open thread – May 7-8, 2021

by Alison Green on May 7, 2021

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. WonderMint*

    I’m part of a team of three; myself, my coworker with ‘Senior’ in his title, and our shared manager.

    The three of us have weekly touch bases. My coworker, who is relatively new to the company, often addresses me during these meetings in the third person as if I’m not there. He’ll say something along the lines of, “She’s on the right track.” It feels like he’s reporting my work back to our shared manager while I’m in the room. We do collaborate often, but there’s a difference between “She’s on the right track” and “You’re on the right track.”

    I would accept this as a quirk except this individual regularly acts like I am entry level, not someone with multiple years of experience. He’ll tell me how to do things I’ve done for years, and no amount of “Oh, I know, I was handling that prior to you joining the company” can suppress the comments. This is the tip of the iceberg with his condescending behavior, but I’ve decided to draw the line at speaking about me as if I’m not in the meeting.

    1. Ashley*

      When my co-workers go third person, I third person it back to them. It is passive aggressive but my manager and their manager don’t think it is worth addressing.
      I would probably try a big picture conversation with Senior one day about this and layout your experience and how he seems to doubt that and if there are things they have seen that is concerning. After that, I would talk your boss about Senior’s behaviors and how it impacting the work? The example of telling you how to do what you have been doing if nothing else slows you down

      1. SheLooksFamiliar*

        As a contracted consultant, I was in a meeting with my HR partner and hiring partner. The HR manager kept referring to me as The Contractor: ‘I’d like The Contractor to tell us about the talent sourcing model on page 3…’ I said, ‘If you mean SheLooksFamiliar, let’s get started…’ She referred to me as The Contractor again, and you can bet she was The HR Person from then on. But I’m petty that way.

        WonderMint, do you think Senior would respond well to a request to refer to you directly, and/or by your name? If not, I’ve always liked this approach: ‘It’s odd that you’re telling me how to do something as if I’m entry-level, when I’ve actually managed this for years. Unless I ask for your input, you can assume I don’t need it.’ Or words to that effect.

      2. TechWriter*

        I’d skip the “does he see things that are concerning” part. I think you intend it like a rhetorical question, with the answer obviously “No, so lay off.” but Senior would more likely see it as an opening to offer more unwanted guidance for WonderMint.

        In my dreams I’d respond with “I’m right here, you can address me if you like.” and “Please stop telling me how to do basic work tasks that I’ve been doing for years.” But I think in reality I’d just be… quietly annoyed.

      3. Llama face!*

        I am imagining these meetings being like politicians in a parliament session: “Madam Speaker, as you can see, my colleague here has yet again failed to grasp the concept of directly addressing the other attendees at this meeting.”

        Sorry you got stuck with a condescending coworker, WonderMint!

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      He’ll tell me how to do things I’ve done for years, and no amount of “Oh, I know, I was handling that prior to you joining the company” can suppress the comments.

      I’d be a little more direct. “Yes, I’ve been doing that for years, long before you got here. So why are you telling me how to do it?”

      1. So not getting paid*

        I use “I’m well aware. Thank you.”

        Pretty abrasive, but it works.

      2. ..Kat..*

        I agree with being more direct about this with him.

        Are you female? This could be some jerk male dominance behavior.

      3. tangerineRose*

        “Yes, I’ve been doing that for years, long before you got here. So why are you telling me how to do it?” This!

    3. TWW*

      He’s rude, and probably assuming that he’ll soon be your boss.

      But in some cases I think the way we use pronouns can be a regional or cultural language difference. I’ve always felt it was shocking to use third-person pronouns to refer to a present person in most situations (one exception being when making an introduction). I remember my very proper English grandmother once telling me off for calling my mother “she,” and I think that lesson has stuck with me ever since. OTOH, when I mentioned this to wife who grew up on the US west coast, she seemed baffled at why anyone would have a problem with that, and she was a perfectly polite person.

      1. WonderMint*

        I agree with your intuition that he either thinks he’s my boss, or he thinks that his title gives him much greater leverage over me.

        I should let the third person stuff go – it just feels like the easiest thing to address rather than some of the other issues. But I should absolutely pick my battles.

        1. SheLooksFamiliar*

          He’s addressing you in the third person, almost as if you’re a subject to discuss. It’s patronizing and condescending, IMO, and part of his overall behavior toward you. He’s not acting like someone who happens to have senior experience, he’s treating you like a subordinate.

      3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

        I think it depends on the intent of what you’re actually saying. The OP’s example, that “she’s on the right track” seems to be a judgement/assessment of OP rather than just something factual, and does seem rude. (I appreciate that it’s part of a pattern of condescending behaviour and this is the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back, but I wonder if there is anything more concrete OP can point to about the condescending behaviour and address that instead?)

        Now that I think of it, I refer to other people in the 3rd person at daily stand ups and things like that – I wonder if it’s perceived as rude? Although I’m not making judgement on people, the things I say are more like “Yesterday I worked with Bob on the mane straightening process and he came up with an elegant way to deal with the tangle problem – Bob, can you elaborate about that?”

    4. Asenath*

      There’s always the response “Who’s ‘she’, the cat’s mother?” used to teach generations of children to use names when referring to people, but your co-worker might not get the point if he wasn’t taught that as a child.

      1. identifying remarks removed*

        Lol – my first thought was that expression. However, I’m English and when I was living in the US I had coworkers who didn’t think referring to me as “she” was offensive. It was a definite cultural difference.

        1. Barbara Eyiuche*

          Yes, I agree. It is English. One of my profs (in Canada) was talking about this, and only the people in the class with parents or grandparents from the UK knew what he was talking about.

      2. CatMintCat*

        I now have flashbacks to my mother saying “She’s the cat’s granny. Use the lady’s name.”

        Australian, and I would never dream of using “she” or a title for somebody who was in the room. My mother would haunt me.

    5. that's no fun*

      This feels a lot like Senior is grouping himself in with manager as if they’re more on the same level than you. I would hate it.

      1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

        Right, sounds like an odd power play to me.

        Good thing, anytime in my career I’ve seen someone do these things, it was because the person did not have enough skills/value to succeed in their job on their own merits, and knew it. Bad thing, it’s still unpleasant and scary when someone uses this technique on you – you never know if this will be the one time out of 1000 when it will work vs the manager seeing through your teammate’s BS. I’d honestly pretend not to understand who the “she” is that he’s referring to, or why he’s explaining your job to you.

    6. LKW*

      I’d be tempted to insert “Well for the most part he seems to be adjusting to the company culture although he does have a habit about referring to people in the third person even if they are present and part of the discussion.”

      Have you called it out -have you said in the meeting – “yo, dude, I’m sitting right here. Can you see me or did I accidentally mix up my sunscreen and vanishing cream again?”

    7. Distractinator*

      “He’ll tell me how to do things I’ve done for years” – my favorite passive aggressive response (very satisfying, and potentially somewhat effective) is to respond with “That’s right! That *is* how I do that process!” like he’s a good student who’s just answered a question correctly. Or better yet “good guess! We do it almost like that here but also…”

      About your primary complaint – given that this guy seems to care a lot about hierarchy, maybe mention to your shared boss that you find it annoying and explicitly ask them if they can correct him next time he does it to you – “You know, she’s in the meeting, it’s not polite phrasing to talk as if she’s not here”. You’re not asking them to fight you’re battles, you’re determining the smartest tactic. Or at least if you’ve spoken about it, they’ll have your back and are likely to agree with you when you correct him, as opposed to acting confused or downplaying it.

      1. Crabby Patty*

        > “That’s right! That *is* how I do that process!”

        I love the friendly sarcasm! Will have to use.

    8. Noncompliance Officer*

      I was in a meeting one time where people were trying to brainstorm solutions and someone said, “I bet NonComplianceOfficer can tackle this issue in his spare time.” I said back, “I really don’t think NonComplianceOfficer has any availability and he would appreciate it if you didn’t talk about him like he isn’t here.”

    9. Person from the Resume*

      I’d let the third person thing go and focus on other stuff.

      When he calls you “she” in the meeting, he’s talking to your boss about you. If he calls you “you” then he’s talking to you and not your boss even if your boss is in the room.

      Like if the boss asks him: “how’s the project going?” And he’s answering the boss then he would say “I did this. And she’s on the right track.” He wouldn’t use “you” for you because he’s answering the boss and not you.

      So he’s just always directing his conversation to the boss during these meetings. Let that go and focus on the other stuff.

      1. introverted af*

        Agreed frankly. I know it can be frustrating to be treated this way, but unless Senior is talking over you when you are expected to answer for yourself this would not be my hill to die on.

    10. Chilipepper*

      Right in the meeting say, “you said she is on the right track, who is ‘she’?”

      At another meeting with the manager, I would bring up the other issue. Say, “coworker, you often explain to me how to do my job but I have been doing these tasks for years. I wonder if you have a concern about how I am doing the tasks?”

    11. Momma Bear*

      If the meeting is a one on one, that is very weird. I can almost see it if it’s the three of you. Have you talked the shared manager? One of my favorite PMs is the kind of manager that is quick to call people out for crappy team behavior. “WonderMint is here. Why don’t you address them directly?” Or “WonderMint has been working on this task for three years. Do you not trust their judgement?” Can your shared manager help in that way?

      Regarding the work you already know how direct have you been? “I’ve been doing Teapot design for three years and I understand this process. The way you keep reminding me how to do it implies that you have a problem with my work. What is the specific issue here?”

    12. Observer*

      When he starts instructing you perhaps you could respond with “As I said, I’ve been handling this since before you got here. So why are you telling me this?”

      And when he refers to you in the third person you could call him on it in the moment – “I’m right here.”

    13. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Any chance your name is Joaquin and Senior thinks you are Wakeen? :-)

      I’m with Ashley, third person it back to him. “Can Senior Llama Wrangler submit his TPS reports on Friday? Will Senior Llama Wrangler need those hoof prints by noon?”

      As far as mansplaining your job to you, if you stumble on a solution, I think we could all use it. As far as I’m aware there is no cure, but you could try a pointed, “I’m not entry-level” Every.Time. he gives you advice.

    14. SnappinTerrapin*

      Is he prior military?

      A lot of NCOs form a habit of speaking in the third person. It’s considered more respectful, rather than condescending.

      Which doesn’t rule out the possibility that Senior intended disrespect.

      1. WonderMint*

        He’s not – but “Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain” pointed out there is no hard and fast way to solve mansplaining, which is exactly what is going on between us.

        1. SnappinTerrapin*

          I agree. That is a more disrespectful behavior than the third person.

          Work interrupted me before I got to that point.

    15. TimeTravlR*

      My go to in these moments is a joking, “hello!! I’m right here!” Most (most) people get the point.

    16. Violette*

      “He’ll tell me how to do things I’ve done for years…”

      Can you come up with a cheery response that sounds like you’re giving him genuine kudos for being a fast study? “Hey, it’s great that you’re picking up on how we do things here so quickly!”

    17. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

      I might try something like “Hang on a minute. I feel we’ve got wires crossed somehow, because you’re explaining this to me as though you think I don’t know it, but to me this is all familiar stuff. Is there some particular thing which happened which gave you that impression? / Is there some particular aspect you think I might not have encountered before?” And persist with it till either we’d identified where he got the wrong idea, or we’d established that it was groundless. Basically the approach is “Here is a misunderstanding which is affecting our work, let’s get to the bottom of it”.

      That said, I do also let things like this go if I’m not going to be working with the person long term. Inward thought “I’m noticing that you seem to think I’m an idiot, but I only have to put up with that a little bit longer, so let’s just do the task”. It’s the long-term nature of working with this person which would tip me towards more likely investing in addressing it.

  2. May Flowers*

    After a very long year of being furloughed due to the pandemic, I have a new job! However I have no idea what to do about my old one. Should I just quit or do I leave myself still tied to them should they ever get back on their feet? My direct boss (who was also furloughed) and my references all knew I was searching. I wouldn’t mind a chance to go back to my old job if they ever wanted me back but I also am excited for this new job. I don’t know what to put on my resume, because all the advice I saw on here was to not write an end date with a furloughed job because you’re not technically gone from them but I don’t know how long they want to keep me in furlough limbo. Also I have a work laptop that I want to give back and would love to get all my stuff off my desk for my new job (we all suddenly started working from home with no idea that furloughs were coming).

    So what should I do about this dangling thread about my furloughed job? Just leave it alone, at least ask to get my desk stuff back, or should I just withdraw entirely for a clean break?

    1. Taura*

      If you’re 100% about accepting the new job (and it sounds like you are), wouldn’t you just resign from the old one?

      I’m assuming these are both fulltime and you wouldn’t be able to do both if you accept the new one AND your old job brings you back from furlough. So it sounds to me like you should 1. Accept the new job if you haven’t already and get the ball rolling there 2. Resign from the old job and arrange to return their equipment and pick up your stuff from the office and 3. Update your resume to say “Job at Company A, from back then to May 2021” because you’ve resigned, so that’s an endpoint. I don’t think it sounds like your old boss or company would feel like you ditched them or burned a bridge for leaving in this situation.

      1. Ya Girl*

        Yes, exactly. Unless these are two part-time positions that could feasibly be done at the same time I’m not sure what else you would do!

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      I would go with the clean break. Just, psychologically, it’s easier to commit to your new life and not marinate in what-ifs.
      Should your old company ever bring people back, they could just rehire you in the conventional way. But a year is a long time for a furlough, with no end in sight.

    3. 867-5309*

      I am confused… If you’ve accepted a new job then the expectation is you officially resign your old one? Unless you are temporary or contract in the new position?

      If I found out someone accepted an offer but did not resign their last position formally in hopes of being called back, I would be upset and consider the ethics of their decision-making. It is not fair to either employer. When you leave, you can let your old employer know you would welcome the opportunity to return in the future if business allows it.

      As your resume, you could do something like this:
      06/15-05/21: Marketing Manager (Furloughed from 03/20)

      Or:
      06/15-03/20: Marketing Manager
      04/20-05/21: Marketing Manager (furloughed)

    4. Blue Eagle*

      If it were me, I would wait to say anything to the old employer until after your first week of work to make sure it is what I thought it would be. And at that point I would contact the old employer to say I have a new job and would return their computer. I wouldn’t say anything until I actually started, though, because anything can change between the time you accept the offer and your first day of actual work (e.g. old company calls you back, new company rescinds the offer, etc).

      1. Can Can Cannot*

        +100. There’s no need and no benefit to resigning your old job until you are certain about the new job.

    6. A Simple Narwhal*

      If your old job became un-furloughed, would you drop your new job and go back? Because if you knew for a fact that you’d do that, then I don’t think you’d necessarily need to say something – and in fact I probably wouldn’t, since that might affect their plans to eventually bring people back (it might push you down the list/eliminate you from consideration). But if you wouldn’t drop the new job and are just open to the idea of working for your old company someday in the future, I think you should say something to your boss, especially since you need to turn in company property and get your own property back.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        Wanted to add that my advice to say nothing assumes no double-dipping or any conflicts such as receiving benefits that assume you aren’t working another job while waiting for the first one to come back.

    7. Bagpuss*

      I agree with others that you need to resign (unless these are both part time roes) but in your resignation letter you can say how much you enjoyed working there etc, so you are not burning any bridges.

      If your direct manager is still working and not furloughed then you could also consider calling them direct and mentioning that you have had to move on as of course you need to to work, but that you’ve enjoyed working at the company and hope she’ll keep in touch. If you’re on good terms then there’s no reason why they wouldn’t view it favourably if you apply in future if jobs come up that would suit you.

    9. Momma Bear*

      IMO, someone who is furloughed always has the option to move on and I would expect that a certain percentage would do so. If you have a new job, put in your notice so they don’t call you back/you have no loose ends. Tell them that while you would love the opportunity to come back/work for them again, you have to move on at this time. It’s all business – theirs and yours.

    10. LizM*

      I know the rules are different for feds, but our ethics rules mean that we can’t take outside employment if there is a conflict of interest, and those apply even if we’re furloughed. If the two employers are competitors, I’d make sure there is no conflict of interest between your new job and your furloughed job and check what your ethics rules are, but you may need to formally resign.

    11. I'm just here for the cats*

      If your furloughed they probably figure people are looking. Especially if they haven’t given you any timeline for returning. I would just reach out to your old manager or whoever is still at the company and say that you started elsewhere. Then ask about coming into the office to drop off the work stuff and pick up your personal belongings.

  3. Seeking Recommendations*

    Hello,
    I received an email last week informing me that an employee of mine has applied to a graduate program and listed me as someone who will provide a recommendation letter. 
    That was news to me, but *shrugs shoulders* ok… it’s not too unusual for our industry and the program is one that caters to working professionals so it’s not an issue of this signaling the employee plans to leave. 
    When I go into the website to submit, I see a series of questions and a notification that the applicant has not waived their right to review the recommendation. I am asked to rate the employee on a scale of 6 and the scales are top 1-3%, 4-10%, 11-30% etc. For some questions, I don’t think my employee is in the top 30% and it also specifically asks about their professional ability to succeed. 
    I’m uncomfortable answering these questions knowing my employee will review later as these things are not things I’ve discussed previously with them. I haven’t addressed these things because, while I think the person is not, for example, a great communicator, their lack of skills in that area has not been integral enough to their success that I need to mention it. In other cases, I have mentioned areas for improvement but so far have not tied those things to impacting their ability to advance, which I am being asked about. They are relatively new professionally.
    I don’t meet with the employee for another week. I don’t think there is an upcoming deadline to submit this so I have some time. 
    Does anyone have a recommendation on how to handle this? 

    1. merope*

      With regard to whether or not your employee will see the recommendation: having not waived their right doesn’t mean they will automatically be sent a copy of your comments; it only means that they will be able to view the comments if they want. If this prospect makes you uncomfortable, I think (as a person in academia) it would be quite acceptable to decline the recommendation request.

      As for your question about the content of the recommendation, as you note, these are not skills required for the person’s current position. If you did want to frame your comments to the individual, that would be how I would do it, acknowledging that graduate work is different from their current employment situation.

      In the context of the recommendation you would give, from my perspective as a humanities scholar, a top 30% would not be sufficient to admit the student to the program, and so you might also want to consider whether you are the best recommender for this person as you don’t really believe that they’ll be successful there. That might also a good reason to decline the reference request.

    2. treeway*

      I’d say talk to your employee! Do it in a light way, that lets you scope out the importance of your recommendation/whether they will review it, like “I saw you applied for X program, that’s a great step, I hope you’re successful. Do you have any idea what they look for in a recommendation?”

      You never know, it might just have been a small tick box to waive and they didn’t know not to tick it, or they didn’t know it would be weird not to waive. (I do think it’s weird they didn’t talk to you about this beforehand if they were putting you in as a recommendation, since that’s just courtesy, but starting a conversation about it will give you a sense of where they’re at)

      1. Rhubarb McCustard*

        Nah, this isn’t modelling good professional behaviour. Just be direct.

    3. 867-5309*

      I think you need to tell them…

      “Josephine, I received the request for a reference to your grad school program. I was not expecting it and when I went to answer the questions, a couple things popped up.

      I think you excel at x, y and z and am happy to reference that but they also ask about a, b and c, which are areas where you have opportunity for growth so I would not be able to rate you as highly. It has not come up before because a, b and c are not critical to the work you do for us at Acme Inc. but I did not want you to be surprised if you see my answers to those questions. I want you to be successful in pursuing your advanced degree so let me know if it makes sense for someone else to serve as your reference to the program.”

      1. LKW*

        This. Give them the opportunity to switch references or make the case why you should evaluate them differently.

      2. Reba*

        Yes, this. I actually would point out that it is Not Great to spring a recommendation request on someone, too! Like, more directly than “not expecting it.”

        You could say, “it would have been better to talk with me beforehand; it’s polite to give recommenders a heads up in general, and in this case I think we should discuss what my recommendation would say.”

        1. Jane of all Trades*

          100% agreed. To be honest I think it does not reflect well on their judgment to spring this recommendation on you. They should have checked if you are comfortable doing this, and if you will be able to provide a strong recommendation.

      3. Malarkey01*

        THIS, PLUS providing feedback for professional growth and subpar skills is your job as a manager with or without recommendations. It’s fine to say “while this is not critical to our work your communication skills aren’t where they should be. I encourage you to improve them by (example) (example).” This should be part of regular feedback.

      4. Llellayena*

        This. I would also add in that conversation “also, since one of the areas I think you could improve on is communication, you should know that receiving the prompt for a reference without you asking if I would be willing to provide one is one example of this. Asking ahead of time allows the person to decide if they can provide a good review (which you don’t want to find out they can’t mid-review) and if they have the time to complete it.”

      5. Elle Woods*

        This is excellent advice, IMO. It gives the employee an opportunity to explain why you were chosen as a reference and your approach in serving as one.

      6. Public Sector Manager*

        Definitely THIS! No good can come from being honest in the online review. It will probably sink the employee’s chances and then your employee, who didn’t tell you about being a reference, will be demoralized and if they review your comments, is going to be even more of a problem.

        The best and kindest thing to do is to follow this script and let the employee find another reference that can speak to the qualities the program is looking for.

    5. Carol*

      The custom, to my knowledge, is to decline if you know it won’t be mostly positive or a strong recommendation. If they’re newer, you could use that as an excuse if you are not looking to have a performance review conversation yet.

      FWIW, it’s definitely expected that you will request a reference for grad school ahead of time (because they take a lot of time and academics are very busy), and I certainly waived my right to view my recommendations as a courtesy to them. So she’s (imo) violating or unaware of some basic norms here that theoretically should come up if she’s researching how to get into academic programs.

      But I would definitely not submit a mixed or negative review. Even though she did not follow proper process, you will tank what is a fair amount of application work and probably money on her end by doing so, and it’s much kinder to just decline and tell her to find someone else.

      1. Crabby Patty*

        >it’s definitely expected that you will request a reference for grad school ahead of time (because they take a lot of time and academics are very busy), and I certainly waived my right to view my recommendations as a courtesy to them.

        Yes, this, precisely. I’m asking a favor that generally is time-consuming, and, in return, am giving the recommender the space to write freely and honestly. It’s only fair.

    6. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

      My graduate program asked me to put a supervisor as a recommendation source since the program was catered to those who were currently working in the field. HOWEVER, I asked my supervisor prior to listing them.

      Since they didn’t waive their rights, if you feel comfortable, I would just print out the recommendation form, and show them how you would mark them as part of your meeting. You can then give them the option to allow you to send, or find a new person to recommend them.

    7. Bagpuss*

      I can’t comment on whether you should decline or submit a mixed recommendation as I’m not in this field, but I do think it’s appropriate to speak to her and raise these points so she can make an informed decision as to whether she still wants to use you, and I’d also be very clear with her that it is both rude and unwise to give out someone’s name as a reference or as someone who can provide a recommendation, unless she has asked in advance whether the person whose name she gives is willing and able to help .

      Rude because you are asking them to do you an (often quite time consuming) favour for you, and unwise because the last person you’d want writing a recommendation or giving a reference is someone you’ve just annoyed by making assumptions and handing out their contact details, or someone who may be caught off balance if they get a phone call asking for a reference…

    8. Mouse*

      I will say, I recently applied through one of these, and they did not make it super clear that adding a name would automatically send them an email. It was clear if you were paying attention, and maybe you can take that as an indication of your employee’s attention to detail, but I personally would be curious to see if they bring it up in your next meeting not realizing that you’ve already gotten the email.

      1. Jessica*

        This! Sometimes also a system won’t let you advance further in the application process until each step is complete, so if the topic for your application essay is listed on page 6 and the request for references is on page 5, you have to fill out the reference part first before you see the rest of the application.
        It was definitely a faux pas for her to list you as a reference without asking you first, but she might have thought she was just putting in your info as a placeholder and was planning on talking to you about it later.

    9. Another JD*

      When I asked my favorite professor for a grad school recommendation, he said he would only do it if I waived my right to see it. Some professors wish to keep things private, which I respect. I absolutely wasn’t worried about what he was going to say – I was one of five students regularly invited to his house, and fifteen years after graduation we still keep in touch.

      1. Esmeralda*

        Yes, that’s what I’ve always done. I almost always send the student a copy of the letter, but they have to waive their right to see the letter before I’ll write it.

    10. Crabby Patty*

      It’s customary to waive one’s rights, because it allows for an honest recc and shows confidence in one’s work.

      I really wish this truism were promoted more heavily in academia and elsewhere.

    11. tamarack and fireweed*

      You got some good advice, and this was clearly at least inelegant. But I want to comment on one point: I see more and more people who are asked for references for grad programs refuse to answer that ranking question since it seems overall quite unfair to applicants, especially if their itinerary to grad school was in any way not completely linear.

    12. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I’d go through that form with my “draft” answers first, and give her the option to go through it with you or to just submit it. Things like communications skills that could be improved are always useful even if not integral to the job at hand, so it could be a useful opportunity for her to get feedback outside of the usual “review” process if she is open to it.

  4. Rayray*

    Feeling conflicted. After a few years in two different jobs I hated, I was laid off last year and then started a new position. It wasn’t my ideal position but I was desperate and had relevant experience. It honestly is a good company, little toxicity in comparison to previous jobs and a good culture. The job I was hired to was admittedly a little beneath my skill set but I was hired in at the top pay rate for it.

    As I got into the job, I was a little nervous because some people had been there a few years and were still a level 1 or simply hadn’t made any lateral moves. I was getting ready to fix up my resume and just send it out if I saw anything. I was then offered a sideways move with a little pay bump ($2/hr). They were rebuilding a team that had gone through some drama and turned over almost entirely. My manager clarified the bad things I’d heard and assured me my new manager was wonderful as he had Started out working for her.

    I do kinda like the job. It’s less boring than my last one but I am having those new job struggles where it’s hard to remember everything I’m learning but I think I can get there. I just kinda feel like maybe I still want to try looking for something else if possible. Housing costs have skyrocketed so badly I had to move back to my parents house when my roommate moved out of state. I want my independence but it’ll be a very thin budget with this job. I know I need to be loyal to myself before I am loyal to my company But I’d still feel kinda bad if I just jumped ship. My former manager really pulled for me and for getting me better pay. Like many jobs, the pay rate is probably similar or only a little better than it was 8 years ago but housing costs have basically doubled.

    I know this is more of a rant than a question, but any one have advice?

    1. Lucy McGillicuddy*

      If they don’t pay you enough to afford rent you shouldn’t feel bad about finding someone who will.

      1. Carol*

        YEP. If you have to live with your parents (and you don’t want to) this job doesn’t pay enough and you are perfectly entitled to find something else.

        If you do find something and resign, you can always acknowledge that your manager went to bat for you and thank them, and just be clear that it’s a timing/pragmatics thing.

        1. Rayray*

          Thank you, I like that advice. I was genuinely shocked when he brought up the pay because he wanted to keep me. I was actually making more than most people on the team (it’s easy to tell when they do that level 1 and level 2 thing) I am not saying al managers are stupid but it was incredibly refreshing to hear someone openly talk about money as a motivating factor for employees.

          1. Momma Bear*

            The bottom line is it’s all business – yours and theirs. Even though your manager went to bat for you, if you can’t afford housing then that’s still not good. Look for something that will pay you what you can live on. You can also consider a roommate situation vs parents, but that’s a personal choice.

    2. 867-5309*

      Where the previous few years with two different jobs at the same company?

      It sounds like you are trying to figure out what you want. If the last four roles you’ve had were not “ideal” (two you mentioned hating and these last two) then before moving someplace else, get clear on what you want and do not want beyond just salary.

      1. Rayray*

        So on the job history,

        The job I had 2013-2019 was my first out of college job. It was fine at first but got increasingly toxic worth management changes and I realized I’d never move up there plus I never got raises so I bounced.

        The job I had 2019-2020 was something I could have enjoyed and really excelled at but I worked for an absolutely INSANE micromanager. It was absolutely awful. I was laid off and it was such a relief.

        I do think I’ll like my current role, I’ve learned that a successful job for most people is finding something they’re good at and like an OK amount not necessarily passionate about it. I just would like to earn more money but I’m pretty capped out probably. I also don’t like my commute and while I could move closer, I wouldn’t go too much closer.

        I like the company a lot and was waiting til I had passed my 1 year mark to ask about moving around within. I’m happy I got this move but I need more money. I’m considering maybe doing some classes or something to help me out there. Housing costs have just gone crazy here in Utah, like insanely so and I honestly feel like most employers probably aren’t keeping up. I feel like my pay is probably fair but I need to look out for myself. I could definitely get by with a roommate but I’m at that age where most friends are settled in their own situations and I’m not about to move in with a random.

        1. Rayray*

          And to clarify, I was hired at this company in July 2020 and was offered the new role just a couple weeks ago.

        2. 867-5309*

          This is tough… I do not think the move will reflect badly on you since you were at your previous company so long and then laid off due to COVID. That said, have you talked to your boss about the salary band? If you are being paid fairly, what is the likelihood that you will find something that pays more?

          FWIW – Utah is not unique. I live in a Midwest city and both the rental and buying markets are through the roof. Given how quickly things started to jump 10, 20 and more percent, I’m not sure how an employer would keep up, on top of some speculation that we’ll see a market adjustment to housing; though hopefully not as severe as 10 years ago.

          Bottom line – it never hurts to look and see if you can find something that pays more money. It’s easy to say “money isn’t everything” but do keep in mind that you might trade money for misery and just be okay with that. I think you’ll need to stay in your next gig for a couple years.

          One last thought on a personal note… I am over 40 and still rent. I move every 2-3 years. My friends all own homes (or at least, have mortgages – haha), most have kids, etc., including my younger siblings. There is no one journey so if you need to, and are open to, room-mating up to get you where you want and need to be, don’t worry about the optics. You do you.

          1. Rayray*

            Thanks for taking with me! I appreciate your advice. Money definitely is. Lag important BUT I would rather stay here and be on a thin budget than be somewhere I’m miserable. I might put out some feelers but I may just try to work some overtime or maybe even try a side gig. I’ll figure something out.

            1. Kes*

              Yeah, I think I would investigate in both directions – talk to your boss about what opportunities exist for advancement within your team/company (read: that would give a raise), and also do some preliminary research in your local job market to see what kind of roles are being listed that you could apply for and also what such roles are typically paying at other companies (glassdoor/payscale). That way you can make a more informed decision about what you want to do.

          2. Utahn*

            Utah is not unique. I live in a Midwest city and both the rental and buying markets are through the roof.

            Though I feel like Utah/Colorado/Idaho/Wyoming also have the added issue of being hemmed in by mountains so in some cases it is difficult to find somewhere to build. In Utah there have been some pretty prominent cases of houses sliding off mountain faces or mountain faces sliding onto houses which is not encouraging when the only place left to build is up the side of the mountains.

            There’s a lot of land west and south of Utah Lake but to make those areas actually useful for expansion, you’d need a bridge/causeway over the lake. Eagle Mountain and Saratoga springs on the northern part of the west side of the lake are already a pain in or out of especially if there’s any construction on Redwood Road since that is the major artery on that side of the lake. I feel like they should almost make a bypass or spur of I15 if they want the land west of Utah Lake to be developed in any meaningful way.

            Utah also has the problem of 65% of the land area being owned by the federal government, an additional nearly 15% either state owned or tribal owned. Private ownership and so in most cases private development is restricted to only about 20% of the state. In some areas where just isn’t anywhere to build. There’s a lot of local resistance to high density housing, and most of the higher density construction that you do see is geared towards luxury not affordable housing. There was a housing crisis in Utah before the pandemic and it is only getting worse.

            I looked at housing costs recently and I could possibly afford a house (I rent right now) in Vernal UT…which is over some mountains, through a national forest 160 miles from my work.

            1. Brooklyn*

              I’m not from Utah, and you obviously know your area best, but I think you’re underestimating how many places have similar issues, if not necessarily with mountains. I live in New York, which is a bunch of islands and the city can’t expand unless transit does – which means the city would need to buy up land to build through, which is becoming less and less possible. Used to live in Oakland – hemmed in by mountains and two bays. Before that, San Diego – go more than 5 miles from the coast and you end up in the dessert and it’s 20 degrees hotter.

              There’s a lot of places where the only way to accommodate growth is by building denser, and Americans really don’t react well to their formerly single family neighborhood getting apartment complexes. Keeping an area affordable means keeping housing prices low, and current home owners don’t want that. It’s the inevitable effect of telling a generation of people that housing is an investment.

  5. Ann Perkins*

    Good morning! Does anyone here have knowledge related to hiring for federal jobs? I’m applying for a direct hire job within the Treasury. My husband’s a fed so I have some familiarity at least but I’m stuck on the documents section. It says “The following documents are requested for this application. You do not need to submit documents that are not applicable to you.” and then has a long list of documents, some of which are obviously not applicable since I don’t currently work for the government. But it does include cover letter and performance appraisal. Spouse said don’t include my most recent performance appraisal, but what about the cover letter? Is it best to go ahead and include one for a federal job?

    1. Ann Perkins*

      Also if anyone has any tips or insight, I’d be grateful. I’m currently trying to get out of a job where I’m paid five figures less than the man I replaced, at the same juncture of our time in this role.

      1. TimeTravlR*

        Include it since it’s on the list.
        My top tips for getting a federal job (I apologize if someone has already said this, but helping people get into the fed is one of my passions):

        Before you do anything with your resumes, read the vacancy announcement. Then read it again and highlight keywords… anything that jumps out to you as really important to the position. For instance, advanced Excel experience, data analysis, etc. Then, as Alison’s has taught us, don’t just write a description of your job. First list the job, general duties, systems, etc., then under each job description list accomplishments that pertain. Quantify!

        So your experience section should be:

        DATE – Present
        EMPLOYER CO. 1, Location, CO
        Supervisor: Joe Joseph, Supervisory Relocation Analyst, jo.joseph@employer1.com, 216-555-1212
        Position: Relocation Analyst

        Write a paragraph or so about your job, again tying it to the vacancy announcement and using keywords as much as possible.

        ACCOMPLISHMENTS:
        – Developed data analytics dashboard utilizing Tableau to provide real time information to senior leadership. Recognized with cash award.
        – Integral participant in working group to revise and refine national housing relocation program. The efforts of the working group resulted in a 20% increase in relocations completed in less than 30 days, and savings of $1.2M.

        I have even gone so far as to capitalize keywords, especially if they are at the beginning of a paragraph.

        For example:
        DATA ANALYST for nationally recognized relocation program, providing on time support to customer-centric database something something.

        Best of luck!!!

    2. McMurdo*

      I would say include it! I’ve gotten federal interviews with and without them, but definitely more often when I’ve included one.

    3. Usually Lurking*

      I would still write a cover letter, especially if the job is beyond entry level. They do not necessarily use the letter to score your application (and in fact for getting through the first round where your application gets referred to a hiring manager or not they probably wont look at your cover letter at all). But once if gets to interviews the people interviewing you will have read your cover letter and it will impact their thinking of you, even if they can’t explicitly use it to justify hiring you.

      2. Cover letter needed!*

        Absolutely right. I help hire for my federal office. Cover letter is crucial when you get hundreds of applications. And AMA has good advice on writing one.

        1. Are cover letters needed?*

          Hm, from what I know at my center, cover letters don’t even get passed onto the actual hiring managers at the center doing the actual hiring. Only the required documents that the job application asks for are what the HR reps pass onto when they make the referrals.

          Unsurprised to see that it probably changes from department to department though. So @Ann Perkins, you should probably include it (since it definitely doesn’t hurt), and also my experience is 100% Not at the Treasury.

    4. It’s just a name*

      If it asks for a document you need to submit it. It could be the people screening the packages will reject you just because you omitted something requested. I used to give applicants a note if their package was incomplete and would consider them if they got the materials in before the deadline but not everyone will do that. Also following instructions is a factor we considered. If I asked for a recent and relevant writing sample and you sent a 10 year old sample that did not illustrate relevance to the job, you were rejected.

      1. Ann Perkins*

        Thank you! So if USA Jobs only lists resume and questionnaire then I should be good if I opt to send a cover letter too, correct? What’s throwing me off is the phrasing of “requested documents” once I get to the agency’s website but then most don’t apply to me, like an SF50. Writing sample is included on the list too but that would be unusual for the kind of job I’m applying for.

        1. It’s just a name*

          A cover letter is a good idea. My organization rarely lists jobs on USAJobs and instead uses our own site. Our employees are all exempt and we get to do our own screening. For other positions, an HR rep that is relatively unrelated to us does the initial screen and creates “certs” (certifications) which is a list of people who passed the screening and we can select from. As an example, I was hiring for a paralegal position but the HR rep put someone on my cert list who was a gate guard, you know, because legal work and law enforcement duties are apparently the same to them. Also veterans preferences were listed and if we hired someone from the cert list who did not have that, we had to write a justification for selecting a non-veterans preference person. Not a big deal when you are looking for a specific set of skills. Also when HR was screening they would dumb down our job description making it more generic. Ideally I was recruiting a patent paralegal but I wasn’t permitted to ask for that experience only a more general job description. I really don’t miss hiring people. :)

      2. Fed Too*

        With federal jobs once they close you cannot accept updated documents for incomplete packages with the exception of updated references*. Include everything on the list that you COULD provide and it may not be looked at but won’t disqualify you if you over provide. I’d disagree with your husband that you should include a performance review if you have one.

        *I believe this is universal but policies do sometimes differ by agency or job series

    5. LCH*

      Usajobs frequently holds webinars on this but the time frame to get signed up seems to be a month.

      1. Ann Perkins*

        The turnaround time on this position seems really quick – the job is only being posted for a week. I’m hopeful, it’s just new to me to go through a federal job application since I’ve always worked private sector for small employers with much more informal processes.

        1. Cover letter needed!*

          Yes, to clarify, submit a cover letter even if not required. It helps differentiate you from dozens or hundreds of others who have applied, and helps those of us hiring see more about you when we’re trying to whittle down all those applications into actual interviews. As someone said above, the first round of application reviews may not need the cover letter or even look at it, but those of us in the office that you would actually be working in will look at it. Good luck!

        2. Madeleine Matilda*

          A week is pretty standard in my agency and others. There are tight deadlines for hiring to be completed (OK tight for the Fed not for other places) and many steps to be done so often the application deadline is short. It could be short for other reasons such as they expect a large pool of applicants so want to limit the time to apply or they may even have someone in mind.

    6. Grits McGee*

      Current fed- my agency never looks at cover letters, but we hire internally 95% of the time and we’re terrible at it. Other agencies put much much more emphasis on cover letters, and won’t talk to you without one. It definitely never hurts to include one, and may really hurt if you don’t.

      Additional advice, based on what I’ve heard in my agency-
      -Go ahead and use the USA Jobs resume builder and make a 5 page monstrosity that lists every task you’ve ever done in your jobs.
      -Fill out the application early, in case they spring a ton free-response questions on you. (These used to be called KSAs, but I’m not sure if that’s still the correct terminology.)
      -When they ask you to rate your own skills, give yourself the highest rating possible (that you can feasibly defend).
      -When they ask you to justify a response using skills and experience in your resume, take the time to write everything out (even if it’s already spelled out in your resume). At least at my agency, this is how HR decides who to actually forward on to the list of candidates eligible for interview.
      -If you do get an offer, be prepared to wait foreeeeeeeever for the background check to come through. An acquaintance who was offered a job at Treasury last summer didn’t start until a week or two ago because the financial background check they do for Treasury hires dragged on for almost a year. Hopefully as the pandemic gets more under control, this will be less of an issue.

      Good luck! Go get that Treasury pay scale bump!

    7. Policy Wonk*

      Submit anything that demonstrates you meet a requirement. E.g., if it says you need to have one year of experience in X or at GS-Y, a fed would submit a relevant SF-50 to show that. You would probably include a resume that shows your experience. Be sure whatever is required is clear, as I have seen people get rejected because the requirement was a college degree or X years of experience – they didn’t include 20-year old college transcripts and the resume did not show that they had x years of experience in the required area.

      Yes, include a cover letter and resume, even if it isn’t required. The USAJobs info is needed by the HR people, but a hiring manager likes to see the brief resume rather than have to wade through the pages of printouts from the system.

      Good luck!

    8. Madeleine Matilda*

      Long time Fed and hiring manager here. When they say not to submit documents that don’t apply that usually means you don’t need to submit proof of registering for selective service if you are a woman or your SF-50 if you aren’t a Fed. I would include a recent performance appraisal and writing sample if it is being requested. There should be a contact listed in the announcement you could try to reach with these questions to make sure you include everything the agency expects. If you don’t include something it could eliminate your application from consideration without any review of your qualifications.

    9. Ariadne Oliver*

      Don’t bother with the cover letter. In my agency, they don’t make it to the hiring manager and our HR definitely doesn’t care. All we usually care about is the resume. Since you’re not already a federal employee, you will more than likely not have anything to attach.

  6. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    I’m having a hard time deciding something. I can get supervision through my job to gain my license to practice independently. However I’d have to work two more years at my job after that and I’m concerned that the extra workload of getting my hours might be a problem.
    I already work about 10 hours a day and am unable to do hobbies like gardening. Also since COVID has been receding, little annoying things are being added like babysitting at a picnic on Saturday for free.
    On the positive side I do have semi flexible hours, can go to the restroom and eat when I need to and there’s not a lot of racism in my department. I don’t know what to do.

    1. Falling Diphthong*

      After noting your user name, I’m shifting my advice:
      It sounds like you want out. So I would write out viable paths. Like:
      a) One year to get the license at zero cost, two years after that, then set up an independent shop.
      b) Apply widely to lateral moves to get out of this job. Then worry about licensure.
      c) Some other path to licensure.

      Is it the job or office that is crazy? Like, should you be trying to get a license? Is this what you want to do for decades to come? Is your office unusually bad, or par for the course of good/bad trait splits in the industry, or actually pretty good considering most other places that do this work? Do you enjoy this work?

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        The job is crazy because you’ll be chill and then there’ll be an emergency. I don’t know what I want to do for decades to come- I just started full time work two years ago, spent a lot of time in the “3 years experience required for entry level ” wilderness. It’s a split of goof and bad traits.

    2. TheCultureisStrong*

      well for one, babysitting?? Is this children? and is it directly related to your certification? are you exempt?

      Second, if you make it one year, is that year transferrable to another “supervisor” or does it have to be continuous? How hard is it to find a supervisor?

      third, once your employer knows you are asking them to sign off on your license, are they going to use this against you to extort more hours and babysitting?

    3. Ya Girl*

      How flexible are your hours if you’re working 50 hour weeks though? Going to the bathroom when you want does NOT count as flexible scheduling. I would definitely explore other options if you can without hurting your licensure!

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        It’s more flexible in that no one is really mad if I go to the doctor in the middle of the day or something.

    4. WellRed*

      Not sure why you are babysitting your will but wanted to point out that “not a lot of racism” is a pretty low bar on the grand scheme of what makes a workplace bearable,

      1. ThatGirl*

        so is “I can go to the bathroom when I want to” …. yeah, this sounds like a pretty lousy place to work.

        OP, not sure what your license is in, but there have got to be better places to get supervision.

        1. AspiringGardener*

          I have to imagine that there is a lot of context missing here regarding the role and industry, because this doesn’t make sense.

          1. JustaTech*

            If you’re working some place that requires coverage (like with children) it might be normal to have to call in a float if you need to go to the bathroom because of regulations about how many adults have to be in the room.

            But you should either have to do that for safety reasons or … not? Like, if there isn’t a legal or safety reason to not let you pee when you need to, then the company is bizarrely controlling.

        2. Stuckinacrazyjob*

          I was thinking of other options and the truth is that at the other options your caseload is so high ( like a hundred people) you might not have time to eat or pee. Also you have to be in an office. Technically I’m late every day, but nobody checks up. Here unless there’s an emergency, you can pretty much do what you want.

          And the people here are almost all black. Nobody gives me guff about my hair or makes fun if I slip into AAVE. Also for no reason they will increase my pay? Like today I got a call and my boss was like you get 2k more now. I have to look at salaries because I might not make as much other places.

          And sometimes my cases are chiller than they’d be other places. Like a bad session is that the children stole your crayon box again, not I’ve relasped and am now homeless…

    5. TWW*

      If the best things you can say about your job are you’re allowed to use the restroom and there’s only a little racism, it is not a job you will be happy stuck in for two years.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        I was thinking of other options and the truth is that at the other options your caseload is so high ( like a hundred people) you might not have time to eat or pee. Also you have to be in an office. Technically I’m late every day, but nobody checks up. Here unless there’s an emergency, you can pretty much do what you want.

        And the people here are almost all black. Nobody gives me guff about my hair or makes fun if I slip into AAVE. Also for no reason they will increase my pay? Like today I got a call and my boss was like you get 2k more now. I have to look at salaries because I might not make as much other places.

        And sometimes my cases are chiller than they’d be other places. Like a bad session is that the children stole your crayon box again, not I’ve relasped and am now homeless…

        1. TWW*

          How “stuck” would you be? Like if you wanted to leave before the two years was up how much money would it cost you?

          1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

            I’d have to reimburse them but I’m not sure how much that would be

            1. TWW*

              For me, that would be the critical piece of information before deciding anything. I would never sign an employment contract that I couldn’t afford to get out of.

      2. Mimi*

        Yes, this. I don’t know what field you’re working in, but “ten hour days, but there are bathroom breaks and only so-so racism” does not rate for my scale of what a good job looks like.

    6. Lindsay*

      I mean, if the only positives to your job are they let you use the bathroom….that’s pretty sad, really.

    7. BookJunkie315*

      Based on the information you have provided, I’m going to take a wild guess that you are a social worker or adjacent field. I recommend starting the licensure process, getting the supervision at your current job, tracking hours, etc., while also applying for new jobs. Always get paid for your job search if possible! Social work will never be easy, especially in these times, but working for the best possible agency and coworkers really make all the difference.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        That’s true. I am social work adjacent- I don’t actually have a social work degree and some companies are strict about that.

        1. AspiringGardener*

          Why are you doing free babysitting? Or is it somehow related to your caseload and considered part of your core job description /salary?

          1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

            Like this other department will have classes or events for the parents, but then we have to babysit the kids and it’s like stranger ass kids I’ve never met. It’s maybe every few months but always annoys me because I’m bad at babysitting.

            1. ThatGirl*

              My husband has an LPC. There are many, many places to get supervision for an LPC that do not require you to pay them back if you don’t stay, or are better working environments than the low bar of “not that racist”. Yes, some of them may require you to deal with more serious problems, but if that’s the career path you want to take, counselors have to deal with all sorts of mental health issues along the way….

              1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

                I think I’m not emotionally prepared for the guilt. With hundreds of clients, you’re not going to be able to serve then well and with these extreme cases, there will be deaths. I’ve only had one death on my caseload in two years. And I’m not talking about a white person’s understanding of racist where they say n word n word. I’m talking from a black perspective so yea not that racist is a higher bar than you’d think.

                1. ThatGirl*

                  Well, fair enough, I’m not Black so I’ll trust you on that.

                  That said – it depends what kind of work you want to do long-term. LPCs can work in a variety of environments from EAP providers to universities to psychiatric facilities to private practice providers. Some of those are lower stress than others, but my husband’s worked at a university counseling center for a decade and never had a client death. And his caseload is higher than it should be, but it’s not in the hundreds! There are options out there for you, and I would encourage you to look into them. (BTW, if you are interested in working for a university counseling center, I know that non-white counselors are very much in demand in many cities.)

  7. that's no fun*

    I’m disappointed my boss won’t allow me to stand up for myself against a client, or, you know, stand up for me. The client is difficulty to deal with and in the past 5 years has never had a good relationship with anyone at the company I work for.

    My instructions right now are to mail the products and apologize when the client calls and complaints. That’s it. We know they will complain. We know the product is fine. Rinse and repeat. I’ve been their direct contact for a year and it’s been constant this entire time. But to me, there’s a difference between complaining and abuse and I find the client abusive.

    I was recently berated by the client. To the client, I am (and this is nearly a quote) full of excuses, inappropriate, never own my mistakes, dismissive, rude, sloppy, embarrassing, alienating, unprofessional, and have a poor work standard.

    What did I do? I had apologized repeatedly over the course of 4 weeks on multiple calls concerning a product the client felt the quality was lacking on. Basically, we produced a teapot and they always have glitter in the glaze for decoration. The client didn’t like how one bit of glitter looked on the bottom of the teapot. And after apologizing extensively, I made the severe mistake of pointing out that while I was very sorry for the mistake, that speckle wasn’t detrimental to the product and there would be no future impact on the teapot’s ability to hold water.

    I could see not allowing me to stand my ground and enforce that that behavior is unacceptable if we valued them as a continued client, but we don’t. Our contract is ending and neither the client nor the company I work for have any interest in attempting to renegotiate. There’s also the argument that we don’t want our reputation smeared by them—except I’ve been forwarded emails on accident showing that they’re already publicly trash talking the company I work for.

    Why CAN’T I say that I find that kind of reply excessive and unwarranted? Why WON’T my boss reply and say they disagree?

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      Why escalate a situation that is already ridiculous? Your boss and everyone else knows that the client is in the wrong, so what they say doesn’t matter. What would arguing with them prove or solve? You are never going to get this client to agree that you are right or get an apology or get them to not be absurd. So your boss has the right of it — don’t engage, don’t take it personally, regard the client as the kook they are — all the more so because the relationship is going to end soon.

      1. that's no fun*

        I wasn’t viewing it as arguing or trying to prove something, I suppose. Part of the reason I’ve spent 4 weeks repeatedly apologizing about the same matter is because we’ve avoiding having any kind of conversation with them. If I complained endlessly about a problem and was never met with a conversation about why the problem happened and how it would be managed in the future, that would feel incredibly unproductive. I was trying to manage their expectations in the hope that they’d stop bothering me about the same issue.

        It’s true though what you say about “why bother.” Not engaging isn’t working to stop the complaints, as they were already constantly complaining, but not engaging is a good way to prevent the personal attacks.

        1. LadyByTheLake*

          I don’t think anything is going to stop the personal attacks — with this kind of person trying to argue with them or defend yourself usually escalates them and makes the attacks worse. If this were going to be an ongoing relationship though I would advocate for being able to say, “You cannot speak to me that way, I am going to end this conversation now.” And then you end the call. Many reputable call centers have that sort of script and hang up for when customers become abusive.

        2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          There are some people (coworkers, customers, family members) who will just. never. be. happy. Their entire personality is tied up in complaining, feeling put-upon or slighted, etc. As you’ve seen, it’s not personal – they’re going to complain about whoever is in your chair.

          You can’t win with them, and the only productive thing to do is ignore their complaints. They are still paying your company money, after all. For yourself, you have to cultivate a sense of Zen. Don’t respond to the tirades if at all possible. If you’re stuck in a phone call, answer blandly: “Mm-hmm. OK. We’ll do that.” Etc.

        3. Kes*

          I mean, it sounds like they’ve been a client for a while though and your company probably already has tried everything and has found nothing works and the approach that minimizes it the most is to not engage, or engage as little as possible. It might not seem like a good solution but it might still be the least bad solution, especially since at this point it sounds like your company is just trying to minimize interactions and get through to the end of having to deal with them.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      The next time the client calls to berate you, can you offer to have them speak with your manager? I’m 99% sure this client is calling just because they are a monster and enjoy abusing people and they continue to do it because they are allowed to. If they ask (prompted by you) to talk to your manager, then you are doing a good job by fulfilling that request. Then let your manager experience the customer first hand.

      1. that's no fun*

        It’s funny because they actually already talk to my manager. I’m put on blast, apologize, and then they go to my manager. The “don’t engage, just apologize” used to be a method to get them to stop calling so many people on my end, because my boss very much didn’t want to be bothered. But if they’re already doing that…

        1. Malarkey01*

          Not defending the client because they are ridiculous but it does sound like they have a point about all you do is apologize (which ISN’T your fault that’s literally what you’re instructed to do) but from a client perspective that can be so frustrating.
          Maybe reframing it as “the client AND I am being jerked around by my managements refusal to actually resolve these issues” would help to not take it personally. You may also be able to say “I understand your frustration and that you aren’t happy with the product. However the contract is ending and my hands are tied here. I’m not sure what I can do but am open to suggestions”. That’s not confrontational and factual.

          1. I'm just here for the cats*

            But it sounds like the customer is being nit-picky. Like he doesn’t like that a piece of glitter is out of place but the teapot looks perfectly fine and is usable. There probably isn’t anything they can do to fix the issue for the client because he has a perfectly usable teapot.

            I wonder. is he asking for anything in particular or is he just calling and complaining.

        2. Beth*

          If your boss takes the stance of “I don’t want to be bothered by the horrible client who abuses my employee, so I’ll get out of the client’s way and give them a free field for abuse”, then you have a boss problem as well as a client problem. Your boss sucks.

    3. Ashley*

      At some point during this I would have asked the boss to start taking the calls when they get the abusive point. It is one thing to tow the company line, but it is another thing for you to take the abuse and the public relations ding personally. I would say you could ask your boss about this but be prepared to spend any capital you have. If you are friendly with another manager or higher up you could ask them if you have previously asked your boss the why questions with no help. But the approach should be trying to understand the company perspective more then questioning it most likely.

      1. that's no fun*

        This is a good point. It may help me a lot in the long run to try and re-frame things myself. Why question a process that it already too much for everyone involved??

    4. LKW*

      You’re understandably taking this way too personally. This is a complainer. He complains. It’s what makes him feel better, bigger, stronger. If he’s not asking for discounts, and he continues to give you orders, then this is what your company has decided is an adequate trade off. As long as this client remains profitable, this will continue. Now, you could up the antics with this guy – offer to discipline the team for bad glitter distribution, burst into apoplectic tears, tell him that you hope one day your company can meet his exacting standards. But I don’t think it worth it. I’d say grin like the Cheshire Cat, and work in some new phrases that might catch him off guard – I’m sure this crowd can think of a few.
      – Well, I’m so disappointed that we didn’t make the cake rise to the occasion.
      – Goodness, I’m going to recommend the team go swimming with rocks in their pockets they did so poorly!
      – I can hear the disappointment in your voice and it’s like listening to sad songs on the radio.

      I’m saying – find a way to say I’m sorry in seventeen different ways to entertain yourself.

      1. Law Office Anon*

        Every law office has this client. Every single one. It’s not personal, they just act like this. The only way to deal with it is to cash their checks and move on with your life. The client where I currently work is so bad, we have a [Client Name] Threat Level Warning System. He will call, I answer, then I put [Client Name] on hold and give my boss my assessment of [Client Name’s] current Threat Level. “It’s [Client Name], seems like he’s at orange. Good luck.”

        Really, OP, don’t take it personally. These clients aren’t reacting to you or your work or your company. They’d be like this with anyone. They’re taking out their emotional crap on the person who has to take it and that happens to be you, but it is not about you. If it helps, while he’s yelling, repeat to yourself, “This is not about me. He is sad, his behavior is sad and it’s not about me.” I’m not saying you need to feel bad for him, but it is sad for a grown adult to behave that way. It certainly helps me to remember that my life is way better than [Client Name’s] if only because I have the emotional regulation of an adult.

    5. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

      How about “I am sorry the product was not to your standard” on repeat to every statement? And when they get abusive or direct comments at you, say “I am sorry, I need to end this call” and hang up? I had management that told us we were not allowed to be combative, but we were allowed to hang up on anyone that was. I feel like you should be allowed to do so once you get through the initial “I am sorry the product was not to your standard” response.

    6. Momma Bear*

      Can it just be perfunctory as in “We recognize that you were not wholly satisfied with this teapot and apologize for confusion with the design process. As has been pointed out on x and y occasion, this glitter has no impact on your teapot’s ability to hold water.” Then have no further discussion. The contract is over. There is a point with some people where they will never be happy, no matter how much you scrape and bow and flog yourself. So don’t. Your company has no interest in working with them again so just move on. Personal attacks may persist and you may just need to ignore them until they get tired of it. It is normal to want to defend oneself, but that doesn’t always help. State your case once (unemotionally as possible/professionally). Be a gray rock.

      Who forwarded the emails? Does your boss know? You might also talk to HR since the client trashing the company is beyond just making you the scapegoat about all of it. I do think your boss throwing you under the bus is poor form. The manager should be protecting you from this client, IMO. He’s allowing your professional reputation to be trashed. He’s a coward.

    7. LizM*

      Do you have to answer their phone call?

      Could you start sending emails at 5:30 pm that say “Sorry I missed your call today, the day got away from me. Tomorrow is pretty busy too, so here’s the info you asked for in an email…”

    8. I'm just here for the cats*

      OMG I’ve dealt with these types of clients in my last job. In one instance the corner of the inside page was wrinked. Not even very badly. They had a fit and demanded an entire case of books for free because one page in one book was bent. oh and they didn’t want to send the “ruined” book back.
      I feel really badly for you and I wish your manager would have your back. You shouldn’t have to go through this type of treatment for 4 weeks. Does your boss realize how badly the client is treating you, and what they are saying online?

    9. I'm just here for the cats*

      Forgot to add to my original post. You should be able to say ” Client this is the 5th week you have called to complain about this particular issue. I understand that you are frustrated and feel that this is unfair and that you want X. However, we have explained several times that X is not possible because our teapots are hand painted there is sometimes going to be variations in the way the glitter lays. This does not cause any damage to the teapot, which is totally usuable and within our desging specs. We cannot keep having this same conversation. Besides this issue is there anything else that I can help you with. Please do not berate me I am following our standard procedures. Let me get you to my manager.”

      I know you said that you were supposed to apologize and not engage. It sounds like because the guy was wanting to speak to a manager too many times. But obviously that is not going to work. I think your manager needs to step up and explain to the guy giving reasons and shut this down. Like, how much longer is left on their contract? would the company be open to closing the contract early? If I was the manager, and I had the authority I would say something like ‘I’m sorry you are disappointed in your teapot. As we have discussed several times there can be slight variations. This does not cause any problems to the teapot’s function and falls in line with industry standards. Since you keep contacting us about this problem, And there is no resolution, I wonder if you would like to close your contract with us early. We would not charge you any early cancelation fees , and this would give you the option to move on.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      I think you need a new boss. Seriously.

      Why do they keep this client? Are they that hard up for money?
      Really, the appropriate answer here is to tell the client to take their business elsewhere. Your boss is spineless.

      So assuming you have to stay put at the job, what I would do is ask if this client can be put on rotation so that others take a turn. I am envisioning a 3 or 6 month rotation. Or inform the boss that you will be passing the calls to the boss because it is tying up too much of your time and taking away from your other work.

      If he actually points out to you that it has been this way for years and the client has burned through every employee there, then ask, “If this is the case, then why keep this person? Maybe something should be done to let the client seek out another firm because clearly they are not happy with our service.”

      As an aside- to me no paycheck is worth this level of derogation. Basic human decency has to be in place.

    11. CheeseWhizzard*

      You have a boss problem, not a client problem. Bad clients are common; this is entirely on your boss. Good bosses do not allow clients to abuse their staff. They stand up for their people and they take responsibility for their team’s work. To quote Alison: your boss sucks and he’s not going to change.

    12. Wendy*

      I worked at a client site for my previous employer back from 2006 to 2012.

      I worked as a visitor parking attendant at a university that is located in the city where I live. I was assigned to work in the visitor parking booth that was located roughly 75 feet from the visitor parking garage and 50 feet from the faculty/staff garage. My responsibilities were to inform visitors of the parking fee, where to pay for their parking, and to make sure there were enough parking spots for guests arriving at the university because various departments reserved parking spots for their guests to parking in visitor parking.

      My former employer, a parking company, had a contract with the university. I reported to 2 managers, the manager who worked for my former employer, who was over the account, and the Director of Parking and Transportation services.

      During the spring of 2011 the Director of Parking and Transportation services told me that the university was going to renovate the visitor parking garage and that visitor parking would be moved to the first level of the faculty/staff garage. There was a call box located at the entrance gate of that garage as well as at the exit gate of that garage. The Director of Parking and Transportation services told me that in addition to my main duties, I was supposed to prevent anyone from pressing the call button at either gate once visitor parking was moved to the faculty/staff garage because, according to her, she and her 2 staff members were too busy to answer those calls. She did not want another department or another employee at the university answering those calls.

      There were problems with this because I could not do all of my assigned duties plus prevent anyone from pressing either call button. The Director of Parking and Transportation services or one of her 2 staff members would get calls from either call box, and would then transfer the call to me. When I would tell them that I was currently with a customer, I was told the leave the visitor parking booth and assist the customer. I would then receive a phone call from one of them reminding me of what I was supposed to do.

      I wanted to tear my hair out.

      The 2 solutions the manager over the account came up with were to 1) build a bridge with the Director of Parking and Transportation services be getting to know her by talking on the phone with her and 2) make a spiel I could use with my customers to free up time so I could assist customers at either gate. I had no idea how to build a bridge with the Director of Parking and Transportation services. The spiel that my manager gave me did not improve things either because I would still get call from the Director of Parking and Transportation services or from one of her 2 staff members informing me that there is someone at one of the gates needing help as well as another call reminding me of what I was supposed to do.

      My former employer wanted to keep the client happy because the client was paying them a Huge amount of money.

  8. Interview questions re: benefits*

    I currently work for a great company but they lack one essential component that just won’t change – flexibility on remote work. I will likely be looking for another job next year and although I’ve been reading AMA for the last 8 years, I still have a couple of interview related questions!

    My questions mostly stem around asking point-blank about some benefits. For example:

    I currently get 5 weeks of PTO which is a ton of vacation time for the US and the companies I would apply to have unlimited PTO. Is it appropriate to ask about vacation culture and paid time off in the initial interview as well as with the hiring manager, basically asking if it’s acceptable to take off 5 weeks of vacation per year with this unlimited policy?

    Another question I’d like to ask is about remote work. Some positions say “opportunity for working remote” but they have an office where I live. Can I negotiate and get in writing remote work terms? I would hate to sign up for a new job where I have to be in the office just because I live in the same city as one is located. 

    1. Momma Bear*

      IMO, get whatever the remote work situation is upfront, in writing. I had a job offer that specifically listed 3 days remote and 2 days in, plus all other days which required my in-person presence (like a client meeting). It’s legit to ask about the work/life balance when you are at the negotiation stage. Unlimited time off is not so great if you can never take it. I might not ask about the PTO right out of the gate, but definitely by the time you start talking compensation.

    2. Public Sector Manager*

      I’m a government employee (state) and even before COVID, we’ve had many applicants ask: “what’s your office’s policy on remote work?” That’s not an odd question to ask during an interview. Asking about PTO is better saved when they are ready to make you an offer, especially because if they come back with something you don’t like on the PTO, you have a lot of leverage to negotiate a better deal for yourself when you are their pick for the job.

  9. V*

    I am a final semester MA student who just got an interview for my dream job after graduation…..my retail job wouldn’t let me change my shift to do the interview, so I just quit. Now I’m afraid I won’t get the dream job…or any job again and feel super nervous, and this is basically a “please sent me good vibes” post.

    1. JelloStapler*

      You’ll get a new job again at some point, even if it’s not this one- but sending you great vibes for the dream job!!

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      Sending vibes toward the dream job. And toward being free to aggressively pursue employment in your field without negotiating with your retail job.

    3. Cowgirlinhiding*

      I had to do this to attend my Senior project presentation. It forced me to look from something fast. I found a temp job at the school I was attending that turned into full time and a career. Sometimes that push is all you need. Good luck with interview! Use all of the suggestions and practice questions Allison has here. You will do great!

    4. LKW*

      You will totally get a new job. I was once fired and already had a job lined up and I still remember panicking the day after the firing. You’ll be ok and you will get through this.

      Your retail manager sucks btw. So short sighted.

      1. Mental Lentil*

        Yep. Now instead of finding someone to cover one shift, they have to find someone to cover all the shifts.

    5. Not A Manager*

      I think you might feel better if you immediately applied for a few short-term type jobs similar to the retail one. I am sending you very very good vibes and I’m sure you’ll get a job after graduation even if it’s not this exact one. But you might feel less anxious if you know you have a plan for a bridge job if you need it for a bit.

      1. Esmeralda*

        And you’re likely to find something fast. Retail, restaurants, are having a hard time finding staff.

    7. Unkempt Flatware*

      You sure will find something and this will be just a blip on your timeline. In fact, you’ll likely look back and go, “that’s right mo-fos!”. Trust yourself and believe in yourself. You’re a champ.

    8. Observer*

      Whether you get this job or not, you’ll get something. Quitting a garbage retail job that won’t allow you any sort of schedule flexibility is not going to keep you from ever getting another job again.

    9. I'm just here for the cats*

      Good vibes comming your way. And even if you don’t get this job, an you need another retail type job as a filler, You can probably find another retail type job until something in your field comes through.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      Many good vibes. For a lot of retailers their employee retention plan consists of making the employees feel they can never work elsewhere. It’s a ploy, a technique to keep people locked in to their crappy jobs. You know a job has nothing going on when they have to stoop this low.
      Chin up, keep going. You will make it. Alison issues all kinds of warnings about dream jobs. So while you are waiting on this look around and see if something else looks like a good fit. This will help fill up your brain and your time while dream job processes what they need to process.

    12. Arthur Dent*

      Sending good vibes! Sometimes things like this are the push we need to look at things from another perspective

  10. Lower East Pubnico*

    I just got a rejection for an internal posting that I thought I was well-qualified for. I know the hiring manager and my work is pretty public, so it’s hard not to feel like it’s personal or a judgement of the work I’m currently doing. And this department semi-regularly asks for my help because I’ve got a skill they don’t have, and the snarky side of me wants to say, if you needed my help, maybe you should have hired me.

    Any tips for gracefully handling an internal rejection and moving past it?

    1. MMMMMmmmmMMM*

      Remember, its not always about you! You could be a rock star, and there might have been someone who was just better.

      To quote Picard: “It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose.”

      1. Ashley*

        Or they were looking for a some other skill they didn’t bother to list in the posting. At best you could ask, what could I do to be a stronger candidate next time a position like this comes open?

        1. HigherEdAdminista*

          Or they have a person in mind for the position, and they knew if they put you in the interview group and didn’t hire you it could a) cause more bad blood or b) raise questions with others about the hiring process if they candidate they hire isn’t as qualified.

      2. LQ*

        I don’t think it’s always a matter of “better” either, sometimes it’s just different. It can be that there is a wide skill gap that you can’t see that they think the new person will accomplish. Especially if you are internal and can be borrowed for some of the work with the skill you have occasionally but the new person brings a skill that’s entirely missing.

        1. Princess Pretty Pants*

          I was wondering this as well, if they feel they can rely on you where you are now but add other skills through a new person. Sorry to hear you didn’t get it, been there, not easy but you get past it. You may even look back in time and see how it was good you didn’t get it…

    2. wannabe job hopper?*

      Even if you want to stay put, job hunt. For me, it would make me feel better about my situation to see other options are out there. So sorry it didn’t work out, I would also be really irritated about them asking for my expertise but refusing to hire me for the job.

      1. Lower East Pubnico*

        Thanks, I think this is a good suggestion. Not that I’m going to flounce out right now, but in case this is a situation where I have to look outside to get an opportunity to advance.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      The snarky side of *me* thinks they might have said “We could bring on LEP to glaze our teapots, or we could hire this new person as a teapot glazer and we’d still get LEP’s help when we need it, so it’s a win/win!” And the petty side of me would occasionally be too busy when they need help in the future. (In other words, no, I have no tips for handling this gracefully.)

      2. A Simple Narwhal*

        “In other words, no, I have no tips for handling this gracefully.”

        Ha amazing, this made me laugh :-D

        1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

          I was thinking the same thing is extremely likely. This way they get the new person and a quarter (or whatever the time commitment is) of the OP… Internal moves almost always have a lot of politics that go with them.

      3. Lower East Pubnico*

        Ha! Thanks for the laugh. It does help just to know that other people would have the same reaction here.

    4. Blue Eagle*

      Being that it was an internal transfer, would you be up for touching base with the hiring manager to indicate your interest should the position come up again as a prelude to asking what skills you need to develop that would make you the #1 candidate for the position. Then see what the hiring manager has to say. And hopefully the feedback will help you move past the frustration that you are feeling.

      1. SomebodyElse*

        Agreed with this. You have absolutely everything to gain by reaching out to the Hiring Manager and thanking them for their consideration, asking to be kept in mind for future opportunities, and asking if there are any skills they can recommend that you build in the interim. You may just hear there was something unrelated to your skills that caused them to go in a different direction

        My last hiring decision came down to:
        A. Former employee hoping to come back- Good reputation and knowledge of the job
        B. Current employee from another dept who is really sharp and has a great reputation
        C. Outside candidate – Skills and experience I was looking for

        Any one of them would have been a good choice, (It was the first time I’ve seen a hiring panel totally split on candidates, usually one stands out among the rest as the favorite) but I went with the outside candidate because I wanted a fresh perspective in the role. It was a bit of a leap of faith, but I’m glad I made the choice that I did. That doesn’t mean that there was something wrong with the other two or their performance.

        1. Lower East Pubnico*

          This is good advice. I think I first need to process the disappointment a bit first, because I definitely don’t feel up to reaching out right now without any bitterness showing through. At the moment, I don’t feel like reaching out to this person asking for anything like help or a favour! So any wording suggestions would be appreciated!

          1. SomebodyElse*

            Totally get the processing time, and I should have mentioned that as well.

            How’s a variation of this:

            Hiring Mgr,

            I wanted to take a quick moment to thank you for the opportunity to apply to the position. I understand that while I wasn’t the right candidate at this time for the role, I would like to be considered for future opportunities that you may have. In the interim, do you have any advice you wouldn’t mind sharing for areas I should consider for my professional development? I’d be happy to set up time for us to chat.

    5. Roaring Twentysomething*

      I went through that recently!

      Take some time to process—rant to your partner, family, therapist, pets, houseplants…talking it out can help sort through your emotions. Obviously keep this at home!

      After you’ve vented, I’d dig into why you applied to this position. What about it attracted you? Is your current role simply unbearable or were you excited at the prospect of specific responsibilities? Consider what you know you DON’T want as well. You might find the internal role wasn’t quite right after all. You might affirm that it was perfect for you. Either way, use that to fuel your next steps.

      Keep developing your skills, keep a decent relationship with that department—your work is clearly valued! They might appreciate an inquiry on what skills to develop if another role becomes available. Working well with the department even after you’ve been rejected is a sign of maturity.

      It stings, though! I feel your pain.

    6. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

      You don’t mention your current manager, but another reason could be because in order to pull from another team the hiring manager would have had to have asked your current manager and gotten their approval. Before you get mad at the other team, are you sure your current manager didn’t block the transfer?

      1. Lower East Pubnico*

        No, they wouldn’t need to have my current manager’s approval for a transfer.

    7. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I am planning on applying for an internal promotion as soon as it’s posted (which should be this next week but who knows), and under the notion of “plan for the worst,” have already been mentally writing my “Can we have a discussion about where Red’s path goes from here, since my understanding was that we were all on the same page as far as career progression and that this seemed to be the logical next step, but if that’s not the case, can we get on the same page and figure out what steps I can take to better position myself for whatever the next step should be” meeting request for my boss (who really wants me to get the promotion) and grandboss (who is the hiring manager for it). Is a meeting of that nature, either with the hiring manager or your current manager (or both?) an option that might be useful to you?

    8. MPH Researcher*

      As a hiring manager, here’s what I recommend you do: Send a gracious e-mail to the hiring manager thanking them for considering you and asking what you could do to be a stronger candidate in the future. This will help keep your reputation high in the office (Managers chat with each other about internal hires!), and keep that manager thinking of you fondly in case other positions open up. Something like:

      “Thank you for considering me for the teapot salesman position. I appreciated the opportunity to interview with you and the team. I really enjoyed learning more about selling teapots and would love to be considered for any future openings you may have. Do you have any suggestions for skills I could work on to be a stronger candidate in the future?”

      As far as moving past it, as others have mentioned feel free to start a casual job search. Even if you don’t want to leave your current company, you never know what’s out there until you look. It will probably also help you feel better to have some control over your future. Even if you feel like being snarky or kind of down because of this rejection, try not to let that show at work. People do not perceive “sore losers” in a positive light.

      1. Lower East Pubnico*

        Thanks for the script! I need to process the disappointment a bit first, because right now I don’t feel like reaching out, but this is good wording.

    9. fhqwhgads*

      It doesn’t mean you’re not good. It just means they thought someone else was better.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        And that could be “better by a very slim margin”.

        The last two hirings our board did we could have done a coin toss. Both candidates were equally great.
        In the last round the difference was that it appeared one candidate might stay with us for a while, and the other candidate probably would not. The latter candidate had huge talent and fantastic creativity. Someone will hire her for sure.

        Brace yourself that their assessment could be CORRECT. I went right up to the wire on a job. This job was SO ME. It had my name all over it. Even the pres of the board was incredulous as she told me someone else got the job. Then she explained why. The other person had done X professionally. While I had plenty of experience with X, it was just personal experience. That professional experience swayed the board and they voted for the other candidate. I did not agree with the logic involved there but that was not important. The important part for me was I could actually see why they went the way they did. And surprisingly, that gave me huge relief. I did not lose out to The Three Stooges. I lost out to someone who was a super star in their own right. I decided I could live with that.

    10. Leah K.*

      If helping this department is not necessarily a part of your job and more like a thing you did to be a team player, I would become a lot less available next time they need your help.

    11. Alice Quinn*

      I am going through this exact same issue this week! What’s helping me is keeping in mind that the hiring manager is looking for the best available candidate. That doesn’t mean you’re not a great candidate – it just means that someone else was a better fit or possibly had some qualifications you didn’t. I think accepting an internal rejection with grace is probably even more important than an external rejection because you never know what opportunities will be available in the future.

      I’m sorry it didn’t work out – and I understand the disappointment. Just don’t let it turn into bitterness.

    12. Momma Bear*

      Since you know the hiring manager well, it’s worth meeting with them re: what others have mentioned. It could simply have been that this other person has your skills AND… Could also be that management has a long-term goal they have not divulged and decided they needed x instead of y. I’d try not to take it too personally at this point. Just keep being valuable to the company and keep looking for opportunities.

  11. GarlicMicrowaver*

    Is it OK to not want to manage people, ever, and still grow in your career? Maybe the question is… is it unrealistic? The thought of managing someone, mentoring them and hand-holding them seems very daunting to me. I will say that MAYBE it is something I would be open to down the line, but I have a crazy toddler and a crazy enough job as it is. Thoughts?

    1. V*

      No advice, just me completely relating to this. I just don’t want to be a leader, even if it means earning less over my career. It is not something that suits my introverted personality at all.

      1. violet04*

        I’ve been working for 20 years and I have no desire to be a manager. I work in software development and right now I’m Product Owner / Team Coach because my company is doing agile.

        1. ecnaseener*

          Does the “Team Coach” part of that not involve managing people? Or is it more project management type thing

      2. The Real Persephone Mongoose*

        Being a leader and being a people manager are two different things. I had this discussion with my first boss at current company when I was interviewing for a position on his team. He was aghast that I didn’t have any designs on being a PM. I explained that it’s possible to be a strong leader without being a manager. I was his second in command for 8 years and happy as a clam. I continue to be second in command. But I am a strong leader. I just don’t have to do reviews!

    2. Nabuma Rubberband*

      I feel the exact same way. I see that my peers are all getting manager jobs now, and I really, REALLY don’t want to be a manager.

      I think that some industries have “Principal” career paths for people who want to continue to advance without taking the management track, which is great! We don’t all need to be managers, and based on 80% of the managers I have had, most of us shouldn’t.

    3. ATX*

      I work for a large company and there are tons of people who stay in an analyst role for their entire career. I think it’s fine! Managing people is not for everyone, and it’s a lot of work that’s not fun (speaking from experience :)).

    4. DistantAudacity*

      Sure – you can grow towards being for instance a subject matter expert.

      I don’t know your field, obviously, but an SME of some sort (technical/industry/client whisperer/whatever) can lead to all sorts of interesting things. You may get more responsibility, but it would be domain-related, and not managing people.

    5. RagingADHD*

      It entirely depends on your industry and the career tracks available. Some industries have more room for continued advancement as an individual contributor or subject-matter expert. In others, you’ll need to take on a leadership role in order to get raises or show growth, and avoiding management will mean you “top out” at a junior level with limited prospects for pay and benefit increases.

      At some point, everybody reaches a level where they are content long-term and enough is enough. Does your industry offer a path to that point for you?

    6. 867-5309*

      Career growth is a challenge for individual contributors in many (most?) industries.

      Microsoft is one company that has high regard for senior individual roles and they allow remote work, so consider it on an employer-by-employer basis. Consulting is another option though usually when done for another company, at some point they expect you to manage client relationships, business development and retention, which to me are worse than managing a team. :)

    7. The Prettiest Curse*

      Yup, it’s totally fine. I have no desire to be a manager (of people – I’m fine with managing events) and my work life has been fine. I think that managing is so difficult to get right that you shouldn’t do it unless you’re totally certain that it’s what you want to do.

      1. Grace Poole*

        I totally agree. I have zero interest in managing people.

        And the tricky thing is that thoughtful people who realize that management is a skill and a lot of work don’t want to be managers. Many ladder climbers who want the better title and the extra salary, but who might be terrible at the job, are the ones to strive for it.

        1. KoiFeeder*

          I mean, I know that management is a skill that takes work, but I’d be a truly terrible manager anyways! That’s why I know it’s a skill. ;p

    8. JelloStapler*

      I’ve been in a position that managed people and I decided I am not sure I want to do it again.

    9. Noncompliance Officer*

      Management is a skill and calling just like any other career. The mistake many companies make is when the only path “up” is management. If someone is an awesome llama-groomer, wants to move up, but doesn’t have great management skills, a lot of companies will shoe-horn them into the chief llama-groomer role instead of building a path for them grow some other way. This is why we have so many awful managers.

    10. LKW*

      Yes, it’s totally fine – but it may mean that you have to move jobs on occasion and you have to drive to keep your skills up to date and it may mean that your salary level doesn’t rise as far as if you took management positions.

      One thing to note – as your career grows – so do the careers of the people you manage. So while you may initially manage people who are pretty junior and have to do a bit more hand holding – as you move up the ladder – you manage the people who are managing others. You’re managing the managers.

      But yes, if you’re not interested in managing there are plenty of places that just want do-ers.

    11. LQ*

      It is absolutely ok! I think that it feels not ok because the people most likely to complain/demand more are people who WANT to be promoted, so companies/bosses often will feel like that is the thing they need to address. (I know my org is doing a lot of this. Everyone it seems wants to be promoted, but no one is acknowledging that that’s just not possible. You can’t have a company with 500 CEOs and no one working. But that’s what the senior leadership is saying can totes happen. 100% of mid level leadership is promoted from within so it’s not like no one ever gets promoted…)

      It always seems to leave people who either right now, or for always, just like their job and want to do well and be done and have a life and hobbies. Most managers know and support this, but weirdly I think organizations seem to not know this.

    12. Law Office Anon*

      My brother started working at [major tech company] when it had 8 employees. He’s a senior vice president now, but he’s never managed anyone. He likes programming, he’s good at it, he helped develop the backbone of the code 20 years ago that’s still in use today and they’re happy to give him new titles and better pay occasionally to keep him around. He’s said that if he’s ever required to manage, he’ll quit. He has no interest in managing anyone, ever.

      So, yes, it can be done, but your opportunities for advancement will be more limited and will depend much more on your knowledge and abilities in what you do.

    13. Public Sector Manager*

      I promoted to supervisor in 2010 and manager in 2013, and although I really wanted to be a manager and supervisor and move up that career chain, I do miss my old position and the freedom I had. Not wanting to manage others is a thing, and I wouldn’t fault anyone who doesn’t want to manage because managing people can be the least of your concerns. Just this week, while the overall work of my team is relatively slow, I’ve had to deal with two personnel issues, a surprise audit asking for records, a request from an outside vendor that they just had to have resolve right this second (with no apparent reason and a C-Suite who told them “no problem!”), and one of the supervisor’s working for me, who is normally kind, thoughtful, and secure, just go completely off the rails. So today, I really wish I could be in my old job and just worried about what was assigned to me.

      You can definitely grow your career to a point without being a manager or supervisor. But a lot of that will depend on who is managing you and what opportunities they will let you have. Remember, a lot of managers and supervisors want to further grow their career too and they might take opportunities that would be great for you and give it to themselves.

      One of the senior people on my team has never wanted to promote. I continue to give her unique assignments and projects she likes because she’s a great employee and that’s one way I can show her she’s valued. But she’s on my team now because her prior manager in our office took credit for her work, never let her do the things she wanted to do, and she felt trapped. So it’s a mixed bag.

      Best of luck and I hope you can make it work!

    14. Wry*

      If it’s OK with you, then it’s OK, as far as I’m concerned. I understand, of course, that in some industries or companies you can’t advance past a certain level without moving into management, and that some people assume management is something everyone aspires to, and therefore might try to pressure you into it or make you feel like your goals aren’t valid. All I can really say is that your own self-awareness is more important than others’ perceptions. We’re all entitled to our own goals. We’re also entitled to change our minds about our goals. If right now you’re not interested in management, I wouldn’t give it another thought.

      I feel I’m in a similar place, in that I enjoy my role as an individual contributor and I’m not convinced I’m well-suited to management personality-wise or that I would enjoy it. I suspect that the stress would not be worth whatever extra money I would make (I don’t know how much managers at my company make but I’m in a low-paying industry). I’m in my fifth year with my company and I’m in the highest-level non-manager position in my department (individual contributor with “senior” in my title). I’m very happy with this for now, and in the future I think I’d be more likely to pursue a lateral move, explore a different area of my industry, or try out a new industry entirely rather than moving into management. All this is to say, you’re certainly not alone.

    15. The Real Persephone Mongoose*

      I’ve been working in corporate America for 30 years now and have never been a people manager. I’ve adamantly refused to even consider it. The closest I’ve come is to take on the bit of admin work that comes with managing a vendor team. My career has done just fine with it. I’ve also found that as I get older, I have more time so I can expand into some pseudo management activities. I onboard new employees, mentor them and grow them. I have an excellent track record and many of my fledglings are doing great. But I continue to refuse a people manager role. I can be a leader without being a manager. I like the latitude and flexibility my IC role offers me. Sure….I COULD be a PM and my career would go further, but I’m happy where I am right now. If you don’t want to do it right now, don’t. Maybe in the future, you will change your mind. Children grow up giving you more time. You grow in place as much as you can and feel like you want a new challenge. Assess how you feel if the opportunity comes up. If it feels right, do it. If it doesn’t, pass.

    16. Momma Bear*

      Yes. At an old company, we infamously had a guy who was the top SME on llamas, but did NOT ever want to be a manager. The company wisely prioritized his expertise over making him be a manager. I’ve also seen where people step up into management, decide it’s not their path, and step down into a technical role. I would look for ways to grow your skills so that you are valued for the work vs encouraged into management you don’t want to do.

    17. Not So NewReader*

      It’s okay not to want to manage people.
      And it’s okay to recognize where your load limits are. My theory is we can only give so much of ourselves and then we are done giving. We have to stop and spend time putting things into ourselves and our lives.

      I will say this, if managing people feels like raising a toddler then you can just fire those people. You can’t fire your toddler. Keep the toddler, figure out the management question later on.

  12. Matilda*

    Any advice on how to deal with drama in the workplace? I sit with my coworker “Jane” (in her 60s, been with the company for 10 years) and “Sally” (new assistant manager, 6 months in the job). I’ve been at my job for 3 years. Jane and I either got off on the wrong foot or something, but there’s always been a chill in the air.

    I thought things were okay until today. There was an event going on and Jane said to Sally, “Okay, Sally, let’s go over there.” She then went over to tell the boss and while she told him that they were going over there, she made eye contact with me and kept her eyes on me. 

    I jokingly said, “Have fun!” to them as they left.
    When they returned, Jane goes, “Matilda! There’s cake! You should go over there!”
    I just gave a little chuckle.

    Now, there’s only 3 of us in the room and Jane didn’t invite me. Could I have invited myself? Sure, but it felt like she didn’t want me there. 

    I know that things are awkward between us, so I shouldn’t be surprised, but it’s ironic because if roles were reversed, Jane would make some comment about why she wasn’t invited to go with or say something about being left out. (ie: It’s okay if SHE does it, but not when someone else does.) She likes to do this- she has to side with another person so it is 2 against one.

    Not to be dramatic, but it scares me because I need a job and I’ve been in other places where they bully you out just because they don’t like you. It’s scary because she targets me/it’s intentional and I’m just trying to do my job. 
    I also feel like they’re poisoning the well or something because when Sally started, we talked. Now she only speaks to Jane, and will wave and greet Jane in the morning, but not acknowledge me.

    I’ve been in this situation before and the only solution was to leave. I can’t do that until I find another job though. Any words of advice or similar stories are much appreciated. 

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      I don’t understand why you think you need Jane’s invitation to go to a general work event. I guess I’m missing something.

      1. TechWriter*

        It’s not that she needed Jane’s invite, it’s that Jane purposely didn’t invite her just to be cruel. It’s not about the event, it’s about Jane.

        Matilda, I’m sorry you have to work with such a petty person. I’d suggest accepting that Jane’s gonna Jane, and just treat her with unerring kindness, not stooping to her petiness level. If you can try to shift your mindset and observe her like David Attenborough observing a wild animal, “Here we have the Petty Jane. Ah, yes, she’s just done what we know to be the preferred dominance display of this particular species, how fascinating. Of course, it’s all a waste of precious energy, since Matildas don’t respond in kind.”

        If her bullying behaviour ever has a tracable impact on your ability to do your job, that’s the kind of thing you can raise with your manager.

    2. RagingADHD*

      I also am not entirely sure I’m following the scenario. There were three of you plus your boss at a work event, Jane verbally invited Sally and the Boss, and made eye contact with you while talking about going to the refreshment table. Then they all retuned to where you were, and Jane urged you to get refreshments too.

      It sounds to me like she was including you in the conversation, and just didn’t happen to use your name. They also all returned to where you were instead of going off somewhere else to speak to other people without you. So I’m not seeing where the bullying is. Maybe I’m not visualizing it right.

      In my experience, the best way to deal with this level of workplace drama is to completely ignore it. (That’s not the case for more overt things). If you and Sally used to get along and chat, then go chat with Sally. If you want to go get cake with everyone else, go get cake. If Jane doesn’t greet you, you be the one to greet her.

      Assuming Jane is doing something targeted to cause the chill, ignoring it will remove her power and thwart her. Just be friendly and relaxed with everyone and treat them all the same.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        I don’t think that’s what happened. I think they were all in their work area, Jane invited Sally to go to the event in a way that guaranteed Matilda would overhear, and when she went to tell the boss they were leaving, she watched Matilda to make sure Matilda saw what was happening. And yes, excluding is a form of bullying.

        I’ve worked with a Jane who always had to have an enemy and a pet. We had a large enough team that she could rotate – someone was on top and someone was always on the bottom, but they weren’t always the same person, and her pet could easily become her enemy. The only thing to do is ignore it. Unfortunately, in a team of three, you might be stuck in the enemy role as far as Jane is concerned, but Sally might still be salvageable.

        2. RagingADHD*

          Okay, thanks – I wasn’t picking up on that. I thought they were all in the event room together.

          Agreed, though – ignoring is still the best course. YLet her play her ridiculous mind games all by herself. She wants to play tug of war but you drop the rope, as they say.

          1. Esmeralda*

            Matilda, you could still have gone. You did not need Jane’s invitation. Was it Jane’s event? Was she in charge of making the invitee list? No. If you wanted to go, you should have gotten up and said, great, let’s go!(which would be an excellently sneaky way of challenging Jane). So what if she doesn’t want you there, or if you think she doesn’t want you there.

            Unless she has actual power over your keeping the job, you need to not let her bully you. Say hello to Jane and say hello to sally. Ignore the bitchiness. Take yourself along to office events.

    3. ....*

      What else has she done? There’s a lot of room between “didn’t invite me to walk to an event with her” and “bullying me out of my job”. It does sound very frustrating still.

      1. Matilda*

        She’s in charge of ordering office supplies. She would go around and ask everyone what they needed, *except* me. I started to bring in my own materials and my boss noticed that. He then told Jane to ask me if I needed supplies. She did, but she also ignored me for the rest of the week.

        Jane accused me of “hiding” the teapot labels. When I left my desk to go to a meeting, she apparently searched my desk for them. (A coworker passing by told me this.) She then found out that someone else had them. “Oh, Fergus had them!”

        Other staff members have noticed how she acts towards me and have made comments to me about it in private, etc.

        1. RagingADHD*

          Okay, in a scenario like the office supplies, I wouldn’t wait for her to ask. I’d just email her anytime I needed something, and say something like, “could you please put this on the list for next time you order.”

          Because that is the normal thing to do, and this whole setup of being asked or not is just bizarre and nonsensical.

          Be relentlessly normal.

          1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

            Yes! It sounds like there are slightly strange expectations going on.

        2. LP*

          I’m sorry to hear you are dealing with this. I don’t know what to tell you but clearly if others are commenting to you then you know it’s not you and this is likely a pattern for her. Wishing you the best at perhaps taking some of the suggestions here, to try and make the best of your time there, and can’t hurt to see what else is out there.

        3. Esmeralda*

          But why did you do that? She didn’t ask you — you could go to her and say, I hear you’re ordering office supplies — that’s great, I need X Y and Z! Do you need me to do a requisition form?

          And then follow up when the others get their supplies — hey Jane, I see the supplies have arrived. Could you bring me my XYZ to my desk, or do you need me to get them from receiving?

          I’m not defending a Jane, I’m saying you will defeat her by forcing her to treat you properly. Don’t put up with her BS. If you can challenge her crap in these situations where the boss can hear, so much the better.

    4. Malarkey01*

      I think you are way over thinking this and potentially the one being a little dramatic- and sometimes it’s hard to explain how one example is sympathetic of a whole environment. However two coworkers choosing to walk over to an event together is not excluding you when you don’t need an invite to walk over yourself. It can be as simple as one mentioned it to the other in passing and said I’ll walk over with you- the same thing that happens all the time in offices when someone says “I’m going to the cafeteria too, I’ll walk with you” or “I’m heading out, give me a second to shut down my computer and we can catch up about the knitting project”.

      While it stinks if two coworkers get along and you’re on the outside, the way to avoid drama here is not to see normal office interactions as move than they are.

    5. BRR*

      Accept that Jane doesn’t like you. Of course be professional and polite but I’ve found it the most helpful to just acknowledge how things are and move on. Think of it this way, you’ll win with Jane if you stop caring but you’ll lose if you keep giving her this much space in your head.

    6. LKW*

      If you and Jane report into Sally – then get time with Sally. Put 1 on 1 meetings on the calendar. If you don’t report into Sally, but she is senior to her, then ask for time to pick her brain and learn from her. Butter her up.

      Every couple of days, compliment each of them randomly. “Cute shoes” “You always have the best penmanship!” whatever. Just toss out the flattery. Don’t do it every day but if something strikes – if you see that little smile – that’s the shit that you hone in on “Oooh, Jane’s wearing her cute shoes again! Cute Shoe Day!” And if Jane tries to dismiss “Well I’ve been wearing this for 3 years and you’ve never said anything.” respond with “I know and I’ve always thought it looked great on you. As you know I generally keep to myself but I’m trying to put more kindness out into the world and thought I should start with the people with whom I spend so much time.”

      Just behave as if there isn’t a chill in the air. It’s tough but you’re a drama free person working with a drama queen.

    7. Hobbette*

      So sorry this happened to you. It’s amazing how Jane manages to hold down her job considering she’s still in junior high!

      Many years ago, I was being introduced to three colleagues on my first day at a new job. Colleagues 1 and 2 were friendly and welcoming (“Glad to have you here, please join us for lunch,” etc.) #3 was sitting right next to me and DID NOT EVEN LOOK UP FROM HER COMPUTER – not a word, not even a nod. If memory serves, it took a few days before she even spoke to me and then only when necessary. Go figure. I really hope things get better, but sometimes all you can do is remind yourself that it’s really not you, it’s them. Good luck!

  13. TWW*

    I’m half way through my “2-weeks’ notice” and feeling utterly miserable! I was already feeling overworked and underpaid (part of why I’m leaving), but now I’m even more overworked since I have the additional responsibility of training my replacement and wrapping up loose ends. I’m also feeling even more underpaid since new job will pay 35% more.

    So my question: how bad would it have been to quit without notice?

    I suspect they answer is “very bad,” especially since I’ll have opportunities to do freelance work for my old employer, and my industry is insular (e.g. my new boss is my old boss’s old boss). But I’m curious to hear from anyone who’s done this.

    1. Nabuma Rubberband*

      I’m SO sorry that you are experiencing this…it’s the worst feeling.

      I think about this a lot, and honestly I have read conflicting advice from people (like here, vs Liz Ryan, etc). I have seen companies fire people as soon as they put in their notice so I don’t think it’s that bad to get everything in line and put in your notice effective end of week if you know it’s going to be a miserable slog.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I agree. If it becomes unbearable, then find an excuse to exit early. “New job asked if I could start earlier,” or “I wrapped everything up early so I’m going to take a break before my next job!”
        As long as you let them know you are leaving earlier than planned and don’t no-show the last week, you should be able to gracefully exit. Another option is to talk to someone above your manager, or HR if you have a solid HR Dept, and let them know how overworked you were, and that was the reason you quit, and you can’t take the stress for the last week.

      1. Malarkey01*

        And really EMBRACE the senioritis that is your notice period. Continue to wrap up some reasonable things or train the replacement, but really let go of caring if it all gets done. It literally isn’t your problem if the week ends and you have to tell your boss “here are the files for the llama account, wasn’t able to finish x and y on that”. Leave at the end of the day, spend a little time cleaning out your desk, feel no guilt having that 20 minute non work conversation with Ferguson and when something starts to overwhelm you think in 3 days no matter what this isn’t my problem and I don’t have to solve it today.

    3. CatCat*

      It would be bad. But you also don’t have to do ALL the things in the notice period. You’re allowed to put up a boundary on what can reasonably be accomplished in your remaining time during normal working hours. “Hey Boss, in the week I have left, I won’t be able to train Sally and wrap up A, B, C, D, and E. Given that, what should I prioritize?”

      And if they won’t prioritize, do what you can do during normal work time and then just let some of the balls drop. Soon to be not your problem.

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        This is really important. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DO ALL THE THINGS. CatCat’s script is exactly right.

        2. Carol*

          Gosh, yes. Stick out your 1-week but set some boundaries.

          I truly would not risk burning a bridge over one week. Your feelings are valid but transition times can be stressful and I could see this being a bad decision due just to the overall stress of the situation, rather than what’s really best.

          Could you frame it as doing a favor to your replacement, who will likely soon be overworked and stressed as well?

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      It’s pretty bad to quit without notice — that’s regarded as unprofessional and will get you talked about and tanks that employer as a reference. All those apply, so yes, you needed to give the two weeks. The good thing is, it’s only two weeks!
      I did quit one job once without notice but: (1) I finished a major project first, so the ultimate client was not left dangling; (2) I had discovered that my boss was a con artist/thief/liar; (3) he had a terrible reputation in the industry, so working for him was actually hurting my reputation; and (4) quitting without notice enhanced my reputation since my boss was so universally loathed by everyone who mattered.

    5. TheMonkey*

      This sounds rough. But I think if you can adjust your thinking a little bit, you can get through another week.

      Give yourself permission to prioritize and set boundaries. Don’t spend next week trying to get EVERYTHING done and your replacement fully trained. (Most folks don’t even meet their replacement much less train them).

      Sort out your tasks to see what must absolutely be done by you. Determine if that’s feasible in your remaining week and prioritize. (Bonus if you can delegate any of these to your replacement as a training exercise, unless it will make even more work for you to double check it)

      Ensure any documentation/SOPs you have are up to date (or as up to date as you can make them in your remaining time).

      Provide a reasonable amount of orientation to your trainee/replacement.

      LET THE REST GO! You’ve got one week left, and you already have a new job. You clearly don’t need the reference and have no further responsibility to them after the end of next week.

      After all, what are they going to do, fire you? ;)

    6. Ashley*

      I would push back on the overtime hours as much as possible and stick with I can’t get all this done in X days. What would you like me to focus on?

    7. Morning Glory*

      Don’t quit without notice, but do release yourself from the responsibility of wrapping up every single loose end before you go. That way you look after yourself, and don’t burn that bridge professionally given the small industry and opportunities for freelance work later.

    8. SomebodyElse*

      Surely at this point your job is to tie up loose ends and get as much training in as possible. Make sure that is all you are doing. Decline anything else, hand off everything possible as quickly as possible, and do what you can for the person taking over.

      And yes, stick it out. It’s 5 days, 40 hours, a measly 2400 minutes. Get yourself one of those countdown clocks, make big X’s on your calendar, buy yourself a treat for every day complete. Don’t burn this bridge since you’ve just about crossed it, you literally have one foot on the other side! (feeling motivated yet?)

    9. AllTheBirds*

      A bit off-topic, but why would you want to do freelance work for this cheapo employer that you can’t wait to leave?

      1. TWW*

        Good question! It’s because one of my job tasks is highly specialized and not something my replacement or anyone else on staff can do. It was my favorite part of the job, but comprised only 10% of my duties. As a freelancer, my competitive hourly rate for that task would be about 1.5 times my old fulltime wage.

    10. Your Local Password Resetter*

      Adding my vote to setting boundaries and triaging your workload.
      Remember, you’re already leaving with another job lined up, so there isn’t much they can do if you just give a reasonable effort and call it a day!

      1. SweetDove*

        I am halfway through the almost three weeks I gave and there is definitely giving limits. I am tying up loose ends and leaving information for everyone, but my boundary is I am not working extra at all. I still have about half hour left and am reading AAM.

    11. InsufficientlySubordinate*

      My last two weeks at the “yelling” job, I did useful stuff rather than the stuff manager had wanted up until then. All my emails were sorted into projects and archived or deleted. Process documentation completely done and packaged with relevant emails and contacts. Management never spoke to me in person again after I put in my notice, but I did my most professional job and did not stay late…at all. It was lovely and low-stress.

    12. Observer*

      So my question: how bad would it have been to quit without notice?

      Why quit? Just work a reasonable amount of time, prioritizing training your successor, wrapping up loose ends and your regular work, in that order. Don’t stress over the work that is not getting done.

      Be gracious about it, but don’t let yourself be pushed into taking on a ridiculous load. And do realize that you might not wind up with freelance work from this. But quitting means you DEFINITELY won’t so you’re no worse off by sticking it out with reasonable boundaries. And this way, you won’t leave old boss with a Story to tell.

    13. Momma Bear*

      Here is a take on the training your replacement and feeling burned out – take on only what you can and leave the rest to the new hire. Leave SOPs but it’s not going to be your monkey/circus anymore. Even if you might freelance, it shouldn’t mean you are stuck doing an impossible task. I’d push through this last bit, though, and then treat yourself to a break.

    14. Tofu pie*

      Barring some serious reason (e.g., medical issues, boss behaving egregiously, etc.) I think you should work through your notice period.

      As a manager, I’ve occasionally had employees who quit without notice or behave badly during their notice period. And it sucks; because it pretty much undoes whatever professional reputation or goodwill you’ve built up during your employment when you leave on a bad note. It will likely hurt your colleagues more than your boss or company if they are saddled with unexpected extra workload or have to figure out how to do your tasks because you left without adequate instructions, creating unnecessary frustration and uncertainty.

      When we do reference checks we always ask how the employee was during their notice period. It is a major red flag if they, say, took multiple questionable sick days during their notice period or started turning up two hours late or whatever. And you don’t know how it will come back to haunt you later. Occasionally we’ve conducted informal reference checks on candidates when we know a friend/ex colleague who works at the same company where a candidate was employed – or a personal contact has reached out to us for the same purpose – and it reflects badly on you if the informal referee mentions they had a negative last impression.

    15. Lizzo*

      I’ll echo the recommendations here to 1) set a boundary for what you can reasonably accomplish during your last week, and 2) hang in there! Soon all of this will *not* be your problem.

      And please know that I feel your pain…during my notice period at a previous job, I got VERY sick at the start of the second week, and despite being confined to my couch at home with a fever, I kept working trying to wrap things up, because I was a conscientious employee, and because they kept asking me to do things. On Thursday, I was still sick and asked boss if I could come in Saturday to return my laptop and clean out my desk so my husband could help me (an executive assistant agreed to take my laptop, badge, etc.)…and MY BOSS ACCUSED ME OF FAKING ILLNESS and told me that since I hadn’t done any work that week (?!?!?!), I needed to extend my notice by another week. Friday morning I dragged myself to the doctor, got a diagnosis of whooping cough, then dragged myself the 45 min commute to my office, where everyone said I looked like death, and what the hell was I doing there? (Boss, thankfully, was on a business trip.)

      TL;DR: BOUNDARIES. Don’t kill yourself trying to do it all–it’s not worth it.

    16. enlyghten*

      Anecdote:
      A previous job had me inspecting vehicles exiting a lumberyard. As with any job, some customers were jerks. For a while after I started the job, these folks would stress me out. Sometimes a lot. Eventually I sat myself down and asked myself why I cared that they were being jerks. All indicators said I was doing my job well. 519I realized there was no downside to not taking these people seriously. When I let go of caring about getting yelled at for no reason, I stopped holding on to the stress. Their tantrums couldn’t hurt me and I knew by that time that my superiors wouldn’t reprimand me for them.

      My suggestion is to sit yourself down and ask yourself what is important. Are the loose ends worth the stress? What are the actual consequences of not completing them (it’s not likely your new job will fire you for it). Do what you can, but let yourself let go of the responsibility of making everything perfect. Train the replacement, don’t set them up for failure, but they aren’t your responsibility, ultimately. They are the company’s responsibility. Train them to your satisfaction with the time you have.

      There are professional responsibilities and moral/ethical responsibilities that go along with giving notice, but they don’t include running yourself into the ground. Do what you can; let go of the rest. They will survive just fine and you will be better able to start your new position rested and ready.

  14. The Prettiest Curse*

    Today I found out that the person who bullied me off my project team at my last job is no longer with that company. (I don’t know if they were fired or resigned.) This person had bullied at least 4 people before me, 3 of whom left the company to escape the bully.
    I’m happy for the rest of my former project team (who were all lovely) that they no longer have to work with this person. They caused so much toxicity on that team for so long. And I’m glad that I put my experience with this person on the record so that there was some kind of documentation of their extreme awfulness.
    I’m going to spend the weekend trying to find out exactly what went down. Wish me luck!

    2. Elle Woods*

      That’s fantastic! Good luck getting the details. I’d love to hear an update!

    3. The Prettiest Curse*

      So, the update is that apparently this person left for another job after spending quite a while taking out their resentment on the person who replaced their best friend as their supervisor. (The best friend/previous boss was fired for enabling their friend’s bullying of me.) Hopefully they will be less crappy to people in their next job, but I reaaaaallllly doubt it!

  15. Notice Period?*

    What is normal during a notice period? My boss is treating it like I am not leaving and I am working as if everything is normal, but the amount of stuff that is due after I leave is mounting. For my part I am creating as many documents and contact lists as possible, but the whole nothing is changing feeling seems odd.

    1. Nabuma Rubberband*

      It’s perfectly fine to set boundaries here. Your boss is taking advantage. And two weeks notice is a COURTESY, not a legal requirement. In many states there is at-will employment where either you or the company can cancel the employment contract for any reason, or for no reason, at any time.

      Don’t take it all on. You can’t save them, and that is not your job.

    2. 867-5309*

      I’ve worked places like that… they just don’t have the organization to think about a transition so keep doing your work, document as much as you can for the next person and be clear with your boss that you won’t get to x, y and z because it’s due after your depart.

    3. TheMonkey*

      “Normal” would have some kind of planning/hand off/status meeting so you can take your tasks and duties, get them in reasonable shape and provide some kind of background for whoever is going to be taking them on (even if temporarily) once you’re gone. If there are no plans to have this kind of meeting and things are getting close to the end, you can always request one.

      1. Just Another Manic Millie*

        Requesting such a meeting doesn’t always work. After I gave two weeks notice at a previous job, I tried to show various co-workers how to do my tasks, only to hear that it wasn’t their job – it was the job of my replacement. Well, yes, but my replacement didn’t start at the company until after I left. So I told the office manager that I would be glad to come in for a few days after my official last day to help out. She coldly told me that it wasn’t necessary, because she had hired my replacement, and everything was under control. I tried and tried to tell her that no one at the company knew how to do various tasks that were my responsibility, but she kept interrupting me and insisted that she didn’t need me to come in, because everything was under control, so I finally gave up.

        Shortly after I left, I started getting calls from my former co-workers, asking me how to do this and that. I kept telling them that I didn’t own a computer, and I was unable to picture a keyboard, and I was unable to describe the steps needed to do this and that. I also told them that I had told the office manager that I was willing to come in and help, but she had insisted that she had everything under control, and if they didn’t believe me, they could ask her.

        I did visit the office to show them my COBRA letter and point out all of the mistakes in it, including the fact that the amount of money that I had to pay each month was $XXX in this part of the letter and $YYY in that part of the letter. (This was because no one wanted me to teach them how to draw up a COBRA letter.) And I found out that the receptionist and the office manager had gotten into a screaming fight, resulting in the receptionist running out the door. (I think this happened because the postage meter ran out of postage, and the receptionist didn’t know how to call Pitney Bowes and activate the $500 we had sent them to appear in our postage meter as $500 worth of postage, to be followed by sending them a new check for $500 the following day. When I had tried to explain this to the receptionist, she wouldn’t listen, claiming that it wasn’t her job.)

        Even the office manager called me to ask how to do this and that, and I reminded her that I had offered to come in, and she had told me that it wasn’t necessary. Sometimes TPTB just don’t care.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          This is amazing. What strikes me is that no one could go online get the general number for PB and then start asking questions. BTDT They simply patched me through until I came to The Person In Charge of Caring. Once I found this person, I wrote down their name and number. It wasn’t that hard and everyone was very nice.

          1. Just Another Manic Millie*

            I’m not sure if the receptionist and the office manager even knew that Pitney Bowes was holding onto our $500 until we needed to have it appear in our postage meter. I tried explaining the procedure to the receptionist, but she wouldn’t listen to me, claiming that it wasn’t her job. (What’s funny is that when I started at the company, managing the postage meter was the receptionist’s job, but she did it so badly that it became both of our jobs, and eventually, it became my job.) I don’t think the office manager knew anything about it, because I always got the $500 check from the company’s treasurer, and I doubt if he ever told her about it, or if she ever asked him about it. It was just one of those things that is vital to a company but no one except for the one person in charge ever thought about.

    4. Malarkey01*

      If they assign you something due after you leave just say “oh I’ll be gone after Friday so this should go to someone else”. Rinse, repeat. If they still hand it off to you it’s fine to hand it back on Friday and say I didn’t get very far with this but here’s what I have done”.

    5. Beth*

      Your boss is in denial. This is not your problem. Don’t let him try to make it into your problem.

      The last time I left a job, I gave 2 months’ notice (in the US!), because I was wearing so many hats and handling so many mission-critical elements that I figured it my bosses would want to hire my replacement in time for me to train her.

      They had already persuaded themselves that I wasn’t that important or valuable, so . . . they didn’t hire a replacement. At all. They jobbed out some of my functions (accounting, IT) and just left others flopping (operations, data integrity), and hired a new person into a completely different role, who didn’t even start until after my end date.

      Best I’ve been able to work out from what I heard from my former co-workers, they eventually required FOUR new hires to fill my roles, and the turnover was appalling. I had lined up an IT contractor for them: he fired my bosses within six months. Pure schadenfreude . . .

    6. Engineer Woman*

      I agree with TheMonkey. Your notice period is mostly handovers and transitions. If there are still day to day things you can do (example: you generate a daily report) then maybe there’s still some continuation of those tasks, as in no changes during week 1 of notice and then check as replacement does it for days 1-2 of week 2 and then days 3-5: not your work anymore.

    7. Observer*

      but the whole nothing is changing feeling seems odd.

      It IS odd. But also, not your problem.

    8. Momma Bear*

      I made sure that any works in progress were passed along to the next person and I wrapped up loose ends. If things are due after you leave, talk to your boss about who will take over. If there is no one named, leave notes but at some point it becomes someone else’s job, not yours. You can’t do a job you no longer have. I would notify the people affected to talk to your manager but not destroy myself getting things done. I had a job where the manager pretty much ignored me for the last few weeks and at the end I just left my computer and figured it wasn’t my problem if they didn’t have a transition plan.

  16. awesome3*

    Happy Teacher appreciation week: I hope your schools give you sandwiches, you get discounts and free food from restaurants, and that your unions are advocating on your behalf. Not in that order.

    1. Dumpster Fire*

      Thank you, but none of that happened. We didn’t even get the free pens that we usually get when the administrators go around glad-handing us and thanking us “for all you do”. We WERE, on the other hand, told to be thankful. Not sure for what….
      I’ve had better weeks. But then again, I’ve had worse, so I’ll just hope that next week will be better.

      1. awesome3*

        Sorry. That’s the worst. This year has been a lot of that it seems. If there is a Sonic in your area I think they are still doing deals for teacher appreciation.

      2. PhysicsTeacher*

        Oof, I feel this.

        We’re all burned out this year. Just gotta endure it at this point.

        I hope your school doesn’t have many days left.

    2. purpler*

      Thank you! I’m about to head to the teacher’s lounge for treats and soda. (Sandwiches were Monday!)

    3. Ey-not-Cy*

      We had Mexican for lunch today, so good. All week we have had treats. I’ve eaten too much. There are only two more weeks left of school here, and we’ve been testing for the last two weeks. It’s been a long year. We have been in person all year with many distance learners first semester, not as many second semester. The double dance is quite the learning curve, even for this librarian. Lots of final projects going on right now–my green screens are in full usage, and I’m scrambling to locate all the library books. Many of us have been vaccinated, the students are on the lists now, and we had prom! Graduation will be outside, so some normalcy is returning. Here’s to next year!

    4. ecnaseener*

      My sister’s school gave each teacher…one bag of microwaveable popcorn. You know, the 50¢ kind.

      1. Crabby Patty*

        That breaks my heart. I mean, jeez…

        Reminds of many scenes in Michael Moore’s excellent “Roger and Me.”

    5. Flower necklace*

      We got lunch today. But the highlight of the week was the cards I got from students. One of my coworkers had them make the cards in his class. They were so sweet!

    6. MidwestTeacher*

      No discounts around here. I got a cookie from the union (that I pay into every month). One admin (for the distance classes I teach) sent a nice, if generic, email, the admin for in-person classes sent half a line at the top of a list of end of year dates.

      1. awesome3*

        Oof. I would rather my union fight for all employees who are providing translation services to be compensated for it, but a cookie would be nice too I guess. :/

  17. Startup candidate*

    I may get a job offer from a startup this week. I’m coming from a safe government job so have no experience in this area. Something that would factor in to my decision making would be whether the business is likely to survive. What information should I look for to make a judgment on that? Thanks so much for your help! (Regular who has changed names for this.)

    1. A Nony Mouse Today*

      I’m also currently doing some work with a new start up. One of the big factors is the startup’s ability to communicate well about their vision, their business plan, and their whatever they’re building because if they can’t do that well the chances of their getting investment when they need it is badly reduced.

    2. 867-5309*

      – What is their cash burn rate?
      – Who are their investors?
      – What is their valuation?
      – Have they communicated a roadmap to profitability?
      – Are they investing in development?
      – Is the leadership team talking in real numbers or is it all about culture and “changing the world”?

      I have worked for a number of start-ups and the path to profitability and sustainability are riff with ups and downs. One hired me and and I was let go when the next funding round was 10% of what they needed to sustain staffing. It turned out the executive team was paying our salaries because they had no money. Today. they are publicly traded and successful. I’ve worked for two others who could not get out of their own way and they shuttered inside a year. Still another saw steady increases in growth and is on-target for their profitability metrics.

      That said, I love the challenge of building while you fly, being a generalist and getting to touch many different things within my discipline, etc., so I don’t mind the risk. It’s exciting and fun.

      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        +1 to all of this.

        Also – if they are being funded by one major external source, what is that source’s definition of success, and can they pull the plug at any time? (which is what happened to me at OldJob after 11 months).

    3. irene adler*

      Ask about their funding. Where is it from? How long do they expect it to last (before producing product)? How long will funding ‘carry’ the company when product is launched but not fully supporting the company? Burn rate? Amount of funds in the bank?

      Side comment: Get the highest salary/most benefits you can negotiate for. Reason: annual pay increases (including COL) aren’t a given. Might be a long time before you see any salary increase. Talkin’ multiple years. And they may try to get you to pay for part of your benefits to offset the higher salary. Or, there may not be much in the way of benefits (again, negotiate for higher salary).

      1. irene adler*

        If they are involved with seeking investors, they will file a 10-K with the SEC. This filing may also be on the company website (look under Investor Relations). It is the info a company must provide to any potential investor. It is the “unvarnished truth” about the finances of the company. Look for the section concerning risk factors. This part will be informative. Remember though, it is often a worst case scenario.

    4. PX*

      I’d be keen to dig into their financials: how are they funded, how recently have they raised capital, are they profitable yet, whats their revenue like, growth, and potential (ie are they in a saturated market? whats their current and projected customer base)?

    5. ratatatcat*

      (I work with startups but only on specific funding projects so my perspective is a little skewed) I’m not sure if this is information you’d necessarily have access to, but how startups have been funded and their plans for getting funded in the future are pretty key to some of the ways they develop (even beyond survival, also just in terms of how they operate might change which you may/may not like), so it might be helpful to know what their vision is for future funding

    6. We Live in Interesting Times*

      Others’ comments on this are spot on. I would only add (having gone through this) — save as much of your new salary as you can. We kept getting told there was plenty of investment in the company, and then it turned out a round had fallen through. The company tanked without paying folks their final three paychecks. Of course, it could have gone the other way and we’d all be millionaires now…

  18. GG*

    I’m updating my resume, and am trying to address the issue of different people having different ideas about which Excel skills are “advanced”. So I’m currently leaning towards saying something like:

    Advanced Excel skills including charts, conditional formatting, named ranges, and building custom formulae using assorted functions such as Vlookup.

    1) What’s do you think of this kind of phrasing?
    2) What other things do you know how to do in Excel that you consider advanced? (I’m sure I’m forgetting some, so your answers might help me think of more to add, or at least encourage me to learn some cool new functions.)

    1. Two Dog Night*

      I wonder if it might be better not to use the word “advanced,” just because people’s definition of “advanced” does vary so much.

      Other “advanced” areas, IMO: pivot tables, Power Pivot, data validation, the analysis pack, writing macros, creating add-ins, getting data from external sources, the LAMBDA function (if it’s available–it’s really new but very cool).

      1. Ashley*

        I agree skip the word advanced and list activities. I am ‘advanced’ because I know how to fix a basic formula between two sheets in my office … or I use excel instead of an adding machine for most math problems. Meanwhile I know I use about 10% of what Excel can do. The term varies wildly.

    2. Annika Hansen*

      People seem really amazed by Pivot Tables. They are not difficult to do and make summarizing larger sets of data easily digestible.

    3. No Tribble At All*

      I like the listing of specific skills, but I don’t think conditional formatting counts as “advanced”. To me that’s more medium level, so to speak? Like, they’re good skills for normal users, but you’re not an excel guru, so to speak. But I work with people who commonly use macros that process and create new files, so I think my baseline is skewed.

    4. saffie_girl*

      I like using examples of what you can do, but I agree with others that it is probably best to leave off the level. If you get it wrong in the hiring managers eye, that may end up creating a larger problem.

      Perhaps something like “regular” or “daily” excel user including…

    5. SomebodyElse*

      I would class your examples as “Proficient” but would leave the rank off entirely. It’s so subjective, I never believe what I see on a resume because it really does vary too much in definition.

      For me though, Macros are the beginning of the advanced ranking, I feel like if there’s a button for the function it’s part of the proficient category. (but again, it’s subjective so I’m not claiming to be the final word on this! )

    6. TWW*

      On my resume I just list my key software skills without qualifiers.

      For the job I recently was offered, the posting specifically required Excel, so in my cover letter I mentioned that I have 25+ years’ Excel experience, but I figured it was pointless to try to describe how advanced my skills are to an unknown person who may or may not be impressed by my conditional formatting chops.

      Unfortunately, if I saw a resume citing VLOOKUP as an example of an “advanced” skill, I’m afraid I would conclude you actually weren’t that advanced.

    7. Hillary*

      I agree about leaving advanced off since that’s highly subjective. This is intermediate to me – advanced tools are things like macros, index formulas, and the statistical analysis functions. It’s also about how large the data set is – advanced means successfully working with 100k+ lines regularly and being able to handle millions of lines without taking hours to process.

      Fun things to learn: countif/sumif, countifs/sumifs, and indexes. If you do financial work learning how to build self-adjusting what if scenarios are hugely valuable. What happens if they ask for a different % than I expect? Or we go through three rounds of counter offers? What happens if the project start gets pushed out six months?

    8. Unkempt Flatware*

      Advanced excel skills in my world means being able to create, run, and maintain complex macros and develop meta-data to be able to analyze large multiple data sets at once. I work in state program management.

    9. ecnaseener*

      Seconding/thirding/fourthing the suggestion to leave out the word “advanced,” but not just because it might be wrong — if I’m understanding you correctly, you want to take up resume space with a complete sentence explaining how you define advanced excel skills? That would read really weird to me, like you’re trying to teach the reader what the word “advanced” means (or like you’re saying “I’m just coming up with a definition of ‘advanced’ that applies to me, here you go”)

      1. Imprudence*

        Last time I needed to describe my abilities with Excel and word, I said I was the go to person in my office for queries and problems with them. I thought that positioned me quite clearly as competent in a way that was easy for non experts ( who wouldn’t recognise a vlookup if it was in front of them ) to understand. Does that help?

        1. ecnaseener*

          It’s perfect for a cover letter. I still don’t think it would play well on a resume.

          If you can frame it as a job accomplishment/duty, it could be a resume bullet — something like “supported office’s needs in performing complex excel tasks”

  19. Anxious Annie*

    How do you ask for guidance at a new job without looking needy?

    This is a pretty inconsequential question, but I am not sure how to approach it. I’m overthinking it, for sure.

    I’ve recently started working as a… teapot organizer at a new teapot learning organization location. I’m not new to the organization, but new to THIS location. It’s a very stressful time for 90% of the staff members working here due to Covid-19 and due to new restrictions put into place by our jurisdiction. They are all super stressed. However, my position isn’t really affected by it. But it’s probably the least “important” position at the teapot organization by far, so my “needs” are usually seen as frivilous compared to others. Anyway… I’m supposed to re-distribute teapot building resources to new locations in the building from their current location. Since I’ve only started this position 2 weeks ago, I’m still getting used to where the heck everything is. I’m afraid to ask my supervisor and assistant supervisor WHERE they want me to put things, as they think… I should *know* where to physically put things in the new building? I know I might sound stupid, but I have NO IDEA where would be the best places to put things in this building. Everyone is so stressed out about figuring out how to do their jobs with the new restrictions there’s like… no good time to ask, because to them it’s on the bottom of the list of important things to do? I also don’t want to sound more clueless than I am, but I honestly have no idea where these resources should go. I’ve only been here for 3 weeks, I have no idea!!

    HOW can I ask this question to my supervisors a) without sounding like a needy idiot and b) without “bothering” them during such a stressful time? I feel like I can’t win.

    1. merope*

      I think the key to this question is how you ask it — it’s not about helping you, it’s about helping THEM. Frame your concern as wanting to provide the best support for them, and defer to their expertise. And it may be that they themselves don’t know, but they might have some suggestions as to who should have input into these types of decisions (i.e. I imagine the people who are getting things from the resource locations might have some ideas about their placement).

    2. Lucy McGillicuddy*

      Can you send an email to your boss that says “when you get a chance, could you tell me where these 3 things go: 1. 2. 3.?”? Then they can answer on their own time ? Also if everyone is that busy I wouldn’t worry about where “the best” place to put things is – just worry about finding them a spot.

    3. Blue Eagle*

      Do you have only one question or a bunch of questions? The thing that used to drive me up a wall with one of my staff was interrupting me in the middle of something to ask of one question, then 15 minutes later with another question, then 10 minutes later with still another question. My best recommendation is to group the questions and ask them all at one time. And if you can suggest options (e.g. I’m not sure of the best place to put the cartons – would you prefer they be in the closet or next to your desk or would you prefer I put them somewhere else) that would be even better. Good luck!

    4. JustTellMe*

      I agree with Merope, in that it should be phrased as you wanting to make their work easier/more efficient. If you accidentally put the resources in a place that’s not convenient for them, or is not where they would think to look, then that is time wasted as they try to find/spend extra time getting those resources. So I would probably say something like, ” I know you’re busy, but I wanted to ask you about the best locations for these resources in this new building. I want to make sure that they are located in the most convenient place so as to not interrupt work flow, and I know different buildings sometimes have different preferences. What places would make sense in this building?”

      If you have a huge list of resources needing locations, I wouldn’t burden them with the whole list. Maybe pick a few of the most critical ones, or group them by types. But yeah, I can see how if you ask where each and every little thing goes, it could seem like you need a little too much hand holding. Could you use you experience at past locations to guide you on where stuff needs to go?

    5. SomebodyElse*

      -I would start out by mapping where you think the things should go in the new building. Don’t overthink this, just start with the obvious and sort of go from there.
      -Then, start talking to the people that will actually be using the thing. Let them know where you are planning on putting the things and ask for input (trust me everyone will have an opinion)
      -Then revise your map with the information you’ve learned
      -Present the revisions to your boss for review and advice. Frame it as “Based on what I know from my short time here, this is what I recommend. I’ve received input from the various teams and have implemented as much as possible. I want to make sure I’m not missing anything from your perspective”

      1. SomebodyElse*

        Edit…
        The first thing is to make sure you have enough information about the new building, do you have a directory/map/design of the new space and where everyone/everything will be located? That needs to be the first thing you get … then go on with the other stuff as it makes sense.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Some where there has to be a map of the building- usually for fire exits or whatever.
      If you can locate a map, you can mark it up so that you never ask the same question twice.

      Has anyone given you a walking tour of the building? If no, you can ask. If you don’t feel comfy asking your boss, perhaps there is a friendly face around you who would not mind. I am not sure if this would help answer your question.

      If you know who ordered it, ask them where they want it. I had stuff that I had to put in someone’s office- this was a large area. A new person was in charge of the office, so I simply asked her, “Sue used to have me put all X’s over here. Is that okay or would you prefer something else?” People don’t mind if you are offering to put it in a spot where it’s out of their way but they still know that it’s there.

      If you are getting the “you should know attitude” then what I would do is keep asking different people to spread out the “work” in answering you. It won’t be like this forever, just for a bit, then you will work into it.

      If you get disgusted enough, you could just say to your boss, “I know I keep asking where to put things, can you give me some general rules of thumb so I don’t ask so much?”

  20. LQ*

    How do you know the difference between when you are ignoring things that don’t need to be done/don’t need to be done by you, and when you aren’t doing your job?

    1. RagingADHD*

      It sounds like you are not clear on where your responsibilities are, and/or what type of followup or “maintenance” work is necessary to uphold your long-term priorities.

      That sounds like something to discuss with your manager and get guidance. If you have a list of these things, maybe ask how important they are and who is getting them done.

      1. LQ*

        I was afraid that was going to be the answer, I know my boss will say I’m doing a good job of figuring it out. Which feels like a really disappointing answer.

        1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          If that’s the case, then you need to go high-detail. List all of the stuff you’re doing every day, pushing off, and just dropping altogether. Keep a detailed diary/task list of this for a week or a month, and then go through these things with your boss.

          Also, just by doing this exercise, you’ll be able to see if there’s any correlation between dropping things and bad consequences for your organization.

    2. saffie_girl*

      Ask your supervisor for clarification. They should be able to offer clarity of the specific situation and you will start learning the broader patterns when these things come up again.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      My first clue is when it interferes with my work. I don’t have any x’s and I need them to do y process.
      Okay time to stop ignoring x’s.

      Another thing I look at is, is the task small or big?
      I work in a low budget place. I will go get more paper goods when they are out from the supply closet for the bathroom because I figure others are doing that also. (small task) I will NOT sweep up big piles of mud or dirt that get tracked it. I need the tp and towels, but I can walk around the mud. The mud is a bigger task, it’s in a shared area, not my own space.

      I will do one-time things IF it makes my job easier. I made a little sign for the bathroom because people could not find the light switch. Since my office is closest to the bathroom, they always asked me. This worked so well, no one has asked me in over a year where that switch is. I was answering that question several times a day.

      There are some things that I won’t do even at home. So when the ceiling light needs a new bulb- this one is a no-brainer for me. I don’t do ladders. I notify someone to pass the word.

      Then there are things that I do just because it’s part of my personality. It bothers me if a person looks lost and doesn’t know where to go. I’d want someone to help me if the situation were reversed. It takes two minutes to answer their questions. So I help and it’s not in my job description.

      Generally, if something takes longer than 15 minutes AND happens on a recurring basis then I try to figure out if it’s actually mine or if it’s someone else’s. If your boss won’t answer you, perhaps you can find a friendly person who can. “Hey, are we supposed to be doing ABC or is someone in particular assigned to it?”

  21. Keymaster of Gozer*

    Question that came up on our company manager’s forum and I’m interested in hearing other’s opinions (the post isn’t by me or from my department). BTW in the UK we don’t have baby showers:

    “We’ve had a lot of celebratory parties arranged over zoom for weddings and women going on maternity leave with online donations instead of gifts because of Covid. One of our staff is going off on maternity leave in a month or so and she and others have asked if we can do a ‘gender reveal’ party with the same donation/gift setup as well as the maternity leave one closer to the time. Never encountered one of these, is this something we should be doing here at (company)?”

    (The overall opinion thus far is ‘just do a standard new baby thing, no need to add another’)

    1. Taura*

      (From the US, if that matters) It does seem a bit strange to do it twice? I suppose I could see “So-and-so asked if we could do the party when she comes back with a gender reveal as opposed to when she leaves, can we do that?” but asking for two parties instead of changing the timing or asking for space to make an announcement later on seems off to me.

    2. NotRealAnonForThis*

      Speaking as someone from the US:

      Don’t let this take a foothold as “normal”. Just don’t.

      1. Lora*

        Hahahahaha 100% agree. It goes nowhere good.

        Back story: the original “gender reveal” party consisted of a normal baby shower type of thing with a cake, and when they cut into the cake the inside was pink or blue according to impending boy/girl. Things have since escalated to, I am not kidding about this AT ALL, tannerite explosions that break windows and crack house foundations, cannons and explosions that actually kill the parents-to-be or other family members, fireworks that light wildfires burning 45,000 acres of land, plane crashes, etc.

        The cake lady has since publicly asked people to stop with this nonsense and have normal baby showers.

        1. Keymaster of Gozer*

          Oh dear god! I didn’t know really what these things were (my personal objections to something like that are routed more in gender politics) and yeah, I really hope now that we DON’T import that custom!

          1. Charlotte Lucas*

            Also, babies don’t really have gender. They have a sex. Gender is a social construct.

            In the middle ages & renaissance, children weren’t seen as having a gender until about age 5.

        2. Sunny*

          As a trans person, I don’t inherently mind the cake variety (or the ones that just use paper in baskets, or things of that variety); they seem kind of silly to me, but lots of people do things I think are silly and cake is always nice.

          As a resident of California, I have serious issues with the bomb gender reveal parties. If you must have the parties, just do cake (or blueberry/raspberry pie, if cake doesn’t work for you). It’s much tastier.

        3. No Tribble At All*

          IIRC the reason she did it was because she had a history of miscarriages, so the “reveal” was more a celebration that a pregnancy had lasted long enough that they could determine the sex.

      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        HARD AGREE. Even when people don’t die (and yes, they do die), a gender reveal party is just the stupidest thing, IMHO.

      3. Donkey Hotey*

        Pretty, pretty please don’t let it become any more acceptable.
        “I’m happy you’re having a baby. I don’t need to know about their genitals.”

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      Just say no — even the person who came up with the (horrible horrible) idea of gender reveal parties has now said that she made a mistake.

      1. JustaTech*

        And it’s so sad because for her it was really celebrating that the pregnancy had gotten as far as being able to (maybe) see stuff on a sonogram, because she’d had several miscarriages.

        If a person wants to have a colored cake at their baby shower, awesome. But it doesn’t need to be a thing (and certainly not an *additional* party!).

    4. ratatatcat*

      So they basically want 2 parties with 2 sets of donations and gifts? That seems like it’s asking a bit much, especially since while I assume coworkers probably care that their colleague is having a baby, ie major life event hence the courtesy celebration, they almost certainly don’t care at all about the gender of the baby.

    5. Ashley*

      I have found gender reveal parties to be nothing but a gift grab round 2… well except for the number of people that die, cause forest fires, or create neighborhood wide structural issues. Please do anything and everything to skip a gender reveal party. Plus as we learn more about gender, it is really a reveal of the baby’s sex because you probably won’t really know there gender until 4 or 5 (or later depending on how open the family is).

      1. JustaTech*

        Over the winter I was out cross country skiing on a public trail in the woods when someone fired off an air cannon of confetti for their gender reveal photo shoot. Like, I guess better a photo shoot than a party, but generally cross country skiing is a very quiet activity, like hiking, and random cannons are out of place.
        (And then they had to fire off all the cannons with the wrong color confetti. I can only hope that it all biodegraded quickly.)

    6. RagingADHD*

      No. Besides the gift-grabby nature of trying to get more parties and gifts than everyone else, there’s the fact that a “gender reveal” has nothing to do with their work life at all. A maternity leave/new baby party acknowledges that they are having a major life milestone, and also the fact that the team is supporting their being out for a while.

      Boy or girl isn’t a milestone and doesn’t need any different type of support from work. If they want to do some kind of staged gender-reveal event (which I personally believe is incredibly tacky), they can video it themselves and share it with their friends at work through social media.

      Hopefully they wont’ kill anyone or set any wildfires, as gender-reveal events gone wrong have now become notorious for.

      1. WellRed*

        Yes even at workplaces that do baby showers a gender reveal would be really odd. Plus, are they planning a separate gender reveal for family and friends? Once the cat’s out of the bag, it simply isn’t possible to keep secret for many people.

    7. Undine*

      I say no. In addition to being just another baby thing, you may have employees who are offended by it. Even worse, it’s potentially an equalities issue — I don’t know much about that in Britain, but you may have employees who are intersex, transgender, or non-binary who really will suffer if this becomes a standard thing. (It sounds like you’re big enough that you almost certainly do.)

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        Yeah, that’s basically my objection to it, before even knowing a bit more about this type of party! I know it’ll offend a lot of people (including me) who don’t believe what you’re born as = your gender for life, or even if gender is something you have to hold to.

        1. NotRealAnonForThis*

          So I’ve never had luck (or had the technical knowhow to not bugger it up apparently), so I did a quick copy and paste from Wikipedia (yeah, I know, mileage varies on accuracy, crowdsourced, yada yada, so boulder of salt but here it is):

          History and development
          The gender reveal party developed in the late 2000s. An early example was recorded in the 2008 posts of then-pregnant Jenna Karvunidis on her ChicagoNow blog High Gloss and Sauce announcing the sex of her fetus via cake.[6] YouTube videos can be found as early as 2008 and 2009, becoming significant around 2011, after which the trend continued to grow through the 2010s.[3][2]

          In 2019, Karvunidis observed an increase in extreme reveal events over the preceding five years, with parents “burning down forests and exploding cars, bringing alligators into the mix”. She expressed regret at having helped start the trend, learning how the LGBT and intersex communities feel, and finally revealing the daughter they announced back in 2008 to be a gender-nonconforming individual who wears suits while still identifying as female.[6] After the 2020 El Dorado Fire was started by a malfunctioning pyrotechnical device at a gender reveal party, Karvunidis pleaded for people to stop staging such events.[7]

          Comparison to baby showers
          Baby showers, a traditional prenatal celebration, have some key differences with gender-reveal parties. Primarily, the focus on gender-reveal parties is fetal sex, while baby showers focus on the giving of supplies and items for the future infant to the expectant parent(s). Traditionally, baby showers are for women only, while gender-reveal parties have no inherently-associated gender restriction and attendee limitations (if any) are determined by the pregnant individual or couple. Some couples combine the two.[1][2]

          Spread and mediatization
          The trend was popularized on social media platforms such as YouTube, Instagram, and Pinterest, although it originated before the latter two.[3][5] This mediatization has significantly boosted the likelihood of expectant parent(s) to have or take part in gender-reveal parties. Internet remix culture lends the practice great receptivity toward individual creativity, a factor in their growing popularity.[1][2] Demographic research shows the most gender-reveal parties are done by expecting parents that are middle-class, heterosexual White Americans who are married or partnered.[1]

        2. Hotdog not dog*

          Gender reveal parties are nothing more than a ridiculous gift grab. When I was pregnant we declined to learn the baby’s sex before the birth…our thought was that it wouldn’t make any difference since we planned to love our child no matter what. There was a lovely baby shower with beautiful multicolored and gender neutral gifts. At work, my colleagues held a nice luncheon with cake, gifts were minimal (everyone brought a favorite children’s book), and it was a very thoughtful and appreciated gesture. Especially at work, a whole big shindig is much too much. Keep it simple!

          1. Rusty Shackelford*

            IMHO, if not a gift grab, at the very least they’re an attention grab.

            1. Hotdog not dog*

              The books were fabulous! Affordable, gender neutral, easy to transport, and got a ton of mileage before being outgrown! Plus, it made for some fun conversations during the luncheon (“oh, I’d forgotten that one, I loved it when I was little!”)

      2. Hare under the moon with a silver spoon*

        Im from UK (London if relevant) – seems a bit off especially as we’re hopefully moving towards more trans-inclusive spaces. Like others have said gender is just a social construct.

    8. Ya Girl*

      Am I reading this correctly that she’s expecting coworkers to give gifts at two separate parties? Absolutely not.

    9. No Tribble At All*

      No, it’s not something you should be doing, for two reasons:
      (1) don’t let people double-dip on parties, especially when part of party is “everyone else brings me presents”
      (2) gender reveal parties are stupid

    10. Dark Macadamia*

      So she’s asking for two celebrations when everyone else gets one? No thanks lol

      I can’t stand the concept of a gender reveal party, partly because it seems like it’s not an alternative/theme for a baby shower but an EXTRA baby shower now?

    11. often trapped under a cat*

      Agree with everyone else: do not go there.

      In my worklife, we have baby showers for expectant parents (moms and dads). We’re still fully remote, so all these things have been virtual, and no donations have been solicited from employees. Prior to the pandemic, a physical card was circulated along with an envelope for cash donations. No one kept track of who gave and who didn’t or of who gave how much. I think because that anonymity could not be preserved virtually, donations were abandoned. It’s unclear if/how/when they might resume. Now we do virtual cards, which are great, and have Zoom parties, which are–for me–more fun than in-person ones. I can hear more of what people are saying, I can “chat” in the sidebar while the main conversation is going on “live” and without having to make my way through a crowded, hot, noisy conference room.

      As for gender-reveals, a couple of years ago in my non-work life, I talked someone out of it by gently raising the question of why someone’s genetics were something to celebrate? In this day and age, what a fetus’s genes say does not necessarily indicate the actual gender of the person that fetus will become. The person was receptive to the argument and cancelled their plans.

    12. Bagpuss*

      Yes, this seems weird to me (UK) and if it happened in my workplace I would definitely see it as a gift-grab, if there’s already a practice of doing something for someone going on maternity leave.

      If you have to respond, then I’d be inclined to say that no, it’s not something to add but of course of the new parent-to-be wants to include a gender reveal at their leaving-to-go-on-maternity-leave event then that’s their choice. (You might think, but probably shouldn’t add, that you can’t see any way of stopping them… )

    13. LKW*

      I would advise that for a life event everyone gets one celebration. Marriage, baby, adoption, whatever. One. I’m not a fan of any of it but this nonsense of repeated celebrations for a single event is just getting out of hand.

    14. Malarkey01*

      (US) it’s so so weird to do this with coworkers. I don’t like gender reveal parties in general for a lot of the reasons already stated, BUT at least when you normally do them for close family they at least are interested in the sex of the baby because they will be part of the baby’s ongoing life (personally think there’s bad gender issues around this but knowing my sisters kid is a boy or a girl is at least interesting to me). I give zero cares whether Jane my coworker has a boy or a girl. It’s nice to say congrats Jane is becoming a mom but after that I have zero stake in her baby or her.

    15. Beth*

      Holy cripes, nip the “gender reveal” thing in the bud NOW. It will be written in gold in the great book of your virtuous deeds if you do so.

    16. I ♥️ Spreadsheets*

      From a UK reader –

      I work in childcare so it may be different, but we have tended to have a work baby shower before our staff go on maternity leave. If they want to have a gender reveal then that is a personal decision and is nothing to do with work. Over the last 6 years I think I was invited to 3 or 4 gender reveal parties from people who only knew me from work, while a few more have bought in cupcake with coloured icing to share the sex of the baby.

    17. fhqwhgads*

      No. These are bad enough when they happen with friends and family. It does not need to become a work thing as well.

    18. I take tea*

      I find the gender reveal party to be both perplexing and down right off-putting. If you have any clout to push it back, please do.

    19. allathian*

      Ugh. I hope you can stomp hard on this one.

      I didn’t even want to know the sex of my child before birth, and our NHS won’t attempt to turn the baby just for that for a sonogram, although they’ll tell you if it’s obvious. I’m glad neither baby showers nor gender reveal parties are a thing here, but then, I’m in Finland and we invented the “baby box”. New parents get a lot of stuff, mostly baby clothes, for free, before the baby’s born. Including a box with a thin mattress that you can use as your baby’s first bed, instead of a bassinet.

    20. Policy Wonk*

      Do the standard thing. Nothing more. If Mom-to-be decides to reveal the baby’s sex, that’s up to her. Do not give in to this madness!

    21. Robin Ellacott*

      I’m in Canada but it’s a burgeoning Thing here too. Personally I hate gender reveal parties (largely due to my beliefs about gender) and I think all in all even if you are ok with the concept it’s just not a work thing.

      I also would be embarrassed to get, or attend, two celebratory parties and flurries of gifts for the same event.

    22. Here we go again*

      IMHO, I always thought Gender reveals are dumb.
      Especially since I knew a guy who died at one because the old cannon used exploded. Please don’t force people to participate in this. We once had a diaper raffle where I worked for someone going on maternity leave. That was fun, everyone brought in a package of diapers and we had cake.

    23. Tessa*

      You don’t get two parties. How embarrassing to even ask. It’s more than enough to ask for one. No one needs a gender reveal.

    24. Sleeping Late Every Day*

      Shit, I don’t even attend regular showers of any kind. If it’s people I care about, they get ONE gift for their wedding or birth of child WHEN IT HAPPENS. This would make me uncontrollably snarky. I’ve given gender-neutral baby gifts for like five decades (hello green! hello yellow!) and this seems like some insidious back-to-the-regressive 1950s or before era with rigid gender roles. Ugh.

    25. Snark No More!*

      I agree with the commentariat on this. Unless you want to do two parties for every expectant mother from now on, don’t set this precedent.

  22. CareerShifter*

    Anyone give up a full time job to return to grad school after over 15 years?

    I don’t mind studying for GREs, but I don’t know how to get around letters of recommendation. My professors from way back when couldn’t speak to my work habits after 15 years, and I don’t want to tip off my current bosses that I’d be leaving…

    1. SAinthebooks*

      I returned to grad school after 8 years. Not quite 15, but still a significant length of time.

      I asked my professors from way back. The professorial comments are likely more relevant to your success in your new program than your current bosses’ comments would be, since they (presumably) would speak more to your academic aptitude, interest, development, collegiality, etc, rather than to “work skills.” Plus, your professors may have records on performance that they could reference to write a letter.

    2. Koons*

      I’m doing exactly this, 15 years later! It’s a complete career shift, and a first professional degree for the new field. I used previous managers and intradepartmental co-workers as references (to show I could work well across departments) which worked out just fine. I also took a 3 month course (continuing ed) in a topic in my new field last fall, just in time to ask for a recommendation from the professor who was pleased to help someone entering that field. I was accepted to the program I wanted, and start full time in the fall!
      I had been thinking of grad school on and off over the years and finally decided I wasn’t going to go because I didn’t want any debt, and didn’t think a masters would truly help in the field I was in. But I reached a burnout point with my current career, which is a bit dead-end, and decided to make a full switch. The types of schools I looked at were very supportive financially, and I wouldn’t have done it without that.
      Good luck with everything!

      1. Koons*

        I should add that I wrote a statement of purpose for the application which outlined why I wanted to switch careers, and sent that along to my recommenders, along with an easier to read bullet pointed email highlighting how my work with them would support my application, so I hope it was easier for them to make the bridge in the letter to my going to graduate school. The two career paths are not closely related, but do use similar skills (visual analysis, project management, constant keeping up with new ways of working).

        1. CareerShifter*

          This is great advice re: statement of purpose, thanks!
          And I’m in a similar boat re: visual analysis/proj management…I want to go back to school to understand the technical bits of what I’m visualizing/managing!

    3. Carol*

      I did this, not with as much time, but my older professors were happy to write recommendations for me.

      Include a recap of what you did with them/how they know you, work you did for them, any academic achievements, and some basic info on where you are now and what you would bring to a grad program. Make it very easy for them to remember you and write the letter (in fact, some ask for lists like this as a default). Be grateful and not demanding, always give them an out if they don’t want to recommend you.

      You could include one former manager to round it out, but you want academics in there, too.

      You could also consider enrolling in a somewhat related course in a state university (not a for-profit money machine), and getting a nice current reference from that professor. Community college won’t hold as much weight, although that’s rank snobbery as many of those teachers have PhDs and just couldn’t hack the oversaturated R1 job market.

    4. Unladen European Swallow*

      First, I’d confirm with the program to which you’re applying if you are required to have academic reference letters with your application. It’s not uncommon for programs to give separate instructions for those who last earned their degree more than 5 years ago and NOT require a letter from a professor. I’d focus on getting a letter from a supervisor/manager, maybe from a colleague. Ask if they can focus their letter to include information on the skills that would be required in a graduate program, which might include critical thinking, data analysis, writing, etc.

  23. Anansi*

    Any advice for dealing with unresponsive coworkers during the pandemic? I wonder if now that we’re over a year into this, a lot of people are just fed up with virtual work. I get it! But work hasn’t slowed down and there’s still a ton of things to do. While there have always been a few people who are tough to get a hold of, in the last few months there’s been a huge uptick of people just ignoring their emails, skipping scheduled calls with no notice, saying they’ll send needed materials and then…not. I feel like I spend the whole day haranguing people repeatedly for basic things. Is anyone else experiencing this, and have you had any success in navigating it?

    2. Product Julie*

      Yes, I am experiencing this constantly, and no I don’t have much advice. I just try to set a better example and be sympathetic, because I know my workload has gone through the roof right now.

      1. Anansi*

        I feel like that’s probably the best thing to do, and I’m definitely trying to be understanding. It’s frustrating though!

    3. TWW*

      Unpopular opinion: Start strongly encouraging employees to get vaccinated and come into the office. There will be some workers who can’t, but over the next several weeks, many, if not most, US office workers will be able to safely return to onsite work.

      2. Crabby Patty*

        “over the next several weeks, many, if not most, US office workers will be able to safely return to onsite work.”

        Is there verifable data supporting that?

  24. NeonDreams*

    I finally got a internal interview at my company! I’ve been in customer service for almost 6 years and completely burnout on the profession. I’ve been applying to internal positions off and on for years with multiple rejections. I’m super excited because it’s off the phone and more solitary. The listing says remote, which I’m not sure about. But I’ve been remotely working for over a year now due to the pandemic. I could get used to it.

    Anyway, wish me luck. It takes place a week from Monday.

    1. Blue Eagle*

      Sending you positive energy and wishing you luck! Customer service definitely takes its toll – wishing for you a new position that lets you develop new skills and is enjoyable to boot.

    3. Charlotte Lucas*

      As a former CSR, I’d like to say that anyone who stays with it as long as you have deserves an award.

      Getting off the phones might help with the burnout. Good luck!

      1. Fran Fine*

        Getting off the phones might help with the burnout.

        It did for me (I was in customer facing roles for seven years, but it felt more like 70 by the time I escaped) – good luck, OP!

  25. Tuckerman*

    Glad I read the recent interview here with the EAP worker. My husband and I were overwhelmed trying to find time to compile a list of possible daycares. I contacted our EAP, they asked a few questions about our needs, and said they’d send me a list of daycares by Monday. I wouldn’t have thought to use our EAP for this if I hadn’t read the interview!

  26. Nabuma Rubberband*

    It’s perfectly fine to set boundaries here. Your boss is taking advantage. And two weeks notice is a COURTESY, not a legal requirement. In many states there is at-will employment where either you or the company can cancel the employment contract for any reason, or for no reason, at any time.

    Don’t take it all on. You can’t save them, and that is not your job.

  27. Alu*

    Probably a basic question but – if a job ad for a copy editor asks for a writing sample, are they asking for an original sample of my own writing or a sample of writing that I have edited (with track changes)? I would assume they would want to see examples of the editor’s work in practice but I would feel uncomfortable sharing someone else’s writing that I have edited without their permission. Copy editing is currently a large part of my current job but I’m branching out into freelancing and am not sure how to handle this, as I’ve seen it come up in a couple of listings.

    1. RagingADHD*

      I would assume it’s a sample of your own writing, which hopefully is copyedited to the same standard.

      1. WellRed*

        I agree. It’s helpful to see that a potential copy editor can also write clean, concise copy. They can always give you a copy editing test.

    2. Alex*

      I would assume they want a writing sample of your own writing. If they want to see your editing, they will give you a copyediting test.

    3. AllTheBirds*

      I’d send two writing and one editing sample. I don’t think it’s overkill to send just two more.

    4. Weegie*

      This is extremely odd. I’m an editor who hires copy-editors, and what I’m interested in is their editing style, not their writing style. I set them an editing test if they’re invited to interview – and when I’ve been interviewed for editing jobs previously, I expect to be asked to complete an editing test.
      If you can, ask the person advertising the job to clarify, because the job may actually be geared towards copy-writing.

  28. Lucky*

    I received a very healthy market adjustment to my salary yesterday. I’m thankful, but I also know that this means I was underpaid and the company understands that I’m disgruntled about the lack of promotion opportunity. So, yay?

    1. AnonE.Moose*

      I would take it as a win, in my experience in some industries, they know this about employees, don’t do anything about it then are surprised when people start leaving.

    2. ATX*

      I would consider that as a win! There are a lot of companies that don’t offer promotions unless there is head count for that type of position or someone leaves. No one at the fortune 50 company I work for gets promoted from analyst –> manger –> senior manager unless there’s an open position or additional headcount and they are promoted into that job.

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I’d take it as a win. I’ve gotten a couple of those. I’m pretty sure that my immediate management is constrained by rules set by our parent company regarding how much they can give as a raise. These rules might be appropriate for parent company’s industry, but not for the software developers in our little sub-company. This means it’s not difficult for people in my role to get out of sync with market rates. Fortunately, management has been able to successfully advocate to bring salaries back in line with market rates. (I do wish we had a more systematic way for these salary reviews to happen for the whole parent company, though…)

    4. twocents*

      My company does market analyses every couple years and adjusts pay (up only) if appropriate.

      The alternative is that they ignore the market or ignore that they’re underpaying, so I’d see this as the best option.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Yes, yah! It’s the best they can do with what they have.

      The ball is in your court to decide if it’s enough or if it’s too late. I think this is one of those questions that people can come up with a wide range of answers on.

      If you have arrived at “disgruntled” it might be too late for you. If you were looking for promotion opportunities, again, this raise might be too late for you.

      Does it help to think of this as the SO who wants a second chance?

  29. Need resources and ideas for dealing with poor team lead*

    My team lead has poor leadership skills at best. Some days she’s dictatorial and revamps everyone’s work until it’s unrecognizable; other days she won’t respond to DIRECT requests for information or assistance.

    Suggestions for managing up when you work with someone you truly dislike and don’t respect and hate interacting with? Resources for dealing with this situation? Websites, books, articles?

      1. Need resources and ideas for dealing with poor team lead*

        Nope. She’s the lead teacher for my grade level- basically the person who funnels info from admin to us and (supposedly) from us to admin. She has more “clout” because she’s also the department head.

    3. Let me be dark and twisty*

      Check out “Managing Up: How to Move Up, Win at Work, and Succeed with Any Type of Boss” by Mary Abbajay. She spoke on this topic at a seminar I went to and she was phenomenal. She breaks down different leadership management styles and techniques, like the micromanager or the ghoster or the impulsive reactor, and gives tips on how to deal with them. I’m not sure if she has a specific scenario for the type that your team lead is but you might find something that helps!

      Specifically for your team lead, all I can suggest is document. Document, document, document. If she revises everyone’s work and you have no idea what you’re supposed to do, document it. If she doesn’t respond to your emails, document it. If she ignores requests for help, document it. It will all catch up to her and she will probably try to throw the team under the bus for her bad decisions. Keeping a folder of memos for record (MFRs) or some other kind of internal documentation will save your hide. Just make sure you keep the documentation courteous and professional.

      (If you need to work out some aggression, boxing lessons and those smash-it places are very helpful!)

  30. wannabe job hopper?*

    So, I had Zoom interviews scheduled this week. Annoyingly they were scheduled spaced out such that I had to take a half day from work. There were only 2, and the second one (my potential boss) was a no-show. I emailed HR and asked if they would like to reschedule and they apologized and said yes.

    I’m trying to err on the side of “this stuff happens” but also, would have thought common courtesy would have been to let me know that it wasn’t happening WHEN it wasn’t happening. I’m rescheduling, but just wondering how big of a red flag people think this is? I have a nightmare boss now and I REALLY want to screen out future nightmare bosses.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      It’s possible that it was just a glitch, like the recruiter forgot to invite the manager on the invitation. Or there could have been a legit emergency.
      I would go to the rescheduled interview and see what happens. If the manager ignores the error and doesn’t apologize, then you will know for sure.

      1. wannabe job hopper?*

        Thanks! They told me her “previous call had gone over.” But I’m rescheduled for next week and will see what happens!

        1. Workerbee*

          Ooh. This happens all the time at my org and it’s because people can’t stop talking and think it’s okay to add even more 5-minute thoughts if someone says, “We’re at time.”

  31. Nonny*

    I’m officially unemployed and finally got my COBRA paperwork from HR today. Regarding the federal government covering COBRA payments, do I have to apply for that? Or accept COBRA and pay and hope to get reimbursed?

    1. Greensleeves*

      Your former company is responsible for implementing that and they’re the ones receiving reimbursement from the government, so you should ask them about it. Note that you’re only eligible if you were involuntarily terminated, not if you resigned.

      1. Nonny*

        I was laid off. The paperwork they gave me only included information on how to accept COBRA… Which is not surprising, this who process has been a hot mess.

          1. Nonny*

            They just said the benefits administrator would contact me via mail. I’m anxious because COBRA is going to cost me $2,200+ a month and if I can’t get covered, I won’t enroll.

    2. Undine*

      I am on Cobra, and my company sent paperwork that includes my reason for leaving so it’s supposed to be automatic. However, I still got a bill for my Cobra, so I called them up and they said they hadn’t got everyone in the system yet. So if you do receive a bill, call the number on the bill to get it sorted.

  32. Please I Just Want to Sleep And See My Family*

    This is more of a rant. I work seasonally, with a job that is pretty straightforward but needs constant coverage in case something goes wrong (think llama security guard making sure the llamas aren’t escaping their pens). There are four of us, and we rotate coverage. This spring, right before the start of the season in March, one of us left. Boss asked the rest of us llama security guards if we’d be ok working some extra OT to cover for that person until they hired a new one. We all said yes. Well, it’s not a small amount of OT, it averages out to 20 hours/week, often involving working 12 hour overnight shifts for 7-9 days straight, and it is now May, and no one has been hired. Also no word on providing any alternate coverage so we can go back to having lives outside of work. To top it off, I have a vacation scheduled in early June, that I was planning on taking last year but was postponed to this year due to covid, and was jut informed I now probably can’t take it it due to our coverage issues, even though I requested this time off back in early March and was told no problem, and have since spent a fair amount of time and money on setting up said vacation (I cannot, for various reasons, move the date).

    I’ve talked to my fellow llama security guards, and we are all worn out and not willing to do this much longer. I understand it’s been difficult to hire someone new, but we feel that at some point management has to pull in someone from another department, or get a temporary emergency hire, or get someone else to work some OT to take some of the load off of us. Am I totally off base here? I’ve talked to my boss, who has just sort of shrugged and said there’s not much he can do until someone gets hired.

    1. WellRed*

      It’s not reasonable to ask people to add 20 hours to their work week. I’d push back on the vacation for sure, with the reasons you mention here plus, “it’s part of my compensation package and I need to be able to use it,” also, can you and your coworkers band together in this?

    2. Bagpuss*

      I would definitely push back on the vacation – be clear that you have incurred non-refundable costs and as the vacation was approve 2-3 months ago, you aren’t in a position to cancel.
      Is the work something which a locum or temp could cover? IF so, can you suggest that to your boss?

      It may also be worth talking to your colleagues and pushing back as a group to say that you are not able to continue todo such high levels of OT, especially as you agreed to cover on the basis that it would be a limited, short term thing.
      Is your boss qualified to provide the coverage? IS that an option?

      1. Please I Just Want to Sleep And See My Family*

        We could do an expediated temporary hire, but unfortunately this job is in an extremely remote area, so it’s difficult to find people locally. My boss /could/ provide coverage, in fact he has in the past when we’ve been in this situation before (seasonal turnover is pretty standard, one year we were down three people, so I’m really annoyed that it’s causing this much disruption this year). But he’s leaving in two weeks, and the new guy has just started training and I haven’t met him yet so I’m not sure how to approach him about this.

        I’ve talked to my co-workers about pushing back as a group, but they are much more passive about this than me and aren’t willing to do that yet.

        I did manage to get the cancelation with a refund date on my vacation pushed back by two weeks (it’s actually a class for a hobby of mine I had to go through a somewhat lengthy application process and knock out a bunch of prerequisites for to get in to. So… I’m really hoping I don’t need to drop it!), so there’s that. My current plan is to keep politely but persistently pestering my boss about it for the next two weeks and hope that we’ll be able to work something out.

        1. Workerbee*

          Oh, I wonder how long your boss has been planning to leave. He doesn’t sound like he’s cared for awhile. He has no reason to in his final two weeks, either.

        2. Observer*

          What happens if you tell your boss that you are going. Period. This was approved months ago, you incurred costs that you can’t recoup, this is an opportunity that you won’t get again any time soon, and you only agreed to take on the insane amount of overtime because you were promised that it would be very short term. 3 months is NOT short term. So, you’re going.

          I hope they have been paying you overtime rates.

          1. WellRed*

            Yes, if they can’t hire people, they certainly aren’t likely to fire anyone.

        3. TL -*

          Can you just tell the new guy you have a vacation scheduled for X dates, approved since March?

    3. I take tea*

      Band together and push back. Right now the job gets done anyway, so there is no pressure to fix the situation. Make it harder for the boss to shrug it off. Be squeaky weels, all of you.

    4. NotGoneGirl*

      This sounds like one of those things that’s since things are “working” there’s no pressing need to change things. Of course, it’s breaking you guys, but it’s still working from a higher level.

      I’d do my best to hold strong on your vacation. Sometimes things have to break and/or the boss has to feel the pain to get things moving.

      Plus, if you are really doing something that requires this level of coverage, they shouldn’t want you absolutely burnt out where mistakes are more likely to happen. Although I know that isn’t often seriously considered other than talking about it (doctors, nurses, emergency personal, etc, etc).

      1. Just Another Manic Millie*

        “This sounds like one of those things that’s since things are “working” there’s no pressing need to change things.”

        That’s exactly what I was thinking. I wouldn’t be surprised if they never intended to hire another llama security guard.

        At one former company, on my first day, I was asked to do someone else’s job, in addition to my job, until they could hire a replacement. They never hired the replacement, and I was stuck with doing two jobs. (Friends told me that it was completely my fault, since they assumed that someone wasn’t hired because I was doing the two jobs so well, but IMHO if I had done the two jobs poorly, I believe they would have fired me, instead of realizing that the two jobs were too much for one person.)

    5. BubbleTea*

      Can you all decide as a group to stop agreeing to overtime, or to limit it to the amount you’re willing to do? They can’t fire you all or they’d be even worse off! It is the only way they’ll get the recruitment sorted by the sounds of it.

    6. Free Meerkats*

      First day with the new boss, directly tell him that you’ve had the vacation time scheduled since March, your former boss knew, and effective [date] you’re done with 20 hours of OT a week. Nobody is going to advocate for you and your coworkers, so you need to do it. Alone, or with them as a group.

  33. Newbie*

    Hi all! I’m in a bit of an awkward situation. For the past few months, I’ve been interning with a great company. My boss told me and the 2 other interns on our team pretty early on that unfortunately the company wasn’t looking to hire anyone full time but that everyone on staff would be happy to help us in our job search (all of us interns are post-college or seniors). Well a few weeks ago, I was offered to stay on with the firm as a fellow (Wohoo!). When I was offered the position by boss asked that I “be discrete” and not mention it to the other interns. I totally understand that! But now one of the other interns and I Have become pretty close and text outside of work as friends. He has asked me 4x in the past 2 weeks about how my job search is going and every time I just lie and say “nothing new to report”. But the thing is, our internship ends next week and I will be starting the fellowship at the end of the month and will accordingly be updating my LinkedIn. I don’t know what to do! I don’t feel comfortable continuing to lie to him and I also don’t want him to feel hurt when he sees I got the fellowship and as far as I know he is still looking for a job. Any advice???

    1. ratatatcat*

      I think this is maybe a judgement call about the sort of person the other intern is and what your relationship like: is he the sort of person who will be able to deal with it in a professional, calm-headed way and actually keep it low-key?
      Another thought is it might be worth waiting until the middle-end of next week and frame it like you were just offered the role, to minimize the amount of time he knows while interning there. Presumably the company will not keep you as a secret employee forever so he’s going to find out fairly soon!
      (caveat being I suppose if you signed an NDA or something contractual but I’m guessing not)

      1. Newbie*

        I think he would be calm-headed and professional when hearing the news I just am such an empath I don’t want him to feel bad! I know he’s been disheartened with his job search but I guess it’s not my responsibility to control his feelings aarrgh.

    2. 867-5309*

      This is something your boss can also help you navigate. As them something like, “With the internship program ending next and Suzy and Dan moving on to something else, they have been asking about my plans. Is now an appropriate time to mention that I am staying on with Acme Inc.?”

      Also, this is a difficult but important lesson to learn early in your career: Sometimes you know things that you cannot tell a work friend, even someone who becomes a good friend outside of work. I was in the mid-20s leading internal communications for a division of a large company. We had layoffs and I learned that one of my closest friends (inside and outside of work) was being let go and could not say anything. It is hard but hopefully they understand that you needed to keep the news under wraps.

    3. WellRed*

      Does the boss show other signs of not being a good leader or manager? Cause this is silly in general and unfair to you.

      1. Crabby Patty*

        There is nothing wrong with asking the intern to be discrete. In fact, it’s a smart move in this case, and it happens all the time in the workplace, with good reasons.

    4. elle*

      It’s kind of a red flag that your boss asked you to avoid mentioning it to the other interns. That’s not fair to you at all.

      1. 867-5309*

        If there were several weeks left in the internship, I could see why the boss asked Newbie to keep things under wraps so as not to demoralize the others. OP just needs to go back to their boss with this question now that it’s a bit later and closer to the end of the program.

        1. Newbie*

          I definitely don’t take this as a red flag from my boss (who is a junior associate, interns are her only reports). She framed it as wanting to be considerate of the other interns’ feelings since there was still a month left in the program and it had been previously stated that there were no open positions. She said ‘if we could, we’d hire all of the interns. That’s how impressive you’ve all been”. This new position is on a different team so she won’t be my boss when I start the fellowship but she has been an amazing manager and mentor to me, definitely the best boss I’ve had (and I’ve had 7 other internships).

      2. Malarkey01*

        Asking to keep staffing changes under wraps for a time determined by management is incredibly normal (whether it’s people being let go, being told you got a promotion over others, or being told of hiring decisions). There’s no red flag there.

        1. elle*

          Sure, I understand being told to wait for the official announcement or something. But it sounds like OP was just asked to keep it a secret indefinitely and then have to handle the fallout themselves when they leave and OP doesn’t.

          1. Crabby Patty*

            “When I was offered the position by boss asked that I ‘be discrete’ and not mention it to the other interns.”

            Where does this indicate that the boss told the intern to not say anything indefinetely and that the intern/fellow would be left to handle “fallout”? In fact, nothing in the OP’s post says anything remotely of the kind. Malarkey01 is right. There’s nothing nefarious happening here.

    5. Blue Eagle*

      You were asked to keep it quiet. If you tell your friend and your friend tells others, it may get back to your company and will be negative for you (i.e. you can’t keep confidential information private). Why not ask your boss when it would be OK to mention your fellowship. And once it is OK to do so, let your friend be the first to know the good news that you were offered the fellowship.

    6. Kathenus*

      I’d reframe your thinking, you’re not lying to your friend, you’re maintaining information as confidential as requested by your boss. There are lots of things that friends and coworkers might like to know, and we might like to talk about, that we are told to not discuss. In your case this is one of those. While maybe your friend is also discrete if you share it, you’re taking the risk of your new boss finding out if they aren’t, which could start you on the wrong foot in your new job with your boss losing trust. Keep it confidential until you’re allowed to share, then let your friend know that you’re sorry you couldn’t share but you were instructed not to do so before. Congrats on the fellowship.

    7. Snark No More!*

      This is not lying. This is being discreet. When your friend asks about your updated profile, you tell them you were asked to be discreet. It’s a normal business thing.

      And I don’t understand how everyone is a “lifelong, BFFs” after knowing one another for less than a year.

  34. Amber Rose*

    I don’t care.

    I’m so burned out and exhausted and I can’t get myself to do any work because I can’t bring myself to care whether it gets done. Whether it does or not, nobody else will notice or care either so what’s the point.

    Apparently this is the limit of my work ethic. I don’t know what I’m supposed to do about it.

    1. Remember Neopets?*

      Did I write this post somehow?
      I KNOW that what I do is important and that not doing it would be a bad idea for the company and that my boss is just clueless.

      But I’m so burnt out and I keep getting asked to do things that aren’t in line with my responsibilities (because my boss is clueless) so what would happen if I just don’t do my job? Aside from my company losing out on revenue that they won’t realize because no one else knows how to handle reporting….

      1. Amber Rose*

        I asked to take on more responsibilities/cross train with the aim of proving my worth or something.

        Effectively I just demoted myself though, since now I’m seen as an assistant to someone else’s department rather than the head of my own who helps out in other places.

        It’s demoralizing.

    2. Siouxie the Banshee*

      Hello, other self. : ) I could have posted this.

      Nnothing, nothing at all about my job merits me being there beyond the paycheck, and resentful that I was presented something that is so different than the reality. And I am not sure I can muster the effort to pretend anymore. I don’t give a flying fig about their efforts to team build their failing culture. But how do you know if it is just the job, or the whole thing?

      Amber Rose, do you feel that it is your job, or any job?

      1. Amber Rose*

        Actually I don’t even think it’s my job, I think it’s just me. I’m well aware that at least a portion of these feelings stem from feeling invisible and unappreciated at work. The most praise I’ve gotten in a long time was when I found a particularly tasty pizza place to order management’s lunches last week. -_-

    3. Donkey Hotey*

      I knew I had physical dopplegangers out there, but this is the first I’ve seen of an emotional doppleganger.
      Sending hugs if acceptable and either tea or whiskey as appropriate.

      1. Over it*

        I feel the same. For the past few months I just can’t make myself work or find motivation in the career I used to enjoy. I feel ashamed to say that, but somehow it’s just too hard to do everything.

    4. Sympathetic*

      I have no words of wisdom for you, but I’ve been there, and it sucks. Hoping something changes for you soon!

    5. :(*

      It’s a bit disheartening how many of us empathize deeply with this post, yet no one has advice. :(

    6. Pickled Limes*

      I’ve hit this exact same wall. I’m sorry you’re here too, and I wish I knew how to get us all back to a place where we can care about stuff again.

      1. BubbleTea*

        It sounds like you all need a proper break, and once you’ve had some time to reset mentally, to consider whether there are problems in your job that you can cope with if you get enough rest and downtime, or if there are fundamental problems you can’t live with or fix.

        I know paid time off can be really scarce in some jobs but I have found I risk burnout if I don’t take a full week off at least a couple of times a year, and ideally more than two days in a row every quarter. Just before Christmas I hit the wall where I not only didn’t care but also couldn’t work, I just felt overwhelmed by it all. Between two days off sick, three days paid time off and various bank holidays and weekends, I got two clear weeks off and came back able to function again. It took several days before I could wind down though.

    7. IFeelYa*

      I have definitely been at that point many times this year. I don’t have advice because the very root of it is how upper management or administration does not address it even when people are pointing it out repeatedly.

    8. Tofu pie*

      I was also in this situation. I literally could not work any more. Even replying to basic emails was overwhelming.

      I saw my doctor who wrote me a medical certificate to take two weeks off work. I just stayed home and slept. Frankly I couldn’t care less what happened at work – someone else took over, as they always do, and certain jobs didn’t get done but that wasn’t my problem.

      Sorry you’re experiencing burnout. It sucks. Your mental health is so important so I hope you have the right support system you deserve.

  35. Epsilon Delta*

    Graduate school!

    I have the opportunity to get a Master’s degree with tuition reimbursement from my employer. I do not want to go to school just to go to school, but I do think a master’s would be valuable for my career progression and contributing a higher quality of work. The trouble is I don’t know whether it would be best to pursue a technical master’s or an MBA. I am not sure whether I want to get on the management track or continue on the technical track. Obviously I need to figure that out before getting a graduate degree, but I’m wondering if others have faced the same choice and how you determined which path to take.

    The other issue is that while it has generous terms, my employer will only reimburse $5,000 per calendar year due to IRS tax limits. Many masters programs cost way more than that, even if they’re designed to be part time. Some I’ve looked at are nearly $1,000 per credit, so taking just one or two courses a semester would put me over the tuition reimbursement limit. I know there are online programs and other less expensive options, but I’m not sure at this point if they would be a good fit. If it turns out that I’d need to cover a large portion of my tuition, I wonder if the master’s is truly necessary from a financial perspective. I work in tech where credentials don’t always carry as much weight as they do in other fields. There’s still a lot of room for advancement and salary growth without the graduate degree. I know people who work as high level developers and architects without a master’s, and I know people who are managers without MBAs.

    Have you made a similar choice between a masters and MBA? How did you decide? And how did you determine that the cost was an appropriate investment in terms of salary growth compared to contuinuing to gain experience on the job/through specific trainings?

    1. New Grad*

      Are you looking into local colleges? My master’s program was roughly 4k a semester, not including textbook costs and that was for 12 units. That was for an MFA. Perhaps MBA’s are different? I would say look into grants your school would offer. I think most grad schools in the US, Fafsa won’t cover anymore, HOWEVER, my grad school still had us fill out our fafsa and we were awarded university grants, which was like 3K a semester for mine. So maybe along with grants offered by your university, you probably won’t have to pay much out of pocket. I graduated without any debt and it is a GREAT feeling!

      I can’t speak to the MBA vs. a regular Masters, but from what I’ve read of this site, it seems like the consensus is that work experience trumps all, lol. So unless your future plans will make an MBA necessary, then you’d be safe doing either and then continuing to have your work experience speak for itself alongside your masters. Maybe consider speaking to your employer too. Since they are reimbursing you, perhaps chat about if they have advice on what they feel would be the long term benefit of those degree paths, and if they have something they recommend.

      1. Epsilon Delta*

        I started with my nearby state schools. They are really affordable for undergrad, but surprisingly expensive for the master’s programs I’m looking at! Similar price to the private universities nearby.

        From what I’ve seen so far, the only way to get discounts/grants for grad school is to be a full time student. No financial aid for people working full time while doing the master’s on the side. Some of the school websites come out and say it explicitly.

    2. Carol*

      Would you pay for this without the discount? That can be one good way to figure out how much you really want it.

      You could look at it as future-proofing–I know some older, seasoned, experienced workers who got laid off during the pandemic due to their lack of credentials. Sucks, but something to watch out for in the future.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’m not in tech, so grain of salt, but I was debating between a specialized masters in my career field and a general MBA. I ended up opting for the MBA because it gave me more long-term options if I do ever decide to change fields.

      Cost-wise: I actually ended up accidentally getting two masters degrees at the same time, so I was a full-time student while working for four years. My tuition reimbursement program from work ($3600/year cap) covered approximately one semester per year, and I paid for the other semester out of pocket. (The current graduate tuition for the school I attended is roughly $450 per credit, with 9 credits in a semester being full time.)

      I didn’t actually need either of the masters degrees for my career though – I’m a perpetual student. I’ve gotten a second bachelor degree since then and I’m still attending classes at the local community college. So I didn’t put a whole lot of consideration into it as an investment, more like, “I’m going to continue my education in some field no matter what, so it might as well be some field reasonably useful.” (I don’t judge your hobbies, haha. Some people juggle geese. I collect degrees and certifications. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )

    4. JustaTech*

      Something to consider about the financials: while you’re in grad school, even part-time, any existing student loans will be paused (I think you have to tell your lender). So you don’t have to make payments and I’m pretty sure that it won’t accrue interest in that time either (but do check!).

      My master’s hasn’t done wonders for my career, but doing it pulled me out of a really bad headspace, and I really enjoyed it, so there was value to it.

    5. Tuckerman*

      FYI, the IRS tax limits don’t apply to job-related graduate classes, unless there was a very recent change. I had a tuition benefit while getting my Master’s and only the non-job related classes were taxable after the 5K. Even though I was pursuing a degree in a different field, many of the classes I took were relevant to my job at the time, so they were not included in that limit.

    6. Penelope Toodlesworth*

      Not to sound like a salesperson, but consider Western Governors University. It’s a fully accredited nonprofit all online school that is competency-based, meaning you can go as fast as you want to. If you have prior experience, you can test out of a course or zip through a project in no time. You’re not held back or slowed down by an arbitrary semester-based calendar or a professor’s syllabus. I mention it because tuition is a flat fee ($3,500-$4,000, depending on the degree) per 6-month term. If you accelerate and go fast, you can earn it in a single term or two and have zero to minimal out of pocket expenses once the tuition assistance is factored in.

      After two decades in my field, I did my bachelor’s in four months and am on track to do my master’s in three months, all covered by my company’s tuition assistance. Two free degrees. No downside to that.

    7. Nonprofiteer*

      I was in a similar position a few years back in terms of degree choices and employer reimbursement. MBAs and MPAs are pretty common in my field, but I went for a well-regarded academic program (interdisciplinary) that was interesting to me and had some relevance to my work. I went part-time (mostly one class per term) and wound up doing the whole program online. Tuition and fees I paid were tax-deductible against some consulting work I do.

      A big reason people do MBAs is for deep networking in their industry and city. If that wouldn’t useful for you, it may not be worth thousands of your own dollars and all of your free time!

  36. Anon COVID boss*

    Any ideas on how I can compartmentalize finding out my boss is an anti-masker and anti-vaxxer? They had a conversation on our team’s chat application that I don’t think they realized the entire team could see that was full of conspiracy theories and hatred of Anthony Fauci. I’m not at a place in my life where I have the emotional energy to job hunt, but finding this out has been hard for me to deal with. In other ways, they are a very supportive boss who always gives me stretch opportunities, talks me up to senior management, etc.

    1. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      Are you vaccinated? Are you allowed to wear a mask at work? If yes to both, you can compartmentalize with the awareness it doesn’t affect you.

      1. Donkey Hotey*

        Agreed with CiP. Get your shots, wear your mask, and let them jeopardize their own health.

      2. Anon COVID boss*

        Thanks. Getting my second dose today, and will continue to wear a mask any time I’m in the office, even though I know my boss doesn’t follow those rules when they are in the office. Our company offers vaccine time off, and I felt weird submitting my timecard for approval with it knowing that my boss will think I’m a sheep who has been brainwashed for getting the vaccine. But, let’s hope they can compartmentalize their view of me too :)

    2. JustaTech*

      You’ve learned something important about your boss, so tuck that away in the back of your brain. But if your boss ever starts to make you think that you’re nuts, or starts gaslighting you, remember that, hey, they believe in conspiracy theories!

      It’s disappointing to learn that your boss, who is a big factor in your work life and career is … not always reality based. As long as they aren’t actively jeopardizing your health the best you can do is not think about it, and take advantage of every opportunity they give you.

    3. tangerineRose*

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with that. It’s frustrating to find that someone you respected is like this.

    4. tangerineRose*

      I haven’t figured out why some people are so angry at Fauci. It seems like most of the people who don’t like him seem to think that he should somehow magically immediately know everything there is to know about a brand-new virus. I saw a bit from the news where a man is complaining that the number of masks to wear has changed from 0 to 1 to 2 and somehow thinks that Fauci should have always known the right number.

      I don’t know, maybe people are mad about the coronavirus, and since he frequently delivers bad news, they blame him? I don’t get it.

      1. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

        I think it’s a combination of propaganda needing a boogeyman and the appearance of flip-flopping in the early days of the pandemic. The totally normal and reasonable truth, which is that as we learned more the advice changed and some mistakes were made, has been twisted into a view that the advice was false all along. It is politically useful for certain people to push that view.

        1. Crabby Patty*

          Yeah, it’s too bad more people don’t understand scientific inquiry and the data collection process within, and how further collection can either verify the known or produce new knowledge.

          What’s worse is that many people don’t seem to want to understand scientific inquiry.

    5. Roci*

      Agree with Cheesecake, and here are some thoughts that have helped me:
      – Recognizing the grief and shock that comes from losing respect for someone you care about.
      – Remembering that there are many groups deliberately and unintentionally perpetrating mis/disinformation about this topic, and fear and stress make people confused and easily misled. Your boss may be wrong but they may not be malicious.
      – Try to separate their words/beliefs from their actions. If they follow vaccine/covid safety procedures, that is something positive. If they don’t, focus your attention there.
      – Of course you can speak up against misinformation and conspiracy theories when you see/hear them. But remember that it is not your duty to convince anyone of the truth, and in fact it is almost impossible to do so. Forgive and absolve yourself of this responsibility. My brain often “helpfully” comes up with “surefire winning arguments” and I have to remind myself that I don’t need to practice this debate, I’m not debating anyone, it’s not my job to change anyone’s mind.

      But do take note for the future because someone can be very nice and supportive but if their judgment is this misguided, it might have implications for your job/the business. Good luck to us!

    6. Piano Girl*

      I have found that since I received my second vaccine (Pfizer) I don’t get as angry at those who are refusing to get their shots. I still think they should (and it has still colored my opinion of them) but at least I’m not seething inside.

  37. New Grad*

    What’s considered a professional hairstyle for women? I just recently graduated and am working my first professional job but I always feel like my ponytail hair makes me look student-y, which is weird since so many women I work around, a slicked back ponytail seems to look so well on them.

    Maybe it’s because my hair is just so much more naturally frizzy. No matter how much I condition or gel my hair back, there’s always curly baby strands that refuse to go down.

    1. OyHiOh*

      I have unabashedly curly hair. The texture is such that it simply will not slick down or otherwise behave like straight hair.

      I have an asymetrical cut that hangs long on one side of my face and is short enough not to curl everywhere else. I use a claw clip for work to gather the pieces closes to my face and move them more over my ear because I cannot stand hair in my face when I’m trying to work. I air dry and don’t use product most of the time so it sets in loose soft coils.

      I add anti frizz and shine serums to my shampoo and conditioner (Formula of Beauty, the add-ons are available at Target) – those make a big difference for “cared for hair” rather than “rolled out of bed and didn’t bother doing my hair this morning.”

    2. CatCat*

      I use a gibson tuck, which I learned about on this web site! Go here for tutorial: http://www.saralynnpaige.com/style/simple-gibson-tuck/

      It is easy to master and will look less “student-y” than a ponytail. I don’t know if it will work for you, but it is worth checking out.

      My hair is mostly straight, but with these random bits that just love to curl up near one of my temples (though that seems to have died down a bit as it’s gotten longer) and flat iron has helped with that in the past.

    3. ratatatcat*

      I think a little frizz is just a part of life that colleagues should not notice, but I also have naturally frizzy/curly hair so maybe I’m on the defensive…

      I like those big prong clippies – they can give a decent updo or a pulled back look (don’t know how to describe this really but like….pulling back hair on either side?), which I think works a bit better with curly hair than a ‘strict ponytail’.
      A low, loose bun is also good, and I think makes the frizz seem like it’s just part of the ~’gently romantic hairstyle’~ vibes.
      I sometimes keep a brush at work and just occasionally brush the top down a bit during the day which helps a little.

    4. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      As long as hair is clean and not getting into things (if you work with say food or heavy machinery), I think any hairstyle can be professional. Frizzy/unruly hair is natural and normal. I wouldn’t stress about it.

    5. RagingADHD*

      Unless you’re in the military or something with a very strict appearance code (like, I don’t know, a flight attendant maybe?) then a professional hairstyle is anything that looks well-kept, splits the difference between super-trendy and dated, and looks good on you.

    6. TechWriter*

      I think it really depends on the industry/workplace/role!

      I have super low maintenace mostly-straight hair, so I’ve never done more than wash and brush my hair or pull it back in a ponytail throughout the day. I work in tech, and when we had an office, the more casual side of business casual was the norm for most of us (with people on other ends of the spectrum depending on their role; from the occasional dev in cargo shorts and a t-shirt to admins in hose and skirts hairspraying and curling/straightening their hair in the washrooms every morning.)

      If the other women at your work have ponytails, you’re fine in your ponytail. I’d hazzard you’re the only one who thinks your ponytail looks studenty. Imposter syndrome anxieties!

    7. LadyByTheLake*

      As someone approaching 60, the best advice I can give is to accept the hair that you have and look for styles that work for that hair (and your face shape) rather than trying to copy styles for a different kind of hair. My hair is completely straight and will not curl no matter what I do. I can do the slick back look no problem (and a classic bob), but I spent years coveting loose, tousled hairstyles that look great for people that have curly hair. I was probably in my forties when a friend (who has gorgeous frizzy hair that I’ve always wanted) was going on about how she wanted to just have straight hair in a simple bob and I was complaining about how I wished I could just do the casual updo that looks great with her hair and then we had to laugh.

      1. ThatGirl*

        absolutely. accepting what my hair will and won’t do and what I am willing to do TO it has gone a long way – as does having a good hairdresser.

    8. 867-5309*

      I look about 12-years-old with a pony tail. :) I don’t think anyone else notices so yours is probably fine also.

    9. Llellayena*

      Just about anything as long as it’s reasonably neat (like, not just tumbled out of bed)! Ponytail is fine, frizz or no frizz. I have very straight long hair and used to have it in a ponytail every day. I switched to using a clip instead of a band, in part to manage end-of-day knots, and that looked professional to me. Then I got a hairstyle with bangs and I’m able to leave it down since it now stays out of my face. I’ll occasionally use a clip, but not often. My hair does frizz sometimes, no one has ever commented (I generally don’t use products).

    10. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Hello, I basically look like Merida from the movie Brave in terms of length and texture :) My go to is a nautilus bun.

      1. MacGillicuddy*

        I think of a ponytail as being higher up on the back of the head.

        In a clip or rubber band at the base of your neck doesn’t count as “ponytail” IMO.

    11. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

      I have very, very curly hair myself. A low, loose bun has been my go-to hairstyle – it’s quick and easy to do, but looks professional and put-together.

    12. Anonbeth*

      I have curly/frizzy hair too. I spent a long long time (in the early 2000s, when sheet-straight hair was The thing) trying to slick my hair back perfectly smooth. If your hair is like mine, it’s just not gonna happen. I would just accept that your hairstyles are always going to be a little curlier/softer than your colleagues’, and that’s fine. Since you won’t get that slicked-back look from the front, you can play with side parts or kinda rolling and pinning the wings of your hair back to frame your face from the front, before doing whatever style in the back.

      Styles I like (my industry is the casual side of business casual): low ponytail, braid, french braid, low bun, high bun. With the buns you can make them a little looser so some curls are free. A Gibson tuck, like someone mentioned, or an updo with bobby pins or a hair fork are also fun and can be more forgiving with curly hair than straight. Some of these styles can look a little more prom-hair than professional so figure out what you like.

      Also, if you’re interested, you could look into curly hair products like leave-in conditioners and moisturizers that might make your hair have more of a soft curl/wave look than the frizzy look. I’ve looked on naturallycurly dot com in the past.

    13. Robin Ellacott*

      I wear a ponytail or casual chignon so often that kindly staff lose their minds if I ever wear my hair loose. My hair is wavy and by no means smoothly slicked back. Sometimes I make a hole in the hair over the elastic and push the elasticked part hair back trough the hole to make a few rolls at the back (like those weird loop things they had in the 90s). I use clips at the side to tame the wispy bits, and I think it looks perfectly respectable. I can’t stand hair in my face and sticking to my lips.

      I am in a senior management role and nobody blinks at my perennial ponytail (apart from a sense that some people I work with think it looks prettier when loose). I’m sure unless you work in a VERY formal or image conscious field, it will be fine.

    14. Esmeralda*

      Depends on where you work. I have wavy to curly hair (depending on how long it is) which will never be smooth or lie flat. I pay for fairly expensive cuts so that even when it’s crazy curly/sexy/ cuuuuute, it never looks messy or untended. And it’s always clean. I’ve never had any trouble being seen as very professional, because that’s how I approach my worm. I’ve worked mostly in academia but also in large corporate offices.

      Lol, maybe the RBF helps…

  38. Sienna*

    Anyone else following the story regarding the Washingtonian Magazine CEO threatening to demote her employees and take away their benefits if they do not return to the office? She did it via an editorial in the Washington Post with a thin veneer of lamenting her “lost work culture” like things such as office birthday parties and whining about minute things that amount to nothing more than presenteeism. The magazine has proven over the course of the past year that working from home has worked out quite well for them and their bottom line, but it sounds like the CEO misses lording over her minions in an office setting and needs that ego boost again.

    It made me think of all the past poor management I worked for, to include my current job where they treat their employees like livestock and wonder why they can’t keep anyone in a position or can’t hardly hire anyone. And those are typically the very same ones running to the news saying things like “people don’t want to work anymore”, no they don’t want to work for YOU and deal with YOUR abuse anymore.

    Thankfully, the entire editorial staff has banded together in solidarity to refuse to publish to show her the true value of their labor. I hope this inspires others as well, it certainly has inspired me.

    1. AnonnyMouse*

      Argh — just missed seeing this and double-posted. :(

      Following on Twitter, and there’s already been at least one “this isn’t how employment law works” comment regarding the CEO’s threat to make them all contractors.

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        That was my first thought when I read that (awful, truly awful) opinion piece — that’s not how employment law works!

      2. Sienna*

        no problem! But I am quite amazed by her brazeness. There’s also former employees popping up on twitter talking about all of her other illegal, under-the-table, actions over the years. She really set herself up for failure with this one.

        Wasn’t there another CEO that put their foot in their mouths recently? I swear I saw something a week or so back dealing with yet another CEO also doing something underhanded and brazenly admitting to it via the company blog. A tech company I believe.

        Either way, I’m glad to see more workers banding together for better working conditions for all.

        1. Elle Woods*

          Are you thinking of Basecamp? The CEO, Jason Fried, recently announced via the company blog that employees could no longer discuss politics or societal issues at work, and got rid of things like fitness benefits, wellness allowance, farmer’s market share, and continuing ed allowances. About 1/3 of employees quit.

          2. Observer*

            What happened at BaseCamp was a very different thing, though. TERRIBLY handled, and they are doing some (very necessary) backpedaling. But nothing at all illegal. Just stupid.

      3. CG*

        I was thinking about starting a conversation about that article in the open thread today too, so I’m glad I was beaten to it! (lol at the Washington Post commenter who said, “Glad the WAPO is getting the Bond villain point of view.”) And yeah, when I got to the part of the article that basically said, “if someone’s not in the office to celebrate people’s birthdays, management should change their status to contractor”, I IMMEDIATELY thought of AAM’s points about the legal distinctions between contractors and employees.

        Holy crap. As a Washingtonian, this made me think that City Paper, WaPo, and DCist are all going to start sending job postings to Washingtonian staff asap…

    2. BlueWolf*

      Haha came here to see if someone posted about this yet. I couldn’t believe that when I read it this morning (jk, I totally believe it because I read enough Ask A Manager to know these attitudes are all too common).

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I am told the Washington Post comments section has now spilled over into Twitter.

    5. Sienna*

      She’s now posted an apology that The Daily Beast reported on, but now it’s trending on twitter and the story’s gotten legs. Now more of her previous illegal labor practices are popping up and employment lawyers are weighing in.

      She could have just sat there and ate her food but noooooo she just had to spill out her grievances in a poorly written op-ed. I’m also kind of giving WaPo the side eye for even allowing that op-ed but I guess in newspaper currency clicks are king and they certainly got a lot of them today.

    6. JustaTech*

      Yeah, I just found out that we didn’t hire for a desperately needed position because the candidate wanted to WFH (at least partly, maybe full time) so that they could pick their kids up from school because there still isn’t any after-school care running.

      And my VP said no.
      He’s being beyond unreasonable about WFH already (company policy is 1-2 days a week on-site if you’re not lab staff, he wants us 5 days a week, if you’re in the lab or not).

      What the heck is wrong with these bigwigs who want people on site for no reason except to lord over them? If your company can’t show if people were productive during quarantine, that’s the company’s problem. And if people *were* productive, why mess with something that’s working?

    7. Spearmint*

      I’m appalled at the brazenness of that CEO and supportive of the solidarity shown by employees. It does make a bit sad to think that most workers in most industries, even professionals, don’t have the leverage push back on something like this so strongly (because they lack large social media presences and network contacts in national media).

    8. Absurda*

      Yeah, I came here just to talk about this. After years of reading AAM, I think it’s safe to say that some office cultures deserve to die.

      I’ve worked remotely for years and most of the time have had managers that live in other states and I collaborate with folks all over the world. It’s totally possible. That this CEO can’t figure out how to do it speaks more to her failings as a manager than her employees’ abilities to work.

      Lastly: does she really think celebrating birthdays is what builds office culture/a sense of team work? I mean really???!!

      1. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

        Let’s hope the person born on Leap Day doesn’t work there!

      2. Mina The Company Prom Queen*

        I know, right? I’ve been working remotely for years too. It can (and does) work!

        Also agree on that CEO’s thing about celebrating birthdays. Doesn’t she have bigger fish to fry? LOL!

    9. I should really pick a name*

      “The hardest people to let go are the ones you know”

      Wow.

      Come back to the office or you’re first on the chopping block.

    10. Observer*

      I just googled “Washingtonian Magazine”. You know how Google has a box with a few related questions when you search? The first question is “How do I cancel my subscription to the Washingtonian magazine” It looks like this has bitten the REALLY hard. Also, there are as many hits about the staff refusing to publish as about the actual editorial.

      Which would explain why she’s kind of apologized. Kind of. But at least she’s walked back the threats.

    11. OtterB*

      I saw that. It connected in my mind with all the people complaining that they can’t hire people for jobs (especially restaurant jobs) because they want to offer low “tipped wage” pay and not enough hours for someone to get by, and isn’t it awful that expanded unemployment lets these people laze around.

      And to me it boils down to “I want my peons back! I’m entitled to my peons!”

  39. blaargh*

    I started at a small consulting firm a few months ago. There are usually 2 – 4 people on each client engagement. There was a project that I was tangentially involved with but someone else was supposed to be doing the bulk of the work – or so I thought. Earlier this week my boss sort of threw something that had to be done for the client at me and seemed to expect me to do it, even though I hadn’t been told I was really on the project or given any context. It really didn’t take me too long and the client completely loved it and me. Today in a meeting (related to that task) my boss all of a sudden said “blaargh will be in charge of this going forward”. What?!? When was that decided? No one told ME that. What does that even mean?

    This has happened a couple times. Is this normal, am I overreacting? It’s probably a compliment since they think I do good work, but I would just like better communication around things. I think a part of it is that the business is growing quickly and the founders are overwhelmed.

    2. PX*

      Not really normal but also not unexpected in small companies and with not-so-great managers! In particular what I hear about consulting definitely implies that roles/assignments are very fluid and liable to change at the whim of someone senior, so not really surprised. Would recommend you try and have more 1-1’s with your manager, learn more about their management style (some of them are just that kind of person who decide stuff and announce it right there and then) and perhaps see if you can gently train them into at least giving you more warning of upcoming changes!

    3. AllTheBirds*

      Sound like you have to take the lead on opening a discussion around this, maybe asking Boss to fill you in prior to him making general announcements…? And see how it goes from there.

    4. consulting*

      I am at a small consulting group, and this doesn’t sound that far out of bounds. Especially with WFH, the little interactions that happen where I am either overhearing conversations or part of hallway conversations are gone, so sometimes I miss out on context. I can relate to your questions, because I have a similar dynamic sometimes, where I get pulled onto something others clearly know much more about. I realized people are busy and may not think to offer info because they know what they know. But since we are consultants, it’s also our job to proactively ask questions. We also have standing meetings where we can request info or assistance, and sometimes I have to just send messages requesting a meeting so I can get up to speed. You have to really dig into showing initiative at these places because you’re all responsible for keeping the place open on some level.

      One benefit is that, at places like this, you may have a lot of flexibility to fill gaps and develop new skills you might not at other shops. Sounds like you did a great job, so keep doing good work, and push yourself to engage more with your boss or other folks about things that are going on if you need to. If you do this, you may also get brought into things earlier, even at the pitch/proposal stage, so you have a better idea what might be coming at you.

  40. El Camino*

    I saw an unintentionally viral tweet yesterday about employees making sure it’s a good time for the company before they use their PTO and they were getting ratio’ed like mad, and completely shocked by folks’ responses. I thought folks here might appreciate it. Link in comment below.

      2. WellRed*

        My god, one of the comments was along the lines of: “If you are on vacation, you can be sure I plan to call or email you if I need things!” I think she was an atty.

    2. OtterB*

      I noticed that tangentially. I’m not going to wade into a fight on Twitter, so I didn’t read much of it. But Twitter isn’t good for nuance. My opinion, from what I saw, is that people aren’t recognizing that there are legitimately two competing interests. Your PTO is part of your compensation and you need to be allowed to take it, so “never take time off unless there’s nothing happening at work” is a no go. But your boss and your organization have a legitimate interest in managing when people take PTO. In some jobs – things with big project milestones, things with a known quarterly or annual crunch time – it’s pretty common to schedule your time around the business needs. Things that are less cyclical, especially things that are hourly and coverage-based, yeah, this is something management should deal with so that people can take their time off.

      1. Mina The Company Prom Queen*

        That’s where a manager’s ability to approve or decline PTO requests comes in. If your manager knows that the time you requested won’t be a good time to take PTO, they have the right to decline the request and ask that you take your PTO another time. The only time there is something wrong with this is if the manager is unreasonable. Employees still have the right to take their PTO as it is part of their compensation. And managers have the option of approving or declining the requested days. It shouldn’t be held against an employee if they request PTO at a time when a manager doesn’t feel they should ask in the first place.

      2. AcademiaNut*

        Comments are moderated (an anti-spam measure), so the double post lets the person respond immediately, with the link showing up after Alison reviews it.

  41. Drtheliz*

    How do I tell people (colleagues) I’m pregnant without, for want of a better phrase, making it weird? I’m not going to be available after mid-August, so it’s starting to matter. I have definitely “popped”, so I don’t have to tell people I see in person (few as they are) but professionally nobody but my boss and an IT person has seen me below the shoulders for six months.

    I was trying “be vague” and just saying “not available in September or October” but I apparently worried somebody, which… Oops? Any tips?

    1. NowWhat?465*

      I would just be matter of fact about it. “Hi all, just for reference I’ll be on parental leave starting mid-August and expect to be back in early November. You should see the blocked dates on my calendar in case you try to schedule something with me. I’ll follow up with those who need details for coverage individually in the coming months.”

    2. Ann Perkins*

      Is there a particular reason you’re not just saying you’re expecting at this point? Be matter of fact about it as it comes up, it’s not weird to be pregnant. “Yes, we’re expecting and due (date)! The plan is for me to take (x amount of time off). I should be back (y date) barring no problems.

    3. JelloStapler*

      I guess I am confused as to why it would be weird to share you are pregnant? Just say it “You may not know, but I’m pregnant and due in August so you’ll need to talk to Fergus about the Teapot Kiln while I am on leave.”

    4. elle*

      I have a co-worker who, as far as I know, never announced she was pregnant and just one day “went on leave” with a vague out of office saying that, n return date, no explanations. I heard her teammate say it was maternity leave and I was shocked. I guess it’s not a big deal but hiding it makes it seems wildly awkward and also strange because I legit thought she was on vacation for a week not on maternity leave which is kind of important for how to communicate with her/her team going forward. I guess what I’m saying is, it’s not weird to announce you’re pregnant and taking maternity leave. What makes it weird is avoiding telling people.

      1. Generic Name*

        Yeah, I had a coworker who basically did the same. I suspect she told a few people, but since everyone was working remotely, word didn’t exactly spread. She didn’t even tell her teammates and we weren’t “officially” told until HR sent around the birth announcement. All we knew was she would be going on leave for a few months, no reason given. It was pretty weird, and it’s made me question her overall judgement.

      2. twocents*

        Exactly. If I found out by accident that your leave was parental and that you’d deliberately avoided mentioning it, well, not every pregnancy is welcome news and it’d seem this pregnancy wasn’t.

    5. FlyingShrimp*

      Hi! I’m also having a pandemic pregnancy and am going on leave next week. I shared with my team during a team meeting and then the directors of my organization (I work at a small nonprofit), something along the lines of “It’s a weird time but I have some happy personal news, I’m expecting a baby mid-may. My tentative leave dates will be X-X, but we’ll keep you posted as plans develop.” and everyone came back with general excitement.

      As it’s gotten closer to leave actually starting, I’ve just added a note to the end of emails with colleagues that I work with regularly along the lines of “FYI I’ll be starting maternity leave [date], so [temp] will be covering projects like this while I’m out.”

      As others have said, just be matter of fact about it!

    6. WellRed*

      I’m not clear on why you can’t just tell them? You’re making it weird my treating it as a state secret. Congratulations, though!

    7. JustMyImagination*

      I had to virtually announce my pregnancy last year. It is a little awkward! With Zoom meetings, there really isn’t much of the before and after meeting chit chat where you can let people know. Instead the announcement feels so much more formal.

      I told my manager during a 1:1 meeting and she made a little slide to include in our next group meeting. I then let everyone know it wasn’t a secret so they could feel free to mention it to others.

      1. BubbleTea*

        Yes, I told a few people during phone calls I was having anyway (first my grandboss, then my line manager, then my supervisor, then the rest of my team, then whoever happened to be calling me) and when we FINALLY had a much-delayed all-staff meeting I got the meeting chair to put it on the agenda so I could tell everyone. We typically do a little “who has exciting life news?” section at the end where people mention new babies, pets, vaccines if they want to, etc so it didn’t feel weird. An email would have done, but if we hadn’t had a meeting I’d reached the point where I’d need to email because we needed to plan cover.

    8. MaineGirl*

      I had the same experience. I’m due in 2 weeks and no ones been in the office since last Spring. I announced on an all staff holiday call when we were all asked about something we were looking forward to in 2021. My boss and a few other colleagues knew already but it was nice to get it out in the open. I’ve been casually mentioning it to coworkers since then as we talk about projects and plans for the summer and fall.

    9. Observer*

      If you don’t want to make it weird just say it. Be matter-of-fact and factual. That’s it.

      Hiding it, not telling people, being cutesy are the things that might make it weird. A straightforward statement won’t.

  42. NowWhat?465*

    Has anyone else noticed an uptick in interviewers being less flexible and direct with interview times now that everything is done via Zoom or video chat?

    I just got a second round interview, which will be two 45 minute interviews with other department heads, followed by a 30 minute follow up with the hiring manager. Except they said they may not schedule all interviews on the same day, so they would like multiple blocks of 1 hour that I’m free over the next three weeks and they’ll get back to me. I’m more of a fan of dates and times and making something work in there, not indefinite holds on my calendar until they get back to me.

    I was skeptic about this job for a few reasons but decided to move forward to the next round in case I could get more details. But this has turned me off even more. For reference, I’m a professional with 7+ years in my industry and have never run into this issue until interviewing this year so it seems odd to me.

    1. often trapped under a cat*

      During the year that we’ve been remote, the bosses at my place have seen their calendars fill up with meetings as people who normally would just drop by their offices to talk about something instead have to actually schedule a conversation. It’s not unusual in my company for someone’s day to be fairly back-to-back with meetings. There isn’t a lot of time left for doing interviews. Or they have to move things around to clear an hour, and that takes time too.

      1. NowWhat?465*

        I understand that, as I’m in the same boat with meetings. I find it easier as a candidate to be given timeslots and then say what works for me, rather than pre-emptively blocking every free 45 minute block for the next three weeks in hopes that one of those slots will work for them.

        1. often trapped under a cat*

          I agree that it seems clumsy, but if it’s HR doing this, they may not have any choice.

          But as someone who has been a hiring manager, there are times when I just can’t give a whole day over to interviewing. Or when I and the other person who will be the new hire’s supervisors can’t interview at the same time (or even on the same day).

          If the job is worth it to you, you’ll have to deal with the uncertainty of this stage. And I think you don’t have to hold all your free time open until you hear back. A reasonable interviewer will understand that life happens, even in this day and age. If they don’t, that might be a sign that this is not the right place for you.

  43. Hotdog not dog*

    Thanks to all who answered my question last week about when the clock starts ticking for 2 weeks notice! The punch line turned out to be that instead of putting my last day as May 14th as I intended or 2 weeks from whenever I was able to notify all 5 of the people I provided admin support to, my manager accidentally put in my last day as the day I gave notice. It’s apparently too much work to reinstate my system access, so I ended up with an extra 2 weeks (paid!) I suppose the people I never managed to track down to tell them I was leaving must have noticed by now…

    1. ratatatcat*

      I do love to see a powertripping boss get their comeuppance! congrats on the 2 weeks!

    2. Blue Eagle*

      Hey, congrats on the extra two weeks. I remember commenting on your post last week and am glad that everything seems to have worked out in your favor.
      And sending good vibes that the new job turns out to be everything you are hoping for!

    3. Siouxie the Banshee*

      You had that good karma coming! I hope that your time in-between will be inspiring and refreshing!!!

  44. 3Owls*

    Hypothetical question: You are a manager, you receive an email from someone you’ve never met with screenshots of Facebook posts an employee made, in a private group, complaining about their job, customers, etc. Nowhere in these posts or on the employee’s profile do they say where they work. The only place they say where they work is on LinkedIn, so the person who took the screenshots and sent the email had to do some digging to find out where the employee worked.

    As a manager, what do you do?

    1. Reba*

      As long as the comments are not egregious (racist, violent, or exposing customers’ or coworkers’ info) I’d be inclined to do nothing.

      1. pancakes*

        Same, and I would think less of the person who went digging if the comments aren’t egregious in those ways.

    2. JB*

      Assuming you are not concerned about the posts your employee made (which it sounds like you don’t need to be, unless the complaining contained privileged or private information about clients/the company that really shouldn’t be shared) I’d say just have a private discussion with the employee and let them know that you received those screenshots, that you aren’t concerned by the content of them but that you ARE concerned for the employee’s privacy/safety and wanted them to be aware that someone did this.

      That way the employee will know they need to shut down their FaceBook tighter or that there’s a bad actor in this private group.

      It’ll definitely be an embarrassing conversation and the employee will not be happy to find out you know about things they said in private, but if you don’t say anything, this person may be doing other things to try and hurt the employee that they’re not aware of.

      1. RagingADHD*

        Yep, there’s someone trying to damage them and they need to know.

        Depending on the content of the complaints, I might want to have a different conversation at another time about whether those need following up on – is there something toxic in the environment that needs addressing, are they overworked and underpaid, are they missing out on professional development or is someone else taking credit for their work, etc?

        But if it’s normal work venting, leave it be.

      2. Bernice Clifton*

        Agreed. If the complaints aren’t egregious you don’t need to tell them as a warning, but just as a courtesy that someone is trying to get them in trouble.

      3. Mina The Company Prom Queen*

        And definitely tell the employee who it was that sent it. They should know who is trying to do this to them so they can block them.

    3. NowWhat?465*

      For me it would depend on the complaints and the group, but I’m leaning towards leaving it be.

      If there was no identifying info in the complaints, and it was general “my annoying client stressed me out today…” or “I have a coworker that cannot stop eating during meetings and it’s driving me nuts.” I honestly wouldn’t care. The fact of the matter is, work can be annoying sometimes and some people like to vent.

      Also the context of the group matters a lot. If it’s a general facebook group for people in a city/neighborhood or an alumni group that’s a lot more public and I would advise the employee against posting there as it can easily be linked back even if they don’t think it will. If it’s more so a private group such as a new moms spring 2020, extended family, or a support group where you expect a certain level of confidentiality, I would DEFINITELY want to be told if I was in the employee’s shoes. I would maybe discretely pull the employee aside and let them know they’re not in trouble, but this info was sent to you, and you just wanted to be aware that someone saw it and took the effort to show their boss.

      1. 3Owls*

        The group is a private group. It’s purpose is for people in this industry, which is notorious for overworking and underpaying it’s people, to vent. Nothing was said that we all haven’t thought at one time or another.

        1. OtterB*

          In that case I second the other people’s advice to tell the employee that (a) they aren’t in trouble, because they are venting in a group that’s made for it, without identifying their employer or customers, but that (b) someone has tried to get them in trouble and you thought they should know in case it’s part of a pattern.

        2. Observer*

          I’m with OtterB. Someone in that group is almost certainly acting in bad faith, and both your employee and the others in the group should be alerted. You can’t really do much about the rest of the group directly. But you can let your employee know.

          Then make a note for yourself that if you ever encounter the emailer, be very careful because that person is not trustworthy.

    4. Hillary*

      This won’t be a popular opinion, but for me it’s worrisome. At best it tells me the employee doesn’t have good judgment about where they vent. At worst (and this depends on the content) it’s sharing company information inappropriately. People always think their vaguebooking is more vague than it actually is, and I know people who’ve been fired for this.

      1. LDF*

        Please be more critical of screenshots. The “best” case isn’t “they have bad judgement”, it’s “these screenshots aren’t even real”. Literally anyone with a modern desktop web browser can edit a website locally so it looks like anyone is saying anything and take a screenshot of that. This isn’t deepfakes-level technology, if you know how to right-click you can learn to do this in 5 minutes.

    5. fhqwhgads*

      Is it an anonymous email or seems like a real person who you happened to not know? If it’s anonymous I would assume this person knows the employee and knows where there work not due to any digging, but because they already knew.

      As a manager (which I am not currently but have been in the past), it depends. If I’d have stumbled upon the same info by myself, how would I react? That’s probably how I’d react to getting it this way too, presumably I checked for usual signs of photoshop or whatnot. If I would not have found the info concerning had it come to me from someone I knew, or from finding it myself, then I would not be concerned now.

  45. ELI*

    I am the only person in my company that does the job that I do.
    For the past nine years I have not had a vacation or even a day or two off where I do not have to answer emails and phone calls.
    On top of that, my company insists that twice a year I go to work at another “site” and perform a second job along with my original job, for only one pay. These assignments require me to be away from home for 6-weeks at a time. I have expressed in depth that I do not want to do theses assignments.
    My manager has said within the last month that I “need to prove that I am more than a glorified clerk”.
    Recently while returning from one of my (extra) work assignments, my car got damaged. When I told my manager about it they said ” if you expected me to feel sorry for sending you to another site to work, it didn’t work, I assume you have insurance”.
    I handle 10-50 million dollars worth of revenue every year.
    Am I in the wrong for being sour ?
    Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    Thanks !

    1. Reba*

      More than sour, I would say you should be looking for a job where you will be treated well!

    2. JelloStapler*

      I think it’s time to move on, they are very clearly taking advantage of you.

    3. A Nony Mouse Today*

      This brings to mind the Vonnegut quote about the “rolling donut.” I’d suggest applying said quote to your current employer and finding another job.

    4. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      1. Enforcing the vacation boundary is within your power – don’t respond to emails or phone calls on vacation, tell boss you won’t going forward
      2. Sounds like the away assignments are part of your job, not a second job. Your employer is allowed to set the terms of your employment (within reason). You could try to refuse but they might fire you. Or you could search for another job. Not sure it is reasonable to expect extra pay.

      1. ELI*

        Thanks for your reply !
        To clarify I am expected to take on a whole extra set of responsibilities ( think supervisor / safety ) and continue to do my regular salaried position.

    5. Carol*

      Oh my goodness, find a different job. For how much they clearly need you, they seem fine with treating you with disdain. Yikes.

    6. Water Everywhere*

      Are there other companies that hire for your skill set? Please start applying to them because THIS company does not value you at all. Never mind feeling sour; if you had quit on the spot at your manager’s “glorified clerk” comment, I would not at all think you were in the wrong.

    8. Natalie*

      “need to prove that I am more than a glorified clerk”.

      I think your boss is on to something here! Prove it by getting another job.

    9. Maggie*

      Of course you aren’t in the wrong- most people would job search after 6 months of that.

    10. HigherEdAdminista*

      You aren’t wrong. I would start a job search. Asking you to spend 12 weeks a year traveling to do a second job for no additional money isn’t at all reasonable. Neither is never allowing you an actual day off. Neither is the constant berating comments.

    11. AnonEmployee*

      Your job won’t change, your boss won’t change, your company won’t change, only you can. I am in a similar boat where I am the only one in my company who handles certain areas of our enterprise applications, I have no backup. But the difference is that I DO take vacations (sometimes for two weeks!) and I don’t answer the phone/emails while I’m away. I set the expectations for my boss, and he respects them. Your company has found a very loyal and dedicated employee in you and have sought to take advantage of that.

    12. I take tea*

      Your situation is absurd. I add my voice to the “please, look elsewhere”, but in the meantime Alison have some great tips about how to wean people off calling you when you are on vacation.

      1. ELI*

        I will happily take and use any suggestions.
        For the record, I have started my new job search. Keep you fingers crossed for me.
        Thanks for all of the reply’s.

  46. MeTwoToo*

    I’m contemplating not renewing my professional license for the next cycle. I have a masters in a field where I was working. I had to move to a state that does not recognize my field at the masters level, only phd, so I moved to an adjacent field that didn’t require a license. I’ve been working in that field for almost 20 years and am very happy. I’ve maintained the quarterly trainings and license and fees, thinking that I might move again and continue in my original field. Right before covid my licensing board made it more difficult to get ceus via online or at home study in order to encourage in person trainings. This is difficult but not impossible in a state that doesn’t have my license. I could take a class at the university every three years to satisfy it. Maintaining the license probably costs me around 800-1000 dollars every 3 years and I plan to retire in 10 or 12 years. Is it worth it?

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I’m a “never say never” kind of person, so if it were me, I’d maintain the license. For about $300/year, it keeps a door open for you in case life throws you a curve ball, such as unexpectedly losing your current job.

      In my field, and in the jurisdiction where I practice, it’s easier to keep your license current than to let it lapse and then have to get it reinstated, so that informs my perspective as well.

    2. ThatGirl*

      My only question is, if you change your mind in a year or two, how hard is it to get your license back? If you genuinely don’t think you’ll need or use it again, I don’t really see a problem to drop it – that would be my only consideration.

    3. Emmie*

      I let a license lapse many years ago. I wish I kept it up because the cost to recertify is not worth it because I must retest, and the benefits are minimal. I recommend you think about the likelihood you could use the license again, and whether you would gain any professional or personal advantages from being licensed. Before you make a final decision, find out if your state has any out-of-state license statuses. One of my licenses allows us to place it on hold for a period of time, and you can return to active status by completing the CEUs required during the on hold time period. If you are uncertain about maintaining it in your home state, perhaps maintaining the license would be helpful.

    4. Healthcare Worker*

      I’m in healthcare and let my license in another state lapse, and have lived to regret it. I suggest you look into the process of reactivating your license to see how onerous it may be. Reinstating my license was incredibly difficult and expensive!

  47. Zorak*

    Hi, folks, I’m looking for some advice on salary negotiations when you’re moving from a High Cost of Living city to a Low(er) Cost of Living city.

    From the research I’ve done with cost of living calculators, it looks like the salary I make in City A (about 90k), would be equivalent to making 60k in City B. My role is a bit niche so I’m having a hard time finding a ton of salary data, but I think it would be reasonable for this role to be paid up to 70k in City B. Some friends and family are telling me I shouldn’t accept a salary lower than what I currently make, but I feel like that’s going to be way off base in City B.

    I’m comfortable accepting a lower salary, but I also don’t want to undercut myself. Any advice on how to approach this?

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      Your friends and family are wrong BUT, so are you. Assuming that you are correctly paid in City A, the expectation is that you would not get that same amount in City B — you would get about 15% less. Even if the cost of living is WAY more in City A (such as 50% more), the pay differential never makes up for all that difference. As I say, it’s usually about 15% difference. So you should be looking for something in the $75k range.

      1. Zorak*

        This is a good reality check! I think you’re right that I should probably be shooting for $75k, and that feels like something I would be able to negotiate (vs pushing for >90k). Housing in City A is about twice as expensive as it is in City B, but I’m sure there are a ton of little costs I’m not thinking of! I think I’m in a good position to negotiate for a salary at the top range of the budget because 1) I have very strong, specific experience, and 2) I’m talking to multiple firms and can compare the range of what they’re offering. Thanks for your input!

    2. SomebodyElse*

      If you are asked for your salary expectations then go in with a range starting at your current salary to current +10%, but that you are in a position to negotiate and don’t want to be ruled out on the basis of salary. Let them decide then what they can or can’t offer and then go from there.

      This should be passed this info along (assuming it comes up in the phone screen) to the hiring manager, and most managers would be fine with offering you something lower based on your comments about being open.

      1. BRR*

        If Zorak thinks $60K-$70K is about the accurate range I wouldn’t suggest starting at $99K (current +10%). That’s too big of a gap and would be an immediate turn off to most hiring managers.

        One option would be to ask what the hiring range is. Also, I throw in “depending on benefits” because it usually keeps me from being ruled out if I guess too high (since all companies think they have stellar benefits) and leaves room to negotiate up if I guess too low.

        1. SomebodyElse*

          I said a range of current to current +10% with being open to negotiation not to start at current+10%… that would be weird and would be too much.

          Generally speaking that is what most people do when giving a salary range and is not unusual to see starting out. So even knowing it might be high for the market it’s a reasonable place to start. 75K would be the lowest I’d start with, and as I said, I wouldn’t want to set that low of an expectation to start.

          1. LadyByTheLake*

            Somebody Else, I think you might not be remembering that they are moving from a high priced city to a lower priced one. If Zorak were to tell an Omaha employer that their necessary salary range is a San Francisco salary to San Francisco salary +10% , the employer is going to stop the conversation right there — the gap is just going to be too huge.
            Having moved from a city in the midwest to San Francisco and back, I know of what I speak.

      2. ecnaseener*

        Eh, I don’t think just saying “this is my range but don’t rule me out based on this range” will necessarily work. They can and will rule you out based on what you tell them.

    3. fhqwhgads*

      This might not help, but did you check if your niche is in this websites salary survey from last week? It might be a long shot but could give you some more numbers to work with.

  48. Curious About HR*

    This is a question for anyone who might work in HR! I’m in higher ed, and consistently, every time we receive a company-wide email about performance reviews (whether mid-year check-ins or the full ones), my department just … ignores them. Management rarely acknowledges them and deadlines are ignored for as long as possible. It’s gotten worse since we all went remote, to the point where I seriously doubt I’ll hear anything about our latest requirement (the deadline has already passed).

    My question is: does this reflect poorly on our team? I’m currently in the lowest possible position and do not manage people, so I have no control or insight into what might be going on behind-the-scenes. All I know is that management seems very resistant to performance reviews, which is an ongoing frustration for us on the bottom. Does HR care? Is HR supposed to care?

    Thank you!

    1. jenny*

      Yes, this can reflect poorly on the people who are delaying their performance reviews. No, should not have anything to do with how people see you, lowest possible position and do not manage people.

      1. jenny*

        Are you supposed to care? Only if your manager tells you it’s part of your job to care

    2. BRR*

      HR probably cares because it’s a bottle neck for them but it shouldn’t reflect on you. I can’t imagine anybody thinks the employees on the bottom fo the org chart are the ones holding things up.

    3. Roci*

      HR is supposed to care, I can’t say if they actually do. They might be talking to management about it where you can’t see.

      In your position I would worry less about the general performance review system (since you can’t control it and it won’t reflect on you as an individual contributor) and focus on making sure you get the feedback you need from your manager. And if you get raises/anything as a result of your review, pushing your individual manager to put that through for you. Anything beyond that is out of your hands, unfortunately.

  49. Caduceus*

    Is there a level of raises that for you would be considered to offensive to accept? Should employers even be giving raises at super low levels? What are your thoughts?

    1. RagingADHD*

      No, I’m never so offended by a raise that I’d refuse to take it. That would be silly.

      I would be pretty ticked off if a minor cost-of-living adjustment were billed as a “raise”. Whether that would lead me to look for another job depends a lot on the rest of the job and the market as a whole.

      1. Caduceus*

        I’m talking like sub 1 percent, sub 500 dollars level of things being billed as a raise.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Are they calling it a *raise* or are they calling it a COL adjustment or something along those lines? There’s a big difference between “you got all 5s on your evaluation so here’s your $400 raise” and “no raises this year, but everyone gets a $400 COL bump.”

            1. But I’ll take what I can get I guess*

              Lol we might work for the same place, cause that’s the term my company uses for the annual not-even-COL “raises”

        3. Maggie*

          I mean I’d still take it, because turning down any amount of money to make a point is silly. But I would realize that they didn’t value me and then job hunt. No use in starting a fight with people who truly dont care to make a ‘point’ that they won’t even get.

        4. RagingADHD*

          That’s ridiculous as a “merit increase” of course, but if you don’t want $500 you can send it to me. What’s the point of turning it down?

        5. Mina The Company Prom Queen*

          Yep. I once worked for a company where everyone’s performance review was a laundry list of what was wrong with them. And at the end of the review employees were given a raise of a few hundred dollars. We all thought it was comical. I know I was temped to tell them to keep it because they apparently needed it more than I did, but I contained myself. Haha! Since the company now has new management, I hope they have changed their practice on that since then.

    2. CatCat*

      Unless you’re ready to quit over it immediately, I don’t think there’s anything to be gained by turning down a raise. But I do think you can alert that the raise is disappointing/not in-line with your expectations. “I appreciate that the company is giving raises. However, given my accomplishments X, Y, and Z over the year and market rates, I honestly expected the raise would be more like _______.”

      You may not even really appreciate it, but it gives you some softening of the language, while still conveying, “I’m not happy with this.”

      Then job search for opportunities that DO pay what you’re looking for. The company already has a heads up that you’re not satisfied with the raise so if they really want to retain you, they’ll fix it.

    3. Bean Bean the Dancing Machine*

      My thoughts are: Committing to pay people more is rarely an easy decision, particularly as (unlike a one time bonus) it had permanent financial consequences for an organization. This would be a lot of work by a reimbursement team/personnel to deliberately insult a group of employees – so it’s most certainly not intended as an insult, it’s what is deemed affordable (to them). My org tries to provide raises when we can – and we try to do it regularly. The regular assessment of pay/profit/loss is part of our commitment to employees and takes a LOT of work. We never cut pay, we try to give an across the board raise every year, and we look at it deliberately every year even when we suspect it might not be possible. Sometimes it’s only a small increase but it’s still an increase.

      Also: I don’t think it would be technically possible in my org! That person would move into new pay band with their colleagues and we’d have to demote the refuser to a lower level to pay them less. If someone did this on my team, I’d might actually take pleasure in demoting them to their preferred pay level.

    4. Enough*

      I consider this a cost of doing business raise. First company husband worked for gave raises (not that low) but low enough % wise. Never equal to current COLA and every one got very similar amounts and usually the same amount each year so the % got lower. But if you want your people stay you have to give them something.

    5. BRR*

      I get why it can feel offensive but I don’t think there’s anything to be gained from saying no to it. And I’m not even sure how you would refuse to accept it. If not a tiny raise, it would very likely be no raise and I would take some money over no money any day. If an employer is only doing a tiny raise they should be really transparent about things though.

    6. Observer*

      Is there a level of raises that for you would be considered to offensive to accept?

      There is no level where “refuse to accept it” is a reasonable response. In fact, I’d say that it’s not an acceptable response.

      Now “offensive to keep working there” is a different thing. If your “merit increase” (so called because it’s too low to be called a COLA) is so piddling, it’s generally a reasonable response to decide to start seriously job hunting.

    7. Nabuma Rubberband*

      I got a “raise” this year that felt like a punch in the gut (1%) after the time and effort I’ve put in. I took the raise, of course, which is the equivalent of filling my gas tank each month. And I am spending every spare moment of my non-work hours looking for a better job and manager.

    8. Sam Foster*

      Accept any and all raises. If you find them too small then change jobs. Companies have conditioned workers to not expect anything, we don’t, and yet we’re still disappointed it. So take the money and move on.

  50. AE*

    I’ve posted here a couple of times over the past few months, asking for perspective plus doing some mild venting on Ye Olde Job Search. Well, I have some Friday good news to share, which is that I am finally starting a new job in a couple of weeks, with a company/industry I am very excited about and (I’ve been in shock for a while) a 65% salary increase! (I got Alison’s How to Get a Job ebook, which I can now safely say is the best investment I have ever made.)

    I wanted to thank all of you who have offered commiseration and support, it’s been really helpful.

    5. Nabuma Rubberband*

      SOOOOOO WONDERFUL!!!! Congratulations and best of luck in the dream gig!!! : )

  51. Figgie*

    Wanted to know if this is common. One of my spouse’s coworkers told him that when he left his last job, he had banked PTO that the company paid out. However, they refused to pay him based on his current salary. They paid it out based on what he was paid during the year that he banked it. So, he got considerably less than he would have, as he’d been working for that company for 15 years.

    He told my spouse, as when my spouse retires he will get his banked PTO paid out and to check and see if this would happen to him too. My spouse did check and HR had never even heard of companies doing that sort of thing and I wondered if this was common? Seems crazy to me!

    1. elle*

      That seems super weird. How do they even know when it was “banked” — I’m assuming he kept accumulating and using PTO during those 15 years.

      1. Figgie*

        I asked and PTO is banked at the end of each calendar year (if you want it banked), so all they had to do was go back and look at what year it was banked and then paid it out based on what his salary was that year.

        And it seems super weird to me too!

        1. Pocket Mouse*

          Seems like it should be paid out at the end of the year it was earned/banked, then, since it’s essentially frozen in time. I’m not advocating for doing that either, but the way it’s currently set up, the employer is taking an interest-free loan from employees.

      2. Charlotte Lucas*

        That does seem off! And if he had used the PTO, it would have been paid out at his current pay rate.

    2. WellRed*

      It’s weird to me because had he simply taken the time off, even if it were a year after he banked it, he’d still get paid at his current salary. And just think of the work for the poor payroll person! I think that company doesn’t deal well with people leaving.

    3. Carol*

      No, this is not remotely common…and incredibly weird they would do that with 15 years of history and I assume several different pay rates, etc. That’s a lot of work for what can’t be a ton of money saved, and seems like a way to insult someone who leaves.

    4. fhqwhgads*

      If they’re in a state that requires payout of accrued PTO at separation, I’m pretty sure they’re doing this wrong. If it’s not required where they are and they’re choosing to do it this way, they’re just assholes.

  52. Anon for this*

    Please help me make sense of this meeting – what was the purpose?

    Background: I am part of department X, but in practice I work for department Y (think: part of IT department, but stationed at HR. I am not in either of those departments, though).

    Department Y does not adhere to the agreements between these departments. I have discussed this with department Y, my manager (of department X) has discussed this with department Y, and the MT’s of both departments have been in discussion about this. I have felt heard and supported by my own department X throughout, until the recent meeting with my manager’s manager (both department X):

    The manager of department X has told me (f2f meeting) that indeed, department Y does not adhere to the agreements and that this is something he hears from multiple sources. It must be hard for me to work like this. Perhaps the solution is to have someone else in my position. This has not yet been decided and a possible replacement might do exactly what I do, but may succeed. I should think about what I want carreer-wise. My direct manager has (verbally) agreed to me getting a fixed contract (earlier this year), however, nothing was set on paper (still waiting for the written review).

    I feel stabbed in the back by my own department. The issue is for management to solve. However, they not only fail to do so, but give the problem back to me.

    I realise, since nothing is on paper, that I haven’t got a leg to stand on and right now I don’t feel comfortable working for either of these departments anymore. Needless to say: I am looking for employment elsewhere (perferably within the same organisation).

    However: I am just at a complete loss about the purpose of this meeting. I haven’t been explicitly told that my job will end at the end of my current contract, however, my fixed contract seems to be no longer a viable option. I live in Europe, btw.

    Any insight in how I should see this? I’m very confused and am just trying to understand what’s going on.

    1. merope*

      It sounds as though the department X manager is letting you know that working with Department Y, with all their special quirks and issues, is the job that they need to have done. The person who will be successful in your position is the person who can work with all these issues and still deliver results. Since you are finding the issues to be significant, you may not be the best person for the job, and therefore you should consider whether you can accept working under these conditions. If you think you cannot, you should move on to a different position (the unspoken part of that sentence is that you will be moved if you don’t go voluntarily or accept the situation the way it is).

      In short, the upper level of management is happy with things the way they are and do not, at this time, wish to solve the problem in a way that would benefit you (and potentially them).

  53. Goose*

    Happy Teacher Appreciation Week, educators and staff!

    Share some happy news! How have you been celebrated this week?

    1. Susie*

      I got a few really kind notes from parents and my supervisor told me how much she valued my work on our team. That is really all I need/want. I’m coded as a teacher, but my work isn’t a traditional teaching role. Both the parent notes and the praise from my supervisor really helped my work feel seen and valued.

  54. KitKat2000*

    TL;DR: What’s your favorite <$500 home office upgrade?

    I've started a new job and have up to $500 reimbursement for any home office items in my first month. I've been working from home for a year, so I have my basic setup (chair, desk, laptop stand, external monitor, keyboard, mouse, footrest, etc.) pretty well squared away. I'd consider upgrading any of those if I could get a significant bump in quality for <$500 (so something like a standing desk or very nice chair that comes in more like $700-1000 is probably out).

    So, what are your favorite smaller quality-of-life upgrades? I've thought about a good set of noise canceling headphones (which I don't especially need at home, but might want when we return to commuting in a month or so), a whiteboard, wall mount for my monitor, better cable management, an upgraded ergo keyboard… would love ideas from the crowd on things that made a big difference for you in this price range.

    1. RagingADHD*

      Interviewing people is at least 50% of my work, so I got a nice comfortable padded headset that, while not full-on “noise cancelling” does a really good job of blocking out distractions for me. It also has good range so that when I’m on audio-only I can move around.

        1. RagingADHD*

          Mine was an ugly gaming headset, but I also got a set of vinyl decals to make it pretty. There are a number of companies that make them, and they are cut to fit different models of headset.

      2. LQ*

        Strong agree on the padded headset. I got a sony with a built in microphone, it’s blue tooth and has good range and it is so comfortable to wear 8+ hours a day in meetings. It was the most expensive headset I’ve purchased but is worth it to me.

    2. TechWriter*

      I recommend a bluetooth headseat, ideally USB charging so you don’t need to mess around with batteries. Useful for big conference calls where I’m just listening to and not actively participating, and useful in personal life for podcasts and online socialization. It’s great to be able to do dishes/laundry with a podcast, leaving my phone in one place. Or walk away from the computer to make myself a drink and do small tasks during a call or between game turns without dropping out of the conversation completely.

      Otherwise… how’s your lighting situation? A nice lamp? Need a printer or new toner/ink? Upgrade your WIFI/router? Nicer USB hub/docking station?

      1. KitKat2000*

        Lighting is an interesting question… I get very good natural light but have an earlier schedule than i’m used to, so getting better lighting for winter months might be good – but, not 100% sure how to know what I’ll want/need since it’s always nice and bright right now!

        Toner/ink is a good idea too – we just got a new printer so are set at the moment but you can never really have too much :)

      2. Skeeder Jones*

        I have a bluetooth headset because my cat loves chewing on cords so I gave up on a corded headset. Downside of bluetooth is that I have to remember to charge it and it might not last on days I have a lot of meetings.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      I was also going to say a comfortable wireless headset. I spend a lot of time on the phone and having a good wireless headset that I can wear all day is key.

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Adjustable RGBW “smart” lights that allow changing the colour and the white “colour temperature”; I have a standing lamp with 3 Hue bulbs in but other brands are available. I find good light makes a lot of difference.

    5. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I got a monitor stand with a couple of shelves underneath were I can stash my notebooks to keep the things neat. A small rolling utility cart for all of the odds and ends, so I don’t have to keep them all on my desk. An inexpensive ring light to counter the horrible overhead lighting that makes me look like a ghost. A pad for the top of the desk, which makes it a bit more comfortable to rest my arms on it. And a tilted keyboard stand that I like more than I thought I would.

    6. All Het Up About It*

      We got our home office standing desks for less than 500 at Costco. It can be done. And 100% recommend. Just for a change of pace from time to time.

      1. Formerly in HR*

        And I got mine from Craigslist, for way under your budget – companies are emptying offices, merging locations etc. Or people get rid of them.

    7. new kid*

      My little KVM switcher device (~$40) was a game changer for me. If you switch back and forth between a work set up and a home set up, you can go from one to the other with the same keyboard/mouse/monitor with just the click of a button! So simple but huge quality of life upgrade for me!

    8. Buni*

      Work backwards – when you stand up at the end of the day, what are you most glad to be done with? What twinges the most? If it’s your back / legs, then invest in a good chair. Hands or wrists aching? Keyboard. Always got a headache? Investigate in better lighting / headset / screen.

    9. SomebodyElse*

      If you have a place to work that is private, I would totally get a speaker/mic. Jabra is a brand that has them, they look like hockey pucks. I used it in the office (private office) and since I’ve been home, it is also small enough to be portable for impromptu meetings in conference rooms with questionable A/V equipment. It’s fantastic!

    10. Decidedly Me*

      Few ideas:

      Extra monitor (I have 3 – works for me, but overkill for some – I use a desktop)
      Headset
      USB hub (super cheap, but nice for switching certain devices off and on easily, like going between headset and speakers or the webcam, which I prefer being off when not in use)
      Under desk bike (I have a DeskCycle 2 and really love it – helps with movement since I sit all day)

    11. Girasol*

      If I had one of those single-ear headsets, I would go for a double sided one. It’s so much easier to hear and concentrate in stereo. After that, if I did a lot of Zoom I might want a camera better than the laptop’s one that does that Blair Witch Project camera angle.

    12. Skeeder Jones*

      I have 3 monitors and it really helps me be productive. I can designate one screen only for Teams/messaging which is especially helpful because some days I am staffing a help chat. The third monitor was the best investment I have made.

    13. twocents*

      I upgraded my chair. My old chair was from some office place (think Office Max or Staples though I honestly don’t recall) and was fine for doing the weekly checkbook balancing and paying bills. It was not suited for 8 hours a day everyday.

      My back pain has gone down, posture is better, I’m less stiff. My replacement was a bit pricey (~360) but definitely worth it.

  55. Anon bean for today*

    There’s a not-insignificant chance that the small office I work in will be closing in the near future due to a combination of the owner nearing retirement age as well as the building not willing to grant us an annual lease (as opposed to our current multi-year lease). The owner had a frank talk with me about what our options could end up being (best/worst/okay case scenarios), but that they’re currently held up on any decisions by building management. They assured me that even if we closed, there’s at least another year of work for me as far as the logistics of closing things down. I just wish I knew one way or another so I could make long term plans. It’s stressful and it’s all I can think about right now. Has anyone ever been through this? Is there anything I should consider doing either way?

      1. Anon bean for today*

        I’ve been checking casually, but was hesitant to really cast out the line since I haven’t been here a full year yet. But I think it’s not a bad idea at this point – thank you!

    2. 867-5309*

      I think this is a situation where you have to evaluate what you control, which is only you.

      Start job searching if for no other reason than to ease your mind.

      1. MacGillicuddy*

        By “the office is closing” do they mean “going out of business”?

        Even if they think you’ll have another year of work, I would start job hunting right away. Even if you don’t want to quit soon, you’ll have a look at what’s out there. And it’s good to have some practice interviews (that is, for jobs that you don’t need to accept because the wolf isn’t at the door yet). And you might be surprised by a good opportunity.

        Even with pandemic considerations, it’s easier to get hired if you’re currently working. And it always takes longer than you think it will.

        I would NOT tell your current employer that you’re job hunting.

      2. Anon bean for today*

        “Evaluate what you control” – I really love this. It’s very thought provoking! Thank you for the advice.

  56. not_salad*

    After being a stay-at-home mom for a year longer than I had planned, I’m getting ready to apply for teaching jobs again. I have 2 glowing letters of recommendation and for the third, the lady asked me to write it myself and she’d put it on her letterhead and sign it. I am having the hardest time writing this letter for myself. Does anyone have any suggestions? It’s been like a month since I asked her and there are actually openings right now I would apply for if I had this letter ready to go.

    1. Alexis Rosay*

      I agree it’s hard to write for yourself. Do you really need three written letters of recommendation though? That seems excessive. I’ve never applied to a job that required even one.

      If you really need to write this one, talk over your strengths with a partner, family member, or close friend. Take notes and use those to write the letter. Imagine that instead of writing as yourself, you are writing in the voice of the friend you talked with.

      1. elle*

        I think this is really common in teaching jobs. I hate the whole idea of it, though, so I don’t have any advice sadly.

    2. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      Specifics are always best. Did any parent say you really made a difference for their kid in X subject or for X reason? Did you have any projects you worked on in your last position? Do you have old performance reviews?

      Something like:

      “One parent stated their child was never able to understand math assignments until Salad went above and beyond to teach them via Technique X.”
      “Salad spearheaded the school diversity committee and developed a new curriculum for Black History Month”
      “Salad achieved all superlative scores on performance evaluations during the tenure here”

      1. not_salad*

        I guess part of what’s hard, too, is this wasn’t a traditional teaching role. She is the director for the co-op preschool my daughter attended, where every family is required to take on a number of roles to support the school. So I worked in the classroom (both my family’s required amount and was paid to cover another family), was paid to teach music, and then worked on a committee, and then my last year served on the Board of Directors helping put together the curriculum. And then it ended really suddenly with Covid so I kind of feel like my memories of it aren’t good. I’m having a hard time with how to describe it all on my resume, too. But I do think it’s worth it, because a lot of the experience is very close to what I’d be doing in the jobs I’m applying for and it’s recent.

    3. Hillary*

      Imagine how your biggest cheerleader would describe your work and write it in their voice. For me that’s my best friend, it could be your partner or your parent. Bonus points if they’re a person you talk to about work. If you’re still blocked you can even get on the phone with them and ask for help.

    4. Another educator*

      I’m an adjunct instructor, who has written recommendations for my graduate students for internships and jobs and I’ve also been on school district hiring committees for the district I work for. Letters of recommendation for teaching jobs and academic purposes have a particular format. Your hiring committee reads a lot of these letters and will be able to tell the difference between a letter that’s written by a supervisor/administrator and one that is not. Best case scenario: You submit a recommendation that’s not strong because it’s challenging to write about yourself. Worst case scenario: they’ll be able to tell you wrote it and she signed off. As someone who’s read a good number of these letters, I can tell when the writer does not know the person well and the writing style differences between letters that are written by colleagues, parents and supervisors. Don’t do it. Give her a date for when you need her written letter back or find another recommender who is willing to write it.

  57. Alexis Rosay*

    Tl;dr Any suggestions on how to be less defensive at work?

    I’ve worked at a nonprofit for 7 years. In this time, we’ve tried many things that didn’t work well. Our current way of doing things is largely the result of these attempts. When new staff arrive, they frequently suggest trying X, but we’ve already tried X many years ago without success. I find myself getting very defensive and frustrated. For the most part I keep my feelings to myself, but I know probably shows sometimes. Also, I worry it prevents me from being open to genuinely new, good ideas.

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      Just be open. Say, “yes, Problem is really frustrating, isn’t it? We did try X, but it didn’t work because Reasons. But if you can think of a solution we haven’t tried yet, that would be awesome.” The key is to say that in an upbeat (not defensive) way.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Try to give these new people the benefit of the doubt that they don’t know the organization’s past history, and they’re not trying to be snarky or superior.

      What’s keeping you from just nodding and saying “Oh yeah, we tried that 3 years ago, but it turns out it didn’t work because of factors X and Y. Good on you for suggesting it, though.” ? Are you concerned that the newcomers are gunning for your job? Or that they think your organization is incompetent? Or that you’re incompetent?

      Now if it’s an overtly snarky suggestion, then your response has the same basic content but a different tone. “Oh, I guess you didn’t realize that because of factor X and Y, that idea won’t work. We explored that option 3 years ago and it was a no-go.”

      1. Alexis Rosay*

        Thanks, I do need to give them the benefit of the doubt. That’s always an important reminder.

        I think what’s making me defensive is that I feel very protective of my direct reports. Most of the people I supervise are hourly, part-time, quasi-gig workers. Frequently Solution X which gets suggested is to push Task Y onto them without an increase in their pay or approved hours. It feels to me like people are trying to take advantage of them, but I need to remember they are probably suggesting it out of ignorance, not malice.

        1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          Ah. So can you reply “we don’t have the hours or budget to move Task Y to my team. I wish we did, but the money’s not there.”?

          Don’t make it about protecting your direct reports; make it about the resources of the organization. That also takes the personal aspect out of it.

    3. Bernice Clifton*

      I used to do this at work, too, before I was diagnosed with anxiety.

      I’m not diagnosing you, of course, but one thing that helped me is kind of doing an autopsy on where the defensiveness and frustration is actually coming from.

      For me, pretty much all of my frustration and defensiveness in a situation like you described was that I felt like my coworker was not staying in their lane or willfully misjudging the situation and trying to show me up.

      Now when something like this happens, I recognize that I am annoyed. I take a deep breath and say, “Based on what I know about *this coworker*, did they say that or write that to be rude or dismissive, or are they simply making what they believe to be a good suggestion because they don’t have context that I don’t have?”

      1. Alexis Rosay*

        Yeah…funny you should say that, I don’t have a formal diagnosis but I do have a *lot* of anxiety. Thanks for the suggestion!

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Is X a common or logical way things would typically be done? I’d suggest digging in to what it is that stops the X being successful.

    5. Natalie*

      It’s worth remembering that something that didn’t work five or seven years ago might work perfectly fine today. Whether because of leadership changes, technological innovation, etc, circumstances change. I wonder if it would help to think of past attempts as having issues or challenges you couldn’t resolve, rather than “X doesn’t work” as though it’s some kind of static thing.

    6. working for the weekend*

      Ugh, I feel your pain. Been in that boat many, many times (I’ve been at my nonprofit 14 years). I will often say something like, “Yes, that’s an idea we’ve had before, but this was the challenge we couldn’t get past. Do you know if that’s something that would still be an issue or do you have thoughts on a workaround?” Because things DO change and maybe it’s a possibility now! I hate to be the stick in the mud person, so I try to be open to the idea (again) while acknowledging it’s been tried in the past and cautioning there may still be challenges. Sometimes we’ve been able to implement things we just weren’t able to push through before because we had a new person who was willing to take it on.

      1. Alexis Rosay*

        Thanks, it’s nice to know I’m not the only one in this situation and also a good reminder that things may work now!

    7. SomebodyElse*

      My other advice is to take a fresh look at some of the things you’ve tried in the past. You never really know what has changed in the interim that may make it a viable solution.

  58. Bluestreak*

    I made it to the final round of an interview: And I had two questions:

    1) When I initially talked to the recruiter, I was told a salary number, which was higher than my current salary. I said, that this “wasn’t insulting” and wanted to learn more about the position. I have since learned that this number is well under market (including from a person I interviewed with. How do i approach this, or do i just wait for an offer (hopefully)?
    2) I hear sometimes the final round (this is with two high level people) is a pro forma step and sometimes it isn’t. If I were the only person left, would the recruiter tell me this, or would they be better off letting me think I still have competition?

    Bonus 3rd question: Am I overthinking all of this?

    Thanks!

    1. elle*

      My advice, wait to the negotiation stage to talk about salary again. For number 2, they might tell you or they might not. No way to know!

    2. irene adler*

      #1: wait for the offer. Meanwhile, gather your data to show the level of salary the job commands. And that they should be offering you. Counter with this figure- and your data proving it’s validity.
      #2: You stand to benefit the most from the results of this final round. If the recruiter is mistaken, you stand to lose the most here- not the recruiter. Prepare as though there is competition. The recruiter may tell you it’s a slam dunk, but there’s nothing stopping the those high level people from asking some in-depth questions. IF they are not impressed, there’s nothing stopping them from rejecting you and re-opening the job to new applicants.

      1. Bluestreak*

        Thanks for the advice. I was planning on countering when/if an offer was made, but reading something here gave me pause. There was an article where Alison and the commenters were in basic agreement that asking for 20 percent more than the offer was absurd and makes you seem out of touch with reality. The number thrown out is definitely 20 percent below market.

        1. irene adler*

          Can you counter with an amount that is part way, with a written agreement to revisit/increase the compensation in 6 months’ time? Or will a non-monetary benefit be of interest to you (more PTO)? Maybe ask for that.
          Assuming they are compensating so poorly, you have to ask yourself what else are they doing poorly?

          Another option: Given the salary figure they cited is more than you make now, take the job with the idea that you will leave in a year or so- after you have acquired any new skills you think will benefit your resume.

    3. irene adler*

      #1: wait for the offer. Meanwhile, gather your data to show the level of salary the job commands. And that they should be offering you. Counter with this figure- and your data proving it’s validity.

      #2: You stand to benefit the most from the results of this final round. If the recruiter is mistaken, you stand to lose the most here- not the recruiter. Prepare as though there is competition. The recruiter may tell you it’s a slam dunk, but there’s nothing stopping the those high level people from asking some in-depth questions. IF they are not impressed, there’s nothing stopping them from rejecting you and re-opening the job to new applicants.

      #3- no. But you do have some prep work to do.

  59. Product Julie*

    My awful sales team is making my hard job harder than it needs to be.

    I joined a team 6 months ago, which had gone through many upheavals this past year as a product manager with some marketing responsibilities. My boss was also very new and had never worked in our industry before. My position was vacant for 4 months, and the responsibilities expanded considerably in that time. The previous person in the role was here for 10 years and did mostly custom product development and some basic marketing for our small team. During the 4 months, we acquired 2 other departments and ramped up the marketing for our team. Because my boss was new, she didn’t realize that the job had now become 2 jobs. Of course, I had no onboarding or orientation for either job I was doing.

    I now do all product development (I have no in-house developers) for our particular team and marketing for the three teams. The marketing responsibilities have been constant – all 3 websites need to be redeveloped in the next 6 months. My team manages 13 social channels, 3-4 paid advertising campaigns at any given time, monthly newsletters for all divisions, and 1-2 conference events a month. I manage 8 contractors (whose contracts were never done properly, my work is mostly trying to get that figured out) and have no one in-house. Any internal information this team of contractors needs has to go through me.

    60 hour weeks are typical for me now, and I came in pretty burnt out from my previous role. I manage about 30 external consultants and their scheduling on the product side and about 10 suppliers whose products we resell. I taught myself the consultant scheduling process in about 2 weeks.

    5 of our flagship product lines need intensive updates this year, and I can’t get a straight answer on the budget I have for that from my boss. One of my consultants works closely with one product line and basically volunteered to head up the development, a godsend, but I still have to manage that project. We are a public-sector organization, so I have put in for some hires, but it’s painfully slow to get there. My boss has also suggested that I become responsible for product development for the other 2 divisions soon. I explained that she would need a dedicated marketing manager soon because the role has expanded, but she is experiencing similar hiring issues.

    Our new sales manager has minimal experience in developing our product but lots of experience selling it. I’ve worked in product development in our sector for 12 years. She is pressuring me to sign 4 new suppliers and get their products to market as soon as possible, and I can’t understand why it takes so long when the suppliers take 2-3 weeks to get back to me on small details. I don’t have the time to chase down every single contact I speak with daily. They are continuously committing me to organize custom development for their clients, and I have no idea how I will manage to do that when other things have completely consumed my job.

    The sales manager invites her team of 5 to our weekly check-ins every other week. The sessions with her team have basically become grievance airing sessions where they yell (yes, yell) at me for not figuring out everything that had gone poorly over the past 2 years in the 6 months I’ve been here.

    The shortest tenure in the team is 5 years, and they constantly come to me to fix something they haven’t learned about for years. I have held some product-specific training sessions with them, complete with follow-up documentation where they can all access it. It never sticks. A few weeks later, I will need to go over basically anything that we covered in the training session. They also complain that our products don’t have certain standards. When I try to address the issue, they say that the particular problem isn’t too serious, and I need to fix some other problem with the product.

    I asked one of them for his opinion on scheduling a particular consultant and scheduled the consultant based on his advice. A month later, this salesperson said he wanted the consultant off the project because she wasn’t a good match for the project.

    After our first sales meeting where a few of them were particularly rude, my boss and the sales manager had to pull me aside and apologize for their behaviour. The sales manager just told me, “they’re typically salespeople. They want to be treated like rockstars.” About a month after joining, they were aghast that I hadn’t delivered the consultant scheduling schedule for the next 18 months because their clients needed it (I was still teaching myself how to do it with no help).

    Yesterday was another complaint session where they were upset that I hadn’t progressed as much as they wanted with the product redevelopment. I tried to explain the capacity issues and that I was trying to address them. The sales manager butted in and said she would recruit a consultant herself for it. I asked if the team could help me prioritize which products need development most urgent and sent them a feedback form that I could reference. None of them have even looked at it, and I doubt they will.

    The phrasing of their questions is never “let’s do this, I can commit to X to help.” it’s always “Shouldn’t you (meaning me) be doing X?” They blame me for not managing the internal systems that organize their leads when they’ve worked here for 5+ years! Their requests for minor (and sometimes nonsensical) changes to our marketing materials (like changing our old office address to our new one on a PDF brochure) could fill at least one day a week for me.

    I am really at the end of my rope. I feel like between the difference in the role I applied for. What I’m actually doing, the lack of industry knowledge with our management team and these awful salespeople, I feel like I walked into a minefield. This is not even a permanent job, and I’m beginning to think it’s not worth it. Am I too sensitive? Any advice on how to handle this situation?

    1. elle*

      This is not normal and you are not too sensitive. You should find somewhere that appreciates you.

    3. MacGillicuddy*

      These people are jerks. And your boss is either incompetent or clueless.

      I’d take a different tack. With your boss, outline all the projects on your plate and the amount of time it takes for each. Put the actual job description on paper.

      And after this conversation with your boss about the scope and volume of your work (written down -bullet points are your friends!) you need to start letting things drop and be unfinished.

      As long as you continue to do every single thing they dump on you, they will continue to give you more. They will not care one single bit if it takes you 60 or 70 or 80 hours a week.

      Use the phrase “I cannot clone myself”. Are you a contractor? Are they paying you by the hour? Even if you’re on salary, 60 hour weeks are one-and-a-half people’s worth of work.

      Also some stuff can go to secretarial/support staff, like changing addresses on PDFs, etc.

      For the sales people, don’t “ask if they would help you.” Instead say “this is the prioritization information I need from you. Will you give it to me by Wednesday or Friday?” (BTW this is a common sales technique “so, shall I put you down for a dozen widgets?”)

      When they say “shouldn’t you be doing xyz?” Your answer: “no, actually that’s what YOU should be doing.

      If they don’t bother reading the information you send out, call them on it. Re-send it, or send the link to the location on your company’s intranet (assuming it’s posted there, if it isn’t, it needs to be).

      Refuse to treat them like prima donnas.

      And start looking for a new.

  60. Let me be dark and twisty*

    If you could take any kind of work-related training for your career (current or aspirational), and money/approval was no concern, what would you take?

    1. 867-5309*

      I would earn my master’s.

      I am 20 years into my career and successful without so cannot justify spending the money but have always wanted to explore an area of research that would require advanced degrees.

      Organizational change and internal communications.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      If we can be a little stretchy on “work related” — I’m currently in health care, and I would love love love to be able to justify a PhD in the history of medicine/public health.

    3. Dark Macadamia*

      (tw suicide)

      I’d really like to get training on suicide prevention/response as a teacher. I think it’s a really important thing for individuals as well as school communities to handle appropriately but it’s just not a standard part of teacher prep, at least in my experience.

    4. Nabuma Rubberband*

      I’d get my Master’s! I have almost gone for it several times, but money and time are always at odds with my goals.

    5. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      I’d consider getting a master’s in a more technical aspect. I already have a PhD in my field but I didn’t focus on technical stuff much, which I regret now that I’ve abandoned academia. But I have considered getting an additional qualification.

    6. Tabby Baltimore*

      Either coursework toward getting the Project Management Professional cert, or the AWS Cloud Practitioner cert.

  61. Jaid*

    Right now, much of my building is WFH. Five floors, located by a river and constant construction in the area, it’s no surprise that we have mice in the building.

    Me, I’m in all the time, but because we were spread out, I’m not at my actual cubicle. Once in a while I’ll grab something from there, but the important stuff I keep in a bin on the shelving unit near me.

    Anyway, Tuesday, I go into my drawers to grab an umbrella.

    Wednesday, I go in to look for something else…only to find mouse poop all over the drawers.

    Thursday and today, I empty out the drawers and maintenance takes the drawers out so we can get to the underneath of them…and found paper goods turned into a nest.

    I still gotta put in a ticket to have it thoroughly vacuumed.

    My department manager says that work is dealing with the union, to have the WFH folks come in and clean out their drawers so the mice can’t nest in them…It’s been over a year there shouldn’t be any food left for them to eat…
    Otherwise, work is going to use a master key and box everything up for the trash.

    Something to look forward too, hey?

    1. Auntie Rodent*

      Your building is going to need an exterminator. The mice figured out the building was empty and notified all their friends.

      It’s not just the drawers that need cleaning. Mice are incontinent – they pee all over the place.

  62. Jaid*

    Right now, much of my building is WFH. Five floors, located by a river and constant construction in the area, it’s no surprise that we have mice in the building.

    Me, I’m in all the time, but because we were spread out, I’m not at my actual cubicle. Once in a while I’ll grab something from there, but the important stuff I keep in a bin on the shelving unit near me.

    Anyway, Tuesday, I go into my drawers to grab an umbrella.

    Wednesday, I go in to look for something else…only to find mouse poop all over the drawers.

    Thursday and today, I empty out the drawers and maintenance takes the drawers out so we can get to the underneath of them…and found paper goods turned into a nest.

    I still gotta put in a ticket to have it thoroughly vacuumed.

    My department manager says that work is dealing with the union, to have the WFH folks come in and clean out their drawers so the mice can’t nest in them…It’s been over a year there shouldn’t be any food left for them to eat…
    Otherwise, work is going to use a master key and box everything up for the trash.

    Something to look forward to, hey?

    1. Anonymouse*

      I returned to work this week and found mice had nested in my drawers. Interestingly, they got in the drawers where they could nest as I had some paper products. My drawers with food remained untouched.

  63. Green Mug*

    My high school age child is interested in a career in federal law enforcement or possibly forensic science. Does anyone have advice for college majors she should investigate? Also, any ideas for an internship during senior year of high school? Covid has closed doors to local police departments. Any guidance for this path is appreciated.

    1. OyHiOh*

      See if your local PD has an active Explorers program. Our Explorers have continued to meet throughout COVID, although, judging from photos, additional reasonable precautions are being taken. But it’s a good place to start.

      Most of the people I know in federal law enforcement have bachelors degrees either in criminal justice or psychology. There’s a few political science, public policy, and public administration degrees in there too, but the ones I know with those degrees have Masters in the subject and were/are in administrative and leadership positions.

    2. Nethwen*

      My locality transitioned to a virtual police citizens’ academy. It’s not an internship and not federal, but I’ve heard more than one person say the in-person academy was enlightening. I haven’t heard anything about the virtual version.

      Has she explored things like state park police, Bureau of Land Management, or Dept. of Agriculture law enforcement? Since those jobs can have a heavy outdoors component, there might be more COVID-compatible options.

    3. merope*

      Both those degrees are available at many colleges; the one in my town, for example, has both a Law Enforcement major, with specializations in various types of policing including forensics, fire science/firefighting, as well as a Bachelors in Forensic Chemistry.

    4. Let me be dark and twisty*

      I work for a federal law enforcement agency. Our law enforcement side has people who studied all sorts of things – sociology, economics, psychology, public policy, business administration, computer science, forensics, accounting, finance. The only people I know who’ve specifically studied criminal justice are our lawyers. I’ve spoken with some of our LEOs over the years and they say that it’s not so much the specialty knowledge/skills you learn in college but the soft skills like being able to plan your work, analysis, improvisation, critical thinking, reading, researching so if your child isn’t interested in something like criminal justice (or can’t find a criminal justice program she likes), then that’s perfectly OK. The specific law enforcement-y skills come from on-the-job training.

      I would suggest have your child do a bit of research into what she means by “law enforcement.” It’s a huge field with a lot of different opportunities that right now, they’re casting a wide net. For instance – does she want to work security? Does she want to investigate crime like fraud or murder? Does she want to chase paper trails and follow the money? Does she want to study evidence in a lab? And then narrow down majors based on her interest. For instance, if she likes forensic science or wants to work with evidence, then she’ll probably want to consider a hard science like chemistry or biology. If she wants to investigate crimes, then pretty much anything will work since investigation is mostly analysis, deductive reasoning, and critical thinking.

      Another tip is reverse engineering the federal law enforcement job announcements. The main federal job site is USAJobs (gov). Do a search on terms like “federal law enforcement” or “forensics” to find job openings, and see what kind of skills those positions need in the Qualifications section. (FWIW, I just did a search on “forensic” and there are 48 postings.)

      1. Green Mug*

        Thank you for taking the time to answer. The number of agencies is a bit overwhelming. I want to help set her on the right path so she will have options. To be honest, I don’t want to spend more on a degree only to find out later that it won’t help her get a job in the field she wants.

  64. HeadSpinning*

    I received a promotion earlier this year, doing something completely different from my previous job. For various reasons, I am looking elsewhere for other jobs not related to my current one. I’ve seen past advice on here to leave off short stints of a few months off resumes, but I’m still with the same company.

    I’m worried about having the last job I held on my resume with my end date & making it seem like the job ended (and I haven’t done anything since), but then a background check shows I’m currently still employed with my company. I also don’t want to lie & make it seem like I’m still in my last job. If I were to put the current job on my resume, it raises the “short stint” red flag & I also don’t want my previous boss to know that I’m searching/get reached out to for a reference.

    1. elle*

      It sounds like you got promoted within the same company, so you could list:
      “Llama’R’US 2018-presentt,
      Llama Groomer and Grooming Supply Coordinator”

      Also, I don’t think this level of detail shows up on a background check.

      1. HeadSpinning*

        Yes, still with the same company. Thank you, I was wondering how detailed a potential background check could be regarding this.

    2. PX*

      If you’re still with the same company it doesnt really count as a “short stint” on your resume.

    3. Malarkey01*

      I’ve never viewed internal office moves as short stints when hiring. Some companies also routinely move people around to different roles based on project needs and people can take development details too. Don’t leave this position off. Do something like:
      Teapots Inc 2015-Present
      Designer 2015-2020
      Senior Designer 2020-Present
      Describe accomplishments for both

    4. Can Can Cannot*

      List the accomplishments for the work you want to do, and leave off the stuff that you don’t want to do. If the job titles are incompatible, find some way to spin the work you did in the undesirable job title to be aligned with the work you do want to do.

      Your resume is a marketing document, and can be tuned to show off the kind of work you want to do in your next job.

  65. TheSkrink*

    On a scale of 1 to 10, how wrong is it to have your home office in your bathroom?

    No seriously. I have an 8×8, non-bathroom looking storage room off my kitchen that would be perfect for a home office if not for the afterthought addition of a toilet and slop sink in one corner. Assuming I could angle my webcam away from that corner, and of course ban the household from using that toilet (there are 2 real bathrooms elsewhere in the house), is this in any way acceptable? Or am I just letting my desire to get out of the dining room cloud my judgment?

    1. Dasein9*

      Seems acceptable to me. Might want to turn off the water to the toilet, in case humidity is a concern for a room that would have electronics in it.

    2. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      Ah, the Philadelphia toilet! Short term, what about a nice room divider screen blocking the view? Long term, I’d probably remove it but that’s more from a home reno POV than a work POV.

    3. RagingADHD*

      What people don’t see on camera can’t hurt them — as long as there’s not any weird acoustics. There’s an ambient sound to tiled bathrooms that is pretty recognizable to folks who have heard it before, and it is off-putting.

      1. Dasein9*

        So a soft divider screen instead of one of a hard material might be a good idea here. Keeps the sound waves corralled.

      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        A rug would probably help, and maybe some tapestries/quilts/curtains hung to cover the walls. Also, if you use the toilet as your office chair, no one will be able to see the toilet in the background. ;-)

    4. Littorally*

      The only concern I can think of besides the moisture that Dasein9 mentioned is acoustics — is the room tiled? That tends to give away “bathroom” on calls, in my experience.

      1. TheSkrink*

        Not tiled, just hardwood and plaster walls. It’s a bit bright soundwise but nothing a rug wouldn’t fix

        1. Littorally*

          Ah, then yeah I think you’d be fine. A rug, something soft on the walls, and maybe a screen to hide the plumbing and you’re good.

    5. Never Nicky*

      My colleague’s brother in law actually uses one of their bathrooms as a home office. He’s placed a worktop over the sink vanity to use as a standing desk and hung a monitor where the mirror was! (Wouldn’t be allowed in the UK as you can’t have mains power outlets in bathrooms)

    6. allathian*

      I’m in Finland, and plenty of people here have been using their sauna as a temporary home office. Saunas are a big thing here, so even 2-bedroom apartments can have them, and you basically can’t find a single-family house that’s been built after 1950 without a built-in sauna and older ones usually had them in a separate building in the yard.

      1. TheSkrink*

        I think if my sauna was also my office I might literally never leave that room!

    7. Chauncy Gardener*

      I think it’s absolutely fine!! I’m in my utility/storage room. My back is to the one nice wall I painted and that’s what people see on my video calls. A rug has helped dampen the echo from the tile floor. What people can’t see they don’t need to know about…

    8. Mina The Company Prom Queen*

      As long as nobody knows about it, I think you’re fine!.:)

  66. Anonymous Venting*

    Weird thing I’ve noticed: ever since my voice deepened from transitioning, I can’t seem to get good tech help from CSRs who seem to present as masculine as often as I used to. People who present on the phone as feminine tend to let me finish my sentences and we find a solution quickly. People who present as masculine want my passwords or to take control of my devices and spend a very long time trying to talk about my feelings instead of just giving me the information, which wastes more of my time and causes more frustration.

    I wonder how much has to do with gendered expectations (my own and others) of CSRs.

    1. No Tribble At All*

      That is SO interesting! I’ve heard before about trans people being treated differently by the same team after a transition due to people’s inherent expectations. I wonder if it’s men being socialized to help out women vs treat other men as rivals. You say the men try to talk about your feelings? I didn’t know tech support was where guys went to emotionally connect, lol.

      1. Anonymous Venting*

        When they see that I’m frustrated, they try to manage that, instead of giving me the information that would ease the frustration and get the task done. It makes everything worse because they are basically teasing me with having the information but not giving it to me until I stop being frustrated. Which is frustrating.

  67. Nethwen*

    Awhile ago, there was a question about companies asking applicants to suggest interview times when they applied. I’m not finding that post today, but being in the middle of hiring 50% of my organization, I’ve discovered that Indeed puts in this question and I can’t figure out how to remove it without also removing other things that I do want in the job listing. I think it’s rude and inefficient to ask candidates to suggest times up front, yet my job ad asks for it. I’m sorry, applicants.

  68. Career Change and Can't Prove My Skills*

    People who hire, especially for any sort of office-type role that requires little specific training other than a degree and maybe some experience. I’ve been in a teaching role for the last twelve years and am hoping to change to, frankly, anything that’s not in a classroom. Some kind of boring office role where I could put in my day’s work and hopefully have a coffee with nice colleagues and then go home and forget about work would be ideal. I have past experience in back room roles in banks and the like, but it’s mostly over fifteen years ago. I am tech and computer knowledgable, but don’t have a lot to prove it on my CV.

    Is there any sort of certification I could get or class I could take that would be useful on my CV/resume to prove I have decent enough tech skills that I could do most office jobs and figure my way around things? I see all these sorts of courses advertised but I have no idea if they are kind of scammy or if they would actually mean anything to a hiring manager. I’ll link in a nested comment to show you what sort of thing I mean.

    Would really appreciate some insight! I will add that I am in Europe and not in the US, and I know many folks here are, so would particularly welcome insight from other Europeans, but comments from anyone, especially those who hire, would be valuable!

    2. ATX*

      I wouldn’t consider Udemy or anything like that to be relevant, but it can’t hurt. Ultimately, it’s about real world use not taking an online course (which is vastly different).

      I would recommend finding a good staffing agency and doing some temp to perm work, that’s how a lot of people can switch careers into a traditional office role. There are tons of companies who are hiring for admins or exec assistants, and your recruiter can vouch for you. You don’t pay them anything, the company pays a % of your pay whenever they hire you.

      1. Seesaw*

        Look into technical writing, instructional design, or corporate training. There are short courses designed for career changers. Look into the Society for Technical Communication.

        1. Career Change and Can't Prove My Skills*

          Thank you, Seesaw, that is extremely helpful!

      2. Career Change and Can't Prove My Skills*

        Thanks ATX, I did exactly that (staffing agency and temp to perm) in my youth, and will probably go down that route again. Also thanks for your comments about Udemy. I suppose I know that real world experience trumps some online class, but I was hoping maybe there was something at least semi-relevant that I could do. Though, as you say, it can’t hurt, so maybe I’ll sign up for something relatively cheap and just see if I find it useful at all.

    3. Wordybird*

      I’m not European so correct me if I’m wrong but most teachers here have at least bachelor’s degrees. They also regularly use technology and administrative skills in managing their classrooms. You can rewrite your resume to highlight these skills which would be far more valuable than a certificate or course. The only instance I can think of where you might want to take a class or earn a certificate would be for a more specialized type of admin work like paralegal or medical transcription work or if the company uses a specific kind of software for part of their business.

      Every job I’ve had as an adult has been admin-related and in various fields, and my bachelor’s degree and previous experience has been good enough to be hired into them.

      1. Career Change and Can't Prove My Skills*

        Oh, I know, and I have rewritten my CV in such a way, of course. I am specifically wondering if people who hire put any stock in certifications or classes, and if so what those might be.

  69. Rhubarb McCustard*

    Any tips on starting a new job virtually? I have landed a new role I’m very excited about and it feels so surreal that we’ve only met on video. Would love any tips. I’m going from a charity to the civil service (UK).

    1. elle*

      I did this back in June! I asked my manager for a list of people to do “coffee chats” with and I met about 15-20 people on my team or that I would work with regularly, as well as my boss, grandboss and great-grandboss via a 30-minute video call just to get to know each other. It was a great idea.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        This is a really good tip! I started a job virtually in January, and while it is a bit weird, it’s been great. My boss gave me a list of people who gave me overviews of their jobs and how we would work together– I had a bunch of those calls in the first couple of weeks. I also take full advantage of our chat software and occasionally send my teammates messages just to share funny stories or to say hi. Some colleagues reached out to me for “hello” chats and that was lovely.

        Another tip: do something to change your physical space before you start. Rearrange your desk, hang a new picture on your wall, buy a new coffee mug… anything to make it feel like a fresh start. I moved two weeks after starting this job and I was so grateful for the difference in scenery, but if I hadn’t done that, I would have switched up my work arrangement at my old place.

  70. hoggums*

    How do you decide if you don’t like a job (the work itself in that particular position), don’t a career, or just don’t like your workplace (or… just hate working in general)? I’m fairly early career (27) and have had a couple different jobs now in the same field and find the content and idea of my career really interesting, but honestly dread doing it most of the time. I am on a project right now that is very interesting, has a decent work balance (I find I get depressed when I don’t have enough to do, but of course hate working 80 hours a week too lol), and don’t mind it too much (so it’s not quite the dread I’ve had at other points in my career), but I do overall find myself still not really liking it!

    However, I feel like I can’t just change jobs every year to test things out and see if I like them, especially because switching to other careers would likely require going to entry level or going back to school! How do people in the working world figure out what you like and don’t like without switching jobs or careers super often?

    1. adf*

      Oh god did I write this? I’m 26, but exactly the same, down to the never liking a job and getting depressed when bored. I’ve had one job I really liked, but it fell in to the 80 hrs a week territory and is not sustainable. I think the only actionable thing for me has been to try and identify exactly what I don’t like – is it my coworkers, is it that things are disorganized, is it that I find the work boring or frustrating – and see if there is anything I can do about that.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I think to some extent, this is normal. It’s called “WORK” for a reason, right?
      One’s work is not the same as your life’s calling (and sorry but many younger workers have been taught or told that their career and work should be their “passion.” NOPE!)

      That said, you should find some aspect of your chosen career and work interesting–and at least like doing some parts of it. Otherwise, you might end up miserable in the long run. I think the goal is to find those parts you do like, and eventually seek out job roles that have more of those parts, and less of the parts you’re not as fond of. It also helps to maintain a good work/life balance with more or less a 40-45 hour workweek.

    3. ferrina*

      What do you love/hate about the jobs that you’ve already had?

      This will help you figure out what makes you happy. This could be the pace of the job, or a certain culture, or a particular type of task. Look at how you’ve reacted to the same type of task across multiple workplaces- this will help you figure out if you hate the task, or just hated how the task was done in that workplace. Some people love working with clients, some love a lot of writing, some love analytics….figuring out what you really love is tricky, so think about what you’ve truly enjoyed! And how often you enjoy it- do you love a constant fast pace, or is it more a once a year thing? The more you can get specific, the better. This is every bit as important for the stuff you love and the stuff you hate. Even knowing what you’re neutral about can help!
      ^ Once you know this, be very picky in your next job search. Does your career tend to offer the things you love, or is it an anomaly? Are their fields adjacent to your current field where you can look? Look for things that have a lot of what you love, and very little of what you hate. It sounds like you don’t actively hate your job, so give yourself permission to be very picky in your job search (if you haven’t turned down or withdrawn a job application before, I recommend it- it’s a very empowering reminder that job hunting is a two-way street!)

      Also, think about how much you really need to love your job. Everyone has a different answer to this, and whatever is your answer is okay! Most people get their life’s fulfillment outside the workplace. You can decide that your job is good enough, or that you really want to work towards doing X even if it means doing the annoying stuff for a few years. You can also build skills by trying taking on new hobbies, volunteering, or taking on new types of projects instead of just switching jobs. See what you like/dislike about those (keeping in mind that you may feel differently when you’re doing it for work instead of for fun). It’s okay to play the long game in moving around your career- most people end up shifting their career every ten years or so anyways!

      My friend has an excellent example of this- she started in technical writing as an editor. She didn’t love it, but it paid the bills. Four years later, there was a management opening, so she figured “what the heck” and put her hat in. She got the position, and spent six years in middle management. Didn’t love it, didn’t hate it. Then she decided that she really wanted to get out of the corporate world and in to non-profits. After an eight-month search, she switched over to a non-profit that serves low income clients, where she worked as a program coordinator for eight years. From there, a government agency that she worked with at the non-profit recruited her in to an open position they had. It was something that she had learned at the non-profit, but only spent 5% of her time doing there. But she had done it for so many years and was so good that the govt agency wanted her to do it full time for them.
      She was in each of these tracks 4-8 years. The skills that she learned and honed in each of these positions were critical to her moving on to the next position, and each time she moved on, she was picky and clear on what she was looking for. What you look for will likely change over time, too.

      Hope this helps! Good luck!

    4. Wordybird*

      Do you find this discontent/dread/restlessness happens often to you in different arenas of your life or just at work? Are you someone who is a dreamer or a do-er? In short, are you more of a Burr or a Hamilton? :)

      I am definitely more Hamilton-esque than I would like and know I can tend to work towards what-might-be and dismiss or dread what-is-right-now. I have done that in the work setting, too, and had to remind myself that every job doesn’t have to be a forever job or a dream job but a job that serves a purpose for me. I was a SAHM for several years which, effectively, started me over as an entry-level person in my mid-30s. I’m now in a role that is a step up from previous roles but still not my dream or something that is particularly interesting or fulfilling to me. It’s hard for me to accept things as “okay” or “enough” as I am very much an all-or-nothing personality but sometimes a job is just okay & enough and that’s because it allows me (you) the ability to pay bills, go on vacation, afford something nice, etc. I can’t job-hop, especially at my age, so I’ve had to come to accept that I might not ever get my dream job (or it might not even exist just the way I picture it), and I can’t spend the rest of my life wishing for something else when what I have is good enough.

  71. Team Lead With Struggling Coworker*

    I am struggling with what my role is as a team lead in advocating for a team member who has been struggling and has gotten themself on the bad side of management.

    I don’t have a say or even any knowledge about hiring, firing, or any disciplinary consequences, but as a team lead I delegate and arrange certain things as well as serving as a sort of go-between for communication between leadership and my team. We hired someone new fairly recently (seven or eight months ago) who has a lot of potential but has been struggling with things that are essential, but not central to their role–let’s say they’re a llama groomer and the llama grooming is going well, but they are often behind on completing and handing in the post-llama grooming reports. Because of our busy schedules, many of us are often behind on these things, particularly when new. They’ve informed me that they’ve been spoken to about this by leadership on a few different occasions and made a passing reference to a PIP? They also acknowledged to me that they have ADHD which provides that much more of a barrier with this.

    Meanwhile, there has been a lot of discussion (not friendly) about the lifting of COVID precautions. We are in an area that has been hit particularly hard and leadership is taking a more cavalier attitude than most of us would like. My struggling coworker has a spouse who is undergoing cancer treatment and therefore REALLY cannot get COVID. They and their spouse are both fully vaccinated, which leadership seems to think renders all COVID precautions unnecessary. I am also unhappy with the way leadership has handled this situation, and fully understand my coworker’s anxiety when it comes to exposing their spouse, although they are a little more cautious than I would be–frankly, our entire city is dealing with a lot of COVID-inflicted trauma. I have given gentle, professional, but direct and honest pushback over the past six months about my beliefs that many COVID precautions should be maintained. My coworker has given similar feedback, but with a much more combative tone (and also, of course, does not have the same level of political capital that I have in this case). e.g. “This company clearly does not care if my family dies.”

    The writing seems to be on the wall as far as my coworker’s future with our organization: they have struggled with some essential duties and gotten a reputation for being combative. However, I think if leadership knew everything I do about my coworker’s life, they would understand that in a few months–when COVID risk inevitably goes down with increased vaccination, when my coworker has had more time to settle into a routine–things are almost certain to get better. I think this coworker has a lot of crucial qualities for working with–ahem–llamas, and that once these obstacles have had time to alleviate themselves, they will be just spectacular at their job. Not only that, but I like this coworker and want them to succeed and stay with the organization. I’ve offered guidance and help, but been turned down.

    So my question basically boils down to this: is there anything I can say or do with leadership that would let them know my opinion on all this? I will not be asked for my opinion, but I was thinking maybe an unsubtle, “I’m really glad we have so-and-so on the team because they really bring X,Y,Z qualities.” Is it just too late?

    1. jenny*

      I’m sorry about your leadership’s cavalier attitude towards COVID precautions. That is disheartening and demoralizing to everyone and I wish those in leadership roles saw that. Your coworker sounds like they are in a very difficult situation and it’s understandable they’re stressed and not at peak performance. I’m sorry that I don’t have other suggestions for the bulk of your question and am zeroing in on only one sentence – I hope other commenters have more useful feedback on the big picture.

      I also have ADHD and you really cannot use it to justify someone’s quality of work. They either do the work they need to, or they don’t. If you have ADHD you can …
      – develop appropriate coping methods and systems, on your own or with your manager
      – request accommodations through an ADA process
      – if recently diagnosed, share with your manager that it’s a recent diagnosis and you’re still getting a handle on treatment, to ask for more grace in the short-term and provide context for past performance that will improve soon

      but you can’t cite ADHD as a general explanation for ongoing issues that don’t have “and here’s how I will address them” at the end. That’s unfair to anyone else with ADHD who has successful ways of managing their own work, and unfair to everyone else who is being held to a higher standard than their coworker.

      It’s also not your responsibility and possibly not even appropriate for you to share context about your coworker’s situations outside work. They will have opportunities to bring that up as they want to. You can share positive feedback though and I hope others have better suggestions for doing so.

      1. jenny*

        Adding one more bullet about “if you have ADHD you can”:
        – use your knowledge of your strengths and weaknesses to seek jobs that align with them

      2. Team Lead With Struggling Coworker*

        Completely agree with everything you said. The reason I mentioned the ADHD is not to make excuses but to add additional context. One mistake on my coworker’s part, imo, is not being proactive enough about dealing with the ADHD issues.

        That said, it’s EXTREMELY normal for people who are new to my kind of work (which they are) to struggle with these things, and we’ve been switching from full-time WFH to part-time to full-time in person and back again as COVID scares arise, so it feels like with more time, these issues would improve a lot if not disappear.

    2. Blue Eagle*

      The answer to your question can be found in the last line of your penultimate paragraph. “I’ve offered guidance and help, but been turned down.”
      This person doesn’t want your help, will not appreciate it, and will look at you as a butinski.
      Sorry that there isn’t a better answer for you.

    3. SomebodyElse*

      I think you’ve got a couple of things going on here… and it would probably be good to separate them.

      Your coworker’s performance is just not up to standard as you describe. For this reason they should be on a PIP and looking for ways to improve their performance.

      Now the COVID related information… unless you can honestly say the coworker’s performance is directly related to the plans to bring people into the office then it’s irrelevant. The ADHD, could be relevant if there was a conversation about accommodations. Having ADHD is not a free pass for substandard performance.

      Now bringing back your coworker’s response to the coming back into work ” My coworker has given similar feedback, but with a much more combative tone (and also, of course, does not have the same level of political capital that I have in this case). e.g. “This company clearly does not care if my family dies.””

      I think you know the answer to this “is there anything I can say or do with leadership that would let them know my opinion on all this?” The answer is sure, you can express your opinion. The real question is what would be the upside of doing it? It’s unlikely to change the outcome and even if it did would that be a good thing for anyone, including your coworker?

      1. twocents*

        This. Honestly, I feel for OP, but I’m not sure this is a good use of their capital. Coworker is on a PIP and thinks so little of the company that she’s basically accused them of trying to kill her family. Either through the PIP or her disdain for the company, she’s on her way out.

        Alison’s said it before, but you really can’t be more invested in saving someone’s job than they are.

    4. Nabuma Rubberband*

      Seriously, it would be the very best thing you could do to share some of your empathetic insight to the management team, who sounds like they could use a bit of empathy in this situation.

      We aren’t two dimensional robot people, and the impact of a family member with a dire illness can’t be discounted. It’s thoughtful of you to consider this as well as the positive qualities your colleague brings to the role, even in this time when they are struggling.

      And, kudus and karma to you for being a caring person. Wish there were more of you out there looking out for colleagues. Your kindness is much appreciated — even if only vicariously.

  72. Henry VIII Was a Gasbag*

    In January 2015 I was offered a job. Coincidentally, it was also my first day of starting a new job where I’d be working from home, which fit better for my family’s needs at the time because my kids were 7 and 5. I’m on my third job since that one (so four total since January 2015) and each one has ended–my current role ends in June–due to grant funding. The job I was offered in January 2015 is open again. The experience I’ve had since then is largely irrelevant to the position; all it requires is the Masters degree I hold and experience I already had 6 years ago. So I applied for it. I have no idea if I’ll even get an interview, and wow, it kind of hurts to know that if I do get it it’ll be as if the last 6 years didn’t matter. Nonprofit/academic work is really the pits.

  73. seagull*

    Hi all, I have a question about negotiating for a half-time director role at a nonprofit. It’s not a sure thing but I want to be prepared. I’ve found a lot of info about negotiating for full-time salaries but not these types of roles.

    1) The role requires a relocation. While normally I’d never consider this for a half-time role without benefits, the org’s prestige and its connections to adjacent opportunities in my field make it worth considering. However, the cost of living in the new location is high and I want to make sure that the board is comfortable with my need to engage in other paying opportunities in my field, including my own projects, to make a decent living. What’s the best way to broach this? Is it reasonable to ask for a relocation package, or will they think that’s insane? In line with the above, can I ask how how the previous director made it work to live in an expensive city with a demanding role but half-time salary?

    2) Is there room to negotiate the salary even if it’s half time? I think the yearly salary might be project-based like a lot of these types of orgs (or possibly even hourly, since my research has revealed that they vary from year to year), but it’s hard to tell. I need to find that out, but when I do, is there room to negotiate? Are there other benefits that I should think about asking about?

    3) I have some contractual obligations for other projects that will take place in the coming year. These are not contracts that I would feel right about breaking. I personally feel that I would be capable of balancing them with the demands of the new position, but if the org doesn’t agree, how do I move forward? Is there a way to negotiate finishing my contracts and making sure to prioritize the org prior to considering new ones?

    4) Even if the org is prestigious and comes with a lot of potential for growth in the field, am I crazy to consider this? This wouldn’t be a stepping stone position; it would be long-term. It’s very difficult–almost impossible–to land a permanent position in my field, which adds some pressure to accept if offered, and the outward prestige of the position adds more. Practically, though, am I ignoring some red flags? I love the org and I think I would find the job really fulfilling and do great work. However, my interview panel stressed the high demands of the job and seemed worried about my balancing it with my other projects. Should I be worry about their concern, considering I’ll need to keep my other work to make a livable wage?

    Any insights would be deeply appreciated!

    1. elle*

      I would be really clear that if it’s half time, it only gets 20 hours of your attention every week and the rest of your life *will* continue to include other projects. Both of you need to be 100% on the same page there.

    2. ferrina*

      Keeping the original numbering from your questions…..

      2) Yes, you can always negotiate.

      1) This can be part of the negotiation. Surely they know that you’ll need to take on a second job in order to make ends meet? Be clear about what you will be able to do. “I can work 20 hours a week at X compensation. If you want me to do more than that, I will need Y compensation.”
      Make sure that this is a company that will hold to this. Some will agree just to get you on board, then once you’re in will punish you for not working more than what you agreed to.

      3) This is part of 1. They know they have said this is a part-time role. Assume it is part-time. Define what part-time is, and build your schedule and expectations around it (again, be clear with them what you are expecting. “I can work 20 hours….”). You don’t need to tell them what the contracts are- you can say “I can’t work more than 20 hours a week because I will need to do other work and other commitments during that time.

      4) From what you are saying, I’d be running for the hills. A part-time “demanding” position? I assume they mean it’s time consuming, not physically demanding or stressful (like 20 hours a week with difficult clients)? If they are telling you it’s part time and implying that they expect full-time availability, yeah, that’s a big red flag. Especially if they want you to go broke to do it.
      Do this thought experiment: What would you say if you couldn’t take additional work? How long would you be willing to work at this wage? A year? Two? Not at all? How much would you still love the organization if you knew they were okay with paying you an very unfair wage? Is the work fulfilling enough to make you happy to live off ramen?
      Then act accordingly. Know when you are willing to walk away, and don’t let temporary warm fuzzies convince you to stay. You can ask directly- how many hours a week would you expect this position to work? Did the previous person need to go above that to get everything done? And be clear what your limits will be and see if they flinch.

      Good luck!

    3. Wandering*

      May or may not be helpful, but I had a very interested non-profit explain that they always hire directors who have spouses with the primary income & benefits in the family so that they don’t have to worry about pay scales for their leadership. They were surprised when I turned them down.

  74. Nonprofit Manager*

    Hi all. I’m getting a FT position in my department. It’s a new role to the organization and will be reporting to me. I asked HR for the job description and the salary band, and then they ignored the salary band request. I asked again, and they pushed back giving it to me, and then copied the head of HR asking why I wanted it. I’m so confused. This seems like a very normal thing to have access to as a manager of the role (and head of the department). I asked a few other managers if they has access to salary bands for their direct reports and they said yes so I’m not sure what is going on. For other managers out there, do you have access to the salary bands for your direct reports?

    1. SomebodyElse*

      I see it once a year while we are figuring out merit raises. Each employee is listed with their current salary and where it is in the band, as you calculate their increase it moves them up or down in the band so you can see what affect the increase has.

      Yes, that is very weird that your HR is asking you why you need it.

  75. Message in a Bottle*

    This inspired from a question on this site this week.

    Hiring managers, do you ever specifically look for candidates who have taken non-traditional routes to gain their experiences? I know some nonprofit organizations do, especially depending on their missions. But this is a general question about, how do you find those folks? I’m not specifically meaning folks who were formerly incarcerated, though I know some businesses embrace open hiring. But I guess in general, how do you value lived experiences and alternate routes and if so, how is that value reflected in your searches?

    I think that some people aren’t the ideal candidate on paper, but can do the job. Some folks take longer to get to their goals, etc.

    Life happens and not everyone has had the opportunity to develop into the ideal candidate. Most of my career the hiring folks have had the advantage with lots of well-qualified applicants, not just at this time. Just interested in how people weigh that. I also hope that someday in the distant future I will be in the position to hire someone (for something I built myself not working for others) and wonder how I will weigh it myself.

    1. OyHiOh*

      Being on the employee side of this, I think it takes having HR and hiring managers who either took non traditional routes themselves, or truly understand how a outlier candidate can benefit the organization because they’ve watched it happen themselves, in order for this sort of systems shift to take place.

      My boss is a highly skilled professional who took a non traditional route into their current executive director position. I think they were hired because several of the board members who interviewed them also have had unusual career paths and understood what my boss brings to the table. Of the four people my boss has hired, only one of us (not me!) has taken a more or less linear route from college to what they’re doing for our organization now. I don’t think companies can just magically dismiss how they’ve always hired and what an ideal candidate looks like, without doing some serious soul searching that starts with the leadership committing to the process and making changes at the top first

  76. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

    Anyone else neurodivergent (i am autistic/ADHD) struggling to focus at work? i swear i am the worst admin in existence i cannot focus to save my life.

    trying to get myself to focus is like trying to catch smoke.

    1. RagingADHD*

      I am usually either struggling to focus or hyperfocused to the point of unhealthiness, so you know…feel ya on that.

      1. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

        my last hyperfocused session at work had me working the entire day straight without a single break. my last hyperfocused session at home had me deep cleaning for about 16 hours straight without a single break or meal. while the deep cleaning needed to be done and i’m glad it’s over with i know it’s not necessarily healthy.

      2. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

        my last hyperfocused session at work had me working the entire day straight without a single break. my last hyperfocused session at home had me deep cleaning for about 16 hours straight without a single break or meal. while the deep cleaning needed to be done and i’m glad it’s over with i know it’s not necessarily healthy. i could use a happy medium somewhere in there.

      3. Siouxie the Banshee*

        Samezies.

        And with remote work, I find myself working laaate hours when I slip into hyperfocus, which makes me tired the next day, and so on.

    2. elle*

      I am having the same struggle. I’m hoping to get some medication and occupational therapy soon.

    3. Nacho*

      I’ve had that issue before. My solutions have been to take lower-paying jobs with lots of downtime (call centers are great for this if they’re not super busy) so I don’t have to be on all the time. Alternatively, I try to take jobs that let me manage my own time, so the work I get done when I’m hyper-focusing cancels out the time I literally just can’t focus on anything. I’ve found that as long as I give myself plenty of chances to relax and not focus on anything, I can generally manage during the times I have to do something.

      The other option is to take medication like Ritalin or Concerta, and I’d suggest talking to your doctor about those if you’re struggling. I self medicate with lots of caffeine, but there’s value in taking real medicine if you need it.

    4. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      On Monday I didn’t get any work done because I couldn’t focus. Bad court, bad family news and it was over for me

    5. BubbleTea*

      I had a day like this today. I could isolate some of the causes but that didn’t help me resolve them.

      What I have to do in those situations is externalise my executive functioning. I do this routinely by using an online coworking room with pomodoro timer and task tracker (I like Complice but there are surely others), where I’m accountable to others to make progress on the tasks I’ve said I’ll work on, and where the timers help me refocus if I wander off track.

      On bad days I also message a particular friend who understands about this need, and we act as accountability buddies. Today I had to specifically articulate “I’m going to go and make a cheese bagel for lunch” and then when I discovered I’d accidentally bought non-sliced bagels, I almost derailed the day. She coached me through slicing the bagel myself and I got past it. Seriously, some days are just like that!

      And I ended up working an hour less than I should have done today because I. Was. Just. Done. I’ll make it up at the weekend when my brain isn’t wiggly.

      But yes, externalise executive function as much as you can. In the office that is easier because colleagues can see what we’re doing and their tea breaks/lunch breaks/meetings highlight the passing of time. At home (if you are working from home) it is so much harder. I have to set an alarm on the day I need to be somewhere in the evening because I’ve sailed through an extra hour of work by mistake more than once.

    6. ferrina*

      At what point do you lose focus? And what helps your focus? What have you already tried, and what could you try?

      I’m ADHD, and I found I work best in sprints and with music. So I’ll turn on some music (I like CDs because they have a built-in time limit) and say “I’m going to work on Paperwork X for the length of this CD.” I’ve also found that I struggle with starting a task, but once I’m focused, I can stay focused. So I imagine that I’m someone cool (a grand sorcerer about to take on a wizard, a warrior kicking down a door to the enemy’s hideout) and I force myself to start. I’ve also found that my cell phone likes to break my focus, but if I leave it in the other room (when wfh) I can focus much better.

      Between my sprints, I have to take breaks. If I don’t take a break, my brain will do it for me. My breaks usually involve walking around and/or getting snacks and/or making a cup of tea. Caveat: I get away with taking a lot of breaks because I still average more work in one day than most of my counterparts do in three days.

      If you haven’t already, medication is definitely worth looking in to. There’s different classes and different release timing, and a good doctor will work with you to help find what works for you. It’s not a silver bullet, but it can help quiet the noise of ADHD.

      I don’t know if these tricks will help you, but good luck!

      1. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

        I’m good with action, with moving around and getting things done. as soon as i sit down and have to do the administrative things, my focus dissolves.

        I have multiple roles, and one of the things i do other than admin work is i teach dance fitness a few days a week in my same work location. it’s great because it gives me a creative outlet and breaks up the monotony of the day with something i love to do. it also tires me out physically, making the admin work easier to do. unfortunately, due to Covid, i’m not teaching as often and Fridays are my non-teaching days where i’m just stuck at the desk and i become a total space cadet.

        1. ferrina*

          That’s really good to know that about yourself! Some ideas that come to mind-
          – Going for a run or doing something physical before the work day starts and/or during a break.
          – Walking desk? My techy office has these and I love them. I couldn’t afford one myself, but if you have a treadmill or even a stationary bike you could MacGyver something
          – More frequent breaks and active breaks. It could be a walk around the block or active housework. Something that takes 10-15 minutes, then boosts your productivity. At times I’ve been doing this as frequently as every hour, but I find that the active breaks boost my productivity so much that no one has caught on that I don’t actually sit at my desk 8 hours a day.

  77. Medea*

    I need to give written feedback to someone on my team who reports to the same manager but is junior to me. I’m hoping someone can suggest a better wording.
    I’d like them to look more at the bigger picture when they do their tasks. They should ask about the bigger picture if they don’t pick up on it from meetings etc. They should also be proactive in exploring areas connected to their field of responsibilites. How can I formulate this so it sounds encouraging and shows that they have the potential to evolve in their role.

    1. jenny*

      Can you give them examples? The main issue is that this is extremely general and so can be hard to implement. I don’t understand what you mean when you say “look more at the bigger picture” or “proactive in exploring areas connected to their field of responsibilities.” I’m not sure I’d know what you wanted me to do based on only that wording. I’d ask follow up questions but not everyone will. Examples of things they’ve already done that they could do differently, or things they’re about to do that you would like them to do in a specific way.

      Try to schedule face-to-face time to talk about the written feedback. Use it as a blueprint, not the whole conversation.

      Be kind and direct. Praise them genuinely for what they do well. Frame the feedback as ways they can improve and further develop their skills. Don’t sugar-coat what you want or try to manage their emotions, though – be direct.

    2. Bernice Clifton*

      I think you need to be specific about what the bigger picture means and why it’s important to consider that.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      I think the wording depends on why you are giving the feedback.
      If it is in a mentoring capacity, then it should be somewhat generic such as “When you do X task, think about how that information flows into Z presentation/final product. If you look at the bigger picture of HOW the information will be used you can anticipate questions and possibly make some tweaks to your process to help things flow better between departments. ”
      If it is more performance based, you need to be clear about what the issues are and what changes you need to see. “I’m getting complaints that all of the files you send are in .xlsm format which isn’t compatible with Department A’s system. I know you have streamlined the process with the macros you wrote but you need to think about who is using your information and how they needed presented before you send it.”

    4. Old McDonald*

      I’ve managed people who just can’t. You can give specific examples but they may not be able to extrapolate to a different issue. I’ve tried (with varying success) to say, “This is what we talked about. Can you give me some ideas how to solve this for all the similar instances of this problem?” Some employees figure that’s why YOU make the big bucks and are happy to just follow directions.

      1. ecnaseener*

        Ok, but that’s not a reason not to give the feedback and it doesn’t help Medea with how to phrase said feedback.

        1. Old McDonald*

          True. But it may help to know that sometimes the feedback just won’t land & all the coaching in the world may not work and it may not be LWs fault. I find that to be helpful.

    5. RagingADHD*

      Maybe something like,

      “When doing tasks like X and Y, there are often many related factors that can impact the right way to approach it, or the outcome we’re looking for. These factors may not be obvious without the overall context of the project.

      It’s important that you consider the context and use those variables to guide your work. (Examples of the type of factors & what they mean).

      Right now, that isn’t happening, and it impacts the project in these ways (like maybe there’s time wasted with going back to make changes, or it puts more work on someone else).

      If you don’t have the background information or an understanding of the context, you’ll need to take initiative to ask questions and familiarize yourself with the situation. We’re happy to help and answer questions, but we can’t anticipate everything you might need to know.”

      Is that getting in the right direction?

  78. Firsttimearound*

    I had an interview for a job this week, my first since 2020 and honestly my first “real” job not in the service industry in almost ten years. The interview itself went fine (sort of… the place seems like kind of an organizational mess, but I’m desperate to move up in the world and have benefits, etc so I’m willing to roll with it). The thing is I don’t really know how much to expect the job to pay because I don’t know how to find comparable positions. It’s for a company that sells “shirts” to businesses around the world. The job is advertised as “shirt librarian” because they keep samples of “shirts” on hand to send out to customers who might want to use them in projects and I would be responsible for keeping the sample collection organized, up to date with current offerings, and pulling samples to provide the sales team to send out to customers they are working with. I would also be spending some time receiving “shirt” shipments at the warehouse and maybe eventually creating a database of presentations about the different lines of “shirts” that could be shown to customers. What is this job considered, what keywords would I use to compare salaries for similar positions elsewhere? Thanks!

  79. Paloma Pigeon*

    I’m currently employed part time, and have been interviewing for full time and am currently in the final round for a fast-paced nonprofit. They sent me an assignment for a final interview to present to leadership team, and it’s…a lot. I estimate it will take me about 8 hours to do it well. While my job is part-time, I’m juggling two kids and part-time school for each due to COVID, and my husband’s job is overwhelmingly busy. All if it is making me wonder if I have the bandwidth to take on this role right now. I really, really need to be making a full time salary but I also remember the days of missing school events, having caregivers and neighbors take my kids to the beach. It’s definitely a tradeoff, and I don’t have the answers, but I woke up at 4 am stressing that on the week that I’m supposed to start our family has two separate graduation ceremonies and two separate dance recitals. On paper, I’m crazy to walk away – good salary, org has great reputation, etc. But I would be the only staff member with kids, and I can tell you that is a lousy position to be in on a team.

    1. jenny*

      Wow! 8 hours is a lot to ask! Is there any chance at all you’re interpreting the assignment as being more in-depth and polished than they need from you? Otherwise, they sound really out of touch with what it’s OK to ask of someone who is not being paid and does not work for you yet, and I bet this will show up other places in working with them

      1. Paloma Pigeon*

        MTE. Part of the assignment is writing an appeal letter – a good appeal doesn’t get written without extensive rewriting, at minimum, we’re talking an hour. That was just one part of the assignment.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I agree – this is a big request to make up front, it sounds like just the appeal letter would have been sufficient as far as time commitment for an interview assignment. It’s hard to know if this is representative of the job itself (asking too much without regard for your circumstances) but it’s a yellow flag for sure. If you already know that no one else on the team has kids, it sounds like you might have had the chance to talk to them about the working environment. Is there anything else you can tell about the company culture that makes you think this is typical of them?

        What about asking this place if just writing the appeal letter or some other representative piece of the whole assignment would be sufficient as an example of your work quality? But you might not be comfortable doing that unless you have other good FT opportunities.

  80. Remember Neopets?*

    I have a new supervisor who has no clue what I do – technically, no one in my department does.
    My previous supervisor was a little odd for having experience handling both my area and a different area, so it made sense for me to report to him. Before he left, he confided in me that he recommended that they promote me and give me my own area to supervise because they were having trouble finding someone who could all of the things he did (he was def underpaid as well and that was def part of the reason he left) and he felt that I would be able to do more for the company with an expanded role and team.

    Well, they didn’t find someone with experience in my area and they didn’t promote me. According to the new supervisor they will not be promoting me because “there isn’t value in it”…. cool. So now, when he gets questions about my stuff, because former boss could answer those questions and he can’t, he sends me separate emails to get the answer from me and then reports back to the original question asker. I’ve asked to be forwarded those questions or included in meetings so that I can report on my own work, he says no. He would prefer that I just teach him about my area and let him handle responding to the questions instead of giving me the authority to do it myself because no one else gets to do that.

    This is more of a rant. I have several prospects for a new job so I don’t really need to solve this, but I’m just so frustrated. In an above comment I mentioned that I could just not do my job and no one would know because no one knows what I do now. It’s really, really demoralizing. And when I do leave, I doubt they’ll replace me, because again, they think there’s no value in my work, and then their entire business model will crumble in a year until they actually realize the ramifications of my work and try to get their act back together.

    1. Blue Eagle*

      I can relate to your frustration (in a former position). To keep me sane, my spouse kept telling me “don’t worry about it, you’re just the teapot painter – – – they are underpaying you for what you do and aren’t paying you to worry about the big picture”. Just like you, I left as soon as I could.
      Sending positive energy that you find a position that works best for you that pays well.

    2. Anonymess*

      Your new supervisor is taking credit for your work. Or at least is pretending to have knowledge they don’t have.

      Perhaps after they pick you’re brain sufficiently, they’ll eliminate your position.

      Not a good sign. Start job hunting.

  81. Goose*

    I work in recruitment. I just realized today that I am DONE with this life (8ish years of it, since I graduated college.) While there are parts I like, I am absolutely done with the advertising and social media side. I have transferable skills, but what kind of jobs are out there where I don’t need to do advertising?

    1. Roci*

      I know recruiting is very commonly a first step to other areas of HR. You can be a go-to HR person if you still like talking to people, and at a larger company you could be a “talent acquisition” specialist and can leverage your recruiting experience, or at a smaller company you could wear many hats and learn the in-house side of HR.

  82. Allura Vysoren*

    I work for a company that claims to value its employees above all else–but it’s all talk and no action. My entire department is overworked and underpaid, work-life balance doesn’t exist, we’re asked for our thoughts on significant changes to our positions only for those thoughts to be completely ignored and the reasons why never communicated, employees are fired for performance reasons without being told that their performance is an issue prior, actual performance issues are ignored, the office is under constant surveillance by upper management…I could go on.

    I’m job hunting. My question is: If a company advertises that they have a culture that values their people, is that a red flag? Are there companies that say it and actually mean it, or do companies that really do right by their employees just let it go without saying?

    1. jenny*

      It’s not a red flag or a green flag. It’s just fluff. Figure out concrete ways you want to be treated by your new company, and research the companies and ask about those in interviews.

    2. ThatGirl*

      There are companies that mean it but you can’t tell that based on whether they say it or not. What you can do is ask about company culture – including benefits, schedule flexibility, etc. I like to ask current employees what they like most and what they see the biggest challenge as – that can tell me a lot. My current company genuinely does seem to value its employees – we get extra/bonus time off as a reward, bonuses based on company performance, and nice branded swag I will actually use, along with other smaller perks.

  83. JH*

    So I have a direct report, who was a remote worker pre-COVID, but I’ve been managing her for less than a year. She’s had a few performance issues that we’ve worked through and she takes feedback well for the most part. Since COVID, I know it’s been more and more common for kids and pets to make appearances on work calls but that may start to dwindle as we go back to the office. She will continue to be a remote employee. In my time working with her, her cats will frequently interrupt calls and demand attention, and then she will hold and cradle them on calls. I worry about the perception of the potential lack of professionalism. This isn’t just they meow and go away. She actively will pick them up and hold them or move her computer for them. I worry less about this for internal calls but she’s done this on external calls with donors and volunteers too. Thoughts on if I’m being too much of a stickler or should I address it with her? It’s something that’s gone on the whole time I’ve known her and it was only recently brought to my attention that it can be perceived as “unprofessional”.

    1. elle*

      I wouldn’t mind it at all, and I don’t think my internal folks would either but my husband’s company is exactly the opposite. I would just gently let her know that if it’s with an external client she should close the door or in some way limit the ability of pets to appear.

    2. Allura Vysoren*

      I don’t think a kind note that you’re worried about perceptions of professionalism, especially during external calls, would be crossing the line, speaking as a (currently) remote worker whose cats behave similarly. All three of my cats have made appearances on Zoom calls, including my youngest who will jump onto my lap and insist on being held like a baby. But I also only allow him to do that during meetings with my team and certain internal meetings with people who are already well aware of my professionalism otherwise. I work in my basement so there’s no door for me to close to shut them out, but I have an ottoman and a stack of drawers where any of them can lay so they get the feeling of “hanging out with Mom” but they’re out of sight of my camera.

      You could approach it as, “I’m worried that external contacts will perceive you as distracted and not giving the meetings your full attention, especially if they haven’t worked with you before.”

  84. peppermintea*

    How is everyone finding the job market these days? I’m in a large city and work in STEM. I’ve started job searching and so far no luck. One company reached out to ask if I’d be willing to take a much more junior role, and I politely declined. Other than that there’s been no responses other than a few sporadic form rejection letters. This is unusual for my field, so I’m curious if others in different markets are also noticing this.

    Also, how is everyone networking these days? I need to learn to network better but have no idea how to start. This has been something I actively ignored/procrastinated/avoided bc it’s so anxiety inducing. But my friends think this is the way to go to find a new job.

  85. JustaTech*

    Another update in the ongoing Betty saga:
    This will probably be the last Betty update, as Betty quit this week. She gave a generous notice, so we’ll be able to wrap up a few things before she leaves, but I am now utterly hosed in the “getting things done” department, as there were only three of us in our group and I’m in the middle of a study that really needs 3 experienced people to do it, otherwise the remaining 2 people are looking at a couple of painful 12-14 hour days. But I’ll make it work.

    The bigger thing that came out of Betty leaving is that she told me what she’ll be making at her new job, and also what she’s making now, which is *considerably* more than what I’m making, even though we’re the same level and I have seniority. I’m pissed but not totally shocked; I was low-balled when I started because I worked in academia (way low pay) and didn’t realize I could just say “and now we will negotiate salary” when I started. What did shock me (and piss me off a lot) is that our previous boss, Stan, told Betty not to tell me how much she was making.
    Me: That’s illegal. Stan can’t tell you to do that, there is literally a law.
    Betty: Oh. Well, that’s what he said.

    So now it’s time to have the conversation I’ve had once before at this company:
    “Hi there, 2x Boss. I’m now the only person in this building/department who can do X, and the only person who can train people to do X. I would like a promotion. It has also come to my attention that Betty was making considerably more money than me doing the same job. I would like to get a raise to the market rate, which is $Z.”

    I’ve got to be honest, I’m pretty pissed. I’ve had a couple of bosses who’ve tried to get my salary up to the market rate from that first lowball, but clearly it hasn’t been keeping up. But it’s one thing to be lazy about it, it’s another thing to actively try to hide the information from me.

    1. They Don’t Make Sunday*

      Oh my! How awful. I’ve appreciated the Betty updates. Please update us on your efforts to get the salary you deserve. I’m sorry you’re in this situation, and I’m rooting for you!

      1. allathian*

        Yeah, me too! I really hope you can get the promotion and your salary raised to the market rate, JustaTech. I’m keeping my fingers and toes crossed for you.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      There’s only two parts of your statement that I’d like you to re-consider: The 1st part is asking (instead of telling) your 2x boss “Are you aware that I’m now the only person …?” b/c s/he may not be, and the 2nd part is leaving out the sentence that begins “It has come to my attention … doing the same job” because I’m concerned about how diming Betty out could affect her future reference from your employer. Also, because how you found out isn’t really relevant to the discussion with your boss, is it? What seems more relevant, to me, and what I think you’d want to focus on, is making clear that your salary needs to come up to market rate. I’m sure you have the research skills to go in with whatever kind of data would convince your 2x boss of your reasonableness. But you should also be prepared for how you want to react (in the moment, and afterward) if s/he dismisses your concerns, or just tries to placate you with what you know are empty promises.

      I hope you will come back and let us know how that conversation went. If it makes a difference, I am furious on your behalf, and I would have a really hard time staying calm in that conversation.

  86. lost academic*

    Super annoyed right now at a hiring process. A firm extremely similar to mine with some better practices has been interested in me for months and I finally told them they should make an offer so we could start talking about something concrete. I’m getting slightly mixed or offset messages from the hiring partner vs the senior recruiter which is also frustrating with respect to the goal of the role they want me to fill (it seems to vacillate a bit between lateral move and 1.5 big steps up). The recruiter was very aggressive in pushing for my current salary and what I was looking for, so I gave a fairly general range for current compensation very reluctantly. He responded that they couldn’t make the range I was referencing, and I said, fine, let’s talk about w hat you do think you can do, and he came back this morning with a narrower range that’s below what I would accept and mentioned that it was in line with a certain step above what I was making now.

    IT DOESN’T MATTER WHAT I AM MAKING NOW, I want to shout. You are asking for something different!

    This has flipped my thinking from “I think we’ll come to a good agreement and I’m likely to accept the offer” to “they’re trying to get a top tier hire for a pay grade lower and not being aboveboard about it, so I’m done”. I’ve made it clear that I’m not interested in a lateral move. I’m waiting for actual offer, but not sure if I should bring this up when the hiring partner calls me, which I expect today.

    1. lost academic*

      I didn’t really ask a question, but – how would any of you handle this?

      1. PX*

        Who is the person with real authority in this situation – the recruiter or hiring partner? If its the latter, I’d just be really blunt with them and summarise what you’ve said here: you seem unclear on what you want and dont seem to be able to offer me a sensible amount of money. Here are the things *I* want, let me know if those are feasible. And then outline exactly what role it is you want and what kind of salary you want.

        When people are pursuing you, you have the advantage – so use it. Also, you are free to say you’d prefer to only work with the HP rather than the recruiter if they are being annoying.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      You say “partner”, so I am assuming this is law or medicine or accounting or something similar. Every dollar in salary you make is a dollar of profit that the partners don’t share at the end of the year. So the hiring partner (and the recruiter) may very well be instructed or incentivized to low-ball all of their offers.

      Do you know if the recruiter is an internal employee or an outside recruiter? If outside, you can certainly say during the call that the recruiter’s behavior turned you off.

      As to whether to take the job or not, I think you’ve already made up your mind, right? But there’s a chance you can get your desired range by negotiating directly with the partner.

      1. Lost academic*

        Yes, but they’re hiring me at a commercial level where they expect me to grow the business. People like that pay for themselves and then some. I think this is more about the recruiter (internal) using old practices and miscommunication on the role scope.

  87. CheddarTheCorgi*

    My boss point-blank told me that my career is the least important out of all the staff at my job.

    After hearing this, I am severely unmotivated to do anything at work. I think I need to find another job. I feel trapped in my current job due to health issues.

    How do you deal with feeling really unmotivated after hearing something like this? What should I do?

    1. irene adler*

      Show him up.
      Show him just how wrong he is. Find that next step up job. Then take it!
      Then thank him for giving you the motivation to move on – to greener pastures.
      The only person who’s opinion of your career that should value is YOUR own opinion. Who cares what the boss thinks!

    2. ecnaseener*

      Did your boss say that your role is unimportant, or just that it’s the least crucial out of a bunch of crucial roles?

      Either way it’s a rude thing to say to you, but if you can’t leave (or until you can) I think it’s useful to consider that he might have meant the latter. You get paid to do a job; presumably if you were totally unimportant they wouldn’t have your job. Focus on what you know to be true about the value of your work — when you complete X task, that must help keep things running smoothly, even if it’s not the highest-priority task in the world.

  88. Listing a desired salary in application*

    For several years, I’ve been watching for an opening at a nonprofit I’ve long wanted to work at. Finally, the right job appeared and I applied. They ended up withdrawing the position due to a reorganization and budget issues related to a loss in their revenue, including some layoffs.

    A few days ago, their HR contact wrote to me with a revised job description and strongly encouraging me to reapply. It’s similar enough to the previous description that I am definitely still interested. They posted it on their website but aren’t widely publicizing it as they did previously. An internal staff member has put in a word for me. Both my contact and the HR recruiter reached out on the first day the position was posted. I replied right away and expressed my interest, and the HR person replied back right away that she’s looking forward to seeing my application.

    Here’s my question. The online application involves submitting my cover letter and resume with a required prompt about my desired salary. This time around, they are listing the salary which they didn’t previously. It’s a big cut from what I currently make (think $20,000ish) which they list as “negotiable.” While I am willing to drop a little, there’s no way I can drop down to what they say they’re offering.

    I don’t want them to bounce me out entirely because I want more money especially in the context of their budget cuts. But it wouldn’t be honest to list the salary they are offering, which I can’t do with my current financial situation, and I don’t want to have a request for more to be a sudden surprise should they make me an offer.

    For those of you in HR and hiring, given that they are actively pursuing me, what should I list here? Any advice would be helpful.

    1. Ali G*

      I would list your salary requirement and address the gap in your cover letter. We recently had a similar issue (only we were on the hiring side) and we were transparent about the range, but it was a new position and so we still wanted to talk to her to see if there was a path forward. We are still in process :)
      So if you could acknowledge the gap and let them know you were still interested in talking and seeing if you weren’t as far apart as it seems, or something.

    2. Can Can Cannot*

      Reach out directly to the HR contact and ask about any flexibility in salary. Mention that you are very interested but don’t want to waste their time if there is no chance of coming to terms financially.

    3. BRR*

      I think you need to list the salary you’d accept. You could also put $0, $1, or negotiable but it sounds like there’s a very good chance you won’t be able to match on salary.

      Also I’m a little worried you dream job blinders on for the org. Especially if they’re having financial difficulties, it might be a different work environment than you expected.

  89. PX*

    Sigh. I have a 1-1 development meeting next week and I need to think of something to say which isnt “Can we not bother, I hate it here and am job-hunting like crazy?”

    1. Burns Out*

      Think of it as practice for job interviews, maybe? Where do you want to be in 5 years professionally? What skills do you want to work on and improve for the future job that is not at current company? That might make it slightly less frustrating.

      1. PX*

        Sigh, I wish I could, but one of the reasons I’m job hunting is that the job/company turned out to be a bit of a bait-and-switch, so all the things I *want* to do have very little overlap with my current position (think, I want to do alpaca grooming, this company builds barns to house alpacas. Some overlap, but not much!)

        I’ll probably come up with something vague and related to some training courses that while interesting, will ultimately add not much to my life, but will make me look more aligned to what would be expected for this role.

        1. Can Can Cannot*

          In that case you should simply make the case for the role you want to do (and were originally offered). Let them focus/stew on what they need to do to develop you for the role you want to do; if they can’t do it then let them feel frustrated.

    2. Malarkey01*

      I had to do these two weeks ago and three separate people basically said a form of this last year is really overwhelming and I’m just trying to keep my head above water and continue to perform my regular duties. I’m not up for planning new development or taking on more right now. Can we check back in the fall?
      To all of them I said I hear you and that seems smart. Let me know if there’s anything I can do to make things easier.

      Maybe you can try that to nip things in the bud?

  90. Burns Out*

    My direct report. She asked me a question regarding a project last week. I answered it. She asked me the same question this week for a slightly different, but largely the same situation this week, I provided the same information and clarified why it was essentially the same situation. This feels like my life now. Providing clarifying details on top of clarifying details on top of clarifying details until we get into a world of minutiae and we both forget what the point of the question was. Based on her professional experience, she should have more reasoning than she does. I trust her to do nothing of great importance. My boss likes her because she can perform one function of her job extremely well. The rest of her job is me trying to corral the chaos and turn it into some semblance of decency. She’s not a bad person. She wants to help, I know she does. She wants to be productive and supportive. But, she simply doesn’t have the capacity to provide the support I’d like. So I muddle my way through. Trying to rise above the fray of simmering frustration over my general employment (I’d love to quit my job and live in a cave). I recognize I have burnout and I also recognize that my direct report is not to blame. But she doesn’t help. And honestly, I ‘m not even sure I have the bandwidth to deal with hiring and onboarding someone new. These are the days I loathe being a middle manager and wish I was still in my nice little IC job doing my work and calling it a day.

    1. Unkempt Flatware*

      Hmmmm….my new boss seems irritated when I ask the same question or forget a topic we discussed but I am only a month in and the work is highly political and complex. It doesn’t sound like you are being like my boss. Is it possible to reflect to determine if you struggle with communication in any way? The boss I just left talked in circles and never seemed to be on my same page. Since this was a problem she had with all of the team, it was clear she was the common denominator and no one could understand her due to the circles. Are you sure you’re not hearing a question she didn’t actually ask? Like reading into a bit? I assume based on your post that you are being direct but I just wanted to offer some points of possible reflection. Good luck.

      1. Burns Out*

        It’s a valid question. I don’t think you’re my direct report and I don’t think I’m like your boss, though there may be times I provide a lot of information, perhaps too much… Still, I try to offer not only an answer, but an explanation so that the question / task can be applied to other things in the future. Except the information is not being applied, so maybe I’m overextending myself for no reason. Because while in some cases she focuses on the smallest detail, in other cases she doesn’t think to bring me in at all, despite knowing that it’s sensitive, political, or challenging. It’s a conundrum. I do not understand it. I doubt I ever will and I honestly and truly believe it is not something that can be taught or learned. It’s a disconnect that doesn’t have a solution, because it relies on a particular understanding of the job that she simply doesn’t do well.

        1. LurkNoMore*

          Then maybe it’s time to let them go – based on your comments, you don’t believe they have the ability to do the job.

          1. Burns Out*

            Would love to. I no longer have the energy to fight my boss, who feels she’s valuable enough to keep around.

    2. beach read*

      Can you get creative and do some shuffling of the tasks? Could you make a case for hiring/re-assigning someone else to you and she keeps the function of the job she excels at?

  91. The Dude Abides*

    I’ve seen people in other comment sections talk about “technical track” vs “management track” positions within the IT field, and that is something I’ve been stewing on for over a year.

    If a position involves supervising/managing people or having a direct report, I want no part of it. If offered such a position, I’d ask for an offer in writing and a face-to-face meeting before ripping it up Pelosi-style and walking out.

    What concerns me is that in my trade of choice (accounting), there is no obvious analogue to the “technical track.” The person I replaced moved up to a supervisor title, and based on the job titles within my agency, everything above me is managerial and non-union. I would consider going back to a private employer if the right position is available, but my fear is that what I’m looking for doesn’t exist.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      In your career, the equivalent to “technical track” would be all sorts of niche specialities that start to get more into law than straight accounting (Tahitian bankruptcy provisions or something). And you might have to end up working for a Big 4 if you wanted a chance to exercise those muscles.

      If you’re working in a corporate or government setting, then accountants are going to end up supervising accounts payable clerks, etc. I’m not sure there’s a way to get out of that.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      I’m an attorney and what you are describing is often called in law an “individual contributor” role. Sometimes they can be quite senior — but the idea is that some people just don’t want to manage other people — they just want to be left to be excellent individual contributors. I think a lot of places (especially larger companies) value such employees, especially in the support functions (law, compliance, accounting).

      1. The Dude Abides*

        This is exactly what I’m looking for. The state gov’t is by far the largest employer in the area, so it’s a matter of finding a role/title that fits the bill. I don’t think there is one within my agency, but I have a note to ask about it at my first review.

  92. ambivalent*

    This is the third time I’m posting this question on Alison’s site, I am confused why it keeps disappearing. Not sure if I’m tripping any commenting rules, I think this is pretty SFW. I was interviewing somebody who, I found, had spent a year in a cult (I looked it up on the internet, their website and comments in various chat-rooms suggest it’s a new age cult with iffy practices). The candidate told me they had to ‘mature’ but didn’t dwell on it, and I didn’t either. I rejected the candidate for other reasons (lacking sufficient technical skills), but was put off somewhat by the ‘cult’ thing. I was wondering if it would have been religious discrimination if that HAD been the reason for rejection, because honestly I would have viewed, say, volunteering in a well-respected religious org (like… salvation army?) or meditating in a Buddhist temple in Tibet more favorably. My other concern was more general, that this person maybe burned out from the previous technical role, why are they applying to the exact same kind of job again. Just wondering what others think. Also wondering what the candidate could have done better about the ‘cult’ work history, given they had spent a full year there.

    1. Reba*

      re: comment mechanics, it’s probably just being sent into moderation, and comments that get filtered that way are usually released later.

      I have no idea what “mature” means but presumably it made sense in context? Were they explaining why they were a member? If I were giving advice to this person, I think I’d tell them to try to leave this work history off the resume if at all possible, because it does then invite this kind of questioning. But that might depend on exactly how iffy the iffy stuff is.

      I do think you should try to set it aside when considering the candidate, and it sounds like you did (more immediate concerns about skills made the decision).

      1. ambivalent*

        They explained that they needed to find themselves / mature – I guess like, learning the true meaning of life kind of thing. For a spiritual camp I think it makes sense, it’s just not mainstream. It was a whole year (and no jobs in between, they were unemployed after the ‘camp’ and were looking for work), so they’d have had to find some good excuse to leave it off their resume. I guess they calculated that saying they had been unemployed for a year would have looked worse (this was all pre-covid). I don’t know exactly how iffy as in dangerous, but it certainly sounded cra-cra. But you know, intelligent people sometimes join cults, and I wasn’t sure if I should therefore assume ‘bad judgement’. In the interview they seemed pretty normal. I didn’t push too hard during the interview because I was afraid of the religious discrimination angle (like if I dwelled on it and rejected them, they might think it was because of that). But I am asking the commentariat what would have been right if the skills weren’t the deal-breaker.

    2. Donkey Hotey*

      as to disappearance: Are you composing somewhere else and then copy/pasting here? There can be a lot of hidden code that will gunk up a post and trigger moderation or deletion.

      as to their “cult”: Did they list it on their resume? Or bring it up in an interview? I’ll wager a bright and shiny nickel that many of the grey-haired and soon to be retiring people had questionable stuff in their life history “back in the day.” Hell, I spent 15 years volunteering for a church that I would not claim at a fire sale now. I don’t put it on my resume, even though I learned a lot. Translation: I matured. Allow them the chance to mature as well.

      bonus irony: Speaking for myself, I’m less likely to question a new age cult than I would the Salvation Army. I strongly disagree with their politics.

      It’s your last comment that makes me scratch my head: “MAYBE burned out from the previous role, why are they applying to the same job again?” Respectfully, unless they told you in as many words, you don’t know if they burned out or if they might see your company as doing similar work with a better corporate culture or benefits.

      1. ambivalent*

        Thanks, it must have taken some time before being posted so I didn’t see it.

    4. Littorally*

      Do you mean that the candidate was a member of the cult, that they were working for the cult’s business office, or both?

      Almost certainly it would count as religious discrimination if you declined to hire the candidate based on their past membership in a particular religious organization. “Cult” is a pretty pejorative term; what counts as “iffy” practices is very much in the eye of the beholder. Rephrase it to yourself – “I don’t like the religious practices the candidate presumably used to partake in. I don’t want to hire them because of it.” That sure sounds like religious discrimination, doesn’t it? And besides that — the candidate left! They’re not a part of it anymore! Are they forever tarred in your eyes because they joined up with an organization you don’t like for a brief time?

      If it was something relevant to the work — for example, someone who previously worked for the notoriously homophobic and transphobic Salvation Army (not so well respected by many, in fact) now applying to work at an LGBT health collective, you would be justified in asking some probing questions about the candidate’s attachment to that job’s mission vs this job’s mission. That is directly relevant to their suitability for the role. But that’s really about it.

      1. pancakes*

        Yeah. The Salvation Army was found to have violated anti-discrimination laws in my city, and it’s lobbied against the repeal of anti-LGBTQ laws in Scotland and New Zealand.

    5. ambivalent*

      So final clarification, yes she put it on her resume, which was one of the things I questioned about her judgement, but then again, I’m not sure what else she could have done because it was a whole year, and she was looking for a job immediately after (if it was many years ago she probably could have just left it off her resume). And I was wondering if it’s fair for a hiring manager to say “somebody who joins a religious org believing in space-aliens is not ok, but somebody who joins an org believing in Christianity is ok”. I am hearing from most people that no, if they did this it would be discrimination. That makes sense to me, and I appreciate the feedback from people who responded nicely. As I stated clearly, the reason she was rejected was for lack of skills. But I wanted to be prepared mentally for a similar situation in the future.

      1. RagingADHD*

        I’d make another caveat- if the listed organization was shut down or the leader “busted” for illegal activity, and there was a credible basis to believe that the candidate knew about or participated in that activity, I think that’s a valid factor to consider.

        Likewise, if the candidate and/or the organization participated in public activity that conflicts with your org’s values (like the Westboro church that disrupts military funerals with hate speech), that’s valid, too. Because that’s not belief, it’s public behavior.

  93. Vax*

    I’m currently in a nursing/rehab facility. I’ve been here since January. I’m a shade under 50, it’s a long story, but it’s the right place for me.
    I’ve been getting almost daily notices of staff member(s) and/or patients who have Covid. At that point, the visitation (in person! Yay!) clock starts over again. It has to be two weeks of no Covid cases (staff or residents) before in-person visits can happen. Just yesterday we got a letter saying visits could be scheduled. I was so excited! Then today we got a notification that a staff member has tested positive. So we start all over. These notifications have been coming since two days in early March when we finally made it to allow in-person visits.
    Residents were vaccinated in January and February. Staff were also offered (for free of course) the vaccine.
    Now I’m so angry and annoyed that I want to ask every single person who walks into my room if they have been vaccination. Anyone knowledgeable in the AAM village who can tell me should I? Should I not? I’m sure I should MYOB but this is ridiculous.
    Why go into healthcare (especially with vulnerable people) and a science-based job if you don’t believe in it/aren’t willing to protect the people?

    Alison- if this is too political, feel free to delete.

    1. Barb*

      My mother is in a nursing home and we have had the same problem. As I told the administrator last time they stopped visits, the problem isn’t the visitors it’s the unimmunized staff.
      However, the department of HHS has said (end of March) visits need to be opened up in nursing homes, etc, and CDC says asymptomatic vaccinated people don’t need to quarantine.
      So now my state and my mother’s facility are letting us visit even with + cases. Thank God. It’s been a long year for all.
      Good luck to you

    2. pancakes*

      I don’t agree you should MYOB. The facility you’ve been living in for months and relying on for healthcare is failing patients, staff, and the broader community by not requiring staff to be vaccinated. (It’s unlikely, for example, that all staff live alone). Two of my closest friends are taking turns caring for their mother in their home state, and encountered something similar in a rehab facility she was spending time in, and at one of her doctor’s offices. Both were reluctant to enforce masking. One of the friends is a writer and sometimes journalist, and she did some digging into transmission rates, and approached the local paper about what was happening. It became a whole thing, and the unflattering public scrutiny did force improvement. I realize that isn’t an actionable or realistic path for most people in similar situations, but I think it’s perfectly fair to complain about it, and keep complaining about it unless and until they come to their senses.

    3. BRR*

      I don’t think you should because it’s not going to accomplish what you want it to. I do think it’s appropriate to bring that up to management (or someone?) to explore alternative plans though. And if the past few notices have all been staff you certainly are fine to bring that up.

  94. Jenny*

    Should you negotiate salar even when you feel like you’d be lucky to get any job offer at all?

    I don’t have an impressive job history. After college, I had a bunch of short term temp roles over 2 years, then a longer contractor position for 2 years. I was only at my first “real” job for 2 years before getting laid off. Then I was unemployed for 2 years before taking my current job out of desperation (currently at the 6 month mark).

    I’m now a finalist for 2 jobs. One I’m “overqualified” for (it requires a high school or associates degree but I have a BA, and one to two years of office experience whereas I have 6 years of it). The other job listed like 15 requirements/preferences, and I only meet like 10 of them, so I’m “underqualified.”

    If I’m offered a job, should I try to negotiate even though I have a bad job history? I don’t feel like I have a compelling case to ask for more money, but I read you should always try to negotiate.

    1. Kathenus*

      The main goal of negotiation is to try to achieve either fair market compensation for that role/location (COL) – and/or – meet whatever your personal salary requirements are. While there are some who recommend the ‘you should always negotiate’ advice, in my view it’s in the same vein as the ‘you should call and follow up so they know you’re interested’ vein. If you get an offer that you think is fair, there is no reason you have to negotiate, especially if you feel that with your job history you think it is a good salary for the position/location and your experience. So negotiating is an option that you should have and use when needed, but in my opinion not something that you should do ‘just because’. Good luck!

      1. ferrina*

        +1
        Don’t sell yourself short, because you don’t want to have to look again in a year just to get paid fairly.
        But if they give you a fair offer that you will still be happy with in a year, then there isn’t a need to negotiate.

        Good luck!

    2. Trying my best and hoping it's enough*

      I’d focus on what the market is paying instead of your own salary history! Consider how qualified you are for the position and ask for that level within a reasonable range for the position in your regional area.

    3. Ya Girl*

      Yes, negotiate! Don’t ask for a 200% increase of what they’re offering or anything crazy, but do negotiate. Otherwise you are always going to be hamstrung by those early spotty jobs.

  95. Red Panda*

    My wonderful boss is leaving for a new job in a few weeks. I am helping to organize a little virtual get together for his departure but I don’t really know what would work (I am in my early twenties and quite new to the workforce). I am definitely going to do a virtual card. What else have you found effective and fun in these situations?

    1. Colette*

      It depends on what you’d normally do. If you want it to be a social event (without a speech or other thing that involves everyone), then something like gather or wonder is a good way to do that – everyone has an avatar on the screen, but you only get video and audio of someone when your avatars are close together. If you want an activity, https://skribbl.io/ or https://swellgarfo.com/scattergories/ are good group games.

    2. Games*

      Our office has done trivia games about the person (ask your coworkers for fodder since you’re new, or even if you weren’t they’ll know stuff about your boss that you don’t). You can just ask the questions or set up a Jeopardy type game. We also recently had a crossword puzzle about the person! There are apparently crossword puzzle generators on the web.

      1. Colette*

        Oh yes, you can make crosswords or wordsearches online, and custom jigsaw puzzles.

  96. jpchatham*

    I’m a member of the governing board of a nonprofit community music group, and we’re in the process of hiring a music director. One of my personal goals with this hiring process is to make sure we put together a benefits package that is likely to actually be appealing and fair to whoever we hire, and also legal.

    The music director will be expected to spend 8-10 hours per week working, except for our 4 concert weeks which will be more like 30-35 hours each. We’d like to hire them as a salaried non-exempt employee where we tell them not to go over 10 hours per week except concert weeks, and pay them $X*10 per week (paying monthly). We’ll still collect records of actual time worked and pay extra if they do work extra, but ideally most of the non-concert paychecks will be the same amount.

    So, I have a few questions for y’all:
    – Those of you who have held similar positions or know people who have, does this sound like a decent way to handle things from the employee’s side? What sort of payment schedule would you prefer? What other benefits would you look for?
    – Is there a legal way to keep *all* the paychecks close to the same amount, even the ones that include concert weeks? Maybe if we spread the payment for the expected extra concert hours over the previous months? Or is that just asking for a lawsuit? (We’re in Colorado if that makes a difference)
    – Our resident finance expert says we can hire the music director as an exempt employee under either a nonprofit exemption or a creative professional exemption. My understanding is that there is no such exemption for a position paying less than $20,000/year as ours will. Who’s right?
    – How important would it be to run this by a local employment lawyer? And if it would be important, do you have any suggestions on how to find one and how to convince the rest of the board to pay for it?

    Thanks so much!

    1. Colette*

      This is not my area of expertise, but here’s what I’d think about.

      1) If it is legal to keep all of the paychecks close to the same amount (which it might be, you’d be paying in advance which I would image is OK), what will you do if the director quits/gets sick and doesn’t work the busy period?
      2) As I understand it, if you hired the director as exempt, you’d have to pay them every week that they work at least one day; how would that work on your less busy weeks? I think you’d be better off just paying what they work.

      1. OyHiOh*

        I just looked at this a couple weeks ago in regards to a question I had (regarding my own pay, happily 90% resolved now). In Colorado, the rule is that work must be paid for within 30 days or by the end of the month, whichever is sooner. If you averaged the concert weeks together with the rehersal weeks to create a weekly/monthly average, you could do that, but you might also loose good candidates who feel like their concert week work isn’t taken into consideration.

    2. AcademiaNut*

      The spreading the salary out to be even sounds really dodgy to me – I absolutely wouldn’t do that without talking to an employment lawyer. Also, if they quit before the concert week, you’d be out the extra money (or they’d be out the salary, depending on start date). My understanding of part-time exempt is the same as yours – there’s a hard lower limit on salary. But again, lawyer up if you want to try this.

      A fixed 10 hour a week contract at $X an hour sounds pretty reasonable – think about how you’ll handle sick leave/vacation with it though. Then the concert weeks where they get $X an hour for up to 40 hours.

      AS to how to convince the board – if you get this wrong, it will cost money. You’ll not only owe back pay, but also be fined for breaking employment law.

  97. DC*

    It’s getting harder and harder to keep applying to jobs just to get rejections. I used to think I was competent, and now I’m questioning my ability to do even the most basic of duties.

    How do I keep applying? How do you take a year of covid-unemployment and turn it into and job? It was easy to say “employers will overlook this gap” until it was clear they AREN’T.

    1. Colette*

      Have you tried networking with people you used to work with? I found that really helpful – I’d go in with some questions about their job/company/change of path, and we’d have a 15-30 minute chat, and I’d come out feeling competent (because that’s how they saw me).

      I’d also suggest that it’s possible that the issue isn’t the gap. It could be that some work on your resume or cover letter would help, or that they are innundated with other applicants.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      I wouldn’t assume that the gap is the issue. One thing to remember is that a lot of people are unemployed due to COVID, so that means there are that many more folks looking to apply. Not getting called doesn’t mean that you’re not good, just that others were a better fit, as least on paper.

      Keep applying and make sure to tailor your resume and cover letter. I know it’s hard to keep doing that when you’re getting rejections, but please remember it’s not personal and you have a lot to offer a company.

      You got this :)

  98. Parasaurolophus*

    I’m wondering if anyone can offer advice regarding having a manager who has too much work – I’ve seen articles on how to tell your manager that you have too much work, but my issue is that my manager works way too much (consistently 20-30 hours of overtime a week) and barely has time for the people who report to her. This has been an issue ever since I started working for her 10 years ago, but has gotten worse during the pandemic. I’ve tried offering to take on some of her workload, but she either can’t or won’t delegate enough to meaningfully get her hours down. I also don’t feel comfortable telling her directly that her workload is causing me issues because she hasn’t reacted well to those kinds of conversations in the past. Is there anything I can do, or do I just manage my own workload and my team’s, and continue to be available for her to delegate to?

    1. Colette*

      What problems is it causing for you? For example, do you need faster responses? More face time? How can you solve those issues? (e.g. a weekly one-on-one) That’s what I’d ask for.

      1. Parasaurolophus*

        I need more guidance and time from her, but when I ask for it she says she doesn’t have time. She also gets kind of snappy and short when she’s particularly stressed.

  99. Schumpeter_Destruction*

    Apologies for the long post. I’ve been with my current company for almost a decade. I was promoted into my last role, which was a big jump in responsibility, on potential rather than experience.

    Among other things, my company is not good at training or onboarding people. We hire an expensive asset, and let them flail around for a year trying to figure it out alone, rather than support them to become productive quickly… And we are a complex organization to navigate.

    As an internal person, I knew this when I applied for the role, thought hard about it when I was selected, and decided to take it on. For succinctness, I won’t go into my reasons but they were sound.

    Two years down the line, I feel completely burnt out, disengaged and failing. My mental health is at rock bottom.
    I am not good at key parts of my job – say 30-40% of it, and when I ask for support, training or some space in my workload to learn on my own and close these development gaps, my boss insists that I am fine. “You don’t realise how much you know about xyz. You need to boost your self-confidence”. I am a self-aware person, and I know when I am good! I think it’s pretty obvious to others that I am not, in fact, good at some of the things I am meant to be doing. Meaningful colleague support is not an option due to politics/competition.

    If there was no pandemic/massive economic crisis, I would have resigned, recovered and made a fresh start elsewhere. As it is, our industry has taken a big hit. Layoffs all around, including at our company. I am terrified that if I give up my job, I will have to start at the bottom again, after finally having achieved some financial security.
    Somewhat childishly, the thought of giving up a decent job and salary after years of grunt work, due to (what I feel is, in great part) my organization’s lack of investment in their employees, feels “unfair”. I know that’s the burnout speaking… tantrum over.

    More worryingly, I can’t in good conscience apply for jobs similar to mine (should any come up) as I don’t have the level of expertise expected for someone with a 2-year tenure. My company is prestigious in its sector, and there would certainly be expectations from that alone.

    Do I just need to reconcile myself that I need to move on, get some rest, even if I have to start at the bottom again? Should I go to my boss again? I suspect she is battling her own demons, and the organization is pretty dysfunctional anyway (in an inefficient, shoot yourself in the foot type of way, not horrible people/situations we read on AAM). Should I sit it out for now, given my manager thinks it’s “fine” (at the risk of completely destroying my once hi-po rep and what’s left of my sanity?)

    External perspectives would be very welcome, as I am going round and round in circles in my head getting nowhere but down…

    1. Roci*

      I was in your similar situation with poor training/onboarding and it tanked my confidence and mental health. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this.

      Here is what you know:
      – Part of your current role is not just to do the job, but to teach yourself the job. You know this because your org is not good at training people so a successful person in this role will be able to navigate this. Are you able to teach yourself this role? What would that look like?

      – Your assessment of your competency is that you’re only achieving 60-70% of your responsibilities well. That is most of them! And your mental health state means that you may not be able to assess yourself accurately. Your boss says that what you are doing now is good enough for them. I don’t see anything that suggests your job is in jeopardy. If your industry is in a tough spot, 60-70% success amidst a global pandemic might be good enough.

      – You were hired to this role based on your potential to fulfill it. Do you/your boss still see you having the potential to fulfill it? What does that timeline look like, is this a role you need 2 years or 5 years to learn? How is your role and your success relative to expectations being assessed?

      – If this role is not a good fit for you right now, is it possible to be demoted back to your old position? I don’t see why you have to give up your whole job if you were promoted to a stretch position and it didn’t work out. Companies do this all the time.

      – If you determine that the company environment is too toxic for you to succeed and you need a fresh start, could you search for jobs like your old position? What about a job like your new position but in a different situation where you can minimize that 30-40% you’re not great at? What is the job market even like, actually? Don’t pre-emptively assume that companies will be disappointed in you, that is fatalistic thinking–that’s the mental health demon talking.

      – Priority one is your mental health. Most of these questions are more practical about your job but you won’t be able to turn the job around if your head is in a bad space. It’s impossible to accurately assess things if your assessor is set at “This sucks”. First take care of yourself and then worry about your job. You will figure this out!!

      1. Schumpeter_Destruction*

        Roci, thank you very much for your thoughtful and clearheaded answer.

  100. FutureStudentMaybe?*

    I currently work full-time as a receptionist. I dropped out of college and I’m weighing my options regarding completing my degree in the future. One possibility is going to college full-time and continuing to work as a receptionist part-time. After a discussion with my manager I know my current employer could not accommodate me as a part-time worker, so I’ve started researching what kind of part-time receptionist jobs are out there in my area.

    I’ve noticed many part-time job postings are really vague about the hours per week and schedule and will give ranges like “20 – 30 hours per week, 9 AM – 9 PM Monday through Saturday” rather than specific shifts…how should I handle this in the future? Should I apply and hope if I get an interview the employer will specify which shifts they’re looking to fill? And if I’m trying to get shifts around my future college schedule, when should I disclose that to potential employers? Like should I mention that in the cover letter, during the interview, or at the offer stage?

    1. Alex*

      I would assume if they give a range like that, it means that the job is flexible. Like, they are looking for someone to do some stuff, and they are OK if you want to work four days a week for five hours in the afternoon, or five days a week for four hours in the morning, etc.

    2. new kid*

      Are there evening classes that you could take to finish your degree? I’m not sure how common that is for undergrad but I know it’s fairly common for grad programs so you may want to look into that as an alternate solution. Night classes might even allow you to keep working your current full time job depending on the number of credits you need/how quickly you want to finish.

    3. No Tribble At All*

      Another option for you is classes online, if you’re interested. Programs can offer both virtual live classes & pre-recorded lectures, so you wouldn’t have to commute to campus for class. Or you could watch the lectures at your own discretion.

    4. Blue Eagle*

      Mentioning it in the cover letter is probably too soon as they might use your requirements to screen your application out without considering it further. Mentioning it at the time of an offer is probably too late. If they have specific time requirements that don’t fit your schedule then they will likely withdraw the offer, which doesn’t help you.
      Looks like mentioning at the interview probably makes the most sense. Also fyi, I had a part-time 20 hr. job one year in college and in the fall worked 8-12 and scheduled my classes after 12:30 and in the winter worked 1-5 and scheduled my classes before 12:30. Hopefully something like that would work for you.

  101. ObservantServant*

    I work for a small company that’s expanding but realistically just past the start-up phase. We’ve always been fully remote. We’ve hired in other areas in the past but most EEs are at least within our large state.

    We’ll be hiring soon for what amounts to my old position that mostly involves data analysis and number crunching. A decent laptop with at least an average processor and memory is a necessary tool as is a second monitor.

    When I was hired as a PT contractor, I had my own recently purchased laptop and plenty of other office equipment though I did force my boss/owner to buy me a full Office suite because I couldn’t use the dumbed down version of XLS via Office 365. When that laptop began to fail, I purchased a new laptop & monitor and was fully reimbursed without question. The last person I hired for this role wasn’t willing to use the laptop they shared with their son for work so one was provided as was a monitor. That equip was passed along to someone else when the original user left the co.

    My boss/owner doesn’t want to say one way or the other if we will provide equip in the new job ad. He seems to think that any decent data analyst will already have their own but would be willing to provide it if needed. Thoughts on how you’d see that policy as a potential new hire?

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      I think the employer should provide all the equipment to do the job. For security protocols, IT standards, etc.

    2. ferrina*

      I don’t look for equipment in a job ad because I assume my employer will provide it. I will provide my skills and expertise, but they will give me the tools and software.

      Saying a data analyst needs to provide their own equipment would raise red flags for me. It’s one thing to expect a contractor to provide their own equipment, but an employee? What if your work machine breaks and you need to send it in for repairs? What if your employer wants you to download software you don’t want on your personal machine (or vice versa). What if someone gets sued? Guess what’s now up for discovery?

      I’d also be wary about whether the employer was a cheapskate. Would they be looking to nickel and dime me in other ways?

      My mostly remote company sends every new hire a new laptop and other equipment as part of the onboarding process.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      He seems to think that any decent data analyst will already have their own but would be willing to provide it if needed.

      1. Any decent employer will automatically provide equipment.
      2. Any decent data analyst will have the ability to find a decent employer to work for.

    4. WellRed*

      I would always assume a company provides equipment. Why..,wouldn’t they? I also think a boss that forces people to provide equipment gets what they deserve when the employee’s teenage son causes a security issue or something.

    5. ObservantServant*

      Thanks, everyone. I agree completely with all of the above. I wanted to hear what potential applicants might think to bolster my argument when I push back on this.

    6. PollyQ*

      If you’re doing work for someone, they provide the supplies & equipment, as well as any needed support for it. There’s no reason why any of that burden should be shifted to an employee. (Yes, there are some exceptions for this, e.g., chefs & their knives, but I don’t see any reason for computer-based jobs.)

  102. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

    I applied for a public sector position a couple weeks ago via the agency’s HR portal, with the deadline today. The job ad said first round interviews were going to be mid May. I saw last week it was now posted through a recruiter. I emailed the recruiter to say, hey did you get my materials from HR, and they assured me they had. Later that day (2 days before the original deadline under which I had applied), they sent an email that I assume was to all candidates whose materials they had, saying the deadline was pushed out again to a later date this month, and interviews are now scheduled for a June week. I will be on vacation (yay) and totally unavailable that particular week (and a day or two on either end). I consider myself a strong candidate for this position, and think I would at least get a first interview, although I’m not sure how interested I really am. (I need to hear more from the agency.) Should I email the recruiter now to say I’m on vacation at that time? Should I wait to see if I’m offered an interview? Should I take a chill pill since I might not even be a serious candidate?

    1. ferrina*

      Wait until you’re offered an interview. Some people may assume that saying you are unavailable as a roadblock and will use it as an excuse not to interview.
      The hiring process always takes longer than expected, so don’t be surprised if they push the timeline again. Just make sure to check you email while you’re on vacation!

  103. MacGillicuddy*

    While reading an earlier post about how to rank an employee’s level of competency in various areas, I saw the phrases “excels in areas a, b, and c” and “areas d and e are opportunities for growth”.

    I’ve been in a professional level job at several companies, (being vague for anonymity) for over 30 years and been through many evaluations with excellent bosses and horrible ones. And the wording “opportunities for growth” to mean “needs improvement” has always set my teeth on edge. I find it patronizing and condescending, as if the person will dissolve into tears if their boss tells them they need to work on ThingX.
    I think it contributes to the problem of a boss being too subtle when talking about things the employee needs to work on.

    Besides, an opportunity for growth is when the boss gives me more advanced tasks, not when my work is sub-par.

    The other time a similar phrase is used is when a company gets bought, people get laid off, and some grand poo-bah with a golden parachute pitches the “this is your Wonderful Opportunity to re-examine your career and try something Really New and Exciting and by the way, you’re eligible for unemployment.”

    This stuff makes the needle on my bullsh!t meter go all the way into the red zone.

    1. OtterB*

      I think there are two different situations. One is where the employee needs to improve in some areas for the job they are currently in, and there I agree “opportunities for growth” might be a little precious. Although it’s possible that they are about where you expect them to be as an entry-level employee but still have room to improve and grow into the job.

      But another situation that has come up here sometimes is trying to figure out what to say to an employee who genuinely is doing a good job all the way around. “Keep up the good work, talk to you next year!” is sometimes a little too hands-off. So it’s reasonable to identify areas in which they could grow to prepare themselves for the future.

      1. MacGillicuddy*

        Yes, what you describe is genuinely opportunities for growth. It’s using that phrase when “needs improvement” is the actual meaning. I’ve even seen evaluation forms for annual reviews that never use the term “needs improvement” anywhere.

    2. Roci*

      Totally agree. My company regularly calls problems “opportunities”. Not even “challenges”, just straight-up “opportunities”. What’s wrong with “problems”?

  104. exhausted*

    I just found out that a good, but quirky employee thinks (and is telling co-workers) I’m “crazy” and a “mean a$$hole” and I am baffled and upset. She’s been with us for about three years and we’ve never naturally connected, but I thought we had a professonal and friendly relationship. She is career-oriented and we’ve bent over backwards not just providing but seeking opportunities to provide training and development to support her professional goals. I genuinely thought we were doing really well by her and I’m just agog.

    1. Colette*

      That sounds like a problem on her end. Personally, I think I’d call her on it – “I’ve heard from a couple of people that you’re saying I’m crazy and mean – what’s going on? Is there a problem I can help with?”

  105. Time for Tea*

    Just had an employee resign and my grandboss chewed me out for “micromanaging” him and making him feel unappreciated. I pointed out that my boss and I were getting ready to put Resigning Person on a PIP due to poor work quality. I suspect that Resigning Person is complaining because he didn’t like being managed and held to account, but Grandboss still wants me to take a good hard look at my actions. fwiw, I manage 2 other people and neither have any complaints about my management style. My boss has monthly skip level with my team and no complaints have come up. I have several years of 360 reviews with strong reviews from all my direct reports, and the only time complaints come up (twice in over three years) is when I had big conversations about performance issues (both when the person didn’t get a promotion they wanted).

    Any tips on what I should do? If I’m wrong, I want to improve, but if I’m right, I guess I need to look like I’m taking action?

    1. irene adler*

      Sounds like your grandboss needs to provide specific examples of your ‘micromanaging’ and your making the Resigning Person “feel unappreciated.” That’s where you need to start. Maybe you are not fully aware of how you come across in certain conversations (too factual? not enough concern over delivering bad news to someone?). And, maybe this is completely an issue of the now-departed employee. But you cannot determine that unless specifics are provided.

      Maybe the issue is how those big conversations go when you discuss any kind of performance issues with people. Any way to obtain specifics regarding those two complaints?

      1. Time for Tea*

        Grandboss didn’t have any example :( When I tried to talk about this specific employee (he had this issue, I did that responses, did I do right?) he shrugged and said that I needed to figure out how to try to do things differently.

        I can ask my boss, but I’d been consulting with her all along and she said that I was doing the right things.

        1. PollyQ*

          Your grandboss sucks, and the next question is: how well does your boss have your back, and how much capital does she have? It’s very odd that a grandboss would be taking the side of a much lower-level employee over the word of your & your boss. Ideally, your boss would have pushed back hard and told GB that RP was a poor employee, that the company was well rid of him, and that you hadn’t done anything wrong at all. I know that level of response isn’t always practical or safe, though.

          1. irene adler*

            If grandboss cannot offer concrete examples, and parries with “figure it out for yourself” then that’s a big sign that you are not the issue here. And that he sucks.

            Lean on your immediate boss for support.

            Should grandboss bring up the subject again, keep asking for specifics. Because you can’t change what you don’t understand. And without concrete examples, he’s not giving you any way to understand what he wants or what you should or shouldn’t do down the line. That’s no way to manage.

            Sounds like maybe he caught some flak regarding this resignation. Maybe someone he reports to doesn’t like to have folks resign like Resigning Person did. Maybe there was criticism of him in the exit interview. So, in response, he takes it out on you. Again, that’s no way to manage.

            (in one sense, he’s giving you a lesson on how not to manage people, FWIW)

    2. Girasol*

      You have taken action: you’ve taken a good hard look at what you did and researched the situation in past records. If you really think that you might not be objective, you could chat with some staff members. Then if the boss asks, you can explain what you did. But best not bring it up if he doesn’t ask. I’ve had several bosses dress me down over crazy things before, and I’ve worried and worked and prepared for the next meeting and shown him how seriously I’d taken his feedback, only to have him say that he never said that at all. And then I realized that the boss must have had an uncomfortable meeting with an angry employee, blew off steam on me, and then forgot all about the whole thing.

  106. mak*

    How honest should I be to grandboss about feedback on my boss? I am currently looking for other opportunities internally/externally primarily because of the management (or lack thereof) style of boss. They are both relatively new in roles at company – boss < 1 yr, and grandboss < 6 months, but I've been around long enough to know that I know I need a change for my own personal/professional health.

    1. Trying my best and hoping it's enough*

      I’d focus on one (or mayyyybe) two areas to mention for improvement (and hopefully something they can pretty easily fix like cancelling meetings at the last minute is challenging or communication about the vacation coverage, etc.) and to compliment whatever you can legitmately share honestly.

      1. mak*

        Thanks. I really want to mention things like lack of follow-up and communication. Or that they don’t complete any of their action items which makes it incredibly hard for me to do my job. Or the fact that they refuse to put anything into writing so checkpoint and deadlines are constantly sliding. They underestimate resourcing, and don’t take any of the SME input into consideration.

        So many things. Now i gotta think.

    2. Trying my best and hoping it's enough*

      I’d focus on one (or mayyyybe two) areas to mention for improvement (and hopefully something they can pretty easily fix like cancelling meetings at the last minute is challenging or communication about the vacation coverage, etc.) and to compliment whatever you can legitmately share honestly.

    3. ferrina*

      Yeah, I’d be really neutral about this. Without evidence to the contrary, assume everything you say will be quoted verbatim to your boss.
      I agree with Trying My Best- pick a couple gentle, easy-to-fix things to give feedback on, a couple honest things to be complimentary of, and the rest of it diplomatic or neutral. Don’t lie (unless you absolutely need to)- if your grandboss asks a direct question, answer honestly but neutrally.

      It’s a tough position, because a good grandboss could make a difference, but you may not know if they are good and the consequences can be steep if you say the wrong thing to the wrong person. You aren’t obligated to say anything if you think it would put your job or wellbeing in jeopardy.

      Good luck!

  107. RJ*

    Any advice for balancing a career with a time-intensive hobby? I’m an aspiring long-distance hiker and plan to complete several trails along the lines of the Appalachian Trail, as well as a number of shorter-but-not-short trails. I just can’t figure out how to reconcile a meaningful career with taking 6+ months off every few years to go hiking. I’m in government admin right now, which I enjoy and am good at, but it’s very much a 40 hours a week job that doesn’t seem to lend itself well to repeated breaks from the workforce, especially if I want to advance. I’m open to trying new fields, but my skillset is pretty administrative in nature.
    Ultimately I think the answer is that I can’t have both things I want, and if it comes down to choosing between a rewarding career and limited hiking versus a less fulfilling career that’s enough to fund the hikes, I’ll choose the latter. I just wish I could figure out how to thread the needle on this.

    1. ObservantServant*

      How well do your skills transfer to other industries? Maybe an outdoor-oriented company like REI, EMS, etc would be understanding and willing to grant you that kind of time off. Other companies (I know Chipotle is one, for example – at least I know they used to) grant sabbatical time off for exactly this kind of thing.

    2. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      I feel like a job that runs with the academic year might be a little more suited for this, since you know you’d have 10 weeks or so off in a chunk annually. Otherwise, it is pretty darn hard to take more than 3 weeks off consecutively in a calendar year in my experience in the public sector.

      1. Reba*

        I thought of this, and there are also some government jobs (parks, maybe others) that run 9 or 10 months of the year.

      2. Reba*

        I thought of this, and there are also some government jobs (some parks positions, maybe others) that run 9 or 10 months of the year.

    3. WellRed*

      You might be better of posing this question in a hiking forum and see what others have done?

    4. No Tribble At All*

      A family friend just retired who worked for the federal government for years. He hiked the Appalachian trail over about 6-7 years, doing ~10 days at a time. I know he accrued more vacation time as his seniority increased, but he did the trail piecewise. I know that won’t have the same kind of “disconnect from society” that doing the hike all at once would do. (He’s now retired to the Rockies and is going to do the Pacific Crest trail).

    5. Alexis Rosay*

      I don’t know if you personally would consider it a meaningful career or not, but I just met someone who makes a living as a commercial fisherman a few months a year, while pursuing his hobbies the rest of the time (while living abroad in low-cost countries to make his money stretch further).

    6. PollyQ*

      Becoming a freelance consultant, and only taking contracts that have a set end-date, seems like it would let you schedule in large chunks of time for hiking trips. Of course, not every kind of work lends itself to that setup, and you do need to be good enough at what you do to be able to charge enough to afford your lifestyle.

    7. retired*

      I retired early to hike. Certainly have less money in retirement. And now I have unexpected physical issues that prevent me from hiking much. Totally worth it. No one ever said on their deathbed they wished they’d spent more time at work.

  108. Calamity Kate*

    I’m in a difficult situation where I need to choose which direction to take my career path. I currently work for a nonprofit doing two jobs: one in direct services and one in an administrative role that serves the whole agency. I’ve been told by our COO that I need to pick one or the other; for whatever reason (she couldn’t give me a specific answer when I asked), she’s not happy about me doing both at the same time. As someone whose educational background is in public health, I’ll always have a place in my heart for providing direct services to the community. However, those skills don’t have as much room for growth or salary potential as I could have if I kept up with the administrative angle. To top it all off, I’ve been considering leaving the organization but I worry that my lack of experience will hold me back in my job search– this is my first professional job and I’ve been here for less than two years. I’m thinking about sticking with the administrative position, developing more transferrable skills and building confidence as a leader, and hanging around for a while longer so I can get more experience. It will be tough to give up the classes I teach and the community outreach aspect, but I think this path has greater potential for my future career. I just can’t shake the feeling that this feels like an ultimatum and I’m doing myself a disservice by staying at an agency that just wants to move me around like a chess piece whenever it suits them. Any advice for how to navigate this? I’m meeting with the COO again on Monday to give her my decision.

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      I’ve thought about this a lot lately for my own situation, and come to the conclusion that I am a chess piece at work. If my boss wants to put me in another spot, that’s his call and he has reasons I may not know. My options are to stay at the organization, or to leave (see my question today about dealing with a recruiter, lol), but as long as I’m there, I will do a good job in the tasks I’m assigned. At least you’re getting a real choice, about service provision versus administrative work. I would take the slot that pays more and has better hours for your situation. If that’s admin, maybe ask if you can keep your hand in services by doing one class a session (or whatever, I don’t really understand the work you’re doing), but live with the answer if it’s no.

      1. Anonagoose*

        “come to the conclusion that I am a chess piece at work.”

        I guess the question is that is that what work is, or is that this workplace? Having been a chess piece at varying workplaces for 20 years and no leadership role in sight, I’m tired of it.

        I really didn’t mind at first, but after having some really transformative outside-of-work, unpaid experiences, I realized what I was missing. Just the respect that my voice matters made a big difference.

        The other thing is being chess piece is habit-forming and had spilled over to other areas of my life. Once I felt I had some power outside of work, then *that* spilled over to me wanting to have a bit of autonomy at work. At least that’s way it happened for me. It’s like unplugging from the Matrix sometimes! But then trying to plug back in. Or pretending you’re plugged back in. I’m eventually going to give myself away!

  109. KoiFeeder*

    Have been informed by one of my classmates that problem teacher (the one that doesn’t believe in online learning, was constantly calling me pet names, and would not stop using the term “drink the koolaid” for anything and everything) apparently failed an assignment from the beginning of the semester… that was never discussed or graded until today. Very, very glad I made that google doc when I realized we weren’t going to get any feedback on our work until the end of the semester, if ever. Going to be exciting to see what comes up now that we can’t resubmit assignments for partial credit because the semester is over.

    It feels like middle school all over again. I wouldn’t be paying grad school rates if that’s what I wanted to deal with.

  110. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

    Has anyone taught classes for LinkedIn Learning?

    I’ve got a full time job as a software developer, so this would be in addition to that job, not a replacement. I’m trying to decide if the advantages would be enough to balance out the disadvantages.

    The biggest advantage to me would be raising my profile in the software development community. I already speak at technical conferences, and train junior developers at my own company. I have a potential opportunity to be nominated as a Microsoft MVP, and this seems like the sort of thing that would strengthen that nomination.

    On the flip side, I have no experience with curriculum development, and a conference talk (even a virtual one) is not the same as an online class. But I anticipate that this would be a significant time commitment, in addition to my existing work and home responsibilities (which on their own can leave me mentally exhausted).

    I would appreciate hearing about any experience other people have had with this from the instructor’s perspective so I can have some more data to base my decision on.

  111. What’s in a Name?*

    How do you deal with a condescending coworker? I work with Mary, who essentially comes across as a know-it-all. She is quick to point out what I have done wrong or blames me for even a minuscule flaw in a project. She did it again to me today when she blamed me for something we worked on together: “You did x wrong.” I turned to her and said, “I hear what you’re saying but also you need to know it’s on both of us.” Her answer was “true” and nothing more. She doesn’t go running to the boss about it, but it’s getting really old really fast to hear Mary constantly nick picking the hell out of things.

    Was she right about this flaw you may ask? Yes. And it wasn’t the end of the world. She’s done it to others. But every time I have an interaction with her, she comes across as holier than thou, that she must know more than you or picks out what I have done wrong. But instead of coming up with a solution today to prevent it from happening again, it was “oh you did this wrong” and done. I avoid as much interaction with her as possible because her condescending ways grate my nerves. Does anyone have any coping mechanisms for this sort thing? How can I grow thicker skin?

    1. ferrina*

      I treat it as a game. To semi-quote Eleanor Roosevelt, “she can’t make you feel inferior without your consent”. So don’t give her the satisfaction. Be professional and even cheerful! Happily focus on a solution and how great it will be to solve this!

      This is based on an old trick I learned from a cheerleader friend- certain people get extremely annoyed when you are cheerful, and they will get even more annoyed when they learn _nothing they do can make that cheerfulness go away_. My friend used to get extra cheerful when they were having a bad day, because they liked to see other grumpy people get annoyed with how cheerful they were.

      This person is being genuinely rude and annoying, but being cheerful back will be more annoying for this person than snapping at them. Good luck!

  112. Yip Yip*

    Any freelancers/contractors/etc here that have to pay for their own insurance? I have a role I want to take on but it’s hard thinking about paying for my own health insurance. I’m in Colorado so the options are not horrible. It seems like all the freelancers or entrepreneurs I personally know are married, so they’re able to be on their spouse’s insurance. I’m able to do that as a domestic partner with my partner, but it’s tricky because I’d have to go on it at their next open enrollment (leaving a few months without insurance.) As someone with a chronic condition, I do need health insurance. I feel like the US makes it so hard to have your own business or be a freelancer :/

    1. Ya Girl*

      Are you sure you’d have to wait until their next enrollment period? Usually a job change counts as a qualifying life event that lets you enroll outside of the usual enrollment period.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Yes; if you’re employed right now (as opposed to freelancing/contracting), leaving that job should be an event that qualifies your partner to add you to their insurance.

    2. Alice Quinn*

      I’m not currently a freelancer but I was for about 12 years. I did pay for my own insurance for several years. It was definitely a big expense, so make sure you’re accounting for it when you set your rates.

    3. ThatGirl*

      A job change is a qualifying life event. There’s also open enrollment for ACA insurance right now, if that’s a good temporary fix – until August 15.

    4. Filosofickle*

      I am an independent consultant and have paid for my own insurance for…18 years now. It’s crazy high but I want decent insurance and I don’t want a job so…it’s just part of doing business.

    5. ronda*

      oboma care has some extra provisions about your income level this year and next that might make it more affordable than other options. (due to the latest covid bill). Also if your were let go, and COBRA is offered, there are provisions where the govt will pay for that.
      Some people also wait the number of days allowed to sign up for COBRA and only do if they have high medical expenses. This might work for you if you get on your partners insurance before or shortly after the COBRA deadlines.

      put your numbers in on the Obamacare website and see what it looks like and what plans are available in your area.

      Also as a “self employed” person you can include your healthcare expenses in your federal taxes calculations to reduce your taxes. (& also other expenses of your business). Look at schedule C on the irs . gov for some info about it.

  114. Anonny*

    I have a question about notice periods. I have interviewed for a new position and found out this morning that the HR Director wants to meet with me to “go over the offer” on Monday, the 10th. I know from previous discussions that the anticipated start date is Mon., June 7th, though I am sure that is flexible. However, my husband and I are planning a vacation that is coming up soon, leaving on Saturday, the 22nd. If I am presented with an offer on Mon., I have two options:

    – Give notice on Tues., the 11th, with a final date of Friday, the 21st. This lets me give almost two weeks’ notice, minus one day.

    – Work for another two weeks, go on vacation as planned, and then give notice when I return, so I can work a full two weeks from that point. That assumes I am able to negoiate a later start date, which I think will be possible.

    I guess I am strongly leaning towards option 1, because it lets me resign, go on vacation, and then start the new position when I return all relaxed and refreshed, but I don’t know how bad it will look to not give a full two weeks’ notice. (And I realize this is contingent on my being able to accept the offer immediately, but based on previous discussions with them, I think this will be the case.)

    1. ecnaseener*

      I think the two-weeks-minus-one-day period is just fine, as long as you’re not going to be unduly rushed to decide on the offer. You can apologize for the timing, but presumably your boss knows about the scheduled vacation time and wouldn’t expect you to work an extra day after you get back from vacation.
      (Caveat: check your employee handbook for any policies about what happens if you give short notice)

    2. PollyQ*

      Another option would be to give notice the 11th and offer your current employer the option of your working a final Monday after you get back from vacation. They’ll almost certainly wave it off, but you’ll still get “credit” for having given 2 weeks notice.

    3. Me*

      At my company, you cannot use paid leave during your notice period. Might look to see if there’s a provision like that that might affect you.

  115. House Tyrell*

    The last month of my life has been a rollercoaster. At the end of March I accepted a brand new job that was perfect! I had been under and unemployed throughout the whole pandemic. I even got the salary increase I negotiated. My partner had also accepted a new job and we were going to move across the country together. Four days after I accepted was our move out day (my offer really was perfect timing) and we were going to stay with his mom for about a month or two so we’d have time to find an apartment + save on rent! She lived closer to the new city than we did too so it was going to be perfect. Then on move out day my long term partner that I lived with had a psychotic episode and I didn’t see him for a month. He spent two weeks at an inpatient psychiatric facility and then was released. I started couch surfing with friends and family in the area while we waited for information. I was having about 5 anxiety attacks a day and my mental health was deteriorating rapidly. He was finally released and immediately flew to his mom’s house across the country and no one told me. His family who I have always been close to froze me out and I got one brief call from him where he sounded like a zombie and told me he couldn’t have any life changes right now. I had expected that so I was unfazed and reminded him I was just concerned for him and loved him. We figured I could move out and then he would join me in a few months or maybe even a year and we could make long distance work until then.

    After two weeks of him being released and no one telling me anything, he and I had a phone call. It was the day before I started my new job (which I started this Monday!) I’ve been couch surfing and stressed and living out of my car. And at the end of an hour of normal conversation he told me he was breaking up with me, had withdrawn from his new job (meaning no moving allowance anymore), and never wanted to leave his hometown. So now I’m single, my life expenses have increased astronomically (I will have no savings at the end of this move alone now and it’s to a very expensive city), and I’ve been diagnosed with PTSD from the whole experience. The last time I’ll have ever seen the man I’ve lived with and seen every day for the last year was over a month ago when he was in full psychosis, which was terrifying.

    On the bright side, I can afford to live alone in a small studio because of my salary negotiation, my boss and coworkers are all amazing, and I really love my new job. I’ll be moving alone in three weeks but it’s to my favorite city and I have friends there to lean on. My friends from home are all making plans to come visit me throughout the rest of the year too. My birthday is in less than two weeks and I’ll be turning 25! My boss referred me to the EAP and my benefits went into effect immediately so I can afford to see a therapist more consistently. After so much instability over the last year and last month especially I am looking forward to having consistency in my work life and setting up my own space so I can start healing.

    1. Kathenus*

      That all sounds so hard, but I also think that you are on the cusp of a new life with your own happiness and well-being at the center. Good luck, you deserve to be the priority.

    2. My Brain Is Exploding*

      I am in awe of your ability to see “the bright side.” Despite going through this terrible time, you’ll be ok. Hugs from an internet stranger if you can use them.

    3. ChiliChileChilly*

      I am rooting for you & am happy you have a support system to lean on in your new city!

    4. New Senior Mgr*

      Sending internet hugs your way. A whole new world is upon you at the young age of 25! So exciting and excited for you!

  116. ecnaseener*

    This is mostly a rhetorical question / vent, but…why don’t some people realize that being adversarial will get them worse results, not better? If you’re nice to me I will move heaven and earth to get you what you need quickly. If you yell at me for doing my job, I’m going to dread interacting with you and procrastinate working on your projects in favor of other projects that don’t make me anxious to think about.

    Just… be polite. Be neutral if you’re not happy. The humans on the other end can do so much more with a simple statement of your needs than with a tantrum.

    End rant.

    1. ATX*

      Ohhhh I get this 100% and legit call those people out or give them some serious sass. They are no longer rude to me.

      1. ecnaseener*

        Alas, one of my office’s constant priorities is to improve our reputation (we’re a compliance office so it’s an uphill battle not to be seen as an obstacle) so I don’t get to do that. The best I can do is thank them sweetly for their feedback and try to shame them into realizing that they’re not actually giving useful feedback

    2. NeonDreams*

      Same here with talking to customers. I know we’re supposed to treat everyone the same. but I’m lot more inclined to help someone who is polite rather than screaming at me over the phone.

    3. No Tribble At All*

      I agree, but sometimes you’re so worked up or frustrated you’re going to get emotional. I ended up crying on the phone to the apartment manager because I was locked out.

      For a regular office interaction… yeah, be nice!

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        When I was in customer service, tears got sympathy.

        But most people who yell are just rude. Their problem is usually not that bad. And really, it takes just as much time to be polite as to be rude (less, a lot of the time). And you get better results.

      2. ecnaseener*

        Absolutely, I doubt anyone could blame you for having emotions sometimes!
        I’m talking about people who make a premeditated decision to call and yell at you (or to phrase an email rudely, or to complain about your office’s existence, etc), who genuinely think that’s the way to get results.

        1. NeonDreams*

          Those are the worst ones. “You guys don’t know how to do your job/are useless/are lazy” etc. And wind up being a complete hole in the wall just because they can. (trying to euphemize a little here). I was on a conference call with my customer and another entity the other day. The customer was rude to the other entity’s rep because he had a thick foreign accent. mentally I’m thinking, dude, that’s uncalled for.

    5. Littorally*

      Hell yeah.

      I can’t decide if I’m slightly mollified by the people who will follow up a rant with “But I’m not angry at you, of course, just your company” or if they actually tick me off more. Like, I guess it’s good they’re drawing the distinction at least, but also, if you know that I’m just trying to do my job here and not responsible for your situation, why the hell are you taking it out on me?

      1. ecnaseener*

        Yeah that feels worse. Like they know you’re not the one who can change anything but they’re gonna be rude to you because maybe if they upset you enough you’ll escalate the problem >:[

      2. NeonDreams*

        You just nailed my daily struggle in one paragraph. It gets exhausting having to do that emotional labor all the time. It adds up after almost 6 years. (almost 7 if you count my contract in the same place). Hence why I’m interviewing.

    6. Undine*

      I suspect that there are people who believe that to get what you want, you have to yell at people, and it becomes a self-fufilling prophecy. Then there are people who really are just jerks.

      And then sometimes your mother has had a life-changing accident and you’re trying to juggle the hospital and her finances and your computer just did something weird and you got lost on the menu so you had to hold for 15 minutes 3 times and then the answer is call another line and — I admit I’ve been pretty sh*tty under those circumstances. Not to mention, if you are under any stress at all, an automated voice answering system is going to make it much much worse. If you are sobbing so hard you can hardly talk, they will say “sorry I can’t understand” — and hang up. Or you’re on edge and hitting the wrong buttons or you don’t have the account number, or you’re not sure if it’s better to enter her SSN or your own. Do that for three nightmarish weeks straight and you are ready to scream at the first human who wants another piece of paper.

  117. NotaFanofDriving*

    So this was sparked by the “I’m being pressured to chauffeur” letter. I wonder if the advice written there would still apply, or if there is another way to word it, in situations where you have to chauffeur actual clients, not colleagues.

    I’m in a sort of similar situation where I sometimes am asked to chauffeur my clients to and from certain destinations (usually the airport and other branches of the company). As far as I recall, this portion of the job description was never stated in any of the job advertisements nor was brought up during the interviews. However, I do recall that “having a driver’s license is a must” was mentioned in passing in the first interview, but I assumed that meant I needed to have a reliable form of transportation (i.e. a car) to get to work. Anyway, after about two weeks of starting the job, it soon became clear that I would have to provide transportation to my clients, but I won’t get paid extra for it. Actually, scratch that. I will get mile reimbursements but it’s definitely not enough to cover the additional costs of insurance (which I assume I’ll need). Similarly to the letter writer, I have multitude of reasons why I am very uncomfortable in this added job duty — (to quote the original letter writer) “the slight wear and tear to my car, the idea of getting into an accident with [my clients] in the car, etc. … If I got into a wreck, without company insurance, I would be solely responsible for [my client’s] medical bills, despite it being essentially on company time and as a company demanded activity.” If I had known I would be driving around clients, I would’ve really reconsidered the job offer. I mean, I don’t think I am a horrible driver, but I would rather not have the added stress of driving people around. I’ve already asked for extra pay or at least to cover the additional insurance cost since this isn’t really what I agreed to but was told that, by reimbursing the mileage, the company is not obligated to compensate for more. This is a small family-run company with fewer than 50 employees so I’m not sure if any corporate laws would similarly apply to as a larger company.

    The job itself is actually fine, and actually in my field of interest so the experience would be helpful in the future. But when I took the job offer, I wasn’t expecting to drive more than a usual daily commute, and I’m hesitant to simply up and quit without another job prospective in this unstable times. While I have yet to actually start driving clients around, it will be a definite (and frequent) task as things start opening up in my city. In this situation, can I still refuse since I did not agree to it, or at least it was not brought up when the job was offered? Or is this grounds for insubordination and I would need to just suck it up?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Well, I agree that they handled this very badly, and should have made it clear that you’d be expected to drive people around in your own vehicle. What if you didn’t have an appropriate vehicle, or a vehicle at all? (Demanding a license isn’t the same as demanding a vehicle, and they should know that – obviously they don’t.) Yes, you could refuse, just as you can refuse any job duty. And your employer can choose to fire you over it.

      Have you talked to your insurance agent yet? Do you know how much the additional coverage will cost?

      1. mediamaven*

        I think it’s crappy that you have to do it but my main issue would be keeping my car clean all the time. That said, mileage is set at a rate that covers wear and tear and gas and all that. It can be a pretty penny if you have to drive far! But why do you assume you have to get more insurance? Is it just in case you get in an accident? How often do you think you’ll be doing this?

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          I can’t speak for NotaFan, but my insurance doesn’t provide coverage if I’m using my vehicle for work. I can use it to get to/from work, and to get to alternate work sites (i.e., if I have a meeting an hour away from the office, or if drive to the airport because I’m traveling for work), but if I’m actually using the car for work (Uber, delivery, or chauferring clients around) I would need an additional policy.

          1. Malarkey01*

            I would definitely talk directly with an agent. My insurance says if I use it for commercial work (and like Rustys example it’s uber, delivery, or PAID chauffeuring examples) I need a separate commercial license. However if I use it during work as normal transportation (including something like driving a friend or coworker to the airport) it’s not commercial use.
            The difference for mine is that the client isn’t paying for a chauffeur service. Just like picking up my coworker and carpooling to work is fine, picking up an Uber fair on my way into the city would not.
            It’s worth checking into before you get the extra coverage.

            Like anything in an at will state, you can decide whether or not you’re willing to do it but your employer can definitely make it a condition of continued employment.

        2. NotaFanofDriving*

          Pretty much what Rusty said. Since I’ll be driving for clients, it will considered “for commercial use” and will be an additional $50 policy cost to my already expensive auto insurance.

          I based my info from here: https://www.ericnisall.com/personal-car-business/

          How often will I do this? Well, it will depend on the month. I was told some months I’ll only have to do maybe 3-4 rides, and 10+ for busier months.

        3. NotaFanofDriving*

          Pretty much what Rusty said. Since it will be considered “for commercial use”, it will be an extra $50 policy cost to my already expensive auto insurance and I don’t think the mileage reimbursement perk will not be enough to cover it. So if, god forbid, I get into an accident, it’s possible that my insurance claim will be denied if I don’t have that added policy. How often will I use it? I was informed that I could potentially be doing 10+ rides.

      2. NotaFanofDriving*

        Thank you. Yeah, I realize that I can not do and get fired. It looks like I’ll have to suck it up so that’s just unfortunate.

        I have checked my current auto insurance policy and it looks like it’ll be an extra $50 per month, which is an extra cost that I am not expecting and something that the mileage reimbursement perk will not fully cover.

        1. WellRed*

          Is there a reason not to bring that extra expense up to your boss? To be clear, the company is in the wrong here, but they have the upper hand.

          1. NotaFanofDriving*

            I’ve actually brought it up to my boss when I was first told about this new (untold) job duty. My boss said they won’t, never had to, cover extra expense.

            But aside from the extra expense, I’m concerned of the potential litigation from clients if, a huge IF, I get into an accident and my client gets injured or something. Of course, I will practice defensive driving but I won’t be able to control everything.

            1. WellRed*

              The client would most likely sue your company. But. I don’t think you’re doing yourself any favors by thinking of all the unlikely catastrophes that might happen.

    2. pancakes*

      It sounds like you need to have good, close look at your insurance policy. It won’t do to make assumptions about the cost or about what you would and wouldn’t be liable for – you need to verify what is and isn’t covered, and precisely what additional coverage will cost if you’ll need it.

      1. NotaFanofDriving*

        Thank you. I have checked my current auto insurance policy and it looks like it’ll be an extra $50 per month, which is an extra cost that I am not expecting and something that the mileage reimbursement perk will not fully cover.

    3. Sleepless*

      That’s awful! The drive to (and especially back from) my city’s airport is probably my least favorite drive on earth. I would honestly have to change jobs. I’m sorry you’re in this position.

      1. NotaFanofDriving*

        Thank you. Yeah, I think I might have to suck it up for a while until I at least manage to find another job. But I only just got this job earlier this year after months of job searching so I don’t know how much longer it’ll take to find another one. :(

    4. Ranon*

      Your employer should have automotive coverage for employees using their vehicles for work during work hours. Mine does (we often have to drive to job sites and I’ve seen the limits when we have to provide them on proposals). You should not have to pay for insurance for this.

      1. NotaFanofDriving*

        Thank you. Would that be the case even if it is a small company (less than 50 employees)? I was informed that because they’re a small company they don’t really have to provide certain coverages for employees.

    5. The teapots are on fire*

      I’m not qualified to offer a legal opinion on this, but it would be worth finding out who is actually legally liable if you get in an accident while driving on official business for your employer. It may or may not be you.

  118. Hey Nonnie*

    So I am in the ever-so-fun position where I have been informed that my job is at risk because I need to “do more,” but inquiries about what “more” I need to do are hand-waved or sidestepped by management. One suggestion by a friendly coworker was to get on the radar of senior leadership (above my boss, possibly above my grand-boss, i.e. they make the decisions but have no involvement in the work I do) by asking partners from other departments, who my work product is directly for, to send praise for me/my work up my reporting line. I think it’s a GOOD idea, I often hear praise and thanks from them directly. But I have no idea how to make the ask without sounding like some sort of sad sack, or coming off as manipulative? Like “I may lose my job, can you tell senior leadership that my work is actually valuable/helpful to you?” may be literally true, but it also sounds pathetic and I don’t know that that would get me the response I’m looking for. I am valued by the people I work directly with, it’s just that senior leadership is too distant from that to know it.

    Any ideas for scripts?

    (And yes, I am also dusting off my resume, but given pandemic times I have my concerns about whether I could find something else in time. )

    1. ferrina*

      Definitely prep that resume. You may not be able to do anything. If they are telling you to “do more” but don’t have goals and metrics and work for you to do….that is a very bad sign.

      How this SHOULD work: Someone says “What does Hey Nonnie even do?” and your boss/grandboss says “Nonnie is essential! How else would all the widgets get made? And we need those widgets if we want to be in the whatsit business!” But if your boss/grandboss isn’t already advocating for you, your options are limited.

      As for sending praise up the line- you can and should be doing that. If you get an email, you can forward it to your boss (or grandboss, if appropriate) with a note saying “The Bubbles project is all wrapped up and the client is happy!” Or if it was verbal, you can do that themselves. It’s a good thing to do even if your job isn’t in jeopardy. But don’t bank on the praise saving your job. It sounds like they aren’t concerned with the work quality, they are wondering if the role is even needed. And that’s a strategic decision that your grandboss should be advocating for (if they wanted to).

      I’m sorry, I wish I had a happier take on this. Good luck!

    2. PollyQ*

      Yeah, I agree with ferrina — the “more” you need to be doing is “job-hunt more.”

    3. ronda*

      you could tell the other partners who you get thanks something like:

      Boss has told me I need to do more, but is unable to tell me what specifically what that means.
      I wanted to check and make sure that you are satisfied with the work I am producing to support you and if not what is lacking and I will work to improve that.

      & if they say everything is great. Thank them and say you are worried about how to address this vague feedback and you would appreciate if they let you know if anything does come up.
      If they bring up something…. address it.

      It doesn’t solve your bad manager problem, but it might give you info on something you could be doing. And it might prompt them to think they do need to say if they are impressed with your work.

    4. Dr. Anonymous*

      I would also look at all the things you are doing, make a comprehensive list, and sit down with your boss to show the things you’re doing and say, “Let’s go through this list together and see where I could improve.” Look over the list yourself and see if any ideas come up, like going to Team A who liked your work on the Doodlewaffer project and seeing if they need more Doodles. This puts you in an active problem-solving role and also puts in frond of your boss all the things you are already doing, because if they think you need to so more but don’t know what’s wrong, there’s a good chance they don’t even really know what you’re doing.

    5. Mina The Company Prom Queen*

      Awwww, I’m sorry you’re going through that. That really sucks when your boss tells you that you need to do more but won’t be specific about what they want you to do. But, yes, I agree with other commenters that this is a prompt to seriously look for another job. In the meantime, do your best at your current job, kill them with kindness, and try to stay as long as you need to, until you get something else.

  119. Casey*

    I interviewed for a super cool job on Wednesday, and I think I did really well!

    The interview was conducted over zoom, and although it was with Person A, an administrative assistant, Person B, emailed me to set it up. At no point did I ever see Person A’s email address.

    Is it okay to email a thank you note to Person B and ask them to forward it to Person A? Or is there a better way I’m missing?

    1. ferrina*

      Are you me? I ran in to this this week too!

      I don’t know if I did the right thing, but I emailed Person B to gush about the interview. I told them how much I loved talking to Person A [details about why] and how what I learned in the interview made me more excited about the position [details about why]. Then I said “I wasn’t able to get Person A’s email- would you be pass along my thanks?”

      I hope that was right!!!

      1. I'm just here for the cats*

        That’s what I did. I only had one person’s email, but it was a panel interview. I expressed my gratitude for the interview, how it was nice to see the office, meet people etc. Then I asked the manager to forward my gratitude to the others.

        I must have done something right because I got the job, and may be stepping up in my position.

      2. ferrina*

        Update: I just heard that I’m the top candidate and an offer is coming (pending reference checks). It was less than a one day after my interview, so I don’t even know if they had time to care about a thank you email :)

  120. Llama face!*

    Job application question: If there are very few jobs listed as remote work available in my area, but some of the positions listed are ones that could likely be done as remote work based on the job descriptions, would it be a waste of the employer’s time for me to apply to those jobs knowing I’d only be interested if they offered it remotely? If it makes a difference, where I live even the actual remote jobs are usually not advertised obviously as such (it’s a single line at the bottom of the job description once you click through).

    1. I'm just here for the cats*

      You could apply, it doesn’t hurt to apply. And if you get a phone interview that would be a great time to ask if the job can be remote or partially remote, or what their policy is for remote.

      Keep in mind, there probably is a reason why they don’t advertise it to be remote. Maybe they want you to work in the office for a certain amount of time before they can offer remote. Or there could be aspects of the job that cannot be done remotely but it’s hard to convey that in a job description.

      1. Llama face!*

        Yeah, I’m strictly needing remote work right now so starting in-office wouldn’t be an option for me. But I was worried that from the employer’s side they’d think I was, I dunno, operating in bad faith or something since I’d be applying for jobs that I wouldn’t be interested in if they are actually just regular in-person positions.

        1. Kathenus*

          Where you’re more likely to run the risk of being considered in bad faith is if you go through the whole interview process and don’t mention it until you get an offer. But I agree with I’m just here for the cats that applying and mentioning it in the first interview seems fine.

          1. Llama face!*

            Thanks Kathenus! Glad to see that both you and I’m just here for the cats would consider this an okay thing to do. I may be overthinking things since it has been a long time since I last job hunted and never with these particular restrictions.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      Personally, I doubt they’d be open to remote and not mention it. It’s not wrong to ask, but I expect you’ll get a lot of answers that won’t work for you, which could be a waste of your time. Have you tried focusing your job search on remote job boards, such as weworkremotely.com, flexjobs.com, and jobspresso.com?

      1. Llama face!*

        I’m not in the U.S. and when I’ve looked there don’t seem to be a lot of jobs in my field on those boards that are open to Canadians. Unfortunately I haven’t found an equivalent site that is Canada-based.

        My need for remote work at this point is due to our current pandemic situation so I’d be open to it being temporary and moving back to in office (partly or fully) once the state of emergency is lifted.

    3. ecnaseener*

      My office has been fully remote since March 2020. Our job postings make no mention of being remote. So yeah I wouldn’t assume anything.

      1. Llama face!*

        I was trying to figure out a non-awkward way of fitting that into my cover letter but just drew a blank. It just seemed like it didn’t fit in the middle of a “this is why I’d be an awesome employee” spiel. Ugh, my least favourite part of job hunting is writing these things and I’m about a decade rusty since my last change of employment which doesn’t help. It’s late now so maybe after I sleep on it some better wording will come to me.

  121. StellaBella*

    Hi. A question for how one would handle this situation.

    I was on a goodbye call for our former director, when out of the blue one of the people on the call and director started to reminisce, when director flippantly said, “watching the planes crash on 9/11 and not having to worry about it was a relief”- I lost a friend that day in the Towers and felt gut punched. I excused myself. How angry I was …was pretty angry. Should I reach out to the old man director and ask wtf or not?

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      How horrible for you! Or, really, anyone who remembers that day & what it was like. And has a heart. I think if it were me at the very least I’d mention it to my manager.

      I’m sorry this happened to you.

      1. StellaBella*

        Thanks yeah, was not good. I just do not know if it matters as he is gone now.

    2. PollyQ*

      First, yes that was a horrible, horrible thing to say, and illogical to boot — how could he be sure at the time that he didn’t know a single soul on the airplanes, in the towers, or at the Pentagon? But no, given that he’s now the former director, and that you’ll probably never have to interact with him again, I wouldn’t bother reaching out to him.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      It’s really a terrible and insensitive thing to say.
      That said, is this really something worthwhile taking up with said director?

      I mean, you could approach them and say something like: “I found your rather flippant comment about 9/11 was upsetting because I actually did lose someone in the 9/11 attacks and I still find it upsetting years later.”
      Or, you could let it go and figure other people also thought director said something jerky and insensitive, because I guarantee you’re not the only one who thought so.

    4. tangerineRose*

      I don’t understand why he didn’t have to worry about it. Because he didn’t know anyone in the towers? I didn’t know anyone who was killed by the planes, and I live on the west coast, and I was depressed and angry about it for a long time. I still feel like that when I think about it.

    5. KoiFeeder*

      Are you sure your director isn’t the intern from that one letter who made a 9/11 joke at a business meeting?

  122. The Italian Bunny*

    Hiya!! I’m pitching in to ask for some guidance on how to navigate a thing at work:
    I’m one month in a new temp assignement that’s gonna last until january, and that may (hopefully) lead to something permanent… thing is, my entire office is 50yr+. Literally i’m the youngest there (at 37!) and i look very much younger than i am (think about being carded for cigarettes and drinks level of looking young.) and….even tho my colleagues are super kind they all tend to baby me as if i’m a new grad and…i don’t know how to convey the message that i am, indeed, not a new grad at all.
    I want to create a good working relationship with them, as i hope i will stay past the temp assignment, but i really don’t know how to deal with it as it’s the first time that the age gap is so big. Plus, they’re all lifers of the company who have worked there 15+yrs and well…it’s hard.
    So please…tips? trick?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      37 to 50 is not really that big a gap. You’ve been in the workforce for 15 years, you’re not a rookie anymore. Try to get it out of your head, and let your work speak for itself.

      If it’s a matter of small talk and stages of life (they are all having grandkids, you’re single and childless), then you don’t need to compete with their stories – they probably just want an appreciative audience.

      1. I'm just here for the cats*

        This isn’t a head issue for the LW. This is a coworker issue. The problem is that she doesn’t look 37 she looks more like 21 since she gets carded so much. And she says that they baby her like a new grad. Thats a problem. I’ve had that in my personal life before, and some in my professional life. It sucks.

        1. The Italian Bunny*

          Yes, indeed. The problem isn’t small talk or anything.
          I get that we’re on different pages and. different stages. I’d just like if they’d stop trying to treat me as if i’ve never been in an office before x°D

    2. I'm just here for the cats*

      Ohh I feel for you. I’m almost 34 and I look way younger than I am. In fact I’ve had people ask me “what are you, like 12” (This after just signing a legal document!! What 12 year old is a guardian of another person???)

      I don’t have any suggestions for you. Except if it’s really bad do what alison sometimes suggests. “what an odd thing to say when I’ve worked with X for 10 years” or something like that.

      Following for advise too!

    3. PollyQ*

      One thing that might help would be to be on the lookout for ways you can drop historical or pop culture events into chats, e.g., “Man, remember when everyone was so worried about Y2K? I was in HS then, and my best friend’s parents turned the basement into a post-apocalyptic shelter!” or “Wow, my niece is turning 10 next week, where does the time go?” Eventually, your colleagues will figure out you’re older than you look, or may even ask your age straight out.

      1. The Italian Bunny*

        AWWW this sounds super! i’m gonna surely add this to the chatter! <3 let's see if this gets through them xD btw lol, my oldest niece really IS 10yo ahahhahha x°D and well, my bffs in hs had really planned an out way for all of us in case the millennium bug ended the society ahahahha

    4. Wordybird*

      I worked in a similar age-gap office where I was the youngest by a decade (or two), and while they didn’t baby me, it was awkward to be the only one with young children when they all had college or adult children (and all that having young children entails e.g. doctor’s appointments, childcare schedules, etc.) and sometimes difficult to interact with them as peers (my bosses were just 7 or 8 years younger than my parents).

      I found that having an expertise in an area they didn’t was helpful to “prove” I was an adult, and I became the unofficial IT help person for the organization after they noticed I knew how to reset the router (yes, really), how to make someone an admin in the group’s Facebook group (yes, really), and how to get a photo from my personal cell phone to my work computer (yes, really). I made sure to act the same way towards them that I wanted them to act towards me when I was in a similar situation and trying to learn something that was obvious to the rest of them who had worked in that field for years and years.

      I think (hope) that the longer you are there and the better they get to know you, the more they will recognize your actual age and experience and not treat you like a child.

    5. OtterB*

      Can you just have a breezy response ready for the times when they baby you?

      Them: Bunny, remember you need to do x and y before you do z

      You: Oh, I’ve got that. I need you to let me know things that are company-specific, but I have 10 years of experience with (task)

    6. Pocket Mouse*

      I mean this kindly… to be honest, I was surprised to read your age because by the time I got there I already had the impression you were under 25. At that point, I had to go on was your user name and a few sentences of your writing style. Your other comments on this thread similarly give me a very young vibe, both from the writing style itself and in how the writing style of your responses diverge significantly from the styles of the people you’re responding to.

      I’m not saying you *should* change your communication style or anything about how you present yourself, and it may well be how you’re presenting yourself here is different from in a professional context. Just wanted to point out that if it’s important to you to give the impression of being closer to your actual age, there may be some things you have the ability to change about how you present yourself, such as communication or clothing/accessory styles. Obviously there are also things you can’t change, which your coworkers should be able to recognize are just facts of life for some people.

      Regardless, using scripts suggested by others above can help. One time, when a coworker expressed surprise about something I had done in my life (“But you’re so young!”) I replied, “I’m 33–how old did you think I am?!” Sometimes the direct approach is effective!

    7. Hunnybee*

      Not sure what the dress code is at your office, but one of the things I’ve done in a similar situation was to amp up my wardrobe. I would wear a blazer with my cute work outfits (I was in a casual environment) or wear my glasses instead of contacts, for example. These subtle clues that regardless of our age or gender we are someone to be taken seriously, even if you’re on Zoom meetings. I have several go-to boards on Pinterest that have helped.

      Another thing — I noticed that a peer on my team kept saying really hipster comments like “COO, COO, COO” in response to things, and instead of coming across as confident and professional, she just seemed insecure and it undermined the serious work she was presenting. I’ve since paid a lot of attention to the language I’m using, and I’m actively trying to reduce the amount of “um” and “like” in my filler words although it is REALLY tough to do.

      I mean, I don’t think we need to wipe 0ur personalities to be perceived as professional, but — like you — I’ve been looking for ways I can signal that I am showing up and ready for the work I’m doing, and that I am capable and competent.

      …and when people start on about their kids or grandkids I just go to that special place in my mind where I am far away hiking in the forest with my dog or traveling post-COVID. : ) I don’t think they even notice my mind has left my body, as long as I have a smile on my face and nod from time to time.

  123. I'm just here for the cats*

    Does anyone have any suggestions on where I can learn more about how to use Microsoft Power Automate? I did find some Youtube videos but I wouldn’t mind taking an actual class type of thing. Preferably free or very low cost.

    1. Llama face!*

      If your library system or workplace lets you freely access Lynda.com that site seems to have at least one class on it. I’m not sure how much it costs for a membership if you don’t have a way to get free access.

      2. ThatGirl*

        Believe Lynda.com is now LinkedIn Learning, but many workplaces do have free subscriptions to that.

  124. Ruth*

    I found out this week a coworker who I don’t care for has cancer. Luckily it seems like it was caught early but she needs to have a surgery (skin cancer) and she’s also dealing with health issues for her two dogs. Of course I feel awful about what she’s going through, but then I get annoyed at some of the stuff she does (or doesn’t do). It’s not like she’s not able to do her tasks because she away at the doctor or away from her computer. It’s more like she’s at her computer and working but not putting in any effort to the bare minimum.

    I’m actually exhausted myself and I tried three times to type some examples but I can’t articulate it the way I want. It’s basically like we’ll all be online in chat, and she’ll need to tell our boss something (to keep him in the loop), but she’ll tell me instead (her and I are at the same level), and I’ll have to ask if she’s told our boss and it’s like pulling teeth to get an answer. It’s actually been this way since she started (about 6 months) so it’s not really new behavior.

    I’m trying to be patient because I can’t even imagine what she’s going through but I’m getting annoyed.

    1. I'm just here for the cats*

      I can understand that you are annoyed. But I hope that you can take a step back and take a breath. It might be that you are just overworked or tired yourself. But even if the cancer is early that takes such a heavy burden on a person. Maybe she is on some medication of some type that is making her forgetful, or tired easily. Just the stress alone can cause fatigue. And if she’s dealing with other problems in her life it probably is a lot for her.

      1. Ruth*

        Yeah this week was stressful and I do feel burned out. I’ll work on cutting her some slack.

    3. Pocket Mouse*

      She does sound distracted and like she’s having a hard time focusing. Are there minor adjustments you can make that will ease things for both of you? E.g. in the chat example, instead of asking her a question (that she then needs to respond to), maybe say “Thanks for telling me- sounds like you need to tell Boss too! If you’d like me to tell him for you, just let me know.”

      Look up choice architecture, some of the ideas there might be useful. In any case, best wishes for your coworker’s health and for your ability to cultivate grace and calm in the face of frustrations.

      1. Ruth*

        Due to the nature of the job I’m not sure if that’s possible. But I think some of my annoyances are stemming from some things my boss is doing and it’s a waterfall effect. I’ll chat with him next week.

  125. Am I a Bad Manager?*

    I think one of my best employees is thinking of leaving. I know he’s been unhappy with a number of things (not all of which are in my control), but I’ve been really struggling with how to manage some of the issues that I do have control over:
    – He regularly works 50-55 hour weeks (the rest of us work around 40) and is tired of working that much, but when I lay out strategies for him to offload some of his work to other team members, he will either come up with reasons why he can’t or it doesn’t make sense, or he’ll insist on supervising the staff member who takes over closely “to make sure everything is done correctly” which in turn creates MORE work for him. We’re all remote and I often don’t know this is happening until after the fact.
    – I have told him repeatedly that he is not expected to work that many hours, and if his workload is too much to accomplish during our working hours to please talk to me about it, but he doesn’t. He’ll come in on Monday and tell me he worked all weekend and I had no idea (sometimes it’s deadline-driven, but not always).
    – He is a senior member of the team and also a subject matter expert. He’s been training one of the junior members, but refuses to give any real responsibility to her. When we meet to talk about redistributing workload, he got very upset and thought his job was “being eliminated”…. which was not at all true.
    – He recently complained that I don’t work as many hours as he does, and that I’m not in the weeds with all of the day-to-day tasks the team performs, and has definitely implied that I should be working at least as much as he does. This is not the expectation of him, or me, and it’s out of sync with our company culture.

    I’m kind of at the end of my rope figuring out how to manage him, and I’m worried there is something I’m doing wrong. He’s really good at what he does and I’d like to keep him on the team, but I’m not sure how My plan is to talk to my boss about the situation next week but I like to come with solutions, and I feel like I’ve exhausted everything I can think of. Thoughts?

    1. Kathenus*

      I know you say he is one of your best employees, but also consider all that you’ve written about him not following your direction on work hours, not informing you of extra hours until after the fact, complaining about your work hours and ethic – maybe he’s not as good an employee as your original thought when you look at the totality of his performance.

      As to how to manage him – set clear expectations such as number of work hours (not soft language like ‘not expected to work that many hours’, but do not work more than 40 hours in a week without prior approval from me) and then hold him to it and if he doesn’t follow it or other clear directives then handle it as a performance issue. I’d suggest thinking about what is your goal, managing him or keeping him on the team, because depending on his reaction to being held accountable for his actions he may not stay (and to be honest you may not want him to in that case either). Good luck.

    3. Decidedly Me*

      To your username – I don’t think you’re a bad manager.

      You’ve been giving him options and support, but he’s not taking any of it. It’s really hard when people complain, but won’t accept the solutions that are presented to them. I agree with Kathenus that I would rethink your assessment of him as your best employee.

      Definitely set clear expectations with him, then enforce them. If he works 50 hours one week, ask him why he didn’t come to you about it first as discussed and find out what work “required” him to go over hours.

      For training someone, he’s doing the junior member a HUGE disservice to not give her any real responsibilities. I would make it clear that his role as a trainer is do those things and if he can’t, then you’ll have to put someone else in that position.

      If he’s upset that others don’t work as many hours as he does, reiterate that the expectation is that people finish their work within 40 hours a week and communicate when that’s not possible and that he’s not meeting that expectation. Many people think that working extra hours is always a good thing, but that’s just not the case. If there are occasions where it’s required/necessary, be sure to mention that too, though.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      What does he think he’s training someone for? Does he expect the junior person to wait in the wings until he retires, or does he not grasp that there is enough work to go around? It sounds like he clearly doesn’t want anyone to encroach on his turf. I’m impressed he’s even training someone, because people like him tend to hoard information and knowledge. As it is, it sounds like he’s hoarding projects or micromanaging when someone else does something. I’d hate to be the team members stuck under his de facto supervision (assuming you haven’t assigned him an official supervisory role).

      I assume he is salaried and this isn’t an overtime situation, but he’s still working unapproved extra hours when it isn’t necessary. I think you should be able to lay out for him that he is to identify some portion of work to give up in order to keep his hours at the company-supported 40 hours a week. If he is not willing to do so AND let the work be done entirely by other people without meddling, I don’t think this is someone that’s a good fit for your team, skills or no skills.

    5. BRR*

      you’re not a bad manager! You need to treat this like a performance issue, because that’s what it is.

    6. Claire*

      Instead of you suggesting strategies for offloading work which he rejects, you should ask him to be the one to come up with a plan that the two of you can then review together. There might be legitimate reasons why the strategies you’re suggesting don’t make sense for his daily workflow but there could be other things that he is willing to try that you’re just not thinking of.

    7. Taxachusetts*

      This is a very tough problem- someone that wants to be seen as valuable so badly that they actually diminish their value by acting this way! I have experienced this with a past team lead I was managing. Honestly it just got to a point where her finding a new job was the best thing.

      Another thing you can try is if you delegate an item from his plate to another team member, tell that team member to ignore any communication from him. do not let him take it back under his sphere of responsibility.

  126. rabbit rabbit*

    Tips for training someone to be a supervisor/manager? My direct report will be getting an assistant. They are very bright and capable but have never supervised/managed before. I’ve had to talk to them a time or two about being more proactive about asking for help, and the assistant will be remote so I won’t have eyes on the scene. Anything I can do to train them before we hire the new person would be beneficial.

    1. Taxachusetts*

      I manage three managers and mostly I try to be very mindful about telling them in detail how I do things. We talk about this a lot in regular check ins and also have a shared Teams page where I’ll write down notes about different topics (like hiring, performance reviews, running monitoring reports, etc). I also make sure we have a very open environment where they can ask me any questions, even very minor. They can run scenarios by me and practice what they will say with their team member. I also actively ask them about their team member.
      When they first became managers I had about a half day session where we talked about the basics of management- my philosophy and style, how I do various things, and planning for the future of the team. We also have a management skills course in my company that reviews broad topics like delegation and how to give feedback. We’ve also also a management team read various HBR articles on different subjects.

  127. Alex*

    The comment above about the employee who works too much really resonated with me…because I feel like I’m that employee. My performance review is coming up and I know that my boss is going to say something to me about delegating and asking others to cover my work, and share more in projects.

    The problem is that my coworkers are totally incompetent. The reason I end up taking over projects, and the reason I went five months without taking a day off, including weekends, Thanksgiving and Christmas, is because while my boss claims everyone will pitch in, they won’t. I gave my coworkers some of the work to do, and they just…didn’t do it. I gave them a deadline in November. No one did it. I extended the deadline to December. Nope. January? Nope. Finally I gave up because the work HAD TO BE DONE and I had to scramble to do it all myself. Then they complained that I was no longer accepting their work. And my boss gave none of them any consequences. Why? Because she herself didn’t do the part that she was supposed to do.

    A lot of my work is also higher level than what my colleagues are capable of. They can’t do any problem solving at all. I have to do all the troubleshooting, so I am constantly interrupted putting out everyone’s fires. I try to teach them how, and they “forget”. They think that I just magically know the answer to every obstacle that comes our way, but the truth is sometimes you have to look into stuff–if something is broken, you have to just do some problem solving to figure it out. But they just won’t engage with that process at all, and my boss really doesn’t expect them to.

    I don’t know how I’m going to respond to my boss complaining that I just “take over” and don’t take enough vacation or delegate enough. The truth is because I think my coworkers, including my boss, are just…lazy and/or stupid. I know that’s mean, but that is how they have demonstrated themselves to be. But I obviously can’t say that. What do I say?

    1. WellRed*

      Stop. Taking. Over. Let the project fail. let tasks go undone. take a vacation. You say your boss doesn’t expect things of your coworker. Are you sure he expects them of you?

      1. Alex*

        No, she doesn’t. But stopping means our product will be bad, it means our clients will be angry (and write to me angrily). It means more work for people outside my department who are already working as hard or harder than me. The consequences will magically not fall to my boss or my coworkers. And somehow when stuff gets missed (which it did when I had to scramble to do all the work), I get blamed. Yes, I got blamed for not thoroughly doing X and Y and finding all the errors.

        1. Kathenus*

          I get it and you obviously care about the quality of the work and your clients. But WellRed is right, you have to let there be consequences if you ever want anything to change. You can’t control anyone but yourself, meaning you can’t make them do the work or do it well. You can either control your reaction – meaning you decide that quality work is most important to you and you continue to do what you are now but let go of the anger at the others on the team since it’s only hurting you at this point; or you can control your behavior – meaning you change what you’re doing, in this case stop covering for others, do your part – well – and past that let the chips fall where they may so that there’s an incentive for the situation to change.

          Otherwise you’re stuck with that definition of insanity – doing the same thing and expecting a different result. I know it sucks that YOU have to take the brunt of doing something when others are at fault, but since you’re the one being impacted by it that’s unfortunately the situation.

          1. MacGillicuddy*

            I agree with the other commenters. You have to be willing to let things fail. That is the only way your boss is going to do anything about this problem. Because so far, it isn’t the boss’s problem. You have made it YOUR problem. And as long as you continue to do that, your boss will not address it.

            It’s commendable that you take pride in the company’s product. But you’re trying to solve a systemic problem all by yourself. Nobody is going to hold your coworkers accountable for doing their jobs poorly, because there’s no consequence to their actual lousy work. You are fixing everything yourself. So your actions are preventing the problem from being solved by the people whose job it is to solve it.

            Be careful – if you think your company is eternally grateful for all the extra work you’re putting in, it isn’t. They’ll add you to the layoff list in a hot minute.

            1. Alex*

              I mean, it’s not that I disagree with the assessment. It’s just that stuff HAS failed. And no one ever does anything about it. When stuff fails, it just creates more problems. No one is ever held accountable.

              The project would have been much easier if people had been competent in the first place–a huge amount of time was dedicated to fixing all the mistakes from previous work my team had done. No one ever approached my boss about it because she just gets angry and makes empty lists of things to do and never follows through.

              I’m kind of resigned to doing what I’m doing (and job searching) but I am going to be asked to make a plan of how not to do it, which means an explanation of why I AM doing it. And that explanation isn’t kind and I don’t feel like I can say it to my boss.

              1. KK*

                I would straight up say it to her but try to have things lined up.

                For example, say I had to do X because Katniss kept asking for more time and never actually did anything, per these emails where I tried to talk to her about it. Then I had to do Y because Peeta hasn’t done C D or E Soni knew I couldn’t count on him for Y, see these slack messages/whatever.

                Of course this is all contingent on the fact that you have hard evidence of this, and if you don’t I’d start only doing that sort of scheduling via email so you have a paper trail for the next conversation with the boss.

                1. Claire*

                  Yes I like this. I think the important thing here is that you don’t need to offer additional color commentary about why you think your coworkers didn’t do anything, you just simply state the facts that you asked them to do x, y and z but it never got done. Leave it to your boss to interpret why.

      2. Troutwaxer*

        Agreed Completely. And document, document, document, making sure you have access to all your documentation regardless of the circumstances.

    2. Rick T*

      Say nothing, and Stop being Fixit Felicia. Stop working 7 days a week, stop fixing things, and stop caring since nobody else does. If the products are bad and the clients are angry send their calls to as high up in the company as you can, a Grandboss at least. It is not your sole problem to fix.

      It looks to me like you have far more emotional investment in this company than anyone on your team OR your boss. Don’t care more than she does, and she obviously doesn’t care very much at all.

      It sounds like the department (and possibly) company will fail when you resign. Let it.

  128. Grim*

    The jobs report showed that 266,000 Americans obtained employment in the past 4 months, as opposed to the one million new jobs the government expected. The current talking points are that people aren’t looking for work because of the enhanced unemployment benefits they’re recieving, plus the stimulus checks.

    I’m curious how many AA readers are in this position where they’ve decided to stay home rather than seek employment? If I was unemployed, I’d be out looking for work 10 hours a day, regardless of my current unemployment benefits.

    1. D3*

      The current *Republican* talking points, you mean. Right up there with they mythical “welfare queen” that wasn’t real, either. I could be more specific but I don’t want to inflame this political thing you’ve brought up.
      I know of no one doing this. I have not seen any reports on this issue that interview anyone actually doing this. Just reports where people complain that this is why they can’t hire people for a pittance. Add up what the “enhanced unemployment benefits” currently happening are, and the amounts of the stimulus check, and ask yourself what kind of work you could do that would earn you less money than that.
      Unemployment and stimulus checks are not the problem. It’s not that people don’t want to work.

    2. WellRed*

      I’m not in that situation but agree I’d rather have the job. UIdoesnt come with insurance or 401k and after all and it is short term. However to those whining about people preferring the UI. Well no sht! Maybe they should be asking themselves why such a small amount of money is still better than working. That’s the real problem!

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I wonder how many people that are getting unemployment benefits are women whose job options pay relatively poorly and don’t accommodate for childcare. If I were in that situation, I’m pretty sure I’d be saving as much from unemployment as I can before the enhancements run out again and I’m stuck looking for low-paying jobs with crappy schedules and panicking about affording childcare.

        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          And schools aren’t fully opened yet it some areas.

          I just read a story about a school that’s letting parents claim a religious exemption if they don’t want their kids wearing a mask. (What religion is that, anyway?!)

          If I had a kid in that district, I wouldn’t be comfortable letting them back in the building.

        2. Reba*

          Yes, if you look at the jobs numbers more closely, all the gains were made by men.

    4. 653-CXK*

      Are the people who are receiving these enhanced checks also actively looking for jobs? When I took unemployment three years ago (I can’t believe it’s that long), I spent about two hours a day looking for a job, interviewing, etc. and the condition was that I had to be actively looking for a job (three per week) in order to receive unemployment checks.

    5. KK*

      Another thing I wonder about is why are people cutting unemployment instead of telling businesses far and wide if their employees reject the job offer the UI will be revoked?

      I thought maybe that fact (that I had only read here) was only for certain states, but I looked it up and it’s the law on the federal level! I don’t get why everyone is avoiding a clear easy answer to the problem.

    7. Which part is grim?*

      Hmm, which would you choose:
      A) collect enhanced benefits without working & be able to pay rent & expenses, or
      B) work part-time/low income & not be able to pay rent & expenses?

      Where I am companies are griping about not being able to hire seasonal staff – for $12/hour up to 20 hours/week, for up to three months. Suggestions that they pay more, offer more hours, & maybe plan to keep staff on after three months are met with something less than enthusiasm.

      Did you notice the truly grim news, that we are still down at least eight million full time jobs since last Spring?

    8. OyHiOh*

      What I’ve noticed is that there’s still issues around childcare and school – A LOT of schools are on hybrid schedules and a parent needs to be home on online learning days; and even disregarding childcare issues, people want to feel more safe before returning to work (especially service/hospitality), people have learned the value of their time and are holding the line for better pay/hours/management, and people have taken the opportunity to retrain in a new line of work.

      It’s not “I’d rather sit on unemployment and benefit from the work of others,” its “I have to be at home when my children aren’t at school or I need to feel safe or need an employer who values my experience or I’m taking this moment to learn something new” and for a lot of people, it’s some mixture of all the above.

    9. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      I’m not looking for a job for the time being, but I’m also not claiming any benefits, so it’s not totally relevant to your question, but the reason why I’m not looking yet is because I’m waiting for full vaccination and for things to calm down a little in general. My husband is happy for me to play housewife for the time being and our household expenses have dropped enough in the last year that it’s not a big financial strain. Normally my job would have me travelling all over to different job sites so we’ve decided that since we can afford to stay home it’s safer for everyone if we do.

      Frankly it seems that staying on unemployment as long as possible is the rational choice, especially for people who work in fields with a lot of public contact or that are currently shut down but will undoubtedly be booming once it’s sufficiently safe (entertainment and conferences, for instance). If I’m pretty sure that I can survive a little longer without having to get a stopgap job in a field that I’m not interested in but wouldn’t want to leave at short notice when my actual career field picks up then that’s what I’ll do.

  129. sassy*

    End of the day so no one’s going to see this lol

    It’s review time! I’ve been with the company one year. My boss had too much on his plate to do my formal review today but let me know I could expect a $2/hr increase on my next check. That’s nice but I was planning to push for 3. Should I talk to him now or wait until we do the sit down convo next week?

    1. sassy*

      Btw I know it’s hubris but someone else in the company (who does similar work but at a lower level) recently got a $5 increase… And you never get shit you don’t ask for!

    2. Grim*

      $2 increase per paycheck sounds very meager, unless you talkin per hour.

      How much is a $2 increase as a percentage of your weekly total?

    3. KK*

      I would go for it but be careful with your wording and how much you push. Yes you don’t get things you don’t ask for but I would make it clear that if the answer is no you’ll drop it.

      I also wouldn’t bring up the other person, because there could be behind the scenes things going on that you aren’t privy to, like maybe they haven’t gotten a bump in a few years and this is making up for it or something.

  130. Blarg*

    So, I’ve read a lot on this site about how you really should dress to match your workplace culture, rather than dressing more formally than the rest of the office. But, well, when I reenter the workforce after graduate school I kinda have to. My field and local culture is very much a jeans and polo one, but I don’t wear jeans and I’m not going to start. Because of my obesity, my choices with pants with a belt are to tighten my belt enough to hold them up securely, which is painful, especially when I sit down, or to loosen my belt enough not to hurt, in which case they sag and, well, we all know the problems with that abd that’s humiliating. Also I get hot and jeans are terrible if you get hot. Jeans just aren’t type of clothing that really work for me. Suspenders work as a solution, but buying pants with suspender buttons off the rack is a pain, and I get slacks made to measure with buttons. And honestly I think well fitting slacks are just more comfortable than jeans anyway, especially in hot weather. I don’t think suspenders and a polo look good, though, so I lean towards full button up shirts, and that’s pretty much the minimum workplace clothing for me. But summer heat permitting, I kinda prefer to add a suit vest over my suspenders because I just plain enjoy wearing vests. I’ll gladly forgo wearing a tie or suit jacket, but otherwise, even in a casual office where jeans are standard, I’m leaning towards a noticeably more formal, dressier look. The advice I typically hear is “Well don’t do that”, but I don’t even look good or professional in jeans because jeans just don’t fit my body type. Part of me feels like I’m better off just wearing clothes that work for me, but what do people much older and worldwise than me think?

    1. Ranon*

      I feel like the answer here is fun sneakers and button downs that lean casual with the clothes you like to wear, but I’m no fashion maven.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I agree. Dress how works for you, then make it casual where you can. Personally, I love the sneakers with more formal attire look. (I’m thinking Flynn Carson in The Librarians.) I have done something similar by pairing a dress with fun tights and/or a denim jacket.

        1. Blarg*

          I’m actually not fond of sneakers. Literally all of the footwear I own is boots, sandals, or slippers. I wear a lot of boots. Hiking boots are top tier comfort for me in terms of foot wear, but I also have dress boots. What I was thinking is maybe getting a more casual color palette? I get these clothes made to measure and I’m getting some pants and shirts ordered next week, and you can do a vest with a suit fabric in the front and liner in the back. Maybe khaki and turquoise or beach blue for a more beachy, summery look? And maybe a matching turquoise/blue bow tie, because bow ties are fun and whimsical.

          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            Consulting my husband who wears pretty much exclusively button-downs and (well, he wears jeans, but) and loves vests when he can get away with them – he says that if you go with a patterned fabric, that can casual a button-down some, as well as rolling up the sleeves a little bit. Also, since you’re getting your stuff custom made, lean into it with bright colors and some nerd fandom type patterns, if you have those types of fandoms – quote, “anyone learn to be cool, it takes courage to be weird” :) For the patterned fabric, check out Spoonflower – I have a super cute dress that looks like a nice damask pattern until you get close enough to notice that it’s x-wings and Star Wars silhouettes, and I’d wear it to work if it didn’t have a corset back. Also, maybe goofy pins or buttons on your suspenders? Not like, 37 pieces of flair level, but one or two at a time.

            1. Blarg*

              I mean fandoms are, like, 60% of what I care about in life, and the rest is mostly trains (actually I did just buy locomotive earrings from the California State Railroad Museum, come to think of it). My place wouldn’t have any, like, copyrighted fabrics available, but I could do that for a pocket square. Also now I’m looking at Fandom earrings on Etsy but I need to restrain myself from getting TOO much.

        2. Blarg*

          Actually now that I think about it, what about nice earrings? Most people perceive me as a man (I’m trans), and a guy with, like, hibiscus earrings or orca earrings or science earrings is whimsical.

          1. KK*

            I think fun earrings would work!

            Esty has tons of fun ones if you want to pick up more!

      1. Malarkey01*

        I think fun casual shoes or accessories or anything that shows your personality are a great idea.
        Another thought though- don’t worry about it. Every office usually has one if not a few people who just dress a little less casual and usually it comes off as they are more trendy or fashionable or stylish. I know being a larger size it can feel like you are more self conscious about how you appear and wanting to stand out less, but the office before this one both our office fashionistas were larger and all we ever thought was how their clothing set off their personality and made them fun.
        If you were rocking a three piece suit and tie when others were wearing jeans and flip flops it might look stuffy but what you describe as non denim pants with a fun vest seems only one step above and not out of place.

    3. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      Wear what you like! My husband hates jeans and always wears slacks or chinos. He had a pair of jeans but honestly he looked weird in them. Unless you are getting pushback from others I don’t think it’s a problem to be slightly more formal.

    4. LQ*

      Wear what works for you. Attitude is a part of this that I don’t see anyone else has mentioned. A shrug and “honestly? this is just what I’m most comfortable in” can go a long way. You end up with a quirk. The thing is if you’re a jerk otherwise people will pile this onto the jerk pile. If you’re otherwise pleasant, warm, or even weird but approachable it’ll be a thing you do that people find charming.
      Be careful about mentioning anything about other’s fashion choices with anything shy of genuine enthusiasm, and even then, if you are someone who tends to sarcasm, don’t. People will take it as an attack or a “you think you’re better than us”.
      I suspect you’ll be able to be just fine, it doesn’t sound like you’re wildly formal and you just sound like you’ll be more comfortable and yourself in clothes that work for you so go with that.

    5. Dr. Anonymous*

      Wear what works for you and just roll up the sleeves. As long as you don’t wear a tie people will stop noticing after a while. You can go nerdy if you want people intrigued but if you just want to fly under the radar, stick to business casual neutrals. I agree suspenders with a polo is weirder than suspenders with a button-up shirt and it sounds like you’ve got everything sorted except this blanket office dress advice that just doesn’t work for you.

    6. Cedars*

      You’ll be happier and more productive if you aren’t fighting with a specific clothing item that doesn’t work for you. So long as you’re hitting the overall dressiness level, you’ll be OK.

      FWIW, I work in a similar environment – jeans and a semi-dressy shirt, usually button-downs with a colorful geometric print, polos, or washable blouses for women. My boss is two-airplane-seat fat; he wears suspenders plus a button-down. Also jeans. I had to think about it, so it must not stand out. IMO slacks plus hiking boots would read about the same as jeans. The suit vest might be odd enough to pass off as a personal quirk, rather than some kind of “oh so you think you’re a suit” snobbery thing.

  131. Lime*

    Hi there, regular reader and first time poster! I hope I’m not too late.

    I am absolutely sure I’ve read a response to this question before, but of course now I need it I can’t find it.

    I have been in my current role for 10 years, which is unusual in my area of work. There are a few reasons for this. During this time my title has stayed the same, but I have taken on extra responsibilities.

    I’m looking for a way to reflect this in my resume, so that it doesn’t look like I’ve been doing the exact same tasks for a decade! Does anyone have suggestions about the best way to reflect this?

    1. Kathenus*

      How about something like this:
      Teapot specialist
      2010 – present
      Responsibility 1
      Responsibility 2
      2015 – to present
      Responsibility 3
      Responsibility 4
      2019 – present
      Responsibility 5
      Responsibility 6

    2. KK*

      Maybe you could add the additional responsibilities like this:

      Llama Groomer, 2011-present
      – Trimmed hooves (2011)
      – Shaved llamas (2013)
      – coordinated groomer schedule (2019)

      But if that seems off or anyone else has a better please chime in!

  132. Maggie Simpson*

    So I started a new career track job mid-pandemic, after being laid off, then taking a temp receptionist job to pay the bills. However, this week it has come to light just how non-seriously the company is taking covid (exposing employees to an active case, hiding it and trying to cover it up and then encouraging employees to break government restrictions on quarantining etc…). Note that we are in a massive hotspot, under severe lockdown measures and almost no employees have one dose of the vaccine, no one has both. I had been struggling with this role somewhat, due to the organizational culture and poor pay, but job hunting was so freaking tough last time. I’m going to start looking again now but am a) seriously worried about how this looks job hopping wise and b) how do I explain why I’m looking without seriously dissing my current employer? Something along the lines of “I’m job searching because I was uncomfortable with how my current employer handled covid”?

    1. voluptuousfire*

      Absolutely! The office handling Covid exposure in such a cavalier way is definitely a reason to explain why you’re looking. They’re not keeping their employees safe. Any good employer will blanch at how things are being handled.

      Alison has a few posts about how to handle this, I think. Check the archives!

    2. VMA*

      I would absolutely understand that as a reason you’re leaving a job, and seems like a good screening tactic for future employers. I believe covid response is a very good indicator of how a place values its people overall.

  133. KK*

    A recent interaction with my manager got me thinking: do most managers just assume people act EXACTLY THE SAME WAY when they are there vs when they aren’t, especially for entry level jobs?

    I mentioned to her that Sally didn’t want to help me with a task because she was uncomfortable (didn’t think she was knowledgeable enough to help me), but then Sally popped up on a Zoom call with Alice (another manager, but not our direct supervisor) helping her do the task. I wasn’t surprised, it’s easier to say no to a peer and a lot harder to do so with someone with authority, but my manager seemed genuinely shocked by this.

    Thoughts?

    1. Roci*

      I think that’s kinda weird too. Either Sally knows how to do the task well enough to be helpful or she doesn’t. Maybe she didn’t have time to help you and was trying to push it off that way. But If she is normally a nice and helpful employee I would expect her to help both of you or try to get out of both saying she doesn’t know how to do the task.

      I think it’s a sign of low integrity to act very differently with peers/people “beneath you” vs people “above you”.

    2. Dr. Anonymous*

      It could also be Sally didn’t feel comfortable with the task but didn’t feel comfortable admitting that to Alice so she tried it anyway–not that she was blowing you off and kissing up to Alice. And it turned out she could do it.

  134. Flying Fish*

    I work in a huge healthcare system. I’m a nurse practitioner/physician assistant in a specialty practice, so, for example, llama tails. It’s such a big practice that they have two teams of llama tail nurse practitioners/physician assistants, one for the hospitalized llamas and one for the outpatient llamas. We work with 15+ llama tail doctors who go back and forth between inpatient and outpatient work.

    I’m burned out on of the outpatient llama tails for so many reasons. COVID has just accentuated the challenges that I was already having and I just can’t do this specialty in this place anymore. I’m at the point of anxiety and palpitations every day. I work almost every day and I’m perpetually behind. If my coworkers weren’t also stressed beyond all belief, I’d feel really stupid and inept. It’s not just me, though, it’s everyone.

    I’ve been applying to other specialties that could be good branching off points from llama tails. One has fallen through, and another just told me that they’d rather hire me for their open lllama tail position instead of the llama foot position I applied for. Some of the other specialty positions I’m interested in are in the same overall healthcare system. Llama ears or fur or hearts, anything that’s specialty and not primary care.

    Now a in-patient llama tail position has opened up. It’s employment through the hospital, but would be working with the same llama tail doctors that I work with now on the outpatient side. I can’t decide if applying is playing with fire or a good way to keep working on llama tails in a different setting. If I apply, my current employer -will- know I’m actively looking for another job. They don’t want to loose any of us on the outpatient side. My performance hasn’t been my usual lately due to sheer volume and burnout, and it would be easy for them to point that out as a reason for the hospital not to hire me for inpatient work. I think it would be easy for them to make it harder for me to work anywhere in the hospital system. On the other hand, people apply for other positions within the same organization all the time. I don’t know how much it happens in healthcare, but from reading AAM it’s clear that it’s a Thing That Happens.

    What would you do?

    1. Roci*

      I don’t know anything about healthcare but I would ask this:
      Would this job help with your stress and burnout? I’m not sure if doing the same kind of thing with the same people you already work with would be markedly better enough to offset any negative impact.

    2. Dr. Anonymous*

      Gaah! Everybody in health care is burned out and nobody is firing on all cylinders. I would think everyone hiring knows this and if you have references who can speak to prior years of stellar performance that should cover you. If you’re sure you’re seeing the hospital side clearly and it’s a better deal for you, go for it. If they make it hard for you they deserve all the additional attrition they’re going to get.

      1. Smh RN*

        In my area in Canada it’s totally normal for ppl to move around within a site/organization when they need a change or just want to not be stuck in a particular speciality. All the managers I know recognize it’s an expected part of life

    3. Taxachusetts*

      I think you should talk to your manager first before applying, to let them know this is what you’re thinking about and what you’ve been gone through. I imagine that anyone who manages in healthcare would want to make sure their team is doing well to ensure that patient safety remains at a high level. Also, it is common to apply for other jobs in a large company but also most have a general policy that you need to talk to your manager first. That’s the case in my company (also a large healthcare system)- your manager must have a conversation first with the hiring manager. Even if you don’t talk to your manager the hiring manager probably would anyway so it’s best to have the conversation now.

      This is all assuming also that inpatient would be better for your mental health. Maybe it won’t- can you talk to the other people that work on that side to see if it would be the right fit? I would also encourage you to talk to your Employee Assistance Program for help with your anxiety and burnout.

  135. Europa*

    A question to my fellow Americans working in Europe: How did you find a job here?

    I’ve always liked the idea of working in Europe, specifically in Germany/ France/Spain, but never really know where to start. I understand many job prospects are most likely low with the pandemic, but I do hope to see if I can get myself out there once things get better. So, would it be better to find a job that has other international branches? Or should I start looking for direct-hire type of jobs? I only know English so I also understand language barrier might be one hurdle I’ll have to go through.

    1. KK*

      How far out of college are you? If not very, I’d see if your email still works and see if your college sends recruiting emails to Alums.

      I only bring this up because literally yesterday I checked my old college email and was invited to a information session sponsored by the Canadian Consulate trying to get Americans to move to Canada to work. Worth a shot!

    2. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      I’d start by looking at visas, myself. Depending on your field you might find that you are eligible for visas aimed at attracting people in high demand fields.

    3. Sandra*

      Hey Europa, I’m not an American, however I am from a third country (non-European country) working in Europe. My first question to you would be to ask what your profession and skills are? If the level of demand for your skillset and experience is high, then employers are more likely to hire and support the working rights (e.g. visa or equivalent) process. For example, I work in accounting and US GAAP practitioners are usually in moderate to high demand, depending on the location and company needs. Also, check if you are eligible for a European passport through heritage, e.g., if your parents or grandparents hold (or did hold) citizenship rights in another country, as this would help with working rights.

  136. VMA*

    I need some quick advice. I was terminated for performance (a saga about which I’ve emailed a question) and told my last day would be the end of May. I have another job lined up and due to that and other financial issues, would like to move my last day up, but can only give about 10 days notice. The 2 weeks notice rule should not apply in this situation since they’ve already fired me, correct? I believe this was horribly mismanaged so there’s definitely no loyalty in either direction right now.

    1. The teapots are on fire*

      If they’ve fired you, they probably won’t give you any crap if you leave earlier. Just ask nicely, explain you’ve found another job, and say, given that, would you mind if my last day is X?

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        That’s the route I’d go, and I’d probably commit to the new job first and just no-call no-show starting on June 1st if old job doesn’t cooperate. They can’t double-fire you, and if they complain you stopped coming to work after they fired you, I can’t imagine anyone taking that complaint seriously.

    2. Triplestep*

      Leaving earlier than the notice period usually is grounds for a “no re-hire” classification in your record with the company, but you’ve been fired so you won’t be looking to go back or get a reference so … congrats on your new job!

  137. Georgie*

    Hi, everyone.
    I want to ask everyone if I can apply for basic bookkeeper or administrative assistant roles. I’m finishing up getting my associates degree in accounting, and I will be transferring to a university to work on my bachelors, get a 150 credit hours, and I plan to sit in for the CPA exam.
    I’ve only worked retail-related jobs. Will my associates degree in accounting help me get basic bookkeeper or administrative assistant roles or should I not bother because I have no experience in an office setting? My current GPA is 3.9.
    It was hard to get into retail because of the “no experience” rule. Will the “no experience” in bookkeeping or an office setting hurt me even though I’m very passionate about accounting?

  138. LetsGoYanks94*

    Hi, first time poster here. Please be kind.
    I work as a biostatistician and someone recently forwarded me a job position for a research analyst job. Are biostatistician and research analyst job titles one and the same? Does one job title play better than the other when potential resumes are looked at? I have read the job description of this job and it is pretty much what I do but I am looking to do more, maybe get to manage team of statisticians and less of being the guy who does all background work. this seems like a lateral move. Honestly the only reason I would consider this job is if there is clear line for promotion, pay is more with same or better benefits, and work from home which I currently do.
    appreciate any feedback!

    1. Triplestep*

      Biostatistatistics is huge right now. I would not leave a role with that title for a lateral move to a job that is similar.

  139. Rebecca H.*

    I was offered my dream job after graduating recently with my master’s degree. I need to turn it down; after paying for summer childcare I would literally be paying to work(I currently have a higher paying job that’s more flexible but the company is toxic; but I need to transition elsewhere this year but can manage for a few more months). However in the fall I will be moving across the county line to a county that has fantastic and affordable after school and summer care—but only for county residents. I don’t want to burn bridges at this company because they have many positions in my field(social work) and I’d love to apply for another position after I’ve moved. How do I do this?! I have to regretfully turn this job down but I want to keep the door open with this agency.

    1. The teapots are on fire*

      Just be polite when you turn them down and explain it won’t work for you financially currently. If there’s a contact you’re comfortable with at the company, call and tell them the story–child care costs are prohibitive where you live now and will be until you move in the fall but you’d love to be considered in the future when your circumstances are different.

  140. Apple Tree*

    I’m thinking about quitting without something lined up. I am fortunate to be in a financial situation where this is ok for me.

    I’ve been with my company for over 15 years, starting off in a minimum wage position and working my way up to a corporate director role. I loved the place for many years, but we’ve had nearly complete turnover at the C and senior executive levels, causing a cultural shift that I just don’t like. My team was hit with a huge RIF at the start of COVID, followed by the announcement of 6 major projects that we’d need to complete, so I’ve been working a totally absurd schedule. Staff was never replenished. Last week my new boss finally got the memo that none of these projects will get done without staff, so he up and hired an offshore firm clear on the opposite side of the clock to do these highly specialized projects without speaking to me.

    Things are totally unsustainable, and I’ve been wanting to make the leap for about 8 months, but given workload I just don’t have the energy to job hunt and work at the same time. I also want to make an industry change and work in an individual contributor role for a bit before considering a return to management, just to freshen up my skills as they’ve atrophied a bit. I plan to spend the summer months recovering from my severe burnout and doing some learning about the industry I want to move on to, and working on some personal projects, before starting the application process.

    Anyone have any words of advice? I have a strong resume and recs from C level people, but I feel a lot of fear about the gap being a problem during interviews. *I* would not hold this gap against me, but from reading this site it sounds like that’s decidedly not true of many panels. I’ve gotten over fear of leaving my company, which TBH has felt like getting ready to file for divorce given the length of the relationship and the blood, sweat, and tears over my entire adult life.

    1. retired*

      No direct experience, but experience in retiring from a toxic job. It takes a long time to recover. I would think your improved mental health would offset the problem of the employment gap in an interview. Is there something you’re passionate about you can volunteer for in the gap? I always intended to spend the second half of my life “giving back” and it’s a lot like work…people you can’t control, issues you care about, successes and failures. Work skills are really valuable in managing all that. That would “be” the gap, perhaps.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Normally, I would say don’t quit without something lined up. It takes a long time to find another job nowadays. But if your financial situation can handle what might be a 3-6 month job search, and your health and/or sanity is suffering from your current job, then quit with a generous notice.

      Before you do though, have you explored other avenues? Is there any possibility you could go part-time, or continue as a freelancer with your current company if you quit? Sometimes, this can bridge a gap (though with your 15 years I don’t think you’ll have a serious issue with a gap). Either way, planning is key to quitting this way, and it sounds like you’ve put a lot of thought into it. Good luck!

      1. Apple Tree*

        Thank you for your advice. I think the company will be unlikely to take me up on the part time/freelance route given the nature of my role, but I also think it would be a good call for me to offer that. I may not want to be there anymore, but I also want to leave positively.

    3. Lizzo*

      If you rely on your professional network to get your next job, a gap won’t matter. In my experience, potential employers look at gaps as a source of concern *if they don’t have other evidence to weigh against it.* Getting hired by someone in your network, or being referred to an opening via your network, means you come pre-approved, and the gap won’t be dwelled upon.

      If you can swing it financially, get out now, and focus on recovering so that you can be confident and healthy for your next opportunity.

  141. i'm back*

    When should I start applying for jobs when wanting to start at the beginning of November? Public sector or nonprofit

  142. justabot*

    Ugh, on Friday my work gave corsages to all the mothers in the office to wear. I get it, but I’m childless NOT by choice and Mother’s Day is a hard time in general. It just felt so weird watching all the mothers walking around all day wearing these huge flowers while only a few of us were the only women without one. Whether it’s a fair way to feel or not, it just really felt awful in my face. Even just giving out flowers may have been better? I kinda wish work places wouldn’t get involved in this kind of thing. Not every women is a mother or able to have children or perhaps even estranged from her child or has a mother or a happy relationship with her own mother. It’s just not a happy day for everyone. If I’m being sensitive, I get it, I am, but the corsages seemed somewhat insensitive to me and just made me feel “othered.” I know they meant well and people don’t always think or realize what an emotional landmine they are walking into with Mother’s Day. I know many women who avoid going to church of Mother’s Day for the same reason — to avoid being singled out for not being a mother. But at least that’s a choice to not go. I would prefer it be left out of my professional environment too. Anyone else relate?

    1. Triplestep*

      Yes, that’s weird. I actually AM a mother and I would not want to be recognized for it at work. It has nothing to do with my career and would make me feel othered, too. (I’m one of the oldest people on my team.) I’m sorry someone at your workplace decided this would be a good idea. I can see how it would be painful for you.

    2. Just Another Manic Millie*

      I can’t really relate, because I’m a senior citizen who was never a mother and never worked for a company that did anything for Mother’s Day, but I definitely sympathize with you. I wonder what they do for Father’s Day, and how the childless male employees feel about it.

      But ITA that what the company is doing is terrible, not just because TPTB are hurting childless female employees, but they are also hurting female employees who used to have a child or children but then the child/children died. Do those women get corsages? Do they NOT get corsages? What a mess!

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