open thread – May 21-22, 2021

by Alison Green on May 21, 2021

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. networking etiquette?*

    Q for the group: I had a networking call with an alum who’s several steps ahead of me in our very competitive industry. I applied for a job at her company, though in a completely separate division/branch. She, somewhat offhandedly near the end of our call, gave me the name and email of the person she believes is the hiring manager. She said I seemed like a great fit and had an impressive resume.

    What’s the protocol here? I applied through their web portal, and I’m worried it will seem out of bounds/pushy to reach out to the maybe-hiring manager. I don’t want it to seem like I’m trying to subvert the system but at the same time, applying to a portal truly feels like a black hole and I’m wondering if I’m wasting an opportunity.

    I’m also planning on sending a thank you note to the alum today/Monday for talking with me. Is there something I can include there? What do y’all think? I thought about asking Alison but I have to make a call on this now.

    1. JillianNicola*

      If she specifically gave you the email and name of the hiring manager that seems to me to be a clear cue that it’s okay to contact them. Just send a quick email to say, I’ve submitted my app through the portal, Jane gave me your information, would love this opportunity, etc.

    2. Ooh La La*

      Best scenario would be for her to email the hiring manager and make the introduction directly. Since she didn’t offer to do that, you can email the HM and say something like, “Jane Alum (Title/Department) recommended that I reach out to you” and mention that you’ve formally applied through the web portal. I usually attach my resume to that email, too, for the HM’s convenience.

      1. RagingADHD*

        This would be my approach as well. She didn’t give you the person’s info as a random topic of conversation. The intention was to make a connection.

        I understand her not wanting to make the referral directly, because that can sound like she’s personally vouching for your work (which of course she can’t do because she hasn’t worked with you).

        She’s more advanced in the field and works at the company. It’s unlikely she’d give you the info if a direct approach would be out of place in the culture.

    3. BRR*

      Did the alumna say anything when she gave you the information like “here’s the information, reach out and say X?” If not, I wouldn’t do anything with the hiring manager. It partially feels like the circumventing the system and partially feels like a weird pseudo referral. I think the alumna would need to be the one to reach out to the hiring manager in this situation and if you can think of wording to do a very soft ask in your thank you note that would be fine. But I would find it odd as a hiring manager if a candidate reached out and name dropped someone that I didn’t know or if it was someone I did know, why they didn’t reach out to me.

      1. Haven’t picked a user name yet*

        I would assume it is safe to just reach out directly. If it was outside of the Norma of the company I would bet she wouldn’t have passed on the info. As suggested above, apply through the usual channel, then send a quick email explaining the connection and something like: you look forward for the opportunity to learn more about the role through the process. That isn’t the most elegant language but essentially you want to signal you are not asking for their time outside of the normal process. If they offer a info session, that is a bonus. Good luck!

        1. Joan Rivers*

          Why would she give you the info. if she didn’t want you to use it? I don’t understand.

  2. LadyHouseOfLove*

    I’ve been thinking about answering the job interview question of what my weaknesses are. I want to answer honestly that I struggle delegating tasks to other people because I have this need to take on everything by myself. Is that too cliched? It is the truth, but I don’t want to come off as just taking answers from the Internet.

    1. Rainy*

      How does that relate to the job you’re applying to? Since you know it’s a weakness, what have you been doing to work on it? I think that considering those two things and incorporating them into your response could make it a useful one.

    2. velvet*

      I think the “trick” to this question is to identify a weakness *that you are successfully addressing.* If you said, “I’ve struggled to delegate tasks to other people because I have this need to take on everything by myself, but I’ve learned that the end product is better when more heads come together. So now I project manage by doing x and delegating y, and while it’s a work in progress, I’m improving”- that’s not cliche.

      1. Ooh La La*

        This. I don’t think it comes off cliche if it’s genuine, but definitely follow it up with how you’ve realized it’s an issue and are working on it.

      2. BRR*

        Yeah I think it’s fine if you frame it as an actual weakness that you’re working on. The thing to avoid are trying to make it sound like a strength.

      3. Sparkles McFadden*

        Yes, agreed. “Here’s what I’ve noticed about me in these sorts of situations and here’s how I stay on top of it.”

        It’s still a stupid question, though. I cannot believe people still ask it.

      4. Public Sector Manager*

        Totally agree. The OP can’t give a weakness they aren’t addressing.

        This question is asked for two reasons. The first is to see whether the person has assessed their own skills and talents. When people answer this question with “I work too much” or “I care too much,” you can tell that haven’t put much thought into analyzing their own skills. The second is, as velvet notes, is to see how you’re addressing a known problem. If you don’t give an answer on the solution part, it comes off as though you don’t care enough to fix it or you don’t really think it’s a problem.

        Some of my newer team members report that there are career books that will say “pick something not critical to your job and give that as your weakness.” The example someone gave is that if you’re applying to be a registered nurse, answer the question by saying your weakness is Power Point. Maybe some hiring managers will buy it, but I wouldn’t think much of that kind of answer. It lacks self-reflection. It’s a much more compelling answer to say something like: “when I started as a RN, needles made me nervous. So the hospital I was working at let me do three months of overtime shifts with the phlebotomists and now I never miss a vein!”

    3. CR*

      FWIW this is always my answer to that question too since it’s also true for me. I agree with Rainy below, try to relate your answer to the job you’re interviewing for.

    4. Dittany*

      It’s the truth, so that’s what you should say. Frame it in a way that makes it clear that you consider this to be a genuine weakness, not “Ooo, I work too hard and ~care too much~.” I’d also give a specific example of when this caused you problems and what you did to mitigate it.

    5. HigherEdAdminista*

      I think that can be a usable weakness, so long as you don’t make it sound like “I do all the work myself and do it perfectly, so I just can’t seem to delegate.”

      I think if you are able to show a real world example of how it impacted you and how you worked on it, it makes it seem more realistic. So it could be something like: “My greatest weakness is that I struggle with delegating work, and can sometimes take on too much. I was working on a teapot painting project two years ago where I had 75 teapots to paint in a week and I just didn’t know which ones to hand off to the junior painters, so I tried to do it all. By the end of the week, I saw that I was a bit behind where I needed to be and had to request a deadline extension on a couple of the teapot projects. After this, I started to make a conscious effort to figure out what realistic output to expect from myself, and also to schedule regular check-ins with the junior painters so I could feel confident that the work was being completed in a timely fashion when I had to hand things off.”

    6. NewSolutions*

      I use this question to filter out workplaces where I don’t want to end up. AKA if I don’t want to be micromanaged, I’ll say “My biggest weakness is working under close management. I do my best when I’m given lots of autonomy.” I’ll give examples of how I’ve worked to improve that in the past, but it seems to do a good job of actually providing a benefit to the job seeker.

      1. BRR*

        Not sure if that’s an actual example or just one for your reply but is that a weakness? If a candidate used that answer in an interview I wouldn’t consider it answering the question at all.

        1. ecnaseener*

          With tweaks you can make it fit the question more directly: “My biggest weakness is that I chafe under close management. If I’m not given enough autonomy, I find myself disengaging from the work because I have no sense of ownership and no room for creativity.”

    7. Artemesia*

      If you are applying to a management track position that will get you discarded I would think. If you do choose a failing that says ‘I am not management material’ you need to pair it with how you are working on that. Recognizing it as an issue coupled with a strategy for change might impress someone.

    8. Anonymous, of course*

      Why answer this question honestly at all? My primary weakness is that I suffer from chronic depression and prone to paralyzing shame spirals. Think I’m going to talk about that in an interview? No! That would be ill-advised!

      If I were asked that question, I would mention something insignificant, then pivot to talking about how I’ve solved that problem and my weakness is my reliance on said solution.

      “I find prioritizing tasks challenging, so I’ve become an obsessive list-maker. Coworkers often tease me for how I’m constantly rearranging and checking things off my to-do list, but without an up-to-date to-do list I’d be lost.”

      1. ecnaseener*

        I mean, in context the question is about work-related weaknesses, not the biggest weakness in your entire life. And then even among your biggest work-related weaknesses, you should pick one/s that are relevant to the discussion of whether you’re a good fit for X job.

        So if your depression & shame spirals will always be a thing regardless of the job, no point in talking about them. But if they’re worse in a particular type of work environment, that’s relevant! (Not that you should literally say “depression and shame spirals” but “I struggle with X type of management, I feel much better about my work when Y”)

        1. Different anonymous*

          It is work related though. Not the previous poster, but my anxiety disorder and shame spirals have caused real, demonstrable problems at work. Because of my past problems at work I have more anxiety about work than any other situation. I wish it was beneficial to me to share this info but it isn’t for many reasons that have been discussed on this blog before. Instead, people don’t know what’s actually going on and end up thinking I’m inconsiderate or socially inappropriate or not trying.

          It’s also not the biggest weakness in my entire life. Having a mental illness isn’t an all around personal flaw. My friends and family know I have mental health issues and are understanding and don’t ostracize me or berate if the symptoms are showing. (Which in turn makes the symptoms a lot less bad in my personal life because I am not always expecting the other shoe to drop.) If anyone in my personal life acted like that I would just not be in contact with them.

          It seems like you’re telling the person that they should answer honestly, but what you’re suggesting isn’t answering the question honestly. I could say I struggle with high-pressure environments but so does everybody.

          1. ecnaseener*

            What I was trying to say was:
            – If it’s not just work-related, but specifically relevant to the discussion of whether you’re a good fit for X job and X job is a good fit for you, discuss it — don’t explicitly name it because of stigma, but describe elements of it in context of what works well/poorly for you.
            – If it isn’t helpful for that discussion, pick something else.

            Re it not being your biggest weakness…okay? “Anonymous, of course” said this was their primary weakness, and I took them at their word and responded to that. I didn’t call it a personal flaw and I certainly didn’t say anyone should put up with being ostracized or berated.

      2. BethDH*

        I’m coming to this late, but in case you’re in the comments later: I recently had a candidate answer this question with an answer that I think might be the workplace version of the shame spiral part: she mentioned that when things didn’t go perfectly, she tended to spend too much time blaming herself and not focusing on constructive things to do differently in the future, and that she was mitigating that by developing a more structured step-by-step process for reviewing how a project had gone to force herself to be focused on constructive approaches.
        I think the key here is that you can use this if you are focused on how the internal state (which you don’t have to mention explicitly in the interview) creates actions or impacts in the workplace and what you do to mitigate it.
        Depression is so individual that I wouldn’t presume to say how that would look for you, and that could be harder to use depending on how yours manifests, but it could basically be saying something like how you power through (if you do) when you have a period of “low motivation” or something like that. I know low motivation is NOT depression, but I think that keeps the focus on the parts that are relevant to the interviewer.

    9. Nesprin*

      Honestly, I try very hard to stick to the truth for that sort of question, and to use it to explain what I will be terrible at and what I’ll be great at. It’s kind of my opportunity to ask the company if my work style will work for them.

      Mine is: I’m easily bored and if I’m running the same assay day in and day out, I’ll hate my job. As a result I look for positions where I can be doing something different every day- if you need someone who can learn a new discipline every month and take on challenging work with poorly defined parameters, I’m your girl. If you need a robot standin or someone who thrives in getting really good at the same assay, I’m sure not.

      If you struggle with delegating, that’d be a challenging fit for a project manager whose entire job is delegating. For an admin who is supposed to handle everything and make that look easy, that’s more of a natural fit, or a subject matter expert who is supposed to handle only the stuff they can uniquely do.

      1. Fran Fine*

        I haven’t been asked the weakness question in years (most of my interviews follow the STAR method, which is better at getting at those questions anyway), but your weakness is what I used to say back in the day when I was asked. Like you, I’d rather know upfront whether I’m going to be stuck doing mind numbing work all day so I can opt out before accepting a job I’ll ultimately end up quitting anyway.

      2. Anon#24601*

        This is pretty much my answer too, although I frame it a bit differently: “I can pick things up very quickly and always enjoy learning new things, but that strength also comes with a propensity to get bored with repetitive tasks and routine once I’ve mastered them. It’s important to me to be given or have ways to create new challenges to solve.”

    10. Joielle*

      I’ve used that one before when interviewing at nonprofits – that I take on too much because everything is important. It goes over well because everyone can relate. Lol

    11. Noname*

      This is definitely a weakness for me and I used it when I interviewed for my current job. I explained how I understood how this impacted my work, how I was actively working on it, and what my plan was going forward. I think that including these kinds of specifics keeps it from being a cliche answer and makes it personal to you.

    12. Anonymous Hippo*

      As long as your genuine in your realization that this really is a problem, and can show how you are working on it, I don’t think it’s cliché. The problem is when people try and spin a positive as a negative.

    13. Jessi*

      Can your biggest weaknesses be things that aren’t relevant to the job?

      My two biggest weaknesses (that are job related)are that I’m rubbish at ironing, and that I’m pants at all the tiny details. But in my current role no ironing is required and they are looking for more of a big picture person so I have weaknesses and I’m open and honest about them but for this specific role those weaknesses just doesn’t matter

      1. BethDH*

        I think it does matter that they be relevant to the role, though maybe indirectly so. When someone answers with something that is irrelevant, it sounds like they are either ducking the question or (possibly worse) that they don’t understand the role.

  3. Should I apply*

    Anyone have experience with a career coach or something similar when you are thinking about going to part time? Or just have experience going part time, in a role where it isn’t common? I am considering the transition because I want more time to see if I can turn my hobbies into a career, but don’t want to give up all my income & health insurance while I figure it out.

    I am lucky to be in the position where I can afford to live on significantly less income than I currently make. However, I’m afraid that going part time in my current role would just mean that I get paid less, but am pretty much expected to do the same amount of work. For reference, I am a engineer in product development, and I’m not aware of anyone in engineering at my current or past companies that worked part time.

    1. ten four*

      I work a reduced schedule now, and have worked one in the past as well. You are Very Right to be concerned that you will simply work the same number of hours for less pay + the hassle of being the One Person on Reduced Schedule.

      The best way that I’ve found to do it is to have on/off days instead of shortened regular days. So work M-W-F instead of every day until 2, or whatever. And then just RESOLUTELY DON’T check in on your off days (barring a really significant issue, which should happen quarterly at most and ideally less).

      Also as an engineer there might be a few advantages for you, assuming you use points to plan work? I am on a reduced schedule and now I can deliver 25 points instead of 50 in a sprint (or whatever it is). You’ll also potentially need to shift the KIND of work you do – pulling tickets vs. code review.

      For reference, I am a director at a digital firm and I manage several people on reduced schedules both directly and on projects. It works just fine as long as we adjust the tickets and plan around outages.

      1. should i apply?*

        I am a mechanical engineer, and I haven’t been in a project that uses points. The tasks tends to be fuzzy, and I have found people are really poor at estimating how long different things will take. Especially since a lot of what I do is one off and not repetitive.

        I did do quick search to see if there were any jobs being listed for part-time work. Of 235 engineering jobs listed in my area, 3 were listed as part time :(

        1. Cascadia*

          Your best bet might be to see if you could negotiate with your current job for a part-time position. They may or may not go for it. My partner is an electrical engineer for a big consulting firm, and one of his direct reports just requested to go part-time so they can also go back to school, and they’re making it work. They are pretty desperate for good workers, so they had every incentive to keep this employee on, even in a half-time capacity. I have another friend who is a scientist who negotiated going part-time in order to pursue a side gig. She was actually just going to quit outright, but when she told her boss, they begged her to stay on part-time, and they worked out a contract gig that really works well for her. I agree with the others that you need to be ruthless about protecting your hours and setting boundaries no matter what you do. And keep in mind if there are lots of “Extras” that everyone is expected to do. For instance, I’m a teacher and the part-time teachers at my school get totally screwed – yes, they have half the classes, but they are expected to go to all of the faculty meetings, and parent meetings, and students meetings, etc. etc. It really adds up and eats into your time when you only have half the hours.

      2. Krabby*

        I do HR in tech and that would be my advice as well. If you cut your schedule short by 2 hours everyday, well now you have to work overtime for 2 hours everyday and you’re working the same hours. Taking Fridays off may mean you still work a few extra hours during the week, but you’re much less likely to get sucked into just staying a few extra hours to finish X, Y and Z.

    2. T. J. Juckson*

      As someone who is part time in a professional job (where the general expectation is that I’d be full-time or, if not that, a consultant, so available more broadly), I’d say it is absolutely crucial to enforce boundaries. That’s taken me much too long to do. Now, I only work my regular, scheduled hours. I do not answer emails, calls, or texts outside those hours, and I have an out-of-office response on the days I don’t work clearly stating that I’ll reply during my regular hours. It’s less an issue with outside people than my boss, who otherwise would call at all times (Saturday at 7:30 am, anyone?) for non-urgent things.

      I’d love to hear more from other part timers as well, but I’ve come to think that only by ruthlessly enforcing your time boundaries and what can be accomplished in that time is the only way being part time ends up not being a scam.

      You mention health insurance (which I also get), which is obviously a big deal, but depending on how well you would be able to enforce part time hours, I’d also run the math to see if working as a contractor, and thus charging corresponding higher rates, might work better instead.

      1. Momma Bear*

        And if you go 1099/contract, very very carefully weigh how you will bill. A firm fixed price contract may look good initially, but leaves you vulnerable to working for pittance if there is project/scope creep. Hourly is probably better. If you become a contractor, you may be on the hook to handle your own tax payments, which is a significant chunk, so review that as well before you set a rate.

    3. Anonosaurus*

      I’m an attorney and I work 4 days a week. If I wanted to, I could work full time hours for part time pay, and the partners would love that, but I’ve learned to be pretty ruthless about boundaries. I have found that it’s a lot easier to keep your boundaries if you are also tactical about how you present yourself. For example if we’re in the week before trial I’m not going to refuse to take a call from the defendant’s attorney to talk settlement just because it’s my nonworking day. So it’s clear I am still results focused and willing to be flexible. But when there’s nothing much going on, you bet I switch off my phone or at least ignore emails when I’m not working. It helps that I need to track my hours for billing so everyone can see what I’m doing. I also work in a field which is either flat out or dead, so it evens out. My tips would be to be clear on your time boundaries but give way tactically when there are presentational advantages. And also, nobody cares about protecting your unpaid hours as much as you do, so you may need to push back. I’m very successful and I love my job so it can be done, although I don’t know what engineering is like in comparison to law!

  4. Amy*

    I am working on a project for a professional society that is interested in improving their professional development offerings. Their technical topics are really strong, but I’d like to focus on some broader topics around leadership, career transitions, or softer skills, like communication. What topics would be interesting to you, particularly if you’re in a STEM career?

    1. Sandi*

      Bystander training: how to say something when you witness harassment.

      How to deal with difficult people, conflict resolution.

      1. Msnotmrs*

        I did training for de-escalation and I think it was one of the more helpful job-related trainings I’ve ever taken.

      2. OhNo*

        +1 to conflict resolution, de-escalation, or anything about dealing with difficult people

        Even if folks aren’t customer-facing, those are skills that come in handy when dealing with difficult coworkers, bosses, vendors, etc. Just make sure to have examples from dealing with all those different roles! The last training like that I attended billed itself as being broadly applicable, but all of the examples were of dealing with customers, which most folks in the audience probably didn’t do on a regular basis.

      3. Momma Bear*

        You may be able to piggyback on community resources for these, and they may be free/low cost.

    2. Susan Calvin*

      One of my favorite trainings I’ve had (and was sad that we’d only booked the 2h sneak peek version instead of the full day course) was about effective visualization, in presentations and when using whiteboard or flipchart. I’m in a technical position that spends a lot of time talking to non-tech (or very-different-tech) people, and I’ve gotten a lot of mileage out of that!

      1. Prague*

        Yeah! Translating strategic vision to tech, or tech to regular language can be really useful also. It’s underrated until you don’t have anyone who can do it.

    3. Prague*

      – What types of changes will result in customer/internal communication needs and emphasis as automation and AI improve?
      – In fields with high demand/turnover, what are leadership needs, junior employee training for leadership positions, and recruitment/retention efforts changing?
      – How do we reward our best technical subject matter experts and set them up for success (including clear expectations, training, maybe a trial run) for leadership positions that may take them far out of their comfort zones?

    4. McMurdo*

      Ooooh I think about this all the time!
      (1) Communication specifically to non-technical people — I’ve been looking at scicomm articles as a basis.
      (2) Any ethics that come up regularly — in my field, I’m thinking about giving testimony as a citizen that relies on your experience as an engineer but isn’t “”expert testimony,”” or the obligation to point out data errors in legislative bills, or the ethics of working for certain companies.
      (3) Any non-traditional career paths that members have followed that others might want to emulate.
      (4) If there are certifications in your field, I’ve found it really helpful to have people who have already gone through the process to walk me through it. I’m thinking of the Engineering licensures, but I’d also find it really helpful for stuff like project management and sustainability.

      1. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

        Effective communication in general can be a valuable topic for many people, especially in technical fields. Understanding how things REALLY get done in your organization, knowing when you need an editor and who in the org can help with that, and how to manage both up and down.

        Something many of us can use is solid information on how to improve your performance as a remote worker or manager of remote workers.

    5. LKW*

      Adaptability technology solutions that are available to help people with different disabilities in the workplace. Screen readers, translation services, even presentation guides to avoid issues for people who are color-blind.

      1. Momma Bear*

        Yes, this is a great idea. Get people who have these concerns to be the SMEs and show real-world example problems and solutions.

    6. CG*

      Microaggressions, plain language communication, public speaking, and science advocacy training could all be cool. Depending on your field, maybe public policy process explainers too?

    7. Nesprin*

      Hmmm as a STEM type person, I really find most soft skills workshops to be less than great. Most of the ones I’ve attended tend to be banal “Synergy!!!” type events that I struggle to find value in, especially when lead by non-tech folks.

      Ones I have enjoyed tend to be very tech skills adjacent: resume/CV review workshop? Grant writing series, especially with a how to talk to a program manager slant? Atypical careers in field X and how you get them? Allyship and promotion of diversity as a tech person?

      1. TechWorker*

        I think the softer stuff *can* be useful but how well it’s taken depends about 95% on ho it’s presented. A roomful of engineers IME do not react well to chirpy positivity and anything vague or nebulous… the more you can include concrete examples in the training (we love a good concrete example), the better. Obviously you may not be able to – but if you can tweak the examples to suit the group that’s even better.

    8. Aly_b*

      I’m an engineer and PM and one that I think about a lot was negotiation training. Another I’d be interested in as someone who started a small business is more business adjacent stuff – less, like, marketing and stuff but more like what are the local regulations on, say, pay periods and hours of work, or some common ways to structure a business and the crunchy details of shares, taxation, etc.

    9. Intermittent Introvert*

      One of my favorite training topics was how to manage incoming emails. Seems small, but It has made a difference professionally and personally. I got dozens a day from a broad variety of places/people inside and outside the organization and it was overwhelming. Also, Zen PowerPoint techniques.

    10. Nikki*

      Project management.
      I’ve always been an organized person, but learning about the skills & systems involved in project management has really elevated my game. I think every STEM person can benefit from project management training. Even if you won’t be leading projects, you’ll be contributing to projects, and it really helps to be able to communicate progress effectively with the team.

  5. I like birds too but...*

    We are about to conduct Zoom interviews for an open position on our team. One employee has a bird that is regularly out of the cage, perched on the computer monitor that is visible during her video. Occasionally the bird will attempt to peck, gnaw, or squawk. I want to tell my employee to please not have the bird out of the cage during interviews. But is that overreacting? I wouldn’t tell anyone their dog had to be not in the room during these. But the employees with dogs don’t usually have them visible and the dogs collectively (4 of them across 2 team members) have barked once ever during meetings.

    1. Dust Bunny*

      Yeah, I would say something. I mean, you shouldn’t have to, but the guy should know now to have his bird making that much noise.

      I have cats. They’ve shown up onscreen a couple of times, fleetingly, but if they were yowling or something I’d get them out of the room and close the door, or whatever it took to quiet them.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Not overreacting at all.

      An interview is also a sales call. You wouldn’t have a bird flying around and blocking the camera when you’re trying to pitch a million-dollar contract, would you?

    3. Ooh La La*

      Is the employee touchy in general (or specifically about the bird)? If so, I think it’s fair to make a rule that applies to everyone. Job interviews are stressful and it makes sense to minimize potential distractions. You could say something like, “As a courtesy to our interviewees, I’d appreciate it if everyone could keep their pets contained [or in a separate room – if applicable/possible] during candidate interviews.” On the other hand, if you think the bird owner will be fine with it, you could address it just to her. Focusing on the comfort of interviewees makes it less personal, and harder to argue with.

    4. Whynot*

      Seems like a good time to send a friendly reminder to everyone involved in the interview process to ask that, to the best of their ability under their circumstances, they minimize potential background distractions during the interview process. “Please ensure phones are off, family members and pets have a separate place to be, your Zoom background looks professional, etc”

    5. Ashley*

      As someone with bird issues I would be so put off by a bird during my interview that I can’t imagine the interview going well. I would definitely say something.

      1. Unkempt Flatware*

        Agreed. I think enough people are put off by freely flying birds that this should probably be a rule for interviews or other non-private meetings.

        1. OhNo*

          Yeah, birds are a little more unusual as a pet, so their presence might be distracting to the applicants, too. As much as I love seeing people’s pets on camera in zoom calls, that would probably take a little getting used to.

    6. LKW*

      I’d frame it as the bird will likely distract the interviewee and that’s just poor form. Nothing like trying to formulate your responses and having an unexpected bird squawking at you.

      If this were an interview for a zoo – my response would be different… possibly.

    7. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      If the bird weren’t causing any disruption and just Being in the background, then it would be an overreaction; but the bird causes problems and you can address that. The employee may decide not to cage the bird, but instead move it or himself to a different location, or some other distraction…

      I also think it’s important that this is only for the interviews…internal low-stakes meetings shouldn’t be too restrictive on employees. Employers/bosses/coworkers are already “trespassing” on people’s private lives enough.

    8. Goddess47*

      I have a colleague who is terrified of birds. To the point she won’t buy a (dead) whole chicken at the market! The bird on the video, if she wasn’t pre-warned, would rattle her completely.

      Especially in an interview, you don’t know what kind of phobias people have and would be best to keep that to a minimum.

      1. Krabby*

        Yeah, I have two coworkers with the same issues. One of them literally screamed and made one of us change it when the default changing backgrounds in Windows was a bird one day.

        I’d just send out an email saying something like, “because this is a more formal meeting and we don’t know how the candidate may feel about animals, I ask that everyone keep their pets off camera and quiet during these interviews. This may mean you put them in a cage or shut them out of the room. After that we can go back to the normal rules around pets.”

    10. I should really pick a name*

      For an interview, asking them not to have a bird (or dog for that matter) in the room would be perfectly reasonable.

    11. UShoe*

      I think it’s perfectly reasonable. Two of my cats wander into work calls fairly frequently, but when we were interviewing remotely in January they were absolutely shut away for the day.
      I assume there’ll be some discussion of dress-code, coffe breaks etc. before the interviews, it would make sense to add to this “we want to make sure that all our focus is on our interviewees and all their focus is on us, so can everyone please ensure any pets are kept out of the call. Jack, that includes Polly Parrot.”

      1. LDF*

        Yup, my cats get all up in my webcam normally but if I’m conducting an interview and don’t think they’ll sleep through it then I put them in another room. Feels like pretty basic interview courtesy.

        I would be very put off by seeing a bird flying around while trying to present my best self to a company. If you’re their manager it’s very appropriate to tell them to put the bird away, and if you’re not their manager I’d at least suggest it.

    12. ....*

      I mean…. should the bird ever be doing that? I think it’s perfectly normal to tell them to get their sqwaking bird out of frame

      1. pancakes*

        I don’t see a problem with it so long as it’s not getting into danger, but I also think it’s perfectly appropriate to ask the person to keep it confined or in another room during interviews so as not to be a distraction.

    13. RagingADHD*

      Telling them to ensure the bird isn’t disruptive is completely appropriate and a big favor to the candidates. If the bird needs to go in the cage for that to happen, so be it. I’m sure if the dogs were disruptive (or kids, or cats, or whatever) you’d ask the employees to manage that.

      It would probably be a favor to your current team if you asked them to ensure the bird isn’t disruptive in regular meetings, too.

      1. Hillary*

        Honestly, the bird sounds less disruptive under normal circumstances than many distractions we’ve learned to deal with this year. I’ve met so many pets, toddlers who needed mom or dad’s immediate attention, and very rarely partners or roommates. Bad tech, broken headsets, too-sensitive microphones, and horrible cameras/lighting all add to it. (why oh why does zoom make my skin so red? I looks so much better in Teams)

        I think it’s a kindness to set interviewees up for success by minimizing distractions. They’re already nervous.

        1. I like birds too but...*

          Yes, this employee is in few meetings. The vast majority are with our immediate small team and the bird is fine enough in those cases.

      1. MacGillicuddy*

        Telling a bird lover (or any animal lover) that the bird needs to “not be disruptive” isn’t specific enough. I’ve known too many people who would say things like “oh, Polly isn’t disruptive, she’ll just sit quietly on my shoulder” (or like the one time I was visiting a bird owner and asked them to put the bird back in its cage “…but she likes to sit on your head”.

        Some animal lovers aren’t objective about this kind of thing. They can’t imagine that anybody would feel differently than they do about their animals

        I think you should ask people to keep pets off camera

        1. Pennyworth*

          Off camera and out of earshot if possible. A squawking bird or a barking dog out of sight are still distracting.

    15. Momma Bear*

      The bird is actively intrusive. It is not wrong to ask that the bird not be around, just like you would ask someone with children to have them in another room.

    16. JP*

      I would be absolutely delighted if I zoomed with someone and they had a bird on camera. Why would anyone ever not want that?

      1. Mr. Shark*

        Some people just don’t like birds. And many times birds make a lot of noise that is very distracting. It would just be as bad if dogs were barking constantly.

      2. Sleeping Late Every Day*

        JP, I’d love it, too, and it would do more to put me at ease than anything else could. But I’d probably start addressing all my comments to the bird.

      3. June First*

        [raises hand]

        I was attacked by birds when I was young. I am mostly ok with them now, but even reading this post kicked my anxiety up a notch.

    17. Coffee Officinado*

      I have Co worker who has bits. They are put off camera but the noise they make is so distracting. He wears a headset but the does not reduce the noise.
      I definitely think you should ask him to keep the bird away from the sight and hearing of the interviewee it’s an unnecessary distraction and could really put some candidates off.

  6. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    I’m working to not care so much about my job and its hard. I want to reach my goals but I also want to leave work at a reasonable time. So I’ve just been leaving at 6 and if I don’t get everything done I just don’t get everything done. I think I’ll get evaluated for ADHD so I have a chance of being able to focus.

    1. StillWaiting*

      Good strategy! You can only do so much in a day. It’s okay to leave some work!

    2. Ashley*

      I really get this not over caring about your job! Something to think about are you meeting the benchmarks for your job and are they reasonable? A lot of positions will keep dumping more work on you then is reasonable in an 8 hour day, but there are people also who don’t get much done during an 8 hour day no matter how much work they have. So are you getting a reasonable work load done? Because if so it is just a job and unless they are paying you (and you want that level of responsibility and pay grade) it is a business issue to get the work done and not a you issue to solve it.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        The problem is both. At least once a week I’ll get nothing done and just spin my wheels and then there’s times when I ended up getting something different things done than I planned. Like they switched the hardest reports to Monday. So every Monday I never get them done because it’s also the day they are most likely to say ” What about this totally different thing” and I just need a good 5 hour block to do them in. But I also have to plan the whole week and then I gotta fix the charts and it’s all very murky.

    3. Mockingjay*

      Maybe it would help if you looked at your productivity across the week or the month? We get fixated on 8 hours a day because that’s the business ‘norm’ for office hours and timekeeping. But most tasks don’t fit that 8-hour span. Some are shorter; most are way longer. Do what’s reasonable, leave on time, and pick up where you left off the next morning. At the end of the week, have you accomplished most of the stuff on your list? Then it was a good week.

      1. Ashley*

        This can be really helpful to set blocks for yourself. When are you most productive? Set those times for highest attention to detail work. It is most helpful if you can get buy in from your manager about having uninterrupted time for X project barring whatever would be a bigger emergency.

        1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

          The weird thing is that there’s no time where I’m most productive. I know the time I’m least productive is Monday morning when they want me to do the most complicated tasks. Sometimes in 6 to 8 pm block I can get stuff done but I’ve been skipping it.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Are you working under different conditions now than pre-pandemic, and is this a new issue or one you’ve always had? A lot of people are experiencing ADHD-like symptoms while WFH and/or under the extra stress of the past year. (The difference is that an ADHD brain acts all the time like a neurotypical brain that’s anxious, exhausted, or stressed).

      If this is new, you might look at behavioral management techniques first, like Pomodoro sprints, timers and auto-reminders, morning/evening planning sessions, and using checklists effectively. Those are all things ADHDers rely on but can also help anyone who is having trouble with focus and productivity.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        Its the same problem but worse since the pandemic. I like using a task timer and trying to beat my time, using a to do list, using my paper chart for things too big for to do ( like I have over a hundred things that need done) I like using my phone calender to pop up when I have an appointment.

        I do not like using a planner- and am surprised by people who don’t lose or forget to look at them.

        I lose time sometimes. Like I’ll have spent 2 hours and have no awareness of how it passed. Or I’ll totally lose focus for an entire day. If I have to do more than three phone calls on a subject back and forth I’m lost for a good 2 hours.

        I’m also confused by the suggestion to block off time ( not you my boss) I’m like you say you’re going to do something and you actually do it? I may or may not do it. Then again it’s hard to just make myself do something by an act of will. People will be like ” you just do the thing” and Im like ???

        1. ecnaseener*

          Oh mood, (coming from an ADHDer) the whole “block off a chunk of time to do this specific task” thing is like… why? How do I know I won’t be in the complete wrong headspace for that task at that time? My motivation is fleeting and unpredictable, if it’s pointed in the right direction to do one task then the worst thing I can do is try to pick a different task.

          1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

            Yea I never know which day will be just nothing all day long and which day I’ll be crushing it. I know the task that sets off the most procrastination is phone calls.

        2. RagingADHD*

          One thing that helps me sometimes is to block off sections of my day when my brain/energy is usually good for a certain type of work, and batch tasks togetger that use that same headspace. So like, 9-11 is good for following up calls and emails, 1-3 is good for things that take quiet concentration, or 3-5 I’m braindead so it’s good for total routine maintenance stuff. Those are just examples.

          Once I’m in the zone for something, it’s easier to bang a bunch of the same thing out, than it is to follow a certain topic or project through multiple different types of steps. If that makes sense. Switching is always tricky, but sometimes it’s easier to switch topics than to switch type of task.

    5. Mill Miker*

      I had this problem for a while, and while I never manager to stop caring, I did manage to make sure I didn’t cate the most.

      Now I always ask myself “Why am I staying late for this.” Sometimes it makes sense. Sometimes I lost focus or had to step away or otherwise dropped the ball, and yeah I need to make up the time to hit the deadline.

      Sometimes something has to happen at a specific time of day, and it’s part of my role to be there at that time to do thing. Fine.

      Sometimes the issue comes up with enough notice that a project or account manager could go back to the client or other stake holders and push for a new date, or a re-adjustment of priorities and they just… won’t even try. When the people above me aren’t willing to take small steps (on the clock even!) to resolve the issue, then to me that marks it as not worth worrying about. Either I’m right and it’s not worth worrying about, or their plan is that I’ll feel obligated to put in the unpaid overtime to save a company that just demonstrated it doesn’t value me.

      Although, I think this has worked for me because my higher-ups have always refused to outright ask for overtime. They just keep pushing the “this is important I hope it gets done on time” narrative, and I do make a point of trying my hardest during my usual hours. (just not harder than the person who is actually accountable for the project’s success).

  7. rabbit rabbit*

    In the letters and comments here, we can see tensions between workers who have been remote and are now coming back in, and those who have been coming in for a long time. I see this in my own workplace. People who worked remote tried to smooth things out by thanking the colleagues who came in, and saying things like, “My working at home dedensifies the space, keeping you safer”- both of which seem to have just led to more resentment. Any ideas on how to help heal the rift?

    1. SomebodyElse*

      I really don’t think you can at this point. People are going to feel what they are going to feel.

      1. JillianNicola*

        I agree. It’s going to be one of those things where we all collectively have to work through our own feelings. We went through a scary, uncertain, stressful thing and that’s going to have ramifications that are unavoidable. That said, I think the constant focus on the “divide” or “rift” just makes it worse. Figure out your re-opening policies, state them clearly, let the chips fall where they may.

        1. StellaBella*

          We are still going thru this thing and yes it is still scary. Agree with you overall tho.

    2. Monty & Millie's Mom*

      I don’t want to get into any “shoulds” here, but I think that acknowledgement from the WFH-ers that it was indeed a privilege to be able to do that would help. Because it really is a privilege for those that could do that – lots of “essential” workers are in low-paying, thankless jobs and do not have the privilege of education or opportunity for jobs where they could WFH. And even in offices where some can WFH and some can’t for WHATEVER reason, acknowledging that it’s not fair/equitable rather than just saying “thanks” can go a long way.

      1. pancakes*

        I had the privilege of working from home before the pandemic and I think this would be a bit too little a bit too late. Or maybe a little patronizing? If there’s anything to be done collectively—and I do think there is—it should involve getting people in low-paying and thankless jobs better pay and better benefits. Talking about privilege instead seems like clapping for nurses: A nice idea in some ways, but just not enough. I’m not convinced, either, that talking about privilege would address or remedy the privilege-blindness some people have, because there’s nothing to stop them going on about their business enjoying the status quo after they’ve said their lines.

        1. Monty & Millie's Mom*

          I don’t disagree with much of what you said – but that’s why I prefaced my original comment with not wanting to get into the “shoulds” of it all! :-) And it’s definitely not going to be THE ONE MAGIC THING that’s going to fix things! For SOME people who have had to go in to work, it’ll mean a lot, and for SOME who have gotten to WFH it’ll be a good reminder, too. But not everyone, of course.

    3. Dust Bunny*

      Yeah, don’t say stuff like that.

      The thing is, the damage is done, so to speak. How you heal the rift, to the extent that you can, sort of depends on why some people were coming in and some weren’t, I think. If they were coming in because their jobs couldn’t be done remotely, then you evaluate whether or not that can change in the future and, if it can’t, you find out what can be done to make having to come in more comfortable, as safe as possible, etc.

      If they were coming in because they volunteered, you make sure that other people volunteer to come in for the next crisis.

      If they were coming in because they’re lower status and didn’t have the power to refuse or to negotiate a rotating schedule of who came in, then that policy sucks and your higher-ups need to shoulder more of it in the future.

      If they were coming in because they didn’t have kids/elderly parents/other visible obligations at home, that policy also sucks and you need to find out what you can do to even the burden.

      1. CTT*

        Yeah, I was going to say something along these lines but you said it better. We’re past the point of thanking (like, a year past). A lot of people who were in the office, especially as part of a skeleton crew, had to do extra work by virtue of being in the office because it involved physical things like mail and hard copy documents. Thanking someone for dealing with that is nice, but figuring out if it’s possible to reduce overrealiance on in-office people for tasks like that would be better.

      2. OhNo*

        Agreed, to all of this. Also, just to add, but if folks were coming in because they volunteered, then it might be a nice gesture to give them some kind of thank you gift. If that’s an option, it should not take the place of dealing with the other problems Dust Bunny mentioned, it should truly be a free-and-clear bonus that they get regardless of any other considerations. Some additional vacation days might be nice.

        That said, if the emotions are already there, even the nicest gift or most heartfelt speech won’t solve them. Sometimes, truly the best thing you can do is acknowledge that the situation sucks, clearly state what you’re doing to solve the problem, and get feedback on what folks want fixed and commit to fixing it (Even if it’s hard! Especially if it’s hard!). Rifts like this take time and effort to heal, so unfortunately it’s never going to be easy.

    4. Ooh La La*

      I think it’s the company’s job to heal the rift, by listening to employees and providing actual benefits to address concerns. Individual employees shouldn’t have to feel they are responsible for this. Did the company have a clear and sensible policy for who could work WFH and who could not? Has the company been setting and adhering to COVID safety policies? Has the company financially compensated people who were in-office all along? Can the company give in-office people a few extra days of PTO this year? WFH has been a difficult situation for many people (no childcare, mental health impact, etc.), but nonetheless it’s a significant privilege to be able to stay home and not be exposed to COVID while still earning an income.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        +1

        This sounds very much like management and the company’s to handle, not a co-worker’s responsibility. As a co-worker, it could be an opportunity to spend some capital advocating for what the staff who had to go in ask for (i.e., “Yes, I think it makes sense that Jane, Lewis, and Kris receive XYZ”).

    5. Msnotmrs*

      “My working at home dedensifies the space, keeping you safer”

      As someone who works at an extremely high-risk job, I would honestly freak out if someone said this to me. Like it would set me off.

      1. rabbit rabbit*

        100% agree. When I read that in an email, I started shaking my head NO NO NO.

      2. allathian*

        Would you honestly have felt better if all the employees who could have worked from home had come in to the office instead, increasing your risk as well as their own?

        Presumably you chose your high-risk job and weren’t forced into it as some form of indentured slavery? Granted you probably didn’t include a potential pandemic in your calculations when you did so, but still, if it’s that intolerable you can always try and find something that’s less risky to do in the future.

        1. Heather*

          Wow, that sure is helpful advice when the pandemic came with a side helping of 15% unemployment…

        2. who's this guy*

          Wow. Let me guess, you’re one of the people complaining nobody wants to work because they’re receiving more in unemployment benefits, when in fact those people are switching to a job with actual room for growth instead of grabbing any job that pays poverty wages (and then a second one) in desperation to keep their head above water.

          As a matter of fact, US policies are designed to keep most poor people poor. It’s really not far-fetched to say lots of “essential” workers are systematically forced into a form of indentured servitude they’ll never escape from through sheer willpower alone. What’s your excuse for being a sociopath (i.e., someone with no empathy)?

            1. allathian*

              Thanks. But fair point, unemployment is an issue I hadn’t considered when I wrote that. Too many Friday good news posts here about folks who find new jobs even in these times. Sorry about that. I just assumed that among office workers, some of whom had been told to WFH and others who haven’t been given that option the power differential wouldn’t be that big. I’m not comparing the working conditions of executives and Lyft drivers or retail employees here, but rather individual contributors who can WFH and those who can’t because some part of their job requires their presence at the office, and who were working in the same office spaces pre-pandemic. In that case, I think it should be OK to say that “I hated WFH but I did it so that there would be fewer employees at the office” without getting chewed out over it.

              1. Msnotmrs*

                Obviously I don’t know your life or your circumstances, but the amount of stress that people who were obligated to work in the office/out in the field are under is truly enormous. I work in an industry that saw about a 35% infection rate across the US. Why do the WFHers need to say anything at all? A statement like “I stayed home to de-densify the space” just reads like they’re attempting to say their experience was equally dangerous and sacrificial as mine. It wasn’t.

        3. Msnotmrs*

          1. I chose my high-risk job before the pandemic began.

          2. Something can be true (such as having some people WFH makes things safer) without people needing to basically say “I made a sacrifice for you, please clap”

    6. Ashley*

      I tried to thank the people who made me being remote possible on an ongoing basis and in very specific ways of thank you for doing x and I know that means more work for you. I did have bigger picture conversations with my boss about why me staying remote was important including me not being there reduced the risk for everyone else in part to help convince them of the need for some people to be WFH. It also kept me safe if there was an outbreak, and when my team had an outbreak and was able to keep rolling while they were out for a few weeks. I think this is something the manager could have a conversation about how the I was keeping you safe is landing, but this is really an emotional intelligence/soft skill thing that can be really hard to teach and everyone’s emotions are super high about this right now so in some ways talking less about might be safest.

      1. KAZ2Y5*

        But see, that’s the thing. You staying home kept you way safer than it did the people who had to come in to the office. I’m a hospital employee, so I know I have to come in no matter what but (in general) if someone told me that they were keeping me safer by doing their job at home I would see red.

        1. allathian*

          And as I’ve been saying in this thread, why exactly would you see red? I just do. not. get. it.

          1. nom de plume*

            I honestly have trouble understanding what you don’t get. A pandemic erupted. People were told to stay home if they could to work, while everybody was terrified of catching a deadly virus that was poorly understood and often barely treatable.

            Do you really think that people stayed home thinking, “I do so for the well-being of my colleagues who don’t have that option; my concern is focused on them.”? Seriously? No. People stayed home to protect themselves first and foremost. For them to return to work now with some post-facto, self-focused justification of faux-altruism is as insulting as it is tone-deaf as it is disingenuous.

            Your previous defensive reply about “oh well would you have preferred them to all come in then?” suggests you don’t grasp that justifying your privilege to others is not the same as thanking them for what they did, much less acknowledging what they endured. If stay-at-homers want to say something, which I’m not sure is wise at this point, then the black-and-white take of “hey if you didn’t like it, you could have left bc you’re not indentured” is NOT what is going to convey empathy. It’s not about you.

    7. Artemesia*

      defensiveness is never a good approach — say ‘It is so good to be back’ and leave it at that.
      ‘my benefit that you didn’t get is REALLY good for YOU’ — not going to make them love you.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This.
        I went into work all through Covid. I am lucky to be alone in the office, many people had more difficulty than I did.
        However, NO one has thanked me. And I don’t expect to be thanked. My thanks, to me, came when I found myself with more PPE than I will ever use, and when the boss would call me up to say, “Wrap up, GO HOME!” But, Boss, I’m not done. “Go HOME!”
        If anyone was going to thank me it should be my boss or the higher ups. It would be odd coming from a peer.

        I will say that of my peers that showed up, we watched out for each other and we knew we could ask each other for help at any point. If you want to say anything, thank them for something in current time. If Mary helps you with X today, very specifically say or email, “Thanks for your help with X today, Mary.” That is the biggest thing I noticed that people were more apt to thank each other through out the day. The second biggest change I noticed was people would check on each other- from a distance of course.

        1. Momma Bear*

          Agreed. When I’m remote but I need someone to do a task for me that day (we are hybrid), I thank them in the moment. The bigger issue is work culture if the in-office people feel resentful or vice versa. If the managers have not been doing an effective job keeping the team together/balanced, that is what should be reviewed and mitigated as people return to office space. I don’t think anyone here did me a favor by being remote. They made the choice based on their own situation, not mine.

      2. allathian*

        But when it’s not good to be back? I’d honestly resent the hell out of my employer if I were forced to return because some people are angry that they weren’t able to WFH because my job can be done 100 from home.

    8. I should really pick a name*

      Can you see why statements like that would lead to resentment?

      It makes it sound like the person who’s been working from home is claiming that they did it as a favour to those who couldn’t.

      1. rabbit rabbit*

        Definitely. As I mentioned upthread, I had a big time cringe at that latter sentence especially.

      2. allathian*

        I’ve loved working from home, but some people hate it. Those who hate it and were basically forced into it, especially if they live alone and didn’t even get to see their coworkers at the office probably do feel like they did it as a favor to those who remained at the office.

    9. Mynona*

      In my mixed office, the best practice is not to talk about your personal pandemic work experience and/or feelings–like, at all. Because everyone had a different experience, and some people had a choice and a lot of people didn’t. Esp. right at this moment, with new office masking policies, everyone is on edge and unsure. Best to get on with work.

      1. pancakes*

        This seems like a pretty good practice considering how many people have lost loved ones. The problem is that it’s going to intuitively make sense to people who try to be mindful about such things, and maybe won’t even be on the radar for people who tend to put their foot in their mouth. Ideally there would be a manager or supervisor discreetly discouraging the latter from using the pandemic as a talking point as people return? It’s going to be difficult.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Adding, I had people around me who lost a close loved one, or had a closed loved one get a terminal diagnosis both for non-covid reasons AND deal with all the Covid stuff on top of that. This stuff gets mind bending. Better to focus on the here and now.

          1. pancakes*

            Yes – losing someone for reasons not covid-related is never easy, of course, but not being able to have the usual services, gather with people, etc., is hugely difficult in itself.

      2. Juniper*

        And not only that, but a lot of people had a tough time working from home. I know most of my friends and family worked far longer hours and had a much harder time maintaining a work/life balance. I really struggle not having a routine and getting to meet people. We all have different experiences, and I think being able to discuss the past year frankly, without making value judgements or ranking them, is key.

        1. Hillary*

          It’s about knowing your audience. Commiserating with someone who shared your experience – absolutely. Talking about it to someone who had a completely different set of stresses, maybe not.

          1. allathian*

            Depends on the relationship you have with the person who had a completely different experience, surely? But you’re right, it’s a matter of knowing your audience.

    10. BRR*

      Assuming both sets were more or less obligated to be in the office or at home, I (a remote worker) would just try to be empathetic and acknowledge the situation of the office workers. If people are forced to be somewhere, I don’t like the concept of thanking them because it wasn’t their choice. I would also try to minimize complaints about working from home.

      Also “My working at home dedensifies the space, keeping you safer” is one of the worst possible things to say in this situation and if I was even somewhat close to the person who said it, I would let them know how insensitive that comment is.

      1. Sherm*

        Yeah, that’s a bit like saying “Since I took a lifeboat off the Titanic, I didn’t get in your way on the ship.” I would be resentful, too.

      2. allathian*

        I honestly don’t understand why that comment is so insensitive, if the employee had no choice in whether they had to WFH. For employers who ordered some people to WFH while keeping others in the office, if they did it purely for job-related reasons, the only reason they did it was to dedensify the office. I honestly don’t understand why it’s insensitive to acknowledge that.

        It would be worse to brag like “yeah, I got to WFH safely while you were forced to come here, yay for me, sucks to be you!”

        1. Ooh La La*

          Because it’s unhelpful and condescending. What is the other person supposed to respond? “You’re right, thanks so much for staying home to keep me safe”? No. People who have been WFH this whole time need to recognize our privilege and make space for the reality of our peers who have been living a vastly different – and at times extremely frightening – situation for over a year.

          1. allathian*

            Fair point, I suppose. But to be fair, WFH hasn’t been a bed of roses for everyone either. Suicide rates are spiking, as are homicides, DV, and divorces. Not to mention the mental health issues that forced isolation can cause. Sure, isolating is the only way to prevent spread, but this doesn’t mean that everybody who’s been working remotely has enjoyed it or been safe doing it. For people who have been suffering through WFH, it’s natural to think that those who were at the office should be grateful for their sacrifice. That said, people with this experience are probably very happy to return to the office!

            1. Oh good grief*

              I mean, you’ve made about eight comments to date about how you just don’t get why that faux-altruism comment is awful, all of them nested under comments *explaining* why that point of view is self-centered, tone-deaf, and entirely devoid of consideration for those who remained in the field / in office.

              Let me suggest that you’re not really trying to understand at all – you want to complain about how WFH was hard on you / why returning to the office is harder still / some other variation that’s about your experience. In that case, it’s not a surprise you can’t see how insulting such a comment would be.

            2. CorruptedbyCoffee*

              This doesn’t make sense. You don’t think people forced to work in high risk, high stress jobs in person during the pandemic had those issues? You don’t think people who were also dealing with the danger of working in person also had divorces, suicides, and mental health issues?

              Regardless of whether or not they wanted it or enjoyed it, people who worked from home were safer in a time when we knew some people were going to have to take on additional risk for us all. Your reply ignores that, suggests that only people staying home had stressors, and just comes across as shockingly lacking in empathy.

    11. ExceptionToTheRule*

      My issue with people coming back into the office (other than parking) is that those of us who had to be in the office daily knew where & who the risk points were. Many of us, like those who WFH, became comfortable in our work bubbles. We talked with each other about safety, exposure, etc… and now there are a whole bunch of people whose exposure risks I don’t know roaming around the building.

    12. ....*

      I think that it’s because that is an incredibly patronizing thing to say. People going in were at much more risk even if it’s “de densified”. Frankly the “I’ll stay home so there’s less people out there for you to deal with” just reeks of Privileged people trying to make them feel better that they’re thrilled to be home while others do the dirty work.

    13. Donkey Hotey*

      I’ve been 100% in office since last May. The only thing that would irritate me is the term “de-densifiy.”

        1. TechWorker*

          density =/= intensity
          (Not to nitpick, I think the phrase is awful! But it sounds like a buzzword someone’s come up with to mean ‘there were fewer people in the office overall’, not any statement about the intensity of the situation)

    14. RagingADHD*

      “It’s good to see you, what do you need help with, what can I do for you?” are probably more productive things to say than this stuff about de-densifying. The density/safety issue is about science. They don’t need to hear science, they understand it already.

      It’s tricky to deal with situations that you didn’t cause, but benefit from. It’s not like the folks who WFH caused the pandemic, were responsible for the company policies, or created the onsite workers’ jobs.

      That’s why privilege is always difficult to address without sounding stupid or condescending. In other situations of speaking across privilege, it helps for the privileged person to defer to the person who has had the harder experience. Listen. Be teachable. Exercise your own impulse control and avoid acting/sounding defensive.

      Ask about and look for ways to help and advocate for them on a practical level. You get everyone on the same side by putting yourself on their side.

    15. SnappinTerrapin*

      It comes across as patronizing for those who could WFH to say that doing so benefited those who had to work on site during the pandemic.

      We noticed there was a pandemic going on. We know that the WFH policies reduced the overall risk to society. It especially reduced the risk to you and your family, and I’m glad you were able to do that.

      But the office workers who stayed home didn’t reduce my exposure to the patients I helped get out of their cars and into the wheelchair to bring them into the ER, nor did it reduce my exposure from escorting families to the ICU for end of life visits, or escorting morticians to the morgue to pick up the deceased patients.

      I’m even glad that many people were paid to stay home from work for a few weeks. My thinking at the time was that the situation was sufficiently critical that it would be better to err on the side of being overly generous than to let people starve while their workplaces were closed. The best way to thank those of us who worked with the public through the pandemic would be by some targeted economic compensation, whether it comes from employers or taxpayers. But I won’t hold my breath waiting for it.

      1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

        My spouse had to work on-site the entire time (on a reduced schedule) and even with a skeleton staff, there were people in his building who got Covid. They’d go to a stricter phase and delay full staff and business even longer. That’s a stress the WFH and their families didn’t have to endure every single freaking day.

    16. ecnaseener*

      Recognizing that it’s not an oppression-olympics goes a long way.

      I’ve been remote this whole time, living with a teacher who’s been in-person. She doesn’t resent my complaining about WFH because I also got angry on her behalf about unsafe school openings and no vaccines for teachers. And as much as I complain, I never imply that I have it worse than her, because I realize that I’m not in physical danger.

      There is space for everyone to be scared and unhappy, if we just make each other feel seen.

      1. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

        Also bear in mind that many people worked from home before COVID and that WFH has benefits (for some people, in some jobs) that go beyond halting the spread of germs. As a wheelchair user, I greatly prefer WFH because getting to and from an office takes up a lot of energy that I would rather be spending on doing great work. And that doesn’t stop me being appreciative of front-line workers and tipping my pizza guy lavishly.

    17. Speaks to Dragonflies*

      I typed this up in response to the post on wnot working from home, but the comments were closed before I could submit it. This is just one persons thoughts and feelings, and not ment to inflame anyone. If anyone responds to this,please please keep it civil.

      Yes, it feels like a huge class divide. To me, it seems not to be between race, rich and poor, or have and have not, although I’m sure those metrics will align in a way. But the divide seems to be between white collar and blue collar. White collar work seems to be more easily done at home. My wife is a white collar worker. The only time she had to go into her office was to pick or deliver physical files or equipment. Other than that, it’s all been emails, zoom meetings and phone calls.

      On the other hand, blue collar work can’t be done from home. It’s in the trenches, making and repairing things, stocking shelves, cooking food, filling orders and a myriad of other things that can’t be done unless someone is there physically doing them, and I’m sure a lot of those tasks are being done, at least in some degree, to allow the white collar workers to stay home and isolate. *All the while, the majority of narrative we hear and read about is about how hard isolation is and how zoom meetings are horrible.* Even worse is when there are complaints about how their order was wrong, how the delivery person was rude, or that what they wanted was out of stock. And now that things are opening up, and many of the white collar workers are having to leave isolation to go out amongst the blue collar workers…to be at the same risk blue collar workers have been in all along, it’s gnashing of teeth, and fear and woe is me.

      I can’t speak for everyone, but I think what a lot of the essential workers are saying is that we feel taken for granted. We feel that our concerns, worries, and fears aren’t heard, and if they are, they are brushed aside by the isolationists with a pat on the head and a “That’s nice dear, now bring me my groceries.” attitude. Thats why, I think, that Allison tries to have these kinds of posts. So that the blue collar, essential workers can have a voice. So we can be heard over the din of the voices of the working from home folks going on about how scary it is to have to go back into the workspace. So please,give us our space to vent, to have our day, to express our fears and to give and recieve advice on this subject.
      Sorry this got so long. I’ll step down from the soapbox now.

      * I’m sure that WFH has its own challenges. My wife tells me how aggravating, boring, and just plain awful parts of it are. I couldn’t do what she does, even if things were like they were in the before times. Thank you folks for keeping things rolling on the things y’all do.
      – [ ]

      1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

        My husband is essential but not blue collar – a government drone. I think there are a lot of people in those kind of jobs. But apart from that quibbling clarification, your post is spot on. Thank you.

    18. Mononoke Hime*

      Thanking the in-person crew is fine, but the “I stayed home to keep you safe” attitude is extremely tone deaf since WFH IS a privilege. They should recognize that and avoid justifying or even one-upping the in-person crew in terms of the misery and difficulties everyone faces.

      Also, it is an issue the company can address effectively by providing extra compensation for those who stayed behind.

      1. allathian*

        WFH was and is a privilege in the sense that there are lots of jobs that can’t be done from home. Many people, including me loved being able to do it. But many others have suffered through social isolation or being stuck with people who make their life a living hell. It shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone that DV incidents, divorces, suicides, and homicides are spiking.

        The mental health consequences of long-term forced isolation are going to be with us even when the pandemic eventually passes or becomes just another recurring flu pandemic. There’s a generation of babies and toddlers who’ve never interacted with an unmasked adult who isn’t their parent. We don’t know what the consequences of that will be once the world starts opening up again. For a middle-aged person like me, a year is a short time and I’m not missing any milestones, but I do feel for the high-school students who’re missing out on their proms and graduation parties, and who’re having to start college remotely. Once those milestones are passed, you don’t get to do them again. It’s going to be a defining generational experience for many young people.

        1. CorruptedbyCoffee*

          Dude. Please stop bringing up the mental health consequences of working from home. I have coworkers who couldn’t work from home who now have PTSD. My MIL had to work while sick with covid and lost the use of her arm. Working from home was not the only or even the primary suffering going on.

    19. 653-CXK*

      “My working at home dedensifies the space, keeping you safer” sounds pretty damn tone deaf and patronizing to me, and little wonder why it’s led to more resentment.

      I’ve WFH during the pandemic, and I appreciate my coworkers who didn’t have the luxury of doing so either (a) because they were furloughed or (b) because the nature of their job cannot be worked from home.

      Don’t be a smug, self-satisfied, sanctimonious tool spewing out that line of horsehockey to someone who didn’t have the option of WFH. It’s nasty, mean, and uncalled for. Appreciate the circumstances in this pandemic and don’t look down on others who didn’t have the opportunities others did.

      Sorry for sounding salty, but this phrase set me off. Alison, if this is too much, feel free to delete (or wrap the Light Blue Box of Watch Yourself on it).

      2. 653-CXK*

        Now that I’ve calmed down a bit, I want to say a few more things.

        1) 100% agree that WFH is a privilege. In my case 98% of my work can be done from home, but the other 2% must be done in the office. I will be very glad to return to the office, however – CurrentJob hasn’t determined when we’ll be back, but I estimate around September or so, and I may do what I did at ExJob – three days at the office, two at home.

        2) I wore a mask because it was a required health protocol in my state, not as a kind of badge of honor, symbol of political resistance/solidarity, or a means to virtue signal. I’m certain there will be people who will still wear masks for other health reasons (they’ve certainly helped in my seasonal allergies), but wearing them for show is at best silly and at worst patronizing.

        1. Joan Rivers*

          One of the very best attitudes people can run is:
          GRATITUDE.

          Being allowed to work from home while others can’t deserves gratefulness from those who can. They were safe at home while others weren’t.

          Trying to twist it into “wfh benefited those at work” is a very bad look.

  8. LilacLily*

    I am a senior employee at a medium sized company and my job technically includes acting as a leader and supervisor of sorts to my coworkers on top of supporting our customers, but I haven’t yet been trained or given responsibilities on that front due to covid disrupting most of our plans. Recently, my team leader’s announced that he’s resigning, and he’s asked me for help interviewing a few candidates that have applied for an open position in our team; although I know a lot of the theory from years of reading Ask A Manager I have never participated in a hiring process before and I’m both excited and anxious.

    One thing that I want to get people’s opinions on is in regards to implicit bias and employee diversity. As a queer latina woman in a UK based non-profit I don’t feel excluded or left out, but I do feel like we lack diversity in the company as a whole, and thankfully the company itself has also acknowledged this and has been doing their best to work on being more diverse and inclusive of everyone.

    I mentioned to a friend that I forwarded the job ad to a queer group I’m part of, and someone from the group forwarded the job to someone who’s also queer, and although I won’t know for sure until I see their resume and cover letter they seem quite a good fit, but more than that, I was hopeful that this could be a good opportunity for us to hire someone who’s queer and not male. My friend, however, pointed out that I shouldn’t take into consideration a person’s gender identity, background, ethnicity, neurodivergency, none of that into account when reviewing someone’s profile for an interview, even if it’s in the name of adding diversity to the company, and while I agree that I don’t want people to be given unfair advantages due to factors not related to their professional achievements and how good of a fit they are for the job and the company, I also believe that we should try and be more open to giving minorities who apply a chance to prove themselves even if they don’t fit the box as neatly as we wanted to, because we might find ourselves pleasantly surprised.

    What’s the balance here? How should I make sure I’m not letting my implicit bias get in the way of my objective analysis, even if said bias comes from a good place? Also, one thing I do whenever I’m told of a new hire that’s arriving in the company is check out their LinkedIn profile, mostly because I’m curious to see how they look like and have a face to the name. I definitely shouldn’t do that for any of the candidates who apply for this job, right?

    1. HRArwy*

      I don’t have a good answer for this because it’s complicated and bias will always exist and its the tools/strategies we use to limit bias that are important.

      Have you reflected and thought about what kind of biases you have? For example, if all else is equal, would you choose a white cishet gendered male to do the job because you just implicitly “trust” them more? Or is it that they have similar experiences, but some are less prestigious?

      You can always look up candidates, but if your bias is based on what they look like rather than their accomplishments or if how they look impacts how you perceive their accomplishments, then maybe you need to consider not looking them up and interviewing in a different way (no video.)

    2. LKW*

      I’m potentially going to get slammed but gosh darn it I have opinions. Do it. Go look. Satisfy your curiosity.

      First and foremost, and you’ve already said as much, the person has to have the qualifications & experience. If this person meets the need – you don’t have to decide that “best person” is dependent solely on qualifications and experience. You are absolutely allowed to make decisions that you are hiring someone who will bring different perspectives. That in and of itself is a justification to hire diversely. Perspective, approach, experience all matter in a work setting. You can decide that the best person is the person who will potentially shake things up a bit.

    3. Ashley*

      I don’t know UK laws but in the States, you can’t consider someones gender, race, sexual orientation in hiring. Your best bet is to widen the applicant pool by soliciting to groups like the queer group. Also remember not everyone is out at work so you may not know who is queer based on an interview.

    4. Ooh La La*

      I don’t think it’s an unfair advantage to offer an interview to a diverse candidate when you otherwise might not. It’s like very mild affirmative action (presumably you won’t hire them if they’re not the best candidate at the end of the process, you’re just giving them a chance at the first step). Also, everyone has biases (whether conscious or unconscious), and in hiring, that tends to overwhelmingly benefit white men. It’s not as if you are introducing bias into a perfectly neutral hiring process. The bias is already there – you want to put a finger on the scale in the other direction. Personally, I think that’s fine as long as you assess the candidate fairly once they are in the process.

    5. PX*

      Hm. I dont know that I agree with your friend wholeheartedly. When you are explicitly trying to improve diversity, you *do* want to take that into account. I think the general way to approach it is either, if you have 2 equal candidates who meet all the required criteria, then pick the one who adds diversity. Alternatively, make sure your criteria can correct or adapt for the advantages some people may have had.

      I would try and avoid looking up candiates in advance though (attractiveness privilege is a thing!).

    6. Aquawoman*

      I think your idea to look at the “boxes” is a good one. Example: in new-lawyer hiring, one thing people often look at is law journal experience, for a few reasons. But, if someone is, say, working 20 hours a week to put themselves through law school, they don’t really have the extra time needed to do a law journal. So, I think looking at things like that makes sense.

      While I don’t think you can look at a single applicant’s application and consider factors that involve protected classes, you can look at the whole pool selected and if it’s not diverse enough, re-examine your criteria, application process, etc. to figure out and address why.

    7. Artemesia*

      The key to diversity in hiring is casting the net widely and making sure people in unrepresented groups get the word and are encouraged to apply; I would also try to identify at least one well qualified person to include in the final interview pool for each hire. It might be someone who looks well qualified but is perhaps is one of several people who are qualified but might not move on. If they are on the bubble include them. It is easy to value experiences that are more typical of the dominant group in the organization; taking a good look at people who come from a different background but are also qualified is a way to break through that. In making the decision when it is borderline to proceed with someone is where those unconscious biases are most likely to exclude minority candidates.

      1. Hillary*

        I agree 100% here. My employer requires at least one diverse candidate in the finalist group, if we don’t have one that means we haven’t recruited well. Once they make that cutoff diversity will come because they’re often the best candidate (I was the only woman in the candidate pool for my job).

        Also push back on requirements that perpetuate the dominant narrative. In US terms, does this job really require a bachelors degree? Or will an associates plus work experience be enough? Surprise, the latter are often better employees than shiny new grads who haven’t had a job before.

        1. ecnaseener*

          Nitpicky, but: an individual candidate cannot be “diverse.” If you mean a non-white candidate / person of color, say that. Or if you mean any candidate who makes your team more diverse by changing the balance of any number of demographics, you can say “a candidate who adds diversity” or just “a candidate who isn’t a white able-bodied [etc etc] man.”

          I can’t fully explain why this rubs me the wrong way — maybe because it’s too close to “diversity hire” with implications that the person isn’t really qualified, maybe the implication that adding one person of color to your team makes it Diverse(TM). Or maybe it just feels too blatantly like labeling this candidate as Not Like Us.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Yes! It doesn’t make sense — an individual cannot be diverse. A group is diverse. Calling one person “diverse” is also really othering and implies white/cis/straight/abled is the default.

          2. Hillary*

            Good point, thank you. We’ve been using it as a shorthand to say someone who isn’t a white male and we need to do better. I’ll work to do better.

          3. Reba*

            Also because this kind of rule, even if being followed in good faith, doesn’t serve the *candidates* well. Seeing the candidate through that lens exclusively or first isn’t fair to them.

            On Twitter, Gummi Pie recently shared that she accidentally got an email about her sent to her from a recruiting firm. In the email it was clear that they knew there was no chance she was suitable for the job (overqualified), but they wanted to send her over in order to help the client firm tick a “diversity” box. I have to say that was eye-opening to me.

        2. Blackcat*

          “My employer requires at least one diverse candidate in the finalist group, if we don’t have one that means we haven’t recruited well.”
          I’m in a male dominated field (in academia) and it has been 100% clear to both myself and female friends in our field when we’re the “diverse” candidate in the finalist pool. It’s… shitty! In my experience, people didn’t treat me like a serious candidate despite all the prep I did (faculty interviews are 1-2 full days of meetings + a talk, sometimes also a teaching demo). I flew across the country away from my young baby, and they never took me seriously as a candidate. I was just the woman candidate.

          For that reason, I’m against these types of quotas. If you add someone to a short list just because they’re not a white man, you have to make sure that they’re actually taken seriously as a candidate. Otherwise, you’re using them as diversity window dressing to make people feel better about your process.

        3. Emma2*

          There are studies that suggest having one candidate from a minority/underrepresented background in the finalist pool has limited impact but having two can have a more significant impact (the Harvard Business Review has published articles on this). The effect seems to be that while one candidate still looks “different” from what “people in this role” look like, having two finalists from a similar background slightly disrupts that bias in a productive way – it helps to normalise the idea that female/black/other underrepresented group people can be X, and increases the likelihood that candidates from that group will be assessed on their merits and that one of them will be hired.

    8. Anono-me*

      I think that it is important hire the best person for the job without bias. But so is having a workplace (and other places) where everyone has access to opportunities.

      So expanding recruiting tool is huge. You have already started this process.
      (Yeah for you!) Is there any way you could formalize and/or expand it?

      Letting often targeted groups know that your workplace is a safer space will increase the number of your underrepresented applicants. Can you be a more visible happy with the environment presence? (Bonus-This may cause a few @@#$$ to self select out.)

      Considering accomplishments in context is huge. Please be sure to ask questions about the environment that the applicant was striving in. To me a B average while working is more impressive than an A average while studying without working, but an A average while being the unpaid PCA for an ill parent is the most impressive. Many more, under represented group members have accomplishments or contexts for accomplishments not typically considered in the older style of hiring. Looking at the whole picture will give you better qualified people more of whom will also be historically underrepresented.

      Also, most people’s assumptions about me based on my name and appearance are wrong.

    9. OhNo*

      I think it can be good to consider aspects of diversity if there are specific ways they can benefit the work you’re doing. Maybe one of your applicants would bring an important new perspective to your work based on their identity, or maybe they have more experience working with a particular community that your customers come from. But those details should be gleaned from their resume and cover letter, not their demographic data. Even in those cases, though, I don’t think it should ever be the deciding factor. When you make decisions based on identity, there are assumptions inherently in play that can be wrong.

      For example, let’s say you were picking between two people to interview – one queer and one straight – and you picked the queer one to interview for diversity reasons. You’re assuming that they have an inherently queer slant to their perspective, that they’re out at work, that they’re accepting of other diverse identities (not a guarantee, unfortunately)… And sure, you can suss out some of those details during the interview, but it’s important to consider that by making the call based on identity, you denied the opportunity to address those details to the other applicant. Maybe the straight candidate was a gender studies major with a unique and accepting perspective that would’ve really helped your team, but now you’ll never know! Taking these things into consideration, whether as a positive or a negative, always makes some assumptions about how identity affects other aspects of their work.

    10. EarthBound*

      I (a white cis-male) have been approaching the hiring issue by really questioning how we are evaluating people, pushing for more objective measurements for candidates, and pushing back when people push certain candidates forward because they will “fit” the organization better. A lot of times “fitting in” just means they are like everyone else already here.

      1. OceanDiva*

        Another way to avoid bias based on outward appearance of desired demographics is to include an interview question or assessment criteria on a candidates experience in incorporating DEI concepts in their work (esp if your organization has any public stance or statement on this) and how they would bring that perspective into their work for you.

    11. Cascadia*

      These are great questions and it’s awesome you’re thinking about this! First, I recommend checking out some of the great online resources. I found this Toolkit to mitigate bias in recruiting and hiring an awesome resource and have used it a ton: https://theavarnagroup.com/resources/hiring-practice-better-practices/

      There’s actually a lot in the toolkit to do BEFORE you even create a job posting – so a little late in your case, but these are good things to keep in mind for the future. My org has been doing a lot of work on improving our DEI practices in hiring. We now get together as a hiring committee for a position as a group, and watch a video about our implicit biases, and then do some brainstorming on what our individual and group biases are. The key is to do this before you start reviewing applicants or interviewing people – know and acknowledge where you might have biases. For instance, I might have a positive bias towards someone that went to same university that I did. Or someone that has the same career trajectory. We also then discuss as a group the key attributes we want someone to bring to this job, and what do we need in our specific group. There are people that would be totally qualified to do a given job, but perhaps we already have skill areas X and Y covered by current team members, and we really need someone who is bringing skill Z. In one case of hiring we work with partners in a number of different countries, in different languages. We had people on our team who spoke Chinese and Spanish, but we really needed someone who had fluency in Arabic and French. There were lots of people who applied for the job that would be awesome, but they only spoke Chinese/Spanish and that just wasn’t what the team needed at that point in time.

      It’s great to acknowledge your implicit biases, we all have them, and step one towards mitigating them is acknowledging they exist. If you haven’t played around with the implicit bias test, it can be a real eye-opener to where your own biases lie. https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html
      I would also strongly encourage you to not look people up by their photo on linkedin before the interview process. It can only add to your assumptions/biases about people.

    12. Mimi*

      One thing I’ve done is to try to identify things that someone with qualities not well-represented on the existing team might bring that are valuable. Are you interested in someone who can work with people different than them? Are you interested in “soft skills” like organization, communication, coordinating a group, etc? Would you like someone with experience teaching, training, or writing documentation? Could you use someone with experience in making your services more accessible? Ask questions about those things! You won’t necessarily find a candidate who checks all of the boxes, but by explicitly stating that you value things that a marginalized person is more likely to bring to the team, you’re increasing the likelihood of selecting such a person (without discriminating against the demographics that are already well-represented, who could have experience in those things, too).

      I also try to make sure that, to the extent possible, people with a variety of backgrounds participate in the interview process. For example, a woman is more likely to notice that a candidate only talks to the men in the room, or always uses men in examples of learning from but women in examples of teaching to, etc. And then listen to what those people have to say, and if someone has positive or negative feedback that’s an outlier, consider if that person is also an outlier among the demographics of the interviewers. (e.g. if Janine is the only person who found the candidate abrasive, is that Janine being picky, or was the candidate only abrasive _to Janine_?)

    13. Mononoke Hime*

      Depends on the nature of the work, sometimes diversity may even be a requirement as you need to avoid group think fallacy at all cost. For example, an all-male sales team probably won’t come up with good strategies targeting female customers no matter how smart and dedicated they are. Or the infamous racial bias in face recognition AI because it was developed by white men exclusively. In such cases, seeking out and prioritized candidates based on their backgrounds and personal attributes would be totally justified as you need to ensure the team is sufficiently diverse.

      As for checking LinkedIn profiles, you can bring it up with HR (if you have one) and see what they say. Some places have strict hiring procedures and only allow interviewers/hiring managers to work with info in the application package. I don’t personally agree with the practice but it does exist.

    14. LilacLily*

      OP here! Thank you everyone for the advice, the resources, and the words of wisdom. As an addendum that I should’ve added to my original message, my company is in a s city that unfortunately doesn’t see a lot of applicants – we only had four people applying for this job (and one of them I can already tell will not go forward for an interview) and thus our options of what we can do in regards to making sure we have a fairly diverse pool of interviewees are severely limited. But I went through my team leader’s methods of assessing a candidate fairly and objectively, found no issues with it, and now all I need to do is keep what you all said in mind when I perform these assessments myself tomorrow.

      Thank you again, and I’ll be back next Friday with updates :)

  9. Susan Calvin*

    It looks like our hiring stop is finally lifted, and basically our entire backlog of requested headcount is going to be approved in one swoop over the next month! Wish me luck, it’s my first time as hiring manager and I’m SO EXCITED!

    1. Coenobita*

      Congratulations and good luck! Something similar happened at my job and there are SO MANY open positions all of a sudden. (Most roles are posted as internal-only first, so they all come through our inboxes.) There are going to be some tired hiring managers!!

    2. Ama*

      Good luck! I highly recommend Alison’s previous posts on phone interviews and reference checks (just search both those phrases in the search bar on this website) — they really helped me formulate some good questions and also keep the phone interview distinct from an in person interview (which was particularly challenging this year since even the “in person” interviews were on Zoom).

    5. new kid*

      Congrats! I was able to hire my first direct report earlier in the year and I honestly enjoyed the process a lot and the new hire is working out fantastic, though admittedly I had the benefit of working with a recruiter at my org who was able to source an amazing cohort of candidates for me for a pretty niche role. I hope you have the same luck!!

  10. Working mom*

    I quit my job this week. I thought it would feel great – I got a great offer for a place I really wanted to work at for a long time, I’m leaving some toxic coworkers and leadership, and it’s going to be less work for more money. But instead I feel disappointed that the big boss, despite being told several times that he failed to address key issues pertinent to my leaving, thinks I’m just leaving for the money. I am not the first to leave for the reasons I am, and I’m sure I won’t be the last.

    1. EPLawyer*

      What does it matter??? You know why you are leaving. It’s not your circus not your monkeys. It’s not your job to fix the place anymore or get the big boss to see reason.

    2. AppleStan*

      Big Boss doesn’t think that you’re leaving for the money…Big Boss is using that as a convenient excuse. It’s like, “if the money is good enough, she would have stayed despite these issues.”

      It’s just easier for Big Boss to think it’s money so Big Boss doesn’t have to put in the work to fix the issues.

      2. Ooh La La*

        Thirded. I worked at an org where more than half the staff turned over in a matter of months. Leadership was still telling themselves that people were leaving for family reasons, money, dream job that fell into their lap, etc. Anything to avoid having to acknowledge their own failures.

      3. Ama*

        Yeah I have a pretty good relationship with our CEO (who I report to directly) and I’m still pretty sure when I leave she’s going to retain the part where I say I’m leaving because I want to focus on one particular part of my job (that here is about 60% of my duties) and completely gloss over the fact that I have been warning her for years that my workload is unsustainable and that we’re not adding new staff fast enough to counter the growth in new projects.

      4. Donkey Hotey*

        Exactly this. If Big Boss has been told several times and still thinks it’s money… there’s an internet meme that ends “I guess we’ll never know.”

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      This should just confirm to you that you’re making the right decision. Don’t try to get acceptance or approval from your boss, who you already know is incompetent.

    4. HigherEdAdminista*

      As hard as it is, try to remind yourself that people tell themselves stories about other’s motivations and his reasons for telling himself this story have everything to do with him and nothing to do with you.

      If he believes your story, that there are issues with the job, then this creates work for him. He has to fix these issues and acknowledge that they were allowed to grow without oversight. It might mean re-training people, firing people, re-structuring; it could be a big project. However, if he tells himself you left because you wanted more money and you weren’t “tough enough” for the environment… he’s off the hook. He doesn’t have to do any hard work because he doesn’t have a problem; the problem is you. That’s much more pleasant for him to consider!

      Keep reminding yourself that he is doing this for his own reasons and you can’t change the way he thinks. Congrats on the new and better job!

      1. Working mom*

        This seems to be dead on with this particular big boss. Thank you for this perspective!

    5. Dust Bunny*

      This is like trying to find out why somebody dumped you: No answer you get is going to be the one that you want.

      You’re moving on to a better situation. Don’t expect the employer you’re leaving to not try to make himself look and feel better about it.

    6. TWW*

      When I resigned my last job, I made it very clear I was leaving for the money. I even told them my new 35% higher salary, which I didn’t have to do, but I thought it would be useful info for them.

      Yet somehow, the story that spread during my 2-weeks’ notice was that I was leaving for a job closer to home. It’s true my commute went from 45 to 25 minutes, but that was only a minor consideration since I enjoy driving.

      I suspect the boss was trying to save face. He didn’t want to admit that the problem was something he could have addressed, so instead blames a factor beyond his control.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        And it conveniently also avoids spreading the word to others that they too may be undervalued at the company!

    7. RagingADHD*

      Well, it’s not “despite.”

      He doesn’t see the issues as significant, and therefore didn’t address them. So the fact that he doesn’t see or acknowledge them now is perfectly consistent. If other people left before, he’s not going to have some big epiphany over you.

    8. Zenon*

      I hear you — I also recently left a toxic job for a much better one. With my departure, my team hit 100%(!) turnover in the past 18 months. My team was not the only one with 100% turnover. It’s all really obviously caused by an incompetent CTO who joined 2 years ago. CEO’s explanation? I, like all the other people who left, couldn’t handle a “high-performing environment” and “wanted {our} hands held”. This despite the fact that I got promoted a week before I gave notice… Bad leaders will always find an excuse rather than making necessary changes. And luckily that bad leader is no longer your problem!

    9. StressedButOkay*

      When I left my toxic job, I was still emotionally invested in it. It’s hard not to be – you’ve probably put a lot of effort, time and energy into it at this point. It’s normal to feel conflicting emotions when you’re leaving, even if you’re leaving for a much better opportunity and a non-toxic work environment! It’ll take time to realize that it is no longer not your circus, not your monkeys to deal with anymore!

    10. Not So NewReader*

      This thing about the money explanation is an extension of the same problem. He makes errors in judgement, the errors hurt people but he tells himself that he is right. So we have here more of the same pattern. He has decided you are leaving for more money, this makes you feel unheard, and he has decided he is right.

      Mr. Dense will go right to the end believing he is right, no matter how wrong he is. You can’t fix this no more so than you can pick up Mt. Everest and put it down some place else. It’s funny/odd how we don’t worry about not being able to move Everest but we do get snarled up when it comes to people who will not change. Everest isn’t going to change either and life will go on.

      One of my favorite things to tell myself is that those who cannot listen to and take advice from others will eventually experience a lower quality of life. This helps me to come down off the ceiling and start thinking about my own life instead.

    11. JelloStapler*

      I agree on the convenient excuse, because they can’t or won’t address the issues. My workplace has some similarities and many people leaving too.

    12. Nikki*

      Ugh, I feel you on this one!

      I recently left a non-profit job for a corporate position with a 40% pay raise and great benefits. I left my old job because of structural and interpersonal issues that my boss refused to fix. (Think: toxic client who repeatedly called me names, in writing; management refusing to address serious cash flow issues.)

      When I told my boss I was moving on, he told me the new job was “a waste of my potential.” Eye roll.

      It really frustrated me for a week or two, but now I’m a month into the new job and I really love it. Hang in there!

  11. Me*

    Low stakes question. I have a new kinda boss. I report to THE BOSS and new guy is deputy boss.

    He starts his emails to me with my initials. As in in stead of my name, a greeting or even nothing at all, he starts:

    RM,

    And signs it with his name, not initials. This irritates the ever loving snot out of me. It’s just feels so disrespectful. Am I nuts here? Anyway I can say without making waves- hey there new kinda boss, as a human being i’d prefer being addressed by my actual name?

    1. Rainy*

      Does he do it to everyone or just you? If he does it to everyone I’d likely just accept it as a weird personal quirk, like people who sign their emails “stay gold” or “hold the high ground”. If it’s just you, I guess I’d try to find out why.

      1. Me*

        Not really sure because I’m remote. I do know he addresses people outside the organization by their actual name because I’ve been copied on emails.

        1. E*

          I’ve encountered people who do this, and they never do it to people outside the organisation because one must be on Good Behaviour with them.

          Since he’s new, you have an opportunity to nip it on the bud. Maybe even make it a bit jokey, with “Nobody’s ever nicknamed me RM before. On reflection, I’ve decided I prefer to stay Rachel. Chat soon!”

          1. Joan Rivers*

            Maybe it’s for brevity, and his signature is automatic, he doesn’t type it.
            I’d try not to take offense.

    2. Imaginary Number*

      My first guess would be it’s a lazy tactic to get around asking people how they want to be addressed, especially if you have a lot of folks in your workplace whose names don’t always go by Firstname-Lastname construction.

      1. Ashley*

        Or remembering how to spell everyone’s name though it often pops up when you type in their email. Really try to frame this in your head this is their weird quirk.

    3. Susan Calvin*

      That’s so weird! I’d try to find out if he does that with everyone, because it would probably help me reframe it as harmless idiosyncrasy if I had to, but you can definitely state a preference without making it weird or confrontational!

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      This is a thing that some people do. It might have been the culture at his old place – did he have a lot more reports there?

      I know when I do meeting minutes and assign action items, or notate them in my project planning tool, I often just use initials. But I use them for myself too, so it’s pretty clearly not a hierarchy thing.

      1. SomebodyElse*

        I think it’s different to use initials for uses like yours and is essentially shorthand. But you wouldn’t start calling people by their initials in conversations or greetings would you?

      2. Me*

        No he had less reports.

        Initials for all the reasons you listed is fine and normal and wouldn’t phase. Actually addressing a person in an email by initials…there’s no reason. You’re emailing me directly you don’t even have to address me at all!

      3. Sparkles McFadden*

        I’d say let him know you don’t like it. I’d say it in person. How he reacts will tell you a lot about him. If you don;t say something, it’ll rankle you forever.

        I had a few bosses who did this and it never much bothered me. But…I’m kinda weird too as I always authored documentation as first initial-last name (smcfadden). I think this was a hold over from hiding my female first name in a male dominated area.

    5. SomebodyElse*

      I’m pretty militant on use of my name. I have one that people like to shorten. So here’s how I deal with it, and this goes for everyone, personal or professional.

      “Hey Jess- I need that TPS report”
      “Jessica please- Sure I’ll get that for you”

      Next time it happens
      “Jess- Can you get someone to sort those paperclips?”
      “It’s Jessica- yes I will do that”

      The very rare time it’s ever gotten to a third time:
      “How was your weekend, Jess”
      “My name is not Jess it is Jessica, I won’t be responding to Jess after this point. My weekend was great”

      This is a classic boundary issue for me and is a hot button. So I’m pleasant the first time and serious the second time. Like I said it’s only gotten to #3 a couple of times in my life and I have absolutely no qualms about following up on the ignoring anything that comes with a name that is not mine. I have absolutely turned my back and walked away from people to who have continued to call me the incorrect name.

      1. Dog Coordinator*

        This! Politely but firmly correct them. I also have an easy to shorten name, but only go by my nickname when I have known folks for a while, and no one calls me by my first initial (since that is actually what my mom goes by, we have the same first initial). Granted, I was in the managing position when this happened, but similar to SomebodyElse, just correct it as you see it.

        My example: (Using the name Meghan here)

        Freelance employee who has never met me: Hi M! [blah blah email]
        Me: My name is Meghan, please do not refer to me as M. [I think I also pointed out that we had never met before and it was not appropriate to assume he could shorten my name]

    6. Sunflower*

      I frankly think you should let this go. I’ve had people do this before, and seeing if they do it with everyone really just doesn’t matter and feels like you’re trying to find a way to make it about something, when it’s really not.

    7. I should really pick a name*

      Just mention that you prefer to be addressed by your name instead of your initials. You can say something like that without making a big deal about it.

    8. Artemesia*

      Does he do it in person as well as emails — if emails — I would not find it a big deal and would ignore it. Fussing about it just seems petty. If he calls you by your name in person, fine — if he does the initial thing then , say something. Maybe I am less sensitive to it as I often sign emails with my initials although I always use and expect people to use my name in personal interactions.

    9. Mr Inititals*

      Does he manage multiple people with the same first name? At my company multiple clusters of first names, including 3 people who share mine, plus my last name is hard for English speakers to pronounce. I’m normally addressed by my initials in emails and in person.

      It get’s really interesting when there are three Johns (and two with the same initials) with 3 different responsibilities on the same email string…

      1. Me*

        That would make a lot of sense but alas nope. All unique names, none difficult to spell pronounce.

    10. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      This doesn’t make it right, but might he find either your first or last name difficult to spell correctly consistently and is trying to avoid insulting you by getting it wrong?

      My last name seems to invite misspellings and it’s been abbreviated in the past under such logic. Again, not right, just offering a possible benign explanation.

      1. Me*

        My name is pretty plain jane.

        But honestly I think I feel better knowing other people also think its weird.

        1. the cat's pajamas*

          I agree it’s weird!

          We use initials at work, but only in documentation and sometimes the body of emails, like with a list of action items from a meeting so it’s shorter, but still call people by names in person and in the email salutation.

    11. Donkey Hotey*

      I mean, I get it. My name is Donkey, not D, not Don, and certainly not the Shrek-inflected “DON-keh!” There are some folks who will hear the push back of “I prefer Donkey” and there are some who will never get it. (See also, my current CFO, also named Donkey, but since he prefers Don, I am Don, too.)
      It’s a hill. Death is optional.

      1. Me*

        So true. I have a lot of capital but I’m definitely not interested in wasting any of it on this guy and his obnoxious quirk.

    13. Seeking Second Childhood*

      If those really are your initials and you choose to go the light-hearted route, you could mention the name’s taken by a South Korean rapper (from BTS).

    14. Cascadia*

      My old boss used to do this too. I think she thought it was faster. She did it for all three of her direct reports. She didn’t do it in every email, only some, I think when she felt rushed. I did it right back to her, and she never said anything. Just viewed it as a quirk! She was very quirky in many ways…

    15. Brent*

      This is the culture in my old workplace. In e-mails, meeting minutes, anything written, we use people’s initials (we have at least 3 in my country, usually 4, so there’s a very low probability of people sharing initials). In emails it’s fairly normal to use your nickname in closing but the initials for the recipient.

      Maybe your boss came from a similar workplace.

      1. Data protection*

        We have a weird convention at work, with the idea that using initials somehow maintains privacy. So in a message saying that Rachel is out sick, I have to report to multiple people that RT is out sick. Coverage is essential in our line of work. The idea is that various people only need to know we are short and only my boss will recognise RT is Rachel?!!!

  12. It's bananas*

    When I try to move around people in the office, they just stand there and don’t move out of the way. The office is very tiny so it’s difficult to move around people. I’ll say “Excuse me”, but some *still* don’t move.

    One time my backside touched someone, which I felt bad about, but it actually got them to move! 

    Any advice? I think it’s rude of them, but maybe they’re just not paying attention.

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      I try to add something about trying to get through. Where I live, “excuse me” sometimes means that you didn’t hear something, & I’ve seen confusion over that. How about, “Can I get through?”

      I’m a physically small person, & sometimes people don’t realize that there’s still mass involved. I can’t walk through you!

    2. Lady Lynn Waterton of Bellashire*

      Stand your ground! Depending on your volume, you could maybe try saying it louder, or saying “Oh, I can’t get through”. I also think that (maybe not in a pandemic), it’s okay to put a hand on a shoulder/arm and gently give some pressure as you do to get through…but know thy office…that may be super weird.

    3. Pippa K*

      In similar situations if a polite ‘excuse me’ doesn’t work, I entertain myself by imagining them as horses in a barn or at a gate. I make the ‘pay-attention’ clucking noise and say ‘get over, old girl’ – but only in my mind! This has no effect on them but amuses me so I’m less annoyed.

      1. Chestnut Mare*

        I just realized that I cluck at everyone. I’ve had horses my whole life and it’s instinctual.

    4. ThatGirl*

      I usually say “excuse me/scuse me” WHILE I’m moving through a group – obviously people have gotten used to being farther apart In These Times, but if covid’s not a concern, I’m just gonna keep moving, and if I accidentally brush against someone, oh well.

    5. insertusernamehere*

      You could walk around singing that Ludacris song… move out of the way bi…. that will get the point across!

      But yeah, that is annoying. I think people are just oblivious. Maybe you could try walking through the space assertively/purposefully, and then say something like a biker, “Coming through…. on your left” – or like a server “Right behind!” or “Corner!” – like they do to let others know they are in close proximity of another person so they don’t run into each other.

    6. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Announce where you’re going.

      “Hey, I need to get to the copier.” “Bob, you’re blocking the teapot polisher.”

      Now it’s not just you getting into their personal space, it’s you doing your job. That might penetrate into their brains.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I get a lot of use out of the sentence, “I don’t want to bump you.” They usually see the problem and move.

    7. Tek5508*

      after the first “excuse me”, try a louder “Excuse me, I need to get by, please”

    8. TWW*

      People don’t always know what “excuse me” means. It’s one of those phrases that you say to be polite that usually doesn’t typically require a specific response. It would be like walking up behind someone and saying, “sorry,” and expecting them to make room for you.

      I like to be explicit (and even wordy) in saying what I need, “Hello, Bob, I just need to get by behind you. Thank you!”

    9. Double A*

      This is such a small thing, but I find “Pardon me” works better. (And maybe, “Pardon me, I need to get by” because a lot of times people are in their own heads and take a moment to process what you’re asking). For some reason it’s just too easy to put a little stank on “Excuse me” and have it come out rude or impatient or snarky, and then people are defensive or trying to figure out what they’re doing wrong.

    10. Donkey Hotey*

      As polite as we all like to think people are, “Excuse me” can get drowned out, in part because it’s used for things besides “get out of the way.” Comments I’ve found to work are:
      – “Hey, [NAME]?” (Gets their attention, they turn to you, and hopefully recognize they’re blocking the way.)
      – “Don’t stop now!” (Sounding like a cartoon adventurer or Hunter S Thompson, your choice)
      Then again, prior Navy training means that “Make a hole!” is a viable option, too.

    11. RagingADHD*

      I understand not wanting to touch/brush up against people because you don’t want to. But why would you feel bad about it?

      You didn’t do anything harmful to them. If they cared, they’d pay attention and get out of the way.

    12. Slipping The Leash*

      I had a (great) boss who used to just holler “Hot stuff coming through!” (he had done a lot of restaurant work when he was young) and a path would just sort of clear. Probably wouldn’t work in most offices.

    13. Leems*

      I realized we have a regional variation here in the upper midwest (or at least the Twin Cities) that works a treat: “Ope”– “Ope, gonna squeeze right past ya”. It works when you both go for the same door at once, etc. Not sure if it works anywhere but here though.

    14. Ramona Q*

      Are you sure they can hear you? And what do they do when they need to move around people?

      1. the cat's pajamas*

        I had a similar but opposite problem at OldJob. We were in an open floor plan, nobody had been at my desk for a while before I was hired, and it became the “cut through path”. People would bump into the back of my chair while I was sitting in it! There was plenty of space to go around.. ugh. I used to purposely leave my chair pulled out a little further than when I was sitting in it, so I could retrain people to go around it when I was away from my desk. It didn’t fully work, but most people got retrained after a while.

  13. Building a Teaching Career*

    I enjoy the industry I work in (construction), but I’m not sure if I want to keep on my current path all the way through retirement (which is many years away). There’s only so much upward mobility without going to work for a huge company or starting your own company. I currently work for a small company, which I prefer.

    My question is for anyone who’s ever transitioned into teaching. Later on down the line, I think I would be a good teacher at a college/university level. I don’t have a master’s degree, but it’s my understanding that sometimes people can transition into a teaching position if they have many years of experience in their specialized field. For example, I had several instructors at my university that were practicing or retired architects.

    Anyone have advice or personal experience to pull from? Thanks so much!

    1. merope*

      As a person currently working in academia, where practical field experience can sometimes replace academic degrees, you should only consider this career change if the following things are true:

      1) you are sure that you genuinely enjoy and will be proficient at teaching. This will require you to adapt to many different kinds of students as well as perform your job within the parameters set by your employer, whatever those may be.

      2) you think you will be able to live on a salary of less than $30,000 annually, with significant stress on an annual basis as to whether or not you will have any employment for the coming academic year. My experience has been that technical teaching positions (that is, those where work experience takes the place of academic degrees) are generally contingent labour. Employees are hired (and non-renewed) on an as-needed basis, usually for individual courses. The pay per course ranges from $2000 to $5000 per semester and does not include benefits. Unless the school specializes in this kind of technical teaching, they are extremely unlikely to hire full-time tenured staff for these courses. Additionally, you will nearly always be beaten out in the first round of application review by the many many people who do have a master’s or doctoral degree in or adjacent to the subject you want to teach.

      If you are interested in teaching these subjects, why not consider high school? Those are more likely to be full-time positions, no higher level degree is required, and they also have exceptions from the teaching degree requirement for individuals with practical work experience.

      1. The Rural Juror*

        The instructors I can remember taught part-time and still had active practices or retirement, so I figure it would never be an income I could solely rely on. I live in a city with a high cost of living, but luckily one where there are quite a few options for higher education. I think a technical school or community college would make sense. For example, I would probably do well teaching hand drafting and computer-aided drafting.

        Thanks for your input! It’s definitely a thought for the not-so-near future!

    2. Alexis Rosay*

      It’s important to keep in mind that there aren’t many positions that are truly ‘teaching college’; teaching is often a requirement college professors deal with so they can pursue their true passion, research. Teaching-focused positions are often paid per course with no benefits.

      Teaching in a public school gets a bad rap salary-wise, but this varies GREATLY with location. In my district, which is liberal with strong unions and a high COL, a mid-career teacher can easily make $70-90k. In other districts, it can be half or a third of that.

      1. Well...*

        Liberal arts colleges are teaching-focused, and those jobs are on average less competitive than research positions. They are still, however, incredibly competitive and require some research experience and output, though research is a lower priority than teaching. Also see Cal State schools and their ilk. Many state schools below R1 or R2 won’t see much research engagement from a lot of their faculty.

        Anyways neither sound useful for OP, since these positions require terminal degrees. For OP I’d recommend part-time work and keeping a day job. Adjuncting has very little hope of career advancement, and it’s difficult to cobble together a full-time income from that work.

    3. Nesprin*

      I hate to crush your dreams… but I don’t think you’ll have much success with teaching as a growth career. Most professors these days are adjuncts, who get paid peanuts and lack stability in their careers- getting a stable tenure track position is incredibly difficult unless you’re in a really rare discipline. Tenure track application packages require multiple essays and recommendations, including documentation of experience teaching diverse populations and suchlike. Teaching at a college/university tends to require advanced degrees, with a couple of exceptions for community college vocational programs such as automotive and shop. Getting approved to teach in a slightly different discipline required an equivalency application for me, and I’ve got the doctorate to make things easier.

    4. talos*

      Look into the concept of “professor of practice”. I had a couple of those when I was getting my CS degree. At my university it seems to have been basically a teaching-faculty position with less career opportunity and only needing a BS plus experience; there were a couple we had for years and years so it seems like employment isn’t too unstable.

    5. Ashley*

      I know many people will transition from parts of construction to code enforcement. Gets them out of the field but uses all the industry knowledge. Locally third party code enforcement is big but the places that do it in house always struggle for staffing

    6. OneTwoThree*

      I have no idea how easy this would be to get into, what the pay is, etc.

      However, what about teaching at a trade school or the certification classes for a construction union?

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        This is what I was going to suggest — a mechanical&technical trade school. Some areas have darned good high school level and community college level.
        Also look into compliance and listing — town buildings departments for local, but also NFPA, UL/ULC, etc. And appraisals for real estate or insurance companies.

    7. AcademiaNut*

      I would say that at best, you might get an occasional single semester teaching gig that pays a stipend. This is what adjunct positions were originally supposed to be for – hiring a professional to teach an occasional course with a small monetary stipend to cover the effort – but they’ve morphed into a way to exploit PhDs who hope to get a more stable job in the field. I would not expect to be able to get any sort of dependable or regular work.

      I would say that teaching CAD or similar things at a university without a graduate degree is extremely unlikely. And trade schools/colleges are going to be hiring their own staff to teach stuff like that, so you’ll be competing with a flood of PhDs for what positions are available. My understanding is that an architect has professional certifications, which is a bit different than more generalized teaching. And the academic teaching market is getting more competitive and poorer paid with time.

      If you’re interested in teaching, you might have better luck striking out on your own – teaching small classes or one on one tutoring for things like drafting and CAD, for people who want to pick up a skill outside of the usual system, or for refresher courses for people who haven’t used their skills in in a while. Go for cheaper and more flexible than university programs. I second the high school recommendation as well – you’d need to do your research about requirements and job opportunities in your area, though.

      I would also not recommend getting an online Masters’ to tick a box on job applications – in academia, where you get your graduate degree matters a lot, and online programs are not generally competitive, reputation wise.

    8. Anon rural higher ed*

      I teach in a science department at a mostly undergraduate university that is in a small town. We sometimes hire local people to teach because it is difficult to get anyone to move here for a non-tenure-track job. We have permanent full time faculty who are lecturers (teaching, some university service responsibilities, no research requirements). We may have professors of practice in other departments/colleges within the university. Strong applicants for our lecturer positions tend to have teaching experience.

      So it sounds like a place like us may have the job you would be interested in. There are a couple of downsides: even though we are fairly remote and not too choosy, we almost never hire people without terminal degrees for tenure-track positions. There are simply too many people with PhDs (or with a Master’s degree if that’s the terminal degree in the field) for folks without those degrees to be competitive for tenure-track positions. Our non-tenure-track positions come with starting salaries that are around 20% lower than tenure-track positions, and with a lower ceiling for salaries for long-term faculty. In some departments lecturers are seen as (and treated as) equal members of the department when important decisions are made, but in other departments that is probably not the case.

      My advice: you mentioned that there are a lot of higher ed institutions around you. Find ones that already have a few people in positions like the one you have in mind. Try to get work on the side as an adjunct in one of those places. This will give you teaching experience and a chance to find out how you like the work. If you do a good job and are a reliable backup option for them for a few semesters, you will have a much better shot if the kind of job you want does come open. If you find a different university to apply to down the road, you will be able to get references from colleagues who can talk about your teaching experience and your quality as a teacher.

  14. Government Worker*

    Just an FYI to anyone who is interviewing for a position with a governmental agency, probably best if you don’t end your interview with “Well, I am suing [same governmental agency] over my termination from another department.”

    I really, really, really, really, really hate interviewing.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Also “My biggest weakness is I never stop talking, like my previous bosses constantly had to tell me to stop talking and get back to work because I’m a chatterbox and I love to socialize and…. [6. Hours. Later.] So yeah! That’s my biggest weakness!”

      I was scared to ask her any questions because I couldn’t face an actual six hour interview.

    5. ampersand*

      Yes. It is amazing what people will say during interviews! Sometimes it’s a gift, and you appreciate the person telling you something that allows you to dodge a bullet and not hire them. Other times it just makes you wish you never had to interview anyone ever again. Sometimes both.

    7. Mockingjay*

      To be fair, it could have been a wrongful termination. Since they brought it up, I would assume that they wanted to get that info out before you called for references.

      How did you feel about them as a viable candidate up to that point?

      1. SnappinTerrapin*

        Then again, they may want to claim your agency “retaliated” against them for asserting their rights in litigation against the other agency.

        If so, the best advice I can think of is to clearly document the qualification differences among the candidates considered, so you can demonstrate that the selectee would have been chosen even if this candidate had not volunteered the information you preferred not to know.

      2. JP*

        It probably was a wrongful termination. That kind of thing happens a lot.

        Weird that the agency set up an interview with someone they’re in a lawsuit with.

        1. Government Worker*

          Think of it like US Department of Interior interviewing someone that worked at US Department of Treasury. No lawsuit filed yet, and we don’t do reference checks until after interviews are done. So no way to know without candidate mentioning it to us.

      3. Government Worker*

        Candidate wasn’t phenomenal but wasn’t horrific either.

        I’m basically trying to ignore that I ever heard that comment. Somewhere in the middle of the interview, Candidate originally stated they had been terminated by that Agency, which in and of itself, is not necessarily indicative of anything, it happens. We moved on and at the end, Candidate brought up the termination again, and then mentioned the suit. I stated I wouldn’t ask any further questions because, you know, litigation! We then wrapped up the interview.

        You never know the circumstances…Candidate could be 100% in the right, 100% in the wrong, somewhere in between. Heck, sometimes Candidate could have done “the right thing,” but because it’s against protocol…termination. It’s government. You just never know.

    9. Pickled Limes*

      During one recruitment for a government position, I was sorting through applications to decide who was going to make the interview list, and one of those applications was a DOOZY.

      For every job he listed, the reason for leaving he gave was not the sanitized versions we talk about here. They were the full overshare version. He left one job because he got into a physical altercation with a coworker. He left another job because he worked for his girlfriend’s parents and the relationship ended badly. One job he left because his boss assigned him to work weekends and he didn’t want to (spoiler alert: the job he was applying to at my org required working weekends), and the way he phrased it included some language about violating his right to have a personal life. And for every job on the list, he checked the no box for “may we contact this employer?” box.

      He did not make it to the interview pile.

      1. Robin Ellacott*

        Wow, that must have been entertaining. Nice when they attach the red flags right to the resume!

    10. Djuna*

      Not government, but my forever fave is the guy we asked to “Tell us about a time when you had conflict with a co-worker. How did you resolve it?”

      He overshared in the extreme, and ended with a gleeful, “Well, everyone thinks she was a b*tch anyway, so.” and a shrug. For the life of me I can’t remember what the co-worker was supposed to have done, but I’ll never forget that this dude said those words in an interview.

    11. StellaBella*

      Sadly I made a guy cry once in am interview.

      He had his phone on amd I asked twice that he turn it off to focus on the interview.

      He did not. Third text I asked if it was an emergency or if he needed a break …. Nope …. Just checking in with his friend on interview progress. I was 4th of 6th interview he had with us. He did not make it to 5th as I ended the interviews after this nonsense. He got really upset. It was ridiculous.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        What? Like, he was texting his friend about the interview *as* he was interviewing? Live-tweeting it? Did he do this on the previous interviews or just decided to go for it in this one? I just can’t imagine that mindset where you directly telling him to put down the phone and him not doing it would end any way other than badly.

    12. Eden*

      Had a real whoozy of an interview earlier last week! During the candidate’s time to ask me questions, they like… analyzed my answers and explained their reactions to those answers. E.g. one question was “I mentioned I was interested in your company because of the good things I’d heard of X, but are those things?”, which is already slightly off-putting… I answered saying what I liked about X and the candidate replied something like, “thanks, I mean I know you’re an interviewer and have to represent your company and can’t like insult them, but that gives me a reasonable amount of confidence”. Uh, thanks for saying you think I’m probably not lying? Just really felt like they kept telling me things that should have stayed in their head or been said to a friend.

  15. StillWaiting*

    It’s been over 3 weeks since I finished a lengthy internal interview process and no decision yet. I’m having a tough time putting it out of my mind since it impacts my work. I’m hoping that I’ll find out soon – I really want the role, but at this point, I just want to know what’s going on. Any tips?

    1. LadyK*

      I’m in a similar boat. I’ve had the phone screen and the panel interview for an internal position. I’m waiting to hear if I got to the 3rd round. This job would be life changing in both money, title and location so I feel like I’m in a holding pattern. Add to it that I’m working in a new department that’s a hot mess so my focus is pulled in 100 directions. Personally, I’m not making any huge decisions about my personal or professional life until I hear but am trying to focus on the job at hand so it doesn’t get out of control.

      Have you reached out to the hiring manager or HR or whomever your contact is? I’m sending an email today about mine as it’s been almost 2 weeks (not unheard of here, especially with the role but still longer than I was told about the timeline).

      1. StillWaiting*

        Thanks for letting me know you feel like you’re in a holding pattern. That’s exactly how I feel and I haven’t been able to describe it! It’s so frustrating. I have followed up. Trying to stay optimistic but it’s challenging.

        1. LadyK*

          I feel ya there. My HR contact is out until Tuesday so it’ll be a few more days until I hopefully hear something. This opportunity came out of nowhere but it was one of those jobs that you can’t just let slip by. It would speed up my relocation plans to like now instead of a year or 2 but for what the opportunity is, I’m ready for it. As for trying to stay optimistic, I know that’s hard, especially when it’s something that is perfect or close to perfect for you. I’m lucky in the fact that I’m still employed and don’t have to worry (too much) about bills because I know how much it stinks to be unemployed or under employed waiting to hear back.

          For me, my normal role hasn’t had work in over a year so I’ve been in several different departments helping with their work. I’m using it as an opportunity to figure out what I can live with, what I can’t, the kind of management style I work best with, the kind of management style I have, etc. so I can apply that to my current job, this possible new one, any new ones or even my old department if I’m able to get back to it. And even though I feel this job is a perfect fit for me and the company, if they choose differently, I know I’ve done what I could to get the role.

      2. PeggyOlsen*

        I started a new job several months ago and overall it’s been great. I started the same day as another team member and the transition to this role hasn’t been as smooth for her as it has for me. But I’ve had some struggles, mainly resetting my norms from a toxic workplace.

        My issue is that she is constantly comparing herself to me, outloud in group settings. She calls herself an idiot and says she isn’t as smart as me. She said that she tells her husband all the time that I’m better at this than she is. These comments are always made in team meetings and it creates awkward silences and just makes me want to crawl out of Zoom range. How do I address this? I am so tired of her comparing us.

        1. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

          Can you take her aside and let her know that this is bothering you? “You appear to think that I’m some kind of superhero, and I just want you to know that I’m not, that I have my own struggles. I just don’t talk about them in team meetings. I’m not saying you should do that necessarily, but I’d appreciate it if you’d stop comparing yourself to me. We’re different people and have different approaches to our work.”

    2. Dog Coordinator*

      No tips, only sympathy! I interviewed for the closest thing I’ve found to a “dream job” at a company I love in October, kept in touch through the winter, did another interview in April, and despite a few back and forth emails, the company STILL doesn’t have a timeline on when they will fill the roll. It has been really hard to put them out of my mind, and both continue to job hunt for jobs that I like (and would pay) significantly less, and to keep up my workload at my current toxic job.

      If they didn’t provide a timeline, it’s more than ok to email and ask them when you can expect an update on the position. That might help!

  16. Soon to be free*

    After four miserable years, I’m giving notice at my toxic job on Tuesday. I’m ecstatic! Plan is to take a month or two totally off to rest and recover, then start looking for my next step.

    Would love advice from others who have quit without something lined up, especially on how you managed the financial and job seeking aspects (like how to explain time not working).

    I have enough money saved up to live pretty well without income for 6 months and to live frugally for another 6 if I need to, but trying to figure out how I should approach budgeting/managing my money with nothing coming in. I was thinking about moving my savings to a separate, harder to touch account and then “paying” myself on a regular schedule. Smart? Overkill?

    Also, for those who have left a bad burnout situation – any tips on what helped recover? It’s been so long since I was able to enjoy myself, I now find myself not knowing what to do with free time even when I have it.

    1. The Rural Juror*

      I was in a similar situation – left a TOXIC job after 4 years. I had a month off of traveling to see family and decompressing. It was heaven! I’m glad you’ve decided to take that time for yourself. You need to reset.

      What I remember about that time was being able to do things during the day that I normally couldn’t do. I spent about a week visiting family in another state, then came back and was surprisingly active for 3 weeks. I went hiking at noon on a Monday, took yoga classes at 10am when they were less crowded, and went to the movies by myself a couple of a times during a matinee. I know it won’t be as easy to do some of those things since we’re still in the pandemic, but hopefully there are some things to you can take advantage of the time with.

      GOOD LUCK! And enjoy the rest :)

    2. ratatatcat*

      No specific advice but I’m also planning on doing the ‘pay yourself’ thing for my Master’s next year and I’d love to hear if it worked for other people. For myself, I figure it’ll ‘feel’ like a salary still, and I’m usually pretty reluctant to take anything from my savings account so I hope it’ll keep me disciplined.

      1. MissGirl*

        I did it with my masters. I had all my savings in an online account so it wasn’t easily accessible. Every two weeks I transferred my budgeted amount out. It got me in a really good habit for after school. Now every two weeks I move all my money out of my checking into various buckets except for my budgeted amount.

    3. Currently Free*

      Congratulations! I did the same thing in February, nothing lined up. Totally burned out, toxic boss, company responded abhorrently to COVID, etc. My best advice is to take the first FULL MONTH off from even thinking about work. No career podcasts, no job searches, don’t log on to LinkedIn… maybe even don’t come here… Just do whatever your body and mind tell you to do. For me, COVID was still raging and I wasn’t vaccinated, so I did indoor hobbies and watched a lot of Netflix. After a month, reevaluate if you’re ready to consider thinking about work. It probably took me a full 2 months to recover and start feeling somewhat excited about working again.

      Also, try to find a friend or family member who can reinforce that you made the right decision. I’ve had moments of “I’m a total idiot, why did I do this??” but then my partner reminds me that it was a horrible work situation and I was crying literally every day, and staying in that situation was actually not even an option.

      About explaining the time off in interviews… I haven’t had too many issues. I’ve used variations of “I’m looking for a company that responded well to the pandemic” and “this past year put into sharp focus what kinds of values and culture I’m looking for.” Both of which are absolutely true.

      You’re doing the right thing, good luck, and congrats!

    4. Burnt eggs*

      I would go with the pay yourself plan, and live as frugally as you can after the first month.

      In the first month tho, don’t go nuts spending, but treat yourself – massage, short trip, something you wouldn’t normally do.

      Then also, do a top to bottom clean- not for everyone, but I find my headspace is calmer when everything is where it belongs. Or go through and make a list of small projects, clean up old computer and paper files, finish that house inventory for insurance, put pictures in an album. Something where you can literally see what you have accomplished. And just as we set employment goals, set some sabbatical goals for what you want to have accomplished.

      For me, it took about 2 months to fully get old job out of my head; there may or may not have been a ceremonial burning of company branded items.

    5. JRR*

      For explaining my employment gap, my official explanation is “after taking time off to care for a family member, I’m excited to return to my profession.”

      That is 100% BS, but also not something I was ever asked to explain or prove, and I would not want to work for a company that asked for more details.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        It’s not BS to me. *YOU* are a member of your family and YOU needed care

    6. Juniper*

      You already have some great suggestions for what to do with your newfound freedom. One thing that I underestimated when I went through the same thing was the mental toll it had taken on me. Looking back, I would have tried to address the psychological aspect earlier on. I was so excited to just be out that I felt like Julie Andrews walking over the Alps and at the time that felt like enough. But recovering from burnout isn’t just about resting, it’s about undoing the damage that a toxic situations inflicts on both your psyche and body. For a long time afterward I had a hard time multi-tasking, making decisions, trusting myself, and even getting my digestion back to normal. I would recommend that you talk to a therapist so a professional can help guide you through the process.
      Finally, congratulations! I’m genuinely thrilled for you and I hope you get to do a ton of fun and relaxing stuff over the next months.

    7. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Similar boat, left a toxic job last year. To recover from burnout (it’s an ongoing process), I’ll add to what others have suggested:

      *Therapy
      If you can afford it; I was in therapy prior to quitting and have continued. It’s been helpful to have someone talk through this with me.

      *Give yourself grace to feel terrible or glad or whatever
      I imagine this is like purging your body of a poison. I definitely have days when I feel crummy and gross, doubting whether leaving was the right choice. I let myself feel that way, instead of thinking “I *should* feel great because I’m out of that situation.” As I heard recently, our brain is INSIDE our body, so “mental health” is really just “health.”

      *Volunteer
      At some point, I wanted to try to be productive, but for short-term commitments, so I’ve been trying to volunteer. This may be risky, though, since I get rejected more than I’m selected (it’s a competitive volunteer process I’m trying) and that’s not a great feeling.

    8. Hillary*

      I wasn’t expecting the absolute exhaustion when I quit my last job. That was without something lined up, but I ended up getting an offer during my notice period and I took two weeks in between. My first week off I basically just slept and watched tv. Every emotion I’d suppressed came roaring back and processing them took all my energy. It was a complete messy rollercoaster.

      One piece of advice – when you’re ready to go back, start thinking about potential triggers. For me getting called to the boss’s office was a huge trigger for a while, I had to repeat to myself the mantra “he just wants excel help” every time for a year. He really did just want excel help, but the boss before him had been a jerk.

    9. Mill Miker*

      Are you in a field that lends itself to freelancing/consulting?
      When I quit without something lined up, my plan was to freelance. I was actually too burned-out to succeed at that (I did have enough money saved though), but “I was giving freelancing a shot” covered the gap nicely, even though I never really got any work that way. Although, that actually made it a bit easier to calm any worries that I might take off again as soon as I had recouped some savings.

    10. StressedButOkay*

      My one suggestion is that once you get back to job hunting, set up a routine – get up by a certain time during the weekdays, job search during set blocks, etc. The problem that can come with not having something about recovering from burnout is just the days blend together and it can be really, really hard to find the motivation sometimes!

    11. Mrs. Bond*

      I was in a a situation like that about 10 years ago. It was an extremely toxic situation and I was under a lot of stress. I also had a baby to look after and was trying to juggle this work situation with taking care of him. I was lucky to get a severance package so I was okay for money for awhile but not very confident about what I was going to do next or how long that money would last. I didn’t have a very firm strategy about using the savings … we tried to live on what my husband was earning and dipped into savings only as needed.

      I remember needing about 3 weeks to just mentally recover. My mom and my husband were also quite involved in what I was going through and managing their feelings about the situation added to the stress. For the first 3-4 weeks I just spent time with my baby and did nothing much else. We went for walks or hung out in the back yard.

      Around that time some freelance work came my way (via the person who had my toxic job before me!) and I was eventually able to make that into a full-time thing. But that’s a whole other story :)

    12. ronda*

      I retired early and follow some of those blogs. Some of the things lots of people do:

      Some kind of exercise… I joined the Y, other people do hiking or biking or surfing, etc
      Feeding yourself .. I am a restaurant person, but many people take up a cooking thing… making bread, whatever their eating/ cooking goals are.
      Volunteering – I did AARP tax aid this year.. nice cause it has a defined timeframe, Feb to April 15. I am now a volunteer at an animal sanctuary, but just got signed up so we will have to see how it goes.
      Building something – a garage, a garden, knitting a scarf, etc
      Travel – you can take a really long trip when you are not employed.
      (travel is also an explanation people might give in an interview — “I took a sabbatical to travel.” Some folks say you should add something about what you learned traveling, but I say only if you really want to, most people should understand that sometimes you want a long travel window)
      Learning – take some kind of class. pottery, finance, etc, whatever strikes you as something that might be fun.

      I find for me it is important to have some appointments and the gym does that for me…. but not too many appointments !! Don’t want to be too busy.

      I saw this mentioned on a early retirement blog. I have not tried it, but if it sound good to you, maybe you will:

      “My favorite method was created by Ernie Zelinski, author of several early-retirement lifestyle books. He named the technique the “Get-A-Life-Tree. ” Don’t be alarmed by the hokey name – it’s just a structured process to help you brainstorm activities. Activities lead to interests. Interests lead to passions. ”
      from the livingafi website. March 9 2015 post. (should come up in a google of get a life tree)
      the site gives an example of this

      2. Joan Rivers*

        This may sound pathetic to some, but I started out poor and still am frugal.
        SO, when you need to shop, as opposed to when you’re outdoors, enjoying nature, etc., you can find a lot for little at garage sales, consignment shops, and a dollar store.
        A good dollar store can have $1:
        aloe gel / rich lotion including “diabetic” lotion
        antacid / Ibuprofen / antihistamines
        kitchen tools
        greeting cards / charming gift bags
        brand name condiments and other food
        socks
        &
        I’ve found cute scarves mixed in w/ugly ones.
        Plus lots of other household stuff. So I’m not saying buy junk, but you’d be surprised what you can find. Including name brands.
        I use their drugs, etc., after reading the ingredients. For $20 I can buy way more than I would at the drugstore.
        I’ve gotten compliments on a $1 scarf that went well w/a consignment shop Eileen Fisher coat. 1/3 of retail.

  17. The Prettiest Curse*

    I posted in this thread a couple of weeks ago about learning that the person who bullied me off my project team at my last job had finally left that organization. Alas, even though she got her best friend/boss fired, she did not get fired herself. (She bullied – at the last count – 4 people in addition than me, and 3 of them left rather than continue working with her.) Instead, she left to be a consultant.
    I do hope she realises that it’s a lot easier to fire consultants than it is to fire regular employees…

    1. LKW*

      Oh it’s even better than that! I’ve been a consultant for 20 years- I’ve told many people my job is to do two things: Make my client look good and take the blame when something goes wrong. Oh she is in for a treat!

      1. Dancing Otter*

        I read a story somewhere about someone who specialized in taking the blame.
        Your project is doomed, and you need someone else to blame? Hire Joe!
        Not sure how he marketed that, though.

  18. Glimmer*

    My coworker thinks he’s complimenting me but it comes across super-patronizing and I want him to stop.

    Let’s call my coworker Bow. Bow and I work at essentially the same level and we work closely together, but with very different roles. I do a more technical role and he has a more business oriented-role. He is also about 20 years older than me and a man (I am a woman) and we work in an industry that is very male-dominated.

    Every meeting we have, whether it involves reporting our status higher up in our organization or meeting with customers/vendors, he says something along the lines of “And I just want to say Glimmer has been doing a MAGNIFICENT job on this.”

    I think he’s coming from the right place, but it comes across as extremely patronizing to me. It feels like something someone would say about an intern who is performing well, not a mid-career professional who works at the same level and is already recognized a technical expert in their field. I want to get him to stop, but I’m not sure how to word it because saying “Please stop complimenting me” might be a bit confusing.

    2. Lady Lynn Waterton of Bellashire*

      Haha I see why this is frustrating. If it’s at all true, I would give it back in a saccharine way, “No, Bow, YOU did a magnificent job”. But I’m a little passive aggressive :)

    3. Undine*

      Own the compliment. “I’m really pleased with the way it’s going, I think we have a great team and the decision to do X (where X is something the client chose, for example) is really paying off.” Or, “There’s still some risk around Y that we need to monitor, but I agree that overall, it’s going well.”

      1. Artemesia*

        The reason it bugs you is that it IS condescending; the fact that he is doing it suggests that HE is in charge and you are assisting him. (and thanks for the excellent sandwiches, you always get the horseradish just right). It is a trap because awkward to say something to him; two ideas.
        1. The example from the # above “I’m really pleased with the way it’s going, I think we have a great team and the decision to do X (where X is something the client chose, for example) is really paying off.’ This puts you back in charge and compliments the client — so good choice.
        2. Pre-empt — make a similar statement before he gets around to it — as soon as you meet with the client say that phrase above, and add ‘and I really appreciate the great help that you, Fergus, were on remogrifying the widgit sketches.’ This puts him in the subordinate role which may make the point with him or at least make you feel good.

        2. Glimmer*

          I think #1 is a good option. I also think #2 is a good option, but will be difficult. I don’t honestly think he does a good job. I think a lot of what I do is over his head and he resorts to making really obvious statements because he doesn’t have a ton to contribute. But maybe I should use this for that reason.

          1. meyer lemon*

            Ha! The nerve of this guy, doling out patronizing compliments when you’re working at a higher level than him. It does sound like a power play.

            This is a situation where I would just completely ignore the subtext and take the opportunity to emphasize the good work you’re doing.

          2. Not So NewReader*

            With this being the case then people probably already know this.

            In terms of a pre-emptive strike, can you say something like, “Well, Bob is going to say that I/we did a magnificent job. But I would like to redirect the focus to the teapot handles. This last batch was a really good batch and it made our jobs easier because of x, y and z.”

    4. LKW*

      A slightly different way to think about this – and it’s not really going to change anything – you’re 20 years ahead of your peer. He may not have worked with someone who is as young and as competent.

      Take the compliment, return it when it makes sense to. Call out others who have done a great job. Turn this into something positive that your whole team can get in on.

    5. LadyByTheLake*

      Usually I would bristle at this, but here it makes more sense that he would be saying things like this since he deals with the business — I would treat it as him just passing along that the clients are pleased or that you are making his job easier. On the other hand, tone is everything and I could see this being said in a tone that would be aggravating.

    6. Machine Ghost*

      Either Toodie’s or Lady of… answers work. If it’s sincere and he doesn’t realize he’s patronizing, he might be confused, but if you are lucky, it can become your running joke with him. Either it will make your work relationship with him better and it will continue, Chipmunks style, or he will get a clue and stop with the overboard compliment when he doesn’t like it turned back on himself.

    7. JP*

      In an internal meeting, say, “I think [this dude] did a great job, too.” Alternatively, “Thanks, buddy.”

      In a meeting with clients, what he’s doing can be a legit strategy to make the clients think you’re awesome — people believe it when they hear the sales guy talk the tech people up, even if the sales guy obviously has an agenda. So, if you’re dealing with external clients/customers, I’d just roll with it in the moment.

      Outside of the meetings, you could try saying, “I appreciate you trying to give me credit in front of [whoever], but I’d rather you highlight the features you like about the work instead of saying I did a good job.”

    8. cleo*

      Ugh. This guy. Possible responses:

      Huh. What a strange thing to say.

      Aw, aren’t you sweet for saying that. You did a good job too.

      1. Joan Rivers*

        Seems to be a lot of annoyance from people here today about petty stuff like this.
        Let it go!
        If he says something rude, that’s different, but this sounds well intentioned. Like he’s trying to act “positive.”
        You may say something to someone older that you don’t realize seems offensive or “patronizing” too! If you say complimentary things to other people. Some people don’t, and then they’re hyper sensitive if anyone tries to be pleasant to them.

  19. Fran Fine*

    Any tips/advice on applying to a federal writing job? I’ve never done it before and, honestly, the instructions seem kind of daunting. I have until June 1 to get my application submitted, so I want to work on it this weekend – any advice from federal employees would be appreciated, especially ones who have writing intensive positions in an agency.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      What kind of writing?

      If this is grant writing or contract writing, those are completely different balls of wax.

  20. Autistic therapist*

    If you’re neurodivergent, especially if you’re autistic, and you’re also a therapist – can you tell me a bit about what your training was like/work is like?
    How do you process information? In the session with your client, how do you capture the immediacy of the person’s feelings if you take a while to process information?
    Have you been accused of not being empathic, even though you are?

    Do you work with non-autistic people as clients – what’s the relating to them like?
    Any other thoughts about being neurodivergent and training to be a therapist or working as one would be greatly appreciated! TIA.

    1. Anon Mental Health Professional*

      I work in the mental health field and have a learning disability and anxiety. I have trouble participating in larger groups because I get distracted and overloaded by too much auditory information. I’m also an introvert and need time to process information.

      I found my training hard to get through because I was constantly being told by professors that I lacked empathy and wouldn’t be able to advocate for my clients. There was a lot of pressure by the faculty to constantly be interacting with my peers during downtimes in class and to be volunteering answers multiple times during classes to prove to them I could do it. When I got into the practical part of my training and now that I’m working in the field, I’ve found there to be a lot more understanding from my colleagues and supervisors about individual differences. There is very little pressure in my actual work-life to confirm to a certain mold. Different styles work with different types of clients. You’ll find what works for you. I found it helpful to work with supervisors who had different styles during my training and to get exposure to working with different kinds of clients. Observing how other people worked and getting frequent feedback from my supervisors helped me find my own routine.

    2. Nightengale*

      I’m a neurodivergent developmental pediatrician, which has a lot of overlap with therapy but is of course different. My patients are by definition neurodivergent. Some of their parents are and some aren’t. The neurotypical parents are definitely harder for me to relate to. But I have lots of scripts for them. A lot of my job is interpreting back and forth between autism and neurotypese.

      I’ve generally been accused of being too empathic with my patients. The problem has always been not understanding (or being understood by) neurotypical coworkers. There is so much us/them assumptions in medicine and related mental health fields. I am so much more like the “them.” Which is why we need so many more of “us” in the field.

      My challenge isn’t so much processing feelings as processing visuals. I pick up on spoken and non-spoken verbal cues but not visual ones. In high emotional settings I sometimes use a bit of silence to gather my thoughts, find the words, figure out what is going on. The bit of silence is often helpful for everyone. Or as I am always telling families, we need to get our own amygdalae (fight or flight) under control and get our frontal lobes (think it through) back on line before assisting others (the kids.)

    3. Gnizmo*

      I am an autistic therapist. My training was a bit of a mixed bag at times. My professors were very confused by me which ultimately led to a really great experience, but was kind of stressful at first. My first supervisor for clinical work clicked with me real well though and from there it was super smooth sailing.

      As for the practice, well I actually believe my autism is a benefit rather than a hinderance. You don’t want a ton of subtext in therapy. This easily leads to confusion and wrong assumptions. In day to day life I guess other people get by with this. In the room during that hour you want total clarity though. So anytime I am confused I ask for clarification. Interestingly, this is also what I hear a lot of people recommend as best practice because words can mean so many different things to do many different people.

      Simple reflections are also really helpful with this. People will offer their emotional state when prompted, and reflecting it back can be extremely beneficial. There is a lot of healing to be done in just being seen for who you are for one hour a week. Research and personal experience tell me this.

      A brief pause, as mentioned earlier, tends to be really helpful as well. People read it as you really taking in what they said. It is appreciated as it shows you are really sitting with what they are going through. That, and silence is a great tool in therapy in general. I am super comfortable being quiet during emotional conversations because I have to spend so much time sorting it out anyways.

      That is at least how my stuff interacts with it. I hope you can have a similar positive experience.

  21. shocked I tell you*

    I was laid off in December for budget cuts due to Covid. My employer made it a point to say that as per policy they would not give any references beyond confirming employment. I was able to negotiate and get a written lukewarm reference. I was exhausted of it all and going back and forth and needed it to be behind me. My question is, how would you all handle this? Many applications ask for references when you submit the application. Or for when references come up later… Should I include the written letter as an attachment? If it gets to the stage where they ask for references should I give them the letter and say the former employer has a strict no reference policy? I can use the contact info for some co-workers, but it is a small company and it would look weird to include them if they are obviously not my supervisor. Should I not bring it up at all?

    This has all been disappointing because I feel like losing my job was bad enough, but I feel like this makes me look bad and will make it harder to find a job.

    1. Coenobita*

      I don’t think this is on you! If your former employer has a no-reference policy, they can tell the reference-checker that. I wouldn’t submit the letter anywhere unless one is explicitly requested! I would list your supervisor (even knowing they won’t engage per company policy) and also list some other colleagues, former supervisors, etc. who you know will actually serve as good references.

      1. shocked I tell you*

        Maybe. I’m perhaps a little anxious because years ago I had something similar happen. I left a job on good terms and later when I was looking for another position I reached out to my former supervisor who was happy to provide a reference. Then a few months into my job search the company changed their policy and warned managers they could be fired for violating policy and to direct all calls to HR. Former boss didn’t tell me this and when someone called for a reference it looked bad to them. The job called me to say it was “concerning” to them. Maybe they just overreacted. I don’t know. But I didn’t get that job and I’m pretty nervous about it now even though it’s been years since this happened.

        1. Coenobita*

          I think that says more about the job you were trying to get – there are so many companies out there that do this! Maybe you can note that when you provide your references? “Just so you are aware, my understanding is that Former Company’s policy is X. The contact information for my additional references is…”

          1. TWW*

            Right? A reference only providing dates of employment is so common, it’s surprising that a potential employer would be concerned by that. Have they never hired anyone before?

            1. shocked I tell you*

              I guess that I had not experienced this before personally. Or at least I had not had a job prospect come back to me and tell me it was “concerning” so I thought it was a big deal. I know that often a manager will still speak on your behalf, but unfortunately, I don’t see that happening in this situation.

              1. PollyQ*

                I suspect the “concerning” part was that you offered someone as a reference who wouldn’t give one, and the lesson there is to check in with your references every so often to see if they’re still on board. I also think a lukewarm reference letter is probably worse than just saying that the company has disallowed references.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          It sounds like you were the first person they have ever interviewed. It’s a pretty common thing that a place will only verify dates, it’s surprising to me that they see a problem with this common thing. I wonder what else they are unaware of.

          OTOH, they did call you to state the nature of their concern. This pretty much gave you the opportunity to change course and give them another reference. If all was totally lost, they would not have bothered to call you.

    2. JohannaCabal*

      I would still give them the contact information for your old boss and just mention the reference policy. Alison has pointed out that many manager disregard company reference policies, especially for if they really liked your work (and I’ve done the same because I wasn’t going to let my org’s reference policy stop my intern from getting her dream internship).

    3. Artemesia*

      I’d be happier with a ‘no reference, confirm dates’ reference than a lukewarm one that I was in charge of conveying. I think the former does better for you than the latter.

    4. ferrina*

      Do you have former coworkers who can speak to your work? I would offer an enthusiastic coworker over a supervisor who can’t say anything. Unless a company specifically asks for a supervisor, you don’t need to list one. Other options can include volunteer coordinators at places you volunteer.

      If you haven’t asked a former coworker to be a reference and don’t have their contact info, go to LinkedIn! I recently reached out to a couple former coworkers via LinkedIn, asked if they’d like to grab virtual coffee (they were people I like) then asked if they were willing to be a reference. You can even say something like,
      “This is kind of awkward, but I was recently laid off and don’t know who to use as a reference! Since we worked so closely on XYZ, would you be willing to be a reference and speak to my skills in that area?”
      The worst that will happen is that they will say No and you’ll be in the same spot you are now (okay, if you’re as socially awkward as me, you’ll also feel really awkward, but that’s okay, just remind yourself that most people are awkward, it’s really normal)

    5. Mononoke Hime*

      That policy sucks and the lukewarm reference letter likely won’t get you anywhere as most semi-decent employers would want to communicate with your references and ask them very specific questions about you.

      That said, you should still provide the name and contact info of your former manager and mention the policy, so reference checkers can confirm on their own. Coworkers, clients, previous managers at other companies and even industry partners can serve as real references. Many people aren’t able to provide managerial reference from their most recent work places (eg. job hunting in secret) and reasonable companies would recognize and work around that.

  22. Scout Finch*

    I am SOOOO excited! My employer (a state medical university in the southeastern US) announced this week that, as of July 1, paid parental leave will be added to our benefit package. I don’t have kids (and never will), but this will be HUGE for my coworkers and the institution.

    I don’t know the details, but I am hopeful this will spread to other state institutions and private employers. This will make it much easier to attract & keep good employees.

    1. Eleanor Knope*

      Yay! How awesome for your organization — and it’s very cool that you’re excited about a benefit you never plan on using.

    2. PollyQ*

      Woot! This should pay off for you indirectly, since it will make your employer more attractive, so they should get more/better candidates, and it should cut down on turnover caused by people (mostly women) having to quit their jobs to have a baby.

  23. Coenobita*

    Please note: I am in no way, shape, or form a decision-maker in this situation. Thank goodness.

    At my office job, the entry-level role is an assistant analyst (it’s like half analysis work and half administrative). Our team has a new assistant analyst who started a couple months ago. Apparently, another job they applied for during their job-searching period just got back to them and offered them their dream position – and they want to do both jobs. The official policy on outside employment is only about conflicts of interest; plenty of us (including me) have second jobs but they’re side gigs on the nights & weekends. This employee wants to do two full-time jobs that both mostly operate during standard business hours. They’re like, “lots of people out there work 70-80 hours per week, it’s fine.” HR says, “it’s not against policy.” There is no way this will end well for anyone, right??

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Yeah, this is completely unsustainable.

      What happens when one of the jobs has crunch time, or needs a 3-day trip to a client?

      I worked a 20-hour side gig for about 9 months and it was just too much.

      1. Coenobita*

        Yeah, I mean, at one point I had a full-time job and was in full-time grad school at night and also had a regular volunteer gig, which I’m sure added up to more than 80 hours. But all of those things were scheduled for different times of the day/week! and I didn’t expect them to all just continue forever!! The only way it worked was because I had full buy-in and certain (temporary) accommodations from all sides.

    2. SomebodyElse*

      Oh this is terrible. While it is true there is probably no policy that specifically states “You can’t have 2 full time jobs” There is probably something along the lines of “working 40 hours during core hours”

      If I was the manager in this situation and my HR had tied my hands like this. I would make it crystal clear with the employee that I expected them to work and be available to me during the core hours (whatever they are) and for 40 hours per week. I would ask them upfront if they were going to commit to that. Then when they say yes, because they will always say yes to this crazy idea. I would make sure that I was documenting everything and at the first hint of them not working to my expectations, I would begin the PIP process.

      At best the employee will realize this is a stupid idea and resign from one of the jobs. Most likely they will be fired from the one that takes a harder line. At worst they’ll be fired from both.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        This is the part I don’t understand. Theoretically I could get another 40-hour job where I only work in the evenings and weekends. But how can HR say there’s no issue with two 4o-hour jobs that have to happen during business hours? Sure, there’s no policy against it. Because it’s physically impossible. I mean, if I were this person’s boss, and had this weird HR response, I’d say “you can do the other job but I expect you here 8-5 (or whatever) and there are production goals you need to meet.” And then see what happens.

    3. RabbitRabbit*

      Plus those people who work 70-80 hours per week generally do it for the same employer, so they’re just putting in a ton of overtime for one single job, rather than being expected to focus on competing requirements from different employers.

      1. Ama*

        Yeah, I know the OP isn’t the manager/decision maker here, but one thing I’d want to pin my manager down on if I was told a coworker was going to do this is what’s the plan for making sure both jobs get equal priority during business hours — What if both have an emergency “I need this by the end of the day” project on the same day? If I’m trying to get that person into an important meeting, am I really going to have to work around any meetings their other job already has scheduled for them?

      2. The New Wanderer*

        And they work 70-80 hours in serial, not in parallel, which isn’t possible. I would expect the policy to have some wording about core hours, expectations of work schedule, or something like that which would prevent this kind of situation from even being considered. OP’s HR has really fall down on the job here if they’re allowing this to be approved.

      1. Coenobita*

        I mean, it’s a conflict in the “these things physically conflict with each other” sense, but not in the “you can’t use your position to benefit yourself” sense that’s covered by the policy.

        1. Shirley Keeldar*

          Right—it’s a conflict with the space-time continuum, but not with ethics.

          1. Coenobita*

            Maybe the employee has a time-turner!! That is definitely not covered by our staff handbook :)

    5. A Frayed Knot*

      It is a definite conflict of interest if they are not giving 100% of their effort to the job they are being paid to do in the moment. If their hours with you are supposed to be 9-5, and they are doing ANY work for the other company during that time, my employer considers it time theft (being paid for not working).

      You are right…this will not end well.

    6. LKW*

      Entry level role – if they are to attend/conduct any meetings then they’ll immediately start having schedule conflicts and they don’t have enough seniority to request that others move their schedules around to accommodate.

      I see this lasting about 2 weeks until it becomes glaringly obvious.

    7. Sparkles McFadden*

      All I have to say is this: Please, please, PLEASE give us an update in a few weeks!

    8. EarthBound*

      Our outside employment policy talks about conflict of interest AND if the outside employment has any negative affect on the employee’s job. I don’t see how a 2nd full-time job (especially if they operate during business hours).

    9. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      Most people can’t handle that pace for long periods of time. What happens when they get sick and need to call out of both jobs? One of those managers is going to say “quit your other gig or don’t come back.”

    10. JP*

      It depends. I’ve had full-time jobs that definitely didn’t have enough work to justify being full-time. If I could have double-dipped and done two jobs at once, it would have been a pretty good deal.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      So this person is going to work two 8 hour shifts, leaving 8 hours for sleep/life/food/etc.
      That ought to be interesting to watch. I hope they don’t get behind the wheel and attempt to drive.

    12. allathian*

      This sounds horrible… I pulled double shifts for a while, working about 35 hours for one employer and 20 hours for another, but they were completely different jobs. One was a standard entry-level office job and the other was doing customer surveys by phone in the evenings and on Saturdays. I did it for about 6 months before I realized that I needed some free time, too, and just Saturdays off work wasn’t cutting it, so I quit the call center job. I was single and didn’t have any family commitments at the time, and I had a lot more energy in my 20s than I do now…

  24. EPLawyer*

    Minimum wage. this is more a rant, but feel free to actually give suggestions. Where I live, minimum is $11.50 an hour (maybe its gone up to $12, I haven’t had to compute it lately for child support). This is not enough to live on. Granted its a higher cost of living area. But there are place where minimum wage is actually $7.25? Like there is no local bump? Even in a lower cost of living area how do sane people think that is enough for even ONE person to live on? And that’s presuming you can get 40 hours a week. A lot of place paying that won’t give you enough hours to qualify for benefits, so you aren’t making $7.25 for 40 hours. Which is even LESS to live on.

    It boggles the mind.

    1. JillianNicola*

      When I worked at the red big box retail who shall not be named, they thought they were heroes for raising our minimum to $13/hr. The cost of living in the suburb I worked was almost $20/hr. It didn’t affect me because I was leadership and made but over that, but it was like, thanks for the extra money but my team would still be homeless if they didn’t have parents/spouses/extra jobs to help them.

    2. RabbitRabbit*

      Per the National Conference of State Legislatures, as of April 2021: “Five states have not adopted a state minimum wage: Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, South Carolina and Tennessee. Two states, Georgia and Wyoming, have a minimum wage below $7.25 per hour. In all seven of these states, the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour applies.”

      I suspect some cities in those states may have a higher minimum wage, but I’m sure it’s far from all.

      Sane people don’t think that’s enough to live on. Deluded/jerk people think that’s supposed to be “incentive” to “better yourself” (but apparently going to college is the dumbass way to do it now and why did anyone ever listen to a couple generations’ worth of people insisting that you should do that while the cost of college skyrocketed past wages being able to keep up) and that minimum wage jobs are for kids like their labor isn’t worth much and their bodies can be burned and bruised for a pittance.

      Ugh.

      1. pancakes*

        EPI dot org has this broken down by state, on a page titled “Minimum Wage Tracker.”

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          This is a great site, I use it a lot.

          Thirty (+DC) states have a min wage higher than the feds. Cities with higher wages are mostly within those 30 (eg, Seattle WA or NYC), but Birmingham AL has too.

          The 20 states that don’t are mostly South and Midwest:
          Alabama, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Wisconsin, and Wyoming.

          Houston, Philly, San Antonio, Dallas and Austin are the largest cities still at min wage. St. Louis, Chicago, Jacksonville FL are all above it.

          Many GOP controlled states have *prevented* cities or counties from raising the min wage. EPI’s “Worker rights preemption in the U.S.” map shows TX, GA, etc and the year the forbidding laws passed, under the Minimum Wage tab.

          It sucks. The fed wage needs to go up so that marginalized workers in these states can catch a break.

          TX job market is hot enough that few in the cities are working for min wage, but Atlanta could use the boost.

      2. NotMyRealName*

        The official minimum wage is $7.25 here in Wyoming, but nobody is paying that. In my town the lowest I’ve seen advertised is $11/$12.

      3. Jules the 3rd*

        Yeah, there’s also more states where the law is ‘minimum wage = federal wage’. It’s a total of 30, per EPI, mostly US South and Midwest (TX, GA, KS, IA, NC).

        Most of those 30 also forbid local govs from enacting their own min wage laws, you can see that list on EPI’s “Worker rights preemption in the U.S.” page, tab Minimum Wage.

        The current labor crunch helps *some*, but there’s a reason the federal wage is the preferred tool for raising wages / growing the middle class.

      4. GothicBee*

        Yeah, it’s crazy. I live in Virginia and the minimum wage here was $7.25 an hour until this month (May 1st) when it was raised to $9.50 an hour, which is long overdue in my opinion. I have family who manage fast food stores and they’re super upset about the change. I’ve had to stop talking about it with them because I just get angry every time they try to argue that minimum wage should stay the same. Eventually the minimum wage here will increase to $15 an hour, but that’s a few years from now, so it’ll probably still be too low at that point.

        Also, as a result of the minimum wage increase, my workplace upped my pay too, which I didn’t expect (previously I was around $15 an hour now I’m at $17 an hour).

    3. Lora*

      Yup. Neighboring state is $7.25/hr, where I grew up is still $7.25/hr. Rents for a 1 bedroom apartment now are about $1000-1200 in those areas, nevermind utilities and food, so after taxes – forget it. There is literally nowhere to live on those wages unless you are working two full time jobs. I guess you could get SNAP and food bank groceries?

      When I was in college, the minimum hovered around $4/hour, but the rent for a two bedroom apartment I shared with a roommate was only $375/month. Phone bill which was still the Ma Bell Monopoly was $20/month. Rents have increased 3X, utilities increased 4X, food I don’t even know how much it’s increased – and they say we only have 2% inflation per year. Someone can’t do math properly, and it’s not me.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Growing up in the 60s, $100 of groceries FILLED the back of a station wagon. And station wagons were bigger then. That was our monthly shopping bill-it would last us a month. My father would pick up small things on the non-pay weeks.

        Now $100 worth of groceries fills TWO reusable shopping bags.

        Even on to 1979- 1980 I can remember gas being 87 cents a gallon and people complaining about the price of gas.

    4. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I live in Tennessee. When I worked for a grocery store after college, they acted like it was the biggest deal in the world that they paid us a $7.40 an hour, a whole 15 cents more than they were legally required too. You also got a ten cent an hour raise after you’d been there for six months, also presented as “incredible benefits how generous what an amazing place to work”.

      That was about six years ago, and as far as I know it hasn’t changed.

      1. Ama*

        What’s completely out of line to me is that I remember very clearly when the national minimum wage went up to $5.00 because I was a teenager making minimum wage at the time. That was 25 years ago. It is absolutely ridiculous that there are places where the minimum wage has only gone up TWO DOLLARS in more than TWO DECADES.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          I made $5.15 an hour (minimum) when I lived in Santa Cruz, CA. It’s smaller than Springfield, so the number of good jobs is also smaller. When I left in 1994, the rents were comparable to Springfield, MO—around $650-$900.

          Now the minimum wage in CA is higher, close to $13-14 an hour, but apartments in Santa Cruz are $2000 A MONTH AND UP. D:

          According to the Economic Policy Institute’s Family Budget Calculator, I would have to make $50,856 minimum to live in Santa Cruz again. In Los Angeles/Long Beach/Glendale metro area, it calculates to $42,825. I couldn’t move to LA for less than $52000, but holy wallet crunch, Batman.

          I know people in Santa Cruz who got along fine when I lived there and are practically on the edge of homelessness now. It’s just f*cking infuriating.

          1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

            I had minimum wage or min+10¢ jobs in the 70s. I never had a problem finding an affordable apartment, and I never needed a roommate. Besides the wages not going up sufficiently, the big problem is housing – older buildings with cool, funky apartments are now condos with enormous price tags, or they were torn down and replaced with even pricier condos or with parking garages or office buildings.

            1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

              Oh, and those minimum wage full-time jobs had great health insurance, too, with no premiums for employees.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          In 1980 I was working for 2.91 per hour. Broken and defeated does not fully describe.

      2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        Bet they act real put out if people say they don’t want to work for them too

    5. Sylvan*

      Yeah, that’s minimum wage where I live. It’s not enough for anyone to live on.

      The logic of people who oppose raising minimum wage* is that jobs paying $7.25 ought to be entry-level, part-time jobs for people who don’t need to make a living. People like teenagers who are cared for by their parents or college students whose schools provide food and housing. People who need to earn more money ought to get better jobs.

      *I support raising minimum wage and I don’t agree with this reasoning at all, don’t @ me lol. I just live in conservative Boomer land.

      1. RabbitRabbit*

        And that’s acting as if the labor of teens isn’t worth fair compensation. Decades later I finally have trouble finding the burn scars on my arms from my time working in a restaurant in high school and college.

        1. pancakes*

          Yes, great point – it’s not as if teens who work only have to clean up junior-level messes, talk to junior-level irate customers, get only junior-level injuries.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          “You’re not worth it.”
          The total lack of awareness of this message being sent out is jaw-dropping.

          Another labor source that is exploited are folks with disabilities in group homes and other systems. They end up with a lot of “clean the restrooms” type of jobs. Society turns a blind eye.

      2. NotRealAnonForThis*

        I had a lot of fun with this one recently…

        “….so ::big national fast food chain:: should be closed during the school day during the school year? I mean, who is going to be staffing the place if it shouldn’t pay a reasonable wage because its an entry level job for teenagers?”

        Granted, I had this conversation with someone who feels the same as you mention in your example, Sylvan, whilst kvetching that they can’t seem to find a job that pays them appropriately because they have a family and deserve better than minimum wage. With no other qualifications than “but I have a wife and multiple children to support”. My brain simply cannot.

        That sound I swear I hear? 747 straight flyover.

      3. TWW*

        I earned minimum wage in my first few jobs, and it was fine because I lived with my parents. But by age 21, my wage had increased to something I could live on.

        Perhaps instead of just a minimum wage, we should also have a minimum raise for low wage earners. Say, at least +$1 per year for any wage below $20/hour.

      4. Jules the 3rd*

        Those same people probably oppose spending more on public schools… Ask them sometime if they support free community college, because that’s the minimum needed these days to get a ‘better’ job.

      5. Elizabeth West*

        The problem with that logic (not yours, I know!) is that in a lot of areas, those ARE the jobs. Like, all the jobs. “Get a better job!” Okay, but where? “Then move!” How do you pay for that, in cookies?

        In my small-ass hometown in MO, they had two manufacturers where you could actually make a decent living. One made office furniture and the other made wire display racks. Both are now gone.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I was recently told that by a person I did not expect to hear that from. I was absolutely stunned by the thoughtlessness here. So we will take everyone who is not making much money in NYS and move them down to the City? What could possibly go wrong?

        2. Mily*

          Yeah, my family is from the rust belt and my cousin’s wife used to commute an hour to work at Starbucks.

    6. ....*

      Yes there are places where it’s just the minimum. I used to live in one and work for the minimum at the time which I think was 7.15. My rent for my own studio apartment was $315 so that certainly helped. It paid for my rent and food just fine, but I was in college and my mom paid for my car snd healthcare which is of course what made it possible to live in.

    7. RagingADHD*

      Our minimum wage has no state bump, it’s $7.25. But I’m in a larger metro area, so I’m not sure what (if any) jobs around here only pay the minimum. I just saw an ad for basic entry-level office assistance at a tree service company that starts at $14/hr. I think the baristas at our neighborhood coffee shop are making $12-15.

      I think the grocery store cashiers start at $7.50, but those are nearly all teenagers and retirees working part-time.

      But I’d bet in rural areas you’d be hard pressed to find $12 anywhere without a degree or specialized skills.

      1. RagingADHD*

        The teenagers I refer to are at our small neighborhood grocery. There are plenty of folks at the bigger chains who are obviously working it as a main job, but I have no idea what the pay is there.

    8. Elizabeth West*

      I passed on applying to so many jobs in OldCity, mostly with the healthcare employers (who never hired me anyway) because they paid $7.25. I could not afford to DRIVE ACROSS TOWN for that salary, let alone live on it. Forget about food, utilities, or anything else.

      And I had a mortgage with a $415 a month payment, for a house I bought in 2002 when I was only making $8.15 an hour. But in the next 15 years, the price of everything went up so much it wasn’t even doable at that.

    9. aseyssel*

      “Even in a lower cost of living area how do sane people think that is enough for even ONE person to live on?”

      They don’t. It’s not supposed to be enough to live on. It’s supposed to be pay for the kinds of low- or no-skill job where you learn how to have a job. But right now our society looks down on those kinds of jobs so much it’s difficult to get hired out of them. We act like there is something fundamentally wrong with adults who hold these jobs. I think the minimum wage discussion is a distraction, and the real issue is the way our society prevents workers from transitioning from minimum wage jobs to career-track jobs. I know someone who couldn’t even make the transition from fast food to waiting tables. One manager said he’d rather hire anyone off the street than someone out of fast food. He said he didn’t want to have to train employees out of bad habits. Didn’t there used to be a regular commenter here who said she absolutely would not hire someone whose only experience is retail and restaurants? I think she said something to the effect of, “They can cut their teeth at someone else’s business.”

      Consider this: Two virtually identical resumes from college graduates for an entry-level position, the only difference being one had a series of internships and the other worked retail through college. Who is more likely to get the interview? The hiring manager isn’t likely to see one person has demonstrated they have the skills necessary to hold down a job, be accountable to an employer, and meet their targets with real-world consequences if they can’t (because it’s a real job), while the other was in a series of short-term programs designed to not allow them to fail. No, they’re more likely to see one candidate has experience in their industry and the other only knows how to run a cash register. I made the transition, but that was because I knew someone at a company that went through receptionists like water. It took years.

      1. pancakes*

        I realize that’s a common mindset but it doesn’t make much sense. The idea that everyone should be endlessly aspiring upward and onward is pretty arbitrary, and pretty moralistic about something that often isn’t a moral issue at all. Why should it bother anyone else if someone is content to have a retail or food service job or whatnot? Or if they aren’t content but have spent years doing it anyhow, for any number of reasons? We need people to do those jobs—many millions of people, in the US—and people who do those jobs should be paid fairly and treated with dignity regardless what they have in mind for their future. Also, very, very few such jobs, if any, are truly low-skill. Doing anything well requires skill.

      2. GothicBee*

        I agree with some of what you’re saying about people looking down on fast food workers. But fast food is not a low or no skill job and it’s not a transition job either. It’s a job full stop. There’s no reason someone working at McD’s or whatever shouldn’t earn enough to live off of. And switching from fast food to an office job is a career change. The same as anything else. There’s no reason to treat it like a stepping stone. I worked fast food and retail jobs for years until I got an office job, and I agree that having to work those jobs instead of being able to do an (unpaid) internship were part of why I struggled to get a job, but minimum wage is still an important thing to focus on because as long as some people can be paid too little to live on, everyone suffers. I mean for some reason everyone seems to think the problem is just that these people can’t find good jobs, but we do actually need people to work in food service, retail, etc. and they should be paid well.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          ” It’s a job full stop.”

          It only becomes a real job when there is an outbreak of food poisoning or a fire or some other major event. Then it’s “Some one failed to do their JOB!” This one cannot be cut both ways, it cannot be a training ground full of inexperienced people but suddenly become an important job when (a predictable) crisis arises.

          I read some where and I agree, we have the youngest, most inexperienced people in charge of a whole section of our food supply. If that is not scary then what is.

  25. Amber Rose*

    My boss was demoted. She said that upper management would probably talk to me about it and let me know the plan going forward. They did not. They talked to everyone else except me. I have no idea who I report to now.

    I’m a ghost. I get noticed if I make stuff move around but otherwise I’m not thought of or seen. It hurts a bit more than I thought it would since I pretty much already knew. Husband says I should just go ask, but… I can’t get the courage to do this anymore. I’m exhausted. I can’t face another “oh sorry, we forgot you” or worse “oh, we didn’t think you needed to know” reaction. I just can’t do it. I’m also a little pissed off they made my poor manager tell me about her demotion herself. That’s just total bullshit.

    I’d love to find a new job but there aren’t any. In all the country, our job market has taken the biggest hit and unemployment levels are off the charts. I also can’t risk taking on a job that might not last. At the very least, I’m invisible enough to not get fired either.

    How the heck do I do this? I feel frozen. I’ve done almost no work in days because I’m so miserable.

    1. SomebodyElse*

      Oh this is terrible. You need to go to whoever was your grandboss and ask. Honestly, you have my permission to be snarky with your HR and/or your grandboss, lord knows I would be. If nothing else they need to know that your new boss hasn’t made contact with you yet and you were left out of the official announcement.

      There is really no other option other than floating along not knowing who you report to.

      I’m so sorry.

      1. Amber Rose*

        We don’t have HR. My grandboss would be the COO I suppose, but he’s on vacation. I might get a chance next Friday.

        1. Artemesia*

          I’d get on his calendar now and give a lot of thought to how YOU see your job going forward –have a good handle on what you do that is valuable and how you think your reporting arrangement should be. Lots of bosses will get rid of you if you require them to deal with your issues. So go in with questions about how he sees your role and reporting lines, but have a plan you can offer . “I wanted to meet with you to better understand my role since Maya’s role has changed and I no longer report to her. I have some idea of how we will proceed but wanted to make sure you didn’t have something else in mind.’ then if he blusters around you can say ‘Since I am in charge of remogrifying the widgit sketches, it makes sense for me to report to Claude; we have some deadlines coming up and I want to make sure I meet them.’ And then let him react. He probably doesn’t want to bother with you, so make it easy on him.

    2. Msnotmrs*

      Sympathy. Due to rapid turnover, I’ve had four bosses in 18 months. And I’m a one-person department to boot, so nobody really understands what I do day-to-day, and it seems like no one feels really confident enough to ask/direct me.

      Maybe just let yourself feel your feelings through the end of the workweek, and address it on Monday.

      1. Amber Rose*

        You’re like me then. I’m also a one person department and nobody knows what I do.

        I could probably walk out of here and not come back today and people would just assume I was doing something important.

    3. Sparkles McFadden*

      I am so sorry this is happening to you. It sounds exhausting and demoralizing.

      I have to say that, early in my career. I embraced my ghostliness and once I did, work became much better. What I mean by this is that I would decide what I wanted to do and then…I’d go do it. In a situation like yours (and I have been there) I’d decide what my reporting structure would be and then go see the person who could make that happen and present my plan as a done deal. I’d say “No one has spoken to me yet but I am guessing what’s going to happen is this…” I was shocked at the number of times the response would be “Uh…yeah…yeah…that it.”

      I worked for a very large corporation and, the thing about corporations is that everyone assumes that if you are doing something, it’s because someone told you to do or at least said it was OK. I once rearranged all of the furniture on my first day in a new department. I suggested it to a coworker who said “I’ve suggested that and no one will OK it.” I told him that, if we just did it, everyone would just say “Oh yes. That’s better.” That’s what happened. I did stuff like this for three decades. I think it’s why I was able to stay in one company for so long. I’m not sure of the dynamics in smaller companies.

      My examples are a little extreme for most people, but decide what you want and present it to someone who can make it happen. The worst that can happen is someone would say no…but at least you will know what’s going on. Uncertainty is harder than facts.

    4. EarthBound*

      I used to work in the back end of a big box retail store. Everyone was terrified to do anything they had not been told. “What if corporate finds out?” One day I convinced a few of my coworkers to rearrange our offices and some of the racking to make work easier for us. One of them was terrified we would get in trouble.

      …weeks later our store manager and the regional manager walked by. The store manager asked, “Is something different back here?” “Nope,” I responded. “It’s always been like this.” No one ever said anything else. After that we made a lot of changes and we always told people it had always been like that. No one ever paid enough attention to argue with us.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      You have been having a heck of a time for a while now, I am so sorry.

      I do understand you when you say you are exhausted. I also see that you don’t have too many options. This is a tight spot to be in. One thing that I landed on for myself is that the WORST thing that can happen is that I do not stand up for ME. I do understand that this feels like explaining two apples plus two apples equals four apples to grown a$$ed adults. I know first hand the thought of having to explain basic things to people who make much more money and should know better is pretty soul crushing. Do it anyway. Standing up for ourselves is super important. In my mind the final straw is when I do not stand up for myself for [reason]. Nope, stand up for you. You are a very valuable person- because we all are valuable people. Baseline respect needs to be in place at all times, insist on it.

      We see this also with folks who are sick, they have to argue for the correct med or treatment. It’s a pattern we have in society that the people who are struggling the hardest are the very people who are left alone to advocate for themselves. Collectively, we suck.

      This time do one thing different. Just by way of example, my thought is when you hear that standard reply of “sorry we forgot” or “we did not think you needed to know”, have a response ready for this crutch- er— excuse.

      I might try something like, “You know, I hear that phrase a lot. I have worked here x years and I think it’s time we toss that phrase out the window and agree not to use it any more. I am not new. I am a well established member of this [organization/company] and it should not be a surprise that I am here.” I would go in and say this the next time you work. Don’t let this garbage lay around so you can keep smelling it. And this is garbage, it’s very disrespectful. I would go to my boss’ boss if it were me. Tell her things need to change because you are not getting the information you need to do your job.

      FWIW, this internet stranger wishes she could wave a magic wand and get you out of this hole. But more reality based, I hope with all my heart that something breaks in your favor very soon.

  26. Lady Lynn Waterton of Bellashire*

    I’m a teacher about to end the school year. I really want to use my summer to rest but at the same time I cannot handle life without a schedule controlled by outside circumstances (i.e. I’m not good at sticking to a schedule myself). I lay around and get in a bad mood because I don’t do anything productive while my husband is at work, but I also feel trapped by a schedule when I just want to relax during the summer. I do work a little bit online, but hours are sporadic and I don’t set them – think 8-10am and 1-2pm one day and then 11-3pm one day and then nothing the next and 9-3pm the next day.

    How do I balance needing structure but also wanting to be free of structure? Is this possible lol? I just want to be able to relax without feeling like a bum. Hope this made sense!

    1. PX*

      Plan specific relaxation time? Or have small but specific outside things that you need to do that will give you some structure, and then allow the rest of your time to be relaxation. So maybe like, volunteer 2 hours a day for whatever, or run X errand. You can tick the productivity box, and then give yourself permission to relax.

      But I guess the other bigger question is why do you feel the need to be productive all the time? You work hard the rest of the year, you’re allowed to be a bum during your holiday – thats the point of holiday!

    2. The Original K.*

      Can you schedule your relaxation? I had an insanely busy day last week and I made a point to put a 45-minute “go outside” block on my calendar to give myself some rest and natural vitamin D. On the days when you’re not doing your online work, can you schedule “clean the bathroom,” “read*,” “exercise,” “meditate,” or whatever else would be restful for you, in blocks of time?

      (*I’m implementing scheduling time to read myself. Since my father passed away, I’ve been having trouble focusing on reading. I am typically a voracious reader – 40 – 45 books a year – and am going to see if scheduling the time helps.)

    3. Goddess47*

      If you really need a schedule, find a ‘working buddy’ who will keep you going. If you have to do reading, writing, organization, cake decorating, whatever, set up a regular time with your buddy and just do it. I find it helpful to be on Zoom with a friend when I have (self-imposed) writing deadlines. We do like 2 minutes of ‘how are you’ and lapse into silence. We don’t audit each other, so there’s an honor system to it but just the fact that I’m at my computer makes me way more productive.

      Or just someone who you can text with. Send ‘start’ and ‘stop’ messages to each other to help you keep on track.

      But, do enjoy the summer, too!

    4. Undine*

      When I was self employed, I helped myself get structure by taking fun classes, like yoga or art. Then I had reasons to get up and do things, but it wasn’t a work commitment.

      1. Reba*

        This was going to be my suggestion! Is there a class — fitness, art, language — or some lessons you would like to try? Just having a few regular things, even just once a week, helps with my sense of time. Plus it’s enriching and all that.

    5. CG*

      My best advice for this is to not schedule too many specific productive things for yourself, but rather try to establish a few personal routines, so you have those to look forward to every day and to help center you in a new day. They can be whatever works best for you, from more structured to less structured! Examples:
      -every day I wake up and brew a cup of coffee, then drink it while reading the newspaper/listening to NPR
      -every night before I go to bed, I do a YouTube yoga video or take a walk
      -I try to call my mom up at least once per weekend
      -on Saturdays (or Wednesdays!), I sleep in until I wake up, and then I make a big breakfast
      -I pick a show I want to binge and watch one episode after lunch every day
      -I read books for 30 minutes before bed
      -every Tuesday, I take a stroll through the farmers market, and then every Friday, I pick up whichever groceries we still need
      -I volunteer at library down the street from me every Wednesday morning
      -on Thursdays, I get lunch with friend X

      These are things that won’t feel like letdowns if you don’t do them exactly the same each time, but still help move you through a day. I work an office job that switched to wfh in the pandemic, and routines were so helpful for me staying sane and on track. (…and they still help me remember to do things like switch work off and go do my nighttime stuff.)

    6. AgathaChristieFan*

      I am in a similar position. I signed up for a water aerobics class each morning. It gets me out of bed and out of the house and provides structure to the day. But I have no regular commitments beyond that so I can do the little bit of online work when I need to and relax when I want.

    7. Artemesia*

      BF Skinner used his own principles on himself. He had set morning hours to write after which he rewarded himself — in his case it was music then a leisurely afternoon.

      Figure out what you need to do and reward yourself when you keep to your schedule.

      1. purpler*

        Rewards work for me too. If I do laundry (I hate laundry) I get to read a chapter of my book. Clean the kitchen, then time for lunch! The problem for me is if I get into endless social media or phone games. Then the day goes by in an unproductive fog.

    8. Dark Macadamia*

      I’m so bad at self-imposed routine but also hate the feeling of having no structure, lol. Usually it helps to have one thing I plan early in the day to force myself out of the house – like take a daily walk, meet a friend for coffee, etc. I’m less likely to laze around if I have some momentum going, and even if it does end up being the only thing I do at least I’ll have done something.

      Are there activities/hobbies you’d be interested in but don’t have time for during school? Can you sign up for a few classes and allow yourself to be unproductive the other days?

      Also, I’d try to think of things that would actually be satisfying for you rather than like, “I’ll go to a spa/lie on the beach because that’s what you’re supposed to do to relax.”

    9. meyer lemon*

      Oh, I’m like you. What I’ve found helpful is figuring out what the lowest level of scheduling is needed to make me feel like my life has some direction. Low-pressure volunteer commitments and personal projects with a deadline usually work well for me.

      I’ve actually found that I’ve gotten better with self-imposed schedules as well, as long as there is some kind of tracking mechanism. For example, I can stick to a writing schedule if I keep track of my word count every day, even if there is no deadline. Maybe you could try experimenting with a few methods and see what works for you.

    10. Journaliste?*

      I completely feel this. I cannot impose a schedule on myself without there being someone else involved. I had a lot of time last year at home, so I did the things some people are recommending (courses are great and not too much effort/stress). I’ve also taken to signing up for a LOT of free webinars. I go to most of them, and it makes me feel like I’m learning, though they’re very low-key. Having a project on the go can be motivating (write a short story? embroidery?) I have to be strategic with my hobbies or I get overwhelmed with possibilities and end up doing nothing. Good luck!

    11. Jules the 3rd*

      Look for something that gives you external structure 1 – 2 days a week? (And then give yourself permission to do whatever the rest of the time) Museum docent, external training, part time job?

    12. GothicBee*

      Maybe it would help if you plan out specific fun/relaxing things you want to do? I’m the kind of person who can bum around and waste a ton of time binging boring tv shows or scrolling online. So it can help if I make a list of specific fun things I want to do. Like it can be something as simple as the fact that I love reading and playing video games, so I’ll have a plan for a specific book or game I want to play. That makes it feel more like I’m accomplishing something that I want to do instead of wasting time on stuff I’m not that into because I can’t decide what I want to do. Plus, I enjoy it because I’m picking fun stuff.

    13. Loves libraries*

      When I was at a school I remember how hard the first 2 weeks after school ended was so confusing after the breakneck speed of the last month of school. I would wonder what I was supposed to be doing. I give myself time to recover from the year. I usually have a house or yard project to complete and a vacation to look forward to. Lists help me accomplish what I want to do. Good luck.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      Balancing.
      My wise friend used to say watch the highs and lows in life. Any time you go high, you can expect to go low in the near future. The reverse is true also.

      At the start of the problem is the school year is so intense that the rebel in you takes over when summer comes- “I’m not moving from this couch!”. So this is where to start to change the pattern, during the school year. It was recently brought to my attention that it can be kind of unethical to give so much of ourselves at work that there is nothing left of us when we get home. This is not fair to those who love us and/or depend on us.

      Seriously reconsider everything around you. Are you taking on things that are not necessary to take on? Are there ways to make things easier or less time consuming? You mention not being good at sticking to a schedule, i am wondering if you plan a schedule that is even realistic to attempt?

      I have a very smart friend. She’s a wonderful person. But she packs way too much crap into one day and woefully underestimates how long it takes to do things. She ends up exhausted, feeling defeated and stuck in a chair. I told her to double her time estimates. Dishes won’t take 15 minutes, they will take a half hour. Breakfast is not 20 minutes, it’s closer to 4o minutes. Double all your time estimates and schedule your day accordingly.

      So start to tackle this problem by working where the problem starts. This will mean taking on less. It can also mean asking if something is absolutely necessary to do.

      Next, summer. You know the need to rest is legit, you know that right? Why not plan rest periods the same way you plan work periods? (You should plan rest periods during the school year also.) Adequate rest is necessary for good physical and mental health. Of course you are cranky- you are TIRED!! On days where you plan to do something, tie something else to that plan. Let’s say I have to go to the doctor’s on Tuesday. Great, the grocery store is on the way home, so I will take care of that optional, floating activity while I do the mandatory doctor appointment. The doctor appoint anchors that floating activity so it gets done, too.

      My last suggestion is really hard. I had to take a look at what my life actually was vs what I thought it should be. I was dismayed to see that I do not do my crafts as I would like. (I tossed at least half of them.) I love my antique glassware but I do not have time to dust it, (I got rid of half of it.) I had four house pets and while I loved them, I was tired from taking care of all their needs. (I went down to one dog, one cat and then eventually just the dog. I did not get new pets once the old ones passed.) My list goes on. It was humbling at first, but it later became nothing but a relief.

    15. Diatryma*

      In a similar situation, I volunteered with a charity shop that had given job training to some of my students. I knew the work– hang shirts, tag shirts, put shirts on sales floor– and they knew me. Three days a week, I’d go in, hang-tag-floor shirts or pants or whatever, have a coffee in the break room, and go home. It worked because it was structure and because it was a clear physical objective task; much of the rest of my to-do list were subjective or endless or intangible and I needed the visible ‘you did three racks of shirts, holy wow, that’s a lot’ reminder.

      You can find a structure that is also relaxing.

  27. I hate public speaking*

    So as my name says – I hate public speaking. I’m trying to improve so I can get to a state where I find it tolerable and not super scary. My manager is aware of this and they’re working on opportunities for me to practise.

    We have a super important presentation coming up which I’ll be part of for the first time. Given this (+ the fact that it’s scheduled for really late in my timezone) my manager’s offered to cover for me. This is probably a silly question, but will I look bad if I take my boss up on their offer? There’s going to be around 70 people listening, and the thought of it is stressing me out! On the plus side, I’ll probably speak for 5 minutes tops – but that suddenly seems like a really long time…

    Also, any tips for getting better at public speaking? Thanks for reading!

        1. toastess with the mostess*

          Yes, Toastmasters can be a bit scary and intimidating for some folks at first, but clubs are generally welcoming and friendly and will ease you in. Most of the ones around me are still meeting online, and love visitors, so it’s easier to try out a meeting to see if you like it.

          Depending on your area, you can try a couple of clubs to see which one works best for you, you can search on their website for local groups and meeting times.

          Good luck!

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I had really good public-speaking lessons when I was a teen, and I’ve trained others (in college & post-college).

      A few pieces of info that you might need to really internalize well:
      1) You are speaking because you are the expert – if everybody else knew what you were going to say, then there’d be no need to have a presentation.

      2) You will be surprised how quickly you get through your 5 minutes. 5 minutes is 3 powerpoint slides. It’s not even a full page of text.

      3) Slow. Down. See point #1. Since you’re the expert, and you know this stuff, you need to slow down so that your audience can absorb it. And slowing down gives you time to breathe and to make eye contact, and it will help prevent you from tripping over your tongue.

      1. Rick T*

        For your 3-ish slides select memorable images with no more than 5 words on each. Your slides are memory aids, YOU are the presentation.

        Don’t have paragraphs of text for you to read aloud, that just annoys the audience…. If they need technical details send out a handout after the event.

        Good luck!

    3. SomebodyElse*

      1st practice alone saying the words you are going to say outloud. That seems like obvious advice, but I’ve caught myself ‘practicing’ in my own head.

      2nd either find a buddy or video yourself speaking through your presentation without stopping. It’s cheating if you stumble and say “oh, um let me redo that part”

      Keep doing this until you feel comfortable with the content. Your goal for this 5 min presentation isn’t to be spectacular, your goal is to deliver content and get practice with public speaking. It’s ok if you you aren’t the best this time there are plenty of not great public speakers who get the job done and are working on getting better.

      1. Don’t Cry Out Loud*

        Yes. Practice your presentation out loud. Several times. Really helps

      2. MissCoco*

        This is great advice, I’d just like to add a rule that’s important to me with this type of rehearsal:
        it’s cheating if you say “oh, um let me redo that”, but it is NOT cheating to say “oh, um” and then keep on going, or take a 3 second awkward pause “. . . . . as I was saying,” and keep going, or mis-speak and say “not X, I meant Y”

        Having some stock phrases in your back pocket for those little slip ups can be reassuring, and practice working through your flubs is also helpful.

      3. CatMintCat*

        I teach debating and public speaking to 10-12 year olds and practise to an audience of some sort is the key. Parents, siblings, the cat, the dog, go out in the paddock and entertain the sheep (farm kids) or, if all else fails, to yourself in the mirror. But practise, practise, practise!

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      If you’re only presenting information for a couple minutes, rather than a dialogue or Q&A or a longer presentation, I find that works best for me is just to write out what I want to say, practice reading it aloud a few times to tweak it a bit so it doesn’t necessarily sound QUITE as formal as written language can, and then pretty much just read it verbatim. This is easier in a virtual presentation where you can put your script on your screen right below your webcam almost like a teleprompter, and I’m not sure whether yours is virtual or not? Any rate, it lets me put in pauses for breath (either by typing in “[breathe]” or even just double space between sentences if you’re worried that you’d actually read off “breathe”), and if I’m cuing slide changes either by myself or by a third part, I can make sure I include a “slide please” prompt where appropriate.

    5. Artemesia*

      I was crazy nervous when I first needed to speak before large groups — and by the end of my career, it was something I could do with little or no notice easily.

      Practice in the shower and car. AND try to focus on the audience and what they need to know rather than on your feelings. Easier said than done, but critical. WHAT do they need to know. Identify 2 or 3 points you will make and organize around that and think about how those points will be useful to them — what do THEY need to hear. The more you can focus on their need instead of yourself the easier it gets. I always work from lists/outlines and not written out speeches. It is easier to speak naturally this way.

      good luck — it really is something that gets better with practice.

    6. Donkey Hotey*

      1 – Practice out loud, not just imagining it. String the words out in your mouth.
      2 – Record yourself and listen to it. You’ll notice things about your speaking patterns when you hear it.
      3 – Practice with a friend.
      4 – Whatever you do, don’t do like the person awhile back who took a couple swigs of vodka right before the speech.
      Good luck!

    7. allathian*

      Public speaking is one of my least favorite things to do and I’m glad I don’t have to do it very often in my current job, apart from team meetings and town hall stuff that isn’t a problem if I’m asking rather than answering a question.

      Back when I was an account manager for a company that did customer surveys, I was quite nervous but did reasonably well because I *really* knew the material. I rehearsed my presentations, sure, but it helped to know that the audience was paying good money to hear the results I presented.

    8. More Coffee Please*

      I don’t think it looks bad to take your boss up on the offer to cover for you, especially given the time zone issue. Just don’t make it a habit. You could always clarify with something like, “Given that it will be 10 PM for me, that would be great. In the future though, I’m looking forward to getting more comfortable with these types of presentations.”

    9. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      I think you should try to power through it. You’ll feel SO GOOD that you were able to do your 5 minutes, and that will make the next speaking opportunity easier.

      Don’t forget to breathe, and don’t forget that the audience is just people. If it’s appropriate, smile at them. Mean it when you say “It’s good to be here” or “Thank you for having me.” Your first job is to communicate your information clearly and concisely — no one will ever criticize you for running too short! Make sure they know how to communicate with you if they have questions. It’ll be fine! I promise!

    10. JP*

      I don’t want to be negative, but it truly does depend on why you’re nervous. There are the nerves that everyone has about speaking in public, and then there are undiagnosed anxiety disorders and, if you have the second thing, forcing yourself to speak in public will do more harm than good. You have to use your judgement and do what’s right for you.

      If it’s just regular nerves, though, it can help to think about why you want to do the public speaking — because it’s going to advance your career, or because you want to be part of the discussion, etc, and then look at the speech as an opportunity to learn and get better, knowing that, even if it doesn’t go great, the experience you gain will make the next speech after go better.

  28. ThatGirl*

    Can we talk about summer Fridays/summer hours? How do your companies handle them, if they’re offered? I ask because my new job just sent out an email about ours and it really reads like they don’t want us to do it every week. Which is totally counter to the two other places I’ve worked that offered them and it annoys me.

    1. HRArwy*

      My company is that one Friday’s you can leave by 2:00 PM EST as long as you have a buddy cover for you. So it alternates week by week.

    2. JillianNicola*

      My job does! How they do it, is every third Friday between Memorial Day and Labor Day you can take a half day, but you don’t exactly get to choose the days. They split all the summer Fridays into three groups, and you signed with with which group was your first, second, third choice. Then they placed you accordingly. Basically, because we work with clients, we can’t all not be in the office on Fridays lol. It worked out perfect for me because I get a half day the weekend of the 4th and the weekend of a convention I go to every year. This is the first time I’ve been offered something like this, and coming from retail where they never want you to take any time off ever, this is a gigantic perk for me. I suppose it would be annoying if other companies did every week, but grass is greener etc etc.

      1. JillianNicola*

        Should also comment in light of other comments in this thread – my company pays for this time! We put it in as PTO (separate from our normal PTO; it’s company time that’s literally labeled Summer Hours). It wouldn’t feel like a perk if I had to make up the hours Mon-Thurs??

        1. This Old House*

          At my first job, we didn’t have to make it up. I honestly felt like I was getting ripped off that that’s a requirement at this job, but it seems to be the norm. Definitely makes it not worth it, though! (You don’t even get to choose how you make up the hours M-Th – it’s an 8-6 schedule, and given how hard it is for me to get to work by 9, 8’s never going to happen. And given how hard it is to get dinner on the table at a reasonable hour when I work until 5, 6 is never going to happen. So I work Fridays.)

    3. I'm that guy*

      From Memorial Day through Labor Day we can leave/log off at noon on Fridays if we’ve put in an extra hour Mon-Thurs. I usually don’t take summer hours so that I can have 4 hours on Friday to catch up with paperwork, training, and other things that I can’t get done when I am in meetings and responding to requests.

      2. Lyudie*

        I used to work at Large Tech Co You’ve Heard Of and they did it this way, but it was semi-mandatory…they turned the A/C off at noon sharp on Friday haha. It was so popular they kept it year round after the second summer, I don’t know if they still do it or not.

    4. ThatGirl*

      For the record, what I’ve had at previous jobs is that everyone can take a half-day off on Fridays, between Memorial Day and Labor Day, provided they make up those 4 hours or so Mon-Thurs, with details worked out with your manager, and with the usual caveats that work needs to get done either way. I didn’t realize there were many variations on this, but what is bugging me most about the email we got this week is that it’s just not clear – it’s not spelled out how often we should take advantage of it, whether it should be every week or every other week or once a month or…??? And I really value clear communication and policies.

        1. ThatGirl*

          I did ask my manager for clarification; she hasn’t given it yet. But in the meantime I was curious about other companies’ practices.

    5. The Original K.*

      I worked somewhere where you added an hour Monday – Thursday and everyone got to leave at noon every Friday between Memorial Day and Labor Day. My then-roommate worked (she still works there!) for a rival company that did the same added M- Th hour but employees get every other Friday off. At both companies, it wasn’t really given as an option – I mean, you certainly COULD work a full day or on your day off on summer Fridays, but no one expected you to and the vast majority of people took them. The communication about it was basically “summer hours start next week, here’s how they work,” and your boss would go over it in the first meeting your team had after that announcement went out.

      I worked somewhere as a freelancer later that tried to implement a summer hours policy, apparently in response to an employee survey that expressed extreme dissatisfaction about … a lot of things, but they so clearly did not want to do it and it came through in all the communication about it. It was unnecessarily complicated and the communication was like “If you must, here’s what happens. GOD, you people are demanding.” It did not go over well. If I recall correctly, they also started it well into the summer.

    6. This Old House*

      My current job you can take summer Fridays (every Friday, June-Aug), but only by increasing your hours M-Th so your weekly hours don’t change. It’s never been worth it to me – mornings and evenings with kids are chaotic enough without chopping an hour out of each 4 days/week. At my last job, everyone got 3 (or 4? I can’t remember) summer Fridays where you just got the day off and didn’t need to make up the time. It was a rotating schedule that you didn’t get to choose, although I think they asked for input early in the process so you could request certain days on or off if you had a preference. It was a small enough office to accommodate that.

    7. sundog*

      We can take half days every other Friday provided we make up the hours earlier in the week, i.e. work one extra hour M-Th and then leave at noon on Friday. We’re all salary so honestly it feels a little weird to have to “make up” time in that way.

      1. The Original K.*

        Yeah, it felt like that where I was too – but on the flip side, a lot of us worked an extra hour sometimes anyway, so it didn’t really feel like much changed on those days.

    8. Llama Wrangler*

      I live in NYC, where I think summer Fridays are more expected. (When I asked my family about it who live in other east coast cities, they were surprised). Also, I work in education, so there’s more of an assumed down time over the summer.

      Current job everyone works a literal half day from July 1-Labor day with no expectation you’ll make up the hours. (This means people who usually clock in at 8:30am are clocking out at 12pm.) People really stick to it across the company.

      Previous job (at a university) summer Fridays ran from Memorial Day-Labor Day for non-union staff and usually the time off started at 3pm, though some years they started at 1pm. There was a little more expectation that you’d work later if you needed to for your work, but people pretty much managed themselves. Union staff (facilities, security, some admin, etc) had a different policy that I don’t remember.

    9. Llellayena*

      Extra hour Monday through Thursday then every other Friday off, half the office at a time. You have to opt in/out at the beginning of the summer so the person tracking timesheets/ billing doesn’t tear their hair out with things changing week to week. And you don’t get to pick which set of Fridays you get.

    10. T. Boone Pickens*

      I had two old clients of mine that were in insurance and had varying degrees of summer hours. One client it was a Memorial Day through Labor Day where everyone knocked off at 1pm on Fridays and you still got paid for a 40 hour work week. They had a reputation as a real ‘nose to the grindstone’ type environment with high turnover and brainstormed some idea on how to soften their image and this is what they came up with. It was very popular and did help boost up morale quite a bit.

      My other client had tremendously good benefits but was below market on compensation and had a pretty stodgy work environment (think dated interior, older equipment, etc). They were getting killed on employee retention because they would hire more entry level folks who would in turn leave for better paying opportunities after getting some experience. They decided to make summer hours permanent and instituted a policy where everyone was allowed to leave at Noon on Fridays. I can’t remember how they worked it out for customer service coverage…I think they went to a rotating schedule with those roles and paid time and a half when you had to work or something like that. They ended up cutting their turnover rate by something like 50%. It was wildly successful.

    11. Sparkles McFadden*

      One job gave us the choice between leaving at 1:00 pm every Friday or taking every other Friday off. Some of us were branded as “essential” and we were told we could select random days off…which worked out better for me.

      One of my retirement jobs was a civil service position. They handled summer Fridays in this way: “Cut your Monday through Thursday lunch down to 45 minutes and skip lunch entirely on Friday and you can leave two hours early…but everyone needs to volunteer to stay to the regular schedule for two Fridays and do everyone else’s work during those two hours.” I found this to be crazy. I volunteered to stay the first two Fridays…and then kept to my regular schedule for the rest of the summer. I couldn’t be bothered with all of the clock watching.

    12. This Old House*

      These comments about mandatory/essentially mandatory summer hours, including longer hours M-Th, are making me anxious. That seems like a “perk” that would have the potential to cost parents a fortune! Many daycares/after care programs charge more for “extended day” without necessarily having a part-time option that would allow you to not pay for Fridays or Friday afternoons.

    13. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      My company is particularly annoying in that full-time employees can make flexible arrangements for summer Fridays but if you’re a contractor like me, you can’t.

      1. anonymousse*

        I’ve worked at places where everybody got Friday afternoons off, staff were asked to make sure at least one person from each team was working since many people take the other half day to make it a full Friday off, and not to hog all the full Fridays off. It worked well.

        I’ve also worked places with various combinations of you can leave a little early every day or work 4 longer days but slightly shorter overall weekly hours and get one day off, some jobs all had to be the same day off, others let people choose planned out with the team so everyone was at least in the office together one day of the week and there was not a day with a whole team out.

        The half day option sucked when I had a ridiculous commute. By the time I got home, half of the extra half day was already gone, and commuting in for a half day just wasn’t worth it. It’s probably better now with everyone being more WFH friendly overall.

  30. Anxious Audit Ass*

    I just started my first salaried job, and I have a few questions about remote work/sick days. We have a generous PTO policy, which is great, but I always feel so awful for texting in the morning of to ask for sick leave. Obviously you never plan to be ill, but. I’ve taken 2 days of unplanned leave within a 5 month timespan, and I’m worried it looks bad. What would you say an appropriate amount of sick days to work days would be?

    In addition, my firm is great about flexibility with remote work. While I prefer to come to the office most days, there are times I’d rather stay at home. Normally, I try and schedule remote days in advance, but there are times, similar to sick days, when I wake up and just don’t feel like going in office. My manager has been ok with this, I’d say I normally work remote unexpectedly on Friday, a day most people in my office also work remote or leave early on. Does it look bad on me to ask to work remote last minute? I’ve probably done it twice since I’ve been working here, but there are also some days where I end up starting my day at the office and ending at home due to migraines from florescents, which I’m pretty transparent about.

    Thanks so much for any feedback, like I said, it’s my first job and I’m still learning how to navigate the office norms.

    1. ThatGirl*

      If you’re sick, you’re sick! I don’t think two times in 5 months is too much at all.

    2. LKW*

      Don’t feel bad about getting sick. It happens. If you have a chronic condition – then talk to your employer about accommodations. Otherwise, people wake up with headaches or get food poisoning. It happens to all of us. The world will continue without you for one day.

      As for remote work – try to plan your days in the office based on who else is going to be there and what meetings you have. On Friday take a look at your next week and determine which days you’ll be online nice and early because you don’t have to commute. It makes little sense to go into the office if no one else is there, or if you’re going but are just sitting at your desk alone, and every meeting you take is with people who are at home or another site.

    3. ExceptionToTheRule*

      This advice will likely vary based on workplace, but you seem to be in a white collar office environment.

      1) Don’t ask for sick leave. Text/call/email your supervisor and tell them you’ll be out sick. Don’t give details unless asked (because of COVID). Right now, in COVID times 2 days in 5 months doesn’t feel excessive.

      2) Remote work – this is really a conversation you should have with your boss. Ask that person directly.

    4. Sparkles McFadden*

      Two sick days in five months is in no way excessive.

      I get where you are coming from and you may, in the future, work for a lunatic who says (as one of my bad bosses once did) “Get sick on your own time! Not company time!” But…when you’re sick, you’re sick. Take your sick day and stay home. I had hope the pandemic would normalize the idea of staying home when you’re sick but probably not.

      With a chronic condition where you could WFH, discuss what’s best with your boss. Most (decent) bosses would rather accommodate your request and have the work getting done.

    5. SnappinTerrapin*

      I agree that 2 days in 5 months is not excessive.

      While our culture is clearly evolving on this point, I still have a strong bias toward actual vocal conversations about “calling in sick.” There is too much risk, in my opinion, in relying on text or email.

      I feel the same way whether I’m the person calling in sick or the supervisor who has to arrange coverage.

      But I also strongly believe adults shouldn’t have to “ask” for sick leave. If you’re sick, just say so, and let your boss make whatever arrangements are necessary. We rarely have the option of “scheduling” our illnesses. They happen on their own schedule, not ours.

      1. CatMintCat*

        My boss says “until you have actually spoken to me, you haven’t called in sick”. He has a family and has busy mornings just like all of us. He often misses a text message or voicemail, so you keep trying until he picks up.

    6. CM*

      Ask your manager these questions! They should understand that you’re new to the workplace and still figuring out norms.

  31. PX*

    Product manager/product owner interviews – what kind of questions or exercises have you come across? I was promoted into my last PM job, but now that I’m specifically job hunting for it – it seems like there is huge variation across the board with what kind of tasks/roles/questions people talk about/expect for this role. I joined the Product Management subreddit and was really surprised by the kind of things that came up (so much talk about APIs!). I feel like I was good at my last job and enjoyed most of the tasks (understanding users, roadmaps, feature definition, collaborating with UX/software devs etc) but I’m sliiiightly second guessing myself now :/

    So any common themes that people have found during interviews? Bonus points for UK and/or more consultancy based environments.

    1. Cookies for Breakfast*

      I’m in the UK, also promoted in my current role, and also job hunting. I’m not senior and don’t have a technical background, so take this with a pinch of salt :)

      I had two interviews for PM roles so far. On the first one, I didn’t make it farther than an initial screen with the hiring manager, and their feedback was I had good core product knowledge but not enough UX experience. On the second one, which also happened to be in my dream industry, I progressed to a second stage interview (after which the company ghosted me and reposted the ad, how kind!).

      I feel the Product Management subreddit can get very deep into technical debates, or discussions about the PM role’s enterpreneurial / commercial aspects. I wonder if part of it is because lots of posters are US-based, and the roles are different overseas? My interviews focused on things like who my team and my stakeholders are, how we manage conflicting priorities, what my thoughts are on MVP, how I collaborate with designers, how I collect and implement user feedback, and similar topics. I didn’t find those questions particularly challenging, though I made a point to answer them honestly, and it must have shown I currently work in an environment that lacks both process and opportunities to learn.

      I was also never asked to do an exercise. The only interviews that required that were for project manager jobs. But again, I’m as junior a product person as they come, and the jobs I applied to that would have involved more specialised interviews were probably also those that rejected me without a second thought.

      I’d love to learn more about your job hunting experience, because I have trouble to defining what roles / environments I’d be a good fit for, and don’t know anyone else going through this in the UK. How are you going about finding jobs to apply to, or deciding something’s worth applying for?

      1. PX*

        Ooh thanks so much for your feedback, thats super helpful. And glad I’m not the only one who thinks that the subreddit definitely skews one way!

        In terms of finding roles to apply for, its honestly just a lot of LinkedIn/Glassdoor searching and also trying to think of industries/companies I’d like to work for that seem like a good fit and checking their websites. I’ve also found there seem to be a fair amount of recruitment companies that focus on this area so I’ve sent in my CV for consideration to a couple of places as well (check out Futureheads/Consortia/Adlib/Oscar Tech (the last one has some interesting roles but seem a bit spammy)).

        In terms of what to apply for, salary is a definite consideration (currently underpaid a fair amount for what I could get). I’ve also been burned by working at a company that dont know much about software development and am definitely keen to make sure I work in places that have some experience of agile, and have a good idea of what they want a PM to be. I see some ads where the description focuses a lot on writing user stories or UX (like you found) and to me, that says they dont have a big enough team or know what a PM should do (which to me is strategy, feature development, roadmaps, prioritization, customer focus, and then reviewing all the stuff a business analyst or UX designer comes up with). Ideally I’m also trying to do it in industries where I’d actually be interested in the product I’m working on – there have definitely been some jobs I’ve looked at and gone…nah, I dont think I could ever get excited about [industry X or niche topic Y].

        I have my first interview coming up and I’ve been told there will be an exercise geared around prioritization, and if I make it to the 2nd round there will be another task as well – so if I get that far I will report back!

        1. Cookies For Breakfast*

          Thank you, I really appreciate your tips! Sounds like we’re searching in similar ways, and it’s great to have a few recruiter names (I gave up looking for jobs on Reed – I never heard back about a single one). I was worried you’d say it’s all about networking, because I don’t know anyone who could help me job hunt.

          Your comment on looking for companies that structure the role properly makes so much sense. Though I’m sure it’s also what’s burning me, because my company has me doing probably 10% product and 90% tech support and training (aka my old job). Writing user stories is the most exciting part, that’s one of few things I do that make me feel I’m worth my title.

          Good luck on your interview, hope it’s a great fit or at least good learning for the next one!

    2. Another Product Manager*

      Hi PX – I have hired product managers and interviewed for PM roles myself. I’m in the US and not a technical PM.
      Exercises for PM candidates I have asked them to complete vary based on the level of the role and their experience.

      For someone fairly junior in their career, I’ve asked them to do a prioritization exercise. Give them a list of potential features and ask how they would prioritize them. I don’t necessarily care about what order they put them in but about the questions they ask during the process. For example – what are the short term / long term goals for the product?

      For a more experienced PM I’ll give a case study and ask them to present their approach for how they will research solutions. I have also asked them to present a product / feature they have delivered and walk us through the different phases.
      If you’re not already reading Mind the Product you may find useful info there. They are based in the UK and have a lot of great PM content. There’s also a group on LinkedIn called the Accidental Product Manager. There are lots of us that came to PM through a roundabout way. Good luck with your search!

  32. FedUp*

    I work for a small company – 8 employees total – that has been remote for the duration of the pandemic. The nature of our work is such that everyone can work remote fairly easily; however, many of us are eager to get back into the office for all of the intangible benefits that being together in person offers. The owner has handled the pandemic well in my opinion, and no one is being pressured to come back in before they are ready.

    All but two of us are fully vaccinated – which is where the issue lies. One (we will call her Jane) cannot get vaccinated for legit medical reasons; the other (let’s call her Sue) refuses to get vaccinated for all the reasons you are hearing from anti-vaxxers – it is too new, don’t trust the government, my body/my choice… etc etc. Both very much want to be back in the office, but Jane (understandably) is not comfortable being there with Sue, even if they were both to wear masks (Sue also does not believe in masks, so it is questionable how much she’d actually comply). Personally I feel like Sue should be the one to stay home (her job can be done fully remote) since she is the one choosing to not get vaccinated; I don’t think Jane should be “punished” and essentially not able to be in the office simply because Sue won’t get vaccinated. The owner has been wringing her hands trying to figure out how to handle it, as she says she “doesn’t want to upset either Jane or Sue.”

    1. WellRed*

      I have zero f**ks for people like Sue. Sue has a choice, Sue has made her choice, Sue gets to live with the consequences.

      1. FedUp*

        That is my feeling as well. My boss (who I typically think is great) is trying to figure out a way to “fair” to both of them, and it is making me (and several other co-workers) furious that she is even considering accommodating her nonsense. I think she is leaning towards having Jane come in some days and Sue the others. Which perhaps if BOTH had medical reasons for not getting vaccinated would be the most fair way to handle. But in this situation Sue has made a choice that Jane is unable to make.

        1. LKW*

          There is no fair here. Jane has to deal with the unfairness of having medical issues. She shouldn’t have to deal with Sue’s lack of compassion and potential threat to Jane’s well being.

        2. Observer*

          Well, if your boss is really thinking about fairness, it’s simple. Everyone needs to get vaccinated. The ONLY exceptions are for legitimate, documented medical reasons. Everyone else stays home.

          That’s fair. It’s the same rule for everyone. You make exceptions ONLY for the people who CANNOT follow the rule.

      2. StellaBella*

        Same. Company policy can be to enforce vaccibes to protect all I think if it is a private firm ( not 100% sure ) so can this be discussed? Esp if another employee would be endangered.

      3. JelloStapler*

        Same. These are the people who just don’t want to do anything to help anybody else because it might inconvenience themselves.

      4. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

        Agreed. We shouldn’t have to tiptoe around anti-vaxxers and people who don’t believe in masks. This is a public health crisis and these people have been part of the problem. Enough already.

    2. Pippa K*

      I would be delighted to be brought in on a consulting basis, entirely pro bono, to save the boss the discomfort and stress of handling Sue. Sue would work from home and Sue would be given to understand that she would not return to the office until she was no longer putting her colleagues at risk. At no extra charge, I would be happy to do this firmly enough to leave a little scorched mark where Sue had been standing.

      WellRed is exactly right. Here is Sue’s choice, and here are the reasonable consequences.

    3. Lady Lynn Waterton of Bellashire*

      I say quietly give Jane the choice and see if she prefers to be in the office without Sue or at home. From there, let Sue know if she’s permitted in the office accordingly (without blaming on Jane).

      1. FedUp*

        Jane definitely wants to be in the office, but not with unvaccinated/Covid-minimizing Sue

        1. Lady Lynn Waterton of Bellashire*

          Then 100000%, office policy = unvax coworkers stay home unless medically exempt. Up to you whether you want to require documentation; I think either way is valid.

    4. Double A*

      How is this even a challenging choice? Your boss can make a policy– in office workers must be vaccinated unless they have a medical exemption. Bam. Done.

      If Sue doesn’t like the side effects of her choice, she can make a different one.

        1. Observer*

          No competent doctor is signing off that Sue cannot get vaccinated for medical reasons.

          1. FedUp*

            I would not put it past Sue to try this — but unfortunately for her she has been making a LOT of noise of about not WANTING the vaccine from a “personal choice”/”Covid not a big deal” standpoint, and zero mention of not being ABLE to get the vaccine. So if she does show up with a doctor’s note, everyone will know she is full of it.

    5. PollyQ*

      Not wanting to upset people is OK as a general goal, but it can’t be the absolute deciding factor when making a business call.

    6. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      I’d say the hell with it and fire Sue. It’s probably a good thing I’m not a real manager.

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Sue is a vector for everyone in your company not just Jane. The vaccines are great but not 100%, and not everyone’s immune system will respond to it perfectly. An elderly family member may not be fully protected, or a family member on immunosuppressants. Children under 12 are not even eligible for vaccine yet. And a kid 12-16 who got vax#1 on day 1 of eligibility won’the be “fully marinated” until mid June.
      All of this is a recipe for variants.
      Keep Sue home. Not Jane.

  33. WellRed*

    On the subject of return to office: Did anyone else read the article with the Saks CEO who not only wants them back in the office, he’s making it completely open (he still has an office of course) with get this: communal round tables for everyone to sit it. That’s right, let’s make it even worse.

    1. Twisted Lion*

      Basically my work this week. They have scheduled 100% return even though our larger organization says stay at 40%.

    3. Mina, The Company Prom Queen*

      Some people get their jollies by making thing things worse for the people who work for them or with them. There’s a special place in hell reserved for those people.

  34. Lucille B.*

    This came up in another thread and I’m curious enough to get more input here. As the person in charge of selecting office space and paying rent/budgeting, I’m curious how many people who want a hybrid schedule are willing to give up an individual desk for it. I remember hotdesking being loathed in the before times, and it just seems like it would be even worse now with the shared surface germs. So, hybrid-promoters, what are your thoughts on hotdesks now?

    1. WellRed*

      We are going to this, downsizing office with hot desking. I will be wiping down surfaces.

      1. WellRed*

        To clarify, I’m just into the idea of wiping down surfaces to prevent transmission of colds, etc.

        1. Artemesia*

          A few years ago my software developer son told us he had cut his colds by two thirds by teaching himself to not touch his face, wiping down keyboards and washing his hands after public transport. We started assiduously doing the same (we ride the bus a lot) and so we always immediately washed hands when arriving at a restaurant or home — and it worked. (alcohol gel is a good short stop but it is not effective against norovirus, so hand washing is still best). This all became a good habit with COVID.

          COVID is primarily airborne — yes cleaning surfaces is wise — there is no zero risk there, but the risk is sitting in shared space with other unmasked people.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I’ve gotten over the surface-germ thing. In regards to Covid, it turns out not to be a significant vector. And I think we’re all more comfortable taking extra time to wash our hands and clean our workspaces, and I expect that to continue.

      Most of what I’d be touching would be my laptop, coffee cup, etc – and those aren’t going to be shared, are they?

      Give me a small rolling cabinet to put my stuff in, and make sure that we’ve got good chairs throughout the office, and I’d be just fine with hot-desking.

      1. FedUp*

        Same. As someone who can be rather messy, hot desking would be GOOD for me…as I’d be forced to pick up after myself every day and not let clutter accumulate :)

      2. RabbitRabbit*

        It’s only not significant in that most places have far worse transmission via airborne method. Places where it’s under control like NZ still track and find surface-transmission cases.

          1. Sc@rlettNZ*

            Yeah, I’d be interested in that too. I’m in NZ and I don’t recall any cases where it’s been confirmed as surface transmission (there have been a couple of cases a while ago where the cause wasn’t immediately apparent. One they ended up putting down to air transmission in an isolation hotel corridor and I can’t recall what happened with the other case. That was a community transmission case where they couldn’t find the source).

    3. ThatGirl*

      We had this discussion as “back to work” talks were starting at my office, because the team has grown beyond what there’s currently space for. I basically said I really wanted a permanent desk, enough to be there at least 4 days a week, whereas one of my teammates was willing to give hers up because she’d prefer to primarily be WFH.

      My opinion on that might change if I had a dedicated workspace at home, but I don’t right now – I work from the couch or the kitchen table – and I like having a proper desk set up with space that’s really “mine” to personalize.

    4. RabbitRabbit*

      My office was out of desks before the pandemic, and either hotdesking or actually packing in two per cubicle was being discussed. We already had some built-in smaller hotdesk setups that were being used full time.

      It’s worse now that we’ve taken on more people. I said I’d be OK with it if they provide little lockers/locked rolling small file cabinets/etc. to put our work stuff in, and let us have our own keyboard/mouse setups (because everyone likes their own).

      But they haven’t figured out how to deal with the “out of desks” problem quite yet so we don’t have any info on a projected return date, except for that it’s not now.

    5. MissGirl*

      My company has always had a flexible, hybrid workforce. For those of us who want to come into the office three or more days a week, you can have an assigned desk. The rest of us hot desk with a reservation system. Using the reservations system has been spotty, however.

      One thing that is necessary for me with hot desking is having an assigned locker where I can keep things like a charger, wipes, extra layer, and other stuff I don’t want to haul around.

      1. Has anyone in this family ever SEEN a chicken?*

        Does everyone have their own locker? My company is going towards a similar system, but the lockers are going to be day use only. This seems like a recipe for disaster. Not to mention that people who come in 2-3 days/week aren’t going to want to lug their laptop home every day.

    6. ATX*

      I would be okay with a hot desk if it were not in an open office space. For example, our office has cubicles that are pretty secluded, the walls are 5 feet high except for one side where the entrance is.

      I would only agree to a set-up like that where I’d give up my desk if the desk I returned to was secluded like that, and not open and right next to people. If it were in an open space, I’d find an area like the cafe, lounge, or somewhere else to work. I hate working right next to someone :)

      1. Has anyone in this family ever SEEN a chicken?*

        Same. My appetite for hot desking would depend on what each station looks like. The more privacy, the better. Also, there better be 2 monitors! And a relative uniformity among stations so there are no “good” and “bad” desk delineations.

    7. ratatatcat*

      I know someone who pre-pandemic was fulltime in the office hotdesking, and I would absolutely hate that. I think a lot of people still think of hotdesking in those terms – but with a hybrid schedule the whole point is not being in the office so much. If I was mostly wfh and only going in, say, 2 days a week… at that point I think there’s not so much of an attachment to the office compared to because one is no longer spending the vast majority of waking hours there.

    8. Sit in Syrup*

      Hot desking wouldn’t be my first choice, but I am more open to it now than I ever would have been pre-pandemic. If that’s the price I pay for teleworking part-time / most-time, I think it’s fair. Having a locker or locked drawer to keep some supplies would help (big enough for a laptop – it’s nice to leave it at work if I’m working a few days in a row).

    9. ShysterB*

      My firm was in the midst of renegotiating its office lease when the shutdown occurred, and ultimately reached a deal that gives it the right to give back up to 50% of its space over the next few years. We’ve had multiple surveys over the past few months asking people if they would be willing, in exchange for a largely WFH arrangement, to give up a permanent office/desk and/or agree to use only internal offices without windows on the few days in the office. I couldn’t have answered YES YES YES fast enough.

    10. AndersonDarling*

      I think it comes down to how much time I expect to be in the office. ie, if I’m at home 3 days a week, then my home is my real office. If I’m in the office 3 days a week, then I expect that to be my permanent office and to have a quality docking screen and workstation.
      I’m planning to only occasionally going into the office, so I don’t expect to have a cube, desk, or even a docking station.

    11. pancakes*

      It’s not specific to hot-desking, but I want to recommend dedicated phone rooms. Small, relatively soundproof, and the doors should be glass or have windows so people can see whether the room is in use. It’s so much better for people to have a place to make the occasional call to their doctor, their kid, etc., than have them awkwardly hovering around conference rooms.

      1. new kid*

        oh my god, this! it’s been an issue in literally every office space I’ve worked in and the solution seems so simple/doesn’t even require much space (v. private offices/other potential solutions).

      2. The New Wanderer*

        We had those in one building and they were so useful. There were rules against using a privacy room as an office for the day, but you could go have a few hours of uninterrupted time to take a meeting or personal call away from the cube farm. The next building had an open floor plan and no privacy rooms, so people routinely stood in hallways or outside to get some semblance of privacy, which is not great. I have heard our return-to-office building will be hot desking and no privacy rooms, and with hybrid schedules there will still be a lot of online meetings and so much more noise in the office.

    12. Elenna*

      My office is going to hybrid, probably with hotdesking (haven’t heard anything for sure yet, we’re not going in until fall at the earliest so I doubt any firm decisions have been made). I’m reluctantly okay with it. Obviously I’d prefer to have my own desk (wouldn’t everyone?) but it’s perfectly reasonable that the company doesn’t want to pay for office space that will sit empty for the majority of the week. If you ask me to pick between hotdesking and going in 1-2 times a week, versus going into the office most of the time and having my own desk, I’ll pick the former every time.

      That being said, I’m not in the habit of having much on my desk besides a computer, the only things there before COVID were a notebook, a mug, and some papers that honestly could have been thrown out. And I don’t really care much about chair/mouse/keyboard setup, as long as the chairs aren’t terrible (which they aren’t). And I don’t get sick easily so I’m not too worried about surface germs, especially since we won’t be going in till after most people are vaccinated. So YMMV.

    13. TWW*

      I’d be ok with it if each desk had an array of large monitors and plenty of space to spread out.

      Touching shared surfaces would be a non-issue for me. Things and hands are easily cleaned.

    14. StressedButOkay*

      Yeah, my entire team has given up our offices in trade for full WFH. When we need to come in, we’ll be able to grab space. I used to hate, hate, haaaate the idea of hotdesking previously but that was when it was for every day (I have friends who never had a dedicated space and had to come into the office each day). Now when it’s just a few times a month, I’m okay with it.

      We’re being given lots of sanitary wipes and we bring our laptops in with us, so in regards to germs, we’re doing the best we can there.

      1. Has anyone in this family ever SEEN a chicken?*

        This is a really good point. Hot desking can be annoying when it’s 5 days/week, but it’s probably more tolerable when you have the flexibility to WFH most/half of the time.

        1. StressedButOkay*

          Oh yeah, the idea of not having ‘my’ space every day, especially during busy season when I need a door or a quiet space and can’t guarantee that? Full body shudder, no thanks. But a handful of times a month when I’m coming in mostly because of meetings, that’s more than okay.

          And it means I’m not taking up a dedicated office for someone who wants to be in more often.

    15. Anonymous Hippo*

      Personally, I want hybrid, but I wouldn’t give up a private space. I could deal with going back to a cube rather than having a private office, although that seems unlikely given my work needs, but a hot desking or even an open floor plan situation would be a definite deal breaker for me.

    16. Elizabeth West*

      Absolutely not; it would be a deal-breaker for me.

      I actually prefer to be in the office. Ideally, I want the flexibility to work from home during bad weather or minor illness. But I don’t want to share my desk or come in every day and not know where I’m going to be sitting. I want a space that’s mine.

      If I worked from home ALL the time and came in only to attend meetings, that would be different.

    17. Analyst Editor*

      I think if you’re coming in once a week, it is perfectly reasonable to have hot-desking, because corporate real estate is expensive, and then it’s basically storage for your random knickknacks. If germs are a concern, you can encourage people to wipe down, provide supplies, or include it as part of the regular cleaning routine (though that might be expensive for the company and people might not like having computers touched… so maybe not).

    18. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      What I’ve noticed with hotdesking in the past is that the desks are often too close together, not just for the prevention of germs but for being able to work without overhearing That One Guy’s phone calls.

    19. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I have been suggesting *shared* desks for some time. Assigned cubicle split between 2 people who will decide on a rational layout and treat the workspace as a true 5S shared space. (Everything returned to default at end of shift, wipe down at the end, agreed-upon use of storage, inbox, which wall is yours/mine to decorate, food policy, etc.) 2 days a week on-site plus alternating Fridays.
      The pandemic bonus is that it makes exposure tracking possible because people will still be in predictable spaces.
      True hot-desking would be a nightmare for so many reasons–imagine starting at 6am to get a quiet-area choice, and at 9, the loud-talker only has one choice left next to you.

  35. E*

    I just found myself using the phrase “Sure, there’s more than one way to skin a cat” in a reply to an auditor.

    Is that a weird or even inappropriate phrase to be using? It made perfect sense in context – we’d tried and failed to get one type of audit evidence, and he suggested seeking out quite a different one that had been used in the prior year. I was signalling agreement.

    1. No Tribble At All*

      It’s not weird, but it could be close to inappropriate? I don’t like that phrase because I love cats. It wouldn’t turn me off a coworker–and I certainly wouldn’t report it to HR or anything– but if they used it all the time, I suppose I’d ask them politely to stop. It’s not something I’d jump on the first time I heard it.

    2. Bucky Barnes*

      It’s common enough but I personally have been trying to move away from it because of the imagery.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        I trained myself out of it by subbing in a vegetable. “More than one way to peel a potato.”

        1. Lady Lynn Waterton of Bellashire*

          That’s a good one! I agree that there’s nothing wrong with the cat one (I wouldn’t blink twice), but why not swap it out with something totally innocuous, just on the off chance that it brings up some negative imagery or memory for someone.

          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            Sometimes I get extra silly when it comes to cliches. “There’s more than one way to juggle a chicken.” My favorite one is not often work-appropriate, but I enjoy “Well, that one sure wasn’t the brightest knife (or sharpest light bulb) in the mixed metaphor.”

        2. RagingADHD*

          Substituting an unusual phrase for a common one attracts attention to the change. That might be what you want in some situations, and not others. Depending on context, there can be significant downsides to sounding twee.

          Like, I have one client I can think of off the top of my head, who would’nt even notice. One would notice and think it’s nice. And one with whom it would undermine my credibility to be so precious.

          Sometimes the best thing is either use an idiom, or say what it means “There’s more than one way to accomplish this,” rather than make up something new.

    4. JillianNicola*

      I’m probably going to be in the minority here but almost every single common phrase or idiom has a horrifying background. We’re a horrifying species, tbh. It’s nearly impossible to use any kind of language without someone somewhere coming up with a reason why you you shouldn’t. I say this all the time, I wouldn’t blink twice. But I do understand why it might upset some people. (Caveat: not applicable to any -ist imagery)

    5. LKW*

      If you don’t work for PETA – I think it’s fine. No one is actually recommending skinning a cat. You simply used a colloquialism.

    6. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      As long as you’re not working in a Veterinarian’s office, I think you’re fine.

    7. RagingADHD*

      This is an extremely common and normal phrase to use. If you want to stop using it because you don’t like it, fine. But no reasonable person is going to consider it inappropriate for the office (unless you work at, like a vet or an animal rights charity).

    8. WFH with Cat*

      Personally, I no longer use that phrase, which I learned as a child and had to train myself to not use, because the imagery is kind of awful and could upset some people. (Including me, life-long cat lover.) Similarly, I’ve stopped “I could just shoot someone!” “I’m gonna nail his feet to the floor!” — which I think came up here in AAM recently? — and other similarly dramatic phrases that can conjure up violent images.

      I like the “potato” version Red Reader the Adulting Fairy offered. That’s a great substitution.

    9. Shorty*

      I find myself needing to express that sentiment rather frequently, and I’ve switched to “there’s more than one way to slice a pizza,” which conveys the same thought and isn’t icky.

      1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

        But… there isn’t more than one way to slice a pizza, unless you’re a monster cutting it into stripes…

          1. pancakes*

            Scissors are not uncommon in Rome and at Roman-style pizzerias, used for pizza al taglio. It works well!

    10. Sara without an H*

      I’m familiar with the expression, but maybe it’s a little old fashioned? I probably wouldn’t use it at work — we have a lot of passionate cat lovers here.

    11. MissCoco*

      More than one road to Timbuktu is pretty close
      6 of one, half dozen of the other is similar, but not quite right for your situation

      You could have some fun you like mixing your metaphors:
      “There’s more than one way to herd a cat”
      “There’s more than one way to burn bridges”
      “There’s more than one way to count your chickens”

    12. 30 yea*

      I think I would have said “I understand what you’re saying, that could be an alternative”. I’m not sure if you’re referring to financial or medical device/pharm auditing. You can give a form of agreement by saying “I understand” without saying “Yes”. In my experience in medical devices, saying yes can sometimes get you in trouble.

  36. anonon*

    I find that once I have been in a job for a year, I start to get bored. I will hit 2 years at my current job in September, and I like the position and it pays well enough, but I’ve always left prior jobs before the 2 year mark hits (because of boredom and restlessness). Is being bored a reason to look for a new job, or should I talk to my supervisor about finding ways to grow in my role? I have been working full-time for about 12 years and this boredom timeline has been an issue from my first full-time job, and in my last 5 prior jobs as well. Any advice would be much appreciated!

    1. ATX*

      I’m someone like you, bored pretty easily and always wanting something fresh. Both in professional and personal life. I’ve been at my current job for 3 years and I love it. I’m bored AF sometimes, but the job is great, my boss is awesome, pay is stellar, and I have a lot of flexibility.

      I do daily gratitude journals to help me with my boredom, being thankful for the things I have and not needing to jump around to more “exciting” things just because I’m bored. You never know what you’ll get when you go to a new company.

      I’ve also accepted that what I do at my work is less important than how I’m treated, the flexibility I have, and the salary + benefits. My work is not glamorous by any means, but I enjoy every other aspect. It took me a long time to accept that, I’m 33 now and had always struggled with it and job hopped every 1.5 – 2 years until 2018.

    2. Ronin*

      Actually (I’m the same as you) I’ve been able to create an interesting career in my industry (which is also well-paid) by being a consultant. My gigs are usually a year or 18 months, and every client and project is an interesting new opportunity so I continue to grow and stay interested in the work I’m doing.

      I realize people don’t really talk about that as a career path here, but it has been interesting and relevant to me in a way that my previous work slogging as a salaried employee was not.

      I highly encourage you to look into it if you’re someone who likes to continue learning (and don’t like all of the politics of being a salaried employee)

    3. irene adler*

      Speaking with your supervisor about ways to grow in the role will give management the “warm fuzzies” to think that you are serious about the company and want to stay there long-term.
      That’s a good thing!
      At worst, nothing will change. Then you’ll know it’s time to find a new position elsewhere.

    4. Artemesia*

      I was lucky to have a job where I could totally change what I do — at least 70% on my own initiative and so when I would get bored, I’d do a new research project, teach new courses, develop a new program, write a book etc — I was on about a 5 year cycle.

      Is there anyway you can see ways to do something different within your organization and approach your boss with some ideas for promotion or sideways moves to have ‘new challenges’ — tell her you are feeling stale in the position and would like to try Z or Y to meet some new challenges and contribute more to the organization. If you are interested in management, explore potential promotion tracks and maybe get some support for training in the necessary skills to move forward. Taking on a masters or technical training program in itself might change up what you are doing day by day and running things has its own variety of challenge.

      It is probably good for your career development and future to stick with something for 4 or 5 years and perhaps you can manage that by changing your role within the org.

    5. Sparkles McFadden*

      I worked for a large corporation and I used to change departments every four or five years because I was ready to move on to something new. It’s stave off the boredom for a couple of years by taking on additional tasks and getting training when possible.

    6. allathian*

      Honestly, it’s going to start looking like you’re a job-hopper. Is there any way you could grow in your current environment or in your current job so that you won’t be bored?

      If all else fails, maybe try something that involves different projects all the time, like consulting? Or maybe temping, if you can find something beyond entry-level.

      I have a friend who’s like you, she gets bored very easily at her job. She’s become a change management consultant and her job is literally to go into a company that’s failing for whatever reason. She goes in, changes things so they return to profitability, and moves on. The longest she’s ever worked on a project is about 3 years.

  37. Jasmine*

    I’ve been SO unmotivated at work this week, and got very little done. The question is, do I log in one day over the weekend to try and catch up (in depth performance reviews for my team) or just draw a line under this week and resolve (probably futilely) to do better from now on?

    1. RabbitRabbit*

      Can you maybe split the difference and on the weekend, do one single review? That might be enough of a little feeling of accomplishment to start Monday off better, and that way you’re also not slaving away on the weekend and resenting the time you’re spending on work.

    2. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Me too! I am going to set a timer for an hour on Saturday and see what I can get done. When I have an unproductive week it’s sometimes a sign that I need a break, so I don’t try to make it all up on the weekend.

    3. Ins mom*

      I’d suggest working on this on the weekend. For me, if I put it off it will be “one more damn thing “ all next week. Also if you are in US then next week winds down toward the Memorial Day weekend and you will either be in crunch time for month end or have preholiday give-a-cares

      1. llama costume designer*

        I’ve started taking breaks if I’m working late, so instead of working straight through, I’ll stop for dinner, maybe watch a tv show, take a nap, whatever, then go back and do a little more work. I’m able to WFH so this might not work as well from an office unless you don’t mind/are able to take work home.

  38. AnonymooseToday*

    My manager just gave their notice and while I’m happy for them, it feels like one more big question in my life right now. I live in an area with COL exploding (I know that’s everywhere right now), and rapidly coming to the point where my rent is getting out of control (and they’re partially renovating my apartment so it’ll probably be even worse when I need to renew my lease) and I can’t afford to upkeep a house on my salary alone and there’s rapidly becoming a lack of houses in my price range anyway. I’m single and have no desire for a random roommate in my mid-thirties.

    My previous manager was largely absent which meant I did pretty mediocre in my job, didn’t have a good rep with the unit supervisor or rest of the place, and didn’t get to grow. It wasn’t until my current manager who came on, did I really start getting better at my job because they trusted me enough to give me chances and different projects. And I’ve done great! And now everyone is saying I should apply for their job. Well I did last time and the unit supervisor basically told me I shouldn’t apply (without giving me a decent reason), did anyway, got an interview that wasn’t great cause it was my first internal one and I didn’t know how to treat it. And I was honestly okay with it because I decided I didn’t really want the job. I have the same feelings about the job, the unit supervisor is also a largely absent manager, doesn’t quite know how to delegate, so this position has a lot of autonomy, make it own, etc. I do better with structure, and I don’t know if I quite have the confidence (though I’m working on it) to do what needs to be done for the project mgmt aspect (definitely running inference with strong personalities in other depts) though I will say the unit supervisor does have your back when needed.

    Anyway just wanted to talk it through/vent. It would be a nice pay bump though not quite as much as I’m really looking for with my next job, but would help temporarily take away housing anxiety. And there are very few (maybe 3-4) jobs in the last 5+ years in my area I could apply for so it seems a little stupid not to apply for a job in an area I love and want to stay in. But also seems stupid to waste time when I don’t know if I can afford to live here much longer even maybe on the manager salary.

    1. Aphrodite*

      Apply. Applying doesn’t mean you will not make it nor does it mean you have to take it if you do get it. Study Alison’s advice about resumes and cover letters and interviews. It wouldn’t be a waste of time as it is something you will always be able to use. And this could be, if nothing else, good practice for future

  39. Confused Anon*

    Any advice for not taking things personally in a toxic environment, especially if people are bullies and like to push buttons? There is one guy that I work with and we have to interact, so I can’t avoid or distance myself from him. He loves to get a rise out of people and cause trouble, but it’s subtle so it’s nothing that you can go to the boss about without looking like a fool.

    They’re also very competitive socially- one woman brags about how she went out to lunch with some other coworkers. I don’t know them so I don’t care, but it’s just annoying.

    They also like teaming up with other people and give me a hard time. It’s sort of a pack-mentality type of thing, so I feel outnumbered.

    I get upset and fall for it *every* time, even if I try not to. I try to do the “observe them as if they’re a different species” thing, but it doesn’t always help. I’m just tired of going home upset/frustrated. I’m looking for a new position, but until then, any advice is much appreciated.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Can you turn it around mentally?

      The reason they’re picking on *you* is because you’re not an insecure, weak-willed, petty-minded jerk that they can rope into their circle. It’s really a compliment.

    2. moss*

      This is so hard. We are humans and we are wired to seek social approval so start with not beating yourself up for falling for it. They are the ones breaking the social contract not you.

      Can you develop a walking habit at lunch or during a coffee break to get yourself a mental reset?

      Hopefully you are looking for another job. Not everywhere is like this.

    3. Double A*

      Can you pretend you’re working in a sitcom? The anthropologist thing implies a kind of fascination with your subjects. Sitcom characters you can feel free to think of as absurd jerks who you just laugh at (keep the laugh track in your head).

    4. RagingADHD*

      Can you practice just not saying anything? Or a completely noncommittal noise like “huh” or “okay.”

      It takes awareness and impulse control, but you can learn them with practice.

      When I’m trying to change a habit, one way to stay aware of myself is to wear something mildly annoying, like a rubber band around my wrist. It’s the old “string around your finger” technique, but less obvious.

    5. Mill Miker*

      The interesting thing with people trying to get a rise out of you is that a well-executed counter-attack can look the same as letting it slide and being above it all.

      You’ve tried ignoring it, so maybe try channeling the frustration into pointedly ignoring it. Try and get a rise out of them with how unaffected you are. Don’t observe them as if they’re a different species, observe them as if they’re your opponent in a chess mach.

      If this bothers them enough that they want to complain, their own subtlety means that they can’t accuse you of anything without explaining exactly what they were doing and what how they were expecting you to react.

    6. CheeseWhizzard*

      I’ve started looking for work elsewhere and I’m already more immune to my boss’s undermining, bullying antics, because I feel like I’m the one with control now. Maybe try that? It doesn’t sound like it’s worth staying.

    7. Slipping The Leash*

      I’ve worked with a person like this for 21 years. He’s a lousy human being by every possible measure, but very good at his job and slightly senior to me. The key is to never, ever show that you’re effected. It may not feel like it in the moment, but that IS winning. I know it’s hard to not be socially connected at work, but try to keep in mind that there are some people you just really, REALLY don’t want to be any closer to than strictly necessary. When they’re being asshats just stop, raise an eyebrow, give them a look that says “yes, I see what you are doing there, very clever,” and then just shake your head a little in silent disbelief and walk on. Your scorn for their bs will take all the fun out of this for them.

    8. Hi*

      Prepare for an extinction burst even though in this case there probably won’t be complete extinction. At first they’ll try harder and harder to get a reaction.

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’ll give you a contrary point of view. Any one thing this bully says might be ridiculous to take to the manager, but the pattern is another matter. You could approach it as knowing that he is difficult to work with and asking for suggestions like you just asked us. you might want to ask if anyone else has reported issues with this person, or if the person has reported any issues with you. All of that will get a good manager to start paying more attention, and that bully could get caught in the act. If nothing else, you’re on record if he escalates. Yes you might be told “Oh he’s just like that, you need to have a thicker skin” … which is a manager problem and a great reason to develop my resume. Because insulting behavior doesn’t belong in an office and it’s management role to stop it when it occurs.

  40. Striped Balloon*

    The director of my niche unit (a part of a much larger organization) is leaving. Our two assistant directors will absorb their duties in the meantime until we get a new director, a process that I know will take a while. We had a manager leave earlier this year and they’re filling that position now, but one of the ADs will have to train the new hire, whoever it is. I’m getting trained to do some more things. I and a few others are training some of our newer lower level hires. I’m really nervous about workload moving forward– personally, for other individuals, and for the unit as a whole. I’m not sure if it’s just my anxiety or if there’s actually a way to navigate this change at work.

  41. balanceofthemis*

    I am currently job hunting, but I’m not sure how to list the job I have now. The organization I work for is community organization that serves a specific religious population, and the name of the religion is in the name. I am a member of that religion, but not all my co-workers are, in fact they have a very strong non-discrimination policy. I am concerned that if I list the organization’s name I will face religious discrimination, as there is a lot of it going around right now.

    And if you think I’m being paranoid, my brother was rejected from a job a couple years ago in the same city I now live in precisely because the hiring manager found out our religion and said in a email to her boos “I’m not hiring a f***ing (religion).

    I’m considering listing the company name on my resume and applications as Confidential. Is that acceptable, or does it raise red flags? Shoudl I just suck it up and take the risk of being discriminated against?

    I’d especially be interested in hearing from people on the hiring side.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I would not list an employer as Confidential; there’s no way for me as a hiring manager to verify anything about that work experience or contextualize it or know if it’s even real.

      1. balanceofthemis*

        The skills and experience are highly relevant, which is why I have to list it, how would you recommend I mitigate potential discrimination?

        1. PollyQ*

          I’m not sure you can — bigots gonna bigot — and I’m also not sure you should. Do you really want to work for an organization or a manager that thinks it’s OK to discriminate against people because of their religion? Yes, I understand that people need jobs in order to pay for fripperies like food, housing, etc., but this isn’t something you should need to mitigate or even tolerate while you’re finding a new job. That kind of discrimination is flagrantly illegal in the US and immoral everywhere.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      Could you put a blurb about the company after the name?
      “Religious Community Care: A non-denominational charity focused on providing basic needs to all members of the Big City.”
      Also, I think your brother’s experience was more rare than normal. Generally speaking, the hiring managers I have worked with don’t automatically associate employees are the same as their employers. (Did I say that right?)

      1. balanceofthemis*

        Except the organization is denominational, we provide services specifically for people of the religious group in our name, not for everyone in the city.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Is there a corporate-y version of the name that might give context or present it differently? Or an acronym?

      Like as an analogy, “Community Care Office of Atlantic District of the ELCA” instead of The Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, Atlantic District Community Care Office”

      1. balanceofthemis*

        I could use the acronym, but a quick google search will tell them what it is regardless, and then it may look like I was trying to hide something. Unfortunately there iis no corporate-y version of the name.

        1. Malika*

          I had a different situation wherein the company name would have elicited emotions (this was more of a reputation thing). I used the mother company’s name and it has never been an issue, five jobs further down the road. An acronym or their legal name might just be what you need to get past the prejudice (it does have to be authentic. I scoured the legal papers for mine before i left!). Once you are in a job interview with them, they get the totality of your being. You are still going to encounter bigots that wil shut down, but that is a far lower percentage than the large swathe of people who knowingly or unknowingly let their prejudice cloud their overall attitude to a job candidate.

    4. Glynn*

      Massive red flags! That’s just not something you can do. If I got a resume that did that, I’d be very concerned about the professionalism and understanding of norms of that candidate.

      You need to list the actual employer. Yes, some may discriminate based on it, sadly. But that just screens out the bigoted employers you wouldn’t want to work for anyway, right?

    5. JRR*

      Potential employers can see that I’m a minority just by looking at me or reading my name. Workplace discrimination needs to be eliminated, but I don’t think the solution is for us jobseekers to try to hide our religion or ethnicity.

      1. balanceofthemis*

        Historically speaking, hiding has been something of a survival technique. And given that I have lost friends and faced violence when people have found out my religion, hiding it has become sonething of a habit.

        1. JRR*

          If it’s a matter of survival, maybe just delete that job from your resume and come up with some explanation for the apparent employment gap?

          Having a gap on your resume isn’t great, but at least it won’t put you at risk of violence.

        2. ThatGirl*

          Here’s the thing: you can’t have it both ways. You can either list the organization and your accomplishments, or you can leave it off. I’m sorry. I know that’s not the answer you wanted, but you’re going to have to decide which is more important. Maybe you can find similar work at an org that’s friendly to your religion without explicitly identifying it and eventually remove it from your resume.

    6. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I agree with the other posters that you have to list the name of the organization. But that’s a good thing! You’re screening out companies/hiring managers who are discriminatory. It’s much better to get passed over for an interview than to get a job only to find out you’re working for a bigot, right?

  42. PeachCube*

    What tips can you offer on switching careers in your late 20s? I have been in healthcare HR and onboarding for the past 7 years and now looking for a change to project/data management. I have plenty of transferrable skills but I’m at a loss on how to put them together on my resume.

    2. MissGirl*

      Reach out to people in those jobs and ask for informational interviews so see exactly what skills are most important. Look at LinkedIn profiles of people who are in the jobs you seek.

  43. not a lady*

    Suggestions on how to get someone to stop addressing every email and meting with me in it as “Hey lady! Hey Ladies!”, but also without outing myself as gender nonconforming? Do I just need to deal with it forever? (The same person also makes fat shamming/diabetic jokes frequently that’d I also would love to stop…)

    I live in a “liberal” city, it’s a supremely conservative state. I see people use pronouns in signatures sometimes, but I rarely see people asking others for a pronoun, or otherwise leading me to believe that I wouldn’t be “othered” like I have been in the past.

    1. Olivia*

      I am a cis woman and “ladies” in a work context, especially in writing, really bothers me too. (“Gentlemen” also bothers me, for the same reasons and also when I am frequently the only woman in a meeting, so feels like I’m just being ignored.)

      Can you ask that this person not use terms that unnecessarily put focus on gender? I think you could likely do this without outing yourself as gender nonconforming. I’m not sure how you feel about “guys” (some people feel that is gender neutral and some don’t), but could be a useful alternative.

      1. Clisby*

        What about “All”? “Guys”? “Folks”? I’m a 67-year-old cis woman and really dislike being addressed as “lady” also. And I live in Charleston, SC, for heaven’s sake. That is NOT appropriate in a professional context. (Well, maybe if your professional context is that you’re all magicians, and the term “Ladies and Gentlemen” is common.)

    2. TX Lizard*

      Ask to be referred to by name. Even as a gender conforming person, it would piss me off to be called “hey lady”. I think it would be very reasonable to tell them to stop it without outing yourself. Make it about the sexism of calling a group of professionals by a gendered term, rather than about your own identity (not in any way meant to minimize or dismiss that, but I don’t think anyone would assume that if you take issue with it you must be GNC).

      1. Artemesia*

        “When you address me as ‘hey lady’. I feel like I am in a Jerry Lewis comedy routing. Would you mind addressing me as (your name)”

        1. TX Lizard*

          Or just turn the tables and start addressing the offender(s) “old sport”, “comrade”, or “friends, Romans, countrymen”.

        2. Donkey Hotey*

          See, my mind went to the Beastie Boys song rather than Jerry Lewis. Same destination, different route.

    3. Sparkles McFadden*

      Ugh…

      I worked in mostly male environments where I’d be negated by “Hey guys” or “Gentlemen.” One person would belatedly add “Gentlemen…and lady” which was annoying. I asked that person to use “everybody” “all”
      or even “people.”

      Really “everyone” or “everybody” is an easy switch and it just sounds better.

      1. Pippa K*

        *dons pedant bonnet, ties fetching bow under chin*
        The singular “lady” and “gentleman” are not terms of address, so the correct traditional form of address for groups whose members are all the same gender with the exception of one person is “Ladies and sir” or “Madam and gentlemen.” (Gender binary because traditional, obvs.)

        I like the lighthearted form someone mentioned here a while ago: “ladies and gentlemen, theydies and gentlethems.” Or just “hello, everyone.”

    4. The Real Persephone Mongoose*

      I hate this as well. Cis woman in tech industry but in a group that is 100% women. We all get along great but there are a couple who address emails as Hi Ladies and it just makes me….cringe. I use Hey All or Hi All. I can’t imagine what it must feel like to be gender non conforming and having to deal with this. I think Olivia has a good idea. Make the request that they use something that doesn’t focus on gender. I’m not sure guys is a good alternative. That’s why I prefer using All when addressing a large group of people and specific names when addressing individuals.

  44. Teva*

    Are there any therapists or people working in social work here? I’m switching areas and while I’ve been in my field for about 5 years, I’m trying a completely new area (going from working on coordinating programs to 1 on 1 work with clients) and I am rusty. I’m brushing up, but there’s one area of clients (substance abuse) that I’m quite new to. I feel like I should be honest with clients with how new I am to it, but I also don’t want it to seem like I’m completely inexperienced to the field. I’m trying to default to curiosity when I don’t always have the answer. Any recommendations on how/if I can communicate this?

  45. Agency Survivor*

    I am not sure if I’m having a work culture issue here or an employee issue here, and could use some help.

    I’ve been a director at my company for about a year and a half, and I come from previous environments (retail and agency) where the culture was always intense/sometimes unhealthy. I’m now at a privately owned company that’s profitable and a lot more relaxed. Which is good! it’s a healthy place for me, and I enjoy having more life balance.

    However, it seems like a few people on people on my team take 3-5x longer than previous teams I’ve managed to get things done, and they add a lot of extra steps. It’s especially an issue for the senior most member of the team, who is very highly regarded by my boss and the CEO. I don’t know if this is a “me” problem, a “him” problem, or not a problem!

    For example, for an internal document that I would have, personally, just written in Word, he creates decks. It takes him a week to do what I (again, personally) would do in a day or two, and he complains about working on weekends (!) which I don’t understand, because this is the first time in my life I’m pretty much pulling a steady 40 hour week. I’ve asked him why the decks are necessary, and he’s said it helps several other teammates–when I spoke with them privately, they said they take his decks and copy and paste the words into Word.

    I did not tell him not to do the decks but did tell him I would like to focus his time on another project–which he wouldn’t be able to handle and still do these decks. It was more of a “I’d like to see you develop this skill” than a mandate, though…and this is where I’m torn.

    I do wonder if he NEEDS to put his words into decks to properly think through the ideas. If that’s the case, and in general, everyone here moves at a slower pace than me, maybe I’m the one with the problem and I’d be overstepping or micromanaging to tell him to change his process.

    He isn’t the only one…I keep thinking to myself that this team of 8 processes less work than the team of 2 at the agency I left for this job (although that agency was toxic, exhausting, and I left it for a good reason.) So that’s why it’s an is-it-me question…

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      A thought.

      Is this a place where quality and precision are more important? It’s been my experience in retail jobs that “good enough to get through the day/week” is the standard for quality. If the display looks shopworn, just tear it down and rebuild it first thing Monday; as long as 95% of the SKUs are priced and signed appropriately, that’s good enough; etc.

      Is this document going to be set in stone and used for years?

      1. Agency Survivor*

        Yes, quality and precision matter in this industry, which is regulated.

        This document is supposed to explain where existing, executive and legally approved language should be placed in a customer-facing document. So it’s essentially an internal layout guide.

        I do think he does very quality work…I still think it takes a very long time, and think he could cut that time in half without the PPT.

        1. RabbitRabbit*

          Could you maybe try to address it as him mistakenly believing a PowerPoint is required during the process? Just tell him that you’d noticed he was developing a deck for each document but we don’t require that for this workflow, and to skip it to save time (and kind of emphasize the ‘save time’ part in additional remarks) going forward.

          1. Agency Survivor*

            So he’s been doing it this way for many years…I’m the new one. I guess I can just propose he try it a new way and see how it goes. especially because it is so time consuming!

            1. RabbitRabbit*

              Oh dear. Maybe spin it as “I don’t need the PowerPoint?” Or “I’d like to streamline the process, and I think skipping the PowerPoint would be really efficient?”

            2. Artemesia*

              “Bill, Fergus and Lucinda are copy/pasting the material from the decks into word — it would really save your time and theirs if you drafted in word. This would free up some of your time so we can get on top of (that other thing you want him to do)”

    2. SomebodyElse*

      It’s probably a combination of culture, employee, and your expectations. I came into a team much like you are describing and had to work really hard to change the culture and the mindset.

      It is possible! It is also a lot of hard work and took a combination of different tactics. I did everything from outright banning certain practices (that was the big stick), to giving them challenges “We need to find a way to do fit X into our work day, what are your ideas for doing this”, to asking why they did the things they did and asking them what they wanted to get rid of.

      Honestly it took me about 3 years to shift mindsets. I feel like I could probably write a book about my experience, so there’s way too much for a response here. But my advice is to be consistent about the changes you want to see, but don’t be afraid to try different approaches with the team as whole and with individuals. You’ll figure out how to get the results you want to see.

    3. LQ*

      Reading through some of the comments, I wonder if he isn’t using powerpoint because it’s the template he has to make sense of it.

      If lots of folks on the team are expected to put together internal documents…should there be a standard format to make it easier to read (powerpoint decks are horrible as read and follow unless it’s just screenshots, but even then…). If each person feels like they need to start from scratch everytime to come up with what needs to be relayed that can slow people down. I always take a previous document and work from there, if what I had was a powerpoint deck…then the next thing may be too just out of simplicity. Maybe review as a team and decide if there should be a/some templates.

      1. Agency Survivor*

        He is the only one who does this particular type of document, but the other team members do their own through Word, and it’s perfectly sufficient for the needs of the greater team. FWIW, he’s always offering the rest of the team “templates” and they seem to ignore them for the most part because what we do is provide content that later gets formatted by another team. So having everything justified a certain way or with a specific header seems to satisfy his needs, but I am not seeing any value in it, personally.

        1. PX*

          Ooh well in this case, can you not just say we want to have one (1) standard template for this document, which will be the Word one? If its going to get formatted later by another team, this makes a lot more sense than putting stuff in a PPT.

          I will say though, he definitely sounds like someone who will need some handholding and a lot of work to get used to change, so good luck in advance.

        2. fhqwhgads*

          I wonder if he thinks of the document as a “training material” and not-so-much as a document. Like if the document is a reference guide….personally I think it’s totally bizarre he’d feel the need to make that a deck. I don’t know how that practice could’ve even started. It makes no sense. But if he’s thinking of it as a training material, where you go through the deck and now you’re trained, that kind of makes sense. Or he just conflates the two. Either way I’m with you that what he’s doing is a waste of time.

        3. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Consider the other department that reformats your material… do THEY have a Word template/sample with assigned style names that your team could work in? That could be a significant efficiency booster for your ‘customers’, which is a valid reason to require a change to an existing procedure.

    4. Imprudence*

      I know it’s not essential to think about this, but does anyone else not understand the word decks in this context?

    5. JP*

      I think the question to ask yourself is whether the slow pace of the work coming in is a problem — for reasons other than it just subjectively seems slow. Like, is your team blowing deadlines, or are you unable to do some of the objectives you really want to do because the inefficiencies are eating too much time? If there is an actual reason why you need to speed up the workflow, then I think you just have a conversation with the team, either as individuals or as a group, where you explain why the pace needs to pick up and ask for suggestions about how that could be done.

      You can also make observations like the ones you mentioned in your post — that it might go faster if you didn’t build a powerpoint deck or whatever — but, don’t TELL people not to do that. Just suggest that that’s what you’re thinking and see how they respond. It may actually be the case that this particular guy WOULDN’T go faster in Word for whatever reason. Basically, instead of solving the problem and saying, “You need to do X to speed this up,” let people know why it needs to speed up and then collaborate in solving the problem together.

      1. ronda*

        I don’t see that using word would be significantly faster than using powerpoint….. but maybe I am missing something.

        I would think that power point might take a bit longer but not a lot.
        I would guess there is something else making him slow, and apparently the higher ups have not seen this as a problem…… so maybe it is not a problem.

  46. Competing offers, maybe?*

    Anyone have thoughts on how to navigate when interviewing with two different companies that seem to be moving at drastically different speeds?
    My husband has been talking with two different potential employers. He went through several rounds of interviews with Company #1 several weeks back and was informed by the internal recruiter that he is still in the running, next steps to follow probably in 1-2 weeks, but unknown whether “next steps” means more interviews, a potential offer, or something else.
    Meanwhile, he’s been talking with Company #2, which seems to be moving with much more urgency. I think he has a good shot at both positions, though of course nothing is guaranteed. He would rather take the position with Company #1 if offered, but there’s a chance Company #2 may need an answer before he hears from Company #1. He badly wants to leave his current job and would take either offer over staying where he is.
    Anyone have experience with this type of situation? Thanks in advance!

    1. Agency Survivor*

      When he gets an offer from Company 2, he can ask Company 1 for a decision or timeline.

      1. Artemesia*

        And he might even before that, say that he is interviewing with another company and they are moving rapidly and he wonders if Company 1 will be able to move quickly if necessary.

  47. New Boss*

    I got a new boss last month and he seems to want a lot of affirmation – he asks stuff like “are you proud of me?” mentions getting smarter, figuring stuff out eventually, etc. I’m not totally sure how to respond – I’m not his supervisor so I don’t know how his performance is over all, but for the stuff I need him for he’s doing okay/getting up to speed. The questions like “are you proud of me?” are for completing pretty routine tasks that my job depends on him completing. How do I respond?

    1. Agency Survivor*

      Could he be joking? Like, “I sharpened all the pencils, aren’t you proud of me?” Otherwise, so strange!

      1. pieces_of_flair*

        Yeah. I would assume he’s joking and “play along.” I’d probably laugh a little and say something like “absolutely!” And I’d just cheerfully tell him he’s doing great when he asks (assuming you have no complaints).

    2. Engineer Woman*

      I can’t imagine any scenario except the joke as Agency Survivor mentioned where a boss would ask “are you proud of me?” Is there any change your boss IS joking? Do you have any coworkers to confer with about how to address? I’m not of much help but mainly commented to reinforce how bizarre this is.

    4. PollyQ*

      That’d be weird coming from someone who reports to you — coming from someone whom you report to it’s absolutely bizarre. It’s so strange that I don’t even know how to advise you. Maybe just say “Sure am, boss” and change the subject quickly?

    5. Malarkey01*

      Id just assume it was a little awkwardness and off way of phrasing that he knows he’s still learning but he’s getting up to speed as fast as possible. It’s always a little weird when you come in to manage a new group and know almost nothing, especially if the training comes from your staff members.

      If it were me I’d just smile and say yep you’re picking it up and then pivot to whatever else you were doing.

    6. JP*

      It’s supposed to be a self-deprecating joke. If you’re a woman, it’s also based on a little bit of a sexist stereotype where men are lovable oafs and women are their responsible caretakers.

      If it were me, I would probably just say, “I am!” with mock excitement.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I used to work for someone who did something a little bit like this …the old-timer’s rote response was “Yup, you’re hired.”

  48. Nora*

    Technically this is about volunteering, not work, but I hope it’s still ok to post here:

    I’m part of a leadership team for a large group (~200) of volunteers. (Everyone on the leadership team is also a volunteer; we’ve just been selected to coordinate social events for volunteers and liaise with the staff at the organization we all volunteer for.)

    In the past this leadership team only did fun stuff because the organization had plenty of money to pay for necessities and kept the volunteers happy. However, COVID-related cutbacks and a subsequent reorganization have completely demolished the volunteer coordinator department at the organization. They’ve gone from 7 dedicated coordinators to 1.5, and the reorganization now prevents them from paying directly for things like food at volunteer training sessions, the t-shirts and name tags that the volunteers are required to wear, and twice-a-year appreciation parties.

    Does anyone have any thoughts or advice on making this leadership team more organized and robust, so that we can really take care of the volunteers and advocate for them and take care of things that the coordinators don’t have time for anymore, even though all of our experience so far has been just planning happy hours and nature walks?

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      This is a tough one. Unless you’re talking about personally footing the bill for parties and nametags, I’m not sure there’s much you can do as a volunteer to advocate for the other volunteers; the company has decided what resources they’re able to allocate to the volunteer program and they have to live with the consequences of that. I would probably have a conversation with the main volunteer coordinator to say, “look, these are the problems I see with the new arrangement and I predict we are going to lose [many, most, all] volunteers over this”, but ultimately you’re not staff so the limit of the power you have to change the situation might be limited to your personal decision to volunteer or not. Personally, I see volunteering as a two way street and if I’m not getting the fulfillment/enjoyment out of the experience, I’ll find something that better suits my needs.

      1. Nora*

        The volunteers are, probably, going to end up paying for at least some of the food/parties, through donations or possibly dues in exchange for invitations to the social events.

        The organization would love to continue to pay for things for the volunteers, but due to the reorganization (I’m trying to be vague but it does involve a government) they are legally prohibited from spending money on volunteers. They can probably get a grant for the shirts but everything else will either go away, or be paid for by the volunteers themselves or out of the pockets of the remaining staff.

        The problem I anticipate running into is that a significant portion of the volunteers, maybe 25% or more, have much greater loyalty to the organization than they do to the other volunteers. To the point where most conversations I try to start in leadership meetings about how we need to be more organized and serious get derailed with suggestions for how the leadership team can encourage volunteers to fundraise for the organization we all volunteer for.

        Sorry if I’m not explaining it well, it’s all just very complicated and frustrating. I feel like I can see a way that we can make this work but I’m doing it all alone.

    2. Dancing Otter*

      Personally, I would start by telling them they will absolutely lose volunteers over requiring them to wear specific t-shirts (organization name?) while not providing same. If the organization can no longer afford t-shirts, don’t require the t-shirts. If they can’t afford fancy name tags, they can buy cheap peel-off ones by the roll. If they can’t afford to feed the volunteers, don’t schedule training over mealtimes.
      There’s a saying about binding the mouths of the oxen who tread the grain that seems apropos here. How much does the organization rely on the work done by the volunteers? Do they actively want to cut back on volunteers? With only 30% the prior organizers, maybe they actually only need 30% the former number of volunteers.

      1. Nora*

        I think I have a good grasp on how to work with the organization/coordinators, but I’m struggling with convincing the other people in the volunteer leadership team that it’s something we need to do. Both that being more organized so we can advocate is necessary to keep up the morale of the volunteers and that doing so will be worth it, because it will work.

        As I mentioned in my reply above, the organization is legally prohibited from directly spending money on volunteers. The shirts and food are a tiny drop in their operating bucket and they know it and they would love to shower volunteers with stuff but their hands are tied.

  49. Bucky Barnes*

    How is everyone who’s physically at work handling the mask mandates being dropped?

    My company dropped the requirement for vaccinated employees only but I know some of the unvaxxed aren’t wearing them. I continue to wear mine mostly (I’m vaxxed) and always when I’m away from my cube.

    1. Agency Survivor*

      My company didn’t change–we still need to wear masks and social distance.

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Personally, I’m mostly ok. I know others aren’t, and that’s also ok! I’m vaccinated, I have PTO/sick time that I can take if necessary. My daily exposure is limited to the same group of people. I’m not shaking hands, and I’m not getting physically very close to people. My home bubble is all vaccinated. And case numbers aren’t really terrible.

      I do wear my mask at grocery stores, etc still. And I do have a mask with me, so if I feel it necessary or someone asks I can put it on. There’s a few people I know who aren’t comfortable, so if I see them I’ll put the mask on. As the situation changes, I will evaluate and make adjustments.

    3. ThatGirl*

      So far, our rules are still the same: wear your mask when you’re walking around or interacting with others. Our desks are spaced fairly well and have some extra barriers up, though it occurred to me this week that I wouldn’t feel comfortable being maskless at my desk if I weren’t vaccinated, because 5-6 ft is not a magic distance. But, I’m fully vaccinated and still wearing a mask when I’m near people.

    4. Mental Lentil*

      I’m the only one left at my company still wearing a mask. Most people stopped wearing them months ago.

      My mental health is not great.

      2. Snailing*

        Same :( We worked from home for a few months at corporate’s direction, but once we were allowed to come back sparingly, my local field office boss wants bodies in the office and she doesn’t believe covid is that bad, so no masking, no distancing, nothing. She didn’t even want to pay for cleaners to come when a coworker was covid positive because she didn’t think it was worth it. I’m very luckily vaccinated now so I feel safer, but man it still wears me down.

    5. Cormorannt*

      My company also dropped the requirement for vaccinated employees. I don’t know everyone’s status, but I suspect there are some unvaccinated folks not masking. Honestly, I don’t worry about much and I don’t wear a mask at work anymore except around one coworker who cannot receive the vaccine for medical reasons. Overall we have a fairly high rate of vaccination. It helped that we had an on-site vaccination clinic for employees. I am confident in the effectiveness of the vaccine and I was not high-risk to begin with. My partner is also fully vaccinated, so there is nobody at home I need to worry about. Even though I never minded wearing a mask, it’s been freaking great. There are still a few people wearing masks, either due to caution or because they aren’t vaccinated and are following the CDC guidelines.

      1. Artemesia*

        I don’t get the ‘for vaccinated employees’ unless they are requiring evidence of that. The same azzhats who are anti-vax, are also anti being considerate of any other human being, so of course they are not wearing masks.

        1. Cormorannt*

          Sure, but [shrug]. The vaccines are highly effective for most people. I had a robust response to the second shot, so I’m confident my immune system is primed and ready to kill any Covid it sees. Everyone at my company who wants a shot has had the chance to get one. In theory it bothers me that there are buttmunches getting away without vaccines or masks while the rest of us are trying to do the right thing. I think that we would all be better off if they did follow the guidelines. But honestly, I really don’t care. My team is 100% vaccinated and I don’t feel like there’s a lot more I can do, so I don’t expend mental energy on it.

          1. FedUp*

            But what about the co-worker you mention not being able to be vaccinated for medical reasons? Sure she can wear a mask…but as we know, the mask is as much (if not more) to protect others as is it to protect the wearer. Those unvaccinated “buttmunches” (great descriptor BTW!) are putting her at risk when they don’t mask up too.

            1. Cormorannt*

              Yes, they are putting him at risk. Fully agree. But, there is zero chance that my company will go back to requiring masks for everyone or forcing the unmasked to prove their vax status no matter what I do. The past year has been exhausting and I used a lot of political capital advocating for safer practices. I don’t have the energy left to try to get people to care when they don’t. I’m not going to lie, being maskless and vaccinated feels freaking great and I’m loving it.

        2. fhqwhgads*

          I mean, you’re not wrong, but the actual CDC guidance if “you’re fully vaccinated you don’t need to mask” so if companies are following the guidance, they’re correct to say they’re dropping it “for vaccinated employees”. Asshats are gonna asshat and they’ve been asshatting the whole time.

    6. Riffy McRiffed*

      No change at my work, which is super strict even for fully vaccinated people. I’m curious if they’ll loosen up as things on the outside get back to normal, but so far it’s not happening. I’m totally okay with that. I don’t trust any of the anti-vax/anti-mask crowd will be honest, and it only takes one infected person to kick off a super spreader event.

      1. Riffy McRiffed*

        I’ll add I would be fine if the mask requirement was dropped at work since you either have to be fully vaxxed or pass a rapid COVID test to even get inside the building. Trust but verify as they say!

    7. often trapped under a cat*

      My company hasn’t changed their mandate yet, so everyone is still masked in the office unless actively eating or drinking.

      I think most of us are vaccinated, given the conversations I’ve heard/participated in, but everyone still seems comfortable masking. We are in NYC so may have a different relationship to masking than people elsewhere.

      I would be fine with the mandate being lifted in the office, and would be happy to stop masking at my desk. I’m still masking on public transportation and every store I’ve been into since the statewide mandate was changed still requires masking. So I walk around outside without my mask around 3/4 of the time, and I don’t mask in my own apartment, but I mask everywhere else, including the hallways and elevators of my apartment building, where masking is still required.

    9. JRR*

      As a fully vaccinated person, I consider the risk of my getting sick from the virus or transmitting it to others to be negligible (not zero, but very low). With that in mind, I don’t care if my coworkers want to go unmasked and unvaccinated.

    10. CTT*

      We dropped the requirement for vaccinated employees (you had to bring your card in and get approved, not that people couldn’t fake it, but still. It’s something) and while I have mixed feelings about it, I have LOVED vexing able to have my office door open again without having my mask on. I no longer have to worry about my office smelling all day if I eat something fragrant for lunch!

    11. Iced Mocha Latte*

      We’re not back in the office yet, but my company just announced that vaccinated employees no longer need masks or social distancing, which is great. Unvaccinated people must wears masks and distance. Managers will be provided a list of their team members who are vaccinated (half my team isn’t…). Supposedly they are going to enforce masks and distancing, but I feel we’re now in a position where we’re expected to “snitch” on people since only managers of their own teams will have the information. I won’t know if a maskless employee from another team is truly vaccinated or not.

  50. Jaid*

    Sigh, we’re still dealing with mice at work. The drawers at my original cubicle were cleaned, but I discovered that the ones where I’m currently sitting were also infested. Cue mild panic and the bringing in of gloves and garbage bags again. I was told the lady who sat here retired so I felt fine in tossing all her stuff out. Frankly, I would have done it anyway, because no one should be sitting around mouse poop.

    I’m still waiting for maintenance to vacuum the area, though my manager brought in one himself, so it’s not as bad. However, it’s being elevated, because the response to my e-mail said something about 5 business days…

    They did send out a memo, telling staff to either plan on coming in for the day so they can clear their stuff out or let management know that it’s fine to dump everything. They should have done it waaaaaayyy before this.

    1. JillianNicola*

      Oh, no. I feel for you, I live in an old house with cracks in every corner and we have to deal with mice every few years. We use the Victor brand electronic traps, which work really well – zaps them dead quick and painless, easy to bait and to clean. I miss our cat, who was an excellent mouser in his prime!

    2. No Tribble At All*

      *screams* the first time I found a mouse near my desk I’d set the building on fire and not come back. I haaaate mice. That’s definitely an emergency maintenance request!!

      2. Anonymous Hippo*

        Lol, I’m guessing you wouldn’t have cared for the time our back warehouse flooded and we found snakes under out desks in the accounting department?

        1. Dancing Otter*

          Facilities didn’t consider snakes urgent until one turned up in the university president’s office. At least they ate the mice. Of course, if we hadn’t had mice, we might not have had the snakes….

    3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      OMG. Yes they should have cleaned out food a year ago. Cleaning isn’t the only thing they need to do at this point. Are they bringing in an exterminator? Employees shouldn’t even be the ones cleaning.

      1. Jaid*

        Apparently the employees have to come in to reclaim their personal property. I’m like…yeah. No.

        I asked my DM about if they’re gonna provide gloves and bags to the people coming in and it really doesn’t sound like it. I also asked about sending us people who come in, home for the day. That’s still TBD.

      2. Indeed!*

        Of course not.

        That is clearly a task to be contracted out.

        And then we will blame the lesser beings for whatever goes missing.

    4. Artemesia*

      for years I had to have a ring of mouse traps around my Prius in the garage because those things are mouse houses and when it was new I had to pay $350 to have the AC piping cleaned once mice got into the AC system and made a nest in the filter. The smell was unbelievable and they wanted $1500 to replace the tubing in a new car — I made them clean it and re-install it and it was fine. But never again. I would routinely trap half a dozen mice at change of seasons and then occasionally. If you have a mouse problem in addition to cleaning and throwing away — set a few mouse traps where you won’t stick a finger or toe in.

      1. Jaid*

        I’m not setting mouse traps, we do have exterminators. But one time, we put in a ticket because a mouse was caught on a glue trap and was squealing for…well it eventually died and they still didn’t remove it. Someone put a trash can over it. I think it took a week to deal with it?

        So, yeah. Federal government, that’s how we roll…

    5. Sparkles McFadden*

      Sadly, my first thought was “Better mice than rats.” It’s sad how low my bar is these days.

      1. CatMintCat*

        We are in the middle of a mouse plague (western New South Wales, Australia). We just had to replace our oven because the wiring had been chewed – and this is a house with three indoor cats! Nothing stops them.

  51. I'm A Little Teapot*

    Does anyone do purchasing at US local governments? Would love to hear some best practices/how the heck you handle the following. Or sources I can use for research!

    1. Regular invoices (weekly/monthly/etc) that you may or may not know the amount, or even an estimate of the amount, before the invoice arrives. Do you create requisitions with best guess estimate?
    2. Emergency items. Just create the requisition as soon as you know?

    I’m currently acting as contracted purchasing department. None of the higher level negotiation with vendors, etc, and there is no centralized purchasing.

    1. LQ*

      I’m at a state level. They did some centralization but there are still lots of pockets.

      Best guess estimates are good. My general plan is best guess +10%
      Can you create requestion …groupings of a sort? Like we’ll spend 100,000 from the paper vendor over the next year, we don’t know when and exactly what for, but a blanket requestion can be really helpful. Especially if you have dedicated vendors for types of items, office supplies, translation services, yard work. Whatever it is that you buy. Another good thing is if you can go through the past and see if there are things that come up every 3 or 5 years. Those are painful ones!

      For resources you may actually be able to look to your state, ours has some pooling of resources for local governments at the level folks want to get involved.

      1. I'm A Little Teapot*

        Thanks. This city at least has not done blanket reqs/POs in the past. I can’t make changes to the process, but I can recommend changes, and I think I will recommend they use blanket POs for some things in future. They’re (in theory) going to hire a permanent employee and I’m just keeping things running as best I can.

        I will definitely dive into the state’s website.

  52. NeonDreams*

    Is it okay to still want to leave even though your new bosses are asking you to invest in the position and trust them? The truth is, I don’t. I’ve spent at least two years dealing with severe burn out at this position. They’re like, you need to do better at this position in order to get a new position. I agree to a point. They’re promising everything’s going to get better and I should give them a blank slate. I want to because that’s the person I am. But I’m tired of my mental health being in shambles. I just want out NOW. but i can’t afford to.

    I just feel really beaten up today.

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Yes, you can leave the job. Even if your bosses don’t want you to. You need to take care of yourself. If you’re not job searching, start.

      1. NeonDreams*

        I am searching and had a good interview with another department in my same company on Monday. I don’t have much savings and have a lot of medical conditions, so I’m not in a position to quit on the fly. I’m hoping that this last interview will pain out, but I’m not holding my breath.

    2. Snailing*

      You must prioritize yourself over them & their comfort. Yes, they have a point that in general you need to be able to get through some toughness for promotion, but not at the expense of your mental sanity! And 2 years of toughing it out seems like a while to keep hearing “it’ll get better.” I’ve been there – either it’s crappy managers just telling you that with no intention of it actually getting better, or it’s newer/idealistic managers who really believe it will get better but the system of the organization will work against it anyway, and it’ll be you and your mental health that pay the price.

      1. irene adler*

        Exactly!
        You are the only one with your best interests at heart.
        Will this company give you 2 years while you “get better” at your work tasks? Thinking no. They will have you out of there long before that.
        When they say “it’ll get better”, ask for specifics. Or a time line. Otherwise, it’s just a delay tactic to keep you there. And the longer they can keep you there without changing a thing, the easier it is on them. But not on you.

    3. Ama*

      Yes, frame it for yourself as “well, hopefully that means things will be easier for the time I have left here” and keep searching. I’ve had far too many experiences with bosses who mean well about hiring more support staff/improving a toxic environment/getting me a promotion but then the timeline keeps getting delayed for more pressing priorities/budget cuts/sheer denial on the senior leadership’s part that there is even a problem. I once waited two years for a promised expansion of staff at a job where I was completely overloaded — I gave up, started job hunting and ended up giving notice the day my boss was finally going to tell me that they had gotten approval to post the new positions. I still left; I don’t regret it.

      If things change before you find a new job and you’re happy with those changes you can always call off the job search, but if you wait to start job hunting and it turns out things are still about the same 6 months-1 year from now you might have missed out on a better opportunity to move on.

      1. NeonDreams*

        I like that frame work you said. I don’t want to burn the bridge here. I’ve been at this company almost 6 years, almost 7 if you count my contract position doing only one aspect of the calls I take now. I’ve worked my ass off to be the best I can be. But there’s several restrictions that make me feel like I’m being treated as I’m less than human. So even if we get more representatives to manage our call volume, I’m still expected to adhere to an exact schedule, take the exact amount of lunches and breaks or it gets counted against me. I’m still doing the same thing I hate doing while having those restrictions on place. I’m sorry, that doesn’t sound like better to me.

        My manager yesterday was like, you can get a medical exception so your breaks aren’t scheduled at an exact time. You can go whenever you want as long as you stay within 30 minutes. I want to yell at them “I DON’T WANT TO HAVE TO DO THAT”? I don’t want to have to have my doctor vouch me that yes I am human and I should be allowed to get up from my desk as I damn well please.

        Sorry, my emotion is flooding this week. Not in a good way, unfortunately.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Yes, of course.

      People who have lost your trust aren’t entitled to demand it just because they promise things will get better. Do the best you can with what you have and keep looking.

      There’s being a person who is committed and looks at long-term goals, and then there’s being used by people who dangle a carrot to keep the machine turning.

      You aren’t obligated to suck it up just because they want you to.

        1. Anonymous Hippo*

          I think they are talking about a intercompany transfer, it’s usually next to impossible to hide those.

          1. NeonDreams*

            Yes, that’s what I’m talking about. One of the questions on the internal application talks about notifying your manager about the interview. I forget the exact wording.

            My ideal scenario would be to transfer in the company because it has a lot of different departments and a corporate headquarters in a major city a couple hours from me. (I want to move out of my area long term). And if you’re on a Performance Improvement Plan, the company doesn’t let you transfer internally. Luckily I’m not that far down and don’t plan to get that far. So Hippo is correct, those are pretty open at my work.

    5. JustaTech*

      Trust is earned, both their trust of you and your trust of them. If you don’t trust them then you don’t trust them (and there are probably a million tiny reasons why; listen to yourself!).

      If they haven’t been specific about what you need to change for them to give you a new position then they’re stringing you along. If they haven’t told you specifically how things will get better, they’re stringing you along.

      You don’t owe them your work forever. Do your job as best you can now, but you don’t owe them anything more than that an 2 week’s notice. Go look! Sometimes even just looking makes you feel a little better.

      Good luck!

  53. Hare under the moon with a silver spoon*

    Im a low way today with work. Work in coveted GLAM role (museum) with a few others who started at same time. I started remotely and still work remotely and seems like im always on the back foot in this world – being efficient and collaborative just seems to have got me all of the grunt work while being unavailable/busy by others seems to get them higher level work – which means by our fixed terms end their CVs will be so much better than mine all need for doing a lot less work (I always seem to do more than 35 hours a week).
    I’m not a competitive person and I was told one of the others was intimated by me but even when I reached out to collaborate I got burned (her line manager rubbished my work in a meeting, I was so upset I turned my camera off because I was crying, then privately admitted much of my research had been included).

    Ive tried politely mentioning, asking for better work, I have no idea what my own line manager does or doesnt say, whether Im being advocated for or not. I said to my manager many times but also this pressure not to be too upset or angry as Ill come across badly. Im so unhappy – the work itself is great but ugly nest of dimwits and vipers makes me cry weekly. People say its jealousy but when I feel Im being held back/less opportunities than others how can it be so. I was told by a grandboss they had an interesting project for me that lasts… 1 week. 7 months of grunt work and I get that and I still have to be grateful as cant rock the boat. Meanwhile all I hear about is endless work fun trips other starters are doing amd shadowing because their schedules are so empty. Not prepared for this world and dont know how to handle this at all. I like the good parts of my job and cant afford to burn any bridges. Any advice?

    1. Brent*

      Can I commiserate? That sucks. I’ve seen similar case happen when some peers got to travel for projects so often because their workload was low. Meanwhile, some of us were stuck with work on policies that entailed mostly coordinating meetings with other stakeholders and consolidating their inputs. Study tours on or projects that we were managing were attended by the low-workload group because we couldn’t be spared. It was just one of the many things I hated about that company.

      Hope you can communicate your concern to your superior better. Be specific about what you’re hoping to work on. She may not realize that all the work assigned to you aren’t what you want.
      If you’re not sure she’s advocating for you, go up the next level.
      Expressing your desire for other projects shouldn’t burn any bridge if you’ve proven yourseld capable of that project and your manager is a reasonable person.

  54. Rain rain go away*

    Question about reference letters.
    I had a direct report ask me for a reference letter for an MBA program to which she’s applying.
    She’s worked for me for about 4 months and is at the beginning of her career (she graduated in December).
    In my many years managing people, this is the first I’ve been asked to write.
    What should I include? There is not much direction provided by the university, it basically says upload letter of recommendation.

    1. Snailing*

      Caveat: I’ve never written one before. But I think it’s really important to starting with asking your direct report what she’s trying to highlight in her application and if there are any specific accomplishments on her mind that you may not think of off of the top of your head. You don’t 100% have to include those if they don’t fit with what you know, but it will be easier to have a starting place of what she’s hoping to achieve by asking you!

      1. Ama*

        In academia it is not uncommon for professors to ask people who request reference letters from them to send them some of the achievements they want highlighted (some professors have the person write the entire letter that they then edit and sign which is a practice I don’t love).

    2. Nesprin*

      Ref letters are a 1-2 page thing on letterhead with all the formal business letter stylings:
      Paragraph 1 describes how you know applicant and states that you’re offering your strongest support for thing X they’re applying 2.
      Paragraphs 2-5 (or 2-8 if you’ve known the applicant for years and can rave about them) describe the work that they did, why it was important/notable, skills and attributes that will make them a standout success in grad school etc.
      Last paragraph is “in summary, applicant is an outstanding candidate for thing X, and I have no doubts they will thrive due to their attributes A, B and C. If you have further questions, I am happy to rave about applicant and my contact is #.”

      Strong letters focus on attributes+ accomplishments (applicant is nice and helpful is a terrible attribute), are specific (applicant did specific things X and Y on project A that has lead to outcomes B&C vs. applicant is nice and helped with project A), are 1-2 pages long, and are formatted in a formal manner.

    3. Artemesia*

      Brief description of your program as it is relevant to the career she is seeking. (you can save this and use it for every letter)

      Specific comments about her work and skills and accomplishments in the program. I always ask students to provide a resume (rough is fine, doesn’t have to be polished draft) and to tell me about things they did in my class or in our program or in your case when working for you or even in other work they did– so you have specific anecdotes to flesh out the ref.

      So it is X program prepares people to be able to do XYZ; the job she did for me focused on ABC skills and accomplishments or tasks.

      Lucinda was (one of the best, excellent, did a fine job — which ever it was) Give example of things she did well or accomplished choosing if possible something she would be able to do on the new job. Maybe she was a real initiative taker, or very diligent, or careful to check her work and produced error free copy, or was skilled at working with difficult clients, or made effective presentations of the work in meetings or conferences. Specific example.

      Close with something about her excellence and your willingness to hire her again if you had the chance.

    4. Unladen European Swallow*

      I agree with the advice given by others, but wanted to really highlight that a list of adjectives to describe the candidate with little to few specific work examples to back them up is not a helpful recommendation.

      If you’re able to comment on skills that are transferable to graduate study (writing skills, critical thinking skills, analysis skills), this can also be helpful.

      It might also be helpful to have a conversation with your report on why they picked/asked you to write a letter and who else they’ve asked . If your report was being thoughtful, then they would have chosen three (or however many) people to focus on three different areas/skills. It can potentially give you some context on what to focus in your letter.

  55. Kwebbel*

    Should I tell my former grandboss that he’s got a file stored on my old team’s shared drive that contains his salary information?

    I was cleaning up my sharepoint folders yesterday and discovered a file on my old team’s shared drive that had a title like “Mortgage Application”. Since I have a file with this name on my personal (not my work) sharepoint drive that I share with my husband, I was worried that I had accidentally placed this file on my work shared drive. When I opened it, I quickly discovered that it was actually my grandboss’s file….and one of the inputs in the file was his own salary!

    I should tell him, right? The only arguments I can think of against telling him are that he’ll think I shouldn’t have access to the shared drive anymore (which isn’t really an argument), or that he’ll be embarrassed to know that I might have seen his salary info (also not really a good reason not to tell him). Right? I ethically have to, don’t I?

    1. Snailing*

      I think you should tell him, and just make yourself be as not-awkward as possible. Be super matter of fact! “I clicked on this because I thought I’d accidentally uploaded my own application, and when I saw your name, I wanted to let you know it was accessible to everyone! Now about that TPS report…”

    2. SomebodyElse*

      Email him a copy and delete the one on the shared drive with a msg “Hi Bob, I was looking for something on the shared drive and tripped across this file. I opened it and saw your name so I’m sending you a copy and deleting the one on the shared drive”

      Job done.

      1. Pocket Mouse*

        I like this, unless there are issues with the file then being stored in the email system. I don’t think you have to call out that the file includes his salary, just call it a personal file that must have been saved to the shared drive by mistake.

  56. cactus lady*

    This might sound silly, but I’m having a lot of anxiety at the thought of working without my dog during the day. They just announced our timeline to return to the office, and that we won’t have the option to do a hybrid work schedule once we return (back 5 days a week full days as soon as we are back). Our office has a strict no dog policy.

    I moved across the country for this job right before the pandemic hit, took a few weeks off between jobs, and got a puppy during that time. He wasn’t supposed to be a COVID puppy, but I only worked in the office a few days before WFH started, and have been working from home since. Due to our area being super locked down for most of COVID, I haven’t been able to meet people or make friends, so basically he’s been my little buddy/coworker all day every day. While he’s fine with dog daycare, I get super anxious without him. Is anyone else having separation anxiety from their dog? For those who have already returned to the office, how are you managing it?

    1. pancakes*

      Can you find a dog daycare that has a streaming live cam? You could tune in every now and then to see how he’s doing.

    2. StressedButOkay*

      Are you able to start trying to ease yourself into not being there? Take your laptop somewhere (and I know it’s hard, thanks to COVID), even if it’s outside, for 15 minutes. Then 30, then an hour, etc. That way you’re both getting used to it at the same time.

      And then, when you return to work, a lot of dog daycare’s will send updates! You can even ask if they’ll send you some more frequently. My friend gets pictures throughout the day and videos of her dogs being ridiculous at doggy daycare.

  57. I come cheap*

    I need some perspective.

    I work for the government. I’m salaried. I’m exempt. I do not get OT. Nearly all the staff who work for me are hourly and unionized. They all get OT. They’ve all gotten a LOT of OT in the last year. As much or as little as they want. I (and the 2 folks who are also salaried) are …just picking up the rest. I’ve worked 70-80 hour weeks for the last 16 months without any time off at all. I’ve not done anything stupid like calculate my hourly rate for the last year. All of my staff except the 1 manager and 1 very junior person who didn’t want much OT will make more than me this year (to be fair a few of them would make more than me without OT too). All of my staff (except 1 manager I’m hassling pretty hard to actually take some time) have taken a couple of weeks worth of time off over the last year. (Less than normal!) I’m going to lose nearly 3 months of vacation this july. None of my staff will lose any time.

    This is all fine.

    Except my staff (save like 2) do not know this. They think that I’ve ALSO been getting OT, that I’m also not going to lose vacation. They know I haven’t taken much time off but they don’t see me enough to know that it’s been none. They don’t know how many hours I’m working. So they are making comments about how great it is to be getting all this extra money and the like. I’ve tried just offhandly making a comment that managers don’t get that. I’m really, really exhausted and extremely angry at how I’ve been treated through all this and I’m worried that it’s going to come across to my staff. It’s not going to get any better unless you all change it because it’s actually a legal mandate so the law says to treat me like dirt. Yay. But I don’t know how to take these comment from my staff other than just swallow it and move on but a few times they’ve started to expand in a way that’s really hard to get out of with just a topic shift and the last thing I want is for them to get an earful of how bitter I am about how I’m being treated. How do I eat this better or shift away from it better?

    1. Rick T*

      Stop working like two people and taking time off starting Monday. If you have that much vacation accrued take two days off a week from now until your backlog is cleared.

      Quit killing yourself, it is just a job.

      1. Riffy McRiffed*

        Exactly this. Even if your co-workers never mentioned OT again, you’d still be bitter and burning out. You need a break. Time for a talk with your manager about how to make that happen so you don’t lose your PTO or your sanity.

        1. I come cheap*

          Everyone on this site always screams about how managers have a responsibility to take the burden on for their staff which is what I’m trying to do. But no one talks about how managers need to handle having that burden dumped on them. Someone has to manage that work, I’m asking about that and the answer can’t just be shuffle it to someone else forever, if the work matters, it needs to get done. I’m at the layer where it does need to be on me to handle it, I can’t shuffle it up a layer.

          1. sagc*

            You’re clearly holding yourself to a different standard than either your bosses or your employees; without trying to figure out how you got so out of sync with a healthy approach, I’m not sure what you can do.

            In your other comment in this thread, you’re saying that people on this site think you should kill yourself. If that’s how you’re experiencing the world right now, I’d definitely think about getting some mental health care to have someone who’s a) on your side and b) hopefully operating from a neutral perspective.

            You’ve put yourself in a bind, and I expect that you’re not going to see any of the solutions presented here as options for you – You need to figure out a way to see that changing your work habits is morally acceptable.

          2. Anono-me*

            Yes, managers do have a responsibility to remove unreasonable burdens from employees, but YOU ARE AN EMPLOYEE TOO.

            You don’t properly remove an unreasonable burden from one overworked person by transferring it to another overworked person; you do it be bringing in more people, or by reevaluating the process to reduce the labor involved, or by ditching the least critical parts.

      2. I come cheap*

        The work I do helps people, it really makes a difference, and people across the US have been screaming, including on this blog, about how I’m not doing enough and how I’m hurting people by not killing myself. So no, it’s not “just a job.” Someone would go hungry, someone would be homeless, someone will die. And I’m not “just being dramatic” all things that have happened in the last month despite all that I’m doing, so I’m still not doing enough. It’s not enough. I mean maybe the answer is just I eat it harder and stfu more.

        1. Snailing*

          It’s not just a job, but you are just a person. And you cannot effectively keep helping people if you let yourself drown. You ARE doing enough because you are doing what you CAN do.

          If you can’t take “real” time off, maybe just take one week where you don’t let yourself work over 40 hours. Go home in the evening and turn it off. Let yourself rest and heal even if just a little, and then resolve to put in extra effort in the time you are there. If you continue running yourself to the ground with no reward, it will eventually seep into your interactions with coworkers AND clients/customers/whoever you are doing this work for. If only for them, take some time for yourself.

        2. Rick T*

          You are not Atlas, you cannot hold the entire world on your shoulders.

          When you die the world won’t die too. Take care of yourself before it is too late.

        3. Double A*

          No, the answer is you take a break. Seriously. You are not well right now, and I say this with compassion and recognition. I was in a job like this and I pushed myself to the point of a mental breakdown. I just couldn’t go in the following Monday, my doctor and therapist put me on Medical leave and I never returned to the job.

          As we have learned over the past year, there are a lot of people with unreasonable expectations. As you say, people have died, gone homeless, gotten ill even when you’re there. The system is insufficient. You are doing important and helpful work in an insufficient system. The system will not improve by you sacrificing yourself more. The system will be better if, in the long run, you can stay in it and do your good work at a sustainable level. That should be your goal, and a break is absolutely essential to achieving that goal.

        4. CatCat*

          Do you have access to an EAP? An EAP should be able to help you get in touch with a therapist to work through some of this. You seem to be putting a lot of weight on criticism from strangers, but it really is NOT ALL ON YOU. A counselor should help you work through this and find a more realistic “normal” than the one you are operating in.

        5. pancakes*

          I’m wondering if there’s an industry-specific / field-specific support group or more informal message board or something where you can talk through some of this with people who are under the same pressures. Even the most skilled surgeon is likely to lose a patient on the table at some point, even the most skilled criminal defense attorney is going to have evidence withheld or a client otherwise treated unfairly, etc. etc. You can’t expect yourself to be superhuman, and you can’t work yourself into a superhuman state of being.

    2. JP*

      So, here’s a lesson I didn’t learn until late in life: just because it’s physically possible for you to do something doesn’t mean you have to do it. Draw a reasonable boundary about how much work you and your team can manage and then tell the people above you that you need more staff if there’s more work than that.

      I realize that you feel personally responsible, because it’s the public that gets hurt if the work doesn’t get done, but it’s actually the responsibility of the higher-ups who made the budgeting and resource allocation decisions — they need to plan responsibly and have the right number of people to do the work. They currently don’t.

      I also realize that it’s an emergency, but the US government found money to bail out fake farms and social media influencers — it can find money to pay for public services.

      1. pancakes*

        The availability of funding has never been the issue. Many Americans prefer to go without public services rather than share them with people they see as unworthy.

    3. Emma2*

      Is there any possibility you can make a case to your manager (or above) to let you roll over some of that vacation? My org had a strict “use it or lose it” policy this year, except it turned out some people successfully argued that work prevented them using their vacation days and they were allowed to roll over extra days.
      Also, while I understand your stress, more junior employees should not really need to worry about the compensation of their manager or other senior employees- a manager should not boast to staff about benefits that they receive that are not available to staff, but staff should not be expected to tip toe around their manager and should be free to express happiness at benefits they are receiving. I’m sorry, but I don’t think you should ask/expect your staff to be sensitive to your feelings on this.

      1. I come cheap*

        I’m fine with them expressing happiness. It’s them expecting me to have my own happiness about it that’s the issue. Them and their joy and their feelings about themselves I’m 100% on board with, I’ve celebrated folks who have bought new homes, paid off cars, decided they were able to afford very shiny things. I’m entirely on board with celebrating and having them be happy.

        It’s when they are expecting me to say what I spent my OT money on that it is really getting under my skin. I’m certainly not boasting about benefits I don’t have, I’m saying I have fewer benefits than them right now, which again I’m NOT complaining about. I’m just frustrated that I’m expected by them to also have those. They are trying to be kind, but my anger and bitterness just seeps out when I talk about it because that’s how I’m feeling about how I’m being treated, which they have nothing to do with. I need them to leave me and what’s going on with my pay and benefits the hell alone as a conversation topic because it’s not good. I’ll talk to them all they need about their own.

        I do think the overall message I’m getting is eat it harder and just shove it away. Which…is really hard, but I can keep focusing on the people I help and that’ll get me through.

  58. Snailing*

    Emotional/stress help?
    I work for a national company but in a local field office in a small city. It’s a fairly conservative area and South-ish. As a result, I really jive with what out corporate and even regional head office are doing with DEI and covid measures, but these are non-existent, if not laughed at, in my field office. I’m worried for my own safety (1. I’m the same demographic group as my local coworkers and 2. I’m vaccinated) but I feel on guard on an emotional level every time I have to go to the office. I’m constantly bracing myself for what the next effed up thing if going to come out of my boss’s mouth, especially.

    Any tips on how to deal? Once I’ve pass my SHRM exam (omg 3 weeks to go) and half maybe another year under my belt here, I plan to try to leave. But I also like the company as a whole; I just don’t want to move to work at a different office.

  59. Decima Dewey*

    Today is the last day I’ll Acting Branch Manager while my boss, Pangloss, was on medical leave. And I realize I’m going to have to make some changes to the way I act as a subordinate.

    First, Pangloss told me he’d be out for two weeks for treatment for early stage prostate cancer, and that if he felt better sooner he’d be back sooner. He also told me not to tell the rest of the staff “because people might worry”. Fine, his story to tell. It wasn’t until he told the rest of the staff he’d be out that he said that two weeks was the best case scenario–for most people it’s four weeks. I did tell him that, in future, I need to plan for, well, not the worst case scenario, but a more realistic scenario than the best case. Pangloss also didn’t tell the rest of the staff why he’d be out on medical leave. Dixon, our guard, asked why Pangloss would be out, and was told “a medical procedure.” My thought is that the rest of the staff should have been told, but, again, his story to tell. According to Grandboss, he’ll be back on Monday, so his being out amounted to just under 4 weeks.

    Second, on his last day before medical leave, Pangloss told me that if Renee and Dixon were still at Branch in a year, he’d be asking for a transfer. I’ve since gotten the feeling that Grandboss would throw a ticker tape parade if Pangloss did transfer out from under her purview. Renee and Dixon would hire a Mummer’s String Band to play “So Long, It’s Been Good to Know You.” The union rep for Renee and Dixon has sworn that she will not allow another member of her union to be transferred out of Branch, that Pangloss will have to be the one to go.

    Third, Pangloss told me how timesheets would be handled in his absence. His explanation didn’t make sense. And the reason it didn’t make sense was that he made it up his own self “with his degenerate cunning.” (No, I’m not calling Pangloss a degenerate, it’s a reference to the Dorothy Parker story “The Waltz”). But that didn’t matter, because Grandboss notified me during my first full week as Acting Branch Manager that the starting the following week we would all be entering our own time on Buggy As All Get Out System. Also that due to what Grandboss called a glitch in the system, I don’t qualify to approve Branch staff’s time. I thank the most merciful for that particular “glitch”. Now if the system messes up anybody’s time but my own, it’s not my problem.

    So, going forward, I’m going to have to doublecheck what Pangloss tells me, if I haven’t actually seen an email from Grandboss or above. In all fairness, he believes that what he is saying is the way things will be done. He just has a tendency to misunderstand things.

    I’m also afraid that Pangloss, who should be the one to approve Branch staff’s time, will try to make me the human time clock again. Several people have assured me that it’s going to be his responsibility to take notice of when Renee and Dixon come to work, which will mean Pangloss actually getting to work in time to see them come in (or not, as the case may be). From experience, I know he’ll try to get me to keep track of when they come in, when they go to lunch.

    I’m expecting that it’ll take Pangloss more time to recover than he thinks, and that I’ll have to be flexible until he’s okay again. Renee and Dixon have made noises about calling out on Monday, and I hope they’re joking, but that will be Pangloss’s problem.

    1. Dancing Otter*

      All’s for the best in the best of all possible worlds? But I don’t remember Dixon or Renee in Candide…

  60. Potatoes gonna potate*

    It’s a bit of low stakes questions and very much a “know your person” type, but I’m just curious how people generally do it.

    When 95% of communication in a company is done through chatting, do you say “hello name” and get right into the question or do you wait until they acknowledge your message?

    I’m just curious if there’s a standard way to do it, and if not, how do you all do it?

    1. DoomCarrot*

      People who just say “hello” and don’t actually say what they need drives me batty, personally.

      2. Riffy McRiffed*

        I prefer to be this direct, but every workplace culture I’ve ever been in people expect a cursory exchange of greetings and chit chat that takes way longer than I like!

        2. fhqwhgads*

          This has not been my experience with my workplaces. I’m also assuming the question about “chat” is not outlout verbal chatting but meaning chat programs.

      3. Eden*

        Hard same. Chat conversations are already annoying enough because you never know if people are even giving you 100% attention. I’ve stopped acknowledging people who just say “Hi Eden” because I have no idea if the real message will take 5 more seconds or 5 more minutes and staring at an empty screen is very annoying. I’ll answer when they say something.

        I assume they do this because in person, of course you’d say “hi” first and wait for the person to acknowledge you! But that’s because if you say “hi eden” and I don’t say hi back, it probably means I won’t hear your request. Text isn’t like that! I’ll see your message when I open slack, it’ll still be there, so just… send it.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I would normally say “Hi Potatoes, do you have a minute” or “Potatoes, is this a good time to ask a question” or something along those lines.

      1. Snailing*

        I’d personally still mention quickly what I need the minute for, “Hey Potatoes, when you have moment, can we talk about the X project?”

        1. DoomCarrot*

          That’s a good way of doing it. Include the greeting, show it’s not something that has to be done right now, but already tell them what it’s about.

          And then, of course, don’t badger them if it’s not urgent…

    3. BlueBelle*

      I hate when people just say hi and don’t get to what they need. If I am busy and they tell me what they need as soon as I can I will respond back and usually be able to get their request done before I respond. If they have to wait an hour for me to get off a call, then wait for me to respond, then wait for me to get the info it has delayed it even longer. I usually say “Hi name! Happy Friday! When you get a chance can you send me over X?”

    4. LQ*

      launch right into it, though I have folks who “Hello LQ,” who I think are just the best, but they are people I otherwise like too so ymmv.

      The only thing I would wait for acknowledgement on is if the thing you have to say shouldn’t be broadcast and you aren’t sure if they’re in a meeting/screen share.

      1. violet04*

        We use Teams and if you start sharing your status immediately goes to Do Not Disturb and you don’t get see any messages. I think even Outlook email notifications are blocked too, which is nice.

        1. LQ*

          Theoretically, ours is too, but you can override it – which some people do, and sometimes we are in not teams meetings. I’ve been bitten enough that I just text or wait depending.

    5. SoloKid*

      I say Hello Name and get right into it. I’m breaking their focus anyway, might as well let them know the reason.

      If they have their notifications turned off they’re going to miss my “hi” just as much as the full message, so I say get on with it.

      1. Sparkles McFadden*

        Yes…don’t make the person write back to ask what’s up. Say what you want and let them answer when they can.

    6. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I often forget that people like the pleasantries, so mine invariably end up looking like

      Red: “When you have a second, can you help me figure out a question about the June teapot report?”
      Red: “(Good morning!)”

    7. often trapped under a cat*

      At my place it looks like it varies by what’s needed.

      I rarely say “hello” in chat unless I am going to ask for a lot of the person’s time right then. Then I say, “hey, Name, got a minute for me?” and wait to hear back. Then we either have a chat conversation or an actual conversation.

      If it’s just an fyi or a “please do” or something like that, I just drop the message, no niceties.

      There are a few people who always say “hi” first, but most of my coworkers seem to handle chat the way I do. This may be because we have some big chat groups, where greeting people before you post would be weird.

    8. violet04*

      I will start with some kind of greeting and then jump into the question – all in one message. I will use line breaks to make it more readable.

      “Hello Fergus. Good morning!
      Do you know if the code fix for that software issue was delivered to the test team?”

      We use Teams and I hate getting multiple notifications for each message. They just crowd up my screen and distract me. Sometimes I’ll get three messages like this:

      “Hello”
      “I have a quick question”
      “Did you get the updated cover sheet for your TPS reports?”

      I prefer the greeting and question all in one.

    10. MissCoco*

      Coworker/ someone of similar seniority/job urgency: “Hey Potato, question question question”

      For someone of higher job urgency/Big Boss: “Hi Big Boss, do you have a minute for a question?” (And I have my question typed out and ready to copy-paste)

  61. DoomCarrot*

    Hooray! I’m starting a new job!

    And it will be my first time managing someone.

    But it’s tricky because this person is an internal candidate that also applied to my job and was offered an assistant position in this project instead. I’m simply much better qualified. But I still know it must sting. And also, while we both have degrees, they’re in fields that are traditionally in competition/view one another with suspicion, though I don’t share those views.

    I’m supposed to have a web meeting with him next week to get to know him.

    Any tips on how to make it less awkward? How to show that yes, I value his input, inside knowledge and different background expertise, but also, it’s my project to lead?

    I’ve suggested we discuss our relative strengths and see what we can accomplish together and what we need an outside contractor for, to establish the idea that we’re on the same team and neither needs to be perfect.

    1. Unkempt Flatware*

      I think you should go into it just like you would without any knowledge of whether they applied for the job. It’s easy to see through things we think are subtle. This person may have applied knowing they wouldn’t get the job but wanted the exposure to higher order interviews and conversations. You just never know.

      Go into the meeting with a genuine interest in learning about his job and his work and his approaches to the work. Do not judge or offer much advice during your first meetings. This is about really learning his work so you know how to support him. His feelings about your getting the job, honestly, are just none of your business.

    2. CatMom*

      I have been in the assistant person’s exact position in a previous job. I was an internal candidate and the person they hired as the lead had more specific experience, so they got offered the lead job, and once I negotiated that I wouldn’t be taking a pay cut by accepting the transfer to the assistant job, I was perfectly fine with the job I’d been offered and prepared to work with my new boss.

      I would say wait and see and I second what Unkempt Flatware said as well.

  62. Begin at the Beguine*

    I’ve had an interesting week. It’s been oddly hectic with several complicated assignments that unexpectedly arrived on my doorstep. I thought I had been clear with folks, but somewhere along the way misunderstandings arose (that I was not privvy to) and now I’m left holding a bag that needs sorting out. I know dealing with people and individual levels of understanding about how things work, particularly on VERY specific niche things, can lead to confusion. I know I tried to reduce confusion and felt I was explicit, yet confusion still reigned. Then I was hit with a technical mistake I made that threw me for a loop. I don’t know why I made the mistake and while the mistake isn’t massive and probably noticed by very few people, it’s not a good look for those who may have experienced the glitch. I can’t fix what has been done, but can certainly make sure it doesn’t happen again.

    But, the reason for this whole story, is that my boss is super supportive and recently implied she values my work (it was in a general conversation about raises at the company). And to be honest, the way things went this week, I feel her trust and compliments are misplaced. I know this feels like pretty standard imposter syndrome. But, I’ve had issues at past jobs where I was appreciated until suddenly I wasn’t and things quickly turned toxic to the point where it was evident I was being managed out. And now my head is swimming in conflict and anxiety. I regularly swing from feelings of competence to feeling incompetent, and the constant evaluation of myself, my work, and my abilities (both personally and professionally) makes me want to quit my job and take on something with less responsibility.

    1. JelloStapler*

      I’ve been in this place before. Imposter syndrome sucks! What I found is just to be sincerely acknowledge any miscommunication and ask people for feedback on what would have helped so that you can adjust for the future. Miscommunication and mistakes happen and you need to make sure that you draw a line between putting it all on yourself versus accepting that things won’t always be perfect and moving forward from it.

      I’m not saying this is easy – it took me a long time to get over the situation myself! But I found out since that the way I approached it was really helpful to other people. Plus I too felt like faith in me was misplaced however my boss has kept on telling me that it wasn’t. Deep breath- you’re human.

  63. Eleanor Knope*

    Just wanted to thank everyone who chimed in a month or so ago about pumping at work :) I got a lot of reminders that needing to supplement with formula is not a big deal, and — turns out you were all right! I’ve started supplementing one or two bottles a day, and being more diligent about cutting out of meetings to pump. I still find it to be a total chore, but at least with the stress of not producing enough gone, it’s not as emotional. And taking the emotion out of it has made my work days a lot less draining than they had been.

    Thanks again!

    1. Double A*

      It is so stressful to feel like you’re the only possible source of nutrition for your baby. Embracing formula as a supplement is so freeing! And ironically can make it easier to breast feed and pump because you’re more relaxed.

    2. JelloStapler*

      Oh pumping at work is so hard!! I’m glad you feel better about it and I found ways to manage. When I started the weaning process with my boys, pumping was the first thing to get reduced then left behind. :)

  64. Riffy McRiffed*

    No longer unemployed! I started in a newly created role at a great company doing my favorites bits of profession. Easiest job search ever with pretty minimal effort. Super fortunate! I wish it was always this easy to find work.

    I don’t know how families without a healthy financial safety net pay the bills while on unemployment. Max benefit in my state works out to an equivilent pay of under $10/hr, and cost of living is high.

    2. JustaTech*

      Congrats! That sounds completely awesome!

      (No idea either. More of that useless Puritanical mindset, I’m sure.)

  65. Liesl is my dachshund*

    Cover letters: Referencing publicly acquired details about the Executive Director (from LinkedIn) as it relates to the position.

    Ex: The Executive Director is new to the organization. They do not have a strong non-profit background. This is the first time they’ve been an Ex. Director, too. Their strengths are finance, business development, operations, process/procedure, etc. I would bring the non-profit expertise (in all areas).

    I would like to say something to the effect that my non-profit experience would complement their business acumen. I would help them advance their first-year goals, as a new ED, and put their strategic plan (don’t know if they have one) into action, etc.

    I’ve been an Executive Director before (2010-2012) and I’ve worked every role in non-profit in my 20 years so my knowledge and expertise ‘outranks’ him in many areas, but his in finance and administration is where I’m not as strong (or interested) It could possibly be a good partnership.

    Is it weird to reference this even though it’s public knowledge?

    1. Camelid coordinator*

      I think you could highlight your skills and what you would bring without calling attention to the ED’s lack of experience in those areas. Let the ED think it is happy coincidence your skillsets are so complementary.

      1. Liesl is my dachshund*

        Oh yeah, I didn’t transition from what I would write in the cover letter to background information about me that was for the post only.

        Absolutely, I wouldn’t highlight their weaknesses in any way. May as well write it and set it on fire doing that right?

  66. Katie*

    Can anybody explain to me how on earth does hot desking work?

    There’s talk in my office now of us heading back in with a hybrid model for everyone in sometime around Q3/Q4 depending on vaccine schedules and how long it takes them to re-organise the office. This means we’ll be moving away from assigned desks in an open plan office to an almost entirely hot desking situation. Only partners of the firm will have permanent offices. As somebody who has always worked from an assigned desk – how on earth does hot desking actually work in practice? Is it a free for all every morning? What happens if they run out of desks if everyone decides they want to come in on a random Thursday? Does anybody have any insight or tips as to what works and what doesn’t? One of the big benefits of us all coming back is that our team can work on tasks together in person again, but with the company having over 300 people spread out over 3 floors, how will that work if I grab a seat on the 2nd floor and my colleague can only find a spot on the 3rd? Hot desking seems like an okay trade off if I get to work from home 50% of the time, but I’m stumped as to how this will actually play out in reality.

    Also, a less important question but as somebody who takes public transport to work (as to 80% of my co-workers) I have always used my desk for storing shoes for the office, some snacks, hand cream, tissues, my mug, water bottle, any miscellaneous comforts. I obviously can’t do that if I don’t have a permanent desk, so what do people do to make life better in a hot desking office? Lockers? A backpack for the day that has everything you need? I’m lost as to how to prepare for this!

    1. basicallynocturnal*

      More organized offices may put in a place a reservation system. Presumably the team can reserve a “neighborhood” or at least tables adjacent to each other? For offices that are turning to hotdesking, it is also recommended to provide lockers for employees to use when they come to office. As for food, depending on whether fridges/microwaves are allowed (due to COVID), some employers are asking employees to bring food that doesn’t need to be warmed up, and can be kept in insulated carry bags.

      1. basicallynocturnal*

        Conference rooms or other collaboration spaces might also be made available for teams for meetings

      2. often trapped under a cat*

        We’ve been hotdesking/hybrid for months, with a small group, and it looks like that’s going to be the model going forward for the whole company, most of whom have been working fully remote since winter 2020.

        We have a reservation system and apparently will have a more robust one when the whole place is involved. Even C-suite level staff are losing their offices/desks (at least per the latest announcement).

        We will have neighborhoods so that departments can sit together. We will have lockers, though it’s not clear yet how many and I suspect they will be primarily for the use of people who are working consecutive days.

        In the current system, if you come in the same days every week and always ask for the same desk, it becomes reserved to you for those days, which is nice. I’m hoping that will continue, with a period where you can move around until you find a desk you like.

        No one has discussed food restrictions; at the moment, we have communal fridges and eating areas, but you can also eat at your desk.

        It IS a pain in the neck to carry everything you need back and forth every day and I don’t think we’ve solved that problem yet. I mean, in the before times, I kept analgesics, my favorite tea(s), skin lotion, chocolate, and all sorts of stuff that I used regularly but not every day, in my desk. I’m carrying tea bags and a small pill bottle now, but really don’t want to carry everything all the time. (I also take public transportation every day.)

        We can book conference rooms and phone booths for meetings; there’s a reservation system for that. They are planning to create more phone booths before we return to the office.

        So it’s still in development.

        I haven’t found the reality so far to be as awful as I was anticipating but I am able and mostly neurotypical, and that makes a difference.

    2. Coenobita*

      We had a version of hot-desking pre-pandemic. We used a reservation/check-in system where you had to reserve a desk in advance and then check in by a certain time if you were really there. However, people who worked in the office most of the time had nominally assigned seats, grouped by department. So I could reserve “my” desk for up to three months at a time, and I definitely kept my shoes in a basket under the desk. But if I was out of the office, like if I was traveling for a week, I’d cancel my reservation for those days and I knew that someone else might be sitting there while I was gone. There were also unassigned desks that were used for actual hot-desking. There were varying levels of compliance in this system but overall it worked pretty well.

    3. No Tribble At All*

      When I worked a job that had designated workstations instead of desks (today you sat at the Teapot Painting desk, tomorrow you sat at the Teapot Glazing desk), we had a bank of lockers near all the workstations for those teams. I kept an extra sweater, spare glasses, and some snacks there. Not quite hot-desking, but similar in that you want a secure, consistent place for your own personal items.

    4. Toronto parent*

      I’ve worked in a hot desking environment for a few years. Basically my company has an online reservation system to book a desk for the days you need. The only time we ever ran out of desks was during all company meeting days. I would usually book my desks a couple of weeks ahead of time, depending on my meeting schedule, which usually dictated whether I needed to be in the office.

      Some departments generally clustered together but not mine. If my team wanted to work on something together we would usually book a meeting room to do it.

      Previous to COVID, a lot of people would claim a drawer at the desk they used most frequently to store things like work shoes. But they’ve now installed lockers for everyone for when we finally go back to the office.

      When I first started, I wasn’t so sure about the hot desking but now I find it works pretty well. It means you never have to always sit next to that one annoying coworker and it definitely helps to cut down on how much paper you keep.

    5. Fitz*

      My last company transitioned to a hot desking setup (to save money when moving to a more expensive space). Losing an individual desk was a pain for several things, but mainly convenience. We had individual lockers to put our coats, bags, etc and another separate bathroom locker for hygiene things. Snacks and whatnot were just held in bags that you carried around, but we also had strict no eating rules because of the lab space.
      With regard to team placement… yeah, there’s no great solution to this. Each of our departments/department groups had a set of floors that they were assigned (office and lab space) that you had to stick to. But it still meant that I often worked on a different floor from my boss. Not a big deal, since my team’s work was mostly independent but obviously YMMV. Most people settled into certain places based on their schedules (if you got there earlier, you got your pick), and if you happened to move around, you had to always have your phone on you so someone could track you down.
      And this was also in a place where most of the 400+ staff commuted by public transit. I just made sure to get there early enough to get a spot close enough to the lab space so I didn’t have to change floors too often. It wasn’t too bad when I was there, since the ratio of space to staff wasn’t 1:1 yet, but they were planning to expand the amount of staff… which had the potential of forcing a twisted game of office musical chairs.

    6. Girasol*

      I suppose each company has their own way of doing it. One of our offices had a limited number of hotdesk cubes but a locking, rolling file cabinet for each person who sometimes came in. Whoever was in would roll their cabinet to their desk of the day, plug their laptop into the docking station to connect it to the hotdesk monitor and keyboard, and go to work. Folks seemed pretty happy with the arrangement.

  67. JustaTech*

    Hopefully next-to-last Betty update:

    It sure feels like Betty is going out of her way to make sure I don’t miss her when she’s gone next week. Our recent studies haven’t worked out at all (not because of anything we did, but still so wrong as to be pretty much unusable), and Betty has consistently been pushing me to just cancel the whole thing (even though I scaled back her involvement to the minimum and gave her the least inconvenient times).

    Then there were more vendor issues (outside of any of our control) that spiraled into having to push a training session back a day, and when we got to the training session Betty made it clear that I was not wanted (I am the expert and senior trainer). Then she asked me to do a thing that I thought was 1) a waste of materials and 2) something she should have done when we set up days before. I will fully admit I didn’t hide that I wasn’t happy about doing this, but I did it, then pointed out something that was wrong and she shouted at me (significantly raised her voice) that I was “so negative” and that I should “take my negativity elsewhere”.

    And I very nearly cried, which at least one of my coworkers who was in the training saw (but he said nothing).

    I left and went to a meeting and tried to stay out of the training area (except that something broke which I just took the blame for even though it wasn’t exactly my fault), and tried to show a professional face for the rest of the day.

    Then, after I’d gotten home and was trying to put the whole thing out of my mind Betty accidentally texted me to complain about how terrible I am. I replied “wrong number, Betty” and she texted back that I needed to know what I’m like for the sake of her replacement.

    I have not spoken to her since, although she did IM me to apologize for the text.

    I will fully admit I’m at BEC with Betty, but I’ve also realized that she’s the only coworker I’ve had that has made me cry at work more than once, and regularly states that I am wrong and at fault (and a bad person) for setting boundaries.

    I’m sad because we used to work so well together, but something serious has fractured in our relationship and what used to be very minor friction has turned into complete non-function.

    1. Unkempt Flatware*

      Well, you do have boundaries but it doesn’t seem you protect them very well. You did something you didn’t want to and made it clear but that in itself is a mixed message. Here, you’ve said she asked you to do something you didn’t agree with and that she should have done herself–then you did it while complaining. Then you said that she shouted at you and didn’t say whether or not you stood up for yourself. She made you feel unwanted even though you are the senior trainer and you were the one who suffered instead of her. She should have been told that you were leading this training or are at this training and her feelings/opinions about it are not welcome and are hers to manage. When she apologized for that childish bullshit text, you should have simply said you cannot accept and move on. She makes you cry at work because while you have boundaries, you are not honoring them. When we get to that point where we are about to cry/yell/stomp off, we’ve already let boundaries get trampled.

      1. JustaTech*

        You’re completly right. I’m not used to having coworkers who don’t understand the boundaries of “work friend”, so I’m not used to having to enforce boundaries. (Basically the only people I have to be super clear about boundaries with are Betty and my MIL.)

        And since she’s leaving so soon, it doesn’t feel worth the effort to keep trying to correct her. Which probably isn’t the “correct” way of dealing with it, but I’m already spent from dealing with all of the problems of my actual work and all the things I’ll have to take on when Betty leaves that I am actively choosing to not confront her about her words or actions. I just don’t have the energy to deal with her getting upset at me again.

        At least I can say I’ve learned some important things about myself and the importance of boundaries (in general but especially at work), so, silver linings and all that.

        1. allathian*

          Are you counting down the days to her departure? Just be sure to block her number when you no longer need to be able to contact her for work stuff.

        2. Unkempt Flatware*

          Oh yeah. Betty should just sail off into the sunset without anything from you. She sounds like a middle schooler. It’s hard not to act like one when confronted by these types. I look forward to hearing how things turn around at work–because they will. Then you’ll have normal people to assert your boundaries with and life will be good.

          1. JustaTech*

            Middle school is right!

            She can be very middle school, and middle school was not a great time for me and I’ve still got some baggage from that (hopefully down to a carry-on) so I have less resilience against not reacting to that kind of behavior. Betty will also some times jokingly play at “younger sibling” behaviors which also tend to set me off (and she knows why, but for some reason occasionally thinks it’s funny to poke at).

            I think that some of the behavior is a side effect of the pandemic. Betty’s a very outgoing extroverted person, and in the Before Times she had lots of friends and acquaintances (and other coworkers) to spend her energy at/with. But when everything shut down and then we had layoffs I became kind of her only energy receptacle, and that is just not something I can do ever, let alone in a pandemic. So me more assertively protecting my time/energy was to her me blowing her off. Hence the trip back to middle school.

            You’re right that things will get better after she leaves. When our other coworker (who I liked as a person and as a coworker) got laid off I did think “well at least now I won’t have to spend a bunch of time mediating her and Betty’s interactions”, and that was true.

            Maybe I should make that an interview question for her replacement “do you understand the difference between work friends and friend-friends?” (I would not do this.)

            1. allathian*

              Has your other coworker found another job or will she return when Betty leaves?

              1. JustaTech*

                My other coworker has found another job, and honestly for her sake I wouldn’t want her back; not because she isn’t good at her job, but this job has never been what she was promised or made good use of her skills and I’d rather train a new person than have her back and miserable again.

        3. JelloStapler*

          If I may be blunt, If you don’t find it worth it to put down the boundaries you’re going to have to find a way not to let her comments impact you the point of crying for the next week.

    2. CheeseWhizzard*

      You do not have to be nice to this person. Professional, yes, but she’s leaving and dislikes you so you don’t have to worry about burning bridges with her. Even just blocking her number will help.

      Part of setting boundaries involves not allowing other people to influence your emotional state. Betty thrives on making you upset – that’s a boundary violation. I strongly recommend therapy to learn more about practicing this. It’s a learned skill and mindset that many of us have trouble with at first.

      1. JustaTech*

        Ooohh. I didn’t know that setting boundaries could do *that*.

        When I was a kid I was forever being told to “just ignore” the people who upset me (my younger brother, the girl who tormented me in middle school) and was never able to do that. (I have a hard time ignoring a lot of things – alarms, screens, other people’s conversations. I think it’s partly the ADHD.)

        I didn’t know it was something I could *learn*. I assumed it was just one of the things that everyone else automatically knows how to do.

        1. allathian*

          No, it’s not an inborn skill. Remarkably few things are, come to think.

          Just ignoring your tormentors is a hard skill to learn, especially if you can’t get away from them, like in a lab setting or at home, especially if your living space is cramped or you share a room with a sibling you can’t stand.

          Good luck, I hope you can find some help in setting emotional boundaries for the future, even if Betty won’t be there to torment you for much longer.

          When your new coworker starts, you can set your boundaries again with a new person, although I certainly hope for your sake that they’ll be more reasonable than Betty.

        2. JelloStapler*

          I relate! And it’s been something I’ve had to work on (thus my blunt comment above- I’ve had to say that to myself). Ignore doesn’t mean ignore and suffer It means put them aside and acknowledge their emotional crap they have to deal with on their own. This would be harder to do if Betty was staying but since she’s leaving you just got to get through another week.

        3. The teapots are on fire*

          I’m late to the party but I had the same experience in middle school and it took me years to learn the “you’re not the boss of my feelings” boundaries. It’s not a perfect skill that works all the time, but makes a huuuuuge difference. It’s very freeing to be able to look at someone who’s yelling at you and calmly say, “you can’t talk to me like that,” and walk away. I still get upset but in a much less helpless way.

    3. JelloStapler*

      This is Betty, not you. She is an outright bully and targets you. Put the line down harder this next week.

      I haven’t been following the story too much so I’m not sure if you’ve discussed this with the boss or your coworkers?

  68. basicallynocturnal*

    I have a mild networking conundrum. While job searching a couple of months ago, I contacted one of my mentors “Lydia” to ask if she could connect me with one of her peers, “Anna”. Anna is a director at a firm I was looking into, and had previously expressed interest in having me join their team. However the pandemic happened and I never heard back from Anna.

    I did not get a response from Lydia for over two months. Understandably she had a lot of her plate and I assume she had forgotten. In the intervening time, I had acquired a new job that I am very happy at. However, before I could let Lydia know about my new job, she suddenly responded that she had contacted Anna. I immediately let Lydia know that I’d found a new job, but that I was happy to connect and speak to Anna if that made things less awkward. Anna told Lydia that I should contact her late this month.

    Now that the time is nearly here, I’m kind of at a loss as to how to broach this meet up with Anna. It’s not an interview because I have a job (at a competitor no less) that I am happy with. Should I frame it as a mentorship / learning type of meet up?

    1. Snailing*

      I’d say learning/networking – frame it like “Lydia has said so much about your experience in X and how it jives with my goals in Y.” Perhaps not mentoring because (1) you already have a mentor in Lydia and (2) that level of commitment is likely not what Anna is expecting at this time. But who knows – she could turn into another mentor, this could end up being a really cool one-off informational interview, and also networking for the future when you’re ready to make your next move!

    2. ferrina*

      Exactly as Snailing says. Treat it like an informational interview, because it is! And really, that’s likely what it was all along. Usually networking doesn’t mean “we’ve got a job for you right now”. When I get a random request to be connected, I assume it’s a informational interview. I’m not signing on to a mentorship role (which is longer term) or interviewing a candidate (which is completely different for me). I’m prepping to give a little background and nuance to the industry and expectations.

      Some questions that could be really helpful:
      – How did Anna get to where she is today (if that’s where you want to go)? What career paths do others tend to follow to get there?
      – What skills should you seek to develop at this stage in your career (particularly in light of your new job)? Are there opportunities I should keep an eye on? How can I be exposed to/earn new opportunities?
      – (If the new job is a new role for you) Have you had this role before? What are stumbling blocks you’ve seen people run in to, and how do I avoid those?
      – (If this new job is a familiar role for you) I’d love to take my career to the next level. What should I be working on now to make that happen? How will I know when I’m ready for that next level of seniority?
      – When you were at the career stage I am currently at, what is some advice you wish someone had given you?

  69. Valamaldoran*

    I’m looking to switch to work from home proofreading or copy editing. Any advice or experience is appreciated!

    I’m located in the US, and don’t need benefits/health insurance.

    I have a Bachelor’s in English Lit, and a Master’s in Library Science, and have edited (published) books for family members freelance since graduating college.

    Has anyone done work for proofreadingservices dot com? Or are there any other companies you recommend? Or anything else you think I should know?

    Thank you!

    2. Olive Hornby*

      Take a copyediting course! I work with freelance copy editors, and the hiring process involves a very challenging test; I’m a developmental book editor and did really well in English classes, but I’d never get hired for copyediting or proofreading on that basis, in part because much of the job involves knowing obscure rules in Chicago style as opposed to AP. A copyediting course will give you the skills you need to make the switch.

    3. meyer lemon*

      This will depend on where you live, but I would check out any professional editors’ associations near you. They will often offer services like workshops, professional certifications, resources like invoice templates, and boards where you can list yourself as an available freelance editor. Editors tend to be a pretty friendly and helpful group as well, so it’s good to make some connections with others working near you.

      Most successful freelancers I know cast a pretty wide net in terms of clients. As a general rule, if you can pick up a few corporate clients, those will be financially more sustainable than relying entirely on book publishers or self-publishing authors. In the corporate sphere, you can easily double your rates over what you can charge in publishing.

      Good luck!

  70. slater-n*

    I’ve been waiting all week to tell this story! We have a new guy in charge of volunteer recruitment, I’m gonna call him AL because turns out he’s an ABSOLUTE LEGEND! He’s been with us about 2 months and he’s pretty low on the totem pole – he has no direct reports and doesn’t really manage anyone, he just brings people in and assigns them around. Well this week he was leading a Zoom meeting with various department heads to talk about their needs and the CEO joined from his car. New Guy STOPPED THE MEETING and asked the CEO to pull over before he would continue. My new hero!!!!

    4. Brent*

      Great job, AL! There was a letter here last year about taking zoom calls while driving. It disgusted me that so many people were defending her action.

  71. My Employee Works Too Much*

    Thank you to everyone for your comments the last 2 Fridays about my employee, Fergus, who works too much and is burning out (especially thanks to the commenter who pointed me in the direction of the letter “My Employee Overproduces and it’s Costing Us Money”). Last week we identified that Fergus had taken over part of the responsibilities of our department assistant, Lee, and so I spoke with Lee and got them started on a training plan to take back tasks that Fergus had been doing. At this point, most of those have been offloaded from Fergus’s plate.

    However, Fergus has still been working 3+ extra hours every day, and I had a hard time figuring out what was going on, since he’d told me that he was spending that time doing Lee’s tasks. Then I had my weekly meeting with Jane, the junior employee Fergus has been training. Jane really likes Fergus so getting this kind of information from her was hard – but essentially, she is frustrated because Fergus micromanages her tasks and then goes back through ALL her work to double check it. When Jane submits assignments to me, Fergus has gone through them, edited them, sent them back to Jane, asked her to send back to him for further edits, etc. (I didn’t know that this was happening and Jane thought that since Fergus is senior to her, she couldn’t push back). That’s where he’s been spending all his extra time, and he insists it’s necessary. It’s not.

    My boss doesn’t want to treat it as a performance issue because Fergus is our most experienced team member and if he quit it would be hard to find someone with similar skills and experience. However, I’m getting super frustrated, and I don’t really know if there’s anything I can do as Fergus’s manager since my boss isn’t behind it. Sigh.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      But it is a performance issue! Think how much good work you could get out of Fergus if he wasn’t wasting his time.

      “Fergus, we want to free you up from the (boring work that Jane does) so you can do the important and fun work that you’re uniquely qualified for.”

      Talk to Fergus specifically about this. Does he think his reputation will suffer if Jane’s work is sub-par?

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I mean, tell Fergus to stop doing extra rounds of edits with Jane. It should be that simple. You could couch it as “I need to know how her work is progressing without you essentially redoing it for her,” if you really think it’s necessary.

      But when Fergus goes “No, I really think Jane needs the extra blah blah whatever,” you are his manager, and you say “I disagree. Please have Jane submit her work to me without your extended input – as your manager, this is not where I want you spending your time.”

    3. irene adler*

      What would it take for Fergus to trust that Jane’s work is fine on its own? Can Fergus articulate that for you? IN Fergus’ opinion, does Jane need to be trained on something that she’s not already competent doing on her own now? I recognize she’s competent and she needs no training. Maybe Fergus needs to recognize that for himself.

      I agree with your boss in not treating this as a performance issue.
      But looking long-term, what happens when or if – Fergus leaves/retires or (heaven forbid) dies unexpectedly?

      Can the department establish a plan with the goal of having Jane assume Fergus’ position at some point down the line? As part of that plan, Fergus imparts any needed training to Jane. Hopefully this will reduce his need to review/edit all of her work product . It might allow you to point out that he’s not needing to double-check the work for 3 hours a day (“You trained her Fergus. She knows her stuff!”).

      1. Artemesia*

        when I dealt with a Fergus it was overreach because he in fact was not great at his core job. Maybe not true here, but people like this love to overcomplicate things and try to make themselves indispensable. Is he also an information hoarder? Look closer as it may actually BE a performance problem. In any case, you need to spell it out clearly that he is to stay in his lane and not take on the work of others because it undermines them and also obscures problem areas. You will have to say this clearly and several times with specific tasks he is NOT to do.

      2. ferrina*

        The Fergus that I work with thinks that she will always know more than those around her. Even though I’m senior to her by two levels (though she isn’t in my reporting line), she feels that she is Uniquely Qualified to review my work (she isn’t). Her standards also aren’t realistic (too much time for minimal impact) and/or aren’t actually aligned with what we need to do (she likes to think her objectives are better than client objectives. Even if they are, that’s not what we’re paid to do).
        She seems to be motivated by insecurity- she’s afraid that if she’s not the sole owner in her thing, then no one will respect her. Therefore, in order to ensure that everyone respects her, she needs to always have final say on everything in her subject area.

        and yeah, it makes her really hard to work with and makes her work stupidly long hours that really aren’t necessary

        1. My Employee Works Too Much*

          Ah that’s a good point – I wonder if Fergus is feeling insecure or threatened that Jane has picked up things so quickly? The thing is, we have enough work for BOTH of them, that’s why we have 2 people in this position, though Fergus’s title is slightly senior to Jane’s.

    4. AnonEmployee*

      Can you just have Jane submit assignments to you without them going to Fergus? Change the workflow and remove Fergus from it. Though have you confirmed Jane’s work is up to the standards it needs to be, without Fergus’ intervention (since you wrote he’s been training her)? Maybe dig deeper into why he’s insisting that her work needs checking and revisions.

      1. My Employee Works Too Much*

        They both work out of a database that the whole team uses (and they both use a certain part of it), so it’s not exactly that she’s submitting work to him – he goes into the database to look over everything on his own. I will definitely have to dig deeper on this, it seems like a trust/control issue and I’m not sure where it’s coming from. It’s definitely not related to Jane herself – she’s an excellent worker with high attention to detail. That’s part of why we hired her.

        1. fhqwhgads*

          If you can’t get him to stop reviewing it, you can at least tell her directly that the next time he tries to assign her an edit, she should tell him no, you asked her not to do that. You should of course still tell him to stop going over all her stuff and stop requesting revisions from her, but if we assume he just…won’t, having her push back also, now that she knows she can could be good. He’s not her boss, you are. And you’re his boss. So you, the boss, will have told everyone involved that this is Not The Process.

    6. PollyQ*

      Of course it’s a performance issue — Fergus is doing a part of his job (delegation) badly. You may not be able to formally discipline Fergus without your boss’s support, but you should be able to directly tell him to cut that out. You should also be able to empower Jane to push back by telling him that you’ve directed her not to make changes to work that’s already been submitted to you. It may be that those two things will get him to snap out of it and no further action will be required.

    7. ferrina*

      Is Jane almost done with her training? Can you position this as the next step in Jane’s training- to submit her work directly to you?

      If I remember right, Jane reports to you. Tell Fergus that as the next step, you NEED Jane to send her work directly to you so you can evaluate where she is on her training. Tell Fergus flat out that he is NOT ALLOWED to review Jane’s work before it comes to you because that would mess up your evaluation.
      Then, tell Jane that this is what is happening. Tell her to refuse to send her work to Fergus ON YOUR ORDERS. You are Fergus’ boss- if he has any problems, he should go to you and you need to approve before Jane sends anything to him.

      I suspect that Fergus will have a big reaction when you tell him this. Correcting and doing other people’s work feels like almost a lifestyle or compulsion, and he may react in a BIG way when you take it away. Is there a different project you can give him? Tell him that since he doesn’t need to train Jane anymore (and that you are overseeing it and he is REQUIRED to report all concerns to you), you need him to spend his time working on [Stretch/High Visibility/Extremely Challenging Project] that he is uniquely qualified to do. If you can, I suspect it will help to position it not as “I don’t want you to train Jane” but as “You’re so valuable, we need you in multiple places, and Jane’s training can be done by Me while this project must be done by You.”

      1. My Employee Works Too Much*

        I love this idea, but what’s funny is this is sort of how we ended up here. Jane was officially finished with her training in December, and this is some sort of informal “coaching” he’s been doing since. I didn’t know it was happening so I started giving him bigger/higher level projects that are more suited to his skill level, and he has been doing them AND working late to “help” Jane. Jane seems to be convinced that she can’t do it right without Fergus’s help…and Fergus also seems convinced of this (which is a problem, on so many levels). Jane knows she doesn’t report to Fergus but likes him and seems to think of him as a mentor. And you are right, I do think Fergus will react in a BIG way when I talk to him about this. He got very argumentative at his annual review in February when I told him I’d like to see him delegate more to Jane now that she’s been trained. I’ve found he takes his work very personally and sees it as a personal attack if you tell him to do something in a different way. I realize that’s a red flag in itself, and also I’m just extra frustrated about the situation today. My boss knows all of this but isn’t willing to call it a performance issue or let me address it as one, because Fergus DOES produce good work for our department.

        1. tangerineRose*

          Can you tell Fergus that you don’t want him to burn out, and if he can leave Jane’s work as-is, he won’t have to overwork so much?

    8. BRR*

      Is your boss worried about the other employee turnover fergus will cause?

      I don’t remember how direct you’ve been with fergus but if you haven’t been super ultra clear that’s first. You also need to be clear with everyone else that if fergus oversteps they come to you.

  72. SunnyGirl*

    Let’s talk about phones. Do you remember the post about the employee that had no phone at all? And that his grandmother’s phone number was “his” number and it appeared that she was fielding his calls? (I can’t find the original post!)

    I’m astounded that he was able to find jobs, an apartment, set up utilities, etc. without a landline or a cell phone and that Grandma was willing to take any calls related to all of these adulting things. How did she tell him about the calls? Did he visit her daily? Did she email him?

    Now, I totally get it if you don’t want a cell phone; I was a long time hold out but I had a landline and while I personally don’t understand it, I acknowledge that lots of people have anxiety about speaking on a phone. I’m trying really hard to not be judgemental – mental health issues, money issues, privacy issues – but I’m just still floored that he was living – successfully? – without seemingly any kind of phone.

    1. Mental Lentil*

      I don’t remember this post, but I got anxiety just reading what you wrote. I can’t operate without a cell phone. My entire life is on that device.

  73. Bird*

    I’m applying for an open position at my current place of work. I told my supervisor I was interested, and she and my team members are very supportive, though we all know it would be a stretch position for me. My current supervisor is also the hiring manager for this position.

    So, I’m a little worried about who to put as references. My previous two jobs were quite toxic, and I only stayed for a year in each one. Can I ask my team members to be references? What about my last good supervisor (who last worked with me in 2018)?

    1. ferrina*

      My take (I’m non-HR) is that references are for when you aren’t familiar with the person’s prior work. A reference is a second source to confirm what the candidate is telling you (yes, they are reliable and delightful to work with).

      If your current supervisor is going to offer you the position, I would be surprised if you need references. She is already very familiar with your work! If you are required to put something, you can ask your supervisor if you can provide your current teammates as references. You can still use the reference from 2018- that was only a few years ago (assuming they worked with you for at least a year). If anyone asks, you can explain that this is the person that can best speak to your work. Make sure you reach out to your reference before you list them, though!

      1. Bird*

        Thank you! I work in an academic setting, so the hiring processes are weirdly rigid regarding certain things in order to preserve equity. I am hopeful to be a strong candidate (or at least competitive within the hiring pool for this position), but I do have less than the desired amount of specific experience in the field. So, having people speak to my work quality and collegiality may be more important than it would usually be.

        The person from 2018 is someone who supervised me for almost 6 years, who then worked tangentially with me for a further year (I was on a different team for that year). I will definitely reach out before I need to list anyone; if I need references, it will be after the interview – assuming I get that far!

  74. New Mom*

    I’m happy at my job, I work in a niche industry that I enjoy but I know that this is not the place I will retire. I want to get myself out there a bit more but I don’t know where to start. I’ve presented at a few conferences and online workshops, but I was wondering if I should start posting things on LinkedIn, or setting up a newsletter, or maybe even contacting podcasts to be a guest speaker on my niche topic (it involves paying for college, so it’s interesting to people). I’m pretty knowledgable on my topic and would like to establish myself as a content expert but not sure how to do that. Does anyone have advice for this?

  75. Helvetica*

    TL;dr How do you handle a micromanaging boss who doesn’t micromanage you but wants you to micromanage others?

    My boss is someone who’s very good at her job, and very passionate about it. But she is at her core a micromanager who finds it incredibly hard to trust other people to do their job. Strangely, this does not apply to her subordinates but anyone else. She doesn’t try and control what I do but if I need information from somewhere else, or if we’re waiting for someone else to complete a project, which also influences for our job, she is relentless about me checking up on it all the time. My style is more that we are all adults and unless I genuinely think someone has the habit of dropping the ball – and 90% of my colleagues don’t – I don’t want to needle people. We all have our duties, and we know we need to complete them and me micromanaging someone doesn’t really do much but annoy them.

    I’ve tried to push back slightly, to ask her to trust others and sometimes it works but it never really sticks fully, unless she’s had multiple experiences where the tasks have been fulfilled successfully. Is there anything you’ve succeeded with if you’ve had a similar situation?

    1. PX*

      Just say yes but dont do it? Or be proactive with telling her all the things you’ve already done and how on top of these other people you already are?

      I dont think you can fundamentally change her, so is it more about learning to be okay with her constantly asking you for updates?

    2. LQ*

      …If she trusts people after multiple experiences of tasks being fulfilled successfully I’m not sure she’s micromanaging. She’s just defaulting to not trusting until people have a proven track record rather than defaulting to trusting people until they have a proven track record (which seems to be your stance). I think that calling this micromanaging makes it harder to combat. (I’ll admit I’m a little more on the side of your boss because I’ve had a lot of folks fall on the not doing until checked up on side, not so many on the work turns where and when it should without prompting.) Part of what you can do is just show her track records in that case. “Sally’s gotten this to me on time the last 5 months, no problem.” or “Joe always delivers it one day early.”

      And then if it’s someone’s first time it’s, complex, whatever, volunteer that “I’ll check in with Jane on this one since it’s so different to see if she has any questions for me.”

      I don’t know that you can stop it, but you could cut back on a lot that way I think.

    3. JP*

      LMAO, she IS micromanaging you. She’s literally telling you how and when to have a conversation with another person about the project you’re both working on. She’s micromanaging your interactions.

      Don’t fall into the trap of trying to convince her to trust the other employees. Keep telling her it’s not your style to bug people that frequently and ask her why she keeps insisting that you do, or what she’s afraid is going to happen if you don’t. If she keeps stressing out about it, try to negotiate a compromise where you set a reasonable schedule to bug this person that is less frequent than what she’s asking for.

      But she’s probably not going to stop.

  76. Allura Vysoren*

    Does anyone have advice for running a remote job search while working in the office?

    I’ve been job hunting for almost a year, looking only at positions that are entirely remote. It was easy while working from home–scheduling interviews during my lunch or after work, even changing clothes before and after so no one would wonder why I’m not in my usual hoodie. I received notice yesterday that I’m expected back in the office full-time and I don’t know how to handle interviewing in that case. It’s not an option to run home during my lunch to interview and I don’t have any local friends. Will it be seen as unprofessional to do Zoom meetings from my phone in my car?

    1. RedinSC*

      Oh, I’ve taken interviews in my car, I don’t think it was problematic, but these were phone calls, not Zoom. However, I’d just make sure that you keep a nice coat or shirt in the car that you can put on over what you’re wearing and have your interview in your car. If there’s a place you can sit outside that’s quiet and secure you could even be outside. As a hiring manager I would not think this was weird.

    2. pancakes*

      I would hope interviewers would have more sense than to see it as unprofessional. It’s clearly a better solution than trying to do an interview from somewhere that isn’t private, or is noisy, or while driving!

      1. ferrina*

        As someone who has interviewed for remote positions, one thing I look for is good judgement in environment. If I’m going to put you on client calls, will you have a lot of background noise (barking dogs, traffic, screaming kids) or other disruptions? Hopefully not, but if so, will you know how to handle it with discretion?
        A high stakes meeting like an interview will show me what I can expect of you during a high stakes meeting with a client. I expect you to find a space to work with, and if you can’t do that for an interview, I want to know why I should expect you to be able to do that once I hire you. From the outside, I don’t know what limitations you may or may not have for this interview. I know plenty of remote hires who later showed that they didn’t have an appropriate space to work in and it impacted their ability to do the job (too noisy for meetings, or confidential information could be seen by others, kids or others constantly interrupting)

    3. ferrina*

      Does your office have a conference room or other private area (with a door) you can use where you wouldn’t be interrupted? That might be my first option. You can wear a nice shirt under your hoodie and carry a pencil pouch with a comb and make up (with a wipe to smudge off the make-up when you’re done).

      I would be a little weirded out to have someone interview from their car, but if you said “My company currently has me at the office, and this is the only private space I have during my break”, then I would quickly move past it. If you didn’t acknowledge or explain, I’d think it was a pretty odd and likely count it against you.

      There’s also the option to work a half day and stay home while you are doing the interview. If you’re finding that the car approach isn’t getting you a call back (and you can’t use space in the office), unfortunately this might be the way to go. Good luck!

      1. Allura Vysoren*

        Unfortunately no. My company only has two conference rooms, they’re not private, they’re always overbooked (often because people will use them without putting it on the shared calendar), it would be extremely suspicious for me to use one by myself, and while I don’t think it’s true it has been suggested that there is audio monitoring in them.

        I’ve also had the rather odd experience of my interviews coming in waves (I won’t hear anything for weeks and then I’ll have two or three or four interviews scheduled the same week) and I have to use PTO for half-days (I’m trying to resist doing that, as I don’t know how long this job search is going to last). It’s a good idea for a last resort or especially important interview.

        I’m not too worried about my dress now that it’s summer. I’ve been wearing hoodies all WFH because I work in my basement where it’s always freezing no matter what the weather outside. I used to wear my regular interview dress on normal work days pre-COVID so it shouldn’t be *too* note-worthy.

    5. ronda*

      back in the old days (and at in person interviews)….. I scheduled them before or after work.

      Is there one of those meeting places not far from your office (wework?). Maybe book a private room at that if so. Or library , or an office building that is not your company that you could find a quiet corner in the lobby?

  77. nona*

    I just have a funny “wrong email” story:

    My email address is FirstInitialLastName @ g mail. I get lots of misdirected emails, where the sender is obviously sending it to someone else. Many of them are funny. Some are a little concerning, because I sometimes end up with personal information because the person filling in the email doesn’t know what their own email address is?

    But yesterday I got 3 resumes from Canadian oil industry/roughnecker types, applying to some job listing (i guess). I do not work in Canada or the oil/gas industry, and am not hiring, so obviously someone provided the wrong email address.

    I do what I usually do and said “FYI this is not the email address you are looking for, because this email address gets you the wrong person, so double check with the job posting.” Nothing else I can do! The hiring person will just have to notice when he gets no applications?

  78. too personal*

    Do y’all think this is a red flag as part of a job application process or it is a somewhat awkward attempt to assess communication skills? It’s for a full time professional position. Weird that it goes to the ED directly??

    “In a separate email, please write to [executive director] and briefly answer the following two questions: 1. What’s one of your favorite movies and why do you like it so much? (Feel free to sub in your favorite TV show, album, or book instead of talking about a favorite movie) 2. So far, has anything positive come into your life since the start of the pandemic? If so, what is it? In the subject line of the email, please put the words [job title]”

    1. slater-n*

      Eh I’m not too worried about it. It does seem like they’re looking for writing skills. They’re not super invasive questions and they’re not asking for a huge amount of effort

    2. Snailing*

      Oh boy, that sounds just awful. Awkward enough that it feels like writing your personal blurb for your college application, but “Has anything positive happened in your life in the pandemic?” REALLY?

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Sounds like the ED wants to be involved in the hiring process, but has no substantive input, so pulled these wishy-washy pseudo-psych questions off the internet. I’d keep my eyes open during the process to find out if the ED is actually integrated into the work of the organization, or whether they just randomly dump “great ideas” on the staff and expect things to somehow work out.

    4. Lucky Sophia*

      I think it’s like the letter from the other day where the applicants were asked to check “interested/not interested in filing”…for a filing job. In your case, the instruction to “put [job title] in the subject line of the email” is (IMHO) the whole point of the exercise…they are trying to screen out people who don’t read directions and/or don’t follow directions. Secondarily, they may be interested to see if their applicants have at least reasonable literacy skills.
      But mainly I think it’s a “direction-following” screening exercise. I doubt they give a flying fig what you favorite movie was.

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I don’t think it’s about following directions, and I don’t think it’s innocuous. I think it’s an organization that doesn’t know how to hire or even how to identify their must-have skills for the role and test for those, and so they’ve come up with a screening that doesn’t actually relate to the job (but which they probably justify as giving them insight into candidates). If they need a writing sample, ask for one relevant to the job. (And something positive that happened to you in the pandemic is incredibly oblivious and intrusive.)

      1. RagingADHD*

        I thought it was somewhat less intrusive that they asked whether anything good happened since the start of the pandemic, rather than because of it.

        I mean it’s been 14+ months. Most of us can think of one positive, work-appropriate thing that’s happened to us at some point in that timeframe, even entirely unrelated to the pandemic itself.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          It’s an awfully personal question though, and likely to get into all kinds of areas you don’t want to discuss in a job application.

          1. JP*

            “What’s the bright side of this ongoing worldwide tragedy?” is a bad question, no matter what, but it’s also likely that, for a lot of people, the one positive they got from it was working from home / not having a commute / remembering what their priorities are outside of their jobs. So it’s also a sneaky way to weed out people who don’t want to return to The Old Ways.

            1. fhqwhgads*

              “The bright side is I spent zero nights in hospital and am not currently dead.” Good story, right?

    6. Elizabeth West*

      Whaaaaaaaaaat!?! None of this has anything to do with any job I can think of. Orange flag, possible red ahead!

  79. Decima Dewey*

    I tried to post something longish, and apparently I flunked the CaptureThing. Pooh.

    1. GoryDetails*

      Happened to me, too – perhaps the site trying to tell me I need to be more concise?

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      No, it went to spam for some reason and I just fished it out but it’s probably too late for many people to see it. Please feel free to post it next Friday if you’d like to!

  80. Birdie*

    I need to have a talk with my boss about the direction of my position, and I’m not sure to what extent I should express my dissatisfaction with the status quo. Past experiences have taught me not to be open about it when I reach ready-to-move-on levels of unhappy with a job, but if the severity isn’t clear, I’m not sure she’ll be motivated to take action. Not because she doesn’t care, but because she has a high workload of her own and I work very independently, so she isn’t really aware of the specifics of what I do and generally assumes she doesn’t need to worry about it because I have everything under control.

    I’m in a fairly strong position here – my boss is high in the organization, she’s (slowly) working on the paperwork to promote me (this wouldn’t impact the job itself – it’s mostly a reward for good work), and I know she generally thinks highly of me/my work and wouldn’t want to lose me. Thoughts?

    For context: the issue is that the job has fundamentally changed in the last year. I was brought on three years ago to propose, develop, and implement new programs and initiatives for our organization, which I find engaging and fun. My coworker coordinated the logistical details needed to maintain existing programming, but after she retired last summer, my job has essentially become her old, admin-heavy position with a sprinkling of work I actually find interesting. I’m bored out of my mind, and I feel like my competitiveness for other jobs is actively decreasing. It’s possible this is temporary and my position will go back to its original tasks and trajectory when hiring unfreezes and there’s more demand for non-critical strategy work, but I need some kind of commitment that this will revert back to the job I signed on for or I need to go. Either way, I have already started keeping an eye out for other positions.

    1. deja brew*

      No advice, but I feel like I’m in a similar situation. My work is extremely admin heavy, my competitiveness for other jobs is decreasing, etc. My immediate boss thinks highly of me, but I feel like the majority of the team doesn’t see my value and refuses to let me do what I was hired to do. I’m very frustrated, but if I take a step back, it’s not THAT bad?

    2. JP*

      I think that what you just told us is perfectly fine to tell your boss, especially if you’re going to quit if things don’t change. You don’t have much to lose — and I doubt they’re going to say, “Okay, cool, you’re fired,” because you tell them you don’t like that your job has changed.

      The thing is that, if you tell her, “I was originally hired to do X but, since Jennifer retired, I’ve been doing Y. I don’t mind helping out for a while, but I’d really like to get back to doing X full-time,” then the response you get will tell you (either immediately, or in the next few weeks/months) whether your job will ever go back to what it was supposed to be. And then you can make your decisions accordingly.

  81. matcha123*

    A few years ago there was a small thread in the open work thread about midwestern working styles.
    As a midwesterner living overseas, I’ve been curious about how our communication style differs in the workplace from west coasters or east coasters.
    I think I may have asked about this before, but it has been a while and I’d be curious about observations midwestern transplants have. Either on ways to improve communication at work or things to avoid.

    Obviously there’s different people and not everyone in any area is a clone.

  82. deja brew*

    I live in an area that was severely impacted by the pandemic. As a result, I took the first job offer I had. It’s not a bad job: my manager is nice, the team is okay, etc. However, I’m finding that the reality of my day-to-day is not in line with the job I applied to/accepted. Instead of being a project manager, I feel like I’m being used as an administrative assistant. It’s more likely someone will ask me to coordinate a farewell card for a departing colleague than develop a project plan. I have over a decade of experience, won industry awards, and crested global marketing strategies- I am capable of far more than just being a note taker and assistant! I feel like this has gotten worse over time even though I continuously initiate and complete projects that illustrate my skill set (not to mention my expertise was more than welcomed by an external team than my own team members).

    I will say there is an emotional component to this- I don’t feel like my work is often acknowledged and I’m invisible. For example, I created our team’s first ever annual report, developed the team’s KPIs/OKRs, and created way to track the team’s progress to goals for the year. Nothing. Meanwhile, a colleague creates an editorial calendar and has a meeting to review it with our VP.

    How do I address this without coming across like a whiny brat?

    1. ferrina*

      Approach it with a goal orientation. Focus the conversation on what you want to do (i.e., the things listed in the job description) rather than the things that you don’t want to do (i.e., what you are doing now).

      “I’d like to talk about my role here. When I was hired, my understanding that my responsibilities would be X and Y. These are things I’ve built my career on and things I love doing. However, I’ve found that my current responsibilities don’t include these. Can we work to build the role back to tasks X and Y?”

      That said, I’m skeptical anything will change. Based on lack of accountability (i.e., you are setting the team’s KPIs and tracking progress, not management) and the discrepancy between the job posting and the actual job, I would guess this is a company that has no idea how to use someone with your skill set and may not know how to properly value your work. If this is true, the next step is to set up a sample project that highlights what you do and what the value is. But you’ve done that, and it sounds like there has been no reaction. I think that’s the limit of what you can do to change the company. I think the next step is to move to a company that does understand and value what you do.
      Since you now have the luxury of applying while having a job, you can be picky on this next job search and hopefully find a strong fit. In the meantime, I’ve found it helpful for my sanity to look at my low-expectations job as a bizarre asset to help me conserve energy at work so I can put it in to my job search and personal development. Good luck!

    2. PollyQ*

      There’s nothing whiny or bratty about wanting to do the work you were hired to do. I like ferrina’s script, although I share the skepticism that it’ll change anything. Admin assistant and project manager are such very different jobs that the fact that you’re being asked to do AA tasks at all means there’s some fundamental misunderstanding of the role by your employer. I’m pretty sure you’re going to need to brush off the resume and start job-hunting again, sad to say.

    3. Girasol*

      Could this be a misunderstanding of what “project manager” means? I have found that some managers and some companies think of a project manager as the person who covers all the complex project leadership responsibilities that PMI says belong to the project manager: communication, schedule management, risk management, budgeting, quality control, and so on. Other managers imagine that “project manager” means “gal Friday” who makes sure that when the tech lead (who is actually leading the effort) wants to have a meeting, there’s a room reserved, people have been invited, and minutes are sent. So basically, there are people who think that a “project manager” actually is a glorified admin assistant. Could that be your situation?

      1. deja brew*

        Ahh this is PERFECT- yes! This might sound cynical, but I think they needed more of a gal Friday than a PM. However, they couldn’t get the job posting for a project coordinator/admin assistant. So, they job description was text book PM, but the day-to-day reality is glorified admin assistant.

  83. Anon for this here post*

    Has anyone been in a toxic and dysfunctional environment where they have high expectations and nit-pick the details? If you’re a good worker, they pile stuff on you, but micromanage to the point of abuse. Other people do the bare minimum or slack off, but somehow never get into trouble. They don’t train you, expect you to “just know it”, but then yell at you if you don’t.

    1. deja brew*

      Do you have my old job? I was in that exact situation- it led to me having multiple nervous breakdowns and ended up having to leave. I was the third person in two years to have that position- yet, clearly, the people in the role were the problem, not the micromanagers and system that allowed for gaslighting, abuse, and bad behavior.

      1. Anon for this here post*

        Oh, wow! I do believe that I’m in your old job then! I’m sorry that you went through that- I hope you work for a better place!

    2. CheeseWhizzard*

      Are we co-workers?? My solution is to leave. I’m exhausted and resentful and tired of working with and for incompetent people. It’s like I and a couple of my coworkers are carrying the entire department on our backs, and we get punished for it rather than rewarded. I’m done.

  84. NeedANewJob*

    HI, I work for a food bank, we’ve been heavily impacted by COVID and I’m burnt out. I’m starting to look for a new job and would love your thoughts on what to tell people why I’m leaving, if I manage to get an interview, or even in my cover letter. We’ve been so high profile through the pandemic and the need is so great I don’t want people to think I’m abandoning the folks who need help right now.

    1. Juniper*

      What kind of job are you looking for? Are you staying in the non-profit sector or casting a wider net? Depending on the position, you could frame it in terms of career-advancement and then use the past year specifically to put a positive spin on it (instead of making it about burn-out). What were some aspects to your role at the food bank that you can build on? If you managed donations, you can talk about leveraging these skills to serve a wider community. If you handled planning and logistics, you can elaborate on how the experience from the last year has given you valuable insight into x and y processes that you believe could be valuable to their organization.
      Finally, don’t think in terms of it being a potential negative that you’re leaving. What you did was awesome. You did a selfless job in a risky environment, and any potential employer should see that as a huge asset.

    2. ferrina*

      I think you’re thinking too much in to this (I’m guessing because you’re an empathetic person?). But I would be shocked if an interviewer saw you as “abandoning folks in need”. Job changes happen- they know that. If they excluded anyone who provided a social service from searching for a job, there’s a lot of people that would never be able to change fields- teachers, healthcare workers, social workers….

      If they ask in the interview, focus on why you are excited about the new job. When they ask “Why do you want this job?” say “I love this company’s focus on kitten ear adornments! I’ve been designing jewelry as a hobby, and I would love to take it to the next step of kitten clip-ons.” Never say “I need to leave my current job, so I’m looking for….” because that usually reads as Baggage.
      If they specifically ask “Why are you looking to leave your current job?”, it is VERY FAIR to say “While I love working there, it has been hard hit by Covid.” You can usually leave it at that- people know that a lot of places were hit by Covid. In my search I just said “My company was heavily financially impacted by Covid” and no one batted an eye.
      Good luck!

    3. PollyQ*

      First, I wouldn’t address it at all in the cover letter. Use the space for why you’re a great candidate for the job. Second, unless you’re applying for another social services/front-line support job, I don’t think there’s anything at all wrong with saying that you’re burned out. That’s a really understandable reaction to going through a long period of crisis. And third, I suspect your worry about being judged for “abandoning folks” is coming from inside yourself, because that’s not what will be happening. When you quit, the food bank will hire someone else, and they’ll be fine. No one will be abandoned or even harmed.

      Good luck with the job hunt, and please be kind to yourself.

  85. Journaliste?*

    Hi all! I hope this question about a specific career is okay in this thread, if not feel free to delete!

    I’m considering a career shift to journalism and an 8-month certificate program to kickstart this change.
    Would anyone be able to write about their experience in journalism, freelance or staff – any tips, tricks, or advice? Would you recommend this career to someone starting over at 27/28?

    I’ve been considering this for over a year, and I’m trying to find as many perspectives as possible. I’ve been reading a lot about the burnout journalists are facing. I come from academia, where I burned out real hard and fast, so I’m no stranger to “hustle culture” (problematic as it is). Any insight onto how to mitigate burnout feelings?
    I’m in Canada where the situation is a little bit removed from what’s happening in the States (though, yes, newsrooms are shrinking, budgets are way smaller all over the place). The advisors from the certificate program were confident that wages were not the $30k/year I hear is possible (their experience was $45k+ for a staffed job – I’ve checked their placements which are pretty good for the area; that said, I take their words with a grain of salt). I live in a high-cost-of-living area, so that is a concern. But I just need enough to live, I’m not fancy and I’m not in it for money.

    Right now I’m working basic admin and I thought this would be a relaxing break, but I’m still really frustrated by feeling aimless and bored. I’ve tried to motivate myself to start pitching editors as a freelancer, but I have very little internal motivation – I need a community around me to get going. If I try journalism and don’t like it, it seems like a pivot to a communications job is common. Any words would be greatly appreciated!

    1. Unladen European Swallow*

      Is the program able to put you in touch with any of their past participants? Granted, a list from the program directly might be cherry-picked to only include those who’ve had success afterwards, but it might be better than nothing. Also, if you haven’t already, be sure you ask questions about the demographics/profiles of their participants and how their post-certificate outcomes are differentiated by varying backgrounds. Has the certificate been successful in helping with career-changers? If so, can they put you in touch with someone recent who fits this description?

      1. Journaliste?*

        Great questions, thank you. I’ve reached out to a few alumni on LinkedIn who had positive things to say; the certificate is accelerated and meant for people with past work experience which is appealing. I like your questions about different post-certificate outcomes – that will be useful to ask!

    2. Mantis Toboggan, MD*

      Not a journalist but I used to work with a lot of burnt out former journalists at a previous job (I’m in Canada). Are you considering this because you want to be a journalist, or because you want out of admin and don’t know how else to apply your background in academia? I have an English PhD and have made a couple of pivots since then, so I understand the challenge. You say you just need enough to live, but will you always feel this way? Are you willing to forgo the ability to build savings, live in a nicer place, go on vacations? My priorities have shifted a lot in the past few years. Now I am looking at how I can command enough money be able to afford a house someday, retirement, etc. The answer for me was government.

    3. WellRed*

      I’m not clear on what you hope to gain from the certificate? What is it exactly? The best way to get journalism jobs is through published clips. Will the program offer you the opportunity to do that? I work for a B2B publication as managing editor and I make $42K, which sucks. I have twenty years of experience. A job on a small newspaper could very easily pay less with longer hours.

    4. ECHM*

      Maybe try dipping your toe in the water as a freelancer and see if you like it. I can’t speak for Canada, but from my experience in small town journalism, you’re in it for passion rather than for money :)

    5. They Don’t Make Sunday*

      If you live the rest of your life as you live it now, poverty wages in journalism can be ok. I was fine with it before kids, though really what made my low salary doable was my husband’s high salary in another industry (we’re in a very high COL area). I didn’t burn out (I’m constitutionally a workaholic!), but my priorities changed. Once I had my first child, my time became a lot more valuable to me and I’m no longer willing to sell it for cheap, no matter how fulfilling the work. If you’re sure you don’t want kids, this doesn’t matter as much, but you do still need to save for retirement, as an earlier post pointed out. And I agree: be prepared for your feelings about the minimum standard of living you are ok with to evolve as you get older.

  86. Mbarr*

    Guys! GUYS! I’m so stoked! I’ve been at my current company for 2 years. My role(s) here have NOT been a good fit, but I’ve been trying to stick it out for 2 years lest I be a job hopper (plus they pay reeeeally well). I just applied for and got an internal transfer to another department. I’m. So. Stoked. I can’t wait to escape things.

  87. Too much/too little time*

    I am wondering what is a ‘good’ length of time to work at the same company?
    I was with my previous company for 6 years and have been at my current role for 6 years. I am thinking about beginning to look to move on from here. Is 6 years too little of time to stay with one company? Is it too much? At my previous company I started with one title and ended with another, at my current my title has remained the same, but some of my responsibilities have changed.

    1. Warrant Officer Georgiana Breakspear-Goldfinch*

      It’s fine. You’re clearly not a job hopper, and no one reasonable expects anyone to work their entire career at one company.

      I was at my previous employer for 7 years in two positions and I’m hoping to leave my current one after 3 (I moved for this job and I don’t love the location).

    2. Rick T*

      It depends on the industry, I think. I’m in computer sales and we joke about the Carousel, some sales reps move from company to company every few years like me stay at the same company forever.

      In 12 years you have effectively had 4-ish jobs, that’s not job-hopping by any measure.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        Agreed. In IT/Tech, you’ve stayed 100% longer than you’re supposed to in both roles.

    3. lyonite*

      It’s funny, because I just asked a question about this below, from the other side. I agree with everyone else; two six-year stints are definitely not job-hopping. Six two-year stays, on the other hand. . .

  88. Orange Kitty*

    My company is big on education and also letting people learn tasks outside of their department responsibilities, especially if it’s something that can be brought back to enhance the department. My manager arranged for me to learn something I’ve always wanted to learn. It’s in the IT realm, while my department is not. I know the concept and the basics, as it’s something I used to do at a prior company with a similar application, it’s just something more universal vs. an in-house application. The purpose of me learning a little of this particular application here is so the department can be more self-sufficient and I can also be a backup since it’s a small company. I can also take this skill with me to another job.

    So I have a meeting with the person who is supposed to teach me… and holy hell. She unleashed a vent session, which was thankfully short. Not directed at me, but at management for “making” her do this, she “had no choice,” she “spent X money and years on school for this.” Basically was ready to quit on the spot when informed, among other things. Based on what was said, it seems like she is insecure in sharing this type of knowledge with anyone and she’s really put out that she thinks someone is going to learn what she knows without all the years of schooling. I get it, but this is absolutely not on the level of a doctor training a regular person to do surgery. I’m learning only one small task, which is the same task I did previously on a different application. And if I want to go further, I’ll go to school for it. I was so stunned I kind of just said, “Oh, wow. That sucks.” and just moved on.

    Now I’m in this really awkward position of feeling like a huge imposition and not wanting to ask questions, but at the same time feeling like it’s not my problem and she needs to take it up with her manager. I don’t want to do anything that might cause her to resent me even more, but I also really want to say something to my own manager because it was pretty unprofessional the way she unloaded on me (I’m not including all details just in case it’s recognizable). I really just want to get the knowledge and go on my way to use it for my department, so I’m thinking maybe I’ll wait and see how it goes first. Any suggestions?

    1. PX*

      Ooh. I would definitely mention something to your manager (X seemed really upset about being asked to teach my Y, is this something you expected?)

      But for the rest, continue getting whatever knowledge you need from this person, but I’d be super calm about it, and deflect if she tries to complain. If she starts complaining or ranting, my approach would be “Oh, I’m just excited to learn skill X so I can help make things easier for my team!” and if you’re feeling generous “Hopefully this makes life easier for you so we can stop asking you so many questions!”

      1. Orange Kitty*

        I was completely blindsided by the outburst. I’ve worked with her before when I needed her to produce certain things and there was never a hint of anything other than helpfulness and friendliness. It was a really big “yikes!”

    2. PollyQ*

      I would give her a teeny bit of slack, which is to say, I’d pretend the outburst never happened and see how the first session or two go. It may be that she was just having a bad day, for whatever reason. Definitely don’t tiptoe around her or worry about her resentment though, and if she isn’t behaving politely & professionally going forward, then go to your manager and explain the situation.

      1. ferrina*

        I agree with PollyQ, especially since you say she’s always been helpful and friendly before. See how it goes- hopefully this was a one time thing. If she does it again or is refusing to train you or not giving you answers, definitely go to your manager. Not as a “She’s so terrible” but as a “um, she didn’t seem very enthusiastic about the training and I’m wondering if it’s appropriate to continue. During our last session, she did not answer questions and spent 10 minutes saying that she “felt put upon”. I’m getting the impression that this training isn’t welcome for her.” The goal is to not complaining, but to give your manager information that she wouldn’t otherwise have access to.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I can kind of understand where she’s coming from, “shadow IT” (Google will yield a lot of info about this) is a fairly common phenomenon but it’s less typical to explicitly set up a shadow IT function which is essentially what this is. I expect her insecurity comes from seeing this as a “slippery slope” where more and more IT tasks get sent off to other departments, probably leaving IT to support them if they go wrong or if anything happens in the future though.

      IT seems to be quite prone to this sort of thing – it wouldn’t fly if someone just decided “you know what, I’ll sit at one of these desks and start taking customer calls” or whatever.

      If that really is the company direction though I don’t think you’ll get much out of approaching her directly (unless you can address the insecurity somehow), it’s probably something that has to go back through bosses and “force” an attitude adjustment on her.

  89. often trapped under a cat*

    Any advice about talking to someone else’s direct report about something the someone else struggles with at work?

    I have an area of responsibility that means I regularly need to get information from all the senior people in my department. Many of them delegate this work to their direct reports, which is absolutely fine. I don’t care who gives me the information as long as I get it in a timely fashion.

    One of the senior staff is terrible about this. They don’t respond to information requests and also don’t tell their direct report to handle the request. Sometimes they give the information I need to someone else entirely and I discover it weeks later…and it’s often wrong because I haven’t had an opportunity to place the data in context.

    I’m expected to know all the information and its context, so this senior person’s behavior has consequences for my own work, including increasing my workload because I have to continually check up on them.

    Recently we had a department reorg and the senior person now has a new direct report, who is a terrific staffer.

    I am trying to figure out if there is any way for me to speak to the new direct report about this aspects of her supervisor’s work, to give the direct report a head’s up that this is a problem area for the senior staffer? Without making it sound like I’m throwing their boss under the bus. The senior staffer is a good worker who contributes substantially to the department’s bottom line, but I’m not the only person who has to repeatedly chase them down for what probably feels to them like unimportant info, or remind them multiple times that we can’t move ahead with something unless they formally approve it, or similar things.

    And I don’t want the direct report to feel that I am ragging on them–they’ve just stepped into this position, after all, and are not responsible for their boss’s past lapses.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I wonder, what about writing an email to Direct Report and copy Senior Staffer, saying something like:

      “Welcome aboard, Direct Report! Our teams work together on the Otter Cuddling projects a lot. If it’s okay with Senior Staffer, I’d like to propose my team contacts you directly to ask for the data, so that’s one less thing for Senior Staffer to work on. Thanks!” And then proceed to have your team contact Direct Report for the needed data going forward.

      Depending on the politics of your company, you may have to direct the email to Senior Staffer (copying Direct Report) and go through the process of getting them to agree instead.

      Also, does your manager know that Senior Staffer is problematic? If not, I suggest raising that with them, so they can maybe handle it with Senior Staffer’s manager.

      1. often trapped under a cat*

        My manager, who is also Senior Staffer’s manager, does know, and has addressed it a couple of times without success, but I think believes that I–who am Senior Staffer’s peer–should be able to handle it, and feels that I get frustrated too easily (which, maybe, I do, but I’ve been doing this job for a decade and Senior Staffer is the only one I have had this level of problem with for this long)(so my fuse is really short now).

        Direct Report can’t provide the information without Senior Staffer; I think I am also trying to warn Direct Report that they are going to have to press Senior Staffer on this front and cannot rely on Senior Staffer to just do the necessary.

    2. ferrina*

      I’d definitely chat with Senior Staffer first. “Hey, I heard you got a direct report! I know you’re terribly busy, so what if I now go directly to Direct Report when I need info about XYZ? Does that work for you?” I probably wouldn’t CC Direct Report on that because it would likely look presumptuous or even like you’re trying to go around the new hierarchy.

      If you previous worked with Direct, I’d use that- “Direct and I work often on XYZ and we’ve found that works really well for us! Would you be open for trying this new arrangement?”

      If Seniors insist that it should come through them, humor them for a bit, then after a couple more missed deadlines gently reach out to Direct Report saying “hey, sorry to bother, but this is time sensitive. Any chance you have the info for ZYX?”

      You probably don’t need to tell Direct Report that Senior Staffer is bad at responding- they will figure it out very quickly (if they don’t know it already). Especially since you say that they are terrific, hopefully Direct will have a couple tricks up their sleeve.

      Try not to show frustration. As intensely and legitimately frustrating as this is, the emotion has a lot of potential to backfire. Senior may be more reluctant to try new things if they feel “you don’t like them”. If you take it in stride, almost as a game, often other people become more flexible by being around you. Not always, but often. And it cultivates your reputation in a really good way.

      Not showing frustration will also help with your manager. Can simply and neutrally state “fyi, I haven’t been able to get the numbers from Senior yet. I’ve tried calling daily, but still haven’t been able to get them. Is there a different approach you might recommend?”
      By focusing on what you can do differently, it shows you are being proactive and cooperative. Over time, this will underscore that the problem is all on Senior’s end. Your manager may not do anything about it, but at this point the boss has made a strategic decision to allow Senior to be late.

  90. Ada*

    Curious if most companies acknowledge work anniversaries. I had my 10th anniversary at my job recently and no one said a word about it. This is the only office job I’ve ever had, so I don’t have a read on what other companies are like. Is that normal?

    The only acknowledgment I *know* I’m supposed to get after I’ve hit 10 years is an extra week’s worth of vacation days, but even that hasn’t been added to my time bank, so not only was it not acknowledged, now I have the extra task of tracking down someone in HR and pestering them until it’s fixed. Same thing happened at my 5 year anniversary too. I even lost vacation days that time because they took so long to tell me how many vacation days I was actually supposed to have.

    So I’m curious about everyone else’s experiences. Does your job ever celebrate you (birthdays, work anniversaries, etc.)? Is my job unusual in this respect?

    1. Mental Lentil*

      I’ve worked in places where it’s a thing (because we can have cake!) and I’ve worked in places where it’s not a thing (which is fine by me). I think it really varies by the job.

      I’d be more worried that your HR department keeps dropping the ball.

      1. IlikeCake*

        Congratulations on your Anniversary! How sad that your company passed the opportunity to celebrate your work. Personally, I like how my company recognized my first year work anniversary (although I’m not sure if they do it on a regular basis, or just because I brought it up in a meeting with my boss a few days before), but I got a Happy Anniversary email from HR with my boss and grand-boss as well as the CEO cc’d. It felt good to have that milestone recognized and made sure the higher ups remembered.

      2. Ada*

        Yeah, they seem to drop the ball semi-regularly, and it is annoying at times, though the people I’ve dealt with have always been nice. I suspect the department is just a touch too small for the size of the company.

    2. often trapped under a cat*

      We do work anniversaries for 1 year and then the milestones (5 years, 10 years, etc.). They are announced in a monthly email to all staff and people get rewards (from the company, not from coworkers) and a letter from the C-suite folks. Before the pandemic, there were anniversary breakfasts twice a year, too. During the pandemic, we’ve had Zoom appreciations, which have been kind of cool–“come say nice things about your coworker!”–and we’ve done those for wedding and baby showers (which we would have had parties for in years past).

      Birthdays? Not usually. Sometimes an individual department will do something small, but it’s pretty rare.

    3. A Mechanic*

      At my job, we get a one time bonus at certain milestones – I wanna say the first after 5 years? Plus a little something (from the company! From the coworkers only if they organise it themselves). Birthdays are celebrated a little, depending on the person whose birthday it is: Some don’t mention their birthday at all, one colleague paid for breakfast (we’re a small branch, lol). I brought cake and left it in the breakroom and a week or so later, I got a hat (that I really like, its warm and pretty!), which I think this is an effort from my branch manager, not a formal recognition. There’s also a celebration when us apprentices end our apprenticeship, and we did a retirement party for a colleague.

    4. Alex*

      At the top level my employer does recognize work anniversaries, but only for quarter-century milestones (So, first one at 25 years). Otherwise, no, no recognition.

      Some people’s bosses do recognize birthdays, etc., but mine doesn’t.

      1. Ada*

        Wow! 25 years?! Sounds almost like they’re trying to get credit for celebrating anniversaries without actually having to do it!

    5. PollyQ*

      I’ve worked places where we got corporate gifts of one sort or another at major anniversaries, but there was never any kind of celebration or acknowledgment by managers or teammates.

    6. Sparkles McFadden*

      We had work anniversaries and how that was acknowledged varied from department to department. (We usually got a gift card. When I’d be due for more vacation (etc.), I’d send an email to HR in advance to be sure no one dropped the ball.

    7. RedinSC*

      I have all my staff’s anniversaries on my calendar, and their birthdays, so I can at least remember to thank them.

      BUT at no other company was any of that ever acknowledged. I spent 7 years at a university and never heard one peep about a work anniversary and same with the tech companies I worked for.

    8. fhqwhgads*

      The only place I worked that acknowledged anniversaries did so only at the annual meeting, where they were all read off. “Join me in contragulating these folks for 10 years” …list of names. Rinse repeat for other milestone years. They were not acknowledged on the day or week of the actual anniversary.

    9. JelloStapler*

      We have an annual reception where they acknowledge big anniversaries and retirees.

    10. Cookies For Breakfast*

      My workplace doesn’t do anniversary rewards because they believe they send the wrong message, and all rewards should be related to performance.

      But they do share anniversaries on the intranet on a weekly basis and encourage colleagues to send appreciation notes. That’s nice, because they’re usually sincere and it’s ok to respond privately to the sender.

      I think some managers also like to recognise people in team meetings. My boss is big on that and to be quite honest I’m dreading the speech he’ll make (my anniversary is coming up and I’m very awkward with public praise). Last year I even got a small gift, which I loved but was completely uncalled for – pretty sure my then-grandboss paid for it, and it’s sad knowing others outside my department likely don’t get a thing.

  91. ferrina*

    I just got a new job where I will be managing an existing team. I’ve been managing a team of the same size for several years (plus some smaller management experience before that), but every team I’ve managed have either been people I knew before and was promoted to manage, or people that I hired in myself. This will be my first time stepping in to a management role with an existing team that I have no prior history with.

    Any tips or what to say/do (or not say/do) to start everything well?
    I’m generally a very good manager (as per the annual anonymous 360 reviews, peer reviews and multiple boss’ feedback in multiple organizations), this is just a new situation and I’d love to have a gut check.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Suggestions from an employee:

      *Meet with each team member 1:1 to talk about their role, their needs, and share your management style and expectations. What’s working for them? What’s not?
      *Learn about how the team currently works and what relationships are like with other teams/departments.
      *Meet with your peer managers in other teams and departments, to start building those relationships.
      *Meet with your boss’ peers, if it’s acceptable in the culture, to get a feel for how they see work with your team (what’s working, what’s not?)

      1. Mental Lentil*

        All excellent advice. Knowing who does what, how they do it, and what kind of timeframes they work in is key.

      2. ferrina*

        This is great, Analytical Tree Hugger! Thanks! I was thinking of taking each team member for coffee as a get-to-know you during my first week. I knew I wanted to ask about their work and needs, but hadn’t fleshed it out as fully as you did!

  92. Keymaster of Gozer*

    Interesting question that popped up on our internal forum at work: what’s the biggest mismatch/divergence between degree/masters/other subject and actual career you have on your team?

    We’ve got in my lot:
    Meteorology degree – programmer
    Geophysics degree – network tech
    Law degree – software tester
    Virology degree/epidemiology masters – IT Manager

      1. TiffIf*

        My parents had a friend many years ago in rural Arkansas who had a PhD in Mathematics and worked as a bricklayer because it paid more.

        1. Keymaster of Gozer*

          I can well see that. May best friend works as an electrician and I think holds a PhD in Classical Latin literature or similar because yeah, electrician pays better.

          (It’s one of the reasons I jumped ship from virology to IT)

    2. TiffIf*

      Wow I don’t think we have anything that wildly divergent. But some I know of:

      Masters in Creative Writing – Product Manager
      Digital Photography Bachelors – Functional Analyst
      Linguistics Bachelors – software tester/qa analyst
      Mathematics Bachelors – software tester/qa analyst

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        I admit the last one is me! But there were some great ones from other departments like a senior signalman who held a masters in Middle English.

    3. Rick T*

      Submarine independent duty Corpsman – IT systems delivery tech
      Navy nuclear power operator – Senior IT systems delivery tech
      Honors Engineering material science degree – Presales technical sales
      Certified Aircraft welder – Backup systems delivery engineer

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        Wow, that’s definitely different! I’d be chatting nuclear power with that systems tech all day if they worked here :)

        1. Rick T*

          There are two ex-Navy nuclear techs, one surface and one submarine but there is nnot a lot of chatter/discussions now since that was years ago for both of us.

          Navy nuclear plants are designed for small size and flexible operations. Civilian nuclear plants are designed to operate at high power outputs for long periods so the designs are VERY different. We split the same atoms and boil the same water but almost everything else is different.

          Also note: US Navy nuclear operators are all enlisted, the officers (with degrees) are supervisors, they don’t turn valves or close breakers.

          1. Keymaster of Gozer*

            Yup, I started out my research into history of nuclear power with the submarine reactors (it’s a hobby of mine) as they have had a massive impact in the field of commercial reactors. The water cooled type has been a mainstay since the Navy first outright rejected sodium-based types (which, surrounded by water I can see why) and in early days people just scaled the size for commercial purposes.

            Thanks for the clarification :)

    4. PX*

      Was looking up something on LinkedIn today and saw:

      Chemistry PhD –> Marketing Manager in Tech

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My dad had a BA in Physics (which I always found entertaining, but he went to a little liberal arts school that didn’t do anything BUT Bachelor of Arts degrees) and retired from 25 years of owning a B2B office supply store. (He did teach high school math and science for 15 years in between college and owning the store though.)

      1. Mental Lentil*

        My uni gave me the option of doing either a BA or a BS for my science degree. It boiled down to which electives I wanted to take.

        A BA in physics is amusing!

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Yeah, I think that’s the more common way to do it at universities that offer both options for a particular degree, and the distinction really is usually electives. Mine was only available as a BS, which is good because the school’s BA requirement included two years of a foreign language and I was an online student and they didn’t have any foreign languages available online.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            I have a BS in English from a liberal arts school; I always like to say that makes me a professional BS’er. ;)

    6. Jules the 3rd*

      I had an Aerospace Engineer -> Manufacturing Contract Management as my team lead once. He was a rocket scientist (and a good lead).

    7. Warrant Officer Georgiana Breakspear-Goldfinch*

      My degree is in history; I focused on medieval and early modern law. I work as a front-end developer.

      2. fhqwhgads*

        I once worked on a team of software engineers and two of them had degrees in various medieval stuff.

    8. Grim*

      That would be me.

      High school diploma, electronic technician diploma – Senior new product introduction manufacturing engineer.

      1. Rick T*

        I can think of no one better than a repair tech to know the best ways to manufacture products…

    9. Lyudie*

      Not on my team but…

      Master’s in Slavic linguistics > software engineer
      Photography (not sure of actual degree) > software QA

    11. allathian*

      I have a master’s in economics and business administration but it’s not an MBA. I work as a translator.

    12. HereKittyKitty*

      I work in marketing and I have literally only met one person in marketing that actually went to school for marketing… in 4 years. I’ve met a ton of music majors, a few theater majors, political science majors, a history major, and of course English and creative writing majors (I have the MFA in CW lol). I met someone yesterday that has a BFA but is a coding and robotics teacher in middle school.

    14. Cedrus Libani*

      I know a software engineer with a MD. Got an undergrad degree in CS, worked for a couple years, had a quarter-life crisis, went to med school, decided by the end of his clinical rotations that he’d made a very big mistake, and then went back into software. I also know a software engineer with a degree in musical performance (which didn’t pay the bills) and a marketing director with a degree in sports science (was a personal trainer, then got arthritis and became a suit).

      1. Software Dev*

        (That’s me btw. I think everyone else on my team had a normal skill progression)

    17. Mimmy*

      Probably too late in the weekend to see my reply but I wanted to add my reply:

      Masters in Social Work … Keyboarding (typing/basic computer) instructor!

      ^^ That is me, but I am hoping to change that soon.

  93. Roja*

    I finally reached a huge professional milestone this week and I’m so happy. It’s a professional milestone, but it’s been wrapped up in so much personal history and baggage that it’s a true personal milestone as well. It’s not only work that will be satisfying to do in and of itself, but it will also set me up well for professional success over the next few decades. I never thought I could do it… but I DID IT!

  94. TiredOfEntitledFaculty*

    Hi! I’ve been lurking on here for a while but it’s my first time commenting.
    I work at a University in an administrative faculty support role. I have a PhD in the sciences but when I moved into administration I realized it plays to my strengths considerably more. I love (and am good at) figuring out systems and setting up procedures that help those that hate admin to get their stuff done. I enjoy both the figuring out of a complex process and the figuring out of what trumps people and removing those obstacles for them.
    However (you knew it was coming), I am getting more and more frustrated at working with entitled faculty members (#notallfaculty, but still). They don’t understand why the rules apply to them, get mad at me for something that is required by the systems we work with, have a hard time following instructions (seriously, my toddler can follow three consecutive instructions, these people can’t), never ever meet a deadline, and to top it all off, take all that I do for granted.
    I went from the PhD to a postdoc and then to this admin position. Academic dysfunction is all I know in a work context. I have no idea what I am qualified to do elsewhere and what I would enjoy. I feel like the tech environment could be a good fit as long as I don’t have to be doing the tech. Non-profit work sounds interesting too but, from what I read on here, seems to be a field full of its own dysfunctions. I currently get decent pay, excellent benefits and a luxury commute. I also have terrible work-life balance, a generous dose of work related anxiety, and limited opportunities for advancement (“merit pay” for excellent employees has been 2.25% to 2.5% for the past 3 years).
    So, my questions – What kind of jobs in a corporate setting does this sound like? In my lofty aspirations I think I would enjoy the work of being a small company’s COO. But what do COOs do before they become COOs? Is there a career path in this or you just make it up as you go along? Should I just stop whining, appreciate what I currently have and let go of the rest?
    Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated, thank you!

    1. Anon for this one*

      Please let me know what you end up doing because I am very much in the same boat! I don’t have my PhD (I do have a master’s). I also enjoy process control/improvement and customer service. However, I do hate dealing with entitled faculty.

      I have heard about (but I don’t know much about it) Sigma 6. You may want to look into it that. If you are up for moving check out the University of Alabama jobsite. (Sorry if this is not allowed!) There is a job that you may be qualified for and interested in.

      1. RedinSC*

        6 Sigma and LEAN are two project management systems, they both have their own certification process. Another area that uses them are industrial engineering.

        BUt agreed that Office Manager, program manager and project manager positions could all be good intermediary steps.

    2. Wool Princess*

      Hmm, maybe office managers/operations managers roles would be a good intermediary step between admin and COO.

      Have you thought at all about academic tech transfer? The offices that manage the university’s patents can be good for folks trying to pivot from the bench to business. It’s also a good place to be on the lookout for new/interesting startups forming. Your science PhD and organizational skills would serve you really well in that type of role, if it’s of interest to you. You *do* still have to deal with entitled faculty but it’s a bit more removed than an admin role.

    3. Tabby Baltimore*

      You might looking up “project management” and “program management” on Wikipedia for ideas. You can also try clicking around at the Project Management Institute site (pmi.org) site to read its descriptions of the training it offers. Regular AAM commenters include several project and program managers, so after you’ve done some checking, you might consider coming back next to next Friday’s Open Thread and direct any question or questions about these career fields to them. Best of luck.

    4. Robin Ellacott*

      I’m afraid I don’t know much about academia, but I am a COO in a small company and my trajectory was CEO’s exec assistant combined with writing and analytical tasks > manager of writing and reports staff > operations manager of our biggest program > COO. This all took 13 years though!

      I suspect in small companies institutional knowledge is probably a big factor in who they choose to do the big picture jobs. That said, your skill set sounds like you could do a job like mine very well.

  95. Analytical Tree Hugger*

    Career advice needed: When do I give up on trying to find another job in my field/role? And what field or role should I go into instead?

    I was in one job in my field (sustainability/conservation, focus on agriculture) for the last 7 years; I left last year due to increasing toxicity. Over the past 2+ years, I’ve applied to about 200 jobs, with maybe 10 interviews. Corporate sustainability is intriguing, but I can’t even get interviews. I can’t even give away my time; I’ve been trying to volunteer via Catchafire and get rejected there as well.

    I *know* my resume/cover letter are terrible. I’ve tried applying AAM’s guidance and they’re better, but still terrible. So, at what point do I just give up and try for a different field? What sort of work could I do?

    My general skills/role:
    *Data analysis
    Excel only; I don’t know SQL, Tableau, etc. Not sure I’d be able to learn to any marketable level

    *Data management
    Building stuff in Access, so no real database experience

    *Metrics and KPI development
    At my last job, I built the data and metrics systems from the ground up, but it was a small place

    *Report writing
    Managers have consistently told me I’m a strong writer, but one interview evaluation rated me as average based on my responses to their survey. They didn’t ask for a writing sample

    1. irene adler*

      Quality Assurance.

      Visit ASQ.org for ideas.

      Auditing: here you document the area audited is complying with the rules set out for it. You’ll need to know how to write a report that would outline the strengths/areas to improve that would be read by management. Auditing needs basic Excel skills (math, charts, some graphs), clear writing skills, planning (fair amount of scheduling of audits goes on in auditing). If you can design a metrics system, all the better. You would track the improvements over time of the areas audited.

      Quality assurance: lots of documents to write/update, and KPIs to create & track.
      Regulatory affairs: lots of writing and analyzing. Always new regulations being created that a company needs to know how to implement properly. That requires understanding a lot of regulatory stuff. Then translating it into something folks can understand- and follow.

      Don’t put any faith into a single interview evaluation. For the one you cited: you don’t know what criteria were used to pass judgment on the responses. Managers find your writing strong; they see the value in it. The best auditors write clear, easy to follow reports that give an accurate picture as to what’s going on within the company (or area audited).

      I was told after an interview that I was not serious about Quality. Gee, think so? I’ve only been working in it for 30 years. And hold two degrees plus additional certifications in Quality. And volunteer my time in ASQ (section secretary for 3.5 years now. Also section programs chair. ). Bah!

    2. PollyQ*

      If your resume & cover letters aren’t good, changing fields isn’t going to help you. Do you know anyone who’s a hiring manager whose judgment you trust and who might work with you on them? Career counselors are kind of a crap shoot, quality-wise, but it might be worth tossing the dice and working with one.

      1. Roja*

        Agreed. It seems to me the solution is to make the resume and cover letter good, not to switch fields where you’ll still have issues with your resumes and cover letters. Is there networking events you can go to, Analytical Tree Hugger, either local or conferences or whatnot? Sounds like you need some old-fashioned “word of mouth” connections.

  96. lyonite*

    I’m going to be part of interviewing a candidate next week, and I’m wondering how to approach some of the aspects of his resume. He was at one job for over 20 years, but since then has had 8 jobs in 10 years, including being less than two years at his current position. Some of the stays are as short as two months (possibly a short-term contract? but not mentioned as such on his resume), and I know at least one ended at the time when the company he was at was acquired and everyone there was laid off. Do you guys have any suggestions for addressing this, without making it some sort of accusation? I’d like to give him a chance to explain, but I’m also wary if he’s someone with unreasonable expectations, or has trouble getting along with people, since I’ll be working with him regularly (though I’m not the hiring manager).

    1. PX*

      I know some people hate it, but this is where asking a candidate to walk you through their CV can be quite helpful. As someone who is currently interviewing, its quite normal for people to start by asking me to walk them through the roles I’ve had (although I have much less than 8) – but its a normal enough question that you should ask it and see what he says. And then, as Alison always says, the trick is to dig into his answers and see if anything comes out that sounds like it could be an issue.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      That almost describes my resume. One company for 13 years, then lots of 1-4 year positions. Sometimes they didn’t win the follow-on contract, sometimes the company folded, etc. It happens.

      1990 was a different era – there were plenty of companies that hired for the long haul, invested in their employees, etc. And if you landed a good gig, the comfort factor of staying there is a strong pull.

      But then when you’re out, nothing quite feels the same. Or there are other things going on in your life when you hit 40 that upend everything – divorce, sudden illness, death of a parent, generic mid-life crisis, etc.

      You can ask the questions neutrally. “You’ve had a number of shorter length jobs, and one long-term employer. Tell me about the differences between those situations, what you liked, what you didn’t like.”

    3. SomebodyElse*

      “Looking through your history I see that you were with Acme Corp for quite a long time and since leaving you had some shorter durations. Can you tell me a little more about that?”

    4. Hunnybee*

      Was he a contractor? That would be common for contractors.

      And, if so, some strengths as a contractor are that they have experience ramping up and becoming successful at various companies and industries and have learned various ways of work.

      If instead these were FTE roles, you might have some concerns…..I’ve seen both. I have actually had stellar employees that came from a background of consulting! But I’ve also had fte employees whose full time jobs didn’t last longer than a typical contract would, and I think that there is a difference in expectation.

    5. WellRed*

      I’m curious about why he left the job of 20 years. Was he laid off? Did he leave for a new opportunity? Because to me this looks like someone who after being a one place for so long is having trouble finding a new fit, especially since he’s older.

  97. Burned out from interviews.*

    I’m in a toxic job, which I only identified after I started. I’ve been here 9 months and my company (>250) has had a 50% attrition rate of people leaving.

    So I was looking before this job (which I feel was a bait and switch) and I have been looking this entire time. In my industry, the time commitment is overwhelming; not only are there series of interviews that seem to be ongoing, but they require spec projects and lengthy whiteboarding sessions. One company that I have been interviewing with just wrapped up, and I’ve been meeting with them at least once a week since March. I haven’t heard *a word* since my last 2.5 hour whiteboarding session with them.

    I’m exhausted. I’m trying to work these various interviews in to my already busy schedule at the toxic company with the awful boss, and while I’ve devised some ways to do it (and I spend late nights making sure that my deliverables at my job are shining and great) the ongoing and unreasonable demands on my time and all of these free projects and tests have just left me where I am today; angry, frustrated, dejected and feeling stuck. I think I might throw a pillow and scream next time someone asks me to interview. I really feel that a significant amount of time in my life has been wasted by the overwhelming demands of these companies. And I am interviewing with more than one at a time.

    Yet….I am aware that my position, no matter how I work to do my best, has a glowing exit sign on the door, and I want that exit to be on my own terms. Another colleague put in his notice today which makes me feel stuck and defeated and spun out. And….resentful. Like the recent three month company, they haven’t been considerate about my time at all.

    How in the world do you keep your spirits up and feel excited about new opportunities in the face of ongoing interviews and rejection? I’m sure that my exhaustion (and desperation) is also coming through even though I obviously put on a smile and try to be positive in every interview. I’m only sharing my frustration with you here, friends. But…..anyone else out there experiencing this?

    1. Violet*

      I’m a bit jealous! You’re getting interviews! That means you’re skilled and applying for the right positions.

      But the exhaustion. Ugh. I think it’s toxic job that exacerbates this. Take breaks on the weekend. Enjoy the weather. I’m terrible, but once I realized this search was going to be months and not weeks, I started going on nature hikes, taking breaks from applying, etc. I told the interviewer today I need to take my vacation days, when asking what their timeline was. I’ve been saving vacation days so I don’t have to pay them out at the end, but . . . there isn’t a end in sight at this time. And I need a vacation. The interviewer said to take them in June, lol. But I don’t see that as a promise.

      I take really good care of myself too. Excellent home-cooked organic food. Talking with friends and people who I like. And I’m going to get out of Dodge City in a few weeks with my vacation days. I deserve it even though I don’t have new job in hand yet. I thought the OK Corral would have collapsed upon itself by now, but nope.

      Also, I stopped applying as widely so I could be genuinely excited by the opportunities that really liked. But the rejection is still grueling.

      But summer is almost here! Can you enjoy that a bit on the weekends?

  98. Violet*

    You guys on the Friday weekend posts rock. Seriously.

    So with your help (which hopefully I’ll detail one day in a ‘good news’ post) I had a phone/Zoom screen today that I think went really well. :-)

    I did read some terrible Glassdoor reviews about the CEO and the way they are holding the company back. Sigh. I’m am trying to leave a toxic situation, not get back into one. But there haven’t been many other phone screens for me, you know? I’m still applying to other places, don’t worry about that. Just wondering how picky I should be at this point. I really want out of my current work situation.

    I am not giving all the details on the reviews but having read my own company’s Glassdoor reviews, these are better but not by much. And my company’s reviews are dead ass the truth, I know it after being here for five years.

    1. PollyQ*

      How closely would you be working with the CEO? If there are a bunch of layers of management between you, it might not affect your day-to-day job that much, although if the CEO is really screwing up, it could affect whether the company will be in business. If the job is significantly closer to the CEO, then I’d take the Glassdoor warnings more to heart.

      1. Violet*

        I am not sure yet. I work in a toxic workplace where the ED rules through the managers so their wishes and micromanaging are everywhere even though I haven’t laid eyes on this person probably in 18 months.

        That may not be the case here, though. I’m putting it out of my mind unless I move to the next stage.

    2. HereKittyKitty*

      Glassdoor reviews are so hard to sus out. For example industries can be really large and workers that are in the customer service call centers and workers in, say, programming can have very different experiences so the 100s of reviews from the call center folks may not be relevant to what I will experience working in IT. I would consider seeing if you can find reviews from people that are more likely to be in your circle and see what they say.

      Aside from that, how close may you be with the CEO? Are you likely to be working with them directly? That’s also worth considering. On the flip side I’ve worked from companies that have immaculate Glassdoor reviews that ended up being awful. So I wouldn’t put too much weight into it… just trust your gut.

      1. Violet*

        Thanks for telling me to go with my gut. If I move forward, I will. This job seeking has been more intuitive and about luck and timing than I ever imagined!

      2. Rufus the 26 pound orange tabby*

        And…Violet, if you were interviewing with my company (this situation sounds hauntingly familiar) I would say that as much as I would welcome you as a colleague, I would feel I was doing you a disservice I didn’t encourage you to thoughtfully consider the reviews that — as at your company — are DEAD ON. You may not work with the CEO, but the level of toxic culture can affect every area of your work experience.

        ……..I took my current job having similarly disregarded Glassdoor comments about the CEO at my company. And I’ve been spending all of my personal time desperately looking for a different job since then.

    3. Rufus the 26 pound orange tabby*

      Please take these comments to heart. I work in one of these companies where we are ruled by the heavy hand of fear-based management, and colleagues are trying to add their honest reviews to Glassdoor so that others will not be led into a terrible situation. We’ve actually had people leave after just a few months because it is so bad.

      Of course, HR adds these glowing reviews to offset the Glassdoor score, but if you read the reviews you can really tell the difference.

      Now is the time to make the decision, not after you’ve been in a severely toxic job. I, personally, knew after my first month at my job that I had made a dreadful mistake and when I reached out to the other companies I turned down I just put myself in an embarrassing position.

      So, my impassioned plea is to really take this stuff SERIOUSLY.

      1. Violet*

        Thanks, Rufus. It would be out of the frying pan and into the fire, wouldn’t it?

        But the fire might be better than this slow burn, really. But I hear you, I hear you.

  99. A Mechanic*

    Hi everybody, I hope updates are okay in here :D
    Y’all might remember me from last week’s open thread (asshat co-apprentice from another branch spouting bullshit comments and also… lowkey v rightwing stuff) and I can happily update y’all that I talked to someone about the asshat! The guy in charge of the apprenticeship program (AP) and I talked half an hour on the phone this week – not entirely about Asshat, but a lot about him. Apparently, this is not the first time his behaviour has been flagged as off, but surprise surprise (sorry, I’m getting my sarcasm all over this)… his behaviour was okay all through probation. AP would *love* to get something on him that’s enough to fire him, but so far it’s bust (apprentices are VERY hard to fire after probation!), although it sounds like Asshat is being watched with eagle eyes, yay! I said I’d reach out to a classmate or two who might’ve heard the same/other comments that were not okay, to see if they’d be willing to talk to AP or have their name connected to this (AP promised several times that in any and all conversations with Asshat, there will be NO names mentioned), and also that I’d keep AP up to date if/when Asshat drops other comments. We’ll be in school again soon (probably in person again, the numbers are doooown!!) so we’ll see what he’s got to say then. (Is anyone going to be surprised to hear that he tried to talk me into sharing my homework with him while we did school online…?)

    1. RedinSC*

      Thanks for the update! I was actually wondering what you decided to do and how it turned out.

      So, on going saga, I guess. Good luck.

  100. CMY K-Cups*

    I’m getting ready to refresh my resume but I’ve been in the same company for 14 years. I was in one position for 13 years and recently just got promoted to another at the end of 2020.

    How do I list work experiance with 1 long term postion at one company? Do I even list my job before this (a cashier from nearly 15 years ago)?

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      Focus on successes and achievements – “Implemented X tool”, “Managed team of Y people”, “Won Chocolate Taster of the Year in 2015, out of pool of 100 tasters”. Try to show increases in responsibility and skills.

      Only list cashier if it’s relevant – something like new job works with public and you haven’t done that in the last 14 years.

    2. SomebodyElse*

      I’d stick with the current company and break it into the roles that you’ve had there. Be sure to highlight things like accomplishments, increasing responsibility, and special projects. Your previous role should probably have the most information in it.

      Acme Corp 14 years ago – Present
      Paper Clip Manager 1yr ago – Present Promoted from Paperclip Assoc
      Accomplishment 1
      Accomp… 2
      Key Metric 1

      Paperclip Assoc 14 yr ago to 1 yr ago
      Accomplishment 1
      Accomp… 2
      Key Metric 1
      Special Project 1
      Key Metric 2
      Accomplishment 3

  101. Queen Anon*

    Quick question for any lawyers. (I understand that each state has its own laws but a really general answer is all I need right now, and I understand that no one is giving me legal advice.)

    If someone were to be assaulted leaving work alone late at night (say midnight) to walk to the parking garage, would the workplace have any liability at all? This is a hypothetical since it hasn’t happened but I’m beginning to wonder because I have colleagues who are could be put in this position. (They each work alone on their shift, which is in an office in the center of the city – which saw some violence last year – and have to leave alone. They can’t change shifts and there aren’t any escorts available.)

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      Now for the ultimate lawyerly answer — it depends. If the walk and the parking garage are both on the employer’s premises, the employer could have some liability to take reasonable steps (lighting or cameras for example) to protect against specifically known risks. However, once the person leaves the employer’s premises, the employer’s obligation goes way, way down and in many or most instances will be nonexistent.

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        That said, it is common for employers to make accommodations to provide escorts or closer parking etc when the situation is such that a reasonable person might feel unsafe, because that is what decent employers do.

    2. KAZ2Y5*

      This isn’t a legal answer, but can they ask to have preferred parking (as close to the building as possible)? I work night shift (hospital) and it is common for hospitals to have closer parking for their night shift workers.

    3. The teapots are on fire*

      Froedert Hospital in Milwaukee has been sued over this–check the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinal for a pretty good series on the topic.

  102. IlikeCake*

    I’m wondering if I’m being paranoid, or I’m being set up to fail at work. I work at a consulting firm, consulting on a very specific set of issues, and a client has a mix-service contract, requiring my services and other types, for which my company also has experts, however, I’m being tasked with those too, because my boss refuses to split the bill with the other team. The client expects (and it’s paying) for the same quality of work in both services, however despite trying my best, turning to my expert coworkers and even paying for some online trainings on the issue, my performance on these tasks are not at that level yet. I have pointed this to my boss, asked for help and was told they were going to work on it, without concrete steps, so I figured no help is coming; I’ve done it twice with the same answer, but I’m evaluated on client retention and satisfaction, and I recently had a call with them that left me feeling like they’re not that happy with these part of the project.
    I don’t know what to do, do I keep raising the issue with my boss? Do I go higher with the issue? May boss and I have a strictly professional and somewhat cold relationship, and the paranoid part of my brain thinks she might be setting me up to fail, but I have no evidence of this…

    1. Rick T*

      Keeping 100% may get the boss a bonus in the future where 50% would have them below the target.

      Speak to your Grand-boss, the company may loose 100% of the future revenue from this client because your boss doesn’t want to share 50% with another team.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Some consulting firms do this. Every partner or business line manager has a perverse incentive to empire-build. It’s not good for their customers, and it’s not good for their employees either.

      Can you ask your coworkers who’ve been there longer if this is the modus operandi for the company, or if your boss has gone rogue?

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Have you met with your boss to tell them about the client phone call? I don’t know if your boss is setting you personally up to fail, but she is not handling this situation in a way that will make it successful and either way it may have bad fallout for you. It sounds like the client feedback may be what you need to tell her, “The client can tell I’m not as qualified to supply this service as someone from X team, they’re unhappy and I think they may drop the contract if we don’t include someone from X team ASAP.”

      If she still doesn’t do anything, I would take it to GrandBoss because it’s likely the client will fire your company *and* your boss will say it’s because you couldn’t do the job (which is partly true but Not Your Fault that she wouldn’t bring in the experts when you asked several times). Make it clear to GrandBoss now that your expertise is on the one type of service and because you’re not an expert in the other type (as X team would be), this contract needs support from X team in order to be successful.

      Last comment – do you have any of these concerns that you raised with your boss in writing? If so, keep those. If not, write up those concerns now and indicate when you had conversations with your boss about this, what you asked for and what your boss said and did in response.

  103. Hello, it's me again*

    Just before covid hit, I interviewed for this position and was not selected. The job was a lateral move to a huge company, and I was excited because it seemed a good career move, payed well, and the location would have been better place for me for reasons (but not generally an attractive one). The whole process took months, I was flown there, etc, so quite stressful (having a possible international move hanging over your head, not fun). I knew I was not the perfect candidate, but for reference this job requires a specific PhD + industry experience, so not hundreds of candidates by any means. A really similar role has been advertised, the group is expanding. I know that if I apply I should go back with ‘I have done this and that in the meanwhile!’ – but, well, Covid had a major impact on this industry and my employer is small, so not a lot of opportunities there (I can say a little bit on how I am working on stuff that is more interesting to them, but nothing too impactful). I also not doing too well mentally – with the whole pandemic situation getting better, the old ‘what do you want to do with your life’ issue is coming back and … It’s not good. I know I ‘should’ apply to this thing, but I am terrified by the interviewing process. I have been with my employer 4 years, no significant issues but not too happy either. Two points here: any advice on interviewing for a second time for the same job, and, well, anyone else having a similar reaction to, the word is opening but I don’t know where I should go.

    1. Emma2*

      Just wanted to commiserate – it is hard and COVID in some ways paused some things that now feel more urgent.
      It sounds like you were a competitive candidate last time if they flew you out to meet you. Unless you have specific information to suggest otherwise, you might have been a “near miss” who they would be happy to see back in the candidate pool. If you think you want the role, I would suggest you just apply and mention the new tasks in you cover letter.
      If your stress is about explaining what you did during COVID, I wouldn’t worry too much, I think excessive expectations about people accomplishing new things during the pandemic could be a red flag. I would just put a positive spin on it if asked “I felt fortunate to retain my role despite how COVID affected our industry. I have been taking on X and Y new tasks, which I am enjoying. Most of our team has also been pitching in to cover absences and reduced hours so it has been a busy year, but we have made it through.”

  104. HereKittyKitty*

    Hoping to be able to share more Friday good news soon as an update to my previous Friday good news. After 6mo with my contract position that allowed me to take some time off, figure out my mental health (I finally was diagnosed with ADHD and it has seriously changed my life) and visit my sister after two years, I am getting an offer today for a new full time position. (I say getting because the recruiter said she was calling me today with great news and I figure the great news isn’t that I’m not being hired lol)

    I was laid off last August and it has taken until now to find a full time job… it’s been a journey. If anybody else is looking for job I have been noticing a trend that some recruiters have also confirmed, hiring is picking up. Many companies were waiting for their first quarter to come in and have now opened up more hiring. In the past 3 weeks I have been bombarded with recruiters so I think things are getting better. Though I don’t have the numbers confirmed yet, this new job would pay approximately $30,000 more than my old job and I’ll finally be able to climb out of some debt. Light at the end of the tunnel.

      1. HereKittyKitty*

        Thank you! I got the offer letter in hand and I’m spending the weekend to look over it, but it is exactly a $30,000 pay bump for me and I could cry. And it’s for something related to the environment and sustainability which makes me very happy.

        I honestly can’t believe I’ve gone from my first job making 38k, to my second job making 55k and now I’m at 85k. Like I never thought I’d make more than 50k if I were lucky and now I can maybe help my parents retire and my dad’s medical bills this summer. I am just literally in shock.

  105. Alex*

    I’m really frustrated with my organization’s supposed “anti-racism” goals and their work towards those goals.

    I work in an extremely white industry. Everyone knows that it is a white industry–no one denies it. And upper management has made “anti-racism” an explicit goal.

    Great, right? Except…all of the work towards the goal feels like box-ticking rather than actually useful. We had an “anti-racism” training, which consisted of an outside consultant telling us racism existed and is systemic. OK. Tell us something we don’t know?

    I’ve been on the Diversity and Equity committee, which is full of well-intentioned people with no power to make any decisions. Upper management “doesn’t have time” to be on the committee and feels that having the committee and allowing it to meet on company time checks the box of doing something about racism. There are alerts for events discussing equity and racism issues, but they don’t really have much to do with the actual contributions my organization makes to white supremacy. We’ve tried bringing up the ways that procedures and standard practices in hiring at our organization contribute to the lack of diversity, but we’re always met with “well we have to do it that way because XYZ reasons.”

    Does anyone have success stories on changing this dynamic in their organization? I’m so frustrated that I’ve pretty much quit being on the committee, but that is also probably not really helpful. In case it matters, I’m a white, cisgender, queer woman.

    1. Spearmint*

      I don’t have personal experience with this, but I recently listened to a podcast interview of a sociologist named Frank Dobbin who has studied this issue, and his read of the literature on this is that for DE&I programs to be successful, you really need management to be invested in it and taking personal responsibility for pragmatically addressing the issue, as they would for other issues the business faces. Trainings and statements are ineffective and mostly serve as box checking.

      Unfortunately it sounds like you company’s senior management isn’t really that invested in the issue even if they favor more diversity in theory. Unless you can convince senior management to get more involved and invested, I’m not sure if there’s much you can do.

      1. Alex*

        Thanks for your response. Can you tell me the name of the podcast? I’d be interested in listening to it.

    2. Eden*

      > telling us racism existed and is systemic. OK. Tell us something we don’t know?

      Honestly, lots of people don’t know this. Like, for real, not in a hateful way but a naive privileged way. I don’t know if the training was good or convincing to those people, but I’ve had to learn that what’s obvious to me… really isn’t to others.

  106. RR*

    So – I may have finally found a job. Big may. But it isn’t the greatest – I’m getting call center vibes which makes me nervous. I’ve never done that kind of work before. But I don’t know anybody (no network) so my research is limited. But I’ve been at my toxic job so long, I think I might jump anyway. I mean, worst that could happen is I get fired, right? So, I get fired. Not good, but not the end of the world. Or at least that’s what I’m telling myself. In the meantime, if I do get the job, is there a good way I can start preparing myself?

    Also, I’m very nervous about telling my current job. In a very real way, I’m screwing them, and while they haven’t been paragons this past year, I kept my job. But I just feel like I can’t with them anymore – the environment is terrible, nothing functions well, everybody seems to think it is ok to dump things on me all the time, people aren’t nice (to say the least) and looking at jobs that are posted online (and I know, grain of salt etc, but still), I feel like I could be doing strictly data entry for what I make now (I have lousy benefits too). But I still would like to resign with a modicum of pretending to preserve the relationship. Any chance? I’m wildly stressed – not sure if the new job sounds more stressful or staying at the old one.

    1. Hiding from my Boss*

      What kind of industry are you moving to? What kinds of callers/questions are you likely to get? Our industry uses call centers and at our company, some people have actually moved up eventually and forged good careers at the company over time.

      1. RR*

        Professional services customer service support for businesses. Review online of that support are not great, to say the least. People did say movement is possible, but I always take that with a fairly large amount of skeptiscism. I was expecting to hear back by end of day today, so since I haven’t, maybe this is a non-issue, unfortunately.

    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      Leaving a company should not destroy the relationship if you are professional and don’t bad mouth the company on the way out. Give notice, help transition if possible and document your work processes. Thank people for what you can honestly thank them for and tell folks you will miss them. If you really want to leave on good terms offer to take the occasional question (where is the TPS report?) after you leave. Good luck!

      1. RR*

        Thank you. I’m dreading it, to say the least, while still hoping that I have the experience if that makes sense. I’m happy to take the occasional question, and have no intention of bad mouthing anyone (no point for me), but it won’t be a fun experience. I’ve had literal nightmares about it. I think there hasn’t been one question about bad workplaces that I’ve read about in AAM where I haven’t thought to myself that my workplace has that issue. I know nobody is irreplacable, but I don’t think they’re going to find somebody so readily to do what I do at the pay they pay me. Which is really their problem.

  107. Deborah*

    I’m interviewing for a position to replace the person currently occupying it. I know that this person is leaving but I don’t know why. I have two questions: Is it appropriate to ask this person why she is leaving? What is the best way to phase the question during the interview?

    1. irene adler*

      If you are allowed to talk to the person you’ll be replacing directly, then yes, ask her directly why she’s leaving the position. Perfectly normal question to ask. Early on in the interview, ask, “why are you leaving this job?”

      Also find out if this person is leaving the company or moving to another job within the company: “So you are leaving the company as well?”. Then, “can you tell me why you are leaving this company?” (if she doesn’t already go into this).

      You can even ask for some tips for success in this position.

    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      You can ask, but don’t probe. If they are leaving on good terms or moving to another job in the organization they interviewer will openly state that. If they are vague or avoid answering, then they are likely not leaving on good terms and you should let it go. As for how to ask, I would be direct. Something like, “I understand someone is currently in this position, can you share why they are leaving?” or “Can you tell me how this position is becoming open?”

  108. OTGW*

    I have a second interview coming up for a public library job. I’ve never had second interviews and don’t really know what to expect. I’m a fresh college grad though I have a lot of experience in libraries (just a different position than the one I’m interviewing for). I haven’t been asked to bring anything so I’m assuming it’s just questions. But is it just more in-depth questions?

    Thanks for any help/advice!!

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      It’s hard to say – second interview can vary a lot by organization. They could do any or all of the following:
      More of the same kinds of questions as the first interview.
      Probing any perceived weak spots.
      Showing you more of what they do, introducing you to potential peer-level employees so they get a feel for your personality.

      Good luck!

    2. Kimmy Schmidt*

      In my organization (an academic library), the second round questions tend to be more behavioral “tell me about a time” when questions. They also dig into more specifics on software, tools, or programming experience.

    3. HR Exec Popping In*

      It depends what the first interview included. If the first one was more about your qualification, then the second will likely be behavioral questions – a lot of “tell me about a time when you…” If you have already had that type of interview you might be having another similar behavioral interview just with someone else. You might also have an interview where they really probe into a few specific areas that they are interested. This could be more technical in nature. Good luck.

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      The ones I have given are usually just more in depth. For us, we give second interviews to our top 3 to 4 candidates. If we want a presentation or something additional, we’ll let you know ahead of time. Usually, the second interview is, as others have said, more about fit than about qualifications. It’s also a good time for you, the candidate to ask more in-depth questions.

  109. Government Thank You Notes?*

    I just had a panel interview for a county government job where they ask every job candidate the same questions and it’s timed. You can maybe ask 1-2 questions at the end if there’s time. Should I write a thank you note? Or is it not really done in this situation? Thanks!

    1. Mental Lentil*

      I think a thank you note is appropriate for every job interview. If they interviewed ten people in this manner and you’re the only one to send a thank you note, that is a plus in your favor.

  110. Helenteds*

    I know that typically cover letters are supposed to be ~1 page, but what do you do when you are a college sophomore with no work history, just some volunteer experience, applying for a summer internship? There isn’t really enough material to talk about to devote an entire page to, I ended up submitting a cover letter that was less that 150 words for one that I just applied to. I did get an interview, no word yet on whether I have been selected, but I have no idea how strong a candidate I am. Under the circumstances, is a short cover letter okay or will it count against me?

    1. Mental Lentil*

      What were the requirements for the internship? What things have you done in your life that you could in some way connect to those requirements that wouldn’t necessarily be on your resume?

      For example, if the internship requires “excellent communication skills” and you were on the debate team for four years in high school, or on the school paper or something similar, you could point out how you used those experiences to hone your communication skills.

      I don’t think someone who is looking at a college sophomore for an internship would expect a full-page cover letter, though. They realize you are young and don’t have a lot of experience, and hopefully they have realistic expectations.

      Good luck! Please update us and let us know how it goes for you.

      1. Helenteds*

        I tried to do that as much as possible, talking about how my previous volunteer experience related to the duties of the job description, but unfortunately there just isn’t that much to go on. Hopefully, I will acquire more experience that I can discuss in future cover letters this summer, even if it is just through volunteering (I want to work in collections/archival for history museums).

    2. Kimmy Schmidt*

      150 words is fairly short but not unreasonably so, and I’d guess a lot of your competition didn’t submit a cover letter at all. I don’t think a 1 page cover letter is as expected for a student internship with little experience. This is going to be the thing that gets you the experience you use in later cover letters! I would try to make it at least 3/4 of a page so it doesn’t look like wasted potential visually.

      1. Mental Lentil*

        I’d guess a lot of your competition didn’t submit a cover letter at all

        Based on what we’ve seen here recently, I’d have to agree with this.

        1. Helenteds*

          I think they specifically asked for a cover letter in the application system, so (hopefully) most of the candidates submitted one.

    3. Alex*

      If you got the interview, the cover letter was good enough! I don’t think most hiring managers ruminate on the cover letter after already talking to you in person. The cover letter is supposed to inspire them to interview you, and it did its job.

      That doesn’t mean you will or won’t get the job, but even if you don’t, it doesn’t mean you did anything “wrong” or “not good enough,” just that they decided another candidate was better suited for what they need in this position.

      1. Helenteds*

        I am not super confident, but I agree that it is mostly down to the rest of the candidate pool. I don’t think I am a “bad” candidate or they wouldn’t have bothered interviewing me, but I feel like there must be better candidates applying.

  111. The Future Of Work*

    I’ve been in my job for many years and I absolutely love it. I look forward to a long career with my company. Everyone in my office has been working from home full-time throughout the pandemic and we will continue to do so until August. During the first seven or eight months of the pandemic, the senior leadership (CEO, president, VPs, etc.) said we would be working from home a lot more after the pandemic ends since productivity and the financial health of the company has never been higher and they attributed that to the benefits of working from home. However, the messaging has changed in the last six months or so and now they’re talking about how we’ll be missing out on company culture if they allow work from home after the pandemic. They said we will all be returning to the office in some capacity and they’re no longer mentioning work from home.
    I find myself being very anxious about the mixed messages and not knowing what my employer’s plans are after fourteen months. I love my job but I also love working from home. Any advice? Thanks!

    1. Rick T*

      Talk to your manager about continuing to work from home. Don’t make assumptions and fret.

    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      Companies are still trying to figure this stuff out. I’m guessing they don’t know. I do think you should talk to your manager about your specific job and if you specifically can continue to work remotely. If you ask what the company is doing, your manager likely doesn’t know anything more than you do. But they might be able to agree that you could work remotely.

    3. Youcanalwayschangeyourdayaround*

      I agree with the other posters and say talk to your manager. I think a majority of employers are figuring out how all of this is going to work. I am sure most won’t do a everyone returns back to work on day one; as they know some employees might be hesitant about returning. I know where my mom works they are returning this summer and they are having a work one week at the office and the following week work from home schedule. This way everyone is not in the office at the same time.

  112. Type A in Recovery*

    I work in healthcare (think DO, MD, ARNP, PA level). I recently started a new job and love it (although I don’t love the commute lol). I had a recent eval that went really well, with my medical director encouraging me to get involved in leadership opportunity/committees. I want to be a team player, but I have to admit that I am not very fond of committees and don’t want the extra stress/time commitments that being in leadership would involve. I am married and have several kids, so time is at a premium for me. If it matters, I am also an introvert and while I love my job, it pretty much takes all my energy and I go home exhausted and needing to recharge. I don’t want to sabotage my career by not helping out though. I also don’t currently volunteer (again – no energy left after work/home). Should I push through and do these things anyway? Will it look bad on my CV/resume if I don’t do more? I was always Type A growing up and did anything/everything – which eventually led to severe burnout and some health consequences. So, I’ve tried to scale back and not push myself so hard. But I feel bad that I “only” work full time.

    1. Ins mom*

      New job, commute you don’t love, several kids, introvert, COVID is still out there, how about you give yourself time to catch your breath. Maybe your medical director would be accepting if you ask to defer the committees to ‘maybe next year.’

    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      Be honest with your medical director. Tell her that you appreciate the feedback and you have given it some thought and at this time you are interested in leadership opportunities. Between being in a new job, which you love, and personal commitments you don’t feel comfortable taking on more right now.

      Leaders often get excited when they believe someone has talent to do more and will assume that everyone wants to step into leadership roles. This is not the case and that is perfectly fine. You need to do what is right for you.

      1. Type A in Recovery*

        Thank you for your reply! Do you think it looks bad if I don’t have a lot of recent/current volunteer experience for my CV? How much weight/importance is given to volunteering? (I mean, other than the actual real life importance of volunteering – which I do, but nothing that I would specifically put on my resume/CV).

  113. Guest*

    This may be a little late in the day, but here goes. In the age of lots more Zoom interviews, how would you respond if an interviewer asked to record the interview? On the hiring side, I think it would save a lot of time if multiple people want to hear what the candidate has to say, but can’t make the interview time for various reasons. I, personally, wouldn’t mind at all, but wanted to check with a 3rd party.

    1. irene adler*

      Are they telling you why they wish to record the Zoom interview? I’d want to hear a reason.
      Sure, it makes sense to record the interview for others to view if they cannot attend in real time.
      But, I’d be wondering if they were going to submit the recorded interview to some AI analysis program that takes facial measurements while you are giving the interview. Such measurements are compared to successful candidates to determine your fitness for the position. Nope, not gonna submit to that.

    2. KaylinNeya*

      I would ask about why their recording it and what they are going to do with the recording. I (I admit) probably a little overzealous my personal privacy in regards to social media/recording, but I wouldn’t feel comfortable being recorded (at all). Unless they could give me a truly excellent idea on why it’s needs to be recorded and assure me on what steps will be done with it afterwards, this would be a definite no from me – enough that if it was required, it would be a deal breaker.

    3. SomebodyElse*

      I wouldn’t like this as an interviewer or an interviewee. It reminds me of having someone on the other side of a one way mirror.

      I would also be wary that I’d get a good discussion with a candidate if they are going to be self conscious about somebody viewing the interview at a later time.

      Bottom line, it falls under the creepy category for me.

    4. Momma Bear*

      I’d definitely ask why. If it’s to show someone else who has input in the hiring, sure. But I would find it awkward.

    5. Mental Lentil*

      Nope. We don’t record ordinary in-person interviews, so why would we do that now just because it’s an option? Just because we can do a thing doesn’t mean we should do that thing.

    6. HR Exec Popping In*

      Some companies do this. Generally for the first screening interview. They do this so that hiring manager who doesn’t participate in that interview can watch all the screens to help determine who to call back for an actual interview. You should ask about it. What is the purpose? How will it be secured? How long will it be retained?
      FWIW, I don’t care for the practice.

      1. SomebodyElse*

        As a hiring manager I’d hate this! We have a wonderful in-house recruiter that is a professional. She does a great job screening candidates. I review resume’s that are prescreened based on a discussion with the recruiter, I then give her a list of the ones I’d like her to phone screen. She comes back to me with her notes and impressions. I then ask her to schedule phone interviews for the ones I want out of that group.

        1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          Exactly! What’s the point of having a recruiter if you don’t trust them to do that first round of winnowing down the applicant pool?

    7. TWW*

      If the people who need to see my interview can’t prioritize showing up for the interview, I would assume that the company isn’t actually that interested in me.

    8. pancakes*

      I would probably be fine with it so long as it’s made clear that the purpose is to share the recordings with someone / some people who can’t make it to the interview, and that the recordings will be kept confidential and destroyed after hiring is wrapped up.

    10. tra la la*

      Higher ed here: we were recording job presentations (but not the full day’s interview) prior to the pandemic so that more people in my large unit could view it and comment. I’m also interviewing for jobs and have had at least one first-round interview recorded because a search committee member couldn’t be there. Having been that search committee member, the recording doesn’t bother me too much. Most of the time that I’m teaching online, I forget that I’m being recorded and just teach, so the recording itself doesn’t rattle me too much.

  114. LlamaLlamaLlama...*

    I am currently temping and wondering what to use as my job title on future resumes, because I’ve encountered three different variations of it during my employment.

    1. “Llama pediatrics administrative support (temp)”: this was the job title on the job listing I applied to and was used throughout the hiring process.

    2. “Clerk (temp staff)”: this is the title on most official stuff now that I’ve been hired including my badge, paystubs, so on.

    3. “Admin”: this is how my managers and coworkers actually refer to me and other workers with the same role. Sometimes it’s specifically “admin at llama pediatrics clinics”.

    My instinct is to use title #1 on my resume because it’s the most descriptive, especially because I’d like to apply to permanent jobs in “llama pediatrics” in the future, but I have mixed feelings because that title isn’t what’s typically used for me now. Does anyone have any advice?

    1. SomebodyElse*

      It sounds like they used a posting title for the job listing (I do this to target candidates*) but the official title is “Clerk”

      I’d go with #1 on a resume with “Clerk (temp staff)” in parenthesis. If you are questioned on it, just explain the working title vs. official title. Absolutely go with “Clerk (temp staff)” for background checks though.

      *I have a group that is mistitled their job descriptions are correct, salary range is correct, but the team name and individual titles are incorrect… Think Painter vs. Stainer close enough that it makes sense, but I’ll get different specialties if I don’t go with a posting title. I have been trying for 2 years now to get it changed… for some reason these kind of changes take forever to happen in my company.

      1. LlamaLlamaLlama...*

        Thanks for the insight! I figured the difference in title was something like that, especially because my employer potentially offers temp staff reassignment or permanent positions once their current assignment ends. I figure calling everyone “clerks” on paper makes things easier when someone accepts an offer to be reassigned from “llama pediatrics” to a similar-but-different role in “tiger podiatry”.

    2. Momma Bear*

      Why specify you are a temp? From my POV, temp or not that is your job for however long. Once you leave that job maybe include it in the description so people understand you didn’t just jump ship after 3 months.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My official title (your “clerk” equivalent) is “Coding/Clinical Team Lead” because they use the category for TLs in a variety of areas. I put it on my resume as “Coding Team Lead – Team XYZ”, so for you, I would go “Clerk – Llama Pediatrics”. Includes everything. :)

    4. Mental Lentil*

      I would say your official job title is “Llama pediatrics administrative support (temp)”. That describes what your duties were, and it’s the job you applied for and were hired for.

      Everything else is just shorthand/abbreviations, especially the paystubs. (The people who process the checks don’t care what you do, just what pay grade you’re at.)

  115. Mental Lentil*

    I would say your official job title is “Llama pediatrics administrative support (temp)”. That describes what your duties were, and it’s the job you applied for and were hired for.

    Everything else is just shorthand/abbreviations, especially the paystubs. (The people who process the checks don’t care what you do, just what pay grade you’re at.)

  116. Hiding from my Boss*

    I have been at my current co. over 10rs and on my current team for more than 5. Two people from my previous team agreed to be references for me, but that leaves the 5-year stint on current job. I reached out to someone who no longer works here; he politely said he’d get back to me and never did. There are a couple of other former coworkers I might try, BUT. They worked under my former manager, who did not like me at all and who is still with my co. on a different team. Is it worth the risk to reach out? I don’t know if the word would get back to FM and from her to my current boss.

    1. Kaylin Neya, Hawk*

      For me, part of it would depend on how well I knew the co-workers. Are they the type to gossip about everything or can they be depended on to keep your request confidential? Do you think they’d be able/willing to give you a good reference?

      1. Hiding from my Boss*

        That’s the question. The guy who politely ghosted me I think would have kept it confidential even though on LinkedIn he’s still connected with Former Manager. One of my other prospects I believe would keep it confidential but I didn’t work with her as much so just won’t know till I ask if she’ll be a reference. Another prospect is kind of a wild card too, we weren’t close colleagues but when she moved on I don’t think her relationship with FM was the greatest but that’s not to say she wouldn’t spill on me. There’s another possibility I worked with a bit, but enough that he might come through for me. But he’s a decent guy all around and worked remotely from the team office, so he wasn’t part and parcel of the in-house drama.

  117. YRH*

    After this awful year, what are people’s thoughts on using sick leave to take mental health days to visit the people you care about the most but haven’t been able to see because of the pandemic?

    1. HR Exec Popping In*

      It does not sound like the intent of a sick day. If one of my employees did this, I would question their integrity.

    2. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Is your PTO all in one bucket? Do you have any other leave you could take first? I wouldn’t personally begrudge someone for doing this, but if you have other options it might not be the best optics.

    3. Violette*

      If it was a single day, I just wouldn’t disclose why I couldn’t work that day (“Not feeling well,” is enough for just about every manager I’ve ever had).

      But if it’s several days of paid sick leave? I admit I’d be miffed if one of my employees did that. (It’s a tiny company, not a big corporation).

      I have paid sick leave so they don’t lose a paycheck just because they got sick, and so they don’t share whatever it is with the rest of us. But, at some relatively short point, the sick pay would run out and, if they weren’t able to work because of a genuine illness, then they wouldn’t get paid. And if it were clear they were sick and at risk of infecting everyone else but they came in anyway, I’d have to send them home without pay.

    4. Anono-me*

      I’m not a big fan, but I do realize that I
      don’t know the rest of your story.

      Here is what I think you should consider:

      What is this plan going to do to your coworkers work load?

      Do you have a huge amount of sick leave banked? One major health issue could take 12-15 weeks.

      If your employer is a strict sick leave is for medical issues only and anything goes sideways while traveling; what is your plan?

  118. DJ Abbott*

    So, I had a good job for almost 9 years in the administrative office of one of the departments of an inner-city hospital. They have corporate offices in two far away suburbs and appeared to be centralizing administrative functions there.
    In December 2019 they eliminated my position. Because of the pandemic I’ve been mostly unemployed since then.
    I looked at positions at this hospital last week. There were two that I could do, but they weren’t at the hospital. It said they’re in the City support center.
    The only administrative or support centers I knew of when I worked there were in the two faraway suburbs. I texted my colleague who is still there and she has not heard of any support centers in the city. I’m sure the support centers are the ones in the suburbs, even though it says City in the post.
    I’ve noticed this attitude by employers before. They assume that a support or administrative employee is willing to commute for hours in heavy traffic. That is not true of me! I live in the inner city and don’t keep a car because that’s the lifestyle I like. I would not take a job, even now, that expects me to buy a car and be on the road for more than an hour each way. For my former employer to say their jobs are in the city when they are not is typical of the way they treat employees and the reason I never looked at their posts again until now.

  119. Wracked by doubt*

    I think I’m on the cusp of getting a job offer I’m not sure I want. I’ve been at my current job 6 months and I’m finding it to be a bad fit culturally and not as challenging as I’d like. But it’s not terrible.

    New job has a lot of interesting work going on and I think a lot of potential to grow (which is why I applied), but also red flags– lots of vacancies/ turnover recently, disorganized hiring process. I don’t want to jump out of a job I just started for something worse.

    I am about to pass on this job but I would love to talk with someone who works there or recently left to get a candid idea of the workplace culture. Is it too weird to stalk people on LinkedIn and email them? I have a couple minor connections to a few of them (remember one of them from a job a loong time ago where we worked together a bit, the other I have seen a few times at a community project I am working on.)

    1. Reba*

      Not strangers you scrounge up on LinkedIn, but yes it’s definitely in bounds to ask people you know, however tangentially! You can acknowledge that it’s been a while or whatever, but this is a normal thing to ask. If that doesn’t pan out, ask the HR person or hiring manager to put you in touch with employees.

    2. micromanaged!*

      Omg, I truly could have written your first two paragraphs word for word, but I think I’m going to accept the job if it’s offered.

      I would ask the HR person as well to see if you could talk to someone who does the same/similar role on a different team, if they’re willing to do that? I guess LinkedIn could work but you might not get much of a response.

  120. procohic*

    In Jan, CO passed the Equal Pay For Equal Work Act which means job postings need to include salary range. So disappointed to see the number of socially responsible companies that now include “This position may be done remotely except for CO.”. Giving the benefit of the doubt, hoping these companies just need more time to update their job postings to include salary. Otherwise, they’d rather exclude talented candidates from an entire state to avoid being transparent about the range?

    2. TWW*

      Colorado contains about 2% of the US population, so they’re not excluding that many candidates. It may require more states passing similar laws before most companies are compelled to include salary in remote job postings.

  121. Disgruntled*

    My employer just ended teleworking for good AND announced that the janitorial service in our building was essentially restricted to cleaning the toilets once a week only. There are 500 people in our building alone.

    1. Hiding from my Boss*

      That’s horrifying. Doesn’t sound like they’re interested in health & safety, on multiple fronts.

    2. PollyQ*

      I’d worry that their unwillingness to pay for normal janitorial services means they’re having financial issues.

    3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      so…trash? who needs to empty it and how/when? I can’t imagine letting lunch trash build up for a week in an office or expecting each person to empty their own trash each night.

  122. HR Exec Popping In*

    Be honest with your medical director. Tell her that you appreciate the feedback and you have given it some thought and at this time you are interested in leadership opportunities. Between being in a new job, which you love, and personal commitments you don’t feel comfortable taking on more right now.

    Leaders often get excited when they believe someone has talent to do more and will assume that everyone wants to step into leadership roles. This is not the case and that is perfectly fine. You need to do what is right for you.

  123. Cough Cough*

    I am worried about scaring coworkers with my chronic cough.

    I have a chronic health condition that includes a cough and next month I am scheduled to return to the office of a 1500+ employer. My close coworkers know that I have a chronic cough and I will tell them that I am vaccinated. I will wear a mask correctly in public areas, but what else can I do?

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      I have a chronic cough caused by asthma and when it starts up I just apologetically say “asthma.” Even if you don’t have asthma, it is an explanation that people immediately understand and are fine with, so you might try that.

    2. ecnaseener*

      If it were me I’d wave it off with a wry “not COVID, just tuberculosis / bubonic plague!”

      1. Donkey Hotey*

        Seriously, this. I used to have a sign in 72 point font reading “Not contagious, just reflux” because I had so many people concern-trolling me.

  124. Improve This Process*

    I’d like the commentariat to let me know if I did the right thing.

    I work in process improvement. I toured a non-corporate (“field”) location and the head of the location, a white man about my age, called me “young lady” over the phone the day before and “dear” the day of. (“Go have a sit-down in the team room, dear; I’ll be right with you.”) While he has the word “manager” in his title and I do not, I outrank him in both pay and power (access to senior management).

    I did my site tour with him, noted areas that need improvement, gathered all the documentation/info I needed, and then, before I left, said, “I have a comment/observation slightly outside the scope of this tour. Yesterday you called me ‘young lady’ and today you called me ‘dear’..”

    He interrupted me and said “I shouldn’t have done that, should I?” I said, “No you shouldn’t have. It’s really not appropriate in a business situation. I know you mean well but let’s address everyone the same in the workplace, OK?”

    When I told my manager about it, he (also a white man, but about 10 years younger than I am) said, “Oh, yeah, that’s the field for you. I always just ignore stuff like that.” It was said in the same tone of voice and body language he uses when giving me suggestions/feedback.

    I replied (blurted out, really), “But you’re a white man. His language toward women has no effect on you. Do you think you’d see it differently he’d called *you* ‘young gentleman’ or if one of our women VPs called you ‘dear’?” He just kind of shrugged. [Probably because both of those situations are so far removed from the realm of Things That Are Possible that his brain just couldn’t go there, even as a hypothetical.]

    My fellow project leads (all women) have told me that they wouldn’t have said anything to the site manager. Not that they wouldn’t have bristled but that they wouldn’t have had the courage to say anything. They also dropped their jaws when I told them about my conversation with our manager. (FWIW, I have a really, really good relationship with him and normally consider him an ally).

    Ours is a traditional, conservative-leaning company that recently started paying lip-service to diversity. (Only 1/4 of our employees are women, and about 10% are POC).

    Should I have just ignored/laughed off the sexist language, like I have done for most of my 54 years?

    1. PollyQ*

      No, you did good, and I hope everyone you talked to learned a little bit of a lesson, either about not saying sh*t like that in the first place, or about finding the willingnesss/courage to push back on it.

    2. RagingADHD*

      You did exactly right, and addressed both instances with far more professionalism than I probably could have mustered.

      1. Improve This Process*

        I was genuinely shocked. I had expected (hoped?) he would say something along the lines of, “That’s the field for you; I’m glad you handled it so well. Maybe we can change them one person at a time.”

        But damned if I didn’t swim in that water for decades, too, and once would have thought that the site manager was just “being nice”. So I’m doing my best to extend the same grace to my manager that people extended to me when I slowly started realizing [for lots of systemic, societal things]: “Oh. OH! This is… WRONG. So very very *wrong*. How could I not see this before?”

        Ditto the site manager. His sexism is cultural and ingrained. It’s the water he swims in every day. I hope that one person telling him, politely and professionally, that it’s Not OK, will at least get him to think twice about it in the future.

        And, hell, if all that happens is he cussed in my general direction after the door closed behind me, *I* feel better for having said something. And for hopefully modeling that behavior for my fellow project leads and our manager (instead of tanking any capital I had built up, and signaling to my manager that I am “trouble”).

        1. WellRed*

          It sounds like you handled it perfectly and it sounds like the site manager took it well.

    5. LadyByTheLake*

      You handled it perfectly. What gets me is that the site manager KNEW he shouldn’t be saying that because he fessed up when you called him on it. My guess is that now that you said no, he’ll improve. But oh, your manager. What a colossal jerk and enabler.

    6. CatMom*

      I like what you did in both situations. While your manager’s response was disappointing, you gave him something important to think about.

  125. RagingADHD*

    Informal survey for a project I’m working on:

    For those who work in purchasing, manufacturing, production, or engineering: what are the biggest problems you have with suppliers, or the biggest worries about finding suppliers for a new product design? What would be helpful to you in evaluating and choosing a new supplier if you had to?

    1. Supplier*

      I’m in a production/manufacturing field in the apparel industry. When considering a new supplier, I want to consider their:

      monthly capacity breakdown
      top customers/clients
      sustainability certificates
      technologies
      what machineries/processes supplier has
      QA/inspection policies

  126. Newbie*

    Q for any feds or former feds: I recently took my first fed job on a 5/7/9/11 gs ladder. Some of my colleagues are on 11/12/13 ladders. I have the quals for the higher levels, and I’m wondering if anyone knows if it’s possible to transfer from one laddered position to another in the same department. If so, does anyone have any advice for how to have that conversation with management?

  127. Technical Colleges are awesome*

    Yes! Look at a community or technical college. I’ve worked at public technical colleges for over a decade and they are great places to work. The faculty I’ve worked with who’ve come from the trades (welding, electrical, construction, woodworking, etc.) often are subject matter experts with a small amount of teaching experience. And in my state, faculty are unionized so while the pay may not be as good as working in industry, I’ve found the pay scales to be pretty dang good for academia.

    If you want to see what it would be like, you can try to get on to the advisory board of a program, work as a substitute instructor or pick up a one quarter class as an instructor. I’d recommend talking to the program faculty who could give you advice about how to make those pathways happen.

    As someone said upthread, you will definitely need to be prepared to work with a wide variety of people both inside and outside of the classroom. In the classroom, you’ll have students ages 16-70, all races, genders, socioeconomic classes, etc all at the same time with different levels of interest and preparedness. Outside of the classroom, you’ll have managers who may or may not be able to negotiate a working compromise between the needs of the college and the needs of your program.

  128. Wasp Salander*

    Hi all, I’m in a situation and need a bit of advice on what to do…

    In Feb 2021, I left the company I had been working for for the last 3 years. 2 years back we were told to leave a Glassdoor. It was a small team so any review you leave could easily be detected so I don’t think anyone left an honest review, I know I didn’t. However, in the review, I did mention that we don’t have an official holiday list. The company was established a decade ago but the founder worked alone for several years occasionally hiring 2/3 engineers. When I joined 3 years ago he had hired about 10 people. The company functioned like a startup as in things were very informal. Like we didn’t have a holiday list, didn’t get any payslips, didn’t get any joining letters unless you asked for it.

    After leaving in Feb, I wanted to remove the previous review and add a new one. But I choose to delay it so that I can think things over. On May 13 I left a new review and deleted the old one. I wrote stuff like good pay, no hierarchy, plenty of opportunities to wear many hats, flexible timing, extremely collaborative and stimulating environment. And in the cons I wrote stuff like small team hence heavy workload, no work-life balance, flexible timing but doesn’t matter you’ll be working all the time, inefficient processes, lots of miscommunication, and lack of trust, lots of micromanagement, useless meetings, extremely harsh feedback, complete lack of praise, open office structure causes plenty of distractions, impossible to do deep working, no avenue for constructive complaint, etc. I also mentioned that some of the issues were being addressed at the time of leaving.

    I thought I’ll finally move on but within a week I get a call from the HR. I couldn’t pick the call because I was asleep, taking an afternoon nap. I think it’s regarding the review I left on Glassdoor. After leaving I had spoken to the HR regarding tax and stuff so I can think of no other reason why he should be calling me now. Should I call him back?

    1. RagingADHD*

      I’d return the call just in case it is about something financial.

      There’s also a chance they may want more info about the problems you mentioned in the review because they want to address them. But you don’t have to engage in that conversation if you don’t want to.

      Similarly, if they have any kind of inappropriate response you can just say goodbye and hang up.

      1. Wasp Salander*

        I appreciate your perspective about them wanting more details on future improvement but I think they’ll be better off asking people who are still working there. Their attitude was always work first not relationship first (not that companies have to prioritise building relationship with employees, balance is the name of the game) so when the work is done, I’m out . I don’t owe any more information to them. What do you think?

        1. ecnaseener*

          You don’t owe them any more info, but I wouldn’t blame them for wanting to direct any clarifying questions at the person who actually wrote the review, instead of (or in addition to!) current employees who didn’t write it and may just shrug their shoulders if asked to explain why someone else wrote it.
          As RagingADHD said, you don’t have to engage with it if you don’t want to. But it seems reasonable for them to ask.

  129. Marzipan*

    I’ve inherited responsibility for my department’s (relatively new) social media presence, and although I use social media to an extent irl it’s not something I’m hugely knowledgeable about. Does anyone have any suggestions for good resources as a general primer on the topic?

    1. CatMom*

      Check with the organizations of your industry and see if they’ve published anything on social media in _______ industry.

      I was assigned social media responsibilities, but I only post when somebody tells me to because after a few posts, I realized that I didn’t understand what they wanted me to do with the social media.

  130. Anon for this*

    So. I’ve been incredibly burned out from COVID induced increased workload, and it seems a lot of the changes that were made that increased my workload are here to stay. Because of reasons, I get less than half the PTO of anyone else in my department, and I only started accruing it a few months ago (meaning I don’t have any banked to take a prolonged period of time off). My coworkers have been coping with burnout by taking a week off here and there to get by. I…. have not. I’m definitely starting to burn out, I can’t remember whether things happened yesterday, a week ago, or a month ago, and I’m so exhausted that I can’t concentrate to study for the certification I need to move up to the next level in my career. My original plan was study for cert, get cert, move on, and ignore my manager’s promises that he’s planning on moving me into a position that would give me the same PTO as my coworkers. He’s been promising this for years and it hasn’t happened, but now there’s an actual concrete plan to promote a coworker and give me coworker’s old position. Except… he just called me and told me about how someone from another department might apply and he’d feel really bad telling them no because he doesn’t want to crush their hopes and dreams. Much emphasis on the value of not crushing hopes and dreams.

    I…. I work in a position where a disgruntled employee could do a LOT of damage. Obviously I’m not going to do anything because I’m not stupid, but well…. I have choices to make.

    1. Start applying for new jobs now, because seriously a manager who has a conversation with someone in my position about crushing their dreams for the sake of someone else’s dreams is not a manager I want to work for. This has the benefit of getting me out of here fastest so I don’t have to be around to pick up the mess if he does this to someone who is less not stupid than me and they retaliate. However, I don’t have the cert yet, and I’d have to stay in a new job for at least two or three years. That’s… a lot, for the benefits a job that needs the cert would give.
    2. Stick around, get the cert, leave with cert. This has the disadvantage of having to stay here longer, but the advantage of being able to move into a position that requires the cert.
    3. Stick around, possibly have new position posted, start job hunting immediately if he does hire the other person for the job he’s been promising me. Same advantages and disadvantages of 1, only it would give me a hilarious “why are you job hunting?” question answer.
    4. Stick around, possibly have new position posted, actually be hired for it, take time off to recover mentally, get cert, quit in a year. This has the disadvantage of being incredibly uncertain given all of the other factors involved, but the advantage of I would only have to stay here a year or two before moving on to new job that needs cert.

    And I…. do I tell this poor soul who’d be theoretically interviewing against me for the job I’ve been promised for years any of this? Part of me wants to give them a heads up if I leave it’s not you it’s the manager because I absolutely don’t want them to think I’m angry at them. I’m not. I’ve lost most of the faith I had in manager, but I’m not angry at this person who is probably completely unaware that this job which looks like a golden stepping stone for them is my only ticket out of massive inequality with the rest of the department misery. But that would be an awkward conversation….

    1. The teapots are on fire*

      Ask the manager why he thinks it’s okay to crush YOUR hopes and dreams. Really ask that. He forgot you’re a person. Remind him.

    2. Anono-me*

      Look now. Compare what you actually find against what you have.

      A big part of it on depends on how long it takes to get the certification. If the certificate takes a long time, maybe jump as soon as possible. If the certificate is only a short time away, try to stick it through.

  131. Tech Writer*

    I may be moving to Chicago next year – I met with the recruiter in early March one week after I started my new job in DC, and explained the situation. We agreed that meeting back at the end of the year would be a good decision, since that’s when my contract ends.

    If/when I meet up with the Chicago recruiter, what are good questions to ask about moving states/cities? I’ve got relocation expense, but is there anything else I should ask or budget for?

  132. Violet*

    Thank you e-mail for a phone screen? It was a Zoom screen that was supposed to be 30 minutes but happily turned into 45.

    Y/N?

  133. Bruise Campbell*

    Hey Y’all I’m in Texas and was wondering if anyone knew if there is any law or anything that says you have to let an employee leave work to get their vaccine? Thanks

  134. A question of ethics*

    I realize it’s the weekend and likely will get no responses, but something has been digging in my brain and I thought I’d try to get some perspective:

    As a consultant, I work with various consulting firms to get my contracts (which are usually long term). This past week, in talking to a recruiter (who had scheduled me for a client interview), I was given a list of feedback this particular client hiring manager had written about others during the interview process, including the names of the people interviewing. Much of the feedback seemed pretty unkind, although it was given out of context.

    I felt really weird about this, and I mentioned to the recruiter that I felt uncomfortable getting specific interview feedback from others in my industry, with their names, and that it had maybe given me a bad impression of the client. The recruiter answered that she was sorry that I had taken this the wrong way, blah blah blah, turning it on me, but I had never asked for this in the first place and I feel it was wrong of her to share.

    It made me think: are there any laws in place where recruiters are not allowed to send on interview comments and feedback randomly like this? It seems like a whole privacy issue, and I can’t imagine that any of these people would be happy to know that I had some insights into their interviewing process that they, themselves, never had. And I know their names, and could possibly work with them someday in the future.

    I feel gross about it, which is usually a barometer for something being wrong. Of course, I will never work with this recruiter again (there have been already big mistakes on her part before this, like getting crucial information wrong about contracts) but I wonder if my own information is being shared with people outside of the process after I interview and it makes me uncomfortable.

    1. A question of ethics*

      And, just to clarify:

      The recruiter sent me feedback that her client (the hiring manager) had sent specifically about other people who had interviewed with her for this role (and had been rejected).

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      In the U.S., it doesn’t violate any laws but it’s incredibly unprofessional and weird (and not something you should expect to encounter again).

  135. Maxie*

    I have a question that relates to somebody else’s work place. I went for sn imaging exam ,and one of the women at the front desk head arms that were so thin, like skin and bones, that it really scared me. The reminded me of photos of holocaust survivors. I know there’s a million different reasons that she could be severely underweight or look like that, but it really scared me and had stayed with that she has a serious eating disorder. And of course she could be in treatment. I did not say anything to her, of course, and I don’t know if it is appropriate for me to follow up in any other way . So my question is, is there something I should do or tell someone? I would particularly to hear from people living with eating disorders, whether or not they’re in recovery.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Definitely not your place. If it’s a medical issue, it’s not your place for obvious reasons. If it’s an eating disorder, it’s notoriously hard even for people very close to the person to have effective interventions. As a stranger, there’s no way to do this that wouldn’t be incredibly rude and intrusive.

    2. Observer*

      Who would you tell and what would you tell them? Anyone who is working with her knows how skinny she is. Anyone who doesn’t know almost certainly doesn’t know enough about her to be able to react effectively.

      In short. No, don’t say anything to anyone.

  136. Anono-me*

    Definatly do not say anything in the described situation.

    However, thank you for listening to your inner hesitation and asking a trusted resource before saying anything . You could have really hurt the feelings of the woman if you hadn’t decided to check here first.

  137. CountryLass*

    I’m late to this, but I hope someone can offer advice!
    I lost my grandmother on 16th MAy this year. She was rushed to hospital in a coma on the 14th and passed on 16th. Her wishes have always been to get everything sorted as soon as possible, when my grandfather passed years ago, she was the same. Get the ‘life admin’ sorted quickly to allow the grief to flow easier. And that is how my family are.
    As I work in property, my parents (the executors of the estate) asked me (one of the three beneficiaries) to arrange to get the property valued the day after she passed. This was done on the 19th, and the decision was made that night to put it on the market. I told the sales manager on the 20th that we wanted it on the market starting 24th May (today).

    As I told him that, someone I work next to turned round and said “You’re very quick getting it on the market considering she only died a few days ago”. I stammered out some sort of joke and a comment about getting it done quickly, then slipped off to the loo to cry without anyone noticing. I barely managed to get through the rest of the day with her, and told our boss, who said she will speak to her.

    So far, that doesn’t appear to have happened, or if it has, she hasn’t told me. I don’t know how to deal with this. I am trying to remain professional and speak to her about work topics, but I don’t want anything to do with her. My parents and my husband are furious. The people I have spoken to about this have said it is incredibly rude and disrespectful, she does not know my nan’s wishes or my family’s circumstances. And I know there are people who think this is too fast, it is faster than I anticipating it being, but you still don’t say it!

    Any advice on how to deal with this?

    1. Sorry for your loss*

      I would assume best intentions here. Has she said anything offensive to you before? Or is it possible she made a comment without thinking and now also feels terrible about it?
      You should of course take time to grieve your nan and put this comment out of your mind. Though certainly that was a rude thing for her to say, not wanting anything to do with her does seem a bit harsh.

      1. CountryLass*

        She is known for saying whatever she thinks. Our boss called her into the office yesterday and told her to close the door, with us that means trouble. She told her it was out of order, insensitive and cruel, and that she had really upset me. She said that it is not up to me when the house gets sold (true) and that she needs to remember that I have just lost a close family member that I loved, and she needs to think be before she speaks, think about what I am going through and think how she would feel if she was me.

        I have yet to receive an apology from her, but she has gone out of her way to be nice and say how hard this all must be for me and it is clear my nan was very loved. Which is nice, but I would still like an apology, to show she knows it was out of line.

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