open thread – May 28-29, 2021

by Alison Green on May 28, 2021

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Should i apply?*

    How much does commute time matter to you when applying for a job? I have been job searching, and some of the jobs have sounded interesting but would double my commute from 20 mins to ~40 mins. Does extra money make it worth it?

    I have been working from home for the last year, which has spoiled me with no commute. I will have to go back to the office soon, but an 40 min commute sounds pretty unappealing.

    1. IL JimP*

      I did 40 mins for a few years, it does grind you down especially if it’s heavy traffic

      Guess the tradeoff would be how much is the money difference and how easily does traffic grind you down?

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        I’ve had several commutes that were 1 hr 45 minutes to 2 hours each way, so 40 minutes sounds like a dream, but if you’re used to 20, double what you’re used is probably terrible.

        I mean, it’s a big factor. If my workplace wasn’t going to a hybrid WFH after Covid-19 lockdown, I don’t know how long I’d stay…

        1. RabbitRabbit*

          Yeah, pre-COVID my morning commute on public transit was an hour, in the evening it was closer to 1.5 hours. If I was still doing that currently, the total commute would probably be closer to 3.5 hours. I was fine with the commute before but my QOL would go through the floor now.

      2. Nicotene*

        If you can take public transit the whole way, I found 40 minutes doable for a few years. But I was sitting on a metro train, not fighting traffic. It was “me time.” (And still kinda frustrating).

        1. Joan Rivers*

          It depends on the quality of the commute, traffic and public transport.

          I once had my cat in a carrier at my feet coming home from the vet, on a crowded NY subway, and a guy suddenly started yelling at me and threatening me — “Stop bumping me!” when I was not! — and it was so scary, I was afraid for my cat.

        2. Cendol*

          Yup. My pre-WFH commute was about an hour each way on public transit or an hour and fifteen minutes on foot. It was also “me” time, and I used it to read/work on personal projects or get some exercise, but it sucked. I didn’t realize how much it sucked until it stopped and I suddenly had two extra hours in my day for *real* me time.

          Unless it’s a massive amount of money, I’d seriously consider the 20-minute commute job!

          1. Nicotene*

            For me it was the frustration of late trains, missing trains and suddenly having 20 minutes of waiting around, trans unloading mid-transit … I had to have a pretty big buffer to commute that way if I had to make a morning meeting. And it was a lot of mental space thinking about it. But certainly the time sitting on the train was less stressful than grinding in traffic would have been.

            1. Cendol*

              Definitely…for me it was the gridlock both outside (the slowest crawl you could imagine as a constant stream of double-buses tried to inch their way down streets that had *not* been built for them) and in (dudes obstinately refusing to sit in the empty seats, but also blocking them by standing in front of them, while the rest of us sardined in–why!!). Loads of stress on the way in, and I used to work late sometimes just to avoid the crush on the way out.

          2. Sparrow*

            I’m the same. My commute was roughly 45 minutes on public transportation and it had been ok for a couple of years because it was shorter than my previous commute by 20 minutes. I really didn’t realize how life changing it would be to have that time back.

            If the jobs are roughly equal and the pay difference isn’t massive, I’d probably opt for the shorter commute – it really does impact quality of life. That said, if the job with the longer commute paid significantly more or if that job was much more interesting to me, I’d seriously consider it anyway (especially if it paid significantly more AND was more interesting to me).

    2. Procrastinating at work*

      To me I would need it to be a perfect job with great pay for that much more commute time. Even then I would be hesitant. That’s so much time I would lose out of every day and so much less time to do things I want. No amount of podcasts or music during a drive would make it better at the end of the day

      1. Hawkeye is in the details*

        I grew up in the SF Bay Area, 40 minutes was considered standard! I now live in a largish city that historically has not had many traffic issues until recently, and people thought I was insane for working 30 minutes from my house (which made it 45 minutes in traffic-heavy times), but it didn’t bother me so much, as long as I had my music to sing to.

        It all depends on your personality and probably what other commitments you have to fit into your day. I’ll admit the commute did get a little more frustrating when I got a dog to come home to/worry about.

        1. the cat's ass*

          I feel this! lived in the east bay, commuted or took BART to South San and it was the WORST, colored by the fact that the job was pretty terrible. Easily 90 minutes one way at the height of dot com 1.0.

          Still live in EB, but commute to the north bay and it’s a short beautiful commute to Marin going opposite rush hour traffic to a job i really like.

          Your mileage may vary, (ouch) OP, but it depends on what the commute actually looks like/is there alternative public or private transport/and a job that’s worth it. Good luck!

          1. LabRat*

            Oooooh, thanks for this! I’m East Bay, and was commuting into the city on transit pre-COVID; it could take 2 hours to get home on a bad day.
            Now I’m working for a different company, and once we go back to the office I can work in either SSF or North Bay; it’s good to know that that commute is against traffic and low key!

            1. the cat's ass*

              it’s even beautiful and pleasant (the bridge, Mt Tam, sometimes the moon). Enjoy!

          2. Lives In a Shoe*

            I hear this! I was in the north end of the EB, commuting to mid-EB, and it was horrific. Car, public transit, it was all long. I did it because I had no choice, but the minute I could afford it I moved bicycle-distance to work. I hope to never ever have a commute like that again – it really diminished my life in many different ways.

            1. MsChanandlerBong*

              I visited SF a couple of years ago, and I honestly don’t know how any does it. Beautiful place, but the traffic is worse there than in NYC!

          3. osmoglossum*

            Another Easy Bay-ite here! For years I worked in the financial district – as commutes go it was relatively easy. On those rare days when all went well, my morning commute was an hour, including driving to the BART station. The norm, however, was 1.25 – 1.5 hours. After years of that, I got a job 2.5 miles away from where I live — my commute was 10 minutes. What a flipping joy that was. Sadly, the company was terrible, but, oh, that commute was awesome.

    3. ThatGirl*

      It matters to me a fair amount – I spent 9 years at a company that was minimum 40 minutes and depending on weather or traffic could drag to an hour or more. It could be soul-sucking and the only thing that kept me sane was the ability to work from home some of the time. My next job was a 15-minute drive and it just made my life much easier.

      That said, what matters to me as much as distance is can I keep moving — I’d rather spend 30 minutes actually driving 30 miles than driving 10 in heavy traffic. But in Chicago the latter is much more likely.

      1. The Rural Juror*

        Same. I used to commute 40 miles in a rural area, which wasn’t horrible…even if it was kind of far. Now I commute 8 miles and sometimes it can take 40min to an hour. Whether you’re moving or not does make a big difference. Pandemic trafficlessness has cut my commute down to 15-20 min which has been awesome.

    4. Jake*

      I commuted 65 minutes each way for 2.5 years. We worked 10 or 12 hour shifts. During 10 hour shifts it was doable. During the 12s though it was just too much.

      My experience with commuting is almost exclusively that it depends on your work shifts. If it reliably an 8 hour shift, it is probably worth some extra money. If the shift is very long or not reliable then a long commute exacerbates that issue and makes it less tolerable.

    5. Old Reliable*

      I did 40 min for years and kinda enjoyed the time for audiobooks. But I think it would be a big adjustment after having had no commute and getting used to cooking dinner and having a leisurely morning routine. If the job was interesting enough it wouldn’t stop me, but I would look for key factors (stores and services) that make life easier so that I’m not doing extra driving outside of the job to home route – gym/running paths on the way, grocery store on the way, vet on the way, etc.

    6. Person from the Resume*

      It matters to me. I’ve mostly had 10-20 minute commutes, but I had a 1 hour commute through congested traffic for several years. I managed it okay. The type of commute makes a big difference in how unpleasant it is for me. an you just forget and drive or are you driving through congestion and getting stressed and frustrated with traffic and traffic lights?

      I would not go above an hour, but 40 minutes seems acceptable to me.

    7. The Crowening*

      To me, the stress level of the commute (number of stoplights, tolls, train tracks, heavy traffic, construction) is at least as important as the length of time. I used to work at a government installation that was just really large – of my 30-minute commute, 20 of those minutes were the time it took to get from the badge gate to my building. Not much to be done about that, and it was a very easy commute – I never minded it. My husband worked in a place that was 35-40 minutes from home, partly highway and partly through towns; he never really complained about the commute but hated the job with the heat of a thousand suns. Last year he found a new job that’s about 45 minutes away, but it’s all freeway/highway, moves along steadily, and he hasn’t complained at all. It’s a little longer than his old commute, but he doesn’t hate the job, and he doesn’t hate the commute either, so I consider it worth it. :)

      1. Spearmint*

        I second this!

        I used to think I wouldn’t mind a long commute. I enjoyed driving and liked listening to podcast and audiobooks, so I thought it would be a nice time to relax before and after work. But then I took a job with a 70 minute commute in a city that is growing faster than its transportation infrastructure. It was miserable. It took 10 minutes drive the four blocks to between the parking garage and the highway, and when I did reach the highway it was mostly stop and start traffic. When there was no congestion, this same drive took 20 minutes. I eventually discovered a slight faster non-highway route, but even that had heavy traffic and lots of stop lights and a few complicated intersections.

        What I realized was that I enjoy driving when I’m cruising along on an open highway and can mentally relax (it’s almost meditative), but not when I’m having to navigate through heavy traffic, especially when I’m already exhausted after a full day’s work.

    8. ThatOnePlease*

      I had a 1-hour commute each way for a while, and it was miserable. But, the job paid poorly, it wasn’t a direct commute (drive to train station, find parking, catch train, walk 10 minutes to office), and it cost me about $20 a day between parking and train fare. I also had to rush home to make daycare pickup, so it was stressful to be so far away and know that any delay could really screw me over. I WFH now and I’d only consider a commute again if the job was good, the pay was *very* good, and there were enough flexibility to make it manageable.

    9. bluecup*

      While you can listen to books and podcasts during your commute, like someone else said, it really does wear on your during inclement weather or bad traffic. I did a 45-60 mins commute for 4 years and it was GRIND. If the job is terrible, the commute just compounds that effect. However, I’d still consider it if all the pay and benefits and cultural aspects line up. Sometimes it’s best to go the distance for a good job. If there’s a possibility to negotiate a hybrid remote/in-person set up, I’d at least ask. Maybe after 3-4 years you can take that on.

    10. ecnaseener*

      For me personally, consistency makes more of a difference than average length. I wouldn’t mind that much if my commute was always an hour, but it was so frustrating to never know if it would be 40 minutes or 90.

      1. RagingADHD*

        This is a great point. At one job, I had about a 7-minute window in the morning where my commute would take about 35 minutes and get me into the office within 10-15 minutes of my normal start time. If I left earlier or later, it would take an hour. Plus there were often wrecks and inexplicable jams for no apparent reason that could take upwards of an hour and a half, two hours to get through. Like, a little more than once every two weeks.

        Commute roulette plays merry hell with your stress, especially if you have a butt-in-seat kind of job.

    11. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Is this commute via car or public transportation? Is there a dollar amount you can put on how much extra you’d need to make for it to be worth it? Just for yourself so you have an idea of “I will only accept twenty extra minutes for 20,000 extra dollars” or whatever.

      Can you make a decision matrix for yourself, weight factors like comfort, less time for your personal life, health, money, etc.?

      I’d apply to these jobs, but I’d be extra diligent and cautious during the interview process to make sure it really is worth it.

      1. Sans $$*

        Yeah, my tolerance depends on my commute. My current workplace is about a 10-15 min drive and a 30-45 minute bike ride. I like the ride, but I don’t think I’d tolerate it if the drive were that long.

        That being said, I currently live and work in an urban center. Wouldn’t have blinked an eye at a 30 minute drive back when I lived in the country.

      2. Bon Voyage*

        As others have said, I think that the kind of commute matters! My 40-minute commute on a slow-and-steady local train was much more enjoyable than a 25-minute commute that required multiple bus transfers. I imagine that I’d have similar feelings about a longer drive on a back route versus a shorter drive along a more taxing route.

      3. A Genuine Scientician*

        Strongly agree. The type of commute makes such a big difference.

        When I was a grad student in the Bay Area, pretty much all of the students lived either a) on campus, or b) at least a 45 minute commute away, sometimes longer. The ones who had a single train ride and then a 5-10 minute walk at either end of it were fine — they could print out some papers to read on the train and not have to give any thought to their commute. The ones who had to drive were frazzled by it, and often ended up shifting their schedules to try to be off-peak on traffic. I was one of the on-campus students, but it was large enough that I was still routinely a 20 minute walk. However, 20 minutes of walking is much less stressful to me than 20 minutes of driving — assuming it’s not in sub 0 temperatures, which it never was there, unlike either where I live now or where I grew up — so having some time to myself for the walk was actually somewhat pleasant.

        I personally would hate anything more than a 30 minute driving commute. I could do a bit longer on public transport if it was a train or a subway, but probably not a bus; I need to pay too much attention on a bus since stops are sometimes skipped if no one signals for them and traffic alters how long it takes to get from one stop to another, so it’s harder to just let my subconscious alert me to “This is when you need to start paying attention again”.

    12. Yellow Warbler*

      I’ve never had a commute shorter than 45 minutes. #rural life

      It’s mostly about what you’re used to, I think. Your tolerance expands or contracts with the average.

      1. Spearmint*

        A 45 minute commute in a rural area is not really comparable to a 45 minute commute in a city. The rural commute will be spent mostly cruising down highways at the speed limit. In a city, if you drive (as most people do in the US), it will involve lots of stop lights and heavy traffic, which is far more stressful.

        1. Yellow Warbler*

          LOL, no.

          It’s spent doing 3 mph for three miles as you wait for a tractor to get TF out of the way on a no-passing road, or yelling at the guinea hens to get out of the road, or finding an alternate route because the bridge washed out for the third time this spring. <– all things I do regularly

          1. Sleepless*

            Haha! This. I’ve had 45 minute commutes in a dense suburb and in the middle of nowhere. Honestly, I’d take the suburb. Driving and driving and DRIVING past hay fields and getting stuck behind a tractor make me crazy. I’m so used to traffic and lights they’re just part of the scenery.

          2. Spearmint*

            Fair enough! I do know some people in rural areas whose commutes really are easy cruising down highways, but I was wrong to state it like it was universal.

            1. Windchime*

              That’s how it was when I lived in a rural area. 5 minutes to get out of my tiny town, and then 15 minutes of cruising at 60mph on the highway. My friend who lived even further away lived on a windy road where he was always afraid he would hit a mountain goat. So his commute was a little more stressful.

          3. uncivil servant*

            School buses! So much fun, as they travel slowly down the only road for 40 minutes, stopping every few hundred metres while you can’t pass them.

          4. Yellow Warbler*

            ETA: Sharing because of the irony. Just got a notification that a quarry truck struck a freight train, sending the truck airborn and wrapping it around the locomotive. The photos in the local news are something else.

            The train track is between my work and my home. I’m not sure if they’ll have the track cleared by the time I leave the office today. This is peak rural commute material!

          6. meyer lemon*

            Also depends what you mean by “rural.” When I lived in a non-farmland rural area, tourists were the biggest menace on the road.

        2. LifeBeforeCorona*

          My rural commute was on curvy hills with a speed limit of 35 and no cruise control. Also, there is a good chance of hitting wildlife like deer or other animals.

    13. Ranon*

      I don’t mind the time by transit as much, but if I’m driving I want it short. Active commute (biking/ walking) going from 20 to 40 minutes would probably almost be a pro right now, I could use the extra movement!

      If driving you can also use the IRS mileage reimbursement rate to get a rough back of envelope commute cost so you can make sure that extra money isn’t just going into your car as well as taking extra time.

    14. rachel in nyc*

      I think it depends on where you live?

      I live (and work) in NYC where an hour commute is pretty normal.

      Heck, I have co-workers who commute around 2 hours each way. Someone actually moved to Pennsylvania because their commute from Brooklyn to our office in Manhattan took so long that the commute from Pennsylvania was just as bad.

      1. kicking_k*

        I had a two-hour commute for a while, but with two key factors: I was part-time, and it was all on public transport, bus and train. So I had at least an hour of that to sit and read, watch DVDs or whatever. At that time in my life it was the most peaceful part of my week!

        When my hours temporarily went up it became exhausting – mostly from the length of the day.

        Now I have a fifteen-minute bike ride and I will say being near my home is nice.

      2. Aquawoman*

        Yeah, I’m in DC with a 45-minute commute and I have one of the shorter commutes. Lots of people have 1 to 2 hour commutes. I know one person who commutes from Baltimore.

    15. Tuckerman*

      I think part of it depends on whether it’s reliably 40 minutes or whether there’s lots of variability. If it’s 40 miles away on an open freeway that’s one thing. If it’s stop and go traffic that may be 35 minutes one day but 70 minutes another, that can really interfere with quality of life/other obligations like daycare pick up.

    16. Decidedly Me*

      I will gladly take less money for less commute. I work from home now (even before COVID) and I’m not sure I will ever want to switch to something with a commute at this point. It’d have to be really short for an amazing opportunity.

      Commuting is stressful for me and it takes away from my free time.

    17. ATX*

      I’m guessing 40 minutes is on the long end and 20 on the short end, with no traffic? That’s really not bad. If it’s 40 min on the short end and more with heavy traffic… I wouldn’t do it.

    18. TimeTravlR*

      My current job is really a great job, with a great team. The commute in the morning (leaving at 5 am) is 50 minutes. Coming home is more like 75. A grind, I guess, but worth it! The pay and benefits are outstanding. Would I do it for less? Unfortunately, I have. In my area, the best jobs are in the city, and I am not going to live in the city.
      The move to more WFH has certainly lessened the pain.
      But this decision has to be about you. To me, 4o isn’t so bad!

    19. sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*

      My commute is an hour and ten on a good day. But the pay is very high for my job title and I will have a pension if I stick it out. So, I’m sticking it out. The pension alone is worth it for me.

    20. Imprudence*

      I changed job to reduce my commute from 40mins car to 15 mins bike. I liked the space between work and home, but the travel time was at the wrong time if day for me. School age kids needed chasing out of the house, homework supervised, feeding before evening activities, and it just didn’t work to be travelling at that time.
      Of course they’ve got older now, but I still enjoy my short commute.

    21. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I used to work in the DC area, which has some of the worst traffic in the country. I was lucky enough to live 20 minutes from my office, but when I was at a client location it was often an hour each way. I could do it in my 20s, but I don’t think I’d want to now that I’m over 40.

      I think I’d be more likely to put up with a shift from 20 minutes to 40 minutes, especially if it was a > 10% pay bump.

    22. Dumpster Fire*

      Is it a predictable, stable 40 minutes? If so, I’d be much more likely to consider it; but if there’s a chance that it could (more than “rarely”) be double that, then it’s a hard pass for me. Also, is the 40 minutes due purely to distance or is it because of traffic? If the latter, could you shift your hours to hit lighter traffic? I had a 35-40 minute commute in a previous job that was relatively easy if I left the house by 6 AM, but after 6:15 it turned into an over-an-hour slog.

    23. Karen Zucconi*

      I was thrilled when my commute went from 20ish to no more than 10 minutes. If work parking wasn’t such a big problem, I could go home for lunch! The biggest thing is that there’s no more highway driving for me though because that’s where the traffic jams happen.

    24. Zoe’s mom*

      Commute time is a huge deal to me because that is MY time during the day. Started a new job 1 year ago and part of the reason I took it is it only added 5 extra minutes each way to my 25 minute commute.

    25. Sleepless*

      40 minutes is the top end of what I can tolerate, personally. Five more minutes than that would be close to a deal breaker. I like having a bit of a commute though (my current drive is 25-30 minutes; the worst part is that there are 20 traffic lights, and yes I have counted). It gives me a little time to clear my head and listen to music, and I don’t live near my clients so I don’t run into them when I’m not at work. (I’m a veterinarian, and regular readers learned a few weeks ago what people do with outside-of-work access to their vet.)

    26. Texan In Exile*

      There is pretty much no amount of money that could buy my time after 5:00. I am done. I want to live my life. And my job does not count as my life. It’s how I get health insurance. That’s all.

      1. urban teacher*

        All I care about is how close is a job to my stables. I drive 45 minutes to my stables so any job I take better be on the way. Health insurance and horse money, that’s my job reason.

    27. Cooper*

      I think it depends on the amount extra! I’ve currently got a commute that runs between 40 minutes to an hour. I’ve been at this job for two weeks, and I’m already sick of it. Extra money would help, both because it’s nice compensation for the miserable drive, and also because it’d mean I could more easily justify the cost of a pass for the express lanes when things are REALLY bad.

    28. Weekend Please*

      This is a very personal decision. My longest commute was two hours. My shortest was a ten minute walk. To me, a 40 minute commute would be worth it for a higher salary. I enjoy listening to audiobooks during my commute so spending the time driving or on a train listening to a book is not that different than reading a book at home which is what I would otherwise like to be doing. The two hour commute was way too much though.

    29. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      For me, I don’t mind up to an hour commute if it’s public transportation and I can read or knit or something, but I’m not super keen on an actual driving-in-my-car commute that’s consistently more than about 20-30 minutes, especially if there’s bad traffic or tolls or if parking is expensive or hard to find or or or.

    30. CatCat*

      Huge deal for me. I hate commuting. I won’t consider a job if I am looking at a commute over 30 mins. And even 30 mins will give me pause because I’d prefer it to be under.

    31. Generic Name*

      I used to have an hour plus commute through busy traffic. My next job had a 45 minute commute. When I was looking to move on from that job, I specifically looked for jobs with a 30 min or less commute. My commute now is roughly 20 mins, and it’s a dream. I would think long and hard about doubling my current commute. And if you have kids, yes, the extra time away from home really does matter, because you have to factor in the time it takes to pick them up from school/daycare, and it can really impact your quality of life if you feel like you are always in the car.

    32. Exhausted Trope*

      Commute time for me is a huge issue. Right now mine is 25 minutes and that’s about my limit. I did a 45 minute commute for a bit over a year and it ground my gears so bad. I’d arrive at work already irritable and tired. If there was trouble on the road, the trip could take 90 minutes. I finally moved closer to work to escape. It meant everything to my mental health.

    33. Engineer Woman*

      I’d not only consider the immediate extra money but what about career opportunities? Benefits? Any other upsides or downsides to the new job with longer commute? You need to put a price somehow on these elements and weigh against the longer commute. 40 minutes isn’t terrible. You may or may not like the alone time.

      1. Elenia*

        I have a 30 minute commut and it’s all highway and I love it. I actually really missed it during Covid – not every day, but I like to go at least three times a week. It was my decompress time, my reset time, and my “me” time. I am almost never alone – my work is very social and my husband works from home so he is ALWAYS home, which has been an adjustment.
        But it’s all in how you feel. More than 30 minutes would not be ok.

    34. KK*

      Long commute is my deal-breaker. But sometimes I have crippling anxiety & being boxed-in in traffic is a killer. Plus I live in a climate of wild weather (hurricanes, floods, occasional icy roads) so being far-ish from home and trying to get back in bad weather is another strike.

    35. Msnotmrs*

      I interviewed for a job recently that sounded really interesting, but the two reasons I’m planning on refusing if offered is because 1. It’s an hour commute, and my current commute is 10 min 2. It’s a non-union job at the state level. Which meant that I would have to rearrange my whole life for a job that I could be fired from at any moment. So yes, commute is a big deal for me.

    36. twocents*

      I think it depends what kind of weather you live in. My average commute is about 20-25 minutes but in winter, that can easily blow up to an hour or more. 40 minute commute to me says, in winter, I’m going to be spending literally all day in traffic or at work.

    37. Artemesia*

      This is such an individual thing; some people enjoy a car commute where they can listen to music or books etc — for me it is agony and so we bought a home that allowed short commutes for both of us. This is not possible everywhere, but for us it really was a quality of life issue. We could have got lots more house in the suburbs, but the tradeoff of less space for short commute was worth it.

    38. TWW*

      For me, 40 minutes of heavy traffic and/or stoplights would be unbearable, but 40 minutes of driving on a free-flowing road is enjoyable and relaxing.

    39. library-adjacent worker*

      I’ve had short and long commutes (my shortest job was 7 minutes door to door, longest was 2+hours of standing-room only trains with lots of transfers and unexpected delays). For me it really depends on the kind of commute– The 7 minute commute actually WASN’T my favorite because I was living in a city that wasn’t a great fit for me. If it’s 40 minutes sitting on a quiet train and reading a book I’m pretty cool with it (especially since my lifetime typical commute time has landed more around an hour). If it’s 40 minutes of packed subway stations or driving in really dense/hectic rush hour traffic it’s really not that great and I would probably opt to move closer to work. As I’ve gotten older I’ve gotten a lot more protective of the time and energy I have to spare outside of work, and while there are definitely tradeoffs between personal and professional life quality decisions I think only you can make that call– I also think a sub-ideal commute can be bearable if it is a good career opportunity OR you know it will eventually improve (ie, you are open to moving closer to work, or know that this job is something you’ll probably only do for a few years before advancing into something else).

    40. Cthulhu's Librarian*

      I remember reading a study at one point that said that historically, most people found 30-40 minute commutes acceptable, but there was very little tolerance for longer than that, regardless of their transit method. So, if you mapped out how far from their work people in the Roman Empire lived, and calculated by the predominate method of travel by the area (ie, foot travel in a city, cart travel outside of one), you would find most workers lived within 30-40 minutes of travel of their place of work. Similarly so in the early industrial age, and in modern times.

      Personally, I like at least 25 minutes of travel, to decompress and stop thinking about work before I get home. More than 45 starts to feel like I’m wasting part of my life in a car (audio books help with that, though).

    41. Jj*

      I am the rare person who would rather have a 30 minute commute than a ten. The best is zero, but rarely an option. My ADHD makes transitioning stressful so leaving and arriving somewhere in the same 10 minutes exhausts me. A 20-30 min commute is my sweet spot because I can sink into an audiobook and feel like I had a full experience before transitioning again.

    42. Sorcha*

      I think the manner of commute is as important as the length in many ways. My commute is 40 minutes but it’s 10 minutes walking to the bus stop, 25 minutes on the bus (reading book on Kindle app, checking Twitter, listening to music etc) then a 5 minute walk at the other end. It’s an easy journey, I get fresh air and a chance to stretch my legs, and traffic isn’t an issue.

      If I had to drive 40 minutes each way I don’t think I could handle that.

    43. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      If you like working from home and are productive in that setting, why not look for WFH jobs? I’ve done 90-minute commutes, and I’ve done WFH, and WFH is a thousand times better for me. Your mileage, of course, may vary. :)

    44. anonymath*

      I have a long commute now (26 min when all clear, 45 when it’s normal-icky) and have also been spoiled by WFH. Previously I did bike and bus commuting. It’s not great, it’s not like I love the car commute — but it’s also not as soul-sucking as I’d feared, and the job has allowed me to break into a new field, work with great people, and get promoted twice in the last 2 years. So I think it’s a great trade right now, because the dynamism of the job is important at this stage for me. I also don’t have late hours (so I’m not standing at city bus stops at 10 pm in a relaxed yet prepared position) and I found a great gym near work.

      Spouse was super worried about my commute because spouse would hate it. The deal I made is that I’d work there a year and if I loved it, we’d consider moving closer. Then COVID happened and we went to WFH (we’re essential, being in transportation, but I’m on the tech side so just moved my laptop). So suddenly the commute did not matter. Now it matters again, but is more flexible. If you are able to WFH when there are floods/snowstorms/sports games/whatever causes huge congestion in your area, that’s a very different proposition than “I understand it may take you three hours to get there due to the blizzard but your butt needs to be in that seat.” As a teacher, I really had to be in the classroom to teach in person at a certain time (obviously this was pre-COVID) — as a tech worker, I just have my laptop, no problem, there’s a blizzard I stay home. So, what kind of pressure does your job type put on you?

    45. JelloStapler*

      I commute 40 minutes (oh the joy of when traffic was light during the pandemic when I had to go in) and it’s aggravating but necessary due to where we live in our city. I listen to podcasts and sing along to playlists. But, the job has to either be great or the commute unavoidable. I have considering applying to jobs near me, but the options are few in my industry.

    46. Qwerty*

      – Figure out the range for traffic. Is it 40min during average rush hour or just right now when less people are on the road? How predictable is the traffic? I used to have a commute that would double if I left 5min later than normal, which was difficult to plan around.
      – What is your post-work schedule like? In non-pandemic times, how often do you have to go home before attending an after-work event / dinner reservation / dance recital / etc. How much more stressful will those days get based on traffic on your route?
      – Simplicity of route. If the pandemic hadn’t happened, I was looking to move to a place that would have doubled my commute by moving to the opposite side of my city. But instead of constantly merging and changing expressways, I could just take a single expressway around the city on cruise control and listen to an audio book. I sometimes miss my 30min public transit commute from when I lived in a big city because I would read, knit, use a language app, etc.
      – Evaluate bad weather. Can you work from home if there is snow / ice?

      Once you get past a certain salary where your needs are met, most questions of “is X worth the extra money” usually turn out to be no after the shininess of the new salary wears off. On the other hand, how interesting the job is and how the great the company is can make the trade off better.

    47. Momma Bear*

      At this point in my life – a lot. It also depends on what the commute is like. I had a 50 minute commute on country roads once and I’d take that over 25 minutes of bumper to bumper traffic. A few jobs back I knew that a “good” day to a particular office was going to be an hour so I negotiated a hybrid schedule. Is any continued WFH option available to make the commute less hideous?

      Also, it matters what kind of transit is available. I have off and one commuted by transit over the years, but in recent years our system has deteriorated significantly and I’d rather not be stuck relying on it for anything important. If your mass transit options aren’t bad, it might be a good way to deal with the commute.

    48. Immeuble*

      Does the extra money make it worth it? I guess if you really need the extra money yes it does, but if you don’t it probably wouldn’t be long until you say to yourself ‘Id take a pay cut for a shorter commute’. For me the quality of the commute matters more than the length, 60 mins standing room only is infinitely worse than 60 mins on the freeway. Right now if I were office based I’d have 60 mins each way by car but mostly freeway with the flexibility to set my hours to the best start/finish times to suit my commute. If your employer won’t let you come/leave early/late to minimise the burden of the commute it would get old real quick.

    49. MissDisplaced*

      It matters a lot! Even if the money is good, do you really want to spend 3 hours a day driving?

      Before the pandemic WFH I would spend 2 hours a day commuting (1hour to go approximately 30 miles) in brutal traffic. That amounts to 10 hours a week unpaid time, not to mention gas and bad weather issues. Run the numbers.

    50. RagingADHD*

      Commute time matters, but the scale really depends on what you’re used to. I’ve rarely had a commute under half an hour when I worked in-office. The difference between 20 minutes and 40 minutes wouldn’t seem that significant to me if there were other reasons to prefer the job that was 40 minutes away (like better benefits, more money, etc).

      When the commute time approached an hour, I’d weigh it more significantly. Over an hour, definitely not.

    51. Zephy*

      It’s a factor for sure, but my personal high-water mark was the job where I had a 2 1/2-hour commute on 2 buses to a place that was a 10-minute drive from my front door. I didn’t have a car or a license at that time but the job provided me with a free monthly bus pass, so my partner understandably did not want to get up and drive me to work at butts o’clock in the morning, or pick me up from work in the middle of rush hour, unless it was a true emergency. So, y’know, my current ~35 minutes mostly on the highway is pretty okay.

    52. Windchime*

      To me, 40 minutes in the Seattle area would have been OK if it was in traffic that was moving along reasonably well. It’s the sit-and-wait, stop-and-go nature of a long commute that wears me out. I did a long commute for around 3 years and I finally had just about had enough when we started working remotely. I doubt I would still be there if I had to continue with that sitting in traffic for a couple hours a day.

    53. LifeBeforeCorona*

      I used to have a 40-minute rural commute and for the most part, it was enjoyable. However, over time I hit a deer and few chipmunks. At least once a week a family of turkeys challenged my car and I had to wait them out. Extra care was needed during turtle season because they are very slow so sometimes the commute was a little longer but it was a great way to unwind before getting home.

    54. MacGillicuddy*

      I used to commute by car, it took 25-45 minutes depending on traffic (with the occasional over an hour if there was an accident clogging the roads. But my job had flex hours, so being not-a-morning-person, I timed it to arrive/leave a bit later (this worked except for one horrible boss who attached moral superiority to early mornings and thought “night people” were character-deficient.
      For a different job that required public transportation (because parking costs were prohibitive) the commute was awful. Multiple trains and a bus (or a long walk to the first train). And the worst part was not being able to run errands on the way to and from work. Trains and bus were too crowded for reading, recorded books, etc. I felt like I had to be always aware of my surrounding. The commute was a total waste of 2 hours a day.

      When my kids were younger, the car commute was a consideration, both for pickup/drop off and for things like school events I wanted to attend (luckily I had flexibility except for the previously mentioned boss-from-hell). So 20-30 minutes was ok, but not more than that.

      I would get calls from recruiters who were clearly getting their “commute time” from the internet, because they don’t know the area (greater Boston). Their numbers typically represented two-thirds to a half of the actual time.

    55. A Social Worker*

      This is such a personal thing and many others have pointed out the various factors to think about. For me, 40 minutes wouldn’t have been too much but now that I have a child I see every minute of my commute as time not spent with him (I work long hours to begin with). So at this point of my life, it wouldn’t be worth it.

    56. RussianInTexas*

      40 minutes is basically a norm where I live. If you can get it below – you win a lottery basically.

    57. Miss Betty*

      It matters more now than it did 20-30 years ago and more now after working from home for a year. I’m nearer 60 than 50 and as much as it pains me to admit it, I’m not as comfortable driving in bad weather as I was when I was younger. My 20-30 minute commute (which can extend to an hour or more if the weather’s extremely bad – I live in a farm town and work in the nearest largish city) is still doable but I didn’t miss the winter commute one little bit. My department is arguing for continued WFH (because our work is all done over the internet and email anyway so working remotely made literally no difference) and avoiding the winter commute, while not one of the arguments I’m using, since they want business reasons, is one of my biggest reasons for wanting to continue. In my 20s and 30s, winter driving didn’t stop me from getting where I wanted to go, it was nothing. Not so much anymore! It would be a big consideration if I were changing jobs. (Also – I’ve lived in the country and in very big cities. A one hour commute on the highway is a completely different thing than an hour commute on a jammed freeway, which would’ve been a deal breaker even when I was younger.)

    58. Quiet Liberal*

      My SO did a 45 minute one-way commute (>hour on bad weather days) for about six years. He liked the drive home most of the time because he could decompress from the day during that time and arrive home not as stressed. However, we went through many sets of tires and a couple of cars during that time. It wasn’t ideal cost wise.

    59. meyer lemon*

      For me, quality of commute is at least as much of a factor as the time. If it’s a walk, bike ride or quiet bus ride with no transfers, the extra time wouldn’t bother me too much. But if it’s gridlocked traffic or a bus crammed full of commuters or multiple transfers, that wears me down pretty fast.

    60. Nella9*

      I recently moved and switched jobs and so I went from a 30 minute commute to an hour commute. I honestly don’t mind because it had been 30 minutes sitting in very frustrating traffic, vs. now it’s a longer drive, but I’m driving the whole time and am almost never in any kind of traffic. I use the time to come down from the day and listen to audiobooks. For me, the traffic matters more than the length of time. I prefer what I’m doing now because ultimately it is less stressful. I couldn’t do an hour in terrible traffic, but a long drive without it feels fine.

    61. Girasol*

      I did 45 a.m., 75 p.m. for ten years (except when it was snowy, and then it would be upward of 2 hours each way.) Perhaps if the employer was okay with 8 hour days that might have been okay, but they hinted broadly that if you were a good employee you would work 10-12 hours. With that and the commute I felt like I was going all the way across town just to make supper, pack breakfasts and lunches, and dive into bed for not enough sleep before jumping up to shower and do it all again. I’m not sure more pay would really replace what you lose living like that.

    62. Dancing Otter*

      It makes such a difference what KIND of commute it is. I once worked upstairs from the downtown train station, on a very reliable transit line. I lived maybe 15 minutes from my home station. The 50 minute train ride was fine 98% of the time. (Someone jumped in front of the train, twice in ten years. Someone set fire to the railroad bridge once. A train broke down, blocking the tracks, about once a year. Weather happens, but trains get through better than cars.) Working really late could be problematic, since service was reduced after 7:30 and nonexistent after midnight.

      Then I changed jobs and the clients mostly weren’t convenient to the train. Chicago has two seasons for commuters: snow and construction. Sometimes they overlap.
      I ended up moving to be closer to the suburban clients. I’ve driven downtown for meetings often enough to know that there is no conceivable amount of money that would induce me to do it every day.

    63. CW*

      Pre-COVID, 1.5 hours for me, with traffic. I don’t even know how I managed to tolerated it. It was 32,000 miles on my car per year, plus oil change every 1.5 months (every 5ooo miles). I had to fill the gas every other day, and then there was even a bridge toll I had to pay. how Then COVID hit, and I now WFH permanently 4 days a week, going in on Fridays only. I might not even have to go in on Fridays sooner or later by how things are looking at my job. It has greatly improved my quality of life. More time to exercise, watch TV, catch sports that would be on at 4pm, get more evening chores done. Plus, I don’t have to get up at 5am every weekday anymore. Extra sleep has help my health greatly.

      Granted, I started my job in August 2019, so it wasn’t that long before everything changed. I actually planned on moving closer to work, but WFH changed my plans so I wouldn’t have to.

    64. Kaylin Neya*

      I have worked commutes from 5 minutes away to 1 hour away (more if traffic was awful – and it frequently was). My commute limit is 45 minutes each way (personally). I’ve found as I’ve gotten a little older (in my 30’s) that I care much less about commute time than I do about the actual job. And by actual job I mean: do I like what I do, how are my co-workers/managers, corporate atmosphere, do I feel appreciated (I.e. do I actually enjoy my job). If I love/enjoy my job, then I’d rather commute than work at a job that was just ok (or had other issues). Money matters some for me, but only to the extent that I feel that I am being properly and fairly compensated. I like listening to books via Audible, so the drive is usually a nice time for me and allows me to wake up/decompress. (Note: I have 3 kids at home if it makes a difference. Also, I usually work full time, but it’s a 4 day work week – or 3 day depending on my job.)

    65. Vermont Green*

      One factor that can guide you is doing the math. Consider that your commute time is part of your actual job, and calculate your hourly wage taking it into consideration. So if you make $200 a day for eight hours and no commute, you are making $25 for every hour of your time. If you have an hour commute each way, no matter how pleasant, then you are making $20 an hour—your true hourly wage.

    66. tamarack and fireweed*

      It depends on the whole package of circumstances for me. Back a long time ago when I lived in $BIG_FRENCH_CITY, I rarely worked for the same employer or at the same site for very long,, so I spent often more than an hour in public transport to get where I needed to. OTOH, I studied for exams I was taking on the side of full-time employment during that time, so I got some of it back. Then in $BIG_UK_CITY, I actually moved into a shared place 15 min on foot (or 5 min by bike, or 1 bus stop) from my work after I had found a pretty good job where I stayed for a few years. That was great, but I wanted my own apartment, and the neighborhood was too expensive for that, so I moved to a ~20 min by bike / 25 min by public transport place, which was fine. Then my work’s office moved to the outer suburbs! Luckily vaguely in the direction where I was living now, so it could have been worse, but I now was about 30 min by bike / 45 min by public transport. Not great.

      Then I moved to a sparsely populated area of North America, and now I work for a university and live 30 miles outside the college town. I love everything about where I live, except the commute. WFH did give me significant time back which I used for daily musical instrument practice for example. Fewer audiobooks than when I’m driving into the office, more reading text. We’ll see how it shakes out in the upcoming months.

    67. Cj*

      I went from 20 minutes to 40 minutes and I don’t really mind. In both cases it’s all 65 mile-an-hour Highway, not stop and go traffic. that would drive me nuts.

  2. Tech Writing, UI, Training*

    Very field-specific question: I’m a technical writer with some UI experience. Many job ads these days want a combo of these skills, as well as some corporate training experience. I spent several years as a public school teacher, and still maintain my state certification. I’m trying to decide if including that info would help or harm.

    I do have the experience of leading a classroom of 30+ students, but I hated every second of it, and don’t want to be trapped in a corporate training role. I’m specifically looking at tech writing and UI positions, but many job descriptions are murky about the separation among those three roles. I have the skills, but I’m scared of being pigeon-holed.

    Include or withhold my teaching experience?

    1. ferrina*

      Depends how it would look on your resume. If not including it would leave a weird gap, include it. If it wouldn’t (like the teaching was 10+ years ago and you are only including recent positions)…meh, either way.

      I think the key will be in the interviews. Really take the chance to question the company and understand how much training will be in the role. Be clear with them- you’ve been there, done that, and know that it’s not for you, so if that’s going to be a core part of this job, then this job won’t be a match for you.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Were you teaching elementary or secondary students? Secondary would be much more useful.

    3. Bad at Math MBA*

      Interesting– I’m not sure what kind of companies you’re looking at, but UX writing where I work (a large tech company) is its own function and doesn’t involve training. Unless there’s something very clear in the job description that includes training, I’d leave it off.

      1. Putting the "pro" in "procrastinate"*

        Same at my company, a medium-large software company. There’s documentation, UX, and training — all separate groups who might occasionally have cross-team collaborations but do not take on one another’s roles. And as a person who hires technical writers (for the documentation group!) I can say that seeing teaching experience on a resume is definitely a plus.

    4. Lyudie*

      Do they mean delivering the training or creating it? Often those are different roles (I am on the creation side as an instructional designer). I came to it from tech writing and found a lot of transferable skills and knowledge…I am still organization and delivering technical content in a user-friendly way, but I have different tools at my disposal. If it is not delivering the training, they still might see it as a bonus because you were creating lesson plans and curricula and deciding how best to deliver the information.

    5. Former Trainer*

      Yes! Include your teaching experience. I hired Trainers for many years and MANY people said they would love training – until they had to do it all day. So I looked for people who had experience and enjoyed the “grind.” I do Instructional Design work now and many job descriptions ask for training experiences – it has mainly been for Train the Trainer or managing working with a lot SMEs.

    6. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      Totally include it! AND broaden your reach and see if you can’t pick up a gig as an instructional designer or technology trainer.

    7. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I’d include the teaching experience but probably not the part about maintaining your certification, as the hiring manager that would make me wonder “are they likely to jump ship back into teaching” etc.

    8. TWW*

      The job title “technical writer” can be applied to a huge variety of duties and qualifications, and for any job posting, you may have to read between the lines to figure out what the role entails.

      In my recent job search, I immediately ruled out about 80% of “tech writer” postings, because it was apparent I was not the kind of tech writer they were looking for. It was a little painful because it left me with only a few jobs to apply for, but ultimately it was a successful strategy.

      My advice: if you do not not enjoy corporate training, do not apply for a job that includes that.

      If you do apply for such a job, I don’t think hiding your school teaching experience will help you avoid training assignments. If you designed the UI and/or wrote the help system, that alone will make you the obvious choice for training users.

      1. Working Hypothesis*

        Pretty much this. You don’t need to hide your teaching experience in order to avoid jobs which includes a training component. Just treat it like anything else you would consider a sign of poor fit with a company (for example, a chaotic office environment, or a micromanaging boss, or a lack of work/life balance, or whatever else you don’t want in your next position), and interview to find out whether each company has the things you don’t want, or doesn’t have them. Shouldn’t be that hard to find out exactly what the components of your prospective job are — how much is tech writing, how much is UI, etc — and whether there’s any training involved at all.

    9. Qwerty*

      I would include it and explain how it makes you better at writing and UI. I’m betting understanding *how* people learn best helps you create documentation that explains things better and design UIs that are more intuitive. During the interview, ask what percentage of the job is corporate teaching. You could even spin it to you advantage! Something like you have experience teaching but did not enjoy it so you try to craft high quality materials that don’t require a formal training session.

      1. Fran Fine*

        This is good advice, especially the part about making it very clear upfront that you don’t have any desire to be a corporate trainer. Honestly, what you wrote was probably the rationale for why the company even mentioned teaching experience in the first place. If you’ve had formal teaching experience in the past, one assumes you know the various ways people learn and can take that knowledge and apply it to various types of instructional aides or online tools.

    10. Anhaga*

      I’m going to add another vote for “look for instructional design positions” if you haven’t already checked that out. That was the field I was trying to break into (leaving 17 years in higher ed) before I got turned in my current direction (digital accessibility), and my husband, also previous higher ed, is now in an instructional design position that he loves. It involves many of the skills required for technical writing, UI work, and the kind of curriculum design work you would have done as a teacher. If you find the right company, ID work as awesome. And many places looking for IDs are looking for people with teaching experience since there are a lot of things about curriculum and course design that you just don’t really get until you teach (even if you didn’t like teaching!).

    11. Likafire*

      I’m a technical writer with a background in higher ed, working for a Bay Area-based tech company. Like other commenters have said, at my company training and tech writing are two very different roles handled by different departments, so there isn’t any overlap. It may be that you just have to be pickier about the types of roles you’re applying for. Still, I think my experience in adult education was helpful in demonstrating to the hiring committee that I knew how to communicate concepts to adult learners effectively. If it were me, I’d include the teaching experience, but leave off the certification.

  3. Anonymous Educator*

    Anyone have co-workers who totally have easy access to vaccines but whose employer is not mandating employees get vaccinated before returning to the office in person? How are you dealing with that?

    1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      I’m a little stressed because it’s not mandated and the anti vaxxers in the office are kicking up a fuss since they are giving out incentives. I’m vaccinated, but too much spread could have a bad outcome.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        I don’t have to go in the office, but our workers often go into homes or residential treatment, and some people are sick- like one of my parents has cancer. That’s also why I continue to mask.

        1. Artemesia*

          I don’t understand a business that serves vulnerable people and doesn’t require vaccination. They can literally kill someone. I have an acquaintance who has a form of leukemia that is under control with treatment and he has a fair life expectancy — in years not months. BUT although vaccinated he shows no antibodies; he is immune compromised and has one of the conditions that makes vaccination ineffective. I am sure that is true of many of the cancer patients you serve. What kind of moral monster thinks they should be able to work with vulnerable people but not get vaccinated for flu and COVID?

          1. A Social Worker*

            From what I understand, my agency is not mandating it due to it only being authorized for emergency use. I think once it is fully approved it will be mandated, and I can’t wait.

    2. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I’m in a conservative southern state and this sounds like the norm in my area. In fact, I don’t know of any businesses around here that are mandating employees get vaccinated, although there are a handful that are mandating either a vaccine or continued mask wearing.

      I’m vaccinated but still wearing my mask. I’m not really sure what else I can do.

      1. pancakes*

        It’s not confined to southern states – there’s an article about Wisconsin in the Guardian today, which is apparently representative of many states in terms of huge disparities at the county level. Some counties, over 60% of people are vaccinated, and in others it’s closer to 20%.

        1. Kimmy Schmidt*

          Oh no, I didn’t mean to suggest otherwise. In my opinion, it’s more likely a rural-urban divide than a geographical one. I just meant to give some background info about my locale.

        2. SomebodyElse*

          That article is sort of cherry picking data out of the state numbers. So I’d advise anyone reading to look at the data links.

          1. pancakes*

            Any summary or analysis of data is going to require numerous choices about what to include and what to leave out. If there’s something in the article you think is misleading, surely it would make more sense to specify what it is rather than suggest people review all of the many links in it?

            1. SomebodyElse*

              No problem… the article made reference to voting patterns for some of the counties that either had a high or low vaccination rate, they however left out instances (significant ones) that pointed in the opposite direction of the ones they sited.

              So in other words the article cited:
              County A voted predominately Orange in the last election and had a low vaccination rate
              County B voted predominately Purple in the last election and had a high vaccination rate

              But failed to mention
              County C voted predominately Orange in the last election and had a high vaccination rate
              County D voted predominately Purple in the last election and had a low vaccination rate

              If you only read the article, you are going to draw one conclusion, but if you look into the data it pretty much draws no obvious conclusion between Orange/Purple voting patterns and high/low vaccination rates.

              1. pancakes*

                I see. I don’t think anyone reading the article with care would be drawn to that one conclusion, though, because the article itself gives reasons not to. It talks about the Amish and Mennonite populations in certain counties having an impact on the vaccination rate, for example, and links to local public radio coverage of that topic:

                “Not everybody who is vaccine-hesitant is driven by political beliefs. . . . Clark county is also home to an Amish and Mennonite population of several thousand, groups sometimes referred to as ‘Plain People’ for their choice not to embrace modern dress and technology. Generally, Amish decline vaccines and Mennonites accept only some. Neither has been open to Covid vaccines, Wisconsin Public Radio reported.”

      2. Cilantro & Lime*

        Not especially helpful, but a happy ending dealing with this dilemma:

        At my small office, we were all clambering for our vaccine– with one exception. We all sort of tiptoed around her at the risk of offending. And then on the day, miraculously, we all got an ‘in’ at a vaccination site from a coworker’s contact (the clinic had extra doses that would otherwise go to waste), so everyone except for the holdout went for it. When she realized she was the only one who hadn’t jumped at the chance, and her own doctors strongly urged her to get the vaccine, she finally went for it. Everyone in my office is now fully vaccinated, hooray! I’m so glad we don’t have any extreme anti-vaxxers among us.

      3. Applesauced*

        I’m in Texas and our office is about fully 70% vaccinated.
        We are part of a larger company that just said as we slowly open offices (at 25% capacity, then 50%, etc) only vaccinated staff can enter the office.

        Vaccination is not mandatory, and reporting is optional, but if you don’t prove that you got your shots you can’t work in person. I don’t know how that will change once everyone is expected back in the office.

    3. R*

      I have expressed my concern about exactly this to my boss. She told me whatever the CDC says goes. Personally, I will continue to wear a mask indoors until everyone in my home is vaccinated, which is going to take a while because we have a kid.

    4. Jake*

      Our office requires a mask AND social distancing for unvacinated folks.

      Vaccinated folks don’t have to do either.

      1. t-vex*

        That’s where we’re going at my (southern) company too. Over 90% of staff are fully vaccinated and can opt out of masking but if staff who choose not to get vaccinated are required to continue with all the precautions we’ve been taking all along.

        1. Artemesia*

          Given the resistance to well confirmed proof data bases e.g. vaccine passports, how will anything be enforced? Our local stores now only require masks for the unvaccinated — but we know the unvaccinated are liars and irrational — so I assume the people I am seeing without masks are unvaccinated and perhaps breeding vaccine resistant viruses. So in stores I still wear my mask.

          1. Old and Don’t Care*

            It probably won’t be well enforced. Many, many things in our society depend on a high level of voluntary compliance, and that’s where we’ll end up.

            I’ve been vaccinated and generally don’t wear a mask where it’s not required. I’m neither a liar nor irrational.

          2. Jules the 3rd*

            Schroedinger’s COVID Stranger: We don’t *know* if the unmasked are vaxd or anti-vax anymore, so it’s safest to assume they’re unvaxd.

            1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

              Yes. I’d be happy to wear a copy of my vaccine like a work badge. But the anti-vaxxers are also the anti-proofers. It’s nuts. How are they about mandatory vaccines for their children in order to attend school? Do they politicize that, too?

      2. Is it tea time yet?*

        As of June 1, vaccinated people at my temp job can go maskless. I had my second dose early April, but am unsure what I’ll do. My teen got his first shot a week and a half ago, so my inclination is to wait until after his second dose. Plus, only half of the people in my area are vaccinated, and the holdouts are very vaccine-resistant. The company has offered company swag to vaccinated workers, and will be doing drawings for apple watches and gift cards too.

    5. ThatGirl*

      On a personal level I’m not toooo worried about it, my workplace is strongly encouraging vaccines but haven’t mandated it. They are allowing people to (voluntarily, privately) submit their attestation of vaccination (dates, which brand) and then stop wearing a mask in the office. But coming back is still optional.

    6. Maggie*

      We are not mandating vaccines (I really haven’t heard of anywhere that is aside from colleges) but masks are still required because we work with the public and they want to keep masking for now. Though there’s only like 6 people here and we all have discussed being vaccinated though (I guess someone could lie, but I doubt it).

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        My (very large healthcare) employer will be announcing next week a vaccine mandate with only medical exemptions, similar to the way we mandate flu vaccines. Our county mask mandate is ending in a couple weeks in general, but will still apply to healthcare facilities and a couple other specific types of places. (Weirdly, my friend’s college has decided NOT to mandate vaccines.)

        1. RabbitRabbit*

          I’m hoping mine will do the same, but yes, my hospital doesn’t currently mandate COVID vaccination. However, mask-wearing is still enforced (healthcare setting), and among employees we passed the 80% vaccination mark quite a while ago, so that’s promising. I’m assuming similar will happen for us, maybe after FDA approval of one of them. We do mandate flu vaccination or (with medical excuse) masking when engaging in patient care/contact.

    7. Alice*

      Quick update regarding my notice period. I’ve negotiated with my company and in the end my notice is 4 weeks. Thank you to the commenters who offered advice — unfortunately it turns out that my manager wants to make it look like I was doing important job, for some internal politics game. In truth I’ve got nothing to do and I will twiddle my thumbs for the next 2 weeks, as I’ve finished wrapping up everything on Tuesday. But at least I can twiddle my thumbs with a clear conscience.

      The bright spot is I’ve also negotiated working from home for 2 days a week, and I’m looking forward to being fully remote in my next position. My current employer made us return to the office last summer and they’re not enforcing masks, so my mental health hasn’t been good in the past few months. Looking forward to a fresh start.

      2. vlookup*

        If your company wants to pay you to work out a long notice period but you have nothing to do, IMO you can in good conscience goof off as much as you can get away with for the rest of your time there.

    8. Mr. Cajun2core*

      My employer is the same way. In fact, it is requiring that people return. However, vaccinated people do not have to wear a mask where unvaccinated do have to wear a mask. All people have to social distance of 3 ft. If you are vaccinated you can wear a mask or not.

      1. FedUp*

        Are they requiring proof that you have been vaccinated in order to shed the mask? or is it “honor system”? (Which I think is a total joke)

    9. Josephine Beth NotAmy*

      My employer has done a great job of making vaccines available, and about 90% of our staff is vaccinated. Some of the hold-outs aren’t anti-vaxx so much as vaccine-hesitant, which I find slightly more understandable. Because we work directly with families and can’t ask their vaccine status, our policy is basically to act as if everyone we interact with is unvaccinated. I’m completely fine with that, since my college-age kiddo is likely not fully protected by her vaccine due to immunosuppression.

    10. Generic Name*

      I’m fully vaccinated, so I guess I’m not worrying about it? It does help that my company mandates that if you are not fully vaccinated, or don’t want to disclose that you are fully vaccinated, you must wear a mask in common areas and cannot share an office unmasked.

      1. TWW*

        Same. As a vaccinated person I know the risk isn’t zero, but for me, small risks aren’t worth worrying about.

        Reducing stress (for instance, by letting go of things I can’t control) has known benefits, which I think probably outweigh any benefits that would result from my trying to deal the the problem of unvaccinated coworkers.

    11. EarthBound*

      I work in the public sector and we are reopening fully to the public next week–albeit with maks for everyone (citizens and employees regardless of vaccination status). Many of us have been eligible for vaccines since late February. Some of our employees have been complaining about how they feel at risk now. My question is always, “Have you been vaccinated?” None of them has and only one had a medical issue that would prevent vaccination. These are, not surprisingly, the same people who did not take COVID restrictions seriously. A handful of these folks have had to quarantine multiple times because of risky behavior outside of work. And they still aren’t vaccinated!

      I am fully vaccinated and I don’t feel particularly at risk anymore. The only workers I feel bad for are the few who can’t be vaccinated due to a medical issue.

      1. SomebodyElse*

        “only one had a medical issue that would prevent vaccination.”

        That you know of, that is. Perhaps the ones that are worried do have a medical condition that they just don’t want to broadcast. That would be more in line with being worried about being at risk than not taking restrictions seriously but suddenly is concerned about risk… that bit doesn’t make too much sense.

    12. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      Here is another place where WFH makes all kinds of sense (provided it’s reasonable for your job, of course). I am vaccinated and I don’t care what my colleagues do.

    13. JG Obscura*

      My employer isn’t requiring vaccination, but they still have mandatory “check-in” procedures, even as states relax their laws. Everyone who comes in the building has their temperature scanned and asked if they have any symptoms.
      Mask-wearing is still “required”, but it’s much more lax now about wearing them properly. People have their noses out ALL THE TIME. Which is not great, but then there are people blatantly wearing theirs below their chin and I don’t work in close enough proximity or know them well enough to call them out. Like yeah, they *could* be fully vaccinated so itd be fine, but the type of people who refuse to get vaccinated are also the type who would lie and say they were.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        It’s one thing not to get vaxd, but if I found out someone wasn’t and lied saying they were, I would consider that a fireable offense. That is despicable. (And yeah, I hate the people who get bit in zombie movies and don’t tell, too)

      2. Generic Name*

        Yeah, the lying about being fully vaccinated is super sucky. My company isn’t mandating vaccines, but if you want to go about maskless, you must be fully vaccinated and be able to offer proof if asked. If you don’t want to have to show proof, you must wear a mask. Plus, just about everyone can work from home for as long as they want (including forever). I think my company’s policy is very reasonable.

    14. Jules the 3rd*

      It all depends. I am pro-vax, vaccinated, and have all my family vaccinated, so I do have some bias, but here’s how I break it down:

      – I have a lot of compassion for BIPOC who are vaccine hesitant because of the legit concerns about Black people’s treatment by health providers (Tuskeegee; Henrietta Lacks; Black mom mortality; vaccine-derived polio in Africa). I will engage once if it comes up, explaining my experience and my family’s (7 vaxd, 1 w/3 days of side effects, 2 a little tired, 4 nothing we noticed), and the safety of mRNA vaxs, and then I move on, no judgement.
      – I have a tiny bit of compassion for people who are generally anti-vax / have been for years. I *may* explain my fam’s experience if they seem to waffle, but will mostly avoid.
      – I have no compassion left for COVID deniers. If it comes up, I change the subject or leave.

      If I had to work with unvaxxed, if I had vulnerable family members I’d wear a mask at work until my fam was vaxd. I might wear it longer as a symbol, and because that India variant’s pretty scary. I’d certainly ask for plexi if we were in cubicles, and for WFH options. I’d also ask how facilities is working on ventilation, since we now know that COVID is mostly airborne and that good ventilation and filtration can help reduce spread. (There’s a couple of recent articles you can print out and take to mgmt). But I would not try to convince anyone at work, it’s all gone too far for that.

      1. pancakes*

        Pew Research found that the demographic least likely to get vaccinated is white evangelicals. Whether any of us individually feel compassion toward anti-vax people seems entirely beside the point of whether and to what extent they jeopardize public health initiatives.

      2. Database Developer Dude*

        I’m vaxxed, but to prevent spreading to immunocompromised people in my circle, I continue to mask. I dread the day “don’t have to” turns into “not allowed to” regarding mask policy.

        1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

          I read today about a restaurant, I think in California, that will be adding a surcharge to customers who wear masks. I feel bad for the employees, but that’s one restaurant I hope goes out of business very soon.

          2. Database Developer Dude*

            If you think people who didn’t want to wear masks behaved badly, just you wait until a place near where I live decides they want to do this. It will be epic.

    15. Momma Bear*

      Our employer is highly encouraging vaccines and the guideline right now is if you are not vaccinated (for whatever reason – I know a few folks who can’t be per their doctors), they should continue to mask up around people. It’s an honor system, though, so many of us are still wearing masks, vaccinated or not. I deal with it by wearing a mask because that is what makes me most comfortable.

    16. ampersand*

      Yep. I haven’t had to deal with it just yet—currently WFH—but I’m about to refuse to go back to work. I’m not sure how this is going to go. Our governor just made it illegal for state agencies/schools to ask about vaccine status, require masks, or enforce social distancing. I’m sorry, I can’t pretend there’s no pandemic.

      2. Fran Fine*

        I’m sorry, I can’t pretend there’s no pandemic.

        I feel this and sympathize with you. This whole situation is incredibly frustrating – hopefully, you and your employer can figure out a way for you to continue working from home for the foreseeable future.

    17. LifeBeforeCorona*

      We were strongly encouraged to get vaccinated because of our client base. I have friends with a child doing chemo and being vaccinated means that if needed I can help with groceries, child care, cleaning etc without causing the parents extra anxiety.

    18. Amtelope*

      I’m fully vaccinated and my entire household is fully vaccinated, so I’m OK with the slight chance of someone at work being unvaccinated AND having Covid AND being close enough to me for long enough to expose me. I’m pretty sure that everyone on the team I work with directly is vaccinated (we’ve been giving one another a heads-up on Slack when we’re away from our keyboards, so I’ve seen all the “going to get my first/second shot!” posts. That’s enough for me at this point. It helps that we don’t work either in close quarters or the public; I don’t feel particularly unsafe just being in the building with unvaxxed people now that everyone in my house is fully vaccinated.

    19. Carol*

      My employer, thankfully, is requiring them, and I would be hesitant to go back in person if not, because of a young kid.

      Unfortunately, we discovered our day care had multiple teachers refusing the vaccine (after multiple quarantines and COVID cases…sigh), and we actually finally switched day cares because of this. The new place doesn’t have a mandate but encourages it and offers an incentive, and has a pretty high rate of compliance.

      1. FedUp*

        I 100% would pull my child for this reason. I hope you told them exactly why you left.

    20. Not your decision*

      I think whether or not I get a vaccine is between me and my doctor only. My HR, coworkers, or who have you is not qualified to have any input on my medical situation. I find it highly alarming that people blithely think it’s just fine to do so.

      1. pancakes*

        I think there’s a big difference between an employer collecting information (e.g. “approximately 70% of our employees are vaccinated, which puts us in a good position to ask people to come back into the office”) and an employer having input in an individual’s decision to get vaccinated or not.

      2. FedUp*

        Are you OK with being told you cannot return to the office, or you must continue to wear a mask in the office if you do not care to share your vaccination status? It certainly is your right to decide whether or not you want to get vaccinated, but I think your co-workers also have the right to not be around people who are un-vaxxed/un-masked.

    21. mreasy*

      I don’t know anyone whose job is requiring vaccination before returning, and I’m in NYC. I am frustrated that my office is adopting an “honor policy” in letting employees go without a mask if they’re vaccinated – and not checking. But I am very fortunate in not being required to go back FT for some time still.

      1. FedUp*

        The honor system is such a joke – because we know that the same people who refuse to vaccinate are the same people who have scoffed at masks all along. If an employer does not want to require that employees get vaccinated, fine. But then they sure as heck should make sure they keep their damn mask on. I know pre-COVID some healthcare facilities would do that with the flu shot – got the jab, you could go mask-free; no jab = mask required at all times (and employee ID indicated who had to wear a mask).

  4. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    I’m doing a bit better lately, but I inadvertently worried my boss. I said I hadn’t gotten much sleep one day and didn’t get a lot of work done and she was really concerned. I’m now confused since insomnia is a common thing. I also recently had a doctor note that I have ADHD and I’m trying new medication. I haven’t told my boss the extent of my struggles since I don’t want to worry her, but maybe I should?

    1. IL JimP*

      she was likely concerned that you might turn into a performance management concern, you don’t have to go into too much details with her but a big picture convo about having a health issue that you are working with a doctor to resolve might help put it into perspective

      but that will depend on what you know about your boss and how she reacts to things like this

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        That’s true. I did mention I was going to the doctor but did not mention ” due to embarrassing mental health conditions “

    2. ecnaseener*

      You didn’t sleep much ONCE and she was really concerned?? That’s bizarre, nobody has great sleep all the time. Maybe she was just trying to sound sympathetic, not so much worried.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Yeah, if it were a regular thing that would be one thing, but everyone has nights they don’t sleep well.

      2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        She was like tell me when this happens so we can shift your schedule around, but the truth is that like maybe once in two weeks I’ll have no luck sleeping and I just go ” ugh”

        1. ecnaseener*

          Ok, maybe she was just trying to be helpful and tell you it’s ok to call out sick when you get no sleep at all.

          1. JelloStapler*

            I agree, it sounds like she is concerned and wants to see if she can help. My colleagues have expressed concern for each other when someone says they didn’t sleep well.

            1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

              That’s true. I tend to try to power through because I usually don’t know if I’ll get any work done or not until 10 o clock.

    3. Cooper*

      I wouldn’t tell her exactly what’s happening if you don’t need to! If she asks again, I’d just tell her that you’ve got a medication that causes occasional insomnia, but it’s nothing to worry about. It’s such a common side effect that I can’t imagine anyone would be that weird about it!

      (Honestly, getting concerned at all is weird! I feel like it’s pretty common for people to come into work and say “Ah, man, I’m beat, I was up super late last night watching the sportsball game!”)

      1. Joan Rivers*

        Is it NOT “weird” to tell your boss you didn’t get much done cause you didn’t sleep well one night? Boss is responding to what’s said. I’d be concerned if someone thought it was important to tell me that.

        1. Cooper*

          I guess I’d expect concern if it was a reoccurring thing that I was dealing with, but one night of “eh, didn’t sleep well” doesn’t seem too unusual or worthy of concern!

        2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

          Eh I just don’t know what to say a lot of the time or whether it’s weird or not. This is why I totally dread talking about myself. Lol.

          1. comityoferrors*

            I don’t think it’s weird at all to mention that! You don’t really need to report to your boss that you had a less productive day (unless there are deadlines and you need support meeting them, which is what you would focus on in that conversation), but my reports tell me stuff like that all the time and it’s fine. It’s also incredibly normal to mention sleeping poorly or running into traffic in the morning or whatever mundane Life Stuff throws you off your game. I would guess that your boss is just trying to be supportive and potentially missing the mark a smidge.

            1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

              Yea she was asking about the end of the month deadlines and I was like eh, I can get them in but I had a bad day yesterday

    4. VI Guy*

      I almost wonder if she has occasional insomnia and is reacting so strongly out of empathy to try and help you out.

      I wouldn’t give her any details about mental health stuff, but if she can help you then discuss it. I knew someone who took medication with insomnia as a side effect, and the workplace let her start work an hour later when she didn’t sleep well. There are sometimes options.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        The actual truth is that someone had a stroke- so she was just concerned about everyone’s health in general. Sometimes people do have stress insomnia so she might have thought the job was getting to me

    5. hamburke*

      I occasionally have trouble sleeping – 1-2 nights at a time and only a few times a year. I do tell my boss, have her double check anything that’s going to clients, and usually leave early. She’s always concerned when this happens but since it’s an occasional thing, she wanted me to take care of myself as the work would be there when I got back or she wanted to know if anything needed to be covered. Her husband had a health scare recently and I covered her work while she was tending to him – it goes both ways!

  5. Kini*

    What to do when you work for a super anti-mask boss? We all went back into the office at full capacity this week, it’s a small company of only 15 people and my boss is the owner. Masks are no longer required in my state. I am fully vaccinated but still like to wear them. Unfortunately, my boss has always been very anti-mask. The problem is that he not only allowed us all to go in maskless, but the other day he started saying he “does not appreciate masks in his presence” and wants to ban them from the office. I am one of 3 people who actually wore them at work this week, and we were each brought into his office where he went on a tangent on why he finds my mask offensive to him, and that masks will be no longer welcome in his business (his words).

    His reasons are ridiculous, but he said “they make me appear less trustworthy or like I’m sick, and only sick people wear masks”, and more claims I won’t get into. He believes there is no more covid and no risk to any of us anymore. Unfortunately, my only options here seem to be either accept that I am no longer allowed to wear a mask at work, or quit and find a new job (not always easy in my field and area). But is there anything else I can do? Does he have the right to ban them in his business? He does own the building.

    1. SomebodyElse*

      I guess he could make it disallowed by dress code, so yeah he could outright ban them.

    2. My Brain Is Exploding*

      This is a very interesting question and I’m hoping that Alison will chime in.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’m pretty sure he can do that, and even if it turns out it’s illegal… what’s the upside for you? You tell him he’s breaking the law, you insist on wearing a mask, and he punishes you for it. He’s already shown he’s irrational and not particularly intelligent. IMHO, you’ve got to either get out, or accept the situation as it is without poking the crazy with a stick.

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        +1

        But if you and all your family are vaxd, the mask is mostly for your comfort right now. Maybe keep one around for wearing, and check for other ways to increase your comfort (ie, distance, ventilation, wfh).

        Your boss is a jerk and isn’t going to change. How much jerk can you live with? Might be worth throwing the resume out to test the waters.

        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          Not necessarily. What if someone is on immunosuppressant meds? Or sick with a different illness? Or caring for someone at high risk.

          I hope masks stay around so I stop catching the flu from the same person at work.

      3. Fran Fine*

        + 1 to your last sentence because those are the only options here, sadly. Your boss is a lunatic, OP.

    5. NJ Anon*

      Does your state have guidelines around this? I live in NJ and employers cannot make you remove a mask at work.

      1. Kini*

        I’m not sure, I think if I were immunocompromised maybe? I’m not, I just don’t trust my coworkers to get vaccinated and variants are out there. If I told my boss I have a medical reason to wear masks, maybe he would believe me and have to let me wear it. But he might retaliate against me unfortunately. He’s trying to force us all to act like everything is normal again and I would then be in the way of whatever he thinks he will achieve.

        1. pancakes*

          Check on your state’s rules on this in the meantime. It shouldn’t take more than a moment or two to look up. There’s no downside to knowing your rights, regardless whether you intend to act on them or not.

        2. RR*

          Yeah, that’s my boss too. He just wants to pretend everything is normal, he always has. Who do you think had an outbreak?

        3. Ugh*

          With all those people who got “doctor exemptions” to not wear masks, could you get a doctor to write a letter or prescription that you need to wear one (for anxiety or …). This might protect you under ADA. But, I’d ask a lawyer first & start looking for another job.

    7. hugh*

      Gosh – I’m sorry – this sounds stressful. I would look for a new job pronto – he obviously doesn’t respect your health and he’s an asshat. I wouldn’t trust his judgement elsewhere . . . In the mean time it might be worth finding out if this potentially crosses the line for ADA? I’m also curious if you were fired for wearing a mask what consequences might come down on him? What would happen if you couldn’t be vaccinated because you had a health issue that prohibited you? Also, “science” is finding that the vaccine is less effective for some folks who have compromised immune systems. In either of these situations wearing a mask could potentially save your life correct? If you can team up with the other maskers that would be good too. I guess just be clear to him that this is what makes you feel safe and he is free to do what he wants with his body but not dictate to you.

    8. anonymath*

      Ugh.

      I don’t know what your rights are, exactly.

      If I had to argue, I’d take an “As a LiBerTarIaN,…” personal liberty slant, and I’d also lay on a (vague) guilt trip about immunocompromised people you care about. I don’t know if that’s the right thing to do. But that’s what I’d do: personal liberty, “my rights”, “don’t you care about my (friend’s) life”, personal responsibility, etc. But I’m also in a position where I’m kind of happy to pick certain kinds of fights.

    11. bunniferous*

      If you didn’t need the money from this job to live….I would be mighty tempted to let him fire me over the mask and then see what the unemployment office said about it.

      I don’t want to wear a mask and in your shoes would not be wearing one BUT I am all about people getting to do what makes THEM comfortable. If you feel you need to wear a mask you should be able to wear one. I mean, technically your boss is being “very UnAmerican…”

    12. Kotow*

      Ugh, this is where even though he *can* ban them, it’s such a stupid thing to do. The whole mask issue this last year has been centered on “let people make their own choices” and by banning them, he isn’t letting people do that. And I say this as someone who has no problem taking off a mask when it’s clear it won’t be required or enforced and would have been completely comfortable the entire year had nobody worn a mask around me. I decided to make it optional in my office but even so, when one client preferred to wear a mask, it was no trouble to wear one as well. I certainly wouldn’t think of banning it!

    13. FedUp*

      Maybe this makes me a horrible person, but I really really hope your boss lands his ass on ventilator with a long, miserable case of COVID…

    14. Here we go again*

      One party store I frequent around me doesn’t enforce masks. They have the sign up it don’t enforce it. (They’ve been robbed a couple times, and they want to see everyone’s face, also checking ID for alcohol) I actually like that they don’t enforce it. I have a feeling once this is over a lot of party stores and banks will ban masks, like some ban hoodies and sunglasses.
      I worked at a gas station (I was 19 and didn’t know any better, worst job ever!) that was robbed about 4 days after I walked off, it would’ve been my shift and my replacement was assaulted too.
      I have a feeling for criminal surgical masks be the new panty hose for robbers.

    15. Sleeping Late Every Day*

      Oh, how tempting it would be to wear a mask with “My boss is an asshole” printed on it!

  6. Law school baby*

    Any advice on asking my manager for a law school recommendation?
    Not at a direct feeder job to law, but working law adjacent.

    1. IL JimP*

      this is heavily dependent on what you know of your manager and how they would react to the protentional of you leaving sometime in the future

      also is your manager even a good resource for that type of recommendation?

    2. Legal Beagle*

      It would be a good recommendation to have, but totally depends on how you think your manager will react to the idea of you leaving the job soon. Do they know you’re thinking about law school? Are you planning to quit and do school full-time? What’s your timeline? If they don’t know yet, I’d start a conversation about your goals and plans to get the manager up to speed before asking for a recommendation. If they say no or you don’t feel comfortable asking, you’ll still be fine! College professors are a good source, past bosses, etc. And for better or worse, it’s mostly about LSAT score anyway.

      1. Legal Beagle*

        ETA more context: Many candidates come straight from college with little to no work experience, so a reference from a manager can give a boost to your application. Also, working in a law-adjacent field shows your interest in the field, and they can speak to your aptitude, diligence, etc. However, it’s fine if you don’t have that reference. I worked as a paralegal before law school and did not ask my manager for a recommendation because I didn’t want her to know I’d be leaving, and I still got into a highly-ranked school. My resume was part of the application, and I wrote my essay about the work I was doing, so I was still able to highlight that experience.

        1. Law school baby*

          My worry is I’ve been out of school for 3 years and haven’t kept up with any professors, plus my last job went poorly on both sides. I asked one former boss who agreed, but I think I’d need two or more.

          Also, would my direct manager or grand boss make more sense?

        2. IL JimP*

          I totally read recommendation as in recommending a good school and not even thinking about on the application for the school lol

    3. Jane of all Trades*

      If you have a good relationship with them they can give you a strong recommendation, because they know you well, and can speak to your analytical skills etc.
      My former boss, who is amazing, wrote me a strong recommendation for law school and for my summer associate position. But only do it if you are close enough that you can have a discussion with them about pursuing opportunities that will take you away from your current job, and if you know they will be supportive and will write you a strong letter.

    4. RecoveringSWO*

      Is your only concern whether your manager may push you out too early since you’re planning on law school? If so, you could state that you’re looking to go part time (at night). Plenty of people change their mind about whether to go full time or part time during the application/acceptance process, so I wouldn’t feel bad about stating that to the boss even if you end up going full time. If I recall correctly, you’re getting a universal recommendation letter to all the schools your applying to and not one per specific school, so I don’t think you need to commit to only apply to local schools if you go with that strategy.

    5. Amandalikeshummus*

      I just straight up asked mine for a recommendation last year. I needed it, since I’ve been out of school for a long time. He was cool about it. I do recommend letting your manager know that recommendations are usually about a page or so, since they probably don’t write many.

      Now I’m figuring out when to give my notice, since I’ll be quitting to attend.

  7. tommy-toes*

    Are resumes:
    (A) a document that lists your comprehensive work history OR
    (B) should it list only the job experiences that are relevant to the position being applied to OR (C) should it only list most recent job experiences that will fit on one page OR (B) and (C)?

    I ask because I was being interviewed for a full-time job and I submitted a resume that listed only relevant job history and the interviewer asked me about my “gaps” in employment? For one, I was puzzled because I am graduating this Spring so all my work experience listed was strictly internships, volunteer, and maybe a few retails gigs and I didn’t think “gaps” in your work history would apply. Two, I was confused because if I listed my entire work history including the nannying gigs and non-relevant retail/food service gigs then my resume would have been easily 2-3 pages. Basically, I am 21 and I’ve been interning or working since I was 15 years old/summer before my Junior year of high school. Just in internships, I could list 9 internships each at least 3 months in length.

    If in the future, lets say I stay at this job 2-4, maybe 5 years, I would certainly list the full-time job… but how should I approach the rest of the resume?

    My approach was to list all the most recent AND relevant job experiences.

    What say you, hiring manangers?

    1. Essess*

      I make a point of having the header of that section of the resume say “Relevant Work History” to make it clear that it’s not a complete list.

    2. IL JimP*

      It should be a combination of B & C

      you want to have your full job history to an extent (short term jobs or short gaps don’t matter) but what you write under them in your bullet points should be customized to what is relevant for the job you are applying for also depending on the length of your job history you don’t have to go all the way back to HS or anything probably last 10 yeas is sufficient or whatever you have post college

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        +1 on a combo of B & C.

        I’d keep a comprehensive work history copy for yourself that you can make copies of and tweak for each position, but don’t send the comprehensive one to the jobs you apply to.

      2. Aquawoman*

        I also agree B + C but asking a graduating student about “gaps” in their resume is cuckoo.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          Seconded that asking about “gaps” is a weird, irrelevant question to ask of a graduating college student (who did not return to college as an adult with a previous job history). That’s like asking a high school student why they don’t already have multiple years of work experience. It shows a complete lack of understanding of what is reasonable to expect.

          You should keep a document like A (complete work history) so that you can pick and choose your relevant work history for a tailored resume (B).

    3. ecnaseener*

      It’s definitely not A, that’s a CV. I believe Alison usually calls it a “marketing document.” That said, apparent gaps can look weird so a pure B might not work.

      It definitely sounds like this interviewer was being weird, wondering about “gaps” while you were a student.

    5. EndlessWorry*

      B for sure – I’ve seen resumes described as more of a marketing document, and I think that’s accurate. I also put the header “Notable Professional Experiences” (or “Select” or “Relevant” in place of “Notable”) to signal that this isn’t everything, just what I believe is valuable for them to know about.

    6. ferrina*

      Depends on the resume flow and on your work history.

      I have a work history that is very linear- for the last 10 years, each position has clearly fed in to the next. There’s a bit of irrelevant experience, but that was 12 years ago, so I just leave everything that’s older than 10 years off. No one cares about a gap between getting your degree and that position ten years ago. For me, I have a combo of B and C. My situation is pretty common.

      Since you are a recent grad (or will be soon- congrats!), the rules are a little different. Most recent grads list their entire work history, since it’s usually pretty short. For you, definitely cut it down to include the most relevant things, *including the positions with longest tenure*. If you have a position you’ve been at for several years, even if it’s not relevant to what you’re applying to, it’s good evidence that you are committed, reliable and clearly capable of holding down a long-term job. You may want to cover any obvious gaps (like if there was a summer that you didn’t do anything relevant), but it’s not essential.

      When someone asks in an interview, just explain the situation to them. “I’ve done so many jobs, gigs and internships that my full CV is three pages long! I like to keep my resume at 1 page, but I’m happy to provide more info/my full-length work history if you’d like!” Most people wont’ ask- like you said, a new grad is expected to have “gaps”, but you can also just talk about what you did during that time, even if it’s something like “oh, I had completed two back to back internships, so I took a month to rest and recharge before leaping back in to my studies”.

      Whatever you do, definitely keep that resume to one page.

    7. t-vex*

      If I’ve taken only one thing from reading AAM for years, it’s that resumes are not inventories they’re marketing documents

    8. Cthulhu's Librarian*

      I will say that one of the few pieces of useful advice I ever got while on unemployment (mandatory job searching coaching after 4 months of collecting was an initiative my state was trying out at the time), was to keep a ‘master resume’ file, which included all your former positions and accomplishments (“so, functionally a CV, I asked?” and got a blank look). The idea behind it was that you had a ready document from which you could copy and past various past experiences to be tailor a custom resume quickly – and also were prepared for those employers who said something silly like “give us your work history for the last 10 years, no matter how short the employment was”.

      Got a lot of bad advice from that coaching situation as well, but that is one of the few that I think actually had some merit and value – and it has made things a little easier for me when I found myself applying to a lot of varied positions in various fields in quick succession.

    9. TWW*

      B+C for me. I’m in my 40s and recently had success with a short resume that barely filled 1 page, even with generous margins and line spacing.

      The only things in there were two jobs with 4 “accomplishments” each, my college name and degree, and a short list of software skills.

      I left out tons of jobs, skills, and education that are important to me personally, and that I’m proud of, but would not have been relevant to potential employers in my field.

    10. vlookup*

      It’s not a gap in employment to not work while you’re in high school or college. Especially if you’re a full-time student, being in school is your primary “job.” Your other professional experiences during college obviously matter a lot to getting that first post-grad job, but most interviewers wouldn’t notice or care that you took a semester off from internships and part-time jobs to focus on academics or whatever.

      For now I think you’re fine to include however much relevant job history that keeps your resume to one page, and as you gain post-college full-time work experience you can gradually reduce the amount of college-era content. I would take the high school stuff off once you graduate unless it’s something really notable (like you competed in the Olympics or something).

    11. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I say you’ve had an interview that could have come out of sitcom. I can imagine Reese Witherspoon as a college senior being asked this question… “The gaps? You mean the school semesters when I was a full-time student?”

    12. tommy-toes*

      OP here: Thanks, all! When the hiring manager asked, I responded “Gaps…? Umm… I mean, when I wasn’t in school or working, interning or volunteering, I was being a teenager taking in sports or hobbies, like yoga, sleeping, or netflixing, …like a normal teen… but I guess you could say I was nannying or working as a hostess or retail salesperson all things I didn’t think to include because they weren’t particularly relevant to include…does that answer your question? Sorry, didn’t think gaps were a thing this early on [awkwardly laughed].”

      Frankly, I was peeved. I have been HUSTLING my entire life and to have someone question my “gaps” as a teen was annoying to say the least. I am probably projecting and reading into it more than I should be, but when you work harder and for longer compared to peers who have MAYBE three things listed who are likely going to be better received and perceived, there’s reason to be mad. I am person of color, but I’ll hold up this candle to anyone who doesn’t have my work ethic.

      1. MacGillicuddy*

        I like your reply to the interviewer.

        How did the interviewer respond to that? Just curious.

        I hope the person was embarrassed. But maybe they were too clueless to be embarrassed .

    13. Wordybird*

      I’m 41 so I only have the last 10 years of employment on my resume. I also left out a job I only had for 2 1/2 months when we temporarily lived in another state. I’ve had all admin and comm jobs but they haven’t been in one field so the jobs I had previous to 10 years ago are not any more relevant or necessary than the ones I’ve had since. I also avoid age discrimination this way which, as someone who is also female and fat, is one less thing for them to judge and reject me on.

  8. Three Seagrass*

    I am at BEC stage with a coworker, and need help determining:
    1. If this is a me problem or a coworker problem
    2. If it’s a coworker problem, what I can do about it

    Background: Several of my coworkers are heavy into diet talk, which I just do not contribute to. It’s gotten worse as they all moan about their pandemic bodies and pandemic habits. One coworker in particular, let’s call her Patty, particularly loves diets. She is always juicing, detoxing, paleoing, intermittent fasting, what have you. She tells us regularly about whatever fad diet she is doing.

    But it doesn’t stop with the diets. She also is into a lot of wellness/pseudoscience stuff. And when Patty brings it up, people tend to just nod their heads, or go “Huh, I should try that!” During the pandemic, we have spent 10-15 minutes of multiple meetings (sometimes work meetings, sometimes social meetings) listening to her talk about whatever new fad thing she is into (changing her breathing, sleep hacks, vitamins and supplements).

    I feel like this stuff just does not belong at work, both the diet stuff and wellness stuff. I don’t need to know why Patty thinks her lactose intolerance is disrupting her sleep. I just want to pretend we are amorphous blobs and do my work.

    So, is this a me problem and I just need to get over myself? Or is this actually a Patty problem and what do I do about it?

    1. ecnaseener*

      I mean, it’s definitely a Patty problem and you’re right that she shouldn’t be constantly talking about it at work. But I don’t know if you’ll accomplish anything trying to shut her down.

      1. Reba*

        Yeah, if it really is the office culture, and Patty is just the worst offender, maybe it wouldn’t make a difference and you would feel it’s not worth the expenditure of effort. Then again, sometimes when the main instigator quiets down the dynamic can really change because other people are not the ones raising it, even if they do participate. Ugh.

        I wonder if you went to her as asking her to help you, she might be more amenable? (as opposed to you saying essentially you’re not interested in hearing about her hobbies or bonding over this, which I could see her getting miffed about). To be clear she sounds out of line, and her manager should tell her to cool it, but unfortunately this kind of talk is so normalized!

        Anyway, depending on the relationship with the person, I’m thinking of something like “you couldn’t know this, but it’s really hard for me to hear about dieting and body talk all the time. It would really help me to have a break from that when I’m at work — do you think you could try to avoid talking about it in meetings where we are all together? thank you so much for understanding” ?

    2. Should i apply?*

      I personally think its a Patty problem, but probably not something you can do much about if its the culture are your office. Have you tried redirecting the topic of conversation? Or just saying that you aren’t interested in talking about this? If so what happens?

      1. Joan Rivers*

        It’s a Patty PERSONALITY Problem. You can’t ask her to stop it any more than you can ask someone to stop talking sports. This is her obsession.

        It would be tempting to ask her HOW MANY different diet tactics she’s tried so far. And why she thinks none of them have “worked.” Or act surprised. “Another cleanse? Didn’t the last one work?”

    3. SomebodyElse*

      It sounds a little bit of both from your description. The only thing you can do is the same thing you would do if someone was talking excessively about their pet rock collection, that tv show that you have no interest in, or that sports thing that means nothing to you.

      If it’s in a work meeting, you’re on pretty solid ground to make a comment along the lines of, “Hey all, can we start the meeting? I have a busy day ahead of me” In social meetings or ‘water cooler’ chats, you can either choose to not participate or again try a different subject.

      1. WellRed*

        Agree. Patty should not be hijacking meetings with this stuff. Course, we have a meeting hijacker and it’s hard to steer them back on track.

        1. Cassidy*

          So true. I have a co-worker who *constantly* blabs on and on and ON during meetings about herself and all things associated. A true narcissist in every way and such a PITA.

    4. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      Can you redirect or say something like ” well back to the Johnson reports ” in meetings? I can see if you even had mild body issues that would bother you. My boss constantly worrying about her weight bothers me. I wanna say it’s ok to be fat!

    5. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      Definitely a Patty problem. I had a coworker that had a similar behavior. She was young and new to the team so I was able to take her aside and nip it in the bud. It doesn’t sound like that’s an option for you with Patty though, so you can 1) ask her to rein it in, 2) ask your manager to talk to her and rein it in, or 3) ignore it.
      If you talk to your manager about it, definitely frame it around how long she derails meetings for and how it impacts productivity.

      1. Three Seagrass*

        I have a good relationship with my manager and have thought about talking to her about it. But she also contributes to this sort of conversation, and I really struggle with feeling like I am complaining/tattling and that makes me not want to bring it up. Framing it as a productivity issue is a good idea.

    6. Maggie*

      I think this is really common in offices and have had many co workers who were always on a diet. She probably won’t stop so I’d vote for ignore it and just saying “I’m really not up for that topic at the moment” or something if she addresses you specifically.

    7. matcha123*

      Is she really trying to get you to engage with her or is she saying things about your lifestyle that are iffy?

      I think this is one of those things where you just let your eyes glaze over. When people talk about family or kids or their lunch, that’s what I do.

    8. Colette*

      I actually think it’s a problem of the person/people running the meetings.

      But I also think you could say something like “Can we cut back on the diet talk? I feel like it’s taking up a lot of time.”

      1. Zzzzzzz*

        What do your other coworkers think? If people aren’t engaging much, they might be on your side. (“Huh, maybe I should try that” sounds like deflection/ending conversation to me.) Whenever you’re at BEC, it’s almost a certainty others are, too! If you can get them to chime in, you might start off a meeting (before Patty gets going) by saying, “I’ve realized a lot of the dieting talk has been affecting me, so I’d like to ask that we cut it down to a minimum [for my mental health]. Trying to less critical of my body! Also it makes our meetings longer, and I know we’re all so busy, so I’d hope people could take it off line.” If even 2 other people say, “yes! I agree, I would appreciate that,” Patty is much less likely to persist. People who share gross medical issues are a different thing, but I bet dieting talk could be cut down a lot because there is so much media/celebrities talking about body positivity (even if they aren’t living it). Good luck!

        2. Three Seagrass*

          It’s a good point that if I’m at this stage, other might be too. Over a year of Zoom meetings that she hijacks to talk about this stuff is probably wearing on all of us.

          I like your script and might give it a try.

    9. Spearmint*

      Patty forcing this topic on you is a Patty problem, and so is her taking up significant time in meetings to go these tangents. You have every right to set boundaries here and Patty shouldn’t be so aggressive about a sensitive topic.

      That said, you also want Patty to never mention her dieting or wellness stuff in passing or to other coworkers (I was unclear if you did or not), then I think that’s more of a you problem. Dieting and wellness, even the pseudoscientific varieties, are essentially hobbies for many people, and they get to talk about their personal lives and interests to coworkers who are interested, just like others do with TV shows or sports.

      2. Three Seagrass*

        Yes, I just want our meetings to not be dominated by this sort of stuff. We’re still remote and we have scheduled “social chats” (I know a lot of people here would hate this but it works for our team).

        When Patty starts talking, it usually ends up here, and in a Zoom meeting, you can’t really have 3 people talk about their juice cleanse and everyone else talk about a TV show. One conversation is going to win, so I feel held hostage to what Patty wants to talk about–she tends to dominate a lot of our work conversations.

        In the office, it didn’t bother me as much. It was a lot easier to ignore when I wasn’t forced into the conversation and could easily walk away.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          It sounds like the zoom visits aren’t really working?
          Can they visit after the meeting not before it?

          It might be easier at the end to say, “oh look at the time! gotta go!”

          It might be of help to think about how you would react to any over-indulged topic. If they were talking about football or some obscure computer program, etc., it might be easier to envision how you would either exit the conversation or redirect the conversation. Certain topics can be more annoying than others, but the constant daily drone of any one topic can just get to be too much for most people.

        2. unpleased*

          Can you not use the Zoom chat to introduce a different topic of conversation after a few minutes?

    10. mediamaven*

      I have a direct report who is like this only on an elevated scale and I’ve come to believe she may have a larger problem. It’s affected the office and her work and her attitude so much over the last 3 years that I’m actually sitting down with her today to discuss it. I agree with the commenters who think the first step is making a casual but concerted effort to shut it down. No one appreciates someone with a superiority complex over diet and nutrition and no one should be regularly subjected to it. But outside of that I think any further action should be taken by leadership and approached with compassion if there is something larger at play.

      1. Zzzzzzz*

        For all your other employees, I say: thank you! I wish more managers would make this point! I can be compassionate for the person’s struggles (and it sounds like she certainly is suffering) but also I don’t want to hear it.

    11. EarthBound*

      The department that works on my hall (not my department) is completely like this. Except I live in a rural area so whatever fad it is is about 1-2 years behind. I love to bust in and say, “Actually, that’s BS,” which goes over about as well as you can expect.

    12. Aquawoman*

      No one should hijack a work meeting for 15 minutes to talk about any personal interest. For social meetings, it’s a little more difficult to call. I would also generally find it tedious and would wander off or start a side conversation at an in-person meeting, and maybe mute Patty and read the paper or do a subject change question
      during a Zoom social meeting.

    13. violet04*

      At my company, I couldn’t imagine taking 10-15 minutes of a work meeting to discuss random topics. We have a meeting heavy culture and people are often double booked or have back to back meetings, so we try to maximize meeting time. There’s usually a little small talk for a few minutes, but not much beyond that.

      Having said that, I think it’s a Patty problem. For work meetings, can the organizer try to keep things on track with an agenda?

    14. Koala dreams*

      It sounds more like a society problem. For some reason, dieting and health is a popular small talk topic, despite being sensitive for lots of people. Especially now during the pandemic.

      I agree with other commenters that you could try to change the topic.

    15. RagingADHD*

      This is annoying, but I don’t think it’s squarely in the “inappropriate to discuss at work” box. Since everyone else seems to be participating, it doesn’t sound like Patty is pushing the topic on a captive audience. She’s not shilling products. And apparently she’s not commenting on other people’s bodies or telling them that they need to change their habits/practices.

      Like it or not, these topics are within norms. And, however justified, it’s really hard to change norms all by yourself.

      If you were willing to be the odd one out, you could say “Hey, all this diet talk is getting old, could we make this a n0-diet zone?” You’ll have to be the judge of how that would be received.

  9. ecnaseener*

    The conversation about email sign-offs earlier this week got me thinking: Opinions on signing your name above your signature? By which I mean, do you do #1:

    [email content]

    Best,
    Jane

    Jane Warbleworth
    Llama Groomer
    jane@llamas.org
    555-555-5555

    Or #2:

    [email content]

    Best,

    Jane Warbleworth
    Llama Groomer
    jane@llamas.org
    555-555-5555

    In my mind, #1 makes more sense even though it may be redundant. The email signature is like stationery with my full name and contact info in case you need it — it’s not part of my actual message to you. If the email is formal enough to bother with “Best,” it feels weird to cut off the closing there.

    Hardly the most pressing matter in the world, but I’m curious whether others agree or if I’m the only one who sees #2 as impersonal!

    2. ThatOnePlease*

      I do #1, and that’s usually what I see in the email I receive, too. Just the signature feels a little cold and officious to me.

    3. Leah K.*

      I do #2. It’s my signature, and I use it as such. The redundancy in #1 always looked “off” to me, but I have quite a few coworkers who do that too. I think it’s just a matter of preference.

      3. twocents*

        This with the extra caveat that I don’t have the word “best,” to end my email and lead into a signature. An email isn’t a formal letter. It doesn’t need salutations.

      4. The Rural Juror*

        Same, but my name in my email signature doesn’t look totally off from the text in the body of my email. My title below my name is in bold and matches the company’s brand font. So I don’t think it looks odd that I just say, “Thanks!” and then let my signature do the rest.

        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          Yeah, at my last company, the signature was your name in the standard email font, in bold. I used #2. At my current job, the signature is a much smaller font and has a line above it, so it’s obviously not part of the message, so I use #1.

      5. Littorally*

        Ditto. I don’t have the break between the signoff and my name, which helps with that unfinished look.

      6. Lana Kane*

        Same, in my mind it’s what it’s for, so there’s no value judgment of cold vs warm. It’s just a signature.

    4. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I do #1 for the reasons you stated, but I see a lot of #2 and it doesn’t bother me.

    5. Hawkeye is in the details*

      #2 is what I do, and what I see most people do in my current and in my last job, but there were some who did #1

    6. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      I do #1 and find #2 a little odd. However what I REALLY dislike is, some of my colleagues have set up a signature consisting of:

      Thanks,
      Esmeralda (cursive font)

      Esmeralda Eggplant
      Llama Groomer

      I cannot stand having the “Thanks” be rote. Plus, sometimes Thanks needs an exclamation point, sometimes it’s a period. Sometimes it should be a breezy “Thx!” It feels insincere to me when it’s just part of your signature.

        1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

          Best and Regards are overly formal in an email context to me in most situations, but they don’t grate on me like the auto-Thanks. As with professional clothing – it’s always better to err on the side of more formal than more informal. “Thanks” doesn’t always align with the email’s content, and to me says the sender couldn’t take two seconds to decide if a Thanks was actually warranted, and then adjust it to the context.
          “Here’s that file you requested.
          Thanks,
          Esmeralda”

          versus

          “Here’s that file you requested. Thanks for your patience, took me a while to dig up!
          Esmeralda”

          The second version indicates Esmeralda is on top of professional norms.

          1. Fae Kamen*

            I guess I agree on a purely rational level, but I can’t imagine mentally dinging anyone’s professionalism for signing off “Thanks.” We have enough to worry about!

          2. Yorick*

            Right, Esmeralda doesn’t need to thank me for sending something I requested and it sounds weird for her to. Instead, she could end with many other more appropriate options like “Cheers” or “Best” or “Have a great day” or “Happy to help.”

    7. acmx*

      I do both and it varies. First one is when I’m emailing one person. The 2nd one if I email FYI to my group. Or I’m replying with just an acknowledgement (‘got it’ or ‘thanks’ etc). Or mood.

      I don’t use ‘best’, though. Best what?

      1. ecnaseener*

        Best wishes I guess. All my best.
        I actually usually use “Thanks,” but after the spirited debate on that earlier this week I figured I’d go with a less contentious option lol

        See for me when I’m just doing a quick “got it,” I won’t bother with any closing at all — it’s [email content] and then the automatic signature. I don’t type “Thanks,” on a new line.

        1. acmx*

          Ha re: less contentious option. I don’t really care how people sign off their emails. I change mine up to be more personal or amuse myself. :)

          Agreed: a quick ‘got it’ just gets my auto sig. My sig block doesn’t have any close. It’s my name and contact info only.

      2. Aquawoman*

        I’m the same way about “Best” but IME it is THE sign-off for people under 35 or 40.

        1. Lana Kane*

          I don’t get “Best”. It’s not immediately comprehensible to just say “best” without other context.

          But I’m a “Thanks” or Thank you” person myself, which apparently is contentious!

          1. Siege*

            I use Best. Sometimes, it’s “Best regards”, other times it’s “this is my best middle finger”. Regards is for when my email makes it clear the recipient done effed up. I don’t care for thanks, but often do use it if I’m explicitly making a request in the email (“Jane, can you count how many XL shirts we have left? thanks!”). Thanks as a generic reply always strikes me as thanks for what? Are you just generically thankful? No request was made in this, it’s information on the number of XL shirts, so what am I being thanked for?

            It doesn’t bother me, but I don’t get it in a lot of cases. I do like the ambiguity of Best, though.

            Another way to read it is “I am signing an email.” “Best regards” is “I am signing an email while angry.” :)

            1. ampersand*

              +100 for making me laugh, though I always sign off with regards, unless I’m saying thanks.

              I love how opinionated people are on this topic! And opinions are all over the place. Pretty sure we could not all agree on one sign off even if we tried. :)

            2. Dancing Otter*

              And complaints are always, but always, signed off with “Sincerely” and one’s name in full. Right?

            3. Cassidy*

              >Sometimes, it’s “Best regards”, other times it’s “this is my best middle finger”.

              Awesome comment.

      4. Wordybird*

        “Best” is my number one work email pet peeve as I also have no idea what it refers to. Best wishes? Best day ever? I’m the best? You’re the best?

        I work in a very regulated field so I can’t do it but I have wanted to change my sign-off to “Better” so many times just to see what others would think/say. :)

        1. Usagi*

          An old coworker at a previous company felt the same way, and company culture was such that most people signed off with “best.” So this coworker began signing all (within reason, of course) his e-mails on a scale, based on how “good” the news of the e-mail was. “Worst,” “worse,” “bad,” “okay,” “good,” “better,” and “best.” So I’d receive e-mails from him like

          Hey Usagi,

          Unfortunately I have to deny your request for more resources for your Bunny Fur Trimming Project; funding has already been tapped out for this quarter. I’ll add your request to the queue for next quarter, though, so please remind me closer to then.

          Bad,
          Old Coworker

          or

          Hi Usagi,

          Great news! Due to some great planning by another team, we were able to find more funding for your Rabbit Fur Trimming Project! I’m preemptively approving it and moving it forward, you should have access to the funds by the end of the week — please resubmit the request (same paperwork with dates changed is fine) for posterity.

          Best,
          Old Coworker

          or

          Hi Usagi,

          Thanks for submitting your funding request form. I’ve filed it with the rest of your paperwork.

          Okay,
          Old Coworker

    8. Kat Em*

      I do #1, especially since my signature doesn’t include my nickname. So it looks more like this:

      Sincerely,
      Cindy

      Cinderella Charming
      Princess of Kingdom

      1. Sparkles McFadden*

        Yes, this. This also relates to an earlier AAM letter regarding signing emails with initial. I would use my initials sometimes because my signature has my full name.

    9. t-vex*

      I do #1 with my nickname if it’s someone I know well and/or am trying to come off as super friendly

      ~Vexie

      Tyrannosaurus Vex, MD
      Title
      Company

    10. MMMMMmmmmMMM*

      I usually do #2. That said, I’ve also just ended an email with “Cheers! M” (m is first initial), so I think it really depends on where you work and what the norm is.

    11. RabbitRabbit*

      I do 1.1, putting a couple dashes at the start of my signature to provide a small divider:

      Sincerely,
      Bunny
      —
      Bunny Rabbit, HRA, CC – Hay Growing Regulator
      Happy Hay Farm, Inc.
      bunny_rabbit@hfa . com | 555-555-5555

    12. hugh*

      I prefer #2 and that is how I sign off. Although, I usually use Thank you, as the closing. For each email I send I sometimes change the closing to make it more personal:

      I appreciate your help,

      Look forward to meeting you,

      Have a great weekend,

      Please let me know if you have questions,

    13. PJS*

      It depends. I typically do #1 with people I know well or have communicated with previously because it feels weird to sign off with my full name. If my email is more formal or to someone I don’t know, I’ll usually do #2 . If we end up emailing back and forth after that initial email, I’ll usually switch to #1.

    14. Miss Bookworm*

      Our signatures don’t appear in the outlook email window where we’re typing the email; they’re added automatically by the server once we hit send so 99% of the time I’ll do #1 because it just seems better. The other 1% of the time is when I’m emailing back and forth with a coworker and I get lazy after the nth email and just stop putting anything.

    15. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I use the #2 option (12-year-old me is giggling at doing #2) but if I really want a personal message, I might actually erase the signature line altogether and just write my first name. But this is rare and only if I’m, for instance, expressing my condolences.

    16. Nela*

      It depends who I’m emailing.
      If I’m responding to a client or a colleague that I communicate with on a more informal basis, I do #1, but I’ll maybe add a few empty lines before the official signature.

      If I’m responding to someone I don’t know that well, I’ll go with #2.

      FWIW, my signature has a literal scanned signature graphic and my full name printed underneath, so the image provides a buffer if I do sign my first name.

    17. JelloStapler*

      I sign my first name above my full name, which is what I also see done most often.

      As an aside, Colleagues and I actually just had a conversation about how signing off with “Best,” annoys a lot of people (“Best…what?”) but it’s definitely an individual thing.

      1. Yellow Warbler*

        It’s short for best regards. My EU colleagues shorten it to “BR” while US colleagues shorten to “Best”.

      2. Overeducated*

        I have heard people calling it “passive aggressive” recently and that makes me sad. “Best” is, in my mind, the most neutral email signature there is. And that’s all I want, not to attract attention with it one way or another!

    18. Yellow Warbler*

      #1 is a good option if you use a nickname. Since my name doesn’t shorten, I prefer the streamlining of #2.

    19. Well...*

      I use #1 almost always, and it signals that we are on a first name basis. #2 to me signals you may not be.

    20. Overeducated*

      I do #1 because I appreciate it when other people sign off with what they want to be called. When someone has their full name and title, it can be hard to know.

      I also like to move to first names ASAP with a lot of correspondence because I have a PhD but do not work in a university, and it really grates on me when men with PhDs specifically address me as “Ms. Educated” despite the title in my email signature. If you’re going to call me “Ms. Educated” but sign off as “Peter Professor, PhD, Professor of Professing,” cool, we’re switching to first names immediately, have a great weekend Peter!

      1. Well...*

        I got offered a job once, that REQUIRED the PhD I have, to Mr. Lastname when I am in fact a woman. Like there’s a clear gender neutral option here! I don’t mind if you use it but if you’re not sure about my gender, please feel free to go with Dr. before assuming I’m a dude. There was obviously a disconnect between the people interviewing me and the staff handling the bureaucracy wrt the offer but come on. Not cool.

    21. Jules the 3rd*

      At my employer (multinational Fortune 100 tech co), there’s a lean towards #2.
      – My team lead joined us from a Fortune 500 pharma and does #1 as do a few people from NY.
      – The rest of the US contacts I checked do #2, I’d guess it’s about 10 use #2 to 5 use #1
      – All my European / Latin America / South America / coworkers that I email (about 20) use #2. All, across a range of professional levels, from shipping techs to finance. I couldn’t find anyone outside the US who used #1.

      It’s probably company and country influenced.

      1. Insolence*

        It must be the company. I am in Europe and use #1. In my company (Fortune 500 Financial sector) almost everybody uses #1 and I interact with senior officers of European Supervisory authorities, C-suite of the sector…and they all use #1, with few exceptions using #2.

    22. talos*

      I actually don’t have an auto signature at all, and often don’t sign my name either. Most of my coworkers do the same. I think our reasoning is that you can see who we are anyway.

      I really only sign for people I haven’t met before, and then I’m obviously doing #1 as I have no auto sig.

    23. RagingADHD*

      I like #1 for the first time I email someone, or if we correspond very rarely, because the template signature block includes the full name and contact info, but the first name is more personal. It reflects the paper-letter convention of a signature above the typed signature block.

      I don’t usually do it for routine emails with someone I work with frequently or have known a long time.

    24. allathian*

      I do #1. In my org, we’re all on first-name terms with each other, some even use nicknames. I usually end with a salutation in the first message of a convo, but not on subsequent messages, when I usually sign off with my first name.

      That said, I really dislike it when people incorporate the salutation into the signature, or even worse, when they use abbreviated versions. I would prefer not seeing a signoff at all in an email rather than Thx or something.

    25. tamarack and fireweed*

      Really, I could care less. I’d seriously side-eye anyone who would base a negative judgement of an employee or contact on such a minuscule detail.

      I did #2 in my younger days, always with the proper “– ” separator tho. These days, my signature has grown – it contains full given name, the short form I go by, handles on a few relevant IM platforms, two phone numbers, full postal address of my office, pronouns, and an acknowledgement of indigenous land stewardship, so, it’s #1.

    26. Virginia Plain*

      I use #1 although with Many Thanks or Regards instead of Best.

      From me, #2, like the use of Kind Regards, means “sod off”.

  10. MechanicalPencil*

    Does anyone have any experience with a career coach? I’m not sold that’s what I’m looking for.

    I feel like my career thus far has been somewhat meandering without a super clear path. I’m not thrilled with my current position and don’t want to continue in this sort of position (it was a pivot to keep a job during the pandemic), but I don’t know what my next career step should be.

    I’m wondering if this is something a career coach could help with. When I’m looking at job postings, it just turns into “well that sounds interesting/awful/ambivalent.” And I feel myself falling into the same trap of looking for a next job rather than a logical career progression. Semi logical progression.

    Is this something a career coach can do? If so, how does one find a good career coach? If not a career coach, then what should I look for?

    1. AliV*

      I worked with one and found it pretty helpful. Both for accountability and for having a cheerleader when the search grinds you down.

      1. Nunya*

        How did you go about finding and vetting your career coach? I’m thinking of hiring one, too

        1. AliV*

          Mine is an acquaintance who has gone back and forth between working in HR and freelance consulting. She also specializes in a field I was vaguely interested in, which helped me get a foot in the door in that profession.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      My career coach helped me focus on my strengths and weigh pros and cons of any position I was considering. She was immensely helpful, even during a pandemic– I was on the cusp of a really fantastic opportunity when business started to shut down, and my work with my coach helped keep me going.

      Also, my coach is not a therapist, but while working with her I developed a very strong sense of my own worth and I was able to let a lot of things roll off my back in a way I hadn’t before. So she helped me cope in my job while helping me find a new one. Which I did. In my industry but with a very different job focus, and I’m much happier.

    3. Cilantro & Lime*

      I worked with a career coach many years ago after being laid off and feeling like I needed a total change, but didn’t know what. Honestly, it wasn’t very helpful and I ended up back in the industry I’d previously been in. I think at the time I probably needed therapy more than a career coach. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

      However, if you’ve got a semi clear idea of what you’re aiming for and just need a road map/a little more structure to make it happen, I think a career coach could be really helpful!

    4. Lyudie*

      A few years ago I found one through LinkedIn’s professional finder feature. I think she was helpful, maybe not as helpful as I had hoped but she had a ton of experience as an HR person in various industries so hearing things from that side of the interviewing/hiring relationship was useful. I saw her a handful of times, not as an ongoing thing, maybe four times in as many months. It was a good experience overall as far as making a plan, exploring options, etc. I do think it’s more helpful if you have an idea (or ideas) of what you might want to do next.

      1. Joan Rivers*

        THIS sounds like a very interesting article, or book:
        “Do I need a career coach or a therapist or a life coach?”

    5. Overeducated*

      I have had a grand total of two sessions with one from within my organization (so not a “help get a new job” service exactly), and the coach basically asks a LOT of questions about why I am approaching a problem a certain way and what my thoughts or feelings may be blocking from my view, which I feel like helps me ask better questions and come up with different solutions by looking at issues from a different angle. (Even though there is talk about feelings, it’s very much not therapy, it’s action-oriented.) So that could be helpful if you think you need to be asking different questions about your immediate job search and long term goals in order to make good decisions, which it sounds like may be the case.

      I’m not sure how to find one though – mine is a free service that is more like “coaching from a trained peer” that is supported by my employer. And I am not sure how much is worth paying for this service.

      1. Just Looking*

        After reading a bunch of Alison’s insights on job-hopping I decided I needed a career coach to help me end my job hopping streak, so I googled, read reviews and found one in my area that offered the services I thought I needed. Initially I wanted help with my resume, but after her evaluation I ended up with about 10 sessions that did help me strategize in my job search, identified my strengths and weaknesses and even find my own narrative (which were thing I knew I needed from reading this website, but I seemed able to do on my own). Turns out, it helped me land good interviews and even my current job. It was also the first sign that I needed to start seeing a therapist to work on myself at a deeper level, which I am now working on.

    6. RagingADHD*

      Based on my experience, make sure the coach not only has experience in your desired field, but is up on current industry practices. Probably a good idea to cultivate your own separate contacts in the field that you can bounce their suggestions off of.

      I wasted a ton of money on one who gave me terrible, counterproductive advice. I still cringe thinking of how foolish I looked when I followed her suggestions.

      1. hamsterpants*

        My fear as well! As far as I am aware, “career coaching” is completely unregulated so I’m not sure what is stopping people from giving out junk advice. I had a therapist (so not a career coach) who advised I deal with my work stress by simply leaving the office and turning off my work phone at 5 PM every day. As a junior employee in a company with a strong culture of long weeks and 24/7 on-call, this would probably have gotten me fired. It’s an anecdote but made me SUPER wary of anyone outside my industry giving advice.

    7. CorgisAndCats*

      Personally, I would go for a career counselor rather than a career coach. At least in my area pretty much anyone can call themselves a “career coach” whereas, a career counselor has a masters in counseling and specialized in career counseling and is licensed (and regulated) by their state’s counseling office. If you go this route, look for someone who is fully licensed and not an associate level. An associate is still gaining hours for their full licensure so the fully licensed counselors will have more experience. I’m a psychologist so I am biased but I truly believe that a bit of counseling can benefit literally anyone and it is particularly helpful for navigating big decisions, such as a career change. I think it would help you distill what you are looking for, what is working/not working at your current job, and help formulate a path forward.

      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        Career Counselor sounds like the right approach to me.

        A career “coach” to me sounds like someone who keeps you on track within your work setting to get chugging up the ladder.

        A Career Counselor, especially one with solid workforce development experience, is someone who can help you ask the questions about which directions you want to take, how to evaluate whether the directions make sense for your goals, where to find training and job leads for that particular goal, etc.

        If you’re in the US, you can do this for free at your Dept of Labor Career Center. I do it in NYS and love it. And spend plenty of time working with folks on these very questions.

  11. AliV*

    I don’t have a question but want to vent about the job search. I’ve been looking for about two years. I’ve devoted so many hours to applications, had dozens of rounds of interviews. Have had three phone rejections, which are the worst. Just really difficult to keep at it.

    2. Pivot*

      I’m so sorry, I feel this. I stayed at a job (associate at a law firm) where I was miserable for 7 years, actively looking to leave at least about halfway through. Constant anxiety, but job just good enough pay-wise and I was just far enough career-wise that I couldn’t walk out or just leave for anything. So constant submitting, trying, interviewing, hoping for YEARS, even willing to change my path or lower my standards, and just nothing worked out. It was exhausting and I feel your paid. But- happy ending, and I hope you get one too. One night I spotted a job that sounded amazing and above me on Indeed (in-house counsel) and threw in an application… And this time it worked out. I think I was just in the right place at the right time, FINALLY. I left for an equal salary but a shorter commute and was willing to leave massive boss-related anxiety for the total unknown. It was a leap of faith. Three years later, I’m still here. I’ve been promoted and had multiple raises and bonuses. I love my bosses. I love the company. I may never ever leave. I can’t imagine how I was so miserable for so long. But moral of the story is mostly that sometimes it takes a long time and that sucks but it was so worth the wait. Good luck… I hope it happens for you soon.

      1. AliV*

        Thanks for sharing your story, sounds like you were searching for a really really long time!! Yeah the management-related anxiety is a huge drag. I’m glad to hear your persistence paid off and you found a healthier environment.

    3. cubone*

      sending you love and luck. It sucks. My mantra during my job hunt was “it sucks until it doesn’t”. It’s not fun, it’s tons of energy and constant rejection, but you just keep going because that’s all you can do. You’re hearing back which means you’re doing SOMETHING right, try to hold on to that. We’re cheering you on!

      1. AliV*

        And the “good” news with all these interviews is that I feel like a real pro. I’ve done so many that they make me less anxious and I don’t have to do as much prep/practice.

    5. Medical Librarian*

      Sending you all the best luck and vibes. I hope you find something very soon.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      It’s been a very rough two years and that has nothing to do with you personally or professionally. It just sucks out there.

      Take time to fill your days/weeks with “little joys” such as a scoop of ice cream or calling a good friend/loved one. Routinely connect with things that provide a moment of relief. If time/setting allows take short walks, but make it part of your routine, walking can be very supportive in more than one way.

      1. AliV*

        Yes it’s true that the terribleness of the last however many months makes it harder and of course affects the hiring process too.

    7. Anhaga*

      Good luck, and you can do it! I realized about 2 years into what became a nearly 10-year job that I did not like the job and the management was abusive, but it took another 8 years, lots of research, and so, so many applications to find a different, better career path and get out (and I still didn’t end up in the path that I’d thought I would). Getting the position I’m in now–which I absolutely love–was a stroke of luck that came when I answered a vague job posting for something I had only a little experience in. Just keep doing what you know is right in terms of your materials, and keep your mind open about the kind of positions that might work out well. The search process is hard, but you will find something!

      1. AliV*

        Omg eight years?!? How did you stick it out? I think about quitting but there’s that “it’s easier to find a job if you have a job” that keeps me from doing so.

    8. DayByDay*

      That’s tough – sending good vibes your way. If a second (or tenth) set of eyes on your resume would be at all helpful, I’d be happy to help out…

    9. Voluptuousfire*

      I’ve spend so much time job hunting over the past decade and Emmy main takeaway is that it all boils down to timing. The stars align and interview just fall into my lap. Other times it’s 3 weeks before I get a nibble.

      Just gotta keep on keeping on. Unknown it sounds like a useless platitude but it WILL get better and it will be great.

  12. Potatoes gonna potate*

    I’ve been working as a contractor for my former employer for about 2 months now. It’s going well so far. I am hitting a bit of a snag now and would like some help on wording.

    To give context, my function is to prepare tax returns. Each return that’s prepared is reviewed by a senior, and once they sign off on it, its sent to the client. I get paid for every return that gets sent to the client. So far it’s been working just fine until lately. Now that the deadline has passed, the immediate post-deadline time is very slow due to company wide PTO, everyone working less hours, people taking vacations, and just less urgency all together.

    All of that is perfectly 100% acceptable — I was in that exact role pre COVID so I know how things are. But it affects me now b/c I don’t get paid unless they review it.

    Knowing what I know about how things are post tax season, how do I bring this up? (should that even be a factor in what I say?) I plan to ask what I can reasonably expect. My hours and output won’t be changing b/c of the off season — I was literally doing 6-10 hours during busy season — but anything else I should keep in mind? My own “boss is out until sometime next week so I have a little time to come up with something to say.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      You don’t get paid *unless* they review it or *until* they review it? Are you doing work that you don’t get paid for?

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        Until they review it. Nothing goes to the client directly. My contract specifically states I only get paid once it’s reviewed, so the only work I’m doing is the actual return (which is technically unpaid but not considered unpaid since it’s the work I ahve to do?

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Well, the return isn’t unpaid, it’s just that you’re not paid for it until it’s reviewed. Which isn’t uncommon. Could your future contract specify that returns will be reviewed within X days?

    2. Person from the Resume*

      Often a contract would say that the deliverable (tax return) must be approved or rejected by X amount of time. if not reviewed before X date, it is approved automatically and the contractor can be paid for the deliverable even if it’s not reviewed (because it the fault of the company for not reviewing before the contract deadline.)

      I’d say you need to ask to adjust the contract to say that the company must review the tax returns you turn in within X days and they must pay you within Y days. Hopefully the existence of a contract will make their review of your work a priority.

      You need to consider what is reasonable. Maybe this just needs to be a slightly higher priority for them. Maybe it needs to be moved to someone else if the reviewer goes on vacation.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        The key here is a contract. What does your current one say in terms of time frames? If it says nothing, then you need to talk about amending it, but understand that you may not have much success.

        If you don’t have a contract, you need one. This is not a good set-up for the old “gentleman’s agreement.”

      2. Potatoes gonna potate*

        My manager will often move around the returns but he’s on a mini vacation now (I mean it is the long weekend and all). I think so too that it should be a higher priority and I want to mention that – just not sure how to without sounding abrasive.

    3. Accountress*

      Can you talk with your manager about doing direct review of smaller/less complex returns? When we were out of busy season, my audit manager would review items that were under X hours / had fewer than Y conditions, to take on some work from the seniors.

    4. It's me*

      Could you try setting something up like a timeline for the review process? Say something should be reviewed within X days/weeks of them receiving it? I also work in tax so I completely get the summertime vibe of the office but wondering if a timeline will help in this situation not only you for payment purposes but also might help the reviewer’s scheduling to keep them on track.

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        That’s what I was leaning towards, asking if ours can be prioritized for when they are available and a timeline. This is definitely what I’d do if I was them (which is exactly the position I was in in the before-times. I make sure not to say it out loud but I definitely need to stop thinking “this is what I’d do”).

    5. Jane of all Trades*

      Could you do something like 50% payment when you submit for review, and the balance once the return goes to the client?

    6. Potatoes gonna potate*

      Thanks for the input all, I forgot to mention that I do have an actual contract; I’ll read it and take it from there. The office is closed now and will reopen on Tuesday b/c of the holiday. Will def report back.

    7. RagingADHD*

      Irregular income is normal when you’re doing gig work / piecework. It’s one of the downsides of freelancing in general.

  13. AndersonDarling*

    I’m doing some peer interviews and I’m trying not to be biased when I receive sloppy resumes. I was passes 3 resumes and two of them are each 6 rambling pages, but the last one is a thoughtful 2 page resume that clearly shows progression in their career. One of the “lesser” resumes didn’t even have the job title for two of the jobs!
    I want to give everyone a fair chance, but I’m already leaning toward the candidate with the thoughtful resume.

    1. Hawkeye is in the details*

      I think that’s perfectly reasonable, especially if the job entails professional communication and/or knowledge of/adherence to professional norms.

      If it doesn’t, then maybe you can pick the best one or two of the not-great bunch, just to give them a shot, but if it’s a job in an office setting, I see no issue with rejecting them and holding out for a few more decent resumes.

    2. ecnaseener*

      It’s good that you’re trying not to be unduly biased — if these candidates were never taught how to write a resume, that’s not on them and they could still be a good fit. But it’s one data point to consider, and if the job includes concise writing & professional communication (and it’s not a job where a lot of training time can be taken up coaching the new hire on professional communication) it could be a pretty sizeable data point.

      1. Workerbee*

        Hmm. Thinking back to when I first started writing resumes, I looked for examples of other resumes to build off of. I knew I didn’t know enough on my own. This was at the cusp of the online world becoming prevalent, so it wasn’t overly easy and I depended on samples picked up from college and my parents’ discerning eyeballs. (I recognize the privilege in this.)

        Nowadays, I think I would expect someone to have done a search for resume examples in some way. I am however assuming that the job posting and application process were also online, ergo, the person seeing the posting has internet access to begin with. Even among the bad advice out there, providing 6 rambling pages is not one I’ve seen!

    3. ferrina*

      I like to wait until the interview before making a conclusion. Yeah, some people have bad resumes because they are bad communicators, but many have bad resumes because they haven’t been exposed to the same career resources as others!

      Resume building is a skill that requires social capital- i.e., having family/friends/resources that can coach you on how to build a good resume. Even going through a resume builder company isn’t the same- some companies have terrible product, and without knowing what good product looks like, you won’t know!

      As with any skill that requires social capital, there is a bias to certain populations. Higher income populations in particular are more likely to have access to the capital to build a strong conventional-looking resume (that is not true universally, of course- some higher-income families don’t have that same access for a multitude of reasons). Looking past “sloppy” resumes can be an opportunity in the diversity of a company.

      Example: I received a three page resume for someone with two years experience and a TERRIBLE layout. HR thought I was nuts for wanting to interview the guy. However, I recognized that the resume he gave me was government-style; he was former military. No one at our organization was former military, so they didn’t recognize the style he was using.
      He ended up being one of the best project managers that has ever worked for me.
      After he started, I explained why his resume didn’t work for this style of job, and he and I were able to fix it up together. He had no clue that the resume style we were looking for was different

      1. ferrina*

        ^that said, if this is an editing job and the resume is full of grammar errors, typos, etc., reject them with no guilt!

      2. Susie*

        love this comment–I had a similar reaction. If you can gather enough information that the applicant has the skills you’re looking for, then I’d ignore the format.

    4. Engineer Woman*

      The resume is an indicator of the candidate’s communication style and attention to detail. They know this is what someone will first see of them, so did they proofread? Are there many typo? It is long and rambly? Is it a copy-paste of their old job descriptions?

      Of course, this is needs to match the job. The above might not apply for a grocery stocking or landscape maintenance position whose job doesn’t involve too much communication.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        There’s a difference between a poorly put-together resume and an error-prone resume.
        My classic example of one that’s too careless is the person who applied for a publications position, currently working as a “poofreader” (sic). But a technician who writes three separate entries for the same company because the company changed their role without changing their title, I would let that slide.

    6. RagingADHD*

      If you are hiring for a job where candidates need to have enough experience for a 2-page resume and a clear path of career progression, then I think they should have a decent grasp of what a resume is for and how it should work.

      If you were hiring entry-level or junior level it makes more sense to give a lot of leeway on not knowing how to do this.

  14. Office layout changes?*

    For those who worked from home for a while and are now returning, have your offices changed configurations?

    Like less open spaces or more open spaces? No more office/ cube sharing? Or more hot desking?

    We moved into a new office about 6 months to a more open, fewer walls, lower walls, fewer offices, shared cubes layout. They are talking about getting rid of the shared cubes and adding more walls because of Covid.

    1. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      At the job I just left we had gone from individual offices for corporate (separate building) and a cube farm for the call center to WFH for everyone during COVID. When they reopen this fall, it’s going to be mostly WFH for call center folks, they got rid of the corporate office space and the former call center space is going to be a hotdesking space for corporate and call center folks who need to come in. There will be a few dedicated desks for people who really do need to work in the office most/all of the time.

    2. Mr. Cajun2core*

      No more office sharing for us, at least for now. It will probably return in a year or so.

    3. Yellow Warbler*

      The cubicles and office structure have not changed. Cubicles have been retro-fitted with plexiglass partitions on top of the half-walls. Conference rooms have chairs removed to increase spacing, and max occupancy notices are posted on the doors in giant red letters.

    4. Workerbee*

      There are no plans to change the open office, shared-desk structure of my workplace. They did put a standing air purifier on top of one of the empty desks, though.

  15. Roxie*

    I’m sick of management confusing someone who is loud with no filter as “bright and smart”. It’s not, it’s annoying to work with people like that. How do some people not see through that?

    My 2-cent rant for today.

    1. Anon for this here post*

      +1. Thank you for this. If I could add on, quiet =/= stupid. I’m quiet/introverted, but when I do speak, I have my coworkers say to me in surprise, “You’re smart!” Um, thanks? I like to think before I speak and not blab incessantly.

      1. Enough*

        “It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it,” Mark Twain

        Too bad too many people fail to recognize the fool.

        1. Well...*

          I gotta say I hate this quote. I’d take an honest loud mouth any day over someone who never puts themselves out there and silently judges everyone who speaks up for every minor mistake.

          1. Joan Rivers*

            Maybe you hate the quote because you don’t understand it. It’s not telling us to “judge” anyone. It’s about others judging the one who stays silent.
            Or maybe you have a specific problem with someone?

            1. Well...*

              There’s not that much to the quote, so I’m pretty sure everyone in this conversation understands it. I’m just saying I don’t like attitude that often comes along with people who use it. I actually don’t think it’s better to hide what you do or don’t know so people might think you’re not a fool, so I also disagree completely with it’s premise.

          2. VI Guy*

            I think of it as the polite way of saying “If you plan to say something stupid, please don’t”

    2. ferrina*

      Right!? My other favorite is incomprehensible jargon = “so smart and trendy!”
      No, some people use incomprehensible jargon because they are incomprehensibly dumb!

    3. MMMMMmmmmMMM*

      SAME. I currently have a student who is always loud and incessant in his questions. If they applied to the topic at hand, that would be one thing, but often his questions are itty bitty minuita. Which, again, would be fine, but its always when we’re in the middle of something, and it takes away time from the other students. Its actually made me really dislike him quite a bit, and I found I really need to reel my feelings in when it comes to him.

      1. Brent*

        I think teachers should be encouraging questions from students. The classroom is one place where noisy/asking question is often equated to dumb and silent is equated to smart.

        I’m surprised and disappointed to see a professor sharing this view. I think students should be encouraged to ask questions, and not viewed as nuisances when they do so.

        1. hamburke*

          When I was teaching, I had a couple of students who would ask questions way beyond the scope, maybe for some curiosity but mostly to debate and get off subject. I’d tell them that their questions were interesting and thought provoking but beyond the curriculum and I’d love to have a further conversation after school if they were interested or I could suggest resources that they might like. I had one or 2 conversations with some really intelligent students but mostly, no follow through.

          I also had a q&a journal in the front of the room where students could ask any question not related to the unit. I’d answer them all after a test before we moved on to a new unit.

        2. Cassidy*

          Some students ask questions that are explicitly addressed in that day’s assigned reading(s).

          Those aren’t questions that should be asked unless one is seeking clarification.

      2. Alternative Person*

        I get you. I’ve had students who have done similar and it drives me up the wall. I want to answer their questions, but there’s only so much time in class and there are other students who need my help as well.

        It’s definitely one thing when they’re directing it to the topic at hand and another when they’re picking over some small aspect like if they question you enough your answer will change or will somehow be invalidated.

    4. DG*

      I work for a smallish company where our CEO occasionally weighs in on hiring decisions. He recently made a comment to the effect of, “We need to hire more go-getters – you know, like Larry, Moe, and Curly!”

      I’m sure it doesn’t surprise you that Larry, Moe, and Curly are outgoing white men. They are nice enough and perfectly *fine* at their job but are regularly outshined by women and BIPOC colleagues.

      1. Dark Macadamia*

        For a minute I thought he was literally using the Three Stooges as an example of excellent employees LOL

    5. hugh*

      I find it super annoying as well. My biggest gripe is that management doesn’t see through it – the loud folks are seen as more productive and “team” oriented. I would feel silly loudly announcing my progress on a unsolicited basis. It is probably my #1 or #2 reason I would like to continue to work from home.

      2. Cassidy*

        Or “disrupter.”

        SO sick of the constant metaphorical bomb jumper into the pool being the pet.

    7. Well...*

      Yes the unfairness of how people evaluate smart irritates me to no end. Still I think there’s something to be learned here about how you present yourself and take initiative. I try to model myself after people who do this well, and it means speaking up more for me (also balancing thinking carefully with thinking quickly)

      1. anonymath*

        Yep, I try to understand why people like it and what they’re getting out of it, and aim for those benefits myself.

    8. Hunnybee*

      My boss is a loudmouth and a windbag and a mansplainer. He constantly interrupts everyone to go on rants that mean nothing. He’s a bully. And yet, he never really says anything at all.

      Since this manager took over the team I work on, everyone has found another job except me.
      He has been open about his dislike of introverts (I’m an introvert, as were my former team who left) and hires people like him.

      He has been hiring people who are like him. So, that’s super fun.

      1. allathian*

        Are you looking for a new job? Sounds like you should be, by the sound of it. You’re never going to do well under this manager because he doesn’t appreciate your strengths.

    9. Sparkles McFadden*

      You forgot “passionate.” I am so sick of having management excuse away people who scream at everyone by saying “But he’s just so passionate he gets carried away.”

    10. MissDisplaced*

      The American corporate and social structure favors extroversion because it is seen as optimistic and confident, even if it’s all fake bullshit with zero substance.

  16. cubone*

    How do you all define “meeting heavy”? Or too many meetings? Is it a specific # of meetings per day/week or is it less about a specific threshold and more if meetings are not useful/efficient?

    I started a new job and in the interview, the hiring manager brought up that they do have a “meeting heavy culture”. I was coming from a VERY meeting heavy (and extremely toxic) workplace so it wasn’t ideal, but didn’t deter me from the other positives. Several of my new colleagues have made those small talk jokes about how many meetings they have to be in, etc. I know it’s possible I am still too new (but 3 months in!) and am not yet getting the full scope but oh my goodness, I have never had my days be this relaxed and FREE of meetings. It’s so weird that people keep bringing up but I would describe it as a very independent work culture, not a lot of meetings at ALL. It’s so weird!

    I can share some specific #’s of how many meetings I’m in at this point, but wanted to put it out there to see what others define as “meeting heavy”.

    1. SomebodyElse*

      Meeting heavy to me means less than 1 1/2 hour free on calendar for the majority of days each week and being double/triple booked.

      1. cubone*

        This is my definition tooL less than 1.5 hours free on most days (not including lunch breaks) and having to navigate conflicting meetings frequently.

      2. violet04*

        I agree. I work in software development and some people are in more meetings than others. We do scrum/agile so I host a daily status meeting with my developers but it’s only for 15 minutes and sometimes ends after 10 minutes. I do my best to protect the time of my developers so I’ll attend meetings to discuss new requirements, etc. and then talk to them once I have something specific to hand over for them to work on.

        People in certain roles, like system architects, are in a lot of meetings becoming a lot of different teams need their input.

        We are supposed to have no meetings on Tuesdays. Most people are good about honoring that, but sometimes urgent meeting are needed to address software issues that may be impacting our end users.

      3. LadyByTheLake*

        Yes, this seems about right, although I have had many jobs where an hour and a half unbooked in four weeks would have been a complete luxury. Fifteen minutes unbooked in a week was average.

    2. Old Reliable*

      I’ve don’t consider my role “meeting heavy” but when it starts to creep into 2 a day, every day that’s heavy for me. My meetings are generally short – an hour tops and many are closer to 30 minutes. I find the interruptions make it feel worse than the total time spent would seem.

      1. cubone*

        This is a good point! I said in a response below that I often am more aware of how many meeting FREE days I have, versus total meetings. I think managers overall tend to underestimate the energy meetings take and that people can rarely just go to and from deep work into meetings.

      2. JanetM*

        Just the other day, I heard myself saying, “Four meetings in a day is fine. Four meetings in two-and-a-half hours is a bit much.” Also, six meetings in a day is awful.

        I do consider my job fairly meeting-heavy.

    3. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I think it’s totally relative. Perhaps this company used to have no meetings at all, but moved to a couple meetings a month recently. In contrast, that would be a meeting heavy culture! It also depends on the norms in the industry, the productivity at these meetings, and how you define meetings. Is every stop-and-chat or quick briefing considered a meeting?

      1. cubone*

        I think you’re right on the mark. It does seem like there’s a bit of a “let’s jump on a call to discuss this” culture, but I haven’t found that too problematic for my personally (again, because my days are pretty free LOL).

        For context: we have a 1 hour All Staff every other week, a 1 hour team meeting every other week, and I have a 30 min. 1:1 with my manager every other week. So that’s 6 standard monthly meetings. And then I’ll have maybe 1-4 (1 being low, 4 being a busy week) “extra” meetings that pop up for project related work, etc.

        Most weeks, I have at least 2 days with zero meetings in a week (sometimes up to 3, but never 0). Which I think is where my personal standard comes in – in my old job, I literally can’t recall EVER having a day with zero meetings. So I don’t mind a day that has 2-3, if the days before or after are zero.

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      It depends so much for me on how big the meetings are, how long they are, and what they are for.

      A daily 2-hour meeting with 30 people, with no agenda or purpose other than to hear each other talk is deadly.

      I would much rather have 6 30-minute meetings throughout the day, each with 5 people, and focused on achieving a certain goal. It’s more people, and it’s more time overall, but they are in bite-sized chunks and actually have something to do with the business.

    5. ThatGirl*

      I would call my new company pretty meeting heavy, though my personal meeting level ebbs and flows – but I average 4-8 meetings a week, probably? When I first started I was jam-packed (literally hours a day) but some of that was meet and greets and orientation type stuff.

    6. I'm that guy*

      Are you spending 25% of your working hours in meeting? 50%? Do you have to block off time on your calendar as busy so that you can do work and people can’t invite you to meetings? Do you find yourself double-booked and triple booked? Is there an end in sight or is it just how it is? Do you find yourself logging on at night so that you can work without being interrupted?

      That’s was I consider meeting heavy.

      At the beginning of Covid I was in meeting 25-50% of my work hours, but that was because we had two software upgrades and a couple of major projects that all hit at the same time and hit right as we all started to work from home. Now I am down to 1-2 hours a day (which is close to 25%) but some days I have no meetings.

      My boss has to book blocks of time as busy just so he can do is work. And it was his boss that told him to do it.

      1. cubone*

        We use Microsoft which has an automated Analytics email on that provides stats like (I’m surprised at how useful I find it).

        According to my last few months, I averaged 15-25% of my time in meetings!

      2. anonymath*

        Yep, that’s me — I block off time now so I don’t get 7+ hours of meeting, so that I can eat and visit the restroom etc, and if I have any other Real Work to do I need to block time for that.

    7. One of the Spreadsheet Horde*

      I would say it depends on the role. At my level, meeting heavy are days where I have less than 4 hours free each day for a week or so. Most of my role is individual work in spreadsheets where I need to concentrate so that much time in meetings would get frustrating. My boss is making high level decisions based on team inputs and using my spreadsheet summaries more often than building his own, so heavy for him would probably be less than 2 hours free a day for an extended period.

      I’d also consider it meeting heavy if there are frequent issues with double/triple booking or needing to schedule outside of normal hours.

    8. Gloucesterina*

      Yeah, I feel like it is relative to many factors: What is the “meat” of your role, and do the meetings generally support your progress on the meat or impede it? Are the length and substance of the meetings fixed, flexible, purposeful? For example, if the purpose of a meeting is to build rapport on a team or generate multiple ideas to solve a problem, how is are interactions structured to invite and support contributions from all participants–e.g., are people invited to contribute in different ways (video, audio, chat, email a colleague later on after having some time to think).

    10. RabbitRabbit*

      Yeah, so very culture/company dependent. I spent 4.5 hours on Wednesday in meetings and was beside myself.

      Normally I do two meetings a week that are 1-2 hours long (board meetings integral to my work), a few ‘stand-up’ meetings of maybe 10 minutes per week, and two monthly meetings of about an hour to an hour and a half.

    11. Unkempt Flatware*

      Do they meet to discuss the edits needed to be made on “Shared Doc X”? Do they meet to discuss the upcoming meeting? Do they meet to “brainstorm ideas”? For me, it matters why there are meetings. Sometimes meeting constantly is really part of the job. Sometimes it’s because someone doesn’t know how to delegate and work independently (or doesn’t like to) and the culture is now based on that.

      1. M_Lynn*

        Same. My work is very collaborative, so I’m commonly in meetings 4-6 hrs/day. It’s a lot, but that’s where the work gets done so it rarely feels like meetings are getting in the way of my work. We have maybe 2 hrs/week of all-staff type meetings. I consider “meeting heavy” to be days when I don’t have enough time to prepare for all my meetings, which obviously makes them less effective, especially the ones where I’m leading.

    12. Nesprin*

      I mean, I’m supposed to be in the lab, so having meetings 3x a day is extremely heavy for me. but moreover it’s about how decisions are made- does it require a meeting for input or can decision maker x make/delegate the decision to the appropriate person. Every damn thing requires a meeting in my institution, which feels pretty horrifically heavy.

    13. Alice Quinn*

      I feel like this is totally dependent on your job and work culture. In my previous role at the company I work at now, the nature of my work meant I would have 1-2 meetings a day tops, and more than that felt weird. In my current role, most of my day is spent in meetings. Today I have 7 meetings and it feels light.

    14. allathian*

      My job mostly involves writing on my own and requires very little synchronous collaboration. A normal week for me involves about 2-5 meetings. Sometimes only one, and if that’s canceled, I have had weeks even during this WFH period when I haven’t had any meetings scheduled at all, although they’re definitely an exception. Some of my teammates whose work requires more collaboration are double-booked often and for them, up to 5 meetings per day is not unusual.

    15. New Mom*

      Good question! This is so specific to each person. For me, I feel totally drained when I’m in more than 3.5 hours of meetings in a day. My work requires quite a bit of data entry that I cannot do in meetings so I actually have protected time on my calendar so I can’t get overbooked.
      Everyone who is a level above me is in pretty much in meetings from 9-5 so I’m not too keen on a promotion.

  17. K8*

    Hey everyone, I’m a systems engineer who has worked in the defense industry for 15 years. Looking to change industries and wondering what industries would be best (or easiest to transfer my skills). Defense has a lot of red tape and I’m tired of the classified work (had to be in the office for the majority of the pandemic). And I just really want a change. Has anyone switched out of defense? And if so, what industry did you wind up in? Thanks!

    1. No Tribble At All*

      Do you have any contacts in fields outside your classified area? If they can vouch for you, it’s easier to talk about a work history that’s mostly redacted.

      I know people who had gotten out of the classified side of defense into more aerospace-y, commercial side. If you’re a systems engineer, that’s pretty widely applicable.

    2. Should i apply?*

      I haven’t worked in defense, but I am an engineer in medical device development, and I know we have hired some engineers with a defense background. For us its a plus that you have experience having to closely follow processes which is important in medical device. Of course that doesn’t really get you away from the red tape, just a different kind.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I worked for a beltway bandit for a number of years. Other parts of the government – federal and state/local – are a relatively easy transition, but there’s still a lot of red tape.

      I suggest you look at the kinds of things you were working on, and go find a civilian equivalent. F-35 radar to weather radar; DoD networking to other kinds of networking that are security heavy (banks, critical infrastructure, medicine). That’s how my company diversified – and you’d just be diversifying yourself.

      Professional societies with lots of DoD workers often have lots of resources for transitioning out; as do the DoD uniformed & civilian workforces.

    4. Yellow Warbler*

      Construction/manufacturing and O&G are good bets, but both are very old-fashioned/red.

    5. Rufus the 26 pound orange tabby*

      I’ve noticed that there are many jobs recently for engineers in the aero tech industry (including satellites and space). They really love people with a security clearance!

    6. Wisteria*

      There are LOTS of systems outside the defense industry. Look around at all the things you use, many of them are systems, they all needed a system engineer in the design process. Just search on Indeed in your area for “system engineer.”

      You can also search on any specific skills, like requirements development, verification, architecting, etc., whatever you happen to have done.

  18. Jenna-Benna*

    In an interview, how do I best explain why I’m looking to relocate back to my hometown after just six months in a new role I accepted in a town about 1,000 miles away? I paid for my own move. The town I moved from is very progressive and the new town I currently live in is not.

    1. ecnaseener*

      Since it’s your hometown, you could go with any variant of “I realized I really miss it here,” “I grew up here and living elsewhere has made me realize how much I appreciate this town,” “I want to be closer to family,” etc.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I’d explain it just the way you did here. How they react will tell you a lot about the workplace culture.

      1. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

        Eh, I would say “realize I miss my family” rather than “new town is not progressive.” The latter makes it seem like the OP didn’t do her homework before moving and/or is kinda impulsive.

        1. TWW*

          Also, unless OP’s hometown is the most progressive place in the country, it might then be only a matter of time before OP moved again to some place even more progressive.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I wouldn’t mention politics, honestly. “It turns out I really don’t like the location, especially compared to Town A.”

    5. TWW*

      The prevailing politics of the region may be the reason you’re moving, but doesn’t need to be the reason you tell the interviewer.

      They’re probably more interested in knowing if you’re likely to move again in 6 months, and you need to reassure them that you’re not. “I accepted [my current job] because it was an excellent opportunity, but I realized that I prefer living in [hometown] because my friends and family live here.”

      1. Fran Fine*

        They’re probably more interested in knowing if you’re likely to move again in 6 months, and you need to reassure them that you’re not.

        Agreed (and I like your script too).

    6. VI Guy*

      I had a similar situation, although I stayed in New Town for longer. I didn’t have to explain the move in an interview, but I did tell new coworkers that I had wanted to live somewhere else to try new things, and discovered that my Old Town had more new things to offer. New town was a better place to visit than live, and made me appreciate Old Town much more.

      Old Town for me is diverse, which is what I thought progressive meant and not related to politics.

  19. Looking*

    Should I ask former managers/colleagues at my current company to be my references if we all still work at the company? Or is that just asking for word to get out that I’m looking?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      How much do you trust them? At every workplace I’ve been while job searching, I always am very cautious about whom I tell that I’m looking. If you trust your former manager not to tell your current manager (or anyone else), go for it.

      1. ferrina*

        +1 I usually look for someone who has moved on from the company but can speak well about my work. Whoever you use, ask yourself if they have a habit of being discreet.

  20. Primavera*

    Our company is rolling out our remote policies over the next month and they’re not great. We’re actually going to have less flexibility than we did prior to COVID and the rationale isn’t strong.

    As a middle manager, how much should I fake being okay with this in front of my direct reports? I know they’re going to be unhappy, and I’m unhappy too, but it’s out of my control.

    1. EndlessWorry*

      It’s a fine line for sure, but as someone who’s been subject to fake positivity from managers in similar situations, I just think it creates more of a barrier with your reports. There’s a way to phrase this that shows you know it’s not ideal, but without contributing to a pessimistic mood. E.g. “I know these policies are not ideal, we’ll work together to find solutions to team needs within these limitations” or something like that.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Don’t fake enthusiasm. You don’t have to fake solidarity either by going over the top with “I’m with you all, and upper management doesn’t know what it’s doing.” You can explain what upper management’s reasons are, and state that you don’t agree with those reasons.

    4. JelloStapler*

      I’m sorry to hear it, sounds like they are doing it just to do it. Don’t fake it, that is rife with toxic positivity, making others feel like they have no right to be upset or speak up.

    5. IL JimP*

      as a manager when I’ve had stuff I knew wasn’t going to go over well I would just do it as more matter of fact and not try to spin it

      The policy is X
      Team Complains about it
      I understand your frustration but moving forward we’re going to have to do XYZ

    6. Sparkles McFadden*

      Just state the facts. It’s not your job to sell the idea to everyone (nor is it the time to trash management). Just let the staff know what the new guidelines are. If/when there’s griping, just say “I know this is not the best situation, but it’s the situation we’re dealing with.”

  21. Hello Friends*

    This is somewhat unrelated but would love to get other opinions. I work for a state trade association and we send out weekly/monthly newsletters to our membership with the latest news in our industry. For many years, we have used Constant Contact. With the new Microsoft Office 365 “Quarantine,” no one is receiving our emails. Since the new feature was launched, our open rate has dropped by about 20%. I was just wondering if anyone had better suggestions for email distribution services that might be able to actually get into inboxes. Thank you!

    1. Alex*

      I don’t have any advice, but a LOT of commiseration. Microsoft has been preventing me from getting some really important emails over the past couple of months!! And people I’ve sent things to haven’t received them. It’s driving me batty and has slowed down our overall work. UGH.

      1. Hello Friends*

        Ugh right!? Don’t get me wrong, I hate spam going to my inbox, but this is way worse. I’ve missed three or four interview requests for my organization because when I initially saw the “quarantine” email I assumed it was spam. And we are a trade association for a sector of the healthcare industry so its not like we are sending out fluff pieces, we are sending out “if you don’t do this brand new regulation, you will be getting fined.”

    2. JanetM*

      I don’t know exactly how it works, and it may not be applicable to you or you might already be doing this, but you might check with the people who manage your email if your organization is using DMARC/DKIM/SPF. (You now know everything I do about this. It came up in a project I managed, but the email admins did all the work on it.)

        1. Mad Harry Crewe*

          My organization uses DKIM and SPF. I’m not sure how applicable they will be in this case, but I’m only aware of one specific application of these tools. In my case, the recipient organization needs to update their email security to recognize and accept the sender’s SPF and DKIM.

          SPF is basically a way of saying “emails sent to us from this outside origin are cool” (so it’s only on the recipient side, once the initial ‘this is how the SPF system identifies us as an origin’ setup is done) and DKIM is is a way of proving that an email originated where it says it did. The sender generates a key with a public part that goes in the recipient’s system, and all emails sent will carry the sender’s half of the key, which is matched up. So if an email arrived that claimed to come from Server X, but it’s DKIM didn’t match up with Server X’s public DKIM key, the recipient system would know it was a spoofed origin and reject it.

    3. WellRed*

      I don’t even know what this but I noticed I’m getting very few responses to emails all of a sudden. Will google.

  22. EndlessWorry*

    Any advice on not worrying endlessly about a background check after a big-deal job offer? I have no criminal record but my work history is kind of complex (lots of businesses merging/buying each other out so it’s been hard to track down employment verification contacts, and I had a couple of short stints at companies because I wanted to do something else). I’m terrified somehow the offer is going to fall through because I got something wrong in the info I entered.

    1. Colette*

      Background checks take longer than you expect, especially if your work history is complex. That doesn’t mean it’ll be a problem, just that it’ll take a while. I once had a background check take … 3 weeks, I think? when I was already in the office doing the job on contract. I was mostly concerned my contract was going to lapse and I’d have to get all of my accounts recreated.

      Put it out of your mind; proceed with job hunting as if you won’t get the job.

    2. TimeTravlR*

      I doubt it will be an issue. I had a lot of little jobs here and there for a time too and have passed multiple (some very high level) background checks. The people who do them know how to fit the puzzle together. Also, if there is something they wonder about (like you entered dates wrong and they don’t match up with what the employer reported), they will ask about it and you can explain, “Oh, that was so long ago! I am sure they got it right and I got it wrong.” But I would say as long as you don’t have any criminal stuff you’re trying to hide (they will find it!), you will be fine.

    3. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      It seems like something you could email your HR contact/recruiter about. Maybe something along the lines of “as you know, there’s been a lot of mergers and acquisitions in the llama grooming industry in the past decade, so some of my former employer companies have changed name, structure, etc., and many of my professional contacts have moved around accordingly. Let me know if I can help with any of the employment verification process if it presents a challenge.”

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      The background check for my current job wasn’t especially long but it was nerve-wracking. One company doesn’t exist anymore and first it wasn’t a problem, then it was. I was prepared with all of the documents I needed (offer letter, separation letter, W2s, etc) so all worked out but it did suck! I also got my grad school dates wrong but that wasn’t even a blip for them.

      Get your docs in order so if questions come up, you’ll be prepared. I even asked the recruiter what would happen if there were “issues” and she said things came up all the time and it wasn’t a major problem.

    5. Nikki*

      The company will most likely not reject you outright if something doesn’t match up. They’ll contact you and ask for clarification and they’ll be pretty lenient about things that were clearly mistakes on your part vs. obviously trying to hide something. My job history is kinda complicated to verify because every company I’ve ever worked for has since been acquired or merged with another company, and one company no longer exists and its owner died. The last time I got a new job, they did their best to verify everything and anything they had trouble with I was able to provide them with tax documents and contact information for people who could help verify employment. It wasn’t a problem and I started the new job on time.

    6. Cat Tree*

      I had a similar complex work history, partly due to short internships in college which were still within the time range of the check. It’s really not a big deal. They will call you and work with you. I think I ended up sharing some tax return info to prove I worked at a place that they couldn’t hunt down. (I didn’t love sharing that but since they already even more sensitive info about me it was just a drop in the bucket.)

      Anyway, to feel better about it remind yourself that everyone involved wants your background check to work out. The employer invested a lot of effort to find the right candidate, so it’s in their interest to be patient rather than start the process over. And the company that does background checks is hired by your future employer so they want to complete their work to keep getting hired to do background checks. At this point it benefits everyone involved to do the work of sorting through your work history.

    7. Carol*

      I am always afraid of this! The only thing that has ever come up was for one job. I listed a teaching role as 2 consecutive years when it was 2 separate 9 month contracts…I just thought of them as continuous since they were part of a 2-year degree and were guaranteed to renew rather than a “let’s see in a year” kind of thing. But the recruiter reached out and let me know right away when that happened and I explained it, and it was fine.

      So even when something does trip it up, it’s usually a technicality or something.

    8. MacGillicuddy*

      Some companies I worked for don’t exist any more- bought out, taken over, folded, etc. Never had any trouble with background checks.

  23. Travel Anon*

    Does anybody have insights on working a job that requires travel while being a parent to toddlers/infants? My current employer is great in just about every way imaginable and offers a lot of flexibility, but once a week (in normal times) I either have really long days on the road or spend the night in a hotel. I don’t have kids yet but plan on starting a family within the next few years, so I’m weighing the pros & cons of staying. My team is small and the only one that travels, so I can’t turn to coworkers for tips. I’m especially interested in thoughts on the infant stage and breastfeeding/pumping with that kind of schedule.

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Will you be raising them with a live-in coparent? A lot of advice will change based on that, and on the specifics of how you divide things up. My spouse and I both traveled for work when our spawn was an infant/toddler, although it wasn’t really required, and it was only 1-2 times a year. It is, of course, a bit more stressful for the parent left at home, but it was also nice in some ways for me to have that one-on-one time with the kid. My spouse did pump and freeze enough for those days, which some people can do over time, it depends, though. For me, it really started to wear thin after 3-4 days, though. And the spouse coming home from a work trip might be expected to do more of the infant/child care to relieve the parent who stayed at home, even though you’ll be tired and needing a break after your trip!

      1. Beka Cooper*

        Agreed with all of the above. I’ve never had to travel for my job, but my husband did pre-covid, and it got tiring doing all of the daycare pickups and dropoffs for a week. I do have in-laws who help too.

        I only was away from my kids overnight once while in the breastfeeding stage, and I did think it was a pain in the butt to have to wake up in the middle of the night to pump. However, one thing that gave us more flexibility with our second kid to leave them with grandparents for a day excursion was buying a car adapter for the pump’s power supply. So that could be a useful accessory if you’re traveling by car a lot!

        I also seem to remember hearing things about people traveling by plane running into issues with carrying breastmilk on board, if it was over the limit of liquid allowed. So maybe something to check into if you travel by plane at all for work!

      2. Travel Anon*

        Thank you! Live in coparent, but no other family network nearby. This is all very helpful, I appreciate it!

    2. TimeTravlR*

      My neighbor had to travel internationally some while her baby was still breastfeeding. Her employer got her a special bag so she could freeze and ship it if she was gone an extended time!
      In your case, for just overnights, I would just say build your support network before it’s a thing. Whether it’s your partner, family, very trusted neighbors. It’s always good to have a plan, and a back up plan!

    3. rachel in nyc*

      I had a trainer who in a previous incarnation worked in the corporate world and travelled a lot when her daughter was young. She had a family member who either travelled with her to watch her daughter or stayed home and cared for her daughter, since she was a single parent.

    4. Sled dog mama*

      I traveled 50% from when my oldest was 16 months to when she was almost 3. My travel was flying to a different site two time zones away.
      From a parent perspective I’m both happy and sad I did it.
      The time I was home with her and my husband was great because I got a lot better at leaving work at work. I also missed things, my husband and I had an agreement (since he was SAHD from birth) that he didn’t tell me about firsts and let me discover them on my own.
      One of my daughter’s first sentences was “I FaceTime you?” a clear product of the regular FaceTime calls when I was away.
      It can be done but it’s hard work and requires really good communication between you and whoever else is caring for the child.

      1. Zzzzzzz*

        I did a summer (10ish weeks? Maybe 14?) traveling one day a week, with an under-one. Sometimes it was later at night for an early meeting, and other times it was a 6am flight getting back at 10pm. The issue was being so tired because I couldn’t let my husband do all the overnight wake-ups. If you’re used to traveling though, it might need up being regular baby exhaustion.

        Also, bottle feeding is a great option for lots of people! All the science says fed, loved babies are what matters. If you love breast feeding, great! Pumps can travel with you; plenty of my friends did it. But if you don’t, bottle feeding is great! Me and plenty of my friends did that. Also you don’t have to decide now- I’ve had friends who thought they’d go one way, and changed their preferences later. You can’t really know. (And if you emotionally commit to one- or any parenting thing, really- you make it harder to adjust later when you see what works for your family.)

        I think having a family-friendly company/coworkers and a job you like are more important than travel.

        Another thought elementary aged kids seem to be more upset about travel- they miss you. Babies and toddlers are only slightly more advanced than goldfish in terms of memory. YMMV but that’s been true for my kids so far.

        1. Travel Anon*

          This is all great, thank you! And oh yes, I am completely open to formula (either exclusively or to supplement) so I’m not fully committed to any specific plan, just collecting as much anecdata while I have the luxury of time :) This is all very helpful, I appreciate you all taking the time to respond with your experiences!

    5. Policy Wonk*

      An employer who offers flexibility is worth its weight in gold when you have kids. I would take that over a no-travel job any day!

      I traveled a lot when my kids were little. With a supportive partner and good day care we made it work. My travel was international, so was often a week at a time. We had to coordinate schedules, and day care (later teachers) needed a heads up because children are sad when mom is gone, but it is doable.

      I also note that I only breastfed a few months for non-work related reasons, and didn’t travel until I had stopped, so can’t help you there. But I brought the pump and regalia to work with me while I was doing it. Having a private office helped with that. My office now also has breastfeeding rooms.

    6. Secret identity for this one*

      When my kids were born, I stopped traveling and almost entirely stopped working late hours.

      My wife and I discovered that when you are the only parent at home with a baby or toddler, you literally count the hours and minutes until the other parent comes home. There were a few times when each of us had to do an overnight alone with the kids, but it was stressful and we would not have wanted to make it a regular occurrence.

      The decision to stop travelling probably stalled my career, but I don’t regret it. The first several years of the kids’ lives, when we were both prioritizing family over jobs, were by far the happiest years of our relationship (which eventually failed).

    7. Carol*

      Well…this is different for everyone, and clearly a lot of parents make it work…personally, I would not work a job requiring travel during the infant stage due to constant sheer exhaustion and the difficulty of doing anything remotely “extra” for a while. I also would not have wanted that separation from my infant because already you “never” see them if you’re commuting to a typical 8-5 job except nights and weekends. For the first 6-9 months I would not have wanted that kind of separation. Pumping was already grueling but would have been a footnote to the general exhaustion and need to stay close to the baby. Once they’re a toddler I think it’s a bit different. Plus, routine solo care of an infant/toddler can be rough if it’s constantly up to one spouse to fill the gap.

      It’s tough because you may not know how you feel about it until you’re in it, as you can’t always predict how you’ll feel in the midst of parenting, and you never know the personality of the baby in advance, either. But, yeah…beyond the logistical questions, you may just not want to leave your baby that often or have the additional stressor of travel during a profoundly stressful time. YMMV.

    8. Malarkey01*

      It varies..a lot…on the structure of the travel and the child. That said one overnight a week sounds easier than my weeklong trips once a month. With my second my husband and I just socially did a “me night” once a week where we took turns going out with friends or doing some hobby and the other one was full time kid care. That mirrors your travel a lot and it was easy to do as long as spouse is on board and you can even work together to make that night easier by having food prepped or a don’t worry about the house being clean or whatever plan that night.

      For longer travel I told work that traveling for the first 9 months was non negotiable and if that was required I understood but would need to move on. For me the effort of getting everything set for an infant and dealing with feeding and just the mental fog I was already in, I couldn’t add more to my plate. For some though the infant time is easier than the toddler time when it was easier for me because we did full time daycare by then and shhhh but I actually enjoyed having a little break and a bed all to myself and no one yelling when I was in the shower so didn’t hate the travel (but other people I know did so it’s really a personal thing).

  24. Marian The Librarian*

    Does anyone have a MSLIS and or library background that transitioned to another field? I have experience in Records Management and digitizing documents, but has anyone used to their background in another field/area?

    1. kicking_k*

      Uh, not really. I did, too, wanted to work in archives rather than RM, and now I do. While I was hunting my mother kept dropping suggestions that if I didn’t find something soon I should go back to office admin, which I did have previous background in. (I didn’t want to!)

      I know people who’ve gone sideways into consulting or data officer roles, and one who now designs training on digital archiving/RM. Not too many people who’ve gone into a different field altogether.

    2. TimeTravlR*

      The federal govt (US and likely other countries!) all rely on people with records management understanding and experience. You might try there!

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      I have not, but I have known several people who have either gone into totally different fields, become book dealers or worked for vendors of other products. What are you hoping to learn?

    4. cubone*

      I worked with a lot of librarians/MSLIS in the community information and referral field (think systems navigation for communities and healthcare, 2-1-1 services, etc.) There’s a certifications (AIRS) for it.

    5. Msnotmrs*

      In my state, there are a decent number of jobs at the state govt level with transferable skills. Archival work at the state historical society, rules and regulations work.

    6. Maintaining my amateur status for the privacy olympics*

      My early career work was in libraries in a paraprofessional capacity in a library. When I moved across the country from that job I transitioned into legal tech work – e-discovery project management, and then later compliance consulting. I think there is a lot of crossover to other industries, but it’s going to depend a lot on what you want to do and how good your tech skills are. Is there an industry you’re particularly focusing on?

    7. Overbooked*

      Retired librarian here. One former colleague – this was at a large state university – went from tech services to a position as student liaison/advocate at the U’s medical school. Years later, a manager at the public library where I worked changed to a career in logistics/materials movement.

  25. No Tribble At All*

    TLDR: boss straight-up said if we go over budget, I’m the first to go, how do I calm down

    I started a new job about 2 months ago. There’s a year-long training period before you can do everything without supervision (it’s typical for my field). So, even though we’ve had a lot of overtime this past month because Stuff Got Busy, I still haven’t been able to do much. The team lead had a conversation with our supervisor about the amount of overtime, and at what point they should send the trainees home for the day (because it’s not useful to have us around if we can’t contribute, and we all should avoid billing overtime). Boss mentioned that if we go over the contract’s budget, he’ll be forced to let people go, starting with the most recent.

    Which is me! I’m the most recent! And now I can’t stop freaking out! I have no idea how close we are to “over budget” for the contract. We end up needing to do overtime through no fault of our own (suddenly get a bunch of requests at 4:50 pm, and the team has to complete them before we leave). So in some ways we’re understaffed because we don’t have enough *certified* people, but in other ways we’re overstaffed because we have extra trainees shadowing the team leads. I’m now super anxious about this, especially because I’m a subcontractor, so I don’t know if there’s another role in this contract my actual company (the subcontractor) could move me to, or if I’d have to they would keep me on and find me a new contract somewhere else, and, like…. I get why layoffs would be LIFO, but then why hire me in the first place if we’re that close to going over?

    How do I talk to my boss (at the prime contractor, not at my subcontractor company) about this? Am I vastly overreacting? Am I sorta overreacting? How/should I talk to my subcontractor boss about this? “Heeeeey I heard if other people have to take too much overtime, the project will have to let me go, is that for real?”

    1. Excel Jedi*

      Start applying elsewhere.

      If you talk to your boss, he’s going to either (a) tell you this is the way things go in your field, and it’s not personal, or (b) tell you not to worry and that everything’s going to be alright. Option B would likely be a lie, because if he doesn’t have the money to pay you, he’ll let you go.

      It sounds like your job isn’t secure, so I’d be looking for one that offered more security.

    2. ferrina*

      Oh, that’s awful! You are not overreacting. That is serious.

      I’d do 2 things:
      1. Dust off that resume. It sucks that you’d have to be applying elsewhere just 2 months in, but I’d want to be prepared. And like you said, why would they hire you if they know they are that close to going over budget?? That would make me worry about how they are managing the budget and what problems I’m not seeing. So I’d start applying quickly, addressing in my cover letter the reason that I’m moving on so quickly.

      2. Ask your boss outright. “Hey, you said that if we come close to the budget, layoffs will need to start. You and I both know that I’m first in line for that. What are some of the metrics I should keep an eye on to know if we are close to budget? And in what ways can I best contribute to ensure that doesn’t happen?” You need to be careful- while a good boss will understand why you are worried, a not-good boss may see it as treason. Focusing on what you can do to avoid going over budget can help assuage this- you are looking for opportunities to help the team, not trying to figure out if you would leave! (ideally you shouldn’t have to do this dance, but it might be necessary with some bosses). With a bad boss, unfortunately, it’s safest not to ask at all.

    3. No Tribble At All*

      Update: I talked to both my team lead and my manager and they clarified that I’d misheard, we’re currently under budget and not projected to go over, and we’d have to go severely over budget for me to be in danger. I trust their honesty because I know for a fact the manager is incapable of lying (he has no brain/mouth filter). The restrictions on overtime are in effect, but that means people shift their hours if necessary.

      So, heart attack averted :) I thought of what Alison would say: use your words and talk to your managers.

      1. Lyudie*

        Phew!!! Glad you talked with them and got clarification. If you’re like me you’d be fretting all weekend, now you can enjoy it :)

  26. bubbleon*

    I was promoted a few weeks ago and the team I managed was handed off to someone else who completely ignored every piece of information I provided about strengths, weaknesses, and how to keep things running smoothly. My former team’s been struggling ever since, to the point where I’ve been in multiple meetings this week where they were brought up as the biggest pain point other coworkers have had this month.

    I’ve made it very clear that I’m available to help whenever they need it, but even the suggestions I made during the handoff were overlooked so they seem pretty sure they’re not interested in hearing from me. I don’t want to tell the new manager how to do their job, but I want my former team to succeed and (selfishly, I know) they’re making me hate being associated with them at all. It sounds like I left a mess on the way out the door when I did everything I could to avoid exactly this. Ugh, happy Friday.

    1. Former Usher*

      I know this doesn’t address your problem, but congratulations on your promotion!

    2. ferrina*

      I am so sorry. That sucks, but there’s nothing you can do to help your former team.

      You need to safeguard your own reputation. When you hear of issues, look surprised! “That’s so strange that they’re running in to that! I made sure to train them in my processes before I left….you know, I wonder if they decided to experiment with a new process. I have no idea.” You need to 1) show that it’s a shock that things went so wrong because 2) you clearly prepped everything for a smooth transition but 3) you’re not there any more and have no say in what on earth is happening now.

      1. bubbleon*

        Thanks, I’ve dropped a few of those into meetings throughout the month and actually had a slightly more detailed conversation with my manager early this week about it, so I think I’m covered on that side but I do probably need to be a little more aware of how it’s impacting other peoples’ opinions of me/my involvement with that team.

  27. My Own Enemy*

    My Situation (lengthy):

    Direct report went fully remote w/ covid and I think plans to try to continue fully remote. This week, things have been happening with them that have frustrated me and taken up a lot of my time, e.g.

    * not being able to get into a VERY IMPORTANT remote meeting *AND* not letting me know they couldn’t until about 7 minutes in when I reached out to see WTF was the problem. This resulted in us both missing about 1/4 of the meeting, and having to interrupt the presenter and IT person who was in the meeting for help.

    * putting their appointments, vacation, etc. on their calendar, but not indicating they are busy, out of the office, etc. They did not now they should/could do this so I had to tell them how. This is extremely important when being remote since we now use this feature to schedule meetings, so I was trying to schedule a meeting with my staff (knowing she was on vacation) but she kept showing up as free.

    * using only one monitor at home (whatever – they told us we could take a second monitor to use), which I didn’t realize was such a big deal until yesterday we were all on a remote meeting and they were delaying the meeting (which they already rolled in late to) to print a spreadsheet that we were using – I urged them not to do so, they said they didn’t have a second screen and had to, and then had to cancel printing b/c they realized the file was so big it was not going to fit on a letter sized paper (which I had tried to tell them)

    * the straw that broke the camels back: even before covid, I have asked and asked and reminded this person to set an out of office message if they are going to be out a full day or longer. they go on vacation. i send an email to a group of people, including them. i get no out of office response back. this person used to be hourly, then moved to salary, and is now hourly again and when i’ve brought it up with them before, they’ve said “it’s no big deal, I just check my email on my phone and can forward you anything important” NO NO NO NO NO.

    * there are other things that frustrate me – and it’s my fault for letting it go on so long. I think I am just going to copy/paste all this in my notebook and have a conversation about why them going fully remote forever concerns me

    1. Person from the Resume*

      I’d sit them down (virtually, I guess) and provide the feedback. Tell them that if they do not correct these issues that they will need to return to the office when it reopens or if it is open give them a few weeks to correct the issues or return to the office.

      Only two of these are remote specific (I’m assuming they could attend a meeting in person), others would be a problem in the office too, but it is completely reasonable to say “You are not performing well. Here are 5-# examples of you not performing well. As a poor performer you will need to work from the office.”

    2. pancakes*

      It sounds like this person is quite inattentive in ways that would also be a problem if they were in the office. People who are bad at keeping their calendar updated, for example, or about remembering to turn on an out-of-office reply when needed, have always been a bit of problem.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Yeah. – this isn’t a “remote” issue, this is a “this person doesn’t follow your instructions” issue.

      2. JelloStapler*

        Many of those issues translate to communication and being part of a team, remote or not.

      3. violet04*

        Yep, you need to have a conversation with them on what is expected of them for their role. It may get to the point where they are on a PIP and you need to be prepared to enforce the consequences. Also, sorry you’re dealing with this. It sounds incredibly frustrating.

    3. SomebodyElse*

      Do you have discretion over who on your team works remotely? When my company implemented a telework policy, it was still manager’s ultimate call if they would allow it for an individual. I had one who I did not let go remote, because they were iffy at best when they were in the office.

      I will admit I was wrong about their ability to stay productive as they were fine during the shutdowns. Since you’ve seen your employee in action I would just not allow it.

      Yes, you should have had the conversations and the coaching as things came up, but do it now with the phrase, “I’ve noticed a pattern”

    4. IL JimP*

      I don’t want to minimize your frustration because I would be frustrated too but other than being late to the meeting the rest is annoying and requires coaching but not really a huge deal.

      I think they need a very direct conversation about reliability to meetings because that’s not acceptable and a more generalize coaching conversation about what the requirements are of the job including equipment and using scheduling software

      All this to say this isn’t really a remote issue it’s more of training/coaching issue. The problem would likely still happen (other than the monitor thing) if the person was in the office

      1. Ice scream*

        Yeah, where I work nobody cares if you put busy or out of office on your calendar.

    5. Sparkles McFadden*

      These are all performance issues that need to be addressed. They’re not related to the employee working remotely. Address the issues the same way you would address an issue with an in-office direct report.

      Let’s say an in-office employee were scheduled to give a presentation and didn’t bother to set everything up in advance of the meeting ,resulting in the meeting being pushed back and finally cancelled. That’s about the same as not getting into the remote meeting or having issues with opening necessary files. The email and calendar scheduling…all the same issues that you’d have with an in-office employee.

      In other words, address the performance issues clearly and don’t muddy anything by bringing up remote vs. in-office.

    6. Jules the 3rd*

      It sounds like you have 2 categories of problems:
      – Remote access to important meetings etc
      – Them letting others know about their schedules

      Remote access is 100% only an issue if they work remotely, and you should check whether they’ve gotten better at it.

      The scheduling thing would be a problem *whether or not they’re in the office*. If you’re scheduling a meeting for next week, you need to see availability on their calendar.

      If it were me, I would try to separate those two issues, and I’d prioritize the scheduling, while monitoring the remote access. Have the conversation and be clear that the scheduling has to happen, whether they are from home or in office.

      Good luck.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      This employee must understand that:

      –Being on time for meetings is mandatory.
      –Using her calendar to show availability is mandatory.
      –Having a second screen is mandatory.
      –They must use an OOO message, it’s mandatory.

      To me this sounds like she did not get a good orientation to her job. With the exception of being on time for meetings, I would not intuitively know these things as I do not use them in my current job. I would need to be told directly.

      So my next thought is, what are you doing when you tell her?
      “it’s no big deal, I just check my email on my phone and can forward you anything important”
      This calls for clearer language from her supervisor/boss.
      “Yes, it is a big deal. The way we work here we are very dependent on the OOO messages. Therefore I would like you to set yours up and get it working by [day/time].”

      If she still says NO, then she is heading toward insubordination. You can go with, “I am asking you to set up your OOO message and use it. Will you do that?”

      I actually feel kind of sorry for her because it sounds like no one bothered to help her orient to her workplace.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        It sounds like there is also a fundamental misunderstanding on the employee’s part of what is and is not allowed when they are hourly. Doing work when they are supposed to be off is not something hourly people are supposed to do (or rather, they have to be paid for it).

        But all of it sounds like the employee needs to be told to be on time, communicate issues proactively, and manage normal office notifications (busy, OOO) because those are requirements of the job, not personal preferences. If they still struggle after these explicit discussions / PIP, then they aren’t a good fit and should be managed out.

  28. Stormfly*

    So, I just got word that I’m not being promoted from an individual contributor role to a manager role this year, and I’m wondering if anyone has any perspectives regarding whether I should stick it out, or whether it’s time to find a new job.
    I’ve been on a project for months that involved 12 to 14 hours a day multiple days a week and some weekend work, and earlier in the year I was involved in shorter projects that involved similar time commitment.
    My feedback has been great, and I had a conversation about my promotion prospects with my grandboss about it a couple of months ago, When I asked if there was anything else I needed to be doing, I was told I was on the right track, I just needed to keep doing a good job for the remainder of the project. As far as I’m aware, my performance hasn’t changed since then; certainly I haven’t heard anything close to negative since.
    The reason given was that I need more experience at the type of project I’m in at the moment before I move up, but the project I’m being moved onto next is more of what I’ve been doing for the last few years, which apparently isn’t the kind of experience that matters. So, I’m concerned that despite promises, nothing’s going to be different next year. And I’m feeling pretty let down that this was only flagged after the decision was made, and there’s nothing I can do about it.
    So, is it time to go? I’m lucky to be in an industry with an abundance of jobs, so it wouldn’t be difficult to find a job with a >20% pay increase.
    On the other hand, the work we do for our client actively benefits our society; if I was to leave, I could probably only aspire to a job that doesn’t negatively impact society.
    And I’ve got a really good network in the company, I haven’t worked anywhere else. I’d have to start from scratch if I left. Though I’m wondering if that reason why I’m hesitant is actually reason why I should leave, should I be pushing myself more by going somewhere unfamiliar?

    Any perspectives would be helpful, particularly anyone who felt that staying at the individual contributor level a little longer actually helped their career in the long run. (That’s the benefit of this that I was sold on, so it would be great to know if there’s something to it.)

    1. Colette*

      Do you want to be a manager? It’s a very different job, most of the time.

      What’s most important to you? Do you want the promotion because it is the work you want to be doing, or is it money or status that makes you interested in it?

      There’s nothing wrong with looking around to see what your options are.

      1. Stormfly*

        Yes, I’m fairly certain I do. (Obviously can’t be a completely sure until I’ve done it fulltime.) This is the kind of company that won’t promote you to a job until you’ve been taking on the responsibilities of the job at least part time well in advance. So, I’ve quite a bit of experience with project planning, work management, prioritisation, stakeholder management, coaching, etc. I really like the coaching side of it, and I know that the people management side is the big thing that puts some people off.

    2. Tuckerman*

      Why not apply to some places and see what lands? You don’t have to leave, but you might find something you like.

      1. Stormfly*

        That’s probably the smart thing to do. The issue is that I’m so exhausted; the idea of putting together personalised CVs, cover letters, etc., just to put feelers out feels like a lot right now.
        That’s how they keep you I suppose, keep you working so hard you’re too tired to look elsewhere!

        But I’ve got some leave coming up, I should probably use that time to put some work into it.

        1. ferrina*

          During your leave, draft a template CV and cover letter. I’ve got a Master Resume that is 3.5 pages long, but then I delete irrelevant bullets/jobs for each job I apply to, and I never need to re-write anything. Ditto with cover letter- write ~6 paragraphs that cover main things that you might say in a cover letter, then when you go to write a cover letter, you can start by picking three paragraphs that are pre-written and need minimal tailoring. It is such a sanity saver!

          1. Sparkles McFadden*

            I do this too. I also make sure I am constantly updating my master documents so I don’t forget about new items that make great bullet points.

          2. Stormfly*

            Seems like a good place to start. And even if I don’t put it to use right away, at least the task of putting it together at a future time will be less daunting.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          They keep you too tired to look for a new job in your off hours?
          They put you on a task that is not where you need experience?

          Move on. Seriously.

          I know better but it feels like you are working for my former employer. They will keep you where you are at because you do it bestest, fastest, whatever.

          I bet if you talk around you will find that other employees have heard the same bait and switch stuff.

          You know, it’s really nice to feel needed and it’s really nice to feel like you are making a contribution- until one day, years later, you wake up and realize you are still working as hard and you are just running from one fire to another putting out fires. Nothing has change. Suddenly those feelings of being needed and making a contribution shift to feeling used and feeling stretched beyond comprehension.

          I got a big heads up that I ignored. I noticed my peers lasted about 8 years and then they moved on. Because I am dense, I went 11 years. Don’t do this. It’s okay to believe what you see around you and it’s okay to take action accordingly.

          1. bookartist*

            +1. I could have written the above except I’m on year 6 and should have moved on at year 4.

            1. The New Wanderer*

              Me too, only I’m at 14 years and most of my peers were promoted several years ago while it’s only now becoming an option for me (and only because I’m about to hand in my notice). I’m staying within the industry so I can keep most of my network, which is reassuring. But yeah, time to get out to grow.

          2. Stormfly*

            Yes, I definitely have friends who’ve left the company with the same story. Being strung along for months and years, and only actually acting on finding them the role they’ve wanted once they hand in their notice.
            It’s definitely a company with high turn over. Maybe 10% of the people I started with are still around, and I’m in the early-mid career stage.
            I’ve been told that I can take it easy next year, I can clock out on time every day and it won’t count against me for next year’s promotion cycle. If I could trust that that was true, fair enough, but I’ve had promises of quiet periods after tough projects before, and they’ve rarely materialised.

            1. ten four*

              Hmm, sounds like “jam tomorrow” to me. This promotion path was a nice clear line in the sand, and they went from “on track” to “no, but you’ll get there…later! Probably!” That’s not even counting your observations of other employees and this whole nonsense about “next year you won’t have to work long hours!”

              I get being tired and not wanting to deal with it, but I’d dedicate some of your leave time to putting your resume out there. A 20% pay increase is nothing to sneeze at. And – I hate to be awful about this – a strong network within your company wasn’t enough to get you a promotion despite your excellent performance.

              I’d get my promotion some place else, and then maybe later you can come back to your current place at a higher level. :)

      2. ferrina*

        +1 I think it’s time to look around and see what you can find. Sounds like you aren’t fully committed to leaving, but sometimes it’s good to start looking before you are crying/screaming/driven Lady Macbeth-style mad!

        Based on your comment, it sounds like this is what your job looks like-
        Cons: You aren’t getting the promotion and career development you want, and you aren’t getting career opportunities they promise you; you’re underpaid; you’re regularly working 12-14 hour days (!)
        Pros: Your job has a positive benefit for society, and you know people at your current job.

        Note- if you have a network at your current job, it usually means that you have the skills you need to build a new network at a new job.

        1. Stormfly*

          When you write it like that is seems like a no-brainer.

          Yet, I still don’t want to want to leave, if that makes sense? I’m someone who doesn’t seek out change in general (though I do adapt well to it when it occurs). So, I’m worried that that wanting to stick it out is me giving into my instincts in a way that’s clouding my reason, and is going to harm my career development in the medium and long term.

          So, having a look around seems like a good idea. Being able to compare my job with a concrete offer will put things into perspective more than thinking about it in the abstract.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Because I have had my own version of this story- a good question to ask yourself is “stick it out –for what?” They have already denied you the promotion you wanted. They gave the lame excuse about needing more experience with X, then they took X away from you. This is called being set up to fail.

            Aim for a company that is interested in watching you grow and develop and puts things in your path so you CAN.

            I understand the devil you know is better than the devil you don’t know. Having come out the other side of this one, I also have the clarity to see that working just about any place else would probably have been better for me. I should have moved sooner. These places can wear us down in ways that we never anticipated.

          2. ferrina*

            I hear this so much! Knowing you need to leave isn’t the same as feeling you need to leave (if that makes sense?). From my experience, I’ve waited until I felt the need to leave, and by that point I was suffering severe stress, burnout and just going mad from the frustration. Definitely not at my best for a job search, and more inclined to take the first thing that came my way, whether or not it was a good fit. I’ve learned to start searching when I first know that I need to leave, even if I’m not feeling it yet, because job searches can be long and it gives me time to be picky in which job I ultimately get.

            Just looking around can help put things in perspective. Good luck to you!

          3. Can Can Cannot*

            If you do decide to leave, you can dial back your overtime, working a reasonable number of hours. If things don’t get done today, that’s OK. Deciding to leave might be the mental shift that you need to stop the burnout.

    3. Yellow Warbler*

      I’ve stagnated at jobs that wouldn’t pay me what I was worth or provide upward mobility. I stayed because I had a nice boss, liked my colleagues, and had decent job security. But stewing in resentment (even if mild) always eventually affects my work ethic and interpersonal skills, despite my best efforts. I’d move on before I tarnished my reputation.

      1. WellRed*

        Yes I am stagnating right now for similar reasons. One thing that would send me packing: the unreasonable hours you are working OP. Is this industry standard or are they abusing you?

      3. Stormfly*

        I’ve definitely been stewing for the last couple of days, and it’s not a good feeling. (One advantage of working from home is that you don’t have to remain stoic, you can let it all out and cry with impunity during the work day, once you’re not on a video call.)

    4. Mockingjay*

      The company likes you exactly where you are. You are the dream performer: you work complex projects, you go above and beyond to get it done, you take on problems and solve them.

      From a business perspective, the company needs you in this productive role more than they need you as a manager. Unfortunately, career paths and company needs don’t always align.

      If you decide to look outside the company, you can always reduce your availability outside business hours in order to do so. Alison has tons of posts on how to say: “sorry, I can’t come in this weekend, I have another commitment” and stick to it.

    5. Green great dragon*

      If you leave, and don’t like it, might you be able to come back? Might you be able to come back at a higher level, with that extra experience or when they don’t have the option of keeping you in the same role?

      I do not think the extra years at an individual contributor level compared to others helped me. More like baked in a delay – for the next level up they care about experience of manager-level work, not experience of below-manager work.

      1. Stormfly*

        Yes, that would make sense, based on what I’ve seen when looking at specs for jobs I’d be interested in. It’s generally only years of managerial experience that are called out.

        No, there wouldn’t be a problem with leaving and coming back, it happens pretty often. So, if I do go out into the world and dislike it, I could come back in a few years.

    6. Carol*

      It does seem like any promotion potential for you is well down the road at your current place, if it exists at all. It sounds like you should scale back your crazy hours, set some boundaries, and start applying elsewhere. Change is difficult but I have gotten my best opportunities by leaving, sad to say, even though I’ve always been a valued performer. I know a lot of others have only gotten good pay raises & promotions through leaving as well. Sometimes no matter how much you learn and take on in a particular job, people think of you as when you first started.

      I currently work in a workaholics environment that generally only recognizes those who consistently put in (or appear to put in) very long hours over YEARS (so if you do that for projects when needed, it’s noted but then forgotten in the next crisis) and even then, a lot of folks do that and stay flat and never seem to move up. The highest merit doesn’t even keep up with COL. Unless I see a clear opportunity for myself here in the next year or so, I’m probably going to try to move on. Don’t really want to, but it’s kind of the only way forward at a lot of places.

      1. Stormfly*

        My place is better in that respect at least. They do promote people frequently. So the potential is definitely there soon-ish, but if it didn’t happen next year, there’s no way I’d stick around.

    7. MacGillicuddy*

      Have you ever addressed the schedule of your projects with your manager? What was your manager’s reaction when you brought up the subject?

      If you never brought up the issue of your work load, are you in an industry in which people are expected to always work those kinds of hours?

      Unless you’re in something like Big Law, those kind of hours indicate a management problem – they don’t have enough employees for the amount of work, or they have unrealistic schedules/deadlines. Or the person doing the work doesn’t have enough support, or they’re new to the job and it takes them much longer than it should to get things done.

      What are the criteria your company is using to move a person into management? I hope it’s not “individual contributor proves themselves by doing the work of two people “. That seems like a toxic work environment.

      You wrote “ I’ve been told that I can take it easy next year, I can clock out on time every day and it won’t count against me for next year’s promotion cycle.”

      I would not believe this for ONE SINGLE MINUTE! Your company has been taking advantage of you.

      And your idea that if you change jobs you’d be “starting at the bottom”. That’s just not so. You have experience already and shouldn’t be applying to junior or entry level jobs.

      Start job hunting.

    8. TechWorker*

      Honestly you sound a bit like me 2 years ago. I was doing most of the job of a manager but told I couldn’t be promoted because I was too stressed. (The project was on fire, I was working long hours and pissed off because the stressed part was because I took over a car crash, not -just- due to lack of experience :p). I nearly quit, maybe should have done, but the promotion did come through 6 months later, and I’ve had another since then. Honestly the main reason I didn’t quit was that I was too burnt out to apply. I am now much much happier and have better work/life balance despite being more senior with more responsibility.

      So – I actually don’t think what you’ve described proves you should leave – with regards to ‘did staying as IC longer help’ – well experience actually doing the work is useful when you’re managing it, and it sounds like you’re actually also getting project lead/mgmt experience too. If your company does want to keep you then they need to try harder – I would have a talk with your manager about promotion timelines and about what went wrong in the last project (if you’re working 12-14 hour days, something *is* wrong – if that’s a normal contribution level then get out now :p). If that’s not convincing, then I agree with others you should leave.

  29. Mimmy*

    The question this morning about interview bags made me think of a question I have about bags and interview attire…. and lo and behold, it looks like I’m going to have a virtual interview next week!

    My questions…

    1. The bag question can wait for now because, obviously, I’m not going anywhere for this, but I was going to ask about good brands for petite women. I have one that my sister gave me years ago but it’s too big.

    2. What would be considered appropriate attire for a virtual interview? This is a well-established non-profit. I was planning on asking you guys about a suit for in-person interviews during the spring/summer and whether I should get a second suit for fall/winter interviews.

    I applied for two jobs this week and was not expecting any responses until at least after the holiday!! I do have a follow-up question that I’ll post separately…

    1. ecnaseener*

      …As a petite woman, it never occurred to me that I couldn’t carry a big purse. My work purse is very big, I guess it might make me look smaller but I’m already going to look small. It doesn’t have a long handle though, that’s important – no bumping against my knees.

    2. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      For #2 – wear what you would normally wear to an in-person interview. It will help you be mentally prepared to be in that kind of headspace, it will look good on camera and it will show that you put in some effort. I interviewed recently and always dressed up like I would have for an in-person interview. When I was conducting interviews over the last few months I noticed when someone did or did not put in that effort.

      1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

        Agree with RPS. I have been an interviewer for multiple positions since shutdown, and the candidates who dressed up start off on the right foot. Just a simple professional blouse and a jacket. I’ve seen hoodies on candidates on one extreme, and someone kind of dressed for a party (?!) on the other. Just… be normal.

    3. rachel in nyc*

      I have OPINIONS on bags. (And am technically petite- 5’5′) My feeling is that it’s partially about what you need the bag to do- do you just need it to hold you wallet and keys? Then you can go for a pretty small bag. My tiny friends (5’2′ and under)- like coach. I think partly because of the sizing.

      Do you need something to hold your resume, notepad, and a change of shoes (NYC- I need to change into interview shoes)? I have a decent sized classic black Kate Spade bag that was bought for me in high school probably. It fits everything I need for an interview without looking bulky. (But I don’t mind a large bag.)

      Or the most practical bag I own. My Hunter backpack. Yes, like the boots. It’s rubberized so it’s designed to keep the weather out and everything inside dry. I will admit they are expensive and mine is both from Target (staying up until 2am to get it was totally worth it) and navy blue. But it’s super practical and I’d take it to an interview no questions.

      So to me, it starts with figuring out what do you need to take with you to your interviews- and how are you getting there.

      1. Fran Fine*

        Yup, these are the questions I ask myself when choosing a bag for interviews as well. I tend to go for larger leather totes so I can carry a change of shoes, my makeup, wallet, and padfolio all in one bag. I’m 5’3” and large purses have never really bothered me (I actually hate small ones because I feel like I can’t put them on my arm without looking like T-Rex).

    4. The Rural Juror*

      I have a leather tote bag from Fossil that’s a good size. It’s just large enough to fit my laptop, but not so large that it looks like I’m carrying a beach bag. I’m all of 5’0″, so I understand the concern. I’ve picked up plenty of bags in stores and then looked in the mirror and gone, “Nope!” because they look too big for my frame.

      Someone mentioned on one of these open threads a while back that they had trouble with patterns looking weird on virtual meetings/interviews. She had a nice, dark-colored dress with a neckline she thought worked well, but the pattern was just busy enough to look “off.” So, maybe something solid-colored in a darker tone? Or a light shirt under a dark blazer?

      GOOD LUCK!!!

      1. moql*

        I second fossil. I’m not petit, but I have one that fits that sweet spot where it fits a small laptop with a shape that keeps it from looking huge. Mine has a long strap that can be detached without a problem.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      1) I have a rule about clothing and accessories. I must be comfortable with all of them. I can’t have a handbag that falls off my shoulder because of [reasons]. I can’t have clothes that don’t move with me. (Yes, some garments feel like they have their own agenda.) If you are not comfortable with what you have, that will take your attention away from your interview. Wear items that you are confident about.

      2) I am very frugal person. I’d opt for a navy or black suit and use it year round. I’d change the color/pattern of the shirt with the seasons. Under the heading of “know your area”, I’d put on a pair of Cuddle Duds or other thing under the pants for winter use. No one would care here.

    6. Mimmy*

      I was talking with my husband about this, and he thinks suits for interviews is old-fashioned. Have any of you heard that?

      1. Coenobita*

        Suits for interviews are still 100% a thing in my field (I work at a national nonprofit that has a pretty casual day-to-day dress code). Though for a virtual interview, you can definitely get away with an unmatched blazer and just pretend your bottom half matches – that’s what I did for my last interview. :)

      2. Fran Fine*

        I have. No one does it anymore for real in my area (and I’ve worked for a law firm, insurance company, transit company, and now in software), but a lot of the companies in my city have business casual dress codes. The one time I saw someone interview in an actual suit was when I worked in insurance, and you could tell this guy was fresh out of college and was told that interview suits were still required. Well, he was known as “Suit Guy” from that point on because no one, not even the company executives, wore suits to work so people found it odd that he wore one to an interview. They were like, “This is still a thing?! Why?”

  30. Methuselah*

    Are there many people here who have experience with retail or restaurant work? I’m just curious because I’ve worked in the industry my entire adult life, then I took 8 years off to take care of my son who had disabilities. Ever since I’ve been back in the business for the past 3 years the new trend seems to be every restaurant installing tons of video cameras throughout the entire store. They don’t even hide that it’s to watch all employees at all times and make sure they’re not eating a single bite of food or taking a sip of any drink for free, that they are never sitting down at all ever for any reason, never touching their phones for any reason, and to make sure that they are always, always rushing around busy. This is no matter how long the shift may be, (I’ve seen the district managers call and scream at people who sat down for 5 minutes during a 14 hour shift). It’s also no matter how slow business is or how much work is complete. They insist on us cleaning things even if it was just cleaned 2 minutes ago, and it’s just insane and disgusting in my opinion. Pretty much all the higher up people watching these videos are sitting down in an office or at home gleefully bragging about watching the employees. It’s worse since Covid. And to add to that, almost no restaurant allows employees to eat a meal for free anymore, many charge full price, some give a small discount. There are some restaurants now that even forbid employees from drinking anything but tap water. And I’ve seen a lot of restaurants refusing to allow outside food or beverages in even if the employees can’t afford the food. The industry has always had it’s problems but when I came back after my 8 year break I was shocked at how disposable we are to the big bosses now and how widespread the awful treatment has become. I’m actually glad to see all the posts on social media of restaurants shut down because nobody will work there. Has anyone else experienced this is retail or restaurant work?

    1. pancakes*

      I don’t have much restaurant experience – just a little, a long time ago – but I know lots of people who do. “Family meal” for staff is still a thing at well-regarded NYC restaurants, but I’d be surprised if it’s common in neighborhood places or chains. Chris Crowley at Grub Street has done some great reporting on restaurant workers throughout the pandemic.

      1. Methuselah*

        I’m in several very large groups for restaurant workers on Facebook and a lot of this was going on before Covid, but it seems like once Covid started the upper management at places around the country had a meeting and decided “these Aren’t essential workers, their jobs are essential to their survival! Let’s use that to our advantage!” I’ve seen dozens of posts of signs, letters and groups texts from corporate offices explaining how hours will be cut, meals are now all full price, no water bottles allowed, only store cups that are paid for with a receipt for proof are allowed now, more cameras are going in to observe safety behavior, etc. All because of “Covid precautions” supposedly.

    2. lapgiraffe*

      I’ve seen some restaurants pull back on things like free bread, free soda water, comped dishes or drinks, all of these things for customers, but I have not in any way seen them pull back on staff meal or nonalcoholic beverages for employees! I sell wine to both restaurants and retail stores and would say the retailers are worse about the big brother component, definitely a lot of owners and managers not trusting their employees, but I honestly can’t say that it’s been a big deal with the (dozens upon dozens) of restaurants I work with.

      The exception to that would be national chain accounts, they definitely keep tabs on people in infantilizing and unnecessary ways. You may live in a place where the restaurant scene is dominated by chains and there aren’t many independent options (which definitely have their issues/working for them is not a panacea), but I would say you make better money, have better customers, and have a higher likelihood of decent managers and owners when you avoid the national chains. A good restaurant manager is going to be on the floor with you for the majority of service, and there shouldn’t be enough time for them to sit in an office with nothing to do but watch their employees.

      This may also just be a regional difference, I grew up in the South and when I go back to visit my family there’s definitely a different vibe in restaurants, in my liberal northern city there’s a lot more attention focused to providing good wages, good benefits, happy work environments, and improving all the bad things about working in restaurants that is definitely not happening back in my conservative hometown.

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      Aaaaand people wonder why employees are reluctant to go back to work.

      This sounds awful.

    4. Yellow Warbler*

      My experience as a server is that chains have consistently strict treatment, while mom-and-pop places skew either truly wonderful or demonically bad, with no in-between.

      The key to surviving a chain is feeling out the FOH manager. Some know that they need to keep up appearances for corporate, but can find ways to keep things reasonable for staff as well. Depending on the size of your town, servers talk, and you can get a feel for who to seek out: “Todd is great, I followed him from OG to Chili’s.” Just be careful about referrals in this biz. Servers come and go, so check out why someone left before you use their name.

      1. Brownie*

        “mom-and-pop places skew either truly wonderful or demonically bad, with no in-between”

        Two of my best friends work in the local restaurant scene in my town and the stories they tell consistently reflect what you said. They’ve both secured spots at the best, as rated by employees, restaurant in town and they get comped meals, free drinks (even a free beer occasionally after big events), health insurance, well above standard market pay, and a very conscientious owner who has put their money where their mouth is and has excellent business sense. The restaurant thrived during the pandemic and showed a bigger profit than a standard pre-pandemic year even.

        In contrast several of the other locally owned restaurants have folded or are in danger of going under in the last year. All of them were known to be horrible to their employees, talking US Kitchen Nightmares levels of dysfunctional owner behavior. Since the local pool of restaurant experienced staff is relatively small and tends to migrate with the good managers the owners’ behaviors are an open secret. It’s utterly jaw-dropping to listen to some of the stories about how strict and downright abusive the bad owners are. It really is, at least in my area, one of those two extremes of either employee heaven or hell when it comes to the non-chain restaurants.

    5. Disco Janet*

      Yep, it’s common – has been for awhile in my experience. From the small neighborhood ice cream shop I worked at nearly 20 years ago to the department store I was in 10 years ago, cameras everywhere (clearly to watch employees) has been the norm.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Chaine, especially. They have no problem telling employees, “We know you are here to steal from us.”

        Meanwhile they shamelessly steal the employee’s energy, confidence, autonomy, ability to trust, and so on.

    6. hot priest*

      When I worked in the restaurant industry — from about 2005-2015 — it was common for there to be cameras everywhere in the restaurant but this was mostly for security purposes and to keep an eye on the front door when there was no host on so that the manager could run out and greet the guests quickly. Neither my managers nor myself when I was a supervisor used them in this weird panopticon-ish way you’re describing.

      We also used the cameras to replay embarrassing/funny things liken when I wiped out on a spill before someone had a chance to put a wet floor sign up, or when servers did funny dances behind the line or stuff like that.

      The situation you’re describing in restaurants now would make me hesitant to return, too — and I loved serving! (I do not love the recurring nightmares, however, which persist to this day.)

  31. NaoNao*

    How much of a stretch for a new job is too much?

    Current job (and most of career) has been independent contributor learning and development. I’ve been unable to break a certain earning ceiling and move into management jobs despite many attempts and approaches. I’m now working on my MBA as one part of a multi-part plan. I’m a genuine expert at my current skill set: making training and delivering it, as well as project management and vendor management for training products.

    I recently interviewed for a job at double my current salary, but it sounds like almost 3 jobs in one: sales training strategy development and roll out, sales personnel recruitment and growth, and managing the work of the training developers.

    I **can** do these but it feels like a pretty big jump to me. The interviewing team seems to be interested and I’ve passed two interviews, being very transparent and direct and not overselling my skills, background, and expertise.

    So how much stretch is too much? Any advice or shares welcome.

    1. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      For me, it depends on what kind of support and ramp up they’re going to offer you. If they want you to hit the ground running day 1, that could be too big of a stretch. If they’re willing to give you a slow-ish ramp up and have lots of training and support scaffolding built into the onboarding, it could be fine.

      1. Fran Fine*

        This is where I’m at. This may not be too big of a stretch if you have proper support and if they’re not planning to give you ALL THE THINGS right when you start.

    2. Gloucesterina*

      Do you want this type of stretch (wearing multiple hats)? Or do you prefer a more intense focus on one or two hats?

  32. Emmie*

    I was one of two finalists for a SVP level position I did not get after ten interviews. I am not upset about it… I know the right opportunity will come my way. I want to reach out to the outside recruiter who helped me, and thank the people at the company who interviewed me. This networking/ interview thank you thing doesn’t come naturally to me. I am probably overthinking this, but I’d like to email them to thank them. Can the AAM mafia help me?!

    – What do I say to the person who is the boss of the role? What about the founder? The CEO? All interviewed me. Is it okay to tell them that I’d like to be considered for another future opening?
    – I already talked to one of the outside recruiters, M. What should I say / email to the other recruiter, F? Is it okay to ask for referrals to other outside recruiters? I had a really great experience with both F & M.
    – Is it okay to send LinkedIn connection requests to them?
    I really wish the organization well. They are in such a special place in the market. The work they do makes a difference with a population that is in meaningful to me.

    1. Message in a Bottle*

      Wow, Emmie! Ten interviews! You have such a great attitude about it.

      I think a LinkedIn connection request is fine. Not sure about the rest of your questions, though.

      Also, did you send thank you e-mails all along? Just curious. I usually send after one, but I wouldn’t know what to do after ten!

      1. Emmie*

        I didn’t send them after each one. I wish I would have because it was the right thing to do in hindsight. Tbh, I stay in jobs for a long time, so I am out of practice with interview formalities.

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        While 10 is high, it’s not unheard of for a SVP/C Suite position. I just wrapped up a CFO search that had a total of 8 interviews between my vetting of the candidate and the interviews spent with the hiring committee. While lots of interviews can be a drain, if the process is communicated clearly on the front end regarding what the process will look like, it tends to go pretty smoothly.

        1. Message in a Bottle*

          When you have that many interviews to people send thank you e-mails after the first one? Throughout the process? Only at the end?

          I think thank-yous are important but not sure how to factor them into an 8-interview process.

          1. Emmie*

            I don’t know either. Some were with the outside recruiters. I didn’t send them throughout the process. Instead of waiting, I’ll send them a day or two after next time.

        2. Emmie*

          I think they could’ve done a better job of communicating the number of interviews ahead of time, but I believe they didn’t know. It sounds like they had two great finalists – me and another person – and didn’t expect to need that many interviews. I tip my Stetson to really great and ethical outside recruiters.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      Keep it simple — a “I enjoyed meeting you, thank you for your consideration” would be more than enough. If they want to keep in touch the next step is up to them.

  33. Take a pay cut to shift career?*

    If you’ve taken a pay cut to shift your career, were you happy you did it? Any regrets?

    I am considering taking a significant pay cut to shift my career because I am unhappy in my current job and there is an opportunity for me to switch gears to a different track with a different employer. There is no way to get into this different track without taking a pay cut. (Say I’m an experienced llama groomer, but I want to switch to evaluating the quality of llama grooming. You must start as a low level llama evaluator to make this switch. An experienced llama groomer earns a lot more more than a low level llama evaluator. Even an experienced llama evaluator will pretty much always earn less than an experienced llama groomer.) Benefits are pretty much identical.

    The opportunity to switch is not a permanent one, but will last at least 12-24 months with the possibility of becoming permanent. There is nothing that would prevent me from going back to my prior career track if I ultimately don’t care for the switch.

    Though the pay cut would be significant, my budget can absorb it if I reduce the amount I am putting into savings every month.

    I would love to hear others’ experiences making such a switch. Was it a good thing? Any regrets? Anything else for me to consider?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      If you’ve taken a pay cut to shift your career, were you happy you did it? Any regrets?

      No regrets. I also now make almost 3 times what I used to make (took a while, but it happened).

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Even an experienced llama evaluator will pretty much always earn less than an experienced llama groomer.

        That said, I also had no regrets at the time. As long as I can pay my bills, I’m fine. I mean, I don’t want to be underpaid. I’d always love to be paid more. But I know, for some folks, having the absolute highest salary is of primary importance, even if they’re miserable or not doing what they really want to do.

    2. Nicotene*

      I did it, but it was in order to get better work-life benefits, not just to switch from one type of office job to another type of office job. I took about a 40% paycut to go from an in-office full time job to a flex job that’s from home. No regerts, lol.

    3. Chidi has a stomach ache*

      I was in academia and took a pay cut to leave last year when higher ed got thrown into disarray from COVID. The actual cut to gross salary was small (~2%), but I lost some retirement matching benefits which eat into my take-home pay. That being said, after just a year I got an institutional raise that means I’m making more than my academic gross salary (still less in take-home for a while), and it looks like this will be a regular thing (as opposed to my university, which was openly telling us no raises, even for COL, for at least 3 years, and didn’t have a great track record before that). The work-life balance and shorter commute is much better for me. There is also a lot more growth opportunities in the new track. No regrets so far.

    4. Former Usher*

      I took a modest pay cut to change jobs once. (It was a disaster for reasons unrelated to that pay difference.) One thing I didn’t think enough about was trying to optimize the timing in terms of the end of year bonus, options vesting, and some bonus vacation time that would not be paid out. You might feel better making the switch if you are able to wring every last benefit out of your old job first. Just something to think about.

    5. Not An Architect*

      I did, and I have no regrets whatsoever. I didn’t have dependents or anything so enough to live on was enough to live on, and that was fine. I knew the deal going in; I know that I may well never make as much in this career, and certainly my current salary (4 years down the line) is still well below what I was making in my first job out of grad school on my old path. In terms of my work and life as a whole, though, I’m in a much, much better place. No regrets.

    6. Water Everywhere*

      I took a pretty big pay cut to switch jobs (same career) once because I was increasingly miserable at a disorganized constantly-in-crisis-mode workplace and had a chance to work a temp position at a well-run org. I tightened my budget, made the jump, and it worked out so well that the new workplace made room in their budget to make my job permanent and increase my salary. If your budget can afford it, the change can definitely work in your favour in the long run!

    7. Malika*

      The only regret is that i didn’t make the jump earlier! Career sustainability and ensuring you have a path leading towards development rather than burnout is, in the long-term, a financial sound choice. I have spoken to people who have ruined their health by making the ‘sensible’ choice of staying at the wrong job for too long. A detour and pay cut seems to be a far more attractive choice than that.

  34. rachel in nyc*

    I’ve been considering next steps in my career for a couple of years. After getting my J.D. and passing the bar, I fell into my current (non-law) job at a non-profit- it’s basically specialized accounts payable. Crappy pay, great benefits, really healthy office. (Literally this week, we’re all complaining about getting extra vacation days because we don’t get days paid out and we all have extra already.)

    There isn’t really any upward mobility in my office- and I could move to a similar office at another non-profit but it’s never going to be as healthy an office. (Our’s is uniquely situated for a slew of reasons.)

    But I can’t figure out how to take what I’ve done- J.D. and finance and turn it into a job that pays more (and doesn’t require 60 plus hour weeks.) I’ve considered going back and getting an MBA or MPA. I’m not opposed to it but I don’t want to get a degree just to get a degree.

    Anyone have any suggestions?

    1. BananaBum*

      Have you thought about going into a compliance role for corporate companies? I work for a large med device/pharma company, pays v. well, and they look for people with JD’s or experience in law. I know the compliance managers make in the 120-130k range and compliance directors 180-200k, plus bonus and stock.

      1. rachel in nyc*

        I hadn’t really. I have this vague concept that compliance requires specialty training- though I don’t see why I couldn’t learn it.

        1. BananaBum*

          For the people that I know in this field, none of them have specialty training (myself included). I fell into a compliance role after working as a paralegal right after college and just stuck with it.

          1. Fran Fine*

            That part. Most of the people I know who are in compliance learned on the job or did certification exams through orgs like FINRA. You definitely don’t need to get another degree.

    2. Maxie's Mommy*

      You might enjoy negotiating medical insurance contracts for hospitals, to maximize reimbursement for the hospital.

    3. Msnotmrs*

      I don’t have a lot of experience in this field, but have you thought about working for a legal nonprofit, like Legal Aid? You would probably see an increase in pay, but keep a lot of the same nonprofit feelgood aspects.

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Are you trying to avoid a job with a law firm because you’re concerned about the working hours? Not every position is for workaholics. There’s work out there for people who want to maintain a work-life balance that favors life over work. I’d consider going through my network of pals from law school to see if any of them have a position available.

      1. rachel in nyc*

        It’s a mix of that and a mix of I feel that I missed that window. I haven’t done any “real” legal work since law school- my current job prefers a law degree because I need to interpret contracts but I’m not drafting contracts or anything.

        1. Glomarization, Esq.*

          In my jurisdiction, the local bar association offers CLEs, networking events, lunch ‘n’ learns, and panels and stuff oriented to specific practice areas. If you’re not already a member, maybe join your local bar association and put yourself out there? Like, “Hi, I’m rachel in nyc, I’ve been paying my bills in a JD-advantage position and I’m looking to get an actual lawyering job.”

          Or maybe your law school’s alumni services office can offer placement assistance? Everybody’s mileage will vary with that, but with any luck yours is better than mine.

        2. Glomarization, Esq.*

          Or, if you don’t want to get a lawyering job at all, I’ve had success getting work as a contracts specialist (for a major contractor in the energy sector) in a jurisdiction where my law credentials weren’t valid. It was paper-pushing, a bit repetitive but required attention to detail because every file was a little different, for 40 hours a week. Work stayed at work, pay was decent.

    5. LadyByTheLake*

      I see below that you interpret contracts — most large corporations have contract specialists (sometimes housed in the law department, sometimes separate) — but your background would appear to fit.

      1. Coenobita*

        Yes, what about a contracts role at a consulting firm? I used to work for a medium-sized company that held a lot of federal contracts, and our contracts folks were absolutely worth their weight in gold. My impression was they had the occasional tight deadline, but since they were paid mostly on overhead there was no pressure for them to work the long hours expected of us technical staff (who had billable hours targets).

    6. TPS reporter*

      Research organizations (universities, hospitals, biotech) are starving for people like you to do research admin- proposal and contract review, maybe some financial transactions. The pay can be very good at certain more prestige places and it’s pretty much normal hours.

  35. Decidedly Me*

    I’ve been invited to a meet up with my company’s partner company. I’ve never been to one of their meet ups before and it’s different from ours – theirs list meetings on the agenda and ours are just for fun. Given the meetings, I don’t know what I should be wearing to these. I don’t know anyone at the partner company to ask or their dress code culture in general, but I can email the coordinator. Is that a weird thing to be asking about?

    1. pancakes*

      Is there anyone at your company who’s been to one of their meet-ups? If yes, I’d ask them. If no, I don’t think it would be odd to ask the coordinator how people generally dress for these.

    2. TimeTravlR*

      Is it in the office? After hours? If outside the office, and especially if after hours, I think I would go with business casual, but stay on the more formal side. For men, I would think a really nice polo-style shirt (or maybe even wear a button down and keep a tie in your car, just in case!) and nice trousers (not suit pants, but not Dockers, either).
      For women, nice slacks and a blouse would be a good happy medium.
      If you are dressed a little more formally than the rest, I don’t think that is as big of a deal as wearing jeans when everyone else is in a suit!

      1. Decidedly Me*

        Thanks! It’s off site – different city that everyone’s being flown into for a few days. It’s part team building/part meetings from the agenda I was sent.

  36. Mimmy*

    So as I mentioned above, I applied for two jobs, one of which I have probably have an interview for next week. The other job is at the state university.

    But, I have a quandary.

    Both jobs are full time. I am also pursuing an online graduate degree that I’ll finish next spring. This fall, I am taking two classes and will be taking on a couple of leadership positions on committees. I thought about withdrawing my application for both jobs because it sounds like a lot, but my husband thinks I shouldn’t rule them out just yet. I didn’t seek out these two jobs; they were forwarded to me, one of them from a vocational counselor who’s been helping me. So I felt like it was the right thing to follow up and apply.

    Sigh. I always get myself into these situations that I end up later second-guessing!

    1. ferrina*

      Do you like free time, or hate it? That’s an important thing to know. Imagine your life with all these commitments- does that sound invigorating or exhausting?
      Picture the life you want, then pick the path that brings you there.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Mimmy- TWO jobs! That is great!

      You know your limits. For me, I could work FT and maybe take one or two classes. That’s it. So you probably already have a similar thought in your head. Our personal limits are the first consideration.

      Next. I’d be sorely tempted to see if they would take me half time or three quarter time until I finished the degree. This is what I’d check out, for sure.

      Last. I’d have to ask the voc counselor their thoughts on this, too.

      1. Coenobita*

        I’d be sorely tempted to see if they would take me half time or three quarter time until I finished the degree. This is what I’d check out, for sure.

        I like this suggestion a lot! Your schedule constraint has a defined end point, after which the employer would be able to take advantage of your additional credentials/skills, so it might be worth it to them.

    3. Llama face!*

      I’ve been giving myself similar worries in my job hunt (on different points of “but it may not work”). What I keep reminding myself of is that a job application isn’t a promise. It’s the first step to see if that job works for BOTH sides and either side can discontinue at whatever point they realize it isn’t going to work for them. So you aren’t making any commitment yet. You are just investigating. Maybe reframing it like that will help?

      1. Mimmy*

        That’s essentially what my husband says. I also think I learned some of these perspectives here on AAM :)

  37. FlyingAce*

    I have been attending a workshop the last couple of weeks (2 hours a day, 2 days a week). This workshop is being facilitated on site at a different location, so most attendees are in the same room as the facilitator; there are just a few of us joining virtually from other locations (in my case, another country). It has been very hard for me to follow along; it is very hard to hear the facilitator when he starts walking back and forth to address all the attendees in the room, and the way the camera (likely from a laptop) is set up, we cannot see what he is writing in the whiteboard (he is not using PowerPoint or anything similar where screen sharing could be used). Would it be out of line to request a session exclusively for those of us joining remotely?

    1. TimeTravlR*

      It seems like the feedback that this is not working for those who are remote would be valuable. The cameras in our training rooms follow the voice, which is great. We also use smart boards so they can be seen by all participants (on their computer or in person). Whoever is running the workshop needs to get updated! But yes, I would ask for something extra for the remote users. Especially if you (or your employer) is paying, you are not getting what you paid for.

    2. ferrina*

      Let the trainer know what is not working! He may not realize that the mic isn’t picking up his voice while he’s walking around, or that you can’t see the white board.
      Start by giving him a chance to address those issues, then if that doesn’t work, you can ask for an exclusive session.

  38. Sleepless*

    I have a simple problem I want to pose to people who have to talk to the public a lot: teachers, doctors, social workers etc. I talk too fast! It’s probably due to a lot of things. I’m a bit ADD and my brain runs ahead of my mouth, and I have a bit of social anxiety so at some level I’m probably thinking “the sooner I get all these words out the sooner I can get away from this other human.” I have to explain a lot of very complex things to people, and I can hear myself burying them in words. Has anybody else dealt with this and solved it?

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I’m a teacher and a bit of a fast talker. Everything is so exciting to me! I want to share as much as possible with the students! I must say it all!

      I think the biggest thing for me is forcing myself to take pauses and slow down beyond what feels normal or natural. Sometimes I’ll even say “I’ve been talking a lot, let me give you a minute to absorb”. I have literally set timers before to actually give this set amount of time. It can also help to practice out loud, either by yourself in front of a mirror or with someone.

    2. Nicotene*

      I used to talk very quickly in my work presentations; I think part of that was being young and nervous. What made a difference to me was regularly volunteering as liturgist at church; the passages are short and serious, so you go pretty slow. Now people always complement me on my soothing calm presentation voice haha. Obviously not directly applicable to everyone but maybe there’s someway it translates to your life … open mikes? Poetry?

    3. knitcrazybooknut*

      I used to do this as well, and also make leaps in logic that weren’t necessarily apparent to everyone else.

      One thing that might help: Replace “the sooner I get all these words out, the sooner I can get away from this other human” with:

      The more clear my explanation, the sooner they’ll understand and walk away from me.

    4. Parakeet*

      This is probably an unsatisfying answer, but I think practicing the cadences helps. Also, dividing comments into a sentence or two, and practicing taking a little pause between them. When I’ve had to work with an interpreter it really enforces this in certain ways, because I HAVE to do this in order for the interpreter to be able to do their job, so keeping that in mind the rest of the time has been helpful.

    5. Gloucesterina*

      Do you have feedback from colleagues whose judgment you trust that this is actually a problem for those listening? It might not be!

      Are you in a spot where you can share visuals or text (slides, handout, agenda) along with what you are talking about? And can you build in pauses for people to ask questions about the complex things?

    6. ferrina*

      Sometimes it’s an issue prioritizing the main thing that needs to be said (I know my ADHD brain thinks EVERYTHING IS IMPORTANT!!!)

      I ask myself- “suppose this person gets a concussion walking out of this room and can only remember one sentence I said. What do I need them to know?”

      Start with that, ask if they want more detail. “Is that enough, or do you want me to dive in to more detail? I don’t want to bury you in words, but want to make sure you have all the information you need.” Everyone loves when I ask that.

      It might also help to think of it as “If I talk too fast, I have to spend MORE time talking to this person because they need me to clarify or repeat. If I do it a bit slower the first time, I actually get to spend less time talking to them.”

      Good luck!

    7. Carol*

      I have this tendency and a few things helped when I was teaching. Don’t be afraid of pausing. Check body language for nods, understanding looks, or eyes glazing over. At some points stop and say, “questions so far?” or whatever makes sense for the context. This will come up against the anxiety but it’s just a performance that, counter-intuitively, helps you genuinely connect with people.

      If there’s a spiel you have to give a lot, practice giving it slowly. You could try recording yourself and timing it, and maybe you could compare it to recordings on podcasts, lectures, etc. Having a comparison point can train your ear to listen to yourself a bit better in the moment. Giving speeches too fast is incredibly common and it’s actually pretty hard to slow down too much.

    8. RagingADHD*

      The best way to balance an ADHD trait is with another trait, because then you’re less likely to forget your goal or fail to notice that you sped up.

      So for something like this, I’d bring my curiosity in. My goal is not to say the words. It’s to get the other people to grok the concepts. So I can’t know whether it’s working unless I watch/listen to them and check in with them.

    9. IL JimP*

      I think the best advice I ever got was that if it feels like you’re talking really, really slowly you’re probably going at just the right pace.

      The best tool in all of this is video, it sucks watching yourself but it’s the best way to spot when you’re doing it and being aware is sometimes the best tool to combat it

    10. Here we go again*

      I talk fast too. I used to work phones for a call center and I learned to slow down by pausing for a little longer when I finished a sentence. So when repeating a phone number say 123 pause 555 pause 1234 pause.

  39. eez whiz*

    What’s the best way to delay giving an answer to a job offer? I’m going through the process for two internships right now. I was offered one position yesterday, but it’s not my top choice. I have a final interview for my first choice position on Tuesday. I’m planning to respond to the offer today and ask for some time to think about it, but I want to make sure I’m responding professionally. Any suggestions for me?

    1. TimeTravlR*

      Thank you for your offer. I would like to have time over the weekend to consider it. May I get back to you early next week?

      1. ferrina*

        +1. And let the other company know that you have a tight deadline and when you might hear by. If they are at the final interview stage, they may not have the answer yet, but it’s usually info a company wants to know.

  40. Keymaster of Gozer*

    UK people: I need to get a new suit and formal work attire. Problem is I’m a woman over 6 feet tall and over a size 22 (40H chest but hip size too big for Bravissimo stuff) Any recommendations for clothing firms (online or otherwise, I’m ok) that do decent stuff that’ll fit?

    1. calonkat*

      not in the UK, but I’m short and very plus sized and have been very happy with eShakti.com. You give them your height and weight (and you can enter more measurements) and you can adjust sleeve and skirt length and neckline on most outfits. The only issue I’ve ever had is that they don’t always size the sleeve opening (I know there’s a name for that) up enough for MY arms (especially post quarantine) and I’m really bad at estimating how low cut things will end up being on my chest (a problem I’ve solved with safety pins). But the waist is at the right spot, the hemline is where I request it, etc. And I’ve gotten multiple compliments on my wardrobe now that we’re back in the office (which is a first for me).

      I’ve no issues with the work or fabric quality, they seem to pay a decent wage, and they stopped working on clothes entirely during the pandemic and shifted to making masks for India (where they are located). Which I think was way more important than a skirt I wasn’t going to wear anywhere for many months :)

    2. cubone*

      Emperor’s Old Clothes is made in the UK. Most of their stuff is not what I would call work attire (loud prints, casual styles) but they have a Design Your Own option so you could pick the more work appropriate styles, like skirts and trousers, in more neutral patterns. I believe their sizing goes up to a UK 30 or so (for custom, you pick a size but also provide measurements and have lots of custom choices).

      I wish I had more options or ideas, but not in the UK unfortunately. My best advice though is if you can swing it, invest in a couple great pieces that fit you exceptionally and round out the wardrobe with the cheaper/fast fashion options if that’s more reasonable for your price point (and assuming you can find options that fit).

    3. Bagpuss*

      You could look a eShakti – (online) they do made to measure – I do’t think they do suits, but their dresses are good quality and and there are styles which are suitable as formal work wear.
      I bought a couple of dresses which I was really happy with

    4. Quandong*

      Have you looked at Universal Standard? It’s a US company but ships internationally and the size range is fantastic (of course you would need to use a size conversion chart but the clothing runs true to size in my experience).

      The work clothes are great, the quality is great, and they hire a diverse group of models including tall, fat people (looking forward to seeing more disabled models in future too).

      1. Quandong*

        Sorry – forgot to say I’m not in UK but not in US either. I had no issues with shipping delays for my orders. Universal Standard holds sales quite often (which is good for the $ aspect) though this may not coincide with your timeline for when you need the suit and clothes.

  41. not today*

    My boss just resigned rather suddenly. My experience is a really obvious fit for the job – but the hiring folks aren’t really aware or at least thinking of me for the role. It seems they want to bring over a person with strong leadership but not a lot of depth at all in the work. So I’d be some combination of watching or helping them learn stuff I know.

    Any advice on being ok with this? It all happened a few years earlier than I expected, and I’m really uncertain now when I’ll be ready for a bigger leadership role.

    1. RC Rascal*

      Has the hiring team specifically told you they do not see you as a candidate for the role? If not, I would raise my hand and ask to be considered.

      Schedule a meeting with them and say, “Now that Fergus has left the company, I would like the opportunity to interview for his role. Here’s why.” Then discuss what you are bringing to the position and why you would be a good choice.

      1. not today*

        Thank you! I will talk with the hiring team soon, and hopefully that will be a constructive conversation to make my case and maybe get feedback on why I wasn’t initially considered. I love my current job and team, but this was a blow.

        1. ferrina*

          Yes! But I would be careful on how you frame it to them- “I’d love to be considered for this position! Who should I be sending my resume to?”

          Sometimes leadership doesn’t realize what everyone does and doesn’t realize they should consider someone. It’s frustrating, but rather than focusing on the slight, focus on what you want to get out of this. You want to show that you are easy to work with, focused on the job, and don’t take things personally. Even if you ultimately aren’t selected for the job, it’s a chance to get more visibility with senior folks, and you want them to be left with a positive impression.

          I’ve been the heir apparent who was passed over (thanks nepotism), but I made such a good impression in my interview that I was granted special access to senior leadership and certain projects. I became the immediate Number 2 when my boss wasn’t around, and was able to leverage that in to some really cool experiences (which in turn got me a better job a couple years later).

      2. Troutwaxer*

        Exactly. If nothing else it let’s your management know you’re interested in moving up, and gives them a chance to see where you are now.

  42. help please*

    Hello:
    My question is: Should I send the following letter to my former boss or do I “drop the rope”?
    For context: I left my job earlier this month after about a year (so, totally during the pandemic). It was a role in the small branch operation of a much larger nonprofit. I left for many reasons but mainly because two of my same-level colleagues made my job impossible. (They had gossiped about me, gone through my employee mailbox looking for dirt to dig up on me, etc. These were the two people who should have been helping me transition into the organization.)
    I submitted my resignation with the notation that “I’ll leave my end date up to you.” (I rather expected the standard two weeks and also there were two major events coming up in those two weeks. I would have stayed to see them through and had no intention of raising a scene or causing sabotage etc. and I believe everyone knew that.) I did not hear from my boss directly but another staff member said that the overall nonprofit’s rules were that if there is a resignation, it takes place immediately. So the next day, I picked up my belongings and that was that.
    While I respected my boss and still do, I have not heard from him at all. I got the job on the recommendation of a mutual acquaintance and I hate the thought of either of them thinking less of me. I am not the type to walk off a job without cause or notice, both for my boss’ sake and for mine (I don’t plan to continue in the same field).
    So here is the gist of what I’m thinking of sending (with the specifics changed):
    Dear Former Boss:
    I hope this finds you well and happy. Now that a little time has passed, I wanted to thank you again for the opportunity of having been (Position) at (Organization). I did indeed enjoy working for you and sincerely admire your leadership.
    I apologize for my abrupt departure. Had I known of (Parent Organization’s Regional Headquarters) regulations concerning resignations, I never would have left so suddenly, especially not during this key season. I would have continued with (Event) preparations without issue and even would have continued until a replacement could have been found. However, I do understand the rationale and accept it.
    Again, I humbly and sincerely apologize for my failings, mistakes, and shortcomings, and make no excuses for them. I regret any adverse effects on my colleagues and its clientele. I did the best I could but recognize I could have done things better or at least differently. Please know that any failures on my part were indeed mistakes, done in ignorance not out of malice.
    However, if I may be so bold, I do feel the need to point out a cultural issue that made my time at (Organization) very challenging. While our staff is very talented, very busy, very burdened with work as well as personal/family issues, and is doing the best it can with diminished resources in an extremely challenging time, there seems to be an “us vs. them” mentality among some that made it difficult for me to get help and/or advice.
    Two cases in point:
    • I was roundly chastised via email for making 25 extra copies of an Event Program) (Not in the letter but the email was really over the top.)
    • The morning of my resignation (my one day off that week), I received a text asking to call the office. I did so and was immediately berated (concerning a certain issue). I was never asked my rationale for how I was handling that situation. (Indeed when I started to merely say “OK” to indicate I was listening, I was rather rudely cut off.) The call ended when the staff member had to attend to someone else. (Not in the letter, but this after several months of other issues concerning the same two people. I realized the well was truly poisoned and there was little chance of salvaging this working relationship.)
    These are just two instances that made it difficult for me to do my job. Rather than cooperation and teamwork, there seemed to be an atmosphere of distrust and silo-ing. Such an atmosphere made it difficult to run such a large program. The phone call simply made that difficulty abundantly clear.
    I sincerely respect you, Former Boss, and my fellow former colleagues. I’d rather step aside to allow a more qualified person take the reins than allow my failings continue to affect the program. I wish you and the staff the very best.
    Sincerely,

    So, should I send it? (So that my side of the story is on file somewhere and also to alert my former boss about a serious flaw in the organization) Or let it go?
    Thanks

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Oh, no no no no, don’t send this.

      Having “your side of the story on file” does nothing. There is no such thing as “on file”. And what you’ve written comes off as terribly stilted and sour grapes.

      Let it go.

    2. Nicotene*

      Mmm I wouldn’t, honestly. It’s so long its going to come across like a List of Grievances – and once you’ve quit, they don’t care any more. It’s good to write things out and then not send them sometimes. If you really want to reach out, maybe just the first paragraph and then see if there’s an encouraging response?

    3. MissBliss*

      I would not send that email. You talk both about your failings and about what other people did to make it hard for you. Which is it? Because it’s not clear if it’s one, the other, or both. It seems like you’re saying “I made mistakes but it’s really not my fault.”

      If you feel strongly you need to send something, I would send a much shorter version:
      Dear Former Boss:
      I hope this finds you well and happy. Now that a little time has passed, I wanted to thank you again for the opportunity of having been (Position) at (Organization). I did indeed enjoy working for you and sincerely admire your leadership.
      I apologize for my abrupt departure. Had I been aware of (Parent Organization’s Regional Headquarters) policy of resignations going into effect immediately, I never would have left so suddenly, especially not during this key season. I would have continued with (Event) preparations without issue and even would have continued until a replacement could have been found. However, I do understand the rationale and accept it.
      I sincerely apologize for this oversight, and make no excuse. I regret any adverse effects on my colleagues and (Org’s) clientele. I recognize that I could have done things differently. Please know that any failures on my part were indeed mistakes, done in ignorance not out of malice.

      1. Sparkles McFadden*

        Do not send this. I am not sure what you are hoping to accomplish but I cannot see anything positive coming out of sending this. Let your pots here serve as venting and let it go.

    4. SomebodyElse*

      Don’t send this letter.

      Honestly the whole situation surrounding the resignation sounds odd… did you not speak to your boss when you resigned? Was there a reason you didn’t contact them directly?

      There really isn’t anything for you to gain from sending this.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Agreed.

        And it’s one thing if an organization has their own “thing” around resignations (you get walked out that day or whatever) but otherwise, I don’t understand why you wouldn’t just give your own end date. It’s one thing to work /with/ your boss if there’s a critical deadline or event coming, but if you’re simply resigning the norm is very much to say “my last date will be [2 weeks]” and that’s that.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Don’t send it. You can WRITE it, and file it away for yourself, but do not send it. Your time to discuss your issues was when you resigned (and even then I wouldn’t go into this length), and the fact that you left so abruptly without waiting to discuss with your boss… he may not have a lot of patience for you right now.

      1. Coenobita*

        Yes, I think the fact that you wrote this letter is great, but I can’t see any good coming from sending it.

        Actually, I think that you sharing it here (instead of sending it to your boss) might actually be the optimal scenario: you got to write out your perspective, and you got to put it out in the world, to an extent. Those are probably the actions that will give you the most value, with no risk of negative consequences.

    6. Keymaster of Gozer*

      Write it, by all means, but file it at home somewhere. It’s so very tempting to try and get your side out, but consider how you’d feel if you got a similar letter from the boss of a job you’d left: would you think ‘oh they’re trying to set the record straight’ or ‘I left, it’s not my business anymore’?

      Keep it somewhere away from your email system and look at it again in 6 months or so. I’ve done this (a real diatribe I wrote about one mess of a former employer is still on my hard drive and I’ve alluded to it a few times on this site) and just knowing you wrote it can be cathartic enough.

    7. Gingerbread*

      No, at this point there’s no need to. It won’t change anything. I think it’s good you wrote it out, and cathartic. If you send a note, send a short note (a few sentences) saying what you liked about your boss and with the hope of keeping them as a contact but not a reference.

    8. JelloStapler*

      What are you hoping to gain? If it’s anything but letting them know you did not intend to leave quickly, I like Miss Bliss’ example. if you are hoping for some kind of retribution for the “bullies”, I would not count on it.

      1. Joan Rivers*

        AGREE! It sounds too apologetic. If you said there were co-worker issues but Boss was always fair and you appreciate that and doubt he approved of their behavior, then you end on a good note about him. But only if you could frame the issues to your advantage, or allude to issues w/o defining them. Being mysterious might be fun. But this is tricky.
        Do you want a good reference from Boss? Or what is your goal?

    9. Sara C*

      Nope. Bad idea. You’ll just look extremely odd, and unprofessional, if you send this. No one is going to file this away so your side is “on file” – it doesn’t work like that! It sounds like you handled this whole thing very oddly indeed, and you really don’t want to add to that impression by sending this weird letter.

    10. Anonosaurus*

      I understand why you had to write this, but please do not send it. If they were the kind of company who cared about hearing this, they would be the kind of company that fixed the problems while you were there.

      In your shoes I would also want to explain to Former Boss why you left abruptly, but I would keep it at that. Maybe just say something like this – “Dear Former Boss, I hope this finds you well. Now that the dust has settled, I thought I should get in touch to explain why my departure was so abrupt. When I gave notice, I hadn’t realised until So-and-so pointed it out that Company’s policy is to require resigning employees to leave immediately. I had assumed I’d have two weeks to wrap up and hand over, but this wasn’t possible. I thought it would be helpful to clarify this and also to apologise for any inconvenience to you and the rest of the team resulting from this. Many thanks for your support and leadership during my time with Company, and I wish Company all the best for the future. Best wishes, Me.”

    11. Yorick*

      I wouldn’t send it. First, as everyone else says, it won’t come across the way you want. Second, even if it would, you’re not giving any info about these incidents. I can’t tell from reading this if those people were wrong or if you just made serious mistakes.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      I am not sure why you would expect to hear from the boss. Because you have a mutual friend? I don’t think that is a strong enough reason for the boss to contact you.

      No, do not contact the boss. The environment sounds toxic and there is a fine line between having a coworker problem and having a boss problem. This sounds like the boss could be a contributing factor to all the problems. Less is more. The less you say to any of them the better off you will be here. Let it all go.

    13. Girasol*

      I don’t know why it always feels so important to tell an ex-boss “This is what I mean. This is what’s wrong!” when you can punctuate it with “…and that’s why I’m leaving!” so they understand at last how serious the problem is. But if you can step back from the situation you’ll see it’s not going to work. If they didn’t listen to you when they had to count on you to get stuff done, they surely won’t care when you’re just somebody who used to work there. They need to know what the problems are, and they will, when they learn it the hard way. Meanwhile, there’s no point in offering free advice that won’t be taken the way you wish it would be. Just move on and leave them behind.

    14. RagingADHD*

      This letter is an outline for a conversation, or series of conversations, that you could have (maybe should have) had with your boss while you worked there, to try to improve the situation *before* it got so bad that you were ready to quit.

      It will do nothing now except make you look odd and unprofessional.

      I agree with others upthread that the whole situation sounds strange. Who was this other staff member who told you to leave immediately, and why were you talking to them about it?

      Even then, the right time to (briefly) say that you didn’t intend to leave them shorthanded for the events, and were expecting to work out a notice period, was to leave that note/email with your boss at the time you left.

      If you had a good relationship with your boss otherwise, I maybe could see sending a short note to that effect now. But obviously there was never good, clear communication at that org. So in the circumstances, I wouldn’t say anything

  43. RC Rascal*

    Linkedin Advice Requested. (Also any advice for returning to the workforce after an absence.)

    I am hoping the commentariat can provide me insight in managing my LI account. Here is the situation: I was laid off in the Summer of 2019 and officially separated from my employer 90 days after that (during that period they were still paying for some stuff and also had the ability to recall me if needed due to business change.) Reason for the lay off was the business unit was sold. I was a Director level employee and considered the Key Employee for the unit, but was not included in the sale. At the time of separation I received a generous severance and outplacement with a nationally known firm. At that time the outplacement firm’s advice was to keep my profile as saying I was still employed at the company, and not put at ended date of employment. Just to be clear, my profile says my dates of employment at BigCO are Job Title from 20xx-Present, as opposed to 20xx-2019. Outplacement firm said this was considered acceptable practice and that it would help me attract attention from recruiters.

    My job search was going well initially after the layoff (still in 2019), and at Christmas that year my mother was diagnosed with cancer. I am an only child and my father died a number of years ago. I stopped my search to deal with the medical situation and help get her estate in order. She deteriorated rapidly and died during the quarantine, leaving me with a house stuffed with 50 years worth of possessions. It has now been a year since she died and I am almost done settling the estate. It’s been a full time job–it took me 7 months alone to clean out and sell the house, working at it like a full time job. Since then it’s been a never ended stream of financial paperwork, legal paperwork, tax paperwork, and sales of personal property. For the last 15 months I have had a full time job, just not the kind of thing you put on a resume.

    So here is my situation: What should my LinkedIn say now? After 2 years it seems disingenuous to still list BigCO as a current employer. (FYI–I worked there 6 years, 5 as a director, so it was a long term position). If I put an end date on that employment on my profile, does it mean I will not be contacted by recruiters? I did incorporate a business for Estate Services at the advice of my accountant (primarily to be able to write off my insurance costs) but I don’t want to put that as my current occupation on either a resume or LinkedIn. I have a 20 year corporate career and do not want to make a career transition into trustee/estate servicing!

    Advice, insight, input is appreciated. I estimate restarting my job search later this summer. I do periodically have recruiters contact me and I did have one this spring snip at me because the profile said I was still employed at BigCo. Since my mom got sick I have had 4,000 things to deal with and updating my LinkedIn hasn’t been one of them.

    1. WellRed*

      If you’re not working at BigCo anymore you can’t list it as current. I disagree also with your lawyer’s advice but that’s neither here nor there. Does LI have some way to indicate you took time off for family matters? That’s also how you’d approach it during a job search.

    2. Sparkles McFadden*

      I am not going to be much help but I wanted to let you know you are not alone in this.

      This is similar to my situation. After being laid off from my workplace of 30 years, I took care of both parents in succession during a five-year period. I had some freelance side jobs I could do while taking care of my mom (and I even worked a temporary full time gig for a bit before I needed to be with her full time), but these are not things that will help my job history. I know at least three people in the exact same situation.

      I intended to get back out there and then covid hit. I, too, had some asset distribution to handle during 2020, so I proceeded with that (which was hindered by shut downs)…and here we are. I’ve been thinking of staying semi-retired for a while longer (I have a small side-business that I have always had but it doesn’t net much as I do it mainly for enjoyment) so I haven’t done much beyond getting in touch with my old network. The health insurance issue is what keeps pushing me back to the idea of full time employment again.

      As more time passes since I’ve left my Big Co., I do wonder if I should address things a little more openly. I have considered putting “After addressing some serious family matters, I am looking forward a return to full time work.” Putting personal information up on social media so publicly feels weird, so I haven’t done that. If I were to mention my family situation, I think it would be in a cover letter or during an interview when asked about the gap. I think now, in the time of covid, employment gaps will be more common too.

    3. ronda*

      I saw one person put in a linked in “job” for taking care of ailing relative and settling estate. Didn’t go into any accomplishments, just noting that time period as taking time off from career for this purpose, now resolved and ready to get back into whatever business position he was looking for.

      He already had a new job by the time I saw it so not sure about how he did the current job thing when looking

  44. Academic Riser*

    I’m in academia. My unit is led by a director, with a dean as his boss. The director may be stepping down, and I’m interested in the role. I’m meeting with the dean next week to talk about the role and my interest. What questions should I expect from him, and what should I ask about? Thanks!

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Is this an official interview or a more casual chat about the position?
      Even though the dean is your current grandboss, they may not know as much about the specifics of your current work achievements. I’d be prepared to talk about some of your more impressive projects or contributions and how they have prepared you for the director role.

      For your questions, I’d ask what they want out of the new director position or if anything will change for the role. I’d also ask about the workload.

    2. A Genuine Scientician*

      Prepare as if it is a formal interview, but follow the dean’s lead entirely on how the conversation goes; don’t try to pitch yourself or describe your intended approach to something if it sounds more like he’s saying “one of the major challenges for this role is X” unless he adds on something like “how have you approached similar issues in your role?”. Way better to prepare as if it’s a formal interview and find out it’s just an informative conversation than vice versa.

      Expect that he won’t know a lot of details about your position or accomplishments. Be ready to talk briefly about them if it comes up. Pause after a fairly short bit, and offer to elaborate if more information is needed.

      Remember that you have seen (some of) what your boss did, but not necessarily what your grandboss was looking for in this position. So, treat your questions as a chance to find out important information *from his perspective*. What are some of the major challenges in this role? What does he expect to change about it over the next 5-10 years? What metrics is he looking at that are critical to job performance? What sort of coaching is available for someone transitioning into this role? Over the course of a typical semester, what percentage of time in this role is spent on X, Y, Z? What sorts of decisions does he think someone in this role should be making, and what should the person be bringing to him (potentially with suggestions or options)? What impact has the pandemic had on this institution/unit/role?

      Even if your grandboss isn’t treating this as an interview, it’s entirely reasonable that he will also want your perspective on how things went with your previous boss. I think it’s a good idea to be able to say something like “From my perspective, Ex Boss was great at A and B, which I’d like to see continued. Ideally, I’d like someone in this role to do a little more C and a little less D, because Reasons. I’d also love it if we could start doing E, though that might take some time away from F. Is that a possible direction this might go in?” You’re not throwing your boss under the bus, you’re providing a different perspective, and you’re acknowledging that there are tradeoffs and other people who are decision makers.

  45. When work and healthcare collide*

    I’ve got a health condition that is pretty well under control with a combination of medication and lifestyle adjustments. One of those lifestyle adjustments is a very strict sleep schedule/routine.
    Once a year I have to do an inspection on all the equipment I have. Typically my boss comes in to help me out with this (normally he is at another site). This year he came in on Friday and we got started about Friday at 4:30 and worked until 9:30 which messed up my sleep schedule that night.
    When discussing what time to start on Saturday morning boss was horrified when I suggested 9:00, he said 9:30 and showed up at 9:40 to heat up his breakfast.
    I’m under the impression that he either has very different sleep needs or very different sleep hours since it’s common to get emails from him up to midnight but almost never before 11am.
    It took me until Thursday to recover from the one night of disrupted sleep. Obviously when it takes days to return to normal after a night of disrupted sleep having a major disruption in my sleep schedule is less than ideal but definitely not sustainable for any period of time.
    The actual question:
    We have a major project coming up that will have me working closely with my boss for 2-3 months. I’m really afraid that he’s going to want to work late nights and come in late in the morning which just isn’t sustainable for me (I’ve tried altering my sleep schedule to the work late, come in late and it just doesn’t work for me. It appears that I don’t just have to be strict about how much I sleep but when).
    He’s a fairly approachable and understanding guy about certain things but has little tolerance for some other things, and I don’t know him well enough to have an idea of where this issue would fall.
    How do I approach this pro-actively or should I wait to see what sort of schedule he sets then push back? All the projects I’ve worked this closely with him before have been limited to 3-4 days and the longer ones were emergencies so I was willing and able to operate on adrenaline and caffeine for the duration but with the longer project I know I can’t do that.

    1. Massive Dynamic*

      So sorry you’re up against this; I think the best way to ensure that you get what you need is to get a medical accommodation set in stone via your doctor with your work. Otherwise your boss will probably think it’s an early bird vs. night owl thing and since he’s the boss, night owl time wins. I’ve worked with bosses like this on projects before and they usually want their subordinates to adapt to their late hours. Protect yourself proactively by making it known that you have hard stops at X time and get it on record that it’s a medical issue.

      1. Reba*

        Yes, you can definitely approach it collaboratively but be ready to use the word “accommodation” (assuming your workplace is subject to the ADA) and be clear that it’s a medical need, not a preference.

        You could bring it up in a conversation about planning for the project. “Can we talk about work hours and expectations for Project X? Based on Equipment Day and some of your emails, I have gathered that you are something of a night owl! But for me, one of the ways that I manage my health is that I need a steady sleep schedule. For this 2-3 month span, it’s not going to be sustainable for me to work late because of my medical condition.”

        Ask if there is an HR process for this and indicate you are ready to do it. You don’t have to offer lots of medical information up front, but they have the right to ask for documentation, doctor’s note and so on.

        Maybe it would work to have you start in the morning then overlap with him in the middle of the day. That could be an accommodation idea that you suggest. See what he says!

        Hoping for a good outcome for you. Sleep is no joke!

    2. Ranon*

      Is it necessary to work synchronously every hour of the day for this project? Ideally you could both work your preferred schedules, doing your individual tasks at the edges of the day and working together in the middle.

    3. Xavier Desmond*

      Personally, I would bring this proactively. If you are comfortable doing it,I would schedule a call with him and say you can’t work passed a certain time due to medical reasons and ask him to accommodate that.

    5. LadyByTheLake*

      I don’t think you need to make a big thing out of this (at least not at first). Just say something like “When we did the equipment inspection, that was a late night for me. For health reasons, I need to go to bed early, so I need my workday to end by X. Will that be an issue? Only if he says “no” should you then say, “I might need an ADA accommodation. How do we go about that process?” That should get him to see reason.

  46. TechWorker*

    (Not immediately, but once people are vaccinated/case rates are down), my company is thinking of implementing a policy where three days are ‘core days’ with everyone in the office, and the other two you can work from home or come in as you like. Before the pandemic we had flexibility to wfh on rare occasions (Eg feeling under the weather, large delivery, plumber coming round) but were expected to be in 5 days otherwise – and the plan is to retain that for the ‘core days’.

    This has (to me) a surprising level of pushback – people seemed to have been hoping for more flexibility and don’t understand why ‘core company days’ can’t be ‘core team days’. I think the answer is that core team days end up being a nightmare if people plan their lives around them and then move teams (and the nature of our projects means that team moves are pretty common), but this didn’t seem to satisfy everyone!

    What does the AAM commentariat think? Does that policy sound more rigid than your company is likely to go with? Also read an interesting article on this exact topic (which ended up recommending 2 whole company days and 1 team day I think..) which I’ll put as a reply to this.

      1. SomebodyElse*

        Thanks, that was an interesting read. Not surprising but interesting.

        I’ll admit to being confused to the difference between core team days vs. core company days. Isn’t the core company days the same as everyone having the same core team days? Or is it the flexibility for each team to decide on what their team days are? Honestly that sounds like a nightmare to establish and manage.

        1. TechWorker*

          Yeah, so I think people are generally in agreement that we need some days everyone is in (say, whole company meetings). Some people are pushing for say 1 ‘company core day’ where everyone is in, plus 1 or 2 ‘team days’ where your team agrees to be in. Pros: more distributed use of office space and meeting rooms, cons: someone has to decide what the days are (I totally agree that’s a nightmare to manage, the folks proposing it aren’t in mgmt and maybe haven’t considered that side much), hassle around team moves.

    2. SomebodyElse*

      How does core team days work when you need to work with other teams who’s core days are different?

      I actually kind of like the idea of 3 company core days and the 2 flex days. It makes scheduling in person meetings, travel, and other activities a whole lot easier, and everyone will be flex/remote mode on the 2 days.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      My workplace is going more with a core-team-days thing than a core-company-days thing, and I’m a fan. I wouldn’t be thrilled with having to go in 3 days a week. 2 days makes more sense to me, for those critical meetings and some in-person happenstance meetings.

      But a lot of it really depends on your company culture. Sounds as if the rank-and-file at your company want core team days, and the management wants core company days.

      1. TechWorker*

        Actually I think a majority of people are happy to be in 3 or more days (not everyone, some would prefer less) – they’re just not on board with having those days completely predetermined.

    4. Enough*

      I think the core days for the company as a whole makes sense. What do you do if you have 2 teams that have only 1 common day that have to work together (MTW vs WHF)? What if you add a 3rd team that has a core schedule that only allows all 3 teams to meet together once a week (WTW vs WHF vs MWF)?
      My question – What are the core days that have been proposed? Cynic that I am I suspect that those who want to pick there own core days want Monday and Friday free.

      1. TechWorker*

        :) good to see both sides! Days not yet agreed, though we’ve established one of the other of Monday and Friday will be a wfh day.

    5. Colette*

      I’d find that the worst of all possible worlds. I’d be working from home regularly enough that I’d have to maintain a space to work (i.e. desk, office chair, etc.). I’d be going to work often enough that my transportation costs would be the same as going in full time. (I bus to work; it’s not worth getting a bus pass for 3 days/week, but it’s close enough to the cost of a pass that I wouldn’t save much.)

      1. TechWorker*

        Yeah, someone who wants full time remote would not be suited. But that was also true pre-pandemic.

        I think you’re right that it’s not a great balance travel costs wise, though I’m not sure there’s loads we can do about that (and where the office is means lots of people do live close and/or drive).

      2. Brent*

        The 2 days are optional WFH. Hypothetically you would be free to work 4 or 5 days a week in the office if it makes more financial and logistical sense.

    6. TimeTravlR*

      I think the team being together is the bigger requirement. If you choose to change teams, you will know that your days in the office change and you weigh that into the decision.
      I don’t see the point of core company days as it just brings all the cooties together at once. Also you can do more with less space if the use of the space is spread out.

      1. TechWorker*

        Team moves are sometimes driven by individuals wanting a change but they’re more often driven by project demands – Eg the project you’ve been working on is going into maintenance mode and now only needs a team of 3 rather than 6, but something else is ramping up. Management want/need the freedom to move people around as needed.

    7. Alex*

      I think that at the bottom of this is how *necessary* it is to have a certain number of company days in the office. If people really feel like having these days wouldn’t accomplish much, then yeah, they are going to push back against something that feels pointless, regardless of whether or not it is reasonable to ask.

    8. Yorick*

      If there are company core days instead of team core days, you can collaborate in-person with coworkers who aren’t on your team. In some places, it’d be a nightmare if one team was there Tuesday but another team not until Wednesday.

  47. JustBarelyManaging*

    I started a new promotional job that is a new title that does not have any precedent or training. My father died recently (a few weeks ago) and I am having a terrible time staying on task, supervising my staff, etc. I’m having a hard time with concentration, time management and feeling confident. Does anyone have any experience with this? I feel like I’m barely hanging on here.

    1. Fiona*

      A few WEEKS ago?? Of course you’re having a hard time with concentration – that’s so normal and I hope your colleagues are aware of the situation and can extend some grace. Please don’t be so hard on yourself. It will take some time to get back to your baseline. Allow yourself a couple months at least to feel off-kilter. I’m so sorry for your loss.

      1. JustBarelyManaging*

        Thank you. I think they’ve been supportive for the most part, but we haven’t had a service for him yet. I feel like I’m in limbo. It’s my first time managing and I want to do well, you know? Anyway, thank you. I will try to work on being kinder to myself.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      Not personally (I lost a parent, but before I was at a working age). However, I recently had someone on my team that came up on the 1 year anniversary of his mother passing and expressed many of those same feelings. He asked for a few days off to process and grieve, which helped immensely. I’d talk to your manager and see what you can work out. I’m sure they’ll understand.

      I’m also really sorry for your loss!

      1. JustBarelyManaging*

        Thank you. I think I’m going to take extra time around the funeral for myself.

    3. JelloStapler*

      Oh hun. I have had a very similar situation year ago and had the same struggles. Do you feel comfortable sharing with your boss? I was lucky to have a lot of support during the time, and it helps me feel less stressed about the impact of grieving.

      1. JustBarelyManaging*

        I think they have been pretty supportive and my position isn’t client facing, but it’s just a whole new world. I’m glad this is a long weekend and I can relax and regroup.

    4. WellRed*

      You’re grieving! Be honest. Be kind to yourself! My brother died in September. It’s a process. I was better for awhile and then then barely functioning at work around February and March.

  48. Me--Blargh!*

    That staffing agency job with the religious non-profit picked an internal candidate (not surprising). I didn’t even get an interview. Thanks anyway, everyone, for all the advice last week.

    It’s my birthday today. I can has amazing full-time job in one of the two markets I want to live in, please? :/

    2. Medical Librarian*

      Happy birthday! Yes, hope you find a great job in one of the two preferred markets soon.

  49. voyager1*

    Has anyone ever called a previous employer to see what information they give out about prior employment with them?

    1. Grim*

      I had my wife call a previous employer and they would only give her my title, start and end dates. Wouldn’t confirm if I was eligible for rehire.

    2. Beatrice*

      I got a reference call once that I’m pretty sure was my former employee’s wife. She pretended to be from a staffing agency, I was candid in my feedback, it was not entirely positive, and she briefly started to argue with me about one of the less positive parts, haha.

    3. Just Another Manic Millie*

      My friend Fergus had his sister call his previous employer. The HR rep, who started at the company after Fergus left, said, “Oh, yeah, him. I think he was fired.” Fergus, of course, got angry and called the HR rep back, but she denied everything.

  50. Parakeet*

    I’m a relatively recent reader of the blog (I have been going through the archives) and a new commenter. Hello!

    My current job is at a nonprofit where I was previously a longtime volunteer. This is a field where volunteers do pretty sensitive work and are expected to meet high quality standards, and where new volunteers get the same initial training (which leads to a state certification) as the new staff. My list of positions at this organization (using the “llama care” metaphor) would look something like:

    Llama Grooming Volunteer, 2014-2020
    Interim Llama Care Specialist, 2020-2021
    Llama Care Specialist, 2021

    I previously worked in a very different field and some of my stays in jobs in that field were < 1 year (though I then went to grad school). I have no immediate plans to leave my current organization, but if the right opportunity happened to come along, I'd want to apply. Reading this blog has made me wonder – would my volunteer work "count" when future hiring managers are assessing how long my stay at this organization was? Would it depend on whether it was the same field? On whether I was able to contextualize the level of training and work that vols provide, in a resume or cover letter?

    1. kicking-k*

      I’ve used volunteering work but listed it as a separate job. I’m guessing the person reading my CV can easily see that the organisation knew me as a volunteer, then they hired me, and assess what that means. That said, I work in a field (archives) where some volunteering is both expected, pre-qualification, and quite competitive to get.

      I’d make sure to list the training and add context if you can (the sensitive work, the expected level of professionalism).

    2. Liesl is my dachshund*

      I was fortunate to land (3) jobs via volunteering with the organization. When I used to list those jobs with the volunteering (they’re outdated now so I don’t like the volunteer part anymore) I would indicate that I joined the organization as a volunteer and was hired after X months/years.

      I would put the most current at the top of the list showing/visualizing upward progression. Is it necessary to indicate a difference between ‘Interim’ and the next position? Did you have to interview for the final position when you were an ‘interim’?

      If you believe that the next job had the same standards of training, sensitivity, and responsibility that would lend well to explaining your route from volunteer to employee, then explain that. If you think that the length of time – 6 years – in the position that eventually led to the paid job is important to the position you’re applying to, then list it. If it’s not, then place it in your Volunteer Section and highlight your paid duties instead.

      1. Parakeet*

        I don’t know if it’s necessary to indicate a difference between the interim and permanent positions – I assumed it would be because my title changed (to drop the “interim”) and because I had to sign a new offer letter, but my instincts could be wrong there. I didn’t have to re-interview for the permanent position.

        Mostly I’m wondering, given the many posts on this blog about needing a track record of reasonably lengthy stays to avoid looking like a job-hopper, whether future hiring managers would see the long volunteer stint as part of my time at the organization, or whether they would only count my time as staff, or something in between those two options. For what it’s worth, this is a fairly high-turnover and high-burnout field (though I like both my job and my organization). But I also have a second, part-time job in a very niche field, and if a suitable full-time opening in that field hit my radar I’d seriously consider it (which is part of why I’m thinking about future hiring managers despite no immediate plans to leave).

  51. Mr. Cajun2core*

    No more office sharing for us, at least for now. It will probably return in a year or so.

  52. maybeahammocktester*

    I could use recommendations on what types of jobs to look into for a semi-career shift. I am mid-30s and have been working in management level nonprofit admin and finance for about the lat 12 years (everything operations, HR, big and small events, fundraising, accounting). My dream is to do something that’s about half looking at a screen, half moving my body/talking to people/not looking at a screen. $50k minimum. I’d like to do something that more specialized so I’m not managing the chaos of 100 different types of things every day. I like events but don’t love the stress and hours of intensive production week(s). Maybe volunteer management. Not teaching but I like the idea of running a camp or retreat center, doing the admin but also programmatic content.

    Maybe you have some creative inspiration on job types or methods for figuring out what to do? Thanks!

    1. JP in the heartland*

      Full time fundraising at a relatively large nonprofit might fill those needs.

  53. Solitary squirrel*

    Any advice on negotiating workplace socialising post Covid?

    I’ve been practically the only one in my building for ages. It has been lonely. I’ve thought I was desperate for human contact, and I would still like more of a sense of work going on around me.

    But I seem to have become unaccustomed to talking with people! A new hire has started, they’re here all the time, and we keep meeting in the break room which I have been used to having to myself. And while I’m fine with a little small talk, I’m finding it hard to have a conversation for the whole break, which seems to be what they want.

    Am I unfriendly if I just want to sit and read my book when I’m having lunch? I am sure they are perfectly nice, so I feel bad about cutting my lunch short just to get some peace (and consequently haven’t done it). And sticking headphones in seems TOO unfriendly in that I’m fine with a short chat, just not the whole break.

    1. Web Crawler*

      Would direct communication work here? Like “I enjoy talking to you, but I don’t have the social stamina right now to keep talking all lunch. Sometimes I need to read my book and recharge. I just wanted to let you know- it’s not a you thing.” And then be the one to initiate conversation next lunch so they know you’re still friendly.

      Later if you need to bow out in the middle of the conversation- “Sorry, I ran out of social energy, but we should keep talking about this later”.

      1. Solitary squirrel*

        Maybe. It seems a bit blunt but I am an autistic woman, so constantly worry that I am being overly blunt or hurting someone’s feelings without knowing it!

        I’ve a feeling that six months down the line it will no longer be a problem, because a) I’ll know them better and feel more confident chatting and b) I won’t be their only option for a bit of lunchtime conversation any more! But I do feel a bit bad backing out when I’m the only conversational option.

        1. Web Crawler*

          Tbh, I’m also autistic and was socialized as a woman. I’ve learned that I either appear unfriendly in a quiet way, or friendly but overly blunt. In most cases, I’d rather at least seem friendly.

          1. Solitary squirrel*

            Ha! Coincidence.
            (I don’t want to make it sound like it’s a big deal that I’m a woman, but I feel like there is a slightly higher societal expectation of sociability/welcoming from female staff.)
            On the whole I am quite friendly and can talk to anyone, but that’s one reason why this is a bit weird I guess – I don’t really have a good script for “I like you but I want some peace”!

    2. ThatGirl*

      I’m a fairly social neurotypical person and I don’t want to spend my whole lunch break talking to a coworker! It’s totally fine! Just say something like “well, I’m going to get back to my lunch/book/music, nice talking to you!” and smile and then be done talking without guilt.

    3. Anonosaurus*

      I am hearing versions of this kind of tale from a lot of people who are returning to partial office life. I was in my office myself this week, and found it surprisingly difficult to interact in a natural way with the other person who was in, so I empathise. I think that you could safely attribute this to re-entry if you chose – saying something like “It’s been good to talk with you but I’m finding it a bit hard to people again after so much isolation! I’m going to put my earbuds in now for a bit, but look forward to chatting with you again later/tomorrow”. If this is said with a smile and warm tone, I don’t think the coworker will take offense.

    4. meyer lemon*

      I think it might help to have a pleasant script for getting back to whatever you were doing before. Chat for a few minutes, then say something like, “I’ve been looking forward to getting back to my book all morning, but I hope the tardigrade wrangling goes well for you.” Basically reassurance that you’re not snubbing them, you just have another activity planned. If they’re reasonably good at picking up cues, they’ll probably get into the habit of only chatting briefly and then finding something else to do.

  54. Childcare Woes*

    Does anyone have suggestions on how to approach a request for flexibility because of childcare limitations? My family is at the point where myself and my husband both need to leave our jobs about one hour early 2-3 times a week because of limited daycare hours or one of us has to quit in order to stay home. Our daycare intends to return to pre-pandemic hours at some point, but has not given a definite date. We both have the sorts of jobs that can be done from home and could either work from home 1 hour in the evening to make up the time or WFH on the days when we have to do pick up in order to fit in a full work day during normal business hours. However, managers don’t seem to be aware that childcare has not returned to normal yet, and I’m worried that by bringing this up, I will be seen as less reliable or dedicated.

    1. kicking-k*

      Oh, sympathy. I would just lay it out as you have now – but I live in a country where employers are obliged to at least consider flexible working for parents, and you probably don’t. It doesn’t sound a very big ask to me, I have to say. I come in half an hour late (and leave late too) so I can drop my kids off in the morning, and nobody has a problem with it so long as I’m contactable during our core hours.

    2. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I hate the advice I’m about to give you.

      It sounds like you are a woman? If your husband can be the one to swing it to ask for any kind of flexibility or partial WFH, I’d rather he do it than you. I fear that it would be far more likely for you to be seen as less reliable.

      1. Childcare Woes*

        I am a woman! I also underearn my husband and have been at this job for less time than he’s been at his because I was laid off last year. Ideally we’d both ask for flexibility, because 2-3 days/week flexibility at each job seems easier to swing than all 5 days/week from one job, but it’s definitely a balancing act in terms of who is less likely to be penalized (him, probably) + who’s job we can more easily “afford” to lose (me, definitely). So it could be that just he asks, or just I ask, or we both ask. Definitely looking forward to a return to normal for childcare hours!

        1. A Non E. Mouse*

          It would be better for you to both flex but in different directions.

          So, one of you go in earlier and leave earlier as a set schedule, and one starts later and leaves later as a set schedule.

          One of you is a 7am to 4pm as a set schedule (working from home or not), and the other is 8 to 5 or even 8:30 to 5:30.

          Then, one of you always handles drop off, and one always handles pick ups, and neither of you are “leaving early” any day – you are simply working your schedule.

          This kind of setup was a sanity saver when my kids were little.

          1. A Genuine Scientician*

            I think this might also just be an easier sell for the company. You’ll have set, regular times that your colleagues wouldn’t be expected to keep track of “Lucinda leaves early on Tuesday, Wednesdays, and Fridays, but gets in earlier those days”, and instead just have “Lucinda works 7-4, not 8-5”, or “9-6” or whatever.

    3. Lizy*

      Would you be willing to take a shorter lunch, or work through lunch?

      For me, I simply said “I usually don’t take a long lunch, and I’m still checking emails or whatever. Can I adjust my hours to leave early instead?” Boss said ok. Granted, I had worked there for a couple of years before I asked, so I did have a good track record going for me.

      Assuming your job has been pretty flexible with WFH before COVID, I’d say just lay it out – “Unfortunately child care hours are still limited. Spouse and I will need to take turns to pick up kids. We know it’ll end at some point – we just don’t know when. What reassurance or flexibility do you need from me to help make this happen?” If it’s just 2-3 hours a week (you 2 days on the first week, then 3 days next week, etc), and again – assuming your boss is reasonable – I’d say it’s pretty likely your boss will just say “make sure stuff’s done” and go for it.

      Good luck!

      Also, I refuse to believe any parent (or person, really) is less reliable or dedicated because they have kids or aging parents or a disabled spouse or anything, and I refuse to allow myself to be a part of that narrative. Anyone who’s lived more than 2 hours knows Things Happen and you can still be a productive employee. So there. ;)

      1. kicking-k*

        Yes this. I have the kids AND an unwell spouse, and I jump through all the hoops to prevent it being an issue at work… mostly successfully.

        I’m the only one at work so we can’t really afford for it to rebound on me.

  55. Jaina*

    I’m looking for some advice. I’m a young professional in a niche field and have two job offers, both twelve month contracts since I’m going back to school next spring. The problem is that I have no idea which one to pick! The first one is a rather dull job at a remote worksite but the pay and benefits are exceptional. The second job is with a private research institute in a major city with decent pay. I really clicked with their group and feel very excited about their research but it would be a bit tighter financially. This is where I keep getting stuck– I keep thinking about how much savings I’ll have from the first job and the things I’ll be able to do, like have a nicer apartment in a year or travel. I’m single and have no kids, so I’m fine with moving to either the remote town or the big city. Any advice or stories about weighing job offers are appreciated!

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      Since both jobs are 12 month contracts, which one would set you up better for the next job?

    3. MMMMMmmmmMMM*

      Honestly, go for the money. Plus, with the major city, you’ll end up spending even more money!

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      Since you are early in your career, I’d take the one that is more interesting and that will set you up better for the future. Those research institute contacts are likely to come in very handy down the road and pay off for you in the long run.

    5. mreasy*

      Disagree with those saying dull remote job. You’re young, take the fun job in the major city. You’ll have more opportunities to meet people and network in your industry and outside of it in the big city, and without family obligations it sounds like you can scrimp for awhile for the opportunity. It’s only for a year either way but in the city you’ll be better positioned to meet people who can help you into your next opportunity.

  56. AnotherLibrarian*

    Does anyone have advice for learning to rank yourself higher on self evaluations? I can’t seem to ever give myself the highest ranking. My boss has commented on it twice now. I just don’t think I’m that wonderful at what I do, but other people seem to disagree. Part of the issue is that I don’t feel like I work that hard, but I do get good results and I feel like I would get better results if I worked harder. I know this is like 90% in my head, but I am struggling with it.

    1. Sans $$*

      Also a librarian with a lonnnnnng required annual self-eval. This is what my therapist told me once: Are other people ranking you as “exceeds expectations?” yes? Then what do you care, you’re not getting paid extra to self deprecate yourself. Why contradict them? What’s gained? None of this is to be sassy, it’s genuine questions to ask yourself.

      It’s also useful that most self-evaluations also include a goals for the next year section. Okay, so you think you could to the TPS reports better in 2022. So put ‘increase TPS output’ in the goals for next year section. You can do that, and still say you exceeded 2021 expectations for them. Both of those things can hold true- you can acknowledge you’re currently doing great and still want to improve even more.

    2. ferrina*

      I pretend like I’m someone else. I’m always much harder on myself than anyone else is- I focus on everything I DIDN’T do instead of all the amazing things I DID do. I’ve got such a long list of “ugh, I wish I did this too!” that I forget that my list of “I rocked at this!” is twice as long as anyone else in my position.

      I have to totally detach from myself to give myself a fair evaluation. I pretend I’m ferrina’s imaginary manager ranking her or talking about her to a colleague. I reset my expectations not for me, but what I’d expect someone else to do if I were managing them. That definitely helps me.

  57. Manders*

    This is a weirdly specific question, and I’ve got some time before my office opens again, but I’m kind of stumped. People who’ve worn a binder (as in the article of clothing, not the office supply) at work, how did you manage it? I’ve been warned that it’s absolutely not safe to wear a binder for more than 8 hours a day, but the problem is, my work days are never only 8 hours long. Sure, I’m paid for 8 hours of work–but when you add an hour+ of commuting and an hour of lunch break, I’m out of the house in work attire for a minimum of 10 hours a day.

    I’ve tried compressive bras and sports bras, but they don’t do a ton for me compared to a binder because of the way I’m shaped. There are some tape-based options that don’t restrict the chest, but they seem more expensive/something I’d rather use on special occasions. Is there anything I can wear safely for the actual length of my day, or am I out of luck?

    1. Littorally*

      8 hours a day is a guideline, not a hard and firm line you must never ever cross. I’ve routinely worn mine for 9-10 hour days with no ill effects, and other people can’t even get to 8 hours before they have problems.

      First and foremost, listen to your body. Take regular break days. I bind as little as possible on the weekends in order to give my body time to recover, and I never bind while I’m at home.

      Also, the style and shape of the binder can make a big difference. For long days at the office, I use a tank-style Underworks binder; having the pressure be distributed over my entire torso lessens how intense it is on my ribcage specifically. My shorter binder, which I use for exercising, leaves my chest specifically feeling a lot more compressed.

      1. Littorally*

        Another thought: if a regular binder is too uncomfortable for you for a full workday, try going up a size. You may get somewhat less compression out of it, but it should be more survivable for a full day.

        1. Manders*

          Thank you! I’ve been resistant to ordering a larger binder because I’m already not super happy with the compression I get at the correct size, but you’re right, this is what I should probably do. I’ve tried breaking mine in at home and I think I’d have a hard time working for 8 hours a day (especially in an office chair with poor posture) wearing this gc2b binder in my size.

          1. Littorally*

            Hah, that’s the song of the binder all right. I think everyone who has ever worn one has at some point been like “man this is not flat enough.” It is mostly a trick! Your chest really shouldn’t be entirely flat, unless your build is otherwise pretty skinny and undifferentiated. But hearing that is very different from feeling it when you look in the mirror.

            If your gc2b is uncomfortable for all-day wear, try an Underworks. I went in the other direction — I’ve always been an Underworks devotee, but I recently tried out gc2b and found it is much better for me specifically when I’m going to be exercising or otherwise moving around a lot. The way they’re structured is very different, so what doesn’t work for you with one might be better with the other.

            I will say with Underworks, they need a LOT of breaking in – they’re very stiff when you first get them, but the entire binder is elastic and pretty homogenous, so once they break in they can be pretty comfortable and a lot more smooth under clothes than gc2b.

    2. VeryAnon4This*

      I’ll preface this by saying I’m not trans, so this may not be relevant to your situation or your body – have you tried the Frog Bra? If you’re large busted, it won’t give you the completely flat appearance that a binder would, but it will squish you pretty flat, is VERY compressive, and can be worn all day.

      1. Manders*

        Alas, it’s been discontinued, and the available items in that store don’t go as high as my cup size. I’ve been looking for compression bras, but my results so far haven’t been great. I’m having an especially hard time finding bras made for sports in colors that work under office-appropriate shirts–a lot of them are VERY bright pink or blue!

        1. Cendol*

          I’m sure you’ve already looked at these, but just in case, and for other readers, I like the feel and style of some Athleta triple-straps. They’re not completely flattening, but they do minimize my chest/bouncing to the point where I can forget about it, which is a great thing. And they come in black, navy, and beige, iirc, though to be fair it’s been a few years since I bought mine.

        2. lemon meringue*

          If you haven’t checked them out yet, Outplay has a good line of compression sports bras, shirts and swimsuits. In my experience, they’re all pretty comfortable for working out (or swimming) and most are just black or white. How they’ll fit will depend on the person, of course.

    3. Cendol*

      I like Littorally’s advice. The tank-style has the added advantage of being an extra full layer on winter days!

      I’ve tried binding at work, also for days that were 10-11 hours when you factored in lunch + commute: it was bearable, but I basically only did it on days that I wanted to wear button-down shirts. I didn’t notice any negative side effects afterward, but it was a glorious relief to wrestle out of the binder when I got home. I’d see how you’re feeling after a week or so and reassess.

      1. Littorally*

        Yeah, definitely ease into it. When I first started binding, I wore it only for errands and such, so I’d be in it for maybe an hour or two max. Then I wore it for half-days at work, when I was planning to come in late or leave early. Then I graduated myself to full days every other day, broken with wearing doubled sports bras and a lycra compression shirt the other days. Then to full binding. Ease into it and stay very attentive to your body!

        1. jolene*

          If you were attentive to your body, you wouldn’t be binding. It’s terrible for you.

    4. Coenobita*

      I have nothing to add here, but imagining someone wearing a binder (the office supply, not the article of clothing) made me literally LOL. I suppose one could put it over their chest, sort of…

  58. uh...uh...uh... I need to quit*

    In February my manager left and get replaced with this annoying older gentleman. He is terrible at his job. If we get more than 6 orders at a time he panics. Loud noises scare him. He doesn’t know how to prep the pizzas properly even though he says he worked for this company for 5 years. He overly sauces the pizzas and puts a small sprinkling of cheese and toppings on them. He doesn’t know how to express himself. He gives vague commands and instructions. He says things like “Uh…uh.. uh… go box the pizzas.” He mumbles and is hard to hear. He doesn’t listen to the workers. One time a large order came in and I told him because nobody else did. He ignored me then freaked out when it came. When he first came I think he thought he was helping and rearranged everything in the place and confused us including the pizza toppings. They are still in a different order in our fridge everyday. He also likes to do unimportant jobs like clean mop poles when orders come. I didn’t like her much but at least she knew how to manage a place. He reorders very little quantities of food. After he came a mass exodus has happened. We have lost from 9-12 since he came. Either people quitting or getting jobs somewhere else. They are leaving on all levels mangers and crew members. I know this is food service and we lose a few people every few months or so. He blamed everybody who did not go in on that day the 2nd in command manage decided to quit on him. At least once a week I get a call from work to come in on a day I’m not scheduled because somebody called out or something. When work calls nobody likes to pick up their phone including me. We did not have a 2nd in command manager for at least 2 months.

    The franchisee is cheap and only lets the manager and 2nd in command manager work more than a 5 hour shift. I think the only reason she keeps him is because he can fix things in our location with chewing gum and paper clips. She is always complaining that she is losing people, but doesn’t seem to care.

    On top of that we are at war with the other businesses at the strip mall about the dumpster we all share.

    I tried to quit once, but a manager caught me trying to do it. My family tells me to keep this job because I have a job, but I can’t stand the guy and hate walking in there to work.

    1. Temperance*

      You don’t need to call someone who sucks a “gentleman”.

      Look for a new job. This sounds shitty, and restaurants are hiring right now.

    2. katz*

      You don’t need your manager’s permission to quit. Food service jobs are *crying* for workers in my area. Take a look and see what else is available to you, and move on.

      1. FD*

        It’s food service. If you give two weeks’ notice, you’re already the height of professionalism. I promise you can find a better restaurant gig.

    3. PollyQ*

      Restaurants are complaining that they can’t get anyone to work for them, so you should have no trouble finding another job. If you’re parents are saying not to quit before you’ve found another job, that’s fine advice, but if they’re essentially saying you should never quit a job, just because it’s a job, that’s nonsense.

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      There are so many companies looking for food service employees — get a new job today!

    5. pancakes*

      It sounds like he retired from a corporate position at the same company and went back to work because he needs money. That doesn’t really matter, though – as others have said, you should look for another job, and you don’t need permission from this one to quit.

    7. Maggie*

      You can quit anytime you want whether someone is look or know about it or not. Every food service place I know of is desperate for employees and absolutely dying under the weight of reservations and no staff. The last place I was in asked me if I knew anyone who could bartend FOR A NIGHT. that’s how desperate they are. So get out now! Wait tables and make way more money!!!

      1. jolene*

        What everyone else is saying. My London club is actually closing for a few weeks because they can’t get enough staff. DC is the same – restaurants are struggling for good service staff. Find somewhere that’s well-run and behaves well about tips and don’t look back.

  59. SnapCrackleStop*

    A friend of mine is trying to pick between different options from a retraining program he has access to from his state (US). Do any of you have resources/good things to read for someone trying to decide between IT, Database Support/Admin, and Software Engineering?

    He’s particularly looking to get a sense of how valuable specific certificate programs vs Associates degree vs Bachelors degree, but general info for folks considering these fields would be greatly appreciated.

    1. A Non E. Mouse*

      In my neck of the (IT) words the best things to focus on right now would be Data Analytics or Cyber Security..

      Data Analytics has a deeper and wider pool of available job titles.

      Note that’s not necessarily a DBA – from what I can suss out employers are looking for someone who can use data tools to tease out data, where “data tools” are whatever the employer has already.

      That said, has he looked at jobs in his area, to see what the requirements are for the ones he’d be interested in now, as well as those he thinks he’d like to be doing in 5 years? Looking at those requirements should let him know if a bachelor’s degree is worth bothering with, if certifications are more prevalent, etc.

    2. trellis*

      If it’s the same kind of retraining program I went through a few years ago (part of a post-layoff severance package; my former company paid the tuition), then I’d encourage your friend to be aware he should be ready to go above and beyond what the course asks of him, no matter which one he picks. That might look like picking up extra skills or doing more personal projects for his portfolio, anything that will show that a) he’s committed, b) he’s working to get some ‘real-world’ experience with the tools (not just coursework), and c) he’s a cut above all the other bootcamp grads out there. There are so many of those programs churning out graduates that hiring managers (I help out with my department’s hiring now) tend to be skeptical unless there’s evidence of other results like a personal website or projects on Github to check out.

      Otherwise in general I’d echo the other reply about data analytics being a growing field. Data engineering is also really taking off, particularly as companies realize that they need to make sure their data is worth using before they pursue fancy AI solutions. Database work is a good way to enter the data world and perhaps eventually transition into data engineering a little down the line.

    3. Brownie*

      Be cautious about the Database support/administrator stuff. I’m a DBA and have been involved with several hiring committees over the last few years. Every candidate from universities or retraining programs hasn’t made it past the initial interview because their programs were trying to cover so much that they couldn’t really cover anything deeper than a surface skim so the candidates didn’t have enough exposure to meet the entry-level vendor-specific jobs they were applying for. “Database” can cover so many database types, vendors, relation vs not, big data, and so on that training needs to be incredibly specific to be useful for getting jobs. Vendor/software specific certifications are the way to go for database work, especially those offered by the vendor themselves. Take a look in the area he’d want to work and see how many/which software vendors are listed in the job ads for DBA and focus on getting certified in one of those if he goes the DBA route. That’ll be the best shot at getting a DBA job. Also check the salary levels, some database vendor jobs get paid far more than others because they’re considered to require a higher skill level/more specific skill set.

      Apart from that there are specific lifestyle differences between IT (sys or network admin), DBA, and software engineering. The first two will always have some kind of on-call work and restrictions as well as weekend or after-hours work when something needs patching or maintenance, but in general it’s 8-5 work and there’s no working massive amounts every day. Software engineering doesn’t have on-call or mandatory weekend work, but may have long work hours on a regular basis when pushing for deadlines. In my life it means when I’m on-call I’m tethered to within 30 minutes of a computer/the office for the entire weekend/holiday with no drinking or medications which would be prohibited during normal working time while the software engineers get to go play or celebrate with their families. But on a normal day I get to clock off at 5pm while the software folks will be up until 2am again trying to get their build done to meet deadline. Look into those lifestyle differences, they make a huge difference down the road when it comes to job satisfaction.

    4. Eden*

      As a software engineer who is involved in hiring software engineers, there is a lack of good software engineers, but also there are a lot of bad software engineers out there. Not saying to stay away from SE, but I’d really advise to not just go solely based on what seems to have prospects and $$$, but also what they are actually good at.

  60. burnt out*

    I began job hunting several months ago and reached out to some former coworkers to ask if they were willing to act as references. Jane, who I worked with closely at my current job for over 2 years, cheerfully agreed. We had a positive and friendly relationship while working together.

    Jane shared on LinkedIn an open position at her organization, and I would imagine she will have influence over hiring for this role. The position is a *little* bit of a stretch for me, but I certainly have the skills to do it (basically, it would involve dedicating 100% of my time to a skill set that currently occupies 50% of my time, the title would be a title that I’ve never held before). I certainly don’t feel entitled to the job due to my connection with Jane, but the job market in this sector is highly competitive and I’m incredibly burnt out from months of applications. Knowing how competitive the sector is, she’s probably going to get lots of applications from people who have more direct experience. Is there a respectful way to ask Jane if I should even bother applying, given what she knows about my work… or should I just bit the bullet and get it done?

    1. Liesl is my dachshund*

      Just apply and let her know you applied. Let her know you’re excited about an opportunity to use your skills as well as stretch yourself into new areas of your industry/sector. I don’t think it would be fair to ask her to be a reference and then not let her know you applied (because you’d do that anyway for another job so she could prepare for the expected reference call). She’d wonder why you didn’t let her know, too.

      If you ask her if you should do it she might not think you have the confidence to make your decisions. If you don’t feel the position is clear enough for you to make an informed decision you could ask about a specific aspect of the role, but not the whole role in itself.

      Good luck!

    2. Writerly*

      I would err on the side of asking her first whether she thinks you’d be a good fit, given what she knows of your work, if only because it would put her in an awkward position if she DIDN’T think you were a good fit. She would have to either oversell you and be on the hook for it if you couldn’t perform as expected, or she might feel like she was risking her friendly relationship with you by turning you down. Plus, she knows her organization best. Maybe it’s either a better or worse fit than you expect and she could tell you that beforehand.

      1. burnt out*

        Yeah, this was kind of where my mind was at- if she doesn’t think I’m a competitive applicant, I wouldn’t be offended and would in fact be grateful that she saved me the time I would spend on my application. I’m just not sure how to write an email that basically says: “hey, I’d like this job. If you are willing to go to bat for me, please do it & I’ll submit an application. If you’re NOT willing to go to bat for me, I won’t hold it against you, just let me know.” I genuinely wouldn’t be offended, but I can’t find the wording to communicate that, and it feels like it would be putting her in an awkward position either way….ergh!

  61. Nonprofit Hourly Employee*

    Nonprofit sector: is it normal to ask for a raise in your first year? I was hired for one thing but feel like I’m also doing other things that are out of my hired role…however, its a nonprofit and during the interview, I was given the impression that being multi-talented/double-dipping into various things is expected.

    But…my position could be considered entry level and the pay, I’m learning more and more, is already on the lower side of the average. Now this, I realize, is my fault since I’m sure now I low balled myself. So, I’m not sure what to do.

    1. Liesl is my dachshund*

      No not really is it normal to ask for a raise in your first year with the job but that doesn’t mean you can’t ask. The question is are you adding value to the work in your original role (reducing costs, efficiency, faster turnover of XYZ?) Being paid more simply because you’re supporting other entities isn’t part of the negotiation – negotiation happens when you’re doing exceptional at your primary job.

      We all take on more duties, well maybe not the Directors but everyone below dabbles in lots of areas. However if double-dipping impedes your ability to your main job then you should talk to someone about it, but with verifiable documentation that other duties are hurting your main job. And then ask how you can turn down other duties when you know they’ll interfere with your primary job.

      Yes, in a non-profit you’re hired for one thing and then you take on other tasks ‘other duties as assigned’. I’ve been in non-profit for 20 years and I’ve always had to support work in another area of the organization.

      How do you know you’re on the lower side of average – average for this non-profit, for this non-profit role in general, or the market if the role were in for-profit? In most non-profits, negotiation can occur but frequently at the Manager or Director level. The budgets are pretty tight and they usually have a $1-5/hour ($2k-$5k) negotiation span.

      1. Nonprofit Hourly Employee*

        I’ve been averaging based on nonprofits roles with similar titles and seeing other postings of similar positions in similar sectors.

        This is my first out of college “real” job so I’m at a loss of how to gauge the ‘value’ I’m adding, and I’m not sure if double-dipping is impeding on my ability to do my main job. I’ve always been quite good at balancing workload and not overwhelming myself. I was hired during what may have been a ‘busy’ period for the nonprofit but I never felt swamped and even my direct manager praised me quite well on my performance and was surprised by it…and that surprised me because I felt like it was normal.

    2. Nicotene*

      Keep in mind, a nonprofit that pays low for what they ask is aware that they probably can’t keep you on for long. That’s how this type of org operates, they hire youngish people and try to train them up into multitaskers; a few folks will also stay on out of loyalty or because they don’t actually need the money, but most will trade higher pay for a chance to gain experience they can then leverage in another job. So you have to weigh how long you’re willing to stay at the job with low pay versus the minor blip of asking for a raise early. And if they can’t give you a raise at least they won’t be stunned when you eventually move on.

      1. Nonprofit Hourly Employee*

        That’s an interesting way to see it. My direct manager made a comment when I first started of how they understand if this place is just a stepping stone towards my career path and overall I really do love my workplace. My current pay isn’t that big of an issue, for now, because I’m rooming with siblings who all pitch in but…it could be better.

    3. Spearmint*

      I haven’t worked in nonprofits but I think it’s fine to ask for a raise after a year, especially if you’re entry level. Just by being twinned and gaining experience, you’re likely to contribute far more in the next year than in the previous year.

  62. ForgetfulLucy*

    Need some advice about finding a new job while pregnant. I’m 8 weeks pregnant and I’ve been at my current job for five years. When I knew we were going to go down the family road, I started looking for higher-paying positions as my paycheck now is not enough for daycare, also I’m at the point now that I really dislike my my job. Unfortunately, the job search has not been going great. And, in my research, I’ve been hearing some horror stories of pregnant women losing their jobs because they don’t qualify for FMLA or the maternity leave that their job offers them because of their short time in the new position. I’m nervous that this will happen to me. I guess my question is: do I suck it for the next year or so and tighten the purse strings until after maternity leave and start again? Or, am I just reading the few and far between stories, and employers have finally started to smarten up and realize that pregnant women can be just as much as an asset to them as their non-pregnant counterparts and will allow maternity leave for new employees?

    1. Childcare Woes*

      I did not qualify for FMLA with my pre-pandemic employer (this was a few years ago) and was able to keep my job, but they also didn’t let me participate in their new paid parental leave program because it was only for FMLA-eligible employees and I wasn’t eligible for the short-term disability insurance because I hadn’t been there a year. So I would weigh whether you think you can afford any unpaid leave if you currently have access to paid leave/short-term disability or even a bunch of banked sick leave. Anecdotally, I’ve seen friends who are lawyers and marketing directors negotiate early eligibility for paid parental leave, but I’m an administrative assistant and I’ve never known a peer to get that benefit (or ask for it).

    2. TimeTravlR*

      The policy on FMLA is that you have to be with the qualified employer for a year so you definitely won’t get that. As to any other company leave policy, it just depends on what policies are in place at the time you need to go out. I hate to think you have to stick it out with current employer but at least being on maternity leave might give you a little time to really start looking for new jobs!

    3. Lizy*

      While you may not qualify for FMLA, you DO (will) qualify for leave under the ADA. Essentially, you cannot be fired or forced to quit due to leave or accommodations that your doctor requires you to take as it relates to the pregnancy. So, for example, if your doctor requires you to take 6 weeks before they’ll sign off on your return to work, 6 weeks it is. If your doctor says 12 weeks, it’s 12 weeks.

      I’ve switched jobs twice when pregnant. Ask about health insurance and benefits – those are not outside of the norm regardless of who’s interviewing, so shouldn’t flag anything. CurrentJob was very open about it being a “family” type of environment – like, they support families and maternity leaves and stuff. The other time I switched jobs, it was returning to a prior position so I fortunately already knew a lot of how they handled leave and families.

      Honestly, and I know it’s easier said than done, but if a job throws red flags about the leave and family questions you ask, you probably don’t want to work there anyhow.

      Know your rights. Stand firm. And CONGRATS!

      https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/fact-sheet-small-businesses-pregnancy-discrimination

    4. Double A*

      I hate, hate, hate giving you this advice, but I personally would not risk losing FMLA protections while pregnant. Even if you get a new job quickly, you’ll only be there about 5-6 months before going on leave. And I have to say, having a new job while pregnant and having an infant is pretty stressful.

      I learned my job would be ending when my daughter was about 4 months old; I work in education so fortunately had a lot of lead time, but job hunting while having an infant was really draining and I didn’t interview well. Even though I ended up getting a job that fit really well with having a baby, starting a new job at that point in my life wasn’t fun.

      Now, this might be a bit different than your experience because I had been planning to stay in my job through my family building years, and I loved my job, and I wasn’t at all happy with how my union and administration handled the layoff (how fun to lose 3 months of pay and not qualify for unemployment because of the union contract when you already had a reduced income for the year due to maternity leave!)

      This all being said, it’s a tough time to opt into more change and stress in your life. I think it’s a great time to update your resume and prepare for job hunting; it’s not unusual for people to not come back from maternity leave. But I’d really think about if it’s the best time to job hunt.

      1. Carol*

        I second pretty much everything you’ve said. At 8 weeks, you don’t know yet how the later stages of pregnancy will treat you and whether it will be a good time to be learning a new job. And, yeah, performing at a new job when adjusting to an infant and parenthood would have been very difficult.

    5. Lizy*

      I think my comment didn’t post…

      long story short, you’re still eligible for ADA protections. Google ADA for pregnancy and look at the EEOC’s website (I had posted the link, but maybe that’s why it didn’t post?) Anyhow – I’ve switched jobs twice while pregnant. Ask about health insurance and leave – those types of questions shouldn’t throw any flags, and honestly if they did, you probably don’t want to work for that company anyhow.

      congrats!

    6. Another JD*

      If you do find a new job, then you can negotiate leave when you get an offer. You’re typically excluded from short-term disability because that’s contractual, but definitely ask about the leave policy when FMLA doesn’t apply. Get whatever they say in writing.

  63. SlimeKnight*

    About four years ago I got a big promotion and now I feel like it’s a dead end. I work for a small public sector agency and I wear a lot of hat. Think project management, accounting, IT, human resources, and data analysis. What I didn’t know at the time is that to move up in this sector, you really need to focus on ONE thing. The only way I can move up is to move into my same role in a bigger agency. I have a hit a plateau in my current role and don’t feel like I have room to grow. I’m actively looking for new jobs, and while I have a lot of experience in a lot of areas, I feel unqualified to do anything on an equivalent level because I’ve been a jack-of-all trades, master of none for so long. It doesn’t help that my degree is in unrelated field (I stumbled into this job). Does anyone have any advice?

    1. Shersher*

      I moved laterally into a more specific role. Like you, I am more a jack of all trades. But I focused on what I could bring to the table with my breadth of knowledge. I got the role and ran a large program for a huge entity. Having all that experience can be better than just having one focus.

    2. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      It depends on what you want to do. If you like being a generalist and want to stay one, yes, go to a bigger agency. If you want to specialize, figure out which sub-field and then really lean into that one – extra self-directed training, special projects in it, profiessional association, etc.
      As a data point, my public agency is desperate to find a manager level jack of all trades for a position that could be called Operations Manager, Business Manager, Administrative Services Manager, etc. It covers those fields you list in your job. Our position has a funny name that needs a close read to decode, so keep an eye out for undercover job titles.

  64. Fail*

    I’ve never negotiated salary before and am not doing well.

    The company wouldn’t tell me the actual pay range before I started interviewing, and just said it was around $40k. They just offered $42,500. I asked if they could come up a little, or if that was a firm offer (I heard it’s always okay to try to negotiate for a little but wasn’t sure what number to give since I don’t know the top range and figured they might just say we can go up $1k or probably say that’s the best they could do). They wanted to know what I was thinking because they try to make a strong offer the first time. Should I just ask for $1k more? $2k more? I’m in a toxic workplace and things are crazy busy, so I don’t have the spoons to figure this out in between dealing with work problems.

    1. Decidedly Me*

      Do you have a number that you feel is right/correct for the job? Set aside all the noise for minute (wanting to get out, how much more is ok to ask for, etc)

    2. Nicotene*

      FWIW, if you know it’s around 40, I’d ask for 45 and let them negotiate. We’d probably end up half way but at least you tried. They won’t be mad if you ask for 45, while asking for 50 when you know the range is 40s might come across wrong.

    3. Message in a Bottle*

      I was going to say ask for $45,000. And be willing to take $44,000. That’s $1500 more than what they’ve offered. And you might not get a raise once you work there. If they can’t be flexible about $1500 that tells you a lot.

      If that $42,500 is hard and firm accept that, but then,try to get a few more vacation days. Trust me you’ll need them when recovering form ToxicJob.

  65. RR*

    I’ve had a truly terrible week.
    My offer was pulled. I don’t know exactly why, but it is clear I screwed up something.
    My current job is being even worse than usual. I don’t think I can survive there much longer. And I think part of the reason that I was trying to stay just a bit longer there isn’t even going to happen for me. I really, really, want out. I just worry about the cost of the insurance, and I know it is easier to find a job when you already have one, but I’m just so exhausted. There is absolutely no flexiblity or appreciation on their part – it is all supposed to come from my side. And the hostility from eveybody is apparent.

    1. SomebodyElse*

      Oh no, sorry to hear about the offer. Did they not indicate why they made that decision? It’s worth finding out so that you can hopefully mitigate the risk for future offers.

      1. RR*

        I asked. They didn’t respond. I am so, so disappointed. And I can’t take any time to get over it either. But it’s just even harder now to focus on looking and saying that I can do these jobs so that it sounds like I can in my cover letters. Because I’m not sure at all anymore.

        1. Workerbee*

          Sounds like it’s something that came up on their side, especially as they didn’t respond. Internal idiocies. There is no reason for you not to feel confident with other jobs. I am sorry you are having to deal with disappointment, exhaustion, and toxicity during all this.

        2. Nicotene*

          Any possibility it was a bad reference from your current job? Not that this is necessarily helpful – it won’t make you feel better – but you need to know that before it keeps happening. I know someone who kept weirdly losing out right at the end of the job process and it turned out her current boss was sabotaging her. She hadn’t even listed that boss as a reference, but she was well known in the field and employers were still reaching out to her.

          Either way I’m sorry this happened to you :(

          1. RR*

            Thanks. If they contacted my current job they did so without my knowledge or ok. I’m positive that my current boss would sabatoge me – now more than ever – so I guess it isn’t impossible if they did contact the company. But they shouldn’t have without talking to me 1st, right?

    2. PollyQ*

      I’m sorry; that’s awful news. I wouldn’t at all conclude that you screwed anything up, though. It may be that the company just went through a big re-org, laid off a third of their staff, got awful 1st quarter results, etc., etc. It is pretty crappy of them not to tell you why.

  66. SandyT*

    I’ve taught Computer Science in a Texas community college for the last 7 years. I moved out of the computer industry to teach community college classes because I always wanted to teach (adults), and most universities around my area required PhD’s when I was first looking. (I have a Masters degree in Computer Science.)

    However, lately I’ve seen Associate or Assistant Professor positions at local universities that list masters degrees as the basic requirement. I’m not sure about moving though because I’ve been told that if you don’t have a doctorate, you might be treated as a second-class professor in terms of class selection, extra service, etc. I actually don’t mind teaching the intro level classes, but I was treated like a second-class team member at my college for 6 years just because I was the newest, and it’s demeaning and frustrating.

    I guess I don’t want to jump from the frying pan into the fire. Does anyone who teaches at a university have an insider’s view on this?

    1. Reba*

      I don’t think there is a generalizable answer. I think it really depends on the individual job and the school/department culture, as you note from your previous experience!

      If these are non-tenure track, or renewable “teaching track” roles, or at smaller schools, that’s a different situation than at big research universities where lack of PhD would more definitely be limiting, as well as dinging your competitiveness at the application stage. That said, the fact that they require the master’s only (“only”) may mean that they have a hard time filling the role (assistant prof pay versus tech industry pay?).

    2. Academics Anonymous*

      Do you know anyone at the other universities that you can get a sense of the culture in the departments? Also, do the job descriptions indicate that they are tenure track? If they are, there might be an expectation that you would complete a doctorate before you get tenure. Tenure is up or out at my institution, so if you did not get the doctorate, you would lose your job in a year.

      Are the job descriptions looking for real world experience? Many universities are looking more for professors of practice, where experience in the corporate world is considered desirable. Look for if they have administrative and professional faculty, which are often on a yearly contract.

      Unfortunately, I don’t have definitive advice, since it is very dependent on the culture of the department, department chair and the other faculty members. One thing that you are probably aware of is to be aware of how you are paid and if you are nine-month or twelve-month faculty. Sometimes the positions are paid by the class and be exploitative, but that is mainly focused on adjunct faculty.

    3. Nesprin*

      My experience (adjunct, california CC) is that Masters are considered the floor, and they pay PhDs better, but also great teachers are great teachers. There’s been a push to have more of the CC faculty be PhD holders, but I am hard pressed to understand why- quite frankly the difference between an MS and a PhD is like 3 years of research experience, which does not translate to teaching.

  67. Rayray*

    How do you manage stress and anxiety in anew position? I recently had a sideways move in my job. I was highly complimented and told I was the first person they thought of to take this on but I am struggling a lot in the new position and even broke down and had a cry in the bathroom today. The people I work with are super nice but there’s so much to learn and so many different things and I feel like I’ll never get it. How do you all cope with new jobs?

    1. Nicotene*

      I *always* get terrible anxiety when I start a new job. It doesn’t peak right away either, it peaks several months in when I think “I should get this by now” and am still not certain about things. It passes after about a year unless something bad happens. Partly just knowing this about myself helps a lot. I can sort of plan for it. When I wake up in the middle of the night with my heart pounding, or when I can’t get out of bed right away because I can’t catch my breath, I remind myself, ‘this always happens but it passes.’ I also ask myself, what is it specifically I’m afraid of? That they’ll regret hiring me? That they’ll be disappointed? That I’ll be embarrassed? What is it? Facing it head on is better than letting it stay vague.

  68. SaffyTaffy*

    So hey – Amy Cooper, the “Central Park Karen” is suing her former employer Franklin Templeton for firing her the day the video of her being racist went viral.
    The argument seems to hinge on the idea that FT tweeted that they had done an “investigation” into the video but the language, the word “investigation,” is inaccurate, something something, therefore wrongful termination.
    So that’s interesting.

    1. Construction Safety*

      Saw that. NYS is “AT-Will” & all, but maybe FT didn’t adhere to company policy & that’s her claim. The video pretty much speaks for itself & once FT determined that it was real, that was good enough for them.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Is her defense “I’m not a racist” or “it’s illegal to fire me for being a racist” or “you didn’t do enough of an investigation to determine I’m actually a racist?”

        1. Malarkey01*

          I don’t follow this. For it to be gender or wage discrimination it would mean that the only reason they fired her was because she was white and a women. Is the company’s policy that it’s a’okay to make a false police report and scream like a nut and accuse a black man of attacking you if you’re a man or of a different race? Assuming they would fire anyone for this behavior which sort of blows a whole through her claim.

      3. SaffyTaffy*

        Rusty, the defense appears to be “my employer claimed they investigated the video of me being racist, but they knew they didn’t really investigate it as the word investigation applies in normal discourse, therefore they didn’t fire me appropriately.” It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me.

        1. Five after Midnight*

          Investigate – verb – 1. carry out a systematic or *formal* inquiry to discover and examine the facts of (an incident, allegation, etc.) so as to establish the truth.
          Here is how the investigation went: Did this incident really happened? Yes. End of investigation.
          Works for me… Eff her…

    3. Girasol*

      I wondered about that. Could she make it stick that she’s being discriminated against as a white woman if the company is full of white women who are not being discriminated against? In an at-will state they could fire her because they thought that she said something that could damage their reputation, even if they happened to be incorrect about what she said, can’t they? (Not that it’s likely, with the video gone viral, of course, but that seems to be the basis of her suit.)

    4. curiousLemur*

      Sounds like she’s going to make herself even more unemployable than she already is. I would think most companies would have fired her for that.

      1. Five after Midnight*

        She’s already so unemployable, this is the only way she can make any money – this is about getting a settlement because she can’t work.

  69. How the Turntables*

    Had an interview with HR today and they asked my salary expectations. I asked if they had a range in mind that had been budgeted for the position. She said they did but couldn’t disclose it because of firm policies. She said she would let me know if my expectations were within their range. This was just such an odd response to me. It was kind of awkward and I have to admit I kind of dug my heals in and dodged the question. I’m not super excited about the role. It would add significantly to my commute and based on Glassdoor reviews of similar roles, it seems unlikely they could offer an enticing compensation package.
    They reached out to me to ask me to apply. During an informal chat, I asked the contact who reached out to me if he had a sense of the salary range. He said he wasn’t sure what he could share, but she pointed me to Glassdoor and told me HR would discuss when they called me for the phone interview. Then HR refused to share…
    Should I have given in and put my expectations out there? I was probably feeling stubborn because they were so opaque about their expectations while expecting me to put mine on the table. How do you navigate this?

    1. Decidedly Me*

      I get wanting to dig in your heels at their reply, but it doesn’t really benefit you. If your number is out of line with their range, then you could be continuing with a process that will end with you saying no due to salary. If you’re not continuing due to this or other things, giving a number and hearing whether it was in/out of range could have been useful to post on Glassdoor for future interviewees. Of course, you have no obligation to do this if you don’t want to.

      1. Nicotene*

        Yeah I add an extra $50000 PITA fee when they are real slippery about what they offer but eventually I will list a number I’d be happy to have. You can’t extend the farce forever.

    2. Fitz*

      I agree with Decidedly, but if you’re not excited by the role, I’d just… not pursue it.
      It is odd to not even offer a range when directly asked because it benefits literally no one (unless they’re banking on sunk cost fallacy to get good candidates at under market prices).
      If you actually want the role still (though it doesn’t sound like it), I’d name what would be your minimum number of acceptance based on your knowledge of what the role contains (“I’d find it hard to leave my current role for anything less than X”), or the range that you’re looking at (“I’m currently seeking a salary of X – Y.”), but based on the vibes that you’re getting and the lack of general enthusiasm, I’d just withdraw from consideration and let that speak for itself.

    3. How the Turntables*

      Decided to just withdraw from consideration. Thanks all for your reflections. I realized that I just was not excited about the role and even a high salary wouldn’t have changed that.

    4. Brent*

      You should give a figure that makes you excited about the job. If it’s out of range, no loss.

  70. Karla K.*

    Question about showing appreciation for in-office staff:

    I (lower-middle management) have been working remotely. Our office admin goes in once a week and has performed a few (maybe ~4h over the course of a year) in-office tasks for me. These are within their position but I would have probably done them myself in normal times.

    I read this week’s earlier post, but didn’t see anything that spoke to my situation. My workplace is incredibly rigid, so no one is ever to get extra pay or vacation, ever. And this person’s boss is pretty disconnected, so I if praise them, boss will just sort of grunt and I’m not sure it will help their career much.

    Instead, I was thinking of a private thank-you — a card and a maybe $25 gift card. Does that strike the right note? People who have been here, what would you prefer?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      They spent four hours over the course of a year, doing something that falls within their job description anyway? Why would a genuine verbal thanks not be enough for that? I don’t mean that to be snarky – I just legitimately can’t fathom buying someone a gift card or writing them a thank you note for spending that little time on doing a part of their actual-facts job, and I’d probably be pretty baffled on the receiving end, because I don’t need my coworkers to pay me for doing my job, that’s what my employer is doing.

      1. Joan Rivers*

        A small token for the desk can be nice. A small bouquet of flowers maybe? Or smaller flowering plant. Something concrete that people might notice. Small.

    3. ronda*

      Years and Years ago, a manager in another work group that I was doing some work for sent me a thank you card and amex gift card. I thought it was nice and I still remember him because of it.

      I am not certain I used the gift card, cause I am terrible at remembering to do that, but I do think it is the best option, cause on the other hand, I have not been excited about any of the other “gifts” I have received at work :)

      If you know of something she likes, maybe that would make a nice gift. Otherwise a generic gift card is good.

  71. JustaTech*

    Last Betty update, and it’s awesome because it’s not about Betty!

    The Betty part: she was her flighty, flaking self on her last day (calling me to go tell the person she insisted on training on her last day that she would be late and oh could I set up all the materials?), but she was happy and bubbly and perfectly nice.

    The much better part: after Betty announced her resignation I talked with my 2X boss and 3X boss about where this would leave the group, and that I needed a promotion and a raise to at least Betty’s salary ( she was making $10K more than me in the same position).

    I got the promotion!

    The not-as-good part: even with the promotion the proposed raise is still not up to what Better was making, in a lower position. So when I go in to sign the promotion paperwork I’m going to talk to HR about why they aren’t willing to bring me up to the market rate (with evidence of the market rate in hand). I don’t know that it will make a difference. My HR person will probably claim “company rules” about raises, but I’ll take the opportunity to point out that what she’s doing is perpetuating a wage gap that started when I was hired.

    2. allathian*

      Good for you, congrats on the promotion and good luck with negotiating a higher salary.

  72. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

    how do you deal with a manager who absolutely refuses to be wrong? and i mean with anything. random things like basic math to work norms that have been around for years (i have been at this org a few years longer than they have). they have tried to dictate specific curriculum i teach and have taught successfully for a few years (curriculum that they do not teach and are not even certified to do so). whenever i try to explain the curriculum (developed by the CDC) they talk over me and try to tell me that it’s wrong and i’m wrong.
    my work holds continuing education trainings during the workday to maintain our certification (that work also paid for) but they argued that i can’t do them during the work day and have to do them on my own time. when i mentioned they’re offered during the workday (live and on Webex), and also mentioned that all my other coworkers are doing them during their workday (hell, the trainings are even TAUGHT LIVE BY MY OWN COWORKERS and they themselves sign us fellow colleagues up to attend) and manager just said “you’re wrong, just stop talking.”

    1. Workerbee*

      Work around him and above him. Assuming he is not positioned so he can monitor you 100% of the time, go to the live trainings anyway. Or watch the recordings during the work day.

      And document all the times he tells you you are wrong and to stop talking for the eventual conversation with his boss (if he has one) or higher than that.

      Day 47. Showed boss CDC guidelines for curriculum I have taught for X years. Boss’s response: “The CDC is wrong and so are you.”

      Day 96: Asked boss for approval to attend work-provided, work-mandated CEU training provided during the work day by work colleagues and attended during the work day by work colleagues, Boss’s response: “You’re wrong that you can attend these during the work day, just stop talking.”

      The sheer ridiculousness of it has got to trigger an appropriate action from somebody, hopefully…

      1. Workerbee*

        (Can’t resist)

        Day 204: Boss said my equation of 2+2=4 is wrong. See Days 1, 7, 19, 32, 44, 56, 78, 119, 127, 139, 156, 172, and 189 for similar instances.

        All seriously, I hope you can rid yourself of him soon and at great benefit to yourself. This guy sounds useless.

        1. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

          one of our tiffs was when they asked why i was working ten hour days and i replied that i work 8a-7pm (with a one hour lunch) and have for the past 3 years, well before they came along. they argued that if i took my one hour lunch, i wouldn’t have ten hour days. i explained that 8-5 is an eight hour day and 8a-7pm is ten hours, and they argued i was wrong.
          they also argued that i arrived at the office and clocked in at 7:58am one day, saying that i should arrive BEFORE 8am, not after.
          i wish i were kidding.

          1. Workerbee*

            Oh, my goodness. I hope all the people who enabled this guy to get to this level of authority experience reciprocal pain.

    2. PollyQ*

      Your boss sucks, and he isn’t going to change. How you deal with them is you find a different manager to work for, either within the same company or out of it.

      1. ferrina*

        +1 You can’t make someone change who clearly doesn’t want to change. Your options are all about working around him and trying not to get sucked in to his oddities. Sometimes this can be done for a year or so, but after that it really can mess with people’s norms.

  73. Lord Voldemort of Dance*

    I want to share an offer letter with my skip, not to trigger a counteroffer but to get her to see that I am strong enough in X that I’m getting offered a title and salary bump at another well-known company in an X-focused role. I also want us to have a real discussion about the changes I’d like to see. Can you advise me on how I should approach this during our 1:1?

    Context. Let’s say I’m a junior musical actor and I was considered strong in tap dancing in previous jobs. At Acme Co., some managers tell my skip that I’m a bad dancer, my arm movements are terrible. My skip believes this because she doesn’t know dancing and doesn’t understand that these managers have a history of sabotaging juniors that they see as competition. My feedback now always calls out my poor tap dancing. Musical actors who can’t dance don’t get raises or promotions. It’s also making me feel gaslighted. They want me to admit I’m a bad a dancer and say how I’m going to “work on it.”

    I was recently recruited by Beta Corp. for a senior tap dancer position. My take-home and 1-hour performance got great feedback and they offered me the job with an almost 30% bump. They raved about what a good tap dancer I am, how difficult that is to find in our location.

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I can’t tell if you’re intending to accept the Beta Corp offer or not. If so, then I don’t think it much matters what you think Acme Co should change or what they think of your tap dancing ability, they’re about to become dramatically not your monkeys. And if not, then … well, honestly, I’m curious as to why not, haha.

      1. Lord Voldemort of Dance*

        For the reasons shared below I’m leaning towards declining. Things are getting better in Acme since the skip took over. I just don’t know if she’s going to manage out the toxic old guard. My top choice would be to continue here if I can be pretty sure the sexist/biased feedback will stop and the glass ceiling has cracked.

    2. It's me*

      If your boss is actively sabotaging you, what makes you think this conversation with your grand-boss is worthwhile? Why not take the job offer and get out?

      1. Lord Voldemort of Dance*

        My direct boss is not sabotaging me. But he is busy with childcare issues and also a bit institutionalized in the department’s hierarchical culture. Think advice like “it will be fine, you get a raise when you get raise around here, ” and “if only you took a softer tone, people will listen to you more”.

        My skip is new to the department and has often voice his concern about culture. He’s also given me good feedback.

        1. Lord Voldemort of Dance*

          My skip is new to the department and has often voiced her concern about culture. She’s also given me good feedback. *

          Sorry for the misgendering

    3. Colette*

      I don’t really see how that would be useful. Here’s the thing – people who work with you every day will generally have a more accurate view of your work. A lot of skills are subjective; Beta Corp might think you are a great tap dancer because they are looking for A, B, and C, while your current employer might need a little of B but mostly D and E. So saying “Beta Corp wants to hire me” is not going to do anything good for you – it’s not compelling evidence that your current company is wrong, and it tells them you’re looking to leave.

      Why don’t you take the Beta Corp position?

      1. Lord Voldemort of Dance*

        I really like being a generalist and going to this Beta role means becoming a specialist. Acme is also much larger than Beta, many business units to move to IF I can get promoted out of junior rank. And finally there’s COVID. My region is not widely vaxed and the Beta role is essential service with a lot of travel and in person meetings.

    4. PollyQ*

      Take the job at Beta and don’t look back. You’re not going to be able to fix the problems at your current company with one discussion, nor will you get the acknowledgment of your abilities that you’re hoping for. This sounds like a dysfunctional organization with dysfunctional employees, and the best thing you can do is stop caring about them.

    5. Ice scream*

      Fwiw you’ve actually just described trying to get a counter offer. Take the new job!

      1. RagingADHD*

        Yes, you want to leverage the offer to get changes made at your current job.

        That’s what a counter-offer is.

    7. The New Wanderer*

      I understand the temptation, I’m in a similar situation myself. I did actually share the offer news to see what kind of counteroffer I would get (if any), but one of the things on my ‘wish list’ that would keep me there is to see my division build its own team of experts. I’m the only one they have, first one for the division that wasn’t on temporary loan from another division, and when I leave they’ll be back to relying on that other division for resources.

      But the people who can make these decisions haven’t listened to me before and they aren’t going to listen now. They didn’t see me as valuable enough but my future employers do. I think the departure for the job you got due to the clear strengths you always had (that were ignored and talked down about) speaks for itself. Enjoy your new role, new respect, and new salary bump!

      1. Lord Voldemort of Dance*

        Thank you, it helps to hear from someone who actually did it. It sounds like sharing the offer did clarify where you stood? Was there bad reaction? What did you did your do too make sure the discussion didn’t become emotional?

  74. anon today*

    What do you wish you could say to your coworkers today (that you definitely won’t)? Let’s not get too rage-y. I’ll start:

    Fergus, if you say you are going to write a brief for me to do minor/local edits on, you can’t email me a copy-pasted Wikipedia page at 4:00 and ask me to “work [my] magic on it”. The magic would be throwing it away and starting over. What exactly have you spent the whole day doing????

    1. Nicotene*

      Dear Columbia, it is not actually helpful when I send you my responses to the RFP, which is character limited, and then you write much longer sentences that don’t fit in the character limits. Why do you think this is progress. Why??

    2. ThatGirl*

      I’m gonna find a way to approach this more diplomatically next week, but my irritation today is that I spent a fair amount of time writing something in a Word document instead of a spreadsheet template only to find out that it does actually need to be in a spreadsheet for the channel marketing person, but my manager likes Word better so that’s why she had me start it that way; oh, and by the way, this spreadsheet is not on Sharepoint (unlike all of the other ones) so I have to add it to the Teams document and then save a copy and send it to Channel….

      It’s WAY too many steps and completely unnecessary to duplicate the work so many times!

      1. curiousLemur*

        “it does actually need to be in a spreadsheet for the channel marketing person, but my manager likes Word better so that’s why she had me start it that way” Aaaaaaah! Why do people do that?!

    4. Amber Rose*

      I’ve been working here for six years doing the exact same job. Could you stop leaving me off emails about my job and randomly including newer employees on them? You’re confusing them and slowing the whole process down.

      Not only that, it’s inexcusable to not know, after SIX YEARS, what information I need to create your documents. FFS. Get your shit together.

    5. Unkempt Flatware*

      Dear boss, a blank spot in my calendar is not an indication that I’m playing with my bellybutton. Please don’t assume you can come in and hold me hostage while you brainstorm at me. I prefer not to see or talk to you unless necessary.

    6. Workerbee*

      Dear Higher Level Colleague,

      Just because you like to claim you are sooo busy doesn’t mean that (a) anyone else actually believes you or (b) you can thanks-in-advance at me for assigning me a menial part of your legitimate job. I may not have your lofty title nor an office, but I neither report to you nor am I support staff. The time it took you to send me an email asking me, since you are So Busy!, to email your own client and coordinate with our office manager for a meeting spot on your own calendar could have been an email sent directly to those persons. But you keep pushing, don’t you. And you keep being puzzled at my Grey Rock of Friendly Not-Doing-It.

      Sincerely,
      I’ve Had Colleagues Like You Before

    7. Alex*

      Fergus, that question you asked in a pompous and authoritative tone just highlights that you have absolutely no idea what is going on or how the most basic functions of your job are supposed to go.

      Fergus, I literally solved this exact problem for you YESTERDAY. Why can’t you remember how to do it and are asking me for help again?

      Fergus, the error message that says “File Missing” means THE FILE IS MISSING. It’s in English. Why does it baffle you?

    8. Rusty Shackelford*

      Please read my email again and explain to me how this nonsense you sent is supposed to be a response.

    9. A Genuine Scientician*

      “Jane, you say you want me to take ownership of X, but then you shoot down literally every idea I have about it, revert all the changes I make in it, and tell me that I need to run everything by you about it, even though you are not my boss or supervisor. If I am going to take ownership of something, that means you need to relinquish some control. If you don’t want to do that, stop saying you want me to take ownership of it.”

    10. hot priest*

      Dear Sharon,

      There are not “two sides” to colonization or imperialism and pointing out the problems with modern western science’s systematic violence against Indigenous peoples, women, and other marginalized groups is not the same thing as denying the advantages of science and technology.

      GAH. But today was my last day! So I’ve got that goin’ for me.

    11. comityoferrors*

      Karen, when you insist that you’ve never seen or heard a concept that I know I taught you, it doesn’t make me grant more leniency to you. It makes me document every single conversation we have and continue handing the more interesting work to your coworker who has a sense of accountability. Also, for the love of god, please start writing shit down. “I’m new” will only get you so far when you learned these tasks two months ago.

    12. willow for now*

      When you email something to me that you need me to work on, please mention what project it is. I work for nine PMs on at least 20 projects.

  75. Chidi has a stomach ache*

    I’m having a weird combination of grief and career FOMO. A few years back, a mentor of mine from graduate school said she was hoping I would apply for her job (a director position) when she retired. At the time, that was 5 years out (so another 2 or 3 years from today).

    Then, she died a few months ago from a recurrence of breast cancer. It was pretty sudden, and I only learned she was in hospice a few days before she passed. They just posted her job a few weeks ago, and a member of my graduate cohort sent it to me. My husband and I talked about it, and it just isn’t possible right now for us to move back to the state where the job is — I’m less than a year into a new job (that I like!) and his career options where the director position would be are non-existent. I know that not applying is the right decision for us, but I can get over a nagging feeling like I’m giving up a potential dream job and letting my mentor down. It’s hard to disentangle all these feelings, professional and personal, from one another!

    1. Qwerty*

      I am sorry for your loss!

      I don’t think you are letting your mentor down, and I doubt she would see it that way. I’m so sorry that you didn’t get to talk to her before she passed. Your mentor probably wanted you to take over the role mainly because she thought it would be a great opportunity for *you*. Possibly it would also have been easier to accept retirement and disengage from the job if you were in it (or that your relationship would allow her to hear updates). If it helps ease your guilt, another way to look at it would be that if you mentor wanted you in this role so badly, the two of you would have been in touch more and working on a plan to prep you for the role, or you would have gotten a call earlier in the recurrence policy. I am sure that your mentor would love that you are in a job that you enjoy and have built a life that you want to stick with!

      To give an anecdote, I have a mentor who I am very close to and has spent the last 5yrs casually trying to convince me to move back my old city and join his team. If it didn’t involve a move, I’d take it in a heartbeat. Right when his company was finally starting to allow fully remote employees and it looked like I was going to finally join his team, a Llama company reached out me, where Llamas have been why I got into this field. My mentor’s response? “you love llamas, don’t even think about my team until you’ve pursued this”. Because mentors really just want you to succeed.

    2. PollyQ*

      First, I’m very sorry for your loss. It’s always hard when people go before their time, and the “suddenly” part only makes it worse.

      Second, a good mentor would have wanted you to be successful and happy by your own definition. So as long as you’re doing that, you’re not letting her down.

    3. Keep it sleazy!*

      I’m sorry to hear that you lost a mentor. Of course that loss is worth grieving.

      That said, I think that a real mentor wouldn’t want you to sacrifice your whole non-work life for a job! I think it’s fine to acknowledge a sense of disappointment that the director job isn’t a good fit for you overall, if you’ve come to that conclusion, but I hope that you can do that without feeling like you’ve let your mentor down somehow. Working in a job that you enjoy and living in a location that gives your family good options are worth celebrating.

  76. Good News!*

    My company just added a maternity AND parental leave policy! The best part is they explicitly wrote the two as having different criteria so that parental leave can be taken after completing maternity leave! The parental leave policy also can be taken over the course of the first year following the arrival of a child and be split into a couple of chunks, so there’s flexibility. I’m not a parent but I’m so excited by how much this policy shows that the company cares that I’ve been telling everyone and hoping their companies will use it as a template when updating their policies. We’re a small company too (<100 people) and this is our first attempt at a formal policy (previously was handled adhoc as needed) so it's not like it takes a big corporation to support this.

    Just wanted to share since I know this is a hot topic around here. I know of several companies implementing or rewriting their parental policies, so maybe this will influence another place. :)

  77. General Organa*

    Hi! My small nonprofit employer is considering allowing me to stay remote in TX as opposed to moving to their base in NY. Does anyone have experience navigating the tax implications of something like that, whether in those states or others? Thanks!

    1. ATX*

      It depends on the company, I think (but am no expert). My husband recently went through this, where he was offered a job where he would be remote in TX, but the job was based in WI. The question came up on whether he would have to pay taxes for both states, or something like that, and he had to clarify with the company. Thankfully, it was only applicable to Texas taxes :)

    2. Shersher*

      YMMV but when my daughter worked in an east coast state for a west coast company, they took out taxes for both states. Total PITA for her. At the end of the year, she had to file taxes in both states. She got a full refund of the west coast taxes. I don’t think that is how the company should have done it, but… sigh.. they did.
      In some states where workers often come from bordering states for work, they do have to pay non-resident taxes which is BS, but then I don’t make the law.
      Double check in your case just so you know what you’re getting into.

    3. violet04*

      I live in Ohio in City A. Prior to 2020, I worked at my company office in City B, which is also in Ohio. Taxes were automatically taken out of my paycheck for City B. I had to pay quarterly taxes myself for City A.

      My company has offices around the US, and the headquarters is in Colorado. That Colorado location is what shows up on my W2 as the company address.

      My office building in City B shut down mid-2020 and I started WFH permanently. In my company’s internal system, I changed my work address to my home address. After that update was made, taxes are now automatically taken out for City A. It’s nice only having to pay taxes for one city.

      This is just my experience, so definitely verify with your company on how they handle things like this.

    4. Bon Voyage*

      Not an accountant or lawyer or anything, but I worked for a NY company from another state for a few years. New York is quite protective about claiming income tax for anyone who works in/through the state, especially outside of some Tri-State agreements. I owed NY state taxes on my wages, which I could then claim on my state income taxes in the state where I lived.

      If you happen to be working for a NYC-based company, I believe you can file for an exemption on the city income tax, but you will owe state income tax to the wages you earned from a NY-based company.

      1. Five after Midnight*

        Generally speaking, you ALWAYS pay income taxes in your state of residence, and you MAY pay income taxes in the state of your employment. The latter depends on specific state rules and how your employer is set up.

        +1 re: “New York is quite protective about claiming income tax for anyone who works in/through the state, especially outside of some Tri-State agreements.”
        Normally, if you work in New York state (“NYS”) 14 days out of the year, your ENTIRE annual income from that job is subject to NYS tax. So, technically, if I am in our Manhattan office just a bit more often than once a month, I should be paying NYS income tax even if my main office is in a different state. But how would NYS know? Generally, only if your employer keeps track of your comings and goings and prepares your W-2 based on those.

        But NYS also considers WFH days to be days you spend in the NYS office if you do not have another permanent place of business. So, if your “small nonprofit employer” has only a NYS office, then by default you are likely to be considered NYS employee, especially if they are not registered to do business in TX.

        Bottom line – check with your employer, but be prepared to be subject to NYS income tax and required to file NYS non-resident return.

        P.S. “If you happen to be working for a NYC-based company, I believe you can file for an exemption on the city income tax” – No. If you are a NYC non-resident, NYC is precluded from taxing you even if you work there. IIRC, there was a big lawsuit over “commuter” tax a number of years back and NYC dropped it.

  78. Anima*

    Math schooling question:
    Either my brain wasn’t configured for math as a teen or I had incredible bad teachers, in any case I struggled extremely with math during school (Gymnasium = German equivalent to high school). Now, 15 years later, I can do math just fine, and I mean “higher” math like linear algebra and analysis, not just math for daily use. I’m amazed by my own brain how quick I grasp concepts and can do assignments now vs. in school.

    What is your experience with math during your lifetime?

    1. ATX*

      As a person who did not enjoy nor excel in Algebra, Chemistry, or any type of abstract thinking subject like that, I can attest that I would do much better at it now than when I was in school 15 years ago. I think there’s something to say for being able to think more logically as an adult, and perhaps that has something to do with it.

      1. The Rural Juror*

        Also, it has so much to do with context! I took a class in college called “Applications of Modern Math” where we learned how to calculate interest by pretending to take out a car loan, went over statistics in a way that tied back to a story or real social issue, and used algebra for a real life situation that ACTUALLY made sense. It wasn’t necessarily easier than high school, but it was tied to real events in a way that made it so much easier to wrap our heads around. It was a fun class! The professor was awesome, so that helped.

        I use algebra in my job almost every day now. I think I made all Cs in my algebra classes when I was in school.

    2. Nicotene*

      I so wish I could go back and start over. I had a bad attitude about math and decided early on that I “couldn’t do it.” I still probably don’t have the best type of brain for math but I think with a patient teacher I would do so much better now.

    3. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I almost feel like my experience was the opposite. I did great in my math classes all through school because I could memorize formulas and show my work like nobody’s business. But if you gave me an algebra problem now, I’d have no idea what to do. Ironically, the one math class I never took at any level was statistics, and that’s the math that I use most often in my job and daily life.

    4. Enough*

      I think part of this is that too much is taught for too little a time. Repetition is necessary for true competency. And what we do in our jobs or everyday life is usually only a subset of what we were supposed to learn in school. It;s much easier to be good/very good at 1 or 2 things than 10.

    5. Lifelong student*

      When I was a school child, math was certainly not my favorite subject. It was always called arithmetic back then. I did fine in all classes, even taking honors courses, until it got very theoretical- like advanced algebra and statistics and to this day I do not understand calculus! The math based courses I had to take while earning my MBA were the worst thing I ever studied.

      However, as a CPA, people think I am good with numbers. The logic is understanding what results mean does not require understanding how or being able to generate the numbers!

      When I was teaching accounting at the university level, I had a standing joke with my students that they could feel free to correct my arithmetic errors because I often make them on the fly- but I do know how to proof my work and relate results.
      I often would say that accounting is not math- it is logic. Like solving crossword does not always require spelling knowledge if one is able to apply knowledge of word structure.

    6. Qwerty*

      I miss math! I had the opposite experience. I loved it as a subject in school and had to take a lot of calc in college. But haven’t used it since. I tried to do a triple integral problem the other day for fun and was sad that I got it wrong.

      I think the key with math is that it is all building blocks. So if you didn’t grasp a concept early on, it just seems harder and more convoluted as you go on. I don’t even blame the teachers – they have to keep 30 kids on schedule. I think what helped my siblings and myself was my parents made school, especially math, a priority. So if they couldn’t help, we were pushed to find resources and make friends with the smart kids who could help us. Which led to a culture in our classes of helping each other when someone gets stuck because sometimes a kid can do a better job translating the concept into “teen language” than a teacher can.

    7. JelloStapler*

      I would say elementary Math has gotten easier, but I have not touched algebra or higher since college.

    8. Girasol*

      Is it the difference between higher math and arithmetic? Now that I’m older they seem more like two rather different subjects to me. Math seems more like logic and arithmetic the basic manipulation of numbers. Not that they aren’t related, but I feel like they’re not the same.

    9. curiousLemur*

      I think attitude and teaching can make a huge difference in how math is learned. In college, I had a couple of higher-level math classes where the teachers never actually explained how to solve the problems – they just talked about the theory (I had another couple of math classes where the teachers were great).

      In the classes where I had to get help from the math lab (from other students who had done well in those classes), it was amazing how simple the math problems seemed once one of the knowledgeable students explained it. Without that help, I might have failed the classes. With help to learn how to solve the problems, I did great.

    10. Nela*

      I was a math whiz during my school years, even went to competitions. But in university I studied engineering (that I didn’t actually want, but didn’t dare go to art school) and I completely lost interest in math and barely passed the advanced classes. It’s as if the lack of enthusiasm shut my brain down and now I struggle to add 2-digit numbers in my head. I use spreadsheets and calculators for everything. Luckily I don’t need advanced math in my work, but the sudden drop in my ability makes me feel a bit “stupid”.

      “Maybe it’s me, and maybe it’s ADHD!”

  79. A Non-Moose*

    A job at my organization, that I thought I had always wanted until the last 2 years or so, opened up. I applied to learn more and go through the process. The department was excited to see me apply and I have gotten a lot of encouragement from peers. It is the same classification/grade (which is weird due to the title) but could be a pay raise of about $5K *if* they offer the high end of the range.

    After the interview and a lot of soul-searching, I have decided not to proceed. I was not interested in the day-to-day of the job compared to loving what I do no, plus having a lot of flexibility and capital. I also think the increased workload will negatively impact my mental health already rebounding after a hard 2 years personally. I would be taking it for the sake of taking it, not because I was excited about it.

    The dilemma: They will be making their choices “hopefully soon”. I have a sense I could be a very strong candidate, but of course am not 100%. Do I withdraw my candidacy, or do I wait to see if I am offered to see if I can get a counter from my current job out of it? I also recognize that feels shady, but it’s also done. Another concern is what if they do not give me the counter and I lose face staying anyway (because there are other reasons I am staying that make up for the possible raise elsewhere).

    What say ye, AAM? Anyone relate?

    1. fish*

      If it helps, Alison always strongly advises against going the counter-offer route — it just leads to bad feelings all along. But you may as well wait to see if you get an offer — it will give you some useful info about how the job market views you and can help inform future job searches.

    2. TimeTravlR*

      I would withdraw in this particular case. Do not try to use an offer as leverage.

    3. Blue Eagle*

      Maybe I’m misunderstanding your letter, but it sounds like the new position is in a different department but for the same organization that you currently work. If so, then it has been my experience that they will not bid against themselves to get a particular employee. Which likely means that there is no way that your current department would match an offer from a different department who would be giving you a promotion.
      If I am reading your situation correctly and if you would not take the new job if offered, my recommendation would be to withdraw from consideration now.

  80. saradactyl*

    I got into a major disagreement with my boss yesterday because she was unhappy with me for not telling her on a day she was supposed to be off that I would be clocking in an hour late to get a tire fixed. I made up the hour yesterday and I’m not behind on any tasks or performing poorly: She works in a different state than I do and we’re both 100% remote. I’ve been her direct report for three years and thought up until now, due to both her telling me this and my increased responsibilities, that I was a senior and trusted member of our team. This conversation went so poorly that I’ve asked HR to mediate our next conversation. I’ve never asked HR to intervene like this and I’m quite anxious about it. Did I make the right call here?

    1. merope*

      Was the issue the hour or the lack of notice? In other words, would you have told her about the hour if she had been going to be at work? Did you know about the tire in advance or was it an emergency?

      1. saradactyl*

        She says it was the lack of notice, but honestly, no I wouldn’t have. It wouldn’t have occurred to me to bother her with something as insignificant as being an hour late for a one-off like this, whether she was working that day or not.

        1. merope*

          Have you done this before, or is this the first time you have arrived late/left early without notice?

          1. saradactyl*

            I’ve done this before but she’s never noticed, to my knowledge. I don’t take advantage of it but I was operating under the assumption that I could manage my time this way for like, life things like tires and the doctor, as long as my work is done. I don’t just screw off for no reason without making sure I take care of what I need to do before and after.

            1. TimeTravlR*

              I think everything you are saying here makes sense. If she counters that she wants to know your schedule at all time (unreasonable IMO, for your described role) then just agree. And text her bright and early when you have to have an emergency tooth repair or whatever.
              I like to think at this point in my life I am adult enough to be able to manage my time and get my work done, as it sounds like you do. Maybe she will hear you and be more reasonable. I hope so!

              1. Colette*

                I don’t see letting your boss know you won’t be in as expected as incompatible with being able to manage your own time. It’s like letting people know when you’ll be home; they’re not controlling where you go or what you do, it’s just a courtesy so they know you’re not supposed to be home rather than thinking you’re dead.

                1. Rusty Shackelford*

                  I agree. Managing your own time means deciding to come in an hour late because something came up, rather than asking for permission. But it doesn’t mean leaving everyone else unaware.

                2. pancakes*

                  Thinking that someone is dead if they haven’t been heard from in an hour or are an hour late is pretty extreme catastrophizing. I think it’s unreasonable to expect an employee with a fairly senior role and the autonomy that comes with it to get in touch with their boss on the boss’s day off in an effort to prevent them from catastrophizing, if that’s what’s going on. I’m not sure what else could be going on.

                  I don’t see any reason to believe someone who adjusts their schedule on one day intends to do so forevermore, either. I don’t think that would be a reasonable guess for the boss to make.

                3. Colette*

                  @pancakes It’s not that adjusting your schedule once means you’re going to do it forever; it’s that when someone finds out you didn’t tell them about something they want to know about, they are naturally concerned that there have been other times they didn’t find out about.

                  And there’s no need to interrupt the boss’s day off, just send an email to the boss’s work account so she’s in the loop.

                4. pancakes*

                  I think that’s catastrophizing, too. “This person didn’t tell me they’d be an hour late on a day I wasn’t working so maybe they do it all the time” isn’t a reasonable position for the boss to take. I do agree, though, that there’s no downside to emailing the boss every time.

    2. Colette*

      I think her concern is that if you don’t tell her you’re not in, she isn’t in a position to know if you regularly come in an hour late or if it was a one-time thing. If you have to shift your hours in the future, be really diligent about sending her an email to let her know.

      1. saradactyl*

        Certainly, that makes sense and I’ve done that before. Just a couple weeks ago I wanted to flex my hours to work 7-3 instead of 9-5 and I gave her a heads up and she said that was fine. If this were a repair that would have needed me to be away for several hours I would have alerted her. I just didn’t think an hour late warranted similar. I’m okay with being wrong about this if that’s her management style – I don’t agree with it as her employee because it chafes me to have to be monitored that closely, but that’s a me thing, and I will do it if that’s the conclusion. My issue with the conversation was that she started to kind of…level accusations against me that I was trying to skirt accountability and communication, and when I tried to counter and say I thought I had earned more latitude and trust and I thought the company operated based on trust, she basically said that’s not how she operates. I found that pretty unfair and it hurt me to hear. I don’t want to have another conversation with her like that.

        1. Colette*

          I always let my manager know, for a couple of reasons. First of all, transparency about when you are working and when you are not is important – it is what builds trust. But also, if your manager finds out you are not at work when you are supposed to be from someone else, that makes her wonder what else you’re not telling her, and that’s not what you want. If you were in the building, she’d be responsible for knowing when you were in if something happened (e.g. fire). It’s not different because you’re remote.

          I get that she didn’t handle this well, but I would strongly advise just telling her – pushing back against this is going to end badly. It takes a minute to send an email “Hi boss, just letting you know I’ll be in an hour late today, I’ll make up the time in the afternoon.”

          In fact, you can also talk to her now. “Hi boss, I wanted to apologize for the way I reacted yesterday. I didn’t think shifting my hours on a day you were out of the office was a big deal, but I understand why you were upset and I will let you know in the future.”

        2. curiousLemur*

          I don’t think this is personal. It sounds like she doesn’t trust anyone.

          I’m surprised she wanted to be notified on her day off.

      2. Workerbee*

        Also, if someone asks where the OP is, the boss won’t know. And bosses don’t like being caught off guard!

        Relatedly, I would tell my direct reports back in the pre-COVID days that if they decided they were going to work remote that day for whatever reason, just drop me a line so I’ll know in case somebody comes bleating up to me that Melinda isn’t at her desk. (OldJob was very slow on granting WFH privileges, but my boss let me run my department as I saw fit.) Same if they were going to be late. I trusted them to make up their time if they had to—I’m more in favor of letting adults be adults and also not bothering about an hour or two, but I was stuck with a timeclock system for some of them—but it just went back to me knowing in case anything came up.

        1. pancakes*

          That’s true, but it seems unlikely someone would be looking for OP via their boss on a day when the boss isn’t working.

        2. WellRed*

          The boss wasn’t working! Why is this so weird that OP felt she could manage on her own schedule? She’s done it before. Start nickel and diming employees and don’t write in crying when turnover goes up. And take op at her word that this should have been fine.

    3. ThatGirl*

      I can understand your frustration, and I think she overreacted a bit, but if it were me I would have let her or *someone* know I was going to be an hour late – with the idea of telling, not asking, but I think it’s considerate to let your manager know if you’ll be offline at an unexpected time.

    4. The Rural Juror*

      I’ve been in a situation before where I was going to be about 30 minutes late because of something out of my control. I didn’t alert my boss because I knew he had plans to be on the road very early that morning to travel to our remote site. I didn’t want to bother him with it, and there was a chance it wouldn’t take long and I was going to be about 15-20 min late, which isn’t a big deal.

      When I did get to the office, about 20 min late, he was here and was very unhappy with me. He had unexpectedly had to reschedule his day and was pissed when I didn’t show up on time, but also hadn’t alerted him. I told him I hadn’t want to bother him with it, but he was angry about having to change his plans and was taking some of that anger out on me. He apologized the next and realized it wasn’t as big a deal as he made it, and really he was just in a bad mood and caught off-guard.

      I wonder if maybe your boss is doing the same thing, but the major difference is that she’s continuing to be unreasonable and doesn’t want to backtrack or apologize to admit she’s somewhat in the wrong. She obviously used language that was upsetting to you. I hope having HR mediate with help her realize her reaction is over the top. I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this!

      1. The Rural Juror*

        Also, I should point out, it’s pretty common for us to be a few minutes late because of unexpected traffic from an accident. Half the time I’ll text him (by talking to Siri) to tell him there’s an accident, not sure what time I’ll make it there. He’ll see it like 30 minutes later after I’ve already reached the office. I didn’t think I should text him about my lateness when I had thought he would be driving.

        1. Joan Rivers*

          I would apologize for not realizing what she wanted.
          And then would smother her w/updates for every little thing. Politely.
          It’s possible the mgr. has her own issues
          OR
          that she had some other moment when she noticed you weren’t available.
          Let her get sick of hearing your updates. But let it go. Let her be the boss.
          That doesn’t mean you can’t look at the job market too though.

    5. Girasol*

      Your decision on the tire repair seems reasonable. Calling in HR, well, maybe. I had a manager who sometimes flew off the handle and chewed me out over a minor matter. In our next meeting I would present him with a plan to assure that it would never, ever happen again. He would be surprised at me making such a fuss over a silly thing that he didn’t remember even mentioning. His blow-up that had impressed me as a huge career-limiting issue was too minor for him to recall. It’s possible your boss was having a bad day and taking it out on you over some little thing. In which case, if it’s a one-off error on her part and she hasn’t made a habit of doing it, you might not want to make a big deal of it.

    6. Malarkey01*

      I give the people I manage a ton of flexibility and everyone can pretty much manage themselves, BUT we have a shared calendar that everyone updates if they change hours and if that’s not possible (something comes up and you can’t access the calendar/sick/etc) you need to call or email our admin to do it. It can be incredibly frustrating when you need to find someone for an answer to something, impromptu meeting, or just info for something you’ve got in front of you and you have no idea where that person is or if they’re coming in or just in the restroom and will be right back. If it happens at a bad time it does sometimes escalate.
      I wouldn’t necessarily get HR involved (unless she was really off the rails and abusive) I think it’s going to add fuel to the fire. I would apologize and explain that you didn’t realize she needed notice if you had to shift things an hour, but now you know. If she’s a good boss and if it was a little harsher than she’d normally be that might be enough for her to calm down and hopefully not assume this is a pattern.

  81. Will this cost me my new job?*

    I was depressed for a while and felt stuck in my current job while failing to secure a job offer despite job-searching every single day. Sometime last month, I decided I needed to quit either way, started planning on a vacation, and was set on dying my hair pink (just to change things up but also to stop myself from trying to get an interview instead of being in vacation mode 100%).

    Then of course, lo and behold, I was suddenly presented yesterday with a job offer from one of the better companies I interviewed with. By this point, I already have a timeline of all the things I’d planned to do in case I didn’t get an offer and have already fantasized the new personality I’ll suddenly have with pink hair.

    I normally work in corporate settings, not 100% formal but my positions are usually on the more “serious” side and my coworkers tend to lean conservative. I must confess I don’t like to attract attention, and to me it seems easier to be the girl with the pink hair from day one instead of showing up with a different look one day and inviting all sorts of comments. However, I also feel like I can only get away with it if I’ve proven myself to be exceptionally competent, which usually takes about two months.

    Thoughts?

    1. Colette*

      I think this depends on both industry and company. Can you ask your future manager?

      1. Sans $$*

        I agree, just reach out and ask HR or the new manager for a general overview of the dress code, including hair colors if relevant, so that you can be prepared for your first day. A very normal ask from my perspective of someone with tattoos!

    2. Qwerty*

      Do you think the hair will be against the dress code? Would a check in with the recruiter saying “I have pink hair – will that be a problem?” help answer that for you? Do this in a phone call or email (not video!) so you can pretend you already have pink hair.

      It’s a pandemic, people have been experimenting with their appearance! Call it your pandemic hair if they ask about it. You can decide later if you want to stay pink, try another color, or go back to your natural color. If you feel really self conscious, blame it on going stir crazy over not being able to celebrate memorial day weekend.

      Enjoy your pink hair!

    3. TimeTravlR*

      My co-worker in a traditionally conservative setting changes her hair color to match her outfit! I couldn’t allow myself to attract that much attention but I love that she does it! No one ever says anything bad about it. But yes check with the hiring manager just to be safe.

  82. (Vice) President? Postdoc*

    I am currently in an academic postdoc in a biology field. I’m 99.999% sure that I want to move away from academia into industry or consulting, but I have at least a year left in my postdoc. I have the opportunity to take on a leadership position in the institution’s postdoctoral society. I will be involved in some way regardless, but would a higher level position (president or VP) be appealing to anyone outside of academia? On the one hand it might show some leadership skills, but on the other, I know that few outside of the academy care much about these “extra curriculars”. Thanks!

  83. Panic!*

    I had a panic attack yesterday due to a coworker sending me a flurry of instant messages that I didn’t know how to respond to (severe social anxiety – HR and boss are aware but it’s usually not a problem). I’ve only ever had a panic attack at work once before, when I accidentally deleted everyone’s phone numbers in the live system, but that was several years and two bosses ago.

    Do I need to tell someone…? I took my lunch break to calm down and told the coworker I had been busy so it’s not like there was any business consequence, but it’s not exactly ok to go to pieces over someone’s obnoxious idea of humour.

    1. SomebodyElse*

      What would you be gaining by telling anyone? It honestly sounds like a non-event for anyone involved (understandably it was an event for you, but maybe think of it as a solo event).

      I think the best thing to do is acknowledge to yourself it happened, pat yourself on the back for dealing with it in a constructive way, and tucking that method of dealing with it into your toolbox for next time.

    2. FD*

      Hello, fellow person with panic disorder!

      Here’s what I would ask myself. Is it normal for you to have panic attacks in this particular situation? Like, would this regularly trigger you or is this something you could usually handle?

      If it’s something I can usually handle, that usually means that I need to look at other areas of my…for lack of a better term, self-care plan. Am I sleeping enough? Eating properly? Exercising to the level that’s normal to me? Is there something unusual going on at work or at home that’s causing extra stress? Do I need to talk to my therapist about what’s going on? Do I need to talk to a psychiatrist about medication options?

      If it’s something that would consistently trigger you and if this is a coworker who you’ll have to deal with, then it might be helpful to say something. I wouldn’t necessarily talk about the anxiety–a lot of people aren’t the best with dealing with that–but maybe say something like “Hey, when I get a whole bunch of IMs, it’s really distracting. Is there any chance you could send it all in one message or in an email instead?” (Or whatever would actually be less stressful for you.)

      1. curiousLemur*

        “Hey, when I get a whole bunch of IMs, it’s really distracting. Is there any chance you could send it all in one message or in an email instead?”

        I like this way of wording it.

    3. Four lights*

      I don’t think so. I think work wise, you handled it. I’m not sure what mental health resources you have /have used for dealing with panic attacks, but you can revisit those to see if there’s anything you can do differently in the future.

    4. Colette*

      I don’t think you have to tell anyone you had a panic attack. I do think you should talk with your coworker about a flurry of instant messages as a joke(?) And if the coworker takes that as a reason to do it again, disconnect from them and let them email you.

    5. Just @ me next time*

      Think about it like it’s any other health issue that came up at work. Based on your relationship with your supervisor and the nature of the work you do, would you be expected to disclose if you had to run to the washroom to handle a nosebleed or a digestive emergency? You said there were no business consequences, so I’m thinking the answer to that is probably no.

      The other thing to think about is whether there’s a specific accommodation you need to ask for from your supervisor. If you think there’s a concrete step your supervisor can take to help prevent future incidents like this, then you might want to share that. But if there were no business consequences and there’s nothing your supervisor can do in the future, you don’t need to disclose this to anyone at work. Disclosing to a therapist, doctor, or someone outside of work who supports you would likely be more effective.

  84. Immeuble*

    I’m on PTO sick leave from my job at the moment on medical advice (my illness isn’t so severe I can’t work but my office is high-stress with zero boundaries/accommodations) and did one long handover call with my boss that I deemed sufficient. Since I’ve been absent he’s called me on average every other day with queries, none of which are actually urgent but he deems them to be (‘Cersei can’t find the spare key to the studio, do you know where it is’, ‘Alexei has something urgent you need to approve today’ [and when I call Alexei directly the contract isn’t urgent at all] etc. After the first few days I powered down my work cell, and then the calls moved to my personal cell, followed by texts if I don’t pick up. My boss is sorta the grandboss and doesn’t really answer to anyone but to me his behaviour is way out of line – way out of line (I’m not based in the US so our labor laws here are much more supportive of staff and work/life balance). I’m actually very anxious about going back to the office because of the deluge of work I know is pooling for me while I’m away. With a mortgage I do unfortunately have to go back – is there a constructive way to raise this with my boss so I don’t chew him out completely? I am beyond mad about this and frankly appalled at the relentless contact during a very upsetting health absence for me that has been certified by a physician. I know it might not seem a lot but it’s preventing me from completely switching off from work to focus on my health.

    1. Colette*

      Do you have HR? I’d talk with them about the contacts; that may be a legal issue depending on the laws where you are.

      1. Immeuble*

        No HR – it’s a pretty small company so there is nowhere to go with this but the boss himself.

        1. Colette*

          That’s frustrating. How would he react if you just stopped answering, or answered slowly (i.e. 2 days later)? What about if you said “you’re contacting me a lot, and I really need to disconnect from work so that I can recover and come back”?

          Have you looked into the laws where you are?

    2. ferrina*

      Yeah, that’s not okay. I would either “be so sick I couldn’t check email”, then if that doesn’t work “take a trip to somewhere with spotty internet and cell service”. Both times wait a week before responding to your boss, then say “oh I’m so sorry! Due to circumstances beyond my control (reference being sick or traveling), I couldnt’ get back to you! I hope you were able to get this sorted out!”

      With unreasonable people, I’m a fan of blaming “situations out of my control”. Bonus points if your “trip” is “recommended by your doctor who said you need a change of scene”.

      Oh, and update that resume.

  85. FD*

    What are some abbreviations you see commonly used that *aren’t* industry specific? That thread talking about how certain tests can presume that certain things are common/universal knowledge that actually really aren’t got me thinking about the abbreviations I use and see other people use at work a lot.

    Some ones I usually see:
    – w/f = waiting for
    – cb = call back
    – re: = regarding (except at the beginning of an email subject line)
    – f/u = follow up
    – WRT = with regard to
    – mtg = meeting

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Does your workplace really use f/u regularly?!

      What does re: mean at the beginning of an email subject line? That’s the only time I’ve ever seen it and I totally thought it meant “regarding” in that context too!
      I would be able to guess what mtg meant, but I would have no context for any of the rest of them. I think all the acronyms I use are field-specific, and honestly even then I don’t know what they mean sometimes.

      1. FD*

        We sure do! But always f/u–the slash is important in this context as it makes it clear it’s for follow up and not…the other option.

        That’s really interesting!

        I always thought it meant ‘reply’ at the beginning of a subject line, but maybe it means ‘regarding’ there too?

          1. FD*

            Oh interesting! I always thought it was just coincidence that it was the same usage. It’s funny that it only appends that onto replies and not to initial messages.

        1. TimeTravlR*

          Yes, in Outlook it automatically add re: when you reply but “re:” does mean regarding or with regard to, with reference to.

          1. Person from the Resume*

            I think it originally meant Regarding and it comes from formal business letters as they used to be taught. “RE” didn’t come from reply.

            RE: Stands for regarding to/or Referring to when used in a business letter (equivalent to Subject line in emails). Was often used in business letters before emails were popular, hence the confusion. Used as a subject first line of the letter and not in the main text.

      3. Nessun*

        We have a standard spreadsheet that uses f/u regularly. And yeah, every time I see it I think “Oh noooo that is not great”…but it’s part of the SOP for that process!

    2. Decidedly Me*

      Interestingly, I don’t see most of those at my work. f/u and re: are the only ones that I share in common with your list. We have a lot more than we use, but those are specific to our tools, industry, and company.

      1. FD*

        That’s super interesting! I’ve picked them up as I go across several different jobs. I wonder if some of are regional?

    3. Lunch Ghost*

      I’ve seen EOM, which confused me at first because I thought of “end of month” (like EOD, “end of day”) but that didn’t make sense in the context of “I’ll be in late today, probably by 10, EOM”. Turns out it means “end of message” (i.e. “don’t bother opening the email because the whole message is in the subject line”).

      1. TimeTravlR*

        I use EOM when I just want to give my boss a quick heads up. I may also put NRN either in the subject or text of the email (no response necessary) when it’s just a head up situation.

      2. FD*

        Ooh, good point! Yes, I use EOD all the time for end of day.

        See, the only person I’ve ever met who uses EOM in that way is my dad, who works for a Fortune 500 company, so I only use it with him as I haven’t seen it commonly used anywhere else. I have also heard of NRN but never seen it ‘in the wild’.

        1. JanetM*

          I used to use EOM a lot more than I do now, because I rarely am able to put everything in the subject. I’ve never seen NRN before, but I like it.

          General:
          PM = Project Manager
          SO = Service Owner
          FYI = For Your Information
          FW = Forward
          SMTP = Simple Mail Transfer Protocol
          AAM = Ask A Manager :-)
          cert = certification
          DR = Disaster Recovery (ideally planning and testing, not doing!)
          COB = Close of Business
          WOW = Way of Working
          DA = Disciplined Agile
          RFI = Request for Information (to go along with RFQ and RFP mentioned below)

          In my personal note taking:
          w-with-a-bar-over-it = with
          w/o = without
          e-with-a-bar-over-it = each
          mbox = mailbox
          x = (lower case) prefix trans, as in xcript, xport, xaction — never used in anything referring to Trans people
          f/u = follow up (but only in my notes, never in anything someone else will see!)

          In online chat [Google Hangouts / Discord], not text/SMS chat, which I avoid because tiny keyboard and clunky fingers
          IIRC = If I recall correctly
          IMO = In my opinion (I don’t use IMHO = in my humble opinion, because I think it sounds snarky)
          YMMV = Your mileage may vary
          IYDMYA = If you don’t mind my asking (from a specific Usenet newsgroup where being overly nosy was discouraged)
          WTF, WTAF, WTCF = What the f***, What the Actual f***, What the Complex f***

          1. JanetM*

            Also in my own note-taking, when doing phone banking:

            LMTC = Left message to call (back)
            n/a = No Answer (or Not Applicable — context matters)
            dx = Disconnected

      3. Coenobita*

        The first time I got a message with “EOM” in the subject I had to gooogle it! I was so confused.

        We use “w/r/t” and “re:” a lot (mostly interchangeably).

        I work in an advocacy space where there is a lot of conversation right now about the term “BIPOC” (for Black, Indigenous, and People of Color) – I’m not super keen on it myself, not least because I always read it as “Bisexual People of Color” – but its rise to prominence has definitely meant fewer instances of “wait, does that ‘POC’ mean point of contact or person of color??”

    4. Amber Rose*

      I don’t think it’s industry specific, but sales specific:

      PO: Purchase Order
      RFQ: Request for Quote
      RMA: Return Material Authorization

      I fee like too many people don’t know what an RMA is. But I even need one to return something to Amazon.

      1. FD*

        I’ve seen PO but never the others. I’ve seen RFP for “request for proposal”, though.

    5. TechWorker*

      Haha I use some of yours but if I saw ‘f/u’ I would 100% read it as ‘f*** you’.

      We also have (though mostly within my wider team, I wouldn’t use them with people further away):
      Afaik- as far as I know
      Aiui – as I understand it
      Afaict – as far as I can tell (often used with ‘from x source’)

      Basically all quick ways of hedging…

    6. Person from the Resume*

      BLUF – Bottom Line; Up Front (note it has to be at the top of the message to be “UP FRONT”) is the equivalent to the internet’s TL;DR (to long; didn’t read), but it was around in the military long before I ever saw TL; DR.

      Military also used V/r as a sign off to mean Very Respectfully in place of the “thanks” right before the signature block.

    7. acmx*

      I guess we might use re and f/u but none of the others. Maybe other less technical departments (marketing, accounting) at my company might use them? My industry uses a lot of abbreviations, acronyms and codes so maybe we don’t shorten other phrases.

    9. No Tribble At All*

      KPI: key performance indicator
      COB/EOD: close of business / end of day
      OBE: overcome by events (aka obsolete)
      NLT/NET: Not Earlier Than / Not Later Than

      I would nooooot at all interpret “f/u” as followup!

      1. hot priest*

        Despite the fact that my mind is always in the gutter, I just now realized that all the time I block off in my calendar with the title of “F/U Brenda” and “F/U Bob” are likely wildly inappropriate to people I work with who are not me. Baha.

    10. Tabby Baltimore*

      WRT = With Respect To
      FYSA = For Your Situational Awareness
      WIP = Work In Progress
      FORAC = For Action

  86. Resume Polisher*

    If I’ve done work for clients whose companies are household names, can I use them on my resume?
    How about the cover letter?

    1. Resume Polisher*

      Oh, and I assume I can’t use writing that is the client’s property as a writing sample. Is this correct?

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        No, that’s not necessarily correct. You should ask for permission first, but I’ve used work-for-hire writing as a writing sample.

    2. PollyQ*

      I’m not sure what you mean by “use them on your resume” or in your cover letter. It’s not any kind of TM violation to simply say that you worked for Apple or Walmart or Disney and list your accomplishments in your roles, unless you signed an NDA.

      I’m less certain what the deal would be for a writing sample. If it’s something that was meant to be confidential within the org, I wouldn’t, but if you, say, wrote ad copy or something that’s already been shared with the public, I don’t believe there’d be anything wrong with using it.

    3. LuckySophia*

      Whatever Supplier Agreement you signed with those companies will probably spell out whether you need their permission (or written permission) to disclose that you worked for them. Many clients I’ve worked for have a confidentiality clause that I need their written permission before I can even disclose that I am doing work for them.

      In terms of “writing that is the client’s property”…if that writing is already in a published ad, or on the company’s public website available for anyone to read or download…then I think it’s fair game to show it in your portfolio.

  87. Valamaldoran*

    I’m looking at moving to being an independent contractor/freelancing, from having always been an employee. I know I’ll have to file quarterly taxes, but I’m not sure if I need a state or federal business license to freelance.

    I’m located in western Pennsylvania, in Butler county. Any local/localish readers have experience making this switch? Words of wisdom to impart?

    Thanks for reading!

    1. LuckySophia*

      I don’t live in PA, but I did make the “employee to freelancer” jump many years ago. Honestly, your best resources starting out are going to be a good accountant and a good lawyer, to make sure you don’t omit any legally-required steps, licenses or taxes. And make sure you never mix/mingle personal and business dollars or expenses. Get a business checking account and a business credit card and don’t use them for anything that’s not for the business.

      If you go to the web site for the city of Butler PA (it’s cityofbutler” dot org, not dot com) there’s a tab for “Business” with a drop-down menu for “Starting a business”. That page has a link to info put out by the state of PA…it’s pretty basic stuff but should get you started.

      When I started my own business it was organized as a sole proprietorship, I had to pick a business name, open a business checking account, get a federal tax ID number (FEI), set up a basic project numbering-and-tracking log, a basic bookkeeping system which my accountant would then take the raw numbers and do a monthly P&L statement, and keep me updated on what taxes I had to file. And I had to set up a ton of filing systems to keep track of stuff like, was I invoicing clients in a timely way, and were they paying promptly? Less than 2 years later I incorporated as a subchapter-s, (my lawyer handled this paperwork for me) which meant getting a whole new FEI, new stationery with”Inc.” in the company name, etc.; I think I had to go to the bank with my incorporation papers so they would adjust the checking account info, etc. And for all of my clients that had me in their vendor databases, I had to make sure they knew of my change of FEI number and “Inc.” status.

      At the time, I wished I’d just started out as a sub-S, instead of doing it twice. The main thing is you have to find out the requirements in your city, county & State regarding taxes and business licenses. If you are thinking of becoming an LLC, or a Sub-S, check out your state’s annual fees for those. Where I am the annual fee for a Sub S is actually quite a bit less than the fee for an LLC, even though I think an LLC is easier/cheaper to set up initially than a sub-s.

      Wishing you the best in your new venture and many happy clients in your future!

  88. PeachCube*

    I’m in the process of changing careers from healthcare/medical insurance credentialing to data management outside of healthcare. Would it be wrong for me to change the job titles on my resume to better explain my roles in the past 7 years?

    1. SomebodyElse*

      I wouldn’t necessarily bother unless they are something truly niche and can’t be understood with the context of your achievements in the roles. I only half look at job titles, because there is so much variation of duties with the same job title. I mostly just look at the achievements.

    2. Resume Polisher*

      It’s a bad idea to do this because the background check will probably verify your previous employment. If there’s a mismatch, it would look a lot like lying. Advice I’ve seen here before is to include a description immediately under the title.

    3. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I would never totally change my title, but I think it would be okay to either add a clarifying job title in parentheses or cut a particularly long job title.

      Senior Vice Provost for the Success of Adult Learners, Nontraditional Students, and Continuing Education ->
      Vice Provost for Continuing Education

      Wizard of Light Bulb Moments (Senior Marketing Manager)

  89. Ice scream*

    Why do people like external monitors? Am I making a mistake if I don’t get one for my next job and just get a laptop stand?

    I’ve got one right now and it makes my life a misery – takes up too much space, can’t unplug my laptop and move around as I’ve had to set it to bypass the internal camera and use the webcam on the monitor, and if I do unplug it it messes up the display as there isn’t a screen resolution that works well for both. I just don’t get why people like them unless you really care about screen size?

    Would I be making a huge mistake if I ask my next job for just a laptop stand and external keyboard and do not get an external monitor, what am I missing?!

    1. FD*

      A really big monitor can let you split the screen while still keeping two good-sized windows. Very useful if you have a job that involves a lot of cross-referencing. For me, I also can’t get my laptop screen high enough to be at a comfortable height with my neck. But I don’t think you’re a bad person or missing out if you prefer a laptop stand!

    2. PeachCube*

      I like using external monitors because I use a lot of programs simultaneously side by side. It’s much better to have a wide screen monitor for my industry. I also like to “extend” my display settings. So I’ll have my laptop (on a laptop stand) with outlook open, while I have 2 programs open on the external monitor.

      If you don’t need an external monitor, by all means ask for just a stand, keyboard, and monitor. Do what works best for you!

      2. The Rural Juror*

        We have one person in our office who uses that setup because they’re the only person that takes their laptop home with them (we’re in office, not working from home). We all enjoy having double monitors!

    3. Colette*

      External monitors are usually bigger; you can also have multiple monitors (whether one is the laptop screen or not) which makes life a lot easier. In particular, when I’m on a video call I can have Teams/Zoom up on my laptop screen, and my work (stuff I’m sharing or stuff I’m referring to) up on my monitor.

      1. Ice scream*

        I have no idea how I would fit a monitor and open laptop on my desk and not go stark screaming mad!

    4. SomebodyElse*

      Well, I’ve been contemplating a third monitor :) If that tells you anything. I think it comes down to how many things you are working on at any given time. I can barely function on a laptop monitor alone at this point. I will say that 1 external monitor doesn’t add much to the party, but when you start getting into 2 or 3 it does make a difference.

      Are you extending your desktop so that you can access both your laptop and the external or are you just duplicating? Even with 1 monitor and my laptop screen I can park my email open on the laptop screen and work off of the main monitor. I routinely have 2 external monitors that I work from simultanously and park Teams or Email on the small laptop screen (#3) in my case.

      What harm is there in getting the external monitor in case you do want to use it?

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        I had three 24-27″ monitors on my personal computer for quite a while and it was amazing. (That was when I got a trackball — too much real estate to mouse across, and not enough room on my desk to do it in less than like four chunks :P )

      2. Ice scream*

        “ What harm is there in getting the external monitor in case you do want to use it?”

        Because then I’ll have to store it and I don’t have anywhere to put it?

        Also I am going to work in government and don’t want to request items I won’t use when the public is paying.

      3. Anonymous technical writer*

        I use two monitors and the laptop itself as a third screen. Markups on the left, document being created on the right, and outlook on the third.

    5. North Wind*

      Do what works for you!

      I’ve been working on a laptop screen for years and years. At my last job that I went into a physical location, I worked with data and the time a bit of coding so lots of staring at numbers and text. I had a laptop that hooked into a monitor at work. For some reason, the monitor gave me terrible headaches. They offered to tinker with the refresh rate or let me try other ones, but I found I was comfortable working from my laptop screen. So I asked for and got a laptop stand.

      I have a friend who’s a software developer and won’t work without two humongous monitors. She has two at home, and when she broke an ankle and had to be in an inpatient rehab facility, she would actually set up those two huge monitors there at the facility to work from!

      Everyone has their own way that feels reasonable/comfortable for them.

    6. Person from the Resume*

      I use one to extend my laptop screen to a second larger monitor. It’s great.

      I can look at two different applications at once. Especially for when I am in a meeting and I’m running teams on one screen and something else on the other one.

    7. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      some of us don’t have good enough eyeballs to be able to work off a laptop monitor :)

      1. SomebodyElse*

        My current work laptop is the ‘travel’ version. It pushed me over the edge into reading glasses!

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          I can read WITH my glasses if the screen is at least 3 feet back, and WITHOUT my glasses if it’s within 18 inches. In between, I’m just hosed either way. So a laptop screen has to be literally in my lap or a big monitor has to be all the way back on my desk – otherwise I have to zoom the text to the point of being practically unusable.

      2. Fran Fine*

        Right. My laptop screen is entirely too small to not have an external monitor for the work I do.

    8. Ice scream*

      Today I learned I’m basically the only person who loathes the idea of multiple screens and would rather save some desk space for a notebook and post-it’s…

      1. SomebodyElse*

        Nah… you’re just the only actively posting here at this time :)

        Seriously, do whatever works for you. It won’t be any more weird than somebody else’s preference.

      2. sagc*

        You can get monitor mounts, etc; I’ve never felt like I had to choose between external monitors and desk space, either because I’ve had a big desk, or I’ve had them off the surface of the desk entirely.

        1. Ice scream*

          I can’t use a monitor arm as I rent and can’t / don’t want to install one on the crumbling wall. No risers are high enough.

          Thanks all!

          1. sagc*

            There are monitor arms that clamp to the edge of your desk, if you want to try that; they also have the advantage of letting you move the monitor around pretty easily, so you can have it above/beside your laptop as you prefer.

            1. ronda*

              these kind were also really great for meeting in my office and sitting across the desk from each other. you could mirror the screen and swivel one of the monitors to face the other person.

          2. It happens*

            Clamp mounts for the win! I have the clamp mount on the corner of my desk (with a little extra piece of wood for a tight fit) and it frees up all the real estate on my desk.

    9. TWW*

      Above there’s a post from a boss annoyed at an employee who chose to have only has one monitor.

      Personally I need at least two large monitors and a full-size keyboard, which is one of the reasons I can’t WFH in my small apartment.

      In addition to my desktop computer, I also have a laptop for when I need to wander around. But that’s a completely separate computer (with access to the same hard drives) so I don’t have to bother with plugging/unplugging anything.

    10. Ismis*

      I don’t have a laptop stand, external keyboard, or mouse. I’ve just worked off the laptop for over 5 years and it’s been fine for the most part. It can be a bit annoying if I’m trying to do a comparison of documents, for example, so it really depends on what you need to do. If your next job is going to be similar to the current one, why not try work using just the laptop for a few days (using a box or something instead of a stand) and see how you go?

    11. allathian*

      My work involves a lot of research online and comparing documents, so two monitors are a must. At home I use the laptop monitor for email and Skype calls, because I don’t have a spare webcam, and work on my 34 in 4K monitor. I can easily keep two A4-sheets on my screen with space for comments for both, at 100% zoom.

      At the office I have two 24 in monitors side by side.

      Before the pandemic, I didn’t WFH much, because I didn’t have a decent setup for it, I had to work on our dining room table with just the laptop. Switching between so many windows was a chore I’m happy to avoid.

  90. NoraAnonymous*

    I have a male coworker who is strongly suspected of having untreated borderline personality disorder, who takes offense to most statements and any form of disagreement with him, ruminates, becomes angry, and then sends hostile emails to department heads, his own boss, and even his own employees; constantly expresses intensely strong negative emotions about mundane events, to the point where he can’t interact with people or go into other departments because of how disgusted and sick he feels about them; creates new chaotic drama each month; changes his mind on procedures and decisions multiple times per day; either loves you (when you agree with him) or hates you (the minute you disagree with him and don’t come around to his way of thinking after he browbeats you); gaslights people after he says or does things to them; and crosses every boundary possible, such as trying to negotiate money for his individual coworkers (not his employees, but his coworkers) or trying to assign his equal coworkers his interns and work assignments. The other day, I mentioned we couldn’t do something because of a pretty standard policy, and he blew at me up with cuss words, slamming furniture, screaming about how “effing stupid that is,” then storming out of the office before coming back in and acting like nothing had ever happened, then saying I was over-reacting to his aggression. He blocked the door so I couldn’t leave, and, once I managed to get out, he chased me into the parking lot to tell me how I should feel about what had happened. I immediately went to our boss, who isn’t sure if this guy needs fired or not. It’s been radio silence for two days on next steps. (I’m not at work. Without giving away too specific of details, I’m not missing any work, either.)

    My heart still pounds when I think about what happened. I thought he was going to hit me. And I’m angry that there is uncertainty about next steps and that I’m now job searching because I can’t/won’t stay and work with this guy. Not after that.

    1. Colette*

      Get out. You don’t have a coworker problem; you have a boss problem, and did long before he locked you in a room and then chased you out to the parking lot.

    2. The Rural Juror*

      He absolutely needs to be fired. You felt unsafe, he was harassing you, and then he chased you when you tried to remove yourself from the situation. I’m so sorry this happened, it sounds like it was awful. Do you feel like you can say you won’t feel safe if he’s still there? Is HR involved? It seems like they need to be!

    3. Sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*

      This should fall under a No Harassment/No violence at work policy and if there’s isn’t one, push to get one created.

      There is NO reason to put up with cuss words, tossed furniture and then being told how you should feel. If you didn’t feel safe, then something needs to happen.

      If your HR/employer would prefer to put this guy thru a system of write-ups and a PIP to cover their butts legally, fine. But this needs to be acknowledged and this guy told this is Not Acceptable and that it’s expected that this Will Not Happen Again.

    4. Person from the Resume*

      Go to HR or your boss’s boss.

      You legitimately feel unsafe at work and your coworker needs to be fired ASAP. There’s no question about that so since your boss is refusing to manage sensibly you need to go over his head.

    5. Unkempt Flatware*

      Honestly, based on a past violent trauma, if I were barricaded in a room and then chased out of the building, I might have called the police and/or caused a huge scene.

    6. Lizy*

      Go to HR, and tell your boss you went to HR.

      Does your boss generally support you? If so, have a chat with them about how you can NOT work with Grade-A Asshat again. Don’t ask for help – state it as any other business need. “It’s been a couple of days, and I wanted to follow up with what happened with Grade A Asshat. Given the situation, I’m unable to work with him. How can we ensure I’m not put in that situation again?” Make it a dialog – YOU have power, too! You are your best advocate and know what you’d be ok with vs. not ok with.

      1. Reba*

        Love this answer. Your boss “isn’t sure”????? Well, let them know where things stand with you.

        Sorry that happened, NoraAnonymous.

    7. WellRed*

      He…trapped you in his office????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And then chased you???!!!!! Why haven’t you filed a formal complaint with HR, a complaint with the PD and negotiated paid time off until he’s fired and to recover? Not trying to blame you just want you to recognize the seriousness of this! If you do nothing else hire an employment lawyer to negotiate a generous severance.

    8. curiousLemur*

      “He blocked the door so I couldn’t leave, and, once I managed to get out, he chased me into the parking lot to tell me how I should feel about what had happened.” “I thought he was going to hit me.”

      If the boss fully understands the above, then yeah, a big part of the problem is the boss. If there’s any chance the boss didn’t quite understand this, then it might be worth discussing this again. Sorry you are dealing with this.

  91. Liesl is my dachshund*

    Help me write my resume posting on a job board.

    A statewide non-profit center offers a $35/60-day resume posting opportunity. I can personalize my resume title. I don’t want to be too fantastical but I don’t want to be boring. We can also write a professional summary. I’m reading others to see how they managed it.

    I don’t know if it will work; they say the job board and resume center receive 600k views/year but they don’t discern between posted jobs and posted resumes, unique views vs all views. But $35 is worth the nominal time it takes to put this together.

    My background: 20 years of non-profit. Worked in all roles from ED, DD, volunteer management, communications/social media, programs, client services, evaluation/research. I could be considered a ‘jill of all trades’ but I prefer development and fundraising (but not grants or donor engagement).

    My goal job is Development Coordinator/Manager. My skills are data, data management, and analysis, identifying trends, creating reports, grant prospect research, and grant database management, program/project management. I’m experienced in research and evaluation and program monitoring. My special skills are survey planning, design, and analysis.

    1. MissBliss*

      Fellow development professional here. Can I ask why you generally want to put yourself out there, versus applying for specific job opportunities? Is it something about the market?

  92. Brienne the Blue*

    I have a colleague, a step above me on the org chart but not my direct supervisor, who perpetually refers to me and addresses me by my full name. She says it is to differentiate me from another person in our organization with the same first name, but this person is rarely in our meetings and definitely not on most email correspondence. I can see doing it if there are two people in the room with the same first name, but she doesn’t usually do this to the two people on our team who DO share a first name. They are usually “Jane J.” and “Jane S.” although sometimes she will call one of them “Smith”. I am the only one who is always referred to by my full name.

    When I quizzed her on this she said that in addition to keeping it straight in her head which “Brienne” she is referring to in the moment, she also likes the iambic ring of my name. Great, glad she enjoys it, but I hate my full name. I go by the shortened version of my first name most of the time, and definitely other colleagues call me “Bree” instead of “Brienne”. (The other Brienne in the company has a nickname as well, think “BT” or similar, and that’s how most people tend to refer to her.) Hearing my full name makes me feel like I’m in trouble. I have told her that it makes me uncomfortable and yet it persists. In fact, I think it’s gotten worse since I brought it up to her. It’s too minor an annoyance to bump up the ladder or take to HR, I think. It’s not like she’s disrespecting my pronouns or calling me a derogatory nickname.

    My question is, is it too much of a troll move to start referring to this person by her full name whenever she calls me by MY full name?

    1. Workerbee*

      Try it! Colleague needs to learn another way to remember who she’s talking to and can go iambic herself something else.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      First, the next time she does it in front of witnesses (i.e., in a meeting), I would say “Cersei, I’ve told you I don’t like being called Brienne Blue, and yet you keep doing it. I’ve asked you to call me Bree. Is there a particular reason you can’t call me by the name I choose to use?” She’ll say oh, I just like this, blah blah blah, and then you say “I understand, but this is not about your preference, this is about my name. I need you to call me Bree from now on.”

      And if that doesn’t work, then you can do whatever petty thing makes you happy. But don’t stop with her full name. Give her a nickname she’s bound to dislike.

    3. SomebodyElse*

      Don’t play games, do the same thing that people who hate the shortened versions of their name.

      First time:
      Hey Brienne, can I get the TPS report?
      It’s Bree please, sure let me get that for you.

      Second time:
      Brienne, I want to schedule a meeting about the paper clip sorting project.
      Coldly: I’ve asked you in the past to call me Bree. Not as coldly: Tuesday works for that meeting

      If there’s a third time – and most often there’s not.
      Brienne, I really liked that tool you set up to track the paper usage
      Very Coldly: Betty, I’ve asked you multiple time to call me Bree, this is the last time I’ll respond to Brienne. Less Coldly: And thank you for the comment about the paper usage tool, I’m working on one for pencils next.

      After #3, just don’t respond.

    4. TWW*

      Is there any reason to believe she would dislike being addressed by her full name?

      If someone started calling me by my first and last name, I would think it was an amusing affectation, and maybe even be a little flattered. It would make me feel like a celebrity.

      1. Unkempt Flatware*

        Ha! She could. I am called “The [Surname]” by one person on the team and it makes me laugh. If anyone is a fan of Workaholics, it reminds me of when Anders becomes “The Ders” and his friends know it’s time to reign him in.

    5. WellRed*

      I know it seems minor in the grand scheme but it’s your name. I’m reminded slightly of the letters where coworkers insist on calling the employee with the foreign (ahem, none white) name by something “easier.” Eff that.

  93. bookends*

    I hope I’m not too late for this! Does anyone have any advice on how to apply for an internal position for *the job you’re currently doing*? I was hired as a State employee in a two-year project position. I applied last November and have been working since February. Permanent positions have now become available, and I have to submit a full resume and letter of qualifications (in lieu of a cover letter, we write a paragraph about our experience/qualifications for each requirement in the job posting).

    How much do I talk about prior qualifications vs. what I’ve done in the job so far? Do I include specific numbers of what I’ve accomplished in the job thus far, which will have changed by the time I do an interview and which my employer has the up to date version of (we track everything because state government)? I’ve never had to do this before and it’s really throwing me for a loop.

    1. SomebodyElse*

      Treat it like you would any external position that you are applying for. (With the exception you can use more internal language than you normally would).

      It’s best to approach it like they don’t know who you are and you need to tell them all of the great things about your.

      How much do I talk about prior qualifications vs. what I’ve done in the job so far?
      —The key is relevancy, think about what you told them about prior qualifications to get the job in the first place and add the new stuff that you’ve done since being there.

      Do I include specific numbers of what I’ve accomplished in the job thus far, which will have changed by the time I do an interview and which my employer has the up to date version of (we track everything because state government)?
      —Yes, they can look up your numbers at any time, but you want to document where you are at the time of applying.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        Maybe give the last date for the numbers you’re presenting, something like, “as of 5/28/2021 my numbers were ….”

  94. Brane Sturgeon*

    Advice please! Any tips or techniques for generating and giving feedback on my team members? They read, discuss and evaluate grant proposals, and write reports to assess their feasibility. My job is to sit in on those discussions, and guide their work. Thanks in advance!

    1. TimeTravlR*

      I hope this is helpful. I did a few temporary turns at evaluating grant proposals. The best thing you can do is allow the evaluators to discuss, mostly because they are the ones who did the review so they need to be able to defend it. For example let’s say everyone rated the proposal really high in one area except John who rated it average. I would first say to anyone but john, “What about the proposal leads you to believe they are strong in this area?” Then let them discuss. Then specifically ask John (if he has not weighed in), “John, you rated them much lower. What are your thoughts?”
      We had great discussions this way!

  95. pockets for snacks*

    Any particular unions you would recommend reaching out to for help/support organizing museum staff, if NPEU isn’t available?

    1. norma rae*

      Are there any other unionized museums in your state? I’ve seen a ton of different unions represent museum staff (AFSCME, USW, IAM, maybe SEIU, etc.) in different places, so I’d suggest seeking that out. You may be able to contact your area’s labor council or state AFL-CIO if you’re unsure.

      I’d also suggest reaching out to other unionized museum workers who might have advice, if you haven’t already! A lot of them have their own social media. In Milwaukee where I live, the art museum workers just organized with IAM (they’re IAM at MAM on social media) and the public museum workers have been in AFSCME Local 526 for a long time.

    2. pancakes*

      From an artnet article earlier this month about workers at the Whitney and the Hispanic Society of America unionizing:

      “Workers at both museums are looking to join the Technical, Office, and Professional Union, Local 2110, part of the United Automobile Workers (UAW) union, which has represented staff at New York’s Museum of Modern Art and the New-York Historical Society since the 1970s and the Bronx Museum of the Arts since 2005.”

    3. JanetM*

      Communications Workers of America is also pretty broadly open to different trades and professions. It’s where my union, United Campus Workers [Tennessee], is affiliated.

  96. Walkout*

    I’m actually ready just to put in my notice, with nothing. I guess I can’t assume I will get another job. It’s a bad market. But I also am barely able to get out of bed at this point to log in to zoom calls.

    The situation: (TL:DR) Last year I took a paycut and a lower position to work with a former colleague (who I adore) who was managing a small team. He was a dream of a manager, very supportive, and we were going to work on my level and compensation as the team grew. Plus, there was a healthy bonus and raise to look forward to.

    Within two months, the company hired in a human nightmare (I think that is his title) who got rid of my awesome manager, and then the other team members left because the new manager is an odious human being who I kid you not physically resembles Nosferatu.

    I have tried to make things work in this situation, but my new manager has been insulting to me in every single interaction (it has been months now). He interrupts me, criticizes everything I do, talks over me and rants at me, barely gave me a raise and also gave me a small fraction of the bonus that was hyped in my offer (it’s up to the discretion of the manager) and he makes non-veiled threats about my job, like that he is “hiring my replacement”. It’s evident he wants to get rid of me. He is hostile to me.

    I’ve been having panic attacks for months, waking up with chest pains, and I get a raging headache every time I meet with him. I have to take a xanax before every meeting with him. And OMG my friends and family want me to never talk about him again.

    Have any of you ever left a job with nothing lined up? And please, I have enough mansplaining and criticizing me in my life from my boss…I’m just looking to hear from people who have left a job because of a distressing situation, and how they ultimately managed or maybe even succeeded from the ashes of despair.

    1. Amber Rose*

      I left my last job like that. My boss died in a plane crash, and his daughter took over, and everything went straight into the sewer. Turns out you can’t grieve and learn how to run a company very well. I became so stressed about everything that I started waking up and driving to work at midnight just to double check that I hadn’t messed something up. Eventually my boss blew up at me for something, we fought, she demoted me, and then I quit. Well, first I had hysterics on the phone with my husband who told me to just quit already, and then I quit. I got very drunk that night and called in sick for half of my remaining two weeks.

      It was liberating to not care anymore, honestly.

      Anyways, I did find another job through connections fairly quickly. It took a couple weeks but we managed to struggle through. The new job paid only a dollar an hour less, but it was 10000% less stressful and toxic, and I got enough raises fast enough that I ended up making a lot more.

    2. Workerbee*

      Are you in touch with your former manager and colleagues? What about others in your industry? Even just reaching out and talking may help clear a path to your next steps.

      I am sorry you got saddled with a fractured piece of humanity.

    3. Manders*

      I left a job that was going down the tubes at the same time I was going through a huge personal crisis back in 2017. In my case, I needed to have something else lined up out of necessity. I did also get laid off in 2020 in a weird/difficult way so I also have experience with job searching when I felt like an unemployed failure.

      My advice:
      1) Make sure you have a “screw you” fund so you can walk away with a safety net. Job searches are taking an extra long time right now.
      2) Figure out a way to keep a schedule. Something that took me by surprise when I was unemployed is how easily I turn into a blob when I lack structure. The hours fly by and I get nothing done. I was out of work in the height of the pandemic, which meant I couldn’t really leave the house to keep a schedule–if you can, make a point of going to a cafe, gym, or just out for a walk in the morning.
      3) Have a plan for health insurance, and make sure whatever your stopgap is includes therapy coverage. One of my biggest regrets from that period is that I saved money by going on a catastrophic plan that covered basically nothing.

    4. Walkout*

      Thank you all for sharing your experiences, and for the thoughtful + practical advice. I agree that it is worthwhile establishing the “screw you” fund and getting my stuff in order before I bail, despite my heart racing. I also feel like I need to establish a plan for an end date whether I have another job or not (I’m interviewing like crazy, with no offers yet). I look forward so much to the day when I walk away and this whole sour experience is part of my past.

      Seriously, thank you.

      1. Wisteria*

        I definitely get what you are going through, and I think the planned exit is much better than the sudden walk out. Find ways to disengage from and depersonalize the job. Start regarding him as “Oh look, Nosferatu is doing his thing again” rather than “Nosferatu just spent an hour telling me I’m lousy.” Try to approach your day from, “I wonder what new and engaging hell Nosferatu will come up with” rather than, “Will I make it through another day at this hell.” Remind yourself that you are only there so you can have an income while you look for something else. It might sound backwards, but also remind yourself that you don’t have to be happy and it’s ok to be miserable. Every day that you don’t rage quit is a successful day. And hire either a therapist or a coach to listen to your Nosferatu stories. They might other helpful coping suggestions as well. Your friends and family are definitely getting second hand burn out, and people you pay can’t tell you to stop talking about it (although they might suggest that the way you talk about it not helpful).

        1. Walkout*

          I love the idea of reframing it to be more observational rather than personal or subjective. And….he would actually be an interesting character to write about, if nothing else.

          A therapist is in order. I actually might have lost a friend over my constant ruminating about Nosferatu. Rage quitting is sooo accurate, but it also doesn’t sound terribly mature when I think about it.

      2. WellRed*

        If you are having panic attacks and waking up with chest pain I have to say you may be past the point of having time to plan and establish a screw you fund. I assume no recourse is available through the company?

        1. Walkout*

          Sadly, I’ve talked to HR about him, but she seemed largely uninterested in my concerns.

          I will add that the small company I’m at had between 30% – 50% turnover in the past year.

    5. JelloStapler*

      Ugh – that stinks. To try to make you laugh, this is what popped in my head;

      Regards,
      John Smith
      VP of Human Nightmares

    6. Diatryma*

      I quit my horrible job with nothing lined up. My household agreed (and in fact suggested) that my contribution to our finances was now set to ‘previous poorly-paid job that wasn’t horrible’ and every penny I earned at the horrible job beyond that was mine. I put in my notice and fell into a much better situation.

      1. Diatryma*

        Oh, and: the unreasonableness can be a gift. I was passive-aggressively and then openly reprimanded for using the wrong kind of pen on our maintenance sheets. We are required to use red, blue, or black ink, weren’t you paying attention to the presentation she just gave at the meeting (which was largely reciting the policies on the maintenance sheets.) Because I was using a black Pilot G2 provided by our clerk, who hid them and didn’t tell me where. That’s not ink, that’s gel, and she wasn’t going to get in trouble if someone objected.

        That was a gift. If anyone asks about the job and why I left, that’s an easy example that doesn’t involve trauma.

  97. Bluestreak*

    Just got off the phone with the hiring manager for my dream job. They are offering me the job! Only problem is he won’t discuss money and I have to wait until HR sends it to me. And I probably won’t get it until after the long weekend! Argggh! At least I don’t have to wait over the weekend to hear about the decision, so I know I can’t complain much.

    2. WellRed*

      He won’t discuss at all? I hope you at least have discussed the range otherwise that’s a bit weird.

  98. Lizy*

    Raises and COL adjustments… I’ve seen/heard Alison say that COL is typically 2-3%. Do employees typically get raises on top of that? Should raises be annual? Not “should” as in ethically, but “should” as in, should I ask for a raise annually, or just every other year, or…?

    I’ve been at my current job for about a year and a half. I did receive a 3% raise/COL in December. (It was an increase in pay by 3%. I don’t think my company specified if it was COL or raise or what. Just that my pay increased by 3%.) On the one hand, of course I’d love to make more, and I do honestly do a lot, and most of it well. On the other, I personally feel like there are things I could work on and do better, so I’m torn. I don’t know how much of it may be imposter syndrome, and how much of it is really warranted fears that I’m not doing my best. To be clear – I’m not at all at risk of losing my job, thankfully. I’m more concerned about the optics – do I do a good enough job to justify asking for – or receiving – a raise? How does one determine that?

    1. ThatGirl*

      It’s a good question. I’ve never had a raise presented as a Cost of Living adjustment. What I usually hear is “merit increase” – meaning it’s tied to my annual performance review. I did get a raise outside of that once when I moved to a new dept in the same company – it was a lateral move but the salary band was higher. Aside from that raise, I think the most I’ve gotten is around 4%.

      I feel like Alison’s written about this kind of thing, but if you have annual reviews, that’s probably the best time to bring up negotiating a bigger increase — tying it to your accomplishments for the year. An exception would be if you found out you were seriously underpaid.

    2. Alex*

      I think this is pretty company-specific. I get merit raises once per year. They are usually about 3% if you are a top performer (which I am). The only other raises that you can get are for promotions, or if you convince them that they have graded your job incorrectly or your job has changed such that it belongs in another job grade.

      But this is all spelled out specifically for us. Check with your coworkers or even ask your boss about what is typical for your company, if they don’t have any official resources for you.

    3. Girasol*

      Cost of Living is supposed to track national economic inflation. You get more money so that you can afford the same groceries you bought last year that cost more this year. If you’re doing more/better work than you used to do and in some way generating more value for the company, then you should also get a raise, not because groceries (etc.) cost more but because you’re worth more than you used to be. A raise should bring you up to your actual market value as an employee. If you think your value to the company is significantly greater than what you’re paid, either because you’ve improved so much that the company is making more money because of you, or because the market value of an employee like you is more than you get, you can explain why it’s in the company’s interest to give you a raise. Just keep in mind that the discussion isn’t about how a raise would be good for you but about how it would be good for the company.

    4. ATX*

      Totally depends on the company. We get merit increases once per year and depends on performance. If you exceed expectations, you’ll be slotted for a higher increase (4-6%, depending on budget), meets expectations is 3ish%, and partially meets is 1-2%.

      We also give out monetary awards for good work, which are anywhere from 50-1000. I’ve given my staff a $500 award each throughout this year and they get $100-200 awards once or twice a year from other departments that they work with.

      Other than that, there is no raise. People don’t get promoted to senior positions without there being a position open. Analyst doesn’t go to senior analyst, senior analyst doesn’t go to manager. A position has to be created for you or one has to be open (new headcount or someone left) to get that extra moolah and title change.

    5. mreasy*

      If it’s 3% it’s in practice COLA, even if presented as a “raise.” At my old job, where I wasn’t ever allowed to have a “real” raise, for…reasons…everyone received a COLA raise every year (usually 2-3%). At another job which I left with a quickness, that % raise was considered the standard even for high performers, and 5% was the max – at a place that paid shockingly below market. In my current role, a 5% raise is pretty middling, and I would be disappointed with it – have received 15% and 7% the last 2 years. This is just to say – it really, really varies. But if you have a workplace that is trying to pass of 2-3% as a significant merit raise, bear in mind that it’s just the baseline of what you need not to fall behind due to inflation etc!

  99. Rrrrach*

    I have an in-person first stage selection day coming up where I will be meeting prospective future colleagues and reportees in small groups.

    I am fully expecting and confident that all appropriate measures will be taken (windows open, distancing etc) but what should I do about hand shaking? This will be my first work in-person activity in 15 months. I don’t think elbow bumping is going to be a thing. I thought smiling and nodding as people introduce themselves, with the odd informal reflection on how odd it can feel not to shake hands.

    Any other suggestions for conducting myself during the intro’s? Is anyone else back to in-person introduction meetings ?

    1. comityoferrors*

      I think you can just follow their lead, but your thinking sounds good to me. The only other thing I’ve seen is adding a quick raised-hand wave (not waving back and forth) as you’re introduced, along with the smile and nod. I think it’s particularly useful if you’re still masked in your area — it’s a good supplement to a smile when you can only see someone’s eyes.

      If your prospective future colleagues have been in-person for a while, I would try to limit talking about how weird it is for you, but that’s just my personal preference. When I hired my newest employee she made a comment about how weird it was not to shake my hand, and it was an odd, “oh…right, we used to do that” moment for me because I’ve been 50% in-person since Covid started and didn’t shake many hands before that. It didn’t reflect badly on her or anything, but it threw me off for a second.

      Otherwise in-person introductions seem pretty much the same as normal, to me! I think there’s a weirdness to it if you haven’t been in-office for a while, but nothing has truly changed except the distancing.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        I give the Vulcan salute. Other people I’ve met do an elbow-bump. A small bow might also be appropriate. So would lots of hand-sanitizer.

      2. Rrrrach*

        Thank you that’s really helpful. Particularly on not making comments , however gentle, on it being weird – if as you say, others have been in-office for a while (I am not sure on that so agree to avoid).

  100. Daphne (UK)*

    Tips on succeeding in a job in a small organisation where you have to wear many hats/deal with a lot of enquiries and requests at once?

    I work at a rural arts venue where everything is on a shoestring budget and with such a small staff there’s a lot to juggle simultaneously. I’m in a management role but very green, and boss is usually swamped and I hate pestering them with questions. There are some SOPs but COVID/2020 has highlighted how inefficient things are here…but I don’t have the knowledge or experience to implement anything better. I’ve mentally given myself another year to stay in this role (it’s adjacent to the field i originally wanted) but want to make it as worthwhile as possible!

    1. Cooper*

      I had a ton of things to juggle at a previous job, although not in management. I wound up making a list of everything that happened regularly, and what interval it needed to happen in. I made a point of scheduling every one of those points, spreading out the work fairly equally across the days.
      Some things didn’t have specific intervals, like mailing out supplies, but in order to avoid chaos, I opted to do that task every week on Friday; there was no deadline on the supplies other than “eh, get the stuff to the people who need it at Some Point, whatever”, but I gave myself structure.
      Then, because everything that *was* schedulable was scheduled, I had about 70% of every workday free to fill in with whatever else needed doing, and I didn’t need to worry about the regular stuff falling by the wayside.

  101. JustaClarifier*

    I’m going to be entering the job market in October and, at my current position, other companies/organizations are frequently asking me for advice and how I accomplished X, Y, and Z at my current location. I would love to know how to professionally and tactfully hint to the people that are always coming to me for consulting that I’ll be ‘open for business’, but I’m not sure how or if I should, at all. Any thoughts, experiences, or opinions from others here on this? Thanks in advance!

  102. Making all my own choices*

    Oh folks, I had a client call me out for MAKING MY OWN CHOICES.

    I had let him know I’d no longer be supporting his project, but offered to do a handoff meeting with his next developer to walk through some of the more complex parts of what I had developed. I do this for all my clients.

    Six weeks later (he had multiple delays in hiring someone else), while trying to set up the meeting, my client ran into difficulties getting the new developer and I to connect because of the policies/technical limitations of the freelance platform we were working through (Upwork). He and I were both in touch with customer support to figure it out. Frustrated, he tried to get me and the other freelancer to meet in a way that violates one of Upwork’s policies, which could result in my account getting suspended – meaning I could lose access to my current income and other clients. Of course his account and the other freelancer’s could also be impacted.

    I let him know – you need to be careful, there can be serious consequences for the violation. Let’s wait to hear back from Upwork support and get their blessing.

    He proceeds to tell me that I should not consider the contract which spells out this policy a real legal contract, his own lawyers laughed at the idea that any of it was enforceable.

    I replied that my concern wasn’t really legal, it was having my account suspended, which Upwork absolutely can do at any time.

    He then says, I don’t need to understand your reasoning as to why you think anyone can tell you who you can and can’t talk to, it’s just you making a choice, and clearly you making all your own choices is a very high priority for you.

    !!!

    I was so flabbergasted by that comment I never did respond to it. We had some communication later to get through finishing out the contract, but holy head-explode, of course I make my own choices regarding something that could impact my immediate income from sources other than him? WTH.

    (Yes, yes, if you’re familiar with Upwork it’s an ill-advised policy and his frustration with it valid. His response to me was not).

      2. Making all my own choices*

        lol, I wanted to say, “You say that like it’s a bad thing”.

        But I really just wanted to get through ending the contract without prolonging an upside-down world conversation.

    2. Unkempt Flatware*

      Is it just me or is that a strangely stated semantic word map? I can barely find his message in all of it. I think I’d respond with a very flat, “What?”

      What an oddball.

  103. Just @ me next time*

    How do you respond when two different colleagues are both sure they’re right about something, but they’re contradicting each other and you have no way of verifying the facts yourself? Someone who works closer to the technical side of things is saying clients in group A can view document X on the online portal, while someone higher up on the client-facing team is saying “No, I checked with people on [team that calculates and mails the document] and they can’t.”

    The client-facing person is questioning my decision not to incorporate a piece of feedback that one of her direct reports gave me regarding one of my own projects. If group A can view document X, the feedback is irrelevant. If they can’t, there’s some merit to the feedback, but the specific suggestion the direct report made to address it is still not great. (I have one of those jobs where everyone thinks they can do it better than the experts).

    I know I’m going to have to go back to either the technical person or the client-facing person and say “I don’t believe you, prove it.” Based on past interactions with both those colleagues, neither one will appreciate the implication. How do I get to the bottom of this without ruffling any more feathers?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      “According to Fergus, Group A says they can’t access that document. Can you help me confirm, or can we figure out what they’re missing?” No one is accused of anything, you’re just reporting what has been said and asking them to confirm they’re telling the truth, which is not the same thing as proving they didn’t lie.

    2. North Wind*

      Hmm, I’d probably approach the communication as if they were both right, and that it was a problem the three of you needed to troubleshoot.

      I’d try to get on a Zoom call with one or both of them to walk through together via screen-share what the technical person can see when they try to view the document and what the client-facing person can see when they try to view the document. Are they going through different portals? through different types of logins (if logins are necessary)? Does it work in test environment but not production? I’d just treat it like something to diagnose and leave any hint of someone’s wrong and someone’s right out of it.

    3. Cthulhu's Librarian*

      I’ve gotten plenty of solid mileage out of “I would really like to solve your problem, so I need to replicate it. Can you please show me the process you were going through when it happened?” or “It will be much easier for me to figure out a solution if I take some notes on how it went wrong. Do you mind if I have you walk me through your process?”

    4. SomebodyElse*

      This reminds me of something that happened to me once.

      To set the stage: I’m at a remote location kicking off a project and it’s the day before the big kick off. Lots of problems the preceding weeks and it’s down to the wire (Sunday Afternoon) and I’ve been told all my data will be available so that I can do my work so everyone coming in Monday morning can do theirs. So this is a biggggg dealll and high visibility. This is late 90’s early ’00, so no screen sharing

      So here I am on Sunday afternoon all by myself and I log in to the system and there’s no data. I call my on-call support for the tool and explain what I’m seeing (or not seeing). My developer logs in and says “It’s all there, I can see it.” Oh goody, this will be fun. I explain again that I’m logged in and see nothing. She’s now started to get condescending and making comments like “I don’t know what you are doing wrong” “It’s there, I don’t know why you can’t see it” “There’s nothing wrong on this end” I’m starting to freak out a little bit, because I have about 4-5 hours of work ahead of me once I have access to the data, so this is going to become an issue very soon.

      She reluctantly tells me she’ll look into it and call me back… I’m starting to freak out a little bit, because I have about 4-5 hours of work ahead of me once I have access to the data, so this is going to become an issue very soon. When she calls me back she does the hands in the air thing and tells me there are no problems and she doesn’t know what I’m doing wrong that I can’t see anything.

      So I call another person, who’s my tier 3 support and beg her to take a look because it’s bad and I’m going to have to start escalating this soon. I explain that there is literally nothing I could possibly be doing wrong since I’m doing is logging in, I have no access to change any settings and only have access to the one instance. She hangs up with me and calls me back an hour later and tells me to log in again … It’s there! All the data I needed. I thank her, hang up, and get my stuff done.

      Years later I asked her in passing “Hey nobody ever told me what was going on that day or what happened. ” She laughed and said,

      “Oh, yeah, I called Jane and after telling her I was seeing the same thing you were she figured out she had been logged into the test system. She had loaded your data into the wrong place”

      This is why years later, I always approach these disconnects with an open mind, I never want to be a Jane!

      1. curiousLemur*

        “I never want to be a Jane!” Yep.

        I’ve done tech support. Some of my rules for this include:
        – Never, ever say you want proof of something. You can walk them through stuff, ask for screen shots, etc., but don’t insinuate that they might be lying
        – Don’t be condescending. It could be that they’ve stumbled upon some odd thing you don’t know about.
        – If they act like something is incredibly urgent, it’s OK to ask about that, but DON’T act like it couldn’t possibly be urgent.

  104. whimbrel*

    I’ve been asked to work on some upcoming staffing by reviewing our assessment materials. We have existing interview questions, but one of them in particular has been problematic in getting the information we are looking for.

    Say we’re hiring a cheese wrangler and a senior cheese wrangler, and the question about factors that can impact the global cheese market has tripped up the interviewees even though these potential wranglers have indicated in their resumes that they have experience that should make this question answerable.

    Can anyone recommend resources I can look at for tips on interview question design? I have tried a number of internet searches (including searching here at AAM), but I either come up with pages about how to design research interview questions or interview techniques for UI/UX design.

    1. Rick T*

      It sounds like your question bank is outdated or makes unreasonable assumptions about niche knowledge.

      Have you reviewed the questions with your cheese wranglers to get their assessment or suggestions on updates?

      1. whimbrel*

        I suspect it is outdated, but we’re public sector and so we have requirements on the way assessments have to work which makes it trickier than just picking a new question.

        I’m a senior wrangler myself, and I did get this question while interviewing for my current position. I think it needs work to emphasize that what we’re looking for is a response that touches on, say, increases in costs for animal feed, supply chain problems, changes in popularity of certain cheese, new methods of milk production and cheese production, etc. I think Cthulu’s Librarian’s suggestion to work backwards from the expected answer towards the question is a really good one, so I’m going to give that a try.

        thanks very much! :)

    2. Cthulhu's Librarian*

      I don’t have dedicated resources for you, but I do have some advice.

      Start from the back end – what would a ‘good’ answer to the question look like for your organization? Does it involve a careful discussion of the drought situation in location X, and how that will impact cattle grazing and milk production?

      If so, you might be asking a question that is too specific, or requires too much research for someone to be prepared to accurately answer during an interview. You would be better off asking them what their process to discover how a factor was going to impact the global cheese market would be (after all, when you hire them, you presumably want them to actually do research, and not make a snap judgement based on knowledge which may no longer be accurate).

      Does a good answer instead involve knowledge of some very general industry terms, such as being able to differentiate between mozarella, romano and ricotta? If so, read your question again carefully, and see if it ever actually indicates that is the question that is being asked.

      I remember once being asked “What do you know about the history of our town?” by a library I had applied to. Umm… Nothing significant? I was not applying to be a local historian, and while I had researched the town’s current demographics, I didn’t pay any attention to its history as a mill town in the mid 1800s. At the end of the conversation, the interviewer said they were disappointed I hadn’t read the about us page of the library’s website, and knew nothing about the institution. I had, and could have answered the question of “What do you know about our facility/institution?” which was apparently what they had meant to ask.

      When it comes to evaluating your questions, invite your interviewees to ask for clarification on questions – and make a note to yourself of which questions they actually do it on (that’s a good way to identify questions that are put together poorly). If you’ve got the time and enough people with the skill set internally, do a survey, and see which questions made sense or confused them.

      1. whimbrel*

        Thank you so much for this in-depth reply, I really appreciate it!!

        Your first description of a ‘good’ answer is about the level of detail we’re looking for. We want candidates to be able to identify sources of changes in the state of the cheese market, whether that’s new cheese varieties that require different combinations of milks, or geopolitical situations that mean restrictions on rare buffalo milk from West Northland, or the environmental impacts of cow milk production and costs related to mitigating those. Our positions are involved in regulating the cheese industry, so while we work closely with the cheese producers we don’t actually make the cheese ourselves.

        (This example is getting a bit weird, haha.)

        I went back and looked at the question while I was writing this and it’s actually pretty vague. The section starts with a statement about what the next q’s will be about, and the specific question is “Describe the impact that global economic factors have on [the cheese production industry in our jurisdiction].” So I think we should try to get more specific about what we’re asking for (without actually providing examples).

        FWIW I’m also a senior cheese wrangler, and have gone through this interview process myself – I passed that question, but I had the advantage of having worked in our office for several years with the accompanying internal knowledge that provided.

        Anyway thank you again, this has been really helpful and I’ll give the method you described a try. :)

  105. Sadie*

    My MIL is 65 and got laid off in February from her job. She has been a highly-paid meeting/convention planner for a giant pharmaceutical company. She’s awesome at her job, which requires incredible executive functioning and problem solving skills. She has regularly traveled globally to ensure that the right equipment, set up, etc is there, and has dealt with every kind of terrible personality under the sun. She’s got a solid educational background to support her strong accomplishments.

    In this COVID/post-COVID world, what are some good ideas for her next career move? If she weren’t 65 I wouldn’t worry, because meetings and events will open back up and the field will grow again. But I agree with her assessment that ageism won’t help, and anyway she’s not sure that a heavy international travel schedule is realistic anymore. She’s been on severance pay for a while and is keeping busy, but I’d love to help her brainstorm some potential new avenues she might not have thought of yet. She’s super scrappy and open to things. AAM community, in all your wisdom and experience – what do you think?

    1. SomebodyElse*

      A couple of ideas off the top of my head…

      1. Do the same thing but on a smaller scale solo? Kind of like a hired by the event wedding planner
      2. University Student Center Activity Coordinator (not an exact title) but the person who works in the student union and coordinates the activities and events held in the student center
      3. Another corporate job, but more local and less events (our company has a department that handles the 3-4 trade shows a year we participate in + 1 big user conference)
      4. Coordinator at a local venue or organization that hosts events.

      1. WellRed*

        I agree with smaller scale local events or similar. I assume she’s not interested in retirement?

    2. LuckySophia*

      Over the course of her career, your mom may have established a lot of contacts in the “exhibit firms” that build and ship convention booths for companies. Because those companies have been hard-hit by Covid, and they may have had to let staff go….would they be amenable to hiring your mom on a freelance basis to coordinate/plan particular events on their behalf?

    3. HereKittyKitty*

      I’m thinking any sort of coordinator/project manager/event management job might be a good fit for her! There’s a lot of people looking to put on webinars and remote conventions that are hiring event planners as well. Also if she has any contacts or networking available to her, it might be work reaching out to smaller-scale companies as well.

    4. Maggie*

      I guess I don’t see why she can’t continue doing event planning with maybe a bit less travel. Some places never stopped and even the most covid conservative areas are planning full blown large events and concerts again.

    5. Alex*

      My mom was only a little bit younger than that when she decided to switch careers and go into real estate. In a lot of areas real estate is booming. It sounds like that could be something your mom could be good at, although she would need some credentials.

  106. Goose*

    I keep hearing/reading that there are “so many jobs out there/companies can’t find enough qualified people”….where, and what kind of jobs are these? What industries are you seeing companies fighting over candidates? I am in nonprofits/private education and they are still offering the same low wage/low benefits as usual.

    1. SomebodyElse*

      It’s the jobs nobody wants to work in:
      Trades, manufacturing, logistics (truck drivers), construction, warehousing, etc.

    2. Double A*

      Companies can’t find enough qualified people to work for the low wages and crappy benefits they are offering. Some places are raising wages but it’s not like employers are really competing for workers with each other.

        1. Littorally*

          The ones that aren’t necessarily low wage have other drawbacks; a lot of the ones you mentioned can have serious health/injury issues associated with work in those fields.

    4. Flower necklace*

      There is always a need for teachers, bus drivers, substitute teachers, and other school staff.

      I’ve heard a lot of teachers are retiring or not coming back due to the pandemic, although this is the first time since I started four years ago where no one in my department is leaving.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      When it’s a blanket statement about the job market, I think the vast majority of unfilled jobs are due to companies offering stagnant or low salaries with non-competitive (or no) benefits.

      However, in my increasingly niche field, it’s basically a seller’s market for people with specific high-value* degrees/experience. (*high value at the moment, this hasn’t always been the case!) There are more jobs than qualified people to fill them. My company pays well and offers great benefits, but we’re competing for the same high value candidates as big tech companies, which pay even better.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I had a different kind of thing happen. I store my tires at a tire shop. I went a few weeks ago to get my summers put on. The shop was closed.
      I had driven a ways and they had MY tires. (Can’t run studs after a certain date in NY.) I wandered around the building. Finally someone bubbled to the surface.
      “We are closed because none of our help is reporting for work. They are telling us that they make more on unemployment than they do working….”

      Indeed, my main car repair shop, the MANAGER said he was making almost as much money unemployed as he did working.

      I am hearing that quite a few places are really struggling to find help and remain open. We’ve got a problem in this country. We need to pay people a living wage.

  107. fogharty*

    This isn’t a big thing, but it’s a little curious.
    Our department recently had a job search. One of the candidates had as their email address (not their real one) as “addams.family@xyz.abc” and in their email correspondence it appeared as “Gomez and Morticia Addams (addams.family@xyz.abc)”

    It seems to me to be slightly unprofessional to use a family email on a resume and business correspondence. Am I wrong? No one mentioned it, and ultimately someone else was chosen (nothing to do with the email address, they were just a better fit.)

    What do you think?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      It wouldn’t count against them in a hiring situation, but I agree, it’s slightly unprofessional.

    2. Colette*

      Some people are weird about email. I don’t understand only having a couple or family email and not having a personal one, but some people like doing that. I tend to find that it happens when one person doesn’t want to deal with email, so my only concern would be that (since I work on computers every day), I’d want to make sure they were able and willing to handle email and other computer-based tasks.

      So I’d find it weird and mildly concerning but not disqualifying.

    3. ATX*

      It might just be one of those things where they created a family email address, then ended up using it as an individual one. I wouldn’t really think anything of an email address name unless it was something like “footfetishxx@gmail.com.”

    4. TWW*

      That would make me question their basic computer literacy.

      Any competent office worker should realize they need an individual address and have the ability to acquire and use one.

    5. mediamaven*

      No you aren’t wrong. Why do married people need to share an email address? Bizarre.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      My husband and I had a shared account that he set up in 2000. He’s been gone for a while now and I am still using the account. Too lazy to change? Worried people won’t find me? I dunno. I did set up a gmail account for work and other business type purposes.

      But back in 2000 there was a lot of talk about transparency in a marriage. And the net was a “big and scary place” so couples also had a tendency to team up and look at things together. I can’t speak for younger couples, but that is what we saw and heard back then.

      When I mention changing it, oddly friends will say “noooooo”. So odd.

      1. allathian*

        Yeah, the transparency in a marriage stuff is weird. I had an online friend I interacted with on a forum. We hit it off really well and exchanged email addresses. She wanted to talk about serious things with me like a real friend, but I just couldn’t do it because she had a shared email address with her husband. We did have a discussion about this subject, though. She couldn’t see the problem, because she shared everything with her husband. I told her that not having any secrets from your husband is a choice you and he make together, but I don’t know him from Adam and have no reason to trust him with my confidences. That pretty much ended the discussion, because that was a blind spot for her. Of course, even if she had had her own email address, there’s no way for me to know if her husband also had the password and could read them.

        But I’m leery of shared email addresses, although that’s the only case I’ve run across personally.

  108. Anon in Texas*

    I may be able to finally land into a large employer in my city in a contract role through a former colleague who has confidence in my work. The contract may flip to FT but I understand that this is not a guarantee.

    I’ve been applying for a couple years to get into this company with several interviews with different groups, but no FT job offer. The interactions have always been friendly, even though they didn’t work out. I worry that my previous unsuccessful attempts to land a role there may make it much difficult to be successful there. Is that a valid concern or am I projecting?

    1. Decidedly Me*

      I think you’re projecting. Not getting a job before doesn’t mean that they didn’t think you’d be good in the role; there may have just been someone better each time.

      If it helps, I recently hired someone I rejected during the interview process several years ago. It hasn’t changed how I view his progress vs any other new hire.

    2. curiousLemur*

      I wouldn’t worry about it. You might have gotten the number 2 or 3 spot in the last attempts to get hired, in which case they easily may have wanted to hire you too and would be happy to hire you when they can.

  109. Geriatric Postgrad*

    I got into a 10-month educational program that will help me in my industry, and I got funded for tuition and a small stipend! Hooray. I will still have to cover some additional living costs, and I was wondering if anyone has any ideas about the best ways to fund it. I’ll be an older student and will be unaffiliated with any university, so I don’t think I’ll be eligible for student loans. (Many/most of the other students will be in a BA, MA, or other graduate program and affiliated with a university, so they will likely be able to extend their federal loans.) I’m thinking of taking out a personal loan to cover living costs and paying it back over 4-5 years. I have some retirement funds and am hesitant to take any money out of that. I also have an small emergency savings fund, but I’m also hesitant to touch that because it’s my only backstop – I’m single and could have some family support in an emergency, but I’m basically on my own. Any thoughts? My credit is decent, so I think I can get a pretty decent rate on a personal loan.

    1. Colette*

      My thoughts:
      – between now and whenever you start the program, save and cut your expenses as much as you can
      – look into whether you qualify for student loans – you don’t think you’ll be eligible but it’s good to make sure
      – get the loan while you are still employed, and bring up that you are planning to quit your job (assuming you are)
      – leave the emergency fund and retirement savings alone; I agree that you shouldn’t touch them.

      1. Colette*

        Sorry, DON”T bring up that you are planning to quit your job. That is a very important word to miss!

      2. Geriatric Postgrad*

        Thank you for the comment. I think you basically have my thinking summed up! Great to get another set of thoughts.

  110. Junior Dev*

    For those that work from home—what are some concrete strategies you use to separate out “work time” from “home time”? And for starting work on time?

    I fortunately have a spare bedroom that I’ve turned into an office but I’ve been having trouble with procrastinating on the start of my workday, taking breaks that turn into me lying on the couch feeling bad for half an hour or more, and feeling guilty for logging off when it’s close to the end of the work day but I theoretically could do more. I also tend to have low energy at the end of the work day so while going for a walk or bike ride after work can help, sometimes I am not able to do it.

    I’m planning to go to a relative’s house to work once a week, that helps but it leaves the other days.

    My new job is entirely remote so there will be no post-pandemic return to the office. I live by myself.

    1. ferrina*

      Some tips:
      – Having a routine for starting/stopping work. I would do some yoga, but you could also make it something like turning on/off your equipment, taking out the pens you will take notes with, updating certain documents, etc. Something very routine that you can make in to muscle memory to cue your brain to start working (this takes a couple weeks to kick in). Force yourself to do it the first few times, then it will become habit.
      – Take active breaks. Walk around the block, or do a few sun salutations (yes, I like yoga). Not just at the end of the day, but mid/late morning where you might usually take a coffee break. This can help bring your energy level and focus back up.
      – Set virtual coffee breaks with coworkers. The social breaks can be stimulating, and if nothing else break the routine of laying on the couch for breaks.
      – If you find yourself procrastinating, walk out of your office. You don’t want your subconcious to associate “office” with “procrastination space”.
      – Have work music. I like to use CDs when I Just Don’t Wanna. I’ll turn on Linkin Park or Breaking Benjamin or Icon for Hire and tell myself- “this is 40 minutes long. I’ll work for 40 minutes, then take a break”. Having that time limit is nice because I know my break is coming, though usually by the time I get there, I’m deep enough in my work that I’m able to keep working a bit more. (On the flip side, I now can’t hear Breaking Benjamin without thinking of Excel spreadsheets.)

      Good luck!

      1. SomebodyElse*

        Ambiant noise is great for wfh… there are a lot of great apps that you can set to whatever you are into to help with the need for stimulation.

      2. curiousLemur*

        I like having jazz playing when I’m working. If you’re one of those people like me who can focus better when there’s background noise, you might want something like that.

    2. SomebodyElse*

      I’m a creature of habit, so I haven’t had any problems with the structure. But my biggest tip would be to set some rules and make yourself live by them, some examples below.

      1. logged in by X time
      2. no laying on the couch/fb/whatever off duty hobby you have during work hours
      3. create some type of commute… I heard of people walking around the block to start their day and walking the opposite direction to end the day. I have an annoying light that I turn on for work (it’s a good light, just bright) It is only on while I’m working, turning it off ends my work day.
      4. I largely keep the same schedule regardless of being in the office, traveling for work, or wfh. It more or less keeps the habit and times normal.
      5. Work slippers! Yes, I have been wearing real pants this whole year, but did invest in some work slippers. I also don’t wear my evening sweater during the work day. I literally do the Mr. Rogers thing at the start and end of the day. I change out of my home time sweater and comfy slippers into my work sweater and work slippers in the morning and change back at the end of the day. It keeps the mind tuned to what I ‘should be’ doing. (written while I’ve wasted most of the day here on this site today).

      I’d also suggest trying morning exercise if that’s your thing. I like to be able to change from jammies to stinky workout clothes first thing then into the shower. It’s easier for me to do that than try to fit it in at the end of the day.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Starting on time: Set yourself a schedule – for me, every morning, I wake up at 5:45, futz around on my phone, do my two daily Duolingo lessons and the “daily challenge” on my solitaire and sudoku apps, then a second alarm goes off at 6:30 and I get up and get ready. Bathroom and morning ablutions, get dressed, let the dog out if she got up with me (about half the time she stays in bed with my husband, who also WFH but later), go into my office, and log into my work computer between 6:45 and 7, crack a Coke Zero, and take my morning meds while my VPN is connecting. (None of this is to say that you should be at work before 7am, just, I am a morning person. :P ) Then stick to it. If I try and do other stuff between getting up and working, it’ll throw my whole day off, but as long as I do the same thing every morning I’m good.

      Separating home time and work time: Find some sort of delineation. For some people, it’s wearing work clothes and then changing after work. Some people wear shoes while working and barefoot or slippers when they’re not. Some of my team members do a “commute” before and after – they go out and walk around the block to “walk to/from work”. I think someone here said they have a candle that they light during work hours, or an audio cue like coffee shop background noise or something. But whatever your Work Time Thing is, don’t do it (listen to it, wear it, etc) when you’re not On Work Time.

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I only work in my office/den. If I carry the laptop downstairs, it has to be after hours, and I minimize all the work apps & windows, turn off Slack notifications, etc.

      And I try to enforce a 30- to 60- minute lunch break on myself, not in the office. I’ll make a point of taking a walk during that time, weather permitting.

      1. Not An Architect*

        I have two separate accounts on my personal laptop, a work one and a me one. That way when I want to use it for work then all my documents, tabs, programs, etc. are right there, and when I’m using it for myself in my free time then they’re not.
        I guess if it’s a work-supplied laptop you may not have the admin privileges to set this up, but if you can it’s a great solution!

    5. WellRed*

      I get up earlier than when I went to office and have coffee read AAM or the paper and just ease into the day. Get dressed. It’s also OK to have. Hard stop for the day rather than the unproductive wishy washy “I could do more work.” Would you have stayed late at the office?

    6. allathian*

      If you find your energy levels lagging too much to do any exercise after work, how about before? I don’t have a set start time either, but the days when I actually muster the energy to walk around the block before work, I find I’m quicker to start than when I don’t. I do a slow enough walk in the morning that I don’t get sweaty, so I don’t need a shower then. I prefer to shower in the evening or after more rigorous exercise.

  111. Amethyst*

    I officially changed my last name yesterday and I’m really excited. I can’t make the important things legal until I get the certified court papers in the mail, so how do I handle the interim at work and at school? My signature reads Amethyst Old Name so do I make it Amethyst New Name (formerly Old Name)? Do nothing until I can make it official?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I didn’t change my signature until I had the info updated with HR and IT, but then I changed it to “Red Reader (previously Red Bookworm)” and left it that way for about six months, after which I deleted the “previously” part.

  112. White Lies*

    Am I the only one who doesn’t have the heart to fully explain everything when leaving a job? For some past jobs, I’ve never fully explained why I was leaving (I almost never had another job lined up so I couldn’t tell them I had another position) and spun half-truth, half-lie stories. Told one of them that I was moving to a different city but it was actually me moving in with family and recuperating since I had a mental breakdown. Or for another one, I told them I had to take care of my ill grandmother even though she was on her way to recuperating from cancer and instead I wanted to focus on finishing my degree which I had kept hidden from everyone.

    I just cannot find myself to tell my bosses the 100% truth and am at a loss…

    1. ThatGirl*

      You don’t owe any company the full truth, especially when the full truth is really personal. It’s ok to be vague or tell part of the story. There’s no harm in it.

    2. ferrina*

      This is perfectly okay! You don’t owe them any explanation for your leaving. It’s good that you’re not lying, but that’s really all you owe them.
      Be kind to yourself- this is just fine.

    3. RagingADHD*

      You don’t have to tell everybody you speak to every thought in your head, all the time.

      You also don’t have to tell lies to maintain some privacy.

      “I’m moving to be with family.”
      “My grandmother is sick and needs help.”

      Those are both perfectly fine and don’t need embellishment. If you are quitting because your job is pushing to a mental breakdown, or is otherwise incompatible with your mental health, you can also just say some version of “this isn’t a good fit / this isn’t working out / I need to look for something less stressful.”

      I don’t think I’ve ever told the complete and unvarnished truth when leaving a job, because the details aren’t relevant or anybody’s business. But you don’t need to pretend you’re moving to a different city.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I have often thought that by the time I am leaving details like this really don’t matter to them at all.

      I think what really matters are things such as in the first instance you ACTUALLY took care of yourself and in the second instance you kept working on your degree. It’s really important that we take care of those commitments we make to ourselves.

      I don’t think I have ever told a boss the full reason why I am quitting. It’s none of their business, other than how my leaving relates to the company- such as I have a nice offer some place else, or I am moving, or whatever. You don’t need to lay out a whole long-winded explanation to leave, the explanation can be one or two sentences and that is fine. Matter of fact, it’s probably preferable.

  113. Box of Kittens*

    Working while clocked out – how should I bring this up (or should I at all)?

    My company is short-staffed right now and I am part of a team that travels to satellite locations to cover lunchtime hours for our locations that are required to have at least 2 warm bodies in the building at all times. Today as I was working at this satellite location, one of the folks I was supposed to be covering for clocked out for lunch but continued working with a client for about 30 minutes. She only had enough time left to run out to a fast food restaurant when she was done. We have a 37.5 hour week, so the discrepancy won’t really make a difference as far as her pay, but I feel like I should say something. My manage is this person’s grand-manager (I’m in a different department). I feel like I should bring this up, because hourly staff shouldn’t have to work on their breaks, but we have somewhat of a culture of our front line staff saying it’s fine when they have to do this because our clients need to be taken care of. I have raised a lunch hour issue before and gotten it fixed (I had been required to go to community meetings as part of my job, but it was counted as my lunch break when it was work-related). I feel like I have a responsibility to bring this up too. Should I? How should I go about it?

    1. Colette*

      Assuming you’re in the US, I think you have to bring it up because the company is breaking the law. “Hey manager, when I was on site I noticed some staff were clocking out for lunch but continuing to help customers. I’ve heard that that can mean we have to pay them overtime, even retroactively. I’m concerned that practice is putting the company at risk, and I wanted to let you know.”

      1. curiousLemur*

        Yeah, this.

        I know Alison has written about this kind of thing before in askamanager.org

    2. WellRed*

      Comopany is legally obligated here. Plus do you really like the example it sets if this is expected of workers. That way is a downward morale spiral.

    3. Lizy*

      Say something to her first. She may not know she can’t legally work not on the clock. Just “hey I realized you were still with a client during your lunch break. I totally understand wanting to help clients! But we really can’t work off the clock – it’s a legal thing and we could all get in hot water. Company also understands the need for employee breaks and doesn’t want anyone overworked. I’m here to help – that’s literally my job – so please let me know next time and I’ll be happy to step in.”

  114. T. J. Juckson*

    This will be quite buried by now, but any advice is appreciated. When a job ad specifically mentions basic computer skills– Word, Powerpoint, Excel– do I need to add them on my resume? There’s an older post by Alison saying not to, and many commenters disagreed (although one person said they’d throw out a resume that listed those basic skills). I don’t want to not make it through some ATS because they’re not listed, but I also don’t want to appear like a moron.

    1. Colette*

      I think this depends. I think you can work them into your accomplishments – e.g. “Produced monthly reports by combining multiple sources of data in Excel”

      You can also work them into your cover letter.

      The real question is what would you be removing to add them – if you’ve got space, it doesn’t hurt, IMO.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I think if the ad specifically mentions them, you should have them on your resume.

    3. Cthulhu's Librarian*

      I wouldn’t worry about listing it for basic skills, unless none of the previous positions on your resume are roles where that skill would have been used (in which case, listing it tells someone reviewing the resume about skills you have in addition to those they would expect of your previous roles), or your skills are significantly higher than basic level (ie, I list my skills in various programs that I’m claiming to be prepared to teach others the basics of).

      Usually if the employer truly cares about it, the ATS will have dedicated areas to rate your skills and ability.

    4. mreasy*

      Definitely include them, it won’t make you look anything other than conscientious and detail-oriented.

  115. I Didn't Want To Come*

    It’s performance evaluation time, and UGH. Eight months ago I started a new position with my employer where I work with my manager closer than anyone else. I am his only report, but for only half of my job. The other half of the job involves working with a team, but I don’t report to their manager. I feel awkward about the evaluation because I’m the only report and we chat nearly everyday for much of the day. Not as friends, but friendly colleagues, and we’re really peers in terms of our responsibilities, but the next level boss doesn’t have time (or the desire) to manage us, so he’s pushing that responsibility down to my peer, making him my supervisor. It’s just making an otherwise unpleasant experience awkward.

  116. noticeq*

    I am expecting a job offer sometime this weekend and I’m running into a silly issue with the holiday on Monday. Would it be poor form to give my two weeks on Tuesday and say that my last day will be Friday the 11th? I don’t want to burn any bridges, but it’s not really my fault Monday is a holiday. Don’t worry, I won’t be giving notice until I’ve formally accepted the offer.

    1. SomebodyElse*

      It depends on what your company policy is … be careful as some companies are persnickety when it comes to two weeks for PTO payouts and things like that.

    2. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      Well, yes, giving notice on Tuesday 1st saying your last day is Friday 11th would not be two full weeks. Some bosses will mind this, some won’t. It’s context specific. In most cases, I would mind meaning I would consider it unprofessional but there’s not much I can do about it as a manager.

      1. TWW*

        But even resigning on a Monday and saying your last day is Friday of the following week is not two full weeks–it’s only 12 days. If I resign Monday afternoon, would I be expected to work until lunch on Monday in two weeks?

        How close to exactly 14 days do you need to get in order not to be considered “unprofessional”?

        1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

          It’s manager specific, but I consider it to be two work weeks. So if you resign Monday morning, I am fine with your last day being two Fridays from then. If you resign Monday afternoon at the end of the day, we’ve lost a day of planning for transition.

            1. ecnaseener*

              One day is 10% of the expected 10 business days. Not huge, but not insignificant.

    3. WellRed*

      I’d say go for it! It’s pretty common to end on Friday and the last day of work Is often a formality. If your manager has a concern she can let you know.

    4. PollyQ*

      If you offer to work through the Monday and explicitly say, “because of the holiday,” I think there’s a pretty good chance that your manager will say, “Nah, Friday’s fine.” If she doesn’t, then you know that they care about that last day.

  117. SomebodyElse*

    Do you have other tools/skill that you can list with them?

    I think it is sort of assumed in a lot of jobs now that basic computer skills are needed and most candidates have them.

    That person who throws away resumes is weird and an outlier I think. But the concern about ATS is a valid one.

  118. burnt out*

    Yeah, this was kind of where my mind was at- if she doesn’t think I’m a competitive applicant, I wouldn’t be offended and would in fact be grateful that she saved me the time I would spend on my application. I’m just not sure how to write an email that basically says: “hey, I’d like this job. If you are willing to go to bat for me, please do it & I’ll submit an application. If you’re NOT willing to go to bat for me, I won’t hold it against you, just let me know.” I genuinely wouldn’t be offended, but I can’t find the wording to communicate that, and it feels like it would be putting her in an awkward position either way….ergh!

  119. Kathlynn (Canada)*

    Anyone have advice on how to to adapt advice to wfh where you never see or talk to your coworkers outside of work and only through a constantly monitored chat program while working? Because I don’t know how to “approach hr as a group” in this type of setting. Or showing that I actually care about bad reviews when I receive the information days before we discuss it via voice chat. (no face to face zoom. But similar similar to zoom without video) since I’m struggling to keep my voice calm and chose the right words

    1. TWW*

      I’m not sure if I understand the question, but if you need to communicate privately with a coworker, can you ask for their personal phone number?

      Or if you don’t want to exchange phone numbers over monitored chat, can you find them on Facebook or LinkedIn?

      1. Kathlynn (Canada)*

        Most of us probably don’t have LinkedIn (I don’t). And I could ask for their phone number, but it would fee weird to do so. But like there’s an issue with our pay (we have to sign in 30 minutes early to set up, but aren’t getting paid for it). And people suggested getting your coworkers together and presenting a united front against management for things like this. It’s also things like this that we don’t discuss in the chat. (people also think that industry norm=legal. And we know do not always mean that).

    2. WellRed*

      Is the email not an option? I’m not clear what you’re asking either? I can call anyone via several methods, email, text or Dan.

  120. Jaid*

    Still dealing with mice. I put in a ticket to get my desk vacuumed and the dude still hasn’t come out. Worse, one of the WFH employees came in for half a day to clear out her desk. She’s still not done and left behind TWO trash cans of messed up paper stuff. Not to mention bits of paper and mouse poop on the floor from going through the drawers.

    I hope to G-d they move me or give me health and safety days when cleaning the area…

  121. Tired*

    Any advice for overcoming major burnout to do well at an interview?

    I feel like it’s going to be hard for me to show the fire and passion I used to have. And it will be easy to accidentally to complain about my current company.

    Even if I got the job, I feel like my burnout could really impact me. It feels like I need a solid month or even 2 to recover from how badly I’m burnt out. I wish adults got summer breaks :D

    1. Hunnybee*

      Hug and support to you, friend.

      Do you think that you can add on an extra two weeks to the notice period when you get an offer so that you can have some time for headspace? It is so very hard to feel perky and focused when you’re just at your limit. And also just rounds and rounds of interviews and all of that is exhausting in and of itself.

      Sending you good thoughts this weekend. I hope that the right job — with a healthy balance — will come along for you soon, and allow you to take a well-deserved break.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Talk it through with a trusted friend or family member. Pick carefully.

      My husband got a new job. This was a looong story and a bfd. He told his mother. Her reaction was, “you are on the bottom of the ladder what if you get laid off?” That shut the conversation down permanently.
      We got home and my husband called my father. My father spent well over an hour listening to the story of the new job and cheering my husband on. My father got my husband so pumped up.

      Like you are saying, my husband was dragging because of the previous toxic job. He had no energy of his own. He needed someone with energy to just sit and talk with him. My father was so positive and such a cheerleader that my husband could feel parts of himself coming back to life.

      If you have that positive person in your life, def seek them out.

  122. Casey*

    Anyone have opinions on Steve Dalton’s “The Two-Hour Job Search”?

    My mom got me a copy (we had already talked about it and I said I was interested, it wasn’t one of those pressure-y things) and I’m about two-thirds through it. Most of it makes sense, and as a spreadsheet person I appreciate the systematic approach he lays out. On the one hand, this seems like a lot of work and networking. On the other hand, that’s how you actually land a job.

    Any critique or testimony I should be aware of?

  123. Emma*

    Should I (a 38-year old new manager) hire a 32 year old with ambitions but no real experience, who says she wants to grow and have a fast career, who might try to circle or bypass me to get ahead?

    Or a 50 year old, with experience, but a calm personality, who says she is happy to play second fiddle, but who everyone will assume is in charge because of her being older than me?

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I don’t think age should factor into this at all? Hire the one with the skills, qualifications, experience, and credentials that you need to successfully fill the role. That sounds like the second option to me.

      Why do you think everyone will assume she’s in charge? Plenty of people work for managers younger than them. That’s a normal part of doing business. Not trying to be snarky, just curious.

      1. Wisteria*

        Bad enough that Emma brought up age. Do we need to make it worse by bringing up looks?

    3. Wisteria*

      From the way you describe things, it sounds like your status is very important to you and maintaining it is playing a key role in your decision between these two candidates. Are you sure that is going to help you determine who the best person to fill the job will be?

    4. PollyQ*

      If you’re in the US, and the only reason you don’t hire the older candidate is her (over 40) age, then you’ve broken the law.

    5. WellRed*

      I recommend you seek guidance in managing new manager. Out of the box you’re already less than managerial, a bit territorial and possibly acting illegal. I’m 51. If I can only work for managers older than me, should I just ask to be sent to the glue factory? If the people giving you horrible advice are friends your age, stop talking them about work.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      A good manager realizes there is something greater than them. And they know that some of their subordinates will succeed beyond them. This is part of the job and part of life. There are many ways in life that we set a foundation for someone to go out beyond us.
      There is an Eastern saying that goes something to the effect that a person has created nothing if it cannot continue on without them. (Someone here will say that more accurately, I am aiming for the overall idea.)

      Take age out of this, as it does not belong here.
      Next, having ambitions is a good thing however ethics must remain in place.
      Last and most important. what does that mean having a fast career? I get how off-putting that sounds and the fact that she says this telegraphs that she has a few things to learn yet.

      I think what bothers me here the most is that you have two candidates and somehow they both are positioned to be a threat to you. I find that concerning. Using this perspective here you have narrowed your hiring pool down to people who are younger and have no confidence. This is not a good recipe for their success and in the end, it will definitely impact your success.

      My suggestion is going to see irrelevant, but it’s absolutely critical. Make sure that you know your job. If you know your job in the same manner you know how to breathe and eat, this stuff here does not matter. And that is because you know you can hold your own (older person is no threat to you) and you know who you are (if someone is actually better than you at the work, you are comfortable recognizing it and SAYING SO.)

      I suggest you bring in one or two more candidates to interview. See where that puts you.

    8. D3*

      So basically what you’re asking is “should I commit age discrimination because I am insecure?”
      No. You should not.
      If you manage well, your age will not be a factor.
      If you manage because you view everyone as a threat, you’re going to be a crappy manager.

    9. Heliabel*

      You should seek help from your own manager, because you are already failing at management and that’s very concerning. You have some deeply warped ideas about how this all works, you don’t appear to know your legal responsibilities here, you have the wrong priorities and you seem very immature and insecure. None of that equips you to make a good hiring choice. You need guidance, support, training and, potentially, a step back from making such decisions until you are better able to handle the responsibility.

      The answer, by the way, is the their age is entirely irrelevant, and their willingness to “play second fiddle” to you likely is as well, unless there is a specific work reason why being ambitious and motivated would be a problem for the person in this role. But you hire the person who can do the job the best, based on their skills, work history, references etc.

    10. Nesprin*

      Lol being afraid of an employee who is ambitious is one of those sentences which should make you rethink how you’re hiring.

  124. Girasol*

    As an older worker I have always been happy to explain my working relationship with a younger boss. Is there any reason to think that the 50 year old would not set people straight if they made wrong assumptions based on age?

  125. alwayslast*

    This seems kind of silly to complain about, but my team has a daily call where we go around and talk about our projects and tasks. Every day, the manager calls on people in a different order and EVERY DAY I am last. It just kind of bugs me and makes me think that she might consider me least important subconsciously. But, there is no way to bring it up without sounding petty. I guess I’m just sort of venting and wondering if it would bother anyone else. Happy weekend, everyone!

    1. WellRed*

      Hmm. I get your concern but nothing wrong with asking the manager to mix it up. But if you can’t do that, it’s likely not personal. I am current the last person every. Single. Well. On our weekly teams meeting. I hate it but whatever.

      1. pancakes*

        +1 to that, but it could also be that both of your managers are going to you last because they know they can count on you not to ramble on too long, or not to introduce some odd discord?

    2. fhqwhgads*

      I’ve seen this circumvented a few ways:
      1) The manager calls on the first person only (and they pick a different person every day). Then the speaker “passes” to the next person. So unless literally everyone picks you last, you’ll stop being last.
      2) Different days of the week have different orders. Monday might be alphabetical by first name. Tuesday is the order people arrived in the meeting. Wednesday is alpha last name. Thursday is alpha backwards. Friday is reverse order of arrival. Whatever. But it’s never totally random.

  126. Kaylin Neya*

    Alison this is more a question for you – I don’t know if you’ll see it. I’m sure you get way more mail than you can answer – if you haven’t answered a question that was sent in, how long should we wait before we post it here? I know you say recently, but 1 week? 2 weeks? A month? Thanks!

    1. Enough*

      You can email her directly and ask about posting it here. Alison will let you know if she’s going to use your question.

  127. kelly brooke*

    I remember in elementary school being reprimanded for “goofing off” or not looking like I was working. Nowadays as a 30-something adult, my 5th boss in a row has told me I need to work on building relationships with my coworkers. Seared into my brain is still my elementary school teachers yelling at me for talking with my friends instead of sitting quietly. Has anyone else successfully gotten over this and been able to find success where “goofing off” is actually a necessary part of being a business professional?

    1. Choggy*

      So you’ve gone from one extreme to another? “Goofing off” in elementary school is way different than socializing with your coworkers. You could start off with discussing work-related topics, but then perhaps delve a little into light topics like the weather, their weekend plans, etc. I’m pretty reserved at work, when I’m working, but always make the rounds when I have some time, just to check in.

    2. Flower necklace*

      I’m a teacher, and I admittedly spend a lot of my time chatting with my coworkers. The work still gets done (often outside of contract hours), but there are a lot of work-related reasons for chatting. I get a lot of insight into what’s going on with the students, and I pick up tips and tricks. It also helps build a sense of camaraderie within the department. I know that I can go to my coworkers if I need help, and they know they can come to me if they need anything. I wouldn’t necessarily feel that way if we didn’t have that warm, friendly relationship.

      So, the way I see it, casual discussion isn’t really “goofing off.” There are a lot of concrete, work-related benefits to it.

  128. Someone with a Question*

    Do you have a good alternative phrase for “Being hit by a bus”? This is a sensitive topic in our office because someone’s kid actually did get hit by a bus. For context, for people who do not know, the phrase “Being hit by a bus” is used often when referring to a co-worker having to share their knowledge before something unexpected happens to them.

    1. Pocket Mouse*

      I’ve seen ‘wins the lottery’ – as in wins the lottery and has enough money to stop working immediately. I don’t love that phrase either because it implies an expectation that people would very much rather not work (or not work in the job they’re in) if they didn’t need the money. I usually say something like “in case I’m unavailable” since it’s good to share knowledge and document processes, etc. regardless.

      1. allathian*

        Yeah, well, I expect that most people, when you get right down to it, would much rather not have to work for a living. They might like to volunteer or do other useful stuff to fill their time rather than just lounge around, if they had the means, but I don’t think it’s dishonest to come right out with it that for the vast majority of the working population, the main and sometimes the only reason they work is because they can’t afford not to.

        1. RR*

          I think studies have shown that isn’t true, actually. People feel better (mentally, physically) and take pride in their work. I know it is a cultural thing too, but that is why a lot of people also work a lot of unpaid overtime. Unfortunately, people’s natural investment in their work means employers take advantage. I took a sociology class at one point and there was a phrase for it – anomie? People who work have less of that, at least generally. Less anomie = less suicide, less drinking/other unhealthy habits. Even people who don’t benefit financially much or at all from working often want to work instead of the alternative.

        2. Pocket Mouse*

          Echoing RR, especially with cultural pressures and often feelings of self-worth tied up with one’s work. though it’s true that many people do have to be employed for financial reasons. (Curious that you acknowledge some people would volunteer or do other useful stuff, since that’s very much like work activities, just without the income!)

          In addition, though, I think it’s probably not the most prudent move to insinuate staff—self or others—are constantly on the lookout for a way to leave their current jobs. It feels like a bit of a morale killer, feeds discontent, and is less than complimentary to dedicated staff.

    2. My Cat's Human*

      Much of my old office used ICOB (“in case of bus”). One woman used ICOH (“in case of Hawaii” — as in she won the lottery and moved there) instead.

      (I know — this is WAY late and few if any will read it!)

    1. pancakes*

      I’m not sure why it wouldn’t be. If anything, it seems more ethical to base people’s pay on working x number of hours than it does to pay them more or less based on their success in sales or deal-making. A job like that is not without skill, of course, but there are elements of luck and timing too, not always within the employee’s control.

  130. frockbot*

    I’m pretty sure this is thoroughly buried now, but: how tough is it to make a jump from something like librarianship to tech support/IT? I love teaching patrons how to use computers and troubleshooting issues on our computers and equipment, but I’m not officially our IT “person.” I’m guessing I’d need some kind of training or certification to fully make the switch. Is there any merit to the Google IT certification program? Any other certificates or training programs I could or should look at?

    1. Troutwaxer*

      I think you’d need to check with your HR people. They may have specific certifications they want you to get, or they may have other requirements, or they may have none.

      That being said, Microsoft has some specific certifications for Windows/Office which might be useful, and CompTIA offers a certification called the A+ certification which deals with the basics of Windows, Mac, and networking. They also offer a Network+ certification and a Linux+ certification, and I think possibly a security certification of some kind.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        By the way, the word you’re looking for is “tech support” (at least to start with.)

    2. Gatomon*

      Depends on where you want to go within IT eventually. CompTIA’s A+ is a good way to get your feet wet. If you’re serious about a career in IT, then certification is going to be a part of your life for a long time.

      I’m a network engineer and the gold standard of admission is really Cisco’s CCNA. Pass that and it would be appropriate to look for a help desk job at an ISP or an MSP that specializes in LAN/WAN networking. You’ll be more successful on the help desk and, should you rock it, you ought to be able to move up. Help desk just sucks, so you’ll want to move up the chain within a year or two. But I wouldn’t push past the CCNA before getting more relevant experience somewhere as it really gets expensive and difficult without any hands-on experience. Ideally you want your company to pay for those recerts for you. :)

      A good way to know what is valuable is to look at job listings nearby for the positions you ultimately want to be in and see what they’re looking for in terms of certs/degrees. You can also check out LinkedIn to see what people in those positions have for certifications, degrees and get a good idea of their career path. A related degree isn’t really necessary, but I think it’s good to see how many successful people out there don’t have a degree in IT.

      I’ve never heard of the Google IT Certification Program myself. If you’re going to spend money, I’d save it on something more tried-and-true like A+ or CCNA.

  131. Choggy*

    This is a ‘right to know” question. If I end up going back into the office, do I have a right to know who has and who has not been vaccinated? In my small company (315 FTE), there were over 100 employees who got Covid. Thankfully no one died, but still, that’s a 1/3 of the company. At this time, my company has asked, though it’s not mandatory, that employees provide proof of vaccination, so they can track who has and who has not been vaccinated. But if someone has been vaccinated, and chooses not to disclose that, how does that help their coworkers? My job, IT, sometimes calls for me to visit other locations, and support people who have been in contact with customers, contractors, or others in the community. They come into the office, with their grimy computer for me to work on and can be in close proximity due to the confines of my cubicle. While we don’t have any specific plans for when we will be back in the offices, I won’t feel comfortable going back to the status quo. I think we need a designated area to work on computers, that is well ventilated, and people have to wear masks. My job has changed somewhat in that I now handle more third tier support issues, and those can be done remotely so I will be pushing to continue that. We had a recent meeting with our President who has been working in his (very spacious) office since the beginning of the pandemic, but he does not work closely with anyone like my department does. I keep hearing from him and other senior staff how it’s important to meet face to face, not to lose that continuity, but that’s what got us to this in the first place. It’s that one-sided perspective that worries me we’ll be pushed to return without the necessary thought behind how to do things better.

    1. allathian*

      I have to say I’m baffled about what the big secret with vaccination status is. I would hope that peer pressure would persuade those who are unsure about getting it to get it. For those with a medical exemption, it should be enough to flag them as a medical exemption, without going into details.

      I just wish the medical authorities (CDC in the US, EMA in the EU) would get their asses in gear and approve the vaccines for non-emergency use. This would make it much easier for employers to make the vaccines mandatory.

      Well your CEO is an idiot, to put it mildly. He’s safe enough in his spacious office but wants everyone else to take risks with their health….

    2. pancakes*

      I don’t believe you can successfully urge them to give you a list of names, but wanting to work in a designated, well-ventilated space where everyone is masked is very reasonable, and you should ask for that. On your own if you have to, but as a group would be better, even if there’s only two or three of you. It does seem that the President’s views are shaped by his own particular experiences, but hopefully he and others in leadership will be open to considering other people’s experiences when those are communicated to them.

  132. Database Developer Dude*

    Am I the bad guy here? I want to walk away from this particular gig and go on the bench, because the client is mandating in the office time now, and it’s not necessary….and my project team isn’t advocating for me.

    Two levels: 1. Spouse is immunocompromised because of chemo due to stage 3 breast cancer. Yeah, I’m fully vaccinated, but that doesn’t mean I can’t catch the virus and spread it.

    2. I work on three networks. The biggest footprint is the unclassified network, where I have a client-issued laptop, and can get on the VPN. If there’s no work on the other two networks to do, there’s no reason for me to come in and compete for a seat in the building.

    I’m being told I’m being disloyal for wanting to protect my spouse and reduce my exposure.

    1. pancakes*

      Sorry, I meant to reply to you but somehow made it a freestanding comment below.

    2. Nesprin*

      Turn it around-instead of whether you’re being loyal enough to them, are they being loyal enough to you? Why isn’t your company protecting your medically vulnerable spouse over a contract preference? Loyalty is owed to those who deserve it, and essentially no business ever is due loyalty- if you ceased to generate revenue, they’d fire you.

  133. pancakes*

    Disloyal to who?! Wanting to protect your spouse by minimizing your own exposure is entirely reasonable. I’m not sure what “go on the bench” means, but in context I think it means leave this particular gig and go back into a pool of colleagues awaiting other gigs? It sounds as if you’re absolutely right that there’s no real need for you to come in just to sit there. The idea that it would express “loyalty” to your employer for you to do so anyhow is a pretty warped idea of loyalty. Your employer hired you for tech skills, not skills in sitting next to other people. Ugh. Good luck!

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