail? I don’t have any unanswered voicemails or emails – when was it, and I’ll have IT pull the recording. If the VM program isn’t logging accurately, I need to make sure it is fixed. I do show that someone from your number called three times in a row on Monday, but never left a message. Are you sure assistant left a VM for a call back?”

      And then of course, the assistant has to admit they never left a VM or emailed.

    2. OtterB*

      I would guess it’s probably people trying to make the phone do the job of “drop by office, if they aren’t there or you can see they’re on the phone, try again a few minutes later.” And they’re not thinking about the fact that your missed call log shows all the attempts.

      Perhaps they know they’re going to be out of the office later so are hoping to catch you rather than start a telephone tag.

      Or, if I had a quick question, I wouldn’t want to wait a business day for a response if I could help it, so might not leave a message but just try again a little later.

      But my colleagues and I are pretty much all email with occasional Slack, so it’s not really an issue for us.

    3. TextHead*

      This happens to me a lot. I usually figure that if they don’t leave a message, it wasn’t that important. It’s like they hope if they call immediately, that I’ll suddenly be free.

      I’m personally one that doesn’t like leaving messages – I prefer to talk to people when I know I’m available. However, I try again later, not immediately. I will leave a message if urgent, of course.

    4. Captain Marvel*

      I’ve only had my company’s accounting department do that to me and it was strange! I have my work phone set up to get forwarded to my cell and calls from my company show up as “Avengers Initiative” with the company’s main line, not the individual’s number so when they just hang up I can’t call them back because I don’t know who called me.
      It’s annoying because they won’t email me, they’ll wait a day before calling me again. We even have Teams and they refuse to use it. And then they get upset because I’m unresponsive. Now I know it’s them so I just send a group email to the likely perpetrators asking “who is trying to track me down? I got a call from the Avengers but no voicemail.”

    5. Deborah*

      I don’t call multiple times in a row, but I do sometimes call a co-worker and not leave a voicemail. That’s usually because I thought I would get a quick answer by phone if they were available and if not I decide to try something else, perhaps an email, or waiting until I will speak to them at a regularly scheduled time, or in one case recently, I ended up filing a help desk ticket and assigning it to the co-worker (we are both in IT), which ended up being for the best because she had to research the answer get back to me, and now we have documentation on this weird process neither of us knew someone eons ago built.

      I suppose I just hate listening to and answering voicemails so much that I avoid leaving them if I can help it. But I realize that’s not really what you’re talking about.

  111. Ann Perkins*

    Has anyone had success negotiating for your office to have a more casual dress code recently? We’re in-person in our office, which I don’t mind because we have a very large office and everyone has their own space. All our meetings are over zoom and we very rarely have clients in our office anymore so it feels pointless that we still have a business attire dress code. Most of us have knocked it down to business casual anyway but would I be out of line advocating for jeans being acceptable going forward? I think my boss is hesitant to go down that road because we’re a very traditionally suit and tie, white bro industry, and he’s got some embedded habits from that. I would love to be more comfortable at work but I’m not sure how much capital I want to spend right now since I’m also waiting on an answer back about a request for a raise.

    1. Anax*

      I wonder if “casual Fridays” would be a good inroad, since there’s some tradition behind that? Not sure, as I’m in very casual IT culture, so we’re always wearing jeans!

    2. Deborah*

      I was given a dress code policy at the job I started in August that is business casual with some odd restrictions Monday through Thursday (no capris at the knee but “pixie pants” just above the ankles are ok?) and casual Fridays that allows jeans. But during the pandemic we’re on casual Fridays all the time, keeping in mind the no capris, no shorts, and no skirts above the knee (idk, I guess it’s the South?)

      I didn’t have to advocate for it but if you are collecting examples, here’s one for you!

  112. Jean Pargetter Hardcastle*

    I’m wondering how things are different when you have a couple of direct reports, as opposed to being The Manager. I manage one location of a multi-location organization: staff (8 direct reports), operations, facility issues, customer issues, etc. It doesn’t suit me, and I’m exploring other options (I have the great good fortune to have married a career counselor!). I’ve been operating under the thought that supervision is just not my jam and must be avoided, but yesterday I was wondering if things are different when supervision is not your primary duty, but that you do supervise one or two other people. Like, I don’t want to run the farm, but maybe I wouldn’t mind training a couple of other llama groomers as part of my general llama grooming duties?

    Hope this makes sense and some of y’all have some wisdom to share. Thanks!

    1. Lyudie*

      Sounds like you are interested in being a team lead, perhaps…directing other people’s work, mentoring, etc., but no real managerial duties like performance reviews. Project manager might also be something you might be interested in.

      1. Jean Pargetter Hardcastle*

        I do enjoy mentoring! It’s one of the few parts of managing people I find rewarding. I’ve considered project management, haven’t learned enough about it to decide if it’s worth the investment in a PMP, though.

  113. Just Wondering*

    I did a phone screening for a position a few weeks ago and they told me the salary was $X. They e-mailed me letting me know the salary is now $X-$5k, and wanted to know if I was still interested. I was wondering if this is a red flag? It still pays more than my current job, but it seems weird that they would decide to lower it by $5. (It’s a job where you’re on a team of people that all do the same work. So does that mean they’re hiring someone new for cheaper than what other people started at?)

    1. WellRed*

      I’d just straight up ask them to clarify the reasoning. That is, if you are still interested. TBH, I don’t think it’s a great look for a company to LOWER a salary offer.

    2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      It could be, or it could be that they were recruiting for someone new at higher than the current people were being paid (there’s many examples of that) and are now paying in line with the current people… I think you should ask upfront about it and be guided in what to do next by their response.

  114. Drowned Lab Rat*

    Does leaving a contract position (full time work but no benefits or PTO) for a “full-time” position make me less likely to look like a job hopper?

    I’m in my late twenties and haven’t had a job for more than 2.5 years yet. I took a new job in August after searching for over a year. I was actively avoiding contract jobs, but then my old job started a crazy rotating shift schedule due to social distancing requirements while piling on unrealistic amounts of work. As the working conditions got worse, I became less picky about what I applied for and ending up accepting an offer for a contact role.

    I’m about five months in and starting to think the work itself is a bad fit. PTO and a 401k match would be great and the health insurance my agency offers is pretty crappy. Even though it’s a contract position it’s still considered at-will employment, so I can leave whenever I decide.

    One of my coworkers, who is also a contractor, has been there for over two years and does not believe the department is interested in hiring us on as full-time employees. I’m taking that with a grain of salt, but I don’t want to put off starting a job search if that’s the case. It will probably take at least six months to find a new full-time position in my field, so it’s not likely to that short of a stint at the current place. However, I’m still worried about looking like a flight risk to potential employers if I stay for less than two years. Thoughts?

    My resume looks like this at the moment:
    Current Job (5 months)
    First Job (2.5 years)
    Unfinished Grad Program
    Bachelor’s Degree

    1. Always Late to the Party*

      I don’t think this looks job hopperish. Was the 2.5 year gig entry level? If so, that seems like a reasonable amount of time to have stayed and grown out of it.

      Alison often says job hopping is a *pattern* of short (>1 year) stints. You don’t have to force yourself to stay two years at your current job if you’re unhappy and can find something better, but you would probably want to make sure you like the next job enough to stay at least 2 years.

    2. WellRed*

      Honestly, I don’t think you have enough work history to look like a job hopper and it’s very normal to have some shorter term stints on your resume while you gain experience and figure it all out.

    3. voluptuousfire*

      Nah, you’re fine. Just put (contract role) next to your current job title on your resume. Recruiters will understand wanting a full-time time role when you’re on contract. I was a contractor the first two years of my job and it was frustrating.

    4. Drowned Lab Rat*

      My first job was an entry level position. I’m planning on being much more careful about what jobs I apply for this time around to make sure it’s something I’d want to stick with.
      I’m not in a huge rush to leave my current job as the working conditions are way better compared to my last job.

      1. Can Can Cannot*

        If you list the job as “Current Job (xx/xx – yy/yy, contract position)” then people who review your resume will probably assume that it was a short term contract and you left after the contract was up.

    5. Engineer Woman*

      Is your Unfinished Grad Program something you’re still actively working on? Would you have something like:
      Unfinished Grad Program – expected graduation X/202X
      Otherwise, I’m not sure having that on your resume makes sense.
      To your original question of whether moving soon from your current contract position would seem job-hoppy and I would say No, not at this point as you are early in your career and you were with your last/first job for 2.5 years which is reasonable.

  115. Second Chances*

    I have a team member that we let go of early last year. She was was a hard, dedicated worker, but had a lot of issues in attitude, which made her hard to manage and affected other members of the team – couldn’t accept feedback, was harsh to others when they didn’t perform up to her standards, disagreed with company changes and argued over them (we’re open to feedback and are not just “because I said so” about changes, but at the end of the day, some people may not like all changes we move forward with), etc.

    Now, she wants to return. She’s spent a lot of time working on these issues in a meantime (personally, not in another job that I could check with). We had a call discussing what the issues were and how she would handle the situations that she previously struggled with – all the answers, techniques, etc. are totally reasonable and seemed sincere. If these issues were resolved, she’d be fantastic, but there’s always a risk that it won’t be any different or won’t be for long. I’m really torn on what to do. She’s someone that you also just feel for and want to see succeed. If I were to say yes, it would be on a really short leash and she’s fine with that – just wants a chance to prove that it would be different.

    Any thoughts or any similar experiences?

    1. Reba*

      I don’t have experience with this exact scenario, but based on other scenarios I would consider it from the perspectives of the coworkers this person used to antagonize. I imagine some were relieved when she left, and even if she has changed, bringing her back sends a message. If you brought her back, would you be able to silo her work somehow so that you protect them from her?

      Also, is she the one who reached out to you about returning? (this seems bold to me) If she had not been in contact at all, would you have been thinking, hm, I wish I could rehire Lucinda?

      1. Second Chances*

        Thanks! I’m definitely keeping these folks in mind! When she was let go, I had spoken with them and they were worried it was their fault (it wasn’t) and expressed that things had been getting better with her. If I decide to bring her back, I would chat with them on it as I don’t want them to feel uncomfortable or resentful. We’re fully remote and she’d be in the same department, but not on the same team with them, so they’d have little interaction.

        She is the one that reached out. We’re a small company and she reached out to me (her direct manager), my manager (who was hers for a time before I moved into my role), and one of our owners. The decision is for me to make as it’s my department and I have no pressure to make a certain decision from either of them. They all feel similar to me, though – conflicted, wanting the best for her.

        I don’t think I would have thought to reach out to her to return, but all the info I had in front of me was what had last happened at the job and not what she’s worked on since that time. For a bit more context, she was going through some issues in her personal life, which bled over into work. Before that happened, things were much better. As part of her time since working here, she’s worked both on creating better habits in her personal life and working on the specific issues that occurred at work.

        1. WellRed*

          Hmm, you’re making an awful lot of excuses here for someone who sounds awful to work with, to the point you had to fire her.

        2. BRR*

          It’s normal to feel bad for having to fire someone. Those are really big problems. I wouldn’t bring her back unless she had an incredibly unique skill set that you needed. You’re going to be very stressed monitoring her and those lingering doubts will always be there (for good reason). And you might just have to fire her again at the end of the day.

    2. LGC*

      (I’m writing this assuming you’re not in a company with extremely high turnover.)

      Like, I want to give people second chances, but…I’m really wary.

      The other thing is – what’s her plan to repair the damage she’s already done with people who are there? It’s not just you, it’s also the entire team she’d be working with. This might be easier if there’s been a lot of turnover, but if not…that’s going to be difficult as well.

      You can definitely wish her well, and you should wish her well. Honestly, I think she’s a decent person from the way you described her, and you should give her the best recommendation possible. But I don’t think you should re-hire her at least until she has a proven track record elsewhere.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Would you be able to quickly fire her if she resorts to her old problems? You sound like the kind of manager that would give her chance after chance while your good employees suffer (exhibit A is that you are considering rehiring her now).

      Because I really doubt that ‘personally’ working on her problems for less than a year (and not in a job) would have lasting change.

      Are you okay with good workers (who are tired of putting up with her) leaving because you feel sorry for her and hired her back.

      Why do you feel sorry for her, but not the coworkers she put through hell?

    4. Choggy*

      I think people can change, I know I did when a coworker and I had a mediated meeting with our (new) manager over some issues we had with each other. We were able to air our grievances, and agreed to leave the past and move forward in a positive way. I can say I have really tried and so has he, while it’s still not perfect, our working relationship has definitely improved. I have my moments, but am now more aware of how I may come across, I have a sarcastic personality which most get, but some don’t. And since we are remote and only communicating over email/chat/phone, I have to be even more careful. Being willing to hear the problem and understand how I made someone feel was not easy, but ultimately, my job is about helping people do their jobs, so I’m always willing to at least try.

  116. mreasy*

    The Reddit thread (posted below) about an employee whose coworker was harassing them about being small and thin and continually trying to force food on them – and then when they reported it they faced retaliation from management – has me wondering. Would they have a legal case? They aren’t in a protected class, right?

    1. PollyQ*

      (I think your link is still in moderation, but I’m NAL or any kind of expert anyway, so I’ll just dive right in regardless.)

      ADA doesn’t just cover harassment based on disability, it also covers harassment based on perception of disability, even if there isn’t actually one. So if the person’s being harassed based on the belief that they have an eating disorder (or something like that), then that behavior might well be prohibited.

  117. No I do radiation safety not that kind of safety*

    Apologies and warning that this post could be triggering or just difficult for some. And Alison if this veers too political please get rid of it. (I’m in the US)

    We are in the process of building an addition at my work place. This addition mainly consists of a shielded radiation treatment room with walls made of ~3ft of concrete. A few months ago a coworker asked me (I am the radiation safety officer for the facility so the design and construction falls under my supervision) if any thought had been given to turning this room into a shelter that could be used in an active shooter incident, especially since we have some patients with limited mobility (Run, Hide Fight Doesn’t work if you can’t run). It was something I brought up to my direct management but it didn’t go anywhere at the time. Thursday morning we had a construction progress meeting and I took 30 seconds after the meeting to bring up the idea with those who control the purse strings and they think it’s a fabulous idea.
    We have a preliminary idea of how we could accomplish disabling the automatic door opener from the inside but are wondering if we aren’t thinking about all aspects.
    If your workplace was going to include a safe hiding spot in its design what other considerations would you want to see besides how the door is secured?
    We’ve already thought of a few such as stashing some extra blankets, water, and first aid supplies in the room.
    What’s the most sensitive way to communicate to employees about this once we do get the go ahead?

    1. Cedrus Libani*

      Land line for calling the police? Cell phones don’t appreciate radiation shielding, and in any case, you don’t want to rely on someone having their phone with them.

    2. Cobalt*

      Hello from another radiation safety professional!
      Ditto on the land line being essential.
      Is this an external radiation hazard facility or is there a risk of contamination? If the latter, I would not store water or first aid equipment inside. One other thing to make sure is that whatever changes you make to the door mechanism would not reduce radiation safety interlocks or prevent egress from the area under other emergencies.

  118. BadApple*

    Career advice?
    I’m 24 and working as a teacher. I was going to go back for a PhD this year, but had a bit of a medical emergency. I’ve teaching (which I have experience in) but it’s pretty bad right now because I officially work overtime in terms of number of classes taught and number of students per class. My district is also underfunded and we don’t have textbooks*, so I create everything from scratch all the time. Being a first-year teacher is always difficult, but I’m not sure I want to stick this out another year to see if it gets any better. If I could leave whenever, I’d be more apt to try another school, but it seems like it is very detrimental to any teaching career to leave in the middle of the year period. (Also, my students are going through a lot of Covid-related life trauma, and I’m going to teach in the cafeteria when we reopen because I have too many students with social-distancing, but those are stressors for another day.) I’m on anxiety meds because of all this, lol.
    This is my first “professional” job, I’ve worked retail, taught English abroad, done professional tutoring and TA’ed college classes. I feel like I should try working in curriculum design, translation, editing, or something language-related next year (my formation is in Spanish and Portuguese).
    Does anyone have any advice? I really like teaching and have been in teaching roles for the next three years, and would love to do PhD research. But, I feel like I’m drowning at my job. Also, how should I formulate my teaching experience to get a job? I honestly am a good employee with data and person-oriented things, but I’m not sure how to present my skills so that they are attractive to the private sector (comforting and reorienting parents, designing lessons, running IT for all my kids, lol)

    1. BadApple*

      Oh, I should clarify it’s my first year full time in public schools, and also I have a thesis-focused MA (in a social science). {Also… district still hasn’t gotten enough computers for all our kids…}

    2. onyxzinnia*

      I don’t have any advice for the teaching challenges, my sympathies there. From my friends who are teachers, the first year teaching is one of the hardest in a teacher’s career during normal times. I can’t imagine during COVID. Does your school district have any type of teacher mentoring program or EAP? I agree it would not be a great look to leave your current class in the middle of the school year, but you could always keep an eye for out for 2021-2022 school year openings at another school.

      As for private sector transition, you might consider something like Instructional Design. Many companies have learning and development departments which seem like a natural transition for someone with a background in teaching. Alternatively, you could look for companies that serve the K-12 market (like textbook publishers, software, etc.) where your industry experience would be valued. Or perhaps work in local government with educational policy.

      1. BadApple*

        Thank you for your reply. My big concern is really “committing” to another year; I wouldn’t leave now. I am enjoying creating things, so I’ll have to look into K-12 software and Instructional Design. I think technical writing would be cool too, like writing instruction manuals. I didn’t think about educational policy, that’s interesting too. Thanks again.

  119. JEB*

    What to do when you get a promotion and an unsolicited job offer at the same time…kinda.

    Ive been at privately owned but growing midwestern US company for about 2 years. I was brought in at a Senior Mgr level but have a lot of experience so I excelled pretty quick. Almost right away I started building the need for a Director level position above me, and started acting in that capacity at least partly. Corporate decided to create the role, and encouraged me to apply and I interviewed (as did others from outside). To be honest, Ive been doing the job for the last 4 months already (w/o the title and w/o comp). I interviewed with the President last week and I believe an offer will come early this week.

    At the same time this is happening, an executive from my previous company who is now C suite level now at a Fortune 500 company reached out to me on linkedin saying he had a role open he thinks I would be perfect for (as he knows me and my work). It’s the same Dir role as my possible promotion, but in an industry that has significantly better comp packages. I interviewed 3 times w/ them since and all have been positive since I’m known, however there’s still one more round left (an interview with peers). That COULD happen this week but and offer is probably 2 weeks away . This option would be life changing if it worked out on many levels, but would require a relo (which I’m ok with). It would be a pay increase of probably 50% (when you add bonuses). My current company will offer me about 15-20% under going market for Directors as they’re not known to be high payers. I don’t think I would have much room to negotiate, and wont have an offer in hand to use by then.

    So, I don’t want to accept my promotion and resign 2 weeks later as it feels wrong to me but I also don’t want to take a promotional pay increase thats lower than my market. I plan on doing what Ive learned here: Delay accepting the promotion till I give the new place time to work an offer if they’re interested, I disclosed what was going on at my current job to the new place during an update call on Wednesday so he would aware ahead of time but there are some internal constraints with the new company as they have to reallocate the person in the role currently.

    I guess its a good problem to have but I want to do the right thing. Any advice?
    (Sorry this is long)

    1. Picard*

      Allison has given scripts on here several times for this company A company B situation. Basically, take the offer from your company when it comes but if the other offer comes through, you simply let them know that something else came up that you could not turn down. Also try to work out a long enough notice period so you dont leave them high and dry.

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