open thread – July 2-3, 2021

by Alison Green on July 2, 2021

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Speaking unprepared*

    Can anyone recommend simple resources for improving your ability to speak on the fly?

    I’m not looking for practice polishing my ability to give a presentation or speech, like with Toastmasters. I specifically want to improve the impression I give when I’m speaking about something off the cuff, without the opportunity to prepare.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I struggle with this as well. I feel like my vocabulary isn’t as dynamic as other people I work with.

    2. Atx*

      I do this really well. I think being a subject matter expert helps, my outgoing personality, and I’m not afraid to go off on tangents or speak my mind. If something I say is wrong, I will admit it. If I go off on a tangent, I usually just joke about it and say “well that was irrelevant!” Or “I don’t know where I was going with that” and people giggle.

      Confidence helps as well. I’ve always been very self-confident.

      1. EnfysNest*

        When using Indeed for job searching, does it make a difference whether you apply directly through Indeed or look up the company’s website and apply there? I had one recently where Indeed would have had me applying for just one position, but the website just had a general “enter your info and we’ll see if we like you for anything” option, so I wasn’t sure if it was better to apply for the specific position on Indeed or through the more generic form on the company website, and I’ve spotted a couple others with slightly different processes and I don’t know if it makes any difference.

      2. green beans*

        Oh, that is me exactly. I almost never extensively prep for public feedback and I am always told I’m a good speaker.

      3. RagingADHD*

        Um…how do you propose that OP might use your many flavors of innate giftedness as a resource to develop a skill set?

    3. Four Leaf Clover*

      The book Think On Your Feet by Jen Oleniczak Brown really helped me. She used to be an improv teacher, and had a lot of great techniques for communicating in those kinds of unexpected moments.

    4. Bloopmaster*

      Honestly, even if you’re looking to give impromptu remarks rather than formal presentations, Toastmasters still offers useful techniques. Often, the reason that speaking on the fly is challenging is that you don’t have time to prepare and therefore don’t always know what your main point is and how to get there. Structured activities like Toastmasters allow you to frequently practice that 5-10 second prep that gets you speaking concisely and coherently.
      Even if you’re not into joining a group, practicing speaking on the fly will help you do it in real life. Pick a topic (at random or from a list of things you might commonly be called to talk about) and then just make 2-3 points about it. Record yourself to better examine your flow, coherence, and intonation. Or put yourself into more settings where you are conversant, whether it’s among friends or meeting people for the first time.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Seconded. Only part of toastmasters is prepared–a lot us extemporaneous Q&A. Or at least that’s what I saw at the branch that people were trying to start at my office before pandemic.

        1. MC Toast*

          I agree. You can visit a Toastmasters club without obligation to join and try it out. Many clubs are still meeting online which makes it easy to try different ones to find a good fit. All the clubs I’ve met with have been very friendly, supportive, and welcoming. Good luck!

    5. T*

      I struggle with this too! My current concern is interview questions. One thing I’m doing is randomly selecting an interview question to verbally answer out loud to myself and also after some meetings I summarize important points verbally to myself.

      1. Artemesia*

        If you are not good at this — and most people aren’t, then preparation is the key. Everyone should go into interviews having identified examples from their experience that fit the half dozen most likely behavioral interview questions. If you have half a dozen specific examples of things you have dealt with in the workplace then you can adapt those to any question thrown at you.

        For impromptu remarks? What are the kinds of things you are going to be asked to do on the fly? Think about what you might say ahead of time. And having a simple structure may help. What will you say to grab their attention? An anecdote or rhetorical question perhaps. What are two points you might make on the topic. How will you close with a punch.

        Practice while you are in the shower or driving so these things come easier.

        1. Llama Llama*

          Also if you’re really prepping for something like an interview or other *really important* conversation, record yourself. This will help if you have difficulties with things like tone, pauses, um’s etc.

      2. SJC*

        For interview questions, look up the STAR method of answering. That might be a useful framework for keeping your thoughts organized when answering.

    6. Falling Diphthong*

      A technique I’ve heard of if you find you’re using a ton of filler words (um, like, you know, um, uh) is to take your default filler word and say it 20 times fast to get it out of your system. The specific context was a reporter before an interview, but if you know you might need to answer questions or inject comments off the cuff you can try this before the thing starts.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          Yes; after a solid minute of “Um well um well um well um well um well….” one is sick of the phrase, and it recedes for a while. Most useful if you have one go-to tic. (The reporter’s was “You know?”)

    7. OneFishTwoFish*

      At a company I used to work for we had a training exercise that was designed exactly for this. It might sound silly, but it’s actually a lot of fun and I found it to be helpful. How the exercise worked was you’d have a bowl that had pieces of paper with random nouns on them, they don’t have to be work related at all. The more random the better. So one person would draw two words from the bowl, when I went I believe my words were Xerox and fish, and you would then get 10 seconds to prepare and then you would have to speak for one minute and somehow connect your two words. The other people in the group would listen to you speak and at the end try to guess your words, but the goal was to not emphasize the words or necessarily make it obvious, but just to speak on the fly. I believe I made up a story about losing a pet fish and using Xerox machine to make flyers to post in the neighborhood about my lost pet. Like I said, it’s silly and not work related, but it really helps with just being able to talk about anything!

    8. Employee of the Bearimy*

      Toastmasters actually has a regular section (Table Topics) where members practice short, impromptu speeches on a topic that’s given to them. For me it was one of the most useful sections as it allowed me to practice organizing a coherent short speech on the fly, plus it gave me a much better understanding of how long 2 minutes actually is (many people under- or overestimate quite a bit).

    9. Sparkles McFadden*

      I was always good at this, which is weird, because I am pretty introverted. But…I just really loved my job and thought about how to improve things all the time. (My brain is a very noisy place sometimes!) I also enjoy exchanging ideas with people and having them challenge my plans so I could be sure we had everything covered, so I kind of liked being put on the spot sometimes.

      So…what to do? I’m not sure what sort of work you do, so the following may not apply:

      – Staying organized in general helps all around. I always kept “to do” lists and I made running lists of accomplishments so I could refresh my memory before reviews or one-on-ones. This would help me keep relevant facts fresh in my mind. That makes “hallway discussions” easier

      – Be upfront about being the type of person who likes to prepare. Give a very broad response and say “I’d like to review some notes so I can be sure I am giving you accurate information. Can you drop by my office at 2:00?” Or, “Let me just grab my notebook and I’ll be right back.”

      – Focus on the person to whom you are speaking. I think this is really important because I always found that people would speak at other people, not to them. What does this person want to know? How detailed do you need to be? Don’t think about impressing the person or performing well on the spot. Think of it as helping someone out with information.

    10. Aquawoman*

      I don’t know if this is an issue for you, but I do find that it helps me to very consciously slow down. Rather than start talking and finding the answer as you go, start with something like, “well, that’s a complicated question” or even just “that’s a good question” and then pause a sec to think what you want to say. Also, speaking more slowly makes me less likely to go off on tangents.

    11. K*

      Toastmasters does have opportunities to practice speaking on the fly, at least mine did. I found it really helpful, you were just given a random topic and tried to speak to it as best as possible. The feedback I received, or heard given to others, was also helpful (both for prepared and on the fly).

    12. Princess Trachea-Aurelia Belaroth*

      Obviously this is not for everyone, And may not even help everyone, but if it fits your circumstances and sounds useful, consider doing a podcast. My friends and I started one just before covid and it has brought back those instincts I had lost from literature class discussions in college.

      If you don’t want to be posting them or don’t know what to talk about, do something informal. By yourself, you can start doing a quick 15 minute discussion of, for instance, aspects of your work, or your evaluation of your favorite TV show. If you have a friend who also wants to improve their speaking, you can do a casual book club, or Newest Marvel Series Club.

      The topic doesn’t matter. The goal is to talk about something concrete in an intentional way, and then to be able to listen back to it. You’ll become more aware of your speech patterns and the way you present ideas. If you have difficulty articulating something, you can go back and rethink your approach. It’s also helped me become much more aware of how I listen to others–I’ve found several times that I was misunderstanding what someone else was trying to say in the moment, because I was set in my own thought patterns, and so my answer was not really what I would have liked to say.

      Essentially, you can treat it as an even more casual Toastmasters, that you can study after the fact. It’s also nice to save those conversations, if you do it with friends.

      1. Actual Vampire*

        I’ve found that even just listening to unscripted podcasts has made me a better conversationalist. It’s like it trains my brain to think at conversation-speed.

        1. Princess Trachea-Aurelia Belaroth*

          Listening to others talk seriously has an effect on one’s brain. I find myself adjusting to what I listen to all the time. Podcasts are one. But also if I listen to a lot of standup, I start thinking in bits. Ted Talks, video essays, etc., all effect my inner voice, and then probably my outer voice, lol

          1. The New Wanderer*

            Oh yes, listening to standup definitely affects my sense of timing and phrasing, and when I should get off the stage too. It has helped when I need to make a point but want to make it short and snappy.

    13. Gloucesterina*

      Does it make sense to identify what context you’re speaking in/your goal for what you’re saying–e.g., interviews; meetings with a larger group; one on one meetings with supervisors; interactions with customers or whomever you “serve” in your role?

    14. Tessera Member 042*

      Probably less useful than the resources others have mentioned, but there is a game called Talking Points in the Jackbox Party Pack 7 where each player has to give an impromptu presentation on a topic using slides one of the other players is preparing for them. This could be a fun way to practice with friends, although it definitely emphasizes the humor aspect rather than a professional demeanor (though you could set a house rule for trying to take it as seriously as possible and leaning into the unintentional humor that creates?)

    17. Kuddel Daddeldu*

      In my team, we used to do ‘Powerpoint Karaoke’.
      It goes like this:
      1. The MC downloads a few presentations from the Internet. Not in our field; extra points for the slide deck being in a language and script foreign to the participants and the audience, like Georgian or Tamil.
      2. Participant gets 1 minute to go through them (advanced version: no prep at all).
      3. Participant presents.
      4. Hilarity ensues.
      5. Participant becomes the next MC.
      This works surprisingly well to learn how to speak confidently and convincingly without having a clue.

    18. HEllooo*

      I’m a trial lawyer so speaking on the fly is literally my specialty. Something I’ve found helpful is to practice and prepare small topics that may come up a lot – for example a judge is going to ask my how the testimony I’m soliciting isn’t hearsay….I’m always prepared because I’ve practiced the 3-4 possible responses to this. It won’t cover every scenario, but it helps a lot & increases your confidence, which I feel is 75% of effectively speaking without preparation!

    19. Gloucesterina*

      Oh, and this is so simple and random, but just informally discussing topics with friends and colleagues!

    20. Workerbee*

      I have long wondered this too, and am glad you asked.

      Gradually I’ve noticed that among my colleagues, it seems to not matter as much what you say as long as you sound excited and authoritative about it. Many, many hours have been lost with people held captive by someone gushing ideas, going off on tangents, telling stories…

      …I want to learn how to speak on the fly while making actual sense and with good effect.

    21. IL JimP*

      you can try improv, I actually do this with my team sometimes – it doesn’t have to be formal just have someone you trust do an improv exercise with you

    22. Anonymous Koala*

      It might sound weird, but dating actually helped me get a lot better at presenting myself and speaking on the fly. And it was low stakes, which helped build my confidence. Obviously dating isn’t for everyone, but now that things are opening up, what about trying to meet new people through something like bumble BFF? Sometimes meeting people in low stakes situations can really improve your ability to converse about random topics and express yourself succinctly on the fly. Or volunteering events, or hobbies – anything where you meet a lot of people in casual settings.

    23. Maddy*

      McKinsey’a structured thinking. When you get into the habit of key points, it’s such a natural way, when callled to speak or review things.

  2. Office Comfort Items*

    I’ll be returning to work in the office in the next few weeks and am on the market for some items to make it more comfortable than it was before. Any recs would be appreciated!

    First, I am already dreading how cold it always is and that I need to wear shoes again! Any recommendations for slip-on black shoes/sneakers (preferably ones that you can wear with socks)? I want to slip off my shoes under my desk, but be able to slip them on quickly if I need to get up to greet or assist someone. Additionally, are there any foot rests/warmers you’d recommend where you can slip your feet inside them under your desk?

    Second, I don’t have a standing desk, so I am curious if anyone has a quiet elliptical foot pedal exerciser that they’d recommend so I can get in some movement/exercise while sitting at my desk all day. It has to be very quiet, though, since we tend to have open office doors, and I don’t want anyone next door to be able to hear it.

    Lastly, I’m also curious about any other items that make working in the office more comfortable for you. Another item I was potentially thinking of getting is a white noise machine to block out weird noises the office makes, but again, I don’t want anyone nearby to be bothered by this. Thank you!

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      What about a pair of black loafers? They’re quasi professional, but you could conceivably wear socks with them (I’d wear more professional socks rather than something like athletic socks).

      1. RudeRabbit*

        You can find a lot of stylish blanket shawls for relatively cheap. I am currently wearing one I got from Target several years ago and it is awesome.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      I had a heated shawl that I could drape across my legs if I got cold. A heated mouse is something to think about as well.
      I’d also suggest a fitted back cushion for your office chair.

    4. dealing with dragons*

      converse makes slip ons if that’s acceptable to your dress code. fwiw I would wear dressy shoes that weren’t cold appropriate but keep slippers at my desk and I could switch pretty quickly. I also keep a blanket at my desk. A shawl is probably more professional

      1. Forty Years in the Hole*

        Sketchers may also suit your needs, tho’ they tend towards the casual.
        I’ve used a tiny battery operated desktop “zen” fountain at work; you can adjust the noise level by adding/rearranging some small stones to alter the trickle effect. Not all your neighbours may appreciate this special effect though.

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Pedals: I have a Wakeman fitness pedal exerciser that I got at Target (dirt cheap, very low-key, it’s literally just a pair of pedals on a bare-bones stand with a little bit of resistance adjustment, does need a hit of WD-40 every so often but otherwise silent) and a “Stamina InMotion Elliptical Trainer” that I got on Amazon ($109, a little fancier, basically if you face forward you can stand up on it and use it like an elliptical but if you turn it around backwards it lends itself well to seated bike-style pedaling, quiet as long as you keep the little wheels/tracks clean). I use the Wakeman under my desk and the other in my living room, more commonly as an elliptical than as pedals, but I’ve used it both ways. My housemate’s bed is directly under one and his desk is directly under the other, and he says he doesn’t hear anything at all from the Wakeman and very minimal noise from the elliptical. The elliptical does require less vertical clearance than the Wakeman does, if that’s a consideration.

      1. Thursdaysgeek*

        I bought a DeskCycle and like it a lot. It makes no noise that I can hear, and it’s heavy enough that it won’t move around as you pedal. It also has a electronic display that shows how long I’ve been cycling, the distance, speed. It has settings that allow it to run with no resistance up to a lot of resistance.

      2. Hillary*

        I have a Cubii – it was more expensive, but I love the variable resistance and bluetooth connectivity. I’ve found settings for both light intensity during meetings and higher intensity for real cardio, and it updates my apple watch automatically.

        Seven months in it’s still very quiet, my microphone doesn’t pick it up during meetings at all.

    6. rachel in nyc*

      I keep a sweater in my office just in case.

      And actually my office provides most of us small heaters…I use mine for my feet specifically. It has a timer so there isn’t a safety concern (I just make sure that it is set to turn off after a couple of hours, plus I picked one that turns off if it falls on its side.) [And yes, we also have fans. Depending on the season, we need both. And I’ve seen people use both at once.]

    7. AGD*

      Check out CozyWinters for lots of heated foot rests and the like! Mine has been ridiculously helpful.

      1. Chaordic One*

        And radiant heat electric floor mats! So much better than having a space heater under your desk. I’m dreading going back to the office because they don’t allow us to have anything that plugs into an electric outlet and I really like having it in my home office as I work from home.

        I find Cozy Winters to be a bit pricey, but they do have them. You could probably find something similar for a lower price on Amazon.

        You should also consider having thermal insoles in your shoes. They do help a bit.

    8. College Career Counselor*

      Pretty sure Merrell’s makes a black camp shoe/moccasin. My spouse swears by them.

    9. HatBeing*

      I second the loafers! I have a pair of silver ones since I tend to wear black clothes.

    10. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

      I like Skechers and Tom’s for slip-on shoes. Both are very comfortable and don’t pinch my toes or give me ankle blisters, which too many shoes do to my feet. I also have a pair of black slip-on shoes from Levi’s that I really like.

    11. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      As far as shoes go, I think Skechers has a great selection for men and women of stretchy, easy-to-pull on shoes that also look on the dressy side of business casual.

      My office sits on top of an unheated back corridor, and so the floor under my desk is freezing in the winter. And I suffer from poor circulation in my feet. So I got a 2′ square heated carpet square (from Walmart, I think) that did a good job. Take my shoes off, put my socked feet on the square, and they were nice and toasty, especially after a cold 5 block walk from the parking garage.

    12. Chilipepper Attitude*

      I got an electric “shawl.” It looks like something great-grandma would wear but its like a giant heated blanket in a triangle/shawl shape. Really helped me in the cold office.

    13. Retired Prof*

      Don’t know if it would be allowed in your office, but I made this DIY IKEA standing desk (a cheap side table, shelf brackets and a shelf) and put it on my side table next to my desk. I put a monitor on the table and my laptop on the shelf. It was actually more ergonomic than using my laptop on my desk (I have a keyboarding hand disability and the only computer that works for my crippled fingers is a specific laptop). So I could sit or stand depending on how my back was doing.
      https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ikea-standing-desk-hack_n_7033432

      1. New Job So Much Better*

        I found an inexpensive “tray” that stands on legs and use it for a standing desk. Much easier to deal with than raising and lowering the Varidesk, I just sit the tray on my desk and put keyboard and mouse on it. Just Google keyboard tray or stand. Cost about $40.

    14. Artemesia*

      Mug warmer to keep your coffee hot (it works better with a flat bottom cup but if you get the silicon lid to put on the coffee cup, it works fairly well with any mug.).

    15. Annika Hansen*

      How dressy do you have to be? If you are casual and don’t mind the one of the ugliest shoes, the shearing-lined Boston clog is super comfortable and warm. It slips on and off. It’s unisex. They are seriously one of my favorite pandemic purchases.

    16. I'm just here for the cats*

      In the past Sketchers have had some nice-looking slip-on shoes. I have an old pair that I used during the winter so that I wouldn’t have to drag extra shoes with me after walking through the snow with my boots.

    17. Yorick*

      I wear ballet flats with socks that only cover the bottom and sides of the foot. I usually wear black or sort of a nude color socks, partly depending on the shoes.

    18. SaraV*

      For my oddly shaped, ginormous feet, I do love BZees. Super comfortable, and wide enough for my toes. Probably just a smidge on the casual side, but should be fine if your office is business casual.

      1. Kuddel Daddeldu*

        For me, the most comfortable shoe ever is a black leather, “manager style” wingtip safety shoe – complete with kevlar puncture-safe insole and composite toe cap. It does not look much like a safety shoe but fulfills all the ASTM requirements. I can just keep them on when suddenly called out to site and they don’t trigger metal detectors. Not cheap ($100 a pair) but oh so worth it.

    19. Trisha*

      Crocs makes slip on dress shoes in a variety of colours. I find them super comfy and easy slip on/off. If they are a bit big or loose, you can pop them in the dryer for 5 mins (to warm them up), put them on wearing a pair of socks and they will mould well to your feet.

    20. Cooper*

      I picked up a small daylight therapy lamp to put on my desk to combat the soporific effects of office lighting!

    21. Office Comfort Items*

      Thank you for all of your suggestions about shoes and other items, everyone!

  3. Furlough Ghost*

    I just resigned from my furloughed job and will be going into my office next week to return my work laptop and retrieve my stuff from my desk. I know a few of my coworkers will be in the office for me to say goodbye but I think many are still working remotely, are furloughed, or will be taking the week off since it’s the 4th of July holiday. Since I won’t be able to say goodbye to everyone in-person, I was thinking of leaving cards with my best wishes and contact information on their desks for whenever they return. Would that be odd? I know most people would go with email nowadays but I’m mainly worried about the furloughed people; if they end up not coming back, they won’t see their work email ever again but likely will come back to their desk at least for their stuff. Also I was fairly well known in my office for doing thank you cards and holidays cards so I’ve done slightly similar before. What do you think?

    2. Doctor is In*

      That sounds like a very thoughtful idea. Taking the trouble to write a card is rare these days!

    3. lisah*

      I love the idea of getting to my desk to pick up my stuff and getting a card from my colleague. I say go for it.

    4. Bagpuss*

      I think it is a nice gesture and not odd at all. I imagine people will appreciate a personal note.

    5. HatBeing*

      I really like this idea! I saved all the cards and notes I’ve received from c0-workers in the past few years because they were so thoughtful. It’s refreshing to work with people who display care and professionalism.

  4. Gone Girl*

    I am actively getting steamrolled at work by someone who is not on my team and is not my supervisor. We collaborate together often but they’re, say, a teapot builder and I’m more along the lines of the teapot designer. They’re very knowledgeable in their field, and on most projects I appreciate their feedback and insight, but lately it’s gotten out of hand.

    They’ve found their way into all the other project channels, and have proceeded to insist on their personal vision for nearly every project regardless of whether or not it’s in their purview, and more worryingly: talk down the people who actually have the experience and insight on the projects. They’ve told fellow coworkers that they’re work/ideas are unimportant, or that they disagree with their insights and then they’ll proceed to do whatever they think is better (because they’re also the person who ultimately has the power to implement them).

    We’re a young & small company and this person was one of the first hires, so they’re highly valued by our founders and it’s unlikely they’ll be fired. My supervisor is aware of the issue and said they’re working on a solution, but in the meantime, what the heck should I do? Half the time I just wanna “yell” at them in the slack channels to butt out and let us do our jobs because it’s definitely killing morale and the collaboration I’ve really loved about the company so far. Thoughts?

    1. Grace*

      You could try ignore the unsolicited advice when/if you can. If this person has last hands on everything and thus keeps changing the final product, maybe they won’t be able to change *all* the things, or will decide it’s not worth the work to do so. But it’s really, really sucky that they’re telling other people that their work/ideas are unimportant, and that’s definitely worth standing up to.

      1. rachel in nyc*

        I agree. Trying a “Thanks for the suggestion” to their face, and anything you aren’t actually interested in, just gets ignored.

        Probably best if your manager gives approval for that route…

      2. Artemesia*

        If others on your team agree and can come together to forge ahead with their own team decisions and vision then, ‘thanks for the ideas, we’ll think about it’ and then proceed to ignore it might make your day better. Or just dead air; ignore the comments and emails. The real problem comes when the higher ups decide to impose this toad’s ideas on the teams. If that is your problem then your only real option is to leave.

      3. Teapot supervisor*

        Agree that ignoring is probably preferably where possible, although agree with Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain that you could probably also call out the ruder instances.

        You have my condolences though. Work with one or two people who I have to do a lot of virtual smiling and nodding with and a lot of holding back from saying “Uh huh, yep, sure, I mean, I’m NOT going to do that because of about 50 reasons, half of which are big picture management stuff it’s not even appropriate to tell you about, but, sure, you go on thinking it’s ok for you to tell me how to do my job. That really warms me to your suggestions.”

    2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      “That’s a rude thing to say Steve and uncalled for. We are all professionals here.” Look him dead in the eye and let any silence hang. Also do this when he says it to others, not just you. If you do it for them, they might return the favor. I’ve had coworkers come up to me to thank me for having their back when another person is insulting or steamrolling them; so often everyone else stays silent and looks away.

      I also agree with Grace, ignore his suggestions if you can for the most part.

      The third thing is that this will eventually cause highly qualified people to leave. I suggest you look at your options.

      1. tamarack and fireweed*

        Yup, seconding that. A three-pronged approach:

        – Direct, calm, challenging of the overall style, especially when the target is the coworker standing next to you (or equiv. in Slack/group chat) “It is not cool to call any of our work unimportant. You need to knock this off.”
        – Turning to stone when he targets you. (“Interesting. Thanks. Well, ok, back to work now I guess…”)
        – Making a very strong case with the powers that be that this needs serious reining in as it threatens the ability of the company to retain qualified contributors other than him.

    3. Anhaga*

      Can you or someone with the right admin privileges make Slack channels private to only the teams working on them? That is a simple way to keep out people who are not part of a project, though it can be a bit inconvenient to have to manually add anyone who is part of the project. They can also, very simply, be removed from channels where they have no business being.

      Overall, though, someone with power over them needs to tell them to stop and stop now. Anyone who’s essentially a peer probably won’t be able to make their lines stick unless there’s a higher up person backing them.

      What does “working on a solution” mean in this context? Is your supervisor/this person’s supervisor unwilling to simply tell them that the behavior is unacceptable and obnoxious?

    4. Feedback Falcon*

      What if you proactively set aside time to hear their feedback? In the moment when they provide unsolicited input, you could say “Since I am / my team is currently in the middle of this project and changing things as we go, we’re hoping to hold off on receiving immediate input. Would you mind holding off on making changes until you see the next version/draft?” Then, you could set aside time to chat and hear their feedback.

      Following that, you could say “I really appreciate your insight and experience here, and it’s genuinely valuable. However, it’s hard to hear input from just one source all the time, and sometimes your expertise seems to inadvertently shut down others’ ideas. Would you be willing to give the newer colleagues some latitude with their ideas, so they can prove themselves too?” (This wording is intentionally generous, to try to retain a positive relationship with someone who is valued in the company and at a higher level.)

      Ultimately they may not change their approach, but giving them this feedback and turning it into “letting other people prove themselves the way you did” could be useful. Of course, I would not suggest doing any of the above without your managers’ go-ahead.

    5. Bagpuss*

      I agree with Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain.

      Also – we don’t use Slack at work – is it possible to make private groups so you can make a group / conversation that he can’t see / isn’t invited to, or only invite him to that specific chat if and when his input is needed

      Failing that is it worth using different methods of communication/collaboration for projects his input isn’t needed on? It won’t solve the problem but might cut down on the number of incidents.

    6. LKW*

      Have you tried the “Yes, but” approach. It’s annoying and it can be a pain to execute but it might save your tush. In short, every time he butts in someone says “Yes, that is something that could work. BUT….” and then throw in the appropriate next statement:
      1. How does this solution prevent this thing that we know will happen because of our experience?
      2. How does this solution deliver more than this approach that we’ve designed? Will it save more money, make things faster, improve quality, etc. How?”

      The first lays out the known risks and asks him to either define how his solution will deliver without that risk and the second asks to clarify the business case so that business resources are wisely used. When documented, it saves a bit of time saying “you made the push for this even though we told you what would happen.”

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Tell the offending person you are available by email and all “suggestions” should be in email.
      Then forward the suggestions to your boss(es).

      AND/OR

      If you notice that he is doing this to mostly women, file a formal complaint. If they don’t have a system for that, tell them they need one because you are filing a complaint.

      The fact that it’s unlikely this person will be fired telegraphs that it’s unlikely this situation will be changed. As a parallel, if someone moves in to my house and after a bit becomes convinced they own my house there is little that will change that. The only answer is to kick them out.
      Your person here is acting like they own the company. They have been there too long or they have let all the praise go to their head or someone else isn’t doing their job or whatever.

      Always remember that this situation is happening because the owners have allowed it to build and build unchecked.
      If your boss is not an owner then your boss should be discussing this frequently with the owners until the situation is resolved. Your boss should be able to tell you how to handle things in the interim. It’s kind of scary that your boss is not helping you with this.

      Where I land with all this is for immediate purposes, I would tell this person that all their suggestions have to be in email and you will be seeking approval from TPTB before you make any changes. Try to make their suggestion process as encumbered and burdensome as possible. Let your boss know what you are doing and why you are doing it.

    8. LabTechNoMore*

      Been there. Small company thing might help – can you raise the issue directly with the founder? Alternatively if founders prove to be ineffective, I like the idea someone said above of just making a group chat that includes all the members of your team and not the Know-it-all Coworker. That will at least reduce the frequency of unsolicited advice. Also if they find a way to interject further, a more blunt “It’s nice of you to offer to advice, but we’re going to go the [MyIdea] route for this project.” Later adding “If we need your help, I’ll reach out but otherwise there’s no need for your feedback on [Dept] projects going forward.”

      Depending on the level of obnoxiousness of this coworker, they may go ballistic on you, outright refuse to collaborate for things you actually need from them, or go running to the founders and try to get you in trouble. So make a point of documenting their previous issues including brief, succinct commentary on how wrong their idea is. Chances are you’re going to have to involve management sooner or later, so make sure you have your ducks in a row and be ready to raise any further uncooperativeness from them after having The Conversation.

  5. Legally a Vacuum*

    When we get on the phone with our Beijing team, they are operating at about 12 hour difference. We typically say “good morning”/whatever is appropriate for their time zone when we get on the line. We’re adding a team in the UK to calls- do we need to have a temporally appropriate greeting for each team?

    1. Chilipepper Attitude*

      Hello to everyone in all the time zones?
      Greetings to all!
      Welcome to the meeting
      Good afternoon, good evening, and good night!

        1. Esmeralda*

          Beijing office, good morning!
          London office, good evening!

          Just do them in turn quickly.

    3. londonedit*

      I wouldn’t say you *need* to, but if you’re specifically saying ‘Good morning to the Beijing team’ then it would make sense to say ‘…and good afternoon to the UK’ or whatever. Otherwise if it’s all becoming a bit clunky then you could maybe just change the whole thing and say ‘Welcome, everyone’ or something else that doesn’t reference a particular time of day.

      1. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

        This makes me think of Eurovision, when the hosts open with “Good evening, Europe! Good morning, Australia!”

    4. MechanicalPencil*

      Can you just do a generic “Hello everyone” or something less time fraught?

      1. Legally a Vacuum*

        My boss likes each team to be individually acknowledged. I think I’m just going to go with “Hello Beijing team, hello UK team.”

    5. Malarkey01*

      I typically say “Good day” with our time zone calls. I don’t think it’s a big deal but when people say Good morning or Good afternoon we hear the jokes of haha it’s dinner time here or hahah not morning for us and to just avoid that stale joke over and over Good day or Hello today seems to work. It’s pretty low stakes though.

    6. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Oh, I’d flip it around the other way. Make the greeting appropriate to *your* time zone, and everyone else can mentally translate. Plus it’s a reminder to them about where you are in the cycle.

    7. Your friendly neighborhood Zen Buddhist*

      What do you do after your dream dies?

      I changed careers recently from my “dream” career that I got my two degrees in and found a lot of purpose in. However, it wasn’t really a “dream” after awhile (last job was pretty terrible) and I’m not sure I’d ever want to go back. Now I’m working in a better paying, much more stable job and feeling a bit lost. Has anyone ever gone through something similar?

      2. OneFishTwoFish*

        You dare to dream again.

        I think there’s this common idea of the dream job, dream this, dream that, and we think of it as being something singular. But we can have more than one dream, or we can have new dreams entirely. I think we’re conditioned to think that letting go of a dream is failing, but it isn’t! I think changing dreams can lead to a bit of a grieving process in a way. You may feel that because you are doing something else, the two degrees and the previous career are for not, but I’d encourage you to try to see it differently. Your dream doesn’t have to die for it to evolve. Maybe it changes for a time, maybe it changes permanently, but that’s okay and can even be a positive. I don’t know if that’s helpful at all and perhaps I’ve missed the mark, but there is something to be said for better pay and stability and perhaps you can reflect on how those two things can help you achieve new dreams.

      3. Donkey Hotey*

        Sorry about the nest fail.
        I have a friend who wanted to do X job for many, many years. Finally got her chance, quit her job, went to school, passed with flying colors, got the job and absolutely hated it within six months.
        She had a party. We all came dressed as “what we wanted to be when we grew up.” Plenty of ballerinas, doctors, etc. There wasn’t a single person there who was actively doing what they wanted to be when they were little.
        She had a good laugh and went back to her old job.
        Good luck!

    8. middle name danger*

      My company’s international calls usually open with “Good afternoon! Well, or good morning if it’s morning for you!”

    9. Brett*

      We have a lot of international calls in my line of work. We just use “Good morning, good afternoon, good evening” as a default greeting regardless of what countries are actually on the call.

      1. Two Dog Night*

        Same here. It’s quick and inclusive, and it’s easier than thinking about who exactly is in which zone.

    10. Applesauced*

      Is your boss from The Truman Show?
      “Good morning, and in case I don’t see ya, good afternoon, good evening, and good night!”

    11. Bagpuss*

      Good Day might work, rather than trying to have a different one for each set of people

  6. Chidi Has a Stomach Ache*

    I’m newish here – how long should I wait after submitting a question by email before it’s safe to bring it up in this thread?

    1. Monty & Millie's Mom*

      I think it varies. I’d give it a couple weeks at least, though. And even if you bring it up here and Alison answers the question later, you’ve basically gotten the comments before the letter response, which isn’t necessarily a BAD thing (although I always like to see both the letter AND Alison’s response, and respond to the thing as a whole, but depending on the question, it might not matter. Like, do you want an expert opinion, or are you crowdsourcing some ideas? If that matters for the question you’re asking.)

    2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I don’t think Alison has given a hard time frame. I would wait a few weeks — if it’s been a month, it’s probably not in Alison’s queue to answer.

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        I’ve actually answered things months later. A lot of them! I have stuff in my definitely-answer queue right now that’s been there for months. There’s just too much volume to answer it all in a timely way.

        But I ask that you wait at least 3 weeks; I know it’s not reasonable to ask people to wait longer than that, especially when it may not be published at all. But if you want, you can always email me to ask if it’s in my to-definitely-answer queue.

        (Also to the other comment, above, I don’t publish questions that I saw were already on an open thread because it feels like 2 bites at the apple when there are so many others that don’t get answered at all. So ideally pick one or the other!)

        1. Chidi Has a Stomach Ache*

          Okay, thanks! I’ll hold off a little longer, I think it’s been about 3 weeks, but my question wasn’t super-urgent.

  7. Navigating Video Interviews While Working*

    I’m one of a handful of people working out of our office that used to hold over 300 people. It’s a ghost town. A recruiter recently reached out to me about a great sounding position. I did my phone screen with him in my car on my lunch break. The first video interview that I did with the company, I also did in my car, on my cell phone, on my lunch break. For the second interview, it was raining so hard that I was concerned that the sound quality would be an issue, so I booked a conference room on a floor more deserted than mine and did the video interview on my phone from there.
    I feel weird about that last one. Is there a better way that I should have handled this?

    1. Legally a Vacuum*

      My office has quiet rooms for single-occupancy phone calls and similar- if your office has anything like that I think it’s preferable.

    2. NotMyRealName*

      Would you have felt ok with booking the room to have a quiet lunch with a colleague? I think it’s fine, you weren’t using space that was needed for anything else.

    4. An American(ish) Werewolf in London*

      I’d be happy doing what you did, and back in the dim and distant past, I’ve done similar – especially as (being in the UK) I haven’t typically driven to work (so don’t have a car to retreat into).

      My view is what you did is fine – if someone else had needed the room that would be a different story, but if it was truly surplus to other requirements at the time you had your call, I think you’re all good. But your mileage may vary.

    5. Massive Dynamic*

      HAHAAHA you just reminded me of something – I used to do phone interviews while pumping. I’d throw my jacket and bag over the pump to muffle the sound. Ended up landing a fantastic job! You gotta do what you gotta do sometimes; you’re still entitled to a break after all.

    6. Wry*

      I think you handled it fine, and I think I also would have felt weird about it. That doesn’t mean you did anything wrong; job searching when you are employed sometimes leads to unavoidable weirdness, whether it’s ducking out during work hours to answer an unexpected call from a company, slipping out during your lunch break to interview, or similar. I can see why you felt weird about doing an interview on company property, but it was your lunch break and you didn’t really have another option. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do!

    7. Epsilon Delta*

      Are video interviews going to become a new normal, even post-everyones-back-in-the-office? Because this sounds potentially onerous and difficult for people who are employed and not working from home :(

      1. I'm just here for the cats*

        I think that video calls will be offered more as an option, but I don’t see in-person interviews going away completely.

        However, depending on how far you live from home you could possibly just take a long lunch or something and go home for your video interview. Or come in late/leave early. Just like you would do if you were working in the office and had an in-person interview.

      2. I take tea*

        I actually think that it might be easier to sneak in a video interview discreetly, as you don’t have to count in time to get to and from the place. Of course you have to find a good spot for it, which can be hard in some places. But if there is an unused conference room, I think it’s ok to use it.

    8. coffeeklatch*

      You might see if there’s a public library or other space near you where you could book a study/private room for these. I once had an interview on a day I unexpectedly had to travel from NYC to Boston for a funeral. I ended up finding a bunch of these rooms along the way and when I had a sense of timing I booked on and it worked great for the situation.

    9. Wordybird*

      I think you did just fine. I have done interviews from my car in my job’s parking lot, in the local library’s quiet rooms, in my parents’ driveway… you gotta do what you gotta do!

  8. lisah*

    My company is going through an “integration” with our parent company and that’s led to lots of us looking for new jobs. I have A LOT of questions about & opinions of this whole situation but the question that came up on my team this morning was “what do you make of job applications that ask questions about your race, ethnic identity, sexual orientation, etc.?” We were looking at a posting today that asked for your age range and socio-economic class.

    I *think* some of these questions are required by law to ensure fairness in hiring practices but people on my team are worried their answers will be used against them. What are your thoughts?

      1. AndersonDarling*

        An I understand that employers are required to ask those questions in the US.

        1. D3*

          No they are not.
          SOME employers might be – for example if they are federal contractors the contract might require them to report on their numbers of applicants, interviewees and those hired.
          But it’s not a blanket all-employers-must-ask-these-questions situation

    2. Malarkey01*

      I cannot speak for every organization, but in mine the answers to those questions are kept completely separate from the hiring information and aren’t linked. HR will know that the applications are 60% women, 35% men, 5% non-gendered or prefer not to say- but the data doesn’t say which applicants are which. The same for age, ethnicity and race information. We do track it to make sure our announcements aren’t targeting/restricting specific demographics adjusted for field anomalies.

    3. Golden*

      I’ve seen race and disability status (the second of which I was always unsure about answering due to advice not to disclose it until you had an offer), but never age or socioeconomic status.

      That seems to leave out a lot of nuance, such as someone who grew up very disadvantaged but is wealthy in adulthood or vice versa. I’m not sure how that info would be used effectively but am curious to know if its becoming more common.

    4. (Former) HR Expat*

      Race, disability status, and veteran status are pretty standard EEO questions, but they’re required to be stored separately and are not shared during the hiring process. Socio-economic class, gender identity and all the others are a bit out there, and I would wonder why the company is asking for that information. The only information I want for socio-economic status relates to the Work Opportunity Tax Credit, but it’s usually not information that is mentioned in the posting itself, but more as a question at the same time as the EEO stuff (and not shared).

      1. tamarack and fireweed*

        My organization (a public university) asks some of these questions, but it is clear they are not shared with the hiring committees. I think it would be perfectly fine to contact the HR department and say you’re interested in some positions they posted and have started the online application, but you have a question about the EEO-style section. Keeping it light and friendly, not demanding and offended.

        There are also cases where people think that their answers would uniquely identify them (employers: don’t do that! keep the categories large enough to do actual statistics!) and people in this situation have made a case for change but a) this is not going to work immediately for the application in question and b) it’s much more likely to work once you’re employed. Employers who are sincerely concerned about collecting stats to help them with diversifying their workforce typically will be sensitive to this, though it is tiring for, like, the only indigenous woman who is currently applying to project management jobs in [some industry or other] in [country] to have to repeatedly deal with this stuff.

        This is not the case for me, though. So once I know that these are not going to the hiring committee, I usually fill them in with no concern.

    5. Chauncy Gardener*

      I have never seen sexual orientation, socio-economic class or age range. I have been hiring and managing people for over 30 years and would never even think to ask those questions!! I’m no lawyer, but I would think this is along the lines of asking your marital and procreation plans
      Are you in the US? I really don’t think they questions are legal here, but like I said, not a lawyer

      1. lisah*

        I am in the US and the socio-economic and age question was in a job application for a remote job for a company hq’ed in NY. Like I said, answering the questions aren’t required so I don’t think there’s a legal issue (although am also Not a Lawyer).

        1. HelenofWhat*

          It’s possible the company is trying to gather more detailed data about the diversity of their applicant pool. I’ve seen sexual orientation in the mix for organizations who want to account for that kind of diversity, so that they can show they’re attracting a range of applicants. It’s also helpful to compare to the survey responses you get from employees during culture/diversity feedback (which is also anonymous).
          And if they’re using a real application system (Greenhouse, Lever, Workday, Taleo, etc – not like a Google form) then all this data goes to an aggregate report, and isn’t linked to an application on the backend. The application only shows the actual application materials. EEO data is entirely separate. The recruiter won’t be able to see that you chose X race, or Y gender, etc.

  9. Carrots*

    I work with “Wakeen”. (He is senior to me, but we both have the same boss.) Wakeen will be super nice to everyone. He greets them and will be his charming self to literally everyone. He ignores me/treats me as if I’m invisible around other people. (He wouldn’t even say Happy Birthday to me on my birthday, while everyone else did.) When I’m absent, he gives me the cold shoulder/silent treatment for being gone.

    When it’s just the two of us, however, Wakeen can be very social and friendly. It’s very confusing! He’s like a totally different person. I don’t get it.

    However, when he’s stressed, he uses me as his proverbial punching bag. My job is to place orders. I placed some big orders and Wakeen is in charge of receiving these orders. He freaked out and called me up screaming, “Where am I supposed to put all of these orders?”

    I was very quiet. A few minutes later he called back and he was a lot calmer.

    I think that he might be job searching/looking to leave his position because he was telling us how he can’t handle the stress of the job, it’s too much, etc. (It’s hard to tell because he said the same thing last year, so I don’t know.)

    The bad part? We’re understaffed already so we would all have to take on some of his duties.

    I’m looking to leave to escape all of this, but until I can, any words of advice for dealing with someone like Wakeen? Have you ever worked with someone like this? What did you do? How did you not let it affect you?

    1. sdfsd*

      I’ve worked with someone similar. For whatever reason, Wakeen doesnt want to interact with you, but when your alone and he wants interaction he talks to you. It’s hard not to take it personally when you see they treat other people differently than you. I just kept on doing my best to be friendly to them, and chug on with my day. If hes really being disrespectful or rude, like next time he screams or uses a loud voice, maybe respond “It sounds like your yelling, is everything OK?”. Make it clear that you notice the tone, but try to keep it polite and friendly.

      1. Aquawoman*

        It’s also okay to be more direct than that and tell him that you are willing to discuss the issue but will not tolerate being yelled at/only in a professional way.

    2. Juneybug*

      Here are some suggestions –
      1. Wakeen is nice to everyone but me.
      You are using more energy than Wakeen for this relationship. Yes, it hurts when someone is rude/immature, but don’t forget you don’t need his “friendship”. You only need him to be civil at work. So I would suggest you grey rock him (be polite/civil, uninterested in his drama, and care much less about a friendship with him).
      2. He uses me as his proverbial punching bag.
      Noooo my friend, do not let him abuse you! When he screams, tell him in a calm manner that he needs to speak to you as a professional. Hang up if he does not calm down. Repeat as necessary.
      3. Wakeen calms down when he calls back after his blow-up.
      Have you noticed that he doesn’t apologize for his behavior? Have you noticed that he blames you for the workload (which you have no control over)? These are signs of abuse.
      Next time, he calls back after he blows up, ask him if he’s calling to apologize. Not because he’s allowed to continue this behavior (blow up at you and then be calm) but because he needs to be called out on his behavior.
      If these steps do not resolve these issues, let your boss know. I understand that you want to fix this yourself, you might be embarrassed or feel shame, or feel like you are whining to your boss but trust me, your boss would want to know when their employee is being abused.
      4. Wakeen might be job hunting and we are understaffed.
      Your boss needs to worry about being understaffed, not you. If Wakeen leaves, you might find out that his duties are not as time consuming as your originally thought. And his replacement might be a rock star who is mature and professional. If Wakeen mentions looking for another job, smile and wish him good luck.
      5. How to deal with Wakeen.
      Care less. Use this situation to reflect on what you would do better as a supervisor. Take classes to improve your skills. Develop stronger work relationships with others, both inside and outside of your department.
      Good luck!

      1. LKW*

        All of this.

        Wakeen is immature. Period. These are just toddler-like behaviors. So treat him like you would a toddler. “Hi Joe! Hi Wakeen! – Wakeen? Are you ok? Are you not talking to me? OK Wakeen, I’m sure you’ll talk to me when you’re feeling better.” “Wakeen, do not yell at me. We do not yell at work. Please call me when you have calmed down.”

  10. DrunkAtAWedding*

    Can you fire someone for having an affair with your spouse?

    I’ve seen that situation discussed a few times on the Internet, and the general debate seems to whether it would be fair – since it didn’t happen at work – vs the fact it would be very difficult to work with that person in the future. I did Google a bit but couldn’t find anything specific. I did learn that, in many US states, people can be fired for dating coworkers, and this seems like a similar – but worse – situation, in terms of causing interpersonal issues.

    1. No Tribble At All*

      In most US states, you can be fired at any time for any non-discriminatory reason, unless your contract specifically says otherwise (if you’re in a union). So if you’re asking if legally you *can* then I think the answer is yes.

      If you’re asking *should* you…. yeah I probably would!

      1. Cthulhu's Librarian*

        You don’t necessarily have to be in a union to have a contract, though that is where they are most common. Executives will sometimes have them as well.

    2. Reba*

      Sure, you can fire someone for wearing a blue shirt you didn’t like. (In most parts of the US)

      It would be best if the affected party/spouse recused themselves from the process. But, yeah, I think the spouse saying “I can’t work with this person anymore because they are part of a very painful life episode, so it’s them or me” would be reason enough to reassign or fire the other person, presuming the business values the spouse more highly.

      The morality or whatever doesn’t need to enter into it! Tbc I don’t think people should be fired over how they conduct their personal lives. It’s the impact on the rest of the workplace that makes it more reasonable grounds.

      1. DrunkAtAWedding*

        In one anecdote I saw, the person cheated on was the CEO/owner, which made it a lot trickier since the buck stopped with him.

          1. DrunkAtAWedding*

            The anecdote I read was written by the son of the previous owner, who had inherited the company along with the manager who’d broken up his parent’s marriage. Iirc, it had reached the point where the manager thought he could get away with murder and the Op wanted to fire him for work behaviour but was worried that it would look petty or retaliatory. Some comments questioned why the guy hadn’t been let go years ago, when he had an affair with the previous owner’s wife, while others were convinced that firing him for that reason would not have been acceptable.

            Like anything written by anonymous strangers on the Internet, it might not have really happened. That doesn’t really matter to me though. That scenario could plausibly happen, and I was interested in what you could actually do in that situation. Especially when I read another anecdote elsewhere from a manager whose partner had had an affair with a coworker.

            I was pretty sure that you could tell the company that it was difficult to work with that person, and they could move people to different teams or let someone go, but it seems much harder if you’re the top boss. Some people were so sure you couldn’t fire someone in that situation that I wondered if they were right. For all I know, there might, for example, be laws based around not firing someone for their personal relationships, aimed at protecting the queer community but written broadly enough to protect someone in this scenario. The stories I read were based in the US, but I’m in the UK. I am interested in how that would play out here, but I know most readers are in the US and were more likely to have practical knowledge or experience based there.

            1. Observer*

              In the US, there would be absolutely no problem in letting the guy go in 49 states, outside of things like union contracts.

              I’d be interested to know if the UK labor laws would protect the guy (assuming he actually was god at his job, which doesn’t seem like he is.)

    3. I'm that guy*

      Many (most?) states people are hired at will. Meaning that they can be fired for any reason that isn’t specifically illegal (like race, gender or age). So yes someone can be fired for having an affair. They can also be fired for earing greens shoes or for no reason at all.

    4. Person from the Resume*

      Legally, yes (in the US).

      Ethically, yes, too. It is totally appropriate to say that you can’t manage an employee who contributed to such a personal betrayal of you.

      Should you blame the employee more than your spouse? No. Your spouse cheated on you. The employee didn’t make that same commitment to you. Actually it’s not really fair to forgive your spouse and try to work it out with them while holding a grudge against the affair partner and bad mouthing and blaming them.

      But having the inability to fairly manage someone who contributed to a painful event for you is a good enough reason to fire someone IMO. “I can’t work with you.” It would nice/kind to fire them tell them not to come back and pay them their final two weeks or a severance to go away fast.

    5. Llellayena*

      Yep, and I would. However, my next advice falls under the “be the better person” category. I’d recommend specifically stating that you will not fight unemployment and will give a recommendation that will reflect ONLY their professional achievements, not any of the personal issues. The idea being that while you can’t work with them due to the personal issues, their actions do not reflect how they would work with someone else. I’m not discounting the hurt and desire to make them hurt, but it’s better to err on the professional side.

      1. Hillary*

        I believe in most states this would not be considered “for cause” and the fired person would be eligible regardless. I once heard this from an acquaintance who was an unemployment judge: Why were you fired? I punched the boss. Why did you punch him? He was sleeping with my wife. Not work related, eligible for unemployment.

    6. Falling Diphthong*

      • In the US, yes, usually.

      • The military has some rules about no affairs with your coworkers or their spouses because when command says “Charge that hill!” they don’t want the troops to be thinking “This is because Command is banging Bert’s wife and he wants to get rid of Bert. We should mutiny.” (See David and Bathsheba for historical antecedent.) In most offices the stakes are lower than life and death, but still, people suspect underlying non-work reasons for work decisions based on the known canoodlings or rage about canoodlings. It’s bad for morale.

      • You can’t fire your boss for having an affair with your spouse.

      1. LKW*

        You might be able to expose the situation and make it embarrassing for the company to retain the boss.

    7. Wry*

      Assuming we’re talking about at-will employment, which is the case in the vast majority of the US, then as others have said, you can be fired for any reason, legally, as long as the firing doesn’t constitute discrimination against a legally protected identity. So in the situation you’re describing, it would absolutely be legal. I would also argue that it is perfectly fair. Just because something didn’t happen at work doesn’t mean that it doesn’t affect the workplace. Consider: if a coworker physically assaulted you or another employee somewhere outside the workplace and outside work hours, would it be reasonable to fire them? Of course. Could the assaulter and assaultee really be expected to work together in a collegial manner after something like that? I don’t see how an affair with a coworker’s spouse (or manager’s, as I think you might be describing?) is any different. The person who had the affair is responsible for creating a negative work environment and making it so that the spouse of the person with whom they had the affair cannot reasonably be expected to work with them or manage them or whatever the situation might be.

      1. Observer*

        if a coworker physically assaulted you or another employee somewhere outside the workplace and outside work hours, would it be reasonable to fire them? Of course.

        Totally agreed. But I realized that this is the mistake at the heart of the question. There have been a number of questions here over the years about “How could my boss fire me for getting into a fight / punching someone / acting a first class jerk / some other terrible behavior when I was off the clock?!?!”

      2. tamarack and fireweed*

        In countries where a firing would not be legal – I’ve been brought up in one, and my intuition of what’s right and wrong in the workplace has been shaped in the sense that this would not be fair – the argument usually goes that if the behavior in question isn’t illegal, and doesn’t bring the company into disrepute then it shouldn’t be grounds for discipline/termination. And people have the right to arrange consensual relationships as they please, even though this frequently creates heartache and family upheaval among those who are rejected.

    8. AcademiaNut*

      I can’t imagine someone having an affair with their boss’s spouse and expecting to stay employed afterwards!

      I’d say it’s less like dating, and more like supervising a family member or romantic partner. You can’t supervise your spouse, you generally can’t supervise your ex-spouse, and you can’t supervise your spouse’s other partners, if they have them. So you can’t supervise your spouse’s affair partner either. As far as firing goes – the cheating employee started a relationship within a managerial chain and didn’t inform the employer about it. If it had been a consensual polyamorous relationship, for example, they would need to inform the employer so that they could be shifted to a new manager (or not start the relationship in the first place!). So I would say they could be ethically fired for that part alone, without the cheating being the focus.

      I’d say it’s rather hypocritical to fire the employee and stay married to the spouse, but also an entirely normal and predictable reaction (like the cheated-on spouse staying married, and dumping all the blame on the affair partner).

    9. Observer*

      whether it would be fair – since it didn’t happen at work

      That’s a fundamental mistake. It’s fine to take what people do in their own time into consideration when making hiring / firing decisions. Of course, there should be limits to that, but that’s more around “I don’t like who Chris voted for” kinds of things.

  11. Question about word choice*

    I am trying to find a more modern term for “homemaker” that would be inclusive of not only stay-at-home parents and caregivers, but also people who may be doing domestic labor at home without kids or dependents. This is for an employment status question on a survey. Any suggestions or thoughts?

    1. Malarkey01*

      Not employed? Or Not seeking employment? Not sure if you’re trying to grab specific data on why people are not working but all of us are doing domestic labor- some more robustly if there are kids, elderly care, etc going on.

      Stay at home parents had a little differentiation since in can mean that it’s more of a temporary measure while children are young or that it’s more circumstance driven than choice.

        1. Question about word choice*

          There is some concern about people misreading/misinterpreting “Not employed outside the home” and thinking it would apply to them because they are now WFH full-time or most of the time. It may seem like an obvious distinction to some of us but there is always room for confusion with these things. But I have been playing around with this phrase as well.

    2. Reba*

      Homemaker covers that. At least to me, it doesn’t necessarily imply parenting. It is perhaps a bit dated, but I’m not aware of a good alternate.

      Maybe consider “stay-at-home” without parent on the end? But people are so used to SAHM or -P that it would probably be read that way even if you leave those off.

      (It is interesting that although homemaker is not strictly gender-marked term, all the synonyms that come up for it seem to have “wife” or “woman” in them)

      1. Mental Lentil*

        When I looked it up, Merriam-Webster suggested that two synonyms were “housewife” and “henhussy”. It is very dated.

        I vote for “stay at home professional.”

        2. Annie Moose*

          “Stay at home professional” makes it sound like they’re employed and just working remotely. Being a homemaker or fulltime caregiver isn’t really a profession.

          1. Question about word choice*

            I agree with what you are saying.

            While we want to be as inclusive as possible, there has to be some compromise on whatever we end up using. Of course, a stay-at-home parent or homemaker or whatever would be technically unemployed, but is that really the label they are using? I’m not sure. It’s something I haven’t thought about before!

            1. AcademiaNut*

              You could cover it with two questions
              – employed outside the home y/n
              – actively seeking paid work y/n

              “Unemployed”, in statistics, only counts people actively looking for work.

          1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

            I shouldn’t laugh, but I totally guffawed on that one! So bad…

          2. Metadata minion*

            “Hussy” was originally short for “housewife” — the meaning has drifted significantly.

            1. armchairexpert*

              And slut meant a slovenly woman/poor housekeeper. So you could literally either be a hussy or a slut.

        4. Falling Diphthong*

          Or we could go the other way and try to make “chicken hustler” (the gender neutral variation) catch on.

          1. Clare*

            Okay I know Alison says not to put SAHP on resume but I wish I could put “chicken hustler”

        6. Dark Macadamia*

          No, because they’re not in a profession. I think this would come across similar to “domestic engineer” or “CEO of Smith Family, Inc.”

          I don’t love checking “Unemployed” but it’s an accurate, neutral description of my employment status and way less outdated/icky sounding than “Homemaker” lol

          1. Reba*

            Good point, I suppose it’s a bit of choose-your-stigma between unemployment and feminized carework. “Unemployed” at least is not a euphemism!

        9. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Out of linguistic curiosity, what’s the publication date of that dictionary?
          (It’s not in the Web edition, not even flagged as archaic.)

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I don’t personally think “homemaker” excludes people without kids or dependents? In fact, I’d appreciate the fact that the term doesn’t automatically lead to assuming kids/dependents the way that “stay-at-home parents and caregivers” do.

      1. Question about word choice*

        After thinking about this over the past few days, I like the term too, but others have raised concerns about it being outdated so I am trying to see what alternatives I can offer.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          I like homemaker, in part because all the “at home” things might be confusing when people are doing paid work inside their homes, which is now quite common.

          “Not employed, not looking” I guess covers those who do no homemaking and instead outsource that with their investment income, but that seems quite narrow.

          1. Question about word choice*

            There’s so much gray area, but someone identifying as a “Homemaker” feels like a more deliberate choice. If they are “not employed, not looking,” maybe they’re unemployed because of the pandemic and have stopped looking for now because of scant opportunities/stress/other things. I appreciate the suggestion though — it’s one I have been keeping on my potential list of replacements.

            1. Filosofickle*

              You’re wise to be looking for the least loaded, least wrong way to say this! I agree that their intent does matter in the framing, emotionally if not factually. While technically a homemaker is not employed *for direct pay*, a person who sees taking care of things at home and socially as a deliberate choice may not think of themselves as “unemployed”. They may bristle at the term and not even identify with it, which will influence the results and engagement you get in your survey. They do provide work, they are engaged in an activity, it just doesn’t happen to come with a paycheck. That’s tricky to describe.

            2. allathian*

              Unemployed only includes those who are actively looking for employment. So “not employed, not looking” would work.

              “Domestic labor in the home” might work as a way to differentiate from those who are WFH for an employer, but without specifying exactly what that domestic labor consists of, so it can be a homemaker, SAHP, or full-time caregiver of an elderly or disabled relative, etc.

              The thing is, though, that if you want an option that covers a lot of alternatives, you can’t be too specific at the same time about the reasons why someone’s doing something. So “not employed, not looking” includes both those who have intentionally chosen to stay at home without outside employment and those who have been forced into it for lack of suitable employment and who’ve simply given up looking for work.

        2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Understandable. The other thing is, you want to make sure it’s clear to the people reading your survey – as you pointed out up-thread, things like “not employed outside the home” have room for interpretation, and I think if your survey offered me the option of “henhussy” I’d close it out and not finish, because WTF are these people even ON :) (Not, of course, that I think you would go that route.)

          “Outdated” does come with a little bit of “people know generally what it means because it’s been around forever.”

          1. Question about word choice*

            Good point! And maybe it’s “outdated” but I don’t think it’s offensive or has terribly negative connotations. If people saw “Homemaker” on the list of options, they would have a pretty good idea what we meant.

          2. Falling Diphthong*

            That’s a good point about the possible benefits of “outdated.” (See the earlier discussion of how you tell your older bosses that the new program’s innocently made-up name is a euphemism for genitalia amidst the youth.) If it’s the old way of phrasing it, most respondents probably know what you mean. (Whereas “henhussy” would throw them, and many would assume you meant urban chicken keeping.)

            “Not employed outside the home” I automatically think “Yup, freelancer, I work from my home, that’s me right there.”

      2. Pocket Mouse*

        Exactly. To me, ‘homemaker’ is exactly what you’re looking for, meaning someone who does domestic work at home.

    4. 12312312*

      Not sure if this fits what your going for – but what about just Unemployed, and you could use “Not Currently Employed by Choice” and “Unemployed but seeking work”. or something.

      1. Lord Peter Wimsey*

        This makes sense, particularly if it matters to the survey whether the work status is voluntary. The “official” terms (used by the BLS for example in the US) would be “Unemployed” (meaning not working but wanting to work/ currently looking for work) and “Not in the labor force” (meaning retired, homemaker, etc. — not working and not wanting to/looking for work).

        1. green beans*

          Yup. If I was doing a survey and needed to differentiate, I would put
          [relevant employed options]
          Unemployed, looking for work
          Unemployed, not looking for work
          Retired

          it’s neutral, and gives the information you’re looking for. If you need more information, you could have a redirect to
          “Why are you not looking for work at this time?”
          Acting as stay-at-home parent/guardian, caregiver, or homemaker
          Unable to work to disability or other extenuating circumstances
          Financially secure without a job
          Other

          for those who select unemployed, not looking

    5. GoryDetails*

      Heh. I rather like the idea of “homemaker” being… rebranded?… to include all the variations you describe. Indeed, I could use it that way myself (though “home-procrastinator” might be more accurate in my case!).

      Something more business-ish: “household steward”? Rather implies that you’re caring for somebody ELSE’s household, though…

    6. Joielle*

      I think “homemaker” IS the more modern term for “housewife.” I don’t think it necessarily means there are kids or dependents! I’ve also heard some euphemistic ones like “domestic engineer” or “family manager” but personally, I think those are cheesy (not to mention kind of confusing).

    9. Bloopmaster*

      The tricky thing is that domestic work (cleaning/organizing/cooking/caretaking) and caregiving (attending to the needs of dependents) are two different skills/jobs, and–often–two different professions, which might be lumped together in the case of stay at home parents or certain other in-home caregivers. Maybe “domestic work and/or caregiving”, to show that there’s not necessarily overlap (but might be)?

      1. Person from the Resume*

        But as a domestic worker you could be working for someone else. Homemaker implies in your own home, not as employment.

        1. Dark Macadamia*

          Yeah, “domestic work/caregiving” sounds like a paid position, especially if it’s meant to describe your employment. I’d be concerned that I was misrepresenting myself and/or be annoyed that the form is insisting that I indicate a “job” when I don’t have one.

    10. PurplePeopleEater*

      My husband went by “house husband”/”house spouse” while he was between graduate degrees. He was doing a huge part of the home labor, but we don’t have kids. I think he might’ve picked “homemaker” if he had been given the option on a survey. Hope that helps!

    11. Bagpuss*

      Not in paid employment
      (depending on the purpose of the survey you might also want to have further options such as ‘parent or carer’ ‘retired’ ‘disabled/unable to work’ ‘seeking employment’)

    12. yeah*

      Homemaker is the appropriate work. You are making a home. A home doesn’t need anyone but the homemaker. I think the problem is the association with it being a wife (and mother). It is time to change the perception of a word as opposed to finding a “gender neutral” version as the word homemaker has no gender.

      1. Wry*

        But you don’t have to be a spouse to fall into the category OP is describing. Single person with dependents or single person with no dependents would both qualify. (I like the term “house spouse,” I just don’t think it works in this context.”)

        Personally, I think “homemaker” is perfectly appropriate. I understand it’s a bit dated, but I can’t think of a better alternative that encompasses both unpaid care work and unpaid domestic labor.

    14. Yorick*

      I’d go with “not employed.” If you want more info than that, you can then have everyone who chose “not employed” to pick a more specific option: looking for work, homemaker, student, retired, etc.

      1. Yorick*

        And yes, I’d probably go with “homemaker” for that option, since it can be with or without kids

    15. Gloucesterina*

      I defer to professionals in this area of course, but here’s a common breakdown suggested by this survey product site: https://www.alchemer.com/resources/blog/how-to-write-better-demographic-questions/

      What is your current employment status?

      Employed full time (40 or more hours per week)
      Employed part time (up to 39 hours per week)
      Unemployed and currently looking for work
      Unemployed and not currently looking for work
      Student
      Retired
      Homemaker
      Self-employed
      Unable to work

    16. Artemesia*

      homemaker seems like an excellent term for that and it is gender neutral and does not suggest children.

    18. DistinctiveGait*

      “Homemaker/Stay-at-home parent” would make it clearly gender neutral but allow for people without children, I think.

    19. green beans*

      It depends on what information you’re looking for, but I don’t think your question is worded very clearly at this point.

      If you just want to know if they’re looking or not looking for work, ask their unemployment section and put unemployed and looking/not looking for work as part of your options.

      If you want to know why they’re not looking for work, you’d need to ask that in a separate question. You could include “acting as stay-at-home parent, stay-at-home spouse, caregiver, and/or homemaker ” as an option – if you group it with other options, it becomes clear you’re looking at it as a category of people who are staying at home and spending their time on domestic duties, rather than specifically looking for people who identify as a “homemaker.”

      In general, you want to make your questions and your answers as straightforward and value-neutral as possible. If all you want to know is if they’re looking for work or not, that’s all you need to ask – you don’t need to provide justifications for why they may not be looking. If you want to know why they’re not looking, you need to ask that separately from *are* they looking.

    21. tamarack and fireweed*

      You got a lot of suggestions, which were interesting to read. I went back to look at the *purpose* you want it for, as this wouldn’t usually go on a CV. When you say “employment status” I imagine a question like “what was your employment status on January 1st, [year]”, maybe to determine eligibility for something-or-other. I would probably say “not in paid employment” when not looking for work and reserve “unemployed” when looking for work.

      I would imagine most status forms use a multiple-choice format, but if not, and you want to stress what you actually did I wouldn’t find “managed household (unpaid)” or “full-time caregiver (unpaid)” – the latter inclusive of SAH parent *and* family caregiver, the former not implying a caregiving focus – fine.

    22. RagingADHD*

      So, are you differentiating people who are single and unemployed from those who are being financially supported by a spouse/partner and therefore taking over most of the domestic duties?

      Because the gender neutral designation of a person who is just being an adult while between jobs is simply “unemployed.” There is a certain amount of domestic labor that is just inherent for everyone.

      If you’re looking at employment eligibility, I’m not sure the distinction is relevant or appropriate, since it would categorize people based on relationship status, which isn’t the employer’s business.

      1. Dark Macadamia*

        +1 this is a really good framing! Most adults have domestic tasks like dishes, laundry, etc but we don’t call them all homemakers every time they’re jobless.

    23. Homebody Houseplant*

      These suggestion of “not employed” or “no paid employment” come across kind of poorly to me, they’re pretty uncharitable and could seem like attempts to look down on people by being too matter of fact that they are not laboring in a societally expected way. It looks more like you’re saying “they do nothing of value”. Yes, everyone does some domestic labor, but there is a difference between doing normal house tidying as expected of any human and being a “homemaker”.

      I’m not sure a catch all term really works, since you do have distinctions like “stay at home parent” or “house wife/husband”, etc. Maybe go with something like “home keeper”, or just avoid using a title. Instead of being like “they’re not employed” you could say “they primarily focus on household duties” or “they spend their time keeping the household running smoothly”, or even “they mostly do domestic work for their household”. There really isn’t one term that can be applied to all of the different facets of a home keeping experience.

  12. CTT*

    BigLaw attorneys of AAM, are you getting blasted with cold recruiting emails? I used to get one maybe once a month, but for the past two weeks it’s been at least one a day. I assume this is because my firm has not been involved in the associate salary raise arms race (they actually did across the board increases for everyone this week, but 1) it wasn’t at the $200k level and 2) no one leaked it to Above The Law so it’s a “if a tree falls and no one takes a picture of the confidential email, does it make a sound” situation), but it has been driving me bananas.

    1. Coverage Associate*

      Come to think of it, the cold recruiter emails have tapered off. I used to get them daily.

  13. FisherCat*

    I’m getting really frustrated at work due to things entirely outside my control- think that I’m entry level, and the CEO herself changed my job (& all my same-title colleagues, its not personal) from llama grooming to llama training- and it gets to me daily. I think the longer term plan is to find a different job but for various reasons that isn’t feasible for another 1-2 years. Does anyone have tips for not letting it get under my skin in the meantime? FWIW, I disagree with the functional change to the job AND the way the new job has to be done. But, since I can’t fix it and can’t leave yet, what can I do to be less miserable every day at work?

    1. Keymaster of Gozer*

      Been in that same position (can’t change it, can’t leave) and I tried looking at the daily job like a quest giver in an RPG. I’d go in, do what I was told, complete the stuff and be ‘rewarded’ by going home in the evening and relaxing/not thinking about work at all. Basically, put a level of fantasy between my job and reality.

      2. Teapot supervisor*

        Agreed – this a very good idea, which could even be applied to tough days in a good job.

      4. FisherCat*

        This is interesting. I’m not much of a gamer but I might give it a try nonetheless.

    2. kbeers0su*

      Was it just your title that changed, or did the actual substance of your job change? I think I’m in a similar situation, although my title is the same. Since starting this job many of the job responsibilities I wanted when I applied have been modified/lessened/removed from my actual work. So now I have a job that is 25% what I wanted to do, but 75% stuff that the organization has now decided is important but does not fit with my job title/original purpose. It’s stuff I can do- it’s not outside of my skill set. But I’m not excited about doing it. At this point I’m trying to make it another year in this job because I’m looking to move into a new/adjacent field and I’ve been in the role less than a year. Plus, it’s a steady paycheck. So…my only advice is to step back and look big-picture at what’s important to you right now. If, like me, the pandemic has made you rethink everything and you realize having work you can do and a paycheck is enough for awhile…work on adjusting your mindset.

      1. FisherCat*

        Yeah this seems to be the most similar situation to me. Plus a little sprinkle of the fact that I believed in our old purpose which has largely changed. I’m trying to remember that these sea changes aren’t common, exactly, but they’re things that happen along the timeline of life and they’re not happening *at* me, and looking around at other jobs I would qualify for to 1) lay groundwork for when I can leave and 2) sometimes remind myself that this job isn’t so bad by comparison.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Since question- what is happening with this that impacts you and bothers you?
      I ask because I can’t tell if you are being given more responsibilities and no pay increase. Or maybe your job is being changed into something you never would have signed on for. Or maybe it feels like a lie because you do not train llamas you only groom them. (I have seen these lies before that were done for reasons of getting funding or whatever and, yeah, the lies really ticked me off. If we were all trainers we’d get funding but if we were all just groomers, then no funding.)

      2. FisherCat*

        Sorry about the confusion, I think because of trying to anonymize I ended up lacking clarity. There’s no *more* work, its just different. The org’s goals have basically changed, and I would not have taken this job if I had known what was in store. There’s no lying, its just no longer a job or effort that interests me now that it’s been flipped on its head.

    4. Windchime*

      I made an adjustment when I came to my current job. Previously, I had been very invested in things like my title (I was demoted at previous job), what other people were doing, etc. For this current job, I decided to change my perspective and just focus on what is in front of me. I no longer focus on what other people are doing compared to what I’m doing, and I don’t focus on my title or lack thereof. It has made me a lot, lot happier to just consider this my job; it’s what I do to get money so I can live my life. That doesn’t mean I don’t make friendships or care about the people I work with (I do), but it does mean that I am a lot happier. If I am told to do something that doesn’t make sense, I raise the issue and if they still want me to do it……OK. They’re the boss. I’m just here to do stuff and get paid.

      I don’t know if that will help you or not, but it helps me. I’m just here to do stuff and get paid.

      1. The cat's pajamas*

        A friend once gave me good advice for any job misery. Be kind to yourself and leave work at work as much as possible. Do more nice things for yourself outside of work, don’t take work home, answer work calls or emails after hours, don’t stay late unless you absolutely have to meet a deadline, etc.

        Having a good friend or therapist to talk to may be helpful, too.

        Hang in there!

      2. FisherCat*

        Thank you! This is what I’ve tried to settle on, but it only works maybe, 20%, because the job itself has changed into something I do not enjoy. Its still within my expertise and technically within my duties but has changed radically.

  14. jenny*

    Any recommendations for where to buy workplace-friendly bralettes with enough padding to keep anything from showing through my shirt? I’ve been getting the double-lined shelf bralettes from aerie and they aren’t thick enough. The padded lace bralettes are, but you can see the lace through shirts so that defeats the purpose. More info below…

    – not a bra, never again a bra
    – stretchy – not even an underwire-less bra with clasps and straps, I’m like a 38 B.5 so no dice
    – breathable fabric, which for me means cotton usually, I sweat a LOT in synthetic fabrics
    – thick enough my nips won’t show

    Posting in the work thread because I only care about this at work – hope that’s ok!

    1. irene adler*

      Decentexposures.com might have what you need-although they don’t use the word “bralette” specifically.

    2. Actual Vampire*

      Personally I love Calvin Klein bralettes and wear them at work all the time. They might not be thick enough for your purposes, though, especially if you’re wearing them under a thin or tight shirt.

    3. Dark Macadamia*

      Soma has some stretchy/pullover wireless bras that I find really comfy and supportive! They have removable cups that are not very padded but thick enough for coverage.

    5. Recommendation*

      The Duluth Trading Company Women’s Free Range Organic Cotton Bralette sounds like exactly what you are looking for. I swear by them.

    6. Pocket Mouse*

      I’m looking for the same, and specifically racerbacks! My most loved set from Fruit of the Loom seems to have been discontinued, unfortunately.

      1. Budgie Buddy*

        Similar problem here – zero padding doesn’t work for me. My solution was to buy some flexible bandaids and put them over the area in question in an X shape. No more points, and since I’m 34AA I can just skip the bra then.

    8. Coco*

      Uniqlo relax wireless bra.

      It has no wires, no clasps. Just pull over your head. Padded enough to not show nipples. I sleep in these, they are so comfortable.

      1. Emma2*

        I second this – they are not cotton and I also usually find I need to avoid synthetics (this is a bit TMI, but I find synthetics can get a bit stinky in a way that natural fibres don’t), but I don’t find I have this problem with the Uniqlo bras. These are super comfortable.

    9. Redhairedrunner*

      If you are handy with sewing or know someone who is you can buy the padded inserts from stores like Joanns and add to existing bralettes you have and like.

    10. Reba*

      True and Co bralettes are super nice and come with removable cookies (foam pads). I highly recommend them! They are synthetic, but I don’t find them hot myself.

    11. pieces_of_flair*

      Maybe wear whatever non-padded bralette you prefer along with silicon nipple covers?

    13. Ruby + Rowdy*

      I really like my Aerie seamless padded bralettes, have you tried those? They’re smooth and don’t show under shirts for the most part.

    14. Introverted Type-A Employee*

      I realize this isn’t an actual helpful response to OP’s question, but speaking of bras I just wanted to throw out a huge THANK YOU to the posters in other bra questions that recommended r/abrathatfits because it changed my life! I’ve always been busty, but all I could do was buy the biggest one the store had and do my best. I was cramming myself into 44DDD “huge” bras and having the girls pop out and over the cups. Let me tell you, tucking your breast back into the cup surreptitiously during the workday is a SKILL…

      I went to the Reddit, measured, and found out I should be wearing a 40L (US) / 40HH (UK) and used their recommendations for my shape/size to find bras in my size online with easy try on/return policies. MY WORLD IS CHANGED!

      Thank you for being awesome, AAM commentariat! <3

    15. Keanu Reeves's Patchy Beard*

      Pact has a great padded bralette! They’re a little on the pricier side due to the organic cotton, but I think they’ll last a good long while.

    16. Wry*

      I get almost all my bralettes from Gap, and I think a lot of them would meet these criteria. The only thing I’m not sure about is full nip coverage, because that can really vary based on your specific nips and what sort of shirt you’re wearing over the bra. If you’re ordering things online with the potential to return, you can always crank the thermostat down, put on a work shirt, and see what the situation is. Good luck!

    17. NoRegularPosterName*

      I am slightly larger than you but I have been wearing a bralette by Jockey in XL that might work for you that I like a lot. No hooks or wires, removable pads (but needed for coverage IMO), adjustable straps, but made of nylon & spandex. I don’t find it hot, except during our most recent heat wave.

    18. I'm just here for the cats*

      I’m very small chested but I got some bralets at TJ Maxx. They are Danskin and are super comfy and have enough padding not to show anything. They work great with some of my sundresses. I don’t know how it would work for someone with a large chest though.

      Good luck, finding comfy bras sucks!

      1. I'm just here for the cats*

        I do wear an XL because companies dont get that you can be small chested yet big around.

    19. introverted af*

      Could you see about pulling pads out of an existing sports bra to put inside a shelf bra/etc for work? Almost all of the sports bras i have had have had a pocket for a little pad sorta designed to give the bra more shape but they’re removable. I am pretty middle of the road though, (c-d depending on size and brand), so they might not be in smaller bras

    20. I take tea*

      I bought a Sloggi Invisible Bra, it doesn’t give great support, but is very comfortable and has some light padding. I usually dislike man-made fibers too, but this is surprisingly nice, and very thin.

    21. Cooper*

      I like the Fruit of the Loom tank sports bra! You order based on your bust measurement, but may need to adjust a bit for comfort and support. I think you may want to size up, based on the fact that I’m a 38H and tend to size down– there’s a set assumption in every pattern on how different the bust will be from the underbust, and mine is…quite a bit bigger of a difference than patterns normally account for.

    22. Anono-me*

      Walmart has some camisoles a with built in padded bra. They might be worth a look if you shop there.

  15. Keymaster of Gozer*

    Our place has put a question into the standard interview questions that I’m not happy with. Is this just my issue or is it a concern I need to bring up?

    The question is: what self improvement or career improvement opportunities did you take during lockdown?

    The reason I’m personally iffy about this is I don’t have an answer myself, because I had a severe issue with my mental health during that time. I doubt I could say ‘trying and failing to remain sane’. If this is just me being over sensitive though I can keep the question in the interview sheet.

    1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

      I don’t get it. I was learning to do my job remotely, staring down the fear of dying or killing… What do they expect me to have done?

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        Asked my immediate superior that one and she said ‘a lot of people took the extra time not commuting/working to learn new languages, do up their homes, try new exercise, learn a new skill, teach their children. If someone is motivated enough to do those things it shows they are more effective’.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Ping, Ping, Piinnng.

              I now have a picture of air-borne cows in my head….

        2. londonedit*

          I bet she also thinks everyone on furlough has been having a lovely holiday, rather than trying to live on a 20% pay cut and worrying whether their job will even exist in a month’s time.

        3. kbeers0su*

          Uh…and what’s going to happen when a candidate replies “I buried a family member and have been in mourning?” Will they get points taken off? Will they not be scored as highly as someone who got in shape? What’s going to happen when that candidate goes to HR because they didn’t get hired? This is such a can of worms that I’m worried your superior can’t see it…

          1. Keymaster of Gozer*

            That’s…a good question actually. I think I’ll go back to HR with that.

            (I had to endure 3 funerals over zoom last year for people I’d loved. It’s…not nice. Tell your loved ones how special they are to you because ye gods it hurts when you can’t anymore)

          3. Not So NewReader*

            Bingo. Is she ready to hear stories of human suffering and tragedy that will leave her speechless?

        4. Dark Macadamia*

          It’s weird to me that they’re including “teach your children” here! All the other things are optional/extracurricular, but if you’re a parent you kind of had to figure out childcare and school in some format regardless of how “motivated” and “effective” you felt. I guess I would tell a potential employer that I’d been supporting my child’s remote learning as a way to explain why I didn’t get much else done, but I wouldn’t use it as an example of personal growth.

          1. Keymaster of Gozer*

            I think that one is because she’s (my immediate supervisor) got kids and is generally boasting about how she taught them ‘extra’ skills during this – like needlework, or car maintenance etc.

            1. not a doctor*

              OMG… tangentially, I misread this as “because she got kids,” as in, somehow acquired children during the pandemic. Not had, but got! I was VERY confused for a second.

            2. Chauncy Gardener*

              Ummm. I think I hate your supervisor. How smug and self satisfied and unaware of the suffering around her! Didn’t AAM have a column on this in the past?

              1. Keymaster of Gozer*

                I’ve not been in the job long (well, over 6 months) but she’s good in some ways…but definitely a ‘suffering is a choice’ type.

        5. JillianNicola*

          Know what else makes you more effective? Not dying.

          The amount of people who just took the totally wrong lessons out of the past year and a half make me weep for humanity, I swear. I’m sorry for your struggles, and your clueless (at least in this respect) employer! I spent the first 3/4 of 2020 as an essential retail employee, and these sort of breathless ‘but what did you LEARN’ missives make my eyes twitch. I don’t know? That humans are selfish and disgusting? What do you want me to say Sharon

        6. Malarkey01*

          This person is a idiot (sorry I know that’s unkind), but so many people had new overwhelming burdens placed on them by CoVid that thinking that it’s a matter of motivation or efficiency is madness.

          It’s like the people that think people should be able to magically pull themselves out of being born into abject poverty through a combination of bootstraps and gumption and those that don’t “just aren’t trying hard enough” or “just don’t want to”.

        7. Myrin*

          Apart from everything else people have already mentioned, I also continue to seriously question that logic.

          I am plenty motivated to do all kinds of things at work that I can’t be arsed to do at home half of the time. Like, the exact same things, I mean. And it’s not even because I get money for one and not for the other but rather because work is in a different location from my home and I mentally categorise it differently in a way that gives me infinitely more energy and a better ability to concentrate (the main reason why I wouldn’t be cut out for WFH, by the way).

          Conversely, I know plenty of people (some of whom I’m related to) who are always eager and ready to take on another home improvement task or learn yet another technique regarding doing their hobby but who are pretty bad coworkers.

        8. Colette*

          Your superior is ridiculous.

          Some people did those things; some people didn’t because they didn’t want to, their health didn’t permit them to, or they were busy dealing with a global pandemic and didn’t have the time.

          I did a bunch of stuff during the pandemic, but if I were asked that question, I’d assume it wouldn’t be a good fit.

        9. Metadata minion*

          To add to everyone else’s responses, I actually did take up baking during the pandemic. I’m getting quite good at bagels. But it wasn’t because I was “motivated” or “effective”; it was because I desperately needed something to take my mind off the situation and for some reason baking was it even though there were plenty of other normal things I was struggling to keep up with due to stress.

          1. Metadata minion*

            And I did a major professional development thing…because I physically can’t do a large part of my job at home, so we went “hey, let’s do this massive training thing now instead of in 6 months like we’d planned in your annual review”.

          2. Myrin*

            Relatedly – and in some way, that always grinds my gears whenever I see these “productivity during lockdown” posts although I can’t really articulate why exactly – gardening, especially produce and herbs, as well as cooking and bread-baking (with lots of variety and trial and errors; I’m German and we have a lot of bread products!) have been my main hobbies for the better part of the last decade. I didn’t change my routine regarding these things. Does that make me more worthy in the eyes of this supervisor or less?

          3. Humble schoolmarm*

            Exactly! I did, in fact, start fiddling with learning Gaelic through Duolinguo and tried (not terribly successfully) to crochet, but I don’t consider either of those to be signs of motivation, efficiency or self improvement. I live alone, I’ve been that winning combination of bored and stressed and I like languages and handcrafts. I consider those hobbies much more as signs of my privilege (I can afford the time and money for hobbies and I live in an area that takes the pandemic very seriously, but has been touched fairly lightly, so I didn’t have to struggle with nearly as much grief and stress as those in harder hit regions). Plus, while I like to brag about my 355 day streak on Duolinguo, I wouldn’t even think to bring that up in an interview for fear someone would actually expect me to speak Gaelic on the spot.

        10. Bagpuss*

          But teaching your kids isn’t self improvement or career improvements and for most people it’s not an opportunity, so if that’s what she’s looking for the question isn’t fit for purpose.

          I could just about see it being a question to ask people who were furloughed or otherwise not working for a long period during lockdown, although even then I think it would be better as ‘were you able to develop nay new skills or undertake any career development work during lockdown, if so, what can you tell me / us about them?

          It also makes the assumption that everyone answering was working from home., and that working from home = lots of extra spare time, neither of which are true.

          I think it’s a really poor choice of question and will be very alienating to anyone who had a hard time during lockdown, which is going to be a huge proportion of people.
          All other considerations aside, fear and isolation are exhausting, not everyone will have had the energy to do extra stuff, it has nothing to do with how effective you are – all it tells you is how much free time you happened to have during lockdown, and whether or not you were also free from additional stresses and responsibilities.

        11. LadyByTheLake*

          F* that. Many people (like me) had no changes at all — I worked from home and was busy before Covid. I worked from home and was busy after Covid. Oh, and also hoping not to GET SICK AND DIE. Many other people had to make major changes, juggle home learning and child care, try to be on Zoom calls without their naked roommate in the background, dealing with disruption in work, worship, entertainment, mental and social support etc. Oh, and also hoping not to GET SICK AND DIE. This question is elitist, out of touch and is coming from a place of extreme privilege. If a potential employer asked me this question I would Nope right on out of there.

          1. Fran Fine*

            Same (and, like you, I didn’t have much of an adjustment to make last year since I already worked from home and was always a homebody at heart).

        12. Irish girl*

          ummm… none as my commute was short to begin with so I didn’t gain more than 20 mins back a day and i was stuck at home with a 1 and 3 years old interrupting me all day. So no time for self improvement when you can’t take your kid to a park or event since they are all closed!

          And what time during my normal packed work day would I have free time to work on career development as my job never stopped and got heavier during lockdown?

          They should not ask that question as it can be discrimatory to women who were responsible for child care (not schooling) as well as minorities that were essential workers and didn’t have extra time to to be more effective

        14. Teapot supervisor*

          Yeah, talk about slap in the face to anybody whose answer is ‘I spent it dealing with crippling mental health problems/trying to figure out how to balance looking after my small child while also doing my job/burying a close friend or family member/catching covid and struggling to recovery’… the list goes on. I mean, I DID spend some time working towards a qualification during lockdown and even I’d go ‘Yeah, red flag right there’ and pull my application.

        16. green beans*

          that goes in the same bucket as the enraging, “look at all we managed to do to fight COVID when we came together! let’s take that urgency and apply it to other diseases” emails I’ve gotten in the past few months.

          it’s not a good bucket.

        17. Observer*

          and she said ‘a lot of people took the extra time not commuting/working to learn new languages, do up their homes, try new exercise, learn a new skill, teach their children. If someone is motivated enough to do those things it shows they are more effective’.

          Ask her if she expects people to realize that things like “I homeschooled my kids while doing my job” and “learned to deal with the objectively unhealthy levels of isolation caused by the pandemic in reasonably healthy ways” are included in “self improvement?”

          Also, ask her what happens if an effective person did not have the ability to do all of these interesting projects either because the time saved was eaten up by other things required by the pandemic or the money wasn’t there because they got furloughed? Oh, and is she willing to risk dealing with the discrimination issues that this could bring up? She should probably run this by the lawyers…

    2. londonedit*

      Urgh, no, I would hate that question and I’ve seen several articles attempting to push back on the idea that everyone has or should have spent the last 18 months on some kind of self-improvement kick. Plenty of people were just trying to survive, trying not to lose their job, trying to deal with a health crisis of one kind or another, trying to look after family members, trying not to have a breakdown locked down in one room, etc. It just feels really crass and out of touch to assume everyone’s been having a merry old time learning three languages, dropping five stone and training for an ultramarathon.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        I wonder if I should just flat out refuse to ask that question, or explain to HR/my senior management (next person up from me is director kinda level) just why I wouldn’t be able to answer the same question.

        (“Yeah, I watched loved ones die, saw people denying the reality of the situation, had no source of income and my brain went literally kaput. Of course I spent the time learning Russian…/sarcasm”)

        1. Not So NewReader*

          I would just say, “I can’t do this.”

          While the question itself ticks me right off I do understand that it might be hard to pry the question out of clenched fists. So why not offer an alternative question such as, “In thinking back over the last five years what activities have you taken on to develop yourself professionally or personally.”
          I am not even a fan of this question for [reasons] however because of the longer time frame more people might be able to have something to offer.

          I have to go back to, “I can’t do this. They are going to end up telling me heart-wrenching stories and this puts them in an emotional place that should NOT be happening on a job interview.”

          1. asteramella*

            Yes, this. “Tell me about ways that you’ve developed new skills or kept up with new developments in [industry]” is a normal question, and if someone wants to say “Well, during lockdown I had a lot of free time so I taught myself to code” (or whatever) they can say that, while everyone else isn’t expected to have an inspiring story of pandemic self-improvement.

    3. Grace*

      Oh, I would haaaate this question. It ignores the fact that a lot of people were just trying to survive, and did not have the freedom to do either of those things.

      It’s especially bad because someone unscrupulous could use it to screen out people coming from an economically disadvantaged situation or someone with medical issues.

    4. Captain Raymond Holt*

      Definitely a concern! For everyone baking bread on Instagram there were plenty of people who struggled and didn’t jump to self improvement.

      I’m also worried that this question could potentially discriminate against parents, and especially moms. Parents were without childcare/school and forced to take on those roles on top of working. That takes up a lot of energy and leaves even less available for personal/career improvement.

      1. kbeers0su*

        Oh yes…parents would definitely have an HR-level complaint with this one. I spent months trying to wrangle two kids/handle remote school AND not drop any major balls in life/home/work. So if I didn’t get the job I would 100% wonder if that was part of the reason (assuming I gave that as my answer).

      2. Keymaster of Gozer*

        I’m glad they didn’t ask me that when I was hired! I’d have been tempted to point out that being disabled and high risk was enough of a full time occupation at some points.

      3. Overeducated*

        Seriously. From March 2020 to February 2021 (when schools opened hybrid), literally every waking hour was scheduled for either work or childcare from 7 AM until 9 PM, because my spouse and I were on “shifts” trying to manage both. We’d shower and do the dishes and such after 9 PM. We planned leftovers and frozen food for weeknights so that we could alternate who got to exercise for 30 minutes before dinner while the other person heated up food while watching the kids (because you can’t cook from scratch with a toddler trying to climb up your leg). When was I supposed to improve myself, again?

      4. Mimi*

        Not just parents — this question is ripe for discrimination all over, because the people most likely to have been in a position where they were either too busy/too precarious/too freaking out to have had time and brainspace for new hobbies are also statistically most likely to be disabled, people of color, queer or trans, immigrants, etc (also parents).

        As an interviewer I wouldn’t touch this question with a 10-foot pole, and as an interviewee I would be giving any company that asked it EXTREME side-eye.

        Even its less-terrible cousin, “Are there any hobbies or self-improvement projects you picked up during the pandemic that you would like to talk about?” privileges people who have, well, privileges. It’s like rating candidates more highly because they’ve taken international vacations or gone to fancy summer camps, except with way more trauma.

    5. Coffee Powered*

      This is such a non-inclusive question, and I can’t see how it would actually help towards getting the best employees for the job. It wasn’t a fun holiday or relaxing career break for most people, so it’s odd that they’re treating it as one.

      I would definitely raise it, and suggest reframing it more generally and ask them to ‘give an example of a time when you needed to improve your skills or capability, and how you went about doing that’ . Good candidates will have an example of that, and it doesn’t matter whether it was the last year or before that, really!

    6. Mental Lentil*

      This is a terrible question to ask.

      The very notion that we all had tons of down time to suddenly learn Swahili or Python programming or oil painting and that we are somehow bad people if we didn’t do that turns my stomach.

      Millions of us were out of work, on reduced income, taking on the work of 2 or more people, dealing with an angry public that didn’t want to wear masks or social distance, all the while trying to keep ourselves, our families, our coworkers healthy and alive. Millions of people have died from this pandemic and we were worried about becoming part of that statistic. We had—and still have—no idea what the future holds regarding this disease.

      Whoever at your company who decided to add this question needs to have their viewpoint challenged, at the very least. If I were asked this in an interview, I would get up and leave right then and there, to save me from throat-punching the person who asked me this ridiculous question.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Agreed! It’s a sour question. It assumes that everyone was leisurely sitting around with time to learn a new language. People were dying. The question denies the reality of the pandemic and the trauma of millions of people.
        What will happen when someone gives an honest answer “I learned all about the funeral system as I buried 3 of my family members.” Will the interviewers be ready for that?

    7. Alice*

      Yeah, it doesn’t sound great. I wouldn’t have an answer to that because my job had us almost 100% in office during the pandemic, so not much changed for me, aside from the panic attacks and depression. But, more broadly, I don’t think it’s helpful to have a question that deals with a specific time. A perfectly valid candidate might have had issues or of their control during that time!

      I think you would get more meaningful answers with a more general question about how the candidate approaches self improvement.

      1. Alice*

        Addendum since I saw the comment above: remind your superior that candidates are also interviewing the company. This question will make a terrible impression, especially if someone struggled during Covid, which *gestures to world at large*

        1. Keymaster of Gozer*

          Also a very good point. They hired me several months back and if I’d been asked that question…I might have disconnected from the interview right there depending on my mood.

        2. Anonymous for this, colleagues read here*

          Yep. How I spent my Plague Year Vacation: Pivoted from all in person to all online teaching and advising, spent a week in the hospital (back injury), 6 months doing physical therapy and getting myself off a giant buffet of drugs, my son’s brain cancer came back, once I was finally able to wash and dress myself by myself and drive my car, my husband had a mental collapse (panic attacks, depression, severe anxiety) and went on sick leave = I drove him everywhere, I made him get up in the morning, I spent hours helping him through bouts of weeping (I’m still doing physical therapy and in back pain during all this, mind you). Worked fulltime from home.
          That gets us to December 2020.
          No need to continue, right?
          And you know what? Plenty of my friends and colleagues had it *worse*.
          Boy, if I were asked that question, I’d know for sure, this employer is run by assholes.

          1. Keymaster of Gozer*

            As one who also had a total mental breakdown during this I’ve got a lot of respect for you for taking care of him, it cannot be easy dealing with a spouse whose brain has just given up.

            (Shoutout to my husband who had to cope with a terrified, depressed and also paranoid wife during all this. I hate how much I put him through)

            I hope you and your husband are doing better these days. Back pain especially is a nightmare.

            2. Anon for this*

              Thanks, keymaster, we are all doing better now. I know you feel bad about what your husband had to do — but I’m sure that he was glad to be able to do whatever he could. It’s hard to see a loved one suffering. I hope you are doing better. Day by day, that’s how it goes.

    8. Person from the Resume*

      Nothing. I worked through the whole lockdown.

      Nothing. I had to work and take care of family who never left the house during lockdown.

      Didn’t die of COVID and survived bring a COVID long hauler.

      There’s a lot of privileged assumptions in the question, as you know. It’s bad.

      1. Msnotmrs*

        Yes, my answer to this would basically be, “Almost nothing about my worklife changed, so any CE or self-improvement I did wasn’t outside of the stuff I would have been doing anyway.”

    9. Employee of the Bearimy*

      Agree that this is terrible. My spouse was still working outside the home and my kids were at home with me while I was working remotely so every single moment I wasn’t at “work” I was dealing with them (either general caregiving or for “remote school”). There were days I didn’t eat or go to the bathroom until my spouse got home from work. And honestly, after dealing with a boss who had a remarkable lack of empathy around COVID I would run screaming from an interview like that.

    10. No Tribble At All*

      Ooof, I agree that this question is garbage! It wasn’t a *~meditative retreat~*

    11. Rachel 2: Electric Boogaloo*

      “I learned a very important new skill during lockdown. It’s called NOT DYING DURING A GLOBAL PANDEMIC.”

      Seriously, that is a terrible question.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        I actually love this answer because it is 100% what I and most of my team are thinking.

        1. ampersand*

          Yep. I’d be tempted to reply with: “I did everything I could to keep my family as safe as possible/alive while working full time. Is there something more I should have been doing?”

    12. Lora*

      This is definitely not a thoughtful or at all good question. LOTS AND LOTS of people buried loved ones, sometimes multiple loved ones. People had to suddenly become quasi-schoolteachers when school went remote, and spent 30 hours per week trying to get a small child to focus on Zoom lessons. I know healthcare professionals who up and quit their careers because despite being Pandemic Heroes(TM) they were still treated like crap by hospital administrators and even downsized, given pay cuts. Many many MANY people laid off and not recalled and unable to find work in their field anymore, trying to piece together several part time jobs to make ends meet. Many people in my field just burned the heck out from 80 hour workweeks trying to make more vaccine / treatment faster.

      You’re not being oversensitive, this question is going to come across REALLY badly to a lot of people. It wouldn’t be at all difficult to ask it of someone who replies, “I was too busy burying my relatives and dealing with their medical bills/estate to get around to self-improvement, actually.”

    13. Chilipepper Attitude*

      Um, I was at work for almost the entire lockdown. What does she expect me to say?
      I did do quite a lot of studying about Covid and how to live with someone who has it since my husband got it and some of the associated complications.

    14. middle name danger*

      Not just your issue or you being overly sensitive. I think Alison had even brought this up months ago, that she was worried it would start being an interview question. If they aren’t listening to concerns, you can frame it as “we’re going to chase away qualified candidates if we bring up an emotional minefield during an interview.”

      If someone lost someone, or had Covid themselves, this is a FRAUGHT question. “Tell me about how you actively pursued self improvement when your relatives were dying!” I’d tell the hiring manager to kick rocks if I was offered the job after that.

      Even if someone wasn’t personally touched by loss, it was all some of us could do to stay sane. I continued working the whole time and lost basically my entire social support system. I have ADHD, losing my routine destroyed my ability to function for months. I wouldn’t want to disclose any of that in a job interview.

    15. CatCat*

      I’m wondering what this question even has to do with the job.

      I don’t even know how I would answer this. “Rapidly adjusted to productively working from home”? IDK what else there is.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        ‘Ability to go above and beyond during a crisis situation’ probably, since we work in tech support in an industry where having a critical server go down for longer than an hour could cause serious issues relating to safety.

        However, I know how to ask questions of people about their ability to act under stress a without bringing up a deadly virus pandemic.

        1. Bagpuss*

          Plus, it’s a different type of stress – short bursts of stress due to working under time pressure, and long-term stress due to fear for your own life and health and those of your loved ones are very different things.

    16. Liz*

      WTF is this nonsense? I’d have an issue with it is well. Not everyone took whatever “extra” time anything thinks we had to improve our selves or careers. I was fortunate enough to keep my job, but had to adjust to working from home daily, when I really hated it. I still struggle on many days with simply being productive. And I don’t have a lot of extra time as my commute wasn’t all that long. For me, it was just maintaining the status quo. that’s it, nothing more.

      1. Mockingjay*

        I’m puzzled by the “extra time.” I didn’t gain any time by being confined to home, including remote work. Sure, I didn’t have a commute, but that was replaced with Zoom calls to reassure family (elderly parents waiting for the apocalypse – Dad was sure this is IT), searches for toilet paper and cleaning supplies (I only ever kept minimal amounts, preferring to buy only as needed – boy was that a mistake during the pandemic), and having to cook and clean more since people were in the house 24/7 (add grocery searches because again, everyone was panic buying). I also had to adjust to working from home when I prefer to be in the office and had to move my workspace away from Dear Husband, who was also WFH and is a chatty, social guy and likes to interrupt because he wants to share something with me. (We worked out that lunch and midafternoon break were the best times to chat during the “workday.”)

        Did I learn a new language or take a course? Nope. I dug out my adult coloring books and spent evenings calming myself by filling in mandalas and flowers.

        tl;dr: send this mess to HR. It doesn’t deserve another moment of your thought. It will only revive the worst moments of the last 15 months.

    17. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Lots of people spent the year dealing with fiscal crisis, health crisis, mental health crisis, children, and just getting through each day in whatever way they could. Your company is showing its privilege, and it smells.

      They are going to deserve some very snarky answers.

    18. Bloopmaster*

      It’s one thing to ask a general questions about self improvement or career improvement opportunities someone might have taken in general, at any point in time (because somethings those things don’t get highlighted in application materials), but to ask about them specifically during the pandemic/lockdown is just gross. It’s the presumption that people should have been exceptionally functional during a terrible period that’s disgusting–so just ask about those activities in a more general (and less judge-y) way.

    19. Purple Cat*

      This is an AWFUL question.
      And I know I somewhat recently read an article about how terrible this mindset is, but I don’t have time to try to dig it up.

      People “survived” an incredible amount of inordinate stress during a GLOBAL PANDEMIC. This wasn’t the time for self-fullfilment and “bettering” yourself. It’s such a classist disconnected view from reality. And it certainly doen’t speak to how employees will perform on the job.
      I think you could ask something more broad about “how did you handle the changing circumstances during the last year” or even possibly (and I don’t actually like this one) “what did you learn over the last year?”
      But “how did you better yourself?” no, no, no!

    20. AlexdrinaVictoria*

      I totally lost my marbles and spent a month picking them all up again. Think that will get me hired??

    22. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

      The only way I could see this being a reasonable question is if the person being interviewed had been let go or was furloughed during the lockdown and was not working. I had a family member, December 2019 grad, looking for a job during most of 2020, so I encouraged him to look at free courses in his field (Coursera for the win!) to show that he was doing ‘something.’ Not that looking for a job isn’t doing ‘something’ but it was a way that I was hoping would help him stand out a little, especially as the May 2020 college grads joined the mix.

      1. Keymaster of Gozer*

        Thing is, I was unemployed when they interviewed me last year and couldn’t have answered that I’d done any kind of courses or additional learning. Don’t want to blame anyone else who couldn’t face it either.

    23. balanceofthemis*

      I was asked this question in an interview, and it rubbed me the wrong way, which probably showed in my answer. I was honest, a took a couple coursera classes and helped my parents fix up thier house to sell.

      The interviewer asked me what I learned from that experience, I told her I learned that I don’t ever want to work in construction. I didn’t get the job.

    24. Wry*

      You’re not being oversensitive. It’s an inappropriate question. The past year and a half has been a worldwide health crisis, not a vacation. If you have the power to remove the question, definitely do so.

    25. Iota*

      Joining the chorus of “this is awful”.

      My lockdown-survival-mechanism was to acquire 120 houseplants and learn from scratch how to keep them alive. I work in a hospital and live on my own and I needed *something* that wasn’t work, wasn’t overtly related to current events, that took a bit of concentration, to focus on instead. That wasn’t enrichment, I wasn’t doing it to develop new skills or to develop a passion. I was doing it because it was a broadly workable way of coping. I could spin it to sound good in an interview situation, probably, but I wouldn’t want to. I’d be pretty unsettled by the idea that it showed that I was in any way motivated to do anything other than get by, day to day, in whatever way meant I didn’t spiral into the distress and depression and isolation and fear as I tried to keep going.

      All my work for a year was pretty profoundly derailed as we tried to figure out how to completely reconfigure our service so we could still treat our patients – people in urgent need of high-risk treatment, where their immune system is also severely compromised by their illness and then wiped out completely by the treatment. How do you do that in the context of a pandemic? The idea that I could have taken advantage of lockdown to pursue some extracurricular activities with all the spare time and brain space that afforded me is laughable.

      And I got off lightly. I came through the pandemic pretty well, setting aside the aching loneliness, the zoom funerals, the tension and stress headaches, the fear. I did learn a lot about houseplants and how to look after them! I did watch an unreasonable amount of archive Formula 1 races (comfort viewing). That doesn’t mean I want to be asked to talk about it in an interview situation, especially not if it’s framed as the need to show that I was ~productive~ and ~motivated~.

      Also, I think this question overlooks the part where often the people who responded with the most wisdom were the ones who took a nuanced view of the push to do all the things with lockdown free time. The people who prioritised self-care and didn’t push themselves to take up the instagrammable trendy hobbies. The ones who focussed on doing whatever they needed to do to get through as safely as they could whilst doing what they could to protect their mental health. That’s a kind of resilience and insight that speaks to someone’s ability to handle challenging, stressful, draining situations. It’s also absolutely not something that anyone should be asked to go into in an interview.

    26. DrRat*

      “I took up woodworking and made a dart board with your face on it! Wanna see?”

      Seriously, my response would probably be to do my best Mr Spock eyebrow and say, “Do you really not have any idea how out of touch that question sounds? Are you seriously going to ask that question to people who had family members die of COVID? Plus I’m thinking that if you base any kind of performance evaluations on that, we’re going to get sued by someone covered by the ADA. Also, did anyone run that by the legal team? Because I’m thinking no.”

    27. HelenofWhat*

      This question went viral on LinkedIn for how poorly thought out it is and how rude it is for those who lost loved ones or had health struggles. The only people who liked it were looking for excuses to smugly report their successes.
      You can push back or ask to skip it… Maybe leaving it to the end of your time so you “don’t have time to ask the question”?

    28. tamarack and fireweed*

      Yeah, no. If I could without repercussions, I would be inclined to write a very polite email to whoever at HR owns recruitment and point out that while some people clearly did use the pandemic time in new ways for personal or professional growth, others juggled three different school closures / home instruction schedules / loss of childcare with job loss and potentially deaths or severe illness in the family. And that candidates with particular medical vulnerabilities who happen to live in a hotspot undoubtedly had to manage entirely different levels of anxiety than a healthy younger candidate who had the privilege of sitting out the greatest risk in an isolated house.

      You might also point out that some candidates might find the question insensitive enough that they could consider it a red flag even if they personally have a good answer. It paints the employer in a light of being insensitive to how bad it has been for many.

    29. fhqwhgads*

      I think it’s a shitty question. It doesn’t inherently presume people weren’t doing their normal jobs exactly as before the pandemic, but it sort implies that? And that’s a bigger proportion of people than they may think. If they wouldn’t also ask the same question but replacing “during lockdown” with “in the past year” – for any year they might be doing interviews – then that tells you it’s not worth asking. Whereas if they would ask that absent the lockdown aspect, then maybe figure out what they’re really trying to get at with it.

    30. tra la la*

      Um, so, I work in higher education so I had to support a lot of panicky faculty as they learned how to teach online with virtually no notice, and I had to learn how to teach online myself while also trying to identify legally-available electronic sources for said faculty.

      So yeah, I can talk about what I did and what I learned, but if I were asked that question and it were framed as being about “self-improvement,” I’d know that I didn’t want to work at that place.

      1. tra la la*

        Thinking about this, though, if I’d been laid off (so grateful that I wasn’t) I do know that I would have been doing a lot of things to make me marketable for the next job, which is something that I do even as an employee. What I find objectionable about the question is the implication that I had a lot of time on my hands, and the way I’m wired, I would have been working even if I hadn’t been employed, and so the “self-improvement” angle would bug me. I would have been writing articles rather than perfecting my sourdough bread baking skills.

    31. allathian*

      What a stupid question!

      I’ve had it easy compared to a lot of people, but I guess completing a certification that I started working on in the fall 2019 would answer this one for me. But I’m lucky because I didn’t lose anyone to Covid, I’ve probably avoided being exposed because I haven’t even been tested for Covid yet, although both my husband and my son have been tested. I had a runny nose in the spring and would have gone for a test if my allergy meds hadn’t dealt with it. I’m counting my lucky stars every day. But even so, I feel this question is utterly inappropriate.

    32. Lizy*

      Good lord… please push back. (If you’re still reading.)

      I didn’t have “lockdown”. I still got my fat butt out to work. My job is one that could not have been done remotely. While our offices were closed to the public, I was still there. I didn’t learn anything new because … I was busy with life?

      Nevermind the people like you who were just trying to stay sane. Such a horrible question (the interview one – not yours)

    33. Anyhow*

      I loathe this question for all of the reasons articulated in previous comments. I feel this question should be removed from the list of your employer’s questions. It’s so very tone deaf and reeks of privilege.

      Career Improvement Opportunities: hmm, let’s see, in March 2020, as a teacher, I had exactly three days to transition from a face-to-face, in person classroom teacher into an online, remote teacher. I had three whole days to figure out how I was going to teach my students remotely when I had zero experience of doing that before. Then, in August 2020, at the height of the pandemic I got to return to the classroom and teach face-to-face again. Except this time around some of my students were remote. So, I became a hybrid teacher, and once again- I hardly had any training for this. The roster of students who were remote and students who were face-to-face changed every single day. Then different students and colleagues came down with COVID. Some people were extremely sick. Meanwhile, I went to work every single day. Throughout the stress. Throughout the hurdle of teaching f2f and remote at the exact same time. Throughout worrying about my own health. Throughout worrying about the mental health of my students, my colleagues, our families. Throughout all of the hospitalizations of friends and family. Throughout the deaths in my community. What did I learn? I’d tell your boss that I learned that there are essential workers who jumped through rings of fire while the rest of society sat back and took them for granted from their positions of privilege.

    34. Sanity Lost*

      “I worked through the entire time, buried an uncle, and tried to keep my children engaged and focused on their schoolwork. I had no time for “self-improvement”.

      Nope, I personally would hate this question as it gives the underlaying feeling that last year was a holiday for everyone.

  16. Gem*

    Working full time and going to grad school full time (ie 2.5 classes a semester). Doable? Nah?

    1. No Tribble At All*

      98% chance not doable. Depends on the job. Even if they’re all online, grad school classes still require a lot of *time* so unless you can do your schoolwork during your work time, you’re just going to run out of time in the day. I’m “only” doing full time + 1 class a semester, and it’s still a lot. I’d say my class is at least 15 hours a week.

      I maybe could have done two classes at once when I was a night shift operator (aka paid to sit there for 12 hours in case something broke). So unless your job is equally as boring and has scads of time where you’re not expected to do literally anything, I’d say no.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Is your employer supporting you in this? Ie, they want you to get the degree (and may even be paying for it), and so will let you spend some on-the-clock time studying, doing assignments, etc.

      If this is a thesis-option masters, is what you do on the job applicable to your thesis? Because working on a thesis, even though it might just be one or two 3-credit classes, is pretty much a full-time job.

      But I think 2 classes at a time ought to be your limit. That’s M-Th, 2 hours every evening in the classroom, plus aforementioned study & assignment time.

    3. purple giraffe*

      Depends what your grad school is. Is there a research component? In my STEM grad program, each class was 3 hrs per week of instruction + 15 hrs per week for assignments. So, can you handle a 70-80 hr week? I’m also not sure what .5 of a class is. A class that meets every other week for the year?

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      So so dependent. I did it with no problem for four years (in fact, I was doing two masters degrees at the same time, which is why it took four years instead of two), but I am a freak of nature in ways that benefited this endeavor and I know people who can’t handle undergrad part time while working part time because that’s not how their brain works. So. Doable in general? Maybe. Doable for Red Reader? Without a doubt. Doable for Gem? Whole different question.

    5. Grace*

      Really, really hard. Only doable if your work will let you use downtime to work on school stuff (and you have a job with LOTS of downtime), and it’s also going to be hiiiighly dependent upon the field your grad school classes are in. If there’s significant overlap between the two, it’s easier.

      I did the “working full time and grad school half time”, and that was with a very, very understanding boss and classes that met in the evening. It was rough, and this is coming from someone who finished 2 undergraduate degrees in 4 years, so I’m not a slacker. And even with a boss who was super lenient, I still had to do a full semester while on unpaid leave from work, because it just wasn’t physically possible to be in the field for grad research and working full time in a totally different field at the same time.

    6. MissBliss*

      I finished grad school working full-time in 2.5 years. The one semester I took 3 classes made me so sick I had to skip the winterim course I’d planned on (hence why I graduated in 2.5 years instead of 2). But 2 classes per semester was totally reasonable to me. My program was not super intensive, though, so it really depends on your program, degree, school, professors, and support system in and out of work. Good luck!

    7. kbeers0su*

      Just did it. I completed an MBA (started in-person, then fully online thanks to COVID). The classes were 8 weeks long and I took 1-2 at a time, so I was able to complete it in 5 semesters (fall, spring, summer, fall, spring). I also have two kids and a small business with my partner. I may be a *bit* of an overachiever, but I also know many other people in the program who were in a similar situation (i.e. FT jobs and families). So, as someone else said I think it definitely depends on the program.

    8. Lora*

      Depends on what else you have going on. I’ve done it, but you have to not have a ton of other responsibilities – elder care, childcare, spouse having a crisis etc. You basically have time in the day to do your job, go home, fix dinner and tidy a bit, then do your coursework and go to bed. You don’t have time for hobbies or a lot of socializing – a glass of wine or two on the weekend with a friend is about it. It’s about 30-40 hours per week commitment, so if you have a short or nonexistent commute, don’t mind dropping hobbies, don’t have childcare or elder care to worry about, sure, can be done.

    9. BlueWolf*

      I would say nah, but I’m biased. My partner did it and eventually burned out and lost both the job and subsequently the motivation to finish the master’s degree (the job was related to what he wanted to do with the master’s degree). Really depends on the person, the type of job, the type of grad school, etc. If it’s a job with a predictable schedule and low stress that will work with your school schedule then it may be doable. My partner’s job was a low paid salaried position that expected him to regularly work overtime/weekends and wasn’t sensitive to his school needs.

    10. Unkempt Flatware*

      Yep! I had three part time jobs and made this happen. You can do it too. Treat yourself often, sleep as much as possible, and don’t feel guilty about missing brunch sometimes.

    11. Asenath*

      No. I did a grad program when I was unemployed, employed part-time, and finally employed full time. I had to adjust my program accordingly – and when employed full time I did a single course plus work on my thesis at any given time. Naturally, I worked less on my thesis the times I was doing a course, and only on my thesis when I finally got all my coursework done. And that was with starting my thesis ASAP and, wherever possible, tailoring my coursework accordingly. For example, when I did a course on stats, if possible, I analyzed the statistical methods used in papers on my thesis topic, llama migration patterns. I could never never have managed a full time load and working even part time, much less full time. Grad level courses take a LOT of work if you want to do well in them.

    12. Renee Remains the Same*

      I never tried it. I did one class a semester and a short, expedited summer session. Graduated in 3 years (full-time students took 2 years). For the most part, I was happy with my decision. Perhaps there were some semesters I could have taken an additional course (if one of the classes was easy), but I wasn’t able to judge that unless I was in the class and doing the work. I would argue the time you save with the additional class is not worth the burnout that you might get for a year or two of constant scheduling of work and personal time. You’ll have very little time to spend relaxing/recharging, which becomes more and more important as time goes on.

      Unless you’re in desperate straits trying to improve your career / looking to leave your current work situation, I would take your time, really absorb each class in a way that benefits learning.

    13. SnapCrackleStop*

      I did full time work with a part time Data Science degree, supported by work. Most semesters I couldn’t handle more than 1 class. No kids, and I have a very supportive partner. My health also wasn’t great, that’s not something you can necessarily predict.

      It’ll vary by program and the rest of the your life stuff, but this was my experience.

    14. BRR*

      I did two classes a semester with a not too stressful job and an easy program. So i think it’s doable depending on the variables. Thesis writing was much harder than the classes for me.

    15. Bean Counter Extraordinaire*

      Depends! I did, for a masters in accounting, but I lived a block from work and all my classes were online, so no time lost driving to and fro.

    16. Metadata minion*

      It really depends on your program, your job, and any other responsibilities you have. I did 2 classes/semester while working full-time, but it was a library job while working in a library, so my boss was 100% ok with me working on the odd homework assignment when things were slow, and I didn’t have any lab work or things like that. And I really wish I’d had the time to really commit to the coursework instead of just doing enough that I felt like I had a solid grasp on the materials and would pass the class. But on the other hand, having the work experience was hugely valuable.

    17. Seal*

      I got 2 master’s degrees in 5 years while working full time, but pretty much all I did during that time was work and study. So it’s definitely doable if you’re willing to put other things on hold while you’re in grad school.

    18. TiffIf*

      So this was undergrad, not grad, but for me working full time and taking a part time undergrad (upper level courses) load was a bad plan. I ended up being let go from the job because I got caught trying to finish some reading for class during work. (Yes it was a stupid decision.)

    19. Millie*

      I have and it is very hard. It depends on your work, your desire to have a social life and your motivation.

    20. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I know some who have. All they did was work and do class/classwork. No downtime, no fun time. It worked (barely) for one person because she still lived at home and her mom helped her out with food, laundry, etc.

    21. Sparkles McFadden*

      I did this in my mid-40s. I had everything scheduled so tightly that my biggest problem was worrying about my commute. If the train got canceled/was late, I’d have a problem. I did asked for a slight schedule change one day a week (coming in early/leaving early) which my boss agreed to…and then constantly bitched about (“I said yes because I didn’t think you were actually going to do that.”) It’s best if you can get management support when you are doing this.

      It was exhausting but I have to say it was easier than when I was in undergrad full time and working at outside jobs. The reason it was easier is that, after a couple of decades in the work world, my brain became super-efficient at zeroing in on what was important and what wasn’t in my classes, and I felt I absorbed information better. My commute was about an hour and I got lots of studying time on the train.

    22. talos*

      I did an MS in computer science (coursework-only/2 semesters, so 4 classes but no research) while working probably 20 hours a week, and several times, I got so fatigued that I literally could not do anything except sleep. I actually fell asleep in a plate of food, at a meal with other people present. It was bad.

      So if you’re doing an MS in computer science, I would say you’ll want to dramatically space out classes? 2.5 would be too many while working 40 hour weeks. Other fields I can’t really speak for.

    23. LKW*

      Depends on the job. I worked full time and took 2 classes a semester. My job was 7:30 am to 4:30 pm and I rarely had to stay beyond 5pm and I never had to take work home. By last semester I had classes or school related activities – e.g. group working sessions – 7 days a week. It can be done, but if your job isn’t well time-boxed then I recommend starting with 1 class per semester to see how well you fare.

    24. Stevie Budd*

      It does depend, as others say. For my MPH, I was working full time but 3 x 12 hour shifts (plus some overtime) and took 15 credit hours a semester. The job was as a veterinary technician, so it was physical and somewhat mental, but not mentally taxing and I could leave it behind at the door which I think helped.

      I think it would be harder with a research component. In my PhD, I had a research assistantship to cover my tuition, etc. so classes plus research plus another full time job would have been tough. I did do some part time work for a previous job, but the hours were flexible. It’s important to leave a lot mental space for working on a dissertation, etc. since that is so self-driven.

    25. Hillary*

      Doable but it sucks. I did an MBA in 2.5 years while working full time. Three classes during regular semesters plus one or two in the summer. I finished in time, I got the opportunities I wanted out of it, and the ROI was there.

      I had no social life the entire time. I lived alone in a studio apartment so housework was pretty minimal, but at one point I was so busy I was trying to outsource laundry. I couldn’t have done it if my job required/allowed more than 40 hours/week.

      Ten years later my main regret is that I didn’t just accept the loans and go full time.

    26. Coenobita*

      Totally agree with everyone saying “it depends”! I kept my full time day job while doing a masters in two years (4ish classes per semester) and it was fine, but:
      (1) I did a policy/practice focused program rather than a research one, and it expected students to have stuff going on during the day so all the classes started 4pm or later
      (2) My day job was super flexible and supportive
      (3) My day job, my classes, and my home were all within like 3 miles of each other
      (4) I didn’t have a lot of other responsibilities in my life at the time
      (5) To be completely honest, my program wasn’t all that hard!

      If any one of those things hadn’t been true, I think it would’ve been a different story.

    27. 8 classes left*

      Not grad school, but I’m currently working on my BA . I work 40 hours and take 2 condensed (8 weeks instead of 16) classes at a time. It is hard. It’s not the actual work itself that’s hard, but trying to cram in 8-10 hours a week for each class is. I don’t have a lot of free time for other things I like to do. I would assume grad school classes take even more time and brainpower.

    28. Pool Lounger*

      Totally depends on the grad program. Library science? Totally doable and many people do it. A program where there’s a lab component or where you’re writing really involved research papers and have tons of reading? Less doable.

    29. DrRat*

      I did it, I know other people who did it, but you have to be 100% committed. You have to plan to have NO social life whatsoever. If you’ve got kids, hard no. If you’re in a relationship, you’ll probably trash it. Good chance of significant weight gain and/or substance abuse. And you don’t need to sleep more than 4-5 hours a night, right?

      Think of it as playing a video game at the hardest possible mode, for months or years.

      Oh, and it will give you nightmares afterwards. For decades.

    30. IL JimP*

      I work at a grad school, and we really recommend only 1 course at a time for people working full time

      It’s about 12-15 hours a week of work per course at my school

    31. Gloucesterina*

      My boss is doing a PhD and it seems that she has been taking one class per semester.

    32. asteramella*

      I did this for a Masters program that was known for being “easy.” I had a lot of schedule flexibility (took classes Mon and Wed, worked Tue, Thu, Fri, Sat) and my capstone project was on something I was already doing at work. It sucked. I would never recommend it. I did manage to graduate, but my grades were awful.

  17. Stuckinacrazyjob*

    I’m kinda bummed to hear we gotta go to stuff physically now- not having to worry about logistics was saving a lot of capacity. Thinking about capacity, I’m still trying to think of career goals. It is sort of assumed that you’ll be able to rise higher as you get experience, but I still have a pretty limited capacity- working multiple ” jobs” at the same time or anything that requires long hours probably won’t be a possibility for me. I want to be able to sustain having a job for a long time too. I feel like I’m sitting on very limited physical and mental energy which is a big setback.

    1. Unkempt Flatware*

      Can I ask your age range? Also, how long have you been in the workforce? I felt like this for so long. It was only in the last few years that I have risen to where I felt I belonged or earned. I now work for a government agency that funds the work I did in the private sector. I work with very educated and experienced people from all over the world. We make great money. We are home for dinner every night. We rarely feel burned out. It’s real and you can get there. Someone on this site once said they were surprised that as they made more money, the jobs got easier as far as day-to-day work. This has been true for me. The more I make, the less frazzled and overworked I feel.

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        Nearly 40 but maybe 4 years of experience in my field- I got * hosed* by the great recession. I’m hoping this new rethinking of the workplace will help before the next big recession where we lose our jobs and all our progress is wiped out again.

        1. Unkempt Flatware*

          I hope so too. I’m 35 and was fortunate to be in college for most of the recession. I never thought about that before but you’re probably on the right track. How we work and how work has changed could absolutely change the response to the next one.

          1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

            Yea, the companies and bosses might not have learned from this, but we sure have. It’s a new world!

      2. Gloucesterina*

        That transition sounds amazing! How did you learn about this type of role? Did you have mentors or colleagues who supported you in identifying that as a possible transition or in the process of actually arriving there?

    2. ferrina*

      Agree. My job is going to a hybrid model, and even commuting one day a week is zapping my energy!

      Be gentle with yourself- last year was a doozy. It’s going to take a long time to recover, and each person and place is going to recover at their own pace.

      Sometimes a career goal gets to be “Have a job that I don’t hate and isn’t actively doing evil and pays my bills.” In the last 50 years, it seems like the job market has transformed from clear-cut, guaranteed career paths to a more flexible but less certain career paths. I think the idea that you’ll inherently rise higher through seniority is outdated in a lot of fields. I think the trick is to know how to use the experience you have to get in to a job that you like. Then build that in to the next job. Rinse, repeat. Sounds like you got slammed by the Great Recession. I got hit with it too, and it took about 4 years to get back to on any kind of track, and those 4 years were pretty much lost time (career wise- I picked up some really undervalued skills around communication and customer service, though!). It took another 5 years and a couple job hops to get close to where I would be without the Recession (and I got lucky with a couple big projects and a lot of hard hours).

      Good luck!

      1. Stuckinacrazyjob*

        That’s true. What I like about my job now is that some children might be helped by my efforts. This last year has been hard and I’m now like I don’t know what I want to be now- everything seems so silly after that catastrophe and I’ve changed a lot. So now I’m like I’m not sure what I even want to do when I’m 40 and that’s only 3 years away.

  18. ghostlight*

    Curious if anyone here has ever job-searched with a major surgery (in my case, open heart surgery) on the horizon. I’m currently on a short summer contract that will end in the fall right before I’m due to have my surgery, but I would love a long-term, stable job after 2020. Not sure if I should address it in interviews or after an offer… or if I should even mention it at all before I have a date nailed down.

    I’m also not sure what recovery will look like for me–my last surgery (which was before 8th grade) took me almost a year to get back to 100%. I think remote work would help a lot, but so would a flexible schedule if I have follow-up appointments, PT, or just a rough day. But I should discuss those things in an interview/offer phase… right? I also work in performing arts admin so I’m not sure if this is at all realistic. Thoughts?

    1. Metadata minion*

      This wasn’t looking at nearly such a long recovery, but right after I got offered my current job I found out I had to have surgery for thyroid cancer and would have to be out for at least a week starting about three weeks into the new job. Luckily my employer is really good about this sort of thing and it was a total non-issue except that getting the insurance changed in time was…fun.

      I would tend to recommend mentioning it at the offer stage.

    2. elle*

      If you have the financial flexibility, I would disclose at the interview stage in order to weed out employers that aren’t going to be good to work with on this process. You won’t be protected by FMLA on this timeline, so waiting until you’re both stuck with each other at an employer who won’t handle it well is more likely to not go in your favor.

  19. Hotdog not dog*

    What is an appropriate level of involvement for a parent of a teenager looking for their first summer job? I’m having a debate with a friend- she decided what job, filled out the application, scheduled the interview, and

    1. Hotdog not dog*

      …sorry, somehow that submitted before I finished! She met with her son’s manager to decide his schedule, negotiated the pay, and drives him to and from every shift. On the other hand, I made a few suggestions but otherwise left it to my son to navigate. The end result is that her son is on his second week of work and mine is still looking. (In spite of the supposed worker shortage in our area, positions have filled quickly for retail/service jobs.) I feel like hands mostly off is still the right answer, but I’m second guessing myself.

      1. Grace*

        I would definitely err on the side you’re taking. Her son probably still doesn’t know how to get a job, despite having one. I mean, if her goal was “make sure my son has a job this summer” rather than “help my son learn how to get a job”, then she got what she wanted. But she robbed her son of a valuable learning experience.

        As long as there are consequences to your son not having a job (like, you’re not paying for stuff you want him to have a job to pay for), he’s going to be much better off navigating this himself. If he flounders a bit while looking for a job, well, that’s exactly what this time in his life is for. Better to flail a bit now while he has a stable place to live/food/etc. than when he’s really on his own.

        1. I'm A Little Teapot*

          I agree. With the addition that the parent should talk through how to do this stuff, not just turn them loose with no clue. Talk it through, be available to answer questions, then let the kid figure it out from there.

          1. ecnaseener*

            Yes! Compare to if you were training a new employee — if you knew they had never done an important and difficult task before, you’d give them more guidance than just “a few suggestions.” Help him out, show him how to do it, but yeah absolutely don’t *do it for him.*

        2. Hotdog not dog*

          I’d like him to have a job, but mostly for the learning experience. He’d like to have money to support the social plans he hopes to be making soon and to build up some savings towards a car for when he gets his license. My job as a parent is to help him become a productive members of society, which means sooner or later he’ll need to know how to get a job. Might as well learn now while the stakes are low and any mistakes will just be disappointing but not devastating.

        3. Lurker*

          I think this is such a great comment. I’d ask myself the question, what do I hope that my son learns from this experience? And for me, navigating this process independently (I’d obviously offer support, but just doing EVERYTHING….) would provide so many learning opportunities. It’s really a shame that she’s snowplowing like that…

        4. Kiki*

          This. I put a LOT of effort into helping my brother with college applications (I didn’t want to write it for him (would’ve been a lot faster, tbh) so it was like pulling teeth, for hours — ate up a whole bunch of my Christmas break that year), and he did get into a good college. But then he floundered in college, and my mother and I both wonder if I actually did him any favors, or if getting himself into college (or not) would have been better for him overall.

        5. Teapot supervisor*

          This 100%. If your goal is just ‘get son job’, then friend’s method makes sense. But I used to arrange work experience with teens in a previous job and how much they ‘got’ out of the placement was inversely proportionate to how much their parents were involved. The ones where parents pretty much arranged it for them pretty much sat there ticking boxes or finding ways to make it to 5pm. Basically, all they got was some words to add to their CV and no actual work ‘experience’. The most pushy parent was also the one who emailed on her daughter’s first day to say she wouldn’t be turning up after all, so go figure.

      2. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

        It’s going to depend a lot on the kid, but really, parents should stay out of kids job searches. Those are skills they need to learn on their own. You should be available to answer questions and help guide them through the process, but it’s their job not the parent’s.

        1. Clisby*

          It also depends on where you live. I live in a city that’s heavily tourist-oriented, and every food/beverage/retail place downtown is begging for seasonal employees this summer. My 19-year-old son walked down to a place he liked, talked to the manager, and came out with a job. He really likes it, but if it turned out to be a bad place to work, he could have ditched it, and found another job within the next 3-4 blocks. I had no involvement whatsoever, except that I told him he had to find a job within walking/biking/bus distance. He hasn’t been interested in getting a driver’s license, and I’m not interested in driving him to work.

      3. Actual Vampire*

        Your friend’s level of involvement sounds intense, but it might be appropriate for her kid. But I think you might be a little too hands-off with your son. I remember when I was a teenager, I was totally baffled by the idea of having a job. I had no idea of what it entailed, what my qualifications were, what I would be doing at work, whether I could balance work and school, how I would transport myself there, etc. My parents didn’t really give me any guidance – I think if I had gotten hired, they would have stepped up to help me, but since I never got hired they never really talked to me about it. If you haven’t already, you might want to at least have a conversation with your son answering the questions he might not know to ask. Talk about what a job usually entails, what his schedule might be, how he might get there, etc. This will probably give him more confidence when he’s job-searching and more ability to act like he knows what he’s doing.

      4. Asenath*

        Hands off is best. All my parents did when I got my first ever paid job was mention that they’d heard that a certain student position might be open – I contacted the employer and did everything else needed. For me, that was part of learning how to find a job .

      5. Lora*

        I am definitely Old and out of touch, but in Ye Olden Days under-18 employees had to have a work permit signed by parent/guardian, school administrator and issued by the town clerk, and the clerk’s office was only reachable by car (which I didn’t have). My mother refused to have anything to do with that process and said I should just get a job working under the table where they wouldn’t care about whether or not I had a permit; the school called her and pressured her into signing, saying that under the table jobs like that were often dangerous as they disobeyed all the other worker-safety laws too, and what would happen if I was hurt? I also needed my mother to sign off on allowing my driving permit, but she wouldn’t sign the permission slip for the school-sponsored Driver’s Ed class because somehow I was supposed to “just figure it out, you’re old enough to drive you should be old enough to figure this out!” Thankfully this was still in the era of paper paychecks that banks would cash for a small fee, if I’d had to have an actual account with an adult co-signer I’d have been totally lost.

        I think parents should definitely walk kids through the process the first time, or go to the library and get some books about how to apply for jobs, or help them get first-job training classes (e.g. lifeguarding, child CPR for babysitting and camp counselor type jobs, stuff like that), help them with the underage work permit process, set up their savings account for paycheck deposits, if they have some uniform to pay for then help with that. Kids aren’t psychic, they know what you teach them, so teach them and then let them keep their own work hours in a calendar and set alarms and work out the bus schedule.

      6. LKW*

        I think you’re taking the right approach. Your friend is playing pitcher, you’re playing coach. When the kids have to go it on their own, your kid will be significantly more experienced.

      7. Artemesia*

        I always hesitate on this one because when I was a kid looking for a job it was so discouraging to see the children of wealthy connected parents get sinecures or good paying summer jobs when I had to scramble and then wait tables if I was lucky. And it is the same today that well connected parents arrange opportunities for their kids. (check out the nepotism on Wallstreet)

        But you are raising a man; yours with a little guidance from you will be self reliant and take responsibility for himself and develop the skills needed for his future. Your approach is right and in the long run your son (and your relationship with him) will be the better for it. Imagine being the woman who marries this kid being hand carried through life by Mommy and imagine the MIL she will be.

      8. WellRed*

        Not sure where he’s applying but high school kids usually have better luck getting hired at the grocery store or ice cream parlor rather than Say, Target.

      9. tamarack and fireweed*

        I think it is ok, for efficiency’s sake, for a parent who happens to have a lead or two to help ferret out an opportunity (less than 1h of effort – not a major production!) and give the CV a read. After all, summer may be over before a teen on their own may have gotten their act together. All the rest, NO.

      10. allathian*

        Yeah, well, I guess she (and he) got lucky. Most managers would have noped out and said something about employing only those kids who are independent enough to complete the application process in the first place.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Nope nope nope. Parents can have veto power to a reasonable point (overnight shifts would probably be a no go) and should provide/facilitate transportation if they can, maybe bring home an application, but stay out of the rest.

    3. irene adler*

      Answer any questions the teenager may have regarding the job seeking process. Maybe give them the Ask A Manager website for reference.
      How else will the teenager learn how to find a job if they are not doing everything themselves?

      1. Hotdog not dog*

        So far I’ve helped him fill out applications and coached him on interviewing. I did refer him to this blog, but I don’t think he’s looked at it. I drove him to one interview. He biked or walked to the others. I also recommended he dress a little nicer than usual. Other than that, I’ve stayed out of it, because I think he needs to learn from experience. Unfortunately, it seems that his friends with more-involved parents are having better luck. What he’s learned so far seems to be that it’s better if you can get your parents to prepare the way for you, which is exactly the opposite of what I believe.

        1. Liz*

          I agree 100% with what you are doing, not what your friend or others have done. Kind of sad that those who got the most help got the jobs. I’d like to think that in the long run, your son will be better of, if he learns now how to negotiate finding a job, so that when he’s done with school and looking for his first “real” job.

        2. Malarkey01*

          I think anything where you the parents have contact with the employer is way too far. I would run from your friend’s kid in a hiring situation.

          I think answering questions, helping with applications (not doing them but answering questions or even reviewing it for edits suggestions), coaching on what to expect/how to interview, and transportation is all fine. The way kids learn is by someone teaching them, so being completely hands off doesn’t work either.
          One question- is your son interested and motivated to find a job? From when I hired teenagers it usually came across who was interviewing because THEY wanted to work and who was doing it because their parents told them they had to get a job but didn’t care. MOST teenage jobs here are taking anyone who applies so it’s not unusual his friends are all getting the first job they applied for.

        3. Sunflowers*

          I think you are taking the right approach. I brainstormed with my daughter (16) on which businesses might be hiring, and she got many more ideas from networking with her friends.
          I did drive her one day of the job search because she was unsure of how to get to that area of town, but I stayed in the car and she walked around town to ask if places were hiring and to fill out applications. One place interviewed her on the spot and then hired her. The other places never got back her. So I’d say have your son just keep trying and ask his friends where they have gotten jobs. I view it as a big learning experience, and that is most important- the experience she got through talking to businesses, applying, interviewing.

    4. Mental Lentil*

      As someone who has hired and managed teenagers in the past, I hire teenagers, not parents.

      Your friend is over the top. I would never hire her son. He will learn nothing from this experience.

      1. Here we go again*

        +1 I won’t work with teenagers ever again. I’d do schedules twice a month, and the part time help always worked the same shifts for simplicity. Employees had weeks to request time off for plans weeks in advance in a calendar by the register, everyone knew where it was. Two days before a shift teenager would say “I can’t work Christmas Eve or the 26th my mom is taking us skiing out of town.” I’d say “Why didn’t you tell me a month ago? You’ve already had 2 no call no shows. If you miss work and call in for this reason you’ll be let go.” She threatened to sick her mom on me. I had to remind her that her paycheck came in her name not her moms, and her responsibility to request time off when needed in a reasonable amount of time in advance. She never showed up for her shift, and mom never called corporate, I think her mom had more sense that to get involved. She was terminated for job abandonment.
        Another parent was great with her kid at work, she even told her daughter about the job and she’d drop off her daughter. But I think teenagers think they can sick their parents on their employer or manager like they can their teachers. But the dynamic is completely different.

      2. Hotdog not dog*

        Her son was hired for the first job she applied to for him. I wouldn’t have hired him either, because it’s not like she’s going to work his shifts!

        1. Here we go again*

          Yeah I wouldn’t hire someone who didn’t fill out the application themselves.

    5. IDK*

      I am in your same situation. I have encouraged my son and given him some suggestions of places to apply, but right now he has no desire. He also has no responsibilities financially at 15, so he drive may come soon with the desire for gas and such.

      My aunt on the other hand, for my cousin who just graduated college, is the one sending out resumes for him. I don’t know if she scheduled the interviews or not, but I still think this is to much. He’s an adult. With an expensive education. He should be able to navigate obtaining a job at this point.

      I think you are doing fine. I get the frustration and we tend to compare ourselves to other parents and where our kids are at points in life, but we shouldn’t. I still have to remind myself of this some times. Our kids will get there. Hopefully when they do, they will know how to stand up for themselves and what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior because they have had to navigate it themselves with only guidance from us and not us doing it for them.

    6. Alex*

      The parent should have no involvement that the employer is aware of.

      The parent can encourage the teen to look for a job (or require it of the teen!), give advice to the teen when asked, like what outfit to wear to the interview, etc., and help figure out transportation. The parent should have no contact with the employer whatsoever.

    7. AnotherAlison*

      My son got his job on his own. He’s 16 (and extremely immature but motivated with a car and expenses). I think timing and networking with their peers are key. He applied in early spring and got a lawn and garden position. The hiring manager told him they need to hire ~20 people so he referred a friend, and that kid had a job soon too. I don’t think it’s appropriate to talk to the hiring manager at all. I don’t hire teenagers, but I would NOT hire someone whose mom did all their negotiation. The exception would be the case where the parent personally knows the business owner or something like that, but the only convo should be to get the foot in the door, not the job details.

      1. allathian*

        Yay, congrats to your son! I bet he’ll mature a lot thanks to working, as well. Having to deal professionally with adults who are neither your parents nor your teachers tends to do that.

    8. D3*

      I’ve brainstormed with them a list of places they could apply, practiced interview questions with them, and helped them fill out their IRS withholding forms and direct deposit forms. That’s the extent of my help with job hunting and hiring.

      1. Hotdog not dog*

        D3, that’s about the extent of it here, too! We talked about what kind of questions to expect in the interview, what kind of questions would be good for him to ask, what to wear…and the first application he did (online) I helped him navigate but he still had to fill it out on his own. We also talked about what he’s good at and enjoys, and what jobs might fit best. I still felt kind of helicopterish.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          To me you sound right on target. All my parents ever said was, “Did you get a job yet?” Zero coaching, nothing, nada. There was never any discussion about what to do with my life, what types of work interested me, etc. Honestly, I don’t think they gave it a moment’s thought. “Your problem, kiddo. Figure it out.”

          I tend to be a fan of handing out fishing poles not fish. I am more like you, “here’s the overall idea, now you try…” type of thing. I do think that you can answer any specific questions he comes up with. And I think looking for him to initiate conversation would be good.

          I think that you are fine and your friend is going to have a long road ahead of her.

          1. allathian*

            Yeah, I agree. I think that things were a bit different when I was looking for my first job in high school in the late 80s. My mom saw an ad in the paper, a local grocery store chain was looking for employees for the summer. I applied, had a short interview (I think they offered a trial period to pretty much everyone who showed up) and got some basic training for a few days and then they assigned me to a store within a few blocks from home. I did well enough that a few weeks before I was due to go back to school, the store manager asked if I’d be interested in doing a few shifts a week during the school year. I accepted and worked about 20 hours a week in my junior and senior year. It has to be said, though, that I didn’t have any extracurriculars, my job was my extracurricular. But I’m also in an area where only academic achievements count for getting into college, so that didn’t bother me.

            I got the job because I wanted Levi’s, and while my parents were willing to buy clothes for me, if I wanted brand name stuff I had to pay for it myself.

    9. Juneybug*

      This is what we did and didn’t do as parents with our teenager son and daughter –
      DID:
      1. Talked to our kids about job responsibilities (show up early or on time, have your uniform clean and ready to go, etc.).
      2. How to research for jobs (newspapers, online, ask others about open positions…).
      3. How to apply for jobs and interview (wear nice dress clothes, fill in out areas of application, practice answers for questions, etc.).
      4. Talked about profession behavior (be present, help others, do not be on your cell phone unless it’s break time, don’t whine, etc.).
      5. What employers can and can’t do (they can not ask you to leave school early for work, they can leave message on your cell while you are in class, they can not be rude to you, they can ask you to clean the bathrooms even if that is not your job, they should have safety procedures in place, etc.).
      6. Encourage them to ask questions to both us and their supervisor (why is my paycheck so low after taxes?, how do I do this task?, etc.).
      DIDN’T DO:
      1. We did not let our children miss school for work. Education was number 1 priority.
      2. We let them work as many hours as they wanted to on the weekends (they had to be home after their 10 PM shift ended on weeknights).
      3. We did not drive our kids to and from work, unless they asked in advance.

      Funny story – our son applied to a fast food restaurant and the manager asked in a snaky manner if he had a resume (which was totally unusual for this position, culture, and time – year 2005). He said no but he would provide one the next day. So we both stayed up late creating his first ever resume (he had asked for my help). Next day, he took his resume to the manager. She was astonished and hired him on the spot (no interview other than to ask what hours he was available). She later told my son that she started doing that as her method of weeding out teenagers who would not put in the effort and therefore, not be hired. She turned out to be a great boss. Our son worked there for two years before joining the military.

      1. Here we go again*

        When it wasn’t working out at my stepdaughters last job I told her of a place I knew that was hiring across the street from where I worked that was always holding open interviews.

      2. ecnaseener*

        Honestly, how obnoxious of that manager. I mean, good for you and your kid, but you shouldn’t have had to stay up late for that when it wasn’t made clear ahead of time. (What about the kids whose parents weren’t available to help, or the kids who didn’t have computer access?)
        As fast food so often goes, this was about hiring someone who’d ask “how high” when told to jump, not about hiring a reasonably dedicated worker.

    10. Happy Lurker*

      I pushed my eldest to apply and get a summer job. They did one shift and were not called back. It was customer service. My eldest child disliked it. The following summer eldest WANTED a job. I reached out to contacts and got them a job. It was manual labor and the kind of job they wanted. They excelled at it for 2 consecutive summers. So much so, that my contact made a point of stopping me and telling me what a good job eldest did.

      My middle wanted a job with different contacts and I refused. I wanted them to get their own job. Middle got a job and worked for 3 weeks of very sporadic training, unpaid. Came home crying after first full shift. Place was toxic. I made them quit immediately, no one should be treated they way they were treated. I reached out to contacts and got middle a job. Middle was there for 3 summer in a row.
      After getting both my children the jobs initially, I never had contact with employers again. I do help the kids behind the scenes with phrasing texts for time off, etc. I do drive them to and from work, when needed. Neither place even had a job application. Although, I have helped with prior applications.
      Hotdog friend sounds pretty involved. I am more hands off than that. My eldest says I am the apache helicopter parent. I am hovering around somewhere out of sight, but ready to fly in and support or rescue at a moments notice. ;)
      *Note: both employers were small businesses, not a grocery or department store or chain with specific hiring procedures.

    11. Katie*

      I’d say somewhere in between the two approaches. I can see deciding what job (esp. if you’re going to be the one driving) and filling out the application (but having your kid sit with you while you do it, explaining what you’re doing). But meeting with the manager and negotiating salary is too far.

      Also, I think it depends on the age of the kid. The younger they are, the more help I would give them.

      Also also, getting a job and working a job are two different skill sets. What is your main end goal? If it’s that your kid has a summer job, giving them more help seems legit. They can learn how to WORK the job, and next time learn how to apply for another job. If it’s that they learn how to apply for a job/get a job, then more coaching/less overt doing is the way to go.

      1. Katie*

        Also also also, if it’s really important to you and your kid that they have a summer job this year, you could give yourself a time limit to try the less hands on way and see if that garners a job, and then after that time limit, switch to more hands on help, and see if that results in a job.

  20. Alice*

    This week has been my first at NewJob, and I’m so glad I took the plunge! It’s still early days, but everyone has been so very helpful and friendly, and training is genuinely interesting! I’m very tired but also happy. :)

    As a bonus this position is mostly remote, I went into the office on Monday but I’ve been home the rest of the week, and next week will be WFH too. It was one of my big motivations for leaving… My commute is now two hours rather than 10 minutes, but I’d rather go into the office when there’s a real business need rather than being there all the time because management likes to see butts in seats.

    No real question, just glad to have this community, the interview advice and scripts for tricky situations are invaluable.

  21. Anon E. Moose*

    Hi all, I posted in the thread at the end of May about an internal job I had applied for and had decided not to take. I was asking if I should wait and see if they chose me (and possibly see about a counter-offer) or withdraw. I used the weekend to confirm my decision not to take it and was going to withdraw when I returned to work on Tuesday (holiday). Before I could, I found out in the morning that they had contacted my references so I went ahead and withdrew my application ASAP so they could shift gears. They were disappointed (as I was their first choice) but understood my reasoning.

    I am happy with my decisioow n, it was nice to and they were able to hire someone else in time!

    1. Anon E. Moose*

      ETA due to browser hiccup: I am happy with my decision, it was nice to know they had chosen me without putting them in a tough spot, and they were able to hire someone else in time!

  22. Ace in the Hole*

    How many plants is too many for the office?

    I have setup with a corner desk in a small open plan office (4 other people work in the room). I also like plants. Right now I have three small potted plants on my desk, a trailing vine on top of my filing cabinet, and a small (12″ pot, total height under 4 ft, not very bushy) Monster Plant on the floor in the corner.

    Is this too many? My plants are all out of the way, don’t block any walkways or access to anything, but I don’t want to be the crazy plant lady.

    1. Long Furby*

      Totally dependent on your workplace. My small cube farm has a row of windows stuffed with plants. Like 10+. We got an email the summer I started about being more careful with watering schedules as we got gnats, but other than that, no one seems to care. There appears to be leniency for our non public facing basement dwelling dept.

    2. 12312312*

      As long as they are out of the way and don’t block anything and aren’t a nusiance. I see nothing wrong with being the crazy plant lady :) Now if youre unable to properly use your desk, thats another thing. There has been a crazy plant lady or man everywhere I’ve worked. I’ve had some odd comments but generally I think the plants bring people some joy, or otherwise atleast breaks up their day a little.

    4. Joielle*

      I think that sounds fine, but I am admittedly a crazy plant lady. As long as you have enough space on your desk to actually work, and you don’t spend hours a week caring for them, that would be fine everywhere I’ve worked!

    5. Kimmy Schmidt*

      My officemate has about a dozen plants. Other than the occasional person who stops in to ask her about the plants and plant care, it doesn’t seem to matter at all.

    6. Hotdog not dog*

      As long as they’re healthy and cared for, not taking up so much room that you can’t work effectively, and not so numerous as to create a distraction, they’re fine!

    7. Anonymous Hippo*

      I have that many stuffed animals on my desk, and I’m pretty sure plants are more “office appropriate” than stuffies lol. Doesn’t sound like a problem to me.

    8. JimmyJab*

      As long as you don’t allow them to get pests – this happened in my office and that led to folks wanting to ban all plants. PS, I’m a plant obsessed lady and realize sometimes plants get pests and you can’t do much about it.

    9. Coenobita*

      I was the crazy plant lady at a previous workplace and nobody cared. For a couple years, I sat in a converted conference room that was basically a greenhouse (it occasionally hit 90F in the summer, even with A/C) so I figured I might as well take advantage of it!

      My advice: keep in mind what will happen if/when you quit, go on leave, or move offices. My previous job moved office buildings three times in eight years and it was a pain in the butt moving all my plants from place to place!

  23. No Tribble At All*

    Advice for applying for a mentoring program? My (huge) org has a formal mentorship program where you fill in an application form and they match you up. I’m thinking about applying as a mentee, but most of what I want to get out of the mentorship is advice on how to move to other jobs at this organization. My current role has a cool mission but boring day-to-day and to be honest was kind of a step back for me (which I knew! I just wanted to get my foot in the door at Org). So, most of what I want is “learn more about different roles and responsibilities and how to move into those” since I haven’t been able to meet those people in person and talk to them.

    How do I put that down as my reason for wanting mentoring? I don’t want to sound like I have one foot out the door– I don’t at all! I just want to move up out of this entry-level role.

    1. elle*

      I think TONS of people get into mentoring for advice on career progression – that’s not unusual at all! And that’s encouraged at many companies (like my current company) where moving people up and around is highly valued. As long as you frame as progressing in your career within the org, that shouldn’t stand out as unusual or “one foot out the door” at a reasonable organization.

    2. Employee of the Bearimy*

      This is what you call “career path guidance.” It’s a very understandable reason for wanting mentoring and it’s probably one of the main reasons your company offers it. It won’t look odd to write it that way.

    3. Zidy*

      In addition to what elle and Bearimy have said, if you’re worried about sounding like you’re job searching, just put in something about how you love the company and its mission, but you’d hoping to get a better understanding of all the moving parts and hope a mentor will help guide you through this. And then go into the whole career pathing stuff.

    5. Fran Fine*

      Say exactly what you just said here – seriously. That’s what their mentorship program is likely for. The company would rather you learned from a mentor about other positions in the company and possibly apply to one of their open roles in the future instead of leaving altogether. I applied to my company’s formal mentoring program early last year because I was in your exact same spot, was accepted, and then was promoted effective this week into another role in another division thanks to a tip from my mentor!

  24. Your friendly neighborhood Zen Buddhist*

    What do you do after your dream dies?

    I changed careers recently from my “dream” career that I got my two degrees in and found a lot of purpose in. However, it wasn’t really a “dream” after awhile (last job was pretty terrible) and I’m not sure I’d ever want to go back. Now I’m working in a better paying, much more stable job and feeling a bit lost. Has anyone ever gone through something similar?

    1. kbeers0su*

      Yessss. I was in a field that required a lot of after-hours and on-call work, everything was a priority to higher-ups (but not really) and we were constantly putting out fires that were really just minor things that some person didn’t like. BUT I loved the core work and had a degree in the field. I switched fields a year ago to something adjacent, but with better pay, strict 9-5 hours, and where the work is rarely urgent. It’s weird, but I think it’s because I’m less emotionally invested because my “clientele” are not as in-need as my previous set of clientele. So it feels…like less important work? I’m trying to adjust using Alison’s many articles about toxic workplaces/toxic behaviors in workplaces to remind myself that the things I described in the beginning of this post are not ok.

    2. Grace*

      You find ways to enjoy the parts of the dream you like/love, but outside of a work context, if that makes sense.

      In my case, I discovered that working all the time with the thing I loved made me start to avoid the thing I loved outside of work. It turned something I had loved into a chore. I was lucky enough to get into a different field, and now I can happily enjoy the thing I loved once more without it feeling like WORK.

    3. elle*

      I am going through this exact thing right now. My ‘dream’ required being an entrepreneur and sadly that meant that when I needed to get back into normal employment it counted against me and I had to start even lower on the pay scale than I was at 21 right out of college. It’s been 2.5 years now and I’ve worked my way up to the exact job I had right out of college and I’m trying to redefine my goals and career from here on out.

      One option is deciding to compartmentalize work as just work, and not such a huge part of my identity as it was before. Thinking about work as serving me, providing me with stable income without too much stress so I can be happy and fulfilled in other ways.

    4. longtimelurker*

      Yes. I’m working using my degree but basically found out interning during my masters that my chosen career path was very underpaid and underappreciated, as well as being difficult to get into. It’s a struggle when a lot of my colleagues etc still think I should be somewhere “better” (read more prestigious) but like… sometimes it’s ok for the dream to die.

    5. BRR*

      This is going to sound harsh but have lower expectations with your job/career. And I’m speaking from experience with that. Look for fulfillment outside of work.

    6. JRR*

      In my life the answer was, “Get a hobby.”

      I left college with the expectation of eventually landing a dream job related to my science degree. But now in my 40s I find myself in a generic 9-5 office job. The upside is it leaves me with enough of time, money and energy to pursue music as a hobby.

      Even though I don’t make much money at it, I’ve come to think of my hobby as my primary occupation. Which is way better than having a dream job.

    7. RagingADHD*

      Think deeper about what drew you to that career, and look for other types of work that can be use your sttengths in an equally meaningful way.

      Or, in metaphorical terms, dream more. You don’t just get one dream in life, you can dream all kinds of things.

      1. Fran Fine*

        You don’t just get one dream in life, you can dream all kinds of things.

        I love this, and it’s so true.

    8. Hillary*

      Yes. Try to give yourself space to grieve for the dream, you’ll find new ones soon. I felt lost for a while when I went from a toxic job to a reasonable one. It took months to internalize that I wasn’t at the awful place anymore, then everything else started opening up mentally.

    9. Frankie Bergstein*

      This was and is me. I feel like I’m still in the transition. It was hard at first, and I still feel it some days — I miss the idea of a career that I had. But I have spare time, spare money, and low-stress. I wouldn’t have had that with my “dream” career. I’ve never had so many resources available to me (i.e., time, money, social connections from living in one place) before.

      Thinking of my job as just a job and investing more in my personal life than ever before (friends, community, health, marriage, local mutual aid, activism, creative hobbies) is the balance I’m trying to strike. I’m not there quite yet. My inclination is to volunteer and use all of those resources to give back, and I’m doing that (see above, mutual aid) but it feels like there’s something I’m missing.

      Overall, I am enjoying it though! I’m not really looking back at those dysfunctional, high-stress “dream” jobs. I think my disappointment is less than I gave up on my dream job/field, but that the system we all live in makes my dream career so incredibly unlivable. It’s such important work!

      For me, there’s lots of camping, reading, naps, peaceful mornings, meeting new folks (still mostly online), and I’m okay with seeing how this goes for awhile.

    10. Teapot supervisor*

      In addition to what others have said about compartmentalizing work, there’s also accepting that dreams evolve. It’s perfectly ok for goals to shift as priorities do. I’ve shift my career more towards back office and, yes, I miss being on the front line. It’s where all the action is! But it also comes with longer hours, job insecurity and lower pay (at least per hour actually worked – some frontline jobs pay way more than my back office one but the person doing also never sleeps). And my life right now is in a place where that’s just not a trade-off I want to make.

      It’s worth looking at the comments on here to the ‘I keep breaking my own heart by turning down great job offers’ question from 2019. Lots of the commentators on there make the point I’m trying to make much more eloquently than I am right now!

    11. Not So NewReader*

      “What do you do after your dream dies?”

      I decided I needed to be more reality based. I needed to be able to put into words what I needed in a job and what were deal breakers. For some reason this was hard for me.

      I think that daydreams give us clues, they can point the way to what we are naturally good at, where we are happiest, the types of environments that help us to grow and other key things.

      I do think that listening to others around us can help. “Oh you are so good at x!” or “Wow, how did you do y so fast?” or “Thanks for the help on z, you really bailed us out!” Don’t blow by these comments in passing. Pay attention. Look for common threads.

    12. Anono-me*

      Volunteer.

      When I was very young, I wanted a very different career than the one I have (which I also love). But all the ancillary stuff was a total nightmare and only getting worse. And the pay was peanuts. So I built a career and volunteered in my passion. When I retire, I hope to step up my volunteering. (A nice thing about volunteering in a chronically underserved and underfunded area is that smart organizations treat credentialed volunteers like gold.)

    13. tamarack and fireweed*

      Maybe this is something you can relate to… I was initially on a super-academic, highly abstract path. I knew it was competitive, but I frankly had no idea what that meant and no notion that as the first person in my immediate family to graduate from college there was a lot that I didn’t even know I didn’t know. I was brought up in the ethos of “if you’re good enough, they’ll want you”. And I always had been “good enough”. Then I went into a graduate program, preparing for what I thought was my dream job…. and pretty much wilted away. Became depressed. Didn’t know what to do about it. Yadda, yadda. Dropped out, jobbed to get a teaching qualification, tried teaching and again, it didn’t work out.

      I took it *very* hard that the academic/scholarly world had, apparently, not just rejected me but, as I felt it, chewed me up, spit me out, and ground me into the dust.

      A path forward was needed, though, and I looked to the tech industry. I had skills, but they were scattershot, and I had no formal credentials in practical technology applications. Some friends helped me get some basic understanding how to fill some of the gaps. But I was a far cry from being anywhere close to the top of the heap. I entered through tech support, working for a mediocre company on an at-best-mediocre product. But it was a proper tech company, and I learned *so*much* about how industry works, how to be a techie. I describe it as the time of embracing mediocrity. My instincts helped, but I had to deal with a lot of condescension from people with better qualifications though not necessarily great skills/instincts. But I got recognition. Was laid off after 4 years, got another,, better, tech job quite easily.

      Then I wanted to get to a different geographical area, and the best way was to apply for tech jobs at a university. I got one, with the operations of a research station. And after a year I was pulled in again toward the science side. Very different than the first time – extremely applied science. Very much building on my tech industry skills, though I’m using my old credentials too.

      Obviously now I’m far from being the bright young early-career thing – still early career, but not young at all, and not mobile like my early-career peers. So who knows if I will stick in this line of academic research – but I know that I can go back to the tech industry, skills-wise. Even if it were to be a step-down in prestige, it would pay better too :-) .

      So I’ve left behind the idea of dream job. I *do* want to do meaningful work, and I do prefer to work on something that helps people deal with natural hazards, or increases our understanding of some natural phenomeon to helping Nestlé do better marketing, but I’m not wedded to one way of having a fulfilling career.

    14. Kinship*

      For me: therapy.

      I needed support to grieve my dream. I needed dedicated time and space to process becoming a different person than the one I thought I’d become. I needed help reframing all of it to understand that a career doesn’t define me, or make me lovable, or make me worthy, and to get in touch with what I *do* value now.

      Maybe that resonates for you, maybe it doesn’t. Personally I was extremely successful in the new career and still needed a LOT of help to make sense of it all.

    15. Wordybird*

      All I ever wanted to do growing up was become a writer. In high school and early college, I dreamed of living in NYC as an editor for a major publishing company. Then I met my ex, and I got married instead the day after I graduated from college. I spent the next 15 years raising children and trying to extricate myself from that relationship. I worked off-and-on during the marriage but nothing steady or on a career path.

      I’m now in my 40s and while I have a job that pays the bills and is communications-adjacent, it is not being a writer or an editor. Obviously, things have changed a lot in publishing since I graduated from college so that’s not an industry to pursue now, anyways. There are lots of things that I wish I could or would have done in my 20s and 30s, personally and professionally, but it is what it is.

      I can either continue to mourn the dreams that died or give life to new ones. I have to be intentional about reframing it that way but it does help. I am more than just my job so while I can’t have that particular dream anymore, I can have different job-related ones and/or I can have other dreams that my non-dream job makes possible.

      1. jolene*

        Anyways, plenty of us are writers and editors and do very well out of it! Why do you think it’s “not an industry to pursue”?

  25. Binky*

    Interview Question – how do you talk about thoughts/plans that stem from a prior employer’s failures without sounding unprofessional? 

    I’m preparing for an interview for a job that’s very tangential to my career so far. Basically an HR position for the job I had previously had. I’m super interested in this role in part because the company I’m interviewing with seems to have spotted and attempted to address many of the issues I had with my last company. But when I think of trying to explain my interest, or some of my thought processes or prior work, I’m having trouble phrasing them without throwing my former employer under the bus. Things like – I advocated for the hiring of a minority intern, and ran into roadblocks that led to her not being hired, so I think it’s important to address those roadblocks by X, Y, Z to prevent such problems or I saw women taking and returning from maternity leave deal with these hurdles, and I’d address that by A, B, C, etc. 

    I was laid off from my last job due to Covid, so I want to be especially careful about not seeming bitter. I actually really liked a lot of the people at my last company, and I’m using some of them as references, but they just lacked systems that they really needed. It was incredibly frustrating at the time, and I actually did some advocating to put some systems in place before I was laid-off. I just don’t know how to talk about the advocacy without getting too much into the frustration. Help?

    1. elle*

      I personally would say things like “I’m attracted to your company because I noticed you do a great job at X, and I’ve worked at places that aren’t as far ahead at that s you are and seen how important it is” type of statement — not naming any company, not even bringing up specifics of exact bad situations.

    2. Reba*

      You don’t even have to compare it to previous workplaces *at all* to get this idea across.
      “I’m interested in working at a place that is walking the walk on inclusive policies”
      “It’s important to me that my workplace reflect the makeup of my community and actively develop marginalized talent”

      1. Binky*

        The issue is that the role itself would focus on issues of inclusion and equity. I’m trying to figure out how best to show that I’ve recognized problems and advocated for solutions during my career, and thus would be a good fit for the role, without speaking too negatively about prior employers. Some of my answer to “tell me about a time” questions would be totally neutral, but some of the stuff that I think speaks most strongly to my dedication to equity came up because of my previous employer’s failures.

        1. Reba*

          Ah, I was imagining like a “why do you want to work here” question.

          For a question about your experience, I think the way you phrased it in your post is perfectly fine and not accusatory. You could phrase things as being a bit distanced or passive-voice — so not, “my manager blocked this” but “unfortunately, the systems were not set up to [whatever], this showed me that my advocacy alone without support wasn’t going to be enough to accomplish [goals].” I don’t think it’s bad-mouthing!

          1. HelenofWhat*

            I completely agree here! I would see it as a plus that you can speak to what structures were needed and what you would’ve liked to see.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          You might be able to turn it into something you read or heard from a friend and thus avoid mentioning your old company.

          OR you could treat it as answering this question, “How did you move your company from awkward or unethical situation x, in a manner that was digestible and caused people to change what they were doing?”
          This could be a question about gracefulness or your ability to get groups of people going in the same direction.

          Remember you do not have to use the worst examples you have in order to make your point. This is a pit I fall into. I always think that I have to talk about Really Tough Situation A in order to drive my points home and ace the interview. That’s just not true. I can talk about Moderate Situation B and still make the same point. You don’t have to review the toughest things you have ever faced.

        3. Gloucesterina*

          I feel that especially that if the role is explicitly a DEI role, the interviewers will be prepared and eager to hear about your story about why you care about this work and are interested in the position.

          They will recognize that you intentionally recognizing barriers to equity in any given organization or position doesn’t equal you willfully badmouthing–you are giving these examples in order to supply substantive information about you as a candidate and your personal understanding of what being successful in this area entails. It also gives you an opportunity to gauge whether your definition of “success” and theirs are on the same page, same planet, etc. which is pretty crucial info for you.

    3. not a doctor*

      For prior work examples, I’d just talk about the things *you* actively did. You advocated for the hiring of a minority intern, period. You helped women returning from maternity leave do XYZ. You were developing a program for ABC, etc.

      If they do ask about the ultimate outcome, you can say, “Unfortunately, circumstances [in another department, higher up the company, beyond my control, etc.] led to that internship going unfilled, but–” and either pivot to something concrete you have an outcome for, or something you created/planned for the internship if it had happened.

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        Agree with this — the challenges in diverse hiring and parental leave are well known, so you can say “I worked to identify and eliminate roadblocks in hiring diverse candidates for our internship program” — “I worked to facilitate return to work after parental leave by doing XYZ.” If they ask you about your success, you can say mild things like “unfortunately, there were other priorities and not everything was implemented” or whatever.

    4. Soup of the Day*

      I think you can phase it as “I’m passionate about X and I’m excited to see that your company has a dedicated history of working on these issues,” and just be vague about your past experience – like “this is something I’ve seen a lot of people struggle with in the past/something that’s in the news a lot/something I know is important for workplace culture” without mentioning a specific past employer. At that point they’re free to ask you to elaborate if they want to hear more, but you’re keeping the approach positive instead of focusing on someone else’s negatives.

    5. RagingADHD*

      I have seen firsthand how difficult it can be to implement a strong culture of X in practical ways, and I’m excited about the ways your company has approached it.

  26. Mouse*

    I’m curious about whether your companies are seeing evidence of the “Great Resignation”. We’ve had pretty high turnover lately and I’m wondering if it’s an Us Problem or if there really is a more large-scale pattern. Are you seeing high turnover? Are your companies hiring a lot? Are you having a hard time finding candidates?

    1. Long Furby*

      One department at my workplace is nearing 100% turnover, and we’re not the only one at or organization. Hard to say on hiring though, I’m not involved in that part.

    2. elle*

      My company pays well, has good benefits and a pretty great culture – especially a culture of encouraging moving around within the company until you find the right fit. We aren’t seeing mass resignations at all, and we just did an engagement survey that came back with close to 90% satisfaction over many thousands of employees. I think if companies are seeing mass resignations that would have been avoidable if they had made themselves a good place to work.

      2. LKW*

        Completely agree. My company has seen the same level of attrition in prior years. While some people are excited to get back to face to face engagement, the company has done a lot to keep us engaged while fully remote.

    3. Malarkey01*

      Just for context- white collar office company with above average salaries and employees skew older. We went 100% remote March 2020 (with the exception of a handful of building maintenance people responsible for keeping the buildings stable) and they were extremely flexible with schedules to accommodate childcare. We actually saw less turnover this year, BUT as we start to talk about returning to the office in some hybrid capacity in the fall we’re seeing a huge number of people who have announced end of year retirements (like quadruple normal numbers and it’s early for people to be making plans known). Some of that is the age demo here in general, but it sounds like a lot of eligible people just don’t want to go back once the flexibility goes away.

      1. Junimo the Hutt*

        We went 50% remote in March 2020 because people still needed to work in the labs (with great flexibility), but my company also skews older. I’ve never attended that many (virtual for me) retirement parties in a single year as I have during the pandemic. And come to think of it, most of them were from the staff working on-site throughout…

        On the other hand, we did get slammed and had to triple our output at the beginning of the pandemic, so I don’t know if it was pandemic-related or if it was no end in sight to needing lots of overtime to compensate + a bit of an inadvertent hiring freeze that caused it.

      2. Fran Fine*

        Since March 2020, my company has seen a ton of retirements too. Like you, I think these are people nearing retirement age (or are already there), and they just don’t want to deal with possibly coming back to work in an office. Many of the retirees’ bios on our intranet site say they plan to travel, so there’s that.

    4. TiffIf*

      I’m in software and we’ve had 4 developers resign in the past 6 months. Even though they’re hiring it doesn’t make up the gap (because of ramp up/training time) so our head of development has had to tell product that some of the things they want are needing to be pushed back 6 months because of it.

    5. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

      My department has lost 6 analysts in the last couple of months. There was a hiring freeze for most of 2020 and they were incredibly overworked/understaffed, with a boss with no institutional knowledge who started one week before everyone got sent home to work remotely (our office just opened up this past week).

      I’m pretty sure these folks were just biding their time until Covid numbers started going down and the job market rebounded, and now that that’s happened in our area they are running for the hills.

      1. Tired Accountant*

        There has been quite a bit of turnover where I work, accountants and engineers mostly. We were treated like crap the past year, then the company culture wasn’t great to begin with so people are taking advantage of new jobs being posted. I’m working on finding a new job and can’t wait to put in my notice.

    6. Elle*

      Yes. I work for a public health non profit which has always had grant funded low paying jobs. People are quitting with low pay the reason for leaving. There’s always been an understanding that the jobs are low pay but with cost of living so high people can’t do it anymore.

      1. Alexis Rosay*

        Same. I work for a youth development nonprofit and while salary has been part of why many people have left in the past, for the first time we had someone resign specifically because of the salary. I hope this is a wake-up call for the leadership.

      2. JelloStapler*

        Exactly. Our organization has not in any way kept up with COL and we’re below market rate as is- people are getting tired of it and the “mission” is not enough.

    7. JelloStapler*

      We started having turnover issues even before the pandemic but it is certainly continuing at a rapid pace. A lot of it just has to do with our industry and organization, workload and salary issues as well as the response of our administration to all these issues.

    8. Irish girl*

      Yes, we are feeling it right now. It seems like in the first 6 month of the pandemic, no one left and then there was this rush of people moving jobs internally and externally. There are so many jobs open on the career site right now. My whole team is new compared to what it was last year in July including a new manager. This is all happening before we have even fully reopened to in person work and our company hasn’t forced on-mass people to work any specific way.

    9. mediamaven*

      Very very high turnover. Our industry has always had an issue but right now it’s insane. The recruiters are out there and there’s not much that can be done to curtail it.

    10. Chaordic One*

      During the pandemic our turnover rate dropped. We implemented WFH and I think that then, people were just happy to have a job and happy to stay put. Since people started getting vaccinated, beginning in May or so, we’ve seen more resignations than usual, but I suspect that many of those people would have resigned sooner if not for the pandemic. It seems to be a case of pent-up desire to resign resulting in more resignations than usual now.

      My workplace is hiring a lot for reasons that have nothing to do with the pandemic. They are having problems finding as many qualified candidates as they would like. To compensate they are now hiring a lot of people who are not as well-qualified as they would like. The new hires are still “qualified.” They are NOT “unqualified.” However, they are not “as qualified” as the people doing the hiring would like.

      I think this is going to work out O.K. The new hires might require a bit more training and hand-holding to get them fully on board but, as a bonus, we seem to now be hiring a more diverse group of people. Yay!

    11. Generic Name*

      Yes. We’ve had several folks leave to move “back east” to be closer to family. We are very remote friendly, and two people are able to work remotely from their new states, but at least one person wanted to keep working for us but did too much fieldwork to be able to work from another state. I think the pandemic has really made people realize that being near family is important to them.

    12. MissDisplaced*

      Yes. I work for a large company and first it was furloughs, then layoffs, and in the last few months since the new year, a lot of quitting. Overall, the company treated people well during the Pandemic, but I think a lot of people are just moving on to other roles. Ours is not a growing or exciting industry.

    13. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I’ve noticed that a lot of the people who were less than 5 years to expected retirement have all suddenly decided to retire now rather than later; about the pre-pandemic average amount of turnover in the aged 35-59 crowd; and a lot of turn over in the younger than 35 group.

    15. The Dude Abides*

      In my old department, I left in March, big boss (who started right as the pandemic hit) retired in May, and boss (who started in August) is leaving.

      The head of HR is terrible and slow, and her slowness has had real consequences – my old role doesn’t even have a temp (which is one reason my boss cited in leaving), and the role I’m in now was vacant for well over a year because the offers made to the first round of interviewees came so late that every single one had already taken jobs elsewhere.

    16. Decidedly Me*

      No turnover issues. Hiring has been harder, though. We’re getting a lot more applicants that are bad fits and places we used to advertise jobs on don’t seem to have the same types of candidates looking anymore (or maybe it’s just harder to sort though with the increased volume of applicants).

    17. Fran Fine*

      My company is hiring a lot, and I just got promoted and transferred to another department because of it. I’m not sure about resignations or how hard it may or may not be to hire for our open roles, but I don’t imagine there are a ton of the former – I’m in tech and my company has always been open to working from home (I’ve been fully remote for over two years now), and as far as I know, no one is being forced back into our offices per a mandate from HR that says that people need to use their own discretion in this area. If anyone is concerned or not ready to come back, HR has said they need to work with their manager to come up with a remote game plan until they do feel comfortable going back in.

    18. asteramella*

      My org is experiencing extremely high turnover. Some of the turnover is explicitly due to employees realizing as we return to the office that they’d really prefer fully remote roles. However, I think upper leadership is blaming too much of the turnover on the pandemic. A lot of turnover is among more tenured staff who are unhappy with some unrelated decisions my org is taking. (I am one of the longest tenured employees in my department, and I’m job-hunting as well, for reasons that have nothing to do with the pandemic or the state of our industry as a whole.)

    19. Wordybird*

      I work for a small company (less than 20 people) that lost 1 manager, 1 associate, and 2 newcomers (less than 3 months) this past year. I’m not sure that they were directly COVID-related but 2 of them were because they were able to secure more money elsewhere which could be because of COVID turnover at those other companies and/or because my former coworkers’ partners were financially affected by COVID.

      I’m not part of hiring for the departments those people left so I don’t know if our candidate pool was affected in any way but we have replaced all of them + hired more people since the pandemic began.

  27. GigglyPuff*

    Is there a really well known online Project Management certification? Like an association? Or well regarded/universal online learning site? Instead of just a random one through a random e-learning site. My job is individual project management (as in my own projects assigned to me), but to move up, most of those jobs are heavily project management over multiple people either as manager or just involving more units than I currently deal with. So thinking about taking some classes to get a more formal project management mindset.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I have a Project+ cert. It would be more of a beginners PM cert, but CompTIA is a reputable company so it hold a little bit of weight. CompTIA is more about IT.technical programs, but the Project+ cert was more generalized to project management methods, calculating ROI, and teamwork methods. I actually learned quite a bit from the program.

    4. Mouse*

      Check out the Project Management Institute (PMI), you can find a ton of info on their site!

    5. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      PMI (Project Management Institute) is the international organization widely recognized as setting the standard for traditional project management. For agile/scrum, I believe it’s the SCRUM Alliance. Both organizations should be able to direct you to resources for taking courses either in person on online to prepare for their certification tests.

      1. tamarack and fireweed*

        Good point. If this is for software development, one of the tech-specific ones may be better suited.

    6. tamarack and fireweed*

      PMP for the US. Prince II for the UK. There are other national certifying bodies if you’re elsewhere.

      But PMP is highly recognized internationally as well.

      (These can be quite different in the details btw.)

  28. Requesting to reclassify a firing*

    Reclassifying a firing as a layoff: What does this look like? How is it done?

    I was fired from a prior job, in retrospect—and obviously this is from my perspective—due to mismatched and uncommunicated expectations for the role that I wasn’t able to identify and therefore try to salvage in time. Nothing catastrophic, though my supervisor seems to have painted an unflattering picture of my work to HR. There was no PIP or other process attempting course correction leading up to the firing, and I did not have the opportunity to respond to anything my supervisor might have submitted as documentation or justification.

    I learned at the time this happened that I’m eligible for rehire, and have since learned that no one was ever hired as backfill in that role. A new position, with very different job description, was created on the team instead. (As an aside, I’m far from the only one who had trouble working under that supervisor—as far as I know they were new to managing when I joined the team, so perhaps others/HR now have a better sense of what kind of manager they are than was the case a handful of years ago.)

    I’ve seen advice here before to ask if the employer can reclassify the termination as a layoff in some situations, and I’d like to do so because it does seem like the team was restructured somewhat at the time of my departure. What should someone in my position include in an ask for this? From an HR perspective, what would make a compelling case?

    1. LadyByTheLake*

      Can you help us understand what you think you would gain by this reclassification? You didn’t fit the role, you were let go, you are eligible for rehire (which is awesome), but this WAS a firing.

      1. Requesting to reclassify a firing*

        Applications sometimes ask about ever being fired, or reasons for leaving specific jobs. I’d like to avoid checking the “I’ve been fired” box, and I think “Changing expectations for the role/position was eliminated” accurately sums up why the job ended when it did regardless of how it’s classified, though I’d prefer transparency by including the nature of the departure.

        I’m trying to suss out the extent to which the advice I’ve seen on this site (that reclassification is possible in some situations) could apply here, since the “Well, it WAS a firing” impulse could also apply in those other situations as well, and if possible, how to go about it.

        1. LadyByTheLake*

          You just check the box for “I’ve been fired” and add that explanation. It’s a bad question, but they are really looking for people who stole, were fired for chronic lateness etc. I think of layoffs as RIF due to elimination of departments/consolidations/budget cuts etc. and that’s not what’s going on here. Or maybe I misunderstood the scenario. I’ve been let go a few times for bad fit, and it hasn’t harmed me in the least.

  29. Ama*

    Does anyone have recommendations for good online classes/tutorial videos for fairly basic level Microsoft Office Suite skills? I have a new report who is eager but inexperienced with PCs and there are things she doesn’t know how to do that are so basic I just can’t predict them (for example, we just had a morning of confusion because she messed up the time on an Outlook calendar invite, but sent a new one instead of either deleting the old one or just changing the time on the original, and also somehow managed to leave me off the new one so I didn’t know we had an issue until *my* boss asked why she had three invites for the same meeting on her calendar). We’ve had similar very basic issues with Excel and Word (she once told me “Word won’t let me open this file” when it was just one of the standard pop ups that happen when you download a file off the internet and it was just checking that you wanted to proceed).

    Once she understands she can do something, she’s fine but she clearly needs some material that will walk her through the basic functionality of these programs and we don’t have an IT staff with bandwidth to even recommend training resources much less develop them themselves. Programs with a one-time cost would be okay (I have a small professional development budget) but stuff that’s stuck in a subscription only service like Lynda/Linked In won’t work because my employer isn’t willing to sign up for those.

    Any advice would be welcome!

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Is getting some Dummies books from the public library not going to work for some reason?

      1. D3*

        Books get real outdated real fast. The publishing cycle + the library purchasing cycle means everything on the shelf software wise is very likely to be way out of date. I would never try to use a book from the library to learn software.

    2. asdfsdf*

      Is there someone on her team who could be the dedicated go-to for her to ask questions? Someone patient that doesn’t mind basic questions and is happy to help.

      1. elle*

        Agree – designate her a “mentor” or something that can help her. When I was new to an office environment I definitely needed help with basic stuff like that as well as things like “how do we sign off on our emails?” and other basic office culture things. It’s also a great development opportunity for the non-managerial person to get some training responsibilities in a soft and easy way to add to their resume and their skills.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Microsoft has a reasonably robust (as far as I can tell) training and support site that’s probably worth looking at, if it’s specifically Office you want her to learn more about. Not dropping a link into moderation, but I got there just by putting “Microsoft Office training” into Google.

      1. CoffeeIsMyFriend*

        I was about to say this as a place to start if it really is basic stuff.

        If you Google “How to ___________ Microsoft Office” you’ll get some pretty good resources. Granted she has to know what she needs to know in order to do this herself…but it may save you some time if you only have to give her the key words to google or if you/a mentor does the search and send the link it to here.
        As a college prof, I had to learn that many of my students have minimal computer skills applicable to school/work and aren’t great at trouble shooting or even knowing where to look, so over the years I’ve made documents with links to directions for how to do basic things.
        As she finds useful resources, I strongly recommend she make up a document both for herself but for future employees with similar needs. Maybe make up a shared document for her (and anyone else) do drop resources into?

    4. Chilipepper Attitude*

      I will put a link to a free service, GCF Learn Free – they have a microsoft class(es).
      But her local library might have a subscription to LinkedIn Learning and they have lots of microsoft clases that she can do for free with a free library card. Everyone should be getting a card and using LinkedIn Learning if their library has it!

    5. university admin from home*

      My public library has access to Lynda, so it might be worth checking what resources your local library system(s) have for this kind of thing? (I think mine also offers very intro level classes like you want, but I suspect that is more likely to vary, since it requires staff to run.)

    6. JP in the heartland*

      I’ve worked at places that offered LinkedIn Learning (used to be called Linda, I think), and I heard the classes were pretty good and the price reasonable.

    7. beach read*

      I once took an intro class during the summer at our community college. They offer all sorts of non credit courses that aren’t overly expensive.

  30. Daisy Wooton*

    Any suggestions from readers regarding their preferred “slow paced” careers?? I’m combing job listings these days for admin and program coordinator jobs, and the phrase “fast paced environment” sets my teeth on edge. I just don’t enjoy that type of work anymore. But what does that leave me?? Any insights? Or is this something I have to consider on a job by job basis?

    1. No Tribble At All*

      Employer by employer basis — typically government is more relaxed than industry, even if you’re a contractor and not a “true” federal employee.

      1. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

        Employer by employer basis I agree. Because I disagree that the government is a slow paced environment. The government program I’m on is super fast-paced.

    2. D3*

      “fast paced environment” = you’ll be expected to do miracles like produce 60 hours of work in a 40 hour work week. Deadlines will be unrealistic.

    3. StudentA*

      I’d like an answer to this too. Everywhere I apply and everywhere I’ve worked is “fast-paced” and want everything yesterday.

    5. Generic Name*

      The federal government is very slow paced. Anything that’s a big bureaucracy that uses a ton of processes tends to be slow paced.

      1. A Fed*

        Depends. I work at fed government agency. There are many times we work nights and weekends (without overtime pay or comp time for the most part). Some of our folks recently spent two years working six days a week til 10 pm every night, on a project with a specific deadline. Good thing we all believe in the mission.

    6. RagingADHD*

      If you have a legal-secretary or financial background (like EA or admin in a financial services area), I always found tax law and trust & estates to be very low-drama, deliberate pacing.

      There can be a bit of a push at year-end for tax, but it’s not usually hectic, just a bigger workload.

      Estates get a bit of a push when someone dies and a new case starts in probate, but again you’re looking at 60, 90, 120-day deadlines, so it’s not “fast-paced.”

      You’re also mostly dealing with people who are planning stuff far in advance, not crisis situations. Which is a much more relaxed mindset.

      1. Daisy Wooton*

        I have been an EA in higher ed with some financial/budgetary aspects to the role that I have enjoyed more than I expected. Would that experience possibly be applicable to the types of jobs you mentioned?

        1. RagingADHD*

          Possibly. It’s worth looking into. You might have to step back a bit in seniority, because they will want more legal-specific experience for more senior roles. But most of your skills would transfer just fine. I answered a question further down about some stuff I used to do as a legal sec, I’m sure most of it will be familiar to you as an EA.

    7. Wordybird*

      I don’t tend to put too much stock into a “fast-paced environment” just like I don’t when they say they want someone who can communicate or someone who’s a team player. These are obvious things everyone wants in a worker (or person), and they don’t carry any real weight.

      Admin/coordination jobs, in general, though, have lots going on so if that’s something you don’t enjoy, you should look into something that isn’t in that field at all. The only admin job I’ve ever had where I didn’t have to juggle things all the time was for a non-profit that was too small to have 40 hours’ worth of work for me. What other types of skills do you have? Anything technical?

  31. LongLostLibrarian*

    For any librarians that have taken Library Juice Academy courses, would you put them in your resume? Particularly the certifications?

    1. Chilipepper Attitude*

      If I had a lot of space on my resume I would probably list them in a section at the bottom.
      But I would probably mention them in my cover letter. Something like (if it makes sense for the job/your personality): I love learning and continue to build my skills. On my own time I have earned certs from Library Juice in ….

    2. Metadata minion*

      Absolutely, especially for certifications or for something you don’t do regularly in your job but would do in the job you’re applying for.

  32. Bluesboy*

    Bit of a surprise at work this week. I work in the offices of a bank (we have all floors, but all are offices except the ground floor which is a branch).

    Get to the office at 8am, and they are taking down our signage to replace it with the signage of a different bank which I’ve never heard of. There have been rumours and gossip of mergers and takeovers for a while, so the initial thought is “Oh God, we’ve been taken over!”

    Some worried people on my floor for two hours until 10am when…a film crew pulled up. Turns out they are filming using the bank as a set and the signage is for a completely fictional bank!

    Of course, it would have been nice if someone had thought to tell us…

    So watched from my office window as they filmed the lead crossing the road, other actors going in, coming out etc. Not that exciting, but better than a takeover!

    2. it's me*

      Years ago I worked in downtown Atlanta, and I sometimes came in on Saturday mornings. I took public transit and walked to my building. One morning, before I’d had coffee, I noticed the usual exit from the subway station was blocked, and when I asked a security guard why it was blocked, he said, bizarrely, “There’s nothing for you out there.” Baffled, I exited another way, but saw that the main street I walked along to get to my building was covered with papers, and there were burned-out cars including an old bus off the side streets. Eventually I saw trailers, and this was before there was really much filming in Atlanta, so I didn’t recognize them immediately, but put it together soon after, although I was still pretty confused since this was all very out of the ordinary. Friends, I had walked into the Season 1 Walking Dead set, and although they weren’t filming at the time, you can see what I saw in those promo shots of Rick riding his horse with a burned-out old bus in the background. At the time, however, I had no idea what was going on. Funny that all they had to do to downtown to make it look like a zombie apocalypse was add burned-out cars and have papers blowing around. Later that day, I watched from the 27th floor of our building as extras dressed as zombies crowded around a tank containing Rick. It was something like 95 degrees that day, so I felt bad for people having to be outside in costume.

        1. DrRat*

          On the next level of meta…do we think this was an ACTUAL security guard, or an extra dressed as a security guard? Because that kind of sounds like an actor getting into the role. Or a security guard who missed his calling.

      2. RagingADHD*

        I have definitely been through sections of Atlanta where it looked like the apocalypse had really happened IRL. Smoldering semi on the I-20 off-ramp, and all.

      3. LavaLamp*

        As a Walking dead fan, I’d have probably been trying to figure out if I could go BE an extra, heat be dammed.

        1. ronda*

          I have a friend in Atlanta who has been an extra in a few things, you just need to find the sites that do calls for it and sign up. I don’t think anyone takes walkups tho :)

    3. TiffIf*

      That really is bizarre that they didn’t tell you. I mean you’d think they would at least notify people to stay out of the area being used during that time?

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        I would expect the opposite effect; tell people there’s filming and they’ll want to watch or even get into the picture’s background.

      2. Bluesboy*

        Well, we had to walk through the set if we wanted to go for a coffee or for lunch, so they couldn’t really tell us to keep out of the area! But there were no long scenes – how long does it take for someone to walk across the road? So maybe we had to wait two minutes for a ‘cut!’ and then they would let us walk past before the lead walked back to the other side of the road and started again!

        But it would have been nice to know what was going on in advance, definitely!

    4. Asenath*

      I can only blame myself for not paying attention to the public announcements the day I walked towards my church and saw an unusual number of vehicles, including a police car and, oh my, that’s an ambulance…then I saw the other big trucks and realized it was a filming crew, and actually, the logos on the police car and ambulance weren’t exactly like the official logos. I thought for a minute there had been some terrible tragedy.

    5. LKW*

      In NYC when they’re filming on our block, every building gets a notification several days in advance about the crews, the noise and whatever. It’s just a piece of paper taped to the door – but really, was that so hard?

      1. ronda*

        I got the same thing when they were filming at houses in my neighborhood in Atlanta, and they said if they would be closing the street for it. But if it were at the work-place, I probably would not have got notice.

  33. Why is COBRA stupid expensive?*

    Anyone here have COBRA for health insurance who has had the government subsidy kick in yet? I’ve paid my first month’s premium, but I can’t afford to do that the next month. I can’t even get through the phone lines of my benefits company to see what they have to say.

    1. Another JD*

      Something is wrong here. If you are eligible for the COBRA assistance, then you aren’t supposed to be paying your premium.

    2. Cantatatata*

      I have been on COBRA since January, and since April have been covered by the subsidy. But the subsidy did not appear in my account on April 1 since the benefits company needed more lead time to implement the rules. So, I ended up having to pay April, May, and June on my own before they applied the subsidy. I requested a refund of the three months of premiums I paid, and apparently will be getting a check in the mail next week. It doesn’t seem like it is a smooth process. It might be better for those who started COBRA recently.

    3. Whiskey on the rocks*

      If you’ve recently separated from your job or otherwise qualify for the special enrollment, the marketplace is open to you. They have a thing where you can get an idea of costs and plans, but I wish I had gone ahead and completed the application because after that, things were much more specific (and accurate). The tax credit gets applied and you can see the full cost as well as the discounted one.

      1. Cantatatata*

        The COBRA subsidy will pay 100% of your health insurance costs through September, and after that you can sign up for a plan through the marketplace. I would look to COBRA before looking at the marketplace if you were recently separated. You can’t beat free, at least through September.

    4. HelenofWhat*

      As someone who works on benefits administration, I’m so sorry. The companies that run these things are horribly ill suited to quickly applying these types of subsidies.
      But you do have the right to it if you were involuntarily terminated, so see if you can push them. If you feel up to contacting the HR dept or whomever runs benefits at your former employer, they can apply pressure to the benefits company that you can’t. At my job we regularly are able to expedite things for people or at least ensure they don’t lose coverage.

  34. LandOfTheBeanAndTheCod*

    Has anyone worked out of The Wing (especially the Boston location)? What’s it like from a workspace perspective?

    I’m permanently work-from-home now, but I don’t have great air conditioning and my place gets very hot in the summer. The cheapest option for co-working near me seems to be The Wing. It’s less than half the cost of my other options. I’m on the fence about it for other reasons, but I’d like to know if it is a physically good space to get work done.

  35. Tech Lesbian*

    Any tips on writing a cover letter/resume specifically for an internal job that you’re already doing minus the title & pay?

    For over a year, I’ve been administering an application that will soon take over the entire department as our central enterprise service management solution, and my bosses have recognized that I won’t have time to devote myself to that application while I’m running around doing all of the other lower-level tasks my job is actually supposed to do. Because of The Rules, they can’t just give me this new job title (and significant pay bump) without posting it for all candidates. So it’s “mine” but it’s also not mine because this is not exactly a niche field and someone could apply with 10 years experience who just blows my current work out of the water. When my bosses first told me about the position, I felt very confident that it would be a cakewalk, but now that it’s getting closer and closer to being posted, I’m really worried about the number of extremely qualified people in my field who are currently out of work and aggressively looking.

    So I have to submit a resume and write a cover letter for a position with tasks & duties I have been doing for over a year, on a project where I have made all of the contacts with collaborators and have 100% designed from the ground up. I will be devastated to get rejected and basically have to hand over every single project and accomplishment I’ve made at this job to someone else (and if I were rejected, I would probably start looking for another job.) I’ve read through Allison’s resume and cover letter posts, but almost all of them focus on external candidates or people applying internally to a different department/division. Anybody have tips on how to frame a cover letter to a hiring committee comprised entirely of people who know me well, know that I have been doing the new position’s duties for over a year, but don’t necessarily understand the technical side/backend of what I do?

    1. Anonny*

      Weird coincidence–both very similar questions that ended up one right after the other. I’ll be watching the answers here too.

    2. green beans*

      I don’t hire externally, but if you know the person who’s going to be reading the cover letter, write it for them. “As you know, I have taken on many of the duties that are now being formally encompassed by this position. I have really enjoyed the transitioning of my job from X to Y, and am applying in hopes of making this a permanent change.”

      I’m tired, so make it sound less pretentious, but just be upfront – you’re doing many of the things already, you’re enjoying them, you want to make it permanent, 1-2 examples of success, 1-2 things you’ll be able to do if you’re transitioned into the role and can let go of your other duties.

  36. Anonny*

    TL;DR: What should a cover letter look like for an internal position? How specific can you be? Can you include things that would normally be business or contract information not shared outside of the company? + any other advice on internal transfers welcome!

    There’s an internal position that just opened up that I am interested in. It could mean a significant raise but my company has a habit of underpaying based on past compensation history and since it is at the same company I can’t exactly hide my compensation history. (I’m also NOT in a state that has laws around setting salary based on past compensation.) I don’t know the exact salary the person who is leaving the position made (and it isn’t really an option to ask him) but I DO know that he was given an outside offer and the company’s counteroffer was 40% over my current salary, and given what I know of how promotions/raises work at my company I can’t imagine that his salary was less than 130% of my current salary. So I plan to stick to my guns on salary and if they won’t pay, I’m not moving and taking on more responsibilities if the salary is not at least equal to what he was paid. (Can you argue “equal pay for equal work” based on the pay that the person in the position previously had?)

    Anyway–salary aside–I was actually originally offered this same position three years ago before this guy was hired, so I have no doubt I could do the job. My main strength is I have extensive domain knowledge (I have numerous times taken technical issues from the guy who is leaving to solve problems for clients that he can’t). I have a co-worker who is strongly advocating for me to have this position.

    But I don’t want to take this for granted! I don’t want to assume that it is just mine for the taking. I’ve started composing a cover letter but have run into a question–this is an internal position in the same department–think moving from customer service to sales for the same product. So where my cover letter would normally coach some accomplishments in vague terms “acted as account manager for a major US insurance carrier” –because this is all internal can I name them explicitly? How detailed can I be in ways that would not be permitted in a cover letter for an outside company?

    Also in general how to handle an internal transfer? Especially one where you would be working with many of the same people but just with different responsibilities?

  37. Machiamellie*

    CW: child death

    This was years ago and it still bothers me.

    I worked for a company of 50ish people who all worked in the same building. A coworker who I didn’t work closely with had a baby with a disability. They brought the baby to get togethers, he was adorable, everyone held him, it was wonderful. It was known the baby would pass away within a year.

    One day I came to work and everyone was out. I started working as usual, saw on another coworker’s calendar “(baby’s name)’s funeral” for an out of office notification. Basically, the baby had passed away and no one told me. Everyone in the office had gone to the funeral.

    When my boss got back I was upset. All I said was that I wish someone had told me so I could go pay my respects and that it would have been awful if I’d asked the coworker how Baby was, as I always did when I saw him, not realizing he had passed away. My boss said it was the coworker’s “private business” that he didn’t think he had the right to tell anyone. He then said I was “too sensitive” and “overly emotional.”

    Was I?

    1. Asenath*

      I can understand why you would be upset about not being notified. When similar things happened at my last workplace, somehow word got around through the grapevine without public announcements, so those who wished could contribute to a card or donation and attend the funeral. I suppose generally, like maybe your boss, people didn’t like to make public announcements of deaths except those of workers or retirees out of consideration of privacy (but we all found out double quick when an adored niece of a co-worker died unexpectedly and we paid our respects). But your boss was out of line to call your reaction too sensitive or over emotional.

      2. londonedit*

        I agree. I can understand that maybe the boss didn’t want to feel like they were sharing personal and upsetting information without permission, and it’s possible the boss didn’t realise you were the only one who hadn’t been informed of the death. But I don’t think it was fair to call your reaction ‘too sensitive’ or ‘overly emotional’. It was obviously upsetting for you to find out about the baby’s death anyway, and that would have been compounded by realising you’d missed the chance to attend the funeral because no one had told you. I think being upset is a pretty natural reaction in that situation, and it sounds like you expressed your feelings quite rationally.

        1. Machiamellie*

          Thank you! To be clear, I wasn’t expecting a company-wide announcement or anything, but my office was literally next to his and he could have poked his head in and said, “Baby died, funeral is tomorrow at X time if you want to go.”

    3. Metadata minion*

      It particularly doesn’t seem like an overreaction to me if *everyone else* was at the funeral. I’m never sure where the line is in a larger office where you don’t want to pry but also don’t want to inadvertently add to someone’s grief by asking about someone you didn’t realize had died. But here it sounds like everyone knew but you, which is…weird.

    4. Red Swedish Fish*

      Its very odd that you were the only one not invited but that also says something about either how well you knew the mother and/or how you interact with your co-workers. That no one mentioned it to you or around you is a big flag that there was a reason you were not told, this would have been something everyone was talking about to some degree.

      1. Machiamellie*

        Yeah that job was full of red flags. It was an old boys’ club and I was neither old nor a boy. Most of the employees, including the father of the baby, worked on the other side of the building.

    5. RagingADHD*

      The best construction I can put on this was that the bereaved mom told people individually, wasn’t thinking straight and inadvertently left you out. Then your boss & others either assumed you knew, or were trying to respect her (apparent) wishes and not pester her with follow-up questions.

      Your boss’s response to you was not great, but I can see how the mistake could easily be made.

      Is there any chance your boss might have felt that you were making the situation too much about yourself and your own feelings of exclusion, in a way that seemed out of place in context of the tragic loss? I could maybe see someone using “too sensitive” in that context.

      2. Teapot supervisor*

        This is what I was thinking too. If boss said he wasn’t tell people, then it’s likely you got missed by accident as the message went through the grapevine and, right up until the moment you spoke to him, boss had no reason to think you didn’t already know. From boss’s perspective, if somebody came up to me after I’d come back from a funeral involving a tragic death and told me “I wish somebody had told me”, I too may have interpreted it like you were focussing on the wrong thing.

        But I also would have hopefully realised that you were upset and probably a bit in shock (an OOO notification is an awful way to get that news and I know how awful it feels to not be able to attend a funeral of somebody you want to pay your respects to) and offered up a “I’m sorry you had to find out this way” rather than scolding you for being too sensitive. Your boss’s comments were out of line.

  38. JH*

    Last year, due to COVID, the non-profit I work for downsized and re-org’d. As part of this re-organization, my chapter merged with two other ones. We now consist of the “three markets” and the Executive Director (ED) in my “market” stayed on as the ED. The other two ED’s for the other areas were given new titles and called Area Directors.

    While we have been financially successful as a chapter this year, the re-organization has definitely caused some management and work-style bumps. I manage a specific program that operates in all three chapter geographic areas. So even though I report to one of the directors, I have “dotted lines” to the ED and the other director. The ED and my manager have a very hands-off management style. I have weekly check-ins with them and they have an open-door policy. The expectation is that they trust me to get my work done and to come to them when I need help.
    The other Director is a different story. She’s very much a micro-manager. She’s the type of person that needs to be kept in the loop every step of the way and if you’re not doing it on her timeline then it’s an issue. She also has a tendency to call people out in the middle of staff meetings for things that aren’t done on her timeline. I’ve always gotten my job done and had good success, it’s why my boss and the ED trust me so much. But because I don’t do things on the other Director’s timelines, which sometimes it just doesn’t make sense for my workflow and/or competing priorities, she has really upped her “management” of me. She tries to have her hand in everything I do and when I don’t do it exactly the way she does, she can become very critical.

    I love most of my job and my team, but it’s clear this director isn’t going anywhere. It’s gotten to the point that when I see an email from her hit my inbox I start to have a mini anxiety attack. I don’t want to leave but I don’t know how to make the situation better. I’ve tried to talk to my boss about it and she’s talked to the other director but it hasn’t helped. It feels silly to job search over one person but I would love other’s input or advice on the situation!

    1. Colette*

      Have you tried responding when she gives you something to do and letting her know when you expect to be done? I.e. “I’ll get this done by Friday”, “I’m got a critical issue to fix, but I should be able to start this next week”.

    2. Put yourself first*

      If you can, talk to her about how to best balance her need to know everything with trusting you to handle it in a way that works well for your business.

      If you can’t, GO. I was in a similar situation, and after years of being like a professional who could handle her business, it was terrible to be stuck with a psycho on a power trip. (That description may not apply to this manager, of course!). Prioritize your well being and mental health above everything else. You deserve respect, consideration, and professional treatment. (I’m sorry I don’t have good concrete advice on how to proceed – I just hope you make YOU your first priority.)

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Unless or until you have more clear support from your manager and the ED to fend off this AD’s micromanagement or remove her from your reporting structure altogether, you may not be able to make the situation better. There’s a reason why it’s said that people leave managers, not jobs. If they value the work that you’re doing and you can show a net negative effect of this AD’s interference (stress, re-work, added comms or work with no added value), that should be rationale enough to consider you to be sufficiently managed by manager/ED without that AD needing to be in the loop.

      I was briefly in a similar situation with a micromanager and the only fix was to get out from under and report to a different manager. Unfortunately the manager I escaped now has moved to a role managing a group that I work closely with, and has stated he’s going to ‘revamp’ the well-established work priorities of his new team based on his (unfounded) opinions of how it should be done. I don’t envy that team and it’ll be interesting to see what happens because I know several of the senior people in that group are not going to take direction from an ill-informed micromanager disrupting their progress for poorly defined reasons. It would be disappointing if the key people on the team transfer/quit and this manager stays, but that happens when upper management ignores an issue like this.

    4. ronda*

      We spend too much time at work to put up with this kind of stuff if we have other options. I would start looking for new place.

      In the mean-time, put them on an information diet, just tell them when you will have stuff done for them and don’t engage on the other stuff. Always blame it on high priority stuff that needs to be done for the ED (if they won’t blow your cover).

  39. Mostly managed*

    Y’all.

    My boss quit last week (let’s call her Sansa) and now I report directly to her grandboss (Robert.) I’ve worked with a ton of different people over my career but I’ve never in my life had difficulty communicating with someone like I have communicating with Robert. I’ll make a joke, he takes it as deadly serious. I’ll send an email, he asks for more info, I send more info, he says he doesn’t want more info. I write bullet points, he asks for paragraphs, I write paragraphs, he asks for bullet points.

    (As a concrete example: he asked if another team had permission to do something. I replied that they did, with an attachment showing that. He sent back a ten-point list of information he said he needed from me, explicitly saying he needed that list filled out. I filled out the list. He emailed me back, saying he didn’t need that much information, and just saying they had permission would be fine. Argh.)

    Before Sansa left she indicated that she also had difficulty communicating with Robert, and that I wasn’t alone with this problem. The other members of my team are all male and anti-social so I’ve been elected “the talking to management person.” Robert has decided that extends my (very tech-focused) role to “party planner and admin.” (I’m also taking Sansa’s technical and PM work. Our team is understaffed.)

    Has anyone got advice on how to deal with this? I’ve started job hunting because I legitimately don’t know how to communicate with Robert. Am I missing some ~communication tips~?

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Is your communication happening primarily by email? Does Robert work better over some other form of communication such as in-person, video, or phone call? That sounds so frustrating.

      1. Mostly managed*

        I’ve never met him in person– but I’ve called/offered to call when I think miscommunication is happening, and he always seems annoyed that I called him (I check if he’s free first!)

        A common communication goes like this:
        I email him for a quick thing
        He emails me back a list of requirements.
        I send back what he asks for
        He calls me to say that I only needed to email him the quick thing

        Or!
        I email him a quick thing
        He emails a list of requirements
        I call to double-check what he needs
        He says he just needs the initial email.

        It just seems like every way I approach this is the wrong way ):

    2. elle*

      I worked for a boss like this. He destroyed my mental health. He even purposely made my life a nightmare at a certain point because he wanted me to quit on my own (he had a policy of never firing people). Get out now. This isn’t about you, Robert is just a nightmare human.

      1. Mostly managed*

        I can already feel it chipping away at my sanity (and I have a ton to do, so the extra communication is just… eating the time I need to get stuff done.)

      2. Windchime*

        Agree. I used to work for Robert, only she was a woman and her name was Barb. She destroyed my mental health to the point where I had to take two months off for severe anxiety, and I was pretty sure I would never be able to work again. She tried to destroy me (and others in the department), and she did it on purpose. (Fortunately, all I needed was to find a normal workplace and all was well).

        I’d start looking. It’s not worth it to try to deal with people like this. They get off on making us feel confused and upset.

    3. not a doctor*

      I’ve worked for a Robert, so trust me when I say: you will never be able to communicate with Robert the way you (or, arguably, anyone who values their sanity would) want to. He doesn’t know what he wants — only what he doesn’t — and by the time he sees whatever you send him, he’s already forgotten what he asked for. You’re right to be job hunting if you can’t get out from under him, and I wish you luck in a speedy escape!

      That all said, some things that might help you keep your head until then: document absolutely everything he says; whenever you send him something, remind him of what he asked for (with a direct quote, if possible); don’t be afraid to deploy “as I said in my previous email,” etc. (as politely and professionally as possible, of course); refer to existing rules and documentation if you can/as needed (if he tries to get you into party planning, for example, can you refer back to your job description?).

      Also, don’t accept being the de-facto ‘Robert person’ on your team! Make one of the guys help you out! He might be completely different with a man. If not, at least they’ll understand what you’re going through.

      1. Mostly managed*

        It’s hard for me to internalize this I guess! I’ve always been complimented on my communication skills by past managers (which is why, despite hating being the “communications person” I always end up with the job.)

        Documenting the requests is definitely something I need to start doing– I’ll start adding “per your call, x” to my emails as well…

        (And I’ll get one of the guys to help out. They can’t avoid him forever.)

        1. not a doctor*

          I totally get it. Unfortunately, Roberts were put on this earth to defy and stymie anyone with reasonable communication skills, because they are not reasonable communicators.

          1. Your Local Password Resetter*

            Indeed. Communication is a two people job. If Robert isn’t listening or is constantly flipflopping, then the communication will always be bad.

        2. The New Wanderer*

          This would drive me crazy too. At some point I would be just forwarding the original email with the short answer when he reacts poorly to the long answer that he requested after receiving the short answer. Not even “per my last email” but the minimum effort that also shows you already did the thing. It is no reflection of your skills, you’re just working with a missing stair.

          Also, however makes the most sense to do it, definitely get the other people on the team to be part of the communications. Assuming Robert doesn’t need information that only you can supply, the others should be taking on their share of responding to requests.

          Also, since you note that the others come across as anti-social, take some cues from them. Professionally of course, but if Robert stopped asking them for things because they wouldn’t respond in a timely manner, or responded by saying “too busy, ask X”, or forwarding the request to you to handle as the default communicator for the group, use these techniques to distance yourself from being the default go-to person.

        3. green beans*

          Being good at something does not obligate you to do it! People become good at things with practice.

          I am good at building (but not maintaining) organization systems and I’m decent at event planning. I hate both, passionately, and will not do them unless they are to primarily benefit myself or I am getting some kind of ridiculous, mostly financial benefit out of it.

          1. green beans*

            *people become good at things with practice = others will become good at it if you don’t do it.

      2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        One of my first jobs, I had a boss like this.
        He’d write up a list of 7 tasks he wanted me to do. A numbered list.
        Then he’d say “So do #2 first, then #4, then the first part of #6, then #1, then the second part of #6, …”.

        Robert doesn’t actually know what he wants, and he changes his mind on the fly.

        1. Mostly managed*

          That sounds very frustrating! I feel like there are a lot of dudes who get into management because they’re good at things other than communicating, and by the time their job is all communication there’s nothing that can be done to help.

        2. Windchime*

          Yep. My Robert/Barb literally made me a numbered list.
          Task #1
          Task #2
          Task #3

          Then when I did Task #1 first, she acted confused and said that had NEVER been the top priority. Seriously, she was bonkers.

    4. really*

      This sounds like total power BS and it is not you, or how you are communicating. You will not be able to figure this out, and that is part of the total power BS. Keep looking and best wishes.

      1. Mostly managed*

        This is what my partner said. It’s different to hear it from strangers though.

    5. Shirley Keeldar*

      Umm. First off, could in-person or phone calls work better than e-mail? Maybe with an e-mail to follow up and summarize because Robert seems unable to figure out or remember what he wants.

      Second, I’m wondering if you’re missing, not communication, but sexism. You say the rest of your team is male–does that mean you and Sansa are female? And Robert is assigning you admin and party-planning work that isn’t part of your job? I’m starting to think that Robert just doesn’t like or remember anything said to him by a woman.

      1. Mostly managed*

        We talk on the phone and it seems like he gets it but then things don’t really change. In-person might work better, but we work in a very COVID-conscious field so I actually haven’t ever met him in person!

        And yeah, maybe. He seems to really respect his boss, who’s a woman, and he talks a good feminist game, but it does seem like he seeks out communication with women– and then doesn’t like the communication he gets.

        1. green beans*

          Can you tell him, “I really appreciate the opportunity, but I’m quite swamped with New Duties, which is impacting your flow of information, so Man From Office will be taking over with comms while I get my feet under me with the PM/other duties.”

          that’s probably the best way. officially transition it to someone else.

    6. LKW*

      You are not missing anything – I think someone was spot on when they said he only knows what he doesn’t want. Start looking for a new job because this isn’t going to get better. Have you had a serious discussion with him about this? Have you set up time to say “Look, I want to do a good job for you. I want you to have the information you need to make decisions. But you keep giving me conflicting messages and I’d like to hear from you, how you want me to provide information and respond to your emails. This back and forth is unproductive for you and for me and I want to make sure that we work well together.”

      But part of me just wants you to call him out directly every time. When you provide the short answer and he comes back requesting a long answer – answer it. When he then responds with a I just need the short answer – write back -“That was in the first email, to which you requested specific additional information. Please see original email that started this highlighted for your convenience.” Just keep documenting this nonsense.

      1. Mostly managed*

        I set up an “I’m missing something” meeting in my first month, and most of what came out of that was: he told me not to be anxious, and said he was happy with my performance “aside from the communication issues” which is what I called him to resolve.

        This might be what I start doing. Just getting granular and “per my last email”-y. At least I can use Sansa as a reference!

        1. LKW*

          The only other suggestion I can think of is to look at the things he’s asking for and see if there are themes that you can use to find a middle ground. For example if the question was “is this project approved to start” and you answer “Yes.” that might be too short – and he gives you a long list of questions when what he really wants is for you to anticipate a response more like “Yes, Sansa and Fergus approved the project at the Steering Committee meeting on April 10. Reps from sales and manufacturing were present. Budget is $1M.”

      2. RagingADHD*

        Based on my experience, pushing him to acknowledge this pattern will just create an endless feedback loop of “no I didn’t/yes you did.”

        If you ignore the criticism, he will have forgotten it in 5 minutes.

    7. Your Local Password Resetter*

      If everyone is having communications issues with Robert, then it’s definitely a him problem. And pushing you into traditionally feminine typed roles just makes him an even bigger problem.

      But since he’s your grandboss, I think your only options are leave or find a way to cope. And remind yourself that you’re not doing anything wrong, he’s just being difficult.

    8. RagingADHD*

      Yes, Robert is a crazymaker. He legit doesn’t remember what he said last time, he is completely reacting in the moment, and what he wants in the moment is the opposite of whatever you did. He is reflexively contrary, like a toddler saying “no!” to everything, even ice cream.

      I have worked with folks like this frequently. You can’t fix it. Just use your own judgment and recognize that this is the answer you will always get. You can’t ever be “right,” because “right” is defined as “not this.”

      You can’t address it as a pattern, because he doesn’t recognize that he’s doing it, and will deny it.

      It’s up to you to decide whether this is something you can or wish to ignore and continue working with, or for how long.

    9. NaoNao*

      Okay out of the box solution—

      I think you should let those emails sit for a bit. Like maybe a workday. See if it’s still urgent after a day. Then literally answer just the thing he asked for. Like “Does such and such team have permission”. “Yes”.

      Don’t attach anything, or add anything he didn’t ask for. Just be very literal and don’t go above and beyond. If he returns with a list, let it sit for 24 hours. Then wait for a follow up. If you get a follow up, just fill it out.

      I would also do your best to… ignore the feedback. Unless he’s to the point of putting you a PIP, this is an arms’ race you’re not going to win. So when he’s like “I didn’t actually need that list” just answer “Received” or “Noted” and file in archives and move on. Don’t try to meet his ever-changing needs because you can’t and you’re going to get dinged either way.

      My experience has been almost everything can be resolved in some way by doing…nothing.

      1. green beans*

        Yup. This is an extreme strategy but is useful if the other person isn’t engaging in good faith (it will burn bridges fast if they are engaging in good faith, so use with discretion – I *notice* when people just do nothing and hope I will forget and not in a good way.)

    10. meyer lemon*

      Do you really need to be the “talking to management person” or can you let some of your coworkers deal with Robert instead? It sounds like you’ve given this guy the best possible shot and he’s determined to be impossible to communicate with for inscrutable reasons of his own. To be honest, it sounds like both he and your team are setting you up to fail by putting you in this position.

    11. green beans*

      For the “party-planner and admin” work, pass it on to the men/team! For the party-planner stuff – “Thanks, Robert, I let the team know if they wanted to drive this, there was a budget.”

      For the admin stuff, “Great. I’ll speak to the team and we’ll work out a rotation for this kind of work. Someone will be in touch with you about it.”

  40. KX*

    I have a blog now. A work blog. I am not here to promote it and I am not trying to monetize it. It is a practical advice/how-to/why-to blog about common office processes and software.

    I created this blog as a personal outlet to share solutions I’ve found at work, and to help others learn to better use software because I like helping. I also created this blog because a lot of company and external-to-company advice is about Building Your Brand. I guess the new way to job hunt, should I ever have to (not currently out of a job or looking for a job), is to make Professional Connections and Leverage Your Network via your Built Brand. That seems… stressful, especially if I find myself with no job trying to build a brand all of a sudden. So, I am getting started now so a brand is ready when I need it. :)

    I know only this: I should have a Twitter/Blog/LinkedIn system going, but… what and how? I know how to write content and post it regularly. I have a Twitter account for the blog. I have a LinkedIn page as myself. But integrating them into some kind of coherent Brand Image is stressing me out.

    It’s one thing to post a link to the blog article on Twitter, with hashtags (still trying to find my best set of hashtags). But how does one do LinkedIn? I don’t think I can re-publish what I put on my blog and call it a LinkedIn article; I don’t know if I should post links to blog content as it comes out. LinkedIn is my missing piece of the puzzle. If I have to do Twitter dialog too I am coming up short on that. (That could be more organic if I had my hashtags figured out, or else maybe Twitter is not useful in this case.)

    What do others here do? Advice welcomed. Thanks, all.

    2. Cooper*

      Twitter is less about hashtags and more about seamlessly incorporating appropriate keywords! Hashtags get used for like, events, or community-related stuff, but people don’t seem to use them to search much.
      Instead, it’s very much about interacting with people in your field– comment on their posts, retweet things, have conversations. Don’t think too much about *making* a brand image. Your brand is just a way to succinctly describe what you’re *already doing*. It’s about preventing you from doing something that you wouldn’t actually do normally, not about forcing yourself to do unnatural things to suit the image.

    3. KX*

      @Soup and @Cooper… thank you both! The Patel resources are very helpful, and the Twitter context invaluable. I took to Facebook easily but never really got my head around Twitter and hashtags.

  41. Cimorene-turned-Morwen*

    After years of trying to carve out some work-life balance in (US) academia, I’m ready to jump ship. But I have no idea how to turn my CV into a resume, or if I need to if I want to stay in research/science but just on the for-profit side – is there such a thing as a “resume for scientists”? And I feel like I need a translation service for what business terms mean! Any tips/sources/pointers?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Your professional society (IUPAC, etc) ought to have resources for this.

      1. Cimorene-turned-Morwen*

        I had hoped, but the main society just offers ($$$) resume writing services. I clearly need to dig a little deeper.

        1. Rainy*

          Check out whether the career services office from your university (particularly from the institution where you got your highest degree) A) still offers assistance to alums at your time-from-conferral and B) has a grad student career services program/office/advisor. I wouldn’t seek assistance from a career advisor who works with undergrads, or even probably from one who works with alums, but someone who only works with people getting advanced degrees will probably have some good ideas about how to restructure your application documents.

    2. Mostly managed*

      The best thing to do is keep your CV and copy/flatten your work experience from that into a resume. They’re two separate documents: the CV is Everything You’ve Done, and the resume is Hey Employers, Here’s Who I’ve Worked For And What I Did, I’ll Be a Good Employee. You don’t need to speak business– just understand the value you bring (and you do bring value!) and communicate that concretely. Lean into your experience with Academia as a benefit to them; you’re good at working with all sorts of people, good at communicating/explaining, good at producing under pressure, etc. Literally copy from your CV everything you did under one employer/placement and squish it down to a paragraph, rinse, repeat, until you have a page.

      (Also: LOVE your user name.)

      1. Cimorene-turned-Morwen*

        This is so helpful! I guess I need to start summarizing – not a list of all my publications, but bullet points saying I worked on XX projects from data collection to publication, was invited to present on topics A, B, C…

        And thanks :)

      2. Not a scientist*

        I’m not in the sciences, so this may vary, but my resume got a lot more attention once I focused on what I did in grad school rather than just naming publications or conferences without context. What are the skills that those products showcase? Who were they for, and what outcomes did they lead to? Project management, public speaking, grant writing, data analysis, etc. are all skills that academics gloss over but that can have real value.

        A related problem I ran into was that people didn’t know what a doctoral program was or presumed it was like I went to college for longer than average. I had a lot more luck once I framed my doctoral years explicitly like a full-time research job (since it literally was!). I hope you find an approach and a career path that work for you!

    4. green beans*

      If you’re applying to industry jobs, you can use an academic CV (try to lighten it by taking off some of the lists of things like seminars/talks, classes, students mentored, etc.. – focus on jobs with projects highlighted and publications.) But they’re used to seeing academic CVs come through; they won’t blink.

      Do keep your list of publications at the end. If you’ve published a lot, do “selected publications” (relevant and you contributed significantly) but industry typically does care about publications from academia.

      The best way is to reach out to someone in industry and ask for an informational interview about the transitioning process – lots of times they’ll share their CV and you can use it as a template if you have a good relationship with them.

    5. Boba Feta*

      Fellow academic here (though still in it…)

      I heartily agree with the advice above to reframe your thinking about the résumé as a document that clearly communicates accomplishments that are suited to the job/ new field at hand, rather than just a long list of name-dropped journals or conferences. The audience is different and won’t give a damn about the name recognition of each entry but absolutely will pay attention to bullet points that explain the significance of each accomplishment, as Alison advises.

      Related anecdote: I created a hybrid CV-resume monstrosity that incorporated Alison’s “accomplishment-focused” resume bullet points (for selected/ key positions) into the multi-page/ section structure expected for CVs in my discipline, so overall it conformed to absolutely none of the “rules” of either format. however, I am suggesting it as a mid-way step to help you reframe your thinking because, when offering me the full-time position, my dean remarked at least twice how “very impressive” he found my CV, and I strongly Suspect those bullet points had a big impact there.

      Additional references that could be helpful:

      The Professor Is In: her blog and book are a trove of advice. Yes, she charges for individual career consultations, but I’ve never gone that route and have been able to put all her publicly available advice to great use.

      The Versatile PhD: all about leveraging your academic credentials and skills toward a career shift away from academia.

      Good luck!

  42. Lana del bae*

    Hoping this is the right thread for my question! I’ve worked as a biologist for 5 years, mainly working in a lab and on the field to get samples, and ready to make a change. Has anyone with a bachelor’s in environmental science (or, a similar degree/background) successfully transitioned to a new career path? Would love to hear experiences of going back to school or starting entry-level elsewhere!

    1. elle*

      I know a lot of folks with that background that transitioned into my field (agriculture) via research or technical specialist roles.

    2. Just a pm*

      A lot of the project managers I know started in the lab, it gave us the technical background we needed to be able to understand and manage our projects!

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Yes – my housemate transitioned from biochem lab work to project management for a pharmaceutical company.

      2. Generic Name*

        Yeah, I’m a biologist and I’m currently a project manager at my consulting company. I started out doing fieldwork and report writing.

    3. Tired Accountant*

      I haven’t but my friend went back to school for her masters in accountancy, became a CPA, and now works for a manufacturer. She decided she didn’t want to study turtles anymore.

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      My niece just got her degree in that subject. For that speciality in particular, there’s a pretty straightforward path from bench scientist to fieldwork and/or education & outreach. State and federal parks services, museums, conservancy districts all hire in that field.

    5. I heart landscape*

      I have a master’s degree in landscape architecture (which is not what I studied in undergrad). Lots of people come to landscape architecture from environmental science. Landscape architecture is mainly focused on designing nice outdoor spaces for people; if you’re more interested in The Environment, you might also want to check out restoration ecology.

    6. Policy Wonk*

      Government always needs people with Scientific backgrounds to work on related policy or regulatory matters. Check organizations like AAAS for info about fellowshipss, or USA jobs for open positions.

    7. J.B.*

      State environmental agencies hire a lot at what is entry level to them but they don’t want brand new grads. If you are interested in policy and going out and working with or training people that should give you options. I’m not really sure what you want though so probably start from there.

    8. MinotJ*

      Yes! Google MT, MLT, CLS, and CLT. They’re slightly different versions of the same thing: medical laboratory technologist/technician.

      I got a BS in Evolutionary Biology, then spent a few years doing bird field work before starting an ill-advised MS that kicked my butt. I never finished the masters degree, but eventually found my way to an MLT program at a local community college. With an MLT AS and a science BS, I was able to “test up” to being an MT. My starting wage was $27/hr, and it’s gone up to $38/hr in the last decade. (The salary is quite variable by state/city). With bonuses for further certification, evening and weekend differential, and overtime – I make about 95k/year.

      This field is desperate for techs. You can work in a smaller lab and do everything (blood bank, hematology, chemistry, urinalysis, microbiology) or you can work in a larger lab and specialize.

      There is always room for growth into management because most of us are complete introverts and want nothing to do with being the boss.

  43. Check please*

    Took some time off recently. It didn’t stick. And I’m overwhelmed by my job, this class I’m taking, and family obligations this weekend, followed by a pretty intense week at work next week. My reaction? To slow down to a crawl. I’m tired of being responsible. For me, for my direct reports, my boss, my family… I would sell up and move away to the country if the thought of packing and driving my neurotic cat didn’t stress me out also!

    This probably isn’t the right forum, but I just needed to vent…. so thank you!

    1. JelloStapler*

      Been there! What can you say “no” to? Are you putting things on yourself that you’ve actually do not need to be responsible for? I often think that things (tasks, emotional energy, etc) depend on me when they really don’t need to Or that I’m stepping in when instead I should let somebody else take a shot at it.

  44. Fairness police*

    For those of you with experience in work environments where you have groups of remote workers and groups of in-office workers:

    How do you deal with people complaining about one group of people having perks/amenities that the other group doesn’t? (I’m not talking about big things, think more like bagel Fridays.)

    1. Check please*

      There are benefits to working in the office and benefits to working remotely. Each employee must make their own determination about what benefit is most important to them. In the past, some in person meetings I’ve attended have included sandwiches. Those who weren’t in the meeting didn’t get sandwiches. That’s not discriminatory. It’s an acknowledgment that people have made a particular effort to be at a particular location at lunchtime. If there were leftover sandwiches, sometimes they were shared with a larger group, but sometimes there are no extra sandwiches. Sometimes the non-meeting employee just gets an orange slice or a handful of grapes. But, that’s a perk too. So for those who didn’t get bagels, they also didn’t have to commute into work that day. I would argue that not commuting into work is better than a bagel and a shmear, but if there are those who disagree…. they can come into the office on Fridays.

    2. Bloopmaster*

      Do people have a choice as to whether they are in the remote group or in-office group? If so, they’ve already decided which “perk” works best for them (getting bagels or working in sweatpants). If they don’t have a say, that’s a little tricky. Probably people would care less if they didn’t have easy access to that information. Can the people who provide the perks be more conscientious about not advertising that fact to the people who can’t have it? It’s as easy as having two email aliases for remote v in-office teams and only sending the bagel announcement to one of them…

    3. CoffeeIsMyFriend*

      Eat the complainers?
      Sorry not helpful but I’m really tired of people doing this – every work situation has trade-0ffs. If possible (given space / ongoing safety stuff / travel) – give the out of office people a heads up about upcoming in-office food so they can come in? But in general this is just part of life and when my colleagues complain I either change the topic or, if there is an obvious tradeoff, point it out
      I.e.: A colleague was complaining that I was assigned a laptop as a ‘perk’ when she was only given a desktop for her office. The tradeoff? I was commuting in the middle of the day between locations on opposite sides of the city and needed to be able to quickly access files not on the cloud. While none of her projects required her to leave her office. In that case I told her I would be happy to trade (we could have), but she didn’t take me up on it…

  45. Annie J*

    This has probably been asked before, I do apologise.
    I just wonder if anyone knows of any professional services that you could send your CV/resume to so that it can becritiqued and to get feedback.
    My problem is that I don’t have a lot of experience, I’m applying for customer service jobs and I’ve only worked in a CallCenter for one year I really want some way for my CV to stand out but I’m really not sure how to do it.
    Is there ever a case where a candidate with less experience is chosen over a more experienced candidate, what can I use as a wow factor to help me stand out.

    1. funkydonut*

      In my city, we have a large public library. They do resume reviews, where you’re connected with a skilled librarian who will go over your resume with you. Maybe your area has something similar through the library?

      1. Librarian Lil*

        In my library, you can get resumes reviewed through Brainfuse. (It’s not just for homework help.)

    2. Decidedly Me*

      If you attended college, they likely have this service.

      As to your other question, I’ve hired people for CS roles with less experience than other candidates. It wasn’t as a result of the resume, though, but at the interview. Attitude, personality, and approach to customer service are a few areas that vary widely and can matter a lot more than years of experience

      1. Always Science-ing*

        Seconding the suggestion to check with your college/university. I recently volunteered with mine to do resume reviews for other alumni. Many of the events my Alumni Association hosts are also open to non-alumni, so you could also check with other colleges/universities with active alumni events teams.

  46. Em from CT*

    I need to have a conversation with my boss about how I’m falling behind at work. I’ve been having significant struggles with my mental health for the past few months, and it’s gotten pretty bad lately. I’m staying on top of all the urgent/extra-important stuff, but am letting a lot of the day-to-day stuff slide.

    Basically, I want to acknowledge that I’m struggling, let her know I’m aware of how it’s impacting my work, and make it clear that I’m taking steps to get into a better place—therapy, medication changes, really committing to a lot of changes in my life.

    My question for you all: is this a conversation I should have over the phone/Teams, or can I write her an email?

    1. not a doctor*

      I’d write an email first, and in that email, offer to follow up with a meeting.

      That said, you might want to be careful about what you put in writing, and err on the side of keeping the details vague.

      1. Em from CT*

        Thanks. If I did write something, it would be similar to what I’ve written here: i.e. not going into the gory details, but giving a broad overview.

    2. Colette*

      I’d suggest doing it in person, especially if you have regular one-on-ones. Tone will help, I think.

      1. Teapot supervisor*

        Second. Or, if in person isn’t an option, over video call, and third option phone call. I think this is a conversation where tone is important and you’ll lose that if you try and do it in writing.

    3. Purple Cat*

      I would have this conversation in person preferrably, but then video meeting or phone, with email being the last choice.
      If you don’t have regularly scheduled 1:1, just schedule a check-in meeting with her.
      Cut yourself some slack, there’s always a chance that you’re not as far behind as you think you are, so perhaps start the meeting with more of an open-ended question for her on how you’ve been doing. If she brings up concerns, then you can agree with them (if they’re accurate), bring up the outside factors, and most importantly, outline the plan to fix things.

      1. Em from CT*

        Thank you, this is good advice! I do know I tend to be very very hard on myself in terms of expectations, so it’s probably very worth seeing what she thinks before I castigate myself too much.

  47. Llama face!*

    Anxiety combatting/new job starting advice pls.

    I’m starting a new job next week after a long time (6+ mos) of not working. My previous workplace was awful in multiple ways but really became insupportable due to their irresponsible behaviour around the virus. The one before that was dysfunctional in multiple ways too. So I haven’t had a healthy work environment for at least the past decade. Also my new employment will be a mix of in-person and wfh which is something I have very little experience in. Can you pass on your best advice for making a good start when moving into (what sounds like) a much better work environment, please?

    1. Gelie Fish*

      I always suggest going in with an attitude of learning. What’s the culture? How do they do things? why do they do things they way they do? We have had quite a few new hires and the ones that are open to learning who we are before they start
      making suggestions for improvements do much better than those who come in with all the answers.
      Also, just be excited for new experiences.

      1. Llama face!*

        Thanks Gelie Fish! I love learning but big new things are also overwhelming and then I get tunnel vision and feel like I’m missing it all in the panic. Trying to take a step back mentally/emotionally and just think “this is a new experience to enjoy” is a nice way to reframe it.

  48. Toasty Bacon and Eggs**

    Would it be wise to jump between temp agencies or just stick with one temp agency long term? I have been at my current temp agency for 2 years, but as my latest assignment ends at the end of this month, they currently don’t have much to offer next. A few other agencies have reached out with position that fix my skillset (worked in accounting for 15 years), but I would rather have a permanent position again ( I have one for 10 years, then I lost it in 2019). My thought lean towards working at the same agency to at least show that I was somewhere for a few years rather then jumping around ( even though some of the temp jobs didn’t last that long)

    Thoughts?

    1. Chaordic One*

      When I worked as a temp, I was registered with 4 different agencies at the same time. I never had a temp job that lasted longer than a few months and I found that no single agency could keep me employed steadily, so registering with more than one agency made sense. Between the 4 agencies I was able to stay, more or less, steadily employed. The agencies seemed to expect it and weren’t put off by it, although they way things worked out I was never able to get a job through Agency Number 4, because I was already employed with jobs from one of the first 3 agencies any time Number 4 called.

      It’s normal to be looking for permanent work when you’re working temp. Normal to take time off from a temp job (you won’t get paid while you’re gone) for an interview for a permanent job. Normal to quit a temp job to take a permanent one.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Temp work is temp work, it doesn’t for resume purposes whether you work with multiple agencies.

      You’re looking for a temp-to-perm situation, so go with whoever might be able to place you in one. When you interview, if anyone asks about the different agencies, you can just say that’s what you were doing.

  49. SA*

    Corporate relocation question… is it normal for your company not to tell you how much the move will cost? The moving company did a survey in preparation for a move, but said they can’t disclose the estimated cost. I then asked my company, and they said they don’t share that information. Thoughts? This seems kind of weird, especially since it will show up as income on my taxes (company does pay tax assistance, at least) and I’d be on the hook for paying it back if I don’t stay for 2 years.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Yeah, that’s totally weird. I can see the moving company not disclosing it, because their contract is with your employer, not you, and they don’t want to get into arguments, bidding wars, etc.

      But if you’re on the hook to pay it back, and it’s going to show up as taxable compensation, you absolutely need to have at least the estimate.

      1. SA*

        Thanks, that was what I thought as well! I am struggling with a way to phrase the question to my company where it doesn’t make it sound like I’m not sure I will stay the full 2 years.

    2. SA*

      One more question: this move is at my company’s request (not my choice), and for this reason, it’s actually not clear in the corporate policy if I have to repay any money if I were to leave within 2 years. Any advice on how to find out if that is the case without burning bridges? I did ask my manager, and he said (verbally) he thought the payback clause wouldn’t apply in this case, but advised me not to ask further as it would create a negative perception. It’s not that I’m planning on leaving or anything, but I have never lived in this city before, and for all I know, I might hate it.

      1. mreasy*

        Your manager needs to find out for you. It would be wrong of them to include the payback clause if you’re moving upon their request!

      2. Your Local Password Resetter*

        I agree that your manager should be giving you this information. Or otherwise your contact person for arranging this move (if it’s not your manager and you were given one), or whoever is in charge of this stuff at your company.

        Your manager also seems weirdly dismissive about this. This is likely a pretty large sum you’ll be on the hook for, and you’re taking it on on their request. And saying you’ll look bad because you’re considering the possibility of leaving within two years is also giving me weird loyalty vibes. Companies include that payback clause because they know it’s a real possibility. They’re really not handeling this well on their end.

        1. Imtheone*

          And things happen which mean employees leave jobs unexpectedly — family illness, personal health issues, etc.

  50. Just a pm*

    So I was at first informally offered a promotion, yay. But when they came back with the official paperwork, the title was a step lower than I had expected. And my expectations didn’t just come from nowhere, we had some new people start at the higher title (different dept though) and my boss and one of the higher ups I work with all indicated that they expected that job title for me as well.
    But then it didn’t happen. And I suspect some politics played a part, because that title would have been 2 levels up and not 1. And since I was brought in by the CEO, they may not have wanted it to come off as favoritism. But also the person before me held this higher title and by all accounts I’ve done a much better job than my predecessor.
    So I guess my need for advice is this, should I talk to the CEO with whom I have a good relationship with and is the one who made the call on the title (I suspect). I don’t want to come off as ungrateful for the promotion, which came with a really nice raise of 14%. But the whole title thing bugs me.

    1. beach read*

      It would not hurt to ask. I would recommend discussing with your boss, not the CEO and I wouldn’t offer up any guesses to them..ie..favoritism. So many factors might be at play! Let them advise the reason. If you are performing as well as you say, it makes sense to ask. ‘When we first discussed my promotion and new title, the expectation was I’d be moving to the level of Assistant Regional Manager when in fact my new title is Assistant to the Regional Manager. Could we talk about the reasoning behind the difference?’

  51. Alexis Rosay*

    I handed in my resignation, but I have two months until I actually leave my job (this is common at my org when folks go back to school).

    I’ve seen a lot of coworkers leave a bad taste when they left by either mentally checking out way too early, or leaving their work in complete disarray for others to pick up the pieces on. I want to manage this transition well so as to keep my reputation as a high performer intact.

    When coworkers have left, what did they (or not do) that made the transition smooth and left you with a good impression of them?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      The level of organization of the information they left behind was way more important than the completeness or level of detail.

      Put together an index of the completed work, work-in-progress, and regular tasks you are responsible for. If there are monthly/quarterly/annual tasks, print out a calendar and annotate it.

  52. Ann*

    Feeling like a ghost after a layoff…

    My department got laid off and its function is being outsourced. I’ve been asked to stay 2 months to wrap up a few time sensitive projects and help with the transition. I’m grateful to have a runway to look for a new job. But now I feel like a ghost at work. Everyone was sympathetic at first, then it got awkward, then they moved on… but I’m still here. I go days without talking to anyone at all. I’ve been quietly uninvited from all company meetings and removed from the email distribution lists. My manager has little time for me, now that my remaining projects aren’t priorities for his new role. I don’t think it’s personal or that anyone is trying to be unkind, but it still hurts to work in this environment. Has anyone gone through something similar? I’d love to hear some advice about staying positive, keeping my head up, and smoothing over awkwardness during my remaining time here.

    1. Alexis Rosay*

      Ouch! My husband was in a similar position once. Honestly, try to emotionally detach yourself as much as possible. He used his new ‘free time’ without meetings to job hunt and write cover letters during the work day.

      Also, I know your manager may not have much time for you, but if at all possible, try to meet with them and get very, very clear on expectations for how you’ll wrap up your projects.

    2. Cantatatata*

      Refocus your efforts on your job search. Do the minimum required at work, but put all you additional energy into finding a job. Stay positive about finding a new job, and ignore any awkwardness at work. Just remember, in two months your current job will be a memory.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I worked for two months after receiving a layoff notice and it’s weird to be part-of but not-part-of the work environment. This is common practice here so it happens to a small number of people every few years on average, but it’s still weird. I was advised I could use as much work time as I wanted to job hunt, attend internal trainings on resume building and interview skills (big company, we offer these routinely), and otherwise wrapping things up. It was a little demoralizing to see work that I could still be contributing to, but I tried to just focus on documenting the stuff I was responsible for and close out anything not being handed off. That’s actually when I started reading AAM so I did spend time digging through the archives and that helped to pass the time.

    4. Gelie Fish*

      This is me as of friday. I actually have 6 mo since my job is being removed in next year’s budget (but I so
      hope to be long gone by then). No advice, just commiseration.

    5. ronda*

      This happened to several people at my work when laid off…… everyone started ignoring them.

      My boss told me to leave whenever I wanted….. so I just wrapped up things I was in the middle of, told folks I regularly worked with that I was laid off, transitioned my employees to their new manager and said bye.

  53. MAC23*

    I’m getting a master’s in accounting and I’m not sure what area I want to go into. Does anyone here work in the field and have any insight to share on the day-to-day of auditing, tax accounting, etc?

    1. Bean Counter Extraordinaire*

      Are you opposed to a regular corporate accountant job? That’s what I’m doing – I don’t have the energy to be an auditor or a tax person!

      1. MAC23*

        Not opposed at all! Just trying to get a clearer picture of what options there are. What do you like about your day-to-day as a corporate accountant?

    2. Lifelong student*

      I am a CPA. I am most interested in tax and found auditing boring and nit picky. However, I also enjoy doing accounting work. It really depends on what you enjoy. You will probably do some time in public accounting which will give you practical exposure to the various areas. I did public for several years- then worked for not-for-profits and taught accounting at the university level. There are so many possibilities with an accounting degree- from finance, cost accounting, academia, tax policy, etc. Enjoy!

      1. MAC23*

        Thanks for replying! I definitely was drawn to accounting from the wide variety of things you can do…now just feeling a little overwhelmed haha! Hearing you’ve done quite a few different things eases my mind a bit. :)

    3. Cj*

      I’m a CPA, and mostly work in tax. The last few tax seasons have been doozies, first with the 2018 tax bill, and with so many of the pandemic related tax laws not even passed until tax season was well underway and were made retroactive, and then needing to wait for software updates to get the returns out the door. I do like it, but hope I never go through another year like this last one. The hours from January – mid-April are long, but a lot of places, including the firm I’m with, have shorter summer hours.

      I’ve never done any auditing. I know our audit department doesn’t work the long hours we do, but on the other hand, they are traveling overnights quite often, which I wouldn’t care for.

      If you have the chance to do any internships, that would be the best way to determine what area you want to go in to.

      1. MAC23*

        Thanks for your insight! I have heard from CPAs who run tax preparing businesses that it’s been rough…I’m definitely looking into internships. I’m currenlty working full time while in the master’s program so I’m not sure what kind of opportunities I’ll be able to take but I’m keeping an open mind!

    4. ronda*

      for tax, you can do income (corp or personal) or sales and use. The income has the yearly very busy times, sales and use is on a monthly schedule. My sister does sales and use tax.

      I did basic accounting for a while, and accounting is usually divided into many groups in a large company, Acct Payable, Acct Receivable, Collection, General Ledger, revenue accounting , Billing, etc —often also broken up by business groups or geographic regions. I did my accounting in Revenue and Billing. There are also often some groups for specific industries, like I worked for Turner Broadcasting and we had a big Film Mgt group to manage how the programs we aired were expensed on the financials. If you are at a small company, you might do more of the different types of accounting.

      and of course the more finance type, I don’t see the big difference between finance and accounting, but people sure seem to. Budget & Forecasting, Investor Relations, Analyst for different business groups, Financial consolidations, mergers and acquisitions etc. (make sure you know how to make graphs and use powerpoint — these groups love presentations)

      I ended up in systems work for accounting systems and liked that and stayed with it for my career. Doing routine system task, training,troubleshooting, testing, report writing. The big accounting firms also have system consulting groups.

      I do think that all accounting types work way too much , the auditors always seemed to be staying late, as did the systems implementation consultants.
      And the basic accounting work people are on a monthly busy, quarterly more busy, year-end insanely busy schedule. Public companies are required to report quarterly, so that is why quarterly is more busy.

      If you want to try out the personal income tax thing….. you can try volunteering for the AARP Tax Aide program. I did this last year and liked it. It will give you a feel for personal income tax. The training was quite a bit of a time commitment in Dec/Jan, then doing returns for Feb to Apr 15. I think future years the training time commitment is less, but there are a few test you have to pass each year for IRS to say you can do this.

  54. Watry*

    I am very frustrated today. The last time we had an open supervisor position, I applied but did not get past the HR screen since I’d never been a supervisor/team lead before. Another position has opened, but since of course my work history hasn’t changed, I didn’t even bother to apply. One of the supervisors pulled me into her office yesterday to tell me she wished I had because all three supervisors (including the one who’s leaving) wanted me to have it.

    I don’t know that I’d even be all that great of a supervisor, but there’s no other way to advance and I could really use the money. *sigh*

    1. LQ*

      If you want it the phrase that is like a magic key sometimes can be “gave work direction”. I know that lots of folks around here think no one should every do any work that may be even a tiny bit above the current work they do, but in the real world it’s how you get promoted most of the time. So ask your supervisor for opportunities to mentor folks, or to work as a lead. This will let you get some experience of giving work direction and giving feedback which are ways to show experience in the work without the job.

      Good luck! It sounds like folks like you and think you could do well so you can ask them for feedback too!

      1. Watry*

        My immediate supervisor is actually doing her damndest to give me opportunities to train and run/do things outside of our day-to-day duties. Before this I’ve mostly worked for very small companies that didn’t have those sorts of opportunities, and the one that did didn’t want to move me up. I don’t know if it was because I put up with a lot or because I was doing too well where I was, but it was clear it was one.

      1. Watry*

        She does. We’re local government so HR can’t pass just me on, but if we hit a second round she has leverage to insist the higher-ups pull my application.

    3. beach read*

      Advancement in the work place should be a topic you and your Boss discuss. (Especially the HR screening wall) If you haven’t done so already, see about getting some real time mentoring from one or more of the supervisors. Ask what tasks you could train on and take over for the supervisor(s). Set up a “Day in the life” shadow day. Does your in-house learning center offer any workshops or seminars for management? How about taking some basic management classes at your local community college? Be proactive and own your goals.
      Above all, don’t give up!

      1. Watry*

        I’ve already done what of this I can–only one management class is available to non-managers, and I’ve taken it. I can’t afford college classes. I’ve taken over quite a few administrative tasks, as long as I have the system access to do so and it won’t cause issues with my same-level coworkers.

        I’m really just venting. I’m annoyed that even knowing I don’t pick up on things (autism spectrum), no one straight-up told me anything. I’m annoyed that the only way to advance is into middle management, and only one management position is open to civilian personnel. I’m annoyed that I’m the only interested employee being blocked out by this experience requirement–and I’m even more annoyed that you can’t get a job/promotion unless you have experience which you can’t get without a job/promotion. *shrug emoji*

  55. SnowWhiteClaw*

    I need recommendations on books/websites/podcasts on professionalism!

    One of my colleagues isn’t from the US, they want to have lunch with me next week so we can discuss how to be professional in the workplace. I feel like it will take hours to go over what is generally considered polite and appropriate in American workplaces. For reference, I’m a scientist in academia now but I worked in industry for about 10 years previous to this.

    Any advice is appreciated! Let me know what you think I should talk about or books I should recommend

    1. Alexis Rosay*

      Are you sure you need a book? I would start by asking the colleague what they noticed is different so far from their home country, and go from there. Otherwise you could spend a long time discussion norms that could be the same in both cultures.

  56. XJY*

    Thoughts on changing a start date after already agreeing on a date? I just got a new job (woo!) but will need to travel across the country for it and am realizing I might need more time than I asked for. It’s also government which I’m not sure if that makes it easier or harder.

    1. Bloopmaster*

      Ask for it—the worse they can say is “sorry, we need your agreed-upon start date to be permanent.” Honestly, probably easier to negotiate in government because the hiring processes is so convoluted that they’d probably be happy to get you two weeks late in exchange for not having to find a different candidate.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      If it’s federal, probably not that big of a deal – it takes so long to bring people on board thzt another couple weeks doesn’t mKe a difference. But HR generally wants the start date to coincide with the beginning of a pay period so factor that in, e.g. if you wan to delay by one week expect to be told it will be two.

  57. Bloopmaster*

    Folks who hate working from home—for you is it more a case of not wanting to work at your home (suboptimal facility/lack of space/intrusion on home life/zero socializing) or actively wanting to work in the same space as your coworkers/company?

    We’re still waiting for word of whether we’ll every have to return to the office, and one idea that was floated was the company subsidizing the cost of co-working space for those who hate working from home or otherwise have limitations that prevent them doing it productively (just as they used to subsidize transportation to work). Is this something that would appeal to to the anti-WFH crowd? Or still not as good as being in the company office?

    1. LQ*

      For me personally, it’s the first thing. There is a small bit tasks that my teams are better at doing in person (some of the collaborative work). I’m not saying no one can do them well remotely. But my teams have had all the tools and they have not gotten better (and no, I don’t want advice, I just want to stop having to reinvent everything every 5 minutes for a week, then maybe we can get better at it, but we need a break first). So for that part I still think one day a week everyone in office may be really valuable.

      But for me, my home space is extremely poorly set up for it. Other folks who I’ve asked to come back into the office also have poor spaces. Like shared workspaces with people who are constantly asking them questions, they shouldn’t be asking or answering. (Think if you had staff in the same room with someone who dealt with sensitive HR matters.) Or people who have really poor internet (or claim to).

      So think it comes down to why are people aren’t liking it.

    2. Annony*

      Even with subsidizing the cost of the co-working space, I would be unhappy having to pay anything when I used to be able to go to the office for free.

    3. Actual Vampire*

      Why does the company want to get a coworking space – are they going to get rid of the office altogether? Could they just find a cheaper office or maybe rent a block of rooms in a coworking space? It seems like this would address both reasons people might want to work in the office (and it wouldn’t require people to pay for their own workspace, which is ridiculous).

    4. Your Local Password Resetter*

      Mainly the first one for me. I just don’t perform very well at home (or in any non-work location), and it really messes with my work-life balance and mental state.

    5. ThatGirl*

      I don’t hate working from home, but the reasons I like being in the office are both a and b. I don’t have a great dedicated space at home – at the office I have a full keyboard, mouse, two monitors, lots of desk space, etc. but I also like the social aspect and being able to have some meetings and ask quick questions in person.

  58. My face! The makeup does nothing!*

    I get regular monthly outbreaks on my face and since we’ve had to wear masks I’ve found that I’m breaking out almost all the time. To make matters worse, my skin is incredibly sensitive and hates makeup – putting makeup on to cover the breakouts only ensure they’ll get worse so I’ve given up.

    I’ve just started a new job and am very conscious of how the red marks appear. They seem to be even brighter on camera! Does anyone have any advice on how to cope with this, I worry it comes across as unprofessional and not the best first impression.

    1. kbeers0su*

      Everyone is different, but I found a combination of the right birth control (Yasmin, which is for acne), face wash (AHA/BHA), and serum (niacinimide) has helped me get to a point where I don’t have to wear make-up 99% of the time. And that’s after wearing make-up almost daily for 18+ years. I’m in my late 30s though, so maybe part is just age?

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I have a tip, not for the marks, but for maybe reducing them in the future – a friend of mine found that her sensitive skin had much less issue with her masks when she washed them not in regular detergent, but with a bit of her actual sensitive-skin face wash.

      1. Windchime*

        My mom is allergic to something in the paper, disposable masks. She finds that she can only wear the cloth masks. I’m not sure if she washes them separately or just throws them in with a regular load. But try wearing a cloth mask if you are currently wearing paper.

    3. Massive Dynamic*

      Find a good esthetician! They’ll evaluate your skin and tailor treatments to you personally, with goals of less breakouts, reducing overall redness, clearing scars, etc.

      For the camera, make sure you’re using the zoom touchup feature. No idea how to do that on teams though; I don’t think it’s an option.

    4. clover*

      What helped lessen my mask acne was changing my mask more often during the day. My office is air-conditioned, so I could wear a cloth mask under a medical mask and swap out the cloth mask for a new clean one every few hours. I’d also rinse/wash & re-moisturize the skin under my mask during lunch.

      This didn’t completely get rid of my mask acne, but there was a definite improvement!

    5. Sanibel Island*

      Find a skin care routine right for you! If you can visit a dermatologist.

      If you can’t get to a dermatologist, an aesthetician in a salon could work.

      I’d use the YouTube beauty community as a last resort as there is SO MUCH information on different brands and products. One influencer likes product A from Brand B, but another one hates the same product. Don’t take everything from them at face value.

      I’d switch to the disposable masks if you could; the reuseable cloth ones are cute and all, but I notice I break out more when I use them (unless they’re clean already). I would also go for using a face wash to wash your cloth masks (preferably one from a drug store, as I tend to use more expensive face washes from stores like Ulta or Sephora).

      I’ve upped my nutrition game, and try to incorporate more foods that contribute to good skin, like salmon for dinner, chia seeds in smoothies, and collagen powder in my coffee. Maybe this will work too? If you drink sugary drinks( (soda, juice, the entire Starbucks menu), and/or alcohol, limit or even eliminate (if you want to of course) these items.

      And most importantly, HYDRATE. Drink water, all day, every day.

      I’m a beauty enthusiast, couldn’t help myself :)

    6. anonassistant*

      Ay!! I’m sorry. I have definitely been in your position before. I want to assure you that NO ONE notices the breakouts/marks as much as you do. We can be our own worst critics when it comes to stuff like this, especially when you have to look at yourself through the lens of a zoom call all the time. Dealing with acne as an adult can be an emotionally loaded experience, so I would recommend trying to follow some kind of self-care routine that helps you destress and center yourself a few times a week. Remind yourself that your acne has no affect on your work, and most people probably aren’t paying attention to it (and if they do see it, I doubt they think it’s a big deal or unprofessional.) You are more than your skin!

      I worked with a dermatologist to eliminate my acne whenever it cropped up (my city doesn’t have a robust esthetician scene, so medical dermatology was the only option). It was expensive (and uhhh painful, and time-consuming), but 100% worth it for me. Good luck!

      1. Gelie Fish*

        I have rosacea and even with medication my face flares and breaks out. most of the time I go makeup free and figure people will deal. When itis a more important meeting I will do light makeup to lessen and then remove right after to limit the potential it will irritate more.

    7. Emma2*

      I should say upfront that I do not have severe break outs, but will get occasional spots, so not quite the same situation. I do, however, have a very good aesthetician – she recommended Clinisoothe. You spray some on after washing your face. Totally non-irritating and it really clears and soothes skin. You could also spray it on the inside of your mask as it will help to kill off any bacteria that might be lurking there and irritating your skin. Honestly, it makes a really noticeable difference for me without being harsh or irritating my skin. It also is not shockingly expensive (I checked, 100 ml is around $21 in the US and it will last quite a while if you try it).

    8. ronda*

      the pill worked very well for my breakouts, then I had to go off it.
      I got the worse acne I had ever had.

      I was on antibiotics for many years that worked pretty good.

      Then my doctor wanted me to no longer be taking antibiotics and switched me to spironolactone and that has worked better than antibiotics. But I do think it is not recommended during childbearing years, so will want to look into that if that is the case for you.

      I have never been good with soaps and creams, so the pills work best for me.

  59. Golden*

    For the commenters that use internal messaging software such as Teams or Slack at work, do you pay attention to someone’s status before sending a message?

    This is my first role out of school and my company and boss encourage contacting one another via Teams DMs. Is it rude to send a message when someone’s status is “Busy” or “In a Meeting”, or is the onus on them to set it up such that they don’t get push notifications during those statuses if it would annoy them? Most of my messages are questions for my boss that are not time-critical.

    1. Sunny*

      I normally don’t pay mind and send the message anyways. Their status just makes me aware that it may take some time for them to get back to me.

      2. JelloStapler*

        Yes I would definitely ask, because they may not realize that this is happening!

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      The onus is on them to not check their messages or to turn off notifications. Send away.

    3. LQ*

      I don’t generally send things I wouldn’t want to be seen on a screen share unless I know they aren’t sharing their screen, but other than that I pay zero attention to it.

      Also if your boss is encouraging it I think you’re fine to just send them. I’ve never been annoyed by people sending me messages that are not time critical whenever they feel like it, unless they treat it as if it is time critical. (By like following up 4 minutes later “DID YOU SEE MY THING THAT DOESN”T MATTER FOR 4 WEEKS?!” no shut up and go away)

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      If it’s someone I know and work with regularly, like my boss, I don’t worry about it, our general understanding is that the recipient will respond when available. That said, I don’t message my boss when she’s on literal DND status unless it’s both work-related and not sensitive in case she is sharing her screen, because that bit me in the tail feathers once before she figured out how to tell it to hide her notifications. :P And she didn’t dismiss the notification either, so my ARE THEY EVEN SERIOUS RIGHT NOW just kinda hung out there in the middle of the meeting for twelve years while everybody was really quiet. Bless.

      If it’s someone I don’t contact regularly or know very well – if they’re not on green or yellow (because our Teams flips you to “away” if you don’t type in Teams for like, ten minutes, because heaven forbid we would be doing ANYTHING ELSE, so yellow is unreliable), I’m more likely to email them than to message them.

    5. Anonymous Hippo*

      IMO, it’s on them to have their notifications set to the appropriate setting.

      I do pay attention to the status, but it won’t stop me sending a message, just helps me set an expectation of when I’ll get a reply.

    6. JelloStapler*

      I send it but I don’t worry about it unless I see the little icon that they read it. Even then I give him quite a lot of time after that before I consider emailing them.

    7. talos*

      I pay zero attention, because there are a lot of times when a person can reply despite being “in a meeting”. If the messaging platform is also the merting platform (Teams, Zoom, Skype) then it should block any popups from their screenshare as well.

    8. RagingADHD*

      No, it’s not rude. That status is just FYI. Send what you need to send! That’s what the platform is there for.

    9. Decidedly Me*

      Their status tells me something about when I can expect a reply, not whether I can message them :) I have no issues messaging folks with different statuses and they have no issues messaging me.

    10. Person from the Resume*

      If they are predating, teams puts them on DND so your message will never disrupt a presentation.

      I only half listen to a bunch of meetings so I definitely message if they’re busy or in a meeting. They can ignore if they are engaged or respond if they’re not.

    11. Wordybird*

      I usually check to see if they’re on a call or away but it doesn’t prevent me from sending a message to them even if they are. My supervisors have specifically told me not to worry about their status because they will get to the message when it’s convenient for them.

  60. Sunny*

    Been at my startup job for a few months and quickly realized that there’s some major healthcare compliance issues. Healthcare providers are practicing without state licenses and possible insurance fraud. Management is completely aware of these things and expect *me* to help fix the compliance issues. I’m not in the compliance dept. Do I stick around and help, or do I run for the hills? I’m trying hard to get a job lined up first but don’t know what to say to recruiters about why I want to leave this job already.

    1. CatCat*

      If they’re making something your job that you weren’t hired for, that gives you a pretty neutral out.

      “I was hired to do X, but over the past few months, the job has morphed into a compliance role rather than X. I am finding this is not a good fit and am looking to get back to doing X.”

    2. Introverted Type-A Employee*

      Startup or not, any medical practice that hires providers without the proper state license and allows them to practice and also engages in possible fraudulent billing casually – RUN for the hills. This is not your job to fix. You’re not in Compliance, but even if you were, any office that allows this in the first place is only going to let more and more critical things slide. Once that gets out, and it WILL, having your name associated with a practice that engages in that can harm your career.

      You can let recruiters know that you were hired to do X but it turns out they wanted you to do Y, or you could just be honest and say that after beginning work you became aware of some fraudulent practices you were very uncomfortable with and decided it was best to look for another practice.

    3. PollyQ*

      Run for the hills, and drop a dime on your way out the door. This might even be a case where you should quit without having another job, because if this blows up while you’re working there, and while you’re working on the issues, it could damage your professional reputation in a way that might be hard to shake.

    4. Your Local Password Resetter*

      Leg it. Your management is actively flaunting healthcare regulation and trying to involve you in their coverup.
      If you think you can stick it out, wait until you have a job offer first, but don’t try to stay in this job for the long haul.

    5. Philodendron*

      Run, and also report them to whatever regulatory body requires them to have licences and act in compliance with legislation. They deserve to get burned for this. Healthcare delivery is not to be messed around with.

  61. LBAI*

    I’ve been doing a lot of video interviews lately, and keep forgetting to get my interviewers’ email address so I can send a follow-up message. Since HR has been scheduling the times, I can’t just look at the invite for the email. Anyone have a non-awkward script for this?

    1. RagingADHD*

      Hi, HR person, I’m not finding (interviewer)’s email address in my notes. Could you send it to me? I’d like to thank them directly for their time on Thursday.

  62. A Simple Narwhal*

    Anyone listen to Big Mood Little Mood (formerly the Dear Prudence podcast) this week? The gist is that Danny and guest Mara Wilson got a question from someone working in a high-pressure competitive industry who suffered from bouts of crippling depression every couple months. They’d been able to cover up missed deadlines in down times by claiming family emergencies and technical issues, but they were worried it would come to light and they’d be fired/etc, and they wondered if they should disclose the depression to their boss/company. Their concern was the stigma surrounding mental illness, that their status would be used against them, and that their career trajectory would plummet, citing their company’s cutthroat nature and superficial support for employee wellness.

    Both Danny and Mara were staunchly for disclosing, claiming that there were protections in place once they disclosed an illness, that a company couldn’t just all of a sudden tank your career, that depression is so common now that it wouldn’t be bad to share, and that even if a company is high-pressure and competitive, they wouldn’t want to look bad by mistreating the person with depression, etc.

    And I was just like…this feels very clearly like advice coming from two people who have never worked office jobs. Because they’re not entirely wrong per se, but it would sadly be so easy for a company to use a mental health diagnosis against you with enough plausible deniability that you’d have little to no recourse. It’s of course not the case universally, and it could absolutely work out to their benefit, but there’s a bigger chance (and risk!) that it wouldn’t. The potential for negative repercussions never seemed to cross their minds.

    I just wish people would stop writing work questions to people with no office experience, I wanted to find the letter writer and tell them to write to Alison instead!

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      FWIW I think the person should disclose that they have a chronic condition (not specifically naming depression) that flares up every X weeks, so I’m not fully disagreeing with the advice, just that there’s a level of nuance that was missing.

    2. Rabbit*

      *Reposting due to nesting fail

      Danny’s advice on anything relating to work on Dear Prudence was always horrific and liable to get someone fired / make their work life a nightmare so I’m not surprised. Mind you, his advice on parenting or anything to do with personal possessions was also dangerously bad. As for Mara Wilson – people can be funny on twitter and still be terrible at real-life advice, especially if they have lived in a weird bubble their entire lives

      1. Malarkey01*

        YES! I finally stopped reading because I was constantly annoyed thinking these people will be fired/arrested/horrible if they follow this advice. He also was another who recommended going to HR as a hall monitor/arbitrator for workplace disagreements.

        My experience in places tagged as high pressure competitive places is that a disclosure that means you’ve been missing deadlines is already going to tank your career unless this is something very temporary that you need just a little grace for.

      2. Actual Vampire*

        I gave up after Danny told a reader that their elderly dad would definitely have a fabulous vacation in Ukraine with his hot young girlfriend he’d never met before, and would absolutely not get kidnapped or robbed, and it was AGEIST! and XENOPHOBIC! to even think otherwise. Continuing to give Slate my oh-so-valuable clicks after that felt like a crime.

        1. ampersand*

          I hear ya. The new Prudence (since Danny left) is better—took me a few weeks to warm up to her, but she’s given some good advice lately. She seems more aware and is more succinct.

          2. Skeeder Jones*

            I like the new Prudence better as well but it feels like the Monday chats and Thursday postings have gotten a lot shorter with the new one.

      3. Skeeder Jones*

        I agree. It seemed like he would either completely over-react or he would totally misunderstand some part of the letter and give advice based on that misunderstanding. I often wondered why people submitted work related questions there when AAM is much more relevant.

    3. ronda*

      Danny did say he worked in an office for a while, but hated it soooooooo much.
      He also sometimes has said you should really ask a manager for this one :)

      I actually like his stuff, but not because I think he is giving good advice. I just think it is interesting to hear peoples letters and this totally different perspective on answers.

    4. asteramella*

      Danny Lavery is a brilliant writer who has never worked a long-term office job and gives terrible advice, frequently about things he knows nothing about. I’d recommend all his books and essays, but not his advice.

  63. Regret*

    When I gave my two weeks notice, my coworker wanted to know if I used cover letters for my job hunt, and asked if I could send her mine so she could see how to write one. I said yes because I wanted to be helpful, but now that I’ve had time to think about it, I really don’t want to. I worry she might copy parts of or even my entire cover letter. (She’s not good at writing and kept complaining about how much work job hunting is and how she doesn’t want to write a cover letter.) I spent a ton of time working on my cover letter and made sure to give it my voice, so I’ve gotten a lot of compliments on it. We live in the same area and want the same kinds of jobs. If I’m job hunting again later, I don’t want employers to think I stole someone’s cover letter.

    She was going to e-mail me to ask for my cover letter when she started job hunting. What should I do if she does? I can offer her cover letter resources and give feedback if she writes one, but I’m not sure how to say I changed my mind about sharing mine.

    1. A Girl Named Fred*

      When she reaches out, maybe some form of, “You know, I was thinking about it and since cover letters are so personalized I don’t think it will be helpful for me to send mine to you. But, these are the resources I used when writing it out! (links here)”

      Include a line about being happy to provide feedback or review if it’s true, but otherwise that might help change it from “I think you’ll steal my cover letter” to “I think these resources will be more helpful than a fully written letter would be.”

    2. Tired*

      You could send her the sample cover letters on AAM. They will be less directly relevant to her so hopefully would help her resist the urge to copy.

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      Oh, I’m in the middle of rewriting mine, but I found a great resource with some really good examples — and then link to this site — I believe that Allison has cover letter examples in a separate tab.

  64. A Girl Named Fred*

    Hi all! To any folks who have broken themselves out of the “my job/career must fulfill me” mentality, would you mind sharing how you did it? I recognize I’m a bit trapped in that mindset and that it’s causing me to hate every job I have and see no career I could invest my time and effort into long-term. But when I try to pull back from that mindset and change to “work is work, it’s fine if it’s mostly boring as long as it lets me do the things I want to do outside work” I struggle hugely with the idea that 40 hours of every week are going to be wasted on something that’s fine or boring at best. I do get that we can’t all have our dream jobs and that there’s more to life than work (I’m a staunch supporter of ‘turn your damn laptop off at 5pm and be done with it’), and I’m aware that I have a great deal of privilege in even whining about this in the first place, but 8 hours a day, potentially plus commute time, feels like way too much time to spend on something that’s meh at best. How did you break yourself out of that thought pattern and come to be content with whatever work you chose? Or if you didn’t break out of that thought pattern, how did you leverage it into actionable steps toward fulfilling work?

    1. LQ*

      Looking at it as a business transaction helps. And to be very fair, I’m 1000% in the depths of this right now. I feel way over-committed to my job and my work and all the rest. I have been able to get myself out for a few years here and there in my career and each of those times it was because I had people around me who did this and I did it myself to look at the work as a purely business transaction. It’s not about spending 9 hours a day at work. It’s about trading 1 hour for $x which lets me do Thing I Want To Do. My employer is contracting with me for 8 hours a day, I choose to live where I live so that’s on me, but for each of the hours I want to be honest and truthful about giving them what they have bought. (And no more.) And weirdly I was kind of mechanically better at work during these times, I was creatively worse about it because I brought so little of that to the table at that time. But like I would diligently do exactly what was asked, nothing more, nothing less.

      Good luck. I’m trying to pull myself out of this now but I don’t have anyone around me who thinks like this and I feel ….like I’m drowning in it too.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Therapy! I had entwined my self worth waaay too much into my work, and it was destroying me mentally and physically. Working with a therapist really helped me realize that I was a complete person, whole and separate from my job. It made me a better worker too because being able to operate objectively and not spiraling when experiencing a work setback made me a stronger and more-effective employee.

      You also need to be at a job where the mentality is that everyone is just going to do their job to the best of their ability and then go home and live their lives. I’ve worked at places that expected you and your work to be one and the same, that this was a way of life and what little spare time you had outside of work was to be spent improving your skills and learning new things to bring back to work, and my healthier mindset would never have worked there.

      So therapy and a good-enough job that is truly just a job are what really helped me make the switch. It also helped that I worked to build a rich fulfilling life outside of the office, so that work truly wasn’t my source of identity.

      Good luck!

    3. LKW*

      I think the question you should be asking is what, if anything, you can get out of your job besides your paycheck and why aren’t you getting that now? After working for 30 years do I love making spreadsheets and powerpoints – no. But I love learning about new things and seeing new technology and learning more about things that happen in my industry. I love learning. So I try to learn a lot, even if it’s not directly relevant to what I do day to day. So I ask questions and do a little reading and ask people questions. That makes me happy.

    4. Unkempt Flatware*

      I know it’s not exactly what you asked but….I cannot do a job that I don’t absolutely love. I have friends who are content with being content but I just cannot do it. I think for me it is a bit of what you mentioned–40 hours a week is stupid and arbitrary and American and is based on car manufacturing. It is impossible to remain productive for that long. I broke out of this cycle by not allowing myself to be pigeon-holed. I had experience in customer service but HATE working with the public. I was a school teacher but HATE working with children. I had to fight hard to say no to those jobs and to redirect people who thought they could tell me where I should be. I stopped listening to my father who said I should just be content with being content. I started following my gut and recognizing what I was willing to sacrifice. In my case, that sacrifice was a few years of serious poverty while I did work I loved but paid terribly. Then I found the right grad program, followed my instincts and my heart, ignored the naysayers, and now I LOVE LOVE LOVE my work. I love it the same on Monday as I do on Friday. I will never listen to anyone who tries to tell me what I should be okay with or happy with. Nor will I allow anyone to tell me my happiness (especially as a single childless person) is not the number one thing in my life.

      1. Spearmint*

        I don’t want to invalidate your experiences, but I think it’s important to emphasize that your path involved major tradeoffs, and that “ignoring the naysayers” and having it work out ok probably involved a lot of luck. Take the OP, who thought they had a dream career and that turned out not to be. I’m happy it worked out for you, and I’m by no means someone who thinks people should always do what’s “practical” in their careers, but I worry stories like yours give people an overly rosy picture of following their dreams without reckoning with the downsides.

        I’m probably sensitive to this as my partner is in a PhD program, but there are lots of people who try to go into highly competitive “dream careers” against the advice of naysayers, and yet most of them won’t achieve the dream and most will eventually burnout in disappointment.

    5. Spearmint*

      I’ve struggled with this as well, and two things have helped me:

      1. Working for an employer/department that I feel is doing something good for the world, even if only in a small way. It’s not necessarily my passion or something world changing, but something I can feel good about.

      2. Not putting in 100% effort at work, including doing some non-work things (within reason) during work hours. While at work, I do personal tasks that I’d have to do anyway, like scheduling appointments and checking my bank accounts. I also take many breaks throughout the day to read the news, respond to personal emails and texts, and go for quick walks. If I’m honest, I probably spend 2-3 hours a day on non-work stuff. I still get everything done and my boss is happy with my work, but I’m a B+/A- employee rather than an A employee, and I’m ok with that. When I work at this pace, work feels less oppressive and I don’t get overly invested in it. I also have more of my free time to focus on fun and meaningful things.

      1. allathian*

        Your post really resonated with me.

        I work for the government, partly because I want to contribute to the efficient use of public funds, and partly because I find excessive wealth (more than a few million per person) to be morally repugnant and I don’t want my work to line the pockets of those who are wealthy already.

        When I started this job, my identity was probably a bit too tied up in it. I’ve always done a few non-work things during working hours, including reading and commenting on AAM. Although my team’s expected to use 2 hours most weeks for professional development, and we can define that ourselves.

        My org uses salary bands that are determined by the position, but with a personal performance component that can be up to 50 percent of the position-based salary, so in theory someone could be earning 50 percent more than someone else in the same position, although in practice that never happens. The manager who hired me was bad enough at her job that all I could do was to focus on surviving the madness with my mental health more or less intact. I stuck with it, though, because I’d switched careers and I was afraid that if I quit or didn’t get to keep my job after probation, my chances of making it in this career would plummet. Then we had an organizational reform that meant I got a new manager. Unfortunately, the organizational reform coincided with a financial crisis and there was a freeze on raising the performance percentage. Even with exceeds expectations in my performance evaluations, I missed out on getting even a small percentage raise beyond COL. I know her hands were tied, but my then-manager couldn’t understand why I found it demotivating when I didn’t get a raise even though my performance merited it. Once she even adjusted my performance evaluation scores during my performance evaluation when she noticed that I should get a raise she didn’t have the funds for. The whole system is broken and it wasn’t my manager’s fault, but I still resent her for implying that I was somehow greedy because I was disappointed when I didn’t get the raise that my performance merited.

        Since then, I’ve been shooting for “meets expectations” and I’ve been much happier at work. I guess I’m also fortunate in that my org is big on having a good work/life balance and I still try to give it my best shot, I’m just not looking for opportunities to go above and beyond like I was before.

    6. MissDisplaced*

      Find something you like, or at least don’t hate doing. Forget the whole “passionate” and “fulfilling” stuff.

      1. allathian*

        Yeah, I’ll settle for satisfying and meaningful myself. But it’s a lot easier said than done, if you’ve bought into the whole “find your passion at work” thing.

    7. RagingADHD*

      I think the first step is to examine your own thoughts on this. I see some very extreme black and white thinking here, that the only options are total personal fulfillment or wasting time in meaningless boredom.

      That’s just not a realistic perspective of the nuances that exist in life and work.

      The big shift is when you start to see many different types of work as being worthwhile and valuable to society and to other people. You can do a good thing that was worth doing well, even if it isn’t The Most Epic World-Shattering Amazingness Ever.

      From there, you can start to see different types of work that you might find satisfying and meaningful. So that work is one good piece of your life, just not the ultimate thing your life revolves around.

      How to get to that shift? Well, I think there are a lot of paths. One is cultivating a sense of gratitude and appreciation for all the things you have, or experience, that make your life better in different ways. People made those things. They did those things. Their work wasn’t a waste of time, because you appreciate it.

      Another path is cultivating respect and appreciation for other people in general–both the things they do that benefit you, and the things they need or want that you could help with.

      Another would be thinking deeply about your values. What sorts of things are, to you, unquestionably worthwhile and never a waste of time? Even if they aren’t “fulfilling” in the same way you expect of work? Are there any that your strengths and skills could contribute to?

      A third path is imagining a richer life for yourself, with lots and lots of good things in it. Work that is pleasant and valuable can support all the other good things, too.

      If you’re stuck in a loop where everything seems like a waste of time and you cant think of anything at all that seems valuable, or imagine good things in your future, then you might be dealing with some depression, and should talk to someone about it.

    8. Actual Vampire*

      I think it can be helpful to think about your work life holistically, rather than just in terms of your specific work tasks. Maybe you aren’t going out on a boat to save the whales… but are you helping to create a pleasant work environment? Are you mentoring younger people in your company/industry? Are you advocating for yourself and other workers? Are you being a good coworker/boss (if applicable)? Are you using whatever power you have to make your company (and industry) a better and more equitable workplace?

      You spend 40 hours a week with your coworkers – you probably have a much bigger impact on their lives than on the lives of anyone who is affected by your actual work product.

    9. Epsilon Delta*

      I focus on early retirement, by which I mean around age 50, or sooner if I find some sort of agreeable part time work. I also avoid jobs that require “extra” time, like weekend or evening work.

      Having a set of coworkers who I like as human beings helps a lot, as does working for a company that values its employees. Took a couple tries to find such a job, but now that I have, I’m sticking with it!

    10. Generic Name*

      A couple of things that jump out at me. One is that I’m sensing some black and white thinking in terms of a job being “fulfilling on a deep soul level” versus “meh at best”. There’s lots in between those two extremes. You can love, like, generally enjoy, not hate, etc. your job. I really do enjoy my work, but it doesn’t feed my soul. It’s a job, and I do it for 40 hours a week in exchange for pay. Which leads me to the other thing that jumped out at me. You say that you hate “wasting 40 hours a week” on something that’s boring at best. But is it a waste? I mean, you get paid, right? If you didn’t exchange 40 hours a week for pay, could you support yourself? If you don’t need a job in order to pay for necessities such as food and rent/mortgage, well you are in a truly enviable position, and feel free to quit your boring job and volunteer somewhere that you’re passionate about. There are tons of wealthy philanthropists out there that do this.

    11. TK*

      I think the catch is that when you say “it lets me do the things I want to do outside of work” the things you want to do outside of work can’t just be consumption. They have to be things that make you feel like you’re doing something worthwhile with your life.

      When I was trapped in the rut you describe, I was working 40 hours, eating a huge commute, and saying, “Well it pays for my Netflix subscription. It pays for me to buy new clothes. It pays for me to go to the theatre now and then.” My life was just a cycle between going to work and doing something I didn’t like, and then consuming things to try to feel pleasure. It didn’t feel like a good way to live, and it was because I hadn’t found the thing that gives my life purpose.

      In the intervening time, there were some Bad Events that made me lose my job and pretty much the only benefit of that was that I had time to discover what I really want to be doing with my life — and it’s something that probably won’t ever make me much money, but it makes me happy and fulfilled in a way I’ve never been.

      So now the “things I want to do” outside of work are things that deeply fulfill me and give my life a sense of purpose, rather than just buying stuff. And that can really change the way you look at it, and make you place less weight on whatever your job actually is.

    12. Wordybird*

      For me, it was helpful to figure out what is most important to me in life, what values I hold most dear, and then apply those to everything — including work.

      I am an INFJ who is an empath/HSP & an Enneagram 1 so it is most important to me that I am working at a job/company/field that is making a difference in the world and that that job/company/field is highly ethical, reliable, and responsible. While my particular job does not use all of the skillset I possess and is not my “dream” job, it does make a difference in the world and is part of a highly-regulated “do good” field that I’m proud to say I work in. It is also very important that I work from home and have a job that is not customer-facing to prevent myself from being burnt out and from triggering my anxiety & depression (things that have happened to me in the past in more customer service-oriented roles). While this particular job does not pay me as much as I have made in other roles or as much as I think I have proven I’m worth, it is fully remote (even before COVID) and mostly internal-facing work and that is a huge emotional burden/toll I’m glad I no longer have to deal with.

      I’m now in my 40s and have realized financial and emotional stability is worth more to me and a more satisfying dream to fulfill than any “dream” job or career I could have. That’s not to say that I don’t hope I continue to progress and learn new skills and potentially take another job down the road but that I don’t define myself solely by what work I do. My job is one part of me, not all of me, and as long as as much of my life — work, volunteering, relationships, etc. — as possible makes a difference and keeps me financially & emotionally stable, it is a life worth living and a good life.

  65. EnfysNest*

    When using Indeed for job searching, does it make a difference whether you apply directly through Indeed or look up the company’s website and apply there? I had one recently where Indeed would have had me applying for just one position, but the website just had a general “enter your info and we’ll see if we like you for anything” option, so I wasn’t sure if it was better to apply for the specific position on Indeed or through the more generic form on the company website, and I’ve spotted a couple others with slightly different processes and I don’t know if it makes any difference.

    1. Zephy*

      It’s probably better to apply directly to the company whenever possible – you never know how Indeed will interface with their ATS and there’s a chance your profile/resume will come through garbled or missing key information.

      2. Fran Fine*

        Second this. I’m also much more likely to get callbacks when I apply directly on the company’s site versus through a job board.

    2. Gelie Fish*

      I would take the company option. We would have people apply through Indeed but since it didn’t include our requirements we wouldn’t look at.

  66. Feeling Guilty*

    My company has been working remotely during COVID and we will soon return to working in the office three days a week with work from home two days a week. The new policy is that current employees can apply to work remotely full time only if they live too far away to commute and if they have an obligation that is requiring them to relocate. The obligation must be approved by the CEO and he has denied requests from people who want to move for reasons such as better weather, cheaper cost of living, etc. since those are not obligations. I was approved to relocate and be full time remote because my husband’s company is relocating him halfway across the country. I feel so guilty taking advantage of this benefit that is being denied to so many of my colleagues. Quitting is not an option because jobs in my industry are non-existent in my new place. How do I deal with this guilt? Thanks!

    1. LKW*

      Don’t. The CEO laid the groundwork. You have a specific reason. That reason falls within the criteria set by your CEO. Your coworkers should have come up with better reasons for moving.

    2. PollyQ*

      You tell yourself that you haven’t done anything wrong, at all, not even a little bit. Your CEO is the one setting and applying the rules, and your getting permission in no way caused anyone else not to get permission. If your colleagues are unhappy (and I wouldn’t blame them), they’re free to hunt for jobs where they could WFH full-time or perhaps lobby as a group to loosen the requirements.

    3. RagingADHD*

      You are not taking anything away from your coworkers. You are just living your life.

      I can certainly see how “gee, I’d like to live in a warmer climate and work remotely” is not an obligation, while “I’d like to continue cohabitating with my spouse” is.

      The policy is not arbitrary or unreasonable. They don’t want to be 100% remote, and have to draw the line somewhere.

      Your taking the benefit doesn’t harm them, and if you refused it, that wouldn’t help them. They are fine. They don’t need your guilt.

  67. Bruton Gaster*

    Not advice seeking, but curious about everyone’s thoughts on a fictional workplace scenario from the series “Psych”

    In season 2, episode 13, Detective Juliet O’Hara sees a new uniformed cop, Penny. Noting that it’s hard to be a woman in the field, O’Hara walks over, introduces herself, and offers to be of assistance. Penny is pretty hostile in her response. Later, O’Hara buys her a red velvet cupcake since she notices Penny likes them. Penny responds by filing a harassment charge.

    Is that harassment..? I have been harassed in the workplace and to me, it just felt like O’Hara was struggling to read the room. As an exercise, I did swap genders but ultimately that felt that due to gender imbalance in the workplace, it didn’t feel like the right way to arrive at a solution.

    1. LKW*

      Not harassment but could be construed as “creepy”. Think experienced guy cop buys cupcake for new female cop because he noticed she liked red-velvet cupcakes. Kinda creepy to notice the cupcake type.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      The “offers to be of assistance” is condescending. To have someone (of either gender) come up to a new person out of the blue and offer assistance BECAUSE THE NEW PERSON IS A WOMAN, is gross and sexist. Moreover, having been told that the attention was not welcome, to watch the person long enough to note their favorite cake and then provide it is stalkerish. I do agree that it is a “read the room” problem, but it started out bad from the get go. You want to welcome more women into the profession? Say “Hi, I’m Detective O’Hara.” Full stop.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        To have someone (of either gender) come up to a new person out of the blue and offer assistance BECAUSE THE NEW PERSON IS A WOMAN, is gross and sexist.

        But what if it came from a place of “as a woman who has already gone through this, I know what’s going to happen here?” The cupcake is creepy, but the offer of assistance to someone in the minority, like yourself, feels more like support to me. (Until you’re told it’s not welcome, obviously!)

        1. LadyByTheLake*

          Maybe it was in the phrasing, but there’s a huge difference between going up to someone you don’t know and “offer assistance” out of the blue vs introducing yourself and over time as you get to know the person, being a sounding board, and just being available as a resource etc. The first is demeaning and offensive — it is announcing that you think the person needs (and would welcome) help just because of their gender. That makes me so mad I could spit. And I say that as a woman who entered a very male-dominated field 30+ years ago. Yes, the women bonded and helped each other, but it was an “opt in” situation that grew organically, not people going up to strangers and offering unsolicited help.

          1. Bruton Gaster*

            To be fair, I did not give the exact quote, just described the scene. I don’t remember it being particularly paternalistic, but I’m going to rewatch and see if it is (and if you have Prime, it’s season 2, episode 13- “Lights, Camera, Homicidio”).

            I’m also a woman in a male dominated field. YMMV in feelings towards offers of assistance, but I would welcome overt solidarity and offers of assistance since I need all the support I can get. It’s an uphill battle and I don’t want to go at it alone, nor do I want my comrades and co-conspirators to, either. That said, that’s me! And I understand your perspective as well.

          2. ferrina*

            I agree with LadyByTheLake. If I’m remembering the scene correctly, the way O’Hara did it was very “since you’re a woman, and you know, it’s tough for us women, and I can guide you through being a woman in a male dominated workplace….” like the new cop had never been a woman before!

            It’s good to introduce yourself to a new person and say “If you need any help, just let me know, I’m happy to answer any questions or point you toward resources that are available”, but implying that they’ll need extra help because of their gender/protected class is….not cool. Only exception is to alert them to any known culprits they may need to deal with- “watch out for Creepy Guy, he’s been known to be extra creepy to new hires.”

    3. RagingADHD*

      I’m not familiar with the scene, but it sounds like Penny over-reacted.

      But, I mean, is “Psych” even supposed to be realistic anyway? It sounds like the scene was written to escalate dramatic conflict, not to be a primer on best practices at work.

      1. ferrina*

        Nah, Juliet was over-the-top omg-we-MUS-be-friends!! (in keeping with Psych’s over-the-top style). I’d be avoiding Juliet in that episode, too!
        Harassment, maybe not. But definitely a chat with HR.

        1. allathian*

          Perhaps not harassment in the legal sense, but here it’s the effect rather than the intention that counts. Whatever O’Hara’s intentions were, her attention was obviously unwelcome to Penny. Now I haven’t seen Psych so I don’t know the characters or the show, so take that as you will.

  68. Warrant Officer Georgiana Breakspear-Goldfinch*

    My boss has told me, and written in my just-filed annual review, that he supports my promotion to Senior Llama Comber. When and how should I follow up to make sure this actually happens and doesn’t fall off the radar?

    1. Haha Lala*

      Follow up with your boss now!
      Both to say thanks for the endorsement, and to ask what he thinks the timeline would be or what your next steps need to be for that promotion.
      Depending what he says, maybe you sit on it for a few weeks/months, or maybe you sign up for the training he recommends, or maybe you have to apply for the promotion specifically.

      1. Warrant Officer Georgiana Breakspear-Goldfinch*

        Oh, I did that already! We’ve been talking about this for a while, but I don’t know how to remind him to chase HR now that the annual review is in their system. (They drag their feet on everything.)

        1. ferrina*

          What was the timeline your boss recommended? Got with that. If there wasn’t a timeline, I’d say give it a couple weeks, then gently follow up “Hey, I realize it might be a bit early, but just wondering if you’d heard anything following up on a possible promotion?”

  69. Nervous New Grad*

    What’s the etiquette around changing your location while working remote?

    I’m at my first full time job and permanent WFH. I realize this does give me some mobility to not necessarily work from one location, as all I need to work is my laptop. My dad lives in another state and I’m thinking about going to visit and staying with him for a little while at the end of the summer. What’s the etiquette around this? Do I give my manager/team a heads up and inform them I’m going to be in a different location than normal, do I ask them for permission, or do I just do it and only mention it if anyone asks? I wouldn’t be taking any time off, I would plan the actual travel on weekends. I don’t know if it would look bad or seem frivolous? Overall I doubt it would effect my work very much, minus my schedule just being offset an hour or so to account for the time difference, I would just be doing the same work in a different house. Is there any courtesy owed to my employer around moving around as a remote employee?

    1. Annony*

      There are two things to keep in mind. You may need to adjust your schedule so that you are still available at the times you normally would. So if you generally work 9-5, you may need to work 8-4 or 10-6 depending on the time zone. The other potential problem is that working from another state can have tax implications for the company. I don’t know what amount of time would potentially make it an issue. I think your choices are to ask them about it in advance or not tell them at all.

    2. mediamaven*

      There are different definitions in regards to WFH – a dedicated workspace in your house – and work from anywhere. The first step is to figure out which of those you your workplace expects.

    3. PollyQ*

      Etiquette is less of a problem than the law, which may have something to say about your company having an employee working in a different state, due to taxes, varying employment laws, etc. Because of that, I would definitely ask permission before you do it. Your employer may not care about a week or two, but they should at least get the heads up and choice as to whether they want to allow it.

    4. Nervous New Grad*

      Thanks for the responses so far! It sounds like the main issue would actually be if there are any tax concerns around working in a different state.
      My permanent residence and where I normally work is the state I live in now, and that is the state I pay taxes to. So follow up question I guess is, would there still be legal considerations if I am only visiting briefly while working from another state? i.e. If I were to only stay with my dad for a week or two to visit in Other State but working my normal schedule that whole time?
      And any suggestions on wording to broach this conversation with my manager? Again, I don’t want to sound frivolous or like I’m abusing my WFH status to take a vacation, as I’d really be doing the same work just in a different house.

      1. Fran Fine*

        If you’re really only planning to stay a week or two, there shouldn’t be any tax implications for that. I’ve traveled for business and worked out of hotels in other states for that same time period and never had any issues. Still, you should give your manager a heads up anyway so that if there is an issue we’re not aware of, your boss won’t be blindsided and can broach it with you upfront.

    5. Skeeder Jones*

      You should check and see what your company policies are about working from other states. My employer has it in their policy that you can only work 31 days per year in a state where you don’t reside AND only certain states are permitted AND only certain job types are permitted. Better to find out now than to lose a job over it.

  70. Waiting to hear back*

    I’m currently on the market for a new challenge, and I’ve been having interviews and I follow askamanager community practice on following up after employer’s dictated timeline. The wait after the interviews are so annoying! How do you guys find distractions between interviews and decisions?

    1. Chaordic One*

      I find that the best way to deal with each interview is to assume that I didn’t get the position and to continue with my job search. If you don’t expect the best, you won’t be disappointed when it doesn’t happen.

      And forget about any timeline they might give you. Timelines typically get extended and no one will tell you. (That would be considerate and professional, which is too much to expect from employers and potential employers.)

      I don’t think of myself as being cynical. I think of myself as being realistic.

      1. ferrina*

        ^ This. I treat an interview like a chat at a conference happy hour “well, this person was lovely and I enjoyed talking to them! Maybe we’ll chat again some day. Meh, probably not.”

        And Chaordic One is totally right on the timeline- there’s all kinds of reasons it can get extended, and if we always told every candidate when it got extended, it would likely be even more demoralizing (can you imagine getting a weekly email pushing back the hiring timeline?)

        This is also why I always save the job description after every application and make notes after every interview. I assume I won’t get it, put it out of my head, then need to remind myself if they do call back!
        I’ve also found it helpful not to talk about my job search to anyone. The last thing I need are well-wishers reminding me about this stress point that I’m trying to ignore! That helps me, at least.

  71. Rabbit*

    Danny’s advice on anything relating to work on Dear Prudence was always horrific and liable to get someone fired / make their work life a nightmare so I’m not surprised. Mind you, his advice on parenting or anything to do with personal possessions was also dangerously bad. As for Mara Wilson – people can be funny on twitter and still be terrible at real-life advice, especially if they have lived in a weird bubble their entire lives

  72. Dewey Cheatum and Howe*

    I’m debating on leaving my big law associate job for an associate job at a regional firm in my Midwest home town. It’s a very big paycut, which I was expecting, but not quite to this extent, as it’s nearly a 50% cut. I’m willing to take the paycut, but not if it means working the same crappy hours, and while I was interviewing, a few associates at about my level informed me that they are on track to bill the same amount as I’m currently billing at in my big law role. I am looking to move to back to the Midwest sooner rather than later.

    A few wrinkles:

    (i) this is the only firm in this region that has the same niche practice as me, so this is kind of my one opportunity to make a switch unless I make a practice change, which I’m willing to do, but it’s unclear whether another firm would be willing to retool me;

    (ii) I would be coming in at a year junior to my current level. This is not uncommon, and I have no interest in partnership track, but it’s possibly the reason the salary is less than I was expecting. I’m not sure if there are other reasons I should be concerned about this;

    (iii) I’m honestly really burnt out on private practice and I think the only real reason I’m interested in this job is the location. My current firm will not let me be full time remote; and

    (iv) I would possibly be giving up a bonus, depending on whether they’d let me push out my start date. It’s not a small amount of money, but I think I would be less bothered if I was more excited about the role.

    Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

    1. Avocado at Law*

      Great user name! I’m an attorney, also at a regional firm with a “niche” practice area. What’s the bigger priority to you: location or working fewer hours?

      1. Dewey Cheatum and Howe*

        Haha thanks!

        I think in the shorter term, the hours are the bigger concern, while in the longer term, I want to prioritize the location. I had a particularly rough quarter and frankly really need a vacation, but I’ve basically worked the past two vacations I’ve had which doesn’t really help.

        How do you like working at a regional firm? Do you sense your hours differ from a larger firm?

        1. Avocado at Law*

          I can’t compare to BigLaw because I never worked there. I went nonprofit to government to this. Weird path I know, but my last two jobs gave me the niche knowledge I needed for this. Think environmental advocacy to State vaguely-environmental agency, and now the firm I work for reps local public water/gas agencies.

          I like my job. My billable hours are lower than my friends in BigLaw. Only 1800. In general, my experience is similar to LadyByTheLake below. I care about this work so I’m happy to do it. I am less drained than my nonprofit days, which says a lot! Unlike Lady, I am expected to be minimally connected to email on days off (checking once in the morning and evening to make sure nothing is on fire, passing off on-fire things to others in the office). But people are kind and not “work/firm is life” so it’s a small price to pay.

          1. Dewey Cheatum and Howe*

            Thanks Avocado, this is helpful. Your practice sounds really interesting and I bet there’s a lot of job security in representing public utilities. I can’t say I’m particularly passionate about what I do, but I like it well enough and understand it would be more of the same at the regional firm. You mentioned you need to check in while you’re out, do you have a lot of weekend work as well?

            It’s really the hours that are holding me up at this point. Like if I’m working the same crappy hours, why should I take such a big paycut? The recruiter I’m working with did seem surprised by that and I know a lot of people have had a busy year, myself included, so maybe this year’s hours are an outlier.

            1. Avocado at Law*

              Will they be the “same crappy hours,” though? Rather, will the content of the hours be equally crappy? My hours have been high this year due to COVID-related work and appeals, but I enjoy it and I have coworkers and clients who are focused on getting the agencies through this pandemic, so it doesn’t feel crappy all the time. I would not have said the same at my 40 hour per week nonprofit job. All 40 of those hours were crappy hours lol.

              1. Dewey Cheatum and Howe*

                This is a good question. TBH, because the work is the same, I don’t think the quality of hours will vary much, although it is something to consider. Mostly I want my weekends back. I don’t mind late evenings, but I’d like to log off Friday night and not look at my email until Sunday night. This is probably not super likely at

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      I moved from BigLaw to Big Regional and the difference was dramatic. Mostly it was the expectations — my first BigLaw job was very big on “devotion to the firm” (that was something that associates actually got reviewed on). Doing things to show that the Firm was the Most Important were valued, particularly if it involved missing children’s birthdays or school plays, cancelling or coming back from vacations early, working VERY late nights etc. In other words, there was a big performative element about working long hours. The Regional was so different — there you worked when you had to and didn’t work when you didn’t. Vacations and family always came first. I actually worked more hours at the Regional (they had a bonus system that made that very lucrative for me), but I didn’t feel it nearly so much because I was doing it in a way that worked for me, I was doing it because I was wrapped up in and enjoying my work, and when it was time for vacation or anything else the attitude was “great, have a good time, see you when you get back!”

      1. Dewey Cheatum and Howe*

        Thanks, this is really helpful! Do you have any regrets or things you wished you knew before you made the transition from Big Law to Big Regional?

        1. LadyByTheLake*

          Heck NO! I hated my job in BigLaw, so much so that I thought I didn’t like law. Turns out, I love practicing law — just not at BigLaw Firm. After leaving Regional Law I transitioned to in-house, which I love even more. One time while I was at BigLaw I was home and miserable and I asked myself, “how much money would make this misery worthwhile?” It was a pretty big number (approximately 20 times more than I was making). So it was clear that the (very large) salary that I was making at BigLaw didn’t compensate for how unhappy I was. Regional Law had all the benefits of BigLaw — nice offices, prestige, smart colleagues, good tech and admin support, etc — but it was just such a more healthy and happy place to be. Nothing’s perfect — there were annoyances and some jerkish partners, but nothing like BigLaw.

          1. Dewey Cheatum and Howe*

            Thanks LadyByTheLake, it sounds like the change in lifestyle was completely worth the decrease in pay.

            To be honest, you and Avocado at Law are selling me on this job more than I was expecting when I posted here.

            1. Ugh*

              Hmmmm. Glad those other two had good experiences, but if you’ve already heard that the associates at your new firm are working the same hours you are now, that is better evidence of what to expect. And it does sound like you’d be working just as hard for half the pay. Sounds awful.

              1. Dewey Cheatum and Howe*

                You’re also correct and this is my biggest concern. I’m wondering (and am maybe overly hopeful) that the current associates are working these hours because they’re understaffed and if I were to join, maybe the hours would be spread out more? I may try and see if I can have a follow up conversation with one of the associates to get a sense if this year is an outlier or if these are typical hours of the group.

    3. A Lawyer's Parent*

      Love the shout out to Car Talk! Kiddo went from law school to old, big regional firm. Hated it. The money was good but they were very much butts in seats so although they said there was flexibility in the starting hours, Kiddo was frowned upon for leaving early every Friday, made possible by starting super early Mon – Thurs. Went on vacation overseas (Ok’d by their managing partner) and one of the partners was upset that they couldn’t be reached immediately. Apparently the other well-known firms here are similar, and one is worse (it chewed up a number lawyers Kiddo knew, who left after being burned out – they had to achieve a higher number of billable hours). Kiddo is still in law, but with a small firm which has a lot of flexibility and is loving it.

      1. Dewey Cheatum and Howe*

        My favorite car talk employee is the Russian chauffeur, Pikup und Dropov.

        Thanks for the perspective, glad your kiddo has better hours now. My concern is that I’d honestly be happy to take the paycut, but I really don’t want weekend work. I don’t mind later evenings, but want my weekends back, and I’m not sure how likely that actually is given the feedback I’ve received.

        1. LadyByTheLake*

          It is very dependent on the specific firm, specific practice, specific partner. Talk to the current associates in your practice area separately. As questions like “how is Partner to work with?” (for each partner). If you get anything other than glowing reviews, probe. If the partner is describes as “demanding” ask for examples to see if that means “irrational asshole” or simply that they demand excellence in the work. Ask about what kind of work the associates are doing. At BigLaw or MegaLaw, associates often get stuck doing doc review/due diligence for years on end, but the Regional Law associates often have more interesting work. Ask about why they are working the hours that they are working — is it grunt work, performative hours, understaffing, or usual expectation? Now that you have some years under your belt, you should be able to ask the right probing questions to get real answers.

          1. Dewey Cheatum and Howe*

            Thanks, yeah I think the answer lies in further diligence with the associates. These are good questions to consider.

      2. Prof. Sneed*

        Three Stooges joke long before it was a Car Talk joke, and probably from vaudeville way before then.

    4. Another JD*

      If Big Regional isn’t willing to put your billable hours requirements and the bonus structure in writing, I’d be very wary. Obviously your hours can change based on the crisis du jour (hello appellate briefs!), but you should know the general expectations. I’m in Small Law and have definitely traded salary for work/life balance, but it’s worth it for me.

  73. Unplugged*

    I’ll be taking my first real vacation since I started at this company (which was during lockdown) in a couple of weeks and I’m super excited! I very badly need it. I have noticed that several of my colleagues who have recently taken vacations have been sending emails/slack messages while they’re supposed to be ooo. In my last office, this was not a thing people did. No one has told me I need to check my email while I’m away and I absolutely am not bringing my laptop to a tropical island. I had planned to put up my ooo and then not check email until after I got back. So I guess my question is… has anyone experienced negative consequences from doing that? I’ve never worked somewhere where people have been expected to work during vacations before.

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      Check in with your manager about expectations. Every workplace and manager is a little different in this regard.

    2. elle*

      Presumably folks have your cell if there was a real emergency? I think that’s plenty if no one has told you otherwise. You can also ask your manager for guidance they should be able to give you.

    3. Decidedly Me*

      I’d ask your manager. Just because people are doing this doesn’t necessarily mean that’s the expectation. Where I’m at, there’s an expectation that you provide a way to reach you if absolutely necessary, but that’s it. Some folks check on things during vacations, but they are usually asked why they are checking in and not enjoying their time off :)

  74. I'm way too young for this*

    Any tips for dealing with hot flashes *while teaching*? I’m not back to school yet, but if we can’t resolve these medically, I’m trying to develop some strategies for when I lose focus because I want to crawl out of my skin. They’re occurring every 30 minutes pretty regularly, so I’m likely to have each class I teach (college) mentally interrupted at least once.

    1. Disco Janet*

      If you have some money available to throw at this problem, there are wearable devices for this! Like bracelets where when you push a button it enables a cooling feature to lower your body temperature.

    2. beach read*

      Discretely located, quiet fan with remote control hidden under the desk or behind a stack of books? Cooling gel seat for your chair? Tiny fan necklace? In fact I have seen large flat ‘ice packs’ that store in the freezer. Maybe you could rig it up to the back of your chair or something.

  75. Help me? Or don’t?*

    How do I use my secretary? Or, how do you use your secretary? For context, I’m a newish attorney, working at a mid-size law firm. We did not have a high level of secretarial support at my prior job, so I’m used to doing a lot of things myself.

    My general rule so far has been: If it’s faster to do it myself than email her instructions, I’ll do it myself. For example, I’m good with our electronic doc management system, so I will save docs that clients email me in the system myself. It would take me longer to type out an email to my secretary with instructions on what to name the file and where to save it.

    I use my secretary for things I cannot do myself (serving docs, e-filing) and paper-heavy admin tasks like preparing exhibit binders, mailing, or requesting reimbursements.

    I have talked to my secretary about broadly what tasks she can/should do, but I don’t want to constantly ask “Do you do this? What about this? What about this task?”

    What are your thoughts? Thank you!!

    1. Ann Perkins*

      Former paralegal here. Figure out what your time consuming, non-billable tasks are and offload those! But put in systems in place so that she knows what you want without having to reiterate each time.

      In your example of the electronic doc system – you shouldn’t need to tell her each time what to name the file and where to save it. Decide on a standard naming convention (if your firm doesn’t already have one in place) and she should be able to determine the client file. Forward emails with docs to save with a simple (file attachments please thanks) and move on. Just make sure she knows upfront what your expectations are and figure out systems that work for both of you. If you don’t already, have a weekly quick touchbase on open items or discussion on what’s working/not working.

      1. RagingADHD*

        Yes, whenever I’ve worked with a doc mgt system the filenames are a given. I’d just need the appropriate client code to use.

    2. My Brain Is Exploding*

      Your approach sounds reasonable. If you have more questions, is there a managing partner you report to or a mentor in the firm? Or someone in the firm who is more senior than you that you would feel comfortable asking? I would ask one of them.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Your time is more expensive than hers, so your plan to do it yourself if it takes longer to explain it makes sense – UNLESS it’s something you could explain once (“here’s the system I use for file names”) and then let her run with it.

    4. Help me! Or don’t?*

      Thank you, everyone! I think I’ll take next week to make a Nonbillable Things I Do list and then I’ll sit down with her and be like “Here’s how I’d like this done, can you take over these tasks in this way from now on?” But let me make the list first! Thanks again for your perspectives!

    5. RagingADHD*

      Some of the stuff I used to do as a legal secretary:

      Calendar management/setting up internal & external meetings.

      Drafting cover letters and other correspondence.

      Screening calls.

      Inbox management to sort and prioritize both email and physical/interoffice mail, flag time-sensitive items, and divert FYI/memo-to-file type stuff into the correct files.

      Setting up & maintaining client files.

      Following up on requests or signatures if they need to be done asynchronously. Bugging other lawyer’s secretaries about delayed responses.

      Creating document sets for a new client or case from templates, or creating boilerplate draft documents as directed.

      Lots of word-processing for the folks who still liked marking up hard copy.

      Arranging copies, couriers, catering, etc.

      Arranging client-appreciation gestures, like sending company swag.

      Entering / updating time records, preparing expense reports, getting approvals on expenses, bills, or writeoffs, etc.

      At some firms, the senior partners were expected to get more hands-on service than junior partners or associates (I’d never do inbox management for an associate, for example). But you should certainly ask your peers and your secretary about what’s customary at the new firm.

      And if your secretary has been with the practice team for a while, they will have lots of institutional knowledge about client history. Pick their brains!

    6. Churlish Chica*

      Am currently a paralegal. I see my primary job function as making it as easy as possible for my attorney to focus on the more complex and billable aspects of her work. She cc’s me on most of her emails and it’s understood that if a client sends her documents, that it’s me who will be saving them to electronic file. We’ve been working together for 2 years so I have a good feel for what she wants done. A general list of my tasks are:
      – format and finalize correspondence; send out via email or hard copy
      – review and finalize all pleadings for e-filing & save file stamped version of same to file; for hard copy filings get everything ready for her signature and then serve
      – coordinate mediation dates
      – hound clients for discovery; redact and bates number same
      – draft basic filings such as notice of hearings, calendar requests, notice of depositions, motions and orders for ext of time
      – CALENDAR ALL THE DATES!! We have a docketing system where dates are calendared with reminders 3 different ways so that things don’t get overlooked
      – set up phone calls or zoom meetings
      – talk to potential clients and run conflict checks on same
      – enter her time each week and run bills at the end of the month

      Even though something may be quicker for you to do as a one-off task, if it’s a recurring task, it probably makes sense for your assistant to do anything admin. I have an assistant that I hand my overflow off to so I understand the dilemma of wondering if it’s worth it to take the time to teach her versus doing it myself so I know that’s not always a simple call to make.

  76. SaraV*

    So how do I approach open interviews?

    Big Annual Thing (obviously cancelled laat year) that takes place over ten days needs people to work in a capacity very similar to what my FT job is. Tuesday, I filled out the online application and submitted it. I have not heard anything back, not even a confirmation email.

    Next week, they’re holding open interviews. Do I print off some resumes and go? Big Annual Thing’s website says on their front page where you click to go to the employment section “Apply today for open positions or attend hiring job fair.”

    Sorry, open interviews are new to me.

  77. Persephone*

    Thoughts on having to supervise (no hire/fire authority) someone who won’t engage with you at all if they think you’ve slighted them? Like all questions get yes/no and ALL things like “I’d like your thoughts on how to handle the Jones account” get “I haven’t thought about it,”

    1. Malarkey01*

      Is it that your position doesn’t have the authority or that you’ve been told we will never fire someone?
      In both cases I’d have a direct conversation about the behavior and how it cannot continue. That you need them to engage with you on this work and they are responsible for providing feedback/details/information whatever is appropriate. You can say failure to do that will affect your success here (whether that’s getting to work on project, performance reviews, whatever you do have authority to do).

      Loop in your boss on all of this, document the issue, explain the business problem created and things you’ve done to work on it. Then find out what consequences you can use or what management will allow. If it’s we will never fire them than you work around them and be clear with management that you aren’t going to be able to get more under these circumstances.

      1. Teapot supervisor*

        Ultimately, yes.

        I’m not sure how supervisor-y your role is but my position is one-offs I deal with (so maybe ‘I haven’t thought about it’, ‘I would appreciate your input on it. Have a think about it and I’ll check back in with you in [appropriate time period]’).

        YMMV depending on details of your role but behaviour which have pattern I check in with my boss on how they want me to deal with it (‘Hey boss! I’m having a problem with Jane’s engagement on the teapot project. [Specifics here, including what knock on effect it’s having on work – so not just Jane should be more engaged with her work because it’s the right thing to do]. I was thinking about [details of conversation] you plan to have. Are you happy with that or would you rather approach it another way?’).

        If they say I should do it, then it’s a conversation along the lines of, ‘Jane, I’ve noticed you’re not engaging with work because [example]. That’s a problem because [reason – and, if this bit is true, you can add in something like ‘until I see improvement in this area, I can’t move you onto (big project/complex work/task that requires creative thinking)’]. What can we do to address this?’

        But, if boss says leave it to them or employee still hasn’t improved, there’s really not a great deal you can do and you need your manager’s backing.

    3. Persphone*

      Sorry, all, for my non-responsiveness. I had some kind of glitch where it wouldn’t post (internet issue maybe??).

      Anyway, the lack of hire/fire authority is my position.

      I had to deal with it in the moment, obviously, and of course this happens when our mutual boss is out (I’m like “assistant boss” and half the stuff Boss oversees falls under me and half under another “assistant boss” – and we are basically delegated all the projects/portfolios in our respective area and the teams that work them.

      Anyway, thanks for confirming I’m not crazy. It wasn’t just one thing, and it wasn’t stuff like “oh, hmm, I hadn’t thought about it,” but more “I haven’t thought about it” said in a tone of “I’m not going to really respond” .

      I’d say more about it, but my coworkers read this and any more detail would be too identifying…

  78. Career Switch*

    People who did pretty drastic career switches: does it ever feel, to you and everyone else, like you’re an actual expert in your new field??

    I recently moved into a job in a wildly different area from my studies and previous experience – think a lawyer getting into accounting – without any official studies, just self training with the help of my company. It’s going well, but I struggle being “junior” after being “senior” for a bit (though I’m pretty early in my career!).

    Today an old acquaintance, who is an “accountant” and knows about the switch, messaged me to ask if I’m interested in a job that would have been a better match for my old career (still not great), but has nothing to do with my new one – maybe researcher for a law journal, when I was an attorney. I’m feeling pretty bummed. My new career is considered more technical than the old, the switch is very rare, and I’m a woman in a male dominated industry; this gesture has made me feel like I’m still a “law person” in everyone’s eyes. Knowing the guy, it was well meant if slightly motivated by sexism, but I can’t shake the feeling and wanted to hear from others in a similar situation!

    Sorry to all lawyers and accountants out there for the botched metaphors!

      1. Career Switch*

        That’s better than I was thinking! I’m quite young, 5-10 years is ok with me. Thanks

    2. AnotherAlison*

      So, I changed companies and careers from being an “accountant” to a “lawyer” and 2 months in, they asked me to take on a short term “accountant” role because the guy slated to fill the role got hung up finishing other work for a few more MONTHS than planned. I just finished that up and returned to my “lawyer” position. At another point in my career, I was also a “lawyer”, but in a different area of practice. After a month back on the “lawyer” work, I think I hate this job and don’t feel like I’m good at it. The seniority and authority that I’m missing is a big deal, and there is less of what I’m good at and more of what I would like to be good at but am not in this role than my previous “lawyer” role.

      I WISH someone would call me up with an accountant-adjacent role! Maybe your acquaintance just wanted to test the waters. I definitely get where you’re coming from, but I would reiterate that you’re happy with your new career and move on.

      (FWIW, the accountant role here is much less responsibility than my old role, like being a bookkeeper vs. a CPA. I would not like to do that permanently here, either. But my old job worked me to death. I can’t win.)

      1. Career Switch*

        Thanks for the input!! It helps to see my acquaintance’s comment in that light. I don’t think I’ll ever go back to “law” if only because there’s one law job for every 1000 accounting ones :(

        Hope things end up working out for you!

    3. Filosofickle*

      IMO it’s unlikely his message was meant to undermine you! He saw a thing and thought of you because there’s an association between you and the thing in his mind. Old info is sticker than new info.

      I switched careers ten years ago and I’m amazed at how often friends and colleagues still think I do the old thing. They sometimes even hope they can hire me to do the old thing. Ten years!

      1. Career Switch*

        Thanks – same as AnotherAlison’s comment, it helps to change my perspective of the guy’s comment. Also helps to know I’ll probably be dealing with this in the long run, I’ll try not to spiral every time it happens!

      2. Filosofickle*

        p.s. I’d say it took me ~5 years to feel solid and confident in my new skills. The first 2 felt very chaotic, I had been in a place of real mastery in my old field and wasn’t used to being slow or struggling so much. Somewhere around year 5 or 6 I realized: Hey! I really know what I’m doing! I’d probably had that mastery for a little while without really noticing.

        1. Career Switch*

          That’s exactly how I feel! Completely out of my depth being new at something. It’s great to hear that it got better for you after a few years! That’s what I’m hoping for.

  79. LongTimeReader*

    I took a big leap in leaving my company of 15 years back at the end of last year, but now I find myself plotting how to get out of my current place. My (also new) manager wants it to be great, but they have a small group of long-time execs who have been making the decisions for 20 years, and while they’ve hired some good talent, they do whatever the CEO’s gut says to do rather than what the analysis or market-expert managers recommend.

    Anyway. I’m looking for a new job, but I’m also considering going out on my own. My main experience is in the old power industry (18 yrs), but I’ve worked on some renewables, carbon capture, microgrids, and electric vehicle infrastructure for 3 years combined. My education is in engineering and business, but I don’t have a deep technical base in new stuff. I’ve worked with a lot of energy project developers, and my jobs have been with engineering and construction companies. I think I could get into an energy niche of sustainability consulting.

    The problem is that I get really excited about this, but when I go to do my research and due diligence, I stop myself. I think this is the only thing I can do at this point. My previous company really burned me out, and I am pretty sure jobs at companies like that will be very similar. My current company is idiotic. Smaller firms don’t pay what I want, or are very specialized consultants (wrongly) looking for fancier credentials (i.e. big name schools, McKinsey past, while I have licensing, certifications, and boots-on-the-ground work history).

    Anyone go out on their own by choice, and how did you get the confidence to take the first step?

  80. GrumpyGnome*

    My supervisor went out on maternity leave in March for 16 weeks. Instead of having a temporary supervisor, we just reported to our grandboss and we expected this is to be a pretty easy thing (not in terms of work, we’re swamped, but our grandboss didn’t get in our day-to-day work much). That is not what happened; someone on the team really needed to be a single point of contact for escalations from other areas and customers. We also needed a point person for our grandboss’s questions, which became more frequent. I sort of volunteered for that and my teammates were happy to let me do so; they also let me assign them work and ask them to handle certain projects even though I have zero authority to require that. We work very well as a team.

    Our grandboss put in notice mid-May, but before he left, he gave notice of lay offs to my team and me. After his departure, we were able to successfully demonstrate to our new boss that our work had been increasing, not decreasing as he had claimed, and we now have an extension to our lay off (and might be extended again).

    The problem: I’ve been acting in some capacity as a supervisor now for about four months. When we got the lay off notice, our supervisor ended up interviewing and securing a role elsewhere in the company. I’m now feeling that I’ll be in this quasi-supervisory role til we are finally let go later this year. I spend my entire day answering emails, researching escalations, reporting numbers, working on other projects that are time-intensive for research…. the only time I can do my usual job is on weekends or after hours. A few things I can kick up the chain, but so much requires either one of my two teammates or me to handle and it truly cannot be done by anyone else in the company. I spend all day putting out fires so that my teammates can do their jobs. I don’t want to do this but it’s far too late to back out, so I’m trying to just get through it and be happy I am earning a steady paycheck.

    If anyone has advice for navigating this feeling of being constantly overwhelmed, I’d appreciate hearing it. Also – how do I put this on my resume for the future since nothing is official? Thanks for reading my wall of text.

    1. elle*

      For the resume, I would list it as one of the bullet points under the real job title.

    2. Chaordic One*

      On your resume, I would list your official title followed by your acting title in parenthesis, maybe in the same line or on the line below. Something like:

      Llama Handler: 01/2019- present
      (Acting Llama Handler Supervisor: 03/2021 -present)

      1. WellRed*

        Yes this is how I’d do it. Also maybe stop working after hours and weekends. So stuff doesn’t get done? Well, it doesn’t get done.

      2. ferrina*

        Don’t do this. Often reference checkers will use that as a guide, and you don’t want them to call the company and say “So GrumpyGnome was the Acting Lead Llama Stylist, right?” and HR to say “No, they never did that.” That will be a big red flag for a company.
        Do include it in the bullets of accomplishments- “Absorbed responsibilities of Head Cat Herder when the position was vacated, including scheduling nap times and allocating kibble resources”. Even better is when you can quantify your accomplishments. “Client contact on X projects” or “managed X projects in Y months, coordinating a team of Z people”.
        Definitely add it in the cover letter. You can get more details of the story and highlight your successes and strategies there. This is what cover letters are made for!

        1. ferrina*

          For being overworked- Alison has some great advice here: https://www.askamanager.org/2011/04/help-my-workload-is-too-high-and-im-burning-out.html

          You can kick this up the chain insofar as their isn’t enough staff to get the work done. Say “Unfortunately, I’m at over 100% bandwidth I cannot get all the tasks done. I can get Task A and most of B done, but C will need to be postponed until (date/indefinitely). Let me know if you want me to prioritize this differently.”
          If they say you need to do everything, keep repeating “That is not possible. What would you like me to prioritize?”

          Make sure to take time for yourself! And whatever time you set aside, do not compromise that time! Maybe you are always “busy” on Sundays- they don’t need to know that you are busy recuperating!

          Good luck!

        2. GrumpyGnome*

          Thanks, Ferrina, adding more detail in the cover letter makes a lot of sense! I agree that I don’t want to make it look like an official title, even an ‘acting’ title because HR will not back that up. Fortunately, my former supervisor has already said she’s more than happy to look over my resume and cover letter and to serve as a reference for me.

    3. ferrina*

      For being overworked- Alison has some great advice in a post called “Help! My Workload is Too High and I’m Burning Out!” (sorry, it wouldn’t let me link the post)

      You can kick this up the chain insofar as their isn’t enough staff to get the work done. Say “Unfortunately, I’m at over 100% bandwidth I cannot get all the tasks done. I can get Task A and most of B done, but C will need to be postponed until (date/indefinitely). Let me know if you want me to prioritize this differently.”
      If they say you need to do everything, keep repeating “That is not possible. What would you like me to prioritize?”

      Make sure to take time for yourself! And whatever time you set aside, do not compromise that time! Maybe you are always “busy” on Sundays- they don’t need to know that you are busy recuperating!

      Good luck!

    4. Cantatatata*

      You are about to be laid off. Do not go above and beyond. Stop working at 5pm. Don’t do any work on weekends. If things fall on the floor, let them. Stop caring about the company, they have demonstrated that they don’t care about you. Instead, focus on finding a new job. Jump ship as soon as you can.

    5. Vesuvius*

      I’m really sorry you’re in this situation.

      I don’t know how your field works, but in my field, being made “team lead” didn’t necessarily come with a promotion. I found out after I quit (will comment about that later) that I was actually doing about 10-15% of the Senior Project Manager’s work (yes, I know) and that you usually need two professional licenses to hold the “team lead” position. But they couldn’t get anyone willing to do it after the last guy quit.

      The way I’ve been putting it on my resume is “supervised team of (X people) on a llama waste removal site for Y months,” since I was only there for ten months, in the job description. You can probably put “acted in supervisory capacity to fill in necessary gaps.” I used Alison’s advice here, and I’m now applying for roles (I quit Toxic Hell Job at the end of May) that involve some level of case management because now I have that experience.

      As far as being overwhelmed, the only thing that ever worked for me is delegating, and honestly, pushing your boss to hire more people. I understand that’s not possible for you, but is it possible for you to delegate some of the quasi-supervisory work around? Your whole team is being laid off soon, but it sounds like you’re doing two jobs, and are not paid for that. I don’t know how much of what you do can be delegated, but at my THJ a lot of the weird bs I was handling couldn’t be, but the generals of my specific job duties could be (the ones that didn’t require extra training).

  81. Man behind the desk*

    Customer service question: someone arrives 45 minutes late for an appointment. They say “My dog had puppies”. Now, we aren’t busy at the moment, so we *could* serve them … but we have a 20-minute lateness policy. They can reschedule without paying any additional fee. So I turn them away.

    Am I being mean?

    1. Man behind the desk*

      By the way, my supervisors tell me to use my own judgment in these matters. It’s really up to me. And the customers can see if we are not busy.

    2. CatCat*

      I don’t see much point in making them reschedule if they can be served now. You can make them aware of the policy so it doesn’t become a habit. “Our policy is to reschedule if the customer is 20 minutes late for an appointment. However, we happen to have an opening right now. I just want to let you know about the policy though as that’s not always possible.”

      1. Pocket Mouse*

        Yes, this – “We have to reschedule the appointment per the policy, but it just so happens we have an opening, so I’ll reschedule it to right now.”

        Unless the policy is that they have to reschedule before the existing appointment time? In that case, they no-showed for their 10am appointment and were on time to their 10:45 appointment (that you booked while they were standing in front of you).

    3. Disco Janet*

      I wouldn’t say mean, but it does seem counterproductive on both your end as well as the customer’s.

    4. Malarkey01*

      What is the goal of turning them away? If you have a customer there ready to spend money and you have the capacity to accommodate their appointment, why would you turn them away? Why lose out on the business by making them reschedule (and possibly taking a future spot that could be filled for another customer).

      I agree with PP that you let them know about the policy but that you can make an exception this time. That builds goodwill and ensures they don’t think this is always okay.

    5. Willow*

      Yes, you’re being mean. There’s no good reason to turn customers away when you could serve them. You can let them know about the policy, you can turn them away if you genuinely aren’t able to help them at that time, but what you are doing is just silly. You’re trying to make a point that doesn’t need to be made.

      If I was that customer and you turned me away when I could see you were not busy and could have helped me, but you chose to be obstructive and difficult instead, that would give me a very poor impression of your business. An impression I am likely to turn into negative reviews, poor feedback, and no further business of mine.

    6. WellRed*

      I don’t know about mean but either you are too rigid and stickler-y for RULES! Or you are power tripping.

    7. Don't Be Late*

      As someone with a health care provider background…no, not mean. May or may not be prudent, and it may depend on their explanation and the rest of the schedule . One issue we had is that a patient would come in late, and then every time they or anyone in their family would come, they were always…late. We hated to reinforce that coming in late was OK. (And what is it with people? They just waltz in whenever, without ANY kind of excuse. Or they make appointments and just…don’t show up. DON’T DO THAT, PEOPLE!) And even though it may have looked like we weren’t busy, because we weren’t RIGHT THEN, there was another patient coming in a few minutes and if we saw the late patient, then the whole schedule would be backed up. Or, so maybe we WERE busy, but with non-patient activities, so the office looked empty but it was the time that the doc makes phone calls to patients, etc. and had wandered up to get some info from the front desk.

      1. Dr. Anonymous*

        What I do when patients are late is offer limited service or tell them I’ll see them after the patients who came on time because Inhave to be fair to them. Some elect to wait and some leave. Then I squeeze them in when I can and they’re usually grateful but they haven’t trashed my whole day.

    8. RagingADHD*

      If you truly have an open slot so you could accommodate them without messing up the schedule, I don’t see any reason to make them come back another day. So it would just be pointless.

      If you have a reason, like there’s people coming in soon who would be impacted, or it’s a recurring pattern with this person, or an overall problem in your business, then it makes sense to reschedule.

      Either way, I don’t think “mean” is relevant.

    9. Man behind the desk*

      Thanks for the thoughtful responses, everyone.

      I think I’m struggling with a couple of things. First, I don’t like having to make decisions on a case-by-case basis because it seems potentially unfair or capricious; I feel like each time I make an exception I am setting a precedent that I will have to follow in the future. I want clear rules because I don’t think I’m very good at making gut decisions.

      Second, I have recently veered too far in the other direction — being too accommodating to customers, to the point that it became unfair to my team. So now I’m trying to correct for that, but I might be overcorrecting.

      Third, it just BUGS me how entitled some people are. A couple of weeks ago a customer was very angry that we didn’t want to serve her when she was over half an hour late and we were actually slammed. She said “Nobody told me it would be a problem if I was late!” I ended up giving her a minimal service and rescheduling the rest (our services can be broken up that way) just to get her to shut up. But I came away feeling like I let her take advantage of me.

      1. RagingADHD*

        I do front-desk and scheduling at a free clinic where I volunteer. We have very specific time slots for each type of service, because they use different staff & resources.

        If there’s a slot open, I’m supposed to book that slot if I can, whether it’s in advance or walk-in. But I’m not supposed to create slots.

        Can you ask your team or supervisor to set things up that way? Then there will be no question of being unfair to your team, because they’re already planning to do X number of slots that day.

  82. How big of an issue is Harry Potter for parents of LSBTQ?*

    Hello all, I’m looking for some feedback on this issue, ideally I’d like to hear from parents of LSBTQ youth. My (same level) colleague “Mary” shared with me that her teenage child is not sure if they are a boy or a girl, and goes by ‘they’. I don’t know anything else, I’ve made sure to respect this pronoun when asking her about her children. I have another colleague (Bob) who is lateral but above us in terms of hierarchy, whose children are Harry Potter crazy (and it seems he is too, by how often he references it). Mary is usually very gregarious and good humored, but I’ve noticed her being very quiet when Bob makes Harry Potter jokes. (We are all parents so children often come up in conversation, especially with all of us working from home and schools closed). But Mary doesn’t talk about her children in front of Bob. It dawned on me that this might be because of the controversial comments by Rowling. I have good working relationships with both Mary and Bob, but the two are less close (Bob and I are in the same department, Mary might not want to rock the boat with our department). I’m thinking whether I should gently tell Bob why it might be better to hold off on the Potter jokes around Mary, or if this is too much meddling. I think Bob is just unaware of the issues, I doubt he is making some kind of statement. Is this something that I should just trust Mary to bring up herself if it’s sufficiently important? I really don’t want to get into politics / free speech issues at work, obviously, but I feel for Mary and Bob is sometimes pretty clueless.

    1. How big of an issue is Harry Potter for parents of LGBTQ?*

      I apologize, I noticed I mis-spelled LGBTQ. You can see I just don’t know much about this, but as a parent I just feel for Mary, and want to do what’s right, but also keep things professional.

    2. Disco Janet*

      As someone who grew up loving Harry Potter, it’s been so tough reconciling the parts of the story and community that I cherish with the deeply problematic elements that have become much more apparent in recent years. I don’t think you should tell Bob to specifically hold off on these jokes around Mary, as that is meddling and something Mary might not wish for you to do – she gets to decide if she wants Bob to have this info. You could, next time Bob makes a Harry Potter joke, say something like, “So many people love Harry Potter! Tougher to enjoy the jokes and references though with some of the anti-LGBTQ references the author has made in recent years though.”

      Of course, this runs the risk of Bob saying something in response that would be significantly more offensive than a Harry Potter reference, and you’ve said you don’t want to get into that kind of debate at work – so that makes this tricky!

    3. elle*

      Thank you for noticing and trying so hard to be good to Mary! It’s really great that you have her back. I would talk to Mary first. She might prefer you handle it a certain way.

    4. BRR*

      If you want to saw something about jk Rowling go ahead. But don’t say it on Mary’s behalf.

    5. Dark Macadamia*

      Let Mary bring it up herself if she wants. You don’t even know why she gets quiet – maybe she hasn’t read the books and doesn’t get the jokes, maybe she thinks it’s weird for an adult to reference a children’s series so much, etc.

    6. RagingADHD*

      This has nothing to do with you. For all you know, Mary and/or her child may love HP and she’s quiet because she is processing her own uncertainly about beloved content from a problematic creator.

      It’s nice that you care about Mary, but you are creating a problem just to solve it. Let Mary and Bob form & negotiate their own relationship.

    7. allathian*

      I realize that you want to foster a friendly working environment, but it’s really not your problem if Mary isn’t friendly enough with Bob to talk about her children in front of him. As long as she’s reasonably friendly, or at least not outwardly hostile, towards him when they have to work together, that’s probably all she wants or needs. She’s uncomfortable enough around Bob to go quiet when he shows up, but that may not be a problem for her. It’s not your responsibility to foster closeness between employees.

      That said, if you’re getting tired of the HP jokes on your own behalf, you might say something about it to Bob, if you have that sort of relationship. Whatever you do, don’t tell Bob anything that Mary’s told you in confidence about her child.

  83. Emperor Tomato Ketchup*

    SO! After *literally* months of interviews (each company requiring long and recurring interviews / whiteboard sessions / sometimes take home projects / most ghosting me after all of this) I finally have a potential offer.

    However, the internal recruiter I worked with kept going on and on about how they don’t negotiate and “people take PAY CUTS to work here” and that the company pays way below market because, basically, they can.

    I mentioned this to the hiring manager in a very transparent conversation and she encouraged me to negotiate for what I want to make — that the issue of below market salary is something that affects people organizationally and needs to change. In fact, her openness and kindness in this conversation really cemented the impression I had of wanting to work with her, although I loved the team I met along the way.

    I’m already being paid below market in the job I’ve been working so hard to leave (and it’s a struggle, financially), and it is super deflating to hear this from HR prior to getting an offer that I won’t have the opportunity to negotiate.

    @Alison had an amazing and incredibly timely post this morning about negotiating…….and I’m wondering how to potentially approach a negotiation where the recruiters are coming at it from a very anti-negotiation standpoint?

    1. ferrina*

      Ugh, that’s frustrating! I haven’t been in that exact situation, so I’ve got limited experience to offer on negotiating with the recruiter, but I’ve been in the spot where I was REALLY underpaid (by 20k+) and had to remember that I deserve to make fair market value (or have enough perks to make below FMV worth it)

      I think the first thing is to be strong in your own priorities. What is more important to you? Making X amount (and maybe job hunting a little longer) or getting out of your current job asap? How much compensation are you willing to make to be at this company (i.e., is position super interesting, or you’ll be working in a great location, etc)? How soon would be you be willing to job hunt again if this company underpays you? Know what you need to make to make this position make sense for you. And if that is FMV, then that is fair!

      I’ve found it helps to know what I’m willing to walk away from. I want a company that I can stay at for 5 years, and I need to be able to afford to stay at this company for 5 years. If a company can’t afford me, I’d rather keep looking in my current search rather than have to start searching again in a couple years (note: this assumes that the current company is tolerable, not a flaming headless chicken).

      And if they won’t pay you what you deserve, feel guilt-free in walking away. If the hiring manager is as amazing as you think, she will completely understand (and may even bring this up to her boss as a “see? I can’t even get the candidates I want because we won’t pay fairly”).

      Oh, and regardless of what the internal recruiter says, you WILL have the opportunity to negotiate. You get to say “I need to be making at least X for this position to make sense for me” at any point. If they send you the offer and it’s not what you want, you get to say “I was thinking closer to X”. They may choose to be “insulted” by the negotiation and revoke the offer, but if they choose to drop a good candidate because they refuse to negotiate, that’s likely not a company that treats its employees well. Bullet dodged. (I know it’s hard to think that in the moment- that’s why it’s so important to be confident in how much you need to make at your new job).

      Sorry for the essay. Good luck!

    2. The New Wanderer*

      So, this might not apply to your situation, but I had a pretty open conversation with a hiring manager about salary (my current vs what they expect to be able to offer). In essence, the HM wanted me to know that if the salary offer was lower than my current, that it was not any kind of slight or low-ball, just what they’re usually able to offer. However she was able to provide recommendations to HR and they are going to be able to offer more than expected without me negotiating at all.

      Since your HM is supporting you on negotiation and knows that an overall change is needed, can you request that she pass that information to HR? This would be in the form of “I really want to hire ETK but the usual salary offer is too low for someone with their skills. I’d like to see us make better salary offers in general starting with ETK.”

  84. Disco Janet*

    I started my Master’s Degree program yesterday! I chose a university that offered the program as self-paced because I want to get through it as quickly as possible (because I receive a significant raise once I have earned it). I powered right through my first assessment task. But the second one. Oh my goodness. I know why SMART goals are a thing. I get it. But creating two long-term smart goals, then creating three short-term smart goals for each of those long term goals, then writing an action plan with a timeline for each of the short term goals…..ahhhh, it’s so tedious and redundant!

    Has anyone else done a self-paced Master’s program? And tricks and tips for keeping your motivation level high?

    1. Sanity Lost*

      Post your goals on the fridge! You will see them everyday. It does help.

      My goal was quit the job from hell, and I needed the MBA to do it. It helped that I found the classes engaging.

      One trick is look at your current job as if you were an outside consultant and how would you change things based on what you have learned. If nothing else, it provides a bit of entertainment on a dull day.

    2. Disco Janet*

      (Oh, and context – I’m a teacher on summer vacation, so I currently have way more time than usual to dedicate to the program!)

  85. An anxious mess*

    Hi! I want to tell one of my coworkers-turner-boss (soon) that I know my anxiety is getting worse and I’m going to talk to my pcp about getting on medication. I just don’t know how. This’ll be done over text as there’s no place for us to talk at work.

    I wouldn’t normally be bringing this up, but my coworker works with me often and has seen the anxiety manifest. One of my other coworkers who I also work with the most has made jokes in the past about the specific ways my anxiety has manifested (not trying to be mean, they didn’t know). So if they’ve seen it, others (like my soon to be boss) has too.

    My boss to be and I are friendly but not friends. I’m pretty sure they won’t react negatively or anything like that, I just don’t know how to start the conversation. But I want them to know I realize it’s an issue and I’m attempting to fix it. I also do plan on asking if I can talk to them, I’m not going to just send a text with details.

    1. Me*

      Personally I would leave specifics out of it. Especially with mental health there can be significant stigma.

      I would say that I am dealing with a medical condition and am working with my doctor to resolve it. And that you are telling them in case you have seemed off at work but wanted to assure them you are handling it.

      That’s it unless you need to ask for specific accommodations.

      1. An anxious mess*

        thank you! right now I don’t plan on asking for any accomidations, other than a little more patience than they’d normally give.

    2. Sanity Lost*

      You can be “informatively vague”. Basically, you let your boss know that you are dealing with some medical issues, your Dr is working with you on them, and that there are some times that you will be “off” as you adjust to new medical processes/medications. You are asking for a little leniency while you get them under control and to please let you know if they see an issue so you can bring it to your Dr and work with them on it. Letting them know that 1) there is a problem, 2) you are addressing the problem, and 3) that you need a little grace will be the best thing you can do for you and the company.

      Plus they may have other resources the company has to help you in the meantime.

    3. Disco Janet*

      This might be totally not your style, but I am a self-deprecating joke kind of person. Not to an obnoxious amount, but just acknowledging and normalizing it a bit. I would probably wait until the next time my coworker made a joke about my anxiety and be like, “Stupid anxiety ruining everything! Don’t worry though – seeing a doctor about fixing that.” In like a lighthearted, jokey sort of tone.

      And yes, I have actually said this to a coworker before. Their response was, “Hey, I know what that’s like! Maybe you’ll get some awesome medicine like I have for my ADHD.” So yeah – being open but not super serious about it can help open up conversations that normalize mental health struggles. Not that you are obligated to do that, but you may find it to be a relief to not have it be talked about as if it’s some dark secret. You get to set the tone here, so step one is to decide what kind of tone you want to strike.

  86. Sanity Lost*

    I know quite a few folks here have done long distance job searches while planning to move to different areas. Having read the information Alison has compiled has been a huge help. But one of the questions I am still struggling with is in regards to timelines/area.

    I’m planning to move back to the east coast in about 2 years (give or take). My job is not transferable and I know the general area I want to live in. I do not like long commutes and of course cost of living is a factor as some areas are much cheaper, but not as job specific as I would like, even within the same state. So what comes first, the home location or the work location? How did you decide

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      In my experience, the work location comes first if you can secure that job before you move, especially if you don’t like long commutes. You can’t know how long your commute will be until you know where you work. That said, if you know you’re a fairly in-demand candidate, you could also just move to an area near jobs you might want to work at, and then hope you get a job near where you live.

    2. PollyQ*

      Work first, definitely, unless for some reason there’s a limitation on where you want to live. Otherwise you’ll run the high risk of either having a brutal commute or ruling out jobs that would otherwise be a great fit for you. One option to split the difference is to pick a short-term home location, but just get a month-to-month lease so that you can find a more permanent home once you find a job.

    3. whistle*

      I’ve done both. In the aughts, I moved from city to city and picked up restaurant work no problem, so it was nice to get moved in and then find work.
      After that, I always had a job first and was able then get housing with short commutes.
      If you know you can get work quick and/or have a great support network, nothing wrong with moving first. Otherwise, get the job first.

  87. Helen*

    My church was burned down in an act of arson. My colleagues are either making jokes about it or saying it was deserved. I know there are issues and not everyone is religious, the church isn’t perfect but that church was important to me and my family. It really hurts. My boss is in on the comments so I haven’t said anything. I feel like if it was a different faith (Catholic) than the tone would be different. My grandmother still remembers the last time the church was burned down decades upon decades ago by the KKK. How do I deal with my insensitive colleagues over this?

    1. My Brain Is Exploding*

      You have said it quite well: “I know there are issues and not everyone is religious, the church isn’t perfect but that church was important to me and my family. It really hurts, ” followed by, “Please don’t make jokes or hurtful comments about this.”

      2. PollyQ*

        I would leave out the first part of that script, and skip straight to: “That church was important to me and my famly.” These people are being horrible. I’m a staunch, lifelong atheist, and there are plenty of religions whose viewpoints or actions I disagree with, but I would never in a million years be happy or make jokes because someone’s house of worship was deliberately destroyed.

        This is extra inappropriate in a workplace — IANAL, but it starts to sound like religious discrimination, and your boss should be shutting it down for that reason alone.

        1. My Brain Is Exploding*

          I don’t disagree with you! I was prefacing with softening language, but Helen can adapt to her audience as is fitting.

    2. ferrina*

      Wow, that’s horrible! I’m so sorry to hear about your church!

      And joking about a place that was destroyed by arson? I can think of no circumstances where that would be okay at work, and that is doubled when they know that you were personally affected by it. What they are doing is awful.

      I like My Brain Is Exploding’s script- succinct and to the point. If your colleagues are still making jokes at that point, well, is your HR trustworthy? It’s definitely worth flagging for them.

    3. A Canadian*

      For anyone who isn’t Canadian or up to date on Canadian issues, if you read up on residential schools and truth and reconciliation it will provide a lot of context for this post. I’m not saying arson is the answer but there is understandably lots of anger.

      (I also think the reason the tone would be different as you state is because Catholics have always been the majority and not faced discrimination like other faiths. So that context is different)

      1. PollyQ*

        In the US, it’s not at all true that Catholics have always been the majority, and they have been subject to discrimination historically. Even today, some Protestants churches have a strong anti-Catholic bias.

        1. Racecar*

          +1. Helen mentions the KKK burning down the church. That happened to Catholics a lot back then. Also the Orange Order was prominent. You couldn’t even run for election in certain places if you were Catholic. My grandfather was told he would have been promoted at his job if he wasn’t Catholic. This was in Canada less than 60 years ago.

      2. Chaordic One*

        In the U.S. the Roman Catholic religion has historically had the most members of any single organized religion. However, when the members of the various Protestant religions are combined, they outnumber Roman Catholics. Roman Catholics were often the victims of discrimination based on their religion in the U.S. Some communities even had restrictive covenants that prevented Catholics from buying property or living in them, similar to laws affecting Jews, blacks and other people of color. It seems to me that the most blatant discrimination against Catholics started to diminish significantly after the election of John F. Kennedy, the first Roman Catholic president of the U.S.

        1. allathian*

          Yes, and it’s saying something that Joe Biden is only the second Catholic president in US history.

          Helen, I’m so sorry to hear that your church was burned down in an act of arson. This is not acceptable. It’s not as if current generations of Catholics are responsible for atrocities committed in the past. The anger is understandable, but that doesn’t mean that the wilful destruction of a place of worship is acceptable.

      3. peasblossom*

        Leaping in as a catholic here (albeit a non-canadian one); OP, I’m sorry this happened, and I know it must be painful. I think it’s reasonable to offer a brief comment to cut people off–the one’s about the personal importance above are good suggestions. I would add, too, a statement acknowledging the pain of the discovery in Saskatoon–just a simple statement of fact: “I am deeply saddened about the grave found at Saskatoon.” I’d add this just as an acknowledgment that you understand the context AND are still personally saddened by the loss of your church–which is obviously true but your coworkers seem to be willfully ignoring!

        For others commenting, there’s really important social/historical context here related to the mass deaths of indigenous children. That, of course, does not mean Helen’s loss isn’t sad, but these arsons aren’t existing in a vacuum; they’re a part of a long history of colonial violence that extends beyond Catholics or Canadians.

    4. Anyhow*

      I’m so sorry. That’s a hate crime that people are making jokes about. What is wrong with people? I’m not Catholic, I’m Protestant. However, I did attend Catholic school for Middle School. I loved the nuns. I feel that I got a superior education. I have only fond memories of my time as a student there. I liked attending Mass and learning about the Catholic faith even though it is not my own. I have a very deep respect for The Roman Catholic Church. No faith or church is perfect because they are practiced by imperfect humans. I guess don’t have any good advice because I’m actually speechless that grown, mature, employed adults would react to a church burning the way you have described. It makes me physically ill to contemplate. I suppose I might ask those people who are making jokes how they would feel if something very important to them were destroyed in a hate crime?

      Also, are your colleagues in Middle School?

    5. asteramella*

      Really unimpressed by the comments debating whether Catholics are oppressed, as someone from a Catholic family who is also a member of multiple demographics that have been labeled abominations by the Church.

      That said, your coworkers are being jerks. “That church was important to me and my family” would get any reasonable person to knock off the comments.

  88. Sanity Lost*

    I am so sorry to hear about your church. Maybe remind the ones joking that people worshipped there, and they could use prayers not jeers, even the ones they can’t hear.

  89. Nacho*

    Anybody have any tips for working with a Chinese company? I recently started taking on more responsibility with my company, which is HQed in China (I WFH in the US), and my boss told me I now need a webcam because not having one was making me seem “rude” to the Chinese higherups. Anything else I should know?

    1. Tali*

      I recommend the Culture Map book as a good starting place for working across cultural lines.
      Not sure why specifically a webcam would make a difference, but East Asian business norms are generally more conservative (small c) than the US. Suits and collared shirts, pantyhose and heels, that sort of thing. Hierarchy and social face are important; where and how you say things matters.

      If you can start learning some Chinese it will buy you a lot of goodwill and you’ll start to learn some specific cultural habits that will help!

  90. OyHiOh*

    An observation about organizations that require “demonstration of ability” tests vs qualified people who want to do more than what the test asks for:

    A sibling of mine is applying for a job this week which requires submission of a writing portfolio and completing a writing sample test. The organization seems to understand the purpose of the writing test, and seems to have a clear understanding of what they want to get out of it. Eight hundred words, candidate given a specific topic to write on (that could be a textbook chapter if not for the strict word limit), and an organization style guide to organize the work with.

    My sibling is on day two of this endeavor – not because they struggle with technical writing (they are quite proficient at the skill) but because they want to write the entire textbook chapter and cover all the variations within the topic and are having trouble forcing themselves to write an 800 word technical summary.

    1. ferrina*

      Sometimes that is what the company is trying to find out- who has trouble sticking to the word limit. Do you know what to edit and where? Writing and editing can be two different skills. I had a amazing/terrifying philosophy prof who would start downgrading students if they went over the word limit (which was a harsh reality check for a lot of us)

      If you’re looking for advice- I’d say know the field and the type of writing that they need (versus what you like to write). Is this a position that will need exhaustive technical explanation? Maybe pick a single subtopic and write 800 words on that (use the first 50 words to explain that you’re just focusing on Subtopic). Is this writing for the general public? Definitely keep to the 800 word limit and communicate the most salient points.

    2. WFH with Cat*

      Speaking as one who knows … if a client wants an 800-word summary, you give them an 800-word summary.

      You could perhaps remind your sibling that 1) all they are asking for is a sample, not a complete project, and 2) it sounds like they are looking for people who can follow direction and keep a project within scope, and 3) the job may actually require someone who is able to distill complex technical down into a more manageable size (possibly for a lay audience).

      If this is a technical writing position, and your sibling is have an extremely difficult time with the writing sample, then … sorry … this may not be the right job for them. Be able to write well is one thing. Being able to write well for a client or employer requires an ability to stick to the parameters of the project.

      Best of luck to your sibling!

    3. WellRed*

      In any job you need to not only follow the job requirements but have the skills to do the job. Being able to write 800 words when asked is a skill for the job. As an editor the only thing I hate more than missed deadlines is getting a submission that’s a lot longer than I asked for. maybe your brother could think of it this way: they may need to evaluate several candidates’ writing samples. If everyone submitted a chapter? Ugh.

  91. Laney Boggs*

    I know generally AAM is against tracking your coworkers breaks/vacation.

    However. I’m still waiting for approval on a single vacation day (on a Monday) because one of my coworkers has scheduled off every Monday from May 25 – July 26 (and let’s be honest, probably will snatch up all of August too). We are a coverage based job – we each handle our own accounts and on days off your back up takes care of it. Managers are iffy about a person & a backup being off at the same time. I’m just feeling pretty irritated right now that he gets to take every Monday, and another person gets every Friday.

    1. Laney Boggs*

      I’m younger by a decade and don’t mind taking off odd days in the middle of the week (as most of my friends are odd schedules that work evenings/weekends and i get to see them when I get to see them), but like. I’d like a 3 day weekend now and then too, thanks

      1. Soup of the Day*

        You can’t really blame your coworkers for the way they’re using their paid vacation days, especially if they’re using the current system to do so, but I can understand why you’re irritated – I would be, too! Can you request a few Mondays or Fridays off before they do next time? If not, I think this is worth bringing up to your manager! Don’t frame it as “X always gets Mondays off and I’m bitter,” but more like “I’ve noticed that the current time off schedule makes it difficult for me to take Mondays or Fridays off. I will need to take a few Mondays or Fridays off before the end of the year. How can we make sure I’m able to do that?” You can make up a trip or something like that, but your manager might not even pay attention to how the current system is affecting you.

        1. Teapot supervisor*

          +1 Your problem lies with your manager and the system, not your co-worker, as irritating as this tactic is. I also think it’s right to assuming stupidity on behalf of your manager – it’s probably not dawned on them the reason you taking zero Mondays as holidays is because Fergus books them off before you can a look in, rather than because they’re got some sort of evil scheme to making employees battle it out for holiday. Soup of the Day’s framing of it is excellent.

          1. Teapot supervisor*

            Or rather ‘assume ignorance on behalf of your manager’! Just realised I’d been very unintentionally cruel there!!

        2. mediamaven*

          I disagree with this. If it’s a coverage based system it’s pretty garbage for one person to take all the good days. Talk about a lack of professional courtesy. I think it’s fair to reach out to the manager and request some guardrails. I would be irritated too. I also worked in a coverage based business eons ago and we worked together on scheduling. I didn’t care about Superbowl so I would always work that, and my boss would take, say, New Year’s eve. Everyone felt good.

          1. Teapot supervisor*

            I mean, yes, the co-worker is being inconsiderate but the problem is STILL the system/boss which keeps letting him do this. I used to work with somebody who would take holiday at really short notice (like, Friday afternoon for the following week out). She did this once when our team was already short staffed because other people were on holiday and, because it was so short notice, we couldn’t get temp coverage. It was a very stressful week for the people who weren’t off! She then came in the Monday after her holiday, announced to the visibly stressed team that she hadn’t actually managed to do what she wanted to while off, and took the rest of the week off.

            I was, of course, not best pleased with her but the person I was really mad at was our boss who had signed off the holiday, knowing the team was already short staffed. If I’d approached my colleague about it and told her she shouldn’t be taking holiday off at such short notice, she probably would have (very rightly!) said our boss had signed it off and told me where I could stick my complaint! (I can’t remember if I did ever raise it with boss as the job already had a number of red flags about it, to the extent that this was more just a minor annoyance than one of the top things on list I wanted boss to deal with!)

    2. anonassistant*

      In general, when I know someone else has a standing day off, I just work it into my plans and schedule my PTO for other days.

  92. Cassandra*

    I’ve seen some discussion (on here and elsewhere) about candidates who ask “Can I have this job?” at the end of an interview—and why that’s a very bad idea. As a hiring manager, I’m not sure exactly what I would say if a candidate asked me that! Does anyone have any recommendations for what to say in response to that? And if a candidate asks that, should that immediately disqualify them from the job, or is it just something to keep in mind along with everything else (positive and negative) that you know about the candidate?

    1. irene adler*

      Is “Can I have this job?” the actual question being asked? Or is it a form of “Do you see any issues or impediments to moving me forward to the next step in the hiring process? If so, what are they? I’d like the chance to address any issues you may have.”

      “Can I have this job?” seems pushy and displays a lack of understanding of how to conduct a professional interview. But if the candidate is trying to procure a chance to ‘make their case’ for moving them along in the hiring process, what’s wrong with that?

      If “Can I have this job?” is actually asked, I would explain that there is a process for hiring anyone for any job at [Company]. That process includes a careful evaluation of the candidates by the hiring manager AFTER the interviews are all completed. Then maybe issue a time-frame within which to hear back (be generous with this as it always takes more time that expected to evaluate candidates).

      If the candidate is trying to address any issues the interviewer may have, well, you can use similar language to the above. Maybe state that, at this time, there’s nothing that needs clarification at your end.

    2. BRR*

      I’d probably respond in person with something like well be reviewing candidates and will let you know.

      Should it disqualify them? I’d probably take it into consideration. I’d like to think an otherwise good candidate wouldn’t ask this. Some of the worst gimmicks tend to not be done by strong candidates.

  93. Anon for This*

    I’m kind of polling friends outside of my field on this and would be curious to see what y’all have to say as well.
    Does your employer pay for your membership in professional associations? By this I mean individual memberships for employees, not institutional membership.
    Mine does not, though they do pay for conference attendance, and will pay the higher non-member rate for staff who are not members (they also reap the benefit of the member rate for staff who are paying for their own membership). There are other professional benefits to membership besides conferences and I feel like this is professional development that should be funded by the organization.

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My department has a corporate level membership with both of our credentialing organizations, and each person in a role where a credential is required will be added to one of the two memberships. (Some folks – including me – have memberships to and credentials from both, and we have to pick which one we want to be added to at the corporate level and then pay for the second one ourselves.) In addition, we have a webinar subscription to one of them that gives us access to the required continuing education we need to maintain our credentials, and the second org accepts the webinars from the first as CE credits as well, so that applies to everybody either way. We don’t cover conferences though, except that everybody gets x number of paid educational hours per year so if I decide to go to a conference on my own dime, I can still get paid for (I think it’s 2 days worth of the time) before I have to use my own PTO.

    3. Fran Fine*

      Does your employer pay for your membership in professional associations?

      Yes, mine does.

  94. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

    Today I took a short day, and I’m going to be on vacation all next week. Thirty minutes before the end of my day, the hiring manager for a promotion I’ve been trying (and totally failing) to not think about since I first expressed interest in MARCH (the incumbent retired at the end of May) plunked a 1:1 on my calendar for fifteen minutes later. Good: Short notice means way less time to fret. But come on, I was totally fretting. This is either the AWESOME YOU GOT IT call or the letdown call, AND I DON’T KNOW WHICH. (There were two of us in the running for the position and we both specifically requested that the letdown call happen, if it was applicable. We’re peers, the hiring manager is our grandboss, and we’ve been talking about the process all along, this was not a contentious process. We traded cookie recipes earlier this week.)

    IT WAS THE AWESOME YOU GOT IT CALL. What a way to go off on vacation.

    6. Camelid coordinator*

      Hooray!! That is so exciting. I’ve been wondering but didn’t want to ask in case you didn’t get it or didn’t have news. Congratulations!!

  95. Sunshine*

    Hello everyone.
    I am leaving a job I’ve been in for sometime. I’m moving into a great job but my impetus for leaving is significant and prolonged struggle with a peer who believes they should supervise me and my programs. Upper management has been well aware and called out this behavior before I realized it was happening. (I was happy to be collaborating but it became more and more clear that they were strategizing) managements addressing of this behavior sometimes resulted in yelling at them but never any formal reprimands. I’m exhausted from trying to lead in this energy and I’m sad to leave a role partly out of giving up the fight.
    Here is my question. Do I lay this out in my exit eval? My upper management has recommended it. But I feel it mostly just helps upper management build a case. And honestly anything I say would come back to upper management not disciplining the boundary violations.

    1. Exiting*

      First, you are not giving up the fight, you are seeking alternatives to allowing the behavior from zapping your energy. Don’t keep doing something due to the sunken fallacy.

      Have you seen your company’s exit evaluation? I’ve generally gotten one as soon as I gave notice. I can’t remember a lot of them, as I enjoyed the job but was leaving due to school or spouse’s relocation.

      I’m leaving a long-time job because of bullying behavior from my manager and the form states that they will see my comments. That makes sense for functioning environments, but it is a problem when the situation is not. I’m in a niche industry and staying in the area. I wish I felt that the comments would make a difference instead of cause retaliation against either me or my coworkers. I don’t trust that upper management would build a case; there have been complaints over the years and the CEO has told others that they want to do something about the bullying manager but no one has spoken up to the CEO. If they really wanted to do something they would have dug deeper instead of taking the bully at their word.

      I know not really commenting seems defeating, though you are making them deal with the consequences with you leaving. It may not be much, but it might be the best option depending on what management has done in the past.

    2. ferrina*

      It is absolutely up to you. You owe the company nothing from an exit interview- it’s all a courtesy on your part.

      You do not need to open a can of worms in your exit interview. If you feel exhausted/terrified/just “no.” by the thought of talking about the struggle with a peer, then you can just….not. You can say “I’m not really sure what feedback I can give.” or something else that dodges the issue. And it really depends on the company- some companies take exit interview feedback seriously, and some will just use the points that propel their own agenda.

      I’m a little confused why Upper Management (UM) wants you to put this in the exit interview. If I’m reading this right, Peer was treating you badly, UM sort of but not completely addressed Peer’s behavior, and you eventually got sick of it all and left. I don’t understand why it helps UM for you to point that out- it really makes UM look ineffectual. TMaaaaaybe UM had been pushing for formal discipline for Peer, but was stalled by politics? In that case, it might help to get exit interview feedback, but that doesn’t mean that you’re obligated to provide it. And there is the chance that it’s just going to cause drama for you.

  96. JiminyCricket*

    I know it’s difficult to job-hunt out of state, especially if the situation is you’d be moving FOR the job. However, long story short, I’m a young-ish professional who still lives where my parents settled but doesn’t want to be here permanently so now seems like a good time to move rather than take a job here and tie myself down for at least several more years. Does anyone have advice that has worked for that situation? (Unfortunately, I don’t have specifically in-high-demand niche skills where it would be extremely easy to secure a position.)

    1. Warrant Officer Georgiana Breakspear-Goldfinch*

      I’ve always mentioned in my cover letter that I would be happy to move to $Location, and if I have ties to the location (family in the area, or having spent time time there and liked it), or a particular interest in a known feature (like if applying to a job in Denver, I’d mention I’m an avid hiker), I’ll include that as well.

      1. JiminyCricket*

        Thanks! I was thinking of doing that already, so good to know my instincts are in the right place!

  97. Hi from a Midwest small town!*

    I have an upcoming interview with a local city for a city administrator job that will include managing city departments including public works and other facilities. I have been invited to an in-person interview in which I will tour municipal properties and meet city personnel. I will have a more formal interview later in the week.

    For the tour, I have been instructed to dress casually in jeans or shorts and wear shoes that can get muddy. This is throwing me for a loop. As a woman in my field, I am very careful to dress professionally and conservatively. I was thinking of dressing in business casual that would work for a golf outing – polo, longer drifit shorts/skort and athletic shoes. Does this sound like I am on the rig track? The thought of meeting department heads who are potential direct reports, while under dressed and looking a sweaty mess is making me nervous. Thanks for your help.

    1. Cormorannt*

      Interesting. I would say your proposed outfit would work, but might not be quite suited to the task. It sounds like you will be getting down in the weeds (literally) and getting your feet wet (literally). I’d want to have my legs covered to protect against dirt and scrapes (and ticks, but I don’t know if that’s a concern in your area). I’d recommend jeans and hiking or work boots if you have them. Try to change your mindset: you are not underdressed, you are dressed appropriately for the situation. I’m sure your potential direct reports will be dressed similarly and similarly sweaty!

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        Yeah I was thinking the same. Polo shirt + jeans and either hiking boots or a pair of tennis shoes that you don’t care about.

      2. Anono-me*

        I’d go with the jeans and hiking/work boots also; and add a wrinkle free short sleeve button down shirt (Eddie Bauer has some nice ones) and a lightweight weight blazer style jacket. Preferably all in darker colors.

        I have worked lots of dirty jobs, girl and woman (Figured out early that muddy traditionally male jobs paid lots better than babysitting. ). Don’t go looking like you are ‘too important or too girly to get your hands dirty’; it won’t go over well with people working hard in dirty conditions.

        Not wearing the recommend clothes also won’t go over well with the people who told you what you should wear. It says you don’t listen to people that know what they are talking about.

        You may also want to ask questions about how hands on this particular city’s administrator is expected to be and consider how that will work for you.

        If you will be expected to be in dirty conditions semi regularly, you may want to keep a duffel with the above outfit in your car or office .

        Good luck.

        1. ecnaseener*

          +1 to wearing what they recommended so you don’t come off as disrespectful!

    2. Ranon*

      I agree with the other folks- this sounds like a work/ hiking boots, long pants (jeans or heavy khakis if you just can’t bring yourself to wear jeans), polo shirt or button down kind of dress code. Depending on the places you’re touring they may hand you safety vests, hard hats, and other PPE so there may not be a ton of outfit visible.

      I’d dress as practically as possible- folks in the field if they’re good at their jobs value practical, safe work wear over “formal” any day, your risk here is under dressing for practicality, not under dressing for formality

  98. Jester*

    This is a long story so buckle up, but it finally has a conclusion. Here goes:

    I started a new job at the beginning of the year after moving 1000 miles from home. I work in a library system with multiple campuses, but only one other librarian at my campus. The other librarian, “Frank,” is a weird dude. From the beginning, I thought he was odd but a nerd, so we would get along because I’m a nerd too. But then, seven weeks after I started my shiny new job, Frank accused me of abusing him. He cornered me the second he got in on a Monday and started in on how I told him he wasn’t allowed to go to the bathroom, how I’ve been unprofessional, bad at my job, that I yell and swear at him. The higher-ups had moved him to my campus in what he has been told was temporary, and he was ready to go back to his old campus because I was so awful. I think this was a calculated move to make up a reason to get moved back and he as good as admitted that to HR. Why oh why, he didn’t just ask to go back will always be a mystery. If I’ve learned anything from AAM, it’s to be direct.

    Obviously, all of these claims are lies. Though I can’t say I have never said a curse word in front of him, I have never sworn at him. The bathroom thing is a very weird and blown-out-of-proportion version of what actually happened. One of Frank’s quirks is his habit of getting up every hour to leave the library like clockwork. He’s never gone for long during these seemingly scheduled absences, so it’s not totally a problem but it did create a situation where it felt like he was never there when I had a question that I couldn’t answer because I was new (seven weeks, remember?). At one point, he got up and left while I was helping a patron at the desk. Of course, there was a problem where a judgment call was needed and it would have been nice to ask the seasoned employee what the protocol was. So, when Frank returned, I asked if he would mind not leaving the library if there was a patron currently at the desk unless it was an emergency. He says fine, and I thought the situation was closed. Lord, was I wrong.

    Here we are in July, and I’m still dealing with the fallout. We were told to ignore each other at first and then start working together again. He never did that while I bent over backward to try and make this all go away. So there are more episodes including him going on vacation for TWO weeks and not telling me and then it’s time for our performance reviews. Well, what do you know, Frank gets a bad one, and wouldn’t you know it he blames me! So on top of the “pain and suffering” I’ve caused him, I’ve now also caused “lost wages.” Apparently, you can’t get a raise with a bad eval but a) his bad behavior is not my fault and b) we were not getting raising this year anyway.

    Shortly after the eval episode, a position at the campus where our supervisor is based opens up and the call goes out of people interested in the internal transfer. I wrote back and basically said I was very interested in getting away from Frank, but it wasn’t fair for me to change my life because of his bad behavior. The other campus is half an hour away from where I live now and would be at least an hour away from where I’m planning to move. But apparently, they can’t (probably won’t) force transfers. Even those separating us and putting him where he can be directly supervised is a win-win. He said, direct quote, “Absolutely not.” And no one was surprised. Which pretty much proves everything he has been claiming about me is a lie. If I was really being abusive, wouldn’t he jump at the chance to get away from me like I’m doing with him? He doesn’t actually want to do any work, so being paired with the supervisor wasn’t going to work for him. Jerk.

    So, long story long, I took the position and, I start next week at the new campus. Frank was covering for someone on vacation, so I haven’t seen him all week, and now I won’t have to work directly with him again. It’s one of those situations where the pros and cons are pretty balanced, but overall, I’m relieved. I feel a little like I’m abandoning my post, but I had to do it. Even as an avoid AAM reader, I’ve never heard of anything like this. It’s been so weird and upsetting! But I’m finally in the light at the end of the tunnel! I’m so excited to be working with normal people! There isn’t a question; I just wanted to share this ridiculous story.

    2. J.B.*

      Boo on the system for not addressing the problem! I’m glad you are getting away, but this is a them problem.

  99. Beezy24*

    I’m looking to start job searching soon for a remote position, and I’m hoping ya’ll know of some resources that I can utilize for
    1) Career transitions/coaching (pursuing remote work with undoubtedly mean I need to change fields)
    2) Remote jobs (FlexJobs, using “remote” in the location for large aggregators….what else?)

  100. i will do it anon*

    Any advice about dealing with the “but where are you REALLY from?” question in a professional way?

    For context: Indian-American woman, born and raised in the US. I just finished my PhD and I’m starting a postdoc in September. The last time I was meeting new people in a (semi-)professional context was two or three years ago now, in California, and I got lucky in that no one pushed after I said I’m from MA . In social context I’ve had some success by saying jokingly “I’m a born and bred Masshole” and talking about cultural differences between MA and CA.

    1. PollyQ*

      I’m glad you haven’t gotten that question too often, because it really is some racist bullshit. I think if you’ve told someone that you’re from MA once, you’re fine to just repeat that you were born and raised in Massachusetts (with a mildly quizzical look on your face, if you can pull it off), and maybe add that you moved to CA as an adult to try to change the subject.

      I’ll note that I’m white & predominantly Jewish, with an uncommon last name that doesn’t quite specify exactly where in Europe my father’s family is from, and in my 50+ years of life, I’ve only been asked my ethnic background maybe 3 times total, and never in the format of where I’m REALLY from.

    2. Reba*

      I think “why do you ask?” or making someone explain their question are great strategies.

      you: “I’m from Massachusetts!”
      them: “but where are you REALLY from?”
      you: “Oh, Worcester, do you know the area?”
      them: “no I just wondered — ”
      you: “I guess I don’t understand the question.”

      OR answer in a present-tense manner? Rather than where you’re born, say “I live in ___”

      Ugh, sorry people do this!

      1. Flower necklace*

        FWIW, I tried the “why do you ask?” tactic once (in college), and the other person was straightforward with me. “Because you look Asian.” So that didn’t really get the point across.

        I don’t usually get “where are you REALLY from?” but I get a lot of, “Oh, where are your parents from? . . . America? Really? Then where are your grandparents from?” Most of the time, I end up just cutting to the chase and saying that I’m Japanese-American, more to save time than anything else.

        1. Alexis Rosay*

          Ahhh, so frustrating.

          I’ve stopped asking anyone “Where are you from?” (even though I do not mean, “what race are you”) because people who’ve been asked this too often get understandably defensive. Now I ask “Where did you grow up?”

    3. Policy Wonk*

      I’m in DC where it seems everyone is from somewhere else. It’s the standard conversation starter. And if people name the suburb where they live, the next question is often where are you really from or originally from. Yes, some people mean it in a xenophobic way, but some are just making conversation. So say MA. And if they push, push right back. I told you MA. Make them own their xenophobia. Here’s hoping that you don’t have go deal with that

    5. allathian*

      Ouch, I’m so sorry. As a white person who looks like the majority of people in my area, I can only try to imagine how exhausting it is to be asked that question over and over and over again.

      That said, why not answer “I’m nth generation Indian-American, born and bred in…?” I guess it’s white privilege for me to be even able to wonder about this question. Do you (general you) as members of a visible minority find it inherently offensive if someone is curious about your ethnic background, or is it only problematic because you get that question all the time? If it’s the latter, coming up with a short answer you can live with that shuts down the conversation could perhaps help. Maybe.

      1. i will do it anon*

        Lol, n is a bit too low for that answer to really make sense to use, but thanks for the suggestion!

        I know that my parents, for example, don’t mind the question as much as I do. I do find it pretty annoying when people get curious about my ethnic background, but generally I tolerate it if it’s someone who I would have eventually told about it anyway. When it’s an Uber driver or anyone else I’m never going to talk to again, the question honestly becomes infuriating. (Probably that’s the Masshole in me – where I’m from, we don’t make small talk with strangers on public transit or anywhere else for that matter!!!!)

    6. i will do it anon*

      Thanks, got some great suggestions! Hoping that it doesn’t become an issue but now I have some scripts :)

  101. TV*

    When a job listing has no salary, at what point do you ask about the range? My buddy interviewed with an organization earlier this year but didn’t get the job. The hiring manager approached him and told him to apply for a similar position, one that doesn’t list a salary.

    1. anonassistant*

      I don’t apply for jobs without knowing the salary range, so I would ask for it before submitting the app. If not then, I think it’s fine to ask during the 1st interview.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      It’s okay to ask in the first interview, as long as it’s not the first or only thing you ask about. In some states, the employer is required to provide you with a range if you ask for one. That said, sometimes the first person interviewing you doesn’t even know what the range is (i.e., they aren’t the hiring manager or someone higher up who would know).

    3. Maythe4thofJulybewithyou*

      I’ve started asking during the phone interview and a majority of the time they have given me the range. I applied for one job and the first response from the company was letting me know the range and if I would still be interested. Of course I wait until they ask if I have any questions if they hadn’t already shared the range in the phone interview.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      When I was job-searching last year, I was pleasantly surprised that the internal recruiters I was working with brought it up during the initial phone screen. I would ask then, while you’re learning about the basics of the job and the company.

  102. Bella*

    Does anyone have a good story about career “downshifting”? I am leaving my corporate career to move to something with less money, fewer hours, and hopefully for work/life balance and job satisfaction. It makes me so nervous though.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve done this several times, and I’ve never regretted it. Each time was a position with lower pay and less prestige, but I was a lot happier. Also didn’t manage to hurt my career long term.

      1. Unkempt Flatware*

        As have I! I actually find it quite romantic in many ways. I mostly find that my ratio of spending to earning remains the same no matter how much I make or don’t make. I hate that I don’t save more when I’m earning more but I appreciate that I can cut back when I choose-to-have-to, if that makes sense. And now, with ebooks from the library, at-home fitness classes on YT, and other free tech that makes life easier, it would be a little more comfortable to do this now than the last time I did it, which was in the early 10s (not that life was very hard back then or anything but you know).

        1. Bella*

          Thanks Friends!!! I have a lot of support but getting off the career-climbing ladder just seems so hard.

      2. Unkempt Flatware*

        To actually answer your question, Bella, I quit as a public educator (not much pay to begin with) and moved to a resort community ($$$) and became a dishwasher in order to pursue a lifelong dream of working as a chef. I lived in a teeny little A-Frame cabin with my cat, cross country skied to my day job as a maid at a bed and breakfast, and then hitchhiked up the mountain to my night job as a dishwasher. I did eventually work my way up to chef-hood. Aaaannnd it took years for me to ever want to cook for myself again!

        I went to the library once a week and rented my limit of books and DVDs and waited patiently for my Netflix DVDs to come in the mail. I updated my Netflix queue using wifi from my bed and breakfast job (I lived in a place without 3G back then so no smart phone). I hiked everyday with my cat and we’d go for miles alone and in silence. I healed from childhood trauma. My soul healed. I learned good habits. I was celibate for three whole years during this time. I was bonkers horny after that.

        Life was hard and it was great. I loved every second. I eventually began grad school on top of all of that and have since moved on to C-Suite management in a government agency where I manage a program that funds a few human services in my state.

    2. retired*

      I retired from high stress jobs fairly early; I had arranged part time consulting work that gave me income (actually it turns out good income) and more flexibility. This keeps my brain alive. I hiked to amazing places and saw and heard things that were amazing too (face to face with an Olympic elk with one of those huge racks of horns that come with no hunting in the Park). I healed too. I lived in a rural area with silence. A friend said, “People hike for 100 reasons; you hike for recovery”. I have unexpected physical limitations now and have absolutely no regrets that I have less money and those experiences. I have taken up yoga and had a week of introductory Tai Chi Chih. Both of these teach us to get out of our minds and the Western need to succeed and control and to move to more relaxed and accepting ways of living. The movements make you healthier too. I would recommend finding a teacher who teaches not only the movements, but the philosophy/spirituality behind them. They are both roads to get to the same place, in my experience. Note: you can also define what they do in western terms: neuroplasticity, etc. Do it. You will thank yourself,

    3. retired*

      wanted to add a Taoist story I just learned. Two men are on a journey to a city. They cone to a river that is flooding and the bridge is washed out. One man says he’ll take a rope and swim the river. When he gets to the other side, he’s pull the second man over. He starts swimming and drowns. The second man thinks “Well, that didn’t work.” He backs into the river and floats. The current takes him down the river and deposits him on a shore far downstream of where he started. He doesn’t know where the city is from there, but sets out again, as that is his goal. This is the best description I have heard of my 60 or so years of working.

  103. Cooper*

    For the past couple days, I’ve been sort of assigned to testing a thing for the CTO of our company, but even when I pinged him over Slack, it seemed like we were both busy. And of course, every time I stand up to do anything, his door is closed or he’s on a call or is otherwise busy. AAAAAH.
    Rant over, gonna go see if I can actually do some work.

    2. PollyQ*

      Is there a reason why you can’t send an email asking what time works for him, or use scheduling software to invite him to a meeting to deal with the issue?

  104. Liesl is my dachshund*

    I realized that I’m not as interested in a position but have a 2nd interview next week. Do I still go to get clarification or cancel it? They don’t know that I have surgery on August 4th (yet).

    I have a 2nd interview next week and the organization sent me 8 questions (of the 12 they ask) which lets me know what exactly they’re looking for in their candidate. But I feel it confirms that I’m not interested in the role. I thought (hoped?) it was more behind-the-scenes with an outward-facing Dev Director, but I’m not getting that with these questions. I probably was in denial that it would be both internal and external given it’s a 2-person team…

    Development Coordinator position that includes: fundraising, donor engagement, event planning, communications (social media, newsletter, website), and managing interns/volunteers. Thankfully no grant writing!
    $39k/yr ($18.75 hr). Work from home.
    – What is your peer-to-peer fundraising experience with Board and community members.
    – Which event of ours excites you? What’s your event planning experience or learning interest?
    – Scenario: If the Dir. of Dev is busy and you’re asked to take a potential donor to coffee, how’d you prepare?
    – What do you think of our website and social media? How would you improve it?
    – How do you approach finding new donors and sponsors? If you haven’t done this, give us your best guess.
    – Your mentorship or supervision experience: How did you approach finding what worked best for them while also prioritizing the mission of the organization?

    To note: this is the position I asked about a few weeks ago re: red flags: 70% loss of funding from gov’t grants; 1/3 of staff being laid-off; directors being furloughed on some schedule for the upcoming fiscal year. The position is a combination of two currently funded positions; due to downsizing they’re laying off two employees and making this position.

    Thanks

    1. PollyQ*

      If you’re not interested in the actual work, and the organization is imploding, then withdrawing seems like a no-brainer to me. I guess there’s nothing terrible about having the 2nd interview with the goal of truly clarifying what the balance of the work would be, though.

      (Side question: is that pay typical for this kind of role? Seems awfully low, although I’m not at all familiar with salary range for that kind of job & I live in a high COL area, so that could just be my ignorance showing.)

      1. Alexis Rosay*

        As we were just hiring for a Development Manager I was looking around at salaries, and this strikes me as quite low for the range of skills they are asking for (I am in a high COL area). I think your assumption that this would be more administrative, back-end work makes sense given the salary–this in more in line with development positions I saw that were more like office assistants to the development staff. But it sounds like they are asking you to be a fundraiser, and the pay is way too low for that.

        Unless you need a job badly, this seems…not great.

        1. Liesl is my dachshund*

          Thankfully I can turn it down. I appreciate your insight with relevant development experience. I expected the communications and event planning, to a certain extent, but I’m not interested in face to face donor engagement and definitely not interested in overseeing interns or volunteers.

      2. Liesl is my dachshund*

        Thank you. These roles are funded based on nonprofit budgets which I’m sure you can imagine vary widely. For context, in 2010 I lived in a small Tennessee City and I was tired as the executive director of a Habitat for Humanity affiliate and I was the only administrator responsible for all the programs and services, three staff and 60 volunteers. My pay was $40k/year. But at another Habitat affiliate, north of Austin, I was the Development Director, the only development staff; I did fundraising, grants, donor engagement, events, communications for $50k/year. This was my highest paying job of my career because I move a lot across the country so market rates vary.

        Typical is development teams include fundraising, donor engagement, grant writing, communications, and event planning. When there’s not enough people the tasks are rolled into the one or two people in the department.

    2. BRR*

      I work in development and unless you’re desperate for a job I’d withdraw. They’re asking WAY too much and you’re going to burn out fast.

      1. Liesl is my dachshund*

        Yeah. Good thing I’m not using this as a career progression position. I’ve done all this before; I’ve been in for 20 years. I’m looking for something in fundraising in which I can use my data, research and grant prospecting experience to help further fundraising.

        I feel like it’s one of those positions where they tell you it’s going to be this and then it just keeps creeping along with a whole bunch of extras particularly when they find out you’re fully capable to do it and more.

  105. Gelie Fish*

    Found out a week ago that my position will be eliminated in next year’s budget. What are people’s thought on “reason for leaving.” Is there an advantage, disadvantage, or neither to stating position being eliminated versus looking for a new challenge in my area of experience.

    1. BRR*

      I think there’s no harm in staying your position was eliminated. Especially if your manager is a reference and it has nothing to do with performance.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep, just say the truth.

        If you say “looking for a new challenge” the interviewer might think, “Oh and how long will you stay with us!” By sticking with the truth you can answer any further questions comfortably and thoroughly.

        If you really were looking for a new challenge and that was the truth you would know how to answer the question about longevity with ease. Because you were saying the truth to begin with.

    2. ecnaseener*

      If asked in the written application, position eliminated.
      In the interview, the position was eliminated AND you’re excited to get the chance to move into this new role you’re applying for because bla bla bla.

  106. NeedZaBreak*

    Has anyone managed to take a long break and return back to work without issues? I am in need of a long term break, maybe a year, but at least six months, for my mental health. I plan to move back to my parents and survive with some savings but of course I intend to go back to work since that won’t be enough. But I’m afraid of the potential risks and consequences for taking such a long break. Would this be a bad idea? What do you say at interviews when questioned?

    1. Reba*

      My opinion is that this isn’t really that weird, and that when you come to interviews/cover letters, you just need a quick way of explaining it that isn’t a downer.

      “I had to take 6 months off to cope with stress” — maybe true, but no
      “deal with a resolved health issue” — ok
      “I was fortunate to be able to take some time away to -spend time with family during an important time -move somewhere I wanted to go -build a yurt -learn _____* -think about my next step”

      *I’m thinking of like, gardening, not that you need to get a certificate in C++

      Good luck and I hope it is restorative!

    2. Asymmetrical Warfare*

      I left my job in October of 2019. I was going to take 3 months off through the holidays and restart my job search in January 2020. But from my situation that did not go well and I gave up looking for a job in April 2020 but throughout 2020 I did pro bono volunteering. I treated it as a job (660 hours which is a quarter time job); it was really fun and enjoyed it. I’m still doing it now that we moved at the end of November to a new city state and it’s been challenging getting into the job market.

      But perhaps consider doing some volunteering that you like. Maybe in the area of your skills and expertise so you can put on your resume when you come back.

    3. Weegie*

      ‘I took a planned sabbatical to travel, visit family, and do some volunteering.’
      You *might* get one follow-up question from an interviewer, but mostly a similar answer will satisfy them and they’ll just get on with the interview. It’s the ‘planned sabbatical’ bit that does the trick.

  107. Selphie Trabia*

    After many months, I have finally convinced my coworkers that I am a sentient grey rabbit. Today, I did a Teams presentation with the camera on my pet rabbit Achilles and nobody even batted an eye.

  108. Vesuvius, Who Ironically Worked On A Dangerous Non-Volcanic Hell Site*

    For various reasons I haven’t been on AAM very long (mostly, Toxic Hell Job). I am debating sending in a question/answer letter, but regardless, I’m not sure whether my situation is relevant because I’m out of the bad situation. Before anyone asks, I am already talking to a lawyer, because I was discriminated against for 1) gender and 2) disability reasons for a solid 1.5 years and I finally quit my Toxic Hell Job on May 21 (2 weeks notice period started). My last day was June 4, 2021.

    In December of 2019 I was hired at a medium-sized consulting firm in my field. In January, I was the only person other than Mr. Rabidly Racist And Sexist Jerk who was trained to do a specific job. I was too new and nervous to realize how bad the guy was until after I was stuck being his trainee for awhile. I hated working under him; and, to make a long story short, his bad behavior got him fired. I took over his office work, at first, and then we had the pandemic hit. The company scrambled to find work, but all was well until about May, when sites began reopening and I was assigned office work for the Hell Site again. The project manager goes ballistic at the single, slightest mistake. I am treated like trash. This goes on for three months, I ask if it is normal, and I am told I should be GRATEFUL I HAVE A JOB when I dared question this behavior. New coworker is hired around the same time, she is awesome, and pretty quickly cops to the fact that management is out of their minds and has no idea how boots-on-the-ground work actually works. Nobody budgets enough time and everyone abuses the people beneath them (yikes). Meanwhile, their health and safety regs start being guidelines rather than rules anyone follows, and my partner begins seriously worrying about my health. It’s around this time we adopted our two cats, who were small kittens (very smol! 5 month old babies :D we got them in early September), for mental health reasons.

    Shortly thereafter, I begin learning of all the ways management is basically breaking all sorts of laws…and the Hell Site decides to go ballistic. Pipes bursting, water bubbling up out of the ground, the client screaming abuse over the phone — oh boy on top of all that, explosions! And this like 2 months after there is nearly a fire that sets the site On Fire Forever. Partner starts very seriously trying to help me quit. (We came up with a game plan in November of 2020.) I also began having to fight her constantly on “look, this literally cannot be done. I can’t be in two places, pick a task to prioritize,” and this got my job threatened constantly.
    Then Bad Manager started ordering me to violate basic safety rules. Like giving us the bad meter and expecting us to use it. Or forcing us to violate COVID restrictions on shared equipment use. For a solid six more months, I put up with increasingly odd behavior including demanding to know why I didn’t answer the phone from the toilet when she called and having her blame me for directions she gave me (and then get VERY upset when I disagreed with her and embarrassed her for bringing it up because she made the mistake). Then, she goes utterly nuts when someone who had COVID is needed for the job site (not me) and can’t wear the safety equipment. She says “pretend you don’t need it because the client is visiting.” After a few weeks of dangerous vapor levels in the air! Coworker contacted me after like “WTF is she always like this? How do you deal with her daily?” (Spoiler: Yes, she is.)
    Also, during my time working for her, multiple people went to the ER over chemical exposure (skin contact burns) due to the manager’s behavior and because I couldn’t be on top of them 24/7 to tell them “you need to wear x safety equipment for handling Y compounds.” Or, my favorite: “You cannot just hold that contaminated thing with bare hands and no respirator! FFS, go put on a respirator and gloves before you get hurt!”

    I finally got fed up and angry enough to go to corporate over management’s behavior because I realized how bad it was. I got a bunch of retaliation and gaslighting that broke at least 5 more laws than they were already and bad manager got a slap on the wrist. All throughout this my boss is constantly going on about forgiving people for having a hard time then turning around and blaming me (boss is not bad manager, but protects the bad manager for $$). So I made sure I had a record of things, they gave me a gaslighting annual review full of s$**, and I turned in my resignation. Then I got a hilarious non-apology and people seemed genuinely shocked I was through with it.

    The Hell Site is in a bunch of regulatory databases. The ground being weird = sometimes gasoline and volatile, explosive chemicals bubble up out of the ground. Sometimes seawater covers part of the site. It is a complete mess and we (the field team) all referred to it as being “a toddler” because the system would continually have meltdowns around 4pm. We were supposed to leave site by 5 and that was inevitably when something would break. The site is in such a bad area that staying past about 6:30pm was dangerous, even if everyone agreed to it (there are local shootings and the crime rate is Very High) and even then the toxic manager thinks we should work longer.They’ve burnt through at least one site manager since then.

    Cherry on top: The site’s cleanup system was installed with a very small budget using the cheapest possible parts, and management kept expecting us to fix the problems. Bad Manager went with the cheap not the safe options every time. Last I heard, Bad Manager is in DEEP S*** with the EPA over the constant issues and her bad directions coming to light. That is An Accomplishment considering they’re less strict than local regulatory agencies who she disrespected constantly in private. And then she turned over legal documents she’d been lying about for months.

    Meanwhile, I’m still struggling to recalibrate from all this. It is not normal to have your job threatened at least once a day and it is not normal to be micromanaged and endure constant abuse and ridicule. Any advice on this outside of getting therapy? I can’t stay unemployed forever (although I do need to recover from intense burnout).

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Read here.
      Serious, not joking.
      Read every day until what you read here starts to overwrite what is on your brain right now.
      It doesn’t get much cheaper that FREE. So no cost out of pocket to you.
      It does however require doing it daily. The more time you put in reading about what normal looks like and reading about others who just walked away from their toxic place, the sooner you will find your own thoughts shifting over. So this will be the hard part- read when it’s easier to nap or munch on junk food or watch tv and zone out. Just keep reading.

      And I have to mention check yourself care- eat good foods regularly, hydrate, get some rest. Yeah, it matters. Stress burns vitamins and minerals out of the body at an incredible clip. We tend to want to “think ourselves better” (hence therapy or other things) and never stop to realize there is a physical component that needs help also- our bodies need help, our bodies need to refuel.

    2. Vesuvius*

      I should clarify, I was rewriting stuff and I had mistyped. Partner is very supportive (he/him pronouns).
      Bad manager is who I was constantly fighting with and I noticed the subject confusion rereading it just now.

  109. There's a snake in my boots*

    Alright… I have been offered a referral for a job by a former colleague that works at this company, and I’m trying to decide if I should run screaming. The role is not on their team directly, but they heard about it from someone and brought it to me. There are some red flags but I’m wondering if I should roll the dice on it anyway.

    It’s ostensibly a project manager role, but it includes a breadth of responsibility that makes it sound like there are several other people missing from the team whose responsibilities are being rolled into the PM’s job. It sounds a lot more like this is a product manager kind of thing at minimum, that is for some reason being compressed down into a lower job title (and presumably lower pay). I got even more suspicious of this when I tried to look up info on project manager roles at this company and found no info on any review or salary sites about them having had project managers before, but that they have historically had product managers whose work sounds very similar.

    Former colleague says the company is hiring like crazy to expand a lot of teams, and they don’t know the detailed inner workings of this other department but they have the impression that yes some people are missing and yes they’re going to have the project manager cover all those responsibilities but that should be temporary as they keep hiring people and also because they promote internally a lot, I could end up as a product manager very quickly from this. I will say this person is definitely not lying to me on purpose, but they may well still be completely wrong. They have indeed been promoted very quickly in this company because they covered responsibilities outside their scope, and by all accounts have been treated very well and really like it there.

    My immediate thought, however, is that this is going to go the way it normally does: They’d have me do the higher level work for a long time, thanking me profusely for it and maybe even saying I should get the promotion, before hiring a product manager from somewhere else to swoop in and undo anything I’d managed to accomplish in the meantime. This has happened to me before! I don’t trust it! Especially because there’s no discernable reason why they’d be hiring for all this as a project manager first instead of something more senior, since that is clearly not how their company is already structured. And yet, the siren song of possible advancement calls to me.

    Would it be nuts to consider this? I know I could apply and investigate more as they talk to me, but I don’t want to do that if I think I’m very unlikely to take it if offered since this person would be referring me.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      I think you need a stronger reason to not apply. The reason of offending/upsetting your referring cohort isn’t that strong a reason in my mind. People recommend people for jobs all the time and it doesn’t work out- that is why everyone goes through the hiring process. It’s normal for people to say, thanks but no thanks. Think of it this way if you did not get offered the job your referring person would not come running after you to apologize. Eh, it just did not work out that’s all.

      I do think that a strong reason would be that you just don’t trust the place. Knowledge is power- try to find out more about what is going on. Find out from different sources not your current source. Then decide what you will do.

    2. Anon mom*

      I think there’s no harm in applying and even getting an offer that you turn down. That’s not a reflection on your colleague who’s referring you, it’s only about whether the job/company and you are the right fit. Think of it as your colleague making this opportunity known to you, but what you do with it is up to you.

      As you point out, if they know they need a product manager, they should be hiring for that role now and adding the project manager role later. They’re purposefully choosing the (cheaper) stopgap solution to have one person do multiple jobs at the lower title/salary. One thing you might consider, if you get an interview, is asking whether this job description is better recategorized as a product manager from the start, given all the responsibilities. You might also consider waiting until the product manager position becomes available, if they expect to hire that role in the near future.

  110. Gloucesterina*

    Is there a AAM page (or other resource) for learning about non-office jobs, or at least non-computer centric jobs?

    Thank you!

    1. Unkempt Flatware*

      No but there are lots of folks here! Keep coming back to Friday threads or ask Alison. I’ve held so many non office non computer jobs.

  111. Noyesnola*

    This is a silly question, but when should you update your LinkedIn to reflect your new job? I would have thought on the start date but I read a couple of articles online that advised to wait. For more context, I’m moving from my country to a new position in the US in an institutional setting that is quite a step up from my previous position. All feedback is appreciated, thank you!

    1. PollyQ*

      Do the articles say why you should wait, because I’m having some trouble imagining what the reason would be. I suppose it’s possible that something will break down in the first couple weeks of employment, and either you or the employer might have an “I’ve made a huge mistake” moment and call things off, and then you’d have to change your profile back. But is there really a negative consequence there? How many people are checking your profile often enough for that to matter? IDK, I think updating on your start date would be fine, and updating a couple weeks later would also be fine. Pretty low stakes all around.

    2. Lizy*

      Well I started my job about a year and a half ago and just realized I maybe haven’t updated LinkedIn yet so…

  112. Failed by Learned Some Things*

    Hi. I am at the end of a one-year internship program and I think I might be at risk of failing. In the internship I have some successful projects and some failed projects. Overall, even with the failures, I did learn a lot . I am wondering if I can put the internship in my resume and highlight what I have learned and what projects I have accomplished, even though I failed the internship?

    Not including it will look like I have a large work gap in my resume. I wanted to highlight the new skills I learn. But those are mostly in the failed internship that I am in.

    Is there a way to focus on my learning experience and the few project accomplishments I had in this failed internship, without emphasizing that I have failed it?

    Without the internship in my resume, my resume will look like it has just simple jobs from a year back.

    1. Sam D.*

      What makes you think you’ve failed this program? Is it set up as a graded thing? How does that work? Internships that I am familiar with are usually not something that you pass or fail, so I’m having difficulty imagining this. Have you had negative feedback from your manager? Internships are by their nature learning opportunities, so I would expect that interns would have some projects that didn’t work out, but that wouldn’t be considered a failure anywhere I know of.

      I would think you can include the internship and add information about what you did achieve and accomplish in this program, as it is what you have been doing for the year. What I’d be more concerned about is what your manager at this internship might say in a reference call, and how you can address that.

  113. KimKimmie*

    I work in the US federal government. My boss is retiring and four of us on his staff, including me, will detail in to his position until the position is flown and hired. I know that three of us will also be applying for his position.

    Today we asked for the detail sequence and instead of answering the question, our boss forwarded an email (an email between him, my boss-boss, and HR) to us four that listed the sequence, yes…but also included attachments of each of our resumes. (We detailees had to supply a resume for to prove we qualified for the higher grade of the detail.)

    This bothered me and I spoke up and pledged to not read their resumes. My boss said something to the effect that we each will have access to his personnel drawer while we’re acting and could get that info anyway. And my millennial coworkers (I’m 48) were not bothered by it, saying that “resumes are already out there” (ie LinkedIn). (Mine is not.)

    Am I being too sensitive, or is this the Big Deal that I think it is? Our boss just shared resumes between future competitors for a job.

    1. It happens*

      It’s not a big deal. There shouldn’t be anything top secret on your resume since you don’t know who might see it after it’s sent out. A Fed employee might have security clearance, but aside from noting the level, nothing it’s applied to is there.
      Maybe since all of your salaries are disclosed you want to find something to keep to yourself? But, honestly, neither you nor your coworkers should have any issue with any of you seeing your resumes- helps you to get to know what you did before you worked together. And might keep you a little honest about achievements while you’ve worked together;)
      May the best Fed win! And enjoy the detail.

    2. WellRed*

      Not sure what all the “sequence” is but assuming your salary is public info I don’t get the resume concern? Who cares where you previously worked? What matters is who’s the best fit for the job.

    3. Luka*

      It’s really not a big deal – you are all colleagues, you’d all have access to this info anyway, and there’s nothing about a resume that should be confidential info. I’m confused why you are so bothered by this. I don’t think you’re being too sensitive exactly, but your thinking sees a bit off to me and it might be worth really thinking about why this bothers you so much, and why you reacted as you did. You seem oddly defensive and uncomfortable with something that isn’t a big deal, and that’s going to make you look difficult. Try to work out where that’s coming from, and figure out how to handle this with more grace and confidence.

      1. KimKimmie*

        Thanks everyone for your responses. I see that I likely overreacted. I’ve been on many hiring panels and was conditioned that resumes were strictly private and need-to-know unless the owner of the resume shared it themselves. In this case, all resumes were passed out (to competitors no less) without anyone’s permission. I’m not hiding anything. I sincerely thought this was a breach in rules. I think HR may agree with me, but I should get over it. A quick poll of my friends is divided and seems to be age-based–the younger ones think it’s not a problem and the older ones think it was a breach in confidentiality. Anyhoo, thanks for the feedback!

  114. ecnaseener*

    Office workers, do you often have people assuming your job must be all pencil-pushing drudgery? How do you respond?

    I just saw a relative I don’t see often, and his choice of conversational opener was “So, what do you want to do?” I asked what he meant and he said he couldn’t remember what I was currently doing for work, but what did I *want* to do?

    I was a little weirded out by the implied “when you grow up,” since I’m older than him and have been working full time for 2 years, but I told him I liked what I was currently doing and started explaining what my job entails. I thought I was doing an ok job explaining, but he responded, “So is that really monotonous?”

    I know it shouldn’t matter what my weird 22-year-old relative thinks of my job, but I guess I don’t like the idea of people thinking I must be unhappy with what I’m doing 40 hours a week. (I know that many many people do boring jobs to pay the bills! I’m quite lucky to have a job I enjoy in my mid-20s.)

    Do I just need to get over myself lol?

    1. Wordybird*

      I like to tell people that admin work is the hardest to do because NO ONE notices it when you’re doing it well (what do you do all day?) but EVERYONE notices it when you’re not! I also like to mention that (almost?) every job needs great administration behind it in order to succeed so while I may not get the glory, I make sure the glory happens. It’s not glamorous but the glitz wouldn’t exist without the work.

      1. ecnaseener*

        I’m actually not an admin/support role, so the points you use wouldn’t really apply. Thank you for sharing though!

    2. allathian*

      No, your weird relative needs to get over himself. What does he want to do?

      It’s also a matter of personality. I like stability and predictability much more than excitement, it’s one reason why I’m still in my current job after nearly 15 years and I could easily see myself retiring from this job in 15-20 years’ time. Change for its own sake has never attracted me at all. I do embrace change when it’s necessary, but never just for a change of pace.

      1. ecnaseener*

        He’s in architecture so I imagine he thinks any non-creative work must be soul-sucking.

        1. Actual Vampire*

          Oh, the poor sweet 22-year-old architect who thinks his job won’t be monotonous and soul-sucking….

          (I’m mostly kidding. I love my job. But architects work in offices too!)

    3. asteramella*

      I’d chalk the comment up to him being 22 and presumably not having a ton of work experience, as well as maybe a bit socially awkward (who responds to someone saying “I like my work” by commenting that the work sounds boring??)

      1. ecnaseener*

        He does have a weird personality and the rudeness was not unusual for him. I guess it just made me wonder if lots of people think similar things and are just too polite to say. (Most of my friends from college are either creatives or engineers of some kind, so I don’t really have a sense of what it looks like from the outside to be working an office job that challenges you and matches your skills!)

        1. fhqwhgads*

          From what you’ve described so far, this sounds very much like a “him” thing and is unlikely to be a “people in general” thing, until/unless proven otherwise.

    4. The Dude Abides*

      I work in state gov’t, so a lot of people in my area assume that I sit on my phone/surf the web all day.

      In my old post, my work was a lot more public-facing especially during the pandemic, as I indirectly helped foster kids get the tech necessary for remote learning. Now, I work on my agency’s portion of the state’s outstanding bills. People assume that the process is just slow because of our budget crisis, but within the past three months I and coworkers have found 5-6 figures of “bills” that vendors claim we owe, but have already paid.

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