open thread – August 6-7, 2021

by Alison Green on August 6, 2021

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. WonderMint*

    Would love some perspectives of those who made the jump from salaried to freelance.

    The past several months I’ve taken PTO from my salaried job to get ahead on freelance work (!!) It is my strong theory that if I network I could make about the same money freelancing, with the added benefit of flexibility, freedom and fulfillment. Any advice is welcome.

    Side note – This wouldn’t be a pivot, what I do salaried is in the same vein as what I do freelancing. My salaried job has no issue with me freelancing, so I’m not worried about retaliation at the moment. My boss initially recommended me to an associate of his which kickstarted my freelance career. I just can’t personally justify using PTO to work elsewhere.

    1. WonderMint*

      Side note to the side note – If you’re scratching your head wondering why on Earth would a company be okay with letting an employee freelance like this, know it is an open secret that our job is WEIRD. The pay and benefits are fabulous due to the cash cow of our parent company’s product (adult entertainment, which I do not work on directly) but management and business logistics have always been questionable.

    3. Callisto*

      I’ve never quit a FTP job to freelance, only used freelancing as a safety net during unemployment and as a side gig.

      That said, the general rule is to charge 40-60% more per hour than you would earn in FTP employment. This accounts for lack of health care, paying your own taxes, etc.

      Some things to consider: paying estimated taxes quarterly, investigating whether or not to create an LLC, creating templates for contracts and invoices, getting permission to use completed work as samples/references, setting up an online presence and making use of social in a professional manner.

    4. notacompetition*

      I left my FT job in September to do freelancing full-time. Same industry (marcomm). I’m inundated. I’ve had to turn away work! My advice for you:

      1. Save at least six months’ salary.
      2. Research retirement rollover/IRA options.
      3. Secure at least 1-2 retainers to start so you know you will be making X amount of money out of the gate.
      4. Talk to someone who can tell you about health care if you’re in the U.S. My health care premiums are more expensive now but it’s worth it to me. Really important to know before you make the leap.
      5. Once you’re out, let everyone know you’re freelancing. Tell your D&D group, your mom’s friends, your Uber driver, your professional network, your college alumni listserv, etc. You never know where you might pick up some work.

      2. FlightOfTheConcords*

        Congrats! And awesome! : )

        I did the reverse and left my long term freelance for FTE, but honestly……I’ll be back to freelancing in a year. I loved not dealing with office politics and there was so much gratification running my own business.

        Good advice about the retirement options, though. That’s one thing that I feel I really missed out on during my freelance years.

        And also great advice about charging what you’re worth.

      3. MissDisplaced*

        Yes on try to secure the monthly retainers.
        I’ve always had people ask my why I never started my own agency. This is why! I was never able to secure enough regular, ongoing work from 1-3 companies. I would also suggest those companies be as diversified as possible, to avoid putting “all your eggs in one basket” should one industry take a slump.

    5. LongtimeFreelancer*

      I did this and love it! Depends what kind of work you do but my top tips would be:
      –> to make sure to charge properly (so many freelancers start out asking for the same rate as they would want in a salaried job – yikes!). This article is a bit outdated amount-wise but good fundamental concepts: https://workischanging.ca/much-charge-pricing-tips-experienced-creative-freelancer/

      –> find established consultants/freelancers doing *complementary* services to yours and pitch yourself to them as a partnership. So, if you’re a copywriter, network with designers for example. If they like you, they’ll bring you into their projects or even introduce you to clients that you are a better fit for. Win-win.

      –> Get prospects on the phone as soon as possible. Doing business over email is not ideal, and makes it really hard to feel someone out. Also, don’t be afraid to ask something like “are you just shopping around right now, or do you have an idea of your budget for this project?” – people almost always answer this question, and it’s good info to have.

      –> It doesn’t have to be a formal contract each time, but follow up each call/verbal agreement with an email that puts all discussions in writing. Ask that the client reply to the emails confirming the information so you have a record of the agreement at that time. Also, be sure to get a deposit (50% upfront and 50% on completion is the standard in my industry) for all work.

      Those are my main tips! Good luck!

      1. LongtimeFreelancer*

        One other thing I just thought of – I would also recommend following some freelancers/experts in your field on Instagram/social media, if you’re a person who can get distracted by social media like me. My favourite is @jasminewilliamsmedia (she has some templates in particular that I’ve found really helpful) but there are lots of others depending what you do. I found having a feed filled with lots of like-minded entrepreneurs kept me motivated when I first started out.

      2. Lilly*

        My friend and I started doing marketing freelance work together mid-pandemic and partnering with complementary services has been vital. We work with several other agencies and our companies funnel work to each other constantly.

        Get yourself a lawyer and an accountant who specialize in small businesses right off the bat – we incorporated with the help of a lawyer, and we had to pay taxes two months after setting up shop. Both provided really reasonably priced services, with the understanding that we would be loyal and stay with them as we grew.

        If you’ve got a niche, embrace it. Flaunt it. Make it obvious on you profile / socials / website. We get comments all the time, “oh, you seem to deal a lot with pink petal painting on vintage teapots, interesting…It’s hard to find people in that space. We might have a client for you.”

        If people say, “oh you should chat with so and so!” Go chat with so and so, you never know where the conversation will go or what will come of it. We request a 15 minute video call, make up a list of questions (how they achieved success, their processes, recommended industry resources, what do they do) and just chat.

    6. Expiring Cat Memes*

      I went from a very demanding full time job to freelance. I was going through extreme burnout at the time and knew I couldn’t handle a crossover period doing both. I saved enough to allow myself a frugal lifestyle with 2 months off to recuperate plus 6 months to get my freelance work off the ground before *needing* an income.

      It takes time to build it up, and there will be seasonal ebbs and flows in work. Accepting that irregular income is part of the deal is important; if you can’t manage that expectation you’ll quit early and find another salaried job just as the freelance work gets traction. So a good financial buffer is important if you want to commit to it.

    7. Chc34*

      Figure out how much you should set aside for taxes, and every time you get paid, put that percentage of the money into a separate savings account immediately. Don’t even let yourself think of that money as yours!

    8. Sharon*

      Make sure your rates reflect all of your expenses, including taxes and insurance, and make sure you’re charging enough to cover non-billable time. For example, if you spend 3 hours on marketing yourself and billing for every hour you are working for a client, you have to figure that in. Keep great records of your business expenses, including mileage, postage, supplies, etc. It’s good to have a basic understanding of what is needed for tax records rather than wasting your time saving everything and paying an accountant to sort through a bunch of unnecessary paperwork.

      1. JT*

        HOW does one get that basic understanding of what is needed for tax records? That’s something I’ve started to hit a wall on.

        1. Sharon*

          I’d suggest asking for a meeting with whoever does your taxes. There are also a number of resources online (search freelancer tax records), but your accountant or tax pro should be able to help you customize a recordkeeping plan depending on your type of business, and explain the difference between personal and business expenses for things like meals, gifts and entertainment, home office space, and vehicles.

    9. Ghostwriter/Copywriter*

      I finally made the leap into full-time freelancing six years ago, after 10 years of doing it on the side. As you note, the flexibility, freedom, and fulfillment are wonderful! Not knowing your intended industry, role, or location, here are some general observations:

      –Earnings: While I do earn more than my previous salary, I now pay for healthcare, self-employment tax (ouch!), and all the expenses of running my own business. Understanding these costs helps me factor them into my rates.
      –Fluctuating income: My monthly income can vary wildly at times. Having a bigger cushion when I was starting out would have made this less stressful. If it’s possible in your field, structuring at least some work on a retainer basis helps even this out.
      –A contract: If you don’t already have a contract, spend some time (or consult an attorney) to draw one up tailored to the work you’re doing. Use it with every client, even if you know them well. I find my contract is most helpful in protecting against scope creep.
      –PITA clients: Lower-budget clients can be just as or more demanding of my time as high-budget projects. Trust your gut when considering whether to take on a new client. If you see red flags early — dickering on costs while insisting they need something ASAP, etc. — be prepared to walk away; such behavior rarely improves.
      –Increase rates: Review and raise your rates on a set date annually. Give yourself the raise you deserve! On occasion, I’ve used rate hikes as a way to jettison less-profitable clients or less satisfying work.
      –Network: in addition to networking with potential clients, build a network of other freelancers. Whenever I can’t take on new work, or when a client needs a freelancer with a different skill set, it’s nice to be able to refer them elsewhere.
      –Non-payment risk: Depending on a project’s size and my knowledge of the client, I limit my exposure to non-payment by getting a portion upfront, with further payments linked to deliverables/project milestones (with details in the contact).
      –Taxes: It took me five years to figure out that hiring an accountant to do my taxes would save time, stress, and money.

      1. FlightOfTheConcords*

        OMG yes, the low budget clients were THE WORST. So demanding, calling all hours of the day and night, super picky. I ended up not getting paid from a few for whom I did the whole website setup / development / design / everything and was in charge of their domains; I was honest in that if they weren’t going to pay me, their sites were not going to stay online. It’s amazing how quickly the checks came through when they realized that they weren’t getting all of my work for free.

    10. Nela*

      I’ve been a freelancer for 8 years now, I never regretted it, but the transition was quite stressful in my case. (I also remained in the same career.) From my experience, I’d recommend the following:

      Account for low season/lean months. Every industry has it, mine is usually in January and during summer months. Once I started expecting that, I stopped stressing over money.

      Embrace rush fees – that’s the freelance equivalent of overtime pay.

      If you don’t already have one, make a separate bank account for freelancing income, and transfer yourself a salary on your personal account. Pay all business expenses from your freelance account. Even if it’s only a pack of staples, it should not come out of your personal money.

      If your employer is open to part-time work, you can do that before you leave for good. If they value you, they’d probably like to keep you around for longer. That way you still have some stability as you’re building your freelance client list.

    11. ScreamingFlower*

      This thread has some great tips and advice. I am trying to pivot to freelance work as a virtual assistant. I am keeping my full time job for now until I am comfortable enough.

    12. New Mom*

      Is your current company open to allowing you to work 75%-80% (only if you want)? It might be worth asking if you enjoy your current job and the benefits but don’t want to work 100%. I had a coworker successfully negotiate down to 80% so she could keep her benefits and just take a 20% paycut.

    13. Jimmy Junior*

      Here’s my advice, as someone switching to a freelance industry that will NEVER pay as well as my current job. (For context, going from politics to private music instruction)

      1. There’s nothing wrong with easing into it, as long as you can find the time and head space you need for the freelance work. That means two sources of income, so I am a fan of stretching that out for as long as you like.
      2. Tax wise, I learned that I could ask my employer to withhold taxes equivalent to X extra income for the year – saving me the trouble of filing quarterly income taxes for my small business income while I keep my main job.
      3. Others’ advice on saving up an emergency fund is spot on.
      4. Charge the rates now that you will need to charge when you’re only freelancing – don’t lowball yourself because this is just for fun or because your early clients might heavily sample friends. Set the rates where you want them to be to support yourself long term.

    14. tab*

      I did it, and I haven’t regretted it at all. I do have a husband with a steady income and health insurance, so it was a very low risk move for me. I highly recommend taking advantage of the Small Business Development Center (SBDC) near you. I met with an advisor there monthly for two years, and it was extremely helpful. I also talked to friends who started there own businesses, which gave me insight. I formed my company as an S-corp, so my husband and I could both be owners, and we have an annual meeting wherever we want. (Typically San Francisco.) I used Legal Zoom for the incorporation paperwork, and GoDaddy for my website and email. It was much easier and less expensive than I expected to set it up. I’ve been working on my own since 2010, and I love it. Good luck!

      1. Freelance perhaps.....*

        Wow! This thread is so timely. My situation is exactly like yours and I have researched the SBDC in my area. It’s wonderful!! I haven’t yet contacted them, because I’m still in the process of figuring everything out. At what stage did you contact them? I don’t want to waste their time. So far I only have a website and I am still searching for my first client. I haven’t even set my rates. I have 2 part time jobs currently, one of which I just accepted.
        Thanks!

    15. Dancing Otter*

      Be sure your contract / letter of engagement includes a clear definition of project scope – scope creep is common, and you need a way to say, “No, that wasn’t included in our agreement. It will take X additional hours / cost $Y extra. Should we go ahead or not?” And then get a signed addendum to cover the extra.
      Be sure to include payment terms. No, Net 90 is NOT prompt payment. But some of the biggest companies will try to get away with it. And be prepared to stop work if progress payments are not made as agreed. You could be putting that time into clients that actually pay your invoices.
      Professional invoicing is also important. If client XYZ needs invoices electronically in a particular format for their payment process, that’s what you need to provide.

    16. Orb*

      Here’s a tip no one ever gave me and that I’ve never seen warnings about anywhere: Know that you can’t get a mortgage as a freelance/contract worker unless you’ve done it for, at minimum, two years, and ideally longer. But you will fully be unable to get a mortgage no matter how ideal of a lending candidate you are if you have not been doing your full time freelancing for less than two calendar years, and after only two your options will still be fewer. Even if you have a year behind you and have contracts from clients showing you have another year of $X, no dice.

      And if you think, ok, well, then I’ll get a normal W2 job again when I want to buy a house, guess what! They don’t like that, either. They’ll say your new regular employee job is yet again a new career that is unpredictable, and you can’t get a mortgage again for at least another year and ideally at least two.

      2. ReFi Freelancer*

        Ugh I’m in the middle of refinancing now having been a freelancer last year … wish me luck!! I’m hoping everything’s been so crazy with Covid that they’ll be a little more flexible. Or that ReFi is different. After all if I’m a bad mortgage debt, they’re already stuck with me as a client.

        1. Orb*

          Now that I have no idea about. I would imagine it’s different when you refinance, but that’s purely speculation.

          I can say that I just talked to some realtors again recently and they indicated that there was about a 0% chance of me getting a new mortgage at the moment because my spouse and I both had pandemic related job losses in industries that crumbled so we’re in different kinds of careers now. I didn’t bother to talk to any lenders because I believed them, based on my experiences trying to get a mortgage in the past few years as a freelancer. First it was that I hadn’t been freelancing long enough, then it was that the nature of my freelance work had changed somewhat, now it’s that my normal job that I got since the pandemic dried up my freelance clients is again different than what I was doing two years ago. Every time I’ve been told by plenty of different places that they won’t lend to me because they don’t think my income is stable enough, and the fact that I make good money consistently for many years doesn’t matter. Got stellar credit, only a little bit of the debt they like to see with a nice long history of paying towards it, big down payment cash, high income, only looking for the absolute cheapest houses in my city. No dice. Been trying to buy a house for six years! Can’t get financing.

    17. SummerBreeze*

      I did this. I…didn’t like it.

      I was very well paid in my corporate job, and honestly that was part of the problem. I was very used to knowing how much money was coming in each month and I found the transition to NOT knowing to be incredibly stressful. And even though I saved up a big cushion before making the leap (100k!) I found myself constantly worried about income. (I have kids, daycare costs, a mortgage in HCOL town, and my husband is self employed so our healthcare costs were insane) I spent way too much time trying to find clients.

      For certain fields (I’m in communications) I think a lot of people are used to the low rates they see on places like Fiverr, which meant I was turning down opportunities because they paid laughably low. I also for me, discovered that I much preferred to do work where I was fully immersed in the brand, which is hard to do as a consultant when you have limited contact with people inside the company.

      I lasted less than 2 years, and frankly it would have been shorter than that but the pandemic happened halfway through and for a hot minute there I was very grateful for my flexibility. But I’m back in FT now, back to making the salary I expected, and am MUCH less stressed!

      YMMV. But I always bristle when I hear folks encouraging people to go freelance. It’s not for everyone!

      1. ReFi Freelancer*

        I agree that comms and graphic art seems to be less lucrative than it may have been in the past.

      2. Nela*

        I’d never encourage someone who isn’t already very motivated try it, because of the unpredictable nature you mention. And yes lowballing in creative industries is quite common, so unless you have a serious edge, people don’t get why things should cost as much.

        It’s definitely not for everyone. I’d say freelancing is most suitable for people who feel “unemployable” – strong dislike of red tape and authority, prefers to work alone, has a lifestyle that’s hard to fit into the 9-5 schedule, etc.

  2. Company Software Overhaul*

    My company is doing an overhaul to centralize all data. Bits and bobs of different software across departments/countries will be replaced with standardized options that everyone shares. This will apply to sales, engineering, R&D, technical documentation, advertising and media, supply chain, and IT.

    Vague question that may be difficult to answer: has anyone been through this type of project, and how long did it take?

    Why I’m asking: I’m looking elsewhere for a senior role, but my skills are outdated. My choices are to teach myself on my own time, or to wait this out and hope I can learn on the job before making a jump. Estimating how long it will take to hit the ground running is the cornerstone of my decision. If this is going to take up to ~18 months, I would probably stay. If this is going to take multiple years, I could self-train faster. (No timelines have been given, it’s all very new and still being researched.)

    1. Anonymoose*

      I’m sure this probably varies, especially by private vs. public and whether you have a dedicated IT staff. As someone in public service in a department with one systems person. Our research to implementation took 6+ years working with the software company. We’re still working on making the one big system fully integrated with multiple databases.

    2. Super Duper Anon*

      Honestly, probably years. My company is doing something similar, but only centralizing HR functions. It took at least a year to get their centralized HRIS system up and running and they are still working on other projects. Their roadmap they presented was at least a couple years of work. If you are centralizing ALL functions, its going to take even longer. There are going to be multiple battles and customization for specific departments demanding things that may not be in the main software, etc. This kind of massive change always takes longer than you think.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Is this an ERP implementation? (SAP, Oracle ERP, Sage, etc?)

      If so, then depending on how big and complicated your business is, this could go on for years. It really depends on how large & complicated your operations are, from quite a few metrics: number of employees, number & complexity of product lines, do you sell one million $10 widgets or ten $1,000,000 widgets, how dependent you are on a complicated supply chain, whether your products and services fall under quality standards like ISO 9000 & 9001.

      It sounds like they haven’t even decided on a product yet – do they have consultants on board to help with product selection and implementation?

    4. Susan Calvin*

      Honestly, don’t wait either way. Unless you know for sure that the system you’re moving to is some kind of near-universal industry standard that your current company is basically the last bastion of not-using, I wouldn’t assume that learning that new system is going to give you any advantage in a new job, because they might use something entirely different (or a very different configuration of the same product). You’ll have to learn on your new job anyways, so why muddle it by trying to cram two different new things into your brain in quick succession?

    5. Iris Eyes*

      Well we started the process in 2016 and are still in the middle stages. So in my experience this is a years long transition.

      1. Another Annon*

        Same here. I thought by now at least the DOS based system would have been phased out, but 5 years later it is still around.

    6. Hiring Mgr*

      What skills are outdated that you’re hoping this project will level up? If this is all just still being researched (meaning you haven’t selected a vendor, etc.. ) i’d go with two years at minimum

    7. SoloKid*

      I did, and it took years and even then people had created “sub systems” withink the one option. e.g. one team uses one dashboard here, another uses another configured a certain way. Some teams had leaders not on board with the change so one product had to keep using the old system…it can be a mess if not everyone is on board.

      IMO you should learn on the job esp if it’s a fairly new software.

    8. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      It took 3 years for my org to update to a new Payroll software — there were rounds of testing and tweaks, renegotiating the contract to account for changes in scope, bringing in a third party to fix unexpected incompatibility issues, and running parallel for a few months to make sure nothing went awry. I imagine a project your size may take longer.

    9. Brett*

      I have been one of the critical people in this type of project. Centralizing enterprise data means that you can have experts specifically on data to manage it (data engineers and data stewards). The initial stage took about 18 months, but improvements have been ongoing for years now (since there are always new data requirements). Having software engineers who can build custom data APIs and data warehousing is critical to the effort though. A lot of places try to do this with third-party statements of work and commercial off the shelf software and it does not go so great. For commercial off the shelf, often licensing gets in the way where they could have been more successful hiring engineers and going open source.
      How your company is going to centralize data is probably key to the timing question. If they are hiring a company and using commercial off the shelf software, it will probably be ~12 months. If they are building internally and/or using open source, it will be longer. If they are building a data catalogue and developing appropriate metadata (they should) it will take longer. If not, it will be quick (and probably not go very well).

      Also, the fact that so many divisions are involved points to a multiyear effort. Normally you would want to role out division by division in phases for something like this.

      1. Brett*

        I should add that I did this for a major division rollout for a fortune 200 company, to get an idea of the scope I was part of.

    10. InsufficientlySubordinate*

      It depends somewhat on how big the company is/how old it is/how long people have been doing their own thing (how many parts are run by Excel spreadsheets and somebody’s written directions that have been photocopied 4 times). I’ve been involved in this sort of thing at both small and large companies, and I would say count on one year at minimum if it’s very organized (judging from you having a lot of technical data). Most of these projects are not well-organized or don’t have buy-in from various pockets in the company, especially if it’s a large company and require cultural buy-in. One large company I was at had been working at it for 2 years and probably had another 2 to go if all went well. A small company took a solid 6 months just to decide on a universal definition of Net Sales. My advice would be to go the self-train as it is very unlikely to be done in 18 months if they’re still researching.

      1. emmelemm*

        “A small company took a solid 6 months just to decide on a universal definition of Net Sales.”

        This is so unfortunately relatable to me.

    11. Wakeen Teapots, LTD*

      That sounds like five years to me from the senior management not a tech manager POV. We have an SAP implementation that we’re on year five of, last division on board hopefully end of year. (it might be year 6)

    12. Mr. Tyzik*

      Inhouse or third-party solution? Internal teams or vendor teams?

      Third-party, vendor teams are probably the shortest since they fix-bid based on delivery dates, but could still be 2-3 years. The other combinations will take longer, with Inhouse, internal probably being the longest (if ever completed). The cleanest platform change I worked on took a year of research and three years of implementation; another took 20+ years and is still in progress.

      I personally think learning on the job is better because you are practically applying the concepts as you learn them. Everyone is different. How do you think you would best learn given the amount of time you have?

    13. AnonymousHOU*

      My university is currently going through it’s second ERP-type implementation in the 7 years I’ve worked here. I am currently the subject matter expert in my department for both systems.

      The first was to centralize fundraising and marketing operations with a Blackbaud CRM, which is now stable but is continually being tweaked with new features and quirks 4 years later. Last month, we launched an Oracle Cloud product to cover everything else – budgeting, procurement, HR/hiring, appraisals, grant tracking, etc. It replaced like 10 different piecemeal systems, which is good, but the rollout has been rough.

      I’m unsure about your field, but my personal thinking is that the experience I gain working during these transitions is much more valuable than any self-training I could do on my own. I see it as a selling point not only on hard skills (knowing the quirks of different products and how to navigate them with real world examples), but also the very important skill of overseeing large-scale transitions, project management, and advocating for my team and department despite lacking formal authority.

      1. Wheezy Weasel*

        Agree – the best stories I have during my interviews relate to my on-the-ground experience in previous (usually flawed) implementations. I’ve only rarely been able to discuss something that I learned in a class or by myself.

    14. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      I’d say at least 2-3 years; a lot of the time will be analysing the existing stuff and how it can be applied to the new system, or how the new system can be customised to your applications.

      If you get a jump on teaching yourself this system could you be well positioned to ‘lead’ some of the migration process or be a subject matter expert? That could generate something resume-worthy.

    15. TooTiredToThink*

      Having worked both in the private and public sectors…. I am going to have to agree with everyone that this is likely to take a long time (more than 18 months) – especially if you don’t have a dedicated Project Manager overseeing everything and if the company is/isn’t putting money into additional resources.

    16. JQWADDLE*

      I went through this kind of transition at a CPG company. The initial plan for the project was 5 years with a phased deployment. There were some hiccups at some of the mill locations which caused later phase dates to be pushed out. It will probably be a 6-7 year project with the surprises/lessons learned from the earlier phases.

      It wasn’t a fun process. People were pulled from the team to be dedicated to the project. I got to support the legacy system and was doing the work previously shared by 3 people. The company was paying for us to get training, which I took, but between the additional work, 10 + hours of class a week and having a newborn, I got majorly burned out. You might not lose your mind like I did, but you probably should consider that your job might change a lot during the transition if you chose to stay and those changes could potentially make self study really difficult.

    17. Girasol*

      We did this. Some managers said “How hard can it be?” and set the deadline at four months. It took over two years, and that with the scope greatly reduced from the original plan so that the effort didn’t drag on forever. One of the problems that we faced is that each department that had a different format for the data, so (for example) one team had a long code string that was the part number, the color, and the size, while another had them separated. One had size to one decimal place while another had three. Different departments had category fields but their categorizations didn’t match. Several had “misc” fields that no one could explain but they were afraid to delete the data because it might be important. Some departments kept data others didn’t want or failed to maintain data that they did. So the effort involved not only standardizing the software, but getting everyone’s agreement on how to standardize the data itself. Then everyone’s different flavor for data recording had to be converted to the agreed-upon model and all the applications had to be rebuilt to use the new data format. In your case, of course, it will depend on the amount of data, the number of different department data models in use, the amount of variance in how different groups store and use the data, the amount of resources given to the project and so on, but it’s likely to be a bigger effort than people think at first glance.

    18. Office Pantomime*

      I run these types of projects and agree with others that depending on size it could take years. Much depends on focus and commitment from your org’s leaders. Can’t overstate that part. Haven’t seen anyone suggest this, but if you were to position yourself to take a key role on the project, you could raise your skill set and have a major achievement on your resume. I’ve seen several careers get catapulted forward from stepping up on major initiatives like this. Just a thought.

  3. Creatives*

    Those of you with side projects that relate to your career, how do you decide whether or not to integrate them into your day job (mention them on LinkedIn or other social, bring up successes in interviews, etc.)

    For example: copywriters who write fiction, music teachers who write jingles, graphic designers who paint/draw.

    1. RagingADHD*

      As soon as I started getting paid for the work by strangers, instead of just exchanging favors with friends or having stuff posted on free sites.

    2. Caboose*

      I have a portfolio website that I link on my resume (as in, an actual clickable hyperlink, not just the URL) and in my email signature. Doesn’t have to be super splashy, but it keeps things nicely organized and makes it easy for interviewers to look at.

    3. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I wouldn’t list any side projects, even paid, unless they were applicable to a new position I was applying for. If I’m a graphic designer applying for graphic design jobs, I won’t list painting/drawing unless a) the job asks for that skill set AND b) I want to use that skill set in the job, rather than keep it as a separate side project. For me, a professional graphic designer, I do several creative things on the side both as hobbies and sometimes paid, but they aren’t a career path I want to take or something that I want my employer to call on me to do for them (photography, sewing, jewelry).

      1. Mental Lentil*

        This is a really excellent point. We recently interviewed a person for role A, but he had a lot of experience in role B also listed on his resume, which is part of the reason we brought him in.

        During the interview, he repeatedly stated that he didn’t like doing role B and didn’t want to do role B. For the love of ramen, then why would you list that on your resume?

        The same is true of a portfolio. If you’re using it to get work, I’m going to assume that you’re willing to do everything you list there.

        1. Fran Fine*

          During the interview, he repeatedly stated that he didn’t like doing role B and didn’t want to do role B. For the love of ramen, then why would you list that on your resume?

          He probably doesn’t read here to know that your resume doesn’t have to be a complete listing of your work history, but rather a carefully curated marketing doc that shows your best accomplishments in the area(s) you hope to focus on in the new role.

    4. whoknows*

      I do mention some of my side projects in my resume, and will bring it up in interviews, or as appropriate at work.

      I don’t know that I think it’s appropriate to mention for every job and industry, but I think the individual can best answer whether it’s work related. For example, I work as a librarian, and my side projects are freelance nonfiction. Not really the same fields, but there’s enough demand for those skills within the scope of my day job that I feel justified in mentioning it as a strength. Basically, if it adds to your assets, rather than distracting from them, then mention it.

    5. SummerBreeze*

      I work in communications and have a side career as a traditionally published author and ghostwriter. I am open about my writing online — and my work! To me they interweave and demonstrate my talents in complementary ways. My Instagram is primarily book focused, my Twitter is a mix, my LI is primarily work but I absolutely post there when I win awards or have a cover release.

      I spent a lot of time stressing about how/whether to blend it all a few years ago and then made the active decision not to care and just do what I want :) 10/10 would recommend.

  4. HannahS*

    Has anyone successfully transitioned from one workplace culture to a very different one? What helped you make the shift?

    I have a friend who’s really struggling with transitioning from a process-oriented workplace with a polite, sophisticated style of communication to a faster-paced, less-structured workplace with a more aggressive, less emotionally-intelligent style of communication. From our many, many talks about it, I’m getting the sense that he’s still communicating and expecting to work in the way that he did before; it’s not working and he’s MISERABLE.

    There are definitely some very real issues contributing (covid burnout, one manager is genuinely a jerk), but to me as someone who already works in a fast-paced, unpredictable environment, some of the things he complains about are just different from what he’s used to. He often asks me for support and advice, and I think work would feel less terrible if he changed his own style and expectations a bit to align with the workplace culture. I do have some ideas based on specific anecdotes that he’s told me, but I’d like to hear from others on what was helpful for you in adjusting to working with less structure or a blunter style of communication.

    1. animaniactoo*

      This is not help with doing that – but a suggestion that he may not be able to adjust. If so, this is a culture fit issue for him in the truest sense of a culture fit.

      I work in a company that has gotten better over time, but nobody blinks when somebody says that working there isn’t for the faint of heart or that you have to be a certain kind of person to handle working there.

      1. InsufficientlySubordinate*

        Yeah, I worked in an industry like that, and I burnt out on it and won’t go back. Forcing myself to be a person who can deal with it, really didn’t work in the long run.

        1. Nesprin*

          Yep- the converse works as well. Going from fast paced, unpredictable scheduled, flat hierarchic institution that tolerates brusque communication in the pursuit of greater efficiency to a institution where polite and sophisticated communication and process dominate is literally just as miserable.

          Am burning out on having to manage my coworkers feelings instead of my work.

    2. Smithy*

      This doesn’t address the lack of structure – but I can speak to having a job in an environment where the style of communication was far more blunt, aggressive, etc than I was used to. I was working in a country outside the US already known for having a more aggressive style of communication and in an office that even by that standard was tough with the additional of unprofessional anywhere styles of yelling.

      With the issue being two fold, the first being a different cultural style plus jerkiness initially I received a lot of advice that I would do better if I adjusted my style and I at first heard that as needing to mirror the style of boss. I was actually far more unhappy trying to match that aggressive style than I was knowing that my more polite/nice style irritated her.

      Where I did find success in changing my approach was in emails/written communication. First, I had more opportunities to review/reflect on my writing as opposed to how I reacted in the moment during a conversation. Second, I found ways for my writing to be shorter and more terse that still felt like me. Shifting an email to a list of bullet points worked with the style, but I also saw the professional benefit for that job and beyond.

      Ultimately, my lesson was to focus on shifts that fit the culture but also fit myself. If I was going to expend some professional capital by not yelling back at my boss, but it ultimately made me much happier – that was worth it. But it was a choice I made proactively.

    3. Mynona*

      Just try to help him see it as an issue of different office cultures.

      I moved from a supportive, flat/non-hierarchical office with progressive management to a hierarchical dinosaur from out of a time capsule. All the behaviors that benefitted me in my old office–contributing ideas in meetings–are negatives now. Realizing that helped me adapt and made day to day work less upsetting. Obviously, I still don’t like my office, but my field is really competitive so learning to make do with bad management is an important skill.

    4. AuroraPickle*

      Imagine the workplace culture as a person you’re getting to know. That person has a very different communication style but the intentions are there. You listen and adjust your style to meet their needs and when they listen put some of your own out there and eventually, at the end of the day, decide are you going to work together or are you not going to bother?

      The key point is to focus on intention behind communication rather than being reactive to the perceived impact.

    5. EngineerDE*

      I am struggling with exactly the opposite! I worked in manufacturing for 12 years and it was hectic, everything was urgent, and successful people tended to be aggressive. I made a switch to corporate R&D, where we’re all quiet in our labs and cubicles, everyone is so polite and supportive and decisions are generally made through discussion. I’m still making the shift. Partly I think that it just takes time and patience, but also a commitment to make it work. Does he really want to make it work? Also, when I worked in manufacturing I ended up creating a lot of the structure for a variety of reasons, but I had a role where that was possible but not required. That might work for your friend if he decides to stick it out. In my current, quiet job, everyone is so friendly and supportive including my manager I feel grateful to work here.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Ugh. Expecting Company #2 to run the same way Company #1 ran is a real job killer. And it can really tick off the people at the new job.

      You are indicating that you have had many talks about it. For yourself, decide how much more of this talking you want to do. This will help you figure out what you want to say and it may impact how you deliver the message.

      I think the number one thing that has helped me to shift with the new employer is my own willingness to change and adapt. Has he changed jobs before? How did that go?

      Another question I ponder is how much do I want the job? Yeah, most people need to work but that is different from wanting a particular job.

      I am kind of skeptical because he views their style of communication as “less emotionally intelligent”. Using myself as an example, if I start thinking this way, I scold me and remind myself that because I see the problem that means I can take steps to be part of the solution to my own problem. You might explain to him this is who they are and it is up to him to find in-roads on communicating with them, IN SPITE of this concern.

      Actually I prefer a blunter style of communication after having experienced it. I don’t mind read and I don’t do that great with “hints”. (Grr, I really dislike that word.) I found it a lot less stressful if people just say what they mean or what they want.

      How long has he been at the job? If he is unwilling to change then his workplace is going to be misery until he leaves. It’s his choice in the end.

      1. allathian*

        Yes, this. I like direct communication where I don’t have to softpedal to get my point across, but then I’m also fairly senior in my IC role. This doesn’t mean that it would be acceptable for me to yell at or insult other people when they make my work more difficult than it needs to be.

    7. Anonymous Koala*

      Honestly I think the only thing to do is accept that the culture is different and mentally gear yourself up for it. It sounds like your friend has some internal work to do – really asking himself if he wants to continue with this job, and if he does, committing to engaging with the company culture without judging it. Also since the work is faster paced, detailed checklists for some of the common processes might help. That way he won’t have to rely on memory when he’s switching gears quickly, and things will be less likely to fall through the cracks. (Not that things are falling through the cracks now, but as someone who prefers slower cultures myself, the anxiety from quickly shifting demands is real.) Making the lists is more work up front but it pays off later.

    8. Rhymetime*

      I was previously in this situation. I worked hard to change my expectations and adapt, and I gave it time to see how things would go when a new manager was brought on. I talked with our HR director, who was supportive, about how I could do my best work. Like your friend, I was me who was complaining to my friends about how miserable I was at work.

      After two and a half years of trying, I realized that I would never be happy there because I wasn’t the right fit for the place, and decided to find a new job. That was freeing, knowing that I had done my best to make it work. Six months later I found a new position that was a better match for me. If your friend has given it time and done what he can to adapt and it’s still not working for him, it could be time to leave.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        Yes, sometimes you can’t fit no matter how hard you try.
        I’ve come to realize I hate working in a huge matrixed organization where you have to go through 5 departments to get even the simplest thing accomplished.
        I came from companies with flatter structures, and a lot more DIY hands-on duties.

        After 3 years I’ve realized I will probably never adjust or fit into the matrix. Sadly, it’s hard to even say you have any real accomplishments there, because you are literally forced to hand projects over to other teams for execution. And if those teams don’t give a shit, they will execute poorly and you can’t do a damn thing about it! Basically, you become a project manager, not a problem solver.

    9. DataScientist*

      You can’t change culture as an outsider so if he is making zero effort to conform to some of the norms of that team then he will continue to be miserable. I completely agree with the person who suggested finding ways to assimilate to the new culture that still feel natural to them. Observing people who seem to do well & modifying/adapting their behavior to fit his personality can be a good start.
      We have had a couple of people move on from our team because the fit wasn’t right and they could not adapt. One person complained about the team being rigid and not trying new things because they would not adapt to his methods…meanwhile all suggestions to adapt his method were met with blank stares and a regurgitation of why his method is the right one.

    10. Marketing*

      I lasted about a year before I began job searching for the polite, process oriented corporate culture I’d left. I found the drama and blunt personalities draining. Some people just do better in a larger, more orderly organization, and that’s OK!

    11. BayCay*

      I went the opposite way; I went from a fast-paced culture of terror to one that is driven but not panicky and everyone is treated like an actual human being. Being in a toxic workplace can really mess up your expectations with workplace culture and I know that it took me a long time to adjust again to a healthy environment where I wasn’t afraid on a regular basis.

  5. SlimeKnight*

    I have a Zoom interview next week in state government. I’m a male and usually I would wear a suit and tie. Should I still wear a suit a tie? Or would it would be weird to do that?

    1. State Worker*

      I work in a State government office – I would like to see a solid color shirt with a tie, no jacket necessary.

      1. Paris Geller*

        This is about what I would expect to see where I work (local government), but a suit definitely wouldn’t be weird or too formal.

    2. Littorally*

      I would do it. Treating a Zoom interview as formally as a face-to-face interview cannot hurt, especially for government.

    3. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I think you should wear what you normally wear, especially in government. A suit and tie sounds very normal for a Zoom interview. I would do a camera check before your interview just to make sure everything shows up correctly on screen.

    4. Sangamo Girl*

      I sit in interview panels for technical positions for state government. I wouldn’t find a suit weird at all.

    6. CatCat*

      If a suit and tie is normally expected in interviews in your line of work, it would not be weird to wear that on a Zoom interview (but it might be weird if you DON’T). I don’t think the fact that it’s government makes a difference. I’m in law and government and it would be weird if I were not formally professionally attired during an interview, even a video one.

    7. A Simple Narwhal*

      I don’t think it would be weird at all – I’ve run a few remote interviews, most (if not all) of the interviewees dressed as they normally would for a regular in-person interview.

    8. The Dude Abides*

      No, it would not be weird.

      It would (probably) be very weird coming to work in one, but for an interview you should be good.

    9. Spreadsheet Enthusiast*

      I’ve gone through a few interview for federal positions lately, and I wore a white button up with a tie every time. I considered a suit jacket/blazer but decided against it for no reason other than I thought it would look too stuffy in what was clearly the living room of my apartment.

      Re: Zoom interviews, I would double/triple check your all settings before the interview. I had one interview that followed a game night with friends,, and, despite checking the video framing and sound settings, I failed to catch that my display name still set to “John is stinky” as a devastating insult to a friend until my interviewer named John asked about it…

      4. Purple Cat*

        Oh no. This is so, so funny. But I feel awful it happened to you. What did the person say??

        1. Spreadsheet Enthusiast*

          Thankfully they understood, and we had a good laugh about it. It might’ve even helped break the ice a bit because the rest of the interview felt very comfortable (how could it get any worse??), and I’m assuming it didn’t hurt my candidacy too much because they asked for a follow up interview the next day!

    10. Unkempt Flatware*

      I work in state government in C-suite management. A suit and tie would be expected for hiring one of my peers, would not be considered odd for hiring one of my staff (but a shirt and slacks would be fine as well), and would be odd if hiring for street-level bureaucrat jobs.

    12. Fed*

      I do interviews on the Federal Level, if someone is not in a suit and tie (for men, suit for women) they don’t get interviewed, that’s in person and virtual. I also have then stand up. They are told to be in a suit and we wear suits ALOT!

      1. Unkempt Flatware*

        Wow. I would feel so gross if someone asked me to stand up and show myself in a virtual interview. So gross that I probably would not and end it there. Is that what you meant by, “I also have then stand up”? How do you feel when you ask that question?

        1. Venus*

          It depends on the job, right? It sounds like Fed lives in a suit, to the extent that they mention it to prep for the interview, and it would not be my workplace style but I think it is reasonable if it suits the job.

          1. Unkempt Flatware*

            I’m not balking at the suit. I’m balking at the “now stand up and really show me you’re in a suit” in virtual interviews.

    14. MissDisplaced*

      It does not hurt to wear a suit! Plus, it puts you in the interview mindset.
      But you’d probably also be ok without the suit jacket as it is summertime. So at minimum a solid long sleeve dress shirt and tie.

    15. ChattyAli*

      I work in state government in the judicial branch in a red state. A suit and tie is still very much standard for interviews.

    16. LANbeforetime*

      A suit won’t be odd but I also probably wouldn’t blink at a nice button down shirt, no jacket.

  6. Lost Horizons*

    Has anyone worked in assisted living or a nursing home and had a good experience? Particularly on the admin side? I previously worked in a skilled nursing facility and didn’t have the best experience, but a job opportunity as assistant administrator at an assisted living cropped up and I’m tempted. It would give me an opportunity to work with some of my fabulous former co-workers and would, I assume, set me up for future opportunities in the industry. Still, while I’m sure I could be great at the job, I’m not sure I want to go for it if it’s going to be as demanding and stressful as my experience at the SNF.

    I’m hesitant because my previous experience in the medical field was for a company that was constantly overloading us with more work than a human could accomplish in a day, provided such an insufficient budget that it was impossible to maintain the building and run an office with that amount, and they turned a blind eye to horrible management that included yelling at employees, denying PTO requests with no justification, and, in the case of one department manager, coming to work with COVID symptoms and infecting other employees. Needless to say, I was not impressed by the experience and found it very stressful. Particularly the time we were out of copy paper for nearly two weeks because it wasn’t in the budget to buy more. Or the time our time clock broke and, rather than buy a new one, the company wasted time trying to find a replacement at another building so I had to manually enter 120 employees’ punches for nearly a month until they broke down and bought a new one. I’m exhausted just remembering how demanding that job was, and much of that happened before we even got into COVID!

    My other hesitancy is that it seems like the company sees this as a feeder role for administrator/executive director of the facility. I’ve never been particularly ambitious career-wise and I value my work-life balance. A position like that seems like something where I’d be on call 24/7. While I would prefer more meaningful work than admin in a manufacturing company, I’m not sure that assisted living is the right fit either. Can anyone share your experience in the industry?

    1. Hellllloo*

      I worked in a similar setting as an administrative assistant and really enjoyed it, but left due to the lack of progression. The org I worked for really committed to providing great care and made sure this was shown through recruitment – I’d run from any company that doesn’t screen you carefully, even if they’re desperate for staff. Also, see what government ratings say and look at any inspection records you can access publicly.
      You mentioned on call but generally this is only for managers and some senior carer staff

      1. Lost Horizons*

        Thanks for your insight! This actually would be a managerial role as the assistant administrator, and the role they ultimately want me to move into would be the administrator of the whole building. I’m not sure that’s a path I’m keen to go down since it seems like the kind of role you never get a break from.

    2. Anastasia Beaverhousen*

      I worked on the management side of a SNF and I think the question is “is a for profit or a non-profit organization”? If it is for profit the focus will be on the all-mighty dollar over the expense of employees and residents. The for profit SNF’s are notorious for running a place into the ground, selling, and then moving to the next organization to purchase. Rinse and repeat. Non-profits are a little better and here I think the biggest factor is the head administrator’s and the boards approach. I worked at a non-profit where the Admin wanted to run it as a for profit. It was the worst 5 years of my career and I would never go back to SNF work for any amount of money.

      1. Lost Horizons*

        Thanks! That pretty much confirms what I suspected about the industry in general. The SNF I worked for was very much for profit, and it showed in so many of their patient care decisions and employee safety procedures during COVID. I was not impressed by any of that, but secretly hoped assisted living might be different. Alas, the company I’m considering is indeed for profit.

    3. The Director of Weird Stuff*

      Oooh, an AAM post I can actually reply to (long-time reader, first time commenter). My apologies for the length of the following; I work in the field, it is great, and there are lots of things to consider in terms of stress/work-life balance.

      For background, I work in fundraising for a nonprofit Life Plan Community that has independent senior living, assisted living, memory support, short-term rehab and long-term skilled nursing. I started as an executive assistant to the director of independent and assisted living, and my current role is campus-wide.

      One thing to keep in mind is that AL licensure is governed by the states. Because AL typically can’t accept Medicare/Medicaid (there are some exceptions), the Center for Medicaid Services has no jurisdiction. This means that in my state at least, AL requirements are less stressful than skilled nursing requirements. There are regular surveys and they do want to be sure that you’re complying with regulations, but there are fewer regulations and the entire model is less adversarial. Your focus will likely be more on providing an overall excellent experience for the residents and less on ensuring compliance with a huge amount of regulations.*

      In terms of work/life balance, our director of independent and assisted living is usually able to present for kids’ school performances, etc., and she takes a couple of weeks of vacation most years. The past year was of course an exception; everyone was working long hours, and there were a lot more questions from residents and families to field, due to all the COVID restrictions. Now that things have settled down somewhat, I’m sure she works in the evenings and on weekends, but she does make an effort and I believe achieves a healthy work/life balance most of the time. Our organization really tries to support this for everybody, though, so I am sure it is different elsewhere. You would want to pay close attention to the culture surrounding this at all levels of the organization.

      That said, there are some very stressful aspects to the work. For one thing, even in our restriction-averse state and in AL, COVID has dramatically affected operations. Though nearly all of our residents are vaccinated, one case in a staff member means we have to shut down group dining and group activities for two weeks–we just came off two weeks of this. The director has to make this decision and the announcement, field resident/family inquiries, and help team leads like recreation and dining adjust operations on the fly. Second, staffing was a major issue even before the pandemic, and it is reaching a critical stage in the industry generally. If you are short-staffed, you have to limit the number of residents you admit, which can lead to budgetary issues. If you are getting pressure from above to admit even if you don’t have the staff to support admissions, you will be caught between a corporate rock and a miserable staff hard place. That sounds horrid to me, and I would want to ask a lot of questions about what ownership is like and also what the precise staffing challenges are in your area.

      One other thing and then I’ll stop: the size of the community matters. If it’s big enough that there’s a marketing director who does sales, a nursing director who supervises the CNAs, a recreation director for activities, etc., then you will be able to focus on big-picture issues and smooth running of the community. In some smaller communities, the administrator handles sales and has much closer oversight of all functions. So, you want to get a sense of how many hats you’d wear and how that fits your preferences.

      *I don’t want to suggest that these regulations are not necessary–just that my observations suggest that the highly regulated environment of skilled nursing can create a lot of stress, especially if you as the administrator have responsibility for ensuring compliance but not a lot of power to make changes or less than strong support from your leaders in nursing, dining, etc.

      1. Lost Horizons*

        I really appreciate your thorough answer! I also like hearing that someone has had a positive experience in the industry. You’ve given me a lot of good topics to discuss with them that hadn’t even occurred to me. Particularly the part about whether there are departmental leads to handle the individual functions of the community, or if that would fall on upper management. Lots of great info here so I thank you for the time and effort you put into responding!

    4. elle*

      Everything I hear from my friends and neighbors who all work in nursing home care from LPN to RN to management is that they are incredibly short-staffed and burned out right now. They just cannot keep the jobs filled resulting in unbelievable amounts of overtime unfortunately.

  7. EngGirl*

    About to give a performance review to someone who does really good work but has a punctuality problem
    (Before anyone asks yes it matters in this job). Wish me luck!

    1. Ozzie*

      Good luck!!! Hopefully they’re receptive to that one point of needs-improvement. The fact that they do good work otherwise will hopefully soften the blow!

      1. EngGirl*

        It actually went really well! They kind of already new and they’re a newer employee so they’re still finding their feet. But they were receptive so that’s a win in my book

        1. Distracted Librarian*

          Good for you for addressing it right away, so the employee can correct the behavior before it (and their reputation) becomes too established.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      If this is really the case, then you need to enforce the consequences if it’s broken too. I’m not saying not to give them a chance to fix it, but at some point it’s got to be like 3 strikes and fired.

      Harsh, but some jobs do require a punctual person to be there on or before time. It’s not the job for some people whose lives seem to run habitually late.

  8. Little Lobster*

    How do you deal with disappointment in a job that initially seemed like a dream come true?

    I was laid off from my last job, Job A, in April 2020 due to covid. I was a Lead Llama Whisperer. In many ways, that job was a nightmare. But in many other ways, it was a dream. The company was a dysfunctional mess, but I LOVED the work I did. It was exciting, it felt like it mattered, and I was really, really good at it. I was absolutely a rock star in that job, and it felt great to do great work.

    After I was laid off, I fell into a pretty deep depression. For a variety of very real reasons, I knew I’d never have another job like Job A. So I lowered my expectations by a lot, and started looking for Llama Groomer jobs.

    After over a year of being unemployed and applying to everything like crazy, I found a Llama Groomer position with Job B, working under the Senior Llama Groomer. Throughout the interviews, I liked them a lot. The company was decidedly NOT a mess. My interviewers were really intrigued by my background as a Lead Llama Whisperer, and after 3 interviews they offered me a dual role as a Llama Groomer AND Lead Llama Whisperer. My title would be Lead Llama Whisperer. I was elated. I knew there would be a lot of Llama Groomer work involved, but I figured that would balance out with the Lead Llama Whisperer work.

    And then the actual offer came. It was bad. Low salary, low PTO, no perks. I negotiated my salary up to what I was making at Job A, but I felt weird about the whole thing. However, I didn’t have the choice to not accept. I’d been unemployed for well over a year at that point, and I had no other offers. I accepted the offer, and started 5 weeks ago.

    It’s been really disappointing. There has been no Lead Llama Whisperer work. There’s such a glut of Llama Groomer work that it takes up 100% of my time, and that’s not going to change. The Senior Llama Groomer seems like she feels threatened by my title. I rarely get the information I need to do the Llama Groomer work, no matter how much I pry, so everyone seems disappointed in my work, and I have to re-do it.

    I just feel really beaten down. After the last year, I was desperately hoping this job would turn out great, and so far it hasn’t. I know it’s only been 5 weeks, but I wake up every morning dreading coming into work, and after spending all of my 20s in jobs that made me feel that way, and after spending 2 years at Job A where I loved going into work, I was hoping that part of my life was over. I’m in my mid-30s, I don’t want to waste my life feeling like that anymore! Also, I still feel really weird about the offer. Job B is really great culturally, they’ve put a lot of work into making this a highly functional workplace and it shows. But the work itself is beating me down.

    (I actually wasn’t doing nothing for the last year. I was doing freelance Llama Groomer stuff. There wasn’t enough work to make anywhere near what I’d been making at Job A, so I never considered going all-in on freelance. But, I realized that I loved working from home. Something about the vibe and lighting in offices gives me daily headaches. I was taking ibuprofen everyday at Job A, and after I was laid off I never got headaches. Now that I’m back in the office at Job B, I’m back to taking ibuprofen everyday. I hate it. I loved working from home. Job B is not chill with remote work.)

    I obviously can’t quit, so now what? How do I deal with the disappointment and frustration? The thought of spending 2 or more years here before I can start looking for something else makes me feel panicked. I don’t want to be a trouble-maker, and I really am thankful for any job after a year of unemployment, so I don’t want to talk to my boss about how I’m feeling. At this point, I’d rather just mask how I feel and keep my head down. But I don’t know how to deal with the disappointment and dread.

    Any advice is really appreciated!

    1. not a doctor*

      Start looking elsewhere now! Who says you have to wait? You’re not going to look like a job-hopper if you have a solid work history, and this is clearly a bad fit.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        This–you don’t have to wait. Plus (and this sucks) it’s easier to find a job when you have a job.

      2. Wilbur*

        “Why did you leave your last job?”
        “It was pitched as mongoose shouting and mongoose grooming, but turned out just to be grooming. I’m looking for a role that involves more shouting at mongeese.”
        It’s a 100% acceptable reason to leave a job, and you should feel fine about leaving. Start looking, everything is fine.

      3. Luna*

        Or you could leave them out completely. As a hiring manager, I’m pretty much wiping out all of 2020 when doing interviews.

      4. Fran Fine*

        I agree with the start looking now advice. Your job search may take longer than usual, so it doesn’t hurt to get a jump on things (but I hope you can get out soon!).

    2. Ozzie*

      I think it’s notable that you recognized early that it’s not a good fit, so you don’t end up stuck there. I do want to ask though, as someone who has struggled with depression their entire adult life – is that coloring your perspective at all? I’m not saying Job B isn’t for you – both might be true at the same time (and often are). I’ve just found that very often, depression makes things that are bad but manageable, totally unmanageable. Are you seeing a therapist to work on your depression?

      I would recommend seeking professional guidance first and foremost, if you’re not already – depression just puts a black cloud over everything, and when something is already not great, it just makes it worse and harder to deal with. Then, I’m not so sure it would necessarily be a BAD thing to continue looking for jobs on the side – while it’s obviously ideal to be at a place for 2 years before going elsewhere, if you’re truly unhappy there, is that something that should really hold you back? I’m not so sure the benefit of 2 years on a resume outweighs… literally all the rest of the bad. If you know a place isn’t right, it’s not right.

      In the mean time, hopefully dealing with and treating your depression will make things a bit more bearable. (it will also likely make job hunting easier, since I find that it makes already difficult tasks feel completely and utterly insurmountable) It’s ok to be disappointed. It’s also ok to stay somewhere because you need the money.

      Also, is there anything keeping you from building up your freelancing business on the side? If not, that’s also an option, so that you could perhaps transition away from working for someone else entirely. (or, if you have the savings, devote your energy there entirely – but I know that’s easier said than done, especially now)

      1. Little Lobster*

        There’s definitely something to your idea about depression. I think that’s making the situation worse. I cannot currently see a therapist because I haven’t accumulated any sick leave yet. I desperately want to see a therapist, though. There’s just always some reason (leave, no insurance, etc) that I haven’t been able to for the past year.

          1. Fran Fine*

            I co-sign teletherapy. I work from home full time and do my appointments either over the phone or online, usually toward the end of my work day, and it’s so convenient. I will never visit a therapist’s office in person again if I can help it.

        2. Ozzie*

          VERY relatable. I’ve looked to tele-therapy, as MissGirl mentioned, maybe that’s an option? (I also have not been able to convince my brain to do so, so I get it. But it’s something to look into to see if it’s right for you!)

          You’re not alone in this struggle Little Lobster, for what it is worth. Be kind to yourself! (but also definitely keep that job hunt going!)

        3. Time’s Thief*

          Seconding MissGirl’s plug for teletherapy. I meet with mine over zoom and it’s been so nice that I want to stay online even once she’s doing in-person again. It’s so much easier to find the time when I only need to close my door.

      2. Little Lobster*

        Yes, depression is definitely a factor. Unfortunately I can’t see a therapist right now because I haven’t accumulated any sick leave. I desperately want to, though, I know it would help.

        1. Working Hypothesis*

          There are therapists who work via Zoom call and are available on weekends or after business hours. You are very likely to be able to find one who will see you at a time when your work doesn’t expect your presence.

    3. Smithy*

      Definitely start applying now. You have the title of Lead Llama Whisperer and are currently only doing llama grooming work, so for any interviews you get – you can always explain why you’re looking is because you had hoped your position would be X% Llama Whispering but due to the massive Grooming needs – you have no time to do any of it. There’s no need to flag any of the other issues.

      It may be that you don’t necessarily get the all of the interviews you’d want, but I would not get sucked into a trap that says you *have* to stay for two years before you can start applying.

    4. Happy*

      This is totally happening to me right now. I left a job because of really bad COVID protocol (they said all the right things but forced me to get a babysitter during COVID) I left for another job where they rehired the person I replaced so I had no choice but to look landed another job that I researched very well and turns out their COVID policy is not much better. Also struggling with what to do.

      1. Little Lobster*

        I’m really sorry to hear that. Cases are really ramping up in my state, and so far my new employer has been totally silent about it. Not sure what to do about that, either.

    5. animaniactoo*

      You can keep looking for another job – you can’t quit with nothing lined up, I understand that – but it doesn’t mean you can’t get a head start on lining something else up.

      But – you can also hit your manager up and be specific: “I’m encountering some issues that I need to resolve to be successful here. I’m not getting information needed to do projects/the job correctly, even when I have explicitly asked, so I’m constantly needing to redo things. And my understanding is that there would be a significant amount of Llama Whispering work, but so far there hasn’t been any. When will I be able to focus on doing some of that work? It’s important to me as something that I enjoy doing and understood would be part of this job.”

      1. Product Person*

        What animaniactoo said! I’d talk to your manager first about not being given the info you need to complete the work correctly the first time, and wait to address the issue of lack of your preferred task later.

        Even if for now you don’t get to do the job you like the most, the fact that you title mentions it is useful, making it easier down the road to have your resume noticed for future openings in that field. And the first step to find time to start doing more of what you like is to stop redoing work because you didn’t have enough information.

        I’d focus on solving this problem first, and wait to talk about start doing your preferred work AFTER you have successfully addressed this big issue that 1) is impacting your productivity and 2) your manager is the best person to solve.

    6. Camellia*

      You say, “I rarely get the information I need to do the Llama Groomer work”. I think you could focus on this, using one of the many scripts that Alison supplies when bringing up issues that are preventing you from doing your job. It sounds like you could do the job very well if you had the info you needed, so if you could get them to open the info pipeline, maybe that would help.

    7. CatCat*

      Agreeing with “not a doctor” that there’s no reason not to keep your job search going, even though that feels really demoralizing to have to do!

      There are a couple of things you can address while still there. You say, ” I rarely get the information I need to do the Llama Groomer work…” I would tackle that one head on with my manager. Really, just put it out there, “I have found that I am not getting all the information needed, like X, Y, and Z, to successfully complete the Llama Groomer work. Where should I be getting the information from?” Maybe there is a resource that they have neglected to tell you about (in my experience, people take what they know for granted… I was a year into a job before I even knew a certain resource manual existed that would have been super helpful for me).

      The second thing to address are the headaches. Talk to your doctor about that to verify if lighting could be the cause. I have had colleagues who get headaches triggered by fluorescent lights. It turned out this was relatively easy for employers to accommodate by removing some or all the overhead bulbs over the effected employee’s work area and setting up desk lamps. I don’t know if that will resolve your headache issue, but could be worth looking into.

      I’m sorry it has turned out like this for you and I hope it gets better!

      1. Autumn*

        There’s a lot than cause fluorescent lights to flicker at speeds that cannot be seen by the naked eye but that can cause wicked headaches nonetheless. Some people are even sensitive to fluorescent light functioning normally. For me, an old, about to fail tube or a failing ballast can bring on a migraine. Yet other people notice nothing.

    8. korangeen*

      Oof, that sounds really rough. As not a doctor said, you definitely don’t have to wait to look for jobs again! If you manage to find something that’s a better fit, I doubt anyone would fault you for leaving Job B. In the meantime, you can take some pleasure in having a reliable full-time income again (congrats by the way on negotiating the salary up to Job A level!) and continue trying to make B work. You say it’s a highly functional workplace, so have you been able to have a conversation with your manager(s) about why the work is so different from what they told you it would be during the interviews? Why would they give you a llama whispering title with no llama whispering work, and how come you’re not getting enough info to effectively do the llama grooming work? (If they’re not able to reconcile this, then it really doesn’t sound like a highly functional workplace…) The work may or may not get better, but perhaps the disappointment and dread can be dulled with the knowledge that you’re still actively looking elsewhere and that at least you don’t currently have to worry about money. The office lights and headaches suck though.

    9. Moonbeams*

      I would definitely start looking for another job.

      In the meantime, would it be possible to have a conversation with your boss about what the priorities of your position should be? The reason I ask is because I was in a similar position for a while–I was hired because of my expertise in X and was responsible for several areas, but one of the areas required so much attention that it took up most of my time. It was an area that didn’t require much skill or education to manage, and had frequent emergencies that couldn’t be ignored.

      I toughed it out for a year, but then I talked to my boss and found that she didn’t realize how much time of my time was being taken up by these tasks. She definitely wanted me to focus on my area of expertise, so she reassigned the lower level things to someone else. It made me feel a lot better about my job, because not only did I hate that part of it, I felt guilty about neglecting the other areas that were a better fit for my qualifications.

    10. Dust Bunny*

      Keep looking.

      I have to be honest–I would take the fact that they offered you the dual role later as kind of a red flag that they probably weren’t going to prioritize it and that you’d mostly get sucked into llama grooming. My experience with situations like that is that the first job is their priority and the second is a cool idea but not one they’re likely to make a reality.

    11. beach read*

      Have you considered an employment agency? I’ve had good experiences with them. I felt like my representative really took time to get to know me and the skills and experience I had to offer. I was able to clearly state what I was looking for and then they matched me up with their client who had a great temp opportunity that was not exactly my experience but within the same industry. Most temp jobs have an expiration date, but many lead to full time employment. I also found that I was interviewing for positions that would never be found posted on a job board so in that way I was lucky.

  9. Sammy*

    I’ve been asked to join a few interview panels for new hires. I’m not the decision maker, just one opinion in a group of four and the lowest opinion since I’m the newest. I’ve never been on this side of the table for interviews before, any tips?

    1. Putting the "pro" in "procrastinate"*

      Think about two or three skills that are really necessary to be successful in the job — if you’re going to be this person’s teammate, think about what skills you would like them to have that would make your life easier — and come up with behavioral questions that encourage them to give specific examples illustrating those skills. For instance, if collaboration is important, you could ask, “Tell me about a time you collaborated with a colleague on a project. What was your approach to the work? How did you plan the work, divide it up, stay in communication about it, give each other feedback?”

    2. State Worker*

      This is a great opportunity for you, it’s a great way to connect with coworkers you don’t usually get to see, and to learn about what senior personnel are looking for. This can help you as you move up in the organization. Ask to talk to one of the other (more senior) interviewers beforehand to get a feel for what to expect. Don’t underestimate your value to the panel, you bring fresh eyes.

    3. irene adler*

      Get straight on what skills/experience/knowledge is actually needed/desired for this position-ahead of the interview. Sometimes the other interviewer(s) will focus on something that turns out not to be all that important in performing the job. Or they have little ‘pet’ things they like to see. Don’t let these get in the way of what is truly needed for this position. You don’t have to argue with folks asking about these ‘pet’ things; just focus on what’s important. Make sure these get asked about.

      Have some good initial and follow-up questions ready that pertain to the things deemed important for the candidate to possess. The others are more likely to ask all the obvious initial questions (or not; depends upon how well prepared the other interviewer are). You want to be a good listener during the interview, and be ready with the ‘follow-up’ type of questions pertaining to the desired skill/experience/knowledge already asked about. Draw out the candidate if you can.

    4. Susie Q*

      One thing to think about is does the panel actually value your opinion or do they just want you to agree with them? In your first couple of panels, when giving feedback I would default to be one of the last to provide feedback and observe how the others give feedback and how that relates to their position in the company. I’ve been part of many panels at many different levels and sometimes the main decision-maker does not care about your opinion – you are there as a formality.

    5. Free Meerkats*

      Since you’re doing panel interviews (I’ve done a lot), you’ll be ranking the candidates. So, even if the first candidate is a magical unicorn who wrote the book on doing the job you’re interviewing for and wrote the software that they’ll be using, resist the urge to give them 5s across the board. Rate them toward the middle of the road so if another candidate is the magical unicorn with a golden horn who taught the first unicorn everything they know, but not everything the second knows, you can rate the second higher.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Adding onto these great suggestions:

        Create a rubric, with each score well-defined now, e.g.

        5 = Will greatly contribute in this area
        4 = Will be a pretty good asset
        3 = Will contribute
        2 = Needs training
        1 = Needs significant training

    6. ecnaseener*

      Be ready to answer questions about the role (especially if you’re in a similar role) and the team/culture – candidates will see you as the most likely source of truth for certain things, as the most junior person.

    7. Brett*

      Read some of the interview advice here, both for interviewers and interviewees. Especially questions to ask or expect to be asked (again, both sides).

      Use this to build a list of behavioral questions you would like to ask. I have a list of about 10, and then pick 2-3 that I want to use for that particular interview.

      And then, look over the resume. Assess several items:
      What experience do they have that interests me that I want to know more about? (These should be “tell me about the time in role x when …” questions. Not just “Tell me about your experience with skill x”)
      What red flags do I see that I want to have explained? (I normally ask about these very early in the interview)
      Where do they have gaps? (Ask both so they know their own gaps, and in case they have relevant experience they have left off.)

      If other interviewers don’t ask, make sure you understand (by asking):
      Why they want the job? (It might be just because they need a paycheck. I tell interviewees up front that this is okay if they want nothing more out of the job than a paycheck. But if a candidate wants to learn new skills, or switch careers, or work with a certain type of environment and we don’t offer that, that’s really important information for both of us!)
      Why are they looking for a new role? (Because maybe your role is a great fit, and you want to highlight this, or maybe it is a bad fit, and you want to highlight this as well. Let them make an informed choice.)
      What would they hope to get out of this position? (Same as above. Highlight how you can help their career goals, or, if you have to, note that it is a bad match.)
      The three items above will help you make sure that you get your first choice for a position by being able to match your role to their goals. Or help the candidate self-select themselves out if the position matches up poorly for them (rather than both of you finding out 6 months later that it is a bad fit).

      Just because you are the newest doesn’t mean you have the lowest opinion. If you come prepared and ask good questions, yours might end up being the most respected opinion!

    8. Nicki Name*

      Have a consistent set of questions and figure out what your criteria are for a good candidate ahead of time. That’ll help keep you from falling back on unconscious biases.

      Read the candidate’s resume more than 5 minutes ahead of time, so you know if you want to ask questions about anything specific on it. I’ve been in too many interviews where I think some interviewers are just reading it for the first time when I’m sitting there.

      Take notes! It’s a stressful situation for everyone and you won’t remember as much as you ordinarily would.

    9. I'm just here for the cats*

      I’m in the same boat as you. Have some interviews on Monday and I’m nervous

    10. De Minimis*

      I had this experience recently. Try to summarize what you thought of each candidate, positively and negatively. Where I work we will usually give our thoughts immediately after the interview. It’s good to have something to say on both sides, assuming there’s something both positive and negative about the candidate. Don’t worry about finding something unique to say, just show that you were paying attention and thinking about the candidate’s potential fit or lack thereof.

    11. Siege*

      NB: My workplace is totally dysfunctional. Decide whether you trust the people on the panel with you. I’m on a hiring panel with two of the three worst employees in my organization (we are the first line of defence, not the final decision makers, thank God) so I’ve formulated my clear understanding of what I want for the role we’re hiring for, and I will be pushing for that outcome in my recommendations to the second-tier hiring committee who does have hiring authority. (I work closely with all positions in my organization, and I am the only person here who does, so I feel very fine with deciding that the best hire is someone I can work with.)

      So think about what makes people in the role you’re hiring for good employees to work with, and decide whether you trust the rest of the committee to be on the same page. It can help to explicitly have a meeting to discuss the skills y’all think would be a good fit, especially if you can review resumes and discuss skill transfers, because maybe you want a Llama Groomer who knows the ins and outs of different llama brushes, but you’ve got a lot of applicants coming in from Chinchilla Care And Breeding and it’s useful to decide whether expertise in chinchilla perches are transferable to llama brushes.

      If you decide that you don’t trust the people on the committee, get ready to dig in. Decide that based on whether they are people who are easy to work with (the two on my committee are routinely insulting but of course it’s “humor” and delay others’ work by not completing their parts, etc) and people who do good work, not just whether you like them. If you can’t trust them, don’t worry about consensus, stand up for what you need.

    12. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      Seconding the advice to speak to others on the panel to get a feel for how these things usually go and how much you are expected to actively participate — they obviously want your opinion or you wouldn’t be there, but some companies prefer panelists to weigh in after while others will want you jumping in if questions occur to you in the moment.

      Don’t be afraid of asking questions that relate to fit, which is something that comes up again and again at AAM. Do people need to be able to work more independently, or is chatting with colleagues a huge part of office culture? Could your team use someone who is a real stickler for details because you already have a lot of “idea” people and you want that down-to-earth balance? How does collaboration on projects work and how will the candidate adapt to that?

      Also thing about what the best employees at your workplace do and see if you can ask questions relating to those skills, whether soft skills or technical ones.

    13. stornry*

      Talk to the panel lead – ask them what they are looking for and how they think you might be of help. When putting together a panel, I have sometimes deliberately included someone from a totally different area in order to, in a way, balance things. For example, I have one supervisor who is excellent and finding a candidate able and willing to do the work but can’t quite nail down how to find someone who will work well with others as part of a team – so I always pair them up with someone who can suss out those soft skills.

      1. Wandering*

        Yes, this. Also find out what format they use for interviews. Some places have a fixed set of questions for each interviewer, some for the team with each taking a question in turn. Some have their personal list of standard questions; you want to have questions that don’t duplicate those lists. Some places let team members ask whatever they like.

        Think about how to take notes on things that may not speak directly to your list of questions. Eg, does the candidate pay equal attention to interviewers in turn, focus on just one person, etc; is there an evident pattern to their questions if you? Do they ask some of the questions Alison recommends? If not, might you nudge them toward some of those you find particularly notable? (Do you have questions about the work culture? Expectations (in general & in starting out)?

        Are your notes going straight to the interview team lead? Will you all meet to discuss the candidates once you’ve finished, or to discuss them individually as you go? Etc.

    14. Anabel*

      If you are like 90% of the folks in my industry you are likely to expect too much of candidates, especially as the newest person on the panel. Consider this a good opportunity to learn from your co-workers and reflect on how much you’ve learned in your role.

      While it can be problematic, I try to think about what kind of co-worker I’d want if we were having a really bad day. Whatever a really bad day looks like in your industry. For me I want someone who can find solutions to hard problems, can be resourceful, can work respectfully with a team in a high stress environment, etc. And then I come up with questions about those things. “Tell me about a time when ____” is an interview standard for a reason.

  10. Little Beans*

    How do you handle alarms in the morning when you and your partner have different schedules? My partner just went back to working in person this week for the first time in a year and a half. He has a much earlier start time than me, plus a commute, while I am still working from home. He is a rather heavy sleeper and it is really important that he be on time to work (he’s a high school teacher), so his alarm is loud and it always wakes me up earlier than I need to be up.

    Another factor is that we had a baby during the pandemic and we now have a 14 month-old who still doesn’t always sleep through the night. Pre-pandemic, when my partner’s alarm went off, I’d usually wake up but then just roll over and go back to sleep. Now, my sleep is a lot more precious to me and I’m a lot less happy about being woken unnecessarily, especially if it’s the second or third time that night. Any suggestions besides sleeping in separate rooms?

    1. Amtelope*

      Would a smartwatch or fitness tracker wristband vibrating alarm work for him? That might be less likely to wake you up.

      1. OneTwoThree*

        The alternate doesn’t HAVE to be for him. (I agree that it is ideal.) Although his alarm clock is loud, eventually the OP’s body will learn to tune it out and focus on the light, fitness tracker, etc.

        1. hamsterpants*

          I have not had this experience simply learning to tune out a partner’s alarm, just fyi. It depends on your body and sleep habits. What did help for me was what others suggested, physical methods for me to tune out his alarm, plus him committing to actually get up at the first alarm rather than snoozing 3x.

        2. Anhaga*

          If you’re already on alert for sounds of unhappy baby, it’s hard to tune out anything, unfortunately. I was a horribly light sleeper when my kids were very small.

      2. Little Beans*

        I can’t wear earplugs because I have to hear the baby. And we tried a sunrise alarm years ago (pre-baby) and it didn’t work well for either of us. But hearing lots of votes for a vibrating watch which sounds like it could work!

        1. Ontario Library Employee*

          My husband sleeps right through his fitbit vibrating (but the sound of it vibrating on his wrist would wake me!). So he has an alarm on his phone and I would wear ear plugs. When my son was young, I’d set the baby monitor to vibrate mode and put it under my pillow. It could be calibrated so it only vibrates for loud crying VS a little fussing.

      1. SnowWhiteClaw*

        I second this! I have a vibrating FitBit alarm that wakes me up without waking anyone else.

    4. lost academic*

      This is a challenge because you do need to be able to wake up at night for the kids but not early in the morning when not needed. This solution really has to come from your partner – what will work for him? Before kids, my partner HATED my alarms (especially if I ever hit snooze) because he got to start work much later and had almost 30 minutes less commute as well). I eventually got a FitBit Flex2 (don’t need a smartwatch) and tested it out to find that it was enough to get me up.

      But I’ll also say that on days/nights where sleep is critical we sleep in different rooms. It’s not worth it.

    5. Alice*

      Get him a smartwatch or wearable wristband, and have him set a vibrate alarm. I have an inexpensive one myself. I used to annoy the entire house due to my three very loud alarms (not a morning person) and it’s been a life changer.

    6. Rosie*

      Is he more responsive to touch than noise? Would something like the vibration alarm on a fitbit or Apple watch wake him (especially since it will repeat again 5 minutes later if not manually turned off)?

      That’s what’s been saving my marriage/sleep for years — both of us have haptic alarms and it doesn’t wake the other person unless they’re already nearly awake. AND it doesn’t wake the kiddo in the other room!

    7. Person from the Resume*

      I don’t have a partner, but I find a sunrise alarm clock with 20 minutes of rising light and ending with with very soft nature/bird sounds a gentle wakeup. And if i notice the light before the wake up time and want to stay asleep I roll over and cover my eyes to get less sleep. If your partner is getting more of the light than you because its on his side of the bed it may do a better job of waking him and allowing you to sleep.

      1. Mockingjay*

        You can buy microchip lightbulbs for your lamps that do the same. They sync to a phone app. It’s so nice to wake as the room slowly brightens with soft, warm light. Put one on his side of the bed.

      2. Anonymous Koala*

        I love my light alarm! My partner is really sensitive to noise and he works nights so my alarm going off 2-3 hours after he went to bed was awful. The light alarm saved us.

        If it’s feasible, I would also suggest sleep earbuds with white noise (the noise canceling ones block out everything). They’re a little expensive but they work really well. I’m not sure if you need to be able to hear a baby monitor for your child, but if so, some monitors have Bluetooth and will connect to earphones so you can hear them but not anything else.

      3. allathian*

        I have a light alarm and it works like a charm. I have to be exceptionally tired to wake up to the sound of the alarm. I can’t use the birdsong alarm, because otherwise I’d wake up to real birds singing outside my bedroom window in spring and summer.

        I can’t use earplugs, because I can’t fall asleep with them in my ears, they seem to make my tinnitus even louder and I also hear my own pulse. I could use the sort of eye mask you can get for sleeping on an airplane, though. It’s not an issue for us because my husband and I sleep in separate bedrooms.

        1. BubbleTea*

          I have a sunrise alarm with birdsong, and found that I can differentiate between the real birds and the alarm ones quite well. The real trick, however, was to learn to wake up to the dog jumping off the bed when HE heard the start of the alarm birdsong – he could tell the difference very clearly and heard it several seconds before I did.

          These days I don’t need the dog or the sunrise clock because I have an infant alarm. I miss the days of needing an alarm clock. I miss sleep.

    8. Ace in the Hole*

      What about a vibrating alarm? I’ve seen them in the form of wrist bands. It makes a little noise, but not nearly as much as a loud alarm clock, and may be just as effective at waking him up.

    9. A Simple Narwhal*

      My husband and I both have apple watches and the alarms just gently vibrate on our wrists, no sound. It’s a surprisingly effective alarm but it doesn’t disturb the other person. We both used to have fitbits, which also have a vibration option, but I found them to be louder and oddly less effective than the apple watch. It’s definitely a less expensive option (and they may have improved, I haven’t had a fitbit in a couple years so it’s totally possible the later ones are better), so it’s worth looking into if you don’t want to shell out for an apple watch.

        1. Silence Will Fall*

          I wear mine to bed. I charge it when I’m getting ready in the morning and put it on before I leave. (I keep a backup cable in my purse so I can charge at work/in the car, if I end up leaving in a hurry.)

        2. Irish girl*

          i put mine on the charger around 90 mins before i go to sleep to get a full charge. The sleep app on the watch also has a setting that will tell you based on your bed time when your watch needs to be charged to get enough juice to make it overnight.

      2. Little Beans*

        Hearing lots of recommendations for a vibrating alarm!! I think we’ll have to try this.

    10. Susie Q*

      We were really hesitant to sleep in separate bedrooms but it has worked really well for us. We both sleep better and can sleep on a schedule that works for us individually.

      But if you are against separate bedrooms, I would try ear plugs for you and a vibrating alarm for your husband. White noise could also help muffle sounds in the morning as well.

      1. Sigrid*

        We also sleep in separate bedrooms (I’m an emergency doc so I work mostly evenings/nights, my wife needs to get to work at 8 am sharp). We were initially hesitant due to the social expectations, but I have to say it’s been pretty amazing for us all around.

      2. Malarkey01*

        I was going to say I know this seems radical, but ESPECIALLY when there’s a young child and missing sleep goes from annoying to my brain is starting to damage itself, a bed in another room can do wonders (and if you don’t have a guest room you can put a small bed in the kids room, bonus room, etc to try out).

      3. Girasol*

        Us too. He couldn’t stand the alarm. I was half-awake all night trying to wake early so he wouldn’t hear it. Sometimes I would sneak downstairs and pull a camp mattress and sleeping bag out of the closet for deep sleep on the floor with an alarm to wake me, and gradually we migrated to separate bedrooms for sleeping. It’s so much better for both of us – no problems with snoring and thrashing and blankets, no disagreements over window open or shut. But it’s hard to get past a vague sense of guilt that proper married people must always share a bed no matter what.

      4. ChattyAli*

        My parents slept separately for years when my mom worked second shift snd my dad had a 24 hour call schedule. They maintained a master bedroom but my dad would sleep in his man cave when he had call. I never thought it was weird and it made total sense to me. I don’t think they’d have survived without this system.

    11. Bagpuss*

      Earplugs, if you can wear them, and different types of alarms.

      Has he tried the kind that have a gradual light come on, like sunrise? That plus a eye mask for you might work, and perhaps he could combine it with something that vibrates under his pillow.

      I don’t know if him wearing headphones and using the alarm on his phone could work, so he gets a sound in his ear but you don’t? It wouldn’t work for me but if he is able to sleep with earbuds (or maybe one of those sports headbands, or hats, which incorporate headphones?)

    12. HannahS*

      As a super-heavy sleeper who used to use VERY loud alarm clocks, I’d suggest that your partner add a sunlight alarm. I use one in the winter, and it means that I can manage with a quieter alarm (typical cell-phone alarm vs. one that has the word “bomb” in its name), which is less disruptive to my husband.

    13. AuroraPickle*

      I know you said you wanted suggestions other than sleeping in separate rooms, so I suggest separate beds. It might improve the quality of your sleep so an early alarm doesn’t make it impossible to go back to sleep, as easy to wake up or as stressful when you do because you’ve got all your own space that isn’t being intruded upon by an early riser. And that early riser isn’t stressing out about waking you up.

      Sleep is important. I’m speaking as someone who’s been with her husband for 17 years. We stopped sleeping in the same bed when we lived together but we’re not yet married. We shared a room but had two separate beds.

      1. Paige*

        This is how my spouse and I have our sleeping set up, too; not because of separate schedules, but because of very different preferences re: sheets/covers and mattress firmness. We both already had queen beds when we got married, so we just stuck them next to each other; I call it the “empress size” bed. It works especially well if you also have multiple pets who want to sleep on the bed with you. It does mean that (depending on depth/length of your bedroom) there is very little space for anything else in the room besides a couple of nightstands or a dresser.

        We still have the alarm problem, though. Mostly we deal with that via a vibrating alarm, a backup regular alarm set for five minutes later(in case the vibrating doesn’t wake you up; you switch it off if the vibrating does wake you up), and the rule that if you’re the first one getting up, you don’t get to use the snooze button.

      2. Not that kind of doctor*

        Yeah, my husband and I sleep in separate beds very close to each other. He sleeps badly and is up and down throughout the night, whereas I regularly have to get up at 4:30am; we’d be waking each other up all the time if we were on the same mattress. (Alternatively, I think you can also put two twin mattresses on a king bed frame?) I have my phone alarm set on vibrate and just have it on my mattress somewhere.

      3. lasslisa*

        There is also a cheap and easy to try option of separate sheets. My partner and I use separate sheets because our preferred temperatures are different, I like to be wrapped up like a burrito, and we both like to be able to adjust our covers in the middle of the night / while sleeping without waking the other person. You often don’t even have to buy anything new to try it, use sheets from a guest room or spare sheets from your own bed (folded in half).

    14. Intermittent Introvert*

      Have you considered moving to a different bed after the last time (hopefully) you get up with the baby in the early morning hours? The last sleep shift would be away from the alarm.

    15. meyer lemon*

      Your partner could try sleep headphones so that only he can hear the alarm. They are a bit on the pricey side, though.

    16. I'm just here for the cats*

      I don’t know if this would work for him, but I recommend light alarms. I have woken up before my alarm (with sound) went off because the light alarm was on. Mine is a gradual alarm so it mimics the sun rising. Could he get one and put it on his side of the bed. That might not jar you away as badly as a sound alarm.

    17. Red Swedish Fish*

      Can you sleep in separate rooms for now. Its not idea, but when we had our babies I put a single bed in their room and slept there until the baby slept through the night and while I was attempting breast feeding. My husband has a high stress job and needs his sleep and I was working from home in a much more lenient job.

    18. BelleMorte*

      Deaf people frequently use wrist vibrating alarms, the bedshaker vibrating alarms will wake you up too, they are STRONG. I really recommend separate rooms if you have the space, it makes a huge difference in sleep quality. There is also a lot less stigma around it now as people start valuing their sleep more, I have honestly had a much stronger relationship since we went to separate rooms (I’m a light sleeper who wants complete darkness, he has Restless Leg Syndrome and likes falling asleep to the TV). Ear plugs are another go-to but you might not be able to hear your kid.

      At a minimum, I’d suggest doing it until your kiddo sleeps through the night and you are getting better quality rest.

      1. formalpenguin*

        The vibrating wrist watch works for me. One thing I do is set the watch and then set a vocal alarm for 15-20 minutes later. You can try it out to see vibrating watch works well enough to wake him and worst case the vocal alarm will go off (this is meant to be a just in case although he would ideally wake up with the watch and turn off the vocal alarm). I’m paranoid that the wrist watch won’t wake me even though it does every day that I still set my phone alarm but I turn it off when I wake up.

      1. Little Beans*

        So, the baby crying and me getting up to get him doesn’t wake my husband. Like I said, he is a heavy sleeper!

        1. Ann Non*

          To be honest, I would be so resentful of my partner if he slept through the baby crying. Maybe you can pump and he takes one of the night feedings? Maybe that will train him to be a lighter sleeper?
          Because oh man, what if you have to go to the hospital and he has to take care of the kid by himself for a few days? He needs to hear the baby!

    20. WoodswomanWrites*

      Here’s another suggestion for earplugs. My former partner got up really early and it was less the alarm that was the issue than the fact that I couldn’t go back to sleep with him moving around the place. Earplugs took care of all that. I found that the standard sizes didn’t fit my small ears but found some that are cylinder-shape that work when I trim off the end to make them shorter.

    21. CatMintCat*

      At some point, I just learnt to sleep through his alarm or, if I do hear it, to go straight back to sleep. However, we’ve been at this game of him starting work at 4am and me starting at 9am for nearly 40 years. Practice …

      I like the suggestion of the light alarm, or the watch. I haven’t tried my watch to see if it will wake me up, I need to do that, as I hate the alarm

    22. allathian*

      Sleep in separate rooms. Sleep in the nursery with the kids. Or if you have a living room, ask your husband sleep on the couch. Sleeping in separate rooms won’t affect marital harmony if you’re on the same page about it, but if one of you doesn’t get enough sleep, sooner or later it will cause resentment. The negative consequences of a prolonged lack of sleep (exhaustion and the low sex drive that it can cause, grumpiness, cognitive dysfunction when it lasts long enough) are probably the main reason why couples with young kids are at a greater risk of divorce than at any other time during their relationship, especially if one spouse isn’t willing to do what it takes to ensure that both get enough sleep.

      Another option, of course, is for one of you to get a new job so that you’re on the same schedule.

      My husband and I have been sleeping in separate bedrooms since our son was born. He slept in the nursery with the baby and brought him to me for night feeding. He’s a good sleeper and can be asleep 5 minutes after his head hits the pillow, but I’m not. This worked for us even when he was working and I was on maternity and parental leave.

    23. lasslisa*

      Do you have an option to shift to his schedule? Like, go to bed earlier so that when his alarm goes off at 5:45 or whatever ungodly hour of the morning, you can get up too, and then do some of your personal tasks in the morning before work starts?

  11. CatsCatsCats*

    Any freelancers/contract workers here who can offer advice? I have been trying to break into the freelance writing world for a while now, and finally received an offer from an SEO company to write blogs, social media posts, and web pages for their clients. We agreed on pricing, work timelines, and went over the general information on the phone–all sounded good and doable from both my end and the company’s end (I will be doing this as a side gig while still employed full-time at my day job, so I really wanted to make sure we were on the same page.)

    I was super excited to finally get an offer as I’ve had a lot of phone calls and requests to send writing samples, but no actual offers yet until this week. Well, fast forward to yesterday when I received an email from the guy I’ve been working with at the company asking for the information they will need (I had so far received an email saying “welcome aboard! excited to work with you, etc.”) and one of the requests gave me pause.

    I have done 1099 work in the past, just not in freelance writing, and I’ve had to provide a W9, so was unsurprised to see that request. I also have set up an EIN so I don’t have to give my SSN out to people I’ve never actually met in person, and I’ve also already set up a virtual address for other purposes in the past, and have used that on my paperwork for other contract work before. All that to say, the W9 request doesn’t worry me at all.

    The thing that worried me, however, was a request for a copy of my ID. Is there any plausible reason an employer would need someone’s ID to set up a contract employee? I’ve researched this a bit and the answer seems to be no, but I’m new to this kind of contract work so I’m a little unsure.

    Does this scream red flag or scam? I did ask why they needed an ID, and the answer was that it wasn’t necessarily required if I could provide GL insurance, LLC paperwork, and EIN info. I do have an EIN, as I mentioned, but I’m not set up as an LLC and don’t have insurance… Help!

    1. Expiring Cat Memes*

      I freelance/d and was initially alarmed by requests for copies of my ID too. Seems like standard practice though for companies who have government clients. As for EIN/LLC – I’m outside US so I can’t speak to that. But I have had to take out public liability insurance in order to secure one contract –but that wasn’t difficult or expensive to organise.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Yes, I have had to verify my identity for remote freelance work with established companies. They need to know that they are dealing with real people who live where they say they live.

      If you aren’t sure whether you are being scammed, the ID is not the problem. You don’t know enough about the company’s presence and track record. What kind of vetting have you done on this client? It shouldn’t be very difficult to verify if they are a legit business.

      1. CatsCatsCats*

        They have a legitimate web presence and have reviews. The owner also said he owns a cleaning business, and that checks out as well. I am in CO and they are located in Denver, which according to everything online is accurate. Are there specific things I should be looking out for? I am wary about the ID because everything I’ve looked up says it is extremely easy to steal someone’s identity with an ID… But maybe I am just paranoid.

        1. T. Boone Pickens*

          If you haven’t done so already, you could check them out on Dun & Bradstreet to see if there are any credit issues. Pricing varies depending on what you’re looking to do (they do have a free trial version if you wanted to kick the tires).

        2. RagingADHD*

          Ownership records, business address, prior clients, Better Business Bureau complaints, and just googling the name of the business and name of the owner. If they aren’t brand-new and are scamming, someone has complained somewhere.

          You can always put a freeze on your credit if you have ongoing concerns about ID theft. Personally, I keep mine frozen anyway and think everyone should unless they’re actively in the process of getting a new credit line.

          Was everything else about the application process fine, or were there other things that worried you?

          1. CatsCatsCats*

            Everything else seemed fine… The owner is who I have been talking to and I even looked him up–I don’t see anything that would be a red flag, but since this is a new type of job for me I’m worried I could have missed something.

    3. Teapot Repair Technician*

      Sounds like content farm work, which I would consider a red flag to begin with. If you’re getting bad vibes on top of that, proceed with caution.

      1. CatsCatsCats*

        I think it is in that realm, but a smaller IT business so not as bad as some jobs that I’ve seen on freelancer job boards! I’m trying to get my foot in the door, so to speak, so I can build up my resume with more types of content writing. So far I have primarily written blogs and some website content for my 9-5 jobs, so it’s hard to get any further writing work without experience writing for clients.

        1. RagingADHD*

          There’s nothing inherently wrong with content farm work, except that the pay is low. It’s like working in a call center.

          Some call centers are run by shady or lowlife businesses. But plenty of perfectly legit businesses that sell respectable products use them, too.

  12. Grits McGee*

    Any other archivists following the American Historical Association/ National Archives open letter drama on Twitter? Some of the replies to the original tweet had me full body cackling, not going to lie.

    1. GigglyPuff*

      Do you have a link? I wanted to but I’m not on Twitter and couldn’t find it. I think by the time I looked they might have deleted the original letter tweet.

      1. Grits McGee*

        I’m putting a link in another comment, but I think the easiest way to find it is a google search.

    2. Mobius 1*

      I’m only currently aware of the drama surrounding someone calling a great many libraries and asking to be read a certain court case.

    3. Tomato Frog*

      Oh man, so good, I spent all day checking the Quote Tweets. Delicious. I liked the person who plugged in university/students in place of NARA/researchers to show how off-base and condescending the framing of the letter was.

      I do think it’s reasonable for the AHA to ask a government agency for some clarity about policy and plans. It’s the clueless attempts to troubleshoot (“Hey, how about hiring back some retirees? Hey, have you thought about implementing a system for managing researcher’s images, that would be simple right?”) that really place it in the Asshat Hall of Fame for me.

      1. Grits McGee*

        Yeah, it’s the “We recognize you are working with extraordinary staffing and physical limitations, so we’ve provided a list of expanded services we would like you to provide” that did it for me.

      2. Ace in the Hole*

        The retiree comment in particular pushed it over the edge for me. “Hey, I know the reason you’re doing this is a pandemic that mostly kills old people, but have you thought about deliberately hiring more old people to put in the riskiest job?”

        1. GigglyPuff*

          Yes! Like please ask high risk individuals to come put themselves at risk! Also the digitization thing also got to me. Like scanning is only a portion of that work, so much else goes into getting it online.

      3. commenter*

        If you assume good intent by the authors, which I do because their apology comes across as abject and sincere, I don’t see the problem. People had questions, and the group was trying to get answers.

        1. Dust Bunny*

          It may have been well-intended but it was still monumentally tone-deaf.

          The Board of Directors of my organization thought that archives staff didn’t have anything to do if we didn’t have researchers. That we literally sat at our desks playing solitaire or something unless a patron came in. Sometimes the people in charge have no idea what’s going on.

    4. Dust Bunny*

      I just read this and OMG I don’t know how that initial letter could have been construed as anything other than strong-arming archives employees into accommodating diva researchers. Good grief.

    5. Missing the Toast*

      I was a historian and was reminded of why that is no longer my profession! Who on earth thought that letter was a good idea? Everyone I was in grad school with–and whose projects the pandemic totally derailed– is Team Archivist!

  13. Tomato Frog*

    My direct report has been managing an intern over the summer and it’s gone extraordinarily well. I spoke to him about having a discussion afterwards to talk about why and how it worked out so well, in the hopes that we can take some lessons from it. He was enthusiastic about doing this — but I have no idea where to start with this sort of conversation! Does anyone have any tips or know of any resources for assessment in a situation like this?

    1. Lynn*

      I think you may be overthinking it! Ideally your direct report should be able to share their thoughts on why it went well without you having to do too much to “start the conversation”, and then you can mull it over to figure out a good forum for taking lessons from it (they may have thoughts on this also — if it’s feedback to provide to HR on hiring, or a presentation to other intern managers, or information to HR about orientation, etc). It might be helpful to have thoughts and ideas to prime the pump but unless your office is very formal and hierarchical you can probably play it by ear based on what you learn.

      1. Tomato Frog*

        Letting him lead is a good idea and a good reminder, thanks! I still want to prepare with some tools/questions for helping us get under the surface of things, if needed.

    2. Admin of Sys*

      It sounds as if previous versions of the process have maybe not gone so well, could you take the things that have gone badly with other people / interns and walk through what is being done differently? Though note that it’s possible it’s just a combination of good people and matching styles. If, for example, previous interns were consistently late and the current one is very punctual, that may just be a luck of the draw rather than management techniques.

      1. Tomato Frog*

        This is a great idea — using what was different about this as a guide for structuring our conversation. Thanks! It was definitely at least in part just that the intern was just great and a good fit for what he needed right now, but I’m confident there are some less chance-based elements we can identify as well.

    3. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      When meeting with your direct report, I’d go with open ended questions that are quite broad — “what surprised you the most” and “what was the communication like between you and the intern, and did that change from Day 1 to the end of the summer?” to get a sense of how they worked together. Also make it a point to ask how they thought about approaching the training and the relationship at a high level. Specific-question wise, I have two. (1) What in your past (working life) prepared you for this task? (or similar, you want to know what skills they already had they got to flex or further explore, so you can theoretically prepare others for the intern wrangling in future) and (2) Do you think (intern’s) experience this summer was comparable to other interns?

      That second question feeds into my other suggestion which is to get the intern’s opinion too. If your company has more than one internship, know that INTERNS TALK and to whatever degree you can convince them to level with you, you may gain valuable insight into how the program is run and how your people can maximize the benefits for everyone. It’s still worth asking your direct report though, since the intern may have shared things in a slightly more off the record way that could come up.

      2. Cordelia*

        yes that’s what I was going to suggest too – get the interns view, if you can. For both of them – what worked, what didn’t work, what started off not working but got fixed and how did they fix it. Also for both of them – have they had experiences of managing/being managed in the past, how did this one compare, what made this one a positive experience in comparison to others….

    4. Distractinator*

      Sounds like you’re off to a great start – ask, then listen to the answer :)
      In terms of directing the conversation, what you’re really trying to get out of this is a sense of what to expect going forward – is this report really great at managing interns and you should be thinking about how to steer them towards leadership roles? Is this intern just really great and easy to manage and you should be thinking about how to hire them immediately? Are there specific actions that they did in this mentor relationship that they think could be implemented to assist other intern/mentor pairs next internship cycle?
      So your meeting will start with your report telling their story, and if it’s not clear what the lessons are and how you’d answer questions above, start digging at it.

  14. Goose*

    This question is on behalf of my mother.

    She has semi-retired/consulting after a long non-profit career. She found a part-time job she’s interested that she’s wayyyyyyyy overqualified for, and thinks it could be a great way to immerse herself in the community (my parents moved to a new city recently.)

    I’m trying to help her structure her resume and cover letter. She had another “part-time because she was bored and passionate about the work” job a few years ago that I think she should include, but she disagrees.

    What’s the best way to structure a resume for a job answering phones when she used to run million dollar campaigns? Her cover letter discusses her reasons for wanting this job pretty well, but we don’t want the resume to be a turn off.

    1. LC*

      Why does she not want to include the “part-time because she was bored and passionate about the work” job? That seems incredibly relevant, particularly in a situation where, presumably, everything else on her resume would be the ones that make her super overqualified for this one.

      Speaking to in her cover letter is absolutely a great idea too, but I don’t think it’s unlikely that someone would glance at the resume first, think “whoa this person either applied for the wrong job or will be super bored within a week.”

      1. Mimi*

        I agree about including the previous part-time job. I would guess that she’s resistant to including it because it feels less “strong” than her previous work experience, but it’s actually the thing that shows that she’s prepared to take on a lower-responsibility job with reduced hours — it’s her track record of being successful in a similar job, which is VERY important. It’s the difference between “semi-retired rockstar looking for something small to keep her hand in” and “overqualified rockstar who’s going to get bored and leave.”

    2. CatCat*

      I’d revise the resume to reflect skills that are valuable to answering phones.

      So if she has a line for “Senior Fundraiser” and has an accomplishment that says something like: “Successfully raised $1.2 million for non-profit program in less than a year.” That has nothing to do with answering phones on its face and it’s not clear why that would be valuable. “Communicated regularly by phone with donors from various backgrounds as a part of a successful fundraising campaign” would be more targeted.

    3. Actual Vampire*

      My company is hiring for a similar position right now, and we’ve gotten a few candidates like your mom. They are our top candidates – we are super excited for the opportunity to hire someone with so much experience! Our main concern for our situation isn’t really that the candidate will be understimulated by the work, but rather that they will not take the job seriously and be more interested in enjoying their partial retirement. I think a cover letter (as well as the interview) will be key for your mom to express her interest in the job and her interest in working in general. It’s definitely good to include the fact that she wants to immerse herself in the community- it’s a good example of how she thinks she will benefit from this job, and shows that she wants to be engaged in working and isn’t just doing this for the margarita money. I also think she should include the previous job on her resume. It’s evidence that she still considers herself part of the workforce and is already engaged in her second career. Although, if that experience didn’t go well for her (I’m assuming that’s why she doesn’t want to include it?) she might want to consider how she presents it.

      1. Goose*

        No, her previous part time experience was great and she loved it! I’m not totally sure her reasoning for not wanting to include it–maybe that her resume is already long? As other mentioned, I think it’s a great way to show that she’s not about to get bored and doesn’t know the expectations for this kind of work.

        But it’s so nice to know that resumes like hers are jumping to the front!

        1. Actual Vampire*

          I would tell her to include it even if she needs to drop something else off her resume to make it fit. No one is going to be that interested in a job she had 20 years ago. They’ll be more interested in the sum total of her experience, which she should emphasize in her cover letter. And her cover letter should definitely also include how much success she had (personally and professionally) in her part-time job.

      2. Malarkey01*

        On this- I’d have her think about how she’ll also answer interview questions about her schedule and commitment. My mother struggles with this- she is retired, doesn’t need to work, but actually loves to work and be busy. She’ll take a job and then as soon as a conflict comes up, grandkids need something, or she gets a new idea she quits. She had 8 jobs in one year before CoVid. She just leaves them off her resume and no one questions why a retired person has gaps. Drives me nuts.

        So have her put the other job on because it also shows she understands part time work and isn’t doing this just for fun without understanding expectations.

    4. Anonymous Koala*

      (Disclaimer – I am not a hiring manager and have only ever hired interns.)
      I think writing that she’s semi-retired either in the cover letter or in the resume might go along way towards helping the hiring manager understand why she’s interested in the job. And if she gets a phone interview, this should be easy to explain to the recruiter.

  15. Constance Lloyd*

    Is there any room for salary negotiation with (state) government jobs? Pay steps seem pretty rigid, especially for positions that aren’t especially high ranking.

    1. not a doctor*

      All you can really do is try to argue that you should be at a higher step based on specialized education or experience. If you don’t have either, you’re probably out of luck.

    2. The Dude Abides*

      If the position is within the union, probably not. When I got offered a promotion four months ago, I tried to negotiate a bigger pay rise, but was told that it was set based on what step I was on and the title.

    3. Person from the Resume*

      Salary negotiations, no. Salaries are fixed. They are hiring for a particular position/pay grade and I don’t know of any to get them to change the paygrade. I did know someone who negotiated starting at a higher step (which generally equate to years of experience at a paygrade so they convinced them that their years of experience meant that they start at a higher step. That’s not usually a huge jump in pay and you max out to the top step faster that way.

      In my experience salary and benefits for government positions are fixed to the paygrade and or years of govt service (for leave earned).

      1. Constance Lloyd*

        Thank you! This is what I expected, but I don’t exactly have a history of being an aggressive negotiator in the private sector so I wanted to make sure I wasn’t being unnecessarily timid while applying for government jobs. Cheers!

    4. Civil Serpent*

      Generally no. This is usually dictated by unions and contract negotigations for the whole thing. You may be able to negotigate which step you start at though.

    5. CatCat*

      This is going to depend on the state. In my state, California, yes there is, but whether you will be successful at negotiating up will depend on the agency. Some have a blanket policy that they will only hire at the bottom of the range. Others are willing to do what is called “hiring above minimum” depending on your qualifications and how hard it is to fill the role.

    6. I'm just here for the cats*

      Are you currently employed byt the state or is this a new position? If it’s new, probably not. But I know from my experience in a state university that if you have been there for a while, with a good track record that you and your supervisors may be able to argue why you should get a higher pay. Just keep in mind if there are any maximums.

      1. Constance Lloyd*

        It would be a new position. I currently work as a contract employee for a federal government agency so I’m looking at actual government jobs as well as private sector. I’m currently undergoing a background check for a state job which is overseen by the same agency I currently contract for, and the role itself is essentially a merger of my last 2 jobs. Think… Last Job was completing financial audits of reptile breeders, Current Job is inspecting alpaca habitats for the Department of Alpaca Affairs, and Potential Job would be completing financial audits of alpaca breeders for the state division of the Department of Alpaca Affairs. My current level of clearance is also higher than necessary for Potential New Job.

        I don’t think I plan to negotiate- the stated rate is already about a 30% pay increase- I just wanted to make sure I wasn’t being foolish by not even asking for, say, an extra 50 cents an hour. This is the first time I’m not job hunting with a sense of desperation, so I’m not used to negotiating and considering women tend to be less likely to negotiate than men I wanted to make sure my instincts were correct here. I appreciate all y’all taking the time to respond and help out :)

    7. Anonymous Koala*

      Depends. I’ve heard of several instances in state and fed gov where people were brought on at higher steps within the same payband because their previous salaries were so high it was the only way to salary match. But if you’re trying to move from one payband to another that’s usually not possible.

    8. KeinName*

      So, I am not in the US but wanted to share in case it could be relevant. We have the fixed pay bands, negotiated between unions, labor organisations and so forth. A job is advertised in a catergory corresonding to a salary and then you move on in 8-year steps. But the employer can decide to overpay anyone. This is not written down anywhere but it is done. It is not easy to change the job category or to get more years of experience recognized, so if some boss really wants their, say, highly valued assistent to receive proper pay, they can advocate for overpay for them.

    9. It happened to me!*

      I’m going to go against the tide here and say it’s possible. I got an offer for a state gov job (in the Western US if that matters) and asked to go up in salary (from pay step 1 to pay step 6) and they met me at pay step 3 or 4. It took me about a month to hear back from them after I requested the higher rate because they had to run it through some kind of chain of command for permission to raise the rate.

      1. The Dude Abides*

        In general, it’s easier for this to occur when coming in from outside, as opposed to an internal promotion.

    10. Analise*

      My niece successfully negotiated salary at a state job in WA state, so it must vary by state!

  16. PT*

    I started a new informational blog and am hoping it will gain readership.
    I’m on the free WordPress plan, is there anything I can do that is no cost to promote it?

    I am not on social media so I can’t put it on my Facebook feed or Twitter or Linked in.

    1. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      You’re really going to have to do good SEO then. But really, not being on social media to promote your articles will hurt you because it’s the easiest source of traffic. Start social media accounts just for your blog and cross post your articles there, using relevant hashtags. Follow and interact with other similar content creators.

      1. RagingADHD*

        Agreed.

        The best way to leverage traffic is sharing – getting other people to spread the word on your behalf.

        Social media is the digital version of “word of mouth”. Starting a blog without using any social media is the equivalent of opening a coffee shop without telling anyone or putting out any signs.

        You’re basically depending on people looking up “coffee shop” in the phone book, and maybe deciding to try yours instead of the one with the display ad.

      2. Lynn*

        Seconded. I did something similar pre-pandemic, and really resisted the idea of doing social, because I don’t even use social media in my personal life, but a friend in marketing gave me some tough love about it. I took a lot of free webinars (as someone who didn’t use personal social media, it was helpful to me, but I have heard paid trainings need to not be worth it), and they also helped distill some thoughts on what I was doing with the blog.

    3. LTL*

      You can make social media accounts exclusively for your blog! Try following others in the same space. Maybe even do a collaboration where you make a post for their blog and vice versa, though that will be difficult before you have a readership. Are there any online or offline communities that are focused around the kind of stuff you’re blogging about? See if you can promote there (and if you can’t, network in those spaces).

      More than anything, you’ll have to give it time. Amassing readers when you’re just starting out is really, really hard. The most important thing in the meanwhile (from most to least important) is to post (1) quality content (2) consistently (i.e. every Tuesday and 8am) (3) often (twice a week is better than weekly is better than monthly, but at some point you see diminishing returns- not sure what the cutoff is for blogging).

      1. PT*

        Given all the social media posts I’ll take it under consideration.
        Your idea about posting consistently is a good idea, one post a week is about what I am looking at, but will post the same day and time each week.
        Quality content is covered, about a dozen articles are either written or in an advanced stage, gonna start the site with a few posts.

    4. Soup of the Day*

      Seconding everyone who says you have to be on social, but would like to add – don’t feel overwhelmed! You can have a presence on all of the major platforms without having to spend tons of time there. Pick the top one or two platforms that are most important for YOUR niche and focus most of your efforts there in terms of commenting on other peoples’ posts, responding to comments, creating thoughtful content, etc.

      You should still be on as many different sites as possible, but social media schedulers like Buffer or Hootsuite will allow you to schedule posts in advance so you don’t always have to be “on” every one of them (and they’ll also let you write ONE post and schedule it to a bunch of different platforms, so you don’t need unique content for each.)

      You can also reuse content from your blog to create these posts so you’re not writing all new content from scratch, and Canva is amazing for making graphics even if you have 0 design skills – they have tons of free templates that can help. Good luck!!

    5. Nela*

      Apart from social media, some things that can help give your blog a little push:

      1. Put the link to your blog in your email signature.

      2. Research other blogs on similar topics, and if they have comments enabled, leave thoughtful comments (with your blog address in the URL field). Don’t just do it once, keep doing it for a while. You might make some new online friends, and if they have do-follow links on comments, you might get some SEO benefits too. Use either your full name or your first name in the “Name” field – not your blog name or any keywords, because that looks obviously spammy.

      3. If you are a member of any online forums (I know, that’s so 2000’s), add the link to your signature there as well.

      Don’t expect miracles, because if you don’t already have a strong social media presence, the growth will be quite slow. But you’re planting the seeds for the future :)

    6. CurrentlyBill*

      Here are a few tips:

      1) Pick the social media platform most relevant to your audience and build a presence there.

      2) If you have no idea where your audience is likely to consume stuff, you probably don’t know your audience well enough to grow it. Spend some time learning about who you are writing to/for.

      3) Get specific on your blog. Don’t try to cover a lot of different topics to cast a wider net for your audience. Go narrow and deep to become the expert in your space. Audiences like experts more than generalists.

      4) Find others in your space (your “competitors”) and support them. recommend their content. Comment on their posts. Do it sincerely, but try support them without expecting support from them. Doing so will again help drive your brand as an expert in your space. connect with them on social. Meet with them in person or online. Clubhouse can be a good tool for that if other creators in your niche are also there.

      5) Be patient. This will take time, and that’s ok.

      6) Get your own domain. It can cost less than $15 a year. MyBlogName.com will be more credible than MyBlogName.Wordpress.com or blogspot.com/MyBlogName or whatever.

      7) If you want to stay free, consider building your blog on Medium or LinkedIn, or a different platform depending on where your audience spend their time. It’s risky to build on someone else’s platform. If they go away or feel you violated there TOS, then you have a problem. But if you build there, you can have can leverage their tools. And it’s no more risk than you already have with free WordPress.

      8) Spend some time figuring out why growing your readers matters to you. Are you sure it actually matters or is this project about self expression? Is your goal to teach people? To feed your ego? To build a brand for a freelance business? To generate pocket change? To generate a full time salary alternative? To build content you can turn into a book? To look good in future job interviews? There are lots of reasons to grow readership. Understanding why you want to do that and what (if anything) you want to accomplish will help you make the right decisions.

      9) Define what “gain readership” means to you. If you get one more reader this year, are you happy or disappointed? I mean you’ve gained readership so you’ve achieved your goal, right? Or you you mean 5 more readers? Or 10? Or 100? Or 5,000?

  17. Pay periods and budgets*

    For the first time in my professional career, I am switching from a semi-monthly pay schedule to a bi-weekly one and I am anxious about it. I am a good saver and always have a decent cushion in my checking account, so I’m not worried about overdrafts, just the emotions. Mentally, I always know roughly how much I should have in my checking account based on what time of the month it is, so switching to a different schedule is going to be an adjustment. Does anyone have any budgeting tips (particularly emotional guidance)?

    1. not a doctor*

      I’m not sure I understand the difference, can you clarify what’s bothering you? Shouldn’t it work out to be very nearly the same thing?

      1. Pay periods and budgets*

        Right now I keep about a one month float in my checking account. Since my bills are predictable monthly, if the number is off from what it usually is (given the time of the month/ bills due), I go back and make sure the correct bills were paid, etc. This works for me because I know the paycheck from the 15th pays the credit card and car payment, the one from the last day of the month goes to the mortgage. Anything in excess goes to savings. Now that it will vary from month to month, I am worried I am going to miss something because the pay periods won’t be consistent on a monthly basis.

      2. Littorally*

        In a semimonthly pay cycle, you always get paid on the same date each month — usually the 1st and 15th. So that accords more closely with billing cycles where the bills always come due on the same date of the month. But what day of the week you get paid varies.

        In a biweekly pay cycle, you always get paid on the same day of the week, but the date of month you get paid cycles through the month. IE — this month I get paid on the 6th and 20th, next month I’ll get paid on the 3rd and 17th, the month after that I’ll get paid on the 1st, 15th, and 29th. It means the paychecks don’t always line up with when bills are due — if a bill falls due on the 16th, for instance, the midmonth paycheck that lands on the 15th will cover it, but the midmonth paycheck falling on the 17th won’t.

        Also, semi-monthly is 24 paychecks a year, biweekly is 26 paychecks a year. So each paycheck is a little smaller with biweekly, but you also have twice a year where you get an “extra” paycheck in the billing cycle. IME it isn’t actually the months where three paychecks fall into the same calendar months, but where they fall slightly askew of the general cycle of bills coming in.

        1. NotMyRealName*

          That’s not always true for semi-monthly. We get paid three business days after the 15th and the last day of the month. The pay period on the 15th can be anywhere from the 18th to the 20th, and the last day of the month pays from the 3rd to as late as the 6th if a Monday holiday falls into it. There’s talk of moving to bi-weekly and I’m all for it.

          1. Lizzie*

            my first job, where I made peanuts, was semi-monthly. I HATED it. there were times where they’re would be 3 weekends between paychecks and as I w as living paycheck to paycheck as it was, that was ROUGH. Then it was weekly, and now, every 2 weeks, which I prefer.

      3. Gipsy Danger*

        No, it doesn’t. Semi-monthly means you get paid twice a month, 24 paychecks a year. Bi-weekly means every second week, 26 paychecks a year. The difference can be substantial (I recently made this switch, and though the jobs pay the same, my bi-weekly check is a couple hundred dollars less than my semi-monthly one was). It is an adjustment. My advice is have a plan for the two extra paychecks you’re going to get a year. For me, those will boost my savings, since I have less regular monthly income to put towards this.

      4. tamarack and fireweed*

        It was quite a change for me to move from what I was used to in Europe (getting paid at the end of each month for that month’s work) to getting paid every second Friday for the pay period that ended two Fridays earlier. The alignment of wage payments with the big monthly outlays is always off-kilter. Luckily I can now afford to keep a pretty good cushion in my checking account.

        There’s already good advice in this thread, in particular I follow the idea of budgeting based on 24 paychecks and use the two extra ones for things I’d have to dip into savings otherwise (larger car repair, 6-month insurance payments, yearly subscriptions and memberships, for example, as well as some discretionary spending on hobby and non-urgent household items).

    2. Allison*

      For me, having everything in writing or Excel helps with anxiety. I can see what dates money comes in and what dates money goes out. Really helps me keep track of everything.

    3. Rosie*

      Budget based on 24 paychecks a year if possible, and treat the extra 2 as “bonus”.

      Write down a schedule of when bills are due, and how much they usually are, and how much you need in your account before those dates — so that you can refer to it when checking your bank balance. That helped me a lot with the “where in the month am I??” concerns when switching to the biweekly schedule.

      1. Snailing*

        This was going to be my advice too. It’s 26 vs 24 paychecks and year, so most months will still have 2 paychecks that just don’t fall neatly on a specific day (1st, 15th, 30th/31st). Instead, start shifting to think about the day of the week that you’re paid versus the date of the month, and treat the extra 2 paychecks like a surprise bonus twice a year.

      2. LC*

        Yep, that’s what I was going to suggest too. It’d be harder if you were more paycheck-to-paycheck, but that doesn’t sound like the case.

        That, plus auto-payments for absolutely everything you can (including between accounts if necessary, like I put most of my paycheck directly into my savings account and have transfers set up to my checking account just after payday, ymmv but that works well for me), making sure the date each month works for what’s in your account + the due date. I know some people like to have one date right after payday or once a month to pay everything, but I like to pay them as I get them. Feels like it keeps my balance more stable, which is good for me.

        I think with those two things, it’ll make the mindset change a lot smoother.

        1. LC*

          Oh! And set up text alerts with your bank for things like large deposits and large payments. That way you can have a sense of when your paycheck comes in and when big bills are paid without having to actually go look at your account.

          Just like how I have automatic payments set for when I get my normal bills, this helps me feel like my balance is more stable and that I consistently have a good idea of what’s going on without having to actually go check. It becomes normal, automatic, background type knowledge, making it less of A Thing.

        2. Pay periods and budgets*

          You are correct, it’s not a paycheck-to-paycheck issue, just a psychological one. I have a lot of anxiety about money even though I know I am doing better than most people my age.

          It seriously had not occurred to me to deposit most into savings and “pay myself” out of that account into checking to better match my expense due dates. I think this tip will help immensely and I am so grateful that this sub has helped with so many ideas.

    4. Colette*

      The main thing is to think about payments that automatically come out on a specific day (like mortgage or car payments), and make sure you allocate the money from a previous paycheck. If you’re used to getting paid on the 15th and the last day of the month, you probably have automatic payments set up that way, so make sure you switch your thinking on that.

      Personally, I never know how much I have in my account, but I have a spreadsheet that is always updated, with money that is required but hasn’t been removed yet listed as having been spent so that I don’t spend it on something else.

      (My sympathies, a former employer announced that they were switching and there were almost riots in the halls.)

    5. MissGirl*

      I loved biweekly and don’t like twice a month. I actually have a harder time budgeting for twice a month because it isn’t consistent. Sometimes I get paid before the weekend around 12 days between and sometimes after which is closer to three weeks. That weekend throws my budget all off.

      I love getting my paycheck every two weeks on the same day. That becomes my budget evening and I spend an hour going over it all. I also like that twice a year I get an extra paycheck.

      1. The Rural Juror*

        I’ve never minded being on the 1st and 15th schedule. However, in our case, it’s actually the last day of the month and the 15th. Our direct deposits go on a Friday if the pay day falls on a weekend. I think it helps that the weekends weren’t going to mess up the schedule and the funds are always available on the 1st.

      2. Fran Fine*

        I loved biweekly and don’t like twice a month. I actually have a harder time budgeting for twice a month because it isn’t consistent.

        Yes! This is my problem with it as well. I wish I could go back to biweekly, but that would mean going to an hourly role from salaried at my current employer or leaving altogether.

    6. Saffie_Girl*

      I just base everything off 2 paychecks a month, and set payments up for the 1st and 15th. This way there are a couple 3 paycheck months for extra money for non-recurring items. Honestly, I would approach it the same way you would with the semi-monthly paychecks and try to stop looking at specific dates of pay and due dates.

    7. Littorally*

      The one big pitfall with biweekly pay schedules is they can play havoc with autopay if you don’t keep a pretty good cushion in your account at all times. When you get paid in the month will vary widely and you can’t rely on always getting your paycheck before an auto-debit on the 14th or whenever. If you are living leaner for any reason, or if you’re the type to scarf extra funds into savings as quick as possible, it can mess with you.

      The biggest emotional thing with biweekly payment cycles IMO is developing a different mindset around the fluctuation of money. Instead of thinking in a monthly cycle, thinking in a two- and four-week cycle will tend to develop — “this is a fat Friday, this is a lean Friday. These are bills this paycheck will cover, these are the bills the next paycheck will cover.” There is a little more looking ahead required for biweekly, I think; you want to stay aware of where your next four or six paydays will fall at any given time.

      1. Pay periods and budgets*

        Yes, this is my anxiety! I do try to put extra into savings. I think I still keep a big enough cushion in savings that dollars will be okay. But knowing the numbers will fluctuate a lot more, I will be paranoid about having too much or too little in my accounts at a given time. “Did something extra get paid out?” or “Did something NOT get paid that was supposed to?”

        I really like the “Fat Friday” vs “Lean Friday” tip.

        1. Littorally*

          I’m glad you like it!

          To be honest, I keep as few autopays as I possibly can, and what does auto-bill generally goes on a credit card so I don’t get hit with awkward overdrafts when things are lean. Then, once the paycheck comes in, I sit down and pay everything that comes due before the next paycheck.

          In a way, to me it seems a lot easier. I just run down the list of due bills and pay everything that hits before X date, and it’s a part of my Fat Friday routine.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            Same. I don’t do autopay other than things like Netflix; I’m used to getting paid so little that I have to juggle.

          2. A Feast of Fools*

            I put everything that can be paid by credit card on my credit card because I like the miles and cash back. I pay my credit card every single day (i.e., go to Sam’s Club, get $35 in gas and $100 in groceries and supplies; come home, unload car, log into credit card site and make a $135 payment).

            Only my car payment, car insurance, and mortgage come out of my checking account.

          3. Been There*

            I do very little autopay because I want to check that the bills that come in are correct. Companies can mess up too.

    8. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      I just made the reverse switch and hate it. I miss bi-weekly so much. It was so much more consistent. I got paid every other Friday. So what I did was I paid every bill 4 weeks apart no matter where it hit in the billing cycle. My credit card might not be due until the 20th of the month, but I always paid it on Friday A. The electric bill always gets paid on Friday B. I could also use this to balance my bills so one check wasn’t all bills and the other is light.

      1. Alligator*

        This is what I do, too – I pay certain things with the first check and others with the second check. Some of your due dates may also be flexible (credit cards?) so you could shift to really early in the month or really late in the month to help balance it out.

    9. Ozzie*

      I have a spreadsheet I use to track my budget, and it includes a section that notes how much money I have remaining in the 1st half of the month.

      I get paid every other week, and structure my budget based on 2 paychecks = 1 budget month (vs calendar month) to make it work around rent, basically. (We don’t get paid on the 1st and 15th or anything, just every other Friday, so it ends up not working with calendar month)

      I track it fairly diligently (it was VEY diligent when I was learning how to budget), but basically, it keeps track of total expenditure (I have it broken out into food budget, personal spending, savings, bills, etc), but also tracks how much I have spent vs how much was deposited in the first paycheck, to ensure I will hit all my marks in the first half of the month, so as not to overspend.

      If you have a little wiggle room in your budget, you can also keep some buffer money in the account, in case you have an expense in the first half of the month that would spend past that first paycheck before you get your second. (the size of this cushion varies depending your spending habits/billing habits)

      The key is knowing when any auto-pays will be pulled, and having money in there to cover it. You can make note of these dates as well so you’re keeping track, or simply deduct them from the spreadsheet ahead of their payment, so you’ve already accounted for them in your spending.

    10. Teapot Repair Technician*

      Have your paycheck deposited into your savings account and set up an automatic semi-monthly transfer from savings to checking.

      The amount you transfer should be about 1.086 times your paycheck.

    11. Person from the Resume*

      I don’t think about it all. You just need to keep enough of a cushion floating in your checking account to not be overdrawn.

      When starting off you need to note if there are times of the month that you pay a bunch of expensive bills that might be problematic if they come up right before you get a paycheck (note what you think the max amount might be), but generally just have keep enough of a cushion to not have to think worry about it.

    12. The Dude Abides*

      Ask your employer how they are going to handle payroll deductions for health insurance, retirement, etc.

      At one prior employer, they made this switch several months before I joined, but no one changed the contribution amounts, so there were several months where people had extra money taken out that shouldn’t have been taken. This snafu was found around the same time that I figured out that the retirement contributions were also screwy, in that people were not getting their employer contributions raised upon hitting anniversaries, and at a more basic level, the amounts we were pulling out of paychecks were not matching what was actually being remitted to the retirement funds.

    13. RagingADHD*

      Set up a recurring calendar appointment to tell you when payday is.

      Look at your budget and recalculate all your categories to be annual / 26 instead of annual / 24. I have an excel spreadsheet that converts all my expenses to monthly, semimonthly, biweekly, and weekly, so no matter how often they actually occur, I can see how they impact the budget.

      If you are getting paid the same amount, your budget will still work just fine.

      1. WoodswomanWrites*

        I second this suggestion for a spreadsheet. I’m paid every two weeks and I’ve set up my spreadsheet for monthly paychecks and bills that include two pay periods of four weeks. In mine, I separately list the two pay periods a year that are third paycheck of the month. I budget those separately to save for specific annual costs like car and renter’s insurance, donations to nonprofits, etc. I also mark the year’s paydays on my calendar, which is helpful.

    14. AuroraPickle*

      Change your automatic payments to match your new pay cycle. So if you were paying your car and your mortgage semi-monthly, call up your bank or go online and switch it to biweekly to match your payroll.

      For the odd thing that can’t be paid biweekly, allocate a portion of each biweekly pay to that monthly bill. I have a separate account just for those things with automatic biweekly and monthly transfers. You’ve for a cushion so if the three pay day month isn’t for awhile, no worries. Those months will replenish the little bit of cushion.

    15. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I split my paycheck via my work’s direct deposit. Every two weeks, a sum equivalent to half my standard monthly bills is the first chunk of my paycheck allocated into an account that I only use to pay the bills. Then some other savings chunks are deposited to various places, and then everything that’s left over goes into my “everyday spending” account. All the bills are auto-paid out of the bills account, and I don’t touch it except on three-paycheck months, when I decide whether I want to leave part of the newly-deposited “third half” in there as a cushion or move it around to savings or whatever.

    16. TotesMaGoats*

      When I started my last job I was switching from biweekly to monthly pay checks and it was terryifying because that was NOT disclosed at all until I was signing paperwork my first day. We managed to make it work because I got a vacation pay out from my job before that and the timing of my husband paychecks. So, I totally understand the sweating!
      I second writing it all down somewhere. You could also consider moving some money from savings into checking for a bit to ensure there isn’t a gap.

      2. DistantAudacity*

        Very interesting to see the discussion here, as a monthly paycheck is the norm in my part of the world :)

        But it’s all about what you’re used to, I suppose. Everything is tied to a montly cycle here: paychecks, morgage payments, utilities, etc, so it all ties in.

        Are costs/utilities/bills normally on a twice a month (or every other week) schedule, to tie into the paycheck patterns?

        1. All Het Up About It*

          Monthly paychecks are far rarer in this part of the world. (And probably where the original commenter is located as well) – but as I commented below the job I worked where we had them, changed how I budget my money and DRASTICALLY reduced my stress levels around it. I found that when I was budgeting bi-weekly, it still felt like I was living paycheck to paycheck even though I technically wasn’t because I always had “fun” money and money in savings. And it is because the majority of bills here are tied to monthly cycles, like you talk about. If you just make sure on the last day of the month you have enough money in your account to cover all the bills that come out the next month, whether it’s on the first or fifteenth, then it doesn’t really matter. I love it!

          1. Pay periods and budgets*

            Yes, I’m in the US and I only know of one person that gets paid monthly, but she works in higher ed, which we all know is an exception to everything.

            I’m also someone that uses my credit card for all my daily expenses and then pays off the balance once the statement comes due, so I think this is another reason why the biweekly is a difficult psychological adjustment. Those that use cash or debit are having money float in and out daily, whereas I only have large chunks taken out of my account at given periods. It’s going to be an adjustment for sure. It’s great to see everyone’s system!

        2. Person from the Resume*

          Everything except paychecks are tied to a monthly cycle here. Rent/mortgage and bills are due monthly on a specific day. Since my paychecks come every two weeks, the paychecks don’t align with the billing cycle.

          I’d personally be fine with a monthly pay check, but lots of people probably budget better if they get paid biweekly or even twice a month.

    17. Silence Will Fall*

      I adore You Need a Budget! I’ve been using it for years now, but I started because I was going from getting paid semi-monthly to bi-weekly. It really helped me visualize my budget, especially as I had this weird paycheck gap because of how the company handled the switch. You can do the same thing with Excel, but the $49 annual price tag was low enough for me to skip setting it up myself in a spreadsheet.

      1. knitcrazybooknut*

        You Need a Budget changed my LIFE. I am not kidding at all. My husband and I had a decent system, but we never seemed to be able to save any money.

        You Need a Budget has a bucket system that allows you to designate money for expenses, and you can EASILY see what you have, what you still need to set aside money for, etc. In the first three months of using it, I saved enough money for a new dishwasher. It sounds crazy but it’s true.

        It’s an online system with an available app. I’ve done the transition you’re talking about, and I think using a tool like this would really help you. I’m not a promotional sponsor, either, just someone who loves this tool.

    18. Donkey Hotey*

      Count me as another that prefers bi-weekly over semi-monthly.
      I have to note that I have zero auto-pays, specifically because of this setup.
      But then again, my check hits my account Tuesday morning at 7am and all of it is allocated, paid, etc by 7:15.
      Good luck, and enjoy those two “bonus bonuses.”

    19. JT*

      If you are already used to having a cushion, it really won’t affect you too much. I usually have a cushion of at least one month’s costs in my account, pay my bills all on the same day, and know that my mortgage payment (also biweekly) comes out the week after payday.

      The best thing about biweekly is that twice a year you get a bonus 3 pay days in one month! It feels like extra money.

    20. All Het Up About It*

      So for a few years I worked a job where we were paid once a month. It caused me to develop this method and even now when I’m paid Bi-Weekly I keep it up, and it is SO less stressful than budgeting every two weeks. I follow loosely a zero based budget method with a simple google docs sheet and go month to month. At the end of the month (or last paycheck of the month), whatever is in my account, is what I have available to spend for the upcoming month. Then I budget that out, “paying” all bills in my spreadsheet first. (Some of these are autodraft and they are color coded that way.) I know that what ever is going to come out of my checking in August is already covered by what was in there on July 31st. Any money I get in August is going to cover my bills in September. I review my checking account about once a week to make sure nothing insane happened, like being hacked and to update my spreadsheet to make sure that everything that came out was the planned amount, etc.

      Also, I do all my non-regular bill spending on a credit card that I pay off each month. That way even if I end up going over my allotted fun/surprise expense money for the month, I can easily pay that extra from savings instead of worrying that my autodraft for a car payment is short because I had to pay the mechanic for a new alternator. That might not work for you depending on how much you trust yourself with a credit card. I also list all credit cards/special accounts in my spreadsheet, even the ones I use rarely, so I can be sure each month to double check if did I spend something on them or not. This is literally the most stress-free budget method I have ever used.

    21. hack in training*

      I get paid biweekly and also had a hard time mentally figuring out how things worked at first! What I ended up doing was setting up a separate checking account for all my bills (rent, utilities, etc.) and sending a set amount from each paycheck (half of the total of my bills) straight into that account. Everything is on autopay from that account, and then I know the money in my main checking account is what’s available for spending. More work on the front end, but much less anxiety-inducing for me now because I don’t have to do any math day to day!

    22. Moths*

      It sounds like there have been some great options already proposed here! I’ll add on what I do, which works for me, but may not work for everyone. Like others though, I’ll reiterate that if you can plan for 24 paychecks and have those 2 extra that come in on 3-payday months be considered “bonus money”, that’s easier to budget around (in my opinion). Plus, it’s a nice way to boost your savings or pay down extra on debt!

      I’m also lucky to have a decent cushion built up, so it’s a little less stressful than potentially having an overdraft if a surprise expense gets posted. I keep an Excel spreadsheet with my budget and I always do my budgeting on the last day of the month (or at least close to that), but always on/after my final paycheck for the month has come in. I have all of my recurring expenses listed and on that day pay any fluctuating expenses (e.g., credit card bill, student loan payment because I pay extra on that any month that I can). I also plan out my budget for the rest of the month at that time. I have listed what days different expenses should come out on, so that I know about how much I should have in my bank account at any given point. Anything left over, I transfer to savings, though I always leave some extra in my account as a buffer. Basically, I’ve switched to once monthly budgeting, so that I always know I’m good until the end of the next month. But then keep an eye on my account during the month to make sure things are tracking like they should. It’s a little harder since the paychecks can come in on different days, but I always know about where things should be at this way.

    23. Not So NewReader*

      I am not sure if you can do it now, but years ago I called my credit card company and asked that the due date be at the end of the month. This way I paid the biggest bill after all the checks were in for the month. That helped me to worry less.

      At my current job I got switched from once a month to every other week. I actually ended up with a little bit more because they take out less taxes on a smaller check. You may end up with an additional buck or so.

      Do you use Excel much? For something like this I’d create a hypothetical chart- showing the pay dates and the amount of pay each month on a bi-weekly basis. That way I have a visual of what to expect. As each pay date goes by you can check it off so you can see your progress. (I am super visual. I am doing this with my mortgage now that it is down to less than 2years.) On your chart you can leave a blank column where you can write in the balance in your checking account or a comment about how you think things are going.

    24. beach read*

      Overdraft protection from your savings and/or line of credit can be good piece of mind. Your bank can help you with that!

    25. ronda*

      if you want to you may also talk to your mortgage company about making bi weekly (perhaps additional) payments.
      Some people do this to pay down their mortgage faster, but it might be nicer for you to smooth your expenses if it would make you less anxious.
      some mortgages won’t allow this, so check if they do, dont just start sending in extra payments.

      I haven’t heard of it on car loans, but it can’t hurt to ask (I am assuming these are your biggest ticket regular payments)

      As others have said, most companies will set you up with the monthly payment date that you want, so plot out your new paycheck dates against your scheduled payment amounts and see if you want to change the timing of any of your payments to better align.

  18. Karrie the Keebler Elf on a Shelf*

    I’m applying for an internal promotion so I have to submit my resume and fill out the job application, which includes a work history. The work history includes an area for job description. I have just redone my resume to match Alison’s advice to focus on accomplishments from previous jobs. Should the work history include the exact same accomplishments that I list in my resume under each job, or should it only be a description of the job responsibilities?

    And any other advice from successful internal applicants? This is the first opening since I graduated with my master’s, and I know that I can do the job. I think the biggest concern from the hiring committee will be that they would have to fill my current position which is slightly more specialized.

    1. Ace in the Hole*

      Depends how much room the application has. If there’s only space for a sentence or two, leaving accomplishments for the resume is fine. If you have buckets of space on the application, add everything that’s on the resume.

  19. Paloma Pigeon*

    Curious: There is a ‘Show the Salary’ movement in the nonprofit space to urge employers to list salary ranges in job postings. I admit more and more I’m less enthusiastic about applying to an opening if I don’t see the salary listed. The job description has to be really perfect, vs. in the ballpark, without a range. Does anyone else feel this way lately?

    1. Empress Ki*

      Yes I have never bothered applying for jobs that don’t state the salary. I also work for the non-profit sector. Salaries are nearly always listed.

    2. Ace in the Hole*

      This is a big part of why I’ve mostly had government jobs. I won’t apply to a job that doesn’t list a pay range unless I’m desperate… even if it sounds awesome.

      As far as I’m concerned, the ONLY reason for not listing compensation in the job posting is if they are hoping to pull one over on an unsuspecting candidate who doesn’t know what the job should be worth. That’s not something I want to participate in or condone in any way.

      1. Allypopx*

        Seconded. Especially if they say the salary is “competitive” but don’t list it. Far too many nonprofits expect people to sacrifice liveable wage for the opportunity to do meaningful work and I’m not here for that.

        1. Siege*

          “Meaningful work” is often “a billionaire’s tax write off”, so I don’t even buy the meaningful work argument anymore. If it’s so meaningful, pay for it.

    3. AuroraPickle*

      I don’t like when salary isn’t posted but don’t hate waiting to find out what the range is during the pre-screening call. Nothing wrong with deciding at that stage you don’t want an interview. It’s a two way street.

    4. Pikachu*

      Yep. Not playing that game anymore. I can’t count how many opportunities I’ve probably blown asking for salary up front, but whatever. It doesn’t help that recruiters post bogus job titles that sound much more senior than they really are. Waste of time.

    5. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I keep trying to convince my university to list salaries in job postings. No dice so far, and I’m worried I’m expending too much capital harping on it. But like. Our salaries are public record! We’re a public university! Can’t we save everyone the trouble and just list them?

    6. SyFyGeek*

      I think it would be great to know the salary before I decide to apply or not. I now post jobs on a couple of job specific boards- as in every job posted is in the same field. And they require at least a salary range to be included. It saved so much time and energy in the interview process vs. the applicants that came through our website with no knowledge of the salary.

    7. Siege*

      Yes. I work for a not-for-profit and make about $80K. Most non-profits in my city pay $50K as the high end for my job, and a number pay $40K-$45K. (As a note, in my city if you are single with no dependents and make less than $70K you are very likely underwater, and the only thing that keeps me in the lifestyle I have is that my rent is an easy quarter of market rate without roommates; it’s still mostly tiny luxuries like coffee a couple times a week, rather than routine vacations to Bali.) I’m not willing to take a $30K pay cut for anyone, and I’m extremely unwilling to go to the effort of tailoring an application for a position where I don’t know that the salary is reasonable. This is why my next move will likely be into government work (or possibly one of the unions that pay six figures for my role; I currently work for a union) because they disclose the salary.

      At this point, a perfect job description includes the salary.

    8. cubone*

      A local AFP (assoc. of fundraising professionals) has refused to share any job postings that don’t include salary. I really like these types of rules and think it does a lot for setting a better standard for the industry.

      My last non-profit (a living nightmare) was open internally that the reason they didn’t include the salary was that they knew it was low for the area and would prevent them from getting “quality” applicants.

        2. cubone*

          oh amazing! Hilariously a senior development exec at that last non-profit was chair of the local AFP chapter and got called out on Linkedin by fellow fundraisers on shared job postings that didn’t include it. That org still doesn’t include salaries (and the senior exec still works there), I wonder how that’s going with their AFP role.

    9. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Yep. I am well paid so I will only even think about applying if I know they’ll meet my salary requirements (which most roles don’t). I am pleased that I was able to convince my boss to convince HR to show the salaries for our open positions!

    10. AnonymousHOU*

      I absolutely agree. I have an application floating for a job that seems exciting, but has no salary range, and some anecdotal numbers on Glassdoor. I plan to ask about range if offered a phone screen, but won’t move forward without it.

      When my university launched its new ERP system last month, the internal side (for current employees) includes the pay grade but not the *actual salary range* for the job. It’s somewhat helpful, but I don’t get why that information isn’t available on the non-employee application site. It’s not a substitute for a salary listing though – $35,000 to $69,000 is a HUGE range.

      1. Ace in the Hole*

        Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but isn’t the pay grade synonymous with salary range? At every public employer I’ve worked for, the salary range at the job was whatever the pay table says for the grade(s) of the job, with the assumption that most candidates will start at the lowest step and get annual step increases until they max out.

        Of course, I’m also surprised that a single grade covers $35-$69K. Usually the top end is more like 20-30% higher than the bottom end… not literally double!

    11. Elizabeth West*

      Yeeeessss omg, just tell me what the job pays. If it’s not what I want/need, I won’t bother applying.

      /mini-rant
      It makes me so mad when companies make applicants jump through numerous and arbitrary hoops because they want to hire the right person but won’t even talk about the most important thing upfront. Such a waste of time on both sides. Most of us work for money so we can pay for goods and services, not because we love them. It’s a business transaction, not a romantic relationship!

    12. JT*

      100%
      Most of the time I don’t even look at a posting if the salary’s not listed. The only reason a company has for not providing a salary range in a posting is for the chance to pay someone far less than what they budgeted for.

      1. Siege*

        That’s not true, it’s also because they budgeted under the average for the field or location and want to get away with it. :P

    13. quill*

      Admittedly I am VERY outside your industry but during last job hunt I found myself even more dismissive than before of jobs with no salary info. To me, it’s a pretty sure sign that they’re looking for the cheapest possible candidate.

    14. Stitching Away*

      Entirely. There’s not one reason other than to scam potential employees out of wages to not post a range.

      Have you seen the increasing number of job ads for remote jobs in the US that say “open to all except residents of Colorado”? I cannot wait to see those lawsuits, I hope those companies get taken for everything.

        1. Stitching Away*

          No, it’s not, you can’t discrimminate based on residency in one state, and one state alone.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            Yes, you can! That’s not illegal. Employers routinely decide not to hire anyone in California, for example, because of California’s workplace laws.

  20. Anon Today*

    HR People – I’m wondering if this is the new normal:

    In the last 2 years my HR department has locked off the elevator so that you cannot get off on their floor (elevators open to a lobby area, and all offices and sensitive paperwork is behind locked doors) and made it so that you must have a appointment to talk to HR in person.

    I assumed that this was in response to covid, but when I asked was told that, no, this is the new normal for HR departments nationally. I was surprised because we often are told to go to HR to pick up paperwork, or to come see them if a badge is not working. Is this the current practice and I am just out of touch?

    1. ferrina*

      I’m not in HR, but that is NOT normal. My current HR (and every HR at every small to midsized company I’ve ever worked at) has their own section that is accessible to everyone. They have an open door policy because they WANT people to use their expertise. They have locked filing cabinets, but haven’t locked themselves down. That’s ridiculous.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I worked somewhere where the HR Director did not like people and required that HR be moved to their own private floor in the building. They claimed that it was for confidentiality, but it was fine for Medical Records and Payroll to be on public floors.

      1. Chocolate Teapot*

        I work in an open plan office but HR is one of the few departments with a separate locking office. They also have fixed opening hours when you can visit them.

    3. Snailing*

      Sounds like it’s just nationally for your specific company, but it doesn’t sound normal at all to me. I would think it would actively hurt HR’s relationship with other departments!

    4. Sparkles McFadden*

      My long time employer always had HR behind locked doors. You could get to the reception desk, to pick up generic forms and whatnot, but someone would have to come and fetch you if you had an appointment.

    5. A Simple Narwhal*

      That’s really weird. We have floors you need to use your badge to access via the elevator (actually it’s all floors except our reception floor since we share the building with a few other companies), but none are locked to prevent internal people from accessing their own coworkers, and especially not HR. Our HR is actually on the only floor you don’t need a badge to access.

      So aside from what my company does, don’t most HR people try and give the impression that their door is always open? This is literally opposite from that, they’re actively shutting people out.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        My old company restricted visitors to the lobby unless they had an escort and badge (we even had to badge babies, seriously) and blocked access to certain spaces based on your department. Employees could walk right into the HR person’s office. This seems very strange to me.

        I get that it’s probably related to confidentiality and maybe there was a problem that pushed them to restrict access, but it’s not a national norm that I’m aware of. Small businesses definitely don’t do that—many of them wouldn’t have the space.

    6. MailGal96*

      At my company, access to HR’s space is badge only and you need an appointment to meet with them. They had to give me access though since I deliver their mail. :)

    7. HRChickie*

      I was going to say this is very odd, but then I remembered that I’ve worked in both “closed” and “open” environments. At a previous job the entire HR department was behind a locked door that only HR badges would open. Then Benefits was actually in a locked room WITHIN the department that only Benefits badges would open (due to the medical records/confidentiality stuff).

      But the job after that, and the job I’m currently in – we’re in the open. One job had HR on its own floor, so you could kind of tell if someone was on the floor who you wouldn’t want to hear your conversation, but my current job we’re just part of cube world.

      Honestly I like HR having their own closed-off (but not locked-off) space, or their own floor of a building if that’s your setup. Everyone should be able to get to us, but there are often conversations that have to be had and if meeting rooms aren’t available and you don’t have an office, it helps to be able to know that random employees aren’t just wandering by and can hear you.

    8. Choggy*

      My company HR department has an open office but also separate room that is locked when no HR staff are in the office due to the sensitive files housed within.

    9. AnonymousHOU*

      All of our administrative functions, including HR, moved to a new building a few years ago. Their setup is the exact opposite – all of the floors in the building are access-restricted (because open offices) *except* for the HR floor. During normal business hours, anyone can get to the HR floor without badge access. Otherwise it would be infeasible to process new hires, walk-ins from current staff and students, or literally any other HR business.

    10. Donkey Hotey*

      No, not “normal.”
      It’s tragic to say, but if you’re in the US, I would say that’s more a “shooting prevention” thing than a “sensitive information” thing.

      1. Stitching Away*

        It’s more likely HR trying to do everything they can to not be accessible to employees.

    11. JustaTech*

      I mean, there’s only one HR person in my building, but she has the same silly glass-fronted office as everyone else, on a common hallway. (The glass is frosted half-way up, so if you’re sitting you’re not visible, but that glass provides zero sound insulation.)

      Then again, under previous management, we had no HR people at all in our state, so this might be part of the new management’s “accessibility” drive.
      But like, sometimes you need to talk to HR about time-sensitive stuff? Or really low-key “I need a form” stuff. It’s weird that they’re so inaccessible.

    12. Anonymous Koala*

      In my state (NC) this would probably be illegal; companies of a certain size are required to maintain ‘open door’ HR policies with at least one HR rep available to see people without appointments during business hours.

    13. I'm just here for the cats*

      URGG this sounds like one of my old companies and it is messed up! You need to have access to HR!

      The HR people (all 2 of them but later just had the one) along with the Great grand Boss (don’t remember his title) and Operations managers (grand bosses), and the training person all had their offices in a back area that you had to badge into. Only Managers had the ability to badge to the back. The really messed up thing was that by the time I started at 3 the HR person was usually gone. We didn’t have email or any way to communicate with anyone else. The only way to talk to HR was to have your manager reach out letting you know that you wanted to meet and then he would let your manager know or he might come grab you. This was always tricky because once he grabbed me when I was coming back from break. Told me that my manager knew, but no one changed my status from break to meeting. So I got chewed out and docked points for the month for unapproved time or some shit.
      Obviously this is problematic because you want to be able to talk to HR without having to go through your direct boss. So when I needed to get FMLA I had to talk to my manager first. And of course they need to know why so they can tell the HR person.

    14. Malarkey01*

      At my large office you can get out of the elevator into an elevator lobby and there’s a collection of forms that you can take outside their suite. Everything else is behind the suite doors and you have to ring the bell to be admitted and need an appointment. Our office does have an open HR phone line where you can call anytime during working hours to discuss a situation and get an appointment if needed but they don’t want drop ins.
      Our place is very large and there’s no way they could get their work done if they also had everyone dropping in and couldn’t schedule appointments. Maybe it’s the difference between large places and smaller operations?

    16. Sharon*

      Sounds like this might a way to comply with data privacy laws re collection of personal information. I work at a large corporation where several departments are locked down like this.

  21. H*

    So my workplace emailed this earlier in the week due to COVID “Departmental leadership determined that we will continue at 3 says per week for the rest of August (as opposed to increasing to 4 days as previously stated). ” Luckily my supervisor is somewhat flexible (we don’t work in the same building). I have only been going in 1 day a week since they told us we have to start coming back…anyone else kind of doing their own thing below the radar haha

    1. Pam*

      We were supposed to return 2 days/weekly at the beginning of July- increasing to normal at the beginning of August. I had medical leave, and got it extended to keep me home a while longer.

    2. Lizzie*

      Yes. the plan was, one day a week the last couple of weeks in July, then two in August, then after Labor Day back to “normal” whatever that may be. MY bosses however have said one day for now is fine, and there is a good chance i can still WFH 2-3 days a week even after “normalcy” returns.

    3. Malarkey01*

      We were suppose to start transitioning back to hybrid after Labor Day once the kids went back to school (it’s still have here to find school age daycare this summer), but this week announced we’re now shooting for January. The plan was rewritten 2 weeks ago.

  22. References question*

    I have a question about references! I left a job of 2 years a few years ago and left on good terms. I got along great with my manager (who is a very important figure in the company) and everyone who worked there. However, during my exit interview, I gave HR some feedback about my boss that was pretty critical. I don’t want to give away my anonymity, but he always brought up a topic at work that was offensive for people who weren’t into it (nothing racist, religious, or sexist or anything like that, it was a sporting hobby).

    I went into detail about things he said and that he wasn’t approachable to discuss it with him. I know HR spoke to him because I asked one of my coworkers if he still brings up said topic, and she said he never did it again.

    I’ll be job hunting soon, and I don’t know if I can use him or another woman who worked there as a reference. The woman was VERY close with him and she was always on his side when I brought up how I hated him talking about the topic. I know she is upset about it because I asked her to lunch about 2 months ago and she completely ignored me (and we were super cool when I worked there and got along great).

    Should I skip them as references? Should I tell the companies I apply to (when they ask for references) to not contact this company for a reference due to some things I mentioned in my exit interview? I don’t want to come off dramatic or anything, it was a huge deal and I’m glad I told them.

    1. ferrina*

      This doesn’t feel like a big deal, but if you aren’t sure, see if you can grab (virtual) coffee with him. Tell him you’re job hunting and looking for a position that offers [WHAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR IN THE NEW JOB] and ask if you can use him as a reference. This is best practice anyways. If you get weird vibes from him, just don’t list him as a reference (you don’t need to tell him, he’ll just assume that no one bothered reaching out to him).

      I feel like it wouldn’t be a great move to tell companies not to contact this company- that is a lot of drama for what should be a minor issue. Asking not to contact your current employer is standard, but not to contact a previous employer speaks of bad blood. Curious what others think on this

    2. LTL*

      I’d skip the woman since she ignored your lunch invite. As for your boss, perhaps you could reach out and say that you were wondering if you could ask him to your reference list and does he feel he would be able to provide a positive reference for you?

  23. AndersonDarling*

    I would like to create more buzz around my work and I’m considering using LinkedIn Posts or maybe a blog. Has anyone shared knowledge this way to bolster “their brand.” I figure I would have about 2-3 dozen articles on specific topics. I’m in a newer industry so it would be good knowledge to share, but the articles would be longer and require visuals so I don’t think that is what people use LinkedIn Posts for.
    I’m not interested in making money, just networking, finding a job better suited to my strengths, and I really like writing and sharing knowledge! But I don’t want to spend $$$ for a blog that I won’t be interested in maintaining after a few years. Any suggestions?

    1. Nela*

      If you’re just testing the waters, LinkedIn or Medium seem to be good places to share writing.
      Medium now has a limit for free readers, but they have “publications” you can submit your articles to for additional exposure.
      I wouldn’t necessarily discount LinkedIn due to the articles’ length, and you can plug images just fine in the editor. Imprint is a newer alternative to Medium, but far less popular. Imprint also supports custom domains (not sure of the cost).

      Personally I’d always rather publish things on my own domains, but if you don’t think it’s that valuable to you to justify the cost, I get it.

    2. Caboose*

      Does your industry have any community groups on either LinkedIn or Facebook? I’m not sure which industry it is, but I’ve found some of these groups to be amazing for networking. Even if there’s no good groups, I’d say to find other people in this industry and follow them where they post stuff. Approach interactions with your peers not from the perspective of “God, I hope these people can help me find a job” but from the perspective of “I hope I can make a friend who shares my interests so we can talk shop!”.

      Tumblr, last I checked, was still free, although you’d have to pay for a custom domain to look professional.

      If the visuals required would work well in video format, it might be worth putting the information into a video on Youtube, honestly! There’s whole swaths of channels dedicated to just…sharing interesting information. You’ve gotta present it in an engaging manner, and know how to cut out industry jargon to appeal to the average viewer, but it’s an option!

  24. Mr. Cajun2core*

    What should a cover letter contain? Previously, Alison has stated that it should not regurgitate what is on your resume but should say why you are excited about the job. However, in a recently article the author pretty much stated that a good cover letter should state why you are qualified for the job (which is usually on my resume). If I tried to do both, I would end up with a 2 page cover letter!

    Thanks!

    2. AndersonDarling*

      If your qualifications aren’t clear, then I would put them in the cover letter. In my case, most of my great achievements are from 4 jobs ago and a recruiter wouldn’t likely scan that far down my resume, so I call them out in the cl.
      I think of a cover letter as a brief conversation I’d have with the recruiter. If I had 30 seconds to talk, what would I bring to the recruiters attention to show them that I am interested and qualified?

      1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

        Yes yes yes, applicants to help me out by saying “here are three things I do well that are part of what you’re looking for” or basically the TLDR version of an interview, that’s so helpful.

        And brief is right, I’d say the biggest way most people can improve their cover letters is to shorten every paragraph by 2/3 and consider removing one of them entirely. Pique my interest, show me you have enough of the goods that it’s worth talking to you. Make it easy for me to want to move forward and get to know you more.

    3. not a doctor*

      My approach (which I think helped in getting me my current job) was to essentially merge the two: to explain what parts of the job I thought I’d really enjoy and excel at, based on my own background. For example: “I was excited to find a role with a focus on teapot design, because while teapots haven’t always been in my official job description, I’ve always managed to find a way to bring them into my work. For example, at Job X, incorporating teapots helped me achieve Accomplishment A.”

    4. londonedit*

      A cover letter should expand on your CV/resume, and relate your experience to the job description for the job you’re applying to.

      So you’re not looking to just say ‘For the last five years I have worked at Llama Grooming Inc as Assistant Groomer, and I have been responsible for booking in llamas for grooming, assisting the Lead Groomer and ensuring llamas are returned to their owners in a timely manner’. Because those things should be the bullet points on your CV. You’re looking to say ‘Over the last five years I have gained experience in llama grooming through my role as Assistant Groomer at Llama Grooming Inc. Working for such a prestigious company has given me an excellent opportunity to hone my skills – I have been able to expand my role to include assisting the Lead Groomer with brushing and hoof polishing, and I also run the booking system for appointments, where a keen eye for detail is needed in order to give our clients the level of service they expect. Having had the chance to learn more about llama grooming, and to experience working hands-on brushing llamas and caring for their hooves under supervision, I now feel ready to make the move into a more senior role, and I feel that the position of Llama Groomer would allow me to make the most of my growing experience while allowing me to further expand my knowledge’. So you’re looking to give the context behind your skills and experience, and you’re looking to show how they’ll fit with what the company is looking for.

    5. Iris Eyes*

      What qualifications do you have that most strongly match the job description and that you are eager to use? Maybe a sentence or two on why you are interested in the company and then another few about the job itself and how it fits with your experience. You are just highlighting why you are interested in this job at this company and why they might also be interested in you. Not a full blown persuasive essay just a general why you, why them, why now?

    7. Little Beans*

      I have a paragraph about why I want the job, and what about this particular job interests me more than other jobs out there. Then I explain why I would be good at the job but I focus on the intangible things that are not so easy to convey on a resume, and I include a couple very short anecdotes that aren’t really accomplishments but just illustrate a bit more about my working style.

    8. Actual Vampire*

      The way I think about it is that the cover letter is the argument and the resume is the evidence (or the source that’s being cited). The cover letter should explain the conclusions you want someone to come to when they read your resume. So for example, when applying to be an Accessible Teapot Design Consultant, the cover letter might say “I have 20 years of experience designing teapots for a range of users, from babies to Olympic athletes. I am well-versed in the specific design challenges that can affect a customer’s ability to use and enjoy their teapot.” That’s all stuff that could be gleaned from the resume, but you don’t want to rely on the reader doing the work to figure out how much experience you have and how diverse your experience was.

    9. Generic Name*

      Your resume is the dots, your cover letter is the line connecting those dots. Unless you’ve only ever held one particular job that uses the same skills, tools, processes, whatever, and you’re applying for that exact same job using skills, tools, processes you’ve always used, most hiring managers need you to spell out why your past experience makes you a great candidate for the job you’re applying to.

    10. WoodswomanWrites*

      In response to your comment about a two-page cover letter, that can be appropriate in the right context. My work involves writing, and my cover letters are now two pages and demonstrate my ability to write. In one case, an interviewer told me my cover letter was among the best she ever read. Another time, the interviewer said they didn’t need me to submit a writing sample as they typically would because my cover letter was strong. So the one-page limit isn’t universal if there’s a reason why a longer letter would be compelling.

  25. A. Ham*

    How much cushion/benefit of the doubt do you give for people late for a job interview, before it becomes a deal breaker?
    I know things happen, but here I am sitting waiting for a candidate that was supposed to have an interview 12 minutes ago…
    (I may be soft when it comes to this because I remember a time when I was frantically trying to get to an interview and ended up being late. They were extraordinarily understanding, and I ended up getting the job. but I also called when I knew I wasn’t going to make it on time. there has been no call today.)

    This is for a part time job, if that changes your answer.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      For me, it depends on traffic and transport more than anything else.
      If you’re in a place with lots of traffic and difficulty finding parking, or where transit systems get bollixed up, I’d give more leeway.

      Also, please consider your physical location and signage. I was late to one interview because of the way the building and parking lot were laid out. It was not clear at all where the front door was – the building was originally set up for multiple tenants, each with their own entryway, and I had to hike around the periphery until I found the actual door.

      1. The Rural Juror*

        This happened to me at an appointment recently and really stressed me out! The parking lot was at the back of the building, but none of the doors were accessible without a code or keycard. I had to go down a hill on the driveway to get to the front and was cutting it close! It would have been nice for them to suggest I find street parking out front instead.

      2. The Prettiest Curse*

        Yup, I was once half an hour late to an interview because there was no obvious entrance to the building and nobody was picking up the organization’s main phone line, which was the only phone number I had. They did eventually rouse themselves to answer the intercom and let me in after I started buzzing business names at random.
        I was practically crying with frustration, especially when they told me I wasn’t the only person to have difficulties getting into the building! (They did not send me any instructions on who to contact if I couldn’t get in.)

        When I was sending interview confirmations to candidates in a later job, I always included a number they could call if they were running late or couldn’t get into the building, not only to help the candidates but also to make things easier for the interviewers. So I think it takes work from both sides to avoid this type of screw-up.

      3. Elizabeth West*

        This happened to me once when I got to the building and the elevator was out of order. I had to hike up the stairs. There was no way for me to know this prior to arrival. I was only a couple of minutes late and apologized profusely. I didn’t get the job but I have no idea if that had anything to do with it.

        If it looks like I’m going to be late, I call as soon as humanly possible.

      4. beach read*

        Yes!!! I once passed a building 3 times because it wasn’t clear as to how to get in to the parking lot. It was also in a different state that I lived in. I was super late but still got the job.

      5. The New Wanderer*

        This is a surprisingly common problem! Happened to me three separate times and no one had thought to warn me about how to find the entrance or what to do when I got in if it wasn’t immediately obvious.

        For bigger companies with multiple buildings, make sure the candidate has the right address. I showed up a bit early to the wrong building and they had no idea what I was doing there. We managed to figure it out but I ended up being 20 minutes late to the right location (part of the figuring out process was calling the one contact I had, which went to voicemail because they had left to go to the conference room for my interview!).

    2. Whiskey on the rocks*

      15 minutes-ish. All my candidates have my phone number, so 15 minutes without communicating is really pushing it. If you can’t be on time (which mattered in that job) and communicate, this isn’t the job for you.

      1. JustaTech*

        My only, only caveat to that would be if the candidate calls you/shows up after the 15 minute window and explains that they didn’t call because they were driving and there wasn’t anywhere safe to pull over to make a call.

        Making a call while driving a car is a primary offense (ie, you could be pulled over for it) in my state, unless you can use voice-activation and a hands-free set. I would much rather someone explain that they got lost/stuck in traffic and didn’t want to risk making a call.

    3. Colette*

      If they haven’t called to tell you what’s going on, I’d write them off. If they’ve been in contact, I might give them more leeway based on the reason. (“I hit some metal on the road and my tire went flat” would get more leeway than “The traffic is terrible” – unless the traffic is really unusually bad today for some reason.)

    4. Alice*

      Depends on what they have to say when they eventually show up and/or call. It could be that they say they had a medical emergency and they’re in the ER, or some other extenuating circumstance. But yeah if they show up late without calling beforehand, it’s not a good sign, especially if they act cavalier about it.

      1. ferrina*

        Agree. If you have a great reason, great interview, are timely in the rest of the process and have great references (and I will ask references about punctuatlity), you can come back from it. But if you aren’t profusely apologizing/in the ER, I will write you off.

    5. Saffie_Girl*

      I try (not always successfully) to wait to see what they say. Having a flat tire in a cell phone dead zone may be legit. Other general ‘oh sorry’ may not be. Tells you a lot about the candidate though, either way!

    6. LTL*

      It depends on what they say when they arrive. I think the tricky thing about calling when you’re running late is that there’s the person may be driving.

    7. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I think it depends on the situation and the role. If it’s an early-career type job at an office in the city where there may be parking or transport concerns, I’d be more lenient. I’m about to sit on an interview panel for a mid-senior fundraiser at my university, where we provide a campus map and parking is plentiful, and we would likely count any tardiness against a candidate – but that’s because this job is all about getting to meetings in strange places and you have to know how to get there on time!

  26. Expiring Cat Memes*

    Ever been paralysed by extreme job hate?

    I’ve been pulled in to help out while recruitment is underway for an additional temporary role in our team, a role I’m being “strongly encouraged” to apply for because my contract ends soon, they think my skills would for be advantageous and they want to keep me on. The work is a stretch for my experience, into work I have no long term interest in, but would benefit from a better working knowledge of. It’s a few months, so I figured why not broaden my skill set while I keep an eye out for new opportunities?

    I was enthusiastic to learn the ropes at first, but now I just hate it. Have trouble getting out of bed level hate it. Oscillate between heart-palpitating level imposter syndrome and general frustration kind of hate it. Did I mention I hate it? ‘Cause I f**king hate it.

    It’s not inconceivable that I could quickly learn, like and do well at this job with good guidance. But the new manager I’m reporting to is notoriously chaotic, difficult to contact and doesn’t communicate well. A lovely, highly skilled and experienced person whom I do respect, but who is just not a good manager of people.

    The role is at least 60% stuff I have zero experience in, and I don’t know what’s expected of me or if I’m demonstrating remote competence so far. I’ve been totally thrown in the deep end, providing advice to the executive level on sensitive issues that I don’t feel qualified to do. I have trouble un-muting myself in the meetings because my hands are shaking so badly with the nerves and stress of it all. The times I’ve managed to speak to the manager to ask for guidance, the best I’ve gotten is a brain dump of everything going on in her head, whether it’s related or not to anything I asked, for a brief couple of minutes before she’s off to do something else.

    If I don’t apply for this job, I’ll likely face a period of un– or under-employment. Which isn’t the end of the world, but not what I want either. (And yes, I’m also applying for other jobs, but pickings are slim at the moment). In time I guess I could figure the job out on my own, or find other people to lean on for guidance. But right now, I haven’t been able to write a single word of my application to the job I’m already doing because I’m completely paralysed with hate for it. How on earth am I supposed to explain why I want this job or would do well at it?

    Advice? Commiseration? Funny distracting stories?

    1. Mr. Cajun2core*

      Unless you need the job for food, clothing, and shelter, don’t apply for it. It isn’t worth your health. Speaking from 1st hand experience here. If you do take the job, continue looking for other jobs.

      1. Spice for this*

        YES, I agree with Mr. Cajun2core.
        I have had HATE for my past job and I speak from experience also and have seen things get worse before getting better or never getting better at companies.
        Can you freelance for a while after leaving this job? Do you have $ saved and can you use savings for a while until you find another job?
        You have to take care of yourself and make selfcare a priority. Stress can affect so many different body systems and cause huge damage. You got to put your health first. Good Luck!

    2. CatCat*

      Commiseration because I am at a place where I hate half of my job. Could probably improve if I had better training and management over the work, but I grown to dread and hate the work so much that I don’t see myself coming back from that because it has taken a toll on my mental health.

      Advice: don’t apply to keep doing what you hate if you can afford not to.

    3. Blossom Fowler*

      I have hated jobs in the past but it’s usually because of the people. It sounds like what you hate is the not knowing if you’re doing it correctly. You mention that you are stressed because you are providing advice to the executive level – is there someone on the executive level that you could approach and explain that you need training and/or guidance before you will apply for the position?

    4. StrikingFalcon*

      If you can afford a period of unemployment, I would not apply for the job. You hate the work, the manager can’t or won’t provide you the support you need to excel, and you are miserable! I’d go back to your former manager, let them know that you’ve realized that the open position isn’t the right fit for you right now, and you’ve decided not to apply. If you lose employment due to the end of a contract, my understanding is you would qualify for unemployment benefits, but since they also are encouraging you to apply to an open position, you’ll want management on board with that decision. If you can’t afford a period of unemployment, put together something to apply (it doesn’t have to be great or perfect) but keep job searching, and just do your best at the new role in the meantime. Good luck with your job search!

    5. BB2*

      Commiseration. I am in a similar situation to you. New job i have never done before with zero training. The line you wrote ‘It’s not inconceivable that I could quickly learn, like and do well at this job with good guidance.’ is what I think about every day. I want to be good at my job! Please give me some guidance so I can succeed!

      My therapist asked me that the other week. What evidence do you have that you are not doing well in your job? I have no evidence, no one has talked to me, I have not dropped the ball, I get my work done. My expectations of what I think should be done/how I should be doing it are not reality. Reality is that whatever work I am doing is fine with everyone around me. That mind shift along with just caring less about my job has helped for now.

    6. foolofgrace*

      If you don’t take the job, you’ll be out of a job. If you do take the job and fail, you’re no worse off than if you hadn’t taken the job. And on the plus side, things might work out with the job, especially if, as other say, you can approach someone at the executive level about getting training. Plus that would give you a buffer if you mess up — they’ll have been warned. If you do take the job, try really hard not to take it home with you. Good luck!

    7. Expiring Cat Memes*

      Thanks everyone for your kind and thoughtful responses. I needed to hear the advice about prioritising self care. I have a savings buffer, I just haven’t wanted to dip into it as I’m saving for a house. But there are far more important things in life than money and stuff! Unfortunately going to exec isn’t an option. It’s a large hierarchical organisation and the job reports through a different chain, so it’d be weirdly out of step to go around the manager sideways and 4 levels up.
      I am going to make an effort to take a big step back and disinvest myself though. I still have a couple of weeks to decide what to do, and if I’m still feeling this way I’m going to do the right thing by my mental health and not spend my weekend writing the application and hating on life.
      Thanks all for being so lovely and I hope you have a wonderful weekend.

  27. Coffee Owlccountant*

    One of my direct reports resigned this morning and now I have to write a job description for a unicorn. Anybody have any good unicorn-job-description recommendations?

    One caveat – I would LOVE to post the salary but our HR will not permit it for all the usual BS reasons that loads of companies won’t do it and will not be swayed, so count that one out.

    1. Rosie*

      Be really clear about requirements vs “nice-to-haves”, and which things are needed out of the gate and which can be taught on the job.

      1. ferrina*

        This! Keep in mind that white men are way more likely to apply for “stretch jobs” than other groups, so be clear on what you need, what is trained, and what is a nice to have/can be shifted to someone else.
        Really think about the core skills of the job- do you need someone experienced in kitten hats, or do you need an experienced knitter who is comfortable knitting in the round? This will help as you evaluate resumes too- I once posted for a junior project manager and hired a guy that had no project manager experience, but had managed logistics in a military position. High pressure, low resources, and managing a million moving pieces? Yep, those skills served him really well in the new position.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        The phrase “or equivalent software package” got me through screening for one job I loved & excelled at. (And only left because I was marrying someone in another state that my company didn’t have tax exposure in.)

    2. irene adler*

      Know what skills you are willing to impart to the new hire (i.e. via training). You don’t have to state this in the job description; but don’t make in-house training skills a “must have”.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      Be clear on what the job is rather than a bunch of bullet points of qualifications. “This role will take the lead on Lama Programing Development. They frequently speak to community leaders and conduct research in lama feeding. They are responsible for x,y,z and suggest improvements.”
      And I’d also be really, really sure that the qualifications are using correct terminology. So many times I’ve passed on jobs only to be contacted by a 3rd party recruiter for the same job because the recruiter talked with the company and figured out the real terminology for the position.

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Can you mentally reframe this so you aren’t hung up on the ‘unicorn’ thing?

      There’s a scene from Moneyball that comes to mind. You aren’t trying to find one person to replace this outgoing employee. You’re trying to replace the sum of what that employee did. Can you transfer some of the unrelated tasks to an existing employee? Are you sure that those unrelated skills and tasks are really necessary?

      1. Teapot Repair Technician*

        Agreed. If your org chart includes a position that can only be filled by a mythical creature, see if you can make the org chart more realistic.

    5. Pikachu*

      Are they already gone? If you have a positive working relationship, could you ask them to help? The last job I left, we were parting on good terms so I helped them out by basically writing a big list of all the things I did on a regular basis. Then they could use that list and decide what responsibilities sense for a replacement and what things maybe should be absorbed elsewhere.

    6. Generic Name*

      Instead of trying to recruit another unicorn that has the same knowledge and skill set as your outgoing employee, take a look at the work that needs doing, what skills and experience a candidate needs to be able to accomplish that work, and write a job description for the work that needs done. Sit each of your direct reports down and ask them if there is anything that your former employee did that they might like to do more of or learn how to do. A person leaving can often be an opportunity for other staff to grow in their careers. Once you’ve done that, figure out where the gaps are and you’ll have a good idea of the job opening that you have.

    7. Siege*

      We’ve started framing job postings as what you need when you start, what you’ll do in the first month, what you need to know by the third month, what you’ll do through the third month, then six months, then a year, and then cover the oddball stuff where you’re doing an annual event that happens in February with (this time) likely less than four months in the role. We’ve only hired a couple positions that way, and the second one just got back this week from parental leave, but the feedback we have is that it’s better than a bullet point of all the duties/skills anyone thought of. It means we’ve got time to help you write the legislative agenda because you need the people skills to recruit the legislative committee first.

      I’ve seen that done similarly but more succinctly (because this does make about a four-page description, and I am not kidding at all) by listing the bullet points with percentage categories – ie, you’ll spend 65% of your time doing X, Y, Z, 20% of your time on P, Q, R, etc. We chose our method as a way of increasing the diversity of our application pool because so many people who aren’t white men hesitate on “stretch” jobs.

    8. AnonymousHOU*

      I have a for-the-future recommendation. On my team, I am seen as the “unicorn” who has a ton of both institutional knowledge and nuanced skills. I’ve been in some version of my current role for almost a decade, which is longer than most of the other staff have worked here. My current boss made it a priority a few years ago that I create an operations manual for our team, to prepare for the day I eventually win the lottery/get hit by a bus/change jobs.

      I would HIGHLY recommend this for anyone who is or who manages someone with a catch-all job like mine. The operations manual doesn’t have to be incredibly long, but should be able to point to mission-critical things and how they should be covered or who can provide training. For example, I worked with our database team to create a bunch of specific queries/naming conventions/processes. My successor doesn’t need to know the nuances of how those are built, but needs to know what they are called and who to email on the database team for training or temporary coverage. I’d even include things like “YOU MUST CHANGE OWNERSHIP OF THE SHARED DRIVE BEFORE BOSS QUITS OR ALL THE FILES WILL BE DELETED WHEN HIS LOGIN IS REVOKED.”

    9. Mockingjay*

      Identify which of the unicorn’s duties are basic requirements and which ones are things that they picked up along the way or naturally evolved as next step in process.

      You’re probably hiring for the first and hoping for the second.

    10. Mental Lentil*

      I always try to break it out into skills, knowledge, experience, attributes. And then after that REQUIRED, a lack of which is a deal breaker, and then DESIRED/OPTIONAL, which is not a deal breaker.

    11. Caboose*

      This is probably a minor thing, but make sure your line breaks and formatting work on all sites!

      Not having a salary posted is already going to turn away a lot of “unicorns”, unfortunately, but having a posting that’s just a wall of text full of buzzwords and incorrectly-formatted bullet points is definitely going to turn away everyone else. Unicorns have a lot of options for jobs; make them understand why *they* want to work for you.

    12. The New Wanderer*

      My colleague just shared with me a job posting that is clearly looking for a unicorn. It’s in our field but under responsibilities they list literally everything that anyone who works in our field *might* do, but they sure as heck wouldn’t be responsible for all of it. I could easily name six people responsible for the core duties in this post, each of them working full time. From the post it seemed like they were looking for one person to do it all, which came across like they had no idea what each responsibility really involved. That can be a recipe for burnout or disappointment, but never success.

      So as others have noted, please be very clear that while the scope of the role might touch on these things, the core requirements are a much more reasonable and limited set.

  28. Anonymoose*

    Any tips for a federal Zoom interview?

    I’m currently in state civil service so I know it’s probably the same standard format, have to ask all interviewees the same questions, etc. But any other things to prepare for? Do the KSAs specifically get discussed? (not the general topics but the actual questions) TIA

    1. Policy Wonk*

      Depending on the grade of the job, there will be standard requirements, and specialized requirements. If there are any required specialized or technical qualifications, focus on those. And where possible give specific examples of how you did x or y that shows that you meet the requirements.

      And it should go without saying, but please check how everything looks on screen. What looks good in the mirror may look washed out or different on screen, and a messy background can count against you even if it’s not your mess.

      Good luck!

    2. FED SES spouse*

      Look up the STAR and CCAR interview models. That is how you should be answering depending on the level you are interviewing for.

      Just like other interviews, it depends how much the want to tell you about KSAs or the job in general, you may/may not be able to ask questions. Like other gov jobs, you will be asked the same questions, will be pretty formal.

      Check out the usajobs and fednews reddit threads, you may be able to find people who talked about interviews for the same job. Good luck!

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I did a Zoom federal interview this past spring. I was asked a standard set of questions that could have applied to the junior version of the position as much as the senior version (my role would be senior). At the beginning of the interview, the host introduced everyone and then explained the ground rules – questions would be asked by each of the panel members and they’re happy to repeat any question but would not be able to provide clarification or ask follow up questions of me. I was told to answer as fully as I could and to indicate when I was done. (Incidentally I did this by stopping talking and sitting back rather than saying “and I’m done” or any verbal cue, and that seemed to be easy to convey over video.) I don’t think any of the questions referenced the KSAs specifically, but they were all either field-specific or “tell us about a time when this challenge happened.”

      The formal question and answer part took up just over half an hour, leaving me 15 minutes to ask my questions. I had prepared a bunch just in case, by looking at the various websites (the interview setup included links so they definitely expected me to be familiar with those sites), and I think we actually got through all of them. That part of the interview was much more conversational and relaxed, which was good. In the course of those questions, I was able to reference a few extra things about myself and my experience that hadn’t fit neatly into any of my previous answers.

      Good luck!

    4. RosyGlasses*

      There is actually an interview prep class next week that you can register for via usajobs for what to expect in a federal interview. Good luck!

  29. Lady Meyneth*

    I just finished a job interview, and it seems to have gone really well. But the final question was “How many tennis balls can you fit into a limo?” This is for a senior engineering position, so my brain was like… WTF?

    Fortunately, I’m still not sure I really want this job, so I wasn’t at all nervous on the interview. I just kinda laughed and told them it depends on wether they want the limo to move or if I could put balls in the driver’s spot too. Then said I’d have to research limos internal sizes, but I could get back to them.

    I never had an outrageous interview question before, so I wanted to share!

    2. LTL*

      Brain teasers make for horrible interview questions. But interviewers ask them to see how you think, so it’s not about getting the right answer but watching how you go through the question.

      1. Constance Lloyd*

        I was asked a ridiculous question like this in an interview for a retail position. After I was hired they admitted they ask those to see how graciously the applicants respond to absurd questions when they’re supposed to be on their best behavior. That was one of the worst jobs I’ve ever had, but that’s probably more because it was retail!

        1. Lady Meyneth*

          I was in retail for a little while through college, and considering the amount of carzy and ridiculous questions customers ask… yeah, I can see an absurd question being very valuable on a retail interview :D

      2. LC*

        I’ve asked and been asked questions like these (although at least a little bit more related to the job) and I think they can be useful if /b> the interviewer actually says what the point of the question is.

        “How many tennis balls fit in a limo?”
        vs.
        “We’d like to get a sense of how you approach questions that you won’t immediately know an answer to. If we were to ask how many tennis balls fit in a limo, walk us through your thought process. What questions you would ask, what information you would need and how you would find it, etc.”

        (Unless they just really want to see how you respond to oddball questions out of the blue about something completely unrelated to the asker or current situation. Then, sure, go with the first one. That sounds awful though.)

        1. LC*

          *sigh.

          My kingdom for an edit button. Sorry for the formatting fail, I thought I’d gone back and gotten rid of that extra space.

        2. Siege*

          Yeah, we recently hired for an admin position in my organization and one of the questions we put in the interview was specifically flagged as there being no one right answer, the problem posed was intended to be unsolvable, and we wanted to know what steps the applicant would go through to solve the problem. The situation was a combination of a document that needed finalization and distribution in the next fifteen minutes to avoid triggering OT for the employee, an extremely ambiguous clause in the key point of the document, unreachable staff in the comms department, and a board meeting first thing the next day.

          The applicants who decided they could solve the problem by ignoring one or more of the components of the situation were not well-ranked; the applicants who requested permission for OT (which we grant pretty freely), sent a clearly-marked “DRAFT” copy of the document to the board, noted the discrepancy in the covering email, or contacted the org president (appropriate in our context) got ranked up. We could have done something similar by asking an unrelated question like tennis balls in a limo (and I like your framing here) but we got something very usable from describing a plausible, no-perfect-solution scenario.

          1. AcademiaNut*

            See, that question makes sense in the context of the job. You get a sense of their ability to troubleshoot problems, and their knowledge of what kind of responses are appropriate.

            How many tennis balls in a limo tests someone’s ability to do back of the envelope geometry problems. I wouldn’t be fazed, because I work in a field where doing that sort of calculation is actually useful.

            The OP says they told her to research it and get back to them, which is even more bizarre, unless they actually like filling limousines with sports equipment.

            1. Lady Meyneth*

              “The OP says they told her to research it and get back to them…”

              Just to clarify, they actually didn’t. I offered, kinda jokingly, and they said it was alright and they’d just note my answer on the spot. It would have been extremely bizarre though, and would definitely make up my mind to run.

      3. Admin of Sys*

        Yeah, this, though they’re often done really badly. I had a manager who would ask something about navigating with a sextant, which had such a wild amount of assumptions about base knowledge and context it was insane. His argument was he wanted to know how you went about finding information about something you’d never heard of before, but my view was that even in highly specific industries, there’s usually /some/ level of shared context.
        I like asking about the driver’s seat! If I were inclined to ask those sort of questions, I’d give you extra points for thinking outside of the box, and considering the purpose of the request rather than just the technical details. But the response about you looking up limo size is weird – it sounds like they almost expected an actual numerical number, rather than a process walkthrough.

    3. Coder von Frankenstein*

      In theory, this type of question is supposed to provide insight into how the candidate approaches unexpected situations and goes about solving novel problems.

      I believe Google pioneered the approach of asking stuff like this. Then they analyzed the results, determined that it didn’t work, and stopped doing it. By then, however, it had established itself in the universe of “One Weird Trick” questions beloved of managers who don’t know how to evaluate candidates.

    5. AuroraPickle*

      I would have said, “well, it depends on the size of the limo or maybe it’s a toy limo and the real question is, how many limos can I fit in the tennis ball? And also, who’s birthday is it?”

      Your answer was much better.

    6. Pam*

      Does the limo have a moon roof? Otherwise, you would be limited by the height of the window you are pouring the tennis balls through. (Cue those videos where someone booby-traps a medicine cabinet with marbles)

    7. Marie*

      That type of question used to be extremely common in tech. I got “how many piano tuners are there in ?” and “Why are manhole covers round?” The idea is to see how you reason out an unfamiliar problem and if you are willing to estimate based on what knowledge you do have. Google was famous for asking how many ping pong balls could fit in a schoolbus. But they’re BAD questions. They don’t correlate with job success. There are better ways to see how someone approaches an unfamiliar problem.

      The famous/big-name tech companies like Microsoft, Facebook, and Google officially stopped using brainteaser questions 10-15 years ago at least. But occasionally employees at those companies will use them for reasons I do not understand. A lot of smaller tech companies still use brainteasers because they’re either copying what they experienced when they were working in big tech or because big tech used to use them “so they must be important.”

      I think your answer was great. I’d be cautious of a team that’s still using brainteasers. It would make me worry that they aren’t up to date on other practices in the industry.

      1. Lady Meyneth*

        Those questions were never too popular in my corner of the world, so I guess I never expected to get one ever. But this company is a humongous O&G giant, one of the world leaders, so at least I don`t have to worry about them having too many outdated questions.

        It’s actually an awesome opportunity, would be a promotion and probably come with a lot of benefits. The only reason I’m not sure I’d take it is the commute when WFH is over (it’d double from my current office), so I’d need at least partial WFH locked in contract before I commit.

      2. David*

        At some point I heard that estimation questions, like the piano tuners and ping pong balls ones, were supposed to test a person’s ability to break down a difficult-sounding problem into components which are easier to tackle individually. Like with ping pong balls in a limo, you can break it down into (1) estimate the volume of a ping pong ball, (2) estimate the volume of a limo, (3) estimate the ratio of those two. And then each of those tasks can be broken down further into things like estimating length, width, and height, or rounding numbers to powers of 10 before dividing, or whatever. The actual numbers involved wouldn’t matter, it’s all about the process. Given that, it makes some sense that people would have thought those questions were testing some kind of useful technical ability – at least, before there was real evidence to show otherwise.

        I never understood the point of things like asking why manhole covers are round, though. The main “skill” that seems to test is having heard the same question before.

    8. quill*

      It’s so weird but I wonder if they are screening out snap-estimators in favor of people who take practical considerations like “does it need to be safely driveable” and “what model of limo?” into account?

      Because I have unfortunately met a lot of “future engineers” in my time who may have been good at math but were very, very bad at practical questions. One of them built a crooked set piece because he forgot that 2×4’s have width, etc.

  30. Whiskey on the rocks*

    I have an interview on Tuesday with an organization I’ve wanted to join for awhile. It is the first interview, but I’ll be meeting with the branch manager, the regional manager, the director of operations, the director of HR, and the CEO! It’s a management role that reports to the branch manager. First, I haven’t interviewed in over 10 years. Second, I’ve never had a panel interview. So I’m a bit nervous how this is going to go. I feel like that panel is more of a second or even third interview, and I won’t be comfortable asking some of the more mundane questions I have that the CEO doesn’t need to be answering. I know it’s possible that some of these people won’t end up attending, or for the entirety of the interview. How do you prepare for panels like this? How do you make sure you get to ask all your questions when this doesn’t seem like the right audience? What else should I be thinking of to make a good impression and not get intimidated??

    1. ferrina*

      Remember that you are interviewing them too! I’ve found that this makes me more confident and the conversation flow smoother- I’m not trying out for a role, we’re chatting to each other to see if this is a good business partnership.

      For your more mundane questions, you can simply say “I have a couple questions about [MUNDANE THING]. Who would be a good person for me to chat with?” Most reasonable companies will be happy to guide you.

      1. Whiskey on the rocks*

        That’s a good phrase, thank you. I’m going to write it down on top of my list of questions.

    2. SyFyGeek*

      This may seem outdated, but take enough copies of your resume, with cover letter, so you could hand a copy to every person if you needed to.

      Without fail, there’s always one panelist who doesn’t have access to your info during the interview. Being able to hand over a hard copy for them to look at, or take notes on has come in handy more than once.

      1. Whiskey on the rocks*

        It’s not outdated! I did actually have an interview a couple weeks ago (for a job I was pretty sure I didn’t want, it was good practice and went well). The interviewer was trying to pull up my resume and was pleased when I handed him a hard copy. I was debating about the cover letter also, but I think I will now that you’ve said it.

        1. JustaTech*

          I had this be the saving point of an interview, when I got to the interview with several copies of my resume only to discover that somehow the university system had sent this group my very first ever resume from when I was a week out of undergrad.

          Granted, knowing that they were interested in interviewing past-me and not present-me rather ended my interest in the job (I had advanced a *lot* in the interim), but they were all terribly impressed that I had paper copies of my resume at hand!

    3. Workerbee*

      I love panel interviews because I treat them like I, the applicant, am instead conducting a live survey of the company. They are here to answer my questions just as much as I am to answer theirs.

      One of my favorite questions to ask is about company culture. Throwing out a “What are the internal politics like here?” and paying close attention to everyone’s expressions, how answers are phrased, and what isn’t said, can help uncover red flags.

  31. Sled Dog Mama*

    I work for a company that provides services to other companies on a contracted basis. Generally 1 or 2 employees are assigned per site and work onsite at each place we provide services. I work at site A 4 days a week and site B 1 day a week. At Site B there is a second person (we’ll call him John) who is there 5 days a week (so most weeks Site B has 6 person days of coverage). When John takes time off I usually go to site B to cover for him and our Boss comes to site A to cover for me. Site B is about 1:30 drive from home for me and site A is about 20 minutes.
    Boss and I are in the middle of a huge 3.5 month push to get 2 major projects completed. Project 1 (at Site C) started in July and solely belongs to Boss, it is currently scheduled to wrap up around Sept 1st (assuming they stay on schedule but they have used up all the buffer in the original schedule). My project at site A kicks off next week and is supposed to conclude about Oct 18th. John has been aware of both these projects for at least 6 months (they both had a huge amount of work leading up to our portion which is the last critical stage).
    The last week of July John emails me and boss saying he’ looks at taking some time off in the next few months and wanted to check what was reasonable before putting anything in the system. Then he listed off 3 separate times he wants to take off. 1 week in august (which he is flexible with), a four day block in September and a second four day block in October before my project concludes. My initial response was you are out of touch with reality. But I calmly emailed back “hey, here’s my current project schedule so you (he and Boss) know what’s going on here.” Neither of us heard anything about this from Boss until Aug 4th when he said that John could have the week of August 16th, Boss wouldn’t be able to cover for me but Jane was going to come up and cover for me. Jane was at Site A temporarily a few years ago but has never been at Site B. He wants to send her to the site she’s more familiar with, which would be fine except that it’s been years since she was here and I’ve updated a lot of procedures and there have been a lot of other changes.
    Now I’m not particularly happy about this because as part of the project at site A we have a software upgrade happening that Friday-Sunday and a major hardware delivery on the Saturday and I should be there the whole week prior and after. But Boss isn’t worried and says me being there the week shouldn’t be an issue. This is also highly disruptive to some of the things I do outside work for my mental health but I knew about that when I took the job (I just thought John was a little more considerate with scheduling).
    So I dutifully informed the director at Site A that Jane would be there to cover for me on dates X-Y and could we please check with IT to ensure that her computer credentials were still active. Director is NOT happy about this, she immediately emailed both me and boss back that she did not find this acceptable at all. I’m not responding to this at all because that’s Boss’s place (I don’t have the authority to cancel John’s PTO or tell Jane that she has to cover for John).
    So I think director is in the right here, but who’s out of touch? John for asking for 3 weeks off (with very little notice) when he [should] know there’s a major project that makes it difficult, or Boss for deciding a) that John can take the time and b) that it makes more sense to pull me from my site the week before a huge upgrade than to figure out getting Jane up to speed at Site B.
    Also how long do I wait without Boss replying to Director before I poke him that this needs to be addressed ASAP. He’s not good about reading and responding to emails during the day so he may not respond until after hours and Director tries to detach from work over the week so may not see a Friday evening response until Monday morning. I am in a training class (for the new hardware we’re getting) all week next week so I will have limited ability to respond to things.

      1. lasslisa*

        And if you haven’t mentioned to your boss that you think it would be another for Jane to come up to speed on site B while you roll out the projects at site A, do that. He doesn’t know things about your work that you haven’t told him. Don’t belabor the point but it’s worth a mention that you think accommodating the director would be possible and also smart for the team.

    2. should i apply?*

      I will caveat this with I don’t work at a contracting firm. However, in my personal experience, little notice is any where from 1 day – 2 weeks. I am assuming that this is his vacation to use, and isn’t something like an unpaid leave. I would be pretty upset if I couldn’t take my vacation that I had earned, and especially the Sept / October requests aren’t short notice.
      It sounds like the larger problem is your company doesn’t have the flexibility / staffing to cover employees vacation. Unless I am missing context, like this is the accountant version of tax season where everyone know there isn’t vacation.

      1. JustaTech*

        Agreed. It would be nice if John realized that you can’t cover for him until your projects are done, but on some level that’s not his problem, that’s Boss’ or Director’s problem. And while the week in August might be short notice, asking in July about time off in October seems like plenty of lead time.

        And unlike if someone got sick, by giving this lead this should be plenty of time for Jane to get back up to speed and ready to take over for you or John. (Because you should also totally be taking some vacation after these big projects!)

        1. AcademiaNut*

          Prior to this, had John been given any information about what is a reasonable lead time for requesting time off, or that August through October was not a good time to take time off?

          I wouldn’t consider two to three months notice for four days off to be short notice unless someone explicitly told me so. And I find that people don’t pay detailed attention to other people’s workload unless it impact their job directly – John may have known you and boss were working on big projects, but that doesn’t mean he knows the details.

          So – I think John was entirely reasonable in requesting to take PTO, which is part of his compensation package, and if coverage is an issue, asking for the multiple times at once makes sense – that way, if he can’t get all the time off, he might be able to prioritize which is more important. Your boss could then reasonable say “You can’t take time off in October because there’s no coverage”.

          But I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect John to preemptively not request time off based on other people’s projects, unless he’s been told that in advance, or to resent him for not doing so (or resent him because your boss okayed it). You don’t want to set up a work culture where people are afraid to use PTO because it’s going to be treated as a huge imposition to request to use your vacation time, or because it’s going to upset coworkers if it’s approved.

  32. Iris Eyes*

    I am going to need to transition to our partially finished basement for full time WFH. I’m nervous about the lack of natural light in the winter and overwhelmed by all the options for making the space closer to fully finished (all my “perfect” solutions seem to come with huge price tags.) Anyone make the transition and have helpful advice?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I’m working in my partially-finished basement right now, because my upstairs office gets too hot in the height of summer.

      Some of the things to put in place you’d need regardless of whether it was a basement or not. Ergonomic chair and desk the most important.

      As far as light goes, I think desk lamps work better than overhead lights for video calls, and you can get LED bulbs with different ‘warmth’ levels for those.

      Wear warm socks (and slippers), because a bare concrete floor can make your feet really cold.

    2. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      I saw a neat trick on tiktok the otehr day – a guy who lives in a basement apartment in NY created a fake window for himself. It’s a frame with full spectrum lights and blinds that let in some light so when he has it on, it feels like there’s light coming in through the window. That might be a nice DIY that could help with the light issue and avoid overhead lights. As for fully finishing it – my method is to focus on one detail at a time and not try to finish it all at once. I like to build a space slowly over time perfecting one element at a time.

      1. Pikachu*

        If you have a drop ceiling with fluorescent lights, they make these things called Sky Panels that look like clouds and scenery rather than the usual boring plastic.

        My OB/GYN had them and it was a really nice distraction!

    3. Admin of Sys*

      What’s not finished? Some things are easier to fake or fix than others.
      If you’re looking at a concrete floor, I love the silicone mats that are slightly cushioned under the desk, they make standing and just resting your feet a lot nicer, and they insulate pretty well. Similarly, a big rug makes things less echo-y and cold.
      If you’ve got bare drywall, commit to painting, it’s not that expensive. If you’ve got some other unfinished walls (pegboard, unskimmed sheetrock, etc) priming and painting can still hide a lot of sins. But if that’s not an option, you can get privacy screens that basically amount to stand alone cubical walls, and hide the walls that way. You can get decent ones for around $250.
      For lighting, especially in a windowless location, get grow lights and some plants. You can get some pretty affordable led based grow lights and it is amazing how much the spectrum helps when you’re inside. I used to have one at my back in a warehouse and it felt warmer even though it doesn’t actually generate any heat. Similarly, green things around you (that can be kept alive by the grow lights) help with enclosed spaces.
      The other thing you may want to get is a dehumidifiers. I always find basements damp and having one really helps keep some of the mustyness away, even if you have to empty it a lot.

      1. JustaTech*

        Another floor option could be those puzzle-piece floor tiles that look like “wood grain” (from a distance) that are super quick to put down. Rachel Maksy over on YouTube used them to finish her basement studio a couple of months ago and they look pretty good.

    4. 30 Years in the Biz*

      I haven’t made the transition myself, but I think full spectrum lighting to mimic natural light would be an essential. You can buy floor lamps and it looks like you can even hang full spectrum “grow lamps” from your ceiling/joists. Home Depot (if you’re in the US) has some options. In regard to furnishings (again in the US) you can find good deals at used office furniture dealers, local auctions, Habitat for Humanity ReStore shops, Goodwill, Salvation Army, etc. I particularly like the Habitat for Humanity store. An artificial plan or two will make things cheery.

    5. Anonymous Koala*

      Sun lamps aren’t too expensive and can make a big difference. They don’t really make you feel like you’re in natural light, but somehow mine makes it easier to focus.

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      For fast wall coverage that insulates, look for inexpensive bedspreads or drapes at a thrift store and mount them from ceiling to floor. In a pinch you can nail them to the walls. If you have open basement shelving, you can hang the curtains in front of the shelves. When I move downstairs during heat waves, I do some of this. I’m considering making myself a video call backdrop out of an inexpensive shower curtain that has a forest printed on it.
      I also like having a fan in the basement office, because air flow helps more than just plants. If you have any access to a window, you can mount a couple of mirrors to direct some sun in to your area. Raiders of the Lost Ark gave me the idea.

    7. Red Swedish Fish*

      One of us works in our basement everyday since March 2020, below are some things we found to make it feel finished. The ontel light and a backdrop wall was the biggest game changer.

      Lighting: overhead light mount get the Ontel Beyond Bright LED Ultra-Bright Garage Light (check amazon) seriously this puts out a great amount of light and its adjustable for about $30. We have 4 in our 1200Sq Ft basement for about 2 years. Extra lamps too with daylight bulbs, you can’t get enough light in a basement the daylight bulbs are key. A sunlamp too if possible especially when it will be dark when you come up and go down.

      Walls: floor to ceiling curtains (blackout hides the concrete walls best) hang them from the rafters with ceiling mounts. On one wall get a photography backdrop katebackdrop.com are priced well search window.

      Flooring: depending on your budget get light peel and stick tiles or LVP flooring and a nice light rug it will feel so 1997 putting a rug over peel and stick carpet but in a basement its really a nice option when your moving around especially in the winter.

      Decor: Get some large fake plants, and put other furniture down there too so it looks like a real home or office. It felt like a basement when I could look up and see our Christmas storage on one wall, the AC, Water heater, and sunk pump on another hiding those with rolling storage carts with curtains made a huge difference.

  33. Green Beans*

    Anyone want to share terrible first impression stories? Because I have a doozy…

    For set up, I sit in a large (should be shared; currently isn’t) office with no privacy, so I frequently forget to close my door. I am playing the Olympics on the second computer in my office, have been for the whole games. I sit with my back to the door.

    The other day, I was in a video meeting with my door half-open, when I heard one of my coworkers stop by my door and loudly, jokingly say (I think as a prelude to introduction): “And here’s Green Beans, who is clearly hard at work.”
    I half turned around, said very flatly, “I’m actually in a meeting, thank you,” caught a glimpse of two surprise-response faces, and turned back to my screen to finish what I was saying.

    Well. Mentioned it to another coworker and apparently that’s the top candidate for our open executive-level position. Who would be my direct manager. To top it off, I’m not meeting the candidates and I don’t think they realize they’d be managing me/my position (they’re meeting all their other direct reports, executive-level positions, and their admin.)

    So in the likely event she gets the job, she’s getting a surprise bonus report who basically kicked her out of her office the one time she met me. Solid.

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      At a previous job, the first time I met the CFO, I was alone on an elevator violating the dress code (jeans) and dancing and lip-synching along with the Queen playing on my headphones. (Not like, crazy slam dancing, but a little mild boogie.) I had done a little spin, so when the elevator door opened, I was in the tail end of that spin with some jazz hands … and face to face with a very perplexed older lady in a nice power suit. Who made a “I’ll take the next one” gesture at me and allowed the elevator door to close again. The next time the elevator door opened, instead of dancing, I had sort of slumped down the side of the elevator wall to sit on the floor and was laughing like a maniac. (Luckily nobody was getting on there.)

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          So “laughing like a maniac” also describes my husband now, who has a multi-year history of joking that I am about as romantic as a brick upside the head. (He’s right, but if he doesn’t stop cackling I’m gonna stab him with a potato.)

    2. ecnaseener*

      Ha! I think you’re fine, you were just a little less than polite in response to (playful) rudeness.

      1. Green Beans*

        We’ll see – the candidate looked pretty shocked by my response (her mouth sorta dropped open.) But the person who was escorting her may have set up her expectations incorrectly – I could see her saying something like , oh you should probably meet Green Beans, people swing by her office all the time and it’s never an issue, so we’ll just pop in.

        That’s not actually true – people do stop by a lot, but they either make eye contact or wave to make sure it’s okay to interrupt me before they start talking. It’s just usually pretty subtle/quick because I have no privacy.

    3. Thursdaysgeek*

      Um… I hope that she has a sense of humor, because in that case you should be fine. Besides, you were in a meeting, so kicking her out was appropriate.

      I was in my cube working away, and a man came in and started talking to me. It was clear he knew who I was, and expected me to know who he was. But I had no clue. Finally, I asked him, “I’m sorry, who are you?” He introduced himself – my great-grand boss, who had sent an email the week before saying that he would be visiting. Our emails also have pictures attached, to help us know who people are.

      2. Green Beans*

        No idea if she does or not – I’ll see if/when she accepts the job! (I’m half-seriously considering just not telling New Person they’re my manager and seeing how this plays out, though. I just found out someone completely unrelated to the role was invited to a group interview when she was here, so I’m pretty salty at this point.)

        Oh, oh no to yours! That is exactly the kind of thing that would happen to me – I’m terrible at faces and definitely need in person introductions even after email ones!

    4. Mister Meeble*

      This one was so far over the line that it’s seared into my memory nearly 20 years after it happend.

      I worked in a fairly conservative office for a company that printed religious literature. Oddly, a little bit of “naughty” behaviour was tolerated, but nothing really untoward. We did have a graphic artist on staff who was, to put it mildly, rather coarse. Gym rat, muscle shirt “bro” stereotype. And he was fairly vocal about things, generally within cultural limits. he and I worked in an open area with defined workspaces, but anything said there was definitely not private.

      One day, however, we had a young lady in to interview for a typesetter position. She had rather large breasts but was dressed appropriately. As part of her interview, she was being shown around and met everyone. She was introduced to “bro” and me, and walked to the next area with the person interviewing her. Bro said to me, in a normal conversational voice that I know was heard everywhere, “Hey Meeble, did you see the t*ts on her?”

      I KNOW she heard this, as did the interviewer. I immediately admonished him with how grossly inappropriate that kind of comment was and tried my best to dissociate myself from him. I wasn’t worried about me, but didn’t want anyone thinking that I approved of such insane and inappropriate comments.

      The interviewee was hired and there was no ongoing issue with her or “bro”, who left of his own accord within a few months. The incident was not made a into big deal. In fact, it was never really mentioned again. I suspect the interviewer apologized for our resident idiot pig, but was so shocked by it as not to ask, especially since I wasn’t a supervisor or manager. I was deeply embarrassed for “bro” and for the company, though.

      3. allathian*

        Ouch, how awful. I totally understand your embarrasment by proxy here. I’m cringing just reading this.

    5. Malarkey01*

      Fifteen years ago I worked for a huge company and this particular office space was in an old building. They were doing renovations and had been stirring up the local cockroach population so we had a bit of a big issue. The new CEO of the company was doing a tour of regional office headquarters and was apparently walking through our cube farm on a tour right when I screamed (yes screamed) ROACH HELP and the coworker in the adjacent cube ran over with huge size 15 feet chased and stomped it while another adjacent coworker also screamed it’s coming this way. Bug is killed right in front of this guy and our entire leadership team and all three of us standing there, the other two said hello and I…bowed (we are in the US and not any sort of cultural reason I just went blank and bowed). He didn’t even respond, just walked away.

    6. Might Be Spam*

      Meeting more than one person at a time is a huge problem for me. I’m bad at recognizing faces and matching names. I have to recognize people by voice and the way they walk. One time two new coworkers started on the same day and when I left two years later I still couldn’t tell which one was which. I would only talk to them when they were seated at their desks which had name plates.

      1. allathian*

        I don’t have problems identifying and recognizing people I work with regularly, but we’re a nationwide organization and in pre-pandemic times, people would visit from other offices quite often and I’d have no idea who they were if we didn’t have identifying badges that double as log-in cards for our computers, and whenever we aren’t actually sitting at our desks in the office, we’re expected to keep the card so it’s visible, either fastened with a lapel clip or on a lanyard. The print is quite small, but certainly large enough to read if you’re sitting across the table from someone or standing around talking in the corridor.

    7. RussianInTeaxs*

      I have a doozy too:
      at OldJob it was lunch time, bunch of us congregated in one cubicle, watching some local police chef on a monitory, live. Some man comes through, says hello, introduces himself with his name. We all: nice to meet you? With the undertones of “who are you again and why you are on our floor?”
      Came to find out he was the president of the company, came from the headquarters for a company wide event.
      Woops.

    8. retired*

      Many years ago I worked for a large major state agency. We were all traveling for work and we were eating/having drinks in the motel where we were staying (I was in a unit of all women). A man tried to pick up one of us (she was really beautiful, really nice, and knew how to dress). When we got back to the office we found out the man was the head of our agency. Our boss sent around an email with pictures of people we might want to be able to recognize.

    9. Stitching Away*

      Think back to your interview for this job.

      Now think back to when you started. Of the people you met during the interview process, how many did you remember details about after the first week?

      You are the hero of your life story, but not anyone else’s.

    10. beach read*

      It’s an icy snowy freezing morning in the late 80’s and the doors to my Chrysler Laser are frozen shut. I try the hatchback and to my surprise it opens. I crawl through. (Yeah, it wasn’t that easy, I was wearing a skirt.) The car starts. I head to work. Almost there and the car slides on some ice and I have a one car accident. I’m not hurt and thankfully the car doesn’t seem damaged. At this point I’m late for work. By the time I get to my Boss’s office, I’m pretty shaken up. She tells me to go grab a cup of tea, take a few minutes to calm down, warm up etc. I go to my desk to drop off my coat and purse before heading to the break room and one of my co-workers comes up with a well dressed man, sits him down at my desk and tells me to assist him. (Memory is a little fuzzy, I can’t remember if she introduced him first or not). Instead of sitting down to help him, what comes out of my mouth is a decidedly un-helpful: “I was just about to go get some tea…” The well dressed man is the new operations manager and my new Boss’s Boss’s Boss. I mumble something about having been in an accident but the damage is done. I believe it was six months later I was demoted to a much less prominent position.

      1. allathian*

        Ouch, that’s unfortunate, but people are rarely completely rational after a shock like a car accident. I’m sorry your then-bosses weren’t more sympathetic.

  34. Allison Hassig*

    I am participating in the #40×40 challenge from Meghan, Duchess of Sussex. I do procurement contracts and supply chain so if anyone is interested in 40 minutes (or more) of my time and mentoring, reply to the post and we can connect!

    1. Mich*

      Hi Allison! What industry are you in? I’m currently in sales for an ingredient company and have been curious about the transition to procurement or a more supply chain role.

  35. Free Meerkats*

    Order came down from the Mayor yesterday afternoon – full masking back in effect UFN. Still allowing more than one person in a vehicle if they are all wearing surgical masks, fans set to high without recirc or all windows open. While the one person per vehicle (except transit) was in effect, it made many jobs difficult.

    But (at least Public Works) will not be going back to remote work. Darn!

  36. Cookie D'oh*

    Anyone else out there work in software development doing scrum/agile?

    I’ve been working in the industry for 20 years now and most of the time my role have been system/business analyst positions where I gather the requirements from the internal users and write the requirements that the developers use to update their code. (Like the Tom Smykowski character from Office Space)

    In my current company, my role has changed a bit. With agile, I’m a Product Owner and also the Team Coach. I used to like doing the requirements writing part, but now my role has changed and I don’t do much of that any more. I feel like 90% of my time is spent hosting meetings and asking other people to get things done and then following up with them to see if the task has been completed.

    For example, the users encountered a bug in the system while doing some testing. I had to ask the developer to review the defect. The defect was resolved but another team didn’t deploy the latest code to the test environment. Now I have to contact that other team to find out why the code wasn’t deployed.

    The developers and users I work with are in India and scattered across the US so all this is via Teams messages.

    Just a little bit of a vent I guess, because it gets old constantly trying to track people down asking them about the status of their TPS reports.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Yeah, I work in Agile Scrum. And I’ve done some stuff with remote team members (China, not India).

      So it sounds like they aren’t doing Agile well. People should be updating their cards as they do their work, just as a matter of course. The disconnect between the devs and the people who should have deployed the code to the test server is also concerning (I think Agile Scrum combined with DevOps works much better than it does without DevOps). As the team coach, you ought to have the authority to get those processes enforced better, and you ought to be escalating the consistent failure to adhere to the processes.

      1. Cookie D'oh*

        Thanks for the comment! I agree that Agile isn’t being done well and it helps to have that confirmation.

        There is a DevOps team that handles all releases to the test environment and production. It seems that some of the developers aren’t submitting build requests in a timely manner and then I don’t know about it until someone notifies me that there is an issue.

        1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          But that’s not what DevOps means! It means the devs also do the ops, which means they pay more attention to how deployments work, don’t depend on somebody else to migrate or clean up deprecated database stuff, are responsible for getting their own work into the release builds, etc.

          1. Cookie D'oh*

            In my company there is actually a separate group called DevOps that handles all code deployment to the test and production environments. We have to go through a whole process to submit build requests and meet the deadlines for code freeze, etc. The developers have their own development environment to work in, but they don’t have permissions to deploy any code to test or production.

            1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

              OK, they call it DevOps, but that’s not DevOps. Thats just Ops.

              If there’s a pattern of those people ‘forgetting’ to deploy bug fixes to the test environment, you need to escalate that too. You need to be keeping track of that – and your project management support tools should do a lot of that work for you. If there’s not a simple way to track when a change gets integrated into a build and pushed (so you can see the delay between “marked as completed” and “deployed to test”), then that’s another problem.

    2. Colette*

      I’m a scrum master. Is there a reason you have to do both product owner and team coach? It sounds like the team coach is the part you really don’t like, while the product owner (who sets the overall priorities) is closer to what you like.

      I’m also confused about why it is your job to contact a team to find out why the code wasn’t deployed. I can kind of see the mindset, but as a product owner, you are not responsible for making the development team do their job.

        1. InsufficientlySubordinate*

          My guess would be they’re calling it Agile/Scrum but are actually doing a hybrid where the Product Owner is a project manager/team coach as well.

      2. Cookie D'oh*

        We had a team coach, but he was a contractor and a bunch of contractors were laid off a while back. So I got asked if I could take on the Team Coach role as well. Of course, it’s never been backfilled.

        I end up being the point of contact for the entire dev team. The users have an issue with their testing, they create a defect and let me know about it. In this scenario, it is an issue that is blocking their testing. So I contacted the developers asking them to look into the issue and they let me know the code hasn’t been deployed and they’ll do it on Monday, but the users need the fix done today.

        I think in this case, I should have pushed the developers to work through the process of getting the new build submitted today.

        1. Brett*

          Agile coach normally requires some fairly specialized training and it not an easy role to just switch to. As well, your team should have training so that they can help shape how your team does agile rather than it just being a top down decision.

          1. Cookie D'oh*

            Thanks for saying that. I really was thrown into this role without any training. No one on my team has really gotten training on agile. We’re in this mode of working as hard as we can to get code done and delivered to production. That’s definitely more of a company/management problem setting that tone.

        2. TechWorker*

          We use agile and whilst probably not to the letter, it’s also a long way off what you describe. Users and tester submitting bug reports and devs getting that fixed isn’t project management that’s surely basic support that devs should expect to do..? I do not understand why that should go through a project manager (/team coach/whatever) at all? Don’t the devs by default have to check and respond to the defect system?

    3. Brett*

      They shouldn’t combine agile coach and product owner. What you used to do is more product owner. What you are doing now is more agile coach, because agile coach is a full time job and is absorbing all your time.

      Also, this particular type of work is awful to do remotely. It’s one of the few areas of software development that definitely gets less productive from home. And teams is not a great platform for it either. So you have a lot of things going against you.

      What you are describing involving other teams is more along the lines of scaled agile (SAFe). You should see if you can get some formal agile and scaled agile training to help you. Strict SAFe framework might not be what you implement, but there are certainly lessons to be learned there.
      Also be aware that scrum might not be the best method for your team. There are other forms of agile (e.g. kanban, mob, etc) and maybe one of those others would work better for you. Don’t be afraid to experiment and modify.

      1. Cookie D'oh*

        Yes, we are doing SAFe. The reason I’m doing both roles is that our official team coach was a contractor and a bunch of them got let go a while back.

        The company as a whole has decided scaled agile is the way to go, so unfortunately I can’t change the methodology just for my team.

        I have been through some basic agile training, but I didn’t find it helpful because it focused a lot on the “ceremonies” and different steps that work great on theory but not so much in the real world.

        I’m working in an environment with limited development resources and huge backlog of requirements because there’s just not enough people to get the work done. This is probably an issue above my level b/c we boast about doing agile development, but it really feels like they just want us to get as much work done as you can for this high priority product with only two developers.

        1. Brett*

          “The company as a whole has decided scaled agile is the way to go, so unfortunately I can’t change the methodology just for my team.”

          This should not be true. The 11th principle of the agile manifesto is “The best architectures, requirements, and designs emerge from self-organizing teams.” It is one of the 12 principles for a reason, which is explained really well here:
          https://www.scrum.org/resources/blog/about-self-organizing-teams

          This is not just self-organization internal to the team. Your team must be able to mutually establish ways of working with others teams as well, without a mandate to follow company-wide methodologies.
          Of course, you are already aware your company is not doing scale agile or agile correctly, but this could give you some pushback to advocate for self-organization and self-management of inter-team ways of working.

      2. Mister Meeble*

        I was in software development for 25+ years and transitioned to Product Owner 2.5 years ago. EVERY company I have worked for that claims to be Agile, SAFe, Holocratic, or have any other methodology or framework has — at best — only done it partially, customized it, or called an apple an orange for the sake of having some sort of name.

        The unfortunate thing is that situations like the Cookie D’oh’s tend to come about even in the best organizations. There’s a lot of skills overlap but many companies tend to ignore the finer points of what a PO vs PM vs Scrum Master vs Agile Coach do. They get lazy and figure a good PO will be a decent enough Scrum Master.

        I’m dealing with that situation now, where I was a real PO at first but as I got things in order and that role wasn’t necessarily full time, had a few other things added, and other taken away, so that my title is “Product Owner” but I do very little of that, sadly.

        The good news is that my job is ending in 2 months anyway, so I’m looking for opportunities that better match my skillset and am finding there’s PLENTY out there. And this is good news despite being a dead job. They’re giving me excellent severance, time to find a job, and help out the door.

        1. Cookie D'oh*

          Your first few of paragraphs perfectly describe my company! It helps to know someone else has experienced that as well. We say we’re doing agile, but it really feels like lip service. They don’t really give us the tools to truly implement that methodology.

          I admit I’ve thought about looking for something new, but the unknowns of a new company make me nervous. I’m also able to WFH full time and even though I’m busy, I’m able to take time off as needed.

          Good luck with your job search!

  37. Anonymars*

    I posted in the Friday thread a couple weeks ago about completely bombing a zoom interview, and got some really great advice. I’ve since had three more interviews and performed much better, thanks to the suggestions from you kind readers. What helped was writing down my answers to the most common interview questions (in addition to what I wish I had said in my bad interview), practicing with a friend over Zoom, and putting a little sticky note with a smiley face behind the camera on my laptop that I could focus on during the interview instead of the interviewer’s face (or my own).

    I’m not sure if either of the companies I’ve interviewed with since will be the right fit, but I’ve gotten to the second round with both so I must have improved!

    1. Spice for this*

      Thanks for the idea about putting a sticky note with a smiley face behind the camera. I am going to do it.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        one of my coworkers stuck googly eyes on either side of her camera, so the lens was basically the bridge of the nose.

        1. Yay, I’m a Llama Again!*

          We had a suggestion of the googly eyes and I actually really like it! It makes me smile when I see my computer ‘looking’ at me.

  38. Potatoes gonna potate*

    Has anyone here chosen their career path based on a TV show/movie/character? My chosen field (accounting) doesn’t have much, if any, representation in popular media, so this is just something I’m purely curious about.

    I usually go on forums after watching an episode and I love reading ppls thoughts on how a show accurately or inaccurately portrays a profession – so if a TV show has influenced your career, I’d love to hear about it!

    1. GoryDetails*

      I didn’t choose my career based on media representation – for one thing, I got into software development in the mid-1970s, when few people outside the computer industry had any awareness of it at all! – but I do enjoy attempts by films and TV to show what it’s like. (They usually get it hilariously wrong, though there have been some exceptions.) For me, the show that most accurately represented my workday experiences on a team of software developers was – surprise! – “The Dick Van Dyke Show”; the comedy-writers setup had a lot in common with the kind of hanging-out-around-our-cubicles that I started out in, where we’d switch between lobbing how-to-implement ideas around, meddling with each other’s problems (always more fun to work on somebody else’s code than one’s own), and bantering about games and movies and pets and such.

    2. ecnaseener*

      For a few years as a kid I wanted to be an astrophysicist like Sam Carter on Stargate! But then math got too hard so no, I didn’t end up actually doing anything in that field.

      1. MadisonB*

        I usually lurk but had to comment on this. This is me!! After I realized I couldn’t be Sam Carter because of math, I wanted to be a fighter pilot like Chaser and Ice on Pensacola Wings of Gold (math also required…), and then I wanted to be an archaeologist/anthropologist like Daniel and ended up in psychology. :)

    3. Dark Macadamia*

      I didn’t choose based on media but TV depictions of teachers tend to be soooooo bad!

      1. Double A*

        What, you aren’t always blathering through the end of the bell, totally unaware of the time and then you have to shout out the homework and test reminder as everyone is leaving? (It’s not the worst thing TV portrays about teachers but it happens in every single depiction of a classroom!!!)

        2. Dark Macadamia*

          To be fair I’ve definitely done this lol. But at least I’m not inappropriately involved in my students’ personal lives (or vice versa)!

      2. Flower necklace*

        What gets me is how students are able to wander around the school at will. No student has ever walked out of my class without me noticing!

    4. RagingADHD*

      I can’t imagine anyone actually getting through an initial class training for any career based on media representation, unless by coincidence they discovered an affinity for the work despite the inaccuracy.

    5. calonkat*

      :0

      But, but, GHOSTBUSTERS!!! The Keymaster is an accountant!

      And Leo Bloom in the Producers!

      Moonstruck, Stranger than Fiction, The Accountant (I haven’t seen that one, but it’s probably about an accountant?), and I’m sure more that I just don’t remember/haven’t seen.

      And Norm (Cheers) was an accountant, wasn’t he?

      As to your specific question, I’m a low level state government worker, and I don’t think there are many complimentary representations, mostly employees asking for specific forms in obstructionist ways. But the purpose of forms is to get the same information in the same manner so that nothing that is required is missed and everyone is treated the same. I’ve helped improve multiple forms, combined forms when possible (so that form X23 can be used for multiple purposes because they required the same information), and ensured they are available. So I guess the representation has made me work harder to be friendly and helpful.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        And Norm (Cheers) was an accountant, wasn’t he?

        I’m pretty sure you’re right, at least initially. His career evolved as the series progressed.

      2. I'm just here for the cats*

        I thought he was a tax lawyer because he represents them in court in the 2nd ghostbusters movie

        1. calonkat*

          I haven’t seen the second movie in a LONG time, so I looked it up. On the ghostbuster’s wiki it says “At some point between 1984 and 1989, Louis earned a law degree at night school and expanded his specialties as a tax attorney. On occasion, he worked on probate.[1] In late 1989, Louis reluctantly became the defense counsel for the Ghostbusters. He was upfront about getting his law degree at night school.” (and also confirmed he was an accountant in the first movie, nice to know I remembered that correctly.)

    6. Coverage Associate*

      I totally did. 2 things TV gets wrong about lawyers are we don’t all make lots of money, and we rarely appear as teams at meetings. Usually only the most senior attorney goes to court or meetings, after conferring privately with junior attorneys.

    7. Quaremie*

      My teenage love of the X-Files and admiration of Scully was probably part of my reason for going into a STEM field!

    8. Msnotmrs*

      I’m a librarian. The only accurate portrayal I think I’ve EVER seen was in the Queen’s Gambit where Beth asked the librarian for a specific chess book. The librarian isn’t sure they’d have it, but she says it’d be in the back of the library (correct, sports/games are in the 700s, at the end of Dewey) and recommends instead a biography of another chess player (excellent reader’s advisory).

      Every other portrayal is some schoolmarmy shushing nonsense.

      1. I'm just here for the cats*

        What about the librarian in Matilda that gives her the books. I think that was pretty accurate. (not a librarian but seriously considered it)

        1. Msnotmrs*

          I don’t think I’ve ever seen that movie all the way through, so I couldn’t speak to it specifically, but I trust your judgement :)

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        At the risk of reinforcing my geeky rep… what about Giles from Buffy? Evie from The Mummy? How about Batgirl from the original Adam West Batman series?
        So okay realistic they’re not. But neither are they stuffy. :)

        2. Msnotmrs*

          Evie from the Mummy is cool. But isn’t she more of an archivist than a librarian? I might be misremembering.

    10. Zenon*

      Huge sci-fi fan, picked to go into astrophysics. Sadly I don’t do it anymore, but it’s fair to say I was not chilling out in a spaceship halfway across the galaxy ever. I didn’t actually expect to be, though. In general, TV/film representations of scientists are laughably inaccurate.

    11. asteramella*

      Not me, but a friend definitely got into her field (zookeeping for a specific kind of large mammal) after becoming fascinated with them when watching nature documentaries as a kid.

  39. peachy*

    How are people’s workplaces responding to the delta variant? Are they pushing back plans to return to the office (if one was in place)?

    I work in higher ed, and as far as know, we’re still planning on a fully in-person semester at the end of August. Staff are on hybrid schedules, but we’re still being asked to come in multiple days a week. This feels… unwise to me. I’m mostly concerned about exposure to students in places like shared restrooms. I’m fully vaxxed, but I know vaxxed people can still spread delta to unvaxxed or immunocompromised folks annnnd… I really don’t want to do that.

    1. sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*

      In my city, numbers are still fantastically low so my employer is hoping for a back to the office return for most staff mid-September. Masks would be required in all common areas but we would have access to the microwave, coffee machine and fridge (they were all off limits last year).

      But looking at how delta is surging in other provinces, I’m wary of this date and of the push to return. I’ve flagged it to my director and my steward looking for more insight but no replies yet.

    2. mreasy*

      We had a return to office plan for Sept 13 and now it’s back up in the air. Our office requires vaccination to be in-person, as well.

    3. Ace in the Hole*

      I’m in a high-transmission area, but working in essential infrastructure that requires on-site work. We’ve gone back to requiring masks for everyone regardless of vaccination, but that’s pretty much all we can do short of suspending public services in our less-critical operations. We did that in 2020 for about six months, but it would take half our staff literally being hospitalized to convince local authorities to let us do it again.

    4. Disco Janet*

      I’m a high school teacher, and hahaha I wish. Our official plan, which is not a plan at all, was released yesterday and states that “masks are encouraged but not required.” AKA the people who should be wearing them won’t. And I really feel for the elementary teachers where none of their students have been vaccinated. And no hybrid – were full schedule face to face. This is what I had been expecting, but I am very disappointed they won’t be requiring masks at least until the under 12 crowd can be vaccinated. I’m in a pretty tough spot with my sons who are both too young for the vaccine and have a pre-existing condition.

      1. Flower necklace*

        I teach high school, too, but thankfully our district has a mask mandate. They’re being smart, even if our governor won’t issue a statewide mandate.

        I feel fairly safe living in an area with a relatively high level of vaccination, but our principal has scheduled two meals for the teacher workweek. My high school is pretty big. All of the teachers eating together, unmasked, with Delta spreading seems very unwise to me. I’ll probably just go and sit with my department with my mask on.

    5. calonkat*

      We’ve been back in the office for months now. They just mandated mask wearing all the time (our state is largely rural with all the associated problems), but there are no plans to allow us to work from home again. Apparently my job is 90% holding down my chair in my cubicle WHILE I’m working on the computer or on the phone. Our meetings are all on zoom (which makes for weird echoes when you can hear the person in the next cubicle with your headset and through the air) but gosh darn it, having our posteriors in those chairs is SO IMPORTANT! It’s literally worth dying for!

      1. peachy*

        You’re back in the office, but still meeting on Zoom???? That is maddeningly stupid. I’m having a rage attack on your behalf. I’m so sorry!

        1. JustaTech*

          I’m back in the office but still meeting over Team/WebEx, but that’s because we’re spread across a bunch of sites, so that was how we did it before, except now all the folks take their calls individually rather than from one conference room per site.

          1. Ooooof*

            And this is actually the right way to do it! It equalizes across sites and locations. First, it’s really hard to see and hear groups in a conference room. Plus, imbalances crop up when it’s a mix of groupings, especially if many people are in one or two rooms and there’s one or two people remote. The in-room folks start chatting and remote folks tend to get forgotten. If everyone can’t be in one room, then everyone on their own screen is the best solution for visibility and participation.

      2. Grace Less*

        SAME. And I’m supposed to provide my own white noise machine and noise canceling headphones if I find three separate conversations next to, behind, and in front of me “distracting”.

        “Open for opportunities” flag is on!

    6. CatCat*

      We were supposed to return to office in September with a hybrid work from home schedule. They have scrapped that now. New ETA for return is January.

    7. Paige*

      I’m in higher ed, and we start our fully in-person semester next week. Staff have been required to be back full time since July 1. Zero WFH allowed per our provost, regardless of whether we need to be in the buildings to get our work done. It did not help that we had a massive all-employees meeting yesterday to hear our newish uni prez give a speech, followed by what was definitely a mass-spreader event billed as a “social” with snacks and drinks and therefore a bunch of people walking around maskless. There is no way we don’t have tons of people coming down with covid within the next two weeks.

      At least I work in a building where our dean has made it clear they expect all of us to wear masks, and we only have 1 coworker in the building who hasn’t gotten the vaccine.

      And we’re not in a county with low covid spread. We’re in one of those bright red, all the cases are rising-counties. It’s like people decided that because they want it to be over, it is. It’s insane.

      1. calonkat*

        Oh yes, our county took off it’s mask mandate and apparently now there’s no pandemic! (Our governor did mandate that state employees have to wear masks in “shared spaces” (so, cubicle land?)) Woohoo! The bar and restaurant parking lots are full, I’m one of the few people wearing masks everywhere. It’s truly awful that we could have been really done with this had people gotten vaccinated, we’d gotten vaccines (and personnel/infrastructure to distribute) to other countries, and everyone had just kept doing easy, common sense things.

    8. The New Wanderer*

      Most of the company went back to the office last month with hybrid 2 days in, 3 days WFH schedules. We already had optional masking in most areas with some maintaining a mask-on policy due to close quarters, and strict occupancy limits on desks and conference room seating. The rule was put out this week that in-door masks are now mandatory and people are going to be allowed to WFH more frequently (or every day) with manager approval (and managers were told to approve as much as possible). I’ve noticed that all the previously scheduled conference-room meetings for the upcoming weeks are now virtual only.

    9. JustaTech*

      The only response my company has had to Delta is to ask everyone (again) to take a survey on if they’re vaccinated or not. At two of the sites they’ve had people actually fill out paperwork (but still not show our vaccine cards), but they can’t do that at the third (biggest) site because (they think?) it’s against state law.

      The only saving grace is that the people who must be on-site at that location in order for work to happen always wear a ton of PPE (for the job) so we managed to not have any on-site transmission. Oh yeah, and by the self-reporting survey, that site is ~50% vaccinated, while the other two (where they can ask) are more like 95%. Ugh. I think I’m going back to masking (in our mostly-empty office).

    10. AnonymousHOU*

      Also in higher ed here! We were supposed to come back full-time in mid-July, with no WFH allowed, no exceptions. That was backtracked earlier this week, so we will remain hybrid on a month-by-month basis through September. Everyone must now wear a mask indoors again and be tested regularly, regardless of vaccination status. Students will be back 100% for the fall semester. We are private, so are able to enforce a mask mandate despite our state’s very public stance against them.

      Does your building have a gender-neutral or other single use bathroom you could use? If so, that might help you personally feel better about the situation. Sending good vibes your way!

      1. peachy*

        Unfortunately, single-use bathrooms are hard to come by. There’s one in my building, but since it’s the only one, there’s always a wait for it. There might be other single-use ones elsewhere on campus. However, I’ve got a medical condition that means I go very often, so having to walk to the other side of campus every 30 mins to an hour isn’t ideal.

        Thanks for the good vibes!

    11. Rara Avis*

      My school (K-12, so at least 50% not even eligible for vaccination) is still planning to be fully in person. I’m not too worried. Mask compliance is high, and our area has a very high adult vaccination rate.

    12. Marie*

      My employer is going to require vaccination shortly and working onsite is optional for now. If it becomes required to go in folks with concerns will be allowed to continue to work from home. They’ve pushed. back our mandatory return date 3 or 4 times.

      Right now we have voluntary access to the office. I like it. Masks are required if you aren’t vaccinated and capacity is limited. Delta means the vaccines aren’t a silver bullet (not that they ever were), but at some locations masking in hallways and lines and elevators seems to be the accepted culture.

    13. Little Beans*

      I am also in higher ed and my campus is also still saying in person classes will resume in a few weeks, while we’re getting almost daily alerts about coronavirus exposures on campus. Fortunately, my department has decided to stay remote “until further notice”. A couple coworkers and I had been requesting this, then we found out others were also asking, so not sure if the group pressure helped influence the decision.

    14. ampersand*

      Higher ed here, too. We go back at the end of August as well, with hybrid schedules. The only person in my office who wants to go back, it turns out, is my assistant.

      She told me she is unvaccinated.
      She plans to remain that way.
      She’s very excited about seeing people in person again.

      There are no ICU beds left in my city; hospitals are full. The governor has banned mask mandates for state agencies, including the university I work at. We’re not allowed to ask anyone about their vaccination status.

      Apparently if you pretend there’s not a pandemic, it magically disappears!

      This is not going to end well.

      1. tra la la*

        I’ll bet we’re in the same state. My department (I work in the library) has been back since July 1, and we’re doing hybrid — 4 days in the office, 1 day working from home. It’s not terrible right now because the students aren’t really around. But I really worry about what’s going to happen when classes start on the 23rd, since I’ve been seeing reports suggesting that this state will be the next Florida. (Yay?) All faculty, including us, got an email yesterday telling us that we are also not allowed to treat unvaccinated students any differently from vaccinated students, and that we cannot separate unvaccinated students from vaccinated students.

        This past week I did an all-day Zoom interview for a job at a smaller private college in a state with a higher vaccination rate. They are expecting to go back to in-person teaching, but all employees and students are required to be vaccinated and there is also a mask mandate. Fingers crossed.

    15. gf*

      I work in Higher Ed too. My particular school at the University is requiring us to be in most days a week. I will be working in the quad, thanks very much and walking from the parking lot and NOT taking the bus. We get sick every year anyway when the students come back. This year will be so much worse. It’s so unwise and they really should aim for 50% staff capacity until the new year IMO. I don’t mind rotating my schedule with my colleagues if it keeps more people safe.

    16. allathian*

      For higher ed, it’s really tough because so many students are really suffering without in-person classes. Dropout rates and the need for counseling have spiked.

  40. Mold in Office - What to do*

    It’s been a crazy 3 weeks and I am trying to educate myself on mold exposure and the health ramifications. So about 3 weeks ago, I moved my desk location to an office (I work a hybrid schedule now) that was being used by another person who was in their cube about once a week. I had to move some boxes that were in the corner on the desk (in front of the wall and part of a window) to set up my computer stuff and I noticed water stains on the wood window sills, also paint bubbling around the window casing plus a musty odor.
    I emailed my manager and the EHS person, entered a workorder for maint. to check the water for the water damage. The EHS department replied to say they have arranged for mold testing. Then 2 days later EHS emailed with an update to day that they had someone (they were not specific about who this person is) take a look at the wall/window and will that EHS will be looking to find a mold remediation co. to go in first before our maint. stuff remove the damaged drywall.
    What I would like to know is if I have any health issues due to this exposure, do I have any recourse? Could it be workers’ comp? Any info is appreciated.
    Also to add that I work for a private co. that has about 6000 employees worldwide and they suck at taking care of their employees. However, they do a OK job pretending like they care!

    1. Disco Janet*

      How long were you exposed to the mold? It sounds like you noticed the water damage pretty quickly and I assume then moved out of the office, right? And that all happened weeks ago? Seems pretty unlikely that you’ll end up sick from that if you haven’t already. But maybe there’s more to it – I didn’t see your precious posts if there were any.

      1. Mold in Office - What to do*

        I was in that office for 9 days / about 6-7 hours total. I did wear a KN95 mask for 3 out of the 9 days. On the days I did not wear the mask, I did have a stuffy nose, itchy eyes and I did cough and sneeze (a few times) when I got home.
        I will be moving my computer equipment out of that office first thing next week and I have ordered a spray specially for mold to clean all hard surfaces and wash my clothes, etc.

    2. Ace in the Hole*

      Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer or doctor, I just work in EHS.

      If you had problems during those three weeks or shortly after, you might have some recourse since you could demonstrate it was directly linked to a workplace exposure. For example if you paid out of pocket for doctors visits or treatments for breathing issues, allergies, etc. during the last few weeks that you can now connect to the mold.

      It sounds like you’re worried about a health problem you’re not currently experiencing showing up in the future. The bad news is that you’d have a very difficult (maybe impossible) time proving that it came from this exposure. It was short – only 3 weeks – and not particularly extreme, you had no symptoms during the exposure, and the link between mold and chronic health problems doesn’t have scientific support right now. The main danger of “toxic” mold (based on current medical consensus) is triggering asthma, respiratory irritation, or allergies… all things that show up during exposure, not weeks or months later. The exception would be if you’re immunocompromised and at risk of mold infections. In that case I’d recommend documenting the exposure and talking to a doctor promptly about potential risks.

      The good news is that since it was a short term mild exposure and you didn’t have notable symptoms during the exposure, it’s very unlikely you will develop problems later on! I’m not trying to dismiss people who do have health issues they believe to be mold-related… just that it’s a rare enough phenomenon we haven’t been able to document it clearly in spite of numerous studies.

      1. Mold in Office - What to do*

        Thank you, this information is helpful.
        Since I have had allergies and health issues in the past, I did see my doctor and asked about blood or urine tests to figure out my level of mold exposure. I also had a stuffy nose, coughing / sneezing in the afternoon/evenings after getting home. The doctor is doing research to find best test for me and did say that I have to get out of the moldy office ASAP! I WFH the days after seeing my doc and I plan to move my computer stuff out of that office next week once I have a place to move to. I am glad that I don’t have any books or paper files to worry about.
        I do hope that I do not experience long term affects due to the exposure. It is scary reading information on the web regarding mold exposure.

        1. Ace in the Hole*

          Definitely follow medical advice from your doctor, but try not to be too worried about long-term effects… they really are very rare!

          What you’re describing sounds like a pretty normal mild allergy or irritation and is almost certain to clear up once you stop breathing the irritant – basically like being exposed to pollen you’re allergic to or irritating dust. Stopping exposure is important mostly for comfort (no one wants to sneeze/cough all day!) and also to eliminate the possibility of developing a more severe reaction through continued exposure. A lot of people also get nervous from the emphasis on immediate professional remediation… that’s not because the mold is horribly dangerous, it’s because mold spreads quickly and is difficult to get rid of. Like a bedbug infestation – extremely unpleasant to live with and hard to fix, but very unlikely to cause lasting health problems once it’s gone.

          Unfortunately mold is one of the popular health boogymen right now – there’s a lot of information about it online that is just not accurate. So take the horror stories and scary articles with a grain of salt, even when they refer to studies… I can’t tell you how many things I’ve read that turn out to be totally misinterpreting their own sources!

          I don’t know if links are allowed, but the CDC has a pretty good FAQ about mold with links to other good sources as well. It’s one of the top results if you google “CDC mold FAQ.”

          1. Mold in Office - What to do*

            Thank you so much for this information! I will look it up on the CDC site.

    3. RagingADHD*

      Reactions to mold are nearly always mild and temporary, like sinus allergies.

      More serious reactions come from prolonged, intense exposure. I have had pretty severe dermatitis from unknowingly living in a rental house with terrible mold issues. And my kids experienced frequent upper respiratory illnesses and sinus infections from spending a year on the “sick” hallway at their school, which is constantly battling with mold remediation.

      However, both those situations cleared up immediately as soon as we were out of the environment – that’s how we realized what the problem was, as a matter of fact.

      As long as the mold remediation is done properly & thoroughly, and you haven’t had any allergic-type reactions, it’s highly unlikely you have anything to worry about.

        1. RagingADHD*

          I’m glad.

          Mold is just a normal part of the ecosystem. It is in the air all around us, all the time, everywhere. Our bodies are adapted to interact with it. It’s not some horrible deadly poison, despite the panic on the internet.

          Problems occur when there’s an overgrowth – just like when the dust mites in a house get out of hand, or having your gut microbiome messed up after an illness. Once things get rebalanced to normal, the health effects go away.

    4. JustaTech*

      We’ve only had one bad mold exposure at my work where my coworker with serious allergies cleaned out a walk-in refrigerator that was *full* of moldy cardboard boxes. She got sick enough (pneumonia) that she ended up on short-term disability. She also wasn’t wearing any kind of mask (this was years ago and we didn’t have any on site), and was prone to those kind of infections. After she came back she didn’t have any lingering effects, aside from being strictly not allowed to clean anything moldy!

      I personally have cleaned a regular refrigerator of moldy boxes (again without a mask, but with gloves) and while I took precautions to keep the mold spores from getting airborne, that was it, and I did not get sick.
      Most people with normal immune systems won’t be much bothered by short-term exposure to mold.

      (And at least your EHS/ facilities people are doing something! It’s when the mold lingers for months that you get serious issues.)
      Good luck!

      1. Mold in Office - What to do*

        Thank you.
        My guess is it will take at least a couple of months for them to get it all done.

  41. Stuck in CS Hell*

    My 3 year anniversary with this company (that I’ve been trying to leave since Dec.) is coming up soon and I got sent a survey about my anniversary, basically asking how I felt the last year’s changes were doing. Let’s just say I didn’t hold back any punches and I’ll be amazed if they don’t try to push me out even harder now (still on a 3 month long PIP that’s got a few more weeks to go). But at least I can say I put it in writing/was completely honest about how I feel about the company’s direction and everything that’s been upsetting me and stressing me out.

    A lot of things about the job have pissed me off and I may not get an exit interview chance, so I’m going to be 100% honest every time they ask for my feedback somewhere. We’ve already lost at least 5 long term agents who were damn good at their job last month because the company didn’t want to listen (many were “fired” or forced to quit but their stories are very similar to each other and my own issues that I can say it’s very likely they were pushed out as they didn’t “fit” the company’s culture), and I expect I’ll follow soon anyways, either quitting after getting a new job or being fired/pushed out as well. Here’s to hoping I can find a much better job and company before the end of the year!

  42. Why is my office a dumpster fire*

    Hi all, I’m the LW who wrote in about their company creating ridiculous WFH standards last year. After I sent in my December update, things actually got a lot better. We had a 2-week holiday closure that I think was the break everyone needed. I stopped considering leaving the org because all was going well, and 2021 has been good… until this week.

    Our company is a public health focused nonprofit in a blue state, and we have been very focused on COVID safety throughout the pandemic. We have all been WFH since last March, though select people have been able to work part time from the office if there is a demonstrated business need. When case counts were low in June, we made plans for all staff to return to the office in August.

    Last week, we had an all staff meeting about how bad the Delta Variant is. It was announced that vaccination would be mandatory for employees. Employees would be required to be masked at all times in the office. Case counts are going up. And then we were told we would still be returning to the office as planned.

    It has been a DISASTER. Unvaccinated people are in the office. Mask adherence is abysmal (especially among unvaccinated people). My first day back, we got an email that someone had come into the office with COVID, but that none of the employees exposed were being required to quarantine. One of those exposed was an unvaccinated person who refused to put a mask on properly in an enclosed office with my team.

    I have raised safety concerns with our leadership and they are being ignored. When I asked what business need changed that required us to all work from the office all of a sudden (to be clear, everyone on my team can work remotely and has been very productive at home), I get some vague answer about how important our in-office company culture is. I started job hunting right away after I heard that.

    My question is… is there anything else I can do to push back? A friend recommended contacting the state public health department or OSHA, I have also thought about leaving an anonymous review on Glassdoor but don’t feel comfortable with that when I don’t have a new job lined up. I’d love any thoughts/advice on what to do next. I have been losing a lot of sleep over this.

    1. Colette*

      Do you have the power to ask someone who is not wearing a mask (or not wearing it properly) to leave the room? I think you may be able to push back on things like having an unmasked person in the room with your team. You can’t make them be decent people, but you can remove yourself from their vicinity and protect your team from them.

      But yeah, get out.

      1. Why is my office a dumpster fire*

        Unfortunately… not really. I suppose technically I COULD, but it would make it much harder for our team to get things done since we need these other people (who we’ve had strong relationships with remotely) to accomplish things.

        1. Colette*

          I’m not sure efficiency should be your goal over keeping your team safe. I’m sure it would be annoying to push back! But I don’t think saying “Jim, you need to put your mask on properly before you join us, or else you can call in from your desk” should burn a lot of bridges.

    2. Disco Janet*

      My school was breaking state and health department orders with their handling of Covid cases last school year. I called basically every organization you could think of (state Covid like, health department, etc.) and nothing happened. I think this kind of thing is unfortunately so common that they’re just swamped and ignoring a lot. So no advice, but you have my sympathy!

      1. Why is my office a dumpster fire*

        Yeah it’s ridiculous because our president is friends with the state public health officer and our mission during COVID has been workplace safety. It still is (publicly) and what’s going on with the office doesn’t align with it at all.

    3. MailGal96*

      No advice, just my sympathies. My manager has been horrible when it comes to Covid-19. Earlier this year, 2 of my coworkers caught it. She never reported it to Security or enforced quarantine per protocol. The 2nd case she didn’t even bother to tell us they were positive because they asked her not to! Instead, she required me to get tested before returning to work (which tipped me off).

      Yet she made a big deal about the fact I might be exposed to the virus when members of my household visited my dying grandfather at the nursing home (I did not enter the building). Thank god, the gentleman in Security handling our Covid-19 response was so wonderful and got me thru. Then she travels out west for a gender reveal party and ends up coming home with Covid. There are multiple reasons, but she is the worst manager I’ve had by far.

      So I completely understand how frustrating it is.

    4. JustaTech*

      So they made all these rules and then just completely refuse to enforce any of them?
      Oy.

      Can you go back to leadership with something really specific, like, “I understand that our in-office culture is very important to the company. In light of that, what will be the enforcement of masking requirements so that we can stay in office safely?”

    5. Ace in the Hole*

      Check with your state OSHA and health department.

      I’m in California, where some of the things you mentioned (particularly allowing an exposed unvaccinated person to come to work!) would be an OSHA violation. You can make anonymous complaints with OSHA, and you also have legal protections for reporting safety concerns. OSHA can also advise you of your rights as an employee if you call them for assistance. Some of these things, like not enforcing mask requirements, might also violate state or local health ordinances. See if your state/county/city has a hotline for anonymous reporting of health code violations.

      Aside from that… can you share your concerns with your manager and work out a way to work from home? What about getting a doctor’s note saying you need to work from home for health reasons?

      Or (if there is regulatory support for masking/exclusion requirements) you could leave the room whenever someone breaks covid safety policies and immediately report the safety hazard to the appropriate person. Then refuse to return to the unsafe area until they’ve corrected the safety hazard – again, this is a legally protected action.

      1. lasslisa*

        I was just recently reading back through my employee handbook and it does say that we are not required to work in conditions that violate health and safety requirements, and that if an area appears to have a violation of our health and safety policies we are permitted to stop work and leave the area until the apparent violation is addressed (either by training/explaining why it’s not a violation, or by remediating it).

        Depending on how much of a fuss someone is willing to make, and how many other people they think they could get behind them, this would be an option. In order of escalation this would look like:
        “Can you please put your mask on for this meeting? It’s required by our health and safety department.”
        “If not, I’m going to have to ask you to leave. You can zoom in to the meeting from your desk. (Or, “I’ll reschedule the meeting.”)
        “Well, if you won’t wear a mask, I’m going to have to leave the area since it violates our safety policies for me to be here. The meeting is cancelled, I can’t be encouraging other employees to be in the same area as an unmasked colleague.”

  43. sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*

    Let’s talk about taking extended medical leaves.

    If you’ve told your boss that your doctor has granted you a medical leave until a certain date, and your out of office says you’ll be back on that same date, it is reasonable to expect that you will be in the office on that date? And that if circumstances are such that you need to extend that leave, you’ll get that extension and new date before the original expected return date?

    I had a coworker who started a medical leave and I was filling in for her. Her original return date was (for example) Jan 17 but on Jan 17, we heard that she as at the doctor’s and we were all on hold waiting for news. We had new date of February 20th and then again, on the 20th, we were all waiting for news. This repeated a few times into April when finally we just got steady two-month extensions and we stopped putting dates on her return and her out of office.

    Since her anticipated return dates impacted work – granting extensions to the people backfilling, getting documentation ready, getting approvals, making sure IT and HR and payroll were all aware – this letting us know on the day of her anticipated return was not convenient in the least.

    But, in trying to be fair and have empathy for the person who was ill, maybe she was not able to see her doctor before that date (which baffled me – why not make an appointment?). Or maybe the insurance company was tardy on their end.

    Is this normal?

    (and after 18 months of two to three-month extensions, she’s now on leave for another six months, making her leave hit the two-year mark by end of year.)

    1. cactus lady*

      You’re can’t return from medical leave legally until your doctor releases you to do so. I believe there is a limit to how long her job has to be held for you if you’re out on medical leave, but I’m not sure what that is.

      1. Sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*

        We have a collective agreement. Her employment with us is forever…but not in that particular role. Her role is coveted! At one point, the employer, armed with info from her, her boss and the insurance, can make the decision to post her job, while she continues her leave indefinitely. That happens usually, but not always, around the two-year mark.

    2. Bagpuss*

      Is it possible that that Doctor won’t / can’t issue a new sign off for medical leave until the old one expires?

      Also – is it possible that she has been on contact with a manager or other senior person t tell them that she is still unwell and may be getting an extension, but that that information isn’t being shared?

      For the things which need to be done be her others, and for her OOO, is it worth suggesting that everything is planned o the basis that she will be out indefinitely, and then things are moved back to her as and when she returns?

      1. Sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*

        It’s possible her doctor was the bottleneck.

        And my director kept sharing with me the dates because it impacted my extension as her backfill.

        The OOO now has no date at all, just “Contact my director.”

    3. Colette*

      That sounds annoying.

      But a lot of people underestimate how long it will take them to recover from illness. It’s possible, for example, that on Friday she thinks she’ll be back on Monday and on Monday morning she has a panic attack at the thought of going in. Or that she has the energy to do small things at home but she’s in a lot of pain by the time she gets to the bus stop.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      It kind of sounds like her doctor is saying “let’s re-evaluate you on January 17” and she’s assuming (or someone is assuming) that’s the date of her return? I’ve never been in a situation where medical leave keeps getting extended, and I don’t know if it’s normal, but it certainly sounds irritating for all involved.

      1. Sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*

        Medical leaves are a bit tricky from what little I understand.

        The first part is short term disability and has shorter extensions. Once you hit a number of weeks on that, you are pushed to apply for the employment insurance (EI) for sick leaves (Canada). If you are still unable to return to work after that, you then move into long term disability with the insurance company. The forms to apply for the LTD are often submitted while you are in the EI stage because it can take weeks for the doctor’s notes and the insurance to all be completed, submitted and then decisions made. I’ve heard “Horror” stories where people on leave spend a lot of time collecting documents for the insurance company, instead of focusing on getting better.

        When you hit the LTD phase, you have to give a 3-week heads up that you’re coming back. So for every extension I got for the backfill, I had to do the math and then remind my director, hey, am I filling in another form to extend again?

        It’s very possible that she felt ready to return and then just could not do so on the day of during the short-term phase of this leave. With the three-week heads up, that should be less likely (I hope).

        1. EmKay*

          Hello, hi. I’ve been in this position in Canada and I can tell you how it happened for me.

          Doctor: I’m writing you a note for 8 weeks of leave. We’ll reevaluate then.
          8 weeks pass
          Doctor: I’m writing you a note for 8 more weeks of leave. We’ll reevaluate then.
          8 weeks pass
          Doctor: I’m writing you a note for 8 more weeks of leave. We’ll reevaluate then.
          etc.

          Considering I was out for a burnout, it would have helped immensely if he’d just given me 6 months from the start. But he couldn’t, that’s not how it works.

          1. sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*

            That sounds awful for the patient (you!). And it’s not much fun for those of trying to plan around it at the office. Why do they do this?!

            This most recent extension, she was able get a note for six months after a series of stupidly short extensions in April/May. I figured that around that time there must have been a LOT going on behind the scenes between her, her doctor and her insurance. Thing was, for us at the office, it postponed us hiring a (a badly needed because I was now working for two) new person by six weeks because there was no value in hiring & training someone new for only 2 weeks if she was returning and the return date was a constantly shifting thing during those six weeks.

        2. cubone*

          Also Canada and also the exact same thing for me.

          I am very sympathetic to your plight as the coworker, but I have to be honest that ….. it just kind of doesn’t matter or factor in how it affects the workplace or colleagues. Very little work is life or death (and the kind of work that is life or death makes it even more important to prioritize these medically necessary leaves).

          When I took my leave and sent in the return date of Apriltober 42nd (for example), my doctor had my appointment to reasses on Apriltober 41st. She advised extending again, and same thing – re-assessment was one day before I was set to return (I did the second time, on a PT basis).

          I think there is a few things at play: the legal definitions of short term vs long term leave for insurance/EI purposes, desire to not “rush” making a decision, etc. but I will also add that in my case, my doctor also brought up again and again that how this impacted my workplace was not my concern, responsibility, or priority in any way. Re-assessing at the last minute was a way to ensure my leave for burnout was actually valuable and I wasn’t spending the whole time anticipating my return, and that I understood very clearly that “what burden this puts on my coworkers” was not a part of the discussion about my health needs. I understand as the coworker that can be hard to swallow, but if someone taking a leave causes chaos (or burnout for other people), that’s really a failure of management.

          I hope this doesn’t come across critical of you for asking this question, because I can totally understand why you would want to discuss it. And I do agree that this pattern for this long is naturally going to invite some curiosity and confusion – you have every right to have questions about the role and workload! But those questions are for your manager, and respectfully, they have absolutely nothing to do with your coworker taking the leave.

    5. WellRed*

      I can’t imagine not checking in with my office ahead of a return to either confirm or extend the leave. That she keeps repeating the pattern makes me skeptical.

    6. ecnaseener*

      That does sound annoying, but I’m guessing she’s not really allowed to build in a cushion of time on a medical leave. If Jan 17 is the day her doctor will re-evaluate her, she has to plan on returning to work as soon as he clears her (assuming she doesn’t have any vacation time available)

    7. Decima Dewey*

      I can relate. My boss, Pangloss, told me he’d be out on medical leave for two weeks. It wasn’t until he told the rest of the staff he’d be out starting the following Wednesday that he said that his doctor told him that two weeks was the absolute best case scenario and that the more likely one was four weeks. Believe me, I was thrilled to hear that /sarcasm off. Pangloss is insanely optimistic, so it was my fault for believing him. Now I know I’d better Google any medical information he shares with me so I won’t be blindsided again.

      That said, things do happen. Pangloss called me at home around the two week mark, said he expected to be back in the branch soon. Then his medical leave got extended a couple of times. It turned out that he had post-surgical internal bleeding. What he said would be two weeks turned into a month and a half.

      He seems okay now.

      2. sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*

        I’ve had that happen too.

        “I’ll be off for one week after my surgery.” It ended up being four. And that time, someone else was also on vacation so I was now covering three jobs.

      3. JustaTech*

        I had a boss who tried this: he needed shoulder surgery and the doctor told him the absolute earliest he would be back was 2 weeks. Everyone nodded and said “OK, we’ll see you in three weeks.” “No, no, I’ll be fine in a week and a half, tops!”

        He was not fine in a week and a half, or even in two weeks. He came in for one day, was in terrible pain and went home for at least another week.
        (It’s not that we thought he was lying about when he’d be back, it’s just that a bunch of people had similar experience and knew that it would be a hard recovery.)

    8. Koala dreams*

      That sounds normal, but not ideal. Often patients don’t have a lot of choice in appointments, and it might be difficult to get an early follow-up. In fact, many places tell you to call back if you feel worse or don’t feel better, instead of offering everyone a follow-up appointment. Then it’s difficult to know how long it will talk to recover, since it’s individual. Most people are optimistic and ask for time off work based on the idea that everything goes well, no complications, etc. If she was scheduled to be out a couple of months and ended up being unable to work for a few years, I guess she was busy taking care of her health and coping with an unexpectedly difficult situation, and telling her employer was lower on the priority list.

    9. ronda*

      For my leave, work didnt contact me but the ST disability insurance did to find out what dates the dr had said were expected/ when I had a followup appointments and followed up again at those dates.

      The Dr released at the time of my last appointment, & I sent the info to the insurance company and HR. So the Dr was really not saying it was OK until it was and at that point …. that was the day I could go back.

      He gave me an expected date, but the release was totally the day of him seeing me and signing off on it.

    10. BelleMorte*

      Sometimes people don’t have a choice, they may get worse, or not get clearance. They are also locked into when they can see their doctor. I had a 1 month sick leave that ended up being 6 months plus a gradual return after some post-surgical complications (twice). I had zero way of knowing when/if I would be able to go back. Sick people are being sick, they aren’t doing this to inconvenience you.

  44. Princess Blueberry*

    So, my boss is determined to push ahead with bringing people back to the office in person in a few weeks, despite the delta variant and general resurgence of the virus. He refuses to impose a vaccine mandate or a mask mandate and says he will “strongly discourage” people from wearing masks at the office. But you know what will be mandated? Participation in company social events involving eating and drinking, including at restaurants. I have young children at home who can’t get vaccinated yet and don’t really want to be around anyone unmasked, especially in close indoor quarters like restaurants. I am a single parent and really need this job (have been looking for another one, but no luck yet). I have talked to a few coworkers who say they aren’t thrilled about the situation but aren’t interested in pushing back. My plan for the moment is to show up to work on the required day, wearing a mask, and continuing to wear it (without eating and drinking) during the mandatory social events, and I guess he can fire me if he wants. Do I have any other recourse here, especially if other coworkers aren’t interested in joining me in expressing concerns? (This is a smallish company with no formal HR, the boss is the owner, and I already checked with another manager who just shrugged.)

    1. JustaTech*

      A very sad expression and saying “I’m doing this for my kids”?
      It’s entirely possible that when other people see you wearing a mask they will too. (I have a coworker who is masking in our 100% vaccinated office because he’s worried about his kids, and whenever anyone needs to talk to him they pop a mask on too, to be kind/nice/polite.)

      Or you could ask (over the phone) you pediatrician for a note about why you need to wear a mask?

      As for restaurants, if it’s after hours can you just plead “no childcare in the evenings” and not go? Usually I wouldn’t suggest it, as it could hold you back, but it’s better than getting sick and might deflect your boss’ wrath.

      (Also, your boss is a schmuck and I hope you’re well rid of him soon!)

      1. Coder von Frankenstein*

        Yeah, I would definitely plead doctor’s orders on the mask. Even if your doctor hasn’t actually given such orders, Doctor Internet says wear a mask. :)

  45. Board Mandates*

    Hello Ask a Manager people. I would like to get your take on something. I work for a state trade association and, as such, we have a Board of Directors. Our President & CEO who started 10 months ago recently created a “Board Members Expectations” document. One of the expectations/requirements is that you donate $500/year to our political action committee and $250/year to our national association’s political action committee. I am vehemently opposed to this. I can understand a “you are expected to donate to the PAC” but to put a dollar amount on it is ludicrous. Anyways, would love to get other people’s thoughts and opinions if you have experience with PAC donation mandates for board members.

    1. Rey*

      I haven’t seen this before, and I’m surprised because the board I work with are trying to improve their diversity and inclusion at the moment. I know that board members are traditionally asked to donate, but putting a dollar amount on board member donations seems like it could be a barrier to some folks who still add value to the board.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It’s really common to have specific contribution requirements for board members, often much higher than this! (In some orgs it’s in the six figures or even higher. Obviously people are informed before they join. But in those cases it’s a built-in part of the point of the board.) But it’s a bad idea if you’re trying to diversify your board.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I’m confused. Is this document “Expectations for what the Board should do” or is it “Expectations that the Board has for what our employees should do”?

    4. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      It doesn’t sound uncommon. Also if you’re an employee, does it affect you?

      1. Board Mandates*

        I just know that if I was on our Board of Directors that I would have to resign my position because I couldn’t afford an additional $750/year on my current salary. Our membership is diverse, we have large companies and small, independent facilities. I want to ensure that the voice of our independent operators remain on our board because they do have unique experiences and challenges that our large companies can’t relate to. I see the amount being a significant barrier.

    5. Board Mandates*

      Hi everyone! Thanks for the responses. We already have a difficult time finding board members so I feel like this requirement will push more people off our board. The trade association that I work for represents a sector of the healthcare profession that has struggled a lot in recent years, lots of our members are closing and are not doing well financially on top of dealing with COVID-19, so I have concerns about requiring, at a minimum, $750 annually for political giving. I am not opposed to a mandate generally, but I don’t think that we should put a dollar figure on it. We have a diverse board of directors, one of our members is the owner of the largest company for our sector in the state and others are operating small companies with razor thin margins.

      I am on our government relations team and handle our PAC reporting so it does affect me, and maybe I am just upset because no one told me about this and it is just adding fuel to the fire of my overall unhappiness at not being included in conversations at work. But that is a conversation for another day.

      1. BelleMorte*

        Isn’t this a type of decision that the board should be voting on? I don’t really like these. It’s too “pay to play” as well you are already getting these people’s time and expertise without paying them for their work.

      2. cubone*

        Not sure if you’re familiar with the website Nonprofit AF but there is tons of good stuff there about the problems with ideas like “100% board giving” and how it perpetuates inequity, etc. There is a blog post that is just “why we need to drop 100% board giving” (which is what this is, even if the stated amount was $5) and outlines a plethora of reasons you could draw from to make your case.

        The Facebook group Non Profit Happy Hour is also a great place for these kinds of questions.

    6. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Professional fundraiser here. Yes, typically board membership carries an expectation of giving philanthropically to the organization, as the board is (theoretically) made up of the org’s closest and most ardent supporters. There are two trains of thought about setting a specific giving requirement; on the one hand, it (theoretically) increases board giving – and it’s important to remember that in most organizations, the board is often meant as an engine for philanthropy, whether through their own gifts or those they encourage from others. On the other hand, an explicit giving amount might be seen as the target rather than the minimum and can actually decrease the amount that some board members will give, and setting a minimum gift can be a barrier to the types of people that can serve on a board. Some organizations counteract this with a “give or get” model, where there is a giving requirement for board members to fulfill through some combination of personal giving and bringing in gifts from their personal networks. I’ve also served on the board of a volunteer organization where exceptions were made to the giving requirement for those without means, but were handled privately with the board treasurer.

      All that to say, this is not unusual and, without knowing the details of your organization, it’s probably not outrageous.

    7. Koala dreams*

      The question for me is the purpose of the association and how the board fits in with that. If the purpose is campaigns it’s a different situation compared to the purpose being a support group for people in your trade. The question is also what kind of people you want on your board. Some boards encourage employee representatives, some want members from the community they serve, some want active professionals. But that’s perhaps less common in a trade organization.

      1. Board Mandates*

        Hi there. We are a state trade association for long-term care providers in the state. So we provide different supports to the industry as a whole, education, regulatory assistance, quality advancement, and workforce programs. We are also a lobbying entity, I am one of the lobbyists on staff (there are two others on staff and two contract lobbyists). So we do political giving through our political action committee. To put the scope of our political giving into perspective, our annual goal is to raise $20,000. $20,000 has been our goal for three years and we have met it every year, usually by the skin of our teeth. This year we have raised about $35,000, so significantly surpassed our fundraising goal.

        The majority of our board members are either administrators, executive directors, and some directors of nursing of a facility. We have some members that own small, family-run facilities. We also have company representatives, so people who aren’t working in a facility every day. So we are a very diverse group, which, I think, is our biggest strength as an organization.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Agreeing with others who said “normal”.

      It’s a bit of a peeve of mine because it comes close to “buying’ a seat on the board. You have to pay to play. This carves away groups of people who cannot shell out like this.
      Another thing that happens to is that rotten apple board members who make large donations could be more likely to keep their jobs when they probably shouldn’t.

      I have served on two boards. If I had to pay, I would have walked.

    9. Linz*

      It is both common and wrong.

      A phrase that came up when when debating this in the past that I really like is that board members should make a donation “of personal significance” to them. As in, this org should be your first priority in giving, but we won’t attach a specific dollar amount because not everyone has the same amount of money.

    10. More Nuanced Than That*

      I’ve actually never encountered a non-profit’s board that didn’t require an annual contribution of a specific amount – or equivalent fundraising in lieu of. Usually both, as far as I recall.

    11. Glomarization, Esq.*

      An expectation for a board member to contribute to the organization is not unusual. The expectation to donate to a PAC is unusual, and also won’t be tax-deductible as a donation to the trade association might be.

      As has been mentioned, the phrase “personally significant” is one I’ve seen used in a lot of orgs for the amount that board member is asked/expected to donate. Financial or in-kind contributions, and other fundraising duties, are very much expected of board members (and “how much am I expected to donate/raise every year” is an important question to ask when one is asked to join a board). I’m sure there are plenty of high-profile organizations that explicitly lay it out in actual numbers, though.

  46. Mobius 1*

    It’s now been about 14 months since I was laid off from my previous full-time permanent job. Since about January I’ve been able to find occasional fairly short-term contract work, but nothing else has panned out. I’m starting to really burn out on the job hunt, but we’re trying to save for a wedding and/or house so unfortunately it’s not really an option for me to step back. Honestly I’m at the point of considering applying for jobs paying substantially less than my current minimum (which, FWIW, I don’t think is set unreasonably high or anything; I can’t think of any jobs I decided not to apply to where being less than my minimum was the only reason), and/or going for graveyard shift/heavy physical labor/hospitality/restaurant/retail jobs (all of which are honestly my nightmare: I am autistic, I have noodle arms, and I do not want to even think about what being on opposite schedules could do to our relationship). My resume is a bit swiss-cheesy already, so that adds even more urgency. I do have contacts at several staffing agencies, but they don’t ever seem to send me contracts longer than a month or two (I have told them I’m looking for temp to perm or direct hire but this has had little apparent effect). To add to all of this, I have found that I quite enjoy being a homemaker, but that’s unfortunately unsustainable on my fiancee’s salary. I’m more or less rapidly approaching my wits’ end, I guess.

    By way of a question: I recall from previous open threads and other comments sections on this site that there are a fair few other neurodivergents around here. Would you be willing to share what you did when you were in a situation like this? Also any resources would be great.

    1. Anon for this 2.0*

      Long before I was diagnosed with ADHD, I was in a similar situation and so first I just want to send internet hugs. My approach to the situation at the time was to go for advanced education, which I’ve since learned is a common response for people struggling to find a solid career path but not necessary the best one (especially financially in the US).

      Now that I look back on it all, things that have really helped me have been:
      >Support groups and communities with people going through similar transitions and life stages. Neurodiverse Twitter is great for this. ADHD reWired currently has some support groups if you’re ADHD, but I haven’t tried this one.
      >Figuring out (and practicing) my career narrative that explains my swiss-cheese career in a way that people connect with. I’ve learned that things that I thought were self-evident to my brain were not evident to others, so creating a narrative arch that explained me and my skills to others has created a world of difference. The Career Stories Method book is a recently released book that many neurodiverse friends have raved about.
      >When I was temping, I learned that I had to be a thorn in the recruiter’s side in order to get gigs. I also made peace with the fact that I was a temp and kept at it for over two years. I learned so many things and created a huge network from temping. I also likened my temp experience to consulting in my professional narrative as a way to indicate that I was able to quickly assess the situation on the ground and apply my skills and expertise for a positive outcome before moving on to the next challenge.
      >A twee as it may be to say, know that you’re not alone and that you’re not broken.

      1. RagingADHD*

        The narrative thing is excellent advice. If you go for the “any job, right now” tack like I did, a good narrative hook is to tie it to initiative and problem-solving.

        The word “gumption” gets used jokingly around here as code for bad career advice that makes you look inappropriate, tone deaf, or obnoxious to recruiters. But in the positive sense of being proactive and willing to help, most hiring managers see that type of gumption as a very desirable trait.

      2. LC*

        Neurodiverse Twitter is great for this.

        Yes, this, absolutely! ND Twitter and ADHD Twitter are fantastic. I’ll try to find a link to a thread that had a bunch of suggestions for people to follow, but if I were to recommend just one person to start with, it’d probably be ADHD_Alien. She’s amazing, and she interacts with people a ton, so you’ll see more and more people worth following.

        If you do Reddit, I’d suggest ADHDwomen and ADHDers (not so much the main ADHD subreddit, I have …. fundamental disagreements with some of the stuff they mod pretty hard on).

        A twee as it may be to say, know that you’re not alone and that you’re not broken.

        This this this. I don’t have a ton of in-person support (ADHD or otherwise) minus my husband, so connecting with other ADHD people online has profoundly helped me see (and start to believe) that I’m not defective and that there are lots of other people whose brains work differently like mine.

    2. RagingADHD*

      It’s been a while, so the economy was different, but when I (or later, we) were in serious need of money, fast, I did exactly what you are talking about: took any honest work that would put a check in my hand the soonest.

      I’ve done everything from front-desk reception to retail to clearing construction debris to the dump, to being the dribble-wiper at an ice cream factory.

      IME, the bigger staffing agencies like Kelly and Manpower often have different divisions for tech, admin and “light industrial”. If you are already on the books at such a place, try calling them up and asking about light industrial. This is going to be stuff like unskilled or minimally skilled factory work. It usually isn’t very strenuous, just tedious.

      They will be surprised and ask why. The answer is that you need to be working as soon as possible, and you will do whatever they need done. I have found that doing a week or so of good, reliable work in that division pushed my application to the top of the pile for better assignments in my desired division.

      In the current economy, I would pair that with applying at any local shop that had a sign in the window. My flavor of ND being different than yours, the “just go ask” thing is less of a barrier. However, if you can white-knuckle through that part and it’s the thought of working with the public that’s awful, most types of shops need backroom support.

      For example, one of my longer-term retail jobs was as a florist’s “grunt.” I spent most of my time processing stock, arranging the cooler, and making deliveries. I occasionally helped at the register, but only to fill in. It wasn’t a bad gig at all.

      Again, IME, if you are overqualified for these jobs no reasonable boss will be surprised or upset when you leave for a better offer. The nature of this type of work is that high turnover is expected.

      I wish you well, and hope you get things moving in the right direction very soon!

      1. Mobius 1*

        I actually just got turned down from a job at a university copy center because they were afraid I’d get bored due to my overqualifications. This despite their not having addressed it at ALL in the interview. ‘-_-

    3. The Original Stellaaaaa*

      Target and Panera are doing big hiring drives right now. Unglamorous work for sure but those are nice employee discounts to have. Or you could try Barnes and Noble near you. Bookstores are fun workplaces and it’s really cool if you make manager.

  47. OlympiasEpiriot*

    Any comments about CNN’s firing of 3 people for lying about their vaccination status?

      1. OlympiasEpiriot*

        Yeah. I’m pretty sure it was the lying rather than not vaccinating that did it.

    3. The Dude Abides*

      I got a chuckle out of seeing the twitter lawyers claim that the employees had grounds for a wrongful termination lawsuit.

      1. OlympiasEpiriot*

        Yeah… I don’t think being fired for lying leaves any openings for “wrongful termination”.

    4. Person from the Resume*

      Way to go CNN? Lying to the company about having complied with a health and safety requirement that you didn’t is definitely grounds for firing.

      Given that the unvaccinated adults have all had lots of opportunity to be vaccinated on their own, I support government and companies forcing people to do what’s good for them and society as a whole. Get vaccinated or provide proof of a medical exemption from a clinician.*

      * I am dismayed about much lying and fake vaccination cards and fake medical exemptions I expect from people. Unfortunately there’s a huge overlap between the unvaccinated and the ones who don’t want to wear masks at all and want to go out into crowded public spaces. I’d have respect for anyone who wants to remain unvaccinated but who also stays home and does not go out in public and has all groceries and supplies delivered to their door.

    5. LTL*

      The longer this goes on, the less sympathy I have for anti-vaxxers. Things improved so much after the vaccines came out and now they’re getting worse. Again. AGAIN. I cannot deal with the people who are responsible for turning this into a years-long crisis.

      I have a friend who refuses to get vaccinated. But would I feel bad if she was fired from her job for it? Perhaps a bit but like… we live in a society and actions have consequences.

    8. RagingADHD*

      I can summon a modicum of respect, in the abstract, for people who believe they are standing on principle (even when they are completely wrong).

      None at all for lying, scamming, belly-crawling cowards.

      1. Ins mom*

        Yes, if you don’t believe it’s serious, or just choose not to be vaccinated, that’s on you, ( you’re wrong, but that’s your decision) but own it, for heaven’s sake!

    9. JustaTech*

      Good.
      CNN was (as far as I’ve read) unambiguous about the rules about being vaccinated. People’s lives are on the line. This isn’t padding a resume. This is a safety risk.

  48. I've Never Had To Pick A Name Before*

    After reading LW5’s question today about a masculine business casual wardrobe, I was hoping to crowdsource some info for a feminine wardrobe. Background: I work for a nonprofit that serves vulnerable populations. I typically wear jeans and clean sneakers like white vans or adidas. I’d like to dress up a bit more but get stuck on how to do it, especially in the summer (fall and winter means sweaters, which generally look nicer IMO). Anyone out there dress a step above me and have any suggestions? My initial thought is that it comes down to shoes, but I struggle picking out shoes that look nicer with jeans.

    1. Person from the Resume*

      I love Clark’s flats with jeans. They are comfortable and IMO do a lot to dress up jeans.

      My go to tops are stretchy pullovers not tucked in so comfortable as t-shirts but definitely look more dressed up.

      I also like dress pants because they are often not as thick or tight as jeans and therefore cooler in the summer.

    2. Female-type person*

      I assume you want to look relatable to the population you serve so you don’t want to dress up too much, just add a bit of polish? Consider colored jeans and more interesting sneakers, like the leopard print or camo Rothys that slip on. I have leather Ecco Soft 7 sneakers that are super comfortable and a tiny bit polished. See if you can upgrade your basic tees to more interesting knit tops, if button up shirts like your body, you might see if that works for you (my body likes a popover style rather than buttons all the way down the front, less opportunity for a gape.) As the weather cools down, consider adding a topper to the jean and top formula, like a utility jacket (watch the pocket placement!) or a cardigan. I find that the third piece–the topper–takes mere clothing to the “outfit” level.

      1. I've Never Had To Pick A Name Before*

        Exactly, I want to “blend in” with our population. I agree about the 3rd piece, maybe that’s why I find it a little easier in the cooler months, it just comes more naturally. This is all great advice, thank you!!

    3. Respectfully, Pumat Sol*

      You can polish up jeans+sneakers with a nicer top. Just something more blousey. You can also polish up with small accessories like a necklace, bracelet or watch. None of these things has to be expensive, but the right little touches can really take an outfit up a notch.

    5. Parakeet*

      I’m not feminine with my wardrobe, but “moccasin”-type shoes of the sort that you can get from LL Bean, might work as a step up from sneakers, and seem pretty neutral in terms of gender expression in much the way that sneakers are.

    6. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      If you are a skirt-wearer, you can casual down skirts to some extent with graphic tees or denim jackets.

      I also second the Rothy’s (or similar patterned/bright-colored flats) with straight-leg jeans. The other day I went onsite (usually remote) and realized right after I got out of my car to go into the building that I had accidentally put on one red shoe and one blue of the same style. :P (I do mix and match my shoes on my own time for funsies, but I hadn’t done it intentionally that day.)

    7. Purple Penguin*

      I’d recommend trying to experiment with different styles as a way to try dressing up. Clothing subscription services like StitchFix or RentTheRunway would be a good way to do this as you can indicate what kind of style you’d like and then try it out without much commitment. Personal stylists can also be a great resource (check out Lillian Charles in GA as an example) they can seem expensive up front but they can also save time, money and effort in the long run.

    8. Damn it, Hardison!*

      Ballet flats (I recommend FitFlops; stupid name, good shoes) and a necklace or earrings can elevate jeans and a sweater nicely. Also, for jeans, a dark wash generally looks less casual than light wash or distressed jeans (that might just be my personal preference, though.)

    9. I exist*

      As someone formerly working in a similar field where jeans and sneakers were not allowed (so dumb) but it was helpful to be dressed at least on a similar level to clients, I had different range of looks depending on if I was meeting with clients in the office, doing non client-facing work, or doing community outreach/events.

      For summer shoes, can you do sandals or open toed shoes? Not always safe in some environments. I had some that were pretty comfortable flat or super low heel. If not, there really isn’t much in between for summer other than flats.
      Any season: Toms/lookalikes. I also love (but don’t own) women’s oxford style shoes in various colors.
      Fall/winter: boots!
      I had some more casual khaki pants – more like stretch skinny jeans, colored chinos, cropped “dress” pants that could be dressed up or down, but most of these probably aren’t as fashionable anymore. Skirts and dresses in cute/fun designs are a nice in between.

    10. Paris Geller*

      This is about the level of casual/business-y my workplace has. I’m definitely adjusting to being allowed to wear jeans (I started in June, and my last place was basically one step up on the business casual ladder–slacks & khakis were fine but not jeans). I agree with some of the other suggestions–you can definitely take it a step up by changing your shoes to something that’s still casual but a little sleeker. I see other people suggest Rothy’s and Tom’s–I have multiples of both of those brands and highly recommend them. I’m a shoe person so I have a handful, but if you invest in even one pair of Rothy’s in can really elevate a look. I’d go for one of their square, points, or flats in a neutral color. They’re not cheap but I find they’re really comfortable and hold up really well, plus they’re machine washable. Also, accessorizing can really amp up a casual look from “clothes” to “outfit”. A piece of jewelry here or there works, but if you’re not a big jewelry person (I’m not) scarves are great too–heavier ones for fall & winter and thin, lightweight ones for spring. I also love the look of a more casual-cut blazer with jeans.

    11. EmKay*

      Switch from blue jeans to black (not that faded grey, I mean black black) and upgrade your sneakers to loafers. If I could afford Tod’s that’s what I’d want, but the Cole Haan pair I got on eBay are comfy and look sharp :)

    12. Bon voyage*

      In a similar vein, does anyone have a recommendation for comfortable pants (masc or femme leaning) that are a step up from jeans and fit wider hips? I like the softness of Uniqlo’s leggings pants, but the fit leaves a gapping waistband (or is way too small elsewhere).

    13. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      If I’m doing sneakers and jeans, maybe add a blazer over a casual top to give the look a bit more of a professional vibe, whereas jeans and heels you can get away with no blazer since the heels are what dress it up. You have options, it’s more about what you can add to the outfit to give it a signal you’re elevating beyond what you would wear at home.

      Another option, especially if you don’t have a ton of extra cash, is to start collecting scarves and costume jewelry. You’d be surprised how much nicer a sweater and jeans combo comes across with a bold necklace or scarf, it just really ties everything together.

    14. Siege*

      I like casual dresses for the summer, if you’re a dress person. A skater dress or other fit ‘n flare style in a jersey knit is definitively casual but cooler without a jacket. Pay attention to whether a princess line or a skater style is more flattering for you, because that will also up the polish. I have an extremely short waist, so princess line looks a little more flattering for me, because skater style rarely sits at my waist. A sundress is probably too casual, but for dresses, a lot of business casual is in the fabric and the fit, and a tight cotton is more casual than a tight jersey, to my eye. Maxi-dresses can go either way.

      If jeans are acceptable, a denim short in a Bermuda style might be a good summer option. Same with a denim capri pant, especially with a hem detail like embroidery. One outfit I like for summer is a Bermuda short in a darker wash and with a hemmed leg, paired with a camisole top in a solid color, and a white button-down over the top that I wear unbuttoned, the same as I wear a flannel in the winter. It’s a very casual look and even though it has the overshirt with it, it’s not warm because I pick the shirt to be very thin and not in need of ironing. Pair it with a fisherman sandal or other casual sandal and you’re in good shape. If you have special footwear needs like needing easy-clean or covered toes, Crocs would work with this.

      One option if you like browsing would be to look at clothing stores or websites that cater roughly to your population. When you say vulnerable populations, I hear Old Navy and Target – not so much fast fashion, not high-end, more likely to have outfit displays than Wal-Mart. I’m certainly not a retail expert, but my estimate as a clotheshorse is that Target turns over their displays completely about once a month, so going in to the store every two weeks will show you some outfit ideas that are generally ahead of the weather (ie, Target is transitioning to their fall layers style now in my area where it’s still summer, so get your shorts last week!) You can also browse thrift stores, but the constructed outfits will be very one-off. If you’re plus-size, browse Torrid; Lane Bryant is aimed a few steps higher. Actually, just browse Torrid anyway and recreate the outfit at Old Navy if you’re not plus-size.

      I don’t know if this is universal, but to my eye, your outfit is at the level of your loudest piece. If you wear a black skirt suit with a band tee, you’re casual. If you wear a casual knit dress with a pearl necklace and earrings, you’re a step or two above casual. The piece that is most stand-out (the brightly-colored graphic shirt and the pale pearls) seems to define the outfit. Going up is always more tricky than coming down, though; the pearls don’t elevate the dress to formal by themselves the way the band shirt drops the suit to casual. If you had pearls, a well-fitted constructed blazer, dark tights, and boots with your knit dress you’d be getting closer to business formal.

    15. Distractinator*

      I wear a lot of scoopneck knit tshirts in solid sedate colors (black, olive, wine, navy…) with minimal neckline ribbing and not super scoopy, just enough to show collarbones; I know they’re basically nothign alike but I consider that the female-presenting equivalent of a polo-collar for menswear casual. I have some necklaces I like that have some coordinating color (smallish beads, or 1.5-inch disk pendants, basically more than just a delicate charm on a chain, but far from a “statement necklace”). I usually wear black or tan jeans, but covid-casual I’ve reverted to blue denim. I agree that fall and winter I look classier because I can easily add a cardigan or blazer, or even a coordinating v-neck sweater, but in summer anything that adds a layer is a hot disaster. So shoes may be where it’s at. This may not be enough of an upgrade for you but it’s what I live in, check out skechers womens flats – they sell a gradient between standard sneakers through cleanline sneakers, low-vamp or mary-jane straps, and into flat-style with sneaker soles or less-casual soles.

  49. Trivia Newton-John*

    I’m starting to job-search and my prior company merged with my prior-prior company well after I left both of them.
    When they were called to verify my employment with NowMerged company, they verified my title, years working there and my salary. When asked if they would re-hire me, they said they have a “neutral reference policy” and did not answer the question as I didn’t sign something prior to my leaving.
    Would this be considered a red flag?

    1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      I’m inclined to say this is fair and wouldn’t be a red flag; the current company isn’t in a position to comment I suppose. You use the word verify which helps, since their position is “Trivia Newton-John worked here” and aren’t able to reference.

      It WOULD be a red flag if I called a reference provided to me by the candidate and I ended up with their prior company’s HR department refusing to do anything beyond verifying the employment, since I would be expecting to have a conversation specifically about the candidate and their work history.

      But if I was just calling for verification purposes, threw out the re-hire question just in case and they didn’t bite, I don’t think that necessarily says anything negative about the candidate. Especially if it’s a while after they worked there.

  50. KaciHall*

    Does anyone know if it’s still a thing where companies have to let you work from home if schools are. Closed due to covid? Our school system pushed back the start date a week to fight over mask mandates and my job let me know that I was unable to work from home unless my son or I had contact with a covid positive person or were ill from suspected covid. I’m not looking forward to trying to find him a sitter if the schools close again. Well, WHEN the schools close again because the school board refused to require masks.

    1. Annony*

      I didn’t think companies were ever required to allow employee’s to work from home because of child care issues. I know many chose to but I don’t think they were forced to (other than knowing that many of their employees would quit if they didn’t).

      1. Disco Janet*

        Part of the FFCRA (Families First Coronavirus Response Act) was that if a child’s school shut down due to Covid, they qualified for extended leave. Many workplaces offered work from home in order to avoid having all of these employees out on leave.

        Unfortunately, the FFCRA (or this part of it, at least) expired at the end of 2020. So no, KaciHall, this is unfortunately not still a thing unless your company decides to make it one.

        1. KaciHall*

          That’s what I was thinking of, thanks. This year my kiddo is starting kindergarten and it’s going to be a cluster**** I can already tell.

  51. Juror*

    I just got selected for grand jury duty for 2 days a week for the next 4 months.
    I’m expected to figure out how to fit my work into the remaining 3 days each week — and have little guidance from my boss, the CEO, who is very uninvolved in my day to day but has generally high expectations of my output. Any general tips / advice from anyone who has gone through this or something similar before?

    1. Free Meerkats*

      I was seated on a jury for a trial that lasted 4 months (was supposed to last 6, but they settled after 4…) I was lucky that I had a union job for a city in CA, so I got my full pay so long as I gave the jury pay to the city. The day after I was seated, one of our two lab techs turned in his notice, I was back-up lab tech in addition to being the only person who did my job in the city; and my job is required by Federal law. Even a letter from the City Attorney didn’t get me released.

      So I was full time jury member, doing the absolute minimum that I could manage to keep my program compliant, and alternate weekends in the lab for half-days. Plus I had a part-time job as a sailing instructor/charter skipper. I was averaging 20 hours of OT a week plus another 8-12 hours a week on boats.

      For my program, I had a sit down discussion with my manager to lay out how I was going to do the minimum that was needed to keep us in compliance with the law, the things I was going to delay, and the things I needed someone else to do while I was unavailable. That’s the kind of discussion you need to have with your boss.

      1. It happens*

        All props- that is admirable. Thank you for all three (city work, jury duty, and sail instruction.). Way to make it work!

    2. JustaTech*

      My mom did this back in the 90’s (she actually said it was the best jury experience she had, as you’re not deciding guilt and some of the cases were funny). That said, her job at the time wasn’t particularly challenging, so there wasn’t any trouble getting all her work done in 4 days rather than 5.

      (I loved it because it meant that my mom drove just me to school and sometimes we would stop for bagels and coffee, something we never did with my brother.)

  52. Undercover*

    Hi, I’d love some interview advice. I have an upcoming interview for a job that is one title up from my current job. There is one person with my job title who is senior to me, and seniority is a major factor in this company but not everything. It would be an uphill climb to get this promotion over her, but it’s not impossible.

    I am confident that I am much more suited to the job than my senior coworker, let’s call her L. L is not reliable and dislikes the work that makes up the majority of the work for this job title. (We do a little of that work now, but the promotion essentially specializes in it.) However, she wants this job because it’s a natural progression from her current job title and she wants more money, and like, I get that! So do I! In her position I would apply for it too.

    I know that in the interview they’re going to ask why I’m the MOST qualified candidate for the job. I hate this question usually because I’ve typically only applied for jobs where I didn’t know who else was in the pool, so how could I know if I was the best or not?

    However, in this situation I will know who else is applying, and I know my interviewers will know, and we all know each other knows, etc. Should I just hype up my strengths in the areas I know L is weak in, or would it be reasonable to say something more specific? I wouldn’t bad mouth L, or anything, but I’m afraid that I’m going too far the other way and being too timid to point out that I produce faster, more high level work in this specific area?

    Should I flat out say I’m the highest producer in this area at my job title (true, but I don’t think anyone else in my job title will apply, making it essentially a pool of 2 people anyway) and leave it at that, or mention her by name, or???

    I am overthinking this, but I know I have an uphill climb to overcome the seniority burden, and ultimately it may go to her on that basis anyway.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I don’t think I would directly compare yourself to L, but if you have the metrics, I would say “I produced more teapots than anyone else in the last three quarters” without mentioning who “anyone else” is.

      1. meyer lemon*

        Yeah, it would probably be helpful to quantify your achievements as much as possible, if that makes sense for the kind of work you do. If you have some objective facts on your side, that would probably sway them more than vague, subjective assessments would. Or if you have a lot of positive feedback from managers/clients/etc to draw on, that can be helpful.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I recently was one of two finalists for an internal promotion and one of the interviewers asked us both, specifically, “tell me why you would be better than (the other person) for this job.” That didn’t sit well with either of us, and in fact the other one flat out said (to me, not to the interviewer) that if the job required her to be competitive in that manner (which it shouldn’t have done) then she didn’t want it. But as it turns out, we both sidestepped the question a little bit and instead answered about unique strengths that we each thought we would bring that nobody else could, rather than specifically addressing weaknesses about the other person (because we didn’t work closely enough together to have a good grasp on each other’s weaknesses anyway, we were doing different jobs in different departments).

      All that to say – I would not get specific and refer to her by name, but you can definitely address your strengths, because you don’t necessarily know if nobody else in your job field is applying. As an interviewer, if you were gung-ho to point out to me how much better you are specifically than Lucinda, when there are actually a dozen other people who ALSO do the same thing, that makes me wonder a little bit about your concept of teamwork, working together for common goals, how eager are you going to be to bash other people to get what you want, etc, whereas if you factually point out that you are the highest producer of all the teapot polishers and contribute to the three-year streak of the teapot polishing department hitting its monthly metrics consistently, that’s just … you presenting facts that show me how you contribute to your team.

    3. TGIF again*

      I think you should do both. Explain your strengths in the area’s L is weak in and also point out that you are the highest producer in that area at your current job.

      DO avoid bad mouthing anyone.

    4. Pocket Mouse*

      Aside from any metrics, if you are interested in the work that makes up the majority of the position, make sure to say so convincingly. Don’t reference L in this part either—the interviewers will be able to see any difference in enthusiasm themselves.

    5. Distractinator*

      I’d go with generalities – “In Currentrole we focus more on X with only a little bit of Y, but Newjob really focuses on Y a lot. Not everyone actually enjoys that aspect of Currentrole, but I really do, and I believe it’s one of my strengths even at my current level. This past year I [metric, metric]. ”
      I don’t think I’d call L out as the person you have in mind when you say “not everyone likes this” but I’d definitely call out your performance as compared to the typical Currentrole employee.

  53. Guava*

    Has anyone completed a medical prescreening form for employment? I am in the US and this is for a part time, non-armed, federal position.
    I am not required to release my medical records and disclosure is also voluntary…
    I’ve disclosed the meds I’m allergic to but I really don’t want to disclose X. X is a benign, congenital thing I have that has not impacted my 30+ years on earth. I’ve read over the disqualifying conditions (and it’s nearly everything under the sun) and X still shouldn’t disqualify me, but I feel they want any reason to cut you. Since this is part time, the position I am applying for does not come with the free health care given to full time employees.
    I am strongly leaning towards listing it and if they don’t want to hire me because of it, then it isn’t meant to be. I’ve already stress cried over this. It’s like “don’t tell, and we won’t ask” but could it bite me in the butt later? I don’t want to omit the truth, but do they really want to know about X?

    1. Annony*

      If disclosure is voluntary then I don’t see how not telling them could have a negative impact later. I would lean towards not saying anything.

      1. irene adler*

        Agreed.

        Is X going to adversely impact your ability to perform the job tasks? IF no, then why give out information that might -unfairly-be used to disqualify you from a job you want to do?
        Be the decision-maker in this process. When it comes time to accept/reject the job offer, then decide if X is going to be a problem with the job. Don’t let others decide X will a problem with the job.

    2. Squidhead*

      Will you have to complete a physical? If so, could X be identified on a physical by someone who didn’t already know you had it? If these things are true, I’d think it would be better to disclose and be able to say “it hasn’t caused any problems,” versus them now wanting a full workup. (The best example I can think of is something like a heart murmur. It’s audible on an exam, so you can’t pretend it’s not there, but many people have benign murmurs.)

      If this is clearly voluntary, though, I can’t see what long-term effects it would have. Of course people would omit things they thought might disqualify them! But then they wouldn’t be able to ask for accommodations for those things either. Maybe the employer would use it to deny a future WC claim? Like, you already had back pain, so you can’t claim your injury caused it? But it doesn’t sound like that’s relevant for your condition anyway.

  54. GoldenMaple*

    Looking for feedback on a potential safety issue at my workplace.

    I work on site for an essential business. There is a homeless man living in his car in our parking lot. The car appears to be inoperable. Management definitely knows about this guy because he actually spooked the opening manager a few months ago when she was arriving early in the morning (she remained in her car and waited for a second employee to arrive). The coffee shop in our lobby recently reopened and he spends hours in their seating area and makes repeated trips inside to use our public restrooms (shared by employees and clients). He is usually walking around the lot and occasionally hanging around outside the entrance when we leave after the business closes for the day. Overnight parking is not allowed in our lot. Typically, local police ticket vehicles parked overnight and after 7 days of tickets, they have the car towed. So far, I cannot tell if this car has been ticketed, and he has been living in that car since early spring.

      1. GoldenMaple*

        My concern was walking to and from my car at night before business hours and after close with this guy lurking in the parking lot. So far, he’s proven harmless, but what happens if more homeless people start camping in the lot?

        I honestly wasn’t sure if this was a big enough deal to go to my boss over, but it could also just be the straw that broke the camel’s back. We’re understaffed, we’re on edge because of pharmaceutical thefts, we’re getting screamed at by customers, and then there’s nowhere to park while Homeless Guy is taking up several parking spacrs.

        1. Mobius 1*

          Please do not report this guy to the police or chase him off the lot. Call 311 or something instead. It sounds like as far as anyone can tell, the only risk currently extant is to him.

        2. Hope this helps*

          I would check with your security guard – is there a reason he isn’t having them move on, or could he be entering and re-entering the lot? I would work through this avenue first, and then look into what the local police/business district can do. Our city has a dedicated police homeless unit, and our business district has a security team that can respond to issues such as this.

          We’ve heard differing advice over the years – sometimes having someone “camp out” so to speak can actually provide more safety. It really depends on the person. We did have a situation where that was true, but when they moved on, the next person attracted many others/trouble. See what your security guard (and the actual company) recommend. If you’ve had thefts as well, it might be good to add a fenced/gated/locked parking lot system. That would help on multiple fronts.

    2. Colette*

      How is it a safety issue? It doesn’t sound like he’s done anything to threaten anyone. (I guess COVID could be a concern, but I’m not sure how he’s more of a risk than the people visiting the coffee shop.)

      Do the local police ticket vehicles parked overnight on the street, or in your lot? Around here a private lot would most likely be your problem.

      1. GoldenMaple*

        They ticket on the street as well, but the company forbids overnight parking specifically because we’re next to a motel and a trucking depot right off the highway.

        1. Colette*

          Sure, but the company forbidding overnight parking doesn’t mean the police will ticket for it. The company may have to enforce that themselves.

    3. going back to the office*

      seems like he hasn’t bothered anybody though… if he was going to be someone who poses a safety risk wouldn’t he have showcased some kind of risky behavior by now?

      1. Mobius 1*

        I’m with the rest of the people here in saying that, prima facie, it doesn’t sound like there’s much of a safety issue. That said, I would want to hear the exact way the spooking of the opening manager played out, to be sure. (It could be as innocuous as “WHOAMYGOSH that car has a person in it” or as…nocuous(?) as him jumping out from behind a tree.)

        1. GoldenMaple*

          Closing security guard is supposed to ensure that the lot is empty after employees go home. The manager was coming in at 3 am to be there for a delivery truck and was startled to see a car with all the doors open. Homeless guy was sleeping in the backseat.

          1. OlympiasEpiriot*

            That seems like the homeless man is probably more at risk of being attacked. He probably was too hot to be in his car with the doors locked, but, someone could get access to him that way.

          2. Colette*

            So it sounds like the issue is with the security guard, who is not doing his job, and not that there is a real safety reason here.

    5. Llama face!*

      I concur with the other commenters that there doesn’t seem to be a clear safety issue here for you or your workplace (in terms of him being a threat to you). However if you are concerned about his safety or the potential liability of him being on your property (if it’s your parking lot) you could always look into what services are available to support people experiencing homelessness and ask him if he’d like that info or if he wants to be connected to those support services.

    6. OlympiasEpiriot*

      What’s the safety issue? Is the car blocking an emergency exit or fire hydrant?

    7. RagingADHD*

      The police generally don’t enforce parking policies on private property, only public streets. If this guy has been there for 4-5 months without even speaking to anyone or doing anything threatening, it’s unlikely he will do.

      If the company is concerned about liability for overnight parking, that’s a management issue. If management and the security guard are aware of this guy and choose not to do anything about it, the company’s liability isn’t your concern.

      How the coffee shop chooses to handle his presence certainly isn’t your concern at all, since you don’t own it or work there.

      Certainly you should discuss with your manager any concerns you have about walking to your car or having a parking space. You could have the guard walk you out, ask for more lighting, or ask for dedicated parking spaces for staff.

    8. fhqwhgads*

      So far this doesn’t sound like a safety issue. It sounds like an illegal parking issue. If it’s a private lot, the ticketing/towing won’t come from parking enforcement. If whoever owns the lot wanted it towed for being there overnight, they’d have it towed.
      However, many places have regulations about storing inoperable vehicles not-in-a-garage. That’s the only violation I can think of that might be in play here that wouldn’t be a “whoever owns the lot” issue. That of course assumes there is such a regulation and that the car is in fact inoperable. But even in those cases, generally the vehicle owner would be given a certain amount of time to either store the vehicle correctly or make it operable. And someone would have to report it. And it’s low priority for enforcement. So that might take months.
      But this situation seems most unsafe for the person living in the car, not the people who work nearby.
      Unless there’s a situation where there’s already super limited parking and not enough for employees who need to be there and this is taking up a precious spot, it’s not really a work issue.

  55. Prepping for the future*

    I was moved to a different temporary project and a new position, by temporary I mean 2 years or so. They have now hired the third FTE to replace the work I was doing, this one at a couple pay levels higher than I am and is a job I would have oved to be able to at least apply for but could not since I was assigned to this project. I’m now concerned I won’t have any landing place after the temporary project is over, and also a little worried that I have bad habits that are causing me to be underpaid. Does anyone have advice on prep work to make sure I can get the kind of wage I feel that I’m worth after my project is up?

    1. Ancient Llama*

      When you say bad habits, you mean like not researching what you are worth or afraid to negotiate? AAM has a ton of advice (i even liked a recent commenter saying they were scared but kept imagining people on this site cheering them on). That spot they just filled is good research and a negotiating point: you can note how that seems like you should be paid comparible based on job duties.
      If you mean habits like being called hard to approach, abbrasive, too long winded (all things i’ve been called over 30+ yrs) i would first ask a trusted friend/advisor for a clear perspective (my advisor noted that the person who called me unapproachable was from a whole other group and we only worked on a project 6 months, but noone who knew me longer felt that way. so i focused working on reaching out better when starting to work with other groups). Then find an accountability coach (could be same person) to check in with every week or 2 for at least 6 months (the whole 20 days to a habit doesn’t work for things like this) to talk about progress and tweaks.

      Also, don’t worry so much on what you are missing while on this temp project. I’ve spent a lot of my career on “temp jobs” where i learned a lot that i pivoted into a great cover letter and behavioral interview answers. Yes we all imagine how many opportunities we lose out on when stuck committed to something else, but there are just as many coming up.

      Lastly, do talk to your boss, if you trust them, about if you are “cut off” from applying for an open requisition. This is a business relationship: if you get the other job they should be able to backfill you in your current spot same as if you went out on medical leave or won the lottery. So check if you really are not able to apply (corp policies).

  56. Dealing with Fraud*

    Have you experienced having a fraud investigation happen to a senior manager in your NPO? We are currently going through that and while we are dealing with all legal steps at our jurisdiction, I had some questions relating to the effect of this.

    How did you keep staff morale up?
    Did your NPO survive?
    How did you manage public fall-out?
    Any tips for the board/staff to come to terms with this?

    1. LQ*

      My executive director committed a bunch of fraud. He actually left the state and the local jurisdiction decided to not press forward. But we couldn’t talk about it so it was brutal. It was a TINY org. There were 2 of us. So this may not apply to you if you’re bigger enough.

      We didn’t, I didn’t. The community didn’t. (It was a community-based organization and there were some other dynamics going on that let a lot of folks to blaming me for it because I was outside of this group, the ED was a group member. It hurt. A lot.)
      Nope. We went under. I had to call up the board chair and call him into a meeting and say listen, you have to lay me off today because if you lay me off you can pay these other bills and these other contractors who are community members. You have to lay me off, it has to happen today because you can’t pay me for today, and you cannot wait. He cried. He was a very stoic man but he cried. It was horrible and heartbreaking.
      We tried to spin-off projects into other organizations, which was the most successful it was at managing fall-out. This event, this project, this development that went on to survive. Those were all my pieces of work and were …community branded rather than organizationally branded so it helped. It wasn’t NPO EVENT!, it was Community Event! so it could continue under another organization. EDs stuff was all hollow fraud nothing so there was nothing to salvage in his work.

      It’s been a decade and it still wakes me up at night. What could I have done differently, I should have been able to see it…etc…

      One person on the board really wanted to re-brand and try again. That’s not what the community wanted and I argued pretty heavily with this person that the right thing to do was not to make it about the NPO, it wasn’t about us, it was about the community, and the best we could do was support them and spin-off what would be of value to them. Keeping it would have just been about our own egos. (I may have made some pretty low blows to win that argument, but I’m proud of the stance I took to this day.)

      Good luck.

  57. Parakeet*

    I recently got my formal diagnosis, following a full neuropsych eval, of co-occurring autism and (combined-presentation) ADHD (I already had diagnoses of a couple of mental illnesses). I’ve read, I think, almost everything in the archives of this blog related to both autism and ADHD (because the neuropsych eval results were, let’s say, not a huge shock, and there were reasons I sought an eval), but I’m curious about the experiences of others with both. What kinds of accommodations, if any, were helpful? Did you disclose at work (for context, I work at an org that is very progressive, and in many ways, even beyond the basics, very diverse, but I’m not sure it’s super knowledgeable about neurodiversity, though I think most people there would want to be)? What’s your experience been like in the working world in general? If you have a job where you have to adapt to clients’/customers’ different communication styles (as I do), what has worked well for you?

    1. Mobius 1*

      Fellow alphabet soup connoisseur reporting for duty. While I’ve not disclosed to an employer as yet, I think I probably will disclose to my next one just so they have context for my various quirks and peccadilloes. I was diagnosed young, so I don’t necessarily know how you would do this, but I recommend stepping back and looking at your behavior so you can identify what coping mechanisms you’ve been using (without knowing what they were), and what parts of them work better than others. For my part, at my last job, I was able to have YouTube in my ears at work (true crime etc, mostly things where you didn’t need to actually watch), and I was also able to arrange my daily tasks so that I would come to a natural stopping point almost exactly at the end of my attention span, so I could take a break and short walk without it interrupting my workflow irreparably.

      1. Allypopx*

        +1 that I disclose far more often to explain oddities than to ask for accommodations. Most accommodations I can create for myself but acquiring the right organizational tools or formatting my workflow correctly for me (of course this requires some self awareness/familiarity with your needs and a job where you’re mostly self directed). YMMV depending on your job and your individual needs.

        1. Allypopx*

          Things I need:
          colorful office supplies so my office is stimulating and they are harder to ‘blend into the background’
          ability to use headphones
          ability to do distraction tasks every so often (like reading AAM)
          walk-around tasks (or short desk breaks)
          other people around for accountability and social stimulation – this has been the hardest during covid

          1. Allypopx*

            Also given this is AAM I do feel like I need to specify that social stimulation isnt chatting constantly or bothering people. Occasionally bouncing ideas off colleagues, quick water cooler hellos, exchange of shouts when something particularly frustrating happens…just normal office interactions.

    2. Disco Janet*

      I have a coworker I’m close with who has an autism and ADHD diagnosis. Our profession doesn’t make too many reasonable accommodations possible (like, flexible start time isn’t possible when there will be 34 students in your classroom at 7:45 AM.) We’ve discussed this before because he really likes helping students with similar diagnosis figure out what strategies work for them. His main two are:

      1. Communicating about anything of importance with coworkers, bosses, or parents (or clients, for the non-education world) via email so he can take more time to figure out his wording and run it by one of us if needed.

      2. Taking color coded notes on EVERYTHING. Especially at meetings. Helps him greatly with focus and organization.

      He’s pretty casual with sharing his diagnosis – but again, we work in education, so he feels strongly about helping to take away some of the stigma. His bosses and most coworkers are aware because it has come up in conversation. He hasn’t formally disclosed to HR or anything – like, our boss is fine with doing important convos via email/in writing, so he doesn’t need any official accommodation to make that happen.

      Not sure if this is helpful – I think so much of it varies based on your field and your boss.

      1. Mobius 1*

        Sheesh, I’m sitting here worrying about if I’d be able to handle the stimulation from one kid, and your coworker is out there handling 34 first thing in the morning? Mad lad. Respect to him.

      2. Parakeet*

        Thank you!

        The email (or instant message) one is big for me, though sometimes hard in my current job, as I’m not allowed to use email as my main form of communication with clients (I’m in a type of social services where confidentiality is important), and most of my coworkers seem to prefer calls. I do use it as much as I can, and I think remote pandemic work has made people more okay with that than they would have been when we were all in an office.

        I do take a lot of notes – though not color-coded – but my writing/fine motor skills aren’t great, which makes it a little harder. For client calls I do handwrite notes and it does help with focus. For anything else I do better if I’m typing them. I can type a lot faster than I can handwrite. I’m known for taking pretty detailed notes when it’s my turn in the rotation at meetings.

        I do get somewhat flexible start time, which is good because one of my mental illnesses modified my circadian rhythm in bizarre ways, which I have had some but limited success in fixing. I would have a lot of trouble dealing with a K-12 teacher’s early and fairly inflexible hours, so props to everyone who’s pulling that off!

    3. Caboose*

      I don’t disclose, but that’s because I work in software now, where being “quirky” is pretty par for the course.

      Previously, though, I developed a strategy for making phone calls that I just desperately do not want to make: I call the business line outside of business hours, so I go to voice mail. I leave a message with as much information as possible, and then I let the person know when would be a good time for me to take their return call. That way, I can brace myself for an incoming call and don’t have to psych myself up to hit the dial button– I just answer them!

      1. Tired Accountant*

        I haven’t disclosed because I am worried about if people would get weird about it. I’m also self diagnosed though.

    4. Nesprin*

      The biggest accommodation for me was working the right job- I’ve found that my ADHD means that I do best in positions with short deadlines, constant novelty and minimal paperwork, in institutions that value results over coworker comity. I’ve gotten better about figuring out what I will just not be good with (copy editing, internal politicking, filing and other consistent, boring tasks etc) and what I will be good at (building a new widget in a weekend, learning new things and advocating for new ideas, etc).

  58. going back to the office*

    i work at a major corporation. we’ve been really quite good with covid so far — everyone was sent home right away including our call center employees, and we’ve been home since. but we’re starting to go back in september and they’re not requiring vaccines — you can report your status but you don’t have to show proof. and masks are optional. we’re in a northeast metro area where our vaccination rate is over 50% or more but that’s not that high. it’s frustrating that they’re taking the easy way out. a lot of my coworkers are upset. there are grumblings in a public slack channel but i don’t know if our corner of our corporation can actually affect change. other companies of our caliber are requiring vaccinations, i wish we’d do that. i’m not at high risk, i have no one at home who is, but plenty of my coworkers do.

  59. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

    I have applied to two positions this summer through two different recruiting firms. I had good initial phone interviews with both recruiter reps. One firm called me a couple weeks later to tell me by phone that I wasn’t progressing because the other candidates already had that job title, it was a very pleasant, courteous conversation. The other recruiter firm has not communicated with me one bit and I saw on LinkedIn that the successful candidate was celebrating their new job. My industry is relatively small, and there’s only 4-5 recruiter firms working in it. Should I/could I avoid the second firm in the future? Are they the norm, or is the first firm more the norm, with the personal touch?

    1. irene adler*

      It’s the norm. Recruiters are increasingly not continuing contact with anyone but the successful candidate.

      Get used to it.
      It may be, down the line, the second recruiter firm will have a job you are interested in. So it pays not to write them off for ghosting you this time. Just know that once you are out of the running, they won’t be in touch to let you know this.

  60. Stay or Go*

    I submitted my resignation today, manager asked if they could match new compensation would I stay? He also gave me good tips for considering whether to stay or go. Has anyone taken a counter offer and had it work out?

      1. pbnj*

        Agreed. I always heard you should never take a counter-offer. It shouldn’t have to take a job offer to be compensated at market value. I’m also not sure if you’re leaving due to money only, or if there are other issues. Keep in mind that any other issues besides money probably will still be unresolved. I’ve also heard people say that it changes how people think of you – now management knows you are a flight risk, so may be less likely to give you promotions, etc.

      2. Mental Lentil*

        Really hard agree with Kara on this one.

        That said, most resignations I’ve seen are rarely about the money and only the money. There are other factors. And when those don’t get addressed, it doesn’t end well.

        Fly. Be free!

    2. irene adler*

      What’s behind door number 3?
      IOW, are you going to forfeit future raises by accepting a counter-offer and staying? Get clear on all aspects of accepting a counter offer.

    3. photon*

      Are you leaving solely due to pay, or are there social/political/process/work duty issues that is prompting this?

      How confident are you that they won’t use this as an excuse to lay you off later, once they’ve hired a more excited employee to take over your role?

      1. photon*

        One more note: Assuming you’ve accepted another offer, how willing are you to burn a bridge at that company? (Are they a major player in your field?)

    4. searching for a new name*

      I accepted a counter offer and stayed, still there now. I burned the bridge with a new company and was fine with it due to the increased pay discrepancy. I would ask yourself what are your reasons for leaving? And if nothing changes besides pay, will you still want to leave?

  61. aiya*

    Will this new hire ever improve?

    We have a new hire on the team that I am responsible for training. I am not his manager, just a peer who is given the duty of training him. To give some context, this is his first full time job out of college. The only other work experience was an unpaid part time internship with a small start up. Our industry is pretty niche and tech-heavy, so there’s often a huge learning curve for new hires. Generally, it takes about 3 months to get a new hire up to speed. The challenges that I am seeing with this new hire, however, isn’t that he’s struggling with the technical components of the jobs. Rather, he’s struggling with the administrative parts of the job, because he lacks attention to detail and general organizational skills. When you assign a task to him, he’ll complete the task 50% of the time, and the other 50% of the time, the task goes unfinished. He’s very eager to help out, so he’ll immediately respond with “yes, I’ll do [the task]” when given an assignment, but often he’ll forget to do the item and it falls through the cracks. I have him follow up with him two or three times before it gets completed.

    Because he’s still new, many of his current responsibilities are less urgent and more administrative in nature. This means that he’s mostly responsible for things like scheduling meetings and handling invoices. I’ve caught him several times processing our invoices for the wrong amount (not a big deal – easily fixable, since the error was caught prior to paying out the vendor) and scheduling meetings on days that our offices are closed/when key stakeholders are OOO. When I catch errors like that, I’ll follow up with him and request that he redo the invoice or reschedule the meeting. Again, I am met with an enthusiastic “yes” but ultimately he does not follow through. When I remind him again, he’ll respond to me by saying something along the lines of “I’ve already scheduled the meeting for [wrong date]. It’s been taken care of.” I then have to remind him that the date he scheduled was conflicting with an OOO, and that we’ve had this conversation before. He’ll either apologize by saying that he had the dates mixed up/already had this item on his to-do list/was confused because he was juggling too many things at once.

    There was another instance where a colleague asked him to reach out to a business partner for a specific request, and he confirmed that he would follow through. A few days later, I noticed that he still hadn’t reached out to said vendor, so I reminded him and asked if he needed help. He apologized for letting it fall through the cracks and promised to follow up that day. A month later, he still had not reached out. I reminded him to reach out again, and finally, he told me that he didn’t understand what message he was supposed to be relaying to the vendor.

    There are so many other examples… I feel like all of these missteps honestly aren’t that terrible in the grand scheme of things. No one died. No business was lost. But the frequency in which these errors happen make me concerned. We’re in our slower season right now, but I’m afraid he won’t be able to handle it once our busy season picks up. I’ll also note that we’re completely remote right now, so I understand starting a new job/entering the work force is already a challenge, but having to do it remotely makes it even harder. That being said, being able to juggle multiple things, having attention to detail, and having the initiative to do your work without reminders are such essential parts of the job that I feel like this isn’t the right role for him.

    Is it appropriate for me to flag this to my manager? How do I present this to my manager without sounding whiney?Ultimately, I’m just his peer so I don’t have authority over him, but I’m the one who works most closely with him and with training him, so I am the only one with this kind of insight into his abilities.

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      Yes, I would flag it to your manager and his manager. You might also say that training him is taking too much of your time due to the iterative mistakes and lack of progress, so please reassign him.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Wow, processing invoices for the wrong amount is a serious red flag. Like I don’t know how you screw that up, especially not more than once. Invoices usually go way out of their way to make it very clear what the final dollar figure is (“AMOUNT DUE” in 24-point font).

      1. mcl*

        Yeah my spouse supervises people who generate invoices for his company’s customers, and it is a capital-letters Big Deal when those are screwed up. It screws up everything from customer relationships to revenue projections. That plus this person missing admin tasks add up to the reality that this new guy might need a lot more coaching, or might even be a bad fit. The fact that it’s his first job out of college is telling, so I think you manager needs to get looped in ASAP since this guy has been there for three months and you’ve been noticing this pattern. Your manager can hopefully have a really serious conversation with him and help him get the tools he needs/strategies to improve his performance. It will be worse if it’s been 12 months and these are still issues, and your manager will have less of a chance to fix them. You’re not throwing this guy under the bus, you’re presenting your manager with real information.

        1. aiya*

          I forgot to clarify that he has only been with us for 2 months, not 3, although I am not convinced that an additional month would make much of a difference. I brought up this new hire’s issues in a conversation with our manager around his 1-month mark, but at that time, our manager was very understanding and told me to be more patient and not to make any final judgements until he has completed 3 months on the job since it take a while to acclimate.

          1. calonkat*

            If you’re not his manager, then there may not be a lot you can do.

            What helped me with incredibly poor short term memory (it gets better every year) was writing things down.
            #1, that moved things into longer term memory
            #2, I had notes on “how to do this” and “these are things I need to fix”

            But I agree with the other commenters that these issues aren’t minor, they are huge (especially since they are not corrected, then repeated on other documents)

            The lack of caring about the issues is the biggest red flag to me. I accept that I make mistakes, but when they are found, I fix them and apologize (and try very hard not to make the same mistake again).

    3. Person from the Resume*

      Have you had the big picture conversation with him yet that he is making the same and similar mistakes over and over again and needs to fix them? As his trainer you might have some standing to do that.

      Absolutely alert your manager. This is a potentially big problem, but it is something that the new kid could fix with effort and some new skills. I would take the tact that “I want to alert you to a chronic problem with new hire. He has problems with attention to detail and general organizational skills and keeps making mistakes. I’ve corrected him, but he is making the same and similar mistakes over and over again and I am concerned that this could have a bigger impact during the busy season than it is now.”

    4. CatCat*

      Yes, I would flag the issues for your manager. “I have trained Ted on X, Y, and Z work tasks. He is making a lot of mistakes though like [examples]. Those are more mistakes than I would expect at this point and I’m concerned about the impact this will have in our busy period. What I am seeing is a lack of skills in organization and time management and he may benefit from a class specifically designed to address those issues.” Then let your manager decide what the next step is here.

    5. Just Me*

      Oh my, I can relate, same problem I have with my peer. She is always willing to help, but anything I give her gets screwed up. My manager told me to quit micro managing her, so I did. Then every time she screwed something up, I gave it to him to have her correct. It is a daily thing to correct her on something like, wrong address, why didn’t you delete this when you were told, blah blah blah. I just give anything I get that she gives me wrong and tell her to correct it. Frustrating!!

      1. aiya*

        wow! crazy to see how similar our situations are!

        That’s precisely what I am experiencing too. I try my best to remind him of the errors that need correction and send reminders for items on their to-do list, but I am afraid I’m encroaching upon micromanaging. I hate micromanaging another adult, especially given that I am not his manager, but it does seem like he looks A LOT of closely-monitored supervision.

        1. It happens*

          This isn’t micromanaging. If attention to detail is an important part of the job (and sounds like it is) then this person is in the wrong job. Two months in is enough time to see that. Have one more big picture convo with new guy – hey you consistently miss details, they are important. And then with boss – time to cut our losses, new guy has great attitude, no follow through. It’s new grad hiring season, find someone who can do the job! Good luck. I know that people avoid difficult conversations, and somehow prefer to just live with less, but you all can do better, even new guy!

        2. AcademiaNut*

          This strikes me as a *major* problem. He’s given basic tasks, does them incorrectly, is told to fix the mistakes, and doesn’t do it. And he does this repeatedly. The only reason this hasn’t cause big problems for your employer is because you’re checking everything he does to catch and fix issues. He fails to do tasks, or does them wrong, *half the time*!

          So I would go to your boss and push it harder. Make a list, and really stress the frequency and nature of the mistakes, the lack of ability to correct the mistakes, and the amount of time you’re spending monitoring and fixing them, and the consequences if you don’t (wrong invoices, people showing up for a meeting to find a closed office).

          Honestly, I’d go with multiple times a day check ins. First thing in the morning, you go over his todo list. At 2pm you meet, and you run through the items and check for completeness. And have him email you a list before the end of the day with the status. If that doesn’t work, increase them to every couple of hours if needed. Maybe decrease is workload, and prohibit him from volunteering for anything, to see if he can cope with small amounts of work.

          He’s showing that he’s not capable of doing the job with moderate supervision, so at this point you either have to micromanage him, fire him, or commit yourself to redoing all his work.

    6. Stitching Away*

      This is a big red flag. There is a huge difference between forgetting to follow through on something versus “I don’t know how to do this task, so I’ll lie and say I’ll do it and never ask for help to learn how to do it.”

      Both are issues, but the second is extremely serious.

    1. Rey*

      I just listened to a podcast with Kate Eberle Walker, the author of The Good Boss: 9 Ways Every Manager Can Support Women at Work. I haven’t read the book, but I liked the podcast interview

    2. irene adler*

      Hmmm…might like:
      Managing to Change the World: The Nonprofit Manager’s Guide to Getting Results
      By Alison Green

    3. OtterB*

      I like “What Management Is: How It Works and Why It’s Everyone’s Business” by Joan Magretta.

    4. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      Late to this party but wanted to recommend Julie Zhuo’s “The Making of a Manager.” It skews heavily to the tech industry since that is her experience but there are a lot of good takeaways regardless of what kind of work you do.

  63. Invisible Crayon*

    Started a new job recently. One person in my dept (not my immediate team) has… a lot of negative experiences of other people. Like, enough that I’m thinking they’re the common denominator.

    So I’ve started saying “sorry to hear that” and changing the subject. I feel unkind but I don’t want to get sucked into a vortex. Please tell me it’s ok not to encourage them?

    Perhaps worth mentioning: it’s not a toxic workplace, people are generally nice, and they seem to take everything personally.

    1. ferrina*

      Yep, it’s totally okay! It sounds like you are being kind but uninterested, which you are entitled to do. See also: “Huh, that’s not been my experience with that person.”

      This sounds like a great strategy. I suspect it will pay off in the long term. (though don’t be surprised if they start talking about how rude or unsympathetic you are!)

    2. irene adler*

      It is absolutely okay NOT to encourage this person.
      This protects your mental health. You didn’t sign up to be their counselor.

      And, you are doing your co-workers a favor. Over time, the negative ‘vibes’ from this person, if they are allowed free reign to air negativity, can permeate the entire office and bring down morale. Don’t want that.

    3. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Good for you to recognize that this person is not a good resource to learn how to interact with others in your workplace! I’ve found the adage is true: whoever complains to the new hire about everyone in the office is in fact the problem employee. I almost let someone turn me against my boss within a month of being hired before I realized what was happening, and that was only because another new hire (who was more experienced that I) had the wisdom to push back. Just a simple “hm, that’s not my experience with Marcia” or “I really don’t have a problem with X policy” can make a huge difference. I think your uninterested “sorry to hear that” is a perfect response. Eventually they’ll find you an unsatisfying target for their venting, or as in my case, get themselves fired.

      Good luck!

    5. Actual Vampire*

      Not only is it ok to not encourage them, you should probably discourage them.

      At my first job, I became a listening ear for a coworker who complained about everyone. I didn’t like her, but I didn’t know how to exit the conversation gracefully. In retrospect I think it hurt my ability to build relationships with other coworkers because they saw me as being friends with the bully (and because all my work-social time was being taken up by the complainer).

    6. MadisonB*

      Trust your gut and don’t encourage them. I wish I’d trusted my gut and noticed that a supervisor-turned-coworker was the common denominator in all the negative experiences s/he spoke about, both at my non-toxic company as well as about 6 others s/he’d been at in 10 years. Within nine months, that person turned on me like s/he had turned on everyone else who wasn’t 100% deferent, and it was quite the ordeal. I wish I would have avoided feeding into this person’s apparent need for drama/chaos (look up the “gray rock technique,” if you’re interested), and I very much wish I’d avoided adopting some of the beliefs about the people s/he’d had burned at our company.

  64. Alexa*

    My boss takes the bus to work. One of my coworkers usually drives them to the bus stop after work, and will drive them other places they might need to go during business hours. But this coworker works from home or takes vacation days sometimes and isn’t there. (And my other coworkers often work from home right now too. Me and my boss have to come in every day.)

    I would offer to give my boss rides, but I have a fear of driving to places I’ve never been before (I usually practice a few times early on weekend mornings when there’s no traffic if I have to go somewhere new) and find it hard to concentrate with other people in the car.

    Does it make me look bad that I’m not offering to give my boss rides? Do I need to explain why I’m not offering them rides? I feel guilty about it.

    1. mreasy*

      No, it doesn’t make you look bad. And honesty I think it’s a bit weird that your boss is relying on one of their reports for this! I wouldn’t do it were I in that position of power, it seems like a conflict of interest.

      1. ferrina*

        +1

        It would actually be much worse if you offered and then were a nervous wreck while driving. It would be weird if your boss expected you to offer, but even if your boss has those weird expectations, it’s okay to not do it because Sanity and Quality of Life. (I’m picturing you saying yes, being absolutely miserable, then in 6 months writing Alison asking how to get out of this arrangement and if you should quit your job)

        1. Alexa*

          LOL, yes! I specifically paid attention to anything related to needing to own a car or traveling when I was job searching to avoid having to drive anywhere, so I guess it would turn into something to write into Alison about!

    2. Colette*

      You’re fine. Your boss is an adult who can figure out how to get to/from the bus stop on her own.

    4. CatCat*

      No, you’re totally fine.

      It strikes me as weird that the coworker is driving the boss around so much, frankly. (If it was like sometimes dropping the boss somewhere that’s on the way to where the coworker was going anyway like if the bus stop is on their route home, that doesn’t sound weird, but this sounds like more than that.)

      1. Alexa*

        Just to clarify so that my boss doesn’t sound demanding—I can’t find it on Google maps, but the the bus stop is close by (within walking distance), so even if it’s not on the drive home I’m sure it’s only an extra few minutes. And my boss only gets rides to other company locations or the bank during business hours once in a while. My coworker isn’t driving them on personal errands or everyday or anything.

    5. Brett*

      I would assume this is probably already awkward for your boss and would be even more awkward if your boss has to rely on additional direct reports for transportation or even if you ask if they want help with transportation.

  65. Temporary Temp*

    What is a polite, professional way to refuse a temp assignment whose duties are really unappealing to you?

    Situation: I was hired by Big Hospital Network to be a per diem receptionist in their Llama Health Clinics. On Monday I received an email from the staffing specialist that Big Hospital Network also needed receptionists for Alpaca Health Clinics starting in a few weeks, and asked those interested in also picking up Alpaca Health Clinic shifts to respond to the email with which location listed they wanted to work in. I responded indicating I was interested in Southside Hospital, but after some back and forth with the staffing specialist it came out that the position at Southside Hospital was a 4-hour shift at a call center rather than a 10-hour shift as a receptionist, which was not clear in the original email. I apologized profusely for not fully understanding that the Southside Hospital position was different than the others, and asked to be withdrawn from consideration for that position and instead expressed interest in the receptionist position at Lakeview Hospital. I cited the combination of the short 4-hour shift and my 3-hour commute to that location being logistically unfeasible for me as the reason for my withdrawal.

    Today, the staffing specialist wrote back saying that the Southside Hospital call center position was actually 10 hours, do I want any of the following shifts…but the thing is I don’t want to work at a call enter regardless of the shift length! I think I’d be miserable with that kind of work. I struggle with phone anxiety and can’t imagine thriving with it being my primary duty. I’ve been very happy with the type of work I’m currently doing as a Llama Health Clinic receptionist and really want to continue doing something similar. How do I professionally communicate that call center work isn’t a good fit for me but I’m still interested in Alpaca Health Clinic receptionist work to the staffing specialist? I’m afraid of looking unprofessional and flaky but I also really don’t want to be trapped in a temp job I’ll hate.

    1. Colette*

      “Thank you, but I’d prefer to stick with receptionist positions and am not interested in call center work.”

      1. Spice for this*

        I have done a lot of temp work during the years (admin, front desk, receptionist, call center rep., etc.) and I agree with “Colette”. Best to be up front and professional about it and just explain to the temp agency rep that the call center job is not for you.

  66. Two Chairs, One to Go*

    None of my opportunities panned out. I’m disappointed but mostly exhausted thinking about applying again. I’m not in a hurry to change jobs. I don’t hate my job or work in a toxic environment, it’s just not the same as when I started. Lots of changes, some good, some bad. I’d love to do something else but I’m torn between enjoying down time to rest & relax vs using it to be productive… thoughts?

    1. ferrina*

      Sorry, no thoughts, just sympathy. Especially after the last year, I’m feeling the same pull between resting and trying to do things. Good luck!

    2. pbnj*

      Sorry to hear that. I’m not sure if you’re asking if you should take a break from applying to jobs or asking about work in general. For work in general, I would personally focus on ensuring I get enough rest for health and to not burn out, but also be productive enough to not get in trouble at work and look for opportunities to do things that look good on resumes or have good stories during interviews. If you’re tired of interviewing, I would be more selective right now and only apply to things that look really good and you’re reasonable sure they check all your boxes of things you are looking for (location, benefits, etc.)

  67. Aggretsuko*

    I’m just tired of everything being awful and our office being a complete disaster due to reasons beyond our control. I am tired of the complaints. I am tired of having nothing in my hand but my genitalia when someone says they can’t get a job because we can’t get around the requirements set by other people. I am tired of the fact that we know there is a solution for a good chunk of these problems, but our office will never ever be able to afford that standardized service, so they can’t have it. I am tired of constantly lost mail. I spend four hours a day on lost international mail. I am tired of lecturing people about the extremely strong possibility of their badly needed mail not showing up in their country (and half of them ignoring me and then crying when it’s lost, after I told them it would be lost). I am tired of having to tell them to get around this, they need to pay a large amount of money and then wait EVEN LONGER to get what they need due to mailing issues. I’m so sick of us being a constant trainwreck due to others and there’s nothing we can do about it except eat their rage and blame.

    That is all.

  68. Llama Wrangler*

    I have a candidate who I am going to make an offer to, and I am trying to figure out how to benchmark her salary. The TLDR is that my spouse says I should just give her the maximum budgeted, but I’m leaning towards going slightly lower so that the salary is aligned with comparable positions in the organization, and so that we have room to give her a raise, and.

    Here’s the specific situation:
    -We posted the job at $x-3k, which was what the salary had been when we hired 3 years ago (our job descriptions post the salary)
    -$x is below median income for our high COL city, but above what our competitors pay for the role (they usually pay as low as $x-$8k to $x-$4k)
    -My company’s HR is a little dysfunctional at the moment, so I have not been able to get a totally clear answer on salaries across the company (or even what the budget considerations are), but it seems like similar positions in the company are being paid $x on the low end of the experience range to $x+4k on the high end
    -I have confirmed that we have the budget to pay up to $x+2k ($x+2k is very close to median income for the city)
    -Because of the dysfunction and lack of clarity, when I spoke with candidates in the initial screen, I let them know the range was between $x-3k and $x
    -I am going to hire another position in the next month that is slightly higher level that is set at $x+2k with no flexibility
    -We likely will NOT have money to do raises for either role above the $x+2k amount in the next two years (we will try to do COLA, but even that is iffy given the current financial environment)

    The candidate I’m making the offer to is on the low end of the experience range, so I’d like to offer $x. My questions for input are:
    (1) Is it morally okay to offer the candidate less than the best possible offer ($x+2k) ? I think yes, since it’s aligned with their experience and similar roles in the company; but my spouse says it’s bad politics
    (2) If the candidate asks for more than $x, should I go up to $x+2k, knowing that the other role I’m hiring for will then be being paid the same, with (ideally) more experience?
    (3) If I do go up to $x+2k for this role, should I be transparent with the candidate that it’s the top of the budget and we will likely not be able to do raises unless we get additional funding?

    1. ferrina*

      I’m a little confused. When you say “median income”, are you talking about overall, or in comparable roles?

      I guess my answers would be:
      1. Yes, absolutely. You want to make sure it’s a livable wage and in line with the role/expectations, but you don’t need to pay the money just because you have it. Do be careful of subliminal bias- if this were a guy that you were hiring, would you pay him the same? (Not saying that you are sexist, just saying that our society is. It teaches us to value certain people over others, and you would need to be completely immune to all human influence not to have that affect you in some way)
      2. Why would candidate ask for more? Are their skills worth more, or are they negotiating for the sake of negotiating? Would you be willing to reward the negotiation? Again, watch out for subliminal bias.
      3. Absolutely.

      Another thought- how long do you want her to stay in this role? Are you okay with this role making the same as the slightly higher level role? I’d be very careful about that, especially since you say that the candidate is on the low end of the experience level.

      1. Llama Wrangler*

        Good questions and feedback!
        Median individual income for the city is about the $x+2k amount. My sense is that comparable roles in our sector in the city pay less, and comparable roles with the same equivalent experience in the sector pay median or more.

        For (2) I think the candidate would ask for more either for the sake of negotiating, because it is possible to find roles paying $x+2k or more, or because $x is (slightly) below median income. @ferrina I’m curious about how you’d think about responding to negotiation in different contexts.

        The candidate’s previous role was in a short term, contract position (think a paid, post-college internship). Their references across the board have said they were an all-star in that role, but it was short and entry level.

        I’m desperate to fill this role because until I do, I’m doing that role and my own role – summer is slow so it’s manageable (if tiring), but come September I’m really going to be in trouble if the role isn’t filled. So I’m torn between wanting to entice someone who seems like they’d be a great addition to my team, and the downsides that come with paying them at the high end of the range for the low end of the experience.

      2. Llama Wrangler*

        That first paragraph should read “My sense is that comparable roles in our sector in the city pay less, and comparable roles with the same equivalent experience in OTHER SECTORS pay median or more.

        1. ferrina*

          I’m assuming when you say “median income for the city” you mean “median income for this role in the city”. (If I’m wrong and you are just basing it on the median income in the city, go back and look up what this role/responsibilities tend to pay)

          For negotiating- If their argument is “I can easily find a similar role that pays more,” and they’re right…well, I’d bump their pay if I could. Compensation should be competitive, especially if you really need the role filled. But I’d also offer a competitive rate to start.

          Based on this additional info, I’d want to pay them X+1k. Be prepared to share with them the reason that you are offering that. My thoughts- This is the limits of what your company can pay for this level of experience in this role. In the next few years, as they expand their skills with experience, they will be bumped up in to the higher pay. Even if they try to negotiate, sorry, this is the best that you can do (but can you offer other benefits? PTO, comp time, flexible schedule?)

          I’m really worried about that slightly senior role that you’ll post later. You want a more senior version of the position to pay higher. If you’re paying the same, I’d be ready for Senior to leave the second they find out that they make the same as Junior (I’ve seen this play out multiple times).

          1. ferrina*

            Sorry, amending my answer-
            (I was having trouble reading the algebra)

            I’d offer $x-1k or $x-2k. That gives them room to negotiate (if they have a valid reason to negotiate, not just for the sake of negotiating.) Don’t give them more than $x if $x was the top of your range. I’d try to find extra money for someone that had extra experience/skills, but not for someone more junior.

    2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Yes, no, not applicable.

      Offer something like x-2k and be willing to go up to x.

      x is actually the top, not the bottom, of your range…

      It does start things out on a bad footing if you are hiring a senior level at the same salary.

  69. Readypanda*

    Hi everyone! It’s my birthday today ✨
    I have a question about building trust in a team that’s been burned.

    I started a job about 3 months ago and I like it a lot so far, but it’s very clear to me that the people who have had the role before me turned over pretty fast, and were very unreliable and unreasonable to work with.

    As a result, almost all of the marketing work I need to do is routed through some team members who… Clearly don’t expect much from me.

    The trouble is no matter how chipper I keep the emails, they continue to talk to me like I’m a ticking time bomb, and not a very smart one to boot. It’s becoming a self fulfilling prophecy – when they go non responsive, or off-track explaining things I already know back to me, of course I don’t get much done.

    Have you ever broken through low expectations from a team that’s out of patience thanks to the hires that came before?

    1. ferrina*

      Happy birthday!

      My advice- be consistent and give them time. If they’ve been burned before, it will take longer for them to trust you. Be clear and consistent about performance expectations, and hold them to that. Check in with them to see how their projects are going and if they need resources. Tell them when they do a good job. Be proactive about coming to them with questions and utilizing their expertise. Get to know them as individuals. Be honest and don’t make promises you can’t keep (“I’ll look into that and see what I can do” vs “I’ll get that done for you!”). And just keep being your lovely self :)

    3. WellRed*

      Hmm you think the issue is they’ve been burned before. I read this and think maybe the team is the reason for the high turnover.

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Are you sure the previous people were all unreliable, difficult, etc? The possibility occurred to me that someone has been putting out the word that they are like that, are they hearing similar things about you too?

      1. Readypanda*

        The work was definitely subpar, but I think that the attitude toward subsequent candidates is a big part of the pattern. We have leadership on the team now who I think can help us overcome this, too. Fingers crossed!

    5. Alianora*

      I’ve had good luck straight-up calling a meeting with groups like these and asking if we can discuss how we can all work best together. It takes time and consistent results, but I’ve actually managed to build up trust between my department and others where there wasn’t much before. People who were very difficult and rude have warmed up. (Honestly, I’m still a little wary of them, but I don’t let it show.)

      Also, “chipper emails” aren’t really a great indication of anything. Some of the least reliable people I work with are the most chipper. Still be polite and friendly, but put most of your effort into making sure you do the job right.

  70. Purple Penguin*

    Looking for advice/commentary on US federal government job recruiting when academic qualifications, especially undergrad ones, don’t necessary match later academic qualifications or expertise.

    I applied for a US federal government job that is squarely in my wheelhouse of expertise. The issue that I came across was that the fed automated HR system indicated that I couldn’t apply for the job because I didn’t have an explicit undergrad degree in the field. The thing is that the academic field behind my expertise is a relatively new one that recognizes that llama experts and llama handler experts should work together to address changes to the llama environment (also a new-ish field in itself). Consequently, I’m versed in both llama handlers and llamas at the graduate level but not the undergrad level because the field really wasn’t an option back then. I figured out a work around for the automated application system that was relatively truthful but wonder a) if adherence to a very narrow framework for degree qualifications is something that I should expect for federal jobs and b) if adherence depends on the particular department or team, any advice on navigating this would be so appreciated.

    1. Anonymous Koala*

      In my experience, the fed’s automated HR system is super inflexible and the hiring managers are eminently reasonable. So if you’re genuinely qualified for the role, I would do what you can to get passed the automated HR system without lying, and then be prepared to explain how your experience matches the position in your interview. Also a lot of fed recruiters will tell you that cover letters don’t matter because the hiring managers won’t read them, but if it’s an option I would still submit one because your resume is not a clear cut match for the post.

    2. J.B.*

      The federal system is bananas. My sister did not make it through HR screening for the job she had been filling in for, her boss had to hold off hiring during her appeal. The other thing I’ve heard is with the screening questions, pick the number or answer that matches your experience and add one.

  71. Jewels0110*

    I was rehired by a previous boss in Feb. 2020 in a different role (I left for about 2 years before coming back.) In March, I nearly had a breakdown due to the stress and overwhelm in this new role which sent me on a soul searching journey for the past 5 months and I’ve come to the conclusion to change my careers into a brand new field and to do that I will be taking a career break to focus on this transition to gain the skills and practice I need to do so. So my dilemma is that I will be quitting on my boss and the team for the second time. I plan to give this news on Monday and offer 3 months notice period, but I am feeling extreme guilt, anxiety and just feel really bad for doing this. I am losing sleep over this as I love the team, but this is something I need to do for myself to feel more fulfilled in my work and career. Has anyone been in a similar situation that can share their experience?

    1. TechWorker*

      I’ve not been in a similar situation, but you took this role in Feb 2020 – that’s over a year ago! Yes it might not be ideal but it’s not like you’re wanting to quit a few months after being hired. There is a risk for just about any employee ever that they will choose to move on – employers understand that and you don’t need to feel guilty for doing the best thing for you. Best of luck!

      1. ecnaseener*

        Yes, 18 months is totally respectable! You’re not betraying anyone, and 3 months notice is so generous.

    2. Spice for this*

      I have had a similar situation which was very challenging mentally. For me it was a little easier to process when I can view it as a “just business” type of relationship and put myself and my health first.

    3. PollyQ*

      Do not feel guilty! A job is not a marriage or any other kind of personal relationship. People can & do leave at any time. You gave it your best shot–18 months!–but it just wasn’t the right job for you. Nothing personal, just business.

      And given how much you’re suffering, don’t feel that you need to offer such a long notice period. You’re not doing anything wrong that you need to compensate for. 2 weeks is standard for a reason, and a month is generous.

  72. Sigrid*

    Can I just unload about one of my pet peeves?
    Responding to a request with, “as I’m sure you know, that thing is not possible”.
    It’s always irritated me but I’ve gotten that response several times in the past week and it’s elevated to the level of causing steam to come out my ears. Request: “Could you add X to this prospectus and then send it on to Bob?” Response: “As I’m sure you know, Bob is no longer with the company.” Request: “Would it be possible for you to do Y, or if not, let me know who is responsible for such things?” Response: “As I’m sure you know, our department is not responsible for Y.”
    NO I DO NOT KNOW. IF I KNEW, I WOULDN’T HAVE FLIPPIN’ ASKED YOU. I do not, in fact, make a habit of wasting my or other people’s time!!!!
    It drives me up the wall. Does anyone know why people respond this way? Do they think it polite? Or is it a “per my previous email” way to say “eff off” in a work-appropriate way?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I think it’s a combination of “per my previous email” and a defense against people who *do* make a habit of wasting other people’s time.

      If you’re getting this from multiple people in your organization, there may be some weird cultural thing at play, and people don’t realize how supercilious it comes across – they just learned it 5 years ago from the guy who’s now VP of Snootiness.

      1. Sigrid*

        I’ve been known to “per my previous email” at people, but that’s when there’s been, you know, an actual email to per. I don’t operate on the assumption that everyone who communicates with me knows everything I know without having been told. That’s why I just find the response so baffling and infuriating.

        It’s not what I’d call common in my organization, but it happens occasionally, and I’ve gotten it from people at previous places I’ve worked as well, so I know it’s A Thing rather than My Organization’s Thing. Which is why I was wondering if anyone had insight into why it’s A Thing.

        1. Campfire Raccoon*

          Sometimes the “per my previous email” is necessary.

          But OP’s complaint is legit. I’d treat it with a tilted head and a, “What a weird thing to say. If I knew, I wouldn’t have asked.”

    2. ferrina*

      Okay, that’s just annoying. I’d be so tempted to just send peppy emails back “Oh, I didn’t know! Thank you for telling me! By any chance, do you know who is doing this role now? Have a lovely day!”

      1. Sigrid*

        The “Bob has left the company” thing was what really tipped me over the edge, because Bob had apparently left the company three days before, and I interact with Bob maybe twice a year. Also, I work for a health care organization with well over 100,000 employees. It’s not like we get all-hands emails about staff turnover. So while I’m sure that Bob’s entire department was aware he was leaving for quite some time, there was pretty much absolutely no way I would have known.

        And I certainly wouldn’t have asked you to send it on to Bob if I knew he had left! Seriously, what?? Why would anyone ask that? If I knew he had left, I would have said something like, “Now that Bob is no longer here to take care of X, could you forward this on to whomever has taken over that responsibility”. SERIOUSLY. I know it’s petty, but steam out my ears.

        1. ferrina*

          oh man, I’m picturing you knowing that Bob was leaving, waiting until what you thought was his last day to register this request. Because you are petty and vindictive to Bob like that. Oh, and you are definitely steepling your fingers and cackling to yourself. Because your alter ego is a cartoon villian?

          Whoever thinks that you are aware of every employee exit must really think highly of your omniscience!

          Maybe you can redirect your (rightful) frustration in to some weird humor. “As you know….” “Why Yes, Evil Sigrid knows everything! Mwahahaha!”

    3. Teapot Wrangler*

      I use it for people I’ve told before and also for people where I’m pretty sure that I’ll come over as condescending if I don’t assume some prior knowledge. e.g.
      “As you may be aware, we process llamas before teapots so I’ll add this to our list for next week.”

      1. Sigrid*

        I do feel like “as you may be aware” comes across somewhat differently than “as I’m sure you know”, especially when it’s prefacing additional information. “As I’m sure you know” has a definite “obviously the only reason you sent me this request is to waste my time” vibe to it, which is what drives me up the wall. “As you may be aware” is providing additional context.

        1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          Hm, I can see how “as you may be aware” comes across as way less condescending…but I’ve also been guilty of using “as I’m sure you know” in situations where the other person would be touchy about me thinking they don’t know certain things. Maybe this guy works with a lot of people who jump down his throat if they think he’s telling them something they already know?

    4. Workerbee*

      Oh, the temptation to respond in kind…and then some:

      “As I’m sure you know, I only interact with Bob twice a year and I had not received word until this very moment that he has left your exceedingly gracious team. Perhaps you could look into disseminating the information properly, including who has taken over Bob’s tasks.”

    5. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Then respond accordingly.

      “No, I did not know. Thank you for the information. Would you happen to know who has taken over Bob’s responsibilities? If not, who is the manager for Bob’s former position?”

      Yeah, very unnecessary phrasing on their part.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I like this straight answer. It’s tempting to say back, “As you know, I would have no way of knowing…” but don’t do it. I think you will make more of a point by what OE has here.

      2. Alianora*

        Yup, just be straightforward, don’t let yourself get sucked into their weird mind games and passive-aggressive code words. It’s quite rude of them, but I’ve found it most effective to just take stuff like this at face value and correct their assumptions if needed.

    6. banoffee pie*

      It might be a habit, or a figure of speech. Or they might be afraid that you already know and don’t want to be accused of patronsing you. It does sound quite annoying though!

  73. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

    my Monday- Friday NPO office job is starting to make us work Saturdays and piling more and more work on us. We aren’t allowed to get overtime. We have to shorten our workdays during the week so we don’t go past 40 hours. Well, to put it more accurately, the workload has gotten so insane that some of my coworkers have resorted to clocking out and going back to work. I was written up last year for “unauthorized overtime” when they always refuse to authorize it but insist the work still has to get done.

    Our work has taken on two HUGE projects dealing with Covid (i can’t go into specifics). Upon taking these projects, our president suddenly told us “this is not a job you can only do Monday-Friday. ” Some of my coworkers are sending emails and Teams messages every single day close to midnight and working seven day weeks and are beyond burned out. One of my coworkers just begged his manager to let him keep Sundays to himself so he can have at least one day off.

    I am not willing to work off the clock and I’m not willing to dedicate my entire life to my job. Just 40 hours Monday-Friday is enough to leave me mentally exhausted and is all i am willing to give. I work the occasional Saturday for a special event but that’s only about 4 hours twice a year.

    I’m seeing a massive increase in burnout in my peers (along with leadership scolding us that we’re not doing enough). My coworkers are all amazing and dedicated and it’s worrisome. I sometimes feel guilty and feel like I’m not doing enough but the rational part of me understands that they’re asking too much of us. How would you recommend we go to leadership with this or should we all run for the hills?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I would be blunt. They are asking for two mutually incompatible things and they need to be called out on it, because they are living in a fantasy land where both of those are possible.

      “You say overtime is not allowed and will not be approved. You also say this is not a job you can only do Monday-Friday. Which of those two things takes precedent, because you can’t logically have both at the same time?”

      I would also be putting on my running shoes and making sure that I have a recent map of the hills…

    2. Empress Ki*

      Have you tried to push back as a group ?
      As Alison said a few times, it’s more difficult for management to carry on like that if you are a group rather than just 1 or 2 people individually?

    3. PollyQ*

      Let’s be blunt: by demanding that you all work extra hours but refusing to authorize overtime, this organization is breaking the law. I suggest all your co-workers who’ve worked unpaid time put in wage claims with the state, and that yes, all of you should run for the hills.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I think I’d call the DoL.

      But you don’t have to if you don’t want to. Everything you need to know is here in your post. The only way this place can remain open and doing business is by guilting people to work off the clock. This is what a sinking ship looks like- the reason you have to work off the clock is because they can’t meet payroll if everyone was honest about hours. Meanwhile I am sure that there are people enjoying a 6 figure income.

      Drag in outsiders as opposed to going to leadership. It could be the Department of Labor or it could be external auditors. Here in NYS the Comptroller’s office sends out auditors.
      Or just plain bail your own self out. If others ask tell them you recommend they do the same.

  74. nnn*

    Does anyone know how to change the default emojis in Outlook 365?

    My employer just switched us to Office 365, and now when I type :) it automatically turns it to a smilie that’s smiling and blushing, which is not quite the tone I’m going for in a work email. Is there a way to change it to a different emoji that’s not blushing?

    Not sure if emojis will go through in this comment section, but I’ll give it a try:

    Here’s the one it’s giving me now:

    And I’d like to replace it with or .

    1. nnn*

      Emojis didn’t go through, but if you google “smiling emoji with smiling eyes”, that’s the one it defaults to.

      1. Admin of Sys*

        It’s annoyingly complicated, but yes. In the outlook main window:
        Under the File menu, choose Options (bottom left)
        Select Mail, then click on the Spelling and Autocorrect button
        Click on the Autocorrect Options
        In the ‘Replace text as you type’, enter the emoticon you want to change into the ‘Replace’ field, then click into the With field and hit the windows key and the period key to pull up the emoji selection options.
        Once selected, click the ‘Replace’ button. It’ll verify you want to replace the association. Once you do, it’ll autocorrect to the new emoji.

        You can also just delete the autocorrect entry entirely. (note: I have no idea how to get to the emoji option on a mac, but I assume it’s apple+.)

        1. nnn*

          Awesome, thanks! I love when there’s an actual solution to my weirdly finicky and specific problems!

    2. Workerbee*

      Honestly, my first thought is to train yourself out of using emojis in Outlook, and leave ‘em to texting and Teams and other more informal means of online comms. But this is coming from a place where one of my teammates seems incapable of emailing a directive without adding a smiley to it, which has the effect of saying, “Disregard all that I just said, I didn’t mean it!”

      But I may be oversaturated with the over-saturation of emojis in emails.

    3. Water Everywhere*

      I don’t know how to change the default emoji, but in outlook hitting the windows key + period key will pop open an emoji menu for you to select from.

    4. The Rural Juror*

      I don’t really like the emojis in Outlook, so I usually hit the backspace and turn it back into an emoticon with just symbols :)

      1. kk*

        That’s what I do – all the Office365 emojis look either lobotomized or too suggestive like the OP said!

  75. Kylo Ren*

    What’s the correct order of operations when it comes to telling your employer that you’re pregnant? I plan on starting to spread the word next week, which should give my team tons of time to prepare for my absence (I’m not due until late January). I’m not sure if I should talk to HR first, or to my manager first. Thoughts/experiences?

    For what it’s worth, I’m in the US, and my manager and I have a super friendly relationship. I’ve been bursting to tell them since I found out, but I wanted to get a few more scans in under my belt before sharing beyond my immediate family and close friends. I’m not at all worried that they’ll be put out or retaliate in any way to the news.

    1. TechWorker*

      I would tell your manager first – they can then always help out with the right HR procedure if it’s not well documented or whatever :)

    2. ferrina*

      Set up the meeting with HR, then tell your manager, then talk to HR.

      If you do it in this order, your manager finds out first (they may feel blindsided if they don’t) and you still get to talk to HR (your manager can’t say “you don’t need to talk to HR” if you already have the meeting set). I didn’t actually talk to HR, just my manager, but in hindsight I wish I’d talked to HR to get my ducks in a row (there was some discrimination that ended up coming in to play).

      1. Crylo Ren*

        Thanks – yeah, I definitely don’t want my manager to feel blindsided especially as we’ve historically had a very open relationship. I anticipate one of the first questions they’ll ask me is whether or not I’ve already talked to HR, so I wasn’t sure if I should get that out of the way first – that way I could walk into the meeting with my manager somewhat prepared.

        1. ferrina*

          You’ll likely have several meetings with your manager about this. The first will just be an fyi, then once your manager has had a chance to put some ducks in a row, you’ll actually start planning for coverage. For HR, usually there’s only one or two interactions, which for me were really perfunctory.

          You could even ask your manager if there’s any questions that they would recommend that you ask to HR!

  76. Residency Requirements for a Job*

    Has anyone had any luck getting residency requirements waived? I’m considering applying for a director-level position (government-related) that has a requirement that the candidate move to the locality within one year. I live within 20 miles, but I do not have any desire to move there (partner’s job considerations, kids in school already, etc.). Additionally, the housing situation in my area is insane – I’m not sure I could find a house if I wanted to! Normally I wouldn’t bother applying for a job with this requirement, but the position (high profile) has been vacant for over a year. Should I apply and try to negotiate a waiver on that requirement, should I inquire before I bother to apply – what do you think? I meet all the qualifications for the job and I actually think I have a good shot at getting it, except for LIVING there.

    Thanks for your advice!

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      The residency requirements I have seen most often are legal, not administrative. So, for state or city jobs, I have never seen anyone get them successfully waived. However, I don’t know how they may apply in other fields and I’ll bow to other folks experiences in that regard.

      I’d also add, if you apply, I don’t think you lose anything. I would however ask about the residency early in the process, because if it is a deal breaker I think you’d want to know sooner rather than later and not waste your time or the time of the hiring folks.

    2. Me*

      I suppose you can ask, but know that government is not known for it’s flexibility. If we require it, it’s a requirement. I believe once in my jurisdiction they gave the person a longer window to relocate, but it was still required. There’s no negotiation, just moving on to the next candidate or re-posting the job if necessary.

    3. Brett*

      Normally you can get a direct ruling on the waiver before you even complete the interview process. The waiver is generally about whether or not they are that desperate to hire rather than your individual circumstances and are tied to the role, not the candidate. I know “vacant for over a year” sounds desperate enough, but normally it is more about whether the position is specialized enough to have too few candidates in the locality (so, if there are candidates, but the pay is too low to hire them, no waiver gets granted still).

  77. FD*

    I’m exhausted and finally ready to start my job search. I’ve been working in a tiny business for 5 years and I’ve done, I think, incredible things. But the straw that breaks the camel’s back for me is that I can’t rely on other people to do things I delegate to them.

    This week, I had a very simple thing–“Schedule a llama grooming and then notify the customer when it’s going to be. This needs to be done right away Monday because the llama is really matted and needs immediate attention.” I was supposed to be working on a project on Monday.

    Sent 1) an email on Friday, 2) an email on Monday, 3) a text on Monday, and when I didn’t get a response to my text 4) called and was told it was scheduled and asked them to make sure they called the customer.

    Find out Wednesday that no one called the customer. I’m exhausted, I’m doing the work of at least 2 people, I don’t get benefits besides PTO, and FOUR FLIPPING MESSAGES AND THEY DROPPED THE DAMN BALL which is why I’m so exhausted all the time. I’ve had conversation after conversation with my boss, who’s the worst one about this anyway. I’m just so frustrated.

    The business is probably going to struggle without me, and that hurts. The worst thing is that I *like* my coworkers as people. It’s the first time I’ve really had people I liked at work. They’re just…everyone but me sucks at follow-through.

    Anyway, I’ve been doing a lot of really complicated bookkeeping for them for years, so I’m looking for something in a similar area, probably some sort of staff accountant position.

    1. Been there*

      Leave, just pay attention to red flags in interviews and in three months you will wonder why you stayed as long as you did.

  78. Salary question*

    A situation at work I’m interested in opinions on!

    Our (huge multinational) company had a pay and promotion freeze during the pandemic. We were able to give a small number of (small) pay rises out a few months back but there’s a lot of people who haven’t had a pay rise in 18months. Our industry was impacted a little by the pandemic but performance overall is still strong and the sector is still very much hiring.

    Now – two things are happening:
    1) full pay review cycle for existing employees
    2) the grad starting salary is taking a significant bump to keep up with the market. We hire grads with little experience and train them, so it’s always the case that we’re paying for potential and not experience.

    However… #2 is coming before #1, which means a significant proportion of staff in my office will, for two months only, be earning less than brand new grads. This includes people with 3 years of experience. The people in that situation will not find out what their pay rise will be until near the end of month 1.

    I raised that I think this looks pretty bad and will need to be talked about carefully & the reaction from higher ups was along the lines that caring about this is self absorbed and people in this situation would understand that timelines are set by huge corporation and that there’s obviously no better option. I… think people will feel super resentful over this and denying that there’s anything to be put out by night just make it worse!!

    What are your thoughts? Is my grandboss right that we should ‘steer people away’ from this view as unreasonable…?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I just facepalmed.

      This is a terrible idea. If this is an up-or-out organization like one of the Big 4 or their consulting spinoffs, you should expect to see a lot of people proactively choose ‘out’.

    2. ecnaseener*

      I think you’re right that if anyone expresses resentment you shouldn’t just dismiss them. But hopefully if you’re super clear that the pay bump *is* coming and the timelines are just a little out of sync, they will understand.

      It sounds like you can pretty much guarantee that after the review cycle, every existing employee will be earning more than the new grads?

      1. Salary question*

        Yes, the expectation is absolutely that post the salary review salaries will be back ‘in the right order’. (We don’t have exact dollar amounts for the budget there, so it’s possible that will come at the expense of being able to do other promotions, but making sure the junior people get fair salaries will be budget priority).

    3. Person from the Resume*

      It’s only 2 months.

      Be transparent and as long as you and your company are trustworthy*, it should be fine. *That me means that it will only be two months and their salaries will go up to be more than the new grads. But I don’t expect a mass exodus if there’s only a 2 month gap.

      1. Salary question*

        I don’t expect a mass exodus either – I think where my grandboss and I differ is whether it’s reasonable for people to feel out out by it and thus how sympathetic we are to complaints (my grandboss thinks that being unimpressed with the situation indicates immaturity, I disagree ;))

        1. Person from the Resume*

          I don’t think its reasonable to upset about it. I’m viewing it as a problem that will be corrected in two months. Annual salary is a big number, monthly salary is smaller, difference in monthly salary after the raise (times 2 months) will probably not be huge. It’s not like you’re taking away money from current employees; they will make the same amount they have been since the pandemic started so it should not hurt their budget. For a brief two months, they will make less than the new hire. Not a big deal.

          IMO it would be a big deal if your company wasn’t correcting with a full pay review cycle for existing employees which will bump their salaries up past the new hire. As long as you convey that message, I wouldn’t get resentful and I think anyone who does is unreasonable. IDK, I’d stick to “I hear you are upset but the situation will be corrected in two months/one month/next paycheck.”

    4. Colette*

      I don’t think this is a big deal, assuming that the review ends with the experienced people earning more than the new hires, and it’s communicated clearly.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        This. If it really is only for two months, it seems like most adults would accept it. Is there any chance the change is going to be retroactive? That would do away with any issues, I’d expect.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Yup. I would be most of the way to appeased once you gave me concrete info about what my raise would be and when it would be effective (as opposed to a hand-wavey “we’ll be doing salary reviews and you should get a raise in a couple months”), and 100% of the way to appeased if “when it would be effective” was backdated to the beginning of the two-month review period in question.

          1. TechWorker*

            Absolutely no chance of backdating and the date people will find out their raise is the end of the first month. I have zero control over either of those things (and tbh neither does my grandboss), the policy is set way way up.

            1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

              Then I’d be a little grouchy about it, but as long as y’all didn’t otherwise have a history of screwing me over I’d get over it when you followed through promptly :)

    5. CatCat*

      I think it’s nuts to not acknowledge that it’s a frustrating position to be in as an employee. I also think it would go a long way to be open and transparent about it and not be dismissive that people may feel put out by it. Something like, “While not ideal, the executive office [for reasons] has needed to implement the new grad hire salary bump first. Fortunately, this will only be the situation for two months and by then existing employee salary review processes will be completed and those salaries bumped. I understand if that sounds a little frustrating! The decision is ultimately out of my hands, but please come talk to me if you have concerns or questions about the salary process Huge Company is implementing.”

      Honestly, when my office does a policy that strikes me as off, and my boss has been receptive to hearing my concerns even if it is out of his hands (though he does communicate concerns up the chain as it makes sense for him to do so), that goes a long way to build trust. Being dismissive would do the opposite. Regardless of what happens with the policy.

    6. Stitching Away*

      Your grandboss is an idiot. Not only is he wrong, but no one is stupid enough to believe that kind of bs, and being fed that line is only going to make them stupid. “We’re going to mistreat you, and you better like it!”

      The company is rewarding the loyal employees who stuck with them by paying them less than brand new grads with no experience, and then on top of that, telling them that if they’re upset, they’re being selfish. It’s the company that’s being unreasonable in thinking it’s fine to pay people less than they’re worth. Honestly, encourage everyone to job search.

      How do the new grads have more potential than your current employees?

      1. TechWorker*

        The company absolutely doesn’t think that, it’s just that grads start on date x (fixed for a long time, in their contract) and pay rises are done yearly on date y (recent change but now fixed at a high level). We don’t have the power to tell huge corporation they should move their pay review schedule by 2 months.

        1. Stitching Away*

          The huge corporation and the company are the same. So either they think that or they don’t. An exception was made to freeze wages, but can’t be made to raise them ahead of schedule? Sure, totally they don’t think that.

  79. ecnaseener*

    What do you think is the right balance to strike between openness about mental health + challenging stigma, vs. staying (appearing?) professional?

    For a concrete example: I had a coworker announce that she was taking the next day off because she’d caught herself being rude to someone who uses our services, and this demonstrated that she was in a bad place mental-health-wise and needed to rest.

    I don’t disagree with that decision, but my immediate reaction was “she should’ve just said she wasn’t feeling well.” That’s what I would’ve done, but I can’t figure out whether I really believe that’s the objectively better option vs. just my personal preference.

    For the sake of discussion, say that she shared these details because she believes it’s important to de-stigmatize mental health discussions in the workplace, and she doesn’t care if it makes her appear a little less professional because she’s trying to change the rules for what’s professional. Curious what you all think, is this the way to make progress toward that goal? Or is it better to leave out the details, especially when the precipitating incident is something a lot of people would see as minor?

    (I don’t want this to derail into a sprawling discussion of heavy topics — let’s operate on the shared assumption that mental health should be less stigmatized and it’s okay to take sick time for mental health reasons.)

    1. Disco Janet*

      This depends a lot on the culture of the profession and workplace. Also, how new you are. I’ve only been at my workplace a few years. I would tell a coworker who I’m friendly with, “I’ll be out tomorrow for a mental health day – been feeling on edge today and could use a day off.” Flagging the exact specific situation that made you feel that way feels a little off to me, especially in announcement type of way. Maybe because a client was involved? But I wouldn’t tell my boss I’m taking a mental health day – feels more risky. In general I think the lower you are in the office totem pole, the harder/riskier this is to pull off.

      But I guess my main thought here is that saying you’re taking a mental health day is a way to move towards progress, but I do think sharing specifics – especially if they involve another person – toes the professionalism line.

    2. Me*

      I have a significant life-long mental illness. If I need a sick day due to it, I take a sick day and say I’m sick.

      Which is the exact same thing I do when I am sick for any other reason.

      Saying it’s for mental health isn’t particularly de-stigmatizing. The stigma lies in peoples judgement of said mental illness. And it’s going to take a lot more for people to not think I’m “crazy” than simply saying I need a day off because my x illness is acting up.

      No one wants to know why you are out sick. Normalize not telling people details. However saying something along the lines of I need a mental health day is no different than I’m sick to my stomach or I have a touch of the flu. Unnecessary but shouldn’t be consider weird or an over share.

      There’s also a huge difference in needing a mental health day and having and dealing with a mental illness. The stigma is not the same.

      1. ecnaseener*

        Yeah I’m definitely in the camp personally of ‘normalize not telling people details’…that’s probably *more* helpful than normalizing lots of details. I guess the reason I think this person is trying to fight stigma is maybe she’s trying to set an example for the rest of the team that we should all take care of our mental health etc.

        Re your last point: this particular person has been open in the past about ongoing mental illness, so that’s the context. I don’t think anyone on the team interpreted it as a “basic” mental health day where you just generally need a break.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      “especially when the precipitating incident is something a lot of people would see as minor?”

      Yeah, that’s my concern about this. It somehow trivializes it and makes it grandiose at the same time.

      Compare it to a physical health issue. “I landed funny when I walked down the front stairs this morning and had a momentary twinge in my ankle” vs “The last 3 times on the racquetball court, I felt something in my shoulder but I just played through the pain.” One of those is just random stuff that happens in life, the other is a reason to see a doctor.

      So I’d be more than fine with “I realize I’ve been snapping at people for the last 2 weeks” as a reason to take a day off.

      1. ecnaseener*

        I know…but when you consider that it happened in a “client” interaction, maybe it makes more sense? “I have such a bad cough clients can’t hear me” would probably be a good reason to use sick time (even working remotely) – but is rudeness on that level of “I’m incapable of communicating with people” ?

        1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          That’s a good point.

          But just because I snapped at a client today at 10:30 doesn’t mean I’m going to do it again at 11:15. If I’m in a really foul mood or am feeling overwhelmed, (ie, I’ve known that I’m in a spiral, but the 10:30 incident was the first time that I really had to admit to myself that I had a problem) then there really is a problem. So there’s missing context.

          If your racquetball injury prevents you from reaching the teapots on the top shelf, can you work around it for the day, or do you need to see an orthopedist now? And if you knew you had a bum shoulder, why didn’t you tell your boss when you first walked in, so she could switch you around to only working on the lower shelves until you got the injury taken care of? If you had a cough, you could get moved you over to chat and email support instead of the front desk.

          1. Allypopx*

            But the coworker basically said she knows herself well enough to know that this is a sign she needs a mental health day. I have asthma, if I get a chest cold I really need to take a sick day or two to recoup, even if a colleague could push through it. I do like the idea of normalizing that we let people know their own limits and respect them, especially if the only accommodation needed is using a sick day that she’s already entitled to.

          2. ecnaseener*

            That makes sense. Yeah, I think if this person had just said “I’m in a bad mental state right now and it’s affecting my work” without being so specific about it actually being ONE incident, that might’ve been better.

          3. Me*

            This all sounds like an employer being over involved in an employees “sickness”.

            Not only do I not want to know, it’s not my place to decide if what they say is valid medically. If an employee says they need to take sick time that’s sufficient. I’d rather not know the reason but if they tell me it’s not my place to analyze it or offer alternatives.

    4. Allypopx*

      I would be thrilled if an employee told me this and would be 100% supportive. I think it shows self awareness, good self management, and I want people to be more blatant about these kind of things in our culture.

      That’s my reaction as a manager, where I’m assuming I control the consequences. If a colleague or even a stranger said it…I’d worry. It would depend on my workplace and the person and a bunch 0f other context but if I don’t know the ears it’s falling on I’d worry about how that reflects on the person, if they’re setting themself up for discrimination, a whole bunch of things.

      So I guess it’s context dependent. I think if you reacted that way it probably means you’ve either had a bad experience or think your workplace wouldn’t handle that kind of thing well. But I think it’s about knowing how safe you are in a specific situation.

      1. ecnaseener*

        I agree that it would be different in a private conversation between employee and manager. This was an announcement to the whole team, and yeah I’m having all the worries you name.

        (As for my reaction, I do have a bit of bitch-eating-crackers syndrome with this coworker if I’m honest.)

        1. Allypopx*

          That’s good context! And we’ve all been there. So I guess if you’re trying to analyze your reaction, how would you feel if a totally different coworker did the same thing?

          1. ecnaseener*

            I know this isn’t a helpful answer, but I can’t imagine anyone else on my team doing it. I guess if they did, I’d think it was so out of character for them to over-share like that, they must just be too upset to think straight — which, fair or not, is not how I interpreted it for this person.

    5. Stitching Away*

      I would appreciate a manager modelling this behavior.

      If I saw someone with no power doing it, I’d be worried for their future in the company.

  80. Liz*

    Here’s a fun one for you: Following our conversation yesterday about the bosses in Parks and Recreation and The Office, has anyone had any experiences in their work life that would belong in a sitcom? Any eccentric or oddball coworkers who could have stepped out of a tv show? Any ridiculous incidents that were pure comedy (or darkly humorous)?

    1. Disco Janet*

      I’ve read a LOT of situations in the open thread that we’re this kind of experience (honestly, there’s been a few times it almost felt more like a creative writing exercise or TV show planning than a real life incident, haha.)

      In my retail days (tech store), I had a coworker who would’ve fit in nicely in a workplace comedy. He was retired but came back to work out of boredom. Since he didn’t actually need the money, he cared not one bit about store policies he thought were stupid and was not polite to customers who weren’t polite to him. Like an old Ron Swanson type, minus the obsession with not sharing details about his life.

    2. Spice for this*

      YES!
      When I worked for a government contractor, I had a coworker who (sat in the cube next to mine):
      -listened to rock music all the time (no head phones)
      -farted (loud) and laughed
      -brought salmon for lunch and heated it in the microwave 20 feet from our desks (I like fish yet OMG it stinks)
      -always pretended that he was busy (yet he missed deadlines and our boss had to remind him about deadlines all the time)
      -Bonus – he was an Elvis impersonator on the weekends!

    3. Me*

      Me = years of experience working on website and developing content for website.
      Boss = zero expereince.

      Boss “Do this thing on the website”
      Me “That’s against best practice for xyz. I propose abc.”
      Boss “But I want it”
      Me “I understand. Doing it abc gives the same end results without requiring the user to do the extra steps in the middle.”
      Boss “BUT I WANT IT”
      Me “Respectfully I have close to 20 years experience doing this. I’m asking you to trust me that abc is the best way to achieve what you want.”
      Boss “Well I have years of experience LOOKING at websites”
      Me and everyone else in the room- stares in are you stupid?

      1. Me*

        Also the guy I’ve discussed before that showed up to a professional office job in a t-shirt that said “Straight Outta F*cks”…and when it went over like the weird lead balloon it was tried to tell people he was out of undershirts so he threw it on and forgot to put another shirt over it in the rush out the door.

        This guy also took sensitive documents off site for his mom to proof read.

        Guy also thought me saying we could move the computer to a different side on his U shaped desk if he’d like, to permission to rotate the entire desk in a way that essentially blocked most of the door and took a chunk out of the wall in the process.

        Same guy is now operating a “consulting business” despite having zero experience in the field and being fired from the only position he had in the field after about 8 weeks.

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      In my first post-college job, I worked with plenty of socially clueless people (and that’s coming from an introverted, nerdy, loner, so it’s saying something). But as the years have gone by, I’ve run into many more characters with the same level of off-the-wallness.

      Sometimes my inner David Attenborough gets quite a workout. “Here we see the research physicians in their native habit. Observe how they cluster around the coffee maker in the morning; when the admin assistant has forgotten to order a fresh supply of beans, they make distress calls and flail around the kitchen, no longer sure of the pack hierarchy.”

      1. Spice for this*

        Alton Brown’s Evil Twin-
        Thank you for the laugh today. I can good have lunch now :)

    5. irene adler*

      Oh yeah!
      Had a temp who was forced to find work after his daddy sold the pineapple farm he’d tended/lived on for the past quarter-century or so.

      Clearly not familiar with work norms. And it showed.

      Every 48 hours he forgot everything I’d taught him in the days prior. So a clean slate. Repeatedly. By the fifth go-round of this, I was losing patience. He would insist that I hadn’t taught him whatever skill I was asking him to do. I’d show him the written instruction from days prior. He’d be all surprised -like he’d never seen the document before.

      One time a co-worker and I were discussing sushi. As in, there’s a new sushi restaurant opening up close by. Out of nowhere, temp screams “It’s sashimi!!! Not sushi!!” at the top of his lungs. Then proceeded to have a temper-tantrum over how folks get the terms wrong.

      Okay, point taken. Yer gone.

    6. TechWorker*

      Not sure it rises *quite* to sitcom levels of humour, but at one point I had a manager who clearly didn’t really want to be a manager (he still works where I do, but has moved back to a purely tech role which definitely suits him better!). When he first took over our team, he would do things like set up a meeting and then.. not even try to lead it? Like we’d have 5 of us sat in a room in silence until someone else was like ‘uh… what do we need to talk about?’ It was bizarre.

    7. Dark Macadamia*

      First job ever, retail shop as a teen: some kids came in with a small dog and we kicked them out. I watched the kids walk a couple yards away from the entrance and stuff the dog into one of their jackets. The entire front of the store was a window so they were literally visible to me the whole time. They came back in and I told them they still couldn’t bring the dog in, jacket kid says “what dog?” and dog, with perfect comedic timing, pops its head out of the jacket and looks at me.

    8. Brett*

      I worked with many potential sitcom characters when I was in emergency management, especially from police and fire. The best one though was a highly talented, intelligent, well-liked fire chief.
      He was also 6′ 300+ lbs and carried his weight like a beach ball. He literally ate buffets. Like we would lay out all the food for an incident deployment and he would come eat last because he would eat everything that was left. He broke an unbelievable number of chairs, and considered himself to be a “chair tester”. We ended up ordering a chair just for him even though he was only in our building a couple of weeks a year.
      But… he was also a black belt in taekwondo as well as high level belts in a bunch of other martial arts. Trying to get new people to believe that he had lightning speed and cat-like agility was a source of amusement for veterans of the operations center. We were having one of these discussions one day in a room with 8′ ceilings when the fire chief himself came striding in.
      Newbie: “Are you really a black belt?”
      Chief: ‘Well, yes, I am.’
      Newbie: “Oh really? Show me how high you can kick.”
      And the fire chief proceeds to jump straight into the air… and underestimate the low ceiling and put his foot through a recessed light above his head.
      Crusty veteran: “Remember, he could put it through you instead of that ceiling. And that’s a big big man behind that foot”
      It was both hilarious and terrifying at the same time.

      1. James*

        My incident wasn’t nearly on the same scale as yours, but your story reminded me of an event at a jobsite. I did European sword fighting, and one of my coworkers was a blackbelt in a number of martial arts. We got to discussing the differences–stances, how you throw blows, blocks, that sort of thing. We sort of naturally fell into our stances, and twitched to indicate how each move would go. Then we noticed that everyone else had formed a ring around us. We realized that they thought we were about to go at each other.

    10. GoryDetails*

      Oh, the memories! This one’s not too extreme, but did serve as a good lesson to me in coping with reluctant-to-change co-workers: in my first job (computer operator and programmer in a very small community-college computer center), the school’s head of accounting was an almost eerily stereotypical Woman Of Indeterminate Age With Cats-eye Glasses and Heavily-permed Blonde Hair In A Bun, so much so that if she’d walked on to the set of “Friends” or some such, everyone would refuse to believe she was real and think she came from central casting. She always seemed very grumpy when I had to deal with her – usually when I dropped off the latest budget reports – and for a while I found her quite intimidating. But one day she mentioned that the reports were in an inconvenient order, and that my boss, head of the (three-person including him, so not exactly a Tsar of IT) computer center, had told her that the reports came out that way because “that’s how the computer has to do it”. (My boss had ’70s hair and leisure suits and was quite the stereotype himself, gladhanding everyone while doing very little work; slot him in to the cast of “The Office”, or possibly the sleazy sales-guy on “WKRP in Cincinnati”. I was new to the working world and didn’t recognize this right away.)

      The computer was an IBM System 3, not HAL, and happily printed the reports in the order the cards were fed in. I – oblivious to whatever power-play was going on with my boss and the accountant – cheerfully sorted the cards by account number and ran the reports and made a friend for life of the head of accounting, whose attitude towards the computer center improved considerably. My boss, on the other hand, left soon after, possibly because the just-out-of-school newbie had shown him up at his job…

  81. Grieving*

    I am working on a freelance project with two other freelancers; we are doing this work on top of our normal jobs. We have all known each other for at least 10 years, so I am pretty familiar with their personal situations.

    “Christine” is a single mother of two with tenuous childcare, but she is dedicated and makes every effort to get her part done on time. “Bob” is a single man with no children and no other family responsibilities. He gets his work done as well, but has a tendency to complain about how much time the project is taking and how it is cutting into his personal life, especially his ‘screen free time’.

    I am sympathetic to how screens are draining, but this week I found out I had my second miscarriage in six months. I am grieving, stressed, and struggling with very bad insomnia. I shared with Bob and Christine that I was struggling with health issues, but did not feel comfortable offering specifics.

    Bob has continued to complain about his screen time, and the complaints have just really been rubbing me the wrong way this week, given that I haven’t really even had the time to process my grief because of all the time I’ve been spending on work, especially our shared projects.

    I don’t even really know what I’m asking, I just…don’t want to hear complaints about how this is impacting his ability to relax, while I’m really struggling (and while I know Christine is constantly struggling as a single mom). Is there a way to gently shut down these comments? I know they are not meant maliciously.

    1. Dasein9*

      I’m so sorry.
      It sounds like you need a break so you can deal with your grieving. You don’t necessarily need to tell your colleagues what is going on, but you probably do need to inform them that you need this time and it won’t wait.

      1. MailGal96*

        +1.

        I would be equally annoyed by your coworker’s behavior. Everyone would like more “screen free time.” Yet, I think your wellbeing takes priority at this point. Give yourself time to grieve and address the issue when you return.

        My sympathies for your loss.

    2. ecnaseener*

      Oof, I don’t know if there is a way without sharing what’s going on with you. I can’t think of a way to do it that doesn’t come off as “some of us have REAL problems, Bob” – which is going to sound bad if he doesn’t have the context that you really are going through something awful.

    3. Colette*

      “Bob, you’ve mentioned that before and it’s becoming draining for me. Can you cut out the complaining about this work cutting into your ‘screen free time'”?

    4. Disco Janet*

      I don’t think there is. I’m very sorry for your loss. But just because Bob’s complaints feel trivial compared to yours and Christine’s doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a right to express them. If his complaints are much more frequent than others, I think you could say, “Bob, I’m sorry, but I’m having a tough week – I’m not in a good mental space for listening to complaints right now.”

      Another strategy I’ve found to be helpful around regular complainers is saying BEFORE they complain something like, “Okay, this week has sucked but I’m trying really hard to not get totally dragged down by negativity. Going to focus on the positive.” (I am NOT saying you don’t have a reason to be negative – just that a comment like this can be a good way of nipping complaints in the bud or getting constant complainers to say something positive for once.)

      But if he isn’t complaining more than others, you’re just annoyed that his complaints feel less serious than yours…then no, I don’t think you can or should say anything. What you are going through suck and I’m sorry. It’s tough when it feels like your world has temporarily stopped, but everything and everyone else just keeps on going.

    5. WellRed*

      I know you don’t want to but honestly replying to his next complaint with, “I just suffered a miscarriage” would probably shut him up. Maybe a “ yes, Bob, we’re all busy.”

      1. WellRed*

        Oh and I agree with others that if you can take some time off to grieve. And make a note not to work with this guy again.

    6. Grieving*

      Thank you everyone. These comments helped me realize that the problem is less Bob, though his comments are annoying, and more my fragile mental state.

      I am planning to take some time off, but was not able to schedule it immediately due to some impending deadlines. I am thinking about what I will need to be firm and clear with them about my need to not be contacted during this time. Bob has a history of not respecting these kinds of boundaries, so it is possible I will need to discuss the miscarriage in order to convey the seriousness of why I am taking this time off.

      1. Blackcat*

        “I will need to discuss the miscarriage in order to convey the seriousness of why I am taking this time off.”
        I would not do that with someone who does not respect boundaries. I would state it’s time off to deal with health issues and that you’ll be completely unavailable. Then ignore any communication (so long as you’re in a role where this won’t cause a massive disaster).

    7. Rusty Shackelford*

      “Bob, I know you’re frustrated, but I’m going through some issues of my own right now that make it hard for me to listen to. Do you think we could put the complaining on hold for now?”

    8. Dark Macadamia*

      “Well, Bob, listening to you cuts into my complaint-free time so…”

      Honestly this is so obnoxious. He’s literally complaining that his work cuts into his leisure time. Like… yes??? This is how employment works?

      This reminds me of the person from the other day who was constantly talking about the weekend/waiting for 5pm as small talk. It would be weird and irritating even if all of your life situations were identical, and it’s fine to point it out/ask that he say it less without your miscarriage or Christine’s childcare being relevant at all. It’s not a huge problem but it IS unprofessional and annoying.

      I’m very sorry for your loss.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        That’s what I think too.

        Is there a way to say, “Bob if you want screen-free time, stop accepting the freelance work”? Because he is not complaining about a rough week, he’s complaining about a side gig he sought out takes up time. It’s so bizarre to me. But I don’t know how you 3 freelancers are organized or hired.

  82. Me--Blargh!*

    This is sort of a rhetorical question, but whyyyyyyy can you be completely professional and articulate in a cover letter or when you write answers to common interview questions and then, in a phone screen, or even worse, A VIDEO SCREEN, you sound like a babbling idiot?

    I almost bailed on a job I’m sort of overqualified for (new industry, though) because they asked for a HireVue screening, but I gritted my teeth and went through with it. Of COURSE, they didn’t ask ANY of the questions on Glassdoor or that I’d rehearsed. I can talk on Zoom just fine but when you point a camera at me and put a timer on it, I turn into Cindy Brady on the quiz show (https://youtu.be/9swxevX57Gs).

    I did make sure to mention in the additional information option why I was applying to an out-of-state job, but I feel like that was the only place I exhibited evidence of any brain cells. I’m surprised they contacted me at all—I really don’t expect I’ll be moved to the next round after that awkward mess, lmaooo.

    Are video screens even worth it? I think not. No more of that, I say!

    1. Cute Li'l UFO*

      Good lord, I am not a fan. At ALL. I’ve only been requested to answer some questions in my video (uploaded to Youtube or Vimeo) but it just felt… odd. My computer also sits in a room where I painted the walls absolutely blood red with lots of art hung up everywhere and it’s a horrible background. I have to get up and move it to a better spot to even get a better background. No, I’m not buying a moveable one. And the time limit too.

      I tend to push any job requiring a “video cover letter” or component like it a little further down on my “must apply” hierarchy.

    2. Mossi*

      I’m curious how you are overqualified for an industry you don’t have any experience in. That sounds like an unusual situation.

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        Not the industry, just the job; it’s an entry-level admin job. I was fine with it because it would be a good way to learn about the industry.

    3. bluephone*

      Even if COVID were fully cured tomorrow, I don’t think video screens/video interviews are going away anytime soon. The pre-recorded ones, like HireVue, can be a pain to deal with but in the grand scheme of “crap one has to go through to apply for a job these days,” I think it still ranks less than like, putting in hours of unpaid work (far beyond a normal skills assessment) or even filling out a 20-page employment application that wants you to remember every job you’ve had since you were 16 (and you’re closer to 50 than 40).

      1. Middle School Teacher*

        Oh, definitely. I’m in an all-restrictions-lifted area, my school is hiring, and we’re still doing all our interviews over zoom. It’ll be a thing for a while.

      2. consuela schlepkiss*

        Yeah, that seems to be the case, and it does seem more pleasant to me than the unpaid labor of some application processes. I assume most pre-recorded videos end up being some level of “meh” in terms of production quality, but if you can put together a succinct and well-thought-out response to a prompt, that’s the more important thing.

        The thing that concerns me in this case is that to whatever extent the Great Resignation is a thing (in my world it is incredibly not), the competition for positions is going to be so hot. People who frankly have more recent skillsets and who are actually qualified who will just sit down and do the videos have a huge competitive advantage. Behaving in a technophobic fashion is a bad idea in this market.

        1. Me--Blargh!*

          Hm, I am not a technophobe. Not at all.

          Seems like I don’t make myself clear when I talk about this situation, so I’ll just wait until I have an update.

      3. Me--Blargh!*

        Yeah, fifteen uncomfortable minutes is better than spending six hours on a test assignment.
        It’s funny—I’m fine on Zoom when I’m just talking to someone, but when I have to record myself, I get very nervous. I think it might actually be the timer that’s causing it.

    4. RagingADHD*

      With the combination of Delta variant and your specific circumstances, I really think it would be unwise to limit your application pool based on arbitrary criteria like refusing to do a video. It is going to become more and more prevalent, not less.

      Presenting well on camera is a skill. So is responding well to questions that you haven’t specifically rehearsed. You did poorly (or believe you did poorly) because you haven’t mastered these skills. You can learn them. You just need practice.

      Most likely, your answers were fine and your presentation was similar to most other candidates. Hiring managers aren’t casting a TV show, they are looking for regular people who can do the work.

      1. Flower necklace*

        Completely agree about being able to answer questions extemporaneously.

        I gave a presentation with my boss recently where she talked about the interviewing process and how she’s really selective about who she hires. But, from what I remember of my own interview, it went badly. I answered a question in a way they weren’t quite expecting, so they came back with, “Well, actually we meant . . .” and I had to quickly recover and pivot. In the moment, it felt awkward and clumsy. But I must have done a good job because they hired me!

        1. Me--Blargh!*

          Yay!
          I’m glad I remembered to address being out-of-state, at least. I feel like they’d definitely address that if we end up talking further.

  83. Knope Knope Knope*

    Ok, this is a kind of urgent question. I was approached by a recruiter about a great job. Though I am (very!) happy in my current role, the opportunity was too good not to learn more. It’s about a 25% increase in base salary, plus bonus and stock options. I did a phone screen with the recruiter and a first-round with the hiring manager, all by video call. Now they are asking for my availability in 2 weeks, and the recruiter keeps pressing to see if I have any other offers or timeline constraints. The thing is, I am due to give birth 3 days after the interview window they just quoted me. I am not stranger to hiring, I know this will probably get pushed back to the week I give birth. Normally I would not disclose this early in the interview process to avoid discrimination–though if this was the old days where interviews happened in person there would be no hiding it–but what do I do now? Risk canceling last minute because I am in labor? Disclose now? Help!

    1. Colette*

      I’d say tell them now. Yeah, that’s not ideal, but I don’t see a good option here – you can’t claim you’re planning to have a medical issue in a couple of weeks, and babies have their own schedule that mean you can’t really commit to a specific day.

      1. ecnaseener*

        Well, you could say you’re going to have a medical procedure that week. Or you could just say you can’t be available that week.

        1. Colette*

          You could – but then if the baby is early or there are complications or something, it’s tricker to navigate.

          1. Knope Knope Knope*

            Yeah and they keep asking about my timeline specifically, so it feels like a lie by omission. And I’ll be on paid leave from my company which would be a consideration. And realistically, the first week-4weeks after giving birth I probably will not be in any condition for a long interview with multiple people.

            1. Colette*

              Yeah, I’m inclined to say you should tell them now. You might lose out on the job because of it (for valid reasons or for discriminatory reasons) but you’ll be less likely to put yourself in a situation where you feel like you need to cut short your leave or deal with an interview at a time where you should be concentrating on your health and the health of your baby.

              1. Knope Knope Knope*

                Yeah. Though on the flipside, this would mean we could cover the cost of childcare without using our savings which is currently not an option for us.

                1. Colette*

                  I think there’s a decent chance that the sketchiness of when you’re available will hurt you more than telling the truth. Not 100%, of course, but above 50%.

    2. Me*

      Ooooo toughie. Can you approach it as you have a medical procedure upcoming that may end up getting scheduled at the last minute requiring you to last minute cancel/reschedule?

      It’s not untrue and they’re likely to assume it’s some sort of surgery.

        1. Me*

          Yes they will find out. After the fact.

          The main point is to not disclose until you have an offer in hand.

    3. Dasein9*

      Can you say, “I have a medical procedure scheduled for the week of x?” I know babies don’t always come on schedule, but that way you could always mentioned that it’s “been pushed back,” or whatever’s needed.

      1. Knope Knope Knope*

        I could, though I don’t know what postpartum would bring, and I will be on paid maternity leave from my company.

  84. Alpaca Clinician*

    Academia-related question:

    I recently switched from a contract faculty position to a tenure-track position. During contract negotiations, I was informed that I would have to purchase any technology I needed using my faculty start-up funds, including an office computer. I currently have a work computer that was purchased using research money from my PhD and is still functional, but it’s about 5 years old and is probably going to need to be replaced soon-ish.

    Money isn’t an issue (they gave me a very generous start-up fund) – I’m just feeling weird about having my employer tell me I need to purchase essential work equipment, needed for both student teaching and research, with “my” money. I guess the university would say they are indirectly purchasing the computer via the funds they’ve made available to me, but this feels different to me for some reason. Is this a normal thing in academia?

    1. After 33 years ...*

      Congratulations!
      Yes, it’s common with us. Start-up funds are yours to spend professionally, as you see fit, but they’re not income (not taxable). They indicate that the university trusts you to know what will work best for you. We’d give new profs the basics in hardware and software, while acknowledging that different people have different needs.
      If it’s something that will be used by more people than you (e.g. for teaching across multiple sections; a site license), you might approach your Head to purchase that, with the understanding that it’s a general department resource.

    2. AFac*

      Yes, very normal in my experience. In some cases, for non-TT positions, a computer will be provided for teaching and administration, but most TT research scientists are asked to purchase their own out of startup.

      On one hand, paying for it out of ‘your’ money means you can get exactly what you need for your work (memory, peripherals, size), and not whatever setup happens to be functional and cheap. On the other, it does feel weird to take it out of that pool of startup money. But startup isn’t really ‘your’ money; if you left the university tomorrow, the university would likely keep any equipment you bought with that money, or make you purchase it from them to take to your new job.

    3. Paige*

      Start-up funds aren’t really “your” money. They’re money the university has budgeted for you to get started with what you need. Think of them more as a budget allocation rather than income (because like someone else said, it’s usually not actually income). You have X amount of money to spend as you wish to get what you need to do your work for them, and they trust you to know how to use that money to get what you need, including technology. It’s probably very generous *because* they’re expecting you to get whatever tech you need.

    6. Nesprin*

      That’s fantastic- congrats! Academia has weird AF rules about computers largely because the NIH and other granting agencies have feelings about computers/office equipment etc that should be in “overhead”. You should talk more thoroughly to your dean+ staff- there’s usually a secret “computer” account floating around that no one knows how to access.

    7. Distractinator*

      I get where you’re coming from, but it does make sense to pull it from startup funds. The cost of a computer can vary wildly depending on what you need it to do, so “essential work equipment, needed for both student teaching and research” could be basically a chromebook for some humanities not-into-tech person, or could be a $9k multi-core GPU-processing la-di-da monstrosity in another department. Presumably they take that into account when deciding how much start up funds to allocate different new hires. And I can 100% see it leading to feuds if department X submits crazy proposals trying to get their fair share because they think department Y is plundering the shared computer budget

    8. Dr. Doll*

      Congratulations & good luck!

      We have central budget to give our TT faculty a basic laptop, docking station, & monitor, and if they want anything fancier their college has to pony up *or* they can purchase it from startup funds.

      Startup funds can be very weird depending on where you are – I’ve even heard of startup funds being used for moving expenses or to hire immigration attorneys, or to do special new faculty professional development programs. At least where I am, spending money is ridiculously slow and difficult, we tell our new TT faculty to start the process asap.

    9. AcademiaNut*

      Entirely normal. That’s part of what a start-up grant is for. In my field, it’s standard for faculty to not only buy their own computers and related equipment (back-up disks, extra monitors) from grant money, but also to equip their students or postdocs with the same.

  85. KeinName*

    A few weeks ago I‘ve asked here about communicating to my boss that I want to keep my workweek of 35 hours when I start my new role within our department. I am happy to say that she agreed, and I also asked for a raise, which I am really proud of! I work in the public sector and it has always been suggested that there is no way to negotiate. Turns out this info is wrong (also turns out my male colleague knew this all along, did not tell me and it also getting paid quite a bit more). So I am very pleased with myself to have made inquiries among the fellow women and they all supported me with advice.
    The contract for my new role is not yet issued but once it is through it will be my first permanent position, I get to build a new set of services for a new target group, and have decent pay and very good work-life balance. Yeah!!! Do you want to share some successes?

    1. Oh, Yes, Anonymous!*

      Going anonymous for this one, since I have coworkers who read this blog. Someone with power told the guy who’s been taking advantage of me to knock it off and I got to be present for the conversation.
      The advantage-taker sputtered in outrage.

  86. No Tribble At All*

    Sending thank-you notes to previous coworkers?

    About six months ago I quit my job of 5 years and started a new one. As I couldn’t see anyone in person, I asked for people’s mailing addresses to send thankyou/goodbye cards. Well, then I had to move, I was busy with starting a new job, and I… haven’t sent anyone anything. Is it too late? Would it be weird to send “thanks for being a mentor when I was new” now? Should I acknowledge the delay?

  87. Seven If You Count Bad John*

    Resume help! I’m applying for an internal transfer to a role that I did in the past at a different company many years ago. That experience was brief, memorable, and mostly enjoyable, and I’ve been wanting to get back into that area for many years. Sadly, due to it being the mid-2000s, when I lost that job, I had to take whatever I could get, and as a result, I’ve got a weird gap of several years of jobs that don’t look like this job. My current resume goes back ten years, but the directly relevant experience was 17 years ago. How can I highlight this on my resume? A normal reverse-chron puts this job at the bottom of Page 2.

    Of course I’m also submitting a cover letter that addresses the role and other applicable experience, plus I’m known to the hiring manager. I just don’t want to submit a messy, long resume just to have this on there, but I also feel like talking about a job in my cover letter that isn’t reflected in the resume is also not great?

    1. Colette*

      You can separate your experience into “Relevant experience” and “Other experience” so that the job you want to highlight is at the top.

  88. Im Wearing Clown Clothes*

    Shortly after the pandemic hit the US, I lost my job. With my new found free time, I decided to make some healthy changes that were long overdue. I started seeing a therapist and taking medication for my mental health issues. I also started eating healthier and exercising multiple times a week. In the process I’ve lost about 40 pounds (so far). I haven’t felt this good in years! I also found a great new job. The problem I’m facing now is that none of my clothes fit. They aren’t just a little loose, they are comedically (and unprofessionally) huge. The majority of my new work has, thus far, been done from home. It’s much easier to hide my parachute pants in a zoom meeting. But my company’s return to office plan is beginning to unfold. Belts and tucking in my shirts only gets me so far.

    I intend to lose 30-40 more pounds. I burned through quite a bit of my savings during my unemployment. I definitely can’t afford to buy a new business casual wardrobe every 2-3 months. On top of that I’m honestly having trouble navigating/accepting my new size. I still very much picture myself as Plus sized. Does anyone have any suggestions how to navigate this? Or suggestions on what to wear and how to find it cheap?

    1. balanceofthemis*

      Second hand clothing stores. Don’t pass up Goodwill because you think they won’t have anything, a lot of my work clothes came from Goodwill after I lost a bunch of weight. And you can’t beat $5 slacks when you know you’ll have to replace them again soon.

      Once you hit your ideal weight, splurge on a couple really good quality pieces.

    2. Dobermom*

      If you’re female-presenting, some neutral shift dresses might get you through this phase. Buy for the size you are now, and you can always make them look a little neater with a belt as you drop more weight.

      Congrats on taking the time for your health!

    3. Monty & Millie's Mom*

      I cannot advocate for thrift stores enough! I get many of my clothes from there, and have for most of my adult life! It’s not as large a cost, and really, you just need to get some basics to carry you through. I’d start there.

      Good for you for making those health changes, too!!

    4. Teapot Repair Technician*

      This advice will depend on your gender and how casual your office is. I’m male and work in an office that requires a collared shirt, but no one is expected to be particularly fashionable.

      My work wardrobe consists of 3 polo shirts and one pair of black chinos, all of which cost $50 at Target. If anyone’s noticed I wear the same trousers every day and the same shirt every few days, no one has said anything.

    5. Fiona*

      Echoing Doberman’s comment above. I have a simple black long sleeveless dress. It can be paired with a cardigan or a nice jacket or nothing (if your office is more casual). You can dress it up with necklace and belt, etc and if you change these little things (add a simple light scarf, etc), you could get away with wearing it 2-3 times a week and I doubt anyone will notice.

    6. Mental Lentil*

      Congratulations on all the positive changes you’ve made in your life!

      Alison has posted on this a few times, and folks have chimed in in the comments as well. Here are some links:

      https://www.askamanager.org/2019/02/this-is-how-to-assemble-a-professional-wardrobe-without-spending-a-ton.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2018/07/how-can-i-dress-professionally-in-horrible-summer-heat.html

      https://www.askamanager.org/2019/08/how-do-i-put-together-a-business-casual-wardrobe.html

      Maybe Alison will have some others she can add. This is just what a quick search revealed to me.

    7. Pocket Mouse*

      Is there a Buy Nothing group near you? If so, you can probably post your current size and photos of your existing clothing (if they’re the style you’re looking to wear going forward) and folks may have just what you need.

    8. beach read*

      Mix and match definitely. Buy classics that can go season to season. See if you can have a few of your existing outfits altered to fit. Department stores like JC Penny and Boscovs often carry a great range of sizes as well as seasonal sales. In my experience both usually have decent work wear options. Normally I would never encourage going in to debt but a small credit line to purchase clothes for work should be a nominal monthly payment. Once back on your feet you can always pay back if there is still a balance. Good for you for kicking A. during a world wide pandemic.

    9. AcademiaNut*

      Thrift stores, fairly basic designs, and doing laundry more regularly could help. Also Ross/Winners, for new but discount stuff.

      For women’s clothing and pants, you could look at clothing that’s relatively easy to take in – so, say, an elastic waist with drawstring, where you could adjust the waist, and have the style go from more form fitting to more flowing over a few months. Tunic style tops can still look reasonably polished with moderate weight loss, and would cover the waistband of the pants.

      You could also buy really cheap clothing – hit up Walmart or fast fashion chains, and go for fairly simple basics (khakis and polo shirt for men, for example), as you don’t need the clothing to last a long time.

    10. OxfordBlue*

      The exact same dilemma was an issue for me a couple of years ago and here’s what I did at about the same stage that you are at now.
      First I sorted through all my clothes and divided them into categories by size which were broadly “way too big and will never wear again”, “fit well now” and “will hopefully fit well at sometime in the future”. Then I sold or donated all the clothes in the first category.
      The next thing I did was to sort out three full outfits from the clothes in the second category that were suitable for the current weather and that made me look good. Everything else went back into the wardrobe and those three outfits were ironed and hung up on the door of my room to be chosen from each morning. After a fortnight had gone by I repeated the exercise and each time sorted myself out three outfits that fitted and flattered me. This made dressing easy for that fortnight and then was fun at the end as I tried on the things which had been tight last time but now fitted beautifully or were even too big.
      Once I reached my target weight I then got rid of everything that didn’t fit whether it was too small or too large and concentrated on having outfits that suited me for all weathers and using charity shops and ebay to purchase second hand to fill in any gaps. Because I owned a lot of clothes that hadn’t had much wear especially in larger sizes I managed to sell quite a lot of them on ebay so I do suggest you investigate selling yours. As I began looking in charity shops and on ebay for new items for myself I really noticed how much more choice there is for smaller sizes and that there was so much second hand clothing available in my new size that I really was spoilt for choice and quality. Once I got to a UK size 10 I could find any label/style/colour/material I wanted and it was just a matter of whether I wanted to pay £1.99, £5.99 or £15.99 for nylon, cotton or cashmere.
      As you can tell from the above I tried to do this in both a green and thrifty manner and I also prioritised my overall appearance because clothing for larger sizes in the UK generally does not flatter and I was tired of looking like a walking tent. I’ve come to enjoy dressing when I didn’t before and hope that you will too.

    11. NoLongerYoung*

      I had a similar problem after WLS. I bought a pair of jeans (back then there was casual Friday) and a pair of black pants, and a black skirt… and alternated. (skirts can be taken in pretty easily – safety pins carefully with a tunic top over.). If I found a good fitting pair, I’d sometimes buy a second pair on eBay, the next size down. Same with at least one high quality white, one black, one gray top (tunic for me).

      a sheath dress is also a good option, in a jersey knit. I found a great seller on eBay who had very very high quality clothes, and listed things by measurements (20″ across, flat, at the widest point of the bust, for example). This let me buy to fit my actual measurements and not a perceived size.

      Belts, great statement jewelry, and scarves/bandanas. I could usually get belt-loop pants to last longer (up to going 2 sizes down) by wearing a belt with jeans to keep them up.

      Raglan sleeves or unconstructed cardigans. (most camis have a lot of stretch, so you can wear them up and down as long as they don’t gap for cleavage or pull for wrinkles.

      I stayed away from button downs or any fitted shirt. (although you can wear them open over a tank/cami to extend them.

      I found high quality tops and shells/shirts – again, consignment, high end thrift stores or eBay. These have a little heavier weight than the Target t-shirts, as I needed to look super professional (at the time).

      (if you have the ability to get safely into a Macy’s / major department store, or shop their website, some of the new stuff is cheaper than some of the high end thrift stuff).

      Around here, a lot of folks have been organizing closets, so I have also found a lot recently in the thrift stores, some new with tags. We have a “goodwill boutique” area, for example.

      Your (soft fabric/ flexible dressmaker) tape measure is your friend if you don’t recognize/ see your side. Lean into the math… around + 2-4″ of ease (depending upon how constructed the fabric is). Don’t listen to the your brain telling you, that you can’t be a 12, for example. Vanity sizing is real in the high end stuff – I run 2 sizes “smaller” in them, and I’m an XL at forever 21. (and only there).

      And, don’t worry about buying cheap, either (atlhough I tend not to now as I am trying to not do “fast fashion” and contribute to landfills – and they do wear out faster). In your case, (and mine previously), I was in and out of the size so fast that I just donated – they were spot free and in great shape. At that time, did most of my fun “colors” at Target, off the sale rack or per their ad. It’s a great way to add a little fun to the standard black and white I had.

      Hope I’m not too late with this advice!

  89. Cranky Chemist*

    Why is it so hard to get candidates for a mid-level chemist position??? It’s been 2 months since the job posting was put up, and we’ve interviewed exactly ONE person. And I referred her… Everyone else is cut at the phone screen because they are overqualified and ask for a ridiculous amount of money. And my company pays fairly decently, at least in line with the market. The candidate is fine, but my bosses want to interview a couple more people, if we can find anyone to interview. I just want to hurry up and hire someone so we can get rid of this temp!

    1. calonkat*

      You might check the job posting. Is it trying to sound more important than it is? It’s weird that only people who are overqualified are applying. If possible put the salary range in the ad (but I realize that you may not have the ability to get that added).

      1. Annony*

        That’s what I was thinking. Look at what the requirements are. You may inadvertently be making the position sound more senior than it is. Maybe see if you can decrease the amount of experience or degrees that are being listed as required.

      2. Cranky Chemist*

        I’m not the one making the decisions about the ad unfortunately, but it was changed from a senior chemist position to a regular chemist position after getting so many overqualified applications. I do think the job ad might be part of it, the company likes to put “bachelor’s required, master’s preferred”, when a master’s is fine but not necessary at all, which is probably why people with PhDs keep applying. I might talk to my manager to see if that can be changed.

    2. Anonymous Koala*

      Chemists are really in demand right now (I say this as a chemist-adjacent candidate). Can you hire a new grad for less $$ and train them a bit? (and adjust the posting accordingly) Also, if your org is e-verified and/or sponsors H1Bs make sure you put that in the hiring ad; some people will self select out if they think immigration requirements will disqualify them.

    3. Nesprin*

      Hmmm this sounds like a posting or salary or needs based problem more than a lack of candidates- if all your candidates are overqualified and ask for more $ than you are willing to offer, you’re probably not looking for a midlevel chemist. I’d think you’d want to consider bringing on recent grads or screening a wider range of temp-to-hire type people if you’re really desperate.

  90. TechWorker*

    Another work clothes question…
    My office skews pretty casual. Some senior management wear shirts and suit trousers, some wear jeans and t-shirts, the vast majority of people are closer to the jeans and t-shirt end of the spectrum. No-one wears a tie or a jacket. I am the most senior woman in my office, so I don’t have a lot of examples… I want to look appropriately professional but also not out of place!

    I realised this summer I like wearing jackets (instead of jumpers/cardigans) and that jumper + jacket is probably a better winter combination than jumper + oversized jumper/hoodie. (Our office runs cold!). But the casual-ish jackets Ive been wearing during all of my pandemic outside walks/gatherings I think look weird inside…

    So in conclusion – I’m looking for jacket styles that read less formal than ‘blazer’ (though perhaps a blazer in a casual fabric could work) and more formal than ‘hoodie’, and don’t look like a coat, so I can wear them inside. It’s a big ask… :p any suggestions welcome!

    1. Admin of Sys*

      (I’m assuming you’re a guy, since there are a lot of options for non-blazer jackets for women)
      Most of the guys in my workplace go with casual blazers over graphic t-shirts. It dresses up the tshirt and dresses down the blazer – overall, it reads to button shirt level, but ymmv.

      2. TechWorker*

        Haha what are these lots of options? Genuine question, I’m struggling to find things that are between blazer and very casual.

        1. Allypopx*

          A drape front cardigan, a blazer made out of less structured material (there’s a lot of stretchy ones), a thick button up sweater, a kimono style sweater, there really are lots of options!

        2. Kimmy Schmidt*

          Sometimes companies will label more drapey, casual blazers as “cardigan blazer”, “sweater blazer” or “knit blazer”. This style seems to be getting more popular and I’ve found more options lately!

        3. Admin of Sys*

          okay, so i lose points on reading comprehension there, sorry! (i even skimmed it twice and still completely missed ‘most senior woman’ *sighs*) blazer plus tshirt def also works for women, but there are lots of knit drapey open jackets that are nicer than hoodies / jerseys but not as formal as blazers. places like chicos has them in their travelers fabric, lots of folks have them in cotton knit.

      3. Llama face!*

        Nope, she says “I am the most senior woman in my office”. :)

        TechWorker* if you can find some, I really liked the casual but not [i] casual [/i] look of blazers that are in soft sweatshirt-like materials. They still have the general shape of a blazer but because of the material they feel (literally and figuratively) a lot more relaxed. There were quite a few in stores a couple years ago andpossibly when the fall stock starts coming out we might seethe again.

        1. Llama face!*

          Ok so my tablet glitched that reply. The last line should read, “There were quite a few in stores a couple years ago and possibly when the fall stock starts coming out we might see them in stores again.”

        2. Seven If You Count Bad John*

          JJill and Soft Surroundings carry this type of thing, sometimes Chico. There are also knit cardigan things that are cut/tailored like a jacket. You can also sometimes find denim jackets in colors and cuts that skirt that line.

        3. Ooooof*

          What you’re describing is what I’d call a ponte blazer.

          A lot of utility, military, and anorak styles can work inside! Those made from canvas and cotton, not the outdoor swishy water resistant fabrics. As an example, Talbots is selling something they’re calling a “tailored utility jacket” that’s meant as a layering piece that can absolutely be worn in the office.

    2. Choggy*

      You can try jackets in softer materials that look more casual than a more structured jacket. I wear those all the time, they probably lean more toward a sweater/cardigan but are still professional and keep me warm when needed.

      1. The Rural Juror*

        I’ve had some blazer-style jackets in more casual fabrics that are nice. My office skews VERY casual and most people wear jeans. I (mid 30s, she/her) tend to wear dark jeans and solid-color, fitted tshirts. If I have a client meeting, I like to throw one of those jackets on (it’s freezing in our conference room!). I keep one hanging on my chair and take it home from time to time to swap it out and wash it.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Would a knit blazer feel jackety enough to you, or would it just feel like a cardigan? There are also lightweight jackets that are cut like a denim jacket but aren’t as heavy.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Banana Republic Factory online has a couple of knit blazer options on clearance right now (I just bought one), and in the “you might also like” suggestions they had at least four other styles that looked comfy ranging from blazer style to drapey cardigan.

        I also found a faux-suede casual jacket with a drapey front on Amazon, they had a lot of options for casual jacket-like styles.

    4. TechWorker*

      Some good ideas thank you! I used to have a jersey fabric type blazer and lost it somewhere a few years back, but maybe a replacement to that could work.

      Googling ‘utility jacket’ also gave a bunch of viable options so thank you for that suggestion too :)

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        I use denim jackets (which may or may or not have a couple of goofy pins on it at any point in time) as a “blazer” with skirts and dresses, personally. I roll the sleeves up to 3/4 length. Not too warm to wear inside, easy enough to throw a heavier coat over when it’s cold outside, and mine have pockets, for folks to whom that is appealing. I have the standard blue denim, but also a couple colors – beige, black and red.

  91. Curious Librarian*

    I know this is a long shot, but if Em from the “interesting jobs” post back in April who works at an EAP call center is open to answering a few questions, I would like to know more about how one gets into that field and what the day-to-day is like. I’m a librarian considering a career switch, and what Em does sounds like something I’d enjoy and find very fulfilling. (I’m already in the business of answering a wide variety of questions and referring people to a range of resources, and I think my skills conducting reference interviews would transfer well.) Alison, if you happen to see this and have the time, could you please reach out to Em and ask if she’d be willing to talk with me?

    I know I’m late in asking this, but I was on maternity leave and am just now catching up on some old posts. I’d comment on the “interesting jobs” post directly, but it has been so long that comments are closed on that one. Thanks!

    1. Em*

      Hi Curious Librarian!

      That’s me, and I’d be happy to. I’d rather not put my email here in plaintext, but if Alison has a moment to put us in touch, I’d be happy to talk either via email or on google hangouts or wherever. (For what it’s worth — getting into the field is very easy. It’s a customer service job in a call center. Customer service jobs in call centers are always desperate for employees. Ours is a little more picky than most, but not by that much in terms of raw qualifications.)

      1. Curious Librarian*

        Hi Em! Thanks for replying! (And sorry I was so slow to respond. Having a four-month-old at home means I don’t get to look at the AAM comments when I’m not at work.) I understand not wanting to share your email here. If I don’t hear from Alison this week, I’ll send her an email.

        I’m most interested in what the hours and salary might look like, and how one even finds a job working for an EAP.

  92. Dobermom*

    I just wanted to jump on here with a little bit of good news! I posted a question in a previous Friday open thread about how much info to give my supervisor about an internal job search. There were a ton of reasons why I wanted off of this team/org, but wanted to stay with the company.

    I’m happy to say I was offered and accepted my top choice in roles! I even had to do a little salary negotiation, and it went well! (I’m coming from an incentive/commission role, and this is strictly salary/annual bonus.)

    The day before I received the offer, my team let someone go – and they gave me half of her account load. I felt a little (just a little) bad dropping the news on them that I’d been offered my top choice position after that happened… But I could not be more excited to get into a more creative role with much more visibility within my company.

    I don’t post here much, but I read AAM daily. This site has given me a much healthier compass for what’s “normal” and what’s “toxic” as far as work environment goes. Once it really sunk in how toxic my team was, I did everything I could to shift to a better group within my (large) company.

    I don’t have a question… I’m just so excited and I want to shout it from the rooftops!

  93. This Parachute is a Knapsack*

    I am stuck on how to deal with a panicky coworker. I work with Salesdude at a company that sells a managed service–my team is responsible for managing the service. Team works closely with Salesdude day to day, and he kindof sucks–don’t come for me, I know how hard sales can be because I’ve BEEN Saleslady, I’ve seen good and bad in sales teams. This guy manages up but is otherwise unimpressive, he won’t be long for this world.

    In the meantime, the best of all his features is that Salesdude has ZERO chill when he’s overwhelmed. He routinely goes into full panic mode in the hours before a client meeting and causes a huge wave of uncertainty and chaos that then follows us into the meeting. This morning he was so freaked out that we didn’t know what we were doing, how to objection handle, what are we doing to do if X that we pushed out a meeting wholly unnecessarily. A group prepped yesterday, we aligned on a plan, and all of that was out the window forgotten 12 hours later–it was clear that him joining in panic mode wasn’t going to be productive, so we chose the least-bad of crappy options and rescheduled.

    1. Please join me in shrieking WHAT THE FUCK into the void.
    2. How on earth do we break this cycle? There are not enough hours of the day for me to spend the 90 minutes prior to every client meeting doing crisis intervention.

    Boss is aware of Salesdude’s impact on Team and low-key agrees it’s a matter of time, but in the meantime Salesdude will have another meltdown on Monday.

    Send help?

  94. PegS*

    Okay, what I hope is an easy question: I just accepted a new job, going through the background checks etc., so my start date probably won’t be for 3 weeks at the earliest, even though the hiring manager is hoping to get me onboard quickly.

    I was thinking it might be nice to send an email to the hiring manager during this limbo period along the lines of “I’m so excited to join your team…” Do all of you generally do this and, if so, any advice? I think I’m overthinking this a bit…

    1. Lynn*

      I think that’s a great idea! You can also ask if there’s anything you can brush up on in advance to help with the transition (if that’s something you are comfortable offering!) or to confirm details for parking / entering the building / where to meet / what supplies you may need, etc

  95. MMM*

    Are scrunchies unprofessional? Specifically in a business casual setting, would it be frowned upon to wear them? I typically wear my hair in a low ponytail or bun with a scrunchie (solid color, not oversized) and am wondering if that would be ok or if I should switch back to regular hair elastics that are less visible

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      I think it depends on the rest of the outfit. If it leans really youthful and casual, the scrunchie might be too much in that direction. I am a woman with longer hair and I don’t wear scrunchies at work (as a point of reference).

    2. Paige*

      I think it would be more okay with a bun than with a ponytail, but that’s mainly because I think ponytails tend to be seen as less professional than buns. But for business casual, I’d think both are fine, and a basic solid-colored scrunchie should be fine.

    3. Allypopx*

      I wear scrunchies, but I’m also a loud dresser. Not unprofessional, but definitely not super reserved. So YMMV.

      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        That’s what I was thinking.
        Beige and black are solid colors. So are chartreuse and day-glo orange.

      2. PegS*

        I think if the rest of your wardrobe is fairly streamlined, I wouldn’t use scrunchies. I’d go with a regular elastic or even a barrette.

      3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        My husband describes my favorite colors to wear as “bright paisley” and “look, a paint factory exploded” :)

        I do not do scrunchies though – I’m a hairstick gal.

    4. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Hmm. I don’t think they’re the most professional choice because they read as more activewear/athleisure to me. However, I can’t remember ever noticing what my coworkers used to tie their hair back, so probably in real life they wouldn’t really register as anything enough to be frowned upon.

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      Personally, I think scrunchies are pretty casual. I guess one made of dressier fabric, like velvet or lace, might read differently. But that doesn’t mean they’re unprofessional. They’re just on the casual side of business casual, IMHO.

    6. thewingmaster*

      I wear scrunchies, but I keep it at solid colors and have nicer ones made of silk. I find that regular hair elastics are too “tight” for my hair.

    7. WellRed*

      I think of scrunchies as kind of dated but maybe they are back in? They are less polished than other options but it doesn’t sound like you look unprofessional at all.

      1. banoffee pie*

        They’re back in as part of the whole 90’s revival, which I’m pleased about. They’re easy on your hair.

    8. ferrina*

      I’ve seen scrunchies most at the senior leadership level. I have no idea why this is.

      A neutral scrunchie in a bun is totally fine. Low ponytail scrunchie- meh, it can depend on your hair type. But in most business casual environments, I don’t think this would be a big deal. Make you can make it part of your personal brand :)

      1. Stitching Away*

        Possibly generational? I tend to think of scrunchies having a major boom in the 80s, and people who were teens then would be at the right age for senior leadership now.

    9. Angstrom*

      I think it’s fine as long as it looks matched to the outfit and not “random grab from scrunchie basket.” :-)

    10. No Tribble At All*

      If you prefer the comfort of scrunchies to a hair elastic, try the invisi-bobble? I don’t remember the exact name, but it’s a coiled elastic hair tie. It looks like an old-style telephone cord. DOesn’t leave dents in your hair the way hair elastics do.

  96. JT*

    Deciding to work for a potentially difficult manager…

    I currently work in an administrative assistant role and have been doing it for nearly 10 years. A position has opened up in our department that would be at the “professional” rather than “support” level and would give me the opportunity to stretch my brain more with project management, relationship management, and communications – strategy, research, implementation, etc.

    My current position has a good manager, but I’ve long outgrown my position. The new position would be an exciting challenge (and a big pay increase), but the manager is very different from me. She is an extroverted think-out-loud type, while I’m introverted and have my thoughts fully formed before I consider uttering them. She is disorganized – I legit find organizing things soothing and fun. There are many ways we could complement each other, but our differences would likely also lead to frustrations, too. She is demanding, can be a bit of a bully, and a micromanager. She has a team member who’s worked for her for over a decade, and just took a new role that will continue that dynamic. I am decent at setting boundaries and getting better at managing conflict.

    I need to get out of my current position as it’s boring and I’m making less than what is comfortable for me. This new position would allow me to remain in my department and get that next level of responsibility (historically, it’s very difficult to get out of the admin asst pool once you’re in it at my workplace). I’m thinking even if the manager relationship is too much, at the very least I’ll have that next level position to put on my resume when I go out for a new job in a year or so. I have plenty of experience working with crappy-to-abusive bosses. It’s not something I want to do again, but the career advancement and salary increase might be worth it.

    Thoughts/advice/horror stories/success stories?

    1. PegS*

      Ooof, I’d think hard before taking this job. There’s a reason why the trope “people don’t leave companies; they leave managers” exists. I’m an introvert who’s worked with lots of extroverts. I can handle disorganization and bluster, and have learned to push back as required. I’ve even had some bullying types end up respecting me for taking the bullying (although it really depends on if they are real bullies or not). What is soul-crushing, though, is the micro-managing.

    2. Allypopx*

      I have more or less catapulted my career off working for difficult bosses – you gain SO many skills. Diplomacy, managing up – conflict resolution and setting boundaries are also definitely on that list. Future jobs also love to hear about how you managed a difficult boss, because it’s a universally understandable situation.

      I think this sounds like a situation that could push you outside your comfort zone which is sometimes really good. Also you mention you’ve had abusive bosses before and it doesn’t sound like that’s this situation, it sounds like this could be a great opportunity with some minor personality mismatches. That could still go really well!

      If nothing else it’ll look good on your resume and you’ll be making better money while you job hunt. Go for it, and give it an honest chance.

    3. Colette*

      This is really an individual question. If you had a conflict with her, would you be able to be honest with her about where you see the issue and talk it through? Or would you give in and let her bully you?

      Honestly, she doesn’t sound terrible to me – if you can deal with her and let it go at the end of the day.

    4. SG*

      I once found myself in a similar situation and was able to reach out to a couple of trusted collagues who worked for Difficult Manager (one currently, and one previously). They shared their experiences and gave me some really good tips and suggestions, such as better/worse times of day to approach Difficult Manager (DM), communication tips, what types of things would cause hostile/defensive reactions, how to mitigate or be proactive about micromanagement (i.e. giving DM more details upfront in emails, i.e. even obvious-seeming stuff, to answer questions before they were asked).
      Is there anyone you could go to for similar advice?
      That aside, I think it’s really a cost-benefit analysis. I worked for DM for a year or two, and it was frustrating but an important promotion and stepping stone that led to another amazing promotion working for my current amazing manager. I have no regrets about making that trade-off! It may help to visualize yourself in the job, imagine how you would handle certain traits or interactions, etc.
      Good luck!

  97. Ooooof*

    I deeply value camaraderie and relationships at work, and I even like small talk! But not games. I have been invited to a get-to-know-you team event that promises a “super fun” “top secret” game and I’m already cringing! It’s hard enough to walk into a (virtual) room of strangers, please give people time to get comfortable without adding elements of surprise and performance.

    2. Colette*

      I agree this kind of thing shouldn’t be a surprise, but I really want to know what the game is.

    3. Campfire Raccoon*

      Yuuuuck. Surprises really prevent any useful pre-game user feedback. Like, “Wow, this game only allows able-bodied people to play” or, “The name of this game is a squiddlebit racist/sexist and makes me uncomfortable” or even, “This is the lamest thing ever, Karen.”

  98. Cute Li'l UFO*

    I’ve been job hunting pretty seriously since April this year. I stayed employed throughout last year but things are approaching a might-be-dire situation in the next month or so. I’ve always had full transparency from my boss, which is fantastic, and I’ve been able to afford the same for him. It’s been exhausting keeping up with the day job, keeping on top of opportunities, striking out the “nopes” on my spreadsheet, and trying to keep the house and everything up.

    I don’t think I’m completely burned out to a crisp but I’m just really tired. I had one screening interview that didn’t progress, quite a few red cells in my sheet, but also so many that are just… waiting.

    One of my college friends (also a rice sculpture designer) has been looking since March and just accepted an offer. I know it’s a slog. I’ll get there. But oh man, I forgot how tiring it is :(

    1. ferrina*

      It is exhausting! Make sure to schedule time out to just do nothing. Maybe Sunday from noon to midnight is your relax time, and you will not do anything.

      If you’ve been applying diligently since April and only had one screening interview, you might want to look at your application process. Does your resume highlight your accomplishments, ideally in a quantifiable way? Does your cover letter share your soft skills and why they are a match for this role? Are you applying for jobs that fit your skills? (seriously, don’t waste your time spamming or “playing the numbers game”. A thoughtful job search can get you better results- burnout never helped anyone present their best self)

      1. Cute Li'l UFO*

        Yep, it is a competitive field (what isn’t). Rewrote my resume, write and tailor cover letters, and definitely apply for what reasonably fits my skills. I’m in a hub for it. I absolutely don’t spam (time is spent doing better things, really) though it seems recruiters don’t seem to take that screening process as seriously as I do.

        Hilariously I got one seeking a janitor completely in Spanish (a language not on my resume at all and far from my skill set!) and another looking for… someone… entirely in Mandarin. I do speak Mandarin but at an incredibly rudimentary level. Oh, and there was the one recruiter who started off with “Hey mamí!”

        I might take some time to make up a couple fun portfolio level branding projects. I have a good portfolio but I know when I graduated from college I wanted to rework past projects (but better!) and make some new stuff to fill in the gaps and again tailor make to the kinds of jobs I wanted to get.

  99. Ann Perkins*

    How does your office handle exit announcements? Are they similar whether the person is leaving for a new job, or was fired for poor performance?

    Our HR person is being overly explanatory in emails about exits IMO but I’m not sure what the norm is. It used to be very congratulatory when someone left on good terms for a better job, and silence if someone was fired (but in an office of 50 people, word spread quickly anyway). Today’s included an odd tidbit that it was to “allow her time to plan her wedding details” since she’s getting married soon and oh my goodness I know that’s not even the real reason but I’m aghast that was put in an email.

    1. Lyudie*

      “Leaving for another opportunity” is about the extent of it in most places I’ve been. Maybe the announcement will mention where if it’s something especially notable. I would certainly not expect to hear someone was planning their wedding and that would make me think there was some reason she was leaving that was being covered up.

    2. ferrina*

      Depends on how gracious the exit is. If it’s a valued worker who is making a considerate exit (giving 2 weeks notice, helping transition projects out), there’s usually a quick paragraph highlighting why we love that person and that they will be missed. Sometimes it will say where they are going.
      If it’s a firing, it will just say “Today is So-And-So’s last day. We wish them luck in future endeavors.” Occasionally there is just silence, depending how long the person was there and how dramatic their exit was.

    3. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      Normal in my experience is no notification; someone else answers the phone and emails fail to route, and that’s how you learn someone has left the organization, voluntarily or not.

      Your HR person has overshared today, but I like that you at least know someone is gone.

    4. Angstrom*

      My current workplace doesn’t do exit announcements. It’s frustrating because sometimes you only learn a colleague is gone when emails start bouncing.

      I liked the way a previous workplace handled it. The official HR notice was generic and neutral for everyone:”…is leaving. We thank them for their contributions and wish them well in future endeavors….” If it was a “friendly” departure their manager might circulate something more personal.

    5. OtterB*

      Ours aren’t consistent. We’ve had a couple of people leave for performance reasons but those are usually cordial “person will be leaving, their last day is” emails and if you didn’t know there was more to it, it wouldn’t be obvious. We’re higher-ed adjacent, so we tend to run on an academic calendar and it’s not unusual for someone to be with us for a couple of years and then leave for grad school; those are usually announced several months in advance, as is the occasional retirement.

    6. RussianInTeaxs*

      My office pretends the person have never been here in the first place, David who?
      Now, if it’s a coworker I know well enough, I would know if they are leaving, but otherwise I may get an reply to an e-mail with “Lan no longer here, please copy Sally”.

  100. Mimmy*

    Higher ed readers!

    I’m currently pursuing a graduate degree that prepares students to work in disability services at colleges and universities, though many students are already in the field or at least in a higher ed position.

    Anyway, as much as I’m enjoying the program, the curriculum is very specific to disability services and doesn’t appear to offer any real content on higher education in general. I almost wish I’d pursued a general higher education masters and tailor my coursework towards my interests.

    Therefore, I’m seeking good resources in understanding higher education in general (U.S), particularly when it comes to student services and academics. I will be taking one class this fall on administration of a disability services office, but I wonder if that’ll be enough. My goal once I graduate is to start as an accommodations coordinator or similar job title/role.

    1. OtterB*

      I’d start keeping up with the relevant publications. I think of Chronicle of Higher Education and Inside Higher Ed, but I’m sure there are others – maybe ask one of the professors in your program? I think, in addition to understanding student services, it would be helpful to understand more about the faculty experience, since I see things from the faculty POV about the challenges of working with accommodations. Some are jerks who think it’s too much trouble, but more have what sounds like communication problems where they don’t get the information they need or don’t get it in a timely fashion.

    2. LibbyG*

      I really liked The Student-Ready College. The premise is that we need to leave aside the concern about whether students are college-ready and instead focus on how to meet students where they are. It discusses the implications of this shift for college leadership. One of them, for example, is that you realize that everyone on campus is an educator, playing a role in shaping the student experience.

    3. Flowery Times*

      Check out the How… series (John Hopkins Press), like How to Run a College for the basics on university administration. For more student-centered things, try How college affects students: 21st century evidence that higher education works (3rd ed.). Also, Race on Campus by Julie Park. Good luck!

  101. dorothy zbornak*

    it is astounding to me that I have a coworker who cannot possibly realize that he hijacks every meeting by talking on and on and on and the only way to get him to stop is to straight up interrupt him. it is so frustrating, especially since no one seems to want to tell him? so I came here to vent, basically, and ask for polite suggestions that essentially translate to stop talking.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Timed agendas

      10:00 Llama health update (Fergus)
      10:10 Hay purchases (Nancy and acquisitions department)
      10:20 Recap of state fair (Wakeen)
      10:25 New business
      10:30 End

      This gives you a reason to interrupt the hijacker. “Bob, this has nothing to do with hay purchases.” “Bob, that’s not new business, we discussed it a month ago and decided to put it on hold until next year.” Etc.

      1. OtterB*

        If it’s work stuff but not directly on topic, we’ve had good luck with a “parking lot” (flip chart, whiteboard, etc.) to write down issues we want to come back to. If we get time at the end of the meeting, fine, if not, it can be added to the next agenda or scheduled as its own meeting.

    3. Stitching Away*

      If no one is telling him, he has a valid reason to not realize.

      Someone needs to actually tell the person. Outside of the meeting.

  102. J.B.*

    A senior person who did almost no work and had some delightful benevolent sexism (sarcasm alert!) is leaving. The super nice things being said are ugh but at least I don’t have to deal with him anymore!

    1. calonkat*

      “It’s so nice that senior person has the opportunity to move on.”

      (internal commentary) “couldn’t happen soon enough!!!”

  103. Aerie*

    Is anyone requiring proof of vaccination when hiring in-home help?

    I saw a new Facebook group pop up locally for people looking to hire/be hired as babysitters, pet sitters, house cleaners, etc. Among the group rules is “no illegal hiring practices – including requiring a Covid-19 vaccine.”

    I read a bit of Alison’s advice on offices requiring vaccines earlier this year, where she says businesses can mandate it “as long as the requirement is job-related and “consistent with business necessity.””

    Since my kid is too young to be vaccinated, I think I’d be in the clear with calling vaccination a “business” necessity to keep them safe. Thoughts?

    (Of course, as Delta is causing cases to surge even in my decently-vaccinated area, this is turning into a moot point personally as I don’t think we’ll be going out on a date night any time soon. ARGH.)

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I haven’t hired in-home help but I am active in a number of online parenting groups, and from what I’ve seen it is highly normal to require vaccination at this point. Perhaps in strongly anti-vax pockets of the country you might get pushback, and it will limit your candidate pool, but it’s a totally normal and ok thing to ask. I probably wouldn’t look in that group though!

    2. Mental Lentil*

      If you are paying them, you are their employer, and no, this is not illegal.

      It sounds like whoever created that group has some strong—cough, cough—political tendencies that aren’t going to be helpful in conquering this virus. The Greek alphabet has a lot of letters left after Delta.

    3. Former Hominid*

      you might want to report that group to facebook. They’re attempting to take vaccine misinfo seriously- and since it is not illegal to require a hire to get a covid vaccine- that’s misinfo.

    4. Small town*

      As an employer, it is not illegal to require a vaccine. Mine is an “at will” state so I can require that no one wears red shoes. And, one more time, the HIPPA thing is bogus as it only applies to health care facilities and providers.

    5. AnotherLibrarian*

      I think if you’re just hiring a babysitter for one night, I don’t think it’s an issue. If you are hiring a long term nanny, for example, there maybe other considerations. I’m not a lawyer and as an individual employer, you can likely avoid ADA requirements, I do not think you can avoid the Civil Rights issues that maybe at play. In other words, if someone has a sincerely held religious objection to vaccination, what accommodations are you willing to make for that person?

      1. RagingADHD*

        The US Department of Labor has stated that it is legal for any employer to require a covid vaccination. This is not a civil rights issue.

      2. Small town*

        The Civil Rights accommodation kicks in when you have more than 15 employees, which I doubt many homes have. And only of it is an undue burden, which many employers can argue that having unvaccinated folk may be. Raging ADHD is totally right about the Department of Labor.

      3. Stitching Away*

        ADA never applies if there’s under 15 employees. There’s also no civil rights issue. If someone has a sincere religious objection, they can work for someone else.

    6. Observer*

      Among the group rules is “no illegal hiring practices – including requiring a Covid-19 vaccine.”

      If this is typical of the way this group is run, run. Because whatever you may think about vaccines, the idea that it’s illegal to mandate it is ridiculous. Even in Florida.

      1. RagingADHD*

        And you know none of the sitters are going to be vaxxed, because that’s the entire reason for the group to exist.

  104. Lizzie*

    I’m currently on week three of our “gradual” reopening of the office, i.e. one day a week. Up until this, I worked from home 5 days a week, beginning in March 2020. I was excited though at the thought of coming back, but honestly, I kind of prefer working from home! It could be that a. its summer so a lot of people are on vacation and b. as we are only required to do one day in the office a week, its dead quiet! i’m here today, with MAYBE 10 people tops. its dead silent, and freezing cold!

    Not sure if things will get better as we all transition back to more days a week, if that even happens, given the rising numbers of COVID in my area they may push it back a bit, but is anyone else feeling this way? Today was excruciating! I’m actually going to sneak out a bit early as my boss is off, and no one else in my group is here! But I’m kind of disappointed as I really thought I would be happy to come back to the office, but really, I’m not all that thrilled about it!

    1. Choggy*

      I’m right there with you, struggling to get into the office two days a week this month in order to then fully transition to 5 days come September. It has been excruciating for me, I feel so jumpy and anxious, find it hard to concentrate, and now that I have more meetings to attend, find it very hard to do them from my cubicle instead of my nice home office. It’s going to take me some time to get used to the commute, having to put together outfits (business casual) with my weight gain, and having to deal with constant interruptions. And yes, the office is either humid and gross or freezing cold. And we are in the middle of painting and the carpets being replaced.

  105. snoots mcfroots*

    I have a friend who is interviewing for a position with a big name popular company that is considered a dream place to work at for a lot of people (including this friend.) The company has very recently has come under blast for huge problems with gender discrimination, sexual harassment, and longtime mistreatment of women in their workplace. I’m talking federal lawsuit, video and photo and company chat records of sexism, news articles every week unearthing new information and stories of harassment and all leadership turning a blind eye.

    Obviously, this puts a damper on my friend’s enthusiasm for the role, but it would still be a huge step up for her and she’s still interested. Does anyone have recommendations for during the interview or afterward (if she’s offered the job) on how she should bring it up and/or what questions or ask/what to look out for?

    1. Albeira Dawn*

      A couple companies I and my friends have interviewed for, specifically in the tech field, have made a point to let us speak with a woman who works in a similar role during the interview process, even if normally she wouldn’t be involved. I think asking for something similar, to be connected to a woman in the office, would be reasonable!

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I think I would be very tempted to lean right into it, it’s not like they don’t KNOW that, say, Tornados R Us ( >.> ) is currently getting some pretty severe shellacking in the press.

      “Since I don’t live under a rock, I have obviously heard a lot of the recent goings-on in the news, and quite a bit of what’s come out is concerning, to say the least. Can you tell me how this team and its management are addressing those issues and what y’all are doing to ensure that all team members are treated fairly and appropriately at all times?”

      I’m not sure how to phrase a request to talk to a couple of team members who aren’t white dudes, but if someone else can figure out a good wording for that, do that too.

    3. Distractinator*

      Absolutely – I’d want to ask how this team has responded, both the emotional reaction to the news, and the actionable responses being taken by the department. It’s interesting because while you do want to hear that the problems are not as severe on this team and that they’ve created a better local environment than the national news would suggest, you don’t want to hear “oh, that doesn’t happen here”, which almost certainly means that it absolutely does happen here we just decided not to see or care.

    4. Caboose*

      If it’s the company I’m thinking of, I like Red Reader’s suggestion to ask about how this *specific team* is handling things. There’s been some conflicting statements from various levels of management, and depending on department, there might be stronger action being taken “locally”.

      1. Observer*

        Uh, I don’t want to ask which company you are talking about. But I can think of at least 3 that would fit @snoots’ description. Unfortunately.

  106. The bad wife*

    Would love some help!

    I’m a lawyer and head of a team. I supervise my team’s casework but I’m not a manager. I feed back to management to flag any issues.

    I have a practice manager on site, to whom we all report, and then the directors in a different city (but very involved).

    One of my team has been under performing and lying about it to boot. She puts on a flustered and confused act but my sympathy is gone. She just pretends not to understand so she can screw around. She is *not* junior but I’ve had weekly supervisions with her to help her get a good diary system in place etc. I finally realised she isn’t “trying to be more organised”, she just isn’t bothered.

    I’ve brought it up to mgmt and they’ve “talked to her”. She apologises and talks about her family and nothing changes.

    I had a client complain last month and found the fil an s-show. So I made an appt with her to look at all her files. She just… didn’t come to work that day so I reviewed all her files and they’re a dumpster fire.

    I shared my (calm, factual) report with my manager and directors. The directors are properly alarmed. My on-site manager says “Okay I’ll talk to her” but then came back to me and said, “Well, she says her files are fine now”. I looked and… They’re not. She lied to manager.

    Director had his own look at the files online and is massively concerned and now says manager and I are to have *another* meeting with her to finally review them.

    I’ve said that I’m happy to meet/review but only if I understand what the objectives and consequences are. I’ve already reviewed the files and made a report. At this point it would be far less work for me to just take over all the files.

    My on-site manager is useless and says, “Well I feel caught between you two”.

    I’m actually considering quitting over this. Is there another way?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Hmm. Your on-site manager feels “caught” between the person who isn’t doing her job, and the person who caught her. You have a crappy manager.

      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        Absolutely.

        Unless there are serious time pressures on your work, just wash your hands of this until the next meeting. You’ve done everything you can do, and the on-site manager and the practice director have to take care of this now.

    2. Colette*

      What’s your relationship with the directors? Can you have a quiet word with them?

      I’d say meet with her and your manager to review them, and then escalate if necessary.

    3. WellRed*

      Wow. That on-site manager is totally useless. And why are the directors tiptoeing around this? I assume they outrank the on-site mgt. Also, I hope the employee can be let go but she’s not only not doing the job, she’s not capable of it. Aren’t there some ethical requirements around this?

      1. The bad wife*

        Thank you!!!

        I have no idea why everyone is tiptoeing.

        Yes certainly there are enormous ethical issues. My name is on these files as supervisor.

        The director made a point of thanking me and saying that manager should support me as supervisor.

        It’s not hyperbole to say I’m considering quitting over this.

        Am I within my rights to just refuse to do another “meeting and file review” until management spells out what consequences are going to happen?

        Otherwise aren’t I just undermining myself by repeating the same message?

        Not to mention the wasted time.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Yes certainly there are enormous ethical issues. My name is on these files as supervisor.

          Then you have the right – even the obligation – to make a VERY firm stand.

        2. NY LAWYER*

          I think you would be well within your rights to consider quitting if there are no repercussions ignoring clients or not taking appropriate steps on cases is a big ethical breach. I think it would also be appropriate to see if she can be moved to a different supervisor if thats possible.

          Could you re-frame the meeting from file review to more of a collaborative meeting to decide how to get back on track? Although to be honest I’ve worked with a few attorneys who just didn’t care and I think its going to be hard to get her to be on top of things without any kind of incentive (positive or negative)

        3. The New Wanderer*

          If you’re ready and able to walk over this, absolutely refuse and be blunt about why. You don’t need to have another meeting to discuss the issue. You raised this issue several times, it’s a Big Deal and they know and acknowledge this, it needs to be handled ASAP, and that’s all the input they need.

          Your manager saying they feel “caught” between you and non-performing, major liability liar is flat out ridiculous. If they can’t figure out the issue there, just say you will be glad to take the choice from them and leave them with non-performing, major liability liar.

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I supervise my team’s casework but I’m not a manager

      I’d be careful about your own exposure to liability here. Maybe you can frame this to your manager(s) as a risk to yourself — and also to the firm, now that everyone knows or should know that these files aren’t being handled per your jurisdiction’s requirements of professional duty. I feel like this is all fun and games until a statute of limitations is blown, or some money has been paid out of trust before it should have been, or etc.

  107. Emi*

    People who have returned to the office (even if you’re leaving again), I would love to hear if your dress code relaxed in the interim, either officially or unofficially?

    1. Mr. Cajun2core*

      Most definitely dress code has been relaxed at least unofficially. However, new grand-boss may put it back into place. Previous grand-boss didn’t really care.

    2. Bostonian*

      Hmmmm it seems like people are dressing up more, but I think it’s a “first dayback at school” effect that will wear off.

    3. Distractinator*

      We’ve always had a really broad span of what people wear to work and no blanket interdepartmental dress code, but the average is “business casual”. When 80% of people went work-from home, the 20% who were onsite were the c-suite (still wearing suits daily) and the technical support (still wearing jeans and band-logo tshirts). Now that we’re up to ~40% onsite, I see the engineers have reverted from checked-shirt and khakis to checked-shirt and blue jeans. So yes, somewhat more relaxed.

  108. I'd rather read.*

    My field, and my specific role, have always been almost entirely visual-based – think proofreading, though it isn’t that. I think I’m pretty good at it, always get exceeds on reviews, etc.

    My role now also suddenly includes, let’s say, proofreading audio files, i.e., by listening to them. This is not something that my field generally has ever had to deal with, but it is what it is, and it’s now unlikely to change. I am terrible at auditory processing; I’m the sort of person who can’t listen to podcasts because I zone out and then realize I’ve missed like 10 minutes of what was said.

    Any suggestions on how I can get better at focusing on auditory input, so that a) I can catch more issues and b) I don’t completely hate and dread and procrastinate this task? Has anyone successfully done this who’d be willing to share tips or techniques? I know this just might be how I’m wired, but I’d really like to improve this. I don’t have much trouble focusing on work in general, this is specific to having to listen closely to audio input and identify errors.

    1. Mr. Cajun2core*

      I had to do transcription work once and I found that headphones helped greatly. I am not talking earbuds but full over the ear headphones. Maybe you can even close your eyes and imagine/”see” the words?

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Would it help if you could also read a transcript? Auto-transcription software has gotten astoundingly good in the last couple of years.

    3. allathian*

      Ugh. Transcription software’s the way to go in this case.

      I also work in writing and have a hard time with auditory processing. I don’t remember names unless I can see them in writing and the best way to ensure that I remember a name is to write it down by hand, I can’t listen to podcasts or audio books without zoning out, I absolutely detest video trainings because for a fast reader it feels like a complete waste of time, etc.

      I’m a translator, and if my employer suddenly said I need to do video subtitling, it would be time for me to look for a new job. Subtitling requires a different skillset and so does interpreting.

    4. fueled by coffee*

      +1 on the transcription software

      I’d also *highly* recommend taking frequent breaks: depending on the nature of the ‘mistakes’ you’re trying to catch, I’d listen to 30 seconds (or 5 minutes, or 10 minutes), pause, write down any notes, replay those 30 seconds once to double check your notes, and then move on. Don’t take notes *while* you’re listening, because then you’ll miss whatever is said next.

      This sounds extremely tedious, but information gets covered *really* quickly in audio! Full sentences take less than a few seconds. It feels like the work goes extremely slowly but that’s just because so much gets covered so quickly.

    5. Other Duties as Assigned*

      +1 to full headphones vs. earbuds.

      Also, here’s something from my radio broadcasting background:
      If your equipment allows it, try listening at double speed or at least at some speed faster than normal. We did this back in the days of open reel recording tape. Doing so takes the possibly-distracting “performance” of the reading out of the equation because it makes everyone sound like a cartoon chipmunk. I think this might help in working against the “zone out” factor. Surprisingly, you can still follow the material. One of my coworkers would take a half-hour program and listen to the whole thing in 15 minutes to check for errors/missed edits and was flawless–she never missed one in all the years I knew her. I got to the point that I could take raw news material and listen to it at double speed up to to edit points, slow to normal to make the edit (with a razor blade!), then go back to double speed. It made me super-efficient.

      In LW’s case, they could listen at a faster speed up to an “issue,” go back to normal speed to fix it and then back to the faster speed. Since you can knock out a file in less than its posted running time, it might help with the procrastination factor, too.

  109. Farrah Sahara*

    Would love to hear readers thoughts on this one.

    I recently completed 2 professional designations that are specific to my role/industry. I added them to my LinkedIn profile name, e.g. “Farrah Sahara, ABC, DEFG” and had someone tell me this is show-offy and tacky, as you’re only supposed to list your given name on LinkedIn, not name plus designations.

    Is that true?! I worked hard for these, paid for them on my own, and I’m proud of myself for completing them! Does it look tacky to keep them in there or should I only list them under the “Certifications” section?

    1. Mental Lentil*

      I think there are plenty of doctors on there with “M.D.” after their name. I honestly don’t have a problem with this, assuming they’re real and not some for-profit .edu scam or a “pay $25 for this fake certificate”, which these aren’t.

      As I understand it, LinkedIn is a place to communicate about professional/career issues, and as these are specific to your role and industry, I don’t see what the problem is. Whoever told you this has a weird sense of what’s show-offy and tacky.

      1. Farrah Sahara*

        Agreed! I know you don’t put “John Doe, BA” but something directly related to your role should be good to list, in my opinion.

        Thank you for weighing in

    2. calonkat*

      “linkedin Adding a Suffix or Certifications to Your Profile Name”
      If you google that, it should pull up instructions on how to do that from linkedin support. So it’s allowed, they tell you how to do it, and who are these peons who are calling it tacky? They clearly don’t have the right to follow their names with ABC, DEFG :)

      If an employer tells you they didn’t hire you because of that, then maybe reconsider (and maybe be glad you’re not working for such petty people. Otherwise, who really cares other than people who don’t have those credentials?

      1. Farrah Sahara*

        Thank you for your wise response! I was really second guessing myself and wanted to see if others thought this was a business faux pas that I somehow hadn’t heard about.

    3. Teapot Repair Technician, LTRT*

      Do these letters indicate the type of work you’re permitted to do? Like are you a therapist with LMFT after you name, or a novelist with MFA?

    5. Massive Dynamic*

      The hell? Is your friend jealous? I’m Massive Dynamic, CPA on linkedin, thankyouverymuch.

      1. Farrah Sahara*

        I’m starting to think maybe it was a jealousy or insecurity thing. It was a coworker who found me on LI, but then I wondered why they felt the need to mention it or search for me in the first place!

    6. CatCat*

      I don’t understand why it would look tacky. Seems like a normal thing to do to me. Maybe this is an industry-specific issue though. Maybe poke around LinkedIn and see if others in your field put such designations with the profile name.

      1. Farrah Sahara*

        I’ve seen half and half re listing it. Quite a few do add theirs to their name and others just list it in their accomplishments. AAM readers have a wide range of experience so I wanted to see what other people do/prefer for their own profiles.

    7. No Tribble At All*

      Completely subjectively, I roll my eyes at people who put PMP after their name. But if it’s something like CPA, RN, PE (Professional Engineer), LCPC (Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor), where it’s a bona fide occupational qualification, go ahead!

      1. Farrah Sahara*

        Not a BFOQ, but something that shows I’m dedicated to learning. It’s not required for my role, but definitely helpful and good to have.

    8. OtterB*

      It could be industry-specific. I don’t use Linked In much so can’t speak to that, but I have “PhD” in my email sig because I’m not a professor but I work with a lot of academics and it’s a signifier for “take me seriously.” On the other hand, I really don’t expect to be Dr. OtterB other than perhaps on my nametag at a conference. But other fields can be different.

      1. Farrah Sahara*

        I agree with the “taking seriously” part. I don’t have a degree, but thought this adds a bit extra legitimacy if you will, to show that I may not have a bachelor’s, but have earned other credentials.

    9. V. Anon*

      If it’s something like AICP showing that you have a credential as a certified planner, yes, use it! That’s relevant to anyone hiring an urban planner. Since you said these designations are specific and recognizable in your industry, I’m assuming it’s something anyone in your field would know. I have heard some people do the reverse-snobbism thing of not listing Ph.D. after their name, but honestly? Most people who think it’s gauche to list your credentials are either so rich and well-connected they need never do so, or have no credentials and want to shame the competition out of listing theirs.

    10. The Prettiest Curse*

      I have connections with medical professionals (including nurses and doctors), public health folks and academics on LinkedIn and the vast majority put their credentials after their names. If you’re concerned, take a quick look at the profiles of others in your industry that you know have these certifications to see what they do. But really, I think you’ll be fine

    11. NY LAWYER*

      I think you should list it! There are times when its tacky but LinkedIn is specifically for professional networking so it would seem to me to be the appropriate place to use your professional designation.

    12. The New Wanderer*

      There was a movement recently to encourage women in particular to add their credentials (specifically aimed at PhDs but any credentials) to their LinkedIn names. This was in direct response to some loser publicly trying to condescend to Dr Jill Biden for using “Dr” instead of Mrs in contexts where it was perfectly appropriate for her to do so.

      There will always be insecure jerks telling you it’s tacky to do this or that. A LOT of people add credentials of all types, it’s definitely a common and widely accepted practice on LinkedIn.

      1. Farrah Sahara*

        It’s certainly nothing as fancy as a PhD or even close to those kinds of qualifications. Now that I look back, I agree with your assessment that it was coming from a woman who is insecure and badmouths others that have something she doesn’t.

    13. Anonymous Koala*

      I am not someone who generally assumes this, but is there any chance that you’re a woman, and the person who told you this was a man? When I was in academia, my male colleagues put PhD after their names in all kinds of contexts without thinking twice, but when I or one of my female colleagues did it we were told it looked silly because “everyone has a PhD”. It’s a double standard that drives me nuts (and honestly was part of the reason I left that field). I would look at what people one level above you in your field have put on LinkedIn, and copy their style.

      1. Farrah Sahara*

        That is good advice. Yes, I am a woman, but the comment came from another woman. I’m starting to think it’s because I know she has a lower level of education and was trying to hold me down, making sure I didn’t think too highly of myself.

  110. Rara Avis*

    My work is moving from a location with a huge parking lot to one with a tiny one. Although we were previously assured that there would be parking for everyone, we just got notified that they actually have 40 fewer spots than employees. They’re offering a financial incentive to carpool. Several of us asked what would happened if we committed to carpooling but needed to drive separately once in a while to leave early/arrive late for an appointment. The answer was you have to carpool 100% of the time because they’re aren’t any extra parking spots. Does anyone have experience carpooling 100% of the time? Is it crazy for me to contemplate doing it if I have a kid, who might need an emergency pickup from school? (Public transportation is kind of a joke; I checked the route-finder which first laughed at me, then spit out a route involving 3 buses, several miles of walking , and over an hour to go 8.5 miles. One of the good things about this move is that it’s closer to home and should therefore shorten my commute.)

    1. fish*

      A. Your employer sucks.
      B. Many metropolitan areas offer a carpool incentive program for exactly this situation — you commit to carpooling a certain amount of the time, and they’ll pay for a cab a few times a year for those emergency situations.

    2. Teapot Repair Technician*

      What’s in it for you? Do they pay you extra? If so, do they pay you enough extra to cover the occasional Uber ride?

      1. Rara Avis*

        The financial incentive isn’t bad — I’ve never used Uber but maybe it’s time to get on that bus (so to speak).

    3. calonkat*

      is it possible to find a parking lot a quick bus ride from the new job? Just as an alternative to committing to losing all ability to ever go to the doctor without taking an entire day off work (which just seems a weird thing for them to insist, but ah well.)

    4. CatCat*

      If the financial incentive were strong enough, I might consider it if the occasional need for using an Uber or Lyft (including during surge pricing) or taxi would be *more than* covered by that financial incentive.

      Otherwise, it would not be worth giving up convenience. And I’m not someone with a kid in school. I am someone who sometimes needs to go to the doctor, or dentist for part of the day, or even just occasionally want to duck out early on a particular day for personal reasons.

    5. ferrina*

      I have a couple kids in school, and my comfort would depend on 1) the age of the kid and 2) if anyone else can pick them up. Little kiddos obviously have more immediate needs than high schoolers (I don’t think I ever got an emergency pick up from my parents after I turned 13- if school was unexpectedly closed, say due to an earthquake, I could walk or take the bus). If you have family or other parents in the area that can pick them up, that can also make it easier.

    6. Sparkly Librarian*

      My (large municipal) employer offers a program called Guaranteed Ride Home, which would cover your transportation fees if you used public transit or carpooled or got dropped off at work and then needed to leave unexpectedly. Carshares and taxis were included, but you have to source your own ride (they don’t have cars on call or anything). I believe it would also apply to situations like going to your child’s school if they were sent home. Look into it for your area?

    7. Distractinator*

      I’ve rarely had the opportunity to carpool because it involves so much overhead of finding someone who actually lives near me and wants to go to work at the same time I do, and work the same hours. But after shifting my schedule just a little bit to compromise, I was spending longer than ever on the road because I had to drive from my house to a meetup point, with enough buffer to not be late; not a big deal but adding another 10 minutes to my day vs leaving to work straight from my own driveway. And then I started realizing that when the company advertizes their onsite gym and their flexible scheduling and hosting professional development seminars and interesting things in the after-work hour, carpooling keeps me from actually using those offerings. My advice, be really sure what you’re getting into.

      So yes, your employer sucks.

  111. clownfish*

    Hey everybody, hope you’re all well! I’ve got a question about something I’m noticing with my current job search:
    The big local employers of admin/office staff where I live are the college, the hospital, and the city. All the lower level jobs are casual and part time with no guarantee of hours. My friend got one job here with the hospital working the reception area and after three weeks without a shift, she had to find work elsewhere in order to pay the rent. Is this the norm in most places? How do most people get by working these jobs without the guarantee of hours? Working night shifts somewhere else?
    If it’s useful information, I live in Canada in a city of under 100K residents, and most jobs in town are retail or construction.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Wow. That’s not usual for office jobs at all in the US, especially the government. It is very typical for restaurant and retail.

    2. Valancy Snaith*

      Hi–I live in rural E Ontario, and I know lots of people in that boat. I used to work with the local employment service, and what people typically did varies depending on their background. Most people we encountered in that situation were women, and most of them were supplementing their husband’s income, so the hours weren’t a huge detriment. Lots of others would take those jobs in the hopes of being offered a permanent position (because all the places you listed liked to hire “internally,” meaning out of that pool of casuals), and in the meantime they’d make ends meet by working retail or shift work somewhere else. I would say it’s not uncommon, based on a few places I’ve lived, but it’s pretty crappy.

    3. PollyQ*

      In some cases in the US, your friend would be eligible for unemployment if her hours were cut, even on a weekly basis. But like Alton Brown’s Evil Twin, I’ve never heard of that for an office job.

  112. TooTiredToThink*

    Curiosity – I recently saw a job listing where the salary range was listed as $50,000-$150,000. Yeah. Seriously. I’m curious if anyone would see that as a red or yellow flag?

    (For the record, it was for a job title that I often see listed between about 60-110k depending on what level they are hiring for, but the ads are usually much more specific (like “range is 60-75, depending on experience” or “range is 95-110, depending on experience”. $50k would be somewhat reasonable if its an “on the job training” for this role (something that could happen as that’s how I got into this particular role), but would be on the very low end for someone with more than a year’s experience.

    1. Mental Lentil*

      The only thing I can think of with a range like that that is legitimate and not a scam would be commission-based sales. But I’m guessing this isn’t it.

      1. TooTiredToThink*

        No – it was in IT/Technology.

        When I went and checked out their Glassdoor I ended up noping right out of the job listing, but I was second-guessing myself as to whether or not that salary range was even a yellow flag or not (the Glassdoor reviews were *not* good).

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          It might well have been a scenario like this: they need a C programmer.
          With a degree, you come in as a Jr. Dev. I at 50M/y (50,000).
          With a degree and 3 years experience, you come in as a Dev. II at 75M/y.
          With a 7 years experience, you come in as as a Dev. III at 90M/y.
          With 10 years experience and a combined 10 years in C++, C#, VB, and SQL, you come in as a Sr. Dev at 125-150M/y.

          I haven’t known IT to recruit that way, but my spouse insists it’s how Insurance companies recruit… YMMV.

          1. TooTiredToThink*

            That’s definitely one of the scenarios that was playing out in my head as well (or, well similar).

    2. CatCat*

      I recently applied for a job with a pretty broad range ($63k-$132k). I did kind of wonder what the deal was, but it’s a large, long-standing, stable employer in the region and I would be interested in the role, but only near the top of that range. I just put my salary expectation in the application and called it a day.

    3. OtterB*

      Depending on the job, I’d think of it as a yellow flag. They might be willing to hire people at a wide range of the experience spectrum so the salary would be depending on experience. But yeah, that’s quite a spread.

    4. Ooooof*

      For me it would be a yellow flag. Not enough to keep me from applying if I was interested, but enough to ask a lot of questions. It’s possible they are open to a range of experience levels, from junior to super senior, and I’d want to know more about that. It could mean they don’t know what they want/need, which isn’t ideal but can be explained. It could be purposefully misleading, where they have no intention of giving the high end but want to draw people in — which would be bad. Or it could be an error.

  113. nothing rhymes with purple*

    “Bring your whole self to work”. There was an interesting side discussion about that in one of the posts this week. Some people said this concept is “absurd, destructive,” that they “detest” it, and find it “stupid.”

    Meanwhile, as UK Dancer put it, “Bringing your whole self to work means that my colleague Joe doesn’t have to pretend he’s straight and my other colleague Aisha can ask for adjusted work patterns for Ramadan. ” I brought up the example of Black women being free from requirements to straighten our hair.

    So does this mean that many people find it stupid, detestable, and destructive to have a workplace where Joe doesn’t have to pretend he’s straight, Aisha can ask for adjusted work patterns for Ramadan, and I can wear my hair in a natural style?

    1. Kara*

      No. It means that the definition of this term being used by UK Dancer is not universally agreed upon, and is not what many people understand by it.

      In many cases, it means that people are required and expected to divulge parts of their identity against their will, are forced to give up privacy and personal information, and are treated badly if they are introverted, or quiet, or prefer to maintain clear boundaries between work and their private life, or whatever.

      1. nothing rhymes with purple*

        So as Former Hominid put it, we are discussing two different things that have the same name.

        I don’t think the definition given by UK Dancer and LDN Layabout started with them, though, and not just because I first heard the term with their definition. I have a link to an AAM discussion I found, which I shall put at the end of the thread.

    2. Former Hominid*

      I think there’s 2 different things being discussed here. In some work cultures “Bringing your whole self at work” is like the “we’re a faaaaammmmilyyyy!” type workplaces where everyone is in everyone else’s business and you can’t take breaks or vacations without being denigrated for not being a “team player” and there are NO boundaries and it’s just god-awful. That is I believe what a lot of folks find absurd and destructive. The other way this could work is a work culture where “Bringing your whole self at work” means an inclusive and equitable environment where a persons racial/cultural/religious/etc differences and needs are accounted for and encouraged and any sort of bigotry is not tolerated and HR is aware and educated on the issues that can arise in a highly diverse workforce and is equipped to handle conflicts and scheduling appropriately.

      I have never in my life seen or heard of that last type of workplace existing. It sounds lovely. I have sadly seen the first one all the ding dang time. SO I think there’s a cross-purpose thing that happened in that thread.

      1. nothing rhymes with purple*

        I think you are right that we are discussing two different things by the same name, and that you have explained it well.

        But I did want to ask for clarification, because the people coming out against “bring your whole self to work” consistently just said “it’s AWFUL” without clarifying what they find so awful, and I have dealt with not a few people who do think that an office with less bigotry would be a terrible, terrible place.

        1. Former Hominid*

          You were well within your rights to ask for clarification, as such bigots exist and are awful themselves. But especially on this site- I would make the assumption that those who were complaining about said concept were complaining about the former one rather than the later. Especially since the sort of boundary stomping workplace alluded too seems to pop up in letters to Alison every single week without fail. Therefore it’s seen as a given- which it shouldn’t have been as folks might not be reading the archives or might be new or might be casual readers and not realize that “bring your whole self” can ring as a very red flag in a job description.

        2. Alexis Rosay*

          I will give an example that I found awful. I was in a meeting where the ‘warm-up question’ was to share your mental health struggles. And being forced to share actually triggered way more anxiety for me. And when we finished, the person who lead the warm-up thanked us all for creating a work environment where we could share this kind of thing.

          Now, if people want to disclose mental health struggles, I am all for that. I just do not want. I find that a lot of workplaces with a “bring your whole self” mentality do not distinguish between “you CAN bring your whole self” and “you HAVE to bring your whole self”.

          In the situation I described, the coworker who lead the activity had a lot of mental health struggles that she regularly shared, and I believe she probably felt validated by creating a situation where she was not the only one sharing. But it was really crappy for me.

          1. Pepper*

            That is indeed a terrible horseshoe path the concept was shoved down. Forced sharing is no closer to freedom than is forced silence.

    3. Llama face!*

      Hmm, that feels a bit more like a dig than a question when phrased that way. I wasn’t one of the people in that discussion but my sense of the “bring your whole self” dislikers is that it’s not about maintaining -ist systems where everyone pretends they fit the acceptable norm but about levels of reserve. I thought it could be related to the difference between peach and coconut styles of engagement/relationship building (which can be individual, not just larger culture differences). Very badly explained, the idea is that people have different categories of what’s public self vs private/friend self and it can be very uncomfortable- and feel like inappropriate intimacy- being expected to behave in the opposite style.

        1. Llama face!*

          Peach styles of relating are very open and friendly and move to casual styles of interacting early in the relationship. You will hear about their lives and selves even from new acquaintances but that doesn’t mean you are really friends. (Canada and USA broadly tend towards this style)

          Coconut styles are much more formal and reserved with new acquaintances and don’t share a lot of especially personal information with people who aren’t close to them. (France and Germany broadly tend towards this style)

          In interactions, peaches often think coconuts are cold and unfriendly but coconuts find peaches to be oversharers (and sometimes get stung by confusing the outward friendliness for true relationship).

          If you look up peach vs coconut on google there are lots of articles about it. :)

      2. nothing rhymes with purple*

        The peach vs coconut divide is an intriguing metaphor for elucidating a difference in personal styles.

        The thing is, I have dealt with quite a few people who think that not forcing Black women to straighten our hair or letting a gay coworker mention his husband without being punished is the same kind of relaxing of standards as letting people verbally attack their coworkers — I first took Alton Brown’s Evil Twin ‘s thread opener as yet another such statement. Asking frankly requires a leap of faith that it’s possible that it wasn’t.

        1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          I’m sorry you have had those experiences. I’m glad you asked about the phrase and I sincerely hope that most people who are negative about the “whole self” concept are thinking of the examples mentioned here, not about forcing non-hegemonic groups to pretend to fit the mainstream.

    4. Thursdaysgeek*

      No, what it means is UK Dancer has one definition for what “Bring your whole self to work” and others have a different definition. My definition would include being barefoot (absurd, unsafe).

      1. nothing rhymes with purple*

        Fair enough, though I should point out that UK Dancer didn’t make the definition they cited up out of whole cloth. My next comment, once it gets through moderation, will be a link to an earlier AAM discussion on the topic.

        1. Stitching Away*

          No one is saying they did. People are saying it’s possible for one phrase to have multiple definitions, which is incredibly common.

    5. V. Anon*

      In NYS it would be illegal to require Black women (or men) to straighten their hair. That is, sadly, a fairly recent law.

      BYWSTW *should* have UK Dancer’s definition but in practice that is extremely rare and instead means “we’re going to force you to take a personality test” or “everybody has to overshare about their personal life before the staff meeting begins” and yes, I find it detestable. It’s boundary-crossing and seeks to commodify and co-opt every minute of an employee’s life.

      1. nothing rhymes with purple*

        I was very glad when NYS passed that law. No such law was on the books during my girlhood in NYC.

    6. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I agree with others, the description you shared *should* be what it means to “bring your whole self to work” but in practice what that often ends up looking like managers who make you fill out daily emotion surveys or bully you into sharing details of private trauma.

      1. Pepper*

        So the concept is a victim of the kind of management practices that are the reason we can’t have nice things. That makes a great deal of sense and is also very depressing.

    7. James*

      “So does this mean that many people find it stupid, detestable, and destructive to have a workplace where Joe doesn’t have to pretend he’s straight, Aisha can ask for adjusted work patterns for Ramadan, and I can wear my hair in a natural style?”

      No, of course not.

      Some people have less than pleasant sides to their “whole self”. Those shouldn’t be brought to work. For example, I have a fairly violent temper. I’ve worked on it all my life, and at this point most people don’t realize how bad it can get. I consider that a good thing, given the trouble my temper has gotten me into (breaking your hand a few times does that). Should I stop restraining myself in such a fashion, on the grounds that I should “bring my whole self to work”?

      Or, let’s say that my wife and I have a relationship where she refers to me, not as her husband, but her master. I know couples like that, ones that have loving and long-lasting relationships. Should she continue to refer to me that way at work functions?

      Or, let’s say my kid has a medical issue I just don’t want to talk about. Am I required to? Not discussing a major source of distress is certainly not “bringing your whole self to work”, after all.

      Or, let’s say I’m a QAnon believer. Would you be okay with me discussing those views? After all, don’t want to make someone feel like they can’t “bring their whole self to work!”

      People advocating this philosophy only look at the positive side of it. And there certainly are issues where we should strive to make a broader array of potential lifestyle choices acceptable in the workplace. But there are also things we simply cannot allow. These include things that are otherwise perfectly moral and even socially acceptable in other contexts.

      “Bring your whole self to work” is one of those ideas that sounds good, but when you think about what it actually means it breaks down pretty quickly.

      1. Pepper*

        But the thing is, a workplace where someone can safely wear a hijab is not the same as (probably the opposite of) a workplace where someone can ‘safely’ scream and throw staplers at their officemates. I am still unconvinced that encouraging the one necessarily means encouraging the other.

    8. Observer*

      So does this mean that many people find it stupid, detestable, and destructive to have a workplace where Joe doesn’t have to pretend he’s straight, Aisha can ask for adjusted work patterns for Ramadan, and I can wear my hair in a natural style?

      I find it very interesting that you are claiming to be confused about this. The fact is that the people who said that they found the concept problematic were mostly QUITE explicit that this is NOT how they have experienced the concept.

      MY question to you is: Why are you ignoring what was explicitly stated? And why are you trying to make it sound like people are being *ist, when that’s totally not the case?

      1. Pepper*

        That’s an interesting use of the word ‘interesting’. And I did not find the clarity you describe.

        To quote myself, “I have dealt with quite a few people who think that not forcing Black women to straighten our hair or letting a gay coworker mention his husband without being punished is the same kind of relaxing of standards as letting people verbally attack their coworkers.”

  114. banoffee pie*

    Hello all,
    Have been reading and enjoying this site for years but never posted until now. You all are very entertaining and educational people!! Hope someone can help me with a quandary.

    I am a recently-qualified (UK-based) proofreader and I’m thinking about starting my own freelance fiction editng/proofreading business. I also applied for work with an online US-based proofreading agency, which a lot of people advise you to do in the early stages of this career to get a little experience (and $). I had to pay almost $400 for a proofreading course, which I didn’t need as I have a merit in the Publishing Training Centre’s proofreading course (the UK industry standard). As far as I know this almost $400 course only qualifies you to work for this company; it isn’t widely recognised in the UK at least. But if you do the course and pass with distintion they offer you “guaranteed work”. Anyway, I passed the tests and was offered a freelance contract – very exciting!

    Bit of a bummer when I read the contract, though. The pay is not great (not enough to live on) and there is no guarantee of any particular amount of work; however, the contract has a “No Conflicts” clause which stated that I should not try to “direct persons towards any competing service/business” while working for them or for 12 months after leaving. Obviously I don’t want this to stop me taking on any other work at all, even for 6 months after I leave (!), especially since I have to agree to this before I see what the work would be like or meet the people involved. I think they can let me go at any time so theoretically I could do one 1000-word document for them and be let go and unable to do any other similar work for a year. I would like to start my own website and advertise for clients and I’m pretty sure that would be in violation of this contract. The contract is based on US law (Delaware was mentioned) but it seems pretty clear. Is there any point in asking them to clarify – maybe they don’t mean you can’t start your own business? Maybe they just mean don’t stand outside their office with a sign saying “These guys suck, you should try *arch-rival firm*?” But I would be wary of that, as the contract also said the contract supersedes any conversations you have with anyone working for the company.

    What do you think of offering “guaranteed work” and then turning around and saying “as long as you don’t do any other similar work”? I had to pay the almost $400 for the course before I saw this contract. Maybe they don’t expect you to want to start your own proofreading/editing business, but I don’t see why not! It seems to me that a lot of people interested in working for them would also be interested in starting their own proofreadng/editing business. What do you guys think about signing this contract? Thanks to anyone who read all this!! Any advice appreciated.

    1. V. Anon*

      I’m sorry, but it sounds a like a scam. I’m not familiar with the UK system–is there something like an alumni office at this Publishing Training Centre you attended? I would run it by them. Non-compete contracts are indeed a thing in the US but not for freelance proofreading jobs! I would definitely ask the company to clarify, but assume that everything they tell you will be slanted to their own interest and they will not be letting you know what your own rights are in the situation.

      Delaware is a state with extremely loose laws for corporations. Companies all over the world are incorporated there as a result.

      1. banoffee pie*

        Great idea! Am I assertive enough to do it lol? Can’t help thinking they’ll just get someone else who doesn’t read the contract as closely ;)

    3. TechWorker*

      ‘Direct persons towards any competing service or business’ – I don’t know what context ‘persons’ is in but is it possible this simply means that you can’t do direct work for any clients you meet through their company?

      1. banoffee pie*

        Yeah I thought that myself and I agree it wouldn’t be great if I just stole their clients, but I don’t think you can do that anyway because they’re always the middleman, you never communicate directly with clients. It seems more like you can’t direct *anyone* to another service.

    4. Invisible Crayon*

      I’m sorry, I don’t think you should have paid this company anything. Run. And join SfEP.

      1. banoffee pie*

        I should clarify that I’m able to afford losing the almost $400, luckily, I’m just concerned for people who aren’t. I went in with my eyes open that it may not be “ideal”, I just thought I would give it a try. I don’t think it’s a scam in that the work is there if you’re willing to sign this contract, which might be ok if you’re a student or someone who works in a different field trying to supplement your income. The problem is that I want to start a business in the same field. Thank you for your concern

          2. banoffee pie*

            Yeah, I’m not going to sign the contract. Had pretty much decided not to anyway but wanted to see what folks here think as you’re all more used to US laws/mores than me. Thank you for the advice, very helpful!! :) Will hopefully soon be joining SfEP/CIEP, Invisible Crayon :) Thank you again

      2. Clare*

        So you pay $400 to be given no guaranteed work and they try to stop you making a living?! I wouldn’t sign the contract. I’m in the UK too; it might be worth running it past a lawyer here as you don’t want to find yourself on the wrong end of a lawsuit if you ignored it. If you sign it will cost a darn sight more than $400. Chalk it up to experience.

    5. Stitching Away*

      Any company that requires you to pay money to be employed by them is a scam.

      In the US, unpaid training (nevermind training you pay for) is illegal.

      1. banoffee pie*

        Interesting, thanks. I thought it could be legal because quite often on this site I’m hearing about things that would definitely be illegal in the UK, but are apparently legal in the US.

      2. ronda*

        well…… Tax prepartion services (like HRBlock) charge you for the book for the training classes to learn how to prepare tax returns (about 100 to 150), but not for the actual classes.

        So there are ways they can do this legally.

        1. Stitching Away*

          There are almost always loopholes to do illegal things legally. The companies and people who find those loopholes are not ones that will treat you well.

  115. BananaNaan*

    I’ve decided to begin applying for graduate school this fall and winter, but I’ve also seen an opportunity for a job that’s right up my alley, pays more, and has a shorter commute time. The job is for a university, which would actually pay for credits towards a masters… but not a masters in what I’m applying for. Should I apply for the job? I’ve been at my current job nearly three years now, with good reviews and increasing titles and responsibility.

      1. BananaNaan*

        True! And I’m not sure if I’ll get into grad school this round, so having a better paying job to save up money would be helpful.

  116. The Dude Abides*

    I need someone to talk me off the ledge. I know that interview steps can take longer than anticipated, but for me it’s still nerve-wracking.

    I had a phone screen for a fully remote position last week, and was told interview decisions would be made by the middle of this week. I thought the chat went well, and I’m overqualified for the position (they want a BS and two years’ experience, I have my Master’s and eight, four of which is within their niche industry).

    Nexus isn’t an issue, since they already have operations in my state.

    My nerves also come from wanting out of my current role after four months. I’m still stuck putting out fires from my old unit due to turnover (ex-grandboss retired in April after hitting the 1-year mark, ex-boss just left for a different agency after less than a year), and I have no desire to manage my old unit (the day after ex-boss put in notice, the new grandboss called me asking if I was interested in the role).

    I’m trying to be patient, but it’s hard right now given my work situation and not having access to my two main outlets for venting frustration (rugby and in-person Magic: the Gathering).

    1. Wool Princess*

      What would you do if you weren’t going to be offered an interview? Alison often suggests pretending you’re not moving forward in the process, and letting it be a pleasant surprise if it happens.

      I would keep searching and try to channel the enthusiasm for this job into applications for other jobs. You seem to have put a lot of pressure on this job lead, which can lead to disappointment at any stage but especially when you’ve only done a phone screen.

      Meanwhile, journaling and cardio are two outlets for venting frustration that don’t require others’ participation.

      1. ferrina*

        Seconded. Alison’s advice is spot on- pretend like you’re not moving forward in the process. I felt it helped to take each step as it came, rather than seeing each as building to a job. See each step for it’s own merits- “today I got to talk to someone intelligent in the industry” (yeah, that was a rarity at my OldJob). “Hmm, today I learned that skipping lunch before an interview makes me hangry, and I don’t interview well hangry.”

        Side note: I’ve heard that a couple online MtG platforms are quite good.

        1. Cute Li'l UFO*

          Yes, all agreed. You have to move on, find a distraction. And as one of my favorite musicians said when working on his music to let something go before it becomes too dear to him. I definitely found/find myself scattering that enthusiasm everywhere.

          I had to stop posting about interviewing in the past when I’d talk about job hunting on Facebook. some of my friends got WAY too emotionally invested on my behalf (stuff like “that should have been YOUR JOB!” and I’m like “easy, easy, I have other opportunities)

        2. The Dude Abides*

          When I was actively job-searching, I found it easy to do. When it’s the only log I have in the fire, I’ve found it a lot harder to do.

          Re: MtG, I have Arena on my phone, but I only play it because it’s free. The formats I prefer to play (Modern/Legacy) are only available on MTGO, which is a dumpster fire of a client, and to buy/rent the decks I have in paper, it would easily run almost a grand to buy the digital cards, or about $25/week for a Cardhoarder or Manatraders rental.

      2. The Dude Abides*

        If this doesn’t pan out, then I’d keep showing up to my current job, and go through the motions with applying for the manager job the higher-ups want me in. It’s clearly not my first choice, but if they come through and offer a >50% pay increase (which is where my boss started), then I’d probably take it.

        I already do rugby-oriented cardio 3-4 nights a week, but I miss the camaraderie of those activities.

  117. Tired of doom and gloom*

    Tips for bringing a team together with a negative nancy at the centre?

    I am the project lead working with a varied team, and for context I don’t line manage those on the team. Thanks to covid I am remote, most of the team are on site together. The main specialist is proving challenging to work with, and I can see the team becoming affected. Specialist isn’t disengaged or unpleasant, more consistently reinforcing how difficult the work is and the problems we may end up facing (or may not!). They cannot see the effect this is having, and are adamant everyone on the team is happy. They are notoriously poor at reading people, I have several independent eyes reassuring me my interpretation is correct and people are feeling deflated.

    Any language I can use “in the moment” when the negativity spiral starts in meetings? Or other strategies I can use to help the others see that for all this is challenging it isn’t all doom and gloom?

    1. ferrina*

      “Yeah, it’s hard, but that’s why we have a kick-butt team! Now, back to [OTHER TOPIC]…”

      “I hear that you’re concerned about [ISSUE]- how about you and I set up a different time to chat a little more. During this meeting, we need to focus on [OTHER TOPIC]…”

      “Yes, that may come up and I’m keeping a tight eye on it. Right now I don’t want to divert resources for this issue that may not happen. Right now I need everyone focused on [OTHER TOPIC]….”

      Or even: “Wow, I’m starting to get a little bummed out here! Which is silly, because our team is amazing! So let’s focus on the next amazing thing our team is going to do…”

      This may feel a little hokey, but staying focused on the work and celebrating the team’s victories (and calling out individuals by name for their successes) really does help lift morale.

    2. James*

      I could be this person. By training and inclination I tend to focus on the negative–the positive stuff takes care of itself, the negative needs to be addressed. Given the team I work with this works; we all think in the same sort of manner. We find it engaging and exciting, to be honest–given our personalities we want problems to solve. But I can see how this can get depressing.

      If that’s what’s happening here (and I’m speculating a bit), one thing that can help is asking her to not bring up problems, but potential solutions. Or at least, don’t bring up problems without also bringing up potential solutions. That way it’s not “This is why we’re doomed to failure” but rather “Here’s a thing that could happen, and how we can prevent it because we’re so awesome”. Alternatively you could ask for the comments in an email (had a boss do that to me), with the same stipulation. Make the specialist think through the issue and ramifications before bringing it to the team.

    3. Alianora*

      Perhaps you could build a “challenges and solutions” section into the meetings, to talk specifically about problems you may run into and how you’ll deal with them. Because it does sound like the negative things she’s bringing up are important to consider at some point. It may help with morale if the discussion is limited to a specific section of the meeting and goes along with solutions. Then if she starts being negative outside of those times, you can say, “Let’s discuss that during Challenges and Solutions.”

  118. The bad wife*

    Thank you!!!

    I have no idea why everyone is tiptoeing.

    Yes certainly there are enormous ethical issues. My name is on these files as supervisor.

    The director made a point of thanking me and saying that manager should support me as supervisor.

    It’s not hyperbole to say I’m considering quitting over this.

    Am I within my rights to just refuse to do another “meeting and file review” until management spells out what consequences are going to happen?

    Otherwise aren’t I just undermining myself by repeating the same message?

    Not to mention the wasted time.

  119. Beth Jacobs*

    Non-admins – how much administrative work do you do? And admins – what are the expectations like at your company? Is it just rote clerical tasks, or do you do tasks like analysis or summarising materials yourself?

    Context: I’ve had a long and rough week. At a previous job, I would have asked an admin to share the load, but at my current job, the admins basically just schedule, print and scan.
    I’m a fairly junior in-house lawyer, and I put together an extensive report this week, with other colleagues contributing their parts. This involved some synthesis of legal analysis, but also grammatically proofreading their parts, unifying formatting, merging multiple data sets into one table, etc. It wasn’t worth using up my capital to complain about, but I’m just interested about how things work elsewhere. I’m assuming pretty much all office jobs have an administrative component – I just don’t know how much.

    1. Allypopx*

      I think this will vary a LOT by office. I work for a consulting firm and am one of three administrative employees, one of whom is very finances focused, me who’s operations focused, and someone who does more scheduling and minor office tasks. Sometimes someone will send me something for proofing or analysis or an extra set of eyes, and I’ll do firm-wide data analysis and reporting, but otherwise people largely handle the admin work on their own projects (making powerpoints, organizing their files, billing their hours, creating and proofing their documents, etc)

      1. Beth Jacobs*

        Thank you, I’m really glad for this input. I definitely don’t want to put myself into a “I’ll never do any admin work and asking me for it is sexism” box, because that’s just ridiculous and inefficient. But I’d also like some insight about how things work elsewhere :) !

    2. Invisible Crayon*

      I don’t work in law, but what you’ve just described – editing, proofreading, formatting and other document prep – is not my idea of admin.

      You might also want to watch how you talk about admins. You say they ‘just schedule’ and do ‘rote clerical tasks’. You may be underestimating what is involved in things like diary management.

    3. Ginger Baker*

      I find that admin roles are hugely varied and often largely dependent upon who is in the role. Often, admins (in my experience as on observing my peers) are either a) happy to sit back and do bare minimums when directly requested or b) actively seeking out more interesting substantive work – but there is also a strong sector of c) admins who might be happy to step up and do more but either didn’t think to offer or are worried about “stepping on toes” if they offer proactive assistance (and they may need some hand-holding and guidance to work on proofreading etc. – if they are unsure what to do they might feel intimidated to ask/offer).

      I support attorneys and have done significant amounts of proofreading, excel, TOAs, cite-checking, pulling cases from WL etc. I definitely fall into Category B, I spend much of my first year somewhere essentially marketing myself internally and recruiting work that “usually” people at [Company] may not give to their admins. But I have also worked with several folks who fall into C and who – when I *offered* to teach them some tricks for proofing etc. – were happy to learn but definitely were not going to volunteer on their own to the attorney before I informally mentored them.

    4. RagingADHD*

      When I was a legal secretary, both in firms and in-house, all that formatting, tables, proofreading, etc was secretarial work. The firm clients would have had a conniption if they got billed for that, and the in-house CFO would have had a conniption over paying an associate’s rate to do it.

      Analysis or summaries, no. Probably a paralegal might do that, but not an admin/legal secretary.

      Now, the secretaries were allocated to senior execs or teams. So a jr lawyer wouldn’t have their own support person, and if the team admin were swamped with something urgent (or prioritized for a senior person) the associate might wind up doing the admin work if it couldn’t wait and there was nobody in the pool to cover.

      But for a project like you describe, with the whole team contributing, I would expect the admins to be supporting it. It just sounds like terrible planning and cost management to have you do it.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      I work in marketing and communications at a mid-level manager role, a masters degree and 25+ years of work experience (so not a marketing assistant or coordinator).
      At some companies, some people do tend to treat comms people more like glorified admins. Especially the older male executives towards women. I had one who actually make me write his happy holiday message to employees! I’ve also had some expect that you’ll do all their PO’s, letter typing, and even organize their trips. Like NOPE! That is not what I do. I was hired to do marketing, not be your admin.

      Sadly, not everyone gets it. I recently withdrew myself from a marketing job I had interviewed for because all the work sounded like admin work. Granted, I have some admin work now (maybe 10%) and it’s all the crap I hate (budgets, data entry, purchasing, scheduling) because I like the creative work. I certainly don’t want more of the crap I hate. Like, hello! It’s a marketing job, not Admin.

    6. ronda*

      since it seems to vary so much from workplace to workplace, I think you should discuss it with your boss.

      I think you can say you were thinking about report and you did tasks x,y,z on your own (& how long they took), but were wondering if there were other resources that might be available for those tasks and should you be using them. Not in a complaining way, but in a way I want to make sure I am focusing on the right things in this position. (you can say the thing about focusing on the right things in this position)

      I was in accounting and the boss had an admin, but they often did things for the whole team. I personally hated scheduling my travel, so I just asked the admin if they could do it or I should do it myself. They almost always did it for me.

  120. just a thought*

    Has anyone else left a US government job?

    I just switched over from contractor to government last year. I had a HORRIBLE on-boarding. I’m still unclear on my benefits, but I’ve heard that’s the reason to take the government job. But what does that matter if I don’t know what they are or how to access them?

    My job specialty is government acquisitions which mainly takes place in DC. But I’m from the Midwest, and would love to move to my hometown. There are several big companies that need project managers and other transferrable jobs, but no US government offices that would have similar job openings.

    If I leave a government job, is there something I’m missing? Is there any reason to stay in government instead of moving home?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Air Force Materiel Command is in Dayton, OH. They do tons of acquisition work.

    2. Anonymous Koala*

      Fed benefits are usually standardized, and OPM.gov should have some comprehensive guides about health plans, retirement, FERS, and extras like FSAs. Your specific department should also have an HR helpline you can call for clarification. Most of the hiring managers don’t know anything about benefits, but HR should be able to help you. I was hired recently and I found out everything about my benefits by digging through OPM.gov.
      As for whether you should move….that really depends on what you want. Fed offers a pension in addition to 401k. 401k matching is good but not great. Health care is reasonably priced. Most departments do rigorous PIPs with lots of second chances so it’s hard to get fired (but it’s also hard to get promoted). And in a lot of fed jobs you can work your 40hrs and then disconnect the rest of the time. For a lot of people, those benefits are worth the low salaries and slow processes. But it depends on your situation and what you want.

      1. ronda*

        I think that the pension and retirement health benefits are the things you are likely not to find in private sector jobs. State and local govt may have them, and a small % of private sector. I did once interview with a railroad, they have pension and 401k and a special social security that you pay more into and pays you out more.

        But from my private sector career I had no pension and no retirement health benefits and I retired early by saving. (Obamacare is very easy to use for early retirees)

        But if you are unhappy in the job and the area you live in and want to move, govt job is likely not worth the economic benefits….. unless you are not able to save and really need an employer pension to secure your future.

        I heard about most of the govt benefits from folks posting on the boglehead forum. It seems to attract a number of govt retirees, so they might give better/specific advice.

    3. retired*

      State retiree. They have to change the state constitution to take away my pension. I have 2 friends who ended up careers as federal employees. They’ve put all their grandchildren through college or tech school. I like public service because I believe we do need certain services to be provided to everyone by competent people. I graduated from Stanford. My mother asked me why I wasn’t making as much as those who went into private industry. I said, “So you want your government to be run by people who can’t do anything else well?”

  121. Victoria, Please*

    For managers who have to schedule 10-20 people for shifts, any recommendations for scheduling software that helps you figure it out? Thanks!

  122. AnxiousPokemon*

    Does anyone have any tips on how to overcome some serious job application anxiety? I want to move out of my current company, but I freeze when I start browsing job postings. As soon as I read a few lines in, I feel like I just want to give up because I’m not qualified for anything. This is even happening when I look at entry level roles. For reference, I have about 10 years of experience in an IT related field.

    1. Diatryma*

      Jobsearching makes you hate yourself. That’s just a thing, like running a marathon will make your legs hurt the next day. If you run a marathon and your legs hurt the next day, you don’t assume it’s rheumatoid arthritis and panic. If you jobsearch and hate yourself, you should not assume it’s because you suck. It’s jobsearching. It does that.

      When possible, I apply for jobs on behalf of others– you know how women and people who aren’t white don’t always apply for stretch jobs? I say to myself, oh yes, I’m going to apply even though I don’t feel qualified just to normalize other people applying. I am doing this on behalf of others! Good job me!

      Make an I Am Awesome document, not the same as your resume, but saying a bunch of things that you are great at in terms of work. Forget formality. This is the ‘I once picked up a half-finished project when a coworker bailed and turned it around because I am 100% THE BEST’ time. Be silly if that’s what it takes to get you through saying good things about yourself.

      If you need it, find a therapist who can help you figure out how to be good to yourself during this process.

  123. SnowWhiteClaw*

    I’m sitting at my desk crying because we have to start wearing masks again on Monday.

    I’m not against wearing masks, but I have really painful dermatitis on my face that was just starting to resolve after months of topical treatments + antibiotics + lack of mask wearing.

    I’m sure this will make my skin worse. I am spending so much money on dermatology appointments and medications. I slather half of my face in diaper rash cream some days because the pain is so bad.

    Is there any type of accommodation I can ask for? I already sit 10+ feet away from everyone, don’t work with the public, and my coworkers are 99.5% vaccinated. We haven’t had a case in my building since March 2020. Do you have any recommendations for face masks that won’t hurt to wear so much?

    Any advice at all is appreciated.

    1. SG*

      As someone who has struggled with severe, recalcitrant dermatitis, I sympathize! What about a face shield instead of a mask? No direct contact with your facial skin, and a totally reasonable accommodation to request! You could always have a mask on hand for when you’re having a one-on-one conversations or other situations where it makes sense to be extra cautious.

    2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      It’s not as effective, but could you ask about using a face shield instead?

    3. OtterB*

      There are masks made especially for singers that have minimal contact with your face (so that when you inhale while you’re singing you don’t breathe in your mask). Don’t know if it would reduce the contact enough to help in your situation or not.

    4. TooTiredToThink*

      A friend really recommended ones made from bamboo fabric! Those seemed to be her go-tos. The ones she got were made by a company that specializes in making headcovers and other things for cancer patients; so the masks were also geared towards them.

    5. Observer*

      Oh, this is tough!

      Would it make sense to ask to work from home at least part of the time? That would reduce the amount of time you need to wear the mask.

    6. Orb*

      Oh! I have this same skin condition!! I can help! I always, always wear masks when I’m outside my home and I no longer have this dermatitis flaring up on my face.

      I don’t think masks are the cause alone. Oil is a huge trigger for this kind of dermatitis, so maybe cloth masks are holding your skin care products or your own facial oil against your skin and making it worse? From all the research I’ve dug through, there isn’t an obvious reason why a mask would contribute other than that. Which is why you should keep that skin clean and avoid adding any products, but I’ll elaborate more on that in a minute. Ask far as masks go, a couple months ago I started wearing those domed respirators from the hardware store just for efficacy reasons, and you should try that. They don’t touch anywhere on my face that you’d normally see that kind of dermatitis, except for right below your eyes (if you get it there). I have also seen little plastic domes you can attach to any old surgical mask to create space around your mouth, and I don’t think that should negatively impact how effective they are. It might even be better, since more space often means more of your breath is filtering through the mask and not leaking around the sides.

      As for how to get rid of it, stop putting skin care products on your face. Literally don’t put anything on your face. Products being put onto your skin, especially heavy ones and oils, are what cause this to happen. You’re gonna go, but it hurts there and is irritated, I have to put something on it! Do your best not to, and if you *must*, make sure it has no oils and is not occlusive. It will not feel great at first, you’ll have to grudgingly let your skin adjust to it. The less you put on the rashy area, the better. Those zinc diaper rash creams helped mine a bit before I got an Rx, but after a while I realized that the heavy occlusive ointment was prolonging it against the efforts of the antibiotics and the Rx topical. It went away completely once I stopped with the ointment.

      Wash your face. That might sound obvious but if you, say, use makeup wipes or micellar water or something, don’t. Just wash your face with a cleanser, no oil cleansing first! I got zinc soap to wash my face with, eventually switching to the terribly named Cetaphil Pro DermaControl Oil Removing Face Wash once it was more under control. It felt kinda drying at first but it’s less weird than the straight zinc bar soaps, in my personal opinion, and it does still have some zinc. Zinc does help, which is why the diaper cream can help. But the diaper cream is so, so heavy, that it’s not an extremely ideal delivery mechanism. Does the diaper cream make some people’s go away? Yep. But it clearly didn’t work that way for either of us, so find another way to put zinc on your skin that is not also a heavy ointment. I also take oral zinc, which I started long before I got this dermatitis, but I have heard anecdotal reports that it can help.

      As for Rx topicals, if your doctor came out the gate giving you topical steroids, maybe see someone else. That is commonly prescribed but also, when researched, has been pretty extensively indicated to make this kind of dermatitis worse in a lot of cases, so it’s not recommended. A lot of doctors still do it anyway because it’s a typical thing to try for skin conditions in general, and doing that first can indicate that your doc is maybe not that familiar with this kind of dermatitis. Oral antibiotics (I think usually tetracyclines, I got doxycycline) can help knock it out quickly in most people, but to keep it away you need to continue to not put anything on your face. You don’t want to be on oral antibiotics regularly, so topical metronidazole is what will help keep it gone. My skin looks perfectly clear now but I still put it on that area once a day, since I noticed a tiny bit of redness crept back when I stopped using it entirely. My doc says that’s a normal and fine way to use it.

      Mine wasn’t caused by masks, it was caused by me starting retinol and my skin getting dry so I started layering on lots of very moisturizing products… Blam, terrible rash. So naturally I put more soothing stuff on it, which just made it worse and worse. When I started looking into it, this is apparently an extremely common way that people start getting this kind of dermatitis. Either their skin is dry, or they’re getting some early signs of it, so they start laying on products to treat it, and it’s a positive feedback loop. They think people might be more or less prone to developing it in the first place, but then the more products you use the more likely you are to trigger it. The more products you use on your face, the more likely you are to have it. Use of oil-based products is also associated with an increased rate of having it.

      Good luck. I hope you get it to go the hell away!

    7. beach read*

      Could you get a temporary medical exemption from your doctor? Work from home until cleared?

    8. The Prettiest Curse*

      I cannot vouch for these as I haven’t tried them myself, but I’ve seen silk masks being recommended for people with skin conditions.

      1. Orb*

        That’s an interesting idea! My first impulse is to say that silk might be worse, but I don’t know that for sure. It seems maybe worth trying.

        The thing with this kind of dermatitis is that it’s worsened by there being oils on the skin. And I’m not sure about this, but I *think* the reason silk is usually nice on your skin and hair is because it absorbs the oils off them and then holds it against them more? It feels that way with my silk pillowcases, anyway. They seem to absorb everything on my hair and skin and feel oily to the touch after I’ve used them for a few days.

        That said, my skin doesn’t seem to be bothered by the silk pillowcases. So I wonder how it would do with a silk mask.

    9. MissDisplaced*

      I think there is something called a mask bracket that holds the mask a bit away from your face. I don’t know if that would help enough though.

      And I do sympathize. The backs of my ears get really itchy from the latex in the mask loops and that’s just from wearing the mask for a short time whilst shopping and stuff.

    10. LGC*

      Late, but…can you get a doctor’s note explaining your situation?

      Also, I’m just wondering, what kinds of masks were you wearing, and how tight is the fit? I know respirator-type masks are more prone to causing these sorts of issues, so if you were regularly wearing N95/KN95 masks, or if the fit was tight in general…that might be the cause of your issues.

  124. KarenJoy*

    I’m trying to help a department member come up with some scripts to use when another department member talks over her during meetings. There are established meeting norms that this second department member ignores and that issue is not addressed by leadership. Does anyone have any advice or any suggested scripts to use so that the one who is talked over can address this?

    1. banoffee pie*

      How about “I hadn’t quite finished”? Or s/he could just keep talking louder, that sometimes works! I know that’s a bit obvious, sorry :) It can be really hard to deal with this sort of thing without it getting awkward.

    2. unpleased*

      Are you and other colleagues supporting this person by saying things like, “Stacey was speaking just then” or “We want to hear what she’s saying. Let’s let her finish.”? In addition to helping her develop a way to muscle back into the conversation on her own, the talker-over may bring themselves to heel more often if they know other colleagues also find this troublesome and rude.

  125. I Messed Up*

    Ok, uh, I don’t know what to do and I may have made a huge mistake. End of 2019 I was job hunting through my network, and I’m realizing now, almost two years later, that I may have actually ghosted a connection who was looking to hire me.

    I was searching in my email for something totally unrelated to this a few days ago, and a thread from back then came up. This was someone I had interviewed with after being internally referred, and they + the team I’d be on were all excited to bring me on. But then the department reorged and hiring was put on hold. They later came back and said they were interested in finally bringing me on, we talked a little, and what I remembered happened was that at some point I never heard from them again and I wrote it off. Well, I looked at the last message just to refresh my memory of what had gone on with that, and… It looks like they did reply, then /I/ never replied again. I have absolutely no idea what happened, I can only guess that I hit the message notification by accident and essentially fat fingered it into a mark-as-read. That seems improbable but I can’t think of any other way I didn’t see it. It was marked as read when I found it in this search.

    The thing is, I have wished since then that this job had worked out, because it was very interesting work and the people there all seemed great. I feel like, at this point, there is no way I can pop back up and ask this person about their current openings without looking ridiculous. It’s been well over a year! At the same time, I had interviewed all the way to the offer stage and they had all seemed enthusiastic, so letting it go feels foolish.

    Any… Thoughts?

    1. WellRed*

      You could forward the email, eexplain what happen and apologize, but I wouldn’t ask about positions. At least this way they know what happened which might make you feel slightly better on that aspect of it.

      1. I Messed Up*

        Part of my problem is that I can’t figure out how to apologize for it given that I don’t know what happened. It seems evasive to just say I’m sorry I dropped the ball, and I’m afraid it will sound like I ghosted them on purpose and just regret it now.

        Then on the other hand I don’t like even admitting that I managed to screw up this badly. It’s not only not normal for me, I can’t even think of another time I’ve done something even close to this stupid. So there is a little part of me that thinks, eh, maybe let them think it was on purpose? That’s also stupid. I can’t believe this is a real thing I did, ugh.

        1. ronda*

          maybe

          I was cleaning out my old messages and noticed that I somehow overlooked your last reply and never responded.
          I am really disappointed that I missed this because I was very interested in learning more about that job.
          I apologize for not responding at the time. Thank you for the time you talked to me about job and I am sorry I missed your last reply.

          dont beat yourself up about it, just tell them what happened and if you see some other opportunities apply then.

        2. MadisonB*

          With Outlook and Gmail now having so many different inboxes on top of spam folders and even “archive” folders for Outlook, I don’t think it’s outlandish that you simply missed the email, and I don’t think it automatically speaks ill of you if this email got lost in that shuffle. It may be a white lie, but with the one or two emails I’ve missed in the last 5 or so years, I’ve just said that I saw the email while cleaning out my spam folder, apologized for missing it, and ended with “I hope you’re doing well and that we can connect in the future” (or whatever is appropriate). A lot of important emails have gone to my spam, so much so that I now regularly check spam for important emails.

          For whatever it’s worth, the other day, I had my phone under my pillow as I slept, I snoozed the alarm, somehow unlocked the phone, and by the time I woke up and looked at it, my work Outlook app was open and I had accidentally typed a bunch of random keyboard strokes AND filled in the “to” box with my boss’ name as I tossed/turned/snoozed. (…so not a morning person…) It didn’t send, thank goodness, but I checked all my folders to make sure nothing had gotten shuffled out of my inbox.

    2. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

      Yeah I would get back in touch and just be like, I found this email, I don’t know how I missed it at the time! And apologise and say you’re happy they did reply and sorry to have missed the opportunity.

      Then you’ve closed the loop, which will probably feel better, and if another opportunity comes up, they’ll know you might be interested.

      To put the mistake in perspective: emails do get lost entirely sometimes. So in that sense, they ought not to have assumed you’d seen it, anyway.

  126. Kay*

    I think I may have the one “boss + undergarments” story that is not terrible! I work in tourism, where being roommates with 1-3 coworkers is normal. So workplace norms are already weird. The other day, my boss came up to me, made sure we were private, and asked if I wanted to try some clothes (bras). She bought them for herself, but realized too late the style wouldn’t fit her. They were non-returnable. I tried them on at home later, they fit, neither of us mentioned it again. It was pretty cool, considering how expensive bras are.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Kewl. I don’t see the issue. It’s better if someone you know can use it or wants it before you donate.

    2. Camelid coordinator*

      It isn’t undergarments but I’ve given a shirt I ordered online to one of my reports. It was funny because she wore it Friday, and our new employee looked over at the two of us standing next to each other and commented on how much we matched. We confessed it was because I had picked out both shirts! A couple years ago I gave a dress to my boss. It may have been during the minute someone else was my boss, but, in any case, it didn’t fit me right, looks great on her, and was too much trouble to return. (I’ve calmed down on the online ordering since then.) Also, I’ve received a shirt from one of my reports so it is not like the clothing is flowing one way. We work in higher ed, in case that affects anyone’s opinion of our norms.

  127. Amy*

    If I had an interview early this afternoon, is Monday morning too late to send the post-interview follow-up note? I feel like it would be weird to email on the weekend. This is a quasi-internal interview (two orgs that are veeeery closely linked but technically separate entities, I work for one and the interview was with the other), so I am very aware of the only-super-urgent-emails-on-weekends culture at this org, and have worked with many of the interviewers extensively.

  128. sweat goblin*

    i asked for a raise back in January, and since then it’s been pushed back again and again and again–not the actual job duties, of course, or expectations that I start fulfilling those duties, just. you know. The actual title change and raise.

    I’ve been a little checked out at work because….well…it seems like the business doesn’t really care about my happiness or uh, explaining the promotion and raise process (they hadn’t figured it out until I asked). Last week I made a mistake and sent out the wrong link to RSVP to an event, which–generally speaking, given my track record at this place, the amount of extra stuff I’ve taken on, and my general demeanor and good rapport with everyone–I thought would be somewhat minor. I’m known for being very reliable and quick to acknowledge fault and as soon as I realized the mistake I set out to troubleshoot and get things set right.

    Except. Apparently. I didn’t acknowledge my mistake soon enough to an upper management coworker, and she is now extremely unhappy and questioning whether or not i am “ready” for promotion that require me to take on more responsibility (and ownership). Because. OF COURSE. This week is finally the time that my promotion/raise are getting kickstarted again. To be clear, it’s not that i didn’t take ACTION quickly enough, just that I didn’t reach out to her specifically soon enough to own up to it. I guess.

    like I said, I’m feeling a little checked out but this seems….so ridiculous to me. Am I out of line ? Should I have eaten humble pie immediately ????? Help me ask a manager open thread.

    1. banoffee pie*

      Sounds ridiculous and a bit of a reach, to threaten to rescind a raise for something like that. Could she be looking for an excuse to back out of giving you the raise to save money? Hope not for your sake!

  129. HRNewbie*

    This is a prickly situation that might need Alison’s mojo, but it has roots in the healthcare industry, so maybe someone in that field might know if I’m missing a relevant point. I am relatively new to the admin portion of a healthcare center. And the person who actually has the issue is a new coworker who started about a week after me as a staffing coordinator/assistant. I actually went for that position as well as the admin one, but they went with her (we’ll call her Leia) because they had one of those hidden wants that wasn’t in the job description, she’s a CNA they could pull to the floor when needed. But, here’s the thing. After an incident where they wanted to put her in close contact with an aggressive patient, she got a note from her OBGYN that restricted her from lifting too much or being around aggressive patients due to her pregnancy. Since then, they have apparently no use for a CNA that is on light duty, stripping her of her staffing duties when she rejected the idea of getting her OBGYN to lift the restrictions (as she’d rather have a healthy baby). Now she’s mostly helping/doing my job since I’ve been assisting the bosses with HR while we’re filling the HR position that just opened. They’ve basically had to move Leia to the admin department as the nursing director/assistant directors don’t want a CNA that won’t do everything they want without regards to health. She’s even had them trying to trip her up to get enough reason to fire her. Add in that a pregnant nurse actually quit because they wanted to move her from FT to PRN when she asked for one set day off each week to give her a chance to rest and avoid a second miscarriage… how much trouble are my bosses potentially in with EEOC? Isn’t this discrimination against pregnant people when they refuse to make even reasonable accommodations and demote/punish for not being willing to risk their babies’ health?

    1. Fulana del Tal*

      But isn’t moving her to an admin position from a clinical one a reasonable accommodations? Unfortunately a CNA is not can’t move/lift/transport patients is not needed, its a core duty.

      1. HRNewbie*

        That’s where they’re sitting at now, after a bunch of meetings. My thing is though, she’s not meant to be a CNA. She was hired for staffing coordinator which is an 8-5 shift M-F, not a 12 hr shift like the regular CNAs. She’s not supposed to be floor coverage, just help out if they need so it’s not a core duty of the staffing position (which is why I initially applied for it and I don’t have CNA licensing, it wasn’t in the job description on their website but they decided they’d prefer a CNA so they could use her as help so I instead got the lower paying receptionist position). But when she got the note for the restrictions, they took away the staffing portion of her job (which was mostly creating schedules, getting coverage, being on call if someone calls out and calling around to find coverage. Which is the part that she can do the easiest! Instead they moved her to scut work like wiping down handrails. Tried to get her to consider getting the restrictions lifted so she could still do full CNA work. Told her they didn’t have the budget to pay a CNA who could only do light duty work, maybe she could get unemployment. Tried to fire her thinking she had two other write ups by writing her up taking a 15 minute break to cry after basically trying to get her to quit her job so they could get rid of her (problem being she doesn’t have any other write ups so that still wasn’t reason to fire). Told her if she didn’t answer her personal cell on the weekend (her days off) that she’d get written up. They only backed off to having her cover the front desk when I was gone when her boyfriend threw the word lawyer at the boss when he was dropping her off for the day (which is not the most professional way for her to have that brought up , I know, but this poor girl is at her wit’s end and the nursing director side of the center won’t even talk to her at this point).

        1. HRNewbie*

          Though I have to admit, I’m hearing this from her side so maybe there are decisions being made that I’m not privy to, but everything I see stinks of discrimination of a protected class. I mean the other nurse asked for one day off a week (which is what PRN is for?) so she had a break in the week to catch her breath and they wanted to move her to strictly PRN instead of FT which would take away her benefits, including insurance. She just quit instead and she was one of our more reliable nurses too.

    2. RagingADHD*

      There’s a couple of things going on here.

      The first is that, as Fulana mentioned, a CNA who can’t do their core job functions is getting very reasonable accommodation by being put on desk duty. As is someone who doesn’t want to work a normal full time schedule being put on part time.

      The other is that neither of these women’s requests make sense as requirements of pregnancy. There is no medical reason why tending an aggressive patient, for example, would interfere with having a healthy baby. Nor is fixing a certain day off a useful precaution against miscarriage. Miscarriages are not caused by fatigue or schedule changes.

      If the administration is looking askance at these employees or demoting them, it sounds like they believe the employees are misusing the system. And, from over here, it sounds like those concerns are reasonable.

      Reasonable accommodation does not mean that the employee just gets to make up anything they want and pick and choose the parts of the job they prefer to do.

      Being a CNA is a really hard job! I have empathy, because I certainly couldn’t do it, pregnant or not.

      1. HRNewbie*

        If she was a CNA, I’d be forced to agree with you, but her position is staffing coordinator. And there’s apparently been a lot of stuff she’s dealt with from her bosses because of the restriction (see my reply to Fulana above). It makes sense if a CNA breaks their leg, they can’t do the work so it wouldn’t be pregnancy specific. But for a staffing coordinator, these restrictions aren’t much (and when I say aggressive, I mean there was an incident where they had her doing a one on one to watch a patient who ended up being transferred to a psych ward instead, she was mainly concerned because what if he struck her in her stomach?) Her job description lacked a CNA requirement, it was a bonus they got. She has no issues feeding, being an extra pair of hands, etc, but because she has restrictions from doing part of a full CNA position, they took away the stuff she WAS capable of like scheduling. It’s just a really tough situation and I’m just a bystander hoping that my bosses aren’t going to get themselves into trouble.

        1. Fulana del Tal*

          But job duties can change, like you stated her also being CNA probably was a factor her getting the position over you. And pregnancy or not, nobody wants to assaulted by an aggressive patient but they still need care. Like I stated a lot of the core duties CNA requires lifting/moving/bathing patients, if her note states she cannot do any that nor can even observe patient, to your employer she may not be able to do the job they hired her for.

        2. RagingADHD*

          Your friend took the job knowing the duties were expanded to include her being on-call for CNA duties. That was what she agreed to. She doesn’t then get to pick and choose which duties she likes. They are going to assign her where she’s needed.

          The hospital should certainly have security protocols for dealing with violent patients. But they aren’t special pregnant-employee protocols.

          If a patient is dangerous to one staff member, they’re dangerous to anybody, and the procedure should be the same across the board. And it sounds like she didn’t actually get hit? She was just worried about it?

          “I am scared that a patient might possibly hit me in exactly the wrong place to cause an extremely rare freak accident” is not a medical necessity, and if she is trying to paint it as such, I can certainly understand why management is concerned about giving her more responsibility.

          If a single blow to the stomach or having an irregular work schedule were serious risks to a pregnancy, then there would be no such thing as medical abortions. Indeed, the human race would have died out millenia ago.

          It sounds like your friends maybe have some anxiety problems they should get seen about, if they are so worried about their pregnancies that it’s compromising their ability to stay in work. If they are indeed high-risk and medically fragile for some reason, I’m not sure why they’d be upset about the accommodations offered.

          Everything you have said sounds like a disgruntled employee who doesn’t like their job. None of it sounds like any kind of discrimination or EEOC issue.

  130. banoffee pie*

    Hi all,
    I’m considering applying for the Open University this year (arts, not science) and was wondering if anyone has any experience with it? Would you recommend it? (I’m not school-leaver age…a bit older :)

  131. Tired Accountant*

    I just finished week 2 on the job at Company X. I knew there were red flags going in but I wanted to get out of my old dead end job. Company X has so many more problems that I couldn’t have imagined… so so bad.. people want to improve it but it is an up high fight. It would be a decent job if I could be part of the change but it’s in an industry that could also get hit hard if demand dips again. I received an interview request from Company Y from when I was actively looking over a month ago. I am interviewing Monday but do I tell them that I’ve started a new job already? I’m anticipating “why do you want to leave company X” but don’t want to mislead someone into thinking I’m still there. Anyone been in a similar scenario?

    1. Tired Accountant*

      Oops meant to say I’m anticipating being asked about why I want to leave the company I used to be at… let’s call it company Z

      1. MissDisplaced*

        You could say you left original Company Z for a new role but it fell through at the last minute, or wasn’t the right fit. Not a lie either.

    2. Anonymous Koala*

      I would absolutely not mention the company you’re at now. It’s been 2 weeks, there’s not much you can say about it, and leaving a job you had for 2-weeks off your resume is not a big deal.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      If it has only been 2 weeks at Company X, I would not mention it. You could always get by the end/start date by saying you took some personal time off as it was summer.

      If it goes longer, (I have had this happen at a new job I was at for about 6-7 weeks) then you will have to say that you left Company W and accepted work at Company X, but you found Company X was not a good fit and/or the work was not what they initially indicated, and that your interest when searching was really with Company Y all along and you are SO HAPPY they called you for an interview. This kind of thing happens much more often than you’d think! As long as you don’t do this often, companies understand that sometimes you needed to take a job to pay the bills, but it wasn’t your first choice. They also understand that some companies lie and make a Bait and Switch. Make Company Y believe they were your first choice! You will of course burn a bridge at Company X, but do you care?

  132. AcademiaNut*

    Shoe-wise, my favourite is fancy running-type shoes (ie, they don’t look like athletic shoes, but are still comfortable). At the moment, I’ve got a couple of pairs of cloth upper shoes that are patterned with Morris prints, that I’ve actually gotten compliments for. I had a pair of plaid New Balance at one point that were great. They’re comfortable, I can run for the bus in them, but they are a step up from battered white running shoes and look like more of a deliberate fashion choice.

    Top wise, I like tunic style tops in a fabric that drapes well and isn’t too thin. It’s more polished looking than a t-shirt, but still comfortable and practical.

    I live in a climate with hot humid summers, so in summer I tend to go for pants that are technically in the hiking/casual pant category with a very light fabric, but in more streamlined styles (ie, not baggy, no cargo pants). They’re light enough that I don’t spend the day in sweat soaked clothing, and come with adequate pockets.

  133. Texas*

    My grandfather is in the hospital and his doctors say he has probably a few days left to live. How do I tell my manager/training team that this is going on and if I get a call about his passing? I’m a new hire (this is my first post-grad job and I’m 3.5 months in) and people do take half-days with their PTO. Would it be appropriate to let my trainers know during my check-in meeting (I work remotely) that this is happening and ask that if I do get the call from my parents I could use PTO for the rest of that day? (I have around 5 days PTO accrued so far). I don’t want to make my trainers uncomfortable by bringing up personal things but it is affecting me and I want to be honest.

    1. Anonymous Koala*

      Yes, you can definitely let your trainers know and ask if you can use PTO for the rest of the day if you get a call. This is a very normal thing to let your supervisors know about and most bosses will be fine with letting you use unscheduled PTO for something like this. If you have doubts, you could let your boss know what’s going on and ask about the standard protocol for last minute PTO but I think you’ll be okay. I’m sorry about your grandfather.

    2. beach read*

      It may be beneficial to talk to your Mgr and let them know what is happening and that you will need to take time off in the near future with little-to-no advance warning.
      I’d leave it to them to work out the pay logistics. “How should I handle this time off in the payroll system?”
      Assure them you will keep them posted as best as possible.

      I’m so sorry about your Grandfather.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        Yes to this. Just be honest. Most companies do have some type of bereavement leave.

    3. TechWorker*

      Yes please talk to them! Some companies even have policies that mean you wouldn’t be expected to use PTO in this sort of situation too.

      2. ecnaseener*

        Yes, check your employee handbook if you have one to see about bereavement leave, or if you can’t find anything about it you can ask your boss.

  134. R*

    What’s the etiquette for applying to 2 jobs at the same org, in the same department? Like, at my last job I did both A and B, am good at both, and enjoy both equally. If an org has 2 positions listed where one job is only doing A, and one is only doing B, is it wrong to apply to both? I hate the idea of doing a coin toss and then ending up unlucky that the one I picked had a bunch of other qualified candidates, and the one I didn’t apply to I’d have had a better chance at. But for some reason it’s so hard to get hiring managers to accept “I like both of these things and would be very happy to do either of them at your organization.”

  135. DN*

    Similar to Ask a Manager, is there another blog that offers relationship advice? As in people writing in with a specific query and someone responding with good logical answers. Not just saying work it out, or merely call it quits.. Thanks.

        1. photon*

          Yeah, I’m bummed about closed comments too, though I can understand why she wouldn’t want to moderate them. CA and AAM have done joint columns before, though, so it seemed like a good rec for OP.

          I saw your comment on Dear Wendy, I’ll have to check that out!

  136. Interviews At Work*

    Doing a video interview for another job from my private office at my current job: how bad of an idea is this?

    The interview will only be 45 minutes, so I plan to take my lunch then so the time is unpaid. I don’t love the idea of interviewing at work, but I don’t think there’s a way around it other than taking time off, which I can’t do that particular day. If I was still WFH I wouldn’t feel so weird about it, but we’ve been back in the office since July (part of the reason I’m searching!).

    Any thoughts or advice is super welcome!

    1. Jin K*

      Can you guarantee you won’t be interrupted by colleagues or managers at your current workplace? Can you be absolutely certain that the interview will run to time, and won’t start late or overrun the 45 minute window? Will it be apparent to your interviewers that you are in your current workplace? How will these things affect your chances with the new job should any of them happen? How would getting caught interviewing on the premises go over with your current workplace?

      If you have any possible alternative, I would do whatever you can to do the interview somewhere else. Call in sick that day if you have to. Have a medical appointment you need to take the morning or afternoon off for. It will be safer and more professional all around.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Are you planning to use your work equipment, such as your laptop?
      I would not. Most companies will have visibility to Teams or Zoom so I don’t recommend it.

      That being said, if you have access to a very private office or phone room where you are assured no one will barge in or interrupt, and IF you have no other choice that day, you can probably get away with it once or twice. Technically, it’s the same as you going out to lunch… and what you do with your lunch hour is your business.

      I have done this before the Pandemic, but we had some small private phone rooms you could book. Just make sure that if you use your work laptop, that the meeting link goes through the browser not your work Teams/Zoom, etc. Even so, you are taking a chance your company IT might see it (probably not as much nowadays with video calls being more common) but it is a risk.

  137. Not how I thought that'd go*

    The junior member of a team was offered the position I wanted in front of me, when he eventually acknowledged I would be a better fit, the position offered was 50% of the expected work when I had been groomed for doing ALL of the work and had been expecting to do nearly 90%. The person leaving the position “LP” said he has the utmost confidence in my abilities and never would have thought of “Junior” taking over, so this really felt like a gut punch.

    I don’t intend to tell LP that Junior was considered over me, just like I don’t intend to tell LP that nearly HALF of the position he’s been training me for will be eliminated because the work is unnecessary. LP’s status in the company allowed him to maintain a LOT of outdated procedures as I truthfully had been planning on making my own mark on the position and eliminating a few repetitive things.

    Yet I’m truly sad at the change in what I thought was sorta of the “pivotal” moment of my career, but sort of relieved to not leave everything I used to do? I’m hurt that I wasn’t considered for the position, that the manager had no clue of my role in the organization because everyone else thought I was already nearly promised the position.

    I was proud of myself for not really reacting when the position was offered to Junior, yet maybe I should have? Junior himself thought I was going to be taking over! I’m hurt he didn’t respond quicker to the offer in my defense as I thought he really didn’t want the position. There’s no real perks for accepting the position either. I’m trying to be happy but I can’t help but feel sad.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I hope you are urgently looking for another job.
      Was “Junior” and “LP” both men and you are female? If not LP, who exactly offered the position to Junior?

      1. Not how I thought that'd go*

        LP’s boss offered the job to Junior. Sorry, I rewrote this like 8 times trying to be brief. You guessed right on the genders too, but I’m just not sure if this is the reason why I end this job. I don’t have much of a resume. A friend of mine commented “the days drag on, but the years FLY” and I haven’t heard a truer statement this week.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          It doesn’t have to be the dealbreaker for you, but something similar happened to me about 1.5 years ago and that motivated me to look around. Then earlier this year something similar *again* happened and now I’m waiting on the formal offer for another job, which I plan to accept. I’m tired of the only people not willing to give me recognition or respect are the few who have power over promotions and opportunities, and I definitely know that feeling of trying to be content with my work as it is but can’t shake the sad. I’ve decided that for me, I need to be working somewhere else.

        2. MissDisplaced*

          I think the one thing you can take away from this company is that you and your hard work is not being valued.

          I’m sorry this happened to you. Maybe the company has other positive qualities or benefits that make up for that, IDK, but if it were me I would begin looking.

  138. MissDisplaced*

    Probably late for people to see this but I have a pandemic related jobs question.

    Obviously, there were a lot of layoffs due to the Pandemic in 2020-2021. But I also see a lot of jobs being posted. My question is why won’t companies who laid off workers due to the Pandemic, hire some of those employees back? Especially, if they truly ARE having trouble filling open roles as they claim they are. Wouldn’t you try to call back your layoffs first?

    1. Not how I thought that'd go*

      From what I’ve heard it’s a variety of reasons: the layoffs are making more money via unemployment/aid (which I think is somewhat illegal to use if the company calls you back but I’m not sure how well that’s tracked), the layoffs are taking this time to look for a better job and rather not go back, the layoffs have already found a new job because they NEEDED a job, or the companies are using this opportunity to not call back troublesome layoffs.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I was recalled from a previous layoff. We have a union that put this recall structure in place and my company makes use of it all the time (we have many layoff/recall cycles). More places should do this as it makes sense to bring back people who already know the job if they’re still available, but I would guess it’s highly dependent on the industry, job levels, and union involvement.

      I know that for us, if you turn down a recall, you are off the list and would have to reapply to any other job there later on. People who quit (union or not) aren’t eligible for recall but it’s not a do not rehire situation, you can reapply if you want to.

      1. MissDisplaced*

        The benefits of a union I suppose.

        At my very large company they laid off a large number (several hundred) of technical and sales employees. Things are picking up and they’re hiring again. But they are not hiring back any of those people. This makes no sense as those people are trained. I know some of them are still unemployed, and would go back if called. I’ve heard there is a no-rehire policy though.

    3. fhqwhgads*

      Some are. Of those that aren’t that I know of personally, it’s because the jobs they’re hiring for now aren’t the jobs they laid off. They’re expanding again, but in the areas they didn’t have to lay off in the first place. The roles they let go of are still gone, for now. In other cases, those specific employees have already moved on to something else. They’re not calling people they know have new jobs, but if those people reapplied to come back they’d definitely be considered.

  139. DT-C*

    Just wanted to share something that continues to surprise me as someone who is approaching their third year in healthcare or healthcare-adjacent fields, and comes from a family of healthcare workers: HIPAA is NOT taken as seriously as you think it is. Especially when it comes to transferring files electronically.

    Also, most HIPAA trainings I’ve taken do not cover the vast majority of everything in HIPAA, and most people skip through them and then answer the embarrassingly easy questions at the end. (And, my little pet peeve: it’s HIPAA as in the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, not HIPPA as in you are feminizing the word hippo with caps lock on.)

    Also, contrary to popular belief, HIPAA doesn’t mean that healthcare workers can’t talk about their patients! My mom is a nurse and she talks about her patients all the time, and only broke HIPAA (around me) twice to my knowledge. You just can’t say anything about the patients that could lead to somebody identifying them. So, talking about your day is totally okay.

  140. Flowery Times*

    Check out the How… series (John Hopkins Press), like How to Run a College for the basics on university administration. For more student-centered things, try How college affects students: 21st century evidence that higher education works (3rd ed.). Also, Race on Campus by Julie Park. Good luck!

  141. littlechatbotthatcould*

    Looking to pick this community’s brain: I’m applying to an internship, and the application states that they would prefer someone who can work full-time, but that this is open to discussion. I’m only available part-time, but otherwise meet all of their requirements. When should I bring this up – is it worth mentioning in a cover letter, or am I better off waiting for the interview stage (if I make it that far)?

Comments are closed.