our head of security took upskirt photos of an intern

by Alison Green on October 13, 2021

A reader writes:

Curious to hear your take on a situation that came up a long time ago at a previous workplace. Shortly out of college, I got a job working for a nonprofit cultural institution that had a fair share of unpaid interns working across the organization.

Our head of security had a reputation for being gross/inappropriate around women at the company, so much so that my female supervisor and head of my department both took me aside my first week to quietly warn me to “watch out for myself” around him. As this was an organization that was often open to the public, this guy managed a team of security guards as well as a fairly sophisticated video security system throughout the building/grounds. That fact was always at the back of my mind whenever I was working alone early or late — this guy that multiple female colleagues had warned me about had the ability to surveil me as I sat at my desk — which, I realize, sounds dramatic — but just wait.

One day, a teammate was in the empty lobby a few feet from the head of security and his second-in-command. An intern wearing a skirt was hanging up signs along the stairwell above, and the head of security holds out his phone with the back of it facing upwards toward the stairwell when the unmistakable click of his phone’s camera rang through the lobby loud enough for his second-in-command and my colleague to hear it and look at each other. He was taking upskirt photos of an intern and was caught in the act.

Both my teammate and the member of the security team who witnessed the event went to our head of HR to report what they had seen, and the company did … absolutely nothing. Possibly he was spoken to (I can’t say for sure), but years later the guy still has his job running the security department at the organization.

Is there any universe where retaining this guy is an okay move? Aren’t upskirt photos in the workplace with MULTIPLE witnesses grounds for an automatic fire? What gives? And what could I and/or a group of my coworkers have done to demand that this lech get canned?

WTF.

YES, this should have been an automatic firing. NO, there is no universe where retaining this guy was okay.

Of course, that assumes that this really was what it looks like — that he was indeed taking upskirt photos and not just, I don’t know, photographing the elegantly carved staircase bannisters or something, a fact that could have been easily verified by demanding to see his phone (and firing him if he refused to show the photo he’d just taken).

This would be unacceptable for anyone, but he was the head of security — a person with special access in a job that requires a high degree of trust. There should be nowhere in the cosmos where “oh, we’ll give him a warning and then set him loose among employees again” is considered a reasonable response.

That your company did nothing is … well, it’s maybe what we should expect from a company that had already continued to employ a head of security who was so known to be gross around women that multiple members of your management team warned you about him.

Whatever led to him still being around despite those complaints (hint: deeply entrenched sexism and a dismissal of women) is the same thing responsible for them keeping him on after the photo incident.

As for what you and your coworkers could have done: in theory a group of you could have demanded further action be taken. What that could have looked like in practice would depend on what you were willing to do — anything from making loud demands within the organization to being willing to quit over it to going to your board of directors to going to the media or even to funders. Sometimes those things work! Sometimes they don’t. They work more often now, but since this was years ago, it might not have worked then.

Is he still there? If so, you and your old colleagues might consider writing to the board now and sharing your experiences with him.

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{ 210 comments }

{ 210 comments… read them below }

  2. You get a pen and you get a pen*

    DEFINITELY go to the Board with this. They absolutely need to know about the behavior as well as the fact Leadership did nothing about it when reported. I doubt there is a Board out there that wants this type of scandal to surface on their watch.

    1. KoiFeeder*

      Yeah, there’s no good scenario for this.

      The head of security has upskirt photos of interns on his private phone/computer? Bad press.
      The head of security has upskirt photos of interns uploaded to a cloud photo saving service? Bad press.
      The head of security has upskirt photos of interns on his work phone/computer? That’s not just bad press, that’s damaging to the company.
      The head of security has upskirt photos of interns and is distributing them? That might be enough to ruin the nonprofit, especially if he’s selling them for money.

      1. Anonymous Hippo*

        The fact that they are knowingly continuing to employee a sexual predator to the extent that management has to warn new female employees seems like it would be a serious legal problem as well.

        1. Anti anti-tattoo Carol*

          You’d think :/ non profit boards can be horrendous, at least in the museum world. There are a lot of really shady folks who serve on the boards of prominent museums, some of whom are famously awful.

          I was sexually harassed, reported it, and my workplace… just made excuses. Even if I’d gone public, little would’ve happened. Museums can weather bad PR. See: Philadelphia Museum of Art, Erie Art Museum. There are a lot of cover ups in the art world, and if a predator is ousted, they just tend to move on.

          1. DataGirl*

            Very true. I worked for a non-profit where multiple women were sexually harassed by a guy in IT- nothing was ever done. He would get ‘talked to’ and told to leave whatever woman had reported it alone- so he just moved on to the next woman. Thankfully he retired a while back but it still burns me up that an organization that is supposed to be so virtuous just excused such behavior.

          2. KoiFeeder*

            I do agree that, regrettably, the first two are very likely to result only in a ceremonial and meaningless punishment even though he’s a known creep. He might actually experience consequences on the third. But “security guard at well-known museum is selling upskirt photos of interns and was reported for being a known creep on multiple occasions” seems like it should be one of those things that is an institution-killer no matter how good the nonprofit is at weathering pr storms. I remember during one of the upticks in colleges being shamed for sexual assault scandals, the ones where money was involved (selling videos of the assault, for example) tended to result in the college experiencing worse consequences than when it wasn’t.

            1. Anti anti-tattoo Carol*

              YES. THAT. A museum is RACIST ON MAIN and it’s still running strong. I think a large part is because the general museum-going public isn’t going to be like, “I’m boycotting because they posted a racist job ad.” They’ll say “oh, that sucks. I’m still going so I can see my favorite painting.” And that’s IF they even hear about it. A lot of museum scandal doesn’t make it far outside of the industry. Some does, but most is really via whisper network and a few specific reporters.

            2. 30 Years in the Biz*

              Wow! Just read up on this. Unbelievable but believable in this day and age. Wouldn’t it be great if a bolt of lightening would just come down and strike these people when they do stuff like this? There’s be a lot fewer racists, harassers, etc. in this world.

          4. TiniLizzie*

            One of our biggest donors has had multiple accusations of sexual harassment made against him. The Board and Director still love him and are naming the new capital project after him. I hate it.

            1. Anti anti-tattoo Carol*

              They’ll lay half the staff off over shaky ticket sales, but retain the most expensive union-busting lawyers and take money from known harassers. They’re not recession proof, but are somehow entirely scandal proof. Solidarity, my fellow museum worker.

          5. CoveredInBees*

            Granted that my experiences with this were a bit before MeToo, but it is amazing how little the press would probably care about this. I have definitely seen people talk about the harassment of young women with a wink and a nudge. Not only was poor Monica Lewinsky made into a national punchline, there are plenty of people who still talk about her that way.

            I agree with Anti anti-tattoo Carol that people make amazing rebounds even when they’ve been fired in order to keep everything quiet. The Board might see not firing the security head as keeping things quiet and preserving their reputation.

      2. Sleeping Late Every Day*

        Well, at the not-for-profit where I worked, there was a senior security person who was a real creeper. But any complaints were met with “Oh, that’s how Fred is, he’s just fooling around.” And the people who complained got the reputation of being difficult. And not a damn thing ever changed.

      3. Why isn't it Friday?*

        Maybe bad press IS the answer. If an organization is doing absolutely nothing about a confirmed predator like this, I would think that’s the time to make an anonymous tip to a local newspaper. What if he had done something worse than upskirting (which is bad enough)?

        1. Candi*

          There aren’t that many local newspapers left. +90% of that kind of media is owned by one of the conglomerates. They buy up the local newspapers that do well to get the profit, then change them beyond all recognition.

          The places where the independents still live are often not the places where you have the big museums -at most, you have little very local history ones.

  3. Hills to Die on*

    I will not lose my faith in humanity.
    I will not lose my faith in humanity.
    I will not lose my faith in humanity.
    But this story does not help. :/

      1. EmbracesTrees*

        Sadly, this is actually a really important lesson (initially typed that as “lesion” which seems … disgustingly appropriate somehow) for most young women to learn upon joining the workforce.

        Not because it’s okay, of course but because, despite the progress we’ve made culturally, there is still SO MUCH blatant and covert sexism in the workplace. I actually think it’s better for young people to be aware so that they aren’t so shocked they aren’t prepared to respond. … and I am sick at even typing this.

        1. NotRealAnonForThis*

          Agreed.

          I can’t be the only woman who came out of university without an understanding of “this is how the workforce actually functions because of blatant and covert sexism…and fixing its going to be an uphill battle”. Because we *should not* have to come out of university understanding that there is still so much sexism in the workplace and you’re going to have to pick your battles.

          1. UKDancer*

            Nope. I joined the workforce 20 years ago and was warned in my first job by the older women which men were safe and which ones weren’t. I was warned which ones were gropers and who couldn’t be trusted. It has got better in some ways but there’s still a reluctance in a lot of places to report inappropriate behaviour for fear of negative repercussions.

            1. banoffee pie*

              I learned this sad lesson in school but thought maybe the adult world would be better. It is for some people (this is not scientific reasoning coming now btw) because some workplaces might be better-run, or might be small enough not to have any predators on staff. But schools are so big and have so many students that there are bound to be a few bad apples in them all.

            2. CoveredInBees*

              It is the same reasoning used for giving light sentences to the perpetrators of sexual assault: They don’t want to jeopardize his future. Women’s dignity and security are entirely disposable when balanced against the perpetrator’s desire to lead a successful life in the field of their choosing because of an action he choose to take.

        2. Camellia*

          I am 66 years old, and I thought my generation would be the one to change this. Unfortunately, my daughter is 37 years old and is still dealing with it. I have no hopes that my 9 year old granddaughter, when the time comes, won’t be having to deal with the same things…

          1. NotRealAnonForThis*

            If for no reason than my own single digit aged daughter being willing to stick her neck out to burn down the patriarchy in a school setting, I do have some crumb of hope that my daughter and your granddaughter will be okay.

            I’m the same generation as your daughter. The generation to two after me has zero effs left for sexism and are not afraid to burn it all down. I’ve been fighting it long enough that, well, I’ve got matches.

            1. LouAnn*

              Porn and purity culture have both derailed many of the advances we made. Either women are willing to do anything you want, anytime! Or we are scary bags of sin to be avoided. Real sex education and elimination of tax free status for churches, and enforcing the obscenity laws we aleady have, would help a lot.

            2. quill*

              My mom went scorched earth on two separate principals who wouldn’t do anything to make boys keep their hands to themselves. This was 20+ years ago, and what I hope is that the reason we hear it so much more these days is because people are dragging the corruption out into the light and burning it.

        3. Ann Knope*

          Hah. My first in my industry internship I reported my supervisor for being a creep, after I left (he continued to email me after I left and there was one straw too many) and then in my first real with-benefits job my boss was a different kind of boundary crosser – I don’t think I learned from the first experience. They felt very different. it might have helped did someone to lay it out before I experienced any of it. “you will likely experience this kind of dude. it will not be your fault. You won’t know what to do. There is no obvious answer of what to do because the whole system is broken. You may not get support even though you deserve it and should have. You may get support that you didn’t realize you’d get once you do report it but that doesn’t mean it’s your fault for not reporting it sooner. Do what you need to to survive and try not to internalize any of it as your fault. This is trauma, you will probably need a therapist to help sort it out. I love you and I’m sorry”

          Taking name suggestions for this college life skills class shorter than “this is how the world presently works, dear God this is depressing but if by providing this pubic service I prevent even one woman from second guessing herself it will have been worth it”

          1. Merci Dee*

            Here’s a name suggestion for you . . . “Sh!t They Didn’t Teach Your Mama In College, But Should Have.”

        4. Observer*

          I actually think it’s better for young people to be aware so that they aren’t so shocked they aren’t prepared to respond. … and I am sick at even typing this.

          This 100%

      3. Ella*

        He should be in prison, I’m sorry you had to deal with that culture and the intern had that experience. I wish women didn’t have to hold men accountable, they should be using their privilege to do that to each other.

    3. __ID__*

      If it makes you feel any better….I work for a large global company headquartered in the US. We are in the Fortune Top 100 – and that POS would be perp-walked out the door and into a police car. I’m not just saying this – I work in the department that investigates employees who break the rules. And we’ve seen it happen. So don’t lose all hope in humanity!

      It is ironic when I hear people bash “big corporations” and then I see this craziness at a non-profit that’s supposed to make the world a slighter better place…

  4. EPLawyer*

    Yeah if you have to be warned ABOUT THE HEAD OF SECURITY then they are not going to care he is taking upskirt photos. The guy should have been gone BEFORE it got to the point of warning women to be careful around him.

    If they had just FIRED HIM there would have been no need to warn anyone. So much easier all around. And its not like it is hard to replace security guards. This guy was NOT so vital to the functioning of the organization that it would have withered and died without him. Or you know have everything stolen in sight.
    But the Org chose keeping him over the safety of LITERALLY EVERY WOMAN WHO WALKED INTO THE BUILDING. Which does not sound very secure to me.

    1. The Original K.*

      Yeah, if someone is such a creep that management warns staff that he’s a creep as a matter of course, rather than firing him, it’s sadly not surprising that they … don’t fire him, even for something this egregious. Horrible but not surprising. He does this stuff because he can – because he does it, everyone knows he does it, and he doesn’t face consequences.

      1. banoffee pie*

        Have to love the irony that people have to be warned about a head of security!! Isn’t his entire job meant to be protecting people?

        1. Jan*

          We just had a case in the UK where a Metropolitan (London) police officer has been jailed for life for raping and murdering a young woman under the pretence of arresting her. That’s bad enough but apparently his work colleagues nicknamed him the Rapist due to his creepy behaviour towards female colleagues, as well as previous for indecent exposure, and racist, sexist and homophobic WhatsApp messages with other officers. This head of security sounds horribly similar and so does the environment that enables him.

      2. tangerineRose*

        I wonder if the managers who were doing the warning had any authority to fire him. I’d guess they didn’t. I hope they didn’t, anyway.

    2. Artemesia*

      The thing that makes that incredibly worse than the usual sexism in the workplace is that this is the guy with the keys to all the doors and the surveillance tools to harass whomever he pleases. This is precisely the role where you need someone you can trust.

    3. Deb*

      It makes me wonder if he has pictures of things that they don’t want released. Because someone who would take pics like that would also use them for blackmail.

    4. Nina Bee*

      he’d just have gone somewhere else and done similar things probably. This should be a crime (is it in the country where OP is?) and he should be charged/in jail. Ugh. Reminds me of the horrific Jennifer Morey survival storey.

  5. AnonEMoose*

    Gross. For what it’s worth, this very likely would have gotten the guy banned from at least one volunteer-run event I’m involved with…even if his position wasn’t security related. Definitely take it to the Board; they need to know about this classic “missing stair” scenario, BEFORE someone gets hurt, because my suspicion is that guys like this are likely to escalate at some point if not stopped.

  6. OP*

    OP here – yes, he’s still there. Executive Director and Head of HR – both female – which was certainly a cherry on top of a shit sundae of a situation.

      1. ArtK*

        Very true. The female head of HR at Pixar is regarded as one of John Lasseter’s main protectors. This in a place where the women banded together to ensure that nobody was with him by herself.

        1. ArtK*

          Follow-up: She left the company under a cloud. She was also involved in some serious anti-trust activity around fixing animators’ salaries across multiple companies.

      2. Former Young Lady*

        But bringing this up is often a fig-leaf. “See? We can’t possibly expect men to respect women until literally every woman in the world respects other women!”

        If men didn’t accept internalized misogyny as cut-rate currency, women wouldn’t spend it.

        Fight the real enemy.

      3. Splendid Colors*

        When my last apartment building had TWO male tenants who should’ve been evicted for sexual misconduct, all the management and staff were women. The only man on the payroll was the maintenance guy (who seemed to disapprove of the issues but had zero authority to do anything).

    4. deesse877*

      As others have noted, women are often the enforcers, particularly when the offense is against very young women.

    5. Person Of Interest*

      If I were you, I’d look for a local media outlet interested in hearing this story. I wouldn’t even bother with the board. The fact that they knew this guy was a creep to the point they WARN NEW FEMALE EMPLOYEES about him, and yet still employee him, points to such gross mismanagement from the top down that others need a warning to avoid working at this place.

      1. Properlike*

        True. Especially if there are any written records or proof or warnings. Chicago Park District has had an ongoing scandal from female life guards being harrassed by supervisors.

    6. Typing All The Time*

      I feel for the intern. Can she say something to her academic advisor? Might be able to put some heat on them but sadly you might lose her and/or future interns.

  7. Malarkey01*

    You can also file a police report (not this late but at the time). This is overlooked sometimes in sexual assault cases (which upskirt photos fall under in many jurisdictions). Sometimes when it happens in the workplace people think HR or management is their only recourse but you can absolutely report crimes like this regardless if they occur at work/school/private home or business.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Yes, and on the same train of thought did the victim make a formal sexual harassment complaint or were the onlookers the only ones to complain? If she did, that’s a whole other layer of get a lawyer/the police involved if HR still did nothing.

        2. Phony Genius*

          If that was somehow the case, when and how should she be told? Is it OK to see this happen and report it, but not tell the victim?

          1. UKDancer*

            No it’s not OK not to tell the victim. Someone (probably HR) should have told her that she had been upskirted. She could then decide what action to take. If you’re the victim of a crime (regardless of whether it’s a specific offence) you should be told as much.

            2. Observer*

              You really think HR would take 2 seconds to do ANYTHING? Clearly, as far as HR is concerned this is a total nothing-burger. OP was just being “too sensitive”. And the Intern was the one who was at fault because she should have made sure that she was not wearing a dress when she was doing this work or while she was around this guy.

              I know that it’s hard to believe that people think this way, but …. I really think that what I just described is a best case description of how HR there thinks.

          2. Student*

            No, it is not okay to see this happen but not tell the victim.

            There are only two reasons someone would opt not to tell the victim about this:
            (1) The person who saw it doesn’t want to have an uncomfortable conversation about a bad thing and would rather slink away.
            (2) The person who saw it thinks they should impose their own judgement on how to address the issue on the victim, by taking away her opportunity to make choices for herself.

            Both of those are terrible reasons! The victim’s safety at work and legal entitlement to a workplace free from sexual harassment trumps the observer’s mild discomfort in discussing the incident for (1). For (2), the victim is the person who should get to make the most important decisions in how she addresses it, and trying to take away her right to do so is not in her best interest and self-serving to the observer.

            When should she be told – at the first safe opportunity to do so, meaning not in front of the guy who just took an upskirt photo of her, but within like 15 minutes of it happening.

            How should she be told – describe the facts first. Offer to put it in writing for her, to address as she sees fit. Names, times, location. Try to keep your own emotions out of it, except maybe a “this is clearly not at all acceptable” vibe (meaning, don’t make this about how you feel about it as an observer; validate the fact that what you saw was wrong, and then validate the victim’s emotions whatever they are; it’s understandable for you to be upset but your job is to deal with that emotion on your own later, you should not try to get the victim to make you feel better about the bad thing you just saw that happened to her).

    2. Cait*

      Yes! This company knowingly continued to employ a man who they knew was a predator and, instead of dealing with him appropriately, decided to take the victim-blaming route and warn all the women to just “watch out for yourself”. Not even “watch out for HIM”… “watch out for YOURSELF.”
      If this company hasn’t faced backlash for continuing to employ this man, despite knowing his history of sexual harassment and possible assault, they will soon. And they deserve it. OP, if you can go to the police and file a report (and get others to do so with you), you’d be doing the right thing. No one else should have to face further assault by this man while the company sweeps it under the rug.

      1. Artemesia*

        If I am working late in my office how do I ‘watch myself’ and protect myself from the guy with cameras everywhere and the keys to all the doors.

    3. Magenta Sky*

      It’s criminal now, but “a long time ago” it was a lot less so most places. Nowadays, the guy’d be lucky to get out of the building without injury.

      1. Wants Green Things*

        Less than half of states in the US have specific laws against “upskirting.” Some individual cities might have a law, but otherwise, it’s a very, very grey area. Like, to the extent that it might not count as a sexual crime because there’s no “reasonable expectation of privacy.”

        1. Observer*

          Like, to the extent that it might not count as a sexual crime because there’s no “reasonable expectation of privacy.”

          That’s not true. Yes, it may not be considered a crime. But it’s absolutely not the case that there is not “reasonable expectation of privacy.” It’s just that breaching someone’s privacy is generally not considered a crime.

          It’s like putting cameras in bathrooms, even public ones. It’s considered totally out of bounds because there definitely IS a reasonable expectation of privacy.

        2. Splendid Colors*

          There’s no “reasonable expectation of privacy” as far as things like the intern’s face or what slogans she might wear on T-shirts or buttons. But I’m pretty sure there’s a “reasonable expectation” that parts of your body your clothes are covering when you look at someone from eye level, desk level, etc. are private. Taking cleavage pics with ceiling-mounted security cameras would be gross too.

          1. Covered in Bees*

            Gross, yes. However, they’re have been court cases about it declaring upskirt photos not a criminal act. This is why any legislation about them exists at all.

    5. Junior Assistant Peon*

      Even if the cops decide that what he did wasn’t technically illegal in their state, police involvement would force management to act. It sounds like they know about this guy, but prefer to keep the problem swept under the rug.

      1. banoffee pie*

        Upskirting only became illegal in 2019 in the UK. And somehow I imagine that even if you went to the police you’d hear ‘is it really that big of a deal? do you really want to ruin his life over this? blah blah.’ Imagine if you just said ‘YES!’
        Why are people so sure that these ‘smaller’ offences won’t lead to something bigger? Look at what just happened in the Sarah Everard case. If you aren’t familiar with it, a policeman fraudulently arrested a woman for breaching covid regulations (which the police have never been allowed to do here) and drove her from London to Kent. Then he raped and murdered her. It transpired he’d been accused of flashing multiple times and had been nicknamed ‘the rapist’ by colleagues. He’s just been given a full life sentence but it’s a bit late. They should have stopped him after the flashing.

        1. Emma2*

          This. One of the women flashed by the murderer was essentially laughed out of the station when she reported it. She was not the last woman he flashed and not the only one who reported it, but no one cared.
          The UK police have, however, come up with a new strategy for women – if a man shows you his police credentials and tries to detain you, and you are suspicious about the situation, they recommend you flag down a passing bus… (no, I have no idea either how this would work or what you are supposed to do if no bus conveniently passes as you are being arrested or kidnapped by one of their officers). Because clearly women should find a way to solve these problems rather than the people in charge doing something when sexual offences are reported and before they escalate to murder. Women are not listened to. Nothing is done when women report. It is infuriating.
          The idea that it would be worth reporting up skirting to the police in the UK at this point is laughable.

          1. banoffee pie*

            Thanks for reminding me about the bus thing. I should have mentioned it but rage must have made it slip my memory. Is a bus driver even allowed to defy the cops? Who knows? Whoever suggested it obviously didn’t care either.

            1. Virginia Plain*

              I’d not heard about the bus thing but would guess that it’s not with the idea that the bus driver would challenge the officer but that buses have cctv cameras covering both doors and pointing outwards, so anyone acting nefariously would be on camera (not to mention a potential bus load of human witnesses, and the view from the top deck of a bus can be excellent) and so would think better of it and beat a retreat. So a deterrent may have been the idea there.

          2. London Calling*

            The bus idea was rightly and widely derided as a) useless (some places in the UK have one bus a week) and b) yet again putting the onus on women to take action to protect themselves instead of oh, I don’t know, the police tightening up their recruitment procedures and dealing with the predators they already employ (2,000 police last year were accused of sexual misconduct, including rape, in the UK, and that, presumably, is just the ones who were caught)

            The latest is a sort of cyber chaperone on the national telephone network. Say where you are going and when you are due back and if you don’t report in on getting home, it alerts the police to look for you. The problem with that, of course, is that Sarah Everard’s killer WAS the police.

  8. Butterfly Counter*

    I remember this coming up under scrutiny with the law back in the day and it was decided that upskirt photos were legal in most states unless they were taken “behind closed doors” (not somewhere understood to be public). Basically, it is the whole, “she’s asking for it if she dresses like that” defense.

    I wondered if they looked at the law and decided that since it wasn’t illegal, they couldn’t fire him. (Never mind that there are a number of things that aren’t illegal that you are justified in firing someone for…)

    1. Properlike*

      Even if it’s “not illegal”, can’t imagine the nonprofit would want it getting out they keep this guy employed.

    2. LCH*

      wow, did not know it wasn’t illegal throughout the US. surprised to discover TX is one of the states that went out and made a law against.

      1. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

        Massachusetts has a similar law – which holds the record for initiation/passing both houses/on the governor’s desk and signed – three days!

        They caught a guy taking upskirt photos on one of the more traveled subway lines in Boston. He was arrested and the DA’s office learned there was no law against it. So the legislature quickly read a new bill, voted on it and passed it into law.

        BUT WAIT! THERE’S MORE!

        Even though Bozo could not be tried under the new law, it turned out that one of his subway victims was a 15-year-old girl. So they nailed him on child porn statutes.

    3. Daffodilly*

      I remember when this *used* to be true, too. It no longer is. Most states have passed laws specifically outlawing it.
      You don’t know what the law was when/where this happened.
      And things don’t have to be *illegal* to fire someone.
      So this is a useless argument.

      1. Butterfly Counter*

        1. We don’t know when this incident happened (OP says it was “a long time ago”), if it was before or after the new laws took effect, which is why I mentioned that HR might not want to fire the guy for a behavior that wasn’t illegal.

        2. I agree that if HR was using the excuse that the behavior wasn’t illegal to not fire his is terrible. But we’ve seen many times on this very site that bosses and HR don’t make the right decisions wrt firing people when it’s appropriate. (See: manager won’t fire coworker because they weren’t doing crime while at work and many other examples here.)

        The fact the man is still employed there is galling.

  9. AVP*

    This is gross, but a quick sweep of the facility’s public bathrooms for cameras might get you way more than you need to bring to the Board and possibly the police.

  10. Japonica*

    This has been a criminal offence where I live since 2019, and more than one formerly well respected man has lost his career over it. As indeed he should.

  12. ragazza*

    Honestly, I’d think about going to the media. Unfortunately, all too often negative attention is what it takes for companies to actually do something about this type of thing.

    3. Splendid Colors*

      I wonder if it’s common enough that one of the big investigative outfits (ProPublica, etc.) would be interested in doing a big story about how it happens in zillions of nonprofits and companies? They’re all about the “it’s happening everywhere!” kinds of investigations.

  13. Elizabeth West*

    Dear Baby Jesus,

    Please do not let me inadvertently apply for a job with this f*ckwit company.

    Ah-men.

  14. Lance*

    Our head of security had a reputation for being gross/inappropriate around women at the company

    This alone should disqualify him from being head of security in any reasonable company… much less on any conceivable form of security detail. Absolutely this man should’ve been fired… before this incident even happened.

    2. Junior Assistant Peon*

      A lot of places will hire anyone with a pulse. The point is to make customers feel safer when they see a man in a police-like uniform; he’s not expected to actually do much of anything.

      1. Observer*

        They would be better off with a dummy.

        This is not someone who is “not doing his job”. This is someone who is ACTIVELY MAKING PEOPLE UNSAFE.

  16. Vox Experientia*

    this reminds me of my training as a security guard when i worked as a younger man (think early 90’s) at highland mall in austin, tx. i was assigned to a senior officer who showed me around. he showed me where the food court was, and then he took me to the information desk, which rested underneath an open view staircase. we stood at the desk chatting with the receptionist until she received a call and looked away. he then hit me and pointed up – you could see up the skirts of women walking up the stairs. that was the extent of my training, where the food is and how to get a quick peek while the receptionist is busy.

    1. Whatapittie*

      I used to hang out at that same mall in 90’s/00’s and this doesn’t surprise me at all.

      1. banoffee pie*

        Yeah some boys used to do this at school (we had to wear skirts, it was the uniform). At least camera phones weren’t widepread yet, I’m so glad I got through school before they were.

        1. TM*

          I went to school with a delightful little toerag who made a practice of taping a mirror to the top of his shoe to facilitate his creepy peeping up skirts.
          Decades before phones with cameras, and while there was no way to keep the images, the little sh*t recruited more than one sniggering mate to do the same. So the sense of violation wasn’t any less.
          I don’t know if anyone bothered reporting him, but the school did drop its ban on non-regulation underwear (ah, the good-old days) around the same time, so every girl I knew began to wear shorts under their uniform skirts.
          I wonder how that charming specimen is doing, now he’s in his 50s. We were all 11/12 in age at the time – some predators begin young.

    2. TimeTravlR*

      I learned at an early age to use one hand to hold my skirt in a way to prevented this, or at least made it harder to see anything. Who thinks these open stairs are ever a good idea?!

      1. Candi*

        The usual reason I hear is they’re aesthetic. Usually some handwavy stuff about artistic merit.

        I’ve noticed fewer new ones in our area since cell phones became a thing.

  17. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

    Fire this guy.
    Then investigate every member of the security department to determine if they should keep their jobs too.

    1. Anonymous Hippo*

      I’d suggest investigating ever member of senior management to see if they should keep their jobs. I get the whole bad apple thing, but the focus should be on those who should have been responsible for the head of security’s behavior, not the people he had control over, and who might have felt compelled to go along with things for their jobs sake.

      1. Aiani*

        I agree with you so much Anonymous Hippo. When I first started working in security we had a supervisor who would hit on every young, female guard almost as soon as they were hired. Women warned me about him when I was a new hire. Sadly it’s very likely that this head of security is abusing his position in even worse ways when it comes to the guards who he has power over.

      2. Brett*

        Right. If this guy kept his job despite his reputation and despite an incident like this going to HR, that would send a message from upper management to everyone that reports to him that they better keep their mouth shut.

  18. Sparkles McFadden*

    At the very least, HR should have explained to those of you who made the complaint the reason why no action was taken. If they just went radio silent, that is not a good sign.

    My weirdly suspicious mind goes to this: He’s the head of security and has who knows what on multiple people. The creeps who stay in there jobs forever do so because management is afraid to act, or because management is part of the awful mindset/creepy behavior. For all anyone knows the guy was regularly sharing upskirt photos and security video feeds of women’s cleavage with the CEO.

    So you could have pushed back to ask “What happened here?” but you likely would have heard “We looked into it and there was nothing to be concerned about.”

    2. Alex*

      I wouldn’t jump straight to the leadership team being included in the distribution on the photos (especially as it appears that the two people who should be best placed to act are women) but the leadeship team clearly have their own reasons for wanting to keep this guy close which may well be to do with their own conduct (even if such conduct is completely unrelated to this guys actions).
      As you say as the head of security he is likely to have a better knowledge of what is going on than just about anyone else at the company (if he is even slightly competent at his job) so it may well be that he has information on the actions of the leadership that could be heavily damaging if they were to get out. Realisitically this is just a workplace example of the classic prisoners dilemma other than both parties have an even bigger incentive to collude and cover up the actions of the other party in order to prorect their own backs.

    3. tangerineRose*

      Or what if he realized they saw him do this, so he hid the photo and took an innocent photo of the area. Then if anyone asked, he could show the innocent photo.

    4. Observer*

      At the very least, HR should have explained to those of you who made the complaint the reason why no action was taken. If they just went radio silent, that is not a good sign.

      Oh, there is actually a REASONABLE reason why no action would not be taken? The silence is not the signal of a problem. In fact, in some ways an explanation would be WORSE. Because that would be an official statement that “we know that we need to fire this guy but were are going to throw a word salad at you to confuse you into shutting up.”

      For all anyone knows the guy was regularly sharing upskirt photos and security video feeds of women’s cleavage with the CEO.

      I would not be at all surprised.

  19. Long Time Lurker*

    We had something similar at my company, albeit on a smaller scale. The head of facilities was also in charge of security and insisted on having security cameras installed (and they weren’t really needed.) One of the cameras was in the gym and he would sit in the office watching women run on the treadmill.

    Karma did catch up with him, as he was eventually fired for filing false expense reports.

  20. Student*

    Items that should’ve been on this list, but weren’t:
    -Notify the intern of what happened! She deserves to know. It’s not clear anyone told her. She deserves to make her own choices on how she wants to handle this. That may include a lot of different options, ranging from taking legal action against the company to quitting an unsafe environment to taking defensive measures around this creep, to ignoring it.

    -Offer to provide written testimony on what you saw to the intern and give her your contact info, in case she wishes to take legal action against the company or the perpetrator, perhaps at a later date.

    -Call the cops. Even if it turns out this isn’t a crime in your area – call the cops anyway. This is a situation where the guy needs to be held accountable for his actions, and it’s bigger than just the company’s problem. If he has to explain himself to a cop, maybe it’ll make him think harder about what he’s doing. Maybe it’ll show up on a background check for his next security job. Maybe it’ll make things more visible and harder to sweep under the rug for the company. Maybe it’ll do nothing and the cops won’t even speak to him – but at least you’ll have tried to impose some cost on his public sexual harassment of women.

    1. Boof*

      If safe to do so, say loudly “WHOA WHAT ARE YOU DOING?” “IT LOOKED LIKE YOU WERE TAKING INAPPROPRIATE PHOTOS” – I realize it is SO HARD to call this out in the moment when one is a) shocked/confused and b) possibly quite intimidated, but I think sometimes if one steels onself ahead of time “if I see this then I will do that”, it’s very effective at shaming creeps to be slightly less creepy (and also alerting possible creeps not to creep)

  21. Mer*

    I will never understand why people like this are not immediately fired. He is 100% replaceable. Most men who do this are. They don’t have any special skill set that only like 3 other people in the world have. Other, non-predatory people can be trained to do their jobs. So why TF keep them?

  22. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    Oof, this makes me remember a former coworker, who loved recording women eating their lunch. That whole team was gross, but he was on the podium.

  23. TiredMama*

    The only explanation is that he is blackmailing someone high up to keep his job. There can be no other explanation.

    1. lost academic*

      Oh, I wish. Once people above someone like this start to hear about the behavior, you see a tendency to minimize, deflect, excuse it – it wasn’t what you thought, there’s no proof, etc etc etc… and then as the reports grow and the records (or lack because there’s rarely documentation made – those people have a hard time accepting that they contributed it and it’s like they can’t stop because they can’t admit they bear responsibility.

    3. JB*

      Are you sure about that? A good portion of the USA did decide not too long ago that they’re fine with a president who’s on record admitting to sexual harassment and assault. You don’t think people would be willing to overlook the same behavior in a head-of-security that they know personally?

      1. TiredMama*

        I forgot to add the /s/ to my comment. Of course that is not the only explanation. There’s never one explanation. With the former president, I think it was a mix of some people who don’t care, some people (men and women) who think the women deserve sexual harassment, some people who thought that voting for Clinton was worse that voting for Trump (save the children and all), people who want to own the libs, people who like to watch the world burn, and people who thought voting for him to get the Supreme Court seat was worth it.

        1. Becca*

          Don’t forget people who denied the reality and/or bought the line that everyone was just lying about him, and “didn’t see” x characteristic in him despite it being openly and obviously there.

    4. Wants Green Things*

      I mean this kindly, but this is incredibly naive. There are many other explanations, most of which boil down to “we just don’t care” or “no respect for women.”

      1. LizM*

        Exactly. An intern will be gone in a few months. If you don’t value her basic dignity for whatever reason (gender, age, etc.), it’s easy to assume that this “isolated incident” isn’t enough to warrant the trouble of finding someone new.

      2. Gan Ainm*

        Yeah… people want to think there must be some complicated situation as to how we could possibly tolerate this behavior, like something you’d see in a movie (he’s holding the manager’s child hostage! He has blackmail evidence! He’s secretly a millionaire who is bribing the board into silence!) but sexist, misogynistic and harassing behavior is incredibly common. I understand the impulse, you want to think the world is good and this must be a highly unusual situation… but it’s just not. It’s common unfortunately, and that kind of ignoring-reality naïveté can hurt victims. It can make their situations feel less real / important / believable. It’s similar to the “CSI/ law and order effect” where everyone now thinks that every single criminal case will have copious, irrefutable dna evidence and a dramatic reason / story, and are disinclined to believe victims without it.

  24. Zombeyonce*

    I’m sure someone at your local paper would love a tip that this guy still works there and is surely still doing things like this. Finding the names of some people that have left the company recently would likely give them a treasure trove of sources to mine for stories.

  25. Lab Boss*

    I worked at a summer camp- a work environment that tolerates a LOT of things that would be grounds for firing anywhere else. Even that incredibly permissive job managed to fire someone caught trying to peek at the female counselors in a state of undress (Managed to have him both fired and removed from the property in less than an hour, which is impressive in the middle of nowhere- although I’m not sure how much of that was because they wanted him gone fast, and how much was because they didn’t want him beaten when word started to spread).

    1. Boof*

      I would… really, REALLY hope even remotely sexually predatory behavior from anyone with any authority would be immediate dismissal in anything involving kids. I realize if the KIDS are doing it it might be a more nuanced approach, depending on what exactly it was but even that should be taken super seriously

      1. Lab Boss*

        Oh trust me it is (and to clarify, I know for sure the peeper was under 18, I believe his target was both older and more senior- doesn’t make it less creepy, but it does take away the “abusing authority” aspect). My wording was poor, when I said incredibly permissive I mean things that would be insta-termination at normal workplaces were simply discipline at ours- physical altercations between staff, for example.

        I was just looking to paint a picture of how even a chaotic, distinctly NOT professional workplace still managed to get this answer right, unlike OP’s (presumably) adult coworkers.

  28. Loredena Frisealach*

    I had hoped that by the time cell phones were ubiquitous things like this had improved, but nope. My first job out of college there was a coworker that every woman was warned about by the other women. He was having an affair with another woman in the company (pregnant wife), he would walk up behind me and start rubbing my shoulders (eep) and he made some very inappropriate sexual remarks to an intern. Everyone knew, and I think the women were all hoping I’d report/make waves because they felt it too risky – but at this time (late 80’s) it was too risky for me too!

  30. Cobblestone*

    I worked in a federal government building where one of the security guards was known to be inappropriate to women. He (old, male, white) asked me (young, female, BIPOC) to kiss him once in a conversation about boating, so I we were “friendly” enough to chat. This was in the hallway of the main entrance where people walked in and out all the time. He said it “jokingly” and I, used to his behaviour, pretend-shrieked (not really pretend) and told him, “Eww, no!” and walked away. I told my boss but didn’t formally report it because what would that have done if everyone already knows about it? I started avoiding going by the main entrance.

    It happens a lot, unfortunately.

  31. mcl*

    This makes me so mad and sad. The fact that he was obviously a known problem (women warning newcomers about him). Employees actively and openly being victimized. An intern who is new to the workplace and just trying to do her freaking job, and this guy. This guy who should be protecting everyone. He just goes on and victimizes her with no consequences.

    I hope that you can get a bunch of people together, OP, and make a big and un-ignorable push to the board. Maybe the press needs to get involved. This guy and the people who have protected him need to be held accountable.

  33. Language Lover*

    Where I work, security knows all of the gossip. Especially if there are cameras everywhere.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if he knew something on someone at a higher level and the person would rather maintain their professional or personal comfort at the expense of a guard who harasses.

  35. MuseumChick*

    I hate to say it but this kind of thing is very common in nonprofit cultural institutions. A few years ago a friend of mine had a very scary interaction with a much older male volunteer. All they did when she reported was change their schedules so they would not be on-site at the same time.

    1. Stitch*

      Credit to my minimum wage retail theme park job. We approached our manager about a security guy who was touching women and he was gone.

  36. Dream Jobbed*

    Definitely inform the board. And if you can do it without repercussions, I’d send a copy to as many women in the building as possible letting them know the board has been informed. This is ridiculous.

  37. Budgie Buddy*

    My only comfort is imagining that this employee is also fleecing the company for all they’re worth and someday the higher ups will find out and realize the tens of thousands of dollars they cost themselves by not firing this creep the first time someone complained.

  38. Sarah*

    I want to say this is surprisingly unfortunately I’ve come to the realization that it’s fairly common for no action to be taken. I recently reported sexual harassment from another employee, the only action taken was to move my desk. Apparently once HR spoke with that employee he was very apologetic so problem solved for them. I’m the one that’s left dealing with the anxiety and changing my wardrobe so I don’t draw any attention whatsoever.

  39. ChemistryChick*

    My immediate reaction the letter title was a very loud “WHAAAAAAAAAAT?!?!”

    I have nothing that doesn’t involve a string of expletives.

  40. Liz T*

    Anyone else following theomahaoracle on TikTok? I’m really skeptical that any companies do sh*t about sexual harassment at this point.

    1. Lady_Lessa*

      I can give you one recent good example (recent being about 8 years ago). I and my lab tech worked in a locked lab with our main contact with production was through a Dutch window. One of the production workers would come by, WHEN I wasn’t there and verbally harass my tech. (we worked slightly different hours, so that there was QC coverage when production needed it.) When she finally mentioned something to her father (who was the creep’s immediate supervisor) the guy was gone that day.

      If I had witnessed it or if she had told me, it would have happened sooner.

        1. Lady_Lessa*

          I like to think that anyone who reported it would have gotten the guy fired. I’m just sorry that I wasn’t involved in handling it. He would still be bouncing.

          1. Liz T*

            But the supervisor probably wouldn’t have taken her seriously if he hadn’t been her dad. That’s why she didn’t report it to her own supervisor or HR or anyone else. And who knows if her dad would’ve taken it seriously if the one complaining hadn’t been his daughter.

            I get that you like to think that’s not the case, but my point was that all the evidence I’ve seen suggests it IS the case. So, I’m happy for your lab tech, but this story isn’t evidence of the system working.

            1. Lady_Lessa*

              I was her supervisor and I would have reported the same day, if she had told me or if he had slipped up and I caught him in the act. Whether or not, I would have gotten a good response, probably if I had gone to my supervisor, but questionable if I had chosen someone else.

              I’m not saying that every company does right, but one did at least one time.

            2. Thanksforthefish*

              I was working as a teacher in a public school and a sub looked up my personal contact info both online and somehow got my personal cell # and started contacting me inappropriately, giving out my personal info to students, and one incident that led me to believe he was stalking me. I told a vice-principal and he never worked at the school again and I never heard from him again. So right thing done right away, not by a relative.

    2. Batgirl*

      I remember when a guy started hovering around me and staying back when I had the lone graveyard shift, which was either intentionally or unintentionally creepy. I *should* have felt sorry for his lack of nous and emboldened by knowing my company would have my back if he was anything less than amenable when I slapped him down, but all I could think was: “If he does get aggressive, we know each other, it will be seen as he said/she said, and my company are useless; I would have no recourse. Has he figured out the same equation?”

    3. Observer*

      Fortunately, I don’t think we’ve had much of an issue here with staff. Clients are another story. It’s harder to deal with, but still doable. And we DO. We did have one situation where a client was harassing one of the staff. The supervisor went fairly ballistic and told him in no uncertain terms told him in no uncertain terms that if he does this one more time, he’s no longer a client. She meant it and he knew it. A similar situation with another client and another staff person. That supervisor didn’t go ballistic on the client. But she was equally unmistakably clear.

    4. WS*

      We had an elderly patient (but not with dementia, and a very big, strong man) who constantly harassed younger female staff members and we banned him, which is a big deal when he then has to travel 50km each way for medical help. If he’d apologised and stopped, we wouldn’t have banned him, but instead he decided that being asked to apologise was the perfect opportunity to berate the all-female staff and threaten us with legal action.

      That was scary, as was his habit of driving up and down the main street and screaming at me from his car (for some reason he decided it was all my fault) but the worst part was the one part-time male boss who thought he’d been “punished enough” and should be let back in. After explaining it was a workplace safety issue for everyone but him, he backed down, but he still didn’t really understand it.

  41. Dust Bunny*

    I would have gouged his eyes out and worried about the consequences later.

    Seriously, though–this organization suuuuucks.

  42. Generic Name*

    Does it matter if it happened “a long time ago”? I recently complained about a coworker sexually harassing me (actually I first complained about him about a year ago, but my then boss…did nothing). HR was all, “why didn’t you come forward sooner?” and they talked to him, but I don’t think anything else happened because HR also mentioned how “long ago” (2 years prior to my first complaint). I’m thinking of quitting, honestly.

  43. Uranus Wars*

    This blows my mind. Our old head of security had sex on his desk after hours one night with his girlfriend. They liked to kinda to play their cards and, well, they got caught in a random video audit.

    No questions asked. FIRED. As it should be. How is this guy still there?

    Side note: I’ve been known to do some similar things in public. Just not AT WORK.

    1. Anon for This*

      Regarding your side note, just remember that if you’re in public, you’re probably in someone else’s workplace. (Like maybe a parks department worker.) From their perspective, they don’t care whether you work there. They do care that you’re doing it where they work, and most of them would not be too happy about it. (And, yes, a minority would probably encourage it.)

      I’m not telling you where you can or can’t do some things, just to think about others before you do.

  44. Former Intern*

    On my first day of an unpaid internship many years ago, the lobby security guard made a disgusting sexual comment to/about me as I waited for the elevator. I mentioned it to some coworkers, who knew he was a creep, but he worked security for the building and not the organization so no one felt empowered to do anything. But I figured out I had a contact in the security company, and he was assigned to a different shift/building for long past the remainder of my internship (not good enough, but I took it!). A year later, I walked in for my first day of full-time employment and he was back, and I found out he’d harassed at least two other colleagues in the interim. His management had changed, however, and he quickly “retired” after I talked with my contact again.

    I was lucky that the security company was worried about complaints to the building, which could result in them losing the contract. I was also an older intern and had reached the point in my life where I wasn’t afraid to call out harassment and burn everything to the ground. But the fact that OP’s security guard is an employee and nothing has been done is awful. Even if the intern didn’t know about the photo, I doubt it was the only time he did something to her.

  45. Jansie*

    That head of security – probably has a lot of “insurance” on the Leaders of that Organization – which is protecting him from any consequences of his actions. I worked at a firm where the head of IT was just awful, especially to women – but was protected by what he knew leaders were doing on their computers/laptops.

  46. Person Of Interest*

    If I were you, I’d look for a local media outlet interested in hearing this story. I wouldn’t even bother with the board. The fact that they knew this guy was a creep to the point they WARN NEW FEMALE EMPLOYEES about him, and yet still employee him, points to such gross mismanagement from the top down that others need a warning to avoid working at this place.

  47. JA*

    10 years ago, the security guy at my office was arrested in our building’s lobby by a task force after he solicited what he thought was a 13 year old child prostitute on the internet. How did they find him? He used his work email address in the online exchanges! They took his computer and everything from around his desk and no one at the agency ever told us what happened. It wasn’t until about a year later when one of us finally found details about it via a Google search. The office manager was then upset with the rest of us for talking about it amongst ourselves. Evidently they didn’t think we had the right to know. He was a child predator and had even been in contact with one of my coworkers several months after the arrest but they couldn’t understand why we would want to know that!

  48. jcarnall*

    If he’s in the habit of taking upskirting photos from his desk, then unless he’s actually warned in advance that there’s going to be an investigation, he is likely to have an upskirt photo on his phone whenever HR insists on checking his phone.

    Write to the board, tell them what happened and that the guy was so egregious women were warned about being around him.

    Wait a couple of months and if he’s still employed as head of security… leave a review on GlassDoor, with full details about how you went to HR, nothing happened, you contacted the board, nothing happened, so no one should work there unless they like working for a company which officially permits the head of security to take upskirting photos of interns on his phone.

  49. BlueK*

    This really is how predators are able to keep preying on people for so long. There’s no way he hasn’t found other ways to get his fix while in that position.

    It can be hard to speak up when something crosses the line. Especially if you know/feel it’s going to be tolerated.

    Had an elderly member of my church say some very unacceptable things about my body and his feelings. While we were side hugging. Because I’d always thought of him in a kind old man way. I froze in the moment (thankfully someone helped extract me). I debated w/ myself some because he was very respected and I didn’t want to make it a thing. Ultimately, I did raise it w/ the pastor. In a “hey this thing happened and it wasn’t okay” way. I was lucky. I was listened to and there was a resolution that I was comfortable with.

  50. AnonInCanada*

    I see Alison rightfully tagged this under Jerks. Who’s the true jerk in this: the a**hole security guard who took the upskirt photo, or the HR department who should’ve 1> fired him, 2> had him arrested! What kind of numbskull operation is this? And the poor victim? She should’ve had the cops on him too!

  51. Obfuscated Orangutan*

    Wow, it is so disturbing that these stories pop up all over. I (F) had an engineering internship in a roll where the only other woman I saw day to day was the admin assistant, even though the working group was quite large. At some point over that summer, I started receiving lewd and disgusting voicemails left overnight. After the second time, I had the male interns screening my voicemails in the morning. For weeks, I just thought, “some people are glassbowls”. Then, I realized that the calls must have come from someone at the company (ie, an unknown coworker of mine!), and that was really the first point where I understood that this was Wrong and should be Dealt With.

    This is where my ordeal so vastly differs from OP’s: I spoke to my manager about it. He took me seriously and immediately agreed that this was something to address. He spoke with the head of security, who came to get more information. They got me a new phone number for my desk, and they had my original phone number forwarded to the 24 hour security desk. I have no clue if he tried that more than once after having the phone answered by security rather than a voicemail message. The rest of the summer went by with no more disgusting voicemails, and I really did feel like the company had my back. What didn’t end, though, was wondering about pretty much all of my coworkers, who was it? Was I working directly with him? I never heard enough of the messages to pick up the guy’s voice. My relationship with everybody suffered because of what one shitty person did.

  52. OyHiOh*

    Unfortunately, in most US states, the laws around this have not caught up with the technology and it is not literally criminal to take upskirt photos. The problem generally comes down to interpretations of what is allowable in public spaces. So, in many parts of the US, it is literally criminal for a woman to walk down a public street topless, but not literally criminal for someone to upskirt a woman walking on the same public sidewalk.

    Inside a building, the leadership of the organization can define allowable behavior for that space, including specific prohibition on upskirt photos, but unless/until the organization codifies that prohibition, it is technically not criminal behavior – unless the OP lives in one of a handful of places that have more or less criminalized this predatory behavior.

    Source: My partner is a photographer and wary of shooting in public spaces or doing “street life” style photography because there’s so much variation in the laws, the laws aren’t in synch with technology, and even if you control the frame, people are weird and do things you may not see until you process the photos.

    1. A Wall*

      It’s even worse than that– in most states, the legal precedent that has been set in court is not only that upskirt photos are legal, but that there is not a boundary to what photos can be taken of you in public because you have no right to expect any kind of privacy there. There were a series of rulings to this effect like ~10 years ago, where judges decided that because women do not have the right to privacy in public areas, it cannot be a crime to take photos up their skirts without their consent or knowledge. There were some related cases around the same time that also decided the legality of creepshots on similar grounds. So that’s the situation in most of the country to this day.

  53. Name changed to protect the innocent*

    Honestly, I’ve never relied on HR to deal with this stuff. But cellphones and doorbell cameras have really ruined things. I used to take care of these things myself or send my brother to deal with them.

  54. mc*

    Academia. Basically the same story! Creeping by janitors, vendors, faculty, students, etc is not considered problematic behavior in the workplace. Creepy guys get excuses made for him/them, over and over, by everyone in charge. They will do anything except hold them accountable. Apparently, it was/is considered way worse for any guy to risk losing his job/suffer consequences over this behavior than for people to be subjected to it.

  55. Batgirl*

    It’s so sad that OP was made to feel “dramatic” for minding that the renowned company lecher had carte blanche and access to all the cameras. It wouldn’t be dramatic if you worked in a zoo, were pulled aside to be told the lions weren’t caged and the only advice is: “Oh hey, look out for yourself, because no one else will”.

  58. Heffalump*

    30 years ago I would have said I wouldn’t want him as dogcatcher. Today, I would want him as dogcatcher. Maybe he’d get bitten by a rabid dog.

  59. Working Hypothesis*

    TBH, as soon as the managers told me that the **head of security** was such a danger to women that I should “watch myself” I would have known this place was toxic and wouldn’t support any woman he abused. Responsible companies do not ask women to “watch themselves” around a company employee… they address the company employee so that he doesn’t harm anyone there anymore. By putting the responsibility for your own safety on you in the first place, they were telling you at the top of their voices that they would never, ever protect a woman against him; that it was always to be the women’s duty to either successfully protect themselves, or accept abuse.

    That was the shocking part — not that they didn’t fire him after you reported the incident, but that they hadn’t fired him long since, after whatever other incidents led to the common knowledge that he was a danger to women.

    1. London Calling*

      I was asked in an interview for my last job if I was OK with ‘banter’ as one male member of the department was a bit of a character. Turns out that ‘character’ was sexually harassing women AND men and only was fired when I supported a new member of staff to complain to HR. And it still took over a year and an employment tribunal (UK). I worked there for four years and it should have beena sign about the toxic management in that part of the company.

  60. I'm the Phoebe in Any Group*

    This reminds me of families who say stay away from Uncle X at the family event. How about banning Uncle X who was a child molester?

  61. The_artist_formerly_known_as_Anon-2*

    All I can sense is that some people are afraid to “blow the whistle” on this jerk.

    Well, that asshat enjoys taking pictures — perhaps he has some pics of higher ups in compromising situations. And he keeps his job that way.

  62. His Grace*

    Your boss and multiple women in your company warned you about this man being a grade-A lech. That alone should have raised a ton of red flags.

    His second in command and another witness caught him in the act, reported him to HR, and still did nothing? This is so wrong and horrible, I don’t even know how to think straight now. He should have been fired right on the sport (either for that gross breach of trust or for failing to surrender the phone).

    As for HR’s lack of action, are they looking to face civil litigation from an employee? WTF are they thinking?

  63. Macaroni Penguin*

    “What a donkey hat,” Quote from my security team lead husband.
    Yes, taking up skirt photos would have been a firing offence. What should have happened is HR does a proper investigation. There should have been pictures of some kind on Donkey Hats’ phone. What could have been done in the past? Witnesses could have gone to HR again and asked for a general update. HR might not have been able to provide details. But leadership should have kept the OP basically informed of how the investigation progressed.

  64. Typing All The Time*

    Same. I worked at a museum gift shop where an employee within their contract with a third-party company had stolen thousands of dollars. The awesome manager took the fall and resigned but it was kept quiet until the contract was renewed.

  65. Libretta*

    I worked for a place with a guy who made all kinds of gross jokes about women and was literally touching a select few inappropriately. SIX OF US went to HR to demand action – it was a large professional org (thousands of employees) with explicit policies – and they. did. nothing. After a few months we went to ask what gives and they said they were understaffed and would totally look into it. A year later he had to take a class with a life coach, and kept his job.

  66. Bilateralrope*

    I work security in a country where it’s harder to fire people than it is the US. The upskirt photo should be enough to get him fired immediately.

    One detail about the laws here that might not be the case for the letter writer is that the security is employed by a contractor. So if you’ve got a problem with an individual member of security, you can complain to the organization the individual is securing or to the security company that employs them.

  67. ZephyrBrightmoon*

    Long post is long.

    I work in security. My industry is a circus sideshow. It’s a Moebius Strip of failure. What do I mean by Moebius Strip of failure? We are largely devalued as people both by our companies we work for and by the everyday citizen thanks to movies like Paul Blart: Mall Cop. People look at and talk to us like we’re idiots. Our work also doesn’t require a lot of higher math or other “book smarts”, so anyone finding it hard to get hired in other fields can get hired in security.

    However, it’s also a great stepping stone for new immigrants as many of them are perfectly intelligent people but stupid governments don’t trust their licensing and accreditation from their home countries, so they work security while going through re-certification in their original fields and move on to better things once they get all their licenses and certifications up-to-date.

    So the one side of the Moebius Strip is that pretty much anybody can get hired in security no matter how good or bad they may be. As such, the industry has a bad reputation. Whether it’s racism for how many non-white folks work in security or other forms of denigration due to our poor reputation, nobody with better prospects wants to work in security or work very long in it.

    The other side of the Moebius Strip is due to people not wanting to stay in security long, it means there’s lots of companies desperate to fill shifts. As long as someone is capable of doing the base work non-fraudulently/incompetently, they’ll get coddled and kept because filling shifts is hard. It’s better to have a smart asshole than a nice idiot, in my industry. I am -absolutely not- condoning -any of this-. It’s as utterly gross as you think it is. I’m explaining how it perpetuates. If security personnel were treated with more respect and paid better, we’d be more able to retain quality people. With more quality people and less bleeding out of talent, security companies would be less desperate to just -fill a shift with anyone not dead or with a criminal record-. They’d have more discretion to get rid of awful people. Case in point, my ex-company (I’m at a better company now), G4S, retained a guy who made sexist and racist remarks (I personally witnessed this from him) because he wasn’t categorically stupid and could do the work, and would take absolutely any asinine shift they needed him for. Years later, I asked a manager whatever happened to the guy. She said with relief that they were finally able to be rid of the him. I asked if they finally fired him. She said, “Fired? Oh gosh no. He finally -died- so we don’t have to deal with him anymore.” Man was GROSS and he had to -die- for the company to get free of him? That company is unionized and they tried to get him dealt with but the union always protected him. To this day, no idea why.

    I’m not excusing this in any way nor asking people to be “understanding” because there’s nothing to “understand” about this behaviour. We need to hold security companies to a higher standard so they treat their employees better and can retain better people while at the same time be able and willing to remove problematic people like the security supervisor mentioned.

    Thanks for coming to my TED talk. >_> (Feel free to ask me security questions if you want. I’ll gladly answer if it helps.)

    1. misspiggy*

      That’s interesting, thank you for sharing. So it needs to be made really painful for a security personnel company to have been found to keep someone terrible.

    2. Recruited Recruiter*

      This is a huge problem with unions in understaffed fields. My wife is a teacher who was physically assaulted by a co-worker in a store. She didn’t press charges because she did not want to deal with going through court while we were in the process of moving away from that city, and the teachers union made sure that he did not lose his job or even get an unpaid suspension.

  68. Pants*

    In a previous work life, our General Counsel disappeared overnight. The day after I’d put on the largest annual event of the company, in which he was heavily involved, all employees got the “Blah blah has left the company effective immediately in order to spend more time with his family. We wish him well.” Anyone with a smidge of experience knows this is code for “yo, some serious ish went down.” (Paraphrasing.) My department worked very closely with the GC and we were all pulled into a meeting where we were told that we wouldn’t be told what happened and if anyone asked, to let them know as much and to carry on as normal.

    Several years later, it finally came out that the GC was taking upskirt photos of women in his office. He’d specifically call women into his office for “meetings” or “just to chat” in order to do this. We always thought his weird desk, which was an open table, was a style choice. An admin (C-suite was notorious for only hiring gorgeous admins) caught him taking the photos and went to Security. Security went to Compliance. Both decided they couldn’t legally do anything because his phone was personal property and they didn’t have enough evidence. The company paid for his phone, so that was just crap. So the same admin went to his office for a “meeting” again and took video of him upskirting her. She went back to Security and Compliance, who decided to usher out the GC quietly to avoid A Scene, and gave him a $2 million parachute. The admin retired later that year; she was in her 40s.

    I’d left the company by the time the story came out. The same story was squashed and buried soon after it was published, but not before I took screenshots and saved a PDF. My boss was the Chief of Global Compliance. The event I put on the day before the GC was ushered out was the Global Compliance Summit.

  69. Silverose*

    The two of you who witnessed it could have also helped the intern file a police report at the time of the initial incident. Since we’re still talking about a time of cell phone cameras, I guarantee the guy broke a law to do it – most jurisdictions were super quick to get laws like that on the books as soon as cell phone cameras existed. Then you could also have turned around and helped the intern file an EEOC complaint for sexual harassment after the company HR failed to act on the information – I’m pretty sure upskirt pictures count as egregious enough for a one-off filing.

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