open thread – March 26-27, 2021

by Alison Green on March 26, 2021

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Liv*

    Hi all. I’m quite depressed and overwhelmed at the moment so any help & comments are appreciated.

    I started my current job 2 years ago. It’s a very small company, we’re 9 of us and no HR.

    In my very first day, my coworker who I shared an office with gossipped about absolutely everyone, going as far as calling people’s kids ugly. She also said she didn’t like ‘girls’. I’m in my mid-20s and she’s 22 years older than me by the way.

    In my first month she was being hot and cold with me. I shrugged off her mood swings. She wouldn’t put phones coming for me through but I never made a big deal out of it. 

    A month or so into the job, she went ballistic on me. I will spare you the details but basically she said that I had a problem with her and that I bullied her… by talking to other coworkers but not to trying to talk to her when she was giving me silent treatments. She swore a few times and when I told her that it was not acceptable, she goes ‘well I’m (insert nationality), it’s the way we talk’. I’m the only person that is not same nationality as my colleagues. So this comment made me feel excluded.

    At that point I found out that she was with the company for 8 years and there have been 7 people in my position during this period working directly with her and sharing an office. To me it was incredibly fishy, but when I asked about this to others they were like ‘yeah, they all left for various reasons though’. 

    Around January 2020, where she was completely ignoring me leading up to this, I made a horrible mistake and opened up to another colleague about it asking for advice as I thought he was neutral and would share his objective opinion. 

    A couple of weeks later, I was pulled into my boss’ office. She was crying. Apparently the colleague I confided in told her that I’d talked to him. As I didn’t badmouth her, my boss wasn’t angry with me. He said there’d been a lot of misunderstandings between us, we needed to grab a cup of coffee together and talk this through. She absolutely refused it. And since January 2020 she hasn’t spoken to me. I heard her calling me names, laughing at me, mocking me etc. back in the office. I overhead her referring me as Chucky due to my acne scars. I ignored all these.

    Shortly after in March 2020 we started working from home (blessing in disguise for me…) but she still freezes me out in virtual meetings. She is friendly with everyone else. Overly friendly with the colleague who snitched me, calling him lover etc. Now he treats me with absolute disrespect too. He turns my piddliest suggestions at work into hostage negotiations and picks holes in my projects.

    I was promoted during all this chaos so I don’t want to walk out of this job I’m otherwise very happy with. I tried finding other jobs but due to pandemic it wasn’t very successful. Please let me know the best strategy in tackling this toxic and demoralising environment without losing my job or my sanity! Thanks a lot.

    1. Elementary Fan*

      Probably not what you want to hear, but look for a new job! That sounds like a dysfunctional environment.

      1. Joan Rivers*

        Yes. When people unite as a group over some common bond, it can be hard to get around.
        If you don’t react and try to ignore being baited, sometimes someone will escalate, as happened to me. She was literally screaming by the front desk and having a meltdown. No idea why, but it was directed at me.
        So that made the point that they needed to get rid of her.

    2. ES*

      Honestly, I don’t think this is something you CAN tackle. I would try to take the silent treatment as a blessing and just stay focused on doing your work. If any of your colleagues cause actual work issues for you then you should run that up the chain to your boss, but otherwise let it be. If you do have to talk to your boss I would keep it strictly focused on work as he obviously isn’t interested in getting involved in the social dynamic. If that seems untenable then I put your would focus back on that job search!

      1. OhNoYouDidn't*

        I agree with everything ES said. 7 office mates in 8 years. Everyone else seems to like you. They know what’s going on.

        1. Momma Bear*

          I used to work for someone who blew through assistants like tissues. There were reasons for that. I bet you $100 that they gave professional excuses for leaving but it was mostly her. Something I would request is a different office when you return – make someone else share with her. Even if I had to have a cubicle vs an office, I would take it to get away. While you look for a new job, document everything. Practice being assertive re: these meetings with Mr. Snitch. It’s been a year and if she’s refused to clear the air with you, she never will. I’d bring up to the boss anything where her treatment prevents you from doing your job. “The Teapot Painting project is in danger of running behind schedule. I sent this request for the Pantone color on March 3, but as of today, Coworker has not provided it and refuses to speak to me. How should I proceed?” Make it his problem to manage her like he should.

        2. TardyTardis*

          I had a boss who blew through six different accountants working directly for her in ten years (though she finally did find someone who could read her mind there at the end).

    3. Sandwiches*

      Ohhh no. I’ve been in this situation before. I don’t have a lot of constructive advice because I never found a healthy way to deal with the situation. Just take care of yourself first. If it means ignoring this bully, going above her head when you have ideas, asking for a new desk placement when you return to the office, even keeping a file of proof that she’s treating you poorly, so be it. Your mental health is more important than your coworker.

    4. Zephy*

      I swear I’ve seen this exact letter published on the site before.

      If this IS a real post, get out get out get out, this situation sucks and isn’t going to change.

      1. Liv*

        I did post it here before and started looking for a new job like I mentioned in light of comments to no avail. As I’m still stuck in this, wanted to hear more opinions. I added few more details this time for clarity. I do apologise if posting again wasn’t allowed.

        1. Zephy*

          Oh, okay, thanks for clarifying. I’m sorry you’re still dealing with Jane and her bullshit, I hope you can get out soon.

        2. Rainy*

          I had a coworker like this that I had to share space with, in a small family owned business with no HR and an entirely absent manager. Before me no one had lasted in my job more than 9-10 months, and the person who replaced me when I left quit via sticky note on the desk inside of six weeks (my ex-boss called me up to berate me for hiring someone who would do that!).

          I stayed 3 1/2 years, and by the end, I had 12 separate facial tics and a stutter from the stress of working with this woman. It took me over a year to recover. You’ve got to get out.

    5. Dust Bunny*

      You can’t fix this. You can’t tackle a situation when everyone else is unreasonable. Start looking for a new job.

      1. StudentA*

        I learned this the hard way. Sometimes you just have to cut the cord. I hate to say this, because that is probably exactly what Jane wants. For you to leave :( But as others have said, your mental wellbeing is more important. You will find something. It will happen. In the meantime, take satisfaction in the fact that Jane is so miserable in her life, she has to take it out in the world around her. How miserable must she be?

    6. I am not the Lorax*

      I’ve worked with folks who didn’t like me. I’ve also worked with folks who didn’t like me when I was in my 20s. I’ve learned some lessons, the most important of which is to defuse the drama. At some point it no longer matters who is causing the drama. (And it sounds as though you may have discussed your colleague with another member of staff, which just escalated the issue) The best thing you can do is treat your colleague professionally and maintain the space around you as an emotion free zone. Do not engage in the fluffy pleasantries or slights that occur. Do the work. Do the work you need to do with her. Go home at the end of the day.

      1. irene adler*

        This is good advice. Be professional at all times with this co-worker. That includes talking about her to other co-workers. If her moods are adversely affecting the work, bring it straight to your boss.

        Do not take her moods/comments personally. Work to steel yourself against her moods. Otherwise, she will use your emotions to manipulate. Keeping your emotional “cool” takes away some of her perceived ‘power’ over you.

      3. aiya*

        yes, do your job as well as you can. only engage with her professionally when it’s necessary, but please do address the part where she’s locking you out of meetings (essentially preventing you from doing your job) – this part needs to be fixed. Talk to your boss or the owner if necessary. Other than that, don’t give her another inch of your mental space.

        There’s nothing much you can do, when the entire environment clearly is enabling her behavior.

      4. Malarkey01*

        I know this sucks because in general I like to be liked and anywhere Im spending 45 hours a week should be pleasant, BUT that’s not what you have and you need to reframe it so you’re okay with having people not like you. Like others said, find a way to not care (I think back to high school where there were people I liked and didn’t like but was still able to sit in class together even if we didn’t talk otherwise.) I’d ignore her right back, only interact for work, and if you hit roadblocks where work is considered send an email stating I need x for y project and if she doesn’t respond forward to boss for assistance. This is only to preserve your sanity while you look for a new job (even if it takes a year or so).

        Honestly though she will always be miserable to you and sounds like the office is with her so it’s a who is willing to outlast who. Sorry you have to deal with petty adults as if we don’t have enough to do in 2021.

    7. Liv*

      Thanks for all comments so far and for any more to come in advance. Your comments are invaluable and make me feel less lonely. Although the situation doesn’t seem salvageable…

      1. Juniper*

        I had a job once with an incredibly toxic manager that pushed me to the edge of a breakdown. The situation wasn’t salvageable and fortunately I was able to leave, but towards the end something that helped me immensely was complete detachment. I just… stopped caring. He was such a ridiculously awful human being that something in me flipped and I could look at the situation from a remove and almost laugh at the absurdity of it. These people are ridiculous. They are treating you terribly, and people who are so wildly out of line are not worth your time or consideration. Treat them with professional courtesy, as another person said, but that’s it. You will look so, so much better in comparison to these clowns. And then get the heck out of this place as soon as you can.

      2. Momma Bear*

        Remember that someone like this is the problem. It is not about you. It is your place. She is threatened by you somehow.

    8. New Mom*

      I’m sorry you are going through this. I do think you should look for another job. This job is not just bad because of this woman, it’s also bad that the higher-ups are aware of how you are being treated and they are okay with it and will allow it to happen. Do you really want to work somewhere where some people are blatantly nasty to you and everyone else is okay with it happening?
      Sometimes an effect of working in a toxic place is feeling like it’s a really great place to work, or that you would not be able to get a better job somewhere else. My first real job I had a really horrible boss, he would really mentally and verbally break me down and I thought I just had to take it. After he was let go, I felt like I was released from a mind-control situation. When I was in it, I thought it was just how things were for me but once it was over I saw how bad it was.
      Looking for work during the pandemic is hard but you should still keep your eye out. There are better places out there, and you should not have to deal with that woman.

    9. chickia*

      There’s been a lot of advice here about how to handle this and she usually says to bring it to your boss. I know your boss hasn’t been helpful in the past, but I would still bring the boss in on anything she does that is objectively impacts your work. “jane didn’t put through this phone call and as a result this was the impact on my work”, “jane isn’t speaking to me and as a result (xxx didn’t happen on time)”. Yes, your boss should have something more to say about all this besides “talk it out”. OMG SO AWFUL. your boss should be telling her that this isn’t acceptable behavior and enforcing consequences. She doesn’t have to like you (or you her), but silent treatment and gossiping isn’t acceptable. You already know that she is not going to change. And hopefully you already know that this isn’t about you at all right? (Since she’s been through how many other office mates!?!?). And you already know that co workers can’t be trusted . . . so the best you can do if you are staying there is to be absolutely above reproach in how you behave towards her. And bring absolutely everything that she does that affects your work output to your boss – and do it in a very calm, problem solving manner. Probably best if you can be specific about what you need: “I need Jane to respond to my emails within 24 hours to get the report out on time” or whatever. Maybe eventually your boss will do something about it? I’m so sorry you are going through all this!

    10. Not So NewReader*

      This is not a cohort problem.
      This is a boss problem.

      This woman is:
      Freezing you out
      Badmouthing you
      Lying about you
      Messing up your work
      Cussing at you
      Calling you names
      Mocking you
      Making fun of your physical appearance

      There have been 7 people in your position in 8 years.

      And your boss says to go have coffee together.

      “Oh is that on paid time, Boss? And shall I save my receipt for reimbursement?”

      This is what bad management looks like, OP. Right here.

      You are saying you have no choice but to stay.
      So next options are:
      Ignore this toxic cesspool of a person.
      Or
      Submit weekly reports to the boss of what has gone on this week until something radically changes.
      Your boss is not going to do anything until you make it painful for him.
      Have you even told him that she refused coffee with you? If not you need to start there in your update to the boss.

    11. Sharrbe*

      She’s actually trying to get a rise out of you because manipulation of you is her goal. It’s her sport. Don’t let her get a rise out of you. THAT’s what she wants. The best you can do is to act like what she’s doing doesn’t bother you.

    12. Kitten Caboodle*

      I’m in this position now. I wish I had advice for you, but I’ve been caught up in the same emotional spiral of more than one employee here because I didn’t react to their bad, attention seeking, unprofessional behavior. I too, was accused of avoiding these certain people (because I do) but they tried to spin it as I was trying to bully them by not participating in their hate circles. (that’s what I call them) They are some of the most miserable people I have ever worked with in my entire career and I’m just looking to get out asap. During COVID I was diagnosed with stage IV cancer and they make fun of my hair loss, have accused me of faking cancer and complain that I get to leave a half hour early one day a week (for chemo, btw) and claim it’s not fair.

      I just keep telling myself that I’m probably going to find another job, I will fight and beat this cancer, but they will still be the miserable a-holes they always were. Trust me, I don’t get it! It takes a lot of negative energy to be that miserable and I don’t know why anyone would want to be so unhappy all the time. (not to mention so cruel)

      I don’t know if it makes you feel any better – but you’re not alone. I’m getting calls by headhunters daily, so hang in there. Jobs are coming back, but not all of the furloughed and laid-off employees are! There’s a good job with kind people out there for the both of us!

      1. Binky*

        That’s awful. Do you have an HR? Because that sounds like discrimination on the basis of health status.

        Best wishes on your treatment!

      2. Juneybug*

        Wow, those people are horrible! I see in your future a healthy body, new job, and those toxic morons lose their jobs (karma).

    13. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Have you told your boss that this person has been continuing to ignore you? And that this person has escalated to personal insults? That is the first place to start. Assuming that you report to the same manager?

    14. Kathenus*

      I don’t have suggestions to help solve the problem, but some to consider for how you deal with it. We can’t control anyone else, only ourselves, so focus on what you have power over. It sounds like you have little or no power to control this coworker and some of the other personalities in your company – so accept that you can’t change this because trying to do something you have no control over is just an invitation to frustration. There are suggestions to engage your manager more on this, so this may be something in your control you can try.

      You mention that you weren’t successful finding another job, I’m not sure if you’re still trying or not, but if you aren’t I’d definitely suggest you continue to work on this – since looking for other opportunities is an area you can control (to a point, since you can apply but can’t control the outcome past having a strong cover letter and resume).

      So if/while you have not yet found another job, or if you’ve made a decision to stay due to your promotion and areas you are happy, then you’re left with one area of control – how you respond to the situation. If you have no power to control the behavior of the other people, and you have decided to stay or until you find another position, you can make a conscious choice to stop letting it affect you so strongly. I know that’s easier said than done but right now your coworker has a lot of power over you mentally, so the best that you can reduce that and shrug off her (and others’) behavior, the less control they have over you. It’s not easy and it takes conscious effort, but remember that you are in full control of your response so work really hard on not letting their behavior make you unhappy. Realize they are probably unhappy or insecure, which causes them to act like this, and be glad that you are a better human being.

      Long story short – control what you can, and let go of the things you can’t. Good luck.

    15. Toxic Waste*

      Is your environment laid back or is it more formal? I ask because I’ve been in your situation before and humor and sarcasm are great defense tools if you can master it. Also, playing along with what they say/do is also a powerful tool.

      Example: Jane said, “Liv looks like Chucky.”
      You: “I was actually in the last 2 movies!” or something to that effect.

      Someone once told me that I had “huge eyes”. The old me would either not say anything or mumble something. Instead, I told them, “All the better to see you my pretty” and cackled like a witch. They started laughing and never messed with me.

      This is what has helped for me being in this type of environment. It still hurts and I have gone home upset many times, but from 9-5 I am stone and (try) to show no emotion. No one is getting to me. My goal is to do the best job that I can do.

      They make fun, I laugh/play along. A coworker was making fun of my appearance and I said, “Darn. Guess I won’t win Miss America this year!” Another time, “Fergus” called to ask me why I didn’t do something or I missed something. I started talking about myself in the third person. “That darn Toxic Waste! What is their problem!” To my surprise, Fergus started laughing and thought it was the funniest thing.

      Again, it all depends on your environment and the people around you. The goal is to deflect their comments back to them and walkaway unscathed. Also, it stinks being in a pandemic, but if you can plan things to look forward to outside of work, that would give you something to focus on. (ie: Having dinner with friends, watching a good movie, taking a long walk, going to the store to try a new recipe.) The goal is to shift your focus so that you’re not dwelling on the situation. Best of luck and I hope things either improve or you can find an awesome new job with nice people.

    16. Llama Llama*

      What are the power dynamics now that you have been promoted? Are you still in a roll where you and she are on the same level? Have you talked with your manager directly about it? IMO telling the two of you to “get a cup of coffee and talk” is terrible management. If you haven’t already: 1) document everything 2) set a meeting with the manager to discuss how this is effecting your work. Focus on work, not feelings. I know that sucks but a reluctant manager is going to react more to “I can’t do x, y, z task because coworker is doing a,b,c” than to deal with hurt feelings even though hurt feelings and bullying are completely valid. 3) since you have been promoted, someone obviously thinks you’re doing a good job so in your meeting with your manager maybe there will be a way to leverage that. You could maybe go so far as to say that you can’t work with her anymore unless things change and you definitely don’t want to share an office when you return to work. Make a big enough deal out of it that the manager knows this is a REAL PROBLEM but don’t go so far as the manager can think “this person has too many feelings/weak/soft/sensitive whatever and it isn’t my job to deal with people’s feelings, this is work.”. Make it about untenable work conditions and use that promotion as a bargaining chip in this negotiation of your work environment 4) keep looking for jobs 5) there is a lot of good advice here on how to not react to these bullies. I would continue with that but also practice advocating for yourself. If you have an idea, defend it. Don’t let these shit heads pull it apart.

    17. AccountingNerd*

      I had a colleague in the HR Manager role who hated me, absolutely hated me. At first I engaged my boss in dealing with her. Apparently she was too and it was perceived as two women who hated each other and needed to figure out how to be professional. I was expressly told, in a performance review, to “eliminate the perception of disharmony between yourself and Jane.” So I did. I no longer said there was a problem. I had responsibility for Payroll so I ran effectively a shadow HR for payroll. I would matter-of-factly tell people they were welcome to ask me any questions about information on their paystub. I kept things accurate in the background and didn’t fuss about it. The more I stayed calm, the worse she got. But at that point only one of us was fussing. Mgmt got harder and harder on her and it eventually exploded & she left.

    18. Pennyworth*

      I’d just like to say I am impressed by your resilience in the face of a hostile workplace. And to get a promotion, too! Keep job hunting, and good luck. I’d love to read an update soon that you have escaped to a new position in a supportive environment.

    20. Owler*

      You said you are one of nine people there, so if coworker and colleague are both treating you poorly, that’s 25% of your coworkers. No wonder you are depressed and overwhelmed. Any way you can shift your hours (like 7-3pm), so you don’t overlap with the offending coworkers? Asking for a schedule change could be the opening to having a real conversation with your boss about the bullying. And I see your comment about wanting to stay to enjoy the promotion, but maybe with a few free hours in the evening, you can revisit the job search. Good luck.

    21. Dimity Hubbub*

      That sounds like a dreadful environment to be in all day long. A thought: humans are very social beings, and being surrounded by people who insist that up is down and you are wrong is incredibly tiring. Maintaining a different perspective to the groupthink will take you a lot of energy. Please be kind to yourself if you can’t seem to get much done. All your energy is focused on coping in this mess (source: job that went bad a while back).

    22. Blindsided Team Player*

      Keep looking for another job, keep your head down as much as possible and leave. If boss asks why I’d tell all of it.

      1. LogicalOne*

        I did the same thing at one of my part-time retail jobs in college. I kept quiet and eventually after dealing with some of the toxic assistant managers for a while, I went to the store manager and told her that I am putting in my two weeks. She seemed shocked and didn’t want me to leave. When she asked why I am putting in my two weeks, I flat out said that some people are not making this job and environment enjoyable and that I wanted to leave. She asked if there was anyone that was being mean or disrespectful to me and I hesitated and of course that hesitation was a flat out giveaway. She said, “Who is it?” When I told her that two of the 3 store managers were micromanaging me and mistreating me than other employees, she took it seriously and talked to her assistant managers. They fortunately left me alone and not long before that, one of the gruesome twosome managers left and then things calmed down. So it looked like the “ringleader” left.

        I am hoping this toxic employee that the OP is dealing with gets a similar fate and leaves or quits in the near future. All the best of luck to OP!!

  2. Should I apply*

    The seven year work itch? I am approaching seven years are my current company, and am desperate for a change. It isn’t specifically related to my job or coworkers just the desperate feeling that I want something different. This happened to me before, at my first company (after 6.5 yrs) and I ended up relocating across the country.

    Have you been desperate for a work change but didn’t know what you wanted to do? How did you approach it? I am currently job searching and have applied to a few positions, but I haven’t been very inspired by the opportunities.

    1. Sleepy*

      I am in a similar place. No great advice but commiseration. I was already a bit bored with my job when I got a new boss a year ago. He’s probably the best boss I’ve ever had, so it’s making me even even pickier about looking for something new.

      I’ve been taking community college classes at night, one at a time, in the hope of eventually making a career change. They give me something to tackle that’s more challenging than my work.

    2. Jenna Webster*

      This has come up more than once in my career – you’re settled in, you know how to do the work even when it gets complicated, and you just feel ready for something new. Sometimes a new job is just the thing, but I had a great discussion with a friend about this when I was thinking about looking for the next thing, and she asked me what I was doing to make work fun. The answer was nothing – I was just doing the job. For some reason, that really clicked with me, and I started some new projects, joined an interesting committee, and started revising our procedures. It was kind of like having a new job but without all the headaches. Now, whenever I get bored and start thinking about moving on, my first step is to see if I can find something fun to do. So far, so good!

      1. should i apply?*

        That’s an interesting framing. I can’t say that I am actively doing anything to make my job fun. I am starting a new project, which should be interesting, but I can’t seem to get excited for it.

        1. College Career Counselor*

          I have been working on a collaborative team project across the university. This has been a lot of work, but also a tremendous amount of fun/joy to see the project getting positive response/recognition. It’s not strictly part of my portfolio, but I have been feeling underutilized and/or in a rut lately, so it’s been sort of great to stretch myself, connect with new people on campus, incorporate aspects of my work in new creative ways, etc.

          For me, framing things as “how will this help students/the institution/the bottom line” is also helpful because that bigger picture (not just a discrete project) is a way to feel like I’m contributing more broadly.

      2. veronica*

        This happened to me too. I started the process of job searching. I made up a job description of my “ideal job.” I couldn’t find anything that was even close to my current job. So I sat down and figured out ways to make my current job more like my ideal job. It does involve some new projects and treating it like a whole different position.

    3. Overeducated*

      Yes, except my itch was three years :/ The office I used to work with as an entry level employee invited me to apply for my old boss’s job upon her retirement, and then offered it to me; it was a lateral move, but an opportunity to gain some experience I can’t get in my current position that I felt was limiting me, so I took it. Honestly, now that I feel I need to stay put here for a few years, I’m not sure if that was a good idea, or if I should have stuck around until I had clearer goals in mind. I don’t know what to tell you except this may be a situation where staying and leaving can both be good or bad decisions, it’s very much up to you what you want to make of them.

    4. Dancing Otter*

      Well, I finally solved the “I’ve been here too long” issue by going to a consulting firm. Every project was different enough that it was like getting a new job every few months to two years, without the downsides to job-hopping. But I had a profession I did NOT want to give up.

      Earlier “itchy feet” transitions, I just looked for something in that same functional area, but a different industry. It provided adequate variation without throwing away the experience and expertise built up previously.

      A similar job in a very different location might have worked, too, but I sadly never had the nerve to move out of my greater metro area. Good for you for having done that.

    5. Quinalla*

      Figure out what you enjoy most about your job, what is the most fun or what are you the most passionate about? See if you can find ways to do more of that at your current job – and if you are looking for opportunities, you are more likely to see them as well. If that isn’t available at your current job, think about what kind of job that would be a part of and go look for it.

      Not talking about dream job here or anything, but just making your job/career more enjoyable and fulfilling.

    6. cabbagepants*

      You have probably considered this, but you might look and see what your company has for internal moves. The job itself might be significantly different, but your experience with the company, its clients, its systems, etc could really count in your favor in an internal move in a way that it would not for a similar position at another company.

    7. ChangeItUp*

      This may not be quite the same, but for myself, I’ve been dissatisfied with my job for multiple job moves. I kept thinking it’s just the job, or the company. And I did have a couple legitimately bad jobs where I was mistreated. But a year and a half ago I found a good job at a good company that cares about its people, where it’s stable, and the people I work with are generally really good. But once the training period had passed, I found myself still dissatisfied. What’s more, after putting in a LOT of time and work to get my personal life better and more stable too, I’m still dissatisfied.

      What the time and space and stability I have now has afforded me is the capacity to realize I’m tired of this industry, tired of working in a lab, tired of being data-focused instead of people-focused, and tired of perfectionism being a requirement for the job. It’s just not a good fit for me anymore because of the ways I’ve grown as a person.

      Reading AAM’s recommendation of “Working Identities” has been helpful. At the moment, I’m planning on going back to school to become a counselor. And while I’m still working on figuring out next steps, but it’s a relief to finally know the source of the feelings and have a direction.

  3. Sunflower*

    Can anyone recommend a basic, inexpensive app to make digital illustrations for a side hustle?

    I’m starting a little side hustle and need to create some pretty basic stuff for my social. Key word being basic so I don’t need tons of bells and whistles – I’m planning for the logo to be no more than 2 colors and basic font wording and I’d like to create some branding for posts.

    3. ghostlight*

      Canva is super user-friendly and free to use (there is a premium version, but I can’t speak to that). I used it a lot for student orgs and presentations in college. They have a lot of different formats, fonts, pre-designed things, etc.

      1. IEanon*

        I second Canva! My best friend started her own side hustle recently, and she used Canva for all of her assets.

      2. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

        Seconding Canva – I use it to do all the marketing materials for my books and I think they look very polished!

    5. JJ*

      Backing up everyone who says Inkscape. I’m creative professional and use Adobe Illustrator in my work, but have fiddled with Inkscape and i seems to have most of the features you would need to create the types of assets you’re looking for!

    6. TWW*

      Not the question you asked, but if you’re willing to spend a little money, consider hiring a graphic designer on Upwork or a similar site.

      The difference between what a good graphic designer can do versus someone with less experience is often worth the price, especially for a company logo.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        True, but with something like Canva, their logo templates were designed by professional graphic designers anyway, so that would probably be the better (and cheaper) route to take for a basic logo.

    7. nep*

      I’ve got nothing to compare it to, but Canva is quite user-friendly and I’ve liked what I’ve been able to create there.

    9. Sunflower*

      Thanks to everyone for suggestions! I am highly considering hiring a graphic designer but I’d like to play around with some ideas and get a vision of what’s possible myself so these are great!

  4. Student Affairs Sally*

    I am struggling at my new job because it has turned out to be an extremely dysfunctional institution, and I’m basically not being allowed to do the job I was hired to do. My boss and team is great, but we’re basically being set up to fail by some of the most powerful people on campus, and then they act like “Why did you fail at that? You must be incompetent.” There’s also a pervasive culture of misogyny. Instead of being able to engage in high-level planning of new institutional programs, I’ve been effectively “demoted” to being an academic coach. I don’t mind being an academic coach and actually enjoy it, but I know it’s a bandaid solution to the real retention problems on campus and I’m being blocked from doing things that would actually help on a much larger scale. It’s very frustrating. I’m trying to focus on the fact that the move to our current location (which couldn’t have happened without this job) was overall much better for my family and my mental health, and remind myself every day that it’s the institution that’s dysfunctional and I actually am very smart and competent. I have to stay for a year to not have to pay back the relocation expenses, but I’m already getting my resume ready and trying to think about how I can spin this disaster into “accomplishments” for my resume – and explain why I’m leaving without trash-talking the institution.

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      I’ve had two jobs like this. Remember that it is not your job to fix the problems with the institution. Plus, you actually have an easy and completely true reason for leaving after a year — you aren’t doing the work you were hired to do. Focus on the relationships with your boss and the team, do what you can with what you are allowed to do, and get out with your head held high after a year. After 25+ years, the friends and contacts I made at those two “hell” jobs are still good friends and professional contacts.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Plus, you actually have an easy and completely true reason for leaving after a year — you aren’t doing the work you were hired to do.

        This. This is a very understandable reason for wanting to leave a job.

    2. cat lady*

      This may not be what you’re looking for, but I’ve worked at a few places where the campus-wide mantra re retention was “just one student,” meaning that if everyone on campus helps just one student succeed, that’s a retention win. So focusing on the individual students you’re helping as an academic coach may help you feel less dissatisfied?

      Honestly, I’m in a job now where I’m working on student retention from a college-wide/programmatic perspective and I no longer really get to coach students one on one, and I’m really struggling with missing that feeling of regularly making a tangible difference for an individual.

      1. Student Affairs Sally*

        I truly love working with students, and one of my favorite parts of what this job was *supposed* to be was that I would have the opportunity to do BOTH working directly with students and also leading larger-scale projects. It’s a very small school so most people wear several hats. I get intense satisfaction out of helping individual students, but I also want to be able to provide more proactive support. Our campus doesn’t have an FYE course and first-year advising is a MESS. I was hired to fix those things, but now they’ve been determined to not be institutional priorities for at least the next academic year. So instead I’m working with students who are already struggling and already failing classes, and helping them course correct. It’s still very rewarding, but I just feel like it would be so much more impactful if we could help students get these skills when they first come in the door rather than when they’re already failing.

        Also I have TONS of downtime because the students that my institution serves aren’t always the most likely to reach out to help, especially from someone they don’t know well. I’m working on building relationships but it’s hard when half of our students are remote. Most of the students I work with are required to meet with me because they’re on probation. I just feel like I’m being underutilized – which is a big part of why I left my last job.

        1. kbeers0su*

          Ok, so with this additional context and knowing the general way higher ed is operating these days, my guess is that this comes down to one of a few things.
          1) It’s possible that due to COVID impacts on faculty the institution can’t add additional work to faculty loads right now. Faculty need to be involved in course development (or at last chairs/provost) and it’s probably not in their bandwidth. That’s not to say that everyone hasn’t had to adjust, but faculty have specific contracts and when they have issues they usually get to move to the front of the line.
          2) It’s possible this is a territory issue. I’m not sure if you’re housed in student affairs or academic affairs, and even if you’re in academic affairs you’d need to report to the provost and have their support. Many universities see failure in their FYE area because faculty think they should design the courses and teach them. But when faculty design them and teach them, they aren’t true FYE courses. And faculty don’t want the extra work. Nor do they want non-faculty impeding on their territory and teaching courses. So basically if they can’t do it their way, then no one gets to do it.
          3) Was there a major change (other than COVID) at the university since you were hired? There has been a lot of high-level turnover in general at universities in the past year. Add to that COVID exposing other weaknesses at universities. So it could be that whoever championed the development of FYE courses left, or that the university generally had to pivot because other things did become priority.

          All this to say that if you’re not hearing from your higher-ups that this is going to be a priority at this moment, I wouldn’t necessarily lose hope yet. If you can, read minutes from your Board of Trustees meetings or other high-level meetings. That can help you figure out what they see priorities and where the university’s resources and efforts are currently being funneled. Also, you might find out (if you go back through old minutes) where the support for FYE came from, and when it disappeared. That sort of thing isn’t developed within a department- it’s a cross-campus change that would require top-level support and discussion.

          1. Student Affairs Sally*

            The problem is actually the provost. He’s a nice man but he refuses to lead. We had a plan to have the course taught primarily by staff (including myself) and only a few faculty, and faculty actually broadly supported the proposal (there were a few dissenters, but they weren’t the major players so it probably would have passed without their approval). But the provost decided not to put it to a vote for reasons that aren’t entirely clear to anyone I’ve spoken to about it, other than a fear of change I guess. He also took another significant part of what my job was supposed to be and re-assigned it to a man (even though it much more closely aligns with my background than his, and I had already done significant work on it). There’s an overwhelming culture of misogyny at the institution – this month we actually started a women’s group for female faculty and staff to come together and discuss the misogyny we have encountered and to strategize ways to change the culture of the institution.

        2. Blackcat*

          Do you have institutional data on the introductory courses with the highest DFW rates?
          If so, can you reach out directly to those faculty?
          I’m thinking, as a faculty person, if someone in your role reached out and said, “Hi, I’m X. I do Y supports for students. What can I do to help you?” I would like…. send you a virtual hug and have you drop into zoom class to introduce yourself to my students.
          As long as you wouldn’t get in trouble for this, I could see partnering with some of the folks who teach tons of freshman as going well. One semester, I had 200 freshman, and it’s just so. darn. hard. to identify, let alone support, all of the freshpeeps who need extra help. Unless there’s a bad culture at the institution, I think you’ll find some people who would love to work with you directly.

    3. Artemesia*

      Sounds awful. I once didn’t take a job that would have moved my family and uprooted my husband’s career because of a vague spidey sense — turned out the CEO of the org had embezzled and the whole thing crashed and burned for the friend of mine who did take the job, I didn’t. Really feel for your situation.

      Your words will need to be something like ‘the program I was hired to run was cancelled by the institution before I arrived and (fill in your accomplishments that you managed anyway) and so I am looking for (the kind of challenge you are looking for.). I hope you can emotionally distance yourself from the mission that can’t be accomplished, take pleasure in what you CAN accomplish and find something better on the 367th day. Meanwhile take care of your own head.

    4. Sherm*

      I think you’ll be fine if you’re matter-of-fact about the problems while interviewing, but keep it brief and focus on the positives of the job you’re applying for. (Your interviewers will want to know why you’re “for” the new job, not just against the old job.) I was part of a group interview panel, and the interviewee explained that one reason she was job searching was that her boss wanted her to do something ethically sketchy. No one was shocked that she dare say something critical of her current employer. It was actually an interesting situation she was describing, and after she left we had a thoughtful conversation about it.

  5. Estimated Salaries*

    Does anyone have direct experience with the accuracy of estimated salaries on sites like Glassdoor/Indeed? Like a posting listed $X, but you applied and found out it was actually $Y?

    I know that it says “estimated,” but salary is driving my search process, so any data is relevant. BLS/industry data is not matching reality for me.

    1. should i apply?*

      They were really large ranges and somewhat off for my field and location (engineering / Seattle) so I personally would view them with skepticism.

      1. ilikecoffee*

        I find that GlassDoor seems to mostly code by job title, not actual responsibilities or duties, so if you have a somewhat generic job title then GD will be really inaccurate. e.g. “electrical engineer” can be anyone from an entry-level cable guy to someone doing civil infrastructure planning to someone designing circuits and pay anything from $12/hr to $250k/year or more.

    2. Catherine*

      Hi! I work in HR in these are definitely estimates, but how off it is will depend on the industry. At my non-profit, candidates get really snippy when I share our range is lower so definitely check with the org. Especially if you’re looking at a low paying industry, it’ll group the role in with higher paying industries. The company doesn’t set them or approve them.

    3. Hawkeye is in the details*

      I’ve found them to be very inaccurate. The variables that go into the calculations are so vast. Location, industry, job title with varying meanings and duties. It’s not helpful.

      You’ll be much better off talking to people in your location and industry. Contact a local association that hosts networking events for your field. Reach out on LinkedIn, even if it’s cold contacting, or an old contact who had a similar role. Don’t ask for THEIR salary, but explain that you’re trying to nail down a reasonable range, taking into account your experience and the specific duties of the job listing, and ask for their opinion. You’ll get much closer to reality that way.

      1. should i apply?*

        I did this with old co-workers who had similar jobs but had left my current company. I was surprised how many of them responded.

    4. Drago Cucina*

      I have no idea how they estimate the salaries of librarians, but they are so off that I stopped looking at them.

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        Yeah, for librarianship, I recommend just using the fact that there are enough state and city and uni librarians whose salaries are public, so you just work from those lists and do your own math. Glassdoor and Indeed are both super way off in my experience.

    5. irene adler*

      I’ve found them to be very ‘off’- especially when the cited salary range is very wide (like $42K to $95K). With several I found the lowest cited figure is the accurate figure (ouch!).

  6. Jellyfish*

    What’s your personal definition of success at work?

    We can’t all be massively wealthy CEOs, and I usually don’t aspire to that anyway. This week I’m feeling like I’ll never be enough in a professional context though, and I’m trying to come up with some personal ways to combat that.

    1. Putting the "pro" in "procrastinate"*

      For me it’s about doing work that I’m pleased with or proud to have done. Some of the things I’ve done that feel like success to me include delivering a presentation that I think is clear and effective, or writing some content that gets good customer feedback, or giving feedback to one of my reports that they take and that makes their work better, or helping one of my reports do something they want to do, like getting them onto a project team that is of interest to them. So the metrics of success can vary depending upon the different hats I wear, but the common thread is “I did something that I felt good about, and it made a difference, big or small.”

    2. JJ*

      I feel like, at least in the American workplace, we put WAY too much emphasis on the idea of “advancement = success”. I’m sure I’ll never be a CEO or the “head” of anything, but I’m not particularly interested in the work of a CEO or high level manager.

      I suppose I feel “successful” when I know I’ve done my job well, when my manager is pleased with my work and I’m pleased with my work, when I’m still actively learning and stretching myself, and when I feel I’m being compensated in a way that reflects the amount of effort I put in.

      1. Just no*

        I totally agree. In my field, advancement/promotion means that you stop providing direct services and take on a lot of administrative/bureaucratic tasks that I would never, ever want to do (nor would I be any good at them). But I still find myself thinking about “moving up the ladder” because that’s what you’re supposed to want.

      2. Sled dog mama*

        Yes, too often advancement = success! I have been in my career for 10 years, the only difference in title between now and when I started is that I am no longer a Junior Llama Groomer, I do the exact same things I just have fewer questions on what exactly to do when the purple Llama comes in and their owner wants them groomed like a poodle. In 10 years or so, if I’m lucky I might feel comfortable being called a Senior Llama groomer (not really a title in my field more of a recognition of time in field and breadth of experience) but probably not. I am in a field where I will have the same title for the rest of my career. The only way to take on more reports or more responsibilities is move to a larger company (which I hated) where there are more people in my field. The only way to get a “higher title” is to change professions and become c-suite management.
        I love what I do but promotion is not part of success in it.
        On the other hand getting a “no violations identified” see you in 2 years letter from the state board at my biennial program review, that’s success!

      3. Liz*

        Agreed. I’ve been with my company for 20+ years. basically doing the same thing, although my job has changed with the changing of time; less paper, more electronic, etc. about a year and a half ago, I got a promotion. to my bosses job. I do a few more things that i took over from him, but everything I did before, as we went from 3 to 2. But we have a new boss, who is so much better than the one that left. He is good about giving praise, and when things needs some “help” he’s not at all nasty, but frames it in a way “this was good, blah blah, but I think we need to add this to it to make it better” and so on.

        No one leaves here either as the benefits are amazing. And I’m not exaggerating. I also have maybe 10-12 years until I retire, so i have no plans to go anywhere unless I don’t have a choice because I’d never get anything close to the benefits I have here.

        So success for me is much the same; even if my job isn’t the most exciting thing in the world!

      4. Diahann Carroll*

        I suppose I feel “successful” when I know I’ve done my job well, when my manager is pleased with my work and I’m pleased with my work, when I’m still actively learning and stretching myself, and when I feel I’m being compensated in a way that reflects the amount of effort I put in.

        This is my philosophy as well.

    3. snack queen*

      – are my coworkers / team leads / project managers happy with my work? do i get requested to be put onto projects that require my set of skills? do we all have good working relationships to solve the inevitable problems without any of the bad behaviors often shown on this site? is my opinion seen as valid & taken seriously?

      – i’m in the design field so many parts of my job are subjective. do the clients respond well to my presentations and do they go forward with my ideas? can my designs actually be built successfully (even if they have to be adjusted here and there?)

      if yes to all this, then i think i am doing a great job. sure, i could be on magazine covers and earning 6 figure commissions. however i see work as something i do to fund my hobbies and leisure time so knowing i give it my best in exchange for money and 40 hours a week is good enough for me. the extra stress and time commitment of a high profile / high paid position isn’t worth it.

    4. LDN Layabout*

      That I do good work, am seen as a go-to within my team, my work has a positive impact and I earn enough to support myself and live comfortably.

    5. Sleepy*

      I work a nonprofit and I make a pretty low salary compared to a lot of my friends, but I get a lot of satisfaction from the feeling that I’m making a positive impact on the world. I don’t think charity is the only way to get that feeling; plenty of businesses have a positive impact too. I also highly value integrity at work, the feeling that the way we sell our brand and our programs matches their reality.

    6. starsaphire*

      Being able to go home (well, pre-Covid) at the end of the day not feeling sad or angry or miserable. Being able to hit a stride in my work where I’ve got good music on my headphones and I’m lost in my work, and I look up and two hours have passed. Getting positive feedback from my supervisor and being able to believe that I deserve it.

      1. Twisted Lion*

        +1 this. Have a job you dont think about in your off hours because there isnt anything to think about lol.

    7. Tiger*

      Personal definition? So I’m an “admin 1” type job. According to HR, my job title is admin assistant 1. According to my department, I have a different title, but I’ll work off the HR titles for this comment.

      I’d consider myself successful if, over the course of a year, I learn something new about my department or overall company and can apply that to my job successfully. I do basic clerical work, but learning about how we operate at a basic or big level is helpful, and those conversations are ones that the admin 2’s and folks with other titles are usually included in. I also feel successful when I’m secure enough that I feel I could get an internal department job (like an admin 2 job) if I applied. This also falls largely into “personal definition of success”- but I feel successful when I leave at 5pm and don’t have to think about work until 8am the next business day. That’s largely why I took this particular admin 1 job: it pays well enough that I can live the life I want, and work remains “at work.”

    8. Overeducated*

      I’m not sure about a definition, but I have noticed I feel most fulfilled and excited when I’m able to work with others to build something. It can be anything – new guidance for programs, a data management system, an outreach strategy – but I think both the collaborative process, and being able to look back and realize I’ve left some kind of mark, make me feel successful on a daily and then annual basis.

    9. Schnoodle*

      Giving an honest 40 hours, decent coworkers, easy commute, good benefits to include matching for retirement.

      That’s it. My career and job is not my life. As you said I’m not looking to be CEO.

      I’ve paid off my home in my early 30’s and look forward to “retiring” early, working at Trader Joe’s or something part time for a while, low stress, hanging on til I get healthcare otherwise, and cruise on.

    10. CatCat*

      Get to the top of the level where I am now (almost there! the only move up from there is management, and I have no interest in management). Maintain respect of supervisors, peers, and clients. Drop down to a part-time schedule.

    11. Green Goose*

      For me, it’s more about interest in the work and salary increases than about advancement. I have moved up in my company, but the next level up from me would be such a massive increase in responsibility that I’m just not interested in that. I’m not willing to give up any more of my small and precious family time even for a big bump in salary.

      My partner is similar, he has held the same title for about 6-7 years but his company has amazing benefits and gives him a generous raise every year so he is happy with that.

    12. Asenath*

      Being able to keep a roof over my head and getting satisfaction from doing my job well – even when the work in question isn’t particularly respected or of interest to others.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      There’s small successes such as streamlining a process or successfully assisting someone with a problem.

      The larger successes include watching my own progress and “knowing that I know”, as in “I got this one.”
      Another sense of larger success is when others who do not work immediately with me, seem to think something of my work or my thoughts on things.
      In an odd thing, I feel successful at work if I have learned who does what. When X goes wrong, ask Bob. When Y goes wrong talk to Sue. I know who is good at what.

      1. Diahann Carroll*

        Another sense of larger success is when others who do not work immediately with me, seem to think something of my work or my thoughts on things.

        Same here. I have regional directors and VPs coming to me for help with something they need written, and that makes me feel pretty cool that I’m the one they look to for these things. It’s a pretty big deal where I work.

    14. HigherEdAdminista*

      Because of the institution I work for, I am unlikely to ever be promoted. Positions above me that I am qualified for seem to be scarcer than hen’s teeth, and would definitely require a big change to obtain. However, the benefits here are very good and I like my coworkers and my work, so I don’t feel like a move is something I am planning on right now.

      I try to focus instead on how well the things I am working on work out. Are my projects successful? Do I take new opportunities when they arise? Am I working with integrity to what I want to do? I also try to look to the things my job facilitates in my life and see if I am keeping up with those. Am I able to receive the healthcare I need? Do I feel like I have enough time for leisure/family/friends because of a decent work life balance? Am I paid enough to feel I am comfortable with my expenses and able to save for my wants, as well as for the future?

      We tend to be presented with a pretty narrow vision of success, and often monetary rewards are tied to it, but for me success is about having a life I am comfortable with as a whole, and if my job is facilitating that and I can feel like I’m doing good work at the same time, that is success enough for me.

    15. Mimmy*

      I don’t love my job and am hoping to move on within the next year, but here’s my definition at this point. For context, I am an instructor with blind and visually impaired adults.

      – When a student thanks me when they “graduate” from my part of their program
      – When I have a discussion with another instructor and/or the supervisor about a student issue and I feel like my input was valued
      – When management recognizes me for specific knowledge beyond my teaching discipline and invite me to present on it to students or staff

    16. Sugaree*

      Something I’ve realized after 20+ years of professional work history is that there is no joy (and rarely lasting success) in being aimlessly ambitious.

      The idea of getting a raise or moving into my boss’s role being the only marker of professional success doesn’t speak to me anymore. My goals are focused on the type of work vs. the title or promotion which makes it MUCH easier to feel successful. It’s a bonus/by product that doing that has lead to promotions, etc.

    17. Lizy*

      Mine’s changed, for sure.

      A couple of years ago, my definition of success would have been much more tied to how I changed things/improved things/got a promotion… now? Bills are paid, I’m confident in my role, and that’s it lol. I’m successful.

    18. Momma Bear*

      Doing something I like reasonably well/am reasonably good at with people I can respect as professionals who respect me in return, with good benefits and a healthy work/life balance.

    19. Wordybird*

      My idea of success at work is being in a role that uses my skills & abilities while still allowing me the opportunity to learn new skills/techniques/software, recognizes me as a person with a life outside of work and compensates me accordingly (at- or above-market salary, benefits, PTO, etc.), involves working with an ethical organization that makes a difference in the world, and employs kind intelligent hard-working people that I can count on and collaborate with effectively and efficiently.

  7. E.N.*

    I have a friend looking for a career and was wondering if anyone had any suggestions. He has no degree and a background in retail/waiting tables with nursing assistance. He’s a very active person who doesn’t like sitting around, he is ALWAYS looking for the next thing to do to keep working and keep moving. He is very charming and loves to help people.

    The most important thing for him is that his hard work is recognized, preferably financially. If he works harder than everyone else, he wants title, money, and responsibility to follow that hard work. For better or worse, he’s big on “fairness”. His original career plan was nursing, but he wasn’t satisfied in the field when it turned out that (to his mind) those doing less than he did got more recognition. I have been talking to him about adjusting expectations because I think some of this is a “him” problem, but if anyone has a field that seems fitting please let me know!

    1. Sunflower*

      It sounds like sales would be a great fit or possibly hotel operations. I think more people in sales have degrees than 20 years ago but it’s definitely easier to break into without a degree than other areas.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Along the lines of Hotel Operations, I was thinking of luxury Senior Living. He could start on the service side and make his way into management/operations/leasing.

        1. Artemesia*

          I would be surprised if the upper level roles there would not require a degree. But this guy is flying a lot of red flags. ‘Fairness’ is often code for belligerence and that doesn’t win friends.

          1. E.N.*

            You’re not totally wrong about the red flags, but to his credit he does make friends easily. He’s fiercely loyal and incredibly charming. He often has the support of management and his coworkers very quickly. I know all this to be true because both myself and my fiancée have worked alongside him in the past.

            He is a little lost right now which is why I’m trying to help. I’m just hoping to help connect him with something that fits his strengths! On the flip side, if I were a stranger on the internet reading this I’d be 100% sure he’s bad news.

            1. Momma Bear*

              I had an exBF who was a little like that and was his own worst enemy because he refused to put in time in office. He wanted to skip straight to what he thought he deserved, and didn’t talk to his bosses about how to get from A to B. Didn’t help that he quit college and was trying to compare himself to people with 1. more experience and 2. a degree in the field.

              So maybe have that conversation with your friend – with the nursing thing, was he one and done, or did he try another organization? Did he try variants like being a home health aide vs working in a facility? Would he go back to school to get another level of degree? Would he be happier in some kind of healthcare management vs patient treatment?

              As far as I am aware, my ex is still busy shooting himself in the foot with his ego, which is a shame because he really is smart and good at what he likes to do…if he would only get past his perception of what he/others “deserve” he would do very well for himself. Happiness is not found looking at someone else’s plate with envy. It is learning how to put what you need on your own plate.

      2. E.N.*

        You’re right, I haven’t recommended that to him because it’s so so NOT me, but it may work better for him.

        I should also have said that he would be willing to go back for a degree or certification, he would just want to be reasonably sure the career path would work for him.

        1. I am not the Lorax*

          Sales is a great suggestion. I would imagine if he’s working on commission, then the more successful he is, the more $$$ he would get.

        2. Artemesia*

          There are no guarantees. He sounds like the kind of guy who makes a big deal on the third date about having been ‘hurt before’ and wanting a guarantee that you won’t dump him. Yeah, life doesn’t work like this.

          He is smart to not do a random degree at this point but he needs to at least work with bosses about how to get from A to B to C and then complete the certification he needs as he puts in his time. I had an uncle like this whose career was characterized by quitting one thing after another because they weren’t fair and he deserved better and someone else always got the promotion he ‘should have had.’ Sounds like some therapy focused on personal management would be useful.

    2. Zephy*

      Sounds like a lot of it is a “him” problem, but it’s not your job to adjust his expectations or manage his feelings about it when the world doesn’t work the way he believes it should.

      But yeah, sales or hospitality is probably a good place to start.

      1. E.N.*

        No, it’s definitely not my job but I like to help my friends when I can. Not to the point it drives me crazy, of course, but a gentle nudge here or there can sometimes help and rarely hurts. Sales is making a ton of sense to me. Thanks!

      2. AcademiaNut*

        The issue I see with his attitude is that he’s using hard work as the metric, and in jobs with strong performance based incentives, it’s not the hard work but the results that get rewards. So someone could work fewer hours than he does, but get a bigger bonus/higher salary/promotion because they are more experienced and more efficient. It’s particularly difficult when he’s new to a job and is still mastering it.

        Sales rewards results, but doesn’t directly reward effort.

        Maybe something that has good overtime options. Then working longer hours correlates directly to more money.

        1. Diahann Carroll*

          All of this. I don’t work nearly as hard as other people (and never have in any of my past positions), but I get shit done and have historically been rewarded for it even if outsiders didn’t think I deserved it since I appeared to work less than they did. That’s what being efficient gets you.

          1. Artemesia*

            My daughter is like this and once got reamed out for leaving at 6 when ‘poor Sally had to be there till 2 getting the job finished.’ She had done three quarters of the job before leaving and Sally just had a couple of small things to do — not even her own ‘half’ of the task, but managed to dither around the office late doing her tiny share.

            Offices are filled with people who dink around all day and then ‘have to work late’ — I have always assumed they didn’t have a life or were avoiding being at home for family responsibilities.

    3. Sleepy*

      He sounds like a great fit for sales, something where interpersonal skills are important and there’s a concrete measurement in $$ of how well everyone is doing. He sounds like he would do well somewhere where people aren’t on just salary but get a bonus per sale, so his direct contributions would be rewarded. Maybe real estate.

    4. Bagpuss*

      Sales, or other commission based work might be a good fit, as it would mean that he would earn more if he was performing better than others.

      He could also look at whether it would make sense for him to think about studying part time to get a degree, if he feels that that would enable him to move further up in whatever profession he wants to go into.

      He might also look at trades – skilled tradespeople can earn well, and he could potentially look at long term plans of being self-employed and running his own business, once he had the relevant skills and qualifications, which would give him the opportunities for more responsibility, and (if he were successful) financial rewards.

      Obviously he might need to take an initial dip in income because he would be learning a new trade, and depending on age might need to consider how long he could continue in a physically demanding role, but it may be something to consider.

      2. Pond*

        I definitely recommend getting an undergraduate degree just to have the piece of paper, even if it’s done part time over several years. I know people who were great at their work but couldn’t advance because they didn’t have the piece of paper, so they eventually went back to school (part time while working full time) to get it.

        1. Artemesia*

          This is one of the few reasons to get an on line degree or patch together something in night school. The piece of paper is sometimes a requirement for advancement even when it is nonsense that it is.

    6. bunniferous*

      Ordinarily I would say real estate would be a perfect fit but right now would be a very bad time to get into the field in my area, anyway. But in general he sounds MADE for it.

    7. Squidhead*

      I’m an RN. In many parts of the country, nursing is a solid path to a middle-class salary with just a 2 year degree plus the licensure exam. It is not, however, common that nurses get performance-based financial awards. You don’t get a bonus if you had fewer patient emergencies or the most on-time med passes or whatever. Overtime is usually easy to find, though, especially for off-shifts, so increasing your income is definitely possible!

      Nursing school is a challenge, especially if he bristles at every perceived unfairness. (There are many nursing forums he can check out to read about nursing school.) If he wants to be a nurse he has to get into and then get through nursing school and pass the exam, no two ways about it. I have a liberal arts degree and a nursing degree and the two experiences were NOTHING alike.

      As to his previous experience as a nursing assistant–he might not be wrong, or he might be wrong but not understand why. On a busy unit, the NAs (at least the good ones!) do a lot more physical work than the RNs. They bathe patients, take vitals, feed people who can’t feed themselves, do incontinence care, answer call lights, transport patients, etc… It’s on-your-feet all the time, often with several people wanting your attention or help at once. The rift between NAs and RNs can be wide in some places because the RN is actually responsible and accountable for all the care provided to the patient, but the RN delegates the types of tasks I described so that the RN can do all the *other* tasks that are within their purview (medication, wound care, discharge planning, dealing with a change in patient condition, education, lab work folllow-up, etc…). So it’s not uncommon that the RN might be at the desk on the phone or reviewing a chart and the NA might be running from room to room. The RN’s job is simply different than the NA’s, and this can play out in ways that are appropriate OR that are unbalanced. So I can’t say that his perception was wrong but he may not really have understood the scope of the jobs around him. (NAs who go on to become RNs often say they had no idea how busy the RNs were.)

      Best of luck to him–I hope he lands in something he enjoys and finds rewarding! (And we need nurses, so maybe he’ll give it another look!)

    8. Sleepless*

      If it paid better, I would suggest going to vet tech school. It’s a 2 year associate’s degree, and licensed veterinary technicians are in HIGH demand right now. It’s physically active, rewarding, and has an endless number of skills to improve. But there is pretty much no chance to move up or make more money.

    9. MissDisplaced*

      Sounds like he’d enjoy being some sort of fitness trainer, or physical therapist (degree)

    10. Torrance*

      I don’t have any advice but I wanted to say that it’s a really kind thing you’re doing, looking for advice to help a friend. He sounds like a really great person & this world isn’t always kind to people like that. Expecting fairness shouldn’t be seen as a problem but that’s the way the world works (unfortunately).

      He’s lucky to have a friend like you to help him along his journey. :)

  8. Neko*

    I’m a relatively new manager and have a situation I’m not sure how to deal with. One of my direct repots, Kasey, recently came out as nonbinary, and uses they/them pronouns. My department, and our company in general, is supportive of LGBT+ people and we don’t tolerate misgendering or transphobia.

    Another one of my reports, Jane, works closely with Kasey. For a few weeks, Jane refused to use they/them pronouns, frequently “forgot” or misgendered Kasey when they weren’t around. I had several talks with Jane, told her that she cannot continue to misgender Kasey under any circumstances. After a few of these talks, Jane actually ended up apologizing to me and Kasey, and said it wouldn’t happen again. It hadn’t, and everything seemed fine.
    However, a few weeks after this, Jane- who identified as female before- suddenly came out with an… ususual gender identity. Think something like naturegender or flowergender, and Leaf/Leafs/Leafself pronouns. I know I’m not using these pronouns here, but it’s because I’m fairly certain that Jane is mocking Kasey with this new gender and pronouns. I asked her in a private meeting if this her real identity and if she’s being honest. She got defensive, told me yes, and how dare I accuse her of making something up, etc. Many others have come to me complaining that Jane is transphobic and doing this to prove a point of some kind.

    Other reasons I’m skeptical of Jane: she still presents quite feminine, has not changed her name, and also doesn’t seem to correct people outside our department using she/hers as much (including clients). She came into work one day, loudly announced to everyone her gender identity, and to anyone who had questions regarding her pronouns etc, she’d assert that her gender is not to be questioned. (She also won’t accept they/them)

    I don’t know what to do. Jane has threatened to report us to HR for transphobia if I don’t respect these pronouns, and most of my reports are tiptoeing around her, trying to avoid using any pronouns at all. She is very adamant about correcting me and the rest of my team if we don’t use “Leaf” pronouns. What do I do here?

    1. Web Crawler*

      I might be missing something here*, but I’d use Leaf pronouns. You know she’s acting in bad faith, but it’s not a good look to try to police who’s gender should be respected. Definitely do something about the transphobia though. That’s a separate issue.

      * I don’t know a whole lot about work stuff, but I know a lot of trans and non binary people (and am one). That’s how I’d approach it in any other context

      1. Ya Girl*

        I agree. If she’s acting in bad faith then her best case scenario is that everyone makes a big deal about not using these pronouns for her so she can use that against Kasey. If everyone cheerfully uses these leaf pronouns and acts like it’s no big deal then she has no ammo against Kasey and she’ll likely give it up if she is acting in bad faith.

        But do keep an eye on her, you can’t police what she calls herself but I would be looking out any signs of transphobia that may pop up. And if you haven’t already, document all of your previous conversations with her about Kasey, I have a feeling you’ll need it later.

      2. Bagpuss*

        I agree. Use it , take it totally seriously and instruct the rest of your department to do the same.

        And, separately, deal with the concerns others have raised about transphobia. Make sure that people are clear on how and to whom to report them, liaise with HR to determine how to deal with that issue – i.e. whether / when you make it a formal disciplinary issue with Jane, whether additional training for her is appropriate etc.

    2. Homo neanderthalensis*

      Ok so yes- she is clearly doing this for attention/transphobia reasons and she sucks. BUT here’s the thing- the solution is quite simple. Accept what she’s doing at complete face value- and use those pronouns- and since she’s not insisting on those pronouns with people outside the department? You need to talk to the bosses outside your department, and talk very strongly about how you need Jane to not be misgendered. Loudly tell the people outside your department about how seriously this must be taken and that you wont accept Jane being referred to as She/her etc. she’s expecting you to blow off her bullshit and that gives her leverage for a bad faith lawsuit. So don’t blow it off! (I would inform Kasey what you’re doing and why- they need to be aware and able to protect themselves) I suspect after the first couple of emails to other department heads that CCs Jane about how important it is that the company respects leaf- Jane will realize she’s only shooting leafself in the foot. (Root?)

      1. Bean Counter Extraordinaire*

        Thank you for the laugh this morning, it was much needed! Shooting leafself in the root…. *snickers*

      2. RabbitRabbit*

        I wonder if management needs to do anything around updating Jane’s gender with the company, including for purposes of health insurance, as appropriate.

        1. Homo neanderthalensis*

          Omg yes. Like find every goddamn form that would need to be changed if leaf was earnest (I haven’t even gone to the trouble of changing my ID since it’s such a goddamn pain, and where I live I can get the NB or X on it) and spend a spare hour or two going over exactly the documentation you legally require and then like for bonus offer to help leaf with non-work required paperwork for changing legal gender (let me help contact you with services etc etc) see how fast leaf drops it.

          1. Actual trans person*

            No one is obligated to update their documents when they come out. I understand trying to use bureaucratic means to get Jane to drop it, but this is bad advice. It took me a year to update my DL/insurance and two to update passport, and in the meantime my new pronouns/name/identity was no less valid. Don’t further gatekeeping and transphobia yourself while trying to fight her transphobia.

            OP, treat Jane like you would any other person who told you about new pronouns. Don’t out Jane if you wouldn’t put others (and I sure hope you wouldnt), give Jane the same help of “you can update your email signature, email HR, how else would you like me to support you?”, replace pronouns with her name if you can’t remember to use leaf (I notice when people are doing that and it makes me chuckle. And appreciate that they are trying). If it’s not real she’ll drop it soon enough, and in the meantime you’re normalizing treating people with respect even when you don’t understand them. You can give teammates a heads up.

      4. Nell*

        No, please do not tell people outside the department no matter how tempting. I’m taking the OP at their word and accepting that Jane is likely acting in bad faith. Even then, acting in good faith is important for the OP’s position and loudly publicizing someone’s preferred gender identity and pronouns is not acceptable when the person is genuine. It’s forcibly outing someone and not acceptable. The OP does not want to get a reputation for it, especially considering the grapevine is unlikely to have the full facts surrounding the matter. It could be exceedingly damaging to the OP and anyone non-straight, non-cisgender in the company who hears about it.

        1. Bagpuss*

          Yes, treat it in every way as you did Kasey’s situation when they came out. Change how you address Leaf, make sure that other people in the department do the same, make clear to leaf that you will support them as and when they wish to come out to others in the wider company, remind leaf of the options to update pronouns in e-mail signatures, on internal documents etc,

          Don’t ‘out’ Jane without permission, and if necessary ask leaf what terms / pronouns you should use if speaking to someone outside the department / outside the company .

      5. Artemesia*

        This is what I would do. Make her own the nonsense. The benefit is that, if it is real (which we know it isn’t here) then she has been shown appropriate respect; if it is not real and embarrasses her outside the department, she will have consequences for being a jerk to Kasey. I mean, it would have to be part of any recommendation letter if she moved on and needed a reference.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Adding: She should be sure to add it to her signature block on all emails so that everyone is properly reminded of her preferences. She will need to have her personal file, insurance plan and driver’s license updated also. (If the company keeps DLs on file, that is.)
          Just generally, have her do whatever her cohort has done.

      6. Lizy*

        Yep – let Kasey know what you’re doing and why, and accept Jane’s new pronouns and use the heck outta them.

        If she’s faking it, she’ll get pissed and (hopefully) eventually give up, at which point you can explain how incredibly wrong/hurtful/rude/everything it was and that this has given you serious pause to her judgement and blah blah blah.

        If she’s not, well, you’ve shown how you support your employees even if you don’t agree with them and you’ve lost nothing and possibly gained a lot of respect and admiration.

        1. Momma Bear*

          Yes. Clue in Kasey. And HR. Encourage others to go to HR about what they have experienced with Jane.

          But I agree to go all in with this. If she shows other aggressions re: Kasey or anyone else, call leasfself on it. Regardless of what someone refers to themselves as, they still don’t get out of being terrible to others. This is not a get out of being respectful to Kasey card. I wouldn’t go out of my way to declare it to other departments, but I would refer Jane this way and not worry if someone else is listening. If someone says, “What is that about?” You can tell them what she told you. Let them determine from there what they think. My guess it that this childish behavior will stop eventually.

      7. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

        Yes! The most effective way to disarm any kind of passive aggressive behaviour (which leaf’s (?) definitely is) I’ve found is it treat it exactly at face value…

    3. Intermittent Introvert*

      Can you just take her at her word? Insist she change her email signature. Make a general announcement to the company. Correct everyone who “misgenders” leaf. Change her info on the company website. Do it all as a concerned boss and with a straight face.

    4. ladymacdeath*

      Okay, well first I want to kinda challenge you on some assumptions you’re making about trans/non-binary people; mainly, that even if Jane is messing with Kasey, trans/NB people can still present as feminine, not change their name, and not correct people on their pronouns. This happens all the time.

      That being said, regarding how to handle Jane… take Jane at leafs word and essentially call leafs bluff. Earnestly use the pronouns Jane has given you. Leaf may drop it. It’s going to get old.

      1. Web Crawler*

        I want to second everything in your first paragraph. Trans/NB people can still present as feminine, not change their name, and not correct people on their pronouns. Trans/NB people can also be transphobic (unfortunately).

      2. Sylvan*

        Yeah, that’s all true. I call myself a woman 99% of the time and accept she/her because it’s just not worth the trouble.

        That said… “Leaf may drop it.” Just wait until autumn?

      3. TWW*

        I agree with everything you said, but I’m not convinced that Jane is bluffing.

        Is it possible Jane is struggling with leafs identity? It wouldn’t be the first time an LGBT person has acted transphobic while coming to terms with who they are (not that that’s an excuse). It also wouldn’t be the first time a trans/NB person has experimented with unique pronouns before (perhaps) settling on something more conventional like they/them.

        Yes, it’s possible Jane may get tired of being called leaf/leafs and go back to she/her (or they/them). But it’s also possible the entire office will get used to it and genuinely accept those pronouns as part of leafs identity.

        1. AE*

          This is probably getting too far into the weeds (leaves?) but is “leaf” (or whatever nonhuman organism/object Jane is identifying as) actually a gender identity, or would it be something more existentially encompassing? Like, technically, yeah, plants can have different genders, but can you gender-identify as something that doesn’t have a gender? I realize this is not germane to this particular discussion and probably way above the pay grade of a career advice board, but I’m just curious if anyone has insight or experience with this type of thing.

          1. Pascall*

            In a lot of LGBT+ circles, leaf’s pronouns would be considered “neopronouns” or “neogender” which encompasses more unique or individualistic pronouns. It has less to do with the tie to plants and more to do with the individual’s feeling of how they want to express themselves and their identity. The use of neopronouns, however, doesn’t always necessarily tie into the individual’s gender.

            Similar pronouns include things like Xe, Ze, Fae, or pronouns that resemble objects, items, or other things from the environment such as Leaf, Star, Bun, etc. Some also have roots in other languages.

            Hope that explains the use of neopronouns a bit more!

          2. Queer Earthling*

            “leaf” isn’t the gender identity but the pronoun that leaf associates with leafs identity. Neopronouns and xenopronouns are a thing, and people use them for many reasons; there are also xenogenders and noungenders, and while they may not resemble gendering the way you’re familiar, that doesn’t make them less of a gender identity.

            It isn’t out of the question that Jane is BSing, but using leafs pronouns can’t hurt and might help. (I actually googled for leaf as a pronoun and Jane didn’t invent it, so…who knows? Maybe something resonated with leaf. Maybe leaf’s taking the piss. Only time will tell.)

            2. CatWoman*

              It’s my opinion that Jane googled pronouns too, and that’s where leaf came up with it. Treat Jane’s and Kasey’s pronouns the same and, as suggested, document, document, document.

              1. Sylvan*

                Thing is, neopronouns are a pretty niche subject. Putting together her transphobia towards Kasey and her knowledge about neopronouns, I’d guess she’s gotten into more than Googling.

    5. Amber Rose*

      Call her Leaf. Even if she’s doing it to prove a point, that point ends up being “we respect people’s pronouns even if we don’t understand them and regardless of any personal feelings we have about them.”

      For the people who think she’s mocking them, tell them this. Whether that’s true or not, if you enthusiastically accept her pronouns the way you want other pronouns accepted, then you have created the environment of acceptance you want. What has she achieved except helping to prove your point that acceptance is possible for everyone regardless of anything else?

      1. Littorally*

        “We respect people’s pronouns even if we don’t understand them and regardless of any personal feelings we have about them” — EXACTLY. Very well said.

    6. Burnout Phoenix*

      I’d take her at her word on this and use the pronouns. If she’s doing it to make a point, let her point be that your org will respect people’s stated genders.

      (I personally think she’s doing it to make a point, and she thinks her point is “it’s ridiculous to use pronouns other than she/her or he/him.” But fighting her on this is not going to result in anything good.)

      Continue to speak with her and address any new instances of unacceptable behavior towards trans/nonbinary colleagues as they come up.

      1. Burnout Phoenix*

        And I just realized I didn’t use the leaf pronouns myself above! I set a poor example of how to do it, because I don’t believe Jane. And if I were in your place, I would absolutely have to work with myself on using leaf pronouns regardless of what I believe about Jane’s motivations.

        1. High School Teacher*

          I don’t beleaf Jane either, but in my professional capacity as a high school teacher I have had similar issues with students/colleagues and I agree with everyone who’s saying take leaf at leaf’s word and earnestly treat Jane as if leaf’s completely serious.

          It’s possible that Jane is being an ashole, but taking leaf at leaf’s word deprives leaf of oxygen.

          And it’s also possible that part of Jane’s strong reaction to Kasey’s transition was disbelief that someone *could do that,* which led Jane to question leaf’s own gender and come to terms with it. Yes, that’s vanishingly unlikely… But if it’s true, mishandling Jane’s gender is crummy.

          1. Littorally*

            Last paragraph is a great point.

            Like, I agree the most likely explanation here is that Jane is trying to be nasty. But you lose nothing by treating leaf like leaf’s being genuine. If leaf doesn’t mean it, then time will tell. But if leaf does, then you don’t have the pall of having been the one to draw a line of what gender identities your job will or won’t accept as genuine.

            (also, I see that pun!)

    7. should i apply?*

      Use the pronouns, in fact use them in front of everyone, including outside your team and state that Jane has said that this is Jane’s preferred pronoun.
      If she is really doing it to make a point, then by using the pronouns you will be making the point that you are taking her at face value, the same courtesy that you hopefully apply to any of your other co-workers.
      I don’t see the downside of using her stated pronouns even if she doesn’t really believe it. Unless there is something weird in the pronoun that is insulting to other people?

      2. learnedthehardway*

        I feel like there is a need for more pronouns than just “leaf”. I mean, there needs to be a first person, second person and third person pronoun, with plural versions, as well as subjective and objective pronouns (equivalent to she/he and her/him), not to mention possessive pronouns (his/hers/theirs).

        Perhaps set Jane an assignment to come back with all the correct pronouns, so that people can address leaf in a way that respects leaf’s gender by being grammatically correct.

        1. linger*

          If leaf wants to use a special differentiated 1st-person pronoun, that’s up to leaf (moreover, it only affects leaf’s own usage). But 2nd person should be left alone. English 2nd-person pronouns don’t encode any feature of personal identity at all, only the addressee role, so insisting on a differentiated 2nd-person form imposes a grammatical change on everyone else for no reason related to identity. If leaf actually were to insist on that, it would pretty much prove that leaf is acting in bad faith.
          By contrast, in other languages with number variation in 2nd person, sometimes also marking solidarity or status differences, there may be more of a live issue. So … are there any other languages in which OP’s company conducts business in which a fitting translation might be needed?

    8. Noncompliance Officer*

      This is pretty obvious transphobia. There is a difference between switching your gender and pretending to be a vampire and insisting everyone call you the Dark Count Nosferatu, or that you are actually a dog, or whatever. This goes back to the, “If men can marry men, then I will marry my dog!” kind of arguments people made, god, only like 15 years ago. Homosexuality and bestiality are not comparable, just as being transgender and being a tree(?) are not.

      I would say to Jane, “Gender identity is a protected class under the law. You must respect your coworker’s gender identity.” (This is true as of the SCOTUS Bostock decision in June 2020) “Being a leaf-person is not a protected class. I am insisting that you do not bring this up at work anymore. It is not professional and will not be tolerated, as it seems you are doing this to mock or undermine your coworkers.”

      1. Full acceptance*

        Naturally, leafs request ought to be observed when providing future employment references. Leaf might not have thought of it and might need it pointed out to leaf.

        1. Beth Jacobs*

          The consensus here is that we should treat Jane’s request as genuine.
          If you have a genuinely trans employee who uses they/them pronouns at work, but asks for she/her pronouns in references to protect themselves against discrimination, you should respect their request. So I don’t think threatening to treat Jane differently is actually conducive to demonstrating your workplace is trans-friendly.

      2. Littorally*

        The thing is that there are some people who are doing this with gender, and in a way that isn’t meant to be parodical. It’s mostly kids online exploring the boundaries of what gender identity means, but it isn’t like this is a transphobic meme like the attack helicopter “joke.”

      3. Malarkey01*

        Yes! Yes! Yes! I know we are having a laugh thinking up ways to teach Jane a lesson, but what she is doing is transphobic and wrong.

        You wrote she’s threatening to report you to HR, BUT this is exactly who you should be calling right now. You have an employee being openly hostile to a trans member of your staff. This is the exact thing you need HR’s help with. HR will provide guidance on your company’s approach and position much better than the commentariat (even though we are awesome). Your trans employee also may be in the process of reaching out to HR as well. This is most likely going to end in HR no matter what you do, so proactively reach out to them and your boss now. If HR and management prove unhelpful by all means reach back out for advise, but start there.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Yes, 100% HR needs to be in the loop on this; it’s not something a manager should be deciding how to handle on their own without HR being aware it’s happening.

      4. Tired of Covid-and People*

        I agree, leaf person is ridiculing trans people and should be shut down. I’m surprised at all the comments to go along with this nonsense.

    9. Thorny*

      That’s very frustrating, I feel for you. Even if it wasn’t in bad faith (which I trust your reading that Jane is not being honest about this), it can be pretty hard to incorporate neopronouns into your lexicon. I had a friend back in high school who started going by Fire/Fireself and it was SO HARD to remember to use those in casual conversation (and we were pretty sure this was in good faith so we didn’t want to misgender!) It can be hard to remember to use pronouns that are less common than the person’s actual name… My advice to you if you don’t want to actively call Jane on this bs, would be to just say “Jane” in place of any pronoun whenever you can. (ie. “Jane is going to work on Jane’s project, we can expect to hear back from Jane in a few days”). It will be easier on you than trying to incorporate “Leaf” as a pronoun when it really doesn’t make sense to your ears.

    10. Nell*

      I can’t comment on the managerial aspect, but as someone involved in the LGBTQ+ community I want to note that presenting as female or not coming out to certain people, especially those the person sees less and doesn’t know as well, doesn’t make a gender identity less valid. The question that comes to my mind is what type of gender identity and pronouns Jane uses, as the specifics matter in this case. If it’s “I always thought Jane was female, but Jane now insists on only being referred to with the pronouns zhe/zhir and Jane was very forgetful (and maybe negligent) when recognizing another coworker’s gender identity,” it’s one thing. If it’s “Jane made this gender identity up after repeatedly misgendering their coworker,” it’s another.

      I would also go back to your reports who said that Jane is transphobic. Trans isn’t the same as nonbinary, so I would ask them about it. Are there more instances or comments Jane has made that you weren’t aware of?

      1. Neko*

        I didn’t include all details because my post was getting long, but Jane has shown transphobia in other ways and to other employees in the past. I like the suggestions to take the Leaf identity at face value and use them regardless, I think it will show Jane that whatever point Leaf was trying to make didn’t work, and will tire of this. Jane has openly made disparaging comments about trans people in the media, etc. Kasey is also not the first person Jane has misgendered, from what I’ve heard, but they do both work more closely together so it was more obvious hence the complaints.

        1. Homo neanderthalensis*

          Ok so you have a bigot problem and while I think there’s a very good chance following the “mass leaf acceptance spam” will solve some of your problem- Jane needs to go. If she has a history of misgendering and transphobic comments that is not an environment I as an NB would feel safe working in, and depending on how bad leaf got in her treatment of multiple (!) trans employees, leaf not getting terminated could open up your company to a lawsuit.

          1. HigherEdAdminista*

            This. I also do agree with Noncompliance Officer above. I understand where everyone is coming from with honoring this change of identity, but given that she has a history of transphobic behavior and misgendering people, I think she is definitely doing this to be mocking and also to make a case for herself in case she is on the path to getting fired for her behavior.

            Do you have or could you contact an attorney who is LGBTQA allied to figure out how to navigate this situation?

            1. Littorally*

              No one’s disagreeing that leaf’s almost certainly doing it to be mocking. The point is that once you start going down the path of deciding whose gender identity is legitimate and whose isn’t, you’re heading in a very directly transphobic direction.

              1. Tired of Covid-and People*

                But this isn’t a gender identity issue. The slippery slope is a logical fallacy.

                1. SnappinTerrapin*

                  If you read “slippery slope” to mean every person approaching a slope will fall down that is indeed a logical fallacy.

                  If you insist that there is no more risk in approaching a slope than in walking on familiar level ground, that is an equally illogical position to take.

                  When treading on unfamiliar terrain, it is always prudent and logical to watch one’s step.

          2. Nell*

            Absolutely this. HigherEdAdminista’s suggestion about hiring an LBTQIA ally lawyer to address the specific issues that crop up is also a great idea. Addressing individual instances of a problem may make the latest issue stop, but in the end keeping Jane on will negate all your other efforts on being LBTQIA friendly in your department, at the very least to your reports if not more of the company.

        2. Sleeping Late Every Day*

          My suggestion is to use the leaf and leaf’s and leafself as requested, but do it as matter-of-factly as possible. Don’t emphasize the words, don’t even explain. If you hear someone else saying she/her/etc., just say “Oh, that should be leaf/leaf’s/leafself” in a very low-key way and immediately resume whatever the conversation was, maybe with “As I was saying…” Comply with what Jane wants but not in a way that gives Jane ANY attention. There’s an extremely good chance that Jane wants attention and is trying to make a nasty point. Don’t give Jane the satisfaction of making this a Big Deal.

    11. Sylvan*

      Honestly, I think Jane might be very deep into some online community with an axe to grind about trans people, or maybe nonbinary trans people in specific. There are groups like that. She’s using neopronouns to make a point (in her mind) about her problem with they/them pronouns. Go to HR before she does and describe what she’s been doing and her previous transphobic behavior.

      1. Knit-T*

        I don’t know anything about the existence of such groups, but I’d be hesitant to follow the “leaf her pronouns” advice. It feels like she is trying to make some sort of mocking point and I’d really not want to feed that. I’d definitely want my organization through HR to decide how this will be dealt with.

    12. Littorally*

      Treat Jane in good faith.

      If leaf is doing it to mock Kasey, then leaf mockery isn’t going to get very far when people accept leaf request on face value and act normally about it.

      As to your “other reasons” you’re skeptical of Jane — these aren’t good reasons. They’re pretty normal for a lot of trans people, actually.
      – Presenting quite feminine — nonbinary people, which is the umbrella leaf ‘s falling under, can be any kind of “feminine” or “masculine” they want to be. Unfortunately, there isn’t really a clear gender neutral look in current society, so you’re likely going to reflexively, at least in your mind, categorize anything leaf wears as either masculine or feminine.
      – Not changing leafs name — this is a massive pain in the butt, and plenty of nonbinary people don’t.
      – Not correcting people outside the department — Hell, I’m full blown trans and I have never corrected people at work. Whatever they call me, they call me, and I don’t want to kick up a fuss about it, especially with people I don’t work with on a daily basis. It’s 100% understandable that someone would want their immediate team, whom they work with every day, to gender them correctly but not want to waste the effort with more occasional contacts. Doubly true with clients.
      – Not accepting they/them – plenty of people don’t. Do you?

      Maybe this is mockery. Maybe it’s about trying to create material for a lawsuit or HR report. Maybe it’s just a manifestation of “I am uncomfortable when we are not about me.”

      Fundamentally, this is one of those places where you are going to be best served by not worrying about motivations and just acting on the request made. You would do this without hesitation if you felt Jane was making a genuine request — so call the bluff. Treat leafs request as genuine.

      If nothing else — think of it this way. Compared with Jane’s request, Kasey using they/them pronouns will be very unremarkable.

    13. NerdyPrettyThings*

      Use the pronouns, and insist on everyone using them, the same way you did for the first employee. This will make your other employees feel comfortable that their gender identities will be respected even if they are unusual, which can only help make your workplace more inclusive. Forgive me for being gleeful about this part, but using the pronouns will likely have the added benefit of slowly enraging Jane, who, if leaf’s really transphobic, will find it very wearing to lose leaf’s female identity at leaf’s own request. It may even lead Jane to an epiphany of realization about how it feels to be misgendered.

      I also like Homo neanderthalensis’s suggestion to loop Kasey in.

      1. Homo neanderthalensis*

        Well speaking as a NB I would have a pretty negative reaction to leafs nonsense after a month of misgendering like, oh what fresh bullshit is this! But if my boss took me aside and explained the plan I’d not only feel like my boss respected me enough to be perceptive that this is bad faith but also I’d probably also find the over the top correcting for pronouns outside of the department hilarious because of how twitchy it would make Jane. AND it would have the added bonus of highlighting how serious my boss took my pronouns.

        1. Old Admin*

          “But if my boss took me aside and explained the plan I’d not only feel like my boss respected me enough to be perceptive that this is bad faith but also I’d probably also find the over the top correcting for pronouns outside of the department hilarious because of how twitchy it would make Jane. AND it would have the added bonus of highlighting how serious my boss took my pronouns.”

          *slow clap*
          Very well said. OP has the possibility of turning this mess into a win-win situation:
          – Either Jane truly is leafgender, then OP did the right thing AND defused any issues with Kasey, or
          – Jane’s BS is called with Kasey fully informed.

          I really like this.

    14. PolarVortex*

      Treat it cheerfully and relentlessly like you would anyone else who changes their pronouns. Many LGBT people are LGBT-phobic before we come out. It’s a weird, vicious self hate thing. It could be the case with Jane here. If she is for some awful reason lying, she’s going to regret that long term as everyone will know to call Jane leaf/leafs and leaf’ll have to decide if leafself wants to backtrack to feminine pronouns which leaf’ll assume that everyone will realize leaf is transphobic with that backtrack because Jane thinks that leafself. (Which again you’ll treat the transition to feminine cheerfully and relentlessly like you do anyone else who changes pronouns. Identity can be fluid!)

      That being said: If others of you are coming to you saying Jane in transphobic, you need to ask them what they saw/heard. If it’s about the leaf thing, you cheerfully and relentlessly update them that “No, Jane has every right to be leaf’s trueself here at X Company, please support leaf in leafs transition”. And then assure them if they see/hear anything transphobic by anyone to please continue to share with you. If it’s not about the leaf thing, follow up on that immediately.

    15. Twisted Lion*

      Im just here to add that maybe you should loop HR into her transphobia and the current situation.

          1. Sylvan*

            You’re right, sorry. I was thinking of avoiding outing Kasey to the broader company if Kasey doesn’t want that to happen.

            1. Artemesia*

              If someone is publicly requesting use of new pronouns there is no ‘outing’ issue. They have chosen to out themselves. You can’t somehow be using the pronouns in your department but have it be a secret to the larger organization (doesn’t mean an ‘announcement’ has to be made — but the pronouns should occur in their normal public records)

    16. The teapots are on fire*

      Take it at face value, use the Leaf pronouns, and make sure everyone else does. Treat other behavior problems as they come up because those are the real issue. If Jane gets a secret joy from Leafs ability to make others use made-up pronouns, as long as Leaf keeps it to Leafself, let it be. If Leaf displays documentable anti-trans behavior, fall on it like a ton of bricks.

    17. TWW*

      Just go with it? What’s the harm in calling Jane leaf/leafs?

      A few other comments:

      Having a “no tolerance” policy on misgendering is unrealistic. People imperfect. I have two friends who I originally knew as she/her, but have since transitioned to they/them. People, including myself, sometimes accidentally call them she/her. If you hear someone make a mistake, you can correct them and more on.

      You are being transphobic in expressing skepticism of Jane’s gender because leaf hasn’t changed leafs name or appearance. What, in your opinion, are nonbinary people supposed be named? What are they supposed to look like?

      Jane choosing to correct coworkers but not clients when they use the wrong pronouns is also not a reason to be skeptical.

      1. Momma Bear*

        It’s often easy to figure out when it’s malicious misgendering or not. I agree to correct them and base your opinion on how they respond. Someone who is being deliberate will behave very differently than someone who made a mistake.

    18. HR Exec Popping In*

      Use Jane’s pronouns and assume Jane is acting in good faith. If you question Jane, you are validating the believe that it is ok to question someone’s pronouns. Also, you should talk to HR and explain the situation and that you are encouraging everyone to use Jane’s new pronouns. Also let them know you have had difficulty with Jane not using Kasey’s pronouns correctly. They might be able to give you some good advice and also just in case Jane continues to misuse Kasey’s pronouns or decides make some sort of complaint.

    19. HerdingCatsWouldBeEasier*

      Personally I think this would make a great lever for dealing with Jane’s continued misgendering of Kasey. Use leaf’s new pronouns sincerely, solicit leaf’s preferences in dealing with others, and in all ways treat this as a very serious issue for leaf. If leaf continues to misgender Kasey, have a heart to heart about how you know leaf would be very upset to be misgendered and that leaf needs to extend to leaf’s coworkers the courtesy leaf expects for leafself. Make sure you are documenting every complaint leaf makes going forward about honoring pronouns- that is what is going to provide you with solid evidence that Jane is acting in bad faith. Good luck!

    20. WellRed*

      This reminds me if the letter where someone came dressed as her coworker and said she wasn’t dressed as coworker. But she was being cruel and I think coworker quit. Jane is a bitch.

      1. Tired of Covid-and People*

        Yeas, a mocking one at that. Why do these kinds of people always get their way?

    21. Save the Hellbender*

      This is an incredible and complicated (and awful for Kasey) story and I hope Alison weighs in, but while I like a lot of the suggestions below, if I were you I would just let HR make the decisions here, otherwise this could get .. thorny.

    22. Maggie*

      I would go directly to HR immediately and explain the whole situation! I probably would have went to HR as soon as she raised the “leaf” thing. Let HR handle that!

    23. nice is different than good*

      I don’t have any advice that’s different from what other’s have said, but….wow. That’s a whole new level of transphobic commitment.

  9. GigglyPuff*

    How do you actually phrase an email when contacting an old department head about a job opening at their new department?

    There’s a job opening in another govt dept that is parallel to the work I do now and is a step up into a supervisor role. I can’t answer all the questions “yes” on the application, only about half. Like I haven’t supervised full time employees (only a couple interns), or written/been leads on grant work, only done the work for grants. But still going to try!

    But the department head of this new job used to be the department head of my current job. It’s been about 4 years since we’ve spoken in any real way. They were only my dept head for about 1.5 years but I don’t think they had any issues with me.

    So how do I actually phrase an email to them letting them know I’ve applied to the job they are supervising and most likely on the interview panel for? I mostly just want a chance to be reviewed beyond the basic HR screening, and I’m nervous since I can’t answer “yes” to all the questions I’ll be screened out by HR. (Though hoping already being a govt employee in the same state agency will help.)

    1. Hillary*

      Do you have a close enough relationship to call them? This might work better as a conversation.

      1. GigglyPuff*

        I’d say no. I rarely talked to them outside meetings when they were my dept head. Plus I’m totally an overexplainer, so I can see a phone conversation getting awkward if I get nervous. Also I have no idea what their in-office schedule looks like right now.

        Mostly I’m just looking for some help with some sentences without overexplaining. Something like “I hope everything is going well with you. I wanted to let you know I applied for X position……” but I have no idea what to say after that.

        1. Hillary*

          Gotcha. How does this sound?

          Hi boss. I hope everything is going well with you. I wanted to let you know I applied for X position. I don’t meet all the qualifications, but I’m excited about the opportunity to challenge myself and work with you again. I think my experience supervising interns and …. will translate well to the role.

          if you want, you can close by asking if they have time to talk or if they’ll put in a good word. Otherwise you can just close with a thanks!

          1. kt*

            I might write,

            Hi (boss),

            Hope all is going well with you. I saw X position on your website and applied; it would be great to work with you again and I’m excited about (this and that). The application requires answer re: a few qualifications like “managing three people” and I wasn’t able to check that box because to this point I have managed interns rather than permanent employees. If you don’t think that’s disqualifying, I’d love to be considered for the position — let me know if you have any advice on this. (then closing, thanks)

    2. All Het Up About It*

      My one caution, and maybe it’s just me, is be careful about saying “I don’t meet all the requirements.” I’m not exactly sure about the application checklist, but I would look at it the things mentioned here as “managerial experience” and “grant experience” in general. And in my email to the boss I would highlight what my accomplishments in those areas are without drawing attention to the fact that they are not 100% what was listed in the job description/checklist. Because they know that.

      This could just be because I have learned so much about how women don’t apply for jobs because they don’t meet all the qualifications and so I have internalized not selling myself short, that I’m seeing this in your language. (Not assuming your gender, just the attitude.) I’m just suggesting a shift in your language from, I’m not perfect, but please still consider me, to: These are the skills I bring and how I think they fit what you are looking for or I’ve worked to build these skills and I’m ready and excited for a role where I really get to put them to use.

      Good luck!!

      1. KeinName*

        I agree! You shouln’t lead with what you do not have, but with what you bring to the table and your motivation for applying.

  10. Collie*

    I’ll almost definitely have to take a significant pay cut (even adjusting for COL) to make a lateral move out of my current employer. There are reasons I want out but I can stand waiting a bit. But, eventually, I’ll have to take a cut. I can’t and don’t want to stay here forever. I’m not interested in higher level positions at this point in my career.

    Negotiating, benefits, etc. are either not options or things I’ve already considered. I’m not interested in switching fields. It solely comes down to managing my frustration around how salaries are structured in my field (libraries).

    Any advice on reconciling myself to a cut?

    1. should i apply?*

      Is your problem the implied lack of recognition from the pay cut or budget? If is lack of recognition, maybe look at other careers that you respect, but that you know are paid less than you are? Unfortunately valued work doesn’t necessarily equal pay.

      If it is budget, to mentally prepare for it could you act like you have already taken the cut? For example if you know your budget is going down by 10%, put that money in a separate bucket and make sure that you are okay with living on the new amount.

    2. Combinatorialist*

      I haven’t done this, so this advice is somewhat theoretical, but I would start living on what you think the new salary would be now. Put the excess money in some sort of long term goal. That way you can see just how different your standard of living, you have a period of adjustment where you can use the money if you need to, you can bank up a larger emergency fund, and decide accordingly.

    3. Knit-T*

      Are you planning to leave your current system or are you asking for a demotion in your current system? I think if you are leaving a system for a new experience, you can tell yourself that you are gaining a new experience. You are going to stretch and grow and challenge yourself by learning new things, and that’s very good for you mentally. It may open up new opportunities that you can’t even predict yet!

      If you are planning to stay in your current system…that’s harder. I’m saying that as someone who is in libraries at the manager level. I personally would not be able to step down in my current system. We aren’t structured well for it for one reason, but also because I think my co-workers wouldn’t let me not be in charge, honestly. But, if in some world that did/would happen, I would relish each and every time I got to say, “I don’t know. Let me get the person in charge.” I would just revel in the joy of that…

    4. All Het Up About It*

      Physical reconciliation: Can you try living on the salary that you will most likely make when you take a cut? I’d recommend setting up a second direct deposit so part of your pay check goes directly into a savings account. Then you live on what comes into your checking. And of course if you have to, you can dip into your savings, but you try not to. You might find that it’s easier to do than you expected and therefore, it will help you emotionally accept the cut. Or it will help you decide what is going to take priority when you do.

      Additional emotional reconciliation: Hardcore pros and cons list. Why do you want to leave your job? Write down every single negative thing period. There might be a few other pros other than salary as well. Then think of all the pros, or possible pros a new job is going to get you and write those down. Start thinking about what you are gaining with this move and focus on the why you want to make it to begin with.

      Also, I’ve found that as “the reasons” you have become larger and you feel like you are no longer fine waiting to move on, it’s often easier to reconcile yourself to less pay, etc. Because by then all those cons have gotten so big and weighty it’s obvious that salary does not balance them out any longer. Also, know that by the end of “awhile” you could change your mind about taking on bigger roles, or discover a different industry that you want to pivot to. Don’t be afraid of working on this reconciliation, but also the one thing I’ve learned in my career is don’t look too far down the road either, as there are likely unseen obstacles or new paths and opportunities between where you are now and where you think you will be.

    5. Green Goose*

      I can really relate to this question. I’m paid well in an industry that pays poorly. I know that if I were to move to another organization, I’d most likely need to increase my duties while also taking a pay cut. So, when that time comes I will look at the things that could make my life better. For me personally, I hate being stuck in traffic so when I make my move I will choose a company that is closer to my home. I want a 20-minute commute tops for a salary cut. It’ll increase my overall daily contentedness. I will also prioritize a company that has strong work-life balance culture, and one that does not expect people to stay after 5pm.

      It’ll be hard to take the pay cut, but if you can use it as an opportunity to make your life better in other ways hopefully the financial dent won’t hurt as much.

    6. HR Exec Popping In*

      Instead of thinking it as a pay cut, reframe it it as what you will be getting that you don’t get now. Today you are paid X for your job – all the good and bad parts. Tomorrow you will make W for the new job and hopefully there are things you think will be better with this new job. For example, more flexibility, shorter commute, more interesting work, etc. Those have a value to you. You need to decide if that value off sets the change in salary.

    7. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think to take a salary cut and be comfortable with it, you have to feel that the trade off is worth it. What would make it worth it for you? And only you can answer that question.

      I took a pay cut for my current position based on cost of living. I left a very low cost of living state (one of the lowest) and moved to a high cost of living state. However, I got out of a job that bored me senseless, that was a dead-end, and I got closer to my family. For me, the trade off was worth it, even though I am making less money now. Only you can answer if those trade offs are worth it to you.

    8. JRR*

      Pay cuts aren’t the end of the world. When I left my previous job due to burnout, my salary was $70k, I started my current job at $35k. After 3 years, it’s up to $48k. At age 45, that makes me comfortable, but far from wealthy.

      I sometimes feel a little regretful when I think what my lifestyle (and retirement prospects) would be had I stayed in the old job, but the reality is I have plenty.

      It turns out that my 900 sq ft apartment in a no-so-great neighborhood is more comfortable (and less work) than my old 1500 sq ft suburban house. And my cheap hobbies of today (playing/writing music) is more fulfilling that my expensive former hobbies (travel, cycling, woodworking, etc.)

      I’m lucky to have a variety of friends who are both poorer and richer than me, so I feel no pressure to keep up with the Joneses. The person I’m dating gets by on cash assistance and SNAP befits, so our dates tend to be super cheap–walk on a local trail, then home to play music and cook pasta. Many of the younger people on the local music scene who I hang out with are in a similar boat. On the other hand, I have other friends who are wealthy and generous so I have plenty of opportunities to go their big houses and experience a little luxury without having to spend much money.

    9. Collie*

      I appreciate everyone’s comments. They’ve really helped reframe how I think about it, and I think got me started on being more comfortable with a potential change.

      One of the more difficult parts for me is that you can’t know for sure that a new job will be better than an old one. Too bad there isn’t some sort of reverse probation program where your old job would take you back if the new one isn’t what you anticipated! Ha.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      I tell myself that life is all trade-offs. We give up X to have more Y.

      You are probably can think of a few times where you gave up something to have something else.

      Each fork in the road we meet offers us a new chapter in life. A new chapter usually has something to offer that the previous chapters did not. My suggestion is once you are settled in your new gig, look around. What opportunities do you see that you can take advantage of? What have you been wanting to do? This can be anything you can think of- hobbies, volunteer work, taking free online classes, eh, maybe you’d really like a good night’s sleep for a change that, too, is a starting point.

  11. Carrots*

    Any advice for dealing with coworkers that treat you like an outsider? I’m the youngest female in my department, but they treat me like I’m an intern or something. They also talk down to me like I’m stupid, but I have the most degrees out of anyone in the department. (I’m not trying to sound smug. I don’t talk about my education, but my boss will bring it up to people.)

    Is there anything to do about this?

    1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

      Following. I was treated like everyone’s child in a former company though I was in my mid-20s. Never figured how to change that image.

      1. Web Crawler*

        I did figure out how to change that image, but my solution is not replicable. Basically, I went 95% remote before covid and my new coworkers only know me by my name and voice (and both of those read male now, but when I started, most people gendered me female).

        Before my gender transition, my best strategy was to get respect from people one at a time, by openly knowing my stuff. It sometimes worked.

        1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

          I hope remote work helps too. Have you considered writing about that perspective of your professional experience? It’s super interesting as you’ve been able to view professional treatment from different angles and I think your insights could benefit others who strive to make the workplace more equitable.

          And, I’ve heard of women creating email addresses for imaginary male assistants just so they can get things done with less hassle, and eventually gain enough confidence to handle things directly. But for some people, it doesn’t matter how direct, or professional, they’re determined to marginalize others to make themselves feel important.

    2. cat lady*

      I suggest a two-pronged approach. 1) if they ask you to do anything that would be an intern’s job (fetch them coffee, make copies for them, etc.), politely say “My hands are full with X project, but perhaps [intern] could help!” 2) continue to do really good work, and eventually your reputation for competence/excellence will overtake your youth in your coworkers’ perception of you.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        . . . they shouldn’t be asking interns to do that stuff for them, either. Interns are there to learn about the business/discipline, not do drudge work and wait on people.

    3. should i apply?*

      Can you politely call them on their bullshit? Sometime people make assumptions about your age or experience and don’t realize they are wildly off base. Not so much bragging about your education, but dropping basic information like it isn’t a big deal. Statement like, oh yes I learned that in my last job, or I studied that when getting my XXX degree.
      Also, how do they treat you like an intern? If you are the newest employee you might be getting the crap jobs that no one wants, but there also is lots of advice on this site about how to push back and set boundaries. Also you might just have crappy co-workers

    4. Artemesia*

      I was once upon a time the new young thing — only ‘girl’ and by far the youngest. Only thing I can suggest is having a strong sense of appropriate role and resist being tasked with anything that is assistant like or intern like if those are not part of your role. Never fax or copy anything for anyone else (even if a middle aged man might do it from time to time) ‘I am crushing on a deadline and can’t drop what I am doing.’ Never take notes at a meeting if you can possibly avoid it: ‘my handwriting is terrible, not something I am good at’. or ‘I will need to be there late because I have an important call at 10, so it is best to have someone else do it.’ Go above and beyond on tasks that are professional and make you shine and avoid entirely routine tasks that are assistant to someone else. If someone dumps something on you — a mailing, or filing or looking up information about clients, just don’t do it and when challenged ‘I might be able to do that later this week but I have some priority things to get done’. If you can avoid it complete do that. e.g. drop it back on the desk of the guy who tried to fob it on you with ‘I can’t get to this, I am stacked up’ or ‘I am prepping for a meeting with a client.’

      Make tasking you with ‘intern jobs’ as difficult and unrewarding as possible. And don’t ‘recognize’ that it is your job because you are the ‘girl’ — ‘I am stacked up with the TPS reports but Fergus is good at that and might have time.’ Make getting you to do it a PITA so they stop fobbing their stuff off on you.

      1. Hillary*

        Adding to this – don’t bring baked goods and never clean anything that isn’t yours. Don’t do anything your bro-iest dudebro from college would do. Don’t volunteer unless it’s a good project for your career growth.

        Mentally – try to assume positive intent (for the benefit of your mental health, not theirs). Subconsciously you remind them of their daughter/granddaughter and they may not realize they’re talking down to you. My experience was they mostly get better about it as they get to know you as a professional. I try my best to not let any of them take up space in my head.

        Also, take as much enjoyment from it as you can. There’s nothing quite like watching an older guy crumble as he’s politely chewed out by a young woman. Those are still some of the most entertaining moments of my career. You can even leverage this in negotiations – they cave fast when faced with disappointment.

        2. Artemesia*

          Although I came of age and entered the job market in an entirely sexist period when it was still legal to discriminate and then even when not, was common to do so, I had fairly little problem with this because of the way I carried myself and was purposefully oblivious to those expectations. Feigned ignorance of what someone is trying to do to put you in your place works pretty well in many circumstances and then being very mindful of volunteering for things that advance your career — building curriculum, the new marketing campaign, new product design, project management and not the diversity committee, the party committee or planning the retreat. At some point you become a woman professional whom the guys wouldn’t think of treating like an assistant.

    5. PolarVortex*

      Two options for the intern crap just because you’re young/female:

      Cheerful Boundaries: That means when they ask you to do intern style work, you cheerfully tell them you’re busy with X project or Y important thing and that admin/intern/etc can do that or you’re unable to. It’s the less confrontational way of getting around these tasks.

      RBF Boundaries: You just tell them “No.” full stop. “No, I can’t.” “I’m unable to.” “Is there a reason you’re unable to print that yourself? I can teach you how to use the printer if you’re unfamiliar with the technology” (The latter is useful because it’ll make them look like they’re too dumb and they’ll self correct without realizing it.)

      A few other tips:
      -Never apologize for saying no to the intern work. Don’t say “Sorry, I can’t I have X” because it makes it sound like you’d do it if you didn’t have X and you won’t have X on your plate forever but next time you will.
      -Never do the typical shunted to females tasks in the office jobs – make coffee, tidy the breakroom, etc beyond basic expectations. (Make the coffee if you use the last of it, clean up your own messes.) You’re going to have to hold off on that until they treat you like a peer.
      -Gods I hate saying this because I think one should be able to be their full selves at work but: you could choose to police what you wear/talk about interests/etc to remove anything that makes you sound young. Talk about your love of Fleetwood Mac but not BTS. Your weekend remodeling your basement not x hobby they’d stereotype as young/female.

      I admit I’m relentlessly blunt, and I am biologically female with an eternal baby face, and prior to really feeling comfortable being transmasculine, I had no problem starting my careers doing the cheerful refusal and later shifting to the RBF refusal, occasionally with one raised eyebrow going “why did you ask me to do that”.

      As for the outsider situation, look for other people on the fringe, they’ll be the easiest people to get into regular casual conversations with and the people who likely give less of a crap about the social clicquing going on.

    6. Ali*

      I do not have any good advice on this, except to call out really egregious statements as they come (something I find really hard.) But I will be keeping my eye on this thread, and I want you to know it’s not just you! I was so excited to get my first full-time academic job several years ago, and it was so dispiriting for the chair to treat me just like a TA.

    7. Spearmint*

      Is your boss part of the problem here? If not, I’d try to talk to them about what you’re experiencing and ask for their support in shifting the dynamic. A good boss wouldn’t want you to be treated that way or being pressured to do intern-type tasks.

    8. AnotherLibrarian*

      There’s always a certain amount of learning curve/settling in to a new job. So, make sure you are not just dealing with some of that. I know that I used to think people were talking down to me when I was new in my field, but really they were just trying to give me heads up about things that they didn’t know if I knew. There were a few jerks in the group, but mostly people were assuming I didn’t know things, because I was new. Beyond that, I recommend, as others have suggested, be sure not to do things that tend to be identified as intern tasks. Don’t copy for others. Don’t make coffee. Try to avoid taking notes in meetings.

      The other thing I would suggest, and this was something I had to do in my early career, is dress older. I looked like I was 15 until I was in my 30s, so I dressed super formally. I found that if I was wearing a blazer, people tended to treat me like I was a grown-up.

    9. Old Admin*

      I’d like to add my reaction (which I learned on AAM) to gendered jokes – be relentlessly confused, and put the awkwardness back on the “joker”.
      A personal example:
      I was in the company’s newly remodeled kitchen heating some food in the microwave, getting a dish etc. when an older coworker walked, looked at me in an amused way and went: “Haha! Look at you! You had better work hard at keeping that kitchen clean!!” (This was an IT company, and I was a technician.)

      Rage instantly boiled up behind my eyballs – but I had read AAM, and I controlled myself.

      My answer: “Now why would you say that?”
      He: *fumble* “Why… because the kitchen… and you…you know…. clean!”
      Me, very earnestly: “But I still don’t understand, is there a reason why you would say that to *me* of all people?!?”
      He, very uncomfortably: “Butbut… you know…”
      Me, very intently:”But you need to help me understand why you said that!!”
      (insert a few more repetitions with my being ever more earnest in my confusion.)

      In the end, he fled from the kitchen, and I finished my lunch quietly laughing.
      He never cracked another gendered joke at me again, although he did glare a bit when we met. That soon went away, too. :-D

      5. Artemesia*

        Feigned ignorance in action. Perfect. Also useful in not picking up on a hint that you do assistant things.

    10. I've been doing this awhile*

      My approach to this has always been to be highly matter-of-fact and polite.

      “Hey Jane, go get me a cup of coffee, willya?”
      “No thanks” with a pleasant smile.

      “So, the thing about the TPS report you invented and taught the rest of us to use is…”
      “Oh Derek, did you forget I invented that report?!” with the same laugh and “ah, ya big goof” tone you’d use to gently give a friend a ribbing over something mildly silly they’ve done.

      “I was reading an article about 18th century shipping manifests, pretty obscure stuff, you wouldn’t get it…”
      “Well, since I did my PhD in 18th century nautical history, I probably would, so I’d love to hear what you found interesting!”

      Don’t use that fake-polite-but-obviously-mad tone or over-the-top phrasing that the internet loves to think is clever. Be genuinely polite and act as though they’re being a bit weird but you’re not too fussed over it. Your goal is not to make them feel bad for treating you badly, even though you’re justifiably mad about it. Your goal is to demonstrate that you are too calm and competent to be bothered by their nonsense, and to create an environment that will facilitate their realization, all on their own, that they’re being dickheads.

    11. Girasol*

      Anytime I’ve run into this behavior it’s been among people who divide up “us” and “them” along lines of gender, race, or age. I have seen the targets use stern responses, cheerful responses, “give them the benefit of the doubt” responses, “show them I’m a good sport” responses, and I’ve never seen any of them change the behavior. There are some good tips here on how you might respond, but consider adding a job search. If you stick around in hope that it will get better if only you do the right thing long enough, the environment can wear you down, and that can make it harder to put a confident smile on your face when you decide you really need to move on.

      1. Anonnington*

        I agree with this. OP needs a strategy other than tolerating it.

        I have had some luck with respectfully calling people out. I’ve also had luck with earning respect over time via my work and just getting to know people better.

        But, usually, people who talk to you like you’re stupid have issues. “Getting along so we can work together,” is a good goal, but these are not people you want to be friends with.

        I second the job search suggestion. And I would detach myself emotionally from that job and find a side hustle or hobby that involved more intellectual output and a friendly community.

      2. Artemesia*

        I don’t agree. You can shape the behavior toward you until you become a woman that they don’t treat that way. Worked for me. And I have watched other woman manage it. It takes a lot of self awareness and willingness to tend your boundaries. If you are a relentless people pleasure and everyone’s best girl, it will be hard, but if you do the things suggested in this thread you will often change the behavior TOWARDS YOU.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      I am not sure how helpful this is. Whenever a new person joins a group there is no real way of knowing what is in their knowledge pool. (I can’t justify their behavior because it’s not okay. But you are looking for a way to bridge this and I do have a suggestion, bear with me.)

      Tell them to ASK you, instead of assuming you are not familiar with something. If need be you can present it as, “It’d probably save a lot of time and energy, to just ask if I am familiar with X or Y, rather than explain all of X or Y to me.”

      What I like about this is that there is some underlying message reminding them to treat you like an adult. But on the surface it has the practical component of setting up how to work with each other until everyone gets used to you.

      I had a situation just recently. I have new boss, I really like her and she is very smart. She is about 15 years younger than me. But I don’t know her that well yet. I was working on a spreadsheet for a person we both work with. I did not know if I would finish before I had to leave. The person reeeally wanted this spreadsheet. I simply said to my boss, “Do you do Excel?” She said she did. I said, “So if I get the numbers in you can do the totals?” Yep, sure thing.
      Asked/Answered/Done.

      Of course, for my part in this I now know she does Excel and I don’t need to ask again. And I now know a tiny bit more about what is in her knowledge pool. Eh, I guess she knows a tiny bit more about my knowledge pool also. Inch by inch we will get to know each other.

  12. LTL*

    Can volunteer or unpaid work violate a non-compete agreement? For example, if I’m doing something for free* or volunteering for a competitor.

    *I don’t want to go into the specifics, but you can think of this as consulting for free, providing services to individuals that would essentially compete with my old employer.

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      Yes, it could. The purpose behind a non-compete is that you have access to special information/training/customer lists etc and they don’t want competitors (or you) using that information against them. It doesn’t matter whether you are getting paid. In fact, not getting paid makes it look a bit more like you are sharing information or working for the competitor for the specific purpose of harming your former employer.

      That said, many noncompete agreements are not enforceable, so you may want to consult with an attorney about the enforceability of the noncompete.

    2. CTT*

      I think it depends on how the non-compete is worded, but the issue that a non-compete is getting at is helping the employer’s competitor, which can be accomplished through volunteer work.

      1. CTT*

        (And by worded, I mean “you could get out on a technicality because the non-compete uses language that limits the covered actions to paid work”)

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Depends on the text of the agreement.

      Note that a lot of non-competes are not valid. However, you can still get sued over them and spend a lot of time and money defending yourself in court, even if you win in the end.

      1. LTL*

        Given how broad this non-compete is, I suspect it is invalid. But the contract also included a note on following the laws of Deleware (the most employer-friendly state), which makes me worry a bit that they know what they’re doing.

        It also stated that if there ever was an issue, it would go through the process of a specific organization. Gosh I forgot the details, but essentially, neither side could rack up fees.

        Honestly, this was somewhere I worked part-time for less than a month before I had to leave due to life circumstances, it’s not anywhere on my LinkedIn or resume, so it’s also unlikely that they’ll ever even find out.

    4. Lucy McGillicuddy*

      It definitely could, but you should go back and look at what your agreement says.

      There’s also a giant difference between sharing proprietary information with competitors (big no) and say, helping your friends with your taxes when you used to work for H&R Block (I can’t imagine they’d ever press charges) – consider where you fall on that spectrum.

      1. LTL*

        I think the most apt comparison would be if I volunteered with an organization that provided free tax services.

        1. Anonnington*

          Can you ask your employer? My past employers have been very supportive of employees doing volunteer work in their field. They might offer guidance on how to do this work without violating the non-compete.

          I know there’s a good chance you’ve already thought of this, but I’m throwing it out there anyway.

  13. straws*

    We recently reorganized a department, resulting in a position being eliminated. We’re very small, but we put together as good a package as we could. We gave 2 weeks notice, he could interview on the clock if needed, we paid severance & earned PTO (not required in our state). We normally have a longer notice period, but he had a baby on the way, so we built in our normal parental leave to the transition/notice time so that he wasn’t still working when the baby was due. This was all spelled out, etc. I was recently informed that he’s told other employees that he was fired (not true) because we didn’t want to pay his parental leave. I’m completely shocked. The employee who told me didn’t believe a word of it but wanted to let me know. She didn’t know if he’d told anyone else. If someone comes to me, I can definitely reassure them that what he said isn’t true. But what if they don’t? Is it reasonable to put out a message about rumors circulating? And if so, how much is reasonable to share to set the story straight?

    1. Unfettered scientist*

      Question: when you say “we built in our normal parental leave to the transition time” what does that mean? Does that mean you made the timeline such that he would leave before parental leave would start? Or that you pay the full amount of parental leave but with him just not returning at the end?

      1. straws*

        We set his last day based on when he was expected to start leave, and he was free to leave sooner (with pay) if the baby was early. Normally we would have a longer working/transitioning-out time, but since we knew he’d definitely be out on a specific date, if not earlier, we wanted to make sure the final goals (handoffs, documentation, etc) were met before that date rather than making him come back. So the parental leave was assumed and built into the timeline. I’m struggling to phrase this for some reason. The end result, pay-wise, was the same as if he didn’t have the parental leave. He just worked less because he was out for the leave.

        1. Unfettered scientist*

          Does your company normally pay for parental leave? Maybe that’s what’s confusing here. The way I’m reading it, it sounds like you *did* terminate an employee earlier than usual because you wanted to avoid paying parental leave… I’m not saying there aren’t legit business reasons for wanting to plan the end before the leave, but isn’t that actually how it played out? What if the employee had not told you about the pregnancy? You would have had to pay leave and then transition out. This is perhaps another reason not to share medical information with an employer because it appears the employee was pushed out earlier than they would have liked.

          1. straws*

            We do pay for parental leave. Our normal transition period is 6 weeks (unless they find a new job before then, and they are allowed “free leave” to interview, etc). So if we hadn’t been aware of the pregnancy, he would have worked 2 weeks, out for 2 weeks leave, and back to work for 2 weeks. Our timeline for the restructure was project based, so there wasn’t a lot of flexibility to delay for a month. And again, the amount of money in the end wouldn’t have changed by the last check received. But, as the commenter below pointed out, there’s some defensiveness to wanting to set the record straight with everyone, so I’m going to let things go and reassure anyone who brings a concern to me.

            1. Unfettered scientist*

              Ah I see. For some reason I was imagining a much longer leave. That makes sense.

              1. Unfettered scientist*

                Actually read some later replies and I’m confused again. When he went on leave, were you still paying him? In your 6 week example, you ended up front loading thing so it was a 4 week transition instead of 6, but did you still pay for 6?

        2. sequined histories*

          I’m not sure if I fully understand what you’re saying here. I believe you when you say you did NOT get rid of him because you wanted to avoid paying for parental leave. However, it sounds like he lost his job right around the time he would otherwise have taken parental leave, and that you did not employ/pay him when he would have otherwise have been taking parental leave.

          Again, taking you 100% at your word—I think it’s just unrealistic to expect him NOT to believe that the timing of his departure was coincidental no matter how transparent you were about the reorganization or anything else. Most people losing their jobs right when they would otherwise been taking parental leave are going to believe that that was one reason—if not THE reason—they were let go. And, frankly, a lot of third parties would draw that conclusion as well. On a practical level, I don’t think you can really do much more to prevent that suspicion from crossing people’s minds. I understand why it would be upsetting to know people might be thinking that; on the other hand, it’s a terrible time for this guy to lose his job, so maybe just try to feel compassion for him in that regard without worrying too much about this rumor. If you are generally fair to your employees, this one rumor is not going to destroy the overall impression that you are a decent employer.

          1. straws*

            We did pay him during that time (or rather, we paid the time out, but the amount was the same as if he’d stayed).

            You’re right though, I need to trust that our staff can see beyond a single situation if he reaches out to them and if they even believe what he says. I was partially caught off guard by our discussions all being fairly positive and this feedback being so negative.

    2. I am not the Lorax*

      Let it go. Let him go. If staff have questions, answer them honestly. But, sending out a note to address rumors that may or may not have occurred could be considered defensive and bullying. Once he’s gone, staff will assume their own assumptions and you can dispel those assumptions by treating them fairly.

      1. straws*

        Good points. I think I probably am feeling a little defensive, because so much time and effort was put into considering how to balance moving the department forward and his personal situation. The change was made with a change in project focus, so the timing was not very flexible. And the very thing we were so carefully trying to balance out is being used to indicate that we were being unfair. So that’s something I need to let go on my own and not try to drag everyone else into. Thank you, this comment was very helpful for some perspective on my end!

        1. New Mom*

          I understand that you put time and effort into making it as good as possible, but it was still a terrible thing to happen to him. He is about to have a baby, which is stressful, life-changing and expensive. We had a baby recently, and the scenario you describe is a nightmare scenario for new parents. The mom also may either be receiving reduced wages or none at all on her leave, so now on top of taking care of a new baby they have a very real stress of needing to find a job and get healthcare. And now looking for a job during a pandemic when he would have otherwise be spending this time bonding with his new child.

          I’m not saying this to make it out like your company is horrible, but I just want to put into perspective how truly awful it is for someone to have this happen to them and they are not going to be grateful for being let-go in a slightly better way. I think that is unrealistic to expect of someone in his situation. It’s easy to say that the decision was not personal when you are still with the org, but to him it is personal. I really hope he finds another job soon, and hopefully, people at the org can help him find one during this difficult time.

          1. straws*

            Yes, I understand all of that. I have 2 children and my husband lost his job shortly after having the first. That doesn’t justify lying to our employees that he was fired without compensation when that wasn’t the case though? If it helps, he was well aware that the position was going to be transitioned out at some point soon and had been job searching already.

    3. TWW*

      Even if it wasn’t your intent to avoid paying for his parental leave, that was the outcome.

      Why didn’t you let him take his paid leave as scheduled and terminate him on the day he was scheduled to return?

      1. Malarkey01*

        I agree with this, you normally have a 6 week transition but that means 6 weeks of getting paid to work, you also normally have 6 weeks paid parental leave.
        He got 6 weeks pay which means you gave him the benefit of 2 weeks pay for non-work which is better than a straight fire, BUT he missed out on 4 weeks of paid parental leave where he’s paid for no work.

        So, he’s a bit right that he was fired right before getting 6 “free” weeks as part of his benefits. I think staff would have understood more if he’d gotten 10 weeks-the shorter 4 transition+normal paternity leave.
        It is pretty crappy losing a job 2 weeks before your partner had a baby (hopefully she has paid leave or they are really hurting).

        1. straws*

          I’m not sure where the 6 weeks paid parental leave came from. We have 2 weeks. I’d love if we could offer 6! But right now it’s 2.

          And yeah, separate from my “work concerns”, I do feel for him. My partner lost his job shortly after our first child was born, so I’ve been in a similar situation.

          1. Malarkey01*

            Sorry I think I was getting confused by a few different numbers thrown around by other posters too. So basically the most he would have gotten from each category is 8? (6 weeks of transition work and 2 paid parental leave?) So he got 4 work and 2 parental?

      2. straws*

        Well, we did pay for the time he would have been on leave as part of the final check. His leave wasn’t actually scheduled yet though, so we didn’t have a return date. We were assuming he would take the full time off consecutively for planning purposes, but he would have had the option to flex some of that time if he wanted.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I can speak to co-worker reactions — layoffs suck but are a fact of life.
      HOWEVER. I once saw an org chart with a blank position listed as “the new Bob”
      less than 6 months after “Bob’s” position was eliminated. That company lost all credibility with me.

    5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      The employee who told me didn’t believe a word of it but wanted to let me know. She didn’t know if he’d told anyone else.

      Unless he and she are “work bff’s” or something of that nature, I’d bet dollars to donuts he is telling anyone he perceives as ‘receptive’ the same thing.

  14. exhausted frontline worker*

    WRT yesterday’s networking question: business cards. Does your field actually use them? (Or did people use them in recent history pre-COVID?)

    I work in homeless services, so many clients who don’t have consistent phone/email access do carry around my card so they can get in touch with me when they have access to a phone. But when I receive business cards from other people in my field, they always end up floating around my backpack for a few weeks before I recycle them. My field is small and collaborative enough that if I don’t have someone’s number I can usually send a group text to my team and someone will have it. Answering calls from unknown numbers is pretty expected in my field as well (we all have company-provided work cell phones, as we should), so I’m never weirded out when someone cold calls me. But my field is unique in so many ways, so curious to know norms about other fields!

    1. SnapCrackleStop*

      I’m in health tech and I really only use them at tradeshows. I find them useful there! You meet so many people and it is awkward to enter info into your phone as you get it (carrying stuff, no place to put anything down). Follow up conversations are usually via email.

    2. snack queen*

      I’m in the arch/interior design field and we tend to keep business cards on hand to give out at industry events and to potential clients. We have a lot of product reps that we work closely with on projects so it’s always good to have the contact info. Typically if I meet someone I know I want to work with, I will send them a follow up email so I can easily search the info later in case I lose the business card.

    3. Here we go again*

      Commission sales, I use mine to write info on the back for clients. Usually dimensions and ETA dates. So they have what they need and my info if they have questions.

    4. Dust Bunny*

      Sometimes. I don’t because I’m not in a role that faces the public, but my superiors do. We’re actually a bit miffed right now because our employer made the backs of the cards a dark color and we can’t write on them to remind people why they wanted our card in the first place.

    5. OyHiOh*

      I use business cards. When I get them, I put them in work contacts, then toss in the recycling bin. I’d rather take a card from someone and enter their information later, on my time, than have my face in my phone entering it while talking with them. Slightly old fashioned but works for me.

    6. Bagpuss*

      I often use* mine to give to clients and reception uses them as appointment cards (i.e. if someone books an appointment in person with me, they get one of business cards with the details of the appointment on the back

      I am a lawyer working in family practice, so clients are typically not business people (or at least are not interacting with me in their capacity as business people)

      Mostly with other lawyers by the time I meet them I’ll have been emailing or speaking to them by phone for a while so it would be unusual to exchange cards, but sometimes if I’m on a course I might end up exchanging cards with another lawyer or related professional such as financial advisers, in which cases I’ll keep the card until I’ve had a chance to put their details into my contacts.

      (*used, in the Before Times)

    7. AnotherLibrarian*

      I used them at academic conferences (before the Covids), because I have no memory for names what-so-ever and I need a visual reminder. However, I know not everyone uses or carries them in my field.

    8. Grace*

      I’m in information services/SaaS – I think the sales and account management team use their business cards a reasonable amount, but everyone gets a box of 250 when they join. I work in the data side of things and never see a client in my life, and haven’t handed out a single business card besides jokingly to friends when I got this role (first job out of university, so it was a big deal).

      I think my coworker used her business cards as an easy way of giving her number to people she liked at bars and social events, though.

  15. Anonymous At-risk*

    I posted a few weeks ago about the ethical dilemma of lying to get a vaccine when you’re legitimately medically at-risk but your state doesn’t prioritize you. Came back to say I did it (said I was medically eligible) and got the vaccine this week! I was worried about being questioned on my medical eligibility, but that didn’t happen at all and I feel so relieved now. My coworkers are still saying they’re healthcare workers to get the vaccine (I am one of the last to get the first dose), but I don’t have any resentment anymore since I’m finally on my way as well.

    1. Here we go again*

      I was going to ask a similar question. But the opposite, I work retail and I have had a couple customers harping on me about getting the vaccine. I’ve been able to push them off because I’m in my mid 30s and healthy, so I’ve been saying it’s not my turn. Problem is I probably won’t get it because I have a blood clotting disorder and there is little to no information about the US vaccines being safe for people with this disorder, and with what’s going on with one of the vaccines in Europe it’s extremely concerning. It puts me in an awkward spot, when someone asks me about it and they get pushy. I’m commission so I don’t want to offend them but I also don’t want to be on the spot and give personal info that’s not their business. What should I say, without getting into a debate about the vaccine and giving too much information? (I’m not looking for medical advice please don’t give it. I’ve also had 3 close relatives die from blood clot related deaths. So please don’t call me paranoid either.)

      1. Anonymous At-risk*

        If people inquire, I’d probably say something like “I’m not medically eligible to get the vaccine now” or “Unfortunately for medical reasons I can’t get the vaccine.” There are plenty of people who can’t get the vaccine (allergies come to mind) and I think keeping it non-descript is the way to go. You would get it if it were safe.

        1. OtterB*

          Seconding this. “Unfortunately, for medical reasons I can’t get the vaccine. But I’m glad so many other people are since that helps protect me too.”

      2. Jellyfish*

        For customers especially, I’d say to keep it as simple and uninformative as possible. “That’s between me and my doctor” or something similar. You don’t owe them any explanation of your personal medical history no matter how pushy they get.

          1. WellRed*

            Nope. This invites questions and arguments. I don’t understand why this topic is even coming up with customers(!) but I’d smile, say “I’m all set! Did you want to see this tuxedo in persimmon velvet?” And move on.

            1. Here we go again*

              They’re proud that they got the vaccine. Or I’ll have to adjust my mask or I’ll sneeze from seasonal allergies and they’ll ask if I had my vaccine. This is nothing compared to the customers who asked rude and invasive questions when I was pregnant. Such as if I planned on circumscising my unborn child. Or the lady who found out that I didn’t know the gender of my child if I was one of those “gender neutral freaks”.

      3. PollyQ*

        “I wish I could get one, but unfortunately I can’t due to medical reasons. Now, about the teapot spouts, should they be red, crimson, or cardinal?”

      4. a librarian*

        Depending on if you see these people again or not / will have to answer follow ups, you could also give a non-answer like “Of course everyone who is eligible should be getting one!” which they might hear as “Of course [ I got my vaccine ]” when you actually mean “Of course [ I agree with the sentiment that]” , then immediately change the subject.

      5. Lizy*

        “Oh I haven’t gotten it yet – what about these beautiful pink curtains?”

        I’m in an area where people have pretty strong opinions. My boss and at least one coworker are (or have gotten) the vaccine, so and another coworker routinely takes Fridays off to volunteer with distributions. But I also had a conversation with someone the other week who basically wanted me to admit that the people on Jan 6 were right. I love Allison’s standard change-of-subject tactic. I also often will say “oh I don’t even talk with my husband about that – I just don’t talk about *whatever subject it is I don’t want to talk about*”

      6. KR*

        I would probably go with, “My doctor has asked me to hold off for now.” or “I am working with my medical team on when I should get my vaccine.” Blame it all on some invisible doctor/medical team. If they push, you could say “I appreciate your concern but I’m in close communication with my doctor and will get it as soon as I am able.”

      7. allathian*

        It’s none of their business, so why not just lie to your customers and say you got the vaccine? Or else just say that you’ll get it when your turn comes but it hasn’t yet, which basically is the truth. You don’t need to tell them your turn may never come.

        People are often simply too honest when there’s no need to be. Boundary pushers like some of your customers definitely aren’t entitled to any version of the truth, so feel free to answer in any way that will get them off your back, even if it’s a lie.

    2. Anon Lawyer*

      Honestly, I guess I don’t agree that your coworkers lying justifies your less egregious lie. I’m a little frustrated at how many people think it’s ok to lie to the public health system even if they think they should have been prioritized. We’re not all epidemiologists, guys.

      1. Anonymous At-risk*

        Not sure if you followed a few weeks ago, but I’m only unable to get the vaccine in my state due to a totally arbitrary rule. If I lived in several neighboring states, I would have already gotten it by now. I do have a disease that increases my risk of hospitalization and death with Covid. My state had allowed me and other patients with rare disorders fall through the cracks but I’m not trying to go against science or epidemiology. Those are both clear and clearly state I should be prioritized (doctors have even written medical journal articles saying as much). I’m not saying their lie makes mine ok. I’m saying I should be prioritized but I’m being failed by the system and I no longer feel bad for taking it into my own hands.

  16. JJ*

    I posted last week about going to my boss’s boss to express a need for better upwards feedback in my office, as I know a lot of non-managers on my team feel like they’re not being heard and aren’t given enough opportunity to express their ideas.

    I was thinking an actionable thing I could suggest to management to begin with would be some sort of employee satisfaction survey. We’ve had these company wide but never on a team basis.

    Does anyone have any experience creating something like this, or have any tips on how to go about it effectively?

    1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

      Make sure you provide options in the survey as well as a blank feedback section. Otherwise just asking about satisfaction could go either way and just stir up feelings without anyone feeling like anything will be done about it. So, “Given X or Y option to complete ABC common work task, which would you prefer and why? Or do you have a better method?”

    2. BlueBelle*

      If there is a company-wide engagement survey every single one that is created is able to be sorted by department, maybe not team- it depends on the size of teams. this is done to protect anonymity. The other option is to have management take 360 reviews, these are not always popular .

    3. Ex Federal Middle Manager*

      For a smaller cohort, these are VERY hard to make anonymous, especially if you include comment sections. I run a team of 17 people, and can identify most people’s by their writing style within a sentence or two. If they include any specifics about recent events or issues I’m aware of, I can accurately name the person in a single sentence most of the time. People should be very careful giving feedback in this manner.

  17. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

    I need to travel to another city (about 2.5 hours via public transport) to pick up a computer for my new job from headquarters (I will be working from home). The cost of travel each way is about $20 which isn’t much for most people but finances are so tight till my first paycheck (we are paid monthly here). Should I ask the company to reimburse this cost, because in non-covid times they pay for bus tickets for all employees.

    1. kicking_k*

      I think you can ask. They can only say no, and I don’t think you’d be making a major faux pas if they did. $20 is almost certainly much less to them than to you.

      1. Teekanne aus Schokolade*

        Thanks for the reply! I was worried it would seem like a weird thing to ask for.

      2. Juniper*

        They should do more than ask; they should take it as a given and politely inquire about how reimbursement works. This is straight-up a legit business expense and it would be weird not to expect payment.

    2. Wine Not Whine*

      Ask! “BTW, this trip is going to cost me a fair amount in transportation. How would I go about submitting that for reimbursement?” As Allison often says, do it with the attitude of “of course this is a normal question in this situation.”

    3. RandomITguy*

      They can’t mail the computer to you? My company mails computers and other essential equipment to new hires since our offices aren’t currently open. And yes, I’d ask the company for reimbursement if in normal times they’d pay for bus tickets for employees.

    4. Reba*

      Yep, absolutely this is definitely a work task, and they should pay! Seems likely since you say they are already accustomed to paying for employee transit.

      If your transit system uses reloadable cards, any chance they could load your card and save you being out the cash up front? (In my situation, it would be possible, although with our setup for transit benefits it wouldn’t be done in time… just thought I’d mention it.)

    6. Artemesia*

      I would push on the company to have it shipped to you. We once had a computer shipped to France for work so I know it can be done. They should have it shipped by a delivery service like UPS, insured rather than expecting you to do this on public transport. I’d push hard on that before committing to this hellacious trip in a pandemic.

      1. Reba*

        That’s a great point! Unless there is like, paperwork or something additional that must be done on site, which I doubt. The courier may be less than transit and less risky for the equipment.

        1. English, not American*

          I know our new starters are required to visit the office to collect their equipment because HR need to verify their right-to-work documentation anyway, so that’s entirely plausible.

          1. Reba*

            Oh yes, I understand it’s a standard process, at my org to… but I also know plenty of people who have started new jobs completely remotely, so I know it’s possible!

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I hope you are being paid for the hours of travel time also.

      I’d like to encourage you to ask the boss. I had a situation one time where the boss needed something and asked me to drive it to him. He paid me cash out of his own pocket for gas money plus I was on the clock.

      Hopefully the idea of shipping it, works out.

    8. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Ask if they can ‘advance’ you the money (with the intent that you’ll repay it). Very likely they will offer to just pay it.

  18. Anonymous for This*

    I need some advice on … re-engaging, I guess.

    For the last several weeks (maybe 5 – 6), I’ve easily arrived *at least* 2 hours late to work. We can work remotely or work in the office. I have found that unless I have a very specific thing to do (like a report or project that has an upcoming deadline), working remotely is not something I’m effective at, so I go into the office.

    But for these last few weeks, I wake up, and I lay around for an hour or so, or hit the snooze button for an hour or so, then piddle my way to the office, then sit for two hours, realize it’s lunch, come back after lunch, and THEN I start really working. It’s like my brain doesn’t start functioning until 1:30 or 2pm. Then I’ll work until 7 or 8, then go home, then can’t sleep because my brain is focused on my being lazy, and then the process starts all over again.

    I’ve got a doctor’s appointment for a physical coming up, and I’m also working on getting a psychiatrist that I trust, but until then…I gotta do something to get better, because although our office is a ghost town, there is always at least two people staffing the front, so it’s pretty freaking noticeable that I’m strolling in 2 – 2.5 hours after my work start time.

    The thing is…I’d say I was burned out, but I don’t “feel” burned out. I like my work and I enjoy it when I actually DO work…so why is it so dang on difficult to get out of bed in the morning????

    1. Oaktree*

      This may sound unkind, but it’s genuine and meant in sincerity: can you tell yourself other people would get fired for doing what you do? I work remotely and have regular hours (though I’m salaried), and if I were regularly more than 15 minutes late, my boss would want to know why I wasn’t, you know, doing my job.

      1. Julianna*

        But other people aren’t the OP.
        If they aren’t at risk of getting fired over it, why would knowing someone else at a different company in a different job might be fired over this matter?

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I do agree with the overall idea of finding a way to give oneself a good scare. Sometimes it was the only thing that would work for me. I had to threaten myself with some horrible thing- real or imagined- to make me move along.
          That time in my life was happening for more than one reason. Eventually things calmed down and I went back to being my usual self.

    2. Solitary squirrel*

      This sounds close to my problems with concentrating (see elsewhere in the thread) and I wonder if you need more external accountability too. Like, do you have a friend (not necessarily a colleague) you could check in with to say you had got to the office? Or to say you’d done X amount of work before lunch? I would consider this except I don’t really have someone I feel I can lean on this way.

      It sounds like an executive functioning problem to me and I’d ask your doctor about that – is there any possibility you have ADHD or ASD and have been compensating in other ways until the stress of having all your routines upset meant that you just couldn’t any more? I mean, you _know_ this isn’t what you’re meant to be doing, and it isn’t fun for you.

    3. Joy*

      There are so many possibilities here!

      1) You don’t write like depression is a possibility, but are there other things going on in your life that might indicate that?
      2) Is your work slow? Do you not have enough to do in a day?
      3) Or are you overwhelmed and this is avoidance?
      4) Are you sleeping enough? It sounds like not because you’re stuck in a cycle of guilt?
      5) What are you physically doing when you’re in the office before lunch?

      Depending on the answers, I’d probably come at this from an angle not of trying to fix your work output, unless you’re at risk of being fired, but try fixing your morning routine. Get up and get dressed right away, but then do something you enjoy — drink coffee over a book, do some yoga, go for a walk — and then go to the office. And then use the morning to tackle tasks that don’t require much brain power, like organizing documents, clearing out your inbox, etc. Hopefully a new routine that gets rid of the “sitting around avoiding doing anything” parts will help and naturally lead to more engagement and less guilt?

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        ^^ Re: #1 ^^
        The pandemic has messed with sleep schedules for many many of us!

        1. Weegie*

          Agreed. This is a common covid issue. Nothing is normal right now, and it has thrown our sleep and rest cycles out of whack. It won’t help your immediate situation, but hopefully as things return to normal (when? when?!) so will your work patterns.

          In the meantime… my brain doesn’t start working until 2pm either, and never has. I finally stopped trying to make it do anything else last year, and so I just mentally changed my working hours to accommodate it. Fortunately my job lends itself to anytime working, and it sounds like yours does too, OP. I pretty much skip the mornings, start around lunchtime, stop when the work is finished, have had no complaints at all, and everyone’s happy. Call it shift work, if it helps.

      2. AnotherLibrarian*

        Yes, I think this is all good advice. I would add this, there is a lot of stress and anxiety floating around- thanks to the pandemic. As someone whose been managing my mental health for a while, I can say that the cycle you are describing sounds a lot like how I feel when I’m in a depressive episode. Not to say you are in one, but just to say that I wouldn’t dismiss burn out or depression too quickly.

        I would also not worry to much about work output, unless you are worried you might get fired. Instead, I would focus on getting to work on time and seeing how you build in accountability to get that done. For a while, I had a very dear friend who I would text every morning when I was on my way to work. If she didn’t hear from me, she would reach out and check on me. It was really helpful for a few weeks. Do you have someone you trust to let them help you?

    4. Spearmint*

      Are you still producing quality work? Is your boss happy with your work? Are you meeting deadlines and responsive to coworkers and clients (as applicable)?

      If the answer is ‘yes’ to all those questions, then maybe you’ve simply outgrown the job. Perhaps you don’t feel enraged because you can put in half-effort and still do a good job. Going long periods without being challenged or learning new things can lead to a lack of motivation. You may need to look for a new job to fix this problem, however.

    5. bunniferous*

      The obvious thing is we just went through a time change. It happens to me every year, my body clock is confusticated and my schedule is out of whack.

    6. Grumpy, Sleepy, and Sneezy, LLP*

      I don’t work from an office right now, but let me tell you — I have *exactly* the same problem trying to get out of bed in the morning and get started on my work. For me, I think it’s a combination of burnout and lack of purpose. But then again, you say you like your work, and I really don’t like mine, so perhaps it’s something else? Maybe there’s nothing urgent to get done lately, and your psyche is just kind of lulling you into a slower morning?

      Anyway, tough spot, and I don’t have much in the way of solutions, but I can relate.

    7. irene adler*

      One suggestion: Before you leave for the day, schedule a task for the next day that must be attended to first thing.
      One thought is to schedule a meeting -with someone(s)-first thing in the morning. That way you have to get to work on time.

    8. Hare under the moon with a silver spoon*

      Maybe like me you’re a night owl rather than a lark – so you naturally function slightly better later in the day? Im much happier working late and im pretty productive and sounds like you could be similar?

    9. Workerbee*

      Is there a way to pilot changing your work hours for real? It sounds like others aren’t dependent on you getting things done at the same time they are.

    10. Anonymous for This*

      I just wanted to let everyone know that I *truly* appreciate each and every comment here. I’ve been reflecting on them in my mind and trying to figure out which will work best for me.

      Just to address some concerns, I will say that I’m not in danger of getting fired, I’m not missing deadlines, I’m definitely not producing the quantity I used to produce, but I’m not behind either.

      Also, aside from the front-line staffers that are in the office from 8 – 5, the other members of our office will often come in for 1/2 days and work from home for the remainder of the day, or come in for a couple of hours at various times during the day to deal with things that require hands on work, then work the remainder of the day from home. There is no required schedule for anyone to be in the office. However, at least these people are available on our internal chat lines…I’m definitely not showing as available, nor am I answering emails during that time, and until I walk in the office, the only way for someone to reach me if they need me is by phone.

      So yeah, this behavior can’t continue.

      Again, I truly appreciate the comments and suggestions, and I thank everyone for taking the time to respond.

  19. FromIndy*

    I’m wondering if anyone has advice on how to negotiate WFH. My company was pretty against it for most people pre-COVID, but now we’ve been working from home for a year and, honestly, I love it. I never want to go back. However, like most companies, they’re talking about phasing everyone back in by the end of the year.

    To make matters worse, or at least more difficult, I guess? My manager is pushing a promotion for me with higher ups, he’s made sure to get me a bonus the last two years. I feel like if I ask for WFH privileges on top of all that, I’m taking advantage, which is probably silly. But I also know that I will be miserable going back to the office and will undoubtedly look at leaving ASAP for a WFH position.

    1. Artemesia*

      As with any negotiation for work accommodations you focus on the productivity advantages for the company. You are getting more done. You are working longer hours without the commute. It is more productive for the company.

    2. CatCat*

      It’s a deal breaker for you so it makes sense to ask! If they have a goal to retain you and promotions and bonuses aren’t going to cut it, you should make your case and ask for what you want. “Boss, since I’ve been working from home for the past year. This has resulted in X and Y benefit to the company. I also realize that I prefer to work from home. Is permanent full-time work from home a possibility at the company? I know there’s talk of bringing people back in, but is there any talk of offering telework in the future?”

    3. ten four*

      You know, if you’ve gotten bonuses for the last two years and are up for promotion that suggests that they are very motivated to keep you on board! And lots of companies are trending towards remote-first work. I’d try to mentally reframe it from “WFH privileges” to “remote-first work.” The WORK is the important part there, not the privilege.

      From a tactical perspective, you don’t have to make an official request to WFH right off the bat – start the conversation by saying your productivity has gone through the roof and you’d love to discuss options for continuing remote. Depending on the job/role they might not be able to accommodate full WFH, but perhaps there’s a middle ground (2 days in, 3 days out). If you try for a conversation instead of an ask you might be able to co-create a solution that works for everyone.

      I’ve worked remote-first for years, and my husband’s organization has decided to go remote-first in the wake of the pandemic. I hope things go well at your current place, but I bet you’ll be able to find a job that fits the schedule you want!

  20. Catherine*

    I see a lot online about how to tell your boss you’re pregnant. But what about your team? I have a direct report and am hiring another. The team is lean and overworked already so it’s going to be tough for them. I’m also planning on taking an extra month beyond what we’re provided (which is kind of generous for America, but still bad in comparison to other wealthy nations).

    When and what do I share with my team? Especially the new hire? (currently interviewing for this)

    1. Weekend Please*

      I think you should share when you are ready and not worry too much about what your team would prefer. If you are in person rather than remote, you may want to tell them before it is super obvious you are pregnant since knowing you are pregnant (or at least highly suspecting it) and not being able to talk to you about the plan for maternity leave may be stressful.

      How helpful is telling them earlier than you prefer anyway? Unless you expect them to come up with the coverage plan, there is really nothing productive that they could really do with the extra time. I’m assuming you have input into the hiring decisions, so if possible prioritize hiring someone who can be relatively independent quickly and won’t require a lot of training.

      1. Artemesia*

        With my first, I was not obviously showing until 5 or 6 mos — you can certainly wait till then to share especially if you are still working from home. Do it as it is comfortable for you; it is small beans to everyone else in spite of it being the most important thing that has happened to you yet. At 5 or 6 months there is plenty of time to plan transitions for your time off. And congratulations.

    2. Generic Name*

      I would suggest that you do at least tell your team personally (can be email or whatever, doesn’t have to be a big announcement), because it will seem weird to your team if they find out from someone else that you are pregnant. At least that’s my opinion.

      A coworker on my small team handled her pregnancy by telling very very few people, and I heard about it when I suggested putting her on a project some months in the future and my other coworker was like, “oh, she’ll be out on maternity leave then” which was a surprise to me. If this had been a coworker on another team I didn’t work closely with who didn’t tell me personally, I wouldn’t have given it a second thought, but since we worked together, and I had a reason to know for work scheduling purposes, so it seemed very strange that I found out she was going to be out within a few weeks of her actually being out.

      I think our boss was the one who actually mishandled it, as she could have said to the project managers that Employee would be out starting on Date, and will be out for X months, so don’t put her on proposals for a while. She didn’t need to state a reason if Employee wanted it to be kept secret for some reason.

    3. Cat Tree*

      I think you really need to dump this on your boss. It’s her job to find people to cover your work while you’re out.

      Tell your team as cheerfully as you would anyone else, and of course work with your boss to make the transition smoother. But ultimately it’s not your fault if everyone struggles while you’re out. If you feel like she’s not making any progress towards finding a temporary replacement or redistributing your work, you can pressing her for an update. But once the baby is here there’s nothing you can do.

      So when you tell your team, do it assuming everything will be handled well.

    4. MrsPeaches*

      I think when is really up to you. Ideally you want to give them adequate notice if they’ll be taking on additional responsibilities. For the new hire, I don’t think you need to explicitly say you’re pregnant, but you can say you’ll be taking a leave of absence that will require them to cover X, Y and Z for several months.

      As for how… If there’s any possibility that your employees might be struggling with infertility, it’s a kindness to give them a heads-up via email before you have a phone or in-person conversation. The conversation can focus on the logistics of your leave, no need to go into personal stuff. What day you anticipate going on leave, how long, how your tasks will be covered, who they should report to, etc.

    5. Malarkey01*

      My experience from both sides of this, try to get the plan nailed down with your boss so when you tell them you have details like they will be doing a temp promotion to fill my job when out or hiring a temp to assist with workload or getting help from x department, who they are reporting to because that’s the first thing your team wants to know- how will this affect my work.

      After that, in general, making sure they are looped in on things that might come up when you’re out and having documentation in place in case your baby arrives a little earlier.

  21. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    How do you guys schedule things? The most important part of my job usually only can be done in the late afternoon/ evening. Sometimes travel time can be up to one hour one way. They don’t want me to do this on Friday, actually.
    Scheduling too many on top of each other might have me get back really late at night and often people don’t like late evenings. Another problem is sometimes meetings start at 9 am.
    And also this month I had new work with tight deadlines added and I hadn’t done my old work which is due on the 30th because I had 12 hours of training. ( with breakout rooms and role plays) . A coworker needs help with his work but I’ve been pretending I don’t hear him. Help AAM people I am dying. ( a note: I don’t work weekends unless they specifically put me on call)

    1. Bagpuss*

      Is the issue having too much work and trying to get it all done, or trying to work out when to do specific tasks?
      Or having other people put stuff into your schedule that makes it hard to get to the things where you need travel time?

      I think a lot depends on how our employer / coworkers schedule things which affect you. For instance, the 9 a.m. meetings – are you asked or told?

      As an example, we use Outlook calendars. Mine is set so all staff can see what I have going on, but only my assistant and I can add things, anyone else has to send an invitation so I can accept or decline.

      For things where I nee to be out of the office, I block it out as an apointment including the travel, so if I need to attend a meeting which is an hours drive away, at 10 a.m., it will be in my dairy as “10.am. meeting with [name] at [location]” but it will be blocked out in my calendar from 9-12, to cover the travel time.

      I also block out time if I know I’ll need it, so I may have a calendar appointment which is ‘drafting’ or administration’ , basically to keep that time available for what I need to do, and to stop anyone putting other meetings or appointments at those times (at least without asking first)

      If the problem is that you have too much to do and not enough time you need to look at prioritizing, and if necessary speaking to your boss to ask which things they want you to do and whether the other things get passed to someone else , or just don’t happen.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        It’s mostly too much work. Certainly told to go to these meetings.. And people from other companies will want meetings – like today someone scheduled a 3 o clock and I just now got out. I can usually schedule them now that they all want virtual meetings but it used to be a big problem.
        I guess I’m supposed to be working during these meetings and the training but I’m scared of missing important information or being called on to talk. So every time they do a meeting or a training I’m working at 1/2 to 1/4 efficiency.
        Another problem is that I’ll have a block to do things and my boss will text me to chase a piece of paper down or my coworker exploded, help them. And things take me a long time to do- if it’s a report that requires a lot of information, it will take me a good 30 minutes to an hour.
        I try to schedule everyone’s appointment with me for when they are available- but it’s always afternoon to evening and then I get home at 6 with tons to do.

          1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

            Ok, maybe they didn’t literally explode but some crazy thing happened and can I help, I’ve worked here a long time ( almost 2 years) and..

        2. linger*

          Sounds like your entire cohort is overworked, so the only long-term solution would be to use the workload to make the business case for new hires.
          (Admittedly, even if team expansion is possible, in the short term it may not feel like much of a solution because training and documentation tasks are going to be added.)

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      It sounds like it’s time to talk with your manager/boss about prioritizing and shuffling responsibilities around. A couple of workarounds in the meantime:

      *Put travel time on your calendar for your priority tasks, to signal you aren’t available during those times.
      *Block out times on your calendar that says “working on [high priority task], do not schedule”, so you can get your highest priority work done. It sounds like you might be in a regulated field (or at least have internal reasons work needs to be done by a specific time).
      *Track how long different tasks take, so you have realistic ideas of what your capacity is (maybe use a service to help you track time on specific tasks, like Toggl, to give you realistic timeframes).

      These all need to be discussed with your manager, though, since they need to be on-board with you doing this.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        Yes my tasks certainly take much longer than they are scheduled for. Like 5 reports that take me 45 minutes each are supposed to take 3 hours. I call someone and they spend 20 minutes telling me about thier trauma. One appointment I have trouble with not scheduling on Fridays has a two hour round trip and I spend an hour there.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Are people often in trauma?
          These are clues that no one is doing well with their jobs.

          I did work one place where time was always such an issue. The thing I noticed is that huge amounts of time were lost standing around talking about the incredible amount of work. I timed these conversations they were an hour or longer. I concluded that we can either complain about the workload or, you know, work.

          I just told someone this week, “I am buried here. You know I luv ya, but I GOTTA go!” She understood. Other people might hear, “Okay, sorry to be short with you but I am backlogged. I need x and y from you then I can do ABC for you. I have to go now, I’m sorry! I will watch for your email with ABC.”

          1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

            It’s not usually my coworkers although in meetings sometimes they give way too many details of every super crazy thing that happened., but I usually do not talk to my coworkers.
            It’s the clients. The questions I ask to do my work ” how is x process going? Do you need any help?” Reminds them of the Upsetting Thing That Happened. I personally did not do the Upsetting Thing, but everyone associated with the Thing are grouped together so they are like So and So did This Thing! And Nobody Helps With That Thing! And before I know it, 30 minutes has passed.

  22. Clara*

    I’m so sad I missed the post about networking yesterday – I had a breakthrough about it this past year and would love to share.

    Especially coming out of college where we were told to network all the time, I definitely found it slimy and artificial. However in the past year I’ve been doing contract / freelancing work ,so I had to make an effort to find new gigs.

    I started off by talking to coworkers at my old job and who I knew in the past about what I was doing, and got some great help from them. Afterwards I joined every slack group, email listserv, etc I could find in my field. I participated when appropriate, and if not I got loads of leads and saw job descriptions that were posted in the group. I got one job because I posted a little message introducing myself in a slack group, and people responded. If I wanted to reach out to someone I had an easy connection – we were in the same group!

    I also did small volunteer events or panels whenever I could. It got my name out there and it made me seem like I was part of the community. I also did reach out to speakers who I thought were particularly interesting, and either dropped them just a complementary note or asked to pick their brain – and did both. Even when this didn’t immediately lead to something, the next time I do actually want to reach out to them we have some shared experiences.

    I agree that it is better when you have something to give them as well, no matter how small. I also think this advice is hard to implement straight out of college. My field is also one where people are very network-y, and once you “break in” people are willing to chat and connect and all that.

    TL;DR – hated networking, did some in ways that I didn’t think counted as networking, it went great, I will keep doing it

    1. Spearmint*

      I think you make a good point about networking being more effective once you’re established. Personally, I think networking should be emphasized way less in career advice to recent grads. It’s not helpful to tell them fake facts like “80% of jobs are never posted online and secured through networking”.

  23. anonvermonter*

    I’m starting to wrap up my current position after almost 10 years at my current company (though I have switched roles/been promoted a couple times). I am listing out all the documentation I need to update and/or create and it is a bit overwhelming to think of all the tasks I need to wrap up while also combating a mild case of senioritis. I keep getting excited thinking about my new position and projects and am just having a hard time concentrating on the administrative buttoning up I should be working on,

    1. Graciosa*

      I have this problem before vacations (smaller version) and I get through it with what seems to be a mix of professional pride and fooling myself.

      I mean this along the lines of thinking, “I have to get this in great shape before I leave (professional pride / avoiding embarrassment) or I won’t be able to go do Fun Thing (fooling myself into thinking I can’t go unless it’s done, but if it is done I’ll be rewarded).”

      It’s amazing how much I can get done with the prospect of imminent departure.

    2. Sara without an H*

      I feel for you. I’m retiring in a couple of months and, like you, I have a list of documentation that needs to be done and little appetite for doing it. But there’s an internal candidate to fill my position, and she happens to be someone I like. So I’m trying to leave things in reasonably good order, in case she gets the position.

      How much notice have you given? Even if it’s just the standard two weeks, I recommend not trying to do too much at once. I’ve made a list of those jobs that have the least documentation and that only I have been doing and writing those up first. If somebody else has at least some experience with a task, I’m just making a note that says, “See Lydia about this.” If there’s vendor-supplied training for something, I make a note of how to find the tutorials.

    3. TWW*

      How much does it really matter? People leave companies all the time (either voluntarily or not) without updating/creating documents.

      It might be a slight pain in the neck for your coworkers and successor to figure stuff out in your absence, but that’s what they’re paid for.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      It will probably go faster than you think.

      One thing to consider is to not make everything an A-1 top level priority.
      There are things that MUST be conveyed.
      There are things that are nice to convey.
      And there are things that a super thorough person would worry about and convey.

      Get the first level done and see where that puts you.

  24. IEanon*

    I second Canva! My best friend started her own side hustle recently, and she used Canva for all of her assets.

  25. urgh*

    Tips for shutting down political talk at work: I’m the manager of team that’s currently remote due to COVID (new-ish to managing the team, but not new at all to the team itself). There are seven or so of us, including me and Bigger Boss. We all have a group Teams chat that we use to talk about work and sometimes non-work stuff. 99% of the time, this isn’t a problem…except that the talk occasionally turns vaguely-to-blatantly political with 3 or so of those team members, including Big Boss herself once in a while. I didn’t care for talk turning to politics at work, but since most of my team members are on self-described “flaming liberal” side, and I’d describe myself as more “moderate,” I thought perhaps I was just being sensitive. However, recently, a team member (Sara) who I know actually agrees with my team members politically asked me if I could find a way to shut down political talk at in the group chat- Sara finds it distracting in the worst way, “even when I agree with them.” I definitely think she’s right: since is is the group chat we use for a ton of work-related functions, I’d compare it to asking team members to stop loudly discussing politics right outside your cubicle…and while she’s the first one to complain, I know she’s not the only other team member besides me that doesn’t care for it. But, what’s the best way to do it? Do I wait for politics to come up in the group chat and ask people there to politely cut it out? We do have virtual team meeting once a week…should I bring it out then (“Hey, so I noticed the talk in the chat turns to politics occasionally…)? And, finally, should I give Big Boss a heads up that I’m going to ask people not to discuss politics in the chat?

    1. Unfettered scientist*

      I’d make a new chat channel (if you’re using a service like slack) for off-topic random discussion. We did this when we had a coworker who loved to post political memes and that allowed for everyone else to just mute the channel.

    2. Reba*

      I think an OT channel is a great idea AND resetting expectations about political chat is good too. Encourage the politics junkies to start their own chats for that

      I think you should announce it preemptively at your virtual team meeting — “Y’all, we need to make a change to keep our channel effective for work. Please start threads in the new OT channel for chit chat, and keep the main channel for collaborating on projects. I also want us to tone down the political aspects of these conversations. People who want to share links and current events can do so in the [thread in the OT channel OR a whole other chat/channel, whatever you think is appropriate]”

      My organization has a general chit chat “just for fun” channel, a “useful links and relevant ideas to discuss channel” and then all the functional, doing-work ones.

    3. Snark No More!*

      You actually have the option in Teams to remove yourself from any established chat thread. It’s either I right click or three dots in the list of chats.

  26. Eleanor Knope*

    Any tips/suggestions for pumping at work? I’m lucky enough to still be working remotely until June, then I’ll be pumping in the office until about November (if I can make it a year like I hope).

    I naively thought I’d like the breaks throughout the day, but I find myself absolutely dreading every session. I try to eat enough and drink enough, but I still sometimes feel lightheaded/off after a pumping session because I can get so engrossed in my work that I forget to drink water/eat snacks.

    I block the time on my calendar, but I still get meetings that run over so I have to push my sessions back. Or my son will eat 45 minutes earlier than expected at daycare, so I can’t adjust to his schedule that day and it messes with my supply. Even when the timing works out, I just hate the interruption to my workflow. Plus, I don’t have lunch breaks to make time for the 3 pump sessions throughout the day.

    I keep my parts in the fridge between pumps during the work day, but it still feels like there’s constant cleaning of bottles/supplies.

    Help! Commiseration welcome also :)

    1. Ann Perkins*

      Hi! I’ve pumped until a year with two kids now. A few tips based on what you wrote:

      -Definitely drink lots of water and make sure to snack. Set visual or calendar reminders if you need to and have things that are handy and require little prep. Trail mix was always a favorite of mine because it’s high calorie and easy to grab a handful.
      -Keep the time as consistent as possible. If you know a meeting might run over and you’d need to start pumping, have your supplies handy so you can turn off your camera for a moment and start pumping during the meeting. If it’s a more pointless meeting where it won’t matter if you leave early, duck out early. “I have another commitment scheduled at 9 am so I’m signing off now, have a great day!” After a while you might be able to drop from 3 pump sessions a day (if that’s what you’re doing now) down to 2.
      -Use the hack of keeping your pump parts in the fridge between sessions. You only need to wash those at the end of the day. You can keep the bottles you pump into in the fridge also.

      It is tedious and a logistical hassle so I definitely commiserate.

      1. Eleanor Knope*

        Thank you so much. Those are all good tips! I think having snacks and water closer to me will be helpful (it sounds so obvious, but things are such a blur right now).

        1. Midwest writer*

          I always kept a special “eat while I’m pumping” snack. I liked Cheez-its. Because they’re salty and greasy and terrible, but also tasty and awesome. ;)
          I pumped for a year with all three of my kids. It is so daunting when it starts out … and then a year is gone in a blink. I drank Mother’s Milk tea every morning, which I always thought helped. And I stuck with more of a twice-a-day schedule. I found that was a little easier than three times.

          1. Eleanor Knope*

            Thank you! I love cheez-its, that’s a great idea. I think having tea each morning would be a nice ritual too :)

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      Honestly…if you are already having issues with it while WFH you probably won’t have a ton of luck while back at work. Several of my friends/coworkers found that the added stress really messed with their supply. My bestie got herself into a decent rhythm where her son was able to “comfort feed” in the morning and evening (she did a formula bottle then nursed him for a few minutes while he fell asleep and in the morning nursed him for a few minutes as well followed by a bottle). The bonus for her was that when she started this, he actually slept through the night better so she found that to be a major win.

      Fed is best and a happy, well fed baby and a less stressed out Mommy is good for everyone. I know that’s probably not what you were hoping to hear, but pumping at work – even in an area specifically designed for it! – is a lot harder than pumping at home. I did it for 6 months in what would be considered 100% ideal circumstances (4 dedicated lockable mother’s rooms with a lounger, desk, and work chair and a sink and refrigerator reserved for nursing mothers) and it was still an incredible relief when I stopped.

      1. Eleanor Knope*

        Thank you for your honesty! You’re right, the stress is more than I expected and making it harder on us at night. I don’t have a good stash in the freezer and I only make just enough each day to cover his daycare feedings. It’s nice to have an external source tell me that supplementing with formula is no big deal — my husband reminds me of that, but it’s hard to let go of what I imagined to start!

        1. CupcakeCounter*

          Nothing is ever what you imagine. I made SO MUCH MILK but my son could never latch (I had basketballs for boobs that were bigger than his head). We fought and fought for weeks until he and I were both crying (him from hunger, me from feelings of failure). My husband finally told me I was done nursing – I had been very successful pumping and baby handled a bottle well so that’s what we were going to do. Everyone was much happier although it was a bit more difficult than just sticking him on the boob and zoning about at 2am like all my friends talked about.

          One friend found that when she added supplemental formula (there really are some excellent ones out there!) her supply increase a little because she wasn’t as stressed about making enough.
          I made enough to feed an orphanage and still supplemented with formula for nighttime feedings because he slept better. Experiment over the next few weeks/months and find out what works best for you and your baby (and partner too – my husband really loved giving our son a bottle at night and I got a bit of time to myself). We make a lot of sacrifices for our children especially when they are infants and tend to forget that we matter too.

        2. Dark Macadamia*

          +1 I hope you’re able to figure out something works for you, but you haven’t failed if you decide to supplement or switch to formula. Breastfeeding and pumping can be SO stressful and you truly don’t have to put yourself through it to be a good parent to a healthy baby.

        3. Lizy*

          IT’S OK TO FEED FORMULA!!!!!

          I’ve gone through breastfeeding/pumping with 3 kids now. First one, I breastfed for about 18 months. Second didn’t latch at all, and I was also battling some mental health issues so I pumped exclusively for about 5-6 months. This one I think I did 5 months? He was actually the best at breastfeeding, but I needed to get back on some meds and the doctors won’t prescribe this particular med while you’re breastfeeding so… we nixed it. It was super hard for me, because I make a ton of milk and I like breastfeeding.

          Get a hands-free pumping bra. While at home, if I were you, I’d honestly just mute myself on calls/videos (and take myself off video) and proceed as normal. I routinely made calls while pumping. A couple of times people commented, but only because they knew what the sound was and it was more of a “…are you pumping? ha! that’s cool”. While at work, do the same if you can.

          Good luck!

    3. Another Mom*

      Congrats on your baby^^
      I commiderate. Do you make any “extra” in the evenings? You could pump then and just before leaving to work.

      I’ve been pumping for 3 weeks (4 month old baby). I pump once a day at 1pm and get 8-10 oz. Baby isn’t a big fan of the bottle (he makes up for that eating more at home) so that’s enough for a 9am-5.30pm day. At first i also pumped just before taking him to daycare (5 oz or so), but he doesn’t eat enough to justify it. I couldn’t fit in two sessions with my workload…

      Best wishes and good luck.

      I just rinse with clean water and then sterilize 1x/week. I use eccomum bags to store at work. Parts stay in my bag.

      1. Eleanor Knope*

        Thank you! Congrats on your baby as well :) I tend to feel so exhausted at night that the last thing I want to do is pump again, but maybe I should be more diligent about trying to get even 1 or 2 ounces. That way, I have less stress about supply the next day. I only get enough to get by each day so far.

    4. Purple Cat*

      Commiseration coming! I pumped to a year with 2 kids and hated pretty much every minute of it.
      It sounds like a you have a difficult work structure, but meeting timeliness is key. Pumping is a critical meeting that you can’t miss. You need to confirm with coworkers when the meeting starts that you have a hard stop at x. This is good business practice anyway and they don’t need to know what your conflicting meeting is. Otherwise, just settle into your own routine. I didn’t know what you meant about adjusting to when your baby is feeding, do you try to match up pumping to bottle?

      1. Eleanor Knope*

        Thank you so much! I definitely need to be better about seeing it as a non-negotiable meeting, just like if I had another appointment. And I’ve tried to adjust my pumping times based off when he eats, because otherwise sometimes he comes home at 5:30 needing to eat when I just pumped at 4, so I’m worried he won’t get enough there. I basically only pump enough to cover the 3 feedings I miss while at work, so daycare is the only bottles he gets. But maybe that’s because I’ve been adjusting my pump times! It’s all much harder than I expected :)

        1. Ann Perkins*

          You don’t need to adjust your pump times to when he eats. Stick to something like a 9, 12 and 3 schedule or whatever works for you. If he comes home needing to eat (very normal if he prefers nursing to bottles) and you’ve only pumped an hour before, it might take a little longer to get the letdown, but your body can still make more milk. It’s great for your supply to go ahead and feed once he gets home since milk production relies heavily on supply and demand.

          1. Eleanor Knope*

            That’s great to know, thank you! I will stop trying to adjust as his daycare feeding schedule changes. I think that was adding to my stress, too!

            1. Malarkey01*

              Keeping to a pumping session and doing supplemental feedings on demand may also help with supply. My second would do that and it might mean she’d want to hang out and nurse for longer because she was getting less but it also stimulated supply. If they don’t get enough from that supplemental nurse you can pop open backup expressed milk (or somewhat soon when you start introducing solids a few bites of mashed banana or similar will be enough).

              That said-with my second I nursed for 2 years, my first got 4 months before everyone was in tears and we called it. Honestly my first is far healthier, never sick, and both have good appetites and eat well years later so PLEASE know that whatever works for you and baby is best and there’s no prize for being good at either approach.

              The one thing that helped pumping sessions for me was to make them enjoyable. I saved guilty pleasure TV shows, magazines, and books. Played music when pumping in the office, occasionally called my mom or friend. Looking forward to it as a fun break worked way better than when I tried to review reports/attend conference calls/think about work or the house or whatever.

    5. lost academic*

      I’m on my second pumping period with kid #2, and I found I really have to be organized about hydrating (I was never good at it and am much better now) and snacking. I try to work through my breaks (we have laptops and when I pumped in the office I just took it with me) but I also quickly figured out what I was likely to make useful progress on and what I wasn’t, and gave myself grace to just flip through baby photos or Facebook at least one a day instead (billable hours firm).

      Be firm about meeting end times, or, in my case, I’d go and set up in my pumping space in advance of the call/meeting (mine have always been on Skype/Teams anyway) so I could start pumping when I needed to. I also realized quickly that even though I used to try and pump right when the baby ate, it was easier to try and keep to a semi regular schedule tied to when I fed the baby at home before work.

      I am not comfortable knowing what I know keeping my supplies in the fridge, so I generated even more stuff to wash with a new set every single time I pumped (3-4x/day). (Also we had not enough room in the office fridge and the entire kitchen was gross.) We replaced our dishwasher with one with a sanitizing function and I invested in a lot of spare parts – which since they need regular replacement isn’t really actual extra cost. I have since learned not to put the silicone parts in the dishwasher and it makes them last a bit longer – now that I’m at home, I toss them in a bowl of soapy water throughout the day (at the end of the day when I was in the office) and use a microwave sanitizing bag, and dry them on their own mat overnight.

      It got easier but it also got frustrating and exhausting. It got worse when I got my period back and as baby #2 dropped his feeding and upped his solids, because instead of running a surplus every day, it became a deficit and every pumping session felt like a reminder that I Wasn’t Doing Enough. I was, of course, and I got past a year even before he stopped being interested in nursing. Baby #2 however somehow eats like a horse and I don’t keep up many days, but there is a limit to what I can do about it and we’ve already made it past 6 months. I’m a lot less anxious about it now.

      1. Eleanor Knope*

        Thank you, this is very helpful! I think I need to just set 3 times a day and be firm with it, even when my little guy veers off his usual schedule. It’s so much more exhausting and anxiety-producing than I ever imagined. Congrats on making it past 6 months :)

    6. Irish girl*

      I pumped with 2 kids, 1 up til 11 months old and the other until 14 months old and part of the second was in the office and then home due to Covid. I found for both that I just had to stick to my schedule for pumping and not the baby’s for eating. Otherwise it would mess with my system. When in the office, I would make it a priority to drink water and made sure I filled my cup before and after each sessions and i did 3 a day. My teammates and manager understood that my pumping time was non-negotiable and I could call into meetings on mute from the mothers room if needed and then join in person once I was done. Once Covid hit, I adjusted my schedule a bit but was on that for 6 months and just worked while pumping. I also had the freemie cups and a Spectra S9 pump so I could get up and move around if I needed to while pumping. I found the freemie cups gave me a quicker transition between work and pumping.

      1. Eleanor Knope*

        I appreciate all the tips, thank you! I think I need to be more explicit with my team about pumping. I’ll need to look up the freemie cups too!

    7. Might Be Spam*

      I can’t help you with the pumping because I could never get it to work for me. The important thing is to find out what works for you.

      What did work for me, was a combination of breastfeeding and formula bottle feeding. I was told that it would be too confusing for the baby, but my baby did well anyway. She was happy either way. Even on my non work days we kept to the same schedule. I was surprised that she didn’t want anyone else to bottle feed her if she knew I was there. She didn’t mind that I wasn’t breastfeeding her and accepted the combination style of feeding.

      One thing that really helped, was to hold her the exact same way when she was bottle feeding as when breastfeeding.

      1. Eleanor Knope*

        Keeping to the schedule seems to be key! Thanks for the advice. I’m glad you were able to find something that worked for you and your baby :)

    8. pieces_of_flair*

      Solidarity! I pumped at work for a year with each of my 2 kids. My situation was pretty ideal since I had a private office where I could just close the door and pump instead of having to go to another room somewhere. It’s not clear whether that’s the case for you. I would wear a hands-free pumping bra and just keep on working so it didn’t have to count as part of my break time. I was also very strict with my pumping schedule. I pumped every day at 9, 12, and 3 and fortunately had the option to just not schedule meetings during those times.

      I hear you on the constant cleaning. Such a drag!

      Also if your work situation just isn’t great for pumping, you really don’t have to do it. Supplementing with formula is totally fine!

    9. Work Pumper*

      Can you pump during meetings or do you generally need to have your microphone and camera on? When I was in an open office, a few times I even pumped at my desk (cube in the back) and I’m pretty sure no one noticed. I didn’t like trudging to the lactation room and it meant I could still do work at my computer if I wanted. Or eat/drink!

      Keep snacks at your desk, like little snack bags of almonds or chocolate almonds or little protein drinks or something similar that doesn’t need to be refrigerated or prepared. Keep a big gallon of water or a thermos or similar near you too. The more you can keep near you the more you might remember to grab it.

      I kept everything in the fridge and only cleaned at the end of the day. If you’re at home, can you keep the pump plugged in next to you? Or you could also put your parts in a cooler bag with ice packs and keep them near you.

      If a meeting is running over, excuse yourself and say you have a conflict.

      Don’t feel bad about supplementing with formula! I did both with my second and it was a bigger deal for me than anyone else.

      I saw someone mentioning freemie cups. Another option is a handpump you could use at night — or on one side while your son nurses on the other side. I like the Haakaa.

      I also got my husband to start cleaning the parts in the evenings for me! But then I made sure everything was packed for my commute.

    10. Esmeralda*

      Congratulations on the little one, Eleanor, and please don’t be hard on yourself if things don’t go perfectly or according to expectations.

      It’s been about 20 years since I pumped (!). Lots of great advice from the other commenters. What I will add is:

      1. If you like your gear, cool. If not, spend the money and get a really good and comfortable pump. Extra accessories so you are not worrying about cleaning things while at work.

      2. If you have a personal mini fridge, that is the gold standard lol, even the most supportive colleagues can be surprisingly a-hole-ish about the milk bottles and gear in the staff fridge even when there is plenty of room for it. If not, get a cooler with room for good freeze-packs (or freeze those kid juice boxes) and tupperware-type containters for your used gear. Keep it in your office.

      3. Make sure you have a door that locks from the inside and put a note on the door to ensure you will not be disturbed. This may be a LIE note, such as, “phone conference with client” or whatever works best in your office to keep people from banging on the door or getting the office manager to unlock it…I mean, some places, “do not disturb” will be sufficient but some places it will not.

      4. Set up your online work calendar so that you have a 30-minute no-appointments buffer before your pumping time. Label it with whatever works best in your office to keep people from scheduling over it. If people schedule over it, regretfully decline the invitation…

      5. If anyone at work gives you a hard time in any way re pumping, take it right to your boss and ask for assistance in getting it resolved right away. If your boss is not helpful, go to your grandboss or to HR, whichever will be more responsive to you and help you resolve the issue faster.

      Remember, mama, do what works for *you*.

  27. Luna*

    Hello all, I’d love to get some feedback on a question I am wondering about. I’m HR for a small-ish company (about 10 office employees and 15 warehouse employees & drivers). We are currently wearing masks if we are not seated alone at our desks. People are slowly getting vaccinated (mine is tomorrow – yay!!). However, we have a fairly decent size contingent of folks who are opting NOT to be vaccinated, for various non-medical reasons – mainly political ones. My question to you all is 1) – Are any of you running into anything similar, and 2) what do you feel is the company’s responsibility as far as requiring masks in the office, when everyone has had the opportunity to be vaccinated? I suppose to be on the safe side we should wait until the governor lifts the state mask mandate? Please bear with me and be kind, I’m trying to get a feel for what others are doing out there, since all of this is so unprecedented. Thank you!

    1. Sleepy*

      There’s actually a lot of precedence in health care. My father worked at a hospital. For years, all employees have been required to either get the flu vaccine each year or wear masks at all times while at work. People seem satisfied with this as it respects their autonomy in medical decisions but also protects others.

      1. Artemesia*

        This. The office can require masks on the unvaccinated until the pandemic is over in your jurisdiction. They have a choice.

    2. battlesloth*

      In my opinion, it is the company’s responsibility to create a safe work space for it’s employees. Part of that is enforcing mask use for as long as it makes sense to do so. If you have unvaccinated people, you should keep enforcing a mask policy. Follow whatever the most stringent recommendations are (aka the CDC).

      2. Twisted Lion*

        +1 this. Most of my office is vaccinated but we are still following CDC guidelines for the few who didnt and wearing masks at all times.

      3. Generic Name*

        Agreed. And if the staunchly unvaccinated complain about wearing masks, say “Sorry, we only can remove the mask requirement when Blah percentage of our workforce is fully vaccinated” and let them do the math and decide which they hate more, wearing masks or getting vaccinated.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      My company just released a statement saying that while they aren’t requiring the vaccine, they are strongly encouraging it due to the type of work we do (manufacturing) and the fact that maintaining 6-ft isn’t possible in all areas. They have stated that the mask mandate will continue to be required for all employees until the state mandate is lifted OR over 75% of the department have voluntarily offered proof of vaccination. Once a department as reached the 75% number, those who ARE vaccinated will be allowed to discontinue mask use while at their desk/work station but still asked to wear them in common areas (time clock, lockers, etc…) and group meetings. Those who cannot be vaccinated for medical reasons will be allowed to unmask based only when the state order is lifted.

      My first shot is next week and a happy dance happened.

    4. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

      Most of my coworkers are vaccinated (including myself) but we’re all still requiring masks at all times.

    5. Ari*

      I wouldn’t count on a political requirement about masks to come at a time which is completely logical. To me, it seems like mask wearing can stop when vaccines are freely and plentifully available to anyone who wants to get one. Even if your state has opened up vaccines to all adults without conditions, that doesn’t mean it’s possible for everyone who wants the jab to get an appointment yet. Even then, it’s not “anyone who wants one can get one” as the date, it’s the 3/4 weeks until the second dose PLUS another 2 weeks for effectivity.

      I’m really thankful that from almost the very beginning my company has said they will be making decisions about policies and return-to-office decisions based on their own medical advisors’ (we are a big company, so even though we are not in healthcare, there are doctors on staff to make these policies) data assessment. So far they have been more on the “safe side” than the state requirements.

    6. WellRed*

      I’m assuming since this sounds political this is moot but is the company offering paid time off to get the vax? Would that help? Hinder? Just a thought.

    7. TWW*

      Follow the state mandate or CDC recommendation, pay no attention to who is or isn’t vaccinated, and why or why not.

      Even if you had 100% vaccination compliance, you would still have probably 2 employees susceptible to the disease because the vaccine is not 100% effective.

    8. Malarkey01*

      While it is still circulating at high rates in the community and as the ability to get vaccines is still new we are continuing to mask. That is way easier than policing who is or is not vaccinated and whether Bob or Jane should be wearing one and aren’t.

      Honestly as a vaccinated person I’m taking some more risks but I’m still not comfortable being in groups of unmasked people who aren’t (and the CDC confirms we shouldn’t). I would think a lot of your employees feel that way.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      From the CDC website on the page titled “When you have been fully vaccinated”:

      “We’re still learning how vaccines will affect the spread of COVID-19. After you’ve been fully vaccinated against COVID-19, you should keep taking precautions in public places like wearing a mask, staying 6 feet apart from others, and avoiding crowds and poorly ventilated spaces until we know more.”

      Everyone, no matter of vaccination status, should all be doing the same thing. There doesn’t seem to be any need to figure out who has or has not been vaccinated.

      This is kind of a sticking point for me. Some of the biggest worriers I know are now saying, “I have the vaccine so I am going to travel all over now.” Huh? I don’t get it. How do you go from a ton of worry down to zero in two vaccines?

    10. Is it tea time yet?*

      I’m getting my second shot next week (yay!), and will continue to wear a mask around other people until the pandemic is over. The only way I’m relaxing any of my precautions is that I will finally be able to visit with my sibling and aunt and uncle who are also vaccinated. Also will be spending a lot more time with vaccinated friends, but we’ll still probably continue to keep most of our meetings outdoors for the near future.

      Maybe I’m too cautious, but the way I think about this is that if I were in a situation where my birth control was 75-95% effective (like estimates for the vaccines), then there would have to be a good back-up method to avoid pregnancy. So continuing wearing masks and distancing in public are my back-ups, and for me the vaccine is a way to not feel so worried about getting sick.

  28. 1234*

    My sibling feels that I should be applying for other opportunities because I currently work at a small business (been there 5+ years) and the benefits are not as good as larger employers. This is true – we don’t have retirement benefits, and our hours/pay were reduced due to the pandemic and that’s Sibling’s main sticking points. The hours/pay is something that will be re-adjusted to pre-pandemic rates once the business generates more revenue and the higher ups have been very open about this topic. 

    However, I don’t actively hate my job but I don’t have passion for what we do either. I can and will do all that I am assigned, be pleasant to co-workers etc. There are also many things I like about the job including:
    – My boss is wonderful! We work well together (I know people say that good people leave but Boss has been there for multiple decades)
    – My coworkers are a great group of people and I truly enjoy working with them. They are also pleasant, kind, happy to help, etc. 
    – Work/life balance. I realized how much I value this, coming from a place that overworked their staff. Before our hours were reduced, we had the benefit of the office closing 2 hours early every Friday, not just summer Fridays.

    Sibling wants me to apply at larger employers where Sibling feels that the pay would be more competitive and the benefits are better. While this is true, I am comfortable where I am right now. I will apply for things I could possibly be interested in/qualified for but is it so wrong to be ok/comfortable with my current job? What would you do if you were at a job like mine?

    1. Sleepy*

      I wonder why your sibling cares so much what kind of employer you work at? It’s totally fine to feel satisfied with a non-prestigious or lower-paying job. You, not they, are the one spending 40 hrs /week there.

      1. 1234*

        Sibling is one of those “rockstar employee” types working at Large Company with awesome benefits. Sibling is worried that I am not making as much $ as needed for retirement/The Future.

        1. HigherEdAdminista*

          As a former pushy older sibling (I’m no longer pushy… as much lol), I can tell you that ultimately this is sibling’s situation to get comfortable with. They have to learn to accept that you and they have different work lives and work goals, and you may never want to work in the kind of environment they do and that is totally fine.

          However, retirement money is definitely a concern. I presume they love you and want you to have a comfortable future. Since your employer doesn’t offer retirement savings, you might want to look into your own plans, if you haven’t already done so. Even if you are young (especially if you are), starting saving even a little can really help.

        2. Esmeralda*

          Sibling could give you the $ to contribute to a Roth IRA if you do not have one or can’t contribute much to it. I mean, if the concern is, you don’t have good benefits, sibling can help you with that one. Or is sibling one of those people who doesn’t just give you good advice, but makes sure you hear that advice all the freakin time?

    2. Noncompliance Officer*

      I mean, are you happy with your job? Are you desperate for more money or need better benefits? If you’re happy and the pay and benefits work with your life, I don’t see why you need a different job. Not everyone’s life is completely defined by their work.

      1. 1234*

        My job isn’t one of those “I’m super passionate about what we do!” jobs but it is one that utilizes skills that I have/skills that I learned from Previous Job.

        I think almost everyone could use more $. With me, the reduction in pay sucks but it’s not Living In Poverty wages. I can manage for the short term on that salary but I also see things are picking back up with states reopening/planning for larger gatherings.

    3. Jenna Webster*

      If you want to stay where you are, I do think you should consider whether you will be able to put enough money away for retirement. Even if it seems a long way off, the day will come when you want or have to leave and you want to be sure you can be in a position to do so comfortably. If you can’t, it is probably at least worth considering positions with benefits – you can afford to be picky and wait for a great job with a great environment, since you already like where you are.

    4. should i apply?*

      I admit I am curious why your sibling keeps bringing it up. Are you maybe complaining about your job or asking for money more than you realize and your sibling is just trying to help or are they the type who always knows how other people should run your life?

      I totally get that work life balance is important, but there is also something to be said for financial security. If that isn’t an issue than don’t worry about it. If it is an issue, just realize that a larger employer doesn’t necessarily mean a worse work like balance or bad co-workers. Also applying isn’t the same as accepting a new job, its just part of the process to learn more.

      1. 1234*

        Nope, Sibling mentioned “I know that you are very comfortable at your job.” And I have never asked Sibling or anyone else for money.

        I can be transparent. Prior to the pandemic, I made something in the $50-65K range. I am single and have no kids.

        1. Natalie*

          This seems like a great time to tell them to shut it. With whatever level of kind but no nonsense works for your relationship.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Agreed.
            Get an IRA, make regular deposits and tell sib “thanks, but I am good here.”

    5. katz*

      This is not your sibling’s business, unless you often ask them for financial help. If they are saying these things out of love and concern, they probably think you’re underselling yourself. Let them think that.

      Passion is overrated. A wonderful boss, great co-workers, and work/life balance are invaluable. If any of these factors change, you can re-evaluate at that point.

      One point of caution: make sure you are able to set aside some savings for emergencies and retirement. You can set up retirement funds yourself, but the earlier you start, the better.

    6. LDN Layabout*

      If you’re happy and your choices don’t impact your sibling/other loved ones? You’re golden.

      I’ve seen it in my family where a sibling’s choice of job has heavily impacted their sibling in a number of ways, from not wanting their nephews/nieces to be homeless, to taking on the financial burden of supporting their parents without help from the other sibling. But in the majority of situations, that’s an extreme example and your sibling is just being overbearing.

      1. Artemesia*

        This. If it is putting a burden on your sibling then consider a change. If not how about ‘Hey Fred, I heard you the first time. Can we stop talking about how to live my life?’ Then enforce that by refusing to participate in this discussion and if he presses it, get off the phone, leave or leave the room.

        1. 1234*

          I do not ask my family members for $. Sibling will randomly gift me money on my birthday/Xmas but that’s it.

          I do not expect any financial help at this point in my life but I think Sibling seems to think because I don’t make LOTS OF $$ and I have a roommate in an expensive metropolitan city means “You are broke.”

          1. LDN Layabout*

            I do not expect any financial help at this point in my life

            But your sibling is worried about benefits and in particular retirement benefits. So yes, they should leave you alone, but if they don’t see you doing anything about future planning and you don’t seem enthusiastic about changing that any time soon, I can understand why that might worry them.

    7. LuckySophia*

      You and your sibling are both ‘right’: There’s nothing wrong with choosing to value intangibles like “wonderful boss & colleagues, and great work-life balance” to make you comfortable and happy where you are. There’s also nothing wrong with choosing to value tangibles like “much better compensation & benefits” to pave the way to a much more secure financial future.

      The real question is, what’s motivating your sib to urge you to change jobs? If it’s just that the two of you value different things… well, each of you gets to have your own opinions.

      It could be worth having a convo with your sibling to find out where their concern is coming from: Are they seeing that you currently don’t make enough to meet expenses, and your sib — or parents– have to keep chipping in to make up the difference? Does sibling have a legit concern that your company may NOT bounce back from the pandemic, and may NOT be able to restore your pay to previous level? Does sibling fear that with no benefits/retirement, you’re going to end up living in a cardboard box (or have to move in with them) 25 years from now? Is sibling worried that your parents may (at some point in the future) need financial support, and all that would fall on your sib because you would be unable to contribute?

      If you can find out whether your sib has a specific fear that’s motivating their comments…and examine whether that fear is actually realistic, or groundless…it should help you make an informed decision about the benefits and risks of staying where you are, versus getting a different job.

      1. 1234*

        Honestly, I don’t know what is motivating Sibling to say all of this. To answer your questions:

        Are they seeing that you currently don’t make enough to meet expenses, and your sib — or parents– have to keep chipping in to make up the difference?
        Nope! I pay most of my expenses by myself. I don’t ask for financial help. Our parents do still pay our phone bill but that’s because we are on a family plan that is very cost-effective. I can easily pay that myself and have offered to pay our parents back for my portion multiple times but they have always declined saying the amount isn’t very large and they got it.

        Does sibling have a legit concern that your company may NOT bounce back from the pandemic, and may NOT be able to restore your pay to previous level?
        I don’t know. If Sibling does, I don’t have the same concern. The higher ups at my job bring up the topic of full pay at almost every staff meeting and have specifically laid out what has to happen financially for us to all get our full pay. Given what we do, I do see it eventually bouncing back but I don’t know when.

        Does sibling fear that with no benefits/retirement, you’re going to end up living in a cardboard box (or have to move in with them) 25 years from now?
        I think this might be it. I feel like Sibling is expecting me to have to move in with them at some point.

        Is sibling worried that your parents may (at some point in the future) need financial support, and all that would fall on your sib because you would be unable to contribute?
        I think this might be it as well. I would also not be able to contribute nearly as much as Sibling can. Sibling has not brought this up but I know they have thought this.

        1. TiffIf*

          It sounds like your best options here are to either have a conversation about what is driving these sudden concerns (whether is is concern for the future without retirement benefits or parents support or whatever) or just straight up tell them to drop it–“I am satisfied with where I am, please stop bringing it up” and enforce the boundary.

          1. Esmeralda*

            Yes.
            Would your sib be amenable to something like, Hey, Sib, I’ve been thinking about what you said about retirement. So for my birthday/Christmas/gift-giving occasion, would you be cool getting me a session with a financial planner/a [legit] financial planning course?

            I do think saving for retirement is important, and the younger you start, the better (because the money has more time to grow). But it’s hard to do when there’s not much wiggle in your budget, or when you don’t know how to find the wiggle and what to do with it. A session with a planner could help you set reasonable goals, find places in your budget to save/redirect money.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Supporting parents. My first concern with supporting parents is setting the precedent and accidently causing yourself to become responsible for future bills because of paying earlier bills. If sib mentions this tell them you want everyone to talk to an attorney for planning so that everyone is well protected.

          My stance is DO NOT pay your parents medical bills. No-no-no. Decades ago my mother racked up a quarter mil in out of pocket. Ten years later my father easily blew through several hundred thou. If I tried as an only child to cover all that, I seriously doubt I would be here now. It would have plowed me under.

          As far as retirement is concerned, you probably get letters from Social security saying how much you would make if you retire at a given age. You can check these amounts and see what you think. More and more people are opting for very simple housing that is less apt to incur big expenses. And they are actually enjoying their simplified life. Not everyone wants to retire to a 200 room mansion with no one else in it.

          As it stands now, answer the question to the limit it is asked. So saying something like, “I am good here, thanks for caring though.”, should be enough. If it’s not enough and you are correct about these hidden concerns, that will become apparent shortly. And you see my thoughts on these other concerns.

    8. Dust Bunny*

      Tell your siblings to butt out.

      I have opinions on my siblings’ work decisions and I’m sure they have opinions on mine but we all just stay out of it unless somebody pointedly asks for input (or if a situation seemed glaringly dangerous/unfair/illegal/etc., but that hasn’t happened).

    9. CupcakeCounter*

      The only reason I would be looking to leave is because of the lack of retirement benefits. That is a pretty big deal for me and over my career has equated to probably 25% of my current retirement fund between the contribution matches and profit sharing. If I continue at my current rate, my guess would be that by the time I retire the companies I’ve worked for will have contributed over $100k to my portfolio (I always max out the match % and put 100% of bonus/profit sharing into my retirement account).

      If I were in a job like yours, I would make sure to have a really good financial advisor to help me ensure a comfortable retirement and enjoy the balance your job allows.

    10. TiffIf*

      Tell your sibling (if you are feeling gracious) “I appreciate your concern, but I am satisfied with where I am right now” or (if you aren’t feeling gracious) “butt out”.

      This sounds like it may be a new thing in your relationship? If so can you ask (if you are interested) why the sudden interest? Maybe they have a friend who is in a similar situation where hours and pay was cut and they recently lost their job instead of being restored to full compensation like the company promised and sibling is worried about the same thing happening to you. Maybe sibling’s father in law was laid off due to the pandemic or forced into early retirement and is now having financial trouble because the job offered no 401k/pension and they’re getting only a small SS amount.

      Or maybe this sibling has just always been the one nosing in your business and this is just their newest hobby horse.

      You know your sibling better than any of us. There is nothing wrong with feeling comfortable in your job even if you realize you could make more elsewhere. But if you generally have a good relationship with your sibling there isn’t any harm in discussing why they think this is so important suddenly.

    11. Bagpuss*

      It’s your job, your life, and your business.
      It’s fine to have different priorities.
      Not everyone is passionate about their job, and not everyone wants to pursue money over other advantages. Working for a smaller employer often means lower salary / less good benefits but equally it can have advantages – it can (not always, but sometimes) be less pressured, it can mean more varied work because you wear more hats and/or cross train in a range of areas, it can give you more choices in terms of location – there are lots of quality of life issues.

      I made a conscious choice about the type and size of organisation I wanted to work in. It’s not prefect, but I have a better work/life balance and more autonomy than I’d have if I’d chosen to go for the ‘better’ job with better benefits.

      Years ago, my dad turned down an incredibly well paid secondment (and then left the employer, because they tried to force him) because the money was pretty much the only good thing about it.

      It’s about deciding what it right for you.
      By all means, think about what you, personally, like and dislike about your current job, and think about the pros and cons of other types of job and whether you feel that there would me more positives than negatives if you made a move, but don’t change just because someone who isn’t you thinks you should.

      Maybe talk to your sister about why she is bringing this up. Maybe she sees it as encouraging you, and thinks you undervalue your own skills ? (or possibly, she isn’t happy in her own job and it’s more about wanting you to follow her lead, so she can feel validated in her own choices!)

      1. 1234*

        Sibling loves their job but admits that hours are long and work piles up. Sibling does see it as encouragement and wanting better for me but I also do not want to move from the environment that I am in to an environment that some of the AAM letter writers work in! Someone else mentioned that there is less pressure in a smaller company and she is more correct about that. I no longer worry about “billable hours towards a project” and just code my timesheet to what’s fair and accurate.

        I also do not want to be at a job working ALL THE HOURS. I’ve done that and it left me no time to do much else. When I worked at OldJob, I made lots of ramen for dinner because it took very little time and effort. I loved the work that we did but there was also so much internal sniping at each other BS that I don’t care for.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          As a parallel, my husband and I bought a modest house. Everything is on one level and the ease of use is GREAT. I am very comfortable here.
          Richer relatives literally LAUGHED at our little modest house. I just smiled smugly to myself.
          The years rolled by, tiredness set in with aging.
          Suddenly the richer relatives were not laughing at our little easy to use house any more. They had to sell their house and get something similar to ours.

          You may see a similar pattern where your sib decides that maybe you were right after all. As the decades roll by and you have less medical problems; less bills because you can do things in your off-hours and you don’t have to pay people; and you seem happier in some ways. sib might start rethinking this a bit.

          Definitely look at retirement planning for your given setting. But otherwise, I’d let the remarks go and smile smugly to myself.

          1. 1234*

            But the funny thing is, Sibling lives modestly! Sibling and Partner purchased a modest home even though they could’ve afforded a much more expensive one.

            Sibling is chronically stressed due to work and to be honest, I feel like Sibling gets “under the weather” more than I do! Idk how many times during the year I hear “ugh my nose is stuffy” or “I’m taking a sick day. I have a bad headache.”

    12. PollyQ*

      First, and most importantly, I would tell Sibling that Sibling is free to pursue their career any way they like, but to please stop pestering me about how I’m pursuing mine.

      And no, there’s nothing at all wrong with being ok/comfortable at your current job. That said, I think it’s worth thinking about your career — that classic “where do you see yourself in 5 years?” kind of question — and consider the possibility of moving into a higher role, different employer, or even a different type of work. Not that you have to! Your current job sounds like it has a lot of good things about it. But as someone who’s now middle-aged, I wish I’d been a little more proactive about my career & the jobs I worked, rather than just being “comfortable.”

      1. 1234*

        I’ve thought about that question a lot. The answer is “I don’t really know.” which isn’t a great answer. I can see myself doing so many different things but nothing is a definite “Yes! This!”

        What makes you say that you wish you had been more proactive about your career and jobs that you’ve worked?

    13. 70C*

      In defense of the sibling, what is your fallback plan if you have a stroke and cannot take care of yourself, much less work? Who will take care of you? I think that is the real issue. If you can demonstrate that you have a plan for that (God forbid), I think they’ll leave you alone. Good luck to you. I am envious of your work life!

  29. Seventeenlights*

    I work part-time and about a year ago took extra hours to support an additional project on a different team at work – it’s in my area of expertise career-wise but outside the scope of the job I was hired to do here. Fast forward a year and the team has some major interpersonal issues and I have some ethical concerns around the team’s work (science/healthcare) so I’d like to remove myself from it and am happy to reduce my hours to take account of not being on this project. My problem is how to do this without burning every bridge in the city. My boss is aware of the issues within the team (they don’t report to him, they’re actually above him in the hierarchy) and knows I’m not happy to continue working with them. I’ve flagged that I want to step back and go back to my old duties/workload but this is being met with a lot of pushback. I’ve never in my career uttered the words ‘that’s not in my job description’ but I just want to scream them right now. How do I exit this and try to salvage my professional standing and relationship with my boss? I don’t want to come across as petulant or uncooperative but I’ve had enough of it.

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      I would go to your boss, explain that you were happy to help out and increase your hours for what you thought would be a short term, but now that it appears that this is a long-term need you realize that you would want go back to the original reduced hours and duties and say, “how do we make that happen by X date?” Don’t hint, state it as an “of course this is a reasonable request that you will accommodate.” If the answer is that this is your job now, take it or leave it, then you have your information and it might be time to look for a new job.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        +1

        The “I was happy to help short-term” is great framing with the “of course this was meant to go back to normal.”

      2. Slipping The Leash*

        Especially since it’s a reversion to shorter hours — you don’t need to get into your (reasonable!) issues with the other team/project. People can prefer part-time work for all kinds of reasons – family, education, health, whatever.

    2. Super Duper Anon*

      Honestly, push back as much as you can but you may just have to leave. I was in a somewhat similar situation in a previous job. I worked full time, but took on a set of work duties for a team. They also had major interpersonal issues, and the group was completely dysfunctional. I made it clear at the point that I was dissatisfied that I wanted out of the work, and my manager knew how unhappy I was but didn’t remove me. I figured out at that point that I would never be taken off of it for various reasons, and I chose to find a new job instead.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Who is pushing back and what does that push back look like?

      Guilt trip:
      “Ohhh they really need you…”
      You can point out that it’s very nice to hear that but you feel you have gone as far as you can go here.

      Threats:
      “Oh the project will fall apart without you…”
      Again, nice to hear such confidence in your own personal efforts, but you sincerely doubt that will actually happen.

      “Well we may not have PT work for you if you don’t do this Project work!”
      Then you point out that you volunteered to take it on and you have done so for a year and now can be someone else’s turn.

      I think I’d say something like, “I feel I have contributed all I can and it would be a more effective use of company payroll to consider other people for my role.”

  30. I am not the Lorax*

    Sigh. I’m having a hard time thinking kind thoughts about one of my direct reports. Every time I answer a question from him he tells me, “I was thinking the same thing.” Every. Single. Time. I provided information twice today and it happened both times. But rather than saying, “hey I was thinking maybe I should do X” he asks “What should I do for X?” I get it. Insecurity sucks. But is it so hard to simply say, “Thanks” and call it a day? And I have told him repeatedly that he should share what his thoughts are. But he won’t, because he’s too scared of being wrong, and it’s not because I’ve created a culture of oppression (I once told him point blank, because it happened so often, that if he didn’t feel comfortable approaching me, he could ask colleagues, and he was adamant that he felt comfortable.)

    1. Graciosa*

      Have you tried asking him what he thinks *before* you give him an answer?

      I would be pushing him for thoughts and options before you answer the question – it’s good development for him to start presenting options, and might help you move past your frustration with the existing pattern.

      1. I am not the Lorax*

        Ahhh, I keep meaning to do that. It’s not always clear to me that he might know something before he asks, but you’re right, there are certainly times when I can ask what his thoughts are.

        1. Bagpuss*

          I’d ask him anyway.
          That way, if he does know but needs validation, then you saying ‘yes, that’s right’ or ‘yes, that’s what I’d start with’ should help him to become more confident in his own knowledge, and if he doesn’t know then hopefully he’ll be less likely to claim he did, if you’ve just asked him and he hasn’t answered!

          Also, it can help him to think it through rather than relaying on you .

          depending on the type of question you can also try breaking it down and encouraging him to find his own answers – so maybe encourage him to think through what he’s trying to achieve, what the steps will be etc –

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I agree. It seems to happen often enough that you can just assume it will happen each time.

            Going in a different direction, you can just decide to hand out fishing poles not fish. If a person is not confident they will not gain confidence by being handed answers. Start doing things such that he has to work it through with you. Especially instances where he is asking the same question in different costumes. “This is like the Jones case. Remember you had to do x and y, this is another instance of where you will have to do that again.”

    2. Sleepy*

      Is it an option to just…take longer to get back to him? I find that can actually really help people get in the habit of answering their own questions.

      It’s not clear if these are things you’ve already covered or that he really should know. I wouldn’t necessarily delay answering someone who has a question that’s truly out of their league. But if you can say “I’m in meetings all day today, please go with your best judgment” that can force people to start to rely on themselves more.

    3. RabbitRabbit*

      Is there any way you could mentally reframe it as one of his conversational quirks? People frequently use certain filler words and other things as communication tools, whether they realize it or not. Could you maybe mentally rewrite it as “he is agreeing with me and trying to appear competent”?

      I have a colleague who always, ALWAYS leads off a question with “Quick question” – even if it’s the farthest from quick. Whether it’s by text, email, verbally, whatever, “Quick question” is her go-to. I’ve had to mentally rephrase it as “she is asking a question and alerting the team to think about what the solution is.”

      1. lost academic*

        It sounds a bit like a verbal tic – he was thinking that and he was anxious and he’s now relieved that you ahev confirmed his rationale. But while it’s understandable it’s also irritating you and it’s a good thing to work on.

    4. Marzipan*

      Is the problem mainly that he’s doing the ‘yes, that’s what I thought’ thing, or is it how much he’s asking about in the first place? Like, is the number of requests for your input broadly reasonable and this phrase is perhaps just an annoying habit, or is he constantly and endlessly running things past you because he genuinely doesn’t trust his own judgement?

      1. I am not the Lorax*

        I literally once told him that I would rather he ask 100 questions than none at all. Because at one point that was also an issue, he would move ahead on tasks with some assumption that he knew who to ask or what to do and then I would end up with a mess to clean up. He seems to hide what he doesn’t know or overemphasizes what he does know. I’m not even sure if he realizes he’s doing it. Which maybe means I should be kinder. But, while his tone is perfectly collegial, that response is sometimes dismissive of the advice, direction, information I’ve provided. His judgment is not wonderful and I say that without personal criticism. He’s naive and his judgment is also naive, which was a surprise given his experience. I recognize my own limitations as a manager that I will not be the person who can help him improve that, it requires much more skill and patience than I have.

        Sorry, I’m venting. But also hoping for options that are practical and helpful, but won’t drain my patience and energy.

        1. Marzipan*

          Venting is perfectly legitimate!

          When I’m faced with stuff like this, I try to design a process that minimises the hassle and/or changes of things going wrong. (Examples: we learned that to stop one manager from emailing us about every. single. thing. in turn whenever she’d been in leave, we could send one summary email before she got back with all our updates. Or, we came up with a way to stop another department from sending us ‘urgent’ requests that weren’t all that urgent, having promised members of the public that we’d do things for them that we weren’t going to do – basically we designed a form for them to use when referring people to us, that funneled them through asking the right questions and saying the right things.) So, I don’t know the specifics of your work or the timescales in which you need to get back to him, bit I wonder whether there’s a way to come up with a framework to contain his question-asking to make it more manageable and less draining. Maybe like a daily digest summary of where he’s at on things and any questions he needs answering to progress?

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Is he working on a par with other people who have similar time/experience in the job?

    5. Overeducated*

      So, a few years ago in a midyear performance review, my manager actually told me that one of the areas I should work on was taking more of an assertive role in these discussions. She said, “instead of giving a summary of the issue and then asking me what the best course of action is, I’d like you to recommend one based on your experience. Yes, the decision ultimately belongs to management, but someone at your level should be bringing us potential solutions to support our decision making process.” My workplace was very hierarchical and I’d previously been concerned about stepping out of line, but this feedback really reframed things for me and helped me take more of a leadership (but not managerial!) role in our program. Maybe something like that would help your report.

      1. I am not the Lorax*

        I have a few direct reports. I encourage them all to do this, including him. As someone above said, I should reiterate that in the moment when he’s asking his questions.

    6. Distractinator*

      Sure, maybe he was “thinking the same thing”, but how many other things was he also thinking? Would he reply that to basically any answer you gave right or wrong? I’d see his reply not as an indicator that he had it solved and didn’t need to ask you, but that he’s somehow insecure accepting your advice without now pretending like he didn’t really need it.

      Maybe when he asks you “what should I do about X?” instead of replying “you need to do Y” you say “I know how I’ve handled it in the past but why don’t you tell me a few of your ideas first” and you can get a sense of whether your answer really was on his list of thing he was genuinely thinking.

    7. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I’ve had a lot of dealings with people like this (direct reports in the past, but also people asking me about this I’m a “subject matter expert” for although they do have a reasonable level of knowledge already)… I’ve found the “what have you already tried”, “what sort of approach are you considering?”, “how do you think is a good way to proceed with this?” etc to be effective. Quite often they have the answers already, or if not I can help clarify their thinking and give the additional needed info if required.

  31. Stephen!*

    I left my job due to long haul Covid. It was a physical job and some of the symptoms made it really dangerous to continue doing it. Now I am to a point where I am ready to start job searching. I was looking to transition fields anyway and have been taking classes to help make the change. My only concern is with answering the question of “why did you leave your last job?” Unfortunately, due to moving for my ex’s career, I have a job hopper-ish resume. I had hoped to stay at my last job longer- I was there for two years. I can also use them for a reference and I was clear when leaving that the issue was my health. But I don’t want to create doubt that I would be able to do any job, especially when Covid symptoms vary wildly. Would something like, “I had to leave last job due to the long haul Covid. Although I enjoyed the job, some of my symptoms made it dangerous to do a highly physically involved job. I had been thinking about transitioning to this field anyway, and Covid speeded up the timeline,” be sufficient?

    1. Stephen!*

      I meant to add that the field I am looking to get into would be largely computer based and would be fine to do with my particular blend of long haul Covid.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      If you don’t want to inspire concerns about your ability to do the job, I wouldn’t mention the Covid. You could say something like “I realized I wouldn’t be able to do this highly physical job for the rest of my life, and I was interested in X field.” It’s not untrue.

    3. JanetM*

      I think, “I had some health issues that are now resolved,” might be sufficient? And then maybe something like, “I had been thinking about moving into this field, and this particular job intrigues me because …”?

    4. Purple Cat*

      I think you can use a more generic “the pandemic made me rethink what I was looking for in a job, and I’ve been interested in this field.” Accurate, without delving into personal medical details.

    5. Pocket Mouse*

      Similar to what Janet M and Purple Cat said, maybe something like ‘Although I enjoyed my previous job, aspects of the work were made more difficult when Covid hit. I’d been planning into this new field anyway, so took it as inspiration to make the move sooner than I initially thought I would. I’m excited about this role because…’

      No need to specify that Covid hit you, specifically! With regard to quitting and any gap it may have caused, I’ve had luck with ‘I’m fortunate to be in a position to spend time preparing for work in [new field]/focus on pursuing roles that seem to be a great fit/etc.’

    6. Temperance*

      I would focus on your training and skills, and why you want to work in a technical field rather than manual labor. Definitely don’t mention the COVID; I wouldn’t want to hire someone who made it clear that they were taking this job as an afterthought because they have significant, ongoing health issues and maybe an infectious disease.

    7. Wendy City*

      I don’t think you need to get that specific. “I had a health issue that made it dangerous to do a highly physically involved job – that I knew I wanted to transition out of eventually.”

    8. 1234*

      I agree with the other comments. Don’t mention the COVID. I would say something along with “I had a health issue that I had to take care of. It is now taken care of and I am ready to transition to ____ for XYZ reasons.”

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Tangentially I just read an article (Washington Post probably) talking about early reports of some people having their long-haul symptoms drastically reduce after vaccination…so fingers crossed for you.

  32. Marzipan*

    I’m getting closer to returning to work from maternity leave and trying to get my head straight and think about how best to approach it. Closer in this context means about 5 weeks to go – I’m very aware I’m in a really fortunate position and that there are people whose whole maternity leave is only a few weeks. The other side to that, though, is that a LOT has changed while I’ve been off…

    – I’ve pretty much skipped the pandemic. There are tons of practical things on site, like twice-weekly lateral flow testing, one way systems in buildings, PPE of varying kinds in various contexts, that are all new to me. I’ll also be working from home some of the time, and a lot of the technological tools involved are ones I haven’t used before.
    – Many of the services we refer into have changed their practices, availability etc due to covid, so I’m not confident I know what’s available to clients in the way I was before.
    – The team reporting to me has been completely restructured over the last year (this was planned pre-covid). I had some involvement in this, but I know very little about the detail. The execution of some of these changes had also inevitably been impacted by covid.
    – The team my team sits within has also been changed significantly. There are roles that didn’t exist before; there are people who were previously in one job who are now in new ones. I don’t really know how all this sits together.

    I also have a new line manager (new to me, and afaik to the organisation). Last week I was feeling a bit fragile because our attempts to connect had gone a bit awry; I’ve chilled out a bit about that now and we’ll hopefully be meeting soon. I’m trying to think about what to ask for in terms of getting settled back in. So far I’m thinking:

    – Shadowing colleagues on casework to begin with
    – Structure charts of all the general new stuff
    – Time with my immediate counterpart to get to grips with the detail of our specific team.

    Anybody got any other tips or thoughts?

    1. ferrina*

      Virtual coffee with your work friends. That’s always my first stop- talk to the folks who have their finger on the pulse and are happy to talk to me. Even if they aren’t directly tied to your work, they can help walk you through the organizational changes and just let you know other things that might be helpful to know. It SO useful- plus just fun to catch up! And it’s a safe place to say “Wait, I don’t get this….”

      Also, love your name! Marzipan is the best.

    2. PollyQ*

      A small tip: When you talk with your new manager, you could say something like, “With all the recent changes, I feel a little like a new employee rather than a returning one.” It might help your manager to understand why you’re asking for things like training & shadowing.

  33. AndersonDarling*

    I’ve been interviewing with a company for 3 months and everything was great until my final interview. The interviewer (male) was gaslighting me (woman) the whole interview. Every time I answered a question, he figured out a way to be offended by my response. I didn’t recognize it as it was happening, and I was pretty much a bumbling mess by the time the hour was up.
    Before the final interview, I was absolutely pumped about the job, and the company is nationally recognized as a “Best Places to Work” company. If the job offer is contingent on that last guys approval, then I definitely won’t be offered the job. But the other 5 interviewers all loved speaking with me, so maybe there could be an offer. But I don’t know if I could even accept the role if it was offered. Now that I’ve had time to review the conversation, it’s really soured my view of the company.
    But geez! I’ve invested 3 months into the interview process!

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      Will you have to work with this person? If you are offered a job, was there someone else (preferably a woman) you met who you really clicked with? If so, I would call that person, share that you got an offer and that you are excited but then broach the subject. I’d say something like, “my conversation with Dude is giving me some pause, can you tell me what he’s like to work with?” Their response should tell you a lot. If they are defensive, evasive etc then that is good information to have. If they acknowledge that Dude is an asshat but it isn’t an problem because XYZ, then that’s good information. And if they claim they don’t know what you are talking about, then that is good information too, because it tells you that Dude is good at hiding his asshatery.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I don’t think I would be working directly with the Guy on a regular basis. It’s a project based job and teams would switch depending on the project. The Guy is too high up to be involved on smaller projects, but he may be overseeing larger projects.
        If I do get the job offer, I’m considering asking if I could chat with another woman before I accepted. The recruiter has been very open about the process and I think I could be candid with her. One of the interviews was with a mid-manager woman and I really wanted to ask her about her experiences at the company as a woman in a man’s field, but I chickened out. She had overall positive things to say about the company and her teammates so I didn’t think I needed to prod further.

        1. RC Rascal*

          One thing to keep in mind : if Guy is a senior type manager he may end up moving on up another role sooner rather than later as part of his career progression. This tends to happen with arrogant jerks at a more senior level.

    2. Cat Tree*

      Do you already have a job that you like reasonably well? I’d be really hesitant to accept that offer. If he’s there and allowed to act like that, that says a lot about the company. I think you need to go into expecting to meet others like him. Even though they will be in the minority, it only takes one that you interact with routinely to make your work day miserable. So with that framing and also understanding that there are reasons you are looking to leave your current job, I think you have to weigh whether working with someone like that guy is a better or worse situation than the one you’re currently in.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I’m trying to leave a misogynistic boss at a misogynistic company. So I definitely don’t want to jump into the same situation, but I currently have to tolerate my boss on a daily basis, and I would likely only have passing interactions with New Job Jerky Guy. Four of my other interviews were with men and they all were great conversations.

    3. 1234*

      Is there any chance Jackass Interviewer was purposely doing that just to “test” how the candidates respond?

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I thought that for a sec, but if that was the game, then I wouldn’t want to work there anyway.
        During the interview, I considered that the guy was distracted or busy and was just being off. But when I reflected on the conversation, he was responding to everything I said with a confrontational remark. That makes me think that it’s ingrained into his personality and not just a distracted accident.

        1. 1234*

          I once interviewed with a guy like that who would be my Grandboss. I got an offer and took it because it was a “dream job” at the time and I think he was impressed that I didn’t seem fazed by his approach to interviewing.

          Turns out this guy had the reputation of “not providing people with information they needed to do their jobs because that’s how it was when he was paying his dues” which frustrated his direct reports [my bosses] as well. When I had to work with directly him, I got feedback such as “This is not how I would have done it.” and I would go “OK what needs to be changed?” only to be ignored. (The way I had “done it” was the same way my direct manager “did it”)

          But throughout the years, people have seen that he has “made strides” to be more collaborative and he did eventually get nicer.

        2. linger*

          Maybe Asshole Guy had a favourite applicant, and was being assholey to everyone else? In which case his assholery may or may not persist when interacting with the eventual successful hire. Certainly still a red flag for the individual, but not necessarily for the workplace.

    4. PollyQ*

      It’s possible, though I don’t know how likely, that Mr. Gaslighter was being especially obnoxious as part of his interviewing strategy — sort of a “stress test” — and that he wouldn’t be that bad when he was working. If that’s the case, then you may have done just fine in his eyes and may still be in the running. That said, I think it’s a pretty crappy strategy, and ignores the fact that interviewing is a two-way process, and that employers are supposed to be making themselves look appealing to candidates, too.

    2. MissGirl*

      Yes! I couldn’t believe that level of pettiness especially making sure the pennies were covered in grease. His response was so glassbowl, maybe I did, maybe I didn’t.

    3. Ari*

      I was checking in just to see the conversation about this!

      So many people on here write in agonizing about if x, y, or z is “enough” to leave a job over, but I bet this guy has NO problems second guessing that decision, huh???

    4. PollyQ*

      Yes, what a f*ckwad. They’re claiming it’s helped their business, but I think that’s just a plain old lie. I sure as hell wouldn’t bring my car to place with an owner like that.

      1. I'm just here for the cats*

        Exactly! If he treats his employees like that how is he going to treat a customer?
        I originally saw this posted on Facebook so I don’t know if it’s there or was in one of the articles (there’s a bunch floating around) but someone made the comment that if the pennies are coated in breaker fluid couldn’t the former employee call the EPA for dumping hazardous materials onto their property.

        1. tangerineRose*

          ” If he treats his employees like that how is he going to treat a customer?” Yep.

    5. Natalie*

      I really wish the Times reporter had asked the Georgia DOL what they think about this. Just because it doesn’t violate federal labor law doesn’t mean it’s perfectly fine.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Since the currency is not negotiable (usable) in the state it is in, how can this NOT be a failure to pay their employee?

      If I went in and paid for car repair with coins from my cat’s litter box I bet there would be h3ll to pay- I’d be charged with theft of services and a bunch of other things. (Eh, I was inquiring about a coupon at a grocery store and they said they would have me arrested just for inquiring. smh. But they can let kids and pets sit in hot cars and that’s okay. Disgusting.)

      Looks to me like the employee was right on target when he quit that job. As a consumer I’d have to wonder if this employer does not know the proper procedure for paying employees their earned wages, how can I be sure they know the proper procedure to correctly fix my car?

  35. Willow*

    I’m really sad after the last couple of weeks, because I’m coming to realize that I can’t stay in my job if I want to stay sane. I really love what I do, but management is just awful. This week I was reamed out for not lying to the CEO (I was caught offguard whan asked about something and told the truth–apparently I should have hedged and covered up that my department dropped the ball on something). And then a big boss said that they couldn’t see what supporting non-white employees looked like other than “not saying racist things to them.” And after years of doing the job of multiple people, it looks like they’re going to add yet another departing-employee’s responsibilities on to me. I am so tired.

    1. PolarVortex*

      You ever see that thing about how the way to keep a frog from jumping out of a pot is to slowly warm the water so they don’t realize they’re being cooked?

      That’s what life is like in a toxic workplace (it’s also a great parallel for depression too). You’re currently in a pot of water that’s way too hot, and you need to jump.

      Just think what that cool water will feel like once you’re out and you’ll be wondering why you stayed in that boiling pot for so long.

      1. Willow*

        I have this habit of staying in jobs with toxic management because the actual job is really fun and interesting. Unfortunately I think the toxic management is a trait of this profession as a whole, which really sucks.

        1. PolarVortex*

          Ah that sucks. I feel you though, I have the habit of staying with places because I love my work/my peoples I manage too.

          I do hope you’re able to find that needle in a haystack in your situation with a non-toxic workplace.

        2. MissGirl*

          There are great jobs working with fair and kind people out there. One of them is waiting for you to apply.

    2. ferrina*

      Hugs! I hear that! It’s so hard when there are parts you truly love, but the bad parts are worse. I’ve mourned jobs even as I was applying to new ones.
      PolarVortex’s frog in a pot comparison is right on. I’m glad you’ve decided to move on and wish you luck in your job search!

    3. Hawkeye is in the details*

      Willow, I’ve been there. Recently. I loved the work and the people of my department, but the top-down structure of the organization was a hot mess. Projects were added and expected to be completed within 24 hours, but the logistics hadn’t even been fully realized. Poor management across the org left us with far too many poor performers. Expectations were way too high for us high performers.

      I left at the end of January. My new company is amazing. Kind and reasonable, with better pay and benefits, and a culture that treats people as human.

      Start looking. It took me a while to find the right fit, but it’s so worth it.

      1. Dramamethis*

        Hawkeye, I could have written this verbatim, right down to the “left at the end of January.”

        There’s a lot of toxic narcissists out there for sure.

        Willow, don’t give up!!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Time will be kind, Willow. Things will happen to help balance this out- you can get to a better place and find new aspects to life. It doesn’t have to be this hard and it probably won’t be this hard ever again.

  36. PolarVortex*

    So I’ve been stuck in my current position for awhile, but it’s being phased out so I need to shift elsewhere – which I am 100% fine with. However my two options are as follows:

    1) Apply for a position that people want me in, is interesting, and while they say is a lateral move, (and I’d retain my current paycheck) is technically a pay grade below my current one. This makes me nervous for long term growth as any promotion would send me back to my current pay grade (which I am at the top limit of).

    2) Roll the dice and see what other positions come up and apply for them (internal and external to my company)

    I feel like between the recession and the pandemic my career keeps getting set back time and time again. I’m getting a little sick of being behind and I want a career path forward, and I’m terrified that 1 will hold me back long term. (Short term it’ll have me working with some new teams on some interesting projects so if I knew I was going to take it for a year or two and then shift elsewhere I’d feel differently.)

    1. ferrina*

      How much do you need the paycheck? That definitely weighs in with factor 2. If you are considering being between jobs, assume it may take twice as long is today’s environment than it would have a couple years ago.

      I’m wondering about Option 1. Why would a lateral move set back your career? And why couldn’t you take the lateral while also applying to other jobs. If anyone asks, you can say that you took your lateral because your current position was being phased out but you’re really excited to do XYZ

      1. PolarVortex*

        Well, I wouldn’t leave my job without something lined up, but the powers that be expect me to find something internal sooner rather than later.

        But the reason why I’m concerned with lateral is if I take this job, which is a paygrade down but on a different ladder – think I’m shifting from Teapot Analytics (T3 paygrade) to Teapot Lead (T2 paygrade) – if I go up that career ladder, the promotion to Senior Teapot Lead (T3) is the same level as my job in Teapot Analytics. Also if I apply for positions internal to my company after taking the Teapot Lead job, they don’t like people jumping two paygrades, so if I drop down to the lower paygrade (even if I’m paid higher than it) they won’t want me to jump the paygrade I had already been in.

  37. blossom*

    How do I get over the feeling that I’ve failed in my professional career?

    I graduated with my BA in 2015, and went straight to get my Master’s in a niche nonprofit field (graduated in 2017). Since then, I fumbled around in several FT entry level roles within my niche nonprofit industry, and eventually realized that the field was a really bad fit for me. During the pandemic, I was furloughed and used that time to do a bootcamp course, which landed me an entry level role in digital marketing. The new role I’m in is usually filled by recent college grads, so when I entered the company, many of my colleagues just assumed that I am a fresh grad as well. I actually don’t mind this misconception, because for all intents and purposes, my knowledge of the digital marketing field is equivalent to that of a fresh grad, but a senior leader on my team introduced me someone “who is in her first very full time job” at an all-staff meeting the other day. This stung a bit, as I felt like all of my previous years of hard work were basically ignored because they were in a different field.

    In general, I look around my peers who graduated around the same time as me, and I see that everyone has progressed much further than I have in my career. I am basically still in an entry level role while all of my peers are in manager (and some, in director-level) roles. How do I get over this feeling that I’m immensely behind and that I am a failure professional?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Don’t compare yourself to people who found their field earlier than you did. You’re not supposed to be on the same timeline as them.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I’ve been in the same situation, but I had feelings of jealousy more than feeling like I had failed. I didn’t get a degree until recently, but I have been working for 25 years. I was putting in years of work and experience and it stung everytime a new grad was hired into a role above me. I felt like I would never be recognized.
      So I got a new job. And it was the same way. So I got another job. And then I got another job, and that was the job where I was treated with respect and I had managers that recognized my skills and experience!
      My advice is to gain experience from your job and then make a switch in a year or two.
      But honestly, you are still really early in your career. Some people will get the big breaks and land that manager role right out of school, but you are in the boat with the 95% of the rest of us. You will get there, I did.

    3. Dust Bunny*

      You’re only a couple of years out, really. Give it a few more years and see where you land–not everyone who graduated with you will keep progressing on the same trajectory and you’re bound to catch up with some of them.

      Also: It’s pretty normal to have a bit of a setback when you change fields. It’s not personal, it’s just a thing because you are at least partially starting over.

    4. kicking_k*

      Not everyone progresses at the same rate, or smoothly! If you’d asked me 18 months ago, I might have felt the same. Personal circumstances had dictated that I was working at a job where my experience was appreciated and the working conditions were great but there was no possibility of progression or getting experience I could build on – and I was there five years. I had repeatedly failed to get jobs with better prospects. Then I heard through a personal contact about a better job, closer to home, better paid – and I got it, and now I feel I’m back on track, and much more where I hoped I’d be by now.

      I’d take what training opportunities you can, and let your manager/mentor know you’d like more. They might not be able to provide it, but they may be able to advise on what you’d need to be a suitable candidate in future. Mine did.

    5. MissGirl*

      I went back to school at 34 to get an MBA and started over in data analytics. My current manager is ten years younger than I am. BUT I am now making twice what I was making at my previous job, I have job security, and a career trajectory. I do get super bummed that I could’ve been here ten years ago but I can only focus on my future. When I think of the past, it freaks me out to no end. I fill my current life with the things I missed.

    6. Spearmint*

      I know it’s cliche, but everyone has their own career path and it’s best to try not to directly compare your path to others’.

      It’s very common to switch careers, and many do so successfully when they’re far older than you. And you had a good reason to switch careers: you were unhappy. Would you rather be a manager in field that makes you miserable? If not, then I’d say switching careers to something better is a success in its own right.

      And you do have a leg up over recent grads, but it will be more in soft skills than shed skills. But those matter, and if you’re at a good employer they’ll benefit your career.

      I get the lack of recognition for your past experiences sucks. Maybe try to subtly work your previous experience into conversation more? And definitely correct people who explicitly say you’re a recent grad or this is your first professional job.

    7. The Real Persephone Mongoose*

      Agree with Dust Bunny. You are only a couple of years out. I know several people including myself who were still trying to find their place in the corporate world. I was 31 before I landed the job that would ultimately define what I did for a living. My daughter was 31. Brother was closer to 35. Sometimes, it takes a few years of ‘entry level’ wandering before you find the one role that works for you. Yes, there are people who get right into a field right out of university and seem to fast track their careers. I’m willing to bet that you are only seeing those people because you don’t really know where people are in their career track same as they don’t know exactly where you are in yours. Hence the comment by the senior leader supposing you were starting your first post education position.

    8. pieces_of_flair*

      You haven’t failed! You’re only a few years into your work life and you’re gainfully employed in a field you want to be in. Not everyone can say that. I graduated 18 years ago and it’s only in the past 5 or so years that I’ve gotten established in my long-term career. Once I figured out where I wanted to go, I got there more quickly than I expected! Career trajectories are rarely a linear progression. I don’t regret the years I spent in random jobs outside my current field (or the useless Master’s degree I got) because I learned a lot from those experiences.

    9. Hare under the moon with a silver spoon*

      I think you’re really smart and brave – you understood one field wasn’t for you and took the brave decision to. trust yourself and do something else – that’s priceless in itself and something to be proud of. Its nice the people you graduated at the same time with have got what appears from the outside to be decent jobs but honestly thats can often be down as much inertia and playing safe as anything else – Your future self will thank you for trying something new.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      How do I get over this feeling that I’m immensely behind and that I am a failure professional?

      Balance things out by looking at the people who think you got it going on and you have your stuff together.

      There will always be people ahead of you and people behind you. Always. And if you are even-handed with your own self you can probably point to times in your past where you were ahead of others. If you read here, you will find that even today you are ahead of others.

      Insist on fairness to your own self.

    11. Incessant Owlbears*

      Meanwhile, it’s very possible that your peers are miserable as managers in fields that aren’t the best fit for them, and would be envious of you! Comparison is the thief of joy.

    12. Small houseplant*

      Whenever I feel like I’m not in the right spot or compare too much with others I remind myself that life isn’t a race. If it were, what would the finish line be, death? There’s no one set path or right way. Lots of people’s careers take a wandering path.

  38. Rusty Shackelford*

    I use surveys to collect information from clients/users, and I’m finding that often, when I use an open-ended question asking for additional comments, people feel compelled to answer even when they have nothing to add. Examples of questions I’ve used include:

    Additional comments
    Do you have any additional comments about our teapots?
    Please share any additional comments or concerns

    And for some reason, I get a lot of answers saying “no” or “none” or “n/a” or even just a period, as if people thought the question required an answer (it didn’t) and they just had to type something to get past it.

    What am I doing wrong? Or is this just a thing people do and I should just ignore it?

    1. Eleanor Knope*

      I’m not sure if this is considered a best practice, but I’ve added (Optional) to the end of questions like that where I truly didn’t care if people answered or not. “Do you have any additional comments about the meeting? (Optional).” And yet, people will still answer it with “no” or “nothing”! I think it’s just something people do.

      1. boo bot*

        I do it, and I don’t think I have a good explanation why. More often I’ll write something like, “Nope, it was great!” or “Nothing, thanks!” but I’m still writing something when I’ve got nothing to say.

        I think it might just be so whoever reads it doesn’t feel like I’m ignoring their question.

          1. Esmeralda*

            YOU know that, but the people answering don’t. Which I’m sure you know…

            Do the non-answer answers slow down or mess up your data collection in a substantial way? You could probably filter them out, if you don’t want to waste time reading them — you know what a typical non-answer answer looks like, so…

          2. t*

            Esmeralda is right, though. When I am taking a survey, and am presented with what you describe, I’ll put “n/a” if it applies so that you know I saw the question.

            Because unless I do so, you don’t really know whether I actually read the question.

            So accept it for what it is: a courtesy on the part of the responder. Besides, if you’re noticing similar patterns among survey takers that you find lacking, maybe your survey design is the problem.

      2. Girasol*

        Yes, this! Some forms require an entry in every blank and will put up an error message if one is skipped, and then dump all the data on the page, forcing the user to re-enter everything from the beginning. So it’s a good idea to mark questions “optional” if they are, not because you’re doing it wrong, but because so many other survey writers do it wrong.

    2. lizw*

      I would ignore.
      1. It’s a quality assurance thing for many people and
      2. Many surveys will not allow you to proceed without entering “something” in the field.

      BTB: Your first example question is literally a yes/no response. If you are looking for more specific answers, you may need to tailor some questions around those topics:
      Do you have any additional comments about our teapots? If yes, please share any additional comments or concerns:___________

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Good point about the yes/no response… I should expect a few people to take that literally and feel compelled to answer!

    3. Reba*

      I think you could add OPTIONAL but it’s just a thing people do.

      I mean, have you noticed how many people “answer” the user-supplied questions about items on shopping websites with “I don’t know, sorry” ?

      Some people, if there is a box, will treat it as something they have to fill.

    4. Bear Shark*

      It’s just a thing people do because so many surveys require that you fill in open-ended questions. They’re probably just trying to save time wasted on other surveys when you submit and it tells you that you have to answer all the questions to get past it.

    5. katz*

      Check if the comments field is marked required in the form set-up/coding. Our local health department COVID vaccine sign-up has a “Comments (Optional)” field at the end. If you leave it blank, it tells you the field is required. *eyeroll*

    6. Mr. Cajun2core*

      First make 100% sure that it is optional.

      Second, I think what Eleanor Knope stated was an excellent idea.

    7. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I might add “Optional” after the question, but it’s just a thing people do. As long as you’re surveying humans, it’s just par for the course.

    8. Dust Bunny*

      Yeah, make it clear that it’s optional. A lot of surveys don’t let you move on without answering.

    9. OtterB*

      It’s just a thing people do. Just weed those answers out before you do anything with the open-ended data. I put that kind of question at the end of surveys because (a) sometimes our survey design missed the boat and failed to ask about something important, in which case we’ll see it when multiple people put it in the comments, and (b) it’s a good way to wrap up and make sure people feel heard.

      Somebody else commented on the fact that “Do you have any additional comments about our teapots?” is technically a yes/no question. I had a mentor who felt strongly about this, so I tend to lean toward your second framing, but I think people generally understand the intent either way.

    10. Time for Tea*

      Fellow survey professional here (10+ years experience).

      First, check the UI on your survey. Do respondents know when a question is optional or not? Is it predictable which questions are required? Best practice is to have all long-form open ended responses optional (though that’s not always possible).

      If the UI is good, you can definitely use “Optional-” to start the question. Also make clear that you’re just asking for additional thoughts . If your survey is a one-pager, “Additional comments” is fine, but for longer surveys, “Do you have any additional comments about our teapots?” is better. Or “Optional: Please share any other comments or thoughts that you have on our teapots”. Sentence instructions are more likely to get glossed over than questions (some people feel compelled to respond to questions, but not on if given instructions, because instructions are less conversational).

      There will always be someone that says “No” or “N/A” or “.” That’s normal.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        All of the open-ended questions are optional. Some of them are just standard “we already gave you a 1-5 rating scale, is there anything else you want to add” kinds of questions, and some of them are “we REALLY want to give you the opportunity to provide this information, so if none of our carefully worded questions accurately encompasses your experience, PLEASE let us know, in as much detail as you can stand to provide.”

    11. Ari*

      Firstly, I think it’s OK to just ignore, the people filling the survey probably will never give the answers as much thought as you do.

      Secondly, if you were interested in eliminating the knee-jerk have-to-complete-every-field responses, could you “hide” the text box behind a link or expansion arrow? “If you have additional comments, you can leave them /here/” and clicking that link just expands to show the text box? Oh, or a radio button for yes and no, and if yes, the text box appears, if no, no text box appears.

    12. Maggie*

      Thats just what people do on surveys haha. I work with surveys all day every day. Lets say I sell t-shirts. I’ll get a couple surveys a week that say things like “Tshirt” or “Bought t-shirt on the website” or “shirt”

    13. Not So NewReader*

      So why do you want to prevent them from saying “none” or “n/a”?

      I am trying to figure out why it’s a problem if they put these answers in.

  39. Shawn*

    Long story short, but I want to leave my job because the people there are absolutely horrible in all the ways. I’m trying to think of neutral reasons for wanting to leave to give to prospective employers (the jobs I’m applying to are in different industries, but involve similar skills/responsibilities). Are either of these reasons reasonable? Is one better?:

    1) I’d like a more traditional workweek. I currently have off on one weekday and one weekend day, and they can’t be consecutive, so I haven’t had off for more than one day at a time since I started. It feels like I never get a break because I’m always right back to work the next day.

    2) I don’t feel good about the industry. It’s expensive stuff that seems like a rip off to me, and I feel like customers are being taken advantage of. It’s the kind of thing where I took the job because I needed a job but had no actual interest in it. I’d rather work somewhere I can feel good about.

    1. kicking_k*

      I like the second one but would frame it more as “I like your company’s mission and I’d like to work toward something bigger,” rather than anything that sounds critical of your current/former employers.

    2. PX*

      When wanting to leave, less is more. Both your answers to me are too much information, and your second one is definitely too detailed and critical. This is where generic is your friend: “I’m looking for a new challenge/change of environment” – and they key is to transition into why you want THIS job specifically.

      “I’d like a more traditional workweek as my current job has an unusual shift structure. This job appeals to me because it will allow me to use my skills in this exciting new industry of goat shearing which I’ve been interested in ever since reading an article about how goats are much more difficult to shear than sheep”.

    3. Twisted Lion*

      I would try to frame it in the positive and not the negative. Like “Ive felt like I have really reached the point where I have learned and done everything I can in my current position and am looking for ways to grow and learn new things.”

    4. Cat Tree*

      Rather than explaining why you want to leave you current place, try to focus on why you want to go to the new place. I get it, you might be in a position where you’re applying to everything just to get out of your current company. But for every application, there is at least *some* reason you chose to apply other than “isn’t my current job”. So try to articulate what made you interested to apply for that particular position and expand on that.

      1. Reba*

        This!

        Even reason #1, while neutral, is not something that would make me think “Wow this person is really excited to work with me.” Definitely it should be a criteria for you as you look, but I wouldn’t raise it in interviews or letters (unless you need to ask a question about schedule, of course).

        Since you say you’re looking for positions using similar skills in new contexts, that’s a great story to share! “I’m looking to grow and take skills X and Y into the Z sector. I’m excited about the opportunity to _____” — in other words it is focused on where you will be going, not where you have been.

        Good luck!

        1. t*

          >…in other words it is focused on where you will be going, not where you have been.

          Precisely this. Focus on why you are running toward a new position, not on why you’re fleeing your present one.

          And this should be genuine, too. You may run into similar problems in a new role. But there may be those factors in a new job that make enduring those problems more worth your while, like moving to an area that has a lower cost of living, having access to more culture, being geographically nearer to family, a more temperate climate, etc.

  40. Drama Llamas*

    I wrote in about a month ago because my coworker was giving me the cold shoulder because I took a sick day, yet still went for my Covid vaccine. Well, when it was time to get the second dose, my other coworker Fergus was questioning me about it. He then goes, “Oh, right…. You weren’t here that day, but still went for the vaccine.” He then had a smirk on his face and I asked him what he meant. He just smiled and said, “nothing.”

    They do this all the time at my work- sort of a “I know something you don’t know.”

    It’s very frustrating, juvenile, and unprofessional. Do I drop the issue? No one will ever tell me what they meant, so I’ve just given up, but I feel like they’re the ones acting like children.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Someone made a post on the previous thread that suggested “when you say that, it sounds like you think X,” which I think is perfect for this situation. “When you say that, it sounds like you think I was lying about being sick that day.” Just put it right out there, rather than asking what they mean.

      1. Overbooked*

        I think this is perfect too, and I also doubt I’d have the wherewithal to use it in the moment, sadly. Some alternative scripts?
        Alison’s “Thanks!”, as in, “Thanks for remembering that!” “Thanks for pointing that out!”, or just gray-rock “Thanks.”
        Captain Awkward’s “I know, my [thing] is great!” Her context was responding to personal digs, but I can see a version like “I know, our health plan is great!”
        Miss Manners’ fabulous “It’s so kind of you to take an interest.” Period.
        “Sure.” “Okay.” “Uh-huh.” It seems like they enjoy trying to provoke you; be boring.

    2. HigherEdAdminista*

      I don’t blame you for feeling frustrated; it is juvenile and unprofessional.

      There are people out there who have a habit of thinking that they have the whole story of something or that their version is the truth, even when they don’t have the whole picture. It sounds like what is going on here. Maybe they have written a story where you are a villain, secretly trying to get away with using unneeded sick time, while they are the long-suffering, hard-working heroes of their tale.

      Honestly, I would just ignore it as much as possible. I would treat the comments as strange, because they are, but I wouldn’t press them for answers. Treat it as unimportant, but make sure your boss is clued in on your work and your schedule, and just let these two think whatever they want.

    3. Workerbee*

      It may not always be possible, but where you can, don’t engage with the conversation after Fergus drops his little bomb. He is waiting for you to catch it. Let it drop. He can keep his smirk for himself.

      And put him on an information diet. He doesn’t need to know what you do when you’re not at work, vaccine or not!

    4. Not So NewReader*

      When he says “nothing”, close the topic.

      Him: “Nothing”
      You: “Great, then we can move on. We are done with this topic.”

      Or
      Him: “Nothing”
      You: “Good. I am glad it’s all resolved for you now. We can get back to work.”

      Instead of trying to figure out more or even thinking of trying to drag it out of him, just respond to exactly what he has said. “Oh good, this is over, we can move on.”

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

        “Nothing!”
        “Oh ok good…for a minute there I was worried you were being juvenile and unprofessional! Hahaha”

        Not really but I could picture myself saying that…

  41. BR*

    I’d love some feedback on a question – this column has been so helpful!
    I’m a recent PhD graduate who was very lucky to get a job almost immediately at the university I just graduated from. It’s a wonderful position, but is completely unrelated to my field and is also semi-temporary/soft money funded, so I’m still actively job searching in my field (which my boss knows about, and is very supportive of. He’s the best.)

    I currently have a second interview scheduled for a post-doctoral visiting fellowship position which is still somewhat outside of my field, but much closer (i.e. I would be teaching some classes and doing research in my chosen area, but not housed in that department.) They have been delightfully transparent throughout the interview process and let candidates know the salary amount (not range, just one number) and benefits before the first interview round.

    My problem is it’s a huge pay cut — 30% less than what I’m currently making, in a place with a higher cost of living! I don’t know if I would consider taking the job or not at that salary (still weighing other pros and cons), but I’m wondering what folks’ take is on the possibility of negotiating, and how I might best go about it. Is that something I should bring up in the second interview, or wait until a job offer? Has anyone had success in negotiating salary (especially for an academic fellowship-type position) where they announced the official number up front?

    Thank you!

    1. Graciosa*

      The first and most important part of negotiating is knowing your own position and when you will walk away. Figure that out first.

      The reason I say that here is that you seem to be hoping that this really transparent employer which announced the salary for the job didn’t really mean it. I can’t speak to that aspect (although I will say that it’s not reading to me like it’s open, but maybe someone in academia will have a different take) but you’re avoiding the fundamental issue and potentially wasting a lot of people’s time (including yours) by not deciding now whether you would consider this job at this salary.

      If you wouldn’t, you should return the university’s candor in kind. Maybe you ask once – “Is there any flexibility in the compensation?” – and if the answer is no, you either bow out or move forward understanding that this is it.

      But know your own mind first –

    2. ThursdayNext*

      If it’s a postdoc position there probably isn’t any real room for negotiation. The salary bands are set by the college/university/funding agency and that’s that. For my postdoc position, I was able to get some moving costs reimbursed but later I found out that it’s difficult to negotiate post-doc salaries because the university doesn’t like having people with the same title and experience getting paid different salaries [which is a very fair attitude to take]. Maybe you’d get a grand or two (I had a friend at another institution who was able to negotiate for about that much), or maybe you could see if your offered salary matched what national funding agencies (e.g. the NIH) pay postdoc fellows in your city. FWIW, nationally postdoc salaries seem to start around ~$50k/year in the sciences, with some variation for location, but since NIH postdoc fellowships start at ~$50k/year that’s what most institutions try to match.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        If it’s a postdoc position there probably isn’t any real room for negotiation. The salary bands are set by the college/university/funding agency and that’s that.

        Especially if they’re already providing you one number rather than a range.

      2. Reba*

        Agree with this. Most post docs do pay less than what would be considered a reasonable salary for a “real” position, that’s understood and how they are designed. (I think some universities peg the salaries to equivalent permanent positions or levels of experience, but for a lot of programs, the cheaper labor is part of the appeal and why they created the fellowship.)

        I think you could definitely ask about relocation expenses and the possibility of a research or travel budget. But the salary number won’t budge.

      3. AcademiaNut*

        This. For a postdoc, there is generally no room for negotiation. Either the amount is set by the institution and is fixed, or it was obtained via grant money and any increase in salary would need to be applied for in the next round of grant applications (ie, applied for next year to take effect the year after that). Given that they gave you a single value up front, rather than a range, this is a take it or leave it situations.

        Y0u might have some luck getting a bit of money for relocation. Other things to ask about would be set up for computer (will they provide a laptop, for example), and whether they provide funding for conferences. In general, research postdocs pay less than you would get for comparable experience/education in the private sector, so if money in the short term is a major motivator, I’d recommend staying in the private sector.

        1. AcademiaNut*

          FWIW, my first postdoc was on the higher end of STEM postdoc salaries ($50,000 US in 2005, with good health care, yearly conference travel, a bit of relocation (they shipped my stuff, I had to pay my own plane ticket)), but in a high COL area. I was able to live in a nice apartment with a single roommate, have a decent social life, and fly home for Christmas, but it took about half of the 3 year postdoc to pay off the moving costs (furniture, plane ticket, rent deposits etc), and afford a laptop, so things like owning a car or vacations involving hotels weren’t possible for the first two years.

    3. Former academic*

      Postdocs are poorly paid. There’s generally a bit of room to ask for startup costs, travel funds, research funds, but not salary. Postdocs are great if you want to stay in academia but know there’s a financial trade-off of lower salary, job uncertainty, and (usually) no retirement matching. It’s the nature of the system—there’s a whole nother round of dues paying after the PhD. It’s rare to be able to skip that. Doesn’t mean it’s not a good idea, just that you should go into it with eyes open.

      1. ThursdayNext*

        Yes. You should only do a postdoc if you have a plan to leave within 2-3 years, a postdoc advisor that realizes that the goal is to get you out the door within 2-3 year, have longer term goals that require a postdoc (or that you think require a postdoc), and it’s not just a thing you’re doing because your PhD advisor expects you to do.
        If the postdoc gets you closer to your goals (you want to do more research in your field etc) then if may be useful to you but you are highly unlikely to get a salary that’s 30% than what they’re offering.

  42. Nutella Toasty but not in Boston*

    Has anyone gone through the Leadership Challenge and want to share healthy skepticism? I was given the opportunity to go through the workshop and I am a reluctant manager (I really want to get back into an individual contributor role in my next position). There were some fanatics and now I need to report back to my org what I’ve learned. What I’ve learned is that I really don’t want to be a leader. What do I do in the meantime?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Well, are you being asked to report on what you learned *for you* or what you learned that could be helpful for your organization and colleagues? If it’s the latter (which I’m guessing is the intent), highlight key lessons/trainings that they offered, give an objective evaluation of the program: “These aspects seem worthwhile for us and these ones don’t, so overall, I do (or do not) recommend sending more staff to this training.”

      Even if the intent is what you learned for you, you can “misunderstand” and present the above anyways.

  43. KMG*

    I have a new manager who previously was a peer (though has always been senior to me with significantly more experience). It is going well, except I do have one issue and I am not sure whether to raise it and if so, how. When speaking to others–whether they are senior to her or colleagues–she says “we” even if she has been minimally involved. For example, we needed to provide our Dean an update on something that I have been spending many hours working on, and she kept saying “we” when she referred to work I had done.

    She also has also used “we” to refer to major initiatives that my team and I did a few years prior to her being involved with our department. (E.g. “Yes, we tried xyz a few years ago. It was fairly successful, but the attendance wasn’t as high as we would have liked.” When she was managing her previous department and was not involved in the initiative.)

    I know she isn’t trying to do it to take credit for something she didn’t do, but it still irks me. With my team, I try very hard to always give credit where credit is due. I’ll say “we” when referring to my team, but if a specific individual did the bulk of the work, I always mention that. It concerns me since I feel like she is saying “we” with our Dean often and our Dean doesn’t know what my department does vs. what my boss does. It also makes me less likely to want to update her unless I am in front of others so she won’t inadvertently take credit for our work. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      I think this is perfectly ordinary phrasing for a manager to use “we” when referring to work that anyone on the team did. It might be nicer for her to point out who did the work “KMG put together this report . . .” rather than “we put together this report . . .” but hey, I’ve had enough bosses claim “I put together this report . . .” that her use of “we” isn’t giving me any pause at all.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        I agree. I doubt your Dean thinks she means “I did this” when she said “we did this.” In context, it seems obvious that she’s referring to the department. I also don’t think it’s odd that she uses “we” when referring to things that happened when she wasn’t on the team. I’d do the same thing, because it’s something the team did, and she’s on the team now. What other wording would she use? “They?”

    2. OtterB*

      Agree, I don’t think this is odd. If you’re concerned that the Dean doesn’t know enough about what your department does, then I would raise that as a separate issue of how to increase your visibility.

      1. KMG*

        Thanks, all. This is helpful. Upon reading, I guess I’m realizing that it never bothers me when she says it about overall team projects. It more bothers me when she says “KMG and I have been working on this all week. We’ve been spending tons of time on it.” When it’s been just me doing it. Or when she has referred to past work of my department as something “we” did when she didn’t have involvement. Glad to have everyone’s comments though as it helps give me perspective.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          It more bothers me when she says “KMG and I have been working on this all week. We’ve been spending tons of time on it.” When it’s been just me doing it.

          Okay, that’s very different. If she’s naming names, rather than referring to an entire department, then she *is* (to me) claiming to have been personally involved in the work.

        2. LadyByTheLake*

          “KMG and I have been working on this” is legit annoying because now she is specifically claiming that SHE’S been working on it, not the generalized team.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          If she is taking work off of you so you can do this work, then it might feel to her that she is working on the project also. Even if it just to keep you freed up and working on it.

          “We” does indicate a willingness to show that others are working on things. I would be way more concerned if she used “I” instead.

          I do see a point to be had with wanting your own name to be used. “OP and I, blah, blah, blah.” People like hearing their names used. I know I do.

        4. LQ*

          I think this is a little different if they are calling people out specifically. But it’s possible your boss is doing things related to the project that you may never see. Things I’ve done this week that my team wouldn’t know I did on their projects: dug through project files to find information to write up notes for senior leadership meeting so as to not bug or delay their work by making them stop to do it themselves and then rewrite it for tone later anyway (not because they are bad, just they don’t know what tone to take with that group at this point), put together a proposal to extend out the timeline because the team wasn’t going to meet the deadline and that required formal approval and additional funding, spent the whole *-$*# week fighting (or calmly explaining repeatedly) another manager about how we were NOT going to change the scope on this project. All of which would be working on projects but is unseen by folks who are working on the project as well. And I can see that someone might be aggravated by that, but I’m also not going to say that I spent the week fighting with Jerry because he wanted to blow up scope and finally bested in him an arm wrestling contest to not have to do it.

          I’m not saying that there’s not a problem, I’m guessing there’s another problem underlying this that is the reason this isn’t sitting well with you and that’s the problem to look at.

    3. LQ*

      Are you seeing signs that you or others are your team are not being recognized when appropriate? This feels like a different underlying issue of not feeling recognized or supported that’s going on because this is such a common thing for someone to say about a team. Is your boss saying an individual when it’s something that went wrong only? If your boss is just always using we and you and your team are getting the recognition that is appropriate then I think you’re maybe just a little tense over this pretty normal linguistic convention, it’s not like she’s saying “I did it,” chances are good that everyone assumes it’s the team, which is fine. If you aren’t being recognized, then focus on that and this is a symptom of that.

      I think it’s really dangerous to stop updating your boss. Especially since this isn’t like she’s personally taking credit for all the work, I think that no longer reporting to your boss on the work you are doing unless you’re in front of others is a pretty hostile move and would be very thoughtful before implementing that.

    4. 1234*

      At OldJob, we were taught to say “we” to clients regardless of who did what. It’s a subtle way of showing a united front. Like your new boss backs up all of the work you all did. I don’t think she is doing it in a way where it is intended to cause harm, unless she has actively taken credit for something the whole team does.

      Also, in a lot of job, when the team succeeds, the manager is also seen as the successful one because the team succeeded under their leadership. The opposite is also true, if the team fails, it’s the manager’s “fault” to some degree.

    5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Your team’s output (including yours) ‘is’ your manager’s output. I think she is just speaking collectively on behalf of the Llama department by saying “we tried this grooming technique but it didn’t work” etc.

      On a broader level a lot of people (including myself) talk about the company as a whole as “we” even if the person saying it wasn’t directly involved. e.g. I might say something like “yeah we tried an online booking service for llama grooming appointments and the pilot clients liked it but ultimately it cost too much” or whatever, even if I had no involvement in that project.

  44. NFP Board Volunteer Wannabe*

    Are professional profiles still a thing on your resume? I need to update my resume for a NFP board position and I haven’t looked at my resume in years and I’m questioning the value of a professional profile. Thoughts?

    2. SunnySideUp*

      Yup, having a profile on top of your resume is still a thing. I think they’re useful for hiring managers because it highlights the most important stuff right at the top. And they’re loads better than objectives!
      Alison has some suggestions on them in her posts about writing resumes. But they’re definitely optional, so if yours isn’t doing anything for you, you can leave it out.

    3. Mental Lentil*

      I zoom right past them when reviewing resumes. They tell me absolutely nothing about you as a potential hire. Most of them are fluffy and vague (i.e., “purpose-driven professional”) or filled with jargon and the latest crazy trend to add to your resume.

      Show me what you’ve accomplished in your work history. I know what this job entails, and I’m looking for someone who’s does something similar in the past or has transferable skills.

    4. nep*

      I still have a summary at the top of my resume–usually bullet points.
      I think can be helpful if written well with good concrete information–not BS words like ‘results-driven,’ ‘detail-oriented’…
      (I’m now thinking that ‘go-to person for XY’ is a bad one too…and I’ve used that on recent resumes. Time to switch.)

  45. Solitary squirrel*

    I am struggling a bit with isolation. I’m mostly not homeworking, because my job requires me to use onsite resources most of the time, but almost everyone else is, so I’m in a nearly empty building. I’m the only one who does my job. With no humans to rub against I’m finding it surprisingly hard to stay on task and not reach for my smartphone to feel less lonely. I can’t switch the phone off altogether or leave it home as I am the emergency contact for a sick dependent. (I am also in the process of seeking an ADHD diagnosis, but I cannot speed it up; it’s likely to be months, and I don’t want to tell my colleagues till it’s definite, if then.)

    I set up more frequent check-ins with my boss (weekly) and she’s suggested I use Teams chat to connect with colleagues, but as I only started here after the pandemic was well underway, o don’t know anyone that well and can never think of much to say (again, my work doesn’t affect theirs).

    I’ve been thinking about seeking accountability partners (there are apps that provide these) but given that my work is largely confidential and moves around the building, I’m not sure being videolinked to someone completely unrelated would be practical or considered risk free. Has anyone used this? Did it help?

    1. Web Crawler*

      Does your work have a teams channel for socializing? If so, I’d use it for open-ended questions like “what shows have you been watching?”. For me, that’s easier than reaching out to individual people when I have nothing to say.

      1. Solitary squirrel*

        We don’t have an all-employees one. There’s one for the team I am nominally on, but it only has five people on it (including me) and I’ve posted things a few times that nobody has responded to. We have a couple of regular videocall chat sessionswhich are easier but feel more like time out than working alongside people.

        I could still do that – ask what people are doing at the weekend or whatever. Or what shows they watch.

        1. OtterB*

          I think you could explicitly say to your team that since you started after the pandemic you feel like you’re missing the opportunity to get to know them and would appreciate a chance to chat. That makes it clearer that you’re not just randomly babbling. You could ask a question like “How did you get into this line of work?” or “What’s your favorite thing about the job?” Or, to go non-work-related, questions like Who’s the most famous person you ever met? or What’s your cooking specialty?

          1. Solitary squirrel*

            I’ll have to ponder a bit harder about things to say as when I think about it, I do know the answers to most of those questions! Maybe I know them better than I thought and am just rusty at small talk.

        2. Reba*

          Oof, yeah no responses to your posts is pretty demoralizing! I recently agitated to get my (much larger) team to start a chit chat channel and it’s slow going there too.

          My organization has been doing a coffee break thing where they actually match 4 random people for a virtual meet up — I haven’t done it but lots of folks like it.

          Do you think if you reached out to people and specifically said, I’d like to have the chance to just socially chat for a while and get to know you a bit better, some people would be open to that?

          1. Solitary squirrel*

            Yes! I think they’re all just busy and probably not looking at Teams except for meetings, not snubbing me directly, but the chat thing has plainly not taken off like a rocket.

            Thinking about this, I’m not 100% sure I want more _socialising_ as such, just a sense that the rest of the dept. is there and working away. Which… they’re not (well, theyre working but not present). I had the same problem in post-grad when working on my own.

            Maybe I could find someone to check in with to say “I’m going to do this and this today, how about you?” Thing is they’ve all worked here for years and I get the impression they don’t struggle with motivation/focus. But how would I know? I haven’t exactly made it public that I do, because I don’t want to seem unprofessional.

            Food for thought.

    2. Web Crawler*

      Edit: my gut says not to be video-linked to an external person if your work is confidential. My work explicitly prohibits this

    3. PolarVortex*

      I echo the social chat thing. My company has chats for people who want to talk about food/pets/kids/knitting/etc. You can find some connections easily that way.

      But for my own ADHD stuff, I’ve really benefitted from WFH because I’m able to have continual noise. I’m uncertain if your work could allow it but is there some kind of noise you can have going while you work? Music, podcasts, etc. I often have podcasts or the tv on in the background, I actually couldn’t tell you what people are talking about in them half the time, I just need the noise for my brain to partially focus on so the rest of me can actually focus.

      1. Solitary squirrel*

        Noise doesn’t work well for me :( If it has meaning (podcasts, music with lyrics) I’m afraid I just listen to it instead of concentrating on work. I have wondered about the “office soundtracks” which replicate normal office background noise but haven’t really looked into it (I feel like knowing it’s fake might make it not work? But perhaps I shouldn’t knock it before I try it!)

          1. Solitary squirrel*

            I shall give it a go. I’d half-forgotten about it until noise was mentioned.

        2. ferrina*

          I was also going to say background noise. I’m ADHD, and these are some tricks that help me focus:

          I have certain CDs that are my Work CDs. When I turn it on, I start focusing. Once my (also ADHD) brain associates a certain type of music with working, it will automatically go in to work mode as soon as it hears the first few bars.

          Having structured starts and structured breaks. For structured starts- have a routine when you start to go in to work mode. When you start to drift out of work mode, do a structured “out of work mode” routine, then go back to your structured start routine before next work session. Build in social breaks- virtual coffee with work friends can be really refershing.

          Walking around the block. WFH can lead to a lot more sitting, and ADHD brains in particular can focus better when they also have physical exercise. One study showed that after physical exercise, the brain will show increased focus for the next 3 to 4 hours.

          Good luck!

          1. PolarVortex*

            Ha I’ve done that with sleep CDs, Smashing Pumpkins have managed to zonk me out since 2005.

            1. ferrina*

              Haha! Yes! I’ve done the sleep CD version as well. I used Enya for sleep, Breaking Benjamin for working. Though now I have trouble rocking out to BB- As soon as I hear the guitar, my mind jumps to spreadsheets.

          2. Solitary squirrel*

            Maybe it would help to be more structured. My work is unpredictable, which is generally a good thing (I don’t get bored with repetition) but it does mean there’s not a natural routine there already.

            I used to set reminders on my phone a lot (to take breaks, switch tasks etc) but after a time I tended to start ignoring/turning them off… Same with written reminders. Sometimes I wonder how I have got this far when I keep undermining myself! But I gather it’s not unusual for ADHDers to find themselves screening out or discounting “notes to self”.

            1. ferrina*

              Truth. I actually switch my method every 3-6 months. It keeps it fresh.
              I’ve then had coworkers asking me how I stay so organized while I take on so many projects! I have to tell them “don’t do what I do. It’s highly personalized and some of it is really not recommended for anyone else, but it works for me.”

        3. PollyQ*

          Give it a try! There are free ones on Youtube, plus other ambient environments, e.g. coffee shops. I also find I can’t listen to a podcast and concentrate on work, but maybe instrumental music might work for you. For whatever reason, most classical stations only rarely play any kind of vocal music.

          1. Solitary squirrel*

            I think I may either have to stick with non-music or pick my station carefully. I used to play in an orchestra when I was younger and anything too familiar tends to draw me in (and away from work). Instrumental is definitely better than vocal though!

            I heard a tip that video game music is supposed to be designed to keep you alert/on task, and I haven’t been much of a gamer for 20 years so it would be unlikely to be overfamiliar…

            Coffee shop ambience is interesting too as an idea. I haven’t heard of that but I’ve always found it relatively easy to concentrate in real coffee shops…

            Thank you!

        4. PolarVortex*

          There’s white noise apps too, things that you can customize to work for you for mediation and other sorts of situations. I’ve used those as well, currently have one set up that sounds like a campground since I find it helpful when I need something. (I use RelaxMedlodies.)

          Another option would be non-vocal music. There’s a ton out there in every genre. My default is either ChilledCow for lofi or ThePrimeCronus for instrumental music mixes in various styles. But you could also just listen to all of Hans Zimmer’s or John William’s soundtracks.

          Just keep trying until you find something that works for you. And it may not work for you 100% of the time, but that’s why I have all these suggestions. One works better when I’m frustrated, one works better when it’s a real bad attention day, one works better when I’m so irritated I might lose my mind…

          1. Solitary squirrel*

            Thanks for the pointers – I shall look at those. You’re so right that this probably isn’t a one-solution problem.

            I’m so grateful to all the people who have made suggestions.

    4. All Het Up About It*

      I agree with the other commenters regarding their suggestions.

      One I’ll add is something I used in a position in the past where it was super easy for me to get bored and pickup my phone. Based on an article I read that most people really only worked 45-50 minutes out of an hour at the office, I would set a timer for 45-50 minutes and that was work time. Then I’d allow myself 10-15 minutes of phone time. I’d purposefully set the timer on my phone, so if I did go to pick it up, that ticking clock would remind me: No, work time. You could obviously set work time for longer blocks if needed! And you could use your 15 minutes to chat to teammates, or just take a walk around the empty building as well.

      1. Reba*

        Yes, was going to suggest the Pomodoro method, which is basically this!

        You can start small (10 or 15 minute blocks) and work up to great stretches of concentrated work.

      2. Solitary squirrel*

        My boss actually said something about that when I was working from home: that it was OK to take a break to chat to my family, because I would be spending some of the time touching base with colleagues if we were all in the office. This was before I came back and they didn’t.

        I guess I should maybe combine your suggestion with the one above about structuring the day – and tell myself that I’m either working or on a break, not working but not 100%, or taking an ill-defined pause and thinking that I _ought_ to be working.

        1. Solitary squirrel*

          Erk, that was unclear. I meant I should draw a clearer line between working time and breaks and be doing one or the other.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      May not work for you but friends have brought their dogs to work, for companionship but also for feeling a little safer.

      1. Solitary squirrel*

        Well, that’s a creative solution… I’m horribly allergic, and the kind of work I do wouldn’t ever be animal-friendly anyway, but maybe it might be helpful for someone else with the same problem.

  46. It's bananas*

    I work for a school district, but the staff are very rude and clique-y. There was a young woman helping our department out and I was showing her what to do and answered her questions. I don’t know if I did or said something wrong, but when she left for the week, I said thank you for helping, but she just walked right past me with her nose in the air.

    Another woman that occasionally helps our department always gives me attitude and gives me dirty looks. She’s been like this since I’ve started in my position, so I assume it’s just her or maybe she applied for my position, but it’s very tiring.

    I’ve also been hung up on by other workers more than once…

    I always try to “kill them with kindness” but some of these people are just rude. Is there any way to not let it get you down?

    1. Former Young Lady*

      I’m twisted enough to think that “kill them with kindness” is still the right prescription, here. You’re not letting them ruin your behaviour, and you’re demonstrating to any onlookers that you know your coworkers’ rudeness is about them, not you.

      But it’s unsatisfying, that much I know from experience.

      The younger colleague’s cut sublime and stonewalling don’t give you much to work with, unfortunately. Keep being gracious, but accept this unofficial license to dial down from “friendly” to “cordial.”

      As for the crusty looks from your other coworker: if you’re feeling particularly bold, you can respond with wide-eyed innocence: “Sorry, Tammy, is something the matter?” Flippancy can be met with “Are you feeling OK?” or even “That seemed uncalled for,” if you dare.

      Rude people get away with their rudeness because polite people are always taken aback, and we don’t have a handy script for it. (My scripts are not guaranteed to work, either, so only try them if they resonate with you.)

      I know how trite it is to say this, but not letting their rudeness get to you is truly the best way to spoil their fun. It kind of sounds like you’re already doing that by being a happy and helpful person. They’re unhappy people, and they’re trying to make you unhappy too, and they resent that it’s not working.

      Your joy doesn’t seem likely to rub off on them, but you’re already winning if you don’t let their misery rub off on you. Can you take some secret, smirking pleasure in knowing that?

    2. ferrina*

      It always depends on what kind of rude. Some types of rude depend on you to give them power- like the person that won’t acknowledge a Thank You? It’s annoying, but ultimately harmless. It only makes her look bad, not you. Having someone hang up on you? That depends where you were in the conversation- did you still need information from them, or were you wrapping up the conversation? If it impacts your work, that’s a different story.

      For not getting you down, here’s a few things that help me:
      – Don’t let them change you. Remind yourself that kindness is a core part of who you are, whether or not they recognize it, and they can’t stop you from being you.
      – It generally reflects more on them than you. There is nothing more ridiculous than a grown up acting like a child. The more you are unfazed, the more ridiculous they look.
      – Remember that rudeness is about them, not you. Yes, they are directing the behavior at you, but ultimately they are the ones who are being/choosing to be rude in the first place. The more you can be neutral about their response, the more it’s clear that nothing you can do/not do will fix them, these issues are their own.
      – Sometimes rudeness is actually neuroatypical behavior. I work with several neuroatypical people who have difficulty reading social cues. One person has a propensity to be very abrupt- they aren’t being rude, but they when they are focused on solving the problem that their brain doesn’t let them process social cues and niceties.
      – Sometimes rudeness is actually trauma or fear. Trauma and fear can have a wide array of repercussions, and rudeness can be one of them.
      I say this not to suggest that all rude people are neuroatypical or traumatized- plenty are just jerks. But occasionally there is more there, and remembering that helps me not take their rudeness personally.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Usually when I see stuff like this it’s because there’s problems with management. Problems on upper levels can cause the front line people to be at odds with each other. A variation on the expression “crap rolls down hill”.

      I think you have asked about this before. It sounds intense, it really does. Perhaps you can work somewhere else in the next school year?

  47. AndOnAndOnAndAnon*

    Does anyone have any suggestions for dealing with a department that won’t do their pieces of a task but flies off the handle when that means later pieces that they need aren’t there?

    My team handles organization wide software for my company. I am the specialist for a particular piece of software that pulls data from multiple department specific software sources and pushes it to our enterprise management system. Most of our departments use commercial software that interacts well with the software I manage. One of our departments develops all its own software, and it is designed and managed by a single person. It is also a huge mess. Every few months, it will stop sending particular points of data, or send out of date data marked as new updates. This causes issues for their users who work in the enterprise management system. I then get huge freaked out email rants about how ‘my’ software isn’t working again. I have no visibility into their software to check the data being sent for accuracy- only the record of data they have sent us. When I pull those records, the values they are complaining about always match the most recent information they have sent us. Once I point this out, their software engineer will take days or even weeks to correct it, during which time I am treated to complaints from other departments with downstream processes from the problem department. No matter how many times it happens, and the explanation of the problem is given, somehow the perception is that the software I manage is to blame. It doesn’t help that the other department’s software engineer is a 60+ white male who has been at this company for over 20 years and somehow has a reputation for brilliant work, while I am a 40+ white woman who was brought in 3 years ago when this software was first purchased.

    It happened again this week, and I am getting a steady stream of ‘when are you going to fix this’ emails. Of course, their software designer is on an extended vacation, and has no backup so who even knows when the data will be right again. I’m bracing myself for at least two more weeks of daily complaints that this isn’t fixed yet, and the whole situation just makes me want to scream. Any advice would be a huge help.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I’d immediately forward all the emails to the person who handles the niche software and copy the sender. Don’t let the sender think it has anything to do with you. Once you do it a few times, they will start emailing that individual directly.
      The more you interact with the user, the more they will connect you with the problem/solution. And once people can complain directly to the niche software person, then that person will feel the full brunt of the problem.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Or reply directly to the sender, but include the responsible person. “Jane, this is something Fergus needs to handle; I have no control over that software so I’m looping him in.”

    2. OtterB*

      I also think you need to be sure to loop in your boss. It’s a recurring problem that is making you and your department look bad.

    3. Can Can Cannot*

      Whenever this happens, add a notation to the reports, stating that some of the data is incorrect due to problems with data coming from department X, and that it is being worked on. If they have questions the should contact so-and-so in department X.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Time to loop in the boss(es). You know the set up: You ask. They fail to provide. Send a second request, cc the boss, and point out “in the past this has cause upsets, here, right now is a way we can prevent these upsets.”

      Refuse to tolerate 5 year old behavior.

  48. Positive vs Realistic tone as a new person*

    I’ve only been at this job for two days and I already think I’m screwing it up. It’s an idealistic small education nonprofit and I’m a fundraiser. So far, they have a looooot of big, vague ideas that seem strange and unconnected to me. This results in me going to meetings where people are excited about something that seems scattered (but I’m new, so things are more likely to seem scattered … right? Please?). I feel like I’ve already seemed discouraging too many times when I get the feeling they’re hoping I will provide them with funding for these vague or, IMO, kind of bad ideas. What foundation wants to celebrate student success with in-person events right now? None. But as a new person, I think I’m being too negative. Can anybody weigh in here?

    1. Marzipan*

      Assuming it’s your responsibility to do work towards making these things happen, I’d suggest asking questions to drill down into a more specific vision of what they’re actually asking for. This could include giving them some options of whether they’re looking to do X or Y (or whether they’d considered Z, which could be something that’s more realistic from your perspective) in order to sharpen their thoughts a bit. I wouldn’t necessarily be too concerned that things seem vague after just a couple of days – you may not have all the details yet, and lots of very positive and worthwhile initiatives have in any case started life as a sort of hand-wavey sentiment that ‘We should do A Thing…’ If it stays vague, ask your manager for specifics and clarification.

    2. Distractinator*

      Two days is probably too soon to be pushing back a lot… which is not to say that you’re wrong. Sounds like you’re at a stage where you need to be learning about everything going on in the organization, and maybe now you’re just taking some notes, compiling all their harebrained ideas in one place, and you can start actually weighing pro/con once you have the big picture. Even if they do seem like terrible ideas, you can say one mildly discouraging thing (“ooh, interesting plan! Have you thought about X drawback?”) but mostly move on to acknowledging and saving for later (“Thanks so much for telling me about this. I’m still trying to collate everything that’s going on, but I’ll be interested to see how this develops”)

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I am on a board for an NPO.
      We actually created a form for our events.
      The form answered who, what, where, when and how. And it also gave a dollar amount for the cost of the event.

      You could start formalizing their ideas and getting pen to paper. What I like about this, is you don’t have to be negative nancy/ned. You are just redirecting them to completing the form.

      I am not clear though how you are the event planner AND the fundraiser. I could be mistaken but it seems to me that the person who raises the funds does just that component? They don’t actually plan the events/activities/expansions/whatever, other people do that, right?

      1. Positive vs Realistic tone as a new person**

        I’m not the event planner, but I’d be getting the money for the events. But from what I can tell the idea is just “really big events!!!! And LOTS OF EM!!”

    4. Workerbee*

      Oof, sounds like my nonprofit. Lots of Big Exciting Ideas! But practicality, feasibility, accountability? Let’s just have more meetings instead.

      I have commiseration for you and am glad you’re keeping your eyes open.

      1. Positive vs Realistic tone as a new person**

        “Let’s just have more meetings instead.” – oh my god do you work with me??? Everything seems to be about “forming a volunteer committee” – which doesn’t equal funding to me. It just adds even more ideas.

        …I might be in the wrong field …

  49. ChromaKitty*

    Re: zoom etiquette – please note these are low-stakes questions that are mostly humorous. The ultimate answer is that it will depend on your work environment, but I just like to hear everyone’s take.

    1. Is it unprofessional to be drinking from a giant fast food drink cup during a video interview? It was right after lunch and I was still working on my iced tea.
    2. Is it unprofessional to have programmable color-changing kitty ears on your headset? Cosplay-esque elements probably don’t belong in most workplaces, but on the other hand, YOLO.

    What’s your take?

    1. Overeducated*

      I’d say yes to #1 and maybe to #2 in an interview setting, which is generally more formal. In daily work I don’t think either of those is unprofessional in an internal meeting but might be with external clients or partners. Agreed this is field and workplace dependent though.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        Agree. I would probably have transferred the drink to a regular glass or cup.

        One of my coworkers does a lot of online meetings with external people. Early on, she realized she needed to buy new tumblers, because all of hers had bar or beer names on them.

    2. Mr. Cajun2core*

      If this were for a job interview for which you were applying, I wouldn’t be too thrilled with either one if I was the person interviewing you. I would treat a zoom interview, even a phone interview, the same as I would an in-person interview. If you came to an in person interview with both of those it would be a medium red flag. However, since things are generally more relaxed with Zoom, for a zoom interview I would consider it a small red flag.

    3. kicking_k*

      I would love to see your ears.
      Also, so long as you don’t slurp, I would think sipping a beverage during a meeting is always OK, but I’m less sure about an interview. Were you the applicant or the interviewer?

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      Maybe unprofessional to #1. There’s more leeway if you were the interviewer. But honestly, I would have dumped the drink into a coffee mug since those read as more acceptable because the way the cameras work, that huge cup in the foreground is really distracting.
      A definite yes, that’s unprofessional to #2. It’s the sort of thing I might do in a small group of my closest work friends when we’re just messing around, or if my job was to work with children, but you wouldn’t wear lit up kitty ears in the office, and expect to be treated like a serious professional, right? So they don’t belong on a Zoom call with the exception of “just having fun with friends” or “I work with children.”

    5. LDN Layabout*

      In an interview, I’d say both are unprofessional. Yes some standards are different in video interviews vs. in person, but if you wouldn’t walk into an interview with a fast food drink in person, why would you have it visible in the interview?

      (and while I think it’d be unprofessional, I’d want the kitty ears. They sound amazing)

    6. Dust Bunny*

      I would not do either of these things at an interview.

      Would you bring these to an in-person interview? Then why would you bring them to a video interview? It’s still an interview. I’m not sure why the fact that it’s Zoom should toss so much etiquette out the window.

    7. ChromaKitty*

      Thanks everyone for your comments. :)

      Update:
      1. I was one of the interviewers, and we were all drinking something, but everyone else had like a mug or an insulated tumbler. I agree that it probably wasn’t my best move and won’t be doing that in the future, however I was dressed more professionally than normal (wearing a company-branded collared shirt) so maybe that helped? It probably would have seemed more slovenly if I was in a tshirt.

      2. I am totally in love with my kitty ears headset but I will most likely be leaving them at home once I start back in the office. However I did find out that when I turn on background effects, they cut out the ears, so all you see is the headset part. However I did not wear them for the interviews, I had on a regular set of headphones.

      1. LDN Layabout*

        I think you get more leeway as an interviewer vs. an interviewee. I wouldn’t have blinked at a fast food cup if I were a candidate.

    8. PolarVortex*

      1: Pour it in another cup. Having a drink isn’t bad. Having a fast food drink cup for whatever reason plays off a bit like one of those stereotyped 90s high schoolers rolling their eyes and slurping from a fast food cup loudly in rebellion of the man. Particularly for an interview where you’re supposed to be showing your best self.

      2: If they change color while in the interview, that’s distracting and not great. I’m a huge fan of being me 100%, but I’m also aware that the me that has proven myself as a valued employee still scrubbed up appropriately for an interview enough for them to trust me before they had that proof. If you can pull the ears off your headphones, do it, or buy a $20 set from wherever to be “interview headphones”.

    9. fhqwhgads*

      In an interview, I’d say both are a no-go. If you already work with me, and it’s a one-off meeting, it matters a lot less.

    10. Sylvan*

      I’d say both are kind of unprofessional, but I also don’t know if that would stop anyone, including me, from doing those things.

      Put the drink in a glass next time, maybe?

  50. Amber Rose*

    It occurs to me that while I’m not a cold person, I’m not a very warm one either. What I mean is, my boss was showing a picture that she found hilarious to everyone in the office and they were all falling over themselves laughing, but I just kinda… smiled. Because it wasn’t that funny? And I can smile at stuff but I can’t fake a laugh convincingly.

    She seemed kind of put off but I don’t know if there’s anything I can do about it.

    1. Dust Bunny*

      or maybe it just wasn’t funny? Not everyone things everything is funny. You’re allowed to not think it’s funny.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Unfortunately some bosses and all children do not think you are allowed to think something is not funny if it amuses them. When you’re in that situation, performative amusement is your friend – the smile with a nod, the “exhale through nose” appreciation huff, a small chuckle.

    2. Former Young Lady*

      If you managed a good-natured smile, I’d say that’s light years better than a hollow fake-laugh or a deadpan, “Oh, that’s funny.” (Save that for Mike from Revenue, who is not your boss and whose jokes are never funny.)

      For future boss interactions, how good are you at mustering a fake snort? I used to moonlight in comedy, and when a joke bombed, it could often be saved by a solitary snort in the audience that got everyone else laughing. (This is an ingratiate-yourself-to-your-boss strategy, not a just-be-yourself strategy.)

      If a snort is not possible, certain “groaner”-type humour can be properly rewarded with a smile and an eye-roll and an “Oh, dear.”

      I’m one of those heart-on-my-sleeve people, but paradoxically that means I also come off as cold when I’m bored by someone’s jokes and anecdotes. I also know how bad it feels when my own jokes don’t land. It’s a bid for connection, and the bidder wants you to be affected by it, but there’s more than one way to demonstrate that you’re affected.

    3. Ari*

      not sure you have to do some weird cackling level vocalization on the laugh, but would a smiling, breathy, “Hah!” be easy enough? I seem to be able to do that on command.

      Especially now with so many virtual meetings, presenters and things don’t get a lot of feedback, so sometimes I intentionally come off mute to “non-verbally” express my appreciation for a joke (pun/ironic statement…). The moment of true vocal reaction might be over, but a short moment of feedback is still appreciated/fits into the flow.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I’m like you, I don’t fake laughter for anyone. I don’t have it in me. Worse, my humor is kind of strange, some times things hit me as very funny but little kids are the only ones who are amused. (I can be too easily amused sometimes.)

      People do fake laughter to kiss up to the boss, massage their ego. Personally, I think a small smile is just fine.

  51. merp*

    This might be a borderline weekend question but: how do you know if your dissatisfaction with your job and your mental health are related? And if so, it feels like a chicken and egg problem – is my job making me depressed or is my depression making me dislike my job?

    Basically, I feel very trapped in my job and am longing for something like a sabbatical, where I can take 2 months and spend some time figuring out what I wish were different and then making moves in that direction. I can’t actually do that, and I don’t want to quit when the job market is so bad, but besides all of that…. I really worry that my depression is making all of this worse than it actually is. How do I know if these same feelings would just follow me if I did get a new job?

    I’m talking through this stuff with my therapist and all that, but I wondered from a work perspective if anyone had gone through this or had advice.

    1. PolarVortex*

      Either or both. There’s no good answer, and you won’t know until you’re on the other side of your depression or your job (or both).

      My recommendation would be job search while continuing to work. If only because I assume your therapist is being funded either by insurance or your paycheck. A new job might kickstart the upswing out of your depression. Or your shift out of your depression will either a) make you fall back in love with your work or b) kickstart your job search.

    2. PX*

      This is definitely a bit chicken and egg, but I would say you can actually test this one out? If you are in therapy and it is hopefully working or starting to work – how do you feel about your job?

      I had a really tough 2019 mental health wise, and after some therapy realised it was heavily driven by my job – and also not feeling like I had control of the situation. Being able to unpick that really helped, and while what really did the trick was getting a new job – I can also say that the skills I got from that have definitely helped (because as I’ve found out, the new job isnt a great fit either – but I’m better able to cope and my mental health isnt anything like as bad as it was then).

      I realise this is probably really hard, but if you feel trapped in your job – the best thing I often find is actually starting to look for other jobs. Even if you dont apply for them, just working on your CV and/or seeing what’s out there can really do wonders for making you feel less stuck. Not sure if you’re already doing this, but just thought I’d mention it.

    3. Jellyfish*

      Every situation is different, but I can tell you my own experience. When my job was making me depressed, it seeped into everything in my life. Work took up so much of my time, plus it affected things like whether I could afford a less crappy apartment or necessary car repairs. Plus, I was afraid of losing health care and looking bad socially if I couldn’t last at that job. I didn’t quite realize all that until later though. Depression is rough when you’re in the middle of it.

      Some of my bad habits and ingrained thought patterns did follow to the next job though, so that may be something to watch for either way.

      Several years later, I was having a rough time outside of work. I may have given my job less energy and attention, but I didn’t hate it. In fact, it was kinda nice to have something else to focus on. That wasn’t a case of clinical depression though, which is a whole other consideration. Just a non-work rough patch.

      I hope you’re able to find a happier balance, one way or another!

    4. ferrina*

      Where do you find your energy and joy? Are you able to enjoy stuff outside your job, or is everything bland? (This doesn’t always work with depression, but it definitely helps with malaise). Pay attention to what you love and what does bring you joy. Why does it bring you joy? If you’re able to find joy outside of work, but that joy is tempered with exhaustion or intrusive thoughts of work, that’s useful to know.

      You can also try job searching. How do you feel about looking for a new job? What do you feel when you think of starting a new job? Fear of change? Hope? Or conversely, fear of getting your hopes up and then having that hope destroyed? Sadness because you don’t quite want to leave Current Job? Nothing? What if you try applying and see what feelings you get next.
      When I got my first interview after five years at Toxic Job, the feeling was exhilarating- I couldn’t believe I had a professional work conversation with someone intelligent and respectful. Toxic Jobs can hide how bad they are, and having fresh experience can clarify it.

      You can also try treating the depression and seeing if that effects how you feel about your job. Treatment can be medication, exercise, sunlight, additional social contact with enjoyable people, etc. Find something that makes you feel good (or at least less awful), then see if you are able to take that feeling in to your job.

    5. Nicotene*

      I realize not everyone has this option, but when I was feeling this way, I shifted to freelancing for a year before I started job searching. I was too depressed to take on job searching, which is a lot of work in itself, and I wouldn’t have been able to get through the interview convincingly – I would have seemed bitter, jaded, and low-energy. However, I didn’t have the luxury of quitting either. So I aggressively saved up money and lined up a PT gig (tutoring) and did some freelancing. I wouldn’t have been able to afford it longer than a year, but it was an amazing year.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I had crappy health and I had a crappy job.
      It doesn’t matter chicken or the egg.
      Since both are miserable then both need assistance.

      Yes, a crappy job is going to make MH issues worse. Just like a really bad cold is going to make a broken leg feel worse. Gotta treat the cold and the leg to get to a better spot.

  52. Mr. Cajun2core*

    My intern works 20 hours per week. Overall, he has been excellent. He is always willing to do what is asked without even the slightest eye roll or sigh. He learns quickly and is quickly learning the norms of the office procedures. However, there is one slight issue. He seems to get sick about every other Monday. He just texted me that he will not be in today (Friday) due to a fever. We did close very early yesterday due to weather related issues but my first instinct is that this is not related. He has not been sick on any other day of the week. If his track record and work ethic were not exceptional, I would have a long conversation with him and be very suspicious. This did not happen last semester.

    Should I have a conversation with him to let him know that at the very least it can look bad? I fear to do this because knowing him, he will come in sick and I don’t want him to do that!

    1. Overeducated*

      It’s still a pandemic, spread in large part by people who don’t have severe symptoms. You want people to err on the side of staying home. Talking to him about it would send the message that he should come in if he’s not REALLY sick. Bad message. IMO, I’d let the next job, or the next year, be the time to talk about optics. If there’s anything he can work on remotely when he’s a little under the weather but not too sick to work, that’s the only context in which I’d bring it up.

      1. Mr. Cajun2core*

        Thanks. He is planning on returning after the summer so I will see how things go at that time.

    2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      If your sick days are truly random, 40% of them would be on a Monday or Friday (or whatever day begins and ends the work week in question).

      Friday sick days may well involve someone getting worn down. Or an exposure from earlier in the week incubating.

      Monday sick days may well be from an exposure the previous week.

      If his work is otherwise good, and especially if you see signs he’s recovering from something when he returns, I’d coach him on pacing himself and taking better care of himself.

      1. Mr. Cajun2core*

        Yes you are right that normally 40% of sick days fall on Monday or Friday. So far for him it has been closer to 100% so it is not truly random.

        Interesting thought about him showing signs of recovering from something. I can’t say that I have seen that but I haven’t really looked either. However, he is young, an athletic, and otherwise healthy, so that may play into it also.

        Maybe he is overdoing it at times. It is definitely something to think about.

        1. ferrina*

          The 40% also assumes that people are only motivated to take a sick day based on level of sickness. I’ve noticed that my staff are more comfortable being sick on a Monday than any other day. I’ve seen people try to power through ridiculous levels of illness because “Tuesdays are busy” or “Well, I was okay yesterday in that big team meeting and don’t want people to think I’m lazy!”. Sometimes weekends can give that extra nudge for folks to stay home when they need to, especially if Mondays are slower days in their position (i.e., the day they are least likely to be missed).

          Unless the work is affected, I don’t think there’s anything to gain by bringing it up.

          2. Mr. Cajun2core*

            Those are interesting thoughts. I never thought about it that way.

            The work is affected. There are things that he normally does that I am having to do.

        2. TechWorker*

          ‘It’s been closer to 100% so it’s not truly random’

          This is not how probability works really… You expect 40% of sick days to fall on Fridays and Mondays on average, but you’d need to be tracking over a large number of days to conclude that them all being mondays + fridays makes them not random.

    3. Ciela*

      perhaps he has some kind of doctor’s visit that might make him feel ill? Some kind of injections that he needs to get on a regular basis?

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Since he is an intern and you are supposed to be helping launch his worklife, I’d say something. Some of that can be attributed to this is how I am- I do speak up because I don’t want a huge problem later on.

      You can say in the context of there are bosses out there who will notice this pattern and they will question it. It’s best to give the boss a heads up. “I take my mom to chemo every other Monday” or “Fridays I have a small medical treatment so sometimes on Mondays I cannot function.”

    5. t*

      Some people fake illness to get out of work. Without more detail, it sounds to me like this is the situation in this case. If he’s using sick days to which he is entitled, and his work or your team’s work isn’t affected, not much you can do, but when people routinely call in sick on the same days, and don’t forewarn you (“I have a health situation for which I get help on Mondays, sometimes Fridays, and I might be calling in at various times on those days”), he’s likely just taking advantage.

  53. Hiding hiding hidingggg*

    At an earlier work meeting, I gave a quick pitch about my work, which leadership basically questioned, except it was what an expert said during my interview with them so I stood my ground politely but firmly. Then they suggested another expert to interview except I butchered their name’s pronunciation (I’d never heard it before) and mistakenly assumed it was a female. It was not. I feel so, soooooooooooooooo embarrassed and excuse me while I crawl under my desk and hide….O.o.

    1. twocents*

      I feel you! Someone let me mispronounce their name numerous times before their boss finally told me that I wasn’t pronouncing it right. (It wasn’t even difficult to pronounce, just you never would have guessed it was pronounced that way from the spelling.)

  54. Unsure*

    Is there a business reason other than mileage reimbursement to need an auto insurance declaration form? My employer used to require forms from people who drive for business purposes but now say everyone needs to submit them.
    I’m not eligible for reimbursement and would rather not provide the form as there is personal information on there but want to make sure there isn’t another reason. (I’ve asked HR and they haven’t gotten back to me.)

    3. PollyQ*

      Yeah, that’s weird. I can’t think of a reason why your company should need any information about your car or insurance if you’re not using it for business purposes. What next, your homeowner’s insurance? I’m curious to know what your HR comes back with.

    4. Bagpuss*

      It may be that people occasionally drive even without normally driving ‘for business’ stuff like dropping thing off for a WFH coworker , and they want to check that everyone has appropriate insurance?
      I’m not sure if it’s the same in the US but here (UK) you don’t get business use covered as standard on car insurance

  55. SnowWhiteClaw*

    Has anyone taken a leave of absence for mental health reasons? How did you accomplish that exactly?

    I’m extremely depressed and the thought of going to work makes me feel like not existing any more.

    I’m OKish on the weekends. I really need a long vacation. My boss says we can’t take vacation until the end of May.

    I really want to quit but I can’t lose my health insurance. I have 10+ doctor appointments a month for my physical disability. I need more time to take care of my mental and physical health.

    Any advice is welcome, thank you.

    1. merp*

      I also wish I could do this. I don’t really know if it’s possible where I work, but thank you for asking, I’ll be following the replies too.

    2. kicking_k*

      I feel for you… I do have direct experience of this but it only applies to the UK, where this would be unproblematic in most professional jobs. You would visit your doctor and be “signed off” for a couple of weeks, and your employer would have to work with that. You might have to provide a “fit to work” letter or have a post-leave interview when you returned, but you couldn’t be fired or lose access to medical treatment.

      This is not your situation though. I do hope you manage to sort something out. It sounds punishing.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      A long time ago, I developed PTSD from an insanely abusive boss. I asked my therapist if she could help with a leave of absence and she was really reluctant at first, but I pretty much begged her to help me and she agreed.
      I don’t remember the exact process, but my therapist had to give the okay, and then I had to fill out the FMLA paperwork with HR. I got 2 weeks of leave.

    4. Mental Lentil*

      Check your employee handbook, if you have one. Depending on your company’s policy, you might lose pay, but not benefits.

    5. mreasy*

      I did! I found out my company’s policy, then got my psychiatrist to approve it. I let my boss know and indicated my doctor or I would be in touch with whatever documentation they needed. I was in inpatient care but between my docs and my husband, it all got done. I was out for 3-4 weeks and inpatient for 1.

    6. Sending Good Thoughts Your Way*

      I am so sorry you are going through this. I have had anxiety and depression for many years (much better with medication now) and have been where you are. I am very concerned that you said you don’t feel like existing anymore. I have been there too. I know that doesn’t necessarily mean you will follow through, but PLEASE call the National Suicide Prevention line at 800-273-8255. They help with emotional distress, not just potential suicide, and they may have some ideas you haven’t thought of. Warm, warm wishes to you.

    7. Koala dreams*

      What’s your company’s regular policy for taking leave because of illness? Do you have sick leave? Usually there isn’t a special process for depression compared to other illnesses. (Never heard of that!) You call in sick according to the company policy, and then there might be different requirements depending on the length of the illness.

      I could describe how I do when I call in sick, but I doubt it’s the same as the policy in your company. If there’s a HR department perhaps you can ask them. You don’t need to tell them you have depression when you ask, you can say that you want to know for the future. After all, anybody could get ill.

      Take care!

    8. I'm on mental health leave*

      I am currently on an unpaid medical leave of absence due to mental health struggles (which were exacerbated by my workplace’s unsafe and gaslighty handling of COVID). I’m a government employee in Canada so my situation may not entirely apply, but basically what I had to do was 1). get a doctor’s note saying I couldn’t work for medical reasons 2). Get a form/questionnaire from my work that my doctor needed to fill out (heads up, they were allowed to clarify if it was mental health related so the person in charge of this process in your workplace will know that much) 3). Submit a workplace definite leave of absence request 4). Set up all the interim payment stuff for union dues, long term disability, etc. You still have to pay into them even if you are on an unpaid leave so your benefits don’t lapse. 5). Apply for temporary government assistance since it is an unpaid leave. If any of this helps or you want to ask more questions, I’ll check back in a few times today & tomorrow.

  56. Fencer*

    In my mind, I thought I’d be ready for kids this summer/pregnancy etc. but then there’s all the real world stuff. Dealing with coworkers, even if virtual. Stuff coming up. Stress and quick-thinking and all that. How do people pull that off while pregnant? I always imagined being able to enjoy that particular life phase, but everything seems so rushed and busy and crazy. And I’m in the U.S. which is not as easy to have kids. None of my friends except one have a kid and we’re all well into our thirties.

    1. Eleanor Knope*

      I have a 4-month old, and I was on the “I want kids, and why not now” line of thought when we started trying. We’d just traveled abroad, had good jobs, felt ready enough. I got pregnant almost right away, and then had a missed miscarriage at 8 weeks. I was so devastated, and it made work really hard for a few months. I was lucky enough to get pregnant again 3 months after the miscarriage, and then COVID hit. And then my dad died. Yes, the stress and craziness of the world made it harder, but if you’re in a good work environment, people will be kind and give you leeway if you’re not as good on the fly as you once were (my super sharp memory got pretty fuzzy for a while there). I was very lucky to have a stable job and extremely understanding boss through all of this.

      This has been the hardest year, and the pregnancy definitely wasn’t easy, but it was 100% worth it. And I still have fond memories of the pregnancy when I look back at even the hardest weeks in there.

      I don’t say any of this to scare you! Just to say that there is never an ideal time to have kids. Even when you think things are stable, they can change in an instant. Good luck with your choice :)

    2. WellRed*

      I don’t have kids but want to point out that the real world stuff never goes away, kids or not. If you are getting near age 35 or so please consider how that factors in.

    3. Ranon*

      Mostly it kind of sucks! At least it did for me, I didn’t particularly enjoy being pregnant. The work stuff was no worse than much anything else, I found that I mostly just cared less and turns out that was fine, at least for my job. Lots of lists for the worst of the brain fog. All of which is pretty much what it’s like to work while having a young child in your house except for the very physical parts of pregnancy.

      Enjoyment of pregnancy seems to be as much hormones as circumstances, I had really very good circumstances and didn’t like it anywhere as much as some friends with a lot more stress but different bodies did.

      1. kicking_k*

        Yes, this. I didn’t feel my brain was really any foggier than usual, I have to say, although it was a little distracting to have a foot kicking my ribcage from the inside.

  57. mcfizzle*

    I work in a niche setting on a team of 5, and everyone really is great or excellent at their respective job. Also, due to the nature of our jobs, all have been vaccinated. Two of the 5 roles are very much public facing and very similar in nature, and are physically housed in a different office in the same building (easier for the public to access them this way). The other 3 of us are upstairs, with three very different roles. One of those roles is an “in house” programmer, who supports data requests, data transfers, etc. None of our roles changed / evolved during the pandemic.

    For the last year, the programmer has worked from home. This has seemed to work out really well for him, and I haven’t seen any dip in the quality / output of his work. The rest of us started slowly coming back in the last 4-6 months. For a couple of us, we genuinely prefer to be at work (toddlers at home make working hard!, etc), and so far things have been harmonious.

    Now the larger organization has announced that next week we’ll be up to 80% capacity (basically an option to work 1 day a week at home, if desired). One the public facing employees recently brought up an equity issue, in that the current plan is for the programmer to be coming back one day a week, but the public facing employees are at 4-5 days a week.

    I see both sides here, but I’m not sure what the best solution should be. They are very, very different roles, so I can’t see comparing it apples to apples that way. Neither has children or other personal situations that need to be taken into consideration.

    What do we do?

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      Look at the roles — some roles require being in person. Some do not. Some roles require frequent travel. Some do not. Etc Etc Etc

      1. mcfizzle*

        Thanks! That’s my thought, but wanted to see if there are other considerations we should be taking into account. Since we’re such a small team, I also want to ruffle as few feathers as possible.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      “Fair” is not the same as “equal.” If the programmer can accomplish everything they need to accomplish while working at home, they shouldn’t be denied that just because others don’t have that kind of job. Does the larger organization have any staff who have to be on site 100% of the time? If so, tell the public facing employees that they won’t be held to the standards required for those jobs, just as the programmer won’t be held to the standard required for their jobs.

      1. mcfizzle*

        Thank you – I think that’s the difference I was trying to articulate (and clearly couldn’t find the right words). Fair is not the same as equal. Much appreciated!

      2. tangerineRose*

        “If the programmer can accomplish everything they need to accomplish while working at home, they shouldn’t be denied that just because others don’t have that kind of job.” This!

      1. mcfizzle*

        Thanks – that is also my thinking. The employee that brought it up phrased it as an equity issue, so I wanted to consider that perspective.

    4. SomebodyElse*

      I offer this jokingly (sort of):

      If any of the public facing employees complain, just ask them for their home address to send clients to :)

      That should put the roles in perspective

    5. WFH*

      Take kids out of the equation. That is, kids+closed schools can be a reason to accommodate people working from home, but someone not having them is not a reason to deny them wfh. The real issue is the different job. If there’s not a way for the others to do all their work from home then they can’t. But see what you can do to make their coming in good. A little more flexibility? Catered lunch once a week? It’s real that some people really liked working from home and I think it’s prudent to acknowledge that, even if it’s now time to go back.

    6. nice is different than good*

      How have the other employees been working for the last year? At home, I assume? While still handling clients, even though they aren’t face to face? Is there a reason that isn’t working?

      It’s true that different jobs require different accommodations, but it will also breed resentment super fast for those employees having to commute to work and give up all the work from home perks while other employees get to keep those benefits. I second the suggestion to make it worth coming into the office for the employees you are requiring to be in person. Flexibility. Free food. Fridays off. Something! Otherwise, I would personally start looking for a job that didn’t make my job and life harder than those of other employees.

  58. JH*

    I’ve been working in non-profits as an event manager/fundraiser since I graduated in 2015. It’s not what I got my degree in but had many non-profit internships in college and fell in love with fundraising. At 22 when I graduated, I was super idealistic and thought I would never care about making money and that working in non-profits, helping people, would be the only way I could be happy in life. Six years later I’ve realized, that while I love the work I do, there are actually things I like to do outside of work. Things like travel, running, having my dog. All things I could never imagine making my life full when I made my career choice. I now realize most of these things cost money and are sometimes very hard to do on a non-profit salary.

    I do still very much love my job but have been thinking more recently that I might want to make a career change to the private sector. My organization has been hit hard by COVID and we laid off almost half our staff last year and we’re looking at another year without getting a raise. I guess I’m struggling to figure out if my desire to change jobs is because of this or because I really want to move to a new field. But also I have no idea how my skills would be transferrable to a new field or how to go about changing career fields. Is anyone else going through this or gone through it? Would love any suggestions or advice!

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Have you considered working in higher education? Depending on where you are located and what schools are near you, fundraising for universities and colleges can be lucrative. Some schools have been hit harder by the pandemic than others, so something else to factor in.

      On the private sector side, the closest thing I can think of to fundraising is business development. Some roles can be salesy, but some can be about building partnerships/relationships. Of course, if you like the events work you do, there is a ton of that in the corporate world as well.

      1. Unladen European Swallow*

        I second the suggestion of working in higher education. Fundraising (often called “Advancement” or “Development” within higher ed) is a well-paid niche within universities. Since you already have fundraising experience at a non-profit, that totally counts as relevant experience. Furthermore, if you can demonstrate having landed/secured significant gifts (5+ figures), that will identify you as a competitive candidate.

        The other thing to know is that paradoxically, the richer colleges/universities have greater staff and resources within their Advancement/Development offices. Just something to keep in mind as you review open roles across institutions.

    2. Not Alison*

      Just a quick comment to support your idea of transitioning to a higher paying field. I did just the opposite – – started in industry and working my way up to a high level salary, then went to work at a not-for-profit. Having savings and being able to buy a house and be able to cash flow a Master’s degree before working for the lower pay of an NFP meant being able to have funds to spend enjoying life while working for the NFP.

  59. PMP time*

    Does anyone have suggestions for how to handle their performance management agreements this year?

    We’ve come to performance review time at my organization, and I am feeling utterly at a loss. From a personal standpoint, I have had a great year: I am a single parent with an autoimmune condition and no support system nearby, and I have somehow managed to keep us all alive and sane and even learning to read.

    From the work perspective, well… if work were a house, it would still be standing, no fires, the lawn occasionally trimmed but definitely no new projects and a cracked driveway.

    My boss has asked for some ideas of what to put down for my review, and I am completely at a loss. I don’t want to be left behind like so many other women during this pandemic, but at the same time, it’s not like I have a great list of external accomplishments that I can point to.

    So far my best idea is to call this the year that I saw a lot of work relationships pay off and point to a number of projects that I had put in motion pre-pandemic start to bear fruit.

    Any other suggestions?

    1. PX*

      Depending on your line of work/boss/culture – you could also say “not dropping any balls/maintaining status quo”? A little bit of what you alluded to earlier – but if your industry and job have managed to stay the same/do okay given the situation, for some people that would definitely be counted as an achievement!

    2. Weekend Please*

      It’s all in the framing. To use your house analogy: Despite the tornado that hit, you kept the house standing with only minor damage to the driveway. Point out what you overcame to keep everything running relatively smoothly.

      1. Momma Bear*

        Especially transitioning to remote work – not everyone can do that. Some people dropped the ball very hard. If you didn’t lose productivity and kept everything running, yay you!

  60. Volunteering?*

    Any recommendations for how to find a volunteer gig? I know it’s kind of a stupid question but I’ve never really gone out and found a place to volunteer—do I go to the specific place’s website (eg a nearby hospice) or look for postings on a bigger website? Looking at something like volunteermatch it just doesn’t seem like there’s a lot.

    1. Web Crawler*

      Got anything you want to help with? One way to search is by googling with more specific areas. Like: “environmental non-profits volunteering CityName” Other areas could be animals, children, park cleanups, elderly, food banks, hotlines, homeless shelters

      Another way to search is by asking friends who volunteer, or going around and keeping an eye out for opportunities on flyers/the local paper/social media.

    2. Web Crawler*

      Sorry, I didn’t actually process your question.

      Usually you’d go to a specific place’s website. If they don’t have a website, email them something like “I’m interested in volunteering. How can I get involved?”

    3. Asenath*

      Almost all I’ve ever done is identify a place or organization I was interested in and email/phone them to ask if they needed any volunteers (assuming that information wasn’t available online). Have ready in advance some ideas about what you’d like to do – eg is it a dealbreaker if you want to run their fundraising campaign, but they really need someone to clean dog kennels or help transport people needing assistance? Do they need someone to commit to a certain number of hours a week, and does it work with your other commitments? The other way I’ve volunteered is by noticing an ad or other local public notice that a place needs volunteers, and then following up if I think I’d like the work and am able to do it.

    4. Chauncy Gardener*

      Yes, going to the specific website is a great idea. Most will have a volunteer area. If they don’t, just email or call and ask if they have volunteers and what does it involve. Good luck! I’m starting to get re-involved with my garden related volunteering and I’m psyched!

    5. Former Young Lady*

      Some nonprofit out there is just waiting to hear from you. I will echo what the others here have said about contacting them.

      One word of caution: volunteering can be sort of a Hydra beast, where cutting off one head results in three new heads growing back. Start slow, because as soon as you’re volunteering for a couple things, you’ll have a reputation, and more organizations will be after you. (Ask me how I know…)

    6. Anon for this*

      My kids all had to put in volunteer hours when they were in high school, so I’ve through this before. Bigger, more established places have info on their websites*. In my area there are local freebie newspapers with local goings on that sometimes have volunteers wanted columns. Otherwise just call/e-mail and ask.

      *Around Thanksgiving a lot of food pantries and places that feed the poor will have links for sign up on their web pages.

    8. Lyudie*

      I posted a link to volunteermatch and missed you already looked there *facepalm* So uh ignore that when it comes out of moderation.

    9. Momma Bear*

      Google for a list of nonprofits in your county, and then reach out to those orgs directly. If there’s nothing specific on their website, ask if they need volunteer help and if so, with what? Or take note of things like a food distribution and contact the provider directly (the PTA, the community center, church). For a lot of opportunities you don’t need to be a part of that org to lend a hand so don’t overlook volunteering at a school or church that you otherwise have no association with. You can put a toe in the water by doing something as a one-off and if you like it, you can come back. Like a park trash pick up.

    10. All Het Up About It*

      The answer is yes! It varies from place to place and organizations to organization, but you can go to individual sites to find out about their opportunities. You can also go to bigger sites like VolunteerMatch or your local United Way. These places serve as volunteer portals where they list their local organizations they fund (or who have arranged to be on their site) and those organizations can post volunteer opportunities on said portal.

      Also, this advice is assuming you are in the U.S.

    11. The Prettiest Curse*

      A good resource is http://www.idealist.org/
      They have international and remote (based anywhere in the world) listing. If you are looking to volunteer at a nonprofit, go to their website and see if they list an email address for volunteer contacts (usually it will be something like volunteer@nonprofit.org) or they may list the name and contact info of their volunteer manager.
      However, be aware that some volunteer managers have been assigned to other work or laid off due to the pandemic, so you may have better results applying to specific listed positions. (The volunteer manager at my last nonprofit job got re-assigned because 99% of our volunteer opportunities were for in-person events.)

    12. Charlotte Lucas*

      Local libraries sometimes post lists of places looking for volunteers. (And they often need them, too!)

      Are you looking for a particular type of volunteer opportunity? That can help you decide who to contact.

  61. Kat Maps*

    I’m a few weeks into a new job. I had a lot of responsibility at Old Job, but the pay wasn’t great and I had zero benefits. The new job I’m in is a step down in terms of the role & responsibilities, but it pays much better, I have full benefits and pension, and paid time off. The benefits are way more important to me in the long run, and I was suffering burnout in Old Job, but the fact of the matter is that this new role isn’t hugely challenging.
    So now I’m finding myself struggling a bit with missing the feelings of being challenged and having more responsibility.
    For other folks who have taken ‘a step down’ from previous roles, how did you work through that transition? Was it a long-term struggle or did you get over it quickly? (I recognize that I’m very new to this role so this is likely all part of the typical growing pains).

    1. Dasein9*

      Yeah, I switched industries from academia to the private sector and now have a job with lower status, less responsibility, and higher pay. Part of my coping has involved outside projects. It’s been such a joy to have time to paint or sing after work is done that my “one year to slack off a bit” has become 3 years and I’m not trying too hard to change that!

      While at work, it can help to find things to learn. A few weeks ago, there was a conversation on this site about having a “work hobby,” a sort of project to work on during down times that isn’t urgent or a rush, involves some professional skills-building, and adds value for the company. Can you find a “work hobby” to give you a bit of challenge? Do some of the workplace processes confuse people and need to be turned into job aids? Is there a program or app you’d like to become more conversant with?

      1. SomebodyElse*

        I think that was mine :)

        Yes, a work hobby is the way to go here. Find something that both interests you and can benefit your role, team, or company.

        Mine was sharepoint. I found that even as a user with just a few extra permissions I was able to learn how to do quite a lot with sharepoint which helped organize my team and streamline some of our work. I really got started by poking at buttons and googling and after awhile I took a few classes here and there. It was nice because nobody had asked me to do these things, so I could work on them in my own time. I could spend as much time on them as I needed. And if I’m honest it gave my brain something to do.

        Specifically to @Kat Maps I wouldn’t worry so much about the slow pace. I’ve found that busy people find a way to stay busy. Good leadership figures out pretty quick who can take on more and advanced work. I have a feeling you’ll be moving up soon enough.

        1. Kat Maps*

          Thank you both for sharing your experience! I do already find myself with more mental energy to do personal creative projects in my off time, which has been great and I really need to place more value in that. And I already have been making little notes towards a ‘work hobby’, I guess without even realizing that that’s what I’ve been doing. I’m feeling hopeful again :) Thank you both!

        2. Dasein9*

          Yes. Thank you! A few of us have creating onboarding training as a new “work hobby” now. My supervisor liked the term.

  62. Gummi Gummi?*

    My team is having a “virtual happy hour” 4-5 today. Folks are encouraged to have a drink but not pressed to. I’d prefer to have a pot gummi, myself, and it’s legal where I live for recreational use.

    Now, I probably won’t mention if I do ingest it “on the clock,” and it wouldn’t kick in until the event is ending anyhow, but I have wondered how etiquette regarding THC in professional situations is likely to change as more and more places legalize it. Any thoughts?

    2. SomebodyElse*

      What is your work policy? I wouldn’t do it publicly, if you know what I mean.

      Right, wrong, or indifferent drinking alcohol and pot is not perceived the same. I don’t think that you’re going to start seeing edible bars instead of beer and wine at company social events any time soon if that is what you are asking.

    3. Nicki Name*

      As long as it remains illegal at the federal level, I’d say absolutely do not take, regardless of local laws.

      My state was one of the first ones to legalize recreational pot, but none of my workplaces since then have exempted it from drug tests or in any way suggested they would overlook use of it.

    4. Bostonian*

      What an interesting question! It’s legal recreationally where I am (username checks out). There still seems to be a stigma with use more so than drinking since it’s only been a recent development. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s considered no different from drinking in social occasions in the near future (don’t get too crazy, don’t drive after). As others have noted, the federal bit is a confounding factor.

  63. introverted af*

    Any advice on getting into project management? From my current role as an admin, where would you suggest I look to get transferable experience? Any non-degree programs or certificates that would be helpful?

    I currently have 3 years of experience as an admin, and throughout my work I’ve seen that the project management-type of stuff I have worked on is what I most enjoy and where I see my skills applied the best. My undergrad degree is in political science and a language, so not the business/etc degrees I usually see requested on the type of job description I’m interested in. I don’t have a ton of firm experience in the area or in tech, but am willing to move to a more entry-level position to get going.

    Part of my motivation is that I really want to work remotely full time. My plan has been to try and get promoted at my current employer to a role that is involved at the department level (not just the team level), and then maybe get PMI certificate or something, to then be able to move the direction I want, but I’m not sure if there’s anything else that would be helpful.

    1. BlueBelle*

      To transition, you might consider looking for a position with the title project management coordinator or HR project management coordinator, training and development coordinator. This will give you some experience in project management before making the time and money investment in getting PM certified. The PMP designation isn’t easy, even for those who have been working in PM, they struggle with the testing because it is more theory than practice. I think it is also important to figure out what area of a business you like- IT, L&D, HR, Marketing, Sales, etc.
      Good luck!

    2. Nessun*

      You could investigate the IAAP (International Association of Administrative Professionals) – they have several programs that offer accreditations related to project management or organizational management. There’s a cost associated, but they’re available to non-members, and it shows dedication to ongoing learning as well as giving you a relevant experience to add to your resume if you’re looking at PM jobs. Admin has a lot of crossover with PM, and the programs highlight that.

  64. Blame Game*

    I think my boss might make me take the blame for something that isn’t my fault.

    I process documentation and payments for teapot orders. Most teapots we sell are mass-produced, but some are very expensive, one-of-a-kind, hand-crafted teapots. I was trained to review the paperwork when I get an order to make sure everything’s okay, and then to process the order in our system when I get the payment. If someone orders a one-of-a-kind teapot, I’m supposed to give the order to my boss after I process the payment so she can follow an extra processing step that I don’t have authorization to do. The people who actually sell the teapots keep track of all this and reserve the teapots in a spreadsheet.

    Someone ordered a one-of-a-kind teapot two weeks ago, and they just paid for it today. When I went to process it, I saw that someone else had ordered and paid for the same teapot a week ago. I told my boss, and she said it’s going to be a big mess, someone is going to be very mad, and that I might get blamed for it because I’m supposed to let her know when I get orders for one-of-a-kind teapots so she can reserve them in our system.

    But she never told me to do that during my training, and she never said anything about me not giving her the one-of-a-kind teapot orders until I got the payments as I’ve been doing the past several months. I pointed this out, and she said “everyone makes mistakes” (presumably implying I made a mistake, not her) and she’ll try to blame it on the sales person since they didn’t reserve the teapot in their spreadsheet.

    What should I do if she or someone else tries to blame me?

    This isn’t the first time she’s suddenly said, “You’re supposed to be doing X,” after she never told me to do X and never said anything about me not doing X for months until it was randomly a problem, and then said “everyone makes mistakes.” I take pride in carefully following procedures (I take meticulous notes) and being detail-oriented, so it really upsets me.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Will the blame come from someone higher up than her? If so, you could say something like “This wasn’t covered in my training and I haven’t been doing it for X months, but now that I know it’s our policy, I will be sure to do it.”

    2. mcfizzle*

      I’d recommend asking for more documentation / protocols in writing so the processes are listed out step by step. I find it’s much easier to CYA myself, and then I can ask for that to be added to the documentation.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Your boss sounds like she really wants someone to blame whenever something goes wrong and doesn’t care if it’s you, the sales person, or anyone but her. That’s a boss problem and you might not be able to fix this. However, it also sounds like there is a process problem in your example, and probably other places if critical pieces of training aren’t documented/passed on to you and are totally dependent on someone remembering to say “hey in this rare case, you have to do Y instead of X.”

      So maybe what you could do is (mentally) deflect the blame by putting the focus on the issues with the process and how they can be fixed. For example, if it’s possible to have a reserved but unpaid-for item still be available for sale, that loophole needs to be fixed by a better process than “hope the salesperson manually marked it off.” And the better process isn’t keep retconning rules to Blame Game’s role every time some rare situation pops up and pretend those rules were there all along. Online shopping usually manages this by allowing you to put stuff in your cart for some amount of time, but it’s not *yours* until you pay up. If someone buys the last one before you pay, then you get a message that the item is now out of stock.

  65. Newbie*

    Question for anyone involved in DC politics or maybe even just recent liberal arts grads in general. I graduated from college in December with a degree in poli sci and am looking to get into progressive politics/advocacy. I am currently in a really fantastic internship program with a political consulting/pr/comms firm and I really love it! both the (virtual) environment and the work itself. I’ve been applying to full time jobs for a while now, trying to secure something by the end of this program (mid-may). My supervisor a semi-recent grad herself said that realistically us current interns might have to work another internship before employers are interested in hiring us full time. Is that true?? This is my 8th internship and third one that is basically full-time (this one is 35 hours a week but others were 40). I really want to start a full-time job and am really not interested in working another internship. I feel like I’m ready to take on an entry-level job but no one is willing to hire people right out of college.

    1. Spearmint*

      Was he speaking to you individually or the group? You may have more experience than most of the interns. Maybe I’m naive, but I would think needing more than 1-2 full time internships to get an entry level job is excessive even in competitive fields (unless it’s a field like acting or tenured professorships where there just aren’t many jobs available, period).

      1. Newbie*

        she was speaking to the group but we’re a pretty experienced bunch. One worked full time for multiple years at a state legislator before taking this internship to get into DC politics and the other is a senior in college with a similar experience level as me.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          That sounds more like advice I’d expect to be given to people brand new to the field, not people with multiple years of experience and/or multiple relevant internships. It’s one thing if it’s about the state of the economy and companies that would otherwise be hiring FT positions only have the budget to hire interns. Or even if there’s such a glut of qualified applicants that interning is the best strategy to get a foot in the door and convert the internship to a FT job (I don’t know if that’s a thing in your field). But experience-wise, your best bet is to keep going for the FT jobs and see what happens.

    2. WellRed*

      Find an actual job. You’re ready, you know you’re ready. There’s a new administration. Go for it!

    3. Fed Too*

      Are you looking specifically to get into DC district politics, general advocacy in DC, or national legislative roles? DC can be hard because there are SO many people looking and most legislators bring people up from their home states and then those people go into locally based advocacy roles after experience working on the Hill. I would start networking now with any groups you’d be interested in and ask what they look for in entry level. So many of these are about connections, but it doesn’t have to be family/money it can also be that woman I met on the kickball team or that guy volunteering at the fundraiser.

  66. JustaTech*

    My relationship with my closest coworker, Betty keeps deteriorating and I don’t know what to do.

    A few months ago I put my foot down with Betty that I don’t want to get texts from her in the evening or on weekends. I said that this is because it stresses me out about work and that I am drawing hard boundaries about work.
    She stopped texting me, but I am starting to think that this was the wrong thing to say to her.

    She has twice now “diagnosed” me as having anxiety (hi, there’s a pandemic on, it’s reasonable to be somewhat anxious, thanks), and has said that is it “driving [her] crazy”. The first time was after I complained that we were being asked to have a group lunch with the CEO who had flown in from a COVID hotspot. (I have a public health degree, I think I am allowed to be concerned, and I wasn’t the only person who was upset at the whole thing.)

    Then this week: we had a huge, multi-day project at work that required coming in to do a thing at very specific times, several of which were late in the day. There was no choice about this, it has to be done this way. My group (Betty and our boss Bob and I) have discussed this several times. Betty reviewed the entire plan and sent me feedback. We went over the schedule in at least two small meetings to make sure that everyone was OK with how this was going to work and to make sure we all understood that it would suck.

    Then Monday afternoon, just as I was packing up from starting the whole process, Betty emails and says that she can’t take the two times she was assigned (the two daytime slots) because that leaves her dog alone for too long. Period. She doesn’t offer which other times would work better, she just says she can’t do those. So Bob and I re-arrange the entire schedule. And she says “no, that isn’t acceptable either because it is too much driving”. So we re-arrange the schedule again. At no point did she *ask* to change the schedule, or suggest a solution. Just “no”. And follows up with another email that the nights are too hard on her sleep schedule, so she can’t do those next time. Which means I have to find someone from another group to take one of her shifts, because she can’t do the two daytime slots because of her dog. Again, she doesn’t offer solutions, just says “no”.

    While we were working she threw away some of the materials I had prepared for the next run of this project. Again, no apology. It’s not a huge deal, they’re not expensive or hard to make, but there wasn’t any reason to throw them out. (Betty loves to get rid of stuff, at work and in her personal life. Fine with me until it’s *my* stuff.)

    Oh, and she was having hot flashes, so she took off almost all of her PPE, including her mask. While we were working in the same room. I actually said “Hey, I’m done here, if you’re good I’m going to head out so you can take your mask off” (which isn’t allowed, but whatever).

    I am a planner and a scheduler. I like to know what the plan is. I’m not an off-the-cuff, play-it-by-ear kind of person. And I’m a rule follower. So having my carefully set schedule just thrown out at the last minute is pretty upsetting. But I didn’t yell at Betty, or tell her no, or anything like that. I didn’t even say anything about the whole no lab coat or mask thing.

    So when she comes back and tells me, again, that I am too anxious and it’s driving her crazy I feel very frustrated and a little gaslighted. (Gaslit?)

    How do I draw healthy boundaries with Betty, while we still have to work closely together? What’s the right phrase to say “hey, there’s a pandemic on and it is messing with all of us so let’s try to have a little more grace for everyone?” “I am doing me best to accommodate you, can you please do the same for me?”

    Because I’m afraid that one of these days I am going to lose it and scream something about Betty being a flaky drama llama. (Which is an unkind but not totally inaccurate description.)

    1. Asenath*

      When someone cancels on me at the last minute (barring some medical crisis or something similar), I used to ask blandly “Who have you found to fill in for you?”. Generally, they didn’t and wouldn’t find a substitute, and it would be my problem, but I felt better for letting them know this was a real annoyance, although it was a rather passive-aggressive way to do it.

      I have no suggestions about the rest of it, aside from maybe either addressing it in the moment “I’m not particularly anxious. Now, what about work?” or letting it go in one ear and out the other. But if Betty screws with my precious schedule, especially at the last minute when she’s had plenty of time to check it, doesn’t help fix the problem and doesn’t even participate in or accept the new schedule, I’d do my best to land as much of the inconvenience as I could in her lap. Make them find a substitute. She doesn’t like the new schedule either? I have no time to prepare another one. We’re going back on the original one and I guess Betty will have to hire a dogsitter. I didn’t always have enough clout to actually make anyone show up once they’d decided not to, but I did my best.

      1. JustaTech*

        Honestly a large part of me is considering just doing without her entirely. Yes, it’s more work for me and a very long day, but it’s not as bad I was afraid it would be. And it punishes her somewhat because she likes being in the lab and she likes being involved, and this would deprive her of both while claiming to be “helping”.

        It would even be a response to her claim that this is all my fault because I am reactive when she does both unhelpful things (the schedule) and things that aren’t actually helpful (setting things up in a way that works for her but does not work for me and then getting upset when I don’t want it).

    2. sequined histories*

      Betty sounds very annoying. Nothing you say is likely to make her less so. It sounds like dealing with her DOES make you anxious.

      I would stay as dull and concrete and gray-rock with her as possible. Not saying anything at all to her about the anxiety comment is a real option. If it becomes a thing she harps on, you might say, “Hey, let’s just focus on (practical work stuff). I don’t want to talk about my emotions and so on at work.”

      Keep it practical. Keep it dull. It sounds like she really foregrounds her own needs and perceptions and enjoys talking about all that stuff in a dramatic way. You are NOT going to change her. Strive for a calm, unflappable demeanor, inwardly and outwardly. You have to deal with her on a practical level, but try to minimize the time and energy you invest in even thinking about her.

      1. JustaTech*

        Oh how I wish I was any good at the gray rock!
        I am a very reactive person (partly personality, partly the ADHD) so it’s very hard for me to keep even a semi-passive face. The year of WFH hasn’t helped, as I haven’t needed to practice the neutral face/no reaction thing.

        (Betty just told me over IM that this is all my fault for being reactive and she feels like she has to walk on eggshells around me, while she physically pokes me in the lab while we’re working with blood and jokes about ruining the entire project.)

        1. tangerineRose*

          “while she physically pokes me in the lab while we’re working with blood and jokes about ruining the entire project” she thinks she’s walking on eggshells while doing that?! So weird. Sorry you’re dealing with this.

    3. WellRed*

      Have you talked to your manager about any if this? I realize lots of times people advocate for ignoring but parts of this have me saying nooooo! wTF?!

      1. JustaTech*

        Bob was right there for all of it. He’s annoyed with Betty too, but, while Bob’s a nice guy and generally a good boss, he’s pretty conflict-adverse.

        And I don’t know what he may or may not have said to her while I wasn’t there.

    4. PollyQ*

      Where is your boss Bob in all this? If I had an employee who’d pulled all those shenanigans with the schedule, I’d be very displeased with her and would at least be addressing it as a problem. (I might not even have let her say “no” to the schedule. Her dog-sitting and driving issues are not something I’d feel necessary to work around.)

      But for you, I don’t think there’s going to be anything you can do to change Betty. Be professional and generally pleasant, but don’t get dragged into discussions of your alleged anxiety. Be a little passive-aggressive, if needed. “I’m sorry you feel that way” is OK when it’s in response to something “You’re too anxious!” I do hope Bob addresses Betty’s problems, but in the meantime, try to give her as little feedback to her drama as you can.

    5. Snarky Librarian*

      Where is your boss Bob when Betty decides she doesn’t want to work the schedule you all compiled? If she comes to you with another schedule change can you just say “Well you’ll have to talk to manager about that, the schedule has been set” and direct her to Bob?

      I’m firmly with you on Team Duh There is a Global Pandemic Causing Everyone Anxiety. When she makes these comments about you being too anxious and making her crazy (!?!) I would just tell her “Huh sorry you feel that way” or “That sounds difficult” in a nice bland tone. Betty sounds like a good candidate for the Gray Rock method of dealing with jerks.

      1. JustaTech*

        Bob was right there getting his schedule all messed up too. The only good thing out of the whole mess was that he got in a round of practice (he hasn’t done this particular process in like 6 years).
        I am hoping he talked to her while I wasn’t in the room, but he’s a conflict-adverse guy and might not have said anything. I will talk to him about what we will do (other than just take her off the schedule and have me do it all, which he probably will veto on safety/good work grounds) if she tries to pull this again.

        I really think it would help if I stopped trying to explain myself to Betty. She clearly is not interested in why I do or do not want a thing a specific way, so it will probably be easier for me to keep an even tone if I just talk less. (I’m not good at that either.)

        1. Reba*

          Yeah, I agree with others that giving her less to work with is the way forward here. You know that, no matter what you say or do, she will find fault with it. So whatever! I’m not exactly sure what you mean by “reactive,” I don’t think you need to have no expressions ever or anything, but just acting cool to her and distantly unruffled (which you can do, because she’s predictable) could help.

          As far as a boundary to try out, since she’s calling you anxious, you could try telling her not to comment on what she thinks your mental state is — that’s just inappropriate. No discussion, no polite request, not even trying to be conciliatory, just, don’t do this.

          I would also ask Bob to keep you apart from her as much as possible. Since you say he is conflict averse, it may help him to have specific requests to help you in this situation.

          Ugh!!!!

    6. Workerbee*

      From what I remember and from your follow up comments here, it sounds like Betty never suffers any consequences, and knows it. And that Bob gets to get away with being “conflict-avoidant.”

      So…even though this might set every nerve and fiber in you screaming at the mere thought, you might have to start making this far more Bob’s problem than yours, and letting things drop or stop instead of fixing them.

      Betty suddenly has a problem with the schedule she agreed to? You have no time to help Bob rearrange it or find a replacement.
      Betty throws away your work? Don’t be the one to replace it.
      Betty doesn’t like your facial expressions and IMs you? Screenshot the hell out of it while not responding or remaining as grey rock as possible.
      Betty armchair diagnoses you? See above.

      This can be incredibly hard since you are not a devious lout. But that type of person depends on nice people to enable them. They’ve learned how through a million micro and macro aggressions. You cut off one avenue to get to you, they’ll chisel out others. Your suffering or whatever feeling(s) you want to call it are a GAME to them, and it’s important to remember that they are doing this by CHOICE.

      I say, time to let the ship burn. Betty is the one making it unsustainable, toxic, and hostile. If you can get her removed, please do.

  67. Pinkie Pie*

    Just an aside- I may have found the runner up for worse boss. I read about someone who was paid in 91,500 pennies covered in oil as his final paycheck with a note that said F-you….

    1. JustaTech*

      A friend of mine worked at a university financial office when some undergrad tried to pay their tuition in pennies as a form of protests against … something.
      They did it on the very last day of the semester to pay, so the office was packed with panicky students, too.

      But it turns out that the university already had a policy in place about people pulling stunts like that (because it had happened before) and they just said “take it back to the bank and stop wasting these other student’s time”.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        But it turns out that the university already had a policy in place about people pulling stunts like that (because it had happened before) and they just said “take it back to the bank and stop wasting these other student’s time”.

        Pennies have special rules about them–they’re the one form of currency you’re allowed to deface or destroy–so it might have worked with $1 bills, silver or golden dollars, or the like.

  68. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

    Anyone have advice for a grandboss who gets infatuated with a process or product that involves a massive uptick in busywork?

    I’ve tried explaining how it’s going to kill productivity, and since there’s no more revenue, it’s going to mean staffing up while salaries go down, which will exacerbate our already-bad problems with personnel turnover and brain drain. It involves structural changes to assets, so we can’t just abandon it when it goes south; it’ll need decommissioned (which I’m concerned we’ll lack the expertise to accomplish by the time we accept failure). Our accuracy and reliability are going to take a big hit. Since my department/team is mission-critical, it could put the company out of business if things go badly enough.

    Is there a persuasive way to push back on such infatuation?

    1. 1234*

      What are the positives that the grandboss sees with the new process or product?

      “We will be more efficient in Y!” “That’s good but that makes Z take even longer, which outweighs the shortened time for Y!”

      Is there a way to write the grandboss an email that outlines everything you’ve told us but start off with “I appreciate your enthusiasm for New Product/Process. I agree it will [Good thing] but these Negatives will also happen if we switch over.”

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        What are the positives that the grandboss sees with the new process or product?

        Grandboss has bought a lie from the vendor’s Sales Rep* hook, line, and sinker. The lie is that the process will decouple two events, but even a cursory investigation into the details exposes this as laughably absurd (it’s on the order of requiring employees to consume helium pills so they’ll be able to fly and the staircases can then be repurposed as more office space).

        Is there a way to write the grandboss an email that outlines everything you’ve told us but start off with “I appreciate your enthusiasm for New Product/Process. I agree it will [Good thing] but these Negatives will also happen if we switch over.”

        I sent that email to my supervisor, who claims to have passed it on. I believe her, but all evidence is that the analysis was DoA. It’s especially trying to me, because we actually tried to implement this lie before, it failed spectacularly, I was part of the team that finally put it out of its misery at significant expense and effort, and grandboss was in charge during that failure, soup-to-nuts.

        *My father’s career started in Sales. It’s literally the only thing holding me back from using Sales and Lying interchangeably at this point.

        1. 1234*

          I t’s especially trying to me, because we actually tried to implement this lie before, it failed spectacularly, I was part of the team that finally put it out of its misery at significant expense and effort, and grandboss was in charge during that failure, soup-to-nuts.

          …so how does Grandboss not remember ALL of this?! And wants a repeat performance. Oh man…

          1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            …so how does Grandboss not remember ALL of this?! And wants a repeat performance. Oh man…

            I’d have to speculate, which is irresponsible, so I’ll minimize it.

            I believe it’s 33% that the lie is an answer he wants to hear, 33% that the Sales Rep has credibility because the rep doesn’t work for us, and 33% that the issues were 3-5 years ago and he wasn’t involved with them on a day-to-day basis. The company has had a culture of deriving more credibility from the identity of the messenger than the content of the message. (Cf. We somehow believe that Windows is secure and Linux is not).

        2. PX*

          Hmm, did the email actually say that you’ve tried this before and it didnt work? Do you have some of the old evidence that you can show?

          Are there others you can get on board to make it more of a group effort?

          The less ethical option would be to use some of those old CIA tactics of using bureaucracy to its full effect to try and stall the implementation and see if you cant get them to forget about it/make it too expensive to do/etc?

          1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            Hmm, did the email actually say that you’ve tried this before and it didnt work? Do you have some of the old evidence that you can show?

            I’m a Programmer; I dredged up the old code bases, tasks and complaints from former customers (about the very benefit this was told to deliver, no less), and the tasks from where we decommissioned it last time to document those costs. I even managed to get the numbers from Quality Control showing that clients for whom we implemented this process had thrice the quality costs of regular clients.

            The less ethical option would be to use some of those old CIA tactics of using bureaucracy to its full effect to try and stall the implementation and see if you cant get them to forget about it/make it too expensive to do/etc?

            That’s a higher-energy version of what the team around me wants to do; basically ignore it until it goes away. The company is privately held, so I can’t sell our stock short. The platform being niche is the only thing hindering me from moving on quickly.

            1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

              I even managed to get the numbers from Quality Control showing that clients for whom we implemented this process had thrice the quality costs of regular clients.

              The company is more revenue focused than profit focused. We have clients we subsidize because the focus is on their revenue, and not the cost in personnel to service them and concessions to retain them.

    2. Girasol*

      Will it take awhile to implement? If you can even delay a little while until the rosy glow of the great new idea wears off you’d have a better chance of being able to state your objections and not being labelled “not a good team player” or “afraid of change” or some such.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        Will it take awhile to implement?

        If we take the instructions literally, I don’t think it will ever complete. I joke that’s our silver lining–but the current demand is demonstration of progress.

        Though I wasn’t witness to the conversation, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Sales Rep pulled a “No True Scotsman” reply to the issues from the last implementation.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Persuasive? No. But it did remind me of the time a few of the most senior, well-respected engineers took time out to calculate and present a series of numbers to the newly appointed VP: numbers that illustrated how much time/money was being spent on the VP’s seemingly endless need for pointless cosmetic changes to the presentations we (the many project owners) created for him weekly. He had been asking us to make layout, color, font, and sizing tweaks to our PPT charts every week to match his latest whim, meanwhile cutting budget and staff and not allowing us to touch the actual content (and therefore not update our schedules and deliverables to match reality).

      Result: The VP didn’t change anything, the flagship product we were all working on was killed, the senior engineers left to go work somewhere else, and the VP was laterally “promoted” out of the country and I haven’t heard his name since.

      We’re, uh, possibly facing a very similar situation now – new players but same blind infatuation to a process that’s gonna cost us. This time I might be one of the senior people who bails. :-(

  69. AnonForThis*

    I’ve only ever quit a job once (to go to grad school), so I don’t really know how to handle my current situation.

    I’ve worked for Big Corporate Law Firm in a mid-level admin support role for ~4 years. Unfortunately, it’s never been a great fit, and I was promoted into a job that was more in line with my graduate degree training, but ultimately not a better fit culturally. I’m just not meant for corporate law, even as a non-lawyer (I’m also not a legal assistant or paralegal, if that matters). I don’t care about the content of the work at all (corporate and business law in general sucks) and the days I cry at work outnumber the days I enjoy myself at all.

    I just found out my immediate supervisor is leaving for another organization, and I support this completely, but my department saw a 25% personnel cut this past summer (COVID layoffs) and I’m not confident my supervisor will be replaced. I’m also realizing how much my supervisor made this job tolerable for me, and I’m not confident my team will receive sufficient support once she leaves.

    So I want to quit. I also don’t want to leave my very small team, already overburdened with work that we’ve had to do since the layoffs (plus the astronomical amount of work done by my supervisor), in the lurch when I go, but I think to an extent that will be unavoidable.

    It’s a terrible idea generally to quit a job without a new one in the wings, especially during a pandemic), and my job isn’t toxic per se, I just hate it. So I feel like I don’t have a good enough reason to quit and don’t know how to explain it to my grandboss when I do. I do have enough in my savings to live on for a year, plus I could get on my partner’s insurance theoretically. So financially I’m in decent shape. But still…

    I feel like I need permission to quit, which really only I can give myself. I know I’ll get a good reference from my supervisor, but I don’t want to overburden my remaining colleagues. At the same time, I want to get out as soon as possible. I initially told myself I’d resign a month from the day I decided to quit, but now just thinking about going back to work on Monday makes me want to cry.

    Does anyone have advice? I’ve read posts on this site on the topic, but honestly I could use some commiseration.

    1. Asenath*

      It’s not your fault if your co-workers have too much work to do when you leave, and it’s not your responsibility to fix the problem. That’s up to your employer. And life’s too short to stay at a job that makes you that miserable – at one time, I was miserable in a job. I was really completely unsuited to the work; it wasn’t that there was anything wrong with my pay or benefits or employer. I eventually had to leave, but I put it off as long as I could because I was worried about finances and also thought I’d have a lot of difficulty finding something else since I wanted /needed to leave the industry and had no training and little experience in anything else. I don’t brood over the past, but I sometimes think about it to learn from it. And I concluded long ago that I waited too long to leave that job. If I were in the same position again, I’d get out as soon as I realized that I was miserable, and my best efforts weren’t enough to make it likely I’d ever enjoy or even be contented with the job.

      1. Oaktree*

        I know, but I work with good people (my team, anyway; the legal staff are hit and miss) and I feel awful, especially knowing they’re already just as anxious as me (they just like the work more).

        How soon after deciding to quit should someone give notice?

        1. AnonForThis*

          If the above reply (and this one) could be deleted, that would be great; I accidentally replied under the wrong name. I wanted to remain anonymous about this.

        2. Asenath*

          Depending on where you live and if you have a contract with different rules, you usually give notice 2 weeks before your last day – it isn’t determined by when you decide to quit. If there’s no particular reason for you to stay on, two weeks after you decision and hand in your notice is a fine time to leave. I gave a lot more notice in my last job, but that was in a situation in which I trusted my employer not to force me out early, and I liked my job and wanted to stay to a particular date for financial reasons. If I had a job I was absolutely miserable at, and no money reasons to stay there, I’d give my 2 week notice as soon as I was sure I was going to quit. I’d have no reason to do otherwise. And you don’t need to give a reason for quitting. All a resignation letter has to say is “I will be leaving my position as llama wrangler on DATE”. If you’re feeling good about the employer, you can add “I have enjoyed working here, and thank you for all your support while I was here” or something similar, but that’s not necessary even if it is true. You can always tell selected co-workers personally that you’ve enjoyed working with them, if you want to. That doesn’t need to go in a resignation letter. I’d also keep it positive – tempting as it is, I also wouldn’t add “The workload is insane” or “My supervisor is lazy and incompetent” or anything like that. I’d focus on getting out and leaving them to solve their problems when I’m gone.

    2. AllieMiles*

      Quit if you need to! Or job search, find another job, then quit. As long as you have a plan in place to deal with the usual issues of not having a job (insurance, money), just do what will make you feel right. Companies don’t deserve loyalty, the company would not give it to you if they wanted to lay you off. You don’t owe them to continue working even though they’ve removed more staff — that’s a them problem, not a you problem.

    3. PollyQ*

      I’ll borrow something from advice columnist Dear Sugar (aka Wild author Cheryl Strayed), who says about relationships: “Wanting to leave is enough.”

      The only reason you need to quit a job is that you no longer wish to have it. That’s it. If you & your partner are OK with the choice, then all you have to do is tell your employer that you are resigning, and that you’re planning to make your last day [whenever, but probably 2 weeks is a good idea]. You don’t need to prove to anyone that your reasons are valid, and if you get any pushback from your current employer, you can just say, “This is the decision that works best for me.”

      Things will probably be a little harder for your colleagues, but that’s working life. People leave jobs all the time, and their former employers co-workers muddle through. I’ve worked in departments that lost 30% of their employees in one mass layoff, and those of us left behind coped with it.

    4. Disenchanted w Capitalism*

      You can quit. You say you worry about your coworkers – if you knew one of them felt the way you did, would you want them to continue being miserable just for the sake of saving you stress? Or how would you feel if one of them left before you did, putting themselves first while you’re hanging on for their sake?

      You need to put yourself and your own mental health first. No one else is going to prioritize these things. You deserve a job that doesn’t make you cry on a regular basis. You deserve happiness, and it sounds like you will not find it in this job.

      As for what to say to grandboss – personal reasons, health reasons (because mental health is health), burnout. Whichever you feel most comfortable with.

      I may be projecting big time because I was in a somewhat similar position and decided to quit (three days left in my notice period). Not gonna lie, I feel pangs of guilt and remorse, but I also haven’t had to have my partner peal me off the floor from stress since I gave notice. I think once you leave you will feel like you can breath again; the short-term pain will be worth it in the long run.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I have to imagine feeling guilty for a little while is far better than nearly daily tears of misery for the foreseeable future.

        My former manager decided to retire and gave like 2 months notice. He’d been unhappy for a while and was just trying to gut out his last couple of years. The first notice month coincided with the annual two weeks’ holiday in December. The first day back in the office after the break, he moved up his last day to be the very next day. He just couldn’t do it anymore, not even knowing it would just be a few more weeks.

        Recognize that if your body and mind are saying you’re done, you are ready to be done. Give yourself the gift of freedom.

  70. Shouting on Video Calls*

    Does anyone have tips on how to stop shouting when on a video call? When I end a call the sudden quiet makes me realize that I had been talking unnecessarily loud. My microphone, speakers & computer are all good quality, so it’s not a technology issue, and my colleagues all have the same (or similar quality) equipment. I don’t need to yell, but I do, and I’m not recognizing it in the moment.

    1. SunnySideUp*

      Haha, I have the same problem. I don’t know what it is, but as I’m the the call, my volume just keeps drifting up. Have you tried headphones that have a mic? Something about having the sound right in my ears helps me keep my voice down.

      1. Shouting on Video Calls*

        I have not tried headphones, but I’m willing to! A colleague uses headphones with a mic and I can see how those are working for her. Funny that I’ve seen her with her headphones on calls but never considered them for myself!

    2. Hunybee*

      Have you tried using headphones? I find that when I have mine on in meetings I’m less likely to talk super loud because I don’t hear all of the ambient sound, and I hear my own voice more accurately.

      1. Shouting on Video Calls*

        Headphones seem like a great idea! I see the point you and SunnySideUp are making about having the sound from both sides of the conversation closer to me. Headphones would definitely accomplish that and I’m willing to give them a try!

    3. Sylvan*

      Try to cut down on noise pollution around you. Keep the volume up on your computer or speakers. When I feel like the video call is quiet or there are background noises (that my colleagues can’t hear), I might speak more loudly to compensate, mistakenly.

      If you feel that you’re full-blown yelling rather than just talking more loudly than usual, pay attention to how your throat feels when you talk and after a call. Is it scratchy or sore? Next time, try relaxing your neck, head, and shoulders; breathing with your diaphragm; and talking with your voice “in” your chest instead of your throat. You can look for guides online to “projecting your voice” to learn more about, well, being clear without shouting.

      Unrelated to your video calls, this skill also helps you make your voice louder without rising or feeling uncomfortable. It’s what gives Teacher Voice its power and what makes actors’ voices carry in a theater.

      1. Shouting on Video Calls*

        Thank you, these are excellent suggestions too! Yes my throat is scratchy after video calls. Interesting point, because when I’ve been a big work related events (pre-covid but will happen again once we’re back in the office) and everyone is casually mingling I find that people don’t hear me over the din of the crowd so I have to really yell to be heard and my throat is sore by the time I leave. Hmmmm, I’m seeing a possible connection here.

      2. linger*

        Speaker volume up can result in echoes and feedback for all other participants, so seriously, don’t do that, but do use headphones instead (which removes all possibility of feedback problems too).

    4. Ari*

      Have you tried turning *down* the volume on your computer? When you’re speaking with someone IRL, if they speak softly, usually you will too. So if the people on the call are turned to a normal or even quiet-normal volume, maybe that will naturally bring your voice down. Not all the way down so you can’t hear them of course, but low enough that you do have to listen a little. (you said it isn’t a problem for you, but for others reading, the quality of the sound can also make you want to raise the volume of your voice/volume of the speakers to make up for it)

      Think also about your ambient noise. Not just if you have music playing, but the blowing of the air condtioner, or the dishwasher running add to background noise that would be filtered out with good programming/equipment, but not from your ears, and you’ll feel the need to talk over it. Noise cancelling headset might help if you can’t directly impact the environment.

      1. Shouting on Video Calls*

        Good suggestions, I’ll try both! My boss tends to be boisterous, and now that I think about it, I try to match his volume level when we talk. Making him quieter on my speaker might help make me quieter when I talk.

    5. Mimmy*

      I have a similar problem. I wear earbuds on my video calls, so my voice sounds muffled to me, probably making me talk louder. My husband also says I’m loud. It doesn’t help that I can be loud in general because of my hearing impairment :/

  71. Drago Cucina*

    Warning this is long.

    I’m in some mourning over the institution I left last year. My new position is great. It’s nice to be praised for doing my job rather than being criticized. I left primarily because of the dysfunction and petty politics of the board and politicians. I didn’t feel too guilty because the assistant director was/is amazing. She stepped in, we had lots of informal conversations when she needed my knowledge or feedback. Over the years she’s won major recognition, including being on the cover of the major professional journal with an accompanying prize.

    The board decided to hire someone else to be the new director. Fine. Institutions need to grow and change. The assistant director didn’t take it personally. She was supportive. Then out of the blue two months later, the board asked her to resign because “they’re moving in a different direction.” No corrective action meetings. No performance improvement plan. The staff had been promised by the board chair that no one would have their position cut for at least a year.

    Fortunately I was able to refer her for a position at my new company. Not in the same type of organization, but translating everything in our work vocabulary, she’s done it all. I was told by my boss that the interviews had been concluded but they were going to give her a courtesy interview. Interview in the morning. They offered the job in the afternoon. She’s thriving and I’m seen as a genius for referring her.

    Another department head at old institution just left for an academic environment. Again, interviewed and hired within the same day. He left because the new director cut professional development support, including the program he is set to complete in May. Another department head was told that she was not allowed to have every other Friday afternoon off to take her mother to chemo.

    My family has given time and money to this institution and my husband seriously wants to demand answers. I’m trying to figure out to deal with an institution I support that’s going through major negative changes, without bringing in my own work history. I don’t want it to be just the way I did things. But, treating the staff like dirt is breaking my heart.

    1. MissBliss*

      If your husband is upset as a donor, I think he could very easily reach out to request answers and express disapproval. If I were in your shoes, I might not personally want to be the person, because I think it may skew their perspective – oh, MissBliss is only saying this because she left and she’s bitter. But your husband might have enough distance.

      I’m sorry, this sounds like a frustrating situation.

      1. Drago Cucina*

        Thank you. I don’t want to be that bitter person. I felt I had gotten past it and then something else hits.

  72. stephistication1*

    Anybody see a benefit to using the reMarkable 2 tablet? I’m not considering a purchase, just wanting to see what others think about the product. Other than being able to physically write, how is it different from OneNote?!?!

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’ve never looked at that product before, but I use the app Notability on my tablet which is pretty similar. It looks like the primary appeal to the reMarkable 2 is that it’s a digital option that has a paper feel and a super long battery life, neither of which most tablets with more elaborate features do – basically it’s trying to hit the sweet spot for note-taking that’s more tech-y than pen and paper, but not a full-fledged tablet or laptop. I expect that you could probably move notes from the reMarkable 2 into OneNote – it’s not necessarily a storage system by itself, but more a means of creating your documents to go into your storage system. At least, that’s how it looks to me.

  73. voluptuousfire*

    What are your pet peeves about job listings? My biggest one is logically inconsistent job descriptions–i.e. jobs that list the title as Executive Assistant but the ad otherwise says “administrative assistant.” Granted both terms can be almost interchangeable, it’s not what it’s being advertised as.

    I applied for a role with the title Widget Operations Partner–where you’ll handle the widget scheduling and other operations related to that department. I got a request for a phone screen for a widget coordinator role from the same company. Technically speaking, that’s not what I applied to. After some further research, the company wasn’t for me but of course I can’t reply to bow out since the request came from a no-reply email. :sigh:

    1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      Required Education: $100M
      Required Experience: 100+ years
      Compensation: $32M annually, some benefits (we’ll disclose them during your onboarding).

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Required: 10 years experience in a tool that has only been around for 4 years.

    3. RC Rascal*

      Inflated job title. I’m a Director. At my organization that is a very big role.

      At lots of other places it’s an over inflated title for a manager with a limited scope of responsibility.

      Recruiters keep contacting me about that latter & it’s just a waste of time.

      1. JustaTech*

        There’s a research hospital in my area that is like that, in every possible department. What I would call a research associate job they call “senior scientist II”. What my friend called “junior HR admin assistant” they called “HR professional”.
        Probably the only titles that are correct are the clinical ones (doctors, nurses, respiratory techs, etc), because those are licensed by the state.

      2. Mimmy*

        Reminds me a little of a job I had a long time ago. The title was Teapot Data Coordinator… all I did was data entry (although later I was given authority to verify the data entry of the other data entry staff. The supervisor called us data clerks. At least the organization was up front about the nature of the work.

    4. Former Young Lady*

      “Must be detailed-oriented (sic)” — because we sure as heck aren’t.

      “Excellent written and verbal communication” — written communication is also verbal, because it uses words; we are just afraid to use the word “oral” because we are perverts.

      “Need a rock star/ninja/guru” — we are trying to recruit young people who will work way too hard for too little pay.

      “Must be able to lift (ridiculously high number) pounds” (for any job that isn’t manual labour or delivery driving) — we are only interested in hiring men.

      No salary information at all, or insultingly low salary information, or hourly rates listed as “up to $X,” meaning “that’s our pay ceiling and you’ll never hit it.”

    6. 1234*

      “Work hard play hard” = Don’t expect to have a life outside of work. I hope you like team drinking events and ping pong tables.

      “Must have 3 – 5 years of experience. This role is entry level.”

      “Our company name is Top Secret because we don’t want you to know who we are unless we call you for an interview. You just need to know the name of the role. You should be happy to be a Llama Groomer no matter where.”

    7. D3*

      I’ve seen this twice in the last six weeks or so, from different companies:
      “We have a corporate culture of fitness, with an on site gym for daily workouts, and department meetings on the run. We love to have employee groups run 5k or marathons together!”
      “If you love to run, work out, and push your body to the limit you’ll fit right in here!”
      Neither of these companies was in a fitness related industry. They are tech companies.
      Translation: We only want young skinny employees.
      Rules me out.

      1. JustaTech*

        Young, skinny, healthy dudes.

        Because a lot of good exercise clothing for women is too snug and too short to be “work appropriate”. (When I used to run into work early in the morning I would make a beeline for the locker room because exercise clothes are on the lower boundary of “work appropriate”, and I wear a shirt to run. And my observation is that the faster and farther a person runs (by choice) the less clothing they tend to wear.

        I did not need to see my coworker in his super short cross country running shorts.

      2. voluptuousfire*

        That sounds like my own personal version of hell. I’m not into exercise as it is but holy cow…ugh. That’s just gross.

    8. MissDisplaced*

      Well I just went though this recently where the posting didn’t match what the hiring manager actually needed and wanted.

      For example: Advertised as a “Specialist” role with 10 years experience. In the interview it became clear the hiring manager really needed an executive admin type person with about 20% of the Specialist part thrown in. Heavy Admin duties.
      I wanted 80% Specialist with 20% or less of the Admin parts. Not a fit.

    10. Cookies For Breakfast*

      Seconding, thirding, etc. the mentions of no salary listed.

      I find a lot of job ads out there infuriatingly vague. Position described in three bullet points and twenty buzzwords, little idea of day to day responsibilities, and not even a hint of what industry you’d be working in. I get recruiters don’t want to disclose company names, but isn’t it counterintuitive to leave out details that help people decide if they want to apply?

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        Probably because the recruiter and hiring manager have no idea how to do the job or evaluate the job done.

    11. Lumen*

      The insistence that everyone be “passionate”.

      No salary listed
      Lowball salary ranges for the job description.
      Salary ranges like “65,000 – 110,000”.

      Walk/stand/lift/etc. requirements that exclude anyone with a physical disability when the job description is for someone to sit at a computer all day.

    12. voluptuousfire*

      Another one–job descriptions for “hybrid” roles. Say a recruiting coordinator role that handles recruitment admin, office management, some HR stuff, and exec assistant roles for a C-level exec. Why?

    13. katz*

      – No salary listed
      – Saying they have “great benefits” but don’t list those either
      – Job title has Coordinator or Manager (not Assistant), but job is listed as entry-level
      – Requires 3-5 years of experience but entry level

    14. t*

      Great question. I have several, but a standout are those that are temporary, one year, part time, and require a Master’s degree and at least 5 years’ experience.

      I mean…come ON.

  74. SunnySideUp*

    Haha, I have the same problem. I don’t know what it is, but as I’m the the call, my volume just keeps drifting up. Have you tried headphones that have a mic? Something about having the sound right in my ears helps me keep my voice down.

    1. SunnySideUp*

      Oops, technical difficulties. Definitely thought I was replying to something else. Side note, does anyone know how to delete their own comment on here?? Haha

  75. PeachCube*

    I have been on 12 interviews the past month; they have all gone well but I continuously get low-balled with salary or the company isn’t a good culture fit. I left a toxic job of 4 years (that led me on with advancement opportunities) for a bait-and-switch job. It has really taken a toll on me. I recently interviewed for a supervisor role since I have ample experience in my field and that would be my next step for advancement. Both interviewers said that I would be a great fit for the position. How can I stay hopeful in the meantime?

    1. AJ*

      Hi PeachCube I wrote almost the same question just below here. Hopefully we both get advice each other can use!

      1. PeachCube*

        Hi AJ! I’m so sorry you are also going through this :( I also used career coach advice (on YT) and I’m so glad I did because it’s landed me so many job interviews. The fact we are getting interviews is a great thing. Let’s hope the right organizations offer us some jobs soon!

  76. MadeUpScoreandPointsDontMatter*

    Can anyone provide me with perspective on this situation? Just found out a co-worker has been paying employees’ mileage incorrectly (to their detriment”) for a year. Not because they were told to but…because they just decided on a whim to change the mileage formula(!?!) A) does this happen a lot in for profit companies? B) is this wage theft? C) wouldn’t someone be fired for this normally?
    My boss is somewhat irritated (has to explain a big expenditure, the bottom line is smaller) but there seems to be no move toward preventing this from happening again.

    1. CupcakeCounter*

      A) no but not all companies use the IRS recommended calc so amounts can vary (for example, my company is international so they use a standard by country that is managed by an outside expense reporting tool)
      B) not really wage theft as it is an expense reimbursement and not something required to be paid
      C) depends on how things came about but I would guess most places would issue a warning that the policy is X and if they deviate again their job will be on the line. I would think there would be a few exceptions for highly regulated industries but your boss’s reaction leads me to believe you aren’t in one of those.

      Is you coworker also refusing to eat company pizza and carrying equipment for blocks instead of calling an Uber? Because I’m guessing it was someone who discovered that mileage reimbursement isn’t a regulated amount and employers can technically pay whatever they want (most just use the IRS recommendation) and did some “research” and didn’t run it up the chain to make their P&L look better.

      1. MadeUpScoreandPointsDontMatter*

        The rogue payroll admin (RPA) has no stake in P&L but our joint supervisor does (re:year end bonus). Now I’m rethinking this whole thing. RPA isn’t much of a go-getter or thinker but our JS is. And oddly enough, the “change” in reimbursement started right after a COVID related furlough…hmmm….

      2. PollyQ*

        In some states (e.g. California), all employee business expenses are required to be paid by the employer, so it might well be illegal, if not strictly “wage theft.” Even if states where that’s not the case, if the company has said they’ll reimburse the expense at a certain, that might be a legally binding agreement, so still a big problem for the employer.

        In response to the original questions, I’m sure it happens more often than never, but I bet it doesn’t happen that often, mostly because it’s so petty and probably not that big an expense, proportionally, for most companies. And I would absolutely fire someone for pulling a stunt like this, although having read AAM for many years, wouldn’t be that all shocked if the person weren’t.

    2. Lifelong student*

      So what I think you are saying it that the employees have suffered from being under reimbursed! If I were one of those employees and was not paid the amount I was entitled to under company policy, I would be irate. Is the additional reimbursement the big expenditure?
      If the books are not closed for the prior year, that could be accrued to the prior years expense as a payable which would move the expense to the bottom line in the appropriate period.
      Sometimes these things happen- so even if the books are closed there can be a prior period adjustment.
      Do people get fired for such errors? Sometimes! At a minimum, it would mean someone needs to be checking things a little closer.

      1. MadeUpScoreandPointsDontMatter*

        Thank you for your last sentence. Yes, we have been under-reimbursing those employees for a year. My question is the same as yours: how did this get missed? Is no one looking at these numbers? What is going on here?

        1. MadeUpScoreandPointsDontMatter*

          Whoops! And yes, we just closed our year end financial audit. The large chunk of back pay will have to go on the current fiscal year’s books.

          1. Lifelong student*

            Did the auditors find it? If financials haven’t been issued, it could be an adjustment now if not. It would have to be discussed with the auditors. If they didn’t think it was material, they may not require the adjustment- but it might be a finding on failure of internal controls. That is not a good thing. Even though it WAS a failure, it might be better in the long run to have it be a problem in the current year. Lots of perception issues here. (By the way- can you tell I am a CPA?) If it makes you mileage expense be an issue next year for the financials it could come up again. Best to make sure there are systems in place to avoid questions about internal controls. That way it would not be an internal control finding in the future.
            Sorry that all sounds very audit technical- but the long and the short is- better internal controls are needed!

            1. MadeUpScoreandPointsDontMatter*

              I love that you are a CPA. And thank you for helping put this in perspective. I was most likely having an emotional reaction to (what I perceive) as an ethical failing to our employees and looking for a reason. My take away is: it’s not ok (but not illegal) and reflects a management/ process issue (of which there are many).

  77. AJ*

    How do I deal with job hunt disappointment and fatigue? I’ve worked with a career coach since January to rework my materials for switching from a technical contributor to a project manager role. I’ve gotten several “in person” interviews but no offers yet! Each one is very disappointing. Any ideas on how to get over the short term rejection each time?

    1. 1234*

      Remember that job hunts are competitive. You will land where you need to be. Take every interview as practice/find ways to improve. Sometimes, it takes more than “several” interviews to be hired. You are at least getting in front of interviewers so that means your application materials are good.

    2. PollyQ*

      Two things:
      1) You’re getting interviews, which means you’re doing well! Try to congratulate yourself on those successes.
      2) It sounds like you haven’t worked as a dedicated project manager before? If that’s the case, then finding a job is going to be harder because employers are almost always going to want to hire someone who’s done the job before. That does not mean you’re doomed! It just means that you can expect your job search to be longer, that’s all. You’ve only been searching a couple months, so tell yourself the process will take a while, and keep plugging away.

      Good luck!

  78. BackToTheOffice - Now!*

    We have a couple of employees who are essentially refusing to come back to the office FT. Both have had at least 1 dose of the vaccine (and had Covid in the last few months) and while parts of their jobs can be done from home, others cannot (they currently come in one day/week usually only a half day). To compound matters, neither are working “traditional” work hours so they are getting very difficult to get a hold of when needed.
    To make it more complicated, each of these employees hold TONS of institutional knowledge that would cause serious issues if they quit (lots of turnover in the department in the last couple years). The one who would cause the most hardship if they left is also prone to pettiness and has regularly given silent treatment to other coworkers and deleted/thrown away “how to” documents and due to the fact that our team is constantly running around putting out fires, we haven’t had lots of time to cross train. Their leaving will cause a serious disaster for those of us remaining.

    Before Covid, WFH was absolutely not a thing here except in very rare occasions – and for these two positions, never…the company had to buy them laptops. Boss is willing to wait a few more weeks until they have had the second shot then require they be in the office at least 3-days a week AND work core hours again (10-3). It truly is causing significant hardships having them offsite but there is a real concern that one or both will up and quit when told they have to come back to the office which would be a worse problem.

    What would you do?

    1. Pascall*

      Start cross training! There’s no real reason why one or two people should hoard institutional knowledge. Document down things that you’ll need to know if/when they leave, because even if you accommodated their WFH wishes, they could still leave for any reason. Illness, better opportunity, retirement, etc.

      But I ultimately, if the boss wants them back in the office, there’s nothing you can do besides prep for their departure if you’re certain that they’ll leave. So that’s what I’d start getting ready to do as soon as possible. Figure out what they know that you will still need to know when they’re gone.

      If they refuse to cooperate now, then there’s no reason to think that they’d cooperate in the future either and that’s a serious problem that needs to be addressed. Making sure your skillset provides job security is one thing, but actively sabotaging your coworkers’ ability to take things over for you in your absence is another. It may be worth discussing with the employee who is throwing away “How To” documents because that seems petty to the point of destructive and not something that I’d tolerate, quite frankly. (Personally, part of my job is to ensure that everyone has guides on how to do a variety of tasks in case people are absent or depart for whatever reason. To me, any individual who actively works against this sharing of knowledge has insecurities that need to be addressed and it needs to be determined WHY they have those insecurities. It could be them, but if your department does indeed have high turnover, that’s probably part of the problem.)

      For what it’s worth, I would love a job that only required me 3 days a week in the office from 10-3 LOL. That still seems like a good deal.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Start cross training! There’s no real reason why one or two people should hoard institutional knowledge.

        This. No matter what happens afterward, this is huge. If they balk, you can say “if you’re not available 8-5, we need to know how to do X without you.” Which possibly implies it’s okay for them to not be available 8-5, giving them an incentive! ;-)

    2. RC Rascal*

      They are unlikely to quit over this. The job market isn’t that great. Also , institutional knowledge tends to be overrated.

      Bossy needs to explain that once they are have their second shot they need to be back in the office, no ifs, ands, or buts.

      IMO these two are taking advantage of the situation.

      1. WellRed*

        Agreed! Just because you worry they will quit doesn’t mean they will. I’m unclear on why at least one of them hasn’t been Fired! Already. Hold them accountable and cross train. If they can’t do that, FIRE away. I assume your company is not currently tasked with curing Covid or cancer or brokering world peace?

      2. MadeUpScoreandPointsDontMatter*

        See Alison’s column about being held hostage by employees. Thats what this sounds like.

      3. Stumped*

        That depends on the industry. There is expected to be a huge surge in hiring. I also have employees threatening to not come back and I’m sure they could find remote work should they want it quite easily. So I’m grappling with the same thing. I personally plan to ease people back in the office but not full time. Anyone who doesn’t want to come back can go.

      4. Queen Anon*

        Second shot + two weeks – they’re not fully effective until two weeks later. (If that’s their actual concern, anyway. If their concern isn’t actually about theirs – and other’s – health at all, I guess the two weeks wouldn’t make a difference to them. Though it might to theirs – and other’s – health.)

      5. Malarkey01*

        Idk that I’d go so far as to say they are taking advantage- at least not in a negative way. Often, when you’ve built up a lot of capital and experience and something of value at an organization you do have some leverage. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with an employee negotiating for better conditions, and I think a lot of us are going to be pushing for way more liberal WFH, going forward.

        Then the company decides whether or not the cost of losing these people outweighs the cost of their accommodations, and employees decide whether the salary and benefits outweigh the downsides.
        I would put together the actual business needs and see why it could or couldn’t accommodate what they want and point out the actual problems it’s causing for the business (and hopefully the problems aren’t that it’s not fair or we like butts in seats where we can see em).

    3. Girasol*

      Have you discussed it with them? Do you understand why they don’t want to come back? Is there something you could do to change their minds about whatever they think stands in their way? Do they understand why you think they do need to come back? Have you asked how they could become more available and how they could get the work done that is usually done in the office? (They’re asking for a privilege, so you could reasonably ask them to solve your business problems with it if they want to earn it.) Could you manage if they were part time WFH and would they agree to be part time in the office? In reading your post I wonder if the the matter isn’t quite as black and white as it appears.

    4. introverted af*

      You didn’t mention it here, so I feel the need to say – make sure they haven’t just had their second shot, but have also waited out the necessary period to get to immunity if you’re going to make them come back into the office.

    5. Maggie*

      Start crossing training and maybe preparing job descriptions if you need to list their job. The ‘petty’ document deleter sounds like a horrible person who should be fired anyway. They’re refusing to do their jobs or even be available at all.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        The vaccinations are a red herring. You have two employees who are not doing their jobs as it is and (at least in one case) actively sabotaging the work and acting highly unprofessional to boot. The unprofessional saboteur needs to be fired, IMO. In any event, they’re already causing problems and if they’re not following the rules now about coming in the minimum number of hours to do their required-in-office work, that’s not going to change when they’re asked to come back to the office more frequently.

        Can I guess that cross-training has never been an option because one or both of these knowledge hoarders haven’t allowed it or followed through when asked in the past? Whatever your course of action would be if these two quit or disappeared, do that. It will be painful for a few weeks or months while other people get up to speed, but the long run will be far better for everyone. I’d also guess the high turnover issue would suddenly disappear as well (nothing drives out good people like watching a jerk be valued for their knowledge regardless of their behavior).

    6. allathian*

      Start cross-training now and prepare for them to quit if you insist on bringing them back to the office.

      The saboteur should have been fired long ago, that sort of petty malice is absolutely intolerable, and when it’s tolerated, it’s a sign that there’s something wrong with the company culture even if it isn’t toxic. The silent treatment is also not good, if it makes it harder for other employees to work. That said, this is not the same as sticking to business and never talking about anything except work, which is and should be okay.

      Any company or department that has a lot of turnover, unless it’s a matter of training entry-level employees for more skilled jobs, is on some level dysfunctional. You’re being held hostage by those two employees because you’ve spent all your time putting out fires when you should’ve built systems to prevent those fires in the first place.

    7. Dancing Otter*

      “Deleted/thrown away” process documentation!? Scroll up and read about internal control audit findings (mileage reimbursement issue). This is the piece I would make nonnegotiable.

      1. Everybody in the department needs to provide Boss with copies of all their process and procedure documentation for review by {insert date}. And start with providing a list of “What is it you do around here, anyway?”, so Boss can know what they should have and don’t.
      2. Keep reminding and escalating until they get it all. Specifically, get a good, usable, set of instructions someone could follow if the usual worker dropped dead. (We once rotated jobs across all our staff accountants for a month, to test the adequacy of the documentation. Talk about an acid test!)
      3. Establish a central repository to keep it all. I favor hard-copy AND electronic, both, with tracking on the electronic files. Talk to IT about secure storage, where your saboteur won’t be able to delete anything (or overwrite the only copy with blank pages). You might consider a copy of the paper binder going to your disaster recovery site, as well.
      4. Speaking of disaster recovery plans, does the department have one? When was it last updated? If not, who does your SOX audits, and why aren’t they screaming about all this?

  79. Lizy*

    Spending capital at work…

    I’m a relatively new employee – been here not quite a year and a half, although I was out for maternity leave for a couple of months last summer. I’m also fairly low on the ladder, and while I’m happy with my position now, I would like to move up at least a smidge eventually (like 3-5 years at the earliest). That all in mind, I’m pretty sure the answer to my conundrum is “suck it up and deal with it” but wanted others’ opinions.

    My company is in the process of introducing Brand New Database (BND). I was one of the first in this new database, testing it out and tweaking procedures before the company decided to move forward and implement the database with the rest of the company. In fact, I haven’t even been trained on Crappy Old Database (COD) due to the timing of my hire. I have experience in switching databases, including the extensive testing and documenting procedures that is involved. I have often been praised for my insights and thoroughness when testing and documenting procedures.

    Powers That Be (PTB) have decided that a certain task has to be done in the COD. Annoying, but ok. Except it affects other parts of how the BND works and functions – parts that PTB used to justify the money spent on BND in the first place. Also, it’s a pain in the you-know-what to find anything in the COD …

    I asked why we’re going backwards (in more words than that), and was essentially told “use the old database”. So my question to you, lovely AAM community, is a) I’m justified to be annoyed, right? They’re forcing me to use a really crappy old program basically because a couple of people can’t do their jobs right. It takes me a lot more time and effort to do the same task in the old system, and we’ve been using the new system for over a year with no problems. Why on earth would we be going backwards??? b) it’s really not a HUGE task, and I probably shouldn’t waste capital on pushing back, right?

    1. Pascall*

      I would put together a list of pros and cons for the BND and COD. Get time estimates for different tasks being performed in both.

      I know here at my work, we still use an old database for a few things in addition to our new database. It is annoying, but it’s because converting the info from old to the new will take money and expertise that we need to contract out. So it’s a hefty task that requires lots of approval from the “people upstairs”. So I understand why.

      But in your case, I would determine why it is that they can’t convert everything yet. There’s probably a reason, even if it’s a shaky one. Or maybe it’s one that you don’t or aren’t allowed to know about. But it’s very possible that you don’t have the whole perspective. So create your pros and cons list, hand it off to your supervisor or boss and ask for it to be considered. But that’s about all you can do if they opt to maintain the COD.

      Databases are hefty, stupid, and very often expensive. So conversions are often the same. It’s totally fine to be annoyed. But you may just have to cope with it for the time being until the pros to the BND start making more sense to them.

      1. Lizy*

        Oh they’ve told us the reason. Essentially, we now have to enter PaymentType1 into the old database, but literally all other payments are done in the new database. We’ve been entering PaymentType1 in the new database this entire time. After I posted, I talked with one of the managers and I’m pretty sure this is a matter of Big Whigs Deciding Things when they don’t actually know how it all works. That, or people who weren’t involved from the start of the project are “ooohhhh this is going to cause Problems because…” but they really don’t have a reason and just don’t like it.

        To be honest, I kinda get why they’d want to wait for other people to change this particular procedure. It just makes no sense for us very few who have done it this way from the get-go with no problems.

    2. fhqwhgads*

      Why do you even still have the old one after this long of having the new one?
      I would use capital on this but then again “why are we going backwards” is one of my major bugaboos.

      1. Lizy*

        The whole company doesn’t have the new one. We (me and like 2 others) were part of a test run for the program, and it’s still in the pretty early stages of being rolled out to the rest of the company.

        1. fhqwhgads*

          It shouldn’t take more than a year to transition from one system to the next. That’s a really bad process, and leads to things like what you’re describing. The plan should be to move forward with the rollout ASAP. Things like this are probably helping to drag it on even longer. It’s going to doom the project (of moving systems) to fail. This is illustrative of a bigger problem than this one task.

          1. Lizy*

            Yeah you have some good points. It’s definitely still a good ol’ boys company. Thanks for the input!

  80. Black cat in the night*

    I’m feeling really stupid for asking but I hope that someone has any ideas. I’m living in a country where you have to include a cover letter when you apply for jobs. The problem is that I’m completely blocking myself when I try to write one (as in unable to write a single sentence and crying in front of the computer in frustration). I’m unhappy in my current job but I won’t get out of it if I don’t manage to apply for other jobs.
    Anyone had the same problem or ideas how to get around this? I already searched for country specific advise but I only get articles how to write the perfect cover letter and they make it worse.

    1. BlueBelle*

      Change your search to “position cover letter examples” and use them for inspiration? I am sorry you are having such a hard time, good luck!

    2. Dark Macadamia*

      It sounds like the problem is more about the emotional aspect, is that right? Is it about something like stress that you won’t find a job, lack of confidence due to your current job, etc? You could try something like… pretending you are writing about someone else, or writing what you think a friend/coworker would say about you. Make a pro/con list of yourself and then use the pro list as a basis for your cover letter. Bullet points, stream of consciousness, or voice-to-text ramble to get the ideas out of your brain without the pressure of making it sound professional.

    3. Mental Lentil*

      Alison has posted some examples of great cover letters here. If you look at “Categories” on the right side, it’s the 7th link down.

      They are definitely helpful and inspirational.

      1. DoomCarrot*

        Yes, I know that feeling! For me, bullet points also really help. And putting in a placeholder first sentence that you can change later but it helps you get past the start to the main body.

        They do tend to have slightly different requirements in different countries (I’ve worked in several) so *just* looking for the position might not help.

        My structure is: introduction, what can I do for your company that isn’t immediately obvious from my CV, how did I get there, why do I want to work for this place specifically, practicalities (availability, salary if requested, which attachments are included/available [portfolio], etc) and close by saying you look forward to hearing from them.

    4. PollyQ*

      I was going to suggest writing the letter as if it’s to someone (friend/relative) you already know about why you want the job & why you’d be good at it, and then I thought, why not actually enlist a friend? Have a spoken conversation with them and use what you say as your first draft.

      Another suggestion: Remove the notion of “perfect cover letter” from your head, at least for now. Tell yourself you’re going to start by writing a crappy cover letter, and then once you have that, redraft it several times to make it excellent.

    5. PX*

      Start with word vomit. Just open a writing file, and dump every single thought or possible idea that could be useful for a cover letter in it. This is your first draft. Let it sit for a few days.

      Come back, look at it and try to structure it somewhat. Maybe group it in themes. Start to think about some full sentences. Let it sit for a few days.

      Come back, look at it and try and get it into something coherent. Sentences and paragraphs. Start to think about what the different themes of each paragraph could be – maybe one is about customer service, one is about your great project results, one is about your technical skills, etc. Let it sit for a few days.

      Come back and look at it, do you have good paragraphs yet? If not, work on that. Maybe try and craft the paragraphs to sound nice and impressive. Do one paragraph at a time if it helps. Let it sit for a few days.

      Come back and look at it. Do you have some nice, impressive sounding paragraphs on various strengths of yours? Well done – you have a generic cover letter that should be able to cover 90% of what you need for job applications.

      The last 10% is going to be transition sentences and tweaking to make it job specific.

      Does that help?

      1. tangerineRose*

        Yeah, just write whatever you think (never do this in an e-mail though, at least not if it’s addressed to someone), and you can fix it later. Maybe start with something like “I want this job because I have bills to pay. I hope this is a nice place to work and my co-workers and boss are decent human beings. I have these qualification: …”

        Then refine it, look at examples of cover letters, etc. Also, I think it can be a good thing to try to include positive things about the company you’re applying to in your cover letter.

  81. Collywobbles*

    I’m a pretty seasoned interviewer so it’s lame that I’m posting this, but:

    If you don’t get a job offer within a few days of your final interview, does that mean that you are rejected?

    I was a consultant for many years and usually heard right away whether I got the contract. Then, when I moved to FTE, I got job offers within a day.

    I’m currently waiting to hear back from a few companies but I worry that I’ve been ghosted and that since I haven’t heard back within a week that I should just consider that a no. But this is based on my previous experiences and may be completely unrealistic.

    ….SO READY to leave my toxic bully of a micromanager and move on to another job where I may or may not have another toxic bully of a manager, but I’m excited for the chance that I will get lucky and have a normal boss. Like buying a lottery ticket. There’s always a spark of hope.

    1. Pascall*

      A week is a very short amount of time for hiring managers to reach a final decision. I would wait 3 or 4 weeks, at most. Especially if this is a heavy hiring time for the company or if the position is one that requires a bit more deliberation (like a Director position vs. an Assistant).

      Don’t stress too much just yet. Give it some time, but even so, be prepared to continue job searching anyway.

    2. SunnySideUp*

      If you haven’t heard anything in another week or so, you could ask about their timeline for a decision if you didn’t during the interview. But a week is probably too soon to expect a response in most cases. Good luck!

    3. PollyQ*

      It absolutely does not mean that you’re rejected. The employer may still be interviewing other candidates, or may not have made any decision yet, or someone may be on vacation, or may have to run through a lengthy internal process, etc. etc. However, for your own sanity, it may be helpful to assume that you haven’t gotten the job and continue your job search accordingly. If & when they do get back to you, it’ll be a pleasant surprise.

    4. Lizy*

      Nah. At my OldJob I interviewed and they said they’d get back with me in a few days because they wanted me to meet the CEO. It was over a month later before I got a call out of the blue saying “we’re offering you the job”.

  82. anon for this*

    I posted in a Friday thread quite a while back in the fall asking for advice on a new directive at a part time job to wear khaki pants to work along with the work polo that was provided. I had a lot of black pants to wear from previous years with this job and wanted to still wear them because I don’t get a lot of hours with the part time job to justify new pants and it would be a days pay and I didn’t want to clothes shop in a pandemic, etc. So I asked here for advice on if I should ask and how I should ask if I would continue to wear the black pants from previous seasons.

    I e-mailed my supervisor and it turns out his definition of khaki pants and my definition of khaki pants were at odds with one another. I thought he meant khaki colored pants and he meant what I consider to be nice pants. He is a new supervisor and he didn’t like how the dress requirements were phrased in previous years, which were no jeans, no ripped or torn pants, no leggings, no jeggings, no sweats, no yoga pants, etc. He wanted a policy that didn’t have a lot of no’s in it so he switched the words out but not the meaning.

    He said I could wear the black dress pants that I had been wearing in the past. But I noticed that others thought I was getting away with something and I started seeing other people wearing the jeans, leggings, etc to work. Now we are getting e-mails telling us how to dress and that there will be a three warnings or you are out policy on inappropriate dress. I hope that he clarifies it for others that he didn’t mean the color khaki but the style he calls khakis. He is a great boss and I would hate for him to have to deal with the small hassles of the job, of which I am a part of because of this.

    1. LQ*

      Can you tell him directly that you think that other people may have a similar understanding as you of “khaki” and that it would be useful to explain directly? If he’s otherwise a good boss I think it would be useful to him to say that. (If you don’t feel like you can say that to him, he’s maybe not such a great boss :))

      1. anon for this*

        I did at the time. He is keeping an eye on things and it seems to be the same employees who have problems in other areas that are going out of bounds so to speak. I don’t want to be the office nark or be seen as being bossy when I am not the boss so I am staying in the background for this. I have had this part time job for about twenty year and I work with people who last two or three years and then move on (the job is on a college campus).

        1. LQ*

          He kind of sounds like a boss who manages people by edicts to all instead of hard conversations with one person. I think staying out of it is the right thing to do. But if people ask you can definitely direct them to talk to Boss.

    2. Dark Macadamia*

      Yeah, you should explain why you were confused and suggest that others are having a similar reaction. I once worked at a place where there were yearly long-winded debates about whether we could wear capri pants, and it was so baffling to me because I regularly wore them without incident and hadn’t even considered them being against the dress code until the first debate I witnessed. I’m pretty sure the boss thought people were wanting to wear SHORTS and it didn’t occur to any of them to clarify or just, you know, show up in capris anyway.

    3. Hunnybee*

      Khakis re fug, and it should be appropriate for people to dress in proper business attire. It sounds like he could easily define an appropriate code for this.

      Like:
      YES business casual pants (of whatever color), long skirts or dresses, short skirts with tights, etc.
      NO leggings, jeans, sweatpants, sling suits (ala Borat), etc.

    4. Littorally*

      Yeah, I’ve definitely heard people use “khakis” as a general term for what I would call chinos — a step down from dress pants in that they’re made from sturdier, more casual fabric, but they’re office appropriate where jeans aren’t. And if you’re female, the distinction between casual and formal dress pants is even less clear cut.

  83. No Tribble At All*

    Happy Friday, everyone! If you’re ever worried about a mistake you made at work, just remember: did you get a giant boat stuck in the Suez Canal? If not, you’re OK.

    1. Sylvan*

      Lol. Yeah, sure puts things into perspective.

      If you check out an NYT article about it, you can see an excavator trying to help free the boat. The excavator looks so tiny beside a 1,300-foot boat. If you feel like your job’s hard, at least you’re not trying to get that boat moving.

      1. Former Young Lady*

        This is my favourite sub-thread so far. You have both cracked me up, and I needed it.

    3. Littorally*

      I have been following this since Tuesday and non-stop laughing. It really does put work stress and work mistakes in perspective!

      Can my error be literally seen from space? Nah, okay, it’s manageable.

    4. CatCat*

      This made me literally LOL.

      Like, yeah, I’m struggling with something at work, but damn, I’m not responsible for dislodging the largest ship in the world from a major trade route.

    7. Bobina*

      Yes! I may post about this next week for fun, but I was imagining what life is going to be like for that captain now. How awkward will job interviews be???!

      1. Clisby*

        My husband and I were just talking about this, and neither of us was sure (and I can’t figure it out from news reports I’ve seen) whether the captain or a pilot would have been in charge.

        For example, on the Panama Canal, there are canal pilots to guide the ships through. I guess sort of like where I live ((Charleston, SC) harbor pilots guide ships into the port.

    8. Mimmy*

      I totally LOL’ed at this and the subsequent comments!!! How in the h-e-double-hockey-sticks did he manage to get that ship stuck anyway??!

    10. Malarkey01*

      My husband and I were watching it on the news and he turned to me and said “hey remember when you did that 18 point turn to get the car turned around and that policeman had to get in and get your car unstuck from that one way alley…” he and I are not talking this week.

  84. LadyHouseOfLove*

    Small talk is such a thing in my new workplace and usually I don’t mind it. Only this week, my family is visiting and all everyone has been asking me is how I feel about that. And it’s starting to get on my nerves because I can only give the same basic replies that I’m looking forward to it.

    I will admit that it is adding salt to the wound for me because I’ve disliked moving to a small town and I miss my original home.

    1. WellRed*

      Well you’ve learned already to be careful about what you share, I guess. You could add “why do you ask?” If it’s getting real obnoxious or just make something up “excited to show them around, take them to fave local spot” or whatever. Just to keep up your end of the social contract. You’re coworkers are being a bit much.

    2. tangerineRose*

      “I’m looking forward to it” seems like a good reply. I’d just stick with that if I were you.

  85. CherryJam*

    I’ve had quite an eventful March. No expected promotion, which I know I meet the criteria for 90% of the job – was communicated I was going to get it. At my company you must already be doing the job before you get promoted. I totally get where I am weaker and I agree on it, however the promotion denial was totally sprung on me. My team apparently really like me, and I really excel in some areas (direct feedback from multiple colleagues).

    I was not happy and pretty darn hurt. My manager and my manager’s manager knows this. We’ve had several, constructive meetings, and there is a plan in place to get me promoted later (fixed promotion cycles per year), which I believe in. I believe they want to support me, and this past week has been a step up. I got in touch with a recruiter who’s been courting me , and I’m through to the second round with two interviews, with others tbc.

    Two big things I need advice on:
    1) I don’t know if I actually want to leave. I really like my job, my team, my company. Progression is clear and defined. We’re exceptionally well known and have a strong reputation. I also really want to work abroad and my company is big enough that is a possibility, but Covid… If I was offered a job at another company it would be the promotion I’ve been denied. Pay between companies in my sector is fairly standard, but there’s possibility of payreview at my current job but this process is opaque and I can’t influence it. Speaking to someone else who has the know, I get the impression I could use another job offer as leverage.

    2) I had a meeting just me and my manager’s manager, and there’s clearly been some communication issues between me and my direct manager. The relationship now feels awkward. It’s always been professional, we’re pretty different personality wise, but I’ve been able to work with a couple of others at my manager’s level and it was revelatory. There’s no other person in my team at the right level to manage me other than my current manager, and I don’t want to/can’t move teams. How do I manage this relationship going forward?

    1. CatCat*

      On 1., if you get an offer that gives you the promotion now and the company ticks off most of the boxes you need and want, I’d be very tempted to take it. Bird in the hand and all.

      Also, just because you leave Current Employer does not mean you can never go back, especially if you leave on good terms. So if there may be a chance to go back at a higher level after a couple years and you want to do that for the chance to move abroad, consider that possibility as well.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      On 2, it might depend on what the communication issues are. Are you both saying the same things but in different ways and that leads to misunderstanding? (BTDT) Or is your manager leaving out fundamental information and that’s causing you challenges in your work because you only find out later that you were missing stuff? Depending on what it is, you might have a conversation directly with your manager about needing this or that to better support you, or discuss what you can do to help improve communication.

      If you have good relationships with other managers and you have a good one with your grand boss, would it be sufficient to keep regular meetings going with them? It sounds like it’s been helpful to have outside conversations and it’s been providing you with insights you wouldn’t otherwise have. The awkwardness will probably fade when you have a better handle on what to do with the new information. And if it doesn’t, that’s useful too even if it means that maybe leaving is a good option.

  86. Liane*

    I have a job interview Monday!
    It’s for a full time teller position at a regional bank (only operates in my state). So far it’s been a very fast process. I saw the posting last week while driving by Bank Branch, I called Monday (per the instructions) and got a call back almost immediately from the HR rep handling that opening. I filled out the application and emailed it back Thursday morning, I was called for a short phone screen Thursday afternoon, and this morning got a call back to set up an interview with hiring manager.
    I have come across some good HR people over the years and I was still impressed. The HR Rep I first talked to Monday was thorough but concise going over the entire hiring process. She covered everything from starting pay to hours to what types of background checks were done. She politely but clearly warned me that tattoos, multiple piercings, and non-natural hair colors were out. “I know things are changing around these, but this is a conservative area.” This wasn’t a surprise to me, as we moved earlier this year to some family property in a very rural part of the state and yes, conservative can be an understatement here. The rep who set up the interviews was also great. The combination of professionalism and friendliness made me more interested in finding out more about Bank.

    Oddly, I didn’t need a resume, but there was a section to list skills/accomplishments/trainings I thought would make me a success in the position, so I winnowed those from my resume and worded them the way Alison advises, with numbers.
    ___
    And yes I have a question. Interview clothing. I am planning to wear a nice skirt and top, dress flats, non-dangling earrings, hair up, and minimal make up. Does that sound appropriate? I did confirm with first HR Rep that dress flats are appropriate, as I know there’s still conservative companies where that means “women wear high heels.” I will have to buy a pair of nice flats or low heels this weekend, so I’m looking for “go with almost anything” spring/summer shoe color suggestions, as well. My planned outfit is teal and black, and I am looking for a color I can use with multiple interview/job outfits regardless of whether I get this one. Since we just moved and both of us are job hunting, I’d rather not have to buy more than 1 pair until we aren’t living on savings.

  87. Ellyfant*

    Advice please for working with a boss who is way too nice to the point of creating boundary problems at work. Examples:

    -We had a senior manager who was not performing or contributing anything for years. She spent most of her work day online shopping. When it came to firing her, Boss was reluctant and heartbroken at the prospect (despite knowing the problems) and needed a LOT of hand holding and convincing that it was okay to fire her. He couldn’t bear being a part of the firing process and I handled everything.
    -We have another senior manager “Alex” who is emotionally volatile to the point of making several people cry. Boss has addressed these issues with Alex but it’s at a point where Alex actually needs consequences and disciplinary actions. However, all Boss does is make the same explanation to Alex countless times on why X behaviour is bad and Y needs to happen. He also has insisted to me that I need to accommodate Alex’s petty outbursts which is stressful and unfair.
    -When he found out that an employee was short on money to go on a trip he gave her hundreds of dollars of cash and paid for her accommodation. This happens frequently with employees who need something.
    -During times when the company was struggling financially Boss still insisted on spending money as though things were fine – eg no redundancies, unnecessary gifts for the whole team, extravagant meals, etc. When I suggeste cost effective alternatives I end up being the cheap, bad guy for doing so. It’s frustrating to see him on a generous spending spree then hear him complain incessantly about how the company might go bankrupt.

    I have spoken to him frankly about all these issues to no avail. Any advice please? I’m at my wit’s end.

    1. Mental Lentil*

      It’s really out of your control. He’s stated clearly through his behavior that he’s not gonna change. As I see it, you have three options:

      1) Turn a blind eye to it.

      2) Find a job elsewhere.

      3) Become one of those employees who constantly need something and bilk him for everything you can get out of him. /s

    2. PollyQ*

      You report to him, yes, not the other way around? In that case, my suggestion is to care less (i.e. not at all) about all his poor management unless it directly impacts you. Slacking senior manager but boss feels like a big meanie firing them? Not your problem. Boss spending too much money on inessentials? Not your problem. Screaming middle manager? Actually is your problem, at least when he yells at you, so push back on that, although we both know it’s not going to help.

      Long story short, your boss sucks and he isn’t going to change, and it isn’t in your power to change or fix him. Decide how much you’re willing to put up with, and think about an internal transfer, if you like the company over all, or a new job with a different company.

    3. Anthoni*

      Accept that this is who he is, it isn’t going to change, and decide if you still want the job knowing that.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      Oh, I first read the bit about giving money to an employee for a trip and assumed it was a business trip, which of course the boss should cover it! But from context, that was a personal trip, yes? And boss is the business owner?

      I think you’ve done what you can. You have a boss who’s not great with money management or hard decisions, which is pretty much a recipe for bankruptcy. If he let you borrow authority to fire the one manager, will he let you do so with Alex? If not, why not?

      I’d be looking to get out or at least have a good escape plan for the near future. Putting some focus on your next step might help you care less, as the other commenters have suggested too.

      1. Ellyfant*

        Yup, a personal trip. Boss is the business owner and gave cash from his personal money.

        I have no energy to convince Boss to fire Alex. If I were the CEO I would require Alex to behave professionally or leave; but I know Boss will not do that. I will have to do weeks of persuading, hand holding, reassuring, etc. I’ve decided I can’t be bothered.

  88. several snakes*

    I just got an interview request for a job I applied for when I was pretty depressed and feeling bad about my ability to supervise (government org, position is at the same level but with no supervisory duties). It’s been about a month since I applied, I’m feeling better about my current work and wondering if I should go for it or just stay where I am.

    Pros:
    -I am feeling better about supervising but still not super fond of it after six months. I definitely don’t want to move up into management.
    -The work looks like it would be interesting and develop my analysis skills, which is a strength of mine I don’t feel gets enough room to grow
    Cons:
    -I’d be leaving my unit in the lurch, there’s nobody really qualified with my knowledge base to take my place. They’d survive but they wouldn’t be happy about it.
    -The interview is in-person and I don’t know if the work would be too and if it is, it would be significantly farther than my current job location (I’m working from home but my workplace is a fifteen minute walk). However, I’ve commuted there before and it’s manageable.
    -I feel anxious about talking to my boss for a reference because he doesn’t know I applied and I don’t want him to wonder about why I’m leaving

    Any advice? Input? I have about a week to respond about whether I’ll be at the interview or not, so I’m taking my time to consider what I really want.

    1. Weekend Please*

      So as for talking to your boss, I don’t think telling him you are leaving because you have found that you dislike supervising people and love analysis is a bad thing. It’s not personal and says nothing bad about your current job. It just isn’t for you. You say that you are feeling better about it, so you do have time to search for something you would really be happy doing. Maybe this job is it and maybe it isn’t. If the commute is too much of a deterrent, wait and apply for others.

      Do you need your current boss to be a reference for this new job? It isn’t uncommon to not let your current boss know you are leaving until you have an offer. If you do need their reference, it may be better to express your discontent with supervising sooner rather than later so that they don’t feel blindsided. You don’t necessarily need to start off by telling him you already applied for this other job (especially if you don’t decide to interview) but letting him know you aren’t 100% happy could make it easier to talk to him later about leaving than if he thinks things are going well.

  89. Dark Macadamia*

    My job history is crap, and makes me really nervous for trying to restart my career and how best to represent myself. I usually include all my industry jobs on my resume because there’s so little to work with, but my husband suggested it might be better to leave off the most recent one because it’s less related to my intended career as a llama wrangler, and I wanted to see what other people might think.

    Basically I worked at Company A full-time for 1 year as a groomer and 2 as a wrangler. Then a year unemployed, then 1 year part-time at Company B as a baby llama feeder. Since then I’ve been a SAHM for 5 years but he thinks my resume should suggest I’d been one for 7 (I did have kids prior to Company B).

    I do also have a couple earlier temp and summer jobs as a llama wrangler as well as a wrangler internship so it’s not like my whole resume would be just Company A, but I’ve only had two “real” industry jobs and it’s hard to know how much Company B helps vs hurts the overall impression I make.

    1. Mental Lentil*

      he thinks my resume should suggest I’d been one for 7

      Don’t lie. If a potential employer finds out, you probably won’t get the job.

      I would focus on what skills you have, rather than experience. What qualifies you to be a llama wrangler? What achievements did you accomplish on those jobs? Even if it’s just “consistently rated by customers as an excellent wrangler” I would definitely point that out.

      Also, have you had educational experiences you could add? Courses you’ve taken, seminars you’ve attended? Even if they are free online courses (Udemy, Coursera, etc.) it shows that you are interested in the field and keeping up with while staying home with your nuggets.

      1. Dark Macadamia*

        Yeah, I definitely wouldn’t lie on my full work history but I’m considering dropping it from “relevant experience” on my resume the same as like, a retail job.

        I definitely have accomplishments I can highlight from that job as well as some ongoing PD, but it wasn’t the most glowing example of my work lol

    2. Chickaletta*

      Like you suggest, call it “Relevant Work Experience” and even title it just that on your resume. It’s honest and paints you in the best light. If they ask what else you’ve done, then of course at that point you can mention the baby llama feeding job and briefly talk about how it’s related to the job you’re applying for, what you accomplished, etc.

  90. Anxiety*

    For those with anxiety, I would love your opinions and help.

    I’ve always had anxiety that has been managed by therapy and other coping mechanisms. I considered medication but hadn’t felt I needed it yet since therapy is successful. Of course, cue the pandemic and summer of unrest and starting a new job that went remote immediately after hire in March 2020 where I was 1 of 3 people of color. I had just left a toxic job and somehow made it through that OK.

    This job has been hard, but nowhere near as toxic as my last job. Which is why I am confused why my anxiety has spiked through the roof at this role, enough that I am now about to get on medication. I cry before every meeting. I dread getting up and going to my computer. I have been crying for no discernible reason sometimes when I open my email. Yes, my job is hard and I don’t enjoy it for a few reasons, but again, it’s not a toxic environment like my last job. So I am confused. Everything else in life seems fine. I’m getting vaccinated soon too.

    Is just my anxiety being wack and I just need to try this medication and normalize? Or is this telling me something about my job? Sometimes it is hard to tell when you have an anxious mind.

    1. Sylvan*

      Hey, I’m going to come back to this after work, but I just wanted to say that this sounds really hard. Sometimes anxiety comes up after you leave the stressful situation, not during the situation, because you had to kind of squash down the fear and stress earlier. When I’ve gotten from a bad job into a better one, it’s suddenly become safe to deal with the fear and stress, and so I felt like crap when I expected to feel relieved. Also, uh, you’ve kinda been through hell over the last year. Do you feel like you’re working through old thoughts and feelings or new ones?

      Also, what kind of medication are you thinking about starting? I’ve been on some and I’d be happy to answer questions about it or point you towards online resources, here or on the non-work weekend post.

      1. Anxiety*

        Oh you are kind! I am not sure what medication just yet, but my appointment is later this afternoon. My therapist mentioned Xanax might be a possibility, but I’ll know more after my appointment. Would love to know more about those online resources!

        That makes sense with time to process and maybe my body is finally responding. I do think that my current job is a bad fit, which makes me think I might need to start looking, but this response that I’m going through feels like too much in comparison. I think I’m both working through old thoughts and some new ones too (disappointment, inadequacy, etc.) Thank you for your thoughts and advice!

      2. tangerineRose*

        “Sometimes anxiety comes up after you leave the stressful situation, not during the situation” and “When I’ve gotten from a bad job into a better one, it’s suddenly become safe to deal with the fear and stress, and so I felt like crap when I expected to feel relieved.” So much these!

        Prozac takes a while to take effect, maybe a week or 2, but it can be very helpful. I hope it works for you!

        FYI, a lot of anti-depressants may cause dry mouth. I had dry mouth with Zoloft and had to switch back to Prozac (which can also cause dry mouth but doesn’t for me). I didn’t even know I had a problem – my dentist was concerned about my teeth after I’d been on Zoloft for a while.

    2. Pascall*

      Did you ever give yourself a chance to decompress from your toxic job to your new one? I had to take three weeks off in between when I left my toxic workplace in order to reframe my mind and let myself let everything go. I spent a lot of those three weeks in bed, crying. But I imagine if I hadn’t, I would have just suppressed it and it would’ve manifested in other ways.

      You may want to consider taking a small break, if you haven’t given yourself one already. A few days or a week off, if possible.

      On another note, sometimes when you leave a toxic job and hop into another job, the expectation may be that it should be a much better environment. And sometimes it’s only slightly better, but the frustration and pain is still there in other aspects. You may just be more vulnerable after leaving your last job and things are affecting you on a deeper level.

      I would definitely give the medication a try, either way. See how you feel with it. If nothing changes, you know that you’ll want to try something else. If you begin to adjust gradually, then it could be that your body really just needed the assistance.

      I hope you feel better soon!

      1. Girasol*

        I left Toxic Job and felt worse for awhile afterward. It was a sort of explosive decompression. When it was over I kept wondering, wait, did I imagine the crazy all along? Was it really that bad? was I too sensitive or something? And so on. But the longer I was away the more the feeling faded and confidence returned. Do give yourself some time to heal before you worry about it, whether you choose medication for awhile or not. Toxic jobs can leave you more messed up than you’d think.

    3. Lumen*

      If your anxiety is disrupting your life in any way, it is okay to seek medication for help.

      If your anxiety is being wack and you need some help stabilizing, it is okay to seek medication.

      If your anxiety is making your job seem worse than it is, it is okay to seek medication.

      If your job is making your anxiety worse or making you feel destabilized, it is okay to seek medication.

      Basically my point is that you sound like you are having a really hard time, and you absolutely deserve all the help you can get. I have severe anxiety that’s been worsened by the pandemic AND a toxic job, and I don’t like to imagine how much worse I might feel if I didn’t have the medical assistance I need.

      I hope you are able to feel some improvement very soon.

    4. I'm on mental health leave*

      I think it is really reasonable for your anxiety (and many people’s, including mine) to be especially high lately. Even if things are improving in your situation now, we’ve all been going through multiple collective traumatic situations for an extended time period. That kind of trauma builds up over time and eventually has to find a release point. I can’t say if that is the reason for your anxiety to be high or if your new job is contributing as well, but it may help to take the meds to get your anxiety down to a manageable level and then reassess whether your job is a problematic factor. You’ll be able to evaluate it more clearly at that point. Even if it is the job, you can decide whether to make changes from a more calm state so it helps either way. Sending you commiseration internet hugs if you want them and just the commiseration if not!

    5. Bucky Barnes*

      Responding late here but I was diagnosed with anxiety years ago and took a very low-dose medication for it for years (Klonopin). I know some people don’t react well to it but I’ve always been fine with it. When the pandemic showed no signs of ending last year, I found myself really stressed and sometimes crying at work (in private). I called my doctor and he put me back on it. It has made all the difference. I feel like myself again. I hadn’t wanted to be on meds again but it was absolutely the right choice for me. And I felt a change within days.

      It might indeed be your job. I’ve had other jobs that I’ve dreaded and cried at, but I like my current job. If you’re comfortable with it, you could give the meds a shot and if it doesn’t work, maybe then look at a different job.

  91. Pescadero*

    Interviews… next to completely worthless?

    I’ve always, always questioned the criterion validity of the general interview process – and it looks more and more like evidence supports my opinion.

    Noise: A Flaw in Human Judgment by Daniel Kahneman, Olivier Sibony and Cass Sunstein

    “If all you know about two candidates is that one appeared better than the other in the interview, the chances that this candidate is indeed the better one are about 56% to 61%,”

    1. Littorally*

      My general feeling on interviews is the Winston Churchill quote about democracy — “the worst form of [hiring], except for all the others that have been tried.”

    2. Cookies For Breakfast*

      I’m seeing your point more and more after my experiences on both sides the past few weeks:

      1) A company that kept offering me more interviews even after it became clear I didn’t meet their standards. My gut says I was the only candidate in the process and they were getting desperate.

      2) My first interview using a video tool that involved recording myself answering questions. I look and sound like a fool on video, and I promise none of that would matter in my actual job. Also, everything I heard about AI hiring tech that makes it sound like the opposite of preventing bias, and a dream for corporate psychopaths.

      4) A glimpse of the current interview process at my company, which fails spectacularly at involving the right people and spending enough time with candidates to check for mutual fit (my jaw dropped several times at what HR came up with, though more detail may be too identifying)

  92. Jack Straw*

    What to do when your boss is regularly saying they don’t want to be at work?

    Sometimes it’s implied: “Oh man, I did NOT want to come to work today/come back after that long weekend,” and “I’m so unfocused/unmotivated.” Sometimes it’s explicit: “I really don’t want to do X,” “I really don’t want to be here today,” or “I wish I could go take a walk/take a nap/watch TV/read a book this afternoon/morning.” But it’s an almost constant thing.

    It’s to the point I want to say something to them because it is impacting my ability to trust them when working on the team’s behalf.

    1. Jack Straw*

      And to add, I’ve already tried to do a “how are you doing” check in with them and am open to trying again, as a human vs. a direct report. It’s just been brushed off before.

      1. Mental Lentil*

        Not that it helps, but I saw a meme that said “You’re an adult. You can go live in the woods if you want.” I immediately thought of it when I read your post, because it really sounds like he wants to run away from home.

    2. WellRed*

      Ignore. It may be boss way of trying to sound like one of the gang or it may be their way off letting of steam. Even if it’s more serious burnout, it doesn’t sound like you have standing Or responsibility to “fix.”

      1. CCSF*

        I agree, TBH, but it’s just frustrating and demoralizing.

        I’m curious if the same is true when the boss confides personal and work information to their team members? Sharing what I consider far too personal details about their life (ex. personal friendship dilemmas or dating history and status, including when they last had sex) and unsolicited work “gossip” about still-unannounced projects/changes (“I probably shouldn’t be telling you guys this but…”) and about other coworkers and same-level-and-above managers (“Jen is a not really with it. Mary is on a PIP you know.”).

        Because that is also the case. I may be feeling the burn out comments more because of the other things…

        1. Lumen*

          I think sharing these kind of details (and generally talking negatively about people behind their backs) is a real red flag. It could be burnout, but it’s incredibly unprofessional, especially for a manager talking to their reports.

    3. Jack Straw*

      Eh, I figured as much. TY for replying though, WellRed and Mental. Knowing all I can really do is ignore it is nice, I suppose. I was hoping for a magic pill that doesn’t exist.

      CCSF, TY for making me feel better about my boss. Yikes.

      Also, FWIW, the boss is female. It’s funny/interesting that Mental assumed it was a he. I was careful not to include pronouns.

  93. Anonymous Pygmy Possum*

    I may be a little late to the open thread – but has anyone had experience moving from software development to documentation/technical writing or training? I’m not looking to leave my job anytime in the immediate future, especially since I actually get to do a decent amount of writing at my development job due to working for a small company full of developers who really don’t want to/can’t write. But I know I’m going to have to leave at some point in the next 2 to 3 years, and want to get out of development in my next job. Anything I should be focusing on? Networking groups I should be joining? Classes I can take to improve my writing or presenting skills? Any ideas would be great.

    1. Lyudie*

      I have not done it myself, but I was a technical writer for years and saw a lot of folks make that change. Some were really good tech writers, too, I always liked having a coworker around who was on the other side of things because they understood the technology so well. STC is the big professional organization in the field, a lot of info on the site is for members only but I believe they do have some resources available for everyone. Some local chapters are very active, so that might be a good source of networking.

      For classes, general business writing etc. classes might be helpful, if you are not confident in those skills yet. Some tech writers work in markup/tagged languages like DITA or other flavors of XML, plus there are various authoring programs you could look into classes for. Honestly though if you are a software dev you will probably not have any trouble with the tools.

      You also mentioned training, that is what I do now. You can definitely find books and classes on adult learning theory and the various instructional design models (ADDIE and SAM are the most common I think). I’m doing an online masters in instructional design currently.

      If you want to keep your fingers in techy things, folks who can do DITA transforms and things like content management systems admin often have a leg up for positions.

  94. A Little Bit Alexis*

    I currently work in PR – social media is a big part of my job, along with web content, writing press releases and a weekly newsletter, event planning, and some graphic design work. Social media includes writing all the content, taking photos and video, and tracking analytics. Plus, there’s a fairly wide range of “other duties as assigned.”

    Has anyone made the switch from PR/communications into another field? I don’t think I want to stay in PR long-term and I’ve begun the process of looking at other jobs. The problem is that I have no idea how to make this transition or what I’d like to move into!

    I love problem-solving and I have a very “logical” mind, in that I like patterns and order. I’ve thought about trying to learn some coding but I don’t want to go back to school if I can avoid it. I’m just finishing a Master’s degree now in communications and leadership. Any suggestions or success stories are much appreciated!

    1. 1234*

      You mentioned “tracking analytics” as one of the things you are doing at your PR job. Is there a way to spin that into “I really love that aspect of the role so I’m looking at opportunities where I get to XYZ.”

      1. DoomCarrot*

        Perhaps a sub-field? Specifically: science communication and outreach. The world sorely lacks people to liaise between scientists and the public, and regular journalists often get it wrong. If you’re analytic and enjoy things like statistics, but know how to talk to people, it could be just the thing. And it’s finally getting funding in a lot of places!

    2. Sylvan*

      Do you enjoy writing? A lot of people who do bounce between PR, communications, marketing, and journalism. Journalism is the most different from the others; it just has enough relevant skills that there are a lot of ex-journalists in PR and vice versa.

      I work in marketing as a content writer/copywriter. My role is basically yours, but without social media, press releases, event planning, or graphic design. (Other people at my company do those things.)

    3. Sylvan*

      My other comment hasn’t appeared yet, and I can’t remember whether I mentioned this. If I did — I don’t think so — then sorry for the repetition. Have you been doing any search-engine optimization? You could lean into that, if you’re interested in it. SEO analysis could be interesting for you.

  95. Interviewing While Being Promoted*

    I’m interviewing for a job on Monday that would give me a significant increase in pay and responsibility. I’m also in the process of being promoted at my current job; my title is being upgraded, and I’ll have two direct reports/be in an official management role for the first time. I’m torn on whether to bring up this promotion in my interview. It’s my second promotion in two years at this job, which sounds great, but I think it might also make them question why I’m leaving my current role. I have a pretty good answer for that – lots of turnover, constant changes in strategy, wanting more stability, etc. – but I’m not sure if interviewing while being promoted would make me seem like a wishy washy potential employee. I’d love any thoughts or suggestions on how to handle this!

    1. Mental Lentil*

      I think your reasons for leaving are great. Constant turnover and changes in strategy are not something you should have to deal with on a regular basis. I would want out of that job as well.

      Besides, it’s not as if you asked to be promoted, and you certainly aren’t interviewing to angle for a promotion. Quite the other way around!

    2. ferrina*

      If you are currently in the process of being promoted (not yet promoted), there isn’t any reason to bring it up at this point. I don’t think it makes you seem wishy-washy, but it’s not quite relevant. The interviewer is going to be more interested in what you’ve done to this point rather than what you might do in the future. It might also complicate the interview in ways you might not expect- if I had an interviewee say “I’m getting promoted but would rather work here”, I’d wonder how bad their current place was and (more importantly) what bad habits they might have picked up in a bad environment. I work with other people who would pass you over because you’re already being promoted and they want to give someone else a chance (terrible logic, I know, but this is based on actual conversations I’ve had with other hiring managers)

      Good luck in your interview!

  96. NeonDreams*

    Has anyone gone back to school for a media/communications degree as a graduate degree when already have a journalism degree as an undergrad but you graduated 10 years ago? I want to do something communications related long term, but not sure of my next step. Do I try to break in with free lance experience or get more education? I’m not sure what my answer is. All I know is customer service is detrimental to my mental health and I need to fix it ASAP.

    1. WellRed*

      Have you been working in customer service since graduation? Do you have any journalism experience at this point? Cause depending on your end goal, what you need is clips, not a degree. I work in a niche journalism job, but if you applied to work with us as an editor reporter we’d look at published clips, maybe have you take an editing test and give you an easy and paid writing assignment. If you want the master’s, really ask yourself why cause you’ll never pay it off with a standard journalism job.

      1. WellRed*

        Adding I have a BA in English and worked three years in college paper. I thought I wanted a masters in communication but ultimately realized taking on that debt probably wouldn’t get me the job I wanted. YMMV.

    2. SummerBreeze*

      I’d say you don’t need a Comms degree if you’ve already been working in journalism. (Longtime Comms exec here.) At my first Comms job, half the Comms team were former journalists who had simply made the switch. Definitely try freelancing for some experience if you can swing it, or have some informational interviews with Comms folks you know. Also, as you know, there are lots of Comms specialities (internal Comms, media relations/PR, social media Comms, investor relations Comms, etc) so consider which of those interests you the most.

      1. NeonDreams*

        The reason I say that is I haven’t been in journalism for years. I went to one newspaper that I moved out of state for, didn’t do well and had to move back home. I took customer service out of necessity and my town has limited options. I was thinking school because I could get clips and projects to use when applying for jobs in the future. My newest clips are from 2013 or 2014. I’m in year 6 of customer service and wanting to get back to my interests, which is writing and communications. But I have no idea how to do that.

  97. Flower necklace*

    Is it legal to take away a teacher’s lunch break?

    This hasn’t happened to me yet, but there’s been a lot of talk about mandating five days of in-person instruction next fall. Even with the revised CDC guidelines, I just don’t see how my school can physically accommodate all of the students during lunch. We’re barely managing it now during hybrid.

    If the solution turns out to be that teachers have to supervise students during their lunch period, would that be legal? One of my coworkers said she thought it was illegal, but I wasn’t sure. Education tends to have its own rules. I work in the public school system in Virginia, if that matters.

      1. Flower necklace*

        It doesn’t say anything about it. And, even if it did, I wouldn’t trust it. We sign a new contract each year. They could easily make changes to allow for taking away lunch breaks.

    2. Lumen*

      See if you can find information from OSHA. I vaguely recall reading several years ago that teachers were somehow exempt from being given breaks, but I may have misunderstood it. And it was Oklahoma in the early 00s, so even if I read it right, it may have changed.

      1. Flower necklace*

        I’m sorry to hear that. Our admin worked really hard to set up a workable system that allows us a lunch break in hybrid, but their hands might be tied in the fall.

    4. Flower necklace*

      I might be misunderstanding, but it seems like there’s no legal requirement to provide a break or lunch at all, only that it doesn’t need to be paid if the break is 30+ minutes.

      Wow. I didn’t know that.

    5. sequined histories*

      When I was a kid our teachers had to eat lunch with us in the lunchroom. I now teach in a state with strong teachers’ unions and the administrators have to supervise lunch. I think it depends on your contract.

      1. Flower necklace*

        Unfortunately, there’s nothing in my contract about an uninterrupted lunch period, but there is language about being able to modify duties as necessary. So I’ll have to prepare myself for the possibility that it might actually happen, despite the objections of the teachers and the admin team.

    6. Juneybug*

      “Virginia does not require employers to provide breaks, including lunch breaks, for workers sixteen (16) years old or older. An employer who chooses to provide a break in excess of twenty (20) minutes does not have to pay wages for lunch periods or other breaks if the employee is free to leave the worksite, in fact takes their lunch or break, and the employee does not actually perform work. According to federal law, breaks twenty (20) minutes or shorter typically must be paid.” https://www.employmentlawhandbook.com/wage-and-hour-laws/state-wage-and-hour-laws/virginia/#4

  98. Lumen*

    Today in “Micromanagers Who Simultaneously Fail To Provide Management”:

    I got a message from my boss this morning asking me if I’d written my quarterly goals yet, since they’re due today. Not a problem, except:

    * When I started in January, she told me not to bother writing goals.
    * I had to ask if the goals due today were for Q1 (ie, maybe she forgot what she said in January) or Q2.
    * This was the first I’d heard from her or anyone about this deadline.
    * She hasn’t talked to me, at any point, about what sort of goals I should set, what her expectations are, or what she’d like me to focus on.
    * And there’s no tracking of the usual KPIs that our department should be measured by, so I can’t calculate how I might improve them.

    Real hard not to make one of my goals “get the hell out of here”.

      1. Lumen*

        I can’t even do the AAM thing and sit down to talk to her about this. She’s wildly insecure and very unprofessional. I’ve even agreed with something she’s said only to have her reverse position and scold me… for agreeing with her. I try to avoid even asking questions because those tend to spin out, too.

        It’s eggshell city over here.

    2. ferrina*

      oh wow.
      Goal: Post RFP and vet vendors for new consultancy as Mindreader so I can know what my goals are supposed to be!

    3. Bambadjan Bamba*

      Get the hell out of here is a respectable goal. : )

      Its also personally my primary goal, now that I have an odious micromanager like you do.

  99. Pascall*

    I think flats are more and more widely accepted in most offices. High heels are hard to work in for eight hours out of the day! Even in your more conservative areas, a dressy pair of flats are almost always fine. As long as they’re not sneaker-type flats, I think your outfit sounds perfect.

  100. Chickaletta*

    Does anyone have experience negotiating a raise when it’s your boss who initiated the raise? At my performance evaluation, not only did I get amazingly good feedback, but my boss also said that I was being underpaid and that they would boost my pay. When I started two years ago, I didn’t have prior experience in my job title which is why I’m at the lower end. However, out of my counterparts who have had many more years of experience, he also mentioned that I would be the one up for promotion within our line of work, or even something else at the company if I so desire. I also have a degree which is not required for my job but is an asset and related to the work I do.

    Fortunately, my company publishes the pay range for each job title so I know exactly the pay range for my job. I’m currently in the lower 30th percentile. My question is, what should I ask for? I think 50th percentile at the very least, but maybe even more given what he’s told me about being in line for promotion. My hesitation is that becomes a huge pay raise that I ask for which could come across greedy or naive. Thoughts?

  101. KoiFeeder*

    More a vent than a request for advice, but,

    Professor used the “drink the koolaid” phrase, explained (very graphically!) the Heaven’s Gate connection, and then kept. using. it. for even the most tenuous reasons. And I can’t even complain because I’m afraid of retaliation (I complained about the fact that the same professor likes to call me “dear” instead of my name and now I’m not just “dear” but also “sweetheart” and “baby” and never my name).

    Sigh. Two more months.

    1. annakarina*

      That phrase actually comes from the People’s Temple in Jonestown, and while it was actually Flavor-Aid that they were forced to drink at gunpoint, it’s still an inappropriate thing to say because it’s insulting to the people who died in masse and thought of as mindless sheep instead of brainwashed cult victims.

      I’m sorry you’re in that situation, I hope the end comes soon.

      1. KoiFeeder*

        Even if it wasn’t massively insulting, using “drink the koolaid” as a way of telling students to comprehend the assigned readings is… hardly appropriate?

        I don’t know, I didn’t think this professor could shock or irritate me any further and here we are. I’m tired. Just waiting for the end.

    2. Fiona*

      The Kool-Aid reference was cringeworthy but “sweetheart” and “baby” and never my name” – that’s awful. I don’t blame you for not wanting to risk even more retaliation, but I hope you can document, document, document and complain again after the 2 months are up. Ugh.

  102. The Prettiest Curse*

    Thank you to everyone who tried to help me a couple of weeks back with the issues I was having in finding a Mac-compatible ergonomic keyboard with a UK layout. My employer’s Occupational Health service eventually got back to me and suggested this keyboard: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Logitech-Wireless-Ergonomic-Stain-Resistant-Bluetooth/dp/B07W6JLQCY

    I got it this week, it’s very comfortable to use and is fully Mac-compatible. It’s so nice to be able to use keyboard shortcuts again!

  103. DoomCarrot*

    I thought the AAM crowd might appreciate this one: I just finished writing my application for a job I’m applying to only because their ad is so refreshing. (They manufacture rather workaday teapots, so the field isn’t that exciting.)

    It said (translated):

    “Our company was established in 1968 and is now in its third generation of family ownership. So we’re not some hip start-up where we have all-you-can-drink chai lattes, free yoga classes, and endless overtime for demanding clients.

    Your future clients are your coworkers. They’re pleasant and professional. And we believe that as a rule, a full-time job should be done in 40 hours per week, and then you go home. Ordering pizza or after-dinner drinks is something you can do with your family and friends.”

    3. Fiona*

      I love this!! But sorry, I’m confused – what does “your future clients are your coworkers” mean?

      1. DoomCarrot*

        It’s doing in-house work for a task that’s often outsourced. Think graphic design or proofreading. So the role itself isn’t client-facing, where it typically would be something you’d do at company that provides that service.

  104. ANinnyMouse*

    Anyone ever walk away or given up on something you put a lot of time/energy/effort in? Are you content with how things turned out? Do you have regrets?

    For my situation, I went back to school after having no luck with job searching (and also trying to get my parents off my back). I did end up getting a retail job, and somehow managed to get through the pandemic while taking over the responsibilities of everyone else who got laid off. Now I’m being offered a better position with MUCH better pay. And I kind of want to quit school. It makes me so miserable and I’m not even interested in working in the field anymore. I know about sunk cost fallacy, but how does it apply when the thing you want to quit is supposed to benefit you??

    1. Mental Lentil*

      I would take the position. It offers you some very tangible things in the short term.

      You can always go back to school later, when you have a better idea of where you want to see yourself in the world.

    2. ferrina*

      Sunk cost fallacy is dependent on ignoring the ROI. In sunk cost fallacy, we ignore what the total investment is vs what our return is because “I’ve already done so much!” But here, you have to answer the question “How much will this benefit you?” And how much is it currently costing you?

      How long do you want to be in your current field? If it’s something that brings you satisfaction, you like the position and you can see it as a long term career (10+ years)- sure!

      It depends also on the degree. BA/BS is becoming increasingly required in a lot of fields. It’s hard to find an office job without one. It doesn’t (usually) matter what the major is, you need it to get in to an office. You mention that you’re not interested in the field, but if the degree is a BA/BS that applies to a lot of fields.
      A Masters/PhD/etc. is more specific to the field, and plenty of people walk away from these programs as they decide they don’t want to work in that field. I’d more readily recommend walking away from a Master/PhD/etc. than from a BA/BS.
      Financing also matters. School is costly. Do you currently have scholarships? Those are usually a one-time offer. Are you paying out of pocket/loans? Carefully weigh how much you want to continue to invest vs what your earning potential will be.

      School can SUCK. I hated it from kindergarten up through my Masters program. But I knew that once I was out I would never go back, so I had to get it all done in one straight shot so I would never have to go back.

    3. Reba*

      I think a consideration is how close are you to finishing? A few courses? Several more semesters? I’d give a different answer for those scenarios.

      On the whole, my feeling is that quitting is always an option!

      And I agree with the other Mental Lentil, the credits don’t go bad (at least not for a long time), so if you felt later like going back, you could.

      You sound like you could use a break.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      So, I can’t speak for you or your field. I can tell you that my partner walked away from his BS/BA and is now going back over two decades later, because he regrets having not finished. It has negatively impacted his career options. So, if you are working on a BS/BA I might struggle through to the end, especially if you’re close. It is possible to go back, but it can be really complicated, expensive, and stressful. And, as ferrina noted, jobs just want you to have a BS or a BA.

      Now, if you’re working on a higher degree, I would think very carefully. We have been in a pandemic and that can both make things foggy and make things more clear. If you think you’re in the field you want to be in and you feel like you’d be happy in that field in 10 years, I don’t see any reason to finish the degree.

    5. Annony*

      How sustainable is this job/career path? I get that it is much better right now, but will it be much better in 10 years? How useful is the degree to careers outside of the field you wanted originally? A bachelors degree, regardless of area of study, can open doors. A masters is less useful without a specific plan.

      If you feel burnt out and tired right now, maybe you should take a semester off and really think about it.

  105. Ada*

    When a job posting actually lists a salary range (yay!), but then the application requires your salary expectations, what do you put? If you feel you meet/exceed the requirements listed in the posting, do you just put the top of the range? Aim for the middle? What if they don’t list a range but a single number? (Is this a test??)

    1. ferrina*

      Not a test! (well, probably not)

      Put the number you want. It should be in the range- if you know you want more than the stated range, then it’s not worth applying.
      If they list a single number but still want you to put a range- well, that’s weird and frustrating. I guess I’d assume that they gave me the middle of the range. If you’re happy with that number, then you can put that number.

  106. New Job, New Shoes*

    I just got offered an administrative job in a hospital where I’ll be on my feet all day for long shifts! Please, other workers that are on your feet all day, could you recommend me the best shoes and socks for staying comfortable?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Oddly enough, Crocs are some of the comfiest shoes I’ve ever worn. They have clogs that are perfect for healthcare settings, and they’re washable!

      1. Sylvan*

        Seconding Crocs. I wore them while working with pets. They don’t all have the same look, so you don’t have to go for the typical Croc clogs if you don’t want to, and they’re very easy to clean. I mean, I bleached mine, washed the bleach off, and let them air dry. How many shoes can you treat like that?

    2. Lyudie*

      Danskos are quite popular with nurses and such, and I have a friend who swears by them. They are a little pricey but I have heard nothing but good things about them.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        They also last for-goldang-ever – I have two pairs of Dansko Professionals that are literally going on 18 years old and while I won’t say they still look brand new, they def don’t look their age and they’re in excellent physical condition. (They’re a little scuffed around the edges and could probably use some leather conditioner.)

        They are potentially problematic for folks with weak ankles though – I’ve never had any trouble myself, but I’ve known people to say it’s a little too easy to roll an ankle in them if you’re already prone to such a thing.

    3. The Prettiest Curse*

      My advice would be to see what type of footwear the nurses are wearing after you start. I worked a bit with nurses in a previous job and was impressed by their (entirely necessary) commitment to comfortable footwear!
      A lot of the nurses I knew wore Skechers brand shoes (worn them myself and they are light and comfortable), clogs or Crocs. I hope this helps and congratulations on the new job!

    4. Mr. Cajun2core*

      My wife is a university professor with bad knees. She wears Alegria shoes.
      I don’t think they are cheap but they are worth it. A nurse friend of ours has started to wear them based upon my wife’s recommendation. The friend loves them!

    5. AnotherLibrarian*

      Alegria, Dansko and Vionic are all brands I’ve been recommended for long standing periods.

    6. Squidhead*

      I like the Klogs brand better than Dansko…full coverage including a full back to the heel, and very little time to break in. My last pair lasted about 8 years and probably would have gone longer if not for a body fluid incident (not my fluids!). I do put arch support inserts in my shoes because of some knee issues, including these shoes. Dansko are probably more stylish, but these come.in solid black which is all I want!

    7. anon24*

      Can’t recommend shoes because I live in boots, but do yourself a favor and buy compression socks. I have several pairs of fun bright colored knee high compression socks that I wear every day and on days I try to skip them I end up with sore feet and ankles.

    8. rear mech*

      knee length compression socks under your pants or tights! Since links seem to be a problem, here is the google search term for the ones I have: Thorlos 12-Hr Shift Work Sock Over Calf

        1. Lizzie*

          Take an extra pair of socks to work each day and change your socks at lunchtime. Fresh socks are surprisingly rejuvenating.

  107. PC to Mac Transition Not Going Well*

    I’ve been teaching at the same school for nearly 15 years, and am generally happy. This year they switched us to MacBooks (we used to be able to choose a MacBook or a Lenovo ThinkPad). I understand that it’s much easier on the school for everyone to use the same kind of computer, but honestly it’s been 3 months and I’m just miserable.

    I use a PC at home for other work and recreation, and switching between them every day is the biggest problem. I got some relief by re-mapping the keys on the Mac (switching the command and control keys) so that basic shortcuts like copy and paste feel the same on both keyboards.

    I’m seriously considering leaving teaching altogether over this, though I suspect that has something to do with everything else that has happened this year. Seriously, who throws a new computer system at a teacher the same year they have to switch between normal teaching, fully online teaching, and hybrid teaching? Isn’t that enough change for one year?

    If you use a mac and love it, I’m very happy for you, and I’m not in a good headspace to hear about it. If anyone has tips to make this MacBook Pro feel more like a PC – more tips like re-mapping the Cntrl and Cmmd keys – please share! If you had to switch for work and used one system at home and one at work, how long did it take to not be so awful? And did anything help?

    Thanks :-)

    1. Alex*

      Can you say more about what is tripping you up? For a long time I had a PC at work and a Mac and home. Then I had a PC at home….and then got a Mac and work. Now I mostly use my work Mac because I pretty much work all the time lol.

      What are the moments where you find yourself throwing your mac out the window? Maybe we can help you specifically with them.

      1. PC to Mac Transition Not Going Well*

        I’ve been thinking about this since I saw your comment. I think a lot of my trouble is that I have a hard time naming what the problem is. When I can figure out what the problem is, I can google it. It just feels like nothing works like I expect it to. I’m used to be very good with my computer, and feeling like a total noob all the time is wearing me out.

        Fixing Finder and getting the windows to better right will help.

        There’s something about the screen settings that I can’t figure out. I never got headaches before, but my eyes burn when I spend too long looking at this. I’ve got the bluelight filter, and the brightness is reasonable, so I’m not sure what it is. Maybe I need anti-glare for my glasses? I never have before.

        This would be easier if everytime something weird happened, I could ask an officemate, but we’re not allowed to have shared offices right now (which is very sensible, given the pandemic). I’m just telling myself this will be better next fall over and over again. :-)

        1. tangerineRose*

          Does the screen show a white background? If so, if you can reverse the colors so the background is black, that’s *much* easier on the eyes.

          1. Clisby*

            Not necessarily – light type on a black background would have me clawing my eyes out. I know some people like it better, but I’ve never understood it. It would be like wanting my newspaper to be printed in white on black paper.

    2. Nikki*

      Have you looked into installing a virtual machine?
      Virtual machines allow you to create a PC “within” your Mac: https://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/best-virtual-machine-software-3671133/

      I have a lot of friends who run virtual machines on their Macs so that they can play PC games. :) It’s not the easiest thing to do, but it’s not the hardest either. You should definitely make a back-up of your files first. And if your school has an IT professional who might be willing to help you, look into that!

      1. PC to Mac Transition Not Going Well*

        Yes! A virtual machine was literally my second question to IT, right after “do I have to?” But I was denied. :-(

        I don’t have admin permission on the macbook, so I don’t think I could set up a virtual machine without ITs help. And I guess that might feel kind of wrong after I was explicitly told “no.”

        But I appreciate the thought!

    3. Reba*

      Sorry this is tough for you on top of everything else!

      One thing that really improves my Mac experience is an app that mimics the window snapping that Windows has (meaning, you drag a window to the edge and it auto resizes). The one I use is Rectangle, there are other options.

      Also, be sure to try the different view and sort options in Finder, to get it how you like it.

      1. PC to Mac Transition Not Going Well*

        I’m going to look up Rectangle now, as the way windows move on the screen is definitely a problem for me. Something about the way the two screens interact is just off in a way I can’t explain, but maybe Rectangle can help. Thank you!

        And Finder is absolutely a major source of stress. Luckily most of my stuff is in google drive, but I do occasionally want to open Excel, OneNote, or a pdf outside of the drive interface, and I can’t get finder to look right. I want icons, sorted by type, but without the horizontal scrolling because I use a mouse with a scroll wheel and scrolling horizontally doesn’t work. I’m getting around it now by inserting a number before the names of folders and files I need frequently.

        Because you mentioned it, I just googled some things and figured out to get the icons and type thing set as the default so I don’t have to change it every time. That helps. And I got the Path to appear, which was bothering me too. I think it’s just been so overwhelming, so many little things, that focusing on one thing – how to make Finder work better – was a really helpful suggestion! Thank you.

        1. Reba*

          I’m so glad! I have a very visual memory, so I know that when the file system looks different, even if all the contents are the same, it really throws me off. And when you can’t find your stuff, stress!!!

    4. Alexis Rose*

      This might sound flippant but it is an honest suggestion…can you just go ahead and your own personal PC? From my teaching experience, most teachers who last a long time do so by ignoring a lot of the directives from the administration…because you know in 5 years they’ll probably be forcing everyone to use PCs or something.

    5. Sydney*

      I’ve switched between Mac and PC for years, sometimes having one at home/the other at work. One thing that helped me was getting the exact same keyboard & mouse for both, so the feel and spacing between keys was the same at each machine. But really, it just took using both on the regular for me to be good with it. It didn’t take me very long, maybe a couple months?

      There is an app called Alfred, and it’s basically an app launcher with extra features. You type a keyboard shortcut (you can change the default) and a little box pops up, letting you search for apps, files, the web, and more including basic calculations. This will let you ignore Finder a great deal.

      If you haven’t gone through Finder’s Preferences, there are some options in there you can change that might help you out. Also try searching Lifehacker for some tips on customizing OS X / Finder; they used to have a ton of tips about it, plus articles about different apps you can use.

      I also second the recommendation for Rectangle, which lets you move windows around nicely and they’ll ‘snap’ in place.

    6. SummerBreeze*

      I started a new job last month that uses PCs. I haven’t used a PC in a decade. It has been a stunningly difficult transition, so I can empathize (just from the other direction!). Like it makes me feel like I don’t know how to use a computer, and I’m spending 3x longer doing work than I would on my Mac.

      It’s certainly gotten a bit easier over the 3 weeks I’ve been here but I completely feel you when you say you’ve considered quitting over it, because that thought crossed my mind too!

      I had no idea this would be the hardest part of my job. So, no solutions, but solidarity.

  108. Anna K*

    How many Zoom interviews is too many?

    I’m in the running for a new job that seems like a great fit. Over the past few weeks, I’ve interviewed with the internal recruiter, the hiring manager, and two director-level executives. Each was a separate interview of roughly 45min to an hour.

    Based on what the recruiter and some of the interviewers told me, I thought I was done with interviews. Today I got an email requesting I do another interview with a future colleague.

    I’m not opposed to the idea, but my family and friends are starting to express concern about the number of interviews. I figure it’s pretty equivalent to two or three rounds — one phone screen, a round with the hiring manager, and the virtual version of an “on-site” interview.

    I am a little concerned that they may do all these interviews and then reject me or choose another candidate… but that’s the risk of job-hunting, right?

    1. Hunnybee*

      I have been on a similar interview carousel. After weeks and weeks of ongoing zoom interviews and presentations, sometimes 1×1 and other times with large teams, I suddenly stopped hearing from the company and they have not responded to any of my gentle nudges to see if they’re interested in moving forward.

      At this point, with this specific company, I’ve spent roughly 12 hours between all stages of the interview screenings and interviews, and group presentations and whiteboard tests. Finally they scheduled four hours interviewing with them (I’m working full time while interviewing too so that’s tricky) so I feel like it’s really lame that they never responded after the massive time commitment I made over the past month.

      And that’s not all. Most of the companies I am interviewing have the same requirements, and again I am trying to fit this in to my full time job and the hiring managers are often less than sympathetic or accommodating.

      So yes, I made that all about me, but it’s not uncommon what you are going through and you may likely have a two or four hour interview in your future as well depending on the company.

      1. Anna K*

        I’m sorry that happened to you! How frustrating.

        So far they have at least been respectful of my schedule, which helps. Thanks for sharing your experience — I do think that several interviews is going to be the norm as long as in-office full day interviews can’t be done.

  109. Bambadjan Bamba*

    I came to my job specifically to work with an engineering manager who was widely regarded as one of the best any of my colleagues had ever worked with. The company brought in a GrandBoss, Medea, who immediately demoted our beloved manager, who then left the company. Of course.

    Now I report directly to Medea, who interrupts everyone, explains everything as if we just arrived from a land without work, micromanages, is hyper-critical, no personal boundaries, etc. Many of the senior engineers have left the team since Medea took over. We’re supposed to be shiny and happy and excited to have any opportunity to meet with Medea, who is hyper-sensitive to any potential lack of enthusiasm. We’re engineers, not generally a social group, yet if we’re not thrilled to be in any and every meeting with Medea, she openly calls it out. We can’t be off camera, yet our every expression is analyzed and commented on. It is oppressive.

    Medea makes all sorts of negative remarks about our former engineering manager (who we all respected), yet she demands our complete loyalty and trust. It has been a miserable. I now take half a xanax just to get through 1×1 meetings with Medea; like many of us I have been dealing with multiple personal losses over the past year which I do not want to talk about to this person and I’d like to simply focus on doing my best work. Medea has already let me know that there is no room for me to grow within the company or the team. My anxiety is through the roof, largely because of these interactions.

    I just want to do my job. But I’m exhausted: the world, the baby seals, the pandemic, my lack of faith in humanity — it’s all too much, and now I feel bullied and marginalized — and as icing on the cake of despair, any hope I had for my career has been summarily decimated. Other than interviewing elsewhere (which believe me I am doing but is every bit as demoralizing) I’d love advice on how to get through this situation.

    1. OtterB*

      This sounds awful.

      The only thing I can suggest for getting through is to anchor yourself in the things you know about yourself and your work – things that are your strengths, things that you liked about previous work situations, etc. It’s pretty clear you can’t make this situation better, but you can try to keep it from throwing you too far off balance. This is a setback, but it’s not decimating your career as a whole.

      Also, think ahead about references. Can you keep in touch with former engineering manager?

      1. Bambadjan Bamba**

        Thanks…yes, you are right, it’s important to take this within context. It is a chapter within a story. It has been hard to keep things in perspective.

    2. Anna K*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this.

      I’m stuck in a similarly difficult and oppressive work situation. I have been job searching but it feels like it takes forever, especially when you’re miserable every day at work.

      This job was supposed to be my dream job and it’s turning into a small nightmare. And I worry about what my boss will say about me when I leave, whether I’ll be labeled a quitter.

      Like you, my self esteem has taken a hit. It helps to talk about it with my friends and family, who are confident in my abilities. Sometimes you need to lean on people a little and that’s ok.

      No great advice on how to cope — just solidarity. Hang in there.

      1. Bambadjan Bamba*

        Thank you — sending you virtual support and good luck!!! It’s tough to keep spirits up for interviewing while working for someone who puts your soul in a blender every day.

        ….I literally have these minor anxiety tremors every single time my boss “checks in” even on slack, which is many times a day, because I am so completely triggered by this person.

        Anna K, I’m sending you some good karma thoughts this weekend.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      This is the ultimate example of “people leave bad managers, not bad companies.” I don’t suppose there’s any chance of getting a group together and having a meeting with Medea’s boss about this? If there’s noticeable attrition or turnover already and people are having increased issues (medical or otherwise) due to Medea-induced stress, that’s worth raising if possible.

      But if that’s not an option, what about a vacation? Medical leave/FMLA? Even a small thing like having a “broken camera” so you’re not on video for at least some period of time. Something to give you a break from her and save some energy for your job hunting. Can you reach out to the people who have left, for advice or job referrals? They’ll understand why you want out and might be able to help make connections.

      Less useful suggestions but some levity since I originally misread “Medea” as “Medusa” and the way to kill Medusa is to hold up a mirror: What if you took turns pre-emptively asking her on video calls why she looks so tired, or her mouth made that tiny movement or her eye twitched, is she okay?

      1. Bambadjan Bamba*

        Oh my gosh, I love that. Medusa is such an apt analogy here. I love the visual image.

        Some time off is in order, although I have to beg permission of my manager to take time off and can’t say that I need the time off because I am completely having panic attacks because of…my manager. : ( Literally, though, my chest hurts. It’s real.

  110. Yenda*

    Is anyone here in the accounting field? I’m set to graduate in a little over 2 years with 2 Bachelors Degrees, one in Business Administration and one in Accounting. I’ll be taking the CFE exam shortly after that as well. This is a complete career change for me and I’m interested in hearing what tip readers may have for me when I begin my job search. Also, how has the pandemic impacted the field?

    1. Lifelong student*

      Why not the CPA exam? That opens lots of doors- I would think more than the CFE

      1. Yenda*

        The tax side of accounting seems fairly boring to me. I know it’s a wider job market, but I’m looking more towards the auditing and investigative side.

  111. xanna.pdf*

    I’ve been at my current job for 3 and a half months and I’m interviewing for a promotion today! I’ve never been promoted – internally or otherwise, and am absolutely terrified/going to vomit with excitement.

    Any internal interview advice would be much appreciated! I’m having trouble in particular of thinking of questions to ask – I was thinking maybe “is there a part of the position that typically is a challenge for people stepping into it?” I work very closely with people in the role – so I feel like I understand the job, culture and differences from my current job far more than I would applying elsewhere – but I also want to not sound blase or uninterested (because again, SO INTERESTED!).

    Thanks so much all!!!

  112. Drtheliz*

    Any advice on striking the balance between “weirdly passive/submissive” and “entitled jerk” when making requests of your boss? Academia (specifically a PhD then straight into the only-ac-adjacent workforce) has messed me the heck up on this.

    I get thirty days’ holiday, my boss wants me to take it, but my instinct is always to ask permission! The one time I took advantage of WFH to send an email that basically said “yo, I’m taking Friday off, here’s the paperwork” (and not have to look Boss in the eye) I got a great response, but for longer than a day, I know we’re in a busy period and I know there are coverage issues so I don’t want to be just “off for a week and a half, see ya!” but really struggle with a tone that’s not Oliver Twist asking for some soup…

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I’ll normally say something like “I’m planning to take Marchuary 77-88 off. Does that work for you?”

      1. PollyQ*

        I would be just a bit more deferential, e.g., “I’d like to take Marchuary 77-88 for vacation, if that’s OK.” And many bosses like a decent amount of advance notice. I’d just ask your boss how much lead he wants since it’s so individual.

    2. Alexis Rose*

      Just notifying your supervisor of when you’re planning to take time off, especially when there are coverage issues, especially for time periods like a week, comes off as unprofessional. You should definitely check to see if that will work and not cause coverage problems.

      I would say the exception would be for major life events, like if you’ve planned a wedding or need to take time off to attend to the life event of someone close to you. For me that would be more, “I will need this time off, FYI.”

  113. Mme. Briet's Antelope*

    So I’ve been out of work for a while now and it’s been suggested that I might want to expand my job search. I’m in a somewhat niche field (archiving), and I theoretically have skills that could carry over into other fields, but frankly I’m so used to thinking of what I do as ‘normal’ that I have no idea what parts of my skillset would be interesting to other companies, let alone how to sell them. I’ve heard that there are recruiters who specialize in helping people jump into other fields, but I’m completely at a loss as to how to find them and whether it would be worth trying to work with one. Anyone got any experience/advice in this area?

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      My dear friend moved from an archiving position to a administrative assistant position. Her super organized brain (she did a lot of cataloging) was very well suited for the sort of detail oriented work that was needed for an admin job. When I seriously considered leaving Special Collections work, I ended up making a huge list of all the things I did all day and the things I was good at. Once I had the list, I was able to sort of think about what types of work I might be interested in that tapped into those skills- public service, organization, and research. I’ve never used a recruiter, so I can’t say if they are helpful or not.

  114. RickT*

    I’m a technical sales person but I’ve always phrased vacation requests as “Please approve my vacation from Monday (date) to Friday (date). It is a request for the time off but I assume it will be approved, and I let my manager deal with coverage issues.

    Around the holidays I’m more “I’d like to take Thankgiving week off but can delay until Christmas if needed”.
    I’ve rarely had to reschedule but I never start making reservations until I get formal approval.

  115. Butterfly Counter*

    Going to try to keep this vague for anonymity:

    I just had a coworker show himself to be racist to our whole office in an email chain. While the content of what he said wasn’t technically racist, he basically questioned an Asian coworker’s expressed experience of feeling terrorism at the shootings in Atlanta and the increase in violence against AAPI in the last year, who wanted to do something small in our community to counteract the hate. My racist coworker claimed that since we don’t know the shooter’s “true motive,” calling it a hate crime or terrorism is up for debate and we should therefore not do anything about it.

    More than 1/4 of my office is AAPI and many have confided to me that they have personally experienced attacks recently. My office overruled my racist coworker and we agreed to do the small thing suggested, but he’s continuing to want to debate the topic as though it was an intellectual exercise. My boss has shut down the “debate” but I’m still fuming. I’ve reached out to the coworkers I’m closest to to give my support, but I still feel like I should do something. I’m at a loss.

    1. WellRed*

      If your boss had truly shut this down your coworker would not still be trying to debate this issue. I think you could ask boss to shut it down, ask racist coworker to shut it down or speak up and say shut the eff up. Otherwise, I think you’ve done well. This is not ultimately yours to fix. It’s the boss.

    2. Crispy Pork*

      You only have so much authority here if you are not the boss. If the coworker continues to “debate” contrary to your boss’s instructions, report that and don’t engage.

  116. MaryAnne Spier*

    Just to get a little anxiety out… this is just venting. I’m 80% sure it will all be fine.

    Backstory: I am a high school librarian. I absolutely love my job. I love it so much. My first 15 years of teaching, I was a special ed teacher and while I loved my students, there is a lot that goes on with special ed behind the scenes (paperwork, testing, lots of deadlines and legal stuff) that eventually burned me out, so I got certified to be a librarian. I spent three years doing that and was so freaking happy, and then my district had budget cuts and I was eliminated and forced back into special ed. Same story; I loved my students but everything else was just a lot. On top of that, I went through a big depression having my dream job taken away. My blood pressure went up, I gained a bunch of weight, I had to start therapy. I took it really personally even though it wasn’t personal. More than depressed I was just really angry. You know how sometimes something unfair happens and it’s all you can think about? I would be out on a walk to clear my head and think, “YOU TOOK MY JOB AWAY FROM ME” even when I didn’t realize I was thinking about it. Stuff like that.

    After two years I landed my current job in a district closer to home for more money (which wasn’t the concern but you know, it’s nice) as a librarian again. I am really, really happy in this job. I feel like this is what I was meant to be doing, and my principal thinks I’m great. Work is fun again!
    Here’s the thing… due to one teacher’s health concerns and a mid-year retirement, my school has gone from four special ed teachers to two, and they are feeling it hard. To help, our district is having a special ed teacher from a sister school come to our school a couple days each week to ease the burden. There have been remarks from the special ed teachers that they know I’m certified and maybe I would be someone who could help out with testing or caseloads or something. All they’ve said directly to me was, “I’m surprised they haven’t asked you to step in.” The department head came to me and said, “If anyone asks you to do this, it didn’t come from me,” and basically told me that my name comes up in their conversations about their workload, but he keeps telling them that I have a full-time job in the building and I can’t be asked to take on another one. I called my union rep and asked if there was any way that I could be asked (forced, voluntold) to take on a caseload or do testing or hold meetings or basically anything in that realm, and the union rep said hard no, they can’t. I’m still getting side-eye from the special ed teachers. I don’t blame them… if it was me I would be thinking, “That jerk in the library has this certification and we’re all so stressed and she doesn’t do anything all day” (which isn’t true, I do a lot, but they might not realize all I do). The union VP stopped in the other day just on his regular rounds and asked how it was going. I told him that my only concern was being sucked back in because of emergency staffing concerns, etc, which sometimes happens in schools. He said no, they can’t do that, and if anyone tries I need to call him right away.
    So I feel like a jerk for not helping but I know that the real solution is that they just need to hire someone to replace the person who retired. If I offer to do something, I won’t ever be able to give that back. It will just become part of my job. Besides that, if I do step in to become a bandaid there won’t be as pressing a need to hire someone.
    I think I’m extra jumpy because I had my dream job once and had it taken away due to budget cuts and I’m really wary of it happening again once I get comfortable. OK, had to get that out. Thanks to Alison for providing a space to get some anonymous work jitters out!

    1. Emily Elizabeth*

      How frustrating! Good thing your union is on your side. Just keep in mind that the side-eye is definitely misplaced anger/burnout/frustration and that it’s the school’s responsibility to solve the problem, not yours to sacrifice yourself.

      1. MaryAnne Spier*

        Yeah, I get that they’re more angry with the situation than with me. I just try to be as helpful as I can in my capacity (assistance with technology and finding appropriate reading material, etc) without volunteering to take on any of their work.

    2. Disco Janet*

      Noooope, don’t do it. As I’m sure you know, you’d be setting a horrible precedent. Do not feel bad saying no. Some teachers have a tendency to find another teacher to view as a scapegoat in bad situations so that don’t have to admit that their school/district is the problem. I get the guilt, but let it pass and don’t assume the worst about what others are thinking – it’s unproductive and not good for your mental health.

      1. MaryAnne Spier*

        Yup, once I offer to run one meeting or do some testing, it will be my job to do more testing whenever it feels like they’re up against a deadline. The solution is that the district needs to replace the person who retired.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      Stay strong! I know how hard it is when you feel guilty for not helping out, especially because us librarians tend to be people who want to help. But, long term, you are 100% right that they will not hire someone if they don’t have to and you taking on the load just lets them kick the can down the road. One thing that has helped me (I’m in a similar boat) has been reframe my thinking from “can I do this” (because I might be technically able to do it) to “should I do this” which reminds me that the consequences of taking something on are real. That might help you, too.

    4. sequined histories*

      Definitely hold firm, but you can empathize with burnout: “I hear you! I love being a librarian for its own sake, but one reason I HAD to move on was I could NOT do on more (special ed thing). I hope they hire someone new soon!”

      1. MaryAnne Spier*

        I’ve gone so far as to make tea for them with my hot water heating pot when they’re stressed. I empathize. Nobody has directly asked me to do anything yet but it’s kind of this thing that hangs in the air.

    5. Anon teacher*

      Wow. I’m sorry that your colleagues are treating you this way. I was once the only (insert Special Ed position here) in a very needy school, and I knew our librarian was on her second career, but still certified in my field as well, and it never once even occurred to me to ask her to step in, no matter how high my caseload got. She had her full-time job, and I had mine. When mine became too much for one person, my supervisor (outside the school) was the person I talked to for additional help with testing or other needs, and our Special Ed department (for the county, not the school, since our school staff was already stretched too thin) had to fix it and find the resources.

  117. Emily Elizabeth*

    Is it better to accept a larger annual raise or a small raise but with the benefit of Roth IRA matching at 3%? I’m mid-20s and know very little about retirement savings, although it’s been on my list to research. I’m a teacher on a yearly contract and my boss caught me on the way out the door today to gauge my interest in the Roth IRA; they’re deciding whether to offer it to teachers next year. I know it’s late in the day but if anyone sees this I’d love the wisdom of the AAM community! Thanks!

    1. fhqwhgads*

      The raise. You can always set up and contribute to your own retirement account. Also they can revoke the matching in the future. A raise is much more likely to stick (and be built on later).

    2. RickT*

      I’d take the 3% contribution to a Roth especially since you are under 30. 30+ years of interest can become a LOT of money. A measly 1% rate becomes a 34% bump over that period but a 4% growth rate is 324% Since the Roth is post-tax that growth will come to you tax-free when you retire (at least under current rules).

    3. Pocket Mouse*

      Whichever route your employer goes with, set up a Roth IRA for yourself and contribute as much as you can (according to the yearly limit and your own finances). You still have a little time to contribute for 2020 earnings if you move quickly- seriously, just set it up, put money in for 2020, and do deeper research later.

    4. Rocket Surgeon*

      This is what Excel is made for! You can model both scenarios and see what the pros/cons are. My instinct says that the Roth option is better, as I assume they’re matching 3% of your net pay, or about 3 x ~1.25 of gross. And time means compound interest is your friend.

  118. Skye O'Malley*

    Quick question. Applied for a job I felt qualified for. Twelve hours later, I get a reply that that job has over 100 applications and would I be interested in a different one and when was I available for a phone screen. That job isn’t even posted yet. This was the first nibble I’ve had in a while and I really like the company. And the posting for the job I originally applied for is still up on their site. I understand after 100 applications they may have found someone who is close to being hired. I felt this was a lot to parse through e-mail so agreed to the interview for the second role and offered times to meet as requested. I’m not sure if that was the right move, though. Haven’t heard back all day.

    Is this a bait and switch? Should I inquire about the original role? Via e-mail? Wait for the screen, if it comes, to discuss? Thinking about it today, it pays more and I’m qualified for it. But I don’t want to do it. I really like the company and the original role, just thought this was better explained on-screen rather than in e-mail. I had been okay about the second role until I really, really thought about it. I also thought if I hesitated, they might never get to see how great I would truly be in either role or ‘meet’ me at all.

    1. Annony*

      It doesn’t sound like a bait and switch to me. From your description, the new role is a similar level (or higher) than the one you applied for.

      I think what to do really depends on what you are hoping to get out of it. If there is a chance you might be interested in the second role, do the interview and get more information about it. It doesn’t mean you are taking the job, just open to the possibility. If you are sure that you don’t want it, then let them know that after thinking about it, you really aren’t interested in role 2. But taking the interview for role 2 as a backdoor to get an interview for role 1 probably won’t work. You don’t want them to feel like you wasted their time and lied about your interest in role 2.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Maybe, maybe not a bait and switch. It sounds like the second job just might not be interesting to you personally and that’s fine. The fact that it’s higher paying makes it seem like a legit “you may also be interested in Y position.” But it does sound like they aren’t going to consider you for the first one at this point. If you decline the interview, you could write something like you’d like to keep your focus on jobs like the first one and to keep you in mind if their needs change.

      1. Skye O'Malley*

        Thanks to you both for your replies. Things were moving so quickly that I thought I’d be meeting with them in a few days and would just ask my questions then. I think if they do schedule the screen, I’ll do it focused on the second role, but then later on I will say I’m not interested. It is different enough and the increased salary isn’t worth it to me. But I do want to go on and make a good impression. I’ve never really had anyone from a company contact me later, but you never know and I do like the company and its mission. The original role still is up on the site, so who knows. I’m moving on in my mind, though.

        It’s tough out here. Good to know people feel I’m qualified, but I consider roles carefully and the roles I decide to apply to are the ones I’m truly excited about.

  119. Pure Confusion*

    I’m trying to get some opinions on what happened at my last job. It’s been a year since I left and I still feel confused about what happened there.

    I was an engineer working at a large engineering firm, and started there right after graduation. There was some restructuring a few months after I started, so I didn’t quite get to work with people that were going to mentor me. Manager assured me that it would be fine and I’d learn lots of things and would be doing well in no time.

    Fast forward a few years, I’m floundering a lot, and had been for a while… my work would be taken over by my manager and corrected without my knowledge. Getting feedback on my work was like pulling teeth. Manager was always busy, so it was hard to get in touch with them. They claimed they were so busy all the time, yet, hardly passed on projects to me when I would ask for work. Billability was very important, but I was not hitting the goals for billability.

    My last review was negative. Previous ones had been positive. Manager had told me at my first review that reviews mean nothing at that company and that there’s no point in trying to make goals. So I never put in effort into them. My last review consisted of my manager telling me I needed to go find my own projects, and that they would support me if I wanted to move to a different office or different company. But the thing is, I had previously asked about working with different departments and offices, and was told that it wasn’t allowed under the restructuring referenced in paragraph 2! Then, I find out in my last week working there that the reviews are very important!

    Ultimately I feel embarrassed and confused about what this means for me. I really tried to learn new skills, but felt that there were so many roadblocks. Did I ruin any chances of references from my manager, and other people who knew about my poor performance? What the heck happened? And how am I supposed to move forward, when, due to COVID, I can’t hit billability goals at my new company? I fill up with dread and terror when I think about my former colleagues speaking to my current colleagues (they have worked together in the past).

    1. Rick Tq*

      It sounds like you got hired and forgotten at LargeFirm and no one in management took the time or interest to build you up to full productivity. In a big company I can see you getting lost in the shuffle but your old manager was and is a failure for not giving you feedback and training, then flatly lying to you about reviews.

      That was then. You are at a new company and you will be judged by your current performance, don’t allow your manager to just ignore you, push for training and support. When you look for your next job the only references that mean very much would be from this employer, not your old one. With COVID changing everything I hope your new company is giving you some grace about low billability, it is a struggle for everyone.

      1. Pure Confusion*

        Thanks Rick Tq, that does clear things up. It was the first large company I had worked for, and wasn’t familiar any of that stuff.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I’m sorry this happened to you. That company sounds like a hot mess.
      That said, I’m not sure how much of a part you also played in this. You said you were floundering, though I’m not clear why? Was it your technical skills, or just ambiguity about what exactly you were supposed to do or what they wanted? But it sounds like you were certainly trying at least–and this is where your manager and your company failed you, especially as this was your first real job out of college. Worse, your manager lied about several very important things, and if there truly was a performance issue, they didn’t address it until it was too late to correct.

      Sadly, this isn’t uncommon in large companies that are going through a lot of restructuring. It may be you were let go for reasons other than performance (hence the lying by your manager). On the plus side, with a large company, often the reference checks only go to HR for verification you worked there. All you can do is do the very best work you can, ask for help from your manager when it’s needed and openly discuss roadblocks (such as Covid reducing billability) you’re having and how to best address things. Hopefully, you have a better manager at new company and they understand what’s within and without an employee’s control.

      In truth though, sometimes no matter how hard you try, you may still get laid off in bad times. Work is always precarious! Especially in the US nothing is ever assured. After the last recession in 2009, I learned to always have 6 months of income saved in case I should lose my job again. It took a long time to save that much, but it gives me some peace of mind.

      1. Pure Confusion*

        I guess it was a little bit of everything, I lacked technical skills, and what PMs wanted were ambiguous. I did put in effort to learn new softwares and such, but got in trouble for using someone’s license (didn’t know that was a thing). Got feedback from someone who said I really should know how to use said software, and they seemed surprised after I explained that I couldn’t due to lack of licenses. For the ambiguity, PMs loved to do that “here’s some resources, figure it out” method. But when I’d figure it out and was incorrect, they would be upset that I wasted time and money. Judging from my conversations with other young engineers in my network, this is very common :(

        I resigned a week before my state shutdown due to COVID, and in a way, I feel a little lucky. My coworker told me he was furloughed because there wasn’t budget for him, but the office turned around and hired two interns. There’s no doubt they would have laid me off or furloughed me. Thank you for your POV, MissDisplaced!

        1. Rick Tq*

          Wow! Consider your time at LargeFirm a graduate course in How Not To Be An Effective Manager. So said to see new grads wasted because of a complete lack of support.

  120. Courageous cat*

    I can’t remember if I already asked this. Tell me about starting at a new company remotely. How do I train without being directly next to somebody?! Am I going to be on Zoom literally all day? Is it going to be so stressful?

    I am terrified for some reason. Zoom is just much more exhausting and being on camera sucks and I wish I could train in person for a week THEN go remote.

    1. Courageous cat*

      (that said, for anyone who cares, I’m moving from supply chain into logistics! I’m so excited! I despise what I did in supply chain!)

    2. Decidedly Me*

      Folks on my team do a mix of Zoom meetings, solo learning, and shadowing (sometimes with a screenshare so they can ask questions of the person they’re shadowing and sometimes just by hanging out on the software we use and seeing what people are doing). For most of these, cameras are not turned on.

      I haven’t received any feedback saying the format is stressful to people (and I get a fair amount of feedback on other training things, so I don’t think folks are just holding back).

    3. tangerineRose*

      It depends. You might be able to use IM and/or e-mail a lot too. Do they have good documentation?

    4. SummerBreeze*

      I onboarded virtually at a new job last month. I can’t believe how smooth it was, honestly! Yes, I was on zoom essentially all day that first week, but my company was incredibly organized and efficient with it and built in some breaks for me each day. We used Teams which also made the process so easy — and they set up Teams training for me, which was great.

      So, be prepared for zoom fatigue, but hopefully your place is as great at it as mine was!

  121. OceanCityGirl*

    I got promoted recently after a ton of extra work I did building out a new program for our company (one which brought in mid six figures in contracts). Today one of my coworkers accidentally posted a message meant for private chat into the larger group chain implying that I didn’t earn my title and that now I might have to do additional work.

    I wasn’t at my desk when this happened so I had no idea what was going on until she called me to apologize. I accepted and my boss is doing all the right things about it, but I feel so humiliated. I don’t know how to act normal at work going forward when I know that deep down my coworkers don’t like or respect me.

    1. Just Another Manic Millie*

      “I know that deep down my coworkers don’t like or respect me.”

      I don’t know why you think that. It was one jealous co-worker who posted something catty (and untrue) about you. And she apologized, which I for some reason doubt was sincere. I feel that she apologized because your boss or her boss told her to do so. You already know that your boss has your back. For all you know, your co-workers all think less of her for trying to put you down. Just wait and see what happens before you get used to feeling humiliated. If anyone should feel humiliated, it should be her.

      1. tangerineRose*

        Yeah, this could just be 1 jealous troublemaker. If anyone refers to it again, you might want to say something like “I think the promotion might be related to the new program I wrote for our company that brought in mid six figures in contracts.”

  122. SnappinTerrapin*

    I thought I couldn’t be shocked by bad management anymore.

    My son was taken by ambulance to the hospital and spent three days in ICU with complications from diabetes, and followed up with his primary care physician on Monday following release, missing Thursday, Friday Saturday from work. His HR knew he was diabetic.

    He returned to work Tuesday, and was warned another absence would cost him his job. Wednesday, he asked HR how the FMLA and ADA applied to his situation.

    They fired him immediately.

    He has been waiting for his COBRA paperwork.

    That was the 10th of the month. While trying to refill his insulin prescriptions today, we were told by the pharmacist that his insurance was canceled on the 10th.

    Needless to say, we will follow up with the Department of Labor and some plaintiff’s lawyers in the near future.

    The only question I can propound is rhetorical: How can anyone be so vicious and stupid?

    1. Mimmy*

      I am not really familiar with FMLA but I know the ADA fairly well, so my answers comes from that angle.

      If your son’s employer has more than 15 employees, he could have a strong ADA case; at the very least, you probably have grounds for a discrimination complaint since they knew he had diabetes, which can be considered a disability under the ADA’s definition.

      Good luck! That’s pretty rotten.

      1. SnappinTerrapin*

        Yes. They are a large enough business to be subject to all these laws. Enough employees at this site and subsidiary of an international manufacturer.

        It doesn’t even save them money on the premium for the insurance they paid at the first of the month. Just spiteful people.

    2. 653-CXK*

      Wow…your son has diabetes, stays three days in the ICU, gets warned by his company that if he’s absent again he gets terminated, son (within his rights) asks about FMLA and ADA, then gets canned on the spot for asking about it?

      Your son’s former company is rife with spiteful &%?#$%@&. Yes, please do follow up with the Department of Labor and your lawyers, because a #%$! move like this guarantees them a stiff fine should they be found guilty.

      Your son did the right things. Hopefully he will find a better job where the company has at least some modicum of empathy and understanding towards his health condition.

  123. Mademoiselle*

    Be confrontational, or be passive?

    I started working at a start-up a couple of months ago. From the start, I had a bad feeling about the place — overwork, inflated numbers, toxic cliques, casual racism. I dread every day there. I’m doing my work while quietly applying to other roles.

    There’s an intern working under me who has been rogue since I started my position. He started his internship before I was hired, and has never respected any authority from me. He often asks around me for help (including my manager when I ask him to speak to me directly first) and doesn’t work on tasks he’s asked to, especially if they are things I am managing. Frankly, it’s hard to communicate this issue because most of my team members are within the same race, which I think leads him to “trust” their authority more, and challenge mine. I don’t like my job enough to discuss with him further, and the other leaders don’t experience this issue with him because of their longer tenure.

    On a personal level, I don’t care because I despise my job and am not motivated to repair a relationship that I hope won’t exist in a few weeks (if I can find work somewhere else). Professionally, I am wondering if it’s time to loop my boss in, as she is noticing that he leverages her for help instead of me. Any advice appreciated!

    1. Malika*

      How important is it for you to sort this situation out with the intern? If nothing else, it might be a training ground if you are confronted with this behavior elsewhere. You can address the facts, and it might be effective. If it doesn’t, at least you have shown yourself enough respect to attempt to solve an issue that is wildly disrespectful of your authority.
      I had the same issues as you at a startup. It was a complete wild west of a workplace where basic courtesy and proffesionalism had flown straight out of the window. I was much happier when i left. One triumph was that for the first time in my life i was able to keep the rageathons of my manager from being internalized. I distinctly remember him going off on one for the umpteenth time and thinking ‘I am going to leave those feelings with him, they are not going to permeate me. ‘ . It was a huge professional breakthrough and in my new, sane job it has sporadically been a good skill to have.
      I hope you are able to find the silver lining in your situation at this place, and get out as soon as you can.

      1. Mademoiselle*

        It’s not important to me. I think the effort would be futile, and I don’t want to reward his disrespectful behavior with attention that will be shrugged off anyway. But I also don’t want to seem passive / non-confrontational / cowardly. Writing this out has helped me realize that aside from setting boundaries when challenged, I won’t invest anything else into it emotionally / professionally.

        I think you’re onto something about not internalizing the bad behavior of others. I think I’ll keep my head down and look for other opportunities, as his behavior is pretty typical of this workplace environment anyways.

        Thanks for the feedback, and I am glad you are in a sane working environment now!

        1. Malika*

          I hope you get out soon and are able to invest only the minimum amount of energy required! The new job is around the corner, and it will feel like a daily trip to a spa compared to this one.

  124. Hmm*

    My coworker congratulated me on making it one year at our company and said “You know what they say, making it one year here is like making it 5 years.” Before I could clarify she logged off so I don’t know what that means. It has been a really difficult position. How would you take it?

  125. Whiskey on the rocks*

    I am really late to this party but 4 (Yes, 4) work related questions have been nagging at me this week:
    1. I applied for a county job. The application does give an option to say no, don’t contact my current employer, but at the top it says they have a policy that they may contact employers without your express permission. What??? I almost didn’t complete the application because I am not ready for my boss to know I’m looking but kind of fudged by using a legitimate phone number that almost no one answers. Is this a thing now?

    2. The discussion around pronouns has really got me thinking. It is a subject close to my heart, and I would like to help normalize specifying pronouns, plus from a practical perspective, my name can be used for both males and females. The spelling usually differs but the pronunciation doesn’t, and most people don’t notice the different letter, so adding she/her would help hiring managers identify me. But I live in a pretty conservative area and I’m thinking adding this to my cover letter is putting off hiring managers. Yes in theory that helps me weed them out but….

    3. Also cover letter related, any new job I take will be a significant pay cut. Because of my tenure and my current bonus structure, I will be halving my pay or even more. I am fine with this and do have a floor. But since almost every application has asked for my current salary (I’m not including the bonus, just the base) I think it’s also putting off employers. What’s the best way to address that in the cover letter? I’ve been relying on “I’m changing jobs and fields because I want to work in and for my home county and its benefit” but that may not be direct enough?

    4. On that salary. Do you ever feel guilty about your paycheck? I was promoted from where my team is, so I know exactly what their paychecks look like. One of my team was stressing about a bill, and while I wouldn’t love paying it, I also wouldn’t have to think twice about whether I could. Yes, I have worked hard for it, and it’s not like I feel that I don’t earn it, but holy crap I feel guilty sometimes about the difference between what I make and what they do. Plus in my personal life, I sometimes feel like I should be giving money to friends and family who are struggling to make ends meet. They aren’t asking it or expecting it, but I feel like if I were a more generous person I’d be offering it! Does anyone else ever feel like this?

  126. frustrated teapot engineer*

    Hi there – I’m looking for some commiseration / shared experiences. I have a teapot engineering job that I’ve been trying to get out of for over a year, I’ve been working hard at finding a new job…obviously a slow-down on that end happened due to the pandemic, but things are looking up – I applied to two jobs at a govt agency where I am well connected, even got through the initial screening at one place, waiting on results etc., but given that it’s a govt agency, this takes extra time. In the meantime, my dayjob seems secure, but I’m very unhappy there – there’s constant stress/anxiety induced by upper mgt (vp level) with unrealistic deadlines, changing deadlines, a culture of constantly pressing on ppl to rush when it’s not necessary or b/c mgt wants to save money where it really doesn’t make sense, lack of recognition pay or otherwise. I had to angrily rant twice to two diff friends this week. The anxious environment at my job definitely impacts my sleep; I am under the care of a great doctor who manages my insomnia well ( also when I was temporarily laid off last year my sleep drastically improved, this wasn’t a coincidence…even temporarily tightening of finances didn’t impact the sleep improvement – having less money but not working did wonders for my sleep).

    What I’m looking for is …anyone who’s been through something like this and was waiting for a job change…how did you get through? What did you tell yourself as you were crossing your fingers and toes for something better to come along? I definitely cannot afford to quit, I need the salary to make a living.

    1. Skye O'Malley*

      I tell you these teapots . . .

      What’s helped me is I actually formed a support group of other folks also dancing on the edge of leaving their jobs. I had a spiritual community I could find friends from there to attend. It helps so much just to share our stories each week and be heard. And realize you’re not alone in your job struggles. You aren’t. Across the country a lot of us are in similar situations.

      Utilizing my creativity and leadership skills with the group keeps my focus off work a little. I also am really babying myself well. I’m listening to virtual sound baths (some are free on YouTube) and I take baths with magnesium sulfate flakes so I can sleep better. I eat healthily and well. And now I’m going out and sitting in the sun for a few minutes at lunch. Whatever works for you. Even five minutes a day can help reset from the negativity. This too shall pass. And I’ve reduced other activities temporarily. Job seeking while working at a toxic workplace is difficult and it takes a lot of my energy to maintain positivity and hopefulness as I wait for my new job to come through. I try to really congratulate myself on making it through a week, to a phone screen, any small success. We’ll get there.

      And, of course, reading this site helps as well. :-)

      1. frustrated teapot engineer*

        Thank you very much for sharing. I really appreciate it. You situation and strategies gave me some great reeminders to continue to be kind to myself while dealing with my situation. I couldn’t agree more, job searching while in a job like that is very very energy consuming, and I too have had to cut back on doing certain things and keep focused on my well being. Thank you again, your entire comment is really helpful. Lots of luck to you as well.

  127. Dragon Toad*

    I need some quick advice from people! A job opportunity in my field has come up – a PAID one. Which is fairly rare for an industry that is 80% run on volunteers. Not only that, but from their page long list of requirements, I can tick every single box and then some. I don’t think I’d call it my dream job, but I volunteered at this organisation previously, nearly cried when my time was over, and have already signed up to volunteer again for another three months once travel is open – I loved it that much. So suffice to say…I want this, and have a heck of a good chance of getting it!

    Only one problem. They want a video presentation in lieu of a cover letter, where I explain why I think I would be the best for the job and what personality I can bring to the team. Not too bad, but the time limit is less than 2 minutes. Excluding an opening and closing sentence, I essentially have ONE PARAGRAPH in which to argue my case, unless I talk like I’m performing in Hamilton.

    How in the ever loving HECK do I essentially write a successful cover letter in just one paragraph!?!

  128. Faulty Teapots*

    I am struggling with the two assistant teapots under me. I am a lead EA pot but not the boss – they report to their teapot management and support baby cups. I work with the larger teapot. Assistant teapots aren’t strong in terms of experience and don’t want to work. Experience stated doesn’t match with the quality of work they put out. One assistant teapot repeatedly completes the processes wrong after being given direction (verbal & written). Teapot went to higher EA teapot to ask about the same process. A bit dishonest about what she’s been told and selective about what she retains. Second teapot only does minimum work. Doesn’t like to step up at all. Recently had to oversee a project while I was out and ended up giving direction via phone. Teapot management (they don’t want to be bothered) not aware and feeling frustrated because if I need other teapots to back me up, it doesn’t feel like I have their support. Teacups are easily offended and defensive.

    Any suggestions on how to handle because I am really frustrated.

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