open thread – February 26-27, 2021

by Alison Green on February 26, 2021

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. TKB from Texas*

    Last week I posted about a recruiter (this was someone internal, it would have been better to title her as a talent manager) sending me an outage map of my neighborhood after I requested postponing an interview due to the Texas utility crisis. Here’s the (unexciting) update:

    I responded and pulled out of the interview process. I am currently employed and while I thought of this to be an interesting opportunity, I wouldn’t consider my excitement level through the roof. Against every petty bone in my body, I did not bring up the utility map. I kept it polite and boilerplate. Her response to me dropping out was also polite and boilerplate, so my hope is that the outage map email was truly been an ignorant and insensitive misstep. It’s not the juicy redemption story I wish I could share, but that’s what happened!

    That said, I will be keeping my ear to the ground for reports of this company. This industry is well connected in my city and I’m apart of a number of groups. If a report of this company acting ill-intentioned is mentioned, I’ll have the email chain to provide another example of unfavorable behavior.

    Thanks to everyone and their well wishes for the situation in Texas. I am currently sitting in my home with power on, water running and an Internet signal. To my fellow Texans, you have all been in my thoughts, here’s to the end of doomsdays!

    1. TKB from Texas*

      Adding a note: There were SO many replies (I think around 70!) That I felt I had to send an update. I couldn’t reply to everyone, but please know I did read every single comment!

      1. Jean*

        Thanks for the update! I’m glad to hear that you trusted your instincts and didn’t move forward. Just reading it set off all my “sketchy” alarms.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Thanks for the update! I think you did the right thing – it can be sooo tempting to give into your pettiness, but it would only feel good in the moment, the polite response was better for you in the long run.

  2. cabbagepants*

    What do you do when you’re interviewing with someone who wants to dive deeply into a specific topic that is only tangential to the job description, that you neither have nor ever claimed to have deep knowledge about?

    My initial take was that he wanted to see how I solved problems in general, and I did my best, but he kept wanting very specific answers and kept going well past the point where I was point-blank saying “I don’t know.”

    Specifics: I am interviewing for a general ruminant herder position. I have various experience, including llama grooming, though it’s not a llama- or grooming-centric position. My last interview was with a senior llama scientist. He wanted to talk about llama hair growth genetics. He rapidly got to the end of my knowledge, and I did my best to answer his questions (or how I’d go about answering them), but he just kept digging. “And at what stage during llama blastocyst formation is the LlA1 gene activated? Well, think it through.” Things like this.

    My industry has lots of people with bad social skills, and this was just one of several interviews for the position (the others went great!), so I’m comfortable chalking it up to “odd dude”… or worst case, well, I learned early that this is not the right role for me. But I want to hear your thoughts!

    1. ThatGirl*

      Maybe they want to know how you’d find that information? Sometimes those out-of-left-field questions are really more about your thought process – though I can’t say that for sure. But I’d probably answer it with something like “I don’t really know offhand, but if I needed to find out, I’d ask around for resources or do some searching on my own” — and mention any industry-specific resources, for instance.

      1. cabbagepants*

        I did that first, and talked through my thought process, but it didn’t satisfy them. Or sometimes his response was, “Well, why wouldn’t you check the Llama Gene Activation Timeline Database?” And I’d be like, Oh well I’ve never heard of that, but since you mention it, it does sound like a great place to get this kind of info!

        This felt like a fact quiz, not a “how do you think things through” interview.

        1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

          There are 2 possibilities: they already have a candidate in mind who isn’t you (see e.g. the episode of Friends where “Benjy” interviews Ross and two other candidates), who would presumably know the LGATD. Or – they pulled in someone to “interviewing” who for whatever reason was hyper-focused on some specific aspect and doesn’t really know how to interview people. I would probably chalk it up to an odd person (“dude”) but be alert to other flags.

          1. Joan Rivers*

            Sometimes someone just wants to show off what he knows. Not sure how to ask how his questions would apply to the job, but “would there be a lot of [xxx] in the job?” gets at the point.

            1. Hufflepuff hobbit*

              Concur. Also, my experience with a lot of senior people who study specific gene pathways is that that’s what they like to talk about, kinda no matter what they are supposed to be talking about

    2. A Brew Yet*

      I think you have to ask another person in the interview process about it. Just to put your mind at ease. Something like “Hey Chair of Ruminant Relations, I had a really tangential chat with Senior Llama Scientist. While I enjoyed meeting him and engaging with him in a llama pas de deux, I was a little thrown by some of his questions. His Big Bang Theory level of knowledge about llama genetics and his specific questions about the LlA1 gene left me with the impression that I was supposed to bring that level of knowledge to this role. Can you and I chat that through? I’d hate to think that I wouldn’t exceed your expectations in this role given my excellent Llama hair braiding experience and high level understanding of llama genetics.”

    3. Firecat*

      When this happened to me, it was because two SR leaders had different views of what the role would be and why.

      Eventually the hiring manager lost the right and I was not hired. It’s possible this is something hong similar – where this leader feels the science is much more important then others in the process do. She could be right or wrong. It’s weird they pushed once it was obvious you didn’t know the answer though – I’d chalk that up to bad interviewing skills.

      1. Postdoc*

        That’s what it sounds like to me as well. This person is under the impression that deep knowledge of Llama genetics is essential to the role. It may be worth while to think about how his position relates to the one being hired for and whether this is something that should concern you.

    4. chemanon*

      I had a similar interview a couple months ago. I am 5 years out of grad school, yet the interviewer kept asking me specifics about my graduate work. It felt like my defense… (and no, my graduate work wasn’t related to the job lol). I bs’d my way through because really, who would remember specifics 5 years out??

      My favorite exchange –
      Interviewer: do you think what you learned in grad school helped you in your sales role?
      Me: No. My previous role in the lab for that my specific product line helped me prepare for selling that product line.

      Anyway, because of that decided the job wouldn’t be a right fit and dropped out of the running soon after. they were shocked. (??)

      1. Former Usher*

        That reminds me of the time where an interviewer was quizzing me on which textbooks I used in graduate school. When I couldn’t remember one (probably because that professor taught from his notes and rarely referred to the book!), he proudly told me that he remembered every textbook he had ever used.

        1. Mimi*

          “That’s lovely for you. I tend to forget details that are no longer relevant to my life, in favor of remembering things that are currently useful or important for me.”

          (Would I actually say that in an interview? Maybe not. But I’d be very tempted.)

          1. irene adler*

            Yeah, tempting.
            I’d probably stop at “That’s lovely for you.”
            And wonder how bad it would be to work with/for someone who’s claim to fame is good recall of unimportant things.

      2. MacGillicuddy*

        I had a similar experience of an interviewer asking about things that were more than 20 years in the past. Sometimes there’s an ulterior motive.

        I worked for many years in the education field, moved, took a course in something different, and changed careers completely. None of my education jobs are on my resume. Neither are my graduation dates. But this interviewer couldn’t get past my MS degree in education. Kept pressing with things like “but why didn’t you ever teach when you got your degree in Education?” Told him that I did “for a while” but changed careers. “But why…?” Etc.

        I finally said “you know, I have over 25 years of really great experience in llama grooming. That is why I’m applying for your llama grooming job.”

        He mumbled something about how “yes, your resume shows that you have excellent llama experience.”

        I really think his intent was to figure out how old I was. I never told him how many years I taught, or on the “in-between” jobs (also not on my resume) before I settled into llama grooming.

        There were other red flags and I didn’t take the job. But thinking back, I wish I’d been more direct and asked him “are you trying to find out how many years I worked in education? Why do you keep asking about that, and what does it have to do with the job I’m applying for?”

        I would have loved to watch him dig his way out of that.

    5. TimeTravlR*

      I had a very similar interview once. They wanted to fill position A but started asking questions that were more suited to a more senior level in a similar position. I did my best but ultimately, I didn’t have the level of knowledge or experience so was not offered the position. Some years later, I took a different position with that same entity and the hiring manager with the crazy questions actually brought it up and said, “We really missed out by not hiring you sooner.” So, redemption at least!

      1. cabbagepants*

        I kind of wonder if this is happening. Clearly there is a lot of interest at this company in llama hair and so when I mentioned llama grooming, they got excited that I could be their next llama hair scientist. Llama hair is great and I love it, but their role requires 10 years of experience. While I have that in general ruminant herding, I definitely don’t have it for llama hair specifically.

    6. Malarkey01*

      I think you can say “I don’t know, is that something that this position handles/does/will involve?” is a way to find out if you misunderstood the position and assuming you didn’t, get the interviewer back on track. Even with good interviewers you sometimes can start down a path and lose a little focus on the position. I’ve unfortunately done this a time or two when I hire for overlapping or different levels where I start asking digging into how far someone’s knowledge goes just to figure out which job to slot them into or a case of woah she’s here for llama groomer but man she’d be great at llama hair replacement.

      1. cabbagepants*

        D’oh! That’s the perfect question to have asked and I didn’t ask it! But maybe I can follow up with the hiring manager assuming they haven’t already ruled me out.

    7. JustaTech*

      Oh, I’d call that the “I love talking about my very very very specific area of expertise!” person. Scientists in general have a bad habit about doing this – especially if they’ve recently come from academia, where it’s a combination of teaching through questions and constantly talking about your super exciting (to you) research.

      If everyone else was normal I wouldn’t call it a red flag, but it would be a point of note about what that person is probably going to be like to work with. Possibly just awkward and excitable, possibly annoyingly egotistical (“only *my* interests count”).

      1. Past life scientist*

        (Former) scientist here, this is spot on. Best way to interview with a scientist is to ask them questions, to which they’ll fill up the whole interview slot answering. Time will fly (for them) and they’ll be happy they got to talk about their passion for 30 min – 1 hour straight and look back very favorably on the interview.

    8. Yellow Warbler*

      I felt completely terrorized by an interviewer who was aggressive about this. He kept getting louder with each back-and-forth until he was basically yelling at me. I went back to my car and sobbed.

      To give actual context, I was interviewing for a technical writer job, and he was asking me to explain complex calculus concepts. It was like I’d wandered into an engineering interview by mistake.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        My first tech writing interview was with someone who was very enthusiastic about my generalist background, but then HIS manager showed up and started reeling me en engineering specifics. Very obviously he wanted someone with a related STEM degree. I was actually glad to be turned down for that role, because it’s no fun being caught between a manager and a grand-manager with different definitions of the job!

      2. Katrinka*

        That definitely sounds like he thought the position required an engineer-level of knowledge. And that his anger was more directed at the people in his company that didn’t agree with him. I’ve seen that before.

    9. Esmeralda*

      I had a similar interview a few years ago. I ticked all the boxes (100%, that NEVER happens!) in the posting and very quickly got a phone screen and then a phone interview. One of the committee members focused just like that on an area I know about, but I’m no expert and I don’t have experience addressing the related issues. I figured that this was an area they really needed help addressing, it wasn’t in the posting so no way to know that, and no matter how fabulous I was otherwise, it was going to be hard for me to get that job.
      I didn’t get the job, and the person they hired does have experience in that unexpected area.

    10. New Mom*

      Is it possible that there was internal misalignment about the role you were applying for? or was it a brand new role? I ask because at my org, sometimes we will create a new role, let’s say we have Llama Groomers and Llama Feed Experts and we decide to create a Llama Liason for both. Well, the Llama Groomers might want the Liason to have x, y, and z skills while the Feed Experts want the Liason to have a, b, and c skills.

    11. meyer lemon*

      I had a weird co-op interview like this. I was a second-year undergrad student, this was a federal research assistant position. I did not claim to have any specific knowledge about the research area (something pretty niche that wouldn’t typically come up in any undergrad program). But they kept digging about what my background was in the field, even though I thought it was pretty clear from my resume that my background was non-existent. It came up over and over again in the interview. It still confuses me now. I have to imagine that either there was some kind of mix-up about what job I was applying for or they had one interview script that they used for every candidate and would not deviate from it.

      1. meyer lemon*

        My experience of that interview was also informed by the fact that it was held in a sweltering underground bunker in the dead of summer. Sometime around the fourth question about my previous work experience in the niche field, I was starting to wonder if I was actually in hell.

    12. MissDisplaced*

      It makes me wonder if lama hair growth genetics really IS a requirement for the job? Or maybe that particular person wants it to be a requirement for the job. But yeah, that’s kind of weird. I suppose I’d answer with something like: “That is a little beyond my expertise of lama hair growth, so I’d have to do some more research to familiarize myself within this area. Is this something that is needed often?”

      It hasn’t happened to me in a while, but I have had that happen in an interview about a particular software or skill that was listed as more of a “nice to have,” but then somehow became essential.

    13. LabTechNoMore*

      I’ve had a variant of this kind of interview, where the interviewer would also reject the answer, regardless what I said. (e.g. “What is PCR?” “Polymerase Chain Reaction.” “No. It’s used to copy DNA.”) It was a bizarre and deeply upsetting experience.

    14. Emilitron*

      My sympathies! Don’t let the one guy keep you from taking the job if the rest of the deal seems good. I had a really weird interview once where it seemed like the PhD-from-fancy-school scientist was being a jerk basically to prove that fancy schools are fancier than mine. He asked if a device I’d used was version A or B, because I’d said A and he was so certain he’d read that it was B. It is absolutely impossible to prove one way or the other, it makes zero difference in function or design, and the only possible solution would be to go to a computer and google it for this a particular site. Yet he insisted he was right, and when I explained that there was no way to tell and no measurable difference it would make, and no way we could conclude anything based on logic alone, he just would not drop it. So I had to navigate the politics of insisting he was wrong (which maybe they were looking for in a crackerjack new hire?! or maybe I’m supposed to be respectful?!) vs shrugging and saying it was unprovable, and convincing him to let it drop. Turns out I was reading way more into the situation than necessary, he was just a smart guy working in a fairly routine R&D lab who was enjoying dragging out the technical conversation for as long as possible. I took the job, and he was not even the biggest “character” on the site; aside from a few quirks a super nice guy who was not at all the elite-school critic he seemed to be. But wow was I weirded out after the interview! (I went back and read up on it, initial design had been B but they realized A was cheaper and same result so they built it as A, you would only think it was B if you had been assiduously reading science news 30 years ago)
      So if he’s not the primary person you’d be working with, don’t let this be the red flag that makes you turn down the offer. And just because he was critical don’t assume you bombed the interview.

  3. Ann O'Nemity*

    What’s your favorite planner/journal?

    I use a Moleskine basic journal to keep work notes in a bullet-ish format. Recently I’ve been wishing the journal had built-in annual or monthly calendars. I don’t want the style that breaks all note-taking into days; as some days I take tons of notes and others not at all. I’ve tried online shopping for new planner/journal styles and there are too many options! So I’m turning to the AAM community – what are your best recommendations?

    1. Escaped a Work Cult*

      I really like the Rocketbook Panda planner since I get up track and erase things as I go on. As ADHD person, this planner actually works for me so I’m singing praises.

    2. Elementary Fan*

      leuchtturm1917 is my favorite because it has page numbers and some perforated pages at the back so you can tear them out. It also has a table of contents in the beginning.

      I recommend looking into bullet journal techniques. You can jot down a quick “future log” with important dates to remember.

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        Thanks for the recommendations! I actually used to follow the Bullet Journal format pretty faithfully, but have eased up on all the specific signifiers and migration stuff. So I say “bullet-ish.”

      2. RabbitRabbit*

        Do you have a good gel/felt-tip pen recommendation for this journal? I have a Leuchtturm1917, and my beloved Pilot G2 (0.7) smears like no one’s business in there, especially when I try to use a ruler to make grids.

        1. no dogs on the moon*

          i had great luck with the STAEDTLER triplus fineliners (most pens in this vein will do in my experience – michaels has a store-brand version that’s cheaper and also worked great) and the papermate inkjoys!

          1. Ann O'Nemity*

            Love these. I was at a conference a few years back and saw a fellow attendee pull out a multicolor 20-pack. I was so impressed I ended up ordering a pack myself. They’re pretty awesome, but will bleed through thinner paper.

          2. Anax*

            I swear by Papermate InkJoy gel pens. They say on the package that they “dry 3x as fast”, and they really do dry quickly enough – at least on regular paper! – that I don’t have any smearing problems, and as a leftie, those are constant with most pens.

            (Also, fairly cheap, many colors, fairly slow to dry out, readily available online or at most drugstores and office supply stores. The one downside is that they do NOT dry quickly on glossy paper, like some greeting cards.)

        2. AllTheBirds*

          Pilot Frixion Erasable Gel Pens are life. Lots of colors if you like that sort of thing (I nerd out on the turquoise).

        3. MissCoco*

          Uniball Signo for similarity to G2 – you’ll still get some schmearing, but much less. At least that’s true of the 0.38s .

          Also seconding pilot frixion, smudge -free plus the erasibility is great for those times your ruler slips while marking grids.

    3. OyHiOh*

      My desk book is a “standard agenda” book. It has all the months across the top of each page, and all possible dates for all months under that. Then a double solid line, and ruled pages under that. It’s intended to be used as a bullet journal although I don’t. Mark the month/day when I get to work, jot notes as needed.

    4. JennyFour*

      I just draw monthly calendars in the front of my bullet journal (I use a dot-grid moleskine notebook). It takes a little time but I only have to do it once a year! I use a two-page spread for each month.

    5. WorkNowPaintLater*

      Currently using a Markings (C.R. Gibson) Freestyle Planning Journal. 3 ribbons, comes with ruler with stencils. Each page is a dot grid on one side, a small calendar with a to-do list and other preprinted items on the other page. I’ve been using the dotted side to make a weekly calendar and use the preprinted calendar to mark the week these two pages are covering.

      1. 653-CXK*

        I bought a similar journal from Markings and it’s fantastic. Circle the day, use the ruler to make little tables, and I have information at a glance without having to rifle through numerous files.

    6. Zephy*

      I use a Leuchtturm1917, and that’s pretty much where my system divorces itself from the “official” Bullet Journal system. I personally don’t find month- or year-at-a-glance spreads very useful, having spent a lot of time over the last couple of years setting them up only to never look at them again, so my journal doesn’t have them this year. But uh, if you have a blank journal, what’s stopping you from just making the spreads you want to use?

      The “planner” part of my journal is just 52 weekly two-page spreads, and I note the page where the month starts in the table of contents at the beginning. A typical week involves five 8×24 boxes and one 8×12 box for the weekend; one line per hour of the day, easy to write in a keyword for the appointment scheduled at that time (usually just the client’s last name). Scheduled on the hour gets written on the left, on the half-hour gets written on the right. Use a highlighter to mark the hours I’m working.

      If you’re mostly using your journal to take notes for work, why not just have a rolling daily page? Take whatever notes you need for the day, skip a line or two, start the next day’s notes. You can draw lines to demarcate where one day ends and another begins, put the date right above where the notes start. Wide washi tape is easy to wrap around the edge of a page to mark sections, however you want to designate that – maybe you mark notes about the Johnson account with blue tape, notes from the budget meetings with green tape, whatever.

      1. Ann O'Nemity*

        Thanks, great info! Here’s a few specific responses:

        “What’s stopping you from just making the spreads you want to use?”

        Honestly… laziness. I never liked manually creating the calendar pages. And I never liked the Bullet Journal calendar list format as much as the standard calendar boxes style. I was thinking that for the price of a Moleskine, I could find a journal that already has the calendars built in.

        “If you’re mostly using your journal to take notes for work, why not just have a rolling daily page? Take whatever notes you need for the day, skip a line or two, start the next day’s notes.”

        Yep, this is exactly what I do now. Usually I like to start a new page, unless it’s like 1-2 lines only and then I’ll draw a line for the next day. Never tried the tape, but I do like to use different colored pens. I’m a sucker for pens.

        1. TortalHareBrain*

          I purchased a monthly planner from Plum Paper and added notes pages to each month for my husband. A complicated system didn’t work for him, but this kept things in groups enough while giving him a general idea of the date/relation to when the next thing was happening.

          I prefer their horizontal notes/days layout as I make a to-do list for the week in notes, and use the days as a schedule. I tend to keep meeting notes and other things in a separate notebook since I have far fewer notes than just general to-dos.

        2. Makare*

          You could also print out half-page calendar spreads and tape/paste them into the journal where you want them. Less work, but still making the format work for you, and no need to buy a whole new notebook. My art teacher turned me onto this, like why buy a different sketchbook for every kind of medium? If you want to do some watercolors in your drawing sketchbook, cut a piece of watercolor paper to fit and tape it into the sketchbook, and ta-da! Instant mixed media sketchbook.

      2. RabbitRabbit*

        Repeating my question from above – what pen do you use with yours? I find the Pilot G2 (0.7) smears a lot, especially when I draw grids with a ruler.

            1. Constance Lloyd*

              They’re a little spendier, but I like the copic markers. They use archival ink that won’t bleed if I drip water on it (a recurring problem) and come in more colors than the papermates.

      3. TardyTardis*

        I bought a $12 Diary from Amazon which has the monthly calendar and the daily page in ruled paper. They still split a page on Sat/Sun, which annoys me, but the only book that doesn’t do that is the Brownline Standard Diary (that I know of) but that doesn’t stay open very well.

    7. MMMMmmmmmmmMMM*

      I found that I like to build mine from purchased printouts from etsy and use a 6-ringed binder (I have one from kikki-k). That way, I can customize the insert to what I want. For example, I found I like a one page week with grids on the opposite page, but I also don’t use a monthly calendar. Be careful, because it can be a rabbit hole of small purchases from etsy!

      1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

        This is what I do. I ordered mine from a European shop on Etsy so the printouts come in both A4 and A5 pdf sizes. I have a tinier A5 binder for this and LOVE it because I can just print out the pages I need and in the number I need.

        1. Constance Lloyd*

          I do this, but instead of a binder I just glue them into my rhodia. It’s only a few pages so it doesn’t get too bulky and I set it up so the calendar grid is on the left and a blank page for any notes I might want to add is in the right.

      2. Happy Lurker*

        I tried doing that a few years back and it didn’t work for me. I carry mine back and forth daily and couln’t find a binder I really liked.

        For the last 6 or 7 years I have made a hardcover book through Blurb. They have a planner option. I pick the size I like, populate the pages with the pre-printed planner option and the dates go in automatically. I then add pictures all over the place, so I have happy things to look at. I love that I can pick a few great options and have my pictures too! I add monthly and annual calendars, tons of lined pages, colorful flourishes and my favorite pictures on the front and back. The planner pages are in the week format that works for me and there a NO LINES. I just can’t stand daily lines. There are either never enough or not enough space to write in them. It takes me a few hours every year, but in 25 years of using a planner they are my favorite.
        It’s the size that has always worked for me. If I had a different profession I would probably need a much larger planner.

    8. Two Dog Night*

      Levenger has a line called Circa that you might want to look at. It’s kind of pricy, but it’s very customizable. You could get a bunch of blank pages (there are multiple formats) and add yearly and/or monthly calendars, if that would work.

      That said, I’ve switched from paper to using OneNote–one page per week tracking my to-do list and activities, notes taken on separate pages and linked from the journal page. This is the first electronic method I’ve been happy with, and I’m enjoying not dealing with paper.

      1. SyFyGeek*

        And very similar to Circa, Office Depot has Tul and Staples has Arc- they’re all interchangeable and can be customized. I’ve been using one for 2 years now- I call it my Franken Binder- I use parts from different suppliers to put in exactly what I want. I use a small binder to takes notes on the go, then pull the page out and put it in the big binder.

    9. EMP*

      I have a Hightide Diary Iris that I love. It’s a weekly planner but it has built in monthly calendars at the front, lays flat when you open it, and has plenty of space per day for planning and notes. I used to use a Moleskine. Last year I switched from Moleskin to a different Hightide weekly planner (the minute manager), this year I tried the Diary Iris and I like this one the best of the ones I’ve used!

    10. Rainy*

      I use a Passion Planner. I need the appointment-style time grid, and I like the monthly and annual calendars and the space for a to-do list and notes on each page. I’ve been a Passion Planner for four years now!

      I honestly don’t care so much about the actual “passion plan” and while I sometimes fill out the reflection pages, at this point I just really like the layout and I’m used to it. So don’t think getting one will turn you into a person who fills out reflection pages lol.

      1. Putting the "pro" in "procrastinate"*

        +1 to all of this. I really like the weekly layout of the Passion Planner, with the appointment-style grid and the space for to-do lists and other notes. I don’t care as much about the passion plan stuff, and I cross out the headings on the “reflection” pages and just use them for my own notes.

      2. Quinalla*

        I like the passion planner too! I’ve moved to mostly electronic for my calendar/to dos/etc. but I still usually get a passion planner every year just for random note taking at meetings, doing some of the reflection and long term planning as I love that on paper, etc. because it is reasonably priced, nice looking and I like to support the company.

    12. Not_Kate_Winslet*

      Check out the Clever Fox Planner Pro. It’s a perfect (IMO) mix of pre-printed and free-form/blank pages.

    13. Donkey Hotey*

      Just filled my fist Leuchtturm 1917 in December. I decided to splurge on a Citrus Book Bindery custom journal for 2021-22. Love the paper options and made to the page count I want. (I was scared I’d run out of pages on the Leuchtturm)
      And I hear you about bullet-ish. May the devotees of Saint Ryder forgive me, but I can’t go with the whole “you have to make your icons this way” stuff, but I love being able to create my own layouts.

    14. Kage*

      I love the Commit30 brand and have their Deluxe Planner currently for my work/personal life tracking (small, woman-owned company). I don’t use the appointments/times that much as my Outlook calendar does that mess and is always changing. There’s not a ton in that one for notes but I’ve been looking at potentially getting the Daily one as well for my project log/notes.

    15. Binderry*

      It may not fit your needs, but like Agendio, which let’s you create your own planner and customize it. It’s a bit pricey, but it’s a once a year splurge that is personalized to my needs

    16. subjective milk hotel*

      I like the Hobonichi Day Free! I have the same problem where I don’t like my planners to be too structured. The Day Free has all the calendar pages at the beginning and the rest is just blank grid paper for me to use as needed, which is great for my use case (mostly notes/lists/etc. I’m not huge on creating spreads from scratch for work-related stuff).

    17. I'm just here for the cats*

      I use Happy Planner. They are very pretty but functional. I like the vertical layout but they have other types and sizes. It’s great because it is disc-bound, so you can remove, rearrange, and add pages. They also have a wide variety of accessories and other companion pages. The down side is there are very few neutral options as they tend to be geared for women. In the last few years they have gotten a bit more neutral but I do wish they were not as gendered (lots of colors, sparkly, drawings of women).

      Another thing that kinda bugs me is that the planners are not standard size. Half letter/ A5, Letter, Personal size are the standard planer sizes. They are always a few inches off.

      There are huge communities online dedicated to Happy Planner. From everything to using it functionally to decorating it with stickers.

    18. kt*

      I loved using the Leuchtturm etc back when I did, but I’ve recently switched to Silk & Sonder, a small company that sends out monthly planners that are inspired by bullet journaling. It’s not perfect, but recently it’s been working well for me as it has 4 months of forward-looking calendar, a weekly spread, lots of pages for notes, and other habit-tracking etc that I pick and choose from. It’s a bit focused on “wellness” so may not serve everyone. I got bored of drawing my own spreads, and this has the ones I use and ones I don’t. It’s also pretty and I like getting something pretty in the mail and reviewing my month regularly.

      1. kt*

        When I was picking a planner recently I also checked out Cloth & Paper, which has *beautiful* to me planners and planner pages and a lot of customizability and also monthly subscription boxes of stationery and pens; I went with Silk & Sonder for now because i had a discount code :)

    19. James*

      Depends on the purpose.

      I keep a blank sketch book for notes on skills I’m learning–more or less a way to keep track of data so I can find it again. I find that the act of writing things down helps me as much as re-reading my notes.

      For scheduling I keep a planner with pages showing monthly and weekly schedules. I also keep a small notebook for daily activities. Sounds cumbersome, but it’s really not. I use the planner at my desk (which I’m not always at), and the small notebook I keep on me when I’m on jobsites.

      I’ve tried the bullet journal thing and a few other methods, and they all seem overly complicated. Then again, a lot of my work is either due by COB some specific date, or not amenable to planning (if you could plan a spill or an injury they wouldn’t happen).

    20. Intermittent Introvert*

      I love Agendio planner/calendars. You can completely personalize them on their website and they save your choices from the year before.

    21. MissDisplaced*

      I’ve tried a lot of different things, but I keep going back to a simple legal tablet pad, which I then tear off and keep stapled together by month and store in a “notes” folder. I’m cheap I guess.

      Basically, at the start of every month, I type out and print my “to do” project list of about 10-12 things, at the top it says MONTH/YR in a big box. I printout this update weekly for boss reporting. All handwritten tablet notes for that same month get stapled to that printout unless they belong to a specific project (which is sometimes the case). I usually keep each packet of notes for about 6 months before tossing.

  4. Confused Anon*

    In my previous position, my boss would say things just to get me to react. One week she would tell me that I’m doing a great job and that she wants to promote me, the next she was telling me that my work was horrible and there would be no promotion. She would also pit me and my coworker against each, but claim that our old boss did that. After one particularly stressful meeting, I almost started crying in the meeting and she exclaimed, “There! Finally! Some emotion!”

    In my current job, I have coworkers who try the same thing sometimes. I don’t know if they just like pushing buttons, or what, but it’s annoying. They can tell that I’m upset because the one talks to the other and they stop for the moment. I would report it to my boss, but she is close friends with them, so it would be pointless.

    Am I missing something? I’m quiet, so maybe they just want to engage, but it seems a little toxic.

    I’m told that I’m a hard worker, so what’s the problem? Am I just in bad places?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Yeah, you’ve just been unlucky with those places.

      There are plenty of industries and career fields where being emotional and pushing buttons are just. plain. wrong.

    2. Reba*

      Yes, I think you have just landed in two bad environments in a row. I’m sorry, it sounds stressful. Some people really do enjoy needling other people and then they have plausible deniability for being cruel, because they were “just giving you a hard time.”

    3. Jean*

      This behavior isn’t caused by anything you’re doing. Some people just enjoy trying to get a rise out of others, because it makes them feel powerful and important. This goes double when it’s someone who is normally quiet and reserved. Again, that doesn’t make this your fault or something you’re asking for. People try it with me too and I usually shut it down with gray-rocking – over the years I’ve become VERY good at doing this, and they hate it, which makes them lose interest in me as a target.

    4. A Simple Narwhal*

      Your old boss sounds terrible. I’ve struggled in the past to please an unpleasable boss, and it’s only with distance and the benefit of hindsight that I was able to recognize that it wasn’t me, and no amount of trying was going to make things work.

      As for your current coworkers (who don’t sound great), I’d recommend trying your boss at least once. Present it first as asking her advice on how to handle something: “hey I was hoping you could give me your opinion on something. I’ve found that my coworkers tend to run hot and cold with me – one moment they’re my best friend [give examples], the next they’re making rude comments/personal attacks/etc [give examples], it honestly feels like they’re purposely pushing my buttons. I’ve found it disruptive to getting work done and forming a professional relationship with them, but I want to make sure I’m not missing something before I address it with them. Have you noticed this, or is there any insight you could offer on how best to approach them?” (Of course tweak this to better fit your voice and the actual situation.)

      It brings the situation to her attention, but not in a “I haven’t tried to fix the problem, solve it for me” way. It also offers the opportunity for her to let you know if there is something you’re missing, or if it is behavior that alarms her and she’s just going to handle it herself.

      Also, there’s a chance you’ve just had bad luck and run into two bad workplaces in a row. Culture fit is truly a thing that can affect your ability to be successful and happy at a job, if it turns out you’re at a place that is just ball-busty (and I can’t really tell what you’re coworkers are actually doing from what you posted, so maybe a little more info would clarify what’s going on) and that just doesn’t work for you, it would absolutely be ok to look for a new job, even if your current job is otherwise great.

    5. Buni*

      My very first ever job, 16yrs old working the till at a high street pharmacy, my (much older, male) boss asked me a specific question and, when I answered it, said “Well you’ve just got an answer for everything, don’t you!”.

      Dude. You…asked me a question.

      My point is, some people are just ass-hats, and there are people who will deliberately pick on ‘quiet’ people just to get a rise. You’ve been unlucky twice, and it’s nothing to do with you or anything you’ve done.

      1. Roy G. Biv*

        “and there are people who will deliberately pick on ‘quiet’ people just to get a rise. ” And then they are SO shocked and offended when the quiet person has finally been pushed too far.

        Beware the fury of a patient man. (Or coworker.)

        1. always a nurse*

          I misread (Or coworker.) as “or cucumber” and I couldn’t figure out how one would know that a cucumber was furious.

      2. Lana Kane*

        I had that from a previous manager, who would think she was catching mistakes but she didn’t know enough of the workflow to know who actually made it. So she ususally assumed it was us.

        When she said that to me, I said, “Well…yes, when I have an answer, I give it to you.” What I wanted to say was, “I can do my job so yeah, that’s why I always have an answer.”

        Weirdly, she always praised how I stepped up when the mistake was truly on me. You’d think then she’d believe my answers when it wasn’t.

        1. Buni*

          I vaguely remember my answer was along the same lines, like “If I know the answer why would I not say it?”. I do very distinctly remember it wasn’t remotely a work-related question…

    7. Not A Manager*

      I don’t disagree with everyone else. The most likely explanation is that these people are jerks. But I’m struck by your saying that you are quiet, and by your old boss’s comment about showing emotion. IF YOU WANT TO and if it feels safe to you, you could ask a personal friend, or a work colleague, if you are coming off as especially cold or unemotional in general. I’m not saying that if you are, it gives people the right to pester you; it doesn’t.

      But having that information gives you the option either to decide that they can pound sand, or to decide to make a bit more chit-chat or whatever else could alleviate this impression (if it exists). I’m suggesting this not to place any responsibility on you for their bad behavior, but because I think that sometimes more information gives you more options.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Normal relationships do not involve provoking emotions out of people, because there is no need.
        Why did the boss need to see you emote, what purpose does that serve?

        I was bullied in my earlier school years. Fast forward, last day of senior year of high school, a person I thought was a friend made a strong reference to that bullying. The only way she would know the reference would be upsetting is if she spent a lot of time talking to someone about me.
        On that particular day, I was recuperating from a bad car crash and dealing with a VERY ill mother. I wasn’t far from tears to begin with, additionally, I had zero energy for any form of arguing. She made her little statement that she just HAD to make and I busted out crying.
        I looked at her and said, “Why did you just say that?”
        She said, “I wanted to see you cry.”
        Because of the zero energy thing I just stared at her briefly and walked away from her without saying a word.

        People do this for varying reasons. Their life sucks and they want other people to experience the pain also.
        Or for reasons real or imagined, they want to knock the person down a peg or two. My choice of framing was to think of it as she believed her life had tanked so low that stepping on ME was the only way she could elevate herself. It had more to do with her than it did me.

        I think this is where you are at. It has more to do with that bizarre boss than it did with you. Likewise these current cohorts. Maybe someone told them you were going to get their jobs and they were going to be pushed out the door. It would be interesting to find out why the last person left, maybe they drain everyone who works with them.

        Hang on to this thought: One of the things we are compensated for is our willingness to get along with others. And this applies to THEM also. They need to be willing to get along with YOU. You are only responsible for your half of the relationship.

        I wish younger me had learned to set a time frame such as “Give this x months, if there is no improvement then get out.” Don’t waste your time around people like this. Don’t make yourself keep trying, when they may have already decided to try to defeat any kind overtures to them that you make.

        1. RC Rascal*

          IME people who have little emotional control themselves tend to see others who can control their emotions as not taking things seriously. If they can’t visibly see a dramatic reaction in you they aren’t satisfied.

          1. Rebecca Stewart*

            I am autistic, and from a family of origin in which women were not allowed to be angry or sad around other people. Anger, especially, was punished.

            I married someone who, it turned out, was used to a parental dynamic in which people yelled at each other and then had glorious makeups until the next fight. He would yell. I would get quiet, precise, and sharp. He would yell until I cried and was emotionally begging him to just not hurt me any more, and after thirty minutes cool-off, he was fine. I….was not. Turned out he was trying to get me to yell, because if I cared enough to yell about it he should listen. Also related was that the only pain I had that was real pain was bad enough to make me cry. Not much makes me cry.
            Yes, we are now divorced.

            1. Momma Bear*

              Even had you not had that family of origin, his behavior sounds horrible and abusive. I’m sorry you had to go through that.

            2. Confused Anon*

              I’m so sorry that you went through that with your husband. Thank you for sharing your story.

              Growing up my parents never yelled at my sister and I in front of others-they would wait until we were at home in private. Also, when we were in trouble, they would just have to give us “the look” and we knew were in trouble. If they had to yell at us, it was really bad. They were also from another country, so I’m sure that plays a part too.

            3. allathian*

              I’m sorry you had to go through that, and a double whammy at that. First growing up in a family where you couldn’t show half your emotional range, and then marrying a guy who ended up abusing you because the way you learned to deal with the abuse from your family of origin made you unable to cope with him. Some people absolutely thrive in an environment where everyone shouts, I hope your ex can find someone who was raised in a similar environment and who thrived in it, because many people who were raised in a family where everyone shouts would rather live in a quieter environment. I also hope that you can find or have found someone who’s more understanding of your needs.

      3. Joan Rivers*

        SECRET:
        I once peeked at a job interviewer’s notes when she left the room.
        She wrote “controlled” and that came as a surprise because I’m pretty expressive. We don’t know how others see us or what they’re trying to get from us.
        I thought SHE was “controlled.”

  5. Rayray*

    I’m wondering if anyone has been able to successfully ask for and receive more flexibility in working hours. My workplace is already pretty flexible, you can work basically any 8 hour shift you want, whether it be 5:00 AM – 1:30 PM (yes, some people do that) or 8:30 – 5:00 etc. Unfortunately our jobs don’t allow for work from home (simply because we handle many sensitive documents and can’t just take them home).

    One thing many of us want is an option do either work 4 10s or even Just longer days with one half day. This isn’t really allowed but I can’t really see why. They are very accommodating if you have appointments or things to do, but it’s not really acceptable to do it as your regular schedules. Most of our work is done independently, and we don’t really have many meetings (even if we did, they could just schedule them early or on any day M-Th anyway).

    Any ideas how we could approach management and ask for this? I was thinking how it could be a nice perk since we don’t get the option to work from home. It would also be nice because it doesn’t make much of a difference how we fill our 40 hours so long as we get the job done and we have been told by management many times that we are the best team they’ve ever had in this department. Apparently we have less people doing more work than before.

    Just looking for advice, appreciate any help!

    1. Snuffleupagus*

      Come prepared with how this would work when same day requests come up. I work somewhere that is exactly this (6-2pm person checking in, love my afternoons!) that shot down 4-10s before I joined. Same day requests come up very rarely here, but upper admin puts a high value on having the *option* to contact us immediately each business day even if they don’t use it. Interruption to core hours (outside of using our PTO benefits, of course) is not tolerated. Staggered consistent schedules might work for you (you always work M-Th, Joe always works T-F, so they always have someone who can answer the question on site every day) – it didn’t work for the people who tried it here because there are there are too many lower level employees for upper admin to want to remember schedules like that, but it might work for you!

    2. WellRed*

      Have a plan and make sure this doesn’t mean everyone is off in Fridays or whatever. Also I know you work independently, but also decide how you can assure that there will be no gaps if applicable. We have one team member who doesn’t work Fridays, which I totally support but it’s ocassionally frustrating to realize I’ll have to wait til Monday for something I need to finish my piece.

    3. Mirve*

      Are you exempt or non-exempt? If non-exempt, it may be overtime issues. For instance, in California, I understand that any hours over 8 in a day are treated as overtime even if the total for the week is 40.

    4. Red5*

      Some states’ labor laws require OT to be paid after 8 hours in a day, not 40 in a week. Could this be the case where you are?

      1. Rayray*

        I’m in Utah and as far as I know, overtime is calculated once you go over 40 hours for the week.

        I totally understand peoples points about availability, but one idea that I would actually kinda prefer and I think would be easier to get is simply proposing working longer four days of the week so you can have one short day. We’d still come in each day. It you could work a shorter shift and be out the door after 4-5 hours.

        1. ThatGirl*

          A lot of companies do that sort of thing for Summer Fridays – work a little longer each day for a half-day on Friday – and my last company extended it through the end of the year as a “goodwill” gesture due to covid. Maybe you could propose it as a trial for 3 months or something?

        2. SentientAmoeba*

          At work we have what’s know as a 549. M-T are 9 hour days. 1st Friday is 8 hours, 2 Friday everyone is off.

          Another way is to get feedback from everyone who want’s the flexibility and present it as a group with built in solutions for coverage etc. I’m willing to bet that consistency will be your linch pin i.e. You work Tue-Fri each week rather than changing around your day off.

          1. Person from the Resume*

            I do this too, but we don’t all get the same days off but I think this is generally illegal for non-exempt employees except for the federal govt (which exempts itself from the law) as overtime is usually required to be calculated on a weekly basis of some sort so you end up with one week of 44 hours (4 hours OT) and one week of 36 hours every single time. You can’t not pay that 4 hours as OT because you’re calculating an 80 hour/2 week pay period.

            1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

              My workplace does this schedule as well, we are a branch of local government in CA. We call it ‘9-80″. My brain is exploding at “549”!

    5. MMMMmmmmmmmMMM*

      I think they might be worried everyone might take the same day off? So if you go in saying you’d do 4-10s M-Th and Janet would do T-F, that might help?

      2. Ashley*

        or alternating Friday’s off? Sometimes the other issue can be tracking people or if there is a Friday afternoon emergency project and so be prepared on how to have that discussion. There are bonus points if you office has an odd payroll schedule where working the weekend doesn’t necessarily mean overtime because sometimes for emergencies that is worth normally working 4 10’s.

    6. Cascadia*

      I don’t have any specific experience requesting this, but I feel like Allison’s advice is always to propose a trial run for a limited time – maybe a month or two months? – and then allow management to reassess after that time period.

      1. Rayray*

        This is a good idea. Another commenter suggested this too so maybe I’ll bring it up.

        Summers are traditionally the busiest period for this industry so I’ll definitely try to bring it up and hopefully we can try it before summer because I know there’s no way they’d try it for the first time then, but if we can prove ourselves, hopefully we can make it stick!

    7. Twisted Lion*

      My work (Federal govt) lets people do an alternate work schedule where they get one day off per two week pay period. So my coworker works 9 hours 8 days a week and one 8 hour shift on one day. You might get a little further with that than the 4 10s.

        1. cheapeats*

          My company does this and it’s worked well for years. We just have folks on alternate Fridays so there is always coverage.

    8. Natalie*

      It seems like the first thing to do is ask what the concerns are about 4-10s or 4-9s and a half day. Trying to guess at what their objections are so you can counter them seems rather inefficient.

    9. pyewacket*

      My manufacturing shop went to 4 10s because of how much money it would save us on electricity. I also know in the local school districts (US, East Coast) they move to 4 10s in all of their facilities for the summer. Same reason that it saves on electricity costs. Doing a cost study might help.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      It may have something to do with the building maintenance or security.
      Since management seems pretty agreeable otherwise, I suspect there is a built in limit/boundary that just cannot be flexed.
      Or it could be a concern regarding workflows, perhaps they could let a few do it, but not everyone so that is why they say no.

      I don’t know how much ground you will gain without knowing WHY they are saying no. Try to focus on finding out the reason for the objection. I think that would be your strongest inroad.

    11. Leah K.*

      This week, I had 3 days of nothing but back to back meetings for 8 hours. Straight. The remaining two days had about 6 hours of meetings each.

    12. Malarkey01*

      Not to be the voice of Debbie Downer but we’ve done a few different workload studies over the years and have consistently found across business lines, positions, and general demographics that individuals are less productive under 10/4s than they are 8/5s. There are a few theories why, but the most common is that extra 2 hours a day has people more burned out than an entire fresh day, and you have the scheduling issue where you are only available 4 of the 5 workdays.

      We’ve had to move away from it.

    14. coffeeandzoom*

      I just successfully negotiated for every other Friday schedule (if you have 40 hour workweeks then that would be called a 9/80 schedule — 9 days to do 80 hours worth of work). I work extra hours Tuesdays through Thursdays in order to have every other Friday off, and I used this article to help make my case: https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/career-development/80-work-schedule
      The above article mentions of pros and cons of it, so I’m actually in the midst of a 2 month trial period where I’m trying this schedule out and then my manager and I will chat toward the end of that trial period on if I can continue it going forward.
      Good luck navigating your schedule change! Flexibility makes a big difference in “work/life balance” for sure.

    15. I'm just here for the cats*

      A concern that might come up is that if everyone is working 10 hour shifts M-Th who is going to be working Friday at 2 PM? Do you work where there is an expectation that SOMEONE will be available at a certain time.

      You might need to come up with a plan such as these people will work m-th, while these other people will work t-th.

      Another consideration, would working 40 hours in 4 days somehow be against company policy or put people into overtime. Or could there be labor regulations like they would have to give you an extra 15 minute break or something? I could be wrong, but I thought I read someplace that some states have regulations that if a person works over 8 hours in a day they are considered working overtime, even if they have 40 hours in the pay period. I could totally be wrong and confusing stuff.

  6. Sunflower*

    How many hours do you spend in meetings a week? I came from 2 very non-meeting heavy jobs. I would say I probably spent 1 hour in meetings/week at first job and 3-4 hours total in meetings a week before. Now I’m averaging 3 hours a day except Fridays.

    What about you guys? And do you think you spend too much time or are you happy with it?

    2. ThatGirl*

      I went from a fairly meeting-light culture – maybe 2-3 hours a week max, including a team check-in — to my new job which is VERY meeting heavy and I seem to average 2-3 a day. Some of that is stuff that would not be a meeting if we were in an office, but even so. I don’t love it, but there are a lot of projects and I’m still learning a lot of things, so I don’t really have standing to push back on most of them.

    3. whocanpickone*

      My last 2 jobs have been extremely meeting heavy – averaging about half of any given week spent in meetings. It is way too much.

      I think 2 hrs/day would be fine, or like one day each week that is mostly meetings and another day completely free.

    4. londonedit*

      My current job is very light on meetings. I have a weekly catch-up meeting with my boss, and a fortnightly catch-up with another department I work closely with, but those are my only regular meetings. Sometimes I need to dial in to other meetings but it’s not every week.

      I’m really happy with it because I can’t do my job if my day is too disrupted – I need stretches of time and space to do things like checking proof corrections.

    5. Spearmint*

      3-5 hours a week is pretty typical for me, and I think that’s fine, though it would be even less time if the meetings were run more efficiently and I had more latitude to skip meetings that aren’t super relevant to me. But I’m entry level, and it seems like more senior people in my field (government) spend more time in meetings.

    6. Two Dog Night*

      Probably 4-6 hours a week, and I’m fine with that–pretty much all the meetings are necessary and productive.

      If you’re not a manager, 3 hours a day seems excessive. Are you getting something out of all of them?

    7. Amber Rose*

      Half an hour on Mondays, 1-2 hours on Wednesdays, and then as needed, usually in short little bursts here and there. We have a lot of meetings going on, but I’m not in all the groups that meet so I think some of the others have a lot more than I do. I know that each group has a weekly meeting on different days of the week, so someone in a lot of groups would probably end up in a couple of hours of meetings every day.

    8. Tired*

      35-40 meetings per week, it comes out to about 6-7 hours per day. I know there was a week in the fall where I had 60+ in a week. I work in project management and design and with the current WFH environment we’re extremely meeting heavy. Pre Covid it was probably 3-5 per day. It’s awful. We all know it is. I work 10-11 hour days so I can get non meeting work done. But it won’t change anytime soon.

      1. Bostonian*

        I feel you on this. I work in a similar culture. Luckily my role doesn’t have a lot of meetings (about 10 hours/week), but I know people who have back-to-back meetings 6-8 hours a day. This is the company’s way of showing that we’re “collaborative”. Oh, they’ll say we should try to reduce meeting burden, but there’s little follow-through. We all also do our “actual” work outside of working hours to get it done.

      2. stephistication1*

        Same here. I’m in meetings from 8am – 3 or 4 everyday. I have to intentionally block out time on my calendar to breath or prepare for upcoming meetings. Then I’m up all night working on the things we talked about. Only saving grace is my compensation, lovely colleagues, visible work and an awesome manager.

      3. A tester, not a developer*

        Yep – I’m doing project work, and the meeting load is very similar. WFH was actually reduced it a bit for us – now a meeting can ping me if an issue comes up they need me for, instead of me having to attend the in person daily/weekly touchpoint ‘just in case’.

        If it was a short term thing we could live with it – but we’re 3 years into an 8 year project, and it’s steadily getting worse. Sadly, at my organization the sponsors won’t consider it a problem until we have some sort of catastrophic (read: expensive) error.

    9. Paris Geller*

      I don’t spend much time in meetings each week–some weeks it’s 0, some it’s maybe 1 or two. But I am on a lot of teams that have monthly meetings. So on average I spent maybe an hour or two a week in a meeting, but in reality I spend 0 hours in meetings two weeks out of the month and then a half day and almost full day in a meeting twice a month.

    10. Project Manager here*

      **Laughs in Project Management**

      On most days, I have 5-7 hours of meetings, and I basically never have less than 3. We are currently 100% remote, so everything that requires actual conversation ends up being a meeting.

        1. Quaremie*

          Same. I am also exhausted (I’m not a PM but work closely with them). It’s rare to have a day with less than 4 h of meetings, typically more like 6 (and sometimes 8!) My actual work gets done by multitasking and not being engaged in my meetings, and then working late and weekends for work requiring focus. I took a PTO yesterday and still had to join 7 calls. OK vent over.

          1. Formerly in HR*

            +1. It was slow for a while, for it creeped up badly eonce WFH was more established. Like it was not enough to have days with 3-5 hours of meetings, this (calendar) year brought two more variations: meetings scheduled over lunch hour (as the only time when people do not have conflicts – duh, that’s for a reason) and back-to-back meetings from 10 to 4 or so, including lunch hour. While our type lf work sometimes caused lomg, unwanted medtings when we were in the office, WFH erased all boundaries. Everything is a meeting, people ping constantly on the many office communicator tools, at least the phone is not ringing too often. I half listen in many meetings I should have not been invited to or do not get listened to even if I have things to share, but there are days when I do not manage to do any work otehr than dial in and switch between meeting codes.

      2. Person from the Resume*

        Yeah!

        My new project has been meeting light so 10 hours per week. My old one had lots of meetings so it was more like 20+ hours per week.

        To be fair project management involves lots of coordinating which often gets done in meetings.

        But also when the team is or some members of the team are overwhelmed by too much work that may be the only way to get their attention or decision.

    11. FoolishFox*

      for the last few months, one meeting a month. prior to us joining a bigger firm, none in 18 months. And yes, that includes not one meeting with my boss in over a year. no check-ins to see how a new employee was adapting, no feedback or reviews, nothing. Yeah, he’s an awful boss.

    12. saffie_girl*

      Mine can vary widely throughout the month because there are about 20 hrs worth of additional meetings in the first week, but otherwise it is about 5-8 hrs a week. I have found that this is far easier to handle with Teams/Zoom as I can look items up as we are talking about them, we can share screens easily and everyone can keep their own notes in their preferred format.

      I’m ok with this amount of time as long as they are productive, and with the disparate location technology, they are. If they were all in person, sitting around a conference table, a lot remains unresolved and I don’t find it a good use of time.

    13. Rainy*

      My meeting schedule is thus:
      Weekly standing meetings: 4hrs
      Every 3 weeks standing meetings: .5hrs
      Monthly standing meetings: 2hrs
      Incidental meetings: probably a total of 2-3 hours over the course of a month

      Those are just meeting-meetings. Part of my work is seeing appointments, and that’s another 12-15 hours of my week, but I don’t think of those as meetings per se. I will say that many of my organizational partners are as eager as I am to keep meetings down, so there are a lot of things that used to be meetings when we were in person and are now emails, for which I thank the gods every day on my knees.

      I’m not at the lowest rung in my office–people at lower rungs have fewer meetings–and the next step up from me is group manager, and the meeting time jumps to something like 3-4hrs/day.

    14. e*

      This is super job-dependent. I worked in a relatively meeting heavy role and culture and had generally 15-20 hours of meetings a week. Now I’m in a pretty interaction-lite role and a culture more interested in asynchronous communication -> 3 hours of meetings a week.

    15. Hillary*

      I spend anywhere from 10 to 40 hours a week in meetings, on average probably 20-25. I’m happy with it – my job is about relationships and influence. The meetings are how I stay on track with my stakeholders and partners.

      It can be exhausting when I have seven or eight meetings a day, especially if it’s back to back meetings with extremely different tones. If I see a day filling up I block an hour for lunch so I have a break to reset (otherwise I just take my lunch when I feel like it).

    16. Sylvan*

      Three hours a day?! What for? A reasonable amount of meeting time is going to depend on your industry and role, but… Three hours… :/

      I’m a copywriter and I spend less than an hour a week in meetings during most weeks. I have about one week a month where meeting time adds up to one or two hours. Our managers avoid unnecessary meetings and keep the necessary meetings brief.

      1. Sylvan*

        After reading the thread, I see many people spend much more time in meetings than I would’ve expected! Don’t know how you do it, guys.

        1. TechWorker*

          Mine varies but I do have days where it’s more than half in meetings. I’m pretty sure my managers job is mostly being in meetings…

      2. ThatGirl*

        I’m a copywriter too, but we have a lot of project-related meetings (kickoffs, updates, discussions), biweekly department meetings, monthly division meetings, etc. This company is very collaborative, which has its upsides and downsides…

      3. Malarkey01*

        I think a lot of that has to do with what work you accomplish in meetings. I’m someone with 6-8 hours a day in meetings typically but that’s where all the decisions are being made, collaborative design is happening, and documentation is done. So yes it seems like a lot, but I accomplish 90% of my job during those meetings. With another 1 or so a day doing the management documentation stuff, personal administrative stuff, and planning.

        That’s really different from team information meetings where you are talked at for an hour and leave thinking that could have been an email.

    17. 867-5309*

      About half of my day+ is spent in meetings… At a past job, I averaged 8-10 hours of meetings each day due to double and triple booking. The more senior you are, the more your day is filled with meetings.

      I actually find myself less productive on days without meetings because there isn’t the urgency to get things done in a shortened time period. I find myself loafing more, especially working from home.

    18. Donkey Hotey*

      For better or worse, my current job was 1/2 hour a week before the pandemic. Compared to my previous job (3-4 hours/week), I feel like a mushroom.

    19. JustaTech*

      I’ve got up to 2 hours a week of weekly meetings (both on Monday, and usually they’re not the whole time), and then one hour-long bi-weekly meeting, and then 4-5 hour-long monthly meetings.
      I rarely go a whole week with no meetings, but I usually have 2-3 days a week with no meetings.
      I’m a data and report generating technical person.

      My spouse, who is a low-to-mid level manager has at least 3 hours of meetings every day, and some days has meetings booked straight through 9-6, where I have to slip them a plate of lunch or they wouldn’t get to eat. Their meeting schedule has gotten much, much heavier as a consequence of work-from-home because they can’t just stop by someone’s desk.

    20. mreasy*

      Lol at least 4 hours a day, sometimes more. I’ve had 3 hours of meetings already today and it’s noon!

    21. Kara S*

      I am in a meeting-heavy industry and my current job (>1 hour per day) is the least amount of meetings I’ve ever had. My past job could be 8 hours a day of meetings. I felt maybe 2 hours of that each day was needed.

    22. Erika22*

      I started my current role at the beginning Of lockdown so it’s tough to say what it would have been like before, but my lightest meeting days are 1-2 hours of meetings (Monday and Friday) and the others are anywhere from 3-6 hours of meetings depending on the day. I have several projects going, each with a different team across at least two time zones, so even just one or two meetings per project per week, plus team meetings, adds up. My previous role was maybe 3 hours of meetings a week, but it was also 100% in office, no remote colleagues at all. I’ve taken to blocking out one full hour at lunch to ensure I have time to eat and do something productive, and sometimes also block out sporadic 30 min-1 hour chunks of “focus time” just to do things!

    23. Middle Manager*

      50% of my time, minimum, is in meetings. One bad days/weeks, it’s more like 80% of my scheduled hours. Which means I have to work unpaid overtime (I’m, correctly, a salaried management level employee) to do the actual work. It’s not great and only gets worse as you go up the chain. Those at the director level and above are lucky if they are only booked at 100% meetings, the are often double and triple booked for meetings in the same time slot.

      It’s not great. It’s leading to significant overwork and then burnout. Don’t recommend. Wish I knew better ways to push back on the culture.

    24. Alex*

      My meetings have ballooned over the past few years. I used to only have one meeting every two weeks, plus a meeting once a quarter.

      Now? So many a week. It varies, but there are days when I’ll have 4 meetings.

      The frustrating part is 99% of these meetings are useless. We have a lot of “meetings about meetings”. Ugh. In my opinion mostly people schedule a meeting when they don’t actually want to deal with something.

    25. comityoferrors*

      I have 4-10 hours of meetings scheduled every week, and by the nature of my role I also field a lot of ad hoc questions so I usually have ~5 hours of “off-the-books” meetings every week as well. This has increased dramatically as I’m training a new staff member (understandably) to the point that I’m probably pushing 20-25 hours of meetings/non-independent-work-time every week.

      It’s a lot! I’m not unhappy with it, but I’ve definitely shifted my priorities as a result to make sure I’m accomplishing all the non-meeting stuff I need to do and rescheduling the things that can wait.

      I also find myself really emotionally drained at the end of days with 3-4+ hours of meetings, even if I’m not leading or contributing much at all. I don’t know how y’all manage – I admire you!

    26. Sleepy*

      I can easily get up to 5-6 hours of meetings at least 2 days per week. It is hell and makes me rethink my job, which I usually like.

    27. Ciela*

      I can’t even imagine that much meeting time. We used to have a 30-45 minute meeting every Monday. We all hated it. It was just a waste of time. Now we only have very short meetings, more like announcements. Changes to the insurance plan / hirings and leavings / schedule changes, etc. Maybe 30 minutes a month?

    28. Oxford Comma*

      Pre pandemic, it was about 3 hours a week. Now? Now I’m at about 3-4 hours a day and my soul is dying.

    29. Bored IT Guy*

      I think I have 8-10 regular meetings a week on my calendar (some are only every other week). Usually takes about 10 hours for my regularly scheduled meetings.

    30. KR*

      I spend about 4-6 hours a week on meetings and I think it’s way too much, but I’m also an individual contributor and not a manager so I don’t have a lot to say. So many of these meetings are things I just have to listen to and be aware of and could have been an email.

      1. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

        +1000! I’m a low tier manager and I spend so much time in meetings where the only thing I say is “AAL from Organization X” during the roll call.

    31. Comp Expert*

      This past week I had meetings every single day, back to back, from 8:30am to 5:30pm (and a couple of days they ran long and finished at 6:30pm). Next week is the same. It is insane and also the nature of my job.

    32. RAEL/STEPB/OE/HAOER*

      I’m a court reporter working in depositions, which are basically meetings in a sense. So my typical workday is a 4 to 8 hour long meeting. I only do three or four days a week because outside of the time I’m on the record, I have to produce the transcripts, which takes equal time or more (a transcript for a full-day deposition might take me another 8 or more hours to finalize.) The thing I find most difficult in our new remote world is my on-camera presence… in person, I would be at the head of the conference table and largely “invisible” to the participants talking to each other across the table. But with virtual, I’m just as visible as everyone else in our little boxes, and I struggle to keep my face in pleasant repose while I’m concentrating intensely and working furiously with my fingers!

    33. allathian*

      Most weeks I have one mandatory meeting, usually either 45 minutes or 90 minutes on alternate weeks. We also have an optional coffee half-hour on Friday afternoons, but they haven’t been very well-attended lately. Zoom/Teams/Skype fatigue is a thing and most of the people in my team sit in a lot more meetings than I do. We also have informational meetings for the whole department, where I’m not expected to contribute, once a month. Those usually last 90 minutes as well.

      So even when my ordinary meetings max out, I’m attending them for 3.5 hours/week at most, so less than 10 percent of my workweek.

      I’m very happy with this, because my job doesn’t require a lot of synchronous collaboration, where meetings are necessary.

    34. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

      Pre-COVID, I would say I would have about 4 hours of meetings a day; for some reason Thursday’s are exceptionally heavy, so Thursdays are almost all day. During COVID, like some have said, it’s basically non-stop meetings. But some of it for me, is people being a little bit more considerate of each other’s time and trying to schedule a meeting for a conversation that would take more than 5 minutes. I kind of like it because that way can say ‘hey, I walk the dog from 4-5pm, but I can take the call before 4 or after 5.’ But I do hate that now there is non-stop meetings I have much less time to get my independent work done and its beginning to really stress me out that my individual project aren’t going as well as I like.

  7. MOOC on Resume*

    How should I include my MOOC (Massive Open Online Course) on my resume?

    I’m halfway through a Udacity Digital Marketing Nanodegree paid for by my county government as part of a Digital Career Transformation effort. As such, I’m updating my resume and wondering where to include it.

    Should it be under education, certifications or somewhere else? Also, should I mention the Digital Career Transformation program on my cover letter? I earned a scholarship to attend the program.

    Thanks for your help!

    1. Reba*

      Yes to the letter, and I might put the course under Certifications or Continuing Education if that is a thing in your field. I might also just call it a course or training rather than a MOOC.

        1. MOOC on Resume*

          Sorry, I’m confused. I didn’t intend to add a MOOC section to my resume. Udacity and similar programs are considered MOOCs because they are for-profit, not accredited and accessible to people across the globe.

          The sections where I could include it are education or certification. I don’t even have room on my resume for an entirely new section, especially not for a three-month online class.

          1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

            No, I meant don’t even label it as a MOOC like “Completed a MOOC”, just use the course name.

          2. Reba*

            Yeah, we know! Sorry. I think both Teekanne and I are saying to use the heading “Certifications” and to call it
            “Digital Marketing Nanodegree, 3 month course — Udacity”

            while avoiding having the term “MOOC” itself appear on the resume. It’s jargon, so some people won’t know what it is, and some people who do know what it means will have some prejudice that it is unserious.

            1. MOOC on Resume*

              Thanks for responding, but I’m still unclear where I stated that I would be calling the Udacity Nanodegree a MOOC on my resume.

              In fact, I went back and reviewed my initial comment. The exact question I asked was “Should it be under education, certifications or somewhere else?”

              I am also going to note that I used the term MOOC as a catch-all in the title because the Nanodegree is NOT a standard degree.

              With this comment, I hope the confusion has been alleviated. Please let me know. Thanks!

              1. Cassidy*

                I interpreted the responses to your initial comment as 1-offs about MOOCs, i.e. “Also, in case you were thinking of doing so, don’t refer to the course as a MOOC.”

                1. Reba*

                  Exactly! It was an “in case you are thinking about” kind of advice. Since OP asked about a MOOC, it’s not unreasonable to suppose that you might use the term “MOOC” to talk about it in other contexts. :)

    2. Foxgloves*

      I work in the field of MOOCs/ SPOCs/ MicroMasters/ etc, and MOOCs and Nanodegrees are two really different things. Don’t list this as a MOOC! I’d put this under “Continuing Professional Development” personally along with other significant learning programmes/ certifications (e.g. PRINCE2, etc), and I’d write it as:
      Digital Marketing Nanodegree – Udacity (3 months, ongoing)
      OR
      Digital Marketing Nanodegree- Udacity (June-August 2020)

      If it *was* a MOOC, I wouldn’t put it on there at all- even as someone who works in the field, they don’t carry enough weight. These longer form programmes do though! And yes, definitely mention the Digital Career Transformation programme in your cover letter!

      1. MOOC on Resume*

        I found that many websites consider Udacity’s Nanodegrees to be MOOCs. Among the sites that list that do are: bitdegree.com, classcentral.com, e-student.com, medium.com, classpert.com, among others. These sites all rank highly on Google and have detailed reviews of Udacity and other MOOCs. I accept their assessments, especially when taken in aggregate.

        Besides, my question wasn’t about semantics. It concerned where to add the course to my resume, which you answered. Thank you for doing so.

    3. Katrinka*

      I’m currently doing this through Coursera. I list it under Education and as a certification rather than a degree. FOR the one I’ve completed, I list it like this:
      MAY 2020
      COVID-19 CONTACT TRACER CERTIFICATION, Big Name Unversity
      * Online training course (through Coursera)
      * Scored 99.1%

      For the one I’m working on:
      Currently Enrolled
      PYTHON FOR EVERYBODY SPECIALIZATION, Big Name University
      * Online training classes (through Coursera)
      * Anticipate completing before mid-March 2021
      * Course listing, syllabi and progress available upon request
      Listing them also helps to answer the question of what I’ve been doing while I’m out of work.

      If it’s an application and they have a section for certificates, it often doesn’t work to list them there because the section asks for certificate expiration dates and there aren’t any (and the online applications don’t let you skip fields).

      1. MOOC on Resume*

        Thank you for the detailed and helpful response!

        I will look into formatting my resume addition in a similar way.

        Lastly, congrats on your ongoing education through Coursera! Balancing work/life/pandemic stress and everything else while continuing to learn is truly impressive.

    4. coldfeet*

      I’ve now started two jobs remotely this last year. I think it’s helpful to ask people in your introductory meetings how best they like to communicate (phone, email, IM, whatever) and their working hours if that’s not clear. Then use that info and customize your approach to each person.

      I found with my first job that onboarding remotely meant that I was missing all of that more casual kitchen/hallway/lunch conversations when you can learn a little more about each person as a human being. I’m pretty introverted and tend to not make a lot of small talk in Zoom meetings, so I ended up not really knowing much about my coworkers and them not knowing much about me. So with my latest new job, I made an effort in the intro meetings, once we’d talked about the work stuff we needed to cover, I volunteered personal info about me (where I live, my family, how I spend my time these days, etc) and asked them if they were willing to share some more information about themselves since it’s hard to get to know folks over Zoom. Everyone was really receptive! And when I did this in my first meeting with my small team (4 of us), they all learned lots of new things about each other too!

  8. No Tribble At All*

    I’m starting my new job next week! It’ll be remote until Covid gets better. So, what tips do y’all have for starting remotely? I tend to be a fairly chatty person, so I want to make sure I’m not bugging people by IMing them.

    1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

      Ask your manager or trainer if there are any existing Zoom socializing events like a Zoom happy hour or something. Being able to introduce yourself and integrate to your team is important. Feel free to ask your co-workers questions about the job/culture/themselves and add the caveat that they can respond whenever is convenient. :) Congrats!

    2. Bostonian*

      I think it’s understood that the first few weeks for a new hire will include introductions, etc., so people won’t be “bugged” by being Im’d. You will be able to get a sense in your initial conversations who you gel with/who also enjoys chatting, so you can be more focused going forward.

    3. Qwerty*

      Please IM them! I think one of the hardest things about starting remote is feeling like you are bugging people when asking for help.

      – If you have a lot of questions, ask if it would be easier to have a call to go through them
      – Distinguish important chats using notifications (like tagging their username on Slack). Leave it off for less urgent messages so you don’t break their workflow. To me, the only time I feel like I’m really being bugged is when someone uses the notifications too frequently, because it makes the app flash and demand my attention.
      – Try to schedule an informal 15min getting-to-know-you call with the people that you’ll be working closely with. Knowing each other as people will make the IM conversations feel more natural
      – Do you have people in your personal life for fulfilling the social part of the chattiness? My work from home days usually involve a call to a family member or texting a lot with a friend so I have an outlet for how lonely remote work can be.

      1. Cascadia*

        I agree with this. My husband was just telling me that they are seeing a real work decline with some new hires over the past year, and they think it’s because they’ve lost the inability to just “pop down the hall and ask a question” of a more senior person. We were brainstorming ways to make IMs and question asking happen more so that the new hires are more supported and feel comfortable getting help when needed.

    4. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

      We’ve had a few people join the team remotely, and it’s been harder for me because you just get wrapped up in work and meetings that you kind of forget to check in where you would see them every day at work and remember to check in.

      -I would ask how people like your manager prefer to be contacted. Using their preferred method always sets you up for success.
      -Be ready to just be given a lot of reading, take notes, and then ask to set up a meeting with a subject matter expert when they have open time.
      -Expect that there is going to be some heavy lifting on your side. I’m trying to get better, but again, it is so easy to get distracted by work and by the time I remember that I need to check-in with people it’s pretty much Friday. I would recommend sending an email with some questions or notes to check in with whomever you go to for training/work with, that way they can better help you. It’s harder now to gauge what you know and what you need help with. Plus it will help them plan how much time to block off in their schedules.
      -Let people know what is priority and what can wait until they have open time.
      -Understand that some organizations are just within the past year adding people to the team virtually, so it’s been challenging for us too. So basically, it’s not you, it’s us.

  9. Awkward*

    One of my employees may be getting fired next week after a pre-set length of time guided by state rules for them to present evidence to our director. It’s awkward to work together and discuss future projects knowing he may not be around for them. He knows it. I know it. And we don’t talk about it.

    1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

      So, did he not defend himself or appeal to the director at all? Maybe he’s just resigned to his fate. How deliciously awkward.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      The best you can do here is be a decent human being and carry on. Sometimes that is as good as good gets.
      Sorry, I know this sucks. Hopefully the situation will not be in limbo for long.

  10. It's All Elementary*

    I have hearing loss and use hearing aids. I will be getting new HA’s that are Bluetooth compatible. I would like to request phone accommodations from my employer but wonder if anyone has successfully advocated for themselves and can give me some pointers. How do I word the accommodation? And does anyone have recommendations for specific brand attachments to a business landline phone. Thanks

    1. Just a PM*

      Yes! I did this! Be as specific as you can when making your request. I had to intimidate my chain of command with data so they could fully understand and grasp what the problem was. Don’t hesitate to ask your audiologist or doctor for help on how to phrase things. I found that I have to educate people about my hearing loss and assistive listening technologies while asking for the accommodation.

      Here is what I wrote in my accommodation request (yes, I kept it):
      “I have severe bilateral sensorineural hearing loss. I augment my hearing loss through the use of personal hearing aids and lip-reading to obtain a level of cognitive understanding and comprehension of approximately 85-90%; however, without any visual cues (e.g., voice-only conversations via phone call), my understanding and comprehension of the information being discussed drops to approximately 16-20%. A significant issue with relying on voice-only conversations via phone is that I am unable to increase the volume on my landline phone to a loud enough point that I can fully hear, without the use of a speaker or someone sitting next to me to relay what was said, and comprehend what is being said and often there is electromagnetic interference between my hearing aid and the phone. With bluetooth-enabled hearing aids, it is now fully possible for me to stream audio directly into my hearing aids, which not only eliminates electromagnetic interference, but also provides a full ‘surround-sound’ listening experience into both ears. This increases my ability to hear and understand what is being said over the phone by at least 50-60%, almost the equivalent of an in-person face-to-face conversation, and negates the need for a speaker or a ‘translator’.”

      I can’t give you any recommendations for rand attachments to a landline, though. I used my political capital to get a company iPhone and set up call-forwarding to the iPhone from my desk landline. Would that be an option for you? If not, hopefully the other commentators have recommendations for you or maybe check with your audiologist.

      Good luck!

      1. It's All Elementary*

        Ooh! I like what you’ve done. And I’m certainly glad you kept it and was willing to share with me. I know that I’m going to have to actively advocate for myself because I don’t know that there is anyone else in my situation and it will be totally new for them to deal with. I think I will give them a couple of options and the iphone might be an option. Could be relatively cheap and easy to set up and manage.
        Thank you so much!

    2. Quaremie*

      My husband uses hearing aids and he has a phone that translates the words to text. I am not sure of the brand name but will ask him and respond back.

      1. It's All Elementary*

        I’m hoping I can get some Bluetooth capability. It would make the job much easier if I can just hear people as they talk. Cross your fingers for me!

    3. Hillary*

      Is your work phone a true landline or VOIP? If it’s VOIP your IT department may already have a solution – the phones at my last company could be paired with a variety of headsets and would probably work with your hearing aids out of the box. I only found out because the IT department was two guys and they were helpful finding equipment we found comfortable to use.

      1. It's All Elementary*

        It could very well be VOIP so I will make sure I have that option as a choice in my accommodation request.
        Thanks

        1. Hillary*

          Do they already know about your hearing loss? And do you have anyone in IT you know/trust? You might be able to sound out IT informally before you submit the request. Good luck! Just in case reassurance will help, this would be a very small ask at my current and last two employers.

          1. It's All Elementary*

            My immediate co-workers/boss know but beyond that, no. I’ve been able to avoid the phones for the most part but I’m having to answer them more and the hearing is getting worse so now I need to step it up and work out a solution.

    4. Sam*

      If it’s necessary, you might be able to forward the landline calls to your cellphone as a stopgap measure.

    5. Annika Hansen*

      Our university uses Cisco Phones. If your company uses Cisco, the 8851 phone model can connect to Bluetooth hearing aids (no additional equipment needed). It’s a pretty common phone for business.

    6. OneTwoThree*

      I used to sell phone systems – this is very easy to do with newer phones! There are several manufacturers that sell Bluetooth enabled phones out of the box. Some phones can be retrofitted with a module on the back to make it Bluetooth capable.

      I know someone mentioned Cisco Phones. Mitel and Polycom phones also have these capabilities that I know of. Someone also mentioned VOIP phones. I would even generalize a bit more saying they only need to be IP phones.

      There are also certain phones that have special handsets that will work better with hearing aids. I’m not sure of the logistics, but it helps prevent feedback and whatnot. I would only say that is applicable if you can’t get the Bluetooth working.

      1. It's All Elementary*

        I have not been successful in using handsets that are capable of working with hearing aids. I have been doing better by just taking out my hearing aid and listening at full volume but that sometimes brings distortion to the sound which defeats the purpose. Some voices are easier to hear than others and some have crappy phone systems that transmit poor quality and then there are the people who just don’t talk clearly at all. I will review all your suggestions though and see what I can work with. Thank you.

  11. What are jobs?*

    Why do so few online job descriptions actually describe jobs?

    I choose my career path as a teenager and I didn’t have a whole lot of information at the time about what other jobs existed or what people who had those jobs did. My industry has changed dramatically in the last 20 years in an attempt to “stay relevant” and as a result, it’s not a career path I’m interested in any longer.

    But I’ve been scrolling through LinkedIn and Indeed for the last couple of weeks, and almost every job posting is a vague sounding title with a description like “come work with this vibrant and dynamic company!” And I just want to know what the person who has this job will be doing all day.

    Is there any sort of resource for this? Like a list somewhere online of common job titles and what people in those jobs do? I’m desperate to leave my job, but I don’t want to spend forever applying to jobs when I don’t even know if I want them because I don’t know what they are.

    1. Picard*

      Maybe tell us a little bit about what you like to do and folks can respond with the jobs they do that match?

    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      The reason job posting are written like that is because they are advertisements, not actual job descriptions. They are written to attract qualified candidates.

      If you are interested in moving into a specific industry or role, you may want to network and talk to people in those types of jobs to learn what exactly the work is like.

    4. Esmeralda*

      onetonline DOT org
      breaks down tasks, skills, work activities, tech skills, work styles etc etc.
      Doesn’t have every job, but an awful lot of them. Easy to use.
      If you’re in the US: your tax dollars at work!

    5. Boundaries*

      Those kinds of resources do exist. Though where they are would probably vary by industry.

      I’d throw a title and an industry into Google and see what pops up. Or if you can be more specific about the industry, maybe people can point you to a specific website.

    6. Overeducated*

      This is a really good question and one where I think informational interviews are WAY more useful than what you can find online.

      For example, let’s take a job title that isn’t mine, but is related enough that I can use as an example. Say you want to be an ecologist. If you Google “what does an ecologist do on a day-to-day basis,” you’ll see, “Ecologists may do fieldwork to collect and analyze data on environmental conditions, or to assess or certify a habitat. They use the information they gather to plan habitat management or environmental restoration projects, including procedures, resources, schedules, and budgets.”

      This is kind of accurate but doesn’t really address the range of variation and how that impacts your work life and conditions, and may be a little misleading for people who are interested in the career because they get to spend lots of time outside. For instance, if you’re an academic ecologist, you are likely to spend a small portion of the year in the field and conducting analysis, and larger portions teaching intro biology/ecology/geosciences classes, writing grant applications, and trying to publish your findings. If you work for an environmental resource management company, you may spend a larger portion of the year in the field, OR you may be mostly supervising employees, doing project management, putting in proposals to bring in business, or doing paperwork for regulatory compliance. If you work for a public agency, you may be spending a LOT of time on regulatory compliance paperwork, coordinating with other divisions for planning management, restoration, or construction activities, etc., and you may spend very little time in the field, depending on where you sit. Or you could even wind up in a funding agency where you spend a lot of your time running grant competitions for OTHER people to do ecological research or restoration, and you’ll be 100% in front of a computer.

      So it’s not just the job title, but the setting. And this is where talking to people in the field is key, to get an idea about not just what you want to do, but where you want to do it.

      1. Usagi*

        Absolutely this! You can some very general information online, and the title might give you a hint as to what they do but very often companies/organizations use the same titles to mean very different things. I’m living proof of that. On my resume, I’ve been a “Llama Wrangling Specialist” three times at three different companies, but each time was a completely different job. The first time was at a Llamas R Us retail location, and my job wasn’t so much to wrangle llamas, as it was to help customers understand the different llama wrangling goods we carried. The second time was at a huge multinational corporation, and my job was now to create training content for others in my company to learn how to wrangle llamas. Finally, at my current company, I’m actually wrangling llamas.

        Anyway, (echoing Overeducated) my point is that just because the title says XYZ doesn’t mean that every company will have you doing ABC. You need to talk to someone from the company to figure out exactly what your day to day will be.

  12. ghostlight*

    Hey everyone. Just wanted to see if anyone here is also job-searching in the theatre or other arts-related/non-profit industries. It’s been frustrating given how few jobs are available and how competitive all of the available jobs are. I was a finalist for a job that had over 300 applicants (!) and that was at a tiny, local company that would be lucky to have 50 applicants in a normal year. I alsoapplied for a job at a summerstock that I got offered two years ago, and I haven’t even heard back from them. Would love some encouragement/to hear how everyone else is handling it.

    1. Not A Manager*

      My theatre/arts adult child was fortunate to get a job in an unrelated field but utilizing his professional skills and hopefully continuing to grow them. (In the theatre world, he makes tea for the actors and has to keep current on theatrical teas and tea technology; he got a job watering llamas and has to learn a lot about llama beverages and llama infrastructure, but most of beverage information will help him when he moves back to theatrical tea work.) Maybe you can apply to something adjacent to your field that still utilizes your skills?

    2. A. Ham*

      It sucks. No question about it. I was furloughed from my last job in the industry and did somehow manage to get hired somewhere else but I’m still not totally sure how I pulled that off.
      Here’s the good news- but it may not be the right news that you want to hear, because it means waiting longer than you already have been – I think there are lots and lots of companies out there planning a Fall season and will be looking to rehire positions that they had to lay off last year. Or, on the production/tech side, positions that they didn’t hire for this “season” to begin with, but will be doing so again next season. On our last all staff zoom my company (medium sized LORT) they said that over the next 4ish months we will probably be hiring 40-50 people. That is a mix of admin, FOH, production, etc.
      So, finally, there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
      Keep an eye out. More jobs are coming. Hang in there.

      1. ghostlight*

        Yeah I’m under that impression too about companies rehiring. And it’s definitely picked up from last year. I got a decent office job after getting laid off in March 2020 from my previous job, so I’m fine financially, but it’s so boring to me compared to my old work in theatre admin. I’m just itching to get back in theatre again.

        Thanks for your kind words,
        A. Burr

    4. GoodLuck*

      No encouragement, just commiseration. I’m a museum curator, and my field was already at the 300+ applicants per opening level before the pandemic. Jobs are as bad as I’ve seen them in 10+ years in the field. I haven’t sent a competitive application since last summer. Fortunately, I still have a couple of years left in a term-limited position. I’m hoping the field will “bounce back” (whatever that means!) by then–but that’s pretty optimistic based on what I’m hearing from current management. A lot of institutions were already in bad financial shape and a hiring freeze is the easiest way to reduce payroll. But I also have a plan B in a more employable field (grantwriting). Highly competitive fields often bring periods of unemployment, so it’s really smart to have a plan B ready even if you don’t ever need to use it. For me, I feel less stressed by my poor job prospects because I know my worst case scenario isn’t that bad.

    5. Skippy*

      Yes, that’s me too — I’ve worked in the arts and culture industry for over 15 years, and was laid off shortly before the pandemic. This is the worst job market I’ve ever seen, with 100+ applicants for even the lowest-paying part-time jobs. I’ve been a finalist for three jobs but no offers yet. However, I do think the market is getting better — I’ve seen a lot more job listings since the first of the year, as I think institutions are starting to bring back staff in anticipation of reduced restrictions in the coming months. I’m also happy to see there is money allocated for arts funding in the new Covid relief bill — hopefully that will help a bit. And the unemployment extensions and add-ons have been a lifesaver.

      Good luck!

    6. NACSACJACK*

      To commiserate, my boyfriend says he’s watched his entire industry(theatre tech) get wiped out. That you are finding jobs at is a positive note in itself.

      Theatre itself may turn more virtual in the foreseeable future (1-3 years), but eventually everyone will want to go to the theatre. if you go off and do something unrelated, those in the industry will understand and welcome you back when it is time.

      For positivity, once the $600 a week bonus (and his unemployment) ran out, he got a job in a pottery studio. He sees art every day and works with his hands. Some of his friends are taking classes for other careers such as data analytics and it is a surprise to them as well as their professors and fellow students just how good they are at it.

      As they say, this too shall end. Tie a rope on a branch in whatever industry you can find a job and hang tight.

    7. Dancing Otter*

      Networking is key.
      As you say, the advertised openings (ArtSearch, e.g.) are inundated with applicants.
      My theatre tech offspring has had several gigs since being furloughed, and all have come through referrals. The orchestra director recommends this sound designer. The sound designer recommends that sound engineer. The designer or engineer knows someone who plays X instrument when the planned X-player has to quarantine. Sometimes the referrals are even across fields, like a lighting person worked with a great costume designer in the past, and recommends them.
      I sometimes think they’re spending half their waking hours on the phone and social media, but it’s paid off. Mind, if they didn’t have a sterling reputation, no one would recommend them however much they tried: nobody needs to put up with attitude or mediocrity in such a hirers’ market.

  13. Drama Llamas*

    I was absent from work because I wasn’t feeling well. That same day I had a covid vaccine scheduled through my work place. They had already told us that you couldn’t change appointments and since I didn’t want to miss the appointment, I went to get my vaccine. (I checked with my doctor and he said that it was okay to go.)

    Since the vaccines were being given at work, I saw a couple of coworkers there and they were surprised to see me. I explained that my doctor said it was okay to receive it and that I didn’t want to miss my appointment.

    We chatted for a little, but then when I was able to leave, I said good bye and one coworker suddenly ignored me. (She turned her chair around and just spent time reading the vaccine info packet.)

    The next day at work, the same coworker was ignoring me and giving me the cold shoulder. She was leaving me out of conversations and even gave me a dirty look.

    Now I don’t know if she thought it was unusual that I was out sick, yet showed up for the vaccine, but I didn’t want to miss the vaccine and my doctor said it was okay to go.

    This coworker is known for being moody, but it’s exhausting and I don’t handle drama well- it makes me physically upset. I don’t want to ask why or if she is upset with me, but it’s confusing when one second she is talking to you and the next she isn’t.

    Any advice? Do you just ignore people like this? How do you not let it affect you?

    1. SomebodyElse*

      Ignore, and don’t give it any more headspace. She’s in a snit about something and will either get over it or not. Unless it escalates somehow or gets unprofessional it’s really something you should ignore if she has form for it.

      If you are up for it, you can challenge it, “Hey Jane, is something wrong? Do we need to clear the air about something?” Sometimes this can be effective if you want to go this route.

    2. Jean*

      Ignore it. You being bothered by her petty bitchiness is exactly what she wants, so don’t give it to her. I like to be extra cheery and friendly with people like this just to needle them, but I’m also a very spiteful person who gives as good as I get.

    3. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

      My mom had six teenagers at one time and gave us the BEST advice for drama in the workplace/school/whatever: just assume it isn’t about you. Because you’d be surprised how often it really, truly isn’t and is coming from some other source. So much of the time we spend worrying what others are thinking about us when they’re worrying the same thing and not thinking about us at all. It’s paid off loads!

    4. Sabine the Very Mean*

      I used to be an elementary school teacher working as a specialist where I pulled students out of class for individualized instruction and then sent them back. This happened until their skills improved enough.

      One student decided it must have been a huge personal slight that she was sent back to class and no longer needed to be pulled out. When I saw her in the hall, I’d say “Hi Sam!” and she’d literally push her nose up in the air and smile a sly little shitty smile and she’d turn her head away.

      Treat your coworker like you would this child. Since I was not a child, I simply chose to keep saying hello to her like I would all my other students. When I really needed her to respond, I would say, “Sam, when I’m asking you a question, I need you to answer me. There’s not an option not to.”

      I would say, do not name her feelings–those are her business. Who cares if she’s upset or why? Don’t ignore her but don’t make a show of getting her attention. Don’t react to a dirty look at all. Practice looking through her when she does that. You do not owe other adults an explanation of your adulting.

    5. Dust Bunny*

      Ignore. She’s a twit and worrying about What’s Bothering Her This Time is a waste of energy because something will always be bothering her. This is someone who is looking to be miffed about stuff.

    6. Rusty Shackelford*

      You weren’t feeling well enough to work and yet you still managed to show up for a vaccine? How dare you.

      {rolling my eyes}

      I used to have someone like this in my department (she ran hot and cold; sometimes she’d chat me up and other times she’d completely ignore me) and I took great joy in being as cheery and chipper to her as possible when she wasn’t speaking to me. “Good morning, Jane! How are YOU today?” Basically forcing her, in front of witnesses, to either speak to me or let them see she was ignoring me. But then, I’m petty.

    8. Chilipepper*

      I love Alison’s advice to watch the drama like you would a TV show or movie. Get out the mental popcorn and just watch. Combine that with Teekanne’s advice to assume it is not about you and I think it will help you remove your emotions.

      1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

        This made me laugh out loud because EVERY day we would come home from school and mom would sit in her recliner with an actual bowl of popcorn to get the latest drama, all while knowing that none of us were really suffering from any of it. “Bless her heart”, then munches a handful of popcorn. “Do you think he know’s he’s being cheated on?”, more popcorn. It was the best relationship anyone could have ever had with half a dozen teens at once.

    9. Asenath*

      Ignore her – not totally, of course. Speak to her professionally when it is necessary, but ignore the cold shoulder and the dirty looks. You can’t read her mind, it’s not your responsibility to do so, and in the unlikely event she really has some serious issue with you, it’s up to her to tell you about it, not up to you to interpret her hints. I used to be advised to “grow a thick skin”, which really comes down to not allowing other people to make their problems yours. It really helps to reduce drama. I hate drama in the workplace – it belongs on a stage.

    10. SentientAmoeba*

      Would her behavior bother you as much if you weren’t already concerned about the optics of showing up in the office on a day you called out sick?

    11. Not So NewReader*

      ” How do you not let it affect you?”

      By saying over and over, “She doesn’t sign my paycheck. She doesn’t sign my paycheck… “[on and on until it sunk into my skull.]
      Another good way to dampen her effect on you is to bury yourself in your work. Ask for a new task, or volunteer for a task no one is doing. Fill up that space in your brain so you have something else to think about.

    12. PollyQ*

      Captain Awkward has said that the silent treatment from someone can be a gift, if you let it. If she’s not talking to you, she’s also not hassling you. As long as you can both be polite & professional when working together, that’s all that’s needed. If you need a mantra, “Her behavior is not about me, it’s about her” might help.

  14. Escaped a Work Cult*

    I’m managing a creative employee who never remembers what their tasks are. They are told to complete x task, I get “ok!”, and three hours later I receive a “what was I supposed to do” message. I’m at my wits’ end as coaching conversations about keeping track of notes and takeaways have failed.

    Does anyone have a suggestion on how I should approach them?

    1. Picard*

      Email them instead of giving verbal tasks…. its obvious they dont process auditory instructions well (says the person who doesnt process auditory stuff well)

      1. Spearmint*

        Yes this. Also, if you must give tasks verbally, saying something like (“this is important, you may want to write it down”) can help too.

      2. Lana Kane*

        Agreed – I tend to follow up on these conversations with an email, and I always say “so we both remember the instructions” or “for both our reference”. (grammatically correct? dunno!)

        I was the teenager whose mom gave her 5 tasks and remembered 3 at most. I do better when I have things in writing.

      3. allathian*

        I don’t process auditory stuff well, either. I’m just glad that for as long as I’ve worked in an office environment, I’ve always had bosses who preferred to assign tasks to me in writing.

    2. Snuffleupagus*

      If verbal instructions have failed, have you tried just switching to email or print out that they can refer to later? I know the gut instinct might be “I don’t want to take that time upfront when I can just tell them” but if you’re having to repeat it later, it might save you net time in the end.

      I’m not a creative but I do work in the sorts of processes that can get me into a similar flow, and it’s super easy for someone to verbally ask me something while I’m in a flow, and for me to think I’ve absorbed it (even taking notes!) and it totally washes away by the time I finish my current process. Email requests are thankfully my work culture’s norm and I refer back to them often.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Have a task log of some kind. If you don’t have project management software of some kind, then do it in a shared spreadsheet or document.

      Include what the task is, when you assigned it (date & time), when you need it done, when it’s actually finished.

      You enter the task in the document *before* you assign it to the person.

    4. Over There!*

      Have you considered a task management program like Trello? That way, you can make assignments as you see fit, then your employee can see every step they have to do to complete it.

    5. Tracy*

      I would give them written guidelines on the task with due dates and details about what you want done, in email form.

      Some people are just bad with verbal instructions. I am one of them and honestly I am not a flake, I have full intentions of getting the work done. There are times I get a lot of interruptions (I am the front desk person) and if I don’t get an opportunity to write things down or flush them out on paper …. there they go, with the breeze.

    6. SomebodyElse*

      Do they write things down when you give them a task? I tell all of my employees that they should get in the habit of having a way to take notes any time they meet with someone. If it’s a hallway conversation, they need to get in the habit of writing down anything as soon as they are back to their desk. (It sounds like you’ve already had this conversation so I’d move on to step #2)

      You need to manage this employee by having the conversation that it is their responsibility to capture tasks the first time. Then, (It’s not my favorite but sometimes you need to build a habit for your employees.) do they come to meetings without paper? Send them back to their desk to get some (every time), do they come to your office/desk and ask you things without paper… don’t answer any questions until they have paper and pen in hand (every time). When they ask you “What was I supposed to do?” ask them “What did you write down?” when they say “Umm I forgot to write it down” Then you draw a line “Well that’s unfortunate, because you were given a task and now you don’t know what it is. How are you going to fix this?”

      Right now, your employee has trained you to be their reminder system. I have no patience for this. So you need to train them to be responsible and reliant on themselves.

      1. Escaped a Work Cult*

        I like this method a lot! Especially when we have a task management system and I still have to repeat back.

      2. AllTheBirds*

        Everything SomebodyElse said.

        You can’t take their notes for them or compile a list, it’s not your job as a manager.

        They have to be responsible for their own work, period.

        1. allathian*

          Depends on the manager. I’ve been lucky enough to always have managers who either assigned tasks to me in writing, or else followed up with an email.

    7. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I mean, if my manager gave me instructions and I regularly had to ask her to repeat them because I couldn’t bother to keep track of them, even after she’d talked to me about how this was a problem, I would expect that it would become a disciplinary issue and if I didn’t figure out a way to do my job (namely, do the thing my manager needs me to do without her holding my hand) then I would probably be losing said job posthaste.

      If you’re not giving the directions in a written format, you could TRY that first, but at this point, y’all both know it’s a problem, you’ve discussed that it’s a problem, and they’re not bothering to do anything to fix it. They are not doing their job.

    8. Dust Bunny*

      Email. I’m not “creative” but I’m incapable of remembering more than like three things at one time, and verbal communication never sticks. Require an email receipt if you think that will help.

      1. Productively Forgetful*

        I disagree with the suggestions to send emails or write things down for the employee. I’m incapable of remembering things myself, and for that reason when my boss asks me to stop by her desk, I always bring pen and paper. No reason for me to make my problem become my boss’ problem!

        OP, I think your approach so far is not helping. “I’ve repeated this three times, you need to have it sink in your brain” conversations are not very effective, as you’ve already noticed. You shouldn’t have to repeat your instructions even once, only answer questions if there are any.

        I like the suggestions to tell the employee to write things down so they can refer to the notes later, and also to explain that figuring out how to take care of the task without interrupting you because they forgot is part of the job. The employee has a performance problem and should be responsible to solve it him/herself. For all we know, they aren’t good with written instructions either, and would prefer to record a message to themselves when they are at their desk that they can late replay to refresh their memory. As long as they can retrieve the information required to complete the task without wasting OP’s time, the exact approach isn’t important.

        1. allathian*

          Yeah, this. That said, some managers prefer to give their instructions in writing. If I got a manager who preferred assigning tasks to me verbally, I’d always send them an email to confirm that I understood them correctly. I’d also be looking for a new job because I prefer working for a manager who gives instructions in writing.

    9. BRR*

      Have you brought up the issue directly? That you’ve noticed they frequently have to circle back to you on tasks and ask what’s going on?

      1. Escaped a Work Cult*

        I should be more direct. We’ve had “I’ve repeated this three times, you need to have it sink in your brain” but I honestly think I’m missing the feedback. Why is this employee not catching

        1. Sylvan*

          Oh boy. It sounds like they’re kind of comfortable dropping the ball.

          If you think it truly is a memory issue, try giving instructions and other information in writing. I have ADHD and the working memory issues that come with it, and some solutions have been:

          – Taking notes on paper, although it sounds like your employee isn’t taking notes
          – Keeping notes in the Sticky Notes app and keeping them visible all day long
          – Using my phone or Alexa to set future reminders for myself
          – Taking photos of things (ex. non-confidential documents, locations of items I think I’ll lose)

          Also, if I feel I’ve forgotten something, I try searching my email inbox and Teams for a few relevant words or phrases. These are all things she can try — if she can remember to try them. But it’s ultimately her responsibility, not yours.

          1. Sylvan*

            By the way, when I’m suggesting giving instructions in writing, I don’t mean anything particularly formal or demanding (if you have time to try it at all). I mean if you need to ask her to do something, and you can choose to message or email her instead of asking out loud, try that.

    10. Chriama*

      Have them take notes and read their notes back to you before you leave. Also serious coaching about how this is a performance issue that could affect raises/his continued employment with you.

    11. Middle Manager*

      I use OneNote with my staff during their 1-1 meetings. Both of us can type in it while we talk adding “to-do items” based on the conversation. I prefer that the staff add the items themselves, but for some of my more disorganized staff, I’d rather do more of the entry than have to repeat the instruction later. It’s also nice that they can check them off as done in the OneNote and I’ll see it without having to ask them about it.

    12. PollyQ*

      I like the suggestions of giving them their instructions in written form, but I wonder if you’ve named the general problem with them? “Fergus, I find that when I tell you to do something, you have a great deal of trouble remembering and keeping track of it. Being responsible for this on your own, without repeatedly asking me, is a core function of your job.” Then ask them what they think might be helpful, and see if that’s a reasonable way for you to go forward. It’s sort of too bad that you can’t ask about possible medical issues, because I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s something like that in play here, but I gather that’s a real no-no under ADA.

      Ultimately though, there’s only so much coaching a boss can do, and an employee keeping track of the work they’ve been given is a basic part of almost every job. If they can’t or won’t do that, you’ll need to think about moving them out of the role.

    13. Emilitron*

      First step – bring it up as an ongoing problem that needs to be fixed, not an adorable quirk or the way things are.
      Second step – tell them to take notes (sounds like you have).
      But now they have to use those notes – when they say “ok” ask them to repeat back to you the outline of what they’re going to go do. If it’s vague ask details (you wrote down “Jeff”, do you remember what you need to get from him?)
      I mean, you say coaching conversations have failed, now what? Either more coaching else tell them they’re headed to PIP, or maybe intermediate step work on the consequences – right now they don’t remember so they ask you and you tell them. That’s a problem for you because it’s wasting your time, but is it a problem for them? How can you make it their problem? Maybe you start coaching them on what to do instead of asking you, if you weren’t available what would they do, and maybe after they waste their own time doing the wrong thing they’ll feel the pain a bit more and be more ready to make a change. Or maybe they do actually kind of know and they’re just insecure about doing it when they aren’t 100% certain – so instead of asking you “what do I do” get them to start asking you “is X the right thing”.

  15. Betty*

    A former colleague got in touch a few months ago about an opening at her new company. It is basically my current role, but at a more functional workplace. I talked to her about the position and the company and decided to apply. I did a screening interview with HR, an interview with the hiring manager, and then a final interview 1/2 day interview with a bunch of folks I would be working with plus the hiring manager. My former colleague was part of this and texted me after to say she thought I did great. It’s now about a week after when the hiring manager had expected to have a decision. Would it be inappropriate/annoying/pushy to contact my former colleague and see if she has any inside info on whether they’ve decided to go with another candidate? Should I give it another week or so?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’d leave her out of it at this point – if she knows they’re going with someone else, it’s a little awkward for her to have that conversation with you, plus as not-the-hiring-manager, it’s super not her role in the situation to be the one telling you pretty much anything about the decision making process, and if she does she could get in trouble with her employer.

      1. Betty*

        Thanks! I was thinking the same, but my impatience was starting to get the best of me thinking “hmmm….maybe that’s an okay thing to ask her.” I very much appreciate your response!

    3. AuntieCorn*

      I’d give it another week or so. I make the hiring decisions for my time and sometimes despite my best intentions, things just take longer than expected due to any number/combination of unrelated issues. Two weeks would be reasonable to check with your connection there to see if she has any insight on the expected timeline.

      1. Cj*

        ^^This. Ask about the timeline for a decision, but not about whether they decided to go with another candidate. Even is they decided to go with you, and she knows it, it is not her place to tell you.

    4. SentientAmoeba*

      I feel your pain on the waiting. I was invited to apply for an amazing job that would be a step up from where I am now. I made it to the final 2 and she promised a decision within a week. That was 3 weeks ago. I already sent a follow up and I am itching to send another.

      1. Product Person*

        It may help to think this way:

        Sending follow ups is highly unlike to make things go faster, and may very well create unnecessary friction in your relationship with the potential employer. Unless you want to inform them that now you have another offer and would appreciate if they have any updates because they are your first choice but you will need to make a decision soon, there’s no benefit for the recipient. When I’m hiring, follow-up emails only add to my workload and make things slow down because I can’t just ignore them and now need to stop what I’m doing to see if anyone has a new timeline fot ne to provide to the candidate.

        Things get delayed for all sorts of reasons: a signature is needed from someone who is out sick, or the meeting to approve the budget got postponed, etc. Better to accept this reality and move on as if you didn’t get the job. Hopefully things just slowed down and and you’ll be pleasantly surprised when they get back to you with good news.

  16. LessNosy*

    Today is my last day at my current job!! I start my new job next Friday (but that day will be mostly setting up my computer equipment and signing up for benefits).

    I was wondering if anyone had any advice on letting go? I’m already finding it difficult to just let go of projects. I’m trying to micromanage and set things in place up until the very last minute. I’ve been here 7 years so I guess that makes sense…

    I’m planning on reserving a specific time of day to answer any texts or emails with questions from my old coworkers/boss about my responsibilities and projects, but is there anything else anyone can suggest to fully transition my brain out of this job, and especially to take advantage of the week I have off before starting my new job? :)

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      This time reservation for questions, is this just a personal thing where you’ve mentally budgeted some time to respond to any quick questions you’ve received just after you left, like “I’m going to take a look and spend one half hour of one Saturday while I drink coffee to see if they needed anything”, or are you planning on offering your soon-to-be-old-job essentially office hours and invite them to contact you with questions? I wouldn’t do any of that honestly. It’s kind, but you won’t work there anymore, it literally won’t be your job to answer their questions. Alison has mentioned that it’s nice to answer one or two quick questions, but they needed to use your notice period to ask any questions and get everything they need, if you got hit by a bus they would have to figure things out on their own.

      The best way to take advantage of the week you have off before starting your new job is to not spend any of it doing things for your old job. Congrats on the new job!

    2. New Mom*

      I would recommend offering to be a paid consultant versus allowing them to reach out for questions on an ongoing basis.

    3. Cascadia*

      I think you’ll find that once you start the new job the old job will fade away! It’s hard to let go when you’re still in it, but once you’re not doing the work every day, and you’re focused on something new, I think you’ll just naturally let it all go. It may happen a bit at a time, but I’m betting a month from now you won’t be thinking about old job, and a few months from now it’ll be completely gone from your brain.

  17. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    Having a hard week this week. There was a boil water advisory so I couldn’t get coffee, they scheduled intensive training for the end of the month ( break out rooms and little projects. Couldn’t get anything done). I had an emergency on Monday that pushed me back and now we find that one of the physical forms can only be started on the 21st? That usually gives a single week and if the person you need is not there, you have missing documentation. And of course one big piece can only be STARTED on the 25th- pushing all your regular work ( still all due in 24 hours!) To the side.
    I’ve been working 12 hour days and not making much of a dent in my workload. I nearly screamed when the new girl got a set of five all by herself and I was going to need to help, but luckily, they somehow figured that out without me. Next month, the same thing again, but hopefully I’ll remember that events that did not happen can’t be logged on the same day ( EVEN FOR THE SAME SET!) I’m dying here.

    1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

      From the Baytown area of Houston? Because my family has been dealing with boil water notices for weeks. I’m so sorry!

        1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

          As far as feeling like you’re not making a dent in your workload, what helped me stop pulling my hair out was actually writing down the things I accomplished, and I mean even the SMALLEST parts because some were so important and I kind of disregarded them because they “were too easy, or what I would do anyway, or not specialized tasks, or things anyone can do”. Replied to emails? Important. Researched a term? Important. No matter how small. This helps me against imposter syndom too when I feel like I just am not accomplishing anything. It will also really help you get a better picture of how your time is spent, AND be handy documentation should you ever need to discuss delegating tasks with your boss.

          1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

            I have two separate organizers. One a to do list and one a chart I print off with end of the month tasks.( it would take too much time to do tasks x person) I knock off a good number of to dos but more come to replace them.

            1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

              Then it sounds like you really have enough evidence to perhaps go to your boss to ask for back-up? An assistant? More people in the department?

              1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

                ….it is a one person job. I think several roles have been compressed or…conflated here so that what was once possible for one person to do became super crazy.

    2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      My mom is like ” you work so long because you are a perfectionist ” No, I work so long because I am scraping my brain fot no information that doesn’t exist and looking at other people’s work because sometimes they say I didn’t do something even though I included it I’m the same place with the same amount of detail that other people are using!

  18. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

    Anyone know the customary time to follow up after an interview in Germany? Interview was last Friday, was promised to hear back with a decision on Monday, and now it’s Friday. Alison says for the states to wait a week or two. But here?

        1. Anne Kaffeekanne*

          German here, and yes, I think you can definitely follow up after Monday. I’d give it longer if they hadn’t given you a timeframe.

    2. Usedtoliveingermany*

      The more formal (hierarchical) the company culture, the longer I’d wait to check in. You’re probably safe to check in this coming week but do so extra politely.

    3. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

      Thanks everyone! 9 hours after posting this they contacted me with an offer! I give a lot of credit to the good juju in this commentariat :D I’ve been job searching for 18 months so this is SUCH a blessing. Thank you!

  19. NeonDreams*

    Two senior people have left or are leaving my department this month. I’m so jealous because I’m barely keep my head above water emotionally even though I desperately want to leave. I wish I had the strength and competence they do.

      1. NeonDreams*

        I’m burnt out at my job. It takes all of my mental energy to do it every day that I don’t have any left to do any searching after work. I say competence because I’m not very confident in my abilities since I’m spending so much time just holding myself together. Yes, I’m in therapy and I’m working on it.

        1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

          OOOHH I was RIGHT there in 2018. I would come home and absolutely zone out, or cry, or just scroll till I slept. What helped me SO much was actually writing out possible “getting out plans”, even if they were absolutely unrealistic. I wrote down such things as “become a military chaplain”, “go to grad school”, “move out of the country”, all random and whatever came to mind. Ya know what? I ended up leaving the country to go back to Germany with my husband where we could afford rent on lower-paying jobs. It was completely the opposite of my plans but it wouldn’t have happened if I didn’t just start my brain working on possible escape plans to make myself feel a little more empowered and a lot less trapped.

        2. Asenath*

          I was in a very bad position once with a job I was afraid to leave. I got out of that situation and have had an infinitely better life since – but if I could go back and talk to my younger self, I’d have told myself to make the time to find a different job even if I had to do in in tiny baby steps. Checking job lists one day, deciding what to do about one possibility another day and a second possibility or maybe another job resource on another day. Nothing that took more than a few minutes at a time, but something that gave me the feeling I was heading out of the morass. Being so exhausted and stressed that I thought I couldn’t job hunt just meant that things got worse until I had to do that anyway. Talk to your therapist about your confidence in your competence and your lack of mental energy – both very common reactions to such a situation – and take baby steps to move on, without pressuring yourself to do a job hunt completely and perfectly.

  20. CatCat*

    Is two weeks still standard notice for someone working part-time?

    In this situation, the employee used to work full-time, but hours were cut early in the pandemic and never restored (despite a promise to restore the hours in the fall). The employee has been looking for a different, full-time job ever since the restoration of hours never materialized. The employee really needs full-time work and now has promising leads. It seems odd to me that 2 weeks would still be standard here, but I don’t know if I’m off base.

      1. CatCat*

        Because it seems like one week should be enough. If the org really needs 40 hours worth of work in the notice period, they can get that in one week instead of dragging the employee through two 20 hour weeks (which was not what the employee even signed up for when they took the job).

        1. Chriama*

          2 weeks’ notice is standard. However, this seems a little more like leaving a temp job to me. Like, of course you’re going to go for the full time job with benefits over the job that cut your hours. If they wanted you to stay, they would have paid you. I would give as little notice as you need, and if anyone tries to make something of this in the future you tell them “they cut my hours and pay by 50% and I couldn’t afford to stay longer. (BTW cutting your pay by that much sounds like constructive dismissal, which means you would have been eligible for unemployment. I’m not sure how that works now that you’re leaving, but maybe contact someone and see if you can get it backdated. It could be a nice little bonus to start your new job with!)

        2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          Hm, I don’t usually think of it as “40 hours worth of work” in the notice period, but more like 2 working weeks to get a plan of coverage together for when the position is vacant. But in this case (like most cases) the employee should do what’s best for them even if that means not giving a standard 2 week notice.

          1. Cj*

            Yes, but you could do the same 40 hours of getting the plan together working full time in one week as if you spread the 40 hours over two 20 hour weeks.

    3. Coco*

      How part time? Like a consistent, set schedule of 20ish hours a week? Or do they get scheduled here and there and it isn’t consistent? If the latter, I’d think less than 2 weeks would be fine. If the former, 2 weeks sounds standard.

    4. Boundaries*

      Unwritten rules for where I am are either two weeks (usually shift work) or the paycheck interval (salaried/full time), unless specified.

    5. kt*

      I’d think that if there are other part-timers, one week would be fine because someone else could pick up the hours.

    6. Malarkey01*

      I think 2 weeks is still standard, BUT with the caveat that if you were reduced to PT by a company, a company should understand that you are going to need to jump ship to FT faster since you probably really need the money. Although a totally valid business decision, they forfeit some of the transition expectations when they previously cut your hours and pay in my opinion.

    7. NopityNope*

      So the company cuts their hours—and income!—by half, but expects two weeks’ notice? Get real. If a company did that to me, I’d happily walk out the door with NO notice as soon as I got a full-time job. It’s a custom, not a rule, and it doesn’t override someone’s need to pay the damned bills. Any decent manager would understand this. And realistically, should be expecting it when they take away half of someone’s income. It doesn’t really matter if the cutbacks were because of COVID. The employee has to look out for their own interests—because the company is definitely looking out only for the company’s interest.

    8. PollyQ*

      Give 2 weeks, not because the company “deserves” it, but because doing anything else may burn a bridge WRT to future references. And it isn’t just a question of how much work the employee will get done, it’s how much time the other employees get to deal with the transition of knowledge.

      (Theoretically, one could make an argument that the notice time should be longer, so that the rest of the office gets the full 80 hours of handover time that a fulltime employee who gave 2 weeks notice would. I personally would not make that argument, but if you think about it from the standpoint of what notice is for, it would make a certain amount of sense.)

  21. Amber Rose*

    My employee review is this afternoon and I’m tense. The last couple months have not been sparkling rays of productive sunshine from me, and I’ve been reprimanded once for it already. For various reasons, right after Christmas break my mental health just tanked and I’m not sleeping or eating well so I’m basically a walking disaster and this level of half-assed is literally my best effort since 90% of my focus is on not collapsing. That said, I’m working on improving it anyway. Bit by bit.

    Last year I accomplished tons of stuff, and I’m still responsive and getting work done, so I guess I’m wondering, in people’s experience, how bad is it that my last 2 months have been a little rough if overall I’m still doing my job and prior to this patch I was doing great?

    As an aside, please don’t even start with the therapy talk. I. Do. Not. Have. Money. In fact I have less money than ever because my husband is looking at pay cuts.

    1. Can't Sit Still*

      It sounds like you are doing as well as could be expected by a reasonable person. I suspect that your boss isn’t reasonable, though.

      I hope your review goes well this afternoon.

    2. ThatGirl*

      I think it’s normal to hit a wall sometimes, and I know a lot of people have had a rough winter! It’s OK to be gentle with/kind to yourself.

      I hope that therapy could be an option someday, but in the meantime, can you take a day or a long weekend off? Give yourself a mental break? Do things that make you feel restored — a hot bath or a long walk or a good book or a talk with a friend? (Just suggestions – you know yourself best.)

      1. Amber Rose*

        I have a 4 day weekend booked in two weeks. I tried to take one over my birthday last week but the person I share reception responsibilities with beat me to it so I couldn’t.

        I’m planning on a significant chunk of time off in June for my 10th anniversary so I’m limited in how much time I can take off anyway.

    3. Annie Moose*

      Oh man, this could describe me. Ironically my employee review turned out better than I expected… I think sometimes we build things up as worse than they are because we’re so close to our problems and we know them so well, but to an outsider they genuinely might not realize the same way.

      I feel like a reasonable manager would be able to look at things overall and be like, hmm, something happened here, but up until recently everything was good. Everything depends on what your manager is like, of course, but a decent manager should be willing to hear acknowledgement that yes, things slipped, but you’ve been working to course correct and have made improvements on XYZ/are trying strategy ABC. (even if secretly you’re thinking that it’s not all magically fixed… I know that feeling all too well!)

      Best of luck with your review. Good or bad, I’m sure it will be a relief to just have it be over!

    4. HR Exec Popping In*

      I am sorry you are struggling. It is hard to answer your question because it will depend on your manager and how significant the performance change has been. If your manager is generally reasonable and the change in performance went from slightly above average most of the year to slightly below average for the last few months, I wouldn’t expect this to be a problem, but your manager would still likely acknowledge the change in performance. If you went from the highest performance level to just barely average, you might see an impact on your performance rating and in this case your manager will absolutely want to talk about what has happened. Now, if someone’s performance level drops to a level that is significantly below average for any sustained period of time, this could result in someone being placed on a PIP, but that does not sound like your situation.

      If you trust your manager, be honest that you are struggling with some non-work related issues right now that you know are effecting your performance level but that you are working on fixing this. Be prepared to answer a question about what you need from your manager to help.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      If I am following along correctly your place is a hot mess.

      Eh, we have had 11 months of Covid. If your last two months were bad, then you are probably doing better than 50% of the people out there.

      It doesn’t really matter what we think, what is important here is to figure out how you want to respond to a bad eval.
      Make a list of things you have done well. (Pick like 5 strong things.)
      Then make a list of things you plan on beefing up. (Pick maybe 3 things.)

      Then go into the meeting knowing that you have lined up something you can say in that meeting.

      1. Joan Rivers*

        There are non-profits w/sliding fee scales sometimes offering therapy. It may not be quite as “sophisticated” as more expensive therapy.

        But when my mediocre therapist used to be late — a real NO-NO to me — I realized I started the “process” w/o her, organizing my thoughts and prioritizing what I wanted to discuss.

        We still end up deciding if we accept or reject a therapist’s advice, so we have to remember they’re not doing “magic” — it’s all on us ultimately. But we can learn the process.

  22. Exhausted Frontline Worker*

    I am likely getting a job offer from local government (large city) soon. Current and ex-government employees, what should I know about transitioning from private/non-profit sector to government?

    What I think I’m most anxious about is right now I have a ton of freedom in my job, and I know I’ll probably lose that in a government setting. Like I have very few deadlines or deliverables expected of me in my current job, I’m just given a very broad goals and told to work towards it however I see fit (as long as I spend $0!) and my supervision is minimal. There’s always so much work to be done, but I’m just trusted to figure it out and do it. Over a few years I’ve been able to figure out how to manage that type of environment and lack of structure, but it was initially a struggle and not everyone performs well in that environment. It’s also been a big source of stress for me and a reason I’ve been looking to change jobs, but at the same time I think it will be hard to move back into a very structured environment. For context, I’d be moving from working in social services to program administration in social services–most social services in my area are largely funded by local and state government grants.

    1. Spearmint*

      I’ve only worked in government jobs and know many people who also have. Something I didn’t appreciate at first is how the scope of the program or service your running will defined by law, and so there is much less room to start new projects or initiatives, even when you and management agree that a particular project would be worthwhile. This is liberating and constraining in different ways. On the positive side, the scope of your work is truly finite, and this contributes to a slower pace and better work-life balance. On the negative side, it can slow your career growth and, perhaps, make work a bit more boring at times.

      That said, don’t make assumptions about what you can and can’t do. Ask! There’s a lot of variability about how much structure, and what is and is not set in stone, between departments and roles.

    2. Paris Geller*

      You might be surprised! I’m a municipal employee and I have a lot of freedom in my job. To be fair, a lot of that has to do with my manager being relatively hands-off (she’s great–not negligent, just gives me a lot of freedom. I know that set up doesn’t work for everyone but I love it). I’m a librarian, so the context is different, but while our department does have certain things that have to be done, we have a lot of freedom in how we do it. This is not the first city I’ve worked for, though, so I will say every city is different. You probably will have more deadlines since it sounds like a large portion of what you’ll be doing is grant-funded, but you might have more freedom in how things get done then you think.

      As for what you should know. . . well, it’s probably something you already know, but expect a lot of red tape for things that traditionally don’t even require red tape. Since you’ve worked in social services you may be more used to that, but when you’re working for any government at any level, there’s just a lot of crossing the t’s and dotting the i’s to make sure everything is above board. Of course, I think most of us ARE above board employees and 90% of the requirements make sense, but there will definitely be times when you think, “Really?? I have to go through all THAT just to get this?”. Again, if you’ve worked with grant-funded projects before you’re probably use to this, but be prepared to justify everything, from supplies requested to how much time you spend on project X.

      1. Msnotmrs*

        State librarian here, and I agree with this 100%. In my role (1-person library in a larger institutional setting) I have a great deal of freedom to do what I want, but I sometimes get completely blindsided by the constraints of red tape, rules and regs, etc. I also operate with a minimum of oversight; my boss is great but she doesn’t know my job and doesn’t pretend she knows it, and she has a whole program she runs in addition to being my manager.

    3. Workerbee*

      The structure of government work varies widely, depending on the actual job. My job has a combination of mandatory paperwork that must be filed in a mandatory order by certain deadlines, and the flexibility to get that done however I like. My usual day is about 60% unstructured. Program administration would be more structured than that.

    4. Monty and Millie's Mom*

      I’ve been in gov’t job for about 2 1/2 years now. You know all the complaints about inefficiency of government and how they don’t get things done, or it takes a million years? Yeah, I’ve found that those have real merit. The system isn’t set up to change on a whim, and I KINDA get that, but also – this is very much a chain-of-command type place, which is somewhat difficult across departments, at least the ones I deal with. Some will deal only with lead worker or supervisor or manager level, and since I’m below that, it can take awhile to get a response b/c it has to go through so many levels! Just – it’s inefficient. If you are okay with that, you might find a fair amount of freedom, but if you’re a “there’s a much better way to do this, let’s get this changed”, go-getter kind of person, you might find that frustrating!
      That said, someone mentioned above that government jobs vary quite a bit, so maybe they are not all like this?

      1. Paris Geller*

        Yes. I think that’s what I was trying at in my comment above–everything in local government, in my experience, is on a very much need-to-know basis, even things that aren’t that important. A lot of things will need to be signed off on before you can proceed, and that can be very frustrating, especially if you’re in a department that doesn’t operate strict 9-to-5 and having to communicate with departments that do.

    5. Policy Wonk*

      Don’t assume you know what the government does in this area, just because you worked with the government on the outside. New people from outside government often make helpful suggestions that we should consider doing x, something we’ve been doing for years.

      In program administration there are often lots of documents and forms that are standard. If you are tired of saying happy and change it to glad someone might think it means there is a change in policy. So keep that staid, boring language unless you really do mean to change things.

      Given that you’re coming from social services, you are probably already accustomed to delays in getting supplies, or lots of paperwork to request new equipment, but that is a fact of life in government.

      Like any other job, how much freedom you have will depend on your actual supervisor, not the nature of the job.

      Good luck with your new challenges!

    6. Exhausted Frontline Worker*

      Thanks everyone for your insights! I have also been told by others outside of AAM to expect a lot of bureaucracy and for things to move very slowly. I live in a large city (over 500k population) with a proportionally large local government, but I imagine there may not necessarily be the same amount of bureaucracy working for a smaller municipality. Working in social services has indeed made me good at navigating bureaucracy created by other organizations, but I still think it will be a shift in perspective being on the inside maintaining the status quo versus the outside trying to untangle it. I’m still worried about the pace of things being too slow because I know I have a tendency to get bored and frustrated. I’ve spent the last few years juggling too many balls–and they’re always all on fire–so while this will be a healthier balance, I’ve gotten accustomed to it. But the pay bump alone will be worth it!

  23. Goose*

    Today is a s**tshow, but it’s fine. I’m a wreck, I’m doing my best, and I am eating hamentashen by the handful. When your topsy turvy day is on Purim, you know there’s some humor in the universe. Chag sameach all!

  24. Don't personality type me*

    Got the dreaded (and unexpected) personality test, to be followed by an as yet, unscheduled “workshop” being disguised as “training.” This one is Insights Discovery. Anyone tried this one? Any better or worse than others?

    1. Green Snickers*

      I did that one about a year ago. I actually found it more helpful than most assessments I’ve done before and seemed more personalized others. The one I did produced a 3 page report of my personality traits and I found it to be very accurate.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I haven’t, but your post made me think that we need to have personality tests to see which personality test is best suited for each person.

    3. Cat Tree*

      I’ve done that one. It wasn’t as terrible as some, but also not particularly helpful. I somehow managed to land in two opposite categories.

    4. Hillary*

      I like that one – it wasn’t much of a surprise to me, but it was a larger surprise to some of my less self-aware colleagues. And it was helpful to understand just how similar we all are and the pitfalls from it. Sometimes we use it as a shortcut for moods or approaches talking to people, it works surprisingly well.

      1. WellRed*

        So in the workshop, will they be sharing everyone’s results around to the group? Which should be interesting, since my little team doesn’t know or work with the main team and mostly never will (we were acquired by bigger company and there’s no intersection most of the time, certainly not for my role).

    5. Your Local Cdn*

      The assessment you get is pretty detailed (I’ll be honest – I gamed the test because I dislike these things), but what they actually share is your most prominent “colour” – one of 4, which is very high level. The workshop leader will discuss what the detailed results could indicate but your individual results aren’t generally shared with other people.

  25. Free Meerkats*

    I have done very little hiring, and that I’ve done has been has been through the Civil Service system.

    My question is, Why the prejudice against applicants who are unemployed? The common rubric is that it’s easier to get a job if you have a job, why is that?

    1. D3*

      If you’re unemployed, there must be something wrong with you.
      If you’re unemployed, it’s because no one else wants you, so why should I?
      If you’re unemployed, you must not be able to keep a job.

      I don’t agree with it, but that’s the thinking.

    2. Jenn*

      When I was job searching after being laid off, I saw something that said companies assume there is a reason that were laid off. Even if there were multiple layoffs for business reasons, the perception is that the former employer picked the under performing to sacrifice. And once you are unemployed, it’s “obviously” your fault that you couldn’t find another job immediately (never mind that your field is oversaturated. It took me 18 months to find a new job and I beat out 150+ applicants for a job in a not-very-appealing part of the country.) And the longer you are unemployed, the more your skills supposedly deteriorate (never mind that you may be engaging in training to make yourself a stronger candidate.)

      1. londonedit*

        Yes. There’s just been a study published that suggests a fairly shocking number of people in the UK believe that anyone who’s lost their job over the last year must be in some way responsible – that it must have come down to poor performance rather than the sheer bad luck of working in a hard-hit industry during a global pandemic. If people think that about job losses in 2020, imagine what they must think in ‘normal times’. It’s completely unfair and unfounded, but I think there will always – in some people’s minds at least – be a suspicion attached to someone who’s left a job before they have another one lined up. I’ve done it once during my career, and while there were interviewers who totally accepted my ‘It wasn’t the right fit, and I decided to use the opportunity to do some freelance work while looking for a job that was truly right for me’ explanation, there were definitely others who seemed convinced that there must be some sort of dark secret hiding behind it all.

        1. Cj*

          I did have a dark secret hiding behind why I left a job. But it wasn’t my secret, it was the companies, and I couldn’t share it because of an NDA. I wasn’t even supposed to say I had an NDA. It was interesting in interviews when asked why I left my previous job.

    3. Semi Woke Small Business Owner*

      As an employer, when times were more normal, I did look at the circumstances if someone was unemployed. Were they laid off and then sat home collecting unemployment for 6 months before even starting to look for another job? Were they let go for poor performance? It all depended on why they were unemployed, and definitely check references to verify. With Covid, lots more unemployed people so I would certainly not let it be a deal breaker. Advantage is if they are not employed they may be able to start right away.

      1. Free Meerkats*

        “Were they laid off and then sat home collecting unemployment for 6 months…?”

        That’s the kind of prejudice I’m talking about. Why does that matter? Are they not showing enough gumption? Maybe they needed the 6 months to recharge. Maybe they had the savings and decided to take a break. Please explain the reasoning behind that view.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Shall we say, “lesser talented”? Lesser talented managers rely on superficial things to guide their decision making.

          Sometimes they need a reason to eliminate a candidate and any reason will do, after all there are just too many applications to deal with.

        2. aarti*

          Or maybe they had health issues they’re not comfortable revealing?

          Or maybe they’re applying only to jobs that they’re a good fit for, not just sending applications for the sake of it?

          Totally agree this is a poor metric.

      2. Large Hippo*

        How would you have access to the knowledge that someone “sat home collecting unemployment for 6 months before even starting to look for a job”? Lay offs can come as a huge surprise to a lot of people and it may take some time to get a job search going. They can also be a huge blow to a person’s mental health which can be a hurdle that needs to be jumped before starting a job search. Also, they could have started job searching the moment they were let go and you’re just making an assumption because finding a job is taking longer than you think it should.

      3. Double A*

        Looking for a job is a condition of collecting unemployment, so if they are collecting unemployment, they are inherently looking for a job.

    4. deesse877*

      Honestly, it’s just a proxy for bigotry, like so much else. Effectively favors the already-privileged.

    5. HR Exec Popping In*

      I actually think it is a lazy way to screen candidates out as it is possible the candidate got fired. Often hiring managers have so many qualified candidates you are looking for ways to screen out candidates as you can’t talk to all of them.

    6. BRR*

      I think the common concerns are A) Wondering if a candidate was fired B) If a candidate left with nothing lined up, perhaps because a job was toxic, is the candidate high maintenance C) are the candidate’s skills stale

      1. Cj*

        If they left because the job with nothing lined up because the job was toxic, it was probably somebody else, not them, who was high maintenance.

        1. BRR*

          I agree! I meant what the hiring side’s perspective/concern might be. I personally think it’s absurd that candidates can’t really be supper honest if they left a toxic job.

    7. RC Rascal*

      I also think that most people who work for corporations and have never been laid off grossly underestimate their own employability. They are not realistic about what goes into job searches and how long they can sometimes take. Therefore, they do not appreciate the unemployed candidate.

  26. Theory of Eeveelution*

    I lost my job last April due to COVID, and since I’m still unemployed I’m very seriously considering going back to school for a second bachelor’s degree. I’d love to hear from others who have done this. I’m a bit apprehensive about being a 35 year-old woman back in undergrad, especially since I have a master’s: I’m now very used to the professor-grad student dynamic, and I feel like it’s going to be hard being an undergrad again.

    Thoughts?

    2. Bex*

      My big question is why? Do you think you need a second degree for a career change? Do you like school and just want to go back?

    3. ThatGirl*

      If you already have a master’s degree, what would you gain by getting another bachelor’s? A second bachelor’s degree is rarely very useful anyway. What field would you like to go into that you think another degree would help with?

      1. Theory of Eeveelution*

        Because my previous degrees are in fine arts. I’m going back for computer science. A complete career change.

        1. EconomySized*

          At my current company (in software) we’ve hired quite a few engineers with fine arts backgrounds who attended coding boot camps.
          If you find the right program, it might be a better alternative to a 4 year degree.

          1. Theory of Eeveelution*

            Coding bootcamps are criminally expensive, though. I’ve thought about it, but I just can’t afford it. At least with a BS I can apply for scholarships. Also a second bachelor’s isn’t 4 years, it’s only 30 credit hours.

            2. kt*

              That’s really interesting. Where I live, there is a mix of criminally expensive and quite cost-effective bootcamps. They serve different populations. My company also has a training program for non-traditional software engineers, in which participants get training 50% of the time and are assigned to work projects 50% of the time. This program has been really useful in both helping people get into the field and, frankly, getting us cost-effective and talented people (someone with 0 experience is paid less, but still a decent wage, and it’s my understanding that salary goes up as you complete the program — and it saves you the cost of the bootcamp/degree).

              Anyhow, I’m sure you’ve looked into your local options, but these bridge programs from some corporations are sometimes less well known.

            3. meyer lemon*

              Forgive me if you’ve already done this, but have you tried broadening your search for coding bootcamps that are outside of your region? It seems likely that most are being offered remotely at the moment. I just ask because I know a few people who have done them, and they were much, much cheaper than an undergrad degree (particularly if you factor in living expenses). I’m sure some are better than others, but my local one is very focused on job placement.

              1. meyer lemon*

                I should add, while I’m sure computer science degrees vary too, I know a couple of people who completed them and then needed to do a coding bootcamp or a lot of personal projects because their CS degree didn’t actually teach them practical coding skills.

        2. Epsilon Delta*

          You might want to consider a two year/associates degree in computer science. Quality and price can vary, but it is definitely worth looking into.

    4. AcademiaNut*

      I do know one person who did this – they went back for a had science degree with specific career goals when their first degree was in social sciences, and are now working in the new field. I also know a few people who did bachelor’s degrees in their thirties.

      I would say you’d need very strong, focussed and well thought out career reasons for doing so, in a field with good job prospects, and have a plan that doesn’t involve taking out extensive student loans. Doing a random second degree is a really expensive and time consuming way to keep yourself occupied, unless you happen to be independently wealthy and don’t need the income.

      1. Theory of Eeveelution*

        Second degree isn’t random: it’s in computer science. My BFA and MFA are in fine arts. That’s a pretty solid career change. Money isn’t an issue.

        1. Peachtree*

          It’s a bit confusing – you say that money isn’t an issue but you can’t afford a coding camp. But I can’t imagine that a coding camp is cheaper than college? Am I missing something?

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      What would be your purpose in doing so?

      Personal experience: I went for a second bachelor degree after finishing two masters, when I was also in my mid-30s. But mine was literally just questing for the piece of paper – I didn’t change career fields or anything, I wanted to take the high-level certification exam in my current career field and it requires a bachelor (or masters) degree in Health Information Management from a program accredited by a specific accrediting body to qualify to sit the exam – my public health degree and masters degrees were not enough to cut it. So I selected a self-paced online program through WGU that let me hurry through the degree. I had zero interactions with any other students in my school or program, but there was generally very little that I was actually needing to learn from the program since I’d already been working in the career field for almost fifteen years. (Disclaimer: I have a lot of grumbles about the whole situation on several levels. :P It didn’t feel like a particularly academic experience, and it wasn’t a useful experience at all, but I passed my certification exam, which was my ultimate goal. However, I passed the exam based entirely on my experience, with pretty much nothing useful having come out of the academic program. I do not recommend WGU as anything other than a “I’ve been doing this for years and I need to tick the box that says I have this degree” school; their teaching is crap.)

      All that to say, depending on what your goal is, you might have options that could make the experience look very different. Also, take into consideration: apparently some universities won’t accept people into bachelor degree programs who already have a bachelor degree. (Every time I say I have two bachelor degrees, a few people get all weird like “how is that even possible, they don’t allow that.”)

      1. Theory of Eeveelution*

        This is interesting. I was originally thinking about a fully online program, and ended up decided to go back to the same school that I got my master’s from. I feared exactly what you write here, that an online experience wouldn’t feel academic.

        This would be a complete career change. My BFA and MFA are in fine arts, and I’m going back for computer science. I could probably knock it out in 3 semesters.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Well, let me clarify — *an* online school experience can totally feel academic. One of my two masters programs was fully online and that was absolutely a valuable academic experience.

          *THIS* online experience, with WGU, in which I had no interaction with instructors or fellow students (literally I can count on one hand the number of times I interacted with an instructor), didn’t feel like an academic experience at all. But that was because of the way the school constructs their classes and the way the program was structured.

          I think in computer science you would probably not be the only non-traditional student, so it might not be as bad as you’re worrying. You could also check in with the student affairs office and ask them about ways they support nontraditional students. (And prepare for some funny stories. At one point in grad school, I was in a public policy seminar and we were watching a slightly dated video where they started talking about a boombox. Me and the professor were both in our mid 30s, the other two women in the seminar had gone straight from undergrad to grad school so they were 21, 22. We had to stop the video and explain to them what a boombox was, because they legitimately didn’t know the term.)

          2. SentientAmoeba*

            When I did my MBA there was a disconnect in the class when we talked about the actual workplace vs. modelling it. I had an authenticator for logging in remotely to work and to the under 23 crowd, it was a cool gadget (This was before everyone started doing it as a text message or on an app).
            We would also have some discussions about workplaces and you could easily tell who had never had a professional role before.

    6. Twisted Lion*

      I did this because I wanted to switch the STEM. I found with STEM professional certifications will get you further than a degree. I dont know if this helps at all. It did help me reorient my career but Im not working in STEM yet (sigh) but its ok, Im happy with the direction Im going.

      1. Theory of Eeveelution*

        This is a career switch to STEM. My other degrees are in fine arts, and I’m going back for computer science. What professional certifications do you wish you’d done?

        1. Twisted Lion*

          Any of the CompTia ones like Security+ or Network+. Or the Cisco ones. You might look into boot camps in your area or even just getting a one of those IT certificates Ive seen some schools offer instead of a full bachelors.

    7. Don't personality type me*

      I can’t speak from per sonal experience, by my aunt had an MBA, then, probably around age 40 or 45 went back for her BS in computer science. Never looked back, got a job with the state and retired a few years ago. She was the only woman in the group and older, but she still made friends with fellow students.

    8. AGD*

      A friend of mine did a BA in the social sciences, and now works as a software engineer. In between, she didn’t do a second BA, but training with Flatiron School.

    9. byte me*

      I went back for a second bachelors because I wanted to change careers from a teacher to a software engineer. After a couple semesters, I was able to get a job in the tech field (not as an engineer since I didn’t have the right degree for that), and a few years later switched to software, without actually completing the degree. I did already have a BS (it wasn’t a technical degree though), so they did give me the engineer title when I switched to software. With your BA, you may actually need to finish the degree to get an engineering title/pay.

      As for worrying about being older, there were several others in the degree program that were older and we all kinda grouped together. I was the youngest in the group since I was only in my mid-20s at the time (the others were in their 30s/40s), but I already felt out of touch with the kids just out of high school.

    10. Chilipepper*

      I got a second bachelors in my 40s and it really was so much fun because I only took courses in the major. I enjoyed every minute of it. I found that I had such a handle on getting things done that it everything was so much better the second time. For me it was a way to explore a new direction when my SAHM years were ending and I had been away from work for so long that I wanted a pathway back.

      I dropped out of a grad program before the SAHM years so I was used to the prof-grad student dynamic. I found that it was not much different with the second bachelors. I was testing the waters at first and keeping a low profile but after a semester or so, they knew me and it was really the same dynamic in many ways.

      1. Chilipepper*

        Oh, and I stayed in that department for the masters (all in person) and then work paid for a masters in our specific degree (totally redundant but they want it). The second one was all online and I loved it. Using social media I had more connections with other students than I did in the in person program.

      2. Theory of Eeveelution*

        Thanks for sharing your experience! Yep, I will only be taking classes in the major. I’m really looking forward to it!

    11. lemon*

      I’m also wondering about why you’re going back for a bachelor’s. I saw your other comments about switching your career to computer science. I think even though your background is in fine arts, a STEM master’s might be a better option. It’ll take you farther professionally, and you won’t have to deal with the awkwardness of being a 35 year-old undergrad.

      A lot of STEM master’s are designed for people who have no background in the subject. I’m in a similar spot–my undergrad is in liberal arts/creative writing, and I’m in a STEM master’s now. Some programs will expect you to complete some foundational coursework if you don’t have a computer science background. But, you can get around that either by taking cheaper classes at community college and then transferring the credits over. Or, you can do self-study and usually test out of the foundational courses.

    12. Julianna*

      Have you written any code? Sat down and made a short javascript game or coded up a quick script?

      Before deciding if you want to be a software engineer, I suggest going through something like learn Ruby the Hard Way and trying to figure out if you really like it.

      If you sit down and discover you really like coding and you learn better in an academic environment or think that it would make you focus on learning those skills, by all means go ahead and get the degree! But software development is honestly not something you learn primarily in a classroom, so the degree is really just to try and get you a first job. If you don’t like problem solving or enjoy writing code, it might not be worth it. If you are motivated enough to self teach, you don’t need the degree if you can prove your skills (to be clear, I am in no way that motivated and would not be able to do that, so this is said with zero judgement).

      Source: I’m a self taught software developer, without a degree in the field, though I got lucky and basically taught myself on the job.

      1. kt*

        I think this is really good advice.

        I’ll also say that when we are hiring software engineers, the degree carries relatively little weight, as so much is self-taught or learned on the job or through certifications. A degree is useful. We have some folks with only high school diplomas or GEDs. We’ve also definitely not hired folks with degrees who didn’t seem to actually know how to do anything. There is an unfortunate disconnect between undergrad computer science and jobs in software engineering, and if you return for the degree you’ll need to be aware of this and demonstrate through projects etc that you actually know how to do stuff. Set up your Github page now and start putting up crappy toy projects about things you like. I think at one point I started an app where you input beers and what you thought of their flavor profiles, and it compared you to your friends who also did so. It was a fun exercise even though I never finished it.

      2. Theory of Eeveelution*

        Yes. I’ve been making websites since I was in middle school, and I did Learn Python The Hard Way. Thanks for your concern, though.

    13. Derivative Poster*

      I got a 2nd bachelor’s in CS in my 30’s. I’m glad I didn’t go straight to a master’s: I wouldn’t have been comfortable taking grad-level CS courses without a solid foundation, although that might be a function of my personality. There certainly are tech jobs you can get without a degree, but the degree opens a lot of doors and might be necessary, depending on what exactly you want to do and your location. The age thing was no big deal, perhaps because I went to a state university in a military town so several students were getting their degrees after having served or were otherwise non-traditional. Happy to answer any more specific questions!

      1. Theory of Eeveelution*

        Thanks for sharing your experience! I have similar concerns about going straight into a master’s. I’m like you, I like to know I understand the basics before I start doing anything else.

    14. tangerineRose*

      When I was in college, the non-traditional students in class tended to do well because they were motivated. Sometimes I did notice a non-traditional student being annoyed when the professor spoke to the class like we were all kids.

    15. Lasciel*

      So I have a masters in IT and the amount of people trying to break into becoming junior developers due to school or bootcamps has gotten pretty crazy. It’s to the point where our company usually tries to hire engineers with practical experience, viable github portfolios, etc to differentiate. I think people that’s never tried programming don’t realize that learning the language is pretty easy but being able to build clean and efficient code takes experience and knowledge. Before I even started my career in IT, was play around and creating programs in visual basic while in high school and made a few personal websites for fun so it was a bit easier for me to get into the field.

      That being said, if you really think that’s what you want to do, I would definitely recommend at least trying out some coding online courses to see how you feel about it. For some people, it’ll click and for other’s it won’t at first so you have to keep at it for a bit.

      Also! I almost forgot, since you’re a creative, have you looked into UX and UI design? With fine arts, along with some tech background, you would almost be the perfect fit for it. UX and UI is basically User Experience / User Interface design and it encompasses things like visual and audio experiences of the end user for websites, software, etc. User interface is like this site, where the buttons are, the white background, where the topics, etc are. Honestly, I would recommend looking into different fields in tech if you really want to get into it instead of just getting CS degree without exactly knowing what you want.

      my2c

      1. Theory of Eeveelution*

        UX/UI is the most oversaturated field I’ve ever come across. I initially thought I wanted to do this, and took a few classes on it toward the beginning of my long unemployment, but I soon realized that no one was going to hire me on the strength of a few Udemy class projects.

        “Honestly, I would recommend looking into different fields in tech if you really want to get into it instead of just getting CS degree without exactly knowing what you want.”

        I never said I don’t know exactly what I want! I’ve been writing code since I was in middle school. Thanks for this condescending thought, though!

        1. Lasciel*

          Wow…I wasn’t trying to be condescending as you asked thoughts about going back to school and I noticed that you mentioned you were going to get a cs degree. I actually was trying to offer advice as you asked thoughts on.

          Our company has a internship program for junior programmers and UX researchers and I was going recommend some professional groups that I belong to help jump start someone’s career as it’s one of the best way to get into the field. I belong to a program and mentorship for women developers and engineers the friends in companies are always looking for talented people no matter where they are in their career. When you have connections and a mentor that can recommend you to their peers in other organizations or companies.

          I’m not sure what else say as I was honestly surprised by the response as I was truly trying to be helpful, either way, good luck with your search.

        3. fhqwhgads*

          I’m a self-taught software engineer with a completely unrelated degree. In all my jobs, of people I’ve worked with fewer than 10% had a cs degree. Most were either self-taught or went to a bootcamp. I’m hard pressed to think of a bootcamp that costs more than a 3 year degree. I know you mentioned scholarships, but I’m skeptical.
          You say you’ve been coding a long while, so I’m not sure why you think the degree would be useful. I think you’d be throwing your money away, and taking years to get there when you could probably take weeks to get something resume-worthy that would illustrate your capability to do whatever jobs you might intend to apply to in the future.

        4. Owler*

          Several of your responses seem defensive; I think you’re seeing condescension where there is only advice. Perhaps just pass over the comments where you don’t identify with the advice?

  27. Career Change Engineer*

    I’m an engineer looking to make somewhat of a career change, but I’m not sure what would fit with my experience that isn’t the same field I’m currently in.

    I currently work as a controls engineer (I program machines that go into factories). I’ve realized I’d like to transition to something with else demanding hours, among other things. The roles I’m sure I’m qualified for would be my same job at a different company or a plant engineer, neither of which I’m really interested in.

    Does anyone have any suggestions for fields/jobs to look into? Thank you!

    1. Jubilance*

      Could you go into something adjacent – Quality, process improvement, maybe an Agile Scrum master or something?

    2. Betty*

      Would you consider HVAC controls? There are a lot of possibilities to work directly for a controls company (Johnson Controls, Siemens, Automated Logic), an independent service contractor, or in-house at a larger company (definitely in higher-Ed and research facilities, not sure about others).

    3. Rachel*

      I work in a tech startup involved in industrial automation which sounds adjacent to what you do. We have applications engineers who work on applying our tech to specific customer problems. The hours are a little more than 9-5 as customer deadlines take priority but afaik they don’t feel overworked. That said I’m not sure if that’s different enough from what you do now, or an easy job opening to find.

    5. Donkey Hotey*

      No clue about other possibilities because our company REALLY needs competent controls engineers.
      Good luck!

    6. Policy Wonk*

      If your field is regulated, look into working for the regulator, or for a company or non-profit that helps companies deal with regulation.

      You may also want to consider working for an industry association.

      Not knowing what kind of credentials are needed, you could consider working for a school that trains technicians or other specialists that would work in your field.

  28. Over There!*

    How have people in liberal arts fields (media, comms) transitioned into more tech heavy fields? I’m working in the social media and public relations field, but I want to move on. I love data (Google Analytics and Tableau are great), but am not formally trained. What are some steps I can take to move closer to my goal? Class or book recs would be great!

    2. Workerbee*

      Statistics! Learn statistics to go with the data. You can start with some introductory books to see if you like it. Just start with free library and online ones, and if a book or lesson is unclear, try another one. Don’t think that you are bad at it when starting because a lot of math text are badly written, plus people’s learning styles differ.

    3. 867-5309*

      Marketing analytics is a highly sought after field. Start getting the analytics certificates from places like Google and start to network with others. There is also an Insights Professional Certification from the Insights Association. A couple of my colleagues in consumer insights have that.

      Make sure in your current work you are thinking this way: How are you measuring and communicating success? How are you contextualizing the results?

      You might have to go down a level or two but with an existing background in marketing, a couple certifications, plus real-work examples from your projects, I think you could find a gig.

    4. Malika*

      With the right certification, it is easier than you would think. When the CEO at my tech startup was hiring, he appreciated the different perspective a liberal arts background could bring, provided the additional technical skills had been sufficiently developed. The ability to think of the bigger picture, instead of getting bogged down in technical detail, was very much valued. Being able to write coherently and communicate your ideas effectively can be taken for granted when surrounded by fellow liberal arts graduates. Not so much in the tech industry.
      A friend of mine transitioned from literary publishing to data analytics by asking around which courses got taken the most seriously and crafting 20 hours of study next to her job. She is now in a Data Analytics position and thriving. Ask around and do a bit of networking. In no time, you will discover the steps you need to take.

  29. saffie_girl*

    My organization is discussing how best to return to the office (whenever that time comes), and I would love to hear your ideas!

    The office staff has been fully WFH throughout Covid, and the assumption is that we will need to transition back to office work, but no exceptions that we will be back in the office 5 days a week initially (Hooray!). Typically, within departments we have various teams, and while there is collaboration between teams, I do not see a need for all people within a department to be in at the exact same time on a regular basis, but we will need to be in the office on a regular basis.

    So what would you want? What would you want to avoid? Thanks!

    1. Ashley*

      I want all my co-workers vaccinated before I return plus be vaccinated myself with the 3 weeks post vaccine for full effect.
      I also want an honest discussion about how much I need to be in the office in person given how successful WFH the past year has been for me. So does it make sense to assign Tuesday as a day that everyone knows I will be in the office for any person kind of stuff make sense?

      1. HRBee*

        I think this is going to be a hard line to draw. You will inevitably have at least one person not get vaccinated whether for religious, medical, or just plain doesn’t want to reasons. If the line is “every coworker” is vaccinated then no one is ever going to go back to work.

        As an industry that never sent people home (food production), we’ve found diligent adherence to masking, social distancing, daily deep cleaning, and hand washing have worked wonders. We haven’t have a positive case since May 2020.

        1. Natalie*

          I don’t see how that would prevent returning to the office. If you have employees with sincerely held religious objections or bona fide medical contraindications, you approach it like any other accommodation, where you and the employee engage in an interactive process to figure out how they can continue to do their job. Other employees aren’t really entitled to the details, and since workplaces should continue to require masking and distancing for the near future, it shouldn’t really impact their coworkers much anyway.

          As far as “just doesn’t want to”, maybe this comes from working at a healthcare provider that mandates a number of vaccinations, but I don’t find that especially compelling.

        2. KatieHR*

          I am also in the food production industry and have been in office the whole time. We have temp checks at every door, masking, social distancing, daily deep cleaning, and hand washing have also helped. We are also fortunate to have an on site doctor office that has 15 min rapid testing. We’ve had a scatter of positive cases but nothing like it was back in April/May 2020. We are still waiting on the vaccine but I know we have a handful of people that don’t want to get it and how can your force someone to get it? That is going to be a hard line to have everyone be vaccinated. That being said, I think companies can implement some good measures and successfully return.

    2. ThatGirl*

      My company is having similar discussions, with the expectation that most people will continue to work from home part or most of the time. For me, I’d like the vaccine to be widely available and our local/state case rates to be extremely low and steadily so. My manager has been mentioning having one set day we’re all in the office — I actually do miss seeing coworkers casually in non-video-chat settings, and I like having a dedicated workspace/desk (we don’t currently have space for a proper home office setup here) though I also like the freedom and flexibility of working from home.

    3. Mockingjay*

      I would suggest a staggered return. Maybe half of each team to start. Definitely loop in IT. You do NOT want 100 people reconnecting to the network and printers on the same day.

      Decide what precautions are mandated/required/recommended. Will company provide masks or do employees wear their own? Cube and floor rules – X marks on the floor to maintain separation? And so on.

      My company is doing a multitier approach, something like this:
      Condition A – nearly 100% telework employees. Only handful of designated essential staff in office (mostly IT and staff for delivery receipt). Masks required, no visitors.
      Condition B – management and designated essential employees. Masks required, limited visitors who must remain masked for duration of 1 hour. Telework staff can come in for occasional meetings/use special equipment, but must clear with manager first. [Where we are today]
      Condition C – all employees return. Masks still required until company deems pandemic under control/mitigated/etc. Employees will be asked to return by teams/groups to schedule IT connections, password resets, etc.

      My company decided not to use vaccination percentage as a return metric, as each state is handling the rollout differently/better/poorly. We have offices in several states. Site managers are monitoring local case trends as part of the decision making. So Office in State B may reopen fully while Office in State A is still in Condition B. It’s more work for our executives and upper managers, but I am so grateful that they take employee protection seriously.

      Some employees are asking to permanently telework. These requests are considered individually. We work on/bill to government contracts and most require a majority of employees to be on site or readily available, so all may not be granted. (We can do a lot of work remotely, but our work involves design, install, test, and maintenance of actual equipment, so eventually we have to go back to our widgets. The programs are falling behind. I predict a busy summer.)

    4. AnonPi*

      We’re in early discussions about this since we probably won’t return to work until the end of the year or early next, and there’s talk that everyone that can work from home will have the option to do so at least some of the time. One of the things someone suggested was to work half days and I put my foot down there. I am not driving almost 2 hours back and forth everyday just to work a half day on site – schedule for a whole day on site, or a whole day at home.

    5. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      some of the things we’ve been discussing are access to communal office items like water coolers, refrigerators, shared coffee pots and supplies, and microwaves being available. We’ve had a few people going into the office all along, but all water deliveries and office supply orders have ceased; microwaves are available but we’re required to wipe everything down with sanitizing wipes when we use it and only 1 person in the break room at a time; which is fine with only 1-2 people in the office at a time, but will be difficult if 40 people come back at once. If someone in the office wants coffee/water/food they need to bring it from home in their own container. We will probably keep that up even as more people return to the office.

  30. So relieved I cried*

    Attention managers:
    DO NOT SCHEDULE INDIVIDUAL MEETINGS WITHOUT A TOPIC!
    My boss did this to us. He scheduled our entire department for 1:1 meetings in 15 minute increments, but wouldn’t say why.
    We all thought we were going to be laid off, because everyone had an appointment and no one knew why.
    But he just wanted to connect with each of us and see how we were feeling about continuing to work from home vs going back to the office.
    When I told him I thought I was losing my job, he said “Why does everyone think that! If I want to talk to my employees, I get to do that. I don’t owe them the why in advance!” No, you don’t “owe them” but you sure as hell could understand how ominous it feels.
    Why this was a secret, no one knows. But it sure has been an anxious week here…and at least my resume is polished up?

      1. D3*

        Not perfect, but too bad. I really think he’s just doubling down because he’s embarrassed. Said he didn’t know how to phrase it the short way and so he put nothing, and “the crisis was all in your imaginations”
        The real test will be if he does better moving forward.

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          I doubt your manager is open to suggestions, but the phrasing could be:

          “General check-in/how are you doing?”
          “Check-in, WFH versus the office”

          I’m internally rolling my eyes at your manager’s reaction.

        2. SentientAmoeba*

          Remind him that if everyone assumed there was a crisis, then there was a definitely problem with the delivery.

        3. Roy G. Biv*

          It is human nature to err. It is a really human trait to stubbornly double down on the error when it is pointed out.

    2. many bells down*

      Oh God this is such a peeve of my husband’s. He frequently gets “important mandatory all company meeting Monday 9am” emails with NO other info. And they’ve had layoffs not that long ago! Of course he panics! And then this super important meeting ends up being “meet the new VP of marketing” which could have totally been in the damn email.

    3. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

      “I don’t owe them the why in advance!”. I’m SUPER curious to know how long he will last in his position because that type of thing erodes trust so fast. My boss in college did this type of thing often, sent us our work schedules for the week an hour before a shift, wouldn’t explain why people were suddenly dropped from shifts with no explanation. His boss came by and asked us who he would see working tomorrow, and no one could answer. “How can you have all forgotten your schedule?!”. “Sir, we won’t have our schedule until an hour before opening tomorrow”. “Have you guys spoken to him about the problem that causes for you?”. “Yes sir, he says he doesn’t owe us an explanation”. Dude was out by the end of the month.

    4. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      Oh my gosh, I would think the same thing!! I hope he realized he called a lot of unnecessary distress for all of you!

    5. ThatGirl*

      Yeah that’s pretty terrible. I’ve had two mysterious meetings scheduled in my career that both turned out to be layoffs, so it’s very understandable that you would jump to that.

    6. Persephone Mongoose*

      This makes me so angry. I have pretty bad anxiety and it goes THROUGH THE ROOF when I get a 1:1 meeting put on my calendar with zero context. There is no reason he couldn’t just call the calendar event “[Name] 1:1 Check-In” and save everyone a lot of grief. Or even just shoot an email to people letting them know what he was doing.

      Your boss is an ass.

    7. Frankie Bergstein*

      I totally empathize. Even the most confident among us feel a rush of anxiety when someone says, “hey – call me” or “here’s an invite to meeting with someone senior” with no topic or explanation. I wish your manager got that!

      1. Cj*

        Just today the big boss buzzed me right and noon, and in a quite angry voice asked me to come to his office. I was all “Oh, my God, what did I do?”. Turns out he was frustrated with what he was working on and wanted my help. At least I found that out in 30 seconds and didn’t have to worry about waiting for a meeting.

    8. Tris Prior*

      Oh… that is so not cool.
      My company has frequent layoffs and eventually my team trained our boss to say “this is not a bad-news meeting, HR is not involved” in the meeting invite. So even if she didn’t want to tell us what it was about, we at least knew we weren’t getting canned. She was surprised that we worried about this, but we were like, OK, look at how many layoffs we’ve had, we think this is a totally reasonable fear!

      After she heard it from enough of us, it stopped being a problem. I feel like it costs a manager nothing to at least say a bare minimum of info like that.

    9. Can't Sit Still*

      My manager does this with compensation reviews. This year, I went ahead and scheduled them that way. She’s scared too many people with them in the past. She’s otherwise a great manager, this is just a huge blind spot for her.

    10. Double A*

      Not that this is the case here, but sometimes this can be so tricky if you have good/neutral information you need to deliver in person, so putting a topic in the meeting invite would defeat the purpose of an in-person meeting.

      When I asked to set up a quick chat with my supervisor, I needed to tell her I’m pregnant. But I wanted to do that in person so… how to keep the ask vague but also let her know I’m not quitting? And funnily enough when I told her, she was like, “Oh, I was so worried you were going to tell me you were quitting or something!” I thought it’s funny that bosses have the same reaction about a vague meeting request, to immediately assume the worst.

      1. kt*

        What I did for a similar meeting was call it “summer scheduling” or “summer planning” or something like that — sort of mysterious, but also accurate for a summer mat leave, and hopefully anxiety-reducing.

    11. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Ugh my leadership used to do this too. My VP seemed to love scheduling department wide 20 minute meetings with 24 hours notice – just enough time to really stoke the rumor mill.

    13. Eleanor Knope*

      That’s terrible, especially that he doubled down! My SVP once scheduled a meeting called “discussion” with my entire team at the last minute. We were all panicking. It ended up being about how HR had reminded managers about our chairs’ ergonomic features, and her demonstrating them for us and reminding us we could get an ergonomics assessment done if we wanted. Fine meeting, but not worth the stress beforehand!

    14. Mockingjay*

      My project lead is like this. Schedules meetings all the time without an agenda/heads up. I’ve learned it’s not personal or bad news. He often has so much going on (and he’s terribly disorganized and resistant to fixing that – ugh) that he simply schedules meetings in the moment, then moves immediately onto the next thing. Day of the meeting:

      “So, Mockingjay, what did you want to talk about?”
      “You scheduled this meeting.”
      *Looks blank, scratches head for a moment. “Oh yeah, about the new design. Where are we on the test report?”

    15. Not So NewReader*

      Eh, all of you could ask for a one-on-one with him and not tell him the topic. Let him think you all are quitting.

      Then you could say, “It’s not important to announce the topic.”

    16. Sleepy*

      Omg. HR once scheduled a meeting with my partner at 4:30pm on a Friday with no agenda. He was terrified he was being fired and also baffled because he had just received a workplace excellence award. Turned out HR was missing his signature on something. But wtf.

    17. meyer lemon*

      My boss once sent a really ominous-looking meeting invitation which turned out to be so he could distribute the contents of a gift basket. What an emotional rollercoaster.

    18. Middle Manager*

      I think “owe” is the wrong take on it. Is it required, I guess not. But if you don’t want to be a jerk and you are knowingly causing stress to your employees, why not just say in advance you’re doing a general check in, nothing to be concerned about. I get that things sometimes come up last minute and you might not have a chance to offer that. But if you’ve taken the time to schedule a bunch of 15 minute appointments, is it really that hard to “cut and paste” that into the meeting invites?

  31. Casey*

    I’m doing a brief virtual informational interview with an alum from my school who’s currently working at a super cool company in my field. I did reach out because her employer is hiring, but I promise I know the difference between a job interview and an informational interview!
    I’m looking to get her insight on this specific company — they’re doing work that’s relatively uncommon and matches with my moral compass and technical skills.
    I’ve got a few questions I know I want to ask her, like “how did you know this company was a good fit for you?” and “what kind of projects do you work on day-to-day, are they all the big flashy ones on the website?”
    What are some other questions I can ask to gauge whether this company is a good fit for me? Also, it’d be okay if I asked her if she knew of other companies doing similar work, right?

    1. EMP*

      I once got asked “what’s your least favorite part of your job” and I thought that was really cogent for an informational interview.
      Is there non-work stuff that’s important to you? Work-life balance is a big deal for me, for example. If you’re still in school and figuring out exactly what track you want to take in this industry you might ask about that (e.g. you’re starting as an individual contributor but think in 10 years you’d like to move to management, you could ask her if she sees that much or what a typical career path looks like).
      I definitely think it’s OK (good, even!) to ask about other companies.

    2. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

      I might leave out the question about other companies doing similar work. You could also ask what percentage of her day she spends actually working on projects vs. in meetings, doing mundane tasks/ what does a typical day look like for you vs. “an exciting day”.
      You can also ask:
      Are there opportunities for professional development within the company?
      How closely do you work with other departments/members of your department. Or, what departments/other people do you rely on the most?
      Just a few!

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      “Could you share some stories of people who you’ve seen thrive at this company? Who have you seen struggle here?”

    4. WandaVision*

      Since it’s an informational interview, I think you should not focus too much on the fact that their company is hiring. If you get an offer from their company, that is a good time to consider if it’s a good fit for you. If you leave the meeting knowing for sure that you would love to work at this company but then never get an interview, that’s a bit of a wasted opportunity, you know? Consider what information you would like from this person if you knew for sure that you were not going to get a job at their company: stuff like their path into the industry, how they have seen others get a foothold, where they read about industry news online, etc. I think the question about competitors is good because they will likely know and that can help direct your job search. Best of luck!

  32. AnonToday*

    Fellow data analysts – I have a final interview coming up for a Senior Data Analyst role and it will have a virtual whiteboarding component. I’m guessing probably some statistical analysis & SQL coding. Any suggestions on websites or resources to use to help me prep for the interview? For context I’ve worked as a data analyst for the past 5 years, I regularly code in SQL but I am a “write something & test it” type coder, I don’t spit code off the top of my head. I am just now learning Python & R which the hiring manager is aware of & I don’t think I’ll get any questions about those. In my current role I don’t do a ton of statistical analysis, it’s mostly regressions.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Just tell them your working style up front – “write something and test it” is a perfectly valid way to do code.

  33. Seeking Second Childhood*

    Anyone else have issues & solutions for windows & office setup? Lower-case windows, lower case office — as in arranging monitors to reduce sunglare. And deciding whether it’s worth it to rearrange an otherwise pleasant & functional setup.

    1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

      Can you install curtains at all? We just used command strips and installed really lightweight rods and cotton curtains that reduced glare but didn’t kill the natural light too badly.

    2. Bob Howard*

      Please pay attention to the acoustics. Curtains, carpets or anything soft will tend to absorb sound & prevent echos, making a quieter and less stressful office. Is it possible to set rules about radios, speakerphones, zoom/teams calls etc? Quier aircon, compuer fans etc are all worthwhile.

      Please make sure your carpets are anti-static so that you do not get zapped when you reach for the stair-rail.

      Have 1 or 2 dummy thermostats to appear to 0control the temperature, e.g one on each side of the room. Make sure the location of the real thermostat is well hidden.

      But if everyone is generally happy with the configuration, and the only problem is sun-glare on monitors, as others have posted, curtains, blinds or window-film are good options.

        1. Bob Howard*

          Shame. Can you tell me which law & in which country/state? It will prevent me making a fool of myself in public again!

          1. Robin Ellacott*

            I think Teekanne was using the D&D alignment thing (lawful good; lawful neutral; lawful evil; unlawful good etc.) not suggesting they were actually against the real law.

            And it’s a GREAT idea. The illusion of control is often enough to make people happy!

          2. The teapots are on fire*

            I think this is roleplaying game terminology, in which characters can be lawful, unlawful, or chaotic, and good, neutral, or evil…if I remember correctly. I’m sure the real gamers will be along soon to correct me.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      I like to have my desk perpendicular to the wall with the window. That way, I don’t have my monitor(s) facing the window, but I can still see out of it.

    4. Juneybug*

      Few suggestions –
      1. Anti-glare screen covers
      2. Window film to help reduce the glare but still allow light in
      3. Desk lamp to balance out the lighting
      4. Turn off one or more overhead lights
      5. Cubic walls extenders/privacy panels
      Hope this helps!

  34. AnonBurnOut*

    How are you all dealing with burn out these days? I barely have the energy to work so adding in a job search seems challenging. The sad thing is, I like my job, but we’ve been understaffed for about a year now and there’s no sign of improvement. (I should also add, my job requires me to talk to people all day, often on camera, so some of the productivity tips I’ve seen don’t apply when I’m in back to back meetings). I saw a therapist but all she did was tell me to go outside during the pandemic, so I stopped seeing her.

    1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

      Yeah that therapist wasn’t for you. I wouldn’t give up on therapy though, and a lot of us are in the same boat. Have you looked into switching into a different role in the same company? Or, what is it about your job that you like vs. the requirements that are burning you out? Maybe you could take what you like and find it elsewhere or in a different role at your present firm?

      1. AnonBurnOut*

        Thank you. I’m seeing a different therapist soon. And I have applied to a few internal roles, was interviewed for 1 but wasn’t selected. I’ll keep thinking about the pros/cons and figure out if I want to spend any energy on a new search. Thanks for your reply!

    2. Still Me*

      My boss was just fired, two weeks ago another person on our team was fired and my direct report just resigned. I have extended the rubber band of stress and burnout as far as it will go. Here is what I am trying to do:

      – I walk20-30 minutes everyday, while it is still daylight outside
      – I try to do a couple meetings each day (usually internal) on my mobile so I can pace and talk (moving around a bit helps)
      – I do not work past 7:00 PM
      – I put my mobile phone down from 6:00-7:00 PM each night
      – Stopped drinking alcohol and reduced my caffeine – anything that can affect my mood
      – I keep wanting to put my mobile phone down for the night at 10:00 PM but have so far been fully unsuccessful and instead read the AITA thread on Reddit until 12:30 AM – not helpful

      (Posting this reply under a different Name.)

      1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

        Dang! I am going to adopt some of those, this is great stuff! I wish I had anything further to offer, it sounds like you’re handling it better than most of us could.

      2. Smitten By Juneau*

        It sounds like you’ve got a good plan and are making decent strides in implementing it! Keep up the good work.

        Please remember to be kind to yourself if you aren’t able to change everything all at once (e.g. reading Reddit late.) You need to change at a pace that works for you in order for things to stick. Otherwise you are likely to just rubber-band back to where you were when you started.

      3. AnonBurnOut*

        Thanks for sharing your schedule! I do try to get outside, too, it just doesn’t solve the workload, you know? I will work on setting boundaries that work for me. Thanks for your reply!

  35. HopingForBetter*

    I’m going to be second-round interviewing soon for a new position and I’m looking for advice about questions to ask the committee. I’m interviewing for non-management professional positions in higher ed.

    One of the biggest reasons I am leaving my current position is because my manager is not effectively advocating for our department to administration and therefore our department is constantly getting its budget cut, positions eliminated, etc. and as a result we are understaffed and it feels like we’re always just struggling to keep our heads above water. I’m getting burnt out.

    Any ideas about questions I can ask that will give me an idea of how well the management at these new positions is able to advocate for their department beyond simply asking, “what’s your relationship like with university administration?”

    1. irene adler*

      This is probably out of line, but wouldn’t this make for a good behavioral question to ask the hiring manager?

      Something along the lines of: “Tell me about a time when management reduced your department budget.”
      Might add: “How did you negotiate things to keep your staff intact?”

      1. HopingForBetter*

        I agree it’s a scenario that could really be applied to a behavioral question! The jury’s still out on whether I have the chutzpah to turn the tables that way!

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Sometimes I find naming the exact issue and asking what their experience with that has been is effective. (“One of the reasons I am looking for a new role is XYZ. What has your experience with that been?”)

      It can feel like a bold way to phrase it, and asking it can really depend on how strong of a candidate you feel you are and how senior the role is, but it may help avoid you getting answers that don’t quite answer your “real” question if you ask something more vague.

      1. HopingForBetter*

        I’m going to try this out. I welcome any feedback! :)

        “Many campuses nationwide are experiencing shortfalls and cuts due to a variety of challenges currently facing higher ed. In my career, I’ve noted how important it is for [department] management to have a strong relationship with university administration to ensure [department’s] needs are met and [department] can continue meeting the needs of the faculty and students it serves.

        With that in mind, who do you feel is [department’s] biggest champion on campus? What do you think is your biggest challenge when representing [department] to university administration? What do you think has been [department’s] greatest recent success when pitching a new initiative to administration?”

        Is this on the right track?

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          I think these sound good — they are certainly not vague, and should hopefully help you glean some key info! Good luck!!

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Oof, this is a tough one. The hard truth is that higher ed budgets are being slashed all over the place, and the budget process may not be swayed by a department manager advocating for their team. Higher ed staff are overwhelmed and overburdened everywhere. I’m in higher ed too, and even though our university is in a relatively strong position (we’ve been able to avoid layoffs and furloughs, for example) and unusually consensus-driven, there’s basically a hiring freeze, salary freeze, benefit cuts, and extra work – the performance expectations have never been higher and everyone’s on edge. Our budgeting process takes a year because every single department manager is consulted and it still resulted in an X% reduction across the board.

      I wonder whether it makes sense to consider a career change outside of higher ed in this current job search; virtually any institution you join would also be facing budget cuts, and they might see your question about budget cuts as a red flag that you wouldn’t be happy there. On the other hand, if the budget cuts are the only thing driving you to look at a new job maybe it helps to know it’s not just your current org going through it? I obviously don’t know your situation and I apologize if I seem harsh, I just see in my own org how the staff who make public complaints in our budget town hall meetings look increasingly out of touch with the reality of the situation.

      1. HopingForBetter*

        I hear what you’re saying and I appreciate your points! I do strongly feel like the difficulties I’m currently experiencing are due in large part to my manager’s inability to represent our department (although I also recognize that budget stressors are a universal fact in higher ed right now).

        For many reasons, I just don’t think my director is respected by her own manager in administration. The most glaring example is that we are currently undergoing a reorganization, and my director is essentially being demoted. Someone who was once parallel to her is now becoming her manager. In any other university I have worked at or seen, my director’s position is the executive director of the unit, but instead she will be reporting to the ED. Another example is that our building was renovated about 3 years ago, and we lost a significant amount of square footage and office space to the new ED’s department. So while I’ve worded it as a budget/staffing issue in my original question, the reality is it’s an issue with every resource we compete for on campus. It’s not just that we’re not getting money, it’s that we’re losing out to other departments. FWIW, I made the decision to leave based on these issues before COVID and its associated budget pressures and am only just now able to do a job search and leave.

        1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          Oh wow, that is a bit different! I think your questions above are great and will certainly help you suss out the atmosphere (and however they answer will give you insight). I’d also suggest taking a close look at how visible the department is on the university website, maps, strategic plan, etc. I would bet a department that’s linked right on the homepage is better-resourced than one that takes 10 clicks to find their site.

          If the university has a current strategic plan, I’d also suggest asking in your interview how the department fits into that plan and what resources have been/will be made available to meet those goals.

          1. HopingForBetter*

            Those are great ideas, thanks so much for your input! It’s good to have some perspective from someone else in the higher ed world.

  36. Very Sus Circumstances*

    I’m in the process of leaving my current company. I gave notice to my boss last week and he has been excessively passive-aggressive and immature about things – giving me the cold shoulder, snapping at me, etc – which is a theme, and a big part of the reason I am leaving in the first place.

    I haven’t heard about any interviews or job postings to fill my position, and my boss and colleague have been taking on a majority of my tasks since I gave notice. Right now this is a slow season so that is reasonable, but things will kick up soon and while I know it is not my place to care, I know that they will have issues in training because of the aforementioned level of professionalism this man exudes.

    I asked the person who is the go-between with my facility and HR if there was something I should do to give notice to that end, since I had assumed that my boss would follow the normal chain of command and pass that along as is done for everyone else, and they had no idea I had even given him my notice. I have a sinking feeling that I will be let go before my notice is over since it was never put through in the proper way – is there anything I should be doing for my own purposes in the meantime? How do I cover myself in the event that I am terminated instead of being able to finish my notice period?

    1. Reba*

      I would say keep talking with HR and don’t count on your boss to handle anything. I’m not sure what your concerns are that you need to cover. Any chance you could try to negotiate severance or continuation of certain benefits (again via HR) if you are pushed out, since you can say you attempted to give the full amount of notice and your boss mishandled?

      I’m assuming your notice period is longer than the US two weeks, since you’re asking. But regardless, the notice period is not for hiring your replacement. And this company’s future training issues are, happily, not your problem! Congrats on leaving!

    2. LuckySophia*

      I’m not an expert, but it seems like the reasonable thing to do is:
      — Get an appointment to meet with HR as soon as possible (either by contacting them directly, or via the go-between person).
      — Give the HR person a copy of the resignation letter you gave your boss. Confirm to HR “I met with boss on (date) at (time) to inform him I would be resigning and give my (two weeks’ or whatever time period applies) notice. ”
      — Ask HR what procedures you need to follow/what paperwork needs to be done, as part of your exit process.
      For example, if you have to formally turn in a badge, or keys, or equipment, to whom do you turn it in, to Boss? The Facilities go-between? to HR? Is there a form someone has to sign, and do you get a copy, to confirm you’ve fulfilled that requirement? Ask HR about any benefits: do they pay you for unused vacation time? When does your company-paid medical coverage (if you have any) end? What are your options, if any, for continuing that coverage on your own? If you expect to use this company as a reference, ask HR what is their policy– do they give references or at least confirm titles/dates of employment? Maybe ask HR if future employers can contact HR rather than Boss, since Boss has been hostile since you announced your resignation.

    4. MrsPeaches*

      Did you give a written resignation to your boss? If so, forward that to HR. If not, write one up ASAP with language like “Per our conversation on February 20…” and send it to the boss and copy HR. That way at least HR will have it in their file as a resignation for when future employers conduct verifications.

  37. Help with Clear Gender Bias!*

    I am on the board for an organization that recently went through a search for a new executive director. At one point in the process, we had several candidates meet with senior staff to get staff feedback on their potential new boss. I was shocked at the gender bias that staff showed in their feedback. All of the male candidates were strong and passionate and had clear, concrete plans. All of the female candidates were flaky, generic, and so unqualified they shouldn’t even have advanced that far into the process. To be clear, several board members sat in on these staff meetings and these candidates were no different with the staff than they had been with the board in the process so far. The female and male candidates were all equally qualified. In fact, several of the female candidates were actually significantly more qualified than the male candidates.
    I am heartbroken. This is an organization that espouses values of equality and inclusion and yet it is very clear that there is a toxic masculinity among the organization’s senior leadership. The board has discussed how to elevate a female executive director if one is installed, but we also need ways to address this generally, no matter who the ED ends up being.Does anyone have any suggestions?

    1. Long torso*

      YUCK! You need a new senior leadership team. Sadly I don’t think there’s any training that will cause them to pull their heads out of their asses. Whatever the gender of the new ED is, they need to be given a heads-up about this issue and the full support of the board to manage these misogynists out of the organization.

      I was in a similar situation recently at a nonprofit where the ED was female and the board mostly male. The ED was treated as a secretary and her experience (20+ years, not her first ED job) was ignored in favor of uninformed suggestions from male board members who had no experience in the sector. It was highly dysfunctional and upsetting to be a staff member there.

      1. Help with Clear Gender Bias!*

        This organization is a startup and most of the senior leadership team is fairly young. Do you think there’s a chance they could be educated about this issue to see their own bias and work to create a better environment? Is it possible this is just youthful, professionally immature ignorance?
        I fear a new ED will mean serious turnover in the coming months, primarily from male senior leadership. And, considering what I’ve seen, I’m ok with that. But I feel like it would be a disservice to just let that happen without calling out this situation and addressing it head on somehow.

        1. Long torso*

          I mean, yeah, I guess it couldn’t hurt to do some sort of training around implicit bias but I wouldn’t count on it doing much. The nonprofit board I mentioned above was older on average and went through a DEI retreat–I didn’t notice any change, and in fact many of the board members complained that it was a waste of time & money.

          I am a woman in my mid-30s and a few years ago I managed two youngish men (I was older than one and younger than the other). I had significantly more experience in the field than either of them–like, more than double the years. They wouldn’t listen to a word I said. I recall one situation where I called them out and it did not go well. We had a standing monthly meeting with members of our dept and board. The meeting took place after work hours and we served dinner. The “boys” always found a reason to leave early, which meant that the cleanup was left to their female colleagues. After this happened three times in a row I told them that on nights when we had the meeting, they needed to be available and stay through cleanup, and pointed out the gendered issue that was happening. Both of them got immediately very defensive. One of them claimed “I NEVER leave early and I ALWAYS stay to help with cleanup” even though he had left early and didn’t help with cleanup just the night before! I realize this may seem relatively minor in the grand scheme of things, but I promise that this similar issues were happening on a weekly, if not daily basis.

    2. tangerineRose*

      Are you in a position to talk to some of the senior staff and ask, for example “I was surprised you spoke of Susan as “flaky, generic, and unqualified” since her qualifications are …

      Might maybe get them to at least think about it.

      1. Help with Clear Gender Bias!*

        Yes, this is one of the things the board discussed as a way to address conversations about the female candidates.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I am not clear here- is all the senior staff male? If no, what did the women say about other women?

      What if senior staff was given a written set of guidelines to evaluate a potential ED or whatever while interviewing?

      I think in the future, that senior staff should be told they cannot use vague words such as flaky, generic or unqualified. They must give hard examples from what is said in the interview to substantiate their statement.

      1. Help with Clear Gender Bias!*

        Senior staff is about 50% male, but the male senior staff were disrespectfully harsh on all of the female candidates. It then seemed like a “group think” mentality took over and the female senior staff members would say things like “Oh yes. That’s a good point. I agree.” The male senior staff members were definitely leading and directing the harshness.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Oh this is 27 layers of ICK.

          If they would not say it to a man then they should not be saying it to a woman.

          Just my idea, but I think this would be a great question for Alison to answer with her specific steps that she usually outlines so well. Have you emailed Alison?

  38. Sanders*

    How do I fix my brain and re-gain my productivity? I used to be so on top of my sh*t. But now I feel like the pandemic, having children, and my damn smartphone have ruined my ability to focus and stay motivated at work. I only do the urgent, low-hanging fruit and completely neglect the important stuff until I’m so behind that I’m practically in tears. How can I inch my way back to being a focused, productive individual at work?

    1. Reba*

      I don’t have solutions but just solidarity. I have NO memory/retention these days and only work through longer periods due to the pomodoro extension.

      1. many bells down*

        Same. My concentration is shot to hell, and anything that doesn’t have a firm and imminent deadline can’t hold my attention for shit.
        Be kind to yourself. No one should have to deal with all this.

    2. Coenobita*

      Oof, I’m 100% there with you. I just had a whole conversation with my therapist about how I feel like I have pandemic-onset ADHD (a year ago, I had none of the signs/symptoms; now I have so many). And I feel like I don’t have the bandwidth to do the hard/important things, so instead I procrastinate and worry about them instead of doing them – or instead of doing anything, really, so I’m not even doing the low-hanging fruit.

      I have been having marginal success with this technique (recommended by my boss, actually): just pick one thing, and do it. It doesn’t matter what it is. Just pick one thing, and do it. Every time your mind wanders or you click away to something else, say to yourself, kindly and gently, “I am doing this thing” and go back to it. It seems so simple but it is HARD, almost physically hard. It’s like I’m using a muscle that I haven’t in a long time.

      I’m trying not to beat myself up too badly about my lack of productivity (because: everything) but still get more things done or at least feel like I’m being productive. I’ll be coming back to this thread to see what others recommend!

      1. Shirley Keeldar*

        I have a friend who, when we used to be co-workers, would call me up and say, “Please tell me to just pick one thing off my list and do it.” And I would tell her exactly that, and she would do it. Somehow, it seemed to help.

    3. Web Crawler*

      To focus, I find that I need to take more breaks. Real breaks where I get up, separate myself from my laptop, and check in with my body. Checking askamanager while telling myself “this is basically work” doesn’t count as a real break for me.

    4. Rara Avis*

      I’ve been struggling with that too. Sometimes I can get going if I tackle an important job with the idea, “I’ll just do 15 minutes on it.” Once I get going, I often am able to get on a roll. Or break the big job into little parts and aim to knock off one or two parts.

      1. Sanders*

        It’s so true – just getting started is the hardest part. Once I’m in the middle of something I’m usually happy to keep going, but that first 10 minutes is such a huge hill for me these days. I’m a pro at avoiding the important things. The only way I can get something important done is by avoiding something else MORE important. Ha.

    5. Emily*

      Maybe looking up productivity resources for people with ADHD could be helpful? There’s lots of stuff out there, but if you’d like a starting place, I’d suggest the “How to ADHD” Youtube channel.

    6. Double A*

      This is so weird, I don’t remember posting this yet here’s my life on the internet….

      Ugh, this is so hard. Part of what’s hard is I kind of fundamentally don’t WANT to fix my issues. I know leaving my phone upstairs means I won’t look at it. But… I want to. So I do.

      I think a huge part of it is that I’m not working towards anything. I’m at a steady point in my career and I don’t WANT to be ambitious right now because we’re building our family right now and that’s where my energy is really going. Since I’ve always been quite goal-oriented, adjusting to a “maintain course” mentality about my job was already a bit of a challenge before the pandemic, but now we’re living in this undifferentiated fog in our personal lives as well.

      Here are some ideas that I’m working on:
      -Leaving my phone in another room. Especially after work so I can actually be present with my family.
      -On weekends, planning SOMETHING. A place to go. A project to do. It’s not going to make our lives feel magically purposeful, but gives some structure and just, like, waymarkers in the fog.
      -I’ve been tempted to experiment with a shortened day. I think I could get all my work done in 6 hours, but I feel like I “should” sit here for 8… so I often waste like 4 of them then rush to fill the other 4.

      1. Sanders*

        You are definitely my twin, Double A. :-) I used to be an ambitious, career-oriented person, but ever since having my 2 little kids I have just been coasting at my job, in a way that probably seems adequate to my coworkers but feels shameful to me.

        I like the shortened workday concept. If I were able to focus better, I could certainly accomplish most of what I need to do in 6 hours/day. But instead, I sit at my desk in a fog of distraction, scattered meetings, and email management, and somehow 8 hours slip by.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I tend to be this way at home. One thing I have found very helpful is to write a list of goals for the next day before bed time. I don’t beat myself up if I don’t do them all- I just carry the unfinished over to the list for the following day.

      At work, I make a list of things that need to be done and I also have a stack to process. What is getting me is that doing one task can trigger remembering that I need to do 5 more tasks at some point. How many weeks have I let those slide?

      I am trying to make myself be aware of the stuff that is sliding and do a few each day. Most of them are 5 minutes except for the ones that take me hours. (sigh) Eat an elephant one bite at a time. Talk nicer to yourself- when you get 1 or 2 things done should have been done a while ago- congratulate yourself, as opposed to beating yourself with the list of what yet needs to be done.

      One thing that has helped me is to think about going to our new normal- whatever that is. It encourages me to pick up things that have been dropped and move them along. The key is to think about going towards something.

      Rely on lists and notes more often.
      Try to make more of an effort to notice things that are not necessary and are sucking up your time and brain space. Ditch those things or streamline them in some way. In a silly example, I have friends who won’t sign up for automatic oil delivery. The amount of time they spend talking about forgetting to order oil is amazing. In some instances it has lead to problems with empty oil tanks- now that is pretty stressful. In both cases, it has taken me years of saying, “This stress and extra energy can be avoided if you set up for auto-delivery.” Not everything can be an A-1 priority. This is one example, but look at things around you with fresh eyes, what can you off-load in some manner?

      1. Lizzie*

        Get a physical check up and some blood tests done if you can. An under active thyroid, low iron levels, etc etc can all impact on your stamina and focus. We often look for a psychological fix first, when the physical body we live in is the part that needs attention!

  39. Coenobita*

    Anyone have any fun video chat fails recently?

    The place I work has a very cameras-on culture; nothing mandatory, but we did a lot of video calls even pre-covid and it’s common for the majority of people in meetings to have their cameras on. Folks’ kids/pets/roommates/partners pop up on screen from time to time and it’s fine.

    So in this meeting, a senior manager’s cat strolls onto his desk. Aww! Kitty! How cute! Way to make our meeting more fun! Except then Kitty turns to face Manager to be better positioned for pets. Kitty’s rear end is now perfectly lined up with Manager’s laptop camera. And instead of Manager’s face, it’s Kitty’s butthole front & center in the little zoom window. Manager is, apparently, oblivious to this and continues petting Kitty. For a LONG time.

    1. Donkey Hotey*

      I’m stuck between making the obvious “My boss is an @sshole” joke and the more recent meme of “I am not a cat’s butt, your honor.”

    2. Helvetica*

      My co-worker’s parrot kept screaming in the background of her call. It was quite funny and we couldn’t see it. She was very apologetic about not being able to move and we all had a good laugh.

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      We have had the occasional kid or pet making an appearance on a staff meeting call, but yesterday my boss apparently had enough with one particular cat and kept telling it’s owner that he was going to have to break out the Benadryl if she didn’t get it off the screen. It was a “joke” but, like, not really.

    4. Might Be Spam*

      I’m not used to leading meetings because I never had to do it pre-covid. Halfway through leading a meeting, my software glitched and turned my image sideways. I couldn’t get it back to vertical. So I announced that we’ll just have to live with it. We spent a few minutes sharing video chat woes and finished the meeting with my image sideways. Afterwards, the only way to fix it was to uninstall and reinstall the software. I’ve had so many computer issues of one kind or another during meetings that it seldom bothers me any more.

      Another time we thought we were being Zoom-bombed and my co-host kept kicking out an unidentified participant. It turned out to be someone signing in from a guest account. After they texted me about having trouble signing in, we let them in. We did come clean about kicking them out. Fortunately they have a good sense of humor.

  40. Hope Springs Eternal*

    I am a nonprofit Executive Director who started approximately 18 months ago. In that time, I have been working on instituting HR policies, a culture of accountability, program management systems, and diversifying fundraising, communication, and marketing channels while still managing an essential services organization that has remained open during Covid. The organization had a teapot sales director (the title anyway) at my time of hire and we have had a bumpy 12 months, with resistance to all of the above.

    Earlier this week, the director inadvertently sent a text message about me to me. I offered to delete the message when she came into my office to “own the message she sent” as I had not yet read it. She declined the offer to delete and instead, sat down for forty minutes to tell me I was unkind, toxic, had unobtainable standards, impossible to please, and more. She (finally) admitted that she does not know the foundational skills for teapot sales, and while this has been known by me and my Board for some time, Covid has taken almost all the focus.

    Against all my judgment, I am willing to offer her a second chance but not in the teapot sales realm (she has other responsibilities that need more time and focus). Will this just backfire on me? Or do I take into account that she has never had professional mentors, never worked in a culture of accountability or even metrics? My Board chair is comfortable with either decision. I just wonder if I am being too soft with a bit of distance between the events and today. I do have a meeting scheduled with her first thing Monday and I’ve written up a new job description but should I listen to my gut?

      1. Hope Springs Eternal*

        That’s fair! My perspective is, yes I do have high standards and I do to be presented with mostly fully-formed ideas. One of the things that came up with “I destroy her ideas” and when I asked for examples, it was about when we discussed was her idea to launch an specific ecommerce platform (that is not in our current strategic plan that is accessible by all staff). In that discussion, I told her I was willing to consider it and then asked some quick questions about payment processor, inventory management, and who among the staff would build and manage the platform and receiving no answers, I asked her to consider those types of questions before making the proposal. Other examples she gave are that I don’t communicate with her and when I asked if she considered the project management platform a form of communication (which I use daily), she said no, she wants 1:1 meetings and I don’t respect her need for that. She also said she doesn’t like the project management platform because the other members of the teapot sales team can see the conversation / feedback / pace of work.

        I am willing to bend on issues of communication to a degree but I don’t have the time for 1:1 meetings multiple times per week. I also don’t mind indulging idea generation and “throw things against a wall and see what sticks” when problem-solving or growing programs but when being presented with an idea that is no where in the strategic planning or current workflow, I do like to see some thought put into how it could work.

        I could be very much in the wrong here. Please be honest!

        1. Twisted Lion*

          I think you should listen to your gut here. Ive worked in the non-profit world and saw someone push back like this in a development director position because they didn’t have the experience. She created an awful situation for her team and they were constantly trying to figure out what was supposed to be done. She kept claiming it was the system we used and other things and when given goals she would push back constantly saying she was doing the best she could and that she did x, y, z at a previous org. She also didnt have the skills and instead of saying “Hey I think I need some help with this” she deflected and eventually lied.

          I think if someone is uncomfortable by accountability it should be a red flag and her unloading on you in an inappropriate manner was the other.

        2. Don't personality type me*

          I suspect, after reading this and other comments, she’s a bad fit, for the role. The organization. maybe both.

        3. The New Wanderer*

          It really sounds like she tried to spin everything you did and are in the worst possible light, before even admitting that it’s actually her bad fit in her current role that is the problem in this situation.

          You said ‘against your better judgment’ – if your best judgment is to cut her loose, I think that’s the best approach. Stuff isn’t going to get magically better if she’s in a better-for-her role, she’s still inclined to see the worst in you. And then text about it rather than talk to you like a professional about how to improve your relationship (which also sounds like she just wants you to do everything she says without question or accountability). Yes, she may be unhappy in her current role, but this is not someone who will be successful in another role under you.

        4. Just a Minion*

          I don’t think it would be a good idea to offer her a 2nd chance. She sounds pretty toxic. If you replace this person it would be beneficial to have a recurring 1:1. While I do not think you should have multiple 1:1 meetings a week, once every other week or once a month for 30 min may be beneficial to you and your reports.

        5. Binky*

          She sounds awful, why would you want to keep her? If she were amazing at her work I could imagine trying to work with her on the above, but she apparently has no substantive expertise.

          There are lots of qualified unemployed people right now who would not be nightmares, why not give one of them a shot?

    2. Web Crawler*

      I wouldn’t offer a second chance to somebody who told me for 40 minutes that I’m unkind, toxic, and impossible to please. If she says that to you, I can’t imagine how she talks to and about her coworkers.

    3. pancakes*

      I’m not clear on why this person would want to continue to work with you if that’s how they feel. If, at the end of that conversation, they’d tried to redirect it a bit and said something along the lines of, “teapot sales doesn’t suit me at all and I think that’s why we’re clashing, but I think I could use my skills in [other position],” that would make sense, but it doesn’t sound like that happened.

      I’m not sure exactly what you mean by “culture of accountability,” either, but it seems like impromptu unloading on one’s boss for 40 minutes would be at odds with it!

      1. Hope Springs Eternal*

        Again, fair question! I mean meeting deadlines, producing work that does not require significant multiple revisions (for example, submitting incomplete data), staying on top of email, requesting time off and not just announcing it, and similar.

        I guess part of me is just reacting to being called unkind and toxic, when I thought during the unloading “I’m sitting here letting you unload on me and how exactly is that unkind and toxic” but also “clearly, no one has ever taught you how to constructively discuss disagreements in the workplace”. I am willing to give her the other responsibilities as she can handle them but I worry about the general demeanor and tenor of future interactions.

        As for why to continue with the organization, we do niche work and the mission is of personal significance to her.

        1. pancakes*

          If you are going to keep her, it would probably be for the best to have some sort of structured coaching or mentoring for her, rather than let her go on with this sort of thing for 40 minutes. I don’t know whether that’s doable in terms of how your org is structured, or whether it’s something she would be amenable to. If you have a fair number of employees who are new to the workforce or to the work your org does, it could be a benefit to all to have some sort of program in place to get everyone on the same page, but if it’s just this one employee who isn’t on the same page that’s probably not the right approach.

    4. Lora*

      If you are all kinds of terrible, why does she want to keep working for you? What did she expect you to say, “gosh, you know what, you are right, I shall commence with the tea and dumplings forthwith”?

      I don’t know what she expected to achieve with that 40-minute speech. Unless it is a preface to, “and here is my resignation, goodbye” what did she want to come out of that?

      1. retired*

        I once had a staff member do this. I had joined the organization (female) with no experience in its work (a type of government work different than the government work I’d done before). I just told him that he hadn’t said anything my teenagers hadn’t told me. I later recommended him (with qualifications about needing improvement in his writing) for a promotion he really wanted. In that particular culture, it got bought me credit.

    5. Not A Manager*

      This sounds like someone who does not want the job. “Accidentally” sending you a mean text, and then ON PURPOSE refusing your very generous offer to delete it unread, is either self-sabotage or it’s heading to an outcome that she actually wants. I predict that whatever new job you give her, she will find some reason that you’ve wronged her.

      If you do decide to continue this dialogue with her or to offer her a new job, I would not ignore the elephant in the room. Be very clear that you can’t do endless one-on-ones, that you will continue to require accountability based on metrics, etc. and ask her to really think about whether she can commit to the new role under those circumstances. Lean into the actual, reasonable traits that she’s mischaracterized. Don’t deceive yourself or her by watering them down or pretending that they are negotiable.

      1. Hope Springs Eternal*

        Thank you for this feedback. You are absolutely correct and I am grateful for the insights and advice because this situation is so new to me. I usually have the opposite problem, my previous direct reports ask to come with me when I join new organizations, so this just has thrown me for a loop.

        1. JessicaTate*

          When you’ve had a long track record as a “good boss,” somebody acting like this can really throw you. So, I advise to sit with that. How much of wanting to give her a second chance is a misdirected, “But I KNOW I’m not toxic” impulse? And how much is legit, “She was just having a moment. I can give some grace.” (And I think either/both can be true.)

          I strongly agree with Not A Manager that, if you do give her the new job / second chance, to be really clear about expectations and what is non-negotiable (and non-debatable). Endless one-on-ones are not possible, and the PM software is required. If there’s an accommodation you can make to her performance anxiety (I get that a little — does everything have to be visible to everyone? maybe it does), do it; but I wouldn’t let her opt-out of something that improves efficiency. I’d use Alison’s classic: “Do you think that’s something you can live up to?”

          To give her some grace, I might say to you: It does sound like she was in over her head with her job, and she knew it. That can make a person project all sorts of blame to cope. If you think this new job is something she could genuinely excel at, AND you think she can adapt to the process-y things that you need, it might be worth giving her the chance to live up to your expectations. And if I really thought that this was all bubbling up from insecurity of being bad at her job AND I believed she’d try, I might frame it as, “I see this as a fresh start. I know you can excel at this, and I can’t wait to be part of that.” She’s been feeling incompetent for who knows how long; having a boss say, “I believe in you” and truly mean it can be restorative. If she’s just naturally a drama-llama pill… well, I wouldn’t say that.

          To give you some grace (because no one does that for the boss): You are kind. For pete’s sake, you offered to delete the text sight-unseen! You have expectations, and they are reasonable. And you are thinking about her perspective in all of this. Whatever you decide, it will be with good judgement. No matter how she responds.

          1. Hope Springs Eternal*

            Thank you for the kind words. You put into words what I have been feeling but couldn’t quite articulate. I do understand feeling like you are flailing and are trying to grab onto anything that feels like it will arrest the fall. I also like your framing of the conversation for a fresh start, which I believe is a better frame than second chance because it can wipe the slate clean.

    6. 8675309*

      I would differ from others who have commented so far and give her another chance. She may see you as blunt and straightforward and tried to reflect that back to you, although poorly. Giving her a chance in another role with maybe weekly 1:1 as a mentor, or assign her o e, at first and less later may allow her to shine or fail. It may also provide you with some organizational insights you may not otherwise recieve.

        1. Burnt eggs*

          Whoopsie and sincere apologies. I will change. Thought I was being clever in changing up from a name I wanted to shed.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      From what you have here, you sound like an awesome ED and it sounds like you have a good board behind you.
      The fact that they are letting you decide, shows what the board thinks of your abilities. It’s a huge compliment.
      I am on a board, so BTDT.

      One of the questions you are being paid to consider is, “Is this person an asset or a liability to the organization and its goals?”
      What I like about this question is that it depersonalizes everything. It takes you (or me, if I use my own examples) out of the equation. It’s also a good tool for stepping back and looking at the big picture. I tend to believe there is always a larger and larger picture and we can just keep stepping back and back.

      So this employee is going to need some remedial work. Let’s say at least a year of personalized attention. Do you think this person has the capabilities to enhance/add to the organization? I would do it if I really thought the situation would turn around and the person could excel later on. Do you have the bandwidth to take this on? If NO, then let her go now.

      Let’s say you decide to take this on. Set clear boundaries, put the boundaries in writing. Set clear goals, put the goals in writing.

      Boundary: Must use computer programs as instructed. It’s part of the job and it’s the same requirement everyone else has. In the future any new program becomes implemented she will be required along with everyone else to learn the program.
      Goal: In X time frame, Employee must be using Y program on a routine basis. Not optional.

      Boundary: Must work at changes and updates going on in the organization.
      Goal: Must be in compliance with policies, regs and legal requirements. Not optional, everyone must do this or the organization can be fined/reprimanded/whatever. This goal starts immediately and there is no end date. Failure to be in compliance can result in dismissal, period.

      You probably see the overall pattern here. My guess would be that she shapes up quickly or hands in her notice very soon. But the goal here is not to get her to hand in notice. The goal is to get her to keep her job based on her own merit. There is nothing here that is not required of everyone else.

      What you want to do is build in stop-gaps so this does not go on forever. Not only are you going through this, her cohorts are putting up with crap, too. [Remember she was sending that negative crap to someone else! Maybe they don’t want to listen to this crap any more.] And in the end, it’s truly not just about you, it’s about the organization as a whole.

      I lean toward letting her go now. Think of it this way, your gut is saying NOOOO. For her half of the story she can do a 40 minute tirade and she is probably done with the job in her mind. If you frame it as neither one of you has a mindset of reconstructing/reknitting, you can see this is almost a set up to fail situation. While you might be able to flex some, she might not be able to return from the negative spot she now occupies in her mind.

      1. Lizzie*

        You say she inadvertently sent the text message about you, to you. Who was she intending to send it to? Was it meant for you, or is she bad-mouthing you behind your back?
        This bit just wasn’t clear to me, so I thought I would check, as it is a much worse situation if she meant to send it to someone else and then realised she had sent it to you. If she is deliberately undermining you, it’s time for her to move on. It seems like she does not value, or want to support the changes you are there to initiate.

        1. Hope Springs Eternal*

          It was bad-mouthing me behind my back. And as I type all of this out, and review all these replies, it has given me more to consider. I actually do understand needing to vent sometimes about your boss and especially when the new boss is so different than the old boss — the old boss would be gone for months at a time, would check-in sporadically over email, and when old boss did show up, it was an absolute chaotic whirlwind. The transition from a free-for-all to the ongoing move to a more structured, professional workplace has been HARD for many of the staff. It has been hard on me too because I didn’t anticipate building significant internal processes and procedures.

          Not So NewReader, thank you for your comment. I agree with you that, if a fresh start is offered, both of us need a mindset of reconstructing and boundaries with deliverables. I also love your framing of boundaries and goals as well as stop-gaps because this cannot be a “second verse, same as the first” situation.

          Again, thank you to everyone. I needed these perspectives more than I realized.

  41. Rara Avis*

    I have an unexpected opportunity to apply for an internal promotion. I have a week to decide whether to put my name forth, and I’m really torn. It was not something that was ever on my radar. It would mean less time with my beloved llamas in exchange for more meetings and being the point person for some types of client concerns. But there are aspects of the job that are intriguing and a chance for growth, and the salary boost doesn’t hurt either. I think part of my concern is that if I do try for it and don’t get it, it will take some emotional labor to get over feeling like they don’t think I’m good enough. I’ve read lots of advice on AAM about not taking it personally if you don’t get an interview or a job offer, but it seems like it would be harder to put it aside when it’s internal. I love what I currently do and the promotion is not something I feel passionate about or have always dreamed of doing. But if I don’t go for it now, it might be a long time before an opportunity comes up again, as turnover is very low. I’ve tried making a pro and con list, talking to the current job holder, talking it through with my husband. Advice on what else to weigh in this decision?

    1. Blue Eagle*

      Everyone who puts in a job application for a new job takes the risk of hearing a “no”. And for every “yes” there are probably over a hundred “no’s”. Same thing when one person takes the risk of asking another person out on a date — the no’s always outnumber the yes’s.
      There are many reasons why a person does not get the job, the date, etc that they want and usually the reason is something different than they are “not good enough”.
      Only you can make the decision of whether or not you have the bandwidth to hear that you did not get the job and still be fine with your self-worth.
      If it were me I’d go for it, and if the decision was “no”, I’d make peace with it (but I would ask what skills I would need to improve to be a top candidate in the event the job came up again and would make an effort to acquire/improve those skills); but I am not you – – and only you can evaluate how you will take a “no” in the event the job is offerred to someone else.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I’m in a similar situation – an opportunity just came up that would be a promotion to me and I am fully qualified for it as an internal candidate.

      I’m not applying for it because:
      a) I would risk not continuing my current work that I value highly after the transfer even though the teams are highly related, because the other team has higher internal priorities and I’d probably be assigned to those,
      b) I may have a better chance of pushing for an in-place promotion due to my current work and value to my team, though this is sometimes a lot tougher than getting an internal transfer + promotion, and
      c) the hiring manager is the guy who laid me off 4 years ago (before my skill set became so prized they opened a bunch of new positions) and has a perceived track record of gender bias and has prevented my personal career growth several times now.

      By far my key reason is C, and it is entirely because I can’t stand the thought of being rejected by that hiring manager. I just would never believe it’s a fair assessment coming from him and the residual bitterness over the layoff would probably boil over.

      However, any other team offering that kind of promotion? I’d do it. My thoughts would be that I don’t have to accept if the work is ultimately something I wouldn’t be happy doing, and since I like where I am a rejection would sting but be tolerable because I’d believe that it was fair.

    3. Sandra Dee*

      I was in a similar position 18 months ago for 2 different roles, which were both a step up but still tangentially related to my current role and would still interact with my current team. I didn’t get either role, and have still worked closely with the 2 groups that had the open positions.

      In hindsight, I did not have the technical skills for the one position. For the other position, I would have brought a different level of skill and internal knowledge and relationships , but they hired someone from outside. Yes it stung, and I have had to be professional and make sure this project we worked on jointly was a success. They still rely on me heavily for my internal knowledge and resources.

      Six months ago, I had a major upheaval in my personal life and knew that with my current position and leadership team, I could take the time I needed to be out of town with family, and still function and do my job remotely. I am not sure I would have had the same flexibility if I had gotten the second position. Ultimately, it worked out like it was supposed to. Some times not getting the job is the right thing.

    4. All Het Up About It*

      Is this a job you want? Then apply. Period. Yes, if they choose someone else, you are going to have FEELINGS. But if you don’t apply, then you could have feelings of regret. You could have feelings of resentment if the person who is brought in seems less qualified then you, or just is unpleasant or inept in some way.

      From the way I am reading your question, the only reason you aren’t applying for this job immediately is fear. You should not let fear of rejection guide your decisions. Also if you don’t get the job, reframe it! Meet with the hiring manager, ask why. Not in an unpleasant and defensive way, but “What skills do you think I still need to develop to move into this role in the future? What should I focus on learning from New Person when they are here that you think are their strengths?” Questions like that cannot only demonstrate to management that you aren’t bitter about not getting the role, but also that you truly were interested and that you are looking to grow. And asking these questions could also make it easier to understand that you didn’t get the role just because you weren’t good enough, but because someone else’s skills or experiences better fit that role at this time.

      Also, depending on your company culture, if you do want this role or some other senior role and you DON’T apply for it when offered the opportunity would that be seen as a negative if you applied for another role in the future? Not all places work like that, but it is something to consider as well.

    5. Rara Avis*

      Thanks! I am by nature more inclined to think and worry exhaustively, so it’s helpful to hear your perspectives.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      So if you lose you get to keep a job you love? That does not seem like a big loss to me.

      Here’s the dark deep pit right here: ” it will take some emotional labor to get over feeling like they don’t think I’m good enough.”
      Accurately framed it could read, “It will take some emotional labor to get over the feeling that *I* don’t think *I* am good enough.”
      Often times we can use other people’s faces as a mirror to see how we look. “Do I look competent today? Let me see your facial expression!” This is not a good plan as maybe the person just ate a lemon or a jalapeno or something.

      It does not matter what they think of you. Twenty years from now they will be gone from your life because you will probably have moved on anyway. What truly matters is what YOU think of you.

      You know yourself best. Which is worse:
      1) Try and fail because someone else said no OR
      2)Don’t try and then deal with how you let your own self down.

      I had to have this talk with myself. I decided that it was a greater hardship to deal with the fact that I did not even TRY.
      You know what i learned?

      –Some failures hurt more than others. But very few failures sting for the rest of my life. (Yeah there are a couple that stung for a while.)

      —Consider each opportunity on its own. Ask yourself questions such as “If I get this would I actually be happy with it?” Or more importantly, “If I get this, do I think I have a good chance at succeeding?” Don’t put yourself in places where you know you will not succeed.

      –Understand the “special” things that happen when the sentence, “But if I don’t go for it now, it might be a long time before an opportunity comes up again…” comes up. This restriction really distorts things, suddenly that big shiny piece of glass becomes a diamond and it’s oh-so-valuable. No, it’s just a big shiny piece of glass and you can go find many more just like it. Don’t let the rareness of the opportunity create synthetic stress.

      –If you decide to apply or not apply- recognize something in yourself. There is a part of you that is willing to consider other positions. So whether you apply or not, whether you get the job or not, you now see that you might like to look around once in a while to see what else is going on in your arena that WOULD actually appeal to you.

      Bottom line: You have the luxury of sitting in a job you love, to look around and be a bit picky. If you decide to move on, you can move on to something that really wows you.

  42. matcha123*

    Is is possible to succeed long-term in the workplace if you don’t know what you want to do and if you’re not competitive with others?
    I graduated college in 2006 and hoped to eventually go to grad school. Over all these years I’ve read countless articles about changing careers or advancing in ones career. They all ask the reader to write down what they are good at, or to reach out to people in the field they want to branch into.
    I have no idea what I’m good at and no idea what other fields there are that I could be comfortable in. I feel completely overwhelmed and pretty stupid when I look at my friends who are making mega bucks. Although money isn’t everything, it would be nice to have a job that pays above entry-level wages.

    I think I do a pretty good job at what I do, but I don’t get good or any feedback from work. Yes, that sounds contradictory, but the feedback I have gotten is literally, “Why can’t you write like Jane?” and “Why do you think Jane is better than you?” I’ve been able to successfully complete work outside my job for others and have gotten good feedback. Unfortunately, freelancing is not something I would like to do.

    I know there are many people who have always known what they wanted to do and focused on achieving that goal. Are there any of you who didn’t, and still don’t, know what you want to do? Can I stand out as a good worker if I’m not competitive? To clarify, “not competitive” doesn’t mean that I want to do the bare minimum. I love studying outside of work. However, I strongly hate, to the point of getting stomach cramps, the kind of office competition that some coworkers have. The secrecy around sharing vital information, gossiping, and such and so on.

    1. Rainy*

      I’m not particularly competitive and my degrees are all in a humanities discipline that, despite very low numbers of TT jobs, doesn’t encourage you to think about what else you could do with your degrees.

      I started from the other side of things when I left grad school: what do I want my life to look like and how do I want my work to fit into that? I have a career now, in something that almost always requires a lot of very specific education and training, that I love and am, I flatter myself, very good at. How I got here was a drunkard’s walk and I love that all that seeming randomness led me to a place where my skills and abilities are useful and valued.

      My strongest competition has always been with myself. I don’t like office reindeer games and I literally don’t care about other people’s performance as long as I feel I am living up to my own performance expectations.

    2. Zephy*

      Hello, I could have written this comment. I have never had a good answer to “what I want to be when I grow up.” I’m turning 30 this year, so I think I’m just about out of time to think about it. You’re right, money’s not everything, but I have a hard time thinking of any problem I have that wouldn’t be either completely solved or considerably easier to solve if I had more money than I currently do.

      I have two bachelor’s degrees (awarded in 2013 and 2015), and the only thing either of them are good for is (1) getting master’s degrees (they’re both in disciplines that require master’s+ education to qualify for the license to practice) or (2) checking that box on job applications that use college education as a barrier rather than an actual qualification to do the work.

      I’m sorry your job sucks at feedback, that’s a problem that could most easily be solved by working elsewhere I think, but I know that’s easier said than done. If you’ve actually been asked “why do you think Jane is better than you” and the person asking didn’t operationalize what they meant by “better,” I’m very sorry you work for such a glassbowl. The information hoarders and gossips are also awful – I literally cannot understand the logic of “instead of being in any way pleasant to be around, I’ll just manipulate everyone into quietly tolerating all of my bullshit because I’m the only one that can do X.”

    3. A Girl Named Fred*

      So, first off – only receiving feedback like, “Why can’t you write like Jane?” means that your workplace sucks, not you. If they can’t articulate what they prefer about her writing, how are you supposed to emulate it? (Not to mention that they shouldn’t be directly comparing you like that, because wow that’s inappropriate and also sets you all up for an unhealthy, competitive environment.)

      Secondly, count me in as one of the folks who have no idea what they want to do. (I think there’s more of us than there are of those who’ve always known what they wanted!) This very minute, I can’t stand the organization I work for because of all the office politics you mentioned, and I’m trying to use this time to evaluate what I like and don’t like about what I do as well as what I could and would be interested in pivoting to if/when I leave. I think Rainy has an excellent way to approach it, and I unfortunately don’t have a ton of advice outside of that. I just wanted to say that you are very much not alone in not knowing what you want to do, and IMO you can absolutely be a good worker without playing the office games. You just have to find the right fit. (And I wish us both the best of luck in finding it!!)

    4. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

      Hi, are you me? Most of my relevant work experience is in two fields that have spectacularly imploded and in my most recent field, marketing, the positions pretty much require you to be a graphic designer as well. (Which I am not.) I do have plenty of skills that I would think are transferable and I pick up new software very quickly, but so do plenty of other people. Oh yes, and I’m over 40.
      I’ve been temping for the past several years, but I’d really like a full-time permanent position. That’s beginning to seem like the impossible dream, especially since I’m feeling lost as to what I should even be looking for. I know you’re always supposed to have a plan B to fall back on, but since I’ve gone through a series of Plan Bs…I don’t even know where to restart.

    5. PollyQ*

      There are various aptitude and attitude tests out there. (“Attitude” meaning “what do you like?” not “what kind of moods do you have?) I took the Strong Attitude test 30+ years ago, which basically asks you how much you enjoy various activities, then tells you what kinds of careers people who share those tastes enjoy. It was helpful in pointing me towards something I already knew I liked, but also suggesting a number of other careers that I wouldn’t have guessed at. So I’d recommend you take a couple of those tests, and also try informational interviews for people in careers that sound interesting.

      As others have noted, “Why can’t you write like Jane?” is such terrible, useless feedback that it barely deserves to be called feedback at all. If your current colleagues are the ones with all the secrecy, info hoarding, etc., then it’s another mark against your workplace culture. This kind of behavior is unfortunately not rare, but there are plenty of functioning workplaces where it doesn’t happen. Many jobs have a whole bunch of people happily doing more or less the same work, and it’s only competitive if you’re moving into management.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I so very much agree with those who are saying your work place sucks.
      Telling you to write like Jane is not instructive, nor informative and it is a very lazy way of managing people.
      “Boss, why can’t you actually, you know, manage people?” grrr. I am angry on your behalf.

      Additional info confirms you have a toxic workplace- secrecy in sharing necessary info, gossiping, etc. This is all stuff toxic workplaces are made of.

      I think what is necessary here is a discussion of what competitive means to you. It looks like your office pits people against each other. This is not competition. This is abuse.
      If you cannot thrive in this environment it is because you are a normal, thinking person.

      You actually have answered your own question about being a good worker without being competitive. And your answer is found in what your freelance customers are saying.
      I think it’s time to find a new employer. Someone who appreciates solid work day after day after day….

      FWIW, you have a very, very disrespectful boss.

  43. HR Lady*

    Did not get either of the two internal roles I went for and got the kind and constructive feedback on a day that my mental health was completely in the toilet and I have some other stuff going on at home. I kept it together while I got the feedback, then cried a lot. (Not even sad I didn’t get the roles! The people who did are great! I quite like my current job! Just hit a wall of being able to process emotions!)

    My manager then phoned me about an hour later to commiserate and gently suggested that even though this hadn’t worked it did open up a move to a role that’s adjacent and has the opportunity to be really great for me and maybe I should interview for THAT and my initial response was a polite “Um, I can’t think about that right now, very busy, sorry,” whereas the actual soundtrack in my head ABSOLUTELY NOT THERE IS A PANDEMIC ON I CANNOT PUT MYSELF THROUGH MORE CHANGE THIS IS A STITCH UP.

    Anyway. After a night of feeling very sorry for myself, had a chat with the manager for the adjacent role. Said it sounded interesting but I wouldn’t do it if I was made to interview for it and wanted assurances about my specific duties so I could get the experience I was told I was missing as I didn’t feel it was beneficial to make major changes at this time otherwise. Astonishingly they… agreed to everything? Basically it was, yep, it’s yours, we’ll tell the other candidates it’s closed, here is a list of what you’re doing oh and by the way we’ve secured you a post on the very very small fast-track promotion programme.

    In conclusion, it’s been a weird week and I’m a bit astonished that it’s all worked out… possibly as well as it could have?

    1. Yellow Warbler*

      It sounds like maybe you hit a wall that made you Take No Sh*t and that’s exactly the attitude you needed at that time! Congratulations. Now, once you feel a bit more settled, think about how to channel the positive parts of that for the future.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I chuckled at that “Take No Sh*t”. Yep that is exactly what happened here, OP. You laid it out in irrefutable logic and they said, “Yep. That’s right.” Good for you and congrats.

  44. Gavriel*

    Something I’ve been wondering lately… the group I work for has been bought and sold a number of times over the years, and it seems that every time this happens, benefits get cut and/or policies change in a way that makes things worse for ~75% of people. Folks get mad, they grumble, they bring grievances to management, and some inevitably quit with disastrous fallout for everyone else. And yet, the only response I’ve ever seen from management types is a shrug and a “that’s just the way it is.” There never seems to be a shred of concern. Am I naive to think that this is really short sighted? I’m not exactly young, and I wouldn’t call myself idealistic. Addressing the concerns of your workforce and trying to work with them just seems… normal and a good idea? Does anyone else have perspective on this situation?

    1. WellRed*

      I think a lot of this depends on, why is your group continually being sold and who is doing the buying? If you are being bought by private equity firms, yeah, they’re only gonna care about the bottom line. On the other hand, we were acquired by a bigger (much different kind) of company and they’ve invested in us in a way that hadn’t happened for years under the previous, anxious to retire, owner.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Like WellRed said, it depends who is buying and why. I also think a lot of times there’s a desire to cut the staffing and reducing pay/benefits is a way to get people to leave without having to do layoffs, which incur additional responsibilities on the company.

    3. RC Rascal*

      Also— what is the profit margin like at your company & in your industry? If they are under pressure then stuff just gets cut. Benefits go first.

    4. tangerineRose*

      Are the management types in a position to do much about this? They might be under a lot of pressure from the new owners.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      It’s happening all over. And it’s been going on for a long time.
      Everything is shrinking. I do mean everything. My grandfather’s insurance paid for my grandmother’s nursing home IN FULL. And he had been gone for many years by the time she needed nursing home care.
      We never hear of stuff like this now.
      There’s lots of other stuff gone by the way side.

      If you read along with what Alison posts here, she will help you and anyone protect themselves from this crap.
      Sometimes it entails moving on.

      You can find business articles regarding larger companies that are basically piranha. They buy a company, strip away assets, cut costs to the bone and then sell it. It’s very irresponsible behavior, it’s unethical, but there doesn’t seem to be an halt.

      Back in the 90s my husband’s company felt his department was a Loser. So they cut the department free, spun it off. The department became a company under another name. Picture a little canoe adrift at sea, picture that level of vulnerability. Sure enough, a larger European firm picked up my husband’s company. Let’s say my husband’s company made bathtub toys for kids. The bigger company made real life battleships but wanted to diversify. Yeah, right. They did everything they could think of to break my husband’s company. That really did not totally kill the company so they sold it, to yet another company. The next company was worse. They wanted 24-7 availability and so on. And some how they did not manage to break up my husband’s little company either. So they too sold it. Now I think it’s more like a mom and pop chain than the big international firm it used to be.

      Stay alert and be willing to move about. That is the best thing I can say.

      1. pancakes*

        The story about your husband’s company reminds me of a strange situation I read about earlier this week – the Chicago improv theater group Second City has just been bought by a private equity firm. Who knows what they’re planning to do with it!

  45. Marin*

    I’m solidly mid-career at 40 with 15 years of experience (and a bachelors and masters degree). I’m feeling kind of lost. Don’t love being an A/E consultant. Tired of the culture. I manage a couple of big projects and small team. I signed up for my company’s mentorship program and was paired with someone who is two levels above me in another office and another department. We just had our first meeting. She’s great but I’m having trouble defining my goals for the mentorship program. I’m not sure I’m equipped to move farther up at this company. Many people close out their career exactly where I’m at. Maybe that’s fine. Maybe I want to change direction and get out of consulting.

    But in the short term, I feel like I’m wasting my mentor’s time. I’m not sure what I want to get out of this. Has anyone had a good experience with a mentor at mid career? Either having a mentor or being one?

    I’m probably not going to be able to come back and answer comments very frequently this afternoon. Sorry for that!

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      This is not specific to your field, but could the question of whether to move up in the company *be* what you want to find out from your mentor? Questions like:

      *Who succeeds in those higher roles? Who struggles?
      *What changes to work/life balance occurs going from your level to a higher level?
      *What’s different about the work and culture in your mentor’s department?

      I wouldn’t talk to your mentor about wanting to leave consulting, just because that might not be great for your future at this current company.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      “How do I figure out if I am equipped to move up in this company? What do they look for? What do I need to do? What will it be like once I am there?”

      “Many people close out their careers at this point. How do I figure out if that is the best route for me?”

  46. Humble schoolmarm*

    Question for fellow k-12 teachers: lately my principal has gotten really reactive. She’s sending e-mails at 7:30 about new rules or policies that she wants enacted and announced the next morning at 9:00. Although these policies are directed at students, they also have an impact on the teachers in terms of additional things to track or alternate assignments to come up with. There’s also a problem that consequences are being threatened without follow through ie. they tell the students that there will be detentions for tardiness, but then tell the staff that they don’t actually want to have detentions.
    Have other folks had experience with this and how/if you approach it?

    1. Rara Avis*

      I’m lucky to have a great department chair who would go to bat for us on issues like that, probably with the help of other department chairs. I feel like Allison often recommends pushing back as a group.

    2. Teach*

      What is your building leadership structure? In mine, we have formal Building Leadership Teams of selected and stipended teachers who help with big-picture policies, procedures, etc. That would be one group that would help approach this kind of issue. We also have more informal grade level and content teams, who would also be able to point out issues as a group, or at least ask clarifying questions. (i.e. “We are currently monitoring the halls and providing verbal cues to students to help prevent tardiness, in addition to the last two minutes music played on the intercom. If we assign detention to students who are still tardy, we are unsure how to go about meeting the goal of reducing tardies. Can we make some time to talk about this in our faculty meeting this week so that we are all on the same page – thanks!”)

  47. "Ideas Man"*

    Remember the LW who wanted to be hired as an “ideas man” and sit around inventing stuff, without any real work experience? We have one of those, only he has 40 years in the field. His job is basically to sit in his giant office (with a wall full of patents) and think up new stuff.

    This past week is the first time I have held meetings that he is heavily involved in, and MY GOD I cannot stand this dude. We’re getting into the nitty gritty of logistics, bench testing, and R&D issues, but he booms in with rambling monologues that hijack the entire meeting (full of VP-level employees, who are impossible to pin down) for theoretical think-pieces. I am losing my mind.

    1. JustaTech*

      Good grief. I mean, I see the value in hiring someone with a track record of great, workable ideas, but I also see how those kinds of people are really not suited to nitty-gritty meetings.
      Can you try and exclude him from those kinds of meetings, “Oh, this is just logistics, Bob, it’s a waste of your talents”, that kind of thing?
      Barring that, is there someone sufficiently senior in these meetings to cut him off (professionally) before he wastes the entire meeting?

      (My spouse just met with a person like this who’d just been hired to their organization and was like “everything you’ve done is super cool, but what are you going to do with us?” and then there was a long pause where it was clear that the Ideas Guy didn’t actually know.)

    2. Malika*

      I remember having a grandboss like this and he was exhausting to deal with. He was the company founder and therefore you had to humour him, even though his rambling actions could completely derail meetings and sometimes the afternoons of employees that were there to get sh-t done, not appease his ego. In the end, they managed to convince him to make the lateral move to CIO, and what a blessed relief that was. He no longer needed to be included in the same amount of meetings and productivity soared.

  48. Postdoc*

    How long should I wait before reaching out to HR about paperwork to get started? I was told I am being officially added to the adjunct pool at a local college two weeks ago. The earliest I will be given a class is May. In the email, I was told HR would be in touch with paperwork but I haven’t heard anything. Should I reach out? The HR contact was cc’d on the email.

    I’m unsure because it really isn’t time sensitive yet but it seems weird to have radio silence for two weeks.

    1. Reba*

      I don’t think it’s weird! But I also don’t think it would be wrong for you to send a polite follow up email, either.

      1. Postdoc*

        Thanks. I don’t want to come across as too pushy, especially when I won’t start for months but I want to make sure I am in the system when they are making assignments for May and I don’t know when they do that.

    2. Rainy*

      I’d follow up. My experience of higher ed HR is that they are either extremely on the ball or off in another court entirely watching a jury trial and wondering why there’s no ball. Sounds like you might have gotten one of the latter.

    3. NotaPirate*

      I’d give a week between emails unless they’d suggested something else within the email “like On Wed I will email you this”.

    4. Former Adjunct*

      In my experience teaching adjunct this is normal—you’re likely next semesters “issue” for HR (or the dept head, depending who is holding up the paperwork) and they’re trying to keep their head above water on this one. There’s no harm in reaching out to HR but don’t be surprised if you don’t get your contract for a while. And even if you do, adjuncts have few rights—I got my classes given to a full professor 2 days before the semester started once, with no compensation for all the work I had already done to prepare. Adjuncting is its own world, and normal business norms need not apply..

  49. olusatrum*

    Looking for some advice on dealing with recruiters, as I’ve never worked with one before: I applied to a generic no-name job posting last week and got a call the next day from the recruiter who posted it. As far as I could tell, my experience looked like a great match for the posting and I thought the first steps had gone really well, but it’s been crickets since they said they were headed in to present me to the client, and they haven’t answered an email request for an update.

    It’s definitely possible there’s nothing wrong here and we’ll get back in touch soon, but there are plenty of 1 star Google reviews for this recruiter detailing the exact same pattern of first steps that seem to go great and then being ghosted entirely. There are also plenty of 5 star reviews, though, and I’d be a little surprised if they really end up ghosting me because it seemed like they had put in a decent amount of effort up front, and they also said they had other positions I would be a good fit for.

    The issue is that they revealed the client was a large local employer with a great reputation that I had already been working on applying to. A former teammate of mine is a current employee there as well. I had been in the middle of trying to decide which position to apply to and whether or not to contact that teammate when the recruiter got in touch.

    At what point do you think I give up on the recruiter and try applying on my own? Is that still an option? It would be a real bummer if I missed out on any opportunity with this employer because of this frustrating recruiter encounter.

    1. pretzelgirl*

      Alot of recruiter use boiler plate ads to get candidates in their internal databases. I have NEVER had a good experience with a recruiter. Personally I just avoid them. I would apply on your own.

    2. Jenn*

      I’d be inclined to send a final e-mail to the recruiter stating that unless you hear from them by (date), you assume that they never submitted your name to the employer and that any relationship between the two of you is severed. Then (assuming that date passes without any contact), I’d apply to the company on my own. That way if the recruiter later tries to claim you as their candidate, you have documentation that you severed the relationship.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      This seems typical to me – I had this happen with several external recruiters that collected all my info and were supposed to present me to a client and I never heard back again. I think I decided I’d been ghosted after a month of no contact, based on the initial couple of calls happening within a day or two of each other. By contrast, I worked with a recruiter who kept my details on file, sent me job postings to consider, and kept me informed (either proactively or responding within a day if I emailed him) whenever he presented me regardless of outcome. So that’s what I consider 5 star performance.

      For the review, I’d assume the 5 stars are all from the people who got jobs or at least interviews from the recruiter and 1 star from the ghosted candidates. Do any of them give any sense of the length of time from first contact to either interview or assumed ghosting? The challenge is whether you can call it ghosting if you don’t hear something before the application deadline passes – you don’t want to miss your opportunity to apply directly if you want to, but if you’re already in as the recruiter’s candidate and just haven’t been scheduled for an interview yet, it could confuse things to apply separately.

      When you do decide to call it, I like Jenn’s suggestion to send a closing email to the recruiter severing the relationship due to no contact if you want to pursue with the company directly (which it sounds like you do).

      1. MacGillicuddy*

        I’ve used recruiters in the past, some with good results . I never let a recruiter submit my name to an employer unless the recruiter tells me the name of the company first, and I give my permission to be submitted.

        I’m very upfront with recruiters about this. I tell them that I have been job searching in-depth, and need to know where my resume has been, in case I’ve already applied there.

        The reputable recruiters have been ok with this. For the ones that balk, it seems they think I’ll go behind their back and apply independently, cheating them out of their commission.

        One thing I ask them is “has this company engaged you to find candidates for this position?” If yes, then these are usually companies who prefer working through a recruiter rather than deal with hundreds of applicants who answer job ads.

        Some recruiters are just collecting resumes and then trying to pitch them to companies that have openings. It’s not worth doing business with them.

  50. TiTi*

    I just wanted to say I am pretty proud of myself. I started a job at the beginning of the new year and it has been a major struggle. They didn’t have anyone in this position before I started (even though they should have) and one person on the management team is questioning everything I do, talking down to me, acts like he knows every aspect of my job, and circumventing me every chance I get so I can’t get the respect of the people I am supposed to be leading. It got so bad I wanted to quit and I cried one day.

    It is important to note that I didn’t feel I could push back too much because this is a small company and the person causing problems is really close to the owner and they don’t have an official hierarchy so I didn’t know if he had any power over my job. Well I checked with our office manager and asked if I answer to this person at all and explained the issues I have been having and he told me under no circumstances do I answer to him and that the office manager and the owner will talk to the person I have been having issues with but I can also absolutely push back against him.

    I’m just proud that I talked to my office manager because I try to not rock the boat but I also don’t want to feel like I have to leave this job. Hopefully things will get better!

    2. PollyQ*

      Good for you! Those kinds of conversations are always hard to have. I’m glad you got a good response from your actual supervisors, and I hope things improve.

  51. many bells down*

    About a year before the pandemic, I applied for a “dream job” I really wanted: a position in museum education at a museum where I’ve been a regular volunteer. I got a form letter rejection (which is a whole nother story), took a break from volunteering to look at other jobs, and wound up as an office manager at a different nonprofit.

    And I’ve been SO lucky. The museum has only barely reopened and they’re not taking school groups. I’d have been laid off from that “dream job” months ago if I’d gotten it. Instead I’m in line for a promotion already and I’m getting a ton of professional development relating to all the new tasks I’ve had to take on.

    Anyone else have a story about not getting a job you really wanted that ended up being the best thing that could have happened? I want to hear your story!

    1. Been There Done That*

      Oh yes! Twice I interviewed for jobs I really wanted and was so excited with the opportunity to work with the boss at both places. I know of them professionally and respected them and the organizations. Both times I was ghosted even after receiving a “soft” offer from one of them (as in I think you are the perfect fit, I just need to get you in to talk with a couple other people) ….and both times the bosses left their respective companies within 3 months of when the position would have started. Talk about being lucky.

    2. Okumura Haru*

      I had an interview for an awesome-sounding job at the Austin Public Library. I obviously didn’t get it, and it REALLY stung for awhile afterwords.

      Looking back, I’m really happy I didn’t get it. My current job has its share of frustrations, but I’m really happy here, more so than I would be there. Austin is cool, but I’m content with visiting once in a blue moon.

    3. Laura*

      Was in round 9 of interviews with Facebook for a policy role when I decided to walk away for a much lower offer already on the table. Two years later Facebook broke democracy. I consider that a massive bullet dodge!

    4. ThatGirl*

      I’ve had a few interviews where I thought it would be a great opportunity or a great fit and was pretty bummed when I didn’t get it, but so far it’s always worked out that something better came along – better paying, better fit, closer to home, etc. I got laid off in November and a few weeks later got contacted by a company that once upon a time I would have LOVED To work for — but this time, I was more savvy and saw a few red flags in both the GlassDoor reviews and my interactions with the recruiter. And thankfully, I got to gracefully drop out of the process when I got an offer for my current job.

    5. TCO*

      During my last job search I got rejected by one organization at the end of the process when an unexpected internal candidate stepped forward. Getting that news was really tough–I thought it was the best opening I’d find during my job search and that I wouldn’t get any interviews for other roles with a similar title and level of responsibility.

      The next month I was offered an interview at a different organization for a role with a similar title and level. I was offered and accepted that job, and I couldn’t be happier! I love my job and while the other organization would have been fine, the one I ended up at is a better fit.

    6. AnotherLibrarian*

      I didn’t get a job as a curator at a collection I desperately wanted to work it. It would have been an amazing opportunity, but I have since found out that the place is super toxic and I am not very grateful I didn’t get the position.

    7. Jenn*

      I had been out of work for a year when I was invited to interview at an organization half-way across the country. I flew to the midwest to the east coast (on their dime on very short notice) for the interview. Three days after I got back, I received a rejection letter in the mail (yes, the actual mail.) It was pretty obvious they mailed it almost immediately after the interview. I was disappointed because I needed a job and this one was decent, though I did have some issues with the organization’s stances on some issues. Fortunately, I started the interview process for my current job fairly soon afterward and only moved 3.5 hours away from “home.” This turned out to be ideal as in the past several years I’ve had to make several short notice trips home due to illnesses and deaths in my extended family and a 3.5 hour drive is much more manageable than a 3+ hour plane ride.

    8. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      My husband has the exact same story as you – was a finalist for a job he really wanted (at an aquarium), but ended up getting a job with slightly less pay and responsibility. The aquarium staff have been furloughed/laid off for a year, and he’s in the middle of writing his job description for a huge promotion! Plus now we work at the same employer and can carpool, which is a supremely underrated benefit.

    9. Susie*

      TFA (Teach for America) and it was a super rude rejection letter.

      But hearing the experiences of former TFA participants and now being more aware of critiques of the model…definitely dodged a bullet there.

    10. Been There*

      One of my interview horror stories from when I was fresh out of school, was with a company that ended up being investigated for fraud. I am very happy they ghosted me.

    11. Juneybug*

      For a few months, I was a substitute support staff for a school district (basically I would receive a call when one of their office staff at various schools throughout the district called in sick). I applied for one of their full-time position and didn’t get it. Everyone told me that I was a shoo-in. Everyone sang my praises for the sub work I did. So hearing that “no, we didn’t hire you”, I was crushed.
      The superintendent later told me that he didn’t hire me because it wouldn’t have been a good fit at that school and to please hold on, he really wanted to get me into a full-time position.
      Ironically, it wasn’t until after the interview/phone call from supt that I actually worked at that school. And wow, did I dodge a bullet!! The head secretary was mean and controlling. As the sub for her soon to be departing employee (and I totally understand why she jump ship), the head secretary would rather have me sit there and let the phones ring than have me “make a mistake”. Or when I decided to clean the office (wiping down counters and light dusting), she told me “I was doing it all wrong and this is how I want you to dust”. Or if I took down a message when someone came in the office (for a teacher or another staff member), she had to review it to ensure I did it right (how hard is to take a name and phone number down?!).
      It was common practice that a sub could make copies for the teachers during the free time. Nope, this head secretary would not allow it because “it might take me away from my responsibilities.” Which was sitting there with nothing to do so I wouldn’t do __________ wrong.
      Over time, as I worked with other school staff, we developed a work-around where if the job was for horrible person, I would turn down the job on the computer system due to “I was not feeling well”. Later on, I would get a phone call on my personal cell from the schools I enjoyed working at and I would go in because “I felt better now”.
      I did get a full-time position and worked for the district for 5+ years. But so glad I didn’t the job with horrible head secretary.

  52. Spearmint*

    I currently work a government job, and while I want to continue working in the government/public policy realm in my next role, I want to transition to a different policy area. The policy area I current work in is important, but I just don’t find it interesting and my personality doesn’t click well with the kind of people who typically work in this area.

    How easy/difficult is it to pivot to a very different area of public policy? Would I have to start over if I switched, or even go back to school? Or are the underlying transferable skills more important?

    1. Ruth*

      Are there any areas where your current policy area and goal policy area intersect? That could be a good way to dip your toe in. You might also want to think about agencies that look for generalists/people with multiple policy areas in their portfolio. Executive and legislative budget offices and state auditors come to mind.

      Non-profit policy shops can also be a way to work in multiple issue areas. For example, organizations that are part of the State Priorities Partnership are often frankly two small to have people focus on just one issue.

    2. Texan in local government*

      I think it depends on the nature of your org. In the City of Austin, as recently as ten years ago, it was common for assistant city managers and their direct reports to rotate through policy areas; the ACM over parks and roads would trade places with the ACM for police and fire, for example.

      At jobs lower in the org chart, there was a similar dynamic in play, often with a consistent throughline. For example, a planner with a PMI cert would do project management for the juvenile justice department, until she promoted into a different policy area and became a senior planner for the health department. I’ve seen a similar dynamic in Texas local governments outside of Austin (county and district orgs, for example).

  53. Okumura Haru*

    So, my school is returning to partial in-person learning next week.

    We’re expecting anywhere from 15 to 6o percent of our students to be on campus.

    I’m nervous and excited. I’m happy to have kids back and using the library, and when we were doing hybrid learning last semester, the kids who were on campus were very good at distancing and wearing masks.

    On the other hand, there’s still a lot of risk. Most of the teachers here have been vaccinated (as have I), but there’s still more risk involved than I’d like.

  54. Had A Bad Week*

    Removed — please stay focused on work questions. (But I’m sorry about your bad week!) – Alison

    1. Not So NewReader*

      My husband was in the repair biz for decades. He always said the hardest problems to diagnose are the randomly occurring problems.

      The guy could have explained to you, OP, that the problem comes and goes. In order to repair it, it needs to happen in front of them. He could have used a few more words. And that have a nice day thing sounds like being blown off.

  55. Be the Change*

    I learned yesterday that I am no longer allowed to do a part of my job that I really love doing and adds a lot of value to the rest of my job. It’s also quite a part of my personal identity. The reasons are partly technical and partly because some other giant projects need to take priority for a while.

    I understand the decision, and I’m not angry or upset; just a little heartbroken! We’ll be able to revisit this in a year or two. But if at that time the decision is still the same I will honestly consider quitting because without this part of my job, the rest of my job will not make a lot of sense long term.

    (Sorry, vague, I know.)

    1. Decidedly Me*

      Is it at all possible to see if you can get it back? Or, if they split out the tasks of your job, if you can be the one to get those pieces?

      If these are the parts of your job that truly make you happy, I wouldn’t wait a year or two to see if they return. I would see about finding another job with those parts in it. Work takes up too much time to not be something you enjoy.

    2. Tech editor by day*

      That sounds awful! I would give it some time, but perhaps it is time to revisit your vision for yourself professionally and think about whether there are other positions, at your current employer or not, that would enable you to spend more time on things you jam on. I mean, if what you really like was only part of your job, is there a different job where it is a big part? I’m not a Pollyanna, but I’ve been laid off twice, and both times got me to think about what I really wanted and I ended up in roles that fit me better.

  56. Anon Admin*

    I’m an admin assistant at a small nonprofit, only 6 employees. Our Executive Director is retiring and the search for their replacement has begun. I’ve never gone through a leadership transition before – anybody have any advice?

    1. Been There Done That*

      Having been the new person on senior leadership teams several times at nonprofits and having also survived a leadership change I can offer this: Try not to constantly compare the new ED to the old ED, especially if the old ED was there for a long time and/or was very beloved. Everyone has their own style. Give them a chance. Don’t withhold information – from everything to where are the post it notes to information about donors and organizational histories. When in doubt, ask questions.

    2. Kiitemso*

      I’ve only experienced this in for-profit businesses, so YMMV when it comes to nonprofits.

      Every leader brings their own style of doing things, some may look pretty critically at things like spending or team organizations, while others may take a while to look at the way things are run and focus more on just expanding or bringing their own expertise to the table, with no major changes. From my experience, one CEO hired a lot of people so everybody had their own “hat” whereas before the org had some people wearing a lot of hats. Another saw some of this as unnecessary expenditure and consolidated some roles and downsized some departments.

    3. ..Kat..*

      I recommend seeing if the ED who is leaving would be willing to be a reference for you if you decide to job search. If so, get their personal contact info. Also, update your resume. This way, if the changes result in a job you no longer want, you have a head start on looking for a new job.

      I find that doing the above makes me feel like I have more options. When I feel like I have more options, change is easier.

    4. Malika*

      I experienced it three times in one job. I decided to be curious instead of wary and all three times worked out really well.
      It pays to be flexible. The new ED will be very different to the last ED. With each new appointment they want someone who has a fresh perspective and wants to shake things up. If you keep an open mind, this is no bad thing. They may proffesionalize certain processes, invite you to explore new areas for your organization, encourage you to develop new proffesional skills. It can re-invigorate your job, you will discover capabilities you didn’t even know you had.

  57. Anonforthis*

    My company wants to start tracking employees who have received the Covid vaccine, I don’t have any background why but am involved in implementing the tracking method. When I mentioned this to my partner, who is a nurse, they said that information falls under HIPPA and employers cannot ask employees whether they have or have not received the vaccine. I’m wondering if my company is opening a can of worms asking for this information, as they don’t (can’t?) track any other health-related information. I guess this may be considered a public safety issue since we do have personnel who go into homes, schools, and businesses in the course of doing their work. Not sure if there will be exceptions made due to the nature of this pandemic but still a sticky area. Thoughts?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      This would have pretty much zero connection to HIPAA at all. About the only way HIPAA would come into effect is if your company wanted to start trying to call people’s doctors to get their health information, and in that case, it’s the DOCTORS who would be covered by HIPAA restrictions, not your company.

      1. Annie Moose*

        Yes, a bizarrely common misconception about HIPAA is that it means employers or businesses can’t ask people about medical data, but that’s completely untrue. The part of HIPAA that deals with medical data privacy applies only to “covered entities” (medical providers, health insurance companies, etc. that transmit health data electronically) and their clients/patients. And it doesn’t say anything about a person freely disclosing their own medical data–it only says that the covered entities generally can’t disclose it without authorization from the individual.

        So unless your company is proposing that they contact your healthcare providers/insurance company, HIPAA doesn’t come into play–and even if they did reach out to them, it’d be the provider violating HIPAA, not your company.

    2. pancakes*

      HIPPA generally does not apply to employers, but it does apply to information employers request from HIPPA covered entities (“health care providers, health plans, and health care clearinghouses”). The EEOC has issued guidance that employers can require vaccination, and there are a number of articles, law firm white papers, etc., about exactly what this means in practice. There’s a Jan. 21, 2021 article in the National Law Review, for example, titled “EEOC Says Employers May Mandate COVID-19 Vaccinations – Subject to Limitations.” It seems really odd and off to me that your employer seems to have tasked you with tracking this information without having thoroughly analyzed these issues and informed you of their analysis in great detail.

    3. D3*

      Your nurse friend IS bound by HIPAA as she most likely works for a covered entity. So in her work with patients this is protected health information and she needs to abide by HIPAA.
      Your company IS NOT bound by HIPAA unless you fall under the very narrow definition of a covered entity. And even then, it’s only for patients, not employees. I’d bet money that if she works for a large health care organization (like a hospital!) they are absolutely keeping tabs on employee vaccinations. And in many hospitals, employees who do not get certain vaccinations may not be eligible to work in some areas. Or may have to wear a mask the whole time they are on hospital property, etc. I know my hospital has always done this. No flu shot = mandatory mask during flu season, period. Employees who got the flu shot have a sticker on their badge. If you are found to be working without a mask and you haven’t been vaccinated for the flu that year = immediate dismissal.
      In short, HIPAA only applies to “covered entities” in their work with *patients*

    4. Anonforthis*

      Thanks for the HIPPA lesson, I obviously had no idea (nor does my partner)! :) I guess we’ll see how this goes because the other area that might be sticky is mandating getting the vaccine. I sure am glad I don’t work in HR! :)

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        I believe (though I haven’t looked in a minute, so grain of salt) that mandating the vaccine is still legally dodgy, because it was authorized by the FDA under their emergency procedures. So ethically, it’s still technically in the research process, and you can’t require people to participate in research. Like, I work for the largest hospital system in my state, we have academic and research hospitals under our umbrella, and while we do mandate flu vaccines, we are not mandating COVID vaccines for ethical reasons. (Of course, we’re HIGHLY ENCOURAGING them for anyone who qualifies.)

        1. Natalie*

          I believe there was some speculation about this in the summer and fall, but their latest guidance treats it like any other vaccine. Sincerely held religious objections and medical contraindications have to be reasonably accommodated, but beyond that it can be mandated.

          2. Buni*

            I presume like most things it boils down to “They’re allowed to ask, but they’re not allowed to do anything about an answer they don’t like…”

          3. Malarkey01*

            It’s a specific part of the federal law that outlines the EUA process. It cannot be legally mandated until it is fully licenses. However employers can make some staffing/business decisions based on EUA vaccine status as long as its not affecting employment- for example they could say an unvaccinated employee cannot have direct interaction with an at risk customer population and transfer someone to filing/desk duty instead.

            This changes after EUA.

    5. JustaTech*

      Employers can totally ask about what vaccines you’ve had, if they are relevant for your work. I work with human blood, so my employer is allowed to ask (ask) if I’ve been vaccinated against HepB, and if I would like to be vaccinated against HepB, which the company would pay for. It’s a safety thing.
      Many hospitals require their staff (or at least staff that interacts with patients) to either get a flu shot or wear a mask for all of flu season, both for their own safety and for the safety of the patients (and other staff).

      Since your staff are interacting closely with the public this could very well be a safety thing for both staff and clients, so it seems like it is work related. But I would want to check with HR best practices/employment lawyer about the best way to securely track this and address inequalities that will come up about vaccine access.

    6. Inigo Montoya*

      Our company is keeping track of when employees will get the 2nd vaccine, as we expect we’ll have to cover for people if/when they have a rough reaction.

  58. It's the Quit for Me*

    Can someone give me permission to sort of mess around with my career?

    I’m about to turn 29 (sigh) and for the longest time, I’ve been on a path where I haven’t taken many risks (in my mind.) It was college, straight to grad school, then job. I could not afford to mess around. I have stayed in my positions almost two years (almost always I have left at the 18-22 month mark–once for moving, once for toxic, and now because I think my job is a poor fit with the direction.) I take the jobs that seem to make the most career path sense, and now am on the road to promotion in my current position. The thing is, the promotion is taking me away from what I really enjoy–working with people. It’s meeting after meeting after meeting. And while I’ve been here a year, and I’m considering staying to get this promotion experience under my belt, I am miserable.

    I had two people in my circle offer me part time positions in teaching and in more client based services. A full time position also opened near me where it is client facing as well, and it’s a part of the field I’ve *really* wanted to try. The risk is that it does pay less initially (with my lack of experience in that particular part) and insurance doesn’t come until a few months in, but the joy of knowing I could work with clients and safely take this part time adjunct faculty position is SO SO tempting. I have savings built up too.

    I think I am also experiencing some kind of FOMO, as everyone (I mean…My parents. My colleagues. My older sister.) thinks I’m crazy for even THINKING about leaving this job in the middle of a promotion. Sure, the promotion was not great financially (3% with a LOT of added responsibility) and yes, I am getting ulcers from stress, but the title of “project manager and lead” is tempting. I could try it out for 8 more months to get that experience. I feel like leaving this job for something else I want to try is foolish, because I could be losing out on “the right” path.

    But I won’t lie… Thinking about pursuing these other paths is so tempting. I’m doing my research too, networking and talking to other people in that part of the field I’m interested in. I want to do it. But I’m afraid I’m about to f’up my career.

    1. Frankie Bergstein*

      What about doing some of the directly-with-people work in your volunteer opportunities or outside of work? I say that b/c you’ll likely end up in management eventually anyway, so even if you change jobs, you might end up exactly where you are in a few years.

      1. It's the Quit for Me*

        I have definitely thought about volunteering, it would get me some of this experience I want, but I want to make it my full time thing. I think I know that this job itself is not the one for me. It is also way too busy to find time to volunteer in my position. I’m working over the weekends now. But I don’t know if I’d eventually end up in management like my current job… My current job is in public health program management, and the other jobs are in outpatient/private practice setttings (and then classes with teaching.) So 80% of it is client interaction, while my current job is 80% stakeholder engagement.

    2. Temperance*

      My advice is always to never take a paycut, unless there’s a really, really amazing reason for it. (Like how some lawyers do BigLaw to knock out their loans and then go public interest afterward.)

      I wouldn’t give up health insurance and pay for something you might like. Why not seek out volunteer and board opportunities?

      1. It's the Quit for Me*

        Unfortunately, for volunteer experience, I can get some generally… But with this specific field, it is a niche that does not often offer volunteer experience (without saying much, it’s a specific clinical condition) which makes it harder to break into.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Let’s say you take this leap and try it out and winds up not being the right fit. Is there a path back to the career you had before? Does the door totally close on you if you take a detour? If not, you have my permission to mess around with your career.

      1. should i apply?*

        I have been listening to the podcast The Happiness Lab and I just listened to an episode about how people extremely overestimate how happy additional pay makes them. And underestimate how much an impact a job that they enjoy impacts their overall well being. So my advice is to go for it, at a minimum apply, and find out how big of a paycut you are talking about.

    4. Bob_NZ*

      Permission granted ;)

      It’s your life and your career. You’re the expert on you. *You* get to set your path.

      As someone who has taken a few risks in her career (all of whom worked out, btw) I’d recommend at least a few months of living expenses set aside. I find there is extraordinary power in knowing they’re there even if you don’t need them.

      Best of luck to you :)

      1. Lizzie*

        You say you already have ulcers due to the stress. That is enough information for you about your current role. You also say that the promotion is taking you away from the things you value, and that you are miserable.
        Well done on having savings, that gives you a safety net- I reckon it is time to move from the job that is making your stomach bleed, and making you miserable. Your body and your mind have made their position clear! Best wishes to you

  59. LaceyLou*

    So, I made a mistake.

    One of my connections on LinkedIn passed on my resume to an internal recruiter for a job. In my research about the company, I came across someone in HR from the same national office (it’s a huge company), I’ll call him “John”, who coincidentally went to the same niche school as I did at the very same time in the very same department. I reached out to say hello with a message emphasizing that I had already spoken to someone and was only reaching out because of our crazy specific connection.

    Fast forward two weeks, I reached out to my referral checking in and she mentioned that she heard I’d already contacted John and that he’d be handling correspondence from that point forward. Yikes.

    I know I screwed up. I’m sure the job is a no go now, especially since there’s been no contact for an interview in three weeks, but I wonder if I can still salvage the relationship with my referrer? Do you guys think I should reach back out or just let it go entirely?

    1. Persephone Mongoose*

      I don’t understand why John is now handling all correspondence just because you reached out to him based on a very valid connection, especially when you specifically mentioned you’re already in contact with a recruiter. It sounds like some wires got crossed and would reach back out to the recruiter for clarification. You can offer an apology if you want, but I don’t think this was your fault. Treating the job as a no-go is probably for the best and you can treat it as a pleasant surprise if you’re still in the running.

      1. LaceyLou*

        The recruiter I reached out to about our connection hasn’t responded to me, but clearly told my referrer about my hello message. No recruiter has contacted me yet and after three weeks it seems likely they won’t.

        Ah well. Thanks for the response!

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      I don’t see that you did anything wrong here. Reaching out to a contact at a job you’re applying to is totally normal and expected.

      1. LaceyLou*

        That’s not what happened though to be clear. My contact gave my resume to a recruiter and I tried to make contact with someone else just out of excitement about our very coincidental connection through academia. I’m afraid the one who referred me thinks I was trying to go around the system. :/

        1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          I still think that’s totally normal! I think it’s completely bizarre that they would shut you out because you sent a note to a fellow alumn. The best advice is to always pretend you didn’t get the job so that if you hear back it’s a pleasant surprise, but I wonder if HR told your contact that they’d be moving forward with you so s/he should bow out of the process…

          1. LaceyLou*

            I didn’t think of that! Seems a bit too good to be true, but I admittedly tend to catastrophize and read “they’re upset with me!” in every email. It’s childish, but my brain is broken.

            This new perspective has calmed my anxiety down a bit. haha

    3. merope*

      Is it possible that John is the hiring manager for the position and that is why he is taking over? Also, I’m not clear why someone at your target company who is not in HR (since they passed your resume on to the internal recruiter) would be able to give you any useful information on the hiring process. Finally, although I am sure you know the norms for your field best, three weeks is not long enough to assume your application has been reviewed, let alone discarded.

      1. LaceyLou*

        No? John is a recruiter. I didn’t ask him for hiring information, I just reached out because we went to the same school and it was a crazy coincidence given the circumstances.

        My referrer is on the team I want to work on and is not a recruiter. They passed my resume on to one internally as a favor because we’re connected on LinkedIn and share interests.

    4. PollyQ*

      I don’t see where you made any mistake at all, nor do I think you’re suffering any negative consequences. Your referrer probably wasn’t going to be the one handling the hiring, and it sounds like all she did was let you know that John was the new point person going forward. This might even be something that would’ve happened even if you hadn’t reached out to him. As for the three-week wait, it’s well within the range of normal for job-hunting processes.

      To sum up, I think you’re totally fine, and I wouldn’t take any action at all (except for continuing the overall job search since there are never any guarantees with any application.)

      1. LaceyLou*

        I appreciate this! The job was reposted, but it’s only been between 3-4 weeks since the first job posting and my initial application. I’m hoping to at least get a chance to interview. It would be such a great fit! Still, all out of my hands for now.

        Thanks again!

  60. JustaTech*

    Question for folks in biotech: Is there any way to learn new techniques that your current company doesn’t use without moving to a more junior position at a new company?
    I’d like to learn lentivirus/CRISPR but that’s just not something we do where I work. I can read all the papers and whatnot, but most jobs are going to expect hands-on experience, right?

    1. irene adler*

      There are classes in various biotech techniques.
      Might look at local universities- including university extension courses too. Might also see if they allow one to take grad level courses- without having to formally apply for a degree program.
      Also, might look into companies that offer day or short -term (2-5 day) classes for professionals in a specific lab technique. Course you might have to wait until COVID restrictions pass before these are offered. I’ve seen Thermofisher and the like offer these classes. Some are such that you’d have to travel to them – like if you lived other than in San Diego or Rockville, MD- or whereever they offer them.
      It will take a bit of digging to find these. Might google variations of “CRISPR classes/instruction/learning/lab training” and the like. Also, these types of classes aren’t cheap. Be aware.

      1. irene adler*

        Forgot. Also look at the on-line sites for trade magazines: MD&DI, Lab Manager and the like. They may lead you to places that offer lab skills training for what you wish to learn.

  61. Doing Two Jobs*

    What is normal for checking in with your office when people have been out sick with COVID?
    The person I work most closely with found out they had COVID after a week of claiming it was just a cold and has been MIA all week. (Thankfully not in contact with people in person outside of a few traceable incidents and doesn’t look like anyone else go sick.) I have no idea when they might be back or how sick they are to know if it is mildish or they need oxygen. As far as I can tell never put up an auto away on their email and am debating getting permission to hack into their email to do that. At this point them being out isn’t a big deal but I am not sure how long I need to do both jobs which impacts some of my planning on longer term to do list items. If they are sick sick and going to be out for weeks I would want to start some projects sooner given time constraints (and spacing out my OT more evenly) that could wait two weeks but not necessarily a month.

    1. meteorological spring*

      What does your manager / their manager say? Can you just tell your manager a version of your last 2 sentences?

      1. Doing Two Jobs*

        Also out with COVID — it is lovely times. I at least have been getting updates on the boss’s condition and communication from them for anything huge but really trying not to bother them. And there isn’t a higher level because we aren’t that large and we are both fairly high up to start with.

      2. Haha Lala*

        Is there an IT person, an HR person or another manager on a similar level as your manager that’s out? There could definitely be emails/voicemails being missed right now and it’d be in the company’s best interest to have someone checking those. And if someone else agrees that you should check you coworkers emails, then at least it’s not as much “hack in” as it is “save face for the company.”

        1. pancakes*

          I broadly agree, but don’t think there’s any downside to checking in with the person who’s out first. If they do have a mild to moderate illness, responding to an email or two is well within their capabilities. I think it would be odd to assume they’re totally incapacitated and go around them from the start. Two Jobs might send something along the lines of, “Hi, I hope you’re doing well. I’m just reaching out to ask whether you’ve had a chance to set up an out-of-office reply? I can take of that if you haven’t but wanted to check with you first. I’m also wondering if you have any sense of when you might be back. If you’re resting and don’t see this until later that’s fine, of course. If I don’t hear back within a couple days I’ll get IT to set up the out-of-office.”

  62. MidBoss*

    One of my reports called my boss and sobbed about his workload being too heavy, which he has never raised with me. Here’s the thing: he’s dealing with less than HALF the workload than anybody else on the team. We both presume he’s dealing with some mental wellness issues, and are working with HR to support him through that.

    I welcome ideas on how to address that completely inaccurate assumption, while we’re all remote. It indicates he really doesn’t listen in our weekly stand ups. There are a dozen people who would LOVE his low workload. (I’ve campaigned for a long time for more people: there’s no money). TIA.

    1. meteorological spring*

      There’s a bit to unpack and you might look at the issues this way:

      1) Calling your boss with something he should have brought to you – you can address this directly and say “please come to me with this sort of thing first.” Are you also having regular 1:1s with him? If not, you should.

      2) It can be true that his workload is half that of anyone else’s, and also be true that his workload is too high FOR HIM. I don’t think it’s helpful to look at this as ‘completely inaccurate assumption of someone dealing with some mental wellness issues.’ I think you need to look at it as, this is the work his role needs to get done, and is he able to do it? If not, can anything be done about that? It might just not be a good fit for him.

      3) Curious, what sort of support are you working with HR on? Did he ask for it or are you basing this on your presumptions? A sobbing phone call is obviously a sign things aren’t good, but a lot of people are having a lot of difficulty with focus, stamina, burnout etc. the last 12 months and I’m not sure how helpful it is to frame this as “mental wellness issues.” I don’t want to derail on this, I think #1 and #2 are key here, but just to say, handle this part delicately.

    2. irene adler*

      Hoping you have documented the actual workload per report-especially for the one who contacted your boss.

      (Gotta ask: what was the point of the call? To ask for less work? )

      Would there be any value to coaching him directly on his tasks? Ask him to walk you through how he does his work to see why it seems to be so ‘heavy’ for him. Or maybe this report needs to ‘shadow’ one of your other reports for a spell. Not as a punishment, but as a way to learn how the rest of the group manages their work. To pick up skills/techniques to apply to his workload.

    3. MidBoss*

      Thanks @meteorological spring and @irene adler – very helpful points. He compared his workload to others on the Boss-call (i.e. I HAVE TOO MUCH, IRENE DOESN’T DO WHAT I DO … when Irene actually does more – a LOT more. So, yes – framing the workload for him is useful, but when he resents coworkers … not sure how to give context that is useful and healthy.

      He’s struggled all year and has a terrible home situation. We’ve had some mental health issues in the past (awol for a month, no medical proof “I knew what I needed: I needed the forest”).

      HR = we’ve connected him with EAP in the past. He’s underperforming and we gave him space for that as we knew the home situation wasn’t good.

      Point of the Boss call was to complain about me being unreasonable, then outlined 2 situations where Boss said “but those are completely reasonable” (1. No, you can’t hand over this basic query that comes in one a month and takes 2 minutes to answer to a manager: YOU need to answer it as YOU have the relationship and this doesn’t need escalation. 2. Can you summarise handover of the thing you hate to give to the new person – he resented the need to handover)

      2. NotaPirate*

        Yeah you guys gave him a lot of chances. You cant be AWOL for a month. That’s a situation and a half. I don’t think he’s going to work out. He just went behind your back to complain to your boss about you, why are you defending him??? It’s time to let him go. Start the PIP and stick to it!

      3. KoiFeeder*

        Ah, you’re my brother’s boss.

        If he doesn’t see Irene doing the exact same tasks that he does in the exact same manner/order that he does, he will simply not believe that Irene could be dealing with a heavier workload than he is. If he doesn’t agree with you, he will assume you’re unreasonable because your rationale isn’t exactly the same as his. I can’t tell you what he wants or what will be useful in handling it, but I certainly wouldn’t blame you for PIPing and firing him.

    4. PX*

      As even Alison has answered, at a certain point, empathy ends and you need to ask yourself, is this the right person for the job. Because it really sounds like he isnt, and while he may have challenges, he still needs to get the job done.

      So consider that. And imagine your life if you had an employee who did their full workload, and the impact that would have on you and the rest of the team…

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Leave of absence?

      I have to say, are your weekly standups, actually done standing? If I am forced to stand for periods of time my attention wanders. It’s a strain for my legs and back.

      I agree with others who are saying PIP.

  63. Papa's Got a Brand New Job*

    Over the past month I’ve had three stages of interviews, prepared the heck out of it, and got a ‘yes’ this afternoon! I am so, so delighted.

    30% pay increase; WFH full time; and I get to pursue my interests and grow my knowledge in this area that I really care about.

  64. Money Isn't Everything*

    I probably have decision to make this upcoming week and am struggling with the best option. I know I have to make the decision that is best for me, but would welcome other peoples’ thoughts if you don’t mind.

    I am currently in a job that I enjoy, but it is draining. I am working 60 hour weeks, on average, and my big boss is a huge micromanager. My next big project will be working directly with him and I am dreading it. The long hours have no end in sight. I’ve suggested some options to lighten the load and have been told they don’t think that necessary. It is important to note that I am paid well and, overall, treated well. I don’t enjoy being micromanaged (who does?!) and the long hours are seriously draining me.

    Sigh. So, I started looking for other options.

    Well, I have a final interview this week with the CEO of another company and they’ve told me that it is a rubber stamp interview and the position is mine. I did some research into the CEO and found a number of reviews about them that are pretty strong. Mostly calling them a narcissist and talking about how poor of a manager they are. I would not be reporting to the CEO in the new job, but would have a dotted line to them. I know Glassdoor and other reviews should be taken lightly and I plan on asking some about it during this final interview – along the lines of asking about turnover, how promotions and bonuses are handled, the CEO’s approach to conflict and management.

    Career wise, this new position would be a lateral move; however, money wise they’re offering me about $70k more base salary than I make now and a $50k bonus potential on top of that. We are talking serious tax bracket changes.

    The question for me becomes, is it better to stay with the devil I know or take a chance with this new organization and new CEO? What would you do?

    1. Foxgloves*

      Take the chance. Those salary changes are HUGE, and if you get answers that give you positive feelings to those (very sensible!) sounding questions in the interview, I think you should go for it. If you’d have another manager as well as the CEO who is a decent person, then you’d also have an ally/ bit of protection from the CEO themselves. The devil you know sounds AWFUL and I’d be taking any chance I could to jump ship personally!

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Take it! You’re already miserable, worst case scenario you end up miserable at the new place but you’ll at least have a buttload more money to show for it. There’s also the chance that you end up happy, which you have zero chance of having happen at your current job.

    3. Yellow Warbler*

      Definitely take it. Being overworked with more money means you have the option to hire out chores and household management, which gives you more time and headspace to tolerate the workload.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        And/or build up enough of a financial safety net by working there for a year or so in order to have the freedom to resign if you need to and continue to look for a better opportunity.

        Remember that strongly negative reviews are usually written by people angry or upset at how things went, and not necessarily a reflection of everyone’s experiences.

        TBH, working a 60 hr week indefinitely because “they don’t think it’s necessary” to lighten your load or staff appropriately is not treating you well. I’m sure they’re happy to have you and probably say great things about you and give you perks or whatever, but they’re not willing to do anything to reduce a crushing workload.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Good point about the safety net. If you can OP bank the extra so that net grows fast. The safety net would be a proactive step to protect your best interests if the new CEO is a flying AH.

    4. I would take a chance on the new situation*

      You’re right, money isn’t everything, there’s also the burnout and the prospect that your unsustainable situation at the current job will continue until you crack. My vote would be to try the new job.

  65. Bob*

    I like that the you may also like has the (likely most recent) “here’s a bunch of help finding a new job” article linked. I assume those recommendations are automatically generated.
    One thing i have often wondered is if Alison’s books and other material available for purchase are updated since original publication?

  66. Ex Pat Re Pat*

    Does anyone have experience with repatriation? I have been working in another country for 3 years (been with the company for 6 years) and have been talking to management about returning home within the next year. The main contact I am working with has said more than once that the “repatriation process is more difficult”. What are people’s experience with this? For context, I am a SME/individual contributer.

    1. Temperance*

      Are you American, or is this referencing another country?

      If you’re a US citizen, you can generally come and go as you please unless you renounced citizenship or somehow lost it.

      1. Ex Pat Re Pat*

        Not an American but in the US currently. The comment was more about the logistics of the company finding a job for me that I actually want and then readjusting to that job. ( I am here on a work visa!)

        1. LDF*

          Then doesn’t sound like a repatriation issue per se, just that your company has fewer jobs in your country.

    2. It happens*

      Kinda depends on how experienced your company is with repatriating people. I was an expat at a company that should not have had any international operations- just didn’t click with the core competencies. A good company, good people, but not good at this.

      Logistics: They will have a package, no doubt, that will help you move and relocate. What mine promised was a little more useful than what they delivered, and they miscommunicated some of the money stuff, but it was fine. (Note, it was fine because I was an executive so the amount of money wasn’t that big a deal to me, ymmv.) They should keep doing your taxes and tax equalization until the foreign tax stuff rolls off of your return. Essentially, it should not cost you anything to return to your home country.

      Business: this is the hard part. Does anyone back in the home office know what you’ve been doing? Do you have a sponsor who can talk about your work to their higher up peers? Do you have peer connections to help you re-acclimate to changes in the corporate culture/strategy/operations/personnel since you left? Can you join some cross-functional committees to get back into the mix, meet people, and show your value? Is there a specific job for you to go back to? Is there someone you’d really like to work with? Does any of your expat experience give some valuable insight into a broader problem the company has?

      The re-entry is harder because you’ve been ‘absent’ for three years, things change, new favorites emerge, the unspoken rules adjust. If you have time before the re-entry, start making all the internal contacts you can- ask about strategy, challenges, and people. Use these to build your peer network and higher exec visibility and interviewing. They spent a lot of money to send you away and will spend more to bring you back- make it clear to them that both are valuable to them.

      Good luck and welcome home!

      1. Ex Pat Re Pat*

        Thank you! That’s super helpful!

        Thankfully I have a very visible and specialized role so the mothership is definitely aware of my contributions…. they’ve also restructured /twice/ since I’ve been gone and turned over a big percentage of the management team, so I’m nervous to make the change professionally even though it is definitely the right move personally.

    3. Sam*

      Are you thinking/concerned more about the idea of “reverse culture shock”, as opposed to repatriation? Repatriation to me is more of a technical term.

  67. Savannah*

    I am really struggling to work well with my coworker and it’s affecting our whole team dynamics in a bad way and I worry about my own ageism. I started with this team the week after everyone started working from home so about a year in, in a field I have about 10 years of experience in. While we’ve never worked face to face I have gotten to know our 6 person team well. ‘Sally’ is one of my peer trainers, doing the same or similar work as well along with our other trainer, ‘Tom’.

    Sally has been working with this team for about 25 years in some capacity or another and has not updated much about how she works or how she expects others to work in that time which has lead to an enormous amount of accommodations over the years. She doesn’t use our office email or outlook calendar when our main job is event planning and education trainings. Because of this half an hour of each of our biweekly team meetings is taken up going over Sallys paper calendar and making sure it lines up with the communal Outlook. She will get easily confused and upset if there has been a change and she wasn’t made aware of it.

    Sally also doesn’t have access to our shared drive but is responsible for drafting updated versions of last years trainings so keeps her own system and it often causes confusion between different drafts. The result is that we are continually making the same edits we did from years past to update the final copy of the training, sometimes after it has already gone out to higher ups or the public for review.

    Finally last year we implemented a diversity and equity screening tool for all our training materials, something I am heavily invested in and something Sally has fought me on at every step of the way and continues to complain about and try to get around implementing, even when called out in larger multi-departmental meetings/presentations.

    All of these factors have really clouded my opinion about her and lead me to be very impatient with her and I’m already dealing with a east coast (me)/west coast (her and everyone else on my team) cultural clash here. Tom, the other trainer is equally fed up and we have a lot of one on one conversations about our frustrations, especially when we are blamed for her not coming to meetings or making sure we send reminders to her personal email. However Sally is beloved by many in the larger department, has a ton of political capital and is well into her 80s. Has anyone navigated coworkers like this? I can’t continue to be at BEC with her but I also feel like its really unsustainable to continue working like this, wasting many hours, and I’m just not sure how to approach management.

    1. Another JD*

      Talk to your boss. Tell her Sally doesn’t use the office programs or have access to the shared drive, outline the problems it’s causing, then go from there. If boss reports that Sally doesn’t have to change, then so be it. How can you minimize her impact? Can you send pdfs of the office calendar the morning before the biweekly meeting, then let her figure out the differences on her paper calendar then report the differences? Can you implement a draft numbering/dating system so that you’re not crossing versions?

      1. Savannah*

        My boss knows about these issues and is almost always very accommodating to Sally. We’ve discussed her impact on our work, especially on the diversity push back and I get a lot of ‘well she’s from another time and everyone is on their own journey’. Tom and I are being more vocal on the general work issues as well and I’m somewhat refusing to send her emails to her private email address, which is a joint account shared by her husband (even though we deal with FERPA protected information) I can think about a draft numbering system, but she is very possessive over that process, thanks!

        1. The New Wanderer*

          Ugh, your boss. Catering to one person’s whims at the expense of the team.

          I would push as much of the labor onto Sally (and the boss) as possible. She doesn’t use the shared calendar? Then she’s responsible, on her own time, to reconcile her calendar with the team calendar. There should not be tons of work by a whole team of people to cater to her paper copy. She can ask the boss to help her if needed or if she gets upset.

          She doesn’t use the shared server but owns a document and all its revisions? Then her copy is always the final copy, mistakes and all. All the work and rework of the team is being wasted with the confusion and lack of management of the current process. OR, optimally, the document is assigned to someone who will keep it on a server with a version system in place and Sally can get a local copy if she wants to contribute.

          Finally, no personal email addresses should be allowed for work purposes (protected information to a shared personal account?? what a mess that would be). Since she has a personal address, she can’t be so unfamiliar with the process to warrant an exception to having an office account. So, until she gets one, all the ones for her are sent to her boss, who can be the one responsible for reminding her or for breaking FERPA by emailing her personal address.

    2. Ashley*

      You are making me feel better about my 70+ co-worker who at least uses email, but has many outdated processes and practices. Heaven help you if you touch one of her documents on the shared driver even though you must to do your job. Thankfully my co-worker has managed to annoy most of us at some point so we actively work to avoid them. While our boss knows the situation they aren’t actually willing to change it but also intervene and work directly with problem co-worker more frequently to save us.

    3. 8675309*

      TBH, it’s probably best she does not have access; I had a coworker who completely messed up documents, calendars, deleted an entire drive with sub folders and resources (!!!!).

      She should get a printout of the shared calendar, and update her docs as all else is in there.
      Every. Single. Document. Should have the version number, last saved date and user embedded as well as DRAFT watermark. See Google on how to do this.
      Final docs ONLY come from and are distributed from a FINAL folder which itself has restricted access.
      This isn’t in reaction to her, it just makes sense that there is one Owner of materials.
      Good luck!!!

      1. Savannah*

        Ahh at your coworker! Nightmare for sure. Sally is technically the owner of the materials for the training so I doubt I can implement that system until she leaves, but that is basically what I did at the last job. Everything was very centralized and here it is not- I suspect she has a paper system because occasionally she scans in written edits for us to finalize.

    4. Ins mom*

      Oh how painful! Not much advice but lots of sympathy from me. Where is your manager in all of this? I’m old and not too technologically proficient and when I learned to text a couple years ago my snarky son said “welcome to the 20 th century”.

    5. Son of Sally*

      She’s beloved by many, has tons of political capital, and is 15-20 years past customary retirement age? My advice is to wait it out. Sounds like it won’t go on for much longer, and there doesn’t seem to be anything you can do about it in the meantime.

      I’m 61 years old and make a special point to adopt all the latest technical tools available in my job, and keep my vocabulary full of the current jargon. It’s my attempt to defend myself against ageism. I know there are still young people working here who assume anyone my age is useless, but I find opportunities to prove them wrong when I can.

  68. Help*

    1. I need to take 4+ months medical leave, but have some flexibility about when it starts. The timing is terrible, but I can’t delay a full year (to when the timing would be OK).
    2. I have ~2x workload; about 1/2 is supervising a team.
    3. I realise I *hate* the supervising. I want to delegate that (either to one new person, or many existing people / disband the reporting structure). (We have no money for a new person.)
    4. I want to keep the other stuff.
    Boss doesn’t know about #1 yet, but likely won’t be too surprised. She’s got an inkling of #3.

    What order would you have those discussions with your boss?

    1. Weekend Please*

      I would start with #1. The fact that you need to take a leave of absence makes it more urgent to figure out how to delegate your work. While discussing that you can also talk about needed to redistribute some of the tasks permanently because of #2. Then you could mention #3 (you would prefer the managing aspect be the part to be removed).

  69. Jungle24*

    Hi! Could use just a little bit of resume advice…
    I have about six years of post-undergrad experience in the same industry. During that time, I’ve had 3 different roles at three different organizations. One of those roles is my current job. 
    My issue is that I’m now finishing up a graduate program and as a requirement of that program, have to complete a 5-month internship. This internship is at a very well-known organization and I’d love to include it on my resume but I’m just not really sure how to incorporate it and stick to one page. I could go to two, but I don’t feel like I’m far enough along in my career to justify that just yet. 
    As of now, my resume fits snuggly on one-page, but if I added this internship under “experience” it would go to two pages. I did think that an alternative would be just having a bullet under “education” but that may not do it justice either. Any advice? 

    1. meteorological spring*

      Is everything on your resume 100% relevant to the job you’re applying for? Is the oldest stuff still relevant? Can you shave off some bullets from some jobs to make room for the internship, without removing a whole job? You should tailor a version of your resume for each job.

      I wouldn’t put it under experience because then you can’t talk about what you did at the internship.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Can you eliminate one bullet point from each of your past two jobs to make room for two lines about your internship?

      RE: Two page resumes – I may be in the minority but I have no problem with a resume spilling over to a second page. I’d rather have a few lines on a second page (so long as the page break is positioned well) than have to squint to read text that’s clearly been crammed in to fit on just one. Especially now that most things are just read on my computer screen in PDF form, I think the two page thing is less important.

      1. Jungle24*

        Ah all good points. I may be able to make shave off a bullet here or there., although my first job experiences are already pretty lean. I’ll try and retool it thought with that in mind. Also good to know about the second page, it’s a good point. Thanks all!

    3. PX*

      What achievements do you have/will you have from this internship? I get that in some cases you just need the brand recognition, but having recently reworked my resume, being absolutely ruthless about only listing value add/achievements was a good way to get rid of a lot of filler.

      So does everything on your resume need to stay there?

    4. Frankie Derwent*

      I’m not a hiring manager but you say yout resume is already lean. If it was a choice between adhering to the one page rule or highlighting an important and impressive internship, I’d say pick the latter. A few lines into a second page in a more readable font size would probably be fine unless the hiring manager is unreasonable, in which case, you wouldn’t want to work for her.

  70. cbh*

    I thought everyone would get a laugh out of this situation. I had social distancing drinks (yeah warmer weather) with a former coworker/ good friend the other day. I am posting with her permission.

    My friend Ann and I worked for a company that produced a product that could be used across the board in many departments. Our department assigned everyone to a group based on our area of expertise (marketing, legal, finance) and the group would help implement the product based on our expertise and client’s needs. Ann was a Rockstar in her roll; always had amazing reviews; clients always requested her. The company also had little contests to help with team building, sales pitches and bringing in new customers etc. Ann would take these contests on with gusto. While her connections didn’t lead to someone purchasing our product, it did lead to a network of people who knew someone that did purchase.

    Anyway, we had a challenging client who could do no wrong and was a big account for our company. Despite Ann following written directions, the client was mad about the cost of our services, made up a scenario and Ann was let go for (in my opinion) a political reasons. Many managers and former clients were upset but those at the top wanted to keep this big client. While Ann had already been job searching and exploring a career change, she was hurt that a company she had been loyal to for 15 years wouldn’t even let her defend herself. Ann’s personal budget didn’t let her explore legal options. She let it go with an it’s-for-the-best outlook. Luckily she was able to take some much desired time off and found a way better job within a few weeks. I have since moved on from implementation to a different department. While I don’t scream it from the rooftops, people are aware that Ann and I keep in touch. I often pass along messages of missing you to Ann.

    Anyway this has been a crazy year and suddenly everyone is realizing the value of connections and networking Ann brought to the team. The company is ok financially but struggling. Corners are being cut, etc. They reached out to Ann. Ann told me privately and professionally that while she misses the team she has moved on she has no desire to work with the company anymore. Now I have the company coming to me (!) to pass on messages to Ann. I keep telling them Ann is aware that you are trying to reach her, but I am staying out of this. Now all of the sudden those big wigs that let her go are getting nervous in that many of Ann’s connections bought the product because of Ann; Ann’s no longer here so these potential clients are exploring other options in addition to Company (ie company is not being viewed as the only option) In the meantime…. that big client arrogantly burned a separate bridge with us and Ann was just offered her dream position in the company she went to after being let go.

    4. Home Away from Work*

      Plus, your company showed everyone that they have absolutely NO loyalty to their own employees. (Wouldn’t let her defend herself?! I’d be out looking at this point too!)

      1. cbh*

        Home Away from Work…. it’s funny you said this. There was a little more to the story that covers your comment; I was trying to keep my post shorter rather than the length of a novel.

        The company is smallish family owned, but big enough. I’d say maybe 100 employees. While the contracts are all over the world I’d say a 80% are in our geographical region where the headquarters are. When I say family company it truly is. The original owners (OO) made a point to know everyone that worked for them, touch base etc. In truth they never would have let arrogant client get away with what they did and they certainly would have never let Ann leave or feel undervalued.

        Original Owners children (OC) were hard working. They were required to learn the ropes, etc. While the OC were groomed for the position at an early age, they started on the bottom and worked their way up. When OO retired they held control of the company as a silent owner and put OC in charge. Most of OC ran the company like OO but there were two children who let power go to their head. Sadly these two dealt with Ann’s situation.

        OO was aghast when they heard what happened and stepped right in. They made things right with Ann, apologized among other things I’m not privy too. However OO is now watching these two OCs like a hawk. OC has been knocked off a peg, but they are still in control. I’m not saying their evil. OC actually does really great things for the company, but I think they were give a major dose of reality.

        From what I’ve observed (nothing concrete) OC is doing what they can to turn things around. Like I said the company is fine and is on an upswing now that vaccines are out for COVID, but there is very little financial safety net. I think OC is doing what they can to bring things back to prepandemic levels. They are learning that staff is loyal to OO; OC has not earned that level of respect yet. Given that OC is trying to rebuild their reputation and Ann (an other employees) aren’t as forthcoming with contests, contacts and networking they are facing a harsh reality as the “guy at the top”.

        Side note Ann is still in touch with OO but more on a social side and she has set a boundary that talking shop is not allowed when meeting up.

        1. Home Away from Work*

          Sadly, some people don’t realize how much some of their employees contribute until .. they are no longer there to contribute. It’s another example like an awesome admin – they make it look so easy… and then they leave

  71. Princess Trachea-Aurelia Belaroth*

    Has anyone assisted with/planned the implementation of 1-to-1, student-assigned laptops at k-12? My school system has really bungled the whole thing from beginning to end, seemingly making everything up from scratch without input on what other schools have done or what would work, not to mention failing to invest in the staff and equipment to actually run the program. We are now in the actual planning stages of collecting computers for the summer (which my supervisor and I have been pushing to begin since August, but we are mere library workers doing all our building tech’s work, so no one listens to us), so I’m just trying to let all the disorganization wash over me and not get too apoplectic about it.

    I could use advice, but I’d also just like to hear how implementation and roll-out went for you, and any interesting/crazy stories about it. Also, if anyone has advice about knowing exactly how to do something right but having no input on it, I’ll take that as well.

    1. NotaPirate*

      Pre-covid and many years ago now, I worked in IT for a high school program. Students were entitled to a laptop while in the school building, we had a check out procedure of trading ID for laptop so if you didn’t return it we had all your info. Boss kept promising the ID scanner would be fixed and we’d just scan to check out instead of all this trade cards nonsense but it didn’t happen in the year I worked there. We never had enough functional laptops at a time. Kids were constantly breaking or losing chargers. We finally implemented the no charger rule, they had to come back and trade to a new one and we charged in house only. Which as the laptops get older doesn’t work at all, they can’t make it 8hrs on one charge. There’s definitely differences in how people treat laptops they don’t own, we had so many times to talk about how to carry a laptop (not by the screen and open!), whether you should have food near it (don’t drink next to it while your friends are roughhousing on the other side! and dont eat cheetos above it!), and what’s appropriate use (not a baseball bat!).

      I know you can’t get the roll out going now, but can you work on implementing policy for them? You want like kid friendly rule book as well as the parent level book. Maybe pictures? No food No drink No throwing etc. What’s going to be the policy for broken ones, or ones needing a new charger. Basic training on how to use software, turn on, charge, connect to wifi, connect to schools webpage, all of that you can write/record now hopefully. Little kids a tutorial video is going to be easier than numbered lists, but parents in a hurry trying to troubleshoot might prefer a list.

      Also, are you installing software on them? Or locking them down at all? That can be tested out on a laptop now and figure out the best way to install. Remote access software like anydesk is well worth it just so you dont have to go find the computer to fix it.

      Also, figure out how to sort them, by classes for teacher to pass out? Or by family units in the school for pickup?

    2. Humble Schoolmarm*

      We started 1 to 1 in September and it’s been… enh… We have a shared google doc recording which student has been assigned which chromebook and the general condition. Students have to leave it at school unless their families have signed a permission form agreeing to pay for the chromebook if it gets damaged at home and to make sure it’s coming back and forth every day. The biggest downside is that last year the wifi had a lot of filters and blocked sites. This year it’s a free for all and really hard for a lot of students to close them during instruction and use them for classwork instead of Krunker, Among Us, or what ever the kids are all playing this week.

  72. Whhhy*

    My boss told me something that I found strange and kind of insulting. I’m not sure what her intentions were.

    My job was advertised as paying between $11 and $13 an hour. I was offered the position at $12/hour and took it because I need a job and there’s a pandemic, but I’m way underemployed considering my education and experience. My boss randomly let me know that I get paid $1 more than my coworkers (they’re in different positions than me). She said I absolutely couldn’t tell them because they’d be furious, and she explained that she offered me the extra dollar because it’s hard to keep anyone in this role (the past couple people either left or were fired within a few weeks to several months), because my job requires a lot more work, and because she knew I was going to be a rockstar at it after my interview (she keeps gushing over how well I’m doing and saying that other people are telling her I’m awesome).

    Why would she only offer $12 instead of $13 if the role is hard to keep filled and she knew I would do well in it? I’m extra unhappy about the pay now.

    Is she trying to make me feel grateful about getting $12/hour so I stay longer than other people have?

    1. CatCat*

      It seems strange and insulting for the reasons you state, but also because of her saying you can’t tell your coworkers “because they’d be furious.” Coworkers are allowed to talk about their pay! And if it makes them furious, well, maybe that’s because it should if they’re being underpaid.

    2. cbh*

      I think there are a few different scenarios going on.
      1) she should of never given you information (even indirectly) regarding what someone else makes. It sounds like she is trying to cut things off at the pass with you discussing your salary with coworker
      2)agree if everything you say is accruate, she should of offered you $13. She’s looking at it as she saved the company money on your salary but at the same time (again indirectly) insulted you
      3)however long you stay is up to you. You need to to do what’s best for your career, not what boss thinks is best for the company.

      All I can offer is to hang in there, get yourself situated, read Alison’s advice about asking for a raise when appropriate and keep applying to jobs that best fit your goals

    3. Just Another Manic Millie*

      “Why would she only offer $12 instead of $13 if the role is hard to keep filled and she knew I would do well in it?”

      She offered $12 because she thought there was a chance that you would accept the offer. And you did. It’s possible that she said to herself, “If Whhhy hadn’t accepted $12, I would have had to go to $13, but luckily I didn’t have to. And now TPTB are happy with me because I saved them some money.”

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think sometimes managers just say weird stuff and you will drive yourself batty trying to interpret it. Many years ago, I got a very substantial raise one year into my job. My boss at the time advised me not to talk about it with my coworkers. I was new to the workforce at the time, having only worked at public jobs where pay is, well, public. At the time, I was super insulted and knew I have every right to discuss my pay with anyone I darn well wanted.

      However, what I later realized, was that what she was trying to say (in mind you a rather bad fashion) was that some of my coworkers were super toxic about raises and pay and had they found out I was getting a raise after just one year, they would have made my life difficult and complained constantly about it. Both of them were eventually let go, but advice was meant to protect me a bit from that. Anyway, you’ll drive yourself bonkers trying to understand why your boss says what she says. I’d let it go.

    5. D3*

      Five bucks says she offered ALL of you $12 and gave you all the same speech so you’ll be grateful and consider yourself the lucky one.

  73. Bored new hire*

    I started a new job a little over 3 months ago as a program coordinator at a nonprofit, though a more corporate feeling one than I’ve worked at in the past.

    I’m feeling frustrated with it. I’m around six years into my career (ten years out of college) and was hoping that I could grow here, because the field is more technical than where I’ve worked in the past. The job description was a little vague, but it was calling for 5-7 years of experience and a masters degree a plus (which I don’t have).

    I expected to take a step back in autonomy because my background isn’t technical. But I feel like I’m the go to person for admin tasks across a bunch of different projects (sending calendar invites, soo many calendar invites, sending agendas, creating powerpoints or other documents under very specific instruction). I may not have a background in the content area we’re working in, but I have a lot of experience structuring similar projects… but no one seems to expect me to have ideas, they look a little puzzled when I try to talk. Everyone is nice and says they’re happy with my work, but I also feel condescended to a lot of the time. I don’t feel like I have ownership over anything and I also don’t have one manager I can get to know because I’m split across all these different projects so I feel like no one is going to take the time to give me more challenging work.

    Is this just a bad fit? Are my expectations off? If I want to get more technical experience should I try to stick it out?

    1. Goose*

      In my experience at NPs, program coordinator roles are generally administrative It seems odd that they expereince they were asking for is so different than what’s actually required. Is the pay entry level as well?

      1. Bored new hire*

        I guess when I’ve been a coordinator in the past, I had plenty of admin stuff to do for the program, but I was also involved in planning, creating resources, meeting with relevant people. This feels like everything I do is under the direction of someone else and I’m not expected to have thoughts about the work much.

        The pay is pretty decent for a non-leadership nonprofit position– $60k in a medium cost of living area.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      It sound like you’re expectations are off. In the interview process, how did they describe the role and responsibilities? Is what you’re doing significantly different from that? It’s one thing if they said you’d be doing mostly technical/program work but you’re instead doing admin work versus if they said you’d be mostly administrative.

      Take this next part with a grain of salt: It sounds like the organization hired someone to handle the admin tasks because they needed someone to handle the administrative work. It doesn’t sound like they’re looking to you to provide support on the project design, because that’s not what they hired you to support. I recognize that you have experience designing projects, but a few factors to consider:

      1) You’re 3 months in to this job and don’t have content expertise. Taken together, it seems likely you don’t have the necessary background and expertise to provide helpful feedback at this point, so it is a little odd that you’re trying to provide input.
      2) This is a more corporate feel non-profit than you’re used to, so there may be a cultural adjustment for you. This organization may have a culture of staff staying in their lane more.

      Now, none of this is to say that you need to stay or to counter your feeling that this is a bad fit (I’m wondering if it is a bad fit), but I also wonder if you might benefit from sticking around for a year or two, to have some time to grow and develop skills.

      1. Bored new hire*

        In terms of point 1– It’s not that I’m trying to weigh in on issues that are content specific. But, for instance, one of the things I’m doing is a webinar series. My background is in education, so I sometimes have ideas about how to organize information or add structure to the trainings.

        Or thoughts on what might make sense in terms of timelines for non- content specific work. I’m fine if people tell me something isn’t going to work, and I’m not pushy or even sharing that many ideas. But I’m used to operating as part of a team and having my own role, not just assisting someone with theirs in ways that don’t challenge me at all.

    3. aiya*

      Hm, I think that the expectations of a coordinator are different when you’re at a large corporate-style non profit vs. a smaller nonprofit. Having worked under the Coordinator title at different nonprofits before, I agree with the others that generally speaking, coordinators tend to be pretty much admins for the team (especially in your case where you’re supporting several different stakeholders). At smaller nonprofits, coordinators tend to do a blend of admin and program production work, but at larger nonprofits, coordinators tend to only do admin work but often support a larger staff. I recently interviewed for a coordinator role at a very established higher ed institution where the salary was also 60K, but again, the work was purely admin + some project coordination. So, I don’t think your duties are out of line given your title, but I do think it’s strange that this wasn’t laid out to you before they offered you the job/before you accepted the job. I know you said the job description was vague, but what was the interviewing process like? Did they lay out what the job would entail? If not, is there someone you can turn to now and ask for clarification?

    4. AnonPi*

      Unfortunately it has become a trend to rename admin roles as “project coordinators”, “program coordinators” and the like, which typically fell more in line with project management type work. I think because employers think it would sound more attractive, and those who took those roles felt having a “better title” would get them better pay or opportunities for jobs down the road. It’s caught on enough now that you definitely have to pay attention to the job descriptions to figure out what they want, and confirm during interviewing what they want. It sounds like you got the admin type role, although its weird they asked for a masters. And a lot of places do pigeonhole “admins” as not having valuable input and won’t listen to you (including where I work), and think it strange if you try to contribute. I would try talking to your manager to clarify what you thought this role was, find out your managers expectations of your role, and if there is opportunity to take on your own projects. If so then great, and hopefully they’ll give you better assignments. If not then I’d start looking for other work.

    5. Malika*

      Sometimes a role can be advertised to job seekers in one way, and presented to staff in another way. It’s usually a combination of chinese whispers and wishful thinking.
      The staff were probably yearning for someone to do the administrative heavy lifting, and that is what they expect you to do. Having ideas about the content of the administration is not what they were seeking, which is why you will get the weird looks. There can also be a tendency to see admins as the type of staff that should be seen and not heard. You are there to push the lever, not to think about the design of the lever.
      Having said that, these type of positions are not without hope. In these situations, ‘show don’t tell’ is far more effective. Having someone on the team walking around and repeatedly stating “I do more than the administration” just puts people on the defensive. It is far better to gradually acclimatize your colleagues to the idea that you can do more than calendaring.
      As people interact with you and you demonstrate a high capacity for your work, you start to be a respected part of the department. Together with networking and easing in moments of casual conversation you also start to build rapport with your colleagues. You then start to gradually introduce your ideas and opinions. People start to acclimatize to the idea of you having potential beside your admin skills. This gradual introduction need not take long. It can take the course of 1-2 months before you are able to show your true value.

  74. Fluffernutter*

    Any recommendations on the most useful coding languages to learn for marketing? There are so many that I would like to focus on what would be useful for the field I wish to enter.

    2. katz*

      I wouldn’t bother with coding languages unless you’re specifically interested in web site development. I would recommend getting very comfortable with Google Analytics for starters, and possibly Google Ads (formerly Adwords), as well as paid social media.

  75. Thank you notes*

    I connected my adult child with someone peripherally in my network for some career advice/job leads. My adult child followed up on the leads and sent thank you emails to my contact at the appropriate times in that process.

    I feel that I should send a thank you as well, since my contact was really doing a favor for me. (Obv. I already thanked him in the initial follow-up email; this would be “circling back” to thank him later in the process.) I feel weird about how to do this. I prefer to connect my child once and then step back from the process as much as possible – I certainly don’t want to be the hovering parent – but I also don’t want to be rude.

    This is a bit complicated because the job lead that was provided didn’t pan out (no surprise at all), but I want to be sure that any email from me is seen as a genuine thank you and not as a hidden push for more leads. I did thank my contact after our initial conversation, but I feel strange to just go radio silent now. In general, if someone does *me* a personal favor, I would thank them immediately and then thank them again afterward.

    1. HMJ*

      I would leave it, personally. You already thanked them once, it didn’t go anywhere, the circle is complete in my opinion.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’d leave this in your child’s hands. You thanked them once. I think that’s enough and you don’t want it too seem like your interfering too much in your kid’s job search.

  76. Fern*

    This is my first time on an employer-provided healthcare plan. Any tips to deal with the simmering (okay, healthily boiling) resentment of being told, “We made changes to your available plan options for the upcoming year, we’re framing it as a wonderful change that will make your healthcare better, also your costs are going up and your prescription coverage will change and we won’t share any more details for another month so in the mean time please enjoy sitting with this message wondering whether you’ll be able to meet your basic needs in a few months – we appreciate you and you’re welcome!”?

    I hate this.

    1. Banana Rama*

      I understand your feelings. But, please consider that as a self-employed contract worker I pay $1600 per month in premiums for me and my 20 yo adult child. It can always be so much worse. I too hate our health care system.

      1. Fern*

        Ooh. Thank you for that perspective. I’m very sorry.

        I understand health care sucks from all ends including the employer’s. What rankles me the most is just the way this was presented to us as a Good Thing as opposed to something that causes a ton of anxiety. It’s very hard to swallow and feels disingenuous.

    2. AnonPi*

      Totally had this pulled where I work. “Hey we’re changing our healthcare plan and it will be great! Here’s some numbers doesn’t this sound wonderful? And cost X will go down! Ignore the number there at the end that shows your overall cost going up though. Or that we’ll quit contributing to your HSA after the first few years.” Seriously, they did a whole powerpoint/excel show to a bunch of mostly scientists (and those who weren’t definitely knew what they were doing). I don’t know how they thought it would turn out well (there was much yelling). Then director stepped in and told us we were lucky to have insurance at all not to mention our jobs *hint hint*. So yeah we’re now stuck with a crappy high deductible plan that outside of our free yearly wellcheck, is only good for catastrophic injury/serious illness, won’t pay for prescriptions unless you go through their mail order company that charges $300 for a prescription that I can get for $10 at Walmart, etc.

      You’ll find ways to work around it. GoodRX is great for finding where to find prescriptions the cheapest (I get one prescription at Walgreens because it’s less than half the cost of everyone else, saving $600+ a year). If you find some routine bloodwork your doctor does costs a fair amount look for places that do it for free like health fairs that test cholesterol, blood sugar, etc. You can shop around for other more expensive things if its not urgent like xrays, catscans, ultrasounds, etc. It’s amazing how much costs can vary from one place to another. And be up front with your doctor. For instance if they want to prescribe a new med, and it costs a lot, ask about alternatives. Same with the pharmacy, they’ve offered suggestions for cheaper alternatives that I have called and asked my doctor about and got switched to those.

  77. aiya*

    what are some professional networking groups for new entry level marketing/advertising professionals?

    I recently switched industries from working in nonprofit to marketing. I am currently in a media planning role (mostly dealing with digital ads), but would like to network with others and learn about other types of marketing roles in the field. I am so new to the field that I don’t really know where to look.

    Any suggestions?

  78. NewMom*

    I just made the decision to become a stay at home mom for the foreseeable future. I’ll most likely be out of the workforce for 2-5 years, depending on our financial situation.

    What do I do with my LinkedIn profile? Currently, it says I still work at the job I just left, but I don’t want to keep that listed as my present occupation for the next few years (and I’m sure they don’t want that either). Do I just put the end date of my employment and leave it at that? Should I indicate what I’m doing on LinkedIn (“presently a homemaker”)? Presumably I wouldn’t need to touch my profile until I’m getting ready to work again but is there a proper “setting” for my profile?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Honestly, unless you used LinkedIn a lot (and I never have) I might just take it down. You’re not working and in 2 to 5 years, who knows what the landscape for LinkedIn will look like? Most critically, I wouldn’t leave your current job up without an end date, as that makes it look like you still work there. I don’t think saying you’re not working is something you need to add to LinkedIn, but maybe others know more about it then I do.

      1. SummerBreeze*

        She should absolutely keep it up if she’s planning on going back to work.

        LI has a very specific culture to it, the way every other social platform does. Best to check in with folks who use it regularly if you have questions about it :)

    2. PX*

      Industry dependent. Are you in a field where recruiters might reach out to you via LinkedIn? Do you actually use it for networking? Do you use it to stay current on industry news, people movement etc? Do you want to stay up to date on such things?

      A lot of people here tend to hate it, but if you are in an industry where it is used, and you want to stay somewhat current on what is going on so you have a smoother transition back to the workplace, why not keep it, put your current end date (definitely dont leave it up as that would imply you are still employed) and then simply use it for its intended purpose: networking. Especially if you plan on returning to the workforce, its usually good to maintain at least some kind of presence so you’re not starting completely from scratch.

      If you dont want all that, you can deactivate it while you are not working.

    3. Kw*

      I would put the employment end date and then change your tagline to something generic (eg Communications specialist, instead of Communications Coordinator at XYZ Company). Then just leave it up there even if you don’t use it much.

    4. SummerBreeze*

      Omg, please do not put “presently a homemaker” there!

      Just put your industry “Jane Doe, experienced program analyst”.

  79. 37.5 hour work week*

    Our company has a 37.5-hour work week which we have historically touted in our hiring process. All of our salaries/benefits are based on this (for example, i only need to use 7.5 vacation hours per day instead of 8, and we accrue them based on a 7.5-hour workday). Due to the nature of our work, COVID has been a very busy/stressful time for us, and most all of us have been working more than that, with the idea that someday we would go back to the 37.5-hour week. In a meeting this week it was announced that for my team and one other team only, they are considering a move to a 40-hour work week permanently, but with no change to our salaries/benefits. HR hasn’t approved it so it would be “informal”, but it was indicated that we would be expected to track and log hours of at least 40 per week. We’re all exempt but this still feels not great… we use this to attract people. It’s one of the things that attracted me. And there would be no adjustment to our salaries/benefits. Thoughts on pushback? I have a decent amount of pull, but I don’t know many of my peers well since I was hired on during COVID while we’ve all been remote. Any advice is appreciated.

    1. WellRed*

      I can’t really offer advice, except to say, while I wouldn’t like this change, it’s not necessarily shattering. The company shouldn’t have used this as a selling point (I say this as someone with a 37.5 workweek). It’s great, but it’s not uncommon, etc. I will also say, though, I get it about the lack of increase in salary/benefits. We lost two paid holidays when we were acquired so working two more days for same salary. It’s definitely annoying.
      OTH, if your company is open to a commensurate salary increase across the board or something similar, go for it! That’s the best way to handle it.

      1. WellRed*

        Just re-read your comment. I’d be far more annoyed by the tracking of my hours if this isn’t something I previously had to do. between that and the increase in hours, the company sounds like it’s starting to mistrust/undervalue its employees.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      This is a pay cut. You’re working 2.5 additional hours per week, that’s basically a 6% pay cut, or so. Personally, I would be super upset about this. I don’t know the legal ramifications of this, as you are exempt, but yeah, I would be super annoyed. This might be a situation where pushing back as a group is worth it. I would also consider framing it as a question, like, “So, when I take a day off, should I put down 7.5 hours or 8?” Because if they want you to use 8, they are also looking at a cut to vacation time. Not sure what to suggest really, but I’m super annoyed on your behalf.

      1. 37.5 hour work week*

        Yeah that’s kind of how I felt about it. Also it was a change from the message of “thanks everyone for pitching in during the pandemic”, and it now feels like “your reward for working hard is that you get to work more.”

    3. CatCat*

      I’d be super annoyed too. If you have staff meetings or other ways where everyone (including and especially your peers) can hear/see some questions about this, it seems reasonable of me for you to ask:

      * This is a 6.7% increase in our time base. Will we be seeing a corresponding increase in pay and other benefits like leave time?

      * What is the purpose of tracking and logging hours for exempt employees?

    4. Filosofickle*

      You’re losing $/hr AND losing a perk. That sucks!

      The pay cut part wouldn’t actually be my biggest objection — because I’ve typically been exempt I don’t really calculate pay that way — but it’s true it is one and that may be the most compelling pushback issue. My personal issue would be losing the perk. Having randomly started my career with two 37.5 jobs, I discovered later I really hate working 40 hours! Somehow just a half hour less each day feels a lot less onerous. I’ve never had it since then because in my field/location a sub-40-hour office is unheard of, so having that would be special to me. I would be deeply unhappy about losing that.

      Also agree that tracking/logging hours is an issue. (Recognizing my hatred of tracking systems is not entirely rational or practical.) One of the things I’ve run into in tracking environments is there needs to be a “paperwork” type code for tasks like filling out time sheets. Depending on the system it can take 15 minutes a day just to do it, and that better count towards my hours if you’re counting hours! I’d push for input into their choice of tracking system & features if possible. That can be a real pain point.

  80. Coach Beard*

    My department head has asked us what it would take for us to come back into the office and feel safe. I have been working from home since last March, a lot of the office is, but we have some conservative older employees who think this is silly and go in daily. From what I’ve seen, most don’t bother with masks although they are supposed to wear them in common areas. The dept head himself has been traveling for work and personal reasons lately. The truth is, I don’t know what it would take for me to come back and be all on board with group meetings and shared breakroom snacks, etc. I miss that stuff but I don’t want to go back if we’re all sequestered and masked with no eating together, I’d rather just keep staying home. We can’t mandate vaccines and won’t be requesting proof, so saying something like “having a majority of people vaccinated” seems too vague. How would you guys respond?

    1. yala*

      Since there are so many variables to control for and your office doesn’t feel that it’s feasible to enforce masks or isolating/no travel, you could say that when your local rate of new cases per day/week is X, you’ll feel comfortable enough to reevaluate the risks of coming in?

      The company can’t really do much about the local rate of new cases, but it’s probably a better indicator of whether or not it’s “safe enough” to come in to work than relying on rules/mandates that may or may not be enforceable, especially if working from home isn’t putting a strain on the actual work being done.

      1. pancakes*

        It doesn’t sound like the company thinks it’s unfeasible to require masks and travel less – it sounds instead like this is seen as a political issue by many of the employees and at least some of the leadership. It isn’t at all unfeasible to require masks in the office and cut down on travel. Many, many millions of people have down precisely that.

        1. yala*

          I was trying to be diplomatic.

          While it’s not *actually* unfeasible to require masks and cut down on traffic, the level of trouble it could cause if people push back might not be worth the headache to the company. It SHOULD be.

          But like. We have a mask mandate, and literally the only place I’ve been that actually enforces it is Costco. My job *tries* but unless you keep your eyes on all the patrons every minute, it’s not gonna happen because there are too many people down here who think it’s stupid.

    2. WellRed*

      How about leaning on say, CDC guidelines? “When the CDC says it’s safe.” Or, “once I get vaccinated”

    3. Nacho*

      “I would go back to the office if we created and strictly enforced a rule to wear masks and stand at least 6 feet apart at all times without exceptions.”

  81. yala*

    Yesterday I got an e-mail invite to “weekly one-on-one meeting” which I didn’t think much of, because we have those every week, so I thought this was just rescheduling for a different day. Then I saw that our department head is also invited to the meeting, so…now I’m panicking. Nothing good has ever happened when I’ve had a meeting with both my supervisor and the department head. I don’t know *what* I did wrong; I can think of a handful of small things that it possibly could be, but none of them seem like something that would warrant a disciplinary meeting.

    I just feel absolutely nauseous and my anxiety is through the roof, and I get to feel this way for the whole week because it’s not until the middle of next week, and I really wish I knew WHAT it was about so I could at least prepare myself.

    1. yala*

      In other news, we’re going to be doing mandatory random Covid testing, which…yeah, I’m ok with that. But I also wonder why it wasn’t a thing ages ago. Better late than never, I guess?

      Hopefully we should be able to get our vax soon. They’ve announced our tier at least.

    2. Rainy*

      My old supervisor used to do this kind of thing–put a meeting on my schedule with no agenda or indication of what it was, and I would FREAK THE FUCK OUT only for her to tell me that a coworker was leaving or that everyone was really happy with how I handled X or Y and I finally said “look, when you don’t say what you want to talk about, it makes me think I’m about to be fired” and y’all, she had no idea it could possibly come off that way.

    3. HMJ*

      If I get invites like this, I like to send a “Can you share an agenda for this meeting?” reply on my RSVP. It really helps with the anxiety and makes me feel like I’m in control of something small!

        1. SomebodyElse*

          I think a better way to phrase that would be “Hi Boss I noticed that Dept Head Donna is also in this meeting, is there something you’d like me to prepare ahead of the meeting? Or are there any specific topics I should be prepared to discuss?”

          The agenda request would come off as adversarial to a lot of people.

          1. yala*

            That sounds like a good way to say it. I’ll try asking her that if we have our regular meeting next week. Thanks!

  82. HMJ*

    In my current role, I wear a whole bunch of hats, one of those roles where a bunch of things need to be covered. We’re coming up to contract renegotiation opportunities, and I know I need a raise – I’ve been told so many times over the past year that I have been pivotal in the department’s success etc – but I just can’t work out what I’m worth!
    The roles I’ve had have ranged from Training and Engagement Manager to Product Owner to Project Manager, despite my current title being extremely low level.
    How do I work out what to ask for? I know I’ve been lowballed in the past – do I just ask for what would make me happy? Work out an average of all the roles I’ve covered?
    I’m stumped!!

    1. ferrina*

      I would start by jotting down all your responsibilities and what percent of your time you spend working on them.
      Example: Llama grooming- 45%; talking to clients and getting them to complete contracts: 20%; knitting kitten mittens- 20%. Don’t include things you’ve only done once or that take up less than 10% of your time.

      Next, find job descriptions that match your responsibilities. Some will be easy, some may be less so. Look at the salary range for each of those jobs. Find the overlap based on the percentage of your time you spend. If you want an exact formula, you can do it by applying [(% of time spent on Role 1) x (salary for FT Role 1 jobs)] + [(% of time spent on Role 2) x (salary for FT Role 2 jobs)] etc. You’ll then need to adjust based on your experience level, your company/industry, and any sort of political capital you’d need to spend.

      Good luck!

  83. Excited Future Employee*

    I JUST GOT AN OFFER LETTER! I’m thrilled, especially coming from an unhealthy workplace in a field that’s been particularly hit by COVID.

    Everyone is remote right now to start and I’m wondering how I ask about this company’s technology/equipment policies. I know that back in spring, the org sent their employees everything from their desks in the office so they now have nice home office setups. I’m coming from a company that basically required me to use my own laptop (which is now getting to be on its last legs) so just the idea of being given a work computer is mind-boggling. I’ve seen a lot of advice about what companies let people take or not take (desks/chairs/monitors, etc.) but I’d appreciate tips about what I should be asking for/about? I have been working from home in a not-great setup this whole time so while I have a big monitor and peripherals, I could really use a new desk as well as the aforementioned computer.

    1. lizanotlisa*

      I think it’s fair to ask for a work computer (and necessary peripherals/accessories) if you know everyone else has one. Not sure about furniture-type things and other supplies, though.

      If nothing else you should be able to write off anything you buy for work as a business expense on your taxes (in the US at least, not sure about elsewhere).

      1. LDF*

        Re: taxes, not going to try to summarize the rules because I’m not an expert but EFE almost certainly cannot deduct home office expenses. I urge anyone thinking about this to look at current regulation as they’ve changed in the past decade.

      2. fhqwhgads*

        The deduction you’re referencing is not true unless you’re self-employed. Been that way since 2018 I believe.

    2. MacGillicuddy*

      Unless you’re an independent contractor, the company should absolutely provide a laptop. And if you’re working from home you should also get whatever other equipment to do your job.

      There are privacy issues and company asset issues at work, and only companies who are doing business on the cheap want you to use your own equipment.

      So instead of asking IF they are providing a laptop, ask them how they will be getting your equipment to you: laptop, monitor, docking station, etc. Thus with the attitude that of course the company will provide these things.

  84. Jo*

    Any advice for ways to show appreciation to virtual employees for next weeks Employee Appreciation Day? As a company we are going thank you emails from the C-suite and photo montages. We obviously cannot gather onsite (and we are just one of about 20 locations) and outside of doing company swag giveaways and recognizing individual employees/teams, i’m at a loss.

    1. Dave*

      We typical did lunch for these times of events but are discussing shutting down an hour early on a Friday.

    3. Captain Marvel*

      Our company asked us to order lunch up to $20 and reimbursed us.

      Ours is a week long and our culture is very “team game” orientated so we also had virtual family feud, guess who this is based on three facts, and they also sent us a snack box. I liked the lunch the most because we were allowed to use it towards groceries.

    4. The teapots are on fire*

      I think if direct managers can write a personalized thank you (thinking of some specific thing about each employee, that’s something that will be treasured.

  85. Katie*

    I have a small dilemma. I applied for a role at a software company about a year ago an never heard anything back, now they reached out to say they are expanding that team and wondered if I was still interested. I set up an initial call to talk about the position, but I don’t think I would want to go qny farther than that. In my current role the only other person who does this is set to go on maternity leave any day and there are 3 projects I am the lead on. I would be jumping at this chance if it was July but right now it doesn’t feel right. Is it ok for me to do the phone screen knowing I probably wouldn’t continue through with the process?

    1. WellRed*

      Yep. Consider it a chance to get some information about the company/role. Besides, you may change your mind. You’re job will survive if you leave.

    2. Foxgloves*

      Yes! Two things:
      1. You might find out during the screen that there’s more to this new role than you thought, and it might actually change your mind; and
      2. If not, you’ve got a built in excuse for not progressing- i.e. “Further to our conversation, I realised that my priorities in XYZ are different now, and I don’t think the role you’re hiring for is right for where I am now”.
      It’s a good situation to be in!

    3. Blue Eagle*

      Don’t be so quick to dismiss the possibility that the position is one you want. As my mentor always said “you need to do what is right for you and not what is right for the company – the company will continue on long after you are gone”.
      Unless your current company has gone out of its way for you in the past, don’t feel that you need to go out of your way and forego a potential great opportunity out of misplaced loyalty. Good luck on the interview!

    4. Overeducated*

      So, I’m leaving my job for a start date I wish were in July for similar reasons – not only was I a lead on some cool projects that are important to me, but another coworker gave notice the week before I got my offer. Institutions survive. It may not be easy but if it’s THAT important that you work get done, your current job will figure out how to replace you, temporarily or long term.

    5. Dave*

      Also who knows how long the process will end up taking. For some companies this could easily drag out until June or longer.

  86. Newbie*

    anyone in the world of politics? I’m a recent grad in a political consulting internship right now and I think I might be interested in comms/press assistant roles on campaigns- Any general advice or insight into that world? I’ve done fieldwork for campaigns but never communications.

    1. Politics-adjacent in Dixie*

      My politics world is in the Confederacy and the general advice I would offer is based on real-world experience: Dress for success. Of course, some of us are better-looking than others, but even people like me, who are not blessed by nature with pretty faces, can level the playing field by making the most of what we’ve got. So make sure your appearance is neat and clean and professional by conventional standards. Hide tattoos and piercings.

      Entry level jobs in campaigns, as you may know, tend to involve very long hours and low pay, so be prepared for those. Keep your expenses and social obligations to a minimum.

      Expect to hear a lot of colorful language, but don’t use too much profanity at first yourself. The people cussing so much are not role-modeling, and will look askance at a new hire (particularly a young person) who swears as much as they do.

      Most important: Commit with passion to the candidate, knowing that they’re all human beings and are going to disappoint from time to time. Career success in this field always involves a degree of devotion to an individual that would be inappropriate in other contexts.

    2. Malika*

      A group of friends of mine work in a political party. They all got their start doing what you do now. If you snag this role, it is very exciting and will provide a lot of career potential.
      Having seen their career trajectory from the outside i can attest to the long hours. While they did have a social life outside their work, there were certain phases wherein they had to give every waking hour to the campaign. As long as you accept this, it doesn’t have to be a bad thing. You are in a phase in your life where you are able to give so much time to a cause, and the every waking hour phases are only temporary. The biggest lessons my friends learnt are the following three bullet points.

      -Keep your nose clean.
      Politics can be a murky field, so this can be a hard one to follow. Yet a misstep, initially hidden from view, can come back to haunt you. It can render your subsequent hard work for naught. I knew someone who had to resign after they found a case of fraud which rendered him disqualified for election. He had to exit the party permanently, after previously being touted as one of the rising stars.
      -Network like hell
      Even more so than in other fields. It is not just who you know, but how well you get along with others. Yes, we all know of politicians who cannot get along with others if their lives depended on them. They either have exceptional talents in other areas, or managed to keep their unsocial ways in check at pivotal moments on the way up. If you can connect to others effectively, are known to all departments and have the ability to bring people together, this is what will make you go far. The core description of your job, is what many people can do. Effective networking is a rare skill, which will pay you back manyfold.
      -Play the long game
      You can experience rapid ascension of the ladder in this field. It is far more common to pay your dues and to gradually develop your position as you learn how to lobby and get your ideas heard. This is no bad thing, because i have seen people crash and burn with rapid ascension more often, rather than build a career with great longevity. Gradual developments of your goals can be a chance to learn a deep understanding of the skills you need to succeed and an appropiately large training ground.

  87. Mashed Potato*

    I haven’t been here for a while. So I had gotten one job in August for a company that was intending to expand into my state/region, and we had training in the company’s state, but ended up canceling (nbd), and sent those of us who want to fly home.

    then I got another job that started after thanksgiving, in the industry/degree i studied in! While I am grateful to have a job in pandemic and related to my studies (after 5 years since graduation), one of the new hire I met got on my nerves.

    He’s openly lgbt and based on the things he had talked about, I would say he’s leaning conservative. That’s his thing though, I am just observing without making direct comment. On the other hand, he seemed to have personality of stereotypical behaviors as seen on media. he also claimed he had an abbreviated mental issue, but I am getting negative and toxic vibe from him. I can try to distance myself from him, but sometimes we just get assigned tasks and I have no choice but to talk to him anyways.

    Here’s some stuff that he did that bothered me:
    1) Ask my opinion/suggestion for tasks and then promptly disagreeing with me, rudely. Ok I understand that sometimes when I brainstorm my ideas arent the best, but he talked to me like he’s smarter and more superior. I can’t police how he talks but I’m sure there’s a better way to express disagreement.

    2) he seemed to be extremely talkative, and talks about himself a lot and also jump into other’s convo a lot. This is a little too reminiscent of my interactions with my mom lol. Sometimes I think he enjoys listening to himself talk more than listening to others talk. Any small talk I have with him I kept to vague and minimum. “I did chores last weekend and just chill.”

    3) Since we’re all trainees (and a few others), he had a tendency to jump first and go first all the time. While this can be seen as taking initiative, me and other new hires seemed more polite and democratic and be like, you wanna go first. and in that note, he also gets impatient if I try to grey rock when talking to him, he’ll bounce back “did you hear what I said” or something like that

    4) he also seemed a little bossy sometimes. I don’t know what he’s compensating. sometimes if other coworkers message me to grab something and not him, he’ll be like. “where are you going?” there are other times when we do tasks that he’ll just go “how many did you do?” even though we’re allowed to be a little slow and be cautious due to the nature and impact of our work.

    5) other coworkers havent say anything at least not out loud but i think they’re writing off his personality as his sexuality. I mean, i am lgbt myself, just not out at work, and have met other lgbt people who are more professional and agreeable to work with.

    6) in my early days of meeting him sometimes he brings up topic (sometimes science sometimes covid) and it ended up an argument bc he can’t take disagreement and get defensive about it if you challenge him.

    I am only new to the job for 3 months. I want to keep it, but I also can’t handle him. Other people I have vented to told me to keep my distance but I think it’s extra hard when we’re the same shift. I probably forget other traits that he annoys the shit out of me, but basically he’s talkative, somewhat try hard, sounds insecure, arrogant, and definitely drain my mental energy.

    2. SomebodyElse*

      I’m very confused why his lgbt or conservative leanings mean anything to the other traits you describe, but beyond that, I have some very bad news for you. You will work with this guy in different shapes and forms at every job you will ever have. You might as well start figuring out how to deal.

      Of course if he does anything that falls outside of normal coworker annoyance (which what you described I would consider within the normal range) then you can escalate to your manager.

      1. Mashed Potato*

        thank you for your reply
        those two parts don’t, but i think other coworkers are likely to write off his personality as lgbt instead of taking an objective look at how it’s impacting others.

        what would be considered outside of normal work annoyance?

        I think im just annoyed bc he seemed to be trying to power over me, as the other new hire in the same shift/rotation. whereas everybody else had been here a little bit longer.

        1. Mashed Potato*

          I forget to add that we work in basically science industry. but some of the things he said, along with his arrogance and lack of listening, makes me think his conservative side is blocking meaningful, fact-oriented discussion.

        2. meteorological spring*

          Congratulations on the new job!

          I think you should focus on what he’s doing that’s interfering with your work and address that. For example, maybe you need fewer interruptions throughout the day from him so you can focus on your work, and you can tell him that next time he approaches. Or maybe you need him to not speak over you, so you can finish your sentence. There are some advice columns here about how to do that.

          Also, I think you are best served by not mentioning “lgbt personality” as a unified concept. That is a stereotype that’s likely to be offensive to many people, even if you yourself are LGBT (as am I!). Like, don’t use it yourself and don’t say other people are thinking about it unless you hear them say so, and if you hear them say so, shut that down.

        3. pancakes*

          This sounds like a pretty homophobic environment. Being LGBT isn’t a personality, let alone a set of negative personality traits (arrogant, rude, can’t handle disagreement, etc.). I would try to minimize contact with people who feel that way in addition to trying to minimize contact with him.

          1. Mashed Potato*

            i want to clarify that i dont think the environment is homophobic, but more like i dont see the need to be out at work when im just trying to build my skills and career. (also im single, but i dont intend to invite coworkers anyways to life events)

            thank you for the reply

            1. meteorological spring*

              I think pancakes was saying that an environment where people categorize their coworkers as having an “lgbt personality” sounds homophobic. I certainly would find that an uncomfortable place to be myself, out or not (I’m not out but I’m not not out – no one has asked so I’ve never answered!)

              Also, now I’d like some mashed potato pancakes please.

        4. SomebodyElse*

          Sorry for the lag getting back to this (that darned work getting in the way!) Anyway, to your question about outside of normal work annoyance. I would consider things like outright harassment, anything that would be considered sexual harassment, full on bullying behavior, etc.

          What you describe, I would consider normal annoyance, personality conflict. Nothing you’ve mentioned would warrant escalation to a boss, HR, or work reporting line. In other words, if he’s not violating any company policies or laws, he could just be a jerk or has a different communication style than you do.

          If I can say this gently, I really do think you can probably benefit with learning techniques for dealing with coworkers you don’t like or get along with on a personal level. Every job and every work place will have “Oh HIM/Oh HER/Oh THEM” (imagine the eyeroll that goes along with the sigh as you say that out loud).

          Even with your explanations, I think you are treading on dangerous ground by trying to fit his personality traits into predefined attribute boxes that in fact could land you in violation of company policy or law territory. I’ll leave it at that since I think the responses below have said it much better than I could in relation to the LGBT/conservative comment.

          1. meteorological spring*

            Well said. I will just add a middle level between “personality you have to deal with” and “harassment that shouldn’t be tolerated”: sometimes someone can be annoying enough that their behavior causes problems for you when completing your work, even if it’s not on the level of harassment or bullying. You can address their behaviors as they happen then, like please don’t come over to my desk 4 times an hour or please don’t skip me in this workflow.

    3. GigglyPuff*

      Honestly you should follow the advice your coworkers have given you. Distance yourself and don’t interact beyond projects. Give as little info as possible to him when it’s not about work. Don’t encourage him when he’s rambling about an off-work topic and if he asks if you were listening, just say no, I was thinking about work or project x, which I need to get back to. If he asks about your work, just say you’re trying to concentrate and put headphones back on or something. If he gets upset, he gets upset, you don’t need to manage his feelings.

      I’ve been around people like this, if they know you aren’t a captive audience, most of the time they will move on. Also, stop venting about him to other people. Let other people figure out how he is, and honestly if it’s this bad, hopefully someone higher up will pick up on it and do something.

      Seriously there’s almost always going to be someone like this at work. You can get annoyed but don’t say anything until it’s actually hampering your job with reportable examples.

  88. Please Exit Through the Rear Door*

    Those of you who have done Toastmasters: do you feel it’s had other benefits to you beyond improving your public speaking skills?

    I’m actually decent at public speaking; I do it all the time. But I have trouble being assertive with my reports at work and am wracked with anxiety answering questions during a job interview. It was suggested to me to try Toastmasters. 

    Might it help with either or both issues? Or would it be like calling an car mechanic to fix an airplane? Thanks in advance.

    1. aiya*

      I really enjoyed doing TM for a variety of reasons and always recommend it to others, but if you’re looking to improve specific traits and behaviors, then I think you need a more pointed approach rather than just a blanket “learn how to speak in front of others” exercise.

      IMO, preparing and delivering a speech at TM is not the same as answering job interview questions. The best way to get better at interviews is to practice and practice your interview answers until you know the material intimately and can speak about it naturally. Interviewing well and being able to speak about your experience in a professional setting is a different and very niche skillset, which requires practice. Even people who are naturally talented speakers may need to brush up on their interviewing skills too. This is why the more interviews you go to, the better you become at answering the questions – often, hiring managers ask similar questions and you can pretty anticipate what they will ask by your 3rd or 4th interview.

      Similarly, if you’re having trouble being assertive at work, I think you may want to seek a career coach, find a mentor, or take a leadership course to assist you specifically in that aspect.

    2. Librarygal30*

      Toastmasters has benefited me in many ways, and while the public speaking skills advancement have been the most obvious, the ones that have helped me most have been the ones that I have developed from doing evaluations.
      When giving evaluations, you need to be direct and specific, which helps me when I’m giving feedback to people who work with and for me. It also helps me to be able to say something similar to ‘I don’t think you are understanding what I’m telling you. I mean ____’.
      For getting nervous answering questions in an interview, I have discovered that once I know the purpose of the questions being asked, I know how to spin my answer. Table Topics help to think on your feet when getting a question that you can sort of answer, but not completely. That’s when you are able to spin the question to highlight what you have done or accomplished. Because I do a lot of research and rehearsal for interview questions, it helps for me to be able to practice answering different parts of it, and then not just babbling, which is where the career coach option that aiya mentioned would be super beneficial!

    3. Skeeder Jones*

      I think it can definitely help you feel more confidence while answering questions. When I was involved in Toastmasters, there was a portion of the meeting called Table Topics and you could be randomly selected to answer a question or speak about a topic on the fly. It is specifically promoted as helping people communicate in unplanned conversations. You can always “visit” a meeting to see what you think. I am sure they are mostly virtual right now.

  89. Time for Tea*

    I had this question in a screening interview this week:
    “How are you at managing up?”

    Is this as odd as I think? How am I supposed to answer that?
    “I’m fabulous! I manipulate my boss all the time!”

    1. Overeducated*

      I think it tells you something about the employer’s level of self awareness! Managing up is super important in my org, I’d use it to talk about things like communication styles, how to make sure important issues and deadlines are in front of busy people’s eyes when they need to be, and how you make your boss’s life easier.

      1. Time for Tea*

        This is exactly how I chose to answer it in the moment! I talked about different bosses that I’d had and how I adapted my working style to their individual style (i.e., the boss that only wanted high-level vs the boss that wanted details, the boss that liked meetings vs the boss that liked emails).

        I guess that was the right answer- I just got an invite to the next round of interviews.

    2. Sabine the Very Mean*

      I would wonder if there was someone needing serious managing up. Why won’t they deal with a manager who requires her staff to manage her? That would be where my head is with that quesiton.

      1. Time for Tea*

        I wondered that too! Does that mean that my direct boss will be difficult, or just that there’s a board member I’ll talk to once a month who needs to be handled with kid gloves (which I’m fine with)? Guess I’ll find out!

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think it’s an odd way to phrase the question, but I think if I would about communication styles, my skill at setting priorities, and my ability to learn someone else’s behavior. I once tempted for a very important person who was very scattered. I was taught by his long time admin how to carefully manage his schedule and make sure he had the right notes for the right meetings. He was super busy and super good at his job, but also… not always all there. As Overeducated suggests, this means the employer probably knows this about themselves. He openly admitted this about himself, but that was why he had an assistant.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        I would talk about… leaving out words in comments about being scattered in probably a sign I could use some managing up.

    4. Not A Manager*

      “Managing up” seems to have several different meanings. I’ve seen some articles recently where it implies something like “knowing your manager’s agenda and being on the same team with them regarding the big picture.”

  90. Disabled In Seattle*

    What kind of strategies have folks used to deal with the optics of leaving a job very soon after starting?

    I graduated in 2020 and lost my first job after about 3 months b/c of factors covered by an NDA. In November, I managed to get my next job after several months searching, in part because I removed job 1 from my resume. I’m still at job 2 now, but I need to get back on the job market– job 2 doesn’t pay a living wage (which was the result of a bait and switch, blegh), I’m relying on my parent’s help to afford rent, and the job and boss are so dysfunctional that it’s causing a really bad stress induced illness.

    It’s been such a short time since starting Job 2 that leaving it off my resume might be an option. But this job has also given me experience that would be impossible to get in school; it’s been sink or swim but I’ve been doing (and mostly succeeding with) tasks that are generally not assigned to people in my field until they’ve got 2-3 years post-grad experience. Sending a resume out with no work listed since graduation wouldn’t allow me to show my accomplishments in the field or proof that I can do the work, and even with COVID job market instability it feels like I’ll always be fielding “how is it you haven’t gotten a real job yet if you’re a good employee we want to hire?”.

    But then back again, leaving a job after 3-4 months looks very questionable. Most people in my field stay at their first job for 2-5 years. Even if I can get past the resume screening to an interview, I don’t know how much to explain about the different factors prompting that move without sounding worse– I don’t want to come across as someone who can’t handle the stress/workload/normal pay of a job in the industry, and I’m struggling to balance “be honest about what happened” and “don’t air all your complaints to a hiring manager”. Job 2 is a 1099 position; would describing the job as “Contract [position title]” help explain the brief stay?

    I feel like I’m stuck with not a lot of great options, and I’m wondering if readers with more experience can give me some tips on how to handle this.

    1. Lifelong student*

      If your current source of revenue is a position in which you are compensated in a manner in which you receive a 1099, you are not an employee- you are an independent contractor. You can describe this as freelance work and include the experience but address your desire to move on to traditional employment. Of course, you still have to convince the new entities that you want to work for them on a full time basis and be an employee.

      2. Disabled In Seattle*

        Thank you for the suggestion! The 1099 status has been such a problem for me personally (esp because my current job would be violating labor laws left and right if I wasn’t a 1099 and exempt from most of them) that I hadn’t been thinking about it as an asset in my job search. Freelancing is common enough in my field that people wouldn’t look askance at it, but uncommon enough that most people would probably understand wanting to move back into the traditional realm of “having a stable salaried job” and “being offered health insurance”. I appreciate the insight.

    2. PX*

      In addition to what the other commentor said, from reading this blog for a long time, bait-and-switch is often a valid reason to leave a job. Phrase it politely, and like you said, no need to go into details about how bad it is, but saying that it was described as things A but is actually thing Q, and you really want to be doing thing A is an acceptable reason to leave.

      1. Disabled In Seattle*

        That definitely makes sense! There are some aspects of the job that I can definitely point to (most jobs have a mix of x and y, this job only has y, I’m particularly good at x), but most of the baiting and switching was around hours/pay and I don’t trust myself to bring that up in an interview without getting overly salty. I’ll do some mirror practice to see if I can get my answers to a tolerable state.

        (In essence, was told $rate/hour at interview and offer, was told 2 weeks later that that rate only applies to hours billable to specific projects and I wouldn’t get paid for admin work, it’s skirting legality but my overall hours including $0 admin hours against my overall wage puts me right above the minimum wage line) (gave me a whole new job placement rule that if my pay structure causes genuine questions about legality, it’s a bad structure and a dysfunctional company)

        1. Lifelong student*

          You did NOT have a wage if you were a contractor! Only employees have wages! Sure seems that the appropriate government agencies would love to investigate this company.

        2. WellRed*

          In an interview situation, you shouldn’t be getting into those nutty gritty issues! “The job turned out to be not what it advertised” or “I’m looking for a full time staff role and that was a contract position with no room for stability or growth”

    3. Emilitron*

      Absolutely, if you’re 1099 you can describe the position as contracting. And especially for a new grad, short job terms are not that unusual. Keep it on the resume. You’ll be telling your story in the cover letter, what about this contract position taught you who you are professionally in ways that make you right for the job you’re applying for, etc.

  91. Trude*

    I asked this on last week’s open thread, but I was late posting and so I’m hoping for more perspectives this time. I’m in a similar situation with an LW from last week, the one who asked whether they should stay in their job until they’ve improved their work, or if it was better to resign than to be fired.

    I didn’t mention this last week, because I thought it wasn’t important, but this is my first job after college. It’s coming up to two years now, so I’m approaching my second performance review. The first year was rough, and I honestly thought I wouldn’t pass probation. And because of the mistakes I made during this time, there are a couple of people in my team that give me a cold shoulder even until today. I frankly don’t have the energy to mend the relationships. And like Alison said, it might take even longer to improve my reputation than it would take to improve my work.

    My second year so far has been an improvement, but honestly I don’t expect my performance review to be much better than last year. I still made a couple serious mistakes.

    At the same time, this job has helped me figure out what parts of the job I enjoy and do pretty good, and what I don’t. I’m considering to just resign and take a month to decompress, and explain in future interviews about how the job wasn’t a good fit but it helped me figure things out.

    So, has anyone here had that experience, of telling your manager “this isn’t working out, and can we discuss how I can transition away?” How did you phrase it, and what was the outcome? Any other advice would be welcome as well!

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I have been on the employers side of this conversation and it was a relief. Our company was able to give the employee six months of a transition period. Last I heard, they were doing well. However, I would really emphasize this here, trying to find a job right now maybe super hard. I would just make sure you have your financial ducks in a row, because after the six months was over, our company would not have been able to extend their employment. I hope other have more direct experience on the employee side of this.

    2. ferrina*

      I wouldn’t have that conversation unless you were ready to be pushed out. Unless you have evidence that your company (and specifically your manager) will take it well, assume they won’t. Plenty of people will hear that and think it’s your 2-week notice.

      Focus on your job search while you’re still employed. This looks like a really normal career trajectory- a couple years in your first job, you figure out what you like and move to your second job. Once you get a new job, it’s pretty normal to take a couple weeks to reset before starting you new job.
      Make sure you are ready to look for quite a while! Like AnotherLibrarian said, the market is really tough right now and your search may take a longer than you think.

      1. Joan Rivers*

        Sometimes we have an automatic “time limit” for jobs, homes, etc. and don’t realize. I figured it out from my resume and traced it went back to childhood, w/big changes every 5-6 years for a while.
        Realizing my pattern helped my perspective.

  92. OyHiOh*

    A comment, then a question.

    This week I had to teach my co-workers how to use the insert a poll feature in Outlook, because two of them have spent weeks loudly arguing that we need to buy a team subscription to Doodle Poll and didn’t know the email service had this function.

    Last weekend, I was a volunteer DECA judge for the state high school tournement. I was given a section of “Professional Business Management and Administration” students. Fully a third of my students referenced The Office as a positive in their presentations. Do “the kids these days” coming out of high school/college really think that The Office showed a positive and realistic office environment???? The tourny was virtual, which was good because I’m not sure I would have been able to disguise my astonishment every time the phrase “office politics, if done well, can improve brain storming and enhance collaboration” came out of a student’s mouth (paraphrased).

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Huh, I also didn’t know Outlook had a poll feature!

      As for whether kids these days recognize The Office as a parody of a workplace, I wonder whether it’s the only exposure to an office they’ve ever seen. I can’t think of another popular show that takes place within an office and shows people doing mundane office work. And isn’t that the role of their mentors and other adult influences, to gently show them what’s actually realistic and positive?

  93. Sharkzle*

    Graphic designers out there – what projects do you typically show on your website versus in your portfolio? Sometimes I think I have too many projects on my website – it’s at 17 right now and shows the gamut of my capabilities through several clients and positions. However, I wouldn’t show 17 projects in a PDF or physical portfolio and would definitely tailor it to the position I’m applying for. The kicker is that many of the positions I’m applying for simply ask for your website and are no longer asking for a portfolio deck. How are other designers handling this?

    1. Fern*

      Do you have any way of creating a custom section of your portfolio with a custom URL, maybe behind a log in? That way you could give a link but it would go to a curated collection

      1. Sharkzle*

        That’s a great suggestion, thank you. I use Squarespace so I’ll see what sort of capabilities like that they have.

  94. lizanotlisa*

    I am about to have my second interview for a new job (yay!). This would be my first time dealing with salary negotiations as before now I’ve pretty much just worked hourly and part-time. I have a question about relocation expenses.

    The job is in another state, but is remote due to COVID. My plan (contingent on a future employee agreeing) has been to work from where I am until the lease is up on my apartment, which is this summer, then move to the city where the job is located even if I’m still working remotely so that I’m nearby if/when things are more normal. Is it fair to ask for future relocation costs to be covered? It seems like it should be, because I’m still moving for the job, but I wanted to be sure.

    1. wingmaster*

      Yes, you can ask them about relocation assistance. In my experience, most companies do provide this and usually either as a lump sum or reimbursement of up to X amount of $. It’s also taxed too, so check and see about the different state taxes. Maybe this other state may not have state tax (and your current state does) so it would be helpful to have an address at that new state to get more $.

    2. WellRed*

      I think it depends on both the company and the level you work at. If you are fairly entry level, I think you’re out of luck as opposed to if you are an executive. I disagree with wingmaster that most companies do this, but maybe its industry dependent as well.

  95. Overeducated*

    Today is my last day at a good job with a really good manager. As she said today, “we did so much cleanup, we were just starting to be able to do fun stuff!” Which is true, and sad, but an opportunity came up and I’m leaving for a lateral transfer to diversify my experience.

    And I’m soooo nervous and worried I’ve made the wrong choice, but it’s way too late to take it back. The manager I interviewed with is transferring himself, so who’ll replace him is a total unknown, and I’m aware I’m walking into something of a cleanup situation in the new gig too. Has anyone else left a good job to gain skills elsewhere and seriously regretted it? Has anyone been unsure they made the right decision, but figured out how to make the best of it and have a good outcome in the end? Advice welcome!

    1. Decidedly Me*

      I got a job offer at a company that seemed interesting to me, but at the offer stage, I was much less excited. Semi-pay related, but mostly a few other things. I really needed to get away from my current job, though, and they said all the right things during the interview process to my questions, so I figured I may as well give it a shot.

      I’ve been here over 3 years now and have no plans on leaving. I love my company and what I do. I’m treated with respect, feel valued, and have been giving a ton of opportunity to grow.

      1. Overeducated*

        Thanks, I’m glad it worked out so well for you! I feel so weird about this because I don’t really need to get away from my current job, I like my current job, so I really hope this is worth the risk! I have worked with some of the people before and know I’ll be valued, but questions like “will my new direct supervisor allow me to continue with my flexible schedule due to school being virtual during COVID?” and “will substantial telework still be allowed after this?” are keeping me up at night along with the general sadness about leaving.

  96. Nessun*

    Question about setting up a “home office” space!

    I’ve been working from home since March of last year, and when our office opens back up, we’ll probably have the option to continue WFH – the company is very supportive, and there’s been no issues with my productivity while I’ve been WFH, and my boss doesn’t work in my local office so we’ve always had a remote-style working relationship. I’ve been working from my kitchen table, with a laptop, riser, keyboard & mouse, and second monitor.

    I’d like to reclaim this space, and work from my spare room, but my gaming gear is in that room (separate computer, MASSIVE monitor, full bells & whistles). I can arrange the room to contain both setups on separate desks, but one of the reasons I’ve been using separate spaces for each is that I want & need the separation of work!mind and gaming!mind. I game to relax, it’s an important part of my social interactions; I don’t want to spend all my time at a monitor in that room, doing one thing or another. So – is anyone else in a similar situation? How do you separate your “home life” from “work life” when both are…at home? I’m open to suggestions, and I’d like to hear other people’s experiences, good or bad.

    (I realize I’m very lucky to be in a situation where I have the space to have options. I live alone, so my space is mine to change as I see fit – currently the kitchen table gets cleared on Friday nights and set up again on Sunday nights.)

    1. Nicki Name*

      My WFH space is a few feet from where I sit to play VTT games. I have a chair that I only sit in when I’m doing work, and a table I only use for my work stuff, and it’s all oriented in a different direction from my gaming chair, and I’ve found that that’s enough.

      And I’m someone who said before the pandemic that I needed to be in an actual office to focus on work during work hours and home stuff during home hours!

      1. Girasol*

        That’s what I was thinking: a work territory and a play territory. Put a folding screen or a tall bookcase between if that’s an option, or tape off the workplace with real or imaginary tape. Then when you’re in the office you can be all business and you can exit the office and close an imaginary door on it.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      I’m lucky enough to have a completely different room for my office and my gaming setup, but that hasn’t always been the case! I was a couch and kitchen table working for a long time (with the same computer for both work and pleasure!).

      What about a room separator, so you have a physical barrier delineating the space?

      Or, is there another space in your house where you can set up a separate desk? Do you happen to use the kitchen table a lot? Could that space just be another desk space instead? Not the most common use of that space, but hey, my kitchen table is now my puzzle table :)

    3. Oxford Comma*

      I only have one computer. Like you I game as well. And my set up is in a bedroom that was converted to an office when I first moved in.

      I do one of those goofy “commute” things in the morning to get in the right headspace. Like I put on a work appropriate top and my wrist watch. I go for a walk around the block. I do not eat in my office. I try and use remote desktop as much as I can. I get up and walk around my home multiple times a day. At the end of the work day, I get up, turn off the light, change into something more casual, walk around the block, eat my dinner elsewhere in the house, and don’t come back in the office to game till later.

    4. The Real Persephone Mongoose*

      I have this sort of thing going on. I am WFH and use my library for both my work office and my home office/library. It’s a large room. Like 500 sf. I manage it by tucking the work desk and setup in a small corner nook. It’s there but it’s in a nook so I can easily separate myself physically and mentally from my work work space while I’m using the rest of the room for personal use. If I’m not working, I don’t go into that work nook. Is there some way you can put up a screen that blocks your view of the work area? Something like a really nice folding screen that gives you some clear separation of that space from the rest of your space? I do make sure that I have fully dedicated equipment in the work nook. My desk, PC, monitors, light, chair etc are all exclusively for work. I never swap equipment around or mix my use of any of it. Also, as Nicki Name suggests, orienting your desks so they face away from each other can be very helpful if you can’t screen them off.

      1. Joan Rivers*

        A tall bookcase? One that’s open in the back, w/glass shelves? Some decor magazines show them in studio apartments to separate the bed area back by the windows — it lets light through but objects and plants add privacy.

  97. Lifelong student*

    A poster above referred to a job as being a 1099 position but the implication was that it was a “job” I find many references to positions as being contract positions. I understand that there are functions which may be filled by persons not directly hired by the entity receiving the benefits of the labor. Some may be employees of another entity such as a staffing entity while others may be what I would normally consider to be independent contractors/freelancers.
    There are legal definitions for independent contractors and employees. Each category has its advantages and disadvantages particularly in terms of benefits.
    I understand that there are situations where a business may have a need to fill a position for a temporary and generally finite period which justifies using a staffing service to avoid adding the person to the company’s benefit structure. I suspect in most of those cases the direct cost of the person is comparable to the company but is paid to the staffing agency such that the person doing the work receives much less.

    For entities that use this procedure on a long term basis, I have an ethical qualm. A post a week or so ago talked about a company which terminated its janitorial staff and instead hired a cleaning company- which hired all the same staff and assigned them to the original company. Chances of cleaning company providing the same benefits would be small- so perhaps money was saved- but that seems to me that corporate is enhancing its bottom line by distasteful means.

    I think keeping anyone in a temp-to-hire position for a protracted period is unfair to the worker.
    I know that paying someone as a 1099 contractor when they are in fact an employee is illegal- and if discovered can cost the company a whole lot of money. Microsoft was prosecuted for this some years ago with major implications.

    1. The Real Persephone Mongoose*

      You are correct that MS was on the losing end of a major lawsuit over this sort of thing. That’s why you’ll find they now have two tiers of vendor employees. Some are 18 months on followed by mandatory 6 months away from MS before they can return. The other model is called Managed Services which covers a huge amount of vendors. The vendors work for another company but are employed at MS. They have strictly defined roles and we don’t manage them (other than to direct work to the lead) and the vendor company manages the hiring/firing and all the benefits. This is done for not just technical staff but also janitorial staff, kitchen/dining staff, security, etc. I don’t know that it’s a cost savings for the company but it keeps them from having to hire/train/manage employees that do tasks outside the company’s core competency. They do require that the vendor companies meet certain ethical standards in their business practices but I know not all companies do that.

  98. Sleepy*

    My org has been experimenting with providing candidates with most of the interview questions a few days ahead of time. The goal is a more equitable hiring process, to give people who may be less culturally comfortable or less experience in a formal interview setting a better chance to develop their answers. However, we also heard from a person we hired that this actually made the process more stressful for them.

    I’m curious to hear others’ experiences with getting the questions ahead of time, whether from the hiring side or the candidate side.

    1. irene adler*

      Speaking as a job candidate, that would be my dream!
      More stressful? So they find being put “on the spot” with no foreknowledge of what they will be asked, to be less stressful? I’d be interested in the explanation behind this.

      1. Sleepy*

        They said the stress came from the feeling that their answers had to be completely perfect since they had the chance to work on them ahead of time.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I don’t interview well, so having the questions ahead of time would definitely make me feel better as far as being able to prepare. (Weakness: I’m not very polished at off-the-cuff speaking. Result: I do much better if I have time to prepare, so I’ve largely tracked my career to areas where I can work with information and processes and plan how I can present things to people rather than having to wing it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )

      I can’t…. think of any reason that knowing them ahead of time would be more stressful? I’m curious to see what other people say.

    3. Decidedly Me*

      I can see it both ways. For some things, I’ll have a better answer on the spot, while for others having more time would be really helpful.

      I think my answers would sound less natural though. I’d be more worried about remembering what I wanted to say and saying it “right”, which could take away from engaging with the question? That’s not exactly what I mean, but I can’t think of a better way to say it right now.

      If the interview goes “off script”, that could really throw someone, too.

    4. whistle*

      I don’t know that I would describe it as more stressful (though I understand the thought process behind that comment), but it would certainly be more time consuming for me and I wouldn’t like it for that reason. My annoyance level would depend on how much info is available to me about the position prior to the interview. For example, if I don’t know a salary range, work schedule, WFH vs. on-site, or other compensation/logistics info that would influence if I even want the job before being given a list of questions to spend time prepping for, I’m gonna be annoyed. But I also hate job hunting and am horrible at it, so take anything I say in that regard with a grain of salt.

    5. GigglyPuff*

      Personally I love getting the questions ahead of time because I do not think well on my feet. My job currently does it, but it’s only 10-15 mins before the interview. I’m thinking you’re probably giving them too early for that one person, so they obsess over their responses for days. I mean that’s part of their issue, but maybe just a day ahead of time would be better? But it’s really up to y’all.

      1. Reba*

        Timing, as well as communication about why you are giving the questions could help set expectations. But yeah, I agree that person is probably an outlier, and you shouldn’t plan everything around the chance that some people (who I think are likely to be anxious around interviews regardless of what you do or don’t provide) might react badly.

        I would love this!

    6. ferrina*

      I’m curious what the interviewers at your organization think! As an interviewer, I tailor my questions for each individual and their experiences. A few questions remain the same (Tell me about a time when you had to prioritize; what is the best supervisor you ever worked for and what made them great), but many questions vary.
      You said you provide “most” of the questions- I think the messaging around that would matter. “Here are some examples of questions that you may be asked” vs “Here are the exact questions you will be asked” (or something in between!)

    7. Just Another Manic Millie*

      I would have LOVED to be told the questions ahead of time!

      At one interview, I was asked if their company was the only company that I had applied to. I said no. (Afterwards, I was told by a friend that I should have said, “That’s none of your business!” I said that if I had said that, it would have taken me out of the running.) Then I was asked, “Why didn’t any of those other companies hire you?” I was so taken aback that I said, “I don’t know.” And THAT took me out of the running.

      When discussing this months later with someone, I was told that what I should have said was, “Actually, I don’t know that all of them didn’t want me. Later this afternoon/tomorrow morning, I have an appointment for a third interview with a company. And right before my interview with you, I checked my messages, and I found out that one company wants me to go to their HR Dept. ASAP, and another wants me to call them back, because they have good news.” If I had been told ahead of time that I would be asked why nobody wanted to hire me, I would have asked around for suitable answers.

      At another interview, I was asked if co-workers enjoyed working with me. At that moment, I realized that I had never worked with co-workers on anything. I always did my job solo. So I said, “Yes, they do!” Then I was asked why they enjoyed working with me. I said, “It’s because everyone knows that I’m a hard worker. They know that I’m always willing and able to pick up the slack if necessary.” The interviewer then accused me of being a back-stabber, since I was in effect saying that my co-workers weren’t as productive as I was. If I had known in advance that I would be asked this, I would have asked for advice as to how to answer the question. Who knows, I might have been advised to tell the truth, to say, “I always did my job solo, so I have no idea if my co-workers enjoyed working with me. Maybe they did, and maybe they didn’t. I have no idea.”

  99. Remember Neopets?*

    I feel like I’m a little late in the day for this…

    Does anyone know or can anyone direct me to a place Alison has documented how to structure your resume when you have additional tasks that aren’t part of your role?

    For instance, my role is Manager of Chocolate Marketing but I also regularly structure security rights and advise on how data is being entered and, run reports and create dashboards.

    We basically had a total turnover of management staff so it became an all hands on deck situation and I’ve found that I like doing those things and it more closely aligns with what I want my career to be. But if someone went to HR and asked what the responsibilities of Chocolate Marketing were, the reporting and dashboards and data administrative tasks wouldn’t be listed.

    Any help is appreciated!

    1. Always Late to the Party*

      Alison often says your resume should list accomplishments, not necessarily tasks. So I think if you have accomplishments in other areas while you’re in the Manager of Chocolate Marketing role it’s fine to list them there. You could add a caveat “during period of management turnover” or something if you want it to be clear it’s not part of your regular responsibility.

  100. Anna G.*

    Just looking for some feedback, especially from experienced managers, on deciding if a new role is a good fit and on if I need to just tough things out.

    I am doing a trial run as a site manager for my company, which is common, before the position actually opens up for applicants. This role would be a promotion for me and is, at least in theory, the logical next step in my career. I say in theory, but in reality the role is… not turning out to be what I hoped for. For context, I have past experience doing components of this role and have been doing the trial run for a few weeks.

    But I’m struggling and having my doubts.

    Realistically, this job is not a 40-hour/week role. Based on the workload I’ve experienced, it’s not a 50-hour/week role, either. To get all of the responsibilities done according to deadlines (which you are penalized for missing), I would have to put 60+ hours in. I am also on call after hours, which I do not like because it leaves me anxious in my off time and afraid to do anything or go anywhere.

    Also, everything is thrust on me super last minute, and I’m a planner who likes to block out their time and structure my day. So, I’m not getting what I need to get done during the day, which means I have to stay over in the evening to make up for it.

    I never know what time I will get to leave. In the past few weeks, I’ve left on time less than 5 times. I never even know what time I will get to eat lunch. One day I didn’t get to eat at all, and others I have to eat early and go hungry in the evening because I have to unexpectedly stay late and didn’t bring enough food. Even when I have enough food, there are many days I simply lack the time to eat a snack.

    This role is turning out to be similar to my previous role in that I’m dedicating a lot of time to the aspects of this field that I don’t like and am unable to do more of the things I do like. Even worse, for this trial run, I am expected to perform to the level needed for the position, but at the same compensation I was receiving previously (which is less than my former coworkers who have less responsibility).

    I’m worried I will be miserable in this role if I do receive it. I’m worried I will fail at it due to what feel like, to me at least, unrealistic expectations. I’m worried I will disappoint people if I don’t take the position but, at the same time, know that any salary increase would have to be substantial (15k+) to make this worthwhile. (I also don’t know what the salary range may be.)

    On top of this, I’m also going to graduate school and, while I’m pulling through so far, I’m worried that these extra responsibilities will affect my performance there. I also have a chronic health condition triggered by, of course, stress. I’m managing it the best I can but always worry that it could worsen.

    Thoughts, experiences, advice? I feel like I’m struggling through all of this alone and have no one to talk to about my concerns.

    1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      I would drop this job like a hot potato. Thdy hot you working 60 hours a week, no pay bump, no nothing?

    3. Another JD*

      This job is not a good fit. Besides a possible future pay bump, you’ve said nothing positive about it. Go tell your manager now that you aren’t interested in the site manager position and transition out of it now.

    4. SentientAmoeba*

      Being offered the job does not obligate you to accept it. And if you think your company will try to push you out if you don’t, start looking now.

  101. Sopranistin*

    I’ve been working from home for almost a year now, since the start of the pandemic. It’s made me totally hate my job! Anyone else?
    In normal times, I enjoy my job. I’m (basically) a private tutor for elementary-age children. Now I’m teaching all lessons over Zoom and I feel like it’s taken all the joy out of it. My students aren’t progressing as much and some things just can’t be taught the same way. I’ve had to completely change my teaching methods and lower expectations. I really miss the personal connection I had with my students. I feel discouraged that they aren’t as successful.
    I’m sure most teachers are dealing with all this. I guess I’m lucky that I only have one student at a time, where school teachers have a whole class full to deal with.
    Another factor is the school I teach for lost a ton of money because enrollment was way down. They had to give up their physical building and liquidate everything; computers, furniture, tvs… So I have no idea when we’ll even be able to go back to in-person classes. There’s been no communication about that, but I assume they’re on the lookout for another building. I’m afraid to ask.
    I’d love to hear how other teachers. Or others who hate working from home. How are you coping?

    1. Derivative Poster*

      I have no insights but can relate. I switched jobs in mid-2019 because I was sick of working remotely. Hasn’t really worked out the way I expected :/

    2. Flower necklace*

      I am a teacher, and I absolutely hate working from home. It’s awful. We’re starting hybrid next week. While I have many reservations about that (including the fact that teachers are still in the process of getting vaccinated and it goes against CDC guidelines) I’ll admit that my mood has lifted considerably now that we’re officially returning.

      Still, I have so many students that I haven’t been able to connect with over Zoom, and they’ve lost a lot of time due to the pandemic. Engaging them this late in the year is going to be tough.

      I wish I had some advice, but what’s kept me going so far is the hope that things will be better next year. This can’t last forever. And there are small successes. I’ve been hounding my students to come to my office hours all year with only limited success, but now my students are coming and asking for help with their classes. It took a lot of time and patience, but it worked!

    3. KittyCardigans*

      I work at the high school level and we’re back in classes with a hybrid model, so I can’t give a lot of coping advice specific to working from home. However, I want to validate your feelings about the loss of the personal connection and the frustration of students not progressing. I find it much harder to teach online than in person—but at least when I have a full class of kids (online, in-person, hybrid, whatever), odds are good that ONE of them is going to have a lightbulb moment or say something clever or funny most class periods. Those moments are rarely as satisfying as they were before COVID, but it’s a lot better than nothing. If you’re working one-on-one and your students are struggling the whole time, that’s really draining!

  102. Red Boxes and Arrows*

    Talk to me about SEO companies. My business partner keeps getting sales calls from people who swear up one side and down the other that they can drive thousands of customers to our website (tho we’re an in-home service company) and make us come out at the top of any Google search for our services.

    I’ve read mostly bad things about SEO companies, so I’d like to hear from people here about their experiences, either as an employee or customer of those companies.

    1. Decidedly Me*

      We use an SEO company, though I’m not in a department that interacts with them directly. We’ve used the same company the entire time I’ve been here (over 3 years) and even with in house staff that knows SEO, we’ve kept them on, so I suspect we’re finding value in their services. There is a contest of sorts that they run on our site and it requires written entries to win and they are the ones that go through all those entries. As I’ve read a few of those entries before, I’m so grateful it falls on them and not us.

      For a personal site I have, I’ve used some SEO services and it helped (along with saving me a ton of time doing tasks I didn’t want to do).

      In both cases, the sites are not limited to a local audience, so I can’t speak to that.

    2. Pockey*

      I’m in digital advertising, (have been for the last 7 years and worked at an SEO company briefly). Everything that a SEO company can do for you, you can do and manage yourself on Google. I mean it because Google has tons of learning and testing materials on SEO marketing and how to target that to your specific business. And step by step instructions on how to run and manage it yourself. That said it’s definitely easier on a small business who needs to drive customers to their website to outsource that job to an SEO company.

      I’d be wary of ANY company though who says “they can make you top of Google search” mainly because depending on the search term and targeting you could be paying up to $60 a click (CPC). This is how much companies like GEICO pay for generic “insurance” terms on Google. You likely wouldn’t be paying anywhere near that amount but $2-10 could be the top positioning for your industry/demographic which in the long run may not be very smart for you business strategy or ROI if those clicks aren’t turning into acquisitions (purchases).

      There are ALOT of entry points to digital advertising, SEO is just one of them. I would definitely take a look at Google’s digital advertising learning and dev sites and do the research to familiarize yourself with it. You will learn about targeting, various stages of the customer acquisition/retention process, and what products and price models there are. You might and probably still will be confused, but better armed to have a productive conversation with any rep from an SEO company and won’t need to just take their word for it.

      TL;DR? Ultimately a good rep is not thinking about just getting you clicks or top positioning but making sure your campaign turns into $$$ for your business. If their main selling point is hinging on “top position” and “lots of clicks” without any contextual info on why this works for your particular business, in your industry to your particular market/demographic, I would RUN.

      1. Mental Lentil*

        All of this.

        Good SEO companies do not have to reach out anonymously to potential clients. They have a proven track record and people reach out to them.

        Anyone who contacts me about SEO gets a very snarky email that guarantees they never contact me again.

    3. LDF*

      My company is an industry leader and don’t have the top spot for 100% of searches we’d like. Anyone promising they can get you to “come out at the top of any Google search” is lying.

    4. Malika*

      As Alison has stated, word of mouth referral and a proven track record is the best way of getting the right SEO company to work with.
      At my previous company, we got a freelancer with an outstanding reputation. So good, the CEO kept looking for a caveat. She was an absolute workhorse and made breakthroughs in visibility in months, that the marketing department had been struggling with for years.
      It is a field a lot of people think they can make an impact in after following a few courses. It is why there is such a glut in the market, and you need to sift carefully in order to find the right candidates for you.

  103. Pockey*

    Anyone have experience or advice on leaving a company within 2-3 months of hiring? All the advice I have found centers around fit or not it being a good opportunity or bad bosses/toxic environment. In my case, my job is something that is a good step for my career, a good well-known company, a truly diverse/accepting environment, and great bosses and coworkers (and might IPO in the next 2 years).

    The offer (do not have it yet and will not quit until I do but its a good chance I will get it) is a 40% increase in total compensation, relocates me to an area closer to friends and family and is somewhere I ultimately want to live and although is still a good career step (title isnt as impressive or flexible as current) but the company is one I LOVE and in an industry I am passionate about and uniquely knowledgeable about. Plus the increase in salary would completely change my life as I have been pretty underpaid for the past 3 years.

    I’m on a 4 person team so they would definitely feel the impact. I have just finished month 1 right now and still haven’t been really trained to do my main job function (I’m more helping define and redo internal processes and decks which is a bunch of side projects they needed done but didn’t have time to do before). So while they wouldn’t have really wasted training time on me they will likely have to start the lengthly (3 month) interview process again. Plus the company is super good with visibility, interest groups and setting up 1:1s so I’ve met probably about 20+ people in my org over Zoom and have been accepted as part of the team already and coworkers regularly slack me to chat, etc.

    Is there a way I can leave gracefully or make it easier on them and not seem like an opportunistic jerk? Its even more awkward because my boss and others regularly make the “1 week/10 days/20 days so far and you’re still here” joke.

    1. PollyQ*

      The fact that you haven’t been there very long and haven’t been trained that much means that your leaving won’t have as much of an effect on them. If you’d been there 6-9 months and they’d gotten up to speed on everything and then you left, they’d probably be more irritated. As you note, the person/team that hired you is likely going to be annoyed that they’ll have to start their search all over again, but there’s probably not much you can do to alleviate that. If you feel like it, maybe offer 3 weeks notice instead of just 2. Apologetically presenting the opportunity as one that was too good to pass up, especially with the relocation closer to family, may take a little of the sting out of it. Ultimately, it’s not that different from any time someone leaves a job — you’re making a choice that you think is better for you, and the corporate entity will almost certainly find a way to deal with it.

      1. Pockey*

        Thank you! I will definitely see if I can give 3 weeks instead of 2. That might workout better for me anyway since I would be relocating across country (I would be remote working at my new job but they do not allow remote work from my current location). Yeah I care less about the corporation but more the impact to the team but you are right they have the company to be a resource to them. Still need to shake off remaining feelings of feeling guilty about leaving jobs when if the company needed to let go of me for any reason they wouldn’t hesitate.

    2. ferrina*

      You’ll likely burn the bridge, but that’s okay. It sounds like the offer you will (hopefully!) be getting is a good one. Just make sure you’re apologetic, this “fell in to your lap, was too good to pass up, etc.”
      We’ve had a couple people come and go in short notice. Eyebrows go up, and you may not be welcome back at our company, but we haven’t cursed anyone’s name.

      1. Pockey*

        Thats good to hear thanks! My boss and org seem cool enough. If I can get in with this new company I would hope to be a lifer so a burned bridge/no employment would be fine but salting the earth I would be a bit sad at but I dont think that would be the case hopefully.

    3. Chauncy Gardener*

      Leave! Your job is not your charitable contribution for the year. Even if the pay was reasonable, you can still leave anytime you like, just as they can let you go anytime they like (if in the US and an at will employee)
      Enjoy all the great things this new role has to offer!

      1. Lizzie*

        And who knows, they may offer your job to another interviewee who just missed out and that person will be thrilled and will write in and say “I didn’t get a job I really wanted then the person who did get it is moving on and they have offered it to me!”

  104. 45yoNovice*

    Despite being in my 40s I’ve never conducted a successful job search!

    My first real job after college fell into my lap with no effort. I kept that job for 15 years before burning out and spending the next 4 years living off savings, being unemployed, taking art classes, raising kids, and receiving mental health treatment. When my savings ran out, I spent several months applying for jobs before settling for an entry-level position that paid just $35k — half my previous salary. So I wouldn’t exactly consider that job search “successful.”

    Three years later — though my title hasn’t changed and my pay has increased only a little — I find myself doing the same type of work that I previously earned $70k doing.

    I feel ready for a new job, but unprepared for another job search.

    Considering my lack of job-hunting experience and my problematic employment history, should I consider hiring a professional career coach/resume writer? What exactly do they do? How does the process work? How much does it cost? Is it worth it? Any other advice?

    1. irene adler*

      I would spend time with Alison’s archives on this site. You should read up on what makes for a good resume, cover letter, interview, job hunt tips, etc. That way you can do some/all of these things yourself -OR- you will be better able to spot a bad resume writer/career coach. There are bad ones out there who are full of advice that you won’t know if it’s good or bad unless you’ve read up on things here (like hand delivering your resume to the HR dept at the company where you want to apply for a job. Or insisting upon being interviewed without an appointment. Big no-no’s! Tailor the resume to the job description and include a good, thoughtful cover letter- Big yes to these!)

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      No advice, but a little solidarity. I’ve worked at two organizations in my 17 year career, for just over eight years each, and I started at both of them as agency temps (where I got cold-called, no interviewing) where they subsequently hired me on permanently. I had to interview for one promotion, but I’m absolute garbage at interviews and they based their decision mostly on my past performance anyway. Luckily I don’t want to go job-hunting at this point, because I don’t even know where I’d start anyway.

    3. NotaPirate*

      I would avoid paying (those may be scams) and see if you cant get some free classes online. For public speaking/interviewing try toastmasters or an improv group. Networking is really just learning to become comfortable starting up a conversation casually, any hobby club and that experience of meeting new people and talking briefly about yourself will help.

      https://www.businessinsider.com/best-online-classes-to-get-a-job

      Resumes you can definitely figure out online. Google the job you want and resume to see good examples. “Archeologist Resume examples”.

      But really, just start applying to jobs. The best experience in interviewing is doing an interview.

    4. WellRed*

      At the top of today’s open thread is a link to “here’s a bunch of advice to help you get a job” It’s a huge round up of Alison advice.

  105. Stumped*

    Thoughts on approaching an issue with an employee. I never want to be the person who polices what my team is doing on social media and never actively follow or friend anyone. We have an employee who has friended everyone and it was noticed that she is spending a lot of time actively trying to engage with our biggest competitor. I believe it’s important to network with likeminded professionals and wouldn’t prevent someone from doing that, but…this is our biggest competitor. The one who has beat us out of business, taken employees and pursued our clients. She likely doesn’t have the whole backstory but knows enough to know this is our biggest foe. It’s like, if you work at McDonalds do you regularly like content that Burger King posts, and try to get them to notice you? It feels very disrespectful and embarrassing as it’s all public. The optics are poor. Suggestions and feedback welcome.

    1. Pockey*

      I would want to know what social network, what is your industry and ultimately what is her goal?

      It’s very normal on Twitter for example to engage with everyone, even in a playful way. Have you seen the sassy back and forth the Burger King and Wendy’s twitter handles have had? LinkedIn, the posting and interactions would need to be more professional but a post acknowledging your competitors’ accomplishments in the industry and bringing that back to why she’s excited for your company or for growth in the industry is perfectly normal. In fact her being so in the loop with people and business of their company could help your company especially if she is in a position where she does work with clients or is in an org that makes marketing or strategy decisions. Not only that it makes her look like someone passionate for the industry and craft, not just a paper pusher.

      I’m in advertising so I’ve definitely been in that dynamic before with different agencies. However good work produced is good work and should be acknowledged and learned from rather than being like “boo competition, you suck”. They are winning your business and employees for a reason so if your company was smart they would be trying to learn and grow, not to necessarily emulate the competition but take what they are doing and do it better and specifically for your own company. Plus you don’t want it to come off in the industry that your employees and company are ultimately a second rate version of the competition who is better. You want to always look like a company open to new ideas, growth and becoming better for your clients, not just to stick it to the competition.

      All that said, it could be she is just trying to look good to them to get a job there but if other people have been stolen often, it doesn’t seem like she would need to even do all that effort. I think it’s unreasonable to say she cannot like a post. However, if its truly her just showering praises blindly when she does comment or post than you can have a talk about how you noticed and how she can elevate her post to make them more insightful or relevant to her followers incorporating things about your company or the industry. Mention how it looks “odd” to share so many posts or comments in a professional context without deeper meaning.

      1. pancakes*

        “Actively trying to engage” isn’t necessarily the same thing as bantering with a competitor, though. It could look pretty odd and inappropriate if the employee is just spinning their wheels and not getting any response at all, or trying to engage with the wrong people. When two brands interact on Twitter it’s generally two skilled social media managers doing what they were hired to do. It isn’t clear whether this employee’s job is meant to involve social media at all. How to handle it depends, I think, on whether they report to Stumped. If yes, it would be a fine thing to set up a meeting to talk about company expectations for social media use, but if not I think flagging it for their supervisor and letting them handle it is the way to go.

        1. Stumped*

          Great points pancakes. It’s not meant to involve social media – this is their personal page and it’s pretty obvious why they are trying to get their attention. And they do report to me indirectly. I think for me it’s like just because you can do something, doesn’t mean you should. Frankly, if I’m considering multiple people for promotions that’s going to be something that I’d consider. It’s yucky!

        2. Pockey*

          There’s a difference between representing a brand on social media, Twitter more specifically, as in posting as a voice FOR them and using your position in the company (by way of bio information) to establish yourself as a voice in the industry. Unless they are posting from the company’s handle or are explicitly authorized they should definitely NOT be speaking for the company. I only used the example of BK and Wendy’s to show that it is normal for companies and employees of companies to interact on social media. I agree though regardless you would need to do it without coming across as antagonistic or out of touch with industry norms.

          Also since I work in advertising I just wanted to go on a brief tangent: Brands get it wrong more than they get it right, on Twitter especially (it’s actually comical the rate they get it wrong). Social media is awesome in the way you don’t need to be a “skilled social media manager” to be proficient at social media and get results. All you need to know is your audience and timing (a bit of wit doesn’t hurt neither).

          The only thing that differentiates a social media manager with a 10M following on their company page from a 10M influencer page that they have a title that tells people they have the skills and tools to be able to digest and analyze what those social media interactions from a particular post means for a marketing campaign. It doesn’t mean they would be able to take a company from 0 to 10M followers or even produce any relevant results in growing that following. In fact the influencer is more likely to have more engagements and culturally relevant posts. (Note I’m talking industry influencers not Tiktok stars lol).

      2. Stumped*

        Our industry is very similar to yours and this isn’t banter like Burger King and McDonalds has. The platform is Instagram. Our attitude has never been to stick it the competition but frankly we’re competitive with this group. I think our staff can share expertise and build us up while refraining from engaging with our biggest competition. I wouldn’t approach it as “you can’t like their content” because I can’t prevent them from doing that, however, I like your wording of it’s odd to share so many posts or comments. If you are looking to be invested in by an employer you want to make sure you are sending the right message. It’s like, I don’t actively like my clients competitors work- I bet you don’t either!

        1. Time for Tea*

          This feels really weird to me. This is her personal social media? It’s not like the official Wendy’s/Burger King back-and-forth, it sounds more like a personal account.
          If this is an industry that provides a public good service (“adopt a kitten!”), I might not say anything. But any other sector, yeah, it definitely makes her look like she’s not invested in your company. I respect my competitors work, but I’m not doing the work of getting likes for them!
          Not sure if this is the best thing, but I’d be tempted to have a Serious Conversation about her career goals and her investment in the company. If she’s inexperienced, she probably doesn’t realize how obvious what she’s doing is.

          1. Stumped*

            Thank you Time for Tea. This is how I feel. And you are right, she may just be too green to realize it. It’s worth the conversation.

        2. Pockey*

          That’s surprising, and frankly even more odd would have at least thought it would have been Twitter or LinkedIn… Facebook at least. Instagram really isn’t the appropriate app for this.

          However, since it is their personal instagram page and not a platform where professionals typically interact, I would really be against telling them they flat out cannot like/comment/post to stories any of the competitors posts. They are free to like and post what they will on their personal page (that isn’t harmful/discriminatory). Plus, you have to go out of your way to see someone’s feed and especially likes on insta so I wouldn’t worry a whole lot about optics (other than internal of teammates being like wtf).

          However if they have public profile and are involving your company in their comments and making it obvious they are apart of your company you can 100% tell them not to post anything on social media about your company to your competitor, their affiliation or about your company in general. You might need to refer to HR handbook policy which actually could help you here and if you don’t have a policy or handbook with social media section I am sure if you talk to a rep they can give you something to tell your employee. It’s more reasonable and realistic to tell her to remove affiliation from her name/bio/posts to your company rather than say she can’t post about the other company at all especially on her personal page. It’s one thing if she’s coming off out of touch just to your team, its another if shes making the company seem odd.

          1. Stumped*

            Yes, it’s her personal account so I would never tell her what she can and cannot post. But it’s like the freedom of speech argument. You can say what you want but you can’t control how other people feel or react to it. If you want your company to feel that you are invested you have to pull back on some stuff.

            1. Pockey*

              I totally get where you are coming from. However IF it’s a purely personal and *nothing* that affiliates them with your company in anyway on their instagram posts or bio (and they aren’t antagonizing or harassing the competition), I would drop it. Focus on how their performance/actions *at work* or on professional platforms like LinkedIn come off to you as invested.

              Otherwise you come off as another boss who is wildly out of touch with social media. They don’t owe you nor the company any kind of investment on their personal page they post on personal time. They can be the other company’s #1 fan and want to work there someday, as long as they are preforming and come motivated to do their job at work, it really shouldn’t be a problem.

              1. Stumped*

                I mean her Instagram handle lists my company as her employer though. And just because someone is a boss doesn’t mean they are wildly out of touch with social media. That’s delving in an ageism argument. The fact is my employee is “flirting” with our competitor on social media. It’s not an entirely great look.

                1. Pockey*

                  I didn’t attach a certain generation to it, you can be out of touch with social media at any age and be someone’s boss. I know people from all generational categories who don’t care for or utilize social media for any particular reason. It’s not an uncommon occurrence though, even if there is an age trend to it, which is why I brought it up.

                  You are right though, it’s not a good look but ONLY because they have your company’s handle in their name. You have full rights to tell them to remove it from their handle and any company affiliation, just not on what they post (as long as it doesn’t violate any internal policies or EEOC regulations). But please don’t judge their motivation, performance or promotion potential on their being a big fan of your competitor on social media no matter how you personally feel about it.

                  If shes really *that* unmotivated and not invested in your company it will come across in her attitude, performance and work quality at work. You aren’t paying her to be your cheerleader on her personal time. I have definitely bad mouthed a former company of mine on my twitter plenty while I worked for them (no personal nor work info nor pictures of me and I followed no one from my company/industry). If my manager for some crazy reason found out, sure they wouldn’t have been happy at all but if they questioned my motivation or commitment I would have been upset as I consistently got “outstanding/above and beyond” on performance reviews and was heavily involved in ERGs and mentor programs. My opinion of the company’s unethical practices on my anonymous twitter didn’t impact my job performance or involvement with the company (I enjoyed my actual job function & team).

                  If you make this into “A Thing” shes just either going to block you and her coworkers (and that would really be “A BIG THING” for the team dynamic) or make a separate page where she can do what she wants (and block you all from that).

                  All in all I’d focus on her removing affiliation from the company on any non-professional account and have HR back you up on messaging: “Sansa it seems as you use this account more for your personal interests and thoughts than work/networking so please remove your affiliation to the company especially as you are engaging with competitors”. If she counters on her making a separate professional account then you can have a conversation (good to have spoken to HR!) on the type of interactions your company deems appropriate and control that.

                  My last post on this so good luck on this and have a good weekend. :)

  106. Workerbee*

    How have you convinced your current workplace to let you work from home permanently?

    When COVID is more manageable with vaccines, I’ll be expected to return. I alone among the small workforce (which was sent home in March, then dragged back in May!) have still been at home because I have a medical exemption.

    But I don’t want to go back, because the open office structure and heavy meeting mentality makes for a day of constant interruption for useless reasons. I so much prefer working from home. I get everything done much more efficiently. and my job is remote compatible. Yet this is a traditional, “must be in the office because the office is here to be in / you should be grateful we built this lovely place for you to work in” mentality I’m facing,

    If you have language and reasons that have worked for you, please do share.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I am holding my breath on this.
      Pre-Pandemic, my company made anyone who lived within 50 miles of the office come in at least 4 days per week, and your day of WFH could not be Monday or Friday. Humph! Since Covid, we’ve all gone WFH except for specific onsite personnel who have to be onsite, or as a need to use the office basis. I want to stay WFH and only come in for meetings or necessary activities, because it’s been proved that work all continues just fine without having to come in like that.

      1. Workerbee*

        Yeah, the real stickler at my place may very well be the old-fashioned (as it were) everyone-must-be-on-campus schtick, even over actual efficiency. The way these people lounge about in meetings…

  107. YRH*

    I’m on an interview panel in a couple of weeks. It is for a half administrative half llama grooming position. Zero of the candidates being interviewed have a one page resume and most of the candidates have more than two pages. Is this normal? In case additional context helps, I work at a organization that requires completing a detailed profile in addition to a resume and cover letter.

    1. Decidedly Me*

      Do you specify that you prefer a one page resume? We do that, but will still get longer ones, with some acknowledging the fact that they did this despite our preference. One person recently said they did because they are super proud of what they’ve done and want to showcase it. It was so hard to follow :(

      Generally, the greater than one page resumes I see could easily be one page, but a lot of people just aren’t good at them.

    2. NotaPirate*

      Regardless of what forms and profile the company has me fill out, I don’t take that info off my resume. In my experience interviewers often don’t see the online form things, just the resume handed to them. So even if your form was very detailed, I am not going to have deleted sections of my resume.

      One page resume pretty standard for entry level, fresh out of highschool, or college. Longer for anything else. Unless you work 10 years in one job and 15 in another, the work history alone is going to add up over a career.

      Academia in particular has multi-page resumes so publication history can be shared. I would imagine other fields have similar norms. I’m not personally familiar with llama care industry so I can’t tell you for your field.

    3. BlueBelle*

      Why does a resume need to be one page? That is old school thinking. Anyone with more than 5-7 years of experience is likely to be more than one page. The profiles that people fill out on the recruiting sites aren’t usually seen by anyone but recruiting. After HR/recruiting does the initial screening then they forward the resume to the hiring manager and the hiring committee. The profiles that are filled in online are usually filled with more personal information that not everyone should see; SSN, disability disclaimer, race, criminal history.

    4. YRH*

      Thanks everyone. I agree with a lot of what has been said. I don’t think online profiles should take the place of a resume, though I also tend to include everything in an online profile rather than edit and tailor like I do in a resume. I also don’t think resumes need to be limited to a page, though my understanding was that they should be limited to two pages unless you were in an industry where it’s common to list grants and publications and such like academic or a really high level position (neither of which apply here). The entire profiles were passed on in this case.

  108. Home Away from Work*

    I’ve been with my (very large, multi-division) company for 11 months, and received an email asking if I’d consider leaving a Glassdoor review. No pressure. I like my job and love my new team, but am am ambivalent about writing a review.

    Do people really read these, and take them into consideration when job hunting? What do you look for?

    1. Decidedly Me*

      I’ve read them – I’m usually curious about culture fit.

      From the interviewer side, I’ve had a lot of people tell me that they applied after seeing our Glassdoor reviews since folks seem really happy here.

    2. NotaPirate*

      Weird that they are asking for one. But in my circles people tend to use glassdoor reviews. We’re looking for is this company actually a good place to work? Interviews give you a a really sanitized view of a workplace and it’s hard to judge. What is the culture like? Are you happy working there? Do you get along with your coworkers? Are you well compensated? Do people actually use their time off? How much unexpected late nights are there? How’s your health insurance? Have you had frequent reorganizations/changing department structures? Do you have to attend company culture meetings weekly? That sort of thing.

    3. Box of Kittens*

      I 100% read Glassdoor reviews. I do try to take them with a grain of salt, but they’re a regular part of my research process as I’m applying for jobs.

    4. Home Away from Work*

      It’s difficult because the company is so big. So much of my contentment comes from the department and people that I am working with

  109. Not My Real Name*

    In my state I qualify for the vaccine in the current phase (1A) because of my BMI (<40). I'm in my 40's, and seem healthy other than my weight. I registered for the vaccine a few weeks ago, thinking it would be several more weeks before it would get to me, but I was able to make my appointment for next week.

    I'm starting to feel guilty because I know there are older or sicker people who haven't been able to make their appointment yet. I know there is some backlash about "obese" people and smokers being able to get vaccinated so early. I would qualify in phase 1C for my job. Everyone else I work with (besides those who qualified and got their first dose already because of their ages) expects to get vaccinated in 1C. I don't want to tell my coworkers that I'm getting vaccinated because they'll ask how I qualified and I really don't want to talk about my weight at work. I've had clients ask me about my spouse's vaccination, so we have partners here who have no problem sharing info about my life and I feel so uncomfortable thinking about them having conversations about me like that.

    I'm considering not telling them when I get vaccinated, or just cancelling my appointment for now and re-registering for 1C. I don't know what to do.

    1. Another JD*

      Go get vaccinated. You absolutely don’t have to tell your coworkers which medical condition qualifies you for 1A status.

    2. WellRed*

      Get vaccinated. no need to discuss with coworkers or keep it vague. and I really doubt they are gonna sit around and say, “NNRN got vaccinated already. Do you think it’s because she’s obese. whisper.whisper.”
      If they do, I am truly sorry and they are truly awful. But don’t cancel your appt.

      1. Not My Real Name*

        They are very gossipy, so I’m sure it would be a conversation. I wish I didn’t care! I think I’m just not going to tell them. Hopefully it doesn’t make me sick.

    3. Always Late to the Party*

      I think you should get vaccinated as soon as you can, because the more shots in arms the sooner this nightmare ends for everyone. I understand why you feel guilty, but I think it’s misplaced. You personally did not make the schedule for vaccines. You’ve been told “it’s your turn” and you are taking your turn. If you get it now, that’s one more appointment available in Phase 1C for someone who needs it.

      If your coworkers have boundary issues (which it sounds like) don’t tell them! If you choose to tell them you could say “I was eligible due to a health issue” and if they pry give them a very confused look and say “I’d rather not get into it…anyway, did you see Fergus’s teapot report this month?”

    4. PollyQ*

      Definitely keep your appointment, and I say that as someone with more serious “underlying conditions” who hasn’t been able to get vaccinated yet. The process for distribution will never be 100% fair or accurately applied, but everyone who gets a vaccination is contributing to the wellness of everyone else. Don’t feel at all obligated to discuss this with colleagues, just as you might keep any other medical information about yourself private. Not their business, not something they have any need to know.

    5. NotaPirate*

      New York Times has a really good article out: Get vaccinated as soon as it is offered to you. Not getting vaccinated when offer doesn’t guarantee that someone else is going to get it. It just gums up the process. This is not the moment for polite “oh no you first” “no I insist” “No you first I dont mind”. Reframe it in your head, you’re making sure this keeps rolling out smoothly by getting yours when offered.

    6. Sylvan*

      Go for it. If you have the opportunity to get vaccinated, you may as well take it. You don’t have to tell anyone about it unless you need PTO, in which case, you can make the usual vague noises about a medical appointment.

      If older and sicker people are on your mind, consider that getting vaccinated could possibly make you safer for older and sicker people to be around.

    7. Gray Panther*

      Thanks for bringing this up, Not My Real Name. I’m relieved to hear the responses.
      I got home about 10 minutes ago from receiving my first Moderna shot at my medical clinic, and before getting it I spent a long time wondering if I should. There are so many others who should be ahead of me in line for the vaccination—my only qualifier is that I’m well over age 65; and I work at home, have little to no public contact, and have no other health problems that would affect the decision—is it ethical for me to go ahead and accept the shot?
      The comments here along the lines of “get the dang shot, it’s going to help everyone out” are exactly what I needed to hear today, and am now reassured that I did the right thing.
      Just for the record: haven’t had any aftereffects, dizziness, or soreness at the injection site—at least, so far.

      1. Not My Real Name*

        I’m definitely feeling better about getting mine next week. I’m glad you were able to get yours!!

    8. Bob_NZ*

      1. Get vaccinated. Other people in this thread have articulated the ‘why’ of this really beautifully.

      2. Why on earth do your colleagues need to know if you’ve been vaccinated? I’m really struggling to understand this – do you have the kind of job where only vaccinated people can do certain customer-facing tasks, for example? If not, your vaccination status is absolutely none of their business.

      1. Not My Real Name*

        I work in a small CPA firm, we’ve been open the whole time (that’s a whole other issue to me) and do still have some clients coming in. Nobody NEEDS to know if I’m vaccinated, but it’s just one of the things we talk about so I know it will come up. One of the partners today just asked if my parents got appointments yet (they’ve never met my parents).

    9. 45yoNovice*

      It’s not selfish to get vaccinated when you are eligible. Your getting vaccinated helps to ensure that hospital beds and ventilators remain available for people who need them.

      But I agree you shouldn’t tell anyone. That’s private medical info.

    10. Donkey Hotey*

      Get the shot. Get the shot. Get the shot. Get the shot. Get the shot. Get the shot. Get the shot.
      (Please.)
      Just as you don’t have to tell your co-workers why you qualify, you also don’t have to tell them you got it. Or even, wait a few months and then mention, “Yeah, I got mine back in the Spring.”

    11. Nicki Name*

      Get the shot. It’s available to you now because you’re at a higher risk than your co-workers. “Healthier” and “sicker” isn’t a one-dimensional spectrum; every disease interacts with other health conditions differently. You happen to be one of the unlucky people with a vulnerability that covid-19 will exploit.

      Deflecting awkward questions from co-workers is probably way better than going to the hospital with covid.

      (I’m in the same boat as you– 40s, female, and just learned that I’ll be qualifying earlier than a lot of people in my state only due to my weight. I’m giving this pep talk to myself right now.)

    12. Smh RN*

      As a healthcare worker waiting for her vaccine, please get vaccinated! Every person done helps herd immunity!! I’m glad you were able to book one!,

    13. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      Just get it and don’t worry about it. I’m obese too and I will get it when it’s offered to me. Someone smarter than me decided that I’m at higher risk and I’m not going to argue with that out of concern that someone else might need it more. Just because I’m fat (with all the attendant bad implications like being lazy and greedy and entirely to blame for any health problems I ever experience) doesn’t mean I don’t deserve a vaccine.

      If you don’t want to tell your colleagues, then don’t. There’s no reason for them to know anyway.

  110. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

    Did anyone see Dear Prudence, “Help! I’m Really Tired Of Following ‘Reasonable’ ADA Guidelines For My Coworker,” on Tuesday? It really reminded me of the letter writer here a few years back whose coworker got to take a huge amount of time off and leave in the middle of the day with no notice, and the letter writer had to work pretty much around the clock and every weekend and cancel her vacations to cover for him, and the employer said it had to be that way due to an ADA accommodation for him. I wonder if the Dear Prudence letter writer replaced the AAM letter writer at the same company!

  111. Epsilon Delta*

    Is anyone a self employed software or web developer? I’d love to hear about your experiences. How did you transition from working as an employee to being self employed and finding your own work? How much freedom do you have to set your own workload and daily hours/schedule and work location? What type and size of projects do you work on? What languages and framworks do you use? How many hours do you work per week?

    Some background on why I’m interested: I’m currently employed full time as a software developer and in the next 10-15 years I might consider transitioning to doing some freelance work part time as part of early retirement. Since I would be retired, I would be planning to support myself financially through other means, not through freelancing, so the financial side of things is not the focus of my question. My goal would be to keep my skills somewhat up to date in case I had to go back to working full time, and because I do generally enjoy programming (just not anywhere near 40 hours a week!). Since my early retirement plans include a lot of travel, I would want a lot of flexibility in my schedule, both day to day as well as being able to not work for weeks or months at a time between projects.

  112. Made a Mistake*

    I messed up on something that’s bad, but everyone says is understandable, and I don’t know how to feel about that.

    A direct report came to me and told me something that happened with another employee that upset them. The overall situation is a really weird one and something that isn’t likely to ever occur again, but the thing they reported is something that feasibly could happen again (in the grand scheme of things, not specifically to this person), but hopefully never does. I’m better equipped for dealing with a next time if ever necessary.

    I didn’t know the right way to take this information. I asked some questions that weren’t the right ones and didn’t ask some that I should have. The employee didn’t want the info to go further at that time, so I kept it to myself. They later reported it to some other folks in the company, which I’m happy about, as I really wanted to take more action at that time and felt like it wasn’t my place. I did the best that I could in the moment, while still knowing that I should have done better and I feel terrible.

    Everyone is on my side (and the reporting employee’s!). I totally could have done better, but wasn’t trained for that and we didn’t have some policies that could have helped (we will now). I keep being told from my boss (and other management) not to worry, that it’s ok, and I shouldn’t stress over what happened. That everyone has my back. This includes from my direct report – they understand the situation too and the two of us are totally fine. I know everyone is telling the truth.

    I personally feel bad, though. I wanted to do better and didn’t know how. I’m trying to let it go, but almost wish I was in trouble so the external consequences matched the internal beating myself up.

    Has anyone gone through something like this at work or even personally? Do I just need to give myself time to forgive myself? Not sure if this is better for the weekend thread – feel free to delete if so.

    1. NotaPirate*

      Give it time. No one blames you. If its eating at you maybe see if there’s any youtube videos of management seminars so next time you are more prepared. I know the one time I had to report a coworker it was hella awkward but my boss basically had some mental checklist he went thru of things he had to ask, and then we went from there.

    2. ferrina*

      Your boss and other management confirmed that you did everything that a reasonable person would have done. That has to be enough.
      It sucks to mess up (or feel like you messed up). The best thing to do is to keep moving forward. You need to show that you can mess up and move on- you mention that you “keep being told”, so you might need to focus on moving on right now.
      Privately, it’s okay to reflect and get some lessons out of it. The key is that you need to get better from this reflection, not worse- if you feel it dragging you in to depression or circular thinking, refocus on something else. Guilt is only useful when it’s transformative- not when it’s habitual. I made a really, really bad judgement call 12 years ago and it still haunts me from time to time, but each time I use it to say “Am I the same person that would make this mistake again? How do I focus on being the person I want to be?”

    3. bunniferous*

      A person who never makes a mistake is a person who never does anything. Did you learn from this? Yes! Do you have the tools you need to be successful next time? Sounds like that has now been put in place. You may also want to frame this as something you were not trained for and, well, now you are! It’s really ok!

  113. Short and Stout*

    I have been in my current position from since 2010. Now, for Various Reasons, I’m considering asking my employer for a demotion to my pre-2010 position.

    Assuming it goes through, what would be the best way to show a voluntary demotion on a resume or in an online profile? Should I explicitly show the demotion (Teapot Designer, then Manager of Teapot Design, then Teapot Designer)? Or should I omit the higher title and pretend it never happened?

    1. NotaPirate*

      Can you negotiate your new job title be slightly different? Then just make sure you have good bullet points under each. And be prepared to explain the transition. Peter Principle is basically what you are describing. Could also just explain as stress or external things (family?) needing more time leading to transition to 3rd role…

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I think 10 years in a position is way too long to omit it from your resume. Are you planning to job search in the near future? If so, maybe you could frame the reasons for the position change as the same reasons you’re looking for a new organization.

  114. Nervous New Grad*

    I posted last week asking for some advice on talking to my network connections and asking for application advice/resume reviews. I wanted to say thanks for the encouraging responses I got – and good news! I reached out to a couple of my connections and got some fantastic advice from one, and might be getting a referral from another.
    I did want to add one more question here – for the one who may be giving me a referral, are there any good ideas for ways to carry the conversation beyond just asking for a referral? I’d love to be able to discuss more with her and ask thoughtful questions, but having a hard time thinking of anything that wouldn’t be better asked in an interview, and I guess I’m also just still trying to train myself out of feeling awkward asking people for favors.

    1. NotaPirate*

      Dear Blah Blah, thanks for the referral, I wanted to follow up and let you know I got a lead on XYZ job. How’s your project on ABC going these days? Did you ever solve the flux capacitor issues?

  115. Derivative Poster*

    I’m considering moving to be closer to my office (although we’re still remote due to covid). I really like where I live now but the commute is pretty unreasonable. Have you moved to a less desirable location in order to be closer to work? If so, did you regret it?

    1. NotaPirate*

      With covid is there any chance your company will change to permanent flex WFH schedules? Mines talking 3 days in office, 2 days WFH.

      1. TiffIf*

        Mines talking 3 days in office, 2 days WFH.

        I hope my office allows us to do this! Or even better 2 in office, 3 WFH.

        Prior to Covid I already worked one day a week from home (usually every friday).

        I’ve been pretty vocal about wanting a 3/2 split of some kind when the office opens again.

      2. Derivative Poster*

        Good point! There seem to be noises about this kind of policy change at my employer although no clarity on the details so far. OTOH I feel like I’m a lot more productive in the office so I might be shooting myself in the foot career-wise if I tried to WFH most of the time. Hence wondering if I should just bite the bullet and move already….

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I have chosen places to live specifically to have as short a commute as feasible. In several cases, this meant having a 5-10 min driving commute which was ideal for me. It suited me fine, the places and communities I lived in were overall nice enough for me (mostly suburbs). Colleagues would choose to live further away to have a better location and just deal with a longer commute, so it’s very individual. And as much as I hate commuting, I wouldn’t live in a major city just to be close to a downtown office because I don’t enjoy city life at all.

      Are there more desirable places that would be a reverse commute to the office location? IME a 30-40 min drive in heavy stop-and-go traffic is horrible and draining, but a 30-40 min drive with minimum traffic all going speed limit or better is just fine.

      1. Derivative Poster*

        Absolutely agree on the stop-and-go traffic! I would have given up a long time ago if my commute involved much of that. I’ve been driving from Scenic Tourist Town to Blah Mid-Sized City (BMC) about an hour away (via interstate with little to no traffic). The commute to my last job was 1 hour door to door, but then I changed to a different employer in BMC. Because of new job’s location and parking hassle, the door to door is sometimes closer to 1.5 hours. Apparently my tipping point is somewhere between 1 and 1.5 hours.

    3. Anono-me*

      Is there a reason your office would never ever relocate?

      One of the covid-19 ripple effects that I expect to see in about a year or two is companies having smaller office spaces due to increased WFH and people sharing desks or hot desking. If your office does decide to offer WFH post covid-19, they might decide to downsize soon after.

      Also if the parking hassle is a big part of your commute unhappiness; that may decrease as a result of the inceases in WFH.

      Since you like your current home, and are remote, I would wait to see what changes the next year brings.

      (I would use the time to research neighborhoods in BMC. )

  116. ThePear8*

    Slight sanity check – someone, a fellow student, was recently telling me about a technical interview they had with my company. I think they’re a freshman or sophomore and are newer to technical interviews, and interviewing in general I guess, so they knew their solution wasn’t the best and could have been improved upon a lot. They told me at the end, the interviewer showed them another applicant’s solution and walked them through it as a way of getting feedback and seeing what they could improve on. This person was very grateful for the feedback and said it was delivered very graciously and respectfully, but it gave me pause. While I agree it’s fantastic if an interviewer is willing to give you some feedback, showing you another applicant’s solution is…odd? It doesn’t seem great to me to be essentially telling an applicant on the spot they didn’t make it and compare them to another one who was better.
    Also to give context, I didn’t know at first they were talking about my company, so I viewed it a little more candidly. I think in this case it’s more reflective of the interviewer than the company as a whole, and that was something I had also considered before knowing what company they were talking about as well, but am I right to think that in general, while certainly not a screaming red flag, this should give a little bit of pause?

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I don’t know, I think it’s refreshing that the interviewer was honest and helpful rather than holding on to the “air of mystery” around an interview. Why shouldn’t the applicant be allowed to know right then that they don’t have the skills to move forward, and even better, how to improve? I know we like to feel like the interviewers really had to think hard and it was a tough decision, but sometimes it’s immediately clear right in the interview that it isn’t a good fit and I think the interviewer is doing the applicant a good service by being straightforward. Especially in this case when it’s due to a technical skill, not an intangible quality. It would certainly be rude for an interviewer to whip out another candidate’s resume and say “well this person went to a better college and is nicer and funnier than you”, but comparing a technical solution seems fair and helpful to me.

      1. ThePear8*

        In talking with the original person, I do agree that it was fantastic the interviewer took the time to give them honest feedback! And they said they felt it was nice knowing they didn’t move forward because at least they weren’t stuck waiting and wondering and worrying how they did, and thinking about it more I agree with them – it was a kindness for the interviewer to let them know then they didn’t meet the requirements they were looking for. I guess in my head I was somewhat equating comparing the solution with another applicant’s as similar to comparing resumes – that somehow this other candidate has a leg up on you or is somehow better than you, and that comparison instead of just a sample solution kind of feels weird to me.

    2. Derivative Poster*

      I suspect this would read a lot differently to you if the interviewer presented it as a sample solution rather than another applicant’s. Presumably the candidate would get the same benefit but without the potential weirdness.

      1. ThePear8*

        Yes exactly, and I said exactly this when talking with the original person – that I felt it was great they got the feedback and overall it sounds great, but the fact that the solution wasn’t a sample solution but another applicant’s felt weird to me.

    3. PollyQ*

      I don’t see any problem with this at all. Yes, it’s telling them they’re not likely to have gotten the job, but that info would’ve been given eventually anyway. And saying that the solution came from an applicant also lets the student know that the employer isn’t looking for some pie-in-the-sky platonic ideal of a solution, they’re looking for one that an actual person in the same position came up with. This sounds like a pretty kind thing to do for someone who’s still a student. It’s maybe a little condescending for someone who’s further along in their career, though.

      1. ThePear8*

        This is a really nice way to frame it :) As I mentioned in my reply above to Tina Belcher’s Less Cool Sister, I ultimately agree it was a kindness for the interviewer to let them know on the spot they didn’t meet the requirements and save them time worrying and wondering how they did, I guess in my head I just equated comparing technical solutions almost like comparing resumes – but I like the framing of it making it seem more realistic and achievable so it’s not as though the company is trying to trick you or anything, that’s a much more positive approach!

  117. marketinggamer*

    How do you write a career changer resume? I’m looking at switching careers from marketing to game design, and I sat down to write my resume today, but… I have no idea where to start. Most of the accomplishments from my CV aren’t at all relevant to my new field, but when I remove them it looks pretty sparse.

    I would split my resume into relevant experience and other experience, but I have bits and pieces of experience within my non-relevant experience (to do with events and particularly creative projects where I used my gaming ideas), and really I don’t have any paid experience that’s explicitly relevant, so it would be volunteer projects and stuff from college. Any tips?

    1. meteorological spring*

      Have a strong cover letter that explains why you’d be great at the job and why you’re interested in a career change. Use your resume to highlight transferable skills from your jobs; they don’t have to involve gaming if they demonstrate you’ve done the same kind of thing in a different industry.

  118. Am I the crazy here?*

    My work has started sending out a car full of office folk to do volunteer work on slow mornings. It’s a nice gesture & out of character for the organization. In a non pandemic time, I would consider going but as it is, 6 or more people in one vehicle, especially knowing many of them don’t wear masks outside of work as a form of protest, just does not sit well with me. I feel like that is a good enough reason to say no thank you to that outing & just donate money if I feel strongly enough about the charity in question.

    Would y’all go though?

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I would absolutely not get in a vehicle with 6 people if even *one* of them isn’t going to wear a mask while in it. And if you think they won’t wear them onsite (any chance the organization will require it?) then I’d also decline.

      1. Am I the crazy here?*

        That’s a good point. They sent out a picture and only half of them were wearing masks at the event. Ay dios mio.

    3. Girasol*

      Our volunteer crew usually shares a truck going out to a work site but since covid they’re arranging worksites where we can each pull up in our own separate (non 4WD) cars. That works. I wouldn’t share a confined vehicle space with people masked or unmasked at this point.

    4. pancakes*

      No, and I don’t agree it’s a nice gesture for people who refuse to wear masks to be sent out anywhere in the community. If the company wants to show concern for other people’s well-being it should start with not foisting known anti-maskers on anyone. This is a great way to get extremely negative PR in addition to possibly spreading a virus.

    7. Bagpuss*

      No. Not if it means being in a car with others, *especially* if they, or any of them, were people I knew, or had reason to believe, were not good at following the rules around masks etc.
      And not if the volunteer work meant being around people.

  119. Sylvan*

    So, I’m going back to the office after spending some time working from home and not liking the WFH situation while fully embracing the daytime pajamas situation. I really can’t imagine willingly wearing regular pants every single day again. Anyone know of especially comfortable clothes for work?

    For context: I’m a tall, average-sized woman who lives in the US. I’m flexible on my clothing budget. The dress code at work is “business casual,” but it’s actually just casual. Athletic clothes are off-limits, but not much else is. We can wear T-shirts without graphics, jeans without rips, and sneakers.

    1. WellRed*

      Right before lockdown I bought a pair of Betabrand pants and work them for two days straight (conference). I found them very comfortable and held their shape. I’m average height, size.

      1. Sally*

        I wear leggings under floaty skirts and dresses. It’s comfortable, my legs stay warm, and I still look professional.

    2. Not A Manager*

      I have a pair of AG brand black jeans that are a thin cotton/modal blend and very soft. They are more comfortable than sweatpants but dress up like any black jean.

      I also have several Sanctuary brand leggings. The ones I have are prints that could be on actual slacks, and they have pocket-like detailing at the top, so I feel comfortable wearing them with shorter tops like a slack as well as with longer ones like a legging. They dress up nicely with pretty flats and a button-down or a sweater.

    3. The teapots are on fire*

      I bought fabulous Eileen Fisher knit slacks on EBay (they’re silly expensive new) that have a zipper fly and pockets and look like pants, but comfortable as knits. I also bought some flowy, wide-legged trousers at Target. They’re not jeans, but they definitely qualify as secret pajamas. I was wearing them to work pre-pandemic and I’ll be very disappointed if I learn I wasn’t getting away with it.

    4. ratatatcat*

      I’d recommend Uniqlo; they’ve got a lot of comfy but still professional looking options. I have a pair from a previous line & look pretty much like plain black knit pants if you cover up the draw-string waistline; I’ve even worn them in my suits-oriented office and gotten away with it.

  120. Not being bullied anymore*

    A little late in the day, so not sure I’ll get a response after 700+ comments before me, haha…

    I have finally been moved away from working directly with a person on my team who was bullying me because a new manager came in and saw his atrocious behavior first-hand. Which is great! However, the bullying was going on for the better part of a year (right before pandemic hit) the long-term duration has caused me some sort of PTSD, and although the daily tormenting isn’t happening anymore, I’m able to see just how bad the situation was with this person.

    As I process what has happened, I’m struggling with finding the motivation to do the work.

    Any suggestions on finding my mojo again is appreciated.

    1. WellRed*

      It might just take a little time? Or, if needed, can you access some counseling if you think that might help? Wouldn’t need to be a massive commitment, I’ll bet.

    2. Choggy*

      Does your company have an employee assistance program you can use to schedule some time with a professional who can assist with processing what happened to you? I’m wondering as well are you upset at all that you were only moved away from working directly with this person instead of there being larger consequences (like firing them)? Could that be what is causing you to lack the motivation to do the work because you felt unsupported for so long? I’m sorry this happened to you, for that it’s worth, there is no reason for bullying of any kind at work (or anywhere else for that matter). I hope you can find someone to discuss your very valid feelings about the situation.

      1. Anono-me*

        This, and ferrina’s advice to be gentle and patient with yourself.

        I also wonder if you feel ___ that you were moved, instead of the bully. I would find it frustrating. It may be for the best however, as the old team leaders failed you and hopefully you now are part of a team that is better in lots of ways.

        1. Not being bullied anymore*

          I’m still part of the same team, I just don’t have to work with him directly. I do feel frustrated by this, but it’s also created enough space for me to start to heal and see how I need to leave completely. The team culture is very toxic, this bully is one of those narcissists who is very charming to others and in private is horrible toward his target. So no one knows what’s going on except my manager and only because the bully felt comfortable enough to yell and berate me in front of her. I’m well-respected in the company and my challenge is not to self-sabotage my reputation as I’m so destabilized and fragile, gaining back my footing is an uphill battle since he’s still there causing chaos in the background. After writing that, I just need to find new work. I’m fighting against the current by staying where I am and need to focus on building myself up so I can find something new.

    4. ferrina*

      Hugs! Recovery is always longer than we think it will be. It’s great that you feel safe enough to start processing what happened! I’m so glad you’re in a safer space.

      My advice is to be gentle with yourself. It’s okay not to be 100% right now- a significant portion of your brain is preoccupied with processing a traumatic event (i.e., bullying). Get work done however you can, and give yourself mental permission to cut back if you need it (pushing deadlines a little later, not volunteering for projects as much). This won’t go on forever, but it won’t be fixed in an instant. Good luck!

  121. Mrs. C*

    It looks like part of this weekend will be a time for me to revamp my resume, so it’s more accomplishments-focused. I’ll be looking through the Ask A Manager archives, but also wanted to hear other people’s thoughts: how would I best indicate my management experience in an accomplishments-based way? My past companies never did performance reviews or any other kind of formal feedback process. I can honestly say ‘never had direct reports complain about me’. My supervisees weren’t the effusive types, so all I’d hear directly from them when I asked for feedback was that everything was going well. Have any advice on how you’ve successfully framed your past management experience?

    1. NotaPirate*

      Focus on outcomes. What resulted because of your good management skills? Were there more productivity than before you took the roll, measured in output or savings etc? Did you hire or train these individuals? Did any more on to cool things? Address the scope too like,

      Title (Manager of ABC)
      -supervised a team
      -supervised a team of 26 people
      -supervised a team of 26 people responsible for the 3 state district

      One of those sounds way better. But keep going,
      -Supervised the tri-state district team of 26 people, leading to 60% efficiency increase in ABC
      -Supervised the tri-state district team of 26 people, leading to 60% efficiency increase in ABC by implementing new training strategies XYZ

  122. Choggy*

    Does anyone use coaching software? A request came in from one of our customer service managers who is looking for a way to capture coaching sessions for customer service reps provided by the trainers. The software would be database-driven to include the coaches and coachees, and categories would include Attendance, Adherence, Performance, Quality Assurance, Service Level and Call Handling. Additional areas are Will vs Skill (not sure what that means) and a Comments section. Just looking for some ideas if anyone has any. Thanks!

  123. Annie*

    My fiance recently started in a sales-type job where he has a certain quota to hit each day. On Wednesday, his manager was singing his praises about his performance, only to pull a Jekyll-and-Hyde the next day (yesterday) and rip my fiance a new one when he was under quota and give him a verbal warning – which was totally unexpected, because his manager has generally been understanding about the fact that everyone has “off” days. Today, my fiance was under quota again, and his manager gave him a written warning and threatened to put him on a PIP. Granted, two days in a row under-quota isn’t great, but doesn’t it seem a little extreme to escalate to that level after only two days when my fiance’s otherwise been a pretty consistent performer? I thought PIPs only came into play after a consistent, long-term lack of performance. I’m not in sales, but am I totally off base here??

    1. NotaPirate*

      How sure are you that you’ve got the full story from your fiance? There may be other workplace issues happening.

      A lot of sales jobs are hyper competitive, manager may be under pressure from above. How much under his quota matters too. 10 bucks vs 100,000 bucks.

      Either way sounds like if this is bothering fiance as much as it’s bothering you they should get to job hunting, the job doesn’t seem great.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Wow, your poor fiance. The only jobs I can think of that have a daily (as opposed to monthly/quarterly/annual) sales quota are like call center-type jobs, which aren’t known for having fair and professional management. I don’t think it’s normal to be put on a formal PIP after such a short dip away from strong performance, but it might be typical for this kind of job.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      A PIP this quickly would be unusual at most places. But not at telesales “boiler rooms.”
      Some sales or telesales focused places are just this way with the daily sales quotas, and to be honest, probably aren’t great jobs and have high turnover. They’re just brutal that way.

      I doubt your fiance is doing anything wrong, but these types of places will demand quotas like that, and quotas may change every week or month. Likely, the boss has to make a monthly quota for February and is pushing to do that or else people are out.

  124. Captain Marvel*

    I am venting and asking for advice.

    I’m on a committee who is working on a program to draw in more people in our industry as part of a diversity initiative. The industry very stereotypically male and white. As a WOC, I jumped at the chance to be a part of it (especially because I was really rubbed the wrong way when I first came into the industry). We’re offering a learning and networking opportunity to university students, and we’re requiring them to submit an application to attend as space is limited and we expect a lot of interest. There are more reasons why we have an application that I’m not going to get into, but trust that it makes the most sense.

    My task force came up with an idea to evaluate these applications without any identifying information showing. So someone not on the selection panel, but in our team would remove identifying information (such as names, emails, etc.) before the panel could review them. We don’t have access to an HR database so we’re basically collecting these applications via a SurveyMonkey-esque form so this was what we could do with the funding we have.

    We presented the guidelines to the selection panel, and you would have thought we suggested that we burn them and pick the ones we want by how pretty the smoke pattern was. Two people in particular were upset by the idea. One of them said we were discriminating against white students and certain universities by doing it this way and we were taking the diversity and inclusion initiative into affirmative action territory. (I still cannot with that one.) Another told us we may as well just ask them to pick their favorite number and we’ll only address them that way. Our task force was floored; no one expected this to be a big deal- I mean there are studies that show that unconscious bias is a thing and we talked about this before!

    Long story short, those two removed themselves from the selection panel and don’t want any part in it. Now we’re at risk of losing the rest of them.
    I kind of don’t care? I’m so angry about the whole experience and I can’t quite articulate why. After that mess of a meeting, my task force talked about reverting it back to the way we used to do it, which I was and still am strenuously opposed to. My question is…what should I do? Is this worth arguing for? It’s true that we’re doing it this way to try to have more diversity in our event, but why is that a bad thing? That was literally the point of having this event in the first place! I am so tired.

    1. NotaPirate*

      Networking event for students and its such a big deal they have to apply?? Curious at your industry now. Why is removing names and emails such a big deal to them? Did they promise favors already to specific people? Or is it just offense at the idea that they might be biased by names?? Why are people so invested in this selection process for A NETWORKING EVENT ?? Are you Google??? Apple??

      What happens if they all quit? Can you replace them?

      1. Captain Marvel*

        I honestly think they would do us all a favor if they quit, that’s how little I trust them now.
        My task chair doesn’t want to ruffle their feathers, because they were picked by senior leadership to be on the panel.

        I don’t want to be too specific, but basically we have so much initial interest that we already don’t have the room to accommodate the students who already reached out to us. So it was decided that this was only fair way to determine who could attend since we also wanted to reach out to schools not already in our network.

        1. Anono-me*

          My first few draft responses to your post were not suitable for AAM .

          1. These people are being awful and ridiculous and I did a little happy dance at reading that they had resigned.

          2. There nothing wrong with fighting a loosing battle purely for the sake of principle; but it is not always required either. I think the spoons theory for chronic medical issues might be worth considering as you decide how much more you want to invest in this battle.

          3. Who are the higher ups who thought that these two bleeps should be involved in anything to do with improving equallity of access? I would be careful around them. Either they are so dim that they are a danger to themselves and others or this was deliberate.

          1. This was deliberate.*

            Captain Marvel needs to do some thinking about how much risk of being labeled a “troublemaker” she is will to subject herself too. Also, how rewarding will she find it if she succeeds in introducing more diversity to her employer’s org?

            Based on the info here, it appears that the higher-ups tried to design a farce, sabotaging the process from the very beginning by seeding the selection committee with bigots.

            But it could be that Captain Marvel could craft a communication to the higher-ups that could keep the initiative alive, if she has the kind of relationship with them she would need. It comes back to risk vs. reward.

    2. SentientAmoeba*

      My biggest concern would be why these two people had such strong reactions to the concept of evaluating candidates without their identifying information. Isn’t the argument always that diversity initiatives aren’t needed if the best should be the ones selected?
      Sounds like someone in your org realized there is a problem that needs to be solved but didn’t get the necessary buy in from the sources of the problem.

    3. Girasol*

      Sounds like the company is not really ready for a diversity initiative. They just want to be able to say “yes, we have a diversity program!” (because all the good companies are doing it) and then go back to the same old way, same old assumptions. If there’s other evidence that your job isn’t real but just for show, you might want to move on to where you can be of more value.

      1. Captain Marvel*

        That’s exactly what I was thinking. I’m fairly confident my job isn’t for show, but less certain that someone didn’t pick up my resume, see my name and go “oh! A Minority!” (which is what someone on the panel said to me after asking for my last name during our presentation). This selection panel incident is legitimately the first time I have seen anyone act this way in my organization.

        Forgot to mention, that now I am also thinking of removing myself from this committee. My thinking is, why would I want any other BIPOC to work for our industry if this is the way they react when we try to be more inclusive? Why do I want to work in this industry? Do they even deserve to have a diverse workforce if they don’t recognize that they treat people differently??

        1. The New Wanderer*

          Wow, that panel is like a case study on what not to do. Someone pointed out *to you* that your last name indicated your minority status?? Doing blind applications would somehow bias against white applicants?? No wonder you’re so disheartened. And this is the reaction over just attending an event? Wow.

          On the one hand, I think dropping off the committee after explaining that the committee clearly is not committed to implementing serious changes to improve diversity would send a message. But they might write you off as disgruntled that your ideas were rejected. And you’re right – if the company ultimately doesn’t take diversity seriously, that message should be as loud and clear as any red flag.

          On the other hand, continuing to push the research showing that blind applications help reduce bias and improve diversity (which itself helps companies in many measurable ways) and omg it’s such a simple change! might eventually get traction, but might just wear you out in the meantime.

          What is your sense of the other panel members? Their reaction to the ‘objections?’ Were the two that already quit the real problem and the others are more reasonable, or were they just the loudest voices or most willing to rage-quit over this? If you get the feeling they’re all “diversity sounds good but not like if it takes any effort on our part” you might not be able to do good here. But if you think they might be persuaded by a bit more education, it might still be worth another shot.

          1. Llama face!*

            “Doing blind applications would somehow bias against white applicants??”
            Oh but it would… bias against white applicants being hired because of their whiteness and not their actual ability/experience. (Which of course is the point and is why the panel members have a problem with it, whether or not they’d admit to it)

            Captain Marvel, it sounds like your committee is unwilling to make any changes that actually force them to confront their own biases and not pretend that it’s all the other racists “out there” who are the problem. I don’t know if some of the other members may be able to get past this first defensive reaction. Mebbe? Whether or not they can, I would encourage you to really consider what impact this membership is having on your own wellbeing and what feels like a healthy boundary to you. What do you need to see to know that they are serious about this initiative? It is easy to push yourself too far (voice of experience) when you see an important change that needs to happen, but if all you are doing is carrying the whole responsibility yourself then it’s like Sisyphus. That rock is just going to roll back downhill as soon as you stop pushing.

    4. pancakes*

      “One of them said we were discriminating against white students and certain universities by doing it this way…”

      My eyes rolled right out of my head. I don’t know that I have any advice but I can understand why you’re angry! I think it’s worth arguing for taking identifying info off the applications, but it’s beyond tedious that anyone should have to do so when the whole idea in the first place is to draw a more diverse group, and this is a well-documented way to help that happen.

    5. Hare under the moon with a silver spoon*

      This is shocking!

      Yeah this organisation has such serious issues that I can only see a leak to the press as a way of getting something to shift. Not saying this is your responsibility to do OP however, it’s not on your shoulders to instigate change especially as there simply isn’t the will in your company to do this.

  125. NotaPirate*

    Any HR or tax pros lurking? I’m starting a job remotely for 2 months before moving. It sounds like it will just be wage taxes etc in state A then redo the forms again for state B address after the move? Filling out with current address in state A now. I know main HR person knows I am moving in the next month or two to their location, just a little anxious that the one checking all the forms doesn’t know that and I’ll have messed something up.

    1. Lifelong student*

      CPA here- this is really complicated and dependent on the states involved. And with Covid- even more complicated- because there are rules which have been suspended. Does the company have operations in State A? If so it may be easier.
      Your pay stubs may give you info by which you can figure out which state’s taxes are being withheld- assuming the rates etc are different.
      Sorry – not any way to clarify without lots of specifics.

  126. Self Control Wanted*

    I have eczema that flares up in the lower third of my face sometimes. When it’s really bad, my skin gets a little scaly and it’s dry and tight and itchy constantly and/or leaking fluid and when I rinse my face, it’ll become really painful as it dries. Basically, it’s just very very irritating.
    My work-related problem is that this latest bout made me INCREDIBLY grouchy. I started off kind of okay this morning, but by the afternoon, anytime someone asked me a question or said something humorously, I wanted to start swearing at them. My frustration threshold is basically just at zero, anything that I would normally find slightly annoying makes me murderous right now and my restraint is kind of gone. I mostly managed to dodge showing it by not talking on voice calls, but I ended up flat out interrupting a coworker who was in the middle of asking me something and telling them I’d already answered the question in a really frustrated voice. The rational part of me is mortified, but the rest of me is just pissed at the world right now.
    Obviously, this isn’t acceptable behavior. I ended up just solving this today by leaving work a bit early and I’m going to make up the time tomorrow, but I can’t just take some impromptu time off every time I’m feeling like a massive Grinch and I can’t just be an awful person to my coworkers either. Does anyone have any tips for how to remain professional when you’re in an incredibly grouchy mood and/or on how to preserve your self-restraint in this kind of situation? I’m naturally kind of temperamental to begin with and I’ve never found stuff like “count to 10” to help. Whatever control I’ve managed over my temper just goes to nothing at times like this, but I don’t know how to fix it.

    1. ferrina*

      Can you redirect the grouchiness? i.e., quiet and withdrawn? Sometimes I’ll say that I’m feeling unwell (headache, maybe?) and I’ll be extra quiet (because that’s my alternative to snapping at people), but because I said it was for a headache people will be a lot gentler with me and give me space to be quiet and respond at my own pace.

  127. Unhappy*

    Just wanting to post this for anyone who wants to commiserate. In January 2020 I was hired for basically my dream job and was able to leave a toxic and unproductive work environment. And everything was great! I had an amazingly supportive boss (she actually told me that it was part of her goals for the year to help get me promoted to the next level). I was producing the best work I’ve ever done, and I was so happy! March hits and we have to work from home. Three days in I get the call that I’m being laid off, but that they’re hoping to bring me back as soon as business can pick up again. I found another job over the summer, but I’m miserable at it. I have a boss that communicates poorly and volunteers me to take on any project that no one else wants. My job is basically picking up everyone else’s slack, and I just hate it. I know I should be job hunting, but I get so depressed looking through listings. I know that even if my old company does bring me back it likely won’t be the same (they had to lay off pretty much everyone – our state’s stay at home orders killed the industry we worked in). Anyone else out there feeling the same way?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I’m so sorry. The pandemic has done this to so many.
      It can be hard to have a positive mindset while job hunting in these conditions. But try to keep doing so.
      In the meantime, can you try to kind of step out of yourself at work? People often say in a bad workplace to step back and pretend you’re an anthropologist observing without getting to frustrated or involved.

      I do think things will change as we move into summer/fall and people get vaccinated. And while things won’t rebound immediately, there is a light at the end of this Covid tunnel. In my job, I see a real pent-up demand for things like live events, trade shows, and travel that have been cancelled by the pandemic.

  128. ScifiScientist*

    What techniques do you use or information do you collect when starting a new managing role? In this case it would be in a closely associated agency from the one where I currently work where I know in general what they do but not the specific daily tasks and timelines. How do I find out what everyone’s job is and what they need? I’m currently a manager but it is at somewhere where I worked my way up from being staff so I know absolutely everything about the nuts and bolts of the job.

    1. The Equalizator*

      I have found the “First 90 Days” books by Watkins to be a useful resource, with lots of specific guidance that can be applied to many situations like yours.

  129. anon for this*

    Not sure if anyone’ll see this as it’s pretty late in the day but I posted on the open thread 2 weeks ago about being totally overwhelmed by work since a team member was let go early in the pandemic and the workflow increasing beyond even the previous capacity. I was told repeatedly that there wouldn’t be any new hire to get us back to 2 people and that they were going to pull in people from other departments to assist (which I thought was a bad idea for many reasons, capability just one of them).
    Everyone who replied basically said that at this point I had very little to lose by giving it another try and being as explicit as possible about my level of frustration and burnout. It took me about a week to build up to it and I actually took Monday off because I felt terrible (not covid) and then had the next two Mondays off for the holiday and an appointment.
    Everyone’s comments in the open thread made it easier to just TAKE the days off and to mostly not worry about things during that time. And having those three mondays off just brought back how bad I’d been feeling, like how you kind of stop actively noticing low grade chronic pain or a bad smell until it goes away?
    Anyway, long story long, I felt totally crushed starting back up this past Tuesday, so I finally said a whole bunch of stuff about how the volume of work was not letting up for months, how it was more than even pre-pandemic busy had been, and if there wasn’t some sort of *real* light at the end of the tunnel, I might not be around for much longer. It was really scary to try to say that clearly with no caveats or jokes to leaven it. And my supervisor pointed out that they were working long hours and stuff too, to help me, and I said I definitely saw that and I appreciated it and sympathized but I didn’t have any control over that, just over myself- and we were basically both frustrated with things overall – but they then said they’d talk to some people about it and get back to me.
    The next day I was told that they *had* talked to some of the higher ups and had already called a temp agency to bring someone in as soon as next week. And it would be temp to perm – and we’d try to get someone who could really handle the job (potentially trying a few people if we didn’t hit it right off). There have already been interviews! I was told that my having that talk gave the supervisor a stronger argument to bring to management and that it really helped to get approval for the hire!
    Of course, this week’s been a mess, with everyone wanting stuff right now and more stuff coming in, but at least it’s not necessarily going to just keep going this way until I keel over or quit. And since supervisor has been learning a bunch of my tasks as a stop gap, between that and the probable new person, maybe I’ll get to take >2 days off at some point in a month or two.

    1. Donkey Hotey*

      Excellent! Very glad you were able to have your boss hear you. I know that for myself, I often will sabotage any Serious Donkey talk with my boss by injecting humor or levity when sometimes one needs to say “No, really, no foolin’ This Is An Issue.”
      And while it may be late in the day for you, it’s still 2:45 out here on the Left Coast.

      1. anon for this*

        Thanks! I mostly meant late in that there were already 800+ comments so it was far from top of page :)
        I definitely joke so much in these discussions that it was a real effort not to end every statement with some sort of hyperbolic joke or to just stress laugh my way through it, because that’s what I’d *been* doing. I was repeatedly saying, very clearly how much work it was and how I was too stressed by everything but giving it camouflage with the humor, so I just stopped doing that and added one single comment amongst the conversation that I might not stay if things didn’t change, and so far it worked- I think? I hope? I’m very much not about counting my chickens before they’re hatched so I want to see an actual person doing actual tasks before I’ll be calling it resolved in my head, but I’m hopeful as a new hire had been totally off the table up until this week.

  130. Amber Rose*

    My employee review was nearly an hour long and even though it was pretty positive I feel like a boiled potato and I need a nap. D:

    Are they supposed to be like this. How do people survive.

    1. No Tribble At All*

      Even if it’s all positive, a long meeting to specifically discuss your performance over the year is draining! Hope you get a nice lil potato jacket and dressing.

    2. HorrorNugget*

      I talk to my supervisor throughout the year about goals and such so by the time we get to the ‘formal’ part of it, I just feel like WHYYYY are we doing this? Ours are submitted electronically so there is really no way around it. But hey, CONGRATS on your positive review! I hope you get a raise or promotion out of it.

  131. Anon for this,*

    Next week I have to start the process of laying someone off. I will be meeting with them to tell them there will be a lay off and they are ‘at risk’

    (They won’t be formally laid of at this first meeting, I am not in the US and here, there is a legally required process of which this is step one, but the reality is that due to the nature of their role, there’s no real alternative, which they will know. )

    I have only ever had to do this once before, about 10 years ago, and that time I wasn’t taking the lead.

    Other than avoiding making it about me and how bad it makes me feel, any tips on what to do / avoid?

    I plan to have the meeting late afternoon so they can leave immediately afterwards without it being obvious to anyone else why, if they want to.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Is this due to company downsizing or performance?

      If it’s due to budget cuts, I would be honest and tell them that this is not reflective of their work or performance, and that you will provide a good reference for them in the future. If it’s due to performance as well, I suppose you can be candid about why, or chalk it up to being a poor fit overall, or sometimes even deciding that a position will no longer be needed. In that case, you may or may not want to offer the reference.

      Having had this happen, it did help soften the blow to know it wasn’t anything I did wrong, but just a business decision to cut employees during the recession. I was also one of the “newer” people, and so was let go somewhat earlier than some other coworkers, so seniority also played a factor. My manager continued to provide a much-needed reference.

      1. Anon for this,*

        Both, but the official reason is financial (& doing it on that basis rather than performance is better financially as they will get severance pay as well as notice pay)

  132. Your Local Cdn*

    My ex manager has reached out to ask me to apply for a Senior Analyst position on the team. There are two analysts on the team currently – D and C, both of whom are also applying. D and I worked together for two years (and stay in touch), C and I for a few months.

    For context – Coworker D is a white male, I am a non-black WoC and coworker C is a black woman. Coworker D messaged me to say that he was upset that Coworker C had applied for the promotion as she had not been on the team as long (true, but she has more experience than him in total) and that he felt management prioritized “diversity checkboxes” in hiring over competency.

    He doesn’t know that I’ve been asked to apply and I am concerned about future hostility should I (or coworker C!) earn the promotion. Would I be overstepping to raise it with the manager?

    I also know for a fact he has been spoken to in the past over allegations of bullying but it was never formally recorded, nor was he disciplined.

    1. HorrorNugget*

      I get where you’re coming from but I don’t see the point of raising concerns with Coworker D’s potential future hostility with the manager. I would, as part of the interview or on-boarding to that role, ask for clarification on any internal policy for reporting bullying. You probably already know your company policy, and maybe signed something for your HR, but now you also have it pinpointed to a specific instance with that manager (assuming they’re the one doing the interview or on-boarding) so that you’re both starting off with the same understanding.

    2. Nonnie 123*

      “He felt management prioritized ‘diversity checkboxes’ in hiring over competency.”

      Oh, that doesn’t sound good. That doesn’t sound good at all. That sounds like he definitely has some racist/sexist/etc bias – especially since that was in the context of him conveniently forgetting the competence and years of experience that coworker C has… implying the only way she’d be hired over him is as a token. Yikes.

      But I also agree with HorrorNugget. Unless you’re really good friends with the manager, I think it might come across as petty to mention it when you’re up for the same promotion D is up for – maybe after you have the offer, you could bring that up as a concern though. I would say, going forward, if you get the job, just be ready to document and escalate as necessary any bullying or discriminatory behaviors by D.

    3. Allura Vysoren*

      I don’t think it’s over-stepping, especially depending on your upper management’s stance on racism. This is especially true if the new role would have any authority over Coworker D.

  133. HumbleJanitor*

    I wrote last week about facing retaliation in the form of policy change of having to sign up at a whole different location nearby and clock in and out there too. I contacted HR after temporary manangent refused to solve this issue through good faith. Using HR is a last resort but I cited strong evidences. I know HR is not an employees best friend but there is no other way. Do you guys have HR success stories? Or is the outcome mostly bad

  134. HorrorNugget*

    I have an admin support person who a year and a half into them working with us (they supports 2 of us), still can’t seem to grasp the role and, more importantly, can’t seem to effectively problem solve/use the resources provided to finish a task w/o additional guidance. I find I am spending more time advising corrections or offering additional instruction than it would take for me to just do it myself. My own supervisor is aware of the situation and he also finds himself in the same situation with this admin and now avoids assigning them more than basic tasks. I don’t know how else to guide them because I have tried empowering them to “take charge” of their work, I have tried offering them additional outside training (we’d pay for whatever course), I have tried offering alternative work that might better suit their skill set (my thinking was that as long as they could take X amount off my plate, I wouldn’t mind doing some of my own admin tasks). All fruitless efforts. My supervisor has asked me to come up with training suggestions for them and I’m struggling because I don’t believe this person actually has the aptitude needed to be an admin and I don’t know what else to do to help them improve in their role. Has anyone been in this situation and was able to make it a success? Any suggestions of good trainings or resources would be appreciated. I’m really struggling with this.

    1. WellRed*

      You need to tell your supervisor what you’ve told us here. You don’t believe they have the aptitude and you feel you’ve exhausted all avenues to help. I mean, 18 months for an admin role? Cmon!

      1. HorrorNugget*

        My supervisor is aware of the situation and all of the above is not news to him. My super is the other person the admin supports. Because of how my program is funded, we can’t just let her go and get someone else. I really need to try to make it work, at least for the time being, which is why I would like ideas and suggestions for some resources/trainings that I might not be familiar with.

        1. PollyQ*

          Well, that sucks. Given how much you’ve already tried, I doubt any amount of training will help in this case. Maybe just give her the simplest, most routine tasks you can, and give very specific, very detailed instructions for anything else.

    2. PollyQ*

      Bottom line is that this person is not capable of doing this job. 18 months of coaching, training, reassigning etc. is vastly more than should have been needed. Find out what your company’s process is for firing someone and follow it. And yes, I know this sounds cruel. But I guarantee there’s someone who’s currently unemployed who’d be able to do this job for you.

      1. HorrorNugget*

        I agree with you! I know there is someone out there that would be a good fit for us! It makes me even more frustrated to know this. I posted a reply before I saw your reply.

      2. MissDisplaced*

        Honestly, if they do not have the skills or aptitude to handle this job after 18 months, you need to begin managing them out. If the person is otherwise decent and hardworking, you might want to give them some extended time rather than an abrupt end, like say 30 days. Chalk it up to poor fit.

        My manager at work just had to do this with one of her salespersons. The salesperson was qualified for the job but after well over a year had not closed any deals. And, well, that just doesn’t fly in sales and so were let go.

    3. Malika*

      Admin support is not for everyone. The high level of attention to detail and holding many spinning plates in the air is challenging for a lot of people. Have you tried proposing a gradual transition to another area in your organization? What do you think their skill set really is? If it is communication, is there a role in marketing or customer service that would suit them? Any other area that would be a great lateral move for them?

      I was a competent admin support, who unfortunately never could make the leap to excellent. My adhd made me too liable to off days and basic mistakes that looked really unprofessional as an admin support. As a result i was fired twice from positions that if you had looked at my cv i should have aced. I transitioned to customer service. I make less but i have a job i excel in and can leave it behind. I can also learn programming in the evening and am 1000% happier than i ever was in my old job.

      If you manage to transition this employee, or in worst case fire them, this might be the win-win everyone sorely needs.

  135. Rainy*

    This is mostly just me venting, but I had a really frustrating experience recently about time off. We are chronically understaffed and I have been exhausted since April. I am trying to take more time off so I can relax and mentally get away (if not physically) and try to stave off burnout, because I really love my job actually. I just feel like a potato most of the time lately. In January, I asked if I could take a week off as soon as my schedule cleared. My boss consulted up and the word came back “Heck yes, everyone please take time off.” So I checked my schedule and asked for the first clear week in my schedule, which wasn’t for three months. My boss said yes, I put it in my calendar, and then two weeks later, my boss told me that my grandboss said I couldn’t have that week because it coincides with International Pooper Scooper Week. My boss told me this the day before our regular one on one, and I had enough self-possession to defer the discussion to the next day when I could be more graceful about it.

    When we met the next day, I apologized for being grumpy and said I was happy to cancel my time off, that I understood, and while I was disappointed because I’m very, very tired, I would reschedule my time off for my next free week, which wasn’t until May. My boss said “that seems really far away, though!” (I KNOW IT DOES) After running through the fact that no, really, it’s Int’l Pooper Scooper Week or not til May, and waiting a week while everyone got to weigh in on how close I am to running naked onto the highway like a demented raccoon (SO. VERY. CLOSE.) my original week off request was re-approved. And all it took was three weeks and every last scrap of my ability to cope. Happy ending, I guess.

    1. linger*

      Huh. Was their original objection that Pooper Scooper Week would enable you to Just Deal With more crap? Glad you eventually got them to backtrack.

      1. Rainy*

        Essentially, yes. The argument was that because the pooper scoopers are notoriously disorganized and demanding, I should expect a last-minute request for more stuff that week.

  136. nep*

    Job searching.
    Sending good vibes and best wishes to all those seeking work.
    I hear a lot about people having third- and fourth-round interviews. Part of this is probably down to how low my self-confidence is right now, and just how unaccustomed I am to speaking much in a professional setting (underemployed for a good while, and now furloughed since March)…but I keep thinking, I don’t have enough to say about anything to fill three or four interviews. Anyone care to share how much of the interview content overlaps? Is each unique, with different types of questions and perhaps exercises put to a candidate? I’m sure it varies, but I’d love to hear any insights on that.
    As I write this I see that I should be looking into something like Toastmasters to work out some of those muscles that have atrophied over time of mostly side hustles.

    1. Your Local Cdn*

      I’ve found it varies – my most recent search, the interviews were pretty repetitive but essentially were used as a gut check because the role interacts with a lot of different facets of the org. Other places, the first interview was very high level, the second dug into the usual behavioural questions, and the third was a culture fit so there was very little repetition. I’ve found that even with repetitive ones, sometimes playing off your audience helps add different facets or details to your original answer.

    2. nep*

      (I should say that for all the posts I’ve held, the interview/hiring processes were not typical–hence my question about the layers of interviews.)

  137. Small houseplant*

    I just found out the manager at one of my past jobs is retiring. Do I just email her and say congrats, how much I enjoyed working for her, and will she still be a reference for me and can I have her info? Is that a thing? Does it matter that my previous two managers are retired? (Nothing sketchy at the trail of jobs, pt positions that are temporary or different responsibilities or locations). (Also those two managers are important in my field in my state). (Also I did like her, she’s awesome, I typically see her once a year to catch up).

    1. CalgonTakeMeAway*

      That is definitely a thing! First they’ll probably love hearing from you and it’s easier to make contact now while you know their contact info.
      I also have the issue of all my immediate managers retiring from past jobs. What I’ve done is just make sure I have at least one reference from each job, retired or not, and make sure there’s some supervisors and coworkers on your list for different perspectives. So far I’ve never had someone turn me down when I ask if they will be a reference. And if it’s been a few years since I talked with them, I always let they know if I’m looking for a new job and they might get a call (I try to link them to the job descriptions too.).

  138. CMPorter*

    My sister is currently employed as a cashier at a grocery store, and while she and all of her co-workers wear masks, they aren’t allowed to force customers to wear them. They can request it, but can’t eject customers or refuse service for not wearing one.
    My question is, is that something that either OSHA or a state board would consider a workplace safety violation? It seems relevant to note that she is in California, where there is still currently a mask mandate. So basically her employer is not only endangering her health (she’s asthmatic AND 6 months pregnant), but saying she’s required to serve people who are actively breaking the law. I’d really like to know if she has some legal standing here.

    1. CalgonTakeMeAway*

      I just read that unemployment benefits were extended for those that work in an unsafe environment due to covid. I would suspect that she has a case if there’s an indoor mask mandate in CA. The state I work has an anonymous employee comment email/phone for covid violations in the workplace, perhaps check if CA has something like that too? I’ve read that OSHA doesn’t have a lot of power for covid issues, though that was before the change in administrations so maybe it’s different now.

  139. TardyTardis*

    My next book is finally in shape to upload to KDP (Amazon)–so of course in the middle of the process they shut down for two hours for maintenance. But I shall log back in this evening and continue the process. It’s a rather long awaited sequel to an earlier work, and I promised everyone never to take that long again. (I still beat that nice Mr. Martin, though, so hey).

    And on Monday I start the typing revision on the *next* book.

  140. Winter Is Here*

    I just got inspired by a AAM post, and was wondering, what people or posters have been featured in a AAM post you would like to work with and why??

    Good or bad.

  141. CalgonTakeMeAway*

    Well, my manager said to me this week that they don’t understand why I say I’m overwhelmed…after months upon months of my department being shortstaffed during a pandemic. So things are going real great.
    We will be reopening relatively soon and we will have a third of our positions empty (we can currently offer goods through curbside service). My department will be the only one that interacts with people and the “reopening plan” is not really fleshed out for contingencies. Yet my questions get brushed aside and I’m told x, y, z isn’t a big deal to worry about so they won’t come up with plans of how to deal with x,y,z when those occur. It is all too much. I’ve now cried multiple days at work this week because my safety is on the line and my manager can’t properly manage. The pandemic has exasperated all the fault lines that had previously existed at my job. Morale is pretty much non existent. How do I keep my head above water??

    1. Anono-me*

      I think that if you were my friend irl; that I would tell you to go home, drink a big glass of water and have one more good angry cry. Then to wash your face, drink another big glass of water and start an aggressive job search. You (and everyone) deserve a job where your safety is treated as important.

      Have you considered making your own covid safety action plan if you are still in this job when it reopens to the public? For example: Deciding to literally step back and call your manager if a customer will not maintain their distance or wear a mask correctly. (I find I am better at deciding on and enforcing good boundaries if I do so ahead of time. )

      1. CalgonTakeMeAway*

        This week has been filled by all types of crying (and screaming in my car on my commute home). It’s been a bit cathartic. Just not as much as I need. I have been searching and had a couple interviews but no bites yet.
        I’ve received the same suggestion from others last night, to prepare my own plan of action for various scenarios so that I’m ready in the moment. I’m gonna do that, I’m just afraid I’ll freeze and shut down, even with a prepared few lines.

  142. The Gluttonous Oyster*

    If applying to a job through a system that only asks you to attach a resume, is there any benefit (or detriment) to writing a cover letter and uploading it in the same document? On the one hand, if they don’t even give you the option to attach a cover letter, they might not want to see them at all. But maybe if they aren’t actively opposed, it could help. Or does this just look like not following instructions? What do y’all think?

    1. The Equalizator*

      If I were the hiring manager, and I asked for resumes, then got other documents attached, I would only read the resumes.

      1. meteorological spring*

        That’s very fair! On the other hand, I applied to a big corporation with a weird auto tracking system and it didn’t SAY no cover letters, it just didn’t have a spot for them, so I added my cover letter to the resume document. And reader, they hired me! YMMV

        1. The Gluttonous Oyster*

          Yeah, there’s no explicit instructions on this one, just a form with one file attachment field for a resume, so it could probably go either way. Luckily I still haven’t gotten rid of Facebook and I’m in a professional group on there for the field this org is in, so I just threw my question to them as well. :) Hopefully there’s someone in the group who knows this employer!

  143. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

    I’m in a rather strange career situation, and could use some perspective.

    My SO is an early-career academic, and has just been offered a TT position in the US – yay! We’ve been working towards this for years and have moved countries multiple times, this is amazing! BUT – the US immigration system is not-so-amazing. We’re not US citizens, so the university will sponsor SO for an H1B visa; that mean’s I’ll get an H4 visa. Which means I will not be allowed to even apply for a work permit until after we’ve applied, and been approved, for a green card. Which means I’m looking at minimum of 1.5-2 years unemployment. As much as that’ll suck for me, we still have to take the offer, academic jobs are much too hard to come by to risk turning it down, especially right now.

    So I’m considering my options. Currently, I work as a contractor for a mid-size international company; they don’t have any offices in my current country (which is why I’m a contractor, not an employee) but they do have offices in the US. My direct manager has told me multiple times that if I ever move to a country where they have offices, they’d love to bring me on as a ‘real’ employee. Obviously, I wouldn’t be able to work for them, or anyone else, during that 1.5-2 year period; but what should I do with that time? Is it better to go back to school (I could probably do this cheaply, at the uni my SO works at), and get some kind of certification? Should I look into volunteer/internships to get something approximating work experience? (Is it even legal to do an unpaid internship without a work permit?) The work I do now isn’t something I set out to do, I just sort of fell into it, but it’s interesting work and I’m good at it; if I go the back to school route, would it be wiser to get a certification/license relevant to that field (which is highly specialized) on the assumption that they will, indeed, want to hire me when I get a work permit, or would it be better to change fields completely and get a certification in something else?

    And how weird does it look on a resume to just… stop working for that long? I mean, any reasonable person will understand ‘waiting for work permit’, but I’m also moving to a relatively conservative area and may not want to advertise my immigrant status.

    Also – just a PSA about how much this immigration system sucks. From what I’ve read, about 90% of spouses in my situation (unable to work because their SO has an H1B but aren’t yet permanent residents) are women (as am I). It just really feels like this is straight out of the 1950’s assumption that ‘man works, woman stays home with kids.’ Even aside from this being irritating for me personally, this policy is infuriating; and, for the record, other countries don’t do this! Every other country we’ve moved to, the residence permit & work permit are combined, it’s been automatic & assumed that I should have legal permission to work.

      1. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

        H1Bs have very specific requirements, I am not qualified for an H1B. They’re basically reserved for doctors, engineers, and other highly specialized fields requiring very specialized training.

        (When I said my work is specialized, I meant in terms of, very few companies do it – not that it requires highly specialized training. My BA is in an unrelated field and is not career-specific.)

        1. Rainy*

          If your spouse accepts the job, once you have moved and they’ve started, go to the institution’s international students and faculty office and talk to them about how to get a permit to work. The magic phrase is usually “I’d like to be able to find a job for my personal cultural enrichment” or something similar. You don’t want to ever say “I want to make money”, you want to frame it as “I want to learn about American culture through work”.

          1. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

            We’re able to talk to the school now, because he’s accepted the offer; their legal team has advised us that H4 visa holders cannot apply for a work permit until their application for permanent residency has been accepted. Which is what we thought, from reading the USCIS website. The university can’t exactly countermand the US government. They’ll try to help us fast-track the application for PR status, but that’s all that they can do. And any other visa type I’d potentially qualify for that would be work permit-eligible, would NOT be a path to PR status, and I’d run the risk of being denied the visa.

            So for at least 1.5 years, it’ll be school, volunteer/internship, or nothing. Thus my frustration with the US immigration system.

            1. Rainy*

              Ah, interesting. The rules must have changed; when I was hiring international postdocs several years back, their spouses could work if it was for cultural enrichment purposes. Sorry about that.

              I agree, the rules are really ridiculous and extremely labyrinthine with very high stakes, and I wish it weren’t the case.

              If you have a personal project you want to devote time to, or if you are open to volunteering you can probably put together something that resembles a regular work schedule that will keep you grounded and occupied in ways that don’t endanger your future green card. It’s not the same, but might help a little.

              1. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

                My understanding is that a postdoc would get a J1 visa, so their spouse would get a J2, and J2 visa holders can apply for a work permit – but J visas are not a path to PR status/citizenship. (And yes, the J2 visa holder would have to promise that just WANT to work, they don’t NEED to work to support their family, because a J2 is supposed to be ‘dependent’ on the J1.)

                I’m thinking I’ll either volunteer for the work experience or go to some kind of back-to-school thing, I’m just not sure which would be better long-term.

    2. Derivative Poster*

      I’d probably go back to school, both so I had something to put on my resume and to keep myself busy. If your current field has good future prospects and you can work remotely, it may make sense to stick with it. Your partner may end up switching to a different institution and you would be better off if your job isn’t location-dependent.

    3. That’s not my name*

      Can you approach the company you work for to see if they’ll sponsor your work visa until you are able to apply for PR?

      1. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

        It unfortunately doesn’t work that way; H4 visas do not qualify for a work permit, regardless of sponsorship, until they have applied for PR status & their application has been accepted. Any other visa type I could qualify for (J or F visas) would not allow me to apply for PR status, and I would run the risk of being denied the visa anyway. There is just no legal way for me to get a work permit.

        I agree that it’s a silly rule, but it is how US immigration law works, currently.

  144. The Dude Abides*

    I interviewed this week for a stretch position (two steps up from where I’m at now). I know the correct thing to do is to assume you didn’t get it and move on, but that’s a struggle.

    I applied to this job within my agency in September. It took four months and an appeal to get the highest grade for my application (I work in state gov’t), and once the appeal went through, I followed up with HR and she confirmed that they had not started interviews.

    Come Monday, I get an email asking for interview times, and I had my first virtual interview Wednesday. I answered the questions to the best of my ability, but I fear that someone else will get it over me.

    I desperately want this job. It would be around a 20% pay bump, and my other applications are stuck in the mud (since applying for this one, I’ve applied to 4-5 other positions with the exact same title, and have heard nothing).

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I know it’s exciting. But you have to keep applying for other things and act as though you didn’t get this one.
      In all honesty, right now it’s quite the achievement to get to the interview stage when there are many good candidates due to high unemployment. So you shouldn’t feel bad about that! You did something right here that connected.
      Wishing you best of luck though!

      1. The Dude Abides*

        All but one of my applications have been for jobs at the same title but in other agencies and 1-3 months later.

        The timing is what is frustrating, as a co-worker applied for a supervisor job in a different unit within our department, and has already taken a hard pass on the promotion (for internal promotions, we are allowed a “feeling-out period” to determine whether we actually want the role or not).

  145. Starchy*

    I realized recently that although I have had three distinctly different careers the part I have loved and very good at is processes management and streamlining operations. I have always been the troubleshooter/department rehabilitative at every job I have had. I have also been a manager for 25 years and have enjoyed mentoring people. I have been contemplating my future and would like to move towards the direction of a COO position. I just don’t know how to start finding the kind of position that would move me in the right direction and would encompass what I love. I just don’t know where to look or who to talk to for these higher level kinds of positions. Any advice would be appreciated.

  146. Tech Writer*

    I wanted to thank everyone who helped me out with clearing up what a Letter of Intent is, and some good news. I was able to get to the second round of interviews with Company B, but I didn’t have the experience they wanted and Company C never got back to me after the initial phone screen.
    I was able to negotiate a higher raise with Company A, and I’ll start Monday!

  147. Late Bloomer*

    How do people balance the possibility of multiple job offers? I got and accepted a private-sector job and then got a call about a government job that I had assumed I didn’t get. Working for the state is a goal of mine, so I still interviewed for the position and will hear if I’ve been moved on to the next step next week. Meanwhile, the private sector job is still working through my background check. I don’t even know if I’ll get the state job so it might not be an issue but I’m just wondering how people deal with this since jobs are almost never on the same schedule as far as hiring and this is the second time I’ve personally run into this.

  149. The Claw Decides*

    I work for a well-known company. There’s a lot of chaos inside my large org but the management won’t hear of it. I’ve produced results but those are trumped by vague criticism about my culture fit. This seems to result from my pointing out that the chaos is costing us. Do I just keep my head down, accept the lack of standards and continue the 60-hour work week so I can be promoted and move on in a year or so?

    Iif you propose changes to the status quo, you’re criticized without much specificity. If you ask questions to clarify the criticism, you get told, “You have trouble taking criticism” and “Standards are high at FAMOUS COMPANY ACME.” But they’re not. Without going into detail, it’s painfully obvious that we lack standards. Sometimes I feel as though I’m in a cult. Any advice?

    1. Malika*

      Culture fit at some places is critical. If they don’t perceive you as a natural part of the team, anything you say will be perceived as criticism from an outsider. I worked at one place like this, and every convo felt like an insurmountable assault course. I couldn’t get anything done and my effectiveness plummeted. The reason was that i couldn’t get my ideas accross, and as a result lost all motivation to anything beyond turning up and doing the basics.

      Next place is like a warm bubble bath in comparison. My ideas are heard and, if there is a broad consensus, applied. I don’t have to jump through five hoops only to be met with five new hoops for my efforts. Sh-t. Gets. Done. It is fantastic, and the last workplace has made me appreciate this one so much more.

      Is there any way of shortening your tenure at this company? I hope you are able to survive this environment for as long as is needed, and that you can then move on to greener pastures. As long as you don’t lose clarity on what you believe in, you will get through this.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Sometimes yes, you just may not be a fit. This is especially true at large matrixed organizations.
      The problem with “pointing out that the chaos is costing us” often translates to management as “Claw is a complainer.” Believe me, I’m living it now, and like you I’m looking (selectively of course).

      Thing is, they KNOW there is a deep-seated problem… but don’t like hearing there is a problem. And if you don’t have the professional capital or authority and agency to fix it, you’ll not be a good fit. Sometimes management will turnover (forcing a change) so you can also hope for that–this happens frequently at my company. Otherwise, I’d keep up the “get along to go along” for a little longer and begin looking for something else where you’re happier. I’d also cut down the 60 hours to more like 55 hours and so be it.

  150. Anon for This*

    I’m beginning a job hunt after several years in one place for… multiple reasons. My manager frequently tells us he doesn’t want to hear excuses why we couldn’t get something done (the excuse is that we are understaffed and there’s a finite amount of time in our days to get things done), we’re constantly having to take more time to double and triple check the input other teams give us because it’s frequently not in a format we can use, and they blame us for delays, other teams are under the impression that our job is easy and we’re intentionally creating delays which feels demoralizing, and I also want to move to somewhere I can do more challenging work than the piles of easy, tedious stuff my coworkers have abandoned me with.

    What should I actually say is my reason for seeking a new job? Potential for upward mobility? Seeking a job with a better work life balance?

    1. Anon for This*

      Not wanting to have to keep picking up the pieces when my manager’s tendency to not speak clearly when he’s excited results in several people verbally agreeing to something that is NOT what he was asking them to agree to, which creates a mess that needs to be fixed?

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I’m thinking maybe that you’re looking for a job that has a better (or more defined) workflow or process or schedule.

      Using this reason may depend on the type of work you do though, and the level you’re at. For example, if you’re seeking a manager role, the employer might be looking to YOU to create that new workflow/process (and if you are then you can spin that under “more responsibility”). But overall, not having a clearly defined workflow for something critical like AP or monthly reconciliation is a very valid reason for wanting to switch jobs.

  151. Paul Anon Please*

    Last year just before the pandemic hit we and another couple went to an all inclusive adults only resort in the Caribbean. I was walking on the beach with my wife and, of all things, ran into a woman from another department who is one level above me. She was topless and my wife was not. We spoke briefly, I introduced my wife. She has avoided me since and we usually cross paths a few times per week. I initially approached her on the beach and wife thinks I shouldn’t have. I have not told anyone about this encounter.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Eh! Well, what were the chances of that?
      This is one of those situations where it’s gonna be AWKward either way, whether you said hello on the beach or just pretended you didn’t know each other (even though I agree with your wife that maybe the topless beach wasn’t the best time or place to say hello–unless you literally like bumped into each other or were sitting close enough where you had to say something or it would be even weirder). Personally I think you did the right think by acknowledging you did know each other from work, and then just forgetting it ever happened.

      And I agree that you should both act like this NEVER HAPPENED and never ever mention it at work. It’s embarrassing and I’d avoid you too if you’d seen my boobs on the beach in Bermuda.

  152. Pepper Potts*

    Has anyone had any experience taking bereavement leave during COVID times? My grandfather has recently entered hospice care and it’s not looking like he will last the week. Considering the state of the world, I doubt we’ll have any sort of service. My company provides us with 3-5 days of bereavement leave, but usually, that’s to attend the service. How does this work when there is no service? I’m definitely considering helping my mom clean out his apartment, as she is an only child and my grandmother had already passed a few years ago. I’m just not sure what to do or what to say to my boss. My company and management are all truly fantastic, that’s not something I’m at all worried about.

    1. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

      Any reasonable person will understand bereavement leave, even in the absence of a funeral service. Taking a few days to mourn with family and help deal with the requisite logistics (burial/cremation, paperwork, cleaning out the house, etc.) should be completely fine.

      I haven’t lost anyone during COVID, luckily, but colleagues have, and nobody batted an eye at them taking bereavement leave.

    2. Karo*

      TL;DR: I think when your grandfather dies, you just need to tell your boss that he has passed and that you’re taking bereavement leave. There’s no universe where they should question you on your plans, but if they do saying that you’re helping your mom deal with his effects is perfectly reasonable.

      I am so sorry for what you’re going through. I think the key thing you should remember is that bereavement leave isn’t really designed to allow you to go to a service. It’s there to give you the time to deal with the stuff you need to deal with after a loved one dies. While that normally includes a service, it also includes dealing with the cemetery where they’ll be interred or going to their apartment and cleaning their stuff out. Look at it this way: You still get bereavement time if you work Monday-Friday and the service is on the weekend, because they understand that it’s more than just showing up someplace for an hour and then going home.

      My FIL passed away due to COVID in September. We used the bereavement leave to deal with the cemetery plot, be shellshocked and to talk to my husband’s siblings. We don’t have a timeline on when we have to deal with his stuff so that’s been on the backburner, but if we had had to get his stuff moved out that would’ve been a top priority for bereavement time.

      1. Pepper Potts*

        You’ve made some good points, especially about still getting the leave if the service was on a weekend.

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