open thread – April 23-24, 2021

by Alison Green on April 23, 2021

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. LI quirks*

    Every single week when I get the LinkedIn notification about my profile coming up in X number of search appearances, my own company in is the list. So somebody at my company is looking for my job title, literally weekly. We are not hiring, as far as I know (I’m in a department of three). Anyone have insight on what’s up with this?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Two thoughts.
      1) They could be using your profile, instead of a resume on file, in order to work on the personnel section for proposals and bids.

      2) LinkedIn’s algorithm is crappy, and what’s happening is that people are visiting their own profiles and their connection lists, and pulling up that list counts as a ‘search’. I don’t have proof of it, but I see similar weirdness on my account.

      1. BadWolf*

        Yeah, I feel like LinkedIn sends me weird stuff. And recommends odd links/people/skills/etc. I wouldn’t assume that you can draw a straight line between what LinkedIn claims is happening and someone intentionally searching on your title.

      2. Haven’t picked a user name yet*

        I get them too. It just means you showed up in a search (I think that is how it is worded). So either it is a new colleague (or existing connection that wants to quickly find my profile) or someone searched “senior teapot designer” in the Boston area and I popped up.

        It doesn’t really mean anything. They just send us the emails hoping we want more details and will subscribe to premium.

        1. Coenobita*

          I look at LinkedIn all the time to remind myself of the answer to things like “wait, is it This Colleague or That Colleague who used to work at Partner Org?” or “was That Other Colleague working here yet when we finished Big Project?” It’s faster than asking them and the information is more detailed than our externally facing staff pages. I’m sure those searches lead to all sorts of notifications!

      3. The New Wanderer*

        My money’s on lousy algorithm. I don’t have Premium so I only get the first 5 companies that “found” me that week and not the individuals who ran the search. And the very few times it tells me what search term found my profile, it’s totally generic. “Engineer” or “software” or “manager,” none of which have anything directly to do with my work but are words that exist in my profile.

        Even when I had the free Premium trial, the number of times “this person viewed your profile” was someone I knew or had any reasonable connection to my work was very, very few. It was helpful when I was actively job searching because I could see if a hiring manager or someone at a company I applied to viewed my profile, but otherwise I really don’t care if Sales Manager Joe happened to receive my profile in a quasi-random keyword match.

    2. Lucy McGillicuddy*

      Could someone be searching for you, specifically? Maybe to look at your contacts or something (that could be a non-creepy reason).

      1. Can Can Cannot*

        It’s helpful that LinkedIn tells you how people have found you (via search, the home page, etc.).

    3. Caterpie*

      My school’s career department suggested we find a superstar in our field who we want to emulate, and model our LinkedIn profile after theirs (but gave us the name of someone who previously agreed to have their page shown as a model).

      Maybe someone at your company really likes the way you’ve done your profile and keeps coming back to it for inspiration as they work on their own?

    4. JitzGirl11*

      I’m relatively new to my position at work, having started last summer. I have not met any of my new colleagues in person yet. I will sometimes look at LinkedIn profiles to remind me not only what their role is, but how long they have been with the organization, what other skills they might have that could help me continue to onboard, get an idea of someone’s expertise if I haven’t had a meeting with them yet, etc. It’s a good information gathering tool for me since I don’t have the regular options for getting to know colleagues in-person yet, especially since our department restructured recently and there are more overlapping projects getting started.

    5. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Maybe someone who ONCE worked at your company is searching for your job title, and LinkedIn decides that counts as someone currently AT your company because the company is listed in their profile. maybe???

      IDK, HR might be doing a review of job descriptions and wants to compare with other Llama groomers

    6. 3DogNight*

      I check co-workers Linked In before I set up meetings, or if they send me a meeting invite. Our company directory tells me their title, but nothing else. That may be all it is.

    7. Mantis Tobaggan, MD*

      My previous job title always shows up in my “people who searched you” list. Its definitely my looking at my own profile

    8. WellRed*

      LI is always telling me I appeared in X number of searches. People are definitely not searching for me that often.

  2. Noncompliance Officer*

    So I work in a female-majority workplace (literally the ratio is maybe 9:1). Our dress code is business casual and our (outdate) HR manual specifically forbids athletic or leisure wear; however, tights and leggings have been allowed in the past as long as your butt is covered (long tunic, dress, whatever). Over the years and especially in the last year apparently it has become an issue that people are wearing leggings without having their butt covered. This has created a rift in the office, mainly between the younger and older workers. My boss and the HR director are to the point where they are just going to ban leggings, tights, etc. because they are athletic wear.

    We have been asked to “keep a look out” for employees dressed inappropriately and to send anyone home to change. I am one of only two male managers. Both of us don’t feel comfortable inspecting the fit, fabric, etc. of our female employees daily. Neither of us was aware this was even an issue. We have been told if this problem doesn’t go away in a month then the ban will go in effect.

    Where does the community come down with this? I am clueless about this. For context, we just did an employee satisfaction survey and probably the number one complaint was the way some workers dress. At the same time blanket bans like this tend to hurt morale.

    1. Tek5508*

      I think you might explain to all employees about the upcoming ban, and that it WILL go into effect if the leggings issue isn’t self-regulated. Or , as an alternative, is there a female manager who can speak up about this?

      File this under “this is why we can’t have nice things”

    2. R*

      Leggings aren’t appropriate in a business casual environment. Put the ban in place already and stop asking men to look at women’s butts to make a judgment call on ‘appropriateness’. I mean, give people warning that the ban is coming so they have time to get new clothing if required. But otherwise, just make a rule and stick with it.

      1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        I agree with R. Just ban leggings and yoga pants

        Tights is a strange thing to add to the list…are women really walking around with ONLY tights on?

        1. New Job So Much Better*

          My question also…. tights are only for under skirts… not as outerwear….

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          I don’t think we’re all using the same definition of tights. Because if we are… yeah, yikes, that’s not okay.

          1. londonedit*

            Yeah, the UK definition of tights is something with feet, ranging from quite sheer to very opaque. You’d absolutely wear tights under a dress but there’s no way in the world you’d wear tights with a t-shirt.

            1. Rusty Shackelford*

              In the U.S. the definition is very similar, except that tights are opaque rather than sheer. But yes, they have feet and they’re meant to be worn under a dress or pants.

          2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

            I know that tights can come in a variety of material and sheerness, but once an item has feet, it’s now hosiery and that’s never worn alone. (rhetorical question to the universe, not you specifically, but can you imagine someone thinking pantyhose are pants?)

            1. The Rural Juror*

              I mean…have you seen “Robin Hood: Men in Tights”?

              In all seriousness, I agree with you. To me, tights=pantyhose/hosiery

            2. Quandong*

              I’ve seen multiple women wearing semi-sheer tights in the CBD of a large city. They were worn as though they were leggings.

              This was at least 10 years ago before athleisure became accepted as regular street wear.

              1. Quandong*

                To clarify – these were worn as the sole layer on the legs, in lieu of a skirt or trousers, and also not in the presence of a long tunic. The women looked from the waist up like office workers so I can’t speculate on profession.

          3. The Original K.*

            Exactly. Tights are thicker pantyhose, to me. They are hosiery, and thus sheer, and thus not to be worn by themselves. I wear tights under skirts in winter. I might wear tights under pants in winter, if it were really cold. But wearing tights by themselves is akin to being pants-less, to me.

            1. I'm just here for the cats*

              I think if someone is using leggings in place of pantyhose it should be allowed. Pantyhoes are sheer and worn under a skirt or dress. In the winter I would wear leggings over pantyhose because they are warmer.

              Instead of banning them all together couldn’t they just make a rule that leggings must be worn with a top that goes at least to mid-thigh or fingertip length, or whatever covers the woman’s butt?

              Also, if they are banning tights, that’s odd because tights are just like pantyhose. They are usually not as shear and sometimes a bit thicker (I’ve had flease lined tights for winter.)

              I do think that its odd that they are asking male coworkers or managers to report on what their female employees are wearing. That just seems wrong and if I were you I would push back. I’m sure someone could look at that as being sexual harassment or something.

              Furthermore: is there really a need to police the dresscode to such an extent? If your business casual, I don’t see that having leggings on under a skirt is a big deal, even if your customer facing. Is it just this one HR person who is so old school and can’t get off their high horse and see things change.

            2. Momma Bear*

              Agreed. Tights are great in cold weather when your legs will freeze. They are not pants by themselves.

          4. Haven’t picked a user name yet*

            I don’t know. They are often just leggings. I have tights I wear under dresses and I have running tights, which are leggings.

            1. Haven’t picked a user name yet*

              I should have added I only wear tights under a dress to work! :-)

              1. NotRealAnonForThis*

                Oh no, I have some running tights that are absolutely worn under plain dark dresses and skirts because the patterns are awesome AND I’m not hitching at the stupid waistband all day.

            2. TechWorker*

              Yes, running or cycling leggings sometimes get referred to as ‘tights’, but that probably doesn’t change the rule (I think it would be fairly clear to people that skirts with hosiery type tights are fine..)

          5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            The definition varies regionally.

            Here “yoga pants” are the new term for it but when I was younger you called them tights, spandex or leggings. All of which are the same.

            Pantyhose are pantyhose, not tights.

            It’s just a word jungle.

            1. Yorick*

              Tights, spandex, and leggings are not the same. Spandex is a fabric so tights or leggings could be made out of it. Tights are similar to pantyhose and leggings are similar to sweatpants in a way but they are thin and tight.

            2. Rez123*

              I feel like the term yogapants has changed. When that concept first came mainstream here they were tighter sweats that look a bit more together than the grey sweats the kids wear now. Now yoga pants seem to be leggings.

          6. Oxford Comma*

            Yeah, if we’re talking thick versions of pantyhose, those absolutely should not be worn without the butt being covered.

        3. Dust Bunny*

          Yeah, what?

          Unless people are either unclear on or dickering about the difference between tights and leggings?

        4. kiki*

          I’ve heard some people refer to what I’d call leggings as tights– usually in the context of running. If you google “running tights” the results are generally what I’d call athletic leggings.

        5. RagingADHD*

          At my last office job I did in fact see a couple of people walking around in very, very thin clingy spandex bottoms that looked like tights, with only a shirt, not a skirt or dress. I can’t vouch for whether or not they had toe seams, but they were not substantial enough to be what I would call “leggings”.

          Over here in the US we also have “footless tights”, which are intended as tights but are more comfortable to wear with socks and boots because they stop at the ankle. I suppose some folks confuse them with leggings.

        6. Seeking Second Childhood*

          We had someone at the office who wore leggings of such thin fabric that I suspect they were better called “footless tights”. Underwear color was discernible. And that was the hook to get the problem solved, because our handbook says no visible underwear.

        7. hamburke*

          My running leggings are sometimes called tights and they are very opaque. I think that’s what it’s addressing.

    3. costume teapot*

      This is pretty up there so far as “things that don’t affect your work,” alongside “what someone else eats” and “what car someone else drives.” I can’t believe people are so bothered by the clothing on anyone else’s body. Is it because it’s “against the rules,” or they truly have a problem?

      I would consider giving your team a blanket heads up that a potential ban is incoming. You have the heads up, and this would put them on notice without you having to inspect anyone’s clothing. I would definitely be skeeved out if my boss told me that too much of my butt was uncovered by my blouse.

      1. Dust Bunny*

        From an observer’s perspective: Far too many wearers of leggings believe that leggings are more opaque than they actually are. Leggings stretched over your hand to check for opaqueness? Pretty opaque. Leggings stretched over my rear end and thighs? Much, much, less opaque, especially if they aren’t brand new.

        1. OhNo*

          The opacity issue could certainly be making people uncomfortable. Another thing I’ve heard mentioned when leggings-bans are brought up is how visible underwear lines can be – I could see that making people uncomfortable as well, though ideally no one would be looking for that sort of thing.

          If either of those was the case, though, I would see that as more falling under a “no visible underwear” rule, and it wouldn’t really require a separate ban on leggings. It seems silly to ban a specific item of clothing just because some people wear it in a less-than-professional fashion.

          1. Kt*

            Honestly I think it’s ok for a workplace to request that one cannot easily tell the color, pattern, and cut of underwear. If I can tell you that you’ve got a turquoise dino-print thong on and that you do or don’t shave, that’s too much info for the workplace.

            But I would not outlaw simple VPL. I try to avoid VPL (visible panty line) but with some cuts of pants, with some fabric, with some undies, you can tell that I am wearing underwear at certain moments. You can’t tell what color, brand, print, or cut for sure — but you can tell there is another item of clothing covering things because of a little ridge when walking but not when still, for instance. And that shouldn’t be a shocker.

      2. Hei Hei, the Chicken from Moana*

        Thank you. This is so incredibly sexist and plan absurd. Push back and say that you’re not going to police clothing b/c you aren’t a jerk.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      Who are the people pushing for this? Can those people be in charge of enforcing it? Do they really want you to say “Hey, you need to cover your butt” to your co-workers or direct reports?

      1. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

        Right. They are putting OP and the only other male manager in a really awkward position. HR just needs to send out an email saying that due to the increasing laxness in employee attire, they’re no longer allowing leggings or tights to be worn as pants in the office starting X date. And if they care that much about ensuring people are actually following this new mandate, they need to figure out a way to monitor for this and enforce the new rule.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Honestly, I know the workplace isn’t the same as a high school, but I used to work in high schools, and there were always a set of teachers (private school, public school—doesn’t matter) obsessed with policing girl students’ dress, and it just seemed extremely sexist to me (and to the students). I’m not saying workplaces can’t have their own dress code standards, but the policing, particularly of female dress rubs me the wrong way.

    5. StripesAndPolkaDots*

      I find it confusing that the number 1 complaint is about how other people dress. Unless some people are wearing literal see-through tights as pants and you can obviously see their underwear I just don’t understand the outrage. This is coming from a woman who has worked in multiple professional jobs where people generally dressed business casual but no one cared if you wore leggings. They’ve all been majority woman workplaces. Also I’d be pissed if I couldn’t wear leggings even while covering my butt with a dress or tunic. I don’t even own pants without stretchy waists anymore.

      1. StripesAndPolkaDots*

        I also wonder if these people are in customer/client facing positions or not. If not I extra don’t see why anyone would care. When you’re at your own desk all day why does it matter?

      2. Cat Tree*

        Yeah, this is a weird hill for the coworkers to die on. Sometimes people wear clothes we don’t particularly like, but if it doesn’t affect my job and isn’t harassing to me, I don’t press the issue.

        This sounds like either a control freak power trip by the older coworkers, or they have nothing better to occupy their minds.

      3. Generic Name*

        Because some people seriously lack judgement around this issue. I worked with a woman who regularly wore leggings as pants to work. One particular pair had a white pattern on it, and her underwear was visible through her pants. One of her peers discretely told her you could see her underwear (I saw her myself; you could totally see her underwear) and this coworker said very loudly, “No! You cannot seem my underwear!!”.

        1. Generic Name*

          I forgot to add that HR added “leggings worn as pants” to our very sparse and lax dress code.

        2. pancakes*

          And? I see people wearing all sorts of clothes I consider a poor choice. Personally I really dislike the look of bras with lumpy lace or appliqués under fitted shirts. Unless someone asks whether I think their look flatters them, though, why make a point of telling them so?

          1. RagingADHD*

            Because most people would consider it a kindness to be told that they are showing things they didn’t mean to show and can’t see for themselves, like having their dress tucked into their underwear, or having spinach on their teeth.

            With stuff like the texture of a bra or visible nipple piercings, it’s safe to assume they know already.

            1. Nettie*

              Sure, it would be a kindness to tell someone their pants are see through…but I would never complain about it on an employment satisfaction survey. That’s just really weird for me.

          2. Sylvan*

            I and I think a lot of other people would want to know! I’m not trying to show that to anyone who doesn’t want to see it! I’d tie a sweater around my waist or something right away.

      4. Rusty Shackelford*

        I find it confusing that the number 1 complaint is about how other people dress.

        Yeah, there’s got to be something extreme going on. Either people are dressing so badly that their coworkers are angry about it, or people are so uptight about what other people wear that they’re angry about it. Or half the staff are allowed to wear whatever they want and half are policed more stringently by their managers and they’re angry about it.

      5. pancakes*

        +1. What is going on in this workplace that this is anyone’s top concern, let alone many people’s top concern?

        1. JustaTech*

          In my experience, in some environments, during times of high stress people will fixate on deeply, deeply petty “rule violations”. Nothing genuinely serious (health and safety, laws or money related), but stupid things like Arial vs Times New Roman, or the placement of trash vs recycling bins, or sock height.

          It’s not logical, it’s not useful, but it can be a sign of people who are under a lot of stress and don’t feel like they have any control over their work conditions.

      6. Confused*

        Same. Unless I was directly blamed or had my work significantly affected by the way someone else dresses, I can’t imagine caring even a tiny bit, whether their clothes were appropriate or not.

        I wonder what industry this is. It seems really weird and kind of busy body to be bothered by this. There are so many actual problems to complain about.

    6. Escaped a Work Cult*

      The first thing that comes to my mind is talk to the HR Director about the optics of you as a male manager policing the dress code in a majority women company. Like, not to go into fear mongering, but I’m really concerned about the look! I think by framing it that way it could help with the pushback.

      My other suggestion is to have a quick team meeting and collectively address it. Lean into phrases that indicate that you know it’s unpopular but unless the change happens, nobody gets to wear it and that’s the worst outcome.

      The whole thing stinks and I wish I had a better thought on it.

      1. Bostonian*

        I agree with this approach. Just give people as a group the straightforward facts, expectations, and consequences. No need for singling people out or looking at anyone’s butts.

      2. JustaTech*

        One year my all-girl’s high school decided that they would crack down on uniform violations by giving all the teachers rulers to measure how high above the knee our skirts were.

        This lasted about two weeks before several of the men teachers said that they were *not* going to be touching the students to measure their skirts.
        (The students complained vigorously, as expected, mostly because even with rulers it was possible for a teacher to measure a skirt of a girl they didn’t like to be “too short” by changing where they defined “knee”. It was very stupid.)

        1. MacGillicuddy*

          A friend who went to catholic school said they had a “knee length rule”. You had to kneel on the floor, and if your skirt didn’t touch the floor it was too short.

        2. CatMintCat*

          They did this at my all girls’ high school in the 70s. We had to kneel on the ground and our hems were measured from the ground.

          We had almost no male teachers and the couple that were there were never involved in the measuring.

          Afterwards, we hitched our skirts back up under our belts and went on our way.

        3. LifeBeforeCorona*

          When thongs first became popular at a local girls school a few girls were deliberately flashing men. The school decreed that shorts had to worn under the skirts. It was mainly 13-15-year-old girls testing out their newly discovered sexuality. But the shorts rule was easier than teaching girls about their power and vulnerability.

      3. Sleeping Late Every Day*

        I’d also worry about an outright ban because some religious/ethnic dress includes a modest, knee-length (or longer) garment worn over opaque tights or leggings. This could get messy, as most bans do.

    7. londonedit*

      I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect people to cover their bottoms if they’re going to be wearing leggings (but then I’m firmly in the ‘leggings are not trousers’ camp). I suppose the problem is that every time this subject has come up here in the past, it’s led to a big debate about the sort of leggings that do and don’t cross the line into ‘you’re going to need to wear a long top over these’, and people seem to have wildly differing views. And there’s certainly a difference between the sort of ‘squat-proof’ leggings I’d wear for running, or those ‘jeggings’ trousers, and the sort of thin ‘thermal’ leggings that have the look of really thick tights. So that’s where you’ve got to make a decision about whether you’re going to institute a blanket ban on anything that isn’t an actual trouser – and I wouldn’t blame you if you did, because otherwise it is a minefield. As an employee, I wouldn’t have a problem with you giving a month’s notice – either everyone starts covering their backside if they’re wearing anything that could be considered a legging, or if we’re still getting complaints in a month’s time, we ban all leggings altogether and everyone has to start wearing actual trousers.

    8. Reba*

      I mean, I think “sending home to change” feels like middle school, that’s my first reaction. I totally get your discomfort and I congratulate you for feeling uncomfortable, in a way. Ha. I just mean I’m glad you feel it’s not really right to inspect where your employees’ tops fall in relation to their thighs. Do you think this is a situation where sending an email to your reports, or addressing them when you’re in a meeting together, just reiterating the dress code and that it is going to be enforced more strictly would be apt?

      Also “probably the number one complaint was the way some workers dress” ????

    9. Cat Tree*

      Personally, I would just let the employees wear what they want. But that’s not an option for you because it’s coming from HR. They’re all adults, and part of being an adult means not ogling a coworker’s butt because she’s wearing tight clothing.

      Banning tights under a dress is ridiculous though. Does that mean women just can’t wear dresses at all during cold weather?

      1. Dust Bunny*

        Conversely: Being an adult means being willing to not wear something that shows your coworkers your underwear/anatomy. Asking wearers of leggings to cover their rears is really not that big an imposition.

        1. pancakes*

          Nope, not every adult agrees that it’s shameful to have a visible butt or be known to be wearing underwear.

          1. RagingADHD*

            Who said anything about shameful? What’s appropriate to wear on a social occasion isn’t always appropriate at work. Shamefulness has nothing to do with it.

            1. Hei Hei, the Chicken from Moana*

              Because that’s the implication here. If Cindy Crawford were in an office wearing leggings and top that didn’t cover her bottom, would people be complaining? No. My fatphobia alarm bells are ringing.

              1. TechWorker*

                Tights leggings would not fly in my also very casual office, and yes this applies equally to skinny people. There are lots of things that come from fatphobia, I do not think ‘don’t wear leggings as trousers’ is always one of them.

                1. pancakes*

                  I don’t have a problem with a workplace rule prohibiting leggings. I don’t think it’s an uncommon rule, either. What I have a problem with is people sniping about their coworkers’ clothes instead of making a clear rule (which seems to be happening in this workplace), and people making huffy comments about women’s clothes not being “adult,” etc. (which is happening in several of these comments).

              2. RagingADHD*

                That may be your inference but it’s not at all what’s being implied. If you hear “shame”, you brought it with you.

                Of course grownups know that everyone has a butt (and a navel, and nipples, and pubic hair). The whole point of a dress code is that it’s supposed to apply equally to everyone, and it draws some kind of lines about which of those universal pieces of human anatomy are visible at work.

              3. Blazer205*

                Yes! This is what I came to say. It’s far too subjective and personal of a subject imo. If someone is on the heavy side, they may find anyone slimmer to be inappropriate when dressing in figure flattering or trendy clothing. Conversely if someone has “fat-phobia” they may find larger people dressing in the same way as inappropriate. Personally, I’ve worked in my offices that slack on the definition of business casual attire for heavier body types yet hold others to a different standard. For example, if may be acceptable for someone who’s considered obese to wear sweat/lounge type pants because presumably it’s harder to find dress slacks in their size. Point I’m trying to make is dress codes are antiquated, sexist, and borderline discriminatory and should be a non issue. Make the company provide uniforms if it’s that big of an issue .

          2. ilikecoffee*

            Some leggings show off distinct genital outlines. I really don’t want to see that at work. But I don’t think leggings deserve to be singled out, either. You often can see male anatomy outlines through pants with softer textures, too. I wish people would cover up but I find it deeply awkward that it’s being policed.

            1. pancakes*

              Pants that don’t fit well do that, too. I can certainly understand why either might make someone uncomfortable, but making a point of saying so seems like something only a busybody would want to do.

        2. Cat Tree*

          Meh, why not just make a rule about no visible underwear? I’m certain the vast majority of these complaints are about opaque leggings, not the sheer ones. And if you have a coworker who inadvertently wears something that is more see-through than she realizes, maybe politely inform her instead of having a little tantrum with HR?

      2. Pickled Limes*

        My office is cold all year long, so if leggings and tights were banned altogether, I’d never be able to wear a dress or skirt. The leggings are there to keep me warm.

        I’ve always hated the “these three people do it wrong so now nobody can have it” method of management, so I’m side eyeing OP’s boss and HR really hard here. Leggings and tights aren’t athletic wear, they’re undergarments. They shouldn’t be governed by the athletic wear portion of the dress code, they should be covered by the undergarment portion, which should indicate that undergarments designed to be partially visible, like leggings or camisoles, should be covered in certain areas at all times.

        And OP, I agree with the people who have suggested asking a female colleague or HR rep to talk to the dress code violators on this. Having a male boss indicate that he’s noticed my butt in the workplace would make me feel so self conscious and awful.

    10. Dark Macadamia*

      This sounds like a problem of definitions! To me, tights are definitely not athletic wear OR pants – I find it hard to believe anyone is showing up in literal tights with a shirt because that’s just… not how tights work, lol. Leggings CAN be athletic depending on the material but you can
      usually tell just by looking at them. Some are thick enough to be completely appropriate as pants (jeggings, leather, thicker fabrics) and some are more like tights and should have a tunic/dress over them.

      I’m guessing if there IS a dress code problem it could be that your pro-leggings employees are wearing cheaper, thinner leggings that are “technically” pants but should be treated like tights, or they’re wearing ones from athletic material. That could be managed by clarifying that pants must be a thick, professional fabric and not skin-tight/stretchy. Have someone familiar with women’s leggings and tights show some examples.

      The other explanation is just that the anti-leggings folks are overreacting to reasonable clothing choices because they think anything tight-fitting is inappropriate. The fact that this is the biggest complaint anyone has about your workplace but you haven’t noticed any outrageous clothing choices makes me think this is the more likely issue.

      1. TWW*

        As someone who usually wears men’s clothes, but sometimes wears women’s trousers and jeans, I’m not 100% sure where the line between leggings and trousers actually lies. I have garments that look like trousers, but are made of stretchy fabric and are no less form-fitting than yoga pants. (No, they aren’t “jeggings”–they don’t have printed-on pockets.) Would those be allowed?

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          (No, they aren’t “jeggings”–they don’t have printed-on pockets.)

          That’s not the definition of jeggings. Jeggings are leggings that look like denim.

          I don’t think there *is* a bright line between leggings and trousers, but being stretchy definitely doesn’t make your trousers into leggings. All of my trousers are stretchy, even though they have buttons, zippers, belt loops, etc.

          1. PeteyKat*

            I think leggings are a “style” of “trousers”, trousers being defined as an outer garments covering the body from waist to the ankle, with a separate part for each leg. Like, bell bottoms, culottes, etc. are styles of trousers.

        2. Dark Macadamia*

          Yeah, it can be a tough call but the fact that they’re equating leggings and tights makes me think they actually just don’t know what they’re talking about (I wore capris to a job where I didn’t realize capris were against dress code and never got called out – I’m pretty sure they thought capris were shorts so my mid-calf pants didn’t read as a problem). It seems excessive to go to a blanket ban rather than just enforcing the tunic/dress rule!

          I would hate to be the pants police. I think if yours look like trousers despite being stretchy they would be fine unless you’re getting obvious underwear lines or awkwardly clingy areas. I have some that are opaque and thicker than tights but still form-fitting enough that I wouldn’t wear them as pants.

        3. Qwerty*

          The line is completely blurred. It is more of a spectrum.

          Really it comes down to how revealing the fit is. Too many people get caught up in whether it “technically” is trousers, yoga pants, leggings, etc. The reality is, how tight are they and how much do they reveal what is under the fabric? If you were to cover up the waist/pocket area, do they read as being in the yoga-pant family from the thigh down? If you are wearing a normal shirt with it, how much can other people tell of your undergarments (be pessimistic in this one!) I’m not just referring to thin fabric that lets you see color, but also outlines of what is underneath.

          For your example, since you say it is at the same level of form fitting as yoga pants, then they are basically yoga pants / leggings.

          Sometimes with super stretchy trousers that you want to wear as trousers, consider going up a size. I love the Old Navy Pixie pants, but if I get my proper size they become form fitting like leggings. If I go up one size, they look like slacks because the fabric doesn’t conform to my body.

        4. pants are overrated*

          Honestly, women’s pants can be a minefield because of the cheap stretchy material! I err on the side of caution with tight/stretchy pants (even if they have pockets/zipper/belt loops… the hallmarks of pants) but that’s my personal preference. I can see it being hard to find the line, especially for younger women who are more used to wearing leggings and such. On the flip side, older generations can have some pretty firm ideas about pant categories! See: when my mom tried to help me shop for my first professional wardrobe. She insisted a pair of black pants were officially jeans because of rivets on the back pockets.

          1. kiki*

            It also seems like a lot of women’s clothing that is sold is defective or involves user-intervention in a way you wouldn’t see for men’s clothing? Like sort-of-sheer shirts that aren’t intentionally sheer. Why are these sold? Who wants their shirt to be see-through in only some lightings? That doesn’t fly with men’s shirts, but it’s such a common thing in women’s clothing. And the expectation is that women will just have an assortment of nude layers on underneath, just in case. No! I want an opaque shirt! I want opaque pants and skirts!
            My boyfriend orders clothes online all the time and when he tries them on at home, all he really has to do is make sure they fit. Not too tight? Not too loose? He’s good to go. When I order clothes online, I have to do an assortment of tests to determine that there’s no wrong lighting or angle or body contortion that could cause the garment to become sheer. Since it’s springtime, I also want to bring up the issue of white pants for women– why do retailers sell white pants that are not opaque? Nobody really wants see-through white pants, do they? Then why is it nearly impossible to find and opaque pair??

            1. They Don’t Make Sunday*

              Hear, hear! I want opaque clothes too! And even if they’re going to sell something obviously sheer, they ought to be obligated to sell the nude-colored tank or whatever that you wear under it. Because underwear/baselayer departments in department stores do not stock every kind of camisole in all seasons!

    11. TWW*

      Just don’t do it. If you get called out, respond, “Oh I didn’t notice.” It’s can’t possibly be wrong to fail to pay attention to your coworkers’ backsides.

      1. RecoveringSWO*

        Yeah, this doesn’t seem like the worst approach. Plus, leggings are going out of style, so this problem may fix itself without you having to deal with the touchy subject.

        1. Kimmy Schmidt*

          So not the point, but leggings are going out of style??? This is news to me! If anything, I thought leggings were more in style now than ever before due to a year of WFH where so many people wore leisure and athletic wear.

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            Is this part of that ridiculous “millenials or gen x or whoever said skinny jeans and side parts are out of style” meme?

            1. KittyCardigans*

              It was Gen Z saying that about/to millennials, but it’s an overgeneralization on all sides at best, and shameless clickbaity nonsense at worst.

              In any case, I work at a high school and leggings are definitely not out of style with the zoomers I’m around. Most of the girls I just saw at lunch were wearing leggings and sweatshirts.

              1. TechWorker*

                Teenagers where I live are wearing mom jeans, crop tops and oversized fleeces. (I think it’s quite a good look really and probably quite comfy, but did have a chuckle to myself when I realised that from the back it read like ‘middle aged woman popping to the shops’ :))

            2. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

              Right. None of this is true (said a millennial who loves leggings – in certain situations – skinny jeans AND side parts).

          2. RecoveringSWO*

            I don’t think the change will happen instantly, but it seems to me that wide-legged pants are being pushed in women’s clothing sections. It’s crazy to think about, but I’m trying to place when leggings (+ uggs, thanks New England!) started trending and it’s been a good 12 years or so in my memory.

    12. Jules the 3rd*

      Combo of some of the other answers: I (a female) would
      1) Send a blanket email to my reports reminding people that legging tops must be covered by a garment that reaches the thighs. ‘HR has informed me that this guideline is not being followed and continuing to not follow it will drive changes to the dress code prohibiting leggings.’
      2) Ignore individual expressions of it. Your job should not require you to check out women’s butts.

      Yeah, I know blanket emails suck, but in this case, it’s what you have to work with that isn’t borderline sexual harassment.

      1. traffic_spiral*

        Also in this case a blanket email will serve to let any complainers know that their concerns are being acted on.

    13. mreasy*

      These types of dress codes stipulations tend to be enforced more rigidly for women who are very curvy or who are fat. Women’s bodies seem to offend many people for some reason, especially when they aren’t thin – I would look into who is complaining and who they’re complaining about before assuming their complaints are valid and updating the code.

      1. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

        OP isn’t the one updating the dress code – HR is. He has nothing to do with this and needs to determine whether or not it’s worth it to be the enforcer (I wouldn’t, but then again, I don’t know how his HR department will handle that and if there would be blowback for not reporting code breakers).

    14. Anne of Green Gables*

      I think there is a HUGE difference between “no tights or leggings” and “no tights or leggings as pants.” The issue isn’t the leggings, it’s that they are being substituted for pants. If there is a ban, I think HR needs to be clear on which it is.

      1. Dark Macadamia*

        +1 the simplest fix here is to reiterate that form-fitting bottoms require long tops and address it with individuals if needed. “No tights ever” is unreasonable.

      2. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

        Bingo. Tights/leggings aren’t pants and shouldn’t be worn as such in the workplace. Do whatever you want at home or the gym.

    15. Wool Princess*

      Imagine if we put the same effort we use to police women’s bodies and clothing choices into…I dunno…teaching people to mind their own business?

    16. Qwerty*

      BOLO for butts – Terrible, terrible policy. How does HR not realize this? When you push back on this policy to HR, be very clear that they are instructing male managers to look at the butts (and crotch – bodies have two sides) of female employees and that you will not participate in creating a hostile work environment.

      Legging/Tights Ban – This is really going to come down to phrasing. The blanket ban is going to go over very poorly because you’ll be telling women that if they wear a skirt or dress, they must have bare legs. Tights are hosiery, not athletic wear. It is one thing to say leggings are not pants, quite another to ban tights.

      This is a media storm waiting to happen. I can easily see the headlines about the company instructing managers to stare at women’s butts and banning wearing hose with a dress. Also, please document this for future reference in case it comes out later that HR has been giving women inappropriate and/sexist feedback – I doubt this is the only seriously misguided idea they’ve had.

      I’ve been trying to come up with phrasing to warn your team of the upcoming ban without it sounding creepy and I think at this point the message should come from HR. It’s just too weird for you to stand up and announce a reminder about the dress code and try to fumble your way through explaining how you aren’t looking at their booty. I really don’t get why HR doesn’t just have a discreet 1×1 conversation with the worst offenders, except I feel like your HR department would bungle that.

      1. Robin Ellacott*

        Yes, a boss telling staff members “I have been examining your nether regions and deem them insufficiently covered” is just best avoided.

    17. Noncompliance Officer*

      OP here:

      – I am going to meet with my staff and tell them about the new rule. I don’t have a problem with that. I don’t *think* any of my staff are the ones doing this.
      -However, I have no intention of inspecting any employees. The other male manager and I brought up the terrible optics of this and she agreed.
      -I don’t think it’s the opacity of the leggings so much of the form-fitting nature.
      -Tights vs leggings vs jeggings….the (female) managers got into a log debate about this during our meeting and honestly my eyes glazed over.

      1. Confused*

        OP, why do other employees care so much about this? I could understand if it was managers complaining that their employees were making them look bad in front of customers/clients, and if the clients had complained and it came back to the manager. Otherwise, what does someone wearing leggings have to do with anyone else? Like who is so bored at work they have to micromanage someone they don’t even supervise’s outfit choice?

        1. pancakes*

          I’m wondering this too. If there’s some weird bullying going on here, tuning it out because it’s tedious isn’t going to cut it.

        2. Qwerty*

          If it’s the form fitting nature, it’s possible there are people who are revealing way more than they think they are. I’ve worked some women whose leggings showed Everything despite being opaque. I should not know so much details about my coworker’s preferences on undergarments down to cut/style, fabric, or none at all. I saw so much about their butt and crotch situations that really is not info that I want when I’m just trying to fill out my Excel sheet (they were generally always standing in my line of vision when I was sitting at my desk, so I really couldn’t avoid this view). Some leggings provide the same amount of concealment as body paint.

          I’ve also worked with men wearing leggings and the issue with leggings as pants becomes obvious very quickly.

        3. Noncompliance Officer*

          I wish I could tell you why people care about this so much. It mainly seems to be a generational thing? We have a mix of 20-somethings and then a lot of 50+.

        4. Sue*

          At my office the older employees (I’ve been there 23 years and for most of that was a relative newbie) dressed professionally. Over the last few years, there has been a lot of turnover with retirements and the demographic is now much younger. I have heard a considerable about of grumbling about the clothing worn by some of the newer employees. I have nothing to do with it and have not engaged but I think some of this is generational about what is office wear appropriate. Not entirely, as my daughter had observations about some of her coworkers attire that she was surprised by, but I think as society has become more casual, some struggle to adjust.

        5. Kitten Caboodle*

          I only care about what I’m wearing, so this is confusing to me. I came up in business with the school of thought that you dress for the job you want not the job you have so I am very aware of my own appearance and how “I” present myself in the workplace. The end result is positive. I stand out. Many of the corporate big wigs know my name – not so much the names of the hoodies and leggings crowd, so their idea of business casual is working in my favor. No complaints here.

      2. kiki*

        I think this is the best route possible for you. It’s really strange to me that this is the number one complaint in the office– it really seems like small potatoes.

      3. Bernadette*

        This seems like a good strategy! I’m a woman and I would not feel comfortable inspecting the fit of anyone’s garments, or sending them home to change unless they showed up to work topless or something.

        These people need to get over it and learn to trust the judgment of fellow adults rather than be so invested in policing women’s bodies.

    18. Cricket*

      I would actually go back to my manager and tell them that you will enforce any policy put in place but you will not be policing people bodies (butts no less!!!) Gender aside asking people to do that lands on so many sides of wrong!
      I feel gross just thinking about looking at people’s derrieres or them looking at mine! At work??? Ewwwww.

    20. Not So NewReader*

      So when we studied work groups in college, it was noted that when groups bicker among themselves that the problem may not be with each other. Their problem might be with the bosses instead, but it is much less risky to bicker with a peer. We can see similar patterns in families, where the siblings bicker but the actual problem is the parent(s).

      What I see here is that management had a policy regarding attire and failed to enforce it after a bit. Older (longevity) employees had initially been informed, but newer employees not so much. Why does one group of people have to follow one set of rules and another group of people have a different set of rules?

      I think that the big boss and HR should band together to announce what the rules are. HR can handle questions that come up. A good thing to do, IMO, would be to clearly state, “We have had this dress code and we have not been enforcing it. But starting [one month from now] we will be following the dress code. Those with questions/suggestions can contact HR [add contact info here].”

      I also think it would be extremely wise to openly address other issues that are also mentioned in the survey. Paying particular attention to problems with toxic bosses and cohorts.

      Again, just my opinion but I think the double standard with a set of rules for longer term employees and a different set for newer employees is at the heart of the problem. I think they are angry with management more and not so much with each other.

      It’d probably be good to review and update the dress code before proceeding also. The question that should be asked is how does this policy help us do business better? And that answer should be shared with the employees.

    21. Birdie*

      It’s not clear to me if all the employees are aware that they’ve decided to crack down on this rule or if they’ve just started randomly enforcing it. If the employees have not been collectively and explicitly told that they need to follow the butt-coverage rule or risk getting leggings banned entirely, that should absolutely be step one, and it should come from HR or the big boss, not OP. If it continues to be an issue and they decide to implement a ban, I think HR should be in charge of announcing and enforcing the policy.

      But I am wondering what they have in mind when they say they want to ban leggings and tights. If they literally mean “no one can wear these items of clothing in any context,” that’s frankly absurd. If you told me I couldn’t wear leggings or lined tights under my work dresses in the winter, I would have nothing to wear since I don’t own dress pants and bare legs aren’t an option. But if they add in a stipulation allowing tights/leggings under other skirts and dresses, aren’t they just circling back to the butt coverage rule that already exists? If they want to change what people are wearing, I think the best option would be HR setting clear expectations for the rule and enforcing it consistently moving forward.

    22. Them Boots*

      For your situation, where you don’t want to come off as a creeper, I’d suggest calling a meeting with your team -preferably a regularly scheduled one- and as one of the topics, bring this up, explain what the Powers That Be are planning to do about it, take no comments and move on with the meeting. -You could state that in lieu of verbal comments in the moment, people are welcome to email you their concerns after the meeting. That way they can feel heard and you can set up a brief stock answer to reply that won’t drag on like a verbal fightfest will. AND they can self-police and you can step away from a situation where your company is trying to get you to start leering at your employees’ legs. Ugh!

    23. Artemesia*

      You might send out one last notice that tights can only be worn under dresses or tunics and that if people continue to wear them as pants without long tops, they will be dropped from acceptable business casual wear. (which is insanely stupid now that I read it). This is not a subtle thing like judging a too tight blouse; I would have the managers, men or not, send anyone home who shows up with yoga pants or tights without long tops. The people who are dressing appropriately should not be penalized for those pushing the rules.

    24. Momma Bear*

      Years ago we lost Casual Friday because it got too casual. Allowing leggings in the first place is more than a lot of companies would and people should just wear longer shirts or choose alternate pants. If they won’t, then let them face the consequences and lose the option. We had a shared office space a couple of years back and there was one woman who not only wore leggings, but wore too sheer versions and it was frankly unprofessional. Tights should NEVER be pants. Save the leggings with short tops for your own time.

      Not enforcing a dress code if people are complaining about it also hurts morale. Draw a line and stick with it. It would also help you as a male manager b/c you wouldn’t feel like you have to be the judge of someone’s attire. Let HR/upper management make that call to everyone. They have a month to shape up or wear pants. I wouldn’t cater to fashion trends.

      To add: we have a fairly casual office. Even the CEO wears polos and jeans. But there is still the expectation that you will look clean and professional. Button down shirts and slacks show up when there are client meetings. Sales crew has a “uniform” for events. You dress for the occasion. No different than anything else in life.

    25. little k*

      So I never understood the problem with leggings because I’m the sort of person who wouldn’t notice if someone isn’t wearing a bra unless I really stare.

      But today, a tall woman was walking in front of me and she was wearing salmon-colored leggings, and suddenly I understand why leggings are NOT pants.

    26. allathian*

      I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask people to cover their butts. The easiest way to do this would be to require a long top garment, no matter what you wore underneath, and the only exception to that would be slacks that actually look like slacks, not leggings masquerading as slacks.

      Banning tights or leggings altogether, even when the butt is covered, would be tougher, especially if you’re in a colder climate. Even in a hot climate, air conditioning can make people feel cold at the office. I’m in a temperate climate and it rarely gets too hot for me, but even so, in the summer at the office I keep a wrap that I wear at work and take off when I go home.

    27. H*

      This guidance from HR has the same energy as high school vice principals who stop female students in the hallway and prevent them from getting to class because their shirt has come up in the back and their leggings-covered rear end is visible, or because their shorts *might* be shorter than fingertip length. The justification for these interactions is almost always that “you’re distracting other students.” I simply cannot buy that it is worth preventing people from doing their jobs just because there’s a perception that someone else might have a problem with an employee’s clothing. As someone else said, these kinds of rules also get applied far more strictly to plus-size or fat people. The feeling of having your clothing choices monitored by someone who has power over you (whether it’s a vice principal or a manager) is a very, very uncomfortable one that I always hoped was more or less left behind after high school… I would also add that it’s challenging to find an affordable and flattering pair of women’s “work” pants that aren’t pretty tight around the rear end, at least in my size range. I know all tight-fitting pants aren’t in question here, but if people who wear leggings are being told they’re objectionable because they’re tight in the rear end, they might also be concerned that all their pants that are tight in that area are subject to monitoring and changes in dress code policy!

  3. Roxie*

    Does everyone know of a coworker who didn’t get a promotion they wanted and responded by acting poorly? All it does is show why that person shouldn’t have been promoted!

    Anecdotally, I have someone on my team (higher than me but I don’t report to him) who has been with the company for years. Last year apparently he wanted to be promoted to the director of our team, but my direct supervisor ended up getting it (because he is actually director-level material). This past year the other guy has been a pain to work with because he’s withholding information, being passive aggressive and isn’t a team player. Getting information out of him is like pulling teeth. I guess I just don’t understand that mentality.

    1. Smithy*

      I’ve certainly seen this a lot – and there are always people who are just inclined to publicly pout and express disappoint that way. However, I often think this kind of behavior happens most often with really bad management around staff development and growth.

      I’m in a sector where some people are able to receive multiple promotions and growth within one organization, but many more simply are not. It may be that the the level of experience between junior/senior staff is so great – that junior staff will just never be quite ready for promotions. And also don’t have the benefit of even seeing what midlevel growth would look like. I’ve also met manage managers who are only comfortable talking about professional development and growth within what they can offer at X job, and not discussing a range of growth paths either in other internal departments or externally.

      As such, people get fixated a very narrow range of options – either promotions to roles that don’t exist/aren’t needed, or that the few options that do open are their only hope. And then if those opportunities don’t come through, the disappointment is greater because the belief exists where that was their only hope for advancement.

      I’m certainly most sympathetic to this attitude with people newer to the workforce – and it’s never fun to have a coworker openly pouting. But I no longer think this an issue that 100% rests with the person who wasn’t promoted. Certainly a manager could be doing all of that, and someone can decide there’s only one growth path they’ll ever want. But more often, I think it’s a dynamic that is a bit more two sided.

      1. Anonym*

        This is such an interesting perspective – it’s easy to see this sort of thing as an individual problem, but I’ve also seen other outcomes from this type of structure and management, where employees are very frustrated (though not acting out). As you describe, there aren’t actual pathways for them to advance (or they’re rare), and the org/managers aren’t doing enough to realistically explore people’s career paths, which will pretty much have to involve leaving the organization for a mid-level role. The result is morale that’s lower than it should be.

        There’s a larger picture that may fuel the managers’ point of view – the workforce is changing, it’s realistic to move around to grow a career, and people WILL leave, and that’s okay. But the old school view is “never allow/encourage/even WHISPER about the possibility of leaving, and view any attrition as failure.” Realistically, if you’re honest with people about their options and support their development, they may eventually leave but you’ll have better morale, more trust, likely better performance, and definitely a better reputation as an employer. And they may come back in the future with all the experience and knowledge they gained at a competitor. ;)

        1. Smithy*

          Acting out, low morale, checking out, bad attitude, etc – I think a wide range of those sentiments come across from staff in those positions. And absolutely, it’s easy to peg this as an individual problem, it’s not being professional, etc etc etc. But I think it’s an issue where managers and employers are more involved than they’re often willing to admit.

          The workforce has not only been changing but I think it’s going to continue to do so in ways where telling a direct report or peer what you did ten or even five years ago may be a lot less applicable. Therefore, engaging a bit more proactively and honestly about growth that may both involve staff leaving in more positive and productive ways, but also being a touch more mindful with hiring.

          1. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

            I agree with this entire thread – it’s spot on accurate. I’ve only seen people act out like this in the workplace when they’ve been very clear with management that they want to progress, but management ignores them. No one wants to feel basically dismissed.

        2. Alternative Person*

          There’s definitely some frustration from some of my co-workers because the promotion ladder is all but stalled for a long list of understandable and/or frustrating reasons. And yeah, there’s a good argument that some of those people need to do some serious work before they become managers, but there’s also a lot of good people who not only deserve the chance to move up, but really need that first step or two on the promotion ladder for career reasons.

          But the big thing managers seem to forget is the economic reality. As much as my colleagues and I want to progress our careers up the ladder because of the kind of work we’ll be able to do, we also need those promotions in order to be able to afford things like buying our own houses, a realistic level of savings/pension contributions, a family and all sorts of long term things.

    2. Cat Tree*

      Not exactly the same, but I had a coworker who was frustrated about not getting in the top bracket for a performance review. The main reason was because he wasn’t completing his routine trainings on time. Sure, those trainings are tedious, barely relevant, and nobody enjoys them. But it’s half an hour a week, the expectation is made super duper clear, and everyone up to the director manages to get them done on time.

      The way that resolved is that he found another job in a different department. The training expectation is still the same, so he’s presumably having the same issue, but it’s not our problem anymore.

      I have no practical advice except to hope your difficult coworker leaves. He’s unlikely to meet his goal of a promotion with this behavior.

    3. Kiitemso*

      Yep, we have one such case at my company. I came into the company in 2018 and knew this guy was a grump, asked some people and found out this was why.

      But plot twist, he got promoted in 2020 and it’s gone terribly. They are now looking to demote him.. Or fire him. I’m not even in his department anymore, not sure why I know this. Gossip gets around I guess.

    4. LKW*

      If I had to guess it’s a matter of unrealistic expectations and general immaturity (which can be displayed by people of all ages). I suspect that the people who do this also over inflate their experience and competency. They may not have received meaningful feedback OR they have selective hearing when getting that feedback. As a result, since they believe themselves to be obviously competent, everyone else must be a moron or someone else made a deal/put the fix in and that’s why they weren’t selected for the promotion.
      So while it’s completely counterproductive, this is where the immature side takes over, and decides that “if they don’t realize how awesome I am, then I’ll make their lives harder.” A choice that absolutely does not lead to their desired outcomes but some people just can’t see past their own disappointment.

    5. TWW*

      Is he being purposefully difficult or did he lose his mojo?

      If the latter, I can sympathize with him. After getting your hopes up about a promotion and being disappointed, I think a lot of people would have trouble keeping their head in the game.

    6. AppleStan*

      Oh….yeah…..

      A co-worker, John, and I went up for an internal promotion to manage our unit. It was a weird scenario, when our boss left, grandboss met with the 6 top senior members of the team to handle certain aspects of boss’ job because grandboss didn’t have a clue (was upfront about it at least). In that meeting, John handed grand-boss his application materials for the job (the rest of us didn’t even see it advertised). We left the meeting immediately after, and as grand-boss was walking with me to the coffee machine, I told grand-boss I thought John would be great at the job.

      Most of these senior members (including me) talked openly with each other about putting in for boss’ job (the ones who didn’t blatantly stated they were not interested). I waffled back and forth on it, because we recently got raises that meant my salary would only be about $3K less than boss’ salary…why would I want to do that extra work for very little extra pay? In the end, only three senior members (John, Jane, and I) put in for it, Jane withdrew her candidacy during the interview process, and I ended up getting the job.

      Cue an 11:00 pm text rant THAT NIGHT that started with “I’m soooooooooo pissed with you” and just kinda got worse from there. As John and I had been good acquaintances outside of work (not friends, but definitely did things together) and I had never been a manager/supervisor before, I actually responded and tried to reason with John, instead of just ignoring everything altogether (I mean, I was now this person’s boss, so the entire thing was extremely inappropriate — but I hadn’t discovered AskAManager yet, so I didn’t know how to prepare to supervise friends).

      The conversation went badly, but I was too locked into making John feel better instead of realizing how wildly inappropriate this entire line of conversation was and how I should have just ignored it completely. John had been offered a similar position but heading a different unit, which he turned down, and I suggested he reconsider. Long story short, what was a $3K salary jump for me was a $13K jump for John, and he took the new job. Unfortunately, the same things that would have made John a bad manager for our unit made John a bad manager for the other unit, and John was fired 9 months later.

      And I learned a TON of management lessons from this experience – not the least of which was (a) don’t entertain crap in the interest of making someone feel better and (b) I didn’t know *jack* at the time about what would make someone a good manager, because I truly thought John would be excellent at the job and he was…not.

    7. LadyByTheLake*

      Yes, I was once hired from outside to be a manager. Unfortunately, one of my reports thought that the job was hers (in fairness to her, the previous grandboss might have given her that impression). In any event, while she was frostily polite to me, she made it clear with every fibre of her being that she did not feel like she owed me anything (trying to get information out of her was like pulling teeth). She continued to do an excellent job with her work, but when in her first review I noted that she needed to share more with me regarding what she was doing and generally needed to be more of a team player in assisting her colleagues (with specific examples), she went running to her grandboss (my boss) to complain that I was being wildly unfair and that I shouldn’t be the manager and I was incompetent if I thought that she was anything other than perfect. This despite the fact that she got the highest marks of anyone on my team (although not perfect) and the highest raise and bonus! Grandboss looked right at her and said, “Thank you for confirming that I made the right decision when I didn’t promote you.”

      3. AppleStan*

        That is *EXTREMELY* satisfying to read!

        Did her attitude get worse or get better after that statement from Grandboss?

        1. LadyByTheLake*

          It stayed the same, in fact, she continued to complain about me to Grandboss even though the complaints went nowhere. She finally moved to another section (different manager). I note that although it is now 12 years later and there has been a lot of turnover and upward movement, she is still in the same (non-manager) level. There’s a reason for that.

    8. DG*

      Yes, I’ve seen it happen twice, including once with someone I directly managed. He was passed over for a promotion that ended up going to a much more skilled and qualified person. He turned completely hostile, almost (but not *quite*) bordering on abusive. I could share some really unbelievable details about some of his actions and accusations, but they are so absurd that I would be easily identifiable to my former coworkers.

      From the day he become hostile I told myself that if I ever felt even an inkling of those feelings toward a job I would quit immediately, regardless of other factors in my life, even if it met selling all of my possessions and living on friends’ couches until I got back on my feet. That would still be preferable to being completely consumed with hate 24/7 and burning every bridge in my professional life in such a humiliating fashion.

    9. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I worked with one like this. The ‘promotion’ he went for was a more senior, higher paid job in a completely separate department (rather than e.g. becoming a supervisor of someone with his previous position), it came down to a decision between him and another internal candidate and he lost out. He put this down to the fact that he’d been at the company only a few months compared to the other person’s several years, although I don’t think that was the main reason.

      After this rejection he was convinced that he was “worth more” so didn’t really bother applying himself in his current job, was constantly visiting our manager’s and HR’s offices complaining that the salary for this job wasn’t enough and it would serve them right if he left (!) etc.

    10. Lizy*

      Well this is timely. Today, my coworker started off a group text response – with our boss – saying “I’m not really that concerned with upper management and here’s why…” aaaaaannnndddd that’s why you didn’t get the job.

    11. Chaordic One*

      Back at “Dysfunctional Teapots, Ltd,” we had several people who were passed over. They tended to pout and act up a bit, but generally speaking they continued to churn out the work. They usually left for greener pastures and then, after they did, their replacement would flounder and eventually we’d have to hire 2 or 3 people to do the work of the disgruntled former employee who left.

      1. allathian*

        Ha. You can’t manage people’s feelings, and in this case, I think that leaving was definitely justified if they felt they were passed over.

  4. Now In the Job*

    Does anyone wear orthodontia at the office during pandemic times? I’m not sure whether to let my boss/HR know that I’ll be taking my mask off to brush and floss throughout the day.

    1. Ya Girl*

      Do you have private restrooms? I just take mine off in the single stall restroom and brush after eating.

      1. Now In the Job*

        No private restrooms. They’re all 3-stalls with a tiny vestibule common area that has the 3 sinks.

        1. TWW*

          Would it be possible/permissible to occasionally lock the door so you had the whole place to yourself for a few minutes?

    2. Reba*

      I mean, you’ll be doing that in the bathroom, no? I don’t think it’s an issue that you need to preemptively alert HR to.

      1. Now In the Job*

        My concern is the intense “pre-return training” we had made it abundantly clear that the only place you are permitted to remove your mask is if you’re in a private office at your desk with your door closed, or socially distanced in the cafeteria and only then while eating. I’m worried about being called out/reported up the chain for being in the public bathroom arguably actively producing more aerosols for what someone might think is an unnecessary thing to do during a pandemic.

        1. Pickled Limes*

          Can your dentist/orthodontist write a letter to your workplace requesting an accommodation?

        2. JustaTech*

          At my work we have the same rule, but several women on my floor brush their teeth at work, so they just put a packet of cleaning wipes in to wipe down the sink when you’re done. But we also have very few people on site so it’s more likely than not that no one would even come in the bathroom while you’re brushing.

        3. I'm just here for the cats*

          I think it would be OK , especially if you had cleaning supplies so you could clean the sink area before/after. And if there were others in the bathroom ask if it was alright, or wait until they were done.

      2. Julia*

        Since we know the virus can spread through aerosols, I’d be extra cautious if the bathroom isn’t well-ventilated, though. And how would someone who, for example, has to go pee now feel about running into an unmasked co-worker in the bathroom?

        1. MsClaw*

          I would hope that most coworkers would realize Now is performing a normal hygiene function and either ignore it and go about their business or pop back into the hallway to politely wait three minutes for Now to come out or use the restroom on a different floor if they are uncomfortable being in the bathroom while Now is brushing.

        2. Reba*

          Oh, I was imagining a single bathroom (based on nothing)! Good point about it being a shared space that all employees need at some point.

    3. straight teeth*

      I wear braces… and I have to brush floss during the day. I’m not really sure of why your boss needs to know? surely you’d be brushing/flossing in the bathroom, no? Also, how much will you be doing it? Getting braces certainly taught me (former grazer) to eat three meals a day, and stick to that. It’s a pain to brush/floss through braces everytime you snack.

    4. SomebodyElse*

      If you are allowed to take your mask off to eat and drink, then you’ll be fine to do it to brush and floss. You are overthinking this :)

      1. pretzelgirl*

        I agree, you will be taking it off for a few minutes tops. I honestly would’nt think twice about it, even now.

    5. introverted af*

      I’m in a similar boat, and one thing I’ve done is go to the less used bathroom in my building and brush in the toilet stall. I can imagine some people would be grossed out by that, but it works for me.

  5. Amontillado*

    How do others create vacation request policies that balance the needs of planners vs. others?

    I had a discussion with my boss last week (I am also a manager) about aligning on how we make decisions to grant time off. As part of that conversation, I mentioned that some people always put in for time around xmas/Thanksgiving (we get the actual holidays off) at the very beginning of the year, which could make it harder for other people to take time off around then.

    And then… he literally said that everyone else needs to be better about planning their time off in advance because people who have kids do plan in advance, and it’s not fair to them to ask them to put in for that time later.

    I just don’t agree. There should be a system that works for everyone. So, give it to me: what rules/guidelines around time off have worked well in your experience? (How many people can be off at once, how far in advance people can ask off, special considerations around holidays, etc.)

    1. Procrastinating at work*

      I think a big part of this is making sure the same employees don’t get all of the big holidays off. So you can’t take Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year off at the start of the year. If those holidays are still open as you get close to that date then that person who has the other holidays can take it. But a lot of people can’t plan a year in advance and it isn’t a fair policy to give the best time off to people with kids

      1. Pickled Limes*

        I had a direct report at a previous job who would request time off before or after EVERY holiday closure. President’s Day, Memorial Day, all of them. I ended up telling him that since we get 10 paid holidays each year, he was allowed to choose no more than five that he wanted to extend with his vacation time, because other people should have the chance to extend some holidays as well.

        Also: I’m a planner, and if it were up to me I’d already know the dates I need to take off for the winter holidays. But my extended family are very much not planners. Most years, by the time I know when my relatives are free to celebrate the holidays, it’s too late for me to get those dates off because of the people who requested them months ago. That’s not my fault, but it means I’ve missed a lot of quality time with my family over the years while my coworkers had long holiday visits. It’s pretty hard not to be resentful of that sometimes.

    2. JustTellMe*

      At past workplaces I had been at, I don’t think it was a rule but many people seemed to operate by it – if you request extra time off around Thanksgiving, you don’t request extra time off around December holidays, and vice versa. And then the following year you might do the opposite where you request more time off for December holidays and not Thanksgiving. This lets everyone have at least one big winter holiday with their family and changes it up year to year so it kind of balances out. But in the end I’m up for as many people taking off as possible – how many people do you TRULY need to operate during those days? Is it more for appearances or do they actually serve a critical function? Maybe you don’t need as many people as you think.

      1. a thought*

        Yes, this! I think in many, many offices it would be okay for almost everyone to take the same days off. In my line of work, it’s actually desirable – if 1/2 the people are there but the other half aren’t, we can’t accomplish much so we might as well all be gone at the same time.

        Obviously that’s not true of some places! But I think really figuring out the minimum number of people needed and then also closing for a decent stretch (e.g., close Thanksgiving and the day after, close for Christmas Eve and Christmas) if possible both help a lot.

        1. Cj*

          I’ve worked at three CPA firms over the last 12 years, and they all close the day after Thanksgiving. Everybody wants one last long weekend before tax season, and there really aren’t any client emergencies that come up without a tax deadline looming, so they just close rather than trying to decide who gets to take the day off.

      2. Smithy*

        I think this is a really important piece. There’s both the factor of how many people you really need – but also if it might be possible to utilize more of an “on call” method? This certainly depends on the nature of the work, but for a holiday like Thanksgiving – might having staff being remote and “on call” work for the Wednesday and Friday?

        While there’s the larger benefit of being totally unplugged, for others – being able to work remotely/be on call from where their family can actually offer a lot of flexibility.

      3. 3DogNight*

        For our company, if you had the holiday off last year, you need to allow others to request it this year. If there is availability (coverage) and you want it, you can still take it, just has to be offered to those who worked last year first. That works very well here.

    3. DistantAudacity*

      Well, do you need to have a “first come, first serve” policy?

      Why not have a deadline X amount of time ahead of major holiday periods where everyone puts their request in, and then you balance it out (based on whatever rules you deem fair – who has recently had all of their requests granted, did they get another major holiday same year, etc).

      For context, in my non-US situation, the 3 weeks summer holidays are managed like this: By april 1st you have to put your request in. By May 1st, everyone gets their schedule back. Our rules say that everyone is entitled to 3 weeks continous vacation between mid-June and mid-August, but the employer can decide when (it can of course also be granted outside of this period!). This ensures that coverage is managed, or if there is a period where everyone is out, or whatever is the business need.

      1. BottleBlonde*

        Often the motivation for requesting specific days off early in the year is to make travel arrangements though. I always request off for the holidays near the beginning of the year so I can buy plane tickets to travel and visit family; it’s the only way I’d be able to afford traveling home every year. So if the deadline wasn’t far enough out from the date in question, that could have big financial implications for some.

    4. Healthcare Worker*

      When I was a manager I had to staff 365 days a year. I always scheduled as many per diem staff to work as possible. Then twice a year, about 3 months before the season, I had employees submit time off requests for the holidays. The first was for Thanksgiving/Christmas/New Year’s and the second for Memorial Day/July 4 and Labor Day. Employees ranked their requests for time off in order of importance to them. I then approved requests based on: seniority and days off in prior years. So you knew if you had Christmas off last year, you would probably work it this year. Staff would discuss with each other how to make it work, which was very helpful. Staff and I found the system fair and didn’t penalize individuals who didn’t know their plans in January. Good luck!

    5. Ashley*

      I think the number one thing is to be clear about what coverage is needed. And is this an actual issue or a perceived issue? The current system could mean new employees never get the time off which can suck but it happens with no seniority. The other thing you want to watch is a policy across the company that doesn’t make sense for all departments because of coverage needs. My department is dead at the holidays, but accounting is slammed.
      Personally I have to plan a year out because of travel arrangements. Part of the family lives in a tourist trap and you have to book your hotel a year out to guarantee a room. I need to know early if I can or can’t travel so don’t punish the planners in the process of trying to be fair.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Absolutely agree be clear about what coverage is needed. I worked in one retail job that really did great with this. They went as far as creating a schedule and everyone filled in which shifts they were willing to cover.

        Going one step further, because I volunteered to work a double on Christmas my boss took me off of other holidays. (This worked out well on my end.)

        This is a reverse approach because we tend to say “who wants time off?” and that assumes everyone will work. Why not assume no one wants to work instead and ask who wants to volunteer- “we need x people for each of these days.”

        In my setting an odd thing happened, there was enough coverage. It kind of proved to me that all the haggling was preventable if the problem was handled well.

        1. Midwest writer*

          I was at mid-sized daily newspaper years ago that used the volunteer first approach. One editor sent out an email and asked every to rank the top three holidays they wanted to work and the top three they absolutely did not. And he was clear: you had to volunteer for at least one summer holiday and you couldn’t have all three of Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year’s off. Then he sat down and wrote out a schedule. In January. It provided coverage for the actual holidays and let people know which holidays they’d have available to ask for extra time around. It seemed to work well.

          1. Clisby*

            I used to work at newspapers and it was similar to this. We also had the rule that if someone had to work Christmas or Thanksgiving one year, they absolutely didn’t have to work it the next year. (Maybe New Year was like this? I’ve never cared about New Year, so can’t remember.) I used to volunteer to work on Christmas in exchange for getting Christmas Eve off, which worked a lot better for me, and almost always meant the bonus that I didn’t have to work Thanksgiving. We didn’t go by seniority, or who had kids, or whatnot. If it wasn’t your turn to work the holiday this year, it would be your turn next year.

    6. Emma2*

      I worked in an office that had announced timelines for major holiday requests (eg all Christmas holiday requests submitted by 18 September will be considered together and approvals shared by 1 October). This worked reasonably well and holiday allocations from the prior year were taken into account (ie the same people would not be rejected two years in a row).
      The one issue was we had a lot of international staff who wanted to fly home and ideally you would book Christmas flights in August/September due to pricing. I think dealing with the requests one month earlier might have provided a better balance between recognising not everyone can plan their holidays a year in advance (often driven by different life circumstances) and giving people enough time to make arrangements given the number of people we had who needed to book flights.

    7. Elliot*

      Copying an email I sent to my old boss when we redid our policy!

      “I don’t know if it’s too late for suggestions, but my husband’s job does holiday PTO in a few ways –

      First, they have every employee “rank” the major holidays in terms of importance for time off, and turn this in to a coordinator – They do Thanksgiving, New Years Eve, and Christmas. This way, one employee can not take off a ton of time for Thanksgiving AND Christmas, just because they requested early.

      Then they try to give employees their top picks, but if there are too many who want say, Christmas Week off they do it based on 1) First come, first serve of requests and 2) seniority.”

      When my own company implemented this, we ended up making the holiday ranking due on a specific day – mid-March for summer holidays, and September for winter holidays. Then employees would get an email a week later with which holidays they were granted. If there was extra time off for a holiday, we’d do first come first serve at that point.

    8. SarahKay*

      We’re a UK-based company and because of the nature of our work we have to have two thirds cover at Christmas and New Year (and the three days in between) so the managers track who had to work those holidays in previous years. People can request holiday at any point, but requests for the Xmas/New Year period only get approved in September, and priority is given to those who worked the holiday the last two years.

    9. Bloopmaster*

      It sounds like the underlying problem to the organization is one of coverage (rather than planning vs. not planning). And that would only matter when coverage is an absolute necessity–otherwise, just let people take off when they want. So definitely think about whether your office truly needs to be open on say, Boxing Day. Limits around holiday PTO (no more than X consecutive days, can’t take days both before and after the holiday, etc.) are one way. But would it be possible to actively incentivize some employees to work those weeks? Like give an extra day of PTO or some other benefit to employees who volunteer to work the week of Thanksgiving or the week after Christmas? Maybe that would create less of a rush for holiday PTO and also maintain a minimally acceptable level of coverage during that time?

      1. Midwest writer*

        I worked a place that categorized all holidays as simple time off with pay days, so if you worked a holiday, you got a full 8 hours to use whenever you wanted during your vacation calendar year. It made working on holidays much nicer, knowing you were banking vacation hours for later. We were a small department and needed coverage on all holidays, so we did end up working a lot of holiday shifts, with all those sweet vacation days to use whenever we wanted.

    10. BRR*

      First it’s to figure out what coverage is needed. From my own experience, it’s been to divide Thanksgiving and Xmas. So if you want off it would have to be one or the other. Other than that, you have to hit a middle ground with planners and others. Many many many people don’t finalize plans at the start of the year like who is hosting. On the flip side, you can’t wait and figure it out if one person won’t know until early November. I think it’s fair in mid to late September (early October at the latest) to ask people to start figuring out their plans.

    11. Not playing your game anymore*

      We are an academic library, and are closed for major holidays. Christmas, Thanksgiving etc., but open the week of Christmas, etc. Open for lesser holidays like Labor Day, but staff get a comp day if they have to work. We have a small staff of 10 and had a problem, years ago, of the same people stretching all the holidays, while others NEVER got time off for coverage reasons. So, we instituted a policy of
      1. You can request time off around any major holiday but
      A. only one major holiday can be a “firm” request, others are standby, i.e. wait and see if anyone else wants it.
      B. if you had one of the biggies last year, you can’t make a “firm” request for the same holiday this year. So yeah you can pin down Christmas, Thanksgiving, New Years, 4th of July etc. but only one of them and if you had Christmas last year you’ll need to take New Years or Thanksgiving this year.
      We let up to 1/2 of the staff take any given holiday, so if only 3 people have asked for time off at Christmas, and you had it last year, or if you have New Years, etc., you can add it standby this year. But if 5 people who didn’t get Christmas last year have all requested it, you’re out of luck. (We’ll do a “last call” a few weeks before the holiday if we have people on “standby”)
      2. Everyone gets scheduled to work a couple of the lessor holidays. If you were scheduled to work Presidents Day, and want it off, trade with someone who is scheduled for MLK day. etc.,

      Everyone is in the rotation from the director to the newest clerk.

    12. Marzipan*

      I think to some extent the kids part is a red herring. I absolutely agree that it’s not fair or reasonable to have a policy (implicit or explicit) that people with kids should get first dibs on time off at the expense of those without kids, but – and I say this as someone who really doesn’t naturally plan their holiday time in advance – it’s also not reasonable to make everyone wait until close to the date before knowing whether or not they’ll be able to have time off. Many people do need to plan what they’re doing in advance in order to liaise with friends and family, book travel at affordable prices, sort out accommodation etc. People with kids are possibly more likely to fall into that category, but I’d encourage you to look at it more as ‘how can we accommodate some people’s need to plan and other people’s preference for being more spontaneous, in reasonable balance?’

      I’m not a fan of just making it first come first served for everything; that does tend to end with a few people snaffling everything good. You could possibly allow people to book one prime period of time off initially, and only let them have a second if others don’t want it. But at some point you do have to warn the less schedule-oriented people (amongst whom I absolutely count myself) that if they don’t book it, someone else will. It’s also worth discussing with staff what their priorities tend to be – some people may have very different preferences and requirements around what matters to them in terms of time they’d like off.

      1. Littorally*

        Agreed.

        I don’t have kids, but I’m a early planner because I have family in wildly different parts of the country. If I don’t buy my plane tickets at least a few months out, I will be absolutely hosed on prices.

        Because of this, I have very little patience with employers who want to wait til the last minute to approve vacation. I’m not paying $500 extra on my plane fare because Jane wanted to hem and haw until December 12th about whether she’s taking off the week of Christmas or not.

      2. Sparrow*

        I agree with you. And this was kind of funny to me because I have 3 siblings with kids and they NEVER plan ahead for the holidays. I live in another region of the country and have to fly in – if I waited until they knew what they were doing, I’d be buying a ticket no earlier than Dec. 15. Obviously I can’t wait that long, so they end up planning around me (the one sibling without kids) instead of the other way around.

      3. LifeBeforeCorona*

        An old workplace policy was you either worked Christmas or New Years’ but not both. A co-worker always worked Christmas because he had no family. Finally, he got married and had a kid and put in for the time off and naturally, it was granted. Another parent with late teen kids tried to bully him into taking the shifts because she maintained his kid was too young to remember Christmas anyway. And that’s why the policy became very strictly enforced.

    13. SomebodyElse*

      Here’s how I do it on my team.

      Normal non-holidays – Everyone just schedules their vacation and works it out amongst themselves if too many people are already out. I have a no more than 2 out at any time rule, if a 3rd needs the day off then they need to plan with the person left behind to make sure the impact isn’t too much and the 4th is ok with the additional workload (Great team that works together, this has never been an issue).

      Holidays- Everyone can put their request in but I won’t approve anything until ~1 month prior to the holiday (I would make exceptions to this if things like airfare or travel arrangements come into play).
      I’ll plot out the schedule based on requests and see where the coverage holes are. Then we sit down and talk about it like the adults we are.
      -I relax my no more than 2 out rule
      -Most of the time teammates are flexible “I really need that Tuesday off, but Wednesday I don’t really have plans” “Oh, I really need the Wednesday, but the Tuesday I can totally cover”
      -If we’re really in a crunch, I’ll offer additional flexibility “Ok, check email once every couple of hours or so and/or be available for urgent/critical issues (as defined by me who has no problems with realistic prioritization and telling people ‘no’) and you don’t have to use PTO for that day (I think in 10 years I’ve only had 1 urgent/critical issue come up in this situation).

      I never got complaints, everyone seemed more or less happy with the arrangement, and the work was covered. I’m not silly enough to think this method would work in all cases, jobs, and teams but I’ve found that when otherwise reasonable people sit down together to work things out, it can generally be done without too much pain.

      The only time I ever really had a problem was one team that everyone asked for the same random day off (think Tuesday May 12th and you get the idea). Turns out that on my team of 4 everyone was celebrating some type of milestone (b-day, anniversary, etc). It actually made me laugh to ask the team “Ok guys, is there a party I’m not invited to?” I honestly can’t remember how I worked that one out, I think I just told everyone to take the day and next year see if you can pick another day to celebrate… That day hurt a little and boss gave me grief, but it wasn’t the end of the world.

    14. TWW*

      I’ve been lucky enough to work in places that never denies vacation requests (as far as I know). My current employer closes down completely between Christmas and New Year’s. And the week of Thanksgiving the place is like a ghost town.

      If the business is such that there must be people working at those times, maybe offer them a bonus to make them want to volunteer?

      1. Chantel*

        Yep – same here; vacation requests don’t get denied.

        I just put in for the same time every year (usually mid-Dec. to early Jan. only) and let the boss sort out any potential conflicts with others’ requests.

    15. Policy Wonk*

      We make an announcement in the early fall that we need all requests for Thanksgiving and Christmas holiday times by (date) and we will make decisions on who gets the time off then. So requesting it earlier doesn’t give someone an edge, but employees have some predictability.

      Ditto shortly after the new year we note that people should plan ahead for summer vacations. We don’t have a deadline there, but by flagging it early, or noting that we already have e.g., 3 requests for the week of July 4th, people can see we are trying to be fair.

    16. Zephy*

      My workplace’s PTO bank resets on the employee’s hire date, rather than everyone’s PTO running 1/1-12/31. That addresses the issue of having everyone making a mad dash to “use or lose” their PTO in the last few weeks of the year, if you don’t roll over year-to-year.* It doesn’t address the fact that there are Important Family Holidays all clustered together in those weeks, which is arguably the bigger problem. Maybe just a blanket policy restricting PTO requests to no more than 3-4 months in advance? The planners are gonna plan, so I’m sure they can also plan to submit their PTO request for Christmas on August 1 instead of January 1, and that gives the non-planners (or, more likely, people whose families are non-planners) time to hammer down details on a more reasonable-for-them timescale.

      (*we don’t, although new for 2021 they are allowing us to roll over unused PTO into an FMLA bank, so we can get some paid time while on FMLA leave if ever the need arises – previously unused PTO just expired on your hire date, poof gone, sorry bout it).

    17. theletter*

      From what I’ve heard of industries that have been doing this for many years, seniority applies in deciding who gets first pick of the holidays, with specific tradeoffs – if you ask for Christmas, you have to work Thanksgiving, etc.

      Vaction times are planned as a group annually or biannually, so everyone just knows when they need to wait to plan and when the plan is set and can’t be changed unless somone is able to trade.

      To me, though, this speaks to the challenges of capitalism. What’s stopping the company from hiring enough working that shift coverage isn’t hard to find? Conversely, is your business/office/department/team doing the kind of work that needs coverage on the day after Christmas? because I know mine is NOT, and yet, somehow, we’re all trying to organize coverage for that last week of the year, when there’s never any work to do because no one else is working.

      1. Artemesia*

        I think seniority is fundamentally unfair when it comes to the major family holidays, Christmas and Thanksgiving. People should take turns. If Senior VP got Christmas last year, they get Thanksgiving this year. People with young kids particularly value Christmas; waiting till you have been there 15 years to get it misses childhood. It is good if the whole company can shut down that time of year as some can; it is great if you have Jewish employees who are happy to do Christmas in exchange for some other perk. But when you have more people who want it than you can have out on leave then, some sort of turn taking is fairer. You don’t get it your first year of employment — but it is your turn next year.

        1. Clisby*

          I agree. It’s not enough to say “if you ask for Christmas, you don’t get Thanksgiving” – it should be “and you can’t have Christmas next year.”

    18. DAMitsDevon*

      At the company I work at, we can’t submit vacation requests for the week of Thanksgiving-New Year’s until the end of September. If anyone wants to take off during that period of time, we have between the end of September to mid-October to put the request in not just with our direct supervisor, but also our administrative manager and deputy director by. The last two then look at the requests from everyone in our program to make sure that there aren’t any coverage gaps and to figure out how to fairly divvy up vacation days if there are gaps. So far as I know, no one has had their requests declined though.

    19. Sled dog mama*

      I’m lucky enough that most of my career I have worked on a team where the policy was figure it out between yourselves and that worked for us. The general rule was that 2 of the 3 had to stay in town for the holiday (we were on call for 2 sites) and if workload allowed those 2 could take a day or two off during that period. What this effectively meant was that the person who’s family was all in town volunteered to work every holiday to get away from family and the other guy and I alternated holidays where we were out of town with family.
      Looking back it was pure luck that this worked and I wish there had been a formal policy on it (beyond “play nice”). This was a health care organization so a lot of the holiday staffing policy revolved around nursing and who got premium pay for working the actual holiday and what that premium was and if there were an excess of volunteers how those shifts would be assigned. It ways a little like no one had ever considered that there were people who did not get scheduled for shifts and might want days off around a holiday. Yet another example of that place adopting a one size fits all policy that really didn’t.

    20. Techie area*

      In my department, we have to have one person from each team be available (either in person or in the case of one team, just checking in from home) each day. There are 16 people total across 3 teams.

      During the regular year, it’s never been an issue.

      Over the holidays, team leads send out a Doodle poll and ask people to fill in (by half day morning/afternoon) whether they plan to work, could work if needed, or can’t work particular time slots. As far as I know, between “plan to work” and “could work if needed” we’ve always found our minimum coverage.

      This allows people to book flights in advance (they put “can’t work”) and allows other people to take time off too if someone else is at “plan to work”. There’s also a fair amount of discussion/coordination among teammates in advance and people do tend to not plan to be away for December holidays more than a couple years in a row.

    21. CupcakeCounter*

      My mother worked at a hospital where coverage is essential. Basically they had the major holidays – New Year’s Eve/Day, Easter Break, Memorial Day, 4th of July, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, Christmas Eve/Day. Everyone in the department had to rate 1, 2, or 3 which holidays they would like off that year and you couldn’t pick the holiday’s you had off the previous year. From there, management would assign holidays using seniority and desirability of holidays you had the previous year/selected this year to make it as fair as possible. New employees would inherit the departing person’s holidays and were told up front during the hiring process.
      My mom built up a ton of goodwill after my sister and I moved out and before my son was born by volunteering to work the Christmas and Easter holidays.

    22. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      We’ve got rules in place because we’re unionized, but here’s how we do it, which I think can be used in various locations:
      Every 2-3 months we get an office-wide email with a deadline of X to submit vacation requests for the upcoming 2-3 months. The management team then reviews coverage with a goal to deny as few requests as possible. There’s a seniority rule for priority in those cases.
      Any requests out of the request period are considered separately and the priority thing doesn’t count (so people can’t get bumped).
      The teams that work well together tend to consult each other informally before submitting to make sure that there aren’t too many overlaps. If someone has something big and hard to reschedule (like a family reunion or once in a lifetime vacation), they can let their team know so the timing works out.

      November and December vacation requests are in the same batch so that it can stay balanced.

    23. I'm just here for the cats*

      I think there should be some sort of check and balances so that the same person doesn’t get all of the holiday time. So if someone wants extra time between Christmas and newyears they can take it but then they shouldn’t be able to take an extra few days off for easter.

      I’ve been in situations where I’ve been with a major planner and it made me feel like I couldn’t take time off or I had to know 10 months in advance.

    24. Momma Bear*

      Our boss announced a month or two in advance (so maybe April for summer or October for Nov/Dec) that if we were going to take time off, we should pencil it in on the department calendar. Our schedules might change, but we needed a ballpark idea of who wanted to be out when, since we had to ensure coverage for the department. If everyone wanted the same day(s) off, we could negotiate amongst ourselves or the boss could talk to us and try to figure out a reasonable compromise. Maybe it was just that we were a small team, but it always seemed to work out. The bigger issue was Christmas Eve and NYE, not summer. Even though I don’t have the same restrictions here, I’ve already talked to the person I work most closely with to discuss our collaborative projects and when would be best/worst for us to be out this summer. I don’t have a trip planned, but I know what timeframe I’m aiming for.

      If the issue is putting in time 11 months in advance maybe “open” the time for that request in the fall, not spring or allow people to schedule time off requests no more than 6 months in advance because you also don’t always know what the work priorities will be.

    25. Decidedly Me*

      Our policy is mostly first come first served with the longer you need off, the more time notice you need to give. It’s incredibly rare for time to get denied. For end of year holidays, Thanksgiving is easy, as my team is spread out across the world, so not everyone celebrates or they have it on a different day (CA vs US). Christmas/New Year’s is tougher. Everyone’s preferred/required dates are gathered at once a few months prior and then a schedule is released. We do require coverage, but at a lower capacity, so people tend to get the dates they want.

    26. fhqwhgads*

      Is coverage necessary? Because the answer here really depends on your business. I think 75% of my coworkers were off the entire last two weeks of December (and more the final week) and there was not remotely a question of who gets approved. It all was. The business assumes people just won’t be around at times when it’s predictable most people will want to be off. The handful of people who have on-call type jobs know way in advance, and that’s what they signed up for, and there’s a set rotation. And still – it’s on call, not “definitely working”. So as long as they have their phone, it’s fine.

    27. Quinalla*

      I think you make it clear how far ahead you are allowed to lock-in time off and yeah maybe you make it so that if you take extra time off at a preferred holiday that you are then considered behind anyone else who wants first dibs on the other holiday.

      I’ve not had this issue at work, but I have had it with my sister “reserving time” with my parents 6+ months out and then leaving no time for the rest of us that don’t/can’t plan that far ahead. I find this much easier to negotiate at work :)

  6. Maisie*

    For people-managers: how involved is your boss with your direct reports?

    I’m getting a new direct report soon, and I’m noticing my boss (her soon-to-be grand-boss) is adding her to meetings, getting her set-up within our platforms, etc. I’m still trying to get clarity on the expectations of her role vs. my role, but it seems like he’s doing a lot of the onboarding processes I should be doing. Am curious at what y’all think.

    1. Aquawoman*

      I’ve had 3 people start in the past 2 years. Some of it my grandboss does because he has hiring authority/works with HR/etc and I don’t have that role as much. For me, that process is completely separate from day to day work. Re the meetings, I could see him adding them to any regular departmental meetings that include all staff, but we don’t have those.

    2. A penguin!*

      My boss adds any of my new employees to standing meetings he’s running that would include said new employee, if any. Everything else is done by me, HR, or IT.

    3. WellRed*

      From outside, I think it’s a bit weird if he is doing a bunch of onboarding tasks. That’s a bit in the weeds for a grandboss. is this a new role for you too? Or your first direct report?

    4. SomebodyElse*

      Talk to your boss now and get that clarity up front.

      Is your boss a new 2nd level manager? I’m afraid old habits die hard, so they may just be doing it because the are used to doing it. If this is the case then a good conversation with them on the front end is going to remind them that you should be the one doing the hands on management of the new person.

      1. Artemesia*

        This. It is undercutting your authority with your new hire. Talk to the boss about which of the tasks you should take on as the supervisor. I have worked with someone who meddled in the management tasks of subordinates and it creates gaps where things fall between the chairs and it undercuts authority. (In my case, the new boss had a problem becoming the big boss of all the departments and still governed from their old departmental ties and habits; it was dysfunctional and she didn’t have the kind of authority and respect she should have had if she had stepped up and stopped doing her old job instead of her new one)

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I’d talk to my boss if I were in your shoes. She may just be doing it so you don’t feel buried in work.

    6. Anhaga*

      Definitely talk to your boss about it–knowing what the process and protocol will be going forward is immensely helpful. In my workplace (a very small start-up), my boss takes care of the equipment set up and connects new hires with HR, while I focus on getting the new person set up in the digital tools that we use in our jobs and in training them in the job. All of my responsibilities are directly tied to what my team does on a daily basis, while the boss and HR do the bits that are simply related to being an employee, no matter the team.

  7. Confused Anon*

    I’m in a toxic environment and am looking to leave. I had an interview for a position in my field, which is exciting, but I’m not sure if it’s genuinely a better fit for me or if I am just desperate to leave my current situation. 
    Some concerns about the place that I interviewed with are the following: I only interviewed with the director. The position supervises 2 part-time employees, yet I didn’t meet with them or anyone else and the director didn’t share much about them. I also didn’t meet any of the other staff. 

    The director was very upfront about people not being happy with the salaries (ie: they’re not high enough.) She also said that there is no custodian and no IT dept or person. (There is an IT consultant, but I don’t know where he/she is located.)

    I desperately want to get out of my current situation, but don’t want to be in another bad situation. 

    Any advice? Am I overreacting? 

    1. Student Affairs Sally*

      As someone who just left one miserable situation for one that has been significantly worse . . . if anything is giving you a red flag or an ooky feeling, listen to that. That being said – are there additional interviews planned? Can you ask to meet with any other people at the org, including the people who’d be reporting to you? Can you ask about some of the other concerns you have? If this is the only interview, I would be very concerned, not just because of the problems you’ve already mentioned.

      1. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

        All of this. Ask to speak to the people who would report to you – they could offer you insight on this role and company you wouldn’t otherwise get.

    3. Dave*

      I would ask to meet with the staff you would be managing before accepting anything.

      The IT consultant is kind of normal IME for smaller outfits. If you aren’t tech savy it can play a bigger role, but if you can do basic troubleshooting yourself or call and have them walk you thru the issue it isn’t as bad. This is assuming it is a legit IT consultant and not someone’s buddy who has a fully time job.

      The custodian thing isn’t always fun but I would ask them how they handle cleaning bathrooms now and see how their response feels for what you want to deal with.

    4. Kiitemso*

      The lack of a custodian would be a red flag for me because it usually means “people who care have to clean, those who don’t will make double the mess”. So much easier to just hire somebody, even if they only come in once a week to save money.

      I would ask more questions if you do get an offer.

      1. Joan Rivers*

        It sounds like a non-profit. It’d be interesting to have someone pose as a client and see what they pick up on. Sometimes just sitting in a waiting room gives you info. Staff will actually talk sometimes in front of clients. Or the agency vibe is obvious just from observing, or talking to other clients.

      3. The Rural Juror*

        Yep. We haven’t had a custodian for a while, but only because we haven’t hired someone to come in weekly since we’ve been back in person in the office. My office is across the hall from the kitchenette, where there’s a pull-out trash can. I can usually hear someone open the pull-out, grumble that the trash is full, but then close it and walk away. I can tell exactly who never bothers to take it out, even though the dumpster is literally right outside the back door and you barely have to step outside to toss it in. There are only 5 of us in the office, and 3 out of 5 actually bother to swap out the bags (which really only needs to be done like twice a week with so few people here). There are some people who will never help if no one makes them do it.

    6. TWW*

      Proceed with caution. It sounds like where I work (and am increasingly anxious to leave): Understaffed, underpaid, everyone desperately scrambling to get things done and heavily relying on the part of our job descriptions that says, “other duties as required.”

    7. Yellow Warbler*

      No custodian and no IT? Those departments do more to keep a business running than anything else. Hard pass, screaming and flailing, Kermit-style.

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Sounds like any other small office to me.

      I personally don’t want to go back in time when we didn’t have a weekly janitor though, no thank you on that end. But that’s because I’ve stopped having the energy to take trash out, I don’t like doing it at home and I certainly don’t like it at work.

      But I’m not sure why it would matter about IT, lots of small and medium businesses just have consultants. That depends greatly on what your scope and the mission is. The only reason I need IT right now is because they have permissions I don’t for security purposes, given our size, it’s understandable now. Back in the day, it was like four of us, why would I need to hire someone to do basic updates and troubleshoot? I didn’t. If something went seriously wrong, we’d call someone in.

    9. Smithy*

      When I was in my most toxic workplace and struggling to leave, the best thing that ever happened to me was during an interview process that I made it all the way to the end. During my very last interview with the CEO he said he didn’t think I was actually a good fit for the nonprofit’s mission and should go home and seriously think about it.

      It was the best thing that anyone could have done for me in that moment because I was so unhappy and so desperate to leave that I was applying for jobs with far too wide a net. It was a real wake up call that as painful as more months at my current job might be, fleeing to end up somewhere else bad in its own ways was not the answer I was seeking.

    10. Quinalla*

      Fine to not have a custodian on staff, they should have a cleaning service though – especially now! IT consultant is also fine for a small business.

      Definitely request a meeting with folks you’ll be managing before accepting an offer.

  8. Mask Wearing in the Office*

    I am about to start a job in person after being WFH for COVID, but I am a few weeks from being fully vaccinated. I wear a mask (sometimes two) if I am not in my house / yard / car so I am normally a strict wearer that I know may not be fully reasonable in the office because I know talking on the phone with a mask on can be muffled and difficult. What is considered normal mask wearing etiquette when you work in cubicles? Some of this is what can I expect from my new co-workers.

    1. Susie*

      When I teach over zoom with a mask on, I have a headset with a good microphone. So for calls, maybe see if your company will spring for them?

      1. LosingMyMarbles*

        I’m planning to do that too when I start teaching in person in June. I found a microphone and attached portable speaker on Amazon for 36.00 that was recommended by another professor.

    2. ThatGirl*

      Your workplace should have rules in place for this, ideally. But at my office, the capacity is at 50% and desks are pretty big, so if everyone’s seated they’re much more than 6 ft apart. So the rule is, you can take your mask off at your desk, but if you’re walking around or someone is coming to talk to you, put it on.

      1. Miss Bookworm*

        This is how it is at my office. We have fairly high high cubicals (for example I’m 5’3” and the top of the cubical hits about mid-forehead. Depending on how the desks are configured we have also added plexiglas on top to give extra height: my desk faces the back of another desk = no plexiglass because the person in that cube is facing away from me and the normal height of the cubical + distance between me and that person’s back should be enough. My cube and the person to my right, our desks face each other so we have extra plexiglass on top of it. I only take my mask off when I’m eating, drinking, or on the phone. The rest of the time I wear it.

    3. Generic Name*

      I would ask about your office’s mask policy. My office’s policy is that you must wear a mask at all times unless you are in an office by yourself (we all have offices shared with 2-3 people) with the door closed.

      1. PostalMixup*

        My company, you even have to wear a mask in a private office, because otherwise you fill it with aerosols that will expose anyone who comes in. The only time ANYONE is allowed to take off their mask is eating or drinking.

    4. MsClaw*

      Ask your new boss or whoever you’ve been interacting with in the hiring process. Some offices are masks all the time no matter what. Others have reduced capacity or shiftwork so people can be more than 6 feet apart and you don your mask when you get up to move out of your cubicle.

      Talking on the phone with a mask is really not that difficult. (I’ve been in the office this whole time). I notice people generally tend to speak much more loudly because they *think* they’re muffled but most masks are just not that thick. If you generally find talking with a mask on difficult, you might need to seek something with a different fit. Also…. no chin breakouts from the receiver pressing against your skin.

    5. Anon for this*

      Ask! Ask what their policies are.
      We still have a strict mask policy and I keep mine on 8 hours a day, talking on tje phone or in Zoom meetings is not an issue. Everyone is just a little more patient.

    6. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      If it’s something you are concerned about, you could ask about using a plastic face shield where a headset-microphone fits underneath the shield. In sports, like the NFL, this is an option that some of the coaching staff used. I know things are getting more relaxed as vaccination efforts are rolling out, but even a cloth mask doesn’t FULLY protect because eyes are an entry point for infection.

      1. Student Affairs Sally*

        Face shields don’t protect others from *your* aerosols, though, so it would still need to be paired with a mask.

      2. KAZ2Y5*

        Face shields only protect your eyes. They don’t stop you from either spreading Covid virus if you are sick, or breathing it in from someone else who is sick and near you.

    7. introverted af*

      This really depends on the office. My office, we have cubicles that don’t go all the way floor-to-ceiling and closed door offices. If you’re in your workspace, you can have your mask off but anything outside of that or with other people you have to put it on.

      My husband’s old office was relatively open office, with some dividers between desks, and they had to have them all the time.

    8. Amtelope*

      We are requiring that masks be worn in hallways or if you’re in close proximity to someone, but you can take your mask off at your desk in your cubicle (they’re pretty big cubes, so people are more than six feet apart even if they’re in adjoining cubes.)

    9. I'm just here for the cats*

      A family member works at a call center. She is able to WFH But there are those who don’t have internet or for other reasons chose to stay in office. They must wear the mask the entire time, except while eating and while on the phone. They have larger cubicals with high walls, so it’s almost like a mini office. When someone comes into the cubical they have to announce themselves (knock) and then both people where the masks.

      Even nicer headsets can still cause muffling on phone calls. I would check with your employer and find out what they suggest.

    10. calonkat*

      They make these cage like contraptions that go under a mask (usually called lipstick protectors and similar). They keep the fabric away from your mouth, which really helps a lot with enunciation.

    11. rear mech*

      Soft-spoken person who has been working a hotel front desk throughout the pandemic here. The answer is that you get used to talking on the phone with a mask after a little practice, and you will just get way, way better at enunciating clearly. Just channel your inner NPR or BBC radio announcer – speak just a *little* slower and more crisply than feels necessary.

      1. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

        Indoors, I wouldn’t rely on 6-foot distancing as enough protection by itself. Outdoors in a breeze that’s reasonable, indoors it’s risky. The virus floats in the air like smoke, and indoors it can travel through the whole space. So a good mask will still reduce risk even when you’re 6 foot apart.

        Some short animations here:
        https://www.phc.ox.ac.uk/research/resources/aerosols-and-making-spaces-space
        (although I think with the present evidence on transmission from surfaces, it’s overkill to wash your hands every time you take off a mask.)

  9. JustTellMe*

    How do you deal with a boss that is indecisive and not confident in her own decisions? It drives the whole team crazy and makes meetings very tense as people get frustrated that she can’t just make a decision. Decisions take too long to make and when she finally does settle on something, she often second guesses it or otherwise doesn’t know how to confidently carry the decisions through.

    1. Gone Girl*

      Out of curiosity, is it a matter of her choosing between different options? (I.e. “should we go with option A or B?”) Or are they more open-ended decisions? (“What should we do?”)

      As much as I think a manager should be decisive regardless, I can see how more open-ended decisions may cause some hesitancy. If they’re more options, maybe backing them up with your reasoning will help her come to a decision faster (“I think option A is best because of XYZ”)

      (Unfortunately I had the opposite problem where it was Boss’s way or the highway, lol)

      1. JustTellMe*

        I’ve seen it with both kinds of decisions, closed and open ended. I respect that she wants to take our feedback into account, but when coworkers disagree on the best path that leads for a troubled decision making process as we need a leader to bring it all together and ultimately decide which way we will go.

        1. Joan Rivers*

          Sometimes taking a vote or going around the table and each commenting could help. Watching two debate the pros and cons might clarify because they can ask each other questions to clarify their reservations.
          Or not.

    2. LKW*

      Well you can’t necessarily change your boss, but you can give your boss enough information so that she understands the potential impact. When I find someone is struggling with a decision I rely on my handy decision matrix. I list the options, then lay out the benefits, risks (or pros/cons) and other considerations. You can think about time to implement (H/M/L if you have limited info) or overall costs (H/M/L if limited info).

      Usually people only have one or two really important criteria for making a decision. Is this within my budget? Am I taking on too much risk? Can I get this done in time? Will this cause an impact to other teams? If you can help clarify what her major criteria are, you can frame the options so she can make an informed decision. Quick example, if her motivation is cost – then she might lean to the lowest cost option. But if the lowest cost option will cause down stream costs or will need to be replaced faster because it can’t hold up to wear and tear better than the higher cost option – feed that in.

      1. JustTellMe*

        Thanks, I like the idea of solidifying her criteria and being more clear on the risks/benefits. Thank you!

      2. Chantel*

        “I rely on my handy decision matrix. I list the options, then lay out the benefits, risks (or pros/cons) and other considerations.”

        To me, this is what the boss should be doing.

        In my previous job, I had a boss who simply didn’t make decisions. Just constantly had to have his hand held about decisions he was supposed to make, and, rather than working out things and then asking the team for input, he’d start fresh with all of us and brainstorm, write down what we suggested, sign off on it, and hand if off to grandboss. It was so frustrating, and I finally stopped talking because it just wasn’t my job to do his job for him.

        It was a main reason I left and have never looked back.

        1. Dramamethis*

          I saw this in my last company and it was because the c suite head of the 2 depts she managed would not allow her managers or supervisors, including one who was a VP, any auton9to make decisions without her Express approval.

          And yup, that bottlenecks everything.

    3. Msnotmrs*

      A tactic that works a lot for children who struggle with decisiveness is giving them a really limited set of options to choose from–red shoes or blue shoes today? Then they have ownership over the decision, but don’t get overwhelmed by options. Could you do something like this? Or even present the options in a way that makes it APPEAR you’re doing this?

        1. Chantel*

          Oh, boy. *sigh* I’ve always wondered why people like this get themselves into leadership roles when they’re so clearly uncomfortable in them.

  10. New Hat Today*

    I am the newest member of a four person team (under a year). Three of us are managers, and we have no director, so we report to who would ordinarily be the grandboss. The team has been without a director for several years, and grandboss has referenced it “being hard” without a director, but there have been no indications that there are plans to fill that position.

    However… I also get the feeling that I am being groomed for that position. The three manager roles are disparate, and I am the only one who has familiarity with all three roles, as well as that of the administrative person on our team. Grandboss keeps tapping me to work on things that could belong to the others, or to review things that the others have done. I get the feeling I have an easier time working with grandboss than other members of my team.

    I would love to be the director one day. That’s my long term goal, and I would love to see that happen here. But I don’t know what, if anything, I can do with the feeling I have right now. And again, it’s just a feeling: nobody has said this role will be filled, and nobody has indicated to me that I might be considered. But is there anything I can do to make it more likely that, should it come up, I would be considered? I am worried about stepping on the toes of my colleagues. I do not think either of the other managers would want the director role, but I don’t want to bolster a hypothetical director application in the future by overstepping on their projects now (even though grandboss sometimes asks me to).

    Any advice or insight is appreciated!

    1. Reba*

      I think the main thing to do is talk about it! Get those “feelings” and suppositions and maybes out in the open!

      Do you have one on ones or periodic reviews with the Grandboss? At some time when it would make sense to talk about your progress and development, just name this. “Boss, you’ve said a few times that the lack of director is challenging for the department. Could we talk about if there are plans for that position? I know I haven’t been in my current role long, but I wanted to say that being in a director role is my long-term goal, and I’d love to be considered for that here if it becomes possible.” Then maybe you could talk about these stretch responsibilities and what it would take to get to the director level?

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep, this. You can ask about learning/doing more in preparation to be eligible for consideration.

        “I am worried about stepping on the toes of my colleagues.”
        That’s kind of you. If you are a woman it will not serve you at all. I’d suggest a shift in focus based on merit. Focus on what you can do now to earn that position. I am not suggesting anything cutthroat rather I am suggesting an inward assessment of what skills and knowledge you will need to gather to do the director’s job well.

        1. New Hat Today*

          97% of my organization is women, and if I were the director, I’d be in charge of the people whose toes I am currently trying not to tread. As for skills and knowledge, I’m very confident there– the only skill I can’t get is direct supervision of others, but neither of my colleagues has that, either.

      2. New Hat Today*

        Thank you, Reba! I do have regular check-ins with Grandboss but I have a work anniversary coming up, so I will take that as an opportunity to schedule an evaluation conversation and mention that as part of the conversation. Grandboss appreciates transparency so I think they’d respond well to me stating I’d be interested in stretch responsibilities.

    2. Binky*

      Can you ask your grandboss for a meeting to discuss your career progression? You don’t have to ask for the promotion straight out, but you should definitely express your interest. And you can get a timeline, and indications of what areas you can work to improve on/gain experience in.

      1. New Hat Today*

        I was just talking to a colleague about the norms around performance reviews, and I’ve decided I’m going to ask for a review soon. I’m going to identify a few different career progression things and have that be one of them. Thank you!

    3. BRR*

      Ask if there are plans to fill the role and depending on the answer you can mention you’d be interested or float the idea of stepping into that role or if it’s possible adjust things to sort of oversee what you’re currently overseeing and what the director’s oversees.

      I can also tell you what not to do. Don’t only wait for them to approach you and don’t assume your colleagues aren’t interesting in the role. A lot of people won’t say no to more money even if they wouldn’t like the job otherwise.

      1. New Hat Today*

        I wasn’t so much thinking about waiting for them to approach me, but more waiting to see if the topic of adding the position comes up. Does that not seem wise?

        (As for my colleagues… One of them is not qualified for the position [not a judgment, they’d agree if asked]. The other one could probably make a compelling argument, and I’m 80% sure would not want the job, but you’re right, that’s not 100%.)

        1. BRR*

          I would casually ask what the plans are for filling the role. It sounds like there are a lot of natural opportunities to ask about it b

    4. VI Guy*

      You have been there only a year. You can be direct, but “I am enjoying this type of work, specifically . Can you recommend training or other ways in which I can improve so that I could do more in future?”

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Talk to your boss about it. And stop viewing them as the grand-boss, they are the one you report to, they are your boss until a director is put into place to report to if that happens.

      Be aware that this may not be grooming for advancement, it may be them taking advantage of you and giving you more work just because they know you’re capable. If they’ve gone this long without a serious look into getting someone in that role, they are finding ways to continue to keep that cost out for a reason.

      So be up front that you want that role and if it’s possible that it’s going to be added. But again, be cautious because a lot of places are unscrupulous and will set you up to take on director functions while paying you a manager salary.

      1. New Hat Today*

        Thanks for your concern. I don’t actually view my boss as my grandboss, I just didn’t want to be too specific about what role that person has. I am not worried about being taken advantage of; I’ve been there, and this is very different. It’s the most supportive organization I’ve ever worked. But you’re right that it might not be setting me up for that position, so I will just have to talk to my boss. Thanks!

  11. SA*

    Tips for coming off like a well-balanced person when I’m waiting to get into therapy?

    I’m in a grad program, have access thru my school, and I’ve reached out –– but I’ve got a month or two before I’m able to get in / actually get help / maybe possibly see changes. I’m trying not to fall apart in literally every email I send but it’s tough not to come across as panicky and weird

    Suggestions are welcome!

    1. StressedButOkay*

      I’m not sure how good or actually useful they are, but I have been seeing a lot about therapy apps! Maybe take a look to if something is a good fit as a stop gab measure while you wait for the ‘real’ therapy to begin. Other than that, I also suggest Headspace and breathing apps.

      1. The Original K.*

        This is exactly what I’m doing. I’m on BetterHelp while I search for a local therapist, because I needed to speak to someone sooner than my search allows (therapists everywhere are swamped and I was getting a lot of responses from people not taking new patients, or just not hearing back from people at all). I’m using insurance so my options are more limited than they would be if I weren’t using it.

        Thankfully I have a virtual appointment with a local person next week, so we’ll see how that goes.

        1. Joan Rivers*

          How old-fashioned am I? I was going to suggest you read some books!
          But there are books on a variety of emotional / therapeutic topics. And they’re free at the library. Just because it’s not brand new doesn’t mean it won’t be helpful.
          Look at what you think your issue are that you’ll be talking w/a therapist about and browse the books.
          And, re: therapy, I discovered when I had a mediocre, always-late therapist that it was the PROCESS more than her “wisdom” that was key. So I learned to focus while waiting for her, to prioritize. That alone told me some things were less important in the grand scheme.
          Therapists don’t give you magic answers, they can be really helpful but it’s the work you put into it and the answers you decide are correct for you that count.

          1. Joan Rivers*

            Even an old, “simplistic” book like “What Color Is Your Parachute?” might help by triggering “Hey, we know THAT!” You can get inspiration from sources that aren’t brilliant, it can remind you that many of us have problems, some just have different ones.
            And a book about family dynamics or Adult Child of Alcoholics or other family of origin issues can be as helpful as a book about work.
            Asking those you respect what books they’ve found helpful might be illuminating too. Or email your future therapist and ask if they can recommend anything to read?

          2. UpwardSpiral*

            I’m starting to read “The Upward Spiral” while in a similar spot. Not far enough in to recommend, but a book to look into.

    2. Procrastinating at work*

      Take a few minutes between typing and sending the email. If you can walk away from your computer for 2 minutes to get a glass of water or just pace a few circles near your work space. This should help you calm down a little bit and allow you a chance to reread your email and see how it sounds the second time

    3. Tuckerman*

      That’s rough. You might check in with your advisor to see if there are options like semester leave of absence or a reduced credit load. You can be vague.

      1. Ashley*

        Or even if you can take a week or two off. Not having the normal breaks in the school calendar doesn’t not help one find balance. See if you can take some time to do what you need to recharge like curl in a ball on the couch and read favorite fun books or watch mindless movies.

      2. Thorisa*

        I used to work in a university mental health clinic (not as a therapist!), and I would advise against this – or at least ask the clinic if you would still be eligible for their services. Usually, students on official leave of absence are not eligible to use many school resources, and the clinic I worked in was only available to full-time students who paid a specific student services fee. If you do need to take a leave or reduced credit load, instead ask the school’s clinic if they can provide community referrals. They usually have well-kept lists of low-cost or sliding scale options nearby that might be able to get you in sooner.

        In the meantime, definitely take the advice to step away from emails if you get overwhelmed. I find it helpful to handwrite notes about what I want to say before actually putting it into an email. Once I get all my anxious thoughts out on paper, I can pick out what I actually want to say and arrange it in a logical way. Good luck! Grad school is hard and stressful, and you are definitely not alone.

        1. Tuckerman*

          It’s tricky. I’m an academic advisor and while it’s important to have access to mental health resources, I’ve seen students fail out of their program and I wish they had taken a medical leave. At our University, students enrolled in the student health plan stay enrolled for the full enrollment period, so even though they lose access to the student health center, they still have coverage and assistance finding local counselors.

    4. OneTwoThree*

      -This is a season. You are in a season of “panicky and weird” right now. You are seeking out therapy and are on your way into a new season. I find comfort in knowing good change is coming.

      -Remember, the tone is hard in emails. You may read something with a tone the person did or didn’t mean when they wrote the email. Also, even if you are panicky in your tone in your head, it might not come off to others that way. Assume the best case senario.

      -There are worksheets online about working through what you think you know to what you believe is true. You might search terms like CBT Anxiety Worksheet and find one that works for you.

    5. Reba*

      There is an old Captain Awkward post called “How to tighten up your game at work when you’re depressed.” Are you familiar with that one?

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        That post was absolutely brilliant for me. I struggle a lot with severe depression (and a few other mental issues) and have to stop my staff finding out 99% of the time.

        1. Reba*

          Yeah, it’s so good because it’s just “lock down these few, key, actionable details” and then your public face will be set. You can deal with the emotional stuff outside of that, but you’ve got a professional armor in place.

      2. RagingADHD*

        That post is great advice for anything that might take your executive function or general coping ability down a notch – depression, anxiety, EF issues, exhaustion, illness, overwhelm/burnout, long-term situations that might cause distraction or high stress (even if it’s good stuff), you name it.

    6. Binky*

      For the email part, write what you need, then take a step away. After a bit, come back and see how much stuff you can strip out. Are there unnecessary apologies/explanations/self-deprecation? Shorten your emails as much as possible (without excluding basic hi/bye etiquette) and you’ll probably reduce any weirdness.

      Best of luck with the therapy.

      1. MissCoco*

        This is great advice. Even with my anxiety very well controlled my email default is still apologetic and wordy
        Taking out exclamation marks goes a long way as well.

        I’ll also add grounding and breathing exercises are key for me when I’m writing and editing an email that’s pushing my nerves

    7. Elliot*

      I’m sorry you’re struggling! I hope therapy is helpful!
      I very frequently wait 15 minutes – an hour before typing an email and sending it. I’ll stand up, stretch, have some water, and then edit and hit send :)

    8. RagingADHD*

      I often ask myself , “How can the reader use this comment or information? What can they do with this info on a practical level?”

      It helps me find the right boundary of what to share with whom. My nearest and dearest can respond to my feelings by giving me a hug. My supervisor really can’t. Conversely, my supervisor can adjust my deadline on a project, and my loved ones can’t.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Panic and fear say, “I am alone! There’s no help insight!”

      Balance says, “Help is coming. It’s choppy right now, but there’s a plan and help is coming.”

      I have mentioned a few times that I am a fan of extreme examples because it really makes stuff obvious. A friend did a tour of duty in Vietnam. He said he was taught to tell the wounded, “Help is coming” even if he could not see any help coming. The reason for this is because injured people can be calmer and more cooperative if they believe others are coming to help also. It’s that sense of being alone or being without the right resources that can really push our buttons.

      This rule of thumb is good for day-to-day situations, not just times of violent warfare. Constantly remind yourself that you have a plan and help IS indeed coming.

    10. ScreamingAtTheAbyss*

      There’s no one good answer but:
      – Write your emails but don’t send them. Instead take a break to meditate, breathe, do some meditative like chores (folding laundry, doing dishes, repetitive work type things). Something that’ll distract you from that panicky state. Come back and tweak anything that is coming off as hyper stressed. The emails can wake 10-20 mins for you to send them.

      – It sounds cliché but start “journaling”. I mean this in the sense of a feelings dump. Even if it’s as simple as “I am so gosh darn panicky right now and everything is going wrong and I’m going to get fired and the world sucks.” Getting those feelings down somewhere open up some space in your chest once you have it off. Alternatively, you can do this aloud to some random inanimate object if you hate writing.

      – Set aside time in a regular cadence to pull yourself out of the world and focus on nothing. I’m talking every couple hours take 15 mins to yourself. Go for a walk, stare at the popcorn ceiling and find patterns in it, breathe in the smell of the wind. Something that’s removing you from the chaos of the world and reducing it down to appreciation of what you can pull in through your senses.

      – Self care. Watch videos that make you happy – I like John Oliver’s Salmon video as a quick pick me up. Listen to music. Read something exciting. Curl up under a pile of blankets with a favorite drink. Sit in a hammock. Find a neighbor with a pet to say hi to as they’re out on a walk.

      You can get through this. It sucks, and your work isn’t going to be perfect, but find a routine to just maintain yourself until you can get there.

      Most of all: Be kind to yourself. Just like you would be if you were going into work every day with the flu.

      Take care, I am hoping good things come your way soon.

    11. Esmeralda*

      If you can afford it, my college age son used BetterHelp while waiting to get in to see a school therapist (I believe it was about $300 for a month — your insurance may cover it, if you have insurance. I think they do discounts if you have financial need). He called and set up the account on a Friday, had a telehealth the following Tuesday. Really needed someone sooner, but that was the fastest turnaround we could find.

      As for the emails: don’t send anything immediately. Write your response, let it sit for at least an hour or two. Or longer if possible. I myself will do this when I’m feeling pissy or stabby — remove the recipient’s email address tho so you don’t accidentally send it. Remember to keep things shorter, no need to go into long explanations or detailed apologies, use bullets (I find bullets make me stick to actual points). Have some templates or standard text that you can rely on to be bland and professional and even-toned. If you have someone on Team You who is good at this sort of thing, have them help you set it up and/or look through your drafts. You may be doing better than you think!

      Good luck — be kind to and patient with yourself!

      1. Lizzie*

        I often put ‘Santa’ in the address line before composing my emails, so if I do get distracted or whatever and accidentally press send, it won’t go anywhere.
        Of course, if it did magically go to Santa, I am sure he and Mrs Santa and the elves would be sympathetic and might even send a consoling little gift to a frazzled email writer.

  12. Fluffernutter*

    Any tips for internal interviews? My parent company owns a bunch of locations. I have an interview coming up for a job I applied for at another company owned by them. We’re pretty much completely separate except that I am considered an internal applicant since our parent is the same. Should I just prepare as I would for external positions?

    2. Pickled Limes*

      My biggest tip for internal interviews is don’t assume the people interviewing you know anything about you or your past performance. Say everything you would say to an interviewer who’s never heard of you. If you assume “everybody in the company knows I got the X award” and don’t mention it in the interview, then it’s possible your interviewer won’t know an important thing about you that could sway their decision.

    3. LimeRoos*

      Yeah, prep the same as for an external interview. I did the same thing in my last two jobs – job 1 was working for one healthcare non-profit that recently expanded their footprint by purchasing other local healthcare systems. When I wanted to leave, I was able to see all the internal postings for each of the other systems and when I wasn’t able to get interviewed for anything within job 1’s system, I started applying to the other ones. It worked out well, I prepped for the interview like it was external, but I think knowing that I had already been vetted with main company did help my chances.

    4. Smithy*

      I agree about largely treating this like an external interview, but I also think it helps to have a few transition phrases in mind if there are systems or structures that they probably know. If you’re trying to talk about work that might connects to the parent company, using phrases like “As you may be familiar with Parent Company HR Platform, I XYZed…” I’ve found it’s a good way to call out some common ground, and if it so happens that this company or this person isn’t familiar – it’s a moment for the interviewer to ask for more detail.

      I find that phrases like this help identify areas that your interview has a lot of common ground with, but also a way to save face for someone who’s not. If the interviewer uses the Parent Company HR Platform once a year, it can be a way to ask for more detail as the interviewer. It can help you tease out if there are any shared moments, and if there aren’t – it’s not overly familiar or presumptuous.

  13. BadWolf*

    Just things that are awkward. I have to take some time off soon to help out my mother after surgery. My new-ish (to me) manager often uses “mommy” when talking about how she’s doing and my upcoming time off. I’m in the US and where I live, usually only children use “mommy” versus mom or mother so it feels really weird when he says it. He says it in context of supporting my time away, so I’m not generally complaining. I just hope none of my coworkers think that I’m also calling my mom, mommy, at work (if he’s saying “BadWolf will be helping her mommy next month so we won’t be putting her on the Llama project until later” to my coworkers).

    1. Ya Girl*

      Yikes! Is this the sort of thing he does often? If so, I’m sure your coworkers will know this is a him-thing. Otherwise, just call her your mom or mother with your coworkers and I’m sure they’ll figure it out pretty quickly.

      1. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

        Right. That is a very weird (and infantilizing) tick your boss has, BadWolf. I’ve never called my mom “mommy,” even when I was a kid, so it would be weird as hell if a stranger referred to my mother that way.

    2. JustTellMe*

      Jeez that is awkward. I would probably try to sneakily address it by responding and slightly emphasizing “Mom” when I say it. “How’s your mommy doing?” – ” Thanks for asking, my *Mom* is doing well.” And just trying to repeat Mom more than I usually would to see if he picks up on it. Or you might even go more formal just to draw more attention to it and say “My Mother is doing well.” And just continue to use the word “Mother” in work communications about her.

    3. TWW*

      For purposes of leave requests, everyone in my personal life is a “family member.” If I have to be more specific for FMLA reasons, my mom (whom I call Mummy BTW) is my “parent.”

    4. Not So NewReader*

      If you can pull it off, you can softly chuckle and say, “Oh my! I have never called my mother “mommy” and each time you say that I have to remind myself not to laugh.”
      Alternatively, “I stopped calling her “mommy” once I hit kindergarten.”

      Yeah, it’s weird but so far it seems pretty benign, or is there something else running concurrently?

    5. I'm just here for the cats*

      I’m wondering if he calls his own mother Mommy? Is he trying to be funny or is this some sort of underhanded way to undermine you. If anything I would bring it up with your co workers. if you’re all having a conversation and boss isn’t around ask, I’ve noticed that Boss keeps saying Mommy instead of parent or mother when referencing my upcoming time off. Has he said similar things with you?

  14. Crystal Waters*

    I saw a post on here a few weeks ago, and it got me thinking about my own situation.
    I’m graduating college next month, and will be job searching soon. I have a non-binary gender, I use they/them most of the time, but I also use (and prefer) neo-pronouns in close circles. (Sea/seas/seaself) I don’t really expect many people who I’m not close with to use these, it’s too much of a pain to inform everyone, and many people don’t take my gender seriously. I would love to come out once I start working full-time, but I’m wondering if it’s realistic to expect companies to be progressive enough to use my pronouns, or if we as a society just aren’t there yet.

    For reference, I majored in finance, and will probably be working in a professional office environment, I can’t really imagine feeling comfortable coming out in an office, but maybe it will be fine, who knows?

    1. Web Crawler*

      My gut says that the finance industry as a whole isn’t quite there yet for neopronouns. But once you get a job, you can get a feel for whether your specific workplace or team might be open to it. (I’m basing this off of my own experience where I’ve seen two people total using they/them in my large company, and no neopronouns, even within the LGBT resource group.)

      1. Joan Rivers*

        “I don’t really expect many people who I’m not close with to use these, it’s too much of a pain to inform everyone, and many people don’t take my gender seriously” —
        Not trying to nitpick, but if you say “it’s too much of a pain” for YOU then you have to expect that the rest of the world may see it that way too.
        The more you show self-respect the more others will respect you too. But it’s not easy to do this, I’m sure. But industries are made up of people and they vary. Good luck.

      2. Haven’t picked a user name yet*

        I work for a top North American bank and it is completely normal to see pronouns in signatures. It is a very inclusive environment. Inclusivity is something you can screen for in interviews without self disclosing. Finance is a very broad industry, and I have worked in public accounting, private companies and now a large bank and there are firms across finance, including the big four that are progressive and inclusive. It might take a bit of screening but they are out there.

    2. Keymaster of Gozer*

      It depends a lot on geographical area too, I’ve noticed. There’s some firms I’ve worked at in London that’ll be okay with neopronouns (long as they have a pronounciation guide) – but the places outside a major city are definitely not. They’ll accept ‘they/them’ but sadly not anything else.

      Best advice I can give is to get a ‘feel’ for the general office culture/see if there are other non binary staff and what they use before coming out. I believe we’ve got a way to go with neopronoun acceptance I’m afraid :(

      ‘They/them’ is accepted is our office and I work in a highly conservative industry (IT in the heavy engineering sector) though. Definitely best of luck mate!

    3. MMMMMmmmmMMM*

      I hate to say it, but unless you’re in a very progressive city, neo-pronouns will be think it is weird in the finance sector. I think, unless you’re somewhere very, very conservative, the they/them should be okay. But! It all depends on the workplace. Get a feel for it in the interviews, maybe?

    4. RabbitRabbit*

      It definitely depends. I work in a large hospital in a large US city, and one of the new lab techs was introduced at a departmental meeting as being non-binary and using they/them pronouns (in-person meeting pre-pandemic). I’m unsure how good their direct coworkers are at using the correct pronouns as I don’t work in that division, but I’ve been seeing even cis- people (mainly women) listing their pronouns in their email signatures – which I think is helpful to avoid ambiguity as well as support normalizing declaring your pronouns.

      1. RabbitRabbit*

        Forgot to add – neopronouns will probably be a stretch except (or even in) the most progressive workplaces.

        1. Dwight Schrute*

          They said they’re listing the pronouns in their email signature, so I’d assume that’s how RabbitRabbit knows people are cis

          1. ecnaseener*

            …how does that tell you a person is cis? “She/her” doesn’t mean I’m cis or trans, unless I write “she/her (which is new for me)” or “she/her (as I’ve been all my life)”

        2. OhNo*

          Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but your comment reads like you might be trying for a “gotcha” here. I gotta say, though, it’s really not that weird to glean such info from conversation, especially if you’re in a workplace where talking about gender is welcomed. Sometimes people outright identify themselves as cis, sometimes they make comments about what they have/haven’t had to deal with that casually outs them as cis, and sometimes you can get a pretty good feel from the questions they ask or the way the approach the topic whether or not they are trans.

          Is it still based on assumption sometimes? Sure. And there are definitely stealth trans folk who have perfected the art of coming across as cis. But as someone who is trans and has had to watch their language a lot to try not to out myself as such, you’d be surprised how many hints there are in perfectly normal conversation that can give you a sense of someone’s gender journey, if you’re looking for them.

          1. ecnaseener*

            Wasn’t trying for a “gotcha” (and I hoped the “just wondering” softened it enough) but yes my hope was to gently point out to Rabbit and anyone else reading that *if* the statement was based on an assumption that you can reliably tell who’s trans by looking at them or chatting with them in a workplace environment, that’s incorrect and it’s worth reevaluating those types of assumptions.

            1. OhNo*

              Ah, understood! I’ve been on the receiving end of those “did you just assume my gender??” non-jokes from transphobic people often enough that I worried you might be going for that sort of vibe. Obviously not the case here, so thank you for clarifying!

              I agree, though, that it’s important to point out that there are often assumptions that go into how we identify others’ gender. It’s also worth remembering that we are usually basing that assumption on something, and it can be helpful to pick that apart (if for no other reason, then to make sure we’re not leaning on stereotype or bias to make that call).

    5. ....*

      My honest answer is that people will not respect or respond positively to the Neo pronouns. Not saying that’s right just how it is. Especially in finance. Also not sure where you are in the US but that comes into play too. Sorry. I would stick with they/then at least at first.

    6. Jules the 3rd*

      I agree, society is not all the way there with you yet.

      I am working hard to keep up with changes, and work for a fairly progressive (Fortune 100 tech) company. I have heard of nepronouns, but have only seen ‘xe/xem/xir, ze/hir/hirs’ in use, and ‘Sea/seas/seaself’ is totally new to me (though wow, the ‘Pronoun Provider’ tumbler looks pretty thorough, must dig more…). My employer encourages people to put their pronouns on their Slack / email sigs, and I assume that people who do understand at least the basics of neopronouns. In the US, we have about 30% posting pronouns. Among managers, it’s higher, about 40%.

      My impression is that ‘they’ or ‘xe / ze’ would fly with only occasional questions in my company, but that people would always ask about any of the other neopronouns. You run the risk of being known as ‘the person with the neopronouns’ in either case, so definitely check out the office culture.

    7. Theo*

      From one nonbinary person to another — I’d stick to they/them at work. The level of acceptance of that is a lot higher in office environments! It does depend, though, if you’re sort of willing to be the sacrificial nonbinary guinea pig; do you want to break them in for neopronouns? Do you want to have the same kind of conversations over and over, potentially dealing with judgmental BS from coworkers? Do you to hold sea/seas as a good, affirming thing for a small group, or are you willing to potentially take nonsense in order to be fully seen? The great thing about the latter is that you might be setting up a better environment for the people who come after you! But it might be at the expense of your own exhaustion. There’s nothing wrong with just wanting to go to work and not give them access to the deeper levels of yourself; if they/them is comfortable, you might consider using that professionally (the same way someone might be Molly with friends and family but use Margaret at work). But there is ALSO nothing wrong with insisting on the most accurate words for you! You just have to internalize that it might be a long road, especially since the familiarity with sea/seas is going to be even lower than, say, Spivak.

      If it *is* really important to you to use sea/seas, and it will really wear on you to not, another option is to look for positions with queer and trans focused organizations! They could often use a really good financial brain :D

      1. nonbinary writer*

        This last point is a really great one! There are lots of lgbtq orgs and nonprofits who certainly need good financial stewardship, and that could be a great place to look for jobs where you could truly be your whole self.

        I’m hoping the world gets there with neopronouns! I use two sets of pronouns (they/he) but even at my progressive workplace I’m hesitant to how folks will react to that/implement that, so I stick with they/them. Fingers crossed 10 years from now they world will be more open to the multitude of pronoun options.

      2. GS*

        Yes, another nonbinary person here to say– will it feel worse not to try, or worse to try and be (ignored/put down). This differs between people, for me it would be harder to have someone gender me incorrectly after I’d asked them to, because it feels like deliberate disrespect, whereas if I don’t tell them I can keep believing the best of them.

        Other folks will feel just the opposite, that not speaking up for themselves chafes even if the outcome isn’t great.

      3. Cj*

        I think I could pretty easily get used to using they/them for non-binary person, as they are well known pronouns, and are used in the singular when you don’t know the gender of the person.

        I know you should refer to people like they want you to, but if there are a lot of people that start using different neopronouns, not just a standard set of the like ze/hir/hirs, I’m going to have trouble remembering who uses what. I’ve never heard of “seas” before.

        1. Quandong*

          There are plenty of ways to keep track of what pronouns to use for people, CJ. I’m sure there will be many unfamiliar neopronouns coming your way in future, and of course you would not like to cause distress to people you work with, or clients, or friends. I hope you can come up with a few cool memory aids that suit you for this purpose.

            1. Cj*

              No apologies necessary! It was actually just my computer automatically switching to lower case for the second letter, and I never bothered to change it!

          2. Cj*

            I’m just not sure why there needs to be many neopronouns in the first place. I understand that language changes, and can see where non-binary people would want their own set of pronouns instead of just using “they”.

            We have “he” for men and “she” for women, not numerous sets of pronouns for each. I wish there could be agreement on one set for non-binary persons. Or do each of these neopronouns indicate where on the non-binary spectrum a person is?

            I would use whatever pronouns a person requested, because that is the right thing to do. (Although I’d have a little trouble calling a person “it” like the kid wanted in a recent Dear Prudence podcast on Slate.) I’m kind of confused why there are so many different ones. I’m not saying it’s wrong, just confusing to me.

            1. Cj*

              I wanted to add that this is all pretty new stuff to me (considering how old I am) and I live in an area where if you are non-binary, you don’t announce it. I don’t know any (out) trans people, and do not know anybody who uses pronouns other than he and she. But I’m trying!

            2. Director of Alpaca Exams*

              The nuances of neopronoun choice are best understood like the nuances of shirt choice. Some people like button-downs, some like blouses, some like t-shirts, some like tunics, some like sweaters… what you put on is an expression of who you are that feels right to you, is all. There’s a variety because people are varied.

              There’s no code to it—I mean, you might be able to guess a bit about someone because they use zie/hir or fae/faer, just like you could guess a bit about someone because they wear Renaissance garb or French-cuff shirts, but your guess might be wrong, and you’ll learn much more from actually talking to the person.

              1. Calliope*

                Yeah but other people don’t have to remember what shirt each of the people they occasionally interact with is wearing and use it without a reminder each time.

                1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

                  That wasn’t the topic under discussion, and it’s a bit rude to go out of your way to mention how inconvenient nonbinary pronouns are in a thread where a nonbinary person was asking for advice and support.

              2. Kt*

                I think this is an interesting analogy because we have many workplaces with strict dress codes, where the response to “well I like (x shirt)” is “wear it on the weekend”. And Theo a few posts above says, “There’s nothing wrong with just wanting to go to work and not give them access to the deeper levels of yourself.”

                It reminds me of many other conversations about bringing one’s authentic self to work. We seem to toggle back and forth between “work is for money and you need to be pleasant, rather than authentic” and “work is a part of life, and you should be allowed to be your full self”. From clothes to hairstyles to swearing to gender presentation (both questions of binarity and older questions of “can women present a court case in pants rather than a skirt and hose”).

                As I’ve aged I’ve gone different directions on parts of these questions. I’m far more conformist in some ways (not worth the bother) and far less conformist in other ways (no f*(&s left, not willing to compromise). It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.

        2. allathian*

          Yup, same here. I try to respect each person for who and what they are, but anyone who wants to use pronouns other than she/he/they will probably be labeled as difficult in my head, at least until I get to know them. I’ll try to use the pronouns people consider to be the correct ones for them, but if it’s something other than the three standard alternatives, I’m probably going to think less of them (you know Lee, the one with the weird pronouns), because remembering the pronouns is just going to be more effort than I’m willing to make for a casual acquaintance, which is how I think of most of my coworkers outside my team that I don’t interact with daily or even weekly. I’m also not willing to be an ally to the point that I’d want to start explaining the pronouns of someone else to people who are even less aware about these things than I am, especially if it was likely to come up often.

          To be fair, I’ve never worked with anyone who is out as trans or who I couldn’t instantly categorize in my head as either male or female passing, so it’s entirely possible that if I found myself working with someone with unusual pronoun preferences, I’d just do it without thinking because I’d have a personal relationship with that person. That said, my attitude is probably somewhat influenced by my main working language, Finnish, because it doesn’t have gendered pronouns, so misgendering someone is unlikely to come up. My second working language is Swedish, which has the gendered pronouns han/hon and the gender-neutral hen, which is used like they in English both when you don’t know the gender of a person and to describe a non-binary person. I haven’t met anyone who uses hen/hens as their pronouns yet, but I doubt I’d have any trouble getting used to that.

    8. meyer lemon*

      You may be able to feel out your particular office environment a bit more once you’re in it. You might end up with a similar situation to your non-work life, where there is a small group of trusted coworkers who you can ask to use neo-pronouns, but for clients and whatnot, it may not really work.

    9. Firecat*

      I recommend TD Bank as a great place to work in finance. They were totally fine with women on full suits and ties 10 years ago so I imagine they are accommodating gender fluidity well today.

      1. Maggie*

        There’s a pretty big area between being OK with women wearing suits and referring to someone by the pronouns sea/seas/seaself

    10. endlessscroller*

      Unfortunately, I really can’t see the finance sector (at least in my city, NYC) being particularly supportive of neo-pronouns at this point. Maybe I’m wrong, but as someone who is also graduating college next month and who goes to a school where about half of people are going into finance careers at very prominent financial institutions, the industry is slow to adapt, even tho NYC is generally pretty accepting.

    11. BB*

      Nonbinary here, also with two sets of pronouns (they/them and ze/zir/zirs) in a fairly progressive city and profession (education). Don’t use the neopronouns at work – just getting people to use they/them will be a daily issue. Just speaking from my own experience, having different professional and personal pronouns could also serve as good mental “boundaries” between your professional and personal life.

    12. Loredena*

      You might have to do a little teaching if you opt for neo-pronouns, so I suppose think about whether or not you are comfortable with that. (For context, I am a cis woman who has been putting my she/her pronouns in my sig to normalize that, but had never heard of neo-prononouns until your letter. I think it’s a stretch to expect most to recognize that even if comfortable with using they/them)

    13. TheFrenchImpaler*

      I unfortunately don’t have much advise, but I had never heard of neopronouns before, and I wanted to thank you for teaching me something today! I had heard of non-binary pronouns, but the term itself was new, and I had no idea there were so many.

      I consider myself fairly progressive, but evidently I need to read less nineteenth-century literature and get out of the house more (safely/virtually, of course!)

    15. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      Many offices are pretty comfortable with they/them pronouns. Your best bets are very large companies that see DEI as part of corporate culture and very small companies with a queer/trans focus. I’ve had pretty good luck getting people to use they/them in both of those settings over the past ten years.

      Neopronouns are a harder sell, unfortunately. Maybe once the New York Times writes about them, it’ll be easier. I feel like the first NYT article on singular they marked a major shift in people being willing to accept and use it. Hang in there—the culture will catch up!

      As for how to find a company where they’ll be accepted, one option is to put them on your resume and LinkedIn, sign your cover letters “Sincerely, Crystal Waters (they/them)”, and otherwise be up front about it. Places staffed by bigots won’t interview you—problem solved. Another option is to ask in interviews about companies’ DEI efforts or whether there’s an LGBTQ ERG, which are perfectly ordinary things to inquire about. And look on Glassdoor for info on the corporate environment and how trans-friendly it is or isn’t.

  15. Thoreauvian*

    I have a skill that isn’t common. I work as a freelancer in this skill (though not exclusively, because jobs are few and far between). When I do these jobs, I’m paid well. I mean, very well. I mean, if I had regular jobs using this skill, not only would I be able to rely just on that income, but I’d be making a LOT of money to save.

    I got an email a few months ago, from someone at a company I contacted in the past. I offered my skill to this company, and got the usual lukewarm response. This employee, though, sounded very interested in my skill. The person asked me if I’m still in [my location], and if I’m not, would I be willing to relocate? This all sounded very good to me. Then came the killer question:

    How much would I charge per hour?

    I thought about it. I thought about the rate offered by another client. I thought about jobs I’ve done in the past. One job paid me by the unit rather than by the hour. And they paid a lot.

    So after thinking about it, I replied that I would charge [very large sum indeed] per hour.

    I haven’t heard anything from the person since then.

    Did I ask for far too much? Should I email the person again and pretend that I wrote the wrong amount by accident, and reduce the price per hour to one-tenth of what I asked? [Even one-tenth of the amount is still far above the minimum wage here, but the cost of living is far too high to survive on minimum wage.]

    What is to be done?

    1. Fabulous*

      I would probably reply explaining how you’re normally paid (stipend, unit, or whatnot) and explain how you came to the number you did, but that you’d be open to negotiating if they had something different in mind.

    2. StudentA*

      I don’t understand why you would email and pretend you wrote the wrong amount. You wrote that amount because you knew that’s what you are worth. There is nothing wrong with that.

      If anything, just email after some time and “check in” like you would with any other contact. Be confident in your proposal. You’re good at what you do, aren’t you? OK, then. No backpedaling!

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yeah, you have to be confident in what you asked for. If you go back now and pretend it was a “mistake” or “joke” will look really poorly.
        I absolutely get it though! I feel crazy asking for consulting fees because they seem really inflated compared to regular employee rates, but people who use consultants know how it works. I assure you that you didn’t shock them or offend them, unless they thought they were going to get you cheap. And in that case, you prop don’t want to work with someone who wants a cheap deal.

    3. Weekend Please*

      I wouldn’t say you asked for too much if that is the going rate. But I do think it sounds like you are far outside their budget. I think that the chances of getting this client are slim. The company was not that excited about your services and this one employee probably won’t change their mind, especially since you are expensive. It has been a few months so they have likely taken the project in a different direction now. You could reach out and ask if they are still interested and let them know your rate is negotiable and that you are also open to charging by unit instead of by hour. But I have inquired about services in the past that ended up being more expensive than I thought and I just found another way to get the end result I needed.

      I don’t think you want to suddenly slash your rate by such a large amount for one potential client. If it got around your other clients may start feeling like they are being over charged. Depending on what you do, you may be able to come up with a “budget version” that is faster and less in depth that you could reasonably charge less for. In that case, you could contact them again and let them know about your new offering which may fit their needs.

    4. RagingADHD*

      I wouldn’t reduce your price radically, but if you do a follow up, you could include more information about deriving that number: the going rate for working per job vs. per hour, how many hours an average job takes, and what’s included. Then you can offer to discuss their needs, and see if there’s a way you can maximize their value by including different options or giving a discount for a guaranteed minimum number of hours, that kind of thing.

      There are always lookie-loos when you’re freelancing. People often have no idea what things cost, and you’ll always encounter people with champagne tastes and a beer pocket book who just can’t afford you. It’s part of the business.

      For the long term, you might come up with a range of packages or services that would let you bring people in at a lower price point. Like, if you did pressure washing you could have a set fee for doing just the driveway and front steps, or just the deck. But for the whole house it would be hourly.

    5. TWW*

      If you’re willing to come down to one-tenth of your initial quoted rate, it sounds like you highballed them by *a lot*. I don’t blame them for not responding.

      If someone contacted me for tech writing services, and I said my rate was $200/hour, I’m telling them either, “I don’t want to work for you,” or “I think you’re a sucker.”

      1. Technical Writer*

        …Does this mean you bill your tech writing at $20 an hour? That’s really low.

        1. TWW*

          I don’t do freelance right now, but if I did I would bill $50/hr for the type of work I do.

          I chose the numbers above trying to guess a what OP’s amounts where. $200 would be too high for most writers (unless very specialized), and $20 would be not much above minimum wage.

          If I were hiring a writer, and they quoted either $200 or $20, I would immediately conclude that they weren’t they type of writer I needed.

    6. Yellow Warbler*

      From one freelancer to another:

      If they instantly agree, you didn’t ask for enough money.
      If they take time to think about it and then agree, they will probably be a good client who values your work.
      If they don’t agree, you would have hated working for them. Price nitpickers are never happy.

      DO NOT go groveling back and change your rate, or reply again to ramble an explanation. Stay silent. Be firm and confident in your actions, even if you’re sweating behind the scenes. Wait them out.

      1. Filosofickle*

        +1

        It can be hard to build up a sense of confidence in pricing, especially high pricing. 18 years of freelancing and I still flinch when I give people a number! But this is what my value/skill costs. Most people won’t hire me because of it, and that’s ok. In the future, though, it can be better to provide a range. I typically work on project fees (not hourly rates) and prefer not to give specific numbers until I know what the actual work entails.

        1. ilikecoffee*

          I find this so interesting and don’t have experience freelancing. Why do you charge by the project and not the hour? I thought that there was a risk of clients always wanting additional work and that hourly rates could encourage clients to say “good enough” vs a project fee that they feel comfortable always asking for more? Just curious!

          1. Filosofickle*

            Sure. I do it for a few reasons.

            The primary one is simply a philosophy. Pricing by the hour devalues what I do. I mostly work on high level, strategic projects that cost tens of thousands at least. My work is not about time. It’s about the thinking and the output. Whether it takes me an hour or a hundred hours, the value to them is the same.

            The second is that I find negotiations about money very stressful. We do it once upfront, then drop time and dollars from our conversations so we can focus on what matters. I never have to justify how long something did or didn’t take.

            Third, I can charge more. Think of it this way — when you hire a home contractor, aren’t you always a little afraid they’re going to nickel and dime you? That they’ll lowball the estimate and then give you a surprise bill? I learned early on (when I was a graphic designer) that I could charge more upfront as long as they had peace of mind that I wouldn’t blow up their budget.

            A few things, though. You HAVE to charge high for this to average out. Sometimes you’ll be under and some over but you absolutely have to come out ahead a good part of the time or this doesn’t work. Even more critical, you have to set clearly defined limits on the project scope — X number of revisions, X number of weeks/months, X deliverables — with the ability to charge more if things expand or go sideways.

            There are definitely exceptions, for either bigger or smaller work. I’m doing some work for a client right now and he wants me to write his website. Copywriting is fiddly and has lots of moving parts, not something I’m going to commit to a project fee. I think we’ll end up structuring it as a bundle of hours for the basics + hourly beyond that. I also run into really big projects that are almost impossible to envision in advance and I have a few options there. My favorite is to only commit to a small project upfront to get started and learn what’s needed, and at the end we’ll scope the rest.

    7. BRR*

      “Did I ask for far too much?” We can’t say. Honestly, I’m pretty confused why you’re not sure what to charge; especially since it sounds like you’re reaching out to these companies. If I’m understanding the timeline, you replied to them a few months ago. To be frank, if someone reached out to me months after their last email and offered me the same service at 10% of what they originally offered I would be very wary. That’s an astronomical discount. I would think something is wrong with the work product or wouldn’t trust the person’s judgement.

      You could possibly email again and offer like 5% or 10% lower. But I’d probably forget about this company though and focus on future opportunities.

    8. Thoreauvian*

      Having read your replies (thanks!) here are some answers.

      This potential client is a multinational company with lots of clients of its own. As far as I know, the client itself does not need this particular skill of mine for its own purposes. Its clients, however, do. So it’s not a case of this one client wanting my skill; it’s a case of their clients wanting/needing it.

      One client paid me a damned good amount per unit right from the start. I did a fair amount of work for them, and then the worked tapered off. A few years later, someone from the company contacted me to ask how much I charged per unit. I gave a price that was double what they had paid before. They agreed, and I did more work for them. The original rate per unit that they gave me was more than five times the minimum hourly wage here (gross wage, not net). So yes, people are willing to pay well – and it was their suggestion, not mine, as to how much I would be paid per unit.

      And to Weekend Please – they didn’t contact me for a single project. They wanted to know my rates in order to enter the information in the system. They also wanted to make sure I’m still available as a freelancer (always a bonus, because then they don’t have to hire me as a regular employee and pay taxes and such). It isn’t that they weren’t enthusiastic about me to begin with; they just didn’t have clients who were looking for that particular skill. It’s highly unlikely that word would get around about my rates – generally, people looking for this skill already have a budget that is set, and they ask me if I’m willing to do Project X for Rate Y.

      Raging ADHD – I’m going to have to steal your “champagne tastes and a beer pocket book” comment. That’s great!

      TWW, the rate I gave them per hour is less than I have earned from another client by doing work per unit. I just looked up the rates per hour generally charged for this skill, and it was lower than I thought – but when I went to a website where people with this skill sign up to look for work, the rates there were MUCH more than I had stated to this potential client. So it’s not something that is easy to gauge.

      One thing I did do, after reading the initial comments, was to email this employee (who appears to be in a high management position) and offer to send samples of the work I do.

      1. TWW*

        Translating between an hourly rate and a per unit rate can be tricky.

        My hourly rate is $50, but if I had to quote a flat price for a document that I expected to take a week, I would in some cases charge more than $2000

      2. boo bot*

        If they asked your rate to put it into their system, they might have just entered you into the system and moved on, not realizing you were waiting for a response; they’re probably figuring they will reach out again when they do have something to hire you for.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      A subject near and dear to my heart.

      A friend asked way too little per hour for his work. I suggested a $5/hr raise. He actually could have easily jumped $10/ hr. And we argued, you’d think I had called him a rotten name. Eventually he did increase his rate.

      What happened next was interesting. He ended up getting serious jobs with people who actually made sure he got paid. This was a change. I saw first hand that we can telegraph to others how to treat us by stating our labor rate.
      His previous work was difficult for too many reasons and the icing on the cake came when people tried to avoid paying him. All these problems disappeared once his labor rate went up.

      It’s been a decade now. And my friend is very comfortable saying that he gets 2.5 times what he did when I met him. Just as an aside, he is still well-below going rate. He could increase his rate by 40%.
      He works less now because of the higher rate and he can pick and chose the jobs he wants. Overall, I think my friend is in a bit happier place. I offer to pay his going rate and he knocks $5/hr off whatever his current rate is. We both win.

      Chin up, hold to your rate of pay. It will work in your favor in the long run.

      1. Thoreauvian*

        A big part of my problem is that over the years, either I’ve charged much too little for a lot of work, or I’ve charged too much. So either I’ve been taken advantage of, or the work I did wasn’t worth the money I was asking.

  16. Ask a Manager* Post author

    Hi! I’m planning to do our periodic “how much money do you make?” spreadsheet next week. Some changes this year:

    – I’m asking about gender and highest level of education completed. (I want to keep it simple so I’m not adding some of the other suggested additions but I think these two will be of interest to the greatest number of people.)

    – I’m categorizing industries with a dropdown multiple choice selection so those are more standardized than in years past.

    – Instead of asking for annual salary, I’m asking for total annual income from this job (so including bonuses, overtime, etc.) with a field to provide more context if people want to.

    Anyone see problems with that last one? Last time, when it just asked for salary, there was confusion from some people about whether or not to include bonuses, which can be a sizable portion of compensation. But I want to make sure I’m not introducing different problems by doing it this way. (Really, I think there will probably be some drawback no matter how I do it, at least if I try to keep the survey short and easy to complete, so even if there *are* problems with this format, it still might be the best choice — but I want to make sure I’ve thought it all the way through and won’t have an “oh crap” moment after it goes live.)

    1. Now In the Job*

      Would you be looking for bonus potential, or discreet dollar amount? My company is salary + 20% bonus potential, but only expect to see 17.5% on a good year because nobody gets the full 20%. But there are also years where you might only get 10 or 12%. So it’s a little hard to calculate a discreet amount.

      1. RecoveringSWO*

        Obviously I’m not Alison, but I would prefer what you actually made last year. I’ve been “bait and switched” by a sales commission potential that was very clearly unrealistic once I started working. I wish I had responded by asking for the average annual commission/bonus per employee instead of relying on the potential figure. Also, getting the actual bonus/commission amount for 2020 and 2021 could be useful information for people looking into how the pandemic has impacted compensation in particular industries/occupations.

    2. Tek5508*

      so, instead of saying “$XX.000 annual salary”, I would say “annual income is $XX.000 salary + 2% COL bonus”?

      1. Julia*

        Yeah, country or region should be an item on the list, otherwise you’d get very skewed results.

    4. GG*

      Will you separate out salary and bonus or show it as one number? I got a significant bonus last year due to unusual circumstances that I don’t expect to happen again (it was a stay bonus after half my team left!), and if it was one number I’d feel like I was misrepresenting things.

        1. LK*

          I don’t have a bonuses – but my company earmarks so much money they spend on health insurance for each employee and if we don’t use the whole amount they put the balance into our 401k (split between each paycheck). So I have my base salary and then the additional amount they put into the 401k. I don’t know if this is super unique or if this would be something else others might report on, also.

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Hmmm, I had it combined. Maybe I do need to separate it out — one field for salary, and one for additional cash compensation such as bonuses, overtime, etc.

        1. Ashley*

          I think that would be helpful. To me bonuses and OT are never a guarantee for my income so I never factory them into my budgeting.

        2. cimorene*

          another +1 for keeping them separate. I also am eligible for bonus but its not guaranteed and amount can vary. I would still want to be able to see and compare base salary separately.

        4. e*

          How would you think about including equity and income that vests over longer periods of time? I would suggest public stock grants go in the “additional cash compensation” category (e.g. expected value of risky income) and private equity / carried interest / other in comments, but it can be pretty misleading not to include deferred compensation up front for some very highly paid positions. (Niche concerns, but potentially very meaningful for those who get it.)

        5. Miss Bookworm*

          My bonus has never been consistent. For example for three years it was $2500, then because I questioned my salary one year (I learned someone was making almost $10k more than me with much less experience and no formal education) they gave me an off-cycle bonus of $5k and then a few months later I got another bonus of $5k (plus a really good raise) during my annual review. Since then my raises have varied, one year it was $4k, another year it was $8k. So it definitely varies a lot and not everyone gets one.

        6. Can Can Cannot*

          I’d also suggest breaking out stock. Equity can be tricky to quantify since vesting can take time, so when you earn it isn’t necessarily when you see the value. It might be good to get an average annual number rather than the most recent year. And for equity, it would be good to know if it is a publicly traded company or pre-IPO.

        7. Anonymous Hippo*

          I personally think having the bonus in a separate category is a good idea, and maybe the ability to put a range in that particular field.

        8. Ella*

          I would separate this out – this is really great data for benchmarking salaries, and I think bonuses and other compensation are good data points in themselves, but not super helpful if you’re trying to understand broad salaries in a field based on location and other factors.

        9. Firecat*

          I like this approach.

          My Salary on paper is $73k but with OT and Bonuses is closer to $80k. However they can take away OT and bonus at any time.

          1. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

            Right. I just got a raise according to grandboss (it still isn’t showing in our intranet portal), and my base salary will now be $71,400 while my quarterly bonuses will now bring my total yearly compensation to about $84,600 (up from $82.3ish). Grandboss usually gives me 100% of my quarterly bonuses; however, because of Covid, last year our bonuses were cut significantly (we’re back to getting the full amount should our managers allow it) and I only ended up making $80k instead of my $82k. They could do this again at some point, so I now don’t factor in my bonuses for discussions on salary.

    5. MedGal*

      If you are intending it to be salary negotiation tool, I would keep them as separate questions but all visible at the same time so people know what to include and where.

      1. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

        Agreed, since many companies don’t even offer bonuses (I get them, but I have friends/family who do not).

    6. kittymommy*

      I think that works well actually. Would you also like us to include how much benefits are (health ins, retirement, etc.) to get a total picture?

      1. Llellayena*

        Not everyone will know what the value of their benefits actually is, though a “notes” column that lets you write in the types of benefits you get could be useful for people using this information to negotiate.

      3. Firecat*

        I was going to suggest this as well… While I made more on paper at my old company the out of pocket I paid for benefits was much higher and my insurance was much worse…however quantifying that would be a nightmare.

        Maybe both companies laid $400 a month towards my insurance but if one plan had a higher deductable how would I quantify that as a benefit?

        Then throw in our group auto and home discount insurance plans, the on site consultant who will look up contractors and travel plans for you…and it gets muddy fast!

    7. Fabulous*

      I wonder if it would be beneficial to indicate whether you’re working in the same field as your education. Because I have a Master’s degree in a completely unrelated field to the one I’m working in and I don’t think it affects my salary at all.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Similarly, whether the job actually requires that level of education. I have two masters degrees because I like being in college (I know :P ) but they’re not only not required for my job, but also not for at least two levels up (my boss has an associates degree and my grandboss has a bachelors – my great-grandboss might have a masters but I don’t remember for sure). My counterpart in my role doesn’t have any college education at all, “just” high school and fifteen years of experience.

    8. Llellayena*

      Does the spreadsheet style you use allow you to have a column for “base salary” and “additional compensation” and automatically add them for “total income”? Bonuses and overtime are not going to help people who are trying to compare salaries when their company may not have the same bonus structure or who may not be able to put in overtime (or that much overtime). Also, I know you’re trying to simplify, but location/region/metro area by dropdown menu would be helpful too.

    9. OtterB*

      I agree with the person who suggested one column for base salary and one for additions (bonus, overtime, etc.) Not sure how that works for people who are on commission, though.

      1. Llellayena*

        Either base salary is zero and everything is under additional compensation or the average yearly commission gets put under base salary with anything over being additional. (A notes column, as I suggest elsewhere, could provide a place to clarify if it’s a commission job)

    10. Cat Tree*

      I know you don’t want to make it too convoluted, but could you have two separate columns for base salary and bonuses? The reason is that my bonus isn’t a set number. It starts as a percentage of my salary, but has modifiers (usually increase but could hypothetically be decreased) based on my performance and the company’s overall performance.

      It’s also given once a year, so I don’t factor into my monthly budget. As an example, 100k straight salary and 90k salary plus 10k bonus will affect my budgeting even though the total number is the same.

    11. Em from CT*

      Out of curiosity, would you be asking for highest level of education *in the field you currently work in*, or highest level of education regardless of field?

    12. [insert witty username here]*

      Would it possible to have two columns that sum together for a total? So like a base salary column and an “other” column (bonuses, commission, whatever – but folks would need to put a dollar amount, not a percentage) that add together for total? So people could look either by base salary or by total.

    13. Magc*

      It would be difficult but also incredibly useful if there was a way to indicate benefits: PTO (sick / vacation), paid leave, medical/dental insurance available / cost, retirement matching, &c. Pay alone doesn’t give the full picture.

      Maybe next year?

      1. GS*

        The value of medical benefits would definitely vary by country, since I believe many US health benefits are basically resident rights in many other countries. However, if there’s a country field too this could be separated out.

    14. Coldfeet*

      From a data analysis standpoint – it would be much better to ask two separate questions regarding compensation – 1) annual salary and 2) other bonus or incentive compensation. Since bonuses can fluctuate widely, this will allow people to clearly delineate the two types of compensation. You can also certainly have a calculated column adding the two together. This will be more helpful to people who are using this for salary negotiations/market pay comparisons. It would also be helpful to ask everyone to convert their currency into US dollars, just for consistency’s sake. I still think it will be super easy for people to fill out (gender, edu, industry, salary, bonus) is only 5 questions!

      I would strongly advocate for location, years of experience, and race/ethnicity questions – since issues of equity are at the forefront of salary conversations – but I’m sure you’ve already considered those! 8 questions could still be filled out in 1-2 minutes!

    15. introverted af*

      I love that you’re categorizing industries, super excited for that!

      One thing that I couldn’t do on the old spreadsheet was filter the columns or sort by A-Z/0-100/etc. If you can set it up so that’s possible that would be great. It would be really helpful to be able to filter to just “finance” salaries for example, or at least sort the data so I can find them all at once.

    16. Anonymous Educator*

      Is it possible to ask for the two separately, so we can see the base salary, and then the bonuses/overtime, etc. as a discrete addition?

    17. LDF*

      In my industry, options or RSUs are pretty standard, so would be good to have guidance on how to enter that or not. They’re obviously really unpredictable and spread out over time, but can be a huge source of income so would probably be good to include somehow.

      1. TechWorker*

        I also have a reasonable amount in RSUs but vesting over different periods/worth nothing if you leave before that so q difficult to quantify.

        (My company also did v reduced bonus and no raises/promotions, but is trying to keep us happy by doling out stock RSUs, so this year is possibly not representative anyway…)

    18. TWW*

      Number of hours worked would be interesting (either weekly average, or total for the year).

      I work strictly 40 hours/week (my employer does not authorize OT), but some people are incredulous when I say that because there’s a common myth that jobs like that no longer exist. I, on the other hand, can’t fathom how anyone is OK regularly working 50+ hours/week.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yes, number of hours. My main job is part time. I could really skew the results if I answered these questions and could not indicate PT or number of hours.

    19. Technical Writer*

      Given the state of things for the year, would it be useful to add an extra column for Covid-related stipends or expenses people have received? I received a “set up your home office” budget in 2020 that is not a normal part of my annual income.

    20. Llama face!*

      Are you looking for gross (what’s on my tax form) or are you looking for what I actually take home? There are a lot of deductions so they differ a fair bit.

      1. BRR*

        I would go with gross because that’s how salaries are usually discussed and deductions are going to vary person to person.

      2. MinotJ*

        I wondered this too. Could you make it obvious that you’re asking for gross? I feel like I’m exaggerating when I say my gross salary – because what ends up in my bank account is waaay less than that. Thanks for doing this, Alison!

        1. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

          Lol, I have that same problem. Like, I don’t possibly make that much – but I do.

    21. FD*

      Personally, I’d say wages (salary or base pay + OT) could be one thing but bonuses should be separated because bonuses aren’t guaranteed. It’s a huge difference between making $50k as a guaranteed base and up to $20k extra if the business performs well and making $70k as a guaranteed base.

    22. BRR*

      The only potential problem I could see with the last one is people being unsure of what to put if their bonus/overtime varies year to year and if it was substantially lower in 2020/2021. I think instructions that clarify “2020 income even if it was lower” or whatever should help.

      For the first one, what about listing race as well?

    24. Emmie*

      It would be helpful to separate salary and bonus into two columns. (You could even have a columns for salary, and for total compensation then let bonus auto-calculate with a formula.) The salary piece is helpful because that tells me what range I should target when company’s ask.

    25. Pocket Mouse*

      I’m in favor of splitting out salary (and specifically official salary rather than earned salary, given the past year) versus other compensation.

      Also—forgive me for forgetting if you already do this—can the survey split out profession and sector into separate fields, especially if we can only select one? My profession/role exists in government as well as academia, non-profits, and elsewhere in the private sector, and too often I see ‘government’ lumped in the list with other professions.

    26. part time student*

      Would tuition benefits be covered, too? Personally my salary is on the low end, but my employer is paying for my master’s degree in full. If you add in the cost of tuition then my compensation is actually a little above average, so it’s a very different picture when you add that in! Plus it get taxed as income over a certain amount

    28. Unfettered scientist*

      Alison, are you still going to have a field for position name in addition to industry/field? Broad fields tend to not be super useful in science (e.g., biologist means 20 different things) and specific position names would be way more I think!

    29. Coggleshah*

      I do this type of work and so I understand how difficult it is to get people to categorize themselves. Definitely provide a lot of options on drop down, make text entry exceptionally difficult and limited. I do think you need hours/week as that can skew and perhaps years in field. That and highest educational degree should give you decent scatter plots. It might be interesting to know if people think they are under/overcompensates compared to others with their training, experience etc in their community. Some survey tools are automatically gathering GIS info as well which, depending upon your N can be valuable.

  17. anonymuss*

    I had a phone interview this week for a job with a large genealogy company. I applied thinking from the posting that it was remote (it’s not and I’m not in a position to relocate). We established that in the first five minutes. The HR person proceeded to interview me for 40 minutes _anyway_ and told me basically I need to 1) start charging clients money for the work I currently do for free and 2) perhaps look at leveling up my educational credentials but basically there’s no reason that the 10 years of experience I have as a hobbyist + search angel/and DNA solves I’ve done that I’m not an excellent candidate for them. Oh, and she highlighted my cover letter: “It was so tailored! It explained exactly how your non-genealogy day job intersects with the skills you need, and you addressed the qualifications with examples of cases you’ve solved. Most people send the same cover letter they send to every job.”

    1. JustaTech*

      Well boo on keeping you on the phone forever, but yay for praising your cover letter?

      People are strange.

      1. anonymuss*

        Oh no, I really enjoyed it! Definitely not a complaint at all. I was so pleased she wanted to find out more about what kind of candidate I might be for other things.

    2. Emma2*

      Does the job absolutely have to be in-person? If you are interested and think it could be done remotely, why not send her a thank you email, tell her how interested you are and tell her that, if they would consider allowing someone to fill that position remotely you hope they would consider you. It sounds like she actually thought you could be a good candidate, and you probably can’t lose anything by giving it a shot (I would probably acknowledge that they are looking for someone who can be in the office, and not go overly pushy, but just put it out there in case it makes her reflect on it again).

      1. anonymuss*

        It seemed like that wasn’t in the cards at the top of the conversation. I.e. this (giant, uh really really big) company never hires Assistant Level Whatever position as remote, the team wants them onsite for training/observing their work, but higher level roles they do allow remote hires for. I wish, though!

  18. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    Latest confusing work thing- let’s have ” fun” and meet our coworkers. We’re having a picnic today and I said I’d come( regretting that now- I overslept and I actually have something tonight so I can’t work as late as I should) and next week, we’re going out for a happy hour? I’m like do these people not get stressed out by the work that’s piling up while we make small talk? ( and I gotta make up some normal sounding stories too and that’s a bear)

    1. Web Crawler*

      I’m with you- making up normal sounding stories is stressful. And when I try to make my life sound SFW, people ask questions about it and I freeze up.

      Like, on weekends I do “jail support” for people getting arrested at (usually illegal) protests. And I run a tabletop RPG game, but the system is called “Thirsty Sword Lesbians”. And I’m in a poly relationship. So my normal stories are limited to hiking and my cats.

      1. Calliope*

        Do you work in a super conservative place? Because volunteer work with people who are arrested and a game night with friends, where you may or may not go into the details of the game, seems like pretty normal things to talk about.

      2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        I wish I could play Thirsty Sword Lesbians but I have no one to play it with. The big irony is with the pandemic and my job knocking out all my free time- I don’t even have hobbies to talk about!

    2. Generic Name*

      Maybe think of a few “safe” hobbies/topics to discuss with coworkers? I’m a pretty mainstream person I guess, but even I have a handful of topics in my back pocket I know that nearly everyone in my area can carry on a conversation about (I’m a woman, and my 3 topics are kids, dogs, and hunting). Or maybe pick a part of an offbeat hobby that is safe for work to discuss. Like say you keep a greenhouse of poisonous/deadly plants (hey, they’re cool!) but you could discuss generic “gardening” with folks. Or you paint erotic dino-art and you could discuss your “painting hobby”.

      1. Web Crawler*

        Question- what do you do in that situation if somebody’s also into gardening and they ask you which plants you’ve been growing? This is where I tend to stumble, because gardening is such an innocuous topic that people don’t think twice about asking specific questions, and all attempts to change the subject or redirect the question come off really weird.

        1. Nettie*

          Unless you’re growing illegal drugs, you could probably just answer the question honestly. Most people may not have even heard of the plants you’re growing and are just asking to be polite. You raise a good point though, it’s a bad idea to bring something up if you wouldn’t be willing to answer a follow-up question.

        2. RagingADHD*

          You do exactly the same as for any topic on earth – give a generic answer and ask them about themselves.
          So the poisonous plant greenhouse might be “I like to collect plants I’ve read about in books” or “mostly exotic ornamentals”. And if you actually collected them, there would surely be a way to talk about individual specimens without bringing up the common thread if you didn’t want to, like “Oh, I’m very proud of my oleander this year, it’s blooming better than ever.”

          Or with the dinosaurs, it would be “Oh, I paint miniature figurines.”

          The key thing is “how about you?” The easiest and most pleasant way to avoid questions is to be the questioner. Most people like talking about themselves, and like people who demonstrate interest in them.

          1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

            That’s true. I actually went to the picnic and everyone was so busy soothing my boss about her purse being stolen and my boss’ boss about the food taking forever I mostly made a few comments here and there and was able to leave.

        3. GS*

          “I like the really exotic ones such as (use brief boring jargon/terminology that only people familiar with the hobby would know, such as the latin name of a plant or “games with story-based consensual resolution mechanics”).” This usually bores people who don’t care, so they start to talk about other things. On the off-chance the co-worker is also into the same thing, they’ll let you know and you can talk freely.

      2. Zephy*

        If you’re an artist that posts your art on the internet, and you have even the tiniest qualm about family or coworkers seeing your art for whatever reason (maybe it’s got dicks in it, maybe you just don’t want to cross the streams of meatspace/cyberspace), you should probably never mention it and not attach your real name to your art. You can’t unring that bell – if you mention you do a creative thing and publish it somewhere, someone IS going to Google you and try to find that art/writing/whatever.

    3. Nettie*

      Obviously everyone is different and you don’t have to find it fun, but it’s a little concerning to see you put “fun” in quotes like this. Many people genuinely DO find it fun to get to know colleagues in a more relaxed environment. And making small talk instead of working every minute is actually healthy and appropriate.

      Maybe I’m misunderstanding and these are mandatory events, which would be weird. But if they’re not, you can skip them or just make a brief appearance to say hello if you don’t enjoy them. In my experience some people tend to talk less about themselves and it’s not seen as strange unless that person generally comes off as unfriendly.

      1. peasblossom*

        Yes, perhaps I’m misunderstanding things, but a picnic and happy hour sound very normal. It’s ok if you don’t like those things! But they aren’t inherently strange or unbearable.

        As someone who is highly introverted but works in a career where I have to perform extroversion routinely, I like the advice above about cultivating some go to talking points. It’s work to build them up at the start, but there’s huge pay off for this down the line as it makes events like these easier (and, honestly, more enjoyable), and I’ve found that it can make the rest of my day-to-day work better (people get to know me and are more willing to go out on a limb for me or collaborate or put my name up for awards/bonuses/promotions).

        1. Nettie*

          Yes, I totally agree with your comment! Also, while I sympathize with the concern about needing to come up with work appropriate talking points, I think people sometimes overthink it and believe they need to come up with a whole fake life they can discuss at work. That’s really not the case. I don’t know much about what my coworkers do outside of work, instead our small talk tends to be like “oh did anyone else see that interesting article in [magazine]” or “I just saw this really fun movie.” I guess if you exclusively read and watch NSFW content that could be an issue, but I think most people would have something that’s fine to discuss at work.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            I realized a while ago that I could talk about the documentaries I’m watching on TV or articles in history magazines, and substitutes nicely. That’s my go-to when I realize I’ve been babbling too much… some fun fact and then a question veering off away from it. “I started watching a TV show about archaeologists building a medieval castle in modern France, and now I keep thinking about travel. What’s the coolest place you’ve ever been?”

        2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

          It’s normal, but like it’s ” normal ” to enjoy watching football and I don’t like that either. It’s like if a bunch of football fans decided to ” improve morale” by getting us tickets to the big game without realizing that the game wasn’t accessible to people with disabilities and that going to the game us cutting into work time because there’s too much work!

      2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        It’s just that I’m like I gotta work til 9 instead of 8 to make chit chat? What am I not getting done this month to have this fun? I’m going, but it’s just like why? We don’t have time.

        1. Nettie*

          It sort of sounds like the real issue is you’re overworked in general (either you, meaning your team, or just you) and the social things are a red herring. Like if you have so much work to do that a happy hour cuts into the time you would normally be working late and causes work to pile up, that’s a problem no matter how much you do or do not enjoy the happy hour.

          1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

            Yea, I was really annoyed that we have so much work and they are trying to cheer us up with socializing, but that doesn’t help the too much work.

            1. Quinalla*

              Yeah agreed that your annoyance is probably more from being overworked than the actual event. I get that, there should be some thought put into when social events are planned.

      3. Workerbee*

        There is still generally a veneer of professionalism that can be as wearing on the psyche as Zoom calls, I’ve found.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      It is extremely normal to have social activities with coworkers. You don’t have to attend if you don’t want, but it may impact the way they view you. I say this an an introvert who hates this stuff, but does it anyway for the sake of my reputation.

    5. Filosofickle*

      Do you have to attend both the picnic and the happy hour? Maybe if you just did one it would feel less daunting.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        Yes, I’m at the park for the picnic now but I can’t find anyone so I’m just going to go home, having only wasted a lunch breaks worth of time. I may be too busy for the happy hour too- it’s on the last day before our deadline- i.e. time when I should be working

        1. Malarkey01*

          Is it that you have a different workload or deadlines than others at work so others might not realize “oh this is closing weekend of course Stuck and her coworker can’t come” or is it that you think everyone should be busy? If it should be everyone you might want to look at why you’re the only one who feels like they should be working and don’t have time for a happy hour.

          It may not be the case for you, but we had someone on my team that was always stressed and would say she didn’t even have time to get a drink of water or lunch and resented all of us for going to a normal lunch break. In actuality she was putting way more pressure and different expectations and it was a matter of helping her figure out what was overwhelming and readjust. Might not apply to you though.

          1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

            Thinking about it- everyone has a different workload, but end of the month documentation is the same. Also everyone’s speed is different- Ive timed myself doing some of my tasks and for the same task,, it’ll be anything from 15 minutes to a whole hour. I can see a lot of variation happening between people. I might not be the only one who is pressed for time at this time of the month,either.

  19. Ya Girl*

    What do you guys do with downtime at work? My workload heavily depends on other people (I’m the person who schedules tea pot paintings, but I have to wait for the specific teapots to be crafted before I am able to schedule them correctly), and there aren’t really trainings that are appropriate for my type of position. I am in school so I do sometimes do coursework on the clock, but I feel guilty about it. I truly don’t want to be a slacker, I have just literally done all I can do sometimes.

    1. JustTellMe*

      In the past things I’ve done when I had more time: Work on a process to make it more efficient, organize electronic and physical files / purge files that are past their record retention date, ask others if you can take something off their plate and help with it.

    2. Web Crawler*

      I do non-work things. I justify it by the fact that my work uses a lot of my brain, and I think better when I’m relaxed and comfortable.

      I often read a book in short bursts while waiting for my code to compile.

      2. Nacho*

        Same. I work in customer service, and I can tell you my people skills are a lot better when I’m happy and entertained than when I’m bored.

      3. TheFrenchImpaler*

        This is what I do too when I can. My natural work cadence is very burst-y, which was great in school, but has been a bit of an adjustment in entering the office job world.

      4. SophieChotek*

        Yes I do too. I also have a few random, endless back-burner projects that I will work on sometimes too; I’m in a very very slow period right now and my boss knows this; I literally could do all my work for a week in 1 day and he’s okay with me doing other stuff as long as I’m discreet about it

    3. Ashley*

      I read AAM a lot. On the more productive side I have gone around and asked co-workers if there was anything they needed help with while I was waiting on X.

      1. Ya Girl*

        It’s a little tricky since I’m non-clinical staff in a medical setting, so I’m not qualified to do much that isn’t already my job. I think that’s where I struggle, I see people around me hustling but there isn’t anything I can do to help them out.

    4. Kiitemso*

      Things I have done to kill time: write up instructions/manuals for processes to help people during my vacations when they cover me, do something related to some task I very rarely have to do to further familiarize myself with the process. And if push comes to shove, I will read news online.

    5. Nacho*

      I browse Askmanager (and other websites). For instance, I started work 20 minutes ago, and here I am.

      There’s nothing to feel guilty about. Your work pays you to be there if needed because that’s important. Even if you’re not doing anything productive half the time, the fact that you could be if something came up, and that you’re available right away, without any kind of delay, is worth the salary your work pays you.

    6. LKW*

      I go to relevant organization websites and read documentation. Study up on standards and white papers. Take additional training. And I offer up my time if there are small projects or internal activities that can use some support.

    7. Sunflower*

      Listen to podcasts, plan vacations, budget finances, work out, do a yoga class, clean the house, run errands, things like that. I never feel bad about it, as long as my work is done, I keep my laptop close by so I can check email/teams messages every 20 min or so.

    8. Nettie*

      We all read the news a lot. At least in my job, staying on top of cultural matters is informally considered part of the job. So it’s totally typical for people to openly read the paper.

      My rule of thumb is only do stuff with downtime where I would feel comfortable saying to my boss “oh, I was just reading X in Y.”

    9. Technical Writer*

      What I actually do: background research for my creative writing. For example, I was recently working on a story that required a lot of knowledge about concrete and cement (my antagonist is a serial killer using it to hide victims) so I read up on how they are made/different formulas.

      What I should do: learn coding languages and make my skillset more competitive.

      1. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

        I’m teaching myself product/food photography and editing at the moment since I think I want to get into a more design focused role down the line.

    10. Lemon Zinger*

      I work in higher ed, so I read the Chronicle of Higher Education and InsideHigherEd a lot. Staying on top of industry-specific news is really valuable.

      1. Camelid coordinator*

        That is what I read, too. And our student newspaper when I get a chance. It is surprising what I learn from that source.

    11. allathian*

      I’m rarely completely out of work, but until early this year I had an important but not urgent project that I worked on whenever I had some extra time. My org is also really good about understanding that people in knowledge work can’t be fully productive all the time.

      I work in bursts too, and my favorite thing to do between bursts is to come here, but I also read our intranet to keep up with things. I also do trainings when I can.

  20. TWW*

    I had a promising initial interview the other day for a job that I think I would be perfect for. I’m keeping my fingers crossed, but in the meantime coming to work every day at my current job has become almost unbearable. How do you simultaneously feel enthusiasm for a prospective job while not checking out from your current job? And if I don’t get an offer, how do I get me head back into the game at my old job?
    Having to suffer through this dilemma every time make me want to give up job hunting. Words of wisdom please!

    1. Nikki*

      I think Alison’s advice about this kind of thing is great. She always says that once you’ve applied for a job or had an interview, tell yourself you didn’t get the job and put it out of your mind. If they get back to you, it’s a nice surprise, but otherwise you’re not torturing yourself agonizing over what’s going to happen next. Easier said than done, of course, but as you can see from your struggle with this, it’s not doing you any good to spend so much mental bandwidth fretting over it. That said, I hope you get an offer soon!

      1. Chantel*

        Seconding, and also, keep searching hard. The couple of times I’ve been absolutely miserable at jobs, knowing that there is another horizon to work toward did wonders for helping me get through it. Create a long view for yourself and remind yourself as much as you need to that there is light at the end of the tunnel you’re in now. Cliched, yes, but in my experience, it works!

    2. Joan Rivers*

      I suggest letting yourself feel proud that you did all you had to do to apply for that job, and just relax a little in the job you have. Slow down a touch — don’t put your feet up on the desk but pretend you like your job and do what you can get away with doing that will help you dislike it less. Think of ways to be good to yourself that won’t get you fired.
      Keep looking at jobs, and know that the process you just had may help you w/insights for the next one. Good luck!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Look around for really great things to do at this job which would be perfect to discuss on an interview. Then do those things.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      All of the above, especially to keep job hunting. I will add, take some time at work to document your process, clean up your archives, and if you are on site, start bringing home some of your stuff. (At this point if anyone asks, you’re just cutting down on things to clean in covid.)

  21. Professor Plum*

    I just saw a job listing for 30 hours/week that includes benefits—in a field that aligns with my skills. This sounds like exactly what I want—I’ve done the 40++ hours per week as a manager and don’t want that any more. I’ve been freelancing for a while after not working because of caretaking, but realistically need more than what I’m earning now.

    How much do I emphasize in my cover letter that part time plus benefits, as an individual contributor, is a major appeal for me at my current life stage?

    1. BusyBee*

      I would say that highlighting that only makes sense if you think your previous role/qualifications would make you a bit overqualified for this role. For instance, you’re currently managing a team of 10, and this is an individual contributor role with less responsibility. In that case, I do think it’s mentioning why that appeals, but really focusing on the work itself vs. the schedule.

      1. Cj*

        I agree. The advice here is usually to use the cover letter to tell them why they should want you, not so much why you want to work there.

    2. Fabulous*

      Maybe like this:

      After working as a manager, I understand now that my strengths more align as an individual contributor. And after working long hours, often upward of 40 hours, a 30-hour week excites me!

      1. Firecat*

        Hmm. In my experience the 30 hour a week schedules are often the worst of both worlds. It’s not part time enough to feel rested, and often times you don’t have a set schedule either.

        My spouse quit his 30 hour a week job because it was just taking up way more then a full time job would between alternating nights and weekends and never knowing when he was going to have a 8 hr or 12 hr day. I remember one terrible week he was scheduled Fri- Sun full time and was supposed to work either Tues or Thurs half time. We scheduled something for us on Wednesday since Thursday – Sunday was essentially blocked by his part time job. Well they called him in Wednesday. He worked a full 8 hrs so they took him off the schedule for Thursday – too late for us to plan anything and refused to budge on the weekend hours “those are your core hours!!”. Well Friday and Saturday was busy so he worked over and they sent him home after 1 crappy hour on Sunday after we had declined all plans because they didn’t want him to be classified as full time.

        1. Professor Plum*

          Thanks. Will definitely be asking about scheduling of those 30 hours if I even get an interview.

    3. Alexis Rose*

      I don’t think you need to emphasize it, just state it normally. Like ‘A .75FTE position is exactly what I’m looking for.’ We recently posted a .5FTE position and only one person mentioned in her cover letter that those were actually her preferred hours, so it made her stand out. She didn’t even give a reason, but it was reassuring to know she wasn’t going to jump ship for a full-time gig if it came along.

      1. Joan Rivers*

        Yes! Sometimes the hours or whatever are exactly right for someone’s life. They can put up with a lot to get such a good fit.

      2. TWW*

        This seems right to me–keep it positive.

        Otherwise you risk saying something to the effect of, “I know you think I’m a bad fit because [insert not-that-bad reason], but I’m not!”

        It’s tempting to preemptively address your own (perceived) red flags in a cover letter, but the risk is that you put up red flags that would otherwise have gone unnoticed.

    4. Nettie*

      I’m not sure I would mention it. Those are the hours they’re offering, so I think they would assume that anyone who applies wants to work those hours. Focus more on why you want this particular job than the hours, I think.

      1. AcademiaNut*

        I think I would mention it. For less than part time hours, particularly a bad job market, it’s not unusual for people to apply for the part time job when they really want full time, keep looking, and bail as soon as they find what they want (ditto for applying for jobs they are over qualified for, or well out of their previous job areas). The motivation is understandable – some work is better than none – but it’s not in the employer’s best interests. So mentioning that you specifically are looking for less than full time work could give you a boost to the interview stage over similar applications.

    5. Professor Plum*

      Thanks for all the suggestions—you’re helping me to not overthink—which is my default!

    6. BRR*

      I wouldn’t emphasize it and probably wouldn’t mention it at all unless you’re resume means you need to throw in a few words indicating you know it’s 30 hours. Saying you’re interested in a roll because it’s part-time plus benefits doesn’t strengthen your candidacy. Mention what interested you about the position’s responsibilities and focus on what makes you stand out as a candidate. Good luck!

    7. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Is it hourly? If it’s salary but with a 30 week expectation, and paid accordingly, be careful that a “part time” job doesn’t just become full time for less pay…

      1. Professor Plum*

        From the job listing I believe it’s hourly. Lots to discover if I get an interview.

  22. Green Snickers*

    I’m wondering if anyone works at a company outsourcing their support services to clients?

    I work for a professional services consulting firm- imagine Big 4. I work in a support role in our marketing department doing events. Part of our new business model is selling our support services to clients- for example, my team would plan an event for a client that doesn’t have an events team and the client would pay the firm X. So far, any proposal for my team have been too expensive for the client but I understand some other teams such as Professional Development and Graphic Design are executing contracts.

    My understanding is this would be part of our roles and we would not receive additional compensation. I’m not sure how to feel about this as we’re frequently told the reason we aren’t paid as much as those that bill is because we aren’t working directly with clients. Also, my team is only 8 people so taking on a client project would take a decent chunk of our resources.

    I’m wondering if anyone works at a company that does this and how it work? Do you think that structure is fair?

    1. RagingADHD*

      I currently work with an agency that does flat-fee services for clients, and my hours (or an allowance for average expectations for my hours) are built into that fee. When I worked for firms that did hourly billing, our support hours were also built into the billing rate.

      But in neither case do we bill clients for our hours directly, because adding more support hours doesn’t change the rate charged to the client. It just ate into the profit margin.

      Unless of course, the scope of the project expanded beyond certain milestones. Then they add an upcharge to cover the additional hours. But my rate stays the same. That seems normal to me.

      If you’re getting more duties added to your role, or a heavier workload, they are either going to have to add resources (like another person on the team) or pay overtime. You could ask for a raise if it’s a significant addition to your job.

      But I don’t think there’s an assumption that you should become billable or automatically get paid more because the service model changed. Your employer has always done things for clients and charged them money — and your hours have always been part of the overhead. That’s not changing.

    2. Consultant*

      Consultant here (at a smaller, scrappier company), and I’ve seen this happen a few times.

      For example, if an engagement has a communications component, we’ve occasionally asked our internal comms folks to bill some hours to support that. Generally it’s on the internal comms person to set clear boundaries around what they will and won’t be responsible for, the number of hours they’re limiting themselves to each week, what *won’t* get done in their day job as a result, etc. The person I’m thinking of who set those boundaries has a lot of clout and is able to be firm about their limitations without repercussion, but that’s obviously not the case for anyone.

      I honestly think it’s a lose-lose situation – the internal comms person is pulled away from the job they actually want to do and feeling overextended/underappreciated, while the client-facing team is not getting the amount of support they actually need.

  23. Newbie*

    I’m in the third month of an internship and one of my fellow interns, Tom, has repeatedly pronounced my name incorrectly in Zoom meetings. When we started he pronounced my name correctly but over time he started pronouncing it wrong (not sure why the change??) It will always happen in this context: us interns get pulled into a meeting , we all sit there on mute, nodding along and unmuting when necessary. Tom, will then be asked a question about our intern project and he will unmute and say “oh yes me and *incorrect pronunciation of my name* have been doing x, y, and z”. I have not jumped in to correct him bc it seems awkward when I’m on mute and he’s addressing other people. A few weeks ago in an intern check in with my boss, she stopped me to ask how to pronounce my name bc she had her someone pronounce it differently (TOM!) and wanted to have it right. I Told her she was correct and pronounced it clearly (tom and another intern were also on this call so he 100% heard me say it). That was a few weeks ago and he still says it incorrectly despite EVERYONE else pronouncing it correctly. We have less than a month left in our internship, do I just let it go?

    1. Tek5508*

      NO!. You need to politely but firmly tell Tom that he is mispronouncing your name.

      It is either blatant disrespect or a power play on his part

      1. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

        Yeah, at this point, he’s doing it on purpose and it’s disrespectful as hell.

        1. Firecat*

          Ehhh.

          Some folks have a weird muscle memory issue with that. Or a problem with their brain that makes it so that once wrong info gets in their it’s prioritized.

          I have that issue with homey and homely. I can never get it right no matter how many times it’s said so I just don’t use those words anymore.

          I’m like that with names too. Once I get a wrong pronunciation in their, even if know the new one, it’s like the moment I start to say the right name my brain goes ABORT wrong pronunciation now!

          It’s also completely feasible that Tom didn’t hear this exchange where you corrected everyone’s pronunciation. There are plenty of distractions that can crop up on a zoom call that impacts your ability to hear a meeting. The fact that Tom had made a point of naming you and giving you credit leads me to believe he’s a decent person and not purposefully saying your name wrong. So many people don’t bother to give anyone credit on shared work that it stands out to me as a sign of integrity on the workplace.

          1. pancakes*

            Yes – I’m generally pretty good with names but always have a hard time with Kristin and Kirsten, for some reason. I’ve known both over the years, and I know my brain is going to stumble on either.

    2. CatCat*

      I’d have an individual conversation with Tom about it so he has a chance to correct himself.

      “Tom, you may not realize, but you’ve been pronouncing my name incorrectly. You’ve pronounced it as X, but it’s actually pronounced Y. I and others have noticed this so I wanted to let you know.”

      I definitely would not assume something rude or malicious on Tom’s part here. Just a simple and correctable mistake. He may not realize he’s doing it.

      (My own name has multiple possible pronunciations. I find well-meaning and polite folks will slip on this and sometimes start defaulting to a different pronunciation than I use.)

      1. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

        He knows he’s doing it – OP said he pronounced her name right the first time he said it and he’s heard multiple people pronounce her name correctly at this point.

        1. CatCat*

          My literal EXACT experience with this issue is folks not realizing they’re doing it.

          But assuming instead that OP’s colleague is just a dick, how would your advice differ?

          1. Chantel*

            Same here, CatCat. My experience, as well, so I generally give this kind of thing the benefit of the doubt.

        2. I'm A Little Teapot*

          I have a neighbor who’s name is “Apple”, but I’m almost positive she pronounces it “App-lei”. As an example. I simply can’t remember, and I’m getting messed up by the normal pronunciation of apple. It’s not deliberate. I’m avoiding calling her by her name out loud.

          Don’t attribute to malice what simple error can account for – until and unless you have evidence it’s malice.

    3. Cat Tree*

      It’s definitely weirder over Zoom, but I think you should make a quick, polite comment in the moment. “Oh, it’s Saaa-ra not Sah-ra” is plenty polite. It’s hard when you’re young and an intern but you deserve to have your name pronounced correctly. It doesn’t have to be a big deal, and if he seems miffed that is on him.

    5. Alexis Rose*

      Definitely say something politely but firmly. This is weird and for sure rude but I wouldn’t assume it’s a power play. Some people have really low phonological awareness and don’t necessarily pick up on the difference between how they’re pronouncing it and and how others pronounce it.

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        This is me! I’d never heard the term “low phonological awareness” before, but I am so going to use that. I just don’t pick up well on things that I hear — can’t discern song lyrics, can’t pick up on anything but the base meaning in what I hear, and I struggle even with that unless they speak like an NPR newscaster and often miss out on group announcements unless something is done to draw my attention. I have to strain to glean the meaning when someone is speaking, I absolutely am not going to pick up that they are pronouncing their name differently in a group setting (particularly a work one where my brain is straining to pick out the critical “to do” information. However, if someone takes me aside and says “oh, by the way, it’s pronounced Ahn-DRAY-ah” I will definitely remember that and pronounce it correctly going forward. And it needs to be said to me directly. In a group setting I might miss it unless someone says “Here is an important announcement”

      2. Loredena*

        This is me! I tend to put the accent on the wrong syllable, and I’m poor with names to being with – and once I’ve done it a few times I can’t keep straight the correct pronunciation. It’s worse with a coworker whose name is routinely pronounced differently by different people in the office. She once told me it’s pronounced the same as an actress, which might have worked out better if I’d been sure about the actress’s name…

        It’s embarrassing enough that I rarely directly use her name, I promise I’m not doing it on purpose! {I do this with a lot of words I originally learned by reading, it’s not just a name problem. But it’s names I’m embarrassed by!}

    6. Helvetica*

      Anecdotal: I have a difficult first name for English speakers – I don’t live in the US but work in English dominated workspace – and I have heard so many variations that I have kinda let it go. This is especially because I have realized that what people hear when I say my name might be very different because their own language and phonetic background influences it a lot. For example, the second letter of my name is “a” but for many people it sounds like “o”, unless I put an unusual for my own language emphasis on the “a” and then they can hear it correctly.
      This is not to say that there aren’t often racial undertones to people mispronouncing names but many people don’t have the ear for phonemes. And in this case, it depends a bit on how differently he pronounces it but I see nothing wrong in you telling him in a kind tone how your name is actually pronounced. Not in a group meeting but one-on-one.

    7. Policy Wonk*

      I’d let it go, since the boss already confirmed the pronunciation. This is making Tom look bad, not you.

    8. Qwerty*

      Tell him! It doesn’t have to big deal. Either in the moment say “It’s AN-drea” or just privately when it’s the two of you “My name is AN-drea not AHN-drea. At some point you switched pronunciations”.

      The why doesn’t matter – Somehow he got the wrong pronunciation stuck in his head and kept using it. Maybe someone was mistaken and informed him to use the wrong, maybe he’s watching a show where the main character has the wrong pronunciation, maybe he just said it accidentally once and it stuck. He is putting zero thought into this but it bugs you, so you get to correct him on saying your name properly.

    9. Anonymous Hippo*

      Some people just get a thing stuck in their heads and can’t get it out. Yes, you can totally correct him, but I personally would let it go. I work with a man right now, who is perfectly kind and nice, and is horrified and apologetic every time someone points out he says my name wrong, and yet, every single time he says my name he says it wrong. It has gotten to the point everyone in the wrong will be it complete stitches when he is talking to me because he just keeps doing it. Nothing wrong with wanting your name pronounced correctly, but you don’t have to get upset about it either if it doesn’t actually bother you.

      1. Joan Rivers*

        Sometimes it’s cause he just doesn’t care. But these days there are lots of individual details that we didn’t used to have to remember about people. Their preferred pronoun is a serious one. But their diet preferences or name pronunciation or preferred form of address, there are more of them than there used to be. We don’t always know the person that well so we have to make an effort to remember. Sometimes someone has more than one of these details, too.
        We need to respect people but I hope someone isn’t offended if those who don’t really know them make a mistake. And to clarify: One’s gender identity is a lot more serious to me than one’s diet even if that person acts like it should be uppermost on my mind.

        1. Firecat*

          Well having the wrong food can kill someone. While being referred to as Ze instead of Sea will not. Your last point comes across as if people who are serious about their safety are somehow being precious.

    10. BRR*

      Having the third party, outside perspective advantage here. You’re over thinking it. When he does it, send him a private IM in the zoom chat or email him with just, “hey by the way my name is pronounced X, thanks!”

    11. *daha**

      The next time someone else addresses you (correctly) in his presence, say “Thank you for getting my name right. *correctname* is correct. Then go on to answer the matter at hand.

      1. Firecat*

        Honestly my thought if you said this to me would be “I’ve been saying the name wrong??? When???” I think this risks a lot of people around the table thinking the person you said that too has been mispronouncing your name. And Tom may not even pick up on it. Best to be direct and polite with Tom.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      Send him an email?

      I had a situation where the leader actually could not say my name. We had another person whose name was similar but had one more letter. Our two names worked into tongue twisters for the entire group because the leader could not say my name without stumbling into the other person’s name.
      I said something once. But I could see that I would just make it worse if I kept mentioning it.

      1. Merry, Mary, or Mari*

        When I was young and dirt was new, a freshman writing class was assigned a TA who could not hear or say the difference between several girl names in the class: Merry, Mary, and Mari. He had to use last names or point. He was US born white guy…just really really bad with names.

        1. Loredena*

          That’s actually a known regional thing, interestingly enough! They are barely different in sound to me.

    13. Zephy*

      Mispronounce his name when you say your goodbyes at the end of the internship.

      Actually don’t, that’s petty as hell, but it’s OK to fantasize about it.

    14. Esmeralda*

      Correct it every single time he mispronounces it. He’s been told. He did it right at first. Either he’s doing it on purpose, or he’s incredibly oblivious, but in either case, he needs to pronounce it correctly. Especially since your manager asked — I think she did it to help you out with this issue. Take her cue!

      Unmute yourself pronto and say, “Just let me pop in to say my name;s pronounced XXX. Thanks!” or “sorry to interrupt, but my name’s pronounced XXX. Thanks!” or “Excuse me, Tom, as I mentioned to Manager-Name the other day, my name’s pronounced XXX. Thanks!”

      Be cheery about it.

      And if he doesn’t do better, I’d be tempted to start calling him TOOM. Or TOE-MASS.

    15. Quill*

      Is he otherwise treating you respectfully and professionally? If yes, then I would let it go.
      If not, then I would focus on trying to resolve the main issue(s).

      signed/someone whose name is often mispronounced.

    16. CatMintCat*

      My name has three possible, widely accepted pronunciations, and is only one letter different from another common name in this area.

      I pick my battles. If this is somebody I am going to be dealing with long-term, then they get corrected until they get the right one. Someone I won’t be dealing with often or for long. Meh, I let it go. I worked once for a man whose wife had the same name, pronounced differently. I lost that battle – he was well meaning, but that pronunciation was engraved on his brain.

      I do wish my mother hadn’t done this to me. Ann is nice, and doesn’t have multiple pronunciations.

      1. allathian*

        I have a similar name, but honestly, I’m not bothered. Maybe it’s because I’m bilingual from birth and learned English as a preteen, and my name exists in all those languages, and it’s pronounced differently in each language, I can deal with different pronunciations without getting annoyed by it.

    17. GirlWithTheMispronouncedName*

      Correct it very matter-of-factly.

      This is the best example of how to neutrally, without assigning motive or intent, to the error.

      From the always brilliant and apropos The West Wing:

      WILL: Excuse me, Josh.

      JOSH: Yeah, you’re Bill Bailey, right?

      WILL: Will Bailey, yeah.

      JOSH: I’m surprised we haven’t met.

      WILL: You’re pretty busy.

      JOSH: We talked on the phone.

      WILL: Yeah. You now, you get a pretty good aerobic workout talking to someone in this
      building.

      JOSH: I’ve heard the jokes. What do you need?

      WILL: Uh, well, I’m working with Toby Ziegler on the Inauguration…

      JOSH: Bill, I know who you are. What do you need?

      WILL: Okay, well, it’s Will and I’m in a legislative section talking about …..

      Matter of fact correction, twice in ten seconds.

      It may be just Hollywood, or the way the characters are written, but I never get the sense that it ever crossed Will’s mind to let Josh keep calling him Bill.

      1. Newbie*

        I’m a west wing super fan! Actually just watched this episode – you’re right it is a polite correction!

    18. Workerbee*

      Correct him each time, politely but firmly. He has a responsibility to remember, just as he does to come in to work, get his tasks done, etc.

      Besides…you may run into him or work with him at other points in your career. Don’t suffer the mispronunciation eternally!

    19. Newbie*

      Thanks everyone for your advice! I think I will say something either directly to him in the Zoom chat or one on one after the meeting and mention it very matter of factly / politely. It is something that has been bothering me every time it happens. Tom has also been slowing down my work, missing deadlines, and promising to finish things that then never end up being finished so I think his incorrect pronunciation of name is just the cherry on top of his missteps in my eyes.

  24. LilyP*

    Hi everyone! I’m a relatively new manager and one of my direct reports recently let me know she’s pregnant and expecting a baby in the fall. I’ve got the basics of leave and coverage handled with HR but I’d love any tips on things to do or not do to support her or advocate for her that I might not think of. Like, is it polite to ask about it or better to not mention it unless she brings it up? If we do gifts or a party should that be right before she goes on leave or earlier? Is there anything you wish your boss had done differently?

    For context, we’re both women in a male-dominated industry, and I do have quite a bit of capital at this company I’d be willing to burn over this kind of stuff.

    1. StressedButOkay*

      Following because I’m in the e x a c t same boat minus being in the male-dominated industry! I’ve been encouraging her to think of how much time she’d like to take, if she’d like to take more than what we offer (using her leave, etc) and if it’s more than what we offer, to let me know, so I can figure out how to have that handled by the company.

    2. Tuckerman*

      Follow her lead. My co-workers threw me a surprise shower, which was really nice because I was new to the area and didn’t know many people, and we were a tight knit group. But I had a co-worker once who was very shy/private about her pregnancy so I made sure to ask, “We’d like to get cake to celebrate your upcoming leave. What do you think?” And she really appreciated the gesture and we had a nice little celebration.

      I’d do the celebration a few weeks early, since sometimes people go out on leave early .

    3. Stratocaster*

      I have been pregnant twice at work, but not managed someone who was pregnant. But here are a few things to keep in mind:

      – Figure out lactation spaces and provide that info to your employee. You do not need to ask her if she’s planning on nursing – just make sure she is aware that lactation spaces are available if she needs one. if there is no lactation space, work with facilities to set one up (it could be her own office, a spare room, etc, just anything non-bathroom with a lock).
      – Treat her like you normally would, and not Super Delicate Pregnant Person Who Might Break Any Moment. It’s fine to ask an occasional “how are you doing today?”, but let her decide how much she wants to share. If she looks like she’s having a really rough day or something, it’s fine to ask, but in general, I appreciated my current boss not making A Big Deal of my pregnancy.
      -Related: my former boss made a lot of really awkward comments during my first pregnancy. I did not ask him about anything, he just launched into Opinions about women’s bodies and breastfeeding and the “best” way to give birth and raise children unprompted, and it was awful. Please don’t share opinions unless asked, especially around sensitive topics.
      – Ask her if she’d like a party or gifts at all! If she would like a party, ask when she’d prefer it happen. Again, follow her lead.
      – If the job allows for it, give her some grace about being on time, especially around doctor’s appts. Some OB/GYNs (like mine) are extremely busy and often called into emergency surgeries, so my appts got really out of whack.

    4. Reba*

      I think you can ask her! Like, “would you like to chat pregnancy updates sometimes, or would you prefer to pretend it’s not happening unless we are specifically discussing leave/accommodations?” “Would you be comfortable having a small party here?”

      Same for the accommodations. There was a letter a while back from someone whose boss had pulled a lot of strings to get the employee a certain amount of leave and other options that the employee did not choose to use, and the manager resented her for it! So I think not making assumptions is the most important thing. You sound like a good boss!

        1. Keymaster of Gozer*

          The ‘how dare she not breastfeed after I told her several times she could!’ bit in that really got me annoyed. By all means, make the facilities available, but remember that each pregnant person’s decisions regarding their pregnancy/birth/post birth/parenting are their own.

    5. JustTellMe*

      During my pregnancies I usually did not want it to come up much at work, as it’s pretty personal and involves intimate things about your body; also you can accidentally tread into “well meaning but actually discriminatory” behavior if you, for instance, insist that she stop doing certain physical aspects of her job to “protect her” or any other job modifications she did not explicitly ask for. As the manager, I think it’s a fine line to walk between showing care for your employee and not delving too much into personal matters. In my experience it’s best to take cues from the employee and not really bring it up unless she does first, unless you have a legitimate reason (work related) to bring it up. For instance, if you notice she looks green in the face and miserable, ask if she’s feeling ok and discuss if she needs time off or any other accommodations. All that said, I think an unprompted “how’s everything going” every now and then is fine, as going too “cold”and completely ignoring the pregnancy would be weird and might give the employee the wrong impression.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        A former boss informed a pregnant employee that a chemical we were working with was rather toxic and she could do something else. Boss provided the MSDS for the chemical. Employee chose to stay put. My boss let it go at that.

        1. InsufficientlySubordinate*

          There was a huge argument about sexism some years back on another board about the boss singling out the one (non-pregnant) woman in a meeting to let her know that a specific chemical could affect a fetus but…it also had unpleasant effects on male reproduction.

    6. Fabulous*

      I’ve been pregnant twice (in 2018 and 2020) and can weigh in on some things. I don’t know your work situation, but my first pregnancy I was SO grateful that my boss finagled a way to get me a laptop computer so I could start working from home. It made life, and going to appointments, so much easier. Since my team was/is all virtual (we work in different offices across the US), we never did a party for either pregnancy.

      I remember doing one years ago for a coworker in a different job though, so it’s probably all dependent on your office’s culture. We basically all chipped in for a carseat and had a mini baby shower for her during lunch before the baby was born.

      Last think I’ll say is my last pregnancy was a bit more difficult so I had A LOT of appointments, like 2-3 a week toward the end. So, just be flexible and understanding that she probably doesn’t have a choice with what appointments she has to go to. Start filtering her work maybe around the 8-month mark and make it easy for her to go out on leave, and try to help reduce stressors as much as possible. It’s no fun trying to work through contractions (which I’ve done)!

    7. Dark Macadamia*

      If your office doesn’t already have a designated place to pump, figure out how you’ll accommodate that. ASK if she expects to need it and DON’T be pushy about how she answers. If she needs it, make sure it’s set up when she comes back to work so she doesn’t have to wait/wonder/ask about it.

    8. lost academic*

      You should both follow her lead and do a little quiet research on your own – for instance, if she is planning to pump at work, she may not realize or have the ability to question or address certain things that might need some lead time to be addressed. Focus on work accommodations for her pregnancy, time off and time back and less so the social aspect of having a baby. Help her schedule work handoffs, meetings and trainings that need to be addressed before she leaves so she isn’t cramming it all in with her regular work in the last month. Everyone’s pregnancy is different, but consider how you might accommodate her need for additional rest in the third trimester and how you can provide a ramp up period on her return. Help her navigate the leave documentation largely by making sure YOU understand it in case she needs help.

    9. Cat Tree*

      I’m pregnant now, and most people (including my boss) just ask how I’m doing or how I’m feeling. It’s open-ended enough that I can answer however I feel comfortable. Sometimes I answer “excited but nervous”, or sometimes more about the physical aspect of it like “so many monitoring appointments but everything is smooth so far”.

    10. FlyingShrimp*

      I’m currently 36 weeks pregnant, and overall have really appreciated that my manager and grandboss really let me take the lead on when I’d tell more colleagues, asking before having a staff celebration and encouraging me to fully disconnect for my full leave. I do wish that they would have initiated more conversations about what my return to work will look like, like about a being able to pump at work (pumping location, blocking time off on my calendar for for that purpose and whether those breaks will be paid or not). Like other’s have said, I’d take your report’s lead on everything, including this, but if that’s something that she’d like to pursue when she comes back to work, I can see that being an area where you could use some capital to help her, especially in a male-dominated industry.

      To answer your specific questions, I was okay with my boss asking generic “how are you feeling” questions that let me share as much detail as I’d like, but not pushing for too many details. We did a staff celebration about a month before my guess date, which seemed to work well timing-wise (I’m planning to work as long as I can).

    11. Professional Nerd*

      I feel like I can speak to this because I just had a baby six weeks ago, so all the “pregnant while working” stuff is fresh in my head, and I had my first child when I was working in a very male dominated industry (I was active duty military). As far as how to support her, just let her know that you do support her 100% and to please let you know if she needs anything. That way she can bring things to you as they come up. Each of my three pregnancies I needed different accommodations and types of support. I wouldn’t do a party but would collect voluntary contributions to a gift card to wherever she’s registered, that way no one feels pressure to contribute, and I’d give it to her during her last week before going on leave. Having a baby shower with my mostly male coworkers would have been really awkward for me.

      The biggest thing my bosses did for that pregnancy and my most recent was just being really flexible with my schedule and duties because of doctor’s appointments and physical limitations (all of my pregnancies have been high risk). And for this last one, they were also extremely understanding of me needing extra precautions because of covid (I’ve been working in person since August).

    12. Cimorene*

      what flexibility can you offer to ease her return to work? when i had my first kid my boss and org were very open and supportive of working from home the first couple of weeks back (this is when i worked an in office job), having a lighter schedule the first couple of weeks. Basically they really recognized how tough the transition can be and were super flexible in letting me ease back. I didn’t end up fully taking advantage of it but it was super nice to know i could. Also, helping think through a transition plan and document that can be shared on who to go to while she is out. Or talking about her preferences on things like whether she wants to be included on emails while she is out. She should certainly be encouraged to be completely off and not check email but some people want to still be cc’d on things that will impact them that they can ready when they do return.

    13. *daha**

      You can start working now to find out which department can requisition the 80 pounds of Tannerite you need for the gender reveal. It isn’t always obvious who can order it for you.

    14. Ranon*

      I would have liked to have had my manager participate in my hand off prep earlier than two weeks before my due date, people have babies a lot earlier than that sometimes and it’s nice to slow transition rather than feel like everyone is in denial that you are going to have this baby and not be there for a while. Around week 30 was when I was ready, took until week 38 or so for my boss to be on board.

      1. Quinalla*

        Yeah, week 30 sounds about right for this prep, agree 100%. I’d talk to her about how she wants you to handle it, but yeah I’d also make sure a place to pump is available as that is often overlooked in male dominated work places.

    15. Policy Wonk*

      Don’t make assumptions or decisions for your employee. Ask what she needs/wants. Don’t presume she can’t do part of her job, or can’t travel, or… Follow her lead. Otherwise treat her like you would any other employee. Plan for her maternity leave as you would for anyone else leaving for a few months for some personal reason.

    16. Double A*

      I’m about 36 weeks pregnant, 2 weeks out from going on leave, and something that’s been helpful for me is discussing coverage and documentation early. I’m now in the home stretch of getting it all finalized, but knowing that I can run it by my supervisor and she’ll give me feedback on it periodically is helpful.

  25. BusyBee*

    It’s been a weird week. I had written in to the open thread at the end of last year about being unhappy with my role, and you guys had some great advice. I ended up switching teams in January, only to have our marketing director, and his two direct reports (who I had really good relationships with) quit. I tried hanging in there in my new role, but it was pretty bad. I ended up finding a new role and gave notice this week, only to have my two peers also give notice! So the entire marketing team is gone, literally nobody left. It’s a little bittersweet because we had been a really strong team for a few years, so it’s a bit of a sad way for things to end. I hope I enjoy my new role, and my former colleagues also find success in their new adventures.

    1. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

      Wow! Losing the whole team is nuts. Congrats on getting out from what sounds like not a great place to work.

  26. RMNPgirl*

    What do people think of when non-profits are mentioned on this site?

    I’m curious because I’m in the healthcare field and everywhere I’ve worked is a non-profit. But when I read Alison’s responses or comments on this site it appears my experience of non-profit is not the same as what is being written. My current company pays very competitively compared to local hospital systems and offers great benefits. We do still have a strong emphasis on our mission but not in the same way it’s implied some non-profits are.

    I’m just curious what people are thinking of when non-profits are mentioned. For example, I think of something like Sierra Club and not my healthcare field.

    1. many bells down*

      I’ve worked for two, and I volunteer at a third, and they’ve been my favorite places to work.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      When I hear ‘non profit’, my default is an advocacy or human services organization of sometime. Anything from PETA to Doctors without Borders to a local housing organization.

      There are hospitals and other medical providers that are non-profit, but that’s not what I think of. If you work for a hospital, you’re almost certainly going to be doing the same things whether the hospital is for-profit or non-profit. But if you work at the Humane Society, you aren’t doing a job that’s similar in any way to General Motors or Sears.

    3. BusyBee*

      I worked for a non-profit health system, and though it’s technically a non-profit, it definitely didn’t seem like a typical “non-profit” environment. I think because some health systems are so huge, with such a diversity of roles, that you get away from the mission-based mentality. Not that healthcare workers don’t care about patients, but the diversity of work makes the mission less potent, somehow.

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Pretty much like you – I think of the Humane Society, etc.

      There are plenty of hospitals and other medical providers who are organized as non-profits, but what you do there as a nurse or doctor or whatever is pretty much the same work you’d do at a for-profit hospital. But there’s not nearly the same kind of overlap of jobs between, say, Greenpeace and Sears.

      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        Sorry for the double post.

        Submit button & refreshing the page acting wonky for me…

    5. Charlotte Lucas*

      I worked for an insurance company that was a “not-for-profit.” Unless you were an executive or in IT, the pay was terrible. But I never considered it anything like the actual non-profit (charity arm of a business) that my mother worked for when I was growing up.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        The insurance company did healthcare, so fell into a similar model as a clinic or hospital.

    6. Binky*

      I do think of medical non-profits as being significantly different from NGO non-profits. Just like most of academia is its own beast. I think the big split is between non-profits who depend on grants/donations to function and those that receive revenue in exchange for services with some grants/donations to permit provision of services to those without money to pay. When you’re entirely grant/donation dependent, I think that changes how the institution runs.

    7. JanetM*

      I think of “anything that isn’t for-profit” — could be a charity, or an activism / policy group, or a not-for-profit organization like some healthcare, or a union, or a museum or other educational organization. I probably think of policy / activism first, though.

    8. RabbitRabbit*

      I work at one as well – our institution clearly specifies that we are a “not-for-profit”, which I think helps distinguish between the classic “non-profit” (charity organization, maybe flying by the seat of their pants at times, probably/sometimes/possibly poorly paid) versus a for-profit institution where the CEOs are maybe raking in big bucks and costs are absolutely passed on to the consumer/patient.

    9. working for the weekend*

      Also non-profit hospital based healthcare system. I’m actually part of our development office, so my department related stuff is definitely more like a traditional non-profit, but our system as a whole feels a lot more corporate.

      When I hear nonprofit on this site, I’m thinking arts & culture (museums, local orchestra, etc) or social welfare organizations (shelters – human or animal, civic groups, etc).

    10. Jules the 3rd*

      I worked for an educational non-profit, and AAM’s experiences have been very much in line with that company. My impression is that the category of non-profit that includes arts and education are generally where these things happen. Not too surprising, we don’t pay teachers or social workers enough either.

    11. Anon librarian*

      I work for a city library so when I hear non-profit, I think of city jobs and more traditional “charity” jobs like Sierra Club or a local arts organization.

    13. OyHiOh*

      There are charities (provide a short term solution answering an immediate need – think Toys for Tots or winter coat drives), non profits (organized for exempt purposes according to the IRS and earnings do not inure to shareholders or individuals), and not for profit businesses (NOT organized for exempt purposes according to the IRS AND earnings do not inure to shareholders or individuals).

      From the IRS website: “The exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3) are charitable, religious, educational, scientific, literary, testing for public safety, fostering national or international amateur sports competition, and preventing cruelty to children or animals. The term charitable is used in its generally accepted legal sense and includes relief of the poor, the distressed, or the underprivileged; advancement of religion; advancement of education or science; erecting or maintaining public buildings, monuments, or works; lessening the burdens of government; lessening neighborhood tensions; eliminating prejudice and discrimination; defending human and civil rights secured by law; and combating community deterioration and juvenile delinquency.”

      I’ve served on the board of an arts non profit (“education”), worked for a theatre non profit (“education,” “underprivilaged,”) and currently work for an economic development non profit (“lessening the burdens of government,” “underprivilaged”). I don’t have any particular expectations of what a non profit may or may not be.

    14. Lemon Zinger*

      You just can’t generalize– “all non-profits” or “most non-profits” etc. It’s simply not useful. They’re just like any other organization in that there are good ones, bad ones, ones that pay fairly, ones that don’t, etc.

      I work in higher education (only non-profit schools) but colleges are very much profit-driven. How much they act like a for-profit business depends on the school.

    15. Maggie*

      Honestly after reading this site my opinion on non-profits is “Run as fast as you possibly can in the other direction”

      1. Quandong*

        I was going to post this reply too! With the addition of ‘a workplace that takes advantage of people who have strong feelings of obligation to help people or animals or the environment, and very likely to cause burnout & churn through workers every year.’

    16. I'm just here for the cats*

      Yeah, when I hear non-profit I think of the following
      1. Environmental conservancies or stewardships like the one I interned at in college
      2. religious organizations with specific missions such as homelessness
      3. Programs that help low income families with rent assistance, parenting classes, etc.
      3. rotary type of programs like food banks.

      I think there are just so many different types of non-profits that it really depends on each person’s experience. I wouldn’t ever think of healthcare as a non-profit unless it was the specific free health clinic in my area, (which is actually run by a religious organization.)

      I don’t think all non-profits are like what’s written on AAM. We just hear about all the bad ones, because that’s what this site is mostly about. Bad employers/employees and trying to get help.

    17. Skeeder Jones*

      I think there is a difference between a “non-profit” and a “not-for-profit” type organization. I work for a healthcare company and we are “not-for-profit”. We have services/products that we receive payment for (health insurance such as benefit plans that employers and individuals pay for, health care such as copayments for services) but we take the profit we make from these services/products and reinvest it in our community. A “non-profit” generally has items and services it provides to a community at no charge.

    18. Jean (just Jean)*

      Other types of nonprofits: Professional associations, membership of which can be individual professionals (Society of Professional Teapot Painters) or entire organizations (European Association of Llama-Grooming Regulators) or both (the National Council of Chocolate Melters, membership levels of which include student, young professional, basic professional, retiree, and institutional).

      Nonprofit office culture for will vary depending on the organization’s focus (investment banking or vegan baking?) and size and mission (200 people who run an annual meeting attended by thousands, or 1 soul with a card table, a land line telephone, and a twice-yearly photocopied newsletter?). Some are completely devoted to political activity, some do a small amount, and some do none at all.

      Most nonprofit professionals take pride in contributing their labor to a cause in which they believe. You won’t earn the last dollar in the world but you don’t have to be exploited, either.

    19. Chaordic One*

      I’ve worked at nonprofits that were a private school and a private college. (They both considered themselves “elite,” and the college really was. Unless you were in administration or a department head or in I.T. the pay was terrible and they didn’t treat their workers very well at either place.

  27. Fellow Traveller*

    I read this insightful article “Write better job adverts” by an organization that (in addition to other things) runs a job board for people in the arts. They talk about reasons a job ad might be rejected by them for publication and also give language that organizations can use in job ads to encourage a more diverse applicant pool.

    I would be interested in hearing what people think, and also was wondering if there is other language that people have found encourage a more inclusive hiring process. Or, language that you’ve seen which might also be particularly restrictive to underrepresented populations?

    https://www.arts-emergency.org/noticeboard/21/04/write-better-job-adverts

    1. Not So NewReader*

      This is really great. I’d like to see what Alison would add to this.
      I went right down the list say, “Yep, that’s right. Yep, that one is right too! Yep…”

  28. Domino*

    I have a close work friend. They’re the only one I feel comfortable venting to about the stupid politics of our workplace. My work friend just got offered a new job elsewhere and will be leaving me soon! I am thrilled for them, but sad for me.

    How have you dealt with this? And has the departure of a work friend ever motivated you to find a new job?

    (P.S. Apologies if this appears multiple times… the Submit button is behaving oddly for me today!)

    1. JustTellMe*

      For me it has helped push me in the direction more intentional job hunting if my mindset was already there and perhaps I was already casually looking. But usually it takes several good people to leave before I’m really feeling like “I gotta get out of here.” But as far as work friends to vent to, over time I’ve learned that it’s usually not a good idea to vent unfiltered to anyone, even if you think they are “safe”. So during times when I feel compelled to vent or gossip, I usually just send a wall of text in a message to a personal friend about it, even though my friend doesn’t know the details of my workplace, they can still serve that purpose of listening and agreeing with me on how stupid something is.

      1. Domino*

        That’s definitely good advice! I should have specified in my message that this person is also a good friend outside of work, and they vent equally to me.

        I used to have more close friends at work, but this is pretty much the last one standing… There are other people I like, of course, but no one I ever talk to after 5 PM. So yeah, I’m really feeling like “nothing’s keeping me here” at this point. I’m dreading not having someone to side-snark with during all-staff meetings, sigh.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      I *was* the work friend whose leaving got others to leave! I was sad to leave my workplace and colleagues, but I was going to a job with much better pay and more autonomy, so I knew it was the right thing. Showing that the grass really is greener seemed to inspire some folks in my office, and several of them left in the months after I did. If you’re actually genuine friends, you’ll maintain that friendship outside of work.

      1. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

        I, too, caused a mass exodus at my last company (whoops), but I don’t really keep in touch with my former work friends anymore.

        Domino, if you feel like it’s time to go and your work friend’s leaving has given you that push you didn’t know you needed, it’s okay to follow suit. It happens.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Most definitely it motivated me.

      But the raw truth is that losing the friend was the last straw. It’s all the problems that we complained about that were the real cause of my leaving.

    4. Your Local Cdn*

      Yes & yes! The work friend was also the only effective supervisor left and the way they were treated was kind of like a look into the future for me so it was a combination of that with not having a trusted person on the team anymore. We’re both much happier for leaving and still very much in touch.

  29. Anon, y mouse?*

    Hello all,

    I’ve been dealing with a situation since I started my current position (~1.5 years ago) that I was hoping to get your perspective on.

    Historically at my company, there was Group A and Group B. Groups A and B handled the same responsibilities, but for different product lines.
    When I started, it was right when a reorg was happening where Group A now took all of the responsibilities for both product lines and Group B (the group I joined) took the responsibilities of manufacturing both product lines (a responsibility I held at my previous job). This reorg resulted in a much cleaner divide of responsibilities, in my opinion.

    The issue is that my boss has been constantly fighting this division of responsibilities since it happened, has been calling the reorg a ‘demotion’ of our group and has been trying to claw back responsibilities held by Group A.
    This has resulted in confusion of responsibilities, tension between teams and demoralizing our team as our boss has perpetuated the ‘demotion’ mentality.
    I know that the responsibilities held by our group are crucial to the success of our business and am proud to be a part of Group B.

    How do I get my boss to understand that a) this reorg is not a demotion b) we have enough work with the as-defined responsibilities of Group B without trying to steal back responsibilities held by Group A and c) what they are doing is hurting morale and the team?

    I don’t know if my boss would be open to a conversation about this or if a conversation would be enough to change a mindset that has lasted this long.

    What do y’all think?
    Thank you for your help!

    1. LKW*

      Don’t get involved. This could be a demotion for your boss in that his expected track to career progression has more layers or isn’t as clear cut. Or it’s put the person that used to be his peer at a higher point in the org chart.

      Do your work, coordinate as expected by your boss’ boss – keep your head down. Your boss will either come around on his own, have expectations laid out clearly if he can’t come around on his own, or he’ll leave and the new person will be fine with the org structure.

      1. Anon, y mouse?*

        Thanks for your response!
        In the org chart, my boss and the Group A counterpart are on the exact same level… which is where it was before with no more levels in between. So this really isn’t a demotion… the redistribution of responsibilities just rubbed them the wrong way (I think because they see the other team’s responsibilities as being more ‘high profile’).
        I appreciate your advice though – I guess I’ll just continue as I was!

    2. KitKat*

      I disagree somewhat with the other commenter. This isn’t yours to fix (repeat that to yourself 100x! Not yours to fix!) but I think it’s worth mentioning *once*, in private.

      Boss: Ever since the demotion, blah blah blah
      You: You know, I actually really enjoy working on the manufacturing side and don’t view it as a demotion at all. It can even be a little demoralizing to hear you refer to it that way! Anyway, to answer your question…

      That way you are signaling that you’re not on board with his language and that it might even cause problems for the team, without putting yourself in a position of trying to convince him of anything or make yourself any kind of squeaky wheel.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Not your battle. You are fortunate to have a clear handle on things and that will serve you well in the long run.
      Just my opinion, but if the boss does not change his thinking you can probably expect to see that boss leave in a bit.

  30. Alice*

    I *literally* just got a call from a company I interviewed for. I was their second choice… but they liked me so much, they’re opening a second position for me!! I have to wait until next week for a formal offer, so I’m staying quiet until then, but unless there’s anything glaringly wrong with the contract I’m going to take the job. My current position turned out to be totally different from the job posting and with tons of management issues. The only snag is my contract (EU-based) requires me to give 45 days notice, but I’m excited to go back to doing what I studied for :)

  31. Mischa*

    Do any attorneys/paralegals/other legal professionals have any tips on maintaining digital research files/notes? My current method is pasting case excerpts from Westlaw to a OneNote file, which is fine…but it could be better.

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      I would love to hear — when I first started out of course I had to photocopy everything from the books and then used highlighters and post-its. Now I save the Westlaw cases to a folder (and still highlight the sections I want). Most of my research now is statutory and regulatory, so now I just tend to save the sections I want in a Word document (along with my notes of what I looked at and what was (or wasn’t) there.

    2. RecoveringSWO*

      I experimented with putting notes in OneNote or the research website’s notes option, and then reverted back to using a Word document due to formatting issues. I found myself frustrated and wasting time needing to change the copy and pasted case law into whatever format the Court/style book requires (especially if for some god awful reason it wouldn’t change or would mess up spacing or something…ugh!). I’ve noticed that other attorneys will have one huge word document with all sorts of case law, but I try to have separate Word docs based on the issue and save that in a folder with finished cases touching on the same issue. It’s certainly not high tech, but it’s more efficient for me.

      2. Glomzarization, Esq.*

        I have a similar scheme. I maintain several folders, each covering a different topic, in which I save cases, data, and forms for the work at hand. Some materials are duplicated across more than one folder because the information applies to more than one topic.

    3. Anonnington*

      There is an entire profession devoted to this: digital asset management.

      There is free and low cost DAM software out there. I would do some googling and find something. There are options designed to be used by a single person, like what you described.

  32. Keymaster of Gozer*

    A while ago, I asked here what to do about a member of staff who kept taking off their mask to sneeze all over the office (and was a bit of a covid denier to boot). I got a lot of great advice and want to thank you all with a satisfying update:

    He’s been fired. I got reports that he was continuing the same behaviour out at client sites after being told to stop it in the office. Gave him some severe warnings – he doubled down with more ‘if you were gonna catch it you would have done so by now’ bollocks. After one more irate client phoned up about snot being blown every which way across the server room I got HR agreement to fire him and as of this morning he’s gone. (Which is fast for a UK termination).

    Without the wonderful commentators here giving great advice I’d not have been able to keep my cool long enough to do this.

    2. Slow Gin Lizz*

      I don’t even understand. One of the few things I LIKE about wearing a mask is that I don’t have to cover my mouth and nose when I sneeze or cough (although I do anyway out of habit). WTF was wrong with that guy and HOORAY he’s been fired!! Thanks for the satisfying update!

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        Yeah, I think he started just trying to claim that the virus isn’t dangerous (I’ve lost 3 people to it, had a really hard time not telling him to go shag a cactus) but escalated from there. I dread to think what he does in public outside of work but that I can’t do anything about.

        1. The Prettiest Curse*

          I love the phrase “go shag a cactus”. Going to have to remember that one for the next time someone really pisses me off. And I’m glad you got rid of your arsehole colleague!

          1. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

            Right? I laughed and then felt bad for laughing because I’m sure KoG was frustrated as hell by this joker, but it was a brilliant turn of phrase.

          2. Seeking Second Childhood*

            I’m going to borrow it as “kiss a cactus” because I fear I’ll use it around the wrong person otherwise.

        2. Joan Rivers*

          We’ve seen so many people fired for dragging political beliefs into work — masking has been so politicized — as well as cops fired for sending racist emails at work, etc.!
          I always wonder if they regret it and wake up to their mistakes. We never hear followup on them or their job hunts. Some of them may have been lucky to have the job they did and not be that qualified for something equal in pay.

      2. CupcakeCounter*

        I have a love/hate relationship with sneezing in my mask. We are required to wear a certain type and it always seems so WET after a good sneeze and kind of grosses me out but I’m also so glad that isn’t all over my everything.

    3. StellaBella*

      Good news! Potentially harming people in a pandemic in this manner should be a fireable offence.

      1. allathian*

        Definitely! I’m glad he’s finally gone. And the “go shag a cactus” had me giggling.

  33. katz*

    How straightforward would you be?

    We have this quarterly meeting where part of the process we follow includes everyone in the meeting answering the question: “What’s not working in the company?”

    I usually try to find something innocuous, although my frustrations with this company are legion. We have our next quarterly meeting coming up, so I could use some ideas!

    1. Now In the Job*

      “Asking this question in a confrontational manner.”
      XD Maybe not, but it would be satisfying!

    2. violet04*

      I think if you identify what’s not working, you also need to bring some ideas for how to fix the process. I think this could go a couple of ways. You could mention small issues that are easy to fix. Or bring up bigger issues that would require work from multiple groups and/or leadership to fix. I don’t know how your company does with actually changing things, so maybe starting with something small would help.

      1. katz*

        That would be a logical conclusion! And I agree with you in that, if I’m bringing up an issue, I always try to have at least one suggestion to help the situation.

        Alas, the meeting guide says just ask the question, not present solutions at that time, nor is there dedicated space in the meeting to address anything mentioned in response.

      2. LadyByTheLake*

        As a risk professional, I am begging folks to please stop with the “don’t bring up problems unless you have a solution” mantra. I know that sounds awesome and proactive and businessy and all that, but some (most) problems aren’t fixable by one person, and the people who ARE in a position to provide a solution need to know about the problem before they can fix it. I can’t even begin to tell you how many compliance issues we have discovered where, after we discovered it, low-level people would say “yeah, I knew about that, but my boss said not to bring up problems unless we had a solution, so I didn’t say anything because I don’t know how to fix it.” So please — if there is a problem that could create risk of some kind, please speak up, even if you don’t have the solution.

        Sorry — pet peeve.

        2. katz*

          That’s fair! Especially with your perspective. I think the idea came about as a way to cut down on petty complaints.

          However, that’s not really the environment I’m dealing with here. When this comes up in the meeting, people mention all kinds of things without “solutions.” Nothing’s ever done anyway.

    3. Charlotte Lucas*

      I’d be really tempted to mention that you don’t get real feedback by asking this in a setting like a meeting.

    4. JustTellMe*

      I err on the side of pretty straight forward (sometimes to my detriment), but it also depends on how “safe” your employer is to receiving negative feedback. How have they responded to it in the past? Do things that are brought up actually get addressed and worked on, or is it just a platitude to show they are “trying” to improve? If I got the impression it was something they would never change, then I probably would not bother mentioning it. But if it was definitely something they could change, then I would do as another commenter said and bring it up in conjunction with my ideas for solutions.

      1. katz*

        I think I have enough capital to bring up actual things that are not working without repercussions. It doesn’t seem to do any good however.

        Your thought that it’s just a platitude to show they are “trying” to improve is spot on.

    5. Ashley*

      I would base my answer on if you think they are really open to change. If you aren’t show I would pick low hanging fruit that can be addressed.

    6. Anonymous Educator*

      I would be straightforward if I thought they’d do anything about what I was suggesting. Otherwise, nothing.

    7. RagingADHD*

      I would bring up real issues, and gauge how tactful to be about presenting them based on how straightforwardly other people respond, and how it’s received.

      If management has demonstrated willingness to hear and address substantive issues without negative blowback on others, I’d be more frank. If anyone who speaks up about anything real gets negative repercussions, I’d stop raising issues.

      If it’s in between, I’d go in between.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. I’d have a low or medium stakes question and use that to test the waters.

        But I would still try to pick something to tackle that would be of some meaning to me in my day-to-day work. Even though it’s technically my “test the waters question” I still would not waste it on something meaningless to me.

    8. Girasol*

      It sounds like this is an ongoing process, so perhaps you could take a cue from the past. What issues have been raised before? What did the company change as a result of hearing about them? Were the issues solved or band-aided or ignored? How did the company treat the people who spoke up? Have past issues been as sensitive or contentious as what you have in mind, or would you be bringing up the first real doozy? Will your issue put someone important or someone with a short temper on the spot? You know these folks. If they haven’t acted effectively on feedback in the past and maintained respect for the person who spoke out, you’re better off sticking with the innocuous.

  34. many bells down*

    I’m absolutely infuriated this week on behalf of my sister. She has 3 degrees, she’s a marketing manager who specializes is social media and SEO, and she also does graphic design and html for her workplace. This week I found out that not only does she make less than her wife, a preschool teacher (a notoriously underpaid profession), she’s making less than ME, the part time church secretary!

    To add insult to injury, apparently her office claimed to local government that everyone who could WFH was doing so. They haven’t allowed anyone to WFH for the past year. It’s a straight up lie.

    This all came out because she told me they decided to move up here to my state, so at least she’s job hunting now but oh my God this place is absolutely CRIMINAL.

    1. BusyBee*

      I work in the same field and was recently job searching, and I gotta say that one of the things I’ve noticed over the years, and saw first hand through this search, is that digital marketing has such a wide pay range. I was mostly applying at larger organizations, and all the jobs seemed to have similar needs/requirements. I saw a 50k difference between salaries, for jobs that looked very similar on paper and sounded similar when I spoke with hiring managers. I would imagine that if you factor in smaller orgs, the range probably gets even broader.

    2. Fly*

      Wow! She’s much more qualified than me, but in my experience in marketing roles, everyone thought of me as “the person who makes Facebook posts.” That’s just one example of how roles with these duties can be undervalued; it can look easy, or fun, or cool from the outside, but requires so much knowledge and hard work!

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Sadly, I see that one degree can get a person nothing. No doubt in my mind that 3 degrees can get a person 3 times nothing.

      1. Malarkey01*

        Yeah I think people fall into a degree trap too, I had one person really upset bout salary once because they had 2 degrees and a masters, which is admirable, but the job really only required an associates at most so their vast education really didn’t make the job “worth” more. It’s a big caution I have for people who pursue multiple degrees outside specific industries.

        1. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

          + 1

          I warn people about the same thing, and it’s why I’m hesitant to get an MBA.

  35. Nacho*

    How sick do you wait to be before you use a sick day? I got my first Covid shot last Saturday, and I was feeling a little groggy Monday, with a minor headache, so I called out because I didn’t think I could do my best at work. I came back Tuesday and found out that one of my coworkers got his second shot, and came to work both Monday and Tuesday despite feeling full-on nauseous and “like somebody was constantly punching him in the arm” where he got his shot. Am I calling out too quickly when I don’t feel 100%? Or is this guy crazy?

    2. JustTellMe*

      For something like the shot where you know it’s not contagious, I think it just depends on each person if they feel like they can/want to work or not. For me personally, if my symptoms from the shot were just a little groggy and minor headache, I would probably not call in as I would want to save my PTO days for when I *really* needed it. However, if I felt as bad as your coworker I definitely would have called in. Some people just feel compelled to work through any sickness unless it truly knocks them down, I always felt like it’s a bit of a martyr complex. All that said, I think going forward I will be more apt to call in (or work remotely) even for minor illnesses, as COVID has made me hyper aware and sensitive to not spreading germs to coworkers. I’m hoping others do the same, as I hated the days when people would come to work literally hacking up a lung in their office and refuse to go home.

    3. HigherEdAdminista*

      This guy sounds like either he has a severe anxiety about taking time off or is looking for points for working when he felt like crap.

      When I got my second shot, I got a fever and a bunch of other symptoms. The fever was technically gone by the time I had to go to work, but it broke in the middle of the night and I woke up feeling like a wrung out rag, so I took the day.

      I don’t take a ton of sick time, but I have also tried to think of it more as time I take when I am not feeling well, rather than time I take when I am positively too sick to move. Does that mean every time I’m not feeling well I take a sick day? Of course not, but I do consider if taking the day is going to help me in bouncing back (as opposed to putting me in worse shape). So for example, if I wake up with a wonky stomach and a headache on a day full of planned meetings, I’m going to take some tylenol and plan to eat bland, and power through because not going means I am going to feel stressed and potentially let down others. However, if I wake up like that on a quiet day, and I’m finding myself struggling to get through my morning routine, I might take the day. This means I can rest and be ready to go the rest of the week usually, as opposed to ignoring it and becoming increasingly run down or sick.

    5. CaVanaMana*

      It’s up to you in what you can handle. Don’t compare yourself to others. If you’re not up to working that day, don’t push yourself.

      Due to covid, unless you’re working from home, you definitely need to call out if you’re experiencing the mildest if symptoms even with the vaccine! Even if it’s very unlikely covid! If your coworker isn’t working from home, he’s in the wrong for going out while unwell.

    6. Cat Tree*

      You made the right choice. Some people have a martyr complex and want praise for dragging themselves into work at all costs. Your productivity is better when you take care of yourself.

      There are borderline cases where I might work when I don’t feel great (as long as it’s not contagious) because of a looming deadline or important meeting. But I’ve also taken the occasional mental health day just because I didn’t sleep well the night before and needed to catch up.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        My second dose is scheduled in a few weeks. I already plan to let people know not to expect me in the next day.

        1. calonkat*

          Most people in my office got hit the day after we expected (so got the 2nd shot on a Monday morning, it was Tuesday evening when people started feeling poorly and Wednesday was the big hit to work.

          I was wfh throughout, so I just worked from the sofa under blankets and my spreadsheets never knew the difference :)

        2. OyHiOh*

          I had a weekend training thing get cancelled because the trainer was scheduled for part of their shot series the day before. Given so much range between “arm was a little stiff” and “needed to be hospitalized,” I think it is only prudent to plan ahead for a day out of work ahead!

      2. Wool Princess*

        I was really hoping this sort of martyr-dom would fall by the wayside because of the pandemic.

    7. Web Crawler*

      Some other things to keep in mind- everyone’s baseline “fine” is different, and people are not very objective at describing how they’re feeling.

      To give an example, my ex’s “not great” meant they could barely function (but they were taught never to complain).

      On the other hand, I’ll complain that “it feels like my head got hit by a hammer covered in fire ants” after the covid vaccine and still try to work until I realize I’m getting nothing done. (The missing context is that I have chronic migraines. My baseline “fine” is usually full of pain, and I don’t have the sick days to spare.)

      Basically, use your sick days- that’s what they’re there for. One of the things you have to unlearn as a chronically ill person is that you can’t “suck it up” and ignore your needs to work more. That’s the quickest way to burn out.

    8. Anonymous Educator*

      You shouldn’t have to be really sick to use a sick day. I used a sick day after my Covid vaccination. So did my partner. Our managers were very understanding about it. Your co-worker should have taken a sick day, too.

      1. Chantel*

        Yep; agree. Occasionally I take a sick day just because I need the mental time off. My boss is great about it – she does the same thing!

    9. RagingADHD*

      Y’all are both fine. It’s a judgment call. It largely depends on what needs to be done.

      If I have an important client call or a pressing deadline, I’ll push myself to get something done even if I’m at 60-80 percent. If it’s just routine prep work or a light day, I’ll more readily take a day off for being not at my best.

    10. CupcakeCounter*

      I think it depends on your field, previous experiences, and other factors.
      For my job, I probably would have bit the bullet and gone in or tried to WFH with your side effects because Monday is a important and busy day in my role and I just sit at a desk and play with spreadsheets. I definitely would have taken full sick time for your coworkers symptoms though.
      For my husband, it would have been flat out dangerous for him to work with what your coworker was presenting (heavy machinery).
      My mother works with an incredibly vulnerable population so they would have sent her home in both cases.

      In reality…we need to get closer to your mentality so people don’t feel pressured to work while ill.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      When I called for my shot they told me to pick a day where I did not have any big commitments that day or the next day. I thought that was wise advice.

      Some people have higher pain tolerances.
      Some people may have something planned later on that they want time for.
      Other people come from back grounds where being dead is not an acceptable reason for not showing up for work.

      Set your own guidelines and follow your own guidelines consistently. I took flack at one job because I’d call out when there was a severe snow/ice storm. I probably missed two days a year. I was treated with the utmost contempt for these absences. I finally landed on my comfort while driving was more important than worrying about nastiness at work. I actually had guidelines for when I would not drive, screw what other people thought. (I should say, I still have a scar on my face- decades later- from trying to get to that nasty job in an ice storm.)

      For your own peace of mind, just be consistent with your own self. Do what you need to do for you.

      1. Quinalla*

        People definitely have different tolerances for pain, etc. Do what you need to do, try not to overthink it. I made sure I had nothing critical the day after my 2nd shot, but felt a little weird and arm pain, but otherwise fine, so I worked. If I was super tired and running a fever like my husband did, I would have napped like he did and taken a sick day.

    12. Double A*

      I have a job where if I take a day off, the work still piles up so I basically have to work extra when I get back, so like, I burn 8 hours of sick time but end up working 4 hours extra during the week to make up for it. Plus cancelling and rescheduling all the meetings/appointments I have on a given day is really annoying.

      But I’m WFH so I will power through feeling preeeetty crummy before I call off and just try to do my most brainless tasks if I’m not feeling great. Also I’m pregnant so really trying to maximized PTO for that leave.

      When I got my second shot, I arranged my next day so it was pretty low impact morning (mostly meetings I could just kind of sit in) and then the afternoon was open so I could take off if I needed. I ended up taking a nap a little before my usual closing time, but flexing half and hour is a lot easier than a whole day.

    13. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I no longer do what your coworker did. I have learned the hard way that if I through a migraine, or the day after dental surgery, I can do a full day of work and have zero memory of doing any of it. I have also gotten compulsive about writing down my Daily Journal and saving emails. But it’s not the same as being able to remember the project.
      If I have the sick time, I’m taking it.

    14. Malarkey01*

      I think it’s a judgement call that varies a lot by circumstances. I’ve gone to work with a migraine before because I had a critical task or important meeting that would have been bad to miss or a pain to reschedule. I’ve also had mornings where I just feel blahhhhh and tired, look at my calendar and see it’s really light, and take a day. I really avoid comparing where my “sick” is better or worse than someone else’s.

  36. Good Riddance*

    I’m currently job hunting, and wondering if, when I find a new job, I can ask my boss to only tell certain people I’ll be leaving until I’m gone.

    My team and another team are made up of mostly good people, but a third team I work with is full of the most lazy, incompetent, and unethical people I’ve ever met. They cause nothing but problems and more work for me, and they’re the reason I’m job hunting. One of them quit recently, and they came to me to say goodbye and mentioned how much they enjoyed working with me and how great I was since I fixed all their mistakes and screw ups without being mean about it. It was really awkward because I was ecstatic that they were leaving and had nothing positive to say about them in return.

    I worry if I find a new job and this team knows I’m leaving, they’ll all say they enjoyed working with me, etc. and I don’t know how I’m supposed to respond to that (I’m not willing to lie to make them feel better). I think it’d just be easier to ask my boss not to tell them I’m leaving.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      You don’t have to answer a compliment with another compliment.

      “You’re so wonderful because you fix all our screwups without making us feel bad!”
      “Well thanks”

      1. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

        Exactly right. I do this little side step all the time and people don’t notice, lol.

    2. Maxie's Mommy*

      There’s “you’ve been so much fun to work with, I never enjoyed doing weekly reports so much” and there’s “this has been a great place to work, everyone’s so nice”. One’s specific to the commenter and one is vague and general.

    3. Dark Macadamia*

      Thanks + something generically positive. “Oh that’s sweet, yeah this was a great place to work.” “Thank you, I’m excited to (thing you’ll be doing) at NewJob!”

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      There is no need to respond with “I like _____ about you” with “I like _____ about you too.” It is perfectly fine to respond with “I’m going to miss the great people I worked with here” or if you truly hated every single thing and persons around the OldJob — “NewJob will be a change!”

    5. pancakes*

      I think it would be just as awkward, if not more so, to ask your boss to keep your departure a secret than it is to avoid scowling (?) when people tell you things you don’t want to hear. You almost certainly don’t have to pretend to have enjoyed working with these people – if your workplace is like most others, you just need to not be churlish about it.

    6. Not A Manager*

      I really think you should not do this. It’s similar to the manager recently who wanted to ignore her outgoing employee. Asking the boss to alter normal workplace procedures because you don’t like your colleagues is pretty odd.

      I think you should just take their comments as meaningless social niceties and respond in the same way. There are a lot of social niceties that aren’t literally true but certainly aren’t lies (“it’s nice to meet you,” “I’m fine thanks, how are you,” “sincerely yours,” etc.). “I’ve certainly enjoyed working here,” or “I wish you the best” aren’t lies to make your slacker co-workers feel better, they are necessary social lubricant.

    7. Lemon Zinger*

      Don’t ask people to keep secrets in the workplace. There’s absolutely no reason for this. Respond to compliments graciously– “thank you, that means a lot” is all you need to say.

    8. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      If their work interacts with yours (even if it is in a “you’re great as you fix all our screw ups for us” sort of way!) they presumably do need to know you’re leaving, for planning/continuity purposes. I think that kind of planning has to take precedence over your worry of how to respond to their platitudes.

    9. BRR*

      I think it’s a really odd request. You don’t have to lie, just say something brief and vague. “Thanks” “Thank you for the well wishes/kind words” “I’m excited about this new opportunity” When your former coworker left you could have said “best of luck in your new position.”

  37. Mr. Tyzik*

    I applied for an internal promotion a couple week ago and have moved to the second round. I was honest with the recruiter that I am interested in working with this leader and that I want to continue as a remote employee. I was told I’d have to go to the office 2-3 days a week (40 miles away).

    I’ve been remote for years and have a number of health issues that qualify as disabilities. The last few years I’ve had a severe reduction in flareups and I’m sure it’s because I don’t commute, I have full access to my meds, and I’m much less stressed as I can rest as needed. I’m hopeful I can negotiate something, but if not, should I ask for an accommodation if I have to go in? How would I?

    1. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

      Does your company’s HR department know about your disabilities? I’m a remote worker who has some chronic illnesses that would qualify me for intermittent FMLA leave, but didn’t really tell my current employer this because my role is totally remote and has been since I was hired nearly two years ago. If you did like I did and just neglected to say anything about it because, hey, you’re working from home full-time so what’s the point?, you might want to reach out to them now and let them know that you would like more info on how to apply for FMLA leave. Get it on the books before a decision is made so that if you can’t negotiate full-time remote work with the hiring manager, the HM and HR can work together to figure out what reasonable accommodations can be made to allow you to take this new position.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      At the offer stage. Possible script:
      “You’ve said the role would require being on site 2 – 3 days each week. That would probably cause a health problem flare-up, so I’d like to discuss possible accommodations now. Here’s what I was thinking:”

      Possible things to ask for:
      – Fewer days on site (2/mo or 1/week), with regular (remote?) 1-1 check ins more often than other people in this role might do.
      – Shorter days on-site supplemented with wfh (ie work 8 – 9, drive 9 – 10, work 10 – 3 (w/lunch), drive 3 – 4, work 4 – 6). Maybe not all days, maybe 1 day full and 1 day short.
      – An office of your own, and the right to close the door and rest without being disturbed or shamed?

      In general, try to figure out what they want to get from you being on site, and see if there’s something you can offer in exchange that’s also a benefit to your team. For my company, wfh = I can join those 7am / 8pm calls with global teams, and there’s coverage if something happens late in the day.

      Good luck, and good health…

  38. Hopeful*

    At my current job, if I want to use sick time for a scheduled doctor’s appointment (or any other reason), I have to use a minimum of 3 hours. This was in effect prior to Covid. Has anyone else seen this before?

    I’ve only had a couple of office jobs before the one I’m currently in and I wanted to know if it’s a common thing or something unique to my workplace.

    1. lost academic*

      Yup, I have to use it in 4 hour increments. Which is nonsense. But I usually don’t – unless I can’t make up the work during the rest of the week (or don’t want to). I try to reserve it for actual sickness.

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      I used to have to use PTO in 4-hour increments. Technically, I didn’t have to report absences of less than 4 hours, but management didn’t always understand the difference between exempt & hourly staff, so if the appointment was at the beginning or end of the day, I might make up the time. Otherwise, I just took 4 hours off & treated myself to a nice lunch or something similar. (I had tons of PTO at that point. Previously, sick time had been unlimited for exempt staff, but it had been abused by some & gotten taken away.)

    3. A penguin!*

      I’ve seen 2 hour min, 4 hour min, or no minimum at my various different jobs. If I had to guess I’d say 4 hour minimum was the most common I’ve seen.

    4. The Original K.*

      I’ve seen this before. I used to work for a company with offices in the UK and our UK counterparts had to use PTO in this way, while we in the US did not. So if my work day typically ended at 5, I could leave at 3 to go to the doctor and that wasn’t a big deal and I didn’t have to use PTO at all (salaried), but my UK equivalent would have to take off after lunch and be out the rest of the afternoon. I don’t know why, but that’s how it worked.

    5. katz*

      I’m in the US and also have to use PTO in 4-hour increments (or .5 day).

      A previous workplace was 2-hour increments (.25 day), which is far more reasonable IMO.

    6. MissCoco*

      This was basically the policy at my 1st job when I switched to exempt
      Our HR was very reasonable about it and basically said I could be out 1-2 hours without using PTO, but 2-4 was a half day. It wasn’t clear why that system is better than me just reporting and using actual amounts of time, and had to ask some clarification questions the first couple time sheets

    7. TiffIf*

      I started work at my company in 2013 and until last year we could only take PTO in 4 hour increments. They changed it during covid.

    8. Lemon Zinger*

      Yes, unfortunately my workplace is the same way. I live a block away from my PCP and I have an appointment today. I would gladly return to work afterward, but I can’t because my sick time is from 1-5. Oh well, guess I’ll have to start my weekend early! I say this acknowledging that the system is completely unfair for people who do need to be careful about their sick time usage (I have more than I could ever use unless I got seriously ill).

    9. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

      It’s common, but every place I’ve worked where I was salaried allowed us to just flex our time for doctor’s appointments and “make up” the time we were out so we didn’t have to use large chunks of sick time (especially when I worked at a company where we only had five sick days a year, this was helpful).

    10. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Salaried folks at my org have to use PTO in 4 hour (0.5 day) increments, but time off that’s ~3 hours or less, generally managers don’t worry about under the notion that it’ll all even out at some point.

      Hourly folks at my org have no restrictions on how they use their PTO, and in fact if your clocking rounds to like 39.92 hours for the week, the system default is to pop the missing 0.08 hours from your PTO (because we have major restrictions on unpaid time off). The PTO system might have a 15 minute minimum, but I’m not even sure about that, because it rounds to the minute, so if you really wanted do put in for five minutes of PTO, I think you could do as an hourly employee.

    11. Girasol*

      We had people taking half hour here, ninety minutes there, and then we got an announcement that it had to be in 4 hour increments according to law, because we’re exempt. I have no idea if that’s actually in the law or not.

  39. pretzelgirl*

    Should I dress up for an internal interview? Really its basically a meeting discussing a new position. I know the manager and director of the department very well. They know my work and qualifications. Our office is very business casual, sometimes people wear sweats and jeans (although I do not). I would feel very out of place in a suit or even dress pants.

    1. Nacho*

      Yes. Not full suit/tie/Sunday best, but definitely the best thing you can wear that wouldn’t get you funny looks if you came to work in it. Maybe even a little better if your interview is for a major promotion. Definitely not jeans and a t-shirt.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        Agreed! I once had an internal interview on a casual Friday. The interviewers said they should have told me I didn’t need to dress up, but I could tell they were impressed that I did. (I wouldn’t have dressed casually, anyway.)

      2. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

        Exactly. It’s still an interview and you should still be trying to present yourself in the best possible light.

    2. Binky*

      Can you dress up just a bit? So take your normal outfit and just make it slightly nicer? Maybe your regular pants with a slightly nicer blouse or cardigan? Just enough to show you’re taking it seriously, without being out of step?

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        This is what I was thinking as well. Dark wash, trouser style jeans and a nice top and open blazer.

      2. pretzelgirl*

        Yes, these are good ideas. Thanks. I think I have more casual type slack I can wear. It won’t look out of place and will still be nice. Thanks.

    3. JustTellMe*

      I would maybe step up my outfit a little bit for the interview, in a way that shows you are taking care and want to put your best foot forward, but not “overdressed” for the culture as you mentioned. Not sure what that means for you since even slacks seems overdressed. Maybe a good pair of dark jeans, good shoes (not sneakers), with a button up shirt or a nice knit sweater? You could “dress down” the button up shirt by rolling up the sleeves or something.

    4. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      I would kick it up a notch, just to indicate that you are taking the process seriously and investing energy in making a good impression. Maybe a jacket where you might ordinarily wear a cardigan, or a regular work outfit with a nice piece of jewelry? And make sure you’re well-groomed.

    5. Lemon Zinger*

      Yes, you should dress up. Not a suit since your workplace is casual, but slightly more formal than what you wear normally. It shows that you’re taking it seriously.

      1. Joan Rivers*

        Expensive jeans w/a nice navy blue blazer and shirt is always a good look. And you can take off the jacket if you want to dress down.
        Little black dress w/jacket and scarf, so you can take off layers.

  40. Miss Bookworm*

    I really can’t deal anymore. So many unbelievable situations this week.

    1. Our company fired a long time employee almost two weeks ago; 100% justifiable, there were major issues. They haven’t told anyone though that this person was fired and haven’t redirected his email or put an out of office saying he’s no longer working there… so both employees and clients have no idea what’s going on. I only know because I overheard IT and that person’s manager talking about it, but I’m not supposed to know. I seriously have no idea how to approach this because it’s impacting our work, but no one will give a straight answer about what’s going on and I don’t know if I should just come right out to upper management and say “I know Joe was fired… What is being done because of x and y issues.”

    2. My boss hasn’t given me my yearly review yet (which is when any bonuses and raises are announced), but I saw them come through on my paycheck today and went to HR this morning thinking I’d been overpaid. They were like “Uh, didn’t you get your review? It says you signed off on it.” Umm, no. That never happened. They’re going to look into it. But I feel kind of put out that this all happened. I don’t even know what the review says and wasn’t given an opportunity to really address any concerns; also, that raise was barely COL and after the last year where I was forced to step up and manage an entire department and deal with all these issues with zero support from upper management, I just feel like I was due way more. Now I don’t know what to do or how to approach any discussions.

    3. A coworker traveled out of state last week and hasn’t quarantined at all—nor have they, by their own admission, gotten a COVID test. They also, again by their own admission, haven’t been vaccinated. Upper management doesn’t seem to care that this person is coming to the office every day. I’m only in-office twice a week and I don’t work with this person so my exposure is much more limited compared to others, but I’m still furious at this is being handled.

    4. A direct report has regressed on certain tasks and is making mistakes that they never used to make and shouldn’t be making after 1.5 years. They’re also asking questions that they already know the answers too. But on 80% of what they do therems no issues. I’ve tried getting to the bottom of it and had a couple training sessions with her; she 100% knew what she was doing during those sessions, but afterwords she’s still making mistakes. I have no idea where to go from here. I can’t reassign tasks at the moment (for various reasons; shorthanded, we’re all overworked—I’m doing the work of three people), so I need to figure out what’s going on with her. I don’t know how to go about doing that though.

    5. Our company was bought out almost 2 years ago now. Our new owners announced last week that we would be moving to their PTO policy/schedule which is actually a really good thing; their breakdown is really simpler and you can carryover more time. Our old policy you start at 15 days and every anniversary you gain a day until you max out at 30 days; whereas new policy it’s 22 days 0-4 yrs, 27 5-9yrs, and at 10 you jump to the max at 32. We also gained 2 floating holidays. Everyone will have gained time, some have gained as much as a week. No one has last time. And yet people are complaining. I don’t understand!

    1. PollyQ*

      Possible script for #1: “There’s a lot of confusion over Joe’s status among clients & employees, and it’s causing problems [X, Y, & Z]. How should we handle this?”

      But really, your company is being ridiculous. There’s nothing hard about sending out an email saying, “Joe’s last day with us was April 10. His responsibilities will be handled by Jane & Fergus. We wish him all the best in his future endeavors.”

      #3: Given that COVID is so widespread in the US (although down a lot from the beginning of the year), and that many people aren’t taking adequate precautions when they’re home, I’m leaning towards not worrying about the travel, unless it was to one of the states that’s surging right now.

      1. Miss Bookworm*

        They’re usually much better at telling us these things, so I have no idea what the issue is here. I know some people have brought it up to upper management (like “Where’s Joe? Is he okay? X and Y is going on, we don’t know what to do”) but haven’t gotten anywhere. Unlike them I’m a supervisor, so while not part of upper management I’m hoping if I bring it up we’ll get an answer. I’ve just never dealt with a situation like this before.

      2. thatoneoverthere*

        I agree with PollyQ on 3. Many people are now traveling at this point. Many people in my office traveled for spring break and did not quarantine after. However most in my office are vaccinated.

    2. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      5 you can’t do anything about except to say cheerfully “I found I’m getting more time off under the new system and I think it’s much easier to understand!”

      4. What is this person’s system for checking her own work? Can you talk to her privately and ask her if there’s something going on you should know about? You can do it in a supportive way, praising the 80% good work she does and recognizing that sometimes mistakes happen.

      3 is just outrageous and I think it’s worth raising a stink. This person could kill someone.

      1. Miss Bookworm*

        4. We have a doublecheck built into the steps; it’s all dual entry, so she enters a payment and invoice details to a spreadsheet and confirms that it works on the spreadsheet. Then it gets entered to the system. The system will issue a warning if something doesn’t work properly. For example, if a payment doesn’t match the invoice in the system then when you hit submit a box will pop up warning you; if you hit submit again then it bypasses the warning and posts the payment. If you hit cancel then you can go back and fix any mistakes. It’s like she’s ignoring that warning or she’s in such a hurry that she’s thinking “Oh I’ll go back and correct it later” and forgetting to do so. I have a meeting setup with her for Monday so I’ll see what else I can do to help her.

    3. Theo*

      On number 4 — I was your employee, and it’s because I was completely exhausted and burnt out from Covid stress with a high-risk partner and raising a small child. Have you talked to her about what’s going on? Encouraged her to take time off (I took a week and it totally changed my abilities)? Looked at what else in her work might have changed?

      1. Miss Bookworm*

        She absolutely could be burned out; I know I am. I do encourage my direct reports to take time off, but she usually will only take a couple days at a time. I’ll bring it up with her and see if she needs a more lengthy time off or if we need to rework her schedule to accommodate anything.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Don’t forget a stressed boss is going to have stressed employees. You wear your boss’ stress and she wears yours. Everyone is making more mistakes. I look back at my posts here and I am seeing more typos than ever and this isn’t even work. At work I am triple checking everything.
          Trying to fix her “problem” might only cause more upset from her and beget more mistakes…..
          I’d suggest talking about the stuff that really cannot slide under the radar and let other things go.
          I know with my own boss and I that we can get distracted because of fixing each other’s mistakes that we make more of our own. This is probably something she won’t mention to you but it’s good if you are aware of such instances.
          If she is basically a good employee, I think complimenting her might help you gain more ground quicker.

    4. BRR*

      #4 “hey I’ve noticed you’ve been doing X. When we had the training in DATE your work was good but after I’ve noticed the issue again. Can you tell me what’s going on here?”

    5. Quinalla*

      1. Just bring it up matter of fact like you suggested – I know Joe was fired and we need to figure out how to handle X, Y, Z and how we are communicating it to client A & B. Some workplaces are super weird about firings or specific firings, I don’t get it either, but you’ve got to push them!

      2. Talk to your boss about it – I was told by HR my raise went through, but I haven’t had my review yet, when are you available to get that scheduled?

      3. What is your company policy here? Lean on that with their boss/supervisor.

      4. Glad you have a meeting scheduled, I’d ask what you can do to help or remove roadblocks and yeah encourage taking off a week of PTO and help her get coverage for it.

      5. Talk to people one-on-one and also maybe bring it up briefly at a staff meeting that you’ve heard some complaining about the new PTO policy and that you want to clear up how it works, give a brief explanation of how it is neutral/better and ask for questions and encourage folks to come to you with feedback one-on-one if they still have concerns. I’ve found sometime people are just change adverse, often for good reason, and just need help regaining perspective. Or maybe you’ll get some feedback that justifies the complaints!

    6. Solar Moose*

      #4 – If your entire team is overworked, it’s time to push back on upper management. It sounds like this is someone who has a history of being a good employee, who is unable to keep up with unreasonable demands. That means you or the people above you need to (1) figure out priorities, including what can be dropped on the floor, and (2) figure out hiring, so that the “overworked” portion is a short term problem rather than a long term problem.

      If you have strong employees on your team that are overworked, it’s only a matter of time before they start eyeing other opportunities, leaving you worse off. That goes for the entire team, not just ones with issues visible to you.

  41. Recyclops*

    Wanted to get thoughts on a scenario from a previous job that still really bugs me and don’t know if it’s “normal” or not. I was a secretary for a government contracting agency and was admittedly not great in that position, resulting in a few meetings with the hiring manager who oversaw the hiring, firing and placement of all the admins. For every one of those meetings/trainings, including one in which I was put on a PIP, the hiring manager “invited”/included a specific woman who worked in her building (title was Business Manager and was not in a supervisory or HR position), but never once explained why she was there. I assumed it was to have a witness of the meeting, but it was still very off-putting, as I knew this woman was not a supervisor or HR in any capacity and was left wondering why the hiring manager was including a random employee in these (what I hoped would be) confidential discussions. I always wanted to ask what the employee’s role was, but didn’t feel it was my place. I’d like to have more confidence to speak up if this ever happens again, but still don’t know if this was normal and if my saying anything would have been/would be appropriate or not. TIA for any thoughts!

    1. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      I think it’s fine to ask “Would you mind clarifying Cersei’s role in this meeting? I was hoping this would be a confidential conversation.”

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      Usually in meetings like this they clarify who people are/why they are there if it isn’t evident. If they didn’t, I agree with Thin Mints, a simple inquiry would be totally normal.

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      It’s normal to ask, but it’s also become normal to have a witness for disciplinary meetings.

  42. Imposter or Liar?*

    Hey everyone, I need a reality check.

    I have worked as an in-house interpreter for a while, and had another in-house job that included interpreting and translation, but wasn’t only that. In between those jobs, I did some side gigs, but there honestly weren’t that many, so the cumulative experience would be under a year if full-time, I guess.

    How do I write this on my resume? Right now, I have all my full-time jobs listed with duties, and then two groups of other jobs on my resume, like this (just more nicely written out – sorry, trying to keep this anonymous):

    Side gig 1 (part-time, intermittent) April 201X – present
    – duty A for private clients and companies XYZ
    – duty AB at university Y

    Translation/interpretation (part-time, intermittent) April 201Y – present
    – translation of documents from language A into language B/C
    – interpretation services for private and corporate clients

    I feel like a huge fraud because one company apparently thought I had been a full-time interpreter with five years of experience (before I even got the in-house job), and that’s not correct. I also know that everyone inflates their resume, though, and mine is very modest compared to people I know or went to school with who I actually think have done less.

    Help, please?

    1. Reba*

      What if you made one heading for “Freelance”? that covers the intermittent but sounds better IMO.

      It seems like the language work is most important, and the other things (university) are less closely related? Is that right? maybe the university etc. gigs may not even need to be there.

      Freelance, 2018-present
      -translation of documents… known for fast, accurate delivery (or something else that makes it an accomplishment rather than just a task)
      -interpretation services for a diverse range of subjects and clients including Whatever Corp… (ditto)
      -Duties AB for university and corporate clients

      1. Reba*

        Also, you’re not a huge fraud. Someone misinterpreted your job history. You didn’t commit a great big faux pas here!

      2. Imposter or Liar?*

        Thank you for the reply! Technically, it’s all language work (I also teach) and some of that was tutoring. Seriously, considering I’m early 30s, my resume is so empty because I was sick for a bit in my twenties…

        The big problem is I had full-time jobs in between, so maybe I should write something like 2010-2012; 2013; 2015-16, 2020-present?

        1. Reba*

          I would just give one date range. To me, “freelance” covers the sometimes-on, sometimes-off nature of the experiences* — especially in the context that you have FT jobs right there on the resume too.

          When you’re asked, you can give more detail about how sometimes it was your main activity, sometimes dormant. Or, you could specify dates by the client name if that would make sense? You could break out tutoring separately as a possibility as well, if that makes sense to you.

          Freelance Translation and Interpretation 2010-present
          Interpretation, Client A (2013)
          Interpretation, client B (2014, 2016-2017)

          Freelance Tutoring (Dates)
          Sanskrit, University A (2010)
          Old English, University B (2012-2015)

          and so on.

          *I can’t say if this is the universal reading of freelance, but it makes sense to me! For context, I’m also in my thirties, and a lot of my peer group I’m drawing this from are in software and various creative fields. It’s very very common for them to sometimes be full time freelance, sometimes “freelance Saturdays” while doing a FT job, sometimes not taking freelance work at all.

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            I agree with Reba, one date range to cover the full time. Maybe ‘self-employed’ instead of freelance.

        2. Vermont Green*

          Consider something like this:
          2008-2010, 2015-2016, 2019
          Self-employed Foreign Language Specialist—teaching, translating, interpreting.
          Logitran Agency; University of Mystate, Private individuals, Translators without Borders, Local Hospital, etc.

          2011-2014
          Real full-time job, at name of place etc.

      3. LadyByTheLake*

        I wouldn’t necessarily use “freelance” because many freelancers (including myself) work full time. So I’ve been freelance for ten years and that really IS ten years of work experience. I think what you have above is perfectly clear, and if someone misread it, or jumped to conclusions without asking questions, that’s on them.

        1. Imposter or Liar?*

          That’s what I thought, too. Especially interpreters and translators tend to be freelance but full-time, or whatever hours they work to support themselves fully. In the target language, I can easily call it “part-time job”, but even then, it’s a grey zone because for example last year, I taught part-time and other than that got like three translation requests. (I don’t really have regular clients because I wasn’t allowed to work on the side when in-house, and never maintained any database/accounts.)

  43. Llellayena*

    Thanks all for your suggestions last week in dealing with temporary burn out until I can get to a true vacation in June. I took a long weekend (starting shortly after I posted, so I didn’t get to read comments until late) and came back Tuesday feeling a bit more ready to tackle work. Still looking for suggestions on how to focus during work, but I’m going to use up a few more vacation days on long weekends even if I don’t actually GO anywhere. Still antsy to GET AWAY though…

    1. katz*

      I scheduled 2 days for my second COVID vax. I figured even if I feel fine, I could use the days off.

      I’m going to look for your post from last week to see what else people suggested! Thanks for following up.

    2. hot priest*

      Glad you took a long weekend!

      Not sure this is in your budget but depending on restrictions in your area, would you consider a ‘staycation’ at a local hotel? My partner and I are considering this as a way to celebrate some milestones at the end of this month while still following public health guidelines in our province.

      As for how to focus at work, I’m afraid I don’t have much to contribute as I’m also struggling. I have been trying to use the pomodoro method which has helped a bit. Also drinking half-caffeinated coffee in the mornings now (I typically only drink decaf due to chronic insomnia/anxiety but have been having one cup of half caf in the morning and it seems to give me a good jolt to start off the day).

  44. Nervous trans guy*

    I could use some input from other trans folks on how to navigate job searching/interviews early in transition.

    I’ve been looking for a while and I finally have an interview coming up next week! But I have no idea how to bring up the fact that I’m trans or when in the process I should mention it, assuming this interview goes somewhere. I’m planning to wear a shirt and tie to the interview (thinking no jacket is probably okay over zoom, right? I haven’t found one that fits properly). But I’m in that awkward phase where I get looks sometimes from people that aren’t quite sure what to make of me, and it’s not likely to help me get read correctly. I’m not sure whether I should say anything in the interview or wait to see if I get an offer first. (Also, my references almost all know me as she/her, while I now use he/him, so there’s another potential complication.)

    For anyone else who’s been in a similar situation, what worked for you? Any ideas about how to bring it up, or questions I can ask to gauge how accepting this employer might be?

    1. JustTellMe*

      I apologize as I am not trans, so please disregard if you only want to hear from other trans folk. Normally I would say don’t address it at all, as your gender has nothing to do with your ability to do the job. But if you want to address it to make YOU more comfortable, then perhaps include your pronouns on your resume, right under your name or something? Or if you use LinkedIn it is getting more common for people to put their pronouns in their LinkedIn name.

      1. Nervous trans guy*

        Thank you. If this job doesn’t pan out, I may consider adding something to future applications. I’m a little hesitant to do it on my resume in case it looks odd, but maybe if an interviewer looks up my linkedin, it could help.

        1. Joan Rivers*

          Best of luck. I’m straight, but then your question is about dealing w/some other presumably straight people.
          So my take is, don’t be afraid to have a sense of humor. I think the idea that your references knew you as female and now you’re male is an interesting situation you could be upfront about. If you’re at ease and smile then interviewers will too.
          Back when coming out as gay was uncommon it helped if someone acted confident and direct. That applies here too, I think. Interviewers may be worrying about how THEY behave toward you and the more confident and open you seem the more at ease they feel w/you.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’m not trans but I’ve been involved in interviews so I hope some input from the other side is helpful. :-)

      Jacketless should be fine. In fact, I recently tried to wear a jacket for a Zoom meeting (because I was cold, not because I wanted to dress up) and was surprised to see it actually looked sloppier than a lightweight cardigan!

      If your references are going to know you as she/her, I think that’s a good reason (and time) to bring it up. I assume your interviewers won’t contact them (and maybe don’t even have the list) until after they’ve spoken to you, so this is a natural segue. “Yes, I’ll email you a list of my references right away. By the way, they’ll know me as she, although I’m a he now.” (Sounds like you’re using the same name?) And their reaction to that seems like a way to gauge whether they’re going to be accepting or not.

      1. Nervous trans guy*

        Oh, that’s a good point, thank you! Yes, luckily I changed my name a few years before I actually came out (to a gender neutral first name, although my middle name is pretty traditionally male, and I do have both on my resume).

        Do you think an approach like this would need to be in the moment, or would it look odd to do it over email? I know there’s probably some benefit to seeing their reaction in real time, but I get incredibly anxious, so if I can’t get it out verbally, I wonder if I can just throw in a line about it when I send over my reference list. That way I can have my small panic in private before I hit send, haha.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Yes, luckily I changed my name a few years before I actually came out (to a gender neutral first name, although my middle name is pretty traditionally male, and I do have both on my resume).

          Okay, if I saw a resume with something like “Logan James Smith,” I might think Logan was using his middle name to make sure people caught on to his gender. Especially if his physical appearance was not 100% confirming it, as you say.

          Do you think an approach like this would need to be in the moment, or would it look odd to do it over email? I know there’s probably some benefit to seeing their reaction in real time, but I get incredibly anxious, so if I can’t get it out verbally, I wonder if I can just throw in a line about it when I send over my reference list. That way I can have my small panic in private before I hit send, haha.

          I think either would be fine. Bypassing that opportunity to panic a bit is definitely a benefit. ;-)

    3. Web Crawler*

      I’m a trans man, and I was in a similar situation when I started interviewing for jobs out of college. (Although I was at the stage where people either gendered me as female or as a 13yo boy, and it sounds like you’re a little further along.)

      First, on job searching. Do you know any queer people in your field? They’re gonna be your best resource for figuring out how trans-friendly a company will be. And in my experience, the queer bond is strong. Just being trans gives you a network for finding jobs. If you reply with your general field, I can try to help you find specific resources. The ones I know off the top of my head are for STEM.

      As for coming out during the interview, it depends on how comfortable/desperate you are. You have many options.

      The first option is to say nothing, let people draw their conclusions, and come out later if you get the job offer. That way you don’t open yourself to discrimination if you really need a job. The downside is that it’ll be harder to gauge how accepting the company is during the interview, there might be some awkwardness if they gender you male and your references use she/her, and if you get the job, you might deal with more misgendering at first. Also, getting misgendered might affect your confidence during the interview.

      The second option is to present yourself as a man, correct people using she/her, and don’t bring up the “trans” part until it’s directly relevant (as in, giving a heads up to the most relevant person that your references know you as “she”). This has been my preferred strategy since I started passing more than 20% of the time. Basically, my strategy is to act like a cis man who occasionally gets misgendered. And the weird part is that it works because of the invisibility of trans men. (It’s wild. 95% of the office gendered me female when I started, but I can pinpoint the exact moment each of my team members realized I’m trans, and it took them months.)

      The third option is to be selectively open about being trans. This is just the above options, except if you have a good rapport with an interviewer, you come out, as part of asking about the office’s stance on LGBT folks. That’s what I ultimately ended up doing when I first interviewed. I already knew that the company was LGBT-friendly on paper, but that doesn’t always translate in practice, especially in the deep south. I think I asked something like “I’m a trans man. Do you think I’ll encounter any problems with people in the office?” and listened closely for hesitation.

      And of course, the last option is to be completely up front. It carries the most risks, but also the most reward (in terms of trying to figure out the office culture). I think you know how it goes.

      1. Nervous trans guy*

        Thank you so much for the response! I’m kind of in the same position you were, it sounds like – I’m a few years out of college but never really found a professional job after graduation (I’m in a temp job now in a different field), so I’m still very entry level.

        This particular job is in a law office, and I don’t have any queer connections in that field at all, or even any connections who might know anything about this firm (I do have one family member who works in law, but they’re halfway across the country). So I kind of have to go in blind, unfortunately.

        I do definitely want to get a feel for this place before I actually accept an offer, because I’d really like to be able to stay in my next job for more than the six months or so my last few positions have been, and I can go a little bit longer before I absolutely need something (I’m still employed, but will likely be laid off early from my temp job because our workload has decreased a lot since I started). I think I’m leaning toward saying something at the offer stage if I get there, or maybe in a second interview. If I bring it up in the first one, I’m afraid the anxiety about that combined with regular interview nerves will cause me to tank it.

        I do really like your matter of fact approach as far as just correcting pronouns and letting people figure it out. If it comes up, I may try to go that way for now.

    4. ecnaseener*

      About your references — have you told them you’re using he/him now? Making them aware of it means you don’t have to come out to the interviewer at that stage.
      Even if you do want to come out to the interviewer to gauge their reaction, I still think it’s better for your references to know in advance of the reference-checking conversation. You want your references to be fully prepared for the conversation, not caught off-guard when the interviewer outs you to them at the start.
      Good luck!!!

    5. Ginger Baker*

      Thank you to whoever above mentioned including pronouns on your resume – I have mine on my email, LinkedIn and Zoom name but this is a great place I can add to help normalize this as a cis woman.

      Re law firm interviews: you should be able to do some digging and get an idea of how trans-supportive the law firm you are interviewing at. It won’t tell you about your interviewers as individuals but at least gives some idea of what the law firm party line is (mine for instance is very vocal about trying to do better at diversity and inclusion, and definitely highlights our extensive pro bono work for trans folks changing their names).

  45. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

    PTO question…

    On the work-life-balance to work-life-integration spectrum, my personality falls very deep onto the work-life-integration end of the spectrum (e.g. I’m more than happy to return calls, texts, and emails, and to assist/support/coach coworkers covering my work while I’m on PTO as long as it’s on my schedule). I’ve interviewed with a company on the opposite end of the spectrum (once PTO starts, you don’t exist until PTO ends). I’ve been burned by that mindset in the past.

    Any advice on how to manage being the outlier in this situation?

    1. Nacho*

      What do you mean by “burned by that mindset”? Were you expecting people to do things while they’re on PTO? Or were you expecting people to ask things of you while you’re on PTO?

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        What do you mean by “burned by that mindset”? Were you expecting people to do things while they’re on PTO? Or were you expecting people to ask things of you while you’re on PTO?

        I left good instructions that were ignored and the programmer covering for me was forbidden to call me for directions. He ended up following SOP, which was not how we serviced that client; the client took a “Brown M&Ms” interpretation of the situation and canceled our contract. (It was a confederacy of dunces situation; the internal customer-contact who would have caught the mistakes ended up having to call out sick that day, too).

        I returned from a single PTO day to find 6 weeks of work circling the toilet bowl, and didn’t take another PTO day for the 2+ years after that I was still in that job.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I think if you tell a very abbreviated version of the story, to your manager, you can get your point across.
          “I would rather have a five-minute phone call on a day off, than risk a repeat of that unusual situation.” Smile brightly and add, “of course if I get invited to meet Queen, I will turn off my cell phone.”
          (Best speech to text error ever… I am not editing it to “the queen”!)

        2. Malarkey01*

          This seems like a pretty extreme example, although I’m sure it was HORRIBLE and hard to erase from your memory once it happened. I think one question with the new job is whether people will be covering for you on leave or not in general? If it’s more of a we only cover if something starts hitting the fan I think you can say if x, y,z happen please call and in most cultures that’s fine. If it’s something where there could be a lot more coverage or questions I’d write out directions and even add but if things get wonky I don’t mind a call.
          I think in general, most places are going to use common sense but it is concerning if you’ve made yourself so critical that you can’t take a day off-that’s not healthy for you or the organization.

          1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            I think in general, most places are going to use common sense but it is concerning if you’ve made yourself so critical that you can’t take a day off-that’s not healthy for you or the organization.

            I was critical to that client/project, but not to the organization as a whole or even that location as a whole.

        3. Quinalla*

          Sounds like a pretty extreme situation where there was a huge amount of chain of failures. The biggest one I see is not following clear instructions left.

          At my place, we encourage folks to fully disconnect on PTO, but we also respect if someone says it is ok to contact for urgent/emergencies for a specific time off and we do that vs. pissing off a client.

          I think you bring up with a new manager what happened in the past and what they would suggest to prevent something like that happening at the new place.

          1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            At my place, we encourage folks to fully disconnect on PTO, but we also respect if someone says it is ok to contact for urgent/emergencies for a specific time off and we do that vs. pissing off a client.

            That is exactly what I want.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      I don’t know that it would be good to just refuse to adhere to company policy… especially if they use time off to audit employees’ work. I think you will need to be good at setting expectations before you leave for any PTO and document processes for your staff wherever possible.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        I don’t know that it would be good to just refuse to adhere to company policy…

        I have no intention of refusing or of imposing my vision upon the company or my coworkers. I’m not insubordinate.

        I’m used to not being able to contact others, as I know most people prefer the other end of the spectrum. I do document–historically, having said documentation read has been the challenge, along with convincing others that they’re doing me a favor by asking questions.

        In my last two roles, I just didn’t take PTO (which was easier before I had a spouse and children), and in my current role I’ve had seniority to lend weight to my voice when I say “it’s really alright to ask questions if needed.” I’ll lose that seniority when I switch employers.

    3. Juniper*

      I can appreciate that this is an individual preference thing, but coming from a country where PTO laws are super strict (employers have to grant at least 3 weeks employent every year) there’s a lot of good reasons why companies would want you to be completely unavailable when you’re off. Someone else mentioned the audit issue, but it also indicates to me that the company is concerned about their employees’ well-being, and have good company management (redistributing tasks so no one is truly indispensable). I see below that you used an example of what happened when you took a day off, and honestly I don’t know that any other outcome would have been possible. Employees should be able to take a day off without having to answer their phone, even if in hindsight everyone would have been better off had he been able to call you. In my experience, few roles are so critical that they can’t go offline for at least a few days, and if that’s how your job has been I would question whether it’s your preference to be looped in so things are easier upon your return, or if your role is so indispensable that your tasks can’t be outsourced or put in pause for a few days. So to your question, I would probably try to realign my expectations with the new company culture. Say you’re reachable, of course, but beyond that I don’t see that there’s much you really can do.

  46. Mango cheesecake*

    Hi everyone, any ideas about things I can discuss with my manager in a weekly catch up meeting? We already work closely enough during the week that I feel we don’t need to discuws work during that time. They suggested we discuss my career development (for context, I’m very early into my career) but… do people really discuss their career development every week? It feels like a lot! I’m stumped and would welcome any ideas.

    1. Alexis Rose*

      If you’re running out of things to catch up about, I’d shorten the meetings or make them less frequent.

    2. Cat Tree*

      At places where I’ve had regular check in meetings, they have ranged from weekly, to every two weeks, to monthly. I have found every 2 weeks to work the best. Even then, the meetings often end a little earlier than the scheduled time.

      Career development should be an ongoing discussion, and it’s probably more nuanced than you’re thinking. For example, if you want to pursue creating databases, the discussion isn’t just about future jobs you might transfer into. Your boss should be looking for projects that incorporate that so to can practice, or thinking about ways to include that in your existing projects. You should also keep it in mind and bring up suggestions. You can both keep an eye out for available trainings, or maybe an expert coworker you can shadow. So in that sense, it career development could come up fairly often.

    3. JustTellMe*

      I would agree with Alexis Rose – if you don’t have much to share and your manager is expecting you to drive the meeting, then I would be honest about that and say something like “We are so good about our ongoing communication throughout the week that I find myself without much new to share during our Friday check-ins. What would you think of having them every other week/once a month rather than weekly?”

    4. TCO*

      I agree with others that maybe you don’t need such frequent check-ins if you’re getting the input you need from them about your work at other times.

      In terms of discussing career development, it would indeed feel weird to talk about your long-term ambitions every single week. But there are other ways to discuss career development. For instance, you could ask for your manager’s feedback or reflections on a recent project (“From your perspective, how did things go? Are there things I should do differently next time?”). You could get their insight on organizational or industry happenings, such as debriefing a recent big meeting or speculating about changes in your field in the coming year. You could ask them questions about their own job or other roles you might get promoted into some day (“What’s the most challenging part of your job?” “How did you get to your current role?”).

      You probably still don’t need weekly meetings. But I’d take it as a compliment that your supervisor is willing to give a significant amount of time to supporting your career development. If they’re a skilled leader, that’s a good opportunity for you.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Planning? next week, next month?
      I think it would be fine to ask what he thinks these meetings can be used for.

    6. Mango cheesecake*

      Thank you everyone! I think you’re right that I was taking ‘career development’ too literally. I’m going to explore what I can bring up with my manager, I definitely will act on the suggestion to ask for projects related to my career goals and their feedback on my work. They are a great leader and are really invested in my development, so I didn’t want to seem ungrateful by saying I wanted to reduce the frequency of our meetings.
      Thanks again!

    7. Squirrely*

      One of the skills I’ve been working on as a young professional moving herself towards managing somebody soon is strategic thinking. It’s been really useful for me to listen to my boss “talk through” something or in a meeting beyond me where she’s making strategic decisions on what battles to fight or what trade-offs she’s making.

      Maybe a recent policy change, something in your field that’s new, a new initiative of your project, something a peer org is doing… my boss has been wanting me to develop career wise, and it’s been super useful!

  47. Taylor K*

    Hiring Question here,

    I was recently offered a position working for one of the Hosptials in my area. Thanks to Ask the Manager I knew how to negotiate and wound up getting a higher starting salary along with some other benefits I would of never got if I didnt negotiate. Anyways I was called on Tuesday and was given a verbal offer over the phone. It is now Friday and I have still have not seen the a written offer. I spoke to the HR lady who made me the offer on Wed. and she said something about “Merging my old profile with my new profile caused I worked there over 7 years ago, and would call me when they send out offer letter.” Should I touch base with her again here shortly and see what the timeline is? I am only asking because the start date is in 2 weeks and I want to give my current employer the proper notice.

    1. Chilipepper*

      I think you are right to be cautious about giving notice. I think you do have to check back with HR and maybe the hiring manager. Can you email and say you wanted to check back as if you have to delay giving notice, it will delay your start date?

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      Do not give notice until you have a written offer. I’ve been burned by that before and I wouldn’t want anyone else to have to deal with it. They can push back the start date.

  48. Anon for this here post*

    I made the mistake of expressing concern for “Sansa” who seems overworked and then snaps at people. I was talking to my assistant manager about her and asked if there were others who could help her with something or work that she could delegate to someone.

    Well, he must have told Sansa because she wouldn’t talk to me for a few days. (As in, not even say “good morning”.) When she finally started to talk to me again, she made some passive aggressive comment by saying, “Oh, I like “Persephone”. She’s so nice and would never talk about someone. That’s the kind of person that I like.”

    Another time, when I came back from lunch, Sansa was talking about it with another coworker and they stopped talking when I entered the room.

    I feel bad, but if there is a problem, shouldn’t she pull me aside and talk to me personally? I feel like I’m walking on eggshells around her because she gets upset and shuts down/doesn’t talk to anyone.

    I realize that I shouldn’t have said anything and again, I feel bad, but Sansa takes on too much work and then is overwhelmed. She then lashes out at people and it happens over and over.

    Has anyone else ever experienced this? What did you do?

    1. Krabby*

      Maybe try asking her what’s up. Then saying, “I wasn’t trying to badmouth you. I noticed you seemed to have too much on your plate and I was just trying to flag it to AM so they could see if you needed any help. I’m sorry if they took it differently. I’ll come to you directly in the future if it looks like you need help.”
      I think the wording could be better, but I think just talking to Sansa and owning it is the best path forward if you want it to go away.

      1. RagingADHD*

        I think this is the right thing to do.

        That doesn’t mean it will help. I’ve had this kind of thing go both ways. If Sansa is the kind of black and white thinker who’s decided you’re on her shit list, then you’re going to stay on the list until someone else does something to bump you off.

        If she’s a reasonable person who just got her feathers ruffled, it will help improve the situation. But regardless, it’s still good to do the right thing.

    2. I'm just here for the cats*

      yeah, sounds like Sansa’s being a jerk. Expressing concern about a coworker to your boss is normal and shows that you care. I wonder what the assistant manager said. I wonder, how did you express the concern to the boss and how did the boss explain this to Sansa? There’s a difference between you expressing genuine concern and gossiping. Saying “I’m concerned that Sansa is overworked and stressed and I’m wondering if there’s something that can be done to help her” and you saying “Sansa is snapping at everyone what can we do about that” are totally diffeent. I don’t think the boss shouldn’t have mentioned your name to Sansa.

      Could you maybe talk to Sansa and ask? Say that you would never gossip about her, but that you were bringing a concern to your manager.

      good luck

      1. Juniper*

        It’s not really normal though. There are very few situations I can think of where it would be appropriate for me to openly question the emotional well-being of a fellow coworker to our boss. There would have to be some serious concerns, directly impacting my work or my team’s performance. “Taking on too much” and “snapping” are the only examples we’re given in this case and yhe don’t pass muster. If the OP is personally affected by either of those behaviors then that’s one thing, but in general it’s best to stay out of how your boss manages his people.

    3. Omniscient but flawed*

      Have to say that you should have expressed concern and offer of support to Sansa before you went to someone else, possibly someone she reports to – assistant manager. Not sure why you expect her to pull you aside when you wouldn’t do the same for her. Sansa isn’t handling this well either, but I gather from your letter she is a coworker. You could have started there, and if it were me, I’d do the approaching and apologize to her.

    4. Chantel*

      “Sansa takes on too much work and then is overwhelmed. She then lashes out at people and it happens over and over.”

      Let the boss handle it, and ignore Sansa’s tantrums in the meantime.

      Just not your problem to manage.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I tend to agree. Some people identify as martyrs. If we try to take that identity away from them it really messes with their thinking. It’s seems to me that she likes being buried in work and complaining. Just my thought, though.

    5. Juniper*

      “I made the mistake of expressing concern”… that sounds like someone who is more upset about being caught than doing the thing. You got called out for gossiping and I think that’s fair. It’s not your place to management a colleague to your shared supervisor. If you have a personal problem, that’s one thing, but it sounds like you made it about Sansa’s behavior in a general sense. Apologize and move on.

  49. Krabby*

    I just want to say thanks to the people who commented on my question last week about telling my boss I’m pregnant and refusing to come into the office anymore (we’re a hotspot and in-office work isn’t actually necessary). It turned out, a person in another sub-team had just had the same conversation with her about a different medical issue so she told me to start staying home before I even had to bring it up :)

  50. I'm just here for the cats*

    So I am in an interesting position at work. I have a split position between 2 separate departments (university support staff, non instructional).

    My counterpart in one department, who is full time in the role, is leaving in June. It was suggested that I could possibly move into their role. However, this would mean that I would leave my other department. I did not give an answer and asked for a few days.

    I am leaning towards taking the position. It was what I had originally applied for, but I was offered the split position. My thoughts are, how do I talk about this with 2nd department boss. She is aware that I was offered the role. I haven’t been able to catch her since. I do love the work I am doing. I’ve learned so much and expanded my skills beyond what I thought I would ever use (database knowledge, other systems). But I really need the job to be 12 months, which the full time position is. My current split position is full time, but only for 10 months (academic year).

    I guess I’m just asking for advice on how to talk to my boss about this, show my appreciation for everything that I’ve learned.

    1. Chilipepper*

      Just tell her. I love working here and am so grateful for everything I have learned and I need a full time, 12 month position. She will understand!

    2. Binky*

      I think you can say a lot of what you said here. You can let her know that you’re taking a full time, full year position in department 1 starting on X date. And then you can thank her for giving you the opportunity to work with her. Tell her that you’ve loved the work you’ve done, and really enjoyed getting to expand your skills. And then you can ask if there’s anything you can do to help transition your role (and bring up anything you have thought of yourself).

      My only question is, would you prefer to stay with the second department, if they could give you a 12 month, full-time job? If so, maybe you can talk to her about that, or let her know you’d be interested in returning, if a full-time role ever became available?

    3. Wool Princess*

      I think you might be overthinking this a little. You don’t need to consult your boss about taking that job, especially if it’s an obvious improvement over your current role. Unless there’s internal politics I’m unaware of, you can just accept the offer and say to your boss something like “I’m grateful for my time here and all I’ve learned, but I really need a full-time, full year role so I am accepting X position.”

      A role like that seems like turnover would be common/expected if it’s not a full year role, especially if you were explicit about wanting a full year role when you applied.

    4. I'm just here for the cats*

      Thanks everyone! You are right that I’m overthinking it. This is truly the best job I’ve ever had as my past area were toxic workplaces. So my anxiety is up over this. We had a brief chat this afternoon on her way out to a meeting. Without me saying anything yet she said she supports whatever I decide. I truly love her (in a platonic, mentor type.of way)!!!

  51. Rusty*

    Sometimes I think I’m not good at letting myself be up managed by my direct reports. Other times I wonder if they aren’t doing it well. Maybe it’s both.

    I tend to be a person who will ask you less and less questions, trust you more and more, if you readily volunteer information and tell me things with information you anticipate me asking. When they don’t tell me things or tell me at the last minute, I get a little annoyed.

    I think I need to work through my annoyance privately of course, but I do also wonder if my expectation about how much they tell me is reasonable sometime.

    1. CaVanaMana*

      I get that if you’ve already set expectations for what needs to be brought to your attention and when or they’ve proven their knowledge about that, otherwise, you’re basically expecting mind readers. Also, how do you communicate when something is important? Do you show appreciation when the information is shared and for the timing? Is it made known that bring up the information or situation was the right thing? If no, it’s easy to think as a report, “boss didn’t communicate much when I bought this up previously, probably doesn’t need to be bothered with it now.” And second guessing the previous interactions.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Have you laid out some guidelines over what types of things you need to be told about?

      I am a tad concerned that you want them to volunteer info because they anticipate you asking for it. This teeters on asking them to mind read. It’s better to say up front what you want.

      Instead of acting annoyed use the dropped ball as a teaching moment. “Okay so I think we need to have a rule of thumb on this type of thing and here goes: When we run out of x I need to know right away because it takes 3 days to get x here.”
      In this example, I was able to get my crew to develop into excellent forecasters who would tell me four days ahead of time that we would need x by [four days later]. We did not run out of stuff.

      In the missing info example, I’d go with something to the effect of, “We need to know ABC because [reasons]. We all can be on the watch for ABC and please alert me when you see it.” If it’s a priority one alert let them know how they should get your attention immediately.

      I think if you separate trust from their ability to anticipate you will have an easier time of it. There are other ways to measure how trustworthy people are and some of those ways are probably more accurate than this one.

      One really good way to measure trust is to see how they respond by reporting when x is low or when ABC occurs. In these instances you will have point blank said, “I need x/ABC from you” if you don’t get it, then that can be a longer discussion.

    3. Pocket Mouse*

      I think it can help to tell them the kind of information you typically will want to know, since folks with different working styles will default to different approaches, like giving the bare minimum unless and until asked for more. For example: ‘When you give an status update on a project, please include both what’s been done and what will be done next, as well as any change in expected timelines.’

    4. AcademiaNut*

      I think you risk punishing people for displaying the behaviour you want to encourage.

      You want employees to be proactive in volunteering information, without you having to ask them first. However, if they do that, you then expect them to offer you *all* the information you want/need, and get annoyed if their mental list of “things to tell boss” is different from yours. However, an employee who doesn’t offer information and waits to be ask doesn’t risk annoying you by missing something.

      Ideally, it works as a two way street. The employee offers information, you listen, and if there’s something missing, or that you haven’t discussed, you ask them about it. But you, as the manager, need to keep that mental list of thing you want or need to know, and keep on top of it.

      Another thing to watch out for – it can be very easy to hide problems by proactively volunteering lots of information about other stuff. If you’re not paying attention, you think that the employee is on top of everything when there’s a major issue looming in the background. If you’re paying attention to the content of the information, not just the amount and frequency, and comparing it to your list of topics, you can spot the missing item.

  52. Inigo Montoya*

    I’m planning to retire from my job as a middle school principal in a year. One of my teachers has great leadership skills, and could be a good fit in this position. I’d like to start mentoring her to prepare her to (possibly, no guarantee!) take over when I leave. I’m thinking about just going through the calendar year tasks – this is what needs to be done in April, May, etc., and letting her hear my thinking in decision making, where appropriate.
    Questions: Is this inappropriate? Do you see any pitfalls or reasons not to do this? Any thoughts on the best way to do it?

    2. PollyQ*

      Do you know if your school board has a “promote from within” philosophy? It doesn’t sound like you have input into the choice of the next hire, so the first big pitfall is that you may be getting her hopes up when the school board is planning to hire someone with principal experience and there’s not much chance that it’ll pan out for her. The second pitfall is that she might not be interested in the position, but I assume you’d check with her first before starting the mentoring.

    3. Opalescent Tree Shark*

      I’m not sure what the culture of your district is, but I can tell you that where I am, 1. They have an informal golden staircase of people lined up to move into those positions and 2. This has the potential to cause a lot of internal strife if (or when) it is noticed that you’re doing this— people LIKE to believe the world is a fair meritocracy, even if it’s not. You may want to tread carefully bc showing “favoritism” to this teacher now may affect her ability to be successful at managing those same people if she DOES end up with the job next year!

    4. Inigo Montoya*

      Thanks for you responses!
      Private school, so no union. This teacher just completed a “district” wide leadership course, so it’s a natural follow up to that, but I appreciate the potential perception of favoritism. I’ll be careful of that. I will have input on choosing my successor, but it will be a team decision. I did make it clear that this is not a guaranteed shoo in, and I’m referring to “Whomever gets the spot.” In the end, the notes and thoughts I’m putting into meeting with her will be left for the next principal, and it will help to have someone ask the questions and clarify my thoughts. Thanks for your help!

      1. Double A*

        Oh, knowing you’re a private school with no union basically negates my answer. So disregard that :)

    5. Double A*

      Does she have the right credential for the job? And is she interested in doing it?

      My experience in districts is that it’s a pretty rigid hiring process that has be to “fair” and “transparent,” but that people absolutely get tapped to move into open positions. However, it’s both weirdly secretive (because you’re not supposed to do it, really) and political (the person doing that tapping needs to know how to work the system).

      So there are absolutely pitfalls to getting her hopes up, or promising anything. But you should know your district and its political situation to some extent. If you’re really small this might be less of an issue. But if she doesn’t have the right credential, it’s going to be moot until she gets it.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        >> is she interested?
        This is pretty key. There are people who do not want to leave teaching for administration. Just like there are people who want to be a subject matter expert, not a people manager. Please make sure she knows you’re not pressuring her into it.

  53. Milo’s Car*

    I’ve worked in customer service for the past 12 years, I’m good at it but I’m sick of it. I only have a high school education, I’m thinking of taking accounting classes because that’s what I’ve been doing lately at my job and I love being able to be in my office by myself paying the bills. Right now I’m working for a small business where I’m manager, sales, IT and AR/AP and feel like lately I’m not doing well in any of these roles. I’m just looking for a job where I can put my head down, excel, and not have to be scrambling to cover everyone else’s customer service jobs when they take a day off or have to be out of the office. This could just be a by product of working for a small business especially during covid and never being able to work from home. Love my coworkers and love my boss, I’m just feeling burnt out. Any suggestions? What careers are there that aren’t client facing? It’s probably obvious but at this point I can’t even think of anything.

    1. Unkempt Flatware*

      Well, I’m a program manager for a state government agency where I manage the funds that come to our state from the Feds for X Program. My customers are my colleagues and sometimes the local agencies needing construction of Program X. I love it. The best advice I can give you is not to allow yourself to be pigeon holed into customer facing roles just becuase you have experience doing it. Push back hard and every time someone says, “oh but we do have the front desk position open! You’d be good at that!”.

      1. The Prettiest Curse*

        As someone who got pushed a lot to do reception coverage in my last two jobs, I would push back by saying that I’ve done this in the past, I don’t feel that it’s one of my strengths and I didn’t really enjoy it.

        OP, I feel like you have a broad range of skills. Maybe you could look at operations roles? These often involve finance stuff but cover other areas too. I think you’re on the right path by looking at what you enjoy most about your current role. If there are any career counseling services in your area (or you may be able to find online services too, though check references and reviews first), it may help to talk to a career counselor. I had access to one after I was laid off and had no idea what kind of job I wanted to do and it was incredibly helpful.

    2. CaVanaMana*

      There’s lots but all jobs involve other people and that means doing a lot of the things you do in customer service roles. Ask yourself what is it exactly about customer service that has got you down? Is it the power dynamics? The complete idiocy of the general public? Company policies that defy logic and your sense of decency? Emotional drain? If you can narrow that down, you can narrow down what you want to do next or refocus your coping strategies to avoid further burn out.

      1. Milo’s Car*

        Oh my goodness thank you both for answering!!! You ask some really great questions. I love helping people and helping solve their problems but the emotional drain of constantly dealing with the public, constantly being “on” and dealing with the customer always being right is exhausting and that’s what I’d like to get away from.

        1. Quinalla*

          Sounds like a consulting role where you and the client(s) choose each other or a more internal facing role would be much more enjoyable. You should get breaks from being on, still be able to help, be mostly dealing with clients you can build relationships with or internal folks. Good luck!

    3. Nervous trans guy*

      I’m also trying to move out of customer service, and honestly the thing I’ve found the most useful in figuring out what to do is just looking at a LOT of job ads. When I first started looking, I literally started with no filters on my search, just all jobs posted in my area, and then clicked through to any with a title that sounded junior enough that I might qualify. After a while, I noticed I was starting to gravitate toward a couple specific types of jobs, and started to focus my search more on those. If you’re thinking of further education, a similar approach might help pinpoint what kind of degree or which classes might be the most useful for you too, if there are specific requirements that keep coming up in the ads you’re interested in.

      1. Milo’s Car*

        That’s an interesting suggestion about not even filtering ads to start with, just look at all of them. Thank you! I need to be doing more job searching and probably soul searching too.

    5. Krabby*

      If you have some vacation built up, I encourage you to take it in as big of a chunk as you can. Taking a few weeks can really help with your current burn out, and if you set aside even 6 hours over your time off to sit down and do some soul searching, you can come out with a plan that will make the day-to-day you’re currently struggling through a lot easier to deal with.

      Signed, someone who was two seconds away from rage-quitting her job before she took three weeks off, and now has a very fulfilling career in a different division of the same company

      1. Milo’s Car*

        Ooh I feel like rage quitting all the time! Congrats on the better career!! I only have 10 days PTO and several of those got sucked up during a major storm we had, lost power for a few days and my boss made me take PTO. Still a little salty about that one. But thanks for the hope there could be a better position for me out there!

    6. Natalie*

      I am an accountant and for what it’s worth, one of my favorite things is how broad the field is. Every organization has money! There are jobs where you interact with just your team, your team plus internal customers, external customers but they’re all business clients, individual tax clients, small businesses where you’re kind of doing everything, professional staff consulting where you’re doing specific time limited projects. If you’re interested in IT, there’s also AIS, where you essentially specialize in accounting software and need to know something of both.

      Outside of a smaller business and/or your first accounting role, you don’t generally have to cover other departments. You always know your busy times of the month/quarter/year, and the demand is strong. So if you are enjoying it I really encourage you to pursue the degree! Having some real world experience will be an asset as well. I did my accounting coursework as an adult student with AP/AR and some general ledger experience and it was so much easier.

      1. Milo’s Car*

        Thanks for the thoughtful encouragement! This is really motivating and I think the right direction for me.

  54. Anonymous Orchestra Player*

    The executive director of my professional orchestra, which plays a few concerts a year and is definitely not NY or Vienna Philharmonic-level, has recently decided that our orchestra will require all players to print their own music going forward. They will send everyone the pdfs in advance of the first rehearsal and require us to do all the printing ourselves. This is a HUGE break from a) what we’ve done in the past (mail parts to everyone) and from b) what other orchestras do (mail parts to everyone) and we’re trying to figure out a way to push back on this. The new procedure policy explicitly states that they will mail parts in extreme circumstances but that “not having a printer at home is not an excuse to request mailed parts.” This is ridiculous, of course, because the orchestra should absolutely 100% be absorbing the cost and time to print parts, and it’s absurd that they expect us players, who are only paid for our rehearsal and concert time and are already not paid for any time we spend practicing parts on our own, are expected to spend however much time it takes to print and collate/tape together parts without being paid for that either, and especially given that if you don’t have a printer at home you have to travel to another place with a printer and probably pay to print the parts.

    What can we do? We are all always afraid of being fired by the ED, who is a total jerk and has all the power here.

    1. Anonymous Orchestra Player*

      And yes, the orchestra has a librarian but he is an even bigger jerk who complains about everything he’s asked to do, so of course that’s why the ED wants to take this task off his plate. But the librarian is (supposedly) paid for printing and collating parts! That is – literally – his ONE JOB.

      1. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

        I suppose it would be worth holding a polite meeting with the ED to protest the decision, in which you provide statistics on other non-Vienna-level orchestras’ policies. And then when the ED cites economics, note how much could be saved by firing the librarian.

        But honestly it sounds like you’re stuck unless you have a line to the board.

        1. Slow Gin Lizz*

          Yeah, that’s what I suggested, a meeting with the ED (I am on the players committee, so I have a little more contact with him than an average orch member) but the board is mostly in his pocket, which is also disturbing and frustrating.

    2. Fellow Traveller*

      I’m guessing you are not part of a union, correct? I also work for an arts organization and I am represented by a union and there is absolutely no way this would fly.
      Do you have contacts at a union (AFofM?) who might be able to advise? I know my union, even in cases where they don’t have a bargaining agreement with a certain organization, they are always happy to talk and give advice to artists.
      It’s definitely something that everyone needs to collectively push back on, though. He can’t fire the whole orchestra, can he?
      Or, can they send the PDF to a printer, pay for it and have the members pick it up themselves? All print shops take things electronically these days. At least then you won’t have to pay for it. Which you absolutely shouldn’t do anyway.
      Also- actually isn’t there some kind of copyright violation here?

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        You are correct, we are not union. Many of us want to unionize and we were looking into it on the down-low but that has fallen by the wayside with [everything that has happened in the last year]. It’s tough to unionize but it sure seems like we need to, given this ED’s horrid behavior.

        See my answer to Jenn’s question below about copyright. I don’t think it’s technically a copyright violation.

    3. Unkempt Flatware*

      Reminds me of when I was a teacher and some principal decided the obvious way to save money is to hold paper hostage so no one could print. This is a common new-or-bad-leader move in schools which leads to negligible savings and very angry teachers. Also leads to teachers who are otherwise nice people starting to steal reams from fellow teachers and hoard.

      Based on my experiences, this idiot will give up once he sees performers trying to read music on their smart phones. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.

      1. Anonymous Orchestra Player*

        Would be nice if he gave up on the policy after seeing ppl reading from smartphones, but I suspect he’ll just double-down on it.

    4. Jenn*

      Copyright, Copyright, Copyright! Unless the orchestra has made special arrangements with the publisher, you can’t buy one copy of a piece of music, scan it and send it to everyone. This is one of the few cases I’ve seen come up on AAM where the answer to the question “is this legal?” is NO.

      1. Glomzarization, Esq.*

        This isn’t a copyright issue. The orchestra is not looking to print more than their usual allotment of copies permitted by their license of the work. Rather, the E.D. is moving the job of printing out everybody’s parts from the librarian to each individual musician. So the problem isn’t copyright. The problems are (1) the librarian not wanting to do their job, and (2) the musicians having to bear the cost of printing their own copies.

        1. Jenn*

          I missed the part about the librarian previously printing everything. I read it as in the past the orchestra would mail out the actual sheet music to the orchestra and that now they only want to purchase one copy, scan it, and send that scan out.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          Can the printing be bumped to a printshop and the organization be billed from the shop?

      2. Slow Gin Lizz*

        We do actually have the full published parts for these (or so they tell us) but they claim that since us musicians are lousy at returning original parts (true) (some of us) that they will only give out copies of the actual parts. And copyright rules supposedly allow this (I haven’t looked into this but I believe it to be true). Allegedly, as long as the originals are on the music stands during the performance then it’s legal to make photocopies for musicians’ use.

        Of course, the librarian has interpreted this to mean as long as the orchestra owns the parts and they are in the hall during the performance it’s legal, which I do NOT believe is true, but that’s just one of the many reasons why many of us are angry at him and the orch management.

        1. Jenn*

          One other thought – who has been given the license to print? If the license is in the name of the orchestra, asking the orchestra members to print it might violate the license.

          1. Anonymous Orchestra Player*

            Oooh, Jenn, that’s an excellent point! Thanks for bringing that up, I shall try to remember to push on that!

    5. Glomzarization, Esq.*

      Check your contract with the orchestra. Shifting the cost of printing and preparing your own copies to you is probably a change in your employment agreement. They are creating an additional task and cost that you should be compensated for.

      1. Anonymous Orchestra Player*

        ED wants to change the contract to include requiring us to print our own parts. You are correct that we absolutely should be compensated for our time and printing costs and I intend to push back on that, but I suspect I don’t have much pull here. And of course if this policy were to go through, orch members will likely be irate (they already tried to pull this a couple of years ago and orch members were, indeed, irate) but if we all rise up together, will they just say “tough beans, we’ll find new players who will do what we tell them to do”?

        1. Glomzarization, Esq.*

          One, I wonder how easy it actually is to replace a lot of orchestra musicians. Maybe it is? I’m sure it depends on a lot of factors peculiar to your location. While I’m not in an orchestra milieu myself (and not knowing your E.D.), I find it hard to believe that the E.D. would be so unwise as to fire some significant percentage of the orchestra all at once and have to replace them — this is about the time of year when the 2021-22 season would be announced, so it’s already been programmed with the current personnel, and their strengths and preferences in mind.

          Two, has your board of directors heard about this? Have they heard from the players, not just the E.D.? Hopefully your board includes one or two people who have been members of a professional orchestra. But even if not, actual players could make the board understand that what the E.D. is proposing is out of line.

          1. Anonymous Orchestra Player*

            Good point re: the board, though I do not believe any of them have been professional musicians. And it seems like most if not all of them are buddy-buddy with the ED, so going to them might not be a great idea if anyone is worried about their job, but it could be a good avenue if the ED doesn’t listen to us.

            This is an orch who fired our music director (conductor) a month before we started a new season (that he had planned) so I don’t think they much care about the strengths of the players, sadly, nor the optics of last-minute firings. And while you’re right that firing most of the orch would probably be a Very Bad Idea for them to try, they could easily weed out a few troublemakers each year by not renewing our contracts and over the course of a few years eventually replace us all. Orchestra positions are extremely competitive in our area so it wouldn’t be terribly difficult for them to replace us.

    6. Quandong*

      Hi there, I’m a music teacher and have had students both printing their music & reading it from devices while shipping of printed music has been slow.

      There is such a vast difference in print quality between ‘printed’ sheet music from the publisher, sheet music photocopied/printed on an expensive machine, and sheet music printed on a home printer. In my experience the home-printed music is often smudged or illegible in at least 2 places per page. Small print accidentals and grace notes are illegible. And erasing pencil marks can also smudge the print.

      This just leads to people not practising as much as they ought to. And to more mistakes than usual during performances. Reading from devices has limited functionality and also leads to misreads and errors.

      I would definitely push back as a group and point out the false economy here – it will waste time & resources to take the proposed path. I include wasted rehearsal time because it will definitely impact rehearsals – especially those who can’t be bothered to even attempt sticking pages together or putting them in a usable binder or folder.

      And if the librarian doesn’t like doing his literal job he is the person who needs to adjust (and ideally leave your orchestra for another position).

      1. Anonymous Orchestra Player*

        100%, Quandong. We would like to fire the librarian because he is the exact opposite of what an orchestra librarian should be (helpful, friendly, good at making parts) but the ED seems to like him a lot or maybe he’s a friend of the board president or something. He’s very defensive and cranky and I don’t understand why management thinks *he’s* the person they should be pleasing. Politics, man. I hate it.

        Your point about printing quality is a really good one and I shall bring that up in discussions. Thank you!

  55. Amber Rose*

    My workplace has changed a lot. It’ll always be low-key messed up I think, but it’s come a long way from the toxic hole that it was before (and just after) the feces hit the big rotating blades. And I thought I could be content with that, that it’s improved a lot and things seem to be getting better.

    But I’m starting to feel stuck. Every time I offload a task I don’t want, I get it back because the people who took it were promoted. The girl who has been here only 2 years is now in a supervisory role, whereas after 6 years I was just given a supervisor myself so I don’t even report directly to management anymore. I am given a lot of responsibility and trust and technically my title is a step up from before, but it feels like I’m always going to be bottom rung no matter what I do.

    I always though I wasn’t ambitious but I guess maybe I am a little. I don’t know, am I being unreasonable about things that aren’t really important?

    1. LKW*

      But clearly they are important to you, and that’s OK. It’s ok to have reasonable ambitions. So either your workplace doesn’t know that you want to move up the ladder, or they don’t believe that you possess the skills (or have demonstrated them) to move up. So if you have a supervisor now, talk to that person. Outline your goals and ask what skills you’d need to display to get there, ask if there is the possibility of getting there and if they will support you in that journey. If not, then yes, perhaps it’s time to move on.

      1. Amber Rose*

        My supervisor would have no idea since as a company, we have not really had anyone be supervisors before and our current structure is new. He’s only responsible for one third of my work anyway, which I think is where part of my frustration comes from. I hold three completely separate, independent roles and not one person in this company understands all three of them, so why should I report to someone who doesn’t even know what I do? I direct my own workflow entirely anyway.

        Which seems so damn petty when I type it out. Who cares where I fall on the org chart in the end? It’s not like anyone can pull rank with me, nobody would even try. But authority is necessary to get anything done, and I feel like the message that’s being sent to me and everyone else is that I don’t have any and that I have less even than someone who has been here less than half the time I have.

        1. Krabby*

          It’s not petty at all. It’s incredibly demoralizing to feel like you don’t have a path and like no one really knows what you contribute.
          LKW has the right idea. Talk to your supervisor, just try. If he can’t help, or at least bring in someone who can help, you should start looking elsewhere, because the writing’s on the wall.
          Also, sometimes it can be helpful to create your own path. Write out a job description for what you do now, then try writing one for what you want to do in the future (or pull the one for what you want to be doing). Figure out the gaps between where you are now and where you want to be, then discuss it with your manager. Do the work for them and you might find your manager gives in because saying no is no longer the path of least resistance.

    2. Cookies for Breakfast*

      I may give a different answer to someone who just focuses on comparing job titles. But reading that you’re feeling stuck in a messed up workplace makes me think you’re looking out for yourself, and that’s not unreasonable at all.

      I’m in a similar situation. I’ve been at my company longer than most of my colleagues, gained trust and responsibility along the way, and got the opportunity to move to a role that’s very in demand on the market. All well and good, if it weren’t that my actual tasks are nowhere near what other jobs with the same title expect. I have a supervisor who micromanages me and doesn’t delegate, in the name of looking “in control” with dysfunctional higher-ups. The work he leaves to me is repetitive, nobody cares to use my knowledge about improvements customers have needed for years (that I thought got me the promotion), and I don’t’ see any of that change, like, ever.

      I’m not ambitious, either. I just want to have a shot at new jobs out there, both to get out of where I am, and do work that suits me better – but I don’t have enough experience and results to show for myself, because at my workplace I’m pigeonholed somewhere I should no longer be. Maybe that’s part of where you’re coming from, too?

      1. Amber Rose*

        Oof, yeah.

        I stick my nose into everything because I’m curious, and consequently I am the go-to for way too much stuff. Since I’m good at everything, they never want me to stop doing anything, and I never get to focus on any other things. Or even any one thing.

  56. Rara Avis*

    I work in a field that requires immense patience for client interactions. I am not a patient person by nature, but I like my work, so I cope – usually. But this is not a usual year, and spring is hard even in a good year. I’m basically at BEC stage with stupid questions and the inability to follow directions. What are your favorite techniques for keeping your cool in the face of extreme provocation? (There are some emails I need to ignore for 24 hours until I can write something appropriate and not what I really think.)

    1. CaVanaMana*

      Write down or say aloud what you really think and feel first and keep that to yourself or maybe rant it out with a trusted colleague. If you’re on a call, mute yourself. If you’re at a computer, open up notepad and have it out while the client talks. Then put yourself into the work headspace and play the character.

      Learning patience starts with being patient with yourself. Give yourself space to be impatient.

    2. Cat Tree*

      If it’s by email, that makes it a little easier. Sometimes I will write the reply and delete the “To” field so I can’t accidentally send it. Then I come back later in the day and edit it to something more polite before actually sending it. But your strategy of waiting 24 is also a good one if that meets timing expectations.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I’m dealing with a lot of stupid questions and a lot of inability to follow instructions.

      I think it is helpful to find reasons to empathize with the person. I picture myself calling- I dunno- a car repair place and they have to patiently explain to me how cars work so I can understand why mine needs $500 in repairs. Thinking of times where people have been unnecessarily patient with me can be helpful.

      Our systems have been pretty screwed up. I can drag up some empathy for people just on the basis of how hard it is to follow what we are supposed to be doing today. “Oh that was yesterday’s rule, but today we have a new rule….”

      Our minds are not our own. Covid has been filling value brain space with worry/fear/doubt. This makes it hard to process things that we would ordinarily process. I see this all over the place with people saying, “I can’t believe I forgot, I am not ordinarily like this…” If you think about it, you, too, are suffering the Covid brain-drain. You have to put so much energy into others that the energy you would have used to be patient does not exist anymore.

      Brings me to my next point. Energy has to come from some place. We can’t just demand more out of ourselves and get it. Energy comes from rest and good whole foods- proteins and fresh fruits and veggies. Take a hard look at your self-care and think about ways to put fuel (energy) back into your life/ your day.

    4. beach read*

      I recommend the HEAT method of problem resolution. It served me well for many many years of working with the public.

  57. Unkempt Flatware*

    I always wondered what the AAM commenters would think of this experience I had once at a Best Buy. How do you feel about this manager’s actions?

    It was the holiday season and it was pretty busy. Nothing too crazy. The manager was prominently standing atop a tall rolling stair case that you would use in the back room to get very high inventory. He was making a show of watching everyone to ensure customers were being helped by constantly scanning and searching the store. However, it was very creepy feeling that no matter where you went in the store, this guy was able to watch you. And he was. In general, I think it feels gross when I hear a manager discipline an employee in front of customers and this, for some reason, felt the same. What say you?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      It’s weird. I mean, honestly, if my manager were doing this, I wouldn’t mind, but from a customer perspective, it’s odd. There isn’t really a way for the manager to do that for the employees without also doing it for the customers.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      Um, why wasn’t he also helping customers? When I worked retail, when slammed the manager was expected to pitch in. Not only is this creepy, it’s not doing his job.

    3. Malarkey01*

      I mean it probably looked really goofy but in most stores every square inch is covered by security cameras. When I worked big box retail it was normal for one of the managers to be reviewing screens to manage things like more cashiers to the front or on god someone just knocked over an entire display radio 3 people do go help clean up.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I find it very odd that BB did not have a CCTV installed and had to resort to this. I mean they are BB….

      I think that CCTV is creepy. So ladder viewing is a creepy PLUS lazy. I guess if I wasn’t too tired when I got home, I would have dashed off an email to BB to complain.

    5. Krabby*

      Not gonna lie, I thought this was going to end with, “he was up there so he could keep an eye on customers and make sure that no one was abusing/screaming at staff.” Friday Good News must have gone to my head, haha.
      Anyway, I’d say that if he was making it obvious he was monitoring employees, he was an A grade douche.

  58. Jerk or Harassment?*

    I am a middle manager dealing with an employee (Wakeen) who works in the next division. If he was in my division, I would be his boss, structure-wise. Our paths do not cross often, but each time they do, he is openly hostile. I recently found out that Wakeen has been making complaints against me directly to HR for the past 18 months (!!) that have all been quashed because they were untrue. (For example, he saw me out once during the day and claimed I was defrauding the company by claiming a remote day when I was really running errands. On the day in question, I was on PTO.) This came to a head last week when we had a company-wide meeting. I was required to give a presentation, and after I did, Wakeen started yelling questions and making argumentative statements that were not related to what I was presenting. Another supervisor stepped in and tried to stop it, but Wakeen kept talking over him and only stopped when he ran out of material. We all took a break, then came back. I have been approached by three separate supervisors in different divisions about the incident, and that’s when I found out about the HR complaints.

    This morning my supervisor dropped in and made a remark about it. I asked him how the company was going to handle Wakeen’s behavior; he said it had been handled in the meeting, when his comments were stopped. I pushed back and said no, that’s not what happened, and that I recently found out about some sort of long-standing pattern of behavior he’s engaged in. The supervisor knew about the complaints and said that they had been handled by being quashed. He said it wasn’t against the rules for Wakeen to make complaints, if he really thought I was doing all of those things.

    I have no relationship, personal or private, with Wakeen. I have never worked directly with Wakeen. I am really stunned by the fact that he’s apparently been…harassing me, I guess? For the last year and a half? I appreciate the fact that my work history and other relationships have protected me so far, but now that I know about all of this, what should I do? FWIW, Wakeen is a man, I am a woman, and this is a male-dominated profession. I’m the only woman supervisor in my division. I suppose I don’t know whether that’s related, but Wakeen has never acted this way with another supervisor, as far as I can tell. This feels really personal, but I have no idea why it would be.

    HR is clearly aware of the history of untrue complaints. Every supervisor in the company is now aware of the hostility Wakeen has for me. No one thinks this is a problem, apparently. Is it time to just look for another job?

    2. Slow Gin Lizz*

      WHOA. That’s appalling. Have you spoken directly with HR? Because this sounds like an HR situation for sure.

    3. Construction Safety*

      You to HR: ” I would like to make a formal complaint about the harassment Wakeen has been directing at me.”

      1. RagingADHD*

        Yup. And yours is true.
        I mean, it’s hard to characterize the complaints as “harassment” before this point, because you didn’t even know about them. But now you do, and the way he acted in the presentation was certainly harassing.

        I wonder what on earth is going on with him. I guess you represent something to him that has nothing to do with your actual work, behavior, or personality. Maybe it’s solely about gender, or maybe he’s projecting something from his personal life onto you.

        Did you dramatically ruin his family’s fortunes in some Dickensian way? Do you have an evil twin?

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      Well, you can’t complain or request that action be taken in response to the HR complaints (which you didn’t even know about) because that would be retaliation for making HR complaints. So take that off the table. Look at his behavior, pretending that his HR complaints never happened. Is the way he behaves towards you so obnoxious as to be worthy of complaint? I mean, I think his behavior in the presentation was truly awful, but everyone saw it and it seems like they interpreted it correctly. I know that the HR stuff feels really personal — I had a guy make an HR complaint against me for harassment when the “harassment” consisted of me pointing out that he was making mistakes that put the company at risk, and gosh, was I mad! But you really, really can’t base a complaint against someone based on them making HR complaints, especially when it sounds like all of those complaints were resolved appropriately. Honestly, it sounds like if you just act professionally and keep above the fray, Wakeen is well on his way to self-destructing.

      1. Student*

        He’s been doing this for 18 months, with no consequences. Now he’s emboldened enough to harangue her in a company-wide meeting. For which he suffered no consequences. He’s not on the path to self-destructing. He’s playing the odds and the long game to take down Jerk or Harassment?.

        Once there’s enough turnover in HR or somewhere in management, one of his complaints against Jerk or Harassment? will stick, or the sheer volume of complaints will convince some sucker that “where there is smoke, there’s fire.” Even if you are bad at throwing darts, if you throw enough eventually you’ll hit the board.

        So, my advice – start playing the game to keep him contained or get him punished. Report him when he is hostile to you. Get your boss involved. Get his boss involved. Get HR involved. Keep a running log of issues, and when necessary, get a lawyer involved. Avoid touching the HR complaints he’s made against you if at all possible, per the other posters, because they are right that it won’t get you progress – but complain when he is hostile to you, every single time.

        And, yes, look for another job. At this rate, he will win – it’s just a matter of time. You might be able to turn things around by fighting it, but from your description of how your colleagues are reacting, I doubt it. Your male co-workers who like you do not like you enough to close ranks with you; you aren’t part of their little tribe, but he is. His bad behavior will be tolerated – but any misstep on your part is going to get you slammed. It’ll wear you down eventually. It sucks. There are better places. You can’t fix this one, but you can probably find one that values you more.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I agree. I think you have a real problem here, OP. I wish you had emailed Alison on this one. He failed to even listen to his own supervisor.
          A couple things that jumped at me:
          I’d try to find out if he has done this to anyone else. And I be sure to mention that you believe it is because you are a woman as you have no to tiny contact with this person otherwise.

          The next thing that jumped at me is the 3 people who approached you. They sound like they could be potential allies in helping you choose your next steps. I’d be tempted to go back and have a longer talk with at least one of them if not all three.

          I’d also consider saying to HR that I did not feel safe. But that would be after I had collected up more facts if possible.

          In the end, I agree with Student. He has been doing this for 18 months and HR does not see that he is targeting you? It’s not up to you to teach HR or TPTB how to do their jobs. Your number one responsibility is to put yourself in a safe and healthy work place.

      2. Can Can Cannot*

        You absolutely can complain about FALSE statements by Wakeen. You can also file a lawsuit if Wakeen made false statement that defame you. OP certainly has the right to escalate her complaints about these false statements and harassment. I would recommend talking with a lawyer.

    5. GreenFields*

      “Our paths do not cross often, but each time they do, he is openly hostile.”

      At what point did you bring it up to his supervisor? Or your supervisor if that person didn’t respond?

      The HR complaints that he made against you are bizarre, and his behavior at the presentation is appalling. But I’m not sure how it made it this far without you saying something.

      1. J/H OP*

        After looking through the archives here, I think he’d be described as “a jerk who is good at his job.” He is known as difficult, so when I have complained, his boss has just shrugged and said “That’s just the way he is.” Plus, most of these interactions have been one on one, so there’s “no proof.” This incident at the meeting was the first time he has done this in front of other people.

  59. All the cats 4 me*

    Throwing this out for discussion – this is firm-wide message sent out by the head of the firm last week:

    As we are all aware, Vaccines are becoming more available on a daily and weekly basis. In order for the world, our communities, and Avail to get back to a new normal, it is clear that Vaccines are going to make a huge difference.

    So, I have created the Herd Immunity Pool (HIP) to help us track our progress towards getting ahead of Covid. Here is the idea:

    I would ask that each of you that gets vaccinated let me know via Teams or Email. I will keep your name private.
    For each team member that gets vaccinated, we will put funds into a pot, and the team member’s name will be put in for a draw (I will maintain confidentiality of course).
    I will keep all of you updated on the number of vaccinated team members.
    When we hit a 70% immunity percentage, I will pull one name, and that team member will get ½ of the funds in the pot at that time. (I will leave it up to that team member to decide whether I announce their name.)
    Herd immunity is estimated to occur at somewhere between 80% and 90% from what I have read.
    Accordingly, once we hit 85%, I will pull out one more name to get the remainder of the pot!
    And more importantly, we will have created a safer environment for all of us.
    I realized this a bit of a shameless plea for team members to get vaccinated, but I have already done so myself and I am comfortable with asking all of you to consider the same.
    Also, lets have some fun with this as hopefully we will never have to do so again!

    In case any of you are interested in the math, we have approximately 95 FTE (full time equivalents). Oh, and I plan to put $60 per vaccinated team member into the pot (and I might round up a bit).
    And when things are done…we can all cheer “Hip Hip Hooray!” (OK…a poor attempt at a pun I realize).
    In the meantime Wash your hands, often. Sanitize frequently and thoroughly. Social distance. Wear your mask.
    If you are feeling unwell, stay home, and arrange to get tested as soon as possible.
    P.S. I realize that given how young you are as a team…. vaccines will not be available until May for many of you at the earliest….so that is why I haven’t sent this out before now.

    I don’t know how I feel about it personally – it’s a great incentive to get people vaccinated! OR it’s inappropriate and oversteps boundaries!

    What say you?

      1. Reba*

        Yeah, I’ve been putting off informing my workplace … but I’m also going to go get my free donut soon, so [shrug]?

        My organization is asking people to inform an overarching “task force” — that distance feels more comfortable to me then, hey shoot a message to your boss.

        All that said, we are talking about it amongst ourselves, but somehow reporting it in a scheme like this seems weird ish still.

    2. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      I would resist sharing private medical information with my boss, so yes, I think this does overstep, but it sounds like he means well. Up to you whether you have any interest in participating.

    3. katz*

      Yeah, not the worst COVID response I’ve heard. My boss wants us to self-report when vaxxed, but since it was a request and not a directive, I have no intention of letting him know.

      1. RagingADHD*

        I’m curious about this thought process. I know a number of people feel this way. Why would you want to conceal whether or not you got vaccinated?

        And is it only for work, or would you not tell friends & family either?

        1. Twisted Lion*

          Some dont want to tell there boss for a few reasons. One: if you cant get it because of medical conditions that you dont want to share with your work. Two: they might decide if you are in a WFH environment that means you should come in 100% even if you live with people who are at risk/cant be vaccinated.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            #2. I’m rather strident that there’s nothing for people under 16 yet. And with the variants showing up, exposure is an increased risk. (I’ll spend my increased risks for things like a dental visit, not an office.)

        2. Ontario Library Employee*

          I’m getting vaccinated on Tuesday because my province just moved pregnant people to the highest risk category. I’m only 35 and I don’t have any health issues, so that’s the only reason I’m eligible right now. Telling anyone I’m vaccinated is pretty much announcing I’m pregnant. I’m about ready to announce anyway, so I told a coworker I just booked my vaccination yesterday, and her response was a careful “I saw a certain group was bumped up in priority yesterday, so congratulations!”

          We haven’t even told our parents yet, so I will l definitely hold off on telling anyone my vaccination status for another week or two.

      2. TiffIf*

        Pretty much everybody at my work has been announcing when they’re getting vaccinated. I told my team a few weeks ago “I’m getting my second vaccination shot on Tuesday so I may be out on Wednesday, depending on how I react.” Earlier this week a co-worker said “I’ll be out for a bit mid-afternoon while I get vaccinated.”

        Most people have been pretty open about it. Which has actually surprised me because I live in an area where there are a significant number of people who are anti-vax. Maybe the people who aren’t on the vax train are just keeping quiet.

        So the hesitancy around sharing seems odd to me–but I also see vaccination (including the yearly flu shot) not really as private medical information in the same category as I would see like a medical procedure or a condition. Vaccinations are more…universal? Like you would be sharing more private information about yourself if you said you couldn’t get vaccinated because of a health issue.

        Now a few caveats on this–my state opened vaccinations to everyone above 16 a month ago, so any hesitancy about disclosing vaccination status because only certain groups/health conditions were eligible was eliminated earlier than in some other places.

        Secondly, my job has been super good about not requiring anyone to return to the office yet. We’re still in Phase 1 of our return to office plan, which was initially started last August and then was suspended as the fall and winter surge arrived, and which includes no more than 50% of people and is wholly voluntary. I’m part of phase 3 which is full reopening and I have absolutely no clue when that will be. So I have no concerns about if my supervisor will ask me to return earlier knowing I am vaccinated.

    4. JustaTech*

      I mean, they say they aren’t going to announce names at either drawing, so it doesn’t seem like a privacy violation. And since it’s a drawing and not a guaranteed payment, then there’s less of the ethical issue of “getting paid to have a medical treatment” which people are (reasonably) leery of.

      And since they’ve explicitly said they waited until everyone is eligible (even if they can’t actually get their shot for a while yet) that even side steps the whole “and what’s wrong with you that you could get your shot already?” thing.

      So while I wouldn’t necessarily call it a *great* incentive, I don’t think it oversteps at all. If someone doesn’t want to participate they don’t have to and it won’t be obvious because only two people are winning and even that might not be announced with names. Honestly, it feels like the head of your firm really thought about this and tried to balance a fair incentive with privacy, which is more than a lot of places have done.

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My org’s president has announced that he, personally, will be splitting a donation of a certain dollar amount per self-reported employee vaccination among three local charitable funds, including our org’s employee assistance fund, as of Memorial Day. Our state opened vaccinations to everyone over 16 at the beginning of the month (plus we’re a hospital system, so many many frontline workers) and we have over 30,000 employees. The self-reports don’t go to him, they go to our employee health department (same people who handle our mandatory flu vaccinations, TB testing, etc), and he’ll just be getting a total from them at the end of the timeframe. I’m personally wholly in favor, reported my own completed vax last week, and I’m hoping my coworkers and I put a bit of a dent in his pocketbook come the end of May. :)

    6. Qwerty*

      Strong dislike. Not only is he openly soliciting medical information, but this is basically a company bonus that is tied to medical information. People with underlying conditions that can’t get a shot will feel pressured to reveal their medical information to prove they aren’t holding out.

      I’ve been very open about my shot dates with my team/manager (not that I could have hidden it given how badly I reacted) but I still wouldn’t participate in this list. There’s a lot of better ways to encourage people to get vaccinated (like giving PTO to recover from the shot and making it clear that deadlines are flexible so people actually use it)

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep, yep, yep. And that “pot” is taxable income.

        I think he means well but it’s too big brother for me.

    7. NRG*

      They should name it the “Herd Immunity Pool Auspicious Award” just for fun. (Yes I know it’s not a violation).

    8. beach read*

      I wouldn’t see this as an incentive (An incentive that ultimately benefits only 2 of the 95 employees they want vaccinated?) but I don’t think it’s overstepping or inappropriate. Head of firm sounds well meaning.

  60. Vladimir*

    I hope I did not post this yet. Sometimes I am still baffled, by what companies think is a good idea to post. Some three years ago I was looking for a job in IT and found a position I liked, good job, benefits, company also looked inclusive, in contrast to some other IT companies employing a lot of women, so I was interested. I opened about us and there were pictures from their teambuildings. And one of the pictures changed my mind about the company = on the pictures there was a women, naked, with her most private parts cowered by palm leaves and sushi was layed out on her body. I mean what does it show to their employees, especially women if they degrade a woman to a furniture? I immediately decided not to apply. recently I decided to check if they still have the picture there, they do. What do this people think:?

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      The “eating sushi off of women” thing was a fad for a while, but I think most people quickly realized that it was awful. I would think very, very bad thoughts about a company that posted such a picture as part of “teambuilding.” That would tell me everything I needed to know about those clueless dude bros.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Ew. Who would think that’s a good thing to do in a work context in the first place, and who would think that’s going to attract good candidates?
      Though, I suppose if “naked women” is considered a job perk, it’s better to put it right up front than to pretend the company is normal and has a sense of decency.

      1. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

        This. These are the people who still take clients to strip clubs for business lunches. No thanks.

    3. Llama face!*

      I’m saying an Alison “Wow.” to that company. They certainly wouldn’t get my employment or my business.

    4. Agree with Vlad*

      Whoever posted this thought it was cool / part of the teams culture and was looking for someone who would also appreciate team building activities that included mostly naked women. And either no one had escalated the photo or HR/management had seen/heard of the photo and took no action.

      I agree that is not appropriate and would be happy to see this before applying so I wouldn’t waste my time.

    5. The Prettiest Curse*

      Yeah, this was skeevy and weird and a big red flag. Many years ago, I worked in a bookmakers’ (off track betting). There was only one bathroom at one of the locations and it had a picture of a semi-naked woman as decoration. I was creeped out by that (I’m female), but the job involved lots of low-level sexual harassment from customers, so the bathroom decoration reflected the overall working environment. (For context: it was about 80% male staff and 90% male customers.) Luckily, it was only a temp job so I just bit my tongue for the duration.
      Honestly, I think it’s a bit strange to display pictures of semi-naked people in the workplace or on company websites/social media, unless it’s somehow an inherent aspect of the business. I’ve worked in offices where other women had pictures of shirtless men on display and I didn’t think that was okay either. But a photo of sushi being eaten off a naked woman? No, nein, nyet and non.

  61. Still an Individual Contributor*

    A few weeks ago my team was talking about how much the team has grown and that we need an assistant manager. I am one of three senior employees on the team, but I have literally more experience than the other two seniors combined. That said, I have little interest in being a manager, and pretty much everyone knows it, including our manager whom I have told explicitly (though only as recently as last summer). I am also the only team member with children and this last year has been hard getting my individual contributor work done; I couldn’t even imagine taking on new responsibilities.

    I was thinking about recommending both of my fellow seniors for the job, but I talked to my wife first and she dissuaded me from doing so because she thinks I should go for the role instead (just to progress my career; we are more than fine financially and don’t need more money). So I didn’t do anything. Today, our manager announced that one of the other seniors had expressed interest in the position, so the company is going to work on promoting them. I am slightly jealous that the opportunity will be closed to me, but also relieved that the situation was resolved without my involvement.

    1. JustaTech*

      I’m not sure why you would apply for a job you don’t want?
      Does your company have a career growth pattern for individual contributors, or does everyone have to go into the management track? Could you talk to your manager about what career progress looks like outside of management (to address the feeling of jealousy, which I get)?

      Because there’s nothing wrong with not wanting to be a manager, and a lot right with recognizing that it isn’t your skill set. As someone who’s worked under too many mangers who would have been better staying ICs but couldn’t, I have tremendous respect for everyone who chooses to *not* become a bad manager. It sounds like you made the right choice.

      1. Still an Individual Contributor*

        HR is supposedly working on a new ladder system which should have a new rung for me to climb when it comes out.

        Right from when I start, upper management told me that there’s no difference in prestige or compensation between senior vs. manager (all else being equal). I think to specifically avoid the issue you describe – someone seeking a manager position just for the promotion, when they aren’t interested and maybe aren’t very good at the management parts of the job.

        And we do have someone who’s been happily painting llamas as an individual contributor for more than 10 years at the company. I’ve even seen someone step down (or sideways, given the previous paragraph) from a manager position when he decided it wasn’t for him. I could be perfectly happy painting llamas myself for a while now, occasionally learning how to use new types of paint or take a herd-level (big picture) view of things.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      That dual thinking stuff is such a pain in the butt. I do think that it can be a bit of a self-check. We can be checking ourselves to make sure we are on the path that is best for us.
      And it sounds like you are. Hold out for what you planned for and want.

  62. Anon for this*

    Within a couple months, I will either have my 40 hour a week contract converted to a salaried employee position, or I will be job hunting, because I’m not currently getting any of the benefits that would make an otherwise horribly stressful job tolerable.

    If they do manage to submit the paperwork to hire me full time, how do I approach negotiating starting off with PTO days accumulated? I’ve been here for years, and the one advantage of my contract is that if I want to take a day off, as long as I can afford to not be paid for not working those hours, I can. It would be nice to be able to either start with a few days accrued, or not have to wait 90 days to take PTO, or both, but what is a reasonable number to ask for?

  63. Academic glass half full*

    Colleague is angry with me because I didn’t support his bid for promotion.

    So let’s say I am on a promotion committee reviewing dossiers for promotion to full professor.
    We have 3 from our College this year.
    I am the newest person having just been promoted to full last year.
    The three- first is outstanding, no questions, fabulous letter, amazing service, groundbreaking research, peer reviewed publications, insightful personal essay, over the top commendation letter from her direct supervisor, extraordinary impact with evidence within the dossier to support promotion.
    Number two- Good enough, outstanding letters of recommendation. outstanding letter from their director. well organized dossier with evidence of meeting criteria for promotion. AND a letter of recommendation from the Dean (who actually makes the promotion decision with a recommendation from the committee)

    Number three- A colleague in my same specialty- letters of recommendation are just short of enthusiastic, dossier not well organized, not in the required format, lacking easily recognizable support data for promotion, documentation of promotional materials (like publications) are without context, personal essay meandering. Long gaps in productivity and service without explanation. Obvious that this individual did not avail themselves of the many workshops, mentorships, advisors put in place to guide the process. Immediate supervisors letter just okay. (knowing that they were thinking of going up for promotion, I had offered to review their dossier before submission, they declined.)
    Did I think their work and service to the university deserved a promotion. Yes. Did I think that their material supported a promotion. No. I voted no.
    Number three- did not get promoted to full. It was an overwhelming majority for no. They did get a letter from the dean requesting that they refile the next year and work with a mentor to strengthen their case.

    I reached out to number 3. They knew I was a no vote. I said that I was willing to help in anyway I could (information to why it was no, what they needed to do to get a yes)
    Paraphrasing- basically they felt my no vote was a betrayal of them. That it showed a lack of respect for them and their work. (not true, although I was a bit upset that they presented so badly when I knew that they could have with a little more effort or asking for help)
    They have communicated that it is too painful to be in contact with me. They ignore my work related e-mails. They do not speak to me in meetings. In a recent meeting, my direct supervisor (his supervisor) has indicated to me that she had expected me to vote yes. (Perhaps she should have told me to do that? She did not. Is this something everyone knows but me? Another colleague from our specialty voted no)
    Now what?
    My “What would Alison do?” inner voice says that his behavior is unprofessional and to just leave it alone.
    The meetings are supposed to be confidential therefore I couldn’t talk to him about the issues. In retrospect, I wish I ignored his damn dossier and voted yes. I am sad and angry.
    Is this on me? Am I the A** h***?

    1. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      This is on him. You did what was right for the institution, which signs your paychecks. You offered to help him even though you didn’t think he’d done a good job or taken advantage of available help.

      It may have been that the wound was still too raw, and that you would find him more receptive in a couple of months. Or it may be that he’s just a dillweed and thinks he’s too special to have to present a well-ordered dossier. I don’t think you should feel any kind of guilt or anger about this. He can get happy in the same pants he got mad in.

    2. FD*

      You’re not the jerk, however, you should respect the person’s request to give them space if you’re able to do so. If they decide they want your help, they know where to find you. (If they’re ignoring work related emails that make it hard for you to get your job done, that’s another matter, but it sounds like it’s more that a previously warm colleague cooled to you.)

    3. Anonymous Alt-Ac*

      This is 100% on your colleague and this type of faculty bad behavior is part of why I fear tenure is going to be abolished at many institutions soon. Going up for full professor means they knew the procedures so it wasn’t a junior TT faculty member floundering. They were provided a great deal of support, it sounds like, in preparing the dossier. But they apparently — and if “they” = “he,” I bet there’s gender issues involved here — decided they didn’t need any help and could put together a substandard dossier but still be promoted.

      Oh look, it’s the consequences of their own actions! And with a majority vote, it’s definitely not on you and you are NTA. You voted based on the merits of the dossier with which you were presented, which is what you are supposed to do AFAIK from my alt-ac/former staff perspective.

      What’s worse, the egregious “it is too painful to be in contact with me. They ignore my work-related emails. They do not speak to me in meetings” behavior is the kind of childish tantruming that, when it winds up in IHE or the Chronicle, riles up boards of trustees and state legislatures into “Why do these spoiled brat do-nothing faculty have jobs for life? Let’s get rid of tenure and make them work for a living or be fired like the rest of the world!” mindsets regardless of the accuracy of said mindsets. Staff would be fired for cause for this garbage even prior to the pandemic.

      If they are being offered a second chance PLUS help to resubmit the dossier, then they should grow up, stop being a jerk, and do the damn thing to the standard the committee needs to see the next time. Y’know, the way students have to redo assignments when not up to par?

      I would ignore them but be careful to document any of their behavior (ignoring emails, etc.) that is impeding your ability to do your own job. Particularly if it’s affecting students. That IMO should be a consideration in promoting someone to full. If they’re willing to screw over their colleague in revenge for a no vote, how can they be trusted with the nigh untouchable status that a full tenured professor has at most institutions?

    4. JustaTech*

      Oh for goodness sake. Your colleague is completely unreasonable.

      You weren’t the single tie-breaking vote; it was an overwhelming majority. Is 3 not speaking to the rest of these people as well? Or are they being professional with the more senior people and only a jerk to you?

      I can understand why 3 isn’t ready to re-do their dossier with you just yet; I’m sure being turned down for tenure hurt a lot. But even that doesn’t give you leave to lash out at the colleagues who’s support you need (and to keep up a snit that interferes with work for weeks!).
      As for your supervisor – ugh, this sounds like academic politics, which are Byzantine on the best days. I would be tempted to have a meeting and say “if you need for me to vote yes rather than look at the packet, please tell me so directly, verbally.” But that probably won’t fly and I’m no good at negotiating that kind of stuff (one of the reasons I’m not in academia).

      I’m sorry your colleagues are putting all this on you; it’s absurd.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      This person didn’t do the documentation necessary to make his case. They had the opportunity to do so many time over, from the sound of it, and couldn’t be bothered. They didn’t deserve a “yes” vote if they didn’t put in the required effort to support their application. Their work and service qualify them for consideration and likely approval, not guaranteed approval.

      I would argue that if they couldn’t be bothered to put their materials in the right shape for the application, they’re not going to bring any additional effort to a full professor role. And that should be disqualifying. It’s not a technicality, it’s a reflection of their willingness to invest their own time and effort.

      I’m sorry your supervisor seems to be taking their side; would your supervisor really have overlooked a subpar tenure package like that?

    6. Snarky Librarian*

      I would invest WAY less of your time and energy in your colleague’s promotional opportunities. He knows what he needs to do to be promoted and has been offered mentorship and assistance by the dean. You offered up your time and help before the committee met and he turned you down. His failure is 100% on him and now you know he is not someone to expend your energy on.

      And it is completely unprofessional of him to be ignoring your work e-mails. The committee made the right call declining to promote him! I would pull all the way back from him and his drama and be icily polite from now on, no more special help or handholding.

    7. Qwerty*

      You made the right call in your vote but need to back off! You can’t care more about getting him to succeed than he does. The coworker wasn’t willing to do any of the effort and his behavior afterwards only confirms that you made the right decision. He is refusing to respond to work emails! If this is him on his best behavior in an untenured position, how can you trust him to be accountable once he has the safety of tenure?

      As for your supervisor, if she really wanted the guy promoted, then she should have written a decent letter in support of that. When she said she “expected” you to vote yes, do you mean that as “she assumed I’d vote yes” or “she was directing me to vote yes”. Being pressured on how to vote by your supervisor sounds like a huge breach of ethics – does academia have a place for you to flag that to? The supervisor did not do her part, she doesn’t get to blame you. It feels a bit retaliatory to me for her to pressure you for not voting the way she wanted.

    8. Academic glass half full (pronouns, she, her)*

      Thank you everyone. I could weep right now because of your support. I was desperately searching for columns and articles in higher ed blogs and journals for “I was the colleague who voted no for promotion.”
      I have felt very much alone in this as the meetings are supposed to be confidential and had no one I could reflect with. I had one-on-one phone calls with committee members before the vote just see if I was way off base in my evaluation of his packet or criteria. I asked if I can bring information to the meeting not evidenced in the dossier like observations of mentorship, teaching etc. The answer was sure but the weight is on the packet evidence. I asked to review 3 other packets of people promoted in the last five years. (since I had only seen the one of my mentor) They were consistently excellent and met the criteria. One was of someone who mentored him two years ago. She said she was surprised that he hadn’t taken her advice on revision.
      Yes the colleague is a man. Yes, the consensus was the packet’s lack of cohesion and support. That it felt like he could just skate in on “time served.”
      That said- he has been a very supportive colleague during my very short time at the institution. I went up early for tenure and for Full three years later. (I was told by HR that my tenure packet would have qualified me for Full and made sure that over the next two years I demonstrated that I continued to meet the criteria.)
      Thank you for reminding me that I will continue to be on this promotion committee next year.
      I don’t believe he is treating anyone else like this but that said, I am the only one in his specialty.
      The question of loyalty came up from a colleague who is now retired who felt I should have given him the heads up and perhaps voted yes out of loyalty. In these times this feels like a bias issue. Would I give the same pass to someone coming up for Full that I didn’t know? Do women in academia get a “pass?” No they do not.
      I am also harboring a resentment for our supervisor who knows the criteria, the format, yet reviewed his dossier and moved it on. There was an assumption by the committee that he pushed for the promotion review and given the poor packet and her just okay letter of recommendation that she suspected a negative outcome. All I can think is “and there is a pandemic” bigger fish to fry.
      Thank you all again. I do love my job, I do love teaching, I am engaged in my work and am grateful to be able to do it in these times.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Meanwhile, he does not want you to figure out that his support came with a price tag. “I’ll help you launch so you can sing my praises later.” His demands of you are not ethical. You had to follow criteria. He’s asking you to violate ethics. He’s not the person you thought he was.

      2. Anonymous Alt-Ac*

        If you haven’t checked thefora.org , this seems like a situation tailor-made to put in front of the faculty who frequent that unofficial version of what used to be the old Chronicle of Higher Ed forum site. (I haven’t been to the site for a long while but it looks pretty active now I take a peek. As I recall they were friendly sorts.)

        Honestly, you’ve done WAY more than you had to in order to try and help Associate Professor Slacker out of the mess he got himself into by being more cavalier than some undergraduates. And yeah, I’m side-eyeing your supervisor too for pushing the dossier forward instead of saying “Look, I can pass this on but it’ll likely be shot down so I’d suggest you take time to make it stronger.”

        Also, the retired colleague really should know better than to suggest you potentially damage your own standing at your institution and/or professional reputation in Associate Professor Slacker’s and your shared research area by voting for a subpar package thrown together because Associate Professor Slacker assumed he could skate his way to full.

        Is there a faculty ombudsperson at your institution or someone else outside your department in an academic administrative role that you can talk with confidentially before Associate Professor Slacker submits another packet?

        Because I can just see this blowing up, sorry to say, if he does another slapdash job and throws a bigger hissy fit when the vote goes against him. Even though you are doing the exact right thing and he is being an uncollegial jerk IMO.

        1. academic glass half full*

          I appreciate your comments.”and there is a pandemic” I do not have the capacity to take this further outside of our department. I requested that if the dean forms a promotion and tenure committee to revise criteria that I want to be considered for it.
          on one hand- we are adults and should know that when it is recommended to attend the most recent promotion workshops, one should do so.
          on the other hand- I would like Directors to REQUIRE the workshops, revision with a mentor, checklist of contents, a rubric for the criteria and how ones’ packet supports that, a review by a full professor mentor before considering approval for filing.

      3. Owler*

        Your colleague fails to prepare his dossier properly and then convinces you to feel at fault? Gaslighting. And lazy.

    9. Academic glass half full (pronouns, she, her)*

      Clarification- this was not for tenure. The person has tenure and the rank of associate. The promotion would be to full.

    10. Full Committee Member*

      #3 is a jerk (with a fragile ego) who should know better, and you did the right thing in voting no. If the vote is confidential, there is no reason anyone should know how you voted. If there’s a leak that is not you, that is a problem and indicates dysfunction in the hierarchy. It’s also not your responsibility to work with him on his materials; that is for the department chair, or the college, to do. So it was going above & beyond for you even to offer to do that, and he is triply a jerk for acting like that was some sort of insult.

      Going forward, I suggest leaving him alone except to be unfailingly professional and polite when your paths cross, so it’s clear to any onlooker that he’s the a-hole when he refuses to respond to your “Good morning!” or whatever.

      Also, retired colleagues pretty much by definition remember how things *used to be,* not *how we do things now,* and it is entirely possible that new admin is deliberately trying to run a tighter ship. So don’t take advice from retirees, but look to trustworthy current senior people.

      1. Academic glass half full (pronouns, she, her)*

        Full committee member,
        Thank you for responding to this. It was easy to figure out that I voted no. There was a minority letter of support for promotion signed by three committee members. These were people who wrote, he is a good guy, noted expert in his field, we support his promotion. In the discussion only one of these spoke and did not support with evidence from the the packet. Everyone else was a no.

  64. Trixie*

    As an executive assistant, scheduling takes up far more time than I imagined.

    For others who are heavily involved with scheduling, how do you avoid booking meetings back to back and leaving time for just planning/reading/etc? We start out with blocks of time held for non-meeting space and probably 80% of the time, we end up scheduling meetings anyway. Part of it is my boss who aims for planning time but also wants to have numerous standing meetings or added to other meetings which she may or may not attend. It comes back to me to explain how the schedule becomes so packed. She is well aware that this pretty much starts and stops with her. I am thinking I should start tracking when we end up rescheduling or canceling a meeting, and why. This may help me identify patterns I can share with her.

    For those who support a very busy executive, any other suggestions to share? I’m not sure much can be done to change my boss’s habits but unsure how to better manage my approach. Or it may be just accepting this is a large part of the role and be at peace with it.

    1. FD*

      What does your principal think of it? I do scheduling for a couple of people in my current jobs and they don’t put any significant value on having unscheduled time, so I just book them based on where they’ll be physically (e.g. I try to schedule meetings at the same location in together rather than making them drive from Point A to Point B for a meeting, and then back to Point A again for a later meeting.

    2. Stelmselms*

      Can you shorten the meetings? We schedule the majority of our meetings for 30, 45 and 50 minutes. It’s amazing what can be accomplished in 30 minutes when many people think you need an hour. Meeting attendees then have time to check their emails or make a phone call between meetings which makes a huge difference for them at the end of the day. I’ve noticed it’s so much easier to schedule back-to-back meetings via Zoom over this past year since we don’t have to account for travel time to other floors and offices. It’s definitely been a challenge.

    3. Twisted Lion*

      Ugh. As an executive admin I worked for someone who was always into meetings and meetings about meetings. Her schedule was back to back and it was mostly her fault because she wanted to be added to things and then would get overworked. Blocking of lunch was usually pointless. I tried to get her an hour in friday morning for “Admin time” but she would always use it for some stupid thing she wanted to micromanage.

      So yes, start tracking the number of times you reschedule or cancel something. I put numbers in the calendar invite so I could see what iteration it was at. After 3 I would ask if she wanted someone else to attend and provide her the update. Really, its out of your hands if she is like my old boss who would just do what she wanted and complained she didnt have time for work. The worst was monday mornings because I had the week set and by 10am she would add 8 meetings and Id have to rearrange the whole calendar. I feel for you. Try to be at peace with it and remember it reflects on her not you.

    4. Trixie*

      The upside is we generally aim for shorter meetings when possible. Also, she is happy to take the information/discussion by email when possible. Ultimately, I think it’s about the other team members not seeing the projects or tasks through and she needs to be included at times to make sure progress is moving in the appropriate direction. If all was well, she would happily not be included in so many meetings. (As would the department if they did not have as many meetings to join.)

      Zoom is a mixed bag. Driving isn’t required for virtual meetings but it’s also too easy to schedule every minute of the da. Another negative of a packed schedule is when the unknown occurs and the schedule has to be scrapped to deal with new critical, time-sensitive issues.

      Other than creating more time in the workday for meetings, I think it’s making peace with the ongoing challenge. (Focus on benefits of job security, steady income, and all the other positives.)

      Thanks for the input and suggestions!

    5. LQ*

      I’m not a scheduler but a heavily scheduled person, I’ve generally got about 35+ hours of meetings a week on my schedule.
      One of the things I do is when standing meetings can be canceled I verbally/with typing cancel them but leave them on my schedule, and I spread out the ones that I know are likely to be canceled throughout the week and aim for slightly later in the day time slots for those. I usually get about 2-3 slots back a week from this and I always have the working tasks pre-planned for each day so I know what I COULD grab and work on if I get space.

      I always prefer a recurring meeting to an ad hoc one for this reason.

      My other thing that I schedule meetings that require the most fight or brain power when I have the most capacity, and knowing when that is is good. I take a little while to get into good headspace so a sort of dull vendor meeting I’ll throw on at 8, but 10 I want for really thinking or early in the week really fighting meetings. I imagine times and what you can be at 40% vs need to be at 90% on are vary from person to person.

    6. Assistant who hates scheduling*

      If possible (which I know it always isn’t), could you set aside a day or two that is strictly for planning/reading and make them no meeting days? Don’t let her make exceptions and you can choose only to make exceptions for senior senior meetings that can’t be moved. And don’t be afraid to push back on those boundaries with your boss either. You were hired to take the scheduling off her plate – let her know that you want to make her life easier and get permission to tell her no (nicely) if she starts to push back against filling those days.

      I schedule for a relatively busy faculty member and I know his quirks and desires (after 7 years) so I’m big on using the boundaries he’s set (no meetings before 11 am if possible, Fridays are writing days, and so on). No one else can see his calendar so they can’t push back and say, “But he has availability at 9 am on this day”. If it’s someone important (a dean or an executive director), the boundaries are more fluid, but when it comes to meeting with students, staff, and other faculty, I have zero problem with saying “He’s only available from 1 – 4 pm on Tuesday” even if he might actually be available beyond that slot.

    7. Former Curator*

      If you ever find a solution, let me know! I’m in the exact same boat. Right now, the only thing I can think of is for her to stop having so many responsibilities, which isn’t all that helpful…

  65. Alexis Rose*

    I have a weird hiring situation I have never run into before.

    I need to make a speedy hire for someone to fill a temporary seasonal position. I reached out to people in my network to encourage them to apply and ‘Jane’ responded saying that she would only consider even applying for the position if I assured her the hire would be considered a contract with her one-person company, rather than an employer-employee relationship.

    I’m baffled by this as most of the time being classified as a contractor is to the detriment of the worker. This would benefit my company since we would not need to pay payroll taxes on the sum, but of course it’s not up to me to just reclassify a position and my first priority is to comply with the law. (The position falls somewhat into the ‘gray area’ between employee and contractor, but we have always erred on the side of considering people in similar positions employees.)

    Has anyone encountered something like this?

    I’m glad Jane is being up front with her needs, but I’m also wondering if this is a red flag or the person is going to be more trouble than they’re worth.

    1. Reba*

      Hm, my workplace is unusual in a lot of ways, so take this with a big grain of salt… but it is fairly common for people who do contracting work with us to have an LLC (sole proprietor) and the contract is done with that “firm” that’s just the person.

      I could see if Jane is focusing on her business, it would be appealing to keep all work situations the same/funneled through that, rather than having multiple different kinds of work. Not fun to file taxes with W-2s and 1099s and other things in the same year, for one thing.

    2. Not A Manager*

      Just a thought, but with the recent unemployment checks people who work as independent contractors got one kind of treatment if they had NEVER been on payroll as a direct employee, but very different treatment if they had been a direct employee even once during the relevant timeframe. (This did not affect me directly so I don’t have the technical information.) She might have some separate tax/business/benefits reason that makes it literally prohibitive for her to be an employee.

      1. Alexis Rose*

        Interesting, I didn’t think about that. It’s good to know there might be a legit reason for this.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      I am a person who only does business through my LLC, and this is the kind of request that I would make, and have made. I pick up lots of part time projects for multiple clients, and the only way it works for me accounting and insurance-wise is for the contract to be with my company, not with me directly.

      1. Alexis Rose*

        Thanks! Glad to know there are a lot of good reasons for this. I’ve hired a lot of people and never encountered it before, but now I know.

    5. AcademiaNut*

      You would have to be careful to treat her as a contractor rather than an employee, so you don’t end up in legal trouble for misclassifying her (and the employee agreeing to the setup does not absolve the employer from following the law). I’d be inclined to run the setup by an employment lawyer before committing to it.

    6. rear mech*

      If she’s getting unemployment right now, she may want to be an independent contractor and get paid in a lump sum at the end of the season, or at least as infrequently as possible. In Texas at least, money you make by being in business for yourself only affects your unemployment check for the week that you actually got paid. Money made by regular employment affects your unemployment check for the week that it was earned, i.e. every week.

      She also could be applying for a mortgage or other loan on the strength of her business earnings. Mortgage lenders especially want to see income from a consistent source and disregard income from temporary jobs.

  66. Resume*

    AAM Commenters, I am encountering some conflicting resume writing advice and hoped to pick your brains, as it were. After some training and volunteering experience, I am transitioning from communications to marketing and finding myself overwhelmed by contradictory advice.

    1. How long should a resume be for someone with several years of experience? I’ve heard two full pages, 1.25-1.75 pages and just a single page. Is there a preferred length?

    2. How many bullets should be used for each position listed? I’ve heard everything from 2 to 6.

    3. Do you use the situation, task, action, result (STAR) format for your bullets? Again, I’ve been told yes and no for this.

    4. Do you begin with a summary section, a skills section, and a career highlights section before moving into the work history? Summaries seem to be the most divisive of the options I’ve encountered to date.

    Thanks for any help you can provide.

    1. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      1. As long as it takes (within two pages) to accurately and effectively make the case that you are the best person for the job.

      2. As many as it takes to present your most meaningful accomplishments related to the job you’re seeking.

      3. No. Summarize the accomplishment (using numbers if possible) and save the format for your answers to behavioral interview questions. Example: Increased teapot production by 15% while reducing customer complaints by 85%.

      4. I begin with a summary which distills my value to the hiring organization into a sentence or two. Then I deliver my experience. I use a skills section at the end to name all the software I know how to use (this helps with automated keyword-based systems).

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’ve been in my career field since 2004 and my resume is a single page. I have a single sentence profile, then my relevant work experience (4 jobs at two organizations), with one-line bullet points – my shortest role (6 months) only has one bullet point, my next shortest (2 years) has two bullet points. My earliest role, which had the most variety in responsibilities, has 6, and my current role has 10. I also distinguish between bullet points for responsibilities vs accomplishments –
      (R) Review and correction of pre-bill teapot errors for compliance with glaze quality, lid fitting, and other issues
      (A) Regularly assigned to handle special projects due to consistently high (200%+) productivity scores

      I do have a professional credentials section following work experience, because I have four professional credentials from three organizations, and an education section. I do not have a specific skills section or a highlights section.

  67. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I’ve been at my current job for a little over three months. Got great feedback yesterday and so far I’m pretty happy, which is such a relief!

    One of my obstacles is trying not to let first impressions guide me. I’ve been so burned by bosses who seem like THE GREATEST and turn out to be horrible. So far, here, I really like my boss, and his personality is so good for me– he’s really confident and laid back, which is very helpful because I can over-think and get really uptight. I’m also completely new to this type of work and I feel really supported by my boss and my whole team.

    One big plus: yesterday during a pretty casual conversation, Boss told me about a time he called out his boss for making a comment about a female colleague’s appearance. It wasn’t a pat-myself-on-the-back story, just an anecdote, but I came from a culture of, “but that’s not sexist, how dare you!” and this is super refreshing.

    Of course, I’m so paranoid, I’m all, “Check in with me in 6 months– I’ll probably hate everyone by then.”

    1. RagingADHD*

      As a general rule, I’ve found in life that people whose first impression is pretty good usually turn out to be far better in the long run than people who seem like THE GREATEST.

    2. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

      You sound like me when I first started my current job, lol. My initial warm and fuzzies have faded (not because I hate my job – I just discovered a passion for something else and want to pivot to a slightly different role), but I still really enjoy the people I work with and the company as a whole. It’s probably the best one I’ve worked for in my entire 10 year career. I hope you have a similar experience (minus the whole wanting to switch gears thing).

  68. Not A Manager*

    In one of today’s linked threads, someone asked for a discussion of “When people say (brief phrase) this is what it means with lots more words, and concrete teapot examples.” Alison mentioned that she would do a post on it. For some reason, I find the search engine for this site to be very difficult and I couldn’t find the follow-up thread. Was there one? Can anyone find the link?

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        Allison, I thought you might have done one for what hiring managers say, what that actually means, and what the hopeful candidate hears.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Oh yes! I did these:

          https://www.askamanager.org/2012/08/what-your-interviewer-says-vs-what-you-hear-vs-what-they-mean.html

          https://www.askamanager.org/2016/04/you-are-reading-way-too-much-into-things-employers-say-to-you.html

          But I think what the OP was asking about was the discussion that happened in this comment thread (the post is linked under “you may also like” up top):
          https://www.askamanager.org/2017/03/i-got-fired-for-attending-a-conference-that-i-wasnt-invited-to.html#comment-1392653

  69. McMurdo*

    I was looking for past class schedules for a project the student chapter of a professional society was undertaking. I emailed the person in charge of scheduling, who also happens to be one of my professors, and asked if he had backups or knew where I could find them. All he said was “No, sorry.” That was the whole email.

    This isn’t particularly surprising coming from him. But I was wondering if, in future workplaces, the “or know where I can find them / who to talk to / any leads whatsoever” is typically followed up on? Maybe I’m just naturally nosy and want to know the answer to everything, but when someone asks me a question I don’t know the answer to, I try to point them in the direction of my best guess. But maybe I’m an outlier?

    1. Asenath*

      In my experience, it depends on who you ask. If the professor has no idea where the schedules are and thinks they’re unimportant anyway, you’ll get a “no, sorry” and no follow-up. If you get someone who can easily answer your question, you might get “Have you asked Mary? She used to handle that work” or “I think John keeps copies of just about everything; try him”. But a lot of people either don’t think the answer is that important, don’t know where to start looking and/or think it’s your job to do any further searching. I’m speaking as someone who spent far too much time trying to track down documentation in a workplace with little or no history of keeping careful and well-organized records. And now that I no longer work there, I bet my carefully organized files have been ignored while current workers are wondering where on earth old records that they suddenly now need are.

    2. Malarkey01*

      For me, it depends… If the topic is something reasonable for them to send to me, it’s not someone who constantly bombards me with stuff outside my lane, and more so if it’s someone I have a usual relationship with I will suggest another person to ask or provide a tip that might help (all assuming it’s something I actually know to suggest). However, sometimes it can be a little like giving an inch and suddenly your everyone’s help desk because you’ll do the legwork for them of figuring out the right contact or it can be sometimes that the ask is so out of bounds (and sometimes it’s hard to know that) that it’s just a short No.

    3. Academic glass half full (pronouns, she, her)*

      I could be guilty of an abrupt reply to this kind of query. (mostly in my immediate mental reaction not in a written reply)As a faculty advisor the responsibility for keeping track of things is not mine but those of the students. Once I finished the service obligation, I do not look back nor keep files.
      A better worded email would begin-
      Dear Prof. Glass,
      I am the the new representative of student chapter Y and unfortunately have not been able to put my hands on the scheduling. I have reached out to former rep. Anika who graduated last year and followed up with Thomas Kindred. Both were dead ends. Perhaps you can provide me with this information or point me in a possible direction,
      Thank you- my cell to text or call is…

  70. Frustrated freelancer*

    I posted a long time ago about my former employer, for which I’d done $1,000 worth of freelance work in 2018 and not yet received the money. I am thrilled to report that they kept their word and on Monday I received payment in full!

  71. Anxious Annie*

    My last interviews were in the fall and, ugh, they were a bit disastrious in terms of nerves. I just get anxious, ugh, and come off like an idiot. Regardless of how much I practice beforehand. I’ve been doing a bit of casual interview practice with a former boss of mine since the New Year, and I think my problem is that I over-prepare for interviews.

    I have an interview coming up on Tuesday afternoon and I am already turning into an anxious worrywart. Especially considering how my last interviews yet. I’m going to practice for it with my former boss on Monday, which is nice.

    My question is, how… do I prepare for an interview WITHOUT over-preparing? Any tips? The last interview I had consumed my weekend with nerves, I always felt like I wasn’t “preparing” enough when I did anything for fun!! I want to be able to enjoy my weekend, prepare for the interview by mostly learning about the organization, but beyond that not worrying too much. This might be easier said than done. Does anyone have any advice?

    1. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      Do all the prep you want, but for 24 hours before the interview, do NO prep. Focus on putting yourself into a relaxed, confident mood by doing whatever you like best. And get plenty of sleep!

    2. Sherm*

      I wouldn’t worry so much about over-preparing, unless, as Thin Mints says, it is interfering with your mood and sleep. It’s more of a concern not to sound *over-rehearsed*, like you’re reading off a teleprompter instead of having an organic conversation. If this will be a remote interview, I would *not* write down whole sentences to look at, but it may be fine to write a few bullet points. Remember that an interview is a two-way street: You are interviewing them as much as they are interviewing you! Focus on them and truly pay attention to what they are saying. That should lead to more thoughtful answers, and it may help that your attention is not devoted to what is going on inside.

    3. RagingADHD*

      My favorite way to prep is to make a list of things I would want to know before taking the job (or before starting my first day on the job), and then see how many of those answers I can find out through research before the interview. The ones I can’t answer, or where the answer is confusing/conflicting, are questions I would ask about during the interview.

      That way I feel like I’m more in control of the situation and less on the spot or trying to present myself. And since I have a list, there’s a definite end point to the research/prep. When it’s done, it’s done.

  72. a very anxious programmer*

    I’m considering quitting my job without a new one lined up and wondering, if I did so, how I would answer the question “why did you decide to leave your last job?”

    Note: I am specifically *not* looking for advice on whether or not to quit, please don’t weigh in on that, it’s gonna depend on various things that I don’t want to get into here. I want advice on what to say in interviews. Also, I am not going into detail on various things on purpose and I’m gonna just ask you to believe the way I’m summarizing them.

    I’ll try and summarize what is happening at my my current job:
    * My coworker who I work closely with has been rude and condescending to me for months, and has also held up my work being completed with really nitpicky feedback. I’ve been trying to get her to stop by talking to her and it hasn’t worked.
    * I tried to ask our boss for help, he said he would help at first and then didn’t follow through, and when I tried to talk to him about what he wanted me to do next he berated and insulted me and said I was overly emotional and wasn’t cut out to be a programmer.
    * Then I talked to his grandboss, who has been trying to help and get me on projects that won’t have me interacting with the rude coworker, but it is difficult to fully separate and they want me to at least finish up a section of the project we were working on together.
    * I’ve been having physical symptoms of anxiety like stomach pains and muscle aches for at least a month over this situation; this week as I was trying to work out how to work on the joint project with minimal contact with the rude coworker, it made me have a panic attack and I couldn’t concentrate at all for the rest of the day. I called out sick yesterday afternoon and did so again for today.

    So I am thinking of quitting for my mental health, because the thought of continuing to work here even with grandboss’ support is taking a really noticeable toll on me. I’ve had anxiety my whole life but it was being managed pretty well, even with the pandemic and everything, with meds and therapy and exercise. This incident at work has thrown me completely off and I am really worried about doing myself lasting damage to my health, as well as possibly being so dysfunctional at work that I get fired, or being so overwhelmed that I’m unable to successfully interview at new jobs.

    I’m a programmer, I’ve worked in IT for about 6 years and at my current (highly regarded within tech) company for about 3. I am in the final stages of interviewing with 2 companies so if I’m lucky I’ll get an offer and this will all be moot. But if neither of these jobs makes me an offer I am wondering what I’d say as I continue looking for jobs.

    Some thoughts:
    * I am taking a statistics class and learning R because I eventually want to work in public health or some form of data analysis for the sciences, so if I interview for a job in that field I could say I wanted to focus on learning those skills, but realistically I may have to keep applying for jobs similar to the one I had
    * I’ve been able to lean on the inefficiency of Rude Coworker’s nitpicking and the way it slowed down progress when answering “why are you leaving” in the past, but I don’t know if that’ll fly so well in the context of “why did you leave without something else lined up”
    * Basically I just don’t know how bad it looks to have a voluntary resume gap or how hard it is to explain one, I definitely won’t be explicit about the mental health issues even though they would be the primary reason I’d leave

    Any advice? It’d be especially helpful to hear what other people have said when they had to explain in interviews why they quit without something else lined up, when they did so at least partly for personal reasons, even if those reasons were very different from the ones I’ve talked about.

    1. a very anxious programmer*

      correction – “Then I talked to his grandboss” should read “his boss”

    2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I have two positions that I’ve had to dance around my departure from. I normally use a variation on “what looked like a good fit on paper didn’t play out as one.”

      1. a very anxious programmer*

        Do they ask for more detail after that or does it normally just get left at that?

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          It usually gets left at that.

          Occasionally, I’ll get follow-up and I’ll have to disclose “competing priorities of my boss and grandboss meant their satisfaction was a zero-sum game” and “changes in policy made internal code sharing a personal liability after I’d written several libraries for coworkers and contributed source code to almost every project.”

          I’ve only ever had another follow-up after that, which I declined to get into citing proprietary information involved… and, frankly, that was a red flag and I ended up withdrawing from consideration later that week.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Honestly, I know the conventional wisdom is that you don’t trash former workplaces, but I think it’s okay to say you left that workplace because it wasn’t a healthy environment, as long as you speak well of your other former places of employment.

      When people cringe at hearing you trash other workplaces, their main concerns are:
      1. Is this how they’re going to talk about our company when they leave?
      2. Is the problem them and not the workplace, because they think about all of their former workplaces this way?
      3. Is this someone who will always blame others and not own up to their own issues.

      If you can allay those fears (1+2) by talking positively about other places you’ve worked and (3) by owning up to mistakes you’ve made in the past (doesn’t even have to be at your current workplace), you should be good to be forthcoming here (maybe not in quite as much detail as you’ve laid out here).

      1. a very anxious programmer*

        This is good advice, thanks.

        It actually was a good job for most of the time I was there.

        * I had a previous boss who was really great and supportive but they reorganized the teams to put me on current boss’ team.
        * I used to get along better with my coworker but she’s doubled down on the nitpicking in recent months for some reason
        * I really think the pandemic and working from home exacerbated the communication issues.

        So I will think on how to convey “I had a bad time but there were specific factors that led to that.” Do you have advice on how to say “my manager was unsupportive” that don’t make people think I’m overly needy or something?

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I don’t think you need to say your manager was unsupportive, but you can talk about what management styles work best for you, and maybe give some examples of what previous managers have done that helped you succeed.

        2. LadyByTheLake*

          Oooh, I think that the fact that you were there for a while and then there was a reorganization really, really helps. You can say, “I loved XYZ company but then there was a reorganization that resulted in it being difficult to get my work done.”
          I would not say that the manager was unsupportive because that makes it sound like you need constant handholding, which is not the scenario you outlined.

        3. My Brain Is Exploding*

          How about starting with…”There was a reorganization” and following that by saying the company did not transition well to WFH…then ending up with “and the job was not a good fit any more?”

    4. Anon Tech Worker*

      Hi,
      Honestly, I’d try to lean away from anything relating to interpersonal conflicts. I think your first option is great & would pair well with something along the lines of it being a stressful year, and you were fortunate enough to be able to take some personal time to take some classes, think about the kind of work you really like, etc… leading into a bit on why this role in particular interests you.

  73. anon for this question*

    I am really struggling with what to do next in my career. I am at the exec level for a mid-size nonprofit; for the sake of discussion let’s say I am essentially like head of HR/people stuff (that not exact but close enough). I have been at my org for a while and feel like its time to move on. I am not unhappy per se but I also am a little burned out, feel a little in a rut and also just tired of ultimately being the person all the hardest issues get escalated to. But I don’t really have a strong desire to just go be the head of people stuff or an exec at a bigger or different org. I could use a break of feeling the weight of not only being responsible for my own management responsibilities but also the org work culture, leadership team, stakeholders, etc. But I am not sure what i want to do instead and nothing i can think of is particularly appealing. I would maybe be open to management consulting or training but I do not want to start my own business or freelance and not sure how to assess if that would even be a good fit. Anyone been in a similar situation? Any suggestions?

    1. Blossom Fowler*

      I don’t have an answer but I am in a very similar situation and am interested in reading answers to your question!

    2. Camelid coordinator*

      This is a tough one. I can’t answer the question of what you should do next, but you might want to spend time thinking about what you find gratifying about your current work. Then think about how you could do more of that. Can you shape your job so it isn’t such a drag? Is there something you’d like to study on the side? Can you make an your exit plan ( in X years I will retire, or go to part time, or do the work at the program level) to suss out some options?

    3. Unkempt Flatware*

      Can you apply to the larger agencies that fund your work or adjacent work? I just left a position where I awarded funding to sub-recipients who provided a human service in my state as the pass-through for federal funds. It was so rewarding yet I was home for dinner every night and never worked OT or past 5 pm.

  74. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

    You MIGHT refer to “a health issue [true] which has since been resolved [by leaving!].” But I would stay away from that if possible.

    While you’re still stuck at AnxietyCo, have you take this issue to HR? Might be worth a try.

  75. StockOptions*

    Stock options as compensation.

    I’ve made it past some initial phone screens where I’ve been told the compensation includes these which I’ve never had before. I currently have a pretty good salary where I am and don’t want to give that up despite being told “I’d be offered a competitive package”. I’m generally risk averse though I’ve had good luck with my own retirement plan.

    My network largely says “don’t take these from a startup” but I’m curious what other advice commenters have. E.g. are companies ever open to negotiating around these? What are questions to ask at the next interview steps?

    General web searches have been helpful but I’m open to suggestions on any particular financial advice sites too.

    1. FD*

      They can be nice if it’s a big company that normally puts up growth. But it’s basically going to be a bonus, so I would personally only consider the base salary + other benefits when assessing an offer.

    2. Grim*

      You can’t pay your bills with stock options and stock options are only worthwhile if the company is purchased or goes public, which about 95% of startups never do.

      I’d negotiate as if the stock options are worthless (because, at this point) they are and go for a higher starting salary than you currently make. Good luck.

      This advice is coming from someone who’s worked at 5 startups and none of them did anything.

      1. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

        You can’t pay your bills with stock options and stock options are only worthwhile if the company is purchased or goes public, which about 95% of startups never do.

        Or they go public very late so that it may not even matter. My company promised the people who started with it almost 36 years ago stock options – they only just went public late last year. If you died or moved on before then, well, I guess you were out of luck.

        1. True North*

          … or you get laid off when cyclical changes come and go and the options are underwater when you leave the organization.
          …Or the company goes under eventually and all of the stock options are worthless.

          Ask me how I know. :)

    3. pancakes*

      There are different kinds of options, ISOs and NSOs, and they are taxed differently. I don’t have any personal experience with these, but having lived through the 1990s dot com boom I agree with the people saying to treat them as basically worthless.

    4. Super Duper Anon*

      Stock options are a nice bonus, but I would leave them out of your compensation package value entirely when thinking about salary and benefits. I got some restricted stock as a part of a bonus last year. I get a certain amount of shares that vest each year for a number of years. The stock market has been all over the place this past year with everything going on, so by the time they vested and I sold my stocks, they were worth less than what I could have gotten had they vested right away a year ago. And who knows what next years batch will be worth.

      I was happy with the money I got out of them, since I paid nothing for the stock in the first place, but don’t count on the “value” of what they might be worth to fill in a gap in salary.

    5. Raja*

      I agree with everyone to consider them basically useless for the purposes of a salary negotiation – get what you need from your salary alone. But many startups give out options more freely than cash because they are cash constrained. If you are offered more options but they won’t budge on salary, take the options! You don’t have to exercise them if you don’t want to so there’s no downside to having more. And who knows, it could really turn into a windfall for you later on! My company is going public this year and I will probably make about $800k from my options. I’ve always considered them a bonus, and my what a bonus it is turning out to be!!! PP are right that this is uncommon, I just include it to say don’t turn your nose up on options as long as you are still making a good salary.

    6. Decidedly Me*

      I’m not great at this terminology, so I may get a few terms incorrect here.

      My partner received stock at Job A and options at Job B. Job A was at a very well known company and the stock has done well. I think it’s currently worth nearly as much or more than his total salary during the years he worked there and it wasn’t all that long ago (I think 4-5 years now?) and some has already been sold.

      Job B is a private company that’s at the top of its industry, but known of far less. He gets options there, but it’s not on the intent of going public one day. The company offers private stock internally, so those options can be exercised essentially whenever. They options are also worth quite a lot now, though it’s not as comparable to salary as it was at Job A, since salary at Job B is kind of ridiculously high.

      I don’t know if he negotiated these (I doubt it), but I don’t see why you couldn’t.

      Anyways, in both cases, it wasn’t offered or thought of as part of salary, but as part of the total compensation package. I would think of it as a bonus, not a guaranteed amount or part of your take home pay. Your salary should still be fair, reasonable, and what you need.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      My husband had stock options for a well-known and older (100 yr plus) company. They made it up to be such a big deal, oh my.

      IRL, the options had expiration dates. Buy the stock before x date. Since he had a bunch there were several expiration dates. By the time I got to it a few had expired a couple months earlier. Of the remaining it was to buy at 40. I checked at the stock was at 20. Worthless. Shredded in the paper shredder.

      Our financial person advised us at that time to watch how much % of our investments went into this company by stock option purchases. We did not want all our eggs in one basket, nor did we want even a larger percentage of our eggs in His Company’s Basket.

      Of the dozen or so options we had, we used ZERO. I kinda got misty eyed over that. He worked so hard and their thanks was to give him a dozen worthless pieces of paper. What a smack down.

    8. Girasol*

      When I left after 10 years, half my stock option awards were underwater (higher strike price than the current stock price) and several recently issued ones hadn’t been vested. But I never thought of them as compensation. I lived off my paycheck and thought of them much like if the boss had given me lottery tickets as a bonus reward: a fun, maybe valuable, gamble. I still had a few winners among my options and I got to buy something special. But if I’d counted on them to be my kid’s college fund or my retirement nest egg it wouldn’t have come out well. In a startup, you might get lucky and get millions or get nothing. If your wages don’t support you, you could fall behind on your bills and end up in trouble. It’s still a gamble, but if you accept an inadequate salary with beaucoup stock options to make up the difference, you’re playing for much higher stakes, win or lose.

  76. Office Polonium*

    I’m trying to decide whether I’m leaving my project team and client in the lurch, thus burning a bridge. I’ve been an independent project consultant most of my career, mostly as Project or Program Manager, but also as a senior specialized team lead. On this project, a Team Lead. This client is well-intentioned, my team and PM are great. However I signed on last year for a 9 month term; and due to organizational and scope changes not in our control, the project was recast and we’ve been alternately doing and planning since. So 9 months later with 1-week left in my contract, we’re facing another about 6-9 months of intense work. I’m just not up for it. So I told the client that I will not extend for the project, but will extend for up to 2 months to transition to a new lead as an option. And will not bill for knowledge transfer to new lead, only for work output. I’m even helping to find a new lead. Yet I’ve always prided myself on finishing projects (plus better for resume accomplishments), so this still feels icky to me. I’m used to adjusting time off to between projects. I have no real reason for not working – can’t travel anywhere – but I’m pretty miserable working via zoom all the time in a very user/client-facing role that I normally do a lot of face-to-face for. I can afford time off; I need it. I will also have to make do with not having referencable client as well as introducing more churn in the project. Just wondering how bad I suck for not hanging in there so I can get a summer off.

    1. JustaTech*

      Do you have real and genuine confidence that the project would *actually* be one in 6 months? In 9 months? Or will you get to month 5 and they’ll say “Oh, more scope changes, we’ll need you for another 6 months”?

      This kind of work sounds more like a sprint than a marathon, but the client seems to be asking you to sprint for a whole 26.2 miles, and that’s not what you signed up for.

      So you might be burning a bridge with this client, but you don’t suck.

      1. Omniscient but flawed*

        Likely the “another 6 months” scenario, but it could be me being pessimistic. They run very lean, and cannot spare their own business resources to participate in any meaningful way on changes that will affect their way of working. I’ve seen this before, and it doesn’t end well, and indeed, they complained about this very thing in a company wide survey. On some level, if they were more committed, I feel I could be. 10 years ago, I’d have been raring to help pick up the slack even so. With experience, not so much.

        Thanks for your insights.

        1. Office Palonium*

          Sorry, that was me, different handle – I responded from a different device and didn’t remember that my devices save whatever handle I was using at the time.

    2. Filosofickle*

      You don’t suck. This looks like DOUBLE the timeline, and you don’t even know that’s going to do it. You fulfilled your obligation and your transition offer is generous. It would be easier if you had a good excuse, like a conflicting obligation, but you don’t and that’s ok. It will be uncomfortable and that’s ok too.

  77. Ella*

    I work in the US for a company headquartered outside of the US, and it is common in our headquarters company to annually renegotiate salaries. It seems like you don’t just get a raise (or not), it’s a whole discussion.

    I’m also a first-time team manager with three entry level employees. I have two employees that are eligible for a raise this year (one just started). These employees were previously hired and managed by two other employees, and my hiring brought them together as a team.

    There’s a big salary discrepancy between Jane, my top performer, and Beth, a strong B-level performer. Beth makes substantially less than Jane but has been at the company longer. I do not believe the performance differential between Jane and Beth warrant such a discrepancy. I also have Joseph, a new employee, whose salary I did not negotiate at hire and makes roughly the same as Beth currently.

    I want to give Jane a small raise (she’s been at the company less than a year, so I’ve vetted roughly 2.5% through upper management) and bring Beth to the same level. However, I’m authorized to increase both salaries another 1k apiece should either request it. I do not believe Beth will be requesting that at all – this is about a 9% raise for her, and I think she’ll be quite happy with that. I am worried that Jane will request another 1k. I have no qualms about giving that to her based on merit, but I’m worried now about the gap between Jane and Joseph, which would exceed 5k. And while the pay differential is rather small with Beth’s new salary and Jane’s potential larger one, I’d really like them to be paid the same in practice. They each have separate and valuable skills they bring to the team, even though Jane is objectively the better all-around member.

    Obviously I’ve pegged my target for new hires slightly higher in the future to cut down on these kinds of discrepancies, but how would you manage this? I’ve been able to handle everything that has come up in terms of team management (I’ve been unofficially supervising/managing/mentoring for years, this is just the first official team for me) but the culture of salary discussions is throwing me for a loop. I almost hate it – I’d rather just give them the raise and call it a day.

  78. Message in a Bottle*

    Any ideas about getting out of the entry-level at nonprofits? Especially out of operations/admin. Sometimes in the operations/administrative world, you don’t get a lot of experience in other areas which makes it hard to move up. Again, just curious.

    1. Let me be dark and twisty*

      Have you thought about volunteering at other organizations in the areas where you want to go? I’m on an alumni board for my university and one of my fellow board members, who works for a history non-profit, was able to leverage her experience on our board for a better position at her non-profit.

      1. Message in a Bottle*

        I have volunteered a lot. But the efforts rarely come to a fruition that I feel I can honestly put I’ve mastered skills on a resume. And the volunteer section is shorter and less detailed. I could expand it but I don’t think it would go on the first page.

        Interesting where I feel that I could write an entire volunteer resume that would be appealing to some of the orgs I’m applying to, it just isn’t professional experience. Maybe I should grow even further into my volunteer leadership roles, but takes a lot of time to hold those responsibilities while holding another 45-hour a week job.

        So no boards for me! Well, not yet. But I’ve organized events, facilitated groups, been on DEI committees (in a limited way), and been generally invited and gently mentored into leadership in ways I never have been in my professional experiences.

        And no, there aren’t any paid full-time jobs really available in those volunteer organizations. You’ve got me thinking, though, how to really honor the skills I’ve gained outside of my job without being misleading about the experience I have.

    2. awesome3*

      I have seen people move from admin roles to programming roles in nonprofits. In smaller ones at least it’s pretty common for “all hands on deck” type stuff, and the benefit of that is that you’d be exposed to a lot of the programming pieces. It’s also easier for you to say, run a food pantry that you’ve assisted with, than someone from the outside who has a degree in food pantries (nutrition?) but doesn’t know how this particular process works. I think admin do end up learning a lot of skills used by people in programming positions by nature of being pulled in one direction or another filling in the gaps.

      I will say though, for admin moving up it’s really really important to know what everyone else is paid. I’ve seen people move into “promotions” and not get paid enough, or still being labeled admin but basically doing the same role as me, which is why I used to shout my salary from the rooftops when I was in the nonprofit world

      1. Alexis Rosay*

        Totally agree. I work at a small nonprofit and it’s common for folks to have both program responsibilities and admin responsibilities, so even if you start somewhere in an admin role it should be easier to move into a programs role by volunteering to help with bigger projects.

    3. Ella*

      I think it’s all about where your individual strengths lie, but you can parlay admin work into a few different arenas:
      **If you’re the go-to person for organization, project/program management could be a good pursuit. For nonprofits, look for program coordination roles in programmatic work
      **If it’s the numbers that thrill you, look for work in the data sphere. I’ve successfully transitioned an entry-level fundraising role into a fantastic data career over the course of a decade of progressively more responsible work.
      **If you can throw an office party without stressing, look for event planning/coordination roles (post! pandemic of course)
      Pretty much the sky is the limit, so hone in on tasks you enjoy (and tasks you want to avoid if possible) and find the parallels from there.

    4. OyHiOh*

      My current job is non profit admin. A few of the projects I’ve worked on have revealed that I really like and am good at data analysis so I’m working on increasing my skills in that area, and letting my boss know which kinds of projects I’d like to assist on to get hands on experience as well.

      1. Message in a Bottle*

        Thanks to everyone who replied to me! Much food for thought for where I want to go next. It’s really got me thinking!

  79. avocadotacos*

    How do you deal with morning sickness at work?

    (For context this is in person during covid. The covid screener we do every morning does ask about vomitting/nausea, but only if it’s not from a pre-existing condition)

    1. Dark Macadamia*

      If you’re just having a bit of nausea sucking on an ice cube, cough drop, or hard candy can help (they make some specifically for morning sickness – preggo pops, etc). If it’s really extreme take B6 vitamins or ask a doctor to prescribe Diclegis and Zofran – I had awful all-day nausea throughout both my pregnancies and “drink some ginger ale” made me absolutely want to scream lol, meds were the only thing that actually worked.

    2. Double A*

      There’s a step in between vitamins/herbal stuff and a prescription, though you may want to talk to your doctor about it, which is Unisom and B6. I’ve had pretty bad nausea with both pregnancies and taking unisom and b6 at night has helped with nausea the next day. It’s half a sleep TAB (not the gel kind) and 25 mg of b6. Take it at night since it’s a sleep aid! Bonus, helps you sleep.

  80. Staying Home*

    I work part-time and as such don’t get any vacation time. I’ve always been remote, even pre-COVID. Part of the attraction of the job was that despite the lack of vacation time, I was told I could work from anywhere with my manager’s approval. So for several years, I would go on a couple short trips each year, and spend some time in the summer with my family in another state. I faithfully clocked in from my laptop every day and completed all my work. When COVID hit, my company said that temporarily no one was allowed to work out of state while they sorted out all the tax ramifications that came to light with COVID and out of state work. Now as travel is opening up again, they have said that working out of state will permenantly be prohibited. Am I right to think this is a significant change to my compensation package? Now, I can’t visit my parents (who live on the other side of the country) without taking unpaid leave and losing money. Is it reasonable to ask for vacation time or a raise as compensation?

    1. WellRed*

      I think before you make assumptions, you should ask your boss to clarify what this means and if it has the same impact on you. They may have simply not thought it through. If the answer is yes, you can no longer work out of state, then I would absolutely see what they can offer you instead.

      1. Staying Home*

        Thanks! They’ve made it pretty clear that no one is allowed to work out of state anymore, but I will clarify. It’s good to know that it’s reasonable to ask for other compensation.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Definitely say something! It sounds like this was maybe a special exception for you before, perhaps it can be a special exception again. It could be that the rule was put in place for full-time employees, or that in general it was hard to have multiple full-time people working from different states, but a part-time employee could maybe be granted permission to infrequently work from a different state. Either way, definitely say something, a big perk that was part of the reason you took the job is being taken away.

    3. Llellayena*

      Are you sure of what they mean by “no one allowed to work from out of state”? It sounds like you have a home base in State A but vacation (and work) from State B on occasion. State A is still your working state for tax purposes, you’re not in State B for more than half the year (I think). I can entirely understand them not wanting to employees working *permanently* from out of state (i.e. a cross country home base that has tax implications for the business), but heading off for vacation and checking in while you’re away? Eliminating that seems even more problematic. I’d ask about your specific situation before jumping to vacation/compensation issues.

      1. Staying Home*

        We are not allowed to work even for a single day outside of the state where we are a permenant resident. The reason being stated is that if we do, then the company could be liable for all sorts of taxes, witholding requirements, etc.

        1. WellRed*

          But that was always true. Although I think they are exaggerating a bit. It depends on states involved and lengths of stay. But that isn’t new.

        2. fhqwhgads*

          Unfortunately, that was true before too, depending on which state the vacation is in. If they didn’t realize that before, basically, they were doing it wrong re: your previous arrangement.

  81. FD*

    I’m struggling to figure out what I want to do next.

    For the last few years, I’ve been working at basically a startup (a startup wing of a small established company–think that the established company does teapot painting but we do teapot design). I report directly to the owner and have basically built the business from the ground up but do not have any ownership share. We now have a couple of employees who report to me.

    Part of the challenge with this business is that the owner absolutely positively cannot do my part of the business at all. He’s a brilliant sales person–something I have no skill in–so he brings in customers but he can’t really do any of the day-to-day work. I’m massively underpaid for my responsibilities. Originally, I was promised future ownership but that didn’t pan out (long story but I’m still kind of annoyed about it).

    I’m at the point where I’ve basically said, “Look, you can lose me altogether or I’m going to half time and doing [things I’m actually meant to be doing and that I’m very skilled at] and you need to find someone else to do the operations and petty BS that consumes most of my job.” He agrees, not least because again, he can’t actually do my job himself.

    I’m…frustrated because I feel like I care about this business more than anyone else here, including the owner. I also feel like even when I ask the owner to do a couple of very specific things that he has the ability to do…he just doesn’t.

    On the flipside, I feel a sense of responsibility to my team, to the owner (who I do genuinely like as a person), and to our clients.

    I’m at the point where I have two paths ahead of me. Part of why I wanted to go halftime for a while is to just deal with the burnout. But there’s also an opportunity if I do that to follow up on a track where I can do some potentially extremely lucrative project work. (Maybe. Not completely sure that will materialize.)

    Part of me wants to do that, and part of me is just fed up of the whole thing and ready to go find a full time job with benefits that I can leave behind at the end of the day without constantly thinking about a job that no one else seems to care about nearly as much as I do.

    1. Blossom Fowler*

      That does sound frustrating! Could you switch to part-time now and pursue the project work, and also apply for full-time jobs and see how it works out?

      1. FD*

        I think that’s what I might do. I’m going to down to part time no matter what on May 28 and I think I might just do that for a few months and deal with the burnout before the next steps. Hard to make good choices when you’re exhausted.

    2. PollyQ*

      I feel a sense of responsibility to my team, to the owner (who I do genuinely like as a person), and to our clients.

      It’s all well and good to feel that while you’re working for a company, but you shouldn’t let it affect decisions about your career. At the end of the day, it’s a job, not a marriage, parenthood, or even your pet. If the job isn’t serving your needs, you have every right to leave and find something that suits you better.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Emotions seldom make good decisions on their own.

        Pretend a friend is tell you a remarkably similar story:
        Owner failed to give her part ownership.
        Owner won’t or is slow in hiring support staff for your friend.
        Your friend is massively underpaid.
        Owner sandbags and pretends not to be able to do some tasks in order to avoid helping your friend.
        Your friend is burned out because of the demands at work.
        It sounds like your friend does not have any benefits.

        What do you see? yeah. That’s what I see too. Time to move on.

        1. FD*

          Yeah, you’re probably right. I think I still will stick with my plan of going to halftime on May 28 and give it a few months to get my head screwed on straight before job hunting.

          Maybe with the enforced boundaries they’ll get their head on straight and pick up the slack. Maybe they won’t. Either way, I’ll be in a better position to move ahead.

  82. Cookies for Breakfast*

    I posted last week about a company that wanted to make a decision within a couple of days from my interview. Surprise surprise, I still haven’t heard from them. I’m beginning to think they’ll ghost me, since they just reposted the job with a new deadline. And that’s ok, I’ve pretty much moved on from that role.

    But I have a different job searching doubt this week, and it still involves them.

    The organisation I interviewed with (Company A) is a name you’d definitely have heard. It’s also owned by a larger group (not a household name, operates across a few different industries). And it has many divisions, all of which have their own brands, also quite recognisable. They’re a big player in an industry I want to move to, which is fairly hard to get into as an outsider, so I’d still like to work for them in some capacity.

    One of Company A’s divisions (Company B) posted a job I’m interested in and have transferable skills for, though I don’t meet 100% of the requirements. The deadline to apply is Monday.

    The job is posted on Company B’s website, on an industry-specific job board, and also by the larger group that owns both brands. It isn’t on Company A’s website as far as I can see. But since Company B is part of Company A, I don’t know how many departments and systems they share. I have no way to tell whether my application would go through the same HR person that has arranged my interviews at Company A, and should also be sending me their response. I do know, from LinkedIn posts, that the hiring manager isn’t the person I already interviewed with (I don’t know whether they work together in any way, though I assume they don’t).

    I was hoping that Company A’s inevitable rejection would come this week, so I could reply to the HR person, thank them for the feedback, and ask if it was fine to apply for Company B’s job. But that hasn’t happened. So do I apply, and risk hearing from the same HR team I’m already waiting on? Do I hold off, assuming that if Company A rejected me, it’s too soon to apply at any of their brands?

    1. ferrina*

      I’d apply to Company B. It’s not even clear that Company B and Company A share an HR division. It sounds like it’s big enough that they wouldn’t necessarily know you applied to both. Besides, it’s very normal that you’d continue your job search when you hadn’t heard back from them yet. It’s not too soon to apply to brands- if there are other openings _that you are well qualified for_ you can keep applying. (Caveat: if HR told you that you really should only apply to X jobs, then solely focus on X jobs for a while.)
      Besides, they liked you enough to interview you. That’s not going to be a negative mark to anyone.

  83. burnt out*

    I’m struggling, y’all. After 10 years at my current organization (non-profit focused on education in developing countries), I’ve started to apply for new jobs. So, it’s my first time looking for new work in 10 years. Since February I’ve made attempts to apply all of the super helpful advice here at AAM with a more informal and tailored cover letter and a CV that focuses on accomplishments.

    As soon as I started applying, I realized that I should have started a year ago. I feel desperate to move on as quickly as possible, but I feel so burnt out that completing a single application feels like an overwhelming task that occasionally brings me to tears. I have submitted 22 applications since February and have done one interview (no offer). Since I haven’t been getting results, I’ve made more efforts to apply the AAM advice more comprehensively and to really shorten my CV in particular, which was probably too long and bulky.

    Is this normal? Am I struggling with this more than most people? I know that I just need to keep my head down and keep going, but I feel so demoralized.

    1. ferrina*

      It’s normal! Some people apply easily, some people struggle. Both are totally normal. It’s especially exhausting when you are feeling burnt out and desperate to move on. And pandemic time is really rough- the market is hard right now!

      I’ve found a few things helped me:
      – Set a limit on how much time I spend job hunting. When I apply to two places in one week, that is a win.
      – Have a go-to template. I have a template resume that is 3 1/2 pages and includes accomplishments on a variety of skills. Then when I go to apply, I cut out all the irrelevant or less important bullets until my resume hits 2 pages. I have something similar for my cover letter- strong paragraphs with different anecdotes, which I then cut/edit/rearrange as needed. It’s way easier than always writing things from scratch.
      – If you have the PTO, take a day off of work to create these templates. It’s exhausting! That’s okay! It’s the mental equivalent of a marathon, and it’s okay to just get it done and collapse afterwards.
      – Have a stock resume and cover letter. There are some job postings that just don’t deserve the effort of a fully custom resume/letter. And there are some days/weeks where you just don’t have the energy to fully customize everything. That’s okay!
      – When you have a letter you are particularly proud of, save it in a prominent place. It will help you build better letters in the future.
      – Use your friends and network. Sometimes there are people who are happy to do the work for you. I know one person who loves combing through job postings and sends me what she finds- yes please! Other people may be willing to provide feedback
      – If it’s an option, use recruiters. If they don’t have anything now, make a note to check back in a couple months. And use multiple people (but only good people- if they start getting pushy, adding to the stress of becoming an AAM story, drop them and feel no guilt).
      – Set time aside purely for relaxation. It’s a priority! Making time for you to recharge will help in so many ways. A few hours a week to DO NOTHING can be essential in keeping you from burn out. You can take longer term breaks, too. A week or two off from applying can be good if it gets you reinvigorated. Admit when you hit a wall and take time to recover.

      And know that it’s going to take longer than usual. It’s not you- the market is really, really tight right now. In normal times, it took me 2 weeks to land an interview; now, it’s taken me 4 months. My accomplishments have only gotten stronger, but there’s just more competition and organizations may still be struggling with budget.
      With that in mind, what keeps you going? Can you set a milestone and get yourself rewards? (Rewrite the CV=get a new Xbox) During one looooong search early in my career, I used to buy a lottery ticket for every application I got in. Figured eventually I’d get lucky one way or the other.

      Good luck!

        1. burnt out*

          No, THANK YOU for the essay, haha! All of your advice is really helpful and reassuring. Thankfully I have my SO around to remind me to take breaks and set limits on how much time I spend job hunting.

          Honestly, part of my problem is that I had unrealistic expectations of what is a reasonable timeframe for job hunting. I dilly-dallied about actually leaving my organization for about 12 months, but once I finally decided to pull the trigger I was desperate to leave and thinking things like: “I’m sure in 2 months I won’t have to deal with this BS anymore.” (Soooo optimistic!) I started working for this organization right out of school and have been there ever since (in varied positions with consistent promotions and growing levels of responsibility), so I’ve never really been through this before.

          Thank you for all your advice and kind words :)

    2. Frankie Bergstein*

      To me, this sounds normal. Applying for a job is hard work. The very definition of burnout is that it’s hard to do work!

      Your ratio – lots of applications and one interview – also sounds very reasonable to me based on friends’ recent job searches. I think more specifics – like your area, what you’re applying to – would make a response to your question more useful, but I understand wanting to keep those things confidential.

      All this is to say, there’s nothing in your post that stands out to me as “burnt out really needs to do X.”

  84. AnonEMoose*

    A friend was posting about this elsewhere, and I’m curious to see what folks here think. Friend has been tasked with doing some research on software for their company. Friend very specifically asked for answers to specific questions via email, and asked for responses via email (because they are not the one making the decision, and need to pass that information to those in the company who will be making the decision).

    So, a Salesbeing from one of the companies tried to call Friend (Problem #1, from my perspective – Friend specifically requested responses via email). Salesbeing got voicemail, because Friend’s company is WFH right now. Instead of leaving a message or reverting to email, Salesbeing got a switchboard person (Problem #2) on the phone, and Switchboard Person gave Salesbeing Friend’s personal cell phone number (Problem #3 – big, BIG problem).

    My suggestion was that Friend should raise this as a potential safety issue with Friend’s company, because Switchboard Person had no way of knowing that Salesbeing was who they said they were. If it was this easy for Salesbeing, how easy would it be for a person with bad intentions toward Friend to do something similar?

    Also, on a personal note, my impulse would be to tell someone who did not abide by my specific request for method of contact “Congratulations. You just lost this and all future sales to my employer for your company.” I don’t care what your reasoning is. Not even a little. If you can’t abide by one basic request, I don’t want to work with you. If you REALLY MUST attempt to schedule a phone call, at least have the courtesy to respond to the email and say something like “I want to understand more about the details of your request/need a bit more information about X to respond to Y question. Could we schedule a brief phone conversation?” Engage in this kind of social engineering, and I will default to assuming that you, at the least, do not understand boundaries.

    What does everyone else think about how Friend could best address this with their bosses?

    1. The Rural Juror*

      Similarly (but at the same time not all that similarly), I was on a conference call and was getting email blasts from a salesperson. I work in construction and this was a salesperson who I had asked to quote a portion of the materials for a project. I emailed them back after the 3rd email in 10 minutes to let them know I was in the middle of a meeting (!) and they were going to have to wait.

      This guy took it upon himself to go to the job site uninvited and realized once he got there that there is a security gate. His emails were all something like, “I’m at the gate. What’s the code?”, “Here’s my cell number, can you text me the gate code?”, “Is there someone on site that can let me in?”, etc.

      So all of this was seriously distracting me from my meeting and I was getting VERY annoyed. After I got off the conference call, I called him back. I told him there’s a construction entrance for this very reason and that, if he’s going to visit the site, he has to go through that entrance and check in with the site supervisor. Well, too late. He had already followed someone else through the gate when they punched in their code to get in. So he circumvented the security rules to get into a place he hadn’t been cleared to visit in the first place.

      It’s not a life or death situation, or even a big enough breach to cause anyone harm or danger, but it was someone being pretty bull-headed and not bothering to go through proper channels. On top of that, someone else let him in without bothering to know who he was or if he was even allowed to be there. So yeah, I think I’ll go with their competitor to buy those materials now…I’m not happy with that salesperson!

      If I were your friend, I would raise the issue to my higher ups. I would approach it like, “I was surprised to get a call on my personal cell from someone outside our company. I found out they had been given that contact information by the switchboard operator. Is there a way to keep personal information like that from reaching people who aren’t a part of our organization?”

      1. AnonEMoose*

        Wow, that’s just…wow. I mean, the repeated emails are bad enough, but actually trespassing on the site? Yeah, I’d have gone with the competitor, too, and told them why.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I like to think I’d call the main office and ask for a different sales rep.
          Makes the point that you’re rejecting behavior not product.

    2. True North*

      Yep – this is something that would be a big black check mark for me. That said, if the software solution were absolutely fantastic and their corporate service was structured completely separately from their sales org, I wouldn’t write them off completely. There are some good products out there that have just built bad sales practices. While the impulse not to reward this is strong, I still feel like the merits of the product need to be measured independently.

      The behavior The Rural Juror mentions below would be a complete and total blackball as far as I was concerned though.

    3. ferrina*

      For Switchboard Person- yes, they shouldn’t have given out the phone number, but how I would approach this would depend on my relationship with them. If I had a good relationship, I’d start by approaching them personally first. They probably thought they were being helpful. If I don’t know them, then yes, raise it to manager and higher ups to get a policy in place, particularly for the pandemic time. I like Rural Juror’s script.

      For Salesbeing- wait, their only crime was to call instead of email? Unless this person was really rude or otherwise pushy, I wouldn’t take it as terrible. Some sales practices are to always talk to someone- sometimes teams or companies even require that. When they call, just reiterate “I need an email” and move on. I don’t see a need to blacklist unless things escalate. The sales team is usually separate from other teams, so it’s not indicative of the product at all. I’d also worry about repercussions for Friend. If they refuse to include info on a software just because they got a phone call instead of an email, their boss might be rightfully upset.

      Now if it was someone like Rural Juror’s story, then RUN. Buy nothing, cut them off from everything and report them to their boss.

      1. AnonEMoose*

        Calling instead of emailing wasn’t the only thing. I would actually count the getting the personal cell phone number as a bigger issue. And it’s not Friend’s decision, so I wouldn’t refuse to provide the info, either. I would, though, absolutely make sure that the higher-ups know about what occurred.

        I personally do seeing calling instead of emailing, when emailing was specifically requested, as pushy and possibly borderline rude. As the person who is requesting the information…I don’t know and don’t care what another company’s rules are. I asked for the information that way because that’s how I need it. And since I’d be the one representing the company looking to spend money at this point…I would expect my clearly expressed preference to take priority. At the very least, I’d be annoyed and saying something like “I specifically requested an email response. Could you tell me why that was not provided?”

    4. JustaTech*

      Problem 3 needs to get run up the ladder – you really shouldn’t give out people’s personal cell phone numbers without express permission. I’m dealing with this right now because I had to give a vendor my personal cell number so I could talk to tech support (they only call back, no transfers). I was very clear that they were not to use this number except for that one day. Now some completely different division of the company has given the number to their sales call centers so I keep having to tell some powerless person in a call center to take my number off the list. Argh.

      As for parts 1 and 2, I’ve recently learned that for many sales organizations that e-mails don’t “count” as customer contact, you have to have a phone conversation. I assume this is because it’s easier to ignore emails, but if you actually get someone on the phone you might actually get a sale. For everyone who wants their vendor contacts in writing it’s super annoying, and usually after the initial contact you can get the sales folks to stick to email. So the initial call is understandable, but the persistence is frustrating.

    5. BRR*

      Calling instead of emailing on its own, annoying but nowhere near “you lost all future business here.” My experience with vendors is its very very common for them to prefer phone. It doesn’t make it right for them to ignore your request but I think it’s an extreme reaction to blacklist them. If they called the switchboard after not reaching your friend (and was not just transferred automatically), that’s getting a little too pushy but even then, if I needed the product I’d put up with it.

      Problem 3. Big big issue. Your friend needs to bring this to their boss’ attention or HR or someone immediately. I would almost say it’s never ok to give out someone’s information to an outside caller.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I would go further: it’s always inappropriate to give out personal information of any kind. Bcc that mailing list even.

    6. Squirrely*

      I had a version of this talk with our Ops person this week, and just was like “please ask them to email me instead!”

      I don’t have a work cell like some colleagues, and had purposely given this contact my work phone… but in COVID we’ve been loosey goosey about this, and she can give my cell to internal folx…

      So I just mentioned it matter of factly and moved on.

      No advice on Salesbeing!

    7. Pocket Mouse*

      I’m not convinced Switchboard People should have access to personal cell numbers at all.

  85. Hunnybee*

    Any advice on balancing multiple interviews (with multiple companies) while still working FTE?

    I’m trying to give everything 100%, but its exhausting.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Do you need help with managing the logistics or your mental health? For logistics if you have to take a bunch of time off I’d mention off-hand that you are making up a bunch of health appointments that you put off during the pandemic. If you wear glasses/contacts you can also just say you have eye appointments, there are sooooo many follow ups that can come from getting glasses adjusted or trying out a new brand/shape of contact lens.

      For your mental health, really prioritize your down time. Dedicate time and energy to interview prep, but also be sure to dedicate time and energy to taking care of yourself. And when it’s dedicated you time, don’t let outside things creep in or try to multitask.

      Good luck with your interviews, I hope they’re successful!

      1. Hunnybee*

        Thank you! It’s partially the scheduling — I’m actively interviewing with several companies — but as the interviews progress they are longer, and that is potentially going to affect my ability to schedule the interviews during my core hours.

        I’m actually finding myself get a little crabby each time I get a new interview request. But a few months ago, nobody responded to me at all, so I try to remember that.

    2. ferrina*

      Stop giving everything 100%. It’s okay! Really!

      Think about what is truly the single most important thing to you right now, focus on that, and let the rest be okay-but-not-your-absolute-best. It’s okay to be just okay.
      What this might look like:
      – Doing less interview prep for jobs that you’re less interested in.
      – Have a set time where you stop checking email.
      – Skate by at work for a week or two (say you’re under the weather or getting pandemic fatigue).
      – If you’ve got the PTO, call out sick for a day to do an interview, then spend the rest of the day relaxing and recharging.
      – Let the housework go for a couple weeks.

      Remember that recharging is ultimately going to pay off- you can’t be your best when you’re exhausted.
      Good luck!

  86. wannabe job hopper?*

    I started a new job in the new year after spending about 6 years in my previous job.

    The new job is *okay* but I have a lot of qualms, mostly my very micromanaging boss, and the fact that even though my title is higher and my salary is much better than my old job, I am bored and underutilized. This COULD improve over time, but I suspect it won’t. I don’t have chemistry with my team at all, and there are a lot of days I feel really bad about it. Overall it’s a decent job, and I have a positive view of the company overall, but my team and day to day are just not cutting it for me. However, I wouldn’t call it a toxic environment, or one that I really need to leave ASAP. I just don’t really feel like I fit in, and the day to day is just meh. Everyone else seems stressed out and overwhelmed, but it’s honestly a cakewalk next to my last job.

    After spending so much time at my old company out of loyalty and because I loved my team, I took this job because it was a very significant pay raise and “promotion.” I was interviewing for other jobs but this one came through with the top of my requested salary range and I had contacts who worked here already so I went for it. I was more interested in this other job but at the point I interviewed, right after I received an offer from my current place, they weren’t able to move fast enough to get me an offer, so I took this one because I was desperate to leave my former employer.

    I 100% would have taken the other job if it was offered to me. So fast forward to this week, I received an email from the person who interviewed me asking if I would be interested in talking again. My gut tells me I should just stick it out at this place for at least a year.. like I said, it’s not BAD, I’m just not sure I see it long term (and there are always potential future team changes etc that could potentially improve it a lot). However, this other job would give me change I DEFINITELY want and experience I don’t have.

    My thought is to just contact them down the road, but not entertain it now because if I do and decide not to leave, I don’t want to jeopardize future opportunities with them. But at the same time I’m kind of bummed about it because I think it would have been a much better fit.

    Does anyone see any value in exploring this now, or should I put it off and a) see if it improves here and b) reach out down the road if not?

    I just don’t know. After my last job, I don’t ever want to “settle in” to a company for years if I’m not being valued, so I’m trying to change my longevity mindset, but leaving a job that’s so-so after a few months just seems not to be the right move. But I’m also not sure if I just don’t know if I can handle another big change like that not too long after just doing it.

    1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      Does anyone see any value in exploring this now, or should I put it off and a) see if it improves here and b) reach out down the road if not?

      Talk to the second company. If the job is a better fit, and you’re going to stay for 30+ months, a 6 month position between a 6–year and a 2½ year position won’t look bad.

      You sound miserable and settling for misery won’t end well.

      1. ferrina*

        I second that. There’s no point in waiting until the 1 year mark when you’ve already got another company that’s interested in talking to you. Besides, you have no idea how this talk will go.
        Even if this talk doesn’t go well, there’s no harm in sending out your resumes now. You’re not happy, you won’t be happy for the foreseeable future, and you’ve got a track record of staying at another company long term. The market is tough right now and it might take some time to find the right fit, but you’ve got time to really find a strong fit.

        The concern with job hopping isn’t a single bad fit- it’s a history of job hopping. You don’t have that.

      2. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

        All of this. Literally, the first couple paragraphs of this letter read like a post I made nearly three years ago when I started working for a previous company that was supposed to be a step up and ended up being much slower paced and boring than I was told. It was a miserable 17 months, and I should have left sooner.

        If you get the new job, take it and don’t look back. I jumped ship as soon as something better came along, and I don’t regret it for a minute. It was the best career decision I’ve ever made.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        Definitely talk to them.
        I don’t think this current place is going to be good for the long run.

    2. Not A Manager*

      “if I do and decide not to leave, I don’t want to jeopardize future opportunities with them.”

      I think this is mistaken. They’ve reached out to you to see if you’re interested, knowing that you recently accepted another offer because they couldn’t move quickly enough. The ball is in your court, and it’s totally appropriate to respond to their overture, even if you don’t ultimately move forward with them. (Or they with you! They wouldn’t be burning a bridge if they talked to you again and then decided not to make an offer at this time.)

      I also don’t think leaving one job after four months, when your previous job was six years, is job-hopping. Nor do I think it would be materially *less* job hopping if you stayed for a full year.

    3. Fiona*

      DEFINITELY talk to them. It’s just a talk. Even if you do leave your current gig, I would never consider you a “job hopper.” I consider job hopping a string of very short term jobs that allude to the person not being able to commit or see things through. Your previous stint of 6 years means you now have earned a bit of flexibility.

  87. Salary question*

    How long is an adequate amount of time for management/HR to take to let me know if I will have a new title and salary?
    I started at a company in 5/2019. I have been doing the work of a technical writer (I had no experience doing this type of work). I have had the title and pay of an admin. In December 2020, I asked for a salary review/title change so that it aligns with my actual work and market rate for salary.
    Also, if possible please provide links to AAM articles regarding resume and cover letters. Thanks.

    1. TWW*

      Years ago, I started writing technical documents when my official job title was “Tech Support Rep.” I did that for a couple of years, and did not acquire the title “Tech Writer” until the official tech writer at my company left, leaving that position open for me to apply for.

      It’s frustrating, but it seems to be a pretty common story among tech writers. It’s the sort of profession that you sneak into.

      1. Salary question*

        According to my supervisor, this position / tech writer does not exist at my company. So being that it is a new position, they didn’t know what the title should be initially. And now supervisor is planning to have a meeting with HR to find out how they can give me a new title / higher salary.
        Thanks for writing and sharing your experience as a tech writer.

    2. Qwerty*

      Have you followed up with anyone since Dec 2020? What did they? What kind of timeline did they give? Does your manager support the change and is she helping to advocate for you?

      I’m not sure why you are asking commenters to search through AAM for you rather than exploring the site. There’s literally an entire section on cover letters and another on resumes plus a search feature.

      1. Salary question*

        Yes, I did follow-up and the supervisor is scheduling a meeting with HR.

        About resume and cover letters: I have read some of the posts…I thought someone could direct me to a post that they found especially helpful. That is all.

  88. Primavera*

    I do hiring at my job and reject a fair number of candidates after seeing their application. I assume this is totally normal. But I’ve been getting back a lot of emails (at least a few a week) asking how I knew they weren’t a fit if I didn’t talk to them or saying that since they technically match all the minimum requirements, I should be obligated to at least interview them.

    They’re not addressed to me—it’s a response to an automatic rejection email. Should I respond with feedback? Or share how hiring works? Is this an indication that our listed requirements might need adjusting?

    Anecdotally, they only come from men. I know men are more likely to apply for jobs they don’t meet the minimum requirements for.

    1. Camelid coordinator*

      You don’t need to reply. I don’t think this conversation would go well or be worth your time.

  89. PetParent*

    It feels like it’s a complicated question but I guess it’s kind of easy – I’m currently shirking a responsibility for work and ignoring a coworkers messages because A-I’ve technically had today marked as vacation for like a month because I wanted a long weekend, but had reluctantly agreed to do something earlier in the week because it would get somebody to calm down about a project and B-My pet, who has been with me for 20 years, is feeling sick and I’m waiting for the vet appointment to find out if this is just another false alarm with a small, treatable problem or it’s The Day.

    I feel like I can’t just message back and be like “my pet is sick, I just can’t” but calling it a family emergency seems like too much in an office where everyone except me has kids. We’re the type of office where they’ll ask if everybody is alright and want to help, out of actual genuine concern.

    So I’m just dodging.

    I guess what I’m wondering is, if one of my coworkers told me their pet was sick I would immediately say “let me know what you need, forget the deadline, I’m here for you” but I don’t know, is that how most people feel? Or would it be more common to get a “okay, that’s sad and all, but this is your job…”

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      I legit was in this spot a handful of weeks ago (like I thought it was The Day), and I say you tell them you have an emergency. Go and feel zero guilt about it. Internet hugs if you want them. Moments like this with senior pets are very difficult.

      1. PetParent*

        Thank you, I appreciate the internet hugs. I’m a bit of a wreck right now, and I’m overthinking everything.

        Having a senior pet is so amazing and rewarding but the emotions end up being so strong and overwhelming.

    2. ferrina*

      You could go with “personal emergency”. A pet definitely fits in this category.

      That said, most people should understand. I recently had a cat pass away and took a personal day. I stated the reason and everyone was very supported (particularly the people that had pets)

      Sending love your way.

    3. Frankie Bergstein*

      I’m so sorry about what’s happening with your furry one! That’s stressful.

      -Human of two very elder furry creatures

    4. PetParent*

      I just wanted to do a quick update now that we’ve finally got more answers.

      Today is not The Day, it was basically the standard false alarm routine of senior pets. She’s got some new medicines and she’s sleeping in a sunbeam, meanwhile I need a really long nap.

      <3

  90. Ready to Move on*

    Hello all – thank you for your thoughtful responses to my question last week regarding feeling bad about leaving a company that was recently very supportive of a family health crisis. You’ve made me feel so much better about making this move.

    I did get an amazing offer this week from the company I described. Everything about the offer is absolutely great – great starting salary that’s in line with my experience and expectations (a 40% bump from where I currently am, which was an intentional step down), fabulous bonus structure, great health and retirement benefits. The offer is so good that I don’t really have to negotiate much! I do have 2 things I need to talk through with them and would love your collective wisdom:

    First: This is a telecommute position. I am Director level with lots of internal exposure/cross-functional presentation, coordination, etc. All associates are currently remote, but when they go back to the corporate office, it would be expected that I would come in to the office what has so far been described as “occasionally”. I have done this type of position before and telecommuted, with these types of responsibilities, but based on what I’ve been reading here I think I’d like to get some sort of written agreement with regard to what this will look like in case the position changes over time. This becomes even more important because I would be responsible for paying my corporate travel to/from the corporate office (and they are giving me a significant signing bonus in light of that). So I want to set boundaries around this from the beginning, and have it documented so that we can all be clear. Has anyone ever done anything like that, and if so, what advice do you have? This seems like it will become even more relevant in post-pandemic world.

    Second, my current title is VP and this new position is a title step down to a Director role. This is not unusual in my field – particularly when you are moving industry side from agency side (as I currently am), trading down a title notch or two is not unusual. I did see, however, that they have a Senior Director title option that has some implications with regard to their LTIP bonus structure. I was thinking about trying to negotiate for a title change – but this might have ramifications from an HR perspective (e.g. this was the position that was approved, getting the title changed would take time). Would love to hear thoughts on negotiating a title change as part of a job offer? Or is it better to just have a conversation with the hiring VP (my boss) about building a performance plan headed toward the title step up within a year?

    Can’t thank this amazing community enough for all of the collective wisdom here. I’ve been trolling through old posts, ordered Allison’s book… it’s wonderful.

  91. Time for Tea*

    I’m in the middle of both a divorce and a job search. I’ve got two young kids. Any tips on how to screen for places that have a good work-life balance and flexibility? Tips in general?

    1. Anonymous healthcare person*

      I’m so sorry you’re dealing with all of this. I went through the same general situation a number of years ago. In my case, the job search was a result of the separation/divorce and my priority was needing to increase my income as much as possible. Given that, in my profession that would involve childcare unfriendly hours. My ex was not reliable for childcare, so I therefore focused on finding childcare in the evenings/weekends as I already had good childcare for other times. I had a good network of friends (minimal local family) who helped in a variety of ways. I also tried to keep the living/social/school situation as stable as possible for my kid. The out of hours childcare ended up being with a longstanding friend that my kid knew well, with some back-ups from other friends as needed. I did pay her too, it ended up being 1-2 evenings a week.

      The point in all this being, what is your situation and needs? Will your ex, and/or family, do a lot of childcare? Is your childcare provider flexible if/when work hours change (that is, if you already have one)? If so, maybe work hours can be less of a priority in finding a job, and money, or career advancement, or something else, can be a primary focus.

      How old are your kids? Younger kids of course can’t ever be left alone, older ones (12 and up, often) may be able to walk home from school and spend a couple of hours alone before you get home home from work. Or maybe even look after younger kids for brief periods of time, depending on ages, personalities, support close by, etc. Some kids are more responsible/calm than others, regardless of age, of course.

      How much will you get in terms of child support and spousal support? I recommend at least talking to a lawyer as in my experience people don’t know what they are entitled to. You may be entitled to enough support that you can work part-time instead of full-time, for example. The laws around $ will vary a huge amount depending on where you are.

      Do you need to move, given the divorce? Will that change the support network that you and your children have? Kids who aren’t dealing with changing schools, sports teams and friends, as well as divorce, may be a bit easier to parent. And the fewer changes for you, the better, in terms of parenting/working/general health and functioning in the huge stress of divorce. Of course you may HAVE to change a lot of stuff – but just consider what stressors and changes may not be needed, or can be delayed for a while.

      Also, if you are looking for work in a profession/field you know well, you should already have some info on local companies, general requirements of the profession, and hopefully a network of past/current colleagues to get info from, in terms of work-life balance and parent-friendly workplaces, if any in your field. If it’s a field new to you, hey, AAM is a great resource!

      Oh, and being on-call, shift work, or casual work is really tough as a single parent, unless you have close family or very close friends that are reliable, flexible and available. Possible, but tough unless you have retired parents or similar close by. If you and your ex each have the kids half-time, that can make it easier, as you can maybe do on-call the week you don’t have the kids, for example.

      Good luck! Oh, and take a look at single-parent and co-parenting resources in your area. Suppirt groups, classes like Parenting After Separation, family support of various kinds, are all really worth looking at.

  92. JustAnotherWorkerBee*

    Any ideas for improving communication or asking about how to do so with a sort-of-new manager? I worked with my past supervisor for many years, so we had our communications worked out pretty well. With this sort-of-new manager, at least a couple of times a week, we’ll have a conversation or email to identify the next step on a project. And then in the next few days when that project comes up, he states something completely different from what we had discussed previously, with no indication of “I know we’d talked about this, but I’ve rethought” or something similar. Then I’m left with work done incorrectly and feeling really confused (and sometimes really dumb, when I bring up something in a meeting and there’s a 180 turn). There’s no malice, so I don’t think I’m being gaslighted, but I am starting to doubt my sanity and memory of these previous conversations. I’ve tried both written and verbal communications, but this happens with both. And this manager has been in place long enough that it feels weird to ask the best way to communicate with him. Any guidance would really be appreciated.

    1. Workerbee*

      This sounds like aspects of two bosses I used to have. Alas, my advice is that you will be better off without such a boss.

      For one, it was gaslighting—in my case, I got to the point of writing down verbatim what one boss had said for me to do, only for her to tell me in our next meeting, where she said I did it wrong, that she had never and would never say what I’d written down!— sent me into Imposter Syndrome land for my next job.

      The other boss wrote things down wrong from the start, including things he himself said, and by doing that to everybody, managed to stall a major project for three years and nearly capsize it entirely before senior leadership finally got rid of him. I still don’t know if he just hated the project, was being deliberately obtuse so he wouldn’t have to do actual work, or was just stupid.

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I also worked with someone like this. I got very tired of it, very quickly, and I started job searching. Stop feeling dumb. It’s not you. This guy is the one messing up, he’s inconsistent and isn’t acknowledging it. Try to get everything in writing, because then you have a written trail that supports that you did what you were instructed. Even if those instructions changed.

      For some people like this, it might be helpful (might) to specifically state that you’re not a mind reader, so if something changes he has to remember to let you know.

    3. Wordybird*

      This sounds like an ADHD thing to me. At least, this is how hundreds of conversations I’ve had with my ex have gone over the years, and I definitely questioned my memory & sanity more than once.

      Things I have found helpful that you could (maybe) apply in this situation would be seeing if there are any tasks you are currently gathering his input/opinion about that don’t require it and just doing those on your own, seeing if you notice a pattern in his forgetfulness e.g. is it related to a certain type of task or a certain type of knowledge, is it related to a certain company or project, etc., offering him as few options as possible as often as possible, overcommunicating by sending regular reminders about what you’re going to discuss and what you did just discuss in a breezy of-course-we’re-doing-it-this-way manner that doesn’t make it easy for him to change his mind.

      Good luck! I know how difficult it is to work with someone like that.

  93. cult listed as job experience?*

    Hi, I posted this on quick questions for Alison but didn’t get selected, so here goes… A job candidate had spent a year in a ‘religious camp’ and was currently looking for employment. I looked it up, looked like a cult. I think I would have been more perfectly fine if she had, for example, volunteered at a religious charity or gone to meditate in Tibet. But this place sounded, at least according to the website (and discussions about it on reddit etc), fanatical and weird. Apart from that her resume checked out. I interviewed her and she just explained she had to ‘mature’ as a person at this camp, but now wanted to go back to her career. I didn’t push too much because I was concerned about sounding discriminatory. From the way she talked it didn’t sound like there was any coercion and she didn’t go on about her religion or anything. Still she wasn’t the right fit technically so not hiring was an easy decision, but it made me wonder. Like, if I rejected her based on the fact that it was a cult would that have been religious discrimination? What does it really say about a person that they joined a cult? And supposing she isn’t actually a fanatic, what should she have done about her resume to avoid making a bad impression on employers? I’m probably not the only hiring manager who would be weirded out by this, but a year is long enough (and there were no jobs in between) so she would have to talk about it.

    1. JustaTech*

      Honestly I would say that being part of a cult *and* putting it on her resume makes me question her judgement. If she’s gotten sucked into a cult and escaped I wouldn’t hold it against her, but she probably wouldn’t be putting it on her resume. She could fill that year gap with a “dealing with a family issue that’s been resolved” (not even lying, because most cults call themselves “family”).

      Personally I would have a lot more questions for someone who said they worked accounts payable for Weird Creepy Cult than for someone who just had a gap. And the whole “had to ‘mature’ as a person” for someone in the middle of their career (not straight out of school), all of that is weird and again, shows questionable judgement.

      So it’s not that you’d be discriminating against her religion (I’m pretty sure cults aren’t religions, but that’s a giant can of worms), but rather you’re taking the information provided and making a judgment about her ability to do the job well. If she’d taken a year to work for one of those sketchy stadium-filling Life Coach type people you’d probably have the same reaction, which is different than religious discrimination.

    2. Qwerty*

      Yeah, that sounds pretty close to religious discrimination. You are clearly judging her for her religion. Companies don’t really get to decide which religions are ok and which ones make someone unhireable. A former coworker of mine tried to reject a candidate because his previous work was with a very mainstream faith and claimed it was a cult. Her bias is no more acceptable than yours. Most mainstream religions have been seen as cult-like at some point another – it all has to do with perspective.

      Another red flag here is you were more concerned about “sounding discriminatory” than about actually discriminating against her. You were trying to figure out whether her religion was valid! In an interview!! I really suggest you do some learning on religious tolerance.

    3. NRG*

      If you are in the US, it’s their religion if they say it is. Cult-looking or otherwise. Are there things from that experience that are job relevant? Or is it listed as an “extra” activity?

    4. PollyQ*

      Once you say, “I would accept this kind of religious activity but not this other kind” then you are definitely discriminating based on religion. And many people of all theological stripes could use the “what does it say about a person” argument for anyone who doesn’t share their particular beliefs (including some atheists who think all religions are cults.)

      Furthermore, you don’t know what her current beliefs are. “I needed to mature” may be her way of saying, “It took me a year to realize that this was a cult.” My advice to her would be to explain the gap by calling it a “religious retreat,” and my advice to you is (1) to read up on employment law and (2) worry less about judging employees by their personal lives.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      What does it really say about a person that they joined a cult?
      They are human like the rest of us.

      And supposing she isn’t actually a fanatic, what should she have done about her resume to avoid making a bad impression on employers?
      Leave it off her resume.

    6. Dark Macadamia*

      I think it’s weird that she put it on her resume – did she list it as a job/volunteer work? Or was it one of those cringy “fun facts” type things where people share inappropriate personal details to “stand out”?

      I also think it’s weird you asked about it unless it was directly related to what she said on the resume, like “what kind of duties did this volunteer position involve?”

  94. Healthy, Happy, and Raring to Go*

    I’m looking for advice and resources for reentering the workforce as an over 60 year old. I have little paid experience and can’t use my volunteer references for safety reasons. I left a very long term abusive situation and had. a lot of therapy and support. I’m doing really well and I want to start working again.

    Reading AAM helped me realize that I am ready to go to work. I’ve looked at volunteering, but it seems like they prefer donations rather than volunteers. I just need a way to get started. Any suggestions and resources are welcome.

    1. WellRed*

      Depending on what experience/skills you do have, can you try a temp agency? Also, I know it’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but retail to get back into the swing of working? otherwise, I’m afraid your options are limited with no references. Did you work with any sort of domestic group to get free? Do they have any advice or resources? They must see this sort of thing all the time.
      Good luck!

      1. WellRed*

        I just reread. It looks like you are looking to stay active and engaged in general? Maybe a class or two at the local u or adult education? A good way to brush up on skills or develop interests, and possibly network a bit

    2. Not A Manager*

      You don’t mention the kind of work you’re looking for. If you’re looking for non-professional side gigs, take a look at Next Door or similar neighborhood sites. People post for recommendations for things like architects and gardeners, but also for less-professional things like help organizing their garage, or someone to cook dinner twice a week, or help with home bookkeeping and filing.

      These might provide enough side gigs for you, but even if they don’t, you will get your foot in the door for making contacts, having some actual references, having a more current resume. Depending on what kind of workplace re-entry you’re looking for, references from these types of projects can be useful for entry-level jobs even if they don’t involve the same skills. People can speak to your timeliness, reliability, intelligence, flexibility, etc.

    3. OyHiOh*

      In many US counties, United Way has a reentry to work program for exactly people like you, or a temp agency might help too. I’d check out United Way first though because it’s really designed for people who have challenging resumes and little to no paid work experience.

    4. a tired lil' bean*

      If you’re in the U.S., try AmeriCorps or Senior Corps! It’s paid volunteer service, often at a higher level than regular community volunteering. Allows you to gain experience, develop a professional network, and gain future professional references. AmeriCorps programs have been dramatically expanded due to COVID-19, and most communities have *many* opportunities to serve either remotely or in-person around a wide variety of issues.

    5. Unkempt Flatware*

      In my state, there are state-sponsored programs that place folks looking to get back into the working world. These help area non-profits benefit from labor at no cost to them and also provides coaching and mentorship for the employee as well as market rate pay. Check at your state’s labor agency. Mine in my state is called the department of economic security.

    6. JustaTech*

      First, congratulations on getting to a safer place!
      Depending on the kind of volunteer work you want to do there might be in-person opportunities (beyond being a donor). I know the soup kitchen where I volunteer (except not because COVID) is still taking people in-person to work in the kitchen, and my friend’s environmental group is now doing landscape restoration work groups that are almost exclusively retirees (because they’re vaccinated). Both of these are pretty physical jobs, and I don’t know if that would work for you.

      As for paid work, my grandfather got a post-retirement job (that man could not stop working) as a letter stuffer for the IRS – there’s more seasonal office work out there than most people realize.

      Good luck!

      1. OyHiOh*

        The US National Parks system hires tons of seasonal summer staff. They might be more difficult to hire with because its US federal government and notorious for requirements but might be worth a shot, especially if you’re up for living in a new locale for the summer.

    7. Alexis Rosay*

      Maybe check out Volunteermatch.com so you can get connected with organizations that actually want volunteers and rebuild your network/references.

    8. emotional emu*

      my mother took a tax-preparer’s class from H & R block, in sept-dec. in Jan or Feb they hired her to do (simple) taxes. My understanding is the longer you work for them, the more courses you take and the more advanced returns you can do. She had to pay for the initial course though.

  95. 2Teas*

    How long should I give a new workload my best attempt before I go to my boss to say it is not possible to do that much in a shift? We have industry standard times to back up my claim and I have been recording actual daily times.
    This workload increase comes from a simple statement the Grand boss made, they want x done twice daily. They do not realize that adds 3.5 manpower hours a day.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Yes, immediately.
      If you knew in advance it would add 3.5 hours to your day, you could have brought it up to your immediate boss right away. As in “If I’m calibrating the teapot polishing machine twice a day, what do you want me to stop doing?”

    3. Less Bread More Taxes*

      If it were a task that takes, say 15 minutes, I would say you should wait it out and see if you can save time elsewhere during your other tasks. But 3.5 hours is unrealistic for anyone. Definitely bring that up as soon as possible.

  96. Anon for This*

    University setting. I am faculty. We have a union. We’ve been told that we’ll be “returning to normal” come hell or high water in the fall. We’ve all been working remotely and I’ve come to really prefer it. Word on the street is that my boss is going to push for us to come into the campus full time with no remote work at all. Per our union lawyer, as long as you’re showing up for your on campus appointments and teaching commitments, faculty have the right to work from wherever.

    I would really rather not go nuclear. I am trying to find a diplomatic way to come up with a script referencing that I’m exercising my rights as faculty that doesn’t sound like I’m a troublemaker. Any suggestions?

    1. Pam Adams*

      Are you tenured or tenure-track? What about your committee assignments? You may be able to do your research from anywhere, but if the university requires in-person classes and office hours, you may be stuck.

      1. Anon for This*

        Fully tenured. I have no problem coming on campus for meetings or teaching. Meetings sound like they will mostly be done via Zoom for a while.

    2. TWW*

      As long as you teach classes, show up to faculty meetings, and are available to meet students at your posted office hours, will anyone really notice if you do the rest of your work off campus?

      Sounds like a case where it’s better to just do it and see if you can get away with it.

    3. BRR*

      What were you doing before? Every college I’ve ever known faculty have done a lot of remote work when it comes to lesson planning and grading etc.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      If you were doing some parts from home before Covid, why can’t you continue to do so?

      1. Anon for This*

        According to the lawyer, I can. But it’s one thing for me to formally grieve something and it’s another for me to be able to go to my boss discreetly and present what the lawyer has told me is my right in a way that doesn’t make waves. That’s what I’m trying to figure out. How do I do the latter so that I don’t end up with my name on a list and end up paying for this for the next 20 years?

        1. Not So NewReader*

          The lawyer can give you talking points to help effectively persuade the boss. These talking points do not need to include the part of explaining a lawyer told you so. A good counter-argument stands on its own two feet, no matter who says it.

  97. clover*

    Anyone have advice or helpful resources on how to take good meeting notes and meeting minutes?

    1. Purple Penguin*

      I took a multi-day class on note taking when I was the assistant chair to a big multi-national executive committee. Saying this to highlight there are so many theories and methods on notetaking.

      To my mind, the essentials are: 1) Knowing the purpose of your notes. Is there a legal framework that guides how the notes must look. Will someone else besides you look at them? Are you expected to do verbatim note taking or only action items? 2) What is your style of note taking. Do you prefer typing or handwriting or a combo of the two? Is there an agenda or a template for you to follow and if so, what is its form.

      Beyond the basics, I know that the digital project manager website has a few posts on notetaking that might be helpful.

    2. Mental Lentil*

      I make liberal use of whitespace vertically. Dense notes don’t really work for me because I may need to go back and get more information and annotate them.

      I put the speaker’s initials in the left hand column.

      I put an asterisk in the right hand column if there is a task to be done, along with the initials of who is responsible for doing it. If it’s a question we need an answer to, I’ll use a question mark instead of an asterisk.

    3. ecnaseener*

      As much as you can, try to wait for a person to finish a complete thought before you write what they said. The most ineffective note-taking I’ve witnessed is the kind that tries to get every word down in real-time (this is nearly impossible, and inevitably important info gets missed).

      Sometimes a complete thought takes a few sentences — so it can be helpful to jot down the general topic of their sentence as soon as you figure it out, then wait for the whole thing to come together.

      So, if Jane says “The problem with grooming the llamas assembly-line style is that it forces us into a rigid process. I know that we have good reasons for grooming the llamas the way we do, but we really need to have more flexibility. What if we all stood around in a circle and groomed whatever part of the llama we can reach, and slowly rotate around?”
      …then at the beginning you’d write “Jane: assembly line – ” and then add “rigid” and then once she’s finished you would add “suggest rotating around llama for flexibility”

    4. LQ*

      What is the reason for taking notes? Is it to help pay attention? Is it to send things out later as formal documentation? Is it for your own review later?

      This is always the biggest thing for me. Formal Meeting Minutes are generally way less detailed than you think or than normal meeting notes are.

      Your own task management would be to look at bullet journaling.

      When I was in person still I had a 3 notebook system for doing it which sounds convoluted but was actually really effective. One for meeting/agenda, one for pay attention look up later, one for TASKS I MUST DO.

  98. Caregiver-ish*

    This is something I’ve started to become worried about as I get older. My mother is 75 and I’m her only caregiver, although she can live independently at the moment. I am looking for jobs that are in a different location (but not too far away) from the city we currently live in. One of my greatest fears as I am starting to get my career off the ground is dealing with her estate after she passes away (hopefully that won’t be for a long time!!). I am an only child and the executor and it will be up to me to deal with the estate, sell her house, etc. after she passes.

    What gives me anxiety is… HOW do people manage to do this while a) working full-time and b) living in another city (that isn’t close by!)? At my current work place (which isn’t great for my future career prospects), I’d actually just be able to take a leave of absence (unpaid) for the amount of time and it honestly, wouldn’t be a big problem. However, I’m interviewing with another organization and I’ve skimmed through their policy manual and it looks like there’s only a few days for bereavement and that’s it. There isn’t a leave of absence policy. Ugh. It makes me really worry about *how* I’d deal with this stuff, if I ended up getting a job there. I’m sure their policies are in line with a lot of other organizations, versus my current workplace.

    I guess my question is, how do people deal with this stuff when their parents pass away and there’s no one else who can do the administrative tasks? If I only get 5 days of bereavement, how on earth am I supposed to deal with my mother’s estate (I’m the executor)? It doesn’t look like I’d be able to take time off, beyond the 15 days of vacation I’d get (if I haven’t used it up before her hypothetical death)? What do people do when this stuff happens? Do I just have to quit my job, I guess? If you’ve had to deal with this, how did it go? What did you do?

    I know that by worrying about it before it even happens, I’m borrowing trouble, but it’s something that keeps me up at night!!

    Any insight?

    1. PollyQ*

      First, your mom could live another 10-20 years or more (my grandma’s turning 99 this weekend!), so I hope when you say it’s keeping you up at night, that’s just hyperbole. Also, you don’t know where you or she will be living when the time comes. You may be quite near each other. Second, although my knowledge of settling estates is limited, my understanding is that almost none of it has to be done quickly. If your mom owns her home outright, you don’t have to sell it immediately, or go through her stuff right away. You do not have to quit your job! People manage to do this alongside working full time, and it just takes a while. Third, there’s a good chance that some of this work can & will be done while your mom is still alive, as she ages. She may sell her home to move some form of retirement living and have to downsize her belongings then. Fourth, you can hire someone to help you with all this. It doesn’t have to be you & you alone doing every single thing.

      I hope you can take a couple of deep breaths and stop worrying so much about it. Make sure your mom has all her various legal paperwork set up and stored in an organized accessible way, and that’s really all you need to concern yourself with right now.

      1. JustaTech*

        Seconding a lot of this.
        By the time my mom’s mom passed (at the age of 98), she had already sold her home (she moved to assisted living because she hated cooking and wasn’t going to do it anymore), had handed over her investments to my uncle to run, had my mom do all the rest of her banking. My grandmother had also given away or sold a lot of her things in that time, so by the end there wasn’t a lot of stuff to wrap up. The more stuff you can ask your mom to do herself, the easier it will be for you.

        When my husband’s grandmother died it was a bit more work because she still owned her home and there was some weirdness about that, but my mother-in-law had been doing all her banking for years, knew all the accounts and where everything was, so it was mostly the emotional work of dealing with the house and all its stuff. Even that turned out to not be so bad because someone bought the whole house as-is (minus a few sentimental pieces of art).

        For my coworker who’s dad died this year (and who’s affairs were not in any kind of order), she did most of it over the phone in little bits here and there, talking to the attorney, talking to the banks, talking to the real estate agent who sold the house, all of that.

        I think what we’re all trying to say is that you won’t have to do everything at once. Lots of it can’t be done right away, even if you wanted to. And there are professionals to work with all the way, virtually all of whom will be fine working with you over email and phone.

      2. PollyQ*

        Sorry, I meant to say “I HOPE that’s just hyperbole.” Didn’t mean for it to be judgmental!

    2. Blossom Fowler*

      If you can afford it, there are a lot of tasks that you can outsource in this situation. When my mother in law passed, we were able to sell her condo in another state without ever having to go there, because we had a good realtor and we sold it furnished. Depending on the size of the estate, there isn’t much paperwork involved and you can do it on your own time and from your home, although you might need an attorney to help.

      From my experience, the tougher situation is caretaking while the parent is alive, but not able to take care of him/herself. Again, if you can afford it, you can hire aides but this is more of an emotional issue.

      Best of luck to you as you handle a common but difficult situation.

    3. Ins mom*

      Take a deep breath. When it happens, it doesn’t all happen at once. There will be lawyer and bank appointments, but a lot of hurry- up- and-wait. Some can be done by email or mail and some by hiring help. Again, take a deep breath. If you have that new job for 10 or 15 years you would have the capital to take more time as needed

    4. LuckySophia*

      I was in that situation: only child, living/working 4 hrs from mom’s house. She passed unexpectedly, at a relatively young age. I spent 2 years commuting, every other weekend, dealing with the paperwork, selling her car privately, going through the contents of the house and deciding what to keep, what to give to others, what to donate, what to let go in a sale…and then selling the house. It was a lot. Physically tiring, and emotionally draining.

      My dad kept good files (which mom maintained after he passed) so it was easy to find the important papers: deed to the house, mom’s will, the insurance policies, car title & registration, etc. Smaller stuff – like cancelling newspaper and magazine subscriptions; finding out the name/phone number of the garbage-hauling company and arranging to pay them by check during the months I was weeding through stuff and throwing it out; finding out who shoveled the snow and connecting with them by phone as needed – all that smaller stuff just took some time and effort to track down. My lawyer coached me through the steps of setting up a checking account for “The Estate”, and I think I had to call the utility companies, the local property & school tax office, etc, and get the accounts put in the name of “Estate of Mom”. My lawyer also coached me through filing an “Estate” tax return and then, after finally selling the house, a “Final” return that legally closed the estate.

      Best advice I can give, if you have this kind of relationship with your mom, is to talk with her, openly and often…have her show you where all the important docs are, make sure you know the name of her attorney, her tax preparer, her financial adviser or brokerage rep, what banks she deals with, etc.

      Find out what her thoughts/intentions are about staying in her home “forever” vs. possibly at some point moving to a “senior community” or, if she should ever need assisted living, is there a particular facility she favors? (assuming there are multiple options in your neighborhood.).

      Try to create your own reference files of “what’s what, and what’s where” in advance — so that you would be able to deal with many things long-distance, by phone/email. Meet her attorney if you haven’t (with her along) and see if you feel they would be a good guide/ally/resource for you.

      RE: Job policies restricting time off…that’s a tough one, but if you take the new job and establish a good reputation and good relationship with your manager, it’s possible they would be understanding, and figure a way to “work around” or turn a blind eye to, the official policies.

      The other commenters are right…it can be done while working a full-time job, and you can take as much time as you need, going to stay in her house from time to time, when you can, to keep sorting things out. I took a long time to do that, partly because of the commute, and mostly because it took me that long to be emotionally ready to sell the home I grew up in. It’s important to give yourself the time you need to feel “ready”.

    5. Juneybug*

      1. I would strongly suggest reading Inheriting Clutter: How to Calm the Chaos Your Parents Leave Behind by Julie Hall. She will walk you through the process of what needs to happen now vs later, how to approach clean-up, who can help with tasks, etc.
      2. See if your mom will start downsizing now. My mom picked a closet and worked on it over the month (or less, depending on size). Or start small like a dresser. During my visits, I would help her make decisions on what to keep/get rid of (it’s nice to have a second opinion), shred or recycle unnecessary documents, take donations to thrift stores/Goodwill, etc. Moving to her a retirement community was a breeze. When she passes on, I know again, it will be easy to deal with her estate because she has already removed junk/unnecessary items, downsized, etc.
      3. Most of my friends who have lost their parent(s) took their bereavement leave to take care of the funeral and grieve. Then over the course of a few weeks (sometimes months), work on the estate in their off-time (weekends or evenings). It kept them busy but not insane.
      4. Hire someone to do it all for you and not worry about it.

    6. RagingADHD*

      I was the executor for my aunt’s estate while living 5 hours away in a different state. Honestly, the admin itself wasn’t a full-time job, or anything like it. It took over my brain to a great extent because of emotional baggage. But there aren’t super-tight deadlines on anything.

      It was a project, but one that could certainly be fit in around a fulltime job, and done in pieces.

      I got the lawyer local to her, who drew up her will, to handle the court filings for probate. I signed everything I needed to sign while I was in town for the funeral. Fortunately he was able to get me the Letters Testamentary within a couple of days, so I could roll her checking account over to an estate account. (If it had taken longer, I could have done the banking by phone or mail).

      I looked through the personal property at the house and my sibling and I, as sole beneficiaries, selected what we wanted and shipped off items that were special for other relatives. Then we asked a couple of her friends if they wanted anything. (That could have been done over several weekends).

      All in all, I was in town for about a week after she died. I could definitely have cut that shorter if I had to, or waited to do several shorter visits instead of one fell swoop.

      For the rest, I contracted with an estate-sale company before leaving town. They arranged the sale, had everything that didn’t sell picked up by Goodwill, threw out the trash, and left the place broom-clean. I don’t recall what their percentage turned out to be, but the estate received a much bigger check than I expected. And I didn’t have to be there at all, they just dropped the house key in the mail.

      Everything else, like closing accounts and paying off final bills, was done by email, phone, and snail mail or fedex.

      I got my own tax guy to handle the estate tax filing, since he was also qualified in the neighboring state.

      It will be fine.

    7. WellRed*

      Just because it’s not in the handbook doesn’t mean there aren’t other options at a company especially if it’s decent. My handbook says five days for immediate family but you can request more. Echoing others that this doesn’t need to happen at once but think it’s wise to start some talks with mom. Mine is also 75 and put my name on her bank account after Dad dies in case she becomes incapacitated or dies. One small thing aimed at easing the practicalities of a difficult time.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Only child here, my dad’s house was an hour and a half away.
      My father had a relatively small estate. And it took about 9 months to process. I sold the house about half way through that time. (I kept the house in the estate and did not take ownership of the house myself.)
      I chose to empty the house myself. I could have had an estate action. This tied up a bunch of my time- I used weekends to do this.
      I chose to let the law firm write his checks. I could have done that and save some bucks.

      For the most part everything else I needed to do I was able to squeeze in before or after work. The realtor was very understanding about my limited availability and the lawyer definitely tried to support me.

      I took a week for the funeral (bereavement plus emergency personal). And I took a day off for the closing. That was all the time I needed. I never appeared in probate court.
      What I needed the most time for was MH/grieving. And that went on longer than the estate stuff did.

      There’s a lot of things you can delegate out. You can even have a family member help relay news and answer questions from your extended family so you are tied up repeating everything. I told the florist to make something with soft pinks and yellows and whites. It took 5 minutes to order something, I decided I would love it no matter. I actually ended up loving the arraignment. Once you have decided what items you want to just donate you can probably call a resale type place and they might come with a truck. This can at least get the big stuff out of the way.

      There’s things that can be done ahead of time. I told my father to thin his herd. He gave special items to the people he wanted to have them. He got rid of some junk. He gathered important papers in one place. He did reduce his papers- but boy, he still had a ton of paper. The most important thing he did was he sold off his other houses. Eh, he could not support them anyway, his finances changed radically in the last decade.
      Ask your mom to help plan now so that things go smoother later.

    9. Girasol*

      I agree with not jumping the gun and expecting the worst. But I’m an only child who went through this just barely post-retirement and learned a lot about the process which I had also long feared. I can tell you that it wasn’t as hard as I thought. The nurse called the funeral director who contacted me the next day with a checklist of things to get done. That list sent me to find a probate lawyer online (our state required one). She gave me more info, and from there each person I contacted gave me advice or pointed me to others who could help me with one task or another. There was more help available than I expected, and a surprising lot of the work can be stretched out over months and months. So I spent a couple of fast paced weeks getting all the info sorted out, notifying places that needed to know, finding important papers, sorting all the things, forwarding mail, finding movers and estate sale companies and such. We might have just had everything moved to storage to handle later, but with a small house a ten hour drive from home, we decided to handle it on the spot. (If I’d been working I’d have taken two weeks PTO. You may not need that much but you might ask HR now if they could cut you some slack if you ever did.) After that initial short scramble the pace slowed way down. There was time to take a break, work through having seen a parent die, and call or write friends and relations. A few weeks later I got back to business. It was all phone calls and very official letters, so tasks were short and wait times between them long, pretty doable for someone with a job except for the occasional long stint on somebody’s hold music. I had to keep notes just to remember the status of each task. The dribble of tasks went on for much longer than I expected but it was all pretty manageable with a lot of patience. So I wish your mom many long and happy years, but in the meanwhile, don’t let the thought of this task rattle you. You can handle it.

    10. FD*

      A few things to think about.

      First of all, you can pay someone to do a lot of these tasks. The average life expectancy for women is about 82 years, so let’s just say that you’ll need $5,000 of your own (plus any funds out of the state that can help out). To put it in context, if you have seven years, and you’re able to save $60/month, you’ll have that $5k ready by that time.

      But that said, a huge part of this is being ready in advance. Have you talked to your mom? Does she have the proper end of life documents set up (will, health care directive, etc)? What are your and her plans if she does need assistance? Does she have a life insurance or long term care policy? What are her wishes for a funeral and burial/cremation/scattering at sea/etc? Is there any clergy person she would want called if she was near the end of her life?

      A lot of times, people don’t talk about these things because talking about death is scary and no one likes to think about losing a beloved parent or family member. But I’ve worked in a law office and so many times, grief is harder because people didn’t have these conversations in advance and aren’t ready for the logistical sides of it.

      You obviously are thinking of it, which is great! If you think about those practical sides, you can be better prepared for what would be needed if this actually happened.

    11. Pocket Mouse*

      My partner was executor of a relative’s estate, and I spent a large chunk of time heavily stressed about my own parents’ affairs when the time comes for me to deal with them. From that experience: enlist help, take it slow, be kind to yourself, throw a reasonable amount of money (especially the estate’s money) toward the necessities if it’ll make them easier, recognize that your time and energy are valuable and it’s likely not worth 20 hours of effort to increase the estate’s value by $200.

      Especially with friends/extended family/a partner supporting, you can get a lot done on lunch breaks, evenings, and weekends. Some things you will need to be in person for, though. You will likely need to take days off beyond those give for bereavement, though in my experience employers are pretty understanding about needing that time off, and/or taking some time during the work day to take care of things. If you’re worried your employer won’t be fully understanding, I’d try to either keep a handful of PTO days ready on demand, or a bucket of money to cover a handful of days if they need to be taken unpaid.

      What you can do now to make it easier on yourself later:
      1. Research ways to bypass probate as much as possible, and get her on board with this idea. Name beneficiaries or joint owners on every account, add Transfer on Death directives to her house and car (if available in your jurisdiction), set up a family trust.
      2. Get Nolo’s book/PDF Get It Together and have your mom go through it. If it initially seems overwhelming, start by crossing off the sections that simply don’t apply, and prioritize the remaining parts in bite-size chunks from there. I also recommend Nolo’s The Executor’s Guide- read through ahead of time and flag parts that may apply to your mom’s situation. You can even get a used or borrowed old version now as an intro, and an updated version when it’s needed.
      3. Have your mom make a list of contacts: any lawyers/advisors she has, medical providers, at least one local contact, and primary points of contact for her social circles. When the time comes, you can lean on some of these people to spread the word or perform smaller tasks for you so you can concentrate on more immediate things (like grief and urgent logistics).

      A PSA on things they don’t tell you: keep the person’s phone active for a few months in case they have two-factor authentication set up on anything you need to access.

      Another PSA: take the executor’s fee, and don’t feel guilty about it. It’s work that you’d want someone else to be paid for if they were doing it, so extend the same reasoning to your own labors.

      Good luck, when the time comes— I hope it is indeed a long way off!

  99. SophieChotek*

    How can I get experience in Grant Writing/Development/Philanthropic Donor/Prospect Research?
    I would love to get a job in this specific niche.

    I have experience in business and writing and research (more historical/cultural research)
    So many jobs I see in this niche want 3-5+ years experience with grant writing, development, donor relations, etc.
    For example: “Two to four years experience working in the philanthropic development eld with one to two years’ experience in prospect research and major gift analysis. Raisers Edge experience required” Is it hopeless without a degree?

    I have tried some volunteering but seriously have been given tasks like stuffing envelopes, guarding doors/pointing the way to the bathroom, answering phones, concession stands, etc. And it seems disingenious? dishonest? unfair? to only go after volunteer activities where I could get experience with this (even if I could as a volunteer)?’Or maybe I’m just not picking the right organizations?

    Any suggestions on how I could get that experience? Since (at least right now) it seems impossible for me to find the entry-level-no-experience-required job in this field so I could get the 2-3+ years experience at work….

    Thank you. I am sorry I have been very bad about commenting/reading here lately.

    1. Harriet Vane*

      I’m in this field. I jumped in from another field with a similarly applicable background. You have enough experience for these jobs.

      Apply with a cover letter that shows you a) understand what these jobs are and b) how your experience has made you qualified for these jobs. Sometimes people need it spelled out for them, especially people who only think people with fundraising experience can write or do research. If you don’t have a handle on what exactly these jobs are, you can possibly read up about them or if you can get a virtual coffee with anyone you might know, even better.

      Really, if you can sell yourself in a cover letter, you can do development work.

      Good luck! You can do this.

      1. SophieChotek*

        Thank you! You have encouraged me to try again. And of course, I love the name, as HV is my fav and DLS is one my top 10 list of fav authors

    2. MissBliss*

      I am also in this field and agree with Harriet. Focus on your cover letter to explain how your background makes you qualified for this position. So many people come to fundraising as a second career and they don’t all start at the bottom. Good luck!

      1. SophieChotek*

        Thank you for the encouragement. I will try to keep working on make a better case in my cover letter.

  100. a tired lil' bean*

    Does anyone have recommendations to deal with pandemic burn out that’s *just* starting to set in?

    I work for an organization that emphasized self-care at the beginning of the pandemic, but my particular team has been pushing non-stop since March 2020 with dramatically increased workloads and stress. (We are also one of the only teams that has been working in-person since the beginning of the pandemic.) The stress and heaviness of the last year is finally starting to hit me — but at this point, my org is making the assumption that everyone has adjusted to the pandemic and/or has the supports they need. I feel silly raising this issue because I have been performing at a high level for the last thirteen months, but I’m reaching a point of deep exhaustion and burn out.

    Advice for how I can manage this on my end? And any advice for raising this issue with my supervisor?

    1. 2Teas*

      I finally used my company EAP for counseling. I have worked on site since April 2020 after a 3 week shelter in place. We have been working on returning to normal operations over the last two months. The changes have been so numerous and so often, it feels like we are inventing the wheel while driving. Honestly we are all burnt out and touchy.

    2. JustaTech*

      “Boss, can we talk about the workload? I know we’ve been doing really well with our increased workload, but none of us expected this to last so long and our reserves are low. We are going to need to start asking for more support, specifically X, Y and Z.”

      You’ve been working in short-term emergency mode for a year and you need to switch gears to long-term mode, and to do that you need some more support. It’s not that you were wrong for not asking earlier, because back then you didn’t know you would need it. Things change. You probably also have a better understanding now of what specific help you need, that you might not have know last July.

    3. FD*

      Dunno but I don’t think you’re alone. I’m right there with you and I think there’s a lot of people who have been working and holding up well but are starting to hit a wall right about now.

  101. BabeRoe*

    I have been working for something to supplement my pay with a at home data entry type job but everything seems so scammy to me. Anyone have any recommendations?

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      You can try these sites, which have been recommended on AAM by past commenters:
      – FlexJobs.com – it’s a subscription site but the jobs are legit.
      – Rev.com (mentioned here often; you’ll need to scroll all the way to the bottom of the site to click on the “Careers” link which will take you to another link that will show openings)
      – Annika’s Work From Home (list sites and have a blacklist of scams) – http://www.annikaswfh.com/
      – Dream Home Based Work (lists work-from-home jobs) – https://www.dreamhomebasedwork.com/
      – Jobspresso (programming/design/program managering/marketing) – https://jobspresso.co/ – Bills itself as “Expertly curated remote jobs in tech, marketing, customer support and more”
      – We Work Remotely – https://weworkremotely.com/#job-listings
      – Working Nomads – http://www.workingnomads.com
      – National Capital Contracting (NCC) – https://www.nccsite.com/remote-transcription-opportunities – Offers transcription services.
      READER COMMENT on NCC : “They are very well-established, lots of federal government work as well as private clients. Strict rules but clear, fair, and pleasant to work with. The big downsides for me were that most of their short assignments are on an overnight turnaround … You can give them your availability by the week.”

    2. Decidedly Me*

      Those are mostly scammy, as you’ve seen. Your best best is a freelance site like Upwork, but the pay for data entry work is going to be quite low, as you’re competing with people from areas with a very low cost of living.

  102. hipaaviolation?*

    My employer just sent an email saying that our healthcare provider is asking for a census of vaccinated workers. Can they even ask for this information? I gave my insurance info when vaccinated, so our healthcare provider already knows.

    1. Maggie*

      Sure they can ask you. Wouldn’t be a HIPAA violation unless they contacted your medical providers and your medical providers then revealed your medical information without your consent.

    2. TWW*

      I’m pretty sure you don’t have to tell them if you don’t want to. Long before COVID, my employers would ask me about vaccinations when sending me on overseas trips, so I don’t there’s a law against asking.

      My HMO does not know I was vaccinated. I got vaccinated at a county-run site which scanned my HMO card, but apparently did not transmit that info to my HMO.

    3. RagingADHD*

      HIPAA governs how your doctor/provider and your insurance company protect your records. It has nothing to do with what your employer can or can’t ask.

      As a matter of fact, anyone is allowed to ask you any question under the sun about your health. HIPAA has nothing to do with it.

      1. PollyQ*

        There are some ADA restrictions about asking employees or applicants for medical info, although I doubt this would be an issue for this particular case.

  103. So many interns*

    I’m hiring interns right now for a nonprofit. We have many more applicants than we can hire.

    For those we reject, would it seem weird to let them know about an education opportunity in our field? I found out from a partner organization they still have spots open for a a full-scholarship summer program training people for our field and folks can earn graduate credits. There is only a small (less than $100) registration fee and I can vouch for the program. But people came to me for an internship, not education advice.

    1. MissBliss*

      I don’t think it would be weird! They may or may not be interested but it’s worth sharing.

    2. Newbie*

      As someone who has applied and been rejected from a fair number of internships recently, I’d really appreciate hearing about this other opportunity as long as you acknowledge upfront that it is does require a fee.

  104. TexasGirl*

    Does anyone know why some internal roles require an interview process and some don’t and are considered promotions or transfers instead?

    1. ecnaseener*

      This definitely varies by organization — some will always require internal interviews etc — but I’m guessing it’s about how much of a change it is from your current job (aka whether you’ve already demonstrated some of the core competencies) plus whether there are a limited number of spots.

      For example, at Teapot Company a Teapot Painter getting promoted to Teapot Coordinator is a common career path for Painters to take. There are new responsibilities in the Coordinator role, but you’re not learning a whole new area. And the department doesn’t have a fixed number of Painters and Coordinators, it’s just staffed with as many people as it needs to be staffed at and each individual is promoted when they’re ready.

      But there’s a fixed number of Teapot Managers, so when one of those spots open up you interview to fill it. And someone in a totally unrelated department might be asked to interview for a Teapot Painter role because it’s such a big move.

  105. Purple Penguin*

    Advanced degree holders/PhDs, what do you do when a job application asks for transcripts, especially when your last grade granting degree was years ago?

    I’ve seen this request quite a few times for non entry level jobs and I’m at a loss for how to proceed. I don’t want to not comply with the application rules, but it seems unimportant what my undergrad grades were. I completed my masters in 2014 and my undergrad in 2007, should I upload those transcripts along with a note that (many) doctorates don’t have grades.

    1. Reba*

      I feel like it’s more proof of the claimed degree than grades, as such? Although of course, they can see your grades, it’s not not about grades… ugh. Do you have some proof of attendance (diploma?) so you have *something* to upload for the PhD?

    2. Opinions, I've Had a Few*

      Honestly you can usually get free trasncripts online and put those in with an acknowledgement that you can get official if they need it, but I don’t pay for them unless I have to and most jobs accept the unofficial transcripts.

    3. Filosofickle*

      TBH the last time I saw that, I took a pass on applying. If I’d had to provide them later I might have gone ahead but the listing said you must provide transcripts to apply and that just seemed…too much. My graduate degree was 10 years ago, undergrad 25! It felt so out of step for a senior position it felt like a red flag about their hiring priorities. Like maybe they are hung up on GPAs or are actually targeting much younger applicants.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      The only time I’ve had to do it was this year for a federal job application. They required transcripts but the wording suggests undergrad only. There’s no wording to require transcripts for any higher degrees, despite that being a clear expectation for the position. I did end up getting transcripts from both undergrad (almost 25 yrs ago) and grad school (16 years ago), and they show all grades as well as what dates the degrees were awarded, but I also think it’s just to confirm the degrees, not about the GPA. You could put your GPA in the education section but it was an optional field.

      FWIW I did once work at a company that wouldn’t even consider people with less than a certain GPA, even for MA/MS and PhD holders. I found that weird at the time but it was 20 years ago and I haven’t seen that kind of requirement anywhere else.

      1. nym*

        From the federal hiring side, at least at my agency – we don’t care about your grades; we want proof that the degree was granted, when, and by whom. Depending on the educational requirements for the position we are hiring, we may or may not care about what classes you took. A transcript will provide all of this, and it’s easier to ask for a transcript from everyone than it is to ask for a diploma for some positions and a transcript for others.

    5. Double A*

      If you have copies of your transcripts, then just upload them, no note needed. If you don’t have copies, contact your college registrar. They can probably send you an unofficial transcript electronically, or an official transcript wherever you need. There’s usually a small fee for this.

      I’m in a field where I still need to provide transcripts sometimes, even though I got my BA in 2005 and MA in 2011. Just a thing some fields want.

  106. Lizzie*

    I’ve just received a status update email from a job I applied to a month or so ago. It basically said ‘thank you for applying, sorry it’s taking so long to respond. We’re still combing through resumes and should get back to you soon once we’re ready to move onto the next step in the process.’ Should I reply to this email (it would be a reply to the hiring manager)? If so, what should I say? Something like ‘thank you for the update, I look forward to hearing from you’?

    1. Fran Fine (formerly Diahann Carroll)*

      I wouldn’t respond – it could be a mass email they sent out to everyone, thus aren’t expecting a response to begin with.

    2. Marinette*

      Agreed with others that you don’t need to respond, and that there’s no real benefit to responding anyway. There are a few cases that a response would be useful, but generally only if there’s an update from your end. “I’ve accepted another job, please remove me from consideration”, or “Since I first applied I’ve (graduated, been promoted, left Company X) and would like to take this opportunity to attach an updated copy of my resume”. If there’s nothing new you have to tell them, there’s no need to tell them anything.

  107. MissBliss*

    A few months ago when I was job searching, my former executive director asked me to give feedback on their open positions because they weren’t getting bites. I told her that as a job seeker, seeing a salary range is really important to me. This is something they had resisted for a long time. Well I just saw on LinkedIn that they’re advertising for 3 positions and two of them have ranges posted! The third is grant funded so that might have something to do with the opacity. I also told them that being more specific about benefits is really attractive, and they’ve updated their benefit language to share some details. I feel good about this!

  108. DoctorateStrange*

    I’m trying to give this new job a year and I know that the year is going to go by fast, but I’ve been feeling so depressed being away from my original community. The job is good, but it’s not where I want to be the next couple of years. I don’t want to settle where I live right now. I’m a librarian and this is my first librarian job and I am trying so hard, but I am so scared of job hunting too.

    I am scared of the exhaustion and disappointment my first job hunting went. I’m trying to remind myself that I will be getting my MLS in less than two weeks and I just need to keep it together.

  109. No Cat=Panik!*

    I lost my job last summer due to the pandemic and after stress and a job hunt, I finally got an offer today. But instead of being excited, i’m feel panicky and am crying. After all the past year and all the decisions I’ve had to make, I don’t want to have to make another. I don’t want to move to another state and leave my family and few friends behind. It’s not the job or the new community that bother me, other than a few drawbacks to the position it’s one I would take if it were in my current location. I was bad at making and keeping friends in my younger days, but in my late 20s finally figured out how to balance my solitary nature and be a good friend, and now have a few loved friends in the area along with family. I don’t want to leave now! I think I’m just feeling overwhelmed and nervous about change, and maybe having PMS (only relevant because one day a month I’m prone to extra depression and anxiety, and unfortunately that day is today). They want an answer by early next week. I wish I had a week or so to let it sink in. When accepting a job, how do I address realistic concerns over losing my support network as a single introvert, vs the emotional panic that is my first reaction?

    1. Alex*

      Leaving your friends and family is a big deal! It’s normal to feel stressed about that kind of thing. I don’t know the answer to what you should do, but definitely take a day to just feel all your feelings and not make a decision right on the first day.

      After that, maybe map out a plan to keep in touch in your loved ones, what kinds of things you might do to build yourself a new network in your new location, etc. Maybe look up some resources for activities you enjoy in the new city so you have some concrete ideas about what that life would look like rather than it feeling like a black whole of mysterious, friendless doom. It might start to feel more doable when you have more of an idea of what is available to you.

      Also, if you have the means to pass up the job and still have someplace to live and food to eat, “I didn’t want to move away from my family and friends” is a perfectly valid reason to not take an otherwise good job.

      Good luck, and congrats on the job offer!

  110. Might be Spam*

    My friend interviewed for a job and gave them his salary range when they asked. They continued the interview but wouldn’t give him the actual salary range when he asked. A few weeks later they told him he didn’t get the job because they decided to go in a different direction. Then they asked him if he would consider doing freelance work. Was this even a real job he interviewed for, or was it a veiled attempt to find part time freelancers?

    1. WellRed*

      There are easier ways to find freelancers. Maybe they changed their mind about filling the role at this time, or lost their budget or he wasn’t the best fit but they liked him and thought he could contribute in a limited role.

  111. Director of Alpaca Exams*

    How do internal transfers work? I’ve never been at a company big enough to have different divisions, never mind whole different companies. How do I sound someone out about an internal transfer without my boss finding out—or is that an issue the way it would be with job-hunting? Most of why I want to transfer is because I don’t do well with my boss’s management style, so it would be a little awkward to go to her and directly say that I want to move into other areas. I’m also not even sure there are openings in the department I want to move into, or whether an opening could be made to happen, or… anything! How does this process usually go?

    1. Annony*

      In my experience, you generally need your boss on board for an internal transfer. When I transferred, my boss had to sign off on it for it to go through. My new boss talked to her about me before interviewing me. In my case it didn’t matter because my old boss was the one who suggested I apply. Can you lie about why you want to transfer and make it about the work rather than management style?

      1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

        Haha, I could try! I am interested in the work but it would be a big professional leap for me. I guess I’ll start by getting to know the people in that department a little better and go from there. I miss the days of being able to take people out for drinks…

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I’ve transferred internally twice, but I do work at a very large company with many divisions so it’s fairly common. There are several different options. One is to apply to open requisitions in another division. I’ve seen people do this and generally it’s handled like a new hire – you apply, interview, and if selected and you accept, your current manager would not have to approve or be part of the process. The jobs are posted internally and externally so they’re easy to find. I’ve seen a few that are posted internally (emailed around) prior to be open to the public, but those are relatively rare.

      Once I transferred between divisions through a “no-requisition” transfer, as in there wasn’t officially an open position but they created one for me. My previous group was being dissolved and I was working on a project primarily owned by another group, so it was just moving me to the other group. This was managed through an agreement by my current manager and the manager I would be transferring to. While I had a conversation with the new manager, it wasn’t an interview, just an introduction. I didn’t really know at the time but the no-req transfer is also something that happens within the company so there were established procedures for it. Since they are not advertised, this is mainly accomplished by establishing a strong internal network and asking around if X or Y project needs more support or whether any opportunities might be coming up.

      And the most recent transfer was from one manager to another within the same division. It’s common to be reorganized and assigned to a new manager. I believe it’s less common to request to be moved from one manager to another. I had just been assigned to a new manager and recognized immediately that it was not going to be a good fit for me, so I had conversations with my out-going manager (to get her advice), my second-level manager (based on out-going manager’s advice and with whom I had a good relationship), and my desired manager (also had a good relationship). I was able to frame it as making a better alignment for my projects under desired manager’s portfolio and not about newly assigned manager’s style. No lie, if that hadn’t worked I would have strongly considered leaving.

      After there was unofficial approval to move me, we had a joint meeting with my newly assigned manager to present the situation. I don’t know if he saw the writing on the wall or what, but he suggested moving me before it was even broached. So it actually went quite smoothly, although it probably took two months before it was finalized. For that kind of move, I’d say it’s important to first know you have a place to land, then present your request to move somewhere else for career reasons (even if that’s just the cover story). But, if you have career-development type conversations with your manager, you could probably bring up an emerging interest in work that some other groups do and ask about possible paths to expand your skills elsewhere in the company.

  112. The Crows Have Eyes*

    My friend, whom we shall call Alexis, was laid off at the start of the pandemic. She is the mother of two young children and has recently become politically active advocating for universally accessible, paid, high quality childcare. This started as an interview in the local paper, followed by additional interviews at increasingly larger publications. Then Alexis did a round table with our Senator. She was just asked by that same Senator to be their guest at the President’s upcoming address.

    These are all awesome things and I am so happy for and proud of Alexis! My question is this: is there a way to translate any of this into a resume? Suggestions for specific language would be most appreciated!

  113. Commenter w/No Name*

    My coworker (“Mark”) had become ill. Fortunately it is curable but nonetheless the recovery period is a significant length of time. It affects him differently from day to day, depending on how much he did the day before. Overall, though, as time goes on, the illness’ effects should lessen and lessen. He is currently a few months out since diagnosis.

    The first issue: Mark initially took time off when diagnosed. Upon returning, he was given light work projects as per a doctor’s note. Mark openly admitted his doctor’s note was for x time. When the expiration date arrived, we saw Mark return to normal work, but then immediately took some days off again. Upon his return, he was back to the lighter projects again. He had gotten another doctor’s note for an extra week. Again, that expired, and Mark is still working lighter projects. Mark admitted his manager checked in with him now and then, and, based on his answers, would lighten his workload or let him choose his projects in advance – all without a doctor’s note. Normally, if you’re injured or ill and require less workloads, you need a doctor’s note, and your accommodations are only good for the time period specified by the doctor. No one is allowed to choose which projects they want to be on as we are expected to be able to do it all. Mark has been given the lightest projects for months now; the rest of us have to wait for a day he takes off to get a reprieve with a lighter project. My question here is – Can Mark’s manager really give him this preferential treatment without a doctor’s note (Mark’s admission)? Mark has said the recovery for his illness is about a year; research typically says ½ year.

    The second issue: Mark also admits to drinking when he shouldn’t be with this illness. The drinking exacerbates the illness’s side effects and therefore, Mark continues to feel unwell. Some coworkers are starting to doubt Mark’s illness entirely. Mark frequently alludes to leaving, but of course, he will not leave until he has another offer in hand.

    I guess I write this more in a “what would you do if you worked with Mark?” And it’s a more of a curiosity about whether or not the manager is playing by the rules in allowing Mark to have the run of the schedules for what suits him when everyone else gets what is thrown at them.

    1. Director of Alpaca Exams*

      Mark’s specific health concerns are his business. If you’re researching typical recovery times (which are of course typical, meaning that there’s considerable variation) for his particular type of illness, and caring about whether and how much he drinks not because he’s working while intoxicated but in reference to his illness, you are already way beyond what the professional boundaries between you and Mark should be. Take several steps back.

      As for workload allocation, it sounds like your workplace rules mandate equal allocation (everyone gets the same amount) but in practice is doing equitable allocation (everyone gets what they’re able to handle). In addition, your workplace mandates that workload changes require medical documentation but in practice is permitting Mark to self-report his symptoms (which makes perfect sense given the nature of his illness). Those are two specific concerns you can raise with your manager. Assuming you would like all employees to receive the more generous treatment that Mark is receiving, ask when the policy will be formally updated to reflect that self-reported symptoms are sufficient for receiving time off or a lighter workload while ill. Also ask whether there are any plans to staff up or otherwise address the issue that you and your colleagues have a heavier workload than you signed up for. Mark being given reasonable accommodations for his temporary disability shouldn’t result in other staffers being overloaded, and it’s up to your management to sort that out.

      Mark’s serious illness, for which recovery is highly variable and depends considerably on him not being overtaxed while he’s ill, has demonstrated the inadequacies of the existing policy. I’m glad to hear your company has responded to that by taking a compassionate route that will help him stay on and recover fully, rather than doubling down and burning him out or making him more seriously ill. Now they need to put that in writing so it benefits everyone, and adjust workloads and staffing as needed to allow for improved accommodation of anyone who needs it.

      But seriously, pretend you know nothing about Mark’s illness—because no matter how much you know, there’s a lot more that you don’t, and because it’s none of your business. Right now your envy is turning you into a nosy busybody who’s simmering with resentment. That’s not a good look, and it’s not much fun for you either. Redirect that energy into making sure that your own workload is within what you can handle and that workplace policies are being applied to everyone equally. That will do you and all your colleagues far more good in the long run.

      1. Commenter w/No Name*

        The busybody is Mark for it is he who is making his business everybody else’s. He slips any illness talk into conversations without being prompted. He knows he is getting accommodations others need (and are not) getting for their medical issues, with or without doctor notes; those people hear him and are at a loss of what to do (is Mark telling the truth about getting accommodations without a doctor’s note?). He also tells his illness stories with varying details, such as how he contracted the illness; sometimes he forgets the story a person originally got and so they get the other details instead.

        Look, I really don’t care about Mark’s illness. When he first came back, I asked him how he was doing? Others did too. But he has divulged the aforementioned details, and like I mentioned, they vary noticeably. I continue to do my work at my usual level. But perhaps I need a script that will shut him down in his talk about his current medical condition. I have thought processes around the aforementioned things he’s brought up on his own, but I won’t share them here because, well, you’ll just say I’m an nosy, envious busybody again. Just note that Mark, albeit dealing with this medical issue, is not 100% innocent. I will acknowledge that I am only responsible for my reactions to it so how can I shut it down so I don’t become anymore of a party to it?

        1. WellRed*

          Mark may be a pain in the ass, a malingerer or a liar. The issue is how the workplace is or isn’t handling this. If coworkers aren’t getting accommodations, that’s not Marks fault. If the workload is unsustainable, say something. Finally, if there’s any way to limit your interaction with Mark(I would find all his illness talk tiresome) that might help you.

    2. FD*

      It sounds like you’re really most frustrated because you and your coworkers are being asked to take on a heavier workload for an undisclosed amount of time. In some ways, it doesn’t matter whether Mark is full of crap about the illness, or is making himself sick, or any number of things. If Mark had a serious form of cancer and was in treatment that might last for years, you’d be in the same boat.

      It may be more productive to push back as a group and say something like “Hey, it sounds like Mark may need these accommodations for a longer period of time. It’s difficult for the rest of the team to completely absorb this because [x, y, and z]. How can we re-distribute this to make this practical, given that this may be a while.” Maybe that’s that Mark gets to work on lighter projects but has to help with some of the administrative stuff from yours. Maybe that’s that they need to get some extra temporary help.

      I’d say the tone should be more “Hey, we aren’t able to sustain this, so how can we make this work for everyone” rather than focusing on the doctor’s note issue.

  114. Tired Tech*

    Just wanted to thank everyone who commented last week on my sanity check for how much time could be reasonably asked for job candidates to spend on interview materials. (I had spent about 18 hours on material prep for an internal role.)

    I got the news today that I didn’t get the role. I’m choosing to frame this as a blessing because it is forcing me to leave this employer (“we’ll be expanding the department in two years” was what was said to me… I get that they’re thinking long-term but seriously, I’m on public assistance right now and this was the first FT role in the department in seven years, how was that helpful to say.)

    Starting the hunt in earnest tomorrow.

    I’m devastated and exhausted. My mojo is completely gone. I am in a leadership role that I don’t want to screw up, however, so I want to regain some energy and have some important (related) meetings next week.

    Does anyone have tips for bouncing back from something like this?

    Also, the person who rejected me is someone I consider a bit of a mentor, so even though i’m trying not to take this personally I am just. Hurt. Any tips for how to stay professional and happy would be really really appreciated right now. Thank you so much.

    1. Pocket Mouse*

      I’m sorry, that really sucks. Of course it hurts, especially after all that effort you put in and how existing relationships were at play.

      If it helps, this seems like an ‘adjust your expectation/goals’ situation to me. Downgrade your goal from professional and happy to professional and continuing to do good work. Save some energy for applying to other jobs, and let your escape from the current company be your bounce back.

      In the meantime, recognize that your mentor didn’t reject you as a person, they still want you to succeed, and now that they know you’re interested in growth in the near future they may be able to assist in new ways. If you have idea for how they can assist you (Where do they see you excelling, and what areas of growth do they see for you? Can they introduce you to people in their network, or can they serve as a reference?) let them know. Good luck in your next steps!

  115. Family anon*

    Any advice on how (and whether…) to job hunt during a big sad family medical crisis where the timeline is unknown? I had been planning to start the search and then got the news. My job is stable and pays well but I’m not stimulated or growing and I have an extremely difficult coworker who makes my job harder. I’m unhappy but worried about making a change when a need for FMLA could come up at any time.

    1. Camelid coordinator*

      I haven’t been in this situation, but my inclination would be to look around for new opportunities but only apply to the ones that would be amazing for both parties, you and the employer. My sense from the advice here is that employers excited to have you on board would be more likely to work with you even if FMLA hasn’t kicked in yet. Another choice might be to get a new job immediately and hope the need for FMLA happens a bit down the road once you are eligible.

    2. Juneybug*

      In Washington state, employees must have worked 1,250 hours in the past year at the same company to qualify. So start the new job, get those hours in, and then you will be eligible for FMLA.
      In my situation, I found out that I had breast cancer within the 30 days of starting my new job/career after grad school. There is no amount of planning for that scenario! But working at a state job and having a good boss, I was able to take all of the time I needed (unpaid) and with no FMLA without any repercussions to my job. It did delay my probation period but my boss assured me that was a problem.
      I hope a year from now, your family medical situation works out fine and you have a brand new job where you are thriving. Good luck!!

      1. Family Anon*

        Thanks Juneybug and Camelid!! This is sadly a “let’s hope the medical situation is still going in a year because it means my family member is still here” situation, but I know they are also very keen to see me happier, so it’s definitely something I want to work out. I can’t imagine going through what you did! Hope you are doing ok now.

  116. genderrollercoaster*

    Does anyone have advice for navigating an unofficial (non-legal) name change? I would like to go by a different first name, and I got excited when I realized that I’m applying to new jobs right now and could use the name on my resume, email address, etc and enter a new workplace with people only knowing me that way. But then I realized that my references know me primarily by a different name (also not my legal name) as well as my legal name and didn’t know how to handle that, so I reverted to using my legal name on everything. Any suggestions on how to navigate that, preferably without revealing this change to my references?

    1. Your Local Cdn*

      I would just include other names used on documents, and then maybe a brief reminder at the reference stage, i.e. “When I worked there I went by Legal Name, so that is how my references know me.”

      1. genderrollercoaster*

        Thanks! So on my resume, etc use only my preferred name? As an example, the job I applied for yesterday asked for references to be included in an introductory email, so I could have just made a note that they would know me as “legal name”?

        1. Solar Moose*

          Yep, the name you want to use should go on your resume/email/LinkedIn/etc. Leaving a note on your application and tell the recruiter that you’ve also gone by names X and Y. Just to be safe, give your references a heads up too.

  117. Work Food*

    Now that I no longer have access to a fridge, I need suggestions for healthier snacks that don’t cost an arm and a leg and are truly filling. I’ve done almonds and Rx bars in the past, and burned myself out.

    1. WellRed*

      Can you use a small cooler or lunch bag with an ice pack? As to healthy snacks, I like raw veggies with a good dip. Cheese and crackers, not crazy about fruit but it’s a standard. Hard boiled or deviled eggs. Other nuts. Hummus and pretzels. Peanut butter.

        1. AlabamaAnonymous*

          Lots of cheeses (especially hard ones like cheddar or colby or more processed ones like baby bel or laughing cow) can be left unrefrigerated for a couple of hours. The same is true for carrots and many fruits. Beef jerky or slim jims have lots of protein. Dried edamame or chick peas are nice if you can find them. My grocery store sells little foil packets of tuna with seasoning. They are near the canned tuna and are shelf-stable. Paired with crackers, they make a nice snack (although they might be a bit smelly!) My grocery store also sells little packages of microwavable lentils (near the rice mixes). I keep those in my desk door as an emergency lunch. I don’t know if you are interested at all in making your own snacks but there are lots of “energy bites” recipes out there–usually a mix of nuts, dried fruit, and something to bind them together; most of those don’t require refrigeration. Good luck in your search!

  118. jj*

    I work at a high school and am going back to work in person on Wednesday. I am dreading it. My role is not primary teacher, I provide push in and pull out intervention. I don’t have a school lap top yet, even though half my students are staying online. I don’t have my own dedicated pull out space. I’ll have to sit in a student desk when I push in and possibly be offered a plastic shield but maybe not because I didn’t yet drive the full hour rt to claim one early and apparently they may not have enough. I don’t have any supervisor beyond the principal and they have no idea what my job is or what distinguishes it from a paraprofessional. I’m not trying to be elitest but I have a master’s degree in teaching my subject area and that’s part of why they hired me to do this role. But then also acted surprised when I needed resources to do my job that a para may not need (like prep time and a pull out space). They are trying to help me once I explained but it’s all so demoralizing.

    The only reason we are going back is because our Republican governor wants to do spring standardized testing. They are giving different reasons but the understanding is that is the real reason. It’s all such a shit show and I’m depressed and overwhelmed.

    Also: state contact tracing rules are they only have to tell you if someone within 6 feet of your assigned location tests positive. So if a student isn’t literally assigned next to me, I’ll never get told there was a positive case in my room.

    1. Juneybug*

      site:askamanager.org “open thread” “juneybug”
      It’s hard when you are not recognized as the expert you are. It’s tougher when you are ignored or forgotten as a key member of the school. So I have a few suggestions that might help –
      1. Could you “create” your job? Make a list of what services you provide and focus on getting the word out to parents/guardians/staff/students?
      2. Write up a list of what office and computer equipment you need for your job – private office, desk, chair, laptop, plastic shield, telephone, etc. Then go to whomever provides those items (Facilities, IT, supply, etc.) and get on the schedule for delivery. If you have to drive to pick up these items, do it on company time and claim mileage.
      4. Get business cards. I am not sure if your school will pay for those or not. If not, I would suggest you buy them yourself. Hand them out to everyone. Make sure your title is on them.
      5. Attend staff and leadership meetings so your presence is known.
      6. If there are newsletters, emails, etc., that go out to parents/guardians, ensure your contact info is included. Maybe write up an annual article on how your role benefits the students and staff.
      7. Verify you are listed in the school directory.
      8. Write up your bio and have it placed on the school’s website.
      9. If there are others in the same role as you but at a different school in your district, start a professional association group. Meet often to discuss policies, keep in the know, etc. Again, do this on company time.
      10. When a staff member sends a parent or student your way, thank the staff member.
      I worked at elementary and middle schools and your situation isn’t unusual. We had a Native Family Resources staff member and no one knew she existed (she didn’t do steps 1 – 9). If her job had not been federally funded, she would have been eliminated immediately. She didn’t advocate for herself and was ignored by all, which was a shame. I tried to get the word out but I was only one person. Whenever a student visit her (from my recommendation), she would thank me. However, her office was hidden behind the janitorial staff closet so I would have to stop what I was doing to walk the student there (otherwise they would not found her office).
      Good luck! Go show them how awesome you are!!

    2. Flower necklace*

      I’m a high school teacher that co-teaches, so I feel your pain. I do have a school laptop, but it’s terrible. Every teacher I know wishes they would let us use our own laptop because the school laptops are slow and occasionally freeze up, although one of the benefits of co-teaching is that at least I don’t lose the entire class if I get kicked out of Zoom.

      None of the teachers in my department have our own classrooms, so we all teach from our co-teacher’s classroom when we don’t have a self-contained class. The alternative was having us all try to teach from the department room, which was obviously unworkable. There’s an echo from hearing the other teacher in person and on Zoom at the same time, but I’ve actually gotten used to it.

      I agree with everything above about advocating for yourself and making your position known. Since you’re a department of one, you’re the head of your department. They should be including you in all of the leadership meetings and working with you to make sure you have what you need.

  119. Open to new possibilities*

    How do I manage a job search without my employer finding out I am considering leaving? I have been at my current job a few months past 4 years and am ready to move on to something new. I have applied to 3 openings over the last 5 months, so it’s not like I am leaving just to leave, I’m only applying to something I am pretty sure I would accept if an offer was made. I haven’t been all that worried about my current employer finding out about my job search until my most recent application. I was required to list 3 references on the application and did not have the option to ask them not to contact my current employer. I want to be the one to tell my manager I am leaving when the time comes, but I don’t want to have to bring it up prematurely because I’m scared a potential new employer will call without discussing it with me first. For context, last year we found out someone else in my department was leaving because his new employer called to verify his employment before he had the chance to tell us himself that he had accepted another job and I’m just worried something similar could happen to me.

  120. Martin Keyser*

    Just read your article about interviewers asking about past salaries and I agree 100%. I believe there should be a law against asking such a question. Here’s how I answered the question question when asked either in an application or in person:
    Sir,
    As you can see from my resume, no past job has been similar to any other job. For that reason, comparing salaries would be misleading. All salaries have been commensurate to their position.
    I’m sure you know what your job is worth.
    I welcome your strongest offer.

Comments are closed.