open thread – November 12-13, 2021

by Alison Green on November 12, 2021

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Bob The Skull*

    A question about my insurance through my employer. I signed up to get full Insurance coverage including dental with my company when I was hired in May of this year (I’m in the USA). I got my cards and payments were deducted from my paycheck. I have a dentist appointment next week so a few days ago, I make sure my card is tucked in my wallet. I realize that I don’t have a card and contact the insurance company; they tell me I only have a vision plan with them, not a dental plan. I go to my HR and explain they say I’m not covered for dental despite the payments deducted from my paycheck. HR confirms that I completed the correct paperwork with them and I should have dental insurance. They’re following up with the insurance company to figure out what went wrong.

    So that’s still being sorted out and I don’t know where the fault lies, but now I want to know because I’ve been paying for coverage that I haven’t had for six months, would I have any standing to ask to be reimbursed for the payments these past months? Whether from the insurance company or my employer, I guess that would depend on who confessed to the error. Obviously I haven’t tried to use the insurance otherwise I would have noticed it sooner, but what if I’d had a dental emergency and discovered I didn’t have coverage. I was paying for a safety net that wasn’t there but a coworker who had been here for years says I’ll never get reimbursed from HR or the insurance company. Is this the kind of thing I should ask either my employer or the insurance place to reimburse me for the months I was charged for but didn’t have coverage? Or should I just be glad that I didn’t have to find this out from an emergency and be forced to pay out of my own pocket?

    1. BlueBelle*

      Likely it will be retroactive. They can show you elected for it and have been paying for it. You might have to pay out of pocket if it isn’t sorted by the time of your appointment, but it should be reimbursed. Good luck!

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Exactly. I don’t think the solution is going to be “you didn’t have insurance after all so you’ll get a refund,” it will be “you had insurance after all so any expenses you incurred will be covered.”

      1. Formerly in HR*

        No need to go nuclear and involve the insurance commissioner , who might not even have jurisdiction if the plan is self -insured. There are provisions in the insurance contract which allow for “clerical errors” like this to be corrected retroactively. The employee’s coverage will be dated to begin retroactively when it should have and, if not already paid, the employer will pay the carrier the premium back to that date. He may not have used the coverage, he elected it to begin on that date as did many other employees; had he tried to use it earlier, the mistake would have been found sooner.

    3. Bean Counter Extraordinaire*

      I’ve never had dental or vision through the same company as regular medical insurance – for example, I have Cigna medical insurance (with a card), Delta Dental insurance (no card), and VSP Vision insurance (no card). Do you have any of your enrollment paperwork listing who the dental and vision providers are?

    4. Crazy Plant Lady*

      Once everything gets sorted out with your employer and the insurance company, they will probably retroactively update the start date of the policy to be when it should have started (e.g., May) rather than reimbursing you for those months.

    5. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I believe what they would do, if you had had an emergency during that time, they would make the coverage retroactive to the date you started paying and cover any expenses including reimbursing you for out of pocket payments you made…theoretically. That’s probably what will end up happening; neither will admit fault, and they’ll simply mark you down as covered since X date.

    6. Hlao-roo*

      I don’t know for sure, but my guess is you should ask whichever party was at fault for reimbursement. If the insurance company was taking your money but not providing coverage, they should reimburse you. Likewise if your company was deducting the money but not passing it along to the insurance company somehow.

      One thing to ask yourself is how much effort are you willing to put in to the fight to get your money back? (I’m assuming it will take a significant amount of effort to see any money.) Might be worth the fight, might not be.

      And a parting thought: you can be glad you discovered this oversight in a non-emergency situation AND seek reimbursement!

      1. Formerly in HR*

        There is nothing to be reimbursed to the employee. The employer and the company providing the coverage are the parties to the contract, not the employee, and that contract has a provision which allows clerical errors like this to be rectified. The employee is being made whole because their claim, whether it had been incurred on the first day of the plan year, or the last day, will be paid

      2. CalypsoSummer*

        I used to work at a health care company. There would be no reimbursement for the months that the member wasn’t properly enrolled — his coverage would just be backdated to when it *should* have started.

    7. Cold Fish*

      Don’t hold your breath for reimbursement or coverage until next year.

      I worked with a gal who knew her son was going to need braces. She talked to the insurance agent and got supplemental insurance that was to cover the cost. Finally, three years later, goes to get braces for her son. Not covered. The insurance agent signed her up for the wrong coverage. Totally the agents error. Coworker was basically told “oops”. That was it. She was supposed to know that the agent signed her up for the wrong coverage. She would have been better off just putting that money in a sock in a drawer.

      Another coworker told me the story of how she paid for insurance for two years then found out she wasn’t covered. Upon investigation, the agent was a drug addict and was stealing payments to pay for drugs. Took him to court and lost. The insurance company (he was an AUTHORIZED agent for) wasn’t responsible it was she who should have known he was stealing the payments.

      1. Wow*

        I served as a civil jury foreman for a similar type of case – house burned down, agent had recently changed the policy on the house & its contents, homeowners had not looked over the actual policy and just assumed their coverage was the same. So I can see why the first person lost their argument. It’s on you to know what your policy covers.

        We found for the plaintiffs mostly because the local agent had done some other shady crap including swapping agents on and off and not providing them adequate training on their own organizational policies about notifications of policy change, so they couldn’t document anything saying they had permission to change the policy or had formally notified the owners that there was any need to review the change – but again, this was a civil case, and it took them 7 years and a lot of money to finally get a jury verdict (the house & its contents were worth $4.5M though, and their revised policy was capping them at $1M, so….. you can see why they fought it). I cannot believe your second story person lost their case, unless it only went to small claims and was only reviewed by a judge. I would have expected a jury to side with her.

        1. Cold Fish*

          Insurance is so convoluted and complex I don’t think an “average” person can really tell if they are getting supplemental insurance to cover orthodontia or supplemental insurance to cover dental work (which is supposedly what she ended up with) when the agent is telling you that yes orthodontia is what you are getting. The agent admitted she was supposed to do the orthodontia supplemental. As far as I’m concerned that stupid duck committed out and out theft by taking her money for three years and then denying her claim when the waiting term was over.

          As for the second case, the judge made the deciding determination not a jury. I don’t remember what coworker told me was his reasoning but drilled down to the same “she should have known” argument you are using for Coworker #1.

    8. Falling Diphthong*

      I have successfully reinstated coverage (for health under COBRA) and not paid for the missing months, but in this case I immediately caught the error (they stopped sending me bills) and had been trying to correct it. And I specifically argued that I was actively putting off optional health care for me and my child because “This will be sorted in another week” that took like 2-3 months. If I had only discovered the lack of coverage 3 months out when I tried to use the insurance, I don’t think the argument would work.

      1. Bob The Skull*

        And that’s where I’m at now with this. I had to cancel the appointment that I initially looked for the card for when I realized it was a problem, and now I’m on the verge of needing to cancel a second appointment. these were back to back appointments to treat gingivitis. So now I am getting a delay in treatment, and I’m wondering if that will assist with any kind of reimbursement.

        1. HoundMom*

          This is group insurance through your employer. It is highly unlikely that you will receive any kind of reimbursement for the error. I am surprised the broker was not able to get someone from the carrier to reach out to the dentist and let them know what happened and arrange for the care and payment. So, you would not have had to cancel the appointments.

          1. CalypsoSummer*

            The insurance company can’t make any promises about coverage and payment until the member (Bob) is properly enrolled, and HR will probably need to send them fresh copies of his info. Regardless of where the process broke down, the important step is to get him into their system; their investigation of what went wrong is secondary. (It’s important for them to find out what went wrong, but it shouldn’t be their primary focus at the moment.)

            Once he’s properly listed as having dental coverage, THEN the insurance company can verify to the dentist that yes, he has coverage via such-a-plan, and he can go in for treatment.

            1. HoundMom*

              Actually, I am a broker and this happens all the time for both new hires and errors like this. If HR informs the carrier that he should have been enrolled, the carrier will make the call to provider as a courtesy. If someone is enrolled on time, it takes 24 to 48 hours for it to be live in the carrier system. In this case, they are trying to retro back more than 60 days, it may a bit longer, but it should not take more than a week.

    9. Irish girl*

      Hopefully your company squares it away otherwise they will have a claim under their Employee Benefits Liability Coverage if they so purchased.

    10. Mimi23*

      OP, I can tell you that in my 30+ year HR career, this has happened a handful of times and it’s always, always been a simple fix. I suppose YMMV, but either you’ll get coverage retroactively or you’ll get your premiums reimbursed. Most likely, the coverage will be activated.

  2. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

    Seeking advice on being “out” as a disabled person at work, seeking ADA accommodations, and avoiding discrimination. . .
    Based on instruction from our HR director, I met privately with my boss to discuss ADA accommodations and had a letter from my doctor listing specific accommodations and their specific benefits. Boss refused to look at letter due to his concerns about privacy. HR is only supposed to be involved if Boss and I need mediation. Boss reluctantly agreed with my requests, but asked how the busy season will work. I suggested we wait to discuss summer after we (doctor, Boss, and I) assess the impact of these accommodations.

    Context: A third of our team have gotten ADA/FMLA accommodations this year. I’m the youngest person with my title and am the only one with a permanent condition. But I should be able to get over my problems ASAP since I’m not even thirty years old and they are an inconvenience to my employer(/sarcasm). (Boss is in denial about permanency of my health condition.)

    I would like an adjusted travel schedule for the next busy season. I was 1 of 2 staff members who traveled for 5 straight weeks earlier this year. The rest of the department traveled for 2 weeks or didn’t travel at all. We are all required to “provide support to X programs”, half of which are travel-free. Pre-Covid, we hired external contractors for the travel. I cannot repeat this year’s schedule, which caused significant deterioration of my health. I would like to travel for just the first and last weeks of next busy season, providing support from the office the rest of the time. Would our staffing situation make this an “unreasonable” accommodation?
    Boss also mentioned re-evaluating my job description with HR (it sounded really ominous). I’m very concerned about being pushed out or having my (already limited) growth opportunities reduced by management because of my disability. Relevant: higher job titles come with a big reduction in the tasks that I need accommodations for.

    I would appreciate guidance for future conversations about my ADA-accommodations, including specific language. Any advice on how to make sure I protect myself from illegal discrimination? Unfortunately, now is not the time to find a new job. There’s a good chance I will need to use FMLA before 2023.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I was 1 of 2 staff members who traveled for 5 straight weeks earlier this year. The rest of the department traveled for 2 weeks or didn’t travel at all.

      Did the people who didn’t travel have the same job title as you? Or are their jobs otherwise considered equivalent to yours? If so, that could be a place to start – you would like to travel the minimum number of weeks that a Llama Groomer travels in your department.

      1. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

        Yes, they all have equivalent job titles but have been in the role for longer (when they were not required to travel because we hired outside contractors for that aspect of the work) and were very resistant to increasing their travel from zero.

        I really like the suggested language of “minimum travel for the role” – absolutely writing that down to use in that meeting. Especially because it will prompt Boss to look at big-picture of operational needs, not just how my needs are problematic.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          I think “I don’t want to travel MORE than everyone else” is a pretty strong position to take!

    2. SlimeKnight*

      Your HR person is really passing the buck here. As a manager I have familiarity with ADA laws, but our HR Director is who actually has the knowledge to navigate those situations (both for the employee’s benefits and so we don’t get sued). Your HR needs to be more involved, especially if your boss isn’t taking the interactive conversation part of the ADA seriously.

      In terms of what is a reasonable accommodation: your age should not factor into this at all. What matters is the paperwork your doctor has submitted, your job description, and what people with substantially similar jobs to yours do. So if you have coworkers in the same position travelling 2-weeks versus your 5, then it sounds like travelling five weeks is not “essential” to the job. Especially if in the past they had other staff doing these tasks.

      1. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

        A complicating factor is that our HR director recently left the organization (on good terms) and they were actually our only staff member who handled personnel concerns. My organization interfered extensively with their work – including publishing a handbook with policies that go against federal law because they refused to consult with lawyers or HR to make those policies.

        Thank you for more clarification on what makes an accommodation reasonable/unreasonable. I hope we are able to hire in a competent, strong-willed HR director before I have to negotiate the schedule for the busy season so that I can get them involved.

        1. On the other hand*

          Honestly, though, based on what you’ve just described with the handbook and the rest of the history: one HR director cannot rewrite a dysfunctional culture all on their own. And it sounds like the organization might be very keen to hire someone who *wouldn’t* keep “getting in their way”….. If you have to depend on HR to be an umbrella protecting you, that isn’t a really secure place to be in, and it sounds like you might benefit from looking for other job opportunities just in case.

    3. Constance Lloyd*

      If you need legal advice and cannot afford it, I recommend reaching out to your state’s protection and advocacy agency. Each state has one, and they provide free legal advice (and sometimes representation, if needed) for folks with disabilities facing discrimination. They can also provide self advocacy resources, which can be helpful in initial conversations about ADA accommodations. These resources may even be posted on your P&A’s website, if you’d rather read up on your own time before speaking with someone. And of course, document document document. Save any and all written communication, summarize verbal communication by email, and send everything to a personal address.

      1. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

        Thank you. I didn’t think to look for a state advocacy agency, even though I myself am a state employee (head-desk).

        I’m making lots of internal notes, but Boss has a history of retaliation/blowing up when anything verbally discused is documented back to him via email. Do you think it would be okay to record our meetings on my phone? FWIW, I live in a single-party consent state and would make sure not to discuss any confidential client information while recording.

        1. Constance Lloyd*

          Fun fact! Each state has a P&A (laws differ by state, etc), but these advocacy groups are federally funded and explicitly independent from state control because part of their function is to investigate state-run facilities (such as prisons and schools) and bring legal action against the state if the state is in violation of disability rights laws. I’m also a state employee and one of my coworkers used our P&A to sue over ADA accommodations recently! So I hope you don’t need them for legal action, but they truly have a wealth of resources available if you want to go into these discussions armed with specific legal jargon rather than a general sense of right & wrong. Best of luck!

        2. Constance Lloyd*

          Regarding recordings, if it’s legal and your manager tends to blow up… in your shoes I would do it, and not bring it up unless absolutely necessary for legal action. But I am neither an attorney nor a manager so take that as you will.

        3. DrRat*

          I would be very wary of making phone recordings. My company has an explicit policy that you cannot make audio, video, or photo recordings of anyone at work without their explicit permission. Violating this policy is reason for instant dismissal. This means that if you’re taking a group photo at work just for fun you have to ask every person there for permission to be in the photo, even if they are all grouped around the birthday cake and looking into the camera. Watch your back on this!

    4. Annony*

      I think it is time to bring HR back in. Let them know that you are concerned by your boss’s comment about reevaluating your job description and be clear that what you are asking for is to do what many others with your job description do (less travel).

      1. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

        I’m definitely hoping to bring our HR person into the busy season conversation once we hire a new HR person. It’s helpful to hear that the commentariat think that’s a reasonable next step and not an over-reaction – which is what I was worried about considering my initial conversation with old HR person.

    5. Hellyeah227*

      I have a psychiatric condition that requires ADA accommodation. Typically, you would apply through HR’s process (our HR outsourced all of the paperwork to a third party contractor.) As part of the process, your doctor would fill out a form about your diagnosis and the accommodations you require and why. At my company, the third party contractor reviewed the submitted paperwork and would send a letter to your boss about the accommodations that you were granted. (No diagnosis information was included.) In my case, I was granted extra time off to go to doctor’s appointments and for mental health time, so I would report to HR if I took a day off as part of this accommodation. If your boss won’t let you use the accommodation, you would report that to HR too.

      I did not disclose my condition to my boss and coworkers. I would just say “I have a chronic condition that is covered by the Americans with Disabilities Act. It’s not life-threatening but requires intense management and treatment. In the past, this has included hospitalizations.” There’s a broad list of things covered by the ADA, so they won’t have any idea what your condition is.

      To use your accommodation, you would just tell your boss “As we discussed, HR has granted me X accommodation under the ADA. I will need XXX and YYY on these dates as part of this accommodation. “

      1. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

        I envy the clear, step-by-step process at your employer. I hope eventually we might get a bit closer to that sort of system.

        Unfortunately, a portion of my condition (the tip of the iceberg) is pretty visible and people keep assuming it is a short-term “sports” type of injury and quizzing me on the “end date” accordingly.

        I also have an ADA-protected psychiatric condition, but I have not pushed for my desired accommodations for *that* because I am managing to perform at an acceptable level for now. One of the accommodations my boss agreed to for my physical disability should also help me manage the psychiatric condition.

    6. LNLN*

      You can get advice and accommodation request templates on the Job Accommodation Network website. They help both employees and employers. There is a lot of information on their website, but you can get advice about your own situation as well. Good luck!

  3. Typing All The Time*

    Hi all. How do you handle coworkers who try to ruin your reputation when management seems to not want to be bothered with stopping the problem?

    1. Violetta*

      You’ll need to be more specific… What are they doing, and why? What did you ask of management and why did they choose not to intervene?

      1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        Unfortunately THIS. If you have a good HR, and there are policies to back you up, you might be able to ask for mediation for bullying, but it likely won’t actually make it all better.

      2. AGD*

        Yeah, when this happened and my boss shrugged because apparently That’s Just Who Colleague Is or something like that, I decided it was time to jump ship.

      3. PT*

        Yes, because you can’t undo the damage to your reputation, even if that colleague is 100% wrong and you are 100% right.

    4. BlueBelle*

      Without knowing specifics, my biggest advice is document, document, document, document. If you hear them directly say something tell them to stop, then send an email saying “To follow up on our conversation regarding X today, I want to make sure we are both on the same page that xyz did/did not happen.” CC boss. If you hear through the rumor mill that they are talking about you, send an email to them (cc: boss) “It was brought to my attention that there has been a misunderstanding regarding X. I want to make sure that you are aware that X was completed (or whatever) on time. In the future, if you are not sure of the reason/outcome please make sure to speak to me.”
      Good luck!

      1. 30 Years in the Biz*

        Great advice! It worked for me recently. When this was happening to me and the bully went to my grandboss to complain about me, I had emails, Microsoft Team chats, and notes from interactions that supported that this person was badmouthing me and misrepresenting my demeanor and professionalism. There were also other people around who also worked with me and could support my good reputation.

    5. Generic Name*

      You take advantage of the employee side labor market and sell your services to a company where you won’t have to put up with crap like this.

    6. Daydreamer*

      Without more specifics, my answer is, in first instance, document everything. BlueBelle gives some great advice on this. CYA with a paper trail as much as you can.

      But, sadly, if your boss has shown signs of not being interested in dealing with this, it’s time to find a new job. In my experience, putting an end to behaviour like this really requires somebody higher up to put their foot down and say they won’t tolerate it. Otherwise, the saboteur tends to see they can get away with it and carries on. Sorry!

    7. tangerineRose*

      If you’re there when it happens, can you call it out? Even better if you’re on an e-mail thread and can send everyone proof .

    8. Seeking Second Childhood*

      One late thing to add in case you mean someone is talking about your *personal* reputation. All of these would be an HR matter: Your religion. Your sex life. Your choice to get married (or not), to have children (or not), to make friends of a different race/religion/sexuality. Your choice to break ties with an abusive family member.

  4. Goose*

    I had a great Zoom screen this week and already have a follow up interview scheduled. Yay! My first interviewer mentioned that she doesn’t care, but the next interviewer prefers a more formal look. I was wearing a blouse and cardigan–I’ll go with blouse and blazer next time, but are there other ways to make me look more polished/professional over Zoom? I stopped wearing makeup, and I’m afraid that might be a contributing factor.

    1. ThatGirl*

      There’s a “touch up” filter on Zoom that helps smooth out your appearance a bit, especially if you have so-so lighting. Good lighting in general can help, too. Also, if you’re anti-makeup but OK with a little touch-up, maybe some primer or tinted moisturizer, just to give your face a small boost. (I am not saying you need this, just that it might help you look more “polished” according to outdated standards.)

      Otherwise… maybe an accessory or two? (Earrings? Scarf? Necklace?) Make sure your hair is done?

    2. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

      You can check your lighting in advance – try to use lamps or desk lamps in front of you/slightly above you to give you more even/flattering lighting. For looking “formal” I like some classic jewelry – pearls, gold or silver metals, and/or simple shapes.

    3. Crazy Plant Lady*

      On Zoom/other video platforms, I would say having a tidy, uncluttered background (or using a virtual background/blur effect if that’s not possible) and good lighting (light source should be in front of your face ideally, not behind you) can really help.

    4. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Good lighting, make sure your hair is “done”, make sure the angle of your camera is straight-on your face and not above or below (no one wants an up-the-nose view). You might need to prop a laptop up on books, or on a shelf while you stand.

    5. MoreFriesPlz*

      I think hair is a big deal for video – make sure it’s neatly styled. I feel like your background is now part of your appearance (background is the new pants?) so make sure that’s as neat and undistracting as possible. I would disagree with needed to accessorize. Keep necklaces and earrings small and subtle: small studs and pendants are fine (but not necessary). Scarfs are more a fun pop of color and I defiantly wouldn’t add one if you’re trying to look more formal.

      If you have a collard shirt that might read more formal on video than some blouses. It all kind of depends what the blouse is like.

      1. Goose*

        The blouse I was wearing had a collar! (A peter pan collar, but still) That’s why I’m super conscious about this next interview

        1. Loulou*

          A Peter pan collar definitely reads a little more casual to me than other collars, so I bet switching that + adding a blazer will make a big difference!

        2. Generic Name*

          As much as I hate to say it, but Peter Pan collars can read as “child-like”. If they want formal, wear a crisp white shirt with a sharp collar, blazer, and pearls. As I type this, I am thanking my lucky stars that folks with my job title are seen as a bit “weird” and dress casually. :)

      2. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

        I agree with you on accessories, especially if they make even the slightest noise. In my experience, microphones tend to pick up the slightest thing and amplify it on the other end — so no clanky-clinky jewelry of any kind, and don’t tap on the keyboard or shuffle papers. I’ve been in so many Zoom/Teams calls where one person thinks they are quietly doing something/eating without going on mute, and all the rest of us hear is crinkle crinkle crinkle crunch crunch crunch.

    6. Observer*

      Makeup tends to be a big one. But if you don’t generally don’t do makeup, now is not the time to start.

      The things you can do are think about your hair and accessories. There are often ways you can tweak that to look more “formal”.

      1. allathian*

        Even my husband has taken to wearing tinted moisturizer, because he thinks he looks too red in the face otherwise, when he’s on video calls with external contacts. YMMV

      2. wittyrepartee*

        A little can go a long way. I don’t wear much makeup, but just putting on a bit of lip tint and brown eyeliner can do a lot (especially if you’re well lit).

    7. Notfunny.*

      Make sure you have neat looking hair and nails, maybe wear a little bit of makeup if you can muster the energy to do that, or at least appear the most groomed version of yourself? Lint brush, make sure you have no loose threads, etc.

    8. DrRat*

      I bought a cheap phone $20 tripod with a selfie ring light on it months ago and it REALLY makes a difference in how nice I look on Zoom.

    9. MissCoco*

      I love pearls for dressing up an outfit super easily, and a shorter string makes it unlikely that you’ll have issues with jingling or noise.
      I also don’t wear makeup, and having a bright light in front of me is critical to looking good on video
      I also put a lot of extra product on my hair to prevent frizz, which seems to stand out a lot, especially if you’re backlit

    10. Onthetrain*

      I don’t wear makeup usually; my skin isn’t great and wearing foundation makes it worse, but I do wear makeup for zoom calls, especially interviews. Just light foundation, powder, mascara and a little eyeliner. Otherwise the camera seems to pick up even the smallest blemish, and highlights the (natural) dark circles under my eyes, and I look way worse on screen than I do in person.
      If you can bear to, I’d suggest a little makeup for the duration of the call, and then you can scrub it off straight after!

      1. Product Person*

        I have a colleague who in internal calls uses no makeup. In a client call this eeek, the only thing she added was eyeliner, and wow! For some reason it made she look so much more “put together”. I don’t know how to describe the change, maybe it gave her face some more definition around the eyes that made her look like a serious, well-prepared professional even though she was still using a regular t-shirt like in routine calls.

        Something to keep in mind, sometimes a small change can make a big difference (especially if like my colleague you tend to look too young without makeup). I’d test screatinf a video call with just me in it, to check my appearance, and if you feel your face is too washed out, maybe try adding some tinted lip balm if you don’t have or want to use eyeliner.

  5. No Tribble At All*

    I gave notice this week!! Woo hoo!! When I told my boss I was resigning, he said “mmmkay” with the sort of disinterest you’d say when someone’s telling your their lunch plans. I’ve only been here 8 months, but jeeze, man, couldn’t you fake it a little bit?

    What bad reactions have you gotten when giving notice?

    1. Alice*

      My last manager, when I asked him if he had a moment, asked me in a joking way if I was giving notice. I said yes and he was shocked, even though I had already indicated multiple times that I was feeling unsafe working in the office with many unmasked coworkers (this was during peak pandemic) and I didn’t want to go through the internal transfer he was pushing for. It wasn’t terribly bad but it was a surreal situation.

      1. Be kind, rewind*

        Hahahaha same thing happened to me when I left my last job.
        Me: Can I talk to you in your office?
        Boss: What are you, giving your notice? /s
        Me: *awkward silence*

      2. Blomma*

        When I gave notice at my toxic job that’s basically what happened haha. I asked my manager and my supervisor for a quick meeting and as soon as we all sat down my supervisor asked something along the lines ‘what did you want to talk to us about? You’re not giving notice are you?’ And I said “well…” :D

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      When I cc’d my grand-boss on my official email stating my end date for oldjob (standard in my office), my phone rang once. Caller ID showed her number, but I didn’t pick up & she didn’t try to contact me again. (We worked in different locations, so no chance encounters.)

      To this day, I wonder what she planned to say to me. But I never cared enough to try really hard to find out.

    3. I raddish the idea of salad*

      “YOU SAID YOU WERE GOING TO RETIRE HERE!” I was a military spouse and Reservist. The organization didn’t want to hire me if I was going to move. When I said we were going to retire there, they hired me, but we changed our mind. When I gave my notice, they were blue hot. Didn’t speak to me for the two months it took them to find my replacement.

      Another – well I burned a bridge with a blowtorch and they didn’t like that ‘notice’ either

      1. Database Developer Dude*

        Burned a bridge with a blowtorch? Oh please spill the tea! I’ll give you an entire box of Thin Mints Girl Scout cookies if you do.

    4. Lady Ann*

      I worked for a place for 4 years and on my last day the owner/manager didn’t say goodbye or even acknowledge that I was leaving or that it was my last day.

      I later heard that they were mad because they thought it would take me longer to find a job after getting my degree (it was 2008 after all) and they thought they’d have more time before I left.

      1. I raddish the idea of salad*

        After I gave notice at a non-profit, my supervisor and ED never talked to me afterwards. They weren’t present on my last day either. I found something in the handbook about last day paperwork and clipped my name tag to it and left it on the ED’s desk. My co-workers were there and they said good-bye. It was a terrible and unsecured departure; I could have left with all the socials of clients, computers and passwords. That’s how inept the leadership was.

    6. HerdingCatsWouldBeEasier*

      At ToxicOldCompany, ExcellentBoss left due to ongoing awfulness from SkipLevelBoss. Despite not knowing or caring what my department did, SkipLevelBoss decided we should all report to him so we could use the money to give raises to his cronies. So, when I found AwesomeCurrentJob I had to give my notice to FormerSkipLevelBoss. His reaction to the news was to tell me he wasn’t surprised, as I was too good at my job to be working for ToxicOldCompany and he figured eventually I’d figure out how much they’d been underpaying me.

      ToxicOldCompany went bankrupt a few years ago, and there are multiple lawsuits regarding the mismanagement of the place. FormerSkipLevelBoss is listed as a defendant.

    7. cubone*

      Also giving notice next week after 8 months! Curious how you approached it – did you have an out (eg new role) or “just not a good fit” or what? They have their heads in the sand to the challenges I’ve been upfront about so I know no matter what there will be some version of shocked/confused/judgemental and I’m trying to decide how “honest” to be (not “burn bridges honest”, but just clear that I’m leaving because of the fit issues/workload or some easy out like I’m going back to school – I will be taking a course but that’s hardly the main reason, lol)

      1. shep*

        Not the OP here, but I ended up giving notice at two months at a workplace. It was a wildly bad fit for me and I went home crying more days that not. I didn’t have to say this, though, because (un)luckily during my exit interview I was able to say, quite honestly, that the meager pay was the reason I was leaving. Luckily they understood, and my former supervisor told me later that they were able to use my exit interview to leverage a huge pay increase for my previous position.

        1. shep*

          (To clarify, I still would not have stayed with that pay increase–but I am glad that the next person in that position was able to be compensated a bit more fairly.)

      2. No Tribble At All*

        So I do have a new role at a different org — I was waiting until everything was confirmed until I gave notice. I knew the role I’m leaving would be a bit of a step backwards in terms of seniority/technical complexity, but the job could be done by a reasonably determined high schooler, and the environment was pretty bad. I realized it pretty quickly that this would be a dead end. I thought I’d stick it out for a year or two and try to network my way into a better job elsewhere in the org, but the more I found out about the org, the more I saw that it had a bad culture across lots of it. I didn’t think I’d be able to find a position there that I’d enjoy.

        They haven’t set up an exit interview yet (and I’m technically a contractor, so I don’t think my supervisor has any responsibility to make one for me) but it would be difficult for me to be honest with them without burning bridges. I kinda fundamentally disagree with all their “best practices” and methods, and they clearly aren’t self-aware of their other issues. After I’d been there 6 months, my supervisor commented “You know, since Tribble joined has been the longest we’ve gone in a while without any turnover!” for a team of 9. Buddy that doesn’t raise any red flags for you? That was the week I started really job searching.

        I’d recommend being as polite as possible. After 8 months, you probably don’t have much capital, so they’re not going to value what you say. It’s unlikely they’ll change based on one person, so don’t leave with a bad impression. Say “it’s not you, it’s me” even if it’s 100% them.

        1. cubone*

          Oh wow thank you. This is …. Like eerily close to my situation lol (contractor, massive staff turnover etc). All great points and I appreciate it!

          1. No Tribble At All*

            Twinsies!!!!

            I’m starting an exciting new role with a HUGE pay increase on the 29th. So hopefully you get that part of the situation too!!

      3. I raddish the idea of salad*

        I gave notice, at my current role, at the end of three months. I don’t like the work and I didn’t ask the right questions, but I don’t think they understood the role in full detail either. They wanted both a donor database analyst and prospect researcher in one but the role is primarily database management (data entry, hygiene, reports) and very little research and prospecting which I like. In reality the roles are disparate and they’re trying to find someone who loves and can do both; I don’t love the database but I can do it. Plus they weren’t great at teaching me and gave me a horrible project that killed my soul and esteem bringing me to this point.

        I’m staying on, three months post notice to support through the mad holiday fundraising season while they hire someone. They’ve interviewed several people but didn’t like any of them.

    8. often trapped under a cat*

      At my first job, after 6 years, I gave notice to my boss–who had replaced the person who had hired me about three years earlier–and she said, “that’s okay, you can leave today.”

      Which meant I was in the office until around 8 PM, writing up “here’s the status of this project” memos for everything I was working on. I was so tired that I walked out and left all my personal possessions behind. I can back a week later after confirming that my entire department was at lunch and cleared out my office.

      Obviously there were no goodbyes; to the rest of the company, I simply vanished.

      1. Cold Fish*

        You are a better person than I. I would have spent the day packing up my things and they could figure out project statuses on their own!

        1. often trapped under a cat*

          Older, wiser me would have done that, but I was barely 25 and in my first office job, and felt responsible to my clients.

    9. Green Goose*

      I worked a large daycare about a decade ago and I learned pretty quickly after I started that the charming owner who interviewed me was a pretty scary person. Pretty much the whole staff was afraid of her and it seeped into our day-to-day and just made it pretty unpleasant. She would travel out of the country every year and I ended up needing to give notice to her second in command while she was gone.

      He said in a half-joking way, “you better sleep with one eye open!”

      And I had sort of fibbed about why I was leaving, I said I was going to graduate school the next month but my program wasn’t starting for about two months and I was just so unhappy that I needed to leave then. Over a month later I was at our local mall getting something and when I came out of a store I saw the empty parking lot with my car and the owners car parked right next to mine! It definitely freaked me out and I felt like it was her way of trying to scare me or maybe a coincidence but I booked it out of there.

    10. Alex*

      My last job–my manager tried to argue with me to get me to extend my notice period by WEEKS because “We won’t be able to hire someone at what we pay who does as much as you do.”

      Well hmmmm……I wonder why I’m quitting? So mysterious!

      2. JelloStapler*

        I heard through the grapevine later that my former boss told someone else they had to re-classify my old position down to make the low pay match the job description, they knew they would not be able to hire to keep another person with my degree and experience with what HR would let them pay.

    11. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I got called into a meeting with my supervisor, the owner and his wife (small business) and he proceeded to try enumerate why leaving was a terrible idea and all that I was losing out on — like pen/paper/calculator trying to crunch the numbers with me so I could see how silly I was being. When I started to list the new benefits of where I was going, he grudgingly conceded I was much better off with silly things like full health/dental/vision insurance, a retirement plan, 2 weeks/yr paid vacation plus 2 weeks sick/yr, in addition to all federal holidays off/paid… none of which he offered at all.

    12. Transient Hamster*

      I left a job of almost 14 years. When I gave my notice to my boss, whom I’d worked closely with all of those years, he just shrugged and said, “It happens.” Then he asked me to hold off on telling the rest of the admin staff until he figured out a plan so I wouldn’t cause a panic. No problem. He then proceeded to tell them while I was out at lunch that day and I came back to an awkward, frosty reception from my co-workers. I’m still kinda annoyed about that last part.

    13. LL*

      2 years into my first full-time job I ended up doing two jobs unofficially for the salary of the lower position, so I initiated several conversations with my manager and grandboss about a promotion. They said the company wasn’t big enough to accommodate promoting me and basically offered me a desk in a nicer part of the office.

      So I started job searching and when I gave notice, my manager at first said she was happy for me, and when it sunk in, she launched into a 15-minute tirade about how I betrayed her even when she had gone to bat for me (the nicer desk). She ended up screaming, and the whole office could hear and see it through her glass window. I took it all wordlessly since this behavior was normal for her. I left 2 weeks later, glad to be out of there.

    14. Ripley*

      I worked at a library for a year and a half. Every four to five months, the director would purse her lips, shake her head, and say, “I don’t know if we’re going to have the budget to keep you here for much longer.” This was pretty jarring for me, so I began looking for other jobs. After giving notice, she told me, “Your timing really sucks!” Well, pardon me for leaving on my schedule and not yours!

      3. DrRat*

        Now I’m picturing Ted Lance “as Your Bartender” doing finger guns for the beginning intro of The Love Boat. And giggling.

    16. Confused Anon*

      No response from Grandboss, certain coworkers ignored me/acted weird when I came by their area. People from other departments would look at me, but not saying anything. Certain people gave me a high five that I was leaving, lol. On the last day, boss told me to say goodbye to people, FOLLOWED me around as I did, and then escorted me out of the building. (Literally followed me to the door. Surprised she didn’t walk me to my darn car!) Other people didn’t experience this. So glad I’m outta there. (Funny part? 6 months later, boss left for a new job!)

      1. the cat's ass*

        Oldjob was shocked when i gave notice. “But we’re faaaamily.” NO, we are NOT. My main boss went around butt hurt, the two principles i worked with ignored me. Main boss walked my out to my car for the last time in tears, stating, ‘this is a terrible mistake.” I got in my car and said, ‘not for me it’s not!”

    17. Pop*

      When I gave notice, my boss said “How did you get that job? I heard it was really competitive!” (It was at a partner organization, and someone he provided a reference for hadn’t gotten it.) I’m sure it was just surprise that I was leaving, but despite him not recognizing it, I AM good at my job!

    18. LoraC*

      She couldn’t stop smiling. Immediately cancelled all our meetings, took over the rest of my work and claimed credit for it. We never talked to each other again after I broke the news.

      I’d only been there for 6 months and the two hires before me only lasted 3-4 months. The person we were all supposed to replace had been there for years, was miserable, and wrote a very angry review on glassdoor after he left.

    19. Jack Bruce*

      Not a very bad reaction, but a “Well, I guess the next few months will be VERY busy for me!” said by my boss, upon my giving a generous month’s notice. Too bad, micromanager, you being busy was never my problem and became even less so when I handed over that letter.

    20. Tris Prior*

      This was years ago – I gave notice to my boss and he took it fine BUT there was much consternation about how to inform the company owner, who, to put it charitably, was a very emotionally volatile and unstable person and my main reason for leaving. It was a small enough company that i had to work directly with her sometimes. She was out of town at the time, and HR instructed me to tell NO ONE else that I was leaving because “we have to figure out how to manage the process around telling her so that she doesn’t get upset.”

      I decided eff that, that’s not my problem and I am done managing this woman’s emotions, and promptly told my team. I asked that they not tell Owner, and they were more than happy to comply, and it was fine.

      When Owner finally got back, she cornered me by the copiers and burst into loud hysterical tears and begged me to stay. I declined and tried not to laugh too hard in her face or say out loud “see, THIS is why I am leaving, I cannot manage your emotions any longer.”

      She also immediately pulled me off of my current project because I was going to a competitor so of course would immediately spill all company secrets re this project to them. OH DARN, what terrible punishment, how dare you take me off of this disaster of a project that had me working double my usual hours for months on end and put me on easy work for my notice period! :D

    21. RagingADHD*

      At my last office job, I worked for a team where I supported a senior partner and an associate, so Sr boss and Jr boss. Jr boss despised me (to be fair, he despised everyone including himself, so there wasn’t much to be done about it.) But Sr boss thought I hung the moon, so that’s all I cared about.

      Anyway, the day I gave notice, the unmitigated delight on Jr boss’s face was…a sight to behold. He said all the right social words about wishing me the best for my endeavors, etc, but with an unbridled enthusiasm that I hadn’t seen from him on any other topic. Not even when he was showing pictures of a once in a lifetime international vacation with his adorable children.

      He just couldn’t wait to be rid of me, and he was thrilled.

      (I heard they couldn’t keep anyone else in that position until he was gone.)

    22. Anne of Green Gables*

      When I left my previous job, I was on a team of two where the only full time people were me and my direct report and we worked pretty closely together. When I told him I was leaving, the first thing he said was, “Does that mean you don’t need to go to such-and-such meeting this afternoon? Because I want to go home.” Turns out he was sick and hadn’t called out because he covered the desk when I was at a larger monthly leadership meeting. Once he felt better, I teased him about the lack of “oh, I’ll miss you” or similar. It still comes up from time to time, because I actually hired the same employee at my current workplace about 6 months later. (And once I knew he was sick, I sent him home that day.)

    23. Pharma Isn't All Evil*

      My boss at ToxicOldJob was overheard by my entire department saying that she regretted hiring me (after I had called in sick one day). I was actively job searching, so it was no problem when I gave notice. She just said “good”. I’ve been at AwesomeJob two years now and it is excellent and I am appreciated.

    24. working mom*

      I called my manager to give her my notice, as we were both working remotely. When she came into the office the next day, she walked in, started yelling and throwing things at the wall near my head. She knew why I was leaving (upper management issues) and was upset. She barely spoke to me the entire two weeks’ notice.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          After reading AAM for so long I hope I’d now have the calmness to ask if that means she’d rather I leave today instead of wrapping up my prohjects.

    25. Dumpster Fire Survivor*

      My first job out of college was….A LOT. My field is a rather niche field, and I had no idea how to gauge professional norms in my field. I knew I was unhappy, but I put up with a lot because I was told it was normal and I should be grateful to have a job in the first place.

      5+ years after starting and 2 years after looking, I finally got a new job. I put in my 2 weeks notice, which is fairly standard. My boss at the time told me that it was “unprofessional” of me to just give 2 weeks notice, and 4 is expected. That’s not true.

      It gets better. After I started at the new job, I gloated a bit on social media about how I was happy to be working with professionals who take part in national organizations in my field. The wife of my boss’ boss send me a private message, whining about how I should again be “grateful” that her husband “took a chance” on a new graduate like me. Needless to say I am SO GLAD I am out of there!

    26. Daydreamer*

      Not exactly a bad reaction but one that left me a bit speechless was ‘is it about the money’. I’d been sort of unintentionally baited and switched into the job – think leading on a project which I think they genuinely wanted as described but then finding out once there that there was no buy in from grandboss to hire the trained staff the project needed, not being given the tools I needed to actually do the project because nobody else understood why said tools were necessary, and having a set of KPIs which didn’t match what I had been led to believe the project was trying to achieve – and had very clearly raised these concerns with the manager I handed my notice to.

      I think I muttered something like ‘No, no, it isn’t’ in the end.

    27. Choggy*

      I wonder, is your job the type where employees generally leave less than a year after starting? If so, maybe he is just used to it, so his response was lackluster?

    28. Florida Fan 15*

      This didn’t happen to me because I haven’t left yet, but when anyone would give notice to my old boss, he would would pull out the office group picture and mark through the person’s face. Right then, in front of them.

    29. Bluebell*

      One of my first jobs, my boss was kind and level headed, but the Associate Director, who I told afterwards, burst into tears.
      For a job not so long ago, where I had a bumpy relationship with the overly emotional boss, they told me that my 6 weeks notice “might not be enough” and then added that they had been just about to tell me they were planning to hire someone over me. In the end, a former colleague let me know it took 15 months to hire my replacement, and the replacement started 8 weeks after that.

    30. Speaks to Dragonflies*

      I told my last boss that I had accepted another job offer and he said that “They didn’t make counter offers. If someone thought they could better themselves somewhere else, they didn’t want to hold them back.” I guess he thought I was trying to finagle a raise out of them and he thought he was calling my bluff. Such a wonderful shocked Pikachu face when I replied with “That’s good to hear. My last day is next Friday.”

    31. WoodswomanWrites*

      I worked at a nonprofit for a decade and when I resigned, virtually everyone was really encouraging and supportive of my good news, from board members to managers to colleagues. My colleagues gave me a nice going away party. However, one board member was so angry that they called me berated me over the phone. It was terrible. I complained to my manager, who informed the CEO, who appropriately called me to say I didn’t deserve that.

    32. LifeBeforeCorona*

      I worked for almost 3 years at the same job while I was going to school. I never missed a day and stayed late when necessary to finish my work or help my co-workers. We were hit with a bad winter storm and as soon as I left my driveway I almost went into a ditch because the roads weren’t plowed. Rather than drive an hour on unplowed roads in the middle of a major snowstorm, I called in. The owner was furious. I was about to graduate anyway so I started looking for another job and found one right away. I gave my 2 weeks notice and then they kept asking me to extend my notice because they couldn’t find anyone willing to work the hours. After I left a former co-worker told me they churned through 3 or 4 people before finally finding someone who would stay longer than a month. It was when I got a similar job that I realized just how much I was working.

    33. Baloney*

      My former manager gave me a leftover half a sandwich after our final team meeting that I would be at (and the last time she would see me since I worked at a different site than her). As she handed it to me, she specifically called it my “goodbye present.” I didn’t need a present AT ALL nor was I expecting anything but to be given the only half sandwich leftover from lunch was just insulting.

    34. eisa*

      Not directly like that, but a funny story :

      Some time ago, I got a notification from LinkedIn like “look at this job they are now hiring for!”
      … The post office was looking for people to deliver mail.
      I found that amusing, because I am a) not really fit enough to do it (in my city, it involves going around all day pushing a heavy cart) and b) somewhat overqualified for it,
      So I took a screenshot and sent it to some friends with the subject line “Look at this great job offer I got from LinkedIn!”

      Due to inattention on my part and Outlook auto-complete, one of the actual recipients was not Susan-my-friend but Susan-my-friendly-coworker.
      Next thing, Susan-from-work replied all “Awww ! Can’t say I blame you, but I’ll miss you, hope we will see each other before you leave !”

      (No, she was not making a joke or being snarky, I think she had not looked closely at what the great offer really was)

      I don’t have anything to contribute to the actual question; the only time I gave notice I remember as unspectacular. The writing was on the wall there anyway; a year after I left, they closed the whole department.

      Not much of a job-hopper, me..
      Never been let go either (touch wood) and my only active job search was right after uni, like 28 years ago.

      Searched for quite a while after uni (with equivalent of master’s degree in a STEM field), job market was really bad at the time. I sort-of-fondly remember the old-fashioned grocery store I worked at to tide me over ..

      Found FirstJob
      Coworker Fergus from FirstJob left, went to Company X.
      Fergus contacted me whether I wanted to work for X too.
      Looked at it, finally decided against it.
      Met classmate Jon from uni in the tram, at the time working for VeryLarge,VeryDullCompany. He told me he was looking to change. I told him “X is hiring.” – Jon applied, went to work for X.

      A year later, Jon contacted me, asked me to come to work at X. That time, I did.
      Fergus had already left there in the meantime.
      Anyway, it was fantastic, still hankering after it ..
      Sadly, five years later X folded.
      RatherLarge,RatherDullCompany took an interest in X’ product, bought the IP and offered jobs to everyone. Some of us, including me, accepted. Still there now.

    35. BBB the cabinet builder*

      When I gave my two weeks’ notice (good fun job/toxic management) both supervisor and manager looked at me and said, “okay.” Next day the schedule changed to move me to night shift, working alone, for my final week. Yeah, guess who changed her notice to one week?

    36. Recent Resignation*

      I recently resigned from my job of 4.5 years. My boss was not in his office most of the day so I waited around after everyone else had left for the day. He came back about 10 minutes after and asked why I was still at the office. I responded “I need to talk to you” and he said “You’re quitting. I don’t want to talk about it” and walked into his office……

  6. Jane the wanderer*

    At the beginning of January I started a new job with the government. (I took this job because my previous one required me to work long hours and overtime – I was working 80 to 100 hours a week and it was affecting my marriage and my relationship with my kids and my spouse was ready to leave. My marriage and kids are back on track and I’m happier and so is my family. I hope to work here until retirement). I’ve been a manager before but this is the first time I have managed unionized employees. It is different than what I’m used to. Some examples:

    -I cannot promote, give more responsibilities or change job duties or upgrade titles. Job descriptions and titles are set as part of the collective agreement and all union jobs have hiring procedures. People can’t be promoted without a competition

    -I can’t give vacation time, extra days off or monetary bonuses. Again vacation time and salary is determined by the collective agreement

    -If someone comes in late I can’t just tell them to make up the time later. Their pay gets docked and overtime isn’t allowed because we don’t have the budget and it never gets approved. We are actively told overtime is not approved. I also can’t allow work to be done outside of business hours. Even if an employee wants to that’s a violation of the collective agreement. I’m not even allowed to contact my employees if they are off or it is outside of business hours. I was warned about this because the union takes it seriously. I can’t let people leave early or adjust their hours

    -If there is a job opening they first have to look at the transfer list to see if anyone of the same classification, then anyone who has the correct skills is on the list. If not they look internally before externally. Anyone who applies who meets the qualifications does what tests (Microsoft proficient, math proficieny, software proficiency etc). Whichever applicants passed the testing get invited to an interview. Then out of whichever people pass the interview the job goes to the person with the highest seniority. The tests and the interview are pass/fail. For internal jobs they don’t ask for references for union members and I’m not allowed to give my thoughts to the manager whose team the job is on

    -Employees have a file where any write ups or discipline go in. Managers who have an opening can look in those files but they can’t talk to the current manager

    -I can tell my boss an employee did well (ie John was great helping that client or Jane worked hard on XYZ) but it doesn’t get recorded anywhere, they don’t get an award or a bonus or anything.

    -So besides telling my employees good job I have no way to reward them. Now, all of my reports have been with the government between 12 and 29 years and on this team for 10 to 24 years. So they are used to things and happy with how things are. I am not anti-union. I think they are great and moral is higher here then at my last job. I’m also much happier here.

    Any tips for a manager who can’t do anything for her employees besides saying good job? I’m still unlearning habits from my past job so it still feels weird to me.

      1. Jane the wanderer*

        Currently I am not due to the pandemic rules. Right now everyone does one a day a week in office to do tasks that can’t be done remotely. I’ll look into bringing food once the rules are lifted. I would have to pay out of pocket but it’s something I totally can do. Thank you for your suggestion.

      3. Lizy*

        I was gonna say the same. Food always is good.

        Depending on your team’s culture, what about flex stuff in terms of “other” events? For example, OldJob was HUGE into March madness. They’d have TVs going non-stop during the tournaments. It wasn’t mandatory or anything, and no one sat down for 2 hours to watch a game, but staff were able to pop in and out to check scores or watch a couple of minutes. If it was a close game towards the end, there would be a small group that would watch until it was finished. If there were cheers (or groans) no one said anything, and staff liked the fun atmosphere.

        Other ideas could be silly things such as “hey y’all worked hard on project X so tomorrow afternoon we’re going to have a coloring contest” – provide some adult coloring books and colored pencils and let it be known that the day is basically a slacker day. No one HAS to participate in coloring – it’s more the idea that you can take a well-deserved break.

        Or do a coffee/smoothie/drink run. Mix it up so everyone has a chance to get their favorite fancy drink.

        For food – I know sometimes it can get expensive. Do smaller things instead. For busy times, having snacks available can be a good way of showing staff you care, especially if they can’t get away from the office for lunch. Rotate ice cream sundae bar, healthy snacks like cheese and crackers or veggie trays, chocolate everything…

    2. Colette*

      I’d say focus on specific feedback – not “good job”, but “thank you for handling that angry customer, I was really impressed with the way you listened to him and helped him calm down, and by the quick way you solved his problem.” “I was looking at the ticket you handled, and was impressed with how clearly you documented the problem. If this happens again, the next person will have an easier time fixing it thanks to your diligence.”

      2. uncivil servant*

        Absolutely. My husband and I both work in union environments and he’s most jealous that my supervisors monitor my work and appreciate my strengths. He works in healthcare and it really feels like as long as he doesn’t kill a patient, no one cares about his clinical skills. At his last performance review, the only positive feedback was on not abusing sick leave. I obviously don’t know if he’s good at his job but I know that he takes a lot of pride in his clinical skills, and not getting any recognition is demoralizing.

    3. LCS*

      I manage a union and also a non-union team. Options for the both groups include:
      – Reserve some time in your team / departmental meetings to formally recognize strong performance or particular improvement initiatives
      – Are there things that your team is doing that other similar teams could learn from? Write it up and share it with other relevant stakeholders, crediting the key folks.
      – Something as simple as bringing in coffee & donuts as a general morale booster or to highlight something that’s gone well.
      – I’m a big fan of personal handwritten thank you cards. These mean more to people than you may think. More than once I’ve seen cards that I wrote literally years ago still posted at people’s desks.
      – Give people flexibility where you can – treat them like adults and valued colleagues, not just interchangeable bodies. Is there a dress code that you can adapt that’s stricter than it needs to be? Is there a way to allow some flex within the system around lunch and break times to better suit the needs of individuals?

      1. Observer*

        On that note, I’m a bit confused about “If someone comes in late I can’t just tell them to make up the time later. Their pay gets docked and overtime isn’t allowed because we don’t have the budget and it never gets approved.” Telling someone to work this hour instead of that hour is not over time. Perhaps you could get some clarity on that?

        1. Jane the wanderer*

          Sorry for the confusion.

          Say an employee arrives 15 minutes late. At my other management jobs I would just say work another 15 minutes past your end time to make up the time. No docking of pay or discipline. Now I can’t ask an employee to work past their end time because it’s both against the collective agreement. So they would my late employee gets docked the 15 minutes. They have no chance to make it up to avoid being docked. Hope this clears things up.

        2. Loulou*

          It could be that hours worked after a certain time are automatically coded as overtime even if the employee only worked 7 hours.

        3. Fellow Traveller*

          In my union, it is written into the CBA that the working day ends at a certain hour (10pm) and if you work past 10pm you are paid at time and a half. Also the day cannot begin before 6:30pm so you can’t have them work if they show up early too.

        4. Iron Chef Boyardee*

          I’m in a civil service gig with a union. If we’re late the time is deducted from our time and leave. If we don’t have any time and leave left, then our paychecks get docked.

      2. N.J.*

        Along the lines of what you suggested. I used to have a boss that would write positive, specific feedback on these little tear drop shapes and call them “a drop in your bucket.” The concept and shapes were from a website, and it was a little “cute” but I actually really appreciated it. Something like that could go with the handwritten card idea.

        1. Nynaeve*

          One thing I have learned from being in charge of morale at a place with restrictions much like Jane describes, though it’s non-union, is that the stuff that seems super corny or trite in a planning meeting ALWAYS goes over better with the staff than you think it will. In some ways, the cornier the better. And I have gotten very good at doing morale stuff on a shoestring budget.

          Laminated cards, sometimes in specific shapes or with fun pictures, for everyone who goes above and beyond X-metric in a specific week or month are always a big hit. And I still see ones on people’s desk from years ago, proudly displayed. For awhile, pre-COVID, we did literal trading cards that we made up and gave out randomly for specific achievements and people would actually trade them to try and get a complete set. It was fun.

          Also, snacks and candy if you can afford it, themed dress-up days, more involved food activities (when allowed) like sundae bars, pancake bars, popcorn, hot cocoa, etc. all go over really well and aren’t too expensive.

    4. Observer*

      So besides telling my employees good job I have no way to reward them

      Don’t be dismissive of this. Letting people know that you see their good work is enormous. And, follow the advice that @Colette Gives on HOW to do that.

      Also, make your behavior such that your employees rarely need to talk to their union rep. Not in a way that the Union is Bad, but just that things run well enough and you are enough of a resource that they can come to you when anything comes up.

      Like, if someone needs an ADA accommodation work with them on it, and help them deal with whatever paperwork needs to be done. And go to bat for them if necessary.

    5. The Dude Abides*

      If they’re good at their job, then make it clear that you are there if needed, but otherwise do your best not to interfere with the day-to-day unless something isn’t as it should be.

      If your predecessor is reachable, then strike up a conversation with that person and pick their brain.

      If stuff is coming down from on high, do your best to keep your reports in the loop as much as you can.

      Also, Charlotte is right, free food is always welcomed.

      I will also be following this thread closely, as soon I probably will be managing the unit I left earlier this year.

    6. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      I also manage a team in a highly unionized environment. What you describe is all very normal. I was reading, expecting the next bullet to be something egregious… but nope, all normal! I agree with the suggestion to be very specific in your verbal praise, which makes it more meaningful. I don’t love the food idea because of COVID right now, but I also would warn you (regardless of your gender) of taking on a parent-proxy/nurturing role. As a woman and a manager of 15 folks, I feel like there is a subtle drift toward this, at least in my group. My other suggestion would be to schedule one on ones with each of the staff (direct reports and skip level) to discuss their career goals and brainstorm how you can support them in reaching them. That will help build a relationship, and also help you get a better read on them as individuals. Some people won’t want to have this meeting because they don’t have career “goals” – they’re happy where they are and looking forward to retirement, and that’s fine.

    7. Forty Years in The Hole*

      Ah, “Public Service”… Do you have some sort of merit-based, vetted, official/internal rewards and recognition program? Something like a ED/DG/CEO-signed certificate, medallion or plaque? A yearly/quarterly town hall, where your employees could be publicly recognized by management and peers. An organization-wide newsletter where folks can be written up in a “well done to…” column?
      If there is a long service-type award scheme (for 10, 15, 25 yrs etc), make sure you initiate that thru HR for timely presentation. It’s not quite the same as rewarding for “job well done” but your employees who have been there for literally decades may get jaded with no recognition at all. Being unionized doesn’t mean there can’t be some sort of non-financial reward (keeping in mind some rewards/“gifts” may have tax implications, depending where you are)
      Yay union…(been there, done that, on both sides).

    8. Kathenus*

      I used to manage union employees in a very strong union situation, and remember all of this! The absolute best advice I have is document, document, document. That’s the good and the bad. Make sure you note on performance reviews or wherever the good stuff your employees do so it’s part of the written record – even if you can’t give them anything tangible along with it at the time – in many environments it can help with future promotions or opportunities.

      And most definitely document anything and everything for your employees who are not doing well, because it is the only thing in a strong union environment that you have to help manage them out if needed.

      You also have to be very consistent, you can’t ding a ‘bad’ employee for something but let someone else do the same thing and not note it. In addition to verbal praise to the employee and about them to others when appropriate (which as others have mentioned can be a strong reinforcement for some high performers), I was able to use performance as one factor in deciding on things like professional development opportunities or lead roles on internal projects.

      Lastly, if your management has any history of not enforcing the contract, or parts of it, at all or consistently between people, talk to a labor lawyer and find out how to ‘reset’ expectations. We did this, and in our case it was pretty simple. We noted, in writing, to the union leadership that XX part of the contract had not been enforced, or enforced consistently, in the past – but that starting YY date it would be. And from there we were able to start enforcing it again without having to deal with union pushback over ‘past practice’. I’ve seen union environments be held hostage to bad past practice, and was shocked how easy it was for us to reset the expectations legally on this.

      Unions have really positive and negative aspects both for members and managers – I’ve been on both sides personally over my career. But one thing they can be is pretty predictable due to the contract/collective bargaining agreement – learn it and follow it closely and consistently – and there is actually more power within it to help long-term with both great and not great employees than some people think.

    9. Nonny*

      You could always put up a suggestion box or similar (anonymous Google form maybe) and just … ask them what would be helpful or increase their happiness at work :)

    10. Stephivist*

      Government here too. My office does have a system to give time off awards, so I’m a bit ahead of you there, but here are a few other things I’ve done that have been successful. The key is to make sure it isn’t just a one time thing – keep it up and make it part of the environment. Also, one caveat here is that most of these assume you can afford to subsidize this out of your own pocket.

      – Food. Not exactly the best thing right now with COVID, but anything that you can bring in pre-wrapped will still be appreciated. I keep our break room stocked in oatmeal, little jams, and granola bars. Treating the team to pizza was always appreciated in the past and is something that doesn’t hurt the wallet too much. Also, don’t underestimate the importance of just spending a meal time together. Even if you are just doing a group order somewhere and not treating, the downtime is helpful.

      – Goodie bags. That sounds childish, but I’m talking about some little bags of candy, snacks, tea, coffee, etc. that you can give during a stressful time or at the conclusion of a big project. I recently did this when we returned to the office more regularly and it was much appreciated. I always try to include at least one non-food item. Since I buy in bulk, it usually costs around $10-$12 per employee for a good selection of items. I’ll add that I was very much against doing this kind of things in my previous managerial job b/c I didn’t want to take on that stereotypical role. There is very little other option in government however, so I’ve found a level I’m comfortable with.

      – Share good news/gratitude/etc. with your higher-ups to brag on your staff. For particularly successful work, ask your boss (or higher) to send an email recognizing the staff.

      – Institute your own office awards. I know one manager who gives everyone a fun award at their holiday party every year (best whatever, most something, etc.). Your staff will have to be into this kind of stuff though – it isn’t for everyone.

      – Grab on to any little flexibility you can offer. It sounds like you are pretty locked down, but anything you can given them some latitude on, try to do it. It is always appreciated, as is an acknowledgement of the impact of the restrictions.

    11. Siege*

      Are gift cards considered monetary bonuses? I work for a union and am unionized through a different union, so my situation is a bit different, since we are salaried and our CBA has different provisions. My boss has occasionally sent out $10-$15 gift cards for an extra thanks. Usually it’s to Kroger or Safeway since they’re union. The idea is that we can get lunch with that card as thanks.

      1. The Dude Abides*

        It is very much dependent on government policy and the union CBA. In my union, this is a huge no-no if upper management finds out.

        1. Siege*

          Yeah, I’m not in government, so I thought that was likely the case, but gift cards sometimes have this weird non-monetary status when they’re for a nominal amount like that.

    12. Missb*

      The part about non-flexible work hours sucks. My union/government job allows me to set my work start time and end time. For example, I can work 4-ten hour days, or 3-twelve hour days plus 1 four hour day or 5-eight hour days. I can start at the crack of dawn and end in the early afternoon. During weeks where I have a lot of personal appointments (dr, whatever), I can flex my time Monday-Sunday as long as I put in my 40 hour week and document what time I worked on my e-time sheet.

      My boss does one-on-one check-ins with all of their employees each month. It’s an hour long, scheduled in advance. They have a team of 15 employees so it works fine for them to give up that 15 hours a month to make sure we’re on track and have what we need to do our jobs. It’s a great hour to go over current projects, forecast any bumps in the road ahead and note processes that are not currently working. I know from talking with my boss each month that they are happy with what I am doing. The feedback doesn’t need to be direct – it just helps me to stay in touch with them once a month to go over things so no one is caught unaware of what I’m doing and how I’m doing it.

      Grandboss at one time had a suggestion box where you could write up a kudos for a coworker. If grandboss chose to recognize the kudos, the coworker got a 5×7 handwritten note from grandboss, thanking them for their specific work and noting how appreciative they were of the efforts. It was a nice touch, but honestly the box didn’t last long.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      Say “thank you” as you say “good night” when they leave. Even after a crappy day it sets a good tone for the next day.

      There are odd things that come up that you can do. I worked under similar rules. Twice the bosses helped me with my broken down car. I picked up a pet (baby- 6 weeks old) on the way to work that I was adopting, the boss helped me keep it safe during the work day. Other things were done, for example, if something was old yet still useful was to be thrown out, we were allowed to take it home. If an employee needed a week off, but only had 4 days covered the boss would jump in and show the employee how to get that 5th day covered. (By legit means, of course. Upset can cause the brain not to compute things very well. Thinking along with the distressed person can be super supportive.) In bad snow storms the people with the longest drives were allowed to sneak out 10-15 minutes early. This can mean that much more of their ride is done in daylight instead of after dark.

      Most of these things are tied to a specific situation, but you will find as you go along everyone has something that could use an extra hand.

      Make sure the workloads are fair. Just because Jane can do twice as much in the same time than anyone else, does not mean she should have to!

      Safety training. Not everyone knows how a fire extinguisher works. But there are other examples of things people should know. Don’t assume people know how to throw a breaker or turn off the water to an over flowing toilet.

      Make sure people have the supplies and equipment they need for their jobs. It’s not fun begging for pens. It’s misery to work with a slow computer. It’s hell knowing the computer could be replaced but the boss doesn’t do it.

      Don’t gossip. This translates into do not talk about other people who are not present. It’s a very rigid definition of gossiping- but they will notice that you do not gossip and quickly figure out that they should not be gossiping either.

      1. Also Cute and Fluffy!*

        The computers in my workplace are over ten years old. I can vouch for the fact that it is misery to work on a slow computer.

    14. CheeryO*

      State government supervisor here… this is all very normal! Chances are your long-term employees are fine with the system as-is. Presumably the benefits are worth the rigidity. Here are a few thoughts:

      -Positive feedback is still nice, even when it doesn’t come with a bonus.
      -Think about what you CAN do for people in terms of career development, not what you can’t do. Can you give them an interesting project or task as a reward for good work? Can you pay for them to go to a conference?
      -People above mentioned food, which I’d give a hearty +1 to, but nice coffee/tea go a long way too.
      -If your reports are birthday people, a birthday treat and card is always appreciated.
      -On flex hours, can your staff charge time in small increments? We are very flexible with approving small amounts of leave time, so if someone needs to charge an hour for an appointment or to leave early, it’s no big deal. As an employee, I honestly prefer it that way – I have plenty of PTO, and I don’t really want to make up time by staying late anyway.

      The fact that you’re thinking about this stuff means you’ll be a great government manager. Please don’t get discouraged by the rules and red tape!

    15. Green great dragon*

      Praise them to your boss and to their peers and to anyone else you can find (if deserved, of course!), in their hearing. Try to give them ‘ownership’ of their work – be supportive of course, but as far as possible, agree with them what is needed, then let them decide how to do it unless they ask for advice, and get them to present it to others when it’s done.

      Say thank you. If possible, be specific. Consider effort *and* ability. (One of our poorest performers got a small bonus while on a PIP, once. Because he went above and beyond to do [specific task] for a customer.)

    16. Ssqueakrad*

      We are very different people as I don’t see a problem with any of those . People in government jobs trade off easier mobility for stability.

    17. coffee*

      I am presuming you all enjoy better work-life balance, so make sure you’re supporting that (e.g. don’t send emails at 5pm saying you’ll discuss it at 9am tomorrow, give them some thinking time in work hours).

      There’s been research that people report more satisfaction with their jobs where they have a) at least some control over what they are doing when, and b) a sense of “psychological safety” (the belief that one can speak up without risk of punishment or humiliation). Those are both things that a manager has a lot of influence on.

  7. Potatoes gonna potate*

    Advice on questioning/negotiating a pay cut?

    I’m a contractor for my former employer. I get $80 per hour. They sent out their renewed contracts for us to sign and it said $50 per hour. I emailed the director of the program Bc I had multiple questions about the contract; regarding the pay, he said The $80 was only for this past year. All contractors are paid $50 per hour.

    I talked to at least 2 people, and both said their rate stayed the same, they were getting $50 last year and will be next year. So I am getting a pay cut.

    This is my first time as a contractor. Tbh I was pissed about it, I’ve calmed down now, BUT quitting and finding something else isn’t an option for me right now because there are other advantages to working there.

    Advice on how to negotiate or at least plead my case without coming across like I want to flip a table?

    1. ThatGirl*

      Wow, that’s a BIG paycut. Did you ask the director if there was any chance of putting it back where it was, or at least making the cut not so drastic?

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        That’s what I want to ask – how to get it close to what it was – posted here on how to negotiate successfully for it

        1. ThatGirl*

          Right — I was just curious if you had already brought it up at all.
          If not, I would just start there. “I was not prepared for this pay cut; you agreed that my work was worth $80/hr previously. Is there any way we can get it back up there?”
          Similar to how you’d negotiate at a new job, except you know they can pay it.

    2. mcl*

      Do you have a copy of your previous contract? Were there any statements laid out as to why the rate was $80/hr?

    3. Reba*

      Unfortunately if you aren’t willing to walk, you’re not really negotiating from a position of strength. (and it sounds like they aren’t interested in negotiating anyway!) Is there any way you could find out why you were getting a higher than others rate last year? or what did they say about that? Maybe there is something there to hang an argument on. Do you know what the FTE salary would be for an equivalent position? you could calculate an appropriate contract hourly rate based on that.

      And I mean, as a contractor you are supposed to set your rates (or at least, have a genuine negotiation where you agree to it!). But I know this isn’t always reality, in fact it never was for me in 3 different jobs I’ve had on contract.

      You could say that your performance is worth it and you are actually more experienced than this time a year ago! Or if you provide something more than comparable FTE’s or other contractors, point that out.

      Ugh! That’s really crappy.

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        a FTE doing similar work is around $55-60k no bonus. But they also have a million other things to do and a lot more client interactions, and hybrid remote & in office. And 60 hours a week

        When the opportunity came up, it sounded great to me so I took it , didn’t feel a need to negotiate.

        As a contractor, I’m limited to literally just doing one thing – and if clients ask anything outside of that I can’t advise them on it. Im eligible for a bonus (however small) And I’m 100% remote. Those are the advantages for me which is why I’m reluctant to leave

    4. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      Sorry, you have to be ready to walk. It’s unacceptable to spring an almost 50% pay cut on you, contractor or not.

      2. Potatoes gonna potate*

        The new contract goes in to effect in January. I think I have time to look at other options.

    5. Annony*

      If the other people you talked to were paid $50 last year while you were paid $80, can you think of a good argument why you are worth $30/hr more? That will be your strongest argument.

    6. Prospect Gone Bad*

      It’s a big decrease, but it doesn’t sound like a bad gig? My ego would be bruised and the decrease in income would hurt, but it still seems good, especially since you’re still in line with everyone else.

      Leaving may feel good in the moment, but doesn’t even prove a point to management, since they’re still paying you the same as others.

      I’d think about it from a general perspective – you have a job in your hand that pays well and fairly. You have experience and some clout there, and the convenience of not needing to get to know a new company and system and rules. This stuff is all worth a lot, don’t throw it away.

      Especially since the $80 seems like a lot. One of my mother’s friends does consulting at the IRS after retiring from there, I know she was making $45/hr in 2010 which is close to $60 today. Just a data point to consider.

    7. Deanna Troi*

      Most people I know who are independent contractors charge 2.5-3.0 times their full-time employee rates to cover benefits, taxes, etc. My company paid 2.7 times. So, using that multiplier, $80 an hour would be around $30 an hour for an employee job, or around $62,000 a year, which seems comparable to their actual employees. $50 an hour as a contractor would be less than $19 an hour or less than $40,000 a year for an employee. That is probably the approach I would take with them if that is putting you below market rate.

  8. Ali G*

    Hi All,
    Does anyone have some good resources for pivoting training to virtual? We used to do an in-person training annually that was very expensive, and we pivoted to virtual this year. We’ve had an overwhelming response to the virtual option (like 35 ppl attend in-person and now I have over 120 attendees and had to add a second set of dates). We realized a hybrid approach would be best and are looking at resources to do this.
    I am interested in vendors, online resources, or anything that can help me put together a plan and budget on how to do this professionally and successfully.
    Thanks!

    2. cubone*

      So… this is such a big tough question to answer and I lucked out a bit because a colleague did the bulk of the “pivoting” in 2020 before I joined the team, so my experience is more running virtual events. We also haven’t done hybrid so I am useless there. But here is a completely unfiltered brain dump:
      -go back to your core training materials/framework and center yourself in the goals/outcomes. What do people need to get out of this? Why do people attend this? If you have past evaluation or if you asked any questions in your registration, revisit those and really define for yourself what “success” looks like (what skills, knowledge, experience should they walk away with?). I find people are so overwhelmed by the phrase “virtual event” they gloss over the core of what they’re aiming to do

      -with that list think about what is extra difficult or not feasible in a virtual environment. Bucket things out like icebreakers, networking, training sessions etc. What stuff that needs to happen is similar to one another? Decide what can happen virtually with adaptations and what needs to be reconsidered entirely

      -virtual requires MUCH MUCH more technical and administrative support. Your lead trainer/facilitator CANNOT also be a tech person, available to answer all questions etc. We hired an A/V company to manage the tech stuff, this meant they were responsible for admitting people based on a list, troubleshooting all tech issues, creating zoom links, recording snd editing event videos. Invaluable for taking pressure off staff. I got quotes ranging from $5k – $20k for a weekend. I went with the $5k, not because of cost but because they clearly understood the flexibility required for our audience (youth and students), while other companies felt very rigid (like more for a board meeting or something). Do tech checks and dry runs

      -consider outside speakers and facilitators if you can. Variety helps and it takes pressure off people. Look for “virtual event facilitation” or people with “Art of Hosting” experience who would be worth hiring as MCs or “lead facilitators” if that fits your needs. I do this myself but I also am able to bring in others for the training parts (and doing it myself means I can’t do other parts like manage breakout rooms)

      -staff support: roles and responsibilities!! Make sure you have a Lead, a Second (who can jump in at any time), an Admin (eg chat moderation/tech questions), more Admins if you don’t have AV vendors. Do you want breakout rooms, do those rooms need staff support?

      -I honestly don’t have any specific resources to point to because there are so many. I would honestly consider asking for a PD training on running virtual events, something like “Technology of Participation” or just search for different “virtual facilitation” one day trainings. Or again, consider hiring a vendor who specializes in virtual event management, virtual facil, etc

      -honestly: set reasonable expectations which might mean lowering them. Virtual events are not the same as in person. They aren’t lesser, but they’re different. Don’t try to make it feel “the same”, it won’t (and how could it!) and don’t run yourself into the ground trying to perfect everything. Acknowledge zoom fatigue is real and affects women and marginalized people more (there’s research on this!). I am a huge fan of tools like Menti, Miro or other virtual spaces where people can collaborate and participate – don’t make “unmuting yourself to speak” the only form of “valid” participation

      -ask people their accessibility needs (a registration form if you haven’t already done so). Do you need live captioning, translation etc? Do your participants all have internet access?

      -consider a “training kit” that gets sent to them in advance or something like a gift card they can use for lunch. This helps make it feel “real”

      I will try to think of more but this is so long already, lol.

      1. SallyAnne*

        Creating virtual training is one of the things I do for a living as part of a custom learning solutions team.
        A couple of things to keep in mind:
        1) You cannot do a minute-for-minute transfer from in-person training to virtual training. Virtual training takes longer because of how detailed you have to be with your instructions for each activity. So you’ll need to figure out what you can cut.
        2) It’s easy for participants to get distracted in virtual training. To help limit that, you will need to come up with some kind of activity to engage them at least once every 2 to 3 minutes. If you just talk and talk and talk and talk and talk, you’ll lose them. This can be polls, questions to answer in the chat, interactivity involving the training whiteboard, discussion… There are all kinds of ways to solve this problem, but you have to be much less talkative and much more about facilitating interaction than you would in in-person training.
        3) You will definitely need someone to run the backend while someone else facilitates. Leading a virtual training is a really difficult thing for one person to do on their own.

    3. KuklaRed*

      Use Kahoot! or something like it to break things up with fun quizzes or games.
      Have people managing the chat room to gather questions so the trainer is not constantly interrupted.
      Don’t let the sessions go longer than 90 minutes without some kind of a break, even a quick bio break.

  9. PTO Benchmarking*

    Hello! I have a job that I’ve done five interviews for and I’m really excited about the job, team and industry. BUT I’ve been stressed about the PTO, I would receive three weeks of PTO. I currently get six. I tried to benchmark with my book club and neighbors and they all have five-six weeks or unlimited but a couple of friends receive three. What is realistic?

    I’m stressed because I would have three weeks spent before June with existing plans. Do companies actually negotiate PTO or
    is that a snub employees who have earned it with years of service? It’s an industry close to government defense, which is new to me. One of my interviews was with the VP of HR who mentioned offhand they would be updating the benefits but that they were already so generous. And they are, except PTO.

    1. Loulou*

      Unfortunately, I think your friends and neighbors are outliers if they’re receiving 5-6 weeks. That’s a lot more than anyone I know! With that said, are they all in your industry? If so, maybe that is a sign your industry is an outlier in offering more generous PTO and you should be asking for more.

      1. Loulou*

        And just to add, I get 3 weeks + holidays and family/friends considered that pretty good to generous when I was considering my offer. I would likely get a week more if I worked in academic libraries as opposed to public.

      2. Clisby*

        I agree, unless the 5-6 weeks is from one of those places that combines sick/vacation leave under one PTO umbrella.

      3. Quinalla*

        Many companies will negotiate PTO especially if you have years of experience. I negotiated PTO on my current job as there was no way I was coming in 2 weeks (1st year, goes to 3 weeks 2-5 years and keeps increasing, pretty typical for USA) when I had 13 years of experience and currently had 3 weeks, I negotiated for 3.5 weeks without issue, probably could have pushed for more, but that matched my PTO with my husband’s so I was pretty happy with that.

        Not all companies will, but it is worth asking. I’d ask for at least 4 weeks, maybe 5 depending on years of experience, and let them know you are coming from 6 weeks and with your experience it makes sense.

      1. Pop*

        Yes, my new job got three weeks PTO which I thought was low, until I learned that we had some separate sick time, in addition to more holidays than I used to have. We are also pretty flexible about using time off – if I come in late because of a doctor’s appointment, I don’t need to use any time, whereas my previous job would require me to use time off exactly. So even though it’s a decrease, it feels okay.

    3. Little Lobster*

      You can try negotiating for PTO! Honestly 3 weeks is pretty standard, that’s the starting amount I’ve gotten for every salary job I’ve ever had. I’d love to live in this world where 5-6 weeks is standard!

    4. Lizzie*

      Honestly, 3 weeks I think is pretty standard; My previous job, granted 20+ years ago, I got 3 weeks. When I came here, i got 2, until I hit the 5 year mark, and now am at 5, and will stay that way unless the policy changes. All those you consulted with, how long have they been with their employer? and more importantly, if they get more, but don’t have much time in, can they actually TAKE it all?

      So while you may not agree; i think 3 weeks to start is fairly realistic. I know many who get one or two weeks, and that’s it.

    5. Bean Counter Extraordinaire*

      I’ve never had more than 10 days PTO.
      At my current company, it’s based on years of service. (No rollovers)
      Newbies – 2 years get 10 days
      At the 3 year anniversary you get bumped to 13
      At the 5 year anniversary you get bumped to 15
      and then I think the cap is 10 years, 20 days.

    6. ThatGirl*

      Companies DO negotiate PTO — you may not be able to get back to 6, hard to say, but you can say “I’ve previously had 6 weeks of PTO; is there any way you can match that?” and then just wait.

      On a personal level, though, 3 seems standard/good for the jobs I’ve been in the running for recently; my husband gets 5 but he also works for a university and is very underpaid.

    7. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

      3 weeks is pretty standard, especially in state and federal government in my experience. Maybe you could try negotiating for one of your already planned trips to not count as PTO this first year? Like if you have a week-long cruise booked for March, maybe ask if that would be allowable as bonus or unpaid time? (Other commenters may have better suggestions on this sort of negotiation.)

      1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

        My husband works for a state government, and his vacation time gets increased depending on how long he’s been there. He’s been there for decades, so he’s up to about six weeks, plus ten or twelve holidays. Plus very generous sick time. He has so much sick time accrued he could go into a coma for months and barely make a dent. So, very generous time off. On the down side, the pay is total crap.

    8. Hlao-roo*

      I work for a company where vacation days are based on years of service. I get three weeks vacation (and five sick days). At a certain tenure, you get bumped to four weeks vacation and then eventually five.

      The drop in vacation could be because you’re changing industries, or because you don’t have any years-of-service at the new company, or both. You can ask about negotiating for more PTO, but be prepared to hear “our PTO rates are set.”

    9. Purple Cat*

      You can absolutely negotiate PTO. Some companies are more willing to do so than others. And “typically” more flexibility is given to exempt employees than non-exempt. Like every other part of compensation, just straight-forward ask for what you want and your relevant benchmark is what you’re currently receiving, not a straw-man
      “benchmark”.

    10. LCS*

      Re: what is standard – depends what country you are in. My vacation + PTO allowance is currently a little north of 7 weeks and with continued years of service will get up to 9.

      I’m coming from private industry vs. government but in my world you can absolutely negotiate PTO/Vacation. I’ve had quite a few hires make the case that their years of service elsewhere contributes to an overall level of seniority that should transfer through to the new role.

      I’d also want to understand what your options are to take unpaid time off, if the negotiations don’t get you anywhere but it’s still a major priority for you to have more time.

    11. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      I think we don’t grasp if it’s PTO meaning vacation + sick totalling 3 weeks, or if it’s three weeks of vacation, plus X of sick, plus standard federal holidays. If the former (one bucket for all leave other than federal holidays), that’s not enough. If the latter, yes that seems standard as a starting point but you should certainly ask for more and decide if it’s a dealbreaker for you if you don’t get it. As the fallback, I think it’s very reasonable to say you already have 3 weeks of existing plans in the first half of the year, so ask for those to be time off without pay (so they don’t count against your first three weeks).

    12. ATX*

      Is it possible that you currently get that much time as well as your neighbors because you have tenure? I don’t know many US companies that offer 5-6 weeks of vacation for new hires, the most I’ve seen is 4.

      1. PTO Benchmarking*

        I started with four weeks plus holidays and got another week when I hit four years. I’m in the utility industry now.

        1. PTO Benchmarking*

          And we get 40 hours of floating holiday time (instead of Christmas Eve, Presidents Day etc), hence the six week amount plus major holidays.

          1. ATX*

            Stellar paid time off! With my floating holidays and PTO, I get 21 days, and I just purchased 3 additional days for next year.

            I would be worried about the lower PTO offering from another company too, and likely wouldn’t do it.

    13. Saffie_Girl*

      I’ve found that it depends on the company. My current employer does not negotiate PTO at all and, until recently, barely negotiated salary. In recruitment talks with other companies some are willing to negotiate and have a system set up for that and others act like they’ve never heard of such a thing. It does not hurt to ask. 3 weeks is what I consider a standard amount for early/mid career. Also, I think if there is WFH, that plays a part in the equation. If I don’t have to take time off for for things like house repairs and dr. appointments, then how much PTO I need to get to balance my life changes.

    14. Red*

      You can totally negotiate PTO, but keep in mind they may have a seniority thing where PTO is determined by years of service and may be unwilling to adjust that for you. As for whether or not that’s too little, idk. I’ve never had a job with more then a week’s worth of PTO. At my current place you earn 7 days a year with no rollover until you hit 5 years and then it’s 14 days. We get three days of sick leave a year, no rollover (and only cause CA has a mandatory three day minimum to be offered by every employer).

      That said you can also maybe negotiate the existing plans with the understanding you won’t get six weeks regularly, but they will give you six weeks this year: 3 for the existing plans and 3 as your normal deal?

    15. Canonical23*

      I work in local government and 5-6 weeks of vacation is mostly reserved for people who’ve been working for the same place for 15+ years. Every place I’ve worked at has started at 2 or 3 weeks of PTO and has a schedule for when you get a “raise” – e.g. at my current job, once you’ve been there for 2 years, you get 3 weeks; 5 years, 4 weeks; 10 years, 5 weeks and that’s the cap on vacation.

      Check to see if PTO is interchangeable or if there’s a separate pool for sick leave. Some places seem to have lower PTO but it’s specifically “vacation” and then there is sick PTO.

      It’s definitely something you can negotiate – I’ve been in interviews where they’ve talked about how the salary isn’t negotiable, but they’d be willing to offer more PTO if it gets to the offer stage. Though, I feel like negotiating double the amount of PTO (3 weeks into 6 weeks) isn’t going to go over great. An additional week is usually reasonable for employers.

      Finally, just let them know you planned out 2022 in advance and it’s beyond their PTO policy. If you can afford it and there’s a good work/life balance culture, employers are usually okay with unpaid leave.

    16. ASW*

      I would guess that 3 weeks is more common that 5 or 6 based on what family members have gotten at their jobs. I had 5 weeks at my previous job (new hires got 4) but that included sick time. It was a small CPA firm. My current job is with a local government and everyone gets 2 weeks (plus separate sick leave). After two years, you get an extra day a year. I’ll have to be here 17 years to get back to the 5 weeks I had before. In general, there is no negotiating. The only exceptions that have been made during my 8 years here have been for our new CEO who is accruing leave at 3 weeks per year and a few recent engineering hires who were given an extra week at hire, (but then will accrue at the normal rate after that) because we were having trouble finding engineers willing to accept 2 weeks.

    17. Sure they do*

      Most companies in our field/area start new employees at 2 weeks PTO, 3 for more experienced positions. It seems pretty standard.

      5-6 weeks is for the C suite and for people who have been in their roles with company loyalty for ~10 years at least.

      Companies do negotiate PTO but it’s definitely worth a deeper dive into whether this is just a starting benchmark for posting the role, or there’s some company rule that limits it, or if they can indeed flex on it.

      Even if you come in at 6 and they come back at 4 that’s a week more than if you hadn’t asked :)

    19. Irish girl*

      I hate the PTO by years of service especially if you change jobs after a long time We start at 4 weeks PTO, no sick time. You can gain a few more based on longevity, i have 25 days this year and sine i hit 15 years next, I will get 27 days. Some levels can get more PTO as a new employee but that is Director or higher. They can come in at 5 week (10 years)

      1. Lizzie*

        I agree! when I came to my current job, i went from 3 to 2, and fewer holidays. Although I don’t remember if I got personal and floating holidays at my last job. I might have but i don’t think as many as I get here. I had to wait 5 years to get 3 weeks, and now at 20+ years, I’m at the max of 5 weeks. BUT, we are able to cary over, which is nice, and you can carry over as much as you are entitled to, so if i took nothing, i could carry 5 weeks, BUT i’d have to use it all in the following year. I carried two over last year and will again next year.

    21. DrRat*

      It 100% depends on the company and the industry. I would definitely ask if there is a sick day bank in addition to the PTO bank.

      We’re all different, but the generous PTO at my company is a big reason I won’t go elsewhere. 8 years in, getting 24 days PTO + 8 holidays, for a total of 32 days. Will get another 5 days PTO in 2 years. I think we max out at holidays plus 8 weeks off?

      Then I think of a crap job someone I knew had once, where he had to work 52 weeks in a row to get 5 whole days of PTO.

    22. Florida Fan 15*

      I’m in state government and we get 3 weeks annual leave & 2 weeks sick, both of which roll over if you don’t use them (there’s a cap on the annual; if you hit it, the excess rolls over into sick).

  10. Goose*

    Also! For jobs that have you travelling 25% of the year, what tips and tricks do you have? Travelling itself doesn’t stress me out so much, but I’m thinking more about pet and house care, keeping up with laundry, etc.

    1. mcl*

      I’m not traveling that much right now, but I would totally get a house cleaning service. No way you want to be spending your precious time at home cleaning. (I have lovely cleaners and it is money well spent on freeing up my time and energy!)

      1. Cold Fish*

        I adore my house cleaner. I don’t travel for work but it is totally worth it. It is my best spent monthly budget line item. I HATE house cleaning chores. Not having to worry about or dread doing it is incredible.

        1. Yay, I’m a Llama Again!*

          This is me too. Knowing I don’t have to spend hours of the weekend cleaning is so important. I used to work away more than I do now, and knowing I was coming home to a house than someone had done a good clean on was also so nice!

        2. ScruffyInternHerder*

          Same here. There’s currently minimal work travel in my life, and even so…house cleaners.

      2. Fellow Traveller*

        Yes! Having the house cleaned while I’m away always makes coming home from work travel so much nicer.

    2. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

      It really depends on how much of that time is consecutive. A few days in a row here or there is, in my opinion, easier to manage from a household perspective than multiple weeks in a row.
      For pets, find a reliable sitter or a boarding facility that you can help your pets adapt to. I find cats and other non-dogs do better when they can stay at your home and just receive visiting care from a familiar human.
      For mail and house security, see if you can give a friend or trusted neighbor a set of keys and have them pop by every other day or so to check on things. I also have found the timer plugs for lamps to be really handy in making a house look less empty.
      With laundry, again, that’s more an issue when you are gone for long periods of time. Some hotels have laundry facilities you can use, but you can also pack thoughtfully. Wrinkle-release and fabric-freshening sprays such as Downy or Febreeze can help keep clothing fresh between washes.

    3. Angstrom*

      For me, it was worth it to pay for some house chores, like lawn mowing. If you always come home to a long to-do list you always feel behind and never get a break. You can’t do house chores when you’re sitting in a hotel. Knowing they’re getting done — and not by your partner, if you have one — is a relief.
      Try to leave a neat house. It makes coming home much more pleasant.
      Keep a couple of non-perishable or frozen meal options at home so you don’t have to shop immediately after a trip.

    4. cubone*

      I did a 40% travel (up to 80% during busy months) and yes to things like laundry service, house cleaning service, convenience foods (eg meal kits or premade frozen meals from quality places). I think one of the biggest challenges for me was spending a week on the road eating takeout, getting home and being too exhausted to cook (and with an empty fridge), and getting MORE takeout. It can be really challenging health wise! I don’t have pets but in retrospect I almost wish I had negotiated a travel type stipend. Regardless, get VERY clear directions on stuff like per dorms, lieu time etc and track all of that methodically, especially if your workplace is loosey goosey on it.

      Other pieces that helped:
      -have some key things on the road that make you feel like you have more of a routine, eg. A workout/yoga practice you can do in a hotel room
      -NICE PJS. Some people I know bring their own pillows or pillowcases
      -It can be really helpful to have an “on the road” capsule wardrobe to minimize packing stress and laundry
      -I am a big believer in unpacking if I’m at a hotel more than 1 night and unpack within 24 hours of getting home, this helps me a ton
      -make a point to explore where you are, whether that’s a walk around the block, go to a museum or library, etc. I also developed a love for eating out at restaurants alone or going to the movies alone, this made it much more fun and exciting (bonus: I’ve become very comfortable with alone time and taking myself on solo dates)

      1. Not a cat*

        See if you can’t mostly stay at one chain that has a rewards program. I used to do 1 week a month in NYC. My company booked me at the Westin (W) and the hotel staff took good care of me because I was a regular.

    5. James*

      Transportable hobbies. I like video games, and councils are better for taking with me than a PC. I also crochet, which is easily transportable. Other people do things like sample local bourbons, or go rock hunting–stuff you can do anywhere.

      Books on tape. Libby is a fantastic app if you have a library card–you can borrow books for free, in e-book or audiobook format. Makes long drives and nights in hotels easier.

      Look for hotels with laundry facilities. You’re going to end up killing time in the hotel anyway, and you may as well listen to a book in the laundry room as in your room. Keeps the amount of “Now I’m home and have to clean up” chores to a minimum.

    6. DrRat*

      Last time I travelled extensively, I found a local laundry where I could drop off my stuff, and they washed, dried and folded it for me for a fairly modest amount. It was a lifesaver.

    7. A-Name*

      Things that worked well for me:
      Travel
      – having a work uniform to wear when at client sites. I had 3 dresses that were my go to outfits with different jackets/ sweaters to change it up. I used to keep them together in my closet so I could just grab and toss into the suitcase. And it’s true that no once notices that you where the same black dress if you change up the look with a different sweater.
      – after work clothes like jeans so you don’t get your work clothes messy
      – overhead friendly roller bag
      – toiletries that were just for travel so I wouldn’t have to remember to pack my daily tooth brush. Travel size versions of skin care and make up.
      – power strip, sounds weird but it made giving trainings in rooms with limited plugs easier. Also if helped with some odd outlet placements in hotels. It just lived in the suitcase.
      – if you book your own travel and then get reimbursed a travel points credit card is handy to have.

      Home
      – If you’re in the US, USPS offers mail holds that you can schedule to start and end on specific dates. My house is also signed up for their mail scanning service so you get a summary of what is coming in the mail. I believe that UPS and FedEx also have an option to block out delivery days
      – have a trustworthy friend check in on your place while you’re gone

    8. vma*

      If your boss is open to it, getting a comp day either before or after your trip is helpful. It makes it easy to go do the errands you either need for the travel or catch up on stuff you would have been doing. I’m also much more protective of my weekends now and schedule travel only for weekdays as much as possible, which also helps with the time balance.

    9. Generic Name*

      Have you traveled for work before? One tip I heard from someone who routinely traveled was to take the amount of travel noted in the job posting and double it. So I would assume that you would be traveling half of the time. Some are fine with that, others would find that a massive disruption to their lives.

    10. tiddlywink*

      to ‘goose’: i worked for 16 years for someone who traveled. my whole job was living-in, caring for the unhealthy dogs, running errands, and housekeeping. i love autonomy when working, i loved the dogs, i loved the solitude. my compensation was having a small room/bathroom, a private entrance, and a small stipend. perhaps this idea helps? it isn’t for most people, but there are souls out there who would love a job like this!

  11. Pumpkin Fluff*

    I need to take an informal poll.

    Are there any experienced workers out there, without a degree, that have been able to apply for a job requiring a degree and able to get an interview or an offer?

    I haven’t job searched in awhile and am really feeling beaten down by my current job and all the postings that require a degree. People say “apply anyway!” but I’m guessing I’m not even making it through the ATS in some cases so… maybe I should change my strategy, I don’t know, but it would good to know if this is even possible anymore, to get a good job without a degree.

    Anyone out there make it over this mountain recently? Thanks.

    1. cmcinnyc*

      Yes. A lot of people are very down on cover letters lately, but if you are in any way “unqualified” or an outlier, I think a good cover letter is key. I don’t mention the “no degree” in my letter–I just write a really good letter tailored to that job. It has not come up in interviews.

      Of course, if you are in a field where there are certification requirements you need those. Don’t even try applying without the requisite training. Nobody wants a self-taught architect, thanks.

    2. Loulou*

      It really depends on the field. In my field the required qualifications tend to truly be required, and each application is judged against a rubric. If you don’t check off each of the required qualifications, you don’t get an interview. This is why cover letters explaining how you meet all the requirements are important.

      So if you apply for a librarian job without an MLS — nope. If you apply for a job that wants a BA “or equivalent work experience,” that’s more flexible.

      1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

        It depends on the library. I worked in two non-public libraries without a degree. I wasn’t trying to be the head librarian. At one, I was in charge of circulation. At the other, I was in one of the special collections doing reference/research for the public, plus light reference work in the main library to fill in.

        1. Loulou*

          Just curious, but feel free not to answer if this would give away too much personal information — was your title “librarian” in either of those roles? At all the libraries I’ve worked you HAD to have a master’s or PhD to get hired as a librarian, and there were often really convoluted processes for getting promoted when a staff member (who frequently had been doing a librarian’s job already….) finished their degree. My perception was that only at smaller public libraries could librarians by title not have degrees, so I’m curious to hear more about your uni library experience if you don’t mind sharing!

    3. L. Ron Jeremy*

      I don’t have a degree and had a career as both a Senior R&D Engineer and Senior Manufacturing Engineer. Many companies will substitute years of experience for a degree.

      Unfortunately, you will be screened out through a company’s website if a position requires a degree. You’re only alternative is having a company contact or someone in your network that will recommend you.

      1. Patty Mayonnaise*

        Yes this has been my experience too (in a very different field) – I’ve gotten around the degree requirement, but someone in my network recommended me for those positions. I think I would have been screened out by a company website.

    4. Can't Sit Still*

      It’s gotten more and more difficult in the past decade. I finally gave in and got my degree. I have found that experience + degree has resulted in a significant increase in income for me, as well as respect on the job (so annoying!). On the one hand, it was worth it for me, personally, on the other hand, it’s ridiculous that I needed a piece of paper to “prove” what I already knew.

      Places where a degree is nice to have but not usually required: universities and colleges, hospitals and health care, biotech, etc. Basically, anywhere that a doctorate or masters is required for a majority of roles, won’t care as much about “support” staff having degrees. Finance, accounting, law and technology companies tend to require a degree, regardless of whether or not one is needed for the role.

      I wish you the best of luck, and certainly right now seems like it would be a good opportunity for finding a job without a degree while it’s an employee’s market. I am hoping that millennials are more sensible about degree requirements when hiring!

    5. Khatul Madame*

      I’ve seen many resumes where the degree was “in progress”. I guess this helped the applicants get through the filters.
      On one occasion the degree listed on the resume wasn’t even started. Like, the person claimed to be planning to start school in 1 year.
      This practice has a lot of overlap with for-profit education establishments, so I am not a fan.

    6. kat*

      Yup. I’m a college dropout and I currently have a pretty good job that requires a bachelor’s, and I was headhunted for it. At this point in my career, experience has been more important than the degree, and the last two places I’ve worked including this one have not given a single damn that I don’t have a bachelor’s because I’ve proven that I can do the work.

    7. Red*

      So it can be difficult. In my case I’ve had interviews where everything was great and then they basically were rushing to push me out because I didn’t have a degree (which was insane because I wasn’t applying for jobs where a degree is truly a requirement: think sales or account management). However, the main reason I think I got to the interview stage was because I am currently pursuing a degree and I have that on my resume and the automated resume scanner system they all use can’t tell between graduated and graduating. So that’s one way to get past the scanner. I also made it through the screening call for all of the jobs I interviewed for because we went over my cover letter and my resume and generally my stuff was strong enough to over come the lack of degree.

    8. Hiring Manager*

      My company used to require degrees for positions where it wasn’t relevant; it was just “assumed” and in fact required to hire at a certain job title/level. I had someone referred to me who didn’t have a degree and I had to jump through ridiculous hoops even to get them interviewed (like my VP had to sign off on it). But I fought through it (both because I thought it was dumb and because I thought highly of the referral), and ended up eventually hiring the person who has been wonderful.

      The policy has since been changed and not all jobs at those levels require degrees unless there is a business need because so many people pointed out the way degree requirements adversely affect certain groups. I’m hoping we continue to see change in this area.

    9. Cold Fish*

      No advice, but I feel you.

      I just came across and applied for a position last week that I think would be great. But I’m pretty sure I was screened out because I didn’t meet their “requirement”**

      **The requirement was similar to 3 years grooming poodles which I don’t have but I have 8 years experience grooming schnauzers

    10. Ice Pop Party*

      Have any other AAM readers applied for the JET Program 2022? The deadline has just passed for people in my area! The confirmation email makes it sound like we won’t know if we made it to the interview stage until February. I thought it’d be mid-January…
      I’m pretty far into the interview process with my second choice dispatcher. Ironically I’d probably have to choose them over JET due to timing. Ugh, why must JET start later in the year than everyone else…?

      1. Ice Pop Party*

        I made this comment by clicking on “add one,” but for some reason it was randomly nested here….?

    11. introverted af*

      I’m gonna be honest, this just worked for me and has also worked for my 3 friends applying for jobs recently to increase their number of interviews – IF you are applying for a job that you are a fit for in terms of experience (not something that’s a stretch), then paste the job description in tiny font into the footer of your resume. It only works on robots, unfortunately.

      I know Alison and others would probably not recommend it, and I have been on a particular r/antiwork kick lately so that’s coloring my experience here. But I think you’re right that you’re probably getting screwed over by an automated system, and you need a job to eat so whatever you need to do to get in front of an actual person to have a chance seems ok to me. But again, this will only have a shot if you can demonstrate qualification for the position with your experience clearly in your resume and cover letter.

    12. Sleeping Late Every Day*

      Not current because I’m retired now, but I got one job based on an a cover letter that stated my desire to work in the field in almost evangelistic (and slightly tongue-in-cheek) terms. It got me the interview. I was third choice, but #1 didn’t work out and #2 lost interest. Next job I got based on that experience. When I applied for a better internal job that required a specific degree, the department head knew me well enough to tell me it could be waived. His boss was fairly new and did not know my background from previousjob, so I had to give an Oscar-worthy interview performance to convince him, and I did. I’ve always thought of interviews as acting jobs, and the improv classes from years ago in school were the best preparation for them. Even the department head told me after that meeting that it was the most impressive interview he’d ever seen.

  12. Interviewee Overthink*

    I had an in-person interview on Monday that went well. As I was leaving, the hiring manager requested some writing samples. I sent those on Wednesday and haven’t heard a reply. She’s been very responsive in our other communications so I’m worried the email size was too big and it wasn’t received. Or would I be notified? Sorry, typical interview overthinking! Do I send a follow-up email at some point asking if they were received? And if so, at what point?

    1. Charlotte Lucas*

      Most email systems will tell you if there was a delivery failure. She might also just have a lot going on & want to read when she has more time to concentrate.

    2. Purple Cat*

      You *should* have been notified if the email got rejected due to file size.
      10MB is a “typical” file size limit (obviously companies will vary), so if you were under that, you were probably okay.
      Personally, I would wait until Monday to confirm receipt. (and next time put a delivery/read receipt on a very important email like that if you’re worried it might not go through)

    4. Eliza Doolittle*

      After two weeks you can send a follow up email asking about any updates to their timeline (there’s examples somewhere on here), but you can safely assume they received the writing samples. If she hadn’t gotten them she would have reached out to you by now. Follow the tried and true AAM advice: put this job out of mind and continue your job search as usual.

    5. Moonbeam*

      +1 that you would have received a bounce-back error if the email wasn’t received. There’s a slim chance that something with their email client would prevent receiving it, or send it to Junk, etc. but that’s pretty slim. I’d say if you don’t hear anything by Wednesday of next week, it would be fine to send a polite email saying you just wanted to confirm she received your submission. You can just look for confirmation without sounding pushy, and that’s a super normal thing I get from candidates.

      Generally, though, don’t get too stressed about delays in communication from your contact (whether that’s the hiring manager, HR, etc). Even employers with the best intentions have natural delays between stages, and very frequently those delays are more than they intended or told you. If she was really responsive with interview scheduling, for instance, I’d expect more of a delay after a writing sample. That’s something that will be in review, and there will be other natural delays depending on where you are in the timeline of their overall candidate pool.

      Don’t fret, and best of luck!!

    7. Pip*

      Depending on how their email system is set up, the attachments may have caused it to get stuck in quarantine or sent to a spam folder rather than the inbox. So I’d send a brief follow-up in a couple of working days.

  13. Bye Academia*

    Anyone else feeling incredibly burnt out?

    I’ve been pretty lucky during the pandemic. I had covid in March 2020, but my case was mild and I had no lingering issues. I have a wife, so I wasn’t lonely during quarantine. No kids so I didn’t have to deal with child care issues or virtual school. While my job does require work in person, it is super flexible so I was able to commute before/after rush hour and work alone. I never lost any pay.

    But I am still so, so tired. All the uncertainty, decision fatigue, precautions to do anything…it’s been a lot. I find myself struggling to get to work every day and have been coming in later and later (the downside of flexibility!). I stay late to make up for it and still get my work done, but it feels like such a slog. Can anyone relate?

    1. Theo*

      oh for sure. I work in medical publishing so it’s been a slog since Jan/Feb 2020; I’m so burnt out. I just want the thing to be over.

    2. Pumpkin Fluff*

      Absolutely, totally exhausted even though I have been lucky not too deal with a lot of the additional pressures that others have had to manage (no kids, been remote since March 2020 so no long commute, etc.)

    3. BlueBelle*

      I am so worn out. I have WFH for years and rarely went to the office pre-pandemic. I am so tired of not going anywhere, the stress of what is going on in this nation, the increased workload. I am so worn out. I am tired of how demanding work has gotten, the pace at which they want things completed, the constantly changing priorities and goals. I can’t wait until Thanksgiving just to have a few days off.

    4. ThisIsTheHill*

      100%. I’m in the same situation – DINK, introvert w/ anxiety who weathered staying at home better than a lot of friends/family, permanent remote worker – and I’m exhausted. Every aspect of life feels like an insurmountable chore.

      You are most definitely not alone.

    5. Colette*

      Oh yeah. I’ve been blaming my tiredness/decision fatigue on the backyard project that’s not done yet, but I’m sure the pandemic is a huge part of it as well.

    6. Lady Ann*

      100% can relate. I’ve been super lucky. Nobody in my family has been ill, I was able to work from home during the worst of it, I don’t have kids and I have a partner and pets to keep me company.

      But I’ve had some symptoms of depression on and off, and I have a lot of empathy so hearing and reading about the people struggling really gets me down. It’s been tough to get out of bed some days. And then I feel extra bad because I feel like I really don’t have any reason to be so sad and tired because nothing really bad has happened to me personally.

      So I don’t have advice, I guess, but I do have solidarity.

    7. I am tired*

      I spent most of the pandemic as a healthcare worker, with a kid in (or rather mostly out of) daycare and a kid in (or rather mostly out or) school. Burnt out in the summer. Took a non-clinical job. I haven’t slept an untroubled night since February 2020.

      I am tired of the DISRESPECT. For healthcare workers, for parents, for disabled and ill people. I have been working nonstop with maybe a tenth of the resources I need to get by for a year and a half and I am TIRED.

      I am lucky. I am partnered, I am wealthy, I have close friends and family members for support, I went to therapy. I am exhausted and I don’t know how much longer I can do this.

      Wear your masks where appropriate. Get the goddamn vaccine. Stay home if you have the sniffles. And stop acting like caregiving isn’t real work, paid or unpaid.

      1. Jean (just Jean)*

        “…acting like caregiving isn’t real work…”
        where to begin with this?! I do my best to be respectful of healthcare workers clinical & non-clinical alike, but like most other people in this Pandemic Era I am way beyond depleted. Because the obligations are still present I need to redirect my motivation from running away from to running towards the to-do list. Maybe we should continue the non-workplace aspect of this discussion on the weekend open chat.

      2. Double A*

        I was talking to a friend about *gestures vaguely at everything* and going on about the interpersonal struggles and she summed it up concisely by saying, “I’m just tired of people being DICKS.”

        It feels like we all need so much gentleness right now. We need to take care of each other. And there are just so many people out there being dicks. Which then makes it tempting to, in turn, be a dick.

        I’m just trying to be really kind to strangers. And people I know, too. But man…sometimes it’s tiring to be even just be kind.

    8. Anonymous Luddite*

      Ayup. Right there with you, point for point (except I didn’t have Covid). Brain fog, decision fatigue, burnout with a side helping of IDGAF.

      Speaking for myself, the only thing that has saved me was a daily walk outside after work. Now that it’s the rainy season, I’ve been lucky that the gym I belong to (and never cancelled my membership to) now requires proof of vaccination AND 100% masking.

      Good luck!

    9. Sherm*

      I feel this. Would love it if someone told me “You don’t have to do any work for the rest of the year.” I dislike working from home, and we’re not coming back until March of next year — supposedly. The majority of my coworkers are A-OK with working from home and have zero desire to return, and my organization, which used to struggle to find parking and office space for everyone, definitely doesn’t have a problem with this. I doubt things will ever resemble old times.

      2020 and 2021 have been my busiest, most stressful, years. I mean, I get it — they aren’t paying me so I can nap on the sofa while they pat my head. But then they want me to Care. And now, 18+ months after the beginning the pandemic, they are making attempts to combat burnout and Zoom fatigue (while they expected us to adapt to pandemic times immediately). It leaves me thinking “Hmm, only doing this now because of all the people leaving and the possibility of many more?”

    10. Siege*

      Yep. I went remote in March of last year, I have a partner and I’ve been able to see my family (masked/distanced/outdoors at first, later unmasked after we were vaccinated), I celebrated holidays in a way I found more satisfying last year, I’ve been able to maintain several of my hobbies, no kids so no challenges there, I never got COVID and only had one coworker I don’t like who did get it, and I am exhausted. I’m sad and underperforming and tired and I could sleep for a week. Very little in my life gives me pleasure, or even doesn’t feel like a monumental task.

      I have depression anyway and I’m on a heart med with depression as a side effect, so that’s a big part of it, but I am so tired. So very, very tired.

    11. Bye Academia*

      Thanks, all, for your comments. It’s nice to hear I’m not alone. Sometimes I feel guilty for feeling just so burnt out when my situation has been relatively good…for a pandemic, at least.

      I’m debating taking a week or two off of work (I have the PTO available) to try to decompress. I’m not really sure it would help, though. I’m not burnt out on work, I’m burnt out on the pandemic, and it’s not like I can take a vacation from that.

      1. intl devt worker*

        You are definitely not alone, right down to the feeling guilty for feeling burnt out when your situation has been relatively good! (I’m in the same boat; flexible stable WFH job, partnered, no kids to worry about, etc.) The closest I’ve gotten to feeling normal since the pandemic began was taking some vacation and making a really, really deliberate effort to reactivate the “joy” part of my brain by seeking out new experiences- different hikes or wandering around new corners of my city, weird activities (like art class, axe throwing, escape rooms, geocaching, etc.), camping… stuff like that. I hope some of that stuff is accessible where you live! Good luck out there :)

      2. SallyAnne*

        I took a week off at the end of September. Four nights of that, I stayed at an Airbnb in the middle of nowhere that was also only a 2-hour drive from my major midwestern city. I spent my days hiking, visited aa different brewpub every night, and focused my mornings and my late nights writing and thinking. The stillness and the silence were so restorative. I highly recommend taking a couple of weeks off if you have the time and spend them doing the things you know will feed your psyche.

    12. fueled by coffee*

      As my therapist said, just because other people have had greater challenges than you have, doesn’t mean you haven’t had challenges.

      It is a global pandemic. People are dying. Everyone is stressed. Our social lives have been put on hold. We thought the vaccine would get us out of this and then Delta threw a wrench in everything. When we do choose to socialize, we’re knowingly running the risk of catching the virus. And through it all, we’re expected to keep working like everything’s normal and the world isn’t on fire.

      The “burnout” feeling is a stress response. We’re all stressed and your brain is trying to go through the motions while also processing an immense amount of trauma, even if other people are experiencing more urgent traumas.

      Sending warmth and empathy.

    13. Dumpster Fire Survivor*

      Me! I have a husband, no kids yet, and I am incredibly burnt out. My field got slammed with work since the pandemic started, so I am exhausted in all areas of my life. I could use a month sabbatical but those are not a thing in my line of work. I have a couple of vacations planned out in the upcoming months, so those will help. But I really want a long Staycation to decompress and enjoy my city without having to worry about work, the housework piling up, or catching a virus. I caught COVID AFTER I got vaccinated, which was even more frustrating.

    14. Choggy*

      Yup, completely relate. Not only that, but I feel like a number of people I work with have checked out, so they must be overwhelmed too. It’s frustrating because if they drop the ball, people come to ME to pick up the slack.

      I am starting to take better care of myself, eating better, exercising, trying to fully disconnect from work, but it’s a process that will take some time to get there.

    16. JelloStapler*

      Higher ed here- we are exhausted, the students are exhausted, etc. Our surge capacity is drained as the “surge” has gone well past a short-term stressful event.

      1. A Genuine Scientician*

        So much this.

        I’ve seen so many people saying things like “Well, this just goes to show that when they said they couldn’t do X, that was just because they didn’t value the people who needed X, since now they’re doing it.”

        I can go without sleep for a night.

        I cannot go without sleep for a month.

        What I can do to get through a crisis is a lot more when that crisis is for a month than when it’s for 2 years.

    17. A Genuine Scientician*

      I am just so tired.

      In a lot of ways, I’m fortunate. I’m salaried and with a contract. My job *can* be done remotely, it’s just more work and less emotionally rewarding. I don’t have kids. I’m an introvert who lives alone in a quiet, detached house, just me and a pair of hyperaffectionate cats. My job has been entirely remote since March of 2020, and will remain so through December (current statement is we’re back to in person full time in January, though cases in my state are currently worse than they were a year ago). I actually managed to find an online therapist with my insurance to deal with some long term anxiety issues I have. My boss is quite supportive, got me a variety of tech things that make my job much easier to do at home (though still not as easy as in person), and has actively told me to not worry about doing things ideally or perfectly, but to accept that there will inevitably be some errors and prioritize not burning myself out any more than is strictly required. I moved into a slightly different role for August – December this year than my long term role — and am actively looking forward to returning to my long-term one in January — as a favor, because someone had to do this one, and I was honestly the only plausible choice in my unit. I’ve been thanked repeatedly for doing this.

      But it’s still just a struggle to get through everything that truly needs to be done. Tasks that used to take me an hour can end up taking 3 because I can never really unplug, and so I end up less efficient. Parts of my job are actually less rewarding now than they were 6 months ago. (I teach college courses, and when everything was online, a substantial percentage would at least turn on webcams when in small breakout rooms with their long-term groups. Now, I suspect my classes are the only online class a lot of the students have, so it’s me talking at a sea of black squares and near total lack of responses when I ask questions, and no non-verbal feedback to let me gauge reactions and adjust my content/delivery based on student understanding.) Many of my hobbies just can’t be done over the computer, and surgery a month ago + the temperatures veering down in a place with a significant winter means I’m way less active than I prefer. I used up basically all of my mental and emotional reserves during the earlier parts of the crisis, and just don’t have more left to give now. As much as I cherish having some alone time to recharge, this ongoing complete lack of any physical contact with another human is not doing my psyche much good. And the students take out a lot of their honestly legitimate frustrations — with not getting the college experience they expected, with technology malfunctions, with their dorm internet being too slow, etc. — on me, when I have no control over those things at all.

      And I’m filled with this impotent, depressing rage that my local vaccination numbers essentially flatlined in April, and nearly the entire recent uptick in shots administered is just due to 5-to-11 year old kids of vaccinated adults getting vaccinated, while large numbers remain willfully unvaccinated. We’ve been in exponential case growth since late June, and so very few people seem to care.

      I am really struggling to see how this is going to end.

    18. Nynaeve*

      Yep, stick a fork in me – I’m done. I am over absolutely everything. And I know I’m comparatively lucky, which is so disheartening. I think most people are hitting their breaking point (or are way past it), but society as a whole is rushing to get things back to “normal,” a.k.a. back to being a cog in the machine. And we’re not machines. (And even machines need maintenance and downtime.)

    19. Quinalla*

      I have been pretty lucky in most ways too – I have kids, but not really young kids, none of us has been sick, my husband and I can WFH, etc. but I need a BREAK from my life. Work has actually been hugely helpful to keep me going, but I really need a real vacation not just from work but from my house and the drudgery and low level (sometimes spiking up) anxiety, etc. Exercise, getting outside, getting alone time and other things are keeping me going, but it is so hard. And it is hard for everyone, just hard in different ways depending on our individual situations!

    20. eisa*

      I absolutely can relate. I was going through the same thing myself.

      Similar situation to yours – married, no young children, stable employment. But starting I guess last spring, I fell into a black hole. “Depressed” (in lay terms, no clinical diagnosis). No energy, no motivation, no joy. Work felt like a drag all day, every day.
      Even when restrictions lifted, I could not be bothered – I had become quite antisocial.

      I am better now. The turnaround, I think, were some instances where I was “forced” to go out and socialize again (choir practice resumed, an invitation to a party that -because reasons- could not be refused..)
      I do more stuff now and there is even some pleasure in work again.

      The bad news is, where I live the writing is on the wall for the next lockdown :(

      I hope it will get better for you ! Hang in there !

    21. the cat's ass*

      I SO FEEL this! You’re not alone. I’m triple vaxxed and incredibly grateful, but also so tired. I never stopped going to work (healthcare), but that in itself has been exhausting. I love my work/patients/colleagues for the most part, but it’s an effort sometimes. Especially the ones who dick-nose their masks, won’t get vaccinated and are talky about it. Sorry, dude, pull that sucker up over your proboscis and don’t try to litigate your poor choices with me, which BTW, ENDANGER ALL OF US WITH YOUR STUPID NONSENSE.

      And I try to get out and exercise, get enough sleep, we do a treat ourselves to takeout every Wed, etc, and things are okay at home, too. But I’d adore a month off. In the meantime, I’m buying bagels for my fab colleagues, taking a rare mental health day here and there, and just keeping on hoping that we will be back in a place of relative normalcy next spring.

  14. Oh No She Di'int*

    tl;dr: what consumable expenses should be reimbursable for working from home?

    I have made the decision for my 8-person office that WFH will remain a permanent option. The office still exists for anyone who may feel more productive there, etc. However, any employee is permitted to work from home on a permanent basis.

    I am now updating our reimbursement policy to be more of a fit for permanent WFH rather than temporary. My question is around consumables. We reimburse (or purchase outright) typical stationery supplies such as pens, post-its, paper. We even reimburse for some consumables that may straddle the line between work/personal, such as if someone is using a personal printer. The ink would be reimbursed.

    However, the draft policy would not provide for reimbursement of non-stationery consumables such as light bulbs, bin liners, and coffee filters. My reasoning there is that the line is simply too fuzzy and these seem to be the kinds of things required simply to have a working home office (analogous to how daily bathing to work with others requires that you purchase soap on a regular basis).

    I received a bit of pushback from some staff over this. In particular, the question of an air filter came up. The employee wanted reimbursement because they said that breathing is required for the job, and an air filter is required for breathing in their small apartment.

    So my question is where have others seen the line drawn? By the logic of the air filter, does that mean we should be reimbursing for batteries in smoke detectors, replacement screens on windows, replacing worn carpet, and so forth? To me that seems over the edge. I mean, if someone has a potted plant do they get reimbursed for fertilizer?

    My hesitation is that nobody at this point is FORCED to work from home—putting aside childcare issues for the moment. The office is still here, and we’ve taken fairly extraordinary measures such that anyone in the office would be quite safe. (Each person has their own space with a closed door. Proof of full vaccination is required to be on the premises. There is liberal hand sanitizer everywhere, and a policy of masking whenever a door is opened.) So I wonder where the proper line is drawn.

    1. Colette*

      I think you have a reasonable policy. Breathing is required for work, but air filters are not required for breathing.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Eh, she could take out the company air filter and put in her own after the 8 hours is up. (not)

        I can see where the employee is coming from but I think it’s reaching too far. I would want expenses reimbursed that I would not have had if there were NO wfh. This could be faster internet or a landline phone. (Landlines get mentioned often in my area.)
        I know my heat and electric would go up because of being home, but I don’t think I would mention that as my transportation costs would plummet.

    2. Violetta*

      You need to tell them that you’re offering both options and everyone is free to choose whatever works best for them, and that you’re reimbursing clearly work-related expenses, but that you’re not buying them coffee filters.

      I mean, this is ridiculous. I love too so I am choosing to do the max WFH my company offers – but I realize that the many, many advantages WFH affords me does not include my company buying me bin liners.

    3. Lizzie*

      I’m not a manager, but I would think realistically only things that directly relate to the job or job function should be reimbursed. Like you said, stationary, pens, printer ink, etc. I don’t agree with light bulbs, bin liners, coffee filters, etc. because presumably people would buy those things regardless of where they were working. Same with the air filter. Again, working in the office means they aren’t in their home all day, but they’re there at night, weekends, holidays, days off, so my position is its up to the employee to pay for those things themselves. I wouldn’t even think to ask about being reimbursed for something like that. So I’d draw the one, as you say, to reimbursement ONLY for things directly needed for them to do their jobs.

    4. ThatGirl*

      I think your policy is reasonable too. Things like smoke detectors — those batteries need to be replaced regardless of how often you’re home! And a plant is not a work-required item. Etc.

    5. Turtles All The Way Down*

      Surely the air filter isn’t required for them to breathe solely during working hours, it’s a requirement of living in their apartment. As are functional lightbulbs, running water, safe flooring, legally mandated devices like smoke detectors…

    6. Mockingjay*

      YOU get to draw the line. You’ve polled your staff, got their preferences, now you have to balance what they want against what they need to do the job and what the budget can handle. It’s not unreasonable to have reimbursement limits. Just spell them out clearly. Several possible suggestions to handle:

      – Reimbursement limit per year. Set amount. They can use it for whatever they want, but when it’s gone, it’s gone.
      – Draw from supplies within the office. Likely they’ll have to come in at times; they can grab what they need then.
      – Set reimbursement for only certain office supplies. Printer paper, pens, notepads, mice, etc.
      – Online shopping cart for local office supply store or internal list on company server. Purchasing then submits the bulk order.
      – And so on.

      Whatever you decide, make sure the policy is clear and exceptions won’t be made. Again – office supplies are to enable a worker to do their job, not to supplement their personal household.

    7. londonedit*

      We can be reimbursed for certain office things – like an office chair (from a specific list), external keyboard/monitor/mouse etc (again up to a certain amount). Basically things that make your workstation health & safety compliant. We also get a working from home allowance – the same amount as HMRC give in tax relief for WFH but direct from the company rather than us having to claim as individuals through HMRC. But anything else that you might happen to want for your home office would be your responsibility.

    8. Purple Cat*

      “air filters”?? Wow, that’s some gumption right there.
      If for some reason the company required employees who WFH to have pristine air, then yes, the filters should be reimbursed, but not for any reasonable situation.
      Your line in the sand seems very reasonable to me. Light bulbs, bin liners and coffee filters are what people personally buy for their personal household. Unless you require them to make coffee as part of their job requirements – then it’s a personal expense, not a job-related expense.

      1. lost academic*

        Hmm, I disagree. When I am not at home because I am working in the office, I can set my HVAC system to run much more efficiently, not run the fans, etc. This generally means I do not need to change out the filters as often. Now that we’ve been working from home constantly, I have to keep the house at a reasonable temperature and airflow during the day and that’s an extra cost. But I do agree that it’s not a typical or entirely normal item for reimbursement – I can just see why it’s a cost that isn’t the same. I think for the most part people with access to a regular office where others are working should generally draw consumables they need for work from said office, where they are able to buy in bulk at lower costs and presumably from sources that can also offer lower costs to businesses.

    9. Rusty Shackelford*

      I think it’s reasonable to cover things that the employee wouldn’t need if they were just hanging out at home and not working during those ~8 hours. So. Printer ink, yes. Light bulbs, air filters, soap – no. They’d still be using the air filters even if they were watching Netflix all day.

    10. CBB*

      One company I worked for gave us smoke detector batteries to take home every year. (This was years ago before anyone was working at home.)

      Obviously they weren’t required to do so, but it was a relatively cheap way of showing goodwill and maybe helping to prevent a fire.

    11. Hellyeah227*

      You could just give a set flat fee per person each year and say they can purchase whatever office supplies they need to work from home. Some people could buy pens — others could buy air filters, some people could put an extra $200 toward their mortgage…whatever works for them.

    12. Anonymous Luddite*

      Just as a thought: My wife’s company provides a flat $40 per month. It can be for electricity or bin liners or save it and use it for a standing desk.

    13. introverted af*

      If they’re living in an apartment, shouldn’t that be covered by the apartment manager/etc. as part of regular maintenance on their HVAC system? Or is this some additional device they got?

      1. Oh No She Di'int*

        This is a separate device. But the overwhelming consensus seems to be that the air filter request was too much.

        1. I.*

          I live in wildfire country and I’d be mildly sympathetic to that request during forced wfh (staying inside with windows shut 24/7 sucks and you’re breathing worse air 5 days a week than you would be in an office). But it’s not forced anymore, they have the option to come in. A lump sum sounds best to me too, it’s a good way for employees to manage their own needs since everyone’s needs are so different. And you are not being unreasonable.

    14. Dancing Otter*

      Yeah, no on the bin liners. What next, sending the company’s janitorial service to clean for them?
      Would you buy that employee an air filter for their office? Do you provide free coffee in the office? On those, I’d try to parallel the in-office supplies as much as possible.
      What I hope you are already doing is subsidizing part of the cost of their internet service, and phone if they have a lot of business calls.

    15. RagingADHD*

      Why would they need air filters to work, and not to just be in the house without working? By that logic you’d need to reimburse toilet paper because they can’t use the office bathroom.

      There are certain costs associated with being at home more, but they are more than offset by the savings in commuting costs and other expenses associated with being away from home more (wardrobe, lunches or convenience foods, etc.)

    16. All Het Up About It*

      I like the flat fee option other have recommended here, as it simplifies things for the employees and employer.

      I have to say though, that I’m just shocked that you are getting pushback on these. Is there something else going on? Are your employees horribly underpaid so they are looking at any way to get money from the company that they can? Are they all working in tiny apartments and actually WANT to return to the office? Is wannabe air filter filer, just a difficult person who makes unreasonable demands any chance they get?

      It’s just so bizarre, it seems like there has to be some other underlying cause.

    17. Green great dragon*

      Yeh, flat amount for small consumables. Make it reasonably generous and most people will likely be quite content that they’ve enough to keep their kids in post-its too.
      Specific list of any things that can get reimbursed on top – eg specific task that gets an extra stipend because, say, it requires them to print inordinate amounts.

    18. AcademiaNut*

      Yeah, you don’t get reimbursed for coffee filters, bin liners, or the like, in the same way you don’t get reimbursed for your commute, office clothing, dog walker, or buying a slow cooker because you have less time to cook dinner. There are perks that come with the office like free coffee, and perks that come with working from home, like being able to run a load of laundry during your work day.

      I would say a small monthly stipend for incidentals, to be spent as they want (printer, ink, paper, pens, desk lamp, that sort of thing, without receipts required), an initial setup fee for office equipment like a desk chair (receipts/approval required), and a system for replacing worn out equipment for longer term employees.

      I would actually be interested in hearing from an ADA lawyer about how environmental accommodations would be handled. For an in office employee, a HEPA filter or a broad spectrum lamp might be a reasonable accommodation, but would they be required to buy them for a remote employee, particularly if it’s something the employee would need to own irrespective of employment.

    19. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Batteries make sense only for a company-supplied wireless device.
      Air filters only if they’re doing company woodworking projects at home.

  15. I raddish the idea of salad*

    Work from home desks: sitting or standing, but not both. Your experiences?

    We’re building a new home and moving in next month. I will finally have my own office and the goal is to work from home. I don’t like the ugly sit/stand desks and I don’t want a prop on top of a desk to make it into a standing desk. I have to decide: sitting or standing?

    Etsy has nice handmade standing or sitting desks. I prefer a handmade one vs those in big brand stores.

    If I choose a sitting desk, I have reasons to get up and walk around – 2 dachshunds.

    So, why a standing desk? I can also use it for my crafts and artwork which I can’t do as well with a sitting desk.

    1. BlueBelle*

      I have a standing desk and then I have a club chair with a rolling small laptop desk. I work from the standing desk and sit for some calls and meetings.

      1. I raddish the idea of salad*

        Hmmm wildly simple solution. Thank you. I didn’t want too many pieces in the room, it’s 11′ x 11′ and one wall will be a repurposed hoosier for my art supplies, but maybe that can go into the closet?

        Thinking, measuring, contemplating….

    2. Golfer Girl*

      I’d go with standing and get a high chair or stool in case you decide you occasionally want to sit.

      1. I raddish the idea of salad*

        A high chair/stool… another simple solution. This is why I come here! Thank you so much….

        1. Llellayena*

          Look at studio chairs to find adjustable ones that can go pretty high and invest in a footstool for when you use the chair. Dangling feet get very annoying very fast.

    3. Reba*

      I’m not sure what “ugly” means to you, but I have a motorized adjustable sit/stand desk, and it just looks like… a desk.

      You could do standing but also get a high work chair or stool, to get the flexibility that way.

      1. I raddish the idea of salad*

        Ugly meaning how sterile most of the desks look. My room is a bit small and multi-purpose (arts/crafts, work and fitness) Trying to keep it streamlined. But I 2nd the stool/high work chair option. Thank you!

    4. mcl*

      I have a sit/stand desk at work, and it’s literally just a tabletop with two legs that have hydraulics in them. It was a sit-only desk and then the magic legs were added on. It is not obviously sit/stand except for a small button that powers the lift. I guess I’m saying that you CAN have both! :)

      1. Lady Danbury*

        Do you have any idea what the brand/product name of the adjustable legs are? I’m trying to find something similar but so far the results have all been for risers that sit on top of a regular desk. Thanks!

    5. Colette*

      I have a floating desk, which I put at standing height. I use a drafting (higher than normal) chair when I want to sit.

      So I’d go for standing.

    6. Mockingjay*

      We bought a house six months ago and the previous owner made his own desk. He bought leftover stock kitchen cabinets from a home improvement store, set them against the wall far apart, and installed a laminate counter on top. The cabinets are tall, so I use a drafting chair to sit, but it’s also the right height to stand if I need a break. It’s a very long work surface, which I love, and the full size double door cabinets on either side have tons of storage, including top drawers within easy reach. He even drilled holes in the laminate top and added the plastic computer cord inserts to run cords to the plugs below.

      Only downside is finding a good drafting chair; I bought a fairly cheap model from Staples and the seat cushion is already flattened. Don’t skimp on the chair if you do something like this.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        I did similar at one point — not built into a wall, but I basically built a big standing desk out of Ikea shelving units (at the time they were Expedit, now the equivalent is Kallax) and a countertop, and when I wanted to sit down I had a drafting stool that otherwise stayed tucked under the desk.

    7. cubone*

      I have a sit/stand and it is an absolutely gorgeous, reclaimed elm wood top (AnthroDesk). It was a chunk of change, but I’ve done the math on how many days I’ve had it vs cost and it’s at like $5/day (and only going down). To me that’s been extremely worth it.

      I do want to add, while I get it’s a huge privilege to have choice at all, I injured my back in the summer and my physiotherapist was very clear that the sit vs stand debate is about variety and change. No, our bodies do not like sitting at a desk all day, but they also don’t like standing on our feet nonstop either. Prior to the injury, I would stand for 1 hour twice a day; since this advice I’ve changed to swapping every 30 minutes. If the clock is at :00 or :30, I do the opposite of what I’m doing currently (obviously sometimes I choose to stay in one for longer, esp if I’m in a zone and don’t want to disrupt my focus, or somethings feeling more comfortable). This has been LIGHT YEARS better than sitting OR standing all day. Just something to think about! I think the advice of a standing desk + high stool would be the best if you’re tied to one or the other (get a good anti fatigue mat too).

      1. I raddish the idea of salad*

        I have scoliosis and your outline sounds very reasonable. A bad chair hurts as does standing all the time. You all make compelling arguments for the ability to do both throughout the day. I was sure that I only had one option in order not to make my office look like a desk store. Thank you.

        1. cubone*

          Yeah, I didn’t realize how badly I hyperextend my knees while standing, so that was causing some issues too. Good luck! I hope you find one.

      2. Quinalla*

        Yup, this is my take, you need to mix it up. I have a simple sit/stand desk at home and I love it so I can get some standing in at times, but sit when I need to for tasks or to switch it up. I would seriously consider a sit/stand personally if you can find one you like.

    8. Irish girl*

      I have nice desk that does not look like a sit stand but does both. Looks like a regular wood sit desk with drawers on the side but the top part can lift up.

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Sitting. Plan ahead — you may someday have a sprained ankle or a medical issue. Maybe add a foldout standing station on a nearby wall, or occasionally work at a foldout quilting table–but don’t limit your future you to only days you can always stand 100%.

  16. Escaped a Work Cult*

    I have a new job!! I’m waiting for the offer letter and need to get through the background check and drug test. My new company is hoping for a Nov 29th start date but giving my two weeks would mean it happens today to meet that. It’s fine to push back on the start date? Should I cut my two weeks short?

    My current work has had my boss curse at me and I’m miserable. I’m getting advice to cut early but I really don’t want to burn a bridge.

    1. Chc34*

      Congrats on the new job! Definitely do not give your two weeks notice until you have the offer letter and have passed the background check and drug test. I would push back on the start date and tell them that you’ll be able to start after giving two weeks notice to your current job, which you’ll be able to do after all those have been completed. A reasonable company will be fine with that.

      I know you’re miserable, but if you can at all manage it, I wouldn’t cut your notice period short.

      1. L. Ron Jeremy*

        +100%. I waited almost 3 months to give my two weeks notice after I had my offer letter in hand while my new company completed the background check.

        Let them know you’re waiting until they give you the all clear before you give your two weeks notice.

        1. Escaped a Work Cult*

          I definitely appreciate this! Validates my feelings on this, especially since I’ve had a majority of people advise the other way. I really do not want to walk back a resignation since the consequences will be dire.

          1. CupcakeCounter*

            Yeah – definitely wait to pass everything to turn in your notice. As someone else pointed out, it could also serve as a bit of a red flag if the other company encourages you to not give two weeks (there are a few exceptions such as a set-in-stone kickoff of a large, preplanned project you will be a key part of or beginning of a term/semester but those would be rare and hopefully fully explained before hand why there is a very firm start date).
            If your current employer is the type to cut off their nose to spite their face, maybe they will perp walk you out the door the day you give notice so you can then call new place and let them know the new circumstances and you can start at the original proposed date if that still works for them.
            I also agree with another piece of advice given to take at least a couple days to decompress and refresh yourself between roles. I only took 3 days after a particularly bad job because of finances and timing of their fiscal calendar and it was rough. I was so busy those few days trying to cram in a bunch of appointments and shopping for the dress code differences between jobs that my brain and body never really got time to reset. I ended up getting sick within 2 weeks of starting the new job and having to take almost a week anyway. Would have been much better for all involved if I had just pushed for that week up front.

        2. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

          Agree 110%. I also think it’s important to take a little time off between jobs to clear your head and reset. Say a week, on top of the two week notice period. Any reasonable employer will understand this.

    2. Name (Required)*

      I would not cut your notice period short – it will indeed burn a bridge, most likely. Your new employer should understand that the start date will need to be pushed back in order for background check and drug test to be complete, you to get an unconditional offer and therefore able to give notice to your current employer.

      1. WellRed*

        It looks like you are waiting on an actual offer letter and background check so this, to me, doesn’t even count as pushing back.

    4. SofiaDeo*

      Unless the offer, background check, and drug test are all finalized today, if the new company tries to pressure or guilt you into the Nov 29 start date, take a polite ” oh I thought the 29th start date was based on everything being finalized 2 weeks before Nov 29. Since it didn’t, it will have to be 2 weeks from (whatever day they finally clear everything/give you the offer in writing/give you notice of clearing the background check & drug test). Maybe consider calling whoever is handling all this to politely mention that a Nov 29 start was requested, and things need to happen to meet that target. Everyone IS stressed/overwhelmed/forgetful.

    5. Observer*

      Push back. If they give you a hard time, that’s a sign that you may be jumping from the firing pan into the fire.

      1. Maxie's Mommy*

        If they want to push on someone, tell them to push on the person doing the background check. They don’t get to push on you.

    6. Purple Cat*

      Absolutely push back your start date!
      “reasonable” companies shouldn’t expect new employees to start sooner than 2 weeks from giving notice, which means 2 weeks from clearing background checks/drug tests.
      Check the archives for people who have been burned by giving notice before everything was officially tied off.

    7. Cod, Fire and Bees*

      Escape,

      What do you want in this situation? Seems like your choices are to make yourself miserable by pushing back the starting date so you can spend more time getting screamed at or leave early and possibly burn a bridge. Be aware that the screaming boss may not have you work your notice period anyway, so your financial ability to be able to be without pay during what you thought your notice period would be might be a factor.

      Personally, I would prioritize myself and the hopefully better job over a boss and company that are making me miserable.

      Resign in cod and run from the bees!

    8. AnonToday*

      My manager just told an incoming candidate (who has accepted the position pending HR) that they absolutely SHOULD NOT give notice until all the checks and steps are confirmed, and that they should give a full two weeks’ notice. We’d rather have them start a few days later than leave them hanging between paychecks if something gets delayed or takes longer than expected. Nor do we want to ask them to burn a bridge with their current employer.

      On a tangent, decades ago, I did hiring at a jobshop. My manager told me to try and convince a candidate to give less than a week’s notice to his current assignment so he could come work on ours. I was dumbfounded, and actually had the gumption to say, “But, but, [Name], that would be wrong. Would you want someone to do that to us?”

  17. anon3this*

    Have you ever been in a situation where it feels like you’re somehow expected to know information you haven’t been told? I’m newish to my job and performing a complicated series of steps (think 100+ pages of instructions) and our documentation is out of date in certain places. However, whenever I ask questions about a step, I feel like the response I get most often is ‘there’s instructions for this’ or ‘that’s in the documentation.’ I usually never push back and sometimes ask where I might be able to find this, but usually my manager doesn’t know (because we have many different documentation sources). Or they do find it, but it’s in a place I would have no idea to look (like a section of documentation that says “OUTDATED” in the section title. I worry I come off like I’m not trying, so when I ask questions I specify everywhere I’ve looked for help, but I still feel like this interaction happens a lot. And sometimes the answer is that the documentation doesn’t exist at all… I update the documentation as I go so this will be easier for newcomers, but right now it’s pretty slow for me to search several large documents / email chains for help, then ask for help, implement the needed step, and update the documentation to include this. I am encouraged to ask questions and encouraged to update documentation, but I worry I come off as incompetent or slow. Any advice?

    1. Goose*

      One of the big reasons I’m looking to leave my current job. Any documentation is “in the Drive” and then I’m scolded for not knowing something I can’t find. I’m hoping to leave my successor with more updated files…but I worry they won’t be able to find them because there is NO organization to the drive.

      2. anon3this*

        Yeah, in my case I’m not being scolded or anything. I think I’m mostly just worrying about how I come off and expressing frustration at systems that are disorganized and make me seem like I’m disorganized.

        Another thing that really annoys me is when documentation doesn’t match what I’m doing. For example, say I’m making a fruit cake and I need blueberries and the instructions say to pull them out of the fridge. When I look, they aren’t there but when I ask, I’m told “for this project, blueberries are on the counter. It says so in long email chain I forwarded to you” Not in an unkind way, just I feel super frustrated a lot of the time. How was I supposed to know?? Also sometimes we’ll be dealing with blackberries and there are no instructions at all for this but I’m supposed to know to treat them like blueberries. I’m sure this becomes obvious as you do the workflow more, but for me, it’s not!!

        1. Observer*

          I think you are over thinking this. Not the frustration- what you are describing really is crazy making. But as long as you’re doing reasonable things and you are getting reasonable responses, you’re fine.

          Do let your boss know that you are updating the documentation as you go along. That should help with any lingering perception issues.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’d approach it as “thanks for you continued help in updating the documentation. I’ve come to another point where the instructions are out of date/missing. Can you help update/flesh out this part?”

      1. anon3this*

        Thanks Rusty! I think I’ve done something similar sometimes (though I really like your wording). One thing I’ve noticed happens is my manager will want to do the workflow together quickly (she’ll direct me verbally with what the steps are) and I don’t have time to write them down. I do my best to add everything after the fact, but ideally I’d be able to find a way to say “sorry, I need to pause and write this down” and keep notes as we do the steps. But I worry because my manager’s time is more valuable than mine and she seems a little frustrated when I’m slow when she verbally directs me with the steps (not frustrated with me per se, but she always seems like she’s interested in doing things as quickly as possible).

        1. Documentator*

          Oh I totally feel you on the “can’t write fast enough”! I had to really get used to asking people to pause so I can write. In the end, it’s saving time so you don’t have to ask again!

          Also, I write absurdly sloppy notes, then type them neatly and in logical order when I’m not talking with others.

        2. Hlao-roo*

          In the moment, a “sorry, I need to pause and write this down” is a great thing to say if your manager is reasonable. If you have 1-on-1s with her (or any other time when you’re discussing work and projects more generally), I think it would be worth addressing the pattern. “Boss, I’ve noticed that some steps in the documentation are missing or outdated. When you walk me through the process, I like to take notes so I can update the documentation later. I just want to give you some context for why it might seem like I’m slow to work through all the steps.” It might also be a good time to ask if there is a better way to update the documentation. A peer who knows the updated steps? A standard written by a 3rd party you can use for guidance? I don’t know what it would look like in your context, but your manager may have some ideas.

        3. Observer*

          You could explicitly say “I need to pause to write this down so I don’t have to come back to you” or you can ask if she’d prefer that you record what she is saying and you’ll transcribe later. Either way, she’ll see that you respect her time and are tying to be mindful.

        4. Not So NewReader*

          Would she let you record it on your phone? Explain that you will play it back later and write it out because you don’t want to make her wait for you to write it.

          I have a friend who takes a mini-recorder into meetings. She takes the notes for the meeting. She puts down on paper as much as possible and then fills in the blanks later.

          I have been in this situation and it sucks. I think the best you can do is endeavor not to ask the same question twice. Keep a notebook at your desk for the random bit of YOUR job that you learn. (sigh, training, it’s a thing, bosses.) One thing I did that was helpful was put a date and subject for each note. 11/12/21 Llama shampoo. Use 1/4 cup per bucket of water even though the package says 1/2 cup. 11/11/21 Alpaca food. Report low supply when 50% of the food is used up.

          I did this for a while, then I decided to start a new notebook where I alphabetized the notes by subject. And I made an index as I went along. This is kind of like journalling but for work.

    3. Reba*

      “I usually never push back” so are folks aware that the documentation is outdated/wrong/non existent? Like, people are telling you to go to the documents, but do they know that this is bad advice? I feel like it’s important to clarify this with your manager or other people you ask for help. It doesn’t have to be like a conflict or complaining, but just being gently assertive about what you are dealing with.

      And/or, do you feel like you could have a chat with your manager in which you said some of this? “I realize I’m spending a lot of time updating the old documents and coming to you with what sometimes feels like a lot of questions. Would you say this is an expected amount of work to get up to speed on these things from zero? I do feel like I’m contributing by improving the quality of documentation quite a lot. But is there anything you would like to see me doing differently in this area?”

      1. anon3this*

        People are aware the documentation is out of date, though they probably underestimate how out of date it is. It’s a process that changes/updates a lot so it seems like some part is always out of date. When I get a specific “that’s in this document” advice, I’m not often able to open that while conversing with them, though I sometimes find later that it’s not there. In that case, I usually ping the person to say I couldn’t find it in the place they suggested, is there another place I should look?

        I have had one chat with my manager where I said something similar (feeling like I asked a lot of questions, feeling slow) and I was assured that asking questions is good, if anything ask them sooner, and speed-wise I seem fine. I haven’t asked the ‘is there anything you’d like to see me doing differently’ question but that is a great one and I will ask at our next 1:1.

        1. ecnaseener*

          Well, that’s good! Take your manager at her word that you’re doing fine. It’s definitely frustrating to not have the tools you need, but it doesn’t sound like anyone’s blaming you for that.

        2. tangerineRose*

          Sounds like you’re doing OK then. Taking notes, updating the documentation, and letting people know where you’ve looked for doc, asking a question about a specific piece of documentation (and referencing it so they know that’s what you’re asking about) are all good things to do, and you’re doing them. In a company with disorganized, not always up-to-date doc, all these questions from a new person are probably pretty normal.

    4. Anon for now*

      Have you ever been in a situation where it feels like you’re somehow expected to know information you haven’t been told?

      YUP. Response to me asking for help/training/more info? “You need to figure it out.”

    5. Documentator*

      At a previous job, I literally rewrote the training manual as I learned the job. I had to ask SO many questions, it felt quite awkward. I figured out that it felt better on my end if I approached with the existing pages (however out of date) with the missing info marked with sticky notes. Most people I asked didn’t need to see the old stuff though, it just let me feel like I had done my due diligence.

      It’s important to note that part of your job (at least for now) is to fill in this missing documentation! It might help you to consider asking these questions a job requirement rather than an imposition on others.

      Lastly, just for the sake of easy searching right now, can you create a new (digital) document that is just copies of all the different things you’re searching? Then the “ctrl-f” search function can look at all of them at once. (This might not be helpful if you’ve only got paper copies of some documents).

    6. Anonymous Luddite*

      Our local guy who maintains the intranet loves to get pissy and say it’s on the site.
      After about the 20th time, I told him that UI is like a joke: If you have to explain it, it’s not very good.
      In retrospect, it wasn’t the most polite way to tell him it sucked, but he’s finally taking steps to fix stuff.

      Were I in your position, I would print out the outdated instructions, write corrections, and ask who to submit the updates to. But that’s me leveraging my position as a degreed, middle aged, middle class, cis-, het-, white dude.

    7. CupcakeCounter*

      YES!
      And then when I mention that the documentation is outdate of missing a step I get “Well the documentation is only a guide” or “I wasn’t responsible for keeping it updated” or “I understand it just fine so I’m not sure what your problem is”. Of course you understand it…you’ve worked in the system for 15 years! I got my password 5 minute ago.
      I started updating the docs the person lost their ever loving mind…how DARE I TOUCH THEIR PERFECT DOCS!…then tattled to my boss. (Did a file save as so her originals were not modified.)
      Luckily boss is working to manage that person out (incredibly smart and full of institutional knowledge but simply shouldn’t work with a team/subordinates) and has complimented my docs and I’m even getting compliments and requests for help updating other docs from coworkers. My favorite was the email to the whole team from a coworker (who just doesn’t give AF about Little Miss Perfect) thanking me for writing the updated doc, saving it in a common location, and commenting about how awesome it was to finally have someone on the team who understands that not everyone has the same familiarity with systems or Excel and really spells out instructions step by step AND puts some explanations and reasoning in the doc for why something is done one way for this data set and this other way for a different data set.
      Even better was it was after a team department meeting where LMP stated that documents and procedures are useless since everyone knows their job. Which also happened to be the day after she sent a scathing email to the whole department about how many mistakes she was finding in various file. The department had over 50% turnover (because of her) but in her mind she showed them once how to do it so now they are experts.
      Yeah…I get it

    8. Choggy*

      Yeah, I wish those types of jobs had descriptions that include “Need to be able to learn by osmosis”. But I’ve also been on the other side, training and documentation provided, but to no avail. I can teach you how to do something, but I can’t learn it for you.

  18. Ruth*

    I’m going to be job hunting in a couple of months and aiming for a 100% remote job. I’ve done remote here and there in previous/current jobs, but never see the default. I did get two degrees entirely online and know from that as well as the few remote periods at other jobs that i can work well remotely, but I’m not sure how to frame myself for that but resume/cover letter/LinkedIn/etc.

    I do also worry about navigating the social aspect of remote work as I get a lot of it being around people. I understand that is part and parcel of remote working and I accept it, but am still a little concerned.

    Any advice on either would be very much appreciated! This is such a great blog and community and I’m hoping to be a bigger part of it in the future!

    1. fueled by coffee*

      Rather than focusing on working well “remotely” (as in, away from the office), I’d focus on your ability to work *independently.* Lots of people are looking for remote work right now for very obvious reasons, and I think you just need to demonstrate in your materials that your supervisor can assign you work to do and you will be able to complete that work well and on time, regardless of where you are physically located.

      1. Ruth*

        I hadn’t thought of that but it makes a lot of sense, thank you! I’ll make a point of emphasizing that in my wording.

    2. Moonbeam*

      In your job search, you should seek companies that have either a good reputation for remote work, or have a good “pitch” for their remote work culture. Those companies will often be proactive in sharing those details with you (e.g. on their website or job ads), but if you’re looking for more assurance of that aspect of the position try tailoring your own questions to get a good sense of their remote work culture. Such as “how do you promote a healthy team culture for your remote employees”.

  19. The Smiling Pug*

    Does anyone know of any WFH jobs that are legit and geared towards those seeking to transition out of reception/admin work?

    1. Goose*

      Can you be more specific in what you’re looking to move to? Many jobs are remote at the moment, and your best bet is leveraging your current skills and write a great cover letter explaining why you want to and would be a good fit for transitioning to that new type of role.

      1. The Smiling Pug*

        Sure thing! Right now I’m looking to move to either full-time copywriting/editing or marketing. I’m also looking for something that doesn’t require me to work evenings and weekends, as I have a podcast and I’d like a life outside of work.

        1. Chauncy Gardener*

          I’m at a small company, everyone is remote. Up until recently, we had a part-time marketing person. Now we have one who is full time, and also 100% remote. We are a software partner company. We work 9-5, basically. We advertise on Indeed and also on job boards that specialize in fully remote positions. Hope this helps.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Check out the Mom Project (you don’t have to be a mom or a woman). I was looking for remote work before the pandemic, and there were lots of opportunities on there. None quite right for me, but some good ones.

      Since you mentioned marketing and copywriting, try Creative Circle as well.

  20. Author Lady*

    Whew, I’ve been waiting all week to come ask for advice and opinions!

    A couple of years ago, I voluntarily left the work force in order to start a family. My husband and I had been planning and saving for this for quite some time, and I knew I wanted to spend at least a couple of years raising my kids before rushing back off to work.

    During my time home, I have finally been able to follow an old dream of writing and publishing a novel. I’m at the beginning stages of publishing now.

    When I do go back to work, I have decided that I want to get a teaching license in my field and move into teaching (I’ve always worked in a more research-based role). Having kids has allowed me to realize how much I like working with kids.

    So, this is the rub: Will having this novel published under my name prevent me from becoming a teacher because it would be considered inappropriate? For context, my novel is an adult fantasy novel with adult themes and mild sexual content, but it is not erotica or X-rated or anything of that nature.

    What do you think? Will this be a problem for me? I’m still going to publish my novel regardless, and I don’t want to use a pen name, so if you happen to see it then you’d know it’s me. But would this get in the way of potentially teaching children one day?

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      I mean, hard to say. Why not use a pen name and then you never need to worry about this issue?

    2. Metadata minion*

      If you’re teaching middle-schoolers or older, I would just have a script in place for how you’re going to react when your students find your book. Because they will.

      Are you in a very conservative area? Whether parents/administrators are scandalized (they shouldn’t be! they shouldn’t be even if you wrote straight-up erotica! but yeah, people get weird) seems like it would vary pretty considerably by region.

    4. reject187*

      Yeah, as a current teacher, some places won’t care, and others will care a LOT. I’d use a pen name if I was going to publish something even remotely risque. You’ve heard the stories of teachers being fired for posting pictures on Facebook during summer with alcoholic beverages. On the other hand, my high school English teacher published a horse girl romance novel with a brief sex scene and no one rioted. But that was after he’d been teaching there for some time and had established his reputation as a good teacher.

    5. Nela*

      Someone I know is a preschool teacher and uses a pen name for her fantasy novels (YA I believe but not sure, I haven’t read them). She told me that she didn’t want principals to see it as a “liability”. I assume she meant that parents might find an issue with it – her students are too young to care.

    6. mreasy*

      I would use a pen name. It only takes one flighty parent with school board sway to cause trouble for you.

    7. Shiba Dad*

      First. congratulations on publishing a novel. That’s quite an achievement.

      That said, I’d recommend using a pen name. Parents can be extremely puritanical. For example, I know teachers who are worried about the scenario reject187 mentioned regarding alcohol.

      Also, if a kid doesn’t like you and finds the book, they or their parents could make a big deal out of it.

    8. Storm in a teacup*

      I guess it also depends on what future novels you want to write?
      Maybe using a pen name will mean you are able to have more freedom to write about what you want without worrying about the day job.
      Or if you have a common enough surname maybe just your first initial and surname?

    10. Write what you love*

      A published author friend is currently in a conundrum of trying to get a couple of forays into more adult fantasy themes that she published under a pen name, but are linked to her other author name by a trade article, erased from connection with her because they are causing issues for her own children and family and for a few other reasons. She had always intended to keep them separate, but they have been merged professionally because there’s an unbiased published source detailing the connection, so she can’t even get Wikipedia to remove those works she no longer wants to be associated with, from her primary professional biography.

      If you’re going to publish this novel then you’re going to have to accept that you – and the people who love you and are associated with you – will be connected with it in the future. Some of those connections will be positive, many will be neutral, and there will be some negative. If you are open about it, a resilient person and willing to own the consequences, I say go for it. Even a pen name may not be the shield others are offering, especially if your work is popular and gains a following.

    11. CupcakeCounter*

      What about using your initials and maiden name as a pen name? Its still you but harder to recognize.

    12. Dino*

      Yes, it will be a liability, or at least something you’ll have to worry about every time you job search.

      Not quite the question you’re asking, but enjoying working with your own kids is very different from managing 30+ random kids, plus having to deal with the adults you’ll be working with. If you really don’t want a pen name, and you don’t have experience working in schools yet (so you haven’t experienced it firsthand), I’d dig really deep into what the working conditions are for teachers to see if that’s the path you want to go down. There are other ways to work with kids that aren’t teaching.

    13. AdequateAdmin*

      I would absolutely use a pen name.

      I write queer fantasy and I write under a pen name. Mine’s purposely very gender neutral to make it even harder to link it back to me. People can be super weird about stuff and I like having the option to bring up my writing on my own terms if I feel like it versus being forced to because someone googled me. And like everyone else has brought up, people can be especially bizarre about what they think educators should or should not do in their spare time.

      But if you’re completely against a pen name, maybe consider changing up the spelling of the name you put on your book? Like “Kathryn Howerd” instead of “Catherine Howard”?

    14. A Teacher*

      This is going to depend very much on the location and type of school you want to work in. But yeah, it could be very damaging for a career in teaching, sadly, assuming your name is unusual or uncommon enough to as identifiable as you, and I’d strongly urge you to reconsider using a pseudonym. Otherwise, it’s always going to be an issue.

      1. A Teacher*

        Also, this line worries me a bit: “Having kids has allowed me to realize how much I like working with kids.”

        It’s not the same thing, at all. And unless you have experience of working with large groups of other kids, I’d be very cautious about assuming you want to be a teacher. Way too many people think they’ll like teaching for the wrong reasons, then flame out when they discover the reality,

    15. Anon for This*

      My brother published using his middle name in place of his first for similar reasons. Publishing your book under your own name may not prevent you from becoming a teacher as there is always a need (and given your research-based work, I’m guessing in a STEM field) but it could prevent you from working at the school(s) you prefer.

    16. NancyDrew*

      Where you live, this might be a bigger or smaller risk. But to be on the safe side, use a pen name.

      1. NancyDrew*

        And by the way — If you’re concerned about using a pen name because you want to be able to use your writing on your resume, you can still reveal that you write under a pen name in your CV materials. so if you want to include it as an accomplishment, you can — just not super publicly.

        I ghostwrite (as well as publish under my own name), and my agent absolutely has permission to reveal my ghostwritten books when she’s pitching me to publishers. I don’t list them on my website because I signed NDAs, but I’m still able to reveal to the appropriate people as needed.

  21. Lizy*

    Networking – I’ve reached out to a contact and she’s graciously offered to help in my search for a position. How often should I touch base with her?

    1. cubone*

      Is there any specifics of how she will be helping? Eg. passing along postings if she sees things that would be a good fit, mentorship, resume advice, etc.? I think the answer is really dependent about what you both understood “help” to mean in this context. If “I’ll help you search by keeping an eye out for positions”, I frankly wouldn’t touch base that often, since that to me is a “don’t call me, I’ll you” (in a generous, polite way!).

    2. TulipBird*

      This is kind of a strange request, I wouldn’t expect anyone to help me find jobs or search for postings for me. I wouldn’t contact her more than once to ask if she’s come across any job postings.

      1. Lizy*

        I had applied for a position with her company and basically just told her that and said if she wanted to put in a good word that would be awesome. She offered the rest.

  22. AlexandrinaVictoria*

    In the past year, my company has demoted me (same job description, moved from exempt to hourly with no overtime allowed), given me a 1.5 % “raise” to keep me in line with a new company we have acquired, and has gotten rid of my excellent health insurance plan, which leaves me having to pay more per paycheck for much less coverage. When I’m interviewing for jobs at other companies (which I will be doing, no fear), how to I spin this when answering the “Why are you looking for a new job?” question?

    1. cmcinnyc*

      Am I reading correctly that you’re company went through a merger? That’s an easy one: “My company went through a merger X years ago and I’m not feeling like the result has left me being a great fit there.” So many people have been there.

      1. ThisIsTheHill*

        This. When I left my last job for myriad reasons, all that I said was, “In the 5 years that I was there, we went through 4 reorgs & the culture changed to the extent that I no longer felt like a good fit”. If they asked anything further, I’d explain that we went from a collaborative to siloed environment. Anyone who’s worked in a company during reorgs or mergers won’t bat an eye.

        1. Chauncy Gardener*

          This totally. Everyone understands what mergers do the employee base. No other explanation will be necessary!

    2. Little Lobster*

      You don’t have to spin it. You can lie. “I learned a lot and now I’m looking for something more challenging” is a fine go-to, and it’s not entirely untrue.

    3. Shiba Dad*

      Been there. Many years ago small company I worked for (25-25 employees) was acquired by a larger company (700-900 employees). Eventually our insurance plan was dropped for what the rest of the company had. Like you, less coverage and more employee contribution each paycheck.

      As far as what to say in interviews, you can say any number of things about how this acquisition has changed the company and your place in it.

    4. Cat Tree*

      I think it’s better to frame it as why you applied to the job you’re interviewing for, rather than why you are trying to leave your current place. Most employers ask that question because they want someone who is at least vaguely interested in the work. It’s not usually intended as an interrogation where you have to just job searching in general.

      So go with a nice version of why you applied to that job. Even if your main reason is “I desperately need to leave my current situation”, you had *some* reason for applying to that specific one over the hundreds of other postings that you browsed through. It could be as simple as “this particular job looks like a good fit for my experience/ expertise but is also an opportunity to learn new skills” and just leave your current job out of your answer.

  23. Potatoes gonna potate*

    I hope a double post is ok – I’ve been itching to ask this, and it ties in to the pay cut post above, while that’s more direct and time sensitive this is more broad. I know I said I can’t quit my job over this but….I’m finding myself at a crossroads and just needing…I don’t know, an ear, guidance, opinions etc.

    Quick history–I worked at firm for a few years, started as a preparer and got promoted to management before being laid off at the start of COVID. Did an extremely short stint contracting for a company, stopped and began a new role in August where I was let go after 6 weeks. (I was also pregnant around that time and had my kid that year).

    For a while, I felt really proud of myself that I got promoted up to management in my longtime position. But then struggling at my contracting gig and getting let go from the new position after a month really killed my self esteem. It’s taken me a while to accept the hard truth that I’m just not as skilled and competent as I thought I was.

    I haven’t done much in career development since then I did a little bookkeeping here and there and then went back to former company doing returns as a contractor. Things were fine until the pay cut.

    If I did an honest assessment of my own skills I’d say I’m still at the junior level. One thing I have learned over the last year from being in different groups and working freelance is that there is so much I don’t know. I didn’t major in accounting – just minored in it and took extra courses – but even if I did, I graduated in 2009 and I don’t remember anything from my major. Everything I learned, I learned on the job and continuing education.

    So now…..eventually I want to apply for junior positions but I’m worried that it’ll raise a red flag and i’m not sure how to actually explain “I worked for 6 years and rose to management but turns out I don’t know shit.”

    Also,…..I just can’t do tax season anymore. Not hte 80 hours, the stress etc. I haven’t worked a full tax season since 2019 and tbh I’m not sure I want to go back just yet. But tax & bookkeeping is what I know and the field I want to stay in. I’m willing to start at the bottom except I can’t survive and support my family on a minimum wage salary, but I can’t afford to work 60 hours a week anymore. So I feel stuck

    1. Reba*

      This sounds very tough. I wonder if you are being too harsh on yourself. “Everything I learned, I learned on the job and continuing education.” This seems… good to me?

      Is there anyone in your professional network, maybe someone a little older, who you could ask for their assessment of your work and potential paths away from tax season?

      Would freelancing for smaller clients and building up a stable of ongoing but smallish, regular bookkeeping sound appealing or possible for you?

      1. Potatoes gonna potate*

        I don’t think I am – I see my peers and I know I don’t know as much as they do. What you put in the last para does sound appealing

        1. Reba*

          I used to work at a very small business (3 people) and we had these cool bookkeepers who were sisters who worked together, they would come by for a few hours 2x a month to go over the accounts, cut checks and so on. Most of their business was small clients like that.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          You are actually a very strong person with a strong work ethic. I would not have lasted as long as you have in tax prep.
          Where ever you go you are still that strong person with a strong work ethic and these two things will carry you though a lot.
          I think the bookkeeping suggestion is a great idea. I’d like to add that small municipalities around here are always looking for PT bookkeepers. (Rural area, less choices for hiring.) I also see plenty of wfh jobs.

    2. Aaron Burr, Sir*

      Sounds like a bookkeeping/accounting position in a private company would be better for you than working in public accounting. Tax season can be brutal and I have had many colleagues over the years who have left Public Accounting and moved to private. The quality of life is so much better from Jan-April.

    3. Hlao-roo*

      I don’t think applying for junior roles in necessarily a red flag. I think an explanation can be along the lines of “I tried management/80 hour tax season weeks and those just aren’t for me. I enjoy the individual contributor work.” Lots of people try management and realize it’s not for them. I assume plenty of accountants are also sick of the tax season grind and look for lower stress roles.

    4. SofiaDeo*

      I am wondering with the desperate need for workers, if you can do contract tax/bookeping work for a company and INSIST on time boundaries. When I got a health condition that necessitated my taking at least a long weekend if not a full week off a normal 40 hour week every 6-8 weeks, I switched to contract work. As a contractor, you can always say “sorry I am already booked for that (day, week, whatever)” or “I am unavailable that (evening, weekend)”. As long as you can say “no”. If you are a big people pleaser, this may not be a great choice.

    5. Merci Dee*

      I worked for a couple of years in a public accounting firm, and then got let go when they had to downsize. I did the tax seasons, and they were crap. I really enjoyed the auditing aspect of the job, though. My next job was almost exclusively auditing with a government auditing department, and that worked for a while until I had a daughter and realized that working from client job sites was going to be hard to do, especially since some of those job sites were in far-flung areas of the state and I wasn’t going to be home every night. I finally landed in a private industry job, doing sales/use taxes and fixed asset management. Considering the substantial experience that I had with auditing before I took this position, the job has steadily grown to include more and more auditing (for instance, now my job duties include a review of the majority of our monthly invoices, excluding certain groups of raw materials invoies, to ensure that sales taxes on the purchases are correct before the invoices are approved by CFO and set up for payment). So I get the best parts of the auditing job that I loved (reviewing source docs to determine correct taxes on purchases, and managing fixed asset acquisition), but without the constant traveling that would have made it impossible to spend time with my daughter. I feel like I definitely came out on the winning side by moving into private industry.

  24. I can't be the only one*

    Lately I’m just struggling at work. I’m a high performer as confirmed by my boss. I keep getting more work put on my plate and I just can’t do it all. I honestly can’t tell if it’s me (would I have been able to handle this level of work two years ago), or if it’s just too much. Like many folks, I think this last year + just took it out of me. How do you know when you have too much work to do, or if it’s you that isn’t performing?

    1. hamsterpants*

      I think the distinction doesn’t have to matter. It’s too much for you right now. Time to have a conversation with your boss about task, prioritization, your career, and additional support you need.

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      When was the last time you were able to take some proper time off and unplug? As for your question about if it’s you that isn’t performing to you have any metrics/KPIs that you can look at and compare them to previous years? I sympathize with you as I’m in a similar boat with having a large workload and I’m still working hard I just….care less about it I suppose? I’m trying to push through these next couple weeks before unplugging for 2 weeks around Christmas.

    3. cubone*

      maybe I’m being a bit harsh, but frankly, a boss isn’t a very good boss if they are adding stuff to your plate without proactively asking you questions to determine if you can handle it (and not just “is there a spare 5 min in your day”, but a proper can you take this on and what would you need to rebalance to do so).

      Again, I could just be cynical, but if I had a dollar for every person I’ve known who said a variation of: “is it just me not being able to handle the workload” when the issue is clearly “the workload is beyond reasonable [and/or I’m not getting the right support/resources/training to manage this workload”, well, my bank account would put Jeff Bezos to shame.

    4. Dittany*

      Does it matter? The world is a more stressful place now than it was two years ago, and your workload has hugely increased. Of course you’re feeling burned out! Talk to your manager about lightening your workload, and take a vacation if you can.

      And don’t beat yourself up if you’re not the exact same person now that you were two years ago.

    5. Missb*

      I’m fully remote and confined to working 40 hours a week. I’m not allowed overtime. A person with the same sort of job description as me left their job and a big portion of their job has been loaded on to me “temporarily”. It’s been 6 months so far.

      I’m taking 10 days off soon and I just don’t care what happens when I’m gone. I’m hoping to forget my login details when I’m gone. I need a break.

      Also, my employer needs to hire someone to replace the former coworker, which they’re actively doing. It helps me to know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. You definitely need to talk to your boss about the increased work load.

  25. Frustrated Fox*

    My manager and I are supposed to have weekly check-ins, but he cancels them at the last minute at least 50% of the time. He is usually a bottleneck for my work and these check-ins are the only way I can ensure I get the information/approvals I need to make progress on my projects. Last week I met with him and shared a list of 3 files I needed him to send me this week so that I can move forward with my work. He said she would have no problem getting them to me on time. I then followed up directly after the meeting with an email so that he would have no excuse to forget. I have literally not heard from him since then!! We work remotely from different states, so if he doesn’t reply to my emails or texts, I’m basically at a loss. I was hoping to ask him about the files again at our check-in today, but he just canceled on me with no explanation. This is not the first time something like this has happened, and it throws off my projects every time. He’s very high up in the company and I’m the only person who reports directly to him. I feel weird going over his head to the CEO, but there’s nobody else above him, so should I just talk to the CEO about my frustration? It seems like such a petty thing to take to the literal head of the company.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Keep getting everything in writing, and be very specific. “I still need X and Y files from you – I’m a standstill on project Z until I get these. Do you have an estimate for when they’ll be ready?” Or maybe “Since I can’t do any more work on project Z until I get those files, is there anything else I could be working on?” But keep in mind that it’s entirely possible the CEO is perfectly happy with the status quo, and your manager may be working on other things that have been deemed more important. (Sucks not to tell you, though.)

      1. Anonymous Luddite*

        I’ll add that assuming you send the questions via email, if/when you do have your check-in with your boss, you tell him, “You can now delete all the emails I’ve sent you this week” so they have a visual cue that you are not waiting on them for anything.

    2. Ginger Baker*

      Does he have an admin? If so, please loop the admin in ASAP! They can chase as well and likely have a system in place to prompt him for things.

        1. Ginger Baker*

          Also an admin and I tell everyone they only need to cc me on emails to BossMan they want a response to lol. (I keep a running list, review with him at least weekly, things stay on the list Until Completed, and I can and will chase him down for more urgent items. This is by far one of the most valuable services I offer him and the firm.)

    3. JustMyImagination*

      Instead of easily to ignore messages like email and text, try calling. Talk and stay with manager on the phone while they send you the files.

    4. Joy*

      I think going over his head would be nuclear at this point.

      A couple questions – you say he’s the bottleneck for your work. Is he not responsible for the work your work feeds into? Who is accountable for your deadlines? If he’s approving them, it should be him. Are other people not reporting to him requiring your work directly from you? Has he communicated to you his expectations about deadlines? I’m assuming from your comments that you send your work directly to other people, but you need information or approval from him you can’t access or get on your own. The only way around this is to make him accountable for the deadline in some way, really.

      I’d have the meta-conversation with him – schedule a meeting, call him directly, hijack your next meeting, whatever works. State that you’ve found it difficult to meet deadlines because, and that you want to make sure you’re prioritizing & communicating your requests to him clearly. Ask what *he* wants you to do if you don’t hear back in time to make your deadline, and then repeat it back to him as a plan. “Okay, so you want me to move forward with the information I have. I’ll share my partial work with Fergus and let him know the complete product will be pending your input.” Or “Okay, so I should re-schedule a meeting for the next available timeslot on your calendar? In the meantime, I’ll let Fergus know we’re waiting on your input to proceed.” Or maybe there’s actually a way for him not to be the bottleneck – maybe you can get those files from somebody else, maybe he’s okay not signing off on every product, whatever.

    5. Your local password resetter*

      Did you talk to him about the pattern? That seems like the next step before going over his head.
      Maybe ask what he wants you to do when you’re waiting for his input, or how he wants to receive that?

    6. Stoppin' by to chat*

      It sounds like they may be too senior in the company to manage an employee well, and you would be better off reporting to someone that has time to manage. Could you suggest that? Or even identify another place for yourself at your company?

  26. bee*

    Just a hypothetical, honestly:

    I had to deal with worker’s comp for the first time this week (tripped and badly sprained my ankle, I’m a librarian so injuries aren’t exactly an expected part of the job). I work hybrid, though, and was wondering how it would work if I had done the exact same thing on one of my two days at home? I had to fill out an incident report with security, and a bunch of other paperwork, and I can’t imagine doing that at home. Would it even be a worker’s comp issue, since I was technically not “at work” even if it happened during work time? (If this is the case, that would have been MUCH easier, we have really good regular insurance and I could have gotten to a doctor way faster)

    I feel like the answer is probably a big ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ but I’m curious if others have had to deal with this, and if so what happened.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      If you work from home your employer is not responsible for the safe working conditions of your home. While it may not be your employers fault you tripped (I have been known to trip over my own feet and get badly hurt), part of the spirit of workers comp is that it incentivizes employers to make sure your workspace is set up safely to minimize the likelihood you hurt yourself.

      Y0u probably also aren’t doing activities such as shelving books at home where you might get hurt (not that shelving is dangerous it’s just the first physical activity I could think of).

      Now if say…your work provided monitor exploded at home and you were temporarily blinded by the shards? That might be a case to be heard. But for the most part if you’re at home you won’t have a claim.

      1. Bryan*

        It’s actually more complicated than that (at least in the US). Here’s an excerpt from an OSHA response where they question was about a person injured because she slipped while teleworking as she ran to check on her crying child”. Was it covered? Answer: No.
        ————————————–
        Section 1904.5(b)(7) states: How do I decide if a case is work-related when the employee is working at home? Injuries and illnesses that occur while an employee is working at home, including work in a home office, will be considered work-related if the injury or illness occurs while the employee is performing work for pay or compensation in the home, and the injury or illness is directly related to the performance of work rather than to the general home environment or setting. For example, if an employee drops a box of work documents and injures his or her foot, the case is considered work-related. If an employee’s fingernail is punctured by a needle from a sewing machine used to perform garment work at home, becomes infected and requires medical treatment, the injury is considered work-related. If an employee is injured because he or she trips on the family dog while rushing to answer a work phone call, the case is not considered work-related. If an employee working at home is electrocuted because of faulty home wiring, the injury is not considered work-related.

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          Thank you for correcting me – my last experience with this was pre-covid and I have a feeling the lawyers my organization at the time had were….not great.

    2. Panicked*

      Injuries while working remotely can, in some circumstances, be covered under worker’s comp. Our instructions from our WC carrier is to file a claim and let the adjuster determine whether it’s covered or not.

    3. JHB*

      The location doesn’t matter. Primarily it’s that the injury occurred while you were performing authorized work for your employer. I actually lived through this last year. We were at the end of a big project and I was working from home on a SATURDAY (normally M-F, 8-5 job). I was on a conference call, stood up from my chair, and managed to slip, badly spraining my knee.

      I figured between WFH and it being Saturday, I’d simply pursue it as a normal accident via my health insurance. No way. It was 100% a comp claim. My supervisor, HR, the questions on urgent care form. And be very careful. If there’s even a hint it is work-related, your insurance will not cover anything.

      1. Yep*

        That last sentence is the key. If you start out claiming it’s work related and are then declined, it is a fight x 100 to get your insurance provider to cover any claims or additional claims if an injury results in long term chronic issues.

        1. JHB*

          Frankly, I found the bureaucratic comp claim process a nightmare. But I was incentivized to see it thru. Mine was a really bad wrench that took almost a year to heal. I had been warned by several sources to be very careful what the doctor diagnosed and that the full remedy, recovery was completely documented. Otherwise any future problems with the knee – even years later – might be linked to this episode and regular insurance would refuse to cover treatment. And who DOESN’T have knee problems as they age?

    4. Miki*

      We just had a new/updated policies issued (like yesterday) and here is c/p from them about work comp:
      Injuries sustained by the employee while at their home-based work location and in conjunction
      with their regular work duties are normally covered by the university’s workers’ compensation
      policy. Employees working a remote and hybrid arrangement are responsible for notifying the
      university of such injuries in accordance with worker’s compensation procedures. The
      employee, and not the university, is responsible for any injuries sustained by visitors to their
      work site.

    5. Pharma Isn't All Evil*

      Worker’s comp would apply to whomever owned the property in which you were hurt. Recently, I stepped in a hole in the parking lot and sprained my ankle. My company leases so it was actually the property manager insurance that was looped in, not my employer. Had nothing to do with work at least in this situation.

      1. Delta Delta*

        Adventures in insurance subrogation! Your employer’s comp carrier would have sought reimbursement from the property owner’s carrier.

        Mr Delta is a workers’ comp legal expert. We talk about comp a lot at my house. A lot.

  27. BellaDiva*

    My husband is in IT. He is a team leader, and has one person on his team who has been there for about three years (“Nikko”). My husband likes Nikko, but is getting more and more frustrated with his lack of attention to detail and having to check his work for accurateness and completeness. He often has problems with his code, and Hubby finds the coding error within a minute (not exaggerated – literally a minute!) because he isn’t paying attention. Nikko only reads parts of emails, then replies with questions that are answered in that same email! Hubby spends at least one hour, often longer, per day going over code with Nikko, and then working late to finish his own projects. I’ve been trying to encourage him to loop in their manager, but he doesn’t want Nikko to lose his job because he’s a “nice guy”. What can I say to convince him that being a nice guy does not equal being able to get away with sloppy work?

    1. Reba*

      Well, he will keep making mistakes until one day he does a really costly one and your husband isn’t around… and then he’ll REALLY be fired. Whereas if he can implement some new habits with coaching, he probably won’t be!

      Jumping to the possibility of dude’s firing seems like catastrophizing — unless the mistakes are really dire, in which case it is actually irresponsible of your spouse to cover for him so much. It sounds to me like a lot of of this is solvable, and the parts that may not be, your spouse can’t be responsible for.

    2. Little Lobster*

      Nothing, probably. This isn’t your problem. Your husband is an adult and can make his own decisions when it comes to his job. Unless it’s directly affecting your relationship, let this one go. If the real issue is that you’re tired of hearing your husband complain about this person, tell him that since he doesn’t want to take concrete steps to fix the issue, you don’t want to hear about it anymore.

    3. Nicki Name*

      Standard answer: It’s not your workplace; it’s your husband’s, and he gets to make his own decisions and take the consequences.

      Geek answer: There are standard processes for dealing with sloppy code which it sounds like this team isn’t using. Peer reviews can catch mistakes without a manager having to get involved. Automated testing can look for newly introduced bugs. Yes, they add effort, but having Nikko micromanaged for an hour or more every day is taking time away from writing code too.

    4. CurtailedWhale*

      I’ll be answering this as someone who is a noob programmer (graduated 2020, been at this company developing software for 2.5 years). If one of my more senior coworkers consistently had issues with my work, I would appreciate it if they mentioned it to me for me to try and address by myself before bringing it up with a boss. It sounds like your husband is working with Nikko on individual problems as they come up, but maybe Nikko doesn’t see it as a problematic pattern. It’s possible your husband has already mentioned it or wouldn’t be comfortable having that discussion, and if that’s the case, it sounds like his options are to deal with things as they stand or bring it up to Nikko’s supervisor.

      Sidenote: showing your code to someone else and they find a typo in 1 minute happens to almost everyone. Sometimes you’ve been working on a problem long enough that it all just blends together and you need some fresh eyes. Just this week my team lead asked me to be fresh eyes on the problem and I quickly found a typo that fixed the problem.

    5. hamsterpants*

      If focus on the downsides to you and your husband. Is he working extra hours that take away from your time together or his responsibilities at home? Is he complaining a lot or unable to enjoy time away from work? Is his own work and career suffering? When Nikko finally makes a huge mistake that your husband misses (because it will happen), is your husband going to be in trouble?

      Right now I expect he’s treating this a victimless behavior, but it seems like you don’t see it this way.

    6. Observer*

      I’ve been trying to encourage him to loop in their manager, but he doesn’t want Nikko to lose his job because he’s a “nice guy”. What can I say to convince him that being a nice guy does not equal being able to get away with sloppy work?

      Maybe Niko is a nice guy and just incompetent, but he could also be not such a nice guy or a nice guy with issues that he’s not addressing, which is its own set of problems. I really do think you have to consider that when someone’s *behavior* is causing this much inconvenience for others, that maybe that person is not so nice.

      Why does your husband think that looping in the manager will mean that Niko loses his job? If Niko REALLY CANNOT do the job, then he needs to find something that he CAN do. But if he’s just being sloppy because you’re husband is covering for him, then he doesn’t have to lose his job. Rather, he can clean up his act, which is going to be FAR more likely once the boss gets looped in.

    7. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I hate to say it, but my experience with Nikko’s is that shielding them from the consequences of their sloppiness and mistakes just delays their coming to see the light.

    8. BellaDiva*

      To answer a few questions, the manager has expressed that he is not happy with Nikko, and Hubby doesn’t want to be the final nail in the coffin, so to speak.

      One example on how it impacts me directly is a daily covid-related report that has to be submitted to a government department by 6 a.m. Hubby has been getting up at 5:15 every single day (including weekends and vacations) since March 2020 to run the report, as he doesn’t feel comfortable asking Nikko to take on some days.

      As for typos, it includes using the wrong search/commands, not just missing a semi-colon (sorry, my one and only programming course was decades ago, so my terminology isn’t great).

      It’s not that Hubby complains to me all the time, but the opposite – he tends to internalize it unless I ask.

    9. ADHD Coder here*

      TBH Nikko sounds like my partner and I who both struggle with ADHD.

      Proper medication and treatment for the ADHD did wonders that all the PIPs and yelling and threats of losing jobs over the years could not.

      This is not trying to diagnose Nikko but I see a lot of advice being given in the thread above that is well-meaning but would be more effective for a neurotypical person than someone with ADHD. Nikko is not required to disclose any underlying neurodivergence of course, but there are a lot of results if you google “coding with ADHD” that might inspire some additional ways to work with Nikko in strengthening areas they need to improve. If they are open about their ND they might qualify for accommodations that can help.

      https://medium.com/@annoyed_pidgey/how-not-to-manage-an-employee-with-adhd-a51ef5740f5a

      1. Observer*

        If Niko has an issue – ADHD, GAD, whatever it may be – that is his problem. He’s not performing, he’s not shown any awareness that he needs to perform and he’s not shown any evidence that he’s trying to fix the problems (that he doesn’t acknowledge exist).

        It would be utterly inappropriate for the OP’s husband to try to manage Niko with the assumption that he is neurodivergent in any way or has any sort of mental health diagnosis. In fact, doing so could create some significant problems.

        If Niko is in fact neurodivergent in some way it is TOTALLY on him to approach Hubby / Manager / HR and say “I have an issue and this is what I need so that I can perform as I need to. I am working with a care team to mitigate it on my end, as well.” Now, technically he doesn’t need to say the latter, but given how bad things have gotten, he’s going to need to show that he is acting in good faith.

    10. Choggy*

      Doing the same thing and expecting different results…never works. Being a nice guy doesn’t give Nikko license to be a screw up.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Ask your hubby if being nice will help him keep his own job?

      Pretty much this guy’s work has your husband’s name or endorsement all over it. Is this work your husband wants his name tied to?

      You can point out in his overboard effort to be “fair’ with Nikko, he is being UNfair to the rest of his team. Nikko is tying up time and resources that could have been used to do actual work.

      Another thing you can ask, is “How much longer are you willing to do this? Do you wanna go another three years of this?”

      Meanwhile, your husband is charged with making decisions for he company. Your husband’s boss could decide that your husband does not make decisions in the best interest of the company, as he would prefer to make decisions in Nikko’s best interest.

      Sadly this isn’t even in Nikko’s best interest. If your husband quits next week, the new boss will probably just fire Nikko and Nikko will be totally blindsided by it. If your hubby starts a PIP, Nikko can chose to quietly look for work elsewhere.

  28. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    I work for a Fortune 200 company. A little less than a year ago, our senior leadership created a new position of Director of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion, and hired a fantastic person for the role. This was announced with a lot of fanfare. She hit the ground running and created diversity initiatives and employee resource groups centered around different equity topics including things like payscale data. The work was clearly really hard, and she got some pushback, but it seemed like she had leadership buy-in and things were really starting to look promising. My own role is not particularly senior, but part of my responsibility is creating cultural competency training (including things like training on implicit bias and other issues highly relevant to DE&I). So somewhat naturally, I became closely involved with the new DE&I director’s work, and she promoted my work which went from me creating training for one subsidiary of the company to creating training for the entire 10,000+ employees across the enterprise. I’m really personally invested in DE&I and I was feeling really hopeful that we would see some real change as a result of this new Director. 
    Well…then my company made an acquisition of a smaller (500 person) company, and as part of the acquisition a new VP of HR was created, and now DE&I would fall under his purview. The amazing Director, who has only been in her role 10 months, has now been sidelined into a customer experience position, having little to do with her DE&I expertise. I really wanted to give this new VP the benefit of the doubt, but a few weeks in, it is clear he is totally out of his depth when it comes to DE&I. He wants to make DE&I “fun” by focusing on “edu-tainment” and “fandom” like lunch-and-learns where you learn new recipes for unfamiliar cultural foods or cocktails from different regions of the world. This is not DE&I. This is window dressing. In addition the VP has repeated talked about how DE&I is important but we have to remember to focus on our day jobs. The employee resource groups are technically still in existence, but completely without power. They have no access to company demographic data, for example, let alone payscale data. I’ve been in several meetings with the new VP and I (and many others) have voiced our concerns, but he does not appear to be listening at all. Other than “this sucks” I’m at a loss as to what to do. I’m thinking next steps are to write a letter from the different workgroups to the Chief HR officer, but of course I’m concerned that this could backfire badly, and the workgroups who care about DE&I will be disbanded. Any advice on how to proceed?
    If it matters, the original director of DE&I is a cis Black woman, the new VP is a cis Black man. I am a cis white queer woman.

    1. LizB*

      What does the original DE&I director think about the changes? I assume she’s not thrilled about them, but are her plans more along the lines of trying to make change or trying to get out as fast as possible or just keeping her head down and being quietly disappointed? I know you say you’re not particularly senior, but you’ve worked with her before, so I think approaching her (maybe thorough non-work or non-written channels), expressing your dismay at how things have changed, and asking if she wants any support from you/running your idea by her would be a good first step.

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        Oh, we’ve definitely talked about it. She actually called me yesterday after a particularly excruciating meeting with the new VP and we chatted for over an hour. She’s been actively attempting to hand off all of her responsibilities to the new VP and has done her best to make the transition smooth and get the new VP up to speed on the ongoing initiatives she began. However, she’s decided that after today, she is going to step back completely. She knows what a disaster the new VP is, and is dismayed by it, but feels that she can’t continue to hold his hand, especially because she really doesn’t want to have her own reputation tarnished by the new VP’s strategic direction (of not doing anything meaningful). And of course she has a totally new job to do. She’s the one who suggested that we go over the VP’s head to our Chief of HR, and to do so soon before the existing DE&I structures are completely dismantled. I just worry that’s a very risky proposition.

        1. Observer*

          What’s your alternative? Is a toothless window dressing group better than no group? Other than disbanding these groups, what other harm are you concerned about?

          It sounds like your new VP of HR has pretty much blown up the entire DEI effort of the company. All that’s left is the window dressing. To me it seems like a good idea to get rid of that window dressing, so that it’s harder for New VP to hide behind it.

          1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

            I agree. But the current workgroups are made up of people who know the work and are fighting for it. If the workgroups are disbanded I’m sure they’d be replaced by people who thought the window dressing is a good idea. The risk is that it becomes *more* toothless.

        2. LizB*

          I’m glad you’re discussing it! Acknowledging that I don’t know your workplace, I think I’d be inclined to try out her suggestion. Having toothless workgroups is potentially even worse than having no workgroups, because the company can brag about valuing DE&I without doing any of the actual work. It seems like one attempt at getting through to the Chief of HR would be worthwhile, along the lines of: “We were really heartened by the great DE&I work the company did after Director came onboard, but it seems like a lot of that work has been dismantled since the merger. If we’re actually committed to this work, then X Y and Z initiatives should be kept in place, and it seems like VP isn’t planning to maintain them. When we’ve discussed it with him, he’s said blah blah blah…” Just laying out the facts. It would be very weird if the response was to disband the remaining workgroups, but it would also give you your answer about whether your company is actually committed to this work in a meaningful way.

          1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

            Yes, but I worry that if they disband the workgroups of folks who understand the work, they’ll certainly be replaced by a more toothless version made up of people who don’t actually know the work that should be done. A lot of the work was only in its infancy, so there’s not a full workplan in place that we can point to disappearing, just a very different understanding of what makes up DE&I work. I think the reality is that my company is NOT committed to this work in a meaningful way at least at the leadership level. But there are lots of people like me at the company who are committed to it and want to put pressure on the company’s leadership to follow through on their initial promise.

            1. LizB*

              Then maybe an interim step would be for the workgroups to come up with some concrete plans/proposals, bring them to the VP, and then go above his head if he brushes them off?

        3. Mr. Shark*

          Who was the DE&I director’s previous manager? Is she still around and does she have any power to affect some change? I would go to her if she is still part of the structure, because she conceivably hired the DE&I director previously and bought into her vision for the company before the new VP came on board.
          Otherwise, yes, I think it’s worthwhile to go to the Chief of HR and maybe frame it as not necessarily that the new VP is bad, bad, but that the structures are not being supported and it’s frustrating since she was hired to do those structures and you were supporting them in your work.

  29. Jascha*

    Can I get a reality check on whether my work environment is good, normal, or toxic? I am in so deep that I absolutely cannot tell anymore and could really use outside input. Here are some highlights:

    – company is small (~100 employees distributed across several countries)
    – fewer hours in our work week than industry standard (but we are salaried and expected to work as many additional hours as needed to complete our work, so nobody actually uses this “benefit” and most of us work extended hours)
    – pay is industry standard (apparently, but employees generally “feel” underpaid and regularly leave for higher-paid positions in related, though not identical, industries)
    – hybrid working arrangement, with all employees in office a minimum of two days per week (more if desired); however, employees do not choose which days are in-office versus home-working
    – start and end times have approximately one hour of flexibility
    – provides basic health insurance to US employees and “wellness benefits” to employees in countries that have universal health care systems
    – company expresses interest in mental health, diversity, inclusion, etc., but actual delivery is minimal (e.g., not appropriately addressing employee mental health concerns when raised, unhelpful when existing employees need diversity support such as disability services or religious accommodations, refusal to allow preferred names or pronouns in employee profiles or email signatures)
    – company preferentially hires at entry level and seeks to progress employees internally
    – company has high turnover due to employee dissatisfaction, but also earnestly tries to identify gaps in staffing and hire to fill those gaps
    – when employees leave, exit interviews are conducted solo by HR manager (no witnesses or recordings); only record of these interviews is HR manager’s notes, which are not cross-checked

    Some good, some bad, some neutral. What’s your general impression of the overall picture here? I need to know if I should be happy, GETTING OUT, or somewhere in between. Thanks!

    1. Colette*

      This seems somewhat average (maybe a little below) to me, but the details matter. (Things like: How many additional hours on average? How’s the insurance? What’s it like to work there? How is your manager? Do you feel like you’re doing useful work? Are you gaining skills that help you move your career in a direction you’re interested in?)

      1. Jascha*

        Thank you for answering! Additional hours range from 5 to 25 in a week, usually reasonable (like a few hours after the usual end of the workday or an early start), but sometimes very long days (12+ hours) or very late evenings without a choice. Really, the most egregious part of this is that they tout the shorter hours as a massive work-life benefit for the company, but then make it impossible to use that benefit and think it’s funny that anyone would expect to.

        The insurance in the US is basic, but I’m not a US-based employee, so don’t have all the details. In our non-US countries, our “additional benefits” are essentially useless.

        Most of the time, colleagues are great and work has a good division between interesting and boring. One or two very high-level people at the company make life very hard for the rest of us, but when they can be ignored, it’s not so bad.

        My manager (who also manages multiple colleagues) is friendly and relatively effective when needed; however, gets extremely defensive anytime anyone questions a company decision or points out that something isn’t quite right or doesn’t meet the needs of the employees. Wants to be perceived as someone who has employees’ backs, but wouldn’t actually do so in practice.

    2. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

      This seems like a lot of really common problems, but that doesn’t make the problems okay. It doesn’t seem to rise to the level of toxic, though, at least from your description.
      HOWEVER, the job does NOT need to be “toxic” to justify you leaving. (And deciding you “should” be happy won’t magically make you feel happy, either.) You can simply decide it’s not a good fit and look for something that would be better for you.

      1. Jascha*

        Fair enough! This is exactly the kind of reality check I need, so thank you. Depending on how management have behaved, some days I look at my job and think that I’m pretty lucky; other days, I can’t understand how the company has survived with their attitudes and policies. You see why it’s hard to gain perspective from inside!

        1. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

          Which is why you should look! Looking does not commit you to leaving, and it will give you a better perspective about what your options are.

          1. Jascha*

            Thanks for the advice! Casual market searches indicate that we could absolutely be paid more, but it can often be hard to get information on benefits or gauge company culture from that sort of thing. I guess the next step is to get deeper into looking and try to get a few interviews so I can explore what other companies are actually like in those respects.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          This is not that hard because if you think of it as yo-yoing, good/up and bad/down, then it’s easier to see that there has to be something out there better for you. Work as well as life should not involve a lot of roller-coastering where it can be prevented.

          Going the opposite way, we read stories here of people how actually LOVE their jobs and yet they leave anyway. The job does not have to be horrible in order to move on.

          What are your short term life goals? Longer term life goals? Does this job fit in with you meeting these goals? I found that once I started figuring how a job fit into my overall “life plan”, I made different and stronger choices. (And life plan can be something like what you would like to accomplish in the 5-7 years.)

          Think of yourself at this job 5 or 10 years from now. Is Future You sorry you stayed?

    3. Taura*

      Neutral to bad, imo. I don’t think it necessarily rises to the level of GET OUT, unless maybe you’re in one of the groups that’s not getting the mental health/diversity/etc support you’d prefer (and if you’re not getting the support you NEED, that pushes it more toward get out). It sounds like the kind of place where you wouldn’t be best pleased by spending the rest of your career there, but it’s good enough to stay while you have a leisurely job search for something way better.

      1. Jascha*

        Thank you! All reality checks and perspectives are appreciated. I am in the somewhat more affected side of things, but I also want to make sure that I’m not being skewed too negatively by that – hence consulting others for outside opinions!

    4. Little Lobster*

      It doesn’t really matter if we think this is normal or bad or toxic. If you don’t like it, you should job search. You can quit a job for any reason! It doesn’t hurt to see what’s out there.

      1. Jascha*

        Definitely! I just don’t want to shoot myself in the foot if this is all stuff that’s pretty common everywhere. I have been in the corporate world for less than a decade (though working longer than that) and most of that time has been spent at one company, so I don’t have a lot of mental checks and balances.

        1. Paris Geller*

          I think it’s safe to say these issues are by no means universal! Common? . . I mean, yes, the issues you currently have are more common than I think most of us would like, but you’re not guaranteed to have them in your next job. I think if you’re not happy it’s a good time to ramp up a job search and really hone in on any future interviews to make sure (as much as one can) that you end up in a healthy place.

    5. Nicki Name*

      I’m not sure what the good parts are supposed to be? Nobody gets to use the fewer hours benefit, and all the eagerness in the world isn’t going to make up for high turnover.

      The main red flags are (1) the high turnover and (2) preferring to hire entry-level people. (2) probably means the company kn0ws it has a culture that’s hard to adjust to and it’s trying to get people who won’t notice how out of whack it is. (I’ve worked at a place like that.)

      As other commenters say, this doesn’t rise to the level of “run, it’s full of bees”, but you can probably find a better place.

      1. Jascha*

        Thanks – really useful perspective! I know that the high turnover is due to employee dissatisfaction (mostly with pay and culture), but I think the desire to hire entry-level people has two motivations: 1) a minor motivation: allowing people to progress internally, and 2) a major motivation: they can be had cheaply.

    6. Dittany*

      I don’t see any huge red flags, but that’s not really the issue. The question is: Are *you* happy there? Do the negatives outweigh the positives *for you*? A workplace doesn’t have to be objectively hellish for you to be allowed to leave.

      1. Jascha*

        Understood! And I think the truth is that I’m happy with some aspects, but possibly not enough to stay. Another reason for this reality check request is that I want to know how to approach leaving if I do – are these things I should bring up in an exit interview or are they pretty normal in the corporate world? So it’s really helpful to know that most people think these aren’t great, but aren’t terrible either.

        (I’ve been thinking that, if I do leave, I’ll decline the standard exit interview with no witnesses and request a conversation with my actual manager instead.)

    7. mreasy*

      Hello, this seems very bad to me, particularly around unwillingness to support trans, disabled, , or religious employees or those with mental health issues.

      1. Jascha*

        Yes – those parts bother me as well, but the company doesn’t seem to perceive that they’re not doing enough. I’d love to give some specific examples, but I’m afraid many of the worst ones are likely to be identifying. Think things like “we accommodate those with mobility problems because one of the buildings on site has an accessible restroom” and “we support mental health because we have a peer counsellor, but we don’t think actual work accommodations are necessary for mental health conditions.”

    9. mister potatohead*

      The description sounds fine to me but if you’re unhappy, get out. Who cares what it sounds like to me? If you have reservations, listen to your gut.

    10. RagingADHD*

      The issue I see in terms of looking for a better job would be that the stuff that’s easy for a candidate to see is pretty average or sounds good, and the not-so-good parts are hard to identify in a job hunt because they are the insider view.

      You’d need to look at a lot of employee reviews and work your network to get that same view as a candidate. And even with those, it can be hard to assess how accurate or relevant the person’s view is, unless you know them well.

      You can probably do better, but it’s going to take a good amount of homework to suss out whether a place is better or not.

    11. Quinalla*

      I would say slightly bad and I would encourage you to job search, but I think you can certainly afford to be choosy.

  30. Sandrilene fa Toren*

    Job hunt prep advice? We’ll be moving back to our home state on the west coast when my husband finishes his PhD in the spring (yay!) and I’m already itching to get going on the job hunt. What can I do now to help lay the groundwork for my own job search, since where we move specifically will be reliant on my husband’s job offers? I know I can’t directly apply to anything yet, but my planner nature is in overdrive.

    1. L. Ron Jeremy*

      Start searching for west Coast jobs now and seeing what the market is like for your skillset. You may also want to write several cover letters for the various markets you want to apply to as templates.

      1. Floating Shift*

        I second this — get your base resume and a base cover letter ready, so you can go in and quickly customize as needed. I have sometimes been in the bad habit of not updating my resume and then when I’ve seen something I want to apply for, spend too much time just updating it. Also, definitely see what’s out there now. Even if you can’t apply yet, it will give you an idea of positions/locations/etc. Good luck!!

  31. Anon Here Again*

    Is there anything to do or say if your boss gets snippy and/or raises his voice at you? I can tell that he’s irritated, but sometimes I’m just asking a question and he’s ready to bite my head off. I ask if it’s a good time or if I should come back, but besides that, I don’t know what to say or do. Boss is known for having a temper, but he seems nicer to managers and people that he likes. He’s always been this way with me though, since I’ve started in the position 3 years ago. He also acts like this with the admin assistant- he’s said some nasty things to her, I don’t know why she’s stayed so long.

    1. Little Lobster*

      Take the “gray rock” approach. Don’t react in any way to the yelling. Tell him you’ll come back when it’s a better time. Don’t ask; just leave. You can’t change him, he’ll be like this forever. The only way to make this stop is to leave this job.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Gray rocking, I agree.
        One thing I did in a workplace where everyone could be snippy from time to time was to remove the emotion from their comments and look at what was said. Did they answer the question as asked? Most of the times they had actually answered me, but it was the tone of voice that got me.

        Let’s say I asked, “have you seen X?” and I get the reply, “IT’S OVER THERRRE!!!”
        What I would do is make extra sure I did not change my own tone of voice- “Oh great! thank you!” And I’d walk away pretending not to even notice the anger.
        I honestly think that some of them got tired of me NOT reacting to their pissy-ness and after a bit I found I was dealing with less and less tone of voice issues.

        I believe that one way to get out of these situations is to show one heck of a work ethic. Be very work focused. It kind of scares these people into submission if the see you rocking the job day in and day out.
        Sorry, not an instant fix. It takes time.

        You may want to consider that this is not a healthy environment to be in.

    2. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      “You seem upset. Would you like to pause now and continue the discussion about Customer XYZ later?”

      1. mister potatohead*

        “It seems like now might not be a good time” will go down better than “you seem upset”. The former is neutral; the latter is a value judgment/opinion on a person’s emotional state and if you don’t want to get yelled at (“I’M NOT UPSET! WHY WOULD YOU THINK I’M UPSET?” or “OF COURSE I’M UPSET, COME IN HERE AND LET ME RANT AT YIOU FOR 20 MINUTES ABOUT WHY!”) go with the value-neutral proposition.

        1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

          I think observing that they seem upset is a lever for them to take a step back and pull their sh!t together; they may not realize how they are being perceived. Of course YMMV.

    3. Mr. Shark*

      Well, I don’t know if this will work in this instance. But I have had people who would get snippy or aggravated, and I once went back at them saying, “We are both trying to achieve the same thing here, there’s no need to get upset.”
      I think it startled the person I was talking to, but also raised his respect of me because I didn’t just sit there and take it.
      Of course, depending on this person, that type of statement could make it worse. But that approach has definitely led me to better working relationships with people who try to bully their way through work.

  32. H*

    So I have a phone interview today for a job I am excited about at an org I am excited about but several things have come up in the last 24 hours that don’t sit well with me and I just need to vent somewhere:

    I applied for a Director position with this org a few months ago and thought I was a great fit for that role. I definitely thought it would be competitive with a lot of interest so I wasn’t suprised when I got an email saying they had a lot of interest and I wasn’t being considered BUT they like my resume and wanted me to apply for upcoming openings (nonprofit with new funding to have staff and pay is actually decent and I really believe in the mission). I work in health care now.

    I applied for a new opening when I was alerted a few months later. The position reports to the Director role I previously applied to and has similar responsibilities. The pay being offered is my current salary exactly. I am really excited about the mission and work of this org. I get contacted this week about a phone interview. It has been a month since I submitted my resume. It is initially a Board member and another person on the email (I assumed another Board member) but then I realize (after doing a LinkedIn stalk) that this person is the Director they just hired. They are doing my phone interview.

    The person they hired as the Director (they said it was competitive)….. is getting their BA in 2023 from an online University and has worked in nonprofits in various roles for about the same amount of time as I have. I have a Master’s in my field as well as a special certification and license and have worked in nonprofits and health care and graduated for 2 different state universities…. Outreach and comms is also a part of this role and this person has 20 LinkedIn connections and I have hundreds… guess I am just shocked and wondering if this is a red flag or if I am being a supersob here.

    1. Colette*

      I think you’re overvaluing education, when in many cases, it’s almost irrelevant to the job. The LinkedIn connections are also probably irrelevant, unless the outreach is via Linked In.

      But they’re allowed to hire whoever they want to hire.

      1. DC*

        Agreed. Personal LinkedIn connections are, frankly, irrelevant to outreach and comms roles compared to actual experience with business accounts.

        I also think you are overvaluing education, and if you do truly want this role, need to make sure these feelings and this attitude towards the Director don’t show.

        1. H*

          Just for some context (though you might be right). I don’t have a random Master’s degree in something intangible. I have one in a field that often also requires state licensing for many of the roles and jobs we are hired into however the degree is versatile enough that many people with this Master’s aren’t always doing clincal work.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      It sounds like whatever impressed them about the person they hired as Director isn’t obvious from their LinkedIn profile. I understand your initial reaction, though. I’ve run into this myself, finding out that someone hired for a high-level role I applied to and wasn’t even interviewed for has a lower-level degree and less direct experience (per their LinkedIn profile). I would have thought based on the description of this specific role that they’d prefer someone with my kind of credentials, but I only had the job description and the chosen candidate’s limited-info profile to go on. Ultimately, all I know was that this person had something the company valued over what (they perceived) I had to offer.

      If this job sounds really good to you (and it seems like it does), I’d just see what the new Director has to say. It might become clear that the Director needs to lean heavily on this role (probably not great if you’d be shoring up a big lack of skills the Director should have) or the Director needs to focus on the other major elements of the role that play to their strengths, leaving some pieces of it to this position (better in terms of growing the role to your own strengths). Good luck!

    3. PT*

      I worked for a nonprofit that had a deal with three online universities to issue degrees aligned with the internal employee training system, so I am going to disagree with the consensus and say that the degree is a pretty big red flag. Unfortunately my experience was that the managers who got those degrees instead of traditional ones were missing a lot of basic information. It meant that their entire educational and career experience had been within the same organization, and therefore they had a ton of blind spots and lack of perspective as to how things operate in outside organizations, and how things could possibly be done differently.

      Additionally, and unfortunately, it was a career and degree path that was most frequently taken by people who had failed upwards. People who took a part-time gig as a young person and somehow found themselves running the show five years later because they were the only employee left when the whole rest of the staff walked out for better jobs, which was not an option for them. They were steeped in the dysfunction of the organization, and were not at all willing to work to build a functional workplace.

  33. DC*

    Both jobs from a few weeks ago that said they wanted to hire me but for a different role have sine rejected me for the original role (expected) and gone radio silent. So I’m back to the drawing board, and applying to as many things as my network can send me.

    In the meantime, I’m still taking freelance contracts. Any advice from fellow freelancers out there for how to market yourself when you can do a number of different things for people? What to call yourself? How to set rates?

    Just trying to stay afloat…

  34. HobBoglin*

    Not really a question, more like a complaint & a question. My colleagues are all doing 75 Hard as a team building exercise and some of our team can’t or shouldn’t participate. I just don’t want to. 1: I hate “habit hacks” in general and especially as team building and this one is by far the worst. 2: The department head hinted that it could reflect negatively on performance reviews. We don’t have HR, we have peer mediators (nightmare). Ideas?

    1. BlueBelle*

      I think this would be a great question to submit to Alison. There are so many red flags here, I would love to hear her advice on this. 75 hard can say it isn’t a diet program but it is. There are countless articles about it, and it shouldn’t be done at work!

    2. cubone*

      God I would probably write a 10 page diatribe of my disgust with this “team building exercise”. Or you could do a simple: “Hi, unfortunately I won’t be able to participate, as several parts of the program conflict with the recommendations of my medical team”. Or just wait for Alison’s great advice, because WOW this is bad bad bad.

        2. cubone*

          it’s SO egregious to tell people how to manage their food and movement (!!!!!) as a part of your JOB. My god. My heart breaks for, well everyone, but especially anyone there with any type of medical issue, disability, eating disorder experience, etc. What a nightmare.

        3. comityoferrors*

          The site I found about it stresses, in huge letters, that “THIS IS NOT A FITNESS PROGRAM” which is nicely contradicted by the disclaimer at the top of the page saying “You should consult your physician or other health care professional before starting 75 HARD™ or any other fitness program.”

          Lordy. I’d love to see Alison’s full answer to this.

          1. pancakes*

            Yeah, I’d never heard of it and just skimmed an article about it in Men’s Health. The guy who created it “is not a certified trainer, dietitian, or licensed clinical therapist,” and they didn’t have anything positive to say about it.

        4. Elizabeth West*

          *googles it too*
          What person who works has 90 minutes a day to exercise? *jumps on the Nope train to IDontThinkSo Town*

    3. Nicki Name*

      I just had to look up 75 Hard, and wow yikes what is this even doing in a workplace. Start polishing up your resume!

    4. Purple Cat*

      What in the world?
      I had never heard of this and looked it up, the “highlights” for those who are wondering:
      The critical tasks are as follows:

      Follow any nutrition plan designed for your goals, with zero alcohol and no cheat meals.
      Complete two 45-minute workouts every day, one of which must be outside.
      Drink a gallon of water every day.
      Read 10 pages of an educational or self-improvement book every day.
      Take a progress picture every day.

      None of this is work-related so why on earth should it be reflected in your performance reviews??

      1. Enough*

        A gallon of water? Half of that is the standard. Too much can cause all sorts of problems. And how does a working person have 90 minutes every day to work out? Especially with family responsibilities let alone with other interests.

        1. ThatGirl*

          I do not have enough time in my day to work out for 90 minutes AND drink a gallon of water; I’d be in the bathroom every 45 minutes!

        2. Not So NewReader*

          OMG- drink a gallon of water??!
          NO WAY!

          And this coming from the person who promotes drinking water and staying hydrated. No do not do this.
          I drink just over two quarts every day (appropriate for my body size and weight). If I drank a gallon of water there would be puddles on the floor. My kidneys would not hack this.

          What was that story about a talk show host who told people to drink a lot of water and a woman died?
          Oh crap. No. Just no.

        3. Clisby*

          Also, even with the half-gallon standard, the sites I’ve seen remind you that water doesn’t just come from the tap/bottle. Coffee, milk, beer, wine, fruit juice are all mostly water. Many foods contain water. (I feel pretty sure drinking 64 oz. of plain water isn’t likely to hurt anybody, but depending on what else you’re eating or drinking, it’s not strictly necessary.)

      2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        Follow any nutrition plan designed for your goals, with zero alcohol and no cheat meals.
        Complete two 45-minute workouts every day, one of which must be outside.
        Drink a gallon of water every day.
        Read 10 pages of an educational or self-improvement book every day.
        Take a progress picture every day.

        Try to impose that on me and it’s a drinking game by sundown.

        1. the cat's ass*

          my response would be “go f&ck yourself with a tuba, sideways.” In Japanese. That’s massively intrusive. Kinda like the tuba!

      3. cubone*

        I know this isn’t the point to debate the efficacy of this program (since what matters is its wildly inappropriate use in a work setting), but can I also just say this sounds so … shame-y? And aggressive? Like if that’s what you want, fine, but I can’t imagine how damaging this would be on my self-worth and mental health. It just sounds like… “be a perfect, robotic human and make no mistakes”. Cool!

      4. RagingADHD*

        The closest one to a work-related thing would be reading. Some companies give time and budget for self-directed skills training or educational goals, so that one isn’t too egregious.

        But that’s 1/5.

      5. tangerineRose*

        Ask them if you can do all of this on company time. And a gallon of water sounds like too much.

        1. RagingADHD*

          If you’re a tall, large framed person working out very hard for 90 minutes a day in the heat, it might be reasonable. But in that case you’d probably be better off with some electrolytes in there.

      6. A Wall*

        I’m under doctor’s orders to drink way more water than normal and I still don’t get anywhere near a gallon of water a day.

    5. CatMintCat*

      The minute somebody starts dictating what I can read, I nope right out of there. High school scars run very deep.

  35. Eldritch Office Worker*

    I posted last week that I was bored and waiting for my job to pick up.

    Haaaaaa the universe heard me. Careful what you wish for! If you need me I’ll be mainlining coffee.

  36. Philly Redhead*

    I applied for a staff position (graphic designer) at a university. I had to list three references in my initial application, so I listed my previous manager, my current manager, and a co-worker who also acts as our team’s project manager. I didn’t list other previous managers, because those were production (not design) positions.

    I just had a third-round interview with the university, and they’re going to make a decision soon. Is it typical that they’ll let me know before they contact my reference? Or should I pro-actively reach out and ask them to let me know so I can give my current manager a heads’-up?

    1. Alex*

      You should reach out definitely. They might assume you have already given your manager a heads up and not notify you.

    2. ferrina*

      Yes, reach out and let folks know. I assume you already talked to them before you gave the reference list (as a general “I’m job searching, will you be my reference”, not necessarily for this position). Just give them a head’s up that this position is looking promising, you’re excited because they offer XYZ that you are looking for, and they may be contacting the references.

      Employers sometimes let you know before they reach out, but often don’t.

    3. Brick*

      I work on the administrative side of universities, and I have usually (but not always) been told in advance that they were reaching out to references. But if you’re at a third round interview, I imagine there’s a decent chance they’ll call your references, whether they warn you or not. I would probably go ahead and give the references a heads up, assuming they already know you’re interviewing. If this would require you to break the news to your current boss/coworker and you don’t want to do that unnecessarily, I might touch base with the hiring manager and ask if you should be giving your references a nudge. Good luck!

  37. Helenteds*

    What do you do with overly generalized application forms that have sections asking about relevant volunteering and also about relevant hobbies, activities, or educational experiences, but also ask for a resume and cover letter? I should add that these are mandatory sections on the form. I am a undergraduate applying for an internship, and I don’t have any real work experience, so my resume basically consists of relevant volunteer experience. I tried listing the most relevant volunteering in that section, though that is also listed on the resume I am going to submit (I haven’t submitted the form yet, still working on a cover letter).
    Also, it asks where you went to high school and Diploma? with yes or no options. However, I was homeschooled and hence don’t have an actual diploma. I listed Homeschool as my high school and checked yes for diploma as I do have sufficient documentation of my education for several colleges to accept me (they include University of Michigan for example, which doesn’t accept anybody who applies). I am also listing my current college attendance so this should hopefully be clear. I don’t want to be dishonest but I worry that the application system might auto reject someone if it seems they don’t have a high school degree.

    1. ferrina*

      If you’re running into these applications a lot, I’d keep a document with easy cut/paste answers. I started that after filling out my high school’s address for the fifth time (when I was already over a decade out of high school).

      Good question about the home school. I’d do the same thing that you’re doing- write Home School for the name, and yes for the diploma. If the program your parents used (customized or not) was to a rigor consistent with the state’s educational standards, then you effectively have graduated high school and all course requirements, though your high school format wasn’t what they were thinking of. You’re right that a lot of these systems are set to auto-reject if you say no to a diploma.
      If you’re worried about it, explain the situation in your cover letter.

  38. CraftingOwl*

    My workplace’s COVID rules allow people to take off their masks at their desks. I do this because I trust that the people who set the policy know what they are doing. (I won’t go into details but that really is a fair assumption — this is not just “Bob the CEO set policies because he’s the CEO” — there are health experts involved. And we have access)
    Some of my colleagues are unhappy that I’m following the policy and want me to wear a mask in our shared office all the time. But that’s not required.
    More context: I still wear a mask where it’s required (in conference rooms and walking around). I am vaccinated, and pretty much all the other employees are too. Our county has a mask mandate and “substantial transmission” but our workplace is doing a lot better than the county as a whole.
    I don’t want to wear a mask at my desk but I also want to have a good relationship with the colleagues who are upset.

    1. Colette*

      Which do you want more, to not wear a mask or to have a good relationship with your coworkers?

      Personally, I’m on your coworkers’ side; I don’t want to be around a bunch of unmasked people, even if they’re vaccinated – and if I am around unmasked people, I want to choose those people, not have them be random coworkers.

      1. ferrina*

        This. I’m the coworker who would really like my colleagues to mask up, even if they are at their desk. I live with family members who aren’t able to get the vaccine and I am extra cautious for their sake. I definitely appreciate the extra effort that colleagues give.

      2. tangerineRose*

        Neither vaccination nor masks will keep you absolutely safe, but using both improves your odds. In live, I like to improve my odds when I can. For example, a seatbelt might not be all that “comfy”, but I always wear one in the car.

    2. Reba*

      Honestly, I would wear the mask unless it’s truly, physically making you suffer. And if it is, talk to the coworkers about it so they know (or I guess, IM them or something!).

      A lot of mask discomfort can be mitigated. To me it would be well worth it to make coworkers more comfortable with being around me/being in the office. If you stand on principle on this one (and the principle is just “I don’t have to, you can’t make me”) I think it will cost you a lot.

    3. kicking_k*

      Hmmm. Different roles here, but I am still wearing a mask in communal areas and if I’m in a space with someone and cannot feasibly be more than 2 metres away with ventilation. I have a non-shared office though so it’s not all day.

    4. Dark Macadamia*

      I’m not a health expert but this policy doesn’t make sense to me unless everyone has private offices. You need a mask to walk down the hall but not for prolonged periods in a shared space? If I were your coworker this would negatively and permanently affect my opinion of you, but I wouldn’t say anything (because I’d be minimizing my interactions with you as much as possible, while wearing my mask).

    5. The New Wanderer*

      If I didn’t have colleagues who were asking people to stay masked even at their desks, I would take off my mask while at my desk. For context, ours were set up with every other desk blocked off to enhance distancing so it was at least 12 feet to the next seated person, and people were very good about donning masks whenever they had to leave their desks if they weren’t already wearing the masks.

      However, if I knew it was upsetting people, even if I didn’t agree with their risk assessment? I’d keep the mask on. They’re asking you (and everyone else) to do more because they’re clearly still uncomfortable with the required precautions. It’s a small price to pay to give others peace of mind.

    6. Purple Cat*

      How do you define the “shared office”?
      My company has an open floor plan, and when sitting at our cubes we are ~6ft from other people at their desks, so we don’t need to wear masks at our desk. If we’re in a conference room, however, we need to have our masks on.
      So when you say “shared office” – is this a small office that sits 3(ish) people – aka more like a conference room? Then “yes” I think you should defer to your coworkers feelings. If it’s a large office space then you have more standing to push back.

    7. A Teacher*

      Just because the rules technically allow you to do something doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.

      Wear the mask. Your colleagues will feel much safer around you. I teach teenagers six hours a day in a mask. You can manage.

    8. RagingADHD*

      I think this is one of those situations where both of the things you want are fine, but you probably just can’t have them both. I think under the circumstances you’re fine to follow the policy on principle, but it will likely cost you goodwill.

      How close proximity are you to the colleagues who are bothered? Could you put it on when they’re nearby and take a break when they’re away from their desk, or something?

    9. SofiaDeo*

      A cloth surgical type mask, that primarily prevents YOU from potentially infecting others (as opposed to the N95 type, which protects the wearer more) with head tie straps is much more comfortable to wear than the ear loop disposable type. I got a few different cute ones with pockets for removable inserts on Etsy. Even wearing one without a viral quality insert will protect surfaces and others from larger respiratory droplets. Perhaps this is a good compromise. Because unfortunately, this particular virus has asymptomatic transmission for an extended time period, compared to other common respiratory illnesses. With more people using monoclonal antibody treatment for things such as psoriasis and eczema, there is an increasing number of the population who is immune compromised without having traditional “cancer type” diagnoses. They don’t “look sick” like cancer patients often do. Not to mention if coworkers have kids or other at-risk family members.
      If one has trouble breathing due to COPD or other respiratory issues, then the rule “we can take off the mask at our desk” allows for that subset to remove a mask without a lot of fuss. But if you aren’t one of that subset, wearing one is definitely more “considerate of others”. Especially in a shared or open office; you aren’t in a room by yourself. I say this as a healthcare professional with a background in infectious disease. I will also comment that after a while you get used to the mask; initial discomfort generally goes away. So please consider finding a comfortable one that will make everyone happy.

    10. Mr. Shark*

      Ultimately I think it does come down to whether you want to keep things peaceful and have a good relationship with those people or value your comfort over that.
      I’m in an office in which if you are in an office with other vaccinated people, you are allowed to not wear a mask. But if you are in a conference room, or walking around, or at an open desk, you have to wear a mask, even if you are maintaining 6′ distance.
      I think many of these requirements are taking the conservative approach, but obviously that’s not the case for you.
      How big is your shared office?

    11. Undine*

      You say “most” people are vaccinated. Consider that among your coworkers, there may be people with compromised immune systems, who have limited response to vaccines, people with significant comorbidities or people who live with or visit people who cannot get vaccines or cannot produce an immune response. Add to that that a vaccinated individual is likely to be a silent carrier, and you may we’ll be putting your coworkers at risk themselves, or at risk of killing someone they love. And even if you are not, they may well believe you are. Add to that the unknown risk for long Covid, which can happen from quite mild cases and where the effect of vaccines are still not well understood.

      Now, as someone who needs glasses and who cannot wear contacts, I would struggle with onsite work on the computer, since my glasses would fog up. I wouldn’t mind wearing a mask (I mean, I wouldn’t like it but I would agree the benefits outweigh the discomforts) but I would mind wearing surgical tape every day since eventually it would injure my skin. What do people do in that case?

      1. MissCoco*

        I find the KN-95 are much better with fogging than surgical style masks or fabric ones, and if I am wearing my glasses with nose pads, I don’t get much fog at all as long as I put the nose pads on top of the tape (this can create a whole new issue if you wear progressives or bifocals and need them lined up with your eyes a certain way tho).

        Some people use anti-fog products, but I haven’t used any, so I can’t vouch for them.

        If you aren’t already using paper tape, definitely switch to it, it’s far less sticky than other types. I also use the 1/2inch tape as there’s less on my skin that way. I’ve also started tapping the tape on my clothes once or twice, it takes a lot of the “stick” out.
        Getting the tape as low as possible under the eyes puts less of your most delicate skin at risk, and I sometimes remove my mask off while leaving the tape on my face till I can get home and get the tape wet to easily remove it.

      2. RagingADHD*

        I experimented with different styles of cloth masks until I found one that fits really well underneath my glasses, and the bridge of my glasses holds it down well enough to prevent most fogging, without any tape.

        Now, it helps that I sew, so the experimentation was a lot easier. Finding a great fit is much harder with standardized styles, because there are a lot of nuances to face shape!

      3. Quinalla*

        I wear glasses, you really have to get the mask under the glasses and move the glasses down the bridge of your nose a bit. My Dad (dentist) and brother (works in a pharmacy lab) have glasses and wore masks daily prior to COVID so gave me tips and I eventually got it. I mostly WFH, but sometimes am on a jobsite for hours and wear a mask with no fogging issues just fine now. Better fit masks definitely help for sure and I prefer over the head for comfort for wearing a long time.

        I tried anti-fog, did not do much for long.

      4. Tali*

        Definitely comes down to the fit of the mask. I wear a paper/disposable surgical mask whenever I’m in the office, and the quality of the nose wire really varies by brand. Some don’t fully bend or stay bent, some are so weak that if you remove the mask to drink it no longer sits well on your face. Experiment there to find one that works for you.

        For me, the key to fitting a nose wire is to fold the mask in half to create the V that goes over your nose. Then pinch it around your nose and fold each side out and away from your face. This creates a smooth surface that hugs snugly to your cheeks and sides of your nose. In my experience, the sides of the nose are where the air escapes to fog up glasses–this folding technique keeps the mask right against your face there and greatly cuts down the fogging.

    12. eisa*

      You are of course well within your rights to tell them to take a hike. (Frankly, if it were me, I probably would .. except if at least one of them had a special reason for being super-cautious _and_ WFH was impossible for them _and_ they had explained all that to me. ) ( Yes, I fully expect to be flamed in the replies. But if they want me to accommodate them, it’s on them to persuade me why.)

      Working the logistics :
      So your office consists of
      1) people who don’t (want to) mask
      2) people who mask, but are not fussed whether others do
      3) people who mask and want everyone to mask

      How many people in each group ? Are you the only one in group 1 ?
      How many offices at your company ? It is not unlikely that the same situation is going on in other rooms as well. Would it be feasible to switch it up and create “mask-mandatory” and “mask-optional” offices ?

      If you end up deciding to mask:
      For FFP2 (don’t know whether this is the term used in US), I recommend a product called “Air Queen”, very light, practically no restriction to breathing, if you push the clip smoothly, no fogging of glasses.
      Or if we are talking only about “mouth coverings” made of cloth, you can get a very lightweight one as well.

    13. Secret Bear*

      I know I’m in the minority here, but if you’re working alone at your desk, I don’t see any reason, scientific or otherwise, why it would necessary to wear a mask in that situation. I think your coworkers are being unreasonable.

      1. A Wall*

        Because that’s not how airborne transmission works. It’s not a forcefield that only exists within a small radius around you that a mask turns on and off, it’s like cigarette smoke. If you’re sitting in a shared office maskless for a period of time, your breath and whatever is being carried in it are spreading all over into all that air that whoever else comes in there is going to be breathing. It’s still there after you put on a mask later, and it’s even still there for a bit after you leave the room.

        Some viruses are worse about this than others. We’re lucky this coronavirus isn’t like, say, the measles, which you can easily contract after walking into a room that someone with measles left more than an hour before, but it does linger and it is infectious that way. If you’re trying to decide if something you’re doing is a good idea or not, consider whether you’d be getting a facefull of flavor if the person in question was smoking or using some heavily fragranced vape. That’s how much of someone’s breath you’re getting in your own respiratory tract. Droplet masks only filter so much, and they are dramatically more effective when over the mouth of the sick person in question. So there is a reason (a scientific one, even, from me, an actual health expert) why they are asking for this, and they are not wrong.

    14. A Wall*

      Wear a mask at your desk. “Health experts” supposedly being involved (and I am dubious on that claim by your employer) doesn’t change the fact that being in an enclosed space with other people, even vaccinated ones, day in and day out is a highly risky activity. If your coworkers also didn’t care then it’d be all your own choices, but if they are uncomfortable with it they are coming from an extremely reasonable position. It is just a little piece of cloth, it is not a big deal.

  39. awesome3*

    From the book The Honey Don’t List by Christina Lauren, both main characters are kind of trapped in their employment situation. For James, it’s because the only work experience he has is for a company that went under for being super corrupt. That’s the only professional work he has to list on his resume, so he can’t get calls back about jobs. This is the only job he was offered, and he has the title of engineer but performs personal assistant duties. What advice would you give to James, on how to get a job after that kind of work history?

    For Cary (it might be Carrie, I don’t recall), she’s been working as a personal assistant since she was 16, but her job functions have begun to include designing furniture (for several years). She doesn’t have any formal training in designing furniture, but as it’s her bosses’ job, she’s gotten into it and now does the bulk of that work. If she were to want another job in furniture design, not being a personal assistant, how should she go about it? She has a high school diploma as her highest degree.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’d tell Cary to ask her boss to change her job title to Assistant Designer or something along those lines, and make it retroactive. Except that would probably signal that she’s looking for work. So I might just tell her to add those duties to her resume instead. I wonder if it would be dishonest to call herself just Assistant instead of Personal Assistant?

    2. Philly Redhead*

      Not only does Carey do the bulk of the furniture design work, but her boss takes credit for it! To tell prospective employers it’s really her means they either wouldn’t believe her, or cause a scandal if word got out (which it should, but Carey might not have wanted to deal with that).

      1. awesome3*

        I won’t spoil the ending in case anyone has been wanting to read it but hasn’t yet, but yeah I think that was a big part of what kept her from being able to apply for another job, the brand is in her boss’ name, so it would be her word against a famous furniture designer’s, and would be a fatal flaw to go into that world badmouthing her, even if perceptive employers believed Cary.

    3. Is it midterms time already*

      OP I cannot lie: this sounds like you have been procrastinating a paper for a book you had to read in class and now you’re asking this group to do your homework for you.

      1. awesome3*

        I wish romance novels were assigned in class! Alas, this is just a beloved book for me, and I really wonder about what Alison et al would say to these characters, because they both are super stuck in their work situations, which is why they stay in a dysfunctional work environment.

    4. pancakes*

      I don’t think the idea that everyone who works for an infamous employer is unemployable forevermore. Look for the recent-ish post on this site that was an interview with someone who worked for Theranos. There were comments from others who’d worked there too. The title is “when the red flags are even more ominous than you know…”

      I would think someone who is very skilled in furniture design but doesn’t have credentials would put together a portfolio of their work and circulate it to the same sort of design sites that feature the boss’s work. They pretty much focus on design, not on the designers’ credentials. Or put together a portfolio and apply to design schools, if that’s what they want.

      1. pancakes*

        Sorry, skimming past this again, I see I left out the words “is realistic” at the end of the first sentence! Not sure how that happened.

  40. Family Business "Heir"?*

    My family has had a trucking/logistics business for generations. My great grandfather started the company, my grandfather continued it on, and now my dad has been running it for a long time. He is preparing for retirement and has been growing it as much as he can before selling it all in the next 3-4 years, retiring, and riding off into his glory years with my mom, hopefully still in their prime.

    I am a highly emotional, sentimental person. I can’t imagine the thought of the family business dying when my dad retires. I don’t work for him, but I work in a related industry that uses his direct services all the time. We have always talked about (both seriously and joking) me coming to work for him. I have always said I want nothing to do with what he does because I have seen how stressed he has been for my 29 years of life. However, as I come into 3 years in my current role, the thought of taking what I’ve learned from my job and what my dad has taught me about the industry to a new role is becoming more and more intriguing. I do have an ultimate career goal that has absolutely nothing to do with my current job or my dad’s business that I haven’t started working towards yet…so this would definitely derail any timeline for that in the near future.

    I am pretty sure he would still sell the business regardless of I come to work for him or not.

    What are everyone’s thoughts on working for the family business, working for your dad, etc? Any other sentimental people out there that feel me on not wanting to see the business leave the family? Thanks!

    1. ferrina*

      It sounds like you’re struggling with the sentimental vs the practical. You’ve articulated what your sentimental perspective is, but I’m unclear what your practical idea is. Are you thinking you’d want to work for him for a little while before he sells the business? It sounds like you have no interest in owning the business- or do you?

      The trick here is to honor your feelings while setting reasonable expectations for yourself and others. If you are genuinely interested in perhaps taking over the business (and giving up your other career goal), talk to your dad about what you want and discuss what his timeline looks like. If you want to just work for the business for a couple years, then go back to your primary career, that is likely doable. Again, talk to your dad, be clear about your goals and timeline. If you just are sad that the business won’t be in the family anymore, that’s okay! Is there a small item that you would cherish that would remind you of this family legacy? A sign, or such?

      If you are struggling to figure out what you want, you can also bring in a therapist to help you just talk it through. That’s what their job is for.

    2. calonkat*

      Ferrina has really good advice.

      You say you “can’t imagine the thought of the family business dying”, but you also have a career goal that is NOT the family business. If your dad wants to sell the business, are you going to get loans to buy the business and give up YOUR career goal to live the life you did not want (and your father is apparently also fine with you not having)?

      A business is not a person. I really think you should start imagining the family business either having a new owner or becoming part of another business. And consider speaking with a professional to help work through issues you may be having with this if you really can’t imagine it.

    3. Annon Trucking*

      I can’t comment about sentimental aspects of a family business. I can comment about owning a small trucking company.
      You said it yourself, the stress is unbelievable. It’s not even explainable. The traditional aspects of business ownership compounded with the unpredictability of traffic, customers, as well as shipping and receiving and employee retention. The insurance rates are crazy, because the accidents and damage are crazy. Don’t even get me started on the scam accident reporting. When my agent calls and says “good news it only went up 25%” I really don’t take it as good as they do.
      Large trucking conglomerates are buying up small companies and shorting the drivers and employees. Holdouts are being forced out with newer technology that has nothing to do with safety and every thing to do with the bottom line, even when it’s not cost effective for the customer.
      OP your dad sent you to college right? He did it for a reason, we are doing it with our children too. Trucking is scrappers business and you know that one accident, can end it all. It has been a very stressful 20 years for us and we can’t wait to get out.
      If you want some kind of behind the scenes view of business ownership then shadow your dad. If you want a tangent of his business, go be a broker or freight manager at a large company and shut your phone off when you leave. Even the brokerage stinks, from both ends, trucker or broker.
      Your dad has probably said all this and more.

    4. Fiona*

      I think you should come up with a plan to honor/mourn/celebrate the end of your family’s tradition in this business. It could be a public party, a scrapbook, a storytelling video – but I don’t think you need to carry this tradition on just for the sake of sentiment. In your own words:
      – “I have always said I want nothing to do with what he does”
      – “I have seen how stressed he has been for my 29 years of life”
      – “I do have an ultimate career goal that has absolutely nothing to do with my current job”
      – “This would derail any timeline for that”

      I’m also a VERY sentimental person so I can relate to all your feelings. But you have one life to live – it’s okay to make it your own.

    5. Anonymous Luddite*

      All I can say is: I feel your pain.

      Previous Job was for a 120-year-old company. For the first several years I was there, I could roll a ball from my desk into the office of the grandson of the guy who started the company. He passed, sons inherited, and sold the company. We were all laid off with a VERY generous severance package.

      Fast forward four years: I’m at a new job and making -significantly- more money… and I’m still a little bitter that they sold the family business.

  41. Trying to Transfer*

    Hi all, for those with more than my mere 3 years of professional experience, how do you deal with the disappointment that comes from not getting a much-desired office-and-state transfer?

    Background: my company doesn’t actually have a formal transfer process, and only a handful of people of transferred between offices in the last decade, mostly to help staff new departments. I’ve been itching to move states for a long while now, but college and first-job opportunities didn’t grant that possibility. I have a good working relationship with my coworkers in the other state, and I have a pretty strong work history here. After I worked up the courage to ask for the transfer, there was a *lot* of back and forth between the two office managers, and after 3 months I finally told there just wasn’t enough workload to justify bringing in a new person.

    My office manager already scheduled a time for this next summer to revisit transferring, but obviously in the meantime, I’m… well, I’m crushed. I really wanted this, and I really believed it was going to happen. Now I’m stuck in this state for another year, no family nearby, all my friends have moved, and I’m really struggling to not let resentment build. How do I reframe this, so I don’t accidentally sabotage my chances from disappointment?

    1. JustAClarifier*

      I would make the transfer happen by transferring myself to a new job. Granted, that’s just me! But that’s what I would do. If you’re not happy with the environment you’re in right now, and you have 3 years (which is a decent amount of time at a position) at your current job, why not find something remote or located in the state you’d prefer?

      1. Trying to Transfer*

        Because this is a *very* good company to work for, in both states! Strong benefits, good culture, lots of flexibility, and we just ranked among Top 10 Businesses to Employees in one of the states! Which, I probably should have mentioned in my post – there is a lot of opportunities here, and I know I can keep growing.

        I just don’t want to be in *this* state. And I do plan on job searching if it seems like the transfer won’t work out again. But that’s still around 6 months away, which means I need to handle my emotions in that time.

        1. JustAClarifier*

          I hear what you’re saying, but there are also many companies that could probably also fit all of those criteria that would go hand in hand with the location you’d prefer. That being said, if leaving your company isn’t an option, you need to reframe your thinking as a conscious choice or a timeline for yourself: (1) 6 months isn’t that far away in the grand scheme of things, (2) If they don’t follow through on the request for transfer, you can make a decision about whether to go or stay at that point, as well, and (3) This is a conscious decision you’re making to stay with the company, regardless of location, for the reasons you listed above. And then stick to those thoughts with that timeline.

        2. Hlao-roo*

          If you decide to stick around for 6 more months to see if the transfer works out in the summer, really lean in to the place you are now. Living far away from family and friends is not easy, I’m in a similar boat and I get that. My strategy has been:

          – Join a meetup group or two. They’re a good way to be social without the internal pressure to make “real” friends/guilt that you may befriend someone and then move away after a few months. Depending on your interests/weather/COIVD, maybe you could also look for a local rec sports league.
          – Make a “bucket list” for all the things you can only do in your current state. Tourist attractions? Cool state parks? That coffee shop downtown you’ve heard good things about but never went to? Put them all on the list and check them off.

          Try to shift your mindset from “I’m trapped here for 6 more months, far away from all the people I love :'(” to “only 6 or so more months here, gotta do all the things I can only do while I’m here before I move away forever!”

          1. Camelid coordinator*

            I really agree with this! It puts the focus somewhere else (and bonus–somewhere fun) instead of stewing about the transfer that didn’t happen. And you would have mentally committed yourself to search for a new job if the transfer doesn’t happen next round. I am sorry it didn’t work out this time.

        3. Mockingjay*

          I think part of your discontent is that you’re ready for career progression and the first time you went for it, it didn’t happen/was delayed. Businesses are pyramids; there’s not always room (staffing, budget, planning) at the next level at the same time you’re ready to try something else – transfer, promotion, etc. Doesn’t mean it won’t happen, just not right now.

          Be patient; career progression seems like a tortoise sometimes. Slow and steady. As Hlao-roo noted, spend those six months wisely. I’d add that you should apply that dedication to work. Be the best employee you can be: work consistently, ask for stretch assignments, take training. Build those credentials so you become the first person management thinks of for an opening. It will happen.

          And if it doesn’t or you decide you don’t want to wait 6 months, go ahead and search. Maybe you’ll find a well-suited job in new location or you’ll prefer current job and location. No harm in looking.

          1. Trying to Transfer*

            Yeah, actually, I think you hit on a point I’ve had trouble articulating. I’m in a weird middle ground at this point in my career – to get my next “true” promotion I need to get my professional’s license, and I can’t get that without at least 4 years experience. The workload slowdown that stopped my transfer really highlighted a lot of the stagnancy I’ve been feeling.

            Luckily, I’ve had the opportunity these last couple weeks to help out on a huge project, which required learning a new program and process. Hopefully I can stay tapped into that side of things for a bit, because while I don’t want to do it forever, it is really interesting.

    2. Colette*

      Well, you’re not stuck, because presumably your new state has other businesses you could work at. You might still choose to stay with your company, but it’s a choice, not something you’re stuck with.

  42. StressedByTravel*

    Want some thoughts on this. I just started my job on August 30th as a full time remote worker. There is an enablement/gathering event in December that the remote folks have received permission to come in person to attend. I have three comorbidities for COVID and even though I’m vaccinated with booster (Pfizer), the thought of getting on an airplane to travel to the main office really worries me. I tried to go to the mall to see a movie a few weekends ago and had a full anxiety attack from how many people there were and had to leave, and I don’t want a repeat of that on a plane. I spoke with one of the event organizers about my anxiety, and he reassured me that it’s an optional in-person event and that if I was not comfortable traveling, they’d arrange virtual accommodations for me – but he seemed disappointed. I’m wondering if I choose not to travel if I’ll be seen as a non-team player? Or I’ll be left out of future events? I’m not sure what to do.

        1. Observer*

          Less is better. Let them know that it’s a medical issue, but don’t get into “panic attack” because that’s something people don’t really understand.

          “My doctor is recommending that I don’t travel at this point” is fine.

          1. tangerineRose*

            “My doctor is recommending that I don’t travel at this point” is great! If people don’t get that, then what’s their problem?

    2. WineNot*

      Is driving to the event definitely out of the question? I am sure people want to meet you and would be bummed if you didn’t go, but if they hold COVID concerns against and judge you for it…that doesn’t sound like great people to work for!

      I will say that I have flown on a few different occasions this fall after not flying since COVID, and they were great experiences. Is it possible to try to work yourself up to a point where you’re comfortable enough to make it through the airport and flight experience by exposures to crowds that start off small and increase from there?

      1. JustAClarifier*

        The organizer I spoke with recommended that, too, but driving to the event would take 8+ hours for a single day’s gathering and that doesn’t feel worth it to me. I’m glad to hear that your flying wasn’t bad; what airlines did you take? I know some have been worse than others.

        2. WineNot*

          An 8+ hour drive for one day definitely seems like a little much to me, too. You would also be flying for one day of activities?

          I flew JetBlue both times, and am flying JetBlue again in a couple weeks. Sure, I was surrounded by people I didn’t know, but if I thought about how I felt about flying (not ready to fly at all!) at the height of the pandemic and before I was vaccinated, my experience was a thousand times better than I could have pictured back in the winter. I was honestly relieved just to get the first flight over with so I could stop thinking about what it was going to be like and if I would feel comfortable.

          1. StressedByTravel*

            Yes, they want me to fly in for just one day of activities! It seems kind of ridiculous to me. I’d have to fly in the night before, participate in the day’s activities, and then fly out again the next morning. So I’d effectively lose 3 days of travel to one day of events. Glad to hear JetBlue isn’t so bad; I’ll keep them in mind if I decide that traveling is worth it!

    3. NotMy(Fancy)RealName*

      Is it a direct flight or multi leg? I have been traveling throughout the pandemic (carefully!) and the flights themselves are generally not at all scary. Planes have great filtration and the FAs are very much enforcing masks. The terminals are where people are not being supervised enough to behave themselves, but I generally can find a space far enough away from others if I have a longish layover.
      Decent hotel chains have good cleaning protocols and mostly won’t enter your room during your stay unless you tell them you need them to.

    4. RagingADHD*

      I think your brain is creating a no-win situation for you because that’s what anxiety does.

      The organizer said it’s optional. They are providing virtual means because they DON’T expect everyone to go in person.

      Believe what he said. Why would he lie?

      1. Mr. Shark*

        Yes, he’s given the option to not attend in person. I don’t think you should worry about that, quite honestly. There are a lot of reasons someone would not be able to attend in person, and it should not be a big deal to anyone who is reasonable.
        All that said, from reports I’ve heard, flying is pretty safe, due to the recycling of air. Everyone wears a mask on the plane. You can choose to sit by the window and not partake in any snacks or drinks. I’ve seen people wear gloves on the plan, wipe down their seats and trays before sitting down. No one blinks an eye at people who are more careful in these situations.
        For in-person meet ups, some people will just wave to each other, or fist bump for greetings, and it’s perfectly fine if you don’t want to shake hands or physically interact.

        1. Ashley*

          I would say skip the food court area if you are flying as people are rarely masked. If you are still thinking about flying, do you have public transport in your city as a test? Or maybe other small activities were people are mainly masked but there are people to try? A little like the letter write about their anxiety from COVID? At the end of the day if you don’t have to and you aren’t comfortable don’t. Take the out in part to help remind people this isn’t 2019 and COVID isn’t just over.

    5. Pam*

      Maybe you will be seen as a non-team player. You also won’t be risking your health, and possibly dying. I would stay home.

  43. DAMitsDevon*

    I mostly have a good relationship with my boss, but it’s become apparent over the past year that we have conflicting views on how to handle holiday PTO (different from vacation, sick, and personal days). For background, our administrative offices are closed for 13 holidays each year. Prior to 2021, this meant that all employees would also automatically have the day off on those holidays. However, in order to be more inclusive of different religions and cultures, this year our leadership started giving us the option of choosing to use that PTO on the holidays the office is closed for or using that PTO to take off for a holiday that the office doesn’t close for- so think a Jewish employee using holiday PTO to take off work for Rosh Hashanah and then working on Christmas instead of taking that day off.

    The implication from HR and senior leadership was that if you didn’t need or want to use holiday PTO to take off for holidays when the office is open, you should just stick to the normal holiday schedule and take off work on the holidays the office closes for. I told my boss at the beginning of the year that in order to keep things simple, I would be following the regular holiday schedule as in previous years. However, my boss seems to think that if a holiday happens to coincide with a busy period, we should go to work and take the holiday later in the year. Given the nature of our work and that deadlines can just be suddenly changed, these busy periods aren’t things that happen at the same time every year, or sometimes a busy period was supposed to end before the holiday, but then a deadline gets postponed so things are still busy even after I already made plans for the holiday. Also, in previous years, even during a busy period, everyone would still take the day off work for a holiday when the office is closed.

    I’m writing/venting about this today because it seems like my boss was a bit taken aback by me taking the day off for Veteran’s Day yesterday. On Wednesday, he even asked if I had plans for the day, and I assume if I had said no, he would have asked me to work that day. Part of me worries that I’ll seem lazy and that I’m not a good worker, but my boss is the only director at organization who does this. Everyone on else in our division, even other directors, follows the regular holiday even when they are busier than we are. I’m annoyed because I’m worried that I look bad even though I’m the one going with the company culture.

    I guess I wanted a gut check- am I being immature? Should I be working on these holidays?

    1. Colette*

      Personally, I’d be flexible when I could, and take the ones that were important to me. For example, maybe I’d work Labour Day if it happened to fall in a busy period, but I’d take Christmas, because that one is important to me.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      No, I’d be annoyed if every single holiday was considered “floating” and I could never count on being able to take them off when they occurred. I mean, there’s reasons they are national holidays. You’re following both the letter and the intent of the “law.”

      1. ferrina*

        Yeah, I’m with Rusty. It also sets a precedent of “But we’re buuuuuuusy!” which I’ve found is a very dangerous thing. People should expect to get time off and that they won’t be asked to move it around because “work is busy”. Yeah, in my industry, it’s always busy, but it’s the boss’ job to manage that without encroaching on work-life balance (fwiw, I’ve been the boss in this situation).

      2. Chauncy Gardener*

        I’m with Rusty too. There’s a reason they are federal holidays! And it’s very very nice to take the day off knowing that everyone else is off too

      3. fueled by coffee*

        Yeah, this. It would be one thing if your boss had asked you specifically about Veteran’s Day in advance – as in, it’s a busy period, technically it’s a holiday but would you mind swapping the day for Halloween or whatever. That would still have been mildly annoying, and you would probably be within your rights to decline, but I would understand the boss asking. But just assuming you would give up a planned paid holiday because work happened to be busy seems to misunderstand what holidays are for!

        1. fueled by coffee*

          Oops, I guess Halloween was a Sunday this year. Read this as “Halloween (observed)” on October 29th.

    3. Attractive Nuisance*

      WTF?!? I would assume the whole point of the policy to begin with was to allow people to celebrate holidays ON THE HOLIDAY, instead of having to postpone their Hannukah celebration to Dec 25.

      Your boss is bananas.

      1. Cold Fish*

        I agree with the consensus. The point of the policy is to allow non-Christians to celebrate their holidays on the holiday, not to create floating holidays that are dependent on if you are busy. Take the days, they are part of your benefit’s package.

    4. Florida Fan 15*

      No, you should not be working on those holidays. You’re following your company’s policy and, unless you work in a very specific field where people will literally die if you’re not there, the work can wait. (And even in those jobs, people rotate coverage.) Being a “good worker” doesn’t mean you have to be available at the company’s beck and call 24/7, and you’re not “lazy” for having a life outside work.

      I’d also caution against making decisions based on how you think people might be thinking. If your boss hasn’t come right out and said he has a problem, don’t ascribe one to him. Let him use his words, especially if his problem is against the grain. You say he’s the only one who seems to expect this; let him put that out there clearly and own it. My money says he won’t.

  44. Nonprofit Woes*

    Seeking advice on a new job:

    A couple of weeks ago, I started a new position with a nonprofit and was incredibly excited to start with this organization that’s relevant to my long-term career goals. I am a “basket weaver” and applied for the only job that was available at the time, “blanket knitter.” I am pleased to say that because of the advice I have read on this blog I was able to interview well and get the job despite not having the blanket knitter experience the posting required (I have relevant skills that are transferrable to the blanket knitter job).

    While I was interviewing for blanket knitter, the CEO of the nonprofit brought up a new position that was about to open up, “manager of basket weaving.” Obviously, as a basket weaver, this is much more relevant to my skills, interests, and experience than blanket knitting. After being chosen for the position of blanket knitter, I interviewed (a week into the job!) for the more relevant position and am waiting to hear back. The interview went extremely well and I am very highly qualified for the new role.

    However, since starting the first job as blanket knitter, I have encountered an avalanche of red flags, mostly because of the manager of my department who I am working with on a daily basis. My manager makes constant mistakes and always shifts blame to others, yells at me in front of people I am supposed to be managing, and puts off training so she can complete her heavy workload (I have some limited sympathy because she is currently doing the jobs of three people, but I still need the tools to succeed in my position). The problem is that this means I’m either left on my own with limited resources to train myself or I have to ask subordinates to train me in our department’s processes. My manager assigns me difficult, awkward tasks that she doesn’t want to deal with (such as calling an irate customer we accidentally overcharged) and doesn’t give me enough information to deal effectively with them, leading to me taking abuse from (understandably) angry clients who are speaking with someone who isn’t familiar enough with the organization to know answers to everything. When I speak with my manager about needing more support or training, she blames me for not speaking up sooner or not listening. She yelled at me the other day for missing tasks she assigned to me in an email chain of over a dozen replies and CCs.

    Furthermore, one of my blanket knitter coworkers warned me that I need to keep track of my hours because mistakes have been made with time cards in the past. Morale is extremely low among my department and people are constantly gossiping about coworkers behind their backs. My manager was complaining yesterday about how our new hire, a college student, was “infuriating” to work with because she was too stupid to learn the job (this is her second week). Also, the job was listed as 20 hours a week and my manager is insisting I work 30, telling me that “we just have to be flexible in this industry” when I voiced concerns about my schedule. I am having trouble sleeping and am experiencing physical symptoms due to the stress of this job, and it’s affecting other aspects of my life as I applied for a part-time job that has essentially turned into a full-time job with no benefits.

    Back to the “manager of basket weaving” position. This position is in a different department and the job is being vacated by a friend whom I used as a reference. She was SHOCKED to hear about the level of dysfunction in the blanket knitting department and assured me that she had never encountered anything like that in the basket weaving department. Additionally, this position involves cultivating relationships with famous basket weavers around the country and would be a huge benefit to my long-term career goals. This would all be great, except I am in an awkward position because the company wanted me to interview for it after I had been offered my current job. My current manager knows I interviewed and in the interview I was asked if I would be willing to do both jobs (I said that would be a conversation we could have once I understand the nature of the new role more). I am walking a fine line between being dishonest and not giving away too much information that would hurt my chances of moving to a role that’s a much better fit.

    So right now I am waiting on hearing back about the basket weaving manager position. The problem is I desperately want to quit the blanket knitter role, but I don’t want to hurt my chances of getting the basket weaver position and be seen as a job-hopper. How do I navigate the wait time? It could be a week or two more until they make a decision regarding the basket weaving position, and in the meantime I am being assigned duty after duty and am also concerned that my manager will see me as too valuable to let me go and tank my chances to get the new position. Should I say that I am planning on quitting if I don’t get the new role, or quit if/when that happens? I am resigning myself to burning this bridge in the worst case scenario because I cannot continue working weeks to hear back and then giving two weeks’ notice on top of that.

    Any advice on how to navigate this situation?

    1. ferrina*

      Hold on for a couple weeks. If it helps, think of these weeks as part of the basket weaving interview. Demonstrate how you handle challenges. Wait until they make the decision, and if the basket weaving doesn’t work, leave and explain the situation in the blanket knitter’s department in your exit interview.

      This sucks because you really can’t say “give me the job or I quit.” Even though it makes sense here, it’s just not a good look.

      In the meantime, find ways to make this bearable. Ask for training from subordinates- that’s actually not that uncommon. Demonstrate what a True Professional does by being kind, clear in your communication, good at your work, and generally a joy to work with. That will also lend more weight to your exit interview- it sets the context that you aren’t a “jilted jobseeker” but truly a concerned and reasonable professional.

    2. Sherm*

      Work gets easier after you give notice — your realize you’re getting out of there, bosses can’t threaten you like before (What are they going to do, fire you?) and coworkers who had issues with you stop caring. (And that’s assuming you really do have to give 2 weeks notice. Maybe not?) So that means only a week or two of this — not long at all! I would not tell your current manager that you’re planning on quitting. It might not reduce your workload and could backfire in many ways. (For one, she could give you MORE work because she wants you to get it done before you go.)

  45. Scorbunny*

    I just found out I have to have minor surgery for a recurring medical issue, and y’all, my boss is great. Last time I had to have the same surgery, I was much younger, more inexperienced, and in a close-knit workplace where everyone was prone to oversharing issues like this. (It was my first job with insurance through the job, so.) This led to my then-boss deciding she knew better than I did how much time I’d need to recover. Unfortunately, she’d had the exact procedure done years ago…which was nice at first because she did let me know what to expect, not nice in every other aspect of things. She was also demanding that I wait for our busy period to be over/a good time/basically to put the job’s needs above my own. Wasn’t a great experience, though I guess I did learn a lot about how to handle and not to handle medical issues in the workplace.

    This time around, I just said “Hey, I’m just letting you know I’m going to need some minor surgery and will be taking a few days off,” and he just said ok and to make sure I let his assistant know to put it on the calendar. That’s it, done, I’m scheduled, and he doesn’t seem too fussed about wanting any doctor’s excuses or interested in forcing me to come back in before I’m ready. No details have been exchanged. I’ve got the schedule for things laid out and it’s no big deal if I have to take more time off than I had initially planned. I’ll even have a half day to ease back into the flow of things and see how I do. It’s great!

  46. Nicknames at work?*

    I have a new coworker. He’d like us to use his nickname, and has updated his profile in as many of our systems as possible to display that nickname. It’s a stupid nickname; I feel dumb saying it. We’re not talking “Billy” for “William.” It’s more like “My name is Rick, but people call me ‘Maverick!'” Do I gotta?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I have a hard time deviating from the rule you need to call people by their preferred name. Maybe just avoid addressing him by name where possible?

    2. Colette*

      Yeah. That’s his name, you don’t get to decide to call him something else. The only exception would be if it was something like Master or SexyOne or something really rude.

    3. The Original K.*

      I think so. I worked with someone who exclusively went by her childhood nickname, which had nothing to do with her given name (e.g. Bitsy and her given name was Joan). I felt silly, but she truly did not go by her given name, ever – I didn’t even KNOW her given name until I went to an event in her honor. (She holds a very senior role so the name hasn’t held her back.)

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Seven years with my ex-in-laws tells me that it’s really easy to avoid calling people by name if you want to :) (They really wanted me to call them mom and dad and I really didn’t want to, so I didn’t call them anything and they didn’t ever notice.)

        1. anon24*

          I’ve been with my husband for over 10 years and I still don’t know what I’m supposed to call his parents – I’ve literally never addressed either of them by name.

      2. Observer*

        Deciding that you get to choose someone’s name / nickname comes off much the same way. BAAAD used of social capital.

      3. fhqwhgads*

        I mean…yeah I guess IF it is a fratboy nickname. I’m assuming your example was just an example, but fwiw I’ve known a handful of people whose given name is Maverick, and anyone calling them “Rick” would be doing the nicknaming. So unless this person is in some way being a boor about it, rather than only asking to be called it, you ought to let it go and call him the name he asked to be called.

    5. TiffIf*

      My grandmother had an unusual nickname–to most of the world she was known as “Honey.” It had started out as a term of endearment from her husband that then got picked up by her children (Pop calls her Honey, so that must be what she is supposed to be called) and simply became her nickname for the next 60+ years for EVERYONE–family, friends, co-workers. I promise you that as you use it more and more your mind separates it from being “weird” and it just becomes that person’s name.

      1. KMG*

        We had a co-worker whose nickname – and the only thing she would answer to – was “Sugar”. On the one hand, it made me feel creepy. But it was her name, so we used it.

        Had another that used a pretty mainstream name for the first few years (think “Lisa) but her actual birthname was Russian with many syllables and not easy for non-Russian speakers to say/spell so she never used it. About 4 years in, “Lisa” decided she wanted to celebrate her heritage and change to a hybrid version, which she made up. On paper, it looked like a relatively simple 4 letter, one syllable name. Unfortunately it was pronounced very differently. For example: think “Like” and pronounce it “Laykee”. Again, her name, her choice. But 1) it was a hard transition after we’d all called her Lisa for 4 years and 2) it was hard to understand the choice for an unusual spelling and sound when she literally made it up. The new nickname had a slight connection to her birthname, but was not a normal shortening. Again, we did the best we could to honor her request. But it meant explaining and spelling her name to others hundreds of times!

      2. Flower necklace*

        Exactly. You get used to it.

        Not exactly the same situation, but I have a coworker whose name is pronounced the same as a test given every year at my school (we are teachers). I actively avoided saying her first name after I met her because it always made me laugh inadvertently.

        Now, a few years later, I hardly think about it. It feels like I’m saying a different word when I say her name versus when I talk about the test.

    7. CBB*

      As dumb as “Maverick” (or whatever it is) may sound to fresh ears, if he’s been going by that name his entire life, it probably feels unremarkable to him and people who know him. You’ll probably feel the same way after a few months.

    8. Kesnit*

      I have a colleague who goes by a name that sounds very “redneck.” We work in a conservative field in a rather conservative part of the country. The nickname is not in any way connected to his legal name. He signs documents with his legal name, but everyone calls him by his nickname. I’ve known him long enough (and called him by his nickname long enough) that it would be very difficult to switch to using his legal name. (If he wanted me to, I would. But it would take time to remember to do it.)

      As others have said, this is the name your coworker uses. Go with it

    11. nekosan*

      I myself have a silly nickname that most everyone uses. If I see anyone looking uncomfortable with it, I try to be quick to say they can use my given name or some other variant. I’ve been happy with other names too, as long as they aren’t insulting. So, I’ll happily respond to “Katya”, but “Slimey” (“like Oscar the Grouch’s pet worm!”) is right out.
      You could try asking him gently. Or, just use the weird name and think of it as a personal challenge in treating people how they want, even if you think it’s silly.

  47. Pins&Needles*

    I had an initial interview for an HR Manager position on October 6. It went great, and I sent one thank you email to everyone on the interview panel.

    They then requested a second interview – I was not available for the initial time they sent, so requested a different time. They agreed, and I had my second interview on October 20. I again sent thank you notes, this time individual and customised to something that each person asked in the interview. I received responses back that were very positive, including from the ED.

    I heard nothing for two weeks, until I sent a “checking-in” email on November 2, expressing that I was still interested in the position. I received an apology email from the ED who said that they had not made a final decision, some meetings had to be rescheduled, that I was still in the running, and that they hoped to have a final decision on November 3.

    I still have not heard anything. I don’t know when to know if I’ve been ghosted or if I should reach out again next week if I haven’t heard anything or… when is it too many times to reach out?

    I am interviewing elsewhere but this position checked a lot of boxes for me personally and professionally. (They also don’t currently have an HR person, so that may be why things are taking so long…)

    Any advice?

    1. Mockingjay*

      Only what Alison oft reiterates: hiring decisions can take a very long time; don’t wait for the offer, keep looking (which you are already doing). It’s hard to wait when you find a role that really fits and you are excited about the possibility. Stay open for other positions; the next job opportunity might check even more boxes.

      (Fingers crossed for you.)

  48. N.J.*

    I have an interview next week for a job that’s a big deal for me. I work at a university in one area, but volunteer with a group at the university that does DEI activities related to gender and race. I’m interviewing for a director level position in the official DEI unit of the institution. Anyone who works in this area or has interviewed, any pointers as to how to prep beyond the usual? Questions that might be asked, things I should be doing?

  49. often trapped under a cat*

    Recently completed our annual ethics training. We do different subjects each year: bribery, confidentiality, gossip, harassment, etc.

    This year’s was on sexual harassment and hostile workplace, and it was one of the best trainings I’ve ever done. So many times the scenarios presented in these trainings are so exaggerated that it’s easy to tell when something has crossed a line; this time the scenarios were a little more subtly constructed (still easy to answer correctly for me, but at least some thought had to go into it). The language was more inclusive as well.

    I actually wrote to HR to tell them it was a good training, since I have complained about trainings in the past (like an earlier sexual harassment one where all the women in the scenarios wore tight little miniskirts and barely-buttoned buttondown shirts).

    Trainings have improved so much since the days when we’d sit in a room while lawyers lectured us on what not to do and inevitably some older cis het white man would start talking about how there was nothing wrong about complimenting a woman’s appearance.

    1. No Tribble At All*

      That’s great to hear! If you don’t mind sharing, what were some of the scenarios you thought were well done? (Hopefully because this is under a cut, people can scroll by if they don’t want to read this)

      1. often trapped under a cat*

        One scenario I liked:
        Woman is hired by a male manager to be part of an all-female team. Everything is great, but manager is touchy-feely…but with all the women, not just the newcomer. Newcomer is uncomfortable but everyone else is apparently fine.
        Several options offered for what she should do, including some discussion of “if everyone is okay with it, am I making a big deal out of nothing?” as well as, “maybe they’re not all okay with it but no one has said anything.”

        Also, trans issues, while not depicted in any scenarios, were explicitly included in the sections that talked about LGBT+ people.

    2. Training?*

      What training was it, if you don’t mind sharing? I’m in HR and always looking for non-eye-rolly compliance training.

      1. often trapped under a cat*

        Not sure if this is helpful, or not, but it’s on Cornerstone and the title was something like Workplace Harassment and Discrimination Avoidance.

        At least one other workplace it also using it–when I posted a couple of details on Fb, a friend at another company said they took the same training. They also felt it was a good training.

  50. Medmal*

    I have a job seeking question. I have an interview in a couple weeks for a job that I really hope to get (unless something comes up in the interview that makes me think it would be a poor fit, of course). My current employer gives me a lot of flexibility for doctors appointments. I have chronic health issues, so there are several days a month I leave work an hour early (I use PTO for it since I’m hourly) for medical visits. I see 2 specialists once a month and currently I see a therapist once a week but we will eventually taper to less frequency. MY QUESTION IS: if I ask about what sort of flexibility a New Job could provide me, should I wait to ask this until after I’ve received a job offer? I don’t want it to come across as a red flag for them during an interview, but I also don’t want to be hiding it.

    2. Purple Cat*

      You don’t (shouldn’t) reveal that you specifically need time off for a chronic health issue, but you should absolutely be asking about job flexibility during the interview process. Their response will tell you a lot about the company culture in general. If it’s a red flag for them that you’re asking, then it’s a red flag for you in terms of working there.

    3. Haha Lala*

      I’d wait for the later stages to ask the specific question, but it’d be fair to ask questions about what the regular office hours or what hours would be expected of the position. The interviewer might answer by telling you about their flex hours, or something similar that answers the question you haven’t asked.

      And when you get to the offer stage, you might also want ask for specifics about the insurance providers, so you can verify if your drs are covered or if you’d have to switch drs.

  51. Amy Farrah Fowler*

    Question regarding relationships with my husband’s employees: My husband is the manager (not owner) of an LGS (local game store). He’s always been very involved in the community and has been managing this location for over a year now. I play a little D&D and am an avid board gamer, but I’m not involved in Magic, Warhammer, etc. I like to spend time there, hang out with people, and I genuinely enjoy the company of both several of the regular customers and the employees working there. As “the boss’ wife”, what are my responsibilities? I make sure to be friendly to everyone, I don’t have “favorites” among the employees. I made a gift and made sure to give all of them one. I just want to make sure I respect the line and that I don’t ever make anything awkward either for them or for my husband. He and I have talked about this as well, and he thinks I’m doing well so far, but has some fears because one of the owner’s has a fiancee who does interfere with the business in ways he doesn’t appreciate. Any advice would be appreciated!

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      lololol as a parent of a Magic player this made me laugh because I can picture the setup at the store. But anyway to answer it from a professional POV, I think you should limit the time you hang out there to once a week, for your regular gameplay sesh. You shouldn’t be hanging out all the time, it could distract your husband and/or detract from the professional image his employees need to have for him. Don’t make his employees your friends.

  52. Ann O'Nymous*

    Suggestions on navigating the first few months of pregnancy in the office, particularly during COVID? I’ve done this before, but it seems so much harder during COVID – masks make nausea worse, coming to the office obviously not feeling well makes other people uncomfortable, etc. (Or maybe it’s just worse because I’m older. Or maybe I just forget how much it sucked the other times!) We are expected to be fully in-person, or I’d love to be home working on the couch in my PJs, masklessly nibbling crackers.

    1. Ann O'Nymous*

      Related: I’m only 6 weeks, but my pants don’t fit comfortably at ALL. This has not been the case this early in my previous pregnancies. If I start wearing maternity pants, will it be completely obvious? This is mostly a work question, because I can wear sweats and leggings at home.

      1. Haha Lala*

        I think this depends on your coworkers. I’m one of the only women in a office full of men— I’m convinced I could show in sweats and PJs for weeks and only the receptionist would notice.
        And where I am in the USA its also getting cold. Baggy sweater and layers can hide a lot (including the stretchy waistbands of maternity pants).

        As for navigating the office, do you think your manager or HR would be sympathetic or helpful if you tell them early? If your job can be done from home, maybe WFH part time would be a good compromise? I don’t think there’s an easy answer, but at least it’s temporary!

        1. Ann O'Nymous*

          I expect my manager (single woman, no kids) would be well-intentioned but possibly a little tone deaf. HR would probably be useless. They’ve been so strict about no WFH that it would be obvious to the rest of the office that something was going on if I didn’t have to come in every day. I doubt HR would even allow it – so far they have said that people could stay remote only by applying for an ADA accommodation, and I don’t believe I would qualify. (I might be able to get away with a few days here and there only if HR *doesn’t* know about it, actually.)

    2. Moths*

      I’m currently about 6 months along and remember all too well those first several months where I felt terrible. My situation may be a little different — I am lucky to have a private office where I could take off my mask and shut the door and put my head down for a couple of minutes if needed — but even still, I felt like it was pretty obvious to everyone that I wasn’t feeling well. And yet it caught everyone by surprise when I finally told them last week. Some things that I found that helped:
      Sucking on hard candies nearly constantly, especially peppermint ones. The smell of the peppermint off of them helped sooth the mask nausea.
      Likewise, putting just a little scented balm on the inside of the mask, especially with peppermint oil. Obviously, be careful with oils, but I found putting a little on the mask helped again with soothing my stomach a little while breathing.
      If possible, take your lunch break in your car and use that time to take a nap or at least just close your eyes and rest. I just keep a blanket in my car at all times for this.
      Also if possible, shift your day to start a little later if that would help you. I had a heck of a time getting out of bed in the morning and would need a slow start if I didn’t want to start the day over the toilet bowl. No one seemed to notice that I was coming in a little later.
      Take a few extra bathroom breaks and just sit and breathe and rest if needed.
      Definitely switch to the maternity pants now if you’ll be more comfortable. If you wear the right shirts over things, people will probably not notice.
      Blame a lot on covid/holiday stress. People seem to completely understand fatigue and snacking more and anything else you blame on it if you say that you’ve found things have stressed you out lately and that’s got you worn down/snacking/feeling exhausted.

      Good luck with things and congratulations!

  53. Orange Crushed*

    Besides leaving, is there any way to work in an environment where they expect you to read their mind, then get mad when you don’t know what they want? I was tasked with creating an inventory of teapots, but have never seen the teapots before or know what kind of teapots are there. My boss said to “do whatever”. I found an old inventory that I used, but when I told the manager in charge of it all, he seemed mad that I didn’t have it done. I showed him what I had and he said that it was just more like a general count of teapots and supplies. (I had a more detailed listing.)
    Also, if I ask follow up questions on how to do the work, they get upset/frustrated and/or ignore you, so either way it sets you up to fail.

    1. RagingADHD*

      Well, yes – but the only way to make it work is to focus on your paycheck, while you switch off the part of your brain that cares what they think or needs affirmation. They are unreasonable and obnoxious, so there is no way to “win” that scenario in terms of making them stop being obnoxious.

      The only way you win is by knowing what this job is doing for your personal goals, and take satisfaction in seeing your plan come together to move on into a better situation.

      You relentless behave in reasonable and professional ways, and let the obnoxiousness wash over you like noise. It isn’t easy, and it does wear on you over time, so it’s good to get that plan together and be ready to move on.

    2. vma*

      The worst jobs/managers I every had expected me to read their minds and were not able to be consistent or communicate clearly what they wanted. It’s a recipe for anxiety and my biggest red flag. You’re never going to be able to make it a good job, but if you’re okay just pushing through for a paycheck, that’s possible. My first job like that, I was young and didn’t know to get out so managed to outlast that manager who left after one year and things were much better with my next manager. But that’s no guarantee. The next time I encountered a manager like that, I got out at the first signs.

  54. JustaTech*

    A bit of levity for a Friday morning: I have a vendor who has decided that it is too much work to process a monetary payment for our (very brief) use of their fancy machine, and so they would like to be paid in donuts. (Or cupcakes, or pizza.)

    So the folks up at legal are drafting a rental agreement with payments in donuts.

    This is hilarious.

    2. Purple Cat*

      That’s awesome.
      I wonder if the specific flavors will be codified into the contract? What happens if the bakery runs out?!

      1. JustaTech*

        Thankfully there are at least two local donut chains with locations between me and the place with the fancy machine. And depending on how they feel about those donuts (for some reason most of the “fancy” donuts in this region are cake donuts, which I personally find deeply inferior to raised donuts), there’s another bakery with donuts closer to my house where I could pick up a couple dozen on my way in.

  55. reject187*

    Education is weird. Can I actually negotiate my salary? Should I be?
    I’ve been a teacher for 10 years and have had 3 classroom positions. I’ve never felt like negotiating was an option for pay scale because it looks like it’s usually either mandated by the union or government (in public schools) or limited by the budget (in private schools). I’ve never felt underpaid but I’m also one of those teachers who “doesn’t do it for the money” – and I’m married to someone who makes twice what I do. Plus as much as I’m run ragged and don’t have time for everything during a day, those vacations are a sweet sweet perk. I’m satisfied with what I have and where I am, but is there value in negotiating salary or benefits, and is it even possible at the high school education level?

    1. Pins&Needles*

      If you are unionized, the answer is no, those negotiations must be handled through the union.

      (And, fyi, employers can and should do wage adjustments mid-contract if they need to for hiring purposes – just reach out to your union and ask. I’m hazarding a guess that 99% of unions are not going to turn down increasing salaries/wages for their members mid-contract, although they may want it spread out more than you as an employer does…) ((20+ years of experience in unions here…))

      If you are not unionized, you can always try to negotiate a better salary or perks, but the employer can always say no.

      2. silver linings*

        This is not always accurate. Some educational union contracts have a band or range for a specific appointment, and if you demonstrate “extraordinary service” or whatever the contract language, you can apply to get a raise within your band.
        But your union is the best source of information – find your shop steward and ask.

    2. Pam Adams*

      My union- higher ed- allows for in-range progression: you stay in the same salary band, but are moved to a higher level; and changing to a different band- Level II to III, etc.

    3. Vermont Green*

      At the first interview stage with a new school board, I was able to persuade them to include my years of teaching Adult Basic Education outside of the K-12 system in the numbers of years’ experience they granted me. So if you ever switch districts, and if you have related, but not strictly relevant, experience under your belt, see if they’ll count it as experience.

  56. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

    Started a new job Monday. Technical field, lots and lots of information for me to absorb. So far so good.

    My question – how do I feel like I’m not pestering a few of my coworkers unduly?

    There are a couple of people who everyone points back to when I ask “hey, where do I find the llama database configuration file”, and I don’t want to be continually pestering them on Slack. Everyone else I get along with fine, we schedule 30 minute meetings to go over something, hand off responsibilities, etc. But there are 2 people that I’m worried about having to go back to over and over again.

    Any advice on (a) not being annoying, and (b) not *feeling* like I’m being annoying.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      When you’re talking to one of the two coworkers you ask questions to the most, you can bring it up. “Hey, for a lot of the questions I ask, the answer is usually ‘talk to Sam.’ Is asking you on Slack as things come up working for you? I don’t want to interrupt your workflow.” Then you can see what ‘Sam’ says. Maybe they’re cool with it. Maybe they’re prefer a standing 15-min meeting every day/week so you can ask the questions all at once. Maybe they’d like a bulleted email list. Who knows? So ask.

      And I suggest asking when you are talking to them, either in-person or over Zoom/Teams/etc (not on Slack) so you can hear their tone of voice.

    2. Dittany*

      No reasonable person will think you’re annoying for not knowing the ins and outs of a job you’ve only been doing for a week. (Think of it this way: Would you rather take five minutes to answer a basic question, or have to clean up a mess because your coworker didn’t ask that basic question?) Most people *like* feeling helpful and knowledgeable, as long as they’re asked politely and don’t have to do anything too horribly challenging.

      Apart from that:

      – Make sure that you used your non hitting-up-your-coworkers-on-Slack resources to see if your question was answered somewhere in there.
      – Be respectful of their time. (I.e., stick to the question without a ton of small talk or a play-by-play of your niece’s ballet recital.)
      – Take notes so that you don’t have to ask the question again.

  57. awesome3*

    As someone who probably wouldn’t be totally organized either, I think the only way it would work is if everyone exclusively used this software. So if you just gave it to this person and everyone else was still doing their own systems, for me, that wouldn’t work. I could see it working for me if the boss was like ok, this is the system we all use, here’s how we use it, and there were *no* other organizational systems in place (or if there were, it was explained to me how they tie in, like for paper files, or if the program was able to work with outside programs like meeting invites from other orgs, etc)

  58. Anonymous Pygmy Possum*

    Any ideas on team activities/outings that can be done during the workday/close to the end of the workday and aren’t alcohol-focused? My grandboss (company president) is trying to set up a couple of team outings before the end of the year, but the company culture (very small tech company, but not a startup, and not in the silicon valley) has been very “Let’s just go to a bar and get drunk!” for the past 25 years and he wants to move away from that. We went to a golf driving range a couple months ago, and we’re doing a brewery tour today (which does not help with the moving away from alcohol), but he wants ideas for the future. I suggested bowling and that went over well, but any other ideas?

    For the record, I don’t want suggestions on the line of “Just let people go home early!” – these team-building outings are truly optional and people who don’t go also get to leave early. (Also, for the record, they treat me very well. I have complaints about this job and the way things are run, but there’s great benefits/good pay/etc.)

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      How about a scavenger hunt. Divide up into teams – of people who don’t normally work together – and try to find oddball things in the office, or in a nearby park.

      Weather permitting, you can also do low-impact sports-adjacent stuff like frisbee, horseshoes, cornhole.

      Get somebody from the local historical society to do a guided walking tour.

    2. ThisIsTheHill*

      Work events I or my husband have gone to in the past: zoo, ball games, park w/ a catered picnic or boxed lunch, indoor bocce, fowling (may not be a thing where you live), & Dave & Buster’s (arcade geared toward all ages).

      1. ThisIsTheHill*

        Just remembered – I’ve worked for a few companies with mandatory volunteer hours. A few times a year, our department would partner with a charity & we had the option to work as a team during work hours while getting paid to fulfill the requirement instead of doing it on our own time. Examples: The company bought several bicycles for a non-profit, then broke us all out into teams to build them. We manned a soup kitchen together. We worked in the warehouse of a food bank stocking shelves. We even cleaned bus stops one time – the city had a kind of Adopt-A-Highway program for them. As long as it’s voluntary, it can be a nice change of pace from the norm.

        I’ll never forget the looks on those kids’ faces when they were brought into the room where they received their shiny new bikes. It was like Christmas in July.

    3. TiffIf*

      Ideas:
      – Axe Throwing
      – Go Cart
      – Escape room
      – Miniature Golf
      – Top Golf
      – Bowling

      (These are all things that I have done with work teams. I enjoyed all of them.)

    4. Fun*

      Ok, at the risk of being silly…is there a merry-go-round in your city? Nothing like being a kid again to loosen folks up. And if it’s voluntary, those who think it’s stupid will opt out. Also: a trip to the zoo, a tour of a local notable or beautiful building, a food tasting walk, a trip to an ice cream parlor? Not sure if roller rinks are open, but if so, roller skating.

    5. Frideag Dachaigh*

      In the summer, a mid-day baseball game? Minor league ones are especially fun and cheaper than major league tickets. A trivia event? Something crafty- pottery painting/making, a paint and sip, etc.

    6. peachygee*

      Oops, just posted a reply to you but accidentally posted in the main thread – search “curling” and you’ll find it :)

    8. Observer*

      Board or party games (as long as you make sure that they are work appropriate.)

      Go to a place where people can make pottery / cook a meal / similar activity.

      Get a speaker in to talk about an interesting subject and then open the floor to Q&A.

    9. Purple Cat*

      My very large finance group did an escape room – well, 3 escape rooms because we have so many people. Then went out for drinks at the bar upstairs.
      My smaller leadership team did GoKart racing – SO much fun! And then went out for drinks at the bar across the street ;)
      A paint-night type event is also fun. Guys tend to complain about “painting” but a lot of those places offer wooden sign options too.

    10. JustaTech*

      This is a “really depends on your area” thing but in my city there’s a chocolate factory that does tours and that could be a lot of fun. We also did a distillery tour which ended up being a little weird for the distillery folks because we kept asking very technical questions about their fermentation process (we’re in biotech, so it’s surprisingly similar).

      We also did a chocolate tasting event (onsite) once where we had a ton of fancy chocolates with weird flavors (black rice and quinoa! caramelized sweet onion! root beer!) and we were trying to figure out what the flavors were.

    11. Camelid coordinator*

      My team is between 3 and 6 people, depending on whether we have temps or students. For the holiday we are going to go to an outdoor sculpture garden and then have a nice lunch at a restaurant on site there.

  59. Ann O. Nimitee*

    tl;dr: A toxic nightmare that I escaped is my friend’s dream job. How do I process this but still remain friends?

    I recently escaped a position that at first was a dream job, but over time it drained me dry. It was underfunded, a punishing workload, long hours, and worst of all, a boss who was chronically disappointed in nearly everyone and everything. But now I’m free!

    While I worked there, my office had a part-time employee for a temporary position. She loved the work but it also nearly broke her. Once her position ended, we became good friends. It’s a really small office, so she was the only person I could talk to who understood how bad that place was. I vented to her over the years. A lot.

    Now that I’ve quit, my ex-boss has tapped my friend for the role. My friend is over the moon! She wants to be in that line of work. But she also knows so much, both from working there before, albeit in a less demanding role, and from all the raging I’ve done over the years. I don’t understand it, but I’m trying my best to be a good friend and support her in her happiness. I don’t think the honeymoon period will last, and she’ll nearly end up having a mental breakdown like me. But I hope it doesn’t come to that, for her sake.

    The problem is me. Now that I’m out, I’m dealing with unexpected baggage. I’m rehashing old wounds in my mind. I also feel like maybe I failed at the job, even though objectively I know that’s not true — I succeeded admirably for far longer than most people would have. But how can something that was so horrible and that I shared so freely still be a dream job to someone else? I just don’t get it. I’m trying to process it all and move on. So how do I balance my own recovery with supporting a friend? How am I going to move on when I hear about the job from her? Can we still be friends?

    1. awesome3*

      At least for the time being it doesn’t sound like being the type of friends who chat about work would be healthy. Do you have other common interests that help you remain friends? If so, I’d center the friendship around that, and leave the work stuff out of the relationship for now. I’m sorry that this has been so rough.

    2. Cardboard*

      You can still be friends. Set clear boundaries. Congratulate her and tell her you’re happy for her but that you need to request to not discuss the job moving forward. There’s a possibility her experience may be better than yours for whatever reason (maybe it won’t), and if she seems happy it might burn you up a little. If she seems unhappy it’ll make you keep reliving your bad experiences, and your friendship may become focused around complaining. For now figure out how to structure your friendship around anything but work.

      Also this may seem extreme to some but you might want to see if you can find a professional to talk through all your work baggage. It’s valid, it caused you psychological distress for years and now you could probably use help processing it. It may also help you navigate any weirdness you feel about your friend taking your place there, without making it her responsibility. Good luck!

        1. DEJ*

          I don’t have any answers to your dilemma, but I feel a lot of what you said and love Cardboard’s advice. A ton of people have gotten out of my former industry and I want to scream at anyone still in it or looking to get in it ‘why on earth would you want to go into this/stay there?!’ I probably need to take some of that advice myself and talk to someone about it.

    3. ferrina*

      This is one of the reasons why Alison is wary of “dream jobs”. Just because it looks good doesn’t mean it is good, and deciding that it is a “dream come true” can blind you to the real issues.

      awesome3 and Cardboard have great advice. Good luck!

      1. Ann O. Nimitee*

        Good point, ferrina. I made that mistake, and I believe my friend could be making that mistake too. I’m also trying to accept that everyone has different preferences, and what was awful for me may not be for others, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Different strokes and all that.

    4. RagingADHD*

      I have plenty of friends that I don’t talk about work with. Y’all need to be that kind of friends.

      1. Ann O. Nimitee*

        Something to strive for, definitely. Thanks, RagingADHD. Part of my deprogramming from toxic, all-consuming job is relearning that there’s more to life! Hard to let go of bad habits.

  60. Cj*

    I made a comment on one of Alison’s regular articles regarding being put on a PIP because of my attendance, and had been gone for FMLA eligible reasons. I applied for FMLA, which was approved, met all my hourly and billable hours for the month, and still was fired because of a bogus performance reason.

    That was last Thursday, and the good news is that I had a new job by Wednesday night. Slightly more money, slightly fewer benefits. I sent six resumes through Indeed Monday night, and had four interviews set up by 4:15 Tuesday afternoon.

    Since I have a new job, I guess no advice for me needed. I’m just posting so others will know the jobs are out there, and don’t get discouraged if you lose your job or feel like you need to leave the one you are at.

    1. ecnaseener*

      Good luck in your new job. That stinks what happened to you, but hopefully it’s behind you now.

      1. Cj*

        Yeah I’m not losing any sleep over it. Especially since I got a new job so quickly. The firm I was fired from had a new initiative that I think will be fine in their metro locations, but don’t think as it’s going to go over so well in rural area I am in. I was kind of dreading that anyway.

  61. El Camino*

    Frustrated venting. I’m so burnt out and fed up with my job (nowhere as toxic as the last place I was but the work is similar and really stressful by its nature, and of course we don’t have enough staff to cover the heavy, intensive workload) that I am literally starting medication to help me manage my anxiety. Well Murphy’s Law, my coworker is out sick today and this morning asked me to help with a project due Monday and it looks like she hadn’t even started on it. I’ve got my own Monday deadline and a bunch of other high priority tasks but of course that’s all had to be shifted around. My boss is out on vacation til next week too, so I’ve had to reach out to my grandboss and coordinate what to do while also trying not to throw my coworker under the bus. Thankfully grandboss is helping out in a big way, and I’m not panicking but I’m just so frustrated. I’ve been driving myself crazy for months feeling super anxious, worthless, and incompetent at this job – a lot of it is anxiety-related issues that impact my confidence, and I’ve been seeing a therapist to work on that. But I’ve especially been struggling this week and am having a hard time finding compassion for my coworker (like, rationally I know you can’t control when you’re sick) because she dumped this project onto my lap with zero work started on it. I refuse to work late and work over the weekend on this (a regular expectation in this role and one of the big sources of my anxiety) so I’m dreading the fall out next week with whatever happens. Dreaming of a total career field change and this feels like a sign that I should pursue it.

    1. ecnaseener*

      Sending you all the best vibes and the comfort food/beverage/activity of your choosing once the weekend starts. (And yes 100% take your weekend!!)

    2. Kathenus*

      There’s a difference between not throwing your coworker on a bus and hiding the fact that the project is not even started. I don’t think you need to gloss over that part – because it goes to the reality of what has to be done for that project, and your project, with the Monday deadline. Your grandboss can help prioritize what has to happen but they should have the full information on what needs to be done to make an informed decision. Being honest where needed for the business reality is not throwing anyone under the bus. And kudos to you for setting good boundaries on not working late/weekend to do so, just make sure your grandboss knows what your available time IS so that they set realistic goals for what can be done in work time. Good luck!

      1. Chauncy Gardener*

        This. Just be transparent, but not in a vent-y way about your co-worker. They’re probably in exactly the same situation as you are.
        And do take your weekend and I strongly recommend using it to update your resume and LinkedIn profile. There are SO many jobs out there right now!
        Here’s hoping that you will be in Good News Friday very soon!!

    3. ferrina*

      Ugh, this is the worst! I’m so sorry!

      Having been there, done that, make sure to CYA. Get an email chain with your grandboss stating the priorities and reprecussions. “To recap, I’m working on Project B. This means Project A will be delayed up to 5 days, though of course as soon as Project B is done, I’ll jump back on Project A.”

      I’m so proud that you’re taking your weekend- when I was in this spot, I failed to set reasonable boundaries with my boss and never had any time to myself. You’re being smart and reasonable. Congrats, and good luck!

      1. El Camino*

        This is a fair question. Her message to me was “I need you to do this.” And while we have the same title and are the same level, to be perfectly honest, I don’t feel I have the power to say no. I’ve both witnessed and directly experienced occasions where our department doesn’t have capacity for a project and even when we politely but firmly say “sorry, can’t do it” it still falls on our plates and we just have to suck it up for the sake of ‘customer service’ to the other departments. Probably not a surprise that there’s high turnover in this role :(

      2. Mockingjay*

        This is a good point. It’s not unreasonable – to you or your coworker – to say no. Your own tasks come first. If you are uncomfortable saying no, redirect her to management. “I’m sorry I can’t cover for you today, I’ve got my own deadlines to meet. You should let Manager know that X won’t be complete.”

        And no compassion is needed for a coworker who didn’t do her own work AT ALL and dumped it on you instead. If I had offered to assist, as soon as I realized that nothing had been done, I’d have done a hard stop and brought in the boss – not to help – but to decide what needs to be done before I lift another finger. “Boss, I was going to finish up X for Sick Coworker, but it’s not been started at all. Even if I drop my own deliverables and spend all day on this, I wouldn’t be able to get it done by its Monday due date. As you know, my tasks A and B are also due.” Let Boss decide the course of action.

  62. Purple Jello*

    For various reasons, I’ve decided I’m going to retire within the next 6 months. I’m working on deciding the timing due to tax and medical insurance considerations. My department is already short staffed and is recruiting for two new positions; they will not be happy to see me go. I want to provide them with as much transition time as possible. It is hard to find people with my amount of experience for my position in this region.

    Now I’ve got to decide when to tell my boss.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      How has your company/boss handles retirements and long notice periods in the past? Use that information when making your decision.

      I work for a company that handles retirements well. I think around September or October last year, someone at my company told his boss he was going to retire in 2021. Around November/December 2020, he let his boss know his plan was to retire before April 2021 but was still waiting for some tax information before committing to a firm date. He ended up retiring in February 2021, I think with 2 weeks notice before his final working day. It was a good situation for all involved. He got to retire when it made sense for him, tax-wise, and because his boss had advanced notice the boss was able to hire a new person on to the team in January of 2021.

      If you think your company will be similar, you can tell your boss now that you will retire by X date but could be sooner and they can start the hiring process. But if you’ve seen any indications in the past that that will not go well, just plan on giving 2 weeks notice.

      1. Purple Jello*

        I’m not concerned about being pushed out, instead I think they’ll beg me to stay. I’m confident they’ll work with me. I don’t want to leave them in the lurch but don’t want to notify before I know what’s best for me. But if they do send me off before I’m ready, it’s really just the medical coverage I’m concerned about

        1. PollyQ*

          If you’re in the US and they do push you out, you should still be able to pay for COBRA coverage on the same plan, although it’s pricy. Alternatively, it would count as a material change, so you would qualify to sign up for ACA, even though it might be outside the annual enrollment period. Also not cheap, though.

          But on the larger question, given that you’re not yet sure what the best timing would be and what all the financial implications for you are, I’d wait until you have those issues solidified before I’d tell your employer.

  63. Lady Lia*

    I’m looking for insightful questions from the commentariat. Suppose you could as a prostitute about her life/the business. What would you ask? Simply put, decades ago, I worked as a prostitute and dominatrix and ran a prostitution operation. I’ve been meaning to write a memoir, and now that I work from home, I have endless hours to kill and no more excuses for not doing so.

    A little background, I’m middle class, college-educated, and have a 25+ year career as a graphic designer so this is no tale of woe from a life on the mean streets. The prostitution period lasted five or six years in my late twenties. It’s not something I’m ashamed of or regret, but it’s an endless source of fascination on the rare occasions I bring it up. To me, it was just day-to-day life, filled with mundane tasks like website administration and tracking my Google AdWords stats. Sure, there were numerous blowjobs with random strangers, but that almost seems like a minor footnote. I was running a business after all.

    Anyway, I’d like to solicit reader feedback regarding questions you’d like answered as it relates to my former profession. I’m not looking to be titillating or raunchy, but I find myself wanting an outside perspective. When it’s how you make your living, even the most unconventional situations become mundane. Please, if you’re looking to slut shame, DON’T. I contend that I acted with integrity, and I don’t regret what I freely chose to do. If you want to discuss the legality, that’s a fair point, but keep the moral judgements to yourself. That said, I open the floor to your questions…

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’m curious about the logistics – was it entirely (oh god I don’t mean this as a dirty joke) under the table, or did you have some method of …would that be money laundering? I don’t know if it would, but anyway, did you jump through the hoops to report the income to the IRS, pay taxes on it etc?

      1. Lady Lia*

        I didn’t make enough money to necessitate money laundering. Everything was cash and I didn’t report anything to the IRS.

        2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Yeah, I didn’t exactly mean money laundering like, the Cayman Islands or something, but example: I bought my house from an exotic dancer who incorporated, and had she been inclined to other pursuits as well, she could have run her income through her LLC to claim it legally, without elaborating on exactly how it had been earned. (Maybe that is actual money laundering? I don’t know, haha :) )

          1. Clisby*

            That’s what I thought. Money laundering isn’t hiding money; it’s channeling illegally acquired money through some legal enterprise so it’s not hidden. It’s deposited in bank accounts, you pay taxes on it, the whole 9 yards.

    2. Curious cat*

      There’s a memoir in the UK called Belle du Jour or memoirs of a call girl or similar which was a huge hit and became a tv show but I think it was more titillating than what you’re planning.
      So many questions – why you started and what led to your decision?
      How did you even begin? This is a question of any entrepreneur I think. What was the push?
      What were the best and worst aspects?
      Funny / memorable stories?
      What it taught you? Life and business lessons?

      1. Lady Lia*

        “How did you end up as a prostitute?” That’s the question I get asked the most. Most people assume a tale of abuse and poverty, but that wasn’t the case for me. People are comforted by the thought that it’s something only the most desperate woman would even consider. But someone with a university education and a conventional career as a graphic designer? If it could happen to HER, it could happen to anyone, even YOUR daughter. Perish the thought!

        Anyway, I’ve devoted entire chapter to the subject thus far. Any other questions?

        1. Hlao-roo*

          I would also be interested in why you decided to leave. What did you do next? How was the transition to a different line of work?

          1. Lady Lia*

            I was a big fish in a small pond (small town Indiana) so eventually I got busted. My legal difficulties slowed but didn’t stop me. I guess after a while, I felt I’d learned all I could and there was no to path to advancement. I was already the most successful madam in town. I was nearing 30 and tired of living in a small town, so I packed my bags and moved to Vegas. (Coal to Newcastle, I know) I’d always worked as a graphic designer, even when I was prostituting, so I just continued my career path.

            And no, I never worked as a prostitute in Vegas.

    3. ecnaseener*

      All the ways in which it was just running a business – super fascinating. I’d love to hear more comparisons to other businesses – how similar is the customer service philosophy? Especially if you freelanced in graphic design, what are the surprising similarities/differences there? On a personal/emotional level, was it similar to “normal” work – some days suck, some days are pretty fun, most are just whatever?

      Less related to the book – do you prefer the term prostitute rather than sex worker?

      1. Lady Lia*

        Personally, I prefer prostitute, although I understand sex worker is more politically correct. Sex worker is a catch-all, everyone from cam girls to streetwalkers falls under the heading, so prostitute is more specific. My tentative title is Whore in the Heartland, so I’m comfortable calling myself a whore. Kinda akin to homosexuals reclaiming “queer.”

        As for customer service, well that’s the long and short of it, isn’t it? But what set me apart and made me successful was an emphasis on customer service. Not the sex necessarily, but the overall experience. Things like showing up on time, remembering a client’s preferred drink, not discussing politics or religion, basically old-fashioned good manners. It’s what kept my clients coming back month after month.

        As for how it compared to working a conventional job? It depends on the day of course. While I thankfully never had any dangerous/traumatic encounters, some clients were better than others. But what I enjoyed was the freedom it afforded me. In couple days time, I could easily make the same money as punching a clock for 40 hours. My time was my own, and I spent little of it actually entertaining. Honestly, I easily spent as much time on marketing and website admin as I did on my back.

        1. thebakeisapie*

          Hey, you may have hit on a pretty good book idea–a business book but based on the lessons you learned as a prostitute. That would be pretty cool!

            1. pancakes*

              Melissa Gira Grant wrote about it from a labor reporter perspective, in a book called Playing the Whore. It’s a good read!

          2. anon today*

            A similar book actually has been written — Think Like a Stripper by Erika Lyremark does this. I read it and it is very thought-provoking and insightful.

          1. pancakes*

            That’s a fun title. One of my first literary thrills, along with Flowers in the Attic, was swiping my stepsister’s copy of the Mayflower Madam’s memoir (“Mayflower Madam: The Secret Life of Sydney Biddle Barrows”).

    4. calonkat*

      I confess to almost complete ignorance of how such things work outside of television cop shows. How does one become a dominatrix? How do you find clientele? If you ran an operation, did you manage others? How did you find them/convince them to work for you?

      How was safety (physical and sexual) managed? Did you have any dangerous situations, if so what happened? If not, was it because of safety precautions you had in place?

      Did you ever encounter anyone from your business in a more social setting? How is that handled?

      Since you didn’t report the income to the IRS, I guess there aren’t questions about handling expenses from that point of view, but did you track business expenses (clothes/supplies/medical) to make sure the profit margin was what you wanted? What sort of profit margin is expected? How does one find out, are there chat rooms/forums for discussion?

      Is there “professional development” (lol) or are all skills learned, um, on the job as it were?

      ok, I’ll stop now.

      1. Lady Lia*

        I know prostitution is portrayed in the media as inherently dangerous, but that wasn’t my experience at all. My approach was designed to ensure everyone’s safety at all times. I insisted on meeting new clients in public for coffee and I did all of my entertaining in my home. Everything was to my advantage. If a client wasn’t up to my standards, I could leave them sitting in the restaurant. In my home, I had the home court advantage. I knew it wasn’t likely to be a sting because the police would have needed a warrant to enter my home. I wasn’t putting myself in unfamiliar surroundings and clients tended to be on their best behavior being a guest in my home. Also, my boyfriend, former Army Special Ops, was always nearby, and I checked in with him via walkie talkie at the start and end of each session. Honestly, I was more concerned about a client having a heart attack than assaulting me. An retired executive in his late sixties had much more to lose than me.

      2. Captain Marvel*

        I’m in the same boat. I’d also want to know everything asked in the first paragraph, including how you vetted clients. Did you do referrals? How would that even work?

        I’d definitely read it.

        1. Lady Lia*

          Finding and vetting clients was pretty straightforward. There are myriad escort directories/review sites on the web. And I had my own website as well. And Google AdWords. And an ad in the local weekly paper. If you were looking for a hooker in my area, you couldn’t help but find me. I vetted clients by meeting them in public first. I only turned down a client two or three times. I occasionally vouched for a client, but given the very limited competition from other independent escorts in the area, the need wasn’t really there. Blackbook sites listing problem clients do exist, but I never found them helpful. My geographic area was too small and there were too few clients to make it worthwhile. And a problem client could just change his name/handle/email address and no one would be the wiser. Gut instinct was what kept me safe.

      3. Lady Lia*

        As for business expenses, they were minimal. The biggest expense as was advertising (website, ad in the local weekly newspaper.) But I did all of my own website development and graphic design, so those costs were reasonable. And it was also a source of revenue. In addition to my own personal website, I launched a website that promoted other local independent escorts (and earned me a conviction for promoting prostitution.) Many of the girls who advertised were former colleagues who’d worked at an escort agency alongside me. I charged a monthly flat fee of $200 for their own mini-website. I didn’t actively recruit girls and I didn’t manage their business. I tried to say well clear of their day-to-day as I have no stomach for drama. Personally, I was no more interested in their lives than if I had sold them an ad in the Yellow Pages. If you didn’t have my money at the beginning of the month, your website came down.

    5. It’s FriYay Ya’ll*

      There have been some really great documentaries about sex work in general in the last few years so I think a lot of people became more open to sec work during this time period.

      I’d think from a memoir perspective I’d want to know your reasonings for pursuing that line of work, how you kept yourself safe in those situations, did you bond/create any lasting relationships with either other people in the industry and or clients, how did you skirt the legal issues and deal with them in your current life (if you weren’t in Nevada).

      1. Lady Lia*

        Regarding relationships, I’m reclusive by nature, so the few friendships I had were with fellow prostitutes. We seldom discussed work, but we all had a shared understanding and could commiserate as needed. As for clients, the whole point of a prostitute is to avoid a relationship. The joke goes, “With a prostitute, you’re not just paying for sex, you’re paying her to leave.” Sure, I was on friendly terms, especially with regulars, but a relationship was out of the question.

    6. Inara*

      Since your experience was awhile ago, how would you approach the same situations if they happened now?

    7. Anon for this*

      Did you report earnings for tax purposes during this period? Did you invest anything? How did you plan to explain the source of your income if you ever had to for official purposes?

      Personally, I’m in favor of legal, regulated prostitution among willing adults, but one of the things that I can never wrap my head around with doing something illegal as your primary means of support is how you explain it for official purposes, or how you handle what to me would be the substantial stress/anxiety until the statute of limitations has expired (and I’d worry that the statute on hiding the financial aspect from the IRS would essentially keep being renewed if you in any way invested that money).

    8. Zona the Great*

      I find it hard to be a vagina owner in monogamous relationships. How did you maintain your reproductive health as a prostitute beyond the obvious wearing condoms?

    9. Anon for this question*

      Practical questions: What public places worked best for vetting prospective clients: noisy bars? quiet bars? coffee shops? What did you wear to meet clients in public and to entertain them in private? (Did you launder lots of clothing and bedding in your non-working hours?) Were customers allowed to choose your clothing? Did you tell clients “don’t worry if we happen to be in the same public space; I won’t let on that I know you?” And finally, I’m incredulous that you felt safe enough to meet clients in your home. You must have extraordinary skill in identifying and avoiding dangerous characters.

      I’m not interested in following your professional path, but others might be. You say that you got caught by the authorities, but you were never harmed by a client. Perhaps there’s a market for providing this service to other working girls and guys via webinars, subscriptions to a blog, etc? If it keeps workers safe I can’t see what is wrong with it. Bonus points if you can share information re how to identify people who have been sex trafficked and help them escape (especially if they are underage) if that’s what they want.

      One last (nosy) question: are you still with the boyfriend who had military special ops experience? The romantic in me hopes the answer is “yes,” but relationships run on their own logic.

    10. Weird Bird*

      The question I’ve asked every friend I’ve ever had who got into stuff like this was “how do I get in on that?” And I’m only slightly joking.

      Like, I’ve known/seen people who were already successfully making money with a whole business set up and established clientele and all. I know how you run it once you’re already set up, because I’ve heard people explaining all the typical questions many times. What I’ve never heard is, once you decided to do it, what did you do next? It’s not like you already knew exactly what to do, presumably. So how did you find that out yourself? I’m not looking for a manual (I mean I want one but I don’t expect anyone to write one for obvious liability reasons) I just imagine, like, someone deciding to start doing it and then… What? I can’t imagine what actions follow that. It’s like South Park– Phase 1: Decide on prostitution. Phase 2: ??? Phase 3: Profit.

      I’m especially curious about the femdom side, because that’s something I enjoy but have a hard enough time finding enthusiastic participants socially, even in circles of other weird birds. I don’t know how you leap from that to being able to charge! I am so curious!

  64. Saga*

    How to answer the interview question “why do you want to leave your current job” when the honest answer is that because my manager is not very good in their job (they are bad in managing people, have no expertise in the field where we work, and were hired after I joined)? In a recent interview, I tried to focus on the topics that interest me in the new job but the interviewer was very interested in why I wanted to leave my current job after a relatively short period and after a promotion. They were explaining how they hope to hire someone who stays there for a long-term, and my avoidance of the question seemed probably problematic.

    Besides my manager, I don’t have major problems with my current job, so it feels silly to mention the other issues that I’m occasionally annoyed with such as heavy bureaucracy and heavy central management with limited room for local decision-making.
    So, any ideas or tips?

    (Location in Europe so cultural expectations may differ.)

    1. KateMS*

      When discussing a job where I left due to management agreements, I phrased it more as having different priorities than management. Something like, “Management at current job is operates on a central management system which doesn’t align with my preferred working style. I find that I perform better when decisions are made locally because of ‘reasons’.” You are bringing up that the management structure doesn’t work for you, without bad-mouthing them.

      1. Saga*

        I’ve tried formulating that in my head but somehow it feels too direct in my head when I say it in my own language.

    2. ferrina*

      When I ask this question as a hiring manager, I’m looking to see if we’re going to offer you what you want or just be another problem. If my team is highly collaborative and you like to work by yourself, it’s not going to be a good fit and it’s good to know that up front. I once had someone who was looking to work with experts and a stable team; we had just gone through 3 directors in three years and the current senior most employee had 2 years industry experience. Yeah, not a good fit.

      One trick is to answer what you do want. KateMS’s language is a great example of that. That approach will usually work (and most people will read between the lines). If you need to reluctantly get into a little more specific, that can be okay in specific circumstances. Sometimes I’ll push people to tell me the real reason why they’re leaving, and I’d prefer some awkward honesty “well, my current boss has a tendency to yell” over “no, everything is fine, you can’t make me tell you!” In that case, be really general and frank- no example or anger.

      1. Saga*

        Thanks, that’s useful way of thinking for me! Unfortunately the many many reasons I dislike our manager are quite subjective and would probably not reflect well on me (micro-management, unorganized, unable to prioritise, toxic positivity etc.) so I guess the best option is to find areas that I dislike in my job and do not want to have in a future job, and focus on them, and hopefully avoid further questions.

        1. ferrina*

          This is actually okay! This is a good thing to know about what kind of boss you thrive under!

          “I’m looking for a position that offers opportunities to operate both independently and collaboratively. My current organization is also a bit more on the freeform side with their documentation and prioritization, and I’ve also found that I work best with clear priorities and communication. I also really like honest and direct feedback- I love constructive criticism and find that it helps me grow.”

          If they want to know more, say “well, I’ve found that I can do well in a lot of different types of organizations. Let me tell you about Job At Other Place, where we had a great system of feedback…”

        2. allathian*

          It’s totally okay to state clearly what kind of manager you would prefer to work for. Interviewing is a two-way process, and unless you’re unemployed and desperate enough to take any job, it’s fine to state your dealbreakers. If you don’t want to work for a micromanager, it’s fine to say so.

  65. Tortoiseshell*

    What is the etiquette for a two week notice period that includes holidays? I am in late stage interviews and the company has indicated they want to move quickly. If all goes well (fingers crossed) my notice period would include the US Thanksgiving break. Should I tack on an additional two days to the two week notice to make up for the holidays? Thanks, AAM community!

    1. Miss Bookworm*

      Does your company have a handbook that explains what they consider a notice period to be?

      Mine strongly suggests that a notice period is 2 weeks excluding company-defined holidays (so if my company gives us that holiday off) and any PTO.

    2. ferrina*

      Depends on your role and workload. The notice period is for you to wrap up or hand off your existing projects. I aim to do that 2-3 days before my last day, so the new project owner has a chance to ask follow-up questions if needed.
      If you can wrap up your work before holidays, cool. If it will take a little more time, tack on the extra days.

      If your manager is reasonable, it would be a kind gesture to ask them what they prefer- “I’d like to wrap up by Thanksgiving, but obviously don’t want to leave you in a tight spot. Would it be helpful to have me stay on until [DATE]?” (Note that this is an above-and-beyond; not necessary if you don’t want to do this)

    3. WellRed*

      If I gave 2 week notice today, I would not tack on additional days after the holiday. I think for a fairly typical job, that should be fine.

    4. PollyQ*

      I would offer those extra 2 days, to make up a full 10 work days to handle the transition. Making a good last impression in a job is often as important as making a good first one. But if you explicitly say you’re doing that, you may get back a “Oh, don’t bother, two calendar weeks is fine.”

  66. CrankyIsta*

    I’ve been offered a contract role that would go through middle of next year. I am…not enthused but I have been unemployed way too long and a bird in hand is needed for now. Already had a chat with my therapist about this because truly, it’s not a bad opportunity, it’s just less money, less responsibility, and less “different/new” than I’d been looking for. I’m finding it more distressing than I thought it would be.
    For those of you who have also taken “any port in a storm” jobs, any advice on how to stay positive about the new role, and to keep the hunt alive? I’ve really struggled with this job hunt and it’s a bit exhausting to think I need to continue it but I need to figure out how to use this role as a trampoline to gain energy not weigh me down. Thanks!

    1. ferrina*

      I’m going to sound like a Hallmark card, so my apologies.
      It’s not what you pictured, but there are opportunities to learn and grow in every situation. Approach it with the optimism that it will offer you a path to grow that you wouldn’t get in a more different/new/responsibility position. This might be a chance to observe others in the position that you want, and learn from their approach to that role. If nothing else, it could be a chance to slow down and use that mental energy in other areas of your life. My mother also drilled into my head “You never know who’s watching and what opportunities might come up,” so when I get too bored I make up stories to motivate and amuse myself. Maybe the Sec of State will have an urgent need to read my report because a spy is hiding behind a facade as a weasel farmer, and my report will impress the Sec of State so much that I’ll be offered a job at the DoD as a Special Information Specialist….[insert plot of your favorite spy movie here]

      This approach has worked for me, I suspect because I’m ADHD and constantly interested in everything around me and/or daydreaming. I know it’s not going to work for everyone, but I hope at least some of it is useful!

    2. RagingADHD*

      Stress is cumulative and self-reinforcing, and our capacity for dealing with it is finite. So when you reduce stress in one area, problems in another area don’t seem quite so hard.

      This sounds trite but truly when I have had “any port in a storm” jobs I build my enthusiasm by looking at my bank balance. Being broke and worrying about the future are incredibly stressful, and when the money starts coming in, there’s enough relief to make up for a lot of disappointment about the imperfections of the job.

      1. calonkat*

        Agreed. Most of my life has been that sort of job (I have a checkered work history to put it mildly) and even working part time at McDonalds, I tried to be happy that I had a job and at least some income (while looking for full time work).

        Remember, if it’s less responsibility and less “new”, then you have more mental space to work on other things (like job hunting for after the contract)!

  67. KateMS*

    I’m wondering if anyone has good resources or suggestions on career pathways (I’m not sure if that is the right way to phrase this). I am someone with varied professional experience over the course of 15 years (Government, Banking, Higher Ed) and I keep finding myself stuck in positions with very limited salary growth. I have a Masters in a higher ed related field because I decided to leave banking to pursue something more fulfulling (niche area in higher ed) but it has been very hard hit by the pandemic. I am now in a more administrative function within a university and…it’s fine. But while the pay is ok, I am still barely making ends meet.

    This is all to say, that I simply don’t know what to do. I know that I can’t spend forever moving between jobs that barely cover my necessities (I take part-time jobs on the side to help). I am someone that has always received glowing reviews and feedback from bosses and workplaces and yet I just cannot seem to advance my career. I look at jobs, but the phrasing on some is so vague and jargon-y that it’s hard to tell if I have transferable skills that might apply.

    I am not sure if anyone can really give concrete advice without knowing specifics, so maybe even hearing about others’ experiences would help. I’m just in this professional/compensation black hole that I can’t seem to claw my way out of.

    1. Unladen European Swallow*

      It would be helpful to hear more about the niche area of higher ed that you’re in. In my experience, one factor that can have an out sized role in higher ed pay is how many college/universities are in your area. If your institution is basically the only game in town (or state), then their pay rate is what it is and little incentive for them to increase their pay scales. I’ve seen areas of the U.S. that have clusters of institutions (major cities, the Northeast) have higher pay scales. This is especially true of schools that are considered “elite.”

      Within higher ed, you find higher pay at the Director level and above, sometimes at professional schools (so business, law, med, etc.), or within certain administrative departments. For example, development professionals tend to be one of the highest paid admin roles within a university. Certain departments tend to be lower in pay, such as academic advising or student affairs.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      For job ads with vague and jargon-y language, try drafting up a cover letter with your best guess at which skills will be transferable. Maybe in the process of writing it things will become a bit clearer to you, one way or the other (I think I could do this job or I have no idea what I’m even writing right now). If you think you have a plausible decent case, shoot off an application. You have nothing to lose.

      More generally, it’ll probably be difficult to find a high-paying and fulfilling job but might be a bit easier to find a job that’s either high-paying OR fulfilling. If your area of higher ed has been hard hit (and that’s what you find fulfilling), focus on jobs that seem like they’ll be at a similar level of fine-ness as your current one but pay more. Maybe consider going back to banking if that was higher-paying than where you are now?

      Take a look at your budget/spending before job searching to come up with a salary that will get you out of the “just scraping by” lifestyle. That way you have a solid salary floor in mind and don’t waste time looking at jobs that pay what you’re making now.

      Best of luck with your search!

  68. My Luchador Name is El Guapo*

    I was sexually harassed at a union function and it was highly unpleasant. I’m trying to move forward but I’m worried about gossip. I’m obviously posting anonymously for today, although I’m an occasional commenter here.

    I (40ish married man) was at a conference for my union. I went out to see a band on Friday night with three other coworkers (one 50ish man R, one 50ish woman L, and one 40ish woman D). I was wearing a fake leather jacket, jeans and a tshirt with a local beer brand on it (and my wedding band). R had on a flannel. L was wearing a down jacket over a sweatshirt. D had on a clingy red dress and heels. D had way too much to drink. She started calling me her boyfriend early in the night. I rolled my eyes and started bringing her water. Later, she started grinding her ass against me and I found reasons to step away from her. She kissed me on the mouth and I pulled away. She asked why I didn’t want to kiss her and she kissed me on the mouth again several times. I told her to stop and reminded her I’m married. For the rest of the night she kept complaining about being cold and wrapping her arms around me to get under my jacket. The first couple of times I took my jacket off and put it over her shoulders, but she’d just pout and take it back off.

    I reported the conduct to my union president, who is awesome. He’s not sure we need to report to our HR but is talking to our grievance officer about it. He was there the next day and said she didn’t seem to have any recollection of anything strange. At lunch we were briefly alone at the table and I awkwardly picked at my salad, but she started a conversation about the session we’d both attended that morning, so either she doesn’t remember or she’s a total champ.

    I don’t care about discipline. I’m super worried about gossip, because judging by the way my coworkers didn’t intervene I’m worried they thought the whole thing was consensual flirtation. I’m also concerned that she’ll feel scorned or have genuinely incorrect memories of what happened. Unfortunately we’re also active with some of the same causes so I’m quite anxious about seeing her again and about whether I should quietly disclose to my friend on one of the charity boards.

    1. TiffIf*

      Hey, I’m sorry that happened.

      I don’t know about your other co-workers. Maybe if they bring up doing something like that together again, mention something like “Last time, D got pretty out of control and I wasn’t comfortable, I’ll sit this one out, thanks.”

      I am a little wary of the union’s handling of the incident–D not remembering is immaterial to what happened.

      And, obviously, avoid socializing with D outside of work/professional context in the future. A civil professional relationship in the office is all that is needed.

      1. My Luchador Name is El Guapo*

        Yeah, he didn’t say it meant she wasn’t culpable. That was more in my stream of consciousness worrying about gossip.

        Fortunately D and I work in completely different areas so unless she puts in for a transfer I’ll probably see her about once a year from now on.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I would absolutely report this to HR. Your coworker sexually harassed you, you have witnesses, and you have a legitimate concern that it could affect your professional reputation. Not all of these are required to report, I just think they overwhelming point to why you should report it.

      And agreed, it really doesn’t matter if she claims she doesn’t remember what happened. You know what happened, and your witnesses do too if it comes to an investigation. I’m sorry that happened to you.

    3. anon today*

      There is a chance that D is actually suffering from drinking-induced blackouts; it’s surprisingly common and more common for women than men.

      If you have a friend you can really trust (for instance R or L) you can disclose how uncomfortable you felt and ask for help in preventing the situation in the future. You might have to have a level-set with D, as well — I understand that is super uncomfortable. If you do, keep in mind that she may have a drinking problem that’s unacknowledged and that she really may not remember this.

      1. El Guapo*

        Geez, this is so obvious and I didn’t think of it. Union rep said D “sometimes gets a little sloppy,” which makes me think it’s common. (I’d never met her before the night she made me uncomfortable.) I wonder if this garbage situation can’t be a positive for her somehow.

    4. JustaTech*

      I’m really sorry this happened to you. And I’m sorry your other coworkers didn’t say “that’s it D, you’re wasted, we’re packing it up”.

      That said, it’s usually pretty clear when a drunk person is hitting on someone who isn’t interested, and the uninterested party is too polite to just dump the drunk on the floor. If any gossip comes out of this at all (are R and L the gossipy types?) it would probably be “Oh my goodness, D got so drunk when we went out, she was all over poor El Guapo, who was so patient with her.”

      But if it would make you feel more comfortable you can check in with R and L, something like “D’s behavior the other night was really out of character.”

  69. MountainHome Kid*

    I have a question about job shadowing. I am a K-12 educator and recently a lighting engineer came to speak to our students for career day. Afterward, I spoke to the gentleman further because I knew my 15-year-old son would be interested in this career. The engineer generously offered to let my son job shadow. I have his business card. At this point, I turn the responsibility for contacting the engineer and setting up a job shadowing time to my son, right? Because I have no experience in the business world, I really don’t know what this job shadowing for a couple of hours might look like and therefore don’t know how to prepare my son. So, when my son contacts the man, is an email okay? What should he do to prepare for the time he is at the company? What should he do when he is there (etiquette-wise)? What should he not do? The man presented at our career day in business casual clothing, so I assume my son could show up in similar clothing. What do you think? Thanks!

    1. Observer*

      Your son is 15 and YOU are the one who knows this guy. I think you can make the first contact – email is PERFECT and say something like “My son is interested in this. Is there anything I need to know? If not, he’ll be emailing you shortly.”

      Email is a perfect medium for this. Given that he’s a kid, that first question is reasonable. But making it clear that you are ready to hand off to your kid is good.

      1. calonkat*

        I’d cc your son in on the email, that way the gentleman has his email. Just treat it as an introduction.

        “Lighting Engineer, this is my son, Frederico, that we discussed at career day at Yournameheere High School.”

        1. Hlao-roo*

          I will also add to Obersver and calonkat’s advice: coordinate with your son, so you can send the first email to Lighting Engineer (with your son cc’d) and the your son can follow up.

          “Hi Lighting Engineer, I’m interested in learning more about your job and careers in engineering? When is a good time for me to shadow you on the job?”

          In the first email or in subsequent emails, you son can ask the lighting engineer the what can I expect/what should I wear questions.

          1. Observer*

            In the first email or in subsequent emails, you son can ask the lighting engineer the what can I expect/what should I wear questions.

            Yes.

      2. fueled by coffee*

        Yeah – if this were a regular job, you could then turn it over to your son to submit an application. But since this is more of an informal shadowing opportunity, I think it makes sense for you to do a quick introduction. I agree with cc’ing your son on the initial email and then letting him and the engineer take it from there.

      3. PollyQ*

        Note that unless your son is unusually outgoing & proactive, he’s going to need a LOT of coaching on this, because it’s all brand new to him. But I agree that after you make the “introduction”, he should be the one handling the communication. If and when it gets to the point of an actual “shadow,” things like attire are questions your son should ask about, rather then either of you trying to guess.

        1. Hlao-roo*

          I want to emphasize this. I would have needed a fair amount of prodding at age 15 to contact an adult I didn’t know. And email is a good medium, because you can discuss the message and read it over (if he wants you to) before he sends it out.

  70. Miss Bookworm*

    I have a really crazy situation going on that I need to address with upper management and I’m lost on how to do so (I work for a small company, so upper management = company owner/President/grandboss and his VP/CFO/my boss).

    I have barely taken any PTO over the last couple years, mostly because I was tasked as the sole person responsible for all accounts payable duties for the last 18/19 months on top of my other accounting and non-accounting related tasks (because anything the other departments don’t want to do is dumped on me). Their reasoning being that 1. I know all the different systems that we use (each of our client uses a different accounting system) whereas my direct reports, who had both only been with the company a couple months by March 2020–only know the ones they work directly with and were not fully trained by March 2020–and 2. Both of those direct reports had reasons for WFH (for one it was their health issues and the other a pregnant wife with baby due any day). I didn’t argue—even though I have multiple medical issues that put me in the at risk category—because the reasoning made sense and how can I expect anyone on my team to be in the office when I won’t? On top of the lack of PTO used, I’ve also been working a lot of overtime.

    So anyway, flashforward to November 2021. I’ve been working a hybrid schedule (MWF from home, TTh in the office) since March 2020. My company isn’t fully back; my direct reports are still primarly WFH (though I started pushing in September 2020 for more in-office AP help—each request has been denied due to COVID staffing limits). For a few months in summer 2020 one of those direct reports did come into the office periodically until early fall 2020, but I was told by upper management that AP was still my responsibility and I wasn’t to “bother” my direct report with any of those tasks. So TTh all I do is AP and MWF I spend catching up on the work I can’t get to on TTh.

    Any time off I have taken prior to this month has been scheduled around my office days and is generally 1 or 2 days at a time (tacked on to the weekends, so 4 days off at the most, with months in between). At one point, HR approached me about my unused PTO so I requested 6 days off (W 11/3- W 11/10) and my boss approved it. After that approval I requested to train someone for AP and that request was denied.

    About 3 weeks before I went on vacation I warned everyone that payments were only going to be processed on 11/2 and 11/11 (even though banks were closed on 11/11, I could still enter the ACHs and print checks) and I gave them the deadlines for check requests. In that email I specified that I would not be reachable as I was going to be in a location with very spotty cell coverage. Not a word was said to me about that or any of the reminders I sent.

    On 11/2 (about 6 hours into my 8 hour day; my last day in office before vacation) the company President, my grandboss) tells me that our other departments had complained to him about AP work not being done while I’m gone; his solution was for me to train someone that day to do the payments. I reminded him of my multiple requests for AP help that had been denied and asked him how I was supposed to train someone on AP (keep in mind, multiple accounting systems) in 2 hours when it takes me all day to go through the entire process. Ultimately, no training took place and I left on vacation.

    While I was gone work imploded, within like a day. They could not function without me. I guess they never realized how much I do for this company. They called and texted me about 100 times over those 6 days (I didn’t get any of those messages until I left to head back home) and they even called my emergency contact; my dad was not amused and did not hold back.

    Nearly everyone I spoke to yesterday made sarcastic comments about my time off. The company President told me it was irresponsible of me to take time off and that as a supervisor I should always be reachable; he also said my dad sounded abusive. I literally could not say anything. I had a full on anxiety attack at my desk. Part of me wanted to just walk out (and I almost did). Instead, I spent a couple of hours gathering up every email and every one of my meeting notes where I requested help, asked for permission for a direct report to come in and for me train them as a backup, and where I tried pushing back at tasks being dumped on me.

    My problem is that I don’t know what to say if I show/confront the higher ups with all of this. Do I even bother? I feel like even if I do, nothing is going to change but I want all of this on record.

    Any advice will be welcome!

    (I am looking for a new job, but it’s been difficult).

    1. ecnaseener*

      Oh man! Well, good thinking compiling all your documentation, you’ll definitely want that. I do think it’s worth going to upper management, not to complain about the (awful!) treatment because that could backfire since the President was part of it, but to demonstrate that they very much do need to get another person (or three) in AP.

      1. Dittany*

        Seconded. And for the record, the way you’re being treated is absolutely shameful and I hope you find a well-compensated position with a company that is not full of bees.

        (He told you it was irresponsible to take time off??? IRRESPONSIBLE????? That’s funny coming from a guy who refuses to let the person doing a crucial job to have adequate backup.)

        1. Miss Bookworm*

          Thank you! Fingers crossed I find something quickly.

          Apparently, he thinks I should never take time off and be at the company’s beck and call. They do not pay me enough for any of this.

      2. Miss Bookworm*

        Yeah, the President is not likely to appreciate any criticism of his behavior. I thought he was a decent guy and grandboss before COVID, but he has shown his true colors. I just want help, and for someone to be trained for when I do leave.

    2. Roy G. Biv*

      Yes, write up the briefest, most concise summary of the chain of events with the emails/evidence, have HR put it in your file, and double down on the the job searching. And then wait to see how “irresponsible” it is that you give notice and leave a company that never saw fit to have a back up plan.

      By the way, your dad sounds awesome. And the president of the company sounds like an ass.

    3. Massive Dynamic*

      I’m so sorry and wouldn’t be surprised if you walk. THEY are the abusive ones, not your awesome dad. Be coldly professional and refuse to agree that you were somehow irresponsible. This whole thing is their fault for not properly staffing for core functions of their business. Shame on them, and best of luck to you in your job search!

      1. Miss Bookworm*

        Thank you! I have definitely felt like just walking out a number of times, but have always talked myself out of it. They have always made sure the other departments were well-staffed and everyone has the backup and support needed, but never my department.

        Hopefully, I find something quickly.

    4. WellRed*

      Do not accept the blame for this! I’d absolutely get it in the record with copious documentation, kinda like the best employee who quit bc her mgr wouldn’t let her go to graduation. They’re unlikely to fire you. Fk them!

      1. Miss Bookworm*

        Thank you! I absolutely refuse to accept blame and will make that known. I was just so shocked and my anxiety was skyrocketing, so couldn’t think of anything to do or say at the time.

    5. PollyQ*

      In addition to the very many more obvious issues, you also have the problem that your management won’t let you manage. You should have the ability to delegate and assign work without getting approval for every single reassignment or cross-training. Sure, get everything on record, but these are not reasonable people, and I’d throw as much energy as possible into finding a new job.

    6. Former Office Point Person*

      As someone that used to be in a similar position, I would say it is worth saying something because it might by you some time while you search but if your office isn’t known to act your manager may make your life miserable.
      But for perspective keep up the fight for a new job. It is so worth it in the end. I recently heard from a former co-worker about how much they realized I did and how often they are repeating things I taught them to old boss because old boss still thinks government regulations just don’t matter.

    7. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      Hello Miss Bookworm, I am sorry this has happened to you!
      If you can, free yourself from the desire to have someone trained to do your job before you leave. Your company has proven to you that they are not interested in backup or coverage for your role; there’s no point in you wanting this more than they do – and they have shown that they don’t want it. Now you know, and the other readers here know, that your need for backup and coverage is a necessary one for things to run appropriately. But your company doesn’t want to do it, and you can’t make them want to do it. Your power lies in finding another company which understand and supports the work that you do.
      Your company has treated you poorly for a long time, which is stupid of them. They have taken advantage of your sense of responsibility and have run you into the ground with an a overload of work and no regard for your wellbeing. Thank goodness you took a break at last!
      I hope the break gave you a bit of a chance to see that the situation is unsustainable, and IS NOT GOING TO IMPROVE. Only you can save yourself from this, and I hope that the wave of support from your readers will lift you up and carry you to a much better (and more normal) workplace whee you will be valued. Best wishes!

  71. Sad plans*

    I’d noticed I was receiving less work after I went to my management team about SH from another employee, who was terminated for other reasons. When I inquired, my supervisor said he’d passed me up for certain things because he thought I wouldn’t be able to concentrate because I’d be reminded of my ex-coworker. However, he’s also said in separate e-mails my work has never been affected by anything that I went through and that I had no issues.

    Is this just a typical judgment call and a sign that maybe I need to move on? I’ve already been passed up for a lot of work opportunities and I feel like this means I’m out of luck here.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Refusing to assign you work because you made an SH complaint is retaliation, no matter what rationale they give.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        This calls for an email. “Just to be clear… you said you passed me up for X and Y projects because of my SH complaint? Can I expect to be left out of further projects because of that complaint?”

        1. Kathenus*

          And mention specifically that this would be retaliation for reporting SH, in writing, so there’s documentation.

          2. Observer*

            No, I would first put this in email and if he doubles down, then forward to HR, and put “Complaint about illegal retaliation” in the subject line. Give the idiot a chance to show his true colors. Otherwise he’s likely to hem and haw and claim he didn’t REALLY say that – and then find other excuses for his retaliatory behavior.

            2. Sad plans*

              Thanks so much for the responses, everyone!

              If his statement is already in an e-mail, should I respond for clarification or forward it to HR already? He mentions a project passing me over “solely because of how emotionally supercharged it was from everything that happened” and then he goes on to question me and ask if I could “honestly say it wouldn’t be a lightning rod of emotion every day” and would I “have been able to concentrate?”

              This was never discussed or brought up to me before. Only after I brought up that I felt pushed out after everything that happened with my harasser.

              1. Ashley*

                Depends on what you know of HR. How did the do with your initial complaint and is your company big enough for you to get a new manager / team? Have some phone numbers handy for employment lawyers would be on my off hours to do list in case this goes badly. Keep those records on a non work computer / email.

          3. Rusty Shackelford*

            I wouldn’t lay all your cards on the table like that. I’d give him a chance to respond to your email and say “yes, I thought you’d be distracted.”

        2. Sad plans*

          Thanks for the replies, everyone!

          If his probably comments were in an email, should I respond to it for clarification or just forward it to HR? For reference, his email states that I was passed up “solely because of how emotionally supercharged it was from everything that happened…” This was never mentioned or discussed with me until I brought up recently why I was being passed up for projects while being told I didn’t do anything wrong.

          He also asks me if I could “honestly say working on that wouldn’t have been a lightning rod of emotion every day” and would I “have been able to concentrate?”

          Thanks again for all the responses!

  72. kicking_k*

    This is so basic I feel silly asking: how much time do you all spend on organising your work, planning the next week etc?I’ve moved from a role that was pretty much one or two tasks at a time to a much more complex one where I set my own tasks much more, and I can’t shake the feeling that I’m “not working” during the chunks of time I spend documenting what I’ve done, filing emails and writing notes to self, and figuring out what to prioritise. I know I need this or I’ll lose track, and I don’t really believe my methods are over-elaborate, but it’s taking maybe an afternoon a week. Is this too much?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Nah. I probably spend 15 minutes every morning setting up my tasks for the day, and 15 minutes every evening making sure I have all my notes organized and my action items translated into to-dos and such. And another small chunk of time on Fridays planning for the next week. That probably adds up to an afternoon, if you’re doing in all in one chunk that’s fine too.

      1. kicking_k*

        Thank you! I don’t really do it ALL in one chunk, but I do seem to spend more solid chunks of time on it than I’d expected.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      10% of your time on planning and documentation? Not too much at all. In a lot of fields, that’s not nearly enough time.

      Problems that are caught in up-front planning and design are much cheaper and easier to fix than those that show up right before your work goes out to the users.

      And then this is a great maxim:
      “If you didn’t write it down, it didn’t happen.”

      1. kicking_k*

        … Are you a programmer? You sound like my husband :)

        My work doesn’t really “go out to users” in that way but it does need to be fully documented for legal reasons. Those bits I don’t have trouble seeing as “work”, more the records I keep to help my own workflow. I guess it’s just the change between this and my previous “arrive, work on same project you were doing last week, leave, continue until project is done” kind of role. I do need to have the notes or I’ll waste more time trying to work out where I was with things.

    3. ecnaseener*

      It definitely counts as working! All the tasks you named are valuable and at times crucial.

      I don’t do all my organization in one sitting so I don’t really have a good estimate of how long I spend on it, but one afternoon of a 5-day week is 10% of your time. That sounds reasonable to me.

      That said, it never hurts to take a look at your processes and see if you could be more efficient with them. For example, if your process for prioritizing tasks looks something like collect to-do items from various emails, make to-do list, go into each task on my to-do list and figure out / remind myself enough of the details to determine its priority, then painstakingly sort the list by priority, you can make that easier on yourself in a few ways. (Namely, enter everything into your to-do list right away, and take the extra 10 seconds to include its due date & estimated amount of time it’ll take. Bonus: do it on a spreadsheet so you can sort by those values.)

      1. kicking_k*

        What you say there touches a nerve a little; I feel I SHOULD be doing all this as I go and then it wouldn’t “count” as a task in its own right. But I have ADD and anxiety and it seems to work better to have at least one point in the week when I say “Right, let’s check and make sure I captured and updated all the current tasks and action points.” That way, the squirrel brain will be less likely to forget something. I do always record due dates and approximate priority as I go, although I sometimes revise the priority based on what else has come over the transom.

        Someone a while back recommended having a single searchable document for listing everything I need to know about, and that has also worked well.

    4. awesome3*

      Oh my gosh that definitely counts as work, that’s a very normal amount of time needed for that. In fact if you’re able to keep it to one afternoon a week that seems super organized and efficient.

    5. JustaTech*

      Totally reasonable. I’ve had project where the whole 10+ person team spent a whole day in prep; on smaller projects it might be three people for a few hours.
      Prep time and wrap up time are just as valuable as “obvious working” time. Especially wrap up time. You have no idea how many times I haven’t been able to find the answer to a question someone else researched because they didn’t write it up.

      1. kicking_k*

        Yes, that is important. I do hate it when something else urgent interrupts wrap-up time! It’s so much harder to get back to the “just finished” mindset and remember what needed to be recorded when you’ve had to switch off task.

        I’m essentially a one-person mini team and am the only one who does what I do, but increasingly I’ve felt that I need to get 100% of what I know about my work out of my head and into some easily consulted form that someone else could pick up; what if I get sick? I’ve never been the only specialist before so it’s new having to allow for this.

      2. kicking_k*

        Wrap up time is vital and I do hate having it interrupted by the next task! It makes the documentation take so much longer if you can’t do it right off.

  73. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

    I work for a Fortune 500 company that is also a government contractor. My boss has been soft-peddling the inevitable vaccine mandate, saying that all you have to do is fill out a form if you’re not vaccinated, it’s no big deal, no one is going to get fired, etc. I have been waiting for the chickens to come home to roost and yesterday was that day.

    We had an all-company webinar where it was clearly stated that even if you are 100% remote, if you are not fully vaccinated by 12/31 (without an approved religious or medical exemption) you will be automatically terminated. This means that for those choosing Moderna or Pfizer, they need to have their first shot by next Wednesday 11/17.

    I am now wondering how many employees are really going to walk over this. My feeling on my team is that most if not all of us are vaccinated based on past conversations, but I’m not sure how it will shake out across the entire organization. Assuming I am still working here in January it will be interesting to see what happens.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      The recent numbers from public service employees, like police unions, are encouraging. All the PR and news reporting was “15% of our members are going to quit!”, and then it turns out to be less than 1%.

    2. CBB*

      I assume anyone who resigns (or allows themselves to get fired) over vaccine mandates is someone who was going to resign anyway.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      We did vaccine mandate back in September. Out of 36,000 employees org-wide, we lost 120, and in my division of 5500, we lost 22.

      That is, people who were terminated as a result of not getting their vaccine. That admittedly doesn’t count the ones who quit on their own volition in the lead-up, but from what I was hearing in management meetings, there weren’t hardly any folks who did resign during the four month lead-up that actually claimed the vaccine mandate as a reason.

    4. Purple Cat*

      I have a feeling this is mostly “all bark and no bite”, and personally, I say “good riddance” to those that would rather lose their jobs than get vaccinated.
      The question is – where are those people going to work, since the vaccine mandate is in effect for the vast majority of companies. I’m very much looking forward to seeing how the alt-right spins this, since right now job openings are only because “nobody WANTS to work” and “People are just sitting at home taking handouts”, when they join those unemployed ranks what will the message become.

    5. Generic Name*

      For comparison, a large healthcare system in my city lost less than a percent of their staff over the vaccine mandate for healthcare workers.

  74. Tired Giraffe*

    Hello! I have two questions I’d love some advice on. One specific to working in higher ed, one about relocating.

    I will soon have an interview for a clinical faculty position at a public university in the US. I have never worked in higher ed, and so far the interview experience is extremely different than I’m used to (e.g. I will have two fully days of on-site interviews, rather than one one-hour interview). Because I’m not very familiar with working in academia, I’m wondering if anyone has any suggestions about what questions I should ask during my interviews. For reference, this position is mostly teaching students in a clinical one-on-one type setting, but there is some didactic and laboratory teaching components.

    Additionally, this job would involve me moving to a region of the country I’ve never visited. I’m looking forward to having a couple days to explore the town during my interview, and the university has scheduled a meeting with a local realtor to talk about the area with me, but does anyone have any suggestions about what kinds of things I should do during my free time to get a crash course in what it’s like to live in this area? Visit the local tourism office? Check out downtown? I’d be relocating with a family (spouse and children) and am a 30-something homebody.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      You can certainly find lots of tourism stuff on-line – both generated by the city/county/state or written by travel magazines, etc. You don’t have to wait until you get there. Especially look for the “hidden gem” kinds of columns. And don’t forget hitting the state parks system or country rec department to find things to do. Even amateur video travelogues – there are zillions of those on YouTube.

      One thing I’d recommend doing is getting a really good paper map of the area. Scrolling through on your phone or laptop screen is not the same thing as putting a big paper map on the kitchen table and looking over it.

    2. N.J.*

      I live in a university town and work in higher Ed. A lot of transplants to the area join some of the local Facebook groups geared around the community, local schooling or parenting and ask quality of life questions there. For example, housing, neighborhoods, activities that are important to your family (places to eat, outdoor activities, activities for smaller kids), school quality, housing costs, traffic etc. I’ve seen a lot folks get decent anecdotal pictures of the pros and cons.

    3. Unladen European Swallow*

      Has the interviewers given you clear guidelines on what to expect during your two days of on-site interviews? For teaching positions, it’s common to ask potential faculty to either teach a course or to do a mock teaching session. I’d make sure that you have a clear understanding of what is your expected teaching load, if the position has any additional administrative work tied to it, and what expectations, if any, there are regarding service. For example, will you be required to sit on committees? Is this role expected to advise students? If so, would it be freshman, or upper classmen? Will you be expected to oversee theses? Is the role tenure or non-tenure track? If it’s non-tenure, then how are contracts determined? On a yearly basis? If this is a non-tenure role, what options, if any, are there to become a “senior” levels within that role? How does one go about achieving that role? For example, if the title of your role is “Lecturer,” is there a way to eventually become a “Senior Lecturer?”

      Because you have a family, try and get some time with other faculty who have families of similar size/age. Where do people live? In town? In the suburbs? Do most people have their kids in the local public school system or do faculty mostly have their kids in private school? Is your spouse currently working? If so, how easy (or not) will it be for the spouse to find a job within their area? If currently now working, is that something the spouse plans to do in the future? Some universities have faculty perks like university housing or funding to go towards purchasing a house. Granted, that last one tends to be reserved for superstar faculty a school may be hoping to attract/poach. You never know so it might be something to ask. Also, is your pay for 12months or for 9/10months? As a public institution, how is salary determined? How are raises (merit or living costs) handled? What are the grocery store options in the neighborhoods? If there are specific ethnic ingredients you’re used to getting now, how easy or difficult would it be in your potential new area? If it’s important to you, what is the political climate like in the potential new area? How are local or state laws affected by the governor/legislature?

      These are the types of questions we were asking ourselves when we were considering a potential move to a new university in a different state for a role I was offered.

    4. Eden*

      I think the tourism office is a waste of time unless tourist attractions are very important to you. Living somewhere and visiting it are very different and they won’t really have the relevant info for you.

  75. Pan Troglodytes*

    Hello, I’m looking for some good wording to approach a contact in my network who might be feeling a bit let down by my company for not hiring them. My company has a bit of a track record of low-balling, having a drawn out interview process, and being very exacting in their requirements of applicants. If this person experienced any of this they might not view my company in very good light.

    However, I am about to be working alongside them at a sector event. I view them highly, and I can see myself learning from them as a professional contact (they are very senior, I am mid-level). I advocated for them during the interview process although I could see my colleague’s perspectives.

    Considering the upcoming work, does anyone have any advice how to approach them in a friendly way and hopefully establish a professional relationship independently from my company- especially because I don’t see myself being with my company for more than another year and this contact would be a good person to know. If it’s relevant- they also seem like a decent person and I think they would have been a great boss.

    Can anyone here think of a good way to do that- perhaps some wording?

    Thank you in advance :)

    1. Purple Cat*

      Especially since you aren’t a senior person, they shouldn’t hold YOU responsible for the decision your company made. Are you also absolutely sure that your company didn’t offer them the position? Perhaps they got an offer and turned it down?

      It’s hard to tell how involved you were in the interviewing/decision-making process, but assuming you haven’t seen this person since then, just say “Hi xx, good to see you again, I’m sorry things didn’t work out with X position I think you would have been a really valuable addition to the company. I’m glad we get to work together on Y.” (Obviously not around other people assuming the interview process was confidential).

  76. peachygee*

    Probably depends on where you’re located but my NYC-based small team has done a lot of outings that are fun and non-alcohol-centered, although some include it as an option. Think about any sorts of group classes, tours, fun learning experiences, games that you might have in your area. Examples of things we’ve done / considered doing:
    – group art classes (the kind where you can bring drinks / snacks) – glass blowing, painting, graffiti painting, paint-a-ceramic-thing, etc.
    – guided tours of museum, galleries, libraries, any interesting quirky historic places you have around. a walking tour of a local neighborhood.
    – quirky sports – there’s always golf and bowling of course but also ax throwing, curling, shuffleboard
    – we also did a gin distillery tour, as you say not exactly moving away from alcohol but there was lots of history and interesting info and relatively little alcohol consumption
    – a cooking class or some kind of tasting (could be alcohol but also chocolate or…?) or just a fun dinner at an interesting venue

    Also might want to check out Atlas Obscura for interesting / quirky places in your area, again depending on where you are they sometimes have cool events too! (At least they do in NYC…)

  77. Kesnit*

    My wife has worked retail for about 20 years. Her knee has recently become a major issue (age-related degeneration) and she is having difficulty standing for long periods of time. She has decided to start looking for work-from-home opportunities, which is great. Sadly, neither of us have any idea where to even start.

    Can anyone point me towards Web sites/resources/etc that my wife can use to job hunt?

    2. Little Lobster*

      Remote Woman, Ladies Get Paid, FlexJobs, filter Indeed for remote positions. What positions has she held in retail?

          1. LQ*

            Yeah, I know everyone here hates call centers but they are a really good transition job for retail folks. I’d specifically look for inbound call centers. If you can find union call centers (usually government but not always) that usually balances out a lot of the bad things about them, not all but creates some balance.

            With a call center, if you can show up consistently, be somewhat decent on the phone, and show up, promotions aren’t too difficult to get either. There’s a pretty high level of churn in general in them. Honestly, 95% of what matters in most call centers is showing up and answering the phone. Everything after that is gravy.

    3. Indy Dem*

      Would one possibility be look for sitting/remote positions in the companies she has worked for in the past (or even similar companies)? Customer Service experience is a good skill to have in many roles in retail, not just on the floor.

    6. beach read*

      You might try contacting a few local employment agencies. They staff for all kinds of positions. Most will advertise open positions.
      When I was job searching, one thing I did was google the “Top/Largest Employers in …(local town/city)” and then went directly to their web sites to search openings. Good luck to y’all!

  78. Asking for a friend*

    A friend recently started a new job where one of the responsibilities involves accompanying their grand boss to events. They knew this when they accepted the job. After being hired, they were told that this included responsibility for transporting the grandboss to and from these events as well (including picking grandboss up and returning them to their home, which is miles away from their office).

    My friend doesn’t drive so this is a problem. They’ve offered to deal with it by arranging rideshare pickups, which seemed like a workable solution until their immediate boss told them that the rideshare trips would not be reimbursed. They justified this by saying they don’t reimburse for mileage either when staff with cars use them to transport grandboss. This is a regular part of the job – at least several days or evenings per month. They often go to multiple events a day, so the cost for using rideshare for transportation on a single day could easily exceed $100.

    This is illegal, right? Both the mileage and the rideshare parts? My friend is terrified they’ll be fired if they refuse, but what this employer is asking of them feels insane.

    1. I just keep trufflin*

      While federal law does not require employers to reimburse employee expenses and mileage, some states, such as California, do. Furthermore, federal law does require that employers pay minimum wage. When the cost of the expense causes the employee to drop below the minimum wage, the employer does have to reimburse mileage and expenses.

      Employers don’t have to pay the IRS recommended rate… No. Each year the IRA releases its optional standard mileage rate. The standard mileage rate in 2020 for the use of a personal vehicle for business purposes is 57.5 cents per mile driven. That’s down 0.5 cents from 58 cents per mile in 2019. The optional standard rate is just that: optional.

    2. Little Lobster*

      This is not illegal. Neither part. (A caveat could be if these expenses cause your friend’s pay to dip below minimum wage.) Yes, it’s unreasonable. Yes, they can fire your friend for refusing this set up. Honestly, having a policy of never reimbursing mileage is a pretty big red flag. They should look for a new job.

    3. L. Ron Jeremy*

      Have your friend get an open top, horse drawn carriage to pickup the boss.

      See if he can put up with smelling horse farts on his journeys.

      1. Delta Delta*

        Eh, horse farts smell like hay. At least my horse’s farts smell like hay. Not entirely unpleasant.

    4. Alex*

      I don’t think it is illegal but it is insane. Why don’t they regularly reimburse for driving? And why, if driving was part of the job, didn’t they confirm that the person they hired had a car and could drive? And why does this grandboss need someone to drive him around or PAY FOR RIDES for him when he is likely paid a lot more? This is absolutely nuts on a number of fronts and your friend needs to look for a new job.

      1. Asking for a friend*

        They didn’t just fail to confirm – they were fully aware that my friend couldn’t drive when they made the offer. It came up twice during the interview process!

        First, when they reached out and asked if my friend was interested in the position, they sent a job description that said you had to have a car. My friend responded immediately saying they would be interested in working with them, but that they don’t have access to a car and also didn’t meet several other requirements in the description that had been provided. They wrote back and said oops, we sent you the wrong job here is the actual position we’re hiring for, which made no reference to driving or transportation. Second, my friend talked about how they don’t drive during their final interview – so everyone was fully aware. Apparently the hiring team all discussed it and decided it would be inappropriate to make being able to drive a requirement of a job that (other than this need to ferry grandboss around) is highly skilled and has zero reason to require a drivers license. Grandboss was part of this discussion.

        I personally agree that grandboss needing to be driven around at all is unnecessary, but unfortunately that behavior is not uncommon in this line of work – which tends to attract people who have very high opinions of themselves and their importance. But to expect the employees to be paying for the boss’s transportation out of pocket – especially when we’re talking about literally hundreds of dollars a month – feels insane to me.

        My friend is a wreck over the whole thing. They’d been unemployed for over a year and were getting desperate, then they got two job offers at once and turned down a better-paying opportunity for this.

    5. PollyQ*

      Agree with the above comments, and your friend should start job-hunting now, because I don’t see this ending well for him, but I do see it ending soon.

  79. The Green Lawintern*

    Hi all, I’m hoping to get some advice on how to coach my report on some of the language they use (or if they need coaching at all). My report will sometimes phrase things to supervisors such that it sounds like a directive when it’s not really appropriate to do so (ex: telling grandboss that they will “let them manage” communication with another department). I know this person has zero bad intent when they write this way and will happily take on tasks if asked, but it still takes me off guard briefly when it happens. I can see them potentially running into trouble in the future if they communicate like this with someone who is less laid back as well.

    Is this worth addressing? And if so, any tips on how to do so in a constructive manner?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      “You write emails like we’re a flat organization, but this is a hierarchical company (or a traditionally hierarchical industry). So rather than telling higher-ups what they should or shouldn’t be doing so bluntly, soften your language. Instead of ‘I’ll let you manage communications with other departments’, say ‘I think it would be appropriate if communications with other departments was done at your level’. You should be making observations and recommendations, not giving orders.”

    2. Observer*

      Definitely worth addressing. This kind of messaging is inappropriate and it is going to come back to bite him. I may also come back to bite you, too, as it looks like you are not paying attention to someone who is over-stepping his bounds. Also, does he talk to this way to coworkers? In some ways that’s worse. His grandboss won’t feel pressured to do stuff nor will they worry that they are not being taken seriously. But a coworker could easily feel that way.

    3. fueled by coffee*

      Ha, I wonder if this is the karmic backlash for all the “be confident and assertive in the work place” messaging directed at young people. I would just explain gently that when communicating with higher-ups, the report actually does need to be a little more deferential — asking questions rather than issuing statements (even if they know the supervisor will do the thing), adding some “pleases” and “thank yous,” etc.

  80. Am I Being a Diva?*

    Do I sound like a total diva in this salary negotiation email?* My manager asked me to write up my ask that she can refer to when she talks to my Grandboss about a raise. I’m really struggling to convince Grandboss that my current salary is 20% below the market rate for my role (I triple-checked, and that is accurate) and that if they can’t give me a raise, I will leave. But I don’t want to say that explicitly. Here’s the excerpt of the email:

    1. I would like for my salary to fall within the range of other Teapot Design Managers.
    a. Per our discussions, I did some research, and Teapot Design Managers in this region are typically paid between $XK-YK as a base salary.
    b. You said you talked to HR and they agreed that range was accurate.
    c. If approved, I would like for this to happen as soon as possible. I can’t go another year with just a cost of living increase. I need to get paid within the appropriate range for this role. If my salary increases are always going to be pegged to my early career as a Mug Assistant, then my salary is always going to be lower than the market rate for the work I do for COMPANY – and that makes it neither fair nor sensible for me to remain here long term.
    d. The total compensation package argument does not matter to me unless other employees at COMPANY have the same salary arrangement…and I know they do not.

    *Context: I was given a new title, more responsibilities, and more work at the beginning of the year, but no corresponding increase in salary. My old boss (who is now my Grandboss) thinks that since I made a “lateral transfer” in the company, my salary doesn’t need to change — even though I do a completely different job, using completely different and more valuable skills.

    1. Colette*

      It’s not that you sound like a diva, it’s that you’re including a lot of other stuff.
      “I’ve done some research, and Teapot Design Managers in this region are typically paid between $XK-YK as a base salary. You said you talked to HR and they agreed that range was accurate. What needs to happen to raise my salary to within that range?”

      That’s it. Don’t try to pre-emptively circumvent other arguments, or talk about your costs of living, just be clear about what you are asking for and ask.

      1. Am I Being a Diva?*

        Thanks – you’re right, I should just state it plainly, but I tried that first and my boss came back and asked me to add more details because apparently being 20% below market rate is not reason enough for my Grandboss. It’s been frustrating, to say the least.

        1. PollyQ*

          apparently being 20% below market rate is not reason enough for my Grandboss

          That tells you a lot, right there. Time to start job-hunting, I’d say.

    2. ecnaseener*

      You said you *don’t* want to explicitly state that you’ll leave over this, but “and that makes it neither fair nor sensible for me to remain here long term” is pretty explicit.

      Agree with Colette, leave your needs out of it. If your boss wants more than what Colette suggested, I’d add another sentence or two of “I’ve been doing excellent work as a Teapot Design Manager for the past X months [insert key achievements] at my Mug Assistant salary.”

      1. calonkat*

        The fact that the grandboss thinks promoting internally means never having to increase salary is a huge flag. I agree with PollyQ that you should be actively job hunting.

  81. Piper*

    I believe I’m underpaid and I’m thinking about asking for a raise. I’ve come up with the below points to discuss with my boss in terms of reasons that I should get one. Anything I should add?

    1) My own contributions: bring examples of the work I’ve done, the value I bring to the company, and the ways in which I go above and beyond
    2) Market rates for this position in my area: bring data about the current market rate for similar/same positions in my area)

    2. HeretoRead*

      IIRC, AAM has also suggested bringing any glowing client feedback, if that’s applicable in your job.

  82. Anonymouse 4000*

    I have an employee who I really want to succeed, but I suspect they have an impression of me as an incompetent manager. I worked as their supervisor for many years when they were in a different role, and they aren’t aware of the “behind the scenes” stuff that happens, and so I think they started to think, “This didn’t get done, it’s because Anonymouse 4000 didn’t do it” and not “That’s not the way things are done here”.

    They recently started in a new role, and instead of having a moment to wake up and say, “Oh, I get why we do things this way now”, they’re doubling down, because if they just be MORE ASSERTIVE, things will GET DONE. The effect is my supervisor is talking about terminating them before their probationary period is up.

    I’ve tried to give feedback, but because their impression is I am just lazy or too nice or whatever, they’re ignoring me. (Basically, “Anonymouse 4000 is too nice! If I tell this person, who is several levels above me, that they need to get this done like I’m their boss, it will, and I will be the hero of this story and show Anonymouse 4000 how she should be doing things!” instead of the more likely, “This person is going way out of their lane, being way too aggressive, and is going to get fired.”)

    They’d probably get it if they got fired, but I’d rather it not get to that point.

    Can anyone share what moment was your “wake-up” moment that they need to keep their head down and learn before trying to agitate for change? Anything I could say or do that might work? I really want this person to succeed, but I’m just not getting through to them, even being very direct.

    1. Colette*

      Are you calling them out when they do the wrong thing?
      “Hey, employee, I heard that you asked HighUpPerson to do this. If you need something outside of our group, I need you to go through me. It hurts both your standing and the reputation of the team when you don’t follow process.”
      “We talked about how we aren’t going to work on this. I’m very concerned that you did it anyway. What happened?”

      1. Anonymouse 4000*

        I have been, but I just don’t think it’s getting through, because they think my way (i.e. the Company’s way, that I have learned the past 8 years of working here), is ineffective. And sometimes it is! Not because of the way, but because sometimes you can do things the right way and the Company still says no.

        So when I call them out directly, they think I’m just being lazy/not assertive enough/etc. and so it just seems to go in one ear and out the other. They really seem to think, “If I just bulldoze everyone, things will get done!” and … that’s not how it works. And quite frankly, they’re in a management position, and I am keeping a VERY close eye on how they treat their reports due to this attitude.

        2. Observer*

          I think you need to say something like “I understand why you want to do things X way. But that is not the rule here. At this point pushing it is not going to change that but it most definitely is putting your job at risk.” When he’s making demands of higher ups tell him “When you talk to to BigBoss as though you have standing to make demands or issue orders you will not get the results you want. It is totally inappropriate and you are putting your job at risk.”

          Clear and to the point. No more long explanations. He’s not getting it. At this point, the only thing that *might* get through to him is clarity that whether or not you are “lazy” or “too nice” or whatever else he’s telling himself is not relevant – if he keeps it up, he’s STILL not going to get what he wants, but he very likely will lose his job.

    2. Jack Bruce*

      If you’re already being very direct and they’re not getting the point and even getting worse about it, I don’t think there’s any more you can do. You can’t care more about their success than the person you’re managing. I’m not sure what will get through to them except them being called out on it by someone even higher than you.

      1. Anonymouse 4000*

        Yeah, that’s what I’m afraid of. I think they have a lot to offer the position, but they seem to think they already know better and don’t want to learn. It’s their first position in this type of role, and I suspect it’s an attitude that a lot of us had early on in our careers that had to be untaught, so I just wanted to see if there was something a wise old mentor out there said to someone that woke them up to the case of Learn before Initiative.

        1. Jack Bruce*

          I didn’t come into positions in the past with that kind of demeanor, and most of my reports didn’t either, so maybe I was lucky. So it always confused me when people do this- perhaps it’s different because this person has been there a while, but their time in the position is new so some listening and learning has to happen. I have very little patience for people like this- but maybe being even more direct and a bit harsh as suggested above will help. It doesn’t sound like they’re trainable and that means they may never learn how to do the job effectively.

    3. PollyQ*

      I’d worry a little less about their attitude and focus more on their actions. Sure, the root cause may be that they don’t respect you (although it may be that they don’t respect anyone else). Ultimately, if they’re ignoring your instructions or are too argumentative, then deal with those issues head-on. And remember that communication is a two-way street. If you’re not getting through to them, it doesn’t mean that you’re communicating badly.

    4. Daydreamer*

      Is there somebody who can give a ‘second opinion’? I’m not sure I’ve had what you would call a ‘wake up’ but I have on a handful of occasions reassessed what I’m doing because a second person has pointed out the same thing eg I ignored Jane when she said the finish on my teapots was sloppy because I took that to be just her opinion – but when Fergus, who worked with me in a different capacity to Jane, pointed out the same thing, I knew it was time to neaten up my teapots.

      I can easily see how they’d think ‘Anonymouse 4000 is only saying that because she’s just not an assertive person’ but maybe if a second person came along and pointed out the same thing, it would make them rethink.

      But also are you explaining the specifics behind ‘that’s not the way things are done here’? It kind of feels like if the problem isn’t explained properly, the solution remains to shout louder. But, if it was spelled out, ‘We’re not going to be working on the relaunch of the chocolate teapots soon because we need resources from Wakeen’s team and they are busy on the glass teapot project, which has a tight deadline set by a big client’, that might offer some closure.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        It sounds like Anonymouse’s supervisor shares the same negative opinion on the report’s behavior *and* has firing authority. Has this supervisor had a direct conversation with the report that the report’s job is in jeopardy over their attitude?

        For what it’s worth, if this person has a bull-dozer attitude that’s out of synch with the way the company in general runs, it does not bode well for their own direct reports. Either this person will try to coach them all to be Aggressive Go-Getters, which would put them at a disadvantage for internal transfers or promotions if they buy into it or hurts morale if they recognize the disconnect to how things actually work, or will expect them to work miracles in an environment that doesn’t support it which impacts morale.

        Sorry, but I would not be surprised if firing is the best option here.

  83. Toasty Bread*

    Our performance reviews take about six months out of the year. I find this ridiculous. We start at the beginning of November with reviewing ourselves, then managers have time to review their direct reports, then managers discuss the ratings for direct reports with their managers, then we meet with our managers to discuss our goals for next year, then we finally get our review back from our manager but raises and bonuses are a separate conversation that doesn’t take place until March, and bonuses aren’t paid out until the absolute last possible day and raises don’t take effect until April. Yes, it is a FULL FIVE MONTHS between us reviewing ourselves and getting our yearly raise. Then we also have a mid-year review in July, which is thankfully just one conversation with our manager about how things are going so far.

    Is this normal? What are other people’s performance reviews like?

    1. Captain Marvel*

      That doesn’t sound normal to me. You have two reviews and one of them takes 5 months to fully complete?

      Our reviews happen twice a year, once in July and once in November-December. We do a self-review, our manager does a review, we have a meeting about it and then the results of the meeting get sent to HR. It’s supposed to take under two months in total; at least for the end of the year one because of Thanksgiving getting in the way.
      Although my manager did not complete our mid-year reviews this year so it feels like one long review this time around.

        1. Captain Marvel*

          Lol, in this economy?
          Yes, we used to but our org has frozen them for two years thanks to the pandemic.

    2. LizB*

      That seems like an unnecessarily long timeline to me. My old workplace was a very bureaucratic slow-moving org, and even our review timeline was: self-reviews are due in January, managers write their reviews by early February, review meetings are in February and March and signed off by upper leadership by late March, and raises become effective in April.

    3. Hlao-roo*

      At the company I work for, the timeline is:

      Mid to end of November: self-evaluation
      December: 1st level manager evaluation, 2nd level manager evaluation
      January to February: performance review (meet with manager to discuss)

      We don’t have a separate conversation about raises, and our raises go into effect in April. So sounds fairly normal to me.

      2. TiffIf*

        Pretty much same schedule for me. For my company, our bonus pay always shows up on the first paycheck in March (we always get paid the 15th and the last day of the month) and salary changes are effective first paycheck in April.

  84. Blue_Texan*

    Asked to volunteer and head a community activity via a cc on an email to my manager:

    This was from someone who handles community outreach for our company. I have sat in some zoom meetings with him but otherwise we don’t have a work relationship. The email was an ask to find a dozen people to voluntarily make a video about their choice to go into healthcare and upload their story to another community organization’s youtube channel. By cc’ing me it made me think since I do media support for our group, I was being passive-agressively asked to find these people, sign them up, video tape and edit their story and upload to the youtube channel if my boss said we’d help. Which she did. There was no direct request to me. It was all implied by cc’ing me on the request.

    It’s my job to do video, so I will do whatever they need. So to followup, I asked my manager how she wanted me to be involved. She said she didn’t think I’d be involved but then later was unsure since it wasn’t clear what was being asked. I see it very differently. To me it appeared he wanted me to head up and execute the project if my manager agreed.

    I’m not happy that the passive request for me to do this voluntary project came via as an email to my manager where I was cc’d. The way I was asked has created a negative bias against any future interactions with the originator of the email. Am I wrong to feel co-coerced to be involved in this voluntary community project? Any suggestions?

    1. Colette*

      I don’t think it was a request, and your manger has said that, at this point, you won’t be. I don’t think you should let your perception bias you against the originator of the message in any way.

      1. Zona the Great*

        I agree that none of this seemed like a request even a passive one. However, I am very adverse to indirect passive aggressive requests or demands so if this happens like the way you think it has, I make them be direct. If nothing was clearly requested of me, I simply take note and move on. I have had bosses try to manage me through the “it would be nice if someone did X” and it always blows up in their face. I’m not obtuse but I’m not trying to turn mental flips to get a basic direction out of someone.

    2. BlueBelle*

      I think maybe they were just making you both aware that this would be happening so that if you or your manager thought this should be something you are involved in you could say so.

    3. Kathenus*

      Agree with the other commenters – you asked your manager specifically about how you would be involved, she said she didn’t think you would be. So unless she gives you future direction otherwise, you have no responsibilities here.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      Agree with the others. It sounds like it’s in your wheelhouse, so you need to know it’s happening, but you haven’t been directly asked to do anything yet.

  85. peachygee*

    TLDR – I’m wondering folks’ thoughts on and experiences with negotiating a full time job “down” to a part-time job, or something like working 5 days in a 4-day schedule, and if you’ve had success with this, at what point in the application process did you raise it?

    I’m very grateful for the flexibility offered by my current organization. I worked full-time (and then some) for about 5 years; I had a baby just at the time COVID turned things upside down and was able to take 6 months of leave and come back at a 3-day schedule which is still working great for me. Granted I’m not growing my career at the pace I might be, but it’s allowing me to spend time with my son, attend to my life, and still feel I’m able to contribute meaningfully to my org (I’m in a mid-level leadership role) and advance, just a bit more slowly. It feels like a great balance for what I need now.

    Despite how much I appreciate the setup, for a variety of reasons I’m starting to play with the idea of applying for new jobs, but would LOVE to keep the 3- or maybe 4-day schedule, or at least have some timing flexibility, to have at least one day a week with my son. My optimistic sense is that maybe attitudes around this are starting to change – given the new ideas around work that are emerging, changing ideas of productivity, lots of talk about the 4-day work week, work-life balance, etc. For the record the industry I work in is the nonprofit / social change / entrepreneurial space which may tend to be more “ahead” in this regard.

    What are people’s thoughts on this, how realistic is this? If you’re an employer would you ever consider this, or have you, for the “right” candidate? Have you successfully negotiated for this? Would it be something I put upfront in a cover letter or wait until I’m further down the interview path and it seems like things are going well? Would love to hear any thoughts! Thanks all.

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      That was actually one of the first management decisions I made when I came onto my team — one of my team members had been asking about going to 32 hours a week for a couple years, I guess, and my predecessor had been kicking the can down the road repeatedly. This particular team member is also of retirement age, and had started mentioning (to my boss, who was covering the interim gap between my predecessor retiring and me coming on board) that she wasn’t sure if she wanted to keep working full-time, but she also wasn’t sure she wanted to retire, and she really hoped we could find some sort of compromise. Boss asked me on my first day, “Eglantine has been wanting to cut back to 4 days a week for a while, what do you think about that?” and I said, no hesitation, “If that’s what it takes to keep her from peacing out entirely and you think we can get HR on board, I’m 100% in favor of it. I am not going to start my tour driving this bus by encouraging one of the drive wheels to fall off.” We made it work. :) (I had a sort of ongoing metaphor in my interview process about how changing managers is like changing bus drivers, it was a whole thing.)

    2. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      I think you would be challenged to find this set up in a new position, unless it is explicitly advertised as such. Also, there’s a big difference between a 60% FTE role and a 100% FTE role that is compressed into 4 days. (Those 4 days are very long days) When I had my first baby, I also came back from maternity leave at a negotiated permanent 60% FTE role, but I had been at that job a while and had a track record, much like your situation, it sounds like. I wouldn’t bother applying to new positions if the schedule you have is your most important thing.

  86. HeretoRead*

    I’m a first year teacher in a title 1 school. How can I find ways to not burn out all at once?
    I’ve had to work 60+ hours a week just to get the bare minimum done since we are so low on resources. My administration keeps saying to not work weekends, but everyone (even veteran teachers) have to in order to keep up with workload.
    Any suggestions are appreciated!

    1. awesome3*

      Hi! So. Um. What a year to be a first year teacher! I can’t tell you how not to burn out, as I’m not sure how to myself, but I have some practical tips that might help.

      1) You are at a Title 1 school, which means your kids probably qualify for free and reduced lunch, or even that the whole campus gets free lunch and breakfasts. This means that you do NOT need to give you lunch away to hungry kids, they can get meals for free in the cafeteria. This might seem harsh, but a teacher not eating during their first year of teaching because they are giving all their food away will pave the road to burnout very quickly. Eat your lunches.

      2) Don’t get into the bragging about how busy you are game. Thinking of being overworked as an accomplishment will warp your thinking for the future.

      3) Talk to others. It seems like you’re already doing this, but seeing what others are doing can help. What are they prioritizing? What calls are ok to drop when needed? Also, if admin is saying they don’t want you to work on weekends, do they have any advice for how to do everything they are requiring of you without that? Even if you already know the answer is probably not, it would be interesting to hear at least what your department chair thinks.

      4) Know what is in the supply closet and don’t be purchasing things yourself!

      5) Give yourself some grace. This is a hard year in schools. It just is. If other people were able to accomplish XYZ in their first year of teaching, it’s ok if you aren’t. They probably weren’t dealing with students who’d been traumatized by a pandemic and lost about 18 months of academic and social/behavioral development.

    2. Flower necklace*

      Seconding the advice above to talk with others. Planning takes up most of the time outside of contract hours, and the best way to streamline that is through collaboration. Getting materials is a big help. I’m EL so everything has to be modified, but it’s better to start from something than nothing.

      Even if you’re the only one teaching your particular subject (which is my situation), talk with other people in your school about what tools they’re using, different instructional strategies, etc. That has been a major help to me this year. Try out different things until you find what suits your teaching style best.

      Also seconding the advice to talk to your department chair, especially since I’m one myself. Paperwork is confusing. Instead of digging through a zillion emails to find that particular form that admin sent out two months ago, it’s okay to just ask. I field a lot of questions like that in a normal day, and I’m always happy to help.

    3. Dark Macadamia*

      If your curriculum doesn’t include things like handouts and worksheets, see if you can find ones that are already written rather than creating them from scratch – ask other teachers in your school or district, check Teachers Pay Teachers, or see if Google leads you to some decent blogs with free downloads.

    4. calonkat*

      You might check and see if there are any mentoring resources in your state. Just having people in your field in your state to talk to could be useful.

  87. Alyn*

    I’m growing dissatisfied at work, mainly due to being forced back into the office despite my job being able to be done 100% remotely (as it was for the majority of last year/earlier this year). The problem I have is that I’ve been with my company for over 20 years and I have no idea where to start. I’ve never written a resume or a cover letter, I’ve never done any job searching – all of my past jobs, up to and including my current one, are jobs I was told about/referred to by friends or family.

    I have no idea where to start, what sites/resources are legitimate, etc. Also, I don’t know what I would do as far as references – my company’s policy is to only confirm dates of employment, and while I’ve had multiple managers & worked on different teams over the years, all of my managers for the last 15 years still work at the company as well, so I don’t know that I could use them for references. I’m not a fan of social media, so I’ve never even been on Linked In.

    I’m an avid Ask A Manager reader, but I’m feeling overwhelmed by the idea of even getting started job searching. Any advice, resources, or reassurances would be gratefully accepted.

    1. Panda*

      Personally I’d start by drafting up a resume and beginning to browse job sites to get an idea of what’s out there and what they are looking for. You can also start a LinkedIn account if you want to use one – they aren’t totally necessary to a job search but can really help. If you have some colleagues you trust to review your resume, it might be helpful to get an outside opinion on your accomplishments (often others remember things we might miss – and since you said you don’t have a resume, you’re likely going back a number of years).

    2. irene adler*

      Might seek out the professional organization pertaining to the industry you work in-or an industry you would like to work in. They can offer an avenue for job search advice. That would include: where to go for any education, resume review, someone to introduce you to people in the industry looking to hire, someone to offer advice on the job market in your field. Things like that. They will also know about legit job sites to look into. Some may know recruiters that specialize in the industry. These people you might seek out on LinkedIn and see if you can connect.

      LinkedIn has professional groups you can join (for free) that pertain to specific industries. That can be a source for learning about the ‘latest things’ going on in your field (if the group is active and posts appear regularly). It is also a way to learn about different companies, their open jobs, and a little about the company itself. As a free resource, it’s worth joining.

      Some places offer local job-hunting groups- like on Meetup.com. Those can be a source for how to interview, craft the resume, cover letter, etc. Might look into these local to your area.

      Also, know your worth! Gather data on current salary. Glassdoor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Salary.com, and professional organizations can help with this.

    3. Little Lobster*

      Unless they explicitly ask for managers as references, you can use your colleagues. Provide their personal email addresses/phone numbers (with their permission, of course). And even though your company policy is to only confirm dates of employment, you can 100% still use your managers as references. That’s a pretty common policy.

      I’d say find a professional group to join, and get their feedback on your resume and cover letter. This here website is the best resource for how to write good ones. Alison’s book is really helpful, too.

      What industry are you in?

  88. Letter of Interest*

    Hi all – first time visitor, directed to this website by an acquaintance on another site, hoping to get some input on my question.

    Here’s my scenario:

    My boss and his boss have both recently announced their timelines for retirement (my boss is looking at +/- 3 years), and so our workplace is doing some succession planning. Part of that planning is creating 2 new “assistant boss” positions within my division. I’m currently topped out in my own position, and while it’s a career position I’d be happy to stay in for another 2 decades until retirement (very common for people in my position), I’m thinking about throwing my hat in the ring as a way to challenge myself and to have an opportunity for growth and to learn new things.

    My question: my boss has asked people who are interested to submit a “letter of interest,” and I’ve never actually heard of that before. I’m googling examples and articles, but do any of you have advice on how to approach this? How does it compare to a traditional cover letter? How formal should I be (for example, Dear Mike vs Dear Mr Smith when I’ve worked for Mike for almost a decade now)? FWIW, I tend to lean toward formality, which I know can translate into stuffy and off putting, but I don’t want to be too casual and have TBTB think I’m not taking it seriously….

    Thoughts? Suggestions? Advice?

    1. Panda*

      I am not specifically familiar with a Letter of Interest in this context, but I would suggest that it’s basically a cover letter that says “I am interested in this position, and here’s why I think I’d be a great candidate”. It’s quite likely that they just want to know who’s interested and will be asking for resumes and interviewing anyone they’re interested in, following that first step.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Do you have a good relationship with your boss? If so, just ask him how formal he’s expecting these to be, rather than guessing.

      Take them at their word for what it is. Write a letter expressing why you are interested in this job. Weight it towards what it means for the company, but it’s certainly appropriate to say exactly what you wrote here: “while it’s a career position I’d be happy to stay in for another 2 decades until retirement … … a way to challenge myself and to have an opportunity for growth and to learn new things.” Your motivation for wanting the job is important.

    3. Indy Dem*

      I’ve heard of these, but have never done one. The way it’s been described to me is “think of it as a cover letter, but from an internal point of view” if that helps.

  89. Green Beans*

    It is my last day at my job and I have been embracing a complete honesty policy. Anything you ask will be answered (within professional boundaries.) It’s been really liberating, especially since we just made a few executive level hires that reached out to speak with me before I left.

    I also had a wildly inappropriate email from a really problematic person in leadership. At which point I thought, “nope, don’t ever have to deal with anyone yelling at me, in email or in person” and transitioned the project off early to our parent organization, where it immediately got stuck in their normal bureaucratic nightmare loop (helped by a second wildly inappropriate email to the person managing the process, who has yet to respond.) A very liberating moment!

    1. Kathenus*

      Sounds wonderful – really like your philosophy here and hope you keep enjoying the rest of your last day :)

  90. Panda*

    I’m curious about suggestions for if and how I should come out at work. I’m pansexual woman and married to a man (so I appear straight), and have been at my company for over a decade. My sexuality isn’t exactly a secret, but also isn’t something that tends to come up in conversation – particularly with coworkers! I am starting to embrace that part of my identity more recently, and it feels disingenuous for my coworkers to not know that about me…but I don’t really know how or if I should tell them I’m not straight. I’d appreciate any advice from others!

    2. CalypsoSummer*

      There are a lot of things I don’t wish to know about my coworkers, and their sexual preferences would be at the top of the list. Unless your preferences/orientation are pertinent to your job, bringing the topic up would mean that you’d be turning yourself into gossip fodder, which wouldn’t help you at all.

      1. Littorally*

        So do you get this upset when a coworker mentions their opposite-sex spouse, or is heterosexuality exempt from being a preference/orientation to you?

        1. Zona the Great*

          Can I ask which part of this post made you think Calypso was upset? They seemed to just say that sexual orientation is not necessary to bring up as it isn’t anyone’s business.

        2. CalypsoSummer*

          Littorally, why would I be upset? I’m not interested in knowing about my coworkers’ preferences/orientation because it’s none of my business and it’s not related to the job at hand. If it comes out in conversation, okay, it comes out in conversation, but bouncing up to someone and making a declaration about sexual preference/ orientation out of the blue is inappropriate in a workplace setting. Plus, as I said, it’s unwise to deliberately leap into the gossip stream like that.

          It’s not a good sign when a coworker remarks, “I don’t know WHY Casey thought I needed to know that — “

          1. Hlao-roo*

            I’m not Littorally, but I can point out some things in your previous comment that I think they were responding to:

            1) “sexual preferences” has been used in the past (and present) to invalidate LGBT folks. As in “being straight is normal and unchangeable but being lesbian/gay/bi/trans/etc is just a preference so why can’t they choose to be normal like me?”

            2) “I don’t want to know” sounds a lot like “don’t ask, don’t tell.” DADT meant that straight people could talk about their significant others/spouses/marriages/children (all things that to some degree imply sex) but gay people could not.

            Your follow-up comment (the one I’m responding to) makes it clearer what you meant.

        3. ferrina*

          Mentioning it as a “How was your weekend?” “Fine, Spouse and I went to this great restaurant….” is one thing, but saying “I’d like you to know my sexual orientation” can be offputting because it introduces sex into a place that sex doesn’t belong. There are jobs where it can be relevant (I happen to work in one, where diversity and diverse perspectives are essential), but it would feel weird to be introduced to “Bob, the new accountant, who is straight.”

        4. Observer*

          I think you are wildly misinterpreting what @CalyposSummer wrote. They didn’t say that Panda needs to keep it a deep dark secret or that anyone who is not heterosexual needs to pretend that they are. They said that they don’t need to know unless it comes up in the normal course of events.

          If people mention spouses in normal conversation and Joe mentions his husband, that’s one thing. But does anyone really want to know that “Well I have a husband but I could have had a wife if I’d met the right person”? Or what positions people like to use, or any other detail?

        5. RagingADHD*

          The point is that since it isn’t visible from the gender of their spouse, it would be a random announcement. If a female coworker who was married to a woman randomly announced to me for no reason, “Hey, just wanted to let you know I’m actually not a lesbian, I’m bi!” That would be really weird.

          I mean, okayyyyyy….but why would that be my business? That’s her and her wife’s business, not mine.

    3. Zona the Great*

      I wouldn’t either. What is the reason your coworkers need to know who you are willing to date/sleep with/marry? I find it just as odd to come out as queer/pan/poly/etc as it would be to come out as straight and monogamous. It is not disingenuous to not tell people who you are attracted to unless it comes up naturally as Colette said. I am not straight and have never hid it but I’ve never “come out” as pansexual unless somehow someone happened to ask if I date transgendered folks (for example). I can’t imagine that ever happening.

    4. Anonymous Luddite*

      Codeswitch. My co-workers don’t know I’m poly, but they know what “date night” night is and if they assume it’s with my wife, so be it. Likewise, I will always refer to my OSO as “my dear friend.” All other friends are friends, but she’s “my dear friend.” So when they ask what I did and I say I spent time with my dear friend, I know what I mean.

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      It really isn’t disingenuous at all to fail to bring this up. Wait until it comes up organically. I’m sure at some point you’ll have the opportunity to talk about an old girlfriend, or your attraction to Gal Godot, or whatever. It would be weird to bring it up as an “oh by the way I feel like you need to know this about me” moment.

    6. TulipBird*

      To be honest, it would be creepy if you had a planned coming out to them. You’re already married, and I see no situation that would come up in a work context where you could say “actually I’m attracted to all sexes”! Feels very strange.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Truthfully, if you said “Rusty, I think you need to know I’m pansexual,” I would wonder if you were coming on to me. Hlao-roo has a good idea below of when it *would* be work-appropriate.

          1. LabTechNoMore*

            Uh. This string of comments comes across really badly. Stating that one’s sexual orientation is pansexual is not a come-on, anymore than my stating I’m gay to a male colleague is not me trying to hop into bed with them. There’s an inherent value in not hiding sexual orientation, as is true for any other marginalized identity. It weighs heavily to keep that part of ourselves hidden from everyone else, even if done unintentionally (and being bi or pan while with an opposite-sex couple can make their queer identity feel invisible, as most folks assume they are straight).

            1. Rusty Shackelford*

              I know it’s late, but I have to reply to this. I absolutely did not say that Panda should hide her orientation. Just that bringing it up out of nowhere would be odd. And specifically telling me, a woman, that you’re attracted to women, with no other context, would make me wonder if you were trying to make a point. If it comes up in conversation, Panda should definitely be as open as she is comfortable being. But don’t just go up to people and say “so, listen, you probably assumed I’m straight because I’m married to a man, but I’m actually attracted to any gender.” That is not the opposite of disingenuous.

              1. LabTechNoMore*

                Still no, emphatically. This rationale is essentially a more mild form of the Gay Panic Defense: Workplace Addition. Being openly queer is not us coming on to you. I’m not being gay at you. The problem is everyone assumes we’re all straight/cis, so any deviation from the norm is immediately assumed to be sexually deviant. We understand not to hit on people in the office, and not to hit on straight folks ever.

                You’re equating simply stating one’s sexuality with wildly inappropriate office conduct. That’s a problem, and all the more reason to normalize being out in the office. With more visibility of queer folks, people will see stating one’s sexuality as benign as saying one’s blood type or natural hair color.

              2. LabTechNoMore*

                Also regarding context. Straight folks truly have no idea how frequently they talk about their sexuality and project heteronormative and cisnormative assumptions onto us. It may not actually be as “out of nowhere” as it seems.

    7. Hlao-roo*

      Does your work have an LGBT+ affinity group/diversity group? If so, you can join and let people know you’re in the group because you’re pan.

      In a work environment, low-key is the way to go. You could have a small rainbow or pansexual flag at your desk. You can also correct people in the moment if they ever make comments assuming you’re straight. I can’t think of how or why this would come up in a work setting, but if it ever does you know you can respond with “Oh, I’m not straight. I’m a pansexual” or whatever wording works for you.

    8. PollyQ*

      You don’t have to, but if you feel comfortable doing so and it feels organic, then you can. And all the commenters who say that people’s sexuality shouldn’t be brought up at work are ignore the basic truth that heterosexual co-workers discuss their sexuality ALL THE TIME, either by discussing their opposite sex partners or their dating lives. There is nothing different about what you’re thinking of doing than when Gay or Lesbian colleagues come out about their sexuality, and I hope that in 2021, no one still has a problem with that. The issue isn’t that no one knows any colleagues sexual identity, it’s that it’s assumed to be straight unless otherwise stated.

      1. TulipBird*

        OP is already married, and discussing your partner if you had the same sex partner is not the same thing as randomly coming out as pansexual. It’s discussing info that’s not relevant to convos, because OP is already married.

      2. Observer*

        And all the commenters who say that people’s sexuality shouldn’t be brought up at work are ignore the basic truth that heterosexual co-workers discuss their sexuality ALL THE TIME, either by discussing their opposite sex partners or their dating lives

        That’s just not true. Several commenters have pointed explicitly that mentioning a same sex partner is not what they are talking about. Talking about what kind of people you are attracted to is a different issue. That doesn’t include just orientation, but pretty much any level of preference. Who you live with is one thing. What you do in the bedroom and what groups of people you might consider if you were available (when you’re not) are very, very different.

      3. RagingADHD*

        If the OP was talking about their spouse or their dating life, it would be normal to talk about the person or persons. That’s a social aspect of their everyday lives.

        If a straight person went around the office saying, “Oh, by the way, I want to make sure you know I’m definitely straight. That person I live with? Not my partner, that’s just a roommate. Nope, I’m not dating anyone of the opposite sex at the moment, but that’s what I’m into.”

        That would be totally inappropriate, really weird, and make everyone uncomfortable.

      4. Rusty Shackelford*

        and it feels organic

        Well, that’s the key, isn’t it? If it feels organic, absolutely say something. But don’t bring it up out of the blue.

      5. Eden*

        No one is saying OP shouldn’t discuss their spouse or dating life (which wouldn’t out her, anyway). There’s a difference between being a woman and mentioning “my wife” in convo, and saying “by the way, I am pansexual”. Some folks are saying they’d find the latter odd but I don’t see why you assume they’d object to the former.

    9. Observer*

      it feels disingenuous for my coworkers to not know that about me…but I don’t really know how or if I should tell them I’m not straight.

      Why do they need to know this about you? How does it affect your work or relationships with them?

    10. Jean*

      It’s not necessarily disingenuous for you to relate to your coworkers in a way that doesn’t explicitly involve them knowing the specifics of your sexuality. Read the room – those you feel close to personally (and are reasonably sure the feeling is mutual) would probably be receptive to having the conversation. Others might not be. This is a really individual thing, not just for you but for everyone.

    11. Pocket Mouse*

      Whether to come out is totally up to you, for you to decide based on your priorities and assessment of the situation. There can be quite a bit of benefit- greater normalization being a big one, especially if there are other queer or trans folks who would appreciate knowing they’re not *completely* surrounded by cishet people when at work.

      As others mentioned above, it would be a little weird to announce apropos of nothing, and it’s true that they don’t *need* to know. However, there are many conversations where it can come up organically, such as telling a story about a person you know (who happens to be an ex of a particular gender), talking about events or experiences related to being part of the queer community, sharing information/insights you’ve learned as a result of this aspect of your life (such as how companies/research/medical providers/what have you sometimes provide substandard or incomplete services because they don’t acknowledge the existence of people like you), talking about religious community participation experiences and choices, sharing your thoughts and experience with increased queer representation in media, etc.

      I imagine it is starting to feel a little disingenuous precisely because there are situations where you have had the opportunity to say something relevant that would out you, and so far you’ve chosen to not say those things. That’s okay! Not everyone needs to know everything about you, and it’s okay to share things about yourself if and when you’re ready, and it’s also okay to not censor this part of yourself either. When you do come out, whether at work or elsewhere, I hope you find people are receptive and supportive!

    12. LabTechNoMore*

      Being a chronically-single gay man – and visibly Muslim, which reads as straight apparently – I’ve had the same dilemma. Tears of singleness aside, I’ve relied on subtle cues to get the point across. Namely, I live in a city’s gayborhood and will often buy sparkly pink office supplies.

      Since moving is a bit extreme just to come out, and the sparkly pink palette really only works for cis gay men, a few other options include:

      > Wear an LGBT flag pin. Rainbow will get the point across that you’re queer, but people will probably just assume gay/lesbian. The pan flag may not be recognized by hetero or L/G folks, but will provoke questions about what the flag signifies, which gives a convenient means of coming out (potential con: doesn’t give you agency to come out at you’re own behest, as anyone who asks will now be privy to your sexuality whether they’re safe to come out to or not). Similarly, bedazzle your workspace with pan flag accessories if in a physical office.
      > Attend pan (/bi/omni/mspec) events in your area, which gives you an opening if someone asks about your weekend. Same goes for books and media.
      > Have a readily recognizable “I’m QUEER.” book, movie title or blog at your disposal for subtle coming out hints. You can bring it up if someone asks what you’re reading/watching/etc.
      > A more direct approach of “My ex-girlfriend [also studied llama grooming at The Llama Academy]” if there’s an organic way to bring up past exes if it resonates with the conversation. (which may promptly turn into your coming out conversation if someone in the group says, “Wait ex-girlfriend!?”)
      > Although this year’s has already passed, Bi Day of Visibility is September 23rd. Convenient holiday for coming out.

      Finally, be prepared for (and perhaps even rehearse answers to) really intrusive questions about your sexuality or really dismissive, biphobic, or even 101-type questions. Don’t get drawn into devils advocate-type series of 101 questions either trying to “disprove” your sexuality. Though if the comments here are any indication, I’m sure you’re already aware of this. Also, as I’m sure you know, biphobia comes from straights and gays alike, so be prepared.

      2. LabTechNoMore*

        (Oh, also the above is if you do chose to come out at work. Both are valid choices – no pressure either way!)

  91. wtf is a cultural interview*

    Does anyone have suggestions/resources on how to prepare for a ‘cultural interview’?

    I am on the final step of an interview process (yay!) which involves meeting with the head of people for a cultural interview. I’ve never had this before! The recruiter mentioned it was a bit more conversational but not knowing what to expect has got me on edge. Googling cultural interview is not getting me far in understanding what to expect.

    Does anyone have any experience with this sort of interview? Any thoughts or advice would be much appreciated!

    1. BlueBelle*

      A cultural interview is to see if you are good match for their organization and team. I would suggest looking at their site, if they are doing this sort of interview they probably have a whole section devoted to their corporate culture.
      They will ask about your work style, the way you manage or like to be managed, how you handle conflict- they will likely want an example, when working with a team what role to you typically take- lead/support and how do you determine which role you will take. Which of their corporate values resonates most with you and why? (you can find that on their website) They will also probably ask why you want to work for them.
      questions you can ask them- who kind of skills will complement the current team? What is likely to be the biggest challenge in this role i the first 30/60/90 days? How would you describe the management style of hiring manager?
      I hope this helps! Good luck!

    2. Kathenus*

      I know it’s hard to do this when you are really interested in getting a certain job, but remember that this is still a two-way interview for culture as well. If your style and their culture don’t mesh neither of you will be happy in the long-run. So go to it, learn what you can, be yourself, and if it’s a match for both sides great! If not, either from your perspective or theirs, better to find out now. Good luck!

  92. Anon for this*

    Hoping to get some advice for my upcoming exit interview. I’m thrilled to be leaving both this job and company, and have calculated that I don’t want to provide any sort of substantive feedback or criticism (I don’t think it would do a whit of good and am prioritizing leaving on as positive a note as I can muster). However, I am having trouble keeping my gameface on when I think ahead to how I might answer the interview questions. Does anyone have any ‘stock phrases’ for the routine exit questions that I can fall back on in this situation? For example, I’m leaving the company for ‘new challenges!’ as opposed to ‘my manager sucks and isn’t going to change, so the best thing I can do for myself is GTFO’! Thanks in advance to anyone who can offer suggestions!

    1. Rick T*

      Decline the interview flat out if you can.

      If you have to be there just respond to every question with “I have nothing to offer about that topic”, “That’s not a topic I’m willing to discuss”, or some other gray rock response

    2. Vanilla Bean*

      Not sure why you’re not providing feedback, but if you want to participate and leave on a good note without giving them any substantive feedback, I’d tell them that the opportunity just fell in your lap and you totally weren’t looking but just can’t pass it up and you’ve had such a great time working there and you’ve learned so much but you’re excited to move on to learning new things and having new opportunities but of course you’re going to miss everyone deeply.

      I’m job hunting now and that’s my plan. I want to leave a door open to return someday, because the benefits and location are good at my current employer, but they have a demonstrated history of HR resisting rehires when someone mentioned a problem in their exit interview that we haven’t fixed yet. I learned this because I just had to fight to rehire someone who left for very justifiable reasons that I’m actively working to fix without HR’s help. When I leave I’m not telling them anything.

    3. ferrina*

      Decline if you can. Vanilla Bean has good advice around deflecting- “Gosh, I’m not sure what I could offer in this interview. This opportunity fell into my lap and it was too good to pass up”

      If they demand you do an exit interview, bland and boring will help. I would avoid statements like “No comment” (it makes it would dramatic), but say extra boring things like “I’m not really sure” or “I don’t know” or “I’ve never really thought about it.”
      If you really have no poker face, deflect! Talk about the cool things at your new job.
      Q: What critiques do you have about your manager?
      A: Gosh, I don’t really know. I mean, the work can be a little boring, but that’s not Manager’s fault. I guess I’m just not that interested in studying wing velocity of sparrows. That’s why this new job is such a dream position* for me- I’m get to work with shrubberies, which I’ve been interested in since high school!”
      *I’m not saying it is a dream position, but playing the role of dreamy-eyed jobseeker can help those of us that have no poker face.
      Good luck!

  93. Decidedly Me*

    Would love some tips, tricks, or advice on handling a team member that thinks he’s doing great when he’s not. Despite being provided feedback on areas of struggle, with examples, coaching, etc., he still thinks he’s great. All issues are the fault of someone or something else – others do this too (they do not), I wasn’t trained on this (you were – more than once), training is flawed (training has been successful for others and we’ve adapted to his learning style where possible), etc. Nothing I’ve tried results in any sort of self-reflection or acknowledgement that they have any responsibility for their performance.

    I think this is just heading to things being a bad fit, but open to any ideas either specific to this case or just handling folks resistant to feedback in general.

    1. Zona the Great*

      IME, there is nothing you can say to these people that will wake them up or get them to admit their flaws. This won’t happen for him until later in life if at all. But don’t let him get away with blowing you off like that. Challenge each and every incorrect thing just like you did in parentheses so he knows you don’t buy his BS.

    2. Colette*

      Have you been really clear?
      I.e. when he says “Everyone does it”, do you respond “We’re talking about what you have done, and it needs to change. You cannot do that.”

      When he says he wasn’t trained on it, do you ask him to check his notes from the training?

      You might even want to say “I’m not looking for excuses, I want to talk about how you are going to avoid making this mistake in the future.”

      I don’t think any of these will work, but I think it’s important to be really, really clear.

    3. Vanilla Bean*

      Are you his manager? Is he on a PIP? Is he aware his job is in jeopardy? Maybe time for a “here are the areas where you’re failing, here’s what we’ve tried to do to help, we need to see X improvements by Y date (max 30 days)” and just move things along.

      You can be more than sufficiently clear and some people still won’t get it. That’s not on you.

      1. PollyQ*

        All of this. Someone who is not just struggling, but unable or unwilling to admit that he is struggling is not someone who you can keep in this position. Your goal cannot be “The scales fall from Fergus’s eyes, he realizes that he is the problem, he turns himself around, and begins performing well.” The goal is, “Have someone in this role who can perform it well.” If your company does PIPs, then it’s absolutely time for one, and if they don’t it’s time for some kind of final warning, followed by what will probably be a firing. And I wouldn’t couch this so much as “bad fit.” Being able to take in feedback and recognize the problems with your performance is an essential part of any job.

    4. Purple Cat*

      All you can do is “document” and clearly point out the “consequences” of not changing their performance.
      Make sure you are brutally clear. don’t be mean, but don’t couch and soften the feedback.
      It doesn’t sound like you’re “heading” to things being a bad fit, you’re already there :(

  94. Here we go again*

    Does anyone know about paying overtime for a commission pay job? I usually work 4 10 hour shifts a week now my boss wants me to come in for an extra day. Does my company owe me overtime since it’s more work even though I’m not paid hourly or salary?

    1. RagingADHD*

      If you’re in the US, the first thing you should do is check out the Department of Labor’s Wage and Hour Division to make sure your compensation is in fact legal, because being paid straight commission has very specific rules. Your employer may or may not have to pay overtime based on how much commission money you have received.

      Look up DOL (dot) gov, plus “commissions.”

  95. Captain Marvel*

    Anyone have any advice on navigating a situation where you had to work with someone that you don’t feel comfortable near anymore?

    I used to have a good working relationship with Bruce, he was always stressed but never unpleasant (to me anyway). A couple of weeks ago, he Hulked out at a work event where he was extremely agitated. He was yelling at people (including me), reportedly threw something (I wasn’t there for that), and overall had a really aggressive energy about him.
    I, at the time, was running on 3 hours of sleep and just calmed him down and told him not to speak to me like that ever again. Because of his Hulk incident, my boss asked me to accompany him to the rest of his meetings to “help” him so he didn’t get stressed again. At this point, I was only focused on getting through the day so I didn’t push back and powered through. I was apologized to by most members in our senior leadership (though Bruce said nothing).

    Once we came back to work, I went to HR and spoke about how uncomfortable and upset I was by his behavior. I was assured they were going to speak to him and I told them at the very least I wanted an apology. Well, I saw his name in an email and I suddenly got chills and realized that I’m a little scared to see him again.
    I’m dreading being in the same room as this guy, and we’re supposed to work on a project together. This incident really did solidify to me that I don’t want to work here anymore so I am actively job searching, but in the meantime I don’t know how to handle this.

    1. BlueBelle*

      How awful and scary. I don’t blame you for not wanting to work with him. You could circle back to HR to ask how they will ensure your safety. Have a hard and fast rule that if he begins acting out you will walk away and straight to HR. You do not have to accompany him or monitor his behavior. Your safety and notifying the powers that be of his bad behavior to make sure others are safe is all that you need to do.

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      my boss asked me to accompany him to the rest of his meetings to “help” him so he didn’t get stressed again

      NOPE. You are not Bruce’s therapist (at best) or emotional support animal (at worst). If it were me, I would mention this very specifically to HR and tell them that this was way out of line.

      1. Captain Marvel*

        The reason why I was asked was also uncomfortable. I was told we couldn’t afford to lose him so I needed to make sure he didn’t break down again. When I was asked to accompany him everywhere, I was also told he was currently crying at a bar with his boss over “personal issues” and that was the reason for his outburst.

        Honestly, that was the refrain the entire time: the way he behaved was unacceptable, but he’s dealing with personal issues.

        1. Dark Macadamia*

          This worries me for your job as well as your safety because like… if they can’t lose him, and it’s your “job” to keep him calm, who gets blamed next time he hulks out?

    3. ferrina*

      I am so sorry. This sounds really scary and awful! You’re response is really reasonable!

      Normally I’d say talk to your boss, but your boss doesn’t seem particularly reasonable (asking you to babysit a colleague so he didn’t get “stressed”? Aw hell no. I’d pull Bruce out of the work event immediately and he’d get a serious talking to).

      Is there any way that you can back out of the project with Bruce? Maybe you are too busy, or Natasha needs you to be able to help on Project X, etc? Is there any other senior managers you can enlist to help? Normally I’d say you should go to your manager and say “I can’t work with this guy after how he treated me,” but that sounds like it might not be an option (though if it is, do it!)

      If you can’t back out of the project, you can choose your meetings strategically. Conference rooms with wide windows. Having multiple others in meetings. Maybe having a junior staffer “shadow” the project so you don’t need to be alone with Brue? (and it gives you a witness if he Hulks out again).

      Finally, dig deep for your acting skills. If you need to work with Bruce, be pleasant and distant. You are focused purely on the work. Have an exit planned for interactions (you need to talk to Steve about the Teseract project; you need to prep for your presentation on the Helicarrier; you’re just really busy today). I really hate saying that, but it really helps.

      I’m glad you’re looking to leave. This is not an acceptable situation for the company to put you in. Good luck!

      1. Captain Marvel*

        Yeah, the reason I went to HR was because during our team meeting my boss made a joke about him throwing his briefcase during his outburst. That showed me that she wasn’t going to take any concerns of mine seriously.

        My teammate and I were two of the people he yelled at; she actually had to go grab me because he was demanding something she didn’t have access to. When I arrived, he was calmer but I honestly thought he was about to hit something and I hoped it wouldn’t be me. That’s part of the reason why I’m uncomfortable working with him.

    4. Observer*

      Can you go back to HR and tell them that you really have an issue working with him? If you didn’t get an apology, it makes it easier because then you can point out to them that Bruce clearly doesn’t see anything wrong with his behavior. But even if he apologized, you can say that you realized in retrospect just how bad the behavior was and you really don’t want to ever be subjected to it again, nor ever be put in the position of babysitting him so that he doesn’t flip out on others.

      I’m guessing that you are a woman – If your HR has any sense of the legalities, you might also want to point out to them that expecting a woman to smooth over a guy then baby sit him so that he doesn’t misbehave again looks a bit gender biased. And putting you in a situation where that could happen again maybe “doesn’t look so good for us”.

      1. Captain Marvel*

        I could, but at this point I’m not sure it’s going to do any good. They told me in that initial meeting that they were going to do certain steps and then follow back up with me in a set timeframe. They haven’t as of today, and now I’m really wondering if it’s still worth it because I’m looking to leave.

        I did address my being asked to step in after he yelled at me. At the time, I was told that I had the right temperament to handle him which made me bristle because why should I need a certain temperature to work with someone in a professional setting? I was told that would also be addressed with him.
        I was the only junior staff member to go to HR after the event, even though I wasn’t the only one he yelled at so it felt like I was the only one affected by it. So much for my temperament…

        1. beach read*

          It would seem to me that if nothing else, it is worth the follow up to document the whole mess. Even if you are looking to leave, there might be a point where you need to leave without having secured a new position. It might be to your advantage to be able to show unemployment exactly why you were forced to leave your job. Sorry you have to deal with this.

  96. Eden*

    Interviewing salary question! Should I bother going through an interview process when the salary sounds lower than what I’d like, specifically after talking numbers with a recruiter?

    Details:
    I had an initial phone call with a recruiter just now. It’s a software engineering role that I think is a really good fit for my experience, though the company itself I’m more neutral about. My resume has pretty much exactly what she described that they’re looking for. I took the excellent advice here and when she asked my salary expectation, I did ask her to name a range first. The midpoint she stated (157k) was somewhat less than I earn now and I’d actually like to earn more than I do now. For transparency I did say it was lower than I was looking for, she asked for a range again, and I said 180k-200k as at this point I figured there wasn’t much to lose by being honest. She said she’d pass it on to the hiring manager then went on to discuss next steps and the interview process and said they’d be in touch in a few days.

    Assuming I get the interview invite, but no one mentions salary again, should I start the interview process? Should I ask about salary again? Part of me says they heard me and would be willing to stretch if I am a good fit and another says they might be hoping they can sway me with other benefits. But benefits are good all-around in tech and I doubt they can offer me something truly special.

    I am interviewing other places so I don’t have to hang all my hopes on this role.

    1. Kathenus*

      If you get offered an interview I think it’s completely valid to ask about the salary range first – either via your recruiter or if you’re in direct contact with the hiring manager. It makes no sense to waste either of your time if their range is lower than you’re willing to accept. Definitely the right move to be thinking of this now.

    2. Eden*

      She just emailed me the benefits for 2022 which seems like another point for “hope total packe is good enough to make up for salary”

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      It’s completely reasonable to say “thanks, I appreciate your interest but the recruiter indicated your salary range was $X and that’s lower than what I’m looking for, and I don’t want to waste your time.”

    4. T. Boone Pickens*

      Since it sounds like the money is a deal breaker for you, if you get called back I’d use a phrasing such as, “Before we get deeper into the process, I wanted to circle back on salary with you. For me to make a move, I’d need to hit between $180k-$200k in salary and I don’t have any wiggle room there. Does it make sense for us to continue?” If they say they can’t match it or they state they have incredible benefits, I’d ask them to outline their benefits package on the spot or have them send over their package to review.

      It sounds like you have some other irons in the fire so based on what else you have in the hopper plus your skill marketability would shape how I answered the above question.

    5. voluptuousfire*

      I’d double-check the salary before you move forward, especially when it’s a good role but you’re neutral about the company and the benefits are similar to most tech companies. Better to find out before you start than when an offer comes around and it’s not what you want because they hope you’ll be dazzled by the company. Especially right now. IMO, if you’re a software engineer and they’re not willing to meet your salary requirements, you walk.

    6. Eden*

      Thanks for the advice all. Sounds like it’s reasonable to really confirm that my desired salary is on the table before investing any more time. So far she’s mentioned only a midpoint, not high or low, so worth asking but I won’t get my hopes up.

      I just read through the benefits that the recruiter emailed me and they’re okay, nothing special. Healthcare isn’t even covered 100%, it would be under $500 per year but shows benefits are not a big selling point compared to what I can get elsewhere. And while they give stock, it’s a pretty humdrum company, it’s solid but I don’t see exploding in value any time soon. Maybe they have a great working environment but it’s just a low salary for my geography and experience.

  97. MidwestRoads*

    I’m a legal assistant, and one of the attorneys I directly help is leaving the firm on Dec. 3. I’ve only worked for him for 2 years but we really meshed well, and I was way more upset about the news of his departure than I should’ve been..
    (There are whisperings that his departure may not be occurring under the most amicable of circumstances, and he’s been aloof, with his office door closed most of the day, since the news was circulated this past Monday.)

    I know gifts are supposed to flow downwards, but is it okay to get him an “I’ll miss working for you” gift? Something small? I know he’s a coffee addict so maybe some cool artisan roasted beans, or something for his new desk? Any thoughts are appreciated!

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      A card sincerely saying how much you’ve enjoyed working with him will mean more I suspect than a gift. I have treasured the few cards over the years I have gotten from my colleagues. However, some coffee beans (if you know he’s a big coffee drinker) are also likely to be appreciated.

      1. MidwestRoads*

        I do have some very nice personalized stationery that I was planning to use. (I also have no idea what kind of coffee he likes, or what method he uses to prepare them, or if he even owns a grinder?! SO many unknowns on the coffee thing!)

    4. Dragon*

      MidWest, I know how you feel. I did the same when I worked with an attorney who was the best boss I’ve ever had.

      It turned out we would’ve lost each other in another few months anyway, because of office goings-on I didn’t know about. So I was glad he left our firm on his terms, not theirs.

      1. MidwestRoads*

        Thanks for your comment, Dragon. He’s a super-nice guy and is very easy to work with–pretty chill on the whole, but very focused (and incredibly smart). I think he’s just being worked to death here…actually, I know he is, because I compile his monthly reports! The area of law he prefers to practice is something this firm does only sparingly, and he’s transferring to a position where that area will be his primary focus. He’s very good at it, and I know he will be happier.

        I can still be bummed he’s leaving though!

  98. Bumblebeee*

    My lovely son is autistic. I was curious to hear about other autistic people’s experiences in the workplace. It could be anything from job search and interview, meeting new coworkers, settling in, general day to day stuff etc. What were some of the highlights and challenges that presented as an autistic person?

    2. J.B.*

      I really don’t want to diagnose here, but I have a kid who might be on the spectrum and a colleague who displays similar behaviors. The best way for me to deal with the colleague is to be very direct. Unfortunately his immediate supervisor has not helped and is himself pretty condescending towards female superiors.

      Aside from social skills classes and the like that parents are encouraged to send kids to, I think some context of when to ask for an explanation and who to ask it from at work is useful. So is holding yourself in reserve and really judging whether a colleague is treating others well.

    3. Just an autistic redhead*

      Having some stocked answers for typical background/intro/small talk things can be helpful so as not to stress over them. Figuring out the most sensory-friendly you can make your workspace and anything you might want/need in order to be towards your best there long-term can be important. Doing a second pass on communication to ensure it starts very on-topic and strikes a balance between recipient time spent and clarity/accuracy (if potentially at odds) can help too.
      In interviews, I had always been polite-start and then just quite frank. It seemed to work, but I have also been very fortunate.
      If sensory challenges are involved and this is an office setting, good luck. Not meaning the good luck in a bad way, but I’ve found that stress from dealing with that over time really built up insidiously. : /
      Since there are all kinds of people, giving extra attention to interaction cues for the first bit while getting used to new people may help you pick up better in case someone doesn’t really want to chat or someone else uses humor that you’re not used to (excluding of course if something is harassment, no need to tolerate that) or something like that.
      I’m sure there’s more, but that’s all that’s occurring to me at the moment…

  99. My heart is a fish*

    Does anyone have advice for managing on-demand task switching or impromptu demands for attention when you’re in the middle of something? I’m starting to struggle with this at my job, and it’s resulting that every time I get too many asks in too short a time, I go into a complete freeze and can’t work on any of them for a period of time. It’s really starting to pose a problem for me, and I can only imagine this getting worse as my career progresses.

    For example: I might be working on a very picky teapot structure that requires my full concentration, and then an IM pops up from a teammate asking me for help with their other teapot. Normally I’m pleased to help but the IM just broke my concentration and now I’m abruptly furious about it. Or I’m trying to now help my coworker with their teapot and remember where I was with mine and now someone else wants me to answer the phone. And it’s just too much!

    1. BlueBelle*

      You need to set your teams to do not disturb for short bursts of time while you are in concentration mode. I tend to do bursts of 45 minutes of intense work, then check email and IMs to make sure nothing is urgent, take a break, whatever for 10 minutes, then another 45 minutes of intense do not disturb work. You have to find the amount of time that works for you. I would also let people know that you are managing a heavy workload by doing this so they don’t IM you, then email you, then call you all in 10 minutes.

      1. My heart is a fish*

        Unfortunately my ability to limit the requests is highly limited, as I’m in a support role and can’t turn aside people I’m tasked to support.

        The demands on my time are inflexible; I need advice on flexing to meet them instead of freezing up.

        1. Reba*

          Do you think it would be possible to set expectations with people that you will reply to IMs within (10? 30? whatever) minutes? Then you would have time to get to a stopping point with the intricate tasks. Personally I need a moment to transition and “come up for air” — I literally can’t hear what someone is saying to me until I pull my attention off my document, for example… and I might say “sure go ahead” before my brain has actually caught up and then I don’t listen! :/

          The other thing I would suggest is to make up for yourself some mental markers that will make it easier to transition *back* into work when the interrupting task is done. Whether that’s a list/note, a physical or digital flag in a document. The equivalent of a stitch marker or “lifeline” in knitting. Hopefully making it easier to get back into it will reduce the frustration!

          I wonder if you there are any patterns about when there tend to be more or fewer requests?

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          You can’t turn them aside, but are you expected to respond *immediately?* Could you, for example, designate the last 15 minutes of every hour as “check email and IM time?”

        3. Pikachu*

          We had this issue, and the solution was that support requests would only be accepted if they were submitted via a ticketing system. IMs and other off-the-cuff requests wouldn’t be addressed.

          You can set up all kinds of parameters to send requests to the right people and allow them to put in a priority level. You’ll still get interrupted by emails but if you can see the priority and nature of the request in the subject, you can opt to ignore until later if it’s not urgent.

          I find that being able to make a quick judgment call on whether it’s important in the moment interrupts my flow less than reading an actual request, because it’s hard to not immediately start thinking of how to solve it.

          You also get the added perk of always having a paper trail.

    2. LizB*

      Ugh, I have some of this on busy days at my job and it’s exhausting! This will depend a lot on the nature of the tasks and the structure of your workplace, but some ideas that could work:

      – Use pen-and-paper notetaking to jot down your stopping place real fast. When it’s my turn to answer phones, I keep a notebook open so I can write down phrases/details as the caller is talking, because I often have to take messages and IM my coworkers so they can call the person back. If I’ve taken good enough notes on Caller A’s call, even if the phone rings again while I’m in the middle of my IM, I can answer and get back to writing up the IM about Caller A after I finish with Caller B.

      – Get really, really crystal clear on what tasks to prioritize. Is your coworker’s teapot automatically more important than your own? Does a phone call beat a teapot (so you can tell your first coworker, “Sorry, phone ringing, back in a minute!”) or does a teapot beat a phone call (so you can tell your second coworker, “I can call them back at X time after I finish with this teapot)? Make sure you know the hierarchy of tasks and, crucially, that your coworkers do too.

      – It is likely okay in some cases to respond, “I see this request and will be able to get to it in X minutes!” And X minutes can be the amount of time you need to go for a walk to the drinking fountain and back, sit with your eyes closed and breathe deeply for thirty seconds, look at a cute picture of your pet, grab a piece of candy out of the candy jar, stand up and touch your toes, or whatever helps you reset your brain and shake off your irritation. It’s normal to need a bit of a transition between tasks, and if you can pick something to do deliberately to create that transition, it can ease the process.

      1. RagingADHD*

        These are great suggestions. I especially want to emphasize that it is a known thing that interruptions cause a slowdown in returning to concentration. This isn’t you. It is a cost of doing business this way.

        I would offer that if you frequently find yourself in situations where an interruption causes you to completely forget what you were doing and wander off to a new task, only to be surprised later on that the original task is still not finished, that’s the territory where you might want to talk to someone about issues with working memory or possibly executive function.

        I just wanted to put that out there because I didn’t realize for years that my working-memory deficits were a symptom. It’s normal to be frustrated by interruptions and have trouble getting back into the groove of what you were doing. It’s not normal for every interruption to turn you into the main character of Memento.

        1. allathian*

          Yeah. I don’t have any disorders that affect executive functions, but after almost burning out a few years ago, I know I need to start taking better care of myself when I find that my working memory becomes a sieve. It can happen to anyone if they’re stressed or exhausted, or both.

          1. RagingADHD*

            True. In many things, the way a NT brain behaves under stress or fatigue is the way a ND brain behaves at baseline.

  100. Bibbidi Bobbidi Boo*

    Will my boss be annoyed if other members of the team “borrow” me to do work? I’m an intern, hence a source of cheap labour, so quite a few people (my boss’s colleagues and grandboss) have been using me for tasks (especially complicated ones with ridiculous deadlines).

    Also, on the flip side, will he be irritated at me if I do extra work for another team (which I’d otherwise never get a chance to be in for many years, as they don’t hire people without PhDs)? I’ve been doing so much overtime on account of all of these extra tasks, so it would be outside my working hours anyway. (Yes – I have a proper role apart from general dogsbody).

    Fun examples include (context changed):

    – Fergusella! I need you to email all the llama owners in the country about missing rabies passports! Stat!
    – Fergusella, if you could send out all the calendar invites for the annual llama conference, I’d really appreciate it.
    – Hey Fergusella, what do you think we could do for the llama deworming problem? Would you like to make an infographic of all the main parasites?
    – If you have time, please could you write all this custom code for Llama Website Task for me by tomorrow evening? Of course, this isn’t compulsory, and I don’t want to create extra work, but if you don’t do this, I’m screwed and the important meeting will fail, as I was counting on you and there isn’t time for someone else to start from scratch. I would be eternally grateful if you did this and I’d put a great word in with your boss. (Grandboss – I had done a similar project before (which he knew about), so I was the expert on this specific niche task).

    1. JustMyImagination*

      I’d definitely be keeping your manager in the loop. She needs to be aware of other tasks you’re working on in case there starts to be an impact to your main duties, she can keep an eye out for burnout or for other people taking advantage of you and, if your salary is directly tied to her budget then she needs to know about all of this overtime so she’s not surprised by it and can make sure it’s billed to the right cost center.

      1. ferrina*

        Absolutely this.

        Ask your manager outright- “Recently I’ve been getting a lot of requests to help with various projects. These requests can come from almost anyone, from Grandboss to the Coffee Pot Team. I’m happy to help*, but I just wanted to check with you that this is how I should be spending my time, especially since I’ve been doing so much overtime on this.”
        *If there’s something you don’t feel comfortable doing, you can flag that for your boss too.

  101. Can't Sit Still*

    I started using mobility aids during the pandemic, and have finally received my Trionic walker, which is amazing! However, every single person in the office feels the need to comment on it. I need a better script, I think, because I’ve been telling people it’s an improvement to my quality of life, which I don’t mind sharing. But I’m tired of talking about it a dozen times a day and having people ask if I’ll get “better”. This IS better. I can walk without falling down! I have more stamina and can be more active! It’s great! I do want to acknowledge the improvement in my quality of life, because I was very resistant to using mobility aids and I regret waiting so long. I wouldn’t have suffered so many fall injuries if I had been using them all along.

    On the bright side (LOL), it’s distracted most folks from my weight loss, which was due to a med change.

    1. LizB*

      Congrats on the big quality of life improvement and boo to your nosy coworkers. I think it’d be totally legit to say something like, “Actually, now that I’m using the walker, I’m feeling way better! My condition is chronic and will never go away, but I have so much more energy now that I use it most of the time.” If you can strike the right cheerful/upbeat tone, hopefully most people will get the point and shut up about your mobility equipment.

    2. PollyQ*

      How would you feel about sending out a group email that answers the basic questions and gently requests that people quit asking you about it? Alternatively, you can just wait it out and assume that once it’s not new anymore, people will stop feeling the need to comment. Congrats on the improvement to your quality of life!

    3. ferrina*

      Congrats! Hopefully these comments will go away on their own once the novelty wears off. For now though, I’d go simple/short then immediate subject change. I’d go for a bored tone, like “yep, this is normal now, are we over it yet?”

      “Yeah, I’m loving it. Hey, I’ve been meaning to ask you about the Crocheted Tree Hat project. Can you tell me about that?”
      “It’s great, but honestly I’m a bit bored of talking about it. I’d actually love to hear more about how you’re doing- did I hear that you joined a competitive Sourdough Bread Team?”
      “How long will I need it? This is a permanent addition to my life. It’s perfect for me. Speaking of perfect, what’s this I hear about a new coffee machine in the breakroom?”

      For persistent offenders- “I’ve been talking about this so much recently, I need a break. Let’s talk about something else. [Subject change]”
      Then: “Hey, I told you I wanted to talk about something other than my medical condition, thanks. I’m not going to answer any more questions about it. How about [subject change]?
      Finally: “It’s really weird that you keep wanting to talk about my medical condition. Stop.” (and report to HR)

  102. SoonToBeExHRperson*

    What career options exist after human resources? The last 2 years have been absolutely brutal and I want out. What careers can you take that leverage the suite of knowledge a senior HR person has that does not involve working with people all day?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I am in a nonprofit-wear-many-hats role that is HR/Operations/IT/Admin – I think operations would be a fairly easy transition. A lot of the same high-level policy&procedure minded thinking with less people.

    2. CW*

      Was your company a toxic environment? If so, then maybe what you experienced was the exception, not the norm. Or were employees rude to you?

    3. HRIS*

      HRIS might be an option? Your knowledge of HR practices would be very helpful but day-to-day would be mainly working on systems/tickets, not herding cats and taking complaints.

  103. Dragon*

    Hi, everyone. First time posting in the Weekend Open Thread.

    At the initial interview for a position, the interviewer tells you the current employee isn’t working out, and they’re lining up the replacement before firing the employee.

    Do you consider that enough reason by itself not to consider the job/employer further?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Nope, not at all. They’re being a little more transparent than usual, but that statement on it’s own wouldn’t dissuade me in the slightest.

      Now if they gave you that person’s name, and a complete rundown of their indiscretions, I might think differently – at least about the interviewer.

    2. PollyQ*

      Ehhh, on the one hand, it sounds like an honest, transparent answer to the question “Why is job open?” and anything else would be a lie. But OTOH, it feels a little wrong to me to be giving out that kind of information about a specific employee. And they have no way of knowing if you might know that person, so there’s taking the risk that the employee finds out through the rumor mill first. Probably the best solution would be to let the employee know that it isn’t working out, and let them stay on, say, for a month, while both parties are job-hunting.

      But to answer your specific question, I don’t know that I’d remove myself from consideration altogether, but I would note this as a data point about how the employer thinks/acts.

      1. ferrina*

        I agree with PollyQ. This feels a little icky, particularly the “lining up replacement before firing the person.” That’s… ugh. Like does the person even know they’re about to be fired?

        I’d consider this a Yellow Flag. Enough that I’d have my eyes open and be asking myself if this is the right place for me. But if this is the only weird thing and everything else is great, I’d keep moving forward.

        Oh, and read the Glassdoor reviews (if you haven’t already)

    3. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I’ve been in your chair before. It didn’t sit great with me, either.

      However, I did and would keep listening. If you walk away, the employee isn’t going to keep their job; it’ll just be someone else new in the role.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Not necessarily. I had this happen two different ways.

      One time they actually advertised the job as someone’s assistant but during the interview revealed that they wouldn’t let me train with her or work the same schedule, because the boss was going to have me replace her as soon as he was satisfied I could do the job.

      Bad situation, shoulda walked away. Turns out the incumbent was really good at the job, the boss was just trying to get someone cheaper.

      The other time, there were longstanding personality/work style clashes between the incumbent and the manager, and the incumbent was actually being moved to a different team rather than let go. That one worked out fine and everyone wound up much happier.

      Even if the incumbent were going to be fired, I’d be okay with it if the situation were closer to the second situation than the first. It was the sneaking around that should have tipped me off.

    5. Purple Cat*

      Oof, definitely feels a little icky. But +1 to the company for honesty.
      I had to let an employee go and we didn’t post the job until they had been terminated. I assume this employee is on a PIP and it’s disingenuous to act for sure that they aren’t going to turn things around (even when you KNOW that’s the case).
      I for sure would want to dig in further as to WHY they weren’t working out to gauge if it was technical skills, interpersonal issues, bad manager….

  104. Anonymously Jaded*

    I was part of an early Covid layoff in 2020 and was lucky in that I landed a new role that I was super excited about quickly. Now a year later, I hate it. For so many reasons, but at professional development event this week, it became obvious that part of what I hate is the BS that just seems to permeate the whole field. I want to shift back to what I was doing, but that would likely require moving, which I’m not sure is right for my family just now. I could make another shift to another new industry, but I’m nervous about being burned again. I know the answer is just to start job hunting, but I’ve never seriously conducted a search while employed before so I feel a little lost there. Do I search for jobs each night, a couple of times a week, once a week? I just know that I’m burnt out already and while I’m putting some changes in place, they will be slow to take effect and… They won’t really change the fact that my job description wasn’t really accurate and I don’t like what I do. So I know I have to move on, but I’m just feeling lost and a little hopeless because of how excited I was for this role and how quickly it has morphed into a job I hate.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I have only ever job hunted while working full time, so here’s my system. I suspect you will need to develop your own. First thing I have done is ID where I want to look for jobs. Then I set up email alerts to my personal email (if I can) when those places add jobs I might be interested in. If that’s not possible, I set aside time each week after work to check the 3 to 5 places I have ID’d as likely job listing locations, generally specialized to my field or location. Also, sometimes based on state. If I see a job I am interested in, I save the webpage as a file on my computer (because sometimes these pages get taken down or disappear and I forget which job is which).

      I try to set aside time in the evenings after work to apply for the jobs I’ve saved. How much time per week depends on the closing dates of the jobs, though I do try to apply as early as I can. I have a spreadsheet where I list the title of the job, organization, closing date and date I applied. Each position gets a folder which contains the cover letter, resume, and add I used for that position. If I get an interview than anything related to that job goes into that folder. Plus, I find it much faster to apply if I keep a master set of files with cover letter “pieces” I can slot into cover letters as needed.

      This is my system, which I suspect is informed a bit by being a librarian and the types of jobs I apply for. I hope it helps you some.

    2. ferrina*

      Last year I was job hunting while working full time, burned out and with two small children. I’ve got you covered!

      The answer is- whatever frequency keeps you moving forward.

      Another Librarian has a great process outlined. I had a really similar system, but at a frequency that worked better for my life. Here was what I did:
      Sunday: 2 hours looking at postings and picking 2-4 that I was going to apply to that week.
      Monday: Apply to Posting 1
      Wednesday: Apply to Posting 2
      Every other day: other Life Stuff. If I had energy to apply to another posting, great. If not, then I didn’t force myself.

      I did the same spreadsheet/folder system as Another Librarian, and highly recommend it. Always keep a copy of the original job description in the folder (I copied it into a Word doc) as well as the CL and resume you used.
      I also recommend having a Master Resume that is 4-6 pages long and has all the jobs and accomplishments ever. Then just remove what you don’t need for each job posting.

      My big tip is to be thoughtful in what you apply to. If you have limited time to apply, be smart about what really matches your skillset and goals. A colleague and I were searching at the same time- she went for quantity and minimal customization, I applied to much fewer jobs but was more selective about what I applied to and had customization down to a science. I had a slightly higher interview rate than she did, and I landed a new job before she did.

      Good luck!

  105. Daydreamer*

    So I know the answer is (c) but I still wanted to hear what people thought about this one.

    My ‘dream job’ for sometime now has involved working at a large industry-leading company in my sector. However, I have recently discover that three of my former workplace nemeses* work there. The problem with this scenario is:

    a) I’ve fallen into the trap of believing this is a ‘dream job’ and forgotten there is no such thing. The fact that this company employs not one, not two but three people that I’d really rather never work with again is a red flag. It’s time to accept that I’ve probably built this place up into something it’s not and move on.

    b) I need to go and eat some humble pie because not one, not two, but three people I clashed with have managed to achieve something I can only dream of . I need to reassess the skills and traits I actually think are important in this industry and readjust accordingly. I am not as good as I have built myself up to believe.

    c) Something between (a) and (b)

    * If it sways the answer at all, workplace nemeses is probably a bit strong for two of them, Archie and Betty. When I worked with each of them, there was some office politics at play and we ended up on different sides of the divide. Particularly with Archie, if we would work better together in different circumstances.

    It’s a different story with Veronica. Again, there was office politics at play but her reaction was to behave in a way which I can only assume was to try to sabotage me (think going to our mutual boss to tell him the reason she hadn’t followed a brief was because I’d not shared it with her when I had or doing a cc-all email to criticise one of my decisions). To my deepest regret, I eventually took the bait and had a very embarrassing flip out moment (I don’t think I yelled at her and I did apologise within a few hours of it happening, but I definitely raised my voice and said some things I still cringe about today). If Veronica were to suddenly decide she wanted to come work at my company, it wouldn’t be enough for me to quit on the spot but I would be job searching!

    1. PollyQ*

      I think there’s a case that it’s (a) only. The fact that these 3 problematic people are succeeding at this company may be just more evidence that it’s not your Dream Job™. However, having such strong clashes with 3 different people may mean that you need to learn to play better with colleagues, even when there are disagreements. So, that might go under the (b) heading, although I don’t know that it necessarily means you need a vast, sweeping re-evaluation of skills & traits or that you’re not as good as you think. You seem to be falling prey to some all-0r-nothing thinking. Concepts like dream job, nemeses, treating one job as representative of the industry, quitting on the spot are kind of a lot, reassessing all your skills & traits are all “big”, if you know what I mean. You may find it helpful to get more comfortable with gray areas in life and trying to have smaller reactions and make smaller changes. Good luck!

      1. Daydreamer*

        I will admit that my question seems to have had a lot of ‘sense of humour failure’, for which I apologise. I suppose a better way of phrasing it is ‘on the scale between hyperbolic extreme one and hyperbolic extreme two, where do you think this situation sits’? As said below, I would probably more accurately describe Archie, Betty and Veronica as ‘people I do not get along with and, given the option, would not choose to work with’. I would also more accurately describe ‘dream company’ as one of about ten I think looks like a really good place to work. And there’s nobody I would quit on the spot over – being told I would be working closely with Veronica again would prompt me to start actively job searching, but I wouldn’t be running to my boss going ‘it’s her or me!’ or anything like that.

        That being said, I think you have summarised my thinking quite nicely. I think the fact that there are three people who I’ve previously had strong clashes with (and, as I said below, oddly the only three people I’ve previously had strong clashes with) is perhaps a signal that this company has a culture that isn’t right for me or rewards behaviour that I don’t value. I think others have pointed out below that it’s not a given that it does – it could, in fact, be that this company has a culture which brings out better traits in people plus the company is a large one so they probably employ a whole range of personalities – but I think going forward I would be on the careful look out for other signs that perhaps I would not be the right fit for this company.

        But equally I think the fact that there are three people strong clashes with indicates there is something I need to work on with my relationship with colleagues or how I handle certain situations. For what it’s worth, it’s been a while since I have worked with all three of them and I’m definitely a calmer person than I was.

    2. ecnaseener*

      I don’t know if I’d say it’s a red flag about the company that they hired those three / haven’t fired them yet. You said yourself Archie and Betty were mainly problematic because of office politics — maybe this company has a better culture, so A&B are behaving just fine. Even with Veronica, she could’ve had a change of heart / worked through her issues — or maybe she’s still terrible and is on her final warning now before getting fired. (Or yes, maybe all three are being freely allowed to continue their bad behavior! You just don’t know.)

      But if the idea of working at the same company as them is that repellent, then yeah this isn’t your dream job while they’re working there! Your dream job is free of people whose mere presence will stress you out.

      1. Daydreamer*

        I hadn’t thought about it being a better culture – that’s a good point! With Archie, I think the clash was very much a situational thing specific to the job roles we held being in direct competition with each other. But with Betty the situation was quite a toxic setup and I was under the impression she was quite (if not, very) miserable in her role.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I think you’re getting hung up on (b).

      If your nemeses have accomplished something ‘you can only dream of’, then maybe the reason they accomplished that thing is the same reason that they are nemeses — they play office politics ruthlessly.

      Is that the kind of person you aspire to be?

      1. ferrina*

        Interesting! I read this as either Archie/Betty/Veronica all play politics ruthlessly, or that Daydreamer does! Unless that was a really high-drama work setting (very possible), I went with the common denominator.

      2. Daydreamer*

        I mean, I don’t know if I’d describe them as ruthless office politics players. What I would say is that all three of them bring out an ugly hypercompetitive side of me that I don’t like – I don’t know exactly how much of this is reflective of them, how much is a sign of I’ve taken things too personally and how much of this was linked to the situation (I suspect the answer is it’s a mixture of the three!).

    4. AnotherLibrarian*

      Like PollyQ, I think you are falling into all or nothing thinking. I’m also concerned that you are describing coworkers as nemeses even in jest. I’ve never had a nemesis at work, only people I didn’t gel with. I don’t think this means to you need to reevaluate “your life” but you may need to think about how you define office politics. It sounds like you are taking all this very personally and I am not sure it is meant to be. I also think the whole idea of a “dream job” is fundamentally flawed. Maybe some times with a therapist might help you work through some of this black and white thinking.

      I’d also take what ecnaseener said to heart. Depending on the size, years that have passed, personal issues that have been worked through, a million other things, it is totally possible that this isn’t a red flag at all. Sometimes people change. I’ve had awful coworkers who ended up flourishing in another role. You just have no way of knowing.

      1. Daydreamer*

        Apologies – I am clearly having a sense of humour failure. They are all more accurately described as ‘people I didn’t gel with’. It’s only really Veronica I’d be very reluctant to work with again because I’m genuinely not sure how much of it was ‘this situation brings out the worst in me’ and how much of it was ‘Veronica brings out the worst in me’.

        While I’m not exactly keen at the prospect of being teamed up with Archie or Betty again, I am aware with both there were situational things going on and, given a different setup, things could be fine (and, like ecnaseener pointed out, there is an option (d) I hadn’t thought of – that the fact that three people who I had observed being ‘not their best self’ in situations I acknowledge as not being ideal might indicate that ‘dream company’ actually has a very healthy culture).

    5. ferrina*

      Well internet strange, you did ask….usual caveats that I’m going purely off a very, very short snippet into your life and there’s a lot of nuance/context I can’t possibly know…

      B. I find it odd that you have multiple workplace “nemeses”. That’s a really strong word, especially when you admit that two of them are probably fine. There’s also a lot of politics in play, that you seem to participate in a very cutthroat way (see: nemeses). I’ve played my share of politics, and I’ve made a few enemies, but generally the two didn’t actually overlap. Politics was about pushing my agenda, not bringing others down. I’ve gained more advocates than enemies through my political games (I’m a low-drama and highly effective).

      Oh, and I don’t like loaded questions.

      That said- how big is the company? If it’s small, this does say something about the culture. If it’s large, well, then it’s likely more about workforce needs. Assuming you have a similar background to Archie/Betty/Veronica, have you applied? What was the result? If you never got a screening call, I’d look at your resume/CL and revamp it. If you got to the interview but never an offer, it’s worth entertaining that this might not be a cultural fit. You don’t say how Archie or Betty might feel about you, but that’s worth considering too.

      1. Daydreamer*

        Again, apologies for the clear sense of humour failure – I did not mean it in a ‘I wish the worst upon them’ way and was being melodramatic for effect. It has clearly not worked – good job I’m not in stand-up, I guess! They are, as said above, ‘people I didn’t get along with’.

        But, for what it’s worth, I do genuinely think the answer is c and not a. After all, the common denominator in all three relationships is me and there’s no getting away from that fact! It’s a fair point from others that perhaps I have taken things oddly personally (especially with Archie, where the clash was very much about my role being in competition with his – speaking of what Archie and Betty probably think of me, I imagine they don’t actually care that much, which is a lesson I could take from them as they are clearly much better off for just getting on with things). I am also perhaps being oddly competitive about this in a way that isn’t healthy – I say I meant nemeses as a joke but perhaps there is something behind my word choice that I need to reflect on.

        Interesting point on advocates vs enemies though – part of why I think I’m even thinking to ask about this is that these are the only three people who I would say I am not keen to work with again and they’ve all ended up at the same place. But, to answer another question, it is a very big company so perhaps I’ve read way more into that than is necessary – and Betty and Veronica now both work in different ‘niches’ of the industry anyway so it’s unlikely I’d ever have to work closely with them again.

  106. Daisy Avalin*

    Update on my co-irker’s ‘Naughty Secret Santa’ sign-up sheet from last week:

    I saw her on Sunday morning (she takes over from me – I’m night shift, she does mornings) and while I was doing hand over/getting ready to leave, I pointedly checked the board where messages like this to all staff are posted. She bought into it, and asked me whether I was going to sign up for the Naughty Secret Santa. I said “No, that’s inappropriate.” to which she countered with “You could bring something like you usually do (hand cream sets and such)”. I said I didn’t want to receive anything naughty either, it’s inappropriate for work.
    Anyway, after a few rounds of her attempting to find some loophole, and me repeating that the base idea was inappropriate for work, she eventually said “Well, I suppose you’re not the only one who feels like that.*”, and has changed it back to the normal Secret Santa that we have had in previous years!

    *Ya think? That would be why the only other name on the list under ‘Naughty’ was the very sweet but quite work-naive 21yo new girl, for whom this is basically a first job! And the manager, who got talked into it by Co-irker, as I found out Monday morning, when Co-irker told Manager she’d changed the rules! Manager did agree when I pointed out that another coworker who’s just lost her husband would definitely not be up for a Naughty Secret Santa this year, if at all.

    So, problem solved, and hopefully we don’t have to go through this again next year! At least I have the right wording to use, now!

    1. ecnaseener*

      As difficult as she was about it, sounds like a good ending – she did back down and you’ve saved your office from a horribly embarrassing event!

    4. All het up about it*

      I missed the thread where you originally shared this. So I am simultaneously horrified and relieved. Good job!

  107. JoAnna*

    I have an interview on Monday for a contract position (freelance writer). I’ve only ever been a W2 employee (but I am looking to move into a position with more flexibility and that is permanently remote).

    The pay is advertised as $20-25/hour, which seems awfully low for a contract position. Am I off base on that? I thought that the salary for a contract position was supposed to be higher because you’re not getting benefits.

    Also how does hourly pay work when you are a contractor? Do you just submit an invoice for number of hours worked every week? Can you contract for X number of hours or is it more a per-project thing?

    1. Alexis Rosay*

      Yes, that sounds low for a freelance position, but it depends greatly on the industry, so I’d suggest asking around to find out if it’s normal for what you’re doing.

      It’s important to understand the terms of pay clearly, because there are no set norms. You should ask your supervisor how often to invoice, what the cap on hours per project is, and so on. I’ve done freelance projects where I was paid a flat rate and how much I worked on the project was completely up to me, and also freelance projects where I could bill hourly up to a maximum number of hours.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      When we’ve hired someone for hourly contract pay, it’s always $X per hour up to Y hours. Our people invoice at the end of a project, but they aren’t long-term projects. And yes, that does sound low, but luckily writing isn’t a skill, and since absolutely anyone can write, there’s no reason to pay a lot for it. (Is my sarcasm showing?)

    3. RagingADHD*

      That is low but not uncommon for freelancers starting out. If you have prior experience in writing professionally, you should be able to move that up quickly on future contracts.

      There’s a wide range of structures for freelance contracts. Some are flat fee by project, paid in milestones. Some are for a certain amount of content per week or per month. Some are hourly. Some are on retainer that includes as certain number of hours, with a provision to bill more if the hours exceed the cap.

      Definitely ask in the interview what the anticipated hours are like and how much content they expect. I wish when I was starting that I’d done hourly contracts because I had no idea how long things took, and seriously underbid myself on flat-fee projects.

    4. PollyQ*

      You’re right that because of lack of benefits, lack of long-term security, and the requirement for the freelancer to pay “both halves” of payroll taxes, the per-hour rate should be much higher, generally at least 2x as much, for a freelancer as for a W2 employee. So, if they’re paying you $20/hour, then it’s the equivalent of $10/hour W2, which is less than legal minimum wage in some places and less than de facto minimum wage in many more.

      On the flip side, that may be market rate for freelance writing, with so many place paying peanuts (~$50) for something like a blog post, or offering no pay beyond “exposure.” Do you know anyone who’s doing the same kind of work, or have any way to check out what that kind of job generally pays?

  108. Rick T*

    Those numbers seem pretty low. I’m pretty sure as a contractor you pay both sides of SSI and Medicare, or 15.3% off the top so your effective rates are $17 – $21.25 per hour. Look at your current effective hourly rate, add in the 7.45% extra SSI/Medicare taxes, then factor in not consistently working 40 hours per week to see what your contract rate should be.

    Time reporting and the pay process should be part of the consulting/services contract but as a freelance writer you might be paid by the article or by the word.

  109. Elle Woods*

    I had a phone interview this week with a recruiter. The job is a hybrid one and I would be expected to be in the office 2-3 days per week.

    The recruiter became very concerned because I currently live about 50 miles from the company’s headquarters, which according to her, puts me 10 miles outside of what the company considers “commutable distance.” I assured her I do not have a problem with the commute (either time or distance; I also have a very reliable car) and that I will be moving closer to the company’s headquarters in the next few months. (Husband and I are living with my parents temporarily while building a house.) The recruiter told me that may be so but company policy dictates I must live within 40 miles of headquarters and therefore, I’ve been rejected for the role.

    Has anyone else dealt with this situation before or have advice on addressing this objection? The job was for a communications role and the company is not a medically-related one; my commute would be about an hour each way. (I know that certain jobs–like doctors–can and do dictate how far one can live from the medical facility.)

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I have seen this situation, but I don’t have advice for addressing it. Depending on the type of work, you can have limits based on which County you live in or which City Limits. I think you might be able to write a single email back, explaining that you are moving closer (will that put you in the 40 mins?) and the dates of that move and see if they’ll bend, but they may not, especially if they have a large pool.

      1. Elle Woods*

        I brought it up in the interview that I’d be moving to a new house next spring and would then be about 20 miles or so from the headquarters. Reflecting on the interview, there were some very yellow flags raised so being rejected because I live too far away is a blessing in disguise.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Would you be within the 40 mile limit when you move into your new house? If so, I’d let the recruiter know that on X date, you will only be Y miles from headquarters. If not, I think I’d drop it.

      1. Elle Woods*

        I will be within the 40-mile limit when I move; I let the recruiter know that during the interview. After reflecting on the things some, there were some yellow flags about the company that give me pause so being rejected because of the distance issue is a blessing in disguise.

    3. PollyQ*

      OTOH, it’s an understandable concern, but OTOH, I think they’re being unreasonably rigid by having such a hard-and-fast rule and not taking into account that you’re planning to move in the near future. And if they’re this rigid about this, there’s every likelihood that they’d be equally unreasonable about other things. Given what you’ve been told to date, I doubt you’d have much luck pushing back, and unless the job is somehow extra-special or otherwise rare, I wouldn’t bother trying.

      1. Elle Woods*

        I can definitely see why it could be an understandable concern. I’ve decided not to push back on things. There were some yellow flags raised during the interview that lead me to believe this job and employer aren’t a good fit for me.

  110. AutolycusinExile*

    How do you format your employer’s subsidiary information on a resume? I have an internship with a company which used to be its own (fairly large) stand-alone entity but was acquired several years ago by an even larger international corporation expanding into the market. They didn’t rebrand and frankly operations don’t sound like they changed at all after the acquisition, so everyone still refers to them by the old name, XYZ. In email signatures, however, we are now referred to as a “XYZ, a NewCorp Company” and NewCorp refers to us as a subsidiary on their website (still using the old XYZ name). Their operations are overseas and I’ve never spoken to NewCorp employees though our upper-level management does work with them. We have autonomous HR, hiring, etc.
    …I don’t know what to do with this. Do you need to include subsidiary info on a resume? Is it wrong to only mention XYZ? Should I specify that I work for both XYZ and NewCorp every time? It looks weird to just recycle their “XYZ, A NewCorp Company” phrase, but I can’t decide if there’s a better alternative.

    Compounding my confusion is the fact that Company XYZ uses what they call a ‘temp agency’ to handle contractors and part time workers, including interns. The ‘temp agency’ formally refers to themselves as an MSP (managed service provider, apparently specializing in “labor management and resourcing” whatever that means) Is this really just a fancy term for temp agency, or is this something different?

    For context, the MSP has no oversight over me at all but I do report my hours to them, they pay me, and they administer my benefits. That being said, I applied to and interviewed with Company XYZ directly, the HR in Company XYZ is who sent me the offer letter, and they handled my onboarding themselves too. I have literally never applied with or reported to anyone with the MSP in any way; it honestly feels more like Company ABC is contracting out their payroll to them than it feels like a true temp agency relationship. Would it be disingenuous to skip the name of the MSP and just list my employer as above?

    1. AutolycusinExile*

      *That last ABC should be Company XYZ, sorry!

      And before anyone mentions it, since this is an internship and it’s normally decent advice otherwise – I *have* already asked a couple different managers at Company XYZ, but they couldn’t help me. Yes, it’s an internship, someone there should be able to give me advice… but it’s a weird situation, my department doesn’t usually have interns, and my role is unusually autonomous anyway, so I got nowhere asking my employer. I didn’t even have a formal job title before they asked me to make one up myself to satisfy their email signature requirements!

    2. Ali G*

      You definitely do not need to do anything with the MSP. That’s inside baseball stuff that isn’t pertinent to your job duties.
      For your other question, you might need to do something like: Company XYZ, (A NewCorp Company), and then just call it Company XYZ after that.
      Really it doesn’t matter if you don’t get it perfect, as long as you aren’t mis-representing your employer. Like if NewCorp was a really flashy place to work and no one has heard of XYZ and you made it look like you worked directly for NewCorp.
      Good luck!

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      So, it sounds like you didn’t work for MSP, it sounds like you worked for XYZ, therefore I would probably be okay leaving them off. A lot of companies use management companies to handle payroll and benefits, but you don’t work for them. They can’t fire you, I assume. If you worked primarily for NewCorp I think it needs to be the primary part of your resume line.

      On you resume, I would like do something like this:

      XYZ , Subsidiary of NewCorp, DATES
      DATES, XYZ, a NewCorp Company (I would use this on your Resume, but in your cover letter, just use XYZ)

      Good luck!

  111. OyHiOh*

    Good news post!

    I’ve been tooling along on a very part time (grant funding that limits me to a number under 20 hrs/wk) for the past year, enjoying what I’m doing, adding knowledge and new skills to my repertoire, and quietly low key job hunting because I like what I do but am mentally ready for a real, grown up, full time job.

    This week, my boss informed me that at the end of the month (thanks to pretty big grants our org is receiving) I’m going to full time salary, with benefits. Not only, but we’re also hiring two more full time employees in the next couple weeks, and another two beginning of the year. So I moved offices today, to a space that’s going to make way more sense for all the people who will be working here. Best part of all this, I finally, finally got permission to clear a stack of out of date/unused electronics. I’m waiting on the recycler to show up right now. It’s basically an electronic Godzilla out there in the hall right now. And I’m indefinitely suspending the low key but active job search for browsing through the job sites once a week or so.

    1. Camelid coordinator*

      Congratulations on the expanded position, that is great news!!! I’ve been slowly going through a couple decades of paper files (most of which I had something to do with) in my office, and this week I went through several boxes. It was so nice to add two whole boxes of paper to the to-be-shredded pile.

  112. Rusty Shackelford*

    I see Johnson & Johnson is splitting into two companies. I wonder if they’ll both be called Johnson.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Haha, that would be great!

      A friend and I bemoaned the lost opportunity when Penguin and Random House merged. We thought they should go for Random Penguin House, but alas they chose Penguin Random House.

      1. Lore*

        I work there and internally we were all hoping for just Random Penguin but no luck. (We also lost on begging for the combined logo to be the Random House house with a little Penguin waving in the door but the intranet is called Igloo so at least one bad joke made into the real world.)

    1. Camelid coordinator*

      Libraries often have access to LinkedIn learning/lynda.com, I’ve heard good things about the Excel training.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      I bet you could just google “excel tutorials” and find a whole bunch of free options. Anytime I’ve ever needed excel help I’ve been able to find lots of free examples online in various blog posts and youtube videos.

      In fact I just googled it myself and the first video example that came up was a 2.5 hour long full excel for beginners course, so that would probably be a great (and free!) place to start.

      1. school of hard knowcs*

        Thanks its for a co-worker who has no excel skills. I can stop and give him tips, he just needs how to copy and paste and very simple things

    3. Lady Alys*

      There is a YouTube channel called “ExcelIsFun” with many different levels of courses – basics, Excel for accounting, data crunching, and so on. He goes all on on keyboard shortcuts so you learn to be an efficient Excel user, too!

    4. Jigglypuff*

      I found this series of Excel classes on Coursera by Macquarie University to be a super helpful A-Z breakdown of all the important stuff. You can click to audit the class, which is free. (the only thing is you won’t be able to see the answers for the quiz at the end of each week) https://www.coursera.org/specializations/excel?utm_source=gg&utm_medium=sem&utm_campaign=13-Excel-Macquarie-US&utm_content=13-Excel-Macquarie-US&campaignid=6663908113&adgroupid=76454733782&device=c&keyword=microsoft%20excel%20training&matchtype=p&network=g&devicemodel=&adpostion=&creativeid=453119332078&hide_mobile_promo&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhaLysdma9AIVhXxvBB39xg2kEAAYASAAEgKUO_D_BwE

  114. Squeebird*

    Any suggestions for job searching with no professional references?

    My partner is ending 10 years of self-employment and will be job hunting soon. Since he’s been running his own business for over a decade, any professional references are going to be so old as to be irrelevant and might not even be reachable at this point. Unfortunately, he’s been working such long hours he also hasn’t been doing any volunteering or anything else we can think of that would provide a suitable reference.

    Has anyone successfully job searched in a similar situation? How did you deal with your lack of references?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Does he have some clients he’s worked with for a while that could serve as references? I think Alison has suggested using client references for the self-employed before.

    3. Purple Cat*

      He must have current clients/vendors/employees that he’s been working with the past 10 years….
      Those all count as “professional” it doesn’t have to be a “manager”.

      1. Squeebird*

        I legitimately had no idea it was okay to ask clients or vendors to be references when job searching! This is enlightening. He does have some excellent repeat customers so that may be an avenue to explore.

        1. Filosofickle*

          It is fine to use them. As someone who also made this jump back in after a long time, what I heard is ideally they want to talk to someone who has visibility behind the scenes and can provide some of the perspective a coworker or boss would. What that means is fantastic client reference goes beyond “this person delivered an excellent product/service” and into observed behaviors — how he reacts to feedback, how well he collaborates and listens to other people’s ideas, how he thinks and works, what processes he uses, things like that.

  115. ADHD Burnout*

    I finally have a diagnosis of ADHD (at age 28!). For my whole working life, I’ve been dealing with a pattern: I get a new job, do very well at it, then start to hate it within 7 or so months. Eventually it starts taking an emotional toll on me to the point where I hand in my resignation. I’ve never made it to the point where my work is affected, I’ve left every job with glowing praise and coworkers/managers sad to see me go. Then I stay unemployed for a year or so before I feel capable of holding a job again.

    I have been out of work since I quit late 2019, mostly relaxing and working on my mental health. Now I want to find a job in a different field, one actually related to my degree. I don’t want to burn out again, I want this to be an actual career for me! Does anyone have advice that could help me stay in a job for the long haul?

    1. ferrina*

      Find a job that plays to your ADHD. It should accommodate your weaknesses, and play to your strengths. I’m ADHD, and I need to avoid jobs that are repetitive + detail oriented on a regular basis, and I gravitate toward tough timelines (urgency) and lots of moving pieces (high stimulation). Other ADHDers find that jobs that allow them to move a lot more help (park ranger, child care, etc.)

      Some suggestions:
      – Jobs that are build around changes. These are usually project-based and could even be project-management.
      – Jobs that have a lot of moving pieces. This usually involves high mental stimulation, since you are always keeping an eye on everything. Event management is a great example of this.
      – Jobs that require creativity and flexibility. Educational programs, particularly for kids.
      – Jobs that have built-in chaos. Again, these tend to have high stimulation. I’ve found that ADHD makes me amazing in an emergency- when everyone else is getting overstimulated, I finally have the right amount of stimulation! Jobs include emergency response, teaching, etc.

      Make sure you are working with an ADHD professional as you go forward. You already know to watch out for your symptoms, but there will be secondary symptoms as well. That little voice that says “You’re just faking it, you don’t deserve this?” A lot of ADHD folks (including myself) have that from a lifetime of “disappointing” people by not being neurotypical. An ADHD professional can help you recognize that voice and counter it.

      Finally, go into the archives and read through commenter RagingADHD’s tips. Every so often ADHD comes up, and RagingADHD has a lot of great tips.

      Good luck!

      1. ADHD Burnout*

        I do have a professional I’m working with, and medication made a huge difference (it’s almost comedic how easy certain tasks became compared to the rest of my life). The secondary symptoms are actually what pushed me to find an ADHD professional, I had a diagnosis of depression but antidepressants didn’t help at all. It turned out to be the “stuck” feeling that I now associate with bad ADHD days. And my lifetime anxiety definitely came from the ADHD, I’m still trying to find the difference between urgency and panic mode!

        And you’re absolutely right about being good in an emergency – my family has had to deal with both fire and flood, and I was the only one who was totally clear and calm the whole time. My cousin asked me once “how are you not panicking” and my immediate answer was “my mom is panicking right now, I’ll take my turn tomorrow!”

        Flexibility and chaos sound like exactly my type of job

    2. RagingADHD*

      Are you getting treatment with therapy/coaching and/or meds? Because there are a variety of treatments out there that really can help with long-term patterns like this, just as much as they help with day to day issues.

      It’s possible that you are highly motivated by learning new things and mastering new skills. Six months is about when the steepest part of the learning curve starts to level off in a new job. So one thing you could consider is that when that itchy unsatisfied or bored feeling starts, before you outright hate the job, to look for other new things to learn and other new things to master, either within the job or in your personal life.
      Maybe you need to look for a field of work that you can never completely master, or with very different types of projects, so it always stays interesting.

      Or maybe, since you feel the need for so much downtime, you are throwing yourself into your work so hard that you don’t have a personal life or practice any self-care. Maybe you need a slower-paced job that allows you to get out and do interesting things on your own time.

      Balance is hard, but thinking about designing your life and making work one piece of your overall life helps a lot.

      1. A Girl Named Fred*

        I’m not OP, but I find I have a very similar pattern in my work life. (Not ADHD-diagnosed, though the more I read/see about it the more I think I should discuss the possibility with a therapist when I have insurance again…) Do you happen to have any suggestions for the types of fields you mentioned? I really identify with your sentence of “highly motivated by learning new things and mastering new skills,” but I haven’t been able to connect that with any work where that’s a major function of the job. So far I’ve been an AA/EA, which is decent as far as the variety of tasks but bad as far as most of those tasks being very easy so I end up bored quickly. I’d appreciate any thoughts you have on a direction I should do more research in! Thanks for sharing this comment either way, it was helpful for me to read and think about!

        1. RagingADHD*

          Oh gosh, there are all kinds of things that are project based, or that have nearly infinite complexity or levels.

          Project based could be anything from event planning, to design work, to construction management, to tech…. I know a guy who started out as a hotel night auditor, and now works for a major luxury hotel brand traveling to different resorts all over the world to oversee audits. So “financial auditor” sounds dull but his life is extremely cool.

          I went from EA to freelance writing and now ghostwrite nonfiction. For me, that’s a great combo because writing is one of those fields where there is no cap on how much you can/need to learn, plus I’m learning a new topic for every book.

          Other infinite-progression skill sets might be music, or white-hat hacking, landscape gardening, cooking, any sort of creative making, nursing or medicine, oh gosh…you can probably think of something that you could never get to the end of, that you’re interested in.

          1. A Girl Named Fred*

            Oh my goodness, thank you for such a thorough answer! I’ve definitely considered getting into some sort of writing, editing, or proofreading – technical writing has also crossed my mind a few times, as I’ve had the chance to work on a few projects of writing standard operating procedures and learning how to do something and then figuring out how to write instructions so that anyone else can also do it properly was a fun challenge. I also want to do some research into translation work (although I don’t currently know any additional languages…) because the idea of trying to articulate the meaning (both literal AND evocative) of an idea into another language sounds like a series of puzzles that you could always improve on.

            I also definitely enjoy a bunch of creative making hobbies, but I’m not sure I have the mindset/attitude to follow one of them in an entrepreneurial/freelance sense. I’d like to try my hand at a side hustle when I start working again – I tried to launch something while I’ve been off work, but I needed more time for my mental health to reset. Maybe if I get that set up and going on the side for a while I’d feel better about pivoting to full time someday! (And regardless, I’m definitely going to take your advice re: picking up a new thing to learn when I start to feel that “I’ve already learned everything at my job and am getting antsy” itch coming on!)

            I also love the idea of approaching this from a lens of, “What am I interested in that I’d actually struggle to get to the end of?” and seeing where that takes my brain. It feels similar to the idea of “what could you do every day and not get tired of” but without the fraught-ness of “forever”. Definitely a lot to think about. Thank you again!

            1. allathian*

              You don’t necessarily need to learn a new language to try your hand at something like translation. Rewriting ordinary text to clear/plain language is a growing field. Something related would be helping scientists write popular science papers by getting them to use simpler language so non-professionals can understand what they’re writing.

              I’m a mid-career translator, I’ve been doing it for nearly 20 years. I don’t have ADHD, but the work provides the challenges I need to thrive at a job. I’ve worked for my current employer for 14 years and no two days are the same. I tend to prefer jobs that are not too short, or too long. That’s why I don’t want to translate books, I don’t have the patience to keep working at the same project for several months. OTOH, jobs that are shorter than the length of this post feel too short, because all the admin tasks, like dealing with our (internal) clients, take too much time. Regardless of whether a job is a sentence or two, or 100 pages, the admin is about the same. My ideal projects involve sufficiently challenging translations that are between 2 and 25 pages long.

              1. A Girl Named Fred*

                That sounds fascinating! Do you mind if I ask how you got into the field and/or into your current employer? Did you get a particular degree or put together a portfolio of some sort? Are there any particular job titles (other than “Translator” lol) I should be using to help do my own research?

                Thank you for sharing your experience! I had no idea those sorts of translation jobs existed, although it makes total sense that they do.

            2. RagingADHD*

              Check out the book “Scanners” by Barbara Sher. It’s not about ADHD per se, but it’s for folks with wide-ranging and frequently-changing interests, and how it’s hard to fit ourselves into the cultural narrative / expectation of a linear career based on a single “passion” or skill set.

              1. A Girl Named Fred*

                Thank you! Just added it to my list to check out ASAP. I think I have a few TED Talks along similar lines that it might be time to go revisit!

            3. ADHD Burnout*

              I also have a whole bunch of different making-type hobbies, but if there’s nothing you want to spend time on every day forever I would suggest against money-fying your craft(s). I figured out that I can pick a bunch of things that don’t take much space when I’m not using them. Then I can just grab whichever bin has the kind of project I want right now. That’s actually the one thing I DID manage to get a handle on, organizing!

              And I agree with you, “forever” is a scary word.

              1. A Girl Named Fred*

                I definitely think there’s wisdom in not money-fying my hobbies! In the past, as soon as I think to myself, “Well maybe I could do this for a job one day,” I immediately stop wanting to do that thing at all and don’t touch it again until I let that thought go.

                Thank you for starting this thread; it’s been really helpful to discuss things and read about others’ experiences! I hope you’re able to find work you’ll excel in and enjoy!

      2. ADHD Burnout*

        “since you feel the need for so much downtime, you are throwing yourself into your work so hard” – I think you’ve nailed it! Most of my previous jobs, I ended up with what I call “scope creep,” where I just keep adding more to my ongoing responsibility. And then I can’t step away, I’m thinking about it all night and weekend until I can’t stand it anymore. And then I crash emotionally because there’s only so much energy I have stored up.

  116. Neon Dreams*

    I’m finishing up my first week at my new position and I like it much better already! My trainer talk to each other for several hours, but then she leaves so I’m on my own to process things and absorb the info. It’s heaven compared to being on edge all day because I didn’t know when the next call was coming.

  117. Moonbeam*

    Happy Friday!

    I had a bizarre experience earlier this week that put me a little off balance. A job candidate let me know that he was on his way to meet with us for an interview. About 10 minutes past the interview start time I gave him a call, complete benefit of the doubt that he was probably lost. At that point I could hear him outside my office, so I came out to meet him in our reception area. He was visibly flustered, and I greeted him in my usual friendly manner. He proceeded to say that there was no signage on any of the buildings around us, that he had been early for the appointment but hadn’t been able to find our building. I don’t remember his exact verbiage but he said “you should have told me X detail to find you!”. He was borderline shouting at me, and clearly blamed my directions. My boss actually came out of his office and started to interject, but I was trying to navigate the awkward situation of having a job candidate basically chewing me out. I also had to tell him, which I had already done over email, that I had to give him a parking pass to put in his car and he got really in a huff that he had parked a little ways from our building. He ended up snatching the pass from my hand and walking away.

    A coworker and my boss overheard all of this, and we looked at each other for a beat just processing the situation. My boss asked if I thought we should just thank him for his time and tell him we wouldn’t be proceeding with the interview. I decided the best option would be to proceed with the interview, but this was a pretty clear indicator that he’d be a bad fit. I kind of wanted to give him a bit of a chance to make up for the interaction, but also it seemed unfair for him to have driven to us, had a bad experience getting to us, and then for us to say “never mind!”. He was totally calm during the interview, didn’t say a word about the prior interaction, but for us the first interaction had cast a dark cloud.

    I can’t be sure, but I suspect he’s the guy who will treat the receptionist really poorly and then try to impress in the interview. He may not have realized that I’m a director, that I’d be the primary interviewer, and that I have a huge say in the hiring decision. I got some sexist vibes, which my male coworker pointed out himself, but I think it was also the “you must be a peasant who I can yell at” thing.

    So, what does everyone think?? Would you have taken the high road like we tried to do, or put this guy in his place and told him we didn’t want to interview him?

    If you’re curious of my directions, I gave him the address, told him that we are adjacent to a college but not part of the campus, and that GPS will drop you right at our front door. No other candidate has ever had a problem finding us.

    1. CW*

      Truth be told, I have gotten confused or lost on my way to an interview in the past. And while I was flustered, since I was going to be late and leave a bad first impression, I never shouted. However, I did apologize and luckily the interviewer understood. How I got lost is a story for another day, but I will admit that it was my fault.

      However, the candidate should not have shouted. That is unprofessional. Since you interviewed him, I would just reject him afterwards. In the future, I would say still interview, and if the situation really bothers you, then just reject. After all, the candidate already spent time and gas heading to your place. Turning them away means that you made them waste time. Of course, maybe you don’t care, but I personally wouldn’t have the candidate show up, only to be turned away. Just interview, then reject afterwards. That way it wouldn’t be a total waste of time.

      1. Observer*

        Turning them away means that you made them waste time

        I disagree. The OP wouldn’t have been the cause of the time waste – his behavior would have been. The problem is not that he was late or got lost. The problem was that he was rude, blamed the OP and shouted loud enough to bring the boss out of his office. At that point, interviewing could be seen as the waste of time, since there is really no chance that it’s going to result in a job offer anyway.

      2. Moonbeam*

        CW and Observer – I think my trouble is that I agree with both of you to an extent. I agree that the time wasted would not have been on us (it would have been on the candidate for losing an interview over his behavior), but I felt the responsibility to be the bigger person. There’s a PR aspect to this as well… how we treat candidates is part of our employer brand, so they are like customers in a way. There’s a different power-dynamic, certainly, but I’m not going to be the employer who treats candidates poorly (even if it’s just perception). I wanted to deescalate the situation, and turning him away probably wouldn’t have done that.

        I will say, I also wanted to call him out on his behavior during the interview, but my colleague talked me down. I would have been professional, and approached it from the standpoint that you just showed us you can’t be calm under pressure, so what do you have to say about that? I actually wish I had done that, but in the moment chose not to make it weirder than it already was. How funny that he didn’t say anything, or seem sheepish at all!

        1. The New Wanderer*

          I think it was the right call to continue with the interview, even knowing that the candidate would have to really pull a rabbit out of the hat to redeem himself after that mini-meltdown. If he’d come back contrite after the walk to/from the car and admitted his behavior was out of line, that would have helped his case a little (how much would depend on everything else). The fact that he didn’t even acknowledge it later, much less apologize, was at least as helpful in showing you who he is as the original overreaction.

          I’ve been significantly late to two different interviews due to confusing directions, it happens. But I was also very open about what happened and apologetic about the delay. Got the job both times (punctuality was obviously not a requirement!), but I’m pretty sure if I’d been rude or huffy about it being Someone Else’s Fault and that was my first impression on the hiring manager, they’d have tossed my application the minute I walked out – nobody wants to work with that person.

    2. Observer*

      I’m not sure how I would have handled it, but this does not sound like someone I would want to hire. And I think you would have been well within your rights to tell him “Shouting loud enough for people in the rest of the office to hear you is an automatic disqualifier.” and called it off on the spot.

    3. ferrina*

      I would decline to interview. Okay, I’d probably have frozen in the moment and went through with the interview, but with some very pointed questions about handling stress.

      You don’t need to interview someone who is a jerk. Is it fair? Yes. Part of the interview is getting a sense of who he is and how he would fit on the team. He has thoughtfully /s done that for you in the first 5 minutes, and you know it’s not a fit. Why waste his time further?
      (Bonus that it sends a very clear message about why he wasn’t hired, which has a chance of being a wake-up call)

      1. Moonbeam*

        I’m glad you said you would have frozen, because I sort of did. I had enough presence of mind not to take responsibility (Oh, I’m sorry this is all my fault), but in the moment I couldn’t decide if I should continue to be pleasant or be really firm and call out the behavior. I ended up going more into deescalate and deal with logistics mode, but looking back I wish I had told him I was sorry he had trouble but no one else had trouble finding us (read: I won’t hold being late against you but I also won’t accept you blaming me for it).

        Regarding the wake up call… unfortunately, I think he’s a person who is oblivious to anything being “on him”.

      2. Moonbeam*

        Oh, and I did ask some thinly veiled questions about handling stress and working with people from all walks of life and being respectful to all. I’m 99% sure he had no idea what I was getting at.

    4. RagingADHD*

      I don’t think there’s a right or wrong way to handle this. You did what you thought was best and kindest in the context, and that was fine.

      I think you’re also right that this lack of self-control is an indication of how he will behave under stress. I don’t know that it matters whether he’s a jerk because he’s sexist, or because he’s classist, or because he just has a bad temper. He was a jerk. That’s enough. Of course you shouldn’t hire him.

      Don’t waste any more time trying to analyze him. There’s no upside.

    5. JB*

      Yikes!

      I can see why you decided to interview him anyway. If he had collected himself and then genuinely apologized for his behavior earlier, that could have been a different situation. (Still not ideal, but – I can see how being late to an important job interview could make some normally calm people so stressed that they don’t realize how aggressive they’re coming across.)

      But the fact that he didn’t acknowledge it at all says to me there’s some kind of issue there. Either he has problems controlling his emotions and DOESN’T realize that’s an issue, or – as you said – he thought you were someone he could get away with taking his anger out on.

    6. All het up about it*

      I agree, I probably would have also gone ahead with the interview, hoping that maybe the walk to the car the person would have ended up suitably horrified by their own behavior and came back to start the interview with terrific professional apology.

      However, if you had decided to skip it, siting his behavior, I think that’s ultimately a supportable position as well. Neither option was wrong, in my opinion. And coming at the end of a project where I had to work with a person where everything that went wrong was “not my fault” you all certainly dodged that bullet – though it sounds like the rest of his interview wasn’t particularly stellar either.

    7. Dark Macadamia*

      I would have interviewed him anyway out of sheer awkwardness, lol. I think it was kind of you to give him a chance, because it’s genuinely frustrating and embarrassing to be late and lost, and there was a chance he’d come back mortified once he had a second to cool down. He won’t learn anything from getting rejected, but at least he doesn’t get to complain about how outrageous and awful you were for canceling on him after YOU made him late :)

  118. So It Goes*

    Anyone have tips for dealing with weird office smells? We just returned to the office, and every morning that I have been there, right around 9 or so, there’s a very strong smell of eucalyptus (?). While I am not prone to migraines (knock on wood), it is distracting, and it irritates my eyes and skin. I tried to walk around cubes that are close by to see if I could spot a diffuser, but nobody in my block has one. Had I noticed one, I would have politely asked if they would stop using it.

    I don’t want to complain, and I realize that a lot of people use essential oils for therapeutic purposes. I also realize that I am abnormally aware of scents. Does anyone know of a reasonable desktop air purifier that could help?

    1. ferrina*

      I think this might be a reasonable time for an all-office email. This is a really reasonable request to make, especially since the smell might not even be for therapeutic purposes. If it is necessary, maybe there’s a change that would help, like switching your spot/the other person’s spots, changing work hours, having them apply the oil in a more open aired area. You’re having a health reaction to something in the office, and it’s more than reasonable to get that addressed.

      I seem to remember something in the archives that was this exact situation of smeller vs smellee in a conflict of ADA accommodations. I don’t remember the outcome, though :(

    2. PollyQ*

      Cough drops? They can be quite pungent, although I wouldn’t have thought so strong as to irritate skin. But I don’t think there’s anything terrible about sending around a very polite email asking about it.

      I do have a Partu desktop air filter that I like quite well, although I’ve used it primarily for the CA wildfire smoke instead of anything like eucalyptus scent.

    3. RagingADHD*

      If you are getting eye and skin irritation, that’s not just an annoyance. People’s “theraputic” use of oils does not mean it’s okay for them to negatively impact your body.

      Ask around. If it’s that strong, you are certainly not the only one who can smell it. I wonder if it’s someone who uses them so strongly that they leave a trail as they walk by? I have known folks who left a cloud behind them that could linger for some time.

    4. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      It used to be common to put eucalyptus oil in the water when washing woollen jumpers, to deter moths. I still use it as an inhalant for blocked sinuses or to dab on mosquito bites. I vote for a short friendly email asking if anyone in the office has started using it. Another thing to consider is whether cleaning staff are mopping with a eucalyptus product. Once upon a time cleaners would wipe phone handsets with methylated spirits, so you would get a strong whiff of that, the first time you used the phone for the day!

    5. MissDisplaced*

      I used to live in California and there really were eucalyptus trees that would smell. Is it coming from outside?

      Is the smell only at 9am? I wonder if there is cleaning going on somewhere else in the building. I think it’s worth mentioning to building maintenance if the smell is strong enough to make eyes irritated.

  119. YOTDragon*

    How do you professionally point out when something is not your fault and put your foot down? Earlier this week, I was falsely accused of making the office look “messy”, even though the things there were put there by other departments, some of which has been there since March 202o when we started WFH. I don’t touch anything besides the things on my desk, and I always make sure my desk is neat when I leave.

    Part of the problem is that I am the only one in my department that is ever in the office, though only once a week. Nobody else in the department comes in, and I feel that because I am the only one in my department that comes in the office at all, everything that happens in the office must be my fault. Truthfully, I was upset about it but I didn’t say anything or show it on my face during a virtual meeting with my boss. Also, there are other employees from other departments that come in, some choose to do so 5 days a week. My employer gives us that choice, though it encourages you to WFH.

    And no, I don’t come in the office by choice. A small part of my job cannot be done from home, otherwise I would choose not to come in.

    How would you handle this?

    1. Reba*

      I think it would make the most sense to push back in the moment! Calmly, like “oh, it sounds like you are unhappy that the office is messy — but I didn’t make it that way, when I come in I only use my desk and I keep it tidy.”

      But, it sounds like this may be something of a pattern in which case at the next opportunity you could say something like, “Several times recently you have seemed unhappy with the state of office cleanliness and I got the feeling you think I am behind it. I just want you to know that that is not the case. I’m pretty neat in my habits, and some of that stuff has actually been there the whole pandemic.”

      Definitely don’t let them keep thinking this false impression of you! It’s not too petty to mention, just be chill and not offended (because accused of mess) or let your other feelings about going in to the office come into it too much (obviously it’s related but I don’t think this is the way into talking about the other frustrations).

    2. Indy Dem*

      If this was just a one off comment, I would just let it go. If it’s a comment that is more frequent, I’d say something to effect of “I’m in charge of keeping my work area clean, which I do. I can’t control what messes other people make.”

    3. RagingADHD*

      Depends on your role and your relationship with the boss, but I would probably take the tack of agreeing with the goal (a neater office) and pointing out my obstacle. Like:

      “You mentioned that you want the office tidied up, and so I checked on the stuff in the area around my desk that isn’t mine.

      This stuff appears to belong to Dept A, that stuff is Dept B’s, and I’m not sure who these other things belong to. Can you tell me the right person to get in touch with to find out where these things should be moved? Or would it be better if you contacted those department heads directly?”

      This is a form of “return responsibility to sender” that has worked very well for me over the years.

  120. Barefoot Librarian*

    I’m struggling this afternoon. I turned in notice at the job I’ve been working for six years and my boss is obviously very upset. She’s given me the offer of a counteroffer, but I asked her not to approach HR on my behalf and that I wasn’t open to a counter. I’m not very good at articulating why, but I think it’s a lot to do with the fact that I’ve recently gotten tenure (with no raise) and only had one CoL or merit raise in six years (no one else got one either at my level). I feel like she’s right that they might grant me a salary increase to keep me from leaving but it would be a begrudging offer and I probably wouldn’t get a raise again for a while. The thing is that we have a big going project that I’ve been a key player in and I think she’s panicking. I think she is less man that I’m leaving but feels betrayed that I didn’t come to her before accepting the offer. I feel like a big jerk but I think I need to stand my ground. The new position is an amazing opportunity, is more than a 30% increase, and I’m excited about it. I’ve already started my background check and signed my offer letter. AITA?

    1. Barefoot Librarian*

      I just want to clarify that I am not implying that my boss is in the wrong in this situation. She’s amazing and we’ve always worked well together. I’m just shook a bit by how upset she was and am questioning if I’m a jerk for not being open to a counter or coming to her when I got the offer. :(

      1. Reba*

        You’re not a jerk! No workplace has the right of first refusal over you!

        You have an understanding of your boss’s situation and likely emotions, but that doesn’t mean what she says is reasonable. If she wants to talk about it again, you could explain that no increase she could offer would be competitive with the 30% you’re taking. But I hope she doesn’t ask you about it again. Have a smooth notice period, and congrats!!

        1. Barefoot Librarian*

          I expect it would be more a courtesy than a right, but, you make a good point, I have lots of history with the company (though I enjoy the work very much) not compensating their employees right. That’s not my boss’s fault, and I know it frustrates her too, but I’m going to stick to my guns and hopefully Monday we can start talking about how to make it a smooth transition. Thanks for the congrats! I’m a really excited about this new opportunity.

      2. ferrina*

        I’m guessing she’s not actually upset by you coming to her with the offer, but by the prospect of you leaving. Even good people are prone to shooting the messenger when they don’t like the messenger- “But if you just told me in a different way, I wouldn’t be so hurt!”
        Nope, it will still sting. Your boss might be otherwise amazing, but she needs to stop blaming you for making reasonable business decisions.

        1. Barefoot Librarian*

          Yeah, you’re likely right. I’m not mad, just a bit sad to have upset her. It’s been a rough year. I often think people are just one straw short of full-on camel back breakage at this point. I’m going to be gentle but stand my ground.

      3. AnotherLibrarian*

        Remember, your boss isn’t upset at you. If she’s a good boss (as you said she is) she’s worried about how to manage things, probably feels some guilt (because she knows you aren’t being paid fairly and no raise when you get tenure is bananaspants), and is trying to wrap her head around the new situation. She shouldn’t take any of this out on you, of course, but surprising news is sometimes hard to control emotions over. You are not a jerk. You are going the best thing for you. I suspect, if she’s amazing as you say, she knows that and likely the surprise has just left her a little off her game. Best of luck with your new job.

    2. All Het Up About It*

      NOOOOO! You are not the a****!
      You have an amazing new position lined up. Just be excited about that. Talk the good game of enjoying your time, but you are excited by the new challenges and opportunities the new position affords. Also – if they try and make it about money it seems unlikely they would match your new role’s salary at a 30% increase, so even if you offer something, you aren’t going to take it. Don’t get too caught up in your manager’s feelings. She is probably panicking and possibly (hopefully) is angry at HR and organization for so woefully under paying you/ not recognizing your talents that they’ve created this situation. She might actually be redirecting those feelings toward you, or you might just be feeling guilty and misinterpreting, but either way, you did nothing wrong. You have nothing to feel guilty about.

      1. Barefoot Librarian*

        Thank you, All Het. I needed that perspective, and I think you’re right. It’s been a rough couple of years for everyone – Covid, isolation, budget cuts – and she might be more upset at the situation and not really upset at me. I just worried that I might be being unreasonable. I don’t think a raise to stay would fix any of the long-term issues, even if they were able to get close to my offer. I’m hoping Monday will be calmer and we can start talking transition. I gave a months notice so I could leave things in as good a shape as possible for my eventual successor.

    3. ferrina*

      You are doing the right thing! Alison has written about this exact things as a reason not to accept counter offers. Like you point out, they aren’t paying you well and the salary increase would be begrudging and wouldn’t address any underlying issues.
      Also- any business that is okay with having an employee with less buying power when they started (despite good work) doesn’t care about their employees. They should be asking AITA, not you.

      1. Barefoot Librarian*

        Every time I fill up my gas tank or buy groceries lately I think about that issue of less buying power! It stings. To add insult to injury, our insurance premiums continue to go up.

    4. PollyQ*

      Definitely NTA! You are allowed to leave a job for any reason at all, and 1 raise in 6 years is an excellent one! Your boss’s emotions are not your responsibility. Feeling “betrayed” is ridiculous, but even things like “upset” or “concerned about how she’ll get stuff done” are still not your fault and not your problem. She’s a grown woman, and she’ll figure out a way to deal with the situation and her feelings on her own.

      (I will say that I wish you’d waited until you’d cleared your background check before you gave notice, but what’s done is done, and it’ll probably be fine.)

    5. RagingADHD*

      NTA.

      It’s normal for her to have some feelings. Those feelings aren’t going to harm her, because feelings aren’t poison.

      Her feelings aren’t going to close the gap on six years of being underpaid, either. You wouldn’t take a counter if they offered, so it would have been cruel to set her up for that false expectation. You aren’t cruel.

      It’s a job. You got a better job. You can feel empathy for her and also take the job.

    6. LQ*

      I had a coworker who was AMAZING leave recently and I am both heartbroken for the organization and having someone to work with and do really amazing things together. And at the same time I’m thrilled. He got a raise, less work, so much less work, it’s going to be a job he can get bored by and not want to rip out all his hair at.

      You can be both things at once. And the fact that your boss is a little betrayed or hurt or nervous or paniced…none of these mean you are an asshole. It means your boss is human and trying to respond and needs to suddenly drop everything she was doing to do something else which even if she was only thrilled you were leaving would still cause some stress.

      You can’t not leave because of what it would do. You need to move on. It sounds very reasonable the way you are approaching it. But your boss gets to have feelings. And that doesn’t mean you are wrong.

  121. I don't want to be wanted*

    A coworker fairly obviously has had a crush on me for a few years now. Nothing inappropriate has ever happened and I’m not interested in pursuing anything. My issue is that this coworker has now received an acting promotion where she is one level above me. She is not my direct supervisor but does sometimes assign me work, consult with me, etc. At the same time, I am very good friends with another coworker. This now supervisor and good friends coworker do not get along. In addition, new supervisor is good friends coworker’s direct supervisor.

    There have been several instances now where supervisor has shown favoritism towards me and disregarded the contributions of good friends coworker. She does this in such a way that it is obvious to people who know the background but can be plausibly denied to anyone who is not aware of the history there.

    I’m looking for advice on how to handle this moving forward. Do I say something to her directly? Do I go to her manager? Do I leave it alone since nothing has happened yet that could be proven?

    1. ferrina*

      It sounds like there are a couple things going on.
      Crushing New Supervisor (CNS) is Good Friend’s supervisor. They’ve butted heads before, and she regularly ignores Good Friend’s contributions. You need to leave this one alone. It doesn’t actually have to do with you, and there is high drama potential. You can be a sympathetic ear for Friend, but that’s it. Remember, just because they are a work friend doesn’t mean that you’ll know (accurately) about their performance.

      Good Friend needs to update their resume. Having a boss that is undermining you and devaluing your contributions is a career killer. Unless clear legal discrimination at play (as opposed to just being a bully, which is legal), there is no recourse. Even if she doesn’t fire Friend or force them out, it’s going to be a miserable place to work and will hurt the type of projects and accolades Friend receives. I’ve been there, and if your boss is determined to undermine you, there is nothing you can do. You, LW, can offer to be a reference for Good Friend, and direct Good Friend to AAM if they need help with their job search/resume/etc.

      I’m more worried about you. CNS has shown favoritism toward you and sometimes assigns you work. Not in a direct reporting chain, but still with some authority over you (?). If you haven’t already, loop in your boss or HR about the crush. You say the crush is fairly obvious, which is not good. “Hey, I feel awkward doing this, but I wanted to flag this for you in case things get weird.” Be ready with specific interactions that made you uncomfortable and how you reacted to this. They may ask you what you want right now. Reasonable things might be not working on XYZ with her, or not traveling with her, but it’s okay to say “nothing for right now. I was just worried that things might get weird now that she has some authority over me. I’m really hoping they don’t and this conversation will hopefully never come up again, but if something does happen, I want you to know this.” If you need advice (“What do I do if she repeatedly credit me with someone else’s work? I want to make sure that other people are getting the credit they deserve.”), now is a good time to ask. Do not bring Good Friend into this. It is not related to the issue with you, and it will weaken what you are saying (and may even make you look drama prone. I know that’s not fair, but it could happen).

      If you do say something to her, it needs to be unambiguous. “Don’t call me Babe. It makes me uncomfortable.” Don’t say “you have a crush on me”, since that is too easily denied. Document any interaction that makes you uncomfortable (write it down with the day, time, and witnesses. Be factual and detailed as possible). Hopefully you won’t need it, but it’s good to have. I wouldn’t talk to her about anything but work, and then use email as much as I could (rather than in-person interactions).
      This sounds like an awful situation. Good luck!

      1. tamarack and fireweed*

        All of this. Plus, I’d talk with your own supervisor about issues (obviously not going down in speculation about stuff you can’t back up – like whether they have a crush on you if you don’t have more than longing gazes and allusions), rather than with that person or their supervisor.

  122. CW*

    If you are not a morning person, how would you make it easier if you had to get up early? I get up at 5am on the days I have to go into the office. On days that I WFH, I sleep until 8am. But getting up at 5am is not too ideal for me. Plus, I dread it and it makes me too nervous to sleep, so it’s basically a double whammy – I get up early while being sleep deprived.

    To be clear, I have never been a morning person, and it would be a miracle if I got up before 8am on a weekend. But other people I know get up at or before 6am without even trying. To all you non-morning folks out there, any suggestions on how to make this easier, or at least cope?

    1. ferrina*

      Lights. When I had to get up at 5am, I turned on all the lights to get my brain awake.

      Also prepping anything that required brain power the night before. I could stand in front of my closet for 10 minutes in the morning, but picking an outfit would be 2 minutes the night before.

      And sleep at the right time. Make yourself a sleep routine to help your brain move to Sleep Mode. Put the phone down (blue light stimulates the brain), have some warm milk, put on some quiet music (I’ve sleep trained my children to Enya, so now they instinctually start getting sleepy when they hear Orinoco Flows)

    2. ATX*

      One thing that helps and a lot of people don’t do is make sure you make a habit of waking up early if you have to, this means forgoing sleeping in on the weekends. It takes quite a while and it’s not fun. I would say it takes a couple of months of consistently waking up early so that you start to feel more normal. The more you do it, the more you will become acclimated to going to bed early too.

      1. Hlao-roo*

        Yes to this! Waking up at 5 am some days and 8 am other days is basically giving your body 3 hrs worth of jet lag multiple times per week. I try to not “sleep in” more than an hour or two on the weekends and that helps me wake up when I need to on weekdays.

        CW, one thing to think about is are you a “sleep to the last possible moment, roll right into my clothes and head straight to the office” non-morning person or a “wake up an hour earlier that I need to so I can sip my coffee at an ungodly hour and be semi-functional when I arrive at the office” non-morning person?

        I am a morning person, but I strongly prefer to wake up earlier than I “need” to so I don’t have to rush through my morning routine. My secret to waking up at 6am every morning is that I’m usually in bed by 9:30 pm so I can be asleep by 10pm. I need eight hours of sleep to function well, so I make sure I get it.

        1. All het up about it*

          Yep! This sucks, but it’s true. The more consistent you can be with your sleep schedule the easier the mornings will be. Even if you sleep in to say 6 on WFH days, then spend the extra hours going for a walk, doing an at home-workout, meditation, yoga, or fixing a more elaborate breakfast, in the long run, you’re going to feel better.

          I’m also curious as to why the big difference in times based on where you are working. Is it just that your commute is that long? Maybe. Or do you feel the need put more effort in how you look on days you go in? (I’m picturing a woman, straightening/ curling hair and doing make-up, just because I have so many friends in that boat, but I suppose a man might feel more contentious about shaving or showering in the morning or have longer hair that needs to be dried or styled as well.) But no matter what – if the three hour difference is caused by anything other than commute/family pickup-dropoff schedules or the like, I’d urge you to look at also, is there anything you could take out of your in the office morning routine that would allow you to sleep a little later and match the same time wake up from that direction as well.

    3. SparkleBoots*

      I try to minimize the amount of things I need to do in the morning so I can wake up later and also not have to engage my brain as much. I do the following the night before: get my bag ready, pick out my outfit, get my lunch ready, take a shower. This allows me to keep my “getting ready” time down around 20-30 min. I would evaluate your morning routine and try to trim out as much as possible or do it the night before.

    4. Barefoot Librarian*

      Oof, I struggle with this as well. I do try to practice good sleep hygiene on those days when I have to get up early (no screen time, get in bed early, read a book, no UV light, no eating or drinking late, etc.) but it’s mixed results. Nothing has really worked for me except taking a sleep aid (usually melatonin), though having a sleep routine does help some. I also shower the night before and leave out clothes and my jewelry for the day (maybe even a quick grab granola or breakfast bar) because that means that if I DO sleep in a bit, getting ready is less hectic. Good luck! 5am is rough.

    5. WellRed*

      Honestly, you should be getting up at at more consistent time each day. Maybe not five am but three hours different is a lot. And how does that impact what time you go to bed? Beyond that, If I have to get up super early, I get everything ready the night before. However no matter what you do some people are early birds and some are night owls.

    6. Moonbeam*

      I had to get up at 6am for a commute at a position that I left in August. I now cut my commute by 30 minutes in my new position, and have a much more flexible schedule. As per usual with me, I’m being really immature about it! Similar to what you describe, I’ve been a horrible morning person my whole life. Even if I get up a little earlier, I somehow waste time with my morning routine. I also really enjoy staying up pretty late on Friday and Saturday since I don’t need to get up early the next day… it’s partly being a night-owl, but I think it’s more that it’s my introvert time to be up late when my son and spouse are sleeping.

      I think there’s a lot to be said for setting a routine and sticking to it. You don’t need to get up at 5am every day, but maybe cut back on how much you sleep in, and try to pair that with your bedtime. I’ve also found that doing something other than watching TV or scrolling on my phone before bed has helped a lot with the quality of my sleep. I’ve been reading or listening to a book with a timer before bed, which puts me into sleep mode.

    7. Names are hard*

      Non-morning person here, my standard sleep times are 2am-10am unless I specifically fight it. Waking up early is an absolute chore for me! I set my alarm to be one of my spotify playlists, music that I like, on my phone, which is plugged in to charge on the other side of the room. I have one alarm set for 30 minutes before I have to get up, and a second, louder alarm for 5 minutes before my “get out of bed” deadline. I make it as easy as possible to stay out of bed when I get up to silence my phone. My slippers are right there, and my warm robe, once I’m wearing those I don’t want to get back under the covers. Recently I found a used “sunrise clock” that’s been helpful, I set it to reach “full daylight” levels when my first alarm goes off.

      I set up as much as possible the night before. Work bag packed, keys next to it, lunch packed (with my vitamins), clothes laid out, coffee mug and machine ready, so I have no decisions left to make.

      To fall asleep, I actually use the opposite of most advice: I sit up and play phone games or read until I almost doze off. Its more pleasant than sitting in the dark trying not to to think.

    8. PollyQ*

      Are you a coffee person? A programmable coffee maker that has a cup/pot of freshly brewed coffee for you already made when you get out of bed might help. Ultimately, you may need to find another job, though. People’s internal body clocks are what they are, and there’s only so much you can do to work around them.

    9. AnotherLibrarian*

      As a non-morning grouchy person who lives in a place where it is dark until after 10 am in the winter, I’ve learned that the most amazing invention known to man is an alarm clock that lights up as it comes on in the AM. Sometimes these are called, Sunrise Alarm Clocks or Wake Up Lights. I also agree with folks that waking up at the same time all 7 days of the week (as awful as that might be) can be super helpful. I also find getting everything done I can the night before (lay out my clothing, shower, pack my lunch), so all I have to do in the morning is brush my teeth, do my hair, grab my lunch from the fridge, get dressed, feed the cat and escape, though not in that order.

    10. Just an autistic redhead*

      When I was commuting and had to get up early I found that doing a Duolingo round on silent helped me to get going, so I’d echo others’ “something that makes you think/engages your attention”. (Unlike waking up earlier, which netted me less sleep for the same arrival time plus zombie mode all day.)
      Before I got married, I also found putting my alarm so that I had no choice but to move out of bed to turn it off was useful. (Don’t want to do that to my husband these days, especially since he doesn’t have to get up at the same time.)
      Further into the past, planning time for something I enjoyed into the time period just after waking, like interacting with a pet, birdwatching, praying, meditating, exercising, watering/appreciating plants… As long as I had a guideline for myself on it somehow, that helped.

    11. allathian*

      Tl,dr: former 2nd shift worker switched to daytime office work.

      When I worked second shift (4 pm – 10 pm) at a previous job at a call center, it would take me hours to wind down. I’d often stay awake until 2 am and sleep until 10 am. This caused me a few problems when I wanted to switch to a daytime job and get out of CS work, and I’m fairly sure that I lost at least one interview opportunity because I was asleep when the recruiter called me at 9 am, presumably to schedule an interview, and I probably sounded woozy on the phone.

      The CC job was weird for here, because there was no expectation of giving notice. When I got the office job, I just told them that it was the last shift I was going to work, and that was it. I had about 3 weeks to adjust my schedule, and when I started my new job, I had switched enough so that I could be there at 9 am, mentally as well as physically. That job had some flexibility, although not as much as my current job, so we were expected to be at work by 9. I continued adjusting my schedule, until I started arriving closer to 8, when most of my coworkers arrived, and that also meant that I didn’t have to stay later, which I really didn’t like…

      Although sleeping in would at times be wonderful, I find that maintaining a good routine helps me sleep a lot better. If I’m particularly tired, I’ll sometimes take a short nap after work, particularly on days I’ve been to the office. I find that 15 or 20 minutes doesn’t affect the way I sleep at night.

      I don’t remember ever having too many problems getting up in time for school, even as a teenager, even when my high school was a 30-minute bus ride away, and most mornings started at 8. So I guess I’m a morning person at heart, and the schedule caused by the year or so I worked evenings at the call center was an aberration for me…

  123. It's Bananas*

    Late to the game, but hopefully someone is still reading. We have a single bathroom in our department, but it’s right next to our cubicles and… not very, um, private. (It’s next to my boss’s office and near where we all work.)

    I like to use the bathroom on the other side, but it sometimes involves walking through where the contractors work. You’re not walking through their cubicles or anything, but you do have to walk into the room where they work. I don’t know if they’re annoyed by this, but someone made a comment like, “We should install a revolving door.” when I came in. (I don’t know if it was directed at me or if they were talking about something else.)

    They also started saying “hi” to me. It’s awkward, but it’s a bathroom! It’s not their bathroom/for their use only. Plus, there are signs in the area that say, “Bathroom” if we have visitors come in. Other people in my department also use the bathroom back there.

    I feel awkward now- do I just ignore this? Should I say something? (But what?)

    1. ferrina*

      They may not know how bad the other bathroom is, especially since they have no reason to go there. It’s also probably annoying if they only ever see people on the way to the bathroom! Depending on how many people that is, that’s also a lot of traffic and probably really distracting.

      Say “hi” back. Be friendly and appreciate that it is probably annoying to them. Nothing you can do about it, but be empathetic. If you can naturally fit it in, you could even apologize for all the interruptions and explain about the horrors of the Unprivate Bathroom (bonus if you can do it in an amusing way).

      If there are fixes that could make the Unprivate Bathroom usable, definitely alert the Office Manager/HR to it or see if it’s something the dept can change on their own (though I realize that might not be possible)

      1. It's Bananas*

        I did apologize and joked that they should charge a toll for people passing through. They laughed and seemed to appreciate it. (I hope.) Still feel bad though…

  124. Me!*

    So the out-of-state job I really wanted, that didn’t get back to me? They got back to me.

    Turns out the hiring manager, who went on maternity leave, passed my info onto someone in another department for a different job. This one is more involved and a bit of a stretch, but there would be cool stuff to learn. The other department’s manager emailed me and we have a phone interview on Monday with the HR person.

    I’m a little nervous since it’s more creative, marketing/media-focused and I have NO experience in that other than just the beginner-level stuff I do for my books. Maybe they think I could learn it? I hope they don’t just think I know everything. I keep getting messages from recruiters that think I know stuff I don’t actually know, ugh. I feel like I’m going to struggle to focus on what I can do instead of what I don’t know.

    I’m guessing they want to hire me and are trying to find a place for me. What do you think?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Remember that interviews are a two way street. Let them know that you don’t know everything. How much do they expect a person in this role to know right off the bat? What trainings do they have available? Are there other people in the company with the same/similar role that you could lean on for support or do they want a subject matter expert?

      Good luck!

    2. PollyQ*

      No, no, no! Do not let your brain say “I have NO experience in that other than just the beginner-level stuff I do for my books.” The actual truth is “Because of my books, I some have experience in marketing.” It’s true, you don’t want employers to think you have skills you don’t, but you wouldn’t be coming to this brand spanking-new, so don’t sell yourself short.

      1. Me!*

        I don’t, though, not really. All I ever do is tweet, and this is full-on managing podcasts. And one of the lines in the job post is “Host one of the podcasts.” WHAT THE WHAT. I’ve performed since I was five, but not in decades and I quit skating in 2016 so I haven’t even thought about an audience since then. I don’t know shit about podcasting. At All.

        I don’t even know what to say about any of this!

        1. WellRed*

          If they have a product they likely have an audience. It sounds like they already have podcasts? Can you listen to one? This may all be out of your wheelhouse or they may just be throwing everything into the job post to see what sticks. Hlao roo gave good advice. I’m also a writer and I run screaming from job posts about SEOs etc so I feel ya.

    3. Pam Adams*

      You are a novelist- you are creative!!! Definitely bring in the marketing for your books, as part of your experience!

      I think the fact that they are reaching out to you for another job means that they are impressed with you- most employers won’t bother.

      1. Me!*

        I dooooonnnn’t. I don’t do anything. All I do is tweet. I’m NOT a marketer. I don’t know SEO; I am Jon Snow! Writing novels is not the same thing as marketing. I’m not even a copywriter. I struggle to write queries. I hate selling!

        I wonder if they looked at my portfolio and saw my silly book trailer. Now I’m panicking!!

        *runs around like Kevin in Home Alone*

        1. fhqwhgads*

          Approach this with the confidence of Michael Scott, but the intelligence of you, cuz you’re a smart person.

    4. KR*

      You can do this! You’re an excellent writer and a creative person. You always have something interesting to say. You got this.

    5. RagingADHD*

      Just ask questions.

      “This position sounds really interesting, but it seems like a bit of a stretch in some areas. What are your expectations for someone coming into the role, and how much room do you have for a learning curve where I could grow into the role and take things over gradually?”

      1. Me!*

        Oh my dawg, this is a great question thank youuuu! *steals; puts on her interview form; yes I have a form for that*

  126. Cheezmouser*

    Question for working parents, and especially working moms in upper management: what is work-life balance like as you climb into upper management?

    I recently declined to apply for a director-level position within my department even though I would’ve been a shoo-in. (I’m currently at the top of middle management and was the previous director’s right-hand person.) The main reason I decided not to was because I have 2 young children at home. I’m the primary caregiver because my husband’s work requires him to be at the office, whereas I work from home. (WFH is not possible for him due to the nature of his job.) We don’t have family living nearby who can help. I was already dying with school/daycare drop-offs, pickups, dinner prep, cleaning up spills, kissing boo-boos, bath time, and bedtime on top of working full time. While I really wanted to apply for the position, the tradeoff would’ve been hiring a nanny and spending less time with the kids, as I would probably need to work 10-12 hours per day. In the end, I chose not to apply, but I can’t tell if I made the right choice. I’ve always been ambitious, so it’s eating at me that I purposely turned down an opportunity to advance.

    I’m told by other moms that upper management positions don’t necessarily require more working hours, just different type of work. I can’t imagine how this is true, given that there would be more meetings, more travel, etc. What is your experience with work-life balance as you make the jump from middle management to upper management?

    1. Anonynonybooboo*

      I could not have done the job I’m doing now, while my children were small.

      I have always worked full time, and I was the primary caregiver too (by choice and on purpose) so until all of mine where in school full time and no longer little, I didn’t move up. I didn’t make the transition until the youngest was in 2nd grade because that’s when it finally felt like home life had some breathing room.

      That said, the transition did mean that my husband had to take on more (he just had to, because yes, there are more hours spent on work now) – and it was extremely hard for ME to let go of some of that, since I’d done it over a decade at that point.

      He also has to be in the office full time, so where he’s able to help best is the scheduled stuff – he just books that as time off and takes care of scheduling and taking the kids to appointments. I handle the “emergency” stuff since I’m far closer. As a practical example of how the labor is now split, when our fridge died I took the delivery (because I’m here already), but he did the research, bought the thing, and arranged the delivery date.

      I do a lot of work in the mornings before they even wake up, so that the distracted hours between wake up and all being out of the house can be spent on less-taxing work matters. I also spend a lot of time on evenings and weekends on what I would consider “thought work” – planning, research, etc. – so that my “butt in chair time” while they are at school can be spent collaborating, in meetings, and on time-sensitive tasks.

      I have calendar blocks in place during the school transition times; I am working during that time, but don’t schedule meetings then. My team and my boss know to call me on my cell during that time, but to the rest of the company I am unavailable.

      I’m perpetually tired and stressed, but the flip side is I get to hold my youngest’s hand while walking him to school (until we turn the corner and his friends can see, he IS getting older LOL). There’s just no replacing that time.

      But really – the age of the kids matters A LOT here.

      1. Cheezmouser*

        Thanks for sharing! That’s what I thought. Mine are 2 and 5 and we are contemplating one more (a sure sign of insanity) so it sounds like my judgment call of “I want the director position but I also don’t want to die, so maybe play the long game and wait a few more years” was right. Good to know that age 7-8 for the youngest one is probably when I should aim to advance.

    2. NancyDrew*

      I have to admit, I hate to read this. You’re opting out based on a ton of faulty assumptions.

      I’m an EVP with two young kids. I promise you, it’s completely doable, and 100% worth it. Despite some chaotic days, the truth is, as a leader you have significantly more flexibility and power than you do as a non-leader. And I delegate strategically (plus I work really fast and am really excellent at what I do — not a brag, just a reality), so I absolutely do not work 10 hour days ,except on rare occasions.

      I pick up my kids every day at 3. (My husband then watches them while I finish working, as he’s self-employed.) I do drop-off every single day, with an occasional (once a month?) exception if I have an early client call. (I have to…we have two kids who go to two different schools in two different towns, and only one car, so we have to split up and each take one kid!) And one of my kids is special needs.

      For all its problems, LEAN IN (the book) still has some very useful analyses about the ways women lean out when they don’t need to. I don’t know your life, but I do know that countless women have done what you’re doing, and frankly, the world is worse off for it. When I think of the amazing programs and projects and products haven’t been created because women opted out, I want to scream.

  127. Daydreamer*

    Full disclosure that I’m in middle management rather than upper so can’t fully answer the question but I think a lot of it depends on company culture. Our company seems to be very parent friendly and nearly everybody on the upper management tier is a parent. And nobody seems to bat an eyelid that they put down boundaries because of that. The attitude seems to be that, provided the work is getting done, nobody seems to mind what hours you worked to do it. That being said, the hours seem long (it’s basically full day work then with kids at bedtime then rest of working day after bedtime) and a lot of them seem to be on call on weekends. So perhaps it’s better described as ‘I put strict boundaries around the time I have with my kids but that amount of time is actually smaller than some people would be comfortable with’?

    That being said, I’ve worked other places where the moment you have management responsibilities, it becomes an unwritten rule that you won’t be leaving on time because ‘that’s not what managers do’ – regardless of the fact that you did two hours before you got to the office and will do another two after bedtime.

    I’ve also, similar to you, screened myself out of next step up jobs because it’s made clear I’ll be expected to work at weekends and, like you, have kicked myself for not being ambitious enough. But then I’ve also told myself that kids stay little for what is a relatively short amount of time – I’m guessing that, five years from now, my kids will want nothing to do with me and I’ll be begging to be on call on the weekends for something to do!!

      1. Cheezmouser*

        Thanks, Daydreamer! This makes me feel better. I just need to keep reminding myself that this isn’t the only chance I’ll ever have to advance, whereas this IS the only chance I have to spend time with my kids while they’re little.

  128. Alexis Rosay*

    Any advice for very short networking meetings? (15-20 min)

    I’m a student making a career change and we’re being introduced to a lot of potential contacts for when we graduate. We were told that if we reach out to these contacts, we should ask for a 20 min meeting bc they might get a lot of requests. I usually come to informational interviews with a looooong list of questions. Any advice on how to figure out the most important questions and make the most of a short time?

    1. Alexis Rosay*

      PS It’s far away from graduation that I’m not job hunting right now, more trying to get a feel of people and make a connection for later on.

      1. Cheezmouser*

        Who are the people you are networking with? Are they recruiters looking for entry-level talent or are they alumni doing this as a service for their alma mater? It’s important to know the difference because one group is actively looking to hire and the other is just there to give you a few tips from the trenches and feel good about themselves paying it forward. Tailor your questions for the audience.

        Also, what are you looking to get out of the conversation? Do you want to know about that person’s career progression so you can chart a similar course for yourself? Are you looking for intel on that particular company, ie their entry level positions, company culture, etc, because you are considering applying there at graduation? Are you looking for industry insights so you can understand which companies are leading, rising stars, niche, etc and apply to the sector that interests you the most? Are you looking for tips on what to do now to stand out when applying for your first job in this field? Whatever it is, be clear on your goal and narrow your questions accordingly. Or if it’s all of the above, maybe spread the questions out across multiple interviews.

        I’d caution about expecting to make a connection for later on, especially if these people do these interviews all the time. You’re a face in the crowd to them, so it’s unlikely that they will remember the conversation months from now. I’m not trying to be a downer, I’m just trying to provide context for these types of things. In my experience, networking events rarely lead to genuine connections. You need to work with someone in order to make a professional connection that you can actually leverage into opportunities.

        1. Alexis Rosay*

          Yes, absolutely. Thanks for this, these are all very good points and will be helpful as I narrow down my questions.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Look at your long of questions and identify the top 4 and then email them ahead of time to the person when you ask for the informational interview. One question I’ve been asked before that I found particularly interesting was a new grad who asked me “What is the one piece of advice that you wish someone had given you in the beginning of your career and you’d like to pass along?”

      I still sometimes ask people this and I am always fascinated by the responses.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I had to do informational interviews as part of a management program at work, meeting with an assortment of our C-suite and VPs, and I got both good answers and positive feedback from them when I asked things like “What is one question you think I should be asking you” or “What is something that you wish people had told you about when you were just getting into management?” And they all (told me they) really enjoyed answering “If you had the opportunity to do it again, what would you change? What would you NOT change?” (Mine were specific to management because of my program, but you could do that with a general field too.)

  129. Anonymous applicant*

    Someone who used to be my manager encouraged me to apply for a role where they currently work. I applied and have been trying hard to follow Alison’s advice of “Apply and pretend you didn’t get the job”, but it’s been hard. I applied over 2 weeks ago and not only have I not gotten a call or email, but no one’s even looked at my LinkedIn profile, which makes me think I didn’t even make it past the applicant tracking system or got ruled out right away. The posting is still up, so maybe I still have a chance, but I’m still bummed because this is a role I feel like I’m qualified for and that I should have at least gotten a screening call for. Oh well.

    1. Anonymous applicant*

      I realize I didn’t ask a question. Anyone else feeling the “waiting for even an acknowledgement from HR” blues?

    2. ecnaseener*

      I wouldn’t read anything into the lack of LinkedIn views! Not everyone’s going to look at your LinkedIn, especially in the early screening rounds. I would just assume they’re moving slowly.

  130. Eden*

    I agree with Alison’s “assume no job” advice of course, but if a manager invited you to apply I would think it’s very appropriate to cheerfully reach out to that manager after 2 weeks and ask about a timeline! Not endlessly but once seems fine. I’m not a hiring manager though.

    I wouldn’t worry about the LI views. Not everyone uses the setting of letting people see their page views.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Yes, it’s ok to reach out ONCE and very briefly.
      I usually wait until after I’ve had some contact (phone screen or interview). However, if someone there invited you to apply, then you could let them know you’ve applied on x-date and ask what their timeline might be.

      But 2 weeks isn’t really all that long, they’re probably still reviewing applications.

  131. Feeling better*

    I know I’m late so not expecting any replies, just writing for my own relief. Work, leadership and depression.

    Work caused me to have a breakdown. I thought it was just burnout, but it spiralled into depression and I had to start medication and take a chunk of time off. I’m feeling better now which I’m so thankful for, but I’m so anxious about returning to the place that caused these issues in the first place. Management have tried to put in place some solutions but I’m sceptical about them – I’m trying to be optimistic and think of the best case scenario but I’m worried about my capacity to return to that role and those pressures again. I’ve been off work for several months now and need to return from a finances point of view, but I’m also feeling like I want to be back in the workplace again and using my brain, so taking even longer off isn’t inviting or really an option. How do people cope with depression that has been quite debilitating and being in high pressure, demanding-from-the-offset leadership positions?

    1. usernames are anonymous*

      Would talking with a therapist and planning ahead for possible issues in the workplace be an option? You can brainstorm what concerns you have about going back to work, what problems you think may arise and have a plan for how to respond/act if they do happen. I know I’ve found I can cope better if I do that rather than try and wing it and see what happens

    2. Camelid coordinator*

      If you could change one thing, what would it be? Could that be tackled through a formal accommodation request? I am wondering if you could adjust your tasks, work from home in the middle of the week to give you a break from the environment, or change something else about the work or the office setup.

      1. Camelid coordinator*

        Also, if the pressures are inherent to the work, I wonder if maybe this is not the job for you at this point. Can you use your brain and your skills in a position that wouldn’t be as problematic for you?

  132. Worker bee*

    I’ve been asked to conduct a training for a handful of people I work with and I’d like some advice and perspective.

    Some quick background. About two years ago, a group of people at my company had a meeting with our software developers and they mentioned a program that is built into the software that would streamline a particular process. I wasn’t in the meeting, but heard all about it because of people grumbling after that they didn’t know anything about this program. Then COVID hit and it was forgotten until recently when the owner approached me and asked me to do a project, using that program.

    My learning curve was somewhat steep, as I had never seen the program before and the documentation from the software company was laughably outdated. I ended up spending several hours working with another higher up in our company to figure things out, as the owner was out of town. I have since learned the program, think it’s awesome, and could significantly reduce the data entry time for several people.

    My concern is that, while I know the program, I’m unsure of my ability to teach it to others effectively. It’s not a difficult program, but it uses spreadsheets and there are many steps that have to be done in a certain order.

    My plan is to add/edit the documentation from the company to use as a handout. I’ll briefly explain what the program does and its limitations, do a step by step demonstration myself, then ask each of the participants to do it themselves. There will be 4-5 people in the meeting, so everyone will get to see it done several times, as well giving it a try, and people are free to ask questions along the way. Does that sound good? Is there something else useful that I’m missing? I want this to be beneficial to my coworkers, particularly because I believe that this is the way the owner would like to move forward with this part of the job.

    On to my concern. I have a coworker who will be attending this meeting who is a relentlessly negative person. In her view, everyone else are lazy, stupid, and don’t do half the work she does. This attitude would be irrelevant in regards to this training, except using this program requires using Excel files converted to csv, which she is not familiar with. She is also very set in her ways, which makes for a “fun” combination. And by set in her ways, she gets spreadsheets emailed to her daily and if she can’t see all the data on the email preview page, she will print it rather than download it to her computer and will use a ruler and (occasionally) a magnifying glass to manually type in the data.

    When we found out about this program a couple of years ago, she complained bitterly for weeks about why we never knew about it and why we weren’t using it. I know this woman well, as we used to be good friends (she has become standoffish and snippy with me at work in recent months and borderline hostile in social situations), so I have an idea how this will go. She will ask a million questions in the training (totally fine), then will complain to me later that I didn’t explain clearly, the documentation is terrible, it’s too complicated, and she’ll just do it the way she knows. This isn’t me predicting doom and gloom; she did that exact thing with another program a couple of years ago and still complains about it.

    I don’t expect any hostility from her during the meeting, as her boss (and possibly the owner) will be attending, but is there anything I can do to try to minimize the complaining after the training? I’m completely fine with answering questions or doing additional one on one training with those who will be attending, but I feel like I should draw the line on things like teaching her the absolute basics of using Excel.

    1. A Genuine Scientician*

      So, caveat that I’m a science professor, so I’m used to teaching when I have some formal authority. But what I think would be a reasonable approach here:

      1. Create a few standard examples of what you’re using the software to do.
      2. Talk briefly about what the major goals of doing this are, so people who aren’t sure know why this is a thing.
      3. Work through one example. Quite possibly one you’ve done before, so you can take screen caps of the important parts and include them in a handout. As you work through your demo example, explain both a) what you’re doing, and b) why you’re doing it. Invite people to ask questions along the way.
      4. Have all the participants work through a second example, primarily on their own, while you field questions when they get stuck.
      5. Have people report back to the group what they found most challenging. If people are hesitant to speak up, either (if in person) pass out index cards, or (if virtual) have them send you a private message with a) what was clearest, and b) what was least clear.
      6. Work through a second example, possibly a little more complicated than your first one, again narrating as you do it both what you’re doing and why. Depending on your audience, you might choose to make this one a little more interactive, asking things like “Any suggestions for what we would do next here?”
      7. Give everyone 2-3 additional examples to work through, and encourage them to ask each other about anything they’re unclear on, while you field questions.
      8. Now that they’ve worked through multiple examples, ask them if they noticed anything that could be more efficient. This signals a) you don’t assume you know everything, and b) you’re open to suggestions. This will do a lot to reduce the ability of a very negative person to undermine you. Both very important when you’re in more of a peer role than an authority role.

      1. Worker bee*

        Thank you, A Genuine Scientician! That is very helpful to me, even though not all of those steps will be applicable to my purpose. I think I will come up with several different sets of data for my part of the training. I can do one without much commentary, one with a step by step commentary, and ones that I will hide things that could be problematic. I know some things will be an issue, but apparently neglected to give them the proper time to be addressed.

        As far as screencaps, I’m a HUGE fan of doing those. I’ve done about 4 training manuals for various things and they’ve all been highly praised. I’m a visual person, so if I’m not familiar with whatever, telling me whatever is going to be useless.

        As far as your step 6 goes, that’s what I was think would happen when the participants try it on their own. Basically, when Lucy does it, I’ll be there to guide her and answer any questions she or others have as she does it. And since there’s no time limit, we can take as much time as we need for everyone to understand.

        I also love the idea of asking for follow up questions. And though we all work the same small building, I think I will ask for any questions or comments to go through email, so I won’t forget and can forward my responses to the others.

        Thank you so much, A Genuine Scientician. The last time I did any kind of group training, it was in political canvassing (avoid hostile dogs, hostile people, and move along when asked). The training I’ve done since has been one on one “in the field”, so this whole conference room training thing is new to me.

        1. A Frayed Knot*

          Great plan! I would try to use data that Lucy is familiar with as one of the examples. It will provide her with a comfort level to start, and also demonstrate the value of the program in a very concrete way for her. Bonus if she can save the demonstration for future use!

  133. lesbrarianstereotype*

    So I work in a really fast-paced, ludicrously busy and understaffed environment. My boss has several times asked me to come in on my days off to help out. I usually say yes, because I Love Money. He schedules me for six-hour shifts on these days, usually. He told me I don’t get a lunch break on these days, which I found out today is super duper illegal in my state! I’d just not thought to look into it further. It’s been a long time since I was employed by someone other than myself. I’m so glad my coworkers said something. I shouldn’t have trusted him. Now I know how terrible he is about obeying labor laws, based on several stories from my coworkers. Yikes. I’m on my lunch now and savoring every minute.

  134. Boss is so cringe*

    I realize you’re not normally supposed to say anything negative about your current employer in a job interview.

    However, my manager just compared vaccine mandates to literal slavery, saying it’s so unfortunate that young people have to choose to give up their careers if they want to avoid the government’s chains (what).

    Is using this as my reason for job hunting appropriate? I really don’t want to end up working for someone else who thinks being required to get a vaccine as part of your job and Africans being transported to North and South America in chains are in any way shape or form equivalent….

    1. Anonymous Luddite*

      As egregious as the comparison is, I would soften it in interviews to something along the lines of “They did not take the pandemic and employee safety seriously.”

    2. Tali*

      I mean, I wouldn’t say that is my reason in an interview (Luddite’s suggestion is great), but you can certainly use that as your personal reason to start job hunting. That would absolutely trigger me to start job hunting too.

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