open thread – July 23-24, 2021

by Alison Green on July 23, 2021

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. BabyKangaroo*

    I’d like to get hiring managers perspectives: What do you look for when assigning an interview project?

    You wouldn’t ask a landscaping company to mow the side yard for free to evaluate their skill. You would be laughed at if you were to ask a lawyer to draft a contract to determine their writing. What you do ask for are references, look at their education, and gauge their portfolio/cover letter.

    “I want to see how well they would work with me.” Call their references.

    “I want to judge their skill set.” Check out their past work examples.

    “I want to know how they tackle a specific problem relevant to my business needs.” Hire them for contract.

    I am not trying to be combative, however prospective employees are getting pickier and pickier with who they work for (see: “The Great Resignation”) So why are companies souring them with assignments when there are readily available avenues to judge character and accomplishments? One caveat here in entry level work, where there may not be relevant references or solid work examples.

    1. misspiggy*

      A lot of roles don’t require a good skillset related to selling yourself in an interview, but do require certain practical skills. It makes sense to get people to demonstrate those skills wherever possible.

      1. misspiggy*

        … and often those skills need to be demonstrated in relation to the job you’re trying to fill, not previous work. Plus a lot of work examples can’t be shared with interviewers due to workplace confidentiality.

        1. BabyKangaroo*

          Is a contract out of the question? Moonlighting? Does your company pay interviewees for time spent on an assignment?

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            I answered this more below, but moonlighting is often not feasible due to conflict of interest requirements with a current employer, child care responsibilities in the evenings, etc. (You don’t want to set up a process that only people with certain types of lives can participate in.) You don’t need to pay someone for an hour-long work simulation, just like you wouldn’t pay them for an hour-long interview. But multi-hour simulations/projects are unwarranted and unreasonable (unless they’re paid).

            1. BabyKangaroo*

              Thanks Alison, I did see your reply below. I didn’t write this in my initial comment, but I completely agree one hour is incredibly reasonable.

              I’ve seen assignments that would realistically take 8 hours, maybe more. I’ve foolishly dedicated my entire weekend to an interview project (didn’t get that job, and the startup folded months later).

              1. HA2*

                Yeah, an 8-hour project is absolutely excessive, and also filters out people based on available time rather than anything else.

                Sounds like the startup wasn’t very good at hiring. It’s absolutely true that giving projects has lots of pitfalls. (Then again, it feels sometimes like very very few companies are actually *good* at hiring.)

                1. LabTechNoMore*

                  In my experience, the tech assessment projects take the timeframe BabyKangaroo described – a weekend or more. But to add insult to injury, the interviewers say the project should only take a two hours. So then not only are you wasting your entire weekend, but you’re also feeling deflated for “underperforming”. (e.g. the 300 page technical manual I was given for an assessment I was told would only take an hour. And that manual was only for one of the questions, out of 5 I was assigned.)

      2. BabyKangaroo*

        Why doesn’t past work demonstrate skill set? Perhaps I’m too focused on my industry, where a portfolio complete with case studies is a must, even for a preliminary interview.

        1. mreasy*

          Another example – a friend hiring an editor. You can’t use past work as an example of how good they are at editing, because you have no idea how the original work was submitted before they edited it. So they’d do a short timed edit test where everyone started with the same intentionally erroneous doc, and compare results. Different roles make this necessary.

          1. Junior editor*

            Yep, I would consider this as a standard part of an interview as an editor, for exactly this reason. Also, you have no idea how long it’s taken them to turn that sample around – bit of a problem if you’re hiring somebody for a breaking news desk and it’s taking them hours to get articles into a decent condition.

            The (sort of) reverse is true with reporters as well. Samples will only get you so far because you have no idea how much of it is them being a wonderful reporter and how much of it is them having a very patient editor!

        2. londonedit*

          In my industry (book publishing) there are obviously actual books that I’ve worked on, but there’s nothing I do that would lend itself to going in a portfolio. I don’t design things or write things or put together reports or anything like that. I have in the past been asked to bring examples of favourite books that I’ve worked on to an interview and be ready to talk about them, but the main skill people are looking for when hiring editors is good attention to detail/editorial skills, so it’s extremely common to have an editorial test as part of an interview. Depending on the level of the job it could be a short proofread or copy-editing task, or it might involve writing some cover copy, or for a commissioning role it might involve coming up with ideas for books you’d like to publish.

          1. Siege*

            I have been tempted to post the before-and-after of The Book I Edited Seven Times And Had A Nervous Breakdown Over, but doing so would be a different kind of problem, since it would be naming the author (who massively deserves shame but I’m not at the level I can give it to him yet) publicly and calling him out as a bad writer. He IS, but it would raise questions for employers how I would treat other bad writers, or even unpolished writers, and about my professionalism generally. Not everything can be a portfolio piece.

        3. Ask a Manager* Post author

          For one thing, because you don’t know how much input other people might have had into the finished product.

          A colleague of mine always says you wouldn’t expect a football coach to hire a player without seeing them throw the ball. You need to see people in action to know how they really perform (because work samples could be heavily edited, references could be heavily coached or be referencing experience with the person in an environment with very different needs or a different bar, etc.). Asking someone to invest an hour of time demonstrating their skills isn’t unreasonable and can save you a ton of time dealing with a bad hire later. (Asking someone to invest multiple hours without pay is not reasonable, however.) If I had a choice between being only able to interview or see work simulations, I’d pick the latter — it tells you the most important stuff.

          1. Filosofickle*

            What I’m finding is more companies are trying to hew to the hour as a guideline, but the work doesn’t really fit that time. My work is heavy on analysis and strategy, all of which needs understanding of the client context. You can slice out a piece of that — say, synthesizing research — but that’s not going to show a lot.

            Recently I was given an assignment for a communications role at a technology company to edit two blog posts. One highly technical, one not. On the face of it, editing a blog post isn’t that time consuming. But do to it, I had to familiarize myself with their blog content and style (they didn’t provide a guide), do some legwork to understand the technologies being discussed, then edit. They were in rough shape so there was a lot of restructuring to do and they were missing information. The recruiter told me to keep it at an hour, and write down what I’d do if I had more time. Later, the hiring manager told me she had no idea we were being told to do it in an hour, she expected this to take far more than that. I appreciated hearing I wasn’t off base or super slow.

            I get the need for testing, I am just questioning for some jobs how meaningful a one hour assignment can be. When I was hiring a freelance strategist / writer for a tech project, I needed to evaluate a lot deeper so my solution was to pay for their time.

            1. Mimi*

              For an entry-level helpdesk position, an hour can be EXTREMELY meaningful. Most helpdesk techs, even if they have directly relevant experience, can’t necessarily pull out past tickets as a portfolio, but seeing how multiple candidates answer the same basic tickets, deal with obtuse or deliberately confusing tickets, etc, can say a lot about how someone might perform in the actual job. It also gives a sense of the quality of writing someone produces when they have 5-10 minutes to write a paragraph or two, which is more job-realistic than looking at polished finished work.

              1. Filosofickle*

                Yes, I see how it can be super meaningful for many roles. I just have yet to see a true one-hour test for my field that feels more than minimally useful (or isn’t actually a one-hour task). Perhaps they have not tried hard enough to design one.

                The teaching example below feels on target for what I mean. If you truly need to see how an instructor develops and delivers a class, that’s going to take longer than an hour. (Maybe a really short class, like prep and deliver a 10-minute lesson?) How do you evaluate complex skills like curricula development without exploiting candidates unreasonably?

                1. HA2*

                  Yeah, that seems absolutely right.

                  Coming up with a good short test is easy in some fields and for some positions, hard but doable with some work in other fields and positions, and impossible for others.

                2. LabTechNoMore*

                  Yes! And on top of these assessments taking well beyond the timeframe the interviewers claim, no one seems to acknowledge the cumulative impact of having multiple interviews assign multiple tests, all of which take 8+ hours. Tech interviews are intense and always seem to happen in cycles, so I’ll typically have 3-4 assessments on my plate at once.

            2. MissDisplaced*

              I’ve done a lot of testing and projects over the years. I think 1-2 hours is reasonable to ascertain a candidate as a skills test.

              I’m just against companies that expect a big project that could take a full day or two to complete. Early in my career I used to do so, but honestly it often felt like they were trying to get free work.

        4. Oxford Comma*

          I’m in academia so I know it’s weird, but when we hire a librarian whose job will include teaching, just seeing a list of classes and workshops they’ve taught tells me nothing other than that they’ve done it. Having the applicants prep and deliver a class shows us if actually do know what they’re doing and if they’re good at it.

          1. Recruited Recruiter*

            My wife is in public education, and for every position that she’s received an offer for, she has had to “mock teach” a class (where they give her a topic a few days ahead, and she teaches a lesson on it that they watch) or do another sort of skills test, such as grading an example paper, etc.

            1. Humble Schoolmarm*

              My area doesn’t have this requirement, but I think it’s very useful. Most of my colleagues are wonderful teachers, but I can name a few who certainly looked great on paper and in interviews, but really struggle to explain things in a way students understand.

              1. Alexis Rosay*

                Yes. There are so many people who can speak edubabble but can’t teach—and vice versa.

                Or, some people are okay teachers but their style does not align with what we’re looking for.

                Lastly, I hire a lot of non-native speakers. Many of them struggle to describe their teaching style compellingly in English, but can demonstrate a very good lesson.

            2. Cascadia*

              Yup, I work at a private school and every faculty member who is a finalist has to do two “mock classes” with a real classroom of students where they are observed. I believe we ask for two because it allows for nervousness to come out in the first one a bit, and accounts for different groups of kids who may respond differently. Our interview day is jam-packed, but we do manage to get it all in to one day. It’s pretty common in education to be asked to do mock lessons or what not – otherwise how would you know if they are a decent teacher? Especially because references often are colleagues or supervisors who don’t have a ton of context of how someone is in a classroom.

          2. Artemesia*

            This. Teaching, editing and counseling are examples of things you have to see in action to know if they can do what they say they can do. When hiring faculty we always required them to teach a class; it was very useful in making a decision about hiring especially for non-tenure track teachers. (we hired ‘practice faculty’ i.e. full time, full benefit faculty with heavier teaching loads than research oriented tenured faculty).

            In hiring someone in a counseling type profession I would want to observe them at least in a simulated meeting with a client; plenty of people can tell you what they ‘would do’ but be dismal at doing it.

            1. Anonymous healthcare person*

              I am a therapist and I have never seen or heard of being asked to simulate a counseling session as part of an interview process. The standard resume, interview, references is the process. Fwiw.

        5. Cthulhu's Librarian*

          it may demonstrate general skills, or the skills specific to that prior work, but that may not be relevant to the skills I need in the person I am hiring. It also doesn’t allow me to evaluate how able to use those skills you are.

          As an example, if I’m hiring someone to analyze data and work with a database, I want to know that your skills are with my database software, and that you won’t be thrown off by the the specific language and construction of my databases. The report from your previous work experience might have been the product of months worth of work, and my place may be more fast paced, and unable to wait that long on turn arounds – A set of quick exercises will let me see if you have the skills and ready command of them to complete your work quickly, and may let me identify specific pitfalls that I need to train you on, if there were… unique or questionable… choices made during my databases construction.

    2. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      We were hiring for a front end developer who would use a lot of java so we assigned a very short java query to all of our candidates. It is very easy to google up code, so we were testing that the candidate actually knew the basics of java well enough to code it on the spot. This was a five minute exercise.

      2. Anhaga*

        We do this for our digital accessibility hires–they write us a short, basic webpage with a few required items (image, contact form) to demonstrate that they are comfortable with semantic HTML and have the wherewithal to look through the resources we link to incorporate basic accessibility supports. It has been a really excellent tool for weeding out folks who won’t do well in the job and it should only take about an hour for candidates with the background we ask for.

    3. mreasy*

      I had a designer role requiring a fast pace for certain work. So I set up an hourlong design test – only for our two finalists – and judged the product. If I had relied on their portfolio, I wouldn’t have been able to see what they could do with the limited time that the role will sometimes have for this type of work.

      1. BabyKangaroo*

        One hour for two finalists is completely reasonable. I think this is a great reply!

        1. mreasy*

          I have definitely seen people asking for projects that would take a day or more and I agree that that is outlandish and should not be done.

      2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        Conversely to that: I was hiring for an entry-level design position that was mostly production work and very little creativity (at that level) so portfolios were nice but didn’t tell me how well they knew the software. We had a 10 minute very basic screening test for all interviewees. It was very helpful to screen out those that listed software they really had no knowledge of, and those that thought the basic test was beneath them.

        The real key when having a screening test is that it really is a test, and not a way to get free work from an applicant. Obviously nothing about our test was a real project.

        1. mreasy*

          Good point to add – I specified in the test document that none of the work produced would be used. One candidate said thank you for mentioning that as they’d had the opposite happen in the past.

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Thought processes. This is for assignments during the interview, not take-home stuff. I wouldn’t assign a take-home assignment.

      “We need to connect thing A to thing B, and then some users get feature C (but only in the summer) and others don’t. How would you set that up?”

      What I’m looking to hear is “Well, you could connect A to B using technologies X or Y. Which one I choose depends on which is more important, speed or security. If you do it with X, you need to install yadda yadda and then yadda yadda…. Then for feature C, I’d have a flag on the user table and then do etc.”

    5. Colette*

      Let’s talk about Excel. My version of intermediate Excel skills might not cover the skills needed for the job. So a quick test can determine if you know how to use vlookup or pivot tables, for example.

      Hiring people on contract isn’t a good solution – someone who is already employed probably isn’t going to leave for a month-long contract – and the overhead of having someone come in on contract is pretty high (you need a computer/desk/accounts/payroll/etc.).

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        I agree about contract – I have a strong career and would NEVER leave for a job that wasn’t full time and permanent. Contract work is standard in some industries but unheard of in most.

      2. CanadianCMA*

        YES, YES, YES, excel tests are a MUST. I hire for accounting based jobs (not accountants necessarily) and when I need strong excel skills I have to test for it. What you think is intermediate and what I think is intermediate are often very different.

        I will say this though, the excel test not only needs to be short (30-45 minutes in my opinion) but it also needs to be well thought out. I’ve given both good and bad tests – if everyone does poorly, it’s a bad test and not much help.

        1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

          Thank you, thank you, thank you. I’m so sick of “hire for personality, train for skills.” My last manager made knee-jerk hires because the applicant charmed her in the interviews, then you’d put them at their desk and have to train them on computer and knowledge skills they should have brought with them to qualify for the job.

      3. Sandman*

        My gosh, yes. At my last interview, the interviewer asked, “And you know how to use Excel and stuff like that?” Um… yes? I think? Could we define what that means to you, please?

    6. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I hire for roles that require a high degree of attention to detail and critical thinking skills (especially troubleshooting/problem solving) but there wouldn’t be any sort of physical past work example they could point me to, and I can’t afford to hire them for a contract period and invest my time in them just to find out they don’t actually have this skillset they claimed to have. By the time the “contract period” is over, I may have lost all the other qualified candidates in my pool. An assignment that should take a qualified candidate no more than an hour to complete that showcases their attention to detail and how they’d address roadblocks, helps me weed out candidates who do not have the skills to the degree that the role requires.

      1. Hiring Manager*

        Exactly. I use an assignment in order to see, really tangibly, their process and approach to a particular task that is part of the job. One where a past work example is a finished product, and I’m actually interested in the PROCESS they use to get started and to problem-solve on the way to that product. Because there are a few ways to get to a solution, some are more effective than others, and it’s much more accurate to see it play out than to have them tell me with vague language.

        I keep the task constrained. I am very clear that they shouldn’t put more than an hour or so into it, and it’s not about how far they get, just to see their approach. And I’m clear that it’s from something we already did in the past – so I’m not trying to get free work out of them. Then we talk about it in the interview, and I get much more insight into their problem-solving abilities and tactics when it’s concrete.

        I just went through this process. It’s absolutely one of my most useful tools in figuring out who will be excellent and who will struggle.

    7. Drtheliz*

      I interviewed a year or so back for a scientific journal. They gave me three recent submissions, gave me fifteen minutes to read through and asked me what I made of them. One was a crank who had written a rant on why he was right and Einstein was wrong (and not a scientific paper). It could be rejected by the journal board without going to peer review. One was pretty marginal in terms of who would reject it, it was an undergrad who thought she’d solved the Llama Incompatibility Problem. She hadn’t, but as an editorial board one doesn’t have the authority to say for certain so it had to be sent out. The third had a lot of copy editing work to do but looked like sound science, and was to be passed to peer review.

      The whole thing took less than half an hour, and was as much a look at how I solved problems as a skill check – they wanted me to talk through why I’d come to the conclusions I had. (I also found it quite fun, which I think is relevant – if the core job duties are tedious, this is maybe not the job for you!)

    8. Audiophile*

      I don’t mind interview tests or projects, within reason: a short writing test, editing test, are totally fine. But, I recently withdrew my application after getting an assignment for a writing test and then days later being told there was an additional component they’d forgotten to mention, a recorded video interview. Part of it was the company’s disorganization, but I’m not thrilled with the recent move to video interviews. I don’t mind if I’m going to speaking to an interviewer and they want to record the interview but have no desire to have a one-way “interview.” Maybe my stance would change if it was a company I was itching to work for.

      2. allathian*

        Ugh. I’m a translator and most of us are on the introverted side of the spectrum. Most good candidates for this sort of job who actually have a choice would probably nope right out of interviewing that way. We have trouble enough as it is to attract good candidates for open positions.

    9. New Mom*

      When I’ve done hiring for my department, I need people that are very good with Google Sheets, so I’ve given a vague assignment that asks them to find 10-20 data points and then organize it for me. This has been really helpful for me for sussing out who is at the starting level I need. It also aligns to the turnaround time of our actual work, whereas with a past work example, it would be hard to know how long they worked on it or if they had any help.

    10. I should really pick a name*

      “‘I want to judge their skill set.” Check out their past work examples.”

      I’ve never had work examples that it would be okay to show to other companies.

      1. Recruited Recruiter*

        I’m right there with you. Every work sample I’ve ever had is confidential or company property.

      2. LizB*

        Yeah, I don’t think this is anywhere near universally available. Plenty of jobs don’t create concrete deliverables, and plenty more can’t share past work for confidentiality reasons.

        1. allathian*

          Yup, this. Most of the stuff we produce for the public is proofread by another translator, and much of the stuff that’s for internal use only and isn’t proofread because there’s not enough time to proofread everything can’t be shared.

    11. cubone*

      Anecdotal, but in my experience, interview assignments seemed to always be about assessing a very particular skill that is lacking/weaker on the existing team.

      For example:
      -I had to do a writing assignment for a job a few years ago. I was given multiple fake customer surveys and had to write an email summarizing the feedback to a project committee. When I got the job, I discovered the project lead I worked closely with had terrible writing skills and my boss specifically mentioned my assignment as being what solidified the decision to hire me. A more relevant test based on the % of actual work I did should’ve assessed my verbal, not written communication skills (presentation, etc.)

      -a friend had to read a report and summarize it, in her second language. The job posting/most work was in English, with the second language “preferred”. But no one on the team was a native speaker of the second language, so it mattered more to them that they assessed that language vs. the one she’d primarily be working in.

      -another friend was applying for a small non profit ED role. The assignment was more or less writing a budget for them (yes, it was a red flag, lol). In the interviews, it was very clear that they had a very messy budget/poor accounting practices, and focused way more on this than leadership, advocacy, other typical ED tasks (the tasks that were highlighted way, way more in the posting).

      1. cubone*

        I realize this doesn’t really answer the question of what do hiring managers look for in an assignment – since as a hiring manager, I’ve never asked for them for all the reasons listed by you! But these experiences and a few other examples always make me think this might be at play in quite a few assignment requests.

    12. meyer lemon*

      I’m not a hiring manager, but as a writer and editor, I prefer to have a chance to complete a brief writing or editing exercise. For one thing, the sample often gives me a sense of the kind of work the job will involve. For another, I’m better at writing and editing than I am at interviewing, so it gives me a better shot at doing well in the competition.

      That being said, I think anything that requires more than an hour of the candidate’s time is usually unreasonable and probably a sign that the employer is either disorganized or inconsiderate (or both).

      1. pieces_of_flair*

        Yes, I think it’s important to note that using some kind of skills test in hiring decisions is one way to reduce bias as well as generally improve outcomes. I had to do a brief assignment during the interview for my current position and it is what got me hired. My coworker who was on the hiring committee told me I was the only candidate that got the assignment right. She used this to advocate for me over the candidate another committee member preferred for reasons of “personality fit.” I am fat, shy, and socially awkward and do not necessarily come across well in interviews. The assignment gave me a more objective opportunity to show I was the right candidate. I imagine this would also be the case for minority candidates who might otherwise be judged less competent or passed over for vague reasons such as “culture fit” that are really just subconscious (or maybe conscious) discrimination.

        But yeah, it really has to be brief!

    13. Caboose*

      This makes some sense in programming, where there’s a million and a half arbitrary projects that can demonstrate your abilities. For many fields, though, it doesn’t make a lick of sense.

    14. RagingADHD*

      I’m a ghostwriter, and my current gig requires work on a standardized sample because ghostwriters by definition aren’t given credit for their work in any kind of verifiable way. Some named authors will mention a gw obliquely in the acknowledgements, but not all do.

      And the flip side is that any applicant could copy paste a chapter from any Kindle sample on the internet and claim they ghostwrote it.

    15. Amtelope*

      We hire a lot of people laterally from K-12 teaching, but this isn’t a teaching job. I need a very specific kind of writing sample, which doesn’t have to be perfect, but needs to show the ability to write to the kind of specifications you’ll receive in the job. I can’t hire people who are new to the job on contract — our contract positions are for time-limited projects with tight time frames and rarely allow for training. So we ask for a test assignment, and try to keep it brief.

    16. Observer*

      So why are companies souring them with assignments when there are readily available avenues to judge character and accomplishments?

      Some of your suggested avenues don’t work anywhere near as well as you seem to thing they do.

      Don’t get me wrong – some employers are totally stupid in their approach to this stuff. But short and targeted assignments really can be useful to get important information.

    17. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think you’re assuming the resumes and work examples can actually show the work you need someone to do, and I think think they do. A resume, no matter how well written, won’t show me if you can teach a class, for example. I need to see you in front of humans presenting information. I don’t need to see you for more than 20 minutes, but I need to see it. So, I don’t think it’s an unreasonable request to ask someone who needs to preform work that can’t be assessed from a portfolio/resume to do some of that work for you. It shouldn’t take more than an hour of their time to prep and shouldn’t be unrelated to the job, but otherwise, I’m taking your word that you can use Excel, teach a class, or summarize complex statistical information quickly and effectively.

    18. sara*

      We do a short skills assessment for javascript developers. We put a max time of two hours on it, but I tested it and it took me closer to 40 minutes. Before adding this assessment to our process, we’d have to rely on github or other portfolios, and really only people who have time for side projects really have code that they can share externally. Or people right out of school might have recent school projects. So we realized if we wanted to see some code and wanted to have a more open hiring process, we’d have to do an assessment of some kind (and didn’t want to subject prospective coworkers to a live coding exercise). They’re asked to do this task before a final fit interview, so we’ll have already done a phone screen and a technical interview.

      The questions might seem basic for an intermediate level person, but we also realized that if a developer felt they were above doing a quick assessment, then they’re not the right fit for the team anyways… Plus there’s ways to stand-out or show off more advanced skills in these tasks if they find them too easy.

      1. LabTechNoMore*

        They’re asked to do this task before a final fit interview, so we’ll have already done a phone screen and a technical interview.

        If I’m reading this correctly, you’re saying you give them a 2 hour takehome technical assessment in addition to a technical interview? I see this a lot in tech hiring – having a pre-technical interview assessment – but I don’t understand the through process behind it. Doing both a technical takehome assessment and a technical interview seems unnecessarily difficult (at least from my perspective as an interviewee).

    19. Alexander Graham Yell*

      We do it because we want to assess their analytical skills in multiple contexts – so they’re given an excel test where they have to analyze blinded data and an article to read and summarize. It takes no more than an hour and is a quick screening tool before we move them forward with manager/peer interviews. We don’t drop candidates who aren’t perfect (if we can follow their logic but they missed a step or used an okay formula when a great one is available that’s fine!) but if they skip one part entirely or have no clue what they’re doing we won’t be able to rely on them to hit the ground walking (not running, but also not needing their hand held).

    20. Agnes*

      The flip side is that any time anyone suggests cutting down the stack of resumes using education, degree, years of experience, internships, volunteer experience, etc., there’s a group here that will point out these correlate with privilege and keep out less privileged (which it does, but privilege buys you useful as well as irrelevant things.) Skills tests allow people to be judged directly on what they can do.
      The chance that a job applicant will be able to produce anything the company will find useful enough to steal is low.

      1. Observer*

        iThe flip side is that any time anyone suggests cutting down the stack of resumes using education, degree, years of experience, internships, volunteer experience, etc., there’s a group here that will point out these correlate with privilege and keep out less privileged/i

        The problem is that is screens for privilege and not for the things that privilege CAN buy.

        Say I’m looking for a top notch tech person. I could limit myself to Stanford and MIT graduates. But not only does that exclude all the great technologists who went to less prestigious colleges, it ALSO does not guarantee that I’m going to get great candidates.

        The bottom line is that if a qualification happens to screen for privilege but is ALSO actually an effective way to asses your candidates, that’s not something to reject out of hand. But when the qualification doesn’t actually do much to help you assess a candidate’s fit, why would you do that?

    21. LQ*

      I’ll be not combative back.

      I don’t want to hire someone with zero skills. But I do believe in – and my organization relies extremely heavily on – promotion from within. This means either you already do the work in your current role or you show promise for something. Otherwise no one should ever be promoted or learn anything new right? Either you have the skill and have references. Or you don’t and you shouldn’t get hired. I hate that.

      I don’t think that makes sense. I think giving people small projects to test and see can you pick this thing up? Can you work with less direction than in the other role? How do you do when something unexpected pops up? Are you meticulous or do you make wild jumps? If I give you 5 minutes of training one something, can you repeat the task? If I give you 5 minutes of training can you figure out the next thing? Can you follow a process exactly as it was written? Do you make up your own process to get to the end goal?

      I also think that interviews as the be-all-end all with references and work samples (which….I know with absolutely certainty that there are at least 3 people out there with my work product in their “past work samples”) isn’t as perfect as you make it sound.

      I’d rather a test every time. Not a 10 hour one. But 1 hour if I’m a finalist? Maybe up to 4 for a senior level role…I want to prove it, and I want you to prove it.

    22. EngineerMom*

      Engineer here.

      It’s pretty common in my industry, especially at the entry level, to be expected to do a sort of demo of how you would work through a problem.

      Typically, the interviewer presents a scenario, and the person being interviewed talks through how they would approach solving the problem. Occasionally, it’s an actual test (thought that’s a lot less common, even at entry-level interviews). More often, it’s similar to an oral exam.

      Usually, it’s not about evaluating really specific, nitpicky facts (though the bad interviewers do this sometimes), it’s more about evaluating someone’s problem-solving process, comfort with the material/topic in general, and ability to ask questions, clarify requirements, etc.

      Once you’re beyond entry-level positions, though, this becomes a LOT less common, since you have proof of your abilities in your work history, but if you are transferring between industries or major engineering fields (design to manufacturing work, for example), you might still be asked to talk through scenarios.

    23. Shree*

      We recently hired for a role where a key skill was typing up dictated letters. Hard to assess how well someone does that without a real-time test. Not a long one – I think it took about 15 minutes, and was done along with the interview – but critical.

    24. learnedthehardway*

      For senior level roles, sometimes of the selection processes require intensive projects from finalist candidates. These are usually structured to put the person through a number of performance criteria that provide evidence of everything from ability to analyse complex information, to ability to develop strategies and project plans, ability to apply industry knowledge to a business problem, financial analysis skills, etc. etc. The take home assignment is usually accompanied by a live presentation to the hiring committee, because the roles will require presentations to senior executive teams or boards. These roles also usually require psychometric testing as well. It’s intense.

      It’s a LOT of work, but if the role has the potential to make a significant contribution to the success (or failure) of the business, then it makes sense to require the work assignment.

    25. HA2*

      Feels like one answer is because “it’s really hard to tell whether someone knows what they’re doing”. Sometimes, it seems like the only way to know is to have them do it.

      In the field in which I’m in “Check out their past work examples” doesn’t really work because the actual work products are proprietary and so can’t be shared – so the best I could do in an interview is ask them to describe past work examples, which is not the same thing as seeing them. Or ask them to do work in the interview – but the extra pressure of “do this while the interviewer is watching” is likely to select more for ability to do work under pressure rather than just ability to do work in a normal setting. So “do a short project” is a replacement for “see their past work”.

      It does make much more sense for entry level and near-entry-level positions, where you can give someone a problem that should take an hour or two to solve and see how they do. Once someone’s doing higher level work, it’s much harder to come up with a good example project, since the higher-level work naturally involves NOT dealing with well-posed well-formed problems.

    26. NorthOfTheWall.*

      I’ve had to hire several library technicians to do cataloguing…all the fiddly stuff that goes into the back end of the library catalog that is then transformed into what y’all see when you search. People need to know what they’re doing and have a good eye for detail.

      So we test them. Last time, the test was to assign a rough call number to a couple of books (fiction and nonfiction), write up a basic record for a popular book (I think I chose Harry Potter), and look through another record and mark the mistakes. For someone who is relatively experienced, it can be done well in an hour. I’m not looking for perfection on the test, just seeing if they know how to find mistakes, how to do the basics of the cataloguing and have a basic knowledge of our call number scheme. The finalists each got an hour to do it. None of them were perfect, but the results did give me a good sense of how they’d do in the job,

    27. I want to go outside*

      When I recruited a junior in house lawyer for a private wealth management firm I needed to know that they had a solid grounding in contract and trust law, could think on their feet, could confidently explain their advice to strong characters who were not lawyers.

      I took a real situation that my (promoted) junior lawyer had dealt with, sent the relevant regulatory rule with a promise that general law plus that rule was all they needed to answer.

      I asked two candidates who were level on paper to meet with my junior lawyer and one of the less easy to deal with portfolio managers and advise them.

      One candidate came out streets ahead, and also got a realistic idea of the kind of personality that they would have to deal with.

    28. Stitching Away*

      I wasn’t a hiring manager, but I graded these projects for my team’s prospective hires. We hired for text-based high-touch customer service, essentially. The assignment should take around an hour. The position was one step above entry level.

      What I looked for essentially, was did the person have skills we didn’t have time to teach, and did they have skills that demonstrated that they could learn what we expected to need to teach.

      So what did I look for? Did they have basic google-based research and critical thinking skills. Could they prioritize? Were they skilled at parsing language to figure out what was being asked (and no, there were not trick questions)? And was their response to a hypothetical ticket empathetic, or did it at least show signs of it?

      You may not be trying to be combative, but your assumption that receiving one of these assignments automatically sours everyone, regardless of person or the assignment, says a lot.

  2. Furloughed Ghost*

    I posted a few weeks ago about retrieving my stuff from my office of my old job after a pandemic furlough and if it would be okay to leave cards behind for my coworkers. I got a lot of positive comments here so I did that. Wrote up like 20 cards wishing everyone well, included my phone number and personal email address, and with HRs approval left them on the desks of my coworkers since no one was actually in the office. It’s now been three weeks and I’m kinda surprised I haven’t gotten a single response by phone or email. I know some are still furloughed and haven’t returned but I do know a few who are back in the office and should have seen their cards by now. I can’t deny a little disappointment in the lack of response. I really loved working there and had great relationships with my coworkers, and to see it fizzle out without a peep from anyone is very disheartening. I also left a voicemail for my supervisor, who I knew was still furloughed and was looking for work when I last spoke to him, and never got a response.

    I need a reality check because part of me is tempted to message people on LinkedIn or something like that but really I need to leave it alone, right? Just let it go even if I never hear a word back? I know this isn’t a case of HR or someone saying ‘you’re not allowed to talk to people who left’ (our HR was very hands off) and I know the cards didn’t disappear (I left some who had locked doors with a trusted coworker who I do text with and she gave them to their people). So then it’s just everyone is choosing not to answer and I need to let it go no matter how much it hurts.

    I know I’m taking it way to personally but I had some truly awful jobs with people I hate who treated me horribly. The job I was furloughed from was the exact opposite of those; I was not overworked, I was treated with respect, and everyone had a kind word even in the worst of circumstances. So this ending to a job I really loved it hard to swallow.

    1. OneTwoThree*

      I feel for you. I don’t think everyone is intentionally ghosting you. It could be a number of reasons they are not reaching out.
      -They feel awkward they have a position while you don’t.
      -It could be how you left your contact info. Did you ask them to reach out with their contact info? They may be waiting until they have a reason to contact you (a reference in the future).
      -They are still preoccupied with COVID-related items.

      1. Fran Fine*

        I’m leaning heavily on points 1 and 3 being the reasons. People are just caught up in their own stuff these days – I wouldn’t take it personally.

    2. have we met?*

      I’m sorry; your kindness seems like it was met with apathy and that’s gotta hurt.

      I would maybe send LinkedIn connection requests to those you want to stay in touch with professionally. That’s an easy “accept” click for them, and not something requiring effort and small talk like a direct call/text.

      Remember they are dealing with their own emotional fallout from the furlough. And then let it go if you can.

    3. Person from the Resume*

      Reality check: People just don’t know what to say at times and in those cases sometime don’t say anything. There’s not even really a standard boilerplate phrase like “sorry for your loss” for death if family a member when someone loses a job.

      You may yet still hear from people; you may not. Try not to take it personally if work friends don’t know how to respond and never follow up.

    4. Artemesia*

      I think you have to leave it alone and I would be disappointed too. Most of them probably haven’t been seen yet. But ALL of them. I know if I got a card like this, I would shoot the person an email or text. It is of course possible that some busy body decided to collect and discard them for some reason — but does seem far fetched. Perhaps if you are in contact with any of them in the future ask — but I would leave it alone now.

      1. JustaTech*

        To be brutally honest to myself, if I got one of these I would read it, think “oh how sweet, I should say something”, and then not be able to think of anything to say, and worry about intruding with a text, and think “oh, I should give Furloughed Ghost some space, I don’t want to make them feel bad” and then … I’d probably forget, because I forget everything I tell myself to do.

        And then in three months I’d find the card again, realize I hadn’t written, feel terrible and … still not write. Hopefully most people don’t react like this, but I know it’s happened to me more than once.

    5. LadyByTheLake*

      It would not occur to me to respond to a card like that — an eternal loop of thank yous for thank yous might ensue. Emails are different, because I can shoot back something like “I liked working with you too, good luck!” But a card — I would like it, think “oh, how sweet/kind/thoughtful” and note for myself to get in touch with you in a few weeks once you were settled in whatever is next. In fact, I just had a colleague leave last Friday and she sent around her new contact info, but (1) I have no reason to contact her yet, and (2) I assume that she’s in transition and even if I had a need to contact her, I wouldn’t at this time. But I really liked her and miss her and want to keep in touch long term.

      1. Cj*

        I, too, would probably look at the card as sort of a thank you if it said anything like “thanks for helping make this a great place to work, and I’ve enjoyed working with your”. I would not thank somebody for a thank you note, and wouldn’t reach out to them unless I had a reason too.

    6. Malarkey01*

      I wouldn’t take it personally, it’s just sort of the nature of work relationships especially if you’d be furloughed for awhile. I’m sure they smiled and thought something like Oh I loved working with Ghost, I’m so sad to see she’s gone. I should send her a quick email to wish her well. Then the realities of work (and even more so if there’s less people doing more work now) got in the way and they were rushed to do a bunch of tasks and just didn’t get around to a note.

    7. Renee Remains the Same*

      As a social awkward person, I can tell you that I might feel a little conflicted about how to form a response. Since you left a card, your coworkers would have to initiate an email or phone call or text. As they’re working and you’re not, they may feel a little discomfort with how to begin.

      But, I hear you… it’s not terribly difficult to write a note to say, “I got your card, I loved working with you too! Hope you’re doing well.” But for people who overthink social interactions, it feels very sensitive.

    8. Teapot Repair Technician*

      I confess I would probably be one of those non-responders if I got your card. Maybe I’d enter your contact info into my phone. But I don’t generally feel the need to respond to cards or farewell messages from coworkers.

    9. animaniactoo*

      Yes, unfortunately, this is something you’ll need to let go. It does hurt, but it sometimes happens that people are friendly in a work context – and especially right now they might not have a lot of headspace for adding additional connections in a non-work context.

      This has the additional aspect of being an entire group – so in a way you’re seeing it as a group. But really it is each person individually, and many of them probably but the card in a drawer and thought “oh that’s nice/sweet” and figured they’ll call/e-mail in a couple of days/next week… and then ended up busy with other stuff and have forgotten they meant to get back to it.

      Sometime post-pandemic or further down the line, if there’s someone in particular you’d like to talk to or catch up with, it wouldn’t be out of line to message them on linkedin, but right now it’s all too new.

    10. Callisto*

      My reality of being the person who does reach out:

      First guy texted me three times over a few months, each time only to pump me for information about his department and whether he was being replaced. When I was unable to answer since I’m not in that loop, he faded out.

      Second guy responded to “Hi Aaron, hope you’re well! How’s the new job?” with “UGH exactly the same” and nothing else.

    11. STG*

      I likely wouldn’t have replied unless we were close coworkers. I’d have appreciated the card and probably thought it was nice but it likely would have ended there. Did you give the cards with the purpose of receiving positive reinforcement?

      I think you should leave it alone. If a coworker left a card on my desk saying it was nice working with you and then approached me because I didn’t email or contact them, I’d find it a bit off-putting. Now if I saw them in the hall at work, I’d absolutely say Hey, thanks for the card but that’s not quite the situation here.

      1. londonedit*

        I agree. If it was someone I’d worked particularly closely with, or been particularly friendly with, then I probably would reply, but otherwise I’d think ‘oh, that’s nice’ and probably put the card in a drawer just in case I needed the contact info at any point.

    12. Red Swedish Fish*

      Were you friends outside of the office, did they invite you to their homes for dinners, birthday parties, barbeques (not work related)? If not then you are expecting too much, you were work friends and now you don’t work there. The cards were very nice, but it would be odd for them to contact you if you didn’t have a relationship outside of work. You are taking this the wrong way.

    13. Middle School Teacher*

      Honestly if I got back to work and found a random card on my desk I would find it a bit weird and I wouldn’t know how to respond. I think you need to let this go.

        1. RussianInTexas*

          But if you have just a work relationship, even a warm one, the card of this sort IS random.

          1. RagingADHD*

            I think it’s both. It was a nice thing to do, nothing wrong with it, but a little random. As in, out of the ordinary.

            And as such, there’s not really an established social pattern for how or whether to respond.

            People do a lot of stuff on autopilot, in a way. And if something goes “off script, ” they just don’t respond at all.

    14. T. Boone Pickens*

      I sympathize with you Ghost and I know it’s hard not to take this personally. However, I come down in the camp of this is just ‘a thing that happens’ regarding work relationships. In an OldJob I worked with two other individuals building a new territory from scratch. It was the 3 of us in it together for almost 7 years and we became incredibly close during that time (attending each others weddings, social outings as a group with each others SOs, etc.) Our team broke apart about 3 years ago and we all went our separate ways. I can honestly count on one hand how many times I’ve spoken to each person since our team broke up. And these are colleagues I spent 50+ hours a week with for almost a decade. Rightly or wrongly, I think this is just something that happens with work relationships when the common bond (the job) disappears and there is nothing there to tether you together any more.

      2. HA2*

        It seems like those bonds have to be explicitly kept up by *someone* if they are to persist past work-breakup.

        The default is for the work-friendship to end when the work-partnership ends. If one of those three people took the initiative and, for a few months post-breakup, took the initiative and set up completely non-work gatherings, not talking about work, maybe it wouldn’t have been hard to convert the work friendship to a non-work friendship. But that process is not the default, and we don’t have nice social scripts for it, so unless someone pushes for it it doesn’t happen.

    15. Sparkles McFadden*

      You did a nice thing and the lack of response doesn’t mean anything negative about you. Let it go. You may hear from someone later on.

      People don’t often know how to act when someone gets let go. Most people don’t handle that well and prefer to just let things be. They feel awkward or guilty that they still have a job, and they are also afraid they’ll lose their own positions. This is especially true in these weird times.

      When I was laid off, I just sort of disappeared because anyone I wanted to keep in touch with already had my contact information.

      When I received a note like yours, I’d take down the contact information and maybe send mine along but that only happened maybe 10% of the time. It’s just part of the nature of work relationships.

    16. RussianInTexas*

      Honestly? I don’t know if I would reached out to the person who left a card and is no longer there. I wouldn’t even think I was expected to reach out. You are now a former coworker, the most what is a possible LinkedIn connection. In my whole life, most colleagues are “out of sight out of mind” situation.
      *Unless the person is a former coworker AND is also a friend.

    17. RagingADHD*

      Leave it alone.

      I’ve had plenty of jobs where I got along just fine with my coworkers and left on good terms. They all had my contact info.

      I maybe heard back socially from two people, ever.

      That’s normal. Unless you actively pursued a personal relationship completely outside of the job, work relationships are tied to the job. When it’s over, it’s over.

      1. RagingADHD*

        And vice versa – it would never occur to me to call 99% of my work buddies after I left.

        1. JustaTech*

          Yup. I have one coworker I text on her birthday (because we share a birthday) and that’s pretty much it. I’ve lost two immediate coworkers in the past year and I’ve had a little bit of contact with the one who was laid off (mostly initiated by her) and some from the coworker who quit (all initiated by her, which is part of why I wasn’t sad to see her go, because she didn’t understand the difference between “friend” and “work friend”).

          In my mind, this is what LinkedIn is for.

    18. Firecat*

      Try to remember that people are overwhelmed right now. It’s hard to keep touch with former co-workers in the before times, but the pandemic made things weird.

      I left a job in 2020, and everyone wanted to go out for drinks etc. as soon as it was safe and now that we are all vaccinated before Delta was surgong every text for a meetup was met with crickets.

      But then I reminded myselft that I was only barely able to handle meeting up with family and going out to a restaurant twice one weekend before I was feeling overwhelmed. It’s just a hard time for everyone and with so much catching up needed it’s understandable that folks only have so much energy and former coworkers are low on the priority list.

    19. Pocket Mouse*

      I think it’s unlikely you’ll get direct responses to your cards except from people you have existing relationships outside the workplace. In addition to what others have said, remember that some folks may be seeing them for the first time weeks or months after you wrote them, and recipients may be hesitant to reply specifically to the notes out of sensitivity (not wanting to bring an unpleasant occurrence back to the forefront of your mind).

      However! You did a kind thing that most of the recipients surely appreciate in some way, and will include in the body of knowledge they have about you, which can influence them to reach out to you with opportunities, speak more kindly or highly of you as a colleague to others, and/or be receptive and supportive when you reach out to them for networking purposes. Even if these situations never come to pass, you made someone’s day brighter during what is surely a difficult time, and that’s worthwhile on its own. Never underestimate the power of a kind note.

      1. Anon today*

        I agree with this completely. If I got a card like this, I would probably think it was a very nice thing, maybe make a note of your contact info, and tuck it away somewhere. I’m probably more likely than most to respond in some way, but in this kind of situation it would be 50-50 for me at best. But it would definitely affect how I perceive you as a person in a positive way, and I do think that’s worth something for a lot of reasons.

        1. No-Name McGee*

          I agree with both of the above responses. You did a good thing. Let that bring you a smile.

    20. Dark Macadamia*

      I didn’t see your previous post but based on your description here I thought it was like a “random act of kindness” type gesture until you said you were disappointed no one has replied. Like if I left a card in everyone’s desk it would be to make them feel good, not with the expectation of a response.

      That said, I would also be hurt that no one replied if I had left contact info! But if I got a card like this I would probably plan to send you an email, forget and remember several times, and then feel awkward that so much time had passed, so try not to assume it’s an intentional snub or they didn’t appreciate it. People are busy and forgetful and especially now might not have a lot of emotional energy for maintaining contact even if they really like you.

    21. Momma Bear*

      I sent out a “hey, nice working with you/here’s my contact info” email when I left my old job and maybe one person actually kept in contact. The sad truth is that often they are situational friends vs friend friends. Try not to take it personally. Connect on LinkedIn if you want for your professional network, but that may be all the relationship they are up for.

    22. Emma Dilemma*

      I’m reading this more like the “bye I’m leaving, here’s my details” goodbye email. Nobody actually immediately contacts the person on reading that.

      I’m sure the cards were a lovely thing to receive though.

    23. I'm just here for the cats*

      I understand how you are feeling. One thing you should try and remember is that this is probably has nothing to do with you. People get so wrapped up in their own lives that they just forget if something (or someone) is not in front of them daily. They probably saw the card, thought “how sweet. I’m totally going to message them later” and then went on with their lives.

      And who knows, they may just be overwhelmed themselves, especially if they are the ones furloughed too.

      Try not to take it personally.

    24. Mari*

      I live in Japan and at my company leaving cards like this is when you leave is the norm. But it’s seen more as a way to say goodbye and thank the people you worked with; there isn’t a very strong expectation that people will get in touch, or at least not right away, and especially if you weren’t close. When I receive cards like this I appreciate them and think it’s a nice gesture, but I have only emailed one person – and that was a year later. So if you could reframe your thinking to this was meant to be a nice thank you and goodbye to your coworkers, I think you would feel better. Also, if you want to keep in touch with specific people, reach out to them.

    25. allathian*

      I’m sorry. In my experience at least, the overwhelming majority of all work relationships are very situational and when you’re no longer working with someone, they just tend to disappear. Even if you had great coworkers, unless you were friends rather than simply work friends, you’re probably expecting too much from them. Were they actual friends rather than just situational work friends? As in, did you ever spend time together when you weren’t working and when it wasn’t a company sponsored event?

      I’m sure most people appreciated the gesture of the card, but many probably didn’t feel like it needed a response. It was a thank you card more than anything else, and those normally don’t require responses. Someone may reach out at a later date to network professionally with you. You could try contacting them on LinkedIn, but not yet. Give it a few more months and get in touch then. That said, many people don’t check their profiles very often, so it could be a bit of a hit and miss there, too.

      I hope you find another great job with great coworkers really soon.

    26. Sleeping Late Every Day*

      When I got laid off from Job A after four years, the only person I ever heard from again was the director, and we are still casual friends decades later. When I left Job B almost 10 years ago, I joined Facebook and that’s how I’ve stayed in contact with several people from that place. I’ve very, very occasionally sent or received a text or email, but some of us stay in touch daily through FB, others pop up weekly or so, and some less often. I’ve actually developed closer friendships with some ex-coworkers in the years since I’ve been gone. pre-Covid, we’d periodically get together in person, and we’re thinking of trying that again if everyone is willing and vaccinated. Individual correspondence can be a pain, but FB is a good way to stay in touch. I’ve only dropped a handful of inactive people over the years.

  3. Well, the Dogs*

    Open door policies: If someone states they have an open door policy, but then has their door closed with the window papered over 95% of the time, is it still an open door policy? Is the shut door (which I think any reasonable person would assume requires a knock, not just opening the door to get access to the person) still consistent with the concept even though it’s not literal?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I think you’re taking “open door” too literally. It doesn’t mean “my door is always open,” it means “there are no gatekeepers and you can come talk to me at any time.” Even if you have to knock.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        ^This.

        My door is always closed because the outside is loud as heck. I often have the blinds partially down because I have maintenance techs running in and out constantly, and the traffic distracts me. I also have a little sign on my door showing if I’m in a meeting or available, though.

        (and this may be a personal peeve of mine, but generally it’s more polite IMO to knock and announce yourself even if the door is open, rather than coming right in and talking immediately.)

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          (and this may be a personal peeve of mine, but generally it’s more polite IMO to knock and announce yourself even if the door is open, rather than coming right in and talking immediately.)

          Yep.

          1. Unkempt Flatware*

            except if you’re my one frustrating coworker who insists on knocking on your door even while making direct eye contact with you.

      2. mreasy*

        Yep, one of the benefits of having an office is being able to close the door against noise. It shouldn’t be a symbolic “stay away.”

      3. Artemesia*

        you never walk into someone’s office even if the door is open without knocking and getting their attention first. Whether the person behind paper and closed door is truly open to walk ins is something you find out by knocking and then judging their reaction to being interrupted. And if they seem put off, you ask when a good time to drop by is or do they prefer a text or email first or to set an appointment?

        In my experience ‘my door is always open’ is in the same jar with ‘come see us some time’ and ‘we must do lunch.’

      4. EngineerMom*

        THIS!

        One of my favorite managers had an office that just didn’t have a window, and we were located in a loud manufacturing area, so literally leaving the door open wasn’t practical.

        But whenever you knocked, he’d always say “come on in!” or “Just a minute”, and then literally open the door a minute later once he’d had a chance to pause what he was doing.

        When he really did need privacy, he just put a red magnet on the door to indicate that he was not to be disturbed (like during 1:1 meetings, private phone conversations, etc.). He was really clear about this, and would take the magnet down as soon as he was done with whatever required privacy, so we knew to take the alert seriously.

    2. ThatGirl*

      I would assume they were not being literal, but meant that they are (almost) always happy to talk. A knock is only polite. I’ve rarely seen “open door policy” mean that their door was literally open all of the time.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      If you’re asking for yourself, and whether it’s ok to keep your door shut, tell people explicitly that they can IM/call/knock any time– that is still consistent with an “open door policy.”

      If you’re asking because your manager’s door is always shut, then assume you should IM or call or email first. Still consistent with the policy– just means they prefer quiet for whatever reason.

    4. Anonymous Koala*

      If you office has slack or teams, you can also use it to check whether the door is ‘open’ or not. My boss has an open door policy, and when I started I would send her a quick ‘hey, can I come talk to you for a minute?” if her door was shut. Now that I know her better, I have a better sense of when it’s okay to knock at the closed door, but it was helpful at first. YMMV

    5. MissCoco*

      To me “open door policy” basically means “Don’t consider the status of my door when you are trying to get in touch.”
      Depending on the person and the office, some people just prefer a closed door for whatever reason, but still want people to feel free to get in touch with them.

      Even if someone does keep their office door open, I often still do a little knock on the door frame before a greeting, unless their desk faces the door.

      1. ecnaseener*

        This. The idea behind an open door policy is to be a symbolic stand-in for a literal physical open door.

    6. Purple Cat*

      Totally depends on the person. Obviously, the phrase is symbolic and not literal. But, what have they communicated about “interrupting them” when the door is closed? Can you always knock? Should you send an IM first to see if they’re available? It’s more about being responsive to anything, not physically keeping the door open, BUT people might feel shut out of being able to initiate a conversation if the door is always physically shut.

    7. Ann Perkins*

      While the phrase itself is symbolic, I do find colleagues less approachable if they almost always have their door shut.

    8. Double A*

      Maybe think of it as an “I will open my door (anytime you’d like to talk)” policy. Or a “just knock!” policy.

    9. Malarkey01*

      I use open door policy to mean I’m open to discussion and to feel comfortable bringing me ideas, problems, general issues and there isn’t a formal process you need to go through before you bring me something or gas keepers- it’s saying I’m approachable and value bottom up communication.
      It doesn’t mean that all interruptions are okay and that I’ll always be able to drop whatever I’m doing to talk this minute.

    10. Robin Ellacott*

      Yes, I often close my door for noise/distraction control, but I have a sign on the door saying “please come in” and try to remember to put up a note when I am in a phone meeting or similar. I don’t think the door being closed means “no entry”.

      That said, I do appreciate people knocking as they open it or otherwise signalling “is now a good time?” before they launch into their question/problem.

    11. Moths*

      I agree with a few of the others that I find someone who leaves their door shut 95% of the time to be less approachable than if they have it open as much as possible. I understand closing it for meetings and noise issues, but in general if someone has their door shut, I’m less likely to knock on it. That could be due to the culture at my office where people do tend to have their doors open most of the time, so for the few people that keep them closed, the impression given is that they don’t want to be disturbed. However, I would take it to mean that if I wanted to meet with them, I’d need to get something scheduled on their calendar rather than just popping by. But I wouldn’t take it to mean they don’t want to talk at all.

    12. Seeking Second Childhood*

      This is something you need to ask the human with a closed-door. It can be as simple as being on a very noisy hallway or having a bad HVAC system.
      I’ve worked for people who welcome work-related interruptions but couldn’t concentrate because their door opened onto a call center’s break area. And I’ve known rooms where the office temperature swings wildly if the door is kept open.

    13. Girasol*

      I was taught that an open door policy indicates that it’s okay to skip in the chain of command. (In some companies it’s considered inappropriate to speak to one’s boss’s boss unless spoken to.) If I think my boss or the organization is doing something wrong, I can drop by to talk to the boss’s boss if his door is physically open, signalling that he doesn’t mind being interrupted. If it’s closed I can make an appointment. That’s still considered open door policy, because with closed door policy, I would not be permitted to initiate a conversation with him at all. I was told to take an important manager’s time very seriously, so I had better be sure it’s important, and in most cases, I had better have taken my concerns to my own boss first.

  4. MMMMMmmmmMMM*

    So, now that things are kinda getting back to normal at the office, and I were to bring in treats, what are peoples favorites?

    1. Collie*

      Pre-packaged stuff is especially nice right now, I think. Even though data suggests COVID doesn’t travel through food, I’m still a little extra cautious about food these days. Mini bags of popcorn, fruit snacks, individually wrapped chocolate (like Lindt), granola bars — all good stuff.

      1. Gail Davidson-Durst*

        I agree, anything that assures me that my cow-orkers haven’t shared their germs all over it would be my preference!

      2. Policy Wonk*

        + 1 Entenmenns has a good selection of individually packaged things from coffee cake to brownies.

      3. Teapot Repair Technician*

        I agree too. Even if COVID went extinct today, I’m permanently in the habit being extra cautious about germs. I haven’t been sick in over a year, and I’d like to continue that streak, even if it means continuing to avoid food that might have been touched by someone.

      4. Lucy P*

        Ditto. Brought in individually wrapped candy today. Did cupcakes for birthdays so it didn’t require too much of a hands-on experience.

      6. allathian*

        Indeed. Even if Covid doesn’t travel through food, plenty of other diseases do, like norovirus, campylobacter, salmonella, staph, clostridium. I’d like to avoid those, thanks!

    2. My cat is prettier than me*

      You can’t go wrong with chocolate chip cookies. I’m also a sucker for high quality cheese.

    3. Warrant Officer Georgiana Breakspear-Goldfinch*

      I have never brought in brownies and not been hailed as a savior. Someone always needs chocolate.

    4. ThatGirl*

      I brought in homemade blueberry muffins the other day and they were a hit. Cookies and brownies usually go over well, or donuts/donut holes.

    5. Jasmine*

      Do you have a freezer in your staff room? If so, a variety pack of ice lollies (popsicles/icy poles) is my go to for summer treats. A little bit fun, no chance of going stale if they don’t get eaten immediately, and always welcome if it’s hot where you are!

      1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        I like the way you think, but unless you’re going for top shelf Vodka, I think you’ll need to supply a mixer.

    8. Caboose*

      There’s a muffin place about five minutes from my new job, and I’m a big fan! I’m not huge on donuts, but a variety of big gorgeous muffins? Yes please.
      I also really like bagels, but the amount of preparation required is annoying. And I am always overthinking how much cream cheese is acceptable!
      We also sometimes have breakfast burritos brought in from a local company, and that’s always a big hit.

    9. Sparkles McFadden*

      I always brought in the individually wrapped Twizzlers bucket. It was very popular. Also Hershey’s Kisses in the candy dish!

    10. Pharmgirl*

      We have a lot of icecream in our freezer now for the summer (individual treats). Muffins or cookies or brownies are always a hit.

    11. Robin Ellacott*

      I’m always amused by the “plague of locusts” response to treats in my office.

      Individual bags of chips go down big here. As so peanut butter cups. I also always buy freezies (both “good” fruit ones and cheapo drugstore ones – I think the cheap childhood ones are more popular!) for the office in the summer and leave them in the freezers.

      A few times during COVID I made seasonal cookies and packaged them in ziploc bags of 2 cookies each, and those went startlingly quickly – I was thinking some people wouldn’t want homemade food even if sealed, but it wasn’t an issue here.

    13. AnotherLibrarian*

      I have brought in homemade cookies and cake and both went over well. Though I do work with college students, so they will eat pretty much anything I bring them happily. They just like the break from cafeteria food.

    14. Donkey Hotey*

      A halfway between “pandemic” and “pre-packaged” is either to bring tongs or take the time to individually wrap them in baggies. Helps reduce touched surfaces (and helps portion control the more… enthusiastic participants).

    15. Distracted Librarian*

      I’m a sucker for almost any homemade baked goods–brownies, cookies, breads… yum. I see others below have a different take, but I don’t worry about COVID on surfaces, because evidence suggests that’s a minimal concern, so bring on the homemade treats!

      1. MMMMMmmmmMMM*

        Yeah, I’m less concerned about COVID on surfaces since I’m in the Bio Department at a University that has over 75% vaccination rate (arguably around 99% in the department, because… biologists), so I’m thinking cookies or brownies.

    16. EngineerMom*

      Pre-packaged iced cookies.
      Donuts with a bunch of napkins for people to grab their own individually.
      Pre-packaged bags of mixed nuts

  5. Sunflower*

    JobSeekers – are you finding that the ball is in your court(vs employers) moreso than before? We are hiring a position and HR is urging us to move quickly because candidates are getting picked up left and right. I’m dipping my toe back in the interviewing pool and hoping it’s better than it was in Feb 2020(the last time I was searching)

    1. have we met?*

      I’m sitting here with no degree and recruiters are contacting *me* for positions that are listed as requiring a bachelor’s.

      Similar boat to yours – I was getting some traction in February 2020 (lots of listings stating “degree or equivalent experience”), then COVID. So I’m making the most of it now. Best of luck to you!

    2. Callisto*

      Nope, I’m still hearing crickets. In a few cases a hiring manager reached out to set up a call, then ghosted after I replied favorably. It’s like job negging.

      1. RB*

        Yep! Me too. Keep hearing about the great resignation and I’m ready to move on after 10 years with my company. Made it to a final interview, then… crickets. Talked to another in-house recruiter who LOVED my background and saw me in a few positions at their org…. crickets.

    3. MMM*

      In the past 2 weeks or so, it’s like a switch was flipped and suddenly I have almost 10 interview requests. I didn’t make any dramatic change to my resume/cover letters or application strategy, so it has taken me by surprise. I don’t have any offers yet, but it’s certainly a nice change from the empty void

      1. Arila*

        Two weeks ago when the quarter/half turned over and everyone came back from vacation? Good to know things are ramping up!!

    4. Audiophile*

      I definitely feel like I’m getting more hits later, especially from recruiters. I just updated my LinkedIn profile so that the random recruiters were at least presenting positions that would be a better fit for my interests. It also seems like I’m getting more interview requests for jobs I’m actually applying for, which is a nice change.

      Good luck!

    6. Recruited Recruiter*

      I’ve noticed this as well. Coming into my current job 3 weeks ago, I turned down several offers due to not liking their org. culture or seeing issues at interviews. I have also gotten two job offers and a couple interview requests since starting at new job.

      1. Fran Fine*

        I just started my new job three weeks ago as well (an internal promotion), and I received an interview request for today from a company I was actually pretty into. And not only did they want to interview me, they wanted to talk to me about coming in at a senior level – I applied to a specialist position because even though I have years of experience, it’s in unrelated areas, so I didn’t think I could do the senior role.

        Sadly, I had to turn them down. If only they had gotten back to me three-four weeks ago when I applied!

    7. voluptuousfire*

      It varies week to week. I’ve had some weeks where I had multiple emails on LinkedIn from recruiters about roles and I heard from a handful of jobs I had applied for. Other weeks it’s crickets.

    8. Teapot Repair Technician*

      I applied for several jobs in summer 2020, with no response.

      In March 2021 I decided to try again. Picked the most attractive job post and applied on a Friday, got a call back on Monday, scheduled phone interview on Wednesday, then a week of silence followed by a call the next Wednesday to schedule an in-person interview on Friday. They emailed me as I was driving home offering more than I had asked for.

      The whole process was 2 weeks from application to offer, which is superfast in my experience.

    9. Hiring Mgr*

      I’n trying to hire and in my field (tech sales), the ball is absolutely in the employees court now.. I’ve had positions unfilled for months, the only way we could finally get a couple of people in was to give them a signing bonus, which is unheard of

    10. Chauncy Gardener*

      I’m in tech and we have folks accept an offer, then rescind to accept another! The recruiters are saying this is super common now

    11. Lisa*

      Not seeking FTE work—my consulting practice is having it’s best year ever—but I am being pursued more by recruiters in the past few weeks than usually happens in a year. I think it really is a sellers’ market for job seekers. Depends on the role and industry of course.

  6. LTL*

    I suspect I already know the answer to this but I’ll ask all the same.

    I received a job offer. I’ve been unemployed for some time now and can’t afford to turn it down. The work itself seems great, but the team’s core hours are 9 to 7, with occasional overtime on top of that, and the commute for me would be at least 1.5 hours each way. Instead of negotiating salary, or even PTO, could I say that I think it’s an excellent opportunity, but I was wondering if I could work 45 hours a week, instead of 50 (doing 8 to 5 instead of 9 to 7)? Or maybe if I could even do 40 hours (8 to 4)? If the chances of them agreeing to this are slim to none, which I suspect may be the case since I’ve never heard of anyone negotiating hours, I’d rather negotiate salary. So I thought I’d get opinions from the AAM community before reaching back out to them.

    For context, the pay they’ve offered is at the bottom of their salary range and is also the minimum I’d expect given the field and location. The PTO they offered is fairly good for the US.

    1. Colette*

      Is it truly 9 – 7 5 days a week? If you’re non-exempt, that would put them in overtime territory every single week.

      Have you asked what those core hours mean?

      If everyone really works 10 hours a day, I don’t think you will have much luck negotiating that.

      1. LTL*

        It’s an exempt position. I spoke to someone on the team and from our conversation, it definitely sounded like they were in the office every day from 9 to 7 at least.

        1. Purple Cat*

          If it’s an exempt position, and they’ve already told you to expect to work 9-7, I don’t think there’s anything to negotiate on the hours. The expectation is your workload is going to be that heavy. So salary is the only thing left.

      2. Clisby*

        Agreed, that sounds strange. I worked for years at a company where core hours were 9-3. The “official” times were: come in any time between 7 and 9; core hours are 9-3; take 30-90 minutes at lunch; work 8 hours outside of your lunch. I put “official” in quotes, because once your manager knew how you worked, it wasn’t unusual to have people coming in at 5:30 a.m. and leaving at 2; or coming in at 10 a.m. and leaving 7 p.m., or whatever.

    2. CatCat*

      Instead of trying to change the hours, which seems like a pretty hard sell, could you negotiate for telework for all or part of time week? Not sure if that’s possible with the type of work you do, but if it is, it could be a great benefit as you’d reclaim 3 hours of your day.

      1. LTL*

        It seems like a fairly traditional company. I suspect WFH would be a very hard sell. I suppose I could potentially say “any chance we can do XYZ hours or WFH?” and give them the option.

        1. Emilia Bedelia*

          I think negotiating hours would be a bigger challenge than negotiating WFH. If you try to negotiate hours, they’re going to think “Who is going to do that extra 5-10 hours of work/week?”. I would think you can try to negotiate start/end time, WFH and/or salary, but not how much time you’re actually working in a week.

    3. Callisto*

      Negotiate the money. They’ll tell you what you want to hear regarding hours, and then it will creep up again anyway over your time working there. Subtle glances, passive-aggressive comments, then outright demands. With the money, it’s tangible and you see it on the page.

      1. Dino*

        And negotiate for enough money so you can afford to pay for conveniences. Things like grocery delivery or meal prep subscriptions, a cleaning company every few weeks, laundry service, pick your most time-consuming chores and pay to not have to do them. It will give you more hours back in your day to make up for the commute.

        And look at having an exit plan/career trajectory mapped out that gets you into a more sustainable schedule sooner rather than later. Good luck!

    4. Toucan Flies*

      Are core hours truly working from 9-7? We have core hours from 9-3, but that just means you have to be in the office from 9-3 and you can work from home the rest of the time.

      Did you clarify that you’d be working daily from 9-7? I’d also just ask if you want to work from 8-5. It seems like you’re missing a step here by not asking them what they can do :)

    5. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

      If they are asking you to work over 40 hours the salary should reflect that. If you get an offer ask what the salary is based on (40 or 50 hours) and compare that to the average for your field which is a median based on 40 hours.

    6. Anonymous Koala*

      Those are looong official hours. Plenty of people I know work those hours, but usually because their work doesn’t fit into 40 hours, not because their boss wants butts in seats for 10+ hours a day. Is this is the norm for your industry?

      If it’s reasonable, I might start by trying to ask for work from home or a hybrid set up if that’s doable for you. You’ll skip the commute and maybe be able to shave off a couple of hours here and there in a way that’s less noticeable than it would be in the office.

      Asking to work reduced hours isn’t unreasonable, but if you’re even a little junior I would worry about the message it sends to your management. If they’re asking for these long hours they must feel it’s necessary or feel it shows a level of investment in the team, and you don’t want anyone to think you’re not invested right from the beginning.

      1. LTL*

        I’m not sure if it’s the norm for the llama grooming industry or if it’s this specific company (which is quite large and well established).

        But in my specific field (let’s say accounting as an example of a field which operates across different industries), it’s not the norm.

        From what I can tell of the company, they don’t seem to like telework.

        1. Anonymous Koala*

          Honestly I would take it as a red flag if a company mandated 10-hour work days without a logical explanation. If you like the job otherwise and can deal with the long days, it could be fine, but I’d be on the lookout for other signs that they don’t prioritize work life balance or employee mental health.
          I do think it’s totally reasonable to ask about the long days, and whether that’s a norm in the llama grooming industry or there’s a special reason for it here, especially since you work in a cross-disciplinary field. And their answer might help you decide how to spend your negotiating capital.

            1. Seeking Second Childhood*

              Is there any chance you misunderstood and this is four 10-hour days?
              I still wouldn’t have the stamina to do it with 3 hours on the road per day–that leaves you only 9 hours/day for hygiene, food, and sleep. Hoping I misunderstood you and it’s 1.5 hours round trip?

              1. Your Local Password Resetter*

                They said 1.5 hours each way, so probably not.
                And that does sound very rough, especially on top of the 10 hour (plus overtime) workday.

                Speaking of, did they explain how often you need to pull overtime? Because this sounds like a company that would be just fine with making people pull 12 hour days every other day.

          2. Renee Remains the Same*

            Came here to say this… I initially thought that they meant people worked between 9-7, meaning an 8 hour stretch during those times. So 9-5 or 11-7. But if they’ve told you that people work from 9 all the way through to 7, thats a red flag.

            They may grant your request to work from 8-4:30, but if you’re salaried, the possibility that you will end up working past those hours is pretty likely and it may become an unwritten expectation, no matter what you end up negotiating.

          3. Cascadia*

            Yes, definitely a red-flag. There’s certain industries that are known for long hours/days (big law, medicine) but I wouldn’t want to work anywhere that expected 10 hours of butts in seats 5-days a week. Can you imagine what overtime then looks like? I think you need to go back and have a frank conversation with them where you really clarify what the expectations are regarding how long people are in the office. Perhaps they have a weird way of defining “core” hours.

    7. WellRed*

      I know you can’t afford to turn down the job but I honestly think you should between the hours which are ridiculous and the commute. It doesn’t seem sustainable.

      1. Siege*

        Or keep your job search going. This sounds like a company (between the hours, the telework limitation, the low salary) that is easy in, easy out since that’s so far out of the scope of reasonable expectations. This sounds like a company that understaffs/can’t retain staff and underpays, so it’s either in financial trouble or management’s expectations and groupthink are bananacrackers.

        1. LTL*

          I think I will do this if I take the job, but I imagine it would also be difficult to take time off for new interviews as a new employee.

          Perhaps it could work if the team dynamic allows for the occasional two hour lunch.

    8. Blackcat*

      I’d be really concerned about this. 13 hours a day away from home, minimum, 5 days a week, is A LOT. That doesn’t leave much time at all for any “life stuff” during the week. I’d frankly be concerned about the health impacts of that.
      Not sure I know what to do, but if I were you, I’d keep applying places and try to make this job as temporary as possible…

      1. RagingADHD*

        A lot of this depends on your life circumstances, too. When I was young, single, and healthy, and lived in a studio apartment, a 13 hour day was NBD, and I’d go out after work a couple nights a week.

        Now, I wouldn’t even consider it because I have a house, a family, and chronic health issues.

        1. LTL*

          I’m young, single, physically healthy, and living with parents who will happily take care of everything at home. But I also know what my mental health low points are like and the thought of potentially triggering that does scare me.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I’d 100% rather have a strong of temp jobs. The more I think about this, the more I’m starting to cringe at the energy drain.

    9. Teapot Repair Technician*

      Yikes, I *want* to believe they’re using some unconventional definition of the term “core hours”. Like they mean you should answer the phone and respond to emails during those hours.

      If they actually expect you to be in the office from 9–7 every day, I would only accept that job if I could negotiate a salary sufficient to cover the cost renting a nearby pied-à-terre. I couldn’t physically survive a job that had me arriving home at 8:30 pm only to leave again at 7:30 am.

    10. Cj*

      That’s 50 hour/week at the office, but not 50 hours of work with a lunch break, unless lunch is paid and you are counting that? Are they telling you that would would actually be working 50 hours/week? If so, and their core hours are 9 – 7, you might be expected to be at the office longer.

    11. I'm just here for the cats*

      what is your comute like and what is the work like? Is it something you could do remotely.

      If your commute is on public transit could you do work on the way. so say 9-7 is the hours. You get there at 9 but leave at 5 and work on the way to and the way home.

      If the commute is long because you’re stuck in traffic during rush hour could you maybe negotiate your starting or ending times. Come in earlier or end later?

    12. learnedthehardway*

      I’d focus on negotiating salary, PTO, and working from home at least a couple days per week (in fact, ask for 3 days per week, and see if they’ll bite). That is more likely to succeed.

      If they work that much as standard hours, at least they are honest. Also, they’re going to want someone committed to the workload. I’d decide whether you were willing to do the workload, and if not, decline the offer, because the expectation is not going to change, whether or not they agree to reduce the hours – even if they do, you’d be out of step with the rest of the team, and that’s going to cause resentment and make your manager think you’re performing poorly, even if you are abiding by a lower agreed number of hours.

      On the other hand, if it’s feasible to work from home, you can get a lot of your life back that way. You could also agree to be in the office X numbers of hours per day and do some of the work from home at night / on weekends. Not ultimately ideal from a work/life balance perspective, but as long as the work is getting done, they might not mind, and it would be evident from your communications/entries into whatever tech they use, that you’re working the right amount of time.

      (Written as I take a break from work on a Friday evening at 11 PM at night….)

  7. anon36*

    My company is forcing everyone to have “growth conversations” with their managers – basically about our career progression and what we want to do. Long story short, I hate my team and the work we do (forced into it after a reorg) and have been trying to leave for almost a year now. I don’t want to pretend to my manager that I love it here and that my future is in this line of work, but I also don’t want to be too honest and potentially get on his bad side. I’ve talked to him about my unhappiness before but he’s clueless and hasn’t made any changes. What’s the best strategy here?

    1. anon36*

      I should add, the reason I don’t want to pretend to be happy is because he will start assigning me a lot of busy work that will only make me more miserable. He’s an awful manager who thinks this is the way to keep the team engaged.

    2. Ayla K*

      Can you focus on one specific thing you want to grow in, rather than trying to have a big picture conversation? Like, say you want to work on your presentation skills and you’d value the opportunity to present a low-stakes project to your team and then get feedback on your style and tone so you can improve.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        This, or cross divisional training. “I’d love to work more with (a team I hope to jump to) if possible.”

        1. Sparkles McFadden*

          Yes, find a way to work with other teams/departments and you might collaborate your way into another job.

    3. Mayflower*

      Can you make it all about what you want? Paid training for a specific skill, and if that’s not in the budget, dedicated time during the workday to work on that skill.

      To determine what that skill would be, do some right-to-left planning: look at job postings for where you want to be, identify the common themes, then identify any gaps in your experience that may be preventing you from getting those jobs.

    4. Teapot Repair Technician*

      I had a job that I didn’t like much where I spent 80% of my time cleaning llama hooves (which I hated) and 20% combing llama hair (which I enjoyed).

      My strategy was to tell my boss that my career goal was to do only llama combing and no hoof cleaning, which was true, and ultimately what happed when I got a job at a different company.

    5. Lisa*

      This is a good situation to be outcome oriented and back up from there. What do you want to achieve, what could your boss do that would actually help with that, what can you say to your boss in your “growth conversation” that would cause that to happen. It is fair game to be a little disingenuous here. Maybe in order to be better situated for new jobs you want to add something to your work portfolio, or have a higher profile. So—just as an example—you can say to your boss, “As part of my career growth I would like to do more content marketing, could I get added to the team of people who publish on our blog” Then you publish content under your byline that highlights your expertise, promote that content on your social media and reference it on your resume. Your boss doesn’t have to know your real reason.

  8. straws*

    Our company is working on our “back to offices” planning. My question is that if we lean more heavily toward remote work, would this not create a concern around future hires being required to have available workspace in their homes? We’ve been actively improving our hiring practices to be more inclusive and accessible, and this seems like a really quick way to eliminate a chunk of the hiring pool. How do remote companies handle this potential for discrimination?

    Additionally, our offices are small and we’re not in a position to pay for extra space unless absolutely necessary. So maintaining a full workspace for every employee just in case they want to be in isn’t going to fly with our higher ups in finance/budgeting.

    1. mreasy*

      We’re doing floating desks if you’re planning to be in the office fewer than 4 days/week, but anyone who wants to be there FT gets a dedicated space. Is this an option? Agreed that remote only can be tough for folks with certain living situations.

      1. straws*

        Maybe. That’s partly what I’m trying to figure out, and it definitely sounds like something we’ll need to do in some way. We were fairly packed in before the pandemic. Perfectly acceptable pre-pandemic, but certainly not for the current world we live in. So that reduces the space we have. At some point I need to find out the details of what everyone needs or prefers, but I want to make sure that the options I present to them are realistic.

      2. Windchime*

        This is what our office is doing, too. If a person plans to work in the office 3 or more days per week, then they can get an assigned desk. Anyone else who is planning to just come in occasionally will have to use a “hotel” desk and will need to reserve it ahead of time. People will have the option of working full time from home, full time in the office, or anything in between.

    2. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      Remote work can be optional. Some folks want to be back in offices. Those folks get a dedicated workspace. Everyone else gets to hot desk. New hires can have the same set of options – remote, flex or in office. If they don’t have a suitable home office space, they can work from the office.

      1. straws*

        Thanks, yes I agree with this. Our limited office space may be a concern, but it will come down to what people actually want. So perhaps I’m overthinking too early on.

    3. DG*

      Hoteling is becoming the norm in a lot of companies trying to figure this out – i.e., all or a portion of the workspace is open and up-for-grabs for whoever’s in the office. This brings its own set of challenges (i.e., not being able to keep items at your workspace overnight, competition to get seats on days when the office is full).

      Ultimately I think the best move is to promote an environment where everyone’s able to make the most of the workspace they have and won’t face judgment for it. Don’t insist people be on camera if it’s not necessary, provide a stipend for reliable internet access, etc. My spouse’s workplace is going fully remote in some teams and is insisting every remote employee have a separate home office with a door that can close (and can submit a photo to prove it), which is wild to me – what if someone lives in a studio apartment? What if they share a workspace with a partner or roommate? What if the strongest wifi signal just happens to be in the living room or kitchen?

      1. straws*

        Yes, exactly – these are some of the questions I’m asking. We’ll likely not be fully remote on most of our teams, just due to the nature of our work and finding that certain types of collaboration aren’t as productive remotely. However, a hybrid environment does still require reasonable space at home to work. I feel that we’ve been lucky so far that everyone we have on board and have hired are capable of finding suitable workspace at home. For myself, I wouldn’t be able to have a home office with a door! I have a desk in the kid’s play area (they aren’t home during work hours… anymore… thankfully) and I mostly work from my kitchen. And I’m near the top of the food chain at our company. So I can’t even imagine making this a requirement/expectation for entry level employees. Thank you for your feedback though, this is very helpful to hear!

        1. Fran Fine*

          My spouse’s workplace is going fully remote in some teams and is insisting every remote employee have a separate home office with a door that can close (and can submit a photo to prove it), which is wild to me – what if someone lives in a studio apartment?

          Yeah, definitely don’t do this, especially if your employees aren’t dealing with other people’s personally identifiable information. I’ve been working from my studio apartment full time for over two years now, and it’s been just fine. Do I wish I had an actual desk and didn’t need to set up my equipment on my dining room table every day? Sure. But I manage, and I wouldn’t want to go into anyone’s office for any reason.

      2. Windchime*

        Yeah, this seems nuts to me, too. We’ve been working from home since March 2020, and I have seen a lot of guest bedrooms, kid’s bedrooms, unfinished basements, kitchens, etc. People are setting up where it’s convenient and nobody thinks a thing about it, as far as I can tell. As long as the camera works correctly and there is nothing offensive in the background, it’s all good.

    4. Slipping The Leash*

      Based on my coworkers’ thoughts on returning to the office, I suspect you might be looking at this backward. Future hires will look at remote work as benefit, not a problem.

      2. straws*

        It will be a benefit for many, sure, but only if they actually have a reasonable location to work from at their home. Not everyone has that luxury. I’ve already looked at things very heavily from the side of remote as a benefit, but I want to make sure I’m looking at it from both sides to make a truly informed decision.

      3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        Certain workers will, but it will be one more barrier to other workers who don’t have access to or can’t afford high-speed internet options, space for work from home, or travel expenses with short notice. My org has rewritten the WFH policy to include some pretty high technology standards for WFH, they aren’t paying for any internet/phone or increase in utility bills, if you have a power outage or your internet goes down, or your connection is bad — you either come in or use PTO, and WFH can be yanked at any time at their discretion, so workers who move away beware.

        1. Siege*

          Then there’s the transit issues – let’s say I have an internet outage at home but my partner has the car and I can’t actually feasibly get to my worksite in less than an hour and a half by public transit and that’s if everything goes right (it’s 25 minutes by car). It’s a barrier to younger, urban-resident workers who have declines in overall car ownership. Obviously this does not apply if the workplace is at or near a transit hub. We actually had a staffer who’d gotten a driver’s license to work at my org (she’s 33, so not new to the workforce, has a doctorate, just didn’t want to drive) quit when it looked like remote work was going to end because it’s such a huge pain to get to the office from her place. It wasn’t the only reason but it was a factor.

          I think the best you can do (and are doing) is think it through as WFH is a benefit to the employees, here are the needs for it to be a real benefit, and WFO is a benefit to the employee, here are the needs for it to be a real benefit. One thing you might do is consider what alternate locations could work. Would your company be open to a small stipend for coworking space? If they are able to reduce their overall costs by having workers remote, that might help.

          And of course the other part of it is all you can do is lay out the expectations of the different kinds of work. If your office is horrified that I’ve been working at the kitchen table for the last year and a half, I live in a four-room apartment (and one of those rooms is the bathroom) and have two doors, but I also have no kids and don’t eat formal meals by myself, so my idea of a reasonable workspace is different from someone with kids. You might want to set up a sheet of needs/wants for work (must be able to attend meetings remotely with good bandwidth or something) and walk through that with new hires so they can make the right choice for them.

          1. AcademiaNut*

            That strikes me as a good balance. Set out reasonable requirements, and the options, and let the employees decide what works for them.

            A fast enough internet connection, a generally quiet place to have telecons and full time childcare, for example, are reasonable requirements. If WFH when your kid is sick or on snow days, spell out the parameters of that. If you have confidential information, or people on call with clients (or both), the requirements for office space and may be stricter (neutral background, room with a closing door, locked cabinet for files).

            Some other things to consider – equipment allocation. Do you provide two office setups for hybrid employees, or prioritize one (ie, mostly WFH get a computer and equipment stipend for home, but hotdesk for the office, or their own cubicle and setup at work, but they manage most of the home stuff on their own. Meetings – if you’ve got meetings where some people are in the meeting room, and others are Zooming in, you need a setup that facilitates that, or the remote people will get left out. For hybrid employees, is it on a set schedule, or flexible, how many days a week in each place, and are they expected to come in for particular events (meetings, etc). Do you allow full time remote work with employees who physically can’t come in? What are your policies when someone can’t work due to something on their end (can they flex hours, take PTO).

        2. Anon today*

          Yeah, and this will be different in different places, too. A couple people on my husband’s team worked in the office throughout the pandemic even when nobody else was allowed in the office because they live in rural areas with no high-speed internet access. You don’t have to go far out of town in our area to get to a place like that.

    5. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

      My office has a 50% rule. If you’re going to be remote for more than 50% of the pay period, you don’t get a dedicated desk. The less than 50% in office group then works together to determine who is going to be in when to best allocate the remaining desks that are not being used by the over 50% team.

      1. straws*

        50% seems like it could be doable for us. Do you know if they simply communicate via email or chat or is there a scheduling system set up?

        1. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

          There was a department wide spreadsheet that went out (super awesome technology I know! but it did serve its purpose) that had everyone mark what days they planned on coming in to the office should they get their optimum schedule (they wanted to be fair on who got full time remote, etc, so you had to put in a request). Then they just grouped by team and/or days of the week for the cubes. So the cube next to mine has Jack on Monday, Jill on Tuesday, Frank on Wednesday, no one on Thursday, and Jack on Friday. It’s written on a small whiteboard on the cube wall too so that people who came in for an emergent meeting would know that no one would be sitting there on Thursday, thus they could use it as an open cube. So far its worked well.

    6. Malarkey01*

      Hot desking as others have said and before CoVid we could pay for employees that needed to rent a desk at one of the companies that do workspace rentals if there was a need for a remote person to have office space (this was normally for someone who needed it only temporarily as most generally worked out of their home- someone had a fire in their apartment building and needed a more traditional workspace until he could get back into his apartment, someone else had an ailing mother in law move in and needed to be out of the home during the workday sort of stuff).

    7. CurrentlyBill*

      Supporting remote work makes your organization more accessible, not less. It opens up a lot more opportunities for disabled folks.

      You mentioned concerns about discrimination against folks who don’t have a dedicated work space. That’s not a protected class. Driving more remote work means your are less likely to be descriminating against the disabled

      1. mreasy*

        But requiring WFH (rather than simply offering it) means anyone who prefers to WFO will self-select out. This means potentially missing out on good candidates, including those whose economic and/or family situation makes WFH not feasible. Legality aside, equity would require thinking of an accommodating solution like the OP wants to.

        1. Stitching Away*

          Companies don’t have a right to any employee they desire. The company just doesn’t get that candidate, which is you know, what happens when they are unwilling to lay down the money to be competitive for employees.

          You’re also misunderstanding what equitable means. You’re using it to mean everyone should be able to park in a handicapped parking spot, regardless of whether or not they have a disability. That’s simply not how it works.

    8. Teapot Repair Technician*

      I can’t work from home because my apartment is too small (plus the AC and internet are unreliable).

      For me, the best solution would be to receive a stipend to cover either a co-working space or a larger apartment. That would probably be something like $300–600/month.

    9. StellaBella*

      GitLab used to, and may still, provide each new hire $2000 to set up each enployee’s home office space as they are and always have been fully remote. Allows people to get all supplies they need but does leave the question if you are in a tiny studio, you may not have room for a desk, chair, monitor etc.

    10. Rana*

      I love that you’re thinking about this, but I do think that you may be overthinking slightly, in that different people will have to select out in either case. It is a privilege to have enough space in your home to work from home, but it can also be a privilege to either live close enough to the office to be able to commute or to have the time/resources to commute from farther away. This is not a new question, and I don’t think it’s clear that which of WFH or WFO is more difficult for the types of people you are concerned about discriminating against.

      Offering some flexibility would definitely help either way. If you can support some amount of WFH and WFO for all employees, that would be awesome. And you should certainly purchase on the company’s dime anything they would have gotten in the office (computer, monitor/mouse/keyboard, chair, desk, maybe printer, some way to receive phone calls to a company number, phone/internet stipend to offset some of the cost – basically you should think about the savings of not having an office as only being the real estate piece and continue to budget for utilities and equipment). And be as lax on office space requirements as you can be – there may be some legitimate need for privacy or security but don’t impose anything that isn’t absolutely critical for that particular role.

      But if the company decides to go with a primarily WFH workplace, that’s not (in my mind) any more inherently discriminatory than a company deciding to go primarily WFO. And as PP pointed out, in many cases WFH is more doable for those with less privilege.

      1. Cascadia*

        Yup, agree here. It’s great to think about stipends or what else your company can offer, and I think flexibility is key. But the most important thing is that your company is upfront in the job description and the interview process about what is and is not expected/available so that people can self select whether or not this is a good job for them. I personally hate WFH and would not apply to a job that had any. There are other people out there looking for full-time WFH. And some people want a hybrid. You’re going to lose out on good candidates no matter what you do because everyone has different preferences, in addition to different access. Best thing you can do is be clear and up front about the expectations so that no one feels like they have wasted their time in applying/interviewing.

    11. Hillary*

      We’re thinking a lot about how we set entry-level people up for success. A lot of ours have space constraints that make WFH challenging (roommates + WFH = in your bedroom all the time), plus learning by osmosis is a huge part of many entry-level jobs.

      In my head, entry level means we must have a desk for them. 3+ years of experience means give them the choice but be ready to find a permanent desk. Remember the people who manage entry level also need desks because they’ll be coming in. Most of our folks who are choosing permanent WFH are experienced professionals who work independently and also have long commutes.

      I think you can support future employees’ choices by keeping a little flexibility in your real estate plans. Cubes that can move slightly closer if necessary, that kind of thing.

    12. Lisa*

      I think if you truly give people options they will self-select to what works best for them. Someone who lives in a studio apartment with a WFH spouse is not likely to opt into remote unless they have a concern such as being immunocompromised. And then make it clear you will facilitate the arrangement. It would be completely reasonable to calculate the cost savings of a fully or partially remote employee and offer them that amount as a stipend for upgrading their tech, chair, internet… adding a room divider if they need one to partition their space. And continue providing flexibility to those who need it for the duration. Some kids have health concerns that mean they can’t go back to in-person learning yet. *Millions* of people survived COVID with long-term effects. The more you can be supportive and flexible and empathetic and meet people where they are at, the better your recruitment results are likely to be.

  9. Gail Davidson-Durst*

    I turned down two growth opportunities – how do I navigate a third possibility?

    In the past two years, my boss and grandboss have set up a couple chances for me to try on a role that could lead to a promotion and a management position. The first one was just a terrible fit and I spent over a year trying to shed some of the obnoxious responsibilities that came with it.

    This year I took charge of our summer intern, and while I like him and I think I did OK, I just really hated being a “manager” – I realized I do a ton of caretaking at home and when I go to work I like to just focus and use my brain and not worry about overseeing others!

    Now I think I want to grow in the technical direction and become an expert individual contributor.

    Any tips on how to get past my two “failures to launch” and move in the direction I want?

    1. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      Are your bosses people who you can have frank conversations with? If so, I’d frame it as “when I did x, while it wasn’t ultimately a good fit, I learned x, y and z. When I did L, I learned M, N, and P. Based on these learnings I would like to try A because of b and c, and hope to accomplish d and e.” Focus on what you learned from those other opportunities and how they’ve influenced your decision to go in this other direction.

    2. Chilipepper Attitude*

      Do you mean “get past them” internally or with your boss and grandboss?
      I think either way, focus on what you learned from these experiences.
      This is what we mean when we say life is a journey, not a destination.

      You can just talk to your boss and grandboss what your goals are! If they have some sense that there has been a failure to launch, you can rephrase it as a learning experience and that you have a much clearer sense of the direction you want to go in.

      1. Gail Davidson-Durst*

        Ooh, that first question is excellent! I had been thinking externally, but you made me realize I needed to sort it out internally as well!

    3. BeenThere, Done That*

      Honesty is the best policy in this case.

      If you don’t feel your strengths or interests align with being a manager, you need to explain that clearly to your boss and grandboss.

      I get it, I honestly do, because I’ve been a manager, didn’t enjoy it, and am now clear that management is not something I am willing to do. It’s not a lack of ambition to find yourself not wanting control over or responsibility for others.

      You can find other ways to be ambitious that don’t require you to be in permanent control of the lives of others. New projects, new ideas, anything you can think of might be more than enough “ambition” to satisfy your superiors.

      Management needs to realise that not everybody wants their jobs. Especially if it is something you have tried and not found to be a good fit.

    4. Arila*

      I dunno, these sort of trial assignments seem like actually a really good strategy to make sure someone will succeed in a future role before promoting them up to failure. Just because they weren’t a long term fit didn’t mean you didn’t do well in them (despite not liking them) or that the discovery that you actually want to go in a different direction indicates a failure. If you have regular meetings where you could bring up your long term goals (or schedule a special one if not), I would ask that the next “higher level” assignment be more towards your IC goal.

    5. Sylvie*

      I wouldn’t view these as failures. You’ve determined there are things that you aren’t looking for in a future professional role and it’s helping you to narrow the scope. I agree with other posters that you frame those experiences as lessons learned and use that to pivot the conversation with your leadership to functions you are interested in developing. In my experience it was a lot more helpful figuring out what I didn’t want to do as I grew professionally.

    6. Gail Davidson-Durst*

      Thanks y’all! It’s really helpful to frame this (for myself as well as my bosses) as learning experiences, where I determined specific things that led me to think Possibility 3 is a really good fit for me.

      I’m lucky that there are at least two official bands above me for individual contributors, so I’m not locked out of advancement if I don’t want to be a manger!

  10. have we met?*

    Need advice on job interview clothes! I plan to ask about the dress code beforehand (and dress a step up if possible), but I’d love to not have to buy anything. Here are some details:

    – Female presenting
    – US Midwest
    – Educational non-profit, not academia
    – Assistant/individual contributor where some creativity is part of the role

    Ideas?

    1. the cat's ass*

      good luck on the interview! My go to is blazer, white shirt, black trou or skirt, and a REALLY snazzy scarf. Hope that helps!

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      If you don’t want to buy anything, I think it would be helpful if you could offer up some items you already have in your closet, or outfits you were considering. Otherwise we’ll just be offering you generic advice that might not be helpful to you if you don’t already own that piece of clothing.

      Is this your first interview and you’re not sure where to start, or have you interviewed in the past and not felt good in your outfits, or you’ve interviewed for places vastly different from where you’re interviewing now and don’t think what you’ve worn in the past would work?

      1. have we met?*

        Basically, do I need to buy a blazer or suit? Or will a nice black cardigan with non-jean work slacks suffice? I think a black blazer could help polish up some of the things in my closet. My suits no longer fit (pandemic-related snacking).

        I had one in-person interview during the pandemic and felt overdressed. What’s expected these days for a role at this level?

        1. Siege*

          To me a cardigan sounds underdressed, but it depends on the knit; if it’s slouchy and your shirt shows through that’s a no to me. I would agree that you need a blazer or other nice jacket that adds a tailored note, but it depends on the bottom, too.

          I’m on the west coast with no idea what the Midwest’s fashion sensibilities are, though. I am education-adjacent! We tend to be more casual.

        2. A Simple Narwhal*

          I don’t think you need to buy a full suit – I’ve found that either a blazer or nice (button-up) cardigan can touch up every outfit, though I usually pair it with a pencil skirt and blouse or a nice dress (especially in the summer when it feels too hot for pants, but I also personally feel more dressy in a skirt/dress). I also like that you can get blazers in soft comfortable fabrics that still look very professional without being uncomfortable (which I’ve found a lot of suit jackets to be). But you can potentially skip the blazer completely if it’s really hot out and just go for a nice blouse or a dress.

          Overall I don’t think it’s a problem to feel overdressed in an interview, it’s always better to be overdressed than underdressed.

        3. Observer*

          As @Siege says, a slouchy type cardigan would be under-dressed. If it looks like part of a sweatsuit or a hoodie without the hood, I’d say to casual. If it’s structured and a nice material, it should be fine, especially if you have a nice shirt or blouse. Also, accessories.

    3. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      I’ve always gone with a black or grey blazer with coordinating trousers or skirt + jewel toned blouse. I wear black flats (because I am already tall and F heels!). Alternatively, you can go with a professional dress + blazer. Neutral makeup, hair clean and brushed.

    4. Chilipepper Attitude*

      I don’t recommend asking about the dress code beforehand. But do ask someone who plays any kind of mentor role for you or who knows your field what the expected interview clothes might be.

      I think you cannot go wrong with a suit or suit-like outfit but in some fields, a full on suit is a must, in others, it would not be. So you need to know the field more than the specific dress code for a place where you are interviewing.

      I think educational non-profit would expect to see a suit-type jacket for an interview with a simple top and professional pants or skirt. the cat’s ass gave a good suggestion but simple narwhal is right that we would need to know what you have to help adjust for that.

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Seconding this: don’t ask about dress code prior to interviewing! If you’re unsure, stick with something dressy and subdued, like a sheath dress or dress slacks/skirt and a nice blouse. But don’t ask your interviewer.

      2. have we met?*

        Interesting! I read an article that recommended asking. I was planning to ask the person coordinating the interviews (she also did the screening phone interview) and not the hiring interviewer.

        Sounds like a jacket will be needed, and maybe some nicer pants/skirt too. Shopping this weekend.

    5. Alex*

      Educational non-profit? Nice slacks, nice top, accessories, and some smart shoes should do it. I don’t think you need a blazer. A professional-looking dress that is well accessorized would also be fine.

    6. MissCoco*

      The outfit I’ve gotten both my jobs in, and wore to my top choice grad school interview: a pencil skirt, and a button up shirt in a small but fun print.

      Depending on the weather, and how dressy the situation is, I can add tights, a blazer, and jewelry or go more casual by rolling up the shirtsleeves and wearing oxfords instead of flats. I also wear light makeup and make sure my hair is glued down with some hairspray.

      I think the reason this outfit works so well is that I feel like a put together version of myself, but it still feels very “me.” A mix of traditionally feminine and menswear items, a bit of fun and color, and very practical.

    7. Long Furby*

      Female presenting, Midwest, Academic Non-Creative here. My go-to is always a neutral sheath dress (I like only having one piece and not having to coordinate a top and bottom, but that’s just me) and a blazer. I have three blazers, a burnt orange one, a teal one, and a black one. Depending on the setting, I might add a little flair with the colored blazer, but for the most careful look, I go grey dress black blazer.

      When I sat on hiring committees with an art curator, she often had patterned or more creatively cut blazers and statement jewelry. I think her creative role gave her some more expected leeway in freedom of expression than my technical role. It was always fun to see what she’d wear!

    8. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

      Female presenting, US East Coast, government contractor, I normally go with a pant suit with a ‘shell’ top under the jacket, and low heels or loafer dress shoes.

    10. Autotune you out*

      I recommend joining your local Buy Nothing group. Mine is very active, and would have lots of people happy to give or lend out a blazer or whatever needed outfit item you’re looking for.

  11. ThatGirl*

    Here’s a random question: Does your office/company do a lot of swag? What are some of your favorites?

    Turns out my new job does a lot of “stuff” for our sales reps to give out, and then the office folks often end up with the extras. So far I’ve gotten a really nice tall tumbler with a straw, a squat Yeti tumbler with a sippy lid, a wine set (corkscrew, foil cutter, pour spout, stopper) and a set of spice mixes. It’s kind of random, but honestly it’s nice stuff!

    (Oh, I also got a business card holder, which amuses me, because I feel like most people don’t have business cards anymore?)

    1. Ann Perkins*

      My company does a lot of swag too. Tumblers are popular but I’ve also seen pens, visors, wine glasses, and tote bags as popular items.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        Legit question: Why are tote bags popular? I don’t use them for much; I have several backpacks I use when needing to carry a bag. They just gather up space.

        Similar and less useful those string backpack bags that come with swag from a charity race. They collect the swag and your race number in the bag and hand it to you but I’m left with a bag that I can’t recycle but don;t use because the two real backpacks I own are better quality.

        Not a coffee drinker here so mugs are not useful to me (I have more mugs than I need), but quality water bottles are good and that yeti drink bottle sounds amazing.

        1. londonedit*

          Where I live there’s a small charge for carrier bags in the shops, so a lot of people have a stash of reusable bags to take to the supermarket with them. Tote bags are popular for that. I guess from the company’s point of view, they’re also pretty cheap and easy to produce, and the majority of people could probably find a use for an extra shopping bag.

        2. Kimmy Schmidt*

          I use tote bags more for storage than carrying. For example, I have a tote bag filled with craft supplies, one with cross stich projects, and one with nail polish. Sometimes I can just grab the whole bag and go, like if I’m having a crafting night at a friend’s house. I also use them for straight storage – tights, makeup bags, smaller purses, electrical cords.

          1. often trapped under a cat*

            This is a True Fact. I have so many and use them all. Small ones that live in my backpack for when I realize I need to stop at CVS or the greengrocer. Taller, sturdier ones that I use for my regular grocery shopping. Horizontal ones that are perfect for slinging over one shoulder while making a Target run or hitting the greenmarket. Really tough ones for lugging tools around. Big ones with zippers that hold enough stuff for an overnight trip. Clear plastic ones for the beach. One that is just the right size to take to a museum: holds the map (when paper maps were a thing), a bottle of water (or two), my distance-vision glasses so I can read labels, sometimes a snack, and whatever I’ll be reading on the subway.

        4. Long Furby*

          It’s a running joke in librarianship that we all have a tote bag full of conference tote bags somewhere in our basements. I know I do!

          1. Sandan Librarian*

            I also have one of those. It fills my conference suitcase and my cat sleeps on the lot of it so that I can always spot my luggage: it’s the bag covered in cat fur!

        5. Dark Macadamia*

          Yeah I dislike tote bags, they’re usually not a great size/shape for groceries and I don’t have anything else I would use them for! I actually do like the little drawstring backpacks for when I’m doing something like going to the pool or taking a walk, when all I need to carry is keys/phone but I don’t have pockets on my outfit.

        6. Koala dreams*

          Grocery shopping, laundry, separating things in your travel case… Basically the same as other bags. String bags are for sports or swimming, mostly, but you can put anything in them. Yarn, for example.

          If you don’t need the bags, check if the local second hand shop needs bags for customers. My local second hand shops usually do.

        7. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Home: Groceries and multiple concurrent craft projects.
          Work-related: easily transportable project organization for partial WFH with non-electronic records & materials. And schlepping my laptop accessories around so I don’t have to buy a laptop case.

        8. Disco Janet*

          For the same reason backpacks aren’t popular! Sounds like you just prefer backpacks. I feel like backpacks give me a younger appearance (which isn’t something I want as a young-ish high school teacher.)

          2. allathian*

            Depends on the backpack. I need the weight of anything I carry to be evenly distributed to avoid back pain. I can’t even tolerate a crossbody purse anymore, even if it only contains my cellphone, public transit ticket, a packet of tissues, a couple masks, and my keys. When I got my current laptop from work, they asked if I wanted a laptop case or a backpack to go with it, and I picked the backpack. There are also very stylish luxury brand backpacks available, although I guess they’re probably out of a teacher’s price range.

    2. Jasmine*

      All my favourite pens have been branded swag – a nice ballpoint with a rubberised grip is my current go-to. Very smooth.

      1. DiscoTechie*

        This – I have been put off by companies putting out crappy writing utensils. You can not send terrible squeaky cheap mechanical pencils to engineers and expect me to spec out your product. On the other hand, I have a pen from a pipe manufacturer that I use a lot that is a quality pen.

        1. HBJ*

          Lol, my dad used to say the same thing. He’d get catalogs for all the branded stuff he could order, and he’d roll his eyes because it was all crappy.

      2. Lizy*

        I think I still have some pens from 2-3 jobs ago/8+ years ago. We had them in a jar for clients and I swear we had to replace them daily.

    3. Callisto*

      North Face fleece with breast-pocket-embroidered logos. I love stuff like that because if you ever leave on a bad note, you can use a seam ripper and still have a great jacket sans logo.

    4. Ginger Baker*

      Folks definitely have business cards still, though I am sure it is industry dependent – I had a whole stack of them for my boss back in the office and definitely used them!

      My fave is the Yeti cups because they are SUPER useful. Though I’ve also unexpectedly found use for a large gym-ish bag I didn’t plan to use (it has become a truly excellent hospital go-bag, which given my elderly mother has been in fairly heavy rotation). I have several tshirts but they are a mixed bag, some are suuuuper comfy but others are meh. Oh! I do use also some umbrellas (partly because I am terrible at keeping track of mine) and a beach towel that is in heavy use for normal towel usage but in a nice large size.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I’ve just never even been offered business cards as part of my job (meaning, had someone ask if I wanted them ordered for myself) – but then, I’m not in a public-facing role or one where I have to interact with outside vendors/clients at all. Probably our sales reps do have business cards and they’re probably the ones who got those first. Just struck me as kind of funny, like, what am I supposed to do with this?

        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          I’ve definitely gotten business cards at conferences, etc.

          Depending on the size & design, you can use the holder for paperclips, sticky notes, holding a photo, etc. If it’s the kind that closes (not clear if it’s to put on your desk or in your bag), you can use it as a pill box or to hold other small items.

          1. ThatGirl*

            It’s a small metal closeable case with the company logo on it – pretty nice, actually, just don’t have much use for it. I don’t really use paperclips at work. I appreciate the suggestions, though :)

      1. often trapped under a cat*

        I’ve gotten a couple of multi-tools or toolkits over the years and unfortunately many of them are not particularly sturdy, which is too bad, because a small toolkit can be really useful.

    6. Justme, The OG*

      We do a lot of swag, but I work in higher education. Lots of pens and notepads but some nicer coffee tumblers and laptop sleeves.

    7. Colette*

      I got a cubicle blanket at a former employer. (That’s not what it was officially called, but it was a really soft blanket that was square, and perfect for using while seated.)

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        My favorite too–it was called a stadium blanket, but it became a defense against the cold air that blasted out of the vent over my desk all year round. (And it was one I wouldn’t mind leaving behind if caught in another layoff.)

    8. AndersonDarling*

      I’m overloaded with tumblers, I just had to donate a load to Goodwill. Same with sports bottles.
      My favorite swags are good quality reusable shopping bags, little spray bottles of hand sanitizer, and my absolute favorite was a little personal fan that spritzed water. I live in a hot climate.
      I also like umbrellas, but I only need one. And I know people that go gaga over stickers and patches.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I have a LOT of tumblers, that’s true – but the Yeti one I got is so nice! I should donate the less-nice ones.

        The fan sounds nice :)

    9. CleGuardians*

      My company doesn’t do much swag, but I go to a lot of conferences and my favorite weird swag item is a rubber circle used to open jars. It’s super random but I use it a couple of times a month, much more than my branded stress balls/pens/etc.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Ha, I have a few of those my dad has given me (he used to go to a lot of conferences) and they ARE very handy.

      2. Thursdaysgeek*

        One Memorial Day we visiting the graveyard, and the staff was handing out swag. Weird. But I really like my “Pizza Cutter of Death.”

      3. Ginger Baker*

        Apparently those are called a “rubber husband” – a fact my sister giggles over all the time and – after getting our household some – we too use them ALL the time!

      1. ThatGirl*

        I got one of those too! It actually threw me off at first ’cause I thought it was a dry erase marker, and then I uncapped it.

    12. Bagpuss*

      My org. doesn’t do a lot but we get stuff from outside organisations from time to time.
      Things I’ve liked getting:
      – umbrella (it’s useful to have spares, and to have one that I can lend without worrying too much if it doesn’t come back!)
      – Good quality bags – I don’t much like the really thin cotton ones, but I’ve had a few that are more sturdy, with a proper gusset, and wider handles, and they are useful.
      – notepads and fancy post-its. I like notebooks generally , and having branded ones that are a decent quality is nice for use at work. And sometimes it’s useful to have a selection of difference colours and sizes of post-its
      – food. A while back I had (In a slightly random bag of stuff from one of our suppliers) a mini tin with some little chocolate chop cookies – I particularly liked that they had their own tin, as I could keep it in my drawer and eat them over the course of a few days without them going soft or getting crumbs in the drawer!) One of our departments got sent jelly beans a while back which were very popular .

      I’m not very interested in mugs or cups but a good quality insulated flask/water bottle would be nice.

      I’ve never had a business card holder although I do have, and carry, business cards!

      1. Bagpuss*

        Oh yes, and last summer when some of the restrictions in my country were relaxed, I got a ‘back to the office’ bag which included a little bottle of hand sanitizer on chain so you could clip it to a pocket or bag to have with you, and some phone/keyboard wipes , which was handy. They also sent some mini packets of seed to grow your own herbs, which was stranger…

        1. Lizy*

          Oooohhh I saw a group do a really unique one – they were launching a new branch/section and had little “samples” of meat seasoning (like a seasoning mix for chicken or whatever), related to their specific city’s cuisine.

    13. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Back in the late 90s & early 2000s, logo denim shirts were all the rage for some reason. Got a half-dozen from partners and vendors.

      Those were some of the best shirts I’ve ever owned. Really good quality, heavy duty. I still wear some of those shirts 20 years later. Clothing swag back then was so much better than it is now.

      The only things we give out now are tumblers and coffee mugs.

    14. Zephy*

      OldJob was all about the swag, they did a lot of community outreach and had lots of corporate sponsors for events, so our swag closet was usually about 50/50 stuff branded with our logo vs stuff branded with a sponsor’s logo. By the time I left that job I had a coffee cup, tumbler with straw, so many tee shirts, phone holder shaped like a cat, pen shaped like a dog, pen shaped like a cat, pocket screwdriver with multiple interchangeable heads, air-vent-mounted phone holder, pocketbac hand sanitizer (pre-COVID, even!), paw-print-shaped scratch pad, doggie poop bag dispenser with leash clip, and two tote bags, one of which I still use as a gym bag/weekender, it’s nice and roomy and it zips shut. They would raffle off leftover swag/random donations they weren’t sure what else to do with at the quarterly staff meetings; the raffle was a way to get people to come and stay the whole time, since they did the drawing at the end. At one of these I won a Walgreens-branded Herbert Hoover bobblehead. Walgreens was not the employer nor had we partnered with them for anything, so no, I don’t know why they had it, but President Hoover still sits on my kitchen windowsill, bobbling away.

    15. Bee Happy (they/them)*

      I got a very nice backpack (that held a bunch of other swag) during the holiday season and honestly that backpack was my favorite part! It’s more professional-looking than the one I’ve been using for school and it has a lot of pockets. I’ve also gotten some very nice notebooks (faux-leather with pen loops), but since I already had a couple and I go through notebooks slowly I gave them away to people they were well-received with.

    16. New Mom*

      My favorite expensive swag have been sweatshirts, and my favorite cheaper end are big mugs (NOT the small coffee cups, who uses those??) and swag cookies. We had sugar cookies with the company logo and chocolates with the company logo and they were such a hit.

    17. Stuffs*

      “Wine sippy cups” were the most popular item we’ve ever given out.
      I love receiving lip blam.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        We once got a set of “small tumblers.” I had new employees at the time & they asked, “Why is the company handing out Scotch glasses? Are they trying to tell us something?” (Answer: Yes, but they are clueless.)

        They were nice glasses, & I still use mine.

    18. Nicki Name*

      I still use an extra-tall mug that I got two jobs ago.

      When I was last working for a big company, it would hold periodic internal events where different departments were giving out swag. A couple of them had found some vendor that would print logos on sugar cookies– I loved those!

    19. Can't Sit Still*

      I can see a tumbler, 2 water bottles and 2 notebooks from my kitchen table. I’ve also received coffee mugs (ceramic and those blue tin ones), jackets, t-shirts, swim goggles, dry bags, pens (with and without a stylus), mints, sticky notes, hats, wine, a backpack, and a rolling laptop bag.

    20. Recruited Recruiter*

      I live in a hot and dry part of the US. I’m on office staff here, but 82 % of our staff work outside through the worst of the heat. We have company branded evaporative cooling neck wraps. I have never seen swag used so much.

      1. Lizy*

        GENIUS. If I knew the marketing people in my company, I’d totally tell them about this. (We’re really spread out, and I started just before COVID, so I’ve met a handful of people out of the 500+ employees.)

      2. Working for the weekend*

        I got cooling neck wraps from somewhere once and I had zero use for them, threw them in a basket in the hall closet and promptly forgot about them. Following summer, I was cleaning out said hall closet, trying to make room for my daughter’s softball gear (she’s a catcher so we have a LOT of stuff) and came across those towels. She was ecstatic and immediately took them and stuffed them in her bags. Keeps her cool when crouching behind the plate on those hot and humid Midwest summer nights!

        I had a little tape measure on a keychain with my company’s logo on it. I had it for 6 years and it just broke and I nearly cried. Super useful for measuring items in store.

        Other than that, I like solid double wall stainless steel tumblers or coffee mugs (Yeti or off brand, I don’t care as long as it’s good!), golf umbrellas and device chargers/power banks. Anything I can stash away in different cars or give to my tween kids so they won’t steal my stuff. :)

    21. Mayflower*

      I have a great one for you! We do is a $25 Tis Best plastic gift card with our company logo on it. The recipient logs on to their website (tisbest.org) to choose a charity for the $25 to go to. They have a wide selection of charities so everyone can find a cause they care about. It’s especially great for us as our clients are social workers, doctors and nurses, and they are (duly) squeamish about getting gifts that would benefit them personally.

    22. voluptuousfire*

      My old company was more about tshirts and hoodies, so I have a few really good quality hoodies that are awesome in the winter. Two of the tshirts are womens tshirts which are actually cut normally vs. that really slim fit a lot of womens tees are cut. As a plus sized woman, being able to wear a women’s XL that fits vs. a men’s M-XL that might not is great. Too bad they have some bleach stains on them. :(

    23. RC Rascal*

      You are talking to the Queen of Swag! I used to design and order the stuff we gave to customers/sales reps as give aways. Here were the popular ones:

      1) Sunglasses with brightly colored earpieces and company logo; the design was sort of like the old Wayfarers. They only cost a few dollars each and were WILDLY POPULAR.

      2) Consumable items such as lip balm and breath mints with company logo. We also had a hand sanitizer with a carabiner clip that was super popular (pre pandemic).

      3) GIANT lined hooded poncho (think of the kind of thing you might wear to an outdoor football game in inclement weather). They gave them to the guys in the warehouses who are typically large; they used them to unload trucks in the rain.

      (Also–people in sales still go through a lot of business cards. )

    24. Lyudie*

      Seems like now and then we get gift packs of swag, and the occasional item left over from an event or dug out of a storage closet. Mostly pens, a couple of travel mugs (one tastes so horribly of plastic even after washing I won’t use it), mouse pads. I did get a pashmina in the company color at one time, I don’t remember offhand if it was logoed. I think my favorite was actually the mouse pads though, I prefer ones with a harder surface and those seem to be harder to find.

    25. MapleHill*

      I’ve been trying to think of swag to order for interns (many of whom work outdoors) and there are some great suggestions here!

    26. Teapot Repair Technician*

      I could never justify the cost of buying a Yeti cup, but since receiving a company-branded one, I never want to use any other type of travel mug. Yetis are way easier to clean.

      Polo shirts are also nice–makes it easy to conform to the office dress code.

      Company T-shirts, OTOH, go to Goodwill. (The exception being if my employer made one that said, “Team Building Exercise 99”)

      1. JustaTech*

        I sewed a quilt of just a fraction of my husband’s work T-shirts. They stopped with the shirts during COVID, but I’m sure they’ll ramp up again soon and I’ll be able to make another quilt.

    27. Summer Smile*

      I’m a teacher. I’m not certain I would call it “swag.” However, I usually get a free school t-shirt each school year, a free year book, and various presents from students, parents, and the PTO. The most popular gift by far: I have received (not kidding) 60+ mugs, Yeti and Tervis tumblers.

    28. Robin Ellacott*

      I never need another travel mug, fleece top, coffee mug, or flat tote bag in my life, but I like getting the type of things that make you think “great, a spare for my car / emergency kit” like flashlight, multi-tool, folding umbrella, travel pillow/blanket, power bank, etc.. I also once got a good olive oil and balsamic set, complete with dipping bowl, but that’s a very me thing.

      I always thought a set of packing cubes or other travel accessory would be a great swag item. They’re really useful, not everyone has them already, and you wouldn’t care if there was a logo emblazoned on them.

      My favourite was actually notebooks, which didn’t seem exciting at first but had really good quality, smooth paper and I ended up loving them.

    29. often trapped under a cat*

      I once got a branded duffel bag that was a good size for weekend trips and had useful pockets, including at least one that was waterproof. Used it till it fell apart.

      Lots of people have mentioned some of the better things–in the sense that I have actually used them–I’ve received over the years.

      Some others:

      lanyard/badge holder–some of these have been good, some, not so good. I’m using one now that I got at an industry conference a few years ago; the ribbon is small and soft and comfortable even on sweaty days and it’s not so heavy that it makes my neck hurt. And the length is good, because my badge doesn’t hang at breast height.

      eyeglass cleaning cloth (can also be used to clean phone screen)

      small folding umbrella (also got a very expensive umbrella once which lasted 10 years)

      small flashlight

      sewing kit (everyone got them, not just the women)(the case was branded)

      keychain

      One year my then-boss gave everyone a toaster oven.

    30. STG*

      I work in government so there’s no swag. That being said, my partner works in a pretty large company and he is always coming home with different branded gear.

      I think he has at least 20-30 t-shirts that were all branded gear given to him. He’s been there less than two years.

    31. Lizy*

      My favorite still is a mini-office kit. It had mini-mini post-it notes (think half the size of mini-post-its), a mini hole punch, a mini stapler (and staples), paper clips, mini-tape… I think a couple of other things, but I can’t remember. An office-supplies geek’s dream.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I got one of these as a kid and now my son (7) has it. It wasn’t swag, just a random school supply thing, but he is entranced. It has (all mini) scissors, stapler, tape measure, retractable razor, tape, 4″ ruler, and a tiny compartment to hold staples and paperclips.

    32. Tuckerman*

      Some highlights: Temporal artery thermometer (that arrived the day my daughter spiked a high fever), a sturdy bottle opener, ceramic mug, small first aid kit.

    33. Lizy*

      Wine set/case story:

      Now that I’m actually reading the comment and not the first line (ha!) – OldJob did a wine set once, too, for a set of VIPs. It was in a nice mahogany case and not terribly expensive, but cost more than your standard cheapo-swag. It was incredibly popular, but not something that we opted to do again. The vast majority of our event attendees had to fly to attend, and had just a carry-on for luggage. Many people wanted to take it, but opted not to, because they figured it would be confiscated at security. Many who did take it later reported it was confiscated at security. We ended up mailing a lot of them after the fact.

    34. JustaTech*

      One year for Christmas we all got branded rechargeable battery packs, the kind you can plug into the wall to change and then charge your phone off of. A useful gift! (Unlike the ball full of sand “desk toy” that shows the company logo when you flip it one way and a project logo on the other side and generally just sheds superfine sand all over your desk.)

    35. Juneybug*

      My favorite swag was a phone power bank (that was already charged!!). I was able to snag three of them (conference folks were ok with it). Use them all the time!!
      Other favorites –
      Mints
      Lip balm
      Picture frame
      Stress ball or squishy toys
      Good quality pens
      Mini flashlights
      Wind up toys
      Highlighters in various colors
      Notebooks
      Mini tool sets
      When I worked for the state, I use to pick up extra swag to bring back to my co-workers who were unable to attend. Most vendors are cool if you ask if you can take extra swag back to your co-workers. Then laid the surplus on an office table and let the praise roll in for thinking of them. :)

    36. Almost Academic*

      Yep, we have swag giveaways probably around… once a month or so? Usually they connect with different theme months that are being celebrated. Lots of jackets / t-shits / hats / water bottles are typical. My personal favorites were an “Asian cooking” basket with ingredients sourced from local AAPI-owned businesses (sent out for AAPI heritage month) and a cute branded mini speaker that looks like a robot from a partner giveaway.

    37. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      We used to do a lot of swag but mostly stopped about 3 years ago. USB drives — tons of those in all shapes and sizes; squeezy stress toys in ALL the shapes; drinkware (pint glasses, mugs, tumblers), throw blankets; reusable bags; eyeglass kits (microfiber cloth, tiny screwdriver with tiny screws); tiny first aid kits (mostly bandaids and little single use ointment packs); cheap headphones; badge reels; pen/flashlight/stylus combo; and lots of useless “paperweight” type things that have messages/dates etched into them.

    38. Chauncy Gardener*

      Backpacks, messengers bags, sleek down vests, beanbag type cell phone holders and decent ball point pens have been super popular. And logoed polos too

    39. That One Person*

      One of my favorite little ‘swag’ items mum ever came home with was a fly swatter gun. Essentially it was just a dart that had a plastic web to squash bugs, and would be held on this spring-loaded body. Pull the trigger and it shoots off…for however long the string is/was (I may still have it? might’ve been one of my funnier grabs when we moved since anything the movers took never made it to the house). This way you don’t lose the dart, but you can get them pesky fliers. I don’t recall offhand though if it was for her company or someone else at a conference, but definitely been one of the more unique items.

    40. Lunch Ghost*

      My dad’s company has/had stress balls shaped like their products (think large machinery), which I loved as a kid and still think are awesome.

      I know someone who got a pen that looked like a syringe when interviewing for PA schools. Obviously field-specific but it went over great with healthcare workers!

      Pens are my overall favorite if they’re decently durable and write well. I like the MaxGlide a lot, and the Incline Stylus is my favorite ballpoint ever. I’ve also gotten a Yeti tumblr, and some shirts and a jacket (we got our choice of clothing).

    41. Hillary*

      I’m given a lot of swag thanks to the nature of my job. The things I keep:
      – good cooler bags
      – portable phone chargers. I go through a ton because I left them in airplane seatbacks in the before times
      – those colorful plastic sunglasses RC Rascal* mentioned – I have at least three pairs around the house

      The most random one I’ve received was branded hot sauce. Next up is the branded snow globe.

      If the industry has a specific thing those can be great. Many folks in logistics collect branded model trucks and airplanes as an example.

      I have a huge binder of business cards that I still use regularly. I went through 250+ in the first 18 months on my job and I don’t talk to customers.

    42. The New Wanderer*

      My favorite and most used swag has been:
      Golf umbrella
      Fleece vest
      Retractable badge holder
      High quality pint glasses
      Stadium blanket
      Oversized rain jacket lined with fleece
      Insulated lunch bag
      Sturdy, collapsible grocery bag
      Large ceramic coffee mugs
      Themed calendar

    43. Stunt Apple Breeder*

      My favorite swag has been zippered padfolios with little calculators, notepad, and pen inside. I have two from different organizations. Other useful stuff includes a bucket hat with neck flap (I do a lot of work in the field in the summer), a screwdriver set, a pen shaped like an Eppendorf micropipette, and a power bank.

      I have not gotten but would love to get a long-sleeved shirt with UV protection (instead of T shirts or polos), safety/sunglasses (I have a DeWalt pair I wear all the time but need to replace), or a set of company branded masks.

    44. nym*

      Team tote bag! but the GOOD ones, heavy canvas with double-stitched handles. I got a bunch about 15 years ago and then we went to the cheap ones. The cheap ones died in only a few years, but even my good ones are failing at last.

      I never need another mug, tumbler, or water bottle. The little mini-flashlights, screwdriver sets, eyeglasses kits, etc, always find a home in the purse or the car. Also, good pens. I think the key is to make it high-quality stuff at whatever price point you are looking for.

  12. Ann Perkins*

    Did I screw up with this recruiter? I work at something of a franchise of a larger company but my role has lots of interaction with HQ and I’m trying to get a job there working fulltime remote. I applied for a perfect job for me, that was tagged as remote, and got an email from the recruiter asking for a phone call and time availability, but also letting me know this position would eventually be located at HQ.

    I emailed back that I would love to have a call, and though I’m unfortunately not open to relocating, I’d love to get further insight on what to look for with remote work for HQ and how I may fit in working there. It’s been a couple days but I got no response to that and noticed that on the portal my application now says “withdrew”.

    Did I go about this the wrong way by going ahead and mentioning that I’m not open to relocating? I figured it would be rude to not include that in my reply since she mentioned it first for me. I’m not sure if I should go ahead and try to follow up again or just wait for another suitable opportunity and try again later.

    1. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      Yeah, I’d say that you’re probably out of the running. If a requirement of the job is “located at HQ” and you aren’t willing to meet that requirement, they’re not going to move forward with you.

    2. Anonymous Koala*

      I don’t think you screwed up, but I think it’s clear from the recruiter’s non-response and the ‘withdrew’ message that the role you applied for wasn’t actually remote, it was just ‘remote for now’. That recruiter was rude, though.

      2. Just me*

        This. Ideally, the recruiter would have closed the loop (‘Sorry but this job would require you to eventually relocate to HQ. Since you’ve indicated that’s not something you want to do, I’m going to withdraw you application. Sorry for any misunderstanding.’) so, if anything, I considering it more them doing something wrong than you!

    3. New Mom*

      You didn’t screw up at all. You told them something that was a deal breaker for you, and that may not work with this specific company. But now they know for future jobs.

    4. voluptuousfire*

      I’m very surprised the recruiter didn’t at least reach out to close things out. The “withdrew” status is very passive aggressive. You may have lost out, but you didn’t do anything wrong. The recruiter did.

      1. Cj*

        Why is it passive-aggressive? If you say something is a deal breaker for you, what else would you call it?

        1. Stitching Away*

          Because the recruiter didn’t communicate with them in any way. They only found out by checking the application status.

    5. animaniactoo*

      You didn’t screw up. The thing is that the recruiter was reaching out about a specific role with specific requirements. You indicated (correctly) that you would not be able to fulfill one of the requirements. They, correctly, took that as a withdrawal for that specific role.

      It would be great if they were up for a touchbase about what other roles might be available for remote work at HQ in future, but you put the request out there and they didn’t pick it up. That’s not a screw up, it’s just something that didn’t pan out.

      At this point, I would wait for another suitable opportunity and try again then.

      1. RagingADHD*

        I agree. Everything here worked the way it was supposed to. HR clarified that the role was not actually permanent remote and you replied that therefore, you couldn’t pursue it.

        This wasn’t a negotiation. It was just clarification.

        They probably haven’t responded with info about remote jobs because they aren’t hiring for any.

        1. Ann Perkins*

          Part of my confusion and frustration is that about 1/3 of the open job listings are tagged as remote. Even pre-covid they had employees here and there who were fulltime WFH even though it’s not the company norm.

          1. RagingADHD*

            Then I’d assume they are all similar to this – temporarily remote, or they want local people who could come in if asked.

            There are a lot of companies who are willing to allow some employees to WFH, but aren’t willing to build it into the job description or hire for long distance remote.

          2. tamarack and fireweed*

            Yeah, I think it’s at least a little uncouth and abrupt, if not rude. The company hires on fully remote positions. You’re interested in a fully remote position. So even if *this* position is not destined to be for you, a good recruiter would I think make sure to remain on a “oh, well, not this time, but let’s stay in touch” terms with you.

          3. Stitching Away*

            It’s driving me up a wall how inconsistently jobs are marked as remote! I found a bunch the other day on linkedin marked remote that were shipboard positions for a cruise line.

            I mean, ok, you’ll be remote, but that’s not what that filter means!

    6. A Ladrona*

      Seems to me you did nothing wrong and if anything the recruiter should have been more professional. For what it’s worth, I’m seeing a lot of “Fully Remote” postings that aren’t (one even mentioned lifting 25 pounds and I wondered if I was supposed to do that in my living room!). So something to be mindful of or maybe even confirm early on, to avoid confusion and wasting your time. But the recruiter should have had more class (but sadly it’s almost more common than people behaving professionally).

  13. Mental Lentil*

    Poll regarding rejecting job applicants:

    As a job applicant, if you get rejected for a job, how do you feel about hearing “We’ll keep your resume on file…”? Is this a good thing for you? Or do you just view it as boilerplate language?

    And if you’re a hiring manager, have you ever interviewed (or re-interviewed) or hired someone whose resume you’ve kept on file?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve never found a situation in which an employer said they would keep a résumé on file and then later reached out to me or anyone I know with “Hey, you applied for this position before, and we now have something good for you.” Résumés change years later anyway, so the applicant would have to resubmit the revised version. I would leave it out of any boilerplate rejection.

      Likewise, when I’ve been on the hiring side, I’ve never “kept a résumé on file” and then called someone back for another position.

      1. sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*

        Actually, I did have an employer keep my resume on file and reach out a year later. Mind you, this was in the mid-90s and it hasn’t happened since. I was quite pleased to go and try again for a job.

        In 2010, I had a departing manager show me his files that he had tidied up before leaving, including a folder full of kept resumes, because they were good candidates but not hired. His replacement promptly tossed them (citing they were getting old).

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Does an employer need to tell you “We’ll keep your résumé on file,” though? They could have not said that and then reached out to you a year later anyway.

          1. sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*

            True. It’s been so long I’m not sure they said “We’ll keep it…”

            Whenever I heard that line it was usually followed by a time period, usually six months.

      2. Anonymous Koala*

        This actually did happen to me – I was passed over by one hiring manager but got invited to interview for roles with two other teams a few months later. I didn’t do the interviews (I had accepted something else) but it was nice to know they thought I was a good fit, and I felt really good about the experience, like they valued my time and didn’t want to waste it by making me jump the same initial HR hoops again.

      3. Mayflower*

        My husband did get called back a year after another candidate was chosen over him for a job. So it does happen.

      4. GrooveBat*

        I have most definitely reached out to people whose resumes were “on file” when a more appropriate job came up.

      5. Here we go again*

        I actually did but it was more me rejecting their offer because they wouldn’t work with the schedule I wanted. They asked if they could reach out in a couple months when the opened new locations, I said yes because I knew I was going to loose my job soon but still had other doors open to me. They reached out and still wasn’t what I wanted.

      6. Sleeping Late Every Day*

        The best two jobs I had, I was not the first choice. For whatever reason, the person’s hired did not stay long, the second choice was no longer available, so I got the jobs. I have no idea if something longer than a month or so would have called for a new round of applicants, though. I do remember department heads occasionally mentioning past candidates for open positions, but I don’t know if they reached out or the person applied again on their own.

    2. Beancat*

      Applicant side: I take it as boilerplate language. It’s nice if they actually do it, but I don’t place expectations on them doing so.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yep, I take it as boilerplate language. If the recruiter actually means it, then they give me their direct email and tell me to contact them if there is another job that interests me.

      2. Elle Woods*

        Same. I take it as a “thanks, but no thanks” kind of thing and don’t expect to hear from them in the future.

        2. Fran Fine*

          I thought this as well until a now-former employer contacted me seven months after ghosting me after I submitted a writing sample and had an initial HR screen. I had applied for a trainee position, but so did 200+ others, and by the time I had sent all my materials in, the hiring manager was overwhelmed with other interviews and decided to close the window on other applicants for that round. Another trainee round was beginning at the end of the year, though, so she had HR reach back out to me to see if I was still interested. I was, I interviewed with the full hiring panel, and I got the job.

          I also applied to a job a little over two years ago, but they were resistant to full time WFH, so I went with my current company since the role they advertised was permanently WFH to begin with. Well, that company just reached out to me couple months ago to see if I wanted to interview for a similar role. I said no because they’re still resistant to WFH, and I’m not leaving my cushy remote job to go back to anyone’s office, especially not during a pandemic.

          So it does occasionally happen.

    3. Alldogsarepuppies*

      I presume my resume will be put in a file somewhere but never looked at so its “technically true” but meaningless.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      I actually had the HR department of my at-the-time employer pull my resume out of their files because they were looking for someone with certain skills. But otherwise, this just reminds me of an old Saturday Night Live skit where people took that statement and other banal pleasantries seriously. “He doesn’t want to go out with me, but he likes me as a friend!” “Oh, that’s awesome – once you start hanging out as friends, he’s bound to fall in love with you!” Etc.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      My resume was once passed around a company by the head recruiter. Him, I believed when he said he was keeping my resume on file. From a hiring manager, it only works if it’s really sincere: “We really liked you and we hope we can reach out if there are other opportunities.” I’ve been interviewed, rejected, and referred elsewhere by hiring managers (I got started in my current career that way) so it does happen, but it takes effort.

    6. Artemesia*

      It is utterly meaningless boilerplate. If you want to work at that company keep an eye out for other postings and apply again — even if you are perfect they will not be looking at ‘resumes on file.’ The exception would be if they kept in touch in some way — I know someone who was invited to the Holiday party and was offered a part time contract for a project — she was eventually hired full time rose to COO and was there long after the person they hired originally instead of her had left. But unless there is some action like ‘call us next week as we may have another opportunity’. or some such, the phrase not only means nothing — it isn’t true — they won’t keep your resume on file.

    7. CatCat*

      I take it as meaningless boilerplate. I mean, if they reach out in the future, great, but that is pretty rare and I don’t county on it. I’ve only had it happen once. A few months after a rejection, an employer I had interviewed with contacted me to encourage me to apply for another opening. But by then, I had moved on and was soon to start a job elsewhere.

    8. Littorally*

      I really have no opinion on it, as a job applicant. I assume they tell that to everyone as a softener, but I don’t feel like I’m being mocked or otherwise strung along with it. Just, oh, that’s letting me down a little easy.

    9. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      As a job applicant, if you get rejected for a job, how do you feel about hearing “We’ll keep your resume on file…”? Is this a good thing for you? Or do you just view it as boilerplate language?

      Pure fluff and politeness.

    10. OtterB*

      I would say it’s mostly boilerplate. But, once some years ago I was the project leader for a team that was hiring. We ended up with two strong candidates, split hairs, and hired one. A few months later we had another opening, went back to the other candidate, and hired him too. I have no idea if our rejection letter said we would keep his resume on file.

      1. Lyudie*

        I had something similar to this, it came down to me and someone else. They hired the other person, but a year later they had another opening and called me in for another interview and I got the job. I wouldn’t put a lot of stock into it but sometimes things do come of it.

    11. Double A*

      I take it as meaningless boilerplate, but I also take it as the employer saying you submitted a solid application that they actually took a look at. I don’t know if they actually differentiate responses, but I like to think truly terrible applications don’t get the softening language.

    12. Recruited Recruiter*

      This year, I have had a certain employer tell me that they’d keep my resume on file, and I wish they hadn’t. They have contacted me for 4 positions since the one they turned me down for, and are not taking “I have accepted another position and am happy with it” for an answer.

      When I was recruiting for my previous employer, that was boilerplate language we used for everyone who wasn’t a bad applicant, but we hired a better candidate for a position. We ghosted the bad candidates. If a candidate had an especially bad interview, we used different language – “thank you for your time, we have decided to pursue another candidate.” Essentially, we used that as a “feel free to apply again” message.

      1. Recruited Recruiter*

        Hit submit early.

        I used this sincerely and meant it on two candidates who were fabulous, but we hired an equally fabulous candidate before we managed to schedule interviews. Both of them, I actually contacted when a comparable position opened up. Both had also already accepted another job.

    13. Msnotmrs*

      I kind of always thought it was BS until recently, when a recruiter actually CC’d a couple of people and said they were actively looking for other opportunities for me. We’ll see if anything actually comes of it, though. Every other time, I’ve always assumed it’s boilerplate.

    14. Caboose*

      I assume that it’s a general nicety and that I will never hear from them again, especially if I didn’t interview at all. If I did have an interview that went sort-of-okay, but wasn’t good enough to get the job, then I might have higher hopes, but for the most part, it’s just one of those little boilerplate condolences to soften the blow of rejection.

    15. Anonymous Hippo*

      100% would think that was boilerplate. Now, if they said something like, we may have something coming up in a few months that might be good for you, so I’ll keep your file and reach out to you when we know more, that might be something (although you’d still view it the same as any other application, don’t hang your hopes on it) but at least you’d know they thought you’d be worthy hiring in some role.

    16. Wisteria*

      As an applicant, I assume it’s a pro-forma response. If they do come back and ask me to apply to something else, great. I don’t discount the possibility. But I don’t sit around checking my inbox for an email, either.

    17. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Hearing “we’ll keep your resume on file” is meaningless boilerplate and I have no feelings about it. However, hearing directly from the hiring manager that they appreciated meeting me and will keep me in mind for future opportunities is always nice. I actually just got an email from a HM who I was a final candidate with a couple months ago letting me know about a new position. My husband actually got his job when the HM for a different position that he didn’t get called him back to ask him to apply. So it does happen!

    18. Mannheim Steamroller*

      I got that reply in the late 1990s when I applied for an Assistant Llama Groomer job. They kept me on file for a few months and offered me Assistant Alpaca Groomer. Worked out wonderfully.

    19. Alexis Rosay*

      I got my first ‘real’ job because someone kept my resume on file and reached out to invite me to apply when they had a more appropriate opening! However rare, it definitely can happen.

      As a hiring manager, I have personally kept people’s resumes on file and reached out to them about other work, but it rarely works out as they’ve usually moved on to something else.

    20. RagingADHD*

      I mean, it’s not bad, but I’ve never paid any attention to it. It’s just polite noise.

      If I see a listing for another job I want there, I’m going to re-apply anyway. I can count on one hand the number of people I’ve heard of being hired “out of the drawer,” and that’s only when they got to final interviews the first time, or had incredibly specialized skills.

    21. Hiring Manager*

      I was just hiring for a position, and one of my first steps was to review the resumes I got when I was last hiring for this type of position maybe 2 or 3 years ago. I didn’t contact everyone, but I did contact one or two strong candidates and invite them to apply, if still interested. I also did seriously keep people’s resumes on file as potential contractors if we had freelance opportunities that fit with their skillset in the interim, and I would use that list.

      And I didn’t include that boilerplate in rejections for anyone where I really didn’t mean it / think they were qualified. Just one data point for you that it’s not always a fluff statement!

    22. NoLongerYoung*

      I did have success with having the recruiter contact me from PossibleNewCompany (big and old line) about PossibleNewJob3, after I made it to the last round of PossibleNewJob1 & 2, and did not get selected. I’ve been in their system crawling along for about 5 months.
      I keep my search active though, and apply online for the VERY specific ones I’m interested in, and follow Allison’s advice (Targeted cover letter, and actually making sure my resume uses the correct key words for the position I’m applying for… I have a broad history).
      As it turns out, I hope to be in the Friday good news soon – but not for this specific company.

    23. tamarack and fireweed*

      How I feel as an applicant: I guard myself from reading anything more than boilerplate into it. Though I *have* recently (three times!) been rejected & received feedback how I was a strong candidate. And in each case I could see why they took the other person over me, even when I think I could have done a very good job in two out of the three times. (In the third case the feedback was “your application was very strong, but we really were specifically looking for someone with a background in sub-sub-discipline X” [which is close enough to mine for me to be confident to learn it quickly, but have no experience in as of now].) And in fact for one of the jobs that rejected me the team had a second position open with dual reporting to my current boss and the manager of the other team, for which the selected candidate didn’t accept the offer. So they re-jiggered the job description, and are giving the part of the project that overlaps with my skillset to me. (Externally funded research – all positions are temporary, but this is basically a contract extension for me.)

      When I recruited in the private industry, we have on occasion dipped back into recently interviewed candidates. It could easily happen that we had two strong candidates & went with one (eg. the one who also spoke French in addition to their tech background), and then suddenly a month or two later we have an urgent need to fill a position that the second-place finisher of the last round suddenly looks like a good fit (e.g. they had Spanish as an additional language and we just won a large Spanish client). Usually it didn’t quite come to an official rejection – with delays and waiting to reject until the winner is actually just about in their seat, to the candidates it looked more like “we figured out we could hire two after all”.

      1. tamarack and fireweed*

        (I just realize – the cases I’m thinking of are the ones where the second-place finisher is someone as extremely appealing except for one particular key skill where there was another candidate that had the edge. As in “I would have loved to get X on my team, but we need someone who can use the Panasonic Teapot Painter Robot A-364, and Y is already fully trained up on that – and otherwise seems like a perfectly adequate employee. So we’ll offer it to Y, sigh.”

    24. fhqwhgads*

      It depends. If someone says it and sounds sincere (and in fact is sincere), it’s a good thing. I wouldn’t automatically assume it’s boilerplate, but if it’s said in a way that seems boilerplate, I would take it with a grain of salt.
      If you’re asking because you’re deciding whether to say it, only say it if you actually mean it. If you’re concerned people will assume you don’t actually mean it, that’s not really something you can control.
      My team has definitely encouraged someone to reapply who wasn’t the best candidate for what they applied for but was a better fit for a slightly different position that didn’t open up until later.

    25. Lisa*

      It could mean that literally their recruiting system keeps resumes on file by default if they don’t stamp you Do Not Hire. I was trying to hire a tricky role and HR specifically asked me to look through the database of past applicants to see if there was anyone (there wasn’t) and then later they reached out to me with a candidate who had been rejected by another department but was a better fit for my role. I hired him and it worked out very well. In that case it was right away, but could theoretically have been some time after his first application.

    26. learnedthehardway*

      I just did this the other day – the person wasn’t a fit for one role, but was a fit for another one. It does happen.

    27. HA2*

      As a job applicant, I’d just treat it as boilerplate. I’d interpret it as “we’re rejecting you now, but we’re not blackballing you”. I’ve never had a call back from someplace that “kept my resume on file”, and nor would I really expect one.

      Boilerplate does have a reason, though, and that’s seems like fine thing to communicate – “you weren’t the best applicant this time, but please feel free to apply again in the future to other positions here if there’s a good fit.”

    28. allathian*

      My manager hired one person for a permanent position. A couple weeks later, a fixed-term position opened up, and my manager was able to reach out to the second finalist to the first job and ask if they were interested in working for us. If it had been another permanent position, it’s possible that my employer would have had to post the job again. This person was so great that my manager didn’t want to lose them and was able to create a permanent position for them so they’d stay with us.

    29. SummerBreeze*

      I got my dream job a full year after I’d interviewed for a different role at the company. HR told me they truly did keep me on file and called me when this role opened. Spent 14 years there!

  14. Sabine*

    I just started a new job and am really struggling to engage in meetings because everything is remote. I thought my zoom fatigue would reset after a week off from my old job but I can feel myself tuning out even as I try to focus and take notes. I have a lot to absorb and want to make a good first impression–does anyone who has done remote onboarding have tips on what helped them have a successful first month on the job?

    1. Anonymous Koala*

      Cameras help! And finding a formal or informal peer mentor if it’s feasible for your role/org (you can ask your boss for help with this). I find that if I have someone to ask questions of/digest the meeting with later, I focus more on the initial meeting, especially with the really big overwhelming ones.

      That said, sometimes it’s best to do what you can in the meeting, and use the slides or recordings (if they offer them) to refresh your notes later when you can go at your own pace.

    2. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      Echoing the above. I have onboarded a few new employees remotely and making sure they are connecting with team members as well as me has been key. Ask you manager about who the best person is to answer questions on some key areas (institutional memory, project work, client relationships etc.) and set up phone calls with those people. Having them fill in the blanks on the stuff that is working knowledge for everyone else will help with meetings that are already a cognitive overload just by virtue of your being new.

    3. Lisa*

      Not exactly this situation but as a consultant I started working remotely last year with a team that included someone I knew well but hadn’t *worked* with in almost ten years, and several other people I had never met at all. I was also not used to doing a lot of video calls. Some things that helped me were setting up my video situation so that I felt comfortable and confident on camera, having 1:1 calls, both video and audio-only, with some of my team members, and using Teams and WhatsApp chat to carry on conversations between meetings to build rapport. I also went overboard on note-taking early on, and used dual displays so I could have a video call up on one screen and type notes on the other.

  15. Beancat*

    I’ve asked for a lot of thoughts lately, so I thought I would update! I had my review this week, and despite my horrendous nerves about everything I actually received a very generous raise!! I also got a solid answer about the future of our business and know where things are going for the foreseeable future. I feel a lot better after a stressful last few weeks :)

  16. Joy*

    I am starting a new job soon and I want to be incredibly organized, unlike I’ve been in the last few years of my current job. What systems or web-based apps do you use to keep your to-do lists, notes, and contacts organized? I need to absolutely knock this next job out of the park, and I’m so excited to start back at zero emails and an empty to-do list. But it will accelerate quickly, so your simple tips for staying on top of everything will be greatly appreciated.

    1. mreasy*

      I have had success with Asana, but now I use Trello and prefer it. I am also ruthless about putting EVERYTHING in my calendar which is always with me, either phone or computer.

      1. Elle Woods*

        I second Trello. I’m more of a paper person myself but Trello is the one exception to that. It really helps me manage projects.

    2. Gail Davidson-Durst*

      For work, I capture using OneNote – it’s unfussy and cloud-based so I know stuff is SAVED. It’s also easy to mark something with a “to do” checkbox. So I have all my meeting notes, ideas, and task captures where I can refer back if needed. Then once a week I do a “clear to neutral” where I plug all the to-dos into Asana, schedule some corresponding focus blocks/work sessions on my calendar for the next week, and set myself up for the next week. One nice thing is to put links, attachments, and notes in the Asana task so you have everything you need to start substantive work right there.

      For personal life, Remember The Milk is my external memory storage. To-dos, recurring chores, notes of things to discuss with my therapist, lists of gift ideas for me and family members, lists of movies and shows I want to check out, etc. Anything I want to remember someday gets logged, dated (if relevant), and tagged appropriately.

      For both sides of my life, I try to tidy email daily and clear to zero weekly, and I don’t use folders. If it needs action, I put it in my to-do tool, and if it’s garbage or reference, it goes into my “done” folder where I can search for it by keyword if needed.

      1. Anonymous Koala*

        I second OneNote! I love how it automatically saves, timestamps, and captures urls. I have a notebook for meetings where I keep notes from every meeting or phone call I’m in, and I use those notes to write update emails to my boss and make to do lists.
        I also really like Trello for repeating projects or large tasks that have clear steps – I make a board with lists for all the steps in the project, then advance cards through the lists as I complete steps. It’s really satisfying and enables me to bulk-work on the same task for many projects at a time.

      2. A Simple Narwhal*

        Adding my vote for onenote. I use it for a lot of things, but I also keep a notebook just for my to-do list. I have three lists on the page – Working On Today, Waiting on Someone Else, Things for the Future. Things I’m working on go in the first list, projects I’ve done my part on and need someone else’s input go in the second, things I need/want to work on but aren’t a priority for today go in the third. Once something is completely finished I cross it out (slash-through font). Each day I duplicate the previous day’s page, update the date, delete all the the slashed out items, and then I’ve got my to-do list! I collapse each day’s page under a month page so it everything looks neat and doesn’t take up too much space.

        OneNote has a lot of great features but does require some setup on your part, but once you’ve got it down it’s really great.

      3. Flower necklace*

        OneNote is great! I like taking notes by hand, so I have a Rocketbook that syncs with mine. Any time I need to reference something from a meeting, I can pull it up in a second on my phone. I also keep my personal notes on it, like notes from doctor’s visits, crochet patterns, recipes, my grocery list. Everything. It’s all on hand for easy reference.

    3. CatCat*

      I use a whiteboard kanban style. I have the following 5 columns:
      – To do (these are things I haven’t started yet)
      – Today (things I am working on today)
      – In Progress (things I have started, but am not working on today)
      – Waiting (things I have started, but I am waiting on someone else before I can progress)
      – Done (completed items, I make a log of these every month and then clear the column)

      I also have a small square at the bottom with “Travel” to remind me of any upcoming meetings or events I need to travel for (haven’t used that space in 18 months!)

      I use small sticky notes to write what the projects are and then move them around on the white board so I have a constant big picture of where everything is.

      I make a daily checklist of things to get done that day based on where things are on the whiteboard. So if “Project X” is in the “Today” column, I write down tasks on my checklist that I need to work on for Project X.

      This system has really helped keep me well organized. There are online resources that will let you create this type of board, but having the physical whiteboard works best for me.

    4. SurlyGirl*

      Second Trello using CatCat’s kanban style. My columns are nearly identical to theirs.

    5. Policy Wonk*

      In addition to on-line tools, I still keep an old-school notebook with a list of “must-do today” items. (In addition to work, this can include personal things like pick up the dry cleaning or hit the grocery store for that forgotten item.) I rely on the electronic reminders to keep me on track, but the notebook is a handy, at-a-glance reality check and has saved me more than once.

    6. Diatryma*

      I’m the opposite of a lot of people; I need to see things to remember them. I have a lot of success with post-its for individual cases that can be moved to different parts of a board (in one case, a sheet of paper on the bottom of an inch-deep drawer/slide-out tray) as necessary. I’ve also made flip-cards for tasks that have multiple steps.

    7. Cookie D'oh*

      I use the Sticky Notes app on my computer for my to do list. My list is often changing and sometimes I need to track technical details, so it’s easier for me to type than write it down on a piece of paper. For notes, I use OneNote.

      I have tons of folders to keep my email organized. I have a “Waiting for Response” folder to keep track of messages where I need to follow up with a response from someone.

      We use Teams and I communicate a lot more through chat now. If I have action item come out of a chat, I make sure to immediately put it on my to do list so I don’t lose it.

    8. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I like using the tasks & tracking embedded in the office email system, combined with a desktop blotter-calendar for hard deadlines, and a paper notebook for project notes.

    9. Distracted Librarian*

      I use Outlook for task management, because I’m in it so much for email and calendaring, so my tasks will be in my face. I use OneNote for notetaking. It integrates with Outlook for meeting notes, which I find really useful.

  17. Tech and remote*

    Anyone in tech hear anything about how top tech companies digging in and demanding on-site work is shaking out? Are they still sticking with that, even amidst delta variant concerns? Will they ever become more flexible, overall? Is it affecting hiring?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      My company has always said we’d go back but be more hybrid (going in only 1-3 times a week), and they haven’t wavered in that—just kept pushing back the when-we-go-back date.

      1. FAANG*

        I’m at one of the FAANG companies, and it is the same — sticking to the hybrid model, just pushing back the go-back date. No impact on hiring that I am aware of.

    2. HA2*

      My company pushed back reopening plans. It’s clear that the timeline for returning to the office is very flexible and they’ll keep pushing it out as long as they need to – but also seems just as clear that they intend for everyone to return to the office eventually, and are not planning on supporting fully remote work outside of special cases.

  18. Interesting Charity Schema*

    One of my company’s vendors sent an email detailing their charity efforts, and the logistics of the mechanism gave me pause. It doesn’t impact me in any way, but was curious about how the AAM commentors viewed it too.

    Basically, for every dollar they pay in salary to a white man, they put 25 cents towards their charity program. I’m wondering how they keep from introducing bias in their hiring practices.

    For example, hiring a white man actually costs 1.25 times what it would cost to hire someone outside that demographic, which might tip the scale away from hiring them, or put them first to go in the event of a layoff. Conversely, hiring more white men means more money goes to the charity effort (yay for charity [and maybe tax breaks?]) so it might actually enforce the preference towards white men in hiring.

    I’m not well-versed in laws surrounding protected classes or best practices in charity, but I’d be interested in opinions of those that are, in addition to general reactions.

    2. have we met?*

      General reaction – whaaaaaaat?

      Are they making real efforts to hire from a more diverse pool or just throwing money at a problem so they don’t have to try to solve it? Is this an odd way of making “amends”? And is the charity related to remedying race- or gender bias? I am not a white man, but I think I would feel just as weird about this if I were.

      1. Fran Fine*

        Are they making real efforts to hire from a more diverse pool or just throwing money at a problem so they don’t have to try to solve it?

        More likely the latter.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      I don’t know how exactly it all shakes out, but donations are tax deductible and I’ve been told that anything donated is pretty much directly saved in taxes. So donating the money isn’t really a burden to the organization because it balances out in the end.

      1. Jasmine*

        So all they’re really doing is paying money to a charity instead of the government (via taxes) for every white man on payroll? Sounds like someone well-intentioned has misunderstood the assignment.

        1. Ikora Rey*

          Trust me when I say to you that their financial advisors did not misunderstand this at all.

          1. Observer*

            I would hope not. Which is why I’m pretty sure that they didn’t do it to divert money from taxes. Because the one who seems to have misunderstood is @AndersonDarling informant.

      2. Mayflower*

        That’s not true! When something is tax-deductible, tax savings is significantly less than the entire donation.

        Example: you earn $200 and your tax rate is 30%. If you do not have any charitable donations, you will pay $60 in taxes [30% of $200] so you’d be left with $140. If you donate $100 to charity, you will pay $30 in taxes [30% of $200 – $100] so you’d be left with $70.

      3. Observer*

        I’ve been told that anything donated is pretty much directly saved in taxes

        That’s actually highly unlikely. And there is always a cost to doing stuff like this, so it can actually be a burden.

      4. Dancing Otter*

        Corporate tax rate would have to be 100% (which of course it isn’t) for any deduction to result in a dollar-for-dollar savings.
        I don’t know what their ultimate rationale may be, but this is definitely costing them real money, not just moving it around the income statement.

    4. Dust Bunny*

      What.

      I’m with have we met? This sounds like throwing money at a problem instead of solving it.

    5. Littorally*

      That is really bizarre. If they want to make a charity donation just make the gd charity donation and don’t be weird about it.

    6. StressedButOkay*

      That is such a convoluted “solution” to the wage gap issue…just pay everyone the same based on skill, etc,! The company clearly knows there’s a problem with the pay scale (in general and what they’re paying) but instead of fixing it internally, they’re jumping through hoops to try to look like they’re fixing it AND getting a tax break at the same time.

      1. Mayflower*

        Tax savings from charitable deductions are significantly less than the donation amount!

        Lately, I am seeing a lot of outrage online re. charitable donations – specifically how they are self-serving to the individual/company because they are tax-deductible – and it really sticks in my craw. With all the bad in the world, do we really need to heap criticism on the generosity of individuals and corporations who choose to voluntarily give away the money that they could easily keep?

    7. Bagpuss*

      That seems weird. I mean, if they are worried about inequality I’d want to know what they’ve done to ensure that their POC and female employees are being properly remunerated , and that if they are making donations to charities geared towards under-privaledged groups why link it so specifically to their white male workforce ?

    8. The New Wanderer*

      That sounds very poorly thought out. The charity effort should be separate from any DEI effort the company makes. This weird setup comes across as punitive, needlessly confusing, and probably won’t have the halo effect they expect. What’s wrong with straight up increasing corporate sponsorship of HBCU programs, funding charities assisting indigenous populations, and so on?

    10. PNW Labrat*

      Plus do the charities they are supporting have anything to do with supporting education/employment of minority groups or are even somewhat related to minority groups?

    11. learnedthehardway*

      This is a fascinating idea – I work with some companies that are focusing on diversity, and the challenge is to ensure there is a diverse slate of candidates in hiring decisions, without going too far to the side of not considering good candidates simply because they aren’t diverse. One of my clients ties some executive compensation to achieving diversity goals, and this isn’t always perfectly aligned with business needs (ie. some managers with hire a less qualified candidate than ideal simply to maintain their bonuses) or good performance management (eg. if there simply are no qualified, diverse candidates in a geography, is it fair to downgrade a hiring manager’s performance in comparison to another hiring manager whose geography is well supplied with qualified, diverse candidates?)

      Using a cost multiplier for non-diverse hires would still put the decision in the hiring manager’s hands, but – as long as they have to pay for the cost of hiring out of their departmental budget – they would have to be satisfied that the cost is merited by the value the employee will bring to the department. And presumably the cost would not come out of the hired candidate’s salary, because the salary would have to be competitive enough to attract them.

      Honestly – I’m going to suggest it to one of my clients. They’re making their hiring managers do business cases for why they can’t hire diverse candidates right now, and it’s time consuming and risks losing both diverse and non-diverse candidates, introducing decision making by people who don’t understand the department needs, and generally making the process inefficient.

      1. learnedthehardway*

        ETA – this idea depends on the hiring manager’s budget being affected, and not being able to claim any tax deduction / repayment.

    12. HA2*

      That sounds really weird, but doesn’t necessarily affect hiring as long as the budgets aren’t common. If there’s a marketing department that just contributes X amount of money to charities based on the demographics of their workforce, that’s not going to influence a hiring manager’s own budget. A bit gimmicky. I’d be worried that it means they don’t really know what they’re doing with respect to inclusion/diversity in their company and are trying to throw money at something visible to affect perceptions.

  19. GirllGoesAbroad*

    Update here- I posted last week about an extended trip I had proposed to my employer to Germany as I was traveling there a lot for work. I posted because my employer didn’t want to cover any expenses(my request was rightly misunderstood) and I wasn’t sure how to approach it.

    Just this week, my company has decided to push back our return to office (originally was scheduled for Mid-Sept) so I told my boss this wasn’t the best time and maybe we could re-visit in the Spring(fingers crossed things are under control by then). Given the back and forth, I didn’t see anyway the firm would be willing to cover expenses with the unpredictableness and thought I’d have a much better shot(and the experience being better overall) once things are back to normal.

    That being said, thank you so much to everyone who gave advice. I have the script I wrote out(but didn’t need to use) saved in my folder and 100% plan on using it when I re-approach with my boss at a later date.

    1. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Thanks for the update and glad it has worked out for now! It was a very interesting thread last week.

    2. New Mom*

      Thanks for the update! And fingers crossed you can go to Germany later and they will pay for it. Remember, you should not be paying for a work trip just because you are going somewhere you want to go.

    3. Double A*

      Thanks for the update! When you revisit it in Spring hopefully you can take what you learned this time and clarify the business expenses and hopefully they’ll pay for it!

  20. McMurdo*

    Office supply question: I have a medical issue that means the only painkiller I can take is Tylenol. I realized the other day when I had a headache that the admin assistant usually orders Aleve and Advil. Is it reasonable to ask if Tylenol could be added/swapped in on the next order? Or is this the kind of thing I should bring myself?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      If there’s an expectation that OTC pain meds are available to everyone, then yes, you can ask for Tylenol to be included. But if you’re asking the admin if she has anything and she only offers those two, you should bring your own.

      I would err on bringing my own anyway, to be honest. I’ve only been in one office that had a random bottle of Advil around– usually this is stuff that’s not provided.

      1. McMurdo*

        There are single-serve packets in the breakroom! This is the first job I’ve had where anything like that was provided.

        1. MissCoco*

          Well that’s a nifty perk!
          I think you can definitely ask that Tylenol be swapped in for one of the others then. There are plenty of medical conditions or other medications that contraindicate NSAID use, not to mention people who just find acetaminophen more effective for certain types of pain.

          Who knows if it’ll be feasible, but I can’t see any harm in making a courteous request.

        2. Irish girl*

          I would go that this is reasonable. Pregnant women can only take Tylenol which would a good reason to include it. Don’t want to discriminate against them. : )

    2. Beancat*

      I don’t think that’s an unreasonable ask considering that your medical issue isn’t uncommon, but I also generally bring in my own medication because I have felt like I couldn’t ask at the places I’ve worked in the past. I buy travel bottles and then refill them at home.

    4. Mental Lentil*

      This is a completely reasonable request. Tylenol is a completely different compound than the other two, and they are not entirely interchangeable. I try to have both available in our office.

    5. A Simple Narwhal*

      I don’t think it can hurt to ask if they could add Tylenol as an option! But also maybe keep a bottle in your desk just so you know you’re always covered.

    6. Nuthinbutcarrots*

      Either way would be acceptable I think! If you have a good company culture your coworkers won’t mind stocking something so small and simple to keep you from being in pain!

    7. mediamaven*

      I would just bring your own. The Advil is a nice to have but it’s ultimately not your employers responsibility to provide a painkiller to meet everyone’s needs. Presumably you have some so just bring it in.

      1. Observer*

        I don’t get this. If the employer is open to ordering, why not ASK? The company obviously wants to do something helpful. This is a very simple and inexpensive way to be even more helpful.

    8. Cookie D'oh*

      I’ve never been in an office where medication was available so I’ve kept my own at my desk. I keep Aleve in my purse at all times, so I have that, but I also kept a bottle in my desk drawer along with Tums and some bandages

    9. Yellow*

      I order supplies for my office, and typically only order Advil. I would have no issue ordering Tylenol as well, if someone asked. Frankly, I think tylenol is worthless, so never even considered ordering it before, but now that you brought this up, I’ll add some to my next order!

      1. James*

        The two medications attack pain in different ways. So certain pains respond better to one, others to the other. My wife and I keep both on hand.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Incidentally at the time I got covid vaccine #2, I was told to avoid painkillers, but a low dose of Tylenol if I had a strong reaction. So if vaccination is still ongoing in your area, there’s that to think about.

      3. Sleeping Late Every Day*

        Some people have conditions that make Tylenol their only option. I’m in that category, and Tylenol is not nearly as effective as NSAIDs, but it’s slightly better than nothing.

        1. Stitching Away*

          There are a not insignificant number of people who are flat out allergic to NSAIDs, for example, plus anyone with a history of ulcers cannot have them.

          Wow do I miss NSAIDs…

    11. Girasol*

      Buy a giant economy bottle and tell the team that anyone who wants can come get some. A bottle of pain killers is better than a candy jar improving workplace relationships.

    12. Observer*

      Is it reasonable to ask if Tylenol could be added/swapped in on the next order?

      If they are doing basic painkillers, of course they should have Tylenol there. I do better with Advil, so I wouldn’t want to SWAP it, but I see no reason why the two items are mutually exclusive in terms of ordering.

    13. Choggy*

      Yes, we have a nice medicine box that covers all the various OTC meds, if they offer this, then they can probably extend it a bit to others. Though what ultimately happens is that the meds expire if not used, and perhaps not replaced in a timely manner. I tend to bring my own so I know it’s always available.

    14. James*

      I do both. I get migraines, so I carry pain meds in my laptop bag, and a group of us requested our favorite brand be kept in the medical supplies. This is one of those things where a support group really is useful; it’s one thing for someone to say “I want X”, it’s another thing entirely to have a group come up and say “We all have X issue, let’s make Y medication available”.

  21. AvonLady Barksdale*

    PSA: please proofread and test your OOO messages. Make sure you spell your colleagues’ names correctly. Your colleagues and contacts will thank you!

    2. Policy Wonk*

      And make sure they will actually be available when you are out. I hate getting a loop of OOO messages that circle around a group of people who are ALL out!

    3. Cookie D'oh*

      I always send an email to myself to make sure the OOO message looks good. I use the same template and just change the dates, and I’ve caught some date errors before. Like Thursday July 23rd instead of Friday July 23rd.

    5. Granny Smith apple*

      My fave typo in an OOO message was ‘thank you for your massage.’ So yes, proofreading is great advice.

    6. Lunch Ghost*

      And don’t post them until you’re reasonably close to actually being out of office. (Somewhat different meaning of “office”, but I emailed a local politician recently for work and got back an OOO that she didn’t seek another term and will be leaving office as of… a date nearly two months from now.)

  22. sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*

    Let’s talk about fonts. Have you ever worked with people who just will not work with certain fonts? Do they cite issues like headaches or eye issues, or even needing an accommodation?

    I had a manager ask me to change the font of my template to “accommodate” another manager who, according to Manager 1, would cringe and refuse to work with the materials if they were in the wrong font.

    When it was presented like this, I said No especially since Manager 2 doesn’t own the material (he’s in another location) and once his contribution was done, he would no longer be looking at it. And since I was training new people using our template, I explained I wasn’t changing my template for external contributor.

    My director later told me that Manager 1’s description was a very poor choice of words and explained that indeed, Manager 2 gets headaches if the font is non-serif and has to insist that materials be in a serif font. (Which was confusing as our materials are mostly in a serif font!). This was apparently not a case of Georgia Pro vs Times New Roman as a preference but truly a health matter.

    I’ve never heard of this. But hey, I don’t know everything! Is this common at all?

    1. Allypopx*

      That’s really interesting to me. I’ve only ever heard it the other way around – that sans serif fonts can be easier for people prone to migraines or with reading difficultes.

      1. sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*

        My husband jumped to my defense when I shared this tale with him and he immediately Google Fu’d just what you said, the other way around.

        But if the Manager 2 says he’s suffering, I can’t say “that’s not what the evidence says on Google!”

        1. Observer*

          No, you can’t. Some googling is often not going to give you the whole story.

          @MechanicalPencil gives a good explanation of why it works that way for some people.

      2. Louisa*

        I’ve also only encountered it the other way (sans serif being easier than serif) but it seems to be common-ish among people with migraines or vision troubles. I can read serif fine most of the time but if I’m fatigued and in low light sans serif seems much less likely to cause a headache, much as larger print stuff is less tiring.

      3. MechanicalPencil*

        That feels backwards to me. I have chronic migraines, and a serif font is much, much easier for me. Also, I invert my colors as often as possible — black/dark grey background with white text.

        You don’t really read the letters so much as recognize the shapes of the letters, and serif fonts make it easier for your brain to do that. At least according to a prof I had many years ago.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      I genuinely cannot read certain standard fonts (they tend to “swim” on me). If something is given to me in Word, I just switch it to a font I can read. But if I can’t do that, yes, I insist that they be put into a different font so that I can read them and opine.

      1. often trapped under a cat*

        I also will generally switch the font myself if I can. If it’s a .pdf, I’m out of luck, though I will sometimes ask if there is a .doc file I could have instead.

        It’s partially a font preference and partially a layout preference–if I have to quickly read and make notes on something, I want to make it as comfortable to read as possible. Don’t ask me to read 10,000 words of double-spaced, too-wide-margin, really skinny Arial!

    3. have we met?*

      Yes – some fonts don’t “translate” well to screens, so they absolutely can cause headaches and the like for those who are sensitive. And some are just harder to read.

      And some fonts are perceived as unprofessional, which is a whole other issue, but a real one.

      1. sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*

        No Comic Sans here! LOL We use Times New Roman for all body text and Segoe UI for titles. That’s it. I agree some are hard to read. But with the hundreds of times we’ve run our materials (they are workshops) in this font combo, and knowing how human beings to complain about the smallest thing, we’ve had no feedback on the font choice, except from this Manager.

        He prefers Garamond and his emails are in that (and in purple).

        1. The Librarian*

          Comic Sans is actually a dyslexia-friendly font, so please be nice if you come across it!

          1. sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*

            I secretly still like that font, honestly…so I will be nice, happily. ;)

            1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

              I use it for personal things because it’s so easy on the eyes, especially in a softer color like brown.

            2. Windchime*

              I secretly like that font, too; at least, I don’t hate it as much as is popular to do right now. I don’t ever use it in my own documents because I understand that a lot of people hate it, but I don’t object to it.

          2. Font Science Time*

            That’s actually a myth. Comic Sans was designed to look cartoony, nothing more. Research hasn’t shown any particular benefit to Comic Sans or other sans serif fonts, although different people do definitely have a preference. What actually helps dyslexic people read is larger letters and wider spaces between letters and words. Comic Sans doesn’t really have an advantage there. You can make any font more dyslexia friendly by increasing the font spacing. (In Word, on the Home tab > Font > Advanced, select the “Spacing” drop down menu and select “Expanded”.) There is a font developed specifically to help dyslexics, called Dyslexie, but research has shown the benefit to be fairly minimal, although an individual might have more benefit than average, so it’s worth trying.

            tl;dr – Comic Sans isn’t really any more dyslexic friendly than any other sans serif fonts, which are only minimally helpful. Even fonts designed to be helpful generally aren’t.

              1. Teacher Lady*

                Here’s another one that points out that “gains” from spacing adjustments have been limited to reading speed and aren’t specific to readers with dyslexia: https://www.readingrockets.org/blogs/shanahan-literacy/what-about-special-fonts-kids-dyslexia-or-other-reading-problems

                Of course, if people feel more comfortable and successful with certain reasonable font adjustments, go for it! But also, young people with reading problems need reading instruction that meets their needs (fully fund special education!), and workplaces should offer access to meaningful accommodations for those who need them (like speech to text or text to speech).

            2. Observer*

              Comic Sans was designed to look cartoony, nothing more.

              So? That doesn’t change the fact that may people actually do find it easier to read. That’s not a myth.

              1. Teacher Lady*

                Right, but it shifts it from “this is an essential accommodation that we must default to for people with reading disabilities” to “this is an accommodation that may help some people but may be insufficient for others.” If using Comic Sans is replacing offering speech to text or text to speech because it’s “good enough,” that’s a problem. If people are able to do what they need to do in Comic Sans, great!

          3. Homophone Hattie*

            Yes. It also can be good for people who are not very familiar with the Roman alphabet.

          1. sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*

            Yes. Purple and in Garamond and frankly, I find that harder to read than mine in the default Calibri 11 pt.

            But I never tell anyone what to use in their emails (unless there was a corporate policy about it, and there isn’t).

            1. Windchime*

              I notice that one of my colleagues is using the “stationary” in Outlook. Colored font and some kind of textured backgound….it makes me shudder.

        3. Type Nerd*

          Graphic designer here, the differences between Times New Roman and Garamond are honestly pretty small, not enough for one to give you a headache and the other not.

          But honestly I’ve heard more people say they find serifs hard to read on screens, especially at small sizes, than sans serifs.

    4. Callisto*

      I’ve always worked with corporate style guides, so personal preferences are not allowed. I’ve heard of certain fonts being designed for people with dyslexia or reading disabilities, but nothing about headaches.

      1. sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*

        Someone recently told me that black on white titles (in PowerPoint) were very difficult for her dyslexic son. This was a new fact for me and at odds with our template as we chose black on white as supposedly easiest to read than having titles in colours matching the logo colour scheme.

        We originally had different instructions for the facilitators in three different colours until we realized that perhaps this would not work for colour-blind facilitators. We consulted with a colour blind person, even. So, main text is now in black and specific instructions in green only, which makes for a cleaner looking document.

        1. Blarghle Blarghle*

          The black on white thing holds if you’re using true black (like, Hex #000000). The contrast is so high it can cause trouble on screen. If you’ve got some wiggle in your palette, a softer black can be easier to read. It still *feels* black, but it’s just a slightly lower contrast that the eye can accept a little better.

          1. sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*

            Oh, that’s interesting. I’ve never checked the Hex # on it, it’s just the default colour that PowerPoint (Microsoft) offers. I’ve got plenty of wiggle – I manage the template.

            I might reach out to that coworker with the dyslexic son and see if he’s willing test it for us.

            1. Blarghle Blarghle*

              At my current company, we use RGB 75,79,84, and at my last company I think it was 88 across the board. Offering for starting points in case it’s helpful.
              (I LOVE this stuff!)

      2. Bagpuss*

        They could easily be linked – if a font is hard for you to read then the extra focus and strain of doing so could easily trigger a headache, similarly if the font ‘swims’ .

        That said, if ne person needs something which doesn’t fit with the ‘house style’ then it may be easier for them to change the font themselves to enable them to read it, particularly if the document is going to need to be in the ‘normal’ font when it is finalized / published.

    6. londonedit*

      Working in publishing people have a LOT of opinions about fonts, colours etc – mainly to do with book covers but also sometimes to do with the typefaces used in the actual pages of the book. I don’t think I’ve had a job where there hasn’t been an ‘Oh god, don’t even bother presenting those covers in the editorial meeting – Tabitha can’t stand sans serif fonts’ or ‘Fergus hates yellow, remember to tell the designer not to send in any cover designs with yellow backgrounds’. But that’s just the personal preferences of (usually) higher-up people in editorial, marketing or sales, I’ve never encountered anyone who had a medical problem with certain typefaces.

    7. cmcinnyc*

      I have a coworker who is having vision problems and has switched all her fonts. It’s a real thing!

      1. often trapped under a cat*

        During a stretch where I could not afford to get new glasses, I made fonts increasingly larger on my screens so that I could continue to do my work.

    8. Wisteria*

      I would have rolled my eyes and changed the font anyway bc seriously, are you going to die if you use a different font? This is a case of It’s Better To Get Along Than To Die On This Hill

      1. sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*

        No, not gonna die. If it had been Manager 2’s document and outside of our National program, I would have changed it for him and said nothing and rolled my eyes at my desk.

        But this is the National Template in a National Document and I’m training new people. I made it clear that it is hard to train people if five different managers have five different font preferences plus the preferences of contributors. We’re not graphic designers with “customers.” We design workshops; and the design for ease of facilitation should be the same. There’s a template for a reason: ease of work, simplicity and consistency and it makes it that much easier for new people to parachute in and start working. Manager 1 is flighty as hell and the templates are there to keep her on track as much as anyone else who is organized (and it doesn’t always work – the flightiness is deep with this one and it’s a constant battle).

        1. ecnaseener*

          But it sounds like there *aren’t* five different managers with five different preferences. There’s one manager who’s experiencing genuine discomfort, and no other manager is arguing against it.

    9. Donkey Hotey*

      The only way that typefaces give me a headache are the people with Strong Opinions about them.

      1. sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*

        Since it was originally presented to me in such a way that I thought Manager 2 was being a Diva, I felt the same.

    10. Chauncy Gardener*

      I worked with one person who was severely dyslexic and could read things best in a certain font. I would put it in that font if she needed to work on it and then before I sent it out (like if it was going to the whole company or something) I’d put it into the ‘corporate’ font. And I’m exec level and she was entry level and I just think that type of accommodation is not a big deal

      1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

        All exec level people should think the way you do. Actually, people at every level should.

    11. Your Local Password Resetter*

      Definitely a thing, thouugh no idea how common it is.
      I’d change the font for manager 2 since it’s a health issue, and change it back once you get it back from them.

  23. International Tumbleweed*

    I had a casual “coffee chat” with my boss the other week. She started the call with “How’re you? You look so young and beautiful.” This really isn’t a big deal, but it kind of rubbed me the wrong way. Is this a normal thing to say to your direct report or am I being overly sensitive? We’re both women and I am definitely the kind of person to not think you should be commenting on people’s appearance in the work place.

    1. Mental Lentil*

      Well, the opposite of this would be “I’m good. How are you? You look so old and worn out.”

      Since that comment wouldn’t be appropriate, I don’t think her initial comment is either.

      But I am also a person who is terrible at giving complements and has had to work really hard over the years to get good at them. It may just be that she flubbed the opener.

    2. Dittany*

      Noooooo, that is not normal. On the other hand, it might have just been an attempt at “You look great!” that came out a bit weirdly.

      Has she made inappropriate comments before?

      1. International Tumbleweed*

        English isn’t her first language so maybe it is more of language barrier thing. She is otherwise pretty complementary of my work, which I appreciate. She has made similar comments in the past, but we don’t meet super often one-on-one and we are all still working remotely. I just worry that as a young women I will not be taken seriously and these comments contribute to my worry. I’m not really sure what I can do about it though.

        1. Chauncy Gardener*

          That makes a big difference. I’ve worked with lots of folks from Europe and the stuff that comes out of their mouths sometimes is really different from the norms in the US (not like it’s all perfect here, ahem). Like really pressing a fellow employee (when we’re out to dinner) to explain why he’s not drinking alcohol (really!), commenting on weight gains, REALLY bad racial, sexual and anti-Semitic comments. I could go on…. It could be it was the country of origin, I’m not sure. But it was pretty across the board, no matter who came over

      2. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

        Especially since English is not her first language I would really cut her some slack. It may even be a culture thing that comments like that are acceptable in her culture. I know some people will say that this isn’t appropriate but she may have just been making the general “you look great” comment. I would think it was intended as a compliment.

    3. JanetM*

      I would be horrified if my manager told me I looked “young and beautiful.” That seems utterly out of line to me (not to mention objectively wrong in my case!).

      I will comment on appearance in a more general way — “I really like that scarf,” for example, or “Did you get new glasses?”

    4. Joy*

      If this were a one time comment, I would let it slide. Perhaps she was feeling kind of low or down on herself, and seeing your fresh face just made her blurt out something slightly inappropriate. If she herself were feeling young and beautiful, she probably wouldn’t have said that to you.

    5. New Mom*

      In the U.S. that would be a very weird thing to say to a direct report. I lived and worked in Asia for years and it was very common for people to make comments like that, and I never really got comfortable with it. I’m only using the international experience I had because of your username in case you are working in a country that is not your home country.

      1. International Tumbleweed*

        I’m Canadian, working in Canada, so international but not too different. My boss isn’t asian either. She is from europe, but I’m not exactly sure where.

    6. Double A*

      It’s a bit of a weird comment but if it’s a one off I’d let it go. Or maybe have a response ready for next time, like:

      “Thanks! The portrait I have of myself in the attic looks like hell, though.”

    7. RagingADHD*

      It’s weird, but not DEFCON-10 wierd. Given the other context you mentioned in replies, I wouldn’t think it’s worth making an issue about.

  24. Two Chairs, One to Go*

    Update on my search: I made good progress interviewing for 1 role but didn’t make it to the final interview. I am really bummed out. I am waiting to hear back on another opportunity before I dive back in.

  25. My cat is prettier than me*

    This happened years ago, but I’ve been dying to hear other people’s thoughts. It’s kind of long, sorry.
    My first job was at a fast-casual restaurant where I ran food, bussed tables, and worked the register. I was a minor at the time, and in my state minors cannot work more than six hours without a break. One day I reached the six hour mark without a break. About fifteen minutes after, I inquired about a break. They said my shift was over and I could go home.
    I spoke with the manager the next day, and he said that it was my fault because I came in an hour early. I later spoke with the district manager who asked to speak with my mother as I was a minor. The next time I went to work, the assistant manager chastised me for getting my mother involved. I was too timid to tell him that the DM was the one who asked to speak to her.
    Am I crazy in thinking this was ridiculous?

    1. Dasein9*

      It was ridiculous.

      If you’re like me, you’ve re-lived that experience with an entirely new script many times. And hey, if that helps us to know what to say in similar future situations, well and good. But your reading of the situation is accurate.

      1. My cat is prettier than me*

        I did end up quitting shortly after. They pulled all kinds of shady stuff.
        For example, shifts didn’t have end times. The schedule would only show what time you started. The manager
        told us not to make plans on days we worked because we would never know when we were going to leave. One time I called in because I was feeling weak after getting blood drawn, they told me to bring them a doctor’s note THAT DAY. I did it then, but now I would tell them exactly where to put that note.

    3. Oxford Comma*

      You are not crazy on either front. I don’t have food service experience and it’s been decades since I worked supermarket/retail jobs, but this was the kind of crap they would pull all the time.

    4. Malarkey01*

      The DM was really weird for asking to speak to your mother. Minor or not that has nothing to do with discussing your work with management.
      I will say whenever I worked minimum wage jobs with strict break requirements it was drilled into me that I was responsible for speaking up if I was about to hit a limit. As a supervisor I always tried to stay on top of scheduling the breaks and making sure everyone took them since they have a domino affect on coverage if someone doesn’t take their break right on time, but with 20+ people running around and rush times looking up to realize 7 people didn’t take their break when they were suppose to and you’re about to hit limit was the stuff of migraines.

    5. Purple Penguin*

      You’re not crazy at all. I also worked in food service as a teen and into my early 20s and experienced so much ridiculousness, including illegal and borderline illegal actions. Then I just bent to the will of management because I’d been taught to work hard and “keep my head down” but now I would walk away. That said, because of those ridiculous experiences, I now fight for and am in solidarity with worker’s rights and advocating for others. Maybe you’ll find this to be true too?

    6. allathian*

      This was ridiculous. I worked in retail and in food service as a teen and young adult. I guess I lucked out, because I always had a manager or more experienced employee tell me to take a break. I almost never had to ask for one.

  26. Nicotena*

    This week’s question about quitting for creative pursuits has made me wonder: how many of us have actually made a full time living on a creative pursuit like writing, art, or crafting? Is it a true full time career that covers your insurance, retirement savings, etc? (versus, the “side hustle” model where you make some extra money doing it but not enough to live on, which seems common in my circle, or you pair it with teaching). What percent of your time do you spend doing the actual creative work versus the marketing or business side?

    1. Zephy*

      Not me but my best friend and her partner do art full-time, mostly funded via Patreon, although she has some contract projects that are ongoing. They’re not 100% independent yet — they get help from family for some things, housing being a big one — but they’ve been able to build some savings and are making moves in that direction.

      1. Nicotene*

        It does seem like patreon and other crowd-funding type sites (Ko-fi, kickstarter, gofundme) may have created a potential model for funding that didn’t used to exist! It seems to work quite well for the writing world for folks who are Very Online and might be considered influences via Substack newsletters. This is potentially filling the gap that used to be filled by paid short stories and opinion articles, which I think are harder to come by.

    2. Lizy*

      I spend my full-time paycheck on my creative pursuits… I’m not sure that’s how that’s supposed to work, though… lol

      1. Chris too*

        This is over 80 years ago, but a famous and commercially successful artist was the father of one of the teens in my mum’s circle – my mum said in retrospect how it was kind of funny that his job was not really considered as anything much different from the jobs of the other dads.

    3. RagingADHD*

      I made a living for a short time working in theater, but not enough to cover a standard full-time set of benefits.

      Now I write freelance, and could certainly make enough to cover a FT bennies package. But my spouse has good bennies, so I work a bit less and do more of the kid/house stuff.

      TBH, I’m not sure if my health would hold up to a FT schedule anymore. But the work & money are there if I could.

      1. RagingADHD*

        Oh, and I get most of my work through an agency, so that’s 90% billable and maybe 10% admin.

        For my own novels, I cycle through writing and marketing. Maybe 60% creative, 40% selling?

    4. TaxLady*

      My brother is a full time artist, he travels extensively to art fairs to sell his work and has an online store. He struggled for many years though to get to this point, living on his wife’s salary from a traditional job, but now he is the primary earner. I also work in theater/film and only a handful of people I know manage to earn enough only from performing, the vast vast majority have another income stream, even if it’s related like teaching voice lessons or dance classes. But if you manage to break in to the top echelon by getting on Broadway, that tends to open the doors you need to stay there, with related work like film or doing well paid concerts.

      1. RagingADHD*

        For the Broadway chorus performers, musicians, and technicians I used to know, if they got into a long-running show, it was just like any regular middle-class union job.

    5. AcademiaNut*

      I have one friend who got a position in a stable theatre company. That came after years of working full time pay the bills jobs and acting on the side, and did require moving countries.

    6. SummerBreeze*

      My husband is a full time writer and has been for many many years. His income is wildly uneven — as high as mid 6 figures some years, but mostly 100-150k. It’s primarily book money, some conference/event money, and on the good years it’s Hollywood money (Several of his books have been optioned).

    7. Retired(but not really)*

      My good friend’s candle business of 30+ years has been quite successful. It has gone through a variety of changes over the years. Initially it was just her and sometimes her husband doing craft shows and such and working out of her home. It evolved into both wholesale and retail at various times. The focus currently is on retail primarily at Renaissance Festivals and online with a few minor wholesale accounts still active. It has occupied her time more or less 24/7 (mentally). It is definitely not something for the faint of heart to contemplate. Lots of anxiety about the economy at numerous points for sure. And conversations about I may just have to go get a job as a greeter at you know where. Lol. But yes it can be done!

  27. Escaped a Work Cult*

    Has anyone had luck on getting a micromanaging boss out of micromanaging? I’m experience staff shortages because of this behavior.

    1. Allypopx*

      Where are you in relation to the boss on the hierarchy, and do they have a boss you could speak to since there’s a real business impact on the behavior?

      1. Escaped a Work Cult*

        He is the owner to the company, I’m the right hand. It’s a conversation I’ve had a couple of times especially with his request on removing himself from the day to day work.

        1. Nicotene*

          I’ve managed to elbow a supervisor completely out of one element of my work, but only because I don’t think they were super interested in it and it wasn’t high profile (basically they were willing to let it fail). Only by keeping them out of it *entirely* was I able to do this, and there was always the chance it would pop up in something they did care about and they’d be back up my @** about it. This was someone who would have liked to dictate all my emails midcareer (and did it to others too, so it wasn’t even personal).

    2. Slipping The Leash*

      Yes but it literally took years. Eventually the combination of A) me being able to predict what she would want done in nearly any situation, B) my willingness to ask her right away if I was unsure of A, and C) her getting super busy with other responsibilities and the roof not caving in on us made her back off.

      1. Escaped a Work Cult*

        Oh I’m definitely at the same place. Basically trying to show the roof isn’t caving in so he can really dive into his extra work.

  28. Cowgirlinhiding*

    I am a manager at the job I work at. I am thinking of getting a part-time job just to get some bills paid down. How do I let people know I just want to work part-time 20 hour weeks at an entry level job (without stress) and not get turned down because I have manager level background?

    1. Chilipepper Attitude*

      I think if you just apply to part time jobs, there won’t be an issue. You can also leave off your management level job. In interviews, just focus on what you do like about the job and the hours.

      1. Nicotene*

        I think it depends; a lot of part time hirers want more flexibility; they don’t want to be told you can’t pick up random extra shifts or be available on short notice because you have another job. They may put up with it, or it may be totally fine, or they may pick someone else if they need that flexibility. That’s why things like driving uber where you can in theory set your own hours (NOT saying anything good about uber, just that this the perception) are popular for side hustles. My PT role required that I agree they would come “first” in priority, which was a little annoying.

    3. Maybe Bri*

      Depending on what you mean by entry level, I think the biggest concern is pay. Most places hiring part time workers are going to be worried that they can’t pay you what you’re actually worth. I used to hire for retail and that would have been the thing to jump out at me.

  29. Environmental Compliance*

    I have a friend whose workplace is bringing them back into the office after WFH for the majority of COVID. They have been asked to come in 3 days a week.

    Friend told us that they are planning on telling their boss that they have childcare the other two days when they’d be WFH (they do not and do not plan on getting it) and that they need to leave at the latest at 3:30PM the days they have to be in to pick up their child from childcare (of which they do not have, and said they don’t need to do, they just don’t want to be there). They have specifically said it’s not anything to do with COVID, they just like being at home (don’t have to wear real pants, accessibility of snacks, and they aren’t working a full day’s worth of work).

    Another friend and I tried to tell them that is a bad idea, but out of curiosity’s sake…. managers, if you had an employee doing this and found out, what would happen?

    1. Allypopx*

      Fire them. That’s not an employee I’d be able to trust going forward.

      To be clear: If they came to me proactively to discuss these preferences (maybe framed it a little differently) I’d be open to a conversation. Everything except for the “not working a full day” is generally fine and if an employee is just generally more comfortable at home there can be benefits to that. But the lying and sneaking around would be an instant death to the professional relationship.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        That was my take as well. We asked them why they wouldn’t just….talk to their manager and discuss options, but apparently “it’s not worth it”. If that wasn’t the statement I got whenever Friend brought up seemingly-easily-solved-by-discussion problems at previous workplaces, I think I would be a bit more sympathetic. Really it seems as though they just don’t want to interact with supervision.

        I did tell them that they were going to get fired at some point if all they’re doing is playing Solitaire all day, and the response was “who’s going to know?”. *facepalm*

        1. Allypopx*

          Yeah that’s either someone who karma is going to catchup with or someone who lucked into a position where they’ll fly under the radar – I don’t think anything you say is going to make a difference unfortunately.

      2. Elle Woods*

        Exactly. If this were framed more as a conversation–an honest one–it would be a different thing. But coming to me with a pack full of lies and demands? Not cool. I would not be able to trust that employee whatsoever.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      So their kids are young enough that they have to claim they have childcare, and yet they’re comfortable leaving them home alone? Never mind what I’d think as a manager – as a parent, I’m appalled.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        It’s a friend I’m planning on distancing from for a lot of reasons. The general attitude…..creeps into other areas, as well.

        I’m *slightly* concerned that if/when they get fired because of this or something similar, they’ll come to me and ask for help getting into my workplace. It’s dissimilar enough that I don’t think they’d attempt it, but who knows. That conversation would likely decimate the friendship (which again I’m not against, but I’d rather it not implode, just a gentle eventual distancing).

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          “I’ll sure let you know if I see an opening that fits your skills!*”

          *If we have an opening for a lying liar who lies, I’ll call you.

          1. JelloStapler*

            ^ this. “I don’t think you would enjoy the oversight and expectations in our work culture”. (i.e. they expect you to work and will call you out for not doing so).

        2. tangerineRose*

          Distancing sounds like a good idea to me. This friend doesn’t sound trustworthy.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            We used to be quite good friends too, so I’m a bit sad at where it’s ended up. But Friend has really, really changed over the years. The person they’ve become is just…not the type I would like to be around – always negative, blaming everyone around them, a very heightened sense of entitlement, and very draining.

    3. Alex*

      That totally flies where I work. I have a coworker who explicitly worked one day a week to save on childcare, and supposedly works 7-3 to accommodate care needs. (But…he totally doesn’t and everyone knows he does nothing on the day he was out. Not that he did all that much anyway…)

    4. mediamaven*

      I would fire them. This is exactly why WFH won’t stick long term and everyone will have to be punished for some bad apples. We’ve been dealing with all kinds of stuff like this and it’s becoming untenable.

      1. Windchime*

        It’s so confusing to me that people say they are WFH but don’t do anything. Don’t these people have deliverables? If I wasn’t online and promptly responding to coworkers’ IMs and producing my deliverables, I’d get canned (and rightly so). What kinds of jobs do people have where they can just do nothing and nobody notices? If that’s the case, why does their job even exist?

    5. Teapot Repair Technician*

      How old are the kids? I wouldn’t have any qualms about working from home without childcare for kids 10 or over. Especially during the school year when they’d only be home after 3:00.

      The question about leaving at 3:30 depends on when they arrive in the morning and what the office’s core hours are. At my workplace it’s rare for meetings to run past 4:00, so leaving at 3:30 wouldn’t be a problem so long as you were a little flexible for the occasional late meeting.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Baby. Spouse is “babysitting” (their wording, not mine), but as it stands for the past few months, Friend has been taking care of the child while they have been WFH and prefers it to keep going in that manner. When Friend has to go back in, Spouse will take over for parenting. Friend does not need to get back so that Spouse can go to work.

        Friend starts between 8-9 and didn’t want to shift hours, just leave earlier. *shrug*

        1. Teapot Repair Technician*

          I don’t see a problem with telling your employer you have childcare when you do in fact have childcare in the form of the child’s other parent.

          Coming in at 8-9 and leaving at 3:30 (and lying about the reason) is a much worse offence.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            That’s fair. Mostly Friend has been saying childcare in that they need to go pick up said child and needs add’l time for that, not that child is at home already – this is for the days they would go into the office.

            WFH days Spouse is not assisting. Friend is taking care of child themselves.

    6. JelloStapler*

      I’d be pissed if someone was claiming a hardship that many people DO have to get out of work they should be doing. They might keep others from being able to do it when they ACTUALLY need it.

    7. Monica Gellar*

      This is such a bad look, and proves to orgs exactly why employees cant be trusted to wfh. Her boss knows that she is being unproductive. They might tolerate it during a transition period, but anything more is risking her job.

      Not to mention, there are others that have legitimate issues wont get the level of support they need.

  30. StarHunter*

    I was retired for a while and for reasons needed to return to full time work (rent, health insurance). After applying for numerous jobs I was fortunate to be rehired back by a company I used to work for but am underemployed. I still would like to find a position inline with my previous experience (manager at a nonprofit). I am over 60 so I am thinking this might have something to do with the lack of responses. I can’t even get a rejection letter. (I have Alison’s materials and revamped the resume & cover letters.) Has anyone had any luck getting hired after 60? I used to think nonprofits valued age & experience but maybe it’s still too competitive out there still? Especially for remote jobs? Ideas? Thanks!

    1. irene adler*

      I’m finding that in the last year+, rejection letters are no longer issued. That would include whether I was contacted about the position, actually interviewed for the position or received no contact whatsoever from the employer.
      I think employers are concentrating on the likely candidates and nothing more.

      Also, age discrimination is real. So that might be a factor in whether you are selected for interviewing.
      My take: age & experience = cost more to hire & train = no thanks.

      I’m in my 50’s.

    2. Alex*

      I work at a nonprofit and they routinely lay off people in their 60s while at the same time hire people in their 20s.

      I’m sorry–age discrimination sucks, but is very very real.

  31. Lizabeth*

    How do you “politely” tell a coworker (I’m not their manager and their manager isn’t doing their job plus it’s the company’s owner) that I’m not here or paid accordingly to make sure she does her job? This coworker drops balls on a regular basis, including misspelling designer’s names, proofing stuff and misses things that are wrong, which have gotten printed that way. IF someone else makes a mistake they are all over it and CC’ing everyone, asking how can this happen blah, blah, blah. All I can do is make sure that all the parties concerned are CC’d on a clarification email. BUT I’m tired of having to do followup and there’s no repercussions on their end for not doing their job right to begin with. This isn’t a newbie thing – they’ve been doing the job for years and does know what’s expected of them – it’s not rocket science by any means. I am looking around at other jobs but there almost “always” going to be someone like this no matter what.

    1. Bagpuss*

      I’m not sure you can tell her upfront, I think all you can do is stop helping her, nd if she then tries to blame you respond (cc-ing her manager if needed) to say that it wasn’t your project / role and that perhaps she need s to check more carefully before sending stuff out / to print.

      IF you have input because you are on the same projects, can you return stuff to her ? (either before you do your part , to say “This doesn’t look ready for me to do X, can you send it back once you have reviewed and corrected the spelling errors and proof-read the document?” or afterwards “I have done X, I presume that you will now fix your spelling errors and proof read the document before circulating it , let me know of any of those changes mean anything I’ve done needs to be updated.”

      In either case, if she then asks you to tell her what the problems are, or to fix them for her, you can explain that it is not your job and you don’t have time.

      If you don’t have direct input I would be inclined to simply let her fail.

    2. animaniactoo*

      It’s probably not something you can do as a big picture conversation, but you can one-note them on everything they are trying to pass off as your responsibility.

      “I will check with my manager, but as far as I am aware, this is not something I am supposed to be responsible for.”
      “I have checked with my manager, this is not something that I am supposed to be doing and might actually get in trouble for doing when it’s not my role.”

      Note: You are not saying whose responsibility it IS. Just that it is not yours and you are making sure that you have a clear understanding of your job duties with your chain of command.

  32. Go Bucks*

    Let me vent on something here and ask a question.

    A friend works for a huge multi-national company with branches worldwide. He was assigned to travel to Europe for training. He is a low level manager and was not too excited about two weeks on the road, but whatever. Of course, since he is salaried, the company has him flying out on Saturday and arriving Sunday, so he can work a full week here and then be there for training on Monday. Same with the trip back, ensuring he is traveling on his time and not the company’s. Then, to save a few bucks, on both the outbound and return trips, after departing from our regional airport, he has a ten hour layover at the hub airport, before departing for Europe. Total travel time = 26 hours. Since the transatlantic flight is 9 hours, I suggested that he look it up, and sure enough, the Employee Handbook says flights over 6 hours should be booked in Business Class. When he bought it up, they just flat out refused. He showed them the Handbook, and they just said NO. I told him to bring up his bad back (well documented) and ask for an accommodation under ADA, and again they said no, pointing out the last time he was promoted, he signed a job description stating travel was a requirement of the position. No matter he also signed for the receipt of the Employee Handbook authorizing hm to fly Business Class. Of course, when the Corporate elite make the same trip, they are sure to fly midweek in First Class.
    This is a company that obviously cares so very little for its own employees. They even were going to make him take PTO if he went to get the required COVID test during work hours. At the Corporate Level things may be different, these decisions are all made locally, through the local management, HR and local facility budget. At the very least, having him sit at an airport on a 10 hour layover, on his Saturday, so they can save $200 on airfare is unconscionable. This company has also reached out to me about a position there. How do I tell them I would never work for a company that puts so little value on employees without putting my friend’s career in hot water?

    1. Colette*

      Depending on the training, traveling on the weekend may not be ridiculous (e.g. it’s a M-F training). And the layover sounds terrible, assuming there is another flight with reasonable transfer times for $200 more. But all y ou need to say is “I’m not interested, thanks for thinking of me.”

    2. cmcinnyc*

      It’s not your job, so how are you going to “put my friend’s career in hot water?”

      I had to push back against our CFO *constantly* on this stuff. (“No, I am not leaving her in the Istanbul airport for 16 hours between flights.” “No, I will not book a flight from NY to Chicago that is 9 hours including a layover in Dallas. They’re flying direct.” “No, 48 hours travel time between NY and London is not standard, and it’s not happening.”) But it’s up to your friend to to push back, not you.

      1. Windchime*

        I once had an admin assistant book me on a flight from Seattle to Madison, WI with like 4 plane changes, including places like Portland and Chicago. Thankfully, several of the legs were on a cheapo airline which cancelled the flight so I was able to rebook with just a couple of layovers (which was typical). I think she saved something like $70 but it would have taken me like 16 hours to get home. Crazy.

    3. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

      I don’t think your friend would appreciate you turning down a job offer with the information he told you likely to vent to someone on the outside. That would put him in hot water. If you really want to go this route, check with your friend first, otherwise just say no and move on.

      Honestly though, I don’t see this as an isolated to this company thing. A lot of companies for the working level have weekend travel and try to penny-pinch flights. I had a hard time once with my organization trying to explain that a $100 direct flight (2hrs) was a better deal than a $75 flight that was a connection, two 2hr flights with an 8hr layover. And normally the corporate/exec levels are always treated better because they are higher up. Though he should check to see if the flight time is considered working hours, it is for us, which can help push back on the layover time, or at least get him comp leave time.

      1. allathian*

        Yeah. For us, travel time doesn’t count as working hours, but it does count for per diem. Which depending on the location can be as much as $200 per day. This is a fixed sum, a traveling entry-level employee gets the same per diem as an executive.

        The company’s also really shortsighted, because a well-rested employee will perform better. I wouldn’t be opposed to travel during the weekend to be on-site for training on Monday morning, but I definitely wouldn’t be okay with 16-hour layovers at an airport.

    4. Koala dreams*

      You can decline without giving reasons. Or you can give bland reasons like valuing work/life balance.

    5. Teapot Repair Technician*

      To answer your question, “Thanks for the offer, but I’m not seeking employment at this time.”

      As far as the travel arrangements go, they seem normal to me. A 10-hour layover for international travel isn’t crazy, and is preferable to a short layover that leaves little margin for delays. I’ve never worked for a company that flew regular employees business class; it sucks that they’re not honoring what they wrote in the handbook, but the handbook is not a contract.

      Weekend travel is also normal in my experience, though as an exempt employee I can typically get away with “working from home” on the Friday before or the Monday after.

    6. Juneybug*

      Since I am not sure who said no for his business class upgrade, has he talked to his manager about this? HR? Finance (travel reimbursement)?

    7. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      Please tell your friend to fight as much for this. My job has a rule that only managers of certain level and up are eligible for business class. Every time my boss has to travel to the US office he has to endure a long haul flight in economy, although they cover visa or passport related costs.

    8. Eden*

      You can’t. You can’t upbraid them without breaking your friend’s confidence, which you shouldn’t do.

  33. Freelance knitter*

    Hello! Currently I work as a freelance sweater knitter (not my real job). One of my clients has steadily sent me work and has been vocal about how pleased they are with the end results. My contact has hinted that they might consider hiring me part-time. I think I’d like this steady income as a supplement to my freelance income. I’d like to work for this particular client while maintaining my freelance business. (Because of my spouse’s job, I don’t need health insurance.) My question is, how do I make the pitch to hire me part-time? What should I say? Thanks!

    1. animaniactoo*

      Feed it back through the contact that you’ve thought about the suggestion, let them know you’re interested in doing it, and ask them what the next steps should be.

    2. Girasol*

      What’s in it for your client? A lot of companies use contract labor because it’s cheap, there aren’t any direct benefits costs, and if there’s a lull in the demand, contractors can just be dropped unceremoniously. What can you offer to offset those advantages if they hired you? Lower costs? Quicker service? Clearer communication resulting in sweaters that better meet their needs?

    3. Windchime*

      I would suggest it. I was employed full-time for several years as a full-time yarn spinner (wouldn’t that be great!??) and then decided I wanted to retire. I did tell them I could work 20 hours a week; they said no. Once my retirement date drew near, however, they were able to work it out and I now happily spin yarn half-time (with benefits!). I don’t know how long it will last but I’m digging it.

      tl/dr: Ask! If they want you and can make it work, it could be great for everyone!

  34. AL*

    My company shut down at my location and required me to relocate halfway across the country to a different site. I accepted this reluctantly since I was unable to find an equivalent job in the area or in other locations I’d rather live. Just a month after I moved to the new state (at my company’s expense), I received an offer for a job I’d previously interviewed for, with considerably higher pay, more career progression opportunity, and in a far more desirable location for me. I would have accepted this offer immediately if I hadn’t just relocated for my current company. Will it harm my reputation if I take the new job so soon after relocating?

    1. Colette*

      Did you sign anything saying you’d stay for a specific period of time after relocating? Is there a financial penalty for quitting?

      It’ll harm your reputation with your current company, yes. That might be a chance you’re willing to take, though.

    2. have we met?*

      Did the company stipulate any payback of moving costs? If not, this sounds like one of those “Sorry, this just fell into my lap” situations.

      1. AL*

        The paperwork mentioned you don’t have to pay expenses back when the move is at the company’s request. It feels a little icky, but at the same time, I have no idea how much the move cost.

        1. Can Can Cannot*

          Take the job. Your currently employer knows they created a lot of turmoil as a result of the closure. People leaving to take a new jobs is a natural consequence of the turmoil they created. Don’t feel bad. Especially since the new job has so much going for it.

          Hopefully this new move won’t cause you too many problems. Will you be moving back to your previous location, or someplace completely new?

          1. AL*

            I would be moving back to a different location, but one I have lived in previously and have friends there. I really want to take the job, but I feel super guilty about the timing of it and the fact that they paid for the relocation (I guess they saved a ton of money by closing the site and sending the work elsewhere, but still…). I would almost want to offer to pay the relocation expenses back, but I don’t know how much it cost and corporate moves can be at really inflated prices.

            1. Can Can Cannot*

              Don’t feel guilty about it. These things happen when companies force employees to take a relocation they don’t want to do. You shouldn’t feel any obligation to stay in a job that treated you poorly and you don’t want any more.

              DO NOT offer to repay the relocation, and even if they ask you to do this, remind them that the paperwork they provided explicitly said that you would not need to repay. This is a normal cost of doing business, and is a cost that the company knew beforehand that they might need to absorb. These costs are not yours to bear.

              It sounds like the new opportunity will be a positive move for you. Take it, and good luck!

    3. Thursdaysgeek*

      Also, did they pay for your relocation? (Even if they did, I’d probably take the job you want – with more pay, you should hopefully be able to pay back those relocation costs.)

    4. Purple Cat*

      It’s definitely not a good look, and you’ll likely have to pay your company back the relocation expenses.
      But, how tightly knit is your industry? And overall, how much better is the new company? You do need to focus on the real current impacts on your life and not necessarily dwell on potential future blowback (within reason, of course).

    5. WellRed*

      Take the new job. Awkward? Yes but they’ll get over it. The new one sounds so much better it’s worth the risk. And really, when a company makes people relocate or other undesirable things, well, some employees are going to look elsewhere.

    6. animaniactoo*

      Possibly, but the question is – do you think that the reputation hit would be significant enough to damage you down the line if you go through with the new job?

      If you’re not generally known for being flaky and doing stuff like this, doing it once is a lot more likely to have people thinking there must be some reasonable explanation behind it that they just don’t know.

  35. Flaxseed*

    I work with “Sansa” and while she is very knowledgeable and a hard worker, she has become more and more aggressive. Other coworkers and managers have noticed this as well and actually brought it up to the boss. I don’t know if boss will actually talk to her or not about it. Sansa started snapping at people when they asked her a work question, she is hot/cold with me (one day she won’t even say “good morning”/she’ll talk to everyone *except* me, the next day she talks to me), she’s been slamming cabinet drawers and said it was because “the manager in the other department was talking/socializing too much”.) Sansa also has to be overly involved with *everything*. She’ll interrupt conversations, ask people where they’re going, she has to be involved with stuff that has *nothing to do with her*!

    A coworker told me that the boss will send out the job descriptions of the department, but I don’t think that that will do much or solve anything.

    Has anyone experienced this? What did you do?

    1. Artemesia*

      Her manager needs to deal with this firmly. Sending out mass emails or job descriptions is beyond stupid. We all know that people who need to get a message never thing such things relate to them. Her manager needs to let her know that being pleasant and approachable is job behavior and required and that she is not authorized to meddle in the work of others. If you have any way to influence her manager on this, go for it. Otherwise as a peer you are stuck.

      Another example that every problem at work is always bad management.

      1. Flaxseed*

        It’s ironic because if *I* were acting like that, the boss would be talking to me directly/I would get in trouble. I don’t know if my boss is afraid of Sansa or what… I get yelled at for things that I don’t even do!

    2. Chilipepper Attitude*

      I also have a coworker who feels like managers are managing AT her and takes things personally. In her case, she is taking over tasks and running herself ragged and irritating her coworkers.

      We really are not managed well, things slip through the cracks, managers don’t seem to be able to see past tomorrow or plan well at all, etc. But, they also don’t seem to care when things go awry. So most of us just shrug and do the best we can.

      This coworker, however, just cannot let it go. It is not really my role to say anything and she is not driving me crazy bc she is mostly at another location.

      But insight into why she does this would be helpful.

      1. Chilipepper Attitude*

        That was not clear, when I say she seems to feel managers are managing AT her, I mean, she seems to think their managing poorly is done AT her.

    3. Gipsy Danger*

      I don’t really get what sending out job descriptions is supposed to accomplish? Unless Sansa’s specifically states “don’t snap at people or slam doors?”

      1. Bagpuss*

        I assume to point out to her that answering the type of questions people are asking her is part of her job? And that the things she expects to be involved in are not part of her job.

        But I agree that a mass mail is unlikely to solve anything , and that her manager needs to sit down with her and explicitly tell her that she needs to do her job, which includes providing that kind of information when asked, and that she attitude needs to change and be professional.

      2. Environmental Compliance*

        My spouse once had their job description sent to them by a coworker *not anywhere in their reporting chain, mind you*. Coworker was attempting to argue that Spouse needed to do something (pretty unrelated to their job, but related to Coworker’s duties) because of the “and other duties as assigned”.

        It was apparently very entertaining to see Spouse’s manager respond to that email.

    4. Juneybug*

      Could you call her out on her bad behavior with calmness on your part? For example, next time she slams a drawer, could you calmly say “Sansa, please do not slam the drawer as it’s quite loud.”
      “Sansa, please let Susie finish her comments” when she interrupts.
      “Sansa, why do you need to know that information?” when she asks about things outside of her lane.

  36. Constance Lloyd*

    I’m interviewing for a management position. If hired, I would spend the first several months on the job being trained by the folks I’ll eventually manage. Any tips to strike a balance between being a good trainee without blurring the lines and becoming too familiar to morph into an effective manager role? It’s very early so I’m not counting on anything, just trying to be prepared.

    1. Distractinator*

      Even if the “lecture” portion of the training would be very similar whether the trainee is eventually intended to be in a support role, or technical do-er role, or managing a team of the people doing the work, it will help if the discussions around the training are about the management perspective. Not just “here’s how to do this task right” but then “ok, I can see how that works, what do you find the most difficult? Do different people like/hate different aspects of hte task or is it pretty universal? What would make this task flow better? How does this result get passed to the next group?” You want to be a good student, but when you try to learn things that aren’t standard part of the “how to” curriculum that will reinforce that you’re not in the student role forever

  37. Former Adjunct*

    Thank you letters when you’re being funneled through an on-site talent specialist? I had a really great interview (so it seemed to me), but when I’m supposed to hear back from the talent specialist who is organizing, and I don’t have contact info for anyone else, I’m a bit confused. Do I reach out to him and say, hey, I had a really great chat, I’d like to send thank yous, or do I just leave it?

    This seems to be the process for the job interviews I’m having, where the talent specialists are going through Jobvite emails themselves, so it’s even more confusing? Anyone else?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      If you get the feeling that they don’t want anyone contacting the interviewers directly, then I include a line in my thank-you note to the recruiter or talent specialist that says “It was nice to meet Regina and Fergus” and if there’s any individualized comment for a particular person, mention that too.

  38. Dobermom*

    How open should I be with my current supervisor about interviewing internally? My company does not have policies in place making it mandatory to tell your supervisor before doing so. I’ve had two interviews for internal roles outside my department. As a courtesy, I told my boss that I had applied. I haven’t filled him in on how the interviews have gone, yet.

    I am really hoping to land one of the roles I interviewed for. The interview went well, and I have the support of several people on our exec team in my favor.

    My company’s focus on diversity/inclusion has really taken off since our new CEO took over. My current department is a bit of a boys’ club holdover from the old days, and I want to get out of this environment. The roles would also use more of my creative skills, which would be good for my career, anyway.

    So… Do I need to tell my boss that I interviewed? Or was telling him I applied enough for now? I’m not really concerned about being held back or told I can’t move on to a new role – when I told him I had applied, he said he understood why I was looking for something that better fit my skill set.

    1. Littorally*

      I would leave it at telling your boss you applied. Presumably, if the interviewers are interested in you, they’ve probably reached out to him anyway to talk about it — that has always been my internal-hiring experience. Often it is before the interview, even! A good boss will talk you up (if they can honestly do so) and help to move you along. It’s very different from leaving for another company.

    2. animaniactoo*

      You don’t need to keep him updated on every step of the application/interview process. He knows you applied, and that’s enough until there’s something more to tell that actually impacts him… like “I was selected for the position, how do you want to handle my transition to the new dept/role?”

    3. The Dude Abides*

      You owe your boss nothing.

      I thought I had a really good relationship with my old boss, and we both knew our unit was a dumpster fire.

      What I didn’t expect was for him to head for the exit within six months of starting. I had no idea he was looking for the door until he put in notice earlier this month. OTOH, my old boss told me he had a hunch I was looking because I got turned down for a pay/title bump.

  39. Not a Manager?*

    Has anyone moved from a management position back to an individual contributor position with success?

    Background: I have been a manager for many years before taking on an individual contributor position at my current company. After a year and a half, I was asked to lead my group (aka my coworkers now report to me)

    Problem: I have been in my management position for a year and am overwhelmed by it. I work 10-12 hour days and over weekends, think about work even when I’m not working, and am stressed all the time. My management is supportive, I’ve had some responsibilities removed to help, and they tell me I am doing well. But my health is declining due to my stress as is my relationship with my significant other.

    I worry that asking to move back into an individual contributor position will reflect badly on me. Has anyone taken what seems like a demotion with success?

    1. RC Rascal*

      I’ve never see this happen successfully at the same company/same business unit. I have seen it happen successfully in the same company if the IC position is at a different and larger/more prestigious business unit. In this context it was spun as a promotion, i.e. Jane is going from being the Marketing Manager at little bitty Widget Division to the Content Marketing Specialist at giant profitable Teapots Division.

    2. Sparkles McFadden*

      This hard to do unless you are changing companies and/or fields, and even that presents a problem. It mostly has to do with salary expectations.

      I had a very frank discussion with an HR person about this when I was considering an in-house candidate for a lower level position in a different area of the business. The HR rep basically said that any time they let someone take a step down, the person ends up being unhappy or making unreasonable demands regarding salary and oversight, and the person ends up leaving. She gave specific examples and had stats. I was very surprised. The HR rep said “They think they want to take a step down but what they really want is to do the lower level job with the salary and the perks of the higher level job, so they’re always disappointed and they become a problem for their manager.”

      So unless you’re giving up your management job in a small company for the opportunity to move to be an individual contributor in a bigger, more prestigious place, hiring managers will likely be wary.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I’ve had several colleagues do this successfully, but all except one switched groups or companies in the process. I don’t know if they had to in order to make it happen, or if it was just easier. I don’t think they were ever seen as demotions either, but we have a technical career path that allows non-managers to reach levels comparable to management levels (e.g. regular contributors report to first level mgrs, senior contributors report directly to second level, exec contributors report directly to third level).

      The exception went from a senior management position to a high level individual contributor due to a situation similar to what you describe (stress from the job compounded by external stress and health concerns). It wasn’t seen as a demotion because he basically moved sideways into a technical role at about the same level.

      Another colleague was a manager for a while, left the company to work elsewhere as an individual contributor, and then came back as an individual contributor about 5 years later.

      A third colleague took a manager role for about a year, hated it, and did an internal transfer to be an individual contributor in a different division.

    4. Smitten By Juneau*

      I did this successfully many years ago. Not only was I not particularly liking the supervisory role, I wasn’t very good at it. My manager and I decided together to move me back to being an individual contributor, and we were able to work this into a reorg in which the staff that reported to me transitioned to reporting to a parallel supervisor. In reality, we no longer needed two supervisors (we created two positions a few years prior in order to get a handle on a department that was a train wreck after couple years of being a “self-directed work team”) so it made sense overall. Let the supervisor that was at supervision do that, and let me go back to doing work I excelled at.

      I’m still with that department 20 years later, by the way.

  40. Eye roll*

    My husband regularly brings home employee agreements they have all suddenly been asked to sign at work for me to review. And every time, I’m left wondering if the company is evilish or just stupid, because contracts are a big part of their business. Last night’s review involved me saying things like, “It’s normal to ask you to reimburse for unintentional personal purchases on the company card. It’s not really reasonable for them to ask you to reimburse authorized purchases that ended up also having a personal use, like a company lunch with leftovers.” “It’s reasonable to ask to be reimbursed if they pay you for a PTO day you didn’t actually have. It’s not reasonable to ask you to reimburse them for the day you weren’t working if you don’t have PTO and they don’t pay you for it.” “It’s reasonable for them to ask you to reimburse unusual personal use of company property, like tons of long-distance calls or a 100-page fax. It’s not reasonable for them to ask you to reimburse them for company calls on the company phone, or company faxes on the company fax.” This kind of crazy happens every time, and every time, he tells his co-workers my thoughts and goes to his boss and they end up with a new contract/agreement.

    So, my question is, are the unreasonable asks most likely attempts to get something extra if they can, or absolute stupid? (Because, for other reasons, if I found out Lex Luthor owned this company, I would be unsurprised, so I do wonder.) Are other companies actually pulling off this level of milking employees?

    1. Allypopx*

      Either motivation could be true, that really depends on who is writing these policies (like the individual person not just their role) so it’s hard to speculate. I’ve had companies suggest some b*tsh*t stuff that legitimately made sense to them for one reason or another.

      That said, BLESS YOU for reviewing these and helping him shut them down. That’s just awful. LEFTOVERS??

      1. WFH with Cat*

        Yeah, the pay-us-back-because-you-had-leftovers had my head spinning.

        But paying the company that didn’t pay you for a day you didn’t work because you didn’t work it … I can’t even.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Yes, there are companies that are pulling this level of milking employees. Is your husband working for one of them vs somebody who has been promoted to an HR role they’re not suited for and has a general cluelessness about whether the ways they’re trying to save the company money are reasonable? Totally unknown.

  41. Dittany*

    This happened years ago, but I’d love to hear everyone’s thoughts.

    A few jobs ago, I was working in a manufacturing plant, and was paired with a woman who was re-entering the workplace after being a stay-at-home mom for 25 years. I asked her if it had been hard getting used to our shift’s 6am start time, and she laughed and said it was – especially since she had to wake up even earlier in order to make her husband’s lunch. I asked what her husband did, and he apparently worked at home, with no set schedule. I didn’t think it would be appropriate to give her my true thoughts on the matter (i.e., “Wow, that’s not fair at all. Is there a reason why your husband can’t make his own damn lunch instead of forcing you to get even less sleep?”) so I just let it go.

    How would you all have responded?

    2. Artemesia*

      I am not as nice as you, I would have laughed and said ‘You do WHAT? He can’t get up and make himself a sandwich?’ But then I have a partnership marriage and have had for nearly 50 years. I am always astounded that people put up with doing all the emotional labor at home, most or all of the household and child management and work full time with little or no participation by their partner. I have been at parties where a man says ‘I’d like pie’ and his wife halfway across the room jumps up and go gets him pie and serves him.

      1. Clisby*

        I do not think I could have resisted saying, “You … what?”

        Granted, it’s none of my business how couples handle their marriage, but this is on the level of “I have to get up early to pick out my husband’s work clothes for the day.”

    4. ThatGirl*

      I probably would have laughed and said “wow, you’re nicer than me, my husband can make his own dang sandwich and he doesn’t even work from home” – but I think it’s fine to let it go, too.

    5. Sunflower*

      Just what you had done. It’s extremely unlikely you would have responded with that and her response would be ‘wow really? I hadn’t considered that’. I highly doubt your comment would have enlightened her into an option she didn’t know existed. It’s none of my business how people want to live their personal lives and there are a lot of people out there who would happily do this- it’s really not your place to judge. Also…do you know what time she goes to sleep? Maybe she wakes up at 5am and then goes to sleep at 7 while her husband works from 12pm-8pm and the opposing schedules work out for them with the kids.

    6. Chilipepper Attitude*

      I think I might have said, oh wow, what kind of disability does he have? and then, so sorry, that was none of my business.

      More seriously, I would have said something about my dad never learned to cook either. don’t know how my mom put up with that.

    7. QueenJaneApproximately*

      I wouldn’t have said anything. There are all kinds of little favors spouses do for each other. If she didn’t want to do it then she wouldn’t. What’s unfair about it? Maybe he does something in the evening that she doesn’t want to do, so she gets time at home to relax.

      1. Golden*

        That was my thought. I’d gladly prepare all of my husband’s meals if it meant he would do all of the laundry and grocery acquisition.

      2. Msnotmrs*

        +1. I go to bed really early and my husband usually walks the dog really late, like sometimes 8 or 9 pm. Beings that I wake up at 5:30 to go to work, it is a kindness on my part to return the favor, like taking the dog out in the a.m., making the coffee, etc.

      3. Lizy*

        Yep – this. For any meal we have, I make a plate for my husband, and I take it out to him. Every time. It’s just something I enjoy doing for him.

      4. The Other Dawn*

        I agree. I don’t see anything strange about it. People sometimes, I would hope, do nice things for their spouse/partner.

    8. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I dunno, different couples have different ways to arrange household chores. I’m sure I do a lot of things around the house for Mr. Glomarization, or leave things for Mr. Glomarization to do for me, that don’t make me look particularly liberated. A wife making her husband’s lunch for him is only a single data point about how they order their lives.

      1. Just me*

        This. You’d be ill-advised to make a judgement call from one data point. I mean, how would you have reacted if you’d told her that seemed a bit old fashioned and she responded with, ‘Well, he’s been rushing around doing the school run this morning and was up doing the laundry late last night so I figured the least I could do was make him a sandwich while I was making my own’.

    9. Anon for This*

      I wouldn’t have said anything about it.

      My spouse and I have a deal where I cook, they do dishes. So I make lunches, spouse cleans up. In your colleagues case it could be old-fashioned sexism, or it could be a negotiated split of the chores. You don’t know, and shouldn’t assume.

      1. Malarkey01*

        I can honestly say one of the things that probably saved my marriage was both of us going through the household, pet, and kid related chores and dividing them up and sticking to it. We both now know and appreciate exactly what each other does and feel like it’s an equitable split- before that he had no idea ALLLLL the mental and actual labor that went into arranging the kids school, appointments, and activities and I had no clue that our outdoor landscaping didn’t just magically look so awesome but involved a ton of work).

        So yeah some of it might sound weird to an outsider who doesn’t know how everything is split but for us it’s a really equitable and happy arrangement.

    11. Pocket Mouse*

      I might express surprise, maybe or maybe not allowing it to be interpreted as asking for an explanation, e.g. “He doesn’t figure out lunch on his own?” And either look at her quizzically or follow with “Huh…” and turn back to work.

    12. Dark Macadamia*

      I wouldn’t say anything but I might not be able to prevent my face from saying some things

    13. Donkey Hotey*

      It’s a toss-up.
      To actually answer your question: I wouldn’t have said anything about it.
      Yes, I’d like to think that her lunch-making is balanced by him doing something for her. However, I deal with enough folks of earlier generations who do that sort of stuff because it is Expected and What the Wife Does ™. It drives me up the wall, but at the end of the day, it’s nunna my business.

    15. JelloStapler*

      If I had the talent of raising one eyebrow, I would apply it here. Otherwise, just nod and “Interesting”.

    16. animaniactoo*

      “Can I ask why it’s your job to make his lunch for him?” if I said anything at all.

      Vaguely possible it’s some agreed division of duties that was reasonable vs “all housework is the woman’s job” kind of thing. My question would be part curiosity, part an attempt to prompt her to think about if it was the latter situation.

      Of course, I would also be asking why she got up earlier to make it instead of making it the night before… but that’s a separate question… that should probably not be asked either unless I had more of a relationship with her.

      I might indicate that such a division of labor was not something I would agree to, but I would be expressing a personal opinion about what *I* was willing to do, not what *she* should do or be willing to do.

    17. RagingADHD*

      If you actually think he’s literally “forcing” her to make his lunch, then you should follow the advice on this site about pointimg coworkers to domestic violence resources.

      I seriously doubt that’s the case. In your position I’d MMOB about the way people who have been married 25+ years choose to show love for each other.

      She’s doing a little nice thing for him because she wants to.

    18. It's a fish, Al*

      I think you did the right thing, just letting it go. Who knows how he made her life easier.

      That being said, I am reminded about when I had my well dug. I was a day out from moving across the country, dealing with two small children, and the digger operator came in at noon, sat down in my kitchen (which was filled with boxes and newspapers for packing) and said, “just a sandwich will be great, thanks”. He was serious. There are people out there to whom the concept of dealing with their own food is completely foreign.

      1. Wisteria*

        the digger operator came in at noon, sat down in my kitchen (which was filled with boxes and newspapers for packing) and said, “just a sandwich will be great, thanks”.

        O.o

        Did you reply with, “A sandwich sounds great, pick one up for me while you are out.”?

    19. allathian*

      She’d been a homemaker for 25 years and had probably been doing most or all of the household chores, except possibly those involving power tools, for all of that time. I would probably not be able to resist saying something like “I sure hope your husband has dinner waiting for you when you get home.”

  42. MMM*

    So I consistently, repeatedly, frustratingly, get passed over for candidates with more experience. I hate it, but I understand it, because I’m trying to move into a new field, and even for entry level jobs, there are candidates with more experience or internships or skills.

    Yesterday, I had a 2nd round interview and at one point the interviewer stopped to clarify for me that this was truly an entry level role. She said something like it sounded like I had a lot of experience and she wanted to be very clear about the role. Maybe I’ve just gotten very good at selling myself? Not misrepresenting anything, but spinning how my unrelated jobs have provided me with transferable skills that would apply.

    If I were to make it to the next/final round, would it be worth revisiting? I would lose my mind if I didn’t get the job because they thought I was overqualified, when I literally miss out on every other job for being underqualified. I was thinking maybe just a general question like “are there any other concerns about my background or fit that I could address for you?”

    1. Chilipepper Attitude*

      I think you could ask, last time you had concerns about the fact that this is an entry level role, do you still have those concerns? And be prepared to talk about why you want the role, you are moving into a new field, etc.

      Maybe others have more to say about what your answer could look like?

  43. Gipsy Danger*

    I could use some advice and encouragement. I was laid off at the beginning of April due to COVID related funding cuts, and was able to get a temporary (6 months) job in the same field at the end of June. I was told when I was hired that they expect at least some of the temporary jobs (they hired for a bunch) will transition to permanent in the new year. I am determined to keep this job. I really like the department I’ve been assigned to, and while I don’t get benefits now (as I’m temporary), the benefits here are great (I live in Canada, so health insurance isn’t an issue, but this job has all the extended benefits, four weeks holidays to start, plus a great pension and short and long term disability, which will become relevant in a moment). I have been on the job 4 weeks, and things are going really well, I’m getting great feedback.

    I have struggled my whole life with chronic insomnia and am having one of the worst flares of my life right now. My psychiatrist just prescribed 4 different medications, if that puts it in perspective. I have been struggling through it, getting to work on time etc., but this week has been incredibly challenging and I was 10 minutes late to work today. When my new boss saw me I guess I looked pretty rough and she asked why I didn’t call in sick and I said because I am new and want to do well here, and because I am temporary I don’t get paid sick days (I can afford to take the day unpaid) and don’t want to be off sick within my first month! She was lovely and said that it would not affect my employment, that no one would judge me, etc., but I can’t help feeling like I don’t want to be the person who was sick so early on, plus, I have no idea if/when the insomnia is going to abate so may feel even worse in the next week or two.

    Any advice good readers?

    1. Colette*

      I’d take her at her word that it’s OK to call in sick if you need to. (I called in sick 3 weeks into my time with my current employer; I didn’t want to, but I really needed to.)

    2. Artemesia*

      You are seeing a doc so you probably have all the advice on sleep but I have a serious issue with insomnia and occasionally it flares up to pathological levels. CBT programs for sleep are the only thing that got me past it. They are hell for about 2 weeks to implement, but it changed my life. None of the drugs in my experience work well over time — and I have half a dozen too. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy retrains your relationship to bed and sleep and it does have a good track record. When mine was at its worst I had great sympathy for Michael Jackson who died because he required anesthesia to sleep.

      1. Gipsy Danger*

        I have definitely tried it all from the normal (sleep test, sleep specialist, sleep psychologist, sleep restriction, ALL the drugs), to the more out-there (TCM, acupuncture, CBD/THC), to the old wives tales (have a bath before bed! drink warm milk! etc). I also have excellent sleep hygiene.

        1. Pool Lounger*

          Just wanted to say I’m with you. I have a sleep disorder. No amount of cbd, sleep hygiene, etc does anything. Even hardcore drugs that knock most people out flat don’t make me sleepy. Trust people with insomnia, we know about all the tips and tricks. We’ve tried them all before.

    3. I'm just here for the cats*

      Oh that is rough. I can understand your thought and it was lovely that your boss said it would affect your employment. But it can affect how others see you, which is really stupid.

      I think you did everything right. If it really affects you I would recommend talking with your boss, explaining that you really love it here and are really interested in becoming pernament. And if you need a day explain that you are having a reaction to a new medication and you might need a day.
      Good luck, it sounds like you have a lovely boss.

    4. Environmental Compliance*

      I don’t have any good advice, but lots of internet hugs.

      I once started a job and immediately got a very rough flu-ish bug that knocked me out for 4 days. I had actually attempted to drive to work (as I didn’t want to miss my second day at work) and had to pull over on an interstate exit to puke. Of course, when I puke, I cry, and then was woefully calling my brand new boss to tell him I was needing a sick day or maybe more and that I was so sorry for everything.

      Boss tried really hard not to chuckle at me, told me to go home, it will be totally fine, here’s his cell, send a text if I need anything. Came back the next week and he stopped by to ask how I was doing and reassured that everything was good on the work side. The only comment I got from anyone was a “we heard you were sick! how are you doing?”.

      It may feel like everyone will notice and that you’ll be *that person*, but the majority of the time you won’t be.

  44. Fuzzy Alligator*

    Has anyone resigned just as their new boss starts? I will likely be running into that situation in the next few weeks – as I accepted a contingent offer this week and my new boss is set to start Monday. Would you go to your boss’ boss instead?

    1. I'm just here for the cats*

      I’ve never had this happen, but I think HR if you have one would be a good start. Is there a gap between when your old boss left and your new boss starts? If so is there anyone who is helping out in the interm. Maybe from a differnet department? Otherwise the boss’s boss would be ok I think.

      1. Sunflower*

        Yes- give notice to them but maybe I would expect to go through transition plans with my bosses boss heading. But definitely give notice to your direct boss.

  45. I'm just here for the cats*

    Would love to get people’s perspective on using more inclusive language without gender bias. My go to saving for a bunch of people is guys. As in “Have a good night, guys”. We have some nonbinary people and I am trying to be more thoughtful when speaking. I do better in written communication because my go-to is all “hello all, here is the meeting agenda”. (This stems from using a chat room in a previous job where if you wanted the chat to go to everyone you had to type @all. Otherwise, it would never alert people. “@all the website for product X is down. Be aware of call increases”).
    I am trying to make a conscious effort, can anyone help with wording. Folks is a bit hard for me, because where I grew up folks was used as a term for your parents. As in “Tell your folks I said hi”. Any suggestions?

    Similarly, how about non-gendered terms for getting someone’s attention. I work at the front desk for our office and I might need to get someone’s attention, but I don’t know their name, or for confidentiality, I may not want to use their name. If I was working with kids I would say hey buddy, or hey kiddo, but these are college-aged people and kiddo sounds weird for someone who is maybe less than 10 years younger than me. I don’t want to resort to miss or sir, as that sounds a bit to formal, and again gendered.

    And suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

    1. londonedit*

      For the first situations I’d just use ‘everyone’ or ‘all’ – ‘Morning all!’ ‘Have a good weekend, everyone!’

      For the second situation I’d probably go with ‘Excuse me’ and a little wave to catch the person’s attention. Or if I was going over to someone’s desk to ask something and I wasn’t sure of/didn’t want to use their name, I’d probably just say ‘Hello!’ if ‘Excuse me’ would feel too formal.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      For getting someone’s attention, there’s nothing wrong with “excuse me”, or “may I help you”, or even “hi” or “hey”. Add hand motions if you need to.

    3. Jasmine*

      I’ve been using “everyone”, “gang”, “all”, “y’all” or “peeps” as a collective noun quite a lot recently (also trying to avoid guys) and it’s been going down well. And to get someone’s attention it’s “hi there!”, which works for people of any age.

    4. Mental Lentil*

      I like “everyone” or “all”:

      “Have a good night, everyone.”
      “Have a good night, all.”

      Of course, I do from time to time just revert to “comrades” which works well in most cases.

    5. I'm just here for the cats*

      For clarification I work at a university in the couseling department. There might be times where I haven’t checked someone in yet so I don’t have their name, but I need them to do something (like put a maks on) or I might not want to use their name but I need them to come up to my desk for some reason, (paperwork or something).

      1. Wordnerd*

        “Folks” as exclusively meaning parents might be regional, but where I am, our Campus Climate department uses it pretty regularly as a non-gendered alternative. Speaking of which, if you’re on a university campus, there is likely an LGBTQ+ or Gender/Sexuality resource office you could get some advice from!

        1. I'm just here for the cats*

          Yes, one of the counselors is connected with this office. I will probably talk with them. But they are out until right before classes start. And we usually have some all staff training mid fall that often has to do with diversity and inclusion.

        2. Squirrel Nutkin*

          Seconding on both counts!

          If you want to be super-sure that people of all genders/no gender perceive that you’re explicitly including them, I’ve seen some younger people in LGBTQIAA+ spaces recently use “Folx” with an “x” when they write to underline that inclusion.

          (I know “folks” is already gender neutral, but I guess the “x” says that it’s not accidentally gender neutral but gender neutral on purpose.)

          1. I'm just here for the cats*

            I’ve seen that too, and have always wondered why the x. That makes sense. Thanks for your help!

      2. sagc*

        I don’t think I’ve ever used “hey, lady!” or “hey, dude!” to get a stranger’s attention; can you explain further why you can’t just say “Excuse me, can you put your mask on”? Or is this situations where you’re using a last name + Mr/Ms?

        1. Ya Girl*

          I think OP usually defaults to “excuse me, sir” or “ma’am” and is looking for replacement terms. Personally I’d just go with “Excuse me!”

          1. Mental Lentil*

            Could OP do something like “Person with the blue sweater…would you mind putting your mask on?” Could that work/be acceptable?

    6. Chilipepper Attitude*

      I somehow did not grow up using gendered terms in situations like this. I seem to get by very easily by saying things like excuse me or morning all. Is your concern that you are trying to find a way to be polite? Or just trying to break a habit?

      If I needed someone to come up to my desk, I’d say, “excuse me, I have some more paperwork for you.”
      If they don’t hear me the first time, I just repeat myself. “Hello, I do need to go over this with you.”

    7. MissCoco*

      I’m also not a huge fan of “folks,” my go-to is “everyone.” It works quite well in most group greeting type situations, and feels much more natural to me than “people” or “all”
      I’ve also gotten in the habit of nicknaming teams/groups as I’ve phased out “guys” so I might say “see ya, students!” Or “good morning research team”

      For getting someone’s attention, I find it pretty much has to be a very directed “excuse me,” with lots of eye contact so the person knows they are who I’m speaking to.

      1. Mental Lentil*

        I don’t mind “folks” personally, but I realize that it does tend to have regional variations in meaning like cats mentioned, and so try to avoid it. “Everyone” is always nice and inclusive.

    8. Jonah*

      I was about to say ‘folks’ but then I read further… If this would be genuine for you, would ‘y’all’ work? I’m in the south so that’s what I always use but I understand that might not work. Beyond that, you might just have to use no term at all, or maybe “have a good night everybody”.

      I have nothing for individual people, and struggle with this myself. I use sir and ma’am but if anyone has any alternatives I’d like to hear them.

      1. sagc*

        I think this is a very regional thing. I’ve never referred to someone as “sir” or “ma’am” in my professional life; generally, if I need to get someone’s attention, it’ll just be “Excuse me”. What are the scenarios where people are using “sir” and “ma’am”? I’m honestly really curious.

        1. RagingADHD*

          Where I live (also US South), sir/ma’am are the mainstream terms servicepeople use to address customers, or strangers who need to get each other’s attention in public.

          “Ma’am? Ma’am, you dropped this money over here.”

          Calling out “Excuse me” to get someone’s attention would be widely considered to be rude and pushy here, because you are not addressing the individual as a person.

          I have no idea how this local norm might adapt to be gender-neutral. Maybe, “Excuse me, friend,” but then you sound like Andy Griffith or a kindergarten teacher.

          1. I'm just here for the cats*

            “Friend” is an interesting piece. Might have to think on that. Maybe pal?

              1. allathian*

                Yeah, and at least for me, pal sounds almost as gendered as guy/s. Apart from pen pals, I’ve never heard of it applied to women or girls.

                In the 1770s, pal referred to a partner (in crime). It comes from the English Romani word pal or phal, meaning brother, probably a derivation of the Sanskrit brhata, meaning brother.

                Google “etymology of pal” for more info. Mashedradish has a post on this, but I won’t include a link because it’ll get stuck in moderation.

              2. I'm just here for the cats*

                I wish we had smiley faces on this site because that made me laugh. Just thought of a bugs bunny cartoon where he was pretending to be a gangster.

        2. I'm just here for the cats*

          Thanks for your suggestions.
          I am in upper midwest, grew up in Minnesota. Folks is usually used to refer to your parents like what I mentioned above. I also have a long history with customer service rolls, where we were often required to use sir or miss, or ma’am.

          Just saying excuse me, seems rude to me. Especially since the people I am working with may be in a vulnerable state (a student who just experienced a trauma). I would be the first person they have contact with and I do not want them to get the impression that they are not welcome. I know a lot of this has to do with tone too.

          I do sometimes revert to dear, or hun (I’m cis female), but I understand that can be problematic too, and does seem a bit too familiar.

          2. Nightengale*

            If I were a college student who may have experienced a trauma, I would 1000% prefer “excuse me” to “dear” or “hun.” From a staff worker I did not know, those would say to me infantilization or overintimacy, and the opposite of welcomed. (It’s been decades and I’m still pretty upset about college health services calling me “dearie”)

            “Excuse me” is really fine. Without the Miss/Ma’am/Sir.

    9. Donkey Hotey*

      I’ve seen “folks” used in some professional settings. It can mean more than just “parents.”
      That said, I quibble over using “guys.” I understand that in parts of the US, guys is seen as gender neutral when it’s really not. My standard suggestion is to go to a sports bar on game day and suggest that the jersey wearing fans watching the game like to have sex with guys.
      But to the point: folks, all, y’all, all-y’all (yes, there is a difference there), everyone, people.
      As to getting someone’s attention: Beyond “excuse me” or “hello there”, I have been surprised to discover that “Hey friend” works well. (More gender neutral than buddy or pal.)

    12. I'm just here for the cats*

      Thank you everyone for your suggestions. They are really appreciated.

      I know we have some diversity and inclusion trainings coming up soon, so I might be able to get more ideas soon.

      I do like the idea of “friend” as in “hello friend, can you come to the desk for a moment.” Pal might work too.
      It reminds me of a professor I had who would great the class and say “Hi Guys, Gals, and non-binary pals”. I don’t think I could pull that off.

      English is just so complex and I wish there were more friendly, nongendered ways to address a stranger that seems kind.

      1. Wisteria*

        I wouldn’t address anyone as pal. Maybe I watch too many classic movies, but that form of address used to used as a sort of veiled threat. The way your professor used it might be ok, as long as nb folks are good with being included that way. I wouldn’t say, “Hello, pal,” though.

      2. ecnaseener*

        I would be pretty weirded out by a stranger calling me “friend.” I’d think they were gearing up to proselytize at me. (But I’m not from the Midwest so maybe it’s more common there.)

  46. SurlyGirl*

    I’m having trouble revamping my resume using Alison’s advice of “accomplishments” not “job description”. The concept totally makes sense to me, but I’m having trouble thinking about what constituents an accomplishment. A lot of my job isn’t easily quantifiable (ex increased data input by 300%) and most things I would think to put down aren’t me taking initiative, they’re completing the task my boss assigned me. Does that count as an accomplishment even if what I accomplished was the expectation?

    1. Colette*

      I like to start each point by using a verb – for example, instead of “responsible for mail delivery”, I’d say “delivered mail” and then try to quantify it, if I could – e.g. “delivered mail to an average of 200 households per day”. Sometimes you can’t quantify it! But that’s how I start.

      2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        Yep. And then you can qualify the “just did things my boss told me to” by indicating that you didn’t cause problems.

        “Delivered mail to an average of 200 households per day with no customer service complaints.”

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Can you talk about your output in terms of frequency or speed? (Completed 95% of all [routine assignments] within [impressive timeframe]) or similar? Or talk about your low error rate in completing tasks?

    3. Distractinator*

      Absolutely! Those common examples bug me too, because they’re often coming across as bragging about to what degree the employee exceeded standard metrics/expectations, and I’ve never actually had a job with quantified metrics like that.
      As you’re prepping to write those resume bullets, write down a few things in notes so you can harvest your favorite phrases. What did your boss expect from the role definition? What did you do better than other people (past/present) at the job? Imagine your boss answering the magic interview question of what separates an average vs exceptional person in this role, and think about times/ways you exceeded that minimum. If your boss or coworkers were ever particularly pleased with something you did, what was it and why? If you quit tomorrow, your manager/coworker would say “gosh, we’ll really miss your ___ and I don’t know how we’ll handle ___ without you. The next [role] will really need to ___ to meet your standards”. Are there things you’re doing for your role now that aren’t part of how you initially accepted it, and did you grow your skills to meet a need, or grow the need based on your skills? If you had to write notes to help the next person do your job well, what would they include (and what of that content is worth claiming as special expertise developed by you)?
      Then when it comes to quantifying, it’s useful to give specific numbers just to ballpark what scale you’re talking about, you don’t have to be bragging about how many customers you worked with, it’s simply context for what you really did because things vary so much from place to place – does your workplace tend toward teams of 2-3 or 15-20? do projects tend to last 6 months or 6 years? does a role with one customer or a dozen? did you present a report monthly or annually?

  47. Mystic*

    Question. What do you define as recently? My family defines it as in the past 2 yrs, so I just want to double check. (I have sent something in, but I don’t want to ask for others thoughts/assistance if it is coming up/in the queue.)

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Oh, that depends so much on context. Is this for putting things in a cover letter or resume? “I recently got certified as a Llama Groomer” could be a year or two, I guess, but I’d just be specific about the date. Or is this just to answer a job requirement of “recent experience in whatever”?

      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        And I realized I totally missed the point of your question. I need more coffee…

    2. ThatGirl*

      Alison generally says give it a month or so; she occasionally answers questions that are older than that, but understands if people don’t want to wait beyond that.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I ask that you wait at least a few weeks.

      My response time really varies — sometimes it’s really fast (within a couple of days) and sometimes it can take quite a few months, since my backlog is large and I don’t answer in the order things are received. But I know it’s not reasonable to ask you to wait longer than a few weeks, especially when a response isn’t guaranteed. (Also, if you want, you can always email me and ask if I have yours in the “about to definitely answer” queue, and I can let you know.)

      1. Mystic*

        Thanks! I sent back in 2020, but since that was still when everything was going wonky, I wanted to check.

    5. Mystic*

      Ok, I got my answer, so now I will throw the actual question out.

      In June 2019, I started a new state government job, doing something I love. While I’ve worked multiple retail jobs before, this is my first Real Professional Career.

      Around Christmas/New Year, there was a lot of Overtime going around. I took the max I could, not only because I needed the extra money, but I also wanted to get into the good graces of my bosses and show I was dependable and would go above and beyond.

      It meant I went from working 40 hours a week to 50 hours a week, and I did it almost all month. I got sick about the same time (not really related to the overtime.)

      I’ve tried to set myself as being dependable, hard-working, all that stuff. I regularly help out with other people’s work, and will even assist with our seniors work if needed: if we have people out, the senior will do some of the work, and if the senior is out, I’ll do the work. In the past 4 years of working (in retail and professional), I’ve said no to one boss once. I’ve gone to work sick (not contagious, it went deeper).

      They offer overtime relatively regularly right now. We’re allowed to choose how much overtime.

      So. How do I politely decline it without it going against my dependable/professional image? I feel bad saying no, because I’m also one of the better ones working here.

      1. WorkLifeBalance*

        You should post this question as its own thread so people can see it and respond. Also, you can be dependable and professional without always saying yes to everything. Work shouldn’t be your everything, and people aren’t going to look down on your for saying no. If they are that may be a sign of a toxic environment.

      2. animaniactoo*

        Just say “Oh, I’m sorry, I’m not able to put in more time this week”. and leave it there. You need no reasons. Just a quick reply on turning it down (if you actually even need to turn it down vs simply not signing up for it).

        Dependable & professional – your image will remain in good stead as long as you’re not showing up late/taking excessive breaks/or other unprofessional *on the clock* behavior.

      3. ecnaseener*

        I’m wondering if your idea of dependable/professional has been colored by your retail experience — are you used to “dependable” being code for “having no scheduling constraints whatsoever, happy to pick up as many shifts as possible” ?

        In most jobs (and I’m guessing in your new job) you can be dependable by doing what you say you’re going to do — you don’t have to do the absolute most possible.

      1. animaniactoo*

        Apparently it helps to refresh the page before answering… lol. Glad to see my answer matches up with the actual timeframe.

  48. Mimmy*

    I’m thinking of applying for a part-time job that is more in line with my career goals than my current position with a state-run voc rehab center, which is also part-time. There are a couple of issues I have though: 1) I am WAY overqualified in terms of education and 2) the pay is lower than what I make now. (actually, I’m overqualified for my current job too! Long story)

    I am currently working on a masters degree related to the field I’m interested in (higher education) and expect to finish this coming Spring, after which I will be seeking full-time employment. My rationale for applying for this one part-time job are: 1) to get more hands-on experience in this new field and 2) I want to stay part-time while I’m still in school so that I don’t get overwhelmed.

    I should mention that the Masters degree offers internship opportunities but it is not required. I do plan to go this route in the spring if I don’t find a PT job before the fall.

    Any advice or swift, gentle kicks in the rear are appreciated!

    1. animaniactoo*

      Well… questions…

      Can you afford the lower pay? Is the pay commensurate with what the position actually is?

      Will the hands-on experience reallytranslate to better/sooner job opportunities/salary? Or is this just your through process, that it might? If the latter, you should definitely do some research on that.

    2. J.B.*

      Part time jobs are pretty normal for people in school, so I would think go for it, with your explanation of getting practical experience.

  49. NeedVirtualGameIdeasForWork....Please*

    Months and months ago there was a thread where a bunch of you all talked about virtual escape rooms/scavenger hunts, etc… and I took one look at that thread and went to my boss…. several weeks later I had created a virtual escape room and we did it during a team meeting – and it seemed like people REALLY loved it.

    So… I was talking to my boss and we were talking about doing another one, but I’m a bit stumped. I am NOT a librarian, but my interests tend towards what a stereotypical librarian goes for (reading, cats, gardening, etc…) and I struggled really hard last time to come up with hints and stuff that would appeal to a wide range of people. (Like, I used a Football jersey number for one clue… etc…). Does anyone have any fun, work-appropriate suggestions? :D

    Other work-appropriate virtual game ideas are welcomed too…. It’s a team of about 50; but we will likely break up into small groups.

    1. Colette*

      I do virtual escape rooms for fundraiser (https://guidestravel.home.blog/escape-rooms-for-the-public/). I assume you’re using a google form? You could do pictures where they have to find things (e.g. your clue is spiders, bats, gnomes, and you have a picture where they have to find how many of them are hidden to get to the next clue). You can do custom jigsaw puzzles from a picture with a message in it. You can use a code or a pigpen cipher or something that requires them to decode, rather than knowing information.

      I’d suggest picking a setting (e.g. carnival, farm, ocean) and basing your clues on escaping that setting.

      1. NeedVirtualGameIdeasForWork....Please*

        Colette – I hadn’t thought about finding things IN the image. Awesome. Last time I made it a virtual office – but all of the clues were trivia based-ish. This definitely helps. I also need to go check out your link! :)

        1. Colette*

          There’s also the puzzles like this:
          apple + apple = 8
          apple + pear = 11
          pear + banana = 8

          And then your clue is apple pear banana.

        2. Colette*

          Feel free to email me via the address on the page and I can give you access to some of the puzzles.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      This sounds like a good opportunity to recruit someone onto your game planning committee – someone who is interested in completely different things and has a different set of trivial knowledge to pull from.

      1. NeedVirtualGameIdeasForWork....Please*

        I wish! Our team is sooooo slammed right now. This will be management’s way of giving them an hour break. That’s why I figured I’d ask strangers for random ideas :D I’ll be working on this during the weekend, myself, it’s not even something I have time for with all my other duties (but seriously, I had SO much fun with the last one, that it was a stress relief for me and because *I* created it (and not during work hours; I shared it with my friends). I’m just… stumped right now.

    4. Almost Academic*

      Puzzled pint is a similar flavor of puzzles to what you find in escape rooms. They keep an archive of previous month’s puzzles on their website – you could look into that and see if any would work for what you want to plan? Huge variety of themes across different months.

  50. Fabulous*

    How do you know you’re in the “right” profession? I’ve definitely stumbled into my current role, but I know I’ve definitely found my niche. I do things that excite me and that I’m good at, but there are also some aspects of my role that I’m not so keen on.

    I don’t get to do a ton of project development (I just get other people’s projects to work on) and I’ve found that, since our most recent reorganization, I don’t have as much autonomy in my role as I once did – there’s now a lot of “we’ve always done it this way so it’s obviously best” type of pushback, and it’s really demoralizing. Also, now that I have a counterpart, Jane, I’ve come to realize where my strengths and weaknesses lie a bit more (compared to Jane) and I’m not sure that I’m a total fit for my “new” role. Say, our job entails ABCXYZ. I’m great at ABC, but feeling stifled on it. Jane is great at XYZ, but she’s close to retirement age, and I need a lot of development in this area.

    Should I suck it up and work on my XYZ skills to eventually replace Jane when she retires in 1-2 years, or should I start looking at other positions that focus solely on ABC?

    1. animaniactoo*

      There are always going to be parts of your job that you’re not too keen on… the question is… do you outright hate XYZ stuff and would be unhappy to incorporate more of that into your job?

      If so, then yes, you should probably look for other positions that focus solely on ABC… with one caveat. It may be useful to stay where you are now in order to get more experience/a close-up look at XYZ, because it can make you stronger at ABC if you have a better view of XYZ.

  51. Middle Manager*

    I think I may be burnt out past the point of no return in my job. I know everything was a dumpster fire in 2020, but even so, our understaffing and general dysfunction buckled under the immense workload increase of COVID beyond what I see in other organizations around us. I can care anymore, find myself taking too many breaks in the day bc I can’t deal, working absurdly late to make up the time and ending up working over my hours then, being angry at every little thing, on and on.

    Is there anything I can do to come back from this or does there come a point you just have to admit defeat and move on? I love the work I do, it’s truly a passion for me, but the conditions under which we’ve been asked to do it for 18 months have just become unbearable.

    1. Damn it, Hardison!*

      For me, my moment of clarity came when I realized that even if some of the things that were problematic changed, I was just done with my workplace. They could have offered me a title bump and a raise and I still wouldn’t want to stay there. With the COVID disruptions I think it’s harder to figure out what’s normal in the workplace, but maybe you can think about what you expect to change or not and whether your satisfaction in the job hinges on whether or not those changes will make it better.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Why not look around and see what else is out there? You aren’t immediately committing to leave just by job hunting, but it gives you the chance to see if there’s something better out there.

      I know how hard it can be to leave a job that used to be amazing, but no longer is. I’ve been there, and I stayed at a job far longer than I should have because I kept hoping that if I just tried hard enough things would be ok again. Instead I worked myself literally sick, dry-heaved from stress every morning, cried constantly, all while pulling 14 hour days and being told it wasn’t enough. I don’t know what your background is, but I had been raised to think that if you worked/tried hard enough everything would always work out, so if something wasn’t working out it meant you weren’t working/trying hard enough. I know now (with the benefit of hindsight and therapy) that that mentality is ridiculous. You can do everything right and still not win. Quitting a job doesn’t mean admitting defeat – it means doing what’s best for yourself. Recognizing a bad situation and removing yourself from it is not failure.

      You can mourn what used to be, but it’s ok to move on! And it most certainly would not be “admitting defeat” – it’s admitting you deserve better.

    3. ferrina*

      Is anything changing? The conditions you describe are absolutely unsustainable and require things that are way outside your control. So can you see those changes being made? Not just talked about or vaguely promised, but actually made?

      You ask if you can come back from this, and you might be able to, but without real change at your organization, you’ll just end up in the same place again.

      A Simple Narwhal said it well- quitting a job isn’t “admitting defeat”. It’s reclaiming yourself. You do not need to sacrifice yourself for this organization. There are so many other ways that you can pursue a passion and/or make a difference that won’t require this same horrible circumstance. It may take some time to find your next position, so save your strength and take breaks. It’s okay to do the bare minimum while you work on your exit!
      Good luck!

    4. Middle Manager #2*

      Wow I came here to post almost exactly this, with almost exactly the same username.

      I’ve been at my job for 7 years, but the past 18 months have seen unprecedented staff turnover (we just had 4 people leave within the last month) and the extra work has mostly all fallen on me because I was the only person left in any semblance of a leadership role. We finally have new management and I truly do think there are great plans in the works for the future, but…I’m tired. My position would play a pivotal role in all of these future plans and I just don’t have the enthusiasm or the energy.

      Have you been thinking about quitting without anything else lined up? That’s where I am, and I never expected to feel that way about this job.

      1. Middle Manager*

        Hey Middle Manager #2! So sorry you are in a similar spot. I have totally considered just quitting, but I’m in the pretty rare position of having a job with a pension. I’m just about a year out from it vesting, so feel like that is strong incentive to try to hang in. But I will definitely be on an aggressive job hunt in six months or so when that vesting date is coming up.

        Hoping things get better for both of us soon!

  52. Switzerland!*

    The vast majority of my team is in Switzerland, including my boss. I am FINALLY going to meet them next month!

    We will probably be going hiking for a team bonding activity. Swiss culture is conservative, and dress is historically conservative (blazer optional, but keep one handy kind of culture from what I’ve heard. The US office is slight more casual).

    My athletic shorts reveal about half of my thigh. What do I bring to go hiking with my boss and his boss? Are my normal shorts ok? Are leggings ok? I’m the only female so I can’t ask anybody else. Help!

    1. Cyclist*

      If you have the budget, there are some very comfortable lightweight loose fitting hiking pants out there (REI Co-Op, prAna, Columbia, and such) that might make you feel comfortable. I have no insight to Swiss hiking norms, but I come into work in tight-fitting biking clothes and change into professional suits, so my boss has seen me in lycra and it hasn’t been an issue.

    3. PeanutButter*

      https://www.rei.com/c/convertible-pants ta daa! They are also very nice because if your hike has significant elevation change the temp can change rapidly! I’ve started a hike at 80F and within an hour was in the upper 30s because of cold weather coming down the mountain while I was going up. I usually wear compression shorts or capris underneath them to combat chafing.

    4. PeanutButter*

      Look for “convertible hiking pants” on REI’s (or any outdoor company’s) website. They have zip off lower legs, which can be very nice when hiking mountainous terrain, as the weather can change abruptly.

    5. Purple Penguin*

      For alpine hiking, I’d wear something that covers your legs. You don’t want to be bitten by critters or scratched by some thorny plant. Hiking pants would be your best best or more conservative leggings (think black rather than bright designs).

    6. Emma2*

      I would tend towards long hiking trousers – if I was choosing between shorts and leggings, I would go with the leggings. Depending on where you are hiking, shorts are not ideal (they don’t protect your legs from scratches, ticks, etc).
      I work in Europe, but any hiking I do is totally unconnected to work (and typically in the UK or Ireland). For what it is worth, I would not feel comfortable wearing shorts that revealed half my thigh on a hike here if it was work connected – I don’t know how much of this is personal and how much is ingrained cultural norms. To be fair, I also would not hike in shorts away from work because I don’t think they are as sensible as hiking trousers. I have been trying to think and don’t believe I typically see other women wearing shorts while hiking (the exception might be sometimes seeing older women in longer, looser utility-style shorts).

    7. Donkey Hotey*

      Another alternative would be the convertible hiking pants that zip off into shorts.
      That way, if you show up and they’re in shorts, you can be in shorts too. Otherwise, pants.

    8. Dark Macadamia*

      I usually hike in athletic leggings and would wear them for a work hike too, but if you’d be buying something regardless you might want to choose the less fitted type of pants others are describing. I wouldn’t hike in shorts regardless of who I’m with because I prefer more coverage from plants/bugs/my own thighs lol

    9. Anonymous Hippo*

      Maybe I’m thinking of hiking in more rural settings, but I’d not want to wear short pants in the woods for a lot more reasons than modestly. I’d worry about bugs and scratches. Light weight wicking hiking pants are great.

    10. RagingADHD*

      Not sure how close Swiss culture (and weather) is to German, but when we went hiking with our friends in Germany, they all wore jeans or long cargo-type pants with proper hiking socks and boots. On top, they generally layered a long-sleeve button shirt over a tee or tank.

      They aren’t super-conservative in terms of modesty, but they take hiking very seriously and dress for utility.

    11. ronda*

      since it is presumably a different climate than you are in, ask based on that rather than “dress-code” type of question.
      ~ what type of clothing would a woman need for the type of hike you are planning?

  53. Frustrated Consultant*

    What is a good way to push back on a project that you find unethical? For context: I’m in a leadership role at a consultancy. I’m happy to work in the majority of industries, however our BD team has been pitching a client that does something that I find unethical/morally reprehensible (something along the lines of puppy sales). What is a good way to push back on this client?

    For more context: we’re pretty successful in our sales efforts and are not hurting for clients or revenue at this point.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      If you can find an example of a company that got caught up in a client’s bad press, you could use that as an example. “I’m concerned we could be harmed by association, just like Random Consulting was when that whole Sucracorp thing blew up.” However, if the client’s business isn’t close to universally reprehensible (lots of people are just fine with puppy sales) you may be fighting a losing battle.

    2. Policy Wonk.*

      Do you not want to work on it yourself, or do you not want the consultancy to take it on?

      If the first, just make that clear – that if the BD team lands the client, you will not be working on it. At all. (That may be enough to lead to the second, if your partners are like-minded.)

      If the second, you need to say that now, but if your partners don’t have the same concerns you may find yourself looking for a new gig.

  54. GigglyPuff*

    Question about EAP. I’ve never used one but the post a while ago talking about EAPs got me thinking maybe they could help.

    I’ve been diagnosed with ADHD since I was a teenager, so 15ish years but beyond medication (which I’m not on anymore) and a few accommodations at school, never received any kind of support for it, and I’m finding it really impacts my personal life in a way that’s becoming harmful to another chronic illness. I’d like to start seeing a therapist who specializes in ADHD, especially one who understands executive dysfunction. But Google hasn’t helped at all when trying to find one near me. I’ve had bad luck at my current medication maintenance medical practice and someone who claimed to specialize in ADHD didn’t even know what executive dysfunction was.

    Would an EAP be able to help find a therapist who specialized in adult ADHD? Even narrow it down to a female therapist? TIA

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Some EAPs will offer that level of detail. At a minimum, they ought to get you a list of therapists who are seeing new clients, are nearby, etc. You don’t have anything to lose by giving them a call.

    2. Bon voyage*

      This sounds like something an EAP could do! Some insurance providers also have a similar service (mine has a phone line for this sort of matching patients with providers based on criteria like this, ymmv).

    3. Decidedly Me*

      Probably, but from a current search myself with a service through my insurance, they said that was one of the harder specialties to find a match for.

    4. cmcinnyc*

      I called our EAP during COVID specifically looking for someone specializing in stress relief. I got paired with some random guy, a traditional therapist. I have zero interest in traditional therapy. My sense was that the intake people aren’t really trained or qualified to sort through exactly what you need and pair it with what they’ve got. It was more like my name got fed in to the system and the next person with availability took it. Not worthless, but close.

    5. PeanutButter*

      I used my health insurance’s “Behavioral Health Helpline” to find one for an initial diagnosis. It still took about 6 months from my first call to getting on meds (since I had to be diagnosed by a psychologist before getting a psych referral from my GP to get medication). But they at least had a list for me start calling.

    6. Dino*

      Just two weeks ago I called our EAP to ask for help finding a therapist specializing in a specific (yet unfortunately common) traumatic experience. The person who answered said I’d get whomever she could find. Not helpful. So YMMV depending on which EAP your company uses.

    7. Wisteria*

      Maybe, maybe not. My experience with looking for a therapist experienced with adult women on the spectrum was similar to cmcinnyc’s. In fact, I’m pretty sure they picked the top person from an alphabetized list. It’s worth a shot, but definitely look through the people your insurance has in network yourself, too.

    8. CatCat*

      I think this is something an EAP could do. I used an EAP for the first time this and they were so helpful in connecting me with a therapist. Do it!

    9. Momma Bear*

      You still have to do your research because many EAPs will just give you a list based loosely on your criteria but nothing about how good they are/reviews. BUT they may help you uncover someone you might not have otherwise found. EAPs also generally give you a few sessions to get started so you can check out someone “for free”. However, you’ll want to confirm before getting too deep that they otherwise take your insurance. Psychology Today may be a good resource, too.

    10. J.B.*

      I have never had much luck with EAPs. Finding a therapist can always be tricky, even more so finding someone in network. Unfortunately your best bet is normally to collect recommendations from your primary, referral sites, and then call one by one.

  55. OyHiOh*

    I was on the receiving end of a really effective networking technique this week and wanted to share. The person I was talking with expressed sincere interest in the thing I wanted to share with them, then said we should meet for coffee to talk about it more. “We shouldn’t look up in two weeks and realize we haven’t gotten together yet. Tell you what, the person who makes the first contact gets treated by the other.” I emailed this person on Monday morning while clearing through my weekend email list and so, I’m the one getting coffee paid for later today.

    I have filed the “first to contact gets treated” away in my repertoire of ways to develop meaningful connections. As with most techniques, it’s not perfect and there are plenty of situations where it wouldn’t be appropriate.

  56. anonforthis*

    Has anyone lost interest in career advancement during the pandemic? I like my current job, but I realize now that my main aim for working is towards retirement. I don’t care anymore about working towards a prestigious role or company. It’s actually kind of a relief not having to worry about things like networking or making “connections” or too much about what my boss thinks of me. Of course, I will have to worry about these things to a certain extent to continue working until I retire.

    1. Chilipepper Attitude*

      Same!
      My workplace is not managed all that well, including favoritism about promotions, but the pay is fine.
      Instead of worrying about navigating it all, I just decided I’m here for the money till I retire.

      Now I really feel, not my monkeys, not my circus and I just ignore all the crap and thinking about navigating anything, I’m just here for me (and the patrons). Its so much nicer!

    2. Overeducated*

      Sort of. I don’t think it’s for life, but I definitely still feel like I’m just treading water and trying to keep my head above the surface, and I don’t have the capacity to think about longer term goals or ambitious projects. Just working for the sake of paying the bills and keeping health insurance right now. This is absolutely related to the fact that I haven’t had full time childcare/school for my children for 16 months.

    3. Malarkey01*

      Same, but I’m not sure if it’s temporary or permanent. Soooo many areas of my life right feel like “this thing now is fine but I don’t have the mental energy or desire to do more”. I’m sort of goal-ed out which I think is partly pandemic languishing, partly reassessing what I like and don’t, and partly I need time to recover from this still ongoing here dumpster fire so no need to stress.

      I did do the thing where you put a bean for every month until retirement into a glass thing- it’s actually shocking how much smaller the pile is than expected.

    4. Donkey Hotey*

      For me, it was the triple-threat of pandemic, plus turning 50, plus realizing that the job I have, while not thrilling by any measure) will basically continue to have me for as long as I want the job.
      So yes, debts are paid, maxing the IRA, and enjoying the hell out of my hobbies.
      To flip the old recruiting slogan: It’s not an adventure, it’s just a job.

    5. Teapot Repair Technician*

      Yes! I don’t know if it had anything to do with the pandemic or my age (45), but in the last year I realized I’m no longer interested in my career and happy to find myself on a glide path to retirement.

      The stock market may also have helped. For the first time in a long time my 401k has gotten on track for retirement at 65.

    6. animaniactoo*

      Yeah. There really isn’t anywhere upward to go within my company, and while it might be interesting to move upward elsewhere, I am good at what I currently do and I have an amazing amount of job security and an actual pension available when I retire (fairly unheard of for my line of work).

      So… I am definitely in the “Just keep going until retirement” mindset.

    7. yesss*

      100%. I am not close to retirement age but I feel totally apathetic toward chasing goals and working to improve my situation with “extracurricular” efforts like training or reading professional books. my company has pretty codified quarterly and mid-year and yearly check-ins and i have to write goals and write about my progress toward them and i really just don’t care enough. i just want to go with the flow and work hard day to day and whatever happens, happens. this attitude may be because i did recently get a promotion due to my prior efforts so maybe i just want to take a break.

    8. allathian*

      I’m an experienced IC with no room for advancement with my current employer, and I’m fine with that. I work for the government in Finland and basically can’t be fired unless I do something really egregious or break the law. They can eliminate my position, but they can’t just decide to fire me and hire someone else to do the same job.

      To be fair, though, I’ve pretty much felt the same way since I was hired 14 years ago, it’s got nothing to do with the pandemic. My organization does encourage people to do work rotations at other governmental agencies, and I’m open to the possibility of doing that at some point in the future.

  57. An anxious mess*

    I’m going to attempt to make this as not confusing as possible.

    I work in two libraries, Library 1 and Library 2. Between the two, I work every weekday at one or the other. (Thankfully not all 8 hour days.)

    At Library 1, I work every other Saturday and every fifth Sunday. Depending on the rotation, my weekends might not be both days, but I give 2 my rotations and whatever weekend I have free, I work there, and I work the full weekend. So, I might not get a full weekend off each month. It’s a lot but I’ve made my peace with it. It’s not going to be forever. Until……

    2 just got a new building and my department has their own floor. Because of this, they might be changing up the rotation and having two people there on Sunday’s, although nothing is final. I don’t know if it’s whoever works on Saturday’s would be working on that Sunday, but I can’t do that. I can’t work three full weekends each month, especially because I don’t get makeup days off because I’m part-time.

    I was also hired at L1 at 19 hours a week (two weekdays and the Saturday’s, I think the Sunday’s are like bonus hours) and I don’t know if working two Sunday’s would affect that but I don’t want to take like a half day to make up. I also wouldn’t get a full day off.

    Anyway. Is there a way for me to go to my manager at L2 and be like “so I can’t do this”? I know it’s not all about me, but would I be out of line in mentioning it? And if not, what do I say?

    1. An anxious mess*

      Sorry sorry, L1 is the new building one and the one with the possibly changing Sunday’s.

    2. Mental Lentil*

      You’re not out of line. If I’m understanding things correctly, this means that you would essentially be working at least 21 days in a row on occasion? Even for part-time work, you still need a day off.

      1. An anxious mess*

        That’s right! :’)

        Honestly had I had this schedule at L1, I probably wouldn’t have applied for 2 (or at least not accepted once I knew the weekend rotations).

        1. Mental Lentil*

          I would lead with this information, then. “I’m sorry, but this new schedule at L2 means I could be working 21 days in a row. How can we adjust things so that this doesn’t happen?”

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      If you were hired for a specific number of hours, can you tell them you’re not able to go over that amount?

      1. An anxious mess*

        Yeah I might also mention that. My new boss (well, relatively new, less than a year) is a lot more strict about us going over our hours, so if I get any kind of pushback, I’ll go with this.

        I did this to myself, but only to a point.

    4. Long Furby*

      It’s (unfortunately) very common for library workers to need to work multiple jobs to cobble together a full schedule. Not out of line at all and shouldn’t be a big shock to your boss. Just tell them matter-of-factly, “As you know I also work a Library 2” (or even just, as you know I work another job) “so my availability here is limited to 2 weekends a month.” The WHY of your limited availability, in terms of it being another shift or needed off-time to actually live your life, doesn’t matter. You still have a limited availability.

      You can enter a dialogue about what is reasonable for both sides after that, but this is a totally fair statement to make on your end.

      1. An anxious mess*

        Thank you, I like this too! My boss knows I work another job, but I’m not sure knows that my weekends there depend on my weekends at L1.

      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        I like this. You don’t need get into the details (especially since they might say “but you’re only working part time, so why does it matter how many days in a row you work?”), just let them know that you’re not available for a new schedule.

        1. An anxious mess*

          Thank you!

          Should I go to my boss now and be like “I know you don’t know the Sunday schedule yet but….” Or should I wait? We’re dealing with a lot with the new building, but I’m assuming she’ll have to figure out our Sunday rotation soon cause we start that in September.

          Also – would it be worth it to mention that had this possible schedule been the case, I wouldn’t have applied for a second job? Or is that not relevant? I just don’t want her to be like “well you did this to yourself.” Which I did, but not to this (granted possible) extent.

          1. Long Furby*

            Do you have regular meeting or encounters with your boss at all? This is something you could bring up pretty naturally (“By the way, I want to make sure you know my availability when looking at putting together schedules for the new building, when should I get that to you?”)

            I don’t think you need to lead with the latter, it seems a bit (hopefully unnecessarily) combative to me to lead with. Like I sad multiple jobs is NOT an usual thing in libraries at all! Although you seem pretty worried she’s going to be combative back to you, so maybe keep it in your back pocket:

            “Sorry boss, as you know I work another job so I won’t be available on Sundays.”
            “Well why would you get another job when we were getting a new building?”
            “I took the second job before we started this project and when my hours were capped at 21, so that is what my availability is set around.”

            As Alison says, employers can change their terms at any time, but you aren’t a machine that just works and sits at home waiting to work. It’s not that wild that you may need to enter a dialogue about what the new terms are.

            1. An anxious mess*

              I don’t technically have scheduled meetings with her, but I do see her often enough.

              And yeah she’s…. There are some managers I’ve had where I would feel comfortable bringing an issue like this up, but I don’t feel like that with her. I’m worried she might get combative or unhappy or annoyed or something like that.

              But my schedule at L2 is based around my schedule at L1, something I made sure L2 knew when I had my first round of interviews. I can’t work 21 days in a row.

              1. Long Furby*

                I once had a library director who made a very poor taste, potentially triggering joke when I handed in my resignation. (“If you leave I might as well just go hang myself from a tree outside!”)

                The best advice I can offer you is take a deep breath, keep yourself matter-of-fact and unemotional (these types bring enough emotion to a situation for both of you) and divert immediately into being solution oriented. For me it was “Here’s my notice, now lets talk about transition planning.”

                For you, make it being as “helpful” as possible within the boundaries – like I said, “When I should I get I get you my availability for the scheduling?” or whatever would be appropriate.

                1. An anxious mess*

                  Oh yikes, wow, I’m so sorry that happened to you. That’s not okay.

                  But thank you for the advice! I am aware that even if I bring this up, my boss at L1 might be like “too bad, this is the schedule, deal with it,” which won’t be good but at least I know I tried. If that happens, I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it…..

                  Again, though, thank you. :)

          2. animaniactoo*

            Hmmm. I think you could ask to touchbase and say something like “I know nothing is finalized yet, but do you have an idea what’s under consideration for the Sunday schedule? I’m concerned about a conflict with my other job and would like to figure out if there will be any issues.”

    5. Zephy*

      I think you have standing to talk to your manager at either or both libraries to discuss scheduling. I’d start by asking L1’s manager about what the new schedule will look like once the new building is open. She may not know yet but it’s good to be proactive and ask. Do your jobs each know about the other, like L1 knows that you wouldn’t generally be available to cover a shift during the week outside of your 2 days that you normally work because you have a second job elsewhere? It’s OK to tell them, if they don’t, especially L1 – a place that would begrudge you for having a second job when they hired you for a measly NINETEEN HOURS per week is out of their damn mind.

      1. An anxious mess*

        They do know about each other. I don’t know to what extent L1 knows about L2 beyond the fact that it exists, but both my bosses at my jobs are aware I have another job.

        But I will say, I don’t plan on talking to L2 about my schedule, just because I know I won’t be able to get out of the weekend rotation. And I wouldn’t want to, that’s not fair to my coworkers, and I agreed to work a weekend when I was hired.

        I am going to talk to L1, because that is very different from the schedule I agreed to when I was hired. Even if I didn’t have a second job, I wouldn’t want to work 2 full weekends a month. Again, nothing is final, but the fact that they mentioned they might schedule two people on Sundays is what’s making me wonder how they’re going to schedule us.

    7. Chilipepper Attitude*

      You need to go to the supervisor and ask what the changes in building mean for you.
      Let her know your availability and ask her what her expectations are for your hours.

  58. Sanibel Island*

    After much deliberating, consideration, and all the like, I have decided I’m going to go solo! I’m still keeping the day job, and working towards my business in my spare time. Or, rather, businesses.

    I had the idea of creating a business entity, particularly an LLC with just a generic name, and doing a variety of work through the LLC. Whether it be freelance work, personal creative projects, or general business dealings and services.

    For my lone wolves out there, did you create an authentic business name to work under, get payment through, etc.? Or did you just start freelancing on your own and worried about the business entity later?

    1. Mental Lentil*

      Yes, but this was back in the old days when you needed a DBA to get a business checking account. You can run a business account through Stripe, Square, or PayPal these days, I do believe.

      But I think it’s better to keep everything as legitimately business-like as possible from the get-go: business name, licenses, whatever. Because if it becomes very successful, it’s easier to not have to transition everything over later. (And also less chance of getting in trouble with the IRS.)

    2. A business librarian*

      protect yourself and incorporate. Check out the Business Guide from the Small Business Administration (easily google-able), and consider contacting your local public library for guidance on additional resources for starting an LLC and getting connected to other small business owners in your area.

    3. D3*

      I would 100% start as an LLC if you can afford it (price varies WIDELY from state to state) and also keep all money separate. Do not pay business expenses from personal accounts, or use your business account to go grocery shopping.
      You can always pay yourself (move $$ from business to personal) or even infuse cash to your business if you need to (move $$ from personal to business)
      Having the separation makes it CRYSTAL CLEAR if your business is making money – or not. It also is important for maintaining the protections of incorporation.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Call a CPA in your local jurisdiction. You may or may not need (or be able to afford) a business entity right away.

      In my jurisdiction, LLCs cost multi-thousands of $ to form, and require a significant ongoing investment of time and money annually to remain in compliance. If you don’t stay in compliance, you might as well not have the entity at all, because you lose most of the legal protection. Starting an entity earlier than you need to can hold you back from being profitable early on, in a situation like that.

      At the same time, in my jurisdiction, many types of freelance work don’t require any formal DBA or licensing. And my work creates no liability for me, beyond possibly having to issue a refund.

      If I lived five miles away in the next municipality, I’d have to have at least a business license and DBA.

      This is entirely a numbers decision, and the numbers are hyperlocal.

    5. beach read*

      Stop in to your Bank and ask if they have an inhouse or locally stationed Business Banking Officer. Not only can they advise you as to banking products for your business, they know ALL the local businesses in town as well as networking groups that you may be interested in joining. They may be able to make a referral for a CPA and or Attorney too.

  59. On Fire*

    Many thanks for the protege letter! — for an unusual reason. I’ve been trying to remember that word for *weeks* now, and it has remain annoyingly out of reach. Thank you to AAM and the OP for curing my brain blank!

  60. cubone*

    My old job went remote in March 2020 (for you know, reasons). When it started to be clear WFH would be longer term than expected, they decided to bump up an office reno that was scheduled for a few years down the road. We were all given a time to come in, take home anything else we needed, and box up stuff to be stored during the reno. I took home 90% of stuff, but left a box of “office” things I didn’t need at home (eg. nice shoes I kept at my desk for formal meetings, desk stuff I didn’t have room for at home or already had, etc.) for storage.

    At the time, I had no plans to leave but COVID brought out some really awful, festering issues with our leadership and I found a new job. My leaving was polite and cordial, but I would imagine a lot of people could infer I was unhappy (this company is definitely experiencing The Great Resignation). The HR manager told me in my exit interview she’d get in touch when I could come pick up my box of stuff (as it was inaccessible in storage).

    I know from former-colleague-friends they’re planning their post-reno return to work and I am hit with how much I REALLY do not want to go back into that office and possibly run into some people I’d prefer to never see again in my life. But I definitely want that stuff back.

    Is it cowardly to ask one of my former work friends to pick up my stuff? We’re close, I’m certain they would say yes (and I would meet them somewhere close, pay for a taxi or whatever etc.). The asking isn’t the issue as much as I know I will have to tell the HR manager they’ll be picking my stuff up for me and I think there’s a very likely chance this will get spread around as gossip. But if I go pick it up myself, the reception desk is central to the very open office plan and I think it’s very unlikely I can sneak in and out without having to make fake polite chats with people who were cruel and I just …. really don’t want to interact with.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      You have another job, so it’s reasonable to ask that you be able to grab that stuff off-hours.

      1. cubone*

        ………. can’t believe I hadn’t thought about this, lol. Also a great idea because there are a couple people who work off hours for the work they do, and they’re people I’d actually be okay saying hi to.

        1. ronda*

          I would think your friend picked it up for you cause you were too busy to come by work. but I am not very gossip inclined.

    2. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Do it! Who cares if some people gossip about it (I mean, that’s pretty boring gossip)? You don’t like them or care about their opinion, so do what’s best for you.

      1. cubone*

        Totally on the nose. You know how some people just give you the yikes and the thought of them is icky? That’s kind of how I feel in this situation. I’d honestly rather be gossiped about than have to pretend to nicely say hello to some of them. thanks!

      1. cubone*

        It might be, but I would imagine they would ask me to pay for it since I’m located very close to the office. But maybe they would forget/not bring that up. I obviously wish I hadn’t left anything, but more than that I wish I had handled it differently in my exit and got a commitment to ship (or even pushed a bit more for getting it out of storage now, when no one but the receptionist is in).

    4. Momma Bear*

      It is not uncommon for companies to box up someone’s desk when necessary and mail it to them/mail it to their family. If you can’t get a friend to get it, HR should have a protocol for this. I’d ask if it could be shipped. The last time I was involved in something like this, we had two people inventorying the items to ensure nothing was stolen and there was a record of all items before shipping. One copy of the contents went in the box and one stayed in the office for a few months in case there was any question.

  61. Blarg*

    Thanks to everyone who offered support and suggestions in last week’s post as I tried to navigate my “iconic” [per my coworker yesterday] cat’s recent terminal diagnosis.

    I took the advice to send an email to partners who’d engaged with her during meetings. And I’m so glad I did! I got the most heartwarming responses — people shared their own stories of their animals and also lots of encouragement for me. Everyone has been super respectful of the boundary I asked for (not asking about her on meetings so I don’t burst into tears).

    And my cat seems to be doing … fine? I know we’re in a honeymoon period but I will take it. We’re having a good time together and I’m trying not to dwell on the future.

    Thanks for all the great guidance and support.

    1. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I’m so sorry to hear about your kitty. I’m glad your coworkers responses have been so supportive.

    2. ferrina*

      Hugs to you and ear scritches to your cat! Glad to hear it’s feeling well and that your coworkers are respecting your boundaries. Thanks for the update!

    3. allathian*

      Glad to hear your cat is doing better, even if you know it’s only a temporary improvement. Kudos to your wonderful coworkers who respect your boundary.

  62. SophieChotek*

    For Amethyst
    Last week you asked about your sister who is deaf and looking for WFH
    Was wondering how that was going
    Been thinking on/off about your query all last week, as I am hard of hearing and also looking for work at the moment
    Best!

    1. Terp*

      Amethyst and Sophie,

      Not sure what fields you’re looking for, but check out positions with video relay service providers to see if any job titles are a good fit. Lots of roles can be WFH, and any company worth working for has no qualms about hiring and implementing accommodations for deaf and hard of hearing employees.

      1. Momma Bear*

        I wonder – what about federal jobs? A lot of US-based federal work has a WFH option (she may need to go into an office x times per pay period) and they may be more accommodating than a public company.

    2. Anono-me*

      I know that it is a bit cliche for people with hearing problems, but the Post Office is usually a better than average place to work if you are concerned about discrimination. (And I know Amethyst’s sister would prefer WFH, but maybe this would be a step in a better direction or a good fit for someone else.)

  63. Confused Anon*

    How to you deal with a condescending and patronizing coworker? “Maria” is always talking down to me/treating me like a child. We’re technically on the same “level”, but she has been here longer and has a um, stronger personality.

    1. cubone*

      I feel like there’s been similar q’s on this site, so maybe do a quick search for better advice than mine? But I’d say to just work on projecting an air of neutral, politeness with firm boundaries of what you will and won’t discuss with this coworker. Eg. don’t share any challenges or frustrations you’re having with your work if you don’t need to, so they can’t justify whatever they’re telling themselves in their head. If they give unsolicited advice or say something patronizing, just a “I’ve got this under control, thanks!” or “I’m confident how I’ve been doing the TPS reports, Maria, so no worries”. Cut her off when she starts: “excuse me for butting in, but I’m quite familiar with this process, so I’m going to go ahead and get started, have a good afternoon”, blah blah.

      Personally, I’d start with this kind of cheerier politeness, like you’re almost helping her from wasting her own time on something she doesn’t need to do. If that feels too overly accommodating, you’ve already tried this, or her patronizing is like, offensively bad and borderline bullying, then I would pass go and proceed straight to firmer boundaries. I think Allison usually recommends either the firm shutdown (“Maria, I know how to process TPS reports. Please stop giving me advice on this.”) and/or the calling it out in the moment with bewilderment (“wow, that comment was bizarre”) or whatever. Also maybe let your manager know you’re having this problem and ask for help (if you have a manager you think is capable of helping. I’d probably go more for a “do you have any advice for how I can respond in the moment/prevent this from happening?”, not asking your manager to step in — again, unless it has gotten really bad or you’ve tried several routes”).

      Also, maybe if you provide an example of her comments, people might be able to suggest some more specific scripts!

    2. Wisteria*

      I had a condescending lead, and I asked for advice from my coach. She suggested you take the approach of, “Can I mention something that I’ve been noticing? You tend to explain things to me that someone at my level should already know, like when you explained that I could use Notepad or Powerpoint to record my questions for you. I was just wondering why you explain things to me in that level of detail?” The trick is make your tone curious rather than, What the Hell, Fergus.

    3. Just here for the popcorn*

      Other advice I’ve seen is the quizzical look followed by “What a strange thing to say to a colleague.” Or “Did you just suggest I push in my chair? How odd.”

      1. Chilipepper Attitude*

        Came here to say this, lots of “what a strange thing to say to a colleague.”
        Also, read about grey rocking someone.

  64. Thursdaysgeek*

    I have a lady who cleans my house as an extra, after her full time work. She does other gigs like that too. She’s a super hard worker, very reliable, and has been at her full time job for well over a decade.

    Her full time job pays her barely over minimum wage, and offers no benefits other than what is required: two sick days a year. They work her hard, and respect her little. So she’s finally been convinced she should look for another job. She’s also nearly 60, and doesn’t have a GED.

    I told her I would help her get a GED, which would open her up to some good jobs (like driving for the Postal Service – she already drives for her company and knows the area.) But that will take time, and in the meantime, she’s only getting older. She does physical jobs now, but that’s not going to continue to be an option. And, of course, retirement is not something she’ll ever be able to afford.

    What other kinds of jobs could I help her apply for?

    1. Trying to help*

      Could you help her get set up with a home computer of some sort? Remote call centers have pretty low barriers for entry.

        1. Trying to help*

          I’m not sure if the GED would be required for this, but my grandfather-in-law drove rental cars between locations for shifting inventory purposes for years in his retirement, well into his late 80s. He only stopped last year with the pandemic. That might be another option to look into since she has a good driving record and familiarity with the area!

            1. Enneagram*

              On that note: if there are colleges in your area, a lot of them have shuttle drivers that take kids to supermarkets, volunteer work, etc.

    2. Enneagram*

      Some ideas:
      could she get a job at a low-physical activity office like an eye doctor/optician?
      some basic work at libraries may not require a college degree (depending on where you live)
      If she is open to a bit more education/certification, perhaps a real estate appraiser, or an appraiser for car accidents?

      1. Anono-me*

        CNA. Way back in the day, I got mine before I graduated HS and many nursing homes would pay for classes.

        Also if there is a VA Medical Center nearby, I THINK that they do not require HS diploma/GED for CNA or meal aide positions. I also THINK that a very very very very tiny Federal Retirement may be possible after 5+ years work and 65+ years old.

  65. Karo*

    A coworker recently started a meeting asking for our highs and lows of the day, saying it’s something she does every day with her kids. Not only am I not her kid, I do not know her well at all and this is a workplace. Unfortunately my boss was also on the call and answered with seemingly no qualms so I don’t feel comfortable pushing back.

    As far as I can see, my options are to get super depressing and talk about all the deaths I’ve dealt with recently so she’ll stop, or to keep the highs and lows very work focused. I know Alison has addressed similar situations before – anyone have the links or keywords I can search (in addition to new advice)?

    1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I’d be tempted to answer “Low point: 8 am. High point: 5 pm.”

    2. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I think it’s perfectly fine to keep it to work highs and lows. If you do, maybe others will follow suit. If you search the site for “sharing feelings” there are several letter that are similar to yours that might be helpful. At least she didn’t frame it as sharing your rose and thorn, I guess? I really hate that phrasing.

    3. The Librarian*

      In our meetings this is optional, only positive (we call it OATs–one awesome thing) and people share a range of personal and professional things depending on comfort. No one is called out by name to share. I think you could 100% just keep it work focused if you prefer–I DID tell everyone about my losses but everyone is different–and I also think you could say, “I’m focusing on the positive today” and just say something good. I’m sorry you’re being pressured to participate!

    4. cubone*

      Would you be comfortable bringing it up with your boss in a 1:1? Something like: “I wanted to talk with you about Jane’s suggestion for highs and lows in our meetings. I know I didn’t say this in the meeting, but afterwards I realized how uncomfortable this is for me. I’m dealing with some lows in my personal life, and I really appreciate work being a reprieve from that. Could we reconsider this practice, or make it clear that they should be work focused?”

      for keywords: I think I remember a few about “mental health check in in meetings”, being our “authentic selves” etc, so maybe try some of those words to search?

      1. Momma Bear*

        I think it’s valid to discuss this with the manager for exactly the reasons above.

    5. Not really a Waitress*

      I did something similar with my kids – but we did best part, worst part, one thing you learned. We did it at dinner so everyone had a chance to talk. But it also helped us to understand what problems they were having. I can see how it comes across as kid level cutesy, but it does provide insight into what is going on with team members.

    6. Donkey Hotey*

      Maybe it’s just me, but I would have zero qualms about saying, “Well, my uncle’s funeral was yesterday, so I’m still dealing with that.” or an honest account of what is actually on my emotional plate. It serves as a reminder that life (especially now) is not one great big super happy fun time.
      But then again, that’s me (cis-het-white-dude) and my office (a bunch of engineers who would be emotionally out of their depth in a car-park puddle.)

    7. Alexis Rosay*

      I had some managers do kind of invasive “ice breakers”. What worked best was to suggest that we rotate who chooses and leads the ice breaker. Most people will select something much lighter like “what did you have for breakfast?” Or “What’s your favorite emoji?”

      If you don’t want to go that far, just keep it focused on work as others have suggested.

    8. Momma Bear*

      I would say that I have nothing to contribute or I would pick work-related things that were benign. “High, someone cleaned out the kitchen fridge/Low, we got a shipment of weasels that needed to be inventoried immediately.”

      1. The New Wanderer*

        The only reason I wouldn’t make that connection immediately is because the coworker said it was something she did with her kids, which would definitely be oriented to the personal. So my first thought would be that she wants people to share how they are feeling, not what their work challenges are. Even with work examples, I’d be hesitant to share a low because the true answer could be something like “Clare didn’t do her work on time like she was supposed to and now I have to stay late” and I’d have to think of something benign like “Had to clear a paper jam before I got my printouts.”

    10. Fish Microwaver*

      I would have no qualms saying something really mundane. E.g high point ” I cleared the backlog of TPS reports”, low point ” I didn’t enjoy the tuna fish sandwich from the new deli”. Just grey rock it.

    11. ecnaseener*

      One thing I’ve noticed with the similar “Rose/Bud/Thorn” activity: It actually works really well to have 3+ choices but each person picks two. (Or I guess you could do two choices and pick one, but then it becomes a Thing which one you choose.)

      This started out as just a time-saving measure, but it actually makes it way less stressful because you have an automatic out. Don’t have a “rose” (aka high) to share because nothing good has happened lately? Just don’t pick rose, you don’t have to say why. Same for if you have a “thorn” (low) but you don’t want to talk about – just don’t pick it.

      I used this in a college club where the members were all friends, so it doesn’t translate perfectly to a professional setting. The naming scheme is a little juvenile, but I think there’s something to it…you’re not sharing THE low point of your day, you’re sharing ONE thing that qualifies as a thorn in the rosebushes of your life or whatever. So it can be a small thing.

      1. Blomma*

        We’ve been doing a rose/thorn of the week ever since we we went remote last year. People give a mix of personal and work roses and thorns. There have been weeks that have been horrendous but I haven’t wanted to discuss why so I’ve responded “no thorns to speak of this week.” It doesn’t mean there aren’t thorns, just that they’re not something I’ll be sharing.

        1. ecnaseener*

          Is it understood the way you mean it? IME if someone says “no thorns to speak of” or “no thorns I want to share” people will go “oh that’s great yay!!!” and it’s quite awkward.

          1. Blomma*

            Probably not but to my brain it means I’m not lying! Not technically lying is better for my overactive guilty conscience! I have chronic health issues and am in constant pain (among other symptoms). My coworkers are generally aware of this (not specific diagnoses) so sometimes I’ll mention that I had a rough week. But other times I just don’t want to bring it up so people don’t think I’m whining all the time. Also there’s only so many times I can hear “I hope you feel better soon” from my boss without accidentally rolling my eyes.

    12. allathian*

      Ugh, I really don’t like these, and my workplace’s generally great and we sometimes share even uncomfortable and quite tough things with each other. For example, in a team meeting I shared with the whole team that I’d had a miscarriage and that it’d take a while for me to be my usual cheerful self again. They were sympathetic and understanding, but didn’t make too much fuss over me, which was perfect. At the next meeting, another coworker shared that she was pregnant, and I was able to congratulate her warmly, which probably surprised her a bit, given my recent loss. If my pregnancy had gone to term, our due dates would have been during the same week. (We have a generous maternity leave policy, and the legal requirement is to give notice two months before you intend to go on maternity leave, but many people do it much earlier, before it starts to show.)

      That said, I have a hard time figuring out the high and low points of every single day, or even what I learned on a specific day. Maybe I just go through life in a daze, but my mind just doesn’t pay attention to those things, unless it’s something truly exceptional, like my normal 45-minute commute taking 90 minutes because so many trains were canceled or there was a breakdown on the track, or getting the third email of really positive feedback from internal customers within a week. The small, daily stuff I either forget as soon as they’re past or barely notice as they’re happening. I do ask my son what he’s learned that day during the school year, but now that we’re together 24/7 it’s just not happening.

  66. H Crawford*

    I’m about to apply for a management position for the first time (already a manager at my current company). Aside from paying attention to required skills/experience in the job description, what advice do you have for writing a good resume and cover letter as a manager?

    Our deliverables aren’t really quantitative, so expressing the accomplishments of my team isn’t straightforward.

    1. ferrina*

      On your resume, it’s expected that you’ll list your teams’ accomplishments. Like “Led team of 5 expert knitters that produced $X in revenue”; “Oversaw the single largest custom scarf creation that our company had ever produced.” Don’t include things that you had literally no part of, but if you were managing the staffing and resource procurement, that’s worth talking about!

      For your cover letter, tell the stories of managing. Did you see someone’s unique talent and make opportunities for them? Did you advocate for your team in a particularly successful way? Did you create/implement new processes that went smoothly/improved efficiency/etc.?

  67. AnotherAlison*

    After a very long time with my previous company, I started a job 7 months ago that I’ve grown to hate. A couple weeks ago, a recruiter reached out to me for a job somewhere more in line with my OldCompany. I actually had an offer from them for a different position 3 years ago, but I didn’t take it for various reasons that aren’t true now.
    The external recruiters thought I would be a great fit, but the HR recruiter passed on a question about some specific experience that was a concern for them. I provided some more information, and I haven’t heard back.

    Now I’m just totally curious as to what’s up. The first response was within a day. They have had my expanded information for a week, and no response. Why a quick no before, but nothing now?

    LOL. I know how this works, but it’s driving me nuts. I have a ton of stuff up in the air that is leading to “if that then this” in a lot of areas of life, and I just want to nail one thing down. I don’t care if it’s no!

    When I interviewed before, it was about 3-4 months from resume submittal to offer. That was part of why I said no. If they had been quick, I probably would have taken it, but I kind of got that “they must not be excited about me” feeling (from my own head only). That wasn’t an extremely long timeline, but I had another bad experience with a different company of being dragged along for months after multiple rounds of interviews, being assured by the internal guy that the offer would be presented as soon as VP returned from a trip, then nothing. The job went to someone else. My sense then was they were keeping me on the hook hoping someone better came along, and they finally found who they wanted. Could be happening again. Or a key person is on vacation. Who knows?

    1. ferrina*

      There’s no way to know. It’s so so normal to see hiring timelines take longer than expected, even for the best candidate ever. Take a look at Impatient’s comment below- lots of people are in this same boat. Try to put it out of your mind and move on.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        I know, I know. The external recruiter is pinging me every other day with, “Still haven’t heard. Should hear [next day],” so it’s hard to let this one go.

  68. Impatient*

    Venting: I applied for a job a month ago and haven’t heard anything back yet. I KNOW this is totally reasonable even if I were their favorite candidate based on resume and cover letter alone, but each day that passes I find myself both wanting the job more, and losing more hope that they’ll interview me. I’m having a hard time following Alison’s advice to move on as if I haven’t gotten the job, even though I know it’s the best and right thing to do. It doesn’t help that I’m Facebook friends with the person who has the job currently!

    1. ferrina*

      The unrequited job application sucks! And is so so common.

      You know what you have to do though. Try to put it out of your mind- take up a new hobby, try to beat a new goal, play intense amounts of Elder Scrolls….whatever distracts you. You also need to let go of this desire for this job, since it sounds like it’s feeding your frustration. It sounds almost like a crush, so what if you treat it like an unrequited crush? Carolyn Hax’s advice is to picture the object of your affection doing something unattractive or even repulsive. Maybe the job has people that clip their nails at their desk. Maybe there’s a snide person who would openly mock you and make you so miserable that you bite them (it’s in the AAM archives). Maybe they spontaneously start singing show tunes!

    2. Cookies for Breakfast*

      Here to offer sympathy. I waited two months for a rejection recently, and it stings!

      I applied to a place I would LOVE to work for and made it to the second interview stage. This is possibly the one company in the world I feel starstruck with – I’m not saying that lightly. They said they would make a decision in a week’s time, because they needed to quickly hire a replacement for someone who had already left. Funnily, that person is someone I’d been recommended to network with in the past (who never replied to my introduction email, which I’d sent with the blessings of a mutual contact).

      Two months went without a word. They even reposted the advert with a new deadline, around month one. They then sent a rejection email that hit me harder than usual. Of course by that time I knew I wasn’t getting the job. But their feedback was puzzling, and I even wondered if it was even meant for me: they said I lacked experience in one area they never even asked me about, and in a skill they had gone out of their way to tell me would be acquired on the job.

      My opinion of the company is not as high as before. Their email invited me to keep applying for future jobs, and that just sounds like empty words now. It all was a good reminder of why moving on is so important: even if not hearing back after the original week made me suspect I wouldn’t be hired, the hope that this particular organisation would believe I had something to offer still surfaced while I was waiting. I usually put rejections behind me quickly, but seeing that their feedback wasn’t even connected to the conversations we’d had was really disappointing.

      Keep going, and I hope a great role comes up for you soon!

    3. Also impatient*

      Hi Impatient,
      If it’s any consolation, I once applied for a part-time job in Jan and got an interview email from them in March!! I had even forgotten by then and had of course given up hopes!! But guess what, once I finished the interview, they hired me within 5 days including reference and background check. I am still at that job and I am so happy.
      I know how it feels… waiting anxiously for that email, checking email and phone every second, and to make matters worse, precisely during this period, you get ALL sorts of other unimportant/useless emails!!!!!!
      Hang in there – something good will definitely come to you……

    4. AnotherAlison*

      I posted my current impatient story just above yours, but earlier this summer I had a couple situations that were a reminder of how rude some companies are.

      1: I applied to a job with a solar company and explained to the recruiter what my transferable experience was on a phone screen. He was all “sounds great” and set up an interview. It was just a HM-call-me thing, so I only had a start time. The job was nothing like what I expected and my experience wasn’t that transferable, but we spent the first 15 minutes BS’ing, and as 30 min approached, the guy was like, “Whelp, that is all the time Steve set up for us. Thanks, bye.” Never heard a word again, and a couple weeks later I got an email from corporate to rate my experience (still no official rejection). I was unhappy with the experience, so I filled that baby out, and the system crapped out and I didn’t get to submit it.

      2: An external HR person who was managing the hiring process for a company called me about a resume I submitted. We talked for 25 minutes, then she asked me my salary requirements. She said it was above their range, but she was going to pass on my resume to the HM anyway. Ghosted. (I didn’t want to work there for less anyway, but FFS close the loop.)

    5. AnotherLibrarian*

      1. Can you apply for another job? I find if I have several applications out in the world than I am super less likely to hyper focus on one of them.

      2. Can you try to just accept the idea that you didn’t get the job. Just assume you didn’t. Move on. Maybe that means taking a half day to mourn, go for a long walk, or spend some time polishing up your resume for the next one. That was if you do end up getting an interview, it’s a nice surprise rather than something that is frustrating you.

      I am sorry. I know how hard this is.

    6. Zephy*

      I was contacted for an interview to get a job at the place I currently work seven months after applying. I didn’t even remember doing so. I just happened to be checking my email for something to do while waiting to see a movie some Friday night, and saw a message with a link to schedule an interview.

  69. taking it day by day*

    Last year my company re-orged the work flow, and my team took on more work. Then the people were re-orged, and my team lost people. And now we will be taking on more work. When I check in with the folks on my small team I hear ‘I’m busy. So busy. Busy busy busy. Oh my gosh busy.’ My team has also told Boss directly that they are super busy. So I talked to Boss and was able to get overtime approved. Previously OT was not an option except as pre-approved for a very limited set of scenarios (basically never), but now it is ‘do what you need to do to get your job done’. Boss was also able to get a temp to help out.

    The company is also doing flexible Fridays where they have encouraged us to end every Friday this summer early with pay (as a way to give us more time off to help avoid burn out). The guidelines specifically said that how early employees log off is subject to the individual employees’ workload on any given Friday. This week could be busy and an employee may only get an hour or two off (or not log out early at all), next week might be slow and the employee could get a half day off. This benefit allows employees to log off early up to 4 hours, more than 4 and they need to use PTO.

    I’ve noticed that only a couple of my folks are using just a little bit of OT. My more entry level, but longtime, team members are consistently taking half-days every Friday, with my managers logging off 2-4 hours early. I’m struggling to reconcile the ‘busy busy busy’, with no or minimal OT hours, and clocking out early on Friday. I don’t know what to make of that. If you’re super busy, wouldn’t you want the OT to catch up or take your time with a task and not rush through? Clocking out early on Friday is a company benefit, and I certainly won’t interfere with that, but 4 hours every week while being ‘super busy’? How does Busy, OT, and Flexible Fridays all fit together? I’ve noticed that the workload has definitely increased, so the busy talk isn’t just all talk. Maybe they’re just blowing off steam? I’m rather burnt out myself, and my brain has gotten on a ‘this doesn’t make sense’ track and cannot get off, so I would appreciate some perspective.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Are they actually getting the work done? To the appropriate levels of quality, completeness, etc?

      “Busy, busy, busy” is just words. Performance metrics, lack of OT, and early check-out are numbers.

      “Busy, busy, busy” on Tuesday could mean “it looks like we’ll have more work dumped on us tomorrow”, or “please don’t bother me right now”, or “why haven’t I gotten a raise?”

      1. ferrina*

        My first thought was about the work- are they getting it done? Is it good quality? If not, that’s something to raise.

        If the work is good, you can always ask for more details. “What’s going on? Are there deadlines that we need to push?”
        Busy could mean “I have to rush through every project and never have downtime.” That’s a really intense pace, but wouldn’t necessarily cause overtime (especially if they have a long commute/kids/other commitments- OT may be unfeasible or unappealing).

        Busy could also mean “Our workload is high but manageable, but I am so burnt out from everything that happened last year that I can’t even!” This is a morale issue. Compliment their good work (be specific!), encourage them to take PTO and make it easy for them to take PTO (by actively shifting workloads between people rather than waiting for them to do it themselves), take PTO yourself! Proactively check in with people to see how they are feeling- “How’s your bandwidth this week? Where do you need help?”

        1. taking it day by day*

          The work is getting done, and largely good quality (acceptable anyway). Our turn around time has suffered since the reorg and that’s what I’m noticing most, rather than poor quality work.

    2. ThatGirl*

      I’m curious if your team actually said they needed OT or couldn’t get everything done in 40 hours.

      There are definitely weeks I would describe myself as “busy busy busy” but I also just work through lunch or take fewer breaks and buckle down and get it done so I can leave early on a Friday. If everything’s getting done, maybe they don’t actually need the OT, they just feel like the week is full.

      1. taking it day by day*

        Holy smokes! I didn’t ask if they wanted or need OT. *facepalm* Well there’s my problem, I didn’t talk to them directly about what they thought some solutions were or if the ‘busy busy busy’ was a real issue for me to try and solve. Ugh. And thank you!

    3. AnotherAlison*

      I’d take a closer look at what’s going on. Are more senior people doing OT but not logging it? In a former role, senior people wouldn’t get paid OT (exempt) while certain junior roles did, although they were also exempt. The rule was you should log it anyway, but it would go against your project budget and your project performance was better if you didn’t log it, so there was no incentive to do it. Is the work evenly distributed? Again, in this former role, I was incredibly burned out and assignments were piled on me so that I had 12 weeks vacation paid out when I left, while I had a couple barely competent senior coworkers who were always looking for something to do because my management didn’t trust them with important work. One was eventually fired.

      1. taking it day by day*

        Is the work evenly distributed? – Thank you for this question. I’d have to say no. One person in particular has more going on and works more hours than the rest of the team (uses more OT and fewer flexible Friday hours) and has the longest turnaround times. (everyone is hourly, non-exempt, including the managers.)

        1. Narvo Flieboppen*

          I am very late to this party, but let me tell you, I’ve been the one person who had the uneven workload. Management & my coworkers acknowledged it, frequently, but they all refused to address it. That was a big part of my decision to start looking for another job just before COVID hit.

          It was a similar summer situation, even, where Fridays were authorized half days during the summer. I didn’t get to take advantage of more than 1 because of the excess work falling onto my plate. A couple of my coworkers were taking Fridays off entirely. On a team of 6, it really stands out when you’re the one person consistently stuck and overloaded.

          While my coworkers noted the disparity, none of them were willing to take on one of my many tasks, either. I had inherited a lot of the tasks when we were short-staffed and then management declined to move them back when the positions were filled.

          Please try to make sure the workload for your team is as evenly distributed as possible. Or that the person who is overloaded receives some form of extra compensation for consistently being the beast of burden.

    4. WellRed*

      Did they actually want overtime or do they want a lighter workload , which is where I thought you were going when you spoke to boss.
      It maybe they just like saying they are busy busy but really aren’t. However that is something you should know as the manager.

      1. taking it day by day*

        I’m embarrassed to say that I didn’t ask what they wanted. The overall workload is increasing, and another permeant head count is not an option either, so I just changed the one thing that I could.

    5. Overeducated*

      Is this supposed to go on forever, or is there an end date? Because in my experience (which I recognize is not everyone’s and varies by job), OT is a “sometimes food.” It’s not a permanent work condition, at least not without agreement. If it changes from an occasional way to push through a heavy workload to a daily or weekly expectation, then that’s kind of a big deal. If “busy” is a forever condition, then maybe people are trying to pace themselves, actually use Flexible Fridays to avoid burnout as intended, and save OT for when there is a more urgent deadline than normal.

      I know there is more work for me to do in my job than time to do it, so I always feel “busy busy busy,” but my solution to that is to prioritize relentlessly, try to learn more about budgeting and funding opportunities to get more help in the future, and look for efficiencies. I’m not interested in making my 40 hour a week job a 60 hour a week job, and I think that would in fact be exploitative.

      1. taking it day by day*

        There is no end date right now, but so much is changing at our company that who knows what Monday will bring.

        And thank you for pointing out that they could be pacing themselves, I had not considered that at all. Which is exactly why I had posted today.

    6. Anonymous Hippo*

      I don’t think people are designed to be busy every moment of the day, so I think it is completely possible for you to be busy enough to feel overwhelmed and overscheduled, and simultaneously be able to be finished 2-4 hours early each week. In fact, if that was an option I 100% know I’d kill myself to get done early so I can leave. OT isn’t always about the money, I value my free time well above anything anybody is ever going to pay me, so I’d rather work myself to the bone and be done in a normal amount of time (or early) so I could get back home.

      Now if they were taking the OT and leaving early on Friday, that would be a problem, but it doesn’t sound like that’s what we are talking about. I don’t think there is anything going on weird here.

      Oh, and also, some people consider themselves “busy” if they have any outstanding work, regardless of the deadline. As in they don’t have to have their nose to the grindstone, just it standing by will set up the “busy” feeling.

      1. taking it day by day*

        Thinking about the “busy” feeling, we are definitely busier than we have been in the past. So maybe it’s not ‘overwhelmingly busy’ but just ‘more busy’ instead. So their regular days are more full than they used to be, but not to the point of needing OT just to get through.

      2. ronda*

        Not being able to take a company provided Friday break, because your department is understaffed is a way to get more people out looking for new jobs.

        and it is good that they get paid more for overtime, but for many people overtime is not a treat. Sounds like you have mostly a group that doesn’t really want to work overtime.

        Friday 1/2 days should not impact overtime, but I am betting they do, (ie overtime starts after working 40 hours for week, not calculated each day). Another dis-incentive to want to do overtime.

        1. AcademiaNut*

          Yeah, offering early Fridays with pay during slow times in a job that doesn’t have slow times is pretty mean, and likely to cause resentment. If the work is steady and intense, it’s possible that the extra couple of hours on Friday is something that’s keeping them going, and produces the same productivity as working flat out 9-5 and spending Friday afternoon exhausted (see recent research on four day weeks).

          It sounds like you’ve got a job where there is more work than people can do in a standard work week. There’s only so much you can do without decreasing the workload, or hiring more people. Some people might appreciate the opportunity for overtime and more money (although you do have to watch for burnout – working more hours doesn’t necessarily increase productivity as much as you might suspect). But for others, what they want is a reasonable workload for a reasonable work week, and occasional time to recharge, which means that the work is going to take longer to do than it did before.

  70. Cruciatus*

    I really don’t know how to word this…I think I need encouragement from people who moved from a job, place, and people you really, really like to a new job/place because of the lack of upward mobility at the current place (or whatever thing made you need to leave). Are you glad you did it in the end?

    Longer version: I’ve been at my current campus for 6 years, and in the library for 4. I’m so comfortable here but there isn’t much new that happens. Trying to come up with at least 3 new goals every year is a nightmare because it’s a library and we aren’t changing things up a whole lot all the time. And the only upward mobility in the library is my supervisor’s job (that as far as I know, she has no intention of leaving) and there’s a lot of lateral movement but not a lot of moving up available on campus. I’m currently at a smaller campus of a certain Big 10 school and a library job that would be like my current supervisor’s has come up at another nearby private school. Part of me is just like “stay comfortable” but there’s another part of my brain that is like “GO FOR A NEW OPPORTUNITY THAT WOULD LIKELY PAY MORE TOO!” I think the pandemic and my mom’s recent death has made my brain prioritize comfort over everything else. I love working in a library and jobs don’t come available for non-librarians too often so ignoring this job feels weird. So any encouraging stories are welcome!

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I left my last very comfortable job with no mobility at one end of the country for another job at the other end of the country (both in libraries). Do I regret it? I don’t think I do, but there are things I miss about the old job. However, I think until you have an offer in hand, then you don’t have a decision to make. So, I might apply and see where it goes. You lose nothing checking it out.

    2. Wisteria*

      I have done this a lot — not gonna lie, it’s hard to move even when you are excited about the change. I am glad I did it not because everything always worked out for the better, but because every change came with valuable experiences that I am happy that I had. I would do it — in fact, I’m moving for a job in September!

    3. Emma Dilemma*

      I just left a job I loved as I had no hope of progression.

      I am much, MUCH happier.

    4. Zephy*

      An application, interview, heck even an offer from this other school is not an obligation to leave your job. You could go through the whole process, get an offer, and still decline and stay where you are. You should apply and see where it goes. At worst, you waste a couple of hours putting together application materials and never hear another word about this job.

    5. Nessun*

      I went from a job that had no progress options to another three time zones away. (Think New York to Montana) I applied for the position because it would allow growth and draw on current skills – I left behind family and friends, and knew no one when I landed in the city (which I had never seen; all my interviewing was by phone). I have never regretted it! I built a life in this city, made new friends (as an introvert) and the career opportunities have been incredible. Interview where you can, and if you think it might work, give the move a shot.

  71. Nacho*

    How do you talk to a manager about unreasonable expectations? We’ve (call center) got a new bonus structure tied to meeting specific targets, including surveys and # of calls taken/day. Unfortunately, we don’t get enough calls/day for everybody to meet that goal. Last month 6/13 agents met the goal, and this month it’s even harder and we’ve only got 1/13 so far. Boss keeps saying that we’re entering peak season and increasing hours and she’s sure we’ll get enough calls for everybody to meet the goals, but realistically I just don’t see how that’s going to happen. Mathematically it’s literally been impossible so far this month for more than one person to meet the calls/day target because we just aren’t getting enough calls, and it seems stupid to pair our bonuses to a metric we can’t control.

    1. WellRed*

      No advice but sympathy. At old retail job we had to sign people up for the rewards program but if everyone already was signed up it didn’t count against you. The retailer that took over would count it against you even though that made no sense. So if you signed up give people and the other five people you waited on already were members, you were only at 50% instead of 100%

    2. RagingADHD*

      Sorry, but in your position I would assume this is intentional, to avoid paying out bonuses at all.

      1. Nacho*

        The weird thing is, other teams, have perfectly reasonable goals, ones that are only about 75% as big as ours

  72. HBJ*

    Would you complain to management about this?

    I was a customer with my children when an employee at a large retail chain approached me. I did not need help and didn’t look like I needed help (I was actively doing what I was doing, no standing and searching all over a shelf, for example). They approached me and made a pop culture reference about my children. I was in a rush, and I didn’t understand the reference, so I just kind of shrugged and gave a brief laugh and kept doing what I was doing. They then said, “before you think I’m creepy, I have children of my own.” Again, I kind of shrugged, finished what I was doing and left.

    Once out to my car, I googled the reference. This person had compared my children to possessed, murderous horror movie characters. It related to my children’s appearance. I am absolutely 100% certain that I did not mishear or the wrong thing popped up on google, etc.

    I don’t want this person fired, but I’m pretty upset that they thought this was ok to say. Fwiw, I’ve had interactions at the checkout counter in the past when this person was the cashier, and the things they’ve said have always been a little odd, although nothing this weird and offensive.

    1. Colette*

      I wouldn’t complain. It sounds like she was a little awkward, and that you don’t share her sense of humour. It’s not that she was in the right, but I don’t think there’s much a manager can do about it.

      There are some situations where it would still make sense to complain – i.e. the remarks were based on a physical disability or race – but if it was just “the kids look alike and were wearing black shirts” I’d let it go.

    2. Dark Macadamia*

      I wouldn’t complain but be prepared for them to bring it up again. Just “um, that’s kind of creepy” or “please don’t call my kids demons” or whatever and only report it if they keep doing it or start acting even creepier.

    4. Squeebird*

      Oh boy, I’m really of two minds on this. On one hand, I have had colleagues in public-facing roles who would say bizarre or confrontational stuff to people (and then I’d have to step in and do damage control…) and I wish customers would have complained more so that management would finally address it with them. But on the other hand, you mention that this happened at a large retail store, and Big Retail doesn’t have a great reputation for treating employees well. You might not want the person fired, but their boss might just decide that’s easier than taking the time to coach the employee on appropriate conversation with customers. I don’t know!

    5. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I think this is a case of a) someone who doesn’t quite know how to interact with others trying to make small talk, and b) possibly one of those pop culture references that is divorced from their literal meanings. Like maybe if they said “oh you’ve got some Children of the Corn here” I would just think they meant tall blond lookalikes rather than telling you they thought your kids were possessed murderers. I know a lot of young adults who relate to others through the media they’re familiar with, so them saying “oh you look like The Omen” would just be a way for them to form a connection with you rather than telling you you look like a demon.

      It sounds like you know enough about this person to know they are socially awkward, so unless you felt threatened I would probably leave it alone.

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        Exactly — Children of the Corn just means blond children — who knows what the attempted reference was, but I very sincerely doubt the person what literally saying your kids are horror monsters.

      2. mreasy*

        I mean we can all assume it was children of the corn, right? Definitely a weird comment and inappropriate but for a bunch of blond kids, I could see them thinking it’s okay (I personally wouldn’t)…I wouldn’t report them or anything.

    6. LadyByTheLake*

      I would let it go. It sounds like they were trying to make a joke (I can see it being kind of funny about all children being scary monsters or something) but it was really awkward and you obviously have a different sense of humor.

    7. Donkey Hotey*

      First: an employee in a retail store approached you even though you didn’t need help? I realize that this is a rare occurrence but once upon a time, it was normal for salespeople to approach customers.

      Next: I think about all the people on this board with various levels of social anxiety. There is a non-zero chance that the sales person is already raking themselves over saying something stupid.

      If you go there again and they say something odd again, yes maybe point it out. Otherwise, to use another pop culture reference, let it go, Elsa.

      1. JustaTech*

        I had a ceramic teacher who did this as the customer one time: it was just after the movie The Sixth Sense had come out and a cashier asked her is she had “six cents”? “No, but I see dead people!”

        The cashier had not heard of the movie, had no idea what she was talking about and was super creeped out. My teacher thought he should have found it funny but the class agreed that if you didn’t know about the movie a funny comment could sound scary.

        1. Double A*

          Maybe this says something about my sense of humor but they story is really funny from the outside to me.

          Once a new friend gave me her dad’s gate code and it was 12345 and I commented “That’s the kind of code an idiot would have on their luggage!” And my friend had not seen Spaceballs…

          1. Donkey Hotey*

            Don’t know if you’ll see this, but my best friend’s son walked in to his kindergarten class and announced, “I’m surrounded by @ssh*les.”

            That did not make for a fun visit to the principals office.

    8. Cherry Danish*

      Hmm, tricky. Hard to say/decide what to do, it would depend. What was the pop culture reference?

  73. Cookies for Breakfast*

    In a sea of job rejections (including one that had me genuinely think I’d been sent another candidate’s feedback), I had my very first experience of a rejection email that feels personalised and written with care. I’d love some advice on how best to respond.

    The role was advertised as senior, but with room to consider a less experienced candidate who showed potential. I’m definitely a less experienced candidate. I had a recruiter interview and two interviews with the hiring team, and was impressed by how much detail they offered about the job. They were also very honest about tough challenges the new hire would face, and I felt they were letting me ask at least as many questions as they asked me. However, I got a clear sense during the second interview that my experience would be no match to what a senior person could bring, so the rejection doesn’t surprise me.

    Part of the rejection email said they felt I have “potential to grow into a role”, and would like to keep in touch about future roles where they can “afford some more career development” for me.

    I’m not 100% sure how to interpret this. Is it a simple invite to apply to future jobs on their website? Would they contact me if they believe I could be a good fit for a new role? Shall I contact the recruiter before I apply to another role online? (it’s a large company so I doubt this one person does all the candidate outreach)

    I wonder if I’d be out of line to ask what’s the best way to keep in touch. Or shall I thank them for the feedback, say I’d be interested in keeping in touch, and assume they’re just suggesting to apply when roles appear on their website?

    1. WellRed*

      I’d just close the loop for now, “thx for the feedback, please do keep me in mind.” But otherwise, this seems pretty standard.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      I thin this sounds like a pretty standard gracious rejection. I tend to send things like this to people when I interviewed them and I think “Man, I can’t hire them for this, but I would love to hire them for something.”

      So, I would close the loop with a nice note and then if you apply for an another job there, that’s the point that you reach out and let them know and go from there.

      1. Cookies For Breakfast*

        Thank you! Everyone shared helpful thoughts, and it’s good to learn this isn’t yet as personal as it may sound.

        “Gracious” sounds about right. If anything, this company seems to have better interviewing practices than most I’ve dealt with.

        I’m going to send a short thank you note (I do really appreciate the feedback they gave) and contact them again if I happen to apply for other roles, like you suggested.

    3. BRR*

      I think it’s more of a generic note. I wouldn’t respond now. I think you should apply to any openings you’re interested in, not wait for them to reach out to you, and send a quick note to someone at the company like maybe the recruiter or hiring manager.

    4. ronda*

      I say treat it as if they meant it. A little opportunity for relationship building.
      I would send a response with the following elements

      thanks.
      while I am disappointed not to get this role I am impressed with company and folks I met while interviewing. (whatever details about this you like)
      would be very interested to hear from you about any roles that come up where you think I may be a fit.
      I will also keep an eye out for any future job postings, as I would like to work at company if the right role comes up.

      Then if you do find a job to apply for, apply and “reforward” your email say I just applied for whatever on your website. blah blah blah…..

  74. Elbereth Gilthoniel*

    I’m hiring a new person and bringing them on fully remote to start. The position will eventually turn to hybrid/in-person once we are all back in the office, but for the time being my team is fully remote. I’ve never hired or trained someone fully remotely! What advice do you have for me?

    I think I have basics down like making sure they have all their equipment (laptop, etc.) before their start date. And I’ll schedule some introductory meetings for them. But what else should I do that may be different from onboarding an employee in person?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Well the good news is you don’t have to show them where the restrooms are, or explain what to do if they forget their badge, or tell them about the good places to get lunch in the neighborhood. So that time budget is freed up for other stuff.

      Make sure you explain to their peers in the existing staff that they’ll need to go out of their way to help the newby fit in for the first month or two.

    2. Allypopx*

      I’m in the middle of onboarding for a job virtually for the first time ever (as the employee) and it is HARD. It’s hard not to feel like you’re bothering people because you have to seek people out for questions (instead of causally asking whoever is nearby how the copier works, for example), it’s hard to track down information, it’s hard to contextualize things or know how you should be spending your time…

      So check in often! Be available, outline where things are kept and what people should have access to. If there are any documents (like “how we work” guides or anything like that) or just knowledge bases people can peruse, name them up front. Be honest if some of that stuff is out of date so people aren’t learning the wrong information. Assign a couple of low stakes projects for them to work on if they have free time – not that they can’t have higher stakes projects too but if they finish or are waiting on someone else for information or something like that they might be twiddling their thumbs.

      The technology is a big one I spent like three days on the phone with IT getting various things fixed and while it was nice to have that to focus on it didn’t feel like I should have to be making my station workable on my own.

      It sounds like you’re off to a good start though!

      1. Elbereth Gilthoniel*

        Thanks! I’ll try to think of some low-stakes projects that the new person can work on if they have free time.
        And I’ll add time in my calendar for regular check-ins. I think someone else mentioned a daily 10 minute meeting – so that is multiple votes for checking in often.

        I hope your onboarding starts to be/feel less hard soon! It’s always difficult to find your footing in a new job, and I’m sure that onboarding virtually for the first time makes it even more difficult.

    3. AnotherAlison*

      I came on board that way in January (as did my boss before me earlier in 2020), and I don’t like my job, but if it’s a newly created job, be extra careful about making sure it is clearly defined and the internal team outside your department has buy-in to that. I didn’t feel like I was doing what I was hired to do from day 1. No one knows me, so I don’t feel like there is an understanding of what I could do (higher level work) vs. what they’re asking me to do (easy work but not quite my job).

    4. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      We’ve had good luck with remote onboarding (my team was fully remote pre-pandemic) with assigning each new team member a “buddy” or two – an experienced team member who can be available to them for questions, who will chat with them and so on, basically a couple of intentional contacts that ISN’T their manager or supervisor. As a side benefit, this also gives the “buddies” some semi-formal leadership or mentoring experience to build on, and we’ve had people who actually decided after being a “buddy” that they were interested in maybe looking into some more formal opportunities as well.

      1. Emma Dilemma*

        Yes, this! I recently started remotely and having a buddy has helped loads. Also for the first couple of weeks I had a daily ten-minute end-of-day checkout with my manager which worked really well.

        Give them time to set up their equipment – don’t schedule meetings on the first morning. It will take time to get things all set up, log into everything etc.

        1. Elbereth Gilthoniel*

          Thanks – I really like the idea of a 10 minute “checkout”. I’ll have to try to incorporate that into my plans!

      2. Elbereth Gilthoniel*

        This idea of a “buddy” is great – I am definitely using this. I think there is a team member here who would be a good fit for a buddy role.

    5. Policy Wonk.*

      Make sure they have sufficient work to do and, particularly at the beginning, check in often. In person it is easy to see that someone doesn’t have enough to do, or is struggling with confusing instructions. But remote you have no idea. We onboarded a couple of people remotely, and the second one was open about approaching me to say she needed more work or didn’t understand something. It made me realize that I should check in on the first one. She was the same way, in fact probably needed more support, but was afraid to ask.

      1. Elbereth Gilthoniel*

        Thanks! It seems like “check in often” is the most popular piece of advice. And I’ll try to make sure they have enough to work on.

    6. RosyGlasses*

      I love training and onboarding remotely! Even now coming back to the office part time, I will continue to use all my electronic resources. Here is what I did to make the transition:

      1 – google slide deck for my orientation slides. Everything from company culture, team expectations, awards we have won, and select areas of the employee handbook that typically merit more discussion (benefits, PTO, etc).
      2 – moved all training documents to a digital location for easy access
      3 – made sure our teams have online resources for all of their processes
      4 – scheduled one hour meetings with each department team lead and manager, along with two of our company owners over a period of 2 weeks so they can meet folks and put names to faces
      5 – sent an e-gift card to Starbucks (or place of their choice) since I normally would take newbies to lunch the first day
      6 – our HRIS system “welcomes” them to the team with an email out to the company and their volunteered information that that they fill out (favorite food, etc) is posted on the main page. When I onboard them into our instant messaging system, we post a welcome message in our company chat and folks will welcome them as well.

      1. Elbereth Gilthoniel*

        Thank you for the e-gift card idea! I would take a new hire out to lunch usually. The thought of sending a gift card never crossed my mind, but I’ll definitely do that.

        1. RosyGlasses*

          You’re welcome! Basically I took everything and said – what would I do if someone were here and is there a way to do this remotely and it reminded me to do some things that I would have missed, like lunch! Good luck.

  75. The New Person*

    I’m a month into my new job and still haven’t learned my main responsibility yet. I’ve just learned to do some tiny/easy parts related to it. (Otherwise I’ve been doing mandatory company eLearnings, online classes on our software, and data cleanup projects to fill my time.) I don’t mind at all since my boss seems busy and I have things to do so I’m not bored.

    Buuut it’s kind of awkward/embarrassing when coworkers say things to me or ask me questions and I have to say my boss is still doing my main responsibility. And at a previous job, I was told I would get training on certain things to work toward a promotion, but my boss and the people who were supposed to train kept saying they needed to talk to each other about it whenever I followed up. At the end of the year, I was blamed for not getting the training and I only got half my bonus. So I’m kind of nervous that I’m going to get in trouble at my new job.

    I guess my questions is, is it normal to not be able to do the main part of my job a month in? It’s starting to get concerning to me.

    1. Rude????*

      That doesn’t sound normal to me, but it could be standard at your company if there’s a ton of elearning stuff to get out of the way.
      When people ask you questions, do you need to actually tell them your boss is still doing the whole thing? Or can you get away with “Hm, I’m still training on that so I’ll need to check with Boss on the answer.” “Still training” rather than “waiting for training”

    2. animaniactoo*

      It doesn’t sound normal not to have touched any real portion of it.

      At this point, I think the best thing to do would be to talk to your boss about what they think the schedule looks like for you to start picking up some of these main portions.

  76. Red flag collector*

    Inspired by the OP update who wrote that she’d “rather be in this boat than on a yacht to Crazytown,” I wonder what red flags job hunters have experienced recently as well as why it was a red flag.

    On my end, I had an interview with someone who called themselves a “mama bear” of their workplace “family”. When I asked what sets apart a good employee from great employee in the role, they used two examples of poor performance from current subordinates to outline what they weren’t looking for. These were red flags for me because I want to work for an org with relatively clear work/life boundaries (“but we’re family” orgs tends not to have such boundaries) and for a manager who leads through positive (and clear) direction rather than through denigration.

    2. cubone*

      This was years ago, but a friend experienced the two people conducting the interview get into an argument. She asked a question about the specific responsibilities. One of them answered with some details about a big project she’d be working on and the other one said “well, no, that’s not actually where that project will be heading” and they proceeded to have a bit of a back and forth. I thought it was hilarious.

      I had an interview earlier this year where the person described their work as “building the plane while we’re flying it”. Unfortunately, this kind of belief that chaos is just to be expected seems to be pervasive in non-profit.

      Another friend had a job interview that asked her to read 2 100 page research studies and summarize them in 1,000 words. She did it, didn’t hear back in the time frame they said they’d respond, and when she emailed two days past asking for an update, they responded within 2 minutes just saying “we hired someone else.”

    3. Cookies for Breakfast*

      I’d be writing for hours (as well as sharing details I could be identified by) if I described the interview for my very first job…which, as a clueless and broke early-twenty-something, I took, only to find the workplace was so toxic I couldn’t have survived with a hazmat suit. Least damning detail: it ended with a job offer on the spot, which I know Alison and the readers have very specific opinions about.

      Here are a few more:

      – Manager scheduled the interview for 7am (for a supposedly standard 9 to 5 office job). I arrived a few minutes early, only to find the building door closed. I only had her office number. She never said she’d be the first to arrive, and on top of it all, she arrived late.

      – Manager asked how I feel about working with difficult people, because she is a very demanding boss. This is the same woman as above, and coupled with her pick of a 7am interview she showed up late for, that made me suspect she might be trying to assert dominance.

      – Last one about this woman, I promise. In her rejection email (which I still have for posterity) she said she “decided not to hire me” because it would make her “sad” to “stifle my dreams”, and she wanted to “allow me to follow my career path”. She was recruiting for an admin job. All I’d told her was that my job had a very broad scope, and there were one or two areas I was looking to focus more on. That was quite a lot of drama to pack into a two-line message. I sometimes still wonder how much there would have been working with her day to day.

      – Interviewer asked why I was leaving my job, and didn’t accept my answer about wanting to grow and being ready for a new challenge. They asked me the question again twice. It was too long ago to remember the exact words, but I believe one of them said that wanting to grow and seeking a new challenge couldn’t possibly be enough of a reason for leaving. I was leaving the toxic job mentioned above, so he wasn’t wrong, but it still felt weirdly pushy, especially knowing he was a senior manager and I’d be a junior candidate he wouldn’t even work with.

      – Curious about Glassdoor reviews that mentioned poor work-life balance, I asked one of the interviewers about them (a woman in a role adjacent to what I’d applied for). She burst into laughing for a second and said “Do you really want me to answer that?”. I showed my most deadpan face over Zoom and said “Yes, of course I do”. I couldn’t get myself to believe a word of her boilerplate answer about “being flexible when the workload requires”.

    4. Wisteria*

      About a month ago, I interviewed at a place where the founder/owner’s wife was the Office Mom. I side-eyed that hard. I’m 50 years old and don’t need mothering in the workplace. She did good things like make sure the break/kitchen area was warm and welcoming and a place where you might actually want to eat lunch, but I would have been way more comfortable if she was the office manager or something.

        1. Wisteria*

          Yes. I didn’t get to meet her bc she wasn’t in that day, but they described her role just like they would describe the role of anyone else in a high level role at the company. And, every time we walked by something that was her idea, the person with me would point it out as her work. For example, she insisted on larger cubes (which I loved) with doors (which I loved) and large windows (which I hated). The kitchen/break area actually looked a little like a diner. It was quite a selling point, that they had someone in the role of caring about the people at the company. It’s a good selling point, just don’t call her my mom. I have a mom. And I’m probably the same age as this woman.

    5. AnotherLibrarian*

      My three big ones:
      1. A job where they kept saying how well they compensated people, but their salaries were public (State Uni) and were about 15K below market value for the area and the work.
      2. A job where they said they were hiring a “trainee” but in the interview confessed they had no one to train that person.
      3. A job where asked how they planned to meet the challenges of their organization, multiple people in different interviews said, “Collaboration and Innovation” and then gave no other explanation of what that meant. I still don’t know what it means.
      4. The job where the director seemed shocked that I worked for a Christian college despite not being Christian and suggested that I must be leaving because of how “closed minded those places are.”
      5. The interview where the interviewer spent the entire interview insulting their predecessor with whom I had worked closely 5 years earlier and who was listed on my resume as my supervisor at the time. It was… awkward.

    6. Narvo Flieboppen*

      Oh, the best one turned into a 4 hour interview. Though I knew shortly into it that I wasn’t taking the job, I wanted to see how deep the rabbit hole went. To be clear, it is a small, local, family owned business. I was scheduled to interview with the wife/co-owner. It wound up being an interview with the wife, husband, both sons, and one daughter-in-law.

      Let’s just hit some of the highlights:

      The ‘staff accountant’ role encompassed full CPA-level work for the business. They refused to hire an outside CPA, but wouldn’t specify why. I have thoughts on this.

      One of the specific job duties is to always eavesdrop on phone calls taken by the husband and to take notes on what he agrees to do, because he doesn’t take notes and forgets to do those things. BUT, you must also always stay focused on getting your own work done.

      Another specific ‘accounting’ duty is to mediate between the wife and husband when they are fighting. Which is frequent. Basically, they sit 8 feet apart, but refuse to talk to one another. So the accountant has to get up from the other office, walk out to one of their desks to pick up a note, walk it to the other spouse’s desk, wait for a written response and walk it back. Repeat ad nauseum for ‘a day or two each week’ until they calm down and start talking again.

      All company backups are burned to CD at the end of the night and hung on a nail. If there is a fire, someone has to grab the backup on their way out. Something like Carbonite or another online cloud storage is ‘too expensive’ and ‘the cloud can’t be trusted’ with their irreplaceable company database which went back decades.

      They described their PTO as “extremely generous”. 3 holidays per year and 1 week paid vacation after your first year. Then you build up vacation 1 day per year, until you max out at two weeks vacation at the end of 6 years on the job. When I suggested I was going to ask for 3 weeks vacation up front, the wife’s eyes literally bugged out. Also, no sick days because they “don’t believe in sick time, since most employees just take advantage of it.”

      The business was attached to their house and a second business was on the same property. The second business was being audited by the IRS, for multiple years. The accounts for that business, and the wife’s personal checking account had all been frozen as part of the audit process, but “don’t worry about it, you know how the IRS oversteps on audits.” I suspect the refusal to hire an outside CPA was linked to their inability to maintain proper books and make tax payments.

      For the accountants and financially minded, here’s a nightmare scenario: In over 50+ years of business, the checking account had never been reconciled. And didn’t need to be, because “there’s always money in it when we write a check.”

      The promise of office dogs was not enough to convince me to step into this nest of bees.

  77. MissCoco*

    My new thesis co-advisor tends to make a comment, and then explains it over and over. Some of that gives me useful context, and I can generalize a critique to other situations, but then it keeps going, and it is really dragging out our meetings.

    Example: We’re going over a teapot design project, and I have 5 new teapot designs for her to look at.
    Advisor: On this first teapot, I think it would be more balanced if you added flowers to both sides.
    Me: Oh, that will look much better, I’ll make that change before I finalize the design
    A: It’s just that when it’s all on one side, the teapot doesn’t look as nice from the back, and some people like to sit around their teapot during tea
    Me: I’d never thought of that, but it makes sense, I’ll keep that in mind on my next teapot design as well
    A: Balance in teapot design is important. I always tell new teapot designers to look at their teapot from every angle before submitting it.
    Me: I’ll do that from now on
    A: I like the pattern on the first side, but by leaving the other side blank, there is a lot of unused space on the teapot. I think the effect will be stronger if you have more coverage.
    Me: Thanks, I agree that it will be much better when I add some elements to the back.
    A: Teapots should be attractive from every side . . .

    This often will continue for several minutes or more, and by the end I’m worrying she doesn’t believe I’m going to add flowers to the back of the teapot, and I’m putting a ton of effort into being super sincere and enthusiastic about a useful, but quite small nugget of design info, and then we do it all again on the next design!

    Some other factors: I’m a student and she’s an important expert in her field, but she’s definitely my secondary co-advisor. It is academia though, so there is a certain amount of genuflection that is expected, especially towards her.
    I don’t really mind losing a few hours to long meetings over the next couple years, but I also feel like I could be dealing with it better.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      “and by the end I’m worrying she doesn’t believe I’m going to add flowers to the back of the teapot”

      Oh, you are totally misinterpreting her! She’s giving you great information, but you’re in a hurry to just file away the change and move on. Every one of those things she’s telling you is important for your overall education, and you should be soaking all of that stuff up.

      She doesn’t want you to add more flowers. She wants you to understand the entire field of teapot design, and all the ramifications of it.

      1. cubone*

        I agree with this in theory, but I’d be curious if the supervisor is repeating it to the OP over and over?

        I got the impression from their “hurry to file it away” that the info being provided is very repetitive, or very obvious stuff that she really doesn’t need to be educated on time and time again. But that’s an assumption. If it is “education for the field”, maybe you could try making a point of restating her “education” the next time: “I have the new teapot design to share, I made sure to have designs on both sides since teapots should be attractive from all sides” (not “because you said teapots should be attractive from all sides”, but more like restating it as a fact that informed your choices to demonstrate these nuggets are standard practice to you now).

        1. MissCoco*

          It is quite repetitive, they are typically small details. I would describe them as tips most of the time.
          Some of them are new, but others are really obvious to me, and in either case they are things that can easily be changed now and in the future, not things that would need extensive clarification or effort to apply.

          I like the advice to mention how I’m using her advice moving forward though, because I do get the impression that something about my demeanor is making her feel I am not . . . something enough.

          1. cubone*

            I mean, you could always take the classic AAM advice and bring it up curiously, if you feel like it’s an ongoing problem. Eg. “I wanted to bring up something I’ve been noticing. You give me great feedback on teapot designs that I agree with but after I share that I agree with and plan to use the feedback, you’ll provide me with more explanation and reiterate the feedback a few times. It’s making me wonder if you don’t trust me to take your advice in the way you’d like. Can we talk about this?” (not sure this is the most elegant, but hopefully you get the idea – curious, focused more on understanding what’s going on, etc.)

            as always, I think that’s something you have to weigh if you think your supervisor will respond negatively, or appreciate the opportunity to say “actually, yes, I do worry you don’t understand my feedback”.

          2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

            When she brings up the first thing, and you know what’s coming next, can you proactively jump to “oh yes, because that will make it more balanced.”? Which shows that you actually get it, and that you’re engaging in an academic dialog with her, not just passively waiting for her to tell you what to do.

            1. MissCoco*

              That has not been successful when I’ve tried it, but I’m hoping it will once she gets to know me better, and has more evidence that I actually am able to engage in academic dialog.

      2. Anonymous Koala*

        I think this is spot on. When you’re an expert, sometimes you have perspective that means those ‘tiny’ things aren’t actually tiny at all. Maybe she’s trying to give you good information, and she’s trying to impress upon you how important the placement of the flowers are to the design as a whole.
        When I started in my PhD program my thesis advisor did this all the time. Things like telling me to change the color of the bars in a graph, or getting upset about typos in ID numbers in my notes. At the time I thought she was just being picky, but after spending some time in the field I realized that she was trying to teach me important lessons about norms in the field, and cultivate a sense of precision that turns out to be invaluable in our field. Your thesis advisor might not be a great communicator, but I wouldn’t assume that she’s just verbose or repeating herself. Maybe all of those things she’s telling you are really important in their own right, and she’s trying to help you fix a larger issue with those notes.

    2. cubone*

      This is really hard and I don’t think can be fixed from you upwards, it’s more likely that person’s supervisor would need to coach them to be more concise. I’ll be honest, I had this problem as a manager and my boss just noted it and helped me practice giving more direct feedback: “x needs to change because y” and not all this circling.

      I would be tempted to try just…. dialing back your response? Just “great, will do!” and then when she continues to explain, nod or give a “mm-hmm”. I see how you’re trying to do that, but I wonder if even “I agree” or “I’ll do that from now on” is giving her the impression you’re learning from what she’s saying and she ought to continue?

      As Allison always says, caveat that academia is an absolute wildcard with very different norms.

      1. MissCoco*

        I think you just hit the nail on the head with this comment.

        In addition to verbals I actually try to look and project very interested/invested energy because a former boss (also academia, big surprise) would keep repeating a topic till she felt I was sufficiently *emotionally* invested.
        It really never occurred to me that of course someone who wasn’t on a quest to make sure employees cared “enough” would be likely to react to unusually intense interest about a minor detail as wanting to hear more about it.

        If nothing else, I will feel less tired after conversations where I am putting less effort into being VERY EXCITED about feedback.

        1. Wisteria*

          ” a former boss (also academia, big surprise) would keep repeating a topic till she felt I was sufficiently *emotionally* invested.”

          I have noticed this as a general rule about people. When they keep repeating something, it is frequently because the response I gave was not the response they wanted, for whatever reason. Maybe they wanted a different response entirely, maybe they wanted more validation, maybe they wanted sufficient emotional investment, whatever. The script I suggested, with repeating what she said back to her, was built on active listening skills that are supposed to show that you heard and understood, but it won’t be effective if she is looking for something different.

          Just curious, how did you figure out that your former boss didn’t think you were displaying enough emotional investment?

          1. MissCoco*

            She eventually told me, after being really unsatisfied with my performance for quite awhile, while still being happy with all the actual work I was doing. Eventually I asked her what was going on (and a bunch of follow-up questions), and she said I clearly didn’t care about my work because . . . And all the behaviors were just different ways to express emotions than my natural way to emote, so I just started play acting in those specific ways. It worked fine, but obviously wasn’t the most healthy

    3. Wisteria*

      Have you ever tried wrapping it up and moving to the next topic? After 3 or so comments about the importance of a balanced teapot design, try something like,

      “So I’ll go ahead and add the flowers to the other side to balance the design and make the effect stronger, and I’ll make sure I look at it from every side once I’ve made the revisions. I’ve got the design review scheduled for the 24th. Can we spend a few minutes talking about who should be present?”

      Or whatever subject change you want. The key is repeating her words back to her. You might find that she resists the subject change and goes back to telling you about balancing designs, but that is important information about how to communicate with her.

      Sadly, it’s not just academia where SMEs go on and on, so redirecting them to keep the conversation on topic is a good skill to have.

      1. MissCoco*

        This script is great, thanks!

        Since we only meet weekly, I always come with a set of questions, and in these cases I can just pull any one of those off the list to move the conversation forward.

    4. Sounds Familiar*

      Ugh, it sounds like you’re working for my brother. He has a strong tendency to keep making his case, to the point where I interrupt and say “I’m not arguing, I just agreed with you!” In an educational context . . . maybe your advisor is used to re-explaining stuff to students who don’t listen?

  78. Parade Float Heiress*

    TW for Politics and white nationalist content

    I have an issue with a coworker I’m not sure how to address. For the most part, I try to keep my politics out of the workplace and so does he… for the most part. But every now and then he will make declarative statements in work meetings about world events that just flat out are not true and cross into conspiracy theory territory. Once he pretended to get a news alert about liberal protestors storming the state capitol (none of the rest of us got that notification and a google search yielded no recent events of the kind.) More recently and more troublingly, he went on a rant about the “recent slaughter of white farmers in South Africa” and when I fact-checked on my own, I found this to be a 3-year-old white nationalist conspiracy theory that has been widely debunked. What is my responsibility here? I don’t want to damage relationships in my small department but I also feel very uncomfortable not saying anything at all, lest someone take what he’s saying as fact.

    1. RC Rascal*

      Stay out of it. Your co-workers have critical thinking skills of their own they can use to decide whether or not they want to believe this guy. They probably already think he’s nuts.

    2. Colette*

      “That’s not true.”
      “Wow.”
      “I haven’t seen anything about that.”
      “Please leave that talk outside of work.”

      I think you want to avoid arguing on the facts, because he clearly isn’t living in a fact-based world. But I also think your goal is to avoid making your workplace a place where his nonsense is welcome.

      1. voyager1*

        That is where I landed too. Just ask him to stop, you’re not going to convince him of anything. Just focus on the behavior being disruptive.

    3. Charlotte Lucas*

      I think it’s fair to ask people for sources of “news.”

      Also, Snopes is your friend when dealing with this. They’ve been doing a great job debunking during the pandemic.

    4. Malarkey01*

      My tolerance for this has gotten pretty thin. For something like the Google alert I would immediately pick up my phone and say that’s awful! Happening now? Can someone pull up a news site to see if it’s as bad as January 6th?? Treat it like a real urgent news alert if he’s going to announce it in a meeting …and then sit there in silence while googling and then say Bob are you sure? I’m not seeing anything? (But sound so confused)
      For the farmer one if you can again be a little confused and then say “wait is this like that white nationalist lie that went around three years ago?”

      I know it seems awkward but I’ve been using a little more confused/clueless tone to call out a few things that are point blank nuts (and not like a disagreement about police funding or the appropriate role of government mandating vaccines but stuff like a fake riot or outright lies like the vaccines erase your memory!!)

    5. Mari*

      When I have been in that situation of not wanting to damage relationships or get people involved in a debate, I just treat debunking it as something they will be happy to know. Like “Oh, you’ll be happy to know, I looked up that South Africa farmers thing and that was a story from a few years ago that was proven false. What a relief, huh. I knew you would want to know.” Said in a neutral, helpful, breezy, just imparting information tone of voice. Tone of voice is especially important.

  79. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    I actually got, then kept and was promoted in, a much more stable job that uses my skills. Totally remote.

    But it’s BECAUSE of Covid. Let’s just say government contracts have really grown and hired since last year. It got me a high level clearance, value and respect at home, pandemic safety from making enough to stay out of the gig economy, and now, a salary that’s basically the lottery win from In the Heights. It took four months to get clearance and I wasn’t cut for performance like a few people, so it feels stable.

    So my question is twofold:

    1. How do I deal with guilt about being happy for my life improvements due to covid when so many are struggling; and

    2. Historically, I’ve only rarely been the main income earner, so I usually am careful in spending and ask for things. I’ve not had financial understanding or control due to that and what’s likely dyscalculia. How do I make decisions now I’m being asked what we should do and the relationship dynamics are changing?

    1. Colette*

      1. I think you can both be happy about your good circumstances and understand that that’s not the case for everyone. (And that is true regardless of COVID.) You are not harming anyone by making a living wage.

      2. Figure out what your financial goals are – pay off debt? save for a vacation? give to those less fortunate?
      I don’t know how your finances are structured, but can you and your partner set an amount aside for each of you to spend on whatever you want? (If you struggle with tracking money, cash works, because when it’s gone, it’s gone.)

      If you’re the kind of person who is diligent about tracking spending, you could do something like you need a budget for tracking (or a spreadsheet set up to do the work for you). I am not that person, but it works for some people. That would keep you from going overboard with spending, if you’re worried about that.

      If you don’t know what your goals are, make a list of everything you can dream of and start prioritizing.

      What about an emergency fund? Retirement? Those are good things to get in the habit of saving for, if you’re not already.

    2. Allypopx*

      First off – CONGRATULATIONS.

      I also have had some great things happen to me because of/during covid and have also been dealing with some guilt. But the thing is – covid isn’t anything we individually caused, and you’ve always read like a conscientious person to me so I doubt you’re going around as a superspreader. Yes a lot of people have been suffering, and that’s awful and we can mourn it. But many of us have also just had to live our lives under these circumstances, and inevitably the ripple effects will benefit some. You have nothing to feel guilty about.

      How do you and your partner handle finances now? Do you have to become the decision maker simply because it’s mostly your money? If your partner is more comfortable calculating financial stuff can that still be their wheelhouse? Ultimately it’s a relationship decision but it doesn’t *have* to change just because you’re earning more money.

    3. Donkey Hotey*

      Yup. First things first: congratulations. To continue the ITH reference, no one feels guilty about winning the lottery. You are in the right place at the right time. Say “thank you” and move forward.

      Part one: I tend to keep stuff close to the vest as far as “we’ve been very fortunate” when discussing with people. As to the financial side of things, we donated (including our stimulus checks) to different organizations we knew to be either struggling or doing extra work because of the pandemic.

      Part two: If by relationship dynamics you mean your financial relationship with your partner, it can be tough but having a heart-to-heart with your partner can be surprising. Case in point, my spouse makes about double what I do. When we talked about it, she suggested we adjust how much we each contribute for house stuff, but I still felt strongly about splitting the day-to-day stuff 50-50 because I can do so and still feel like an equal partner. However, Spouse does pick up more side-line things because they have the bandwidth to do so.

      1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

        Totally! I donated to my neonatal pet rescue I back because covid means fewer spays and neuters, so they’re super overwhelmed with babies. And I opened an account with Kiva, gave a $250 loan to a single mom with three kids in Kenya- she needed to pay back tuition owed so her kids could go back to school so she can run her business again and thus get by and pay back the loan. Get someone out of that childcare ouruburous!

    4. ThatGirl*

      1. We also had a better year than a lot of people and ended up financially ahead – but I’ve realized it doesn’t help anyone for me to suffer needlessly. I did set up a recurring donation at a local food pantry that also provides helpful and necessary services for low-income and houseless people, to spread the wealth a bit, and if I see a worthy cause or GoFundMe, I know I can throw a few bucks someone’s way without it putting a crimp in our budget.

      2. I’m not totally sure what you’re looking for here – do you want more say in how the household money is spent? Better understanding of your budget? Either way though, the key is to talk about it, figure out what you want/need, and ask for it. If there are things you’ve been wanting to do with money and now you have it, well, time to start! If you need help with math or budgeting or numbers, no shame there – there’s help to be had.

    5. RagingADHD*

      1) Stewardship > guilt. If you are doing well, shore up your financial stability for the long term and then spread some around. If you are doing some lifestyle upgrades, patronize local businesses. Give to local charities. Be generous wherever you can.

      2) Do some financial education jointly with your partner so you can agree on a shared set of priorities and goals. If you don’t mind some advice from an old straight married lady, having to ask for things from your partner, and not being consulted because you earn less…doesn’t sound like an awesome dynamic in general.

      I believe partners should decide things together, regardless of who earns more. Maybe this will be a good opportunity for both of you to re-examine or re-program some of your inner scripts about money and relationships.

  80. Rude????*

    Anon for this. Someone confirm for me there’s no point in trying to respond to this rudeness…

    Just a couple minutes ago, one coworker (call her Jane) IM’d our team a heads up that she would be working through lunch and leaving half an hour early. (This is standard for our culture – we get a lot of phone calls so it’s relevant to know if someone’s not available during office hours.)

    Immediately, another coworker (Mary) responded “I’ll be working through lunch too but not leaving early because I have so much work :)”

    Just. This drives me mad. No one needs to know that Mary is working through lunch, so the only point to the message was to act superior for working harder or having a heavier workload or whatever.

    I’m tempted to respond, especially because Jane is still new! You can’t implicitly shame new people for doing totally normal things! I know I shouldn’t say “wow rude Mary” or anything but can I say something like “Thanks for letting us know, Jane!” and let the silence toward Mary speak for itself? Ugh.

    1. Allypopx*

      Let the silence speak for itself. I totally get your impulse to call Mary out, but not reacting to the fishing is going to be the most effective.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Talk to Jane one on one. Let her know that what she did was the right way to do things, and what Mary did is just passive-aggressive snark.

    3. HalloweenCat*

      I would ignore Mary and just respond to Jane so she knows what she is doing is TOTALLY FINE AND NORMAL and Mary is being a dillweed.

    4. Rude????*

      Thanks all! I started typing a PM to Jane (we’re remote so no just dropping by her desk), thought that was weirdly heavy handed and could seem gossipy if she wasn’t bothered by the comment, started typing to the person who trained Jane to ask if they thought she understood it was ok to leave early, nixed that plan for the same reason, and ended up with the public “Thanks for letting us know Jane” after all that LOL.

      The kicker is I’m sure Mary has no idea how rude this came off. She was just…sharing how her day was going. I’m not about to try to tell her :/

  81. meyer lemon*

    I’m starting a new job that will take me into the outside world for the first time in years, and I’ve realized that I don’t really know what is typical to carry your work stuff in. Is a nice backpack or bike pannier acceptable? Or should I try to get something more formal? I honestly don’t even know what that would be since I’ve never worked in a very formal office.

    1. Now In the Job*

      Depends on formality level of your office. I see a TON of professional backpacks/laptop backpacks in downtown DC for consulting firms and all kinds of other office jobs. But I would expect something more polished in something like a BigLaw office.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Depends on the formality of your office. I (a woman) have always used large shoulder tote-style purses to carry my crap around, and I have male colleagues who use briefcases or backpacks. Just try to get one that looks sleek and polished rather than “I used this to lug books in high school”. When in doubt, leather or leather-like reads much more professional than canvas.

    3. Policy Wonk.*

      Use whatever makes you comfortable. I’d recommend you start with something you already own, such as a backpack. If you want something nicer, use the first week or two to look at what others use, then search out what you really want.

    4. meyer lemon*

      Thanks everyone! I’m still trying to gauge the formality level myself, but I come from pretty informal environments so everything seems formal to me by comparison. It’s a staff position with a university, if that helps.

  82. Mint Flavor is King*

    I was suddenly given volunteers to manage and…I honestly don’t know what to do with them. I’m not the manager of my department but because the volunteers want to help in X and my responsibilities are in X, I was kinda just given them.

    There are tasks volunteers could help me with but I’m quickly learning that it takes me time to train them and I’m struggling with what I should expect of their work output/quality. I’m assigning them what you could call lower level work of my job responsibilities, which, ideally, should free up my time to work on bigger projects, but I’m still having to manage their quality of the work.

    I’m concerned how to move forward with this.

    1. Colette*

      I think volunteers need the same things employees need:
      – clear direction as to what they are supposed to be doing
      – feedback on how they’re doing

      Are these long-term volunteers? I.e. if you spend time training them and getting their work up to an acceptable level, is it going to result in less work for you over time?

      Is there documentation/checklists that will help them get their work up to the standard they need to hit?

      If they’re really not going to be useful, you could try talking to your manager and explaining that.

      1. Pocket Mouse*

        Building on Colette’s input- if documentation/checklists don’t yet exist, give different tasks to each intern and have them create these documents as part of their responsibilities. I think this both softens the blow of feedback (since it’s a matter of ‘thanks for making sure I shared that info’) and makes the time you spend on it more productive in the long term, reducing the need for similar intensity the next time around.

  83. Anna*

    I’ve disliked most 1-on-1 meetings or performance reviews I’ve had with bosses. Now I have a direct report, and I’d like to have something like a 1-on-1 with her. I think a big part of why I haven’t liked 1-on-1s with my manager is that she seemed closed off, and frankly, was just not a people person at all.

    What are some things that your managers have done, or that you’ve done with direct reports that helped create an open, positive relationship, and 1-on-1s where you both left feeling better, not worse?

    1. Anna*

      Also, normally I would take someone out to coffee for this meeting (first one, new team for her etc) but thats not doable right now with WFH. Would it be weird to send her like a gift card – Starbucks does have some $10 ones that are for this exact purpose.

      1. Anonymous Koala*

        I would err on the side of not sending the gift card, but you could take her out to coffee the next time you see her in person. In my office a supervisor giving gifts to a new employee would be weird, but if it’s the norm for new hires in your office it’s probably fine.

        1. Anna*

          She lives in a different state so I’m not sure when that will be! But I agree that this would be a lot more normal in person rather than by gift card

          1. Wisteria*

            A gift card would be impersonal, so it wouldn’t give the connection that taking her out to coffee would. What if you ordered coffee for her using something like UberEats and had it delivered during the one on one? I’m picturing you asking her what she likes to drink and telling her your intention. “Rosalia, I usually take direct reports out for coffee or tea for our first meeting. Since we can’t go out, I would love to have your favorite drink delivered during our meeting. What do you think?” It might be too weird, she might find it too close, she might not want to give you her home address, etc. If she says anything along the lines of no, just leave it and say you will buy her coffee when you are back in the office. Then remember you said that and do it. :)

    2. Colette*

      Most manager I’ve worked for start the meeting with something like “how are you doing?” – which is a nice, open question that gives me a chance to say “great! everything’s on track”, “frustrated with this spout issue”, “man, I didn’t sleep well last night, so today is a slog”, or “really busy, I have a ton of questions for you”.

    3. Wisteria*

      What do *you* want to get out of it? What do you want your direct report to bring to you? Are these things you want to discuss? Count on having to drive the meeting yourself at first.

      Make sure you are having a dialogue, not just telling your direct report things. Eventually, you want your direct report to be bringing things up on their own, not just responding to questions, so at some point, start the transition from you driving to them driving.

      Ask your direct report what would be helpful to them in these meetings, and then do that. I asked to have an agenda for my one on ones bc I have no idea what my manager wants to talk about. I did not get that agenda. Our one on ones are useless.

      2. Anna*

        I will definitely have an agenda – I put up one thats general in case she wants to talk about something totally different but still provides a plan. My 1-on-1s are useless because there is no agenda too.

        And I will certainly make sure its a dialogue. One of the things I’m particularly annoyed about with my manager is the lecture she gave me on problems that she had been hoarding instead of mentioning them at the time like a normal person.

    4. RosyGlasses*

      I like the tips and tools I learned through LifeLabs Learning on Effective 1:1s. We’ve been using their template (a revised version) and tools over the past year and it’s really helped our teams flourish.

  84. Garnet, Crystal Gem*

    Hello AAM! I wrote in last week about being a bit frazzled/ineloquent re: having conversations with my manager in our weekly 1:1s. For added context I’m about a month into this role.

    Today, I didn’t exactly have that problem (yay!), but I’m realizing part of what has made me that way in the past is perhaps a difference in personalities or conversation styles?

    I’m trying to use this time to build a rapport with him and I’m not getting the sense that we’re fully clicking, or maybe he’s not picking up on my enthusiasm for the work?

    Transitions from small talk to talk about the work are always a teeny bit awkward, despite me having an agenda and asking questions. And there are usually awkward pauses on either end in the conversation.

    Towards the end of our check-in today I mentioned having a broad convo about feedback in our next session. If there’s something I can do on my end to make the conversation flow naturally in these meetings, I’d like to do that!

    Yesterday’s thread about the “unapproachable” manager is heavy on my mind, and I’m worried I’m not signaling enough enthusiasm or personality? Or maybe he thinks I’m not using the time effectively?

    I’m pretty warm in general and I always make a lighthearted comment or joke or two in our exchanges. I’ve been pretty quiet in team meetings, but that’s because I’m new and still taking the fly on the wall approach.

    Is he awkward? Or is it me? Or are we still trying to warm up to each other? Help!

    This hasn’t been an issue for me in the past but it’s beginning to make me anxious.

    1. Garnet, Crystal Gem*

      Writing this out allowed me to reflect a bit more and I’m realizing that when I kick of the call and ask questions, he reciprocates the small talk, but only to a certain extent, which sometimes makes me fumble and try to find another talking point or hard to transition.

      Once I switch over to talking about the work the chat flows a bit more naturally but still has its awkward moments. He’s been giving me a lot of advice (and its helpful) but I’m wondering if that’s because I’m not asking enough questions, or the right ones?

      I’ve just never had 1:1s be so nebulous and I really want this job to work.

      1. Wisteria*

        He’s not into small talk. Just let that part go. Open with generic pleasantries that we all lie about (“How’s it going?” “Great!”) and move immediately into the work talk. He might not be an effusive person in general, and that’s ok. I find it hard to talk to non-effusive people bc I am too autistic to carry a conversation by myself. It’s important to know that just bc you and I find it awkward to carry a conversation with a non-effusive person, that doesn’t make that person wrong for being non-effusive. Just find a way to let the awkwardness go and carry on with what you need.

        You could also ask someone else for tips on how to be effective talking to him. I do that a lot.

        1. Garnet, Crystal Gem*

          Thanks for the input! I’m not actually pressed about his demeanor and the lack of small talk is fine by me, though I get how my follow up may have indicated otherwise.

          I’m just not sure what he’s looking for in terms of engagement from me during our 1:1s. I come prepared with questions, sometimes I have small ones, sometimes I have bigger meatier ones. But I get the sense that he’s expecting me to be more inquisitive or conversational re: the work in our chats, and I’m just not there yet. I’m in a period of high absorption right now.

          1. Garnet, Crystal Gem*

            If anything, my worry is that I’M not effusive enough about the work and that’s sowing doubt for him.

      2. Unkempt Flatware*

        IME and IMO, interpersonal rapport comes only after working together for a while. I’d stop trying to engage on small talk. I myself can sense the “try” and it makes me bristle. Just let it go, do the work with him, and allow the relationship to form based on the work. It will happen but only if you don’t try to force it.

        1. Garnet, Crystal Gem*

          Fair enough! My concern is less about “forcing it” and more about establishing a rapport that indicates I’m engaged and interested in the work, but I can see how an attempt to build that without showcasing my work first may feel fake.

          1. Unkempt Flatware*

            For what it’s worth, you seem extremely personable. I predict he’ll be more chatty before you know it!

  85. Give M&E A Break*

    I’ve been working in government consulting (adult learning, training delivery and transitioned into very low level data analysis) since 2015. In 2017, I made the choice to transition career fields from government consulting to monitoring and evaluation. To that end, I completed a 9 month online graduate certificate while working FT. I’ve been trying to break into this field since completing the program in 2019. It’s 2021. I’ve done over 20 information interviews, been on multiple job interviews and what it comes down to is I don’t have the foundation I need to make the leap. (My data analysis work is more like data cleaning.)

    I don’t know if I should go to a nearby institute that specializes in the field to refresh myself, go back to university or just give up. I’m so, so tired. (Also, I can’t do something like an unpaid internship as I’m 34 with bills, responsibilities and a live-in partner.)

    The heck do I do?

    1. Anonymous Koala*

      I think this depends a lot on:
      (1) what the additional training you need consists of – how long is it, how expensive is it, could you do it while working FT? And is it a guaranteed path to the career you want?
      (2) how clear your path is after you get the additional training you need – will you continue working with your employer? (and will they pay for the training?) do you have industry contacts who you know can and will help you find a job quickly?
      (3) what you would do if you didn’t jump into data analytics – are you capped out in your current role, are there other roles you like that require less education, etc?

      I would do some soul searching and really see how much you want to invest in this, and what the payoff will realistically look like. There’s no point in investing a significant amount of time and money just because you’ve already sunk time/money into a project. If you can swing the additional training without stretching too hard, you know what you’ll do with the degree, and you really love this field – go for it. But don’t be afraid to think creatively about your other options.

      1. Give M&E A Break*

        @Anonymous Koala All good questions to ponder!

        1) The courses would be a few days and consist of anything from $120-$1000, depending. All during the week so I’d have to take time off. :-/
        2) I’d plan to keep working for my employer after getting the training, and even having the training doesn’t guarantee much. (I don’t know that they’d pay for the training, and if they did I’d owe them X number of years before they consider their investment paid off. If I left the organization I’d have to pay back the balance owed immediately.) I have industry contacts who are very helpful humans, but even their contacts can’t overcome a lack of experience. I’m looking at entry level jobs with less than 3 years of experience, so it’s not like I’m reaching for the stars here.
        3) I’m actually working within my company to identify M&E opportunities, which starts with working on contract proposals, etc. Data analysis seems like the most direct route to do the thing.

        Your last point is a really good one. I’ve already done 9 months of post-graduate certificate work and applied to damn near every organization in my region that I thought I qualified for. *big sigh* Lots of stuff to think about.

        1. Anonymous Koala*

          If I’m reading this right, it sounds like your experience is pretty far away from the jobs you want to get. If that’s the case, you may want to weigh the relative value of the short courses vs. going back to Uni for a 1 year masters or similar length degree in your field. In my field short courses are not valued very highly but degrees are; ymmv, of course.
          Also just fwiw, sometimes if you switch jobs in the middle of an education repayment plan, your new company will give you a small signing bonus to cover the cost. In my experience signing bonuses are a little easier to negotiate than salary raises because companies are more willing to give 1 time money rather than commit to something long term. Not a guarantee, but maybe something to consider.
          Lots of stuff to think about for sure. I was in a similar position a few years ago, and it is really demoralizing sometimes. In my case school was the right choice, but everyone’s different and I know it’s a tough call. Best of luck :)

  86. DivineMissL*

    Hi, I’m debating sending this question to Alison, but I’ve only got a few days to decide so I’m trying the open forum instead. I welcome your thoughts (Alison, from you too, if you are reading this).

    I’m a longtime EA, and I’ve been offered the opportunity to take over as the HR person when they retire at the end of this year. I am very capable of doing the job, I would just have to be trained between now and the end of the year. It would involve a significant pay increase (18%), although I currently work 35 hours non-exempt and this would probably be 40 hours exempt, so the hourly rate is about the same. However, the pay bump would increase my pensionable salary so when I retire (in 3-5 years), my pension would be significantly increased. Other than this offer, there is really no other transfer/promotion available to me that would increase my pay like this; I’d have to go elsewhere.

    However. I am not really interested in HR at all. So I would spend 3-5 years doing a job I don’t want or like, but I would reward future DivineMissL with more money at retirement. Commenters – what would you do? TIA

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I think I’d want to know what all HR encompasses at your work place (is placing job ads and screening resumes part of the workload or not, etc.) and see if there’s a particular part of the job that you are particularly turned off by.

      And then I’d drill down on what exactly “not interested” means to you. Could you tolerate doing the work, or would you actively dislike it? Do you need to feel interested in every aspect of your job in order to get energized and be productive, or are you fine just coasting through the drudgery parts to get to the interesting parts?

      1. DivineMissL*

        Thanks Alton. It’s a lot of filling out forms for pensions, new hires, health insurance, status changes, payroll, employee discipline, etc., plus managing employee files, handling insurance claims, employee liability, and making sure employees are completing required training and such. In other words, a lot of paperwork.

        I guess what I mean is, I enjoy my current job but my pay is stagnated. I have to think about my retirement in a few years, and I’m hesitant to give up my current position (EA to the C-suite, which is fun but limited) and then find out that I hate HR but I’m stuck with it. Then again, I only have to do it for about 1000 days…

        1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          Right. So you just have to ask yourself if you can make it through 1000 days of boring paperwork in exchange for the money. If you’ve ever had stretches as an EA where you had boring, repetitive work (like addressing holiday cards for a week), did you come through that ok? Or were you climbing the walls to do something else?

    2. WellRed*

      There’s lots of different types of HR. Do you know specifically what the role entails! For example, is it a generalist position or a benefits specialist? Do you have power to do the job right even when it’s difficult ( sexual harassing CEO). Also why are they offering you the job at all? Is your EA position at risk in some way?

      1. DivineMissL*

        Thanks WellRed. They’re offering me the job because they like to promote from within, and I’m the one person here they trust to do it well. So it’s a compliment. If I say no, they will probably hire an outside HR firm. My current job is not at risk; I’ve been doing it very well for 15 years. So I can stay as the EA, but there’s no way I’ll get my salary increased this much before I retire (in our pension system, it’s based on your highest 3 years of salary – so if I do HR for 3 years, my pension will be significantly higher). I’m 59 now, retirement eligibility age is 60. I could do this for 3 years, collect my pension, and then go work somewhere else full-time.

        1. Pocket Mouse*

          Echoing Alton Brown’s Evil Twin with a slant: could you do the HR job for 1000 days for a significantly higher pension, or (since you’re so close to eligible retirement age) for 500 days for a moderately higher pension?

          Also, since you seem willing to work elsewhere full time in 3-5 years, is there a reason to wait until then to see if you can find a job with a pay boost- what if you leave when you turn 60 at your current pension level for a job that has 18+% higher pay for the rest of your working years? If it comes down primarily to finances you might be able to math out a necessary course, but if it comes down to enjoyment and comfort, I’d say definitely don’t choose a course that will cause you major stress, and consider the course you feel is most appealing.

          1. DivineMissL*

            Hmmm. That’s a good point, Pocket Mouse, it doesn’t have to be 3 years. I’ve always joked that my retirement plan is Death – I figure I will have to keep working until I physically can’t work anymore, and then hope my kids put me in a halfway decent nursing home. But it’s not really a joke – I do have the fear that something may happen that will force me to stop working and I won’t be able to pay the bills. So I’m leaning towards sucking it up, taking the money now; then hope that it’s tolerable for 1000 days and I am able to work as long as I can after that.

            I am currently looking for a better-paying job anyway, but I’m well-paid for an EA around here, and it’s really hard to make that leap out of an Administrative position to a management or supervisor spot. Plus it’s hard to start over with vacation, sick, holidays, etc.

            Thanks to everyone for your comments – I appreciate the different views! You’re all so helpful!

            1. Llama Wrangler*

              Do you have reason to think that some of the responsibilities and skills you get from this HR position would make it easier to find better-paying jobs afterwards? That’s another plus to doing it besides the money. (But echo everyone else’s comments about it being your decision about whether it will feel tolerable or not.)

    3. Ins mom*

      Also, will you receive quality training beforehand? Or have resources for the higher-level issues that come up? Based on what I read here, there’s a lot of mediocre HR out there and I can tell you don’t want to be one of them

      1. DivineMissL*

        Thanks Ins mom. The current HR Director would train me before they leave in December; and my company would pay for any needed HR certifications/training. So I’d come out of it after my 1000 days with HR experience; but by then I will be 63, and some employers may be reluctant to hire someone who may only work a few years.

        1. RosyGlasses*

          The nice thing about HR is that you can always consult or do part time gigs as well (if you’re good and you have the certifications and experience). I don’t really see as many issues with ageism for these types of roles, anecdotally.

    4. Happy Lurker*

      I would absolutely find out more about the role. A pay bump that big heading into retirement might make the job more tolerable. Your comment about 1000 days is spot on. It goes so fast (sometimes). You could mentally mark a future date and work to that.
      I have a taped and re-taped sticky note with a payoff date, it is 10 years old and since past. I keep it to remind me how fast time goes by and how much $100 a week can matter.

    5. have we met?*

      You would be not only rewarding Future Retired DivineMissL, but also rewarding Future HR Person DivineMissL with the pay increase!

      Personally, I am very worried about my retirement. An 18% boost in current pay plus resulting pension boost would be a huge temptation for me. I think I could tolerate a lot of job indifference for that.

      And, while it sounds like a lot of boring paperwork, you might find aspects of it that you enjoy. And it’s only 3-5 years if not.

    6. beach read*

      Your retirement Social Security will increase too if this new job is higher than what you earned in the past. Would you be able to do a “day in the life” day or two just to get a “behind the scenes” look before you decide? Good luck to you!

  87. Construction Safety*

    Our new, unpublished vacation policy now grants us a third week of vacation on our 10th anniversary. It used to be on the 5th.

    2. Donkey Hotey*

      Ugh, that sucks.

      That said, our company just changed the policy where we earn our fourth week of vacation at 20 years. It used to be at 40.

    3. Anonymous Hippo*

      You can ask for it early. I did that. I was at the company for 2 years, with 2 weeks vacation, and I just went and asked for a third week. They were implementing a policy to add days with seniority, so when they gave me the week plus the new seniority days I jumped from 2 weeks to 4. Can’t hurt to ask.

  88. Now In the Job*

    I can’t seem to get myself to *shut up* at work. Like when a personal topic comes up, I’ve gone on for a hot minute before I realize the other person needs to leave/wants to walk away/has work to do. And even then sometimes I can’t figure out how to gracefully close the topic. I am struggling with the balance between “a private life does not exist outside of work” (which makes me miserable) and “nobody cares to hear about your ankle MRI, Marina.” Any advice?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Do you find this happening in social situations? At the bar with strangers, walking with a buddy, talking with your SO or your family? Try to think about why it happens in some situations and not in others.

      1. Now In the Job*

        Yep. Now In the Job being completely unable to stfu is a constant in my life. I think my friends and spouse have gotten to a point where they either just listen because they’re blessings, or they know how to shut me up…but I have no idea how! And they at least love me anyway; which isn’t really a helping factor in the work environment.
        I have hella FOMO too, so I always stay at events WAY later than I ever want to. Part of my brain goes, “BUT WHAT IF FUN HAPPENS AND I’M NOT THERE??” But I don’t think that’s the case when I make someone captive to a conversation.

        1. Pocket Mouse*

          Ask your friends and spouse what they do that works to get you to stop talking. Then ask what they tried and *didn’t* work. Then be on the lookout for people doing any of those things.

          Also, maybe set a rule for yourself in the moment, e.g. I’m going to ask this person something about themselves and NOT follow up with a story of my own unless they specifically ask.

          You can do it! Even a small improvement is meaningful, so if you’re successful part of the time, count it as a win (with more success still to achieve).

    2. Colette*

      Can you try to set limits for yourself? For example, “every two sentences I will stop to give the other person a chance to reply”.

    3. DivineMissL*

      I struggle with this, too. I started making a concerted effort to ask people questions about themselves, remember things people have told me so later I can ask about their dog’s surgery or how it went when their mom came to visit. Then when I go off on a tangent, they seem to be a little more forgiving because I have sometimes let them go on for a hot minute too :)

  89. no dogs on the moon*

    just feeling a bit discouraged and could use some encouragement! i’ve been job hunting since november (currently employed, just ready to move on, so my applications are pretty targeted) and finally got an interview i was super excited about (my first interview during this hunt even) with a very communicative hiring person. it seemed to go great! great enough that even though i didn’t get the job, i got a very kind phone rejection and was strongly encouraged to apply for a different opening they were about to post.

    i did, had another good call, did an assessment, and then… crickets. nothing for three weeks. i know hiring can take longer than expected and any number of things could be happening, but they wanted an august start and i haven’t heard anything even after a follow up email last week, so i’m feeling like i might have been ghosted.

    i didn’t think i was a shoe in for the second role at all and honestly not hearing anything about an application or after an interview usually doesn’t hit me this hard! but i was really excited about the position and the company so it’s been tough to feeling like i had a great rapport and getting a nice phone call to… getting nothing at all. between that and not really having any luck with my other apps it’s tough not to feel bummed out and discouraged. if i did something wrong on this one i just wish i knew what it was! :(

    1. Colette*

      Job hunting is so hard!

      I will say that it is July, and if you’re in the Northern Hemisphere, it’s likely that 1/3 of the office is on vacation, so I’d guess they’re just not ready to make a decision yet. But even if you’re not chosen, that doesn’t mean you did anything wrong. Sometimes it just means that you weren’t the top of a list of good candidates.

      Hang in there!

      1. no dogs on the moon*

        thank you! yeah i totally get it if i didn’t get the position, just sucks to go from a very pleasant communicative experience to possibly being ghosted!

  90. Should I stay or should I go?*

    I have been in my job for 2 years (mid-career analyst consultant, senior position). I really like my company, they take great care of us and the pay is very competitive. My team is the bomb, full of smart, kind people with no drama.
    My dilemma is that my main project (which I took leadership of shortly after I arrived) is a nightmare. I hate the client, they’re rude and demanding and sometimes get personal with me when they’re unhappy. No matter how hard I work or how many hours, it is never enough. The project itself is not analytics, which I was hired to do, but just production of tables for other people to do analytics on.
    I spend over 50% of my annual hours on this project, but it’s really 100% of my time for 6-8 weeks every quarter. That means I’ve only gotten to lead 3 other projects (which went extremely well, one has been accepted for a major industry conference). I am getting bitter that my peers are doing more interesting stuff than I am and that my skills are not being put to good use. This project will go on for another year at least and sometimes I want to quit when I think about spending another year like this.
    I’ve brought this up with my boss and she’s sent me a list of a few other things I’ll be working on in the coming months but she’s overall not that great of a manager, pretty hands off and only helps out when there’s a real emergency. Add to this that I would like to move up in my career and I’m not really seeing a ladder.
    All the pros: great environment, great team, the work I do outside of my main client is really challenging and interesting and I love it. I also get to work 4 days a week.
    So should I be looking around? Or am I in the 2-year “maybe the grass is greener” place? For additional context, I do seem to have a pattern of staying a couple years, finding I’ve learned all I can, and moving on.

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I have been in a pretty close situation before. At OldJob, I had one arrogant prick of a client who owned his own energy project development company, and his employee turnover was like 75%. He would personally attack us and called us liars. Then I had a project with a nice client, then another nice client but my internal JV partner was an ass. When I was finally pushed over the edge to leave, a contributing factor was leading two projects I didn’t want to lead and not getting promoted because I was always needed to lead the difficult life-sucking projects with no reward at the end. The clients were fine, but one was not very knowledgeable about the project scope. He was a construction estimator with a limited background, and our work was to develop a project with a new process technology. We would have arguments about our estimate for the pond cost which is a fraction of this billion dollar job, but that was what he understood. When you have to do that 4 nights a week after hours, it gets old.

      But the lesson learned is that at NewJob, I have a current client who isn’t that bad, but has moments where he reminds me of the first guy and I didn’t even take a job to lead projects. My old job would have been 100x better than this, so given all the stuff you love, I’d stay put unless you have a very compelling reason, like a trusted acquaintance recruits you for your dream job.

      1. Should I stay or should I go?*

        Thanks, I think you are probably right. There’s no guarantee another job wouldn’t be riddled with lousy clients or worse.

  91. Tabby Baltimore*

    Anyone got any opinions, pro or con, to the online tool Jobscan? Oversimplified, you upload your current resume, then upload a job description, and the tool compares your resume to the description, and gives you tips for “optimizing” your resume by giving you on-the-fly editing capability to better match-up your resume language to the job description (among other things). Thanks, all.

    1. RagingADHD*

      I tried it a few years ago and got a couple good ideas. Nothing earth-shatterering, but worth a second look. As long as it’s still free.

    2. Two Chairs, One to Go*

      It’s really helpful for finding gaps in keywords between the resume and job description. You can do that in other ways, but I introduce it to people who aren’t familiar with that process as a jumping-off point.

  92. RB*

    Yep! Me too. Keep hearing about the great resignation and I’m ready to move on after 10 years with my company. Made it to a final interview, then… crickets. Talked to another in-house recruiter who LOVED my background and saw me in a few positions at their org…. crickets.

  93. DivineMissL*

    Thanks WellRed. They’re offering me the job because they like to promote from within, and I’m the one person here they trust to do it well. So it’s a compliment. If I say no, they will probably hire an outside HR firm. My current job is not at risk; I’ve been doing it very well for 15 years. So I can stay as the EA, but there’s no way I’ll get my salary increased this much before I retire (in our pension system, it’s based on your highest 3 years of salary – so if I do HR for 3 years, my pension will be significantly higher). I’m 59 now, retirement eligibility age is 60. I could do this for 3 years, collect my pension, and then go work somewhere else full-time.

  94. Charlotte Lucas*

    We once got a set of “small tumblers.” I had new employees at the time & they asked, “Why is the company handing out Scotch glasses? Are they trying to tell us something?” (Answer: Yes, but they are clueless.)

    They were nice glasses, & I still use mine.

  95. Sensitive Potato*

    I’m on maternity leave and my office has just decided to have our professional pictures updated. After I declined the initial sign up email, since Im not in the office right now, I received another saying I needed to get my picture taken in the next few days.

    I really don’t want my photo, that will be used for external marketing and internal resourses for the next few years, to be of me three weeks postpartum. I can’t even fit into any of my work clothes yet, and I’m very sensitive about my appearance right now.
    Is it unreasonable for me to push back on this? Or can I just pretend I haven’t seen the email, since I am not working for 2 more months?

    1. BlueBelle*

      Push back. You haven’t been cleared by your doctor to return to work duties, so you don’t need to do it right now.
      Congratulations on the baby!

      1. Person from the Resume*

        THIS!

        While on maternity leave, don’t work including getting photos taken for work.

        1. Pocket Mouse*

          Quick reminder, in case you need it: checking your work email is also considered work. Don’t do it!

    3. Colette*

      Was it a specific email to you and you alone? If so, I’d reply saying “Sorry, I won’t be able to do this in the next couple of days as I am on leave. I will be happy to do it once I’m back in the office.”

      If it was an email to a bunch of people, I’d just ignore it.

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Oh gosh, not unreasonable at all, for either reason.

      “I’m on leave for the next two months, so we’ll have to schedule photos for when I come back in October.”

    5. Just me*

      Totally not unreasonable to push back. It’s not clear if you’ve explicitly said the reason you can’t is because you’re out on maternity leave but, if not, do that as well. I can see this being somebody who doesn’t know why you’re out misinterpreting it as ‘I’m not in the office on that particular day’ so worth spelling out ‘I’m not in the office on that particular day – because I’m not working for another two months. I will catch up with you on getting my photos taken when I return.’ (I had similar things when I was out on mat leave – lots of ‘Sorry, can’t as I’ll be on leave then’, ‘Well, it’s super important – can you do the week after?’, ‘By leave, I mean mat leave’, ‘Ah, never mind. Drop me a line when you’re back’)

      Also, congratulations on your baby!

  96. Temporary Temp*

    I’ve worked in “administrative assistant” or “receptionist” type jobs at hospitals and outpatient clinics. Think someone whose duties include things like checking patients into their appointments, updating their information in the EMR system, scheduling appointments, replying to general inquiries via email, insurance paperwork, filing, so on.

    My problem is when job hunting I notice that jobs with these type of duties can have very different titles. Lately I’ve seen administrative assistant, administrative support, receptionist, admin support associate, secretary, patient services associate, clerk and more as titles for these types of jobs. I worry when job searching that I’m not finding all the listings of jobs I might be qualified for/interested in because of all these different titles. Is there a guide anywhere for all the titles this kind of job might appear under? Or does anyone know of strategies when job searching that will help me find these jobs despite the different titles?

    1. RosyGlasses*

      You might check out onetonline.org – this is based on Bureau of Labor and Statistics data to help figure out compensation benchmarking and job roles. You can look up a few of these roles that you’ve mentioned, and when you get to a profile for a job, you’ll see what types of duties are typically assigned, and other job titles that are often used. That may help you land on what you need to search for. I would tend to stick with searching for office assistant, administrative assistant – and then add in healthcare as needed (like you’ve done above). The hard thing about job titles is that some people like to get really creative and make stuff up which makes it difficult to know whether your role is a match.

  97. Kari*

    I feel like this has been posted before but I can’t find it in other threads. Anyone put in their notice and not feel any excitement? I thought I would feel so ecstatic but now I just feel sad. My bosses were so supportive in me handing my resignation, I just feel like I’m going to dearly miss them and I’m making some kind of mistake. On the other hand, I thought long and hard about this new role and know it’s something I’ve always wanted to do. I have a 3 week notice period and I just feel sad and tired. I’m wondering if it’s because I have a lot of work to do until then or if this is a bad sign. Anyone else feel this way?

    1. Wisteria*

      It’s not a sign of anything to have mixed feelings about a change. You can be excited about the new role while simultaneously feeling sad about leaving the old role, especially if you liked the old role. Discomfort doesn’t always mean you are doing the wrong thing. Growth and challenge can be uncomfortable. Let yourself be sad for the things that you miss while cultivating a growth mindset for the new job. Reminding yourself of all the reasons you want the new role will make space for the excited feelings to fill.

    3. I'll be happy about it eventually!*

      Yes! In my case I’m retiring, not moving on to a new job, but I feel exactly the same as you do. I should be ecstatic and I’m not, I’m sad, I’m exhausted, I will really miss my coworkers, I’m scared (what have I done??)….but I’m thinking this is maybe somewhat normal. It’s a huge transition and change is hard. Same with leaving for a new job. FWIW I’ve also felt that way when leaving a job to go back to school, leaving an apartment for a new one (where I spent six months missing my old one, only to finally fall in love with the new one), etc. Hang in there!

  98. anon for this*

    I’m currently in my first corporate job after getting my degree, and I’ve been here for a couple of years now. My manager is leaving for another company in about a month (which is a bummer, because we worked together really well!). From reading past posts on here, it sounds like it’s common to keep in touch with past managers — for instance, that it’s polite to give them a heads-up that they might be getting a reference call.

    I’m not ready to start thinking about moving on just yet, for various reasons, but to be honest, the one silver lining about the fact that she’s leaving is that now I’ll have someone outside my current company that I can use as a reference when I do get to that point. The one thing is that I don’t have her contact info. Would it be weird to ask her for an email address to keep in touch, at some point before she leaves? Or is this something that people tend to use LinkedIn PMs for?

    (I am definitely overthinking this)

    1. AnonymousHOU*

      You should definitely ask! Depending on how well you worked together and what level of relationship you want to keep, having her email address could simply be for future references, or as a way to connect outside of that. My current boss and coworker both keep up with their former teams, and have lunch with them a few times a year.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      It’s not weird at all. It’s completely normal.

      “Hey Exboss, I’d love to stay in touch with you. Can I email you or …?” And she’ll give you an address, or point you to linkedin, or whatever.

    3. Toucan Flies*

      Will her phone number change? I would just use that or LinkedIn if her number ended up changing. Definitely don’t think it’s weird to ask for a personal email address, though :) I’d do it!

  99. RB*

    I am finally ready to change companies after being with my current organization for about 10 ten years. The job search sure has changed over these past 10 years!

    So I made it to the final round of a company/position I would love. I like the people I have interviewed with, culture seems great. They are pretty busy (it’s a tech company) and every timeline they have given me about the hiring process was way overpromised. Example, inhouse recruiter says I’m going to get back to you by the end of day with next steps. My thought bubble, wow that seems fast but awesome. Then I’m contacted 4 days later (and after I follow up) with next steps.

    Had my final interview. Was told I would hear back in 3 days. 7 days go by, I follow up. Hiring manager emails me back, sorry it’s taking so long, taking longer on our end then I thought it would. You will hear something back by beginning of next week by the latest. Then nothing during that timeframe. I think, well, I guess I’m out of the process but I’ll try one more time. I email HM and he is OOO. Which I’m guessing he knew when he told me when I would hear back.

    They have told me at every stage they need someone to start asap but the process has taken longer at every stage.

    So I really don’t think I’m getting an offer because it’s been over two weeks since my final interview and the only communication has been in response to my inquiry. But on the off chance I get an offer, are these red flags? That the company either just isn’t into me and/or they don’t do what they say they will.

    Also, I’ve had the recruiter and another person from the company send me a connection request on LinkedIn. So I’m all kinds of confused. But like I said, the hiring process seems different than it was 10 years ago.

      1. RB*

        Thank you for this. It’s been harder than I thought it would be waiting. My head and heart say too different things I guess.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      This is very, very normal. Hiring timelines are almost always overpromised. It could be that a key decision-maker is out on vacation, or that other, higher-priority projects came up that put hiring on the backburner this week, or that they have made an offer to someone else and are waiting to see if that person accepts or rejects. It could be a million things, but it’s very normal.

      1. ferrina*

        +1
        I used to work at a small tech company, and this was a really normal timeline (complete with the “we need someone yesterday!”). Unless you are seeing other red flags, I wouldn’t worry about it

        1. RB*

          Thank you. I had started to mentally move on from the job. I really, really want this job. But maybe there is still a chance I will here back from the HM once he comes back from vacation next week.

          1. PollyQ*

            Mentally moving on is probably the best attitude anyway. If they do get back to you, it’ll be a pleasant surprise.

  100. AnonymousHOU*

    When does salary become the most important driver towards a job change?

    I have a good university job that I usually enjoy, an awesome immediate team, good benefits, and regular opportunities to take on exciting projects and learn new things. My salary is right at the nationwide average for the position, and except for 2020, I get merit increases of about 3.5% per year. The university has been great during the pandemic, and while most of us don’t agree with the president’s mandate to return four days a week, it’s not a deal breaker for me, especially since I have a private office.

    Recently, though, I’ve gotten a bit spooked about salary and finances. I’m not drowning, but live paycheck to paycheck and regularly feel consumed by my mortgage/car loan/student loans/home repair debt. Financially, I am “okay”, but the allure of remote job postings in my field that pay $20,000+ is definitely there. That extra salary would be life changing and would allow me to rapidly pay off most of that debt, and have enough savings to take a modest out-of-town vacation each year.

    I’m trying to remind myself that the value of the benefits of my current job exceeds that $20,000 pay increase, especially when it comes to job satisfaction. I’d rather be budget-conscious than risk hating the work and people every day. That’s a reasonable thing to do, right?

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      A reasonable stance to take and a reasonable one to not take.
      I think it depends on your personal budget, goals, and priorities. Some people would be willing to trade a mediocre boss or longer hours for more stable finances. I also think it’s important to remember that you could end up with a job that includes all those valuable benefits, team rapport, and professional development that also includes more money.

      1. AnonymousHOU*

        Ah yes, the reasonable/unreasonable void I exist in! For years, I have told various therapists that my ultimate goal in life is to be “happy”, which I know is vague and challenging to achieve.

        I always get stuck in the “what if” – what if I had a better paying job, what if I did this instead of that, etc.

    2. Dasein9*

      Being happy at work is a huge factor to consider! Being paid enough is certainly part of that-a big part!-but is not the only consideration.

      YMMV, but universities tend to have really good benefits, especially pensions. It might be a good idea to look at that and factor it into your calculations.

      It might also be good to speak to a financial advisor about where you want to be and what else you can be doing. You can usually speak with someone at the pension office or the brokerage that handles your institution’s 401K. If they can’t help you directly, they may be able to recommend someone. HR might be able to do the same.

      1. AnonymousHOU*

        This is helpful, thank you! I work at a private university so there is no pension, but the retirement contributions to a 401(a) are impressively high. Fidelity is our manager, and I know they offer free consult sessions. Just need to finally schedule one of those and realize that the financial advisor (hopefully) won’t shame me.

        1. Dasein9*

          A good financial advisor will not shame you at all. It is *good* that you’re looking into things now.

    3. BlueBelle*

      It depends, ha! I have made the decision a time or two in my life to take a higher paying job that I didn’t like as much for a 2 yr stretch to reach a goal. My recommendation would be to think about living within your same income + a few extra hundred dollars a month to give you some breathing room, and then plan out exactly how to use the rest. What often happens is people take a higher paying job but then just increase their living. If you don’t make a solid plan and even set up direct payments into savings and onto the debt your lifestyle will just increase and then it will lead to you staying in a job or field you don’t enjoy as much.
      Good luck!

    4. Colette*

      Some things to consider:
      – money can, in fact, make you happier if you don’t have enough money for basic necessities. I assume you can afford food but don’t have a ton of money from extras, but if you aren’t making enough to buy food every day of the month, the calculus changes.
      – The other job pays more now; does it pay more over the long term? (I.e. would you be trading a defined benefit pension for whatever you can save for retirement? Would your health insurance be the same?)

      There’s nothing wrong with exploring other jobs to see if you can find something that you also like that pays more. But if it’s the choice between a job you like vs. a job you hate that pays more, I’d stick to the job you like.

      1. AnonymousHOU*

        Thanks for your reply! I am very lucky, as a single person, to have enough to affordable food and the occasional splurge. Current job has better retirement and health insurance benefits, and working at a university there are other unique benefits, like very cheap access to a nice recreation center and university library.

        I am trying to reframe my thinking towards knowing what options exist, especially since some of my debt (car loan and home repair debt) will disappear in 3-5 years at their current payment plans.

        1. Colette*

          If you like everything about your job but want to make more money, you could consider other money-making options (e.g. a very part-time job such as tutoring, teaching a once-a-week class, working short-term events). Or you could just accept that you’re trading off more money now for a job you like.

    5. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I left the academic world in 2012 for biotech and could not be happier. I’m earning almost double the salary (and I was well paid for academia). The 401k match is smaller in terms of % of my salary, but I make so much more many that the match I get is more than I would have received in academia. The benefits are better too. I won’t lie – money was the biggest factor for me. Between salary and stock grants I was able to pay off my student loan and my husband’s as well, which was a huge relief for me. I was initially worried that the corporate world would be horrible and soul-sucking, with a terrible workplace culture. Turns out I like it better than academic libraries! I’m working a bit more (maybe 5-6 hours a week, longer during the occasional crunch time), but so much more gets accomplished and is rewarded that I’m happy to do a bit more. Obviously it depends on the particular workplace, but I had a unfavorable view of the corporate world that happily is not what I’ve experienced at all. Good luck!

  101. Dasein9*

    Raising a forkful of noodles to Trust Fund Lucy today as I eat my tasty, tasty ramen.
    Anyone else enjoying Ramen Island today?

    1. JustaTech*

      I thought about it, but it’s too warm so I cooked up some “very elderly leftovers” fried rice, and they were delicious.

      Trust Fund Lucy doesn’t know what she’s missing!

  102. Yellow*

    Someone above had a question about Advil/Tylenol availability in the breakroom, and some folks thought it was nice that a company would provide stuff like that. I do the supply ordering at my office, and already provide single serve packets of Advil (and will be adding Tylenol to the mix). But it got me thinking- are there any other little things like that, that I could stock in our breakroom/kitchen that people would appreciate?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      A complete first-aid kit.

      Bandages, pain relievers, one of those instant icepacks. You can pick up an entire kit at Office Depot or wherever for less than $50.

        1. OD response*

          Does it include Narcan? You should be able to get a few free doses from a local org, or if not, possibly mailed to your workplace (search for “NEXT naloxone”).

    3. Cheesecake2.0*

      Mini deodorants!
      I have, on rare occasions, forgot to put it on in the morning and do not keep any in my car/purse because I live somewhere warm where it just melts. I’ve tried putting them in my office but we don’t have much personal concealed space (drawers/cabinets), just desk/table tops.

    4. WellRed*

      I’m assuming you already stock plasticware and salt and pepper? Maybe basic condiments? Maybe a roll if tinfoil.

    7. Stuffs*

      Floss! A lifesaver when you realize you have more lunch in your teeth than you’re prepared for.

    8. Pocket Mouse*

      Maybe lens cleaners? My glasses are always smudged and it’s often distracting to me (and probably makes me look less put-together than I’d like). If folks are on video calls at work it could help there too.

    9. Ann Perkins*

      Assuming you already supply coffee, including tea and hot cocoa options is nice.

    10. JustaTech*

      Sunscreen (individual little pouches). My husband’s company has them up in the summer because people like to have lunch outside, and then come back a bunch of crispy critters.

      Also, unscented hand lotion. If you’ve got a company that does your bathroom soap they might offer lotion as well.

    12. beach read*

      I worked for a company that had a large wall attached cabinet that housed the basics +: a first aid kit on steroids. I appreciated the kit offered mini 1-use eye drops and daytime cold medicine in convenient 2 packs. There were a lot of people in that office and everyone worked long hours so it was great to have those tiny amenities.

    13. Diatryma*

      What I find myself looking for at work is safety pins. Multiple times, I’ve gone through drawers and asked around for them, and they just aren’t something my coworkers have on hand.

  103. Cheesecake2.0*

    Anyone else feeling super down or angry about going back to the office? We’ve known it was an early August date for months now but we were told that it would be a slow transition, that hybrid opportunities would be available, that people with childcare needs could work from home until school started/they found daycare.
    However yesterday we just found out that it’s 100% back in office on the date, no slow transitions. HR won’t have any hybrid work arrangements ready by then, and even after, it will be based entirely on your job classification and will have nothing to do with your preferences/your manager’s recommendations. We also found out that people with children will be given only one (1!) extra week to figure out their arrangements otherwise they need to use PTO to care for their kids. A coworker cried in a meeting yesterday because she’s having trouble finding a daycare that will take her infant.
    Before COVID, exempt workers had a fair amount of “unofficial” flexibility and now it seems like they are taking all that away as well, in addition to going back on what they said previously.

    And get this – first day back is an all-employee, mandatory lunch party for 3 hours to celebrate “return to normal” – while our county is experiencing a Delta-variant surge and is pondering renewing the mask mandate because the ICUs are getting full again.

    1. Dasein9*

      Oh, that stinks! Sounds like someone got sick of hearing it and just decided to lower the boom. Which will be followed swiftly by lowered morale.

    2. AWM*

      Honestly, that would be it for me and I would be looking for a new job. In fact, that is what I am doing. I work in non-profit where we haven’t gotten raises in forever. And there is talk about how the company can use remote work when it benefits them (snow days). I drank the kook-aid forever until I realized they really didn’t care. We had done this work for the last year+ remote and there is now suddenly no room for discussions about how we can do it now? Nope, I’m done.

      1. Cheesecake2.0*

        I work at a large public university and the idea seems to be that because students will be expecting “a normal college experience” again this fall, we all have to go back to the way things were, even if our job transitioned seamlessly to remote work and we do not interact with students in any way. I would like to stay in higher ed and maybe it is time to start looking – although it seems like most universities are very against hybrid or remote work, no matter what the job duties are.

      2. ferrina*

        +1
        I would jump ship. Especially since childcare options haven’t yet recovered. My kids’ daycare is still on shorter hours, and working from home actually lets me work more!
        There’s plenty of companies out there that have realized that good candidates like wfh options. My company has moved from in-person (pre-Covid) to hybrid with encouraged office days (not required).

    3. JustaTech*

      Ugh, that sucks.

      I personally haven’t felt that because we’ve been at least partially on-site the whole time (we make a cancer treatment, so essential workers, but everyone who wasn’t lab was sent home and is only now starting to come back).

      Our CEO came up to our site back in January (before anyone was vaccinated) and we had a “lunch” where almost no one would take their masks off to eat, so it was *super* awkward and tense.

      Just last week we had another lunch and now that everyone’s vaccinated and had more time to adjust it was much more relaxed (and people actually ate). But our management has been pretty good about easing folks back and giving plenty of lead time on the on-site thing.

  104. Redd*

    In the context of this week’s post, I feel awful even asking this, but… is there any acceptable way to ask about a service provider’s upcoming plans when they seem to be pregnant?

    My toddler is in speech therapy and has an evaluation upcoming with the school district. There are two options for her treatment; transition her to a group setting in one month, or in four months, after the next quarter. If she could continue one-on-one with her current therapist, I think she’d make more progress.

    However… over the past few months, the therapist’s abdomen has grown while the rest of her body has not. I think bites likely that she will be having a baby in the next two months or so, which would mean switching settings twice. That wouldn’t be great for my kid’s progress.

    Can I ask whether she’s expecting to be away from work for an extended period at any time in the next four months? I guess I’m just concerned that she’ll want to know why I’m asking, but the information would really help me in making the best decision for my child.

    1. Alexis Rosay*

      I would suggest asking whether your child would be able to continue with the same speech therapist throughout the year, and what contingencies would be in place if the regular speech therapist weren’t available.

    2. Thursdaysgeek*

      Ask the therapist for input. Tell you’re trying to decide if your child should go to the group setting sooner or later, and that you really like the progress that the child is making with her. Ask if she has any plans that would keep you from just keeping the child with you for the longer option, since that is your preference.

      That gives her an opening, if she wants to take it.

    3. Policy Wonk.*

      Ask the therapist what her plans are for the next four months, noting that if she plans to take leave or to change jobs you don’t want to have to switch twice. You don’t have to say what made you ask.

    4. RagingADHD*

      I would tell her about the choice you have to make – one month or 4 months – and say that you think the best thing would be to continue one on one with her, personally, as long as possible. And that your main interest is consistency and minimizing transitions.

      Then ask what she thinks you should do.

  105. Ozzie*

    This week a had a follow up meeting with my new boss (director level), that I walked away from feeling pretty bad about. I divulged information about an in-the-past work relationship challenge I’ve had with my still-manager, in the context that some feedback I had given him may not be well-received by her if it was known to come from me. I thought this would be important for him to know, so it wasn’t something that he would walk into blindly (because I do really believe she would react to it poorly, as she has never accepted feedback from me in the 5 years she has managed me). At the end of this meeting, he told me that, as some objective feedback, I should be careful who I tell things to, because it is important how people perceive me. And that he understands – he also gets fired up about things.

    I can’t tell if I’m reading the situation poorly, but this… really felt like a more managerial way of basically telling me to smile more. It also made me absolutely distrust him as someone to confide any issues in – after he has told his new staff many time to bring problems or concerns to him.

    I accept that maybe I did make a mistake in bringing that up, but overall, I feel really icky after the meeting and can’t seem to let it go. I just feel like he was patronizing me – at best. Might I be overreacting to his comments?

    1. Ozzie*

      I will note that I’m female-presenting in a pretty liberal workplace, but he has only been with us 2 or 3 months, and I have had limited interactions with him – and none in person. I’m used to bumping up against contractors wanting to deal with men, but have never had an issue prior to this, as our previous director was also a woman. Having him tell me that he also “gets fired up” and that “perception is important” lands differently though, which is where my primary concern lies.

    2. WellRed*

      I don’t think know about overreacting but otherwise, I am reading his comments the same as you. I would seriously edit any conversations with him in the future.

      1. Ozzie*

        Yeah, he definitely will not be my go-to, that’s for sure. At least I found out early, at the very least!

      2. Jobbyjob*

        It may be that his advice was more along the lines of “it’s ok you told me, but we haven’t yet built the trust and deep enough impressions of each other that this wouldn’t be a risk”. He could be worried that without prior experience of you to counterbalance your concerns, it could leave someone with the impression that you are overly difficult or gossipy or negative. Even if that isn’t fair, that’s kind of the unfortunate thing with first impressions as they are very timing sensitive. I would spend time building a positive and capable impression to him and revisit the topic in a few months.

    3. Wisteria*

      I don’t see “smile more” in that advice at all. It is actually really good advice and not patronizing. It is easy to misjudge who you can reveal problems to, and a reminder of that is not out of line.

      My takeaway is that either you shared with him something you said to your still-manager that he thought you should not have shared with her, or he is telling you that everything you shared with him makes you seem a little fire-y (based on the fired up comment, which I assume is a direct quote) and that might not be a good impression to leave.

      If you really want to know where he is coming from, ask. Go back and say, “I was just thinking on your comment about being careful who I tell things to. I was hoping you would expand on that. It sounds like you thought I was indiscrete about something, and I want to be sure I understand where you are coming from.”

      1. Anonymous Hippo*

        That’s how I read it too. Which makes it weirder for me, because who are you supposed to talk to about work interpersonal issue than with your boss? I’d think that was the exact right thing to do. If he meant don’t go around complaining to everyone, that’s one thing, but if you can’t bring work issues to your boss, what is he for?

        1. Ozzie*

          That’s really where I’m sitting. I can’t go to my manager, obviously, and when I brought them to my boss when they first cropped up, she basically told me I was wrong, so they persisted, until I just had to deal, and never give feedback. Things are running poorly, so I thought, perhaps a new boss could help – but I still can’t give direct feedback, as it is not received well (or at all, really). So I’m just not entirely sure who I’m supposed to go to for help making our department run a bit better, if not my manager or my boss….

          1. Wisteria*

            “I can’t go to my manager, obviously”

            That’s not obvious to me. I really think you should ask for clarification before you conclude that you can’t talk to your manager about problems. He might have meant, “Be careful who ELSE you tell this to.” Or maybe it was a hint to change how you describe interpersonal conflicts rather than not to describe them at all.

            1. Ozzie*

              Oh, sorry – my manager is the one I have had the issues with in the past, and who does not accept feedback from me, in any way, shape, or form. (On a range of not acknowledging it, to snapping at me for speaking up, to comments like, “you’re always a step ahead of me!” said in a not-jovial manner at all) Things have -improved- over the years, but can still be very tense – especially as the entire department is stretched very thin. “There’s nothing we can do right now” is a very common phrase tossed around.

              My – and her – boss (the program director – 2 steps of management above me, with said manager between), is the one I spoke to directly. The only intermediary between him and me is my manager.

              The reason I no longer feel as though I can speak to him, is that he did not indicate any interest in resolving any issues. “There isn’t anything I can do right now” was said at least half a dozen times in the meeting on any number of topics. It’s difficult to capture the tone of a 45 minute meeting in a 2 paragraph comment, but that singular comment was not the sole indicator that I do not feel confident that he is worth confiding in, interpersonal issues or otherwise.

              1. Wisteria*

                Oh, sorry. Yes, obviously you cannot go to your manager.

                Just curious, did you want your boss to do anything? It sounded like you were just giving him a head’s up about an interaction that might color your dealings with your manager. I think it’s important to bring these things up to put your story up front, but you do have to judge whether he will care about your story. I had a grad school advisor once who I went to about a problem with another student. My advisor thanked me for telling him and said to be sure to keep bringing the these problems to him. He never said he would do anything, though, so like yourself, I was wondering what the point of bringing him stuff was. But at least I did counter whatever narrative the other student gave. So giving a head’s up with the caveat that you know he can’t do anything, but you want him to be in the loop might still be warranted.

                1. Ozzie*

                  It was part of a conversation of like, things I think can be improved. I noted that our department was not running efficiently at all, it often felt like we were operating kind of as free agents, but overall we’re really just barely scraping by every day. I acknowledged it was a longer term thing (as we are in the midst of our busiest season), but it would be worth examining, because the struggle is… a lot. I’m overwhelmed daily, and I know I am not the only one.

                  But this criticism is pretty directly targeting at my manager, since I do not think she manages us well at all – or at all in many cases. Hence the given context. I don’t know that him saying I said this would go over well, and I didn’t want him to find that out by slamming into a brick wall, as it were…

              2. ronda*

                It does sound like he is likely not going to be a help to you with the work issues you brought up if he said there isn’t anything I can do right now. (unless the emphasis is on the right now)

                but maybe he was not expecting to have half a dozen issues and thinks you are “complaining” too much.

                I think the idea of seeing if you can get him to clarify what he meant by that feedback, it might help you understand better. Does he mean that you should not have told him the things you did?

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I think it would be good advice in a different situation, like if OP was randomly complaining or making personal gossipy comments to the grand-boss. I would expect to have that shut down by a similar comment about being aware of your audience.

        But, trying to provide work-related feedback on your own manager to their boss and providing the context that you have tried discussing this with the manager who reacted poorly… unless OP was ranting or getting (objectively) heated or something that legitimately warranted the “fired up” comparison, it does seem like he was saying “calm down dear, nobody likes a complainer.”

        1. Ozzie*

          I recognize I am bias in this, but I thought I was keeping my cool, at the very least. I chose my words carefully and kept it very specifically work-focused and calm in tone. I’ve made the fiery mistake before, so I try to be very conscious of it now. The only thing I can think of is that my voice quivers when I do this (being a frustrated crier is easily my most annoying trait, and work from home has been fantastic for this, as things have gotten more stressful at work), but I would be INCREDIBLY offended and annoyed if that control was what would trigger that comment, especially on a call. (and I kept my emotions in check anyway)

          I agree that the advice in general is good advice though, and I do try to keep it in mind generally anyway. That’s why I can’t tell if I’m the one overreacting.

  106. Kesnit*

    I have T2 diabetes and am in a FB group for T2 diabetics. Someone asked the group the other day if they tell their employer about their diabetes. To my surprise, the answers were about split, with some saying they do tell to ensure someone else knows if the diabetic gets sick at work, and others saying they do not tell because they are afraid it would cause problems with their employer. (Full disclosure: I did tell, but knew it would be fine because my boss and another coworker also have T2D.)

    What are people’s thoughts here? Reveal or not? (This could go for any medical condition, not necessarily diabetes.)

    1. WellRed*

      I have type 1. I don’t disclose it but it becomes known fairly quickly. It’s never been an issue.

    2. Anon for this today*

      It’s actually never occurred to me to mention it my manager or coworkers. I don’t use insulin or otherwise have any ups or downs in my blood sugar that would cause an immediate medical issue at work. I’ve very lucky though; I have had coworkers who did let everyone know about their condition so that we could help them if needed.

      1. Anon for this today*

        Sorry, should have indicated that I’m Type 2 and was diagnosed in 2008.

    3. RagingADHD*

      It would entirely depend on what type of treatment was involved, and the chances of a situation in which coworkers could actually do something to help besides call 911.

      For example, T2 controlled with oral meds and diet? Probably not. Brittle, insulin dependent with a history of sudden severe reactions? Probably yes.

    4. Humble Schoolmarm*

      Interesting! Type 1 and I’ve always disclosed to my students and a close colleague so I have a person who knows what to do in case of low blood sugar emergency (which hasn’t ever happened, but I figure it’s better to have a plan than rely on seventh graders in a medical emergency). My typical script is “I have diabetes, so you may notice me drinking juice or eating candy fairly often. Also, if you ever notice that I’m making less sense than usual, please go get Ms X. She knows what to do.” I don’t proactively disclose to other people, but I’m pretty open about it, so word gets around. It’s never been an issue, although as part of the school diabetic crew (2 T1s and the parent of a T1) I have had to loan out my monitor to students or provide other support sometimes.

      1. Humble Schoolmarm*

        Should add that since Covid, I have mentioned it to my boss to explain why I’m going to keep working from home even if the school building is open to staff.

      2. Blackcat*

        I worked with someone who declared, half joking: “I have type 1 diabetes. My candy stash is MINE! All mine!” Then it got followed up with “But really, though, if you steal all my candy and I need some and don’t have it, I might die. So please don’t steal my candy.”

        Come to think of it, I know of more people who’ve disclosed T1D to me than T2D. T2D is far more common, so I suspect T1D folks are more likely to disclosed.

        1. Llama Wrangler*

          I’m not surprised that more people disclose T1 because I think T2 is somewhat stigmatized as being caused by personal behaviors and tied to fatphobia.

          1. allathian*

            Yes, this. It’s also a very underdiagnosed condition, so lots of people who have it don’t know about it.

    5. Nightengale*

      I have Type 1 diabetes and use an inulin pump that is usually visible. I do generally tell co-workers, just in case there I would have a serious reaction some day. I tell them where I keep glucose and crackers in my office. One time in 15 years I asked a co-worker to bring me some juice. But I work in health care, and while there are a lot of issues of health related stigma in health care workers, I can usually count on people in the field to be reasonably sensible about Type 1 diabetes.

      I also have some conditions I don’t disclose. My thyroid condition isn’t relevant. People know I use a cane and have trouble with handwriting but not my specific neurological diagnosis, because there is nothing that would come up in the workplace where diagnosis-specific information could be needed. They also don’t know I’m autistic. Even though I’m a doctor who specializes in the care of autistic kids.

  107. Abigail Chase*

    Hi folks, happy friday! I’m fresh out of college working for a political PR /comms firm. Most of my work is traditional communications and earned media but I’m also interested in learning more of the digital side. Any advice on where/ how to learn more about HTML or CSS (only time I ever played around with HTML was during my Tumblr days LOL) or anything else in the realm of digital comms? thanks!

    1. Mental Lentil*

      freecodecamp dot org has some pretty good introductory material. They are non profit (and survive off donations).

      On the other side of the coin is codecademy dot com, which sells memberships.

      I have used both and recommend them.

  108. Alexis Rosay*

    Not my success story, but a colleague’s…

    I work in a very small nonprofit. Two of the nine core staff (including myself) are leaving in the next six weeks. My colleague Jane, the next most senior employee after me, got a job *interview* (not an offer!) elsewhere and used it to negotiate a 7% raise and a title bump for herself. I was really impressed, it was gutsy! She is has been almost criminally underpaid and I just love the way she knew how important she would be with so many people leaving and really leveraged that. I know this wouldn’t work in a lot of orgs, but it’s all a matter of knowing your workplace.

  109. RosyGlasses*

    I’m looking to transition from private sector HR to public service with a government agency. I’ve applied to a few jobs and am doing my due diligence and research to find folks to network with and understand the different expectations in the fields I’ve evaluated, but I’m curious as to other reader’s suggestions that have also transitioned from private to public sector work and how to find the best avenues to network with federal employees.

    1. CheeryO*

      I’m in state-level government, so YMMV, but I would focus on making sure you understand the application process and are putting in thorough applications that explicitly tick every box. Networking can only get you so far if you aren’t ranked toward the top of the pile based on your application (again, in my experience – hopefully some feds will chime in too).

      Expect interviews to be formulaic and rigid, but that doesn’t mean you can’t show some personality. We’re people too, and we just want to hire people who are competent, easy to work with, and who will stick around.

      1. RosyGlasses*

        Awesome – yes for one application I had about 8 or 9 pages worth between MTQ narratives, cover letter, and 5 page resume. I think the only thing I did not do was put the “day” of start and ending jobs, and did make it past screening for one of the roles so that seems to have worked. I googled the heck out of federal resumes and also read through their provided samples – it’s definitely in depth!

        I’m planning on attending one of USAjobs webinars where they talk through the interview process so I’ll know a bit more of what to expect – but that’s helpful. Appreciate you taking the time to weigh in!

  110. Boss has no filter*

    One of the co-workers had a prolonged indirect exposure to COVID over the weekend (spent the weekend with several people who had just spent the week with someone who tested positive), and is therefore out this week. Boss mentioned to me that they always knew that co-worker was the weakest link in the office because of their large family and number of kids they were around frequently. Thankfully this was a phone discussion and boss didn’t see me cringe.
    I assumed this was just something said in confidence to me, but when I checked on co-worker, turns out boss said something similar to them. All I could do was apologize.

      1. Boss has no filter*

        No, I don’t, but as the most tenure employee, I feel it’s a bad representation of the company (even if the boss is the company).

  111. RR*

    I am desperate to get out of my job, particularly now with COVID possibly becoming even more of a threat. But I’m not getting any traction with my applications. I keep hearing that everybody is hiring, but they apparently aren’t interested in me. Where are people looking these days if they don’t have networks (I don’t)? I am also hearing I should contact people who are on linkedin if they are associated with the companies I am applying for, but I feel..uncomfortable about doing this, to say the least. I know discomfort won’t kill me, but I can’t even think of a good approach. Plus, I’ve read comments here that indicate that I absolutely shouldn’t do this. So I’m pretty much at a loss. I’m not in possession of any skills that are in high demand, but I show up, I do my work, and I think I’m reasonably competent and easy to work with. I guess this is part vent, part serious question, but am I just doomed to work at lousy jobs at terrible companies forever? Or is there another way?

    1. ferrina*

      It sounds like you aren’t getting any response to your application. If you’re not even getting screening interviews, this is what you can do:

      First, take a look at your resume and cover letter. “Fine” isn’t good enough; you need to stand out by highlighting accomplishments and being easy to read (it’s amazing how many applicants don’t do this). Your resume shouldn’t be a list of job responsibilities; it should be a list of accomplishments.
      Responsibility: Knit custom order kitten mittens
      Accomplishment: Knitted 41 pairs of kitten mittens in one month, which was 31% above projections
      Use your cover letter to share your soft skills through short anecdotes- “When a client kept changing the specifications for their kitten mittens, I brought them and their kitten in to the shop for a measurement. Together we discovered that the kitten liked many colors of yarn, so I suggested that we make striped mittens. The client loved the idea, and the kitten adored its new mittens”

      Second, be smart about the jobs you apply to. In my experience, it’s better to apply to fewer jobs but be more thoughtful than to play a numbers game.

      Third, tailor your materials. This doesn’t have to be time intensive- I have a Resume Template that is four pages of bullet points. When I apply to a position, I use the bullets that are most relevant to that position. Same with the cover letter- I have about six pre-written paragraphs that each focus on a different skill, then I pick 2-3 of these paragraphs and tailor them slightly for the position.

      Finally, use the network that you already have. Do you have a former coworker or boss that you can reach out to? Even in you don’t have their contact info, find them on LinkedIn. Let them know that you are looking for a position in XYZ, here’s your resume for reference. That doesn’t always get you anything, but it doesn’t hurt, and usually folks are thrilled to help in any way they can (if they can).

      Hopefully this will increase the number of screening interviews you get. Good luck!

  112. I've got a secret*

    Hello, I have a work situation that I most likely will be encountering soon and I’m not sure how I should handle it.

    I have a coworker, and personal friend, in the same role and level I am currently in. For as long as I can recall, friend has had a second job that she would work outside of the hours of this job. However, since we’ve been working from home, she’s been picking up an extra shift or two each week during the hours of her regular job. Her productivity has remained high, although decreased somewhat when she’s at the other job.

    It hasn’t really been a concern of mine but I have recently accepted a temporary assignment to replace a supervisor. I will not be directly supervising my friend but will be on the same level as her supervisor. Do I have an obligation to disclose to her supervisor that I know she’s moonlighting during work hours? Or do I not say anything? What if she mentions that friend’s number seem to be down? Do I speak up then?

    1. Colette*

      I’d do the following.

      Tell your friend “you really shouldn’t be working your second job while you’re supposed to be working the first – you can get fired for that. I recommend you stop, because if someone asks me, I won’t lie for you.”

      Assuming she stops telling you about it, I wouldn’t mention it. But if she keeps telling you she’s working a second job, I think you should bring it up if you’re a supervisor.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        I’d change “won’t lie for you” to “can’t lie for you” lest she tries to talk you into it.

        1. RagingADHD*

          Funny, I’d default to the other way around. I’d think “can’t ” would invite more argument, because technically you could.

  113. Anon for this*

    A retirement announcement this week, effective as of today, is kind of sudden, right? I know this employee has had both performance issues and health issues in the past, and honestly, I want to gossip about it! I am relieved, because I had to follow up with them on missed deadlines. All. The. Time. But they are a nice person and I hope they are well, too.

    For an actual question, how far in advance do people typically announce retirement? In my current company, it’s usually 2 – 3 months in advance. I do have a colleague who has announced their retirement three times now over the last 5 years, but they just can’t seem to actually retire.

    1. Colette*

      That’s pretty sudden. I’d guess either he was let go for the performance issues or his health issues took a turn for the worse.

      I’d say 2-3 months is pretty normal.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      My old company had a former EVP retire with no notice. I think the president knew but otherwise it was completely hush-hush, and even his long-time admin didn’t know. He had been there since the early 80s when the company had like 5 people, but was weird about stuff like that. Never wanted recognition or to participate in fun stuff.

      Otherwise, I have not seen very many people actually retire voluntarily. How sad is that? I’ve seen people get pushed out, leave for other jobs in their final years, and some actually die before they could get to retirement. A month or two seems normal, though. My mom gave more notice (like 9 months), and it was annoying for her. They kept bugging her about leaving before her date and checking in on her plans.

    3. Ozzie*

      A retirement announcement without months of lead up seems unusual to me – it’s not something that really sneaks up on you. Unless you are retiring due to extenuating circumstances, like health reasons contributing.

      I would advise against gossiping around it though – retirement is generally a happy thing for the person retiring! But especially if there may be health things involved, or given the sudden nature, I would think it’s best to just keep it quiet.

      1. Anon for this*

        Oh, absolutely! That’s why I’m gossiping about it anonymously here. I’m grateful to be WFH right now, so I don’t have to keep a poker face in front of all the inevitable speculation.

      2. JustaTech*

        I’ve had coworkers retire with a few months notice (the head of R&D) or a few weeks notice (head of a smaller department, manager in a medium sized department), but that was the *public* notice of their retirement. I don’t know how much notice they gave to their managers/ senior leadership.

        We also had a CEO retire suddenly after a serious medical incident (he got better but I think he did some serious soul searching in the hospital and decided he wanted out), and at least one senior person “retire” in lieu of an ugly public firing.

    4. Girasol*

      I heard the same advice and announced three months in advance. That was way too long. Work vanished off my plate within days and – ugh! – the Alzheimer’s and rocking chair jokes! People who treated me like a normal coworker until I said the word “retire” suddenly acted like I’d aged 30 years and gone senile overnight, even the ones who were my own age. If I had it to do over I’d go with one to two weeks, the same as any other exiting employee takes to update documentation and communicate the status of work in progress, and that would still probably be awkwardly long. I saw a coworker retire on zero notice and thought that was wrong, but after my experience, I’m not so sure anymore.

    5. PollyQ*

      I worked with someone who gave (apparently) no notice, and the story was that she didn’t want any fuss made for her. She took Christmas vacation off, and never came back. I say “apparently”, because I don’t know how much notice she gave her managers. They may have had more warning than the rest of us.

    6. allathian*

      That’s odd. Unless management decided to fire this person and they responded by retiring effective immediately instead.

      I know that in my governmental organization, where people often stay for long periods, some their entire careers from graduation to retirement, although that’s far less common now and I doubt recent graduates expect it, lots of notice is the norm. This is because my employer doesn’t pay out unused PTO except in very unusual circumstances, and some people have up to 6 months saved up before they retire. So they stop working but are still officially employed by us and drawing their normal salary.

  114. DrunkAtAWedding*

    I read an article recently that I found a bit confusing, so I wanted to talk about it here to figure out what I’m missing.

    Basically, it was about a US high school student who failed to make the cheerleading squad. She made an angry (paraphrased “F Cheer, F everything”) post on social media about it. When the cheerleading squad (or the school?) found out about it, she was banned from the squad for a year. Since she wasn’t actually on the squad, I guess that means banned from applying? Anyway, the issue was taken to court and holding the post against her was deemed to be a violation of her right to free speech.

    The thing is…I’m pretty sure that if you didn’t get a job and you made a post swearing about it afterwards, that company wouldn’t look very kindly on future applications (if they found about it). So…am I wrong about that? Is that not something that could be held against job applicants? Or is there something different about it because she’s a student? If the role of schools is to prepare students for real life, then giving her a pass on this seems unrealistic? What am I missing here? I’m not American, so I’m not fully up on the first amendment. One judge compared this to student’s protesting the Vietnam war by wearing black armbands, but I don’t really think this is the same thing. She wasn’t protesting a war or a human rights violation or anything, she complained about not getting a spot on the cheerleading squad, and the punishment was the squad not looking kindly on future applications because of that reaction.

    I’m not going to defend the squad or argue against the decision or anything. It’s just my read of the situation is so off from what I’m seeing other people – judges, journalists etc – saying, that I’m curious about exactly where I’m erring.

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I admit I am confused, too. My understanding is that, while you have the right to your free speech, you are not exempt from the consequences of what you say.

    2. No Tribble At All*

      She was on the junior varsity team (the lower-level) and tried out for the varsity (advanced) team. The free speech issue, from what I understand, is that she said those things on her own personal snapchat account outside of school. The school found out about it and removed her from the JV team, punishing her for free speech outside of school jurisdiction. The reason why it went to the Supreme Court was it’s a *public* school — the local government runs it, so the government was punishing her for speech, which they’re not allowed to do.

      You’re right that this sort of thing wouldn’t fly at a private company, but the first amendment only applies to the government. So a private school would be well within their rights to punish her however they want for breaking whatever rules they want. Because most companies in the US can fire people for any reason, there isn’t really an equivalent non-school scenario.

      1. DrunkAtAWedding*

        Ah, I think that’s the key point that I was missing. I’m not used to thinking of schools as being arms of the government, though I can see how that would be the case here.

    3. Summer Smile*

      Speaking as a teacher this ruling concerns me.

      The issue is that the student received a school punishment for something she had done outside of school hours, off campus, not at a school function, and she wasn’t using a school issued device or platform (such as Google classroom).

      As I understand it, the USSC has ruled that the school cannot punish her or sanction for her behavior under these circumstances.

      Personally, I find this disturbing. Schools are already very limited on how they can curtail the often very disturbing bullying behavior that goes on online. With this ruling, the USSC seems to be saying that if the student does this highly egregious thing on social media that has a disruptive impact on the school environment, the school cannot do anything about it —- if the student does it off of school grounds, not during school hours, etc., etc.

      When parents go to schools from now on about their child being bullied the school will NOT be able to interfere if it’s only online—- that’s my take. Again I’m a teacher, IANAL

      1. Pocket Mouse*

        I get that you’re concerned about bullying and harmful behavior, so—being on the side of the courts on this one—I want to gently encourage you to consider what speech is a component of harmful behavior by its nature (harassment, threats, slander, racial slurs) and what speech is not (negative opinions about a hobby or club, factual descriptions of one’s own experience, expressions of frustration, use of swear words). When speech is not protected, it’s because of the harmful behavior underpinning it. From what I understand, nothing the teen said caused harm in this way, and is rightly protected free speech.

      2. JustaTech*

        To me this case feel related to the “Bong Hits for Jesus” case (yes that is a real Supreme Court case).

        In that case a kid held up a sign that said “Bong Hits for Jesus” on the side of the road while the Olympic torch ran by in Alaska (in 2002). It was a school-sponsored event and the school had a very strict “no promotion of drug use” rule and the kid was suspended for 10 days.
        The kid and his parents (and I think eventually the ACLU) argued that this violated his 1st amendment rights, but the Supreme Court upheld the ruling on the grounds that schools are allowed to restrict speech that encourages illegal behavior (taking bong hits in Alaska in 2002; this would probably be different now).

        In this case, if the student who hadn’t made the team had violated a school rule about bullying or promoting violence or something (“I’m going to kill the team” or something) then it would be more reasonable to punish her, especially if the school had rules about that kind of thing. But she wasn’t doing anything *to* anyone, so I really don’t see why she should be punished by the school for it. If her parents wanted to discipline her for swearing publicly, fine. Or use it as an opportunity to teach her about the importance of pseudonyms when venting online.

        But to me it seems a huge overstep to punish a student for being upset and venting away from school. (And I say this as someone who once spent an entire week-long visit with family listening to my cousin mope and wail about not making the cheerleading team.)

        As for bullying – part of me says bullies have been carefully avoiding teachers since time began, but I agree that the internet make life a thousand times harder. But, and IANAL , if the school has specific anti-bullying rules then that *might* be enforceable where general teenaged complaining isn’t.

      3. Glomarization, Esq.*

        if the student does this highly egregious thing on social media that has a disruptive impact on the school environment, the school cannot do anything about it

        In this case, the school district did not prove that B.L.’s Snapchat had any disruptive impact: “W]hen one of B. L.’s coaches was asked directly if she had ‘any reason to think that this particular incident would disrupt class or school activities other than the fact that kids kept asking … about it,’ she responded simply, ‘No.'” The rule from Tinker is that the school can restrict a student’s speech if the speech is disruptive. But here the school admitted it wasn’t disruptive. Link and page number in reply.

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Well the consequences came because the school had a very restrictive speech code for the cheerleading team. If you read that out of the context of a school activity, you would it was something from a cult or a highly restrictive NDA. This wasn’t a decision made on the fly.

      The outcome of the court case is that kind of code is unconstitutional. The school is an arm of the government and can’t do that.

      But a private school could. And a private company could. So the analogy to employment doesn’t really hold.

      (Also, since you’re not from the US, be aware that you can find some very controlling people running the high school cheerleader scene here, which is why they had that crazy written code in the first place.)

    5. Mental Lentil*

      Something, something…academic freedom.

      I will preface this by saying that as a former US educator, US schools do a *really* poor job of preparing students for “real life” (i.e., the world of work after school).

      In the United States, “free speech” means that the government can’t take action against you for what you say (unless you are putting people’s lives in danger, which makes me wonder about what will happen with all the COVID disinformation being flung about). However, this protection does not extend to retaliatory action by your employer.

      Because schools are run by the government, this protection from government sanctions is considered to trickle down to schools as well unless, again, kids are saying something that could potentially endanger people (such as saying that they’re going to blow up their school).

      The odd thing here is…if this person applied to me as an adult, and I looked through their social media and saw that they did this as a high school students, I would likely gloss it over. Kids are kids, and they do and say stupid things in the heat of the moment.

      But if this person applied as an adult, and I recognized them from this court case, I probably wouldn’t interview them. They didn’t make it past tryouts, and made a poor choice on social media. Like I said, I’m fine with that. But the fact that she felt entitled enough to take her case all the way to the courts shows some incredibly poor judgment on the part of both her and her parents.

      Also, it’s one thing to protest an injustice (such as war) versus protesting that you weren’t good enough to get on a sports team.

      1. Spearmint*

        Really? You’d hold someone’s high school behavior against them as an adult? That’s ridiculous.

        1. have we met?*

          Mental Lentil said the exact opposite.

          “if this person applied to me as an adult, and I looked through their social media and saw that they did this as a high school students, I would likely gloss it over.”

          “Gloss it over” means they would not take it very seriously.

          1. PollyQ*

            But if this person applied as an adult, and I recognized them from this court case, I probably wouldn’t interview them.

            1. Mental Lentil*

              Yes, because I doubt that this level of bad judgment has seriously improved. It shows a sense of self-importance and entitlement we don’d need in our organization.

              1. Fushi*

                How is it bad judgment? The court literally ruled that the way she had been treated by the school was indeed illegal, which seems like pretty compelling evidence that they were right to press the case.

                If your company is against people protesting unfair treatment even when said treatment is genuinely illegal that’s really concerning tbh

      2. Glomarization, Esq.*

        I think it’s too bad that you wouldn’t interview her if you recognized her name. The case reeked of sexism (how many boys or young men would have experienced similar punishment for complaining profanely but privately on Snapchat, off campus, on a weekend for not making the team?) and the school acted unconstitutionally. On the contrary, I think she was brave with the courage of her conviction that the school had acted with injustice.

    6. Grey Panther*

      Yes, I understand that her initial time-out was for a year. Once the Supremes ruled in her favor, I think she was reinstated to the JV team.

      A valuable lesson for her parents and the courts to teach a 14-year-old, eh? Lesson being: Actions might have consequences; but if you don’t like the consequences, just keep escalating to a higher court until you get the ruling you want.

      Apologies for sounding curmudgeonly here, but to me, protesting I-got-tossed-off-the-cheer-squad is not even in the same universe as protesting against the war in Vietnam or for human rights.

      It will be interesting to hear the student’s perspective on this whole event five or six years from now.
      (I know: surly to bed, surly to rise. I think the heat’s getting to me.)

      1. Wisteria*

        Meh, I think teaching the school that teenagers are allowed to swear outside of school on their own time is an important lesson.

      2. Actual Vampire*

        That IS a good lesson to teach a 14-year-old! Imagine where we as a society would be if no one ever bothered to go to the Supreme Court!

      3. JustaTech*

        I would say 2 things: one, the circuit courts, appeals courts and Supreme Court don’t hear cases on a whim. The Supreme Court in particular only hears cases that the justices feel have an actual Constitutional question.

        Second, rights are rights, whether they be protesting a war, or making a joke, or being allowed to complain.

      4. BlueberryGirl*

        The valuable lesson for her parents and the courts to teach a 14-year-old is that you have rights. You’re right that protesting “I-got-tossed-off-the-cheer-squad” is not the same as protesting war, but both are equally protected. It is not the job of the courts to decide if the speech is “worthy” and that’s never been the criteria under which the First Amendment is reviewed. Schools can limit speech, but how much they do so is and should be very limited.

      5. Glomarization, Esq.*

        valuable lesson

        I mean, yeah. The school acted unconstitutionally to punish her. In my view it’s indeed a valuable lesson to stand up for your liberty not to be punished by the school when you’re a young woman who uses bad words off campus, on a weekend, on a social media platform wholly unrelated to school, and the school can’t even prove the constitutional minimum that you “disrupted” a class.

    7. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

      Like No Tribble At All said, she made the junior varsity team instead of the varsity team like she wanted, and then was banned from being a part of the team she made after complaining.

      The issue was that her complaint was made outside of school hours and not on any sort of school sanctioned media. Thus an argument can be made that if she was outside on her free time, the school should not be able to police her actions. When I played high school sports, we had to sign an agreement that if we did drugs, drank, did illegal things outside of school hours, we could still get removed from our respective teams. So people were arguing that it was bad sportsmanship and should be included as part of that agreement that outside of school activities can get you kicked off the team.

      It’s kind of like my old job co-worker that had a twitter (unlocked twitter btw) that complained about all of us and how much she hated us, etc. Everyone would read it to see if you got a mention. She didn’t get fired and I don’t think they could have had the grounds to do so since it was her own personal twitter account.

      1. PollyQ*

        If your co-worker was working for a private company, they absolutely could’ve fired her.

    8. Dasein9*

      She’s a child, not an employee. And while good behavior while on school property and while using school equipment and even while representing the school can certainly be demanded of her, it would be unreasonable in the extreme to expect her to behave “professionally” at all times and with all use of social media.

      She wasn’t even an adult, much less a professional, when she made that statement.
      Sure, we might have doubts about her character as a result of her actions.
      Her character is still in formation. That’s what childhood is.

      As for the First Amendment side of it, yes, she has the right to say what she wishes within certain legal boundaries and not have any government entity, including a school, interfere with that. There is no classification of speech that is “good enough” to qualify for First Amendment protections, though there are a very few forms of speech that are forbidden in the US. (Inciting a riot, fraud, etc.)

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        Yes, this. Teenagers are not required to be professionals, because they aren’t professionals.

        The school is public. A public school can not censor students speech except under exceptional circumstances. It is a branch of the government and students are legally obligated to be there. If it was a straight forward question than it wouldn’t have ended up at the Supreme Court. Personally, I don’t think the ruling means anything for private employers.

      2. DrunkAtAWedding*

        That seems a very black-and-white way of looking at things. Yes, children and adults are different…but children don’t just magically become adults the second they turn 18 or 21. They learn and grow into adulthood over the years. I’m not suggesting she should have known better, since, indeed, she was a child. Just that, if the goal of a school is to, in part, teach children how to be adults, I didn’t quite see how this was an effective way to do it.

        1. Dasein9*

          But it is not the school’s job to punish a student for legal speech outside of school hours and school property. Quite the opposite: as pointed out above, the school learned a valuable lesson about students’ rights in this case.

          1. DrunkAtAWedding*

            Oh, I understand the situation better now. I didn’t realise the school would be considered a branch of government. Now someone’s pointed that out, I get it. After all, someone could write literally the same words about any number of situations, including racism, sexism or ableism or even the Vietnam war, and it would be wrong to retaliate against that criticism. It would also be wrong to retaliate against criticism just because it’s not constructive or helpful, or because it includes swearwords, or because it’s short. I’m happy with the line being somewhere above “harmful to others” and everything else being allowed.

            …but, I didn’t know any of that when I initially asked the question. Since I didn’t realise the school=government in regards to free speech and criticism, I was thinking of it more akin to a private company. A private company probably wouldn’t look kindly on someone who’d been hired for a different role than the one they wanted making a post like that, and it might affect whether that person can still work for that company. After all, there was the NASA intern who lost her internship over a tweet (which wasn’t even negative), and probably quite a few others. In light of that being the case in the adult world and, again, not realising the school should be considered government here, then the consequences for her actions made sense. Better to learn that lesson now than learn it when she loses a NASA internship, or whatever the greater consequences would be in adulthood. Which is why it wasn’t immediately obvious to me why the cheer squad/school were in the wrong.

            …although, actually, isn’t NASA part of the government? Or is it just partially government FUNDED?

    9. Koala dreams*

      The role of students and the role of employees are very different. It doesn’t make sense to hold a high school student to the same standards as a teacher, for example. And if you, as a thought experiment, would see students as employees, there are other, more serious problems with the scenario, like minimum wage laws.

      As an aside, real life is a lot more than being an employee. That’s just a part of life, it shouldn’t be the only “real” part.

      1. DrunkAtAWedding*

        Of course students aren’t employees!

        I compared this situation to employment because that’s the common scenario where you show someone your skills in an attempt to be chosen for something. I actually can’t think of any other scenario where happens, apart from childhood sports teams or adult employment. Unless you want to split hairs and add amateur dramatics.

        1. Actual Vampire*

          Right, but when it comes to Supreme Court cases, you can’t compare situations. A decision about the rights of a child who is legally obligated to attend a government-run school has absolutely nothing to do with employment.

          1. DrunkAtAWedding*

            The issue wasn’t about attending school. It was about being on the cheerleading squad.

            Like I’ve said elsewhere, it didn’t occur to me that the school/squad would be considered an arm of the government in terms of free speech, which was the point I was missing when I asked the question.

  115. Keisha J.*

    I’ve had a rough week. I have two reports. This week my employer announced that working remotely is going to be made permanent – they have not renewed on our office building and will be giving it up at the end of August. One of my reports gave me his resignation the same day. In his resignation email he cites the remote work decision as his reason for leaving. The day the memo went out my other report told me she wanted to give me a heads up that she is job hunting. I asked if there was anything I can do and she said unless I could get the permanent remote work to be reversed there was nothing. Both want 100% in person jobs they stated.

    I’m a little bit shocked and sad. Both of these reports were long term employees (one 15 years and one 12 years). Replacing one of them would be tough but both of them, especially when both have said they are not staying beyond two weeks notice, will be really difficult. Their jobs are specialized in that licesing is required so not just anyone can step in. Additionally they both have lots of industry and institutional knowledge.

    I guess I’m just feeling off and upset because I’ve never had anyone resign or quit on me before.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      If it’s any consolation, they didn’t quit on you. They quit on the company.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Yeah, I don’t think there’s anything you can do about this. I’m sorry. That’s a tough spot to be in, but this is the consequence of your employers decision.

    3. PollyQ*

      I’m sorry, that sounds really tough. Hopefully, there’ll be potential employees out there who are thrilled to be permanently WFH.

    4. JustaTech*

      I’m sorry.
      The best consolation you can offer yourself is that it wasn’t anything *you* did, and if they find remote work that intolerable, then it’s likely that they stuck around with remote work this long at least partly because they liked you as a manager.

      As for replacing them, can you ask them to write up as much as they can for their replacements?

    5. allathian*

      Ouch, how unfortunate. But they didn’t quit on you, they quit on the company and did so because of a company decision that you had no part in. Good luck finding replacements for them.

  116. Dezzi*

    My partner had just started job hunting when she got injured at work. She’s on light duty now and probably will be for at least 2-3 more months (assuming everything goes well). Is this something she needs to disclose at any point? Does she need to pause applying/interviewing for jobs where she can’t currently perform some of the core functions, but will be able to at some point?

    Also, how does workers comp work if you leave the job where the injury happened? Do they stop paying for care if you don’t work for them any more?

    1. Construction Safety*

      Interview stage, if it comes to that. Based on 2-3 months, unless it’s food service or similar, she might be at the interview stage.
      Yes, WC should continue to pay for treatment.

      1. Dezzi*

        That’s a good point, she just had an interview with a place she applied to six weeks ago. We’re hoping it’ll only be a few more months, but it could be up to six if she ends up needing surgery. She’s currently in a STEM job that involves a lot of ladders and hauling heavy stuff around; they’re accommodating all her restrictions pretty well, but applying to similar jobs when you can’t lift more than 10 lbs or reach for anything above shoulder level is….tricky, even if it is only going to be temporary.

        The timeframe is a good point, though. I’m in an area of human services where the time between when you apply and your first day of orientation is usually about six weeks, so my perspective is a little warped.

    2. Cookie D'oh*

      My husband was laid off from the company where he had a worker’s comp claim. The claim was still open regardless of employment so he continued to get care. He eventually settled with the company.

  117. Lately Laterton*

    No one will probably read this. SO LATE. But, I needed to vent, so out it goes.

    My employee will never acknowledge he’s done something wrong or made a mistake, even when it’s clear he has. Here’s a simplified email conversation:

    Me: Fergus, can you find the address and contact information for the building manager of the Empire State Building and send it to me in the next few days.
    Fergus: Of course!
    Fergus (a few days later): I couldn’t find the building manager for the Empire State Building, but here’s a general phone number.
    Me: Ok, did you get the address too?
    Fergus: I didn’t know you needed the address.
    Me: I mentioned it in my email last week.
    Fergus: Ok, I’ll send you the address.

    It’s worse if we have verbal conversations, because then I can’t point to what was said previously. Sometimes he’ll state he “never” saw something, when I’ve explicitly sent it to him. I don’t think it’s intentional. I think his attention span is the size of a gnat.

    But, these corrections happen regularly enough that I’m starting to become concerned that he’s either hoping I don’t realize that he screwed up or worse or he doesn’t know that he’s made a mistake. When I do sit him down to talk about him not following directions I’ve given, he shuts down and acts like a dog that’s chewed your favorite shoes… just waiting for it to be over. And I’m being truthful – I’m not a yeller or shouter or curser or even a quiet seether. I may not be warm and fuzzy, but, I’m no one to be scared of.

    1. Anonymous Hippo*

      Oh dear. I hope this isn’t a new employee, because I just lost one similar.

      1. Lately Laterton*

        I didn’t get your employee. X-D He’s been with us for a few years. In the beginning I could chalk it up to a learning curve. But, I knew by the end of his first year that there were just going to be things he wasn’t going to be good at. (He’s good at other stuff, whether that other stuff is important enough is a subject of debate between me and my boss) I would be annoyed but less so if he did these thigns badly while following directions or using my advice. But, the fact that he fails to acknowledge that he missed something or did something incorrectly is driving me bananas.

        I don’t think he’s strategic enough to gaslight me. But, that’s basically what it feels like.

    2. Reba*

      Well, you can definitely talk about how he receives feedback! I feel sure Alison has written about this sometime. You can say something like, “talking about problems and ways to improve is part of working in a team, and I need you to be present in the conversation and respond, not shut down, even if it feels uncomfortable.”

      If he says he “never” saw something, you can say, “well, you should have. What steps can you take to change your email reading habits so that you catch all the information I send you?”

      I would also come up with other strategies for conveying your info. Don’t give it verbally, if possible, or ask him to repeat back the parts of the request. Maybe break out multipart things in bullets? And then, you can also ask him to be proactive about getting things right, and to come up with his own strategies — using a small notebook? Tracking software?

    3. BlueBelle*

      Yikes.
      Look at the way you formulate your email. Are the requests embedded in the paragraph or are the listed out? You shouldn’t have to bullet point or number them, but maybe it will help him see them and actually do what is being requested.
      I do think you need to have a talk with him about receiving feedback. part of the job of a manager is to develop people and if he won’t receive feedback and suggestions on how to improve then you can’t do your job and he can’t do his.
      Good luck!

      1. Mental Lentil*

        I’m always in favor of bulleted or ordered lists. Some people’s brains just can’t process a huge chunk of text. (I’ve done a lot of technical writing, and it seems a lot of it is just turning paragraphs into lists.)

        A nice thing about lists is that people can physically check them off as they get things done. They can also see what they are missing.

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      At this point, I’m wondering if there’s a serious communications issue on his end, or a communications style mismatch between the two of you.

      Can you try:
      “Fergus, a lot of the time you don’t respond to my emails with all the information I ask for. Should I be writing these assignments differently so that you understand them better?”

    5. ferrina*

      A couple options:

      – Start prepping for a PIP. Call out the behavior directly- “When I send you an email, you need to read with more attention to detail to make sure that you are giving me what I asked for.” When he misses something, “Fergus, as I mentioned before, I need you to be more careful when reading the details.” It needs to be a single, to-the-point sentence (it’s harder to be a kicked puppy when only a single sentence has been said). Then after a couple weeks of clear warning, get that PIP out. Be clear that you want him to succeed, but success looks like this. Offer resources that might help him meet his goals.
      This is the option to go if this is seriously impacting his job.

      – 1:1s for coaching. “Fergus, I’ve seen you struggle with attention to detail. I know it’s something that not everyone is strong at, and I’d love to help you develop some techniques that help you improve your skills. This week, let’s focus on ….” (I had a lot of success doing this with an employee that struggled with deadlines. We spent a summer working on techniques together, where I deliberately decreased her workload so that she could focus on building these skills. By the fall, she was much stronger at it.)

      – Checklists. Use bullets or numbers in your emails. “To recap, I need these three things from you:” You can tell Fergus that you are going to try doing this and see if it helps improve your communications.

    6. Ozzie*

      If it is happening consistently – and is more frequent when instructions are given verbally – there might be something else at play here. Obviously it’s a failure in communication though, and work isn’t getting done thoroughly, so something needs to change.

      It would be worthwhile for him to find a way to organize things he needs to do and the details around them, and you can only really encourage him to do so. I’ve found that sending (and receiving!) a list of requirements/details needed, vs when they’re embedded in a paragraph, is way, way easier to quickly and efficiently find the information I need. Opening the door for him to ask for clarification as well.

      If you’re discussed this with him specifically, multiple times, and you’re commenting that he shuts down/acts like a dog that you’re scolding… I would guess that you’re not the first person who has brought this up to him. Working with him to find an organizational structure that works would probably benefit him, even if you don’t do it totally hands on. I would wager this is something he’s struggled with elsewhere in his life, so a direct sit down discussing how he’s doing it poorly – again – just isn’t going to be effective, which is why he shuts down.

      I’m sympathetic, as someone who does the same thing. Don’t tell me something I already know, it’s just going to annoy me, especially when it’s something I have struggled with for far longer than you’ve been scolding me about it.

      It definitely doesn’t make it less annoying for you, and you do have to gauge how much energy you can invest in it. I don’t blame you for being annoyed, either! (I have also been on your end of it and it is exhausting!)

  118. Sandwiches*

    Okay so I’d posted to a couple of these open threads before, basically asking “Am I crazy or is my boss showing favouritism/treating me poorly/not doing her job right?”
    Guess what? I’m not crazy. That boss left at the end of last month and I learned and realized a LOT during her transition out. I learned that there were a lot of tasks that she wasn’t good at, that she could have been more flexible, and that at times she was flat-out rude and all of her employees deserved better. The entire job seems different now that she’s gone. I haven’t checked any job boards or LinkedIn since she left because I don’t dread starting a workday anymore.

    1. ferrina*

      Wow. Congrats on the exit of the bad boss! It is so validating to learn that it really was as bad as you thought (and sometimes worse!)

  119. All the cats for me*

    A question for managers of direct reports in an area that bills work done for clients in 6 minute increments, with budgets for billable hours and realization (hours invoiced to customer vs total billable hours charged to client. In my case I work for a public accounting office. My recent eval indicates I am not meeting expectations for realization/productivity.
    • To date I have exceeded my billable hours budget this year.
    • My realization rate is low.

    A couple of years ago the firm took over an existing practice, and were quite open (within the firm) that they knew they would take a hit on personal tax, as the clients were used to paying much lower rates than ours and rates would have to stay the same. I prepared personal tax returns for this group of clients.

    When I break down my realization, I can see that realization rates for this client group are about 40%. Target would be 90%+. Looking at the individual clients, all the billing was discounted across the board, to keep rates in client comfort zones. No matter how efficent I was in this work, it was disounted extremely heavily. In one extreme case, I billed 0.3 hours for a very simple tax return which is super unusually low. Upon invoicing, the realization for this client was 8%, due to the price sensitivity of the client, for everyone who worked on the file.

    The tax returns for this client group make up about 80% of my yearly billable time. Of the other 20%, my realizatiin is about 88%. This work involves projects that may be abandoned because the client doesn’t want to continue, and, understandably, the work may be heavily discounted or written off for major clients. Due to that, I am fairly comfortable with 88% realization, although I constantly look for ways to improve processes and learn more.

    My question to managers who would be meeting with someone in this situation – first, is it realistic to downgrade my evaluation because of firm/client economics decisions that are out of my control? And second, if you think there is an argument that it is unfair, what could be done about it? I could ask to be assigned to another client group, although that is not my first choice (and I don’t know if the request would be approved).

    How can I bring the breakdown of my client work into the discussion? Would it be effective to do so?

    Thank you for any thoughts, insights, etc.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Your employer is calculating things wrong.

      Your number of billed hours is fine. If the company chooses to offer a discount rate to some clients, that has nothing to do with how many hours you spent on it. That discount shouldn’t get washed down to your level. You’d think an accounting firm would understand how to do math…

      For the heads of practice or the account reps, however, this makes sense – because it incentivizes those people to go out and find new customers that pays full rate. I’m guessing from your post that you’re not expected to drum up new clientele — but if you are, then this is your sign to get cracking on that.

      1. All the cats for me*

        Nope, I am not expected to bring in clients – not that they would be turned away, it’s just not a core expectation. Thank goodness!

    2. Emma2*

      I think your assessment above all makes sense, but the answer may not be that they are willing to give you any additional credit towards realisation rates. Ultimately firms that bill in 6 minute increments are focused on the profitability of time. Your performance assessment based on hours and realisation rate are a reflection of how profitable you are to the firm – if your concern is about how this fits into any annual bonus you might receive, from the firm’s perspective, your profitability is directly relevant to their decision to pay you a bonus.
      If you are serving these clients because you agreed to “take one for the team”, you might have a stronger argument. If you are primarily working for this type of client because that is your preference, I suspect they will be less supportive (not necessarily, but these types of firms can be pretty ruthless in their focus on profitability). Also, and I apologise because this may come across as harsh, but if you are being assigned the work for lower value clients, there may be a question as to why that is – are you being given the lower value work because you are seen as less strong than your peers?
      I would wonder what the firm’s plans are for the client base you are primarily working for. At that much lower realisation rate, is there a reason for your firm to continue to serve that client base in the long term? If they do plan to continue doing it, how will that work fit alongside their more profitable business going forward? I think those may be points you might want to think about, and that you could discuss with your manager as they affect how you should think about your own career development.
      Unless there are reasons it would make financial sense for the firm to continue to serve this client base in the same way, I would not be surprised to see them wind down that type of work at some point. Another approach would potentially be to create a separate team to serve that client base, but that team might have a different compensation level, or different prospects in terms of partnership (I am assuming you are working within a partnership structure). If most of your relationships are with clients who generate comparatively lower billings, unfortunately, in most places, that is likely to be a real hurdle to becoming an equity partner – partnerships typically look at the billings you would be expected to bring in and have targets for the partners.
      I think you can raise the realisation rate in a discussion with your manager. I think it would also be sensible to talk about what the realisation rate for this type of client means for your work going forward – your manager may or may not be forthcoming on the firm’s plans, but it would be helpful for you to understand what focusing on this client base might mean for your career.

      1. All the cats for me*

        A bit more info: I am actually semi-retired, and work “as needed” most of the year, and full time with budgeted overtime targets during tax season. I am not in any way in line for, or wanting to develop to partner track, or to supervisory roles. I quite like the working arrangement and the work I do is interesting and gives me opportunities to learn.

        My manager, who is a partner, asked me to take on this client group for personal tax, as described above. I work really well with this Partner and she constantly teaches me and gives me stretch work, which I love. That is the main reason why I would be reluctant to request to return to doing “lottery” tax returns (by which I mean any return for any client, except the bill-averse group I am currently dedicated to). So in effect I did agree to “take one for the team” and there was discussion about the effect this would have on my realization, and consideration to be allowed, but this seemingly has been overcome by events.

        Nothing has ever been explicitly stated regarding the firm’s motives in acquiring the practice with bill averse personal tax clients, I can only speculate that there were some high revenue corporate clients in the mix, and running out the personal tax clients until attrition took care of them was considered a reasonable cost in the short-term.

        I hope and expect to work approximately 10 more years with the firm before I completely retire. Honestly, my issue is more that it irks me to have this issue raised, given the circumstances with this group of clients, and the retroactive forgetfullness of the management. I want to be able to respond to the issue in a reasonable sort of way and be able to back up my position. I guess if they stick to their position, the only thing I can really do is request to be taken off the cheapo client pool. And, of course, be labelled “not really a team player”. sigh.

  120. EchoGirl*

    So, I have a potential issue related to employers Googling prospective employees, and I’m wondering if it’s anything I need to be concerned about.

    Here’s the situation: one of the first things that comes up when you Google my name is an article that, as it happens, states inaccurate information about me. (I have a first name/last name combination that literally no one else in the world has, plus there’s a picture, so there can be no question it’s me.) Thankfully, it’s not a situation where they’re saying anything negative about me, but it directly contradicts my resume — the article, which is from last year, states that I was working for a certain employer at the time the article was written, while my resume correctly states that I last worked for them in 2015. I’m a little concerned that an employer might notice the discrepancy and think I lied on my resume and/or was careless in writing it. Had I become aware of this right away, I would have submitted a correction, but I didn’t see the article until several months had already passed. Is this actually something that employers would notice or care about, and if so, what do I do about it?

    (To be clear, I do believe this was a genuine error, not an intentional deception; I did consent to the photo being taken and gave them permission to use it, this employer employs a lot of people, and I had little to no contact with the people who would have been sources for the article, so my best guess is that whoever gave them the information just didn’t double-check my status first. I just need to know if this could affect future job hunting.)

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Could you contact the article’s host or publisher or whatever and ask them to correct the misinformation, either in-line or by posting a correction addendum?

        1. EchoGirl*

          To be clear, it’s not an internal article, it’s a third-party news article about them; they were a source, but they didn’t actually write the article.

          1. Blackcat*

            I think you can reach out to the listed reporter or relevant editor and ask them to correct it. It’s not a huge deal.

          2. WellRed*

            Yes I know what she meant. I’m a writer/reporter and I would immediately fix this if contacted.

      2. EchoGirl*

        Like I said, it was almost a year ago, and it ran on a couple of different sites, I’m not even sure where it originated, so I kind of feel like the genie’s out of the bottle here. (I’d link it for clarity but I don’t necessarily want my real name associated with my account.)

        1. Emma Dilemma*

          You can ask google to remove info about you if it’s incorrect.

          I would also contact the websites! Chances are they will be happy to correct it.

    2. animaniactoo*

      Eh, I would say you can simply do an asterisk on the company date*

      *Please note, there is an article that which comes up in a Google search for my name which incorrectly states my time at this company. This is the correct end-date, it can be verified with a call to their HR dept.

      Most will probably think the article has an error, but if it sets your mind at ease the asterisk route gets you out ahead of it.

      1. EchoGirl*

        Nah, I just wanted to know if employers would find it weird or suspicious. I kind of figured it wouldn’t be a big thing, but I haven’t really had the kind of jobs that would expose me to those norms (most of my work history is Americorps, freelancing/contract work, and service-type jobs that practically hire anyone with a pulse), and I do have the unique name thing going on, so I figured I’d ask the question of people likely to know more about it than me.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          A surprising number of news articles have incorrect information. We have a reporter here who cannot report a sunrise without getting something wrong. I think that most people are aware that there are often errors in articles.

  121. Mister Meeble*

    I’ve been at my current employer for 5½ years and have filled a variety of roles including as a software developer and eventually a product owner. During that time, I have gotten a certification as a PO.

    I am the only person in a 100+ employee company with this title. My role is a bit more hybrid, with troubleshooting, debugging, etc. and it relies on my institutional knowledge that came from working with this company in addition to my technical acumen form many years as a developer.

    I was told this week that my position is “being eliminated”. It’s not due to performance since I’ve never had any negative feedback or critical reviews. Within the past few months there has been some investment money in the company and restructuring. I’m not taking it personally, but as a decision being directed by the new money.

    Regardless of the reasons, it’s time for a job hunt. I’ve got roughly 60 days before I “resign”* and will get decent severance at that point. I intend to document my various duties and roles as best I can to leave them in a good place. But I will also leave sooner if the right opportunity comes up. Everyone involved knows this.

    My existing manager (a VP) already said to use him as a reference as did another Senior VP. I suspect I can get a letter of recommendation from the CEO as well, if not a direct reference. And I’m being given whatever time I need before my “cutoff date” to job search, interview, etc. I’ve seen others get a tap on the shoulder and be shown the door, so I am being given the opportunity for a very graceful exit.

    I’m wondering how to present everything in the best possible light when interviewing and being asked why I’m leaving my current company. I figure a direct and honest answer, along the lines of “they’re eliminating the product owner role and have given me time to find a new opportunity” or something along those lines but wanted the AAM hive mind’s opinion and ideas.

    * And yes, I know the implications of me resigning vs being laid off, etc.

    1. ferrina*

      Yep, you can usually just say that “the company is being restructured and my current role is being eliminated.” Most folks won’t ask beyond that.
      When I ask “Why are you looking to leave your current company?”, I’m just looking to make sure that 1. This person doesn’t start immediately bad-talking their employer/co-workers and 2. We don’t have the reason that they are leaving as part of our culture. For example, I once had a candidate say that she had had three bosses in three years and she was looking for more stability. Whelp, I was on Boss #3 in less than three years….that would not have been a good match.

    2. Colette*

      I’d just say “my position has been eliminated”. You don’t need to explain more – if they want to know, they’ll ask.

    3. Mister Meeble*

      Thank you both for the replies. I’m glad it’s not some sort of secret code for “he was rally fired but we don’t want to say that” or something else. :)

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I have often thought that if they doubted me, they can probably hunt around and verify without me knowing.

        However, you have a pre-emptive strike card in that you can say the CEO and VP will attest to the fact that you are a good worker and the situation is indeed a restructure. I would go ahead and just lay that out so the interviewer knows up front.

  122. a bird*

    In early 2020 or so I commented to tell a startup interview horror story, and got some great advice and cathartic empathy. Pleased to report that while I did not end up finding a full-time job, I’m now freelancing quite happily and on track to make more money than I did at my previous job on my own. Cheers!

  123. Mister Meeble*

    I was happily working for Company A, which happened to have a number of employees from Company B who “came over”. Some of their own volition, some were offered jobs. Oddly, the two companies weren’t even in the same industry or competing in any way, except for employees.

    Company B called for an interview. It was scheduled for 5pm on a Friday between me and the CEO. Interview wetn well enough but there were red flags from the get-go.

    – Odd office layout with lots of different areas like a full (and staffed) call center for a company that “made computer games”
    – Developer room had cheap collapsible tables with low-spec Dell computers on them. Very cheap and this was not a temporary area.
    – Company’s web presence was practically nil and no info on the web about them. This was about 12 years ago, so there should have been some info.
    – During the interview I was asked what salary I needed and I picked one 25% more than I was making. At the end of the interview, I was offered nearly 10% MORE than that.
    – Company A had me working typical “9 to 5” and was a 15-minutes commute. New job was “8-6” and 45 minutes each way on a good day. (Not so much a red flag but undesirable.)

    And on and on. It was a lot more money, but also a lot more time away form my life. Plus lots of other stuff just made me uncomfortable. So I declined. My wife was really upset at the time, since the increase in income would have helped us a lot. But she got over it.

    About 2 months later I saw a headline where the company’s office had been raided by the FBI and shut down. The “CEO” I interviewed with was “acting” CEO since the real CEO was in prison for some sort of fraud. I’m thankful I trusted my gut instinct on that one. Definitely dodged a bullet.

      1. Mister Meeble*

        They thought it was both games (as in computer games and online games) as well as some sort of online sales, which they were doing, but with aspects of fraud, hence the raid.

  124. The Dude Abides*

    Looking for tips for those who have done phone screens/interviews via Teams, as it is new territory for me.

    I have a phone screen next week. I’m not necessarily looking to leave where I’m at, but the job is in an industry I have worked in before, and would like to return to if the right situation presents itself.

    The job posting indicated that they would be open to someone remote, but did not give details. I do plan on grilling them on this, as the wrong answer would make it a waste of my time to continue.

    1. Accounting Student*

      Try to get familiar with how Teams works before your interviews, since every software has different controls, symbols, functions, etc. Teams is good at using virtual backgrounds, and has a feature to blur your real background without using a virtual one. Be sure that your physical background is okay, and your background – whether real or virtual – should not be distracting. Also make sure that your appearance – clothes, lighting, etc. – is okay. You might look good in a mirror but off on camera, or vice versa.
      Lighting is very important. Play around with it well before the interview time to find a good spot and/or rearrange some lamps.
      If you can, hop on a teams call with friend(s) and/or family member(s) to get used to the controls, make sure you look okay (no weird lighting shadows or strange background), and make sure your sound is good.
      Make sure your computer (laptop, tablet, whatever you’re using – laptop or desktop is probably best) is plugged in, as any video conferencing, especially using a virtual background, will drain the battery.
      Good luck!

      1. Accounting Student*

        One reason it is important to have a non-distracting background:
        Last year I had an interview with someone wearing a bright, busy pattern and whose virtual background was a picture of many brightly colored fall leaves. One or the other on its own would fine (shirt) or not good (background). The combination was extremely distracting, a sort of visual overload – I couldn’t concentrate on what the interviewer was saying or asking me.

      2. James*

        “If you can, hop on a teams call with friend(s) and/or family member(s) to get used to the controls, make sure you look okay (no weird lighting shadows or strange background), and make sure your sound is good.”

        This is fantastic advice. My wife and I did this a few times, and we were able to find a few backgrounds burried in the program (likely put there by our employers), play around with them, and find one that works for us. Lighting is still something I struggle with–I like a darker work space than most, and have turned the brightness on my computer down to compensate–but at least they don’t see my random collection of books and tools when I’m on screen!

        1. The Dude Abides*

          I will try this for sure. I’m using my personal laptop to do this and will be in the unfinished basement, so it will be a challenge to set this up.

    2. animaniactoo*

      My only real tip is to remember to stay engaged and looking at your screen unless you are clearly looking up information or something to send/share with the interviewer. Or jotting something down as part of your own note-taking.

      It becomes really easy to let your attention wander when you’re thinking about an answer and you’re faced with a person on a screen rather than a live person in front of you.

      So, as much as you can, eliminate background distractions from in front of you and make sure to keep focused on the screen/camera.

  125. Accounting Student*

    For any one who has worked in accounting, do you know of any accounting related websites or forums?
    Right now I’m looking for resume advice (to apply for an internship/co-op at a Big 4). I met with my school’s general career center, but they have no clue about accounting or business stuff so their help isn’t very helpful. Mostly I’m looking for help formulating bullet points for my previous internship/co-op in accounting – I have a list of all the tasks/things I worked on, but am having difficulty condensing and wording everything. (Ex. I could say ‘everything was excel and PDFs’ or I could say ‘here is the list of every type of report I worked on’ but I think there should be some middle ground. Also to not just copy the points from my previous co-op – basically same task, done differently but everything is excel + PDF.)

    1. Lifelong student*

      Try either the AICPA website or your state association. They can be very helpful particularly to students. Our state association (PA- PIVPA.org) gives free memberships to students.

  126. CatsAreBetterThanPeople*

    I work for a more conservative organization and I am starting to get fed up with some of my team’s COVID talk. I’ve known their stance on things for pretty much the whole pandemic, and they all think COVID has been blown out of proportion and isn’t that bad…you know the drill. Aside from myself, there is only one other person on my team who has been vaccinated (you can see why I am pretty glad to be working from home.)

    Anyway, we have numerous check-ins every week as a team, and today’s check-in was more of a fun, chatty, yay it’s Friday check-in (it always is towards the end of the week) and both my direct supervisor and our director were out of the office. Well low-and-behold, COVID talk comes up when the Olympics are mentioned. This is the third or so time in the past couple of weeks COVID has come up, and every time talk has been about “that seems suspicious” and “vaccine side effects are why we have to fight for our rights.” Again, you know the drill.

    I might be extra sensitive right now because one of my close friends just got home from the hospital with COVID pneumonia and is on oxygen at 29 years old, but I’m really fed up. Should I bring this up with my boss? I don’t know what to do because she is right there with all these people on my team talking about how COVID is a hoax and they shouldn’t require masks anywhere and all that, but I feel like this sort of talk is insensitive and shouldn’t be happening at work. I just don’t know if I should grin and bear it or what… Help?!

    1. Teapot Repair Technician*

      If the meeting has devolved into small talk, do you even have to be there?

      1. CatsAreBetterThanPeople*

        I honestly am not sure if I need to be there, so that’s something to consider… at least for the Friday meetings!

    2. animaniactoo*

      How do you feel about saying “I keep hearing that COVID is a hoax, but I currently have a 29 year old friend who has/had it and just got out of the hospital and she’s still on oxygen and I am so scared for her. So, I don’t think it’s a hoax and I would really appreciate if we could stop debating the topic of whether or not it’s a hoax and vaccine side effects and the like during our team check-ins.”?

      1. CatsAreBetterThanPeople*

        I think that could work…I feel like I have no backup/recourse since most everyone else adheres to the same beliefs, but I feel like if I don’t say something I will go crazy!

    3. WellRed*

      Why is it that the people who are most against COVID and vaccines are the ones who never Shut The Eff up about it?

      1. CatsAreBetterThanPeople*

        Right?! The only time I’ve ever really brought it up at work was when I’d be out for my vaccine appointment! Oh, and another time when our director went on a rant about how hand sanitizer shouldn’t be pushed on us to kill COVID since COVID is a virus and hand sanitizer is antibacterial not antiviral…to which I responded that it’s the alcohol content that kills COVID (and of course he said some snarky remark about how he didn’t know that because he’s not filling his head with COVID information.)

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I am not very patient and I could probably do better. But I absolutely hate a singular focus on one topic- I don’t care if it’s football or covid or the price of gas. I hate when one topic gets beaten over and over. Not just at work, I am the same way at home.

      I think you might gain ground by saying, “Let’s talk about other things [or happier things, whatever]. I think we have this pretty well covered.”

      What I hate about this is that it feels like I have failed to get my points across. What I like about this is that if they move on, then my need to get my points across diminishes a lot.

      1. CatsAreBetterThanPeople*

        I like this strategy! Keeping this in my back pocket for when this topic comes up again.

  127. SecretHire*

    So as with most people, I was job hunting for the past many months. But after multiple rejections, I vent out my frustration to a friend…who happened to be friends with a hiring director of a certain public sector in my city.

    I’m sure you can tell where this goes but my friend referred me to this director, who somehow made a “new” position for me. By the end of the month, I got the job. I have never submitted an application or resume nor had a “formal” interview with anyone else besides the director. We met only once and it was more of a casual conversation than an interview.

    I then received a call from the director, after about two weeks of no-contact, asking me if I still needed a job, and when I said yes, he told me that I’m hired. In desperation, I took the job.

    Now I’m feeling extra guilty after some time has gone by and after having some deep thoughts about it. I feel guilty because I know I haven’t gone through the proper channel of the hiring process, and the potential consequences should it ever come out gives me heavy anxiety. I’m thankful for my friend for doing this and also the hiring director (who is my direct boss now) for the opportunity. So I guess this might count as nepotism and I know what I did was wrong. I wonder if anyone has gone through something similar. If you did, how did you process it? Should I continue to find another job the proper way? Would it make me look bad if I quit even after they’ve done so much for me to get this job?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Why is what you did wrong? This just sounds like a successful case of networking to me.

        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          Ah that’s good to know, thanks! I’ve never worked in the public sector so I don’t have any insight into that aspect.

    2. PollyQ*

      First, nepotism is for relatives, which you’re not. Second, it doesn’t sound like anyone did this as a favor to anyone else. The director met you, liked you, and hired you.

      Third, this is entirely normal. Many people get jobs this way, and neither you nor the company have done anything wrong. I’m not sure what “consequences” you imagine would be imposed on anyone, or who’d be doing the imposing. For non-government jobs, there’s no legal requirement to have any kind of formal hiring procedure, and I doubt the director would violate a company policy for a friend-of-a-friend. So don’t feel guilty, and definitely don’t quit! Just do your job to the best of your ability and you’ll be fine.

      1. PollyQ*

        Whoops, I missed that this is a public employer! I’m still not sure that means that the director did anything wrong in the way he hired you, though, and it doesn’t change my advice.

    3. Teapot Repair Technician*

      This sounds fishy.

      If he had hired you sight-unseen into an existing position, that would be suspicious. But what kind of public-sector organization allows a director to create a new position for a specific person?

      Personally I would nope out of there. Maybe it’s all above board, but I wouldn’t want to risk being involved in a scandal.

      1. Chris too*

        I have worked in a government job that sometimes hires people like this. It’s so obscure nobody knows to apply. They will post the position every few years but only when they are looking to hire multiple people, and they find most of the applicants aren’t suitable. Don’t feel guilty, if you fit their needs you could be helping them out of a bind, and you’re not cheating anyone.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Yep. I got my last two government jobs this way.
          There was zero public interest, no one applied. The people involved turned to word of mouth and asking specific individuals for recommendations. A job can sit open for months and months and no bites on the job.

          I’d have to do a deeper dive on what specifically happened. She designed the job for you. Okay, this could be that she saw you would not be able to do x or y so she delegated those tasks to someone else. It could be a lot of things and I can’t really tell from here. If you are on the government payroll at any level- some where there is a board that approved your hire. That approval can look like, “Okay, Ms. Director go ahead and hire someone to do X, Y and Z for your department.”

          You ask how we would process this. Personally, I know for a fact that guilt is a killer. I’d find ways to confront my guilt so I could keep the job. Probably not the answer you want to hear, but go to the boss and say you are concerned that you did not go through proper channels and you could get in trouble later. I hope I can encourage you to confront this situation BEFORE it ruins the job for you. Because it will ruin this job if you do not meet that guilt head on and find out exactly what did happen.

          I am in rural America. And this is the norm. We have to beg and plead with people to get positions filled here. I think once you understand the norms of your area and why things happen the way they do then you will finally see that they needed someone to do the darn job and you were the only person interested.

          In response to those who think this is fishy, yes, in a different setting it would be fishy. But smaller communities can get very desperate to find people to fill slots. Also in smaller communities it is absolutely impossible to find people who are not related or not within one or two degrees of relationship with the hiring manager. My state is doing more with external audits and additional checks are set up to counter-balance everyone’s inter-connectedness.

          OP, it is okay to tell your boss that you want to be transparent and you want to work with ethics and integrity. A good boss will be totally delighted to hear this.

    4. Joy*

      Is it a permanent position? What level of government? In the public service I’m in, you can absolutely get positions this way and it’s very normal and nothing to feel guilty about– but only for shorter term contract positions, never for permanent ones.

      My husband, for example, got his first government job at a lunch for a friend of mine, whose other friend asked what he did (finishing grad school) and asked if he wanted a job. But it took a year and a half and many more formal steps before he secured a permanent position!

    5. star*

      I got my first two goverment jobs in similar ways.
      First was three months (before a move abroad) after I gave a talk which was organised by the person who became my boss.
      Second was five months: had coffee with the big boss after a friend recommended me to him. Got job working alongside the friend on a project that was just starting and a priority. I later interviewed for and got the same job as a permanent role.

      Public sector have a lot of barriers to hiring good people (e.g. bureaucracy, pay levels), but they do have some flexibilities, and at the end of the day we have to compete with private sector who can be far more flexible. We have particular paperwork to recruit people quickly (“quickly”!!) to positions that are hard to fill.

      It sounds to me that you haven’t done anything wrong.

      It might set your mind at ease to ask your new boss or your friend about the paperwork. “I didn’t have to submit a resume, what more do we need to do to finalise the formalities of my employment?”

  128. agender blood elf*

    today i received a surprise raise! (yay!)

    i’m a little confused as to whether if it’s a ‘good’ raise or not. for context, i’ve been in my field (marketing/content creation) for about 8 years and am paid hourly. i’ve received raises before under a different supervisor, usually to the tune of 2-3 dollars higher than my current wage at the time. since that supervisor left, i started working directly under the ceo with minimal supervision and hadn’t received any kind of raise in 3 years. i’ve heard it’s very rare for folks at my company to recieve a raise at all.

    i ramped up production a lot last year for the 2 months that we worked from home, and since we went back in may 2020 have taken on a lot of responsibilities outside my usual purview including supporting sales & design more heavily and also working with supplier diversity contacts. i’ve also been a key team member on a new website launch as well as a huge partner event. this has all added a considerable amount of stress to my already-taxed mental load, but i’ve tried to be flexible and roll with the punches as job prospects have been pretty slim for me. i had been planning to speak to my ceo about a more substantial raise in line with the types of raises i’d received previously, 2-3 dollars more in early august.

    today i received an 80 cent raise.

    is this justifiable/normal? this is the only major company i’ve ever worked at, and i don’t know if i’m expecting too much or if i should just be happy with what i have…worried i come off as ‘entitled’…etc. etc.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      It doesn’t really matter if it’s “normal”, you haven’t gotten a real raise in years and you’re clearly not happy. You’ve been at the same place for a long time, why not look around and see if there’s anything better out there?

      FWIW I don’t think you sound entitled, I think you can do much better.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Three years of no raises, increased workload and significant accomplishments in the last year and a half, and your surprise raise is about a third of what you used to get as a raise?

      It might be normal for your company, but your company doesn’t do raises very well especially as a reward or retention tool. I suggest bringing up the proposed raise like you were planning to, in light of all of your additional efforts, and definitely keep job hunting.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      It’s possible for your raise to be “good” inside your company, but “not good” in comparison to the rest of the world.

      You have not had a raise in three years so this just a little more than 25 cents per hour for each year.
      Talk to your CEO but also dust off your resume.

  129. I don't know*

    Can I leave early if I can’t stay awake at work, and if I have an emergency where I’ll need to leave only half an hour early is it necessary to ping boss (for both hourly and salary)?

    1. PollyQ*

      In many workplaces, you could probably leave for extreme tiredness if you called it “not feeling well,” although not everyone would be cool with it. For many exempt employees, leaving a half-hour early wouldn’t be an issue, although regardless of exempt status, there are jobs/bosses that have strict hours, so you would need to ping your boss.

    3. animaniactoo*

      Yes, you can leave early if you can’t stay awake. You’re having functional issues that mean you’re not productive and staying in the office isn’t serving you or the business well.

      Have an emergency – yes, you probably still need to ping your boss. It can be after you’ve left, but you still need to ping your boss on the way out the door.

      The best way to figure out if you should ping your boss in that kind of emergency but the day was almost over anyway is to ask your boss how they would like you to handle that kind of situation. You can pose it as “I don’t expect it to happen, but I saw a question about this/it happened to someone I know/etc. and I realized I don’t know what the expectation would be for me here.”

    4. BlueberryGirl*

      If you can’t stay awake, leave early. You’re not feeling well. That’s all I would say.

      As for leaving early, I would expect to be told if an employee needed to leave early, regardless of cause. I don’t expect to be asked for permission, but I am responsible for knowing where my staff are. So, yeah, if the office isn’t staffed and I didn’t know it wasn’t staffed, that’s a problem for me and for my bosses.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Adding, any time I have had to leave early I tried to figure out what I can change so that it doesn’t happen again. To me, not being able to stay awake is particularly frightening because I’d still have to drive home. Falling asleep behind the wheel happens so easily and fast.

      I’d never leave without notifying someone*. In some jobs you ask because telling them is Not Appropriate. If you have to ask at your job, don’t be surprised if the answer is no. YMMV depending on your arena, workplace, boss and many other factors.

      *Notifying someone. What if there is a fire and someone decides to go back in the building to look for me because no one knows I have left? omg. I have gone through small fires, bomb scares and gas leaks. If my subordinate left the building without telling me, we’d be sitting down for a chat.

      1. NoLongerYoung*

        What can you do to make your future you/office time better, that is physical? Walking back and forth to the bathroom; restocking post it notes; etc. If you have stairs between floors, walk upstairs, go to the bathroom, get a cup of tea, walk back down….

        I have a handful of tasks that could be done – if a half hour is all I need to tough it out. Clean out my desk drawers (and wipe down); delete old emails; clean the computer keyboard and screens; sharpen all my pencils; check the required learning online and note which ones are shortest (maybe start it).

        Keep moving since it is difficult to fall asleep if you are walking/moving. But figure out what it is that is causing this. I had severe anemia (literally, affecting my heart) that left me exhausted; coupled with an inability to eat carbs without a sugar drop, left me almost face planting at a specific afternoon point. (I’m getting iron infusions now, and can’t eat any carbs at lunch).

        I’m also in a better place job (hope to have good news for a Friday report) and emotion wise, so I am not finding that my urge to sleep to avoid unpleasant tasks is kicking in (any longer). That used to be a problem…

        You do not want leaving early to be a noticeable habit. Deviation from the norm is noticed, whether yuo think so or not.

  130. ScifiScientist*

    I have a full time administrative contract worker that we are planning to offer a contract renewal at half time (My supervisor made the decision, but I’m this person’s direct supervisor). His work is good but there just isn’t enough of it to fill up a full time schedule. He does not actively seek out additional work or improve his skills in associated admin work. The previous person in my position told him there was enough funding for a full time contract through at least 2023, so there is no expectation on his part that there would be a reduction in hours. Additionally, he is expecting to be reclassified and receive a raise, which I don’t think is warranted. So now I have to have both the you aren’t getting a raise, and the we are only going to renew your contract conversations. I was expecting to have the renewal one in about a month but the timeline is now accelerated. I would like him to stay in his current role as a half-time contract and he isn’t using this role as a career ladder since he has already retired from his first career and this is more of a retirement job. Any recommendations about how to approach this?

    1. animaniactoo*

      I think it sounds like you can focus on the amount of work available vs the funding – e.i. even if the funding is there, you can’t responsibly use all of it when the amount of work doesn’t justify it.

      Have you previously addressed the issues of not seeking additional work or improving skills? That these are things that you expect of someone in the role?

      You can emphasize that you don’t have a problem with the quality of his work and would love to have him continue to do the same work IF part-time hours works for him. In doing that though, make sure that you are not so determined to keep him that you’re not giving him the understanding that this may be a change he’s not willing to go along with, especially if he’s going to lose benefits by going from full time to part time.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. Be sure to specify that it’s not enough just to have funding, there also has to be work available to do. You can say the previous boss was correct about the funding but the other half of the story is that there also needs to be work to do.

        You can tell him that he can use some of this slower time to work on professional development. You need to see him working on a, b and c skills and developing those skills. Talk about what that learning looks like, what is involved and how it will be determined that he successfully mastered these skills.

      2. ScifiScientist*

        Thanks!
        I will have to check on the benefits issue because I’m not sure how that works (we don’t typically have any contractors so this whole situation is unusual).

  131. ESP*

    I’m applying to a job at a popular TV network… I’m wondering if I should say I’m a fan of the work they do in any way in the cover letter or if it’s best to just keep it very straight and business like, like it’s any other company? Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks in advance!

    1. animaniactoo*

      You can say you’re a fan of the work they do – as long as you specify what work it is that you’re talking about and how you connect to it.

      i.e. It’s not enough to say “I’m such a fan of the work that you do, I love Shark Week!”

      you have to say “I think the work you do is incredibly important and I’m a fan of your programming on shows like X and Y. I think these are a great resource for creating awareness of the resilience of Z.”

  132. Not So NewReader*

    Everyone is a fan. What makes you different? sincere question. The answer could look like, “I noticed that your company does X and other networks do not, I find that admirable.” You want to try to show a deeper level of understanding and that you have spent time and thought in your observations. “A few years ago you folks added A and B, which was way ahead of everyone else and really helped popularity.”

    Ideally tie your observations into something adjacent to what you would be doing. That may be even a bit harder. But if you think of it as being a fan is not a job qualification it makes it a bit easier to think about what you have specifically observed that you really like.

  133. Area51*

    Is it a bad idea to add a note to your LinkedIn profile telling recruiters not to bother contacting you if they’re offering certain roles? For example, I have extensive experience in llama grooming. In fact, I have so much experience in llama grooming that I’ve moved into llama grooming project management, because there is almost nothing in llama grooming I haven’t done. But still recruiters contact me with opportunities I’ve already done, many times and for many years, though my LinkedIn profile shows my change in career path.

    It’s getting tiring to deal with these recruiters. Is this just the way it is–recruiters email you with roles you did 5-15 years ago and ignore your current role and responsibilities?

    1. animaniactoo*

      The primary reason I wouldn’t do it is because you can expect the recruiters who are e-mailing you for positions that you are clearly no longer working to ignore any note that you do not wish to be contacted for those roles.

      I mean… if you want to put it up there, you MIGHT reduce your emails by one or two, but I wouldn’t expect it to make a significant difference in volume.

    2. RagingADHD*

      I agree with animaniac. They didn’t read your resume, they aren’t going to read a note. And a note like that just comes off very…well, like a dating profile where you’re warning off the “wrong type.”

      You don’t actually have to deal with recruiters who cold email you. Yiu can just delete the messages without responding.

    3. Eden*

      It’s going to come off strangely to some people while some won’t care. But those sending you the positions you don’t want will certainly ignore it. Just ignore all LI messages unless they seem relevant.

    4. NoLongerYoung*

      I have the same problem. They simply don’t seem to understand that 10 years as a senior groomer probably means you are NOT looking to be a groomer or senior groomer again.
      I ignore if I’m swamped, or if they are representing a strong company, send them my salary range and title of the job I am looking for. (Salary range is for the position I AM looking for, which is paid above the senior groomer range). This usually cordially ends it. But let them know if they have that next role… let me know.
      You can write up a sticky/notepad note with the polite text response, and just copy and paste it in.
      Apparently my area has exploded, and there is a shortage of groomers/ senior groomers. No thank you, but I am polite and treat it as a networking opportunity to put a plug in for what I do want.

  134. Courageous cat*

    I’ve been unemployed since May now and have taken a bit of a hit to my self-esteem as a result. I’m going to hear on Monday whether I get the job I’m a finalist for and really want, so… no questions really, just requesting positive vibes please!!

  135. Meghan*

    How would you update your resume if the job you’re doing is a step up from what you were doing, but your title hasn’t changed? (Same employer, same department)

    My title was going to change from Sales Coordinator to Group and Meeting Service Manager and my raise was approved but not the title change (would have to be posted internally for 30 days and then externally for 30 days). So I’m doing the Service Manager job, I’m just still called the Coordinator.

    I’ve been there for 3 years so if I move on to a different property I’d like to show that I…. sort of, was promoted.

    1. WellRed*

      Hmm. Is there a way to list it as a bullet point under accomplishents in the job. “ in 2021 took on specific, specific, specific…” not ideal but I have the same problem.

  136. Syddoa*

    Hi Folks!
    After reading AAM for a few months, I recently accepted a job offer at a fully remote org that I absolutely love!! I’ve been there about 6 weeks so far and it’s going pretty well in my opinion. The only issue is that I sometimes find I don’t have enough work to keep me occupied for a full 40-hour workweek. It’s a global organization and I’m based in Asia so a lot of the time when I start my day, most of my co-workers are asleep. That means my mornings are largely free and I tend to have a few meetings at night when I’m winding down for the day.

    This is my second job our of Uni so I would love some insight. Is this normal and just part of new jobs? Should I just go with it and expect my mornings will get busier later?

    1. PX*

      6 weeks in is still early days, but a good way to develop a reputation as a good employee is to flag it, ask for more work, or take initiative to find things you could help improve/work on by yourself.

      I’d suggest as time goes on, you might appreciate the quieter morning to do focus work, and then block the evenings for meetings etc. Or you could even make a conscious shift to move your work day to align a bit more with your colleagues if you like!

      But also, some jobs have busy and quiet periods, so you might just be in one now. Or you might be lucky and just have job where there isnt 40hours of work a week, but as long as no one minds and they are happy to keep paying you, you can also enjoy an excellent work life balance!

  137. HA2*

    So. Made big decisions recently. I’ve decided I’m going to try to move away, and thus look for permanently remote positions in my industry (tech in SF).

    Aaaaahhhhh, it’s scary!

    Reached out to some former colleagues and sent in a few applications, have a few interviews lined up next week, which feels way too fast because I don’t want to leave my current job for a few months at least. But I don’t know how fully-remote interviews will work.

    Any tips for looking for fully-remote work in tech?

    1. Eden*

      Remote interviews at my tech company work pretty much the same as in person ones used to except the physical whiteboard is replaced with technology. E.g. for a dev, we have a codeshare site set up and an online “whiteboard” for scribbles. There’s not any process difference or anything.

  138. PX*

    Just shouting into the void here, but I have a job offer which means I can leave my absolutely terrible culture fit of a job (yay!). But I’m too scared to get excited until I actually start because I also thought my current absolutely terrible culture fit of a job would be great and then it turned out to be the exact opposite as soon as I started.

    Still though, lots more money which can make many things much more tolerable!

  139. LCH*

    I’m acting as a reference for someone. They are filling out an application that wants my phone and address (not email). I don’t have a work address and don’t really want to give my home addresses. But should I?

    1. ecnaseener*

      If it’s a required question, I guess. Odds are they’re not going to use it. If you have a contact person there you could try asking whether they really need it or if it’s okay to just write in “phone only please” or something.

      1. LCH*

        I suggested they write “no work address available” to give context for why it isn’t included. It’s a local gov office so I don’t know how easy it would be to get someone on the phone for clarification but it I were the applicant I’d probably try. It seems like an outdated form.

  140. Board or Job?*

    Hi everyone,

    I’m a long time reader and just got my first full time job, yay! The only problem is that right before getting it, I got the opportunity to be on the board of a prominent local governmental organization on the state level. These two things are about to conflict and I don’t know what to do.

    According to the agenda, the first day of the retreat for my board position (which I’ll be attending remotely) is from 1 to 5. I’ll be working from 9 AM to 6 PM. It also looks like there’s only one hour of real content in the retreat on that day (the rest is all ice-breakers). I’m also concerned because of my not requesting time off two weeks in advance. My manager has been out on leave so I’ll be meeting with her next week. Should I take the hours of the retreat off from work as vacation time? Tell the board my work will end up conflicting? I don’t know what to do and it’s stressing me out!

    1. peasblossom*

      Can you attend the rest of the retreat days? If so, I’d just write to the organizer telling them that you’ve just begun a new job that conflicts with the first day of attendance, and so, unfortunately, you won’t be able to make that first session. Assure them that you’ll be at the rest of the retreat (if that’s true), and ask if there’s any information you can send along in advance to help facilitate things.

      Also, it’d be helpful to figure out if you think the job is likely to cause an ongoing conflict with your board work. You may not know yet! But it can help you plan ahead, and you might talk to one of the organizers for/on the board about scheduling problems. Surely you’re not the first person to have this issue.

      1. Board or Job?*

        Unfortunately the retreat is two days, and my work will conflict with both. I will talk to the board regardless of if my vacation gets approved or not. I think it will, I’ll just have to take it unpaid since I haven’t been there for 30 days yet.

  141. Cinderella*

    Hi I am an extrovert. I am an engineer. I have been giving feedback as a manager that I am very extroverted and expressive and emotional. My team is introverted and consists of older white men with less education than I have. I am much younger white woman. They are in dire need of changing as they have an exceptionally bad reputation which is warranted. Every time I provide feedback it does not go well. My manager blames me and my extroverted personality. Does anyone have any have any advice on how to be introverted.? There seems to be a plethora on introversion and leadership. Nothing on getting to be less extroverted. Thanks

    1. Business Librarian*

      However you’re ‘verted doesn’t matter, it’s how you act. I think you’ve got a problem, however, with your manager wanting to blame you for a deep-seated long-running issue. How long was it supposed to take to turn these people around? A couple of conversations? I would guess that if it’s going to happen at all you’re going to have to have calm conversations regarding the behaviors that spell out real consequences unless they change. If you don’t have real consequences you can use, then nothing will change no matter how you approach them. Was their last manager an older man? He couldn’t get it done. Blaming you for being extroverted is a dodge.

    2. ecnaseener*

      Why doesn’t the feedback go well? (In your opinion and in your manager’s opinion, if they differ.) Being “extroverted” isn’t enough information here (all it really means is that you’re energized by social interaction)…you also say you’re expressive and emotional, do you think those traits are contributing?

      Are you being really emphatic and passionate when giving feedback? If so, yeah that would make a lot of people uncomfortable. You want to give feedback calmly. Alison has written a ton about this and even dedicated a podcast episode to calm tone of voice… I’ll see if I can find it and put the link in a reply.

      Or is the problem that you’re being too chummy while giving feedback, and the message isn’t getting through? Alison has written a bunch about that as well.

      As Business Librarian says there’s no point in focusing on *being* introverted/extroverted, what matters is the behavior. Maybe rather than trying to pretend to be introverted like your team, it would help for you to think about their needs and communication styles. If they need clear, calm, direct communication with no pressure to meet you on an emotional level, then that’s what you should deliver.

    3. Observer*

      You don’t need to get less extroverted. You DO need to change your attitude, and probably your behavior.

      Focus on the specific behavior patterns that cause your team to earn the bad reputation. It’s not being “older white men” or even being introverted that’s causing their bad reputation. So don’t look in that direction.

      I find it telling that you don’t even mention what KINDS of behaviors are causing problems. Are they rude to people? Are they making mistakes? Refusing to do their jobs? What are they doing wrong, other than existing differently than you are.

      As for your extroversion, that’s not the issue. Again, the issue is behavior, and you should research that. But I would guess that part of the problem is you “expressive and emotional” presentation. Work on being less emotional in how you present things and work through issues. Read the kinds of verbiage Allison regularly posts here, for some good templates. In short:

      Describe the behaviors you are seeing briefly, clearly, factually and accurately. Don’t downplay them and don’t exaggerate. Leave your feelings (or anyone else’s for that matter) out of the picture.

      If it’s the first time you are having the conversation, explain the reasons why this is a problem and the negative impact it’s having. If it requires a change from what used to be acceptable acknowledge that. Again, keep it brief, factual, and accurate.

      Explain the behavior you want to see. Same drill as above. If you get feedback that it’s too difficult or people don’t know how to do what you are asking them to do, offer resources.

      If this is not the first time you are covering a specific issue, start outlining consequences. Those consequences should escalate as needed. Make sure the consequences make sense in your context. And make sure that your boss has your back on those consequences.

      There are no guarantees, of course. But this is really the only way you’re going to get a chance to see if your team is salvageable – and if you have what it takes to be a good manager.

  143. Athena*

    My manager, whose micromanagement is part of why I’m leaving the company, wants to review my farewell email and and recipient list before I send it. Is this normal?? I’m a senior employee who has been in the company longer than he has and I have a network of colleagues I am friendly with. I’m not excited by him looking over my shoulder as I write my tearful farewells.

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