open thread – November 19-20, 2021

by Alison Green on November 19, 2021

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. my kingdom for a desk*

    2019 – my office had assigned seats, everyone had their own desk, it was great.

    Early 2020 – we moved to a new office, started hot desking.
    I hated it, but as an early bird I got a desk almost every day, so it was mostly meh.

    Now – we’re reopening the office, without any more hot desking. But there’s still not enough desks for everyone, so a handful of people (myself included) do not have assigned desks. We’re encouraged to use the collaboration seats instead (this is made up of couches, long tables, etc – spots that don’t have office chairs or external monitors)

    If the only option in office is sitting on a couch with my laptop, I can do that at home.
    Is it unreasonable to say I don’t want to come back until I have an actual desk?

    Is there a way to phase that doesn’t sound like an ultimatum?

    1. Don't Touch My Snacks*

      I would go about it as they should of course give you the items you need to complete your job without injuring yourself (I cannot imagine that having to work all day without a decent office chair and desk set up is good ergonomics) but until that comes through you will need to work from home so you can have a proper work set up.

      1. I'm Stef*

        I think more than talking about ergonomics in relation to injuries (which is a fair point and bound to happen, but would open a whole conversation about health which I personally would not want to go into if I am fairly healthy person compared to my colleagues and that would start a “you better than them” kind of convo), I would personally lean toward relating it to how your productivity is affected.
        If I were to work on a couch without a second monitor, my productivity would decline by at least 50% because a) I’d need to take a walk more often as I would have the worst posture and b) I couldn’t open multiple windows at once and all my Excel files with multiple references and copy and pasting and formulas would take at least double the time.

        1. Lauren*

          this. not being able to have a stable work area to complete complex tasks with a larger monitor will make my position untenable.

      2. Momma Bear*

        Agreed. And honestly ergonomics aside, sometimes you’re just not as productive in one seating area as another, so if you don’t get the table space, will you be as effective on the sofa? There’s a certain level of mindset that comes with a good workspace or just knowing where you will be working that day. It is one thing to sometimes work from a small screen but if you really need dual monitors and/or just a bigger external monitor, I’d ask for those things. I’d say, “Boss, I understand the thought behind allowing people to chose shared spaces, but I’m finding that it’s not productive for me because….Can I either be provided x and y specific things or continue to work from home where I have x and y things until a desk can be assigned?”

        1. I'm just here for the cats!*

          good point. Plus if someone sees you working on the couch will they come up to you and start chatting more than they would at your desk? I could see someone (especially someone who is chatty and not good with social cues or boundaries) seeing you at the couch and think you were not working and would keep interrupting you.

    2. OtterB*

      Can you talk about the ergonomics? That working without an external monitor or office chair is fine for a little while if you’re meeting with people about something, but not for full time?

    3. Beth*

      I just . . . do NOT understand the brain function of any workplace that won’t provide its employees with a place to work. Whyyyyyyy.

      I have no suggestions to offer for phrasing, but you are absolutely NOT being unreasonable.

      1. hamsterpants*

        This happened to my husband. The answer was lack of planning and prioritizing an aesthetic over utility. In my husband’s case they picked out the desks and didn’t realize they couldn’t fit enough desks for everyone until everything was already purchased and set up. Luckily for him he prefers work from home and his bosses were fine with that as a solution.

    4. Jovana*

      If your workplace has anything like a “health & safety” office or even just a webpage purporting to care about that kind of thing, you can point to it and describe *specific* ergonomic requirements (e.g. screen at eye level to avoid neck strain, meaning laptop stand or monitor required; seat armrests at height so that elbows are parallel to desk surface, etc.) I have had multiple pains/injuries over the years due to improper work area setup and you should warn that it’s a real thing!

      1. Texan In Exile*

        (Diverging from the topic, but OldJob only gave armrests to people above a certain position level. I hope they don’t do that anymore.)

    5. Generic Name*

      Are they demanding you come into the office? If not, I’d just work from home and if anyone questions you why, you can say that you have no place to actually physically work at the office.

        1. Applesauced*

          Yep, we’ve been “strongly encouraged” to come in, and I’ve been casually pressured to come in…. the phrase “out of sight out of mind” came up.
          It will be mandatory in January.

    6. anonymous73*

      Ditto on ergonomics and also space. Not sure what kind of work you do, but if I only had a laptop screen to work from I would be so much less productive. I need additional monitors to view multiple screens at once to accomplish most of my tasks and it would take me so much longer without them. Not to mention being uncomfortable on a couch all day. Plus if you don’t have a desk, what are you suppose to do with your equipment when you have to use the bathroom, go to the kitchen, etc.? Carry it around with you? Do they expect you to carry around a backpack full of essentials in the office (pens, notebooks, stapler, paper clips, etc.)? If they want you back in the office, it’s not unreasonable to expect appropriate accommodations and that doesn’t include a couch. I would be fuming.

      1. Storm in a teacup*

        I agree totally with other commentators re: ergonomics and health issues – your workplace Health and Safety officer should be able to advise (or HR).
        When in the office are you mostly in meetings and not so often involved in desk work? Do they expect you to be talking to people F2F? I’m just wondering who thought this was a viable idea!
        If you’re on a hybrid office/ WfH schedule would one interim solution be to have a few hot desks for staff to share and have a schedule of who is in when.
        Otherwise if you don’t have a space to be in the office then continue to WfH?
        Surely one solution is to convert the flex collab spaces into desks for those without ones?

        1. Carol the happy elf*

          Hot desking in a pandemic. Not just no, but HELL, no. Sitting on a “Mama Bear” couch, while trying to type. No. Using a table as a desk, in a business building?!?
          (Although a friend of mine came in to find their older cloth-covered chairs all gone, and plexiglass carrels (sp?) at a conference table, with new holes drilled for cordage. This went on for 2 weeks while people chose and ordered their new office chairs.)
          But hot-desking? Not enough desks, chairs, etc.? NopeNopeNope.
          Stand your ground, sweetie. There is NO reason they can’t figure this out.
          Heck, we even have our own AREAS because-Pandemic is still upon us. Some areas are like a funhouse with plexi dividers and disinfectant spray bottles on Command hooks. It’s no longer funny walking into an invisible wall, so most of us have put bandaids on the plexiglass to see where it is through our face shields.

      2. alienor*

        Way back in the 80s, I briefly attended an elementary school where we didn’t have desks. Everyone had a Rubbermaid-type container with a lid that doubled as a writing surface and contained all their workbooks, pencils, pens, scissors etc. In the morning you’d come in, grab your container out of a cubby, and take it to the spot on the rug where your first subject of the day was being taught. Then, when it was over, you’d put all your things back in your container, pick it up again, and move to another part of the room for your second subject and so on. (Each classroom was a “pod” of several rooms that had had the internal walls knocked down and a hub area installed at the center for the teaching team, so it was a very large space.) It was kind of weird-but-cool for me as a fourth grader, but I definitely don’t want to work that way as an adult!

        1. MissDisplaced*

          In the 70’s when I was in 1st and 2nd grade (about 6 or 7 years old) I also went to a similar “Open Space” elementary school. I remember a lot of sitting and writing and even eating lunch on the floor with our lunch trays!
          I don’t get why these companies think their employees would want to work on their computer on a sofa all day? It wasn’t even fun as a 7 year old.

    7. lex talionis*

      Maybe show up and just find yourself a spot in the office of whoever is in charge of physical plant and who’s poor planning caused this issue?

      1. Carol the happy elf*

        I like that. It would also be amusing if you could steal their chair and desk, and leave them with a butt-ball to sit on, and a foldy card table. With a plant.

    8. Observer*

      I’m with the people who say just keep working at home. When they ask why you are not back in the office, point out that you are not being given a space where you can actually get work done consistently.

    9. Dee Dee*

      Welp, after 20(?) months, they’re talking about returning to the office. I’m in Canada where they’ve taken things a lot slower than other places in terms of opening up, which I am grateful for. But when it comes to going back to the office, I’m still not sold on the necessity. The justification they gave was literally that “Good things happen when people get together,” which, sure, but at the same time, we’ve probably been more productive since WFH started and I’m not exactly eager to go back in the office and elevators and all that so I can sit on Zoom calls with people in the other office allay.

      We’ve been super cautious—we have a child for whom vaccines were approved only today–and selfishly I’ve really enjoyed not having to ride the bus in to work each day. At the same time, I think my wife, who was working from home pre-COVID, will probably be glad to have the house to herself a day or two a week at least.

    10. LCH*

      if you need a laptop for your job and can’t just perform it using a tablet, then you need a desk. or a lap that is up near your chest.

    11. I'm just here for the cats!*

      I would mention that you cannot do your job productively or in a safe way. Working sitting on a couch and hunched over your laptop is a great way to have back problems. When I had to work from home my back issues started up again, because I didn’t have the greatest chair. I was able to fix my situation and so should your company.
      Also, if your work would be better with a bigger monitor/ second monitor then that is another plus.
      They should really take a look and find some space for everyone, or maybe there is a way for some to work from home?

    12. TM*

      If your options regularly include not having a desk, you can bring up ergonomics. Even if you don’t have an issue with it now, not having a supportive chair or a desk can lead to problems in a hurry. If they push back, you can always contact your doctor for a note regarding poor ergonomics and how they would impact your health.

      I have a standing desk at work and home but if my office just gave me some rinky dink couch to sit on, I would be headed to HR with a note from my doc/PT asking for accommodations. I have spent a lot of time and money to figure out how to minimize pain and maximize efficiency while doing my job and I’m not letting my employer re-injure me because they don’t have a desk for me.

    13. Echo*

      If you have a fairly good relationship with your direct manager, “I’ve been finding it really difficult to do XYZ in the collaboration space and that I’ve been much more productive at home where I have a dedicated, quiet workspace. Would it be possible to work from home on a more permanent basis?” If they respond by saying they want you to be in because of some specific meeting or in-person brainstorm, you could then offer to come in just for those.

      If you don’t expect your manager to be reasonable about this, or if your manager has clearly communicated they’re powerless here, then I think this becomes a “find like-minded coworkers and push back as a group” situation.

    14. Purple Cat*

      WHAT? You can’t leave only a handful of people hotdesking – without even real desks.
      I wouldn’t go back to the office, just kindly but firmly state that you need reasonable working accommodations – aka an actual desk/monitor/chair/etc.

    15. SentientAmoeba*

      You know where I have a dedicated work space? At my house. I’ll be working there for most of the foreseeable future.

    17. Dragon*

      A friend who works for the government, initially turned down a transfer offer because he discovered during the pandemic he hates telecommuting.

      The new job reduced and reconfigured their office space for a hybrid work schedule for everyone. They never anticipated that someone wouldn’t want to WFH. So while my friend is allowed to come into the office every day, he’s gotta hot-desk it.

      On a different note, I don’t know where management anywhere ever got the idea about collaboration in the office. Admin assistants can’t even get bosses to come into the office on days when a big project is due. We need answers to questions to get the project done, and we’re competing for their attention with everyone else who is bombarding them with emails.

    18. someone*

      Tell them you learned from the enforced WFH that you need a real office chair and desk to be productive for work. I tried working my my couch for a week and my back started complaining (mid 30s). I have no problems lounging on a couch every evening but working off a laptop on the couch every day was too much.

  2. Emily*

    My coworker is always so unclear and confusing in her emails. She will say something like, “the market share of account X dropped 15% last week”. She’ll give a vague statement, with no context or no direction how to respond.

    When someone sends an unclear email, what is the best way to respond instead of replying “what are you asking? Are you saying a statement? Are you asking a question? What do you want me to do?”

    2. RitaRelates*

      I’ve had that happen before and just said “thank you for the information.” They followed up with additional instruction after that, so maybe you can try that.

      1. Up and Away*

        You could even build on this by saying, “thank you for the information, do you require anything from me?”

    3. Elle*

      I would say something like – “thank you for this information, let me know if there’s any action you need from me!”

      1. High Score!*

        I wouldn’t thank someone for random information that I didn’t request and won’t help me. That will only encourage then to send more random stuff that I have to take time to read and will thus distract me from getting actual work done

        1. Usagi*

          Can I ask what you would say instead? I realize this might come across as kind of snarky, I promise I don’t mean it that way and am honestly asking.

          1. Mimi*

            In a less formal workplace you could probably get away with something like, “Okay! Is there anything you need from us?” but that wouldn’t fly everywhere.

            1. Usagi*

              Ah I see, that makes sense! As you said, it might not apply to all workplaces, but I think I could use that at my office, if need be. Thank you!

          2. Vanilla Bean*

            “I’m not sure I understand why you’re telling me this. Do you need me to do something with this information?

            1. Usagi*

              I don’t think I could pull that off without sounding sarcastic! But then again I’m kind of a sarcastic person to begin with. I appreciate the response though. Maybe I need to work on my “genuinely confused” face/tone haha

    4. Siege (The other one)*

      I deal a lot with this in my job via chat. One of my job functions is to be available for questions from my coworkers, but sometimes they’ll post the most inane or random stuff, with no specific request. I usually start with “Hi ______! What can I assist you with?” Or “Is there a way I can be of assistance with this?”

      It’s a little different cause it’s chat, but I find the important part is the open/closer because they soften the message of “what do you want” with the subtext of “why tf are you tagging me.”

    5. Cat Tree*

      If she’s junior to you or even lateral, it might help to have a big-picture conversation. I’ve done it before and frame it as, “I can help you better/faster if you provide me with XYZ details”. And it usually helps to a certain extent. As long as you frame it as how it can benefit them and give specific advice for what to do (rather than telling them they’re doing it wrong) people are often receptive.

      1. socks*

        I use this all the time. If that feels a little too curt: “Hi so-and-so! Is this just an FYI or is there action needed on my end?”

    7. anonymous73*

      I wouldn’t respond. In the example you’ve given, there is no reason to respond. It may seem passive aggressive, but unless someone specifically asks for something (feedback, answer to a question, clarification, etc.) I see an email as informative only. If they do pose some sort of question or request, and it’s unclear what they need, send back specific questions for clarification on what you need to provide in response.

    8. Ina Lummick*

      I have to ask external clients want they want. Often they say “I’d like the Teapot please and that is all they know that they need.”

      I’ll reply something back like: “Can you provide further details on your query or clarify what you’re looking to achieve?”

    9. blood orange*

      Saying “Thanks for the information. Let me know if you want to discuss any details” would probably do fine. However, she’ll likely keep doing this if you respond like that. If you don’t mind that, I’d go that route. If the emails feel like kind of a nuisance, you could bring it up with her coming from a place of needing clarity. “Hey, when you send emails with an update for me, are you just sharing information that you think I’d benefit from, or are you looking to discuss something?”

    10. Buni*

      ugh, one of my bosses does this and it drives me nuts. My response these days is to read it, make sure I know the info if asked, and then ignore it and get on with my day. Usually there won’t be any context – it won’t even be mentioned again – for a couple of days

    11. Reply to Emily*

      Doesn’t anybody pick up the phone and say, “Hi, I got your email, and I don’t see any action you’re asking me to take?”

      I’ve found that replying to a confusing email usually produces more confusion. Some people just aren’t good at email.

      1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

        Yup, old millennial here and asking in person or over the phone is my first go-to if I don’t understand something. The phone-averse office makes me crazy because solving things takes so much longer over email! A conversation usually clears it up and it’s so. much. faster. than four emails back and forth or even on a DM chain.

        “Hey, I see that email you sent but I’m not sure what you’re trying to tell me” — 90% of the time that solves it all.

    12. Asenath*

      I had one co-worker who not only sent vague emails, but sent two or three follow-ups. I just waited to respond until I was sure I had all of her follow-ups and then sent a brief (and I hope clear) question about anything that remained unclear.

      1. AnonymousADD*

        I used to be that person! Thankfully, I’ve since been diagnosed with adult ADD and can focus better with treatment. Not speculating that your coworker is, just cringing a bit at past-me and feeling relieved.

    13. SpaceySteph*

      One of my coworkers pioneered “Help me understand…” and then repeating back their insane statement to them.

    14. MissDisplaced*

      It’s highly possible they don’t actually want anything and are just sharing something they found interesting to the business. They’re just not prefacing that in their email, which can seem odd if you don’t get that this is unsaid. My team often does this kind of thing about customers or technology—often they just drop a link.

      Generally, read and absorb, or respond with some variation of “Thanks for the information. Let me know if you want to take action on anything.”

    15. Just Another Admin*

      I’ve used “I’m confused, do you need a specific task completed in relation to this information” before with some success. And the “I’m confused” part was me being polite when I wanted to say “WTF are you talking about?”. When the same people got more than one “I’m confused” reply, some of them started sending better emails.

      These days an email like that would get deleted with no response. If they followed up later I’d be pretty blunt that their email contained no actionable information, so I removed it from my queue. But I’m at the point where I’m literally expected to complete a task every 20 minutes or so, from contracts to background checks, and I literally do not have the time to decode someone else’s vaguemail.

  3. Unlimited Questioner*

    What are your experiences with unlimited PTO?

    My company just announced it as a response to our collective burnout….but we’re so understaffed, I’m afraid it’s a mistake. Most of us already don’t use the PTO we have, and I feel like this will just mean we don’t get to roll anything over into the next year, without actually fixing anything.

    They’re giving us a goal of 10 weeks PTO per year, including sick, personal, vacation, and holiday time. Does that sound right to you for a nonprofit office? (As with most nonprofits, we have lower salaries than others in our field, and our benefits are middling, but not terribly generous.)

    1. Not a Name Today*

      It hasn’t worked out for me. I take less time than when I had formally allocated PTO. In the last year I managed 7 days off and no days off the year before.
      And there is an expectation that you will be available on vacation, holidays, and weekends because you have unlimited PTO and can take off anytime!
      There was a push to require a minimum amount of PTO per year, to more of less give permission to staff to take a vacation, but it was ignored.

      1. MacGillicuddy*

        If they want you to be available on vacation, holidays and weekends, it’s not PTO . The O stands for Off!

        Being available means you are ON.

        So your company in reality doesn’t offer any time off.

    2. Dasein9*

      I find that having people in the office who talk about the benefits of using PTO and who encourage each other to use PTO while never asking judgemental questions about how the PTO is used tends to result in people using their time and being less burnt out.

      10 weeks seems high to me, but if you’re underpaid in dollars (or euros or yen), giving back time may be a compromise that works for many.

      1. Fran Fine*

        YES to your first paragraph. We have normalized taking time off and talking about it on my team, and we’re all better off for it. My company was also very flexible to begin with, so I never felt awkward for taking my well-deserved PTO.

    3. T. Boone Pickens*

      10 weeks of PTO would be incredible…if you’re able to use it. From a consultant perspective, I lean towards not loving unlimited PTO because I’ve only run into a few companies where it’s used effectively. That being said, those places run like well-oiled machines but are sadly, the exception and not the norm. The vast majority of the companies I’ve seen do it are because they are trying to cheap out on not having to pay PTO out when employees leave the company. I hope your company is one of the outliers…

      1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

        The not-for-profit where I worked (retired about 10 years now) had 4 weeks vacation, 12 sick days (later changed to 8), 2 personal days (later changed to 4) and I think 8 holidays. So a lot of them have generous time off to somewhat mitigate the usually-low pay.

    4. Zephy*

      My company just announced it as a response to our collective burnout….but we’re so understaffed, I’m afraid it’s a mistake. Most of us already don’t use the PTO we have, and I feel like this will just mean we don’t get to roll anything over into the next year, without actually fixing anything.

      I think you’re probably right about this, unfortunately.

      By “goal” do you mean they expect everyone to take 10 weeks PTO for the year? Or “we’re calling it ‘unlimited’ but that’s the official-unofficial limit”? Because 10 weeks is extremely generous but again, I think you’re right to be wary of this “unlimited” policy, if you’re already functionally unable to use the PTO you do have and the only real change will be that you don’t accrue it anymore and therefore it can’t be paid out (since it’s “unlimited”).

      1. Unlimited Questioner*

        I’m not sure what they mean, though it was said that they don’t expect anyone to take more than 3 consecutive weeks off. The exact words were that that they want everyone to “get as close to that as possible” and I think they expect us not to go over.

        It’s not that different from what we have now (15 holidays when the office is closed, 13 combined sick & personal days, and 10-20 vacation days, based on tenure). I think I’d be fine with the change if the issue was with people hitting their PTO limit all the time and not getting time off even when their work was getting done. But with people unable to take that time off because of coverage issues/too many responsibilities per person, I’m not so sure.

        1. Momma Bear*

          Ah. So it sounds like they see that there’s burnout but are not really addressing the root cause which is things like workload. I would not be thrilled to have a carrot I couldn’t eat.

        2. someone*

          It doesn’t sound like anything will change unfortunately. If you’re already getting good enough PTO but nobody’s actually taking it, renaming it to unlimited PTO won’t magically change your office culture to one where it’s expected and encouraged to take the time.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I think they mean 10 weeks, especially when you factor in holidays (often there are 10 days or so just of those). It’s not unusual for nonprofits to give huge amounts of time off in exchange for low pay, though that’s still on the high end I’d say.

        1. Loulou*

          Yeah, I have ~15 paid holidays plus about the same in vacation days, but thats only 6 weeks. So it would take another month to get up to 10! I’m not counting sick leave since hopefully I wouldn’t need to use my maximum allowance, though of course it’s important to have it.

      2. Unlimited Questioner*

        No, I mean 10 weeks, or 50 days.

        It’s not that different from what we have now (15 holidays when the office is closed, 13 combined sick & personal days, and 10-20 vacation days, based on tenure). But most of us already aren’t taking all of that because we don’t have anyone to cover us when we’re out, so it doesn’t seem realistic.

        2. Loulou*

          Well also, hopefully most people aren’t out sick for two weeks a year! It doesn’t seem like a problem that people aren’t using their full sick leave, but it would be a serious issue if people were working instead of taking sick days because of coverage issues.

          Maybe I’m not understanding this, though, because I’ve never worked somewhere with sick/personal days — just paid holidays, sick days, and annual leave.

          1. Strict Extension*

            I used to work somewhere where the vast majority of the staff was providing necessary coverage and unexpected absences could cause a painful domino effect. There the distinction was that vacation time was planned in advance and requested so that the work schedule could be made without that person in mind. Personal/sick days were any absence that couldn’t be planned for far enough in advance to do that. So if I found out on Monday that I needed to attend a funeral on Friday or had to take a day off for emergency car repairs, those PTO days came out of the sick/personal stock (of which there were noticeably less, since you’d only want to use them when unavoidable) whereas my vacation days were intended for planned (and hopefully more relaxing and enjoyable) activities.

            Now I’m somewhere that most folks being gone most days wouldn’t effect much beyond their own workflow, so everything is just in one big PTO bucket.

            1. Loulou*

              Interesting! I see the logic in the system you described. I’m in a job that sounds similar (and is very coverage based) and we’d use annual leave for your personal days. It’s sort of a bummer to have to use days that could have been for a true vacation to let in the plumber, but I also do feel better not using up my sick time for it.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          Sounds like it’s all smoke and mirrors to me.

          I like to do the math on these things.
          We had a set number of days for each category so nothing was unlimited at all.
          This is just the calculation for vacation time: There were 7 of us. Most of us had 4 weeks of vacation time but some had a few days more, so let’s just say 4 weeks times 7. This was 28 weeks every year that we were down one person.
          As you say here, we were barely getting by if everyone showed up. With those 28 weeks (we had to go one at a time, which was more problems) IF someone called in sick it was pure misery to be down two people.

          Yet every time this happened (often) management was totally shocked and bewildered, “How did we get two people off at the same time?” They never bothered doing the math and realizing that over half the year we would be down a person. It was time to hire another person because of all the PTO. This never, ever occurred to them.

          Because management had no plan on how to handle the staff shortages, we knew that taking any PTO was frowned upon. And, indeed, it was.
          Companies that give benefits that are not useable have given the employee nothing. But the company has encouraged employees to become more and more disgruntled.

      1. Jill of All Trades*

        Seriously. I had unlimited PTO at my last company and was explicitly told by my boss to aim for 15 days a year. 3 weeks. Deeeefinitely not 10.

    7. Beth*

      My current company has “unlimited” PTO. It just barely works, sort of, because we’re an incredibly small company, we have sufficient staff, and everyone has about the same work ethic. If any of that changes, it will go down in flames. It’s already gotten wobbly this year, from pandemic stresses.

      It is absolutely not a solution for burnout, especially when you’re understaffed. You’ll end up taking even less time, in an atmosphere of “Well, you could have taken all the time off that you wanted, it must be your fault if you haven’t made this work.”

      They need to bring your staffing up to strength. If they don’t, they aren’t addressing the problem, they’re avoiding it.

    8. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve loved it, but that’s just because my manager is good. It really depends on your manager and company culture. If your manager won’t approve time off and/or your company culture shames people for taking too much time off (or overburdens you with work to the point where you feel you can’t take time off), then “unlimited PTO” isn’t going to work.

    9. Momma Bear*

      Where I had unlimited PTO I was also hourly so YMMV. I could take the time off, but didn’t get paid, so that was an incentive to work and use the days off wisely. Do you often roll over? Do you save PTO for trips or surgery or other specific things? A goal of 10 weeks of combined leave doesn’t sound bad, actually. I get less than that + government holidays, but no sick leave. It will probably also matter if they treat you like you are completely offline or if you’ll be expected to check in. What would be the method for requesting/using it?

      1. KRM*

        Yes, if this is going to work, it has to be ‘unlimited PTO and company requires you to take a minimum of X days (15-20, I would hope)’. So you have the flexibility of unlimited days, especially in emergencies, but you also HAVE to take vacation.

    11. Dwight Schrute*

      My boyfriends office seems to have struck the right balance- they truly encourage everyone to take a minimum of 3-4 weeks off and don’t ask any questions when you do take off. He’s been able to take time off with no issues, no guilt, etc

    12. Hiring Mgr*

      Some places that have unlimited PTO also have minimums that everyone has to take to ensure that it gets taken. But it sounds like being understaffed is the bigger concern.

      (Also, not sure what you mean about not rolling over – if it’s unlimited you don’t need to?)

    13. CanadianUniversityGrad*

      I have unlimited PTO. This is my first job out of school so I’m not familiar with other set-ups. I really love having it and I think my company handles it really well. By the end of the year, I’ll have taken a little over 7 weeks of PTO. My company doesn’t have a goal so some people take more and others take less. They do mandate that you take 2 weeks of PTO if you have under 5 years of experience.

    14. vma*

      My last company changed to unlimited PTO and it worked out well. I didn’t see a huge change in how people used it, meaning people who didn’t take time off still didn’t and I wasn’t aware of anyone abusing it. The biggest benefit for me was that I took a lot more random Mondays or Fridays off because I didn’t need to “save” my PTO for the holidays or a summer trip. However, the culture certainly was that PTO requests were never denied, people’s actual lives took priority, and we could always find another way to get the work done. And this was in silicon valley tech. If your culture isn’t like that, that’s the problem, not PTO amounts.

      1. cat socks*

        Agreed. This has been my experience as well. My company does unlimited PTO and it works well because of the company culture around vacations and time off. A few weeks ago, I had a free afternoon without any meetings. I stopped working a few hours early and ran some errands. I like having the flexibility to do things like that without having to use vacation time.

    15. Librar**

      My spouse’s company has unlimited PTO that does not include holidays (10 days throughout the year) . He makes a point to use 40 days/year, which ends up being equivalent to your 10 weeks when you add the holidays back in.
      His job currently slightly underpays for his field, and this is the amount of PTO that he feels is necessary for him to have the work/life balance that he’d lose if he took a higher paying position.
      All of that to say, it works for him, but it requires a level of intentionality that I don’t have to worry about with my 24 days/year “use it or lose it” PTO. He has to make sure all projects are on track and that there is someone to cover if he takes a truly no-contact PTO day. If his team is in a pinch, a PTO day becomes a “check email from the couch and maybe hop on a call” day. Since PTO is no longer a limited resource, some of the sacredness of using PTO is lost and boundaries can easily get pretty blurry. When I use one of my 24 days, my office recognizes that I’m cashing in a limited resource and tends to be more respectful of me using a benefit.
      I’d ask about how your company plans to handle support while you’re each using PTO, especially since you’re already understaffed. Will they maintain a true no contact on PTO policy? What is the plan for emergencies? Also, check if there are limits on how much PTO can be used at once. You want to be wary of a situation where taking a day or 2 here frequently is ok, but there’s pushback if you ever try to be out for a week.

    16. anonymous73*

      Well if you have unlimited PTO there would be nothing to roll over. And what do you mean by “goal” of 10 weeks? They want everyone to shoot to take that much time off per year, or that’s actually the max?

      If you’re understaffed, you need to have a realistic conversation with your manager about expectations.

    17. New Mom*

      The thing with unlimited PTO is that the company doesn’t need to pay you out when you leave. So if you had three week’s of unused vacation when you leave a company, my understanding is that they owe you $ for those three weeks. With unlimited PTO the company doesn’t have to pay you for time not taken. It also isn’t looked at time that they owe you, if you get 15 PTO days a year, the company owes you that time off, but with unlimited it seems like companies and managers view that time differently.

      If the company can guarantee that you get ten weeks, you should try to use that all. At my nonprofit, we get three weeks of paid office closure throughout the year and usually four day weekends for federal holidays, most people take a week for Thanksgiving and then I get about 25 days a year that stops accruing at 37 days. I’ve found it hard to take 25 days off a year on top of everything we already get off and my busy schedule but whenever I get close to 37 I make sure to take a few days off because then I’d be losing money.

      1. Fran Fine*

        It’s not legally required in every state for a company to pay out unused vacation time to employees when they leave.

    18. Quinalla*

      I don’t have experience with it, but it is NOT a solution to burnout when you are understaffed. They need get more staff and/or lower expectations of work that can be done and encourage you to use your PTO and make sure you have the support you need to actually feel like you can take it. 10 weeks total including vacation, sick, etc. sounds great, but if everyone is feeling they can’t take time off now, switching to unlimited is neutral at best, likely will make it worse.

    19. GarlicMicrowaver*

      It’s a dangling carrot. Sorry to say. I have been at my POE for 6 years and the only time I used up all my accrued PTO was for maternity, and returned starting at 0. This was over two years ago. I have about 7 weeks in my bank now, and we can accrue up to 10. I never take any time off because, when I do, all hell breaks looks. Sorry.

    20. Kiki*

      I had unlimited PTO and really loved it, but it was because our managers were genuinely very flexible with it and our office culture was one where folks didn’t have a “butts in seats” mentality. What made it work, though, was that managers were active in making sure they knew how time off would affect deliverable and workflows and coverage. Most employees were good about managing that on their own, but it was something managers had to keep an eye on.
      But if people are already not using all their allotted PTO, I feel like just giving people an unlimited amount, even if they say folks should target 10 weeks, won’t really address the issues of folks who don’t feel like they can take time off

    21. Cakeroll*

      My company has unlimited PTO, and this year I’ve taken (checks) 11 days. That includes a couple sick days (but not a few “I don’t feel well so I’m logging off early” days). Our company also does a lot of all-company bonus days off, which I think is a better way of “enforcing” anti-burnout time off. We close the week between Christmas and New Years, we closed for a “Spring Break” and a “Summer Break”, etc.

      Including all of those and US federal holidays (which I don’t file PTO for) it’s a grand total of 32 days I have, or will have, off this year: six and a half weeks. At previous “limited PTO” employers, a role at a similar level to mine would have come with 6 weeks of PTO on top of the federal holidays – and I would have been able to either use that, or cash it out.

      So “unlimited PTO” is rarely, if ever, an effective mechanism to give employees more time off. It’s incredibly effective, as Allison has noted before, at reducing the obligation on the employers account to pay out to leaving employees, and it’s effective for HR and management teams to make burnout and coverage “your problem” to solve rather than theirs. Even with the little bit of personal time off I’ve taken this year, the attitude among my coworkers has always been “oh my goodness you’re going to be unavailable? How will we possibly manage?! Will you log on to check on things a little bit while you’re away?”

    22. Koala dreams*

      No matter how reasonable the policy sounds on paper, it doesn’t matter if the company doesn’t actually approve the paid time off.

      I’m not too happy with the idea that time off is a solution to burnout. Burnout can be a serious illness. (Hopefully it won’t be in your case!) The company can help with reasonable workloads, better accomodations, better sick insurance, work from home for people who want it, reasonable breaks… Three weeks off is not enough if the work environment itself is making you ill.

    23. Shameless vacation-taker*

      I’m navigating this transition, too: I was at a university for much of my career, and I’ve now moved to a company with unlimited PTO. For all the reasons people have already mentioned, I think it’s a terrible system in general, and I was a bit nervous about how it would culturally work – but I’m also at the point in my life/career where I’m bold enough to take the time I think is fair and that the policy allows, and I’m not going to worry too much about how it’s perceived. The university gave 4 weeks of vacation, plus another week’s worth of personal time (effectively vacation), plus a paid week during winter break, plus the usual federal holidays. So that’s 6-7 weeks of time off a year, and I’m operating as if that’s still what I’m allowed. I try not to take vacation at hideously busy times, of course, but I choose to take the company at their word, and I wouldn’t stay very long at a place that promised a key benefit but never let me use it. Sounds like your organization needs to deal with staffing issues… maybe if people actually take the time that the leadership is encouraging, they’ll be forced to face the bigger problem?

    24. I'm just here for the cats!*

      I haven’t had Unlimited PTO but if your understaffed and burnt out it’s not going to help solve the issues your company has. Hopefully they see this, especially if people don’t start taking the PTO because of how busy it is.

    25. Been There Done That*

      Yeah….nonprofit fundraiser here. I get essentially 5 weeks of PTO a year, which includes sick and vacay. I am not sick often. Between special events and fundraising campaigns, I can barely get in the 5 weeks. 10 weeks is almost one week per month. With committee meetings, etc, that vacay would never happen. And usually I end up working on vacay anyway…..because you know….fundraising!

    26. Not really*

      I am in a large startup with unlimited PTO. No one has much time to take off, and I see it as being cheap- they don’t want to have to pay out vacation or carry accrued vacation on the books as a loss. At my former job, people felt that they had earned their PTO and took it. Now, you feel like you’re asking for a favor when you want a day off.

  4. Jenn*

    How do you approach moving to another office location to your boss?

    I work at a global company with several locations in the United States, everyone is still remote right now. I’m based in the Dallas, TX office and want to move to Phoenix, AZ in May 2022. Our Dallas office is mostly marketing people (which is what I do). We actually have an office in Tempe, AZ, but this office is mostly filled with customer service representatives. My team specifically has two other people who work remotely not near an office (in WA and NV)  and I know a handful of others working remotely so it seems like it is possible to move locations and work remotely. I’m just not sure when or how to approach this with my boss.

    1. MisterMeeble*

      Does you company have an official policy on remote work, or moving from office to remote in another location? Or is it up to individual managers to work it out? Do they have the authority to override a policy that might prevent this?

      If you don’t know the policies, maybe do some research to see what you may or may not be up against.

      If your relationship with your manager is good, I would simply discuss it, fairly informally at first to take their temperature, so to speak. Once that’s established, get a more formal plan depending on the answers. You might need to offer to go to a company office on a regular basis (once or twice a week) and should probably offer to go in “when needed” fo in-person gatherings with others in that office.

      And if you have a contentious relationship with your manager, perhaps HR is the way to go.

    2. Irish girl*

      Does your company have a policy that spells out who can work remotely and in what situations? I think you need to start asking those questions. Can you frame why working in the office in Tempe, AZ might not actually benefit the company if you did move? If that office has no one you interact with, what do they get other than the cost of your but in a seat that could go to someone that would give them a benefit for coming in.

      My manger is now a remote employee enough though there is an office in her area that she could work out of. She was a manager in that office prior to her internal transfer to my department and the space she took up in her prior job is going to the replacement and they dont have a desk space for her as a Home Office employee in that location. But we have policies around remote work and things people need to sign to do that.

    3. Cranky lady*

      Are you looking to work in that office or remotely? Almost 20 years ago I went to my boss and said “I’m moving to XYZ city and we have an office nearby. I would like to stay in my current job so is there a way we can make this work?” The office in the new city found me a desk and I worked from there. I was very young and scared of making the request but it ended up not being a big deal. I would hope that it’s even less of an issue now with remote work as common as it is.

      2. ENFP in Texas*

        This sounds like the best approach. If your role doesn’t require you to be in a specific geography (like sales, for example) and your team is national instead of “everyone in the same building”, working at a desk (or maybe remotely!) in Tempe shouldn’t be a huge issue for the company. Good luck!!

    4. anonymous73*

      Just set up a meeting with them and ask. I would do it ASAP – May is not that far away and if they say no, you need to consider your options (including a new job if you’re set on moving). Let them know you’re interested in moving and ask what your options are with the company, then go from there. Make sure everything is spelled out and there are no assumptions being made. And if you both agree on the change, get it in writing.

    5. PABJ*

      I would just ask about the possibility. The plus side is that the issue of having an employee work in another state is significantly lessened in your case as the company is already operating in Arizona, so won’t have to jump through as many legal hoops as would be the case if you were the first person to work remotely in a new state.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      I am not familiar enough with taxes. But one problem I have hit here with remote work is that companies do not want to have yet another state where they have to file taxes- for state tax. When companies hit this wall the answer is usually a big no.
      As part of prepping for this conversation, try to have some idea how this goes in the two states you are looking at.

    1. Applesauced*

      so far :
      – test computer and program in advance (maybe do a test call with a friend before hand?)
      – have files on my desktop and/or already open
      – check lighting
      – put googly eyes on my camera so I look at it
      – raise the computer on books
      – turn off all notification and alerts

      1. Hello, I’d like to report my boss*

        I love the googly eyes idea! And definitely do a test call, and if you need to screenshare, check that works too.

        Also if you are late and have tech problems, don’t worry- everyone has had it and the interviewers have been really relaxed and understanding. If they aren’t willing to be reasonable, that’s a red flag. I had one interviewer who kept complaining about my connection being poor (it was almost certainly her – the rest of the panel could hear me fine) and she later turned out to be unreasonable in other ways.

      2. Momma Bear*

        Test your audio! I found out the hard way (thankfully not via work) that my Bluetooth headset mic does not play well with my computer. Go for wired if you need to use a headset. Practice sharing your screen with your friend so you know how to launch the docs within whatever program they are using. Different platforms do different things.

        I’d keep the background simple. A blank wall or minimally decorated. Make sure there are no distractions like pets or children or friends.

        Wear solid colors. Patterns can be distracting.

      3. Quinalla*

        Definitely do a practice run with a friend to check audio, what is visible on camera, lighting, etc.

        And I agree something to keep you looking at your camera, but also try to position your camera and the video window of the interviewer(s) directly below the camera. Then you can still see their reactions and if you do start looing right at them, it will still likely read as eye contact pretty well. Practice this with your friend as well so you know how you will need to adjust things and be able to do it quickly when you join the interview.

        I haven’t done interviews, but lots and lots of video calls :)

    2. Hello, I’d like to report my boss*

      I’ve done about 10 virtual interviews this summer as a candidate.

      Remember to look at the camera, not the screen! It will make you give better “eye contact”. I got some post its and drew arrows on them pointing at the camera and stuck them next to the camera to keep my eyes in the right place.

      Another useful thing is that you can have notes. I had a one page of brief examples of projects, situations etc to jog my memory if I needed it. Each example was just 1-2 words to help me out. (I once totally blanked on a video interview, for an easy question, so it’s a good “just in case” thing for me).

      I also got a post it note and wrote down a happy calming thing on it (for me – hot tubs) and stuck it on the edge of my monitor. I don’t know if it helped me relax a bit but it made me smile!

      1. DogMomOnStruggleBus*

        I would add, find a silent fidget if you need something for your hands to do to be able to focus. If you’re worried about getting nervous, you can put something that smells nice and calming to you (like a lavender eye pillow) on your desk so that you can have an invisible reminder of the headspace you want to be in.

    3. irene adler*

      How will you be presenting those drawings?

      Via a share-screen feature on the video platform you are using? Know how to find this feature on the platform you are using. Nothing worse than hunting around for the button.

      Or -don’t laugh- holding them up to the camera for folks to view? We had to do this for a class and several drawings were not viewable as the camera resolution was too poor. Check this beforehand.

      1. CoffeeIsMyFriend*

        Yes – get on some video platform using the computer you will use for the interview and practice holding things up!

    6. desdemona*

      Are the drawings on your computer or physical sketches?
      If the former; practice screen sharing in the program the interviewers will use a few times before the interview. (just start your own meeting, or ask a friend to zoom with you and have them talk to you about what they see)

      If they’re physical drawings, do the same thing with a friend but practice holding them up. OR – and this would depend on the employer – I’ve had to show paper drawings recently and joined the call from my phone, and positioned it on a stand pointing downwards, with the drawings below it. Basically adding a camera feed, but you have to be cautious about muting so you don’t get feedback from having 2 devices.

    8. anonymous73*

      Test out the camera beforehand – make sure you’re visible from the shoulders up. Make sure there’s nothing crazy in the background. I don’t think a fake background is always necessary, just make sure you’re not in front of a pile of dirty laundry or a messy unmade bed.

      Sign in at least 5 minutes early so you can avoid any technical difficulties and make sure the camera and microphone are working.

      Treat this as if it were in person – don’t forget you’re on camera don’t have a reaction because you think they can’t see you (we had someone roll their eyes at us in an interview recently).

      Good luck!

    9. Em*

      Check the angle — someone else mentioned putting the computer up on books or something, and the idea for that is so that it’s not a view up your nose and at your ceiling. Ideally, your camera should be at your eye level or just above, there should be a little gap between the top of your head and the top of the view, and the bottom of the screen should include a bit of your torso (but not down to, like, your waist). You should be straight on to camera vertically as well as horizontally.

    10. Strict Extension*

      It sounds like maybe the drawings are via screenshare, but if there is anything physical that you are going to hold up to the camera, keep in mind that virtual and blurred backgrounds don’t play nice with showing items that aren’t you (and also sometimes parts of you).

      If you have an environment where you can just stay unmuted the whole time, it’s better to do that than going back and forth, since presumably you’ll be talking for a good percentage of the time. If you can’t do that, get practice being quick with that mute button, since you don’t want radio silence for five seconds before each answer.

      Make sure to check the clothes you’re going to wear. Some fabrics give off a distracting moiré pattern on screen, and I’ve even heard tell of those that go translucent (was that on this site?).

    11. Nela*

      I really hope those drawings are digital or scanned copies you can screenshare, because holding papers up to a webcam is not going to look good. Webcams are crappy, especially those built-in ones.

    12. Cleo*

      Test what you’re going to wear as well when you do the test call. For me, finding something that read as professional interview wear on screen was harder than I expected.

    13. something*

      Make sure there aren’t any devices that might interrupt your wi-fi signal if you’ll be using a wi-fi network. I’ve had to put a note on the microwave during my recent online interviews and my partner has to put a note on it when they have important matches in online games.
      If you’re not using a built-in laptop camera, make sure your webcam is aligned as well as possible with the area you’ll be looking at the interviewers in. This way, you’re not appearing to shift away from them when they’re talking.

  6. PD*

    How much involvement is too much? We have a new manager, who used to be our peer… and he is very hands on.
    E.g. he asks for medical info, wants us to share it with the rest of the team so everyone can support each other etc.
    I mean, I’m not the only one who feels that this is an overstep of boundaries. And that’s just 1 example.
    Any advice for scripts to use? I feel like what I’m saying is just not being understood or listened to.
    Failing that what next?

    1. Excel Jedi*

      That is not hands on….that is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

      You should only give him medical information as it relates to your ability to do your job, and he should be keeping that information confidential. There is absolutely no reason for your peers to know unless you want them to.

      1. PD*

        Right? That is my take as well!
        He is very pushy so although I have said ‘no’, his attitude is very much ‘you’re in the wrong for thinking like that’, which is uncomfortable and which makes me think he is clocking what else I object to that is different to his idea of what should be shared or not.
        He gave us all a document about him, his personality, and how he likes to communicate, but he made us do the same – like ok, I get that knowing each other’s communication style is helpful, but not filling in the bit about me. To say I barely completed it with the minimal info is an understatement.

        1. Maybesocks*

          It could actually be valuable to put on the form: medical information for emergencies is in my purse…or whatever.

    2. Dust Bunny*

      What.

      That’s not “very hands on”, that’s nosy AF and way, way, out of line.

      If he won’t take, “The department doesn’t need to know my medical situation,” for an answer, can you escalate this to someone above him?

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      The phrases “medical appointment” and “medical issue” are perfect because they are specific but vague. That’s all he or anyone else needs to know.

    4. Up and Away*

      In what context is he asking for medical info? Like you’re in a meeting and it’s an icebreaker? Or he’s announcing to everyone why Lucinda is going to be out this afternoon? I guess I’d try something like, “that’s not relevant information that we need here.” Or, “that’s private information that no one needs to share with their co-workers.”

      1. PD*

        We were in a work meeting about returning face to face and we had to complete in-case-of-emergency contacts (standard for the type of business I work in and activity we were doing, and it includes things like allergies and meds you’re taking so info can be given to medical services if needed) for all the attendees which include 2 staff at all times.
        I said if you didn’t want to hold your ICE details with the details of clients, then keep them separately in your pocket or something and let someone know where to find them if you’re incapacitated and if an ambulance needs to be called.
        HE then said we should share them with all the members of staff whether they go to the event or not, so that we could support each other.
        Um, no? There was tumbleweed in the meeting.

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          That’s good! The tumbleweed I mean. I’m glad people aren’t humoring him even if they aren’t actively pushing back.

    5. Eldritch Office Worker*

      My kingdom for standard management training to be normalized.

      I actually think you should bring it to HR, not to him. He’s not listening to you and some of these things are a big deal.

      In terms of what to say in the moment “I prefer to keep that private” “That’s more than I’m comfortable disclosing at work” “I appreciate the intention but you’re overstepping my boundaries” (the last one I only suggest because he used to be a peer – while it’s not, some managers might find it overly direct so I wouldn’t necessarily jump there with an unknown quantity).

      But yeah someone above him needs to reign him in.

      2. Public Sector Manager*

        Standard management training would be ideal! When I promoted there was no training, so I had to learn the hard way. And a lot of it was gut instinct, and when you’re a new manager, many of your instincts are dead wrong. I look at things I did my first two years and I cringe.

        PD, I can’t tell here if your new manager is just nosey AF or since your new manager is doing their own on boarding they are just doing a terrible job at it.

        But I agree that looping in HR is the best option.

    6. Whynot*

      “While I appreciate you want to create a supportive team culture, some people may be feeling pressure to share private information in ways they don’t feel comfortable. I’m also concerned this may open our company to legal liability related to medical privacy. Can we brainstorm other ways to improve our team culture?”

      1. PD*

        Oh I really like this, thank you. I am going to use an adapted version of it :-) I am meeting with him and HR next week, because one of the things that came out of this meeting was that he wanted to ‘update’ my disability adaptations!

        1. Storm in a teacup*

          It sounds like he’s wanting to be seen to be ‘actively’ managing but without the understanding of key basics such as confidentiality / regulations.
          Glad HR is involved. Could you also bring up the sharing of private info on this call? Maybe ask HR ‘Of course we cannot share everyone’s private medical information and emergency contacts with each other in the team because of confidentiality but would you clarify the standard process for collecting these now post-Covid? Has it changed?’
          From a working together point of view I do think there is value in taking him up on his request for your personality and communication style.
          For example: I am a private person and like to have this respected by my colleagues.

    7. Texan In Exile*

      This is where I would start with the, “Well, I have really bad menstrual cramps – OTC drugs don’t work – and a super heavy period so I need to have a vaginal ultrasound and a biopsy. The last time I had a biopsy – you know – where they pinch off a piece of my uterus – I passed out from the pain, so even though my appointment is at 10 a.m. and I hope I can work the rest of the day, I might not be able to.”

    9. Oh Behave!*

      “I’m not comfortable sharing that information. It’s nothing life-threatening (if it isn’t, otherwise don’t use this part). Bill, did you get that report I sent?”

    10. Not So NewReader*

      He’s not hands on, he’s an invasive weed.

      I had a boss who liked to know everything. This boss would worm their way into situations and make decisions such as my doc was incompetent and so on. The conversations were friendly at the beginning but that all turned the corner. Yeah, the boss wanted to talk finances and anything else, also.

      I see that potential here because you are telling the boss “No, I do not want to discuss this” and you are feeling unheard. I can’t see where this would get better by discussing it.

      If you can give some examples of what he says, I bet we can help you prep strong answers.

    11. PD*

      Thanks for all your responses. Sorry I can’t give more details, I don’t know if my coworkers read this site (I think some of them do) so wouldn’t want to be identified.
      Good to know I’m not wrong with my instincts. I’ll be considering going to HR privately after the meeting next week.

  7. Marion*

    I have a teammate who always has to say something on every call. She literally cannot not talk or interject. It’s annoying but I’m trying to find humor in it to stay sane lol

    This is an example. My team has a weekly call to go over weekly reporting with several stakeholders, in total, the meetings have about 10 people. With the meeting format, 6 of us each have some set time to walk the stakeholders through the weekly report going over different things. My teammate, Brittany, will do something right before she has to speak, then when she unmutes, she’ll talk about what she just did. So what do I mean?

    3 weeks ago, she had a plumber working at her house. At her time to talk, she goes: “OMG, hope you all didn’t hear me talking to the plumber! hahaha I didn’t check if I was muted! How embarrassing!”. Then 2 weeks ago it was “oh my goodness, my cat was walking on my desk! hahaha”. Last week it was “sorry I was just rubbing my eye! hahaha I just ate jalapenos at lunch! I’m so embarrassed! haha”

    This woman is in her mid to late 30s, it’s just so odd. I think it’s a mix of insecurity and needing attention. She does this on every other call she’s on. Has anyone experienced anything similar?

    1. Apples to apples comparison*

      Ugh that’s annoying. Yes I did, but the coworker continued to be attention-seeking.

      1. CBB*

        I agree. You can’t make her change, but you can change how her behavior makes you feel. I would try to stop thinking that she’s doing it for attention.

        I know several people who talk too much when nervous. Extra attention is the opposite of what they want.

      3. Rusty Shackelford*

        Maybe she’s nervous (and doesn’t want the attention) or maybe she’s begging for attention (and rewarding her would encourage the behavior). Either way, seems best to just try to ignore it.

    3. WellRed*

      I have a similar coworker who tends to go off on lengthy tangents, often about something not work related. I feel your pain.

    4. Talula Does the Hula From Hawaii*

      Yeah, i would also like advice on how to handle this successfully, no luck so far.

    5. Generic Name*

      For a minute I was afraid you were talking about me. I was recently told by my departing manager that I come across as “strident” and I contribute “too much” in meetings. I’m in a senior role and I thought my contributions were helpful to the team, but I guess I was wrong. So I’ve stopped attending team meetings and I’m looking for another job. I’m sorry she is so annoying to you.

      1. hamsterpants*

        I’m glad you’re looking for another job. I’ve only ever heard “strident” used to try to get women to sit down and shut up because she said something that made a man feel bad about himself.

      2. SC in NC*

        Not to hijack the conversation but you quit going to meetings entirely and are looking to change jobs because of that comment? Something I learned as I became more senior at my company is that I needed to be more selective with my input. At times I needed to lead the discussion but recognized that development for less senior employees should include allowing them to contribute and work out problems with their peers. I may know more about something or be the boss in the room but that doesn’t mean I should dominate the discussion. I also learned that when I did comment, it was best if I was a bit more subtle as opposed be being too direct or outright solving the problem. Perhaps that’s all your former boss was trying to tell you.

        1. Generic Name*

          Possibly. I’m also unhappy because I made an official sexual harassment complaint that was not dealt with for more than a year and then I was told that I “should have come forward sooner”…….

          1. Generic Name*

            Oh, and six months prior that same manager told me I needed to work on my confidence and speak up in meetings more. So it was a shock to be told I talked too much and she didn’t see what my contributions were.

            1. Quinalla*

              Yikes, sounds like getting out of this company is the right move. I have run into something eerily similar where I was told to work on my confidence – what they meant was I needed to SHOW my confidence, I was already plenty confident. When I started doing that, I then got told I was too aggressive by the same person. Being a woman in a male dominated field or a woman in any leadership role really can suck a lot as threading the needle between too nice and ice queen and confident but not aggressive and so on is basically impossible.

            3. SC in NC*

              You have plenty of other reasons to leave. Find a better opportunity and put this place in your rear view mirror. There are better places out there. Good luck.

    6. Joyce To the World*

      I find myself doing this and I just cringe each time. This is why I think I am doing it:
      1. I am trying to fit in while also trying to get past my social awkwardness. I am fairly new and we are all remote workers, so there is really no other way to interject a little bit of your personality.
      2. We are still in a pandemic and dang it if it doesn’t get lonely sometimes. I work at home and my husband leaves for the day and it is just me and the dogs. I think what stunted social skills I have took a hit with all the isolation. Kind of like verbal diarrhea.

      1. JB (not in Houston)*

        Yeah, to me, this just sounds like comments someone makes when they want to be personable and build a rapport with coworkers. If you are someone who doesn’t want that and wants to be out of a meeting as soon as possible, I can see why it would be annoying, but otherwise I don’t think it would bother me unless I already didn’t like the person.

    7. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      I think this would be something her supervisor or the meeting lead would need to handle and even then carefully — she sounds very easily distracted and might not be able to help it. It doesn’t sound like she derails the meeting though if she just makes a random comment when it’s her turn to start. I understand your irritation though, my grand boss is constantly asking our team if we’re excited over the most mundane or even bad things, “We’re going to start tracking our time spent on projects on this shared spreadsheet, are you excited?”

    8. anonymous73*

      Yes it sounds annoying, but unless she’s taking up an unnecessary amount of time with her rambling, I’d just let it go. If it goes on and on (and on and on) the person in charge of the meeting needs to cut her off, reign her in and keep on topic.

    9. New Mom*

      I would say that a lot of people on my team are like your coworker. We joke around and add non-work related comments in our team meetings. I wonder if your coworker came from an environment where that was the norm, and she may not have fully grasped how that’s not how things are at your org?

    10. Emi*

      This sounds to me like she’s undersocialized due to the pandemic, honestly, and reaching out for small talk to connect over.

    11. JB (not in Houston)*

      That doesn’t sound like she’s doing it for attention, unless you have seen her try to get attention in other ways. But even if that is why she’s doing it, as you acknowledge, it doesn’t help you to think that way. Instead of just finding humor in it, can you use it to have sympathy for her? That’s the same kind of thing someone nervous about presenting would say, or someone who thinks it’s too curt to start speaking without a greeting of some kind but isn’t sure what to say, or someone who is trying to seem personable and doesn’t realize she’s irritating people. If her statements are really just a sentence or two, that’s not wasting too much of your time, so can you try to reframe it to see it as someone who wants to relate to the team but doesn’t know how? For me, sometimes seeing the humor doesn’t help me be less annoyed, but seeing the humanity in someone does.

    12. Malarkey01*

      I’m a little confused. You say she can’t help herself from talking or interjecting but then in the examples it sounds like she’s just saying an extra line or two before she starts her part of the briefing. If she was interrupting other people or going off topic during a briefing when she didn’t have a role I’d agree that it’s too much, but if she’s just making the transition between another speaker and herself with a little non-work comment I don’t think that’s interjecting or inappropriate. Sometimes the transition may fall flat but on most meetings like this I’m on when people are switching off speakers a new speaker might say hope everyone’s enjoying this weather or excited to share some exciting project updates after that horrible (local sporting team) game last night (and mine are really high level briefings).

    13. Mimi*

      I don’t know if this is precisely the same, since your example is just extra chit-chat at the beginning of speaking, but I had a in-some-ways similar experience with a coworker I’ll call Bob — new hire, probably in his early twenties. He reminded me of a puppy, all enthusiasm and metaphorical flailing limbs. Someone would mention the London llama stable renovation and he’d jump in and provide an update on the new Denver Alpaca stable, sometimes talking over people who had more things to say about the actual topic, or with on-topic comments, like, “Oh, yeah, I looked for the curry combs last week but couldn’t find them,” but talking over Danielle who was trying to say that the curry combs got moved two weeks ago.

      It was mildly annoying to me, but Bob was in my department but not on my team, so we weren’t in that many meetings together. Then one day Bob was talking over his own boss, Charles, while Charles was trying to give directions or clarification or something, and I could tell that Charles was getting annoyed. After that meeting, I sent Bob a chat saying, “FYI, Charles seemed annoyed when you kept talking over him in the meeting earlier, and I’ve noticed that you have a tendency to talk over people a lot.”

      Bob apologized, which, whatever, he hadn’t talked over me, and I wasn’t entirely sure that he was really getting the point that this was bad for his reputation on the team, so I added something like, “I know you want to contribute, but if I were you, I would be working to make sure that enthusiasm doesn’t lead to talking over people.”

      He thanked me for the feedback, but TBH I didn’t have super-high hopes, and it could be argued that it wasn’t really my business, but I figured I didn’t have much to lose, since I’m senior to Bob and it wouldn’t really inconvenience me if he took a dislike to me. But the effect has been striking. I don’t think I’ve heard Bob interrupt someone since, and I heard through the grapevine that he’s been better in his smaller team meetings, too. I don’t know for sure that Charles didn’t talk to him, too, but I don’t have any reason to believe that he did, since the over-enthusiastic contributions had been going on for a bit.

    14. Not So NewReader*

      I think it’s up to her supervisor to tell her to strictly limit the chatter about “at home” or personal stuff and restrict her conversation to the business at hand.

    15. allathian*

      Yeah, leading with a bit of small talk would be normal for us, but more like “nice weather we’re having” rather than redirecting people’s attention to something mildly embarrassing you just did, like Brittany does. Regardless of whether this behavior is prompted by insecurity or a need for attention, I suspect that simply ignoring it would be the best way to deal with it.

    16. A Wall*

      Sounds like someone who is nervous and/or just trying to be friendly with everyone. I guess I can see how it would be a pet peeve but I’m not sure why, nor how it would get construed as attention-seeking.

  8. Silver*

    I keep getting rejections. So many rejections. I’ve successfully used AAM’s advice before but no one is biting lately. I’m in a weird place of being overqualified in terms of experience (I lead a large team) but under qualified in number of years of work experience (I have barely three but am aiming for jobs that want 5+). Any words fit wisdom?

    1. Excel Jedi*

      SAME! I’ve gotten a few interviews, but I’ve never gotten this many rejections at the first round before.

      I think there are a lot of people competing for the same jobs. Just keep applying, and maybe expand your search to jobs that are advertised a little lower if you’re not hearing back?

    2. SlimeKnight*

      Just keep trying. I work in a field where it is normal to get 10+ years in a position before you are considered “experienced.” I’ve been in this role 4 years, am bored out of my mind, and couldn’t imagine doing it another 6. I had been looking for a new job for the better part of the year and got a job offer just the other day!

    4. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I have a friend who is in a similar situation and has gotten dozens of rejections since June. I know it’s extra frustrating when you hear how good the job market is and all that, but don’t take it personally and keep plugging away. The actual job market varies a lot by area and sector and it’s a weird time.

    5. demoralized_libra*

      Just wanted to say that I’m on the same boat as you, Silver! I have about 5 years of work experience but am trying to shift to a different industry, and it is SO rough. I even posted about my being demoralized below you. I am sending nothing but good vibes to you; we’ll be okay. (Or so I keep telling myself.)

    6. NervousNellie*

      Not exactly wisdom, but what I’m hearing about the job market doesn’t match what I’m actually seeing. I’m hearing “we’d hire anyone with a pulse and half your experience.” I’m hearing “please apply, I could use someone like you.” I’m hearing “You’re a great fit for this role” from the recruiter. What I’m seeing is I apply into a black hole. I’m being told to reach out to people who never get back to me. I’m seeing “desperate” companies take a lot of time to think about it. I’m seeing people get to the final round of interviews, and suddenly be disqualified for something that, according to the company, should have disqualified them when they first spoke to the recruiter. (Seriously, a friend went to a final interview after getting extremely good feedback from his internal recruiter on every prior step in what I think was a four-part interview, only be told that the company was looking for entirely different skills for the role. Think interviewing in French and then being told the job requires Japanese. You’d think they’d have figured that out much sooner in the process.)

      1. Jax*

        Same, and glad to hear someone else voice it! I’m not witnessing a desperate job market in my industry (HR). Maybe talk of the Great Resignation has led to more people who otherwise wouldn’t be job seeking to throw their application in the ring, resulting in employers slowing down and becoming less “desperate.”

        I’m also not seeing crazy salary listings to entice applicants–if anything, the salaries seem low in light of increasing costs.

        1. LabTechNoMore*

          This. For all the talk of The Great Resignation, it hasn’t actually changed anything about the absurdly high bar companies hold candidates to. They haven’t even resorted to hiring entry level folks just yet (true entry level, not “Must have 3-5 years experience + Masters ” entry level).

          2. A Wall*

            My personal theory is that companies were forced to raise some wages and/or offer some more flexibility during the pandemic, and as a result they got mad and decided they needed to raise the requirements for the jobs to make it “fair” to them. Because I’ve noticed that over the last year or so, the same companies posting the same openings over and over seem to keep adding more and more stuff to their list of minimum requirements until it has ballooned entirely out of control.

      2. A Wall*

        I’m in the same boat, and I work in an industry about which there are half a dozen articles a week talking about how employees are leaving left and right and no positions can be backfilled because no one is applying.

        What I am seeing is that the same companies keep listing the same kinds of jobs for months and months but gradually keep increasing the minimum requirements in the listing until it’s absolutely bonkers. Say a Senior Staffer role usually requires 5-7 years of experience, but they want 7-10 for a Junior Staffer which is normally damn near entry level. At the beginning of the year some companies I was interested in would have Midlevel Staffer openings asking for 3 years exp in broadly that kind of work, whereas now after being reposted several times the listings ask for 7 years exp in only the one type of project they think is the most important plus years of experience in every piece of software you may or may not ever come across in the role and maybe also fluency in a relevant second language.

    7. Purple Penguin*

      Joining the chorus to say that this is me too: I’m both over and under qualified for positions and I’ve been feeling the weight of so many rejections.

      On the advice of a mentor, last week I decided to let myself wallow for the entire week in the mire of it all. Now that I’ve processed the angst, this week has felt like the weight has lifted somewhat. All to say, mind your emotional health. Allow yourself to feel your feels while also reminding yourself that you’ve got what it takes to be a great employee. Job searching is tough in the best of times. You’ve got this. You’re doing all of the right stuff. A good job fit will happen because you’re doing the hard work of putting yourself out there.

    8. Maggie*

      SAME. I got recruited even by one of my current company’s biggest competitors, lateral move but they pay much better and know it. I went through the entire process, and got an automatic rejection email yesterday. I emailed my recruiter politely asking for feedback and was told that ‘we’re not giving feedback at this time’ dude you recruited me!

  9. I want a boring office job*

    I’ve been working in public libraries for 20 years and the bulk of my experience is in customer service. But I’m so utterly burnt out and I don’t want to have anything to do with customer service anymore. I’d love a stereotypical “boring office job” where you go in from 8-5, do a set of mostly independent tasks, and go home, no customers, no weekends. I’m good at excel, attentive to details, and I love doing rote, repetitive work. Does anybody have any ideas for what kinds of jobs I should start looking for?

    1. The Smiling Pug*

      Have you looked at data entry or contractual editing positions? Usually, the work is pretty rote and you can set your own hours.

    2. Loopy*

      Technical writer might sort of fit, thought definitely not rote or repetitive. There’s wide spectrum of different varieties under that umbrella, you’d have to be discerning I which jobs. Lower level (tech writer I or II) might be closer to what you’re looking for.

    3. CCC*

      I’d look for jobs with “clerk” in the title. Payroll clerk. Data clerk. Purchasing clerk. Scheduling clerk. Etc. Even bookkeeper. At least in my area, those positions are usually “you do paperwork and rarely talk to humans” jobs

    4. anonycat*

      I don’t know your role, but there’s a demand in law firm libraries or law firms for someone to do rote case pulls, docket pulls, court filing pulls, judge background information, attorney background information and company research. High demand right now!

      1. RagingADHD*

        When I worked in law firms I always loved my brief visits to the library to pick up or return things my boss requested. Very peaceful.

      2. Diana*

        It will depend on your location, but (for example) larger architecture, interior design, or engineering firms will often have some type of in-house library that needs to be managed.

      3. Sammy Keyes*

        Honestly, even law firm reception can be pretty quiet and chill if you’re at the right place! I worked for a firm where I never had to screen calls, just transferred them to lawyers/their assistants, and most of my job was data entry, expense reports, ordering food, and a bit of *light* event coordination.

      4. Chauncy Gardener*

        This. Also, have you looked into fact checking things like textbooks for publishing houses?
        Good luck!!

    5. cubone*

      Could you do something with records or archival work? I worked at a college registrars office and we had “records management” people who made sure all our student records were appropriately filed. Seems like a good fit if you’re knowledgeable about library sciences and even though it’s not customer facing, having that experience is good too for student support.

      1. imaginaryoranges*

        I was also going to recommend some sort of university operations role. That’s what I do and while there is the occasional annoying person who finds their way to you, it’s generally very autonomous, I have a great work/life balance (no over time! no expected weekend/eveningwork!) and get the satisfaction of just making things run largely without having to deal with students OR faculty.

        1. LifeBeforeCorona*

          I had a chance at a very similar job several years ago, Mon-Fri, 9-5 at a university but I decided to take another one. As I’m getting older, the quiet work with just records and archives sounds better and better.

      2. Overeducated*

        Yes there is lots of this work in government as well as in companies that have to maintain records for legal compliance purposes.

        Another potential option could be a funding agency that serves libraries, like your state humanities organization or IMLS, but depending on the role you might still have a customer service element (e.g. advising libraries on how to get grants).

    6. Loulou*

      Look at the big library database vendors like Jstor or ExLibris. Lots of former front facing library staff there!

      1. DogMomOnStruggleBus*

        You might like working in archives! There is a lot less customer interaction and you should be able to use your experience in libraries.

      2. Slow Loris*

        I would also recommend exploring jobs in resource sharing/interlibrary loan. There’s minimal to no patron interaction and a fair amount of repetitive tasks.

    7. Actuary*

      It’s kind of niche, but many actuarial departments will have roles for non-actuaries (ie not credentialed and not working on credentials) to do data entry, manipulation, fill out & file forms with states, etc. In my company we call those roles “actuarial technician”. Good luck!

    8. Wine Not Whine*

      Sales compensation, payroll, and/or finance departments need people who are super detail-oriented and good with Excel; everything else can be learned on the job.
      Customer contact does happen, but it’s generally answering questions about or chasing down discrepancies in what you’re already working on (and at my company, at least, email is preferred for this, so it’s not like having to deal with upset people on the phone).

    9. Why did I go to library school?*

      “good at excel, attentive to details, and I love doing rote, repetitive work”

      It sounds like you’re a born cataloger! Welcome, comrade!

      Okay, that’s partially a joke, but if you don’t mind staying in libraries, a move to technical services or cataloging could absolutely give you the kind of role you’re looking for. However, it really depends on the library, and as I’m sure you know, the library job market is… not so great.

      1. jiggle mouse*

        Can confirm the library job market, and everyone wants non-frontline work. I’m on a lot of hiring committees and we get overwhelmed with very/over qualified applicants for any kind of back end role.

        1. Kimmy Schmidt*

          This is fascinating because it’s the exact opposite of my experience. We get dozens of applicants for public positions, but only a handful for tech services and back end positions!

          1. AnotherLibrarian*

            This has been my experience too. We’ve had a really tough time hiring qualified catalogers lately.

    10. Fresh Cut Grass*

      I did basically just this at the corporate office for a clothing retail company! The job was listed as “Retail Operations”– I spent my days filling out reports in excel, fielding emails from the stores, packing up supplies to send to the stores, etc. The closest I got to customer service was having to reply to the reviews left for our stores, which was never pleasant, but I also never had to make phone calls or interact with anyone in real life. And I got to sit down all day. That was the big one for me.

      1. Fresh Cut Grass*

        Oh, and depending on how in-depth you like to get with excel, maybe take a look into database work? It’s fairly different from how excel works, but if you enjoy moving bits of data around and figuring out how to get it arranged in a helpful manner, it’s worth taking a gander at– not least because it’s pretty lucrative! (I say as I spend yet another day fighting SQL for all I’m worth…)

    11. BlueberryFields*

      Higher education might be a good option! Look at fundraising/development offices. If the office is big enough, there is usually a data-focused department that updates the fundraising databases. And you might find that you enjoy the work and have opportunities to move about the department.

      1. BlueberryFields*

        Oh and if you want to take classes, sometimes it’s included as a benefit when you work at a university (at least in the US).

    12. OyHiOh*

      Office administration (office manager and the like) might fit the bill. You’ll get fires to put out but most of those fires will still fit within routine, and attention to detail. You’ll have “customers” in the sense of being responsive to the needs of staff, but as a fellow customer service/hospitality person who transitioned to boring office work, staff needs are generally light years easier to deal with.

    13. Mr. Peabody*

      Have you looked into a move to academic librarianship? It’s so siloed that you might be able to find a role (cataloging, shelving, etc.) that would remove the customer service element entirely. Not easy to break into but tons of relevant experience should help.

    14. bee*

      If you want to stay in libraries, I do interlibrary loan at an academic library and it pretty much fits the bill. I’m a department of one, and I pull and package books for shipping, process incoming loans, and do a TON of scanning, all from my office wellllllll behind the circulation desk (and when I was an ILL student assistant in college we were in a sub-basement!) I do have to deal with patrons, and they can be frustrating, but it’s almost entirely over email.

    15. Sleeping Late Every Day*

      Local government jobs might suit you. I briefly had one (between other gigs) in the assessor’s office. It was basically checking details of property transfers, about 80% routine move stuff from inbox to outbox work, and about 20% researching missing information using plat books and other material.

    16. Jane, just Jane*

      Media billing/trafficking might be a good option! At a large agency you would have a lot of work that is relatively independent. Attentive to detail and excel skills are major pluses too!

    17. Maybe*

      Our firm (biotech) had a lot of jobs in “document control.” Maintaining the files and documents of standard operating procedures.

    18. Bonnie in Denver*

      Records management. Some customers within the company – just a few a day in pre pabndemic circumstances. Classify, analyze, put it in the best place, and move on to the next. Detail ability very important. Law firms or corporate.

  10. Kath*

    Hi everyone. Some of you may remember me from my previous post. I’ve been dealing with a horrible admin for the last few months.

    To summarize, the admin was playing favorites and leaving me out on things. I mentioned this to another coworker and apparently he spoke to her about this without my knowledge. She stopped talking to me since saying she doesn’t trust me.

    I spoke with my manager and he said that she doesn’t like me and he can’t get her to like me. Following the advice here, I talked to him again and said that I don’t need her to like me but treat me with respect. He cut me off and suggested that I raised a formal complaint… We don’t have HR and this would also go through him so no idea why he wants that.

    She used to tell me how she messes with people she doesn’t like. She does petty things. For instance if she heard me saying to someone that I went to a restaurant with my husband to celebrate Valentine’s Day, she then loudly goes on about how ‘stupid people go to restaurants and get overcharged on Valentine’s Day’ to others while completely ignoring me. I also overheard her referring to me as ‘Chucky’ due to my acne scars.

    She is super friendly with everyone else, especially our manager but picks holes in my projects where she really shouldn’t as out of her scope. She goes around me as if I don’t exist. Say I was liaising with a client and she needs information regarding this, she asks another coworker. If they don’t know the answer (and they normally don’t as expected) she asks the client directly instead of coming to me!

    I cannot deal with this anymore. I’m constantly on edge knowing someone’s explicitly gunning for me. I wanted to stay here for another 2 years. It would be good for my career but my confidence both professionally and personally has completely eroded due to her behavior. I have decided to look for a new job but I feel so defeated… I’m here for the last time, please can you offer me some perspective? I feel like I’m doing the right thing for my mental health but not for my career. Is it the right choice or were there any strategies to get her to stop this behavior or make me not care this much?

    Apologies for the long post, thanks so much for taking the time to read and respond.

    1. Southern Girl*

      My sympathy. Sounds like a toxic workplace and you are right to leave ASAP! Bees, angry bees! Best of luck.

    2. Not a Name Today*

      Does your manager want a formal complaint so he can have your documentation for a PIP? I’d take him at his word, make the complaint, and see where it goes.
      If it doesn’t go anywhere, then I’d ask how your administrative work should be accomplished. Will they hire a second Admin to support the people the current Admin doesn’t like?

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        Yes – I would do this AND look for a new job. Is your manager also her manager? If not, loop that manager in too. Your script above was good (i.e. I know we aren’t friends and she doesn’t want to be but she still needs to do her job so I can successfully do my job. Here is the impact of her silent treatment on my projects…).
        Make her their problem and you focus on your work and your job hunt.
        I would use the “poor fit” or something similar as reason for leaving.

      2. SnappinTerrapin*

        I agree.

        Put it in writing, so he won’t have the excuse that he doesn’t “officially” know what isn’t written down.

        The current situation is untenable. Do what you can to help fix it, by making the complaint, but be prepared to move on if your manager doesn’t act promptly and effectively.

    3. Dasein9*

      I’m sorry you’re going through this. In a just world, this person’s shenanigans would be seen as what they are. This world may need your help seeing that.

      Document, document, document. Then be able to cite date and time when each incident occurred and point out exactly how your work is impacted.

    4. Lady_Lessa*

      Since you don’t seem to have any people who have your back, then leave ASAP.

      For some career help/reassurance/guidance you might want to look at the career resources at your local community college. I found them helpful. They even had a networking group for older job seekers. (and the value was far more than the price (free))

    5. WellRed*

      Who’s managing your manager? Any complaint should focus on work impacts and harassment but don’t get into examples like the Valentines one. Do you have witnesses? Are you friends with anyone there who could offer you support?

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        The Chucky comment is worth documenting because it is mocking a physical characteristic beyond your control.

    6. Up and Away*

      Honestly, with everyone you have laid out here, I don’t think you have much choice but to leave. There is NO way I would be able to deal with this on a daily basis. I think whatever professional benefits you might be reaping by sticking around for another 2 years, would be quickly wiped out by the blows your mental health is bound to take. I’m just so sorry you are having to deal with this – it’s just wrong, and isn’t be handled the way it should be by your manager. I just don’t see it getting any better for you.

      1. curiousLemur*

        “I think whatever professional benefits you might be reaping by sticking around for another 2 years, would be quickly wiped out by the blows your mental health is bound to take.” This!

    7. Talula Does the Hula From Hawaii*

      Someone once said it is possible to do nothing wrong and still lose. Thats not a character flaw, thats life.
      You lost the lottery and got stuck with this troublemaker. You cannot change someone else, those that enjoy hurting others will not reform on anyone else’s say so.
      What you can do is document and cover your behind. You have been told that you will be thrown under the bus for being ethical so you have to decide that this is the deal breaker and move on.
      If there is anything that ventures into illegal activity against you then you need to speak to a lawyer but that does not sound like the case from what you have said so far. So there is not much clout for you to exploit.
      The best advice is keep your head down, document and look elsewhere for employment and get out as soon as practical. But vet your next job carefully, you again can’t prevent bad luck but you can put the odds on your side by interviewing them back and not jumping at the first offers if there are red flags.

    8. Coder von Frankenstein*

      Your admin sucks and isn’t going to change. Your boss ain’t great either.

      Staying in a place where your mental health is suffering is generally bad for your career. Moreover, now is the perfect time to be looking for a new job–the labor market is super hot. It sounds to me as if you have absolutely made the right call to leave, and you should push forward with that.

    9. Generic Name*

      I am so sorry you are dealing with this crap. This is flat-out bullying, and your company is doing nothing, which is toxic. Employers are really hurting for workers right now. I agree with the others that your best option is to find a job at a functional workplace. They do exist.

      1. Reba*

        Yes, re: finding a new job — I wanted to address the part where Kath you feel that you would harm your career by choosing mental health “over” career advancement. Right now you feel defeated and you worry that any new choice would be a wrong one. But it doesn’t have to be a tradeoff, suffering for career growth! And the prestige or whatever of this place won’t mean much if you eventually flame out completely due to the stress.

        You don’t know what the next job (or the next one after that and so on) will be. Workplaces with good opportunities and reasonable coworkers, workplaces that don’t tolerate bullying, they are out there! And, I’m skeptical of how good this current place will be for your career since they undermine you and cut you out, and apparently think that is normal!! Gather your courage together, and apply to some openings. Best of luck.

    10. Beth*

      I hope this isn’t the last time you’re here — I’ll cross my fingers that you’re able to pop in for a Good News post sometime in the future.

      You don’t just have a toxic admin problem. You have a terrible manager problem. Since he can’t be bothered to do his job, you may be better off elsewhere — some other job where your manager won’t enable abuse and bullying.

    11. Hazel*

      Unfortunately, I would agree with the other commenters and just leave!

      I’m sorry that this is happening to you and that your manager sucks. But life is much too short to work in that toxic environment. Leave when you get a job that you’re happy to take.

      In the meantime, just try and focus on your life outside of work. Enjoy your time off each week as best you can and view the job as a means to an end that you will be leaving soon!

    12. Camellia*

      It doesn’t sound like the rest of your co-irkers are that great either. You mentioned it to someone and they told the admin, behind your back, which got you into further trouble. Not a great thing to do.

      Some situations simply can’t be salvaged. Unfortunately you have to weigh damage to yourself mentally, emotionally, and physically, against any possible setback to your career. I hope you can find another job quickly and get out of this mess.

    13. CatCat*

      The situation is untenable. The admin sucks and your boss sucks for refusing to deal with it. You could ask your boss what the function of a formal complaint is, but given his attitude so far, you could decide that’s not worth your time. He knows what’s up, he just doesn’t want to deal with it.

      You can’t work somewhere where you are constantly undermined by another employee and where your boss does not have your back. It sounds like leaving is not only the right thing for your mental health but ALSO for your career. A job that shatters your professional confidence is terrible for your career and can make you start second guessing yourself professionally on everything. That will not help you advance yourself.

      You deserve to work for an employer where you are treated with dignity and respect. Your current employer does not deserve you at all.

    14. Mockingjay*

      You need to assert authority and boundaries with Admin. Address each thing in the moment.

      Admin: *makes Chucky joke
      Kath: Please don’t comment on my appearance. *walk away
      Admin: *repeats Chucky joke at later time
      Kath: I’ve asked you not to comment on my appearance. I need you to stop. * walk away.

      Admin: *nitpicks aspect of project
      Kath: Admin, your input is unnecessary. I follow all processes per Boss and they are fully informed/satisfied of its progress.

      Admin: *asks client for information you should give her
      Kath: Admin, I emailed you the meeting details. Please check with me if you have questions, not client.

      And so on. Tone is calm and matter-of-fact. “Just business.” By walking away each time, she has no opportunity to engage. Don’t JADE: justify, argue, defend, explain. (Kinda did that with the Boss example above, but Admin needs to know that work-wise, your boss is happy with your performance and you’re not changing due to Her.)

      The goal is to address work and process, not her personality. You can’t fix that. You can get the respect you deserve through work actions. If she still acts like an ass, then you have specific examples and patterns to go to Boss with.

      Honestly, I think the real problem is your boss. They aren’t willing to manage a problem employee, even against the cost of retaining a good employee. Try these things, but if they don’t work, I’d start looking.

      1. Jax*

        This is great advice if you need to stay.

        I had to deal with my own office Mean Girl, but she was more senior and in charge of training me. When I successfully covered for her vacation (when she thought there was no way anyone could replace her) she flipped on me and became incredibly nasty and demeaning.

        ICY PROFESSIONALISM. I ignored her at all times, did not engage with her, and if I had to work with her I kept it very chilly and to-the-point. This was really hard for me because *we shared an office* and had many tense, silent days. I would get up and walk to other offices to chat with friendlier coworkers, and I’m not going to lie, it was really hard. After a year, she asked to moved to another position and eventually resigned. I won? I guess?

        Management knew she was a troublemaker and had already run off a couple of employees before me. Management claimed she was “protected” by the owners and they couldn’t fire her. Really, I think she was just a high performer and they didn’t care that she was mean–she got the results they wanted, they didn’t respect their female employees, and brushed it all off as “cat fighting.”

        I should have found another job, because the whole situation revealed early on that management was inept and would continue to be terrible. But, I needed the job and couldn’t snap my fingers and instantly find another one! Sometimes you just have to make the garbage job work, you know?

    15. RagingADHD*

      Look, the real problem here isn’t the admin. That’s just the symptom.

      The problem here is that your manager is allowing someone to behave so unprofessionally, interfere in client relationships, reduce productivity by refusing to communicate normally, and openly insult her coworkers. And he’s pretending this is some kind of “you problem” where it’s about whether or not someone “likes you.” It isn’t.

      Your manager isn’t doing his job. You can’t make him do his job. You could go ahead and make the formal complaint, as someone else pointed out. Perhaps for some reason he thinks he needs documentation in order to address this. It’s worth a try.

      If that doesn’t alter anything, go ahead and leave with a clear conscience. You can’t fix bad management.

      1. Cold Fish*

        Truthfully, it sounds like you need to file two formal complaints… one about admin and another about manager. Raging ADHD defines the problems perfectly in their second paragraph above in ways that focus on the business and not personal aspects.

        As for the personal aspects, you have done and are doing nothing wrong. Do not feel bad for leaving to save your mental health. You may just find that a change is just what you need to boost your career in ways you’ve never imagined.

      2. Twisted Lion*

        +1000 to this.

        This situation is not at all your fault. The admin sounds awful and your boss is horrible. I hope you can get out quickly to a better place to work.

      3. Astor*

        Yup, this. And it’s actually why I think that getting out will be good for your mental health *and* your career. You cannot build a good career when working for a manager who is this terrible *and* getting in the way of you doing your job. You’ll be in a better place the earlier you move on.

        Good luck, Kath! It really sucks when you have to job search before you’re ready because of people like this.

    16. Pippin*

      Ugh. Get out. Do not let it go as far as I did-breakdown, out for a week. More importantly, the self-esteem and confidence in my work that I had worked on so hard on for years was completely eroded. I got another job at the same institution (higher ed) and found out the person in question had completely trashed my reputation. Still recovering emotionally and professionally from that.

    17. Choggy*

      OP, your previous posting included some additional information which I feel really cements that this is “not the place for you”. Anything you share with your coworkers about her, gets back to her but in not the way you intended and so it gets blown out of proportion. Confronting your coworker who conveyed the message gets you no where because they won’t admit they inflamed your words. Your manager is of no help whatsoever. Not sure what any of us could say that would change this situation for you, sorry to say.

      Cut your losses and get out of Dodge.

    18. blood orange*

      Do you feel there’s any hope with your manager? Do you have a good rapport yet, and/or do you have a sense that there’s favoritism going on with the admin. You mentioned the admin is very friendly with him, but do you have a sense of his relationship with her?

      If you have a decent rapport with him, it might be worth giving it one more go with him and being really clear. He’s making it about her not liking you, but that’s not the point at all. She’s refusing to do her job, and harassing a coworker. Those are very serious performance issues.

      If he suggested that you make a formal complaint but you didn’t get the details on what that would look like, you could address that with him. Perhaps he was referring to a formal system that they have even though there’s no HR. If you wanted to stay there for your own career, and are understandably ready to leave over this, it might be worth giving your manager one last RED ALERT and see if he gets a better understanding that this is on him.

      To be clear, I wouldn’t say, “This is something I’m going to leave over” or tell him you’re job searching. However, if you haven’t yet framed it like this – “The situation with Jane is making it impossible to do my job effectively because I can’t get X and Y from her. In addition, my work environment is becoming untenable as I am dealing with daily personal attacks from her.” – it might be worth doing that. If he tells you he can’t do anything, or puts it back on you to deal with, then you definitely have your answer that he’s a terrible manager and won’t do anything about Jane. You’d have the choice to go above him, of course, but you’d have to weigh if you are comfortable doing that, and whether that could potentially make things tense between you and your manager while also potentially not improving the situation with Jane.

      Best of luck!!

      1. SnappinTerrapin*

        Don’t say this part out loud, but this is manager’s final opportunity to redeem himself by doing his job. You’ll know pretty quickly whether it’s worth staying.

        Best wishes!

        1. blood orange*

          Yep, totally. Saying that out loud could make you vulnerable to being pushed out, but it should be your internal agreement with yourself that this is his last opportunity. And again, this is only if you either want to give him that opportunity, or think there’s room to be more clear and he’d be receptive to the discussion.

    19. WoodswomanWrites*

      You brought the issue to your manager and he passed it back to you to deal with instead of elevating it further and advocating for you. It sounds like finding another position is the best option. Sorry to hear you have to deal with such an awful situation.

    20. Purple Cat*

      Choosing to prioritize your mental health is ALWAYS the right choice!
      Your career is going to get derailed if your confidence is completely eroded, so there really is nothing to gain by staying in this job.
      If your manager wants written documentation, then absolutely provide it. But it doesn’t sound like he’s offering much support, so PLEASE ratchet up the job search.

      We’re rooting for you!

    21. JustaTech*

      Here’s my advice on top of what everyone else has said: you’re not a “quitter” for choosing to find a better job. You’re stuck in a situation where you can’t succeed, there is nothing wrong, and everything right, with finding a better place.

      If a ceiling tile fell down every day and your boss just shrugged, you’d leave for your own safety, right? This is the same thing. This is a bad place, and you have every right to go find a good place. It is the right and smart thing to do.

    22. AdequateAdmin*

      I had someone at my last job like this. It got to the point where I literally could not get information from him in order to be able to do my own job without snarky comments or general butt-hole-ery. Finally I got so fed up with it because apparently management loved him for some unknown reason that I just left. It kind of screwed them over because they were having people leave or not wanting to do stuff correctly because he was so horrible to work with. And you know what? That’s their problem, not yours! Don’t feel bad about leaving; do what’s right for you. If they really wanted to fix the situation they could, but apparently they don’t want to.

    23. Not So NewReader*

      Mental health and physical health come first and foremost ALWAYS.

      You can’t fix this. And that fact will do even more to erode your overall health. Nothing like feeling powerless to pull us down lower and lower.

      Take back your power, your autonomy. Get out of there. The lack of professionalism is jawdropping. These place is not worth your time. You deserve a better workplace and you CAN find that place.

  11. ThatGirl*

    Does anyone work somewhere – past or present – where they’re super big on Discovery Insights?

    I find it kind of hilarious — I described it the other day as “horoscopes for work”. I did the whole thing, got my report and silly foam bricks and bracelets, and it was mildly interesting. I liked seeing in print that I’m “often uncannily correct” :) but it also feels reductive? people talk very seriously about what color they are/their reports are/etc. and I think it can be a helpful communication tool but … like I said, also kind of reductive.

    1. Ginger Baker*

      Do you work at my job? :-) (a BigLaw firm, so let me say…this surprised me for sure). I did enjoy my horoscope lol but yes otherwise mostly ignore it.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Haha, no, I work for a big manufacturing company. I didn’t really mind doing it in the first place, I’m just amused at how often people **actually talk about it** during the course of an average workweek.

    2. BossBen*

      Yes! We did that at my workplace last year and they had apparently done it in previous years before. We haven’t used it a ton since though, which I think is good. For me, it’s more informational and something to loosely think about when working with people, especially if you’re struggling with that relationship. I have tried to consider it in how I manage my direct reports and potentially how they’d like communication to happen – do they need time to process decisions, how direct should I be, etc. However, I think the bigger impact has been that my boss almost “weaponizes it” as I say. For example, “you’re going to see a lot of red energy in this message” or “I tried to dial up my blue energy.” I fee like it’s a little insulting when used that way but I suppose it’s generally harmless and I guess it provided a little team building.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Like, I can see some of it being helpful to managers — it noted that I tend to come back with questions later, which is very accurate, for instance. So I don’t like to be pushed in the moment, but will process, proceed, and come back to check in. But that also seems like something a decent manager should notice about their reports?

        1. BossBen*

          Totally agree. I definitely new most of the info about my team, but I did have a fairly quiet employee who is more “red” than I anticipated. I do think that it was on me as a manager, with or without Insights, to learn about how my employees want to be managed and how they work.

    3. Spillz*

      I used to work for a L&D department that frequently pushed out these sorts of evaluations across the firm. I think they are mostly what you described – horoscopes for work, but I did find it *incredibly amusing* that one evaluation that I received said I don’t suffer fools. It’s not wrong!

    4. Storm in a teacup*

      Ugh yes!
      Although mine was quite accurate so I was surprised by that.
      It’s been useful with my boss – who loves to flag how Red he is – to get him to give me time to reflect on stuff – because I’m part blue
      Apart from that
      ~\(•_•)/~

      1. ThatGirl*

        Yeah, kinda – but more in-depth. You answer a bunch of questions and it analyzes everything and a few weeks later I got a whole like, 10-page report on my work/communication style. It scores you in four areas that correspond to colors and you’re supposed to stack little foam bricks in the order of your colors so people can identify your communication style at a glance.

      2. SpaceySteph*

        My work was big into MBTI for awhile, we all had to take the test and people would totally start sentences with “Because I’m an XXXX, I prefer…” Its junk science and we’re a technical field so that always made me laugh too.

    6. Ina Lummick*

      We’ve done Management Drives which seems similar – luckily a new CEO came in and hasn’t done anything further with it. I personally think it’s a waste of time in terms of “I’m green which is X and your purple which is Y” (and I had to sit through a 90 minute meeting with a group of people I don’t work with normally and wait while HR reads off our analysis.

      I think it was interesting to consider different communication styles…but that’s it.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Thankfully my quiz etc were all self-directed; I was given instructions and that was it. HR didn’t want to go over the results with me or anything :P My manager might have gotten a copy, but we didn’t spend any time discussing it.

    7. A Girl Named Fred*

      Argh, I’ve never used that specific tool but your description of it reminded me of how my last organization used Predictive Index. I understood what they were going for on principle – help understanding best ways to work with your colleagues – but I HATED the way they actually implemented it. Suddenly I wasn’t ‘Fred’ anymore, I was a ‘MyTypeName’. If I raised a concern or asked a question, it was, “Such a MyTypeName question to ask, I understand why you need more info!” or “Well we just aren’t seeing eye to eye on this because I’m a TheirTypeName so I do things like this and you’re a MyTypeName so you do things like that.”

      It’s like. Please interact with the human being standing in front of you and not the idea you’ve created of them based on the test result they got.

      Phew! Sorry, apparently I still had some annoyance about that situation built up. I’m glad you’re able to find humor in it! The PI stuff combined with being required to discuss Love Languages with my senior management team was a major factor in why I left my last position.

    8. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      I’ve done Insights a few times over the years, and used to display my bricks on my desk. I actually thought about it since probably pre-COVID pandemic, and my manager just mentioned it the other day. I liked it at a high-level, but it’s also just one facet of a person.

      I’ve also done the StrengthFinders assessment a few times…has anyone done that?

    9. MellowYellow*

      YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      And now that I am a few years out from having done it, it is a pain because no one takes it into account or it is used against us.
      I interviewed for an internal position at my company and it was used against me. The hiring manager did NOT have my results and made assumptions as to what “colors” I was on that test. He was completely wrong and when we met post interview he basically said that I needed to be blue (which is my top color) for the role. So because I was able to turn on “yellow” during my interview (which as you know the training talks about how you can turn certain colors on to communicate better with people) that hurt me. I was livid. And then he tried to backtrack in my interview feedback once he found that out.

      The person who got the job is a great fit, but it really bothered me that those things are being assumed about people and then being used against them. I work in a very data-driven role. My whole department came out as blue and they still force us into Yellow teambuilding nonsense.

  12. PSA for Whomever Needs It*

    No, your co-workers don’t admire you for skipping lunch and holding more and more and more meetings.
    In fact, they’re quite annoyed with your inability to communicate effectively as a result of fatigue, hunger, and over-caffeination.
    Babysitting you makes their jobs more difficult and they resent you for it.

    Take your vacation.
    Take your breaks.

    4. The Rafters*

      Your coworkers also think you don’t manage your time effectively and are irritated b/c you are probably dumping more work on them.

    5. Cats rule*

      Also, your coworkers don’t admire you for working late hours. They just think you are infective at your job. Stop pretending that you are so important.

    6. Hippo-nony-potomus*

      I’m not impressed with your dedication to your job that causes you to schedule a 4:45 pm Friday meeting; glad you’re working from home but I need to get my kid.

      I’m not impressed with the dedication that has you sending out “urgent” emails on our days off (e.g., Fourth of July or 9/80 off days), before 8 am, or after 5-ish pm. Please get your work done during normal office hours and if you can’t, get your personal projects done on your own time and spend your working hours on things that require the input of your coworkers.

        1. JustaTech*

          I had a boss who wanted to hold an optional meeting (journal club) at 5:30 on Fridays. “I’ll bring beer!”

          He had never noticed that everyone got in between 7 and 8, so was well gone by 4:30 on Fridays. He’d also never listened to anyone long enough to know most of us didn’t drink beer.

          (The meetings were never held.)

          1. Midwestern Scientist*

            There’s a lab on our floor that hold 4-5pm lab meeting every Friday. Everytime I pass by their conference I wonder how long I would last.

    7. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      And they have no interest in listening to you bragging about your “virtuous” lunch skipping and calendar overload.

    8. Urban teacher*

      Special Ed teachers are so bad about this. “ I worked a 60 hour week and aren’t I virtuous. You clearly don’t care about the kids as much”

  13. Monty & Millie's Mom*

    My husband got a new job out of state and we are moving around the 1st of the year. I’ve started applying for jobs online, but am kind of worried about a couple of things:

    How likely is it to have something lined up and ready to go in the new location by that time, especially with the holidays?

    And how can best communicate to potential employers that, although my address/phone # are out-of-state, I am, in fact, going to be local? I’m putting a short explanation in my cover letters, but wonder if there’s anything else to do?

    1. The Original K.*

      If you have your location on your resume, maybe change it to your new one in addition to mentioning it in your cover letter. The phone number matters less since so many of us have cell phones – my phone number isn’t local to the city I live in and that’s true for many people I know.

      I wouldn’t expect to have a new job signed on the dotted line in that time frame, though you may be in the midst of interview processes.

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      Hiring in my experience is a mixed bag over the holidays, I think you can make a concerted push over the next couple weeks but I get the sense that with Christmas/New Years falling on Saturdays plus everything Covid related that lots of people are going to collectively ‘shut things down’ around December 20th. Then again, all it takes is one company to say ‘yes’ and you’re good to go.

      I think what you’re doing re: the cover letter is a good plan of attack. I would reiterate the point when you’re doing your initial phone screens just to make sure.

      Good luck with the move!

    4. Annony*

      Is address a required field on the applications? You can leave it off of your resume. I wouldn’t worry about the phone number. With the increased use of cell phones and not even having a land line, it is becoming more and more common to have a non-local phone number even if you have lived there for years.

    5. Fiction Reader*

      Apply for jobs now! I was involved in hiring for an open position last December, and not a single person applied until January. For various reasons, the new employee did not start until March 1st. I would have been thrilled to get a candidate interviewed in December and ready to start in January!
      It may not work out this way for you, but don’t talk yourself out of applying now due to the holidays.
      Put your new city and state on your resume, no street address required, and mention your move on your cover letter. Not sure about online systems that won’t let you skip a field – is there a friend or relative in the new location who would let you use their address, just to avoid being kicked out by some computer program?

      1. Alternative Person*

        Yeah, depends on your field of course, but in mine there’s always a mini glut of positions going up around this time with an aim to hire for January starts.

    6. Hippo-nony-potomus*

      Some options:
      1. Depending on how much space you have on your resume, put your current and future city and state:
      Scranton, PA (through Dec 2021)
      Phoenix, AZ (Dec 2021 onward)

      That helps them to understand why you have Scranton companies on your resume.

      2. Put a local address; if you need a street address for an online application, acquire a PO Box.
      PO Box 12345
      Phoenix AZ

      3. Just put the new city/state on your resume; street addresses are a bit outdated anyway (IMHO).

    7. anonymous73*

      Prepare yourself to not have a job locked down by the time you move. I’m not saying it’s impossible, but the hiring process takes a lot more time than anyone realizes (if you haven’t been on the other end of it) and many people take time off to travel and spend more time at home this time of year. That’s not to say you should stop trying, and make it clear when you apply that you’re moving, but I think being realistic about it will help you in the long term.

    8. Purple Cat*

      I would leave your address off the resume entirely. Cell phone’s are fluid, so I wouldn’t worry about that piece.
      I put it at “highly unlikely” that you’ll have a new job before you move. I don’t know what type of role you’re looking for – something at a lower level where they’re “constantly recruiting” it’s more likely, but at a higher level where you need to meet with multiple people, Holidays and end of year focus make hiring a long process. It’ll definitely pick up after the 1st of the year though.

    9. Sandman*

      It depends on the type of organization and role – at lower levels I’ve had jobs with shorter interview processes that were only a few weeks from start to finish, but 6+ weeks seems more normal to me. If you get some balls rolling now, though, you might be able to get halfway through some processes and be ready a few weeks or a month after the move – it could actually work out really nicely if you’re able to focus on settling in for a little while before starting a new job in a new place.

    10. PT*

      I’ve moved several times, and unfortunately, no combination of address/phone number in-state/out of state/no address at all will get people to overlook that MostRecentJob (City, ST) on your resume is in a different city and state.

      I moved cross country four years ago and I am still getting recruiters who did not bother to read my LinkedIn or resume carefully contacting me for jobs where I used to live, because all that’s popping out to them is my second-most-recent-job. (Or they’re doing a keyword search using my old employer’s name and not bothering to check my current location, that is also possible.)

      Some people are just determined to not pay attention. Some of them are hiring managers.

    11. AnotherLibrarian*

      It’s super unlikely to have something lined up by the time you move, but that doesn’t mean you should wait. I’d start ASAP. Generally, hiring takes a long time even when you’re not in higher ed (where it takes an even longer time.) I think a sentence in your cover letter letting people know you are moving is enough- that’s what I look for when I see an out of state candidate. I work in a very rural place, so when people who aren’t local to the state apply, I always wonder- do they know where the job is? Have they thought this through? Because we regularly get offers declined by people who decide they don’t really want to move to super rural location. A lot of people have suggested leaving your address off your resume, but I would find that an odd move and would wonder what the candidate was trying to hide, especially if they already addressed it in the cover letter.

  14. wen*

    So upset! Got offered a job from my backup, less preferred choice, Job A, yesterday and have to respond by Monday. Still waiting to hear from my preferred job, Job B. I’ve contacted them, but they’re unavailable so I just left a message for them to get back to me.

    Really pray that Job B will offer me a job but I don’t think it’s likely they’ll have it ready today or Monday. :(

    Job A is exactly the same role and industry as I’m doing so they’re confident with me and they need someone to start soon in December so they rushed and offered me the job even though I just interviewed with them this week. Job B I interviewed with exactly 2 weeks ago and when I sent my thank you/follow up email, they responded saying they’ll be finishing conducting interviews and will be reviewing our test results. So it’s reasonable it’s been 2 weeks and no word from them yet.

    1. Lirael*

      You could message Job B and say are you still in the running because their job sounds best but you’ve been offered another job.

      1. JB*

        Yes, do this. Tell them explicitly that yoh need to know now.

        Maybe you’ll find out they’re not interested in you, which would suck, but at least you’ll have the information you need to respond to the other offer.

    2. Coenobita*

      If Job B calls you back, it’s worth mentioning the other offer! Companies/hiring managers deal with competing offers for candidates all the time and they might be able to move up their timeline for you (or at least tell you that’s it’s not possible, so you are not left wondering what might have been).

    3. Mockingjay*

      Will Job A give you the things you are looking for? It sounds like it’s the Same Stuff, Different Job as you are doing currently.

      Unless you are horribly miserable and need to GET OUT NOW, consider declining Job A. If Job B offer doesn’t materialize, you can keep looking.

      If you’re still thinking about taking Job A, I’d ask some hard questions about Job A and the rush to hire. Classic red flag of understaffing.

      1. wen*

        It is exactly the same stuff, different job so that’s why it’s my backup! I want something different but I NEED A JOB because my contract is ending in December and my company just had a round of layoffs so I know the situation is not good. :(

        As for Job A’s rush to hire, they just want the new person to start for some handover training before the current person leaves before the holidays, so hence the rush to hire and start.

        1. Fran Fine*

          You may need to accept Job A for now, but then withdraw should you get an offer from
          Job B within the next couple weeks. But you can only do this if you don’t care about burning a bridge with Job A.

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I would reach out to Job B and ask about your status with them. They’ll tell you that you’re hired, you’re not hired, or they haven’t made a decision yet — but 2 of those 3 possible responses will be information you can act upon.

    5. AnotherLibrarian*

      Here’s another thing to consider- If Job B is still interviewing, they may not be able to make an offer. We function under rules at my work place (and I know other types of jobs with Union or Gov stuff have these rules too) that we can’t make an offer until all interviews are completed. Did you tell Job B that you have another offer? Because if I got a message from a candidate on a Friday and didn’t know why, I might not rush to get back to them.

      If you are in the running for Job B, but won’t know for another week, are you willing to take the risk? That’s the calculation I would be making right now.

  15. Green Snickers*

    If you’ve ever negotiated for a more senior sounding title with an internal promotion, what was your reasoning and how did it go over?

    I think I will be getting promoted into a title that is newly created in my department’s career framework (at my company, 95% of promotions do not require moving into an open position). The position was not created for me per se but to be frank, the title sounds very similar to current title (ex: my position is senior teapot associate and the new position is senior teapot lead). I should also mention prior to this title existing, the next step up for me was manger and included a larger salary increase.

    This mostly concerns me for my resume as I feel there isn’t a ton of differention between the 2 titles. Additionally, internally there are a much larger amount of steps between our positions than in other departments here and I don’t sound as senior as my colleagues who are more junior with less experience yet have higher sounding titles.

    I feel really strongly about a different title don’t want to purely negotiate it from the resume front since it only really affects me once I leave the job- but perhaps I’m overthinking this aspect.

    1. ThisIsTheHill*

      Do you work for a company that makes its salary bands & job descriptions public? I worked for a Fortune 10 company that did. I approached my boss & told her that my responsibilities were far above my existing role. She told me to research the various job descriptions on our Intranet to determine if another title/band was closer to what I was doing & to write a business case supporting a request for the change. It worked. I went from a specialist to administrator role (non-management).

      Good luck!

    2. BlueBelle*

      Do both positions have a role charter or job description. If so, break down that way to show that you are already doing or have the skills to do the new position. If a job description doesn’t exist create one for your current role and look online for standard job descriptions of the new title. Good luck!

      1. DogMomOnStruggleBus*

        Title changes can be cheaper (free) than raises, so if you want to be strategic about it, you can go in making the case for a raise and then pitch the title change as another option to “reflect the progress you’ve made at X”.

    3. BRR*

      I’ve used the rationale that I wanted my title to accurately reflect the work that I’m doing. It can be helpful to find similar job descriptions at competitors to try and establish that something is an industry standard.

    4. New Mom*

      I work in a finance adjacent department but it was called the Finance Department while our actual Finance Department was called Finance and Accounting. This caused a lot of confusion with clients, vendors, even internally. When I was going to take over as Director I negotiated to have the name of the department and my role title changed to match what we actually do and I focused it mostly on the confusion aspect. There was no pushback. I’m much happier with the change because when I talk with external people, it’s now a lot clearer what I do.

  16. Exhausted in Events*

    Feeling totally defeated after the events of the past week and could use some advice on how to move forward. 

    To set the scene, events recently have started back up in-person, beginning with a major event for the top leadership in our company. The planning was a mess, with a power struggle between Marketing and HR leading to a thrown-together event. The events team got removed from planning the daytime program but put on the team-building and evening reception, and then it was decided a week and a half beforehand not to use an outside facilitator, so our full team ended up in fire drill mode to come up with our own team-building program. In the end, our session ended up getting scrapped 30 minutes *after* it was supposed to begin, because the daytime speakers had run so far over time. People were frustrated and tensions have been super high. 

    Now, last week, I had an issue with one of the groups asking to throw an additional dinner into the mix for the same night as the big event. I pushed back to see if we could do another date or location but also looped my boss in so she was aware of the request. My boss then messaged me something meant for someone else (I assume) saying that she was going to have the other team copy her on all requests going forward because I just say yes to things without thinking. I didn’t know what to say – it was a punch to the gut, since I had realized it was a problem and that’s why I flagged it to her. She played her message off as a joke, but it stung a lot. 

    Then on the day of the event, I had a managing director from another office email me because she was unhappy about details for an upcoming event of hers. Again, my boss had asked me to loop her in on any conversations with this person, so I did to let her know this situation was brewing, but I was handling it. I also wanted her to know I understood her frustration from last week and wasn’t just saying yes to changes without thinking. Immediately she said to let her respond, don’t worry about this today, just focus on the other event, and to send her any other emails that I received about the issue. I was fine with that since there was a lot going on elsewhere, but throughout the morning emails were exchanged between the two of them, escalating further until my boss said she was taking me off all future projects with this person. 

    It all happened so quickly that I don’t even really understand how it happened. Then, in the thick of it all, HR pulled me aside to ask how I was. I said I was fine and hanging in there, though it was a busy day, which was not the answer they were expecting. Apparently, my boss had told them I was near tears when I came to her earlier in the day and she needed to intervene. This led to her getting a “talking to” from HR (her own words) about needing to listen to her people, and when she found out that I had told HR I was fine, her mood completely changed. 

    First, she abruptly tried to pull me off the cocktail reception and send me home, saying that she would just do it herself, but I was worried because I had vendors coming to meet me, set up to do, things to check in on, etc. Then she said fine, just go, but as I was setting up at the venue, I was getting rapid-fire emails about the things I had done wrong in the last week. After the stress of the day, I completely broke down. I was sobbing in the bathroom at the reception not 10 minutes before the guests were supposed to arrive. The way she spoke to me felt 1,000x worse than anything the director had said earlier in the day. 

    Before this, I felt that we were in a really good place in our working relationship. The day after the event, I asked her to talk with me to try to clear the air and let her know what I was thinking, and she’s pushed off the meeting for 3 days, while still sending very cold, short emails to me. 

    I’ll add in that one of the well-known things about my boss is that if she is on your “side”, it’s great, but if you “cross” her, it’s really not good for you. I mean well-known like, I went to a recent industry conference and many people said they know that about her. She has even said that herself, proudly.

    I’m at a loss of what to do here. It feels like she’s upset and retaliating, but for what, I still don’t really understand. And I don’t feel that I can go to HR for help, because that’s what seemed to really set her off when they spoke to her previously. I don’t know if I can repair this when we finally speak, but I’m extremely demoralized at the moment, especially after pulling many late nights and early mornings to try to make this event a success and feeling like it’s all been overshadowed by this drama.  

    1. Sunflower*

      Your boss sucks and isn’t going to change. I understand in some jobs, your bosses feelings on you may not matter too much but honestly, your boss controls your promotions and overall success at the company. If your boss doesn’t believe in you, I can’t see anyway you could enjoy being there or be successful in the long run. I would really start looking for a new job for your own sanity.

      What type of company do you work at? Aside from your boss, I work in events and my last 2 jobs for the last 8 years were in BigLaw and consulting and honestly, all of this sounds too familiar. I’m getting out because I’ve just found that it’s so hard to get respect working in the events department when you’re working in professional services. Late nights are expected and the reward no longer feels worth it to me after all these years.

      1. Exhausted in Events*

        Thank you for reading that novel of a story, and you nailed it. Law at the moment, and it’s so dysfunctional – and I’ve worked in a lot of dysfunctional places like non-profit and consulting before. One of the worst with gossip and disorganization.

        It’s sad because honestly up until a few weeks ago, I was fairly happy and even hoping to ask for a raise after stepping up a ton in the last year and feeling like I’ve gotten into a good groove. But I cannot let myself get into a situation again where I am killing myself for a job, crying in the office late at night, and feeling demoralized. I knew she could turn on people fairly quickly, but I didn’t think it would happen to me, because I’ve really tried to work on building a good relationship.

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          I am currently in the running for a BigLaw events job and wow, your posts have made me seriously pause and consider what I might be getting into. I’m super familiar with the general disrespect corporate event planners get but what you’re describing goes beyond what I’ve experienced and ever want to! Sending internet hugs…

          1. Sunflower*

            It definitely varies from firm to firm. My old boss works at a different firm now and absolutely loves it but agreed our old firm was awful. I’m happy to answer any questions you have- but for me the biggest issue was honestly the universal professional services model esp in high stress industries.

            I think so much of it is based on your personality and what pushes your buttons. We had a new person come in from doing restaurant and hotel sales and she could not wrap her head around the professional services model where while we are there because we are experts in our area, part of our job is also doing tedious work because the principals are too busy to do it. Additionally, its a huge shock if you come from somewhere that you are the expert in your area and the primary decision maker. At the end of the day, I have to do what the partner wants (barring ethical/legal situations) and yes, a lot of the time it does blow up as expected and as I warned but I have to put my head down and do it anyway. For me, it’s translated over to spending a lot of my time not doing events work and spending too much time worried about office politics and how to push back without bruising egos. Add in that the partners have a financial stake in the company so they tend to work crazy hours and expect others to do the same (I will say they don’t expect same hours as lawyers but they can expect crazy turnaround/response times), it becomes very painfully obvious that your late nights are probably putting 5-6 figures in the partners pockets while you’re lucky to get a 5% raise and bonus that is pennies compared to theirs.

            Reading the insights question above, I think people who identify as green/blue tend to do best in professional services support roles.

            1. Exhausted in Events*

              Whewwww did you nail it. I’m by no means new to events, but this is my first law firm and that truly sums it up. Honestly, even though it is a crazy environment, up until this week when this went down with my boss, I was even fine with just gritting my teeth and doing whatever thing the partners, HR, etc. asked and then laughing it off within our team because I felt like it was us vs. the crazy together, but this has totally changed my feelings on it.

            2. Not a Real Giraffe*

              I totally forgot to check this later in the day, so you probably won’t see this! I’ve been doing events in professional services firms for many, many years, so I totally get and agree with most of what you’re saying (I currently work in a legal-adjacent firm so I 10000% hear you on the lawyers thing). Getting non-events people to understand the stupidity of how they’re suggesting we develop/run an event is a constant struggle and you definitely have to have the right personality to thrive in that environment.

              My interview is later today so if you happen to check back and see this, let me know! I’d love to pick your brain :)

          2. Sleeping Late Every Day*

            I did events at a not-for-profit for 8 months and had to bail to save my sanity and temper. It’s pretty much getting paid to be everyone’s punching bag, and I was too close to punching back after less than a year. I took a much lower-paying no-stress job in that organization for a while, then got into a completely different field when another position opened up.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          “I knew she could turn on people fairly quickly, but I didn’t think it would happen to me, because I’ve really tried to work on building a good relationship.”

          Take this to heart: Watch how people treat others and realize in time you, too, will be treated in the same manner. This is one of those rules of thumb that hold true in life and in workplaces.

          It’s an easy pit to fall into. “Hey, I can work with difficult people. I know how. I have done it before. I won’t have the problems other people have with her.”
          NOT TRUE.

          The reality is that people like you (and me for that matter) who really work at things and try to keep a good relationship going on offer a new and higher challenge for people like your boss. It takes them longer to find something to blow up about. But eventually they find something because that is THEIR goal. See, this isn’t about you at all. It’s about the blow up and the drama, it’s so exciting. (not) And they just enjoy all this noise and chaos.
          Your boss is having a great time. And once the drama with you fizzles out, she will find someone else. You’re nothing more than her current target.

          It sounds like a lot of people around you are telling you she is toxic. This is what help looks like, all these people are helping you. Please listen to them.

          1. Fran Fine*

            I believe you gave very similar advice to me years ago when I was going by a totally different username, but your advice here still holds true. Please get out, OP. It’s only going to get worse from here – trust me. I had this boss and she eventually turned on me, her golden child employee, when I refused to fall in line and become a mini-her.

      2. The Prettiest Curse*

        As a fellow events person, I am sending you a ton of sympathy. I’ve never had to deal with working a major event at the same time as being bullied, so I just can’t imagine how awful that would be.
        It seems like you’re just not going to get any respect in your current environment and sector, so I’d suggest looking at events roles in a different area. I planned a mid-size annual medical conference in my last job, and it was (mostly) pretty enjoyable. Look around at similar events in your area to see who plans those and could be hiring. If you are looking to move out of managing events totally (and I don’t blame you if you are), good luck and go for it!

    2. Allornone*

      I sadly have no advice to offer, but I wanted to say I’m so sorry you’re going through this. You sound like you have tried to behave professionally and she is rebuffing any attempts for you two to get on the same page.

      *Internet Stranger Hug*

      1. Exhausted in Events*

        Thank you <3 even though I don't think I handled the situation perfectly (the director did have some valid questions about her event) I had no idea it would get so blown out of proportion, and it hurts that any attempts to fix it on my end have been shrugged off. I get it's probably not the most urgent thing on her plate right now, but it still hurts, especially after the other blows of the last week.

    3. Coder von Frankenstein*

      Now is the best time in years to be job-hunting.

      Just sayin’.

      Seriously, though, your boss is a horrorshow and your company sounds like a dysfunctional mess. The way to fix this is to find a new job and I would start hunting *right now*. In the meantime, keep in mind that your boss’s reactions are irrational and abusive, and they are driven not by an honest assessment of your performance but by a desire to manipulate you. (That thing where she openly says she’s great to have on your side and horrible if you cross her, that’s a giant red flag right there.)

      Best guess, your boss lied to HR about you being overwhelmed (I won’t speculate as to why). HR then talked to you, and you gave an honest answer which inadvertently exposed the boss’s lie. That, in your boss’s mind, is “crossing her,” so now you get punished. There is no way you could have avoided this and it is in no way your fault.

      As Alison is fond of saying, get out get out get out.

    4. Librarian of SHIELD*

      I understand why you’d be wary of going to HR since your last talk with them seems to have set your boss against you, but I think it’s important to remember that she was acting strangely about you and your work *before* HR approached you. And the fact that HR already knows that there’s something weird going on there might work in your favor. If it were me, I think I’d contact the same HR person who approached you last time and tell them everything that’s happened since. Something like “my boss was really upset after I talked to you last time and I feel like she’s retaliating against me for something I can’t quite pinpoint. I need you to make this behavior stop and make sure the retaliation doesn’t increase.”

      Using the word retaliation is important. It’s illegal, and any HR officer worth their salt will want to put a stop to it.

      I’m so, so sorry this situation has landed on you and I hope you and HR can get it resolved.

      1. Exhausted in Events*

        This is a valid point. I’m afraid of making it worse, but I did have some concerns beforehand, and I’m not the only team member she has behaved somewhat cruelly towards. There’s been a few incidents, but as recently as last week, a junior member of the team was cut out of a team lunch – the team member has been having some major job-related issues (definitely valid and concerning), but it still felt overly cruel to me to leave her behind in the office while we all went out, performance issues or not. It feels like a vindictive environment, unless you are in the “in” group, and I’ve found out that week that even that is tenuous at best.

        1. Librarian of SHIELD*

          I can’t remember where I heard it, but there’s a quote about how if a manager abuses everyone but you it’s not because you’re different, it’s because you’re next.

          You’ve noticed some really disturbing things about the way your boss treats people, and I feel like HR wouldn’t have reached out to you if they hadn’t noticed something similar. It’s possible that they’re looking for some confirmation of things they already suspect are happening, so if you can find a way to feel comfortable doing it and you get the impression that they’ll take the retaliation portion of this seriously, I would really encourage you to ask for a meeting.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Agree. And when you said you were fine, she went in for the kill. HR was starting to protect you there, but when you said “fine” there was nothing further they could do.
            If outsiders know how she is then I would bet HR knows also.

            You can go back and say you have additional information now.

        2. Ina Lummick*

          Ooof we did management drives which sounds similar but you don’t get any blocks. (Just a book that’s not fully translated to English.)

          However!! I’m moving desks soon and the boxes the books came in will be extremely useful to move my desk contents about! :)

    5. New Job So Much Better*

      I’m sorry you are going through this, but if I were you I’d be job hunting. Make sure you document all your successful projects and keep it on your personal computer.

      1. Pocket Mouse*

        Yes! If there are any documents you need to have access to after you leave this job, now is the time to make sure you have access to them at home.

    6. Pocket Mouse*

      Job search. Right now. It very much sounds to me like she wants you to leave and will make you leave before long if you don’t make moves first.

      She’s not setting you up for success. She may or may not be actively sabotaging you, but it’s clear she doesn’t want or trust you to do the job (sounds like she does not have good reason for this, but so it stands). I see HR coming to you as a giant red flag- that means she was talking to HR about you without you knowing. Be on the lookout for other things she’s shifting away from you or requests to do things that aren’t entirely your job purview, or that she has reason to believe you won’t do well at- she may be looking for things to document in order to build a case to fire you. It happened to me.

      What to do? Take a moment to feel the hurt, let it set in that it’s not your fault, and tell yourself you won’t get to a place of understanding what went wrong because it simply isn’t a reasonable situation. Then open a new browser window and start looking for your next job. Reach out to some of the people you met at the industry conference, even- they already know not to trust her assessment of your work.

    7. Malarkey01*

      I’m so sorry and as someone who did work in major corporate event planning way back I’ll also say this sounds pretty typical of real time event execution. Everyone is super stressed, tensions are really high, even though you weren’t on the verge of tears earlier there were eventually tears, and senior leadership requests the impossible and every is annoyed with everyone. That doesn’t make your boss’ actions okay just that it does happen in the immediate run up and during events a lot. And, there can be misunderstandings like you were fine but harried and your manager interpreted that as really upset and near tears because she was also stressed and projecting, and then maybe HR relays that you’re “totally fine not stressed at all and having a great time” and manager is like WTH why did she seem upset with me but is carefree now (AGAIN none of that is your fault but fog of event battle and high stress can quickly escalate misunderstandings).

      What I used to do in those situations is schedule a specific debrief with my boss a week after, acknowledge that things seemed off or chaotic during the event, and then ask for honest feedback, and be ready with suggestions for how things could have been handled better. I liked event planning but did not have the temperament to deal with the leadership never having their act together and constantly changing minds or providing stuff late.

      1. Exhausted in Events*

        Thank you for sharing this! I’ve been in events for quite some time, so I know this all to be true, but sometimes when you’re in the thick of it, it’s hard to remember that this is by nature a stressful industry. I think that what feels hard about this is it really felt like it was our team vs. the crazy, and my boss seemingly turning on me has been hard, but then the fact that she keeps pushing off our debrief is tough too!

        I’m hoping that she is just really busy catching up from other stuff this week and that our conversation next week goes ok, but this isn’t the first time I’ve felt this way from our interactions – for the first two to three months of my job, she barely spoke to me even though I came in as a fully remote employee and was completely lost. I just thought we were past that point in our relationship.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Putting off the debrief is part of turning on you. It’s not separate from everything else, it’s all the same storyline. She has now made herself into an angry AND inaccessible person.

          1. MissDisplaced*

            Agreed that putting off the debrief is not a good sign.
            Events are stressful. People expect the world and the executives are often unrealistic and try to throw crap in last minute with no thought as to how it can be achieved with little planning.

            A debrief/planning session can help go over what worked and what didn’t— and how you can plan this out in advance next time and stick to the schedule. But it sounds like your boss isn’t giving you that opportunity. And it’s not a good sign.

    8. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      My advice is to start job searching now. It sounds like your boss has decided they don’t like you anymore for I’ m sure some made up reason that is out of your control, and it’s better to take time you need to recover from the long work days, and then pivot to job searching. Or take time off if you have any saved without worrying about what your boss thinks, because you already know and you can’t change it. Pushing out the meeting with still sending cold emails are the signs for me.

      Hope you can land somewhere that appreciates you better!

      1. Exhausted in Events*

        Thank you! Funny enough, I started putting out applications after the first incident (the not thinking one) left me crying in the office, and I’ve got tons of interviews lined up. I was feeling guilty about it, but not after the events of this week!

  17. Poppy*

    I had an interview yesterday for a job I’m really excited about.

    I usually get bad nerves for interviews, especially when I’m particularly interested in the position (of course), and for some reason this manifests mostly when I’m asked to introduce myself, which of course is always the first question that comes up. I usually get very out of breath a few sentences in and then it lasts through my whole speech.

    Well, of course this happened again yesterday. I tried to reset by saying “OK, let me take a big breath and start again”, but it didn’t help at all and as soon as I resumed so did the breathlessness. The interviewers, who were quite nice overall, seemed understanding and even offered to let me remove my mask while finishing my introduction (little did they now the mask had nothing to do with it and it would have been just as bad – but I was kind of relieved that they thought this was the origin of the problem, not me).

    After a while I think one of them took pity on me, and while I was talking about my qualifications, cut in to say that there would be quite extensive training anyway and launched into an explanation about that, I guess to put me out of my misery by ending the “introduction” part. I was actually a little upset about it since I didn’t get to say some things I felt were important, though I did manage to insert most of it into the rest of the interview.

    In fact it got better after that initial awkwardness and I believe I managed to make some good points and didn’t come off too badly. The problem is that the position I was interviewing for is a very public-facing one, in which I would be interacting with people most of the time, even making presentations in front of (relatively small) groups of people. I think now that I should have adressed it and said that while I get very nervous when I have to talk about myself in job interviews, I am perfectly capable of engaging in public speaking in other settings.

    So, after this rather long introduction, my question is : do you think this is something I should adress in a post-interview e-mail?

    I’m wondering especially because I’m not in the US, and while thank-you notes wouldn’t be completely unheard of or wildly inappropriate here, they are also not the norm, especially for this kind of position (at a small local nonprofit organization), which also means that I don’t really have practice writing this kind of thing. Plus, they told me they were doing other interviews yesterday and today, and that I would hear back from them on Monday – so they might have already made their decision anyway. I’d appreciate any input you might have!

    1. Reba*

      I don’t think it makes sense to call attention to something that you feel didn’t go well! But, if you really want to do it, is there a way to work in the mention of public speaking, *without* criticizing your own interview performance?

      Something like, “Thank you so much for the interview. I enjoyed learning more about _____. I realized that we didn’t have the chance to talk much about the public speaking part of the role, and I wanted to underscore my ____ experience with public presentations. In fact, the public-facing parts of Current Role are some of the most satisfying parts of the job.”

    2. BRR*

      I wouldn’t address it. Putting something in a thank you note isn’t really going to change someone’s mind about something (and you don’t know what their thinking is anyways). In future interviews I might say something how you get nervous only during this and how it’s not an issue when you’re doing X & Y.

    3. curiousLemur*

      You might want to check out Toastmasters. They have a table-topic section that helps with off-the-cuff speaking. I was in Toastmasters for a while, and I think it helped my skills when being interviewed. A lot of the improvement was about taking a breath and giving myself time to think, but being able to practice it regularly helped.

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      Also, you might want to reconsider what you are doing in response to the “introduce yourself” or “tell me about yourself” question. That isn’t a request for an exhaustive rundown of your qualifications, instead it is simply a request for a quick introduction. “I’ve been a llama groomer for seven years and I’m interested in this position because I’ve been training for llama wrangling for the past two years and am ready to take that step.” Two or three sentences, tops. Practice with a friend.

      2. RagingADHD*

        This is what I was thinking. Perhaps it’s a cultural difference, but to me it seems unusual to have a prepared speech with multiple talking points for the start of an interview. Working things into the conversation is the way I’ve always done it, and all the advice I’ve seen. But again, this may be something that’s more commonly done where LW is.

        Either way, I wouldn’t try to go back and re-frame the situation. If you have experience with public speaking and presenting, and it’s on your resume or came up in discussing your qualifications, then they already know. You never know what other people are really thinking, and trying to “correct” an impression might just nudge their thinking in the wrong direction if they’d already forgotten the bad and only remembered the good.

    5. poppy*

      Thank you for your advice to all who took the time to read and respond!
      I ended up not sending a post-interview note. I received a rejection e-mail yesterday, in which they said they chose a candidate with more experience in the main job duties (can’t argue with that!)
      I will also look into shortening my interview self-introduction, you have a point that it will probably make it easier for me next time…

  18. Dino*

    My company didn’t pay us today, our normal payday. I contacted HR (since I’d recently changed my direct deposit and thought that was the issue before talking to coworkers) who punted me to payroll.

    Morale is already bad but this is new for the company. Has anyone had this happen to them, and how did it turn out?

    1. DogMomOnStruggleBus*

      This happened once to one of my coworkers when they started at a company. Your company needs to fix this immediately, or it’s a huge legal liability for them. I would make sure to put the request into writing to payroll and HR. If you’ve recently changed your bank, or they’ve changed theirs, it could process on a different day than usual, but they aren’t allowed to start the payment late.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        This happened at oldjob, & it was a bank issue. However, because one of our offices was in a state with very strict laws about paychecks, they sent an email to everyone stating that they’d cut a check that day for anyone who needed their pay immediately. (I was able to wait the 24-48 hours to get it resolved, but not everyone could.)

        Payroll needs to fix it, but HR needs to communicate to staff & handle any issues.

    2. Decidedly Me*

      I’ve had pay issues twice, but only one where I wasn’t paid. It was my bank’s fault as they bounced the payment back for some unknown reason. My company got it fixed quickly :)

    3. The Original K.*

      This happened to half the company at a previous employer – they implemented a new system and it messed up. There was a line down the hallway to HR of pissed-off employees. They resolved it in a few days and issues emergency funds to anyone who found themselves in the red as a result of the error. I assume it cost them a lot (this affected maybe two thousand people).

      Definitely document it – put it all in writing.

      1. Dino*

        Everything is in writing since we don’t have on-site HR. Yay for documentation, but boo for being unable to march down to their office and get it fixed ASAP.

    4. MisterMeeble*

      This happened to me 3 or 4 jobs ago. They were decent enough to announce it a couple of days ahead of time, so everyone knew to expect it. We actually missed 3 paychecks while some funding was tied up. I was a well-paid salaried computer programmer, so I had the means to coast. Others (like the married couple who worked in the call center and made around $10/hr each) weren’t so lucky. It really hurt them.

      Morale wasn’t terrible, but people started leaving in droves. After the third missed payday (6 weeks now) a VP called me into his office, handed me a check for all of my back pay and said sneak out and get it hammered NOW because there were limited funds and not everyone was getting this. Also to keep quiet. So I went to the bank it was drawn on and got some cash. I was made whole

      But I realized other were not and decided I can’t work for this place any more. When I got back to the office, I put in my resignation (it was to nobody’s surprise) and got another job within a couple of days. Paid a bit more, too. I figured out the company was pretty slimy, and that just sealed it. So I got my money out of it, a lot of people didn’t.

        1. Can Can Cannot*

          Ask about why this is happening. If you are not satisfied with the response, call you state department of labor. They enforce the rules about paying employees on time.

      2. KQRX, the Voice of Reason*

        Happened to all of us at a radio station I worked at, years ago. I was surprised that they were able to stay on the air for another week before the whole thing shut down without warning. Never did get paid. But I did keep coming to work for a week after the event, because I couldn’t believe the management wouldn’t tell everybody that the operation was kaput. I don’t think it happens like that very often any more.

    5. ThisIsTheHill*

      Someone once forgot to send the payroll files to the bank at a large non-profit that I worked for. We received an e-mail around 10 am letting us know. By noon, the company announced that anyone needing a paper check could request & receive one that day; otherwise, direct deposits would be processed overnight. They also covered any bank fees caused by overdrafts due to automatic payments.

    6. Panicked*

      I was a leased employee to a company that missed payroll once. It was foreshadowing of what was to come. Missing payroll can be just a one off, absolutely. However, it could also be a signifier of a major problem.

    7. Lady_Lessa*

      Start looking around at other jobs, and seeing if you could get a hard check. That might not work now, since direct deposit is the standard now.

      In the days before direct deposit, I had trouble with a similar type company, except the checks started out as rubber. I ended up going to the bank the check was written on, cashing it, and walking over to my bank and depositing the cash.

    8. Glomarization, Esq.*

      When this happened to me it was the beginning of the end of a failed start-up. We never got our last few paychecks. The CEO did it to at least one other start-up on his way to being a tech millionaire with the one start-up of his that hit gold.

    10. Beth*

      If this is the first time it’s happened, wait and see how they deal with it: how fast it’s resolved, whether they own their screw-ups, whether they apologize. Stuff does happen. If they handle the aftermath well, green flag.

      If they handle the aftermath badly, yellow flag.

      If this is not the first time it’s happened, RED FLAG.

    11. Jaid*

      Anyone remember the “Too-Big-For-Britches” boss from what, last month? Guy was pissed that his employee told payroll not to mess with her pay again AND they gave her “extra” money (no doubt to cover overdraft fees, etc.)

      Tell your boss and ask them to get payroll to cut you a check until they get your money issues straight.

    12. Water Everywhere*

      From the perspective of a payroll person: your company should be doing everything it can to get your pay to you ASAP. Processing errors happen and when a payroll deposit goes astray, our immediate response is to use whatever means are at our disposal to get employees the money owed to them FIRST. Then we sort out what went wrong and figure out how to fix it and/or prevent it happening again.

      1. Dino*

        It’s been 3 hours, no word from payroll. Others are also affected but no company wide email or other announcement. Eeeeeep.

    13. JustaTech*

      Not to me, but to a friend: Her company had just had some very major expenses (I think a building renovation?) and straight up could not make payroll on time one week. They were a day late (so some folks didn’t notice) because of a disconnect between when they had to pay the contractors and when they were getting paid by their clients.

      My friend had more insight than the rest of the employees about what was going on, so she out it in the “things to watch out for” category. But this was also a very small organization and they were only a day late. A bigger organization that can’t make payroll (as opposed to messed up sending the money but they’re good for it) is a *giant* red flag.

    14. I'm just here for the cats!*

      Yes it happened to me and it sucked. It was even worse because it was paper checks, over the memorial day holiday. Supposed to be paid on Friday but the boss didn’t feel like going to the main branch of the store (about an hour round trip) to get the checks. I had plans to go to my best friends graduation but had to cancel at the last minute because I had no money.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        Years ago, my pay was delayed, because it was all paper checks (early 90s) from a large company where payroll was in the Northeast & we were in the Midwest. A huge snowstorm delayed shipment. Luckily, it was only a few days, & most of us weren’t relying on the job for our livelihood. (Mainly PT staff. I was a college student. I needed my pay, but I could wait a couple days.)

    15. I'm just here for the cats!*

      I would also check your state labor laws. Some states have regulations that if you aren’t paid when you are supposed to that there are penalties and such

      1. Dino*

        It looks like they have until next week to pay before penalties start. Too bad I don’t live in California!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Someone at my former company decided I no longer worked there and deleted me. I guess they ignored the hours sheet my boss submitted? Anyway, they offered to pay any charges I incurred because of bounced checks or auto-withdrawals.

          Keep your boss looped in. Good bosses are highly motivated to make sure their people get paid.

    16. The Ginger Ginger*

      If this isn’t a bank error, or a new system error, or whatever (and if it WERE, I’d have expected that announcement to happen as fast as possible so people don’t panic), this is a VERY bad sign. You need to be job hunting yesterday, and I’d start locking down your finances and making plans under the assumption that things are going sideways – as in the downward spiral is ALREADY IN PROGRESS, not that it’s just now starting. Once companies can’t cut pay checks, they can’t retain workers; work cannot be completed, and new and current business can’t be supported. A company-wide missed paycheck that is funds related and not error-related is 100% the writing on the wall (it should be the LAST writing on the wall, because I bet there have already been signs). You need to bail as quickly as you feasibly can.

      And don’t KEEP working for them for nothing on the promise of a future paycheck. That almost never works out.

      1. PollyQ*

        1000000% all of this. The fact that this isn’t being addressed by management is just as bad as the fact that you haven’t got paid. Start job-hunting NOW.

    17. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      Yes, this happened at OldJob. I remember a December we got paid so late a couple coworkers had to take loans to pay the bills. The owners loved blaming someone else – the bank, the accountant, the weather, Jupiter in retrograde. I’m glad I no longer work there.

    18. Dragon*

      Many years ago FormerJob was transitioning the company one office at a time, from a 24-pay-period system to a 26-pay-period system.

      The New York office was the last to move over. Because of that state’s tax system, to accommodate the transition the company was going to do a one-time exception in which two paychecks would be three weeks apart.

      I was able to handle that financially, but of course a lot of colleagues couldn’t. They howled, the company handled it differently and everyone got over the hump. The dumbest part was actually the payroll manager who actually thought, three weeks between paychecks, what’s the big deal?

    19. mreasy*

      This happened once due to a combination of severe personal circumstances in the payroll dept. Everyine mobilized to make sure we were paid within 24 hours and the company offered to pay any overdraft or late fees any employee incurred. If they aren’t taking this seriously it’s a red flag.

  19. DogMomOnStruggleBus*

    We got a puppy a few months ago and I’m taking care of her most of the time while working from home full time and also job searching. Does anyone have tips for how to better meet my pup’s needs during the work day?

    She barks and bites a lot and is very clever so the food puzzles are over quickly. I just got put on a PIP at my current (and unreasonable) workplace and the feedback they gave me was that my dog was too distracting, and that I wasn’t attending enough work social events (during the pandemic). Work asks me to be on >20 hours a week of Zoom meetings plus spur of the moment long phone calls. This already wasn’t working for me on its own but also makes it much harder to have time for quick breaks to play, train, and walk with her.

    1. ThatGirl*

      You might want to consider doggy daycare a few days a week, if that’s affordable – it would give her socialization time and give you distraction-free days. While your current workplace may well suck, it’s not unreasonable for a job to want you to not be constantly distracted, whether that’s by a baby, puppy, spouse or something else altogether.

    2. CCC*

      Why not hire someone to play with and walk the puppy for 1-2 hours during or right before the busiest parts of your day, or bring her to daycare on busy days?

      Getting her on a schedule might also help. No impromptu breaks, only scheduled ones that get further apart as she ages. Crate train her (train her, don’t just throw her in there) so during important meetings she’s content to be in her crate.

      1. Justin*

        Yep. We crate trained from day one, and eventually he grew out of it but it helped a lot.

        Hire a walker, sign up for a training class, find a daycare if you can. Etc. We did all of this stuff and it all helped.

        Not cheap though.

      3. DogMomOnStruggleBus*

        Thanks! Yes to clarify, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to not be distracted during the work day! I meant that my company is very unreasonable in general: we don’t have HR, my workload tripled after a lot of turnover, and I get reprimanded for any sound in my home, including the HVAC system.

    3. CBB*

      It sounds like you either need to fully throw yourself into achieving the PIP, or accept it as an invitation to resign.

      If you choose the former, I would put her in daycare. It sounds like you have a job that needs your full attention while you’re on duty. I’ve had similar jobs, and I couldn’t imagine trying to care for a puppy at the same time.

    4. Mrs.KAE*

      Are you crating your puppy during the work day? How much and how often are you training with her?

      I moonlight as a dog trainer so this is right up my alley.

      If you got a puppy a few months ago I’m assuming at least 5 months old–potty break schedule here may need to be adjusted if the puppy is any younger. Puppies and dogs sleep A LOT. But puppies often won’t unless they are confined/getting enforced naps. A crate or play pen will be your friend. Crate the dog away from you–not in your work area.

      A basic pet person puppy schedule for someone who works from home (assuming 8-5, adjust as needed) that I would recommend would be:
      6:30: Human wake up/morning routine
      6:45: puppy potty break
      7:00-7:10: hand feed puppy breakfast–use as training time. No more than 5-8 minutes. Practice basic behaviors sit/down/stay/handling for grooming/tricks, really whatever you want to work on.
      7:10-7:30: walk puppy if you want, or play fetch/with toys–interactive play
      7:30: Puppy goes in crate with a chew (bully stick, frozen kong, etc)
      12:00 – potty break and lunch time. Feed puppy lunch, again, hand feed these meals! It is a great way to make sure you are practicing obedience & tires out your puppy far more than a bunch of physical exercise. 3-8 minutes, max. Keep it fast and fun. Again another opportunity for interactive play, fetch, walks, whatever.
      1:00: puppy back in crate.
      5:00: Potty break, back in crate
      5:00-6:30 – do your job searching stuff
      6:30 – feed puppy dinner, hand feeding again. Seriously. Hand feed meals.

      After that– more play, walks, whatever. Another 30-45 min of active interaction with puppy in the evening & then do (supervised) free time while you are cooking dinner, watching TV, etc. Will likely need to do another potty break around 8pm, and then again right before bed.

      MANY puppies get barky and bitey because they are overtired and CRANKY – much like toddlers. They tend to have a really hard time relaxing on their own when they aren’t confined–so you end up with a huge distraction when you are trying to work. Add in crating or a play pen and once your puppy gets used to the confinement (which is a good skill to have, in general) I promise that puppy will be sound asleep while crated.

      If you aren’t already, highly recommend taking a puppy class. Dog training is one of those things you don’t know how much you don’t know until someone shows you a better way to do it.

      1. DogMomOnStruggleBus*

        Thank you so much for this! Seeing an example of the schedule is really helpful! I crate her overnight for sleep, but have been using a playpen for when I need to leave the house for an errand, or when I’m cleaning, or she’s getting overwhelmed.

        Thank you for saying the part about being overtired! I am concerned that that is what happening, because she doesn’t sleep as much as I expected for her age, and I’ll definitely try a crate nap set up with a routine.

        We did two sets of training classes, so I have some basic commands and tricks down, but I am always down to learn more!

        1. Cle*

          Set it up so she has access to the crate while in the playpen, and keep the play area pretty small. If the crate is the sleeping place, she may prefer to go in there to nap. She might even think that “not in crate = time to play/get attention.”
          The sample schedule is great! Practicing training every day gives them something to focus on; that’s especially important for any dog that has “working dog” in its history. Some dogs will just never be content unless you give them a little job every day, even if that little job is just sitting/staying/etc.

          One last tip– your dog will take her cues from you. If you are constantly thinking about her, looking at her, checking on her, making a fuss over her, etc., then she will do the same. Watching for your own bad habits is the easiest way to start. If you fuss over her when you put her in her crate, she will fuss when you put her in there. If you look to her for attention through the workday, she will look to you for attention all day. If you make a big deal out of leaving the house, she will make a big deal over you leaving the house. There’s obviously a lot more to dog training than that, but demonstrating the behavior and norms you want to see from her goes a longggg way.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            I agree.

            Puppies have a huge amount of energy and they really need to blow it out.
            You can feed the pup something with turkey in it – as turkey can be a downer. I use this on my dog even in his adult years.
            You can investigate chewies, something to occupy her time and tire her out.

            I use a spritzer with water. I issue a command once. If it’s not complied with I pick up the spritzer and say it again. On the third go around I squirt the pup/dog. (NEVER in the face/ears- always toward the back, butt, or legs. A friend says I am a very good shot with this thing. Yeah, lots of practice.)

            Do this when you are not online, too. It might take a short bit, but it should work into all you do is pick up the spritzer and she stops doing whatever.

            Play a radio softly for her, if you keep her in another room. Sometimes this helps them to settle.

            If you are nervous, worried, jumpy, whatever, your pup will tend toward that direction also. Try to show the pup that you are confident you can take good care of her and she is safe with you. Don’t skip this step. Dogs pick up on stuff scary fast. My dog was about a year old when I hurt my back. I was limping and dragging myself through this house. My dog went to the window and stared up the street for a bit, then stared down the street. He was intense. It dawned on me. He thought we needed help and he was looking for someone to come help us. When a friend stopped by later, he went back to his dog bed. Make sure you dog sees that you are confident and will take care of her and you.

    5. Forkeater*

      +1 to getting on a schedule. I take my dog for a long walk before the day starts, and then she’s usually worn out and will sleep mostly till noon, when we can go on another long walk. That gets us to about 3:30 when she thinks it might be dinner time (it isn’t). But it helps a lot.

    6. Chauncy Gardener*

      Can you take her out in the morning before you start work and at lunch and REALLY tire her out? Our old dog trainer once said “a tired dog is a good dog, an EXHAUSTED dog is a great dog!”
      Obviously not exhausted to the point of being sick or whatever, but you get the point!

      1. Sandman*

        Yes, and our trainer has mentioned to us that mental exercise can be just as important as physical exercise, and just as effective in tiring the pup out. Fifteen to thirty minutes of training time along with the morning walk/run/ball throw could make a big difference.

    7. Sandman*

      We do doggie daycare with our dog and it makes a huge difference in sanity even though he’s not a puppy anymore. If you’re on a PIP and one of the reasons was your dog, I’d give it some serious consideration.

  20. A Very Hungry Moose*

    Hi everyone,
    At my therapist’s advice, I’m looking into resources on ADHD in women–any specifically work- or school-related resources you’ve found helpful? I’m hyper-organized, but can’t seem to get the headspace to tackle larger, long-range projects. The planning and breaking things down is fine–it’s my super-power. The execution is meh. Anything helpful out there?

    1. DogMomOnStruggleBus*

      Hey, I’d love to hear about these too! I like the blog “Black Girl, Lost Keys” as one resource. One of the things she talks about is ADHD coaching. I’m not sure how much that costs though.

      This isn’t necessarily helpful for long projects, but once I break something down into smaller steps, I like to use a stopwatch or productivity cube (just a very tactile timer) to give myself only 10-20 minutes to try to tackle that one task.

    2. Justin*

      In a way, before my diagnosis (I’m a man, but I still think I can be useful), I had learned to always have something interesting as an option, so that if my focus waned I could jump to something else. However, I had to choose the other options well.

      So if I was doing a long, dull project at work (which is my job, and it is why I want to leave, especially with my diagnosis now), I would, just as an example, I’m gonna work on this from 9:30-10, then I’m going to do this fun thing from 10-10:30, etc etc. I basically always have a lot of fun side projects and it helps me hyperfocus in between.

    3. Eldritch Office Worker*

      This is hard without more information, because ADHD presents differently in different people. What part of the execution is tripping you up?

      If it’s just powering through the work, try the Pomodoro method. You can google it, but it’s basically 15 minutes of work followed by 15 minutes of rest. I find I don’t actually *do* that, I tend to find a rhythm and keep going, but when you’re getting started the idea of a 15 minute sprint is a lot less daunting than the idea of a long marathon.

      I am also someone who works best under deadlines so giving myself hard deadlines for things helps. “I have 15 chunks to this project all due by June 1” is different than “this chunk is due January 15”, mentally.

      Also – are you medicated? If you’re taking an ADHD med figuring out when it kicks in and timing your intake so it kicks in when you start working can help.

      1. Rosie*

        agreed I’ll pomodoro to start a task and if I find myself in a groove I’ll stop setting the timer but it def helps power through when i’m struggling

      2. Your local password resetter*

        Not a woman, but I had a similar experience.
        Focusing on small starting steps makes it a lot easier to start, because I’m not intimidated/confused by the Big Thing, and my brain doesn’t have time to wander off to something else.

        Pomodoro didnt work too well, because I also have to keep going, and the start-stop rythm undermined that.

    4. Tex-ish*

      It might sound silly, but color coding helps me with this stuff. I work in Excel sheets for a lot of my job, so I have overhauled them and done a bunch of conditional formatting with check boxes and such so that when I complete a stage or mark something as needing to be done, things are immediately put in different color blocks. It gives my brain a snapshot of how much of each kind of task needs to get done or where things are in the process, how much has been accomplished, how much is left, etc. It’s a bit like frontloading the emotional/mental labor, and instead of having to keep up that level of investment in the organization of the work to ensure it gets done long-term, I can just click, color code, and give my brain that quick hit of satisfaction. Keeps the train moving.

      In my personal life, I do the same with a white board and color-coded dry erase markers. I don’t quite know why colors help my brain feel less anxious versus other coping mechanisms, but I’m glad it works!

      1. Brrrrr*

        So if I have a validation box (i.e. drop-down that I click yes or no) – can I set it up so the cells in that row or column change color automatically? If that is the case, I am so excited! And can you share how you do it? Thank you!

        1. Hlao-roo*

          In Excel, you can change the color of a cell based on the text/number in that cell. It’s called “conditional formatting” and the button for it is in the Home ribbon (in the Styles section). I’m sure there are lots of tutorials you can look up online to walk you through the process.

        2. Tex-ish*

          Yup, yup! Just like Hlao-roo says below, you can accomplish it through conditional formatting. You can do it for a whole sheet, a row, a column, or a specified range. Just highlight the area you want it to affect, go to format > conditional formatting > new rule > and make the condition that “Text is Exactly” and input one of the choices from your dropdown list and choose an associated fill color. Add a new rule for each different choice/color you need. Boom! Should work.

          1. Brrrrr*

            Sweet! This will make some of my more mundane projects more exciting and easier to keep track of where I’ve left off….

    5. Coder von Frankenstein*

      For me (male, but primarily inattentive ADHD, which I gather is more common for women), the thing that helped was being accountable to someone else. If I promise someone else that I’m going to have X ready by tomorrow at 10 AM, that does wonders for my ability to actually make it happen. If I don’t have that promise to keep me honest, I can delay and delay and delay.

      (This was a strategy developed while I was unmedicated. I finally started medication for the first time last week and it has so far been amazing–it’s like I have three times as many hours in the day. Man, if I had known this 20 years ago…)

      1. A Very Hungry Moose*

        Yes, inattentive! This is a good idea for me, I think. I’m so organized but I have no sort of reporting structure. I’m also not on meds but considering it.

        1. Coder von Frankenstein*

          The main effect I have found from the meds (with the caveat that I’ve only been on them a week) is that I can now say to myself, “I am going to do this thing,” and then I just–do the thing. No procrastinating, no bouncing away after 10 minutes to goof off for half an hour, no veering down irrelevant off-ramps. If I get a list of tasks lined up, I can just power through them, one two three.

          It sounds like that’s exactly what you’re struggling with, so I would definitely give it a try and see if it helps.

          1. RagingADHD*

            Yes, that’s the thing that’s so hard to express, and that non-ADHD people don’t get. They can just *decide* to do something, and then do it. When the connection between your decider and your do-er is broken or kludged up, getting it reconnected is a revelation.

          2. Your local password resetter*

            Wait. Hold up.
            There are people who can actually do that? Like real-life people? You dont have to trick and wrestle your brain into cooperating all day long?

            …I think I need to go talk to my doctor about meds.

    6. Fresh Cut Grass*

      The most helpful tip I’ve had for breaking things down is that if you’re having a hard time approaching a task, you need to break it down further. Break it down until it’s a task that’s so small that you cannot possibly fail or get confused.

      On good days, my list of tasks might look like those of my neurotypical colleagues– get coffee, reply to that email, check the llama server status, etc. On a bad day, that same list might look like: stand up, wash mug, make coffee, drink coffee, open outlook, reply to email, connect to llama server remote desktop, check server status log, etc. And I always try to actually write these things down and cross them off as I go! (Yes, I will put coffee on my to-do list, because sometimes executive dysfunction means I struggle to even do that, so it’s worth my time to get it on the list. And it gives me something to check off right at the start!)

    7. RagingADHD*

      I always recommend, for anyone, the book “Smart but Scattered,” because it gives a helpful strengths-based framework for using your executive skill strengths to help compensate for your weaknesses.

      I describe the mental block or overwhelm of being unable to tackle something as the “can’t evens,” and the opposite of that as the “might as wells.” Might as well sit down with my notebook and jot down an outline for that project. Might as well open up all the files on the computer and look over the material. Might as well pick up all these papers and put them in a folder.

      The thing about breaking down tasks is that you have to break them down into specific physical actions (sit down with notebook, open files, apply eyeballs to words, put papers in folder) that are a) so stupid easy that you could basically trip and fall on top of them and they’re done, and b) put you in a situation where you might as well keep going.

      Meds don’t work for everyone, but when they work they are very helpful. Trying them is also extremely low risk. My doctor was very clear when I was worried about the meds, that the amount of caffeine I was consuming to get through the day was far more concerning long term than the meds were. Like, doctor made the shock face and recoiled, type concerning.

    8. PeanutButter*

      LOL You sound like me. I’m actually very, very good at planning things, long or short range. I’m very, very good at taking other peoples’ plans/schedules and executing them. I am AWFUL at being both the planner and executor. XD I’m now learning those skills at 37 after being diagnosed with ADHD last year and getting on meds.

      The big thing my therapist told me that has really helped – don’t assume that the fault is IN YOU if a particular method doesn’t work. For example, I know many ADHD people who find the Pomodoro method helpful. It’s a f’in disaster for me. I cannot switch tracks that fast. I keep looking forward and thinking about what I’m going to do with my break time instead of actually working. When I realized I was allowed to just STOP trying to do methods that weren’t working, it was a huge relief and I was able to try more things until I found methods that worked for me. (All of my methods are different for different tasks.)

      Things that have helped me:

      * Outlook shortcuts and Quick Tasks. I set up a few so it’s literally 1-2 clicks on an email to create reminders and appointments. I forward the alerts to my phone. I do this for everything, even “Bring that book Chelsea wants to borrow” for non-private stuff I keep the titles public and my team will sometimes teasingly remind me if they spot it on my calendar. My team knows they can add reminders to my calendar and I will not get upset.

      * Work-only Bullet Journal. I’m not talking about the beautiful, organized spreads you see on insta. My work Bullet Journal is a hot mess BUT it has helped me keep things on track, and it came it super handy when my evaluations rolled around because I could read back through everything and see what I actually accomplished (I’m an informatician in an academic research lab, and none of the experiments really produced publishable results so instead of citing papers I worked on I was able to show all the analysis and tools I developed.)

      * Habitica

    9. bardicartist*

      I recommend “The ADHD Friendly Lifestyle” podcast (written for women) and “Hacking Your ADHD” podcast (written for everyone)

    10. Nela*

      The only thing that worked for me for long-term projects is to have deadlines and outside accountability. I’m also hyper organized and neat, but I lose steam very quickly.

      With my first self-published book I hired an editor and had to send her my chapters by a certain deadline, and I set and publicized the book launch date 6 months in advance. I put my back against the wall and had to do it!
      I haven’t committed to any schedule or date with my second book, and it’s dragging on for so long despite being a much shorter book.

      Podcast recommendation: ADHD for Smart-ass Women. There are episodes about tactics for getting things done.

  21. H*

    Hi friends!
    I am a non-exempt salaried comms professional gaining graphic design training on my own dime outside of work. I’m wondering if anyone know what the regulations/norms are about contracting graphic design projects with my employer outside of my existing role (assuming I work on them off the clock)?

    I’ve been looking for a question that I think I remember Alison answering about an employee who’s employer commissioned art (separate from her job for them). Would it make a difference that graphic design isn’t totally outside the scope of my job? I do basic design stuff, but we’ve traditionally contracted large projects with a freelance designer, and I would not be able to complete those projects within my 40-hour work week on top of my other responsibilities.

    Thoughts?

    1. 867-5309*

      I cannot speak to the legalities but can speak to the norms, since I’m in a executive in this field… I would not likely pay my comms employee(s) to freelance separately for graphic design – I would continue to use outside resources to keep things clean. If the role needed it, then I would add that to their existing responsibilities and structure or restructure accordingly. Because you are already doing SOME design, it’s too closely related to say firmly here is where regular work ends and “freelance” would begin.

    2. ArtK*

      I doubt very much that they would be open to this. The laws about employees and the laws about contractors are different (and differ state-to-state.) This would put you in both categories and I can’t imagine how they would be able to handle that.

      Freelancing for someone else is a different topic; the only barriers that I can see is if your conditions of employment forbid that kind of thing (say, the work is too close to what they already do, or you want to freelance for a competitor) and your time.

  22. not gonna use my regular name for this*

    Tis the season of gifting up, but my story today isn’t even holiday related.

    There’s a bit of tension between the executives/administration of my organization, and the regular staff who don’t make 6 figures and actually have to work with the policies put in place without their input.
    Policies that included not allowing the all-staff email to be used to rally support for staff in crisis (catastrophic injuries, house fires, etc). Which like, ok, fine.
    Well, last week we all get an email from the organization president (!) informing us that one of the VPs (head of HR) of had been in a car accident and was laid up at home–and asking for volunteers from the staff to perform such services as bringing her home-baked meals, walking her puppy, running errands, and taking her to appointments. Now, in a charitable moment, I can say yes, these things I’m sure would be appreciated by anyone laid up with a serious injury. But this is one of the highest paid employees of the organization. She doesn’t live alone.
    To top it off, the president made a google sheet for people to sign up for cooking/dog-walking/etc. So it’s not at all anonymous to the president who’s helping. Not to mention that the HEAD OF HR should not be using the unpaid labor of under-paid staff whose employment she has a significant impact on.

      1. pancakes*

        Good question!

        It is really something that neither the VP or the president is uncomfortable with this sign-up sheet. Yikes. I hope no one signs up for anything.

    2. The Spiegs*

      Wow, that’s pretty heavy handed and insensitive. No advice but that totally sounds like something that would have happened at a previous job, where top directors were treated vastly differently from the peons- I mean regular staff. I feel for you!

    3. urguncle*

      I can see it as a very very temporary measure (literally like 24 hours of help so she/family can get stuff planned. How are people not uncomfortable about this?

    4. Fiona*

      Wow. That’s totally inappropriate and an abuse of power, especially since the “lower” level staff have been admonished for using a mass email for similar requests. If colleagues or friends want to mobilize on their own to help this person, fine. But a Google sheet from the president? Not okay.

    5. Kathenus*

      Not sure whether this is a snarky or serious reply, but you can email the leadership and say that it’s great that the organization now supports all staff emails and setting up assistance for employees with hardships, and how much it will help other employees in need in the future.

    6. I'm just here for the cats!*

      I wonder if the VP that’s hurt even wants this. If I was her I would be super annoyed and awkward that my employees are bringing me food, running errands, and walking my dog! Way crossing the line. Especialy if they don’t allow this for lower level workers.

    7. Cheezmouser*

      Wow, this seems way out of line and I wonder if the president is aware how this might be perceived. Asking for well wishes or signing a staff get-well-soon card is fine, but not dog walking, running errands, or driving to appointments. That is for the VP’s family to arrange. Someone might want to pull the president aside (or email the president anonymously) to let them know that the optics appear in inappropriate or tone-deaf at best, or an abuse of power at worst. It seems the president–who probably works very closely with the VP of HR and perhaps considers her a personal friend–maybe just assumed that everyone would jump at the chance to help out the VP just like the president would. Perhaps someone could politely suggest that it would be better if the company itself offered to pay for a dogwalker or a meal delivery service or whatnot, instead of asking employees to volunteer unpaid labor.

      (Hundred bucks says the president is one of those “we are all family” leaders who is taking that a little too literally.)

  23. Hazel*

    I have an issue with my new boss that I don’t know how to deal with.

    I work in my company’s HR department – it’s just me and the HR Manager, who started 4 months ago after my previous boss left. Over the past number of weeks, she has started berating colleagues and complaining about them to me in an unprofessional manner. Her issues seem to be personal opinions and there seems to be no evidence for them at all. When talking about them, she always says, “this is confidential – but I’ll tell you because you’re in HR” and then start on a rant about an employee she doesn’t like. The overall tone is bitchy, gossipy and mean.

    I’ve worked with these colleagues for longer than her (18 months) and haven’t seen any proof or evidence of her issues. I feel very uncomfortable when she starts these conversations and hate having to listen to them. Also, I am fearful that due to her role she might try to fire or demote them; purely because she doesn’t like them.

    Does anything have any suggestions or advice on what to do?

    1. MisterMeeble*

      This is going to take a lot of courage and finesse at first, but shoudl get easier. I would start by asking if the rants and gossip were related to an actionable item on your part when they start. As in, “Oh we’re talking about Sally now. Is this something I need to make notes on for an action, or is this just chit chat? If it’s chit chat, I’m in the middle of something and can’t do it.”

      And if that doesn’t work, I’d even be a bit more direct, as in “You keep bringing up various issues like the time you didn’t like Sally’s blouse, and seem to pick on the same people. Is this idle gossip or do we need to take actions? If it’s gossip, that makes me very uncomfortable, is borderline unprofessional, and needs to stop, please.”

      If that more direct (and admittedly scary thing to say) approach isn’t working, does this person have a supervisor with whom you can express your concerns?

    2. Beth*

      Your boss, who runs HR, and has only been there a few months, regularly rants to you about her personal dislike of individual colleagues? This sounds like a MAJOR problem to me. Is there anyone you should report her to? I would be worried that her terrible opinions would affect her professional performance. She’s already demonstrating unprofessional behaviour on a daily basis.

      1. anonymous73*

        I would 100% report her. This is unacceptable behavior for any manager but even more so for an HR manager. If I were OP, I would tell her that the ranting is inappropriate, ask her to stop and not engage.

    3. blood orange*

      Since this is your manager, you’re going to need to be delicate in how you approach this. However, it’s in everyone’s best interest that you do as she is compromising the integrity of your department and the work that you do.

      Regarding the petty gossip she’s bringing to you, I’d start by showing her that you’re a professional who can’t engage in this kind of chatter particularly in light of your role in HR. You can address it next time she starts on a gossip rant, or have a broader conversation with her. For example, “I know you’re comfortable chatting with me about our colleagues because we deal with confidential information, but if I’m honest it makes it difficult to be impartial about those employees, which is really important to me. If you feel anything is related to someone’s job performance, could we have those conversations with that person’s manager so we can help them problem-solve?”

      From what you’ve said, I’d be really concerned about her ability to be impartial in her work, which is a key aspect of HR. If you have that conversation with her, and she either doesn’t stop gossiping or you see other concerning behavior that compromises your department, you may want to consider speaking with your grand-boss (or however that would look depending on your org structure).

        1. blood orange*

          My pleasure! For what it’s worth, I’ve been in HR for several years, and what you’ve described would make me really uncomfortable.

    4. Acme HR*

      I don’t know if I have much advice for you, but your situation is a little more extreme version of what I came to ask about! So you have all the commiseration from me.

      My boss is the head of HR and tends to go on rants in our one on ones when she’s frustrated with others in the team. You’d think she would know better! Can you imagine if I were the one doing that? I’m currently on her good side but it makes me think she’d be awful if I disagreed with her on anything strongly. She’s also effusive with praise for me publicly but not for others and it makes me feel awkward.
      It also just is a waste of time, in my opinion. I should’ve spotted this as a red flag in the interview, when she went off on a spiel that didn’t answer a question I asked, to the point that I forgot my original question so I couldn’t follow up.

      It sucks, and it makes me feel that she’s just not the role model I was hoping to have in this field (I’m new to this company, which is otherwise actually pretty good.)

      1. Acme HR*

        I should note that the major difference is that my boss’s complaints are work and performance related, so while it is sometimes relevant to a particular subject, it still feels very inappropriate. I want to be like, woman, rant to your therapist or take this to your boss for guidance (though I swear she even speaks about the CEO as if they were a colleague she finds unusual.)

  24. Annie*

    So I work in academic administration, and I recently took a lateral move within the same division, which means my old manager is still technically my manager on paper. I was fine with a lateral move because it was a better fit for my skillset, but because of University HR rules, I couldn’t get any kind of pay raise because my old and new positions were on the same salary grade. And I was annoyed but fine with that until my old job got posted last week…with a title bump and at a higher salary grade, and yet requiring no more experience or education than when I got hired 6 years ago.

    Thankfully with this new job I have an office with a door that I can shut, because I cried for 45 minutes straight when my boss sent an email blast about the job posting. I know I wasn’t a star performer all the time, but it feels like a total gut punch for it to be reclassified immediately after I left, as if I didn’t deserve the bump in title/pay at any point in the last 6 years.

    I’m meeting (via zoom) with my boss in a couple of hours and I could really use some help with a script, because I don’t want to cry (I might anyway; I’m a crier when I’m frustrated or upset). So far I’ve got “Can you walk me through your thought process in reclassifying my old job in both title and salary grade, while not requiring any additional education or experience?” but I would welcome any and all other suggestions.

    1. Forkeater*

      Oh, that really sucks! I hope they make it right for you. I think the language you’re considering sounds perfect. For me, when I know I’m going to be emotional, I write down exactly what I want to say, and keep it handy so I can refer to it. Good luck!

    2. Joyce To the World*

      I am a crier. Recently had some conflict at work and I found that it really helped to write down the key points I wanted to make. I tried to stick to those key points in a calm and non emotional manner. Also, smile stupidly the whole time. Apparently it is hard to cry when you are smiling.

    3. JelloStapler*

      I’m so sorry, I work in higher ed and this thing happens all the time and it definitely hits you hard.
      If it helps us just as likely that the newly graded position doesn’t allow for any more pay either.

    4. The New Normal*

      When something similar happened to me, I ended up having to bring my bargaining unit representative into meetings with me. I ended up with back pay (retroactive to when I took on the task that the boss said moved my position up a level) and was moved to that salary level at my current position. It also triggered my bargaining unit to create a taskforce to review salary disparities. After a year of working with the University, nearly every support staff received a salary increase.

      I think your suggestion is a good place to start. But really – I would reach out to your union/bargaining rep for help as well.

    5. not a doctor*

      FWIW, it probably wasn’t a comment on you and your performance! You SHOULD be aggrieved, but be aggrieved about the *fact* that you were underpaid, not the idea that you did anything to deserve being underpaid (or that they felt that way about you).

      The reality is that they probably paid you what they did because they could, and now they’ve realized that a new hire in that role will be looking for more money. This happens a lot, and it’s generally the result of companies suddenly facing a strong employment market and a lack of applicants who want to be underpaid.

      1. Purple Cat*

        Yes, this is excellent advice. A lateral move is a lateral move, so *of course* the company will change your current role to match.

      2. Leslie_NopeNopeNope*

        I recently left the banking industry, and this was sadly very common for people who had been there awhile. I saw salary increase requests come in all the time and was shocked by how little some people in vital roles were making. Their managers would request raises for them because they knew they could easily go elsewhere and get a huge increase. So don’t blame yourself for this. I’ve seen people who were considered absolute rockstars making well below what they’re worth, even after leadership was made aware and gave them a raise.

    6. Kathenus*

      Maybe a different angle to try? You were told that you were given a lateral move to your old position. Your old position, with the same education requirements and job duties is now reclassified to a higher salary grade. That means that your lateral position should be reclassified as well and you should get a commensurate salary increase.

  25. Rayray*

    Anyone else not looking forward to Holiday celebrations in the office?

    I just don’t really care for it at my current company. Last year for those of us who were on site, we did a secret Santa and ornament decorating where you made one and then picked one to take home. It was organized by coworkers not in management and while it was well intentioned, not very fun. I know the recipient of my secret Santa gift didn’t like their gift but we had never really spoken. Then of course the few that went way over the agreed budget.

    This year I am on a different team in the same dept. fortunately we have all agreed we don’t want to do a secret Santa. A homemade rehire elephant gift exchange was brought up, and someone else suggested hanging stockings we could all fill with stuff. I’m rubbish at homemade stuff and the stocking idea could add up cause we invited a couple other teams. I’d have to get candy or dollar store junk to not spend too much (approximately 15-20 ppl across all teams included) We don’t HAVE to participate so I probably won’t but I know I’ll look like a Scrooge.

    Can we just do with coworker gifts? Let’s just do the office lunch and call it good.

      1. Ashley*

        A homemade white elephant sounds terrible!
        The best white elephant I did was where someone who was a collector of stuff (slightly hoarder) supplied all the presents. It made it no stress and fun for everyone including the collector who got to get rid of stuff.

    2. CBB*

      No one has ever called me a Scrooge for quietly sitting out activities. The original Scrooge didn’t just disregard Christmas — he activity interfered with his coworker’s enjoyment of it. As long as you don’t do that, I think you’ll be fine.

    3. WellRed*

      I’m not sure what a homemade white elephant is but in general loathe the idea of requiring homemade gifts especially in an office because yes, a lot of people don’t have those skills (or materials just waiting around to be crafted into something).

      1. Beth*

        The only place I ever worked where it made sense to do homemade gifts was in a costume shop, where the entire workforce was hired to, y’know, make stuff. We had free rein to use any supplies in the storeroom, and a limit of $5 to spend outside of that. It was one of the few gift exchanges I’ve ever done that did not suck.

        I don’t work in theatre any more, and my current company does NOT do office Xmas, and I love it.

      2. NervousNellie*

        For one of our White Elephants, a lady who pressed her own wine brought a bottle. I asked if homemade gifts were allowed. They said “they need to be worth something” which I thought was a bit insulting at the time, and now find very insulting, but for the next round, I made something in my workshop that was A Very Popular Item on Etsy. The person who got it loved it, but it otherwise got a lot of shade from people who thought it was a cheap and easy project (it’s not.) Homemade seems very fraught.

    4. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      The “fill a huge assembly line of stockings but don’t spend too much money” situation is nuts.

      Don’t participate. I mean, what would you get from this exercise? a sock full of plastic crap and sugar?

      The join in on a project thing is adorable if it’s an activity you can do during a holiday gathering, but anything requiring substantial crafting (and I say this as a chronic crafter) or otherwise coming up with presents for coworkers that you may or may not know or like should be 100% judgement-free skippable.

      Lunch is awesome. Put some tiny candies on the tables as decoration and people who feel like they need a takeaway can grab a handful.

    5. anonymous73*

      Let them call you a Scrooge. If you don’t want to participate, then don’t. I refuse to be bullied into forced fun at work. If people don’t like me because I refuse to participate in non-work activities so be it – I don’t really care.

    6. Cold Fish*

      I haven’t really been in the mood for that kind of thing in the last two years but before that I’ve been roped into organizing most of the holiday fun in my office for the last decade. We did the stocking thing one year, it was mostly candy but not too bad. My suggestions for cheap fillers if you don’t want to do candy, look for the kids party section in the seasonal dept. They are usually filled with packs for seasonal pencils or cheap plastic games that can average out to less than $0.50 per person depending on what you choose. But don’t feel pressure to participate if you really don’t like it. I think it spoils the fun for everyone else when it’s obvious you are only participating out of obligation. If questioned, not in the budget this year is always a good excuse.

      Suggestion for “fun” without cost. Look into winter/seasonal trivia questions and post them. I’ve found a lot of people tend to have fun trying to guess the correct answer even if there is no prize.

    8. curiousLemur*

      A lot of people already have too much stuff to do this time of year. Why are some people so insistent that everyone take on more stuff? I don’t think most people will think of you as a Scrooge. I think a lot of them will think “I wish I had opted out too.”

      1. Chaordic One*

        You’re so right. Some poor misguided fools think it is a way to teambuild and don’t realize that for many people it’s just another burden for someone who already overworked and stressed out.

    9. JustaTech*

      This is why the White Elephant at my work is 1) completely optional and 2) has very clearly stated rules that are clearly communicated ahead of time (by me, because the one year I didn’t one person had a different understanding of what kind of White Elephant it was and people’s feelings got hurt).

      If I’m going to have to be on the social committee then by gum am I going to do my best that the people who love this stuff have a great time, and the people who hate this stuff don’t have to have anything to do with it. I will never let lunch be held hostage to “mandatory fun”. (Management speeches I can’t do anything about.)

    10. CyclingCommuter2412*

      Can you do $1 lotto scratch tickets tied with a ribbon to an orange?

      Gift fail story for your enjoyment (or to cringe to)

      My first year in public service, there was a secret Santa thing with a limit of $20. I bought a few interesting things, wrapped them beautifully and thought I’d found a great gift that someone would find useful and fun.

      Come to the event and as they’re doing the number drawing with the ritual “stealing” of gifts. Every gift opened is a bottle of wine. Every. Single. One. Mine was the only one that wasn’t and the look of disappointment on the guy’s face who chose it was really sad. Naturally, no one wanted to steal his gift. It was sad all around.

      No one told me that “a bottle of wine” was the only acceptable thing to bring…. it also reflected a bit sadly on the branch of public service for me.

    11. Leela*

      The owner of the company, who has been making really bad cuts over the last few years because he’s trying to sell the company and wants it to look more profitable than it is, forces us to listen to him recite a poem EVERY CHRISTMAS PARTY and it’s usually part of a thirty minute or longer speech we all have to sit there for and I just want to scream. It’s an arts institution so i don’t know if he’s trying to like…connect with the artsy types who work here, or if he fancies himself an artsy type and thinks this is the best way to engage us, but if you’re reading this: stop the poems and re-hire the people you laid off to save money, chopping up their jobs and distributing the duties all over the company without even telling people that they have new tasks (so you just get yelled at randomly some day because apparently months ago, work from a department you have no experience with – like you’re admin for a specific arts department who has suddenly obtained accounting or HR tasks because people were let go and there’s too much work for those departments – became yours and no one told you. Or you’ll get told that you have the new task, but receive no training, context, or a heads up that it’s actually a work item that fits together with other work items, that other people in the company now have, and you should probably coordinate with them)

    12. SpaceySteph*

      White elephants *can* be fun but can also be terrible. I usually don’t participate because I dont want to spend $X on something nobody wants to end up with different $X crap I also don’t want.

      They just did a survey on what activities we’d like at our holiday party and I left the whole thing blank (food and drink was a different question) because… no thanks. I like free food though.

    13. allathian*

      I’m not, but I’m also lucky enough to be able to sit all of them out without any repercussions. So that’s what I’m doing. Oh, I might go get some glögg after work with my teammates before Christmas, but that’s it.

    14. MacGillicuddy*

      Best gift exchange at a past job was a yankee swap with the rule “must be a regift”. Most stuff was ok, some items were ridiculous, but many were useful. Board games, desk toys, cookbooks, etc. Nobody spent anything!

  26. MisterMeeble*

    I’m in a technical management role and recently got a new job at “Small Company” as a “Teapot Inspector / Training Coach”. I was in that role for right at a month when “Behemoth Industries” bought Small Company. I’m now a “Sr. Teapot Inspector” at Behemoth Industries. The business unit is more or less independent (same teams, same products, etc.) and is known as “Small Company by Behemoth Industries”. It’s the same job, just a different employer.

    My question is how do I handle this on my resume? Can I list one job as “Small Company / Small Company by Behemoth Industries” giving my “Sr. Teapot Inspector” title, or should it be two different jobs? SHould I list both titles or one?

    I realize it’s probably not a big deal, but I also don’t want the appearance of being on a job for a month. My other jobs have typically lasted for anywhere from 3 to 6 years. I have no plans to change jobs, but do like to keep my resume current.

    1. LGC*

      Yeah, I think that’s appropriate and the best course. You might even be able to leave out the independent part since that was so short.

      1. MisterMeeble*

        Thank you! I will probably keep the independent name in there. They have a much better name in a relatively small space and getting hired by Small Company is a bigger deal than Behemoth Industries, although they’re both well regarded.

    2. ArtK*

      I think Alison’s advice in the past has been to list both for the same section of your resume:

      Teapot Inspector/Training Coach Small Company 1/2020-10/2021
      Sr. Teapot Inspector Small Company by Behemoth 10/2022-present
      * accomplishments & duties for the *role*

      1. RagingADHD*

        I’d do that if the original role lasted close to a year, or longer. For one month? I’d just roll it up into the current title.

    3. Your local password resetter*

      One month is so short I’d just consider it part of your current position/company.
      And if the smaller company has a better reputation, then definitely use the combined name to lean into that.

  27. Elle*

    Wednesday I interviewed for an internal promotion. The interview was three interviewers and myself, on all video over Teams. During the meeting, one of the interviewers got a call on his cell phone. Without saying anything, he muted himself, answered the call, talked for awhile on the phone, then hung up and was paying attention to the interview again. He was noticeably less engaged and asked fewer questions than the other two interviewers. This was like, wildly out of line, right? I wouldn’t do this in ANY video call, let alone an interview! And to say nothing and act like it was no big deal?? I doubt saying anything would be a good idea but dang…..

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I think you may be taking this too personally. This was an important interview for your; to him it was just one more thing on his to-do list for the day. The phone call may legitimately have been much more important to him than this item on his list. Let it go.

      1. Elle*

        I am letting it go, I’m not doing anything about it. So you don’t think that’s out of line at all? I would be disciplined for doing that in any video call, let alone something like an interview. In fact, I *was* disciplined once for answering a single text message in a large group training once a few years ago (previous job).

        1. Glomarization, Esq.*

          No, I don’t think it was wildly out of line. I think something must have come up for him, and if it weren’t important he would have let it go to voicemail. I think a group training is not the same scenario.

          1. Elle*

            Absolutely! A group training is far less important that a small video interview, and a text is far less disruptive than a call. Which is why I’m struggling to understand how it would be a corporate norm to put marks on people’s permanent record for answering one text in a large group but totally acceptable to take a call in the middle of an interview.

            1. Hlao-roo*

              To me, getting disciplined for answering a text during a training seems very strict (at my company, someone might say “hey, put your phone away” but no one would get a mark on their record). And again to me, an interviewer “ducking out” of an interview to take a phone call for a few minutes seems a little rude but not wildly out of line.

              It does seem strange to me that a text during a training would be treated much more harshly than a phone call during and interview (especially at the same company). Are you interviewing with a different department that is less strict? Did you run afoul of someone on a no-phones-for-personal-reasons mission during your training session? Does your company hold managers to different standards than individual contributors? Those are the only explanations I can think of.

        3. curiousLemur*

          It sounds out of line to me, but then again, I don’t know what issue he was dealing with. At a place I worked, the manager’s wife had a health crisis, and for a while after she was out of the hospital, he always had his phone with him in meetings and would sometimes glance at it. If he had taken a call during a meeting, I’d have assumed that either she might be having a recurrence of the problem or maybe that someone high in the company hierarchy called about something urgent. Then again, he’s a good guy, and he normally wouldn’t take a call during a meeting unless it was an important call.

      2. Elle*

        And to be clear, I have myself done many hiring interviews. I’m not someone new to the corporate work world.

    2. GRA*

      How did the other interviewers react to him taking the call? Yes, it’s super rude, and I’d question if no one else thought it was.

      1. Elle*

        No one said anything in the moment or after. I didn’t get a good look at anyone’s face or anything unfortunately. I was pretty focused on the answer I was giving to the question. It was a tough interview and while it didn’t go poorly, it was not a 10/10 for me so I was pretty stressed finding good answers to give.

    3. vma*

      It’s not ideal, but there may have been no other options. Maybe the call was from their doctor or about their kids. That’s what I would probably have done. It’s annoying, but I’m not sure what you gain by still being offended by it.

    4. anonymous73*

      Being that he was one of three in the interview, I wouldn’t say it’s as big of a deal if he was the only one besides you on the call. But it’s still rude. Things do come up, and it’s quite possible that this call was urgent. It’s also quite possible that he’s an ass.

      I had an interview once with one person, who took me into his office (not a conference room) and proceeded to check email, take phone calls and do other things while he was interviewing. I honestly regret not stopping mid-interview and walking out since he clearly had better things to do.

    5. Xenia*

      I’d say it comes off as rude, but not wildly inappropriate. There’s a good possibility that it was an emergency, either familial or work. In his shoes I’d probably have apologized (Didn’t mean to disrupt the interview, sorry, important call) because it did disrupt the interview, but that’s about it.

    6. Kathenus*

      I think it’s unfortunate timing but not necessarily rude. As others have mentioned he likely wouldn’t have taken a call if it wasn’t important or time sensitive. To me it might have been nice if he had turned off video and maybe typed – sorry have to take this important call – in the chat. But things happen, I had to do this in a meeting yesterday due to an important call. If he was less engaged after I might interpret that as something significant or bad happened that was weighing on him. I’d presume positive intent unless you have evidence to the contrary. Unfortunate, but not rude, to me.

    7. RagingADHD*

      It’s rude, but to me it falls into the “he should have handled this better” sense, not in the “wildly inappropriate” sense. To me, wildly inappropriate would be if he didn’t mute himself, or if he interrupted the interview to start talking about this phone call, etc.

      If he’d said, “excuse me,” when taking the call and “I’m sorry, please go on, I’ll just be a minute,” it wouldn’t even be rude, just unfortunate.

      Is there a double standard between what’s acceptable for a hiring manager in an interview and what’s acceptable for the candidate? Yes. Is there a double standard between what’s acceptable for an interviewer and what’s acceptable for a trainee? Yes.

      Is that double standard a personal slight against you? No.
      Is it worth getting bothered about? Also no.

      Would saying something tank your chances at the promotion? Quite possibly yes.

    8. Clarabow*

      To me, very rude and massively out of line. None of the interviewers where I work (including me) would ever do this. There are plenty of times in life when you can’t answer a phone and an interview is one of them. If someone has a personal reason why they might need to take emergency calls, then we wouldn’t have them on an interview panel, unless absolutely necessary. And even then I’d expect them to warn candidates at the beginning that they might need to step away and not to worry about it, but just keep going as other panel members are there etc.
      I think it was probably best that he didn’t say anything when he picked up the phone, as that might’ve been more disruptive. But he could’ve apologised when he was finished and there was an appropriate point to do so.
      Yes, agree no point in saying anything. But well done in keeping going in the interview. Hope it didn’t put you off too much and fingers crossed you get the promotion!

  28. Probably too sensitive*

    Whoo boy.

    So my boss accidentally replied all on an email yesterday…venting about me. For obvious reasons I was extremely hurt (thanks to my friends and family for listening to me), and I didn’t know how to respond.

    This morning I replied saying that I didn’t think I was supposed to see that, but I was open to talking about any concerns next week (when my boss was going to be on site next). She ended up coming over this morning and profusely apologized to me.

    Here’s the question: so how do I move on from this? I was upset enough yesterday that I was considering handing in my resignation without another job lined up, and even now I’m still pretty rattled. We had fairly open communication before but now I’m unsure, to say the least. Apologies for being broad, but I have no idea what to do (other than fix my resume up and read AAM’s cover letters archive).

    1. Rayray*

      I’m so sorry that happened to you. First off, I do commend you for waiting to reply until after you had time to take a breath and process the situation. Sometimes we react in the heat of the moment and things can go even worse.

      If it has you rattled enough, do work on the resume and cover letters and start your job hunt. In the mean time, really try to work with your boss to resolve things. She owes you to be open with you now so hopefully she will be reasonable. Just make sure to ask questions and try to pinpoint what’s going wrong. I wish you the best in this and hopefully things work out!

      1. Rayray*

        Another thing too, do you think it’s worth looping in HR? Not necessarily to get even, but this honestly is an unacceptable mistake.

    2. Coenobita*

      I don’t have any great advice, but I think what you did so far (politely pointing out the error and offering to talk about her concerns) was PERFECT. Well done! I definitely wouldn’t take any other action yet.

      1. Coenobita*

        Sorry, to clarify – obviously you should work on polishing your resume etc. if you want to, but I wouldn’t take any additional actions with your boss at this point. It’s really on her to work to resolve this.

    3. Sunflower*

      Woof. I would be feeling the same way. Do you feel the conversation was productive and did she address any of the concerns she was ranting about? Was the context of the rant a surprise to you? (ie was she complaining about work related issues that she had never raised with you). And did the rant seem like serious stuff (X isn’t hitting milestones) or minor items (like X is getting on my nerves, X talks too much)

      I think simply apologizing isn’t going to be enough. If there was real work related issues in there then I probably wouldn’t feel good until we had a conversation addressing these things, the level of importance and an actionable improvement plan. I think this is personally up to you and your feelings but I wouldn’t blame you if you don’t feel you can come back from this and think looking for a new job might be best for your mental health regardless of what your boss says or does.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Yes, this. The topic of the rant matters a lot to me. If it was personal stuff like she says you’re annoying, I’d be looking to leave ASAP no matter what she says. If it’s that you’re late on something, which you knew but didn’t realize is such a big deal, that’s salvageable to me.

      2. "Sensitive" OP*

        In the interest of answering questions (since I’d been reading all day) since they’re pretty similar: I…honestly don’t know how to feel! Like, if I were to be honest, right now I feel like the conversation was a bunch of noise meant to appease me, but I’m pretty sure I’d be mad at them regardless of what they said.

        It wasn’t really a rant! It was a couple of throwaway sentences joking (“joking”) about how I’d probably tell one of my direct reports that management wouldn’t help them, and that I misunderstood management’s intentions a lot. For further context…I do have to admit, I was guilty of that in the past, but it’s something I’ve studiously avoided for years now. (And yeah, once you get a reputation, it never goes away.) So part of why I was so devastated at first was because…like, I was already trying to come back from bad behavior on my end, and it felt like I hadn’t made any progress.

        But anyway, the conversation with my boss and our site manager touched on three things:
        – that they were sorry that I saw their venting about me, and that what happened was unprofessional
        – explaining their perspective and why they’re so stern with employees (I tend to get cast as “the nice guy” for good reason – I start off much less stern with a lot of employees)
        – reiterating that they really do appreciate my work and that I am doing good work (to be fair, I got a good performance review this year – 4.0/5 on average, where 5 is the highest score)

        And to be fair to everyone involved, everyone (myself and my boss included) is under a fair amount of stress at work right now to begin with. So people might act a bit ugly. But it’s like…again, I don’t know if I can come back from this. I don’t know if I’d want to, even if it’s possible.

    4. Camellia*

      Well, you are not too sensitive, when you’ve learned that your boss and however many people were on the reply-all email are talking bad about you, behind your back. I’m not sure I could recover from this. I would probably stick with being civil while I updated my resume and got on with a job search. I’m sorry this happened to you; it’s hard when you have one idea of people’s perception of you only to find out that you were totally wrong.

    5. irene adler*

      This sentence: “I replied saying that I didn’t think I was supposed to see that, but I was open to talking about any concerns next week” was very professional of you. You handled this well. Nice work!

      I understand being hurt by this. And wanting to leave because of it. But if you like your job (independent of the email) maybe turn this into a “lemons into lemonade” situation. Some situations call for developing a strategy that does not include leaving. But that’s something you need to determine for yourself.

      I’m not clear on the nature of the venting by your boss. I assume it is solely regarding things on the job. If so, maybe take things in hand and show your boss a thing or two. By that I mean, when you sit down with your boss, explain that, from now on, she should endeavor to promptly bring up any issues she has with you. And she needs to give you the opportunity to remedy said issue(s). Point out that, doing this promptly, will prevent small issues from becoming major problems (i.e. major problems that might drive her to venting about them).

      (this last paragraph assumes boss is a completely reasonable person. If not, cut bait.)

    6. Not a Name Today*

      It’s possible that your manager is so mortified and so worried that you’ll go to HR, that they will bend over backwards to make things right. I’d see how things progress over the next month. This could be a massive learning experience for your manager.
      And as everyone else has mentioned, you handled this wonderfully. Stay classy!

    7. Alex*

      Oh wow, that is SUCH a blow to your confidence and self worth! I’m sorry that happened to you.

      I think my advice depends on whether or not you think her complaints were valid and things you can actually improve. It really sucks to have to find out your boss’s issues with you this way, and make sure you recognize that it is HER job to communicate any problems she has with your work to you, and this was not only a mistake of reply-all venting (which is a big mistake!), but a failure of her management of you. That said, it is an opportunity to be able to make improvements based on (excessively) candid feedback. If you are able to make changes based on what you read, that might make YOU feel better, in addition to possibly addressing concerns your boss has.

      If it isn’t something you can control or improve, or was something that was a personal attack or just plain mean…yeah, I think it might be best to try to move on from the job, because your boss has shown you who she is.

    8. CatCat*

      You handled this really well and are not “too sensitive.”

      If it were me, I don’t think my boss could recover from this and I would be looking to leave. You’ve got nothing to lose by job searching. You could even set a deadline for yourself in the future: “On X Date, I will resign.” I’ve done that before and it somehow takes a huge mental load off (even if I don’t end up resigning when X Date comes). In the interim, maybe your boss will be able to redeem herself. Who knows. See how it goes, but be looking for something else.

    9. Former Usher*

      I’m really impressed with the way you handled this so far. As awful as it feels, this could work to your advantage if your manager feels compelled to be extra nice to you.

      I faced a related situation where my manager printed an email to give me some information about a project. The email chain included some less-than-complementary content about me. My first response was to punch a cabinet by my desk. That hurt. Don’t do that.

    10. The New Wanderer*

      That’s really unfortunate and whether or how to recover might depend on the content of the vent and who she might have meant to see it. There’s no excuse for her to be communicating like that to anyone, but how much it indicates about her lack of judgment might be tempered with what she intended.

      Content: was it personal or professional? If personal, your boss just plain sucks (regardless of who she was communicating with other than she clearly meant to respond to at least one person on the distro list!) because that’s never, ever okay. Continuing to report to someone who does that, knowing it was almost certainly not the first time, and knowing she vents to at least one person that you also interact with, would be hard unless the manager makes an ongoing effort to rebuild trust with you (and the team!). That may not be recoverable.

      If professional, your boss sucks more if she meant to vent to another of her direct reports, because that’s not even remotely helpful and it’s probably at least as corrosive as a personal attack. She *maybe* sucks less if venting to a peer and looking for advice from the peer on what to do, though it’s obviously a terrible way to handle things. This would be the most recoverable scenario, though it would still involve a lot of work on your manager’s part to change how she manages people.

      Ultimately, she apologized to YOU, which is something, but did she apologize to the whole group for her shockingly unprofessional behavior? What else is she going to do about repairing what she said about you to a wide audience?

    11. Probably too sensitive? (okay maybe not)*

      Thanks everyone. I will admit that my group chats would disagree that my initial reaction was professional. (It included clown emoji and profanity.)

      So to go into detail: I’m a floor supervisor, we have a de facto site manager (who I don’t report to but is senior to me), and then my boss. I was talking with the site manager by themselves about something I’d noticed with an employee (where they seemed overly defensive), we disagreed about our perspective…and then I saw a reply from my boss on that email chain. It was a throwaway comment, but basically said I kept misunderstanding them and that I was going to tell this employee the rest of management wouldn’t help them.

      Long story short: this is not an unfounded observation. I have a reputation for being the “nice guy,” and sometimes overly nice. But I’ve stopped openly disagreeing with management and haven’t for years.

      Will provide more detail later-need to get back to work.

    12. RagingADHD*

      I would deal with this on two fronts simultaneously until you can see how it’s going to shake out.

      1) Immediately start job hunting and sending out resumes. You may not wind up pursuing anything for real, but it’s a very empowering thing to do, because it reminds you that you have options.

      2) Follow up on the idea of having a meeting with your boss to talk about her concerns. Be open and listen to whatever she has to say and take it on board, but also re-iterate that if there’s a problem with your performance she needs to speak with you about it directly. And if the past problem hasn’t occurred in years, ask if she’s perceiving your recent performance differently than you are, or if she’s hearing concerning things from other people. Ask about how the other people on the email chain perceived it, and that you are now concerned about their confidence in you and your ability to work constructively with them (if that’s a concern for you – it sure would be for me.)

      If your boss was bagging on you for problems you had years ago that have been resolved, that’s really crappy, and she needs to own it beyond a quick “Sorry.” She was undermining your reputation with your coworkers, and she needs to do something to help build it back up.

  29. ShipwreckedSarah*

    I got some great help from this thread for my first ever video interviews a couple weeks ago! Sadly I was turned down for the job, had a couple more rejections in the meantime, and a close relative passed away so I’m all kinds of down in the dumps. Still: I need to keep on trucking and have sent out 15 tailored applications in the past week and a half. Any advice for not drowning in the uncertainty and sadness? This job search sucks!

    1. emkaaaay*

      First, I am so sorry about your loss.

      Job searches really do suck. For me, the most helpful thing was to tie my emotions as much as possible to the part of the process I could control: the process of creating and sending out strong materials. I created an elaborate tracker where I got to mark boxes green when I 1) found a job I was excited to apply to, 2) tailored my resume for that job, 3) drafted a cover letter, 4) revised the cover letter, and 5, sent it in. At #5, the whole row went green and I sent a self-congratulatory text to my friend. And every time I applied to ten jobs, I did something to celebrate. (Nothing was EVER red in the tracker. Rejected? I noted it, but the row was still green because I had successfully sent it in. Missed a deadline to submit? Just deleted the row lol. Good vibes only.) When I got to the interview stage, there were additional columns of boxes for each stage of my prep. This would not be the best system for everyone, but since my biggest hurdle was anxiety and avoidance of the process, it helped me a lot.

      Within this view, you have had an INCREDIBLY successful week and a half. Fifteen green rows! Fifteen green boxes! Omg congratulations to you.

      Hang in there, and good luck.

    2. NervousNellie*

      How people respond to you isn’t always a reflection of you so much as it is reflection on them. I find it helpful to remember this when I feel like the world is full of “no!”

    3. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      Wow…15 tailored applications…I’m impressed! I’m sure it’s hard to see when you’re in the middle of rejections and sad news with your family, but from over here, it looks like you are doing an amazing job search, and I hope something pops soon. Good luck!

  30. drowning!!!*

    I forgot to ask the recruiter and my now manager why the turnover rate at our company is so high, specifically for my entry-level position. Is there a way I can reasonably ask this now as I am currently in the role and have a ridiculous workload? How can I raise this as an issue or show my concern for the expectations I am given? I don’t feel like my voice will be heard and I am nervous to discuss, as I am in an industry that is extremely fast-paced and am obviously still just an entry-level employee. I do love the industry I’m in and the work I do, but find the expectations unreasonable.

    1. Elle*

      It sounds like you already know whyt he turnover was so high, now that you’re here. If you can sit down with your manager and have a chat about the workload feeling unreasonable you can certainly loop in the high turnover in the conversation (delicately). Not in your opening statement, but at some point, “It seems probably that this level of workload contributed to burnout in past employees as well.”

    2. Echo*

      Would knowing why the turnover is so high change your feelings here?

      What about asking your manager a specific question or making a suggestion? Like:
      “I’m finding it’s taking me 40 hours a week just to complete the llama reports, and I don’t have any time for the alpaca charts. Is this typical or are there shortcuts to make the llama reports go quicker?”
      or “I won’t be able to get both the llama reports and alpaca charts done this week. Can we adjust the deadline for the alpaca charts, or would you prefer I deprioritized some of the llama report requests so that I can get to them?”
      or “I’m finding that it’s taking a long time to get approvals from Jane, Brian, and Loren on the alpaca charts, especially because I often receive conflicting edits from the three of them. Is there a way to streamline that process?”
      or “I’m realizing that I spend about 20 hours/week just scheduling appointments with each alpaca groomer, and it’s not leaving me a lot of time to actually format and send out the charts. Is there any way I can get central support for scheduling?”

      And if your manager says no, this is all typical and you should be expecting to work 60 hours a week to get it all done, then it’s time to seriously consider whether this is an industry you want to be in long-term.

      That said, do you ever talk to peers about this? Because your peers may also have better advice.

    3. anonymous73*

      You seem to have answered your own question. Document what you do on a daily basis and how long it takes you to complete each item. Since you’re new and entry-level there’s probably a learning curve, but sometimes seeing something on paper puts things into perspective for management. I’m sure they’re well aware of why the turnover is high and this may not help the situation, but you never know unless you try. If it does nothing, you may need to chalk it up as a learning experience and look elsewhere.

    4. Cheezmouser*

      Are there other entry-level employees who have been successful in the job and who you can build a relationship with? They might be able to clue you in to shortcuts, tips and tricks, timesavers, etc. If nothing else, building relationships with more experienced entry-level colleagues can help you feel less isolated and more supported.

      (Caveat: this applies only if they are positive role models. Snarky/gossipy/complaining cliques will spread discontent. Good managers will notice this, and you do not want to be associated with that group.)

  31. Justin*

    It continues to be Not That Bad in the office, with my increased awareness of how my ADHD affects me (particularly background noise and being snuck up on).

    As we possibly go back more often later in the winter, going to talk to my dr and HR to get an accommodation to work from home for part of the afternoon each day, because with more people around there will be more crosstalk and I can just only focus for so long with more of that going on. I should be able to get something, I don’t think my boss cares as much about how long we’re at our desks, and I don’t actually mind going on (I’ve gotten used to the masks and it’s mandated vax, etc).

    As for other stuff, there’s a reason, despite being about to graduate, that I’m not fully on the academic market. What tokenizing trash (remember, I’m both Black and officially have a disability, and I write about these things) these search processes are!

  32. Anonymous Koala*

    In the spirit of Wednesday’s post about the overreacting grand boss and the holiday party, what are your favorite anecdotes about faux pas/ missteps perpetuated by those who are new to the working world?

    Mine is how I, as a new grad, showed up an hour late to the big boss’s house for a holiday party because I thought that, like in college, only overeager uncool people showed up on time. By the time I got there the rest of the party was half way through dinner. Big boss was Not Impressed.

    1. RagingADHD*

      As a relatively new executive assistant, I wasn’t familiar with corporate disaster recovery plans and how they worked. I actually don’t know if they were a common thing at the time, before smartphones and even before texting was ubiquitous. We were presented with this plan as a brand-new thing from some consultant, an initiative the CEO was championing. Basically it consisted of a calling tree. Each employee would get a call to notify them if something happened at the building, or see if they were okay, and then that employee was supposed to call the next person, or if they couldn’t reach them, call the next person after that and then report back up the line that someone was unreachable. This was pre-9/11, so I couldn’t imagine why it was necessary.

      The CEO decided to initiate a surprise test of this plan at some point well after business hours on a weeknight. I got a call around 10pm and was annoyed. I then had to call my assigned person, who was a widow near retirement age and lived alone. She had a panic attack because she thought a call at that hour must be about a family member being ill or dying.

      The next morning I sent a sharply worded email about what a terrible thing this was to do, TO THE CEO. Then I got a call from his EA that I was wanted in the C-Suite. The whole way there, during the calling-on-the-carpet, and all the way back to my desk I felt like Mr Banks doing the walk of shame in Mary Poppins (but without the epiphany at the end). I really don’t know why I wasn’t fired, I can only assume my boss stuck up for me and my groveling was satisfactory.

    2. Urban teacher*

      I got a job as a researcher/ jr private investigator and had to go out of town to get court documents. I don’t know a flashing light on an hotel phone meant messages. So I missed a call from an investigator to get another case. Now I would tell my boss but then I just froze and got

    3. Green Goose*

      My first real job required me to work every other Saturday and it only took a few months before I felt bitter about it. I was living in a new, fun, international city and working six days a week and I just wanted to have fun with my friends. My work usually started at 7am but it started at 10am on Saturdays so one Friday I decided to go out even though I had work the next day to “show ’em”. Stayed out way too late and drank way too much.
      I was so hungover that I literally went to work in the same clothes I had worn the night before and I’m sure I reeked of booze and looked horrible. I remember literally fighting to keep my eyes open at one point with a client. My little “rebellion” only harmed myself and I never did it again.

  33. Brownie*

    When applying for an IT job which states that work experience can make up for a non-IT degree, is it usual for the ratio to be 8 years of experience in that exact job (not 8yrs general IT) to a 4 year generalized IT or CS degree?

    This seems very off to me, especially for job ads for vendor-specific hardware and software products. I asked a few of my older friends/coworkers and they’re saying it’s normal that someone with a 4 year degree would have to work an extra 8 years on the job to match the skill level of someone just out of college with no work experience. Which, massive side-eye from me as that doesn’t seem to make sense to me as most college IT/CS degrees don’t seem to touch vendor specific training for more than a few weeks total over the 4 years, nowhere near enough to be worth that much on the job experience. Am I off base in thinking 8:4 is an absurd ratio in this situation (and possibly a giant red flag regarding promotion/raise prospects long-term)?

    1. Coenobita*

      I’m not in IT, but I’ve always seen a 1:1 ratio! So four years of experience is equivalent to a bachelor’s degree, bachelor’s degree plus two (or maybe three) years of experience equals a master’s degree, etc. A 2:1 ratio seems way over the top to me.

    2. Not a Name Today*

      That is an absurd ratio, especially in IT where you may learn faster in the field than in a classroom. I’d take 4 years solid experience over a 4 year degree any day of the week!

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I haven’t usually seen a ratio specified in the job description itself. But that seems definitely off. If you have 8 years of practical IT experience (unless you’re terrible at learning things), your experience is worth way more than just a 4-year theoretical degree alone.

      Honestly, I kind of hate the “degree or equivalent experience” thing, and I have degrees!

    4. Coder von Frankenstein*

      I can’t speak to what the norms are among IT managers, not being one.

      But speaking as a working developer without a CS degree (though I did take some CS classes), that is total garbage. For most jobs, if you gave me a choice between a CS grad fresh out of college and somebody who’d been doing the actual work and performing well for 4 years, I’d take the second one in a heartbeat.

      It isn’t that CS classes are worthless to a working dev–the concepts I learned in those CS classes do come in handy now and then. But they are far less important than the skills you learn on the job.

      1. talos*

        Hard agree, as someone with a BS and an MS in CS–those degrees aren’t useless, precisely, but I’d be a better hire if I had 5 years of experience instead of those 2 degrees (particularly as I don’t do particularly theory-heavy work in e.g. algorithms or distributed systems).

    5. anonymous73*

      This seems backwards to me. There’s only so much you can learn in a classroom when it comes to IT – real world experience would tach you so much more.

    6. who me?*

      Have a friend who did a 3 year degree* (typical length for a bachelor’s degree in their country) and had to add 2 years of industry experience to submit for a work visa’s bachelor degree requirement since a bachelor’s is typically a 4 year program in the US. So according to the US government/immigration, the experience to school ratio is 2:1.

      *A 4 year version exists but was considered “extra” and not required for jobs that wanted only a bachelor’s degree in their country.

    7. Your local password resetter*

      The inverse seems more accurate to me, where 1 year on the job is ~2 years in class (although they’re by no means interchangable).

  34. Potatoes gonna potate*

    Thanks everyone for advice on my posts in last weeks thread. I did email the manager of the dept back and he said he had no idea why I was getting $80/ but the set rate is $50/ and there’s no wiggle room. I tried to talk to my own manager (the one who brought me back) and that didn’t go too great. I signed the contract but I’m casting my net. In fact I already spoke to one person who was highly recommended. I will send my resume over to him soon but I wanted to ask a few things here –

    How do I list these things on Resume? may be easier if I just list the timeline.
    February 2020-currently—side work
    March 2020-laid off from long term W2 job
    April 2021-currently—my primary work, also as a contractor
    Also how would I word that these were all freelance/1099 work?

    Second, the person I spoke to said we can hop on a zoom call if I have more questions. I have a million questions lol.

    Some of them –
    Explain your process
    Training on software?
    Professional development?
    I only want to do easy work, and not be forced to do more complicated ones with no guidance or knowledge (or pay for hours I spend). (Ok I need wording help on this one lol).

    Suggestions on wording these appropriately? Anything else to ask?

    Appreciate any and all advice!

    1. The Original K.*

      I spent a number of years doing contract work (some w-2 through staffing agencies, some 1099) and it’s all on my resume under “consulting experience.” If it was w-2 work, I have the staffing agency name in parentheses after the title.

    2. FashionablyEvil*

      “Can you tell me more about the scope of the role? Is it consistently focused on X? Or does there tend to be more variability?”
      “Would I report to one person or would there be other people who direct/supervise my work?”
      “How would you describe the organizational culture?”
      “What is your approach to training and development for this role?”

    3. RagingADHD*

      I’d list
      Freelance [Job Description] February 2020-Current. Clients include:
      Company Name: April 2021-Current
      Other Client Name (or if there are multiple short-term clients, a few of the most recognizeable or the
      largest companies).

      [W-2 Job Title], Company Name, Start Date – March 2020.
      Duties included:

      And then if there were other prior jobs, doing them newest to oldest in the same format as the W-2 job.

  35. Non profit pro*

    I left my job earlier this year after basically being pushed out. All of my ideas were shot down, I would work for months on a big project only to have it cancelled or postponed at the last minute and my boss literally met one on one with me 5 times from March 2020 until my resignation in Spring 2021.
    I was talking to a friend recently abiut things that happened during my last year and they thought that I had a case for a hostile work environment. I have a chronic illness and am immunocompromised. When the pandemic happened, I was the first to go remote and at various points during our WFH my coworkers would say things about how they wanted to do in person things as a team, but couldn’t because of me. This included the suggestion that our holiday party be in person and I could just sit out on the porch and watch things through a glass door. My boss saw these things and just laughed along with it. This sort of thing happened multiple times.

    Is my friend right, is this something worth looking into?

    1. Minimal Pear*

      Not a lawyer, but am chronically ill and have had to do a fair bit of research on this for similar reasons. I think your friend is right.

    2. irene adler*

      “the suggestion that our holiday party be in person and I could just sit out on the porch and watch things through a glass door.”
      Ah, the very essence of holiday spirit.

      It is worth gathering evidence/documentation on each incident. And each time the boss failed to end the comments regarding how you were preventing the group from doing what they wished to do.

      Thing is: are you, vis-a-vis your health situation, a protected class?
      You might test the waters by finding an employment lawyer and bringing this situation to them. Often you can get a free 30 minute consultation from an attorney to discuss whether you have grounds to pursue legal action. Might get in touch with the local American Bar Association group in your area. Often they offer this free 30 minutes consultation.

      1. Non profit Pro*

        I have screenshots, mostly because I was so shocked at what was happening and had to send them to a friend to exclaim over.

        What determines whether or not I would be a protected class? I don’t qualify for SSI because I can work when appropriately medicated and with some flexibility.

        Also my entire org was forced back to in person work in April, despite no vaccine mandates and only a suggestion that masks be worn.

        1. irene adler*

          RE: protected class
          I would think the ADA would cover that.
          I found this on the gov’t ADA site:
          “To be protected by the ADA, one must have a disability, which is defined by the ADA as a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities, a person who has a history or record of such an impairment, or a person who is perceived by others as having such an impairment. The ADA does not specifically name all of the impairments that are covered.”

          Link to follow.

          2. pancakes*

            Hostile work environment is EEOC territory, not ADA. The ADA is one of the laws the EEOC enforces, but not the only one.

        2. Minimal Pear*

          If your chronic illness affects your life in a noticeable way (which you’ve just said it does, due to being immunocompromised) you’re disabled and protected.

    3. Scott*

      All this is assuming you are in the USA.
      If you believe you were subject to discrimination by your employer based on a disability, you can file a complaint with EEOC (see http://www.eeoc.gov, click the tab for employees/applicants and click on disability under the list of discrimination by type).
      You should know that the typical timeline requirement is that you must file the complaint within 180 days of when the discrimination occurred (also at eeoc.gov). There are exceptions though so I suggest looking there.

  36. Box of Kittens*

    Is it normal for an employee’s pay to be reduced to minimum wage if they do not give two weeks’ notice when they quit? (Is it even legal?) I got a new job, and found out that when one of our essential staff quits, if they quit without notice, any of their remaining pay from the previous pay period will be reduced from their current rate to minimum wage. I have never heard of anything like this before and am looking for a reality check. I’m still early in my career so unsure if this is normal or odd.

    2. Presea*

      IANAL etc, but at least in the US, I’m fairly certain reducing the pay rate of hours already worked is illegal. If you want to ask an expert and bring a legal eye onto your employer, go to your state department of labor

    3. Non profit Pro*

      How would that be legal? If they were hired at a certain rate, they can’t be suddenly have that rate changed for work they already did.

      1. Clisby*

        That’s my understanding (in the US). They can reduce your pay going forward, but not make it retroactive.

    4. Domino*

      I’ve never heard of that. It sounds like a terrible policy — if I worked there, I would just quit without notice to avoid the penalty.

      1. Domino*

        Oh wait, I misread. This is *if* they quit without notice. Well, I’ve still never heard of this. It sounds sketchy and unfair as hell.

    5. BlueWolf*

      I am not a lawyer, but I don’t think they can retroactively change someone’s pay for hours they already worked.

    6. pandq*

      I am pretty sure you can NOT retroactively reduce someone’s pay without their consent. Moving forward, sure, but not retroactively. Alison has answered questions about this in the past.

    8. *daha**

      I’ve seen something like this given in the terms of temp labor jobs. My understanding is that if this is a stated term of employment up front that you signed off on they can do it, because they are telling you that wages are X under these circumstances and Y under those circumstances.
      Other than that, my understanding is that employers can change pay rate going forward, but never retroactively. They can’t reduce your pay on hours already worked, even if they haven’t processed the payroll yet on those hours.

    9. Coder von Frankenstein*

      To be clear: You’re saying, if you walk off the job Tuesday, and the company still owes you for work you did on Monday, they retroactively cut your pay rate for the Monday work?

      If so, that’s highly abnormal and quite possibly illegal. Did you sign a document of some kind saying you agreed to this? If not, then it’s *definitely* illegal–you can’t retroactively cut someone’s pay without their consent.

    10. irene adler*

      Workers must be told – ahead of time- that the hours they work will be at a lower wage.
      Might check any employee manual to see if there’s something to this effect in there. In which case, workers have been told and it’s legal.
      It’s also sleezy. Shame on that employer!

    11. HBJ*

      I’ve heard of this, but it was in a contract signed ahead of time. I don’t see any problem with it unless you aren’t told before. Then it’s illegal.

      1. pancakes*

        This isn’t how legality works in the US, where most employees aren’t under a contract. Telling someone in advance that you plan to do something illegal (retroactively reduce their pay, for example) doesn’t magically make it legal.

    12. Magc*

      My current employer had a similar policy in the employee handbook when I started (2015): if you quit without two weeks’ notice, your last paycheck would be at minimum wage. Since at the time we were only paid once a month, it would mean you could get up to a month’s salary docked, depending on what day of the month you left.

      After all the pandemic-related salary reduction questions and stories, I know now that even if it was in the handbook, it was most likely illegal. However, when the current HR director started, that was one of the very first things she changed. IIRC, it was because she knew it wasn’t legal and she wasn’t going to have that policy while she was running HR.

  37. Scoffrio*

    Does anyone have any advice on how to ask if a job can be permanently remote? The job posting said city X or city Y. City X is where headquarters are and where I live. City Y is where the hiring manager is located – in non-COVID my understanding is he’s remote and comes into the office in X as needed. I’d like to set up the same situation for myself if I get offered the job. The only other person on the team is part time and based in City X. I’d like to be able to work from home (in the cities where my partner and family live) full weeks out of the month, but would be happy to return to city X to go in as needed.

    My thoughts were to wait for offer and then say something like this: The position was listed as in X or Y — would the organization consider keeping the position remote post COVID?

    Otherwise I’d say something to this effect: Post COVID what are your feelings on work from home? I have realized that I work well from home and would be interested in keeping it as a regular option and/or being able to work from home per my discretion.

    1. Reba*

      I would not wait till the offer stage! Use your last graph but early in the process. You could wrap it into questions about how WFH is going for them, what are the future plans, how it is working with manager in another city and so on. But be clear about your requirement! It won’t surprise them to hear this.

    2. anonymous73*

      Ask ASAP. It’s better to present your potential deal breakers up front so as not to waste anyone’s time. If you won’t accept the job without “XYZ” and company is unwilling to allow you to do “XYZ” then there’s no point in moving forward.

  38. RemotelyPossible*

    I am planning on visiting family on the other side of the US for Christmas. I only have the week before Christmas off and need to work the week between Christmas and New Year’s. However, plane tickets are ridiculously expensive for returning Sunday the 26th (Sundays are always expensive to fly on and it being the day after Christmas doesn’t help).

    I do work from home and so I have been thinking about just taking my work computer with me and working from my Mom’s house the week after Christmas and then fly home a week later when it is somewhat cheaper.

    Is there any problem with working from a different state for such a short time? I live and work in Utah and my mother lives in Virginia. My company has offices in a number of states but not in Virginia.

    2. CTT*

      It should not be a problem since the other state is not your residence/somewhere you are staying for the foreseeable future.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Yes — in my org, our remote work policy specifies that unless you are management, taking your work equipment out of state without prior approval from both your manager and IT is an “up to and including termination” issue.

        1. Coenobita*

          Wow, that’s so interesting! We only need permission if we’re going out of the country – my coworkers and I travel all over the U.S. for meetings (during non-pandemic times) and it’s also super normal for staff to work from some non-home/non-office location for a day or two in situations like the OP’s. Then again, our major offices are in NYC and DC so many of us cross state lines just as a part of our daily lives.

          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            I have no idea how strictly they actually view it in practice – we don’t travel for work, and I am a manager so if I take mine on vacation to check in on stuff nobody bats an eyelash, and before I was a manager I didn’t have anything going on that was important enough that I cared to check on it while I was on vacation :) so it may be one of those “it’s in the policy as a CYA but nobody actually cares” things, but CYA comes on multiple levels.

    4. Beth*

      Working remotely for a few days from a location in a different state, that isn’t your primary residence or work location, doesn’t usually count as formally doing work in that state.

      “In order to be a statutory resident — and to be taxed as a resident of a given state — you must have spent at least 183 days there during the year and you must maintain a permanent place of abode there.

      “The other test is one of domicile. Domicile is based on five factors, according to Mark Klein, tax attorney and partner at Hodgson Russ in New York. The factors are your true home base, the location of your business, the amount of time you spend in that state, the location of your cherished possessions and where your family resides.”

      I’ll put the source link in another comment.

      2. taxprof*

        You can be subject to taxation for working in a state even if you’re not a resident, and even if it’s not your primary work location. It’s highly unlikely to happen unless you voluntarily report the income, but technically it’s possible.

        However, if you’re not a state resident, you would only be subject to tax for the income you actually earn in the state.

    5. Purple Cat*

      IANAL but I really don’t think your company has to worry about nexus and tax implications for 4 days. In my org people work on vacation all the time (different issue) and the distance isn’t a problem. A coworker recently did a similar thing for a trip to Florida. FLights were too expensive, so they ended up working remotely for a week.

      Just mention it to your manager before you book any tickets, but it really shouldn’t be an issue.

    6. Camelid coordinator*

      I’d be worried about my family respecting my work time after a week of being totally available. If you don’t have video meetings perhaps you could go to the public library or somewhere else outside the house.

  39. Temporary Temp*

    I’m currently a temp for a large healthcare organization/hospital network, and for most of the last year I’ve been doing clerical work for their covid response. During this time I spent 6 months primarily deployed in a hospital about 1.5 hours away from me, and there I developed good rapport with two clinic managers and a director of operations. My organization allows temps that reach a certain threshold of hours worked (which I will hit in around a month) to apply for permanent jobs as an internal candidate, and the three higher-ups I mentioned earlier really want me to get one of those permanent jobs and have offered to act as references and write me letters of recommendation.

    I’ve never been in this position before and I am extremely grateful that these three higher-ups believe in me, but I have no idea how to best leverage their support! Does anyone have any Do’s and Dont’s for this situation I should abide by? So far my thoughts are to reach out to them via email when I start applying asking if they’re aware of any openings I might be a good fit for/can connect me with anyone that could help me with that (especially because I’m not really looking for permanent positions at their specific hospital due to the commute), and keeping them abreast if anyone’s letting me know they’re contacting my references so they’ll be prepared.

  40. Miss Bookworm*

    Has anyone ever run into a situation where their references weren’t accepted because they were too old? And I’m not talking a reference from 10+ years ago.

    I had a conversation with a friend this week that somehow got onto the topic of job references. She told me that as a hiring manager she doesn’t accept references from more than 3 years ago because “people can change a lot in three years and someone who was a bad employee four years ago could be a great one now”. I mean, sure, I can agree with that, but I can also think of multiple reasons why that would be bad for a candidate, especially for someone that has very limited references already.

    My job has a “no reference” policy. They’ll confirm prior employment, but that’s it. That is the same with many companies these days. I’ve also been with my company for nine years (hired straight out of college, with no prior work experience) and there has been little changeover. My manager—who trained me and who I worked closely with—left the company nearly two years ago; she is the only reference I would likely have and I don’t think one reference would ever be enough. I could never ask my boss because he’ll only stick with the company line. Sure, I could ask coworkers but they’re all the type to reveal to upper management that I’m job hunting (they’ve done it with others before). I really don’t want that to happen because my grandboss is definitely the type to attack me over it and mock me if I didn’t get the job.

    I do have other references from temp work I did at my company before officially getting hired—but my temp work was basically scanning, shredding, filing, and mailing—and an my department’s ex-admin who retired five years ago. There is no one else I could use as a reference without it getting around the office that I’m job searching.

    Do a lot of hiring managers have rules for how far back they’ll allow a reference? How do I navigate getting more current references when I can’t trust my coworkers not to spread it all around the office?

    1. WellRed*

      I’m curious if you asked your friend what she’d do in your case. Also does she require multiple references? How does that work? Does she only hire job hoppers?

    2. Ashley*

      Do you work with people outside your office in your role? If so a customer or a trusted vendor might be able to be a reference. At some point someone that is that hard core on know more then 3 years old is going to be tough for most people.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I have not run into that before and it’s a pretty ridiculous rule. I was at my previous job for well over three years when I started looking (a situation I expect many job seekers would be in). So, what would your friend do for me? Expect me to give references from my current job? Skip reference checks?

      It sounds like a poorly thought out rule.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Agreed, three years is a pretty arbitrary number with a weak justification by your friend the hiring manager. I guess HMs are allowed to come up with whatever rules they want (as long as they abide by HR/laws), but she’s likely missing out on great candidates if she doesn’t recognize the limitations of her rule.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Is it a “rule” or a general philosophy?

      Because if she’s saying she doesn’t put much stock in a bad reference from three or more years ago, that strikes me as a good thing. She’s right that people can improve and while it makes sense to take bad references under advisement it also make sense to acknowledge that people can improve drastically.

      Does she apply it in both directions? If she doesn’t take glowing references from more than 3 years ago either, that seems more problematic, because it’s pretty unusual for a stellar employee to drastically get worse in a short time frame.

      I haven’t heard about managers having specific rules or “cutoffs” about this, but generally speaking, the older a reference is, or the more job changes in between, the less weight it carries. That’s just common sense, for exactly the reason she stated – people change over time.

    5. AcademiaNut*

      For many people, that means their only possible reference is from their current job, which strikes me as a bad idea. The applicant has to choose between having no references, and potentially letting their employer know they are interviewing. Maybe they’ve got a former manager who has left for a new job within the past three years and could be contacted, but that’s not going to work for a lot of people.

  41. StormyNight*

    My work gave us “appreciation” gifts yesterday. I received a small bag of Doritos, a fun size pack of M&Ms, and a tiny notebook.

    I’m honestly really insulted. Am I right to feel this way? Is there someone I should complain to? Kind of feels like a smack in the face.

    They also ran out of the gifts 10 minutes into the giveaway so a lot of people got nothing.

    1. Generic Name*

      That’s a pretty cheap gift. Even inexpensive company swag would have read better, honestly. I don’t see that there’s any point to complaining to anyone. Maybe ask your coworkers how the gift landed with them so you know you aren’t alone in feeling under appreciated.

      1. Reba*

        I mean, not doing any gift at all would have been better than this! What a joke.

        I agree that briefly comparing notes with coworkers would help, but I doubt there is anything to be gained by complaining higher. Maybe you could mention it if you ever are asked for feedback on company events or perks or something. Ugh.

        1. StormyNight*

          Yeah I honestly would have preferred to get nothing! They gave out gifts at 12pm so I thought we were gonna get pizza or sandwiches for lunch, this was a huge let down.

    3. CatCat*

      Not worth complaining about, in my view. I would certainly not feel appreciated by this. I don’t know that I’d feel insulted, but I’d find it incredibly stupid. Sounds like a weird stunt by labeling it “here’s a gift because we appreciate you” instead of “there are free snacks in the breakroom.”

    4. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      How much do they actually appreciate you if they don’t even know how many goody bags to make?

    5. WellRed*

      If I were to say anything I think I’d express concern that the RAN oUT so others hit less than the nothing you got. Second choice. Leave my gift on the organizers desk. A rejection if you will.

    9. Librarian of SHIELD*

      This makes me feel better about my last job where the only gift staff ever got was permission to wear jeans on certain days.

      This sucks, StormyNight, I’m sorry your leadership was so thoughtless.

    10. Zona the Great*

      I’d probably leave them on the break room table or on a table in the very room where you were given the gifts. Leave them there forever if you must.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Or, I have dropped them in a garbage can at a convenience store on the way home. My thought was the sooner I was rid of it the sooner I’d forget about it.

    11. my $.02*

      You wouldn’t happen to be a nurse or work in a hospital, would you? This is every year with Nurse Appreciation day. I’m with you I would rather not have to say thank you and be appreciative for a crappy gift.

      1. Squidhead*

        This is why I take vacation the 2nd week in May every year!

        My org usually goes with some type of branded swag which is way better than OP just got, but I still don’t need more plastic junk.

    12. RagingADHD*

      If y’all are particularly stressed and overworked right now, or chronically underpaid, this is a bit of a smack in the face. If you’re well-paid and they do stuff like this frequently (or it’s a new thing they are planning to do with some frequency), it’s cheesy but strikes me as fine.

      Honestly, it sounds like a fresh-faced new hire in HR came in with Opinions about Morale, read a blog post somewhere, and got the greenlight to try stuff.

      1. StormyNight*

        I’m really underpaid. I do biomedical research in Colorado and make about $18/hour. I can make the same amount starting at In N Out.

    14. Dwight Schrute*

      Now you have me wondering if my boyfriend did enough for his employees for their appreciation gifts. He ordered each of them a custom “star bucks” style coffee cup with their name and company name on it, gift cards, and then candy. Was this too little a gift?

  42. Beth14*

    Hi all – I may or may not be facing a specific predicament, so I dug around in to see if this particular issue has been addressed and didn’t see anything, so figured I’d ask you all on the open thread.

    I work in university administration (low-level exempt at state minimum wage) and have been in the same role for 7 years. I’ve been trying to find something new for a while, and suspect I may receive an offer shortly. Due to the timing of the academic calendar and the needs of the potential new job, they would want/need me to start as soon as possible… and I would personally like to start as soon as possible. However, my current job closes down for about 2 weeks around the holidays, and in thinking about timing my resignation, I could likely be in a weird spot with notice falling at least partially over those two weeks. What should be a 2 week notice could end up being over a month if I needed to work my 2 final weeks in the office. For what it is worth, my current job is objectively awful about employee treatment and I feel no need to do them any kindnesses, but I don’t want to actively burn any bridges. All of this is hypothetical, of course, but if I happen to receive/finalize an offer a few days before we close down for break, is there any chance there is an appropriate way to avoid pushing my new start date out over a month in order to work out 2 full weeks notice?

    1. Ashley*

      Are you willing / able to work due some of the shut down (and be paid for it)? If notice is about leaving training manuals and wrapping up loose ends you might be able to do some of that for a week and then have a week after the holidays as a compromise.

    2. Cle*

      If you want them to start you soon, and you want to start soon, and the university has been paying you minimum wage for 7 years, I don’t know why you’d want to do that. To avoid burning bridges, I’d say to your current supervisor “I regret that I can’t stay here longer to wrap up X and Y, but I need to start at New Company soon. My financial situation is too tight making $X.” or something.
      I’m also in higher ed, and people leaving over break isn’t unheard of. I wouldn’t sweat it too much. In another semester or two, most people won’t remember, and anyone reasonable will understand that you can’t expect other organizations to adhere to the college’s calendar.

    3. Double A*

      My feeling is that if they have been paying you minimum wage for 7 years, you owe them minimum notice. Two weeks, whenever it fits with your job offer, is fine even if some of that time is the holiday. Just have whatever projects or documentation you need wrapped up before you go.

      I would not even mention the break, just give them your last day. The only thing that’s awkward is if you needed to give your notice during the closure… Then I’m not quite sure what I’d do.

  43. Minimal Pear*

    I’m dealing with some ongoing miscommunications/assumptions at my current job, because I’m the only hourly part-time person in a salaried and mostly full-time office. (This ALWAYS happens to me.) Right now, I’ve got one particularly annoying one. One woman (who I like a lot!) is going to be out next week because of the holiday and needs someone to cover for her for a duty that will run a few hours past the end of when I usually leave work. She emailed me a couple days ago asking if someone else had talked to me about covering for her, and I had no idea what she was talking about, and said so (politely). She then went on ahead to tell me that okay, I needed to train this week to be able to cover for her, etc. etc. and oh by the way it would be during these times. There was no real “spot” in the conversation to say “hey, wait, what?” The thing I would be covering for ends at 5 PM, so that totally makes sense with a full-time person’s schedule, but I leave work much earlier most days. And it’s in my calendar! She could look at my calendar to see when I was planning to leave work! And since I would normally be leaving work so much earlier than that, there’s no reason that I would, say, block off some of that time as OOO if I did have something going on. (On this specific day, I don’t, otherwise I would have immediately told her I was not available.)
    I’ve resigned myself to covering for her next week–it will actually sort of solve a different scheduling problem I was having, anyway–but I need to be able to tell her that it’s very unlikely I’ll be able to do so again. Both because I just don’t want to stay until 5 PM and because I am dealing with serious medical issues and need to save all of my extra time and energy for appointments, testing, etc. In fact, if one of the specialists I’m seeing called today and told me I had to come in during that time slot that I’m supposed to be covering for next week, I would do it, because my health problems are that serious and urgent.
    Mostly I just want to complain here–I feel fine about telling her when we meet today that there’s a good chance I can’t cover this in the future. However, if anyone has ideas for how to address this more generally when it keeps coming up, I would appreciate that. (I’ve found in multiple workplaces that there’s a big disconnect between hourly and salaried workers’ perceptions of things like scheduling, holidays, time off, “extra” activities, etc.)

    1. Mockingjay*

      When you meet with her, be very clear that as an hourly employee, your availability for coverage is strictly limited and this is a one-time deal.

      I am curious; did she not ask your boss first? It’s normal protocol to ask managers before “borrowing” staff. What happens if your hours go over 40? (You have to be paid regardless, but that affects budget.) Does your boss need to approve overtime in advance (should there be any)? Will the handover training disrupt your tasks? Do you need a different charge code for coverage hours? And so on.

      If you haven’t looped in your boss, suggest doing so to answer the above questions.

      1. Minimal Pear*

        1. I don’t have a boss/everyone is my boss; I’m the office admin. When she asked me if this other person had talked to me about doing this coverage, that person is someone who functions partially as my boss and tends to assign a lot of my work. Because of the way she phrased it, I’m almost positive she already told that person.
        2. They won’t go over 40, since I’m very part-time.
        3. Handover training made my schedule a little more busy than usual, but I currently have some downtime/am not working on any major projects. I absolutely have the time in my schedule for this, I’m just cranky about it.
        4. Already got the code from the woman who assigned me the work.

        1. Can Can Cannot*

          I’d suggest putting this down in an email to confirm the details. Send it to the woman who asked and the person who “functions partially as my boss.” Also CC anyone who might object to you putting in more than part-time hours next week.

          1. Minimal Pear*

            No one’s gonna object as far as I know because it’s going to just about even out with some time I’m gonna take off to see a doctor. This is actually going to work in my favor because we’re allowed to flex our schedules a fair bit and this means I won’t need to cover my appointment with my sick time, which is really low because of the serious health issues I mentioned. I’m definitely going to make a note when I do my timesheet though.
            I found out after posting this that the woman who gave me this work didn’t stop to ask because she was told by the sort-of-boss person that I could do this. Said person has made this mistake of forgetting I leave in the afternoon more than once, so I’m contemplating shooting her a very polite and friendly message about it on Monday

        2. Rosie*

          Maybe worth seeing about getting someone you can report to directly for the future? Our office admin is the only non-manager who reports directly to our director for exactly this reason.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      And since I would normally be leaving work so much earlier than that, there’s no reason that I would, say, block off some of that time as OOO if I did have something going on.

      If others use your calendar to plan these things, maybe it would be a good idea to go ahead and block of the times you aren’t in the office.

      Like Mockingjay said, does this affect your total hours? That would be a good way to bring it up. “By the way, I always leave at 2:00 on Mondays. Did you talk to Jane and get her approval for the extra hours, or do I need to do that?”

      1. Minimal Pear*

        Because I’m so part-time, I feel like it would look weird to have this tiny chunk in the middle of the day marked off as my working hours, surrounded by an oceean of time marked out as “out of office”. And I do want to preserve some flexibility; for example, if someone needed to meet with me a little earlier or later than I would normally be in because their schedule is packed.
        The scheduling thing I mentioned this solving is that I’m going to be out for a while next week for a medical appointment (not related to the ongoing issues) and I’m low on sick time (BECAUSE of the ongoing issues). Our schedules here are really flexible so adding in that giant chunk of time where I’ll be staying late makes up for the giant chunk of time where I’m at the doctor and will keep me from needing to use sick time. I feel a little iffy about doing it like that because I am terminally honest but the executive director has made it pretty clear that that level of flexbility is a-ok.
        (my reply to Mockingjay explains the boss situation)

    3. WellRed*

      So what did your manager say? Did they approve this? Did they approve the extra hours? How will it impact your regular duties and your health? Is there an upside to this for you? In other words, why have you resigned yourself to this?

      1. Minimal Pear*

        See above for more details (sorry I’m rushing to type this with one eye on my email so I don’t want to re-type everything) but I don’t exactly have a boss and the person she (I assume) talked to about having me do this is my boss in some regards. I will be more “engaged to wait” than anything else so if I have anything I need to work on for my regular duties during that time, I can do so. Upside mentioned above–this will balance out my work schedule for next week and keep me from needing to use sick time for an appointment. In terms of affecting my health, I will probably be cranky and tired in the evening of that day I have to stay late, but as long as I plan ahead and have dinner ready to go I’ll be fine.

    4. I need cheesecake*

      So she can’t actually look in your calendar for your schedule as it’s not clearly in there?

      You may not be being entirely reasonable here

      1. WellRed*

        It says she can look at the calendar and see when she leaves. It doesn’t sound like this woman is her boss and people can’t just assign hours to their part time coworkers.

        1. Minimal Pear*

          Yes, I have my schedule blocked out and my calendar event saying that I am at work (that everyone can see–we can all see each other’s calendars) ends quite a while before 5 PM. I really like this woman but I don’t think she was really thinking things through when she decided I would cover for her. If she’d asked I would happily say yes–like I said above, this fixes some schedule issues for me next week–but what’s bothering me is that she just told me I was doing it.
          Like I said above, everyone at this job is my boss and can assign me work. Additionally, it seems like she did talk to someone high up who often assigns me work, and that person said yes. That person was supposed to talk to me and didn’t, and my guess is that if she’d talked to me that would’ve been when I was asked instead of told.

      2. Minimal Pear*

        My calendar has the hours I am planning to work blocked out about a week in advance. Those chunks of time explicitly say that that’s when I’m working; I started doing this on the advice of one of the people who serves as my boss for some areas of my job specifically for situations like this. I do not have every single piece of time where I am NOT working blocked out as being OOO, because I assume people can read between the lines. (Obviously this coworker–who again, I really like and am not SUPER mad at, just a bit annoyed with–didn’t.) Everyone at the company knows that I am very very part-time and paid hourly (this company is very open about these things) but I think the problem is that people just don’t consider how that actually plays into the practicalities of my work.

    5. Minimal Pear*

      Also, if people were wondering, I wasn’t able to bring it up in the meeting but I just shot her a message letting her know for the future that I can’t be her automatic go-to for coverage if she needs it. (I did say that if she gives me a lot of advance warning I can probably make it work, because hey–it’s just sitting around doing whatever and keeping one eye on the computer while I get paid!) I’m mostly still just trying to figure out how to bring the “hey I’m part-time and hourly” thing up immediately when these sorts of things happen without seeming rude, lazy, or money-grubbing. (Although people have been pretty good so far–I had to talk to one higher-up about one thing where my concern was “hey am I gonna get paid for this thing?” and he immediately figured out that that was the problem. And the answer was yes, I am!)

    6. I'm Done*

      Maybe I’m not understanding this correctly but shouldn’t your boss be looped into this? Just because a colleague tells you that you need to cover for them doesn’t mean you need to go along with that. If you’re being paid hourly, you have to be paid for the extra time. Your boss more than likely will need to authorize that. If I were you, I would definitely clarify that first.

      1. Minimal Pear*

        Yeah, the boss situation is a little complicated–I’m the office admin so essentially, everyone is my boss. But also no one is my Official One And Only Boss. Everyone can assign me tasks, although other than this time, they’ve always asked if I have free time rather than just giving it to me. When I mentioned her saying “oh, did this person talk to you about covering for me?” in my original message, said person is someone who often assigns me work and functions like my boss for some of my tasks.
        Additionally, after I messaged her and she replied, it turns out that it was that person’s idea in the first place to have me do this. I’m not surprised, as that person has scheduled meetings with me in the past that have been way later than I usually work.

    7. Rusty Shackelford*

      Okay, so everyone can assign you *work* but that doesn’t mean everyone can assign you a *schedule*. So what, exactly, do you want to happen? I think having people *ask* if you can work beyond your normal hours is very reasonable, so that’s what I’d go for. “Jane, I’m happy to cover for you, but I’ve noticed you sometimes forget I only work until 2:00. In the future, if you need me here after 2:00, could you please check with me first? Sometimes I can stay but sometimes I can’t. Thanks!”

      (And, at least once, tell her you can’t even if you theoretically could, just to plant that in her brain.)

      1. Minimal Pear*

        Yep, I told the woman who gave me the work, and it turns out she assumed it was fine because one of the people who more commonly assigns me work told her it was. I’m totally going to build off of your script to message that person on Monday with a reminder because that’s not the first time they’ve done this–thank you!

    8. Koala dreams*

      Next time, you can say something like this: Oh, I’m not scheduled for work that time. You’ll need to ask someone else.
      Aim for a confused and friendly tone, as if it’s a simple misunderstanding. (Perhaps it is.) If you can’t say anything in the moment, you can get back later in the day or early next day and say I’m sorry, but I can’t do the thing after all, I’m not scheduled for work that time.

      If it’s a time that might work for you, you can say: I usually get off work at X, I’ll check if I can shift my hours for that day/week and get back to you. OR I’ll usually get off work at X, who should I talk to to get the extra hours approved?

      Then you get back when you know and say either that it’s possible or not possible.

      I’m sure you can improve my scripts, but hopefully they can be a starting point. In my experience, it’s often more important to say something, than to say it in the exact right way.

      1. Minimal Pear*

        Thank you, this is very helpful! It’s a little awkward because I’m the one setting my schedule, but keeping my hours consistent-ish so people know when they can get ahold of me is important. Managing my schedule is pretty much all on me, so I don’t really need to get extra hours approved unless I’m going wildly over my usual. (With the time off next week for medical stuff I think I’ll only end up working something like an hour or two more than I normally do, which I’ve done before when stuff has come up and it’s been fine.)

        1. Koala dreams*

          Since you already communicate your schedule with your calendar it should be fine to refer back to that. Sometimes it’s difficult to be the only person in a role. I hope it works out for you. Good luck!

  44. CW*

    Does anyone have a problem where you are always hurrying at work? Because I have that problem. Whenever I need to complete a task, I need to complete it NOW. And now means NOW. The word “later” becomes a curse word to me whenever I am working. Also, I hate doing things one by one and would always try to find shortcuts. In fact, doing things one by one is the bane of my existence at work because it would take longer than it has to.

    I know, it is a bad attitude to have, but I feel robbed of my time and doomed whenever I can’t finish anything ASAP. The things is, any slight delay at work will agitate me. To be clear, I am a big time Type A personality, which contributes to the problem. But it is not an excuse to constantly be hurrying at work. For those of you who have the same or a similar problem, what do you suggest?

    1. Ashley*

      A job where finishing now works really well. As a fellow Type A I totally understand.
      I have tried the at home method of practicing slowing down and not finishing everything now and trying to relax more.

      1. CW*

        I have started to do that as well.

        One major difference is that at work, it becomes a totally different monster because, well, it’s work. At home, there are no deadlines or bosses hovering over you. At home, you are free to do as you please.

        But I do agree that home is a good place to start.

    2. WellRed*

      Robbed of time and doomed seem a little much. You’re being paid to do these tasks, not rush through them so you are not robbed. Have you always been this anxious?

      1. CW*

        In my case, not robbed of money. It specifically relates to time. But I am afraid that if I don’t finish a task I will be seen as unreliable. And yes, I have always been this anxious. I am officially diagnosed with anxiety, which is a big part of the problem. But I have been seeking help for it, and am taking medication.

    3. Double A*

      My husband is this way, although he is very much not Type A; it’s a function of his ADHD. He’s either hyper focused or scattered without much in between.

      He works by himself in a family manufacturing firm so he just works like crazy for 4-6 hours a day then comes home. Obviously this is an idiosyncratic set up, but we’ve arranged our lives so they work with his brain.

      1. Minimal Pear*

        Yep, I was gonna say–this is an ADHD thing for me 100%. I have to do stuff right away if I want to be sure I’ll get it done.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Tap that drive?
      Look for ingenious ways to streamline your work.

      It sounds like the job does not challenge you enough- to me this sounds like a bored mind. This is a brain that will latch on to anything to pump through the day.
      There’s a difference between having a lot of work and having a challenging and interesting job. My guess is that overall you find your job boring… reeeally boring. You are not challenged by it at all.
      If this is the case, find/create new challenges.

  45. desk platypus*

    This is ultimately a very silly issue to have that’s more like a very boring C plot in a sitcom but that’s office dynamics for you.
    My very chatty social coworker made a little name sign for her cubicle. Clip art, simple text, printed on regular paper. I’ve never personally commented on it because the style was too cutesy for my own tastes but it suits hers. Then one day I find a name sign on my cubicle in very curly font with pictures of my favorite animal. My knee jerk reaction was, “Oh. Platypuses!” because I wasn’t about to say “it looks like a five year old slapped together this sign”, especially not when coworker immediately goes, “Oh I knew you’d love it, it’s so cute, isn’t it?”
    Anyway, now all of my department has been gifted with what I think are fairly juvenile looking cubicle signs with second rate clip art or just grainy pictures pulled from Google. Everyone else loves them. Because of my immediate awkward reaction it won’t be easy to walk back from. This coworker would definitely notice if I took it off and take offense.
    Would it be too much to order a fancier name plate for myself that isn’t just printer paper and then claim it was a Christmas gift I should honor by putting up instead? I’m definitely making this too complicated.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Actually I think that’s a great solution. It’s clearly bothering you! The only thing is it might cost some capital to do something like this that removes you from the “team” vibe if everyone else loves them so just realize you might come off a little grinch-ish.

      1. Beth*

        Maybe Desk Platypus could “accidentally” mess up the cheapo sign while swapping it out for the lovely sign that her very kind friend gives her for Christmas. What a shame that it means she can’t put it up somewhere else now that it’s badly ripped and splattered with hand sanitizer.

        1. Ashley*

          Yeah accidental damage to the existing sign would be helpful. Then you can follow-up with you mentioned it to a friend who got you the new studier one so you didn’t do it again.

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Yep that sign can have an accident. Interestingly, I have this happen in my own home with certain Christmas presents. Eh, what are you gonna do? Stuff happens.

    3. Someone*

      “Because of my immediate awkward reaction it won’t be easy to walk back from.”

      I guarantee she did not notice that you hate it.

    4. vma*

      If it’s just paper, can you remove it and claim it got damaged? Or just remove it and see if she even says anything.

      1. desk platypus*

        It accidentally fell behind a nearby box one day but my coworker actually noticed it the exact moment I did (we’re cube neighbors) and rushed to put it back only with stronger double sided tape this time.

    5. Koala dreams*

      Tell your co-worker that it was fun at first but now you are going to take it down. If you want to, put another decoration in its place. It could be a sign, a comic strip, a photo or a seasonal decoration. Or just put nothing. Perhaps you want a minimalist cubicle for the New Year’s?

    6. RagingADHD*

      Do you have to look at it? If not, I’d just pretend it isn’t there.

      If it were in my eye line and annoying me, I’d move it to another spot where people approaching can see it but I can’t.

      1. Nerdy*

        I’d do the opposite, and endeavor to whisk it from view. OP, could you treat it like a holiday decoration that needs to be taken down? Platypus season is over.

        I’m thinking that if you lose or damage it, Coworker will just replace it. Leave it on your desk for a day or two, then shove it in a drawer.

  46. Another Allison*

    Any advice for vetting a new city? My husband is currently interviewing with a company out of our state and the job would require us to move. It’s a big desicion for us to move, so I would love some advice.

    1. Nicki Name*

      What do you like/dislike about where you currently live?

      What are your absolute must-haves or dealbreakers in a living situation?

      What’s the COL in the new city compared to yours, and if it’s higher, would the increase in salary make it worthwhile?

    2. irene adler*

      If you have school-aged children, might check out the school districts. Find out which ones will meet your kids needs/interests.

    4. Ashley*

      I think the pandemic has all taught us how polarizing lots of America is so I would definitely be considering if I could live with the local politics.

      1. Purple Cat*

        +1 to this, but make sure you’re vetting the politics of your specific preferred city and not just the general area. I live in a very liberal state, but somehow my town has a very vocal conservative group.
        Check if there’s a facebook community page you can join.

    5. urguncle*

      Do you both have the ability to go there and spend a week or two in an Airbnb in a neighborhood around the job that is in your price range? It might help to spend some time not downtown, not eating out for every meal and seeing people not in tourism. How walkable is it? What’s traffic like? Can we imagine living our lives here?

      1. Hlao-roo*

        If you don’t have a week or two, you might still be able to get a lot out of a short trip with some good searching beforehand. Think about and list out your dealbreakers and some nice-to-haves. Could be sidewalks, schools, grocery stores, coffee shops, anything that’s important to you and your family. Then poke around on real estate sites (for housing prices) and on Google Maps (to get a feel for the neighborhoods and to look up parks/stores/churches/etc). Then on your trip, visit those places so you can ask the “can we imagine living our lives here?” question.

    6. WellRed*

      Ask: What’s important to you and does the new location have it ( museum, great schools, outdoor living)?

    7. Brownie*

      Weather is a huge thing. Is it someplace where you’ll potentially be dealing with hurricanes? Major snowstorms that shut down the city? Is it always going to be super humid or very dry and what would that do to your quality of life or health? Is it going to swing between -30 F and 110 F throughout the year and is that something you’d like or would you hate it?

      What about commute times, housing locations/cost/availability? Access to any specialized medical care you or your family might need regularly? If you’ve got family elsewhere in the country is there an easily accessible airport so you can travel without driving 4+ hours to get to the plane?

      A thing I don’t see talked about a lot is phobias/fear. If someone has a major fear of earthquakes then the west coast isn’t a good place for them to be, for example. Phobia of ticks/chiggers/insects? Stay away from places where those are a facet of daily life. Same with snakes, thunderstorms, tornadoes, and so on, if it’s something which freaks you out then evaluate the area for the potential to encounter those.

    8. Paris Geller*

      When I’ve done this before, I try to visit and structure at least one day as if I’m actually living there. I find a local grocery store, look at the parks/museums/other cultural interests that I would actually go to as a resident and not just a tourist, and try to drive the same route I would take at the time I’d go to work. I don’t have children, but if you do, at least drive by the local schools and see if you can creep on local FB pages. Find out what the most common complaint about the city is by residents and if you can live with it. Look at the weather over a period of time.

    10. Rosie*

      Think about the things you like to do and see what the equivalent looks like there. I agree with browsing the reddit page too, can get a lot of info about what complaints people have and if those are dealbreaker stuff or just normal existing in a society stuff. Definitely check out how expensive it is to go visit the people you want to see from there too.

    11. beach read*

      Maybe you can find a Facebook neighborhood page for the area you are looking at. I’d also be looking up crime stats too.

  47. Beka Cooper*

    Negotiation question. I work in a clerical position at a university making around 39k a year. Over the last two years, I have been studying web development off and on in my free time through a paid course, and I have a decent portfolio. I have also had my own website for years, and worked in a previous job at the same university maintaining my department’s WordPress site, but no programming, just updating info on pages, adding pages and blog posts and stuff. So I have some experience in jobs, and some experience from doing these courses.

    I recently applied to a web developer position at my same university in our library, and it looks like it’s kind of also a catch-all IT support position, which I could handle. The posting says the base salary is 58K, which is a big jump for me. I feel like I have a decent chance at getting an interview based on what I know from being on hiring committees (I think HR prefers to interview all internal candidates unless there’s a really good reason not to), and I know my other skills in my job will make me a strong candidate besides the fact that my web development skills are relatively new. On our internal job posting, it just lists the starting salary, but on an external job posting site, the range for this specific job was listed as 58K up to 90K.

    I know I should negotiate for more than just the base pay, but since I don’t have a lot of on-the-job experience with the main tech skills of the job, how much higher should I go? I already know I’d be happy with the base pay; it’s better than what I could get staying in my department, but I don’t want to leave money on the table if I could get more. My husband and I have high child care costs and he is a freelancer, so this would just be such a great chance to keep my health insurance but move to learning and developing my skills in web development and be getting paid to do it. Any thoughts?

    Also…I’m just hoping the current job market works in my favor. I’ve heard of more than a few job searches at our school lately that have failed because the top salary offered was too low for the candidates they interviewed.

    1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Maybe it makes sense to ask about how the range will be calculated … be prepared to lay out your skills in a rubric so they can decide which skills/experience they’re willing to pay for and which are just “nice to have”.

      And maybe consider asking to have a chance to recalculate after a year, as you demonstrate the skills you haven’t used at work yet.

    2. BRR*

      I know a lot of universities have huge ranges but tend to hire towards the bottom (bottom 25% of range). I think if you get an offer you can just ask if they can come up a little.

  48. Manders*

    I’ve got a question about quitting etiquette! I’m planning to quit my job at the beginning of next year, but the only other person in the marketing department will be out on maternity leave. I can give a longer notice than 2 weeks since I’m going into business for myself, but there will never be a good time to leave because so many people are going on maternity leave and this company is, frankly, pretty dysfunctional and my project deadlines are always moving around for reasons that are out of my control. Should I offer a longer notice, or stick with 2 weeks? Should I be clear about the reasons why I’m quitting and potentially burn a reference, or keep it vague and say I have some family-related reason I need to quit?

    1. cubone*

      I basically posted a similar (though longer winded, hah) question. I too am in an awkward quitting spot at a very dysfunctional org. I have not decided what to say (that’s my question!) but I have decided to give 5 weeks notice and hopefully frame it, as a way of hopefully coming across generous and helping them set up the next person for success (since they will definitely be stressed, it’s a bad time etc – though it’s always a bad time at bad workplaces).

      I will say that I know I don’t owe them that and neither do you, so it’s really how much you’re willing to tolerate. Also they could decide regardless they want you to leave earlier/immediately.

      1. Manders*

        Yeah, I don’t want to give them too much notice and risk it dragging out for months! I am serious about starting my own business off on the right foot in the new year, and I do have some family stuff that I need to attend to in early 2022 that it would be hard to take time off for if I were in a notice period.

        To be honest, I’m afraid of giving notice too early and losing the chance to use my accrued PTO. This business does that thing where you accrue PTO over the year and can’t roll it over, so everyone takes time off during the busiest season. This place has a lot of very silly problems like that! In an ideal world I could be up front about my plans, but I don’t think that would go over well with leadership. And I don’t think extra time would help set the next person up for success, because the pay is so bad they will not be able to hire someone else with my skillset (I was unemployed during the worst of the pandemic, the market was VERY different when I was hired).

        1. Can Can Cannot*

          Would you work for them as a contractor or through your new business? If you are willing, give two weeks and then offer them some consulting services if they need more of your time. Price your consulting services at 2x to 3x your current hourly rate. Will you be doing similar work in your new business?

          1. Manders*

            To be honest, they’re so cheap with pay rates that I don’t think they’d take me up on that offer and might be insulted by the idea of me asking for what I’m actually worth. I’ve seen their job postings for contract workers and frankly they are offering less than fast food in our area.

            1. Can Can Cannot*

              Then give them two weeks, and then move on to making more money with your new business. Good luck!

            2. Cheezmouser*

              You know your employer best, but I will say that one of my colleagues (also in marketing) left earlier this year to start her own business because she was undervalued and overworked. She offered to do contract work at more than 2x the hourly rate she was getting as an employee. Our manager balked, but our department is super short staffed and we had trouble filling her position, so a few months later they took her up on her offer. We are now one of her clients. She gets the rate she wants, and we get a contractor that already knows all our products, processes, clients, etc and needs no onboarding/training.

              Moral of the story: you never know how desperate your company will be, so it might not hurt to leave that option open. It’s up to them if they want to take it. It might work out for both of you.

      2. Goose*

        I will (hopefully) be in a similar position as the both of you soon. I have been taking up slack from another position they haven’t been able to replace, and another coworker just announced their pregnancy. It’s going to (hopefully) suck. I am planning on only two weeks because otherwise it just feels like dragging out the inevitable.

    2. CatCat*

      I’d give two weeks and if they ask for a reason, provide whatever reason wouldn’t burn the reference. Staffing is their problem, not your problem.

  49. Parker*

    I was wondering how other people were dealing with staff who were unvaccinated feeling as if they are being “punished” or “singled out”?

    We have a staff of 32, 7 of which are unvaccinated and don’t want to be (religious reasons/straight up don’t believe in it). We’ve (management) done everything we can not exclude them, haven’t done anything but require masks and distancing… etc. Nothing to push them, call them out, or otherwise draw attention. They do it themselves, all of them talk about being unvaccinated… etc.

    But right now they are all making a big stink out of something. We usually have a holiday party during a work day with catered food & etc. This year we have some concerns about everyone eating together especially without masks on. To combat this, we’re still having food but we are opening up all our board rooms and encouraging people to sit in smaller groups in these rooms. We NEVER said unvaccinated have to sit in a room together or whatnot, we just expressed to staff to do what they find comfortable. Apparently, despite this event not happening for another month, most of the unvaccinated people seem to think they will be “sectioned off” and two, in particular, sent in HR complaints about being treated unfairly.

    I… don’t know what I can do about this because they’re right. Chances are vaccinated staff will not want to sit with them and I’m fine with that. Heck, I don’t want to sit with them either. None of them take this seriously, most of them have been exposed and had to quartine in the last few months. Most of them talk about not wearing masks in public! I feel like we are doing whatever we can to protect staff and the unvaccinated are just facing the consequences of their actions. HR seems to agree, but I feel like this will end up being a bigger deal. I also don’t… feel bad about it? I guess I’m pretty annoyed with their choices putting everyone in this building at risk on a daily basis, which is probably a bad thing for a manager to feel (four of the unvaccinated are on my team, fyi, but I’ve never excluded them or brought in my personal feelings about it.)

    1. rocklobsterbot*

      Their feelings aren’t more important than everyone else’s health. They made a choice, that choice has consequences. Oh well.

    2. Beka Cooper*

      I don’t have advice, but one thing that annoys me about them complaining about being excluded was that, during lockdowns and stay-home orders, lots of those same people were saying things like “If you’re worried about covid, then you can stay home, but I shouldn’t have to!” Seems we could apply that attitude to them now that it’s kind of reversed.

      Basically, I agree, I don’t feel bad if they feel excluded, and they need to deal with the consequences of their choices.

    3. Red*

      I think the real issue is that they don’t take it seriously and don’t want to mask/distance. Masking and distancing is what prevents the spread; vaccinating prevents symptoms/extreme symptoms should you catch it, though you can still shed the virus (not from the vaccine, from catching the virus). I am unvaccinated and I am honestly nervous around vaccinated and unvaccinated people if they show signs of refusing to mask and distance in public places. Both are equally a threat to me.
      They are technically bringing their personal (and possibly political) feelings into the workplace. To a certain degree it’s not their fault because of the way the entire pandemic has been politicized, but at the end of the day they are disrupting work and should theoretically know better then to be so dramatic.
      However, this doesn’t sound like it’s your issue to address. It’s already been escalated to HR whom have presumably explained what you did about there not being specific seating, but everyone has the right to sit with whomever they want.
      If they continue to make a stink around you or directly look to you for sympathy etc. just address it matter of factly. “No one said [whatever they’re claiming]. There will be no assigned seating, however people can sit with whomever they want and people will likely not want to sit near someone who is unvaccinated and doesn’t take masking/distancing seriously. That’s a risk assessment they’re allowed to take.”

      1. WellRed*

        Oh, I’d stop after “there will be no assigned seating, people can sit where they like.” They already feel judged (I have no sympathy for them) but piling on won’t help.

    4. Rusty Shackelford*

      “Sorry you feel that way, we’re simply allowing people to make choices that represent their seriously held beliefs and their own personal freedoms, and if they choose not to sit with you that’s their God-given choice.”

      I mean, I’d probably word it a little more diplomatically…

      1. Dark Macadamia*

        Made me LOL. “Are you trying to infringe upon your coworkers’ MEDICAL FREEDOM with some kind of seating mandate?”

      2. curiousLemur*

        “we’re simply allowing people to make choices that represent their seriously held beliefs and their own personal freedoms,” I love this!

    5. Why did I go to library school?*

      “Imagine if someone rolled around in a pigpen every morning and then complained it was unfair that no one wanted to sit next to them at lunch. You made a choice, and now you’re facing the consequences. If you don’t like those consequences, you can choose to stop being shitty any time you want.”

    6. Dark Macadamia*

      I’m sure you know this is… a thing. Some people want to believe the natural consequences of their own choices are “oppression.”

      You don’t feel bad because you’re not the one who should! It sounds like everything your company is doing is completely reasonable and these employees just want to feel aggrieved because the alternative is admitting they’re the problem. Keep reiterating that everyone is welcome and you are only doing what’s necessary to make the gathering as safe and healthy as possible (I would not be able to resist something like “I know, I really wish it could be different too” with the unspoken implication that CERTAIN CHOICES make that impossible)

    7. Irish girl*

      ugh, they are complaining because people are effectively pushing them out not the company. You cant force people to like who they work with, only respect that they need to work with them in a professional manner. Their own actions are alienating people. You are right that no one will want to sit with them but that’s not the company saying they have to sit somewhere. Too bac your not more than 100 people an have to enforce the new OHSA rules that came out about unvaccinated people and masks in the office. Those are going to be very restrictive.

    8. Dr B Crusher*

      Personally I think unvaccinated-by-choice (for any reason other than medical, religion is no excuse in my country) *should* be excluded from physical spaces. Not to make them feel bad, but because they are dangerous. If I had unvaccinated coworkers I would rather resent management entertaining their complaints about feeling excluded, especially when I was feeling in danger from having to work with multiple unvaccinated people.

    9. pancakes*

      Why exactly would that be a bad thing for a manager to feel? If they were putting the same time and energy into putting their coworkers at risk in other ways – setting off fireworks in the parking lot, for example – I doubt you’d be chiding yourself for thinking less of their judgment as a result. It’s not somehow unfair or illegitimate to not be sympathetic to these silly complaints, or to have noticed how silly they are. The idea that a policy that applies equally to everyone is “singling out” people who refuse to comply is very silly.

    10. allathian*

      I honestly have no patience with people like this. I will openly shun unvaccinated people, and I don’t really care if they complain I’m being horrible to them. Actions have consequences, and if you’re unvaccinated for anything other than a legitimate medical reason, I don’t want to have anything to do with you because I think you’re a selfish jerk who cares nothing about the welfare of others, so why should I care about your feelings? If you choose to follow a religion that bans vaccines, well, then you’re no less a selfish jerk. Luckily here religious protections only apply to recognized religions, and none of them are against the covid vaccine. Unlike in the US, you can’t just state that your opinions are religious convictions.

      If you do have a legitimate medical reason not to get vaxxed, I’ll avoid you to make sure I at least won’t be the vacccinated person who might be an asymptomatic carrier and potentially make you sick.

      1. CatMintCat*

        Legitimate medical reasons to avoid ALL possible vaccines are vanishingly rare. If one isn’t suitable for you, the chances are very high that one of the others will be (in my country it’s Astra Zeneca, Pfizer and Moderna). Medical outs are very difficult to get because of this.
        We have mandated vaccination in the workplace, and lost a staff member this month who felt her anti vaccination beliefs were more important than her career and supporting her family.

    11. SnappinTerrapin*

      Being “singled out” or subject to “discrimination” isn’t necessarily equal to being mistreated. The question is whether the criteria for treating some differently from others is something rationally related to the decision being made, as opposed to being based on a biased stereotype.

      Even granting the point that there is still a lot we don’t know about this particular virus, it is still reasonable to treat vaccinated people differently than unvaccinated. Even if the employer chooses not to treat employees differently based on this characteristic, it remains reasonable for the coworkers to be selective about who they will sit with while eating.

  50. cubone*

    Anyone feel like helping me with an “I quit” script? I’ve never been this nervous before, mostly because a) I’m ending my contract earlier (at 8 months instead of a year) and b) I think my boss is going to be very surprised and I don’t know that she handles herself well when she’s caught off guard.

    The reasons I am willing to say: it’s not the right fit and/or I’m going back to school (which is true, it’s just motivated in part by it not being the right fit). I sort of want to use “back to school” as the out that’ll lessen the blow and make the whole thing less awkward, but I also don’t know how honest and up front I should be about the fit (like “it’s not me it’s you”). Is there a way to say both? I’ve only previously left jobs after much longer tenures and wanted to give really honest feedback, but I don’t know that I’m that emotionally invested.

    I haven’t been there long enough that I think they’ll care about my opinions, but the real reason is the management is very poor, exclusively absentee and then hyper critical after projects are done, and it’s just a very negative culture and atmosphere overall.

    Adding to the “yikes” of it all: they are hugely counting on my role to execute several massive (unachievable, frankly) projects in the spring so replacing the role will add a lot of stress (but I don’t think that’s my fault, and also that’s part of why I want to go now while they have time to replace). Also 2 staff members quit in the last month and there’s a palpable air of tension and arguments clearly happening about how under resourced they are. All of this is why I want out, but I just feel like it’s going to be received Very Dramatically.

    I plan to give 5 weeks notice, our contract asks for 3 but I’m hoping this adds a bit to “I’d like to do as much as I can to help set the next person up for success” (I know they could ask me to leave sooner and am prepared for that).

      1. SnappinTerrapin*

        I’d bet there is at least a kernel of truth in the slip, but you’re trying to be diplomatic.

    2. The Smiling Pug*

      Honestly, this sounds a bit like my workplace. We’re very under-resourced and under-staffed, and resignations from staff are met with food, tears and hugging. Don’t get me wrong, I love hugs, but not coworkers that I barely know. Anyway, I think a good script could probably go something like, “I’ve turned in my 2 weeks notice, and I’m happy to help anyway I can in that time. Although I’ve learned many things at Llama Training Inc., I’ve been thinking that I need to further my education. Please let me know if you have any questions now or going forward.”

      1. cubone*

        yeah, I was at first nervous that my boss would be livid with me, but more and more I think the most likely risk is that she’ll burst into tears. Which sucks, but again, I just feel like the fact that they are so unstable 1 more departure can do that IS the problem. She also might now, I have no idea! She’s a bit of a wild card, reaction wise.

        I think this is a great script, thank you! I think I am ultimately just really nervous about opening the conversation but is there that much else to say besides “I’ve decided it’s time to move on”, etc.

        1. The Smiling Pug*

          I would suspicious that this is some kind of guilt-trip tactic by your boss. “She cried when all these other people resigned: do you want to resign and make her cry?” kinda thing. Anyway, from what you’ve described, it’s going to be rough regardless, but you got this! I believe in you! :)

          And you’re welcome! I’ve figure that it’s always easier to be honest with management when resigning. It makes it clearer for both of you.

    3. Reba*

      So you are starting school in January? It’s true that starting school is a pretty ironclad reason, but I did have one previous boss be a little miffed because if I had been accepted clearly I had already known for months etc etc. I guess I don’t see the downside to having an awkward boss convo, since you are leaving! but I also get that it is work, and unnecessarily emotional work at that.

      Maybe a gently placed, “as you know, the stress here is high and I realized that’s just not sustainable for me, so when I had the chance to enroll in this program that’s more in-line with my career goals, I was excited to go for it for that and many other reasons” ?

      2. cubone*

        so I am starting school in January, but it is a certificate type program, as in most learners are part time and you can “start” at any semester (not like a “I’m beginning a full time Masters program” kind of thing. Like I don’t even really have to be accepted, just register as long as I have the prereqs). I had been considering doing one course at a time while working, but it’s just become abundantly clear the workload and stress levels at this job would not be conducive for that. So my plan is to take 3 courses (technically full time) for the first semester while job hunting and see where I’m at by the second semester to either continue FT or PT.

        I love your phrasing, thank you! I think as the Smiling Pug noted above, I realize that some of my nerves/consideration of the emotional impact is probably part and parcel of the toxic workplace stuff. I don’t think it’s an intentional manipulation, but I do think this “it’s so hard when people leave :( :(” is probably a subconscious guilt trip, at minimum. I think I need to just get over the emotional side of it – people leave jobs, it’s not my fault they’re precious about it.

        1. The Smiling Pug*

          Regardless of how the class is structured, “I’m going back to school” is a pretty accepted response.

    4. PollyQ*

      Don’t say anything about about “fit”, just say it’s because of school. And I’d rethink the 5 weeks notice, too. Why subject yourself to more crappiness if you don’t have to? 3 weeks is already 50% more than the standard.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agree, going back to school and 3 weeks notice. That’s it. Quitting time is not the time to try to mend things- that ship has sailed.

  51. Red*

    Less a request for advice and more a request for commiseration in my bemusement. I was talking with a coworker and I mentioned I hate shaving my legs (in context it was a reasonable flow of the convo), she looked down and commentated that I did anyway (I was wearing 3/4 leggings and indeed the bottom of my legs are shaved). I told her only the exposed portion; I don’t like the feel of clothing on shaved skin. Gives me the heebie jeebies.
    And then she said, “Oh, that’s like lying by omission.”
    I just kinda awkward laughed and went back to work after that, but lol. I’m still making a pikachu face at that one.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      How weird. I mean, that’s the best thing about longer skirts – I don’t have to shave above the knee.

    2. cubone*

      this isn’t super specifically helpful but I haven’t shaved my legs in 10+ years and man, the work comments are WEIRD. It’s not like I bring it up, but occasionally (especially with other women), someone mentions it or complains about it and I don’t mind saying “yeah I don’t shave my legs anymore” and…… just wow. It gets so odd, every time. I SWEAR I am saying it in a very neutral, non-judgmental tone (because I don’t care what others do, this is just for me! I’m not sanctimonious about) and I have gotten so many breathless rants about “Well, Actually I LIKE shaving my legs” or “I’m a feminist too you know” or “I’m sure you do sometimes though” or “you can only do that because you’re already in a relationship”. It consistently brings out some very, very weird, very PERSONAL deep-seated feelings and reactions in people, from my opinion.

      1. Former Sasquatch*

        I’ve observed that too. People have…feelings about it. A lot of feelings.

        On the plus side, my husband is one of those people, and I used it as leverage – I consented to laser hair removal (and rather a lot of it) in exchange for getting to choose where we’d live when I finished school.

      2. Workerbee*

        Those reactions make me wonder if, deep down, people really are aware of how indoctrinated shaving has been and that their alleged “preference” for it stems from that.

      3. allathian*

        It’s weird! But then, I have body image issues about my varicose-veined and cellulite-ridden legs anyway to the point that I never go in public in anything other than long pants or ankle-length skirts. I don’t shave my legs, but I also don’t show my hairy legs to anyone other than my husband and my son (knee-length nightdress). It’s not a subject I’m willing to discuss at work, however.

    3. Apt Nickname*

      We all do things we don’t like. I’m not a fan of pants, yet here we are. It doesn’t make me a liar when I wear them. What a weird way to view the world.

    4. Jessica Ganschen*

      Oh I’m basically the opposite, I only shave when the texture starts to bother me, and I also dislike shaving enough that I put it off for another couple of weeks anyway lol. But yeah, what a strange comment!

    5. Dr B Crusher*

      Obviously I wasn’t there so didn’t hear the delivery, but that just sounds like a fairly normal joke to me? I mean, if you were already talking about leg shaving? I don’t think it’s that weird in the context.

    6. Eden*

      That just sounds like a joke to me. Maybe not one that landed. I put this out of your mind unless it’s part of some kind of pattern.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      I would have said, “I don’t get it.” Because I don’t.
      You said you don’t like shaving your legs. We all do things we don’t like. I am not seeing a lie there.

  52. bookwyrm*

    My work, a very small nonprofit, has informed us we will be back full-time in January (“serendipitous hallway conversations” was one of the reasons listed) and said that we will not be able to have have a hybrid office/remote schedule (although special requests may be granted for specific reasons). My direct manager is fully remote and in a different state. My grand-boss is local, has been in the office daily throughout the pandemic, and is probably the person I would need to talk to about it since I work with him the most closely.

    However, I have not been included on weekly staff calls throughout the pandemic, as my position is not programmatic although I work on the back-end of them. I started during the pandemic and work with all other staff, but despite asking several times I was only included when there was a specific reason. My position has not traditionally been included on staff meetings. So it’s a bit frustrating that it hasn’t been considered an important part of my role to stay in the loop, and yet I should be in the office full-time when I’ve done my job remotely the entire time I’ve worked there. We have another office in a different state, and at least one other fully remote staff member in yet another state so it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me that we have to be butts-in-seats.

    I am not sure whether it’s worth trying to push back about this since it sounds pretty set. When I was hired, they said they really want someone who will stay for at least a couple of years as this position has a lot of turnover (it’s not the most exciting work, although I like it) and I’ve gotten a lot of compliments from staff about how much smoother I’ve made things, so I might have some capital. I would really like to stay, as I do enjoy it and it’s generally not stressful, but my quality of life has been so much better with working remote. I’m a night owl and not having to get up early for a commute has been great – I had to move further from the office (hour+ commute) as my partner works even further out from the city, and will likely need to move even further/more distant from a metro when we look to buy a place in the next year or so. I’m dreading the hour+ commute and $150/month in commuting costs. I’m not too keen on looking for a new position as my sibling and I are both getting married next year so I’ll be taking a lot of time off for our weddings and it wouldn’t really be ideal to look for a new role, plus I’m looking to start a family after that.

    I should have a call about my performance with my grandboss in the next month or two and could bring it up then, or maybe I should try being in the office for a bit before bringing it up… Any thoughts on how it might be best for me to frame this, or if I should, would be helpful.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I think you might have better luck with your direct manager since they’re fully remote and could empathize. I would bring it up gently at first, not as a hard ultimatum. Just raise “I saw this memo and I understand the reasoning, but yknow I don’t really have meetings to attend, it’ll be a big commuting cost, and I have found I am super productive remotely. Could we discuss keeping my position remote in the new year?”

      Start there. Even if you think it’s ultimately a conversation with grandboss, this might help you frame how to approach that conversation and how likely it is you’ll have any success. It’s a toe in the water, if you will. Then you might have more information to move forward with.

      1. bookwyrm*

        That’s true, thank you. I rarely talk on the phone with them (only when they’re walking me through how to do something new) but I’ll see about reaching out.

    2. Stoppin' by to chat*

      I would definitely start the discussion now. It may help to call out that you had to move further away, and since you’ve clearly been so successful working 100% remote, you’d like to continue doing that. Maybe also with the understanding that you’ll go to the office X number of times a month if needed. Although if your boss is 100% remote, doesn’t seem like it’s actually needed.

  53. Brrrrr*

    I work in customer service for a manufacturing company and I’m looking for advice on how to document those little bits of information, you could call them institutional knowledge, that we need to draw on only occasionally and so can’t necessarily remember off the top of our heads. These are mostly answers to customers technical questions, that can be dug up by asking our Engineers or sometimes by sifting through technical literature, but when I’ve asked and had a question answered once – I want to document the response so I don’t have to ask or search for it again. I want to have an easily searchable system where we can document our standard responses as well as direct people to the applicable technical document, drawing, or other back-up information.

    I am wondering if something like Onenote would be the answer, but I have not worked with that program before so am not sure what the learning curve would be like. What do others here think of using Onenote for this purpose? How quickly can it be learned? Or are there other systems you would suggest?

    1. cubone*

      I managed a general customer inbox and I tended to keep a running Word doc for myself of all these answers, just coping and pasting the little bits of disparate info, sometimes labelling them for easier searching.

      Over time it just naturally blossomed into a collection of standard responses for common inquiries and I then developed a very short 101 guide for other staff (eg. use this kind of greeting, you can copy and paste sections of different answers together, if this question is asked always CC X staff, go to Y person if you’re unsure). I had hoped to then put those templates into either Outlook templates (you can search “Outlook templates” for more info), or even a more formal system like Zendesk, Front, etc.

      I would start with just collecting those bits and occasionally cleaning it up to be more useful to you, and then see if you have the organizational buy-in and capacity to actually create a proper system. Mine happened naturally over time, but to be honest, no one but me was interested in standardizing responses at all and it wasn’t until I started showing how much time and effort it saved that people got on board (maybe people are on board, I just couldn’t tell from your post if this was a “side of desk” project or actually something you are encouraged to lead and implement in your role).

      1. Pippin*

        I do this too. I work in higher ed, which is very cyclical, so it may be a year until I get a similar question and then having to go search-usually using Office 365’s horrible search function. About 6 months ago I started cutting and pasting emails/FAQs into a Word doc. When I mentioned I was doing that, my boss was extremely pleased and asked me to figure out a way to make it accessible (and useful) to the rest of our team. It’s my Winter Break project (Winter break for students, not employees!)

      2. Brrrrr*

        Today it would be a side of desk project, mostly because I/we don’t have the people-power to prioritize it as an official project yet. I am supervisor for the area so would have authority to implement something, but with all the other projects on my and my team’s plate this would not take priority for quite some time. Collecting the bits in one location is a good start, as long as it can be easily searchable down the road.

    2. ThatGirl*

      During my brief stint in customer service, we used Ditto, which is a free program that lets you create short notes and then search for them for easy copying & pasting. It just requires that everyone point to the same path on a shared drive and the whole team can use it. It’s not a formal database, but can be good for frequently (or occasionally) asked questions.

    3. TechWriter*

      Sounds like you need a wiki or team workspace. Do you have a company intranet where it could be hosted?

      My company uses Confluence *extensively*. Possibly something like that would work for you (there’s a free version.)

    4. PX*

      Depends on how big your company is and how tech savvy people are, but honestly, something as simple as a Word document that gets updated constantly and (this is important) people know how to find will do the job.

      Otherwise I’ve seen Confluence or internal wikipedia type environments used for this. But personally, I like a good old, well signposted Word file.

      1. Brrrrr*

        Interesting, a few people have recommended a basic Word document, which honestly had not occurred to me as I’ve never thought of Word as being particularly searchable. Maybe I’m underthinking Word’s capability. It would fall more into line with the tech savvy-ness of those who would have to use it. Our team’s tech savvy-ness ranges quite a bit but definitely no one here is familiar with Confluence or setting up wikipedia type databases.

    5. Hlao-roo*

      OneNote is a great tool for this! The team I’m on in my job has a OneNote for institutional knowledge, and it is very helpful. Anyone with access can update the OneNote and it syncs automatically. The search function in OneNote is also very good, and it’s pretty easy to learn.

      1. Brrrrr*

        Thank you, the search function is what I was hoping would make learning OneNote worthwhile. Also having the ability to save information in different formats – such as an email chain, or even photos – rather than having to re-type or copy/paste little notes for everything.

    6. EN*

      OneNote should be very straightforward to learn! It’s pretty intuitive and I liked that a lot for a similar project. I will warn you that without my continued maintenance (I left the department) it grew pretty unwieldy and new hires now have trouble navigating it. That said, you can use key words to search the whole document, so if someone needed to know about teapot painting they could theoretically just search “painting” and find what they’re looking for.

    7. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Any chance you can get a bare-bones Wiki set up? If your engineers are doing things in Github, you can probably get wiki capabilities for free, especially if it’s just a few people using it.

      One of the nice things about it is you can have complete revision history, so you know who made a change to the wiki, and when.

  54. Alexis Rosay*

    Nonprofit workers, do you attend fundraisers for your former employers?

    I recently left a nonprofit job where I worked for several years, and cared deeply about the mission. I left on good terms and genuinely like the people there. I was just invited to their fall fundraiser, and I realized that I don’t want to go, but I’m feeling quite bad about saying no…like I will be completely cutting ties with that community. (It’s not even about the money, I can make a small donation–attending just feels like an emotional burden.)

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Nah, it’s not cutting ties and we are still in a pandemic after all. You’re definitely overthinking it. If you’d like to you can make a small donation and send a card (Sorry I couldn’t make the fundraiser, best of luck!) But it’s really not a big deal.

    2. The Spiegs*

      No and you shouldn’t feel weird about it at all. It was a job and you left. I don’t think many organizations would really expect you to show up and invest your personal time but they may include old employees in their mailing lists to see if they can be turned into donors. We did that at one of my organizations with employees who donated to certain campaigns while they were still employees and some of them continued to support those campaigns afterwards.

  55. It's a Soap Opera*

    Soap Opera time!

    Admittedly I this is more personal than business. I would like advice for both! I can’t explain the situation without going into a personal story. I also know how to phrase my situation without sounding greedy. Please know this is not about the gift or money. I am trying to raise my children to be a lady and a gentleman; I expect them to be polite; include children who have no one to play with, be respectful, help those in need etc.

    My son, age 8, has a friend Jimmy. Jimmy very sweet little boy. Now I do not know of Jimmy’s family’s financial situation. We noticed once or twice at mutual friend’s’ birthday parties them giving a like-new but used gift. At the same time the family takes exotic/ international vacations 2-3 times a year. It is what it is.

    Coincidentally my husband and Jimmy’s father are coworkers, same lateral position, different departments. For reference we all live in a middle class neighborhood. All adults in this story have always had steady jobs, even during the pandemic. The adults in the story are more personal acquaintances than friends.

    My son and Jimmy are good friends. Jimmy has been able to share special times with us. Jimmy also has a 9 1/2 year old brother. Jimmy’s mom is one of those if you invite 1 child, you’re inviting both. It can be a bit annoying as the boys are each developing their own interests but they have strong brotherly bond and we are thrilled that my son is sometimes included in the inside jokes. Apparently Jimmy loves coming to our house…. ie it is rarely reciprocated that we are invited to theirs. Whenever Jimmy comes to our house he always asks if I can make my famous brownies.

    Side story – My son had a bday party over the summer and invited Jimmy and brother. Jimmy and brother got son a gift card for 1 ice cream cone at a local ice cream store. I am saying this in my story so you can see that gifts in our area/ this friend group are not overboard, usually a $20+/- range.

    Recently son and Jimmy were talking about a movie coming out in a few weeks time. The movie was PG rated, something the parent’s would have been ok with Jimmy seeing. Jimmy’s birthday was a few weeks ago. We try to give fun and sentimental gifts. We talked about. Son asked me for help to make Jimmy some brownies; we invited Jimmy (most likely brother would just show up when dropped off, again it’s fine, we expect it now) to come see said movie with us; and my son made a homemade superhero picture frame with Jimmy’s name on it where we would take a picture by the movie’s poster at the movie theater. My son worked hard making the brownies and the picture frame. The cost of the IMAX movie ticket would be about what we spend as gifts at other birthday parties. We included a note that we would talk to Jimmy’s mom and make arrangements for the movie or another movie (incase Jimmy’s family had plans to see the Movie). Jimmy LOVED it; he was so excited.

    Fast forward a few days (this week) and the mom called me screaming that we didn’t include brother in the gift and (I quote) what kind of gift is that – a movie ticket to something he would see at some point, some paint & stickers slapped on a cheap picture frame, brownies that he gets everytime he comes over. I am so flabbergasted I had no idea what to say.

    Apparently Jimmy’s Father is mortified by conversation between me and Jimmy’s mom, but father is siding with his wife. My husband told me that while their jobs don’t interact much, but it seems to have made an awkward elephant in the room situation at work.

    My need for advice is two fold from both sides –

    Personally: I realize our family has different views from Jimmy’s family. How do I fix this? Was this a bad gift? I feel like maybe I was out of touch with what a “cool” gift is. Not knowing their financial situation, did I overdue it or cheap out? I’m ok with the mom being distant to me. I just don’t want to do anything to hurt son and Jimmy’s friendship.

    Professionally: How should my husband handle this at work. I mean let it blow over and assume Jimmy’s mom had a bad day? I assume the Dads will be fine in a few days and look back and laugh but my husband said there’s this weirdness between them as coworkers. Apparently others in the office noticed that the once friendly coffee buddies haven’t been hanging out. While this is trivial at work, is there something you (AAM readers) think my husband should do

    2. Let me be dark and twisty*

      On the personal front: I think you’re ok. Your gift is on the same level that they gave your son for his birthday so I wouldn’t think any more of it (you could say the same thing about the gift card they got your son for his birthday that Jimmy’s mom said about your movie ticket so…). You may not have anything to worry about regarding your son and Jimmy’s friendship but if you are concerned, just ask your son about it. “Hey, have you and Jimmy talked about when you’d like to see that movie yet?” or “You haven’t talked about Jimmy lately. Is everything ok?” If it’s important to you to get on good footing with his mother, then maybe ask her if she could give you some ideas on what to get Jimmy next time (or as a replacement gift) so you can avoid this mistake again and hopefully her answers (if she responds) are reasonable.

      On the professional front: Just let it blow over. If one of the coworkers says something, then your husband could say something about how it’s to do with their sons’ friendships and nothing to do with work. Maybe something like “There was a misunderstanding between our families last weekend and it isn’t work-related. Hey, do you have that TPS report yet?”

      1. WellRed*

        I would say the gift is above what they gave her son which makes the mother’s reaction all the more egregious.

    3. fueled by coffee*

      Personal: Jimmy’s mother is behaving rudely. You gave a birthday gift to Jimmy (whose birthday it was), it’s not your responsibility to also provide a gift to Jimmy’s brother for his “unbirthday” (cue Alice in Wonderland music). Even if you *hadn’t* given Jimmy a gift, it’s NEVER acceptable to criticize a gift you received from someone else; the parents’ finances are irrelevant. From now on, give Jimmy a gift card for his birthday every year and don’t put any more effort into the gifts.

      Professional: I would just let your husband ignore this. If Jimmy’s father is a reasonable person, he’s probably just embarrassed that the mom called you to berate you. If the father does bring it up at work for some reason (or I should say, for any reason other than to apologize), I would just have your husband redirect “Let’s just focus on work at work.”

    4. Alex*

      The gift was lovely. Jimmy’s mom is being extremely rude. But I think the best thing to do is just file it in your mind that Jimmy’s mom is rude, and to continue treating Jimmy and brother with kindness (which they may see little of at home, apparently).

      Jimmy’s father wasn’t the rude one, and so I think your husband should make an effort to be friendly to show that there are no hard feelings. Jimmy’s father is probably uncomfortable and embarrassed and your husband can show that he isn’t going to let Jimmy’s father’s wife rude behavior sour a work relationship.

      I’ll say that my perspective comes from a place of being the kid with the Poorly Behaved Mom who was often relying on my friends’ parents to be kind to me and give me a break from my own dysfunctional home…

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. Hubby can just let it be known to the other dad that it does not impact their relationship at all.

        Maybe the wife is pressuring Other Dad to ignore your husband or whatever. This will wear off in time as wife will probably move on to another crisis with another person.

    5. Ann Perkins*

      Personally: there’s nothing that is your responsibility to fix and you did nothing wrong. That was a great gift for a kid! I’d personally keep the mom at arms’ length and keep an eye on the situation though, out of concern for Jimmy.

      Professionally: yes, he should let it blow over.

    6. RagingADHD*

      This was a lovely, personal gift that made Jimmy happy, and Jimmy’s mom is acting like an entitled piece of trash.

      Ignore Jimmy’s mom. Have your son tell Jimmy you’re happy to take him if he has permission to go. Encourage your son not to say anything bad about mom to Jimmy, ever. And try not to badmouth the mom to your son, either, just express that you are confused and disappointed because you thought it was a lovely gift.

      The dads should pretend this never happened. Your husband may need to re-initiate friendly overtures to make Jimmy’s dad feel at ease, because the mortification is the most likely problem. If Jimmy’s dad wants to talk about it, that’s fine but your husband should forget it as soon as possible.

    7. pancakes*

      It wasn’t a bad gift just because this woman had a weird meltdown about it. Her reaction was strangely outsized and very rude. Their financial situation and your financial situation are beside the point. There is no particular tax bracket her family could be in where screaming at someone over a child’s gift would be sensible or polite.

      I am wondering where you are picking up the gossip that her husband and your husband are having a hard time getting along now. You mention that your husband said there’s some weirdness between them, which makes sense in context (as does your feeling that it should blow over soon!), but you also say “others in the office noticed,” which makes me think this is an unusually stifling environment.

        1. pancakes*

          Hopefully it will blow over soon, and any busybodies monitoring their work relationship will find something else to be busybodies about.

    8. Owler*

      I think the gift was lovely, but now you know to just mimic the gift they give. Sounds like a coupon for one ice cream cone in the future should be the Official Gift for this family. Your son can personalize a gift as he so kindly did for a non-official gift giving.

  56. LogoNogo*

    Did I go too far during a meeting? My new coworker “Kate” pushed very hard to get promoted to be our department manager just because she was a manager at her old job (that had nothing to do it’s our field or company) and feels “out of place” taking orders. Our company is small and we have a team dynamic of SMEs collaborating to the end goal. It’s worked great, we don’t really give orders. The owner promoted her to a management role after four months of her throwing everyone under the bus for nonexistent errors. As a team we’re not fond of Kate, and our younger staff are kind of afraid of her. We had a meeting yesterday, during an incredibly busy day that Kate called where Kate spent 30 of the 45 minutes we could squeeze in telling us she didn’t like the logo the businesses owner let her son design five years ago before we even worked there and if we didn’t notice the logo was ugly how could she trust us to do our jobs. When she finally stopped to breathe I said “well, none of us designed the logo and Owner thought their son did a great job five years ago, so I’m glad it took 1/2 an hour to clear that up. I suggest we give everybody the remaining 15 minutes to get back to (big issue).”

    I got a few high fives for that but a few people told me I went too far and now Kate’s put a target on my back to get rid of me. Was that out of line? Kate wasting our time over nothing for a power move during a high stress issue that needed immediate attention is terrible management.

    1. ahhh*

      It sounds like Kate unintentionally is very power hungry. This may have brought her down a peg into reality. I would as a precaution keep documentation since Kate now has it out for you. I think it makes you look confident standing up for yourself/ team. It’s not like you intentionally were trying to sabotage anyone. To answer your question, I don’t think you went to far but I’d be aware of your surroundings.

      1. Siege*

        I’m unclear why you would say she’s unintentionally power hungry. There’s nothing unintentional about angling for a promotion to management in a field she doesn’t know basically from the start of her tenure.

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I don’t think you were out of line. This is taking time, insulting the owners son (which it was a kindness to inform her of if she didn’t know), and it sounds like a huge overstep for her role. She deserved pushback.

      If it did put a target on your back, be aware of that. But that’s a Kate problem not a you problem.

    3. Ashley*

      I get the intent and depending on your capital you do have some room to say it, but I probably would suggest next time the part about the glad that took a 1/2 hour and have refocused on can we discuss X because I have to get off in 15 minutes?

    4. WellRed*

      Ha! I’d have high fived you, too. Unfortunately, Kate is not the only management problem you have here.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      If Kate put a target on your back, that has nothing to do with you being out of line and everything to do with Kate being a terrible manager. It may still put your job at risk but you are already working for a bad manager who thinks her personal opinion about a non-critical work item should be The Standard, so really anything could put your job at risk in that environment.

    6. PollyQ*

      You’re not wrong about Kate or about the uselessness of the meeting, but you basically called your manager a time-wasting idiot to her face in front of the whole team, so yeah, that’s likely to have consequences.

    7. RagingADHD*

      You aren’t wrong about Kate being ridiculous, but pulling a mic-drop on your department manager isn’t going to do anything to improve dynamics in the office or your ability to get things done.

      If the owner promoted her and favors her, this isn’t a “fight” that you can “win.” It’s a mess that you can just make messier for yourself.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      My wise friend always said, “Any time we take a stand we can expect backlash.” You stood. Now here’s the backlash.
      The only thing that went sideways here is that you weren’t braced for fallout. Next time, decide if the fallout is worth the victory and if yes, brace yourself.

      FWIW, I love what you said.

  57. BossBen*

    Does anyone have any advice when you just can’t stand your boss? We just don’t see eye-to-eye. We communicate differently. We manage differently. We value different things. I’m aligned with where I should be improving, but even though I think I’m getting better, I basically walk into our 1-on-1s and feel like I get punched in the face and told that I’m not taking his advice and not improving. I’m a tired of trying to “manage up” to try to get us aligned. Has anyone ever successfully navigated this type of relationship? Turned it around? Found a way stay positive and let is roll of their shoulder? Quit and burned the bridge (which is super tempting at this point)? I’m not a negative person, but this is really breaking my spirit and it’s bleeding into my relationships with my team and my coworkers. Appreciate any guidance!

    1. PX*

      Oof. I dont know if this can be turned around, so honestly I’d be looking at getting out while the relationship is still salvageable. In the meantime, focus on the bare minimum to get things done with them. Keep things strictly work related, pick your battles wisely, and make sure you schedule time after you meet with them to decompress/vent/scream into a pillow.

      You could also see if you can find someone else in the company and possibly more senior to talk to and perhaps find a way to work *around* your boss? Assuming you want to stay that is.

    2. Cle*

      My last boss and I had the same issue. The only way I was able to stomach it emotionally was to try and focus on the traits she had that I admired, things that she was good at that I wasn’t, and reasons why other people might get along with her. When she would critique me, I’d kind of go through the motions of whatever thing she wanted so she didn’t have much to complain about next time, but I stopped spending energy trying to get her to see my perspective. I accepted that she would never change, and I could only handle myself. I tried to focus our conversations around things that I thought she was good at, whether I needed any help on them or not, so that the conversations were more positive. I also spent a lot of time on CYA type stuff– documenting, cc’ing her, etc.

      It made things tolerable until she retired. I don’t think this would have worked if I worked somewhere where her reviews/opinions had influence on my pay, schedule, etc. I’m in public education and we don’t get merit raises.

    3. Kathenus*

      I agree it sounds like the two of you may never see things the same way. From your description, I do have one question/suggestion – you note that you are aligned with where you should be improving, but that in meetings he says you’re not taking his advice or improving. For the ‘managing up’ you mentioned, it may mean that at least some of your personal improvement goals need to be more aligned with his, since you have no power to make him align with yours if he won’t. So I’d suggest looking for a better fit at your leisure, but in the meantime even though it may not be exactly the path you want to be on for your improvement, to align more with his goals short-term to see if that helps improve the relationship.

    4. PollyQ*

      Quitting a job, as long as you give notice and finish out your time professionally, shouldn’t in itself burn a bridge. But the problem isn’t just that you don’t get along, it’s that he thinks you’re not doing your job well, which is a much more serious problem. Job hunt as hard as you can, because this person may not keep you around that much longer.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah. I can’t tell if the boss has some merits to his points or if your points are the stronger answer. But he is the boss. Am smh because sometimes there’s the right way, the wrong way and the boss’ way. The last can mean using the longest and most useless path to accomplish the most simplest things.

        Because I really can’t tell what is going on, this reads to me like you are both doing the same thing. You are both saying “No. MY WAY.” Yeah, this is going to do nothing but lead to two people antagonizing the crap out of each other. In the past I have worked the stupid way for a few bosses. I got to keep my paycheck until something else came along.

        Just remember, he has the authority to fire so he will get in the last word. He could be the most toxic boss in the world, but he’s still the one with authority to fire.

    5. Cheezmouser*

      Question for you: are you misaligned on the big priorities or on the details of how to accomplish said priorities?

      If it’s fundamental misalignment on where your team should focus (i.e. you say focus on priorities A, B, C and your boss says the priorities should be X, Y, Z), then ask yourself if your boss’s priorities have any merits. Are X, Y, Z equally important to A, B, C and it’s simply a matter of someone needs to make a decision one way or another? Will X, Y, Z move your team closer to the goal? Are there advantages to X, Y, Z that your boss values more than you do? (i.e. maybe you’re right in that A, B, C will result in better outcomes in the long run, but your boss favors X, Y, Z because it’s low-hanging fruit and he’s under pressure to demonstrate fast results)

      ^The above assumes your boss is reasonable and competent and X, Y, Z are not totally stupid. If that’s not the case, then you have bigger problems.

      Another question is whether you have more project insight/technical expertise/etc. than your boss does, so perhaps your boss simply doesn’t have enough context to manage you effectively or make good decisions. If that’s the case, then how can you provide that context for your boss? My VP doesn’t understand how I do what I do or the details of my projects (and she doesn’t need to), but that does mean I need to translate or explain things to her and present my recommendations so she can make decisions. Yes, it’s more work for me to manage up this way, but I understand that she brings a different skill set (executive leadership) and is privvy to details that I’m not privvy to that will influence her decisions and the strategic direction of our department. My job is to give her the info she needs to make the best decision (which is preferably just saying yes to my recommendation).

      Another potential thing that might be going on is that you and your boss agree on the big priorities but are squabbling over the details. This often happens when both parties are detail-oriented. Again, ask yourself if this is a battle worth fighting or if either route will get you to the same destination. If you say tomato and he says tomahto, then whatever, you’ll still make pizza sauce.

      I wonder if the real problem here is a lack of mutual trust and respect. Negative feedback sounds harsher and more personal when there is a lack of trust. I am the complete opposite of our VP in communication and work style, so we butt heads a lot, but we have a mutual respect for the other’s professionalism and competency, so we’re usually able to come to agreement.

    6. Cedrus Libani*

      Leave. Don’t quit in a blaze of glory. Just get another job, then acknowledge that you don’t think it’s working for either of you, and give your two weeks’ notice like a grown-up.

      The fact is, you’re currently bad at your job. You may be fantastic at the actual tasks involved, but like every working stiff, your job is to do the job the way the boss wants it done. You can’t. Maybe it’s you, maybe it’s them, maybe it’s both. Doesn’t matter. Staying in a job you’re bad at is career poison. What’s that boss going to say about you? Also, as you’ve noticed, it’s basically impossible to keep your attitude and your work quality intact when you know that even your best efforts won’t be enough, so you’ll eventually turn into the bad employee your boss thinks you are.

      For the record, yeah – I’ve had that boss. And I stayed for too long, because I believed in the project and I’m a sweet summer child who thought I could turn things around. In the end, what did I have to show for it? A drinking problem, a weight problem, and a confidence problem; took me years to fully recover. That, and there’s a hard drive rotting in my closet that contains what might be the best work I’ll ever do, but it will never see the light of day, because that boss ran the project into the ground.

    7. SadPanda*

      I am in a similar situation and literally everyone but my boss says I’m doing great, but my boss is slowly undermining my confidence in my own job. I am searching hardcore because I feel at this point that my boss has me pegged as a poor performer and doesn’t/won’t see me as anything but. I figure if I do poorly in a new job, then it confirms it was me, but if I go elsewhere and thrive, then it confirms that I just don’t mesh with her management style. And that she actively or subconsciously has it out for me.

  58. Sick of Pseudoscience*

    I started my first post-college job almost six months ago, and I’m doing well in my position, but boy do I have concerns. The nature of the products mean that as I research possible products and conferences, we run into a lot of harmful beliefs and my boss really gets taken in by some of the more charismatic people. We have a case of books in the warehouse that I convinced her we shouldn’t sell because they claim that chemo is what actually kills people, cancer can only be cured by clean living. She bought them after hearing the author speak without actually reading what’s in the book.
    She started going to a local chapter of a group that preaches traditional food and eating and asked me to look into their conference. The conference last year involved several talks on the dangers of 5G, “informed consent” aka anti-vaccine nonsense, and how COVID was leading to greater tyranny from the government. I’m not sure if my boss directly knows about this side of the foundation, but it wasn’t difficult to find.
    I’ve talked to her before, and I’m reasonably sure she doesn’t hold these beliefs (is vaccinated, is very excited to get her booster, and quickly agreed to not sell the book when I told her what was in it), but I could use some help on how to bring this up. Coupled with the fact that the company went back to work in person in October 2020 (which I didn’t know when I came on in June) and only requires masks for unvaccinated people, a few of whom have tested positive in the last month, I’m trying to be mindful of how new I am to the workforce, but I don’t think it’s good to align ourselves with blatant misinformation.

    1. WellRed*

      For the second paragraph, is she joining this group on her own? If so, why are you researching their conference? For the third, I’m not clear on the issue? What’s the blatant misinformation? Sounds like your boss took direction well previously (the books) and has taken steps to protect herself etc by getting vaxxed. Are your company rules in alignment with local rules and refs, even if you don’t like it?

    2. JB*

      Well, you say she asked you to look into their conference. So report back to her what you found. It sounds like she was very open when you gave her a heads-up on the books. Just be as clear and concise as possible – ‘I looked into that conference as you (asked/suggested) and I’m concerned because their conference last year included topics x, y, and z.’

    3. RagingADHD*

      You’re a new grad six months into your first job. What is your position? Are you actually in a position to influence strategy?

      If the products are wellness related, then they do business in the woo-woo space. No matter how great and legit you think your company’s specific products are, that’s the business model they chose. Your boss is gullible and easily led. Making it your job to try and protect the public by being the one to lead her is going to be exhausting and ultimately fruitless. If the information is that easy to find, she’s either too stupid to find it or she honestly doesn’t care because she just sees the group as a marketing opportunity. You can’t be smart for her, and you can’t care for her.

      You may just be running into an alignment problem with the nature of the business itself. And since it isn’t your business and you aren’t taking the risks or reaping the rewards of its success and failure, you’re better off looking for something you don’t feel like you need to steer from the bottom.

    4. pancakes*

      Look for a new job. This boss isn’t going to transform into a smarter, less credulous person with better judgment no matter what you say to her.

  59. Sharkie*

    Today my team and I had a meeting with our boss and her boss today. During the meeting all three members of the team were invited to apply to different job openings that are going live next week that are in line with our individual long term goals. I have been in this role for 3 months. They would haven’t invited me to apply if they didn’t want me to correct? I think I am just overthinking, but I have seen other managers in this industry (Sports) invite people to interview only to ream them in the interview that they have the audacity to think they are actually in the running.

    2. JB*

      It sounds like they were just giving you the heads up that the positions are there. Generally if someone actively wants you to apply for a particular position, they’ll discuss that with you privately; it’s standard to invite everyone company-wide to apply for open positions as a matter of course.

      That doesn’t mean you SHOULDN’T apply for it, but you should definitely evaluate yourself vs the job requirements and see if it’s actually a good fit rather than just assuming they’ve done that work for you.

    3. PollyQ*

      I… dunno. Looking to change jobs at a company after you’ve only been in this one for 3 months is going to play badly with a lot of employers. I think it’s less a question of how qualified you are for the position, and more that with many jobs, you’re only just starting to get up to speed after 3 months. So if you leave, your current team may feel that they’ve wasted a bunch of their time training you without getting much in return.

      1. Sharkie*

        So my position is weird in the sense of it’s expected that you get promoted in 6 months tops. And the whole meeting was weird because they were giving us a heads up that like these openings are there but then they were like “shark we want you to apply because it sounds like a great fit for you” and “teammate this other role sounds perfect for you. Apply” .

        It was just so weird

        1. Sharkie*

          Also these are positions within my larger team so it’s kind of worn in affect anything at all it’s just weird

        2. PollyQ*

          Well, if they’re giving you that much encouragement, then maybe you should go for it. How’s your relationship with your boss? If you asked them straight out, “It sounded like they were encouraging me to apply for this, but I feel a little weird about leaving this position so soon,” do you think you’d get reasonable & honest feedback?

  60. NervousNellie*

    Does anyone have advice on how to deal with a manager who gives you just god-awful vibes? My department has been sans manager for about 12 weeks, and we finally got a new one yesterday. We were so excited, but when I met the guy over Zoom, I was instantly and utterly terrified of him. So scared, in fact, that I really did a lousy job of onboarding him to a couple of online systems we use. He said a few odd remarks, but it’s not like he said something outrageous or scummy. It was just a sense of “run away from this guy.” The other person in my department (we’re small) is ex-Military, and has made some vague statements that sound like the new manager doesn’t give them a good vibe either. We also had a larger call with wider attendance, and our lead developer absolutely staggered through the call, stuttering and repeating themselves much more than usual. So I figure it’s not just me.

    I’ve been looking for different work for a few weeks now, but this adds some urgency to that. In the meantime, however, I’m open to suggestions on how to deal with someone who fills you with crushing dread and who is also your manager?

    1. DG*

      This is so interesting – can you pinpoint what gives you the creeps? Expression? Tone? A teardrop tattoo on his face?

      In all seriousness, I would try either 1) minimizing the Zoom screen so you can’t see his face while in meetings, or 2) doing a quick five minute meditation or breathing exercise (via YouTube, Calm, Headspace, etc.) before meeting with him to calm your nerves.

      1. NervousNellie*

        Pinpoint? No. I can say there was something about how he moved. It was incredibly calculated, and made it so he appeared more aggressive and more masculine in posture. He was very short on words, as if my very presence wasted his time. If someone was playing an actor who we later saw beat his wife for not having dinner on the table at exactly 5:30, they’d have done well to follow this guy’s physical mannerisms.

          1. NervousNellie*

            He does. He reminds of a person I used to know who was picked up on federal charges for distributing illegal digital content of minors. But then, I got similar vibes from that person.

            1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

              So you’re basing all your negative feelings from one day in a Zoom call on how you felt about some jerk from your past who he superficially shares some movements with? I’d hate to be on trial with a juror like that. Over the course of my life, I’ve had horrible first impressions of some people, and most of the time, those impressions were about ME, not them. One new boss seemed like Mr. Slick Superficial – think creepy used car salesman stereotype. He turned out to be the best boss I’ve ever had, and one of the most empathetic people I’ve ever met.

              1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

                I disagree.

                First, comparing every day interactions to being on a jury is a false analogy; almost to the point of being a strawman.

                Second, multiple other people also had creepy vibes from this new person.

                Third, if we did take this to a court: Your anecdote is interesting and I like anecdotes. That said, this is literally “1 example of a seemingly creepy person turning out fine” versus “1 creepy person who is not fine.” It’s not evidence taht does anything to counter NervousNellie’s experi

                1. pancakes*

                  Two other people, possibly just one, seem to be reacting to this guy: one (the ex-military guy) has vaguely alluded to getting bad vibes, and the other (the team lead) seemed nervous during a call, which may have been a reaction to Mr. Bad Vibes, or may have been a reaction to something else entirely (too much coffee, an unsettling encounter with road rage during their commute, a poor night’s sleep due to some personal stress or a car alarm going off all night, etc.). It doesn’t seem like it’s going to help alleviate bad vibes for people to be monitoring one another for signs of anxiety this way. To the contrary, it seems like a great way to perpetuate anxiety. I don’t know what the ideal solution here is, but I’m pretty sure it’s not distributing these vague anxieties to a larger group of coworkers, as Anonosaurus is suggesting. This is always a pattern with anxiety, no? People who have it always want to spread it around. I understand that’s not intentional, but lack of intention doesn’t make it helpful or harmless, let alone some sort of evolutionary gift.

                2. LouLou*

                  We really don’t know, even from OP’s highly suggestive account, that even one person had creepy vibes from this boss!

    2. sagc*

      Yeah, you can’t deal with this at work; it’s something you’ll have to work out for yourself internally, rather than somehow bringing it to either your coworkers or boss.

    3. Chauncy Gardener*

      I have no helpful suggestions other than to listen to yourself here. “The Gift of Fear” (talked about extensively here) would tell you to not underestimate your feelings about this dude. Don’t be alone with him, don’t trust him, nothing. I believe I would start looking for a job, or at least dust off the resume and update it.

    4. Anonosaurus*

      Minimize contact, and don’t be alone with him. Don’t share personal information with him if you can avoid it (not just address etc but also emotional information about who you are and what you’re influenced by). Look after your energy and wellbeing (sleep, nutrition, etc). If you feel comfortable doing so, ask coworkers what they think (you are inferring their reaction from their behavior and you might be right or you might be off base) but only if you’re sure that won’t get back to him.

      Ultimately your threat response is your threat response. We are animals and that part of the brain is ancient and it’s there for a purpose. Notice it, listen to it, but don’t feel you have to either override it or react from that place in the moment (I mean a workplace Zoom moment where he can’t physically harm you).

  62. Goose*

    My references have been contacted. Now… we wait. I can’t stop refreshing my email because everything has moved so quickly (three interviews in two weeks!) and I know they want someone to start soon and are off all next week for Thanksgiving. This could be a 60% bump (I am vastly underpaid currently) and I need to distract myself. Sending good vibes out, welcoming good vibes in!

    1. demoralized_libra*

      Sending you positive vibes, Goose! I am so far from where you are and just hope that one day I can get there.

  63. Orange You Glad*

    I’m unsure whether or not to bring up something I recently noticed my coworker does. My coworker would frequently have packages delivered to the office instead of her home back in the before times when we were in the office every day. I understand why people would do this and I occasionally would ship personal things to the office when they needed things like a signature or were valuable so it would be a big deal if they got stolen from my front steps. I did notice back then that this coworker would do this far more often than others – like multiple packages per week. I shrugged it off then because at the most it’s inconveniencing our receptionist and she could raise the issue if it was becoming too much for her.

    Now that we are remote, this coworker does not go to the office and gets her mail and supplies shipped to her weekly. Yesterday I was in the office and noticed a clearly personal package on this coworker’s desk. I messaged her it was there assuming maybe she forgot to change the shipping address on her account. She responded that she knew and she’s been having the intern include her packages at the office in her weekly shipments of mail from the office to her house. The weekly mail shipment is a company expense so I’m not comfortable with the idea that the company is paying to ship her personal items to her. We get a lot of mail, but we rarely have a package larger than a large padded document mailer. Shipping her personal stuff would make the size and expense of the shipment much higher (a box versus a flat mailer).

    I know in the grand scheme of things it’s not a huge expense to the company but it’s probably not a good precedent to set. I am not this coworker’s manager but we share a manager and these expenses are sourced to our department so I’m torn on whether or not to say anything.

    1. 867-5309*

      This would bother me, too. I am not sure how to script it so it does not come across as tattling but it’s definitely super odd – she’s home… what have items shipped twice?

      1. Orange You Glad*

        Yea, I don’t want it to come off like tattling. It’s just an odd thing to happen. If it only happened once I would definitely let it go, but she phrased it in a way like she does this all the time.

        1. 867-5309*

          You could innocently ask… “Hey boss, Susan is having all of her packages sent to the office and then shipped to her home as part of the weekly work shipment. I would love to do something similar and just want to confirm that would be okay?”

          It feels a little swarmy but that feels like the only way to do it without “tattling.” Though I agree with the comment below that it really is something to let go.

            1. Workerbee*

              Tattling is for kindergartners. We really need to stop equating adult concerns with 5 year old mantras.

    2. Meghan*

      I’d let it go since you’re not her manager. Hopefully somebody is actually looking at the expenses (her manager) and putting two and two together as to why her expenses are higher than everyone else.

    3. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      You could always do the “hey boss, I see that Jane has some personal packages waiting on her desk. I worry that they might not be safe sitting there until she gets her Friday mail drop packed up. Any suggestions?”

      1. Loulou*

        This honestly would make you sound like much more of a scrub than if you just said “I noticed Jane is having the intern ship her personal packages, she shouldn’t be asking her to do that.” Faux concern is the coward’s way! Also you could just ask Jane directly if she got approval or if Intern’s boss is ok with it.

      1. Hare under the moon with a silver spoon*

        Agreed – not only extra work for the intern but putting them in a difficult position if it comes to light – OP you are in a better position to mention this to a superior than an intern would be.

  64. Allornone*

    My company is having their Thanksgiving potluck today. I’m new to the organization, but previous organizations have done this kind of thing before, so I know how it usually works. But things seem weird to me this time. Our building has two floors occupied by our employees. Sign-up sheets for what you’re bringing to the potluck went up in the kitchens of both floors. They went up Tuesday. Of this week. Okay, kinda last minute, but fine. I signed up to bring cookies I was planning to purchase at Costco (I don’t cook). Then…. no one else signed. For two days. Yesterday morning, two other women, also new like me, then finally signed up to bring pies. No one else ever signed up to bring anything. It’s hopefully possible there was more participation from the other floor, I really don’t know, and the organization itself will be providing the main dishes (turkey, ham, etc.). But at every company I’ve ever worked, participation in bringing food to a potluck is just kind of expected. I’ve never people just not sign. I’m pretty sure everyone is supposed to go to the potluck, so it seems just kind of rude to participate when you’re not contributing. I know this is super low stakes, and I’ve been in no way put out by my meager Costco cookie offering, I just wanted to know if anyone else thinks this is weird.

    1. alynn*

      People who have worked there for years may have dishes they bring every year. And everyone knows so no one bothers signing up.

      When I first started in my dept., they had a potluck for EVERY person’s birthday. Each person had a foos they always brought and everyone just knew. The only thing that changed was the cake flavor per the birthday person’s preference

    3. Allornone*

      Okay, just got back from the potluck. People contributed. There was plenty of food. So much food. Too much food.

      I need a nap.

      Oh yeah, I have to go back to work. Damn it.

  65. alynn*

    A few weeks ago, someone here mentioned a sort of audit some companies do to address pay disparities. The company reviews a position/level to would determine what skill level is required and therefore what the payband should be, while accounting for coat of living.

    Does this process have a name? I want to research this.

    Based on conversations with coworkers, I think there is a pretty big disparity in my dept. Due to some company reorganization, I think this would be a great opportunity to do this. I want to suggest it yo my boss but want educate myself to ensure I communicate well when I make my ‘pitch’.
    *I am not a manager

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      We call it updated salary banding at my company but I’ve also seen it referred to as a retention audit, or a compensation review. I wouldn’t worry too much about the specific jargon.

    2. BlueBelle*

      It is called a few different things; equity adjustments, salary adjustments, compensation analysis. This is typically a function of HR, legal, and compensation.

      Good luck!

      1. ThatGirl*

        My husband just got word of an “equity adjustment” today at the smallish university he works at.

        Apparently they weren’t aiming high, though — they brought people up to the 33rd percentile of similar schools. Which resulted in him getting an extra whopping $700 a year.

    3. cubone*

      my former job did an audit/review and called it “TTC”: total target compensation. I believe this means it’s inclusive of pay as well as benefits, bonuses, other incentives etc.

    4. L. Ron Jeremy*

      Went through one many years ago that determined that my position required a 40% raise. I talked to my boss and asked about timing for my pay raise and he said “we’re evaluating the timing”.

      Left the job after 6 months of waiting. Just because they go through the motions doesn’t mean squat.

    5. I work on a compensation team*

      pay equity audit (compares salaries across employees in protected classes across like jobs)

    6. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Salesforce is one of the big companies doing this – in their literature I’m seeing it called an “equal pay assessment”, and they do it annually. (I think they also do it when they acquire another company.) They also share a lot of how and why they’re doing this.

      I’ll post a link with some of their resources below, but the search string “salesforce pay equity” got me a good list of links (including other people’s articles about Salesforce’s practices in this area).

  66. demoralized_libra*

    So I know that we’re in the midst of a “great resignation” and the job market is hot with the upper hand supposedly with that of the job seekers, but does anyone else who is currently in the job hunt just feel so demoralized and like interviewing is just so much harder now? I’m burnt out from my current position, don’t want to stay, and am applying to jobs like mad and only getting call backs for a handful. And of the handful I do get a call back for, it’s usually to say that I will not be moving on, or I have the phone screen and they say I will not be moving on after that. It’s just frustrating and disappointing, and my self-esteem is taking a big hit. Can anyone share any words of wisdom or advice?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      A TON of people are feeling that way. The actual “hotness” of the job market is going to vary sector to sector, and area to area. Some companies aren’t just desperately hiring they’re restructuring or doing whatever else to either be competitive or avoid having to actually spend the money people are asking for. (Look at the post from Silver* upthread – you’re not even the only one posting about this!)

      Don’t take it personally. Do your due diligence to review your job hunting strategy, resume, cover letter, etc…but this is just the reality right now for a lot of people. It’s not you.

    2. Alex*

      No advice, but I am in the same boat. I’m applying for jobs I think I’m totally qualified for, I think my cover letter and resume are pretty strong (and others have looked at them) and….nothing. Crickets.

      I hate my job so much sometimes it physically hurts.

    4. The Smiling Pug*

      I hear you on this. Even though I’m currently in an OK position, I’m bored stupid and don’t what to do it for another day, let alone another year. I keep hearing “it’s a job seeker’s market,” and I’m like, “Are you looking at the same market as me???”

    5. irene adler*

      Given the “hotness” of the job market, you’d think employers would improve their interview skills- including showing up for the interview (i.e. on Zoom).

  67. Cubicle_queen*

    I’m trying to track down an HR video series that is legitimate but also humorous. It kind of plays off The Office style. It came up once here in a thread about HR; I looked at some of their trailers and they were so great. But now I can’t find that thread and for the life of me can’t think what the series was called. Maybe someone here remembers?

    I can only recall two scenes: 1) Boss is being hypnotized and says he sees a certain employee dressed up as a giant chicken. While Boss’s eyes are closed, the person leading the hypnotism puts on a giant chicken head before bringing Boss back to consciousness. 2) Very enthusiastic female introducing a new policy that is very like Hermione Granger’s SPEW…. Something like Consistent Respectful Agreements = Productivity, and everyone keeps pointing out that it spells CRAP.

    It has been quite a while (probably pre-pandemic) since I saw this thread.

  68. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

    Tips on how to cope with a previously great job that has now turned into a cliquey toxic wasteland meanwhile you find something else?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      While you’re at work, deploy the “pretend your an anthropologist” method to give yourself some mental space from the cliquishness.

      Give yourself some time (not at work) to grieve the fact that your previously great job has turned into a terrible job.

      Lean in to positive interactions with family/friends/casual acquaintances in your social life to remind yourself you are a good, competent, worthy person (to give yourself more emotional buffer from any barbs that may come your way at work).

      Hope you are able to leave soon!

    2. Hare under the moon with a silver spoon*

      Headphones, planning nice things before and after work, get out of office at lunch time and passive aggressive mentioning of the Great Resignation if you do have to make small talk.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Max out your grey rock skills, refuse to engage in the gossip and pettiness, and keep reminding yourself this behavior is Not Normal.

      Good luck!

  69. The Spiegs*

    I have an interview coming up. I moved countries and in my last job – in old country- I had an extremely abusive and toxic manager in a 2 person office. I am not using her as a referral and am actually using the CEO and the Exec. Director from that organization as referrals because I previously worked directly for both of them and had a very good relationship with them both. Any advice for wording if I am asked for a referral from my last direct boss, or why I’m not using her as a referral?

    1. 867-5309*

      Just say you worked closely with the CEO and executive director and they will best be able to speak to your work experience in that role. I doubt, since you are offering folks still senior to you, that someone will ask for your direct boss.

      2. Kathenus*

        I agree, but regardless even if they do perceive it as meaning your direct boss wouldn’t give you a good recommendation, including the CEO and ED as references will make it clear it’s a ‘boss’ problem not a ‘you’ problem.

  70. Visualize whirled peas*

    Topic: They want me to pseudo-interview my replacement who will spend a few hours with me.

    I gave notice on Sept 29 right before the high holidays of fundraising. I agreed to stay on to process donations, work with donors, manage the donor CRM etc. So far it’s working out well and they’re appreciative of my time.

    They keep me updated on their recruitment and interviews. It’s been challenging for them to find the right person and recently, they told me they want to bring in a candidate – for a few hours! – to analyze a few donor reports and see what I do.

    The position is two fold: donor database analyst and prospect research, but it’s neither analysis or prospect research. It’s entirely gift processing, database management and report creation.

    1. I want to ask if they’re paying the candidate for their time, but not sure if that’s my place.
    2. Do I simply show the candidate what I do all day? It’s layered
    3. If the candidate asks why I’m leaving, should I simply say job mismatch?

    The candidate has a research and analysis background, not data entry or database management – much like my background. I know that this can be boring and tedious job – 60% is gift processing and database management so the research and analysis is rare. I think the title of ‘analyst and researcher’ is a role the VP wants to have on their org. chart but in reality it’s not either.

    1. 867-5309*

      1. I think you should ask this – it would be kindness to the candidate. However, I am having trouble coming up with a script… Maybe something like, “I hope it’s not overstepping to ask but I want to make sure the candidate is being compensated for their time spent with me?”

      2. I would come up with a “hot list.” Here is my process, here is what I wish I had known, etc.

      3. You can keep it simple, “I’m moving to a role that is more closely aligned to x work.”

      1. Visualize whirled peas*

        No. This is not a step I, or anyone else took, in the hiring process. This is something they’re implementing specifically for this role. If a candidate is analyzing reports and providing feedback, they’re using skills (ones being paid for in their current role/another job) that they should be compensated for. It’s may not be on the HR legal list, but it’s professional courtesy, a courtesy that is lacking in the hiring process.

        1. Loulou*

          I think from a legal standpoint (and I may be misremembering) the distinction would be about if someone was producing work that the company used (or would use? Someone please chime in!) Think of the difference between submitting a writing sample (wouldn’t expect to be paid) and writing or editing an article that is published on the company website.

          Your reasoning is nice, but it’s too fuzzy. A lot of things we do on job interviews are using professional skills we get paid for at our current jobs.

          1. SnappinTerrapin*

            Maybe I’m misreading, but it looks like this is a day of hands-on training with the employer’s actual data, with the interviewee participating in the work. If that’s the case, the employer benefits from the work being done. It might go a little slower than it would if only the current employee were working on it, but it also speeds up the training if the interviewee is hired.

            On the other hand, seeing the mismatch between the job title and the duties may lead the interviewee to withdraw from consideration.

  71. Katherine Vigneras*

    Stretch assignments – tell me everything please! How did you get one (or, how did you provide one)? How did you parlay it into a permanent move?

    Background: I want to lateral out of my current department and role into a more data focused role. I have the technical skill but not the experience.

    1. Anonymous Koala*

      To get one: I let my boss know which assignments I was interested in and how they fit into my overall ambitions within the company. I asked her what I had to do to get those assignments, made a plan to complete those things, and I regularly checked in with her about my progress and the availability of those assignments.
      To give one: honestly I always gave stretch assignments to my best performers. If someone was excelling at all of their routine assignments with minimal handholding, I was way more likely to trust them with the stretch/ high profile assignments when they came around. If someone was just meeting but not exceeding metrics, I was really unlikely to go out on a limb for them. But YMMV

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Anonymous Koala’s suggestions are great. My experience is a little different.

      I did a combination of just…quietly doing stretch projects independently that didn’t step on anyone’s toes and that wouldn’t impact the work if I failed. For example, realizing my team needed a better way to access and manage data, so I started building a system that consolidated copies of our (static) data files and pulled the data into one database. After I felt like I had enough to illustrate what I was doing and why (maybe 1-2 weeks in), I would show it to my manager and ask if this seems worth continuing my work on to really build it out.

      In addition, I would pitch project ideas. Similar to what AK said above, but I would identify projects that didn’t seem like they were being considered and would suggest ways I could improve a process or generate a useful product, like a results dashboard.

      To be clear, these stretch projects were work I did on my normal hours, because I had time I had built up by being more efficient at my core work. They never impacted my assigned responsibilities.

  72. Aphrodite*

    We are having a lunchtime Winter Potluck with a Secret Santa game on December 17. Everyone has been asked to bring a wrapped gift (any amount up to $20 can be spent) to share. Also, if willing, wear a silly/bad Christmas sweater to try and win a prize. For the potluck, there is a sign-up sheet. I am making what I am calling Salad on. a Skewer. For the SS, I am thinking about one of two items and would love to know what you yourself would prefer (1) homemade flavored butters, using either two or four of the quarters, or (2) a small but powerful flashlight to put on a keyring. (I am also open to other practical ideas if you have them.)

    1. CBB*

      For gifts I usually prefer food, because I have enough possessions and like things that disappear after a few days. However, between your two options, I would prefer the keyring light, and I think it would be more generally appealing. Those things are really useful.

    2. 867-5309*

      I don’t eat butter and anyone who is vegan, lactose intolerant or has other dairy restrictions cannot either… but also, I wouldn’t keep a flashlight on a keyring. Can you just do a Starbucks or similar gift card?

    3. AlabamaAnonymous*

      If you know who will be getting your Secret Santa gift and know they eat butter, that might be a good option. But if you don’t know yet, I probably go with something besides food. But I’m of the firm belief that everyone can use (another) good flashlight!

    4. ecnaseener*

      Agreed that the flashlight is a safer option if you don’t know that the recipient is a foodie.

      But mainly I’m commenting because I thought by SS you meant Salad on a Skewer and I was briefly horrified at the thought of chunks of butter on a skewer to just…bite into like cheese…

      1. Aphrodite*

        Yikes! I didn’t realize I had written it that way. Butter on a skewer to eat? Gross. (Of course there was the time when deep fried butter apparently made the rounds of country state fairs and was reputed to be good. It sounds horrible to me.)

    6. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      If I opened a gift that was perishable food from someone who’s kitchen I wasn’t personally familiar with, and it wasn’t still cold to the touch, it probably would end up in a trash can before I even got home.

      1. RagingADHD*

        I have to say the same. Unwrapping a gift of home-canned preserves or baked goods is one thing. I leave my butter at room temperature at home, so I’m sure logically it’s fine. But on that gut-instinct level it would put me off.

      2. Lady Danbury*

        This times a million. At this point, I wouldn’t want any type of homemade item that can be consumed uncooked/unheated from anyone I don’t know fairly well. Not everyone has the same standards of food hygiene/overall cleanliness and I don’t want to risk salmonella or other pathogens.

        I’ve seen cooking vids proudly submitted on social media where someone will touch raw meat and then enthusiastically grab spices to season it without washing their hands. I cringe every single time.

    7. JB*

      I think in this case, and given the ongoing concerns about COVID, the flashlight is your better bet. Save the butter for people you know more personally.

  73. Chwarlie*

    How to deal with the potential re-hiring of a former coworker who turned creepy/pushy after they left? A few months ago, a peer of mine, Hank, left my team. We always had a cordial relationship, he was nice if a little socially awkward and prone to rambling (I mostly got the sense that he was really starved for social contact from living with his parents in a rural town throughout the entire pandemic). After he left (which was such an odd process in itself), he turned pushy and odd with me and another coworker (both female, all mid-20s), like sending LONG texts trying to convince me to visit his parent’s house (which would require a plane ride!!) or leaving a sexually explicit note for my coworker in a language she speaks but he does not (he claimed someone else wrote it and he didn’t know what it said). Now, it’s been several months, we’ve hired Hank’s replacement, and another coworker is quitting, and my boss has floated re-hiring Hank on an hourly, consultant basis to fulfill some of his old tasks while we search for a new member. I really don’t want to work with this guy – it became so clear that he was barely holding back his desire to hit on me while we worked together and that he has no conception of boundaries, professional or social. Should I mention this to my boss and tell her I don’t want to have to talk to him, or just keep it frosty when Hank is back? Our jobs would require communication but not collaboration, but I’m worried the pushiness would continue. My boss is reasonable in general but I’ve never had to deal with this kind of situation with her before.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Definitely tell your boss that Hank was inappropriate with both you and your coworker after he left.

    3. irene adler*

      Your boss is floating the idea of re-hiring Hank because he has some concerns or he’s heard something that isn’t good about Hank. So he’s needing confirmation.

      If Hank were an all-around great employee last time, there’d be no question bringing him back-right? And no need for your boss to even ask about it.

      Tell him.

      1. the cat's ass*

        Just went through this with a previous employee who is a sweetheart of a person outside of work, but was a terrible colleague. We are so thin on the ground personnel-wise we were contemplating hiring them back, but then the “hey, remember when so-and so did this? And that other thing?” And we realized that it’s a big NO to rehire. Tell your manager!

        1. irene adler*

          Exactly- boss just needs some “reminding”.

          We brought in a temp who was just awful (laboratory work). Absolutely clueless about chemistry. And, apparently, wouldn’t learn/retain anything that I taught her.

          She wanted to be hired on permanently. So she frequently lobbied my boss about this. He, not knowing anything about her work, told her that he saw nothing preventing him from hiring her when the temp contract ended.
          She would gleefully relate this to me every time she spoke to him. I didn’t know if I ought to say anything or not. Boss knows what he wants and who am I to tell him otherwise?

          Well, one afternoon she actually gassed us out of the lab (chlorine gas-deadly!). Boss got told about that!

          Boss asked me about her work and I gave him the truth. He then instructed me to ALWAYS tell him if a temp worker is not working out. Never hold back. He needs to know these things.

    4. Elle Woods*

      I definitely think it’s worth mentioning to your boss Hank’s behavior toward you and your other coworker since he left. You could try saying something like this, “I know you’re considering bringing Hank back on as a consultant. I understand that it’s because he knows our business. I (and coworker) have some legitimate concerns about that because since he left he’s left us sexually explicit text messages. Because of that, I’d find it difficult to work with him on a professional basis. I wanted to let you know so that you could make an informed decision.”

    5. WellRed*

      If your boss is reasonable explaining what happened should send him running in the other direction from hiring Hank. The legal risk alone.

    6. Coder von Frankenstein*

      Yes, absolutely tell your boss. And if your boss is unreceptive, consider talking to HR. This behavior would be clear-cut harassment if it happened at work. No sensible boss or HR department would want to take that risk.

    7. RagingADHD*

      Oh my gosh, of COURSE you should tell the boss how Hank acted! Especially the note! It’s not like his behavior was somehow “fair game” because he didn’t work there.

      Ew, ew, ew.

    8. Have also been in this situation*

      In addition to bringing up concerns officially with your manager and your company’s Human Resources or office of personnel management, you may want to visit Stalking Awareness . Org

      I hope that you and your colleague are able to have this favorably resolved through your employer, and that your employer recognizes and holds the company accountable to ensure that you and your coworker are not harassed and that you are able to perform your jobs without deleterious effects from Hank.

      Clearly Hank has harassed and stalked you and your colleague. (Even if Hank does not recognize his behavior as such.)

      Sometimes your direct manager may not take your experiences of harassment seriously and may think that the work the harasser performs has more value than what your company’s management may believe to be a personal misunderstanding.

      Hopefully your employer is reasonable and will ensure that Hank is not allowed to continue with the harassment towards you and any co-worker. Hopefully Hank recognizes his behavior as harassment and corrects his own behavior.

  74. Janet*

    I keep hearing that the job market is so great right now but- what fields/positions and how does someone go about moving into one of those positions? My spouse has been unemployed/under-employed since just before the pandemic began and isn’t having good luck finding a job in their field plus realizing that field kind of sucks and wants to go into something (anything) different but related. Experience is in communications (not so much marketing) and sports administration in a college setting. Current field does not pay well and has very long hours including nights and weekends which just doesn’t work for our family right now. What other careers could they explore and how to show hiring managers that experience translates?

    1. Anonymous Koala*

      My spouse is in manufacturing, and right now they’re hiring people on the floor like crazy. For office jobs, they’re hiring IT and HR people, and logistics/supply chain people. But I think a big part of the hiring surge right now is people on the floor / CS facing jobs.

    2. 867-5309*

      Does he want to leave communications or sports/athletic communications?

      I know PR and marketing agencies are having a tough time finding talent right now so that is an option.

      I do think, and it sucks, that there is bias against people who are unemployed and especially in a “hot” job market, if he isn’t showing work for the last almost two years then it’s going to add a layer of tough to find a gig.

      1. Janet*

        Communications would be fine but he isn’t getting offers for general comms/marketing jobs. He is applying to them outside of athletics. He is open to others sectors too, we just literally don’t know where to look. Luckily his resume will show that he has been working (sometimes freelance, currently as a full-time interim employee) so he’s not totally screwed there.

    3. Not a Name Today*

      Communication could work into Data Visualization. Watch some demos on Tableau, Power BI, or Looker and see if that is something your spouse could get into. The field is changing so that you don’t need to be a data engineer/ coder to get started. If you start with clean data then you can focus on communicating the data in a consumable way. Then learn more coding as necessary.

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          Ha! Agreed. If you’re lucky, though, someone else may clean the data and give that for you to work with. My collaborators would sing my praises since I sent them data I had cleaned and structured.

  75. Casual Librarian*

    This is more of a technicality if anything, but I’m wondering what everyone’s perceptions of the differences are between “Managers,” “Supervisors,” and any other version of leadership like Team Lead.

    A coworker yesterday brought up that “Managers” only manage people and don’t do any work besides managing people and delegating whereas “Supervisors” oversee “direct reports” but also do some other work. And I guess that’s not a distinction I’ve ever made.

    Any thoughts? Is this completely workplace or field-specific?

    1. Decidedly Me*

      I think it varies by workplace. Where I’m at, a Team Lead supports a team, including coaching and quality, handles escalated cases, and more. The managers (who have a different title, but are managers) are leading a department, both from a people management side and the overall function and improvement of the department.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Yes — my team’s leads take primary point on working with the ICs on the actual day-to-day work – like DM says, coaching/training, quality, escalation and reviews. I as manager handle the team’s administration, ranging from PTO/scheduling and HR tasks, exchanging feedback and information with our outside vendors, interfacing our work with other areas/departments.

        I CAN do the work that the ICs on my team do, but not as efficiently as the TLs because I haven’t done it on a day-to-day level in almost ten years, so I “own,” drive, and maintain the tour bus and they are the tour directors, if I may stretch a metaphor a bit :) Our team won’t be near as effective without each of us.

    2. Frank Doyle*

      I don’t think anything is universal, but yes, I think there would be a lot of people who would agree with that distinction. And then Team Lead is a peer to the rest of the team in most ways, they just delegate work to the rest of the team and are sort of a project manager? (I’ve never actually heard of a Team Lead in my own line of work, but people here talk about them a lot!)

      But again, none of this is set in stone, and things will vary from workplace to workplace.

    3. ecnaseener*

      I think it’s workplace-specific. I have a vague sense of manager being higher up than supervisor, but not that a manager doesn’t do any individual work. My own manager (actually, come to think of it her title is director which feels even higher up) does some individual work. I definitely wouldn’t assume anything one way or the other from title alone.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        In my experience, a supervisor’s direct reports are non-exempt staff. A manager’s direct reports are exempt or a mix. But it varies from workplace to workplace.

        Also, when I worked in retail, “manager” was the usual term, no matter the type of employees reporting to them. But that also included store operations.

    4. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I think I would use manager and supervisor interchangeably. They are the boss to one or more people with power to hire, fire, make changes, conduct evaluations, place employees on PIPs, and oversee the cohesion and productivity of the department. They might also report individual contributions up the chain of command to higher level managers.

      A team lead is someone who’s in charge of a department, program, committee, or some element of individual contributions, but they don’t necessarily have the same institutional power to make broad changes like hiring and firing.

    5. Littorally*

      Here (and I don’t know if this is an industry-wide thing or more specific to my office) we veer away from the word ‘supervisor’ in general to mean a people-boss, because Supervisor is a licensure title that only partially overlaps with that function.

      Previous to this specific issue, though, I’ve generally tended to understand it as-
      Manager – your actual boss. Has hire/fire power.
      Supervisor – more like a team lead, someone who has the power to tell you what to do but is also a direct report of your manager and can’t unilaterally fire you.

    6. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      It’s both workplace & industry based. And what works in one industry/company may be ridiculous elsewhere.

      Seems like 30% of the people who work at banks are titled as vice presidents, which would be absurd in any other industry. And there’s the Seinfeld bit, where Elaine says “I am an ASSOCIATE!”, as if that meant anything to anyone outside her employer.

      I think it’s more useful to ask about the verb, not the noun, when talking with somebody. “What kind of work do you supervise/manage?” “How much business do you manage/supervise?” etc.

    7. how we differentiate*

      at our company, supervisors have duties and responsibilities and supervise non-exempt people (approximately 50-50 split); managers spend *most* of their time managing exempt people

    8. Flower necklace*

      I’m a high school teacher and we use the word “admin” for anyone higher than a teacher. The assistant principal who is responsible for your particular department is your “supervising admin.”

      When I’m talking to people who aren’t teachers, I say “assistant principal” or “supervisor,” but I don’t think I would ever use the word “manager.”

    9. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Completely workplace specific, possibly (but often not) consistent within a field.

      This is like expecting a person’s job title to be the same equal in every company. That’s not how this works, there’s no cross-company standard. For example, CEO versus president (some places have both).

  76. Frank Doyle*

    You know how, often, if a company pays for you to take classes towards a related degree, you’re obliged to pay back part of that money if you leave within a specific number of years? Well, I’m starting a new job on Monday, and they had me sign an agreement like that except it’s not for outside education, it’s for training I’ll receive on the job. I’ll have to pay all costs back if I leave in the first year, and partial if I leave in year 2 or year 3. That’s . . . unusual, right? (The previous person in this position left after 14 months, so maybe it’s a reaction to that?)

    Should I not have signed the agreement? It’s too late for that so maybe I shouldn’t ask. I am within my rights, however, to ask how much any of my training costs though, right? Since I’m going to be on the hook for it? It’s a shame, usually I LOVE learning things and taking classes and such, but now I’ll be hesitant to sign up for stuff.

    I should mention that it’s not really company-specific training (this is a tiny non-profit), the previous person could theoretically be using things she learned in these trainings in her current position. It’s more . . . training about how the industry works? (Hard to get more specific without being too specific, if you know what I mean.)

    Anyway, any thoughts on how I should handle this moving forward?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Alison had a similar letter on October 19, 2021. If you search “paratransit is making me look like a slacker, paying back training costs when we leave, and more” you’ll see her advice to question #2. I’ll drop the link in the reply to this comment.

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      Ugh I hate this and I don’t think it’s normal or standard unless it’s some kind of specialized training you could really use in another role (like getting certified as an X or Y, when those people are paid more).

    3. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Is the training something that has a cost assigned to it when you take it? Like, are they trainings that non-employees can pay for? Or is the department being billed for it internally? Or is it more like having Fergus teach you how to do the TPS report?

      I think coming back to your boss and just checking in on what the ramp-up training will be, and wondering how this agreement you signed plays into that. Seems to me that they wouldn’t have a leg to stand on if it’s training you to do the things you got hired to do.

      1. pancakes*

        That’s what I’m wondering too – is there any valuation of this training besides whatever the company decides it’s worth? Is it something that has a market value? What’s to stop them from claiming it’s worth even more than you’re paid?

  77. ecnaseener*

    What sort of COL increases are your employers giving this year? Mine just announced they’re doing 3%…which is higher than it’s been in past years, but with inflation at 6% it feels rather skimpy to me. (It would help if my employer would implement merit raises already, but nope!)

    1. 867-5309*

      I have never received COL in my career and the only places I’ve worked where there was one, was for union employees in the manufacturing plants.

      1. ecnaseener*

        Thanks, I should’ve specified – people whose employers do annual COL increases, what amount is it this year? :)

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I’m lucky in that my manager has decided anything under 4% is ridiculous right now, and that’s a starting point that can be bumped with merit raises. But my employer is pretty generous.

    3. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      We got 2%, hard fought by the union, but at least we also got 2% for the previous two years as well, since we were without a contract for all that time.

  78. PX*

    I kind of already know the answer, but if a job, despite being technically interesting unfortunately has a leadership team (direct boss and grandboss) who dont get along, cant communicate well and have unclear expectations that make my anxiety go through the roof – its okay to start looking for something new after just 3 months right?

    I knew there were likely to be some challenges when I took this job (and posted here about not getting the best vibes when negotiating), but made the somewhat classic mistake of taking it anyway to get out of another bad job, and now I feel like I’m doomed (my last job search took much longer than expected, and not looking forward to going through it again and now having 2 relatively short stints on my resume either….)

    1. fueled by coffee*

      I think it’s fine to start looking – just carefully vet any offers to make sure it’s somewhere you feel comfortable staying long-term. If you do find something soon, you can always just leave this current job off your resume so you don’t look too job-hoppy, or explain the short-term positions as being due to *gestures at 2020-2021.*

      1. PX*

        Thanks! Yes, I definitely also want somewhere I can stay long term for the next gig, but I’m a little worried about coping with the dysfunction of this job for any serious length of time to be honest. I dont think I’ve been in a job that has made me this anxious before in my life!

  79. Casper Lives*

    Preface this by saying I don’t want this to turn into comments about America’s bad maternal leave.

    My company told us the paid bonding time for parents is being cut from 8 weeks to 4 weeks. The birthing parent gets an additional 4 weeks of recovery from birth time. Am I right to be worried about what other benefits they’re going to cut?

    I haven’t used the leave and I’m not pregnant. But that’s not the point! The executives refuse to say who decided to cut the leave (obviously it’s them) or why. They gave a generic HR answer about how it’s not discriminatory. My boss told me 4 weeks is in line with other companies, and some don’t have non-birthing parent leave at all.

    Anyway I’m tentatively networking. There’ve been other changes that are not okay recently but this is my tipping point.

    1. 867-5309*

      Most companies are INCREASING maternity and paternity leave so this is out of sync, especially in a candidate-driving hiring market. I don’t know that you have to be worried about other benefits, though… How are the financials? If the organization is struggling then yes… if no, it could just be an out-of-touch exec.

      3. JB*

        Agreed, but this is also such a strange and specific thing to cut that I’m not sure that’s necessarily the case here.

        Casper Lived, have you noticed other issues, like being perpetually understaffed/having a lengthy hiring freeze, standard raises not happening, tightening up the supply orders, etc?

        I feel like this could also be just the result of someone very high-up upset that their admin took parental leave.

        1. Casper Lives*

          There’s been things pointing that way. Short term disability was added for 1 year then taken away. There’s reluctance to approve hiring replacements, let alone new workers so we’re slightly understaffed (not unmanageable…yet). Metrics were changed so raises are harder to get. Etc.

          The executives are saying that profit is down despite last year being one of the highest profit margins ever. The new CEO started 2 years ago and seems focused on staff cost savings. No doubt his bonus is $$$!

      1. The New Wanderer*

        It seems like it could be the tip of the wedge – cut costs to the lowest number of affected employees first and see what happens. If people generally shrug, cut the next round of things to a slightly larger group and so on.

        Without specific messaging that explains this specific cut? I’d be alert to any other cues that the leadership sucks and the financial situation is iffy.

    4. Annony*

      I wouldn’t think that shortening parental leave would make a huge difference budget wise. If it were a cost saving thing I would think it would be announced with other cuts as well. It may be that someone high up hates parental leave.

  80. Are you cussing with me*

    This is probably going to sound like I simply can’t be pleased, but I’m aware that my reactions aren’t good, so bear with me.

    How do I stop myself from feeling like an utter failure when my boss steps in to get something done? My boss is a great manager. He doesn’t micromanage at all, and pretty much trusts his employees to be adults that get their work done. But he will pitch in whenever necessary, which I think is great. A+ for my boss.

    HOWEVER, there’s some part of me that feels like a complete failure if he has to pitch in on my projects. Sometimes it’s a matter of something being partially out of my wheelhouse, sometimes it’s a matter of competing priorities on my end. At no time have I felt that something was being taken from me — I’m usually relieved that whatever the thing is is being partially or fully taken off my plate. But amidst that relief, I also feel like I should be able to get things done without my boss stepping in to help or pulling someone else in to help.

    I admittedly have both Boss Baggage and Job Baggage from previous positions. I was laid off with zero warning two jobs in a row, have been blindsided in a six-month review, a one-on-one, and in just a random conversation (two different companies, three different bosses, all terrible experiences, but none of these things would happen under my current manager). I’m also a bit self-conscious because my level of formal education is a step below most of my peers at my job, and my company puts what is often undue emphasis on needing certain levels of education for jobs that, frankly, require far more on-the-job experience than a degree.

    All-in-all, I do a good job. I get positive reviews. My peers really appreciate me and tell me that regularly. I know on a cognitive level that I’m not a terrible worker. But I don’t know how to shake the feeling that I’m somehow failing if someone else has to step in to help move a project along. Any advice on getting over this?

    1. Cookies for Breakfast*

      I’m almost exactly in your same boat, so, here to offer commiseration first of all :) It’s a tough feeling to shake and it’s probably going to take time, especially if it got drilled into you through bad experiences.

      On the competing priorities, as long as your boss knows what you’re prioritising and why and backs you up on other tasks being lower down the list, I’d say you’re fine. Assume that, if he wanted you to manage things differently, he’d have a say on that, so you can keep doing what you’re doing. If he wants you to manage things differently but doesn’t give you that feedback, so that you only find out when something goes wrong, that’s a boss problem and not a you problem.

      Are the things that are out of your wheelhouse something you’d want to expand in over time? If so, if you haven’t already, tell your boss that, and keep a conversation going on what support you need so in the longer term you can handle them (is it training? On-the-job learning opportunities? Working more closely so you can be more independent later?). This is what I plan to do with my new boss, after my previous Bad Boss (who would take on all my tasks and screw them up royally, and always ignored me when I asked for projects I could learn to work independently on) was let go under a cloud of shame. If you’re anything like me, part of your own shame may come from feeling you’re not where you want to be, and at the same time feeling you don’t quite know how to get there I’m here to say that you’re not supposed to have everything figured out all the time. Even the people who seem to have it all together, most likely don’t. If your workplace is the healthy and functional kind, part of your boss’s role is also to help you grow, because how competent his team is can be a measure of his success, and a contribution to company goals that he’s meant to feed into.

      Wishing you all the best, hope a time you can give yourself the credit you deserve is not too far away!

    2. Lebkin*

      Have you talked to your boss about your feelings? Based on what you write here, I assume they would be enthusiastically supportive of your efforts. They probably will tell you not to worry and that you are meeting expectations.

      This outside affirmation can be a powerful tool to fight our inner brain gremlins. I’ve turned positive feedback into a mantra at times to try and re-write my brain. “I am a good employee, and my boss agrees. I am a good employee, and my boss agrees…”

      If anything is caused by a weakness in your skillset, focusing some of your time on improving that weakness can also help fight the self-doubt. You can then build a second mantra: “I don’t know all of this yet, but I am getting better. I don’t know all of this, but I cam getting better.”

      Good luck! I’m pulling for you.

  81. Anonymous Anon*

    I am a PhD candidate who has my first-ever longlist interview for a tenure-track academic job coming up in two weeks. I am over-the-moon ecstatic (obviously still not really expecting to get the job, given the competitiveness of the job market, but still, it’s nice to know that my research statement wasn’t a dumpster fire). Academics, I am accepting any and all advice/tips!

    If it’s relevant: this is for quantitative social sciences at an R1, public university (a satellite campus for the state flagship school). Interview is over Zoom; the search committee is made up of people in related-but-not-overlapping subfields to my own. I believe they’re hiring in my subfield because the current faculty member in my area is retiring (hasn’t advised any grad students in 4 years and is at an age where this would make sense).

    1. DocGlobe*

      The committee will want to know that status of your research and the timeline for the completion of your thesis. Make sure you provide a reasonable timeline (anything too ambitious will work against you). Many universities are reluctant to hire ABDs (All But Defense for those not in academia) but if you have a strong record of completing work that is persuasive. If you have a draft thesis say so. Plan for questions you know they will ask (tell us about yourself, what experience do you have in teaching, what would need for research start-up, what plan would you have for funding, etc). Research the department, faculty and university thoroughly but have questions. Take a look at news coming from the institution over the last while and watch for potential red flags. Everyone will ask you if you have questions so be ready. If there are students on the committee be sure to take their questions seriously (candidates can discount themselves very quickly by being dismissive of students). If you have to give a research talk or have to demonstrate how you teach, be sure to practice thoroughly. And be ready for “situation” questions such as what would be your approach if you suspect a student of plagiarism, student in distress, etc. Above all the interview is not just a chat but the first step to find out if you are a good fit for them, and (very important) if they are the right fit for you. Best wishes.

      1. After 33 years ...*

        Congratulations on reaching the interview stage!
        In addition to DocGlobe’s comments, if the position has any type of teaching focus, be prepared to discuss some ideas about that. Satellites (escort vessels) can put more emphasis on teaching than the flagship does. Our humanities-social science (HSS) students have to take 2 quantitative focused courses, which often involve statistics and the thought of which can strike terror into hearts. So, if there’s a chance that you might have to teach that sort of course, I’d ask about how you’d help students with “Math anxiety”, and how you’d indicate the importance of quantitative work in HSS to them.
        If you have any experience in mentoring grad students or senior undergrads, bring it up if you get a chance.
        Look up the incumbent and see what they do / did, but be prepared to indicate how your work will take research into new directions relevant to your potential colleagues.
        Best of luck !

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Sounds like you are at the “screening stage”, so remember this isn’t just about “getting the interview invite” it is also about “do you want the interview invite.” Really try to suss out what the job will be and what the emphasis is- research jobs are a lot different then teaching jobs. I think others have given some really solid advice as well.

      Additionally, I would be prepared to address how you would support students (this is a BIG thing in higher ed right now) and how you might consider recruitment and retention of students (which is another BIG thing in higher ed right now). Lastly, I would do some digging into how the job is funded, if you can ahead of time, just so you know if it is temp or perm funding. Tenure-track usually indicates perm funding, but not 100% of the time. Good luck!

    3. Anonymous Anon*

      Thanks, all! These are very helpful comments. Will definitely practice the likely questions ahead of time. And the math anxiety angle is actually really interesting. I’ve taught intro stats as a grad student so hopefully I can draw on that. And yes, have definitely thought a lot about enrollments/student retention!

  82. Blunt manager*

    I need some advice on how to soften a piece of corrective feedback.

    I have had an employee reorged under me and he is unhappy about it to the point of being on the verge of quitting. He does great work and losing him will be a blow, so I’ve been very careful with my communications. I tend to be a direct communicator, but he has absolutely shut down when I’ve tried to be as gentle as possible. That, in itself, will be corrective feedback down the road, but for now, I need to focus on softening the message so he listens and doesn’t quit (or worse, get his ass fired for the problem below).
    The issue we need to correct: he’s a style over substance guy. Nobody notices the good work he is doing because they think he’s a bullshit artist. He’s the first to speak up in meetings, the first to respond on slack, but he never says ANYTHING of value. It’s all about being making himself seen while not moving the conversation forward. It’s gotten so bad that I had a C level ask me to remove my employee from a meeting because he is perceived as someone not adding value.
    Now, any of my other employees, I would say let your work speak for itself and you will be noticed, but as I mentioned above, he will shut down and not listen. How would you gently tell an employee in this situation to turn it down a notch?

    1. BlueBelle*

      I think there are two things that need to happen. He is likely doing this because he needs to know he is valued and recognized for that value. He may be feeling out of sorts with the move and not feeling like anyone on this team knows his contributions. I would first ask him about recognition. How does he like to be recognized for his contributions?
      Secondly, I would let him know that in meetings he is being perceived as saying a lot without a lot of substance. Feedback is only valuable if you can give him ways to change the behavior. So you might say something like, “instead of making an observation can you point out a potential roadblock and a solution.” “instead of being the first to respond, I would like you to listen to other people’s contributions and evaluate your response to be something that will move the project/problem/discussion forward.”

      I hope this is helpful! I am sure Alison would have better scripting!

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      Wow this is really tough because I find a lack of self-awareness to be especially difficult to coach. I will be watching the responses! I think the best you can do is give really specific metrics, like “only speak once in a meeting” or “finish X item on the to do list every single day before anything else, and yes I will be checking.” But honestly it sounds like the fact that he wants to quit may be for the best.

    3. JB*

      Are you certain that telling him gently is the right approach?

      If I knew someone was a direct communicator but they spoke to me in a more gentle way outside of their usual demeanor, I would also shut down. It’s very patronizing, and nearly impossible to address for the person being treated that way. But nobody likes to feel like they’re seen as the ‘sensitive’ one.

      And if you feel like you need to change your entire communication style to manage him, I don’t think this is going to be sustainable. That sounds like a nightmare for both of you.

  83. curious inquiry*

    I’m just curious (hence my name, haha) has anyone started a successful business from scratch in their 40s and50s? Like you have your normal 9 to 5 job. For personal reasons decided for a change, went after that dream business even though it was an uphill battle.

    1. Gracely*

      My mother did. She started small, with one project, then parlayed that into more and more, but was careful never to overreach, and relied on 90% custom projects vs. speculative projects, and that kept her business from going under during the recession in 2008 when other companies of similar or even bigger size went under.

      She does have a tendency to overwork herself, though. It took her awhile to feel like she had enough stability that she could turn a project down. Also, without my other parent having a job that provided health insurance, it would’ve been much more difficult for her.

      The lack of universal healthcare is a serious impediment to starting a business from scratch, even if you’re only employing yourself.

    2. RagingADHD*

      How successful? I started writing and freelancing in my 40s, and it took a while to build up but it’s a good living now.

    3. beach read*

      My Parents were 50 when they started their own business. When they started, my Mother kept her full time job so that they could keep her medical benefits. It was successful for 15 or so years before my Dad got sick and they decided to sell. I was too young at the time to appreciate how amazing it was that they had done that.

    4. Cedrus Libani*

      My parents started a dot-com in the early 1990s. They were in their 40s. Dad was an engineer who wrote most of the back-end from scratch; Mom was a secretary who did most of the front-end, recruited clients, and dealt with customer inquiries. Grandma took over the customer inquiries on the weekends, and they had a grade-school-age child (me) who was decent at computer graphics / Photoshop and who would work cheap. They made websites for small retailers within their shared hobby community, and would collect commission from any sales made through the site. There was enough income to support the business, but honestly I’m pretty sure Mom made more per hour as a secretary, even though she did get to work from home and also got a bunch of hobby-related freebies. Dad kept his day job.

  84. AnotherLibrarian*

    So, this a question for anyone in the graphic design field or maybe adjacent. I am on a hiring committee for an entry-level graphic design adjacent position at a university. Is it normal in graphic design for people to send in very odd resumes? We’ve gotten a lot with odd color choices (pink font, really?) and like images and some super hard to comprehend formatting. The content of some of these resumes isn’t bad, but I’ve never seen so many that were just oddly formatted. My colleagues on the committee are equally confused, but as one of them put it, “I haven’t been an entry level graphic designer in 15 years.” We’re trying to be fair to folks, but if you can’t do good layout on your own resume, how can we know you can do it for our alumni publication? Is this a thing in graphic design and I just don’t know it? Are we being overly harsh?

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I do think there’s more room in graphic design for “unique” resume formats, but I’d expect them to be easy to read and understand. Are these resumes PDFs or is there any chance they’re getting rendered weird through your application system? Like that pink font, did they maybe intend it to be a different color but weird things happened in formatting transit?

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        The pink font was a PDF resume and the color was matched to the border and the signature on the cover letter. It was quite the document and all of us were befuddled. However, the candidate wrote a decent cover letter, so very well may get an interview anyway.

    2. Anonymous Luddite*

      Yes, GD opens the door for “creative” resumes. Yes, it provides a glimpse into their creative process.
      No, you are not being overly harsh. Pink ink and bad formatting? If they can’t sell themselves, what makes you say they will sell you any better?

      That said, if it is something as basic as “the color is bad, but the information is solid” – that’s what entry level is for. If they submitted that and you said “change the ink” they would have to.

      As to the people who submit even though they don’t meet the requirements… that’s just the perceived cache of working for a library plus the condescension of “It’s a library, how hard can it be?”

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        What has made this search peculiar is that the people are qualified for the job. We’ve already eliminated folks who are unqualified. The formatting decisions are a little more exotic than I’m used too in my boring “faculty” job searches that don’t involve hiring a graphic design. So, I wanted to ask if I should be more forgiving of this behavior in a graphic design context.

        1. Anonymous Luddite*

          Apologies – I was referring to the people who apply with “I haven’t been an entry level designer in 15 years”

    3. Owler*

      If they are entry level, it could mean that they are used to being in design classes where they feel like they have to be different to stand out. They may not have learned about business norms, or they have absorbed the wrong lessons about how to make sure their work gets noticed.

      It may be a red flag depending on how much design work you are expecting from the position. Within a university, you probably have guidelines and a style guide from a marcomm department that dictate a general look and feel. Can the designer work within those guidelines if they display poor taste in their own resume? Are they going to feel stifled by only using the three pantone colors the marketing department has chosen? If you don’t have established guidelines, are you expecting them to develop design norms for your group and do they have the design taste to make those decisions?

      If their technical skills are on point, and it’s more of a question of taste (like the pink is a bad color choice, but the design of the resume is otherwise good), they may still be worth interviewing. You will need to have an idea of what the balance is between how “creative” the position is expected to be, and how much of the work is creating new materials (newsletters, flyers, posters, report graphics) to match precious work. I’ve been in positions where the creativity comes from working within design guidelines instead of creating them, and a lot of graphic designers struggle with those constraints.

      1. Owler*

        That should say “match **previous* work”, not precious work. Although some designers do consider their work precious.

  85. Soon to be She-cessed*

    I’m going to need to quit my job next week due to childcare constraints. Multiple arrangements haven’t lasted over a month each and even when I’ve had a plan in place, coverage has been unreliable. Any tips on how to mitigate my resume gap? Or how to handle the notice period? I’d love to give 2 weeks but since our childcare arrangement ended with almost no notice I’m not sure how to work out my last two weeks.

    1. Ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*

      Don’t sweat the gap. Just cite COVID + childcare and any reasonable employer will nod their heads and move on.

      I have a nine-year gap on mine for a personal choice to stay at home with my kids. That gap never came up beyond “I stayed at home with my kids.” That was already 12 years ago and my resume no longer goes that far back.

      Of course, this may vary with the industry and sector.

      1. Dark Macadamia*

        Thank you for this. I’ve been a SAHM for over 5 years now (I was planning to start applying for jobs in… March 2020) and I often feel like I’m never going to be able to work again.

        1. Ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*

          It also varies with the field. I’m a career administrative assistant and my first job back after nine years felt the same as when I left. I had kept up with the software at home.

          I know a lovely neighbour who also fretted and she managed to find a coveted federal job after an even longer period at home.

          Don’t let being a SAHM stop you!

  86. Ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss*

    As I look at the very different personalities and level of tech savvy on my team, I wonder: do software tools like monday.com actually work?

    It would work great for Suzie but Tamara would find ways to work without it, around it or screw it up and Toby would just refuse to use it.

    1. ferrina*

      Yes, it works. Monday.com is actually a good one for the less tech-savvy folks. But the key isn’t the tech, it’s the management. Some tips:

      1. Get the tech totally set up before having people come into it. PM softwares are customizable and you’ll need to set them up in the way your team needs to track their work. Build a template and prepare an SOP before you roll it out for your team.
      2. Make it clear that this is not optional. This is now part of their jobs, and you’ll be using it to help you [know the status of projects/see how busy each person is/project revenue/etc.].
      3. Remind people to do it for the first couple months. And directly tell people to do it! “Javier, can you add the timeline for the Purple Pajama project in Monday? Thanks.” “Cassidy, did you see the client email that just came in? Can you update the project in Monday accordingly?”
      4. Provide support. Offer to sit with them the first couple times they enter a new project or make an update. If they have questions, always be supportive and willing to set up a time to chat. If they want updates, listen and think about it. Be empathetic to the learning process and train as needed.
      4. Check their projects regularly and call them out if they don’t keep it updated. This doesn’t need to be disciplinary- assume someone forgot for the first few infractions. “Hey Jim, it looks like Monday hasn’t been updated for the Feline Tapdance Recital. Can you get that updated by EOD?” If Toby refuses to use it, that’s not okay and should be disciplined just as he would be if he refuses to do any other part of their job.
      If Tamara wants to track her work elsewhere, fine, as long as she also tracks it in the team tracker. I found it helped to show folks exactly how I used the info they put in to help do my job. Good luck!

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        I’d add to this, if you’re going to shift the team to software, leadership has to be 100% invested in it. My old job tried to get us to use asana but the head boss, cause of most of the issues with workflow, never really committed to it so everybody knew it wasn’t actually being enforced/monitored/used – I’m only willing to diddle around in a software I wouldn’t have chosen for task management if I can see it add value for all. Otherwise, let me do it the way that works best for me. If it’s mostly to micromanage me (like nobody senior is really using it but my boss wants to log in once a month to check that I’m being productive) I’m not going to be nearly as good a sport about it.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Is there flexibility in what “using it” looks like? That’s going to make a difference, I think.

      The agency I mostly freelance with uses ClickUp to manage projects. I know a lot of folks, particularly their full time staff, use it to manage their calendars, email, and daily to-dos. None of that part of it makes any sense to me, and I’d never get anything done if I was trying to use it that way. At the same time, those functions don’t affect anyone else on the team, so they neither know nor care if I’m doing it or not.

      The key elements are completing tasks on time in the right order, marking whether they are “In Progress” or “Done,” tracking billable time, documenting notes on the work I do, and responding to notifications. I do all that stuff, so everyone can see where we are in the project and we’re sharing info.

      Perhaps if there’s a baseline of what is necessary to keep the team informed, you can be really clear about setting that expectation and let the other features be optional. Also, setting permissions can be important. My team has everything set up in such a way that regular users can’t screw anything up that would affect the whole project.

      I mean, if your team is refusing to follow processes, document their work, share information, or post time logs, that’s not a software issue. That’s a behavior issue. The software tool is just the place where they put it.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      This may not help, depending on the specifics of your situation:

      Asking, “Does this tech work?” is the wrong question. That leads down the road to trying to solve a people problem with a process or technology, which (as you’ve pointed out), won’t work. In my experience, it’s not about tech savviness, it’s about:

      1) Having a problem that a critical mass of people recognize.
      2) Everyone committing to solve the problem.
      3) Pitching a solution.
      4) Testing whether people are REALLY willing to solve it, based on whether they put in effort to learn and implement the solution.

      I’m sure there are more pieces; my process in change management has been a bit more organic, but also I have had few successes because of #4.

  87. JustaTech*

    My work has decided to be cheap or weird or something and will no longer provide tea bags (we’re welcome to use the “tea” pouches for the weird coffee machine – so basically brown or green swill).

    There’s no point in arguing with them about this, so here’s my question: What’s your favorite tea that comes in a tea bag?
    Thanks!

    4. ferrina*

      Lady Grey- Twinings (black)
      Baker Street- Murchies (black and green blend, slightly smokey)
      Mixed fruit herbal- Celestial Seasonings (herbal- I like being able to pick the fruit that I’m feeling that day))

      1. Coenobita*

        Same! If you are in the U.S., get the Canadian version if you can (but the U.S. version is good too).

    6. Lady_Lessa*

      Earl Gray, Earl Gray with Lavender (surprisingly good), Constant Comment. I think that it comes in both black and green.

      I also like various herbal teas, including Cranberry. (that I have to get at Amazon because Target and Giant Eagle quit carrying that flavor)

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        Celestial Seasonings Zinger teas are fantastic both hot or cold.

        I prefer loose tea, but I’ll take Twinings bags, too.

    8. Hornets*

      Harney and Sons, hot cinnamon spice tea in the sachets. They also have decaf and green tea versions of it. My favorite way to start the morning – no milk or sugar necessary.

      3. Girasol*

        Harney’s “Paris” tea is amazing. When it comes to plain grocery store tea, though, I like Stash Double Spice Chai, or for just chugging in quantity, plain Tetley.

      4. Tessie Mae*

        I just tried Harney & Sons Hot Cinnamon Sunset Black Tea for the first time last weekend and I am hooked. And I can get it at Target. Sweet (literally)!

    10. Cookies for Breakfast*

      I have a soft spot for Twinings Vanilla Tea. Also love the flavour of Jasmine green tea (and again, think the only brand I’ve had is Twinings, but I’m ready to bet any brand of that is nice).

      If the brand is available where you are, the Pukka Three Cinnamons infusion is also lovely.

    11. Mbarr*

      Twinings Honeybush, Mandarin & Orange.

      If you don’t mind bagging it yourself, from David’s Tea, get some Dragon Pearls or White Jasmine tea. So delicious.

    12. No Tribble At All*

      Trader Joe’s Irish Breakfast tea. The bags aren’t individually wrapped, so keep the package in an airtight container after you’ve opened it.

      1. the cat's ass*

        came here just to say that! TJs has lots of good teas but you’ll need a container as they are loose sachets and a cardboard box.

    14. Littorally*

      I’ve been on a “spice” kick lately, so my tea chest at work is Twinings chai ultra spice, Bigelow vanilla chai and caramel apple, Celestial Seasonings caramel apple and vanilla fireside spice when I want herbal. The apple ones also tend to come with cinnamon, clove, and nutmeg involved, so they’ve got that same warm spice flavoring.

    15. Llellayena*

      Republic of Tea – Vanilla Almond
      Tazo – Vanilla Caramel Chai (anyone see a theme here?) – this is my current daily dose
      Bigelow – Mint Medley (herbal, great for nausea)
      Stash – Chocolate Hazelnut (decaf)

    17. Tabby Baltimore*

      Tazo Awake English Breakfast. And if Tazo had any black tea stronger than that, I’d buy it.

    19. Lucien Nova*

      Harney & Sons Hot Cinnamon Spice. My absolute go-to tea. Also comes in looseleaf, if you prefer that for something.

    21. Sleeping Late Every Day*

      I like the Bigelow teas because they stay fresh. I’m sure there are other brands in sealed packets, but that’s my preference, in Earl Grey, Constant Comment, and Lemon Lift (which is divine if you’re feeling a bit icky). I don’t do decaf or green or herbal, so can’t recommend any of those.

  88. ManagerOfPolyamorous*

    Hello! I’m the OP from a letter earlier this week (the one with the polyamorous employee), and someone in that thread wanted to know what kind of office party we have that people so badly want to attend.

    Without going into too much detail, my company is in a creative AND technical industry, and the atmosphere is quite friendly. The industry is known for being “work hard, play hard” and while we are not as heavy on the “work hard” part as others in the industry, we do enjoy cutting loose when given the opportunity. Our parties are always offsite at generally swanky venues, with most or all of the place rented out specifically for us. The bars are open and the food is always top notch. 90% of people dress fancy, given the casual nature of our workplace it is a fun change of pace, and the other 10% show up in their sunday jeans and button ups. I’d say about 75% of employees show up at the parties, but given that we now have shifted to primarily WFH and have a lot of fully remote employees in other parts of the country (and world) I suspect that number will be lower this year.

    So… yeah. Free food and booze with friendly coworkers and their +1s is the draw, I think. What are other office holiday parties like? I’ve only ever worked in this industry, so I’m picturing something like the holiday episodes of The Office.

    1. Christmas Cactus*

      I feel like office parties vary so much. I’ve been at the same place for almost ten years, and even in that time our party has changed (when I started, it was forced cheer while it was still light out and most of the people with year-end deadlines couldn’t be there because they had calls. Now they’ve made it later in the day and allowed people to bring spouses and it’s much looser. I’m a fan!)

      That said, given the way this site skews, I think the vocal part of the commentariat would prefer no holiday party.

      1. JustaTech*

        Same here, on the variability of work holiday parties. Ours have been at fancy hotels, at museums, at the aquarium (awesome!), at a VP’s country club, at a whiskey distillery where we had a fake casino, and in the lunch room.

        For most of those people were pretty excited and got dressed up. Before my time there was completely open bar and plated dinners and people were very excited (but also there were shenanigans, and it was expensive).

        The one in the office lunch room was, frankly, sad. We had to do it there because we’d renovated the building and “needed to save money”. So rather than going to a cool venue I got to spend two days putting up lights and paper pom-poms and snowflakes and (honestly pretty cool) pre-lit birch trees. People attempted to get dressed up and some +1s came, but it was still the lunch room with a disco ball.

        My spouse works in tech so his parties have always been epic, though the last one was frankly too big and it was just a lot of standing in line for food or drinks in the stadium event space (and no matter how well you decorate that space it’s still hard, cold cement floors).

        But I think a lot of it isn’t just about the space or activities of the party, it’s about wanting to spend time with those people. I’ve been to big parties that should have been cool (great food, lots of bands) but we didn’t really know anyone so it was weird and awkward, and I’ve been to less cool-sounding parties that were lots of fun because we knew folks and everyone was having fun. (I’ve also been to a party right before a bankruptcy where the best event space and all the alcohol in the world couldn’t make up for the pervasive air of doom and gloom.)

    2. Cookies for Breakfast*

      Open bars, fancy dress and swanky venues sound a lot like what my workplace does. The culture is very casual and most of the workforce quite young, and generally, the company does well at keeping the “party hard” crowd happy.

      Up until a few years ago, some of the parties were not particularly inclusive (very heavy on alcohol and little or no food; venues not close enough to public transport we could use late at night; fancy dress themes most people would have to spend a lot of money and effort on). In recent years, they improved on a few of those aspects, and the parties feel more like a pleasant social occasion than forced fun. They also don’t do +1s at all, which I personally appreciate, as someone who tries to keep work and private life separate (plus, I’m pretty sure my partner wouldn’t want to go, even if I could invite him).

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      My first job out of college was a government contractor in the DC area, in the 90s. About 400 people when I started, more than 1000 a decade later. They rented out some really swanky space in the DC area, and I’d say 80% or more of us were in black tie. Open bar, top-of-the-line buffet food, dance floor with live music. Held on a Friday evening, and they were very generous about everybody taking off at 3:00 so they could go home and change.

      Our fiscal year ran July-June, so the joke was that we could figure out how good of a year we were having by how late they kept refilling the shrimp on the buffet. If the shrimp were gone at 7:30, then you shouldn’t expect any bonuses come summer.

    4. Dark Macadamia*

      I taught in a public school so our parties weren’t fancy but I enjoyed them. Students had a half-day the last day before winter break so after they left we would do a potluck and gift exchange (swap/steal style) with a $20 limit. Optional, during work hours, and we could go home early.

    5. Jack Bruce*

      at my previous job, it was always potlucks in the largest conference room during work hours. Nothing anyone would want to bring a +1 to!

    6. RagingADHD*

      I’ve been to one work holiday party back in the 90s that was awesome, in a swank venue with amazing hors doevres, good music, and an open bar. Very shmancy.

      Most of the others have been something between The Office’s Cinco de Mayo celebration and a budget reception for a shotgun wedding at the VFW hall.

  89. Paper Librarian*

    I have a question about religious discrimination and what counts as an undue burden, but I don’t want to send it as an official question because it was inspired by a facebook fight. (lol)

    Anonymous asked whether they should disclose they were shomer Shabbat before or after being offered a job. I’m not familiar with Jewish practices myself, but the question-asked said it meant she can’t work Friday evenings through Saturday evenings. Many people advocated anon to wait until being offered the job to disclose, which I absolutely agreed with.

    This is for a library group and since most libraries have evening and weekend hours, there were some commenters arguing that anon would need to cover Fridays and Saturdays sometimes. I pointed out this was textbook discrimination, but others argued it wouldn’t be fair to the coworkers. There were other commenters wondering what would be an undue burden for the hiring library.

    I’m of the opinion that it’s the library’s obligation to hire more staff to ensure all days were covered and that religious rights were protected. I’ve worked at libraries long enough to know how difficult staffing and budgeting can be, but I still can’t imagine a workplace that wouldn’t step up to help cover the weekly obligations of a coworker.

    1. Anonymous Luddite*

      Random question because I’ve seen libraries that go both ways: Is the library open on Sunday?
      Because if it’s closed – how conveeeeeenient that they have their religious needs automatically met.
      And if it’s open – does really and truly everyone take turns on all Sunday shifts?

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        My guess is… It depends. My first job was at a library, & I worked every Sunday unless I needed it off & traded hours with someone.

        With the number of other times available, I don’t doubt this could be accommodated.

    2. fueled by coffee*

      I’m Jewish (and kind of observant), so from my perspective: If it’s a job requirement that everyone needs to work some Friday night/Saturday hours, then it’s an undue burden for someone else to have to cover those hours.

      If people are assigned to shifts, some of which do not involve working Friday nights/Saturdays, then this employee can be assigned to a non-Friday night/Saturday shift — not an undue burden (for example, this employee could be assigned to Sunday shifts in lieu of Saturdays). If they are specifically trying to hire someone to cover Saturdays, then it’s reasonable for them not to hire someone who can’t work those hours — but then it should be specified in the job requirements what hours are expected.

      1. Kimmy Schmidt*

        The library availability on Sunday was going to be my question as well.
        It might also depend on the position. At my library, we occasionally have outreach and programming events on Saturdays. Certain public services positions are expected to attend these Saturday events as a core component of their job, so my question is how “core” these weekend hours are to this specific position.

    3. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Per the EEOC the threshold of an “undue hardship” for a religious exemption is lower than for something like the ADA.

      “courts have found undue hardship where the accommodation diminishes efficiency in other jobs, infringes on other employees’ job rights or benefits, impairs workplace safety, or causes co-workers to carry the accommodated employee’s share of potentially hazardous or burdensome work”

      So…is not working weekends a benefit? Is working weekends burdensome? I dunno. In terms of library hours and limited staffing, maybe. But I think they might have a case if someone desired to push back.

      I tend to think the library would LOSE the case, to be clear, but it might not be thrown out immediately.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        I said the threshold is lower I meant higher. It’s easier to get an ADA accommodation than a religious one. Words are hard on Fridays.

    4. Zona the Great*

      Also a former orthodox Jew–someone that strict probably shouldn’t and likely wouldn’t seek a position that usually requires these hours. The better thing would be to ask about the hours of the position if not posted in the ad.

      1. fueled by coffee*

        This too (although tbh it’s not always clear what things like “some weekend availability” mean in job ads).

        Also, I’m giggling at your username.

    5. Lady_Lessa*

      I would have the person check the hours that the library is open. My local ones tend to close early (6 pm) on Fridays, but are open normal hours (10 a to 5 or 6 p on Saturdays). Only 1 or 2 in the system are open on Sundays. The Saturday workers tend to rotate, so no one is stuck working that day all the time.

      Personally, I would choose to disclose early, and if open on Sundays offer to be a more permanent worker on that day.

      1. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

        I live in a town with lots of observant Jews … our local library branch defaults to Sundays only on the weekend when it doesn’t do two weekend days (e.g., summer hours).

    6. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Intriguing question. This may or may not be specific to libraries, but as a hiring manager, my first thought for an accommodation would be to figure out, “Can you work enough of the hours that this position requires, like a 4+10 schedule?”

      So, work 10 hour shifts, Monday through Thursday (assuming this is a full time role at 40 hours per week). I haven’t managed coverage based positons, though, and that seems applicable here. With a coverage based position, I do wonder if this inflexibility would be considered an undue burden. Then again, if an flexible schedule was required, I would want to put that in the job ad and reinforce it in the first interview/phone screen…in which case I would be deeply annoyed if anyone failed to let me know they didn’t have a flexible schedule for any reason (e.g., child care, adult care, religious requirements) until the offer stage and would feel justified in rescinding the offer.

      No idea how that would hold up in court, though.

    7. anon for this one*

      I wouldn’t consider it discrimination. I work in a Jewish studies role in a secular public library and our schedule is Monday through Saturday, with rotating days off. It’s certainly ironic that what some may view as a “Jewish institution” is open Saturday and not Sunday, but we are not a religious institution (and yes, I’m aware that closing Sundays also has religious roots).

      In my view there would not be any reasonable accommodation for someone who could never work Saturdays. The hours are posted right in the job ad and someone who can never work those hours doesn’t meet a key qualifucation. As an existing employee, my boss hiring someone who never worked Saturdays would negatively affect my quality of life and I’d be mad about it.

      1. anon for this one*

        Editing to clarify, when I say I can’t think of a reasonable accommodation, I mean for my particular version of this situation (small team with specialized skills providing coverage for set times). If I were on a larger and less specialized team, I can imagine a situation where someone never worked on Saturday and it was fine. The question is how it would impact operations.

  90. The Buddhist Viking*

    My wife lost the job she loved at the top of the pandemic, and it’s really done a number on her confidence and self-esteem. She’s been able to take on temporary gigs–she’s a musician and music teacher–but finding an actual position has proved incredibly hard. And working in music is truly important to her; we’ve had to tighten our belts a bit, but I’d rather do that than force her to give up on being a music professional. (Plus, frankly, most musicians don’t make a ton of money, so I’ve been the principal breadwinner all along, and I’m fine with that.)

    We’re not frequent churchgoers, but the one church we do sometimes attend has often had sound problems, etc, which my wife has volunteered to help out with on several occasions. Well, this week, the church unexpectedly reached out to her to ask whether she might consider becoming their new choir director. They haven’t out-and-out-offered it to her–there will be an interview, and the outgoing choir director is apparently big into the drama, so the pastor is bracing for that–but there’s a decent shot that she’ll get it. This would be low but decent full time pay, insurance, etc. Most meaningfully, it would let her really use her talents as a singing coach and a musician, even as a music historian–it’s a potential dream job. And only ten minutes from the house! Obviously, we’re very much hoping she gets the position.

    My wife hasn’t done an actual job interview in more than a decade, and working in churches is going to be different than work in schools or as a private instructor. Also, she has no music degree–her knowledge is self-taught and/or gained through her years of work as a performer–and we’re not sure how big a deal will be made of this. (In all honesty, I’d put the depth and breadth of her knowledge against any music degree holder, any day, but we all know that a lot of hirers don’t look past the technicalities.) As we understand it, churches can be VERY political workplaces. We’re guessing our infrequent attendance to date isn’t a deal-breaker, or else they wouldn’t have even gone as far as this soft approach–but it’s a new land to us both. For anyone out there who has been employed within a church, is there any advice you would offer? Any red flags to look out for? Anything that might shed light on working in churches as opposed to offices, schools, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

    And please, everyone, wish her luck. Fulfilling work would mean so, so much to her right now, and her happiness means a lot to me.

    3. Llellayena*

      I am a church choir member who was in the choir when we interviewed new choir directors. She should expect to have a “practice” rehearsal with the choir so they can get a feel for her style. Likely the hiring committee will ask for the choir’s opinion (if you don’t gel with the choir, it’s not going to work). Also, while it’s not a requirement that you be super religious, expect to lead prayer, know the liturgical needs for the various seasons, and poll the choir for their favorite/familiar hymns and anthems. Find out if they (and the church leadership) like singing in latin vs english and expect that you will be on call for things like cantors that call out, unusually timed masses, meetings with the church leadership. Find out what the music budget is (makes a HUGE difference if you have enough budget for paid accompanists at high holy days (like trumpets/violins) or if you’re struggling just to get the rights to print music.

    4. Camelid coordinator*

      I guess I’d also ask if the position is just choir director or all church music. If the latter your wife would have more to say from her experience and possibly have some ideas of things she’d like to do. I’d ask about the budget (if she wants to start a handbell program would there be funds available? what about conferences and professional development?) and the reporting/supervising arrangement. (Who, how often etc.) I believe our (Episcopal) priest picks most of the hymns and the music director exercises her creativity in other ways. Church work can get awfully personal, which would happen fast since you are already parishioners.

    5. AlabamaAnonymous*

      I have been a paid music leader at several churches and it can be a great! You’ve got some great advice already from the other commenters. I especially second the advice on trying to set expectations, on music styles as well as everything else they have said. And, yes, churches are unfortunately very political workplaces. The biggest problems tend to come when there is someone who donates a lot of money to the church and thinks that gives them authority. Sometimes the church leadership will push back against that appropriately, but lots of times they won’t. So when (:-) she gets hired, just keep an eye out for choir members or others who aren’t in a leadership position but who get their way anyway. Try to make friends with them if possible or at least avoid getting on their bad side.

      Also, try to get a feel for the church planning style. Some churches like to plan way ahead and already know the sermon topics through for the next six months. Others tend to be more last-minute and will want to make changes to the music on Saturday afternoon. She will want to make sure that she is comfortable with whatever planning style this church has.

      Oh and one more thought, she will want to clarify who her supervisor is. In some churches, the music leader reports to the pastor, but I worked in one church where I reported to a lay committee. Or it might end up being a practical combination of both. Working successfully as a church musician requires as much skill in getting along with other people as it does skill in music!

      Sending lots of positive thoughts and vibes her way!

  91. Dee Dee*

    Also related to returning to the office, I had an employee who, upon learning about our plans to return, told me she didn’t think it was feasible to be in the office for more than 5 hours on any given day because she moved during COVID and now her commute would be insane. When I said I wasn’t sure if that would be feasible (I’m not the one setting the rules about being in the office), she said “Well, I can just work in transit.” I’m all for flexible work arrangements–I’m more taken aback by the fact that she apparently bought a house two hours away from the office on the assumption that WFH was permanent without actually, y’know, talking to her employer about if that was likely. I was also a bit annoyed that she just assumed that saying “Yeah, I’ll only be in from 10-3 those days” was a good way to bring that up with her manager…

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Oooh, no. I mean, I’m all for making jobs remote-friendly when that’s possible, but just assuming? No.

    2. CBB*

      Just as likely she assumed that WFH would always be an option, if not with your company, than with some other. Depending on her qualifications, that might not be an unreasonable assumption.

      It sounds like you need to call her bluff and let her find a job better suited to her needs.

    3. Soup of the Day*

      Oof. Yeah, she was definitely in the wrong here. I think a lot of employees probably assumed that because they could work remotely during the pandemic, there would automatically be more flexibility if and when everyone returned to the office, but that is not the case at many companies (for all of the reasons that have been discussed on this site about how remote work was not actually more efficient in some cases!)

      If her job REALLY requires being in the office 8 hours a day, there’s nothing wrong with being firm about it. If she’s an otherwise good employee and you don’t want to lose her work, though, I would say it’s worth trying to work something out. It is very annoying that she made this assumption and is now making it your problem, but as I mentioned, I can see why many people figured they could finagle WFH indefinitely after they’d done it for a while.

    4. Manager of managers with sidecar*

      You’re a bit annoyed, which sounds like the appropriate emotional reaction. I think you let that register and move on. If she’s only productive five hours per day, does her output match your needs? Would she be easy to replace?

      I think many of us, employees and employers, are going to be working this out for a year or two. Some employees will be unreasonable and quit for stupid reasons. Some employers will be unreasonable and fire people they can’t afford to lose for stupid reasons. While we wait for the process to sort out, I’m just going to try to stay calm about it — or at least I’m going to try to LOOK calm.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        But keep in mind that she’s not (presumably) your only employee. If she decides her transit time is going to count as work time, or if she decides she gets to be remote even though it wasn’t offered as an option, how are you going to handle others who want the same perks?

        1. Soup of the Day*

          Yeah, it’s worth considering this, especially if the employee’s work is good but maybe not great. There’s no requirement to give the same perks to every employee, and there are a variety of reasons some employees get perks while others don’t. But – you should definitely expect some envy or resentment from others who might want the same perks and prepare some kind of response. I’ve quit over this exact situation in the past and I’m sure others would, too.

    5. The Ginger Ginger*

      It is certainly not the norm to expect to work during your commute on the regular or to count your commute toward your full time hours. So if that’s the stance your company is landing on, it really should not be surprising to her. It would be a kindness to see if at least a split schedule of WFH is possible with leadership, assuming it would work for her role (despite the fact she just made some huge and annoying assumptions about that). But if they’re not willing, it’s probably time for one of those “these are the terms of the role, are you willing to meet them or should we start working on your transition plan?” coonversations.

  92. Chilipepper Attitude*

    I got a shiny new job!
    And I need a shiny laptop or tote type bag to go with it. Any recommendations? I want professional but with some edgy personality.
    I want it to carry my iPad and occasionally my laptop – both about 12 inches wide. And I want to be able to put a small purse insert in there with the basics and a small lunch bag.
    And finally, no leather, i’m vegan.

    Anyone have suggestions?

    3. Be kind, rewind*

      Hello, fellow edgy vegan! Thanks for asking this: I’ve been considering upgrading my college backpack (nearly 10 years old at this point) to something more professional, so I’m going to lurk in the replies here. :-)

    4. pancakes*

      Congrats! I don’t own one so can’t speak for the quality, but the brand Matt & Nat has nice-looking vegan bags.

      1. Chili pepper Attitude*

        Sadly I checked and Matt and Nat don’t have a good rating in the sustainability community for manufacturing and materials that are not actually sustainable. :(

    5. Chili pepper Attitude*

      I found a new place to find sustainable bags and all kinds of things. I’ll post the link in a reply.

        1. pancakes*

          I like some of these a lot. Will definitely consider next time I need to replace something. Old firehouses are going to be very durable.

  93. Sammy Keyes*

    I’ve been at my current job for less than a year, and due to most people being remote and not having a company wide directory/org chart, I still barely know who anyone is here. Recently, I was asked to plan a fancy party (luxe dinner at a steakhouse) for people who worked on a certain project over the last few years. A few people opted out of the celebration, either due to not being comfortable with in-person events (totally fair!) or not being available. My boss, who is the direct manager of many of these people, asked me to help him think of another way to recognize the people who will not be attending the celebration. And I’m honestly stumped. I feel like….maybe just giving them a monetary bonus would be good? But maybe not great, since the people attending the dinner didn’t get a choice of whether they’d rather receive that, or money?

    This is part of a larger pattern of my manager farming out his more emotional labor-y tasks to me (despite me being very junior and not having any management authority) so I’m a little miffed that he wants me to take on the task of making his employees feel recognized, when I don’t even know most of them or what the company’s norms around this are.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Hmm, gift cards from that same restaurant or, I don’t know, mail order steaks (bad for vegetarians etc tho) – something that is clearly related to the meal, rather than a more desirable thing like bonus cash? I’d be miffed if I agreed to attend some team buildy dinner thing and then found out that skipping would have been worth cash. Sidenote: yes, this sounds annoying. Quite typical in the EA world (even buying the boss’ christmas gifts can fall into this role) but if you’re not explicitly his assistant or the office admin it’s irking.

      1. Sammy Keyes*

        Gift cards/mail order meals could be a good idea, I like that! And yes, ugh – I am technically not an EA, (I’m an operations coordinator) but I do sit at the front desk and regularly am asked to do admin-y stuff so I’m often assumed to be a receptionist (despite the fact that my boss is vocally supportive of me NOT being that). This job has really soured me on all things admin related.

      2. Rusty Shackelford*

        Oooh, I like the idea of GCs to the same restaurant. People who aren’t comfortable with in-person dining could still get takeout.

    2. Kathenus*

      I like the gift card idea but maybe have the steak restaurant, plus a seafood one, plus a vegetarian-heavy one and let them choose which?

      1. Coder von Frankenstein*

        Yeah, that’s what I was about to suggest. Gift certificates to a steakhouse will fall flat with anyone who doesn’t eat meat or just doesn’t like steak.

    3. Sammy Keyes*

      Ahhh yikes and I just found out that the fancy restaurant where the celebration is being held offers takeout, but not delivery. So I wouldn’t want to make folks who aren’t even coming into the office responsible for pickup up their own food with a gift card :(

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Honestly, I wouldn’t have a problem with that. I don’t eat in restaurants yet but I have no problem picking up takeout, since I can leave my mask on.

  94. Venti vanilla latte breve*

    Any thoughts or suggestions for dealing with a manager who wont manage? While my manager is a lovely person, she tends to stick her head in the sand and not actually deal with problems.

    Some background: i joined the company in January. I was hired to handle X responsibilities, which is a full-time, all consuming role. After a reorg, i started reporting to my current manager, who works on an entirely different team. She then started asking me to handle Y responsibilities because they dont have anyone on the team who can do this work. So, I am doing the work of 6 FTEs (yes, I have confirmed this).

    Ive expressed to her that my workload is not managable. Ive started saying no to certain projects and offering solutions on how we could improve the process. But im at my wits end because she wont do anything to help solve it. My year is up in January and I have every intention of finding a different job. The only reason Ive stayed is because i dont want to pay back a signing bonus.

    I should also mention that several people on my broader team have quit within the last six months over her ability to manage, some without even having another job to go to.

      1. Venti vanilla latte breve*

        Thats what i was afraid of. :( im just trying to figure out how to manage it until I can find something else.

        1. Hlao-roo*

          Until you can leave, just be very firm with what you can and cannot do. Your boss needs a llama groomer but you’re already working on six other projects? You can tell her
          (a) I am busy with projects X, Y, and Z so I cannot groom the llamas
          or
          (b) I can do that, but it will push the rice sculpture back to April. Which project is a higher priority?

          If your boss doesn’t find anyone else to groom the llamas, the llamas don’t get groomed. That’s not your problem; it’s her problem.

          I’d also recommend that you stop trying to improve the process. If your boss won’t support you on that, it’ll just be more work and frustration for you.

        2. Tabby Baltimore*

          One of the tactics that’s been mentioned here is to keep your emails as concise as possible, and to ask questions in such a way that your boss only has to respond by saying “yes” (do that) or “no” (don’t do that). Alison wrote in a 2018 article for Slate (titled “Managing Up Is an Art”-I’ll put the URL for it in a reply) that offers this advice: You make it easier for both of you if you say “Here’s the deal with X. I’ve thought about A, B, and C, and I think we should do C because … Does that sound OK to you?”
          We’ve also seen the suggestion here that adding something at the end of the email like “If I haven’t heard from you by [date], I’ll assume X is okay with you, and go ahead and do Y.”
          Could that get you in trouble? Yes, but you may also be overestimating how much your boss cares about making these decisions themselves, and they may be relieved that you are doing this.

        3. The New Wanderer*

          Since January is only 6 weeks away and several of those weeks include holidays, I would be job searching now (if you’re not already). That plus holding firm on what is reasonable for you to do in 40 hrs/week might give you the mental space you need to get through your remaining time there.

          The other AAM answers are: you shouldn’t care more about the work than your boss, and your unsustainable workload is not a problem for your boss until you make it a problem for your boss.

          Hopefully the higher ups will notice this sudden, recent turnover and wake up to what’s going on!

    2. Eden*

      Sounds like you’re doing the right things. You’re saying your workload is too high and following that up with fully saying “no” to some projects. And you’ve already decided to quit. I don’t think you need to worry about helping the company solve the problem. Continue to say “no” to unreasonable demands and then move on.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Definitely agree with everyone. I’ll add, the fact that so many people have quit and your manager’s manager isn’t doing anything suggests the poor management goes up the chain.

      But, yes, push back and make the manager feel the pain of not managing. Don’t work more than one (singular) FTE’s worth of time.

      And start searching now. Good luck!

  95. Rhymetime*

    The short version is that I could use advice on managing my workload while being a caregiver. My employer is supportive; it’s me who needs advice on juggling everything.

    I started a fantastic job a few months ago. Management and peers are great, the work is meaningful, and the organization supports the well-being of employees including having us work remotely during the pandemic. I have a good salary and benefits, and the organization is committed to work-life balance.

    I am also a caregiver for an elderly parent who lives about a half-hour drive away. She lives on her own in a retirement community and has her meals and basic medical care available there, but as her health and her cognitive abilities are declining, she needs more of my time. Fortunately, my work is mostly self-directed and I can work varied hours as long as I attend some standing internal meetings, which has worked out fine. My manager and colleagues are understanding and accommodate flexing my schedule to take her to doctor appointments, talk with her physicians, assist with her financial management, etc.

    I’m getting all my work done, consistently get positive feedback, and my employer is pleased with everything. I recognize how lucky I am to have such a great workplace.

    My challenge is my own stress of getting it all done. I find it hard to block out chunks of time for focused work when I might get a call from my parent asking about something she’s forgotten we already discussed, or have to take her to an appointment, call her physician or respond to an inquiry from them, etc. For those of you in a comparable position where you have things like this come up during business hours and/or have to take care of work outside these times to accommodate caregiving needs–what tips do you have for juggling it all?

    1. RagingADHD*

      Focus is the hardest part of dealing with care responsibilities. I mentioned on the “shared WFH space” answer this week that it’s very difficult for me to do concentrated work with my kids in the house, even if they are fine and don’t need anything, simply because Im braced for the inevitable interruptions.

      An important thing for me is time blocking. Since your mom is in a safe place with her immediate physical needs met, and people around to help in a real emergency, then it’s okay not to respond to these things immediately. You can set times – -maybe 2 or 3 times a day — to check voicemail or text, and turn off your phone in between. Same thing with inquiries from the doctor. They can wait a couple of hours to get the answer.

      If your mom is used to having total access to you at all times, or would become distressed if you don’t answer, you might need to explain or give her a chart if she’s having memory issues. Or make a plan to proactively call her at certain times to check in.

      Good luck! I hope you are able to get some extra support, too. It’s really really hard.

      1. Rhymetime*

        Thank you, this is all helpful! As for support for myself, a friend recently offered to help take my mom to some of her appointments. They have met and like each other, and I’m planning on taking her up on that offer.

    2. retired3*

      Aging mom here. Set up the time you need for your life. Let mom know when it is good to contact you; let her caretakers know. You don’t help anyone by not having boundaries. There are often volunteer services (I used to do this) to take people to appointments, etc.

    3. Owler*

      Set times for you to check in with your mom. For my sister in the same time zone, sister checks in during her commute in. I check in over lunch. All other calls outside of those times during the work day generally go to voicemail, so my mom is slowly adjusting to using those times to reach us. Perhaps if your mom knows she will hear from you at a reliable time, she will ease off of the check-in calls. I also find that written reminders work with my mom, so I will write or print up a calendar for the week and post in in her kitchen.

      More importantly, we found someone to be, in essence, my mom’s medical secretary. This person goes to appointments with my mom (driving her back and forth) and reports back to us. She tracks the follow-ups and has even suggested some things to help make my mom’s life easier. She invoices us for her time on a hourly basis. (Her background was just that she did this for her aging mom, and decided to make a part time job out of it after her mom passed.) Honestly, it’s been awesome to have her help us manage the medical side of my mom’s decline. If you can throw money at the issue, you might consider trying to find someone similar. You can reach out to the senior retirement home or any other senior services to see if they know of anyone who does something similar.

  96. QuickQuestion*

    I got a job offer after a lengthy period of unemployment, and I have a small but urgent question: I currently have a bright, unnatural hair color. I wore my hair up for my zoom interview, and because the base of the hair is my natural color, the interviewers wouldn’t have seen the bright color. The job is in higher ed (my first foray into that field) but is not an “academic” role. It may also be relevant that the position deals strongly with issues of diversity and inclusion. What are the norms here? My manager-to-be seems very open and kind, and part of me wants to just reach out to her and ask her advice. But another part of me worries that this could be wildly out of sync in either direction–either because *obviously* natural hair color is the answer or because *obviously* self-expression would be celebrated rather than stifled. Help!

    I suppose I should also add that I don’t consider my hair color to be an important part of my identity or presentation.

    1. BlueBelle*

      I think it is fine to reach out and I don’t anyone would think you were off base for asking. Good luck!

    2. Alex*

      I think it’s probably fine (I work in higher ed and no one cares what you look like at all) but can you just inquire generally rather than “HEY it’s ok if I keep my rainbow hair, right?”. You can ask “Is there a formal or informal dress code that I should know about?” and if they have rules about that it should be included in that, and it’s a really normal thing to ask about.

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Just ask the manager for the dress code :) When I started lo these many moons ago, nobody told me in advance of my first day that the dress code (which was, at the time, twelve pages long, ye gods) vetoed unnatural hair colors and visible tattoos, so I wandered in with green and purple hair (from the shoulders down) and … well, I think only five of them were VISIBLE, but I have 25 tattoos and a habit of absentmindedly pushing my sleeves up to my elbows, and my manager just about had the vapors. (When I got hired onto another team full time, she was like “I did have to tell them that you’re not very good at keeping your tattoos hidden.” And I was like “Well, Tammy, they’re hiring me to work from home, so I don’t think it matters.”)

      (About two years later, they revamped the dress code down to a single page with no restrictions on hair color at all and tattoos should be work-appropriate if visible, so we’re good now.)

    5. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Alternative solution, if they require natural hair color, (this not a joke): How would you feel a about wearing a wig?

    6. Owler*

      If you aren’t tied to the hair color, you could do what my daughter did when she changed schools and didn’t know what the dress code would be like (she’s 14 and was too timid to ask). We had her top layers dyed her natural color, and then did an undercut dye of the fun color. It lets her be conservative and flashy depending on her hair being up or down, but it’s is also been a good way to grow out a dye she didn’t want to continue.

  97. Choggy*

    As promised here is my posting asking what others recommend as a good grab bag gift (around $25) for our department Holiday party? Our department gets to enjoy a good meal and it’s fun seeing how creative people are with their gift selections. After the incredibly busy year we’ve had, it allows us to just get together for a couple of hours and talk about ANYTHING but work.

    2. Dark Macadamia*

      If you live in an area with a World Market, that’s a really good place to browse for something inexpensive but interesting. One year at my work party there were some decorative giraffes that were very popular.

    3. The Prettiest Curse*

      My favourite ever gift that I got from one of those was a bottle opener in the shape of a Mexican wrestler. I think the company that makes them is called Kikkerland. You could combine with a few bottles of something non-alcoholic or some beer, depending on your office gift exchange rules.

    4. Gracely*

      A friend once did a grab bag of different kinds of tote bags. It was useful, and easy to regift if you already had tote bags.

      I’ve also seen some people do pet toys (my coworkers and I are always talking about our cats and dogs), or a nice hardcover book with an appropriate gift (gluten-free cookbook with gluten-free flour; Lego Star Wars universe book with a set of Lego; a biography/memoir of a tennis player with a container of tennis balls…the next time I get the chance, I’m sorely tempted to give The Martian by Andy Weir with a bag of gourmet fingerling potatoes).

      A lot of it depends on if your coworkers like a lot of the same things, or if everyone is really different.

    6. A Simple Narwhal*

      After years of doing a yankee swap with some very picky family members, I’ve found that the big winners that appeal to a wide range of ages and interests have been:
      -dunkin donuts/starbucks/amazon gift cards, either in a mug or taped to a candy bar so it’s not just a loose card
      -scratch tickets (potentially also attached to something small/silly so it’s not just a loose piece of paper)
      -local sports team paraphernalia (but that’s a huge thing in our area, so it may be less universal)

      You never know what’s going to be the random hit gift that everyone fights for each year, but no one was ever disappointed to end up with one of those things, especially the first two.

    7. Camelid coordinator*

      I really like Retro 51 tornado pens. They cost about $25(depending on color or design) and look & feel very fancy.

    8. Lady Danbury*

      A surprise hit at one office holiday party was mulling spices. They can be combined with red wine (for mulled wine) or apple juice/cider for those who don’t drink alcohol. Maybe combine with other holiday related edible treats or winter kitchen accessories.

  98. Donna Noble*

    I just need to vent about this. I work for a regional support office of a federal agency. Our department has grown incredibly just in the 9 months I have been here. I am part of the admin team that has grown (from two people to twenty) in conjunction with that. In April, a new supervisory position was created that would oversee the team and be the exec assistant to the chief. Well they DO NOT like each other. The previous assistant (one of two) didn’t like her change in power and fussed enough that there was a whole restructure of the org chart and we split into two teams in May. Then a rearranging in August in which the admin assistants report to this new EA instead of the executives they support. And now ANOTHER reorg so that EA will now report to the deputy instead of the chief.
    Because I am still in junior high it seems.

  99. Boring Nickname Rachel*

    I am having an issue w fears about code challenges.

    I need to move on from my current software development job — it pays 20% below the very bottom of my field, and I’m living paycheck to paycheck. I get constant recruiter mail including every one of my “dream” companies but I rarely respond (and if I do I just put off conversations) because I think I’ll blow it if I try to interview. I literally can’t do a timed code challenge and any kind of logic/algorithm based assessment breaks my brain (I often end up crying in frustration; I have a learning disability that impacts this specific type of task). I excel at communicating, writing very tidy code, reading the damn documentation, developing/implementing code standards, commenting, and being really nice to work with. I know these are really valuable skills but they don’t show up in interviews. It’s soul-crushing to do assessments that don’t work for my learning disability! How can I navigate this? Am I allowed to say that I need a different code challenge because of a documented disability? I can basically only do take home projects.

    (Alternatively, is it worth telling my manager that I literally cannot afford to work this job? It was ok until our insurance changed. He doesn’t know all of the specifics but he knows treatment for my disabilities are expensive and very time-consuming. I would gladly stay if I could pay my bills but right now rent is 50% of my paycheck and medical care is the other 50%.)

    Thanks for any advice (on either point).

    1. irene adler*

      I’m finding that interview scheduling often includes a statement about letting them know about any disability accommodations they can provide for you. That’s FOR THE INTERVIEW(S) and/or hiring process and is separate from job accommodations. In the email to schedule the initial interview(s), the candidate is asked to email the HR contact to indicate this accommodation request. This seems to be most frequent with large companies I’ve interviewed for. Doesn’t mean a smaller company won’t do this.

      So, look for this kind of thing. AND, ask if you don’t see it. That’s only fair to you so that you are on a par with those who don’t need the accommodation.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Not everybody does code challenges.
      And not every code challenge is really coding.

      During the interview when I changed jobs a month ago, the “code challenge” was talking through how they might extend an API end-point. All I did on paper was noodle around with the JSON package, and they explicitly told me “don’t worry about punctuation and other syntax stuff”. They wanted to see how I thought; they did not want to see me write a function to do from scratch.

      1. Boring Nickname Rachel*

        Yeah I had a number of those types of challenges when applying for this job and they’re the best kind, because it’s closest thing to how you’d actually do the work. My current job paid $30/hr for the challenge (!) and it was a very very basic take home assignment to debug a broken application (had only one bug) and answer a few questions about it. A lot of the big name companies have pretty intense code challenges though and idk how flexible they are.

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I don’t know anything about asking for accommodations, but I do know that my company does something closer to what Alton Brown’s Evil Twin described, rather than the code challenges you hear about from the big name companies. (I have a rant about code challenges, which I will not go into here.)

      Given that, do you have any professional acquaintances who work at the companies you are interested in? If so, one of them might be able to give you an overview of what their company’s interview process involves. (Not to mention asking if anyone’s company is hiring/about to hire, and possibly if they’re willing to refer you via their company’s internal referral process (depending on your relationship and their process).)

      Given your description of your skills, do you have a GitHub account with some publicly viewable samples of code you’ve written, either for personal projects or for an open source project? A repo with some tidy code and a good readme, and/or well written pull requests to an open source project would definitely impress me from the interviewer side.

    4. curiousLemur*

      Do you have any former co-workers who can vouch for you who work at a company you’re interested in working for?

      1. Boring Nickname Rachel*

        It’s unfortunately a super small team but I do have a lot of friends trying to get referral bonuses, a couple of whom have seen my code!

    5. The Ginger Ginger*

      I’m going to second what was said above. Ask for accommodations during the interview process, and think of ways you can showcase your skills that you can offer in addition to the accommodation requests. For instance, if you have worked on open source code projects in your free time (or anything outside of code that’s proprietary to your employer and is ok to share) share your parts of that code so they can see how you work.

    6. Eden*

      I think this is definitely at least worth asking a recruiting coordinator about. I’ve given coding interviews before that were longer than usual because a candidate requested extra time as an accommodation (they didn’t disclose what for or give a doctor’s note or anything afaik, we just granted it). Sounds like that isn’t exactly what you’re looking for, but that accommodation was granted with 0 trouble, I am sure some places would be willing to work with you on what you need. It would probably be easier if you had some suggestions ready to go.

      Good luck! Coding challenges really are a weird and problematic part of the interview process. They don’t really translate to anything we do on the job, and yet, I am glad we do at least some form of them because sometimes they do show a candidate is mismatched for the role. But your situation shows yet another flaw with the current approach. I wish we had a better standard but hopefully you can at least advocate to make your own experience better.

    7. Coder von Frankenstein*

      “I excel at communicating, writing very tidy code, reading the damn documentation, developing/implementing code standards, commenting, and being really nice to work with.”

      All I can say is, I want more coworkers like you. :)

      And this really is a good time to look. I know the leadership in my department is running around with their hair on fire trying to figure out how to retain and attract talent in this job market. I don’t think anyone here would blink twice if you laid out the situation and asked for a take-home challenge. I have to assume it’s similar in a lot of places.

    8. RagingADHD*

      I don’t know anything about code, but if your insurance changed that much then you have lost a chunk of your compensation package. It would be completely in-bounds to talk to your manager about the fact that your compensation was slashed to untenable levels by the benefits changes, and you won’t be able to stay unless he can bring it back up closer to where it was. The rational thing for the company to do would be to pay you more to make up the difference.

      I mean, they likely won’t, since companies slash insurance to save money. But it’s a reasonable thing to ask about.

  100. Anxious Auditor*

    I’ve been having an issue with one of my managers, and I’m not sure how to confront it. For context, he is also one of few people in my office who works fully remote, but I haven’t had issues with my other remote coworkers like this.

    Long story short, he’s not the best at communication and often comes off as dismissive/passive agressive over messaged and emails, to the point where he’s made me cry four times in the past year. One example is him sending me screenshots of errors I’ve made, errors are expected in my industry, with no comments attached to them besides “Be Better”.

    The issue is, I know he’s not intentionally being a jerk, which makes it much harder to bring it up to another manager. For instance, on a call or video meeting, he’s much nicer, just awkward. In addition, its very much a pattern of behavior that he has with everyone, and there’s not really one thing that I can nail down that he’s said that was technically inappropriate.

    I do have a manager that I work with more closely that I plan on telling about the issues, but I’m not sure on what would be the best way to approach it. Any and all scripts would be appreciated!

    1. irene adler*

      What is it that you want from this manager to whom you wish to tell about your issues?
      Advice?
      Commiseration?
      Have them step in and correct or educate Bad Communication Manager?

      1. Anxious Auditor*

        Mostly your last bullet point! But I don’t know how to constructively manage that conversation, especially since I don’t want anyone to keep me off of projects because I’m “too emotional”. For more context, I’m a cis woman and both of these managers are cis men.

        1. irene adler*

          Thank you for the clarification.
          With the narrative you provided about correcting errors, it seems like you are getting a lack of constructive feedback. The “be better” statement lacks any kind of guide or structure to what you need to do to be “better.”

          You might ask this manager to impart to Bad Communication Manager that he is not providing adequate guidance on what you need to do to “be better.” Providing constructive suggestions or a guide would help you to achieve what is needed. As things stand, you have been unable to convey this notion to Bad Communication Manager and you need someone else to step in and explain this to him.

          (Keep it results-based. As hurtful as Bad Communication Manager has been, it’s best not to talk too much about the emotions aspect as that can get dismissed quickly.)

          1. Anxious Auditor*

            That’s helpful! Thanks! I would like to approach the issue of his lack of emotional awareness, because most if not all of the staff at my level actively avoid working with him due to his demeanor. I’m also not the only person he has made cry, he’s even made our interns upset before. Do you have any suggestions on how to handle that without making it sound like a “me” problem?

            1. RagingADHD*

              Do not try to correct the demeanor or emotional awareness of someone higher on the food chain. For one thing, you don’t have the standing to do that. For another…it gets into very dicey territory with diversity.

              Talk about his actions, and about your work needs – like specific guidance or constructive feedback, as irene adler mentioned. From a work perspective, the issue with his feedback was that it is not helpful or useful, and that is all you should talk about. By showing it to the other manager, they can see for themselves what you’re dealing with.

              BTW, are you absolutely sure he’s not being a jerk on purpose? Because that’s seriously jerk-ish. There are plenty of jerks and bullies who are awkward and too cowardly to bully people in person, but perfectly happy to cut loose on email/chat.

              TBH, if he really isn’t being a jerk on purpose, (or actually, even if he is) then probably the best way to handle nonsense like this would be to reply back to him saying something like, “I am not sure how to apply this feedback. Could we get on a call to discuss any process changes you’d like to see, or can you give me any specific guidance to improve accuracy?”

  101. Mitsuko*

    My lovely kind supervisor would like to send everybody advent chocolates following the tradition in our department. Most of us are non-religious and this is clearly intended as a secular thing, but one employee is a practicing Muslim. They haven’t said anything to my knowledge, and they have lived in the West all their lives so maybe they are totally used to this kind of thing and don’t care (I myself am from another country, I’m not religious so it doesn’t bother me). I am somehow uncomfortable for their sakes. I am at the same level as the Muslim person so should I not say anything? I sort of feel like they might not want to be the one person to ask to stop chocolates for their sake, and maybe I’m better positioned to intervene. But I feel embarrassed about asking them too (because they are obviously trying to be low key about their religion, but the way they dress and fasting at Ramadan and everything makes it clear they are observant).

    1. Boring Nickname Rachel*

      I would say this is their thing to navigate and attempting to make a choice on their behalf (or draw extra attention to it) would likely read as patronizing or Othering, despite good intentions.

      I’m Jewish and would be a bit irritated to receive a Christian present but I would never want to make a whole thing out of it. People who don’t celebrate Christmas are very, very used to this kind of thing. I don’t love it happening at work but in the grand scheme of things it’s a kind, if a bit ignorant, gesture.

    2. fueled by coffee*

      Can they just send chocolates that are not advent related? Like, a box of Ghirardelli or something?

      I’m seconding Boring Nickname Rachel that as a non-Christian I wouldn’t make a big deal out of this (it’s not the same, as, say, sending a bottle of wine to everyone when one employee is Muslim), but it would irritate me.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        +1

        No need for it to be tied to any holiday, when the intent is as a “thanks for being a great team member!”

    3. CBB*

      If you’re calling them “Advent chocolates” or presenting them as such, then they’re clearly not “intended as a secular thing.” I don’t know many non-Christians who celebrate Advent, or even know what it is.

      Just make it a normal box of chocolates rather than Advent chocolates.

      1. Dark Macadamia*

        +1 Advent is religious. Even “secular” Advent calendars are intended as a countdown to Christmas. I don’t think you should speak on behalf of your Muslim coworker, but your company should just do a nice gift set of chocolates that aren’t packaged as an Advent countdown.

        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          Agreed! Then my mind started wandering to thoughts of the Christian sects that fast during Advent or are Orthodox. (If they include dates, they’ll be wrong.)

          I love the idea of Advent chocolate, but not in the workplace. Just give regular “thanks for your hard work in the past year” chocolate.

    4. Malika*

      Our yearly gift bag is always presented in december as a year-end present to thank our colleagues for their great work throughout the year. You can find lots of festive presents, including chocolate, that are fancy but not obviously Xmassy. It works, as no one feels weird about getting a present for a celebration that has nothing to do with their spiritual beliefs or lack thereof. While I think it’ s fine to ask your Muslim co-worker how they feel about getting the advent chocolate, I would advise to not assume their opinion on it. My ex was Jewish but hearted Xmas festivities, I think he would have would have accepted the advent chocolate as a thoughtful gift, rather than an insult to his religion.

  102. GIF questions*

    I really want to hear from some other folks about using GIFs at work.

    Do you only use them when you know what it’s from? If you see a gif that is problematic, do you have a way to report/get it removed from the default? Would you tell someone if they used one that was problematic?

    Does your team have any gif short hand they use?

    Also looking for recommended or favorite ones.

    1. Jane of all Trades*

      I use them, but only with a few people who I have long standing relationships with (I work in a conservative industry, and would never send them to a boss or a client).
      I believe mine are very innocuous (a crying child, and a penguin that slips and falls are my go to – I’ll look and try to link them) and I would never use one that I thought could give offense. However, I would 100% want to know if what I sent was offensive. How you provide that feedback depends on context. If the gif is obviously offensive (based on race, creed, gender, disability and so on) you could flag it to your supervisor or HR. If it’s offensive but somebody could have misunderstood the context, you could let them know directly if that makes sense based on your relationship!

    2. Sparkleboots*

      So my understanding of how the gif function works in Microsoft Teams (and probably in most of these technologies) is that they are pulling them live from the internet, so I don’t think there is really a way to get a gif removed, because it’s just searching what’s out there at the moment (I have noticed that when my network is cut off, the gif feature does not work). So if someone used a gif that was problematic, I would shoot them a quick message and kindly explain why it’s problematic. I have done that before, and all the people I work with have been really appreciative because they are decent people and just really didn’t know. Then they will delete their post with the offending gif. Of course you always run the risk of someone not responding in a good way, but that shouldn’t stop you from saying something anyway.

      As for which gifs I use – I work in IT and we love our gifs. We use Teams, and gifs get thrown about often, but it depends on the “seriousness” of the meeting. Department wide biweekly catch up meeting? Gifs. President of the university addressing IT? No gifs. Project planning meeting? Probably no gifs. Working session with just techs? Gifs.

      I like to use one that really capture my expression, and most of the Dan Levy gifs fit that requirement.

      1. GIF questions*

        I know in teams at least you can have some kind of ….ratings? Our teams giphy doesn’t include explicit gifs for instance. I haven’t seen anything I’d report to our team as explicit and should be removed but I think that’s the path I’d use to get it removed from the subset we have, but I’m not sure if that’s managed by giphy or our it team. I guess it would likely be giphy.

        I’ve been thinking because a few years ago in a nonwork chat I had to explain to someone why the pepe gif they were using was problematic and wondering if others have had that come up at work. I keep thinking someone is going to use something they don’t know and it’s going to end up with that.

        I like your layout of which meetings to use gifs in and which ones not so much. Though it depends on our project planning meetings, about half of them have gifs, otherwise I’m pretty much in line with you. Also been using a lot of Dan Levy, and some other Shitt’s Creek ones.

        1. SparkleBoots*

          I didn’t realize you could rate the gifs, I will have to look for that! I haven’t encountered any explicit gifs either, most of the time they are pretty harmless. But like NewBoss2016 said below, gotta watch til the end! I skipped that a few times and sent some really weird gifs to people, but luckily it was private chats.

          John Cena dressed as a teen girl going “EWWW!” is also one of my favorites, mostly because his giant muscle-ly arms are just so funny looking juxtaposed with his teen girl costume.

    4. NewBoss2016*

      In my company they are occasionally used in various group chats as way to lighten things up. I will say that as a manager I once sent a gif to one of my teams, but evidently missed the very end of the loop and there was a negative political image at the end. I think it was a clip of a guy getting blasted by a water hose (which was weirdly related to the topic at hand), but right after that it showed a poster blaming that on a political candidate. I was so embarrassed that I sent that out. I now make sure I watch the whole “reel” a few times to make sure nothing got snuck in before I use one.

      1. GIF questions*

        This is an excellent reminder, I don’t usually watch them to the end before I send so I’ll be a little more cautious about that!

  103. Wondering*

    AAM commentariat!
    Have you ever found yourself in a hole you dug for yourself, professionally? What was it, and with the benefit of hindsight, did you handle it the right way, or what would you change?
    I’ll start. half a year ago I changed positions to work with a prior supervisor that I used work well with, intending to help them to build a niche department in a larger department. The work is ok, the company is ok, pay is great, and my supervisor is great. I recently realized though that I have become emotionally dependent on that supervisor (it probably goes both ways) which is not long term sustainable. I’m not sure how to walk this one back (our industry remains wfh and with the increased isolation it is easier to be depending on key contacts).

    2. AnonymousADD*

      Yes, in the middle of one now… I had overlapping duties with an underperforming coworker who dragged me down. I eventually gave up working as hard. It was demotivating to have my projects stall because I needed something from them and never got it, or got extra work of theirs unexpectedly dumped on me, after they missed a deadline.

      They were finally let go recently. My boss just had a serious warning conversation with me about my own slacking. I’m pretty freaked out since I’ve never been formally disciplined at work before.

      On the plus side, I was a solid performer before, and my boss gave me some encouragement. I don’t think I’m in as bad of a hole as ex coworker but still unsettled. I wish I’d hadn’t let my own slacking go so long.

    3. allathian*

      For a time with a previous manager, I was overly invested in owning my work product. This meant that I nearly burned out when we were overloaded with work for a big project, and I didn’t want to let any of my normal work go to anyone else, either. This was mainly a problem because we have a partnership with a company to outsource stuff when our team is overloaded, I just didn’t want to use them, because the quality of their work didn’t quite match my expectations, although our internal clients were happy enough with it. Not only that, but my then-manager was a very empathetic person who got stressed out by having to make decisions her reports didn’t like. She was also treating me more as a friend than anything else, and I let her do that. In the end, this meant that when she finally had to intervene and manage me, I refused to accept her feedback, because I didn’t respect her as my manager. I got put on a PIP, and if I’d continued I might have been managed out eventually (and it’s very hard to fire people here, especially in the public sector). That incident soured my relationship with the former manager completely, even when I apologized sincerely and showed her that I was willing and able to implement her feedback and instructions professionally, and it was honestly a relief when she decided to get out of management. Our relationship never recovered, she went to another government agency to work on a project while still being employed by us, before returning to work on a final project before retiring. I was on summer vacation for her virtual retirement party. If I’d been on good terms with her, I might’ve attended anyway, but my vacation gave me the perfect excuse not to.

      The PIP involved a conflict resolution process, where both my then-manager and I went to counseling sessions to get to the bottom of this. First we did separate sessions, and then a joint reconciliation session. It was tough for both of us, but it worked, although I must admit I’m really glad that she didn’t remain my manager for very long after that. After the process concluded, I had more counseling on our EAP. The PIP was also scary for me, because I’d never been formally disciplined at work before, and I’m determined to prevent it happening again.

      That experience taught me never to be anything other than on professional but hopefully friendly terms with my managers. I certainly won’t make the same mistake of allowing myself to become the confidante of a manager again.

  104. COL Raises*

    Thoughts on cost of living raises in a year when the cost of living has raised way more than a typical year?

    I’ve been with my employer for 5ish years now, and every year they give hourly employees a 3% cost of living raise. They don’t regularly do performance reviews or merit based raises (although a couple times I’ve been proactive about it and gotten slightly higher raises for myself). I appreciate that annual COL raises aren’t offered everywhere, not turning my nose up at it at all, but I’m very aware that the cost of groceries, gas, heating a home and other basic utilities have been skyrocketing. I can’t help thinking that this year should be more than the usual 3% raise.

    1. NervousNellie*

      With the Great Resignation in swing, you’d think they’d be doing a lot of retention activities, but I think the job market has favored business for so long that some managers really haven’t got a clue. The entire time they’ve been managers the job market has, on some level, made their lives easier.

      I wonder if you can possibly say something about that to your boss in a roundabout fashion. “I really like working with this particular team, but I’m worried that the great resignation will mean changes. Has management done any brainstorming about retention activities? It’s been on my mind a lot and I’d like to contribute.”

    2. CBB*

      Be careful what you ask for. If you want your COL raise to be tied to average US inflation, you may find it lower than 3% most years.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        ….COL is generally determined by the average of the CPI-W. Not necessarily exactly what it is year-to-year, but what a standard annual increase will average out to over x number of years. That is already what it is. A burst of inflation like we’re seeing is not factored into that calculation and it makes total sense to do a higher COL adjustment during high inflation.

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          The 10 year break-even inflation rate right now is 2.7% which is why most places that do COL you’ve seen 3% for awhile.

  105. Andrew*

    What’s a reputable website for determining how much cost of living has increased in your area? We don’t give cost of living adjustments, only merit raises, but I have employees complaining about us not giving them raises that match COLA. However, I think these employees have bad information, and I want to have good information.

    1. COL Raises*

      How funny that our comments are side by side! I’d be interested if there’s a resource like that but for totally opposite reasons. :-P

    2. Anony-Nony*

      I’m going to be frank here–a company that never offers COLA is likely already underpaying its employees. If you are not keeping up with the rate of inflation then your employees lose purchasing power meaning even though they are making the same wage, they are still becoming poorer.

      Most areas in the US have seen huge rises in housing prices the past few years and recently due to supply chain issues many food and household items have shown rising prices too. Inflation is rising which means consumer purchasing power is less.

      A good place to look for data is the consumer price index.
      https://www.bls.gov/regions/subjects/consumer-price-indexes.htm
      There is a lot of information here but some is from a regional level and some is from a Metro area level. I don’t know where you are, but here are some of the stats from different areas across the country:
      * Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington report for October 2021. Prices are up 1 percent over the past two months and 5.6 percent over the past year.
      * South region 1 percent rise over the month; 6.6 percent past year.
      * Atlanta – Sandy Springs – Roswell – prices up 7.9% over the year
      * Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington – up 1.1% past 2 months, 5.4% over the year
      * West region .8 percent up over the past month, 6% over the past year

  106. Baby shower etiquette*

    This is a really minor thing, but I genuinely want to do the nice thing.

    I was recently given a virtual baby shower by my team. We are a distributed team from before COVID – whether we work from home or an office, we’re based out of offices around the country. The shower was held over Teams and gifts were coordinated by my supervisor and sent to my house.

    The gifts were really generous and I want to be properly grateful. What would you recommend as the best way to send thank you cards? To everyone individually, at the office? (Some people won’t receive theirs for a long time because they primarily work from home.) To the coordinator, to share on our discussion forum? A thank you note on the discussion forum? Individual emails plus a public note to everyone?

    We haven’t had a virtual celebration because in the past, the few retirements were at headquarters and they just had a small gathering locally. We also didn’t have a good videoconferencing system before the pandemic (antiquated government IT!). So I’ve never attended a similar celebration on this team.

    1. Dark Macadamia*

      You should do individual thank yous directly to the givers but since the party was virtual I think an email is fine rather than trying to mail or hand out physical ones (you could do a card/note for people you see regularly in person, but I don’t think anyone will be offended if you do email for everyone)

      1. Blue Eagle*

        I agree with individual emails to everyone, but as a first thing I’d put out a public thank you to everyone.

  107. Rachel Q*

    I have an upcoming meeting with my manager to discuss where I want to go with my career. I would really like to move up to a more senior position and feel I’m ready. I plan to mention this, as well as the reasons I think I’m qualified, but is there a diplomatic way for me to get across that I will not be satisfied to stay in my current role for much longer? I want to get across how important is to me that I move up soon

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      You probably know this but I’d bring specific examples of things I’ve done that are higher-level than my current role or show how much I’ve grown (like, “I’m now the point person on the entire llama conference” and “I select an manage all the llama grooming vendors without needing oversight from management”) and practice saying these things out loud. It sounds kind of dumb but I literally have to practice spitting the words out, first to myself out loud in the mirror, then roleplaying with a friend. I also make a deal with myself that, whatever else happens, I will physically say the words I have planned. Everything else is kind of beyond your control and my mind can go a bit blank when I’m stressed so it’s easy to backpedel and not end up saying it if I’m not careful.

    2. DistantAudacity*

      Also maybe use words like “it’s important to me” and “continue on in my career” and “next role”.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      The best way to show you’re serious about being promoted is to be prepared to move on if they say no or wait longer. I raised the issue of promotion every six months for close to 4 years (I had 5 managers during this time so it wasn’t the same person hearing this conversation). Every manager until the end said they’d consider it and revisit it in six months. I didn’t push back at the time because my hopes were that the revisit conversation would happen, but instead there would be a reorg and I would get a new manager.

      A year ago I started to job hunt and got a verbal offer, which I conveyed to my last manager along with what it would take to keep me, a kind of pre-emptive counter offer. There was actually never a question about whether I was qualified for that promotion (I had been for years), just whether someone with decision making authority would go through the work of making it happen. When it came out that I would probably have to wait another year or two, I took the outside offer and left.

    1. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

      I think this is probably very regional- and industry-specific. Also, possibly, outfit specific. I would think that in most areas, cowboy boots with jeans would be semi-okay in a casual office, but YMMV.

      I work in education in the American South and cowboy boots would be somewhat accepted (at my specific institution), although moreso if worn by men (yay, sexism). They would not be considered at all appropriate in a client or board meeting (although some state legislators always wear cowboy boots).

    2. SparkleBoots*

      How casual is the office? I live in Texas and work at a state university, so I would say at my workplace, no one would bat an eye, even if you were wearing them with a suit. But it will greatly depend on the office culture in question. I think for most casual offices, they’d probably be fine, as long as they are clean and well-kept, but I would say that for any other type of footwear.

      For reference, I wear my favorite pair of black glitter Doc Martens almost every day. I’ve had many compliments on them, including from my VP. But I know for SURE they would be “out of line” at my last job.

      1. BrightFire*

        Thanks! I live in Idaho. Half of our staff is construction and half is engineering. I’m in HR and wore cowboy boots today. No one has said anything and I saw a gal in marketing wearing cowboy boots today too. :) I think I’m good.

  109. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

    Not so much a question, as a thank you and a “holy cow”. I am so grateful to the commentariat for their advice a few weeks ago on how to prepare myself for using a motorized scooter at a conference. Turns out a lot of my anxiety about how my coworkers would perceive it was unnecessary (neither commented on it), but I didn’t quite prepare myself for how it felt to become invisible to strangers while using a mobility device. I was in a wheelchair many years ago, but I guess I downplayed to myself how frustrating it was not to be noticed/interacted with while in a seated position at receptions. I still got in some valuable networking, but it was more challenging than I anticipated.

    We did have some issues with HR and other internal policies about reimbursement, but those seem to be better now after some very dramatic exchanges between departments. I don’t think anyone is holding the issues against me. . . at least not consciously. Boss has begun vaguely talking about me being an expensive employee due to my new ADA-protected status (in more roundabout terms). But, bright side, maybe that will make it easier to convince him not to send me for travel that other people can do just as easily.

    I’m really focusing on using my personal time for my freelance editing work (I have 2 consistent clients, but am starting to get more word-of-mouth referals!) and my own writing as a way to build up my savings to prepare for transitioning into a new job. Or, hey, if I can grow my editing business enough I would love to do that full-time.

    1. WellRed*

      Uh, why is your company holding ANY issues against you? And your bosses comment about you being expensive? That’s inappropriate and should be documented just in case. Maybe he thought he was just making an awkward joke but this is what leads to people being not hired or out of a job.

      1. Ms. Hagrid Frizzle*

        The thing with the reimbursement was a communication breakdown, and none of us handled it exactly “right” so theoretically someone could assign me blame, although that doesn’t seem to be what’s happening.

        And yeah, Boss is absolutely serious about the expense concern (although our institution supposedly has cash to burn!?) but did attempt to make a horrifically awkward and offensive joke about me being like Stephen Hawking. Another commenter last week advised me that all states have advocacy agencies and I’m working on connecting with some resources through them to protect myself.

  110. Gift Shorted*

    I had a baby this year and my office, which normally gives new parents a pretty generous baby gift in the $300-$400, never gave me a gift. Not shocking since I’m the one who usually does the legwork to find a person’s registry, get approval and order it, etc.
    Is there a tactful way to bring this to someone’s attention? I know it’s not the end of the world but I’m feeling pretty shorted.

    1. Lady_Lessa*

      No ideas, but I know how you feel.

      Many, many years ago a co-worker’s mother died and we who worked with him went to the funeral and I think that the company even sent flowers. Relatively soon after that, my (step)mother died, and the company didn’t do anything. My boss was good about extra time off because I had to go 1/2 across the country and then close up and sell her house.

    2. WellRed*

      The value of the gift is enough that I would mention it. You could even acknowledge that it feels weird to bring it up.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Agreed. Since you’re the organizer, who do you go to that approves the expense? Go to them and ask them to help out.

    4. Soup of the Day*

      Since they do this for everyone else, I think you can frame the ask as making sure it didn’t get lost: “I feel awkward bringing this up, but I wanted to mention that I didn’t receive a baby gift after having Sarah. I thought I’d bring it up just in case something was sent but got lost in the mail.” It IS possible that they thought they sent you something, and that maybe it DID get lost in the mail, so it’s worth checking!

    5. The New Wanderer*

      If they rely on you to take care of this sort of thing, would it be out of line for you to submit the order approval to get yourself something nice? That might be enough of a prompt to generate a swift response.

      Or, if there is someone else who’s ever done the gift arrangement, ask them or your manager directly. It sounds like it’s a standard practice and someone just needs a nudge, so I don’t think it’s out of line to just ask for order approval (if you want) or ask a proxy to stand in for you.

      “Since I’ve typically been the one to organize our team’s new baby gift for new parents, I feel awkward making the order for myself so I’m wondering if someone could organize this for me?”

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        If they rely on you to take care of this sort of thing, would it be out of line for you to submit the order approval to get yourself something nice?

        That was my first thought, too.

  111. Old Fezziwig*

    I’ve at a bit of an inflection point in my career, and I’m having trouble figuring out how to approach it. I’m not an attorney, but a large part of my job is handling contract drafting and negotiations. I’ve been doing it for 15 years and have noticed that (1) more and more of my peers at other institutions are attorneys and expect to be working with other attorneys, and (2) jobs that would be the next step in my career are increasingly being filled by people with JDs or PhDs and being advertised as requiring a JD or PhD. I’ll be at least 47 before I finish a JD at this point and would be doing it while working a full-time day job. How have folks dealt with night school while working full-time? How has it worked out (or not)? Philosophically, I’m not thrilled with the idea of participating in some sort of credentials arm race, but I don’t see a way to move up without the degree. I’d be grateful for any thoughts or advice.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Any chance this is federal government work? If so, there are non-degreed coursework & certifications you can take that are more focused, quicker, and far less expensive than a JD. I’ve been out of that world for a while, so I can’t recommend anything specific, but you should be able to talk to your non-attorney peers and your management to get ideas.

      1. Old Fezziwig*

        It’s not, but it’s adjacent to it. I do have credentials for my work, and I’ve looked at credentials for federal contracting, but my impression last time was that they were narrower than would be useful. But I’ll take another look with fresh eyes — thanks!

    2. Purple Penguin*

      If you think that you must get an advanced degree, instead of a JD, consider a Master of Laws or similar graduate level legal training that is both less time and cheaper (for non-lawyers, sometimes the degree isn’t actually called a Master of Laws, depending on the country where there degree is offered. The Australian National University has LLMs for non-lawyers, for example, whereas Georgetown University has a Master of Law & Technology.).

  112. Stuck*

    I’m feeling underutilized at work. I’ve spoken to my supervisors about my concerns and have been brushed aside. People seem to like working with me based on past feedback, but I don’t know what to do!

    1. BLT*

      In my office when people mess up or do sub-par work one too many times, the work being sent their way dries up pretty quickly. People would rather avoid the awkward conversation and extra effort to correct issues, and instead just send it to top performers rather than deal with someone who does crappy work. Not saying that’s your situation, but something to consider– particularly if other people in your same role seem consistently busy. Maybe check in with a trusted coworker rather than a supervisor to see if they have more honest input. (I realize this is textbook bad management, but it’s been pretty common in my experience- hopefully that’s not the case for you!)

    2. irene adler*

      You might have to scare up projects on your own. Or, volunteer to work on projects, committees and the like that you find out about ‘through the grapevine’ and not via your supervisor.
      Not suggesting that you go behind supervisor’s back. Let supervisor know you want to work on x project or committee that needs some hands.

    3. Girasol*

      Something you might try is to find someone in your group who’s overloaded, explain your predicament, and ask if there’s any work that you might take off their plate. Then go ask the manager if it can be reassigned to you.

  113. Overeducated*

    Y’all, I have a kid in day care and my life for the past month and half has been nonstop unplanned sick leave (kid picks up a virus, gets better, but is out of care for longer than normal because every case requires department of health approval to return), and now the day care has closed for COVID cases and my kid is vomiting. This is BAD. My boss and team say the right, understanding things, and have never denied or questioned my need for time off, and my spouse is a more than equal partner (due to having a job where nobody tracks hours), but the fact is I haven’t put in my full 40 hours in more than one of the last six weeks, and now won’t be able to for the next two at least. Please, please tell me my career will survive this year!

    1. BlueBelle*

      I don’t have any real advice just wanted to say my heart goes out to you and all the parents and caregivers. I hope hope hope that women, who are disproportionately taking time off from work and doing things like you described aren’t punished by set backs in their career.
      I hope that your company is a decent company and holding true.

    2. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      You’re ok. They’re telling you that it’s ok.

      Keep up your efforts to be productive when you’re in the office, maybe make plans for any possible work from home days/projects, and hang in there. This is part of hiring people who are human, and during a pandemic, no less.

    3. Elanor*

      You will survive! This year is kicking you in the teeth, and you’ve got people around you that love and support you. Take that love and support (that they want to give you!), and don’t feel guilty. So many of us are struggling with various pandemic-related fallout, it’s not unusual that you haven’t done a full 40 hours! Keep going, do what you can to preserve your sanity, and don’t beat yourself up (seriously!).
      It will get better!

      From, Someone Who’s Kid Just Started Kindergarten (and I Rediscovered Sanity!)

    4. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      For what it’s worth, if my colleague or employee had this going on, my thought would be, “That sucks, I hope they make it through this soon!”

      I wouldn’t hold it against you. Heck, I might even donate some sick time if you need extra (I’ve done that before).

    5. Cheezmouser*

      Mom of two kids ages 5 and 2 here. Are you able to work from home? That makes it a lot easier to at least check email and do calls/meetings during the day and then do focus work at night after the kids are asleep. I haven’t put in 40 hours a week consistently since the start of the pandemic. Some days I only got 5-6 hours in. This week my little one was home from daycare sick so I took meetings with her on my lap. I’m still the top performer on my team. Just do the best you can in the time you have available to work. If you’re badass, you’ll still be badass even working reduced hours. It’s about quality, not (just) quantity.

      Caveat is of course if you’re a struggling performer then this might make matters worse. But if you are stellar then you’ve likely built up enough credit and reputation to shield you.

  114. Death of a Salesperson*

    So, I am in a new kind of role for me that’s very metrics-based. Let’s say it’s sales. So suddenly it’s easy to see how many sales I brought in for the year and that will define how good I am at my job. I’m not at all used to being evaluated in this way as I used to be in program management. I thought I was doing pretty good for my first year during a pandemic because I brought in about 40K more than my paycheck. We’re a small org and the sales I do are just one part of our income so that seems ok to me. However, I get the feeling they were really hoping for a miracle like I, in my first year in a new type of role during a pandemic, was going to bring in a million dollars and save the company. Did I mention I’m only part time? I have been trying to shift the discussion to how many sales visits I have made, which is something that’s within my control, because I really can’t force people to value our product just on the sheer basis of my charisma. But now I’m really anxious that not getting a miracle sale from someone who never expressed interest in our product is going to be seen as a failure (I don’t know why the eight other full time people aren’t working on income if this is really so critical). Also I’ve tried to suggest ways to help with other income but they’re pretty fixated on this type of sale being the way forward. I think I should start job searching and plan to be gone within a year so I can get out before sh*t hits the fan if I don’t make us a million dollars. Is it worth it even trying to say anything to my boss or should I just start looking? I’m right around the one year mark.

    1. Death of a Salesperson*

      1. I think they would be shocked and dismayed if I left after 1.5 years, but it’s only a part time role with no benefits so they can’t be *that* surprised right?
      2. This would free them up to contract with some kind of superstar who can maybe bring them this amazing sale they’re apparently dreaming of, but can’t really provide support or assistance to me in getting for them other than what I’m already doing, and save face for me in not having to admit that maybe I can’t hack a sales job.
      3. I was hoping they’d see the benefit of me handling this type of sales as also being the work I’m taking off the plate of the staff that used to have to do this in addition to their other jobs – thus freeing those people up to create new products, create better revenue streams etc – but I don’t see much evidence that they feel this way. I think they’re just looking at a budget shortfall and feeling that this is my fault for not getting more sales.
      4. My gut tells me that if I maximize the number of sales calls I’m making, it would eventually result in the kind of big sale they’re looking for – but not on any predictable schedule (like, could be now or three years from now) and honestly I don’t see one sale solving all their problems anyway. The kind of sales I do wouldn’t usually help with operational costs as much as other income streams (because we have to produce specialized products if I make these sales, with capacity we may not have fully in-house) – but again, they seem pretty fixated on my part.

    2. NervousNellie*

      So, 40K isn’t a lot in my line of business, but let’s say it’s as much as your salary.

      Does 40k cover the cost of delivering on the sales you made? For example, if you are making chocolate teapots, does 40k cover the costs related to manufacturing the teapot, shipping the teapots, providing customer support of those teapots? Profit SHOULD be built in, but it’s necessary that the profit from the sales you’ve made covers the cost of employing you (which is higher than just your salary in most cases) and delivering on the sale.

      This is why sales is just utterly tough.

      1. Death of a Salesperson*

        Yes, it’s about double what they pay me. I’m sort of iffy on the idea that their product expenses are also my responsibility out of the profit I’m already bringing in. Hmm. Yes, perhaps I’m just not cut out for this; that is the answer I’m looking for I think. I need to job search.

    3. PollyQ*

      First, I think you’re gonna be SOL if you try to get them to measure your sales calls rather than sales dollars, because it’s your job to get people to actually buy the product using your charisma and whatnot. Second, I’m a little surprised they haven’t given you a hard target of what they expect you to do in a year, or a quarter. I can’t tell if this miracle million dollar sale is actually something they want or if that’s something that’s only in your head. So my advice is to actually have the conversation with your boss about what their real-dollar expectations are. It’s possible you’re doing great! But you do need to know.

  115. Questioner*

    I interviewed for a job in a government agency recently (Role A), and feel good about my chances of receiving an offer. I was also offered the opportunity to interview for a related position (Role B) in the same department in this agency. These two roles work very closely together.

    However, there are some things that give me pause about accepting, if I do receive an offer: I spoke to the someone who until recently had the Role B, and they cautioned me that the workload for Role B is very high because the department is severely understaffed. (For various reasons, this can’t change anytime soon, if ever.) They also said that it was very stressful because of the high demand, and that ideally the department staff would be tripled. It’s currently like 3-4 people total.

    In light of that, I didn’t end up applying for Role B. (Although I told the interviewers I would.) But I’m still being considered for Role A, and that one seems to have less in the way of the issues Role B has. But it’s still the same department, which means that I’m concerned there might be the same problems.

    This would be a yearlong contract, so the stakes aren’t the highest. But until six months ago, I had a job functionally identical to Role B in a professional services firm that was incredibly high stress and caused me actual health problems as a result, and I’m really leery of ending up back in a similar situation. If offered Role A, should I still take it? I should find out in a few weeks whether I have an offer, and I don’t have any other likely-looking offers at the moment.

    Also, should I formally tell the hiring manager that I won’t be applying for Role B, even though I told them I would? Or should I just let it be self-evident?

    1. ferrina*

      It it’s something that the hiring manager would notice, I guess you could reach out and say “upon further consideration, I’m not interested in Role B because I’m really looking for [job related specifics]” But if the hiring manager is unlikely to notice, there’s no reason to follow up.

      For Role A- I don’t know. It really depends on what the role is and how it interconnects with Role B. In some situations that would be a red flag, but in other situations it would be just fine. It also depends on your personal finances and whether you are able/willing to wait for a different offer.

  116. SadPanda*

    How to deal with a boss who is targeting you and is tearing down your work. Prior to this boss being in place, I was considered a high performer, now I’m spending as much as two hours daily defending my work. She’s been diligently documenting all my errors (think stuff like how I phrased an email, or forgetting to add a remark to an item.) but so far has denied any request for specific goals to work towards to improve my performance to where she says it should be. I am searching hardcore, but how do I manage until then?

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      This sucks. Documenting really small things like email phasing is definitely a sign that she’s trying to get rid of you. There could be many reasons why, like maybe she wants to hire her friend in your role. So try as hard as you can not to take it personally, although I realize that’s impossible. 1. Any chances of lateral transfers to a different department / manager? Is there anyone senior who would take you on? 2. I had a coworker take medical leave for a month or so due to the emotional strain of trying to operate in a system like this. He used that time to find a new role and never returned, just announced his departure. I don’t know if that is possible in your case but just putting it out there.

      1. Diloolie*

        I second getting a new job. If you were a high performer before, you’re definitely worth a job that doesn’t deal with this.

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      To manage your feelings until you can leave, it might help to just be emotionally resigned to the idea that (1) no matter what you do, say, or write, your boss is going to bend over backward to find something wrong with it, so do/say/write as you normally would as if you had a reasonable boss, and (2) consider becoming as equally “documentative” as she is: stop speaking to her except when absolutely necessary and get all instructions from her in emails/IMs. If you do receive verbal instructions from her, document that immediately afterward in an email to her “so that you have an opportunity to offer corrections if I’ve misunderstood anything.” Even if she doesn’t respond, you’re on record as having given her an opportunity to correct you. (3) If you haven’t already done this, get her to email you her written reluctance/refusals to provide specific goals or guidance to you on how to improve your performance. Or when she denies you training opportunities that you know other employees who’ve done your job have gotten.
      Make sure you save all these emails and send them to yourself (to a personal account not on the company server, if you can).
      I’m so sorry you’re going through this.

    3. ferrina*

      Depends on your boss’ personality. Why is she tearing you down? Is she just a bully, or does she have an agenda?

      If she’s documenting, it sounds like she has an agenda. I had a boss who wanted to tear down my reputation so that my lower-performing coworker could get a promotion instead of me, because she was friends with my coworker outside of work. There’s not much you can do but leave. While you’re there, document back and stay impeccably professional. If you’ve got friends in other teams, give them a quiet head’s up that this is happening. It helps with sanity and possibly documentation/witnesses.

      Oddly enough, it can help if you mentally check out and uninvest in work (especially if you were previously a high acheiver). It can help the boss feel like they’ve won, which can sometimes ease them off of you.
      I’m so sorry, and good luck in your search!

  117. Somewhere in Texas*

    Hello fellow AAM friends,

    I don’t need any advice today, but I wanted to put something out into the work-verse. I am ready for a new job. I am notoriously bad at leaving jobs, but I think it’s time. I don’t really have a public place to make these intentions known (I’m friends with colleagues on all social media) and this feels official to me. I’ll miss my current job, coworkers and the work we do; but I’m finally at peace that it’s time to move on.

    Now I am on to read all the resources that Allison has assembled and created for this exact scenario!

    3. ferrina*

      Good for you! I struggle with that too, and I’m so proud of you for doing what is right for you (even if it makes you a little sad).

    4. Lauren*

      Now is the time. 29 of my coworkers have left in the past 6 months. People have jumped 1-3 titles up with as much as 60k more in salary with an average of 20k increase in pay.

  118. Foreign Octopus*

    I don’t know if there are any teachers out there who work with adult students (I’m a self-employed ESL teacher) but I could use some advice from, well, anyone at the moment.

    (For context all my lessons are virtual and one-on-one with adults from the age of 18 to anything and they’re from all walks of life and cultures.)

    In my lesson this morning with a student I’ve had for about four years now, normally one lesson a week with some breaks here and there, there was an incident. He’s up for a funding award that he needs to present his case for and he had what can only be described as a tantrum when telling me about the other people in the running for it: there are four of them, three men and one women. Guess who he had the issue with?

    The woman’s area of research isn’t related to his – he’s in STEM and she’s in what appears to be policy research – and this was his first issue. The main issue though and the one that’s left me with a sour taste in my mouth is how he went into a long ranting tantrum reminiscent of Brett Kavanaugh in front of the Supreme Court over how he’s not going to get the award because his skin colour’s wrong (he’s white) and how it’s not fair that they’re forcing diversity. I told him that it’s not forcing diversity by opening doors for people that have traditionally been locked out by them but he cut me off by saying that he’s suffered too, that he has to do everything in a foreign language (he’s Russian, language is English) and that he knows he’s not going to get the award because she’s a woman, queer, and black.

    Honestly, I think I handled myself well at the time as I a) first tried to explain why her mere existence isn’t an insult to him, b) told him he was taking the decision to include her in the final four way too personally, and c) ultimately pivoted away from the matter all together.

    What I’m bothered about is how to move forward from here. As an ESL teacher, I have to take account of people’s cultural differences and while it’s been a struggle since MeToo, Black Lives Matter, and Covid (a lot of vaccine scepticism among the Russians I’ve spoken too), it’s always been a good conversation with my students. They’ve listened to me, I’ve listened to them, and we’ve both left with something new to think about. However, this time, the whole situation was just ugly and I don’t know what to do next.

    If anyone has any advice beyond not taking him as a student again (it is something I’m considering if there’s not another option), I’d appreciate it.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      “Yes, it must be horrifyingly difficult to be a white man today.”

      Um. Probably not.

      “I understand you’re frustrated, but I am actually in favor of efforts to increase diversity, so I am not the right audience for this argument. Let’s get on with the lesson.”

      1. Librarian of SHIELD*

        I like this response. It’s short and to the point, and if he (or any other student who brings up a topic you don’t want to argue about) won’t drop it at that point, stand firm.

    2. Diloolie*

      I’m in a similar situation with people who are above me and I hope you can manage to deal with this in a way that doesn’t cause extra stress. :( Sympathies!

    3. JB*

      What is the outcome that you want?

      Do you want him to realize he was wrong and apologize for what he said? This is unlikely to happen, and there is no way for you to make it happen; that would have to come from his own desire to examine his beliefs and prejudices. If you won’t feel comfortable working with him knowing he may still fully believe the things that he said, then you probably should ‘fire’ him as a client/student.

      Or do you just not want to be subjected to a tantrum like that again? That may be more workable. I’d suggest being forward with him: “We can’t have a repeat of last time’s incident; that is not what these sessions are for, and I won’t be yelled at. I understand you were frustrated and emotions can run high around these kinds of things, but I am not the appropriate audience for those emotions. If that happens again, I will give you one reminder to calm down, and then I will disconnect.” Alternatively, you can just make that your policy in general; if a student starts getting agitated, you cut them off (“woah, you’re getting heated. Should we take a break, or just change the subject?”) and if they don’t respond, you let them know you are ending the session. Just having that plan in place may make you feel more secure.

  119. South of the Border*

    I was talking with a coworker, “Jan”, and asked how another coworker was, “Tim”. (Tim was out at an appointment to see if he could have surgery.) Jan replied, “Oh, I don’t know if I should be telling you this. I don’t want to talk too much about it.”

    10 minutes later, Jan is in the boss’s office and they’re talking about Tim’s surgery! Very loudly! “TIM DIDN’T PASS BECAUSE HIS BLOOD PRESSURE IS TOO HIGH!”

    Um, wtf? I guess my question was answered, but they always do stuff like this and I feel left out. It’s an extremely small department, so it’s VERY obvious when someone is left out.

    Has anyone experienced this? What did you do? How do you not let it bother you?

    1. ferrina*

      It’s not cool to be talking about a co-worker’s health issues without their knowledge/consent. So don’t be Jan. It makes me wonder if there’s a lot more disfunction that is included in your post (which would change my answer).

      Otherwise, it’s normal to be more chatty with one colleague than another. Some people just click a little better. If you and Jan don’t click, that’s okay. You can be professional and friendly without being friends. Try spreading out outside of your team- many of my best office friends were in different departments (it’s also cool to hear what other departments do).

    2. RagingADHD*

      Anytime someone says “I shouldn’t be telling you this,” my response is “then please don’t.”

      I honestly don’t want to know my coworker’s private medical info, or any other personal information they didn’t choose to share with me, and I don’t want to be one of the assholes complicit in spreading it around. So I guess I manage to not let it bother me by being happy that the assholes don’t accept me as one of their own.

      Jan and your boss sound like really unpleasant people, and the fact that they don’t click with you is a compliment to you.

  120. Diloolie*

    I have a co-worker who is very frustrating. I order food for the office because I order the Doctor’s breakfast, and he offers for everyone else. But this lady seems to think that I’m her personal waitress or something. I walk into the office in the morning and she’s already got messages of what she wants, or she’ll ask everyone if I’m in yet. She’s even mistaken my sister for me and started ordering her food.

    I spoke to management about it, but they said “that’s just how she is, don’t take it personal and tell us if she escalates.”

    She’s been escalating, and acting like we’re so buddy-buddy, she can make jokes about me being annoyed by this stuff.

    And just now, she walked into the front to complain about people “putting race where it doesn’t belong” re: Rittenhouse verdict. Spending like 5 minutes talking about her ridiculous right wing talking points while I seethed.

    I’m mostly venting about this. Management here is not… great. (I recently was scolded for asking a manager not to touch my stuff and throw things away on my desk. She and my manager pulled me into the office for a 20 minute shout down about how disrespectful I am.) So I’m not actually going to do anything about this, but UUUUGHHH.

    Working around so many right wing people who think they can just say whatever they want is getting to me.

    1. curiousLemur*

      She’s escalated, so will management expect you to tell them?

      How do you get in trouble when a manager throws things away that were on your desk?! That’s awful.

      1. Diloolie*

        That lady is a very old employee who has been here as long as the practice, with a penchant for being a busybody. And she’s been grumpy lately. So I guess I was just a convenient person to get mad at.

        I was put in this meeting with the _very polite_ text message I sent my manager while she reamed me out about how disrespectful it is to say “My workspace is not her business.” It’s …great.

        (At least head manager was on my side when I complained and this lady comes back the next day like “I just wanted to tell you my side, etc etc, here’s a peace offering $50 gift card.”)

    2. ecnaseener*

      Ugh, that sounds infuriating. Management did say to tell them if it escalates – I know you don’t trust them, but you were willing to tell them the first time so maybe worth a try?

      1. Diloolie*

        Yeah. I’m a little less heated now and I may approach the big manager lady who had my back earlier. Thing is, she’s also right wing, so I’ll probably have to word it in a way that sounds like it’s not the right wing politics I’m complaining about, but politics in general being brought up at work.

        Appreciate it.

    3. PollyQ*

      You’re kind of burying the lede here, because this:

      I recently was scolded for asking a manager not to touch my stuff and throw things away on my desk. She and my manager pulled me into the office for a 20 minute shout down about how disrespectful I am.

      is actually really awful, so you should be trying to get out ASAP. And that will also solve your problem with the co-worker as well, so win-win.

      1. Diloolie*

        I’m burying the lede partly because that was already taken care of with that old lady coming and doing a bunch of CYA including a $50 gift card “peace offering”. The one management lady above these two was on my side, so I do feel supported in that. Unfortunately, she’s the one off on maternity leave. The inexperienced, bad one, is on premises.

    4. pancakes*

      What would’ve happened if you’d interrupted her monologue to say “I’m not interested in discussing this with you” instead of listening and seething?

      “Tell us if she escalates” sounds like they’re well aware she has a tendency to escalate and don’t care to do anything about it. The 20-min shout-down is another red flag. These people aren’t likely to ever become pleasant to work with.

    5. SadPanda*

      That’s just how he/she is, is the lamest and most often used excuse for people who don’t want to call someone out on their unacceptable behaviors.

  121. fogharty*

    I’ve received some bad health news that will greatly restrict my ability to work within a couple of years. I’m not sure when to tell my job. Now? Or wait until things worsen? I haven’t told anyone yet.

    2. irene adler*

      Why do you feel that you must tell your workplace about your health news?
      What is your expectation of your employer if you tell them about your health news (either now or later on when ‘things worsen’)?

      I’ve seen situations where someone is forced out when they reveal “health news”. And I’ve seen some companies step up and work with an employee who informs them of their “health news”, making sure they remain employed no matter how bad things get. For these reasons, think carefully before you disclose.

    3. PollyQ*

      Not until it actually affects your ability to do your work. They have no need to know before then, and even though it shouldn’t affect how they treat you, it might anyway. Sorry for the bad news!!

    4. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      Don’t tell yet … you don’t know how it will play out for your particular body and work situation.

      But take a look at the http://www.askjan.org site — you can check for reasonable accommodation information by health condition, so that you can have a heads up on how your situation might play out and what you might want to have in mind for ways to make it work.

  122. Handheld Analog Calculator*

    Is there anything I can do to ameliorate communication problems with a disorganized coworker? She often asks for information I’ve already shared electronically – via Google Drive, that she could find in past email correspondence with me, or that exists in the office’s shared drive, etc. Sometimes she’ll ask in front of other colleagues, and because I feel rude mentioning that I’ve already shared that information with her, I wonder if those colleagues think that the communication issue lies with me. She is a hardworking, loyal, kind coworker and sensitive enough that I’ve never brought this issue up to her.

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      I’d just say in the moment, “Oh! That’s part of the email I sent Tuesday. Let me know if you don’t see it and I’ll resend.” Just matter of fact on non-condemning/confrontational. That way people (including her) know she already has it, but it doesn’t sound like you’re being belligerent. It might honestly be helpful for her to hear how often she already has the info she’s asking about. And if you tell her where to find it without re-providing it immediately, you’re at least taking steps to train her to put some of her own effort in instead of always expecting you to support her disorganization by re-providing things.

      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        I like this approach a lot – hits a bunch of different points with just two sentences.

      2. Diloolie*

        Yeah, state what you did when you respond to her. “I emailed that on Wednesday,” “That should be in the links,” etc. Nobody listening should be thinking the problem lies with you.

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      If she asks in front of witnesses:
      “Can you send me the X schedule?”
      “Sure, I emailed it last week. If you search for X Schedule it should turn up. Let me know if you don’t find it.”

      Just make sure you sound friendly, not annoyed. And remember, she probably does the same thing with your colleagues too!

      1. Handheld Analog Calculator*

        Thanks, all! I think I’ve been avoiding directness because she’s the only coworker senior to me on my team.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Directness can feel rude, but it doesn’t have to be. Just use a super-friendly tone of voice and express willingness to REsend it if she doesn’t find it.

    3. JB*

      If these colleagues also have to work with her, they probably know how she is. Don’t worry about their perception too much.

  123. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

    A little while back, i posted rather vaguely about being falsely accused of something terrible in an attempt to get me fired. It was done by a person in another department in retaliation for a report I’d made about their not following policy and leaving us with a huge liability.

    To clarify on the situation: i was accused of making a racist comment. I work in a NPO that works in a majority BIPOC community and have been here for several years. I work extremely closely with the community and of all ages (and am a WOC myself), so this accusation is fucking ludicrous. This person escalated this false accusation to my manager, manager’s manager, our president, and our HR.

    They provided “specifics” in the report, as in: “at 2:45PM on today, Tuesday November 16th, Certified Scorpion Trainer said [insert terrible/racist comment here] about [insert racial minority here]. The men heard the comment and were deeply offended. We cannot have a racist work in this underserved community therefore i will be forwarding this report up the leadership ladder and to HR so that she can be fired like she deserves.”

    To also clarify, the time this person stated i made that comment, i was outside of the building on my one-hour lunch break and camera footage would clearly show me leaving the building ten minutes before this accusation and not come back for an hour.

    This person’s own department didn’t believe them because apparently they do this kind of thing all the time. Somehow this person has not been fired for this kind of garbage. They’re govt and i believe they’re unionized.

    Here’s my issue(s): the fact that they did this, that their department didn’t believe them but i have no idea if they disciplined them or have received any consequences, i have received no information or apology, and that this is apparently still in my HR file. Why? Because MY LEADERSHIP BELIEVED THEM AND NOT ME.

    My leadership’s official statement to me when i told them it was completely fabricated was “well they told me they got the time mixed up.” The only other time we were anywhere near each other that day was about five hours prior. So how can you make up all these specifics to seem more credible and then backtrack like “oops my bad lol.” Not only that, my leadership also told me to just not talk at all [seriously] so that this person “won’t have anything to complain about.” (Let me add here that my direct leadership is friendly with Accuser).

    Like… how is it that i was falsely accused of something like this with an attempt to get me fired and ruin my character and professional reputation and *I’m* the one who gets disciplined or whatever for it?

    What would you do? (Other than getting out of this place, still working on it). But i can’t transfer to another sector of my org, seeing as this is on my file and no one would probably want me once they see it.

    1. PollyQ*

      This might be worth spending some money for an employment lawyer’s time. It’s possible that she might be able to influence your company to take that out of your record, which I think would be valuable, given that you may need this place as a reference even after you leave.

      1. CatCat*

        Yes. Sounds like this is causing you reputational harm preventing you from moving in your career. You should find out your options like getting your file cleaned up. You may also be able to go after the accuser for defamation (whether that would be worth your time and money is up to you, but a consult with a lawyer should help you understand your options and the costs for pursuing them).

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Are you allowed to add your own note to the accusation? Like, “this statement was completely fabricated and I have evidence proving that?”

      1. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

        unfortunately i myself never “saw” the accusation as it was emailed directly up the chain. nor was it ever printed, but i was directly asked about it by leadership and when i defended myself, that’s when the whole “don’t talk at all then” happened.

    3. ferrina*

      I don’t know if there’s anything you can do. It’s appalling that they “do this kind of thing all the time” and don’t face consequences.
      Honestly, I’m not surprised that you haven’t gotten and information or apology, and that the note is in the HR file. It sounds like there isn’t much evidence either way, and they don’t want to commit to a judgement of guilt or innocence. I know that feels like an accusation, but it’s more of them making sure they aren’t missing a pattern.

      I’m way more concerned about the Direct Leadership telling you to just….not talk. Either they are concerned about you and are going to watch you very closely, or they aren’t and are still going to keep an eye on you in case accuser tries to say something else. Just “oh well, this is your issue, just don’t talk and nothing will happen…” that screams incompetent leadership. Run!

      Get out quick, and in the meantime keep your head down to preserve your reference. Steer away from Accuser, and if you must interact, friendly and professional and with witnesses. I’m really sorry.

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      Is there an official policy for how your company should handle something like this in the handbook? And if so, are they following it? If they aren’t, I would focus on that (if that policy would help you). It’s hard to avoid taking steps when someone is asking you to enforce your own policy. Also, where is your manager on this? They should be going to bat for you.

      1. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

        I’m not familiar with the policy, plus I’m not sure if it would help since Accuser is in a completely different department from me. My manager is the one who told me i should not talk at all.

        1. WellRed*

          Does not matter if they are in a different dept. what is the policy outlined for this sort of action and Did They Follow It? Got a handbook? Look it up. Push for clarification. I’m also in agreement with others that a lawyer may be needed. This could cause you irreparable harm. Lawyer does not mean going to court.

    5. Cold Fish*

      Have you heard from anyone in HR or just your direct leadership?

      If not, I would email HR (NOT thru your direct leadership as I wouldn’t trust it would be handled/escalated appropriately) In the email detail that the complaint was verbally related to you, but you have not seen the complaint, that you have proof that what you were told could not have happened, that you think this fabrication is in retaliation for the report you initially made, and your direct leadership’s response to being told it was a fabrication. CC a personal email account so you have a record of response.

      Also, if the accuser’s department didn’t believe the report, is there anyone in that department (like their direct manager) who would be willing to send HR an email (CC’ing you) acknowledging that accuser has history of making false reports in retaliation for personal grudges?

      I know it seems like something that could just be solved by finding a new job, but in today’s world, ghosts like this tend to pop up years later in the most unexpected ways. I would do whatever I could to document your response just in case.

      1. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

        This actually happened more than a month ago and i never heard from HR. I was only “talked to” about it from my own manager. They said that leadership talked about it but that what “saved” me is that the alleged comment wasn’t “technically racist.” When i mentioned that i NEVER said this and i don’t want anyone to think that i would ever say anything like this i was brushed off and told to just not talk at all.

        I think my leadership wants to sweep this under the rug since they seem to be pretty friendly with Accuser. They have a habit of doing this to cover up bad behavior from their fellow friends.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          If the complaint supposedly went to HR and you’re told it’s in your file, I would still email HR directly (or email again if they didn’t respond initially) and ask about it. You can mention that your manager gave you details about it that you can’t verify, ignored your rebuttal and evidence demonstrating the complaint’s falseness, and advised you to not talk ever. I’d mention that the original complaint feels like retaliation for a report you filed and that your manager’s behavior feels like retaliation for trying to address the merits of the complaint.

          Your leadership sucks and maybe your HR does too, but pushing HR to deal with it might be your only option (outside of leaving).

    6. retired3*

      Focus on taking care of yourself, not Feelings. What if you had close friend in this situation and that friend got all this good advice (get a lawyer!)? What would you want your friend to do to take care of themselves? You have all the power you need to act. My first thought was what many have said: lawyer. Then you have someone without the Feelings and with the knowledge to protect you.

    7. retired3*

      Adding to my comment. Many years ago I had a child who was molested. I was very upset (Feelings!). I had a prosecutor tell me that all people would hear/see was my Feelings and not the facts of what had happened. This was some of the most valuable advice I’ve ever received. This is where an advocate such as a lawyer is good; they can look at policies, etc. and sound neutral. It sounds like you don’t really know how your workplace “works” outside your duties and relationships. That is where an outside advocate who understands organizations would help.

      1. Certified Scorpion Trainer*

        True, this is my first “corporate/professional” job (i worked veterinary/ fitness/ retail fields previously) and I’m on the spectrum, so i do have problems with separating feelings, especially with bullshit like this lol. I think I’m going to reach out to HR on my own. My org does have legal consultations/advising as a benefit, so I’m considering going to them or maybe just reaching out to a completely different one on my own.

        1. retired3*

          We random strangers on the interwebs are in your corner…keep in touch. This is a legitimately upsetting situation. If I were the manager, I would be thinking “lawsuit.” HR may be more keyed into this. I wonder if they would do an investigation (take a deep breath)? Just remember you are enough; there are people who believe you and know these situations happen and are bad (and aren’t your fault).

        2. Owler*

          Be wary if the “legal consultations/advising” is paid for by the company. Similar to how HR is there to protect the company not you, you don’t need advice from a legal entity that is financially tied to the company.

          1. retired2*

            I was wondering about that myself. There is probably a local bar association that one could contact. My thought exactly about HR…why I was thinking investigation. It is always good to have a steady advocate in these situations. One learns things never taught in school, as the country song says.

  124. Bad Manager*

    So.. I’m a project manager who is a first time people manager. It is NOT going well.

    First of all, my relationship with my own boss is not good. She is petty, micromanaging, and self-important to the point that I already know that I’m not going to survive here, let alone thrive. I’m actively looking for new jobs and I’ve been here just a year (usually I am a Job Hanger On, but I just can’t here for various reasons that are not the point of why I’m writing).

    My employee is completely new to the industry and just out of college. He’s also a nepotism hire and wasn’t doing well with another team so they shifted him to me. I was never given any guidance on management, just “you’re really good at training so you can do it.”

    Well, 6 months later it’s obvious I can’t get through to this person, he has no idea what is actually required of the job and zero sense of urgency or priority to the tasks, to the point that he asked when he was going to be promoted. And now I feel awful that I clearly haven’t been good enough at feedback to let him know that he is in dire need of improvement. I countered back with what I need from him in order for him to fulfill the duties of his current role and he’s on board, but I seriously doubt it’s going to happen for a variety of personality reasons.

    My boss informed me he’s now on a time clock and I need to meet with him regularly to help him improve, but she’s given me zero guidelines or advice on how to do this, just “if it doesn’t happen we’ll document in a few months and start the process of getting rid of him.” I tried to explain that as a first time manager I need support and she completely brushed it off and said “just give him regular feedback.” Which is what I’ve been doing all along and hasn’t helped in the least.

    I just can’t. I hope to be gone from here in part to not deal with this, but more to get out off this toxic team. Any advice on how to deal with my employee in the meantime?

    1. ferrina*

      First, I’m sorry you’re in this situation. First-time managing is hard, let alone with an unsupportive boss and a nepotism hire that no one else wanted.

      Here’s my practical advice:
      Write down the requirements of his job. Imagine you were writing the job as if you were going to make a robot do it.
      Example: Meet deadlines 100% of the time. If a deadline cannot be met, alert Bad Manager (you) as soon as possible, ideally at least 1 business day in advance (this will vary based on role).
      Write a list of 3-5 items like that to describe the basic tenants of the job that this person is not currently doing.

      Next, set a timeline for when you want this person to meet these independently and a plan for how you are going to get them there. Set up your plan to include a “training wheels” time (in education this is known as “scaffolding”). So for Week 1-2, you’ll check on the person daily to ensure projects are on time. For Week 3-4, you’ll check in with them 1-3 days before deadlines. Then by Week 5-7, you’ll have weekly project check-in meetings where you’ll deliberately ask about whether each project is on time. By Week 8, Direct Report will own the check-in meetings and report to you if they anticipate any set-backs. In this model, they will be delivering on time within 8 weeks.

      Once you have this plan, meet with your boss. Walk her through this plan and timeline. She may have edits, and you want her buy-in in case you need to get rid of Direct Report.
      Then you’ll meet with Direct Report. Be clear that they are not meeting their job description and that your goal is to help them get there in X time.

      And document everything. Note that this plan is essentially a PIP, only HR isn’t involved. You want everything documented by the time HR gets involved to help make the case for letting Direct Report go. So take meeting notes, note to yourself everytime they don’t meet one of the job metrics in the plan you laid out, etc.
      Good luck!

      1. AnotherLibrarian*

        This is pretty solid advice and matches what I was told when I had an under performing person. You have to document everything. Such a pain.

    2. Sad*

      I have no particular advice, but as a first time manager in a very similar situation (and equally unhappy) just wanted to say you’re not alone. And I hope you get out soon.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Great advice from ferrina.

      Adding to that: Reading between the lines, I’m getting the sense that you’re not separating what’s your responsibility from your employee’s responsibility.

      People management has some overlap with project management, in that you set the goals/expectations, but it’s up to the employee to meet them (and ask for help if they can’t). It’s *not* your job, as a people manager, to make sure that the employee succeeds no matter what. Instead, your job is to give them *reasonable* opportunities to succeed. If they fail, despite your attempts to support them, *they* failed, not you. Of course, it’s easier to say this than it is to feel it (ask me how I know…).

      Anyways, good luck on your job search!

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Reading even more between the lines, it sounds to me that what your boss is wanting you to do right now is to start getting the documentation in place to get this nepotism hire sacked from the job with as little blowback as possible. Think of it as an opportunity to get some good experience in setting expectations, meeting regularly with an employee who doesn’t meet the expectations, and documenting the failures to meet expectations.

    5. LGC*

      Late AF, but from a guy who’s done supervisory work for seven years now and still thinks he’s kind of bad at it a lot of the time: it doesn’t sound like it’s you. Or at the very least, it’s not just you.

      In other words, you’re not a bad manager, you’re just a bad manager on this dysfunctional team. To be honest, your employee sounds like he’d be difficult regardless (ah yes, the nepotism hires, those are always fun – I still have nightmares about one of the ones we had years ago who sexually harassed the HR lady.)

      That said, to answer your last question: you can’t not deal with Fergus because your job is to deal with Fergus. However, you can provide suggestions to your boss, since she seems to be giving you zero guidance. (Yes, I know, normally this isn’t a great idea, but honestly you might have to gently suggest or ask for more concrete things. “Hey, Fergus let the llamas escape into the street again; can you sit with me when I reprimand him?” Stuff like that.) Spell out the support you want from her – she might not listen, but at least you’ve said it.

      As for Fergus, if he’s that bad (which it sounds like he is), lay it out to your boss how serious this is. If she’s the roadblock to fixing the problem, make it her problem.

      (And yes, I’m really focusing on your boss here because…like, it sounds like she’s the one that can fire this guy.)

  125. CRM*

    What is everyone’s favorite CRM? Looking to track relationships, interactions, and year to year engagement/sales.

    1. Kat Maps*

      I’ve used CiviCRM in the past (open source) and really liked how it handled relationships, with a lot of flexibility for custom relationships. It also had decent tracking of yearly donations and event fees collected.

    2. Anonymous Luddite*

      OK, I’ll admit it: between having no idea what CRM was and seeing relationships, interaction and engagements, I was thinking this was another polyamory thread.

    3. Generic Name*

      We use cosential (now unanet?), and it’s okay. I wish it were easier to search call logs so I could find stuff I’ve entered in the past, but maybe I’m just not well versed in it enough. I wouldn’t be surprised if part of my problem is that we share logins.

  126. Corgi*

    My coworker’s work has been not great since she came back from medical leave for a head injury. This is super out of character for her and unfortunately it’s causing problems for our team as we have to keep fixing her mistakes before they get to the big bosses. I spent a full day fixing her work instead of working on my own. She’s also been confused and out of it, and I’m worried it’s because of her head injury. So I brought the work issues up to my manager (I didn’t mention my speculation about her health). Now my coworker is royally pissed because she says I “snitched” on her and I should have covered her mistakes for her (we all check each other’s work for errors and I’m certainly not perfect). Did I screw up here? I feel awful.

    1. Reba*

      You did not screw up. Snitching is not a thing in this situation. It’s very very likely because of the injury. And your manager needs to know how you are spending your time/how work is going. I’m sorry your coworker snapped at you! She is no doubt worried and embarrassed, and quite possibly down some emotional regulation again due to injury, but that wasn’t right.

      I also suspect your manager didn’t handle whatever conversation they had particularly well, since your coworker went straight to shoot-the-messenger mode.

      I hope it blows over soon!

      1. Corgi*

        Thanks! It may be a while. Another coworker (who doesn’t have the full story and has only spoken to the coworker with the head injury) just called me the b-word for “tattling” so I really appreciate the reassurance that I didn’t screw up here!

    2. L. Ron Jeremy*

      You are ok in my book. Redoing her work instead of completing your own goes way beyond checking other’s work for errors.

    3. Anonymous this time around*

      You haven’t done anything wrong.

      It may not be relevant but in case it is, here’s my experience as someone whose work was compromised due to a health problem. I came back from a serious medical issue too early. I was making a ton of mistakes and didn’t realize it, but my manager did. Ultimately our HR director talked with me about going back on medical leave to take care of myself. It was a kindness and a relief. I took another six weeks off and when I finally came back to work, I was back to my usual competent self. I’m absolutely not saying you should push for that in your role, and it’s not your responsibility, just adding perspective that this can happen to people who don’t realize they’re not performing at full capacity.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I think Corgi’s input is necessary to let the manager know how bad things are for the injured coworker regarding their work output and effect on the team. Otherwise they won’t know if they should be stepping in (at this point they should be) or bringing in HR to help as appropriate.

        Your coworkers are jerks for making personal attacks on you. Best case, the injured coworker realizes that they aren’t ready to be back, get the help they need, and regret tantrumming at you.

    4. I'm just here for the cats!*

      No you did not screw up. The only thing i could see is that you should have talked to her before going to the boss. But she shouldn’t call you a snitch. If you are fixing her work then you can’t do your own work. This is not good and maybe she came back from leave to early.

    5. PollyQ*

      Yes, you were right to bring it to your manager. Also, the head injury might not just be the cause of the mistakes, it also might be part of the issue with her reaction. Concussions can cause mood changes, and if she’s walking around with a constant headache, that can also make people cranky. I hope she’s able to take more time off, or perhaps get an intermittent FMLA that would let her work part-time and get more rest.

  127. Lauren*

    I resigned and I am struggling to be motivated enough to do my work. I literally cannot start it and it’s getting noticed. I just can’t get motivated to do it and then it takes a ton of concentration so then I end up having issues going back to it because the kids need to be fed or wake up crying just when I get in a groove.

  128. SyFyGeek*

    I like my job, I really do. 5 miles from my driveway to the parking lot, great benefits, ample time off..So why am I posting? I’m an Admin to a Dean in Higher Ed. In June we brought 2 additional departments under our umbrella- so now I support the Dean, 4 Chairs, and almost 50 Faculty. Before it was the Dean, 2 chairs and 15 Faculty.

    The Dean said they were going to ask for a larger than normal increase for all the increased responsibilities. I got a whopping 1.5% increase which is around $50 a month. I pushed back, and Dean said they would see what they could do. It’s been a month and nothing. And now it’s been announced that instead of working 37.5 hours a week, I will have to work 40 hours a week, with no increase because I’m “semi-salaried”- I don’t get overtime, but I have to use vacation or sick time if I’m out, or make up the hours. (and this applies to all office staff)

    If I come in and bust ass all day, skip lunch, and stay over 30-60 minutes, I still can’t get everything done. I’m spending my time taking care of immediate needs for Faculty and can’t find any time to work on long range projects.

    This may be all whining, and feel free to call me out on it, but how can I get this tripled workload under control? And I’m also ADD, which paralyzes me sometimes when I look at my stack of work. All tips or tricks gratefully accepted.

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      Honestly? Stop busting your ass all day, stop skipping lunch, and stop staying late. If you’re getting everything done, they have zero reason to change anything, even if it’s killing you. You can only do so much in a day, so figure out what that amount is (like if the pre-change amount was workable, use that), and tell your boss that that is all you can do in one day. If someone needs something else on top of that, send them to your boss and let them figure it out. If they just say “make it work” you tell them “I can work on [new project] today, but that means halting work on [other projects you were working on].” If anyone complains, send them right to your boss.

      You can beg and plead with someone for help, but if everything is working out for them they have zero incentive to change. It shouldn’t be like that, but unfortunately sometimes the only way to make someone care is to make your problem their problem too.

      2. Kathenus*

        Yes, yes, yes – 100% agree with A Simple Narwhal. Do what you can in your work hours, and make the overload your bosses problem. Stop covering the extra duties, skipping lunch, etc. or nothing will ever change.

    2. Alex*

      It doesn’t sound like your job duties fall under what could be considered exempt. Just because they don’t pay you hourly doesn’t mean they don’t have to pay you overtime. I think what they are doing is illegal.

    3. BlueBelle*

      Stop working through your lunch and staying late. It might be beneficial to log the time spent on various things – helping faculty vs. long term projects and ask your manager to prioritize the list for you and ask if there are plans to hire anyone to take over the additional duties.
      Do not kill yourself for this job.
      Good luck!

    4. ferrina*

      There’s no such thing as “semi-salaried”. You’re either exempt or non-exempt, and those are set by legal parameters. Alison has posted a lot about the laws around this. It sounds like they think you’re exempt (though you can check with a lawyer if your job should really be exempt), so this is all legal (they do have to pay you for weeks that you work, but they can require you to use PTO for that if you don’t make up the time. If my understanding is correct, not a lawyer)

      Decide how much time you will give to your job. Is it 40 hours? Great. Figure out how much you can get done in 40 hours. Then tell your boss- “I don’t have enough bandwidth for everything on my plate. I can do A and B, but won’t be able to get to C. If you’d like me to do C, then you’ll need to let me know if I should deprioritize A or B. This means A or B might not get done.” Then work your 40 hours and let things be undone. Often organizations won’t change unless they feel the pain.

      In a healthy, functional place, your manager will help you get this under control by taking away responsibilities. If they tell you to magically find time (but don’t send in a requisition request for a Tardis), then the only solution I’ve found is leaving.

      1. PollyQ*

        The exempt/non-exempt is a two-part test. First, they have to be paying you more than the minimum, which is ~$35k nationwide, but can be much higher in some states. Second, regardless of what they’re paying you, you need to be performing certain job duties. Managerial ones are the classic example, but certain “learned professions” like doctor, lawyer, computer programmer also fall into this category. Administrative assistants generally do not, so it’s very likely that you’re straight-up non-exempt. This does mean that you wouldn’t need to be paid for hours that you take off, but it also means that you’d be entitled to overtime.

      2. Square Root of Minus One*

        This, this, this. Semi-salaried looked immediately like techno-legal BS, and… it is. Get all drawbacks of salary and no advantages.
        Your boss is unreasonable and possibly untrustworthy. Careful there.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      Agree with the others: draw a strict boundary around what you can and cannot accomplish in 40 hours/week. You will clearly have a lot of tasks left over because there are two additional departments’ worth of work to manage. What happened to the Admins from the other two departments? Is there any plan to replace them? They cannot reasonably expect that you will continue to do the work of three people by yourself – if you keep this in mind for yourself AND make it very clear to everyone you’re supposed to support, it might help you lay out the problem for them. Like, “It’s not possible for me to do 120 hours of work this week but here’s what I have prioritized for my 40 hours.” Or tasks from the other two departments’ faculties that would have previously gone to Joan and Julio, say “Joan/Julio would have taken care of that. Without them, I will just be accomplishing things one at a time as I’m able to within my 40 hours this week.”

      Be clear with the Dean and everyone else about what you *are* accomplishing and that it’s taking the full 40 hours/week, and that beyond that things cannot be done by you. One concern about letting things drop (because you literally cannot get to everything but not everyone cares about that) is the affected people will make it sound like you aren’t doing your job or never get anything done. Get ahead of that story so you are setting the proper expectations with everyone. Heck, encourage the faculty to lobby the dean to get additional staff!

      1. SyFyGeek*

        The two new departments shared an admin. Between Summer of 2020 and February of 2021 they went through 3 Admins. I picked up the slack in February, since they were going to be ours anyway.

        This week I’m logging what I do, how long it takes, and how much I can get done.

    6. Can Can Cannot*

      Tell your Dean that it won’t be possible to support everyone on the new team, and ask for him to prioritize what he wants done. Probably best to start the conversation with your strawman proposal, explicitly showing what will and will not be possible. He can move things around, but the amount of possible work can’t change. If he puts something above the line, you move something below.

    7. WellRed*

      I’m guessing there’s no semi salaried positions at the university but this screams for following up with HR about job classification. And STOP trying to make this work and skipping lunch.

    8. AnotherLibrarian*

      Okay, I don’t know what “semi-salaried” means. You’re either exempt or not. There’s no other options; however, you can be exempt and need to use sick time for Drs appointments (I do) and as far as I know, that’s legal. I do know some Union jobs where the “expected hours” have increased from 37.5 to 40 after contract negotiations. Is that potentially what your referring too here?

      None of that is really relevant though, because the biggest issue is that you have more work than you can complete reasonably in a day. So, make a list of everything, document what you can’t do, and go to your boss and explain that you can not complete all of these tasks in a 40 hour week. Then stop working more than 40 hour weeks. As Simple Narwhal says, as long as they don’t see a problem, they won’t think there is one.

    9. Owler*

      Three departments means that in a 40 hour week, you can dedicate 12-14 hours per department. Make sure that you document what you are doing by department, and balance it so that even if the Dean had you first, his work feels the pain as much (or more) thank the other departments.

      1. SyFyGeek*

        This is why I love AAM so much! It never occurred to me to literally divide up my hours. I have 4 chairs- so each of their departments can have 9 hours, the dean’s projects can have 4 hours.

        This could be the start of something great!

  129. Duquesne*

    I’m curious about AAMers thoughts on the use of corporate-esque job titles for positions in a non-profit. I work at a state funded non-profit where almost everyone is paid and always has been – it’s not a grassroots volunteer-type organisation, more one that delivers certain services to complement state services in a particular field. All staff are professionals in their fields and well educated/experienced. An issue has arisen around job titles where many staff have asked for theirs to be amended to reflect more accurately what they do (think moving from ‘teapot maker’ to ‘teapot designer’, ‘teapot varnisher’ etc.) and there has been mega pushback from the board about the use of professional or corporate sounding titles in the non-profit arena. This isn’t a case of someone wanting to be Chief Financial Officer when in reality they’re an admin assistant – these titles are a more accurate representation of the level and scope of the work they do. I understand where this issue with corporate titles in non-profits originates, but I feel like thinking has moved on since then and given that we are an organization where everyone is paid (with the exception of occasional volunteers) I’m on the side of changing the titles. The revised titles wouldn’t alienate our clients or effect the relationships we’ve built. But maybe I’m looking at it wrong?!

    1. WoodswomanWrites*

      I just changed my own job title this week, with my manager’s support, to best reflect my work. Having worked in the nonprofit world for many years, your post makes me think that this is overstepping on the part of your board.

      I agree that their response is strange. You have a professional staff of managers, and this comes across as something board members shouldn’t be involved in. Their role should be in strategic direction, fiscal management, guidance for your executive director, etc. Are they typically this micromanagey and involved in day to day decisions that should be handled by your senior management? If so, that’s problematic.

      1. Duquesne*

        They do overstep at times but grandiose facilitates it. He’s a little ineffectual at times so they tend to swoop in and overcompensate.

          1. WoodswomanWrites*

            Might your executive director be able to push back on this one? If not, it looks like you’re stuck with the board nixing the change. Or maybe you can hold off for now and revisit it at a later date. If your nonprofit relies on donations based on the tax year as many do, it could be helpful to wait on this until the end of January when the busy donation season is over. This is the time of year when you want your board members to be happy and your staff to have as much other stuff off their plates as possible. Good luck!

    2. ferrina*

      Ugh, the titles really should be updated. Presumably the staff won’t stay there forever, and if they ever do decide to move to the corporate world, it’s helpful to be able to have a title that corresponds to their responsibility.
      Won’t it also help the NPO employees in their role? Having an accurate title lends weight to external (and sometimes internal) communications. I used to do director-level responsibilities with a manager title (yes, there were many issues at that place), and it was impossible to get anyone to respond to me!

    3. fhqwhgads*

      I have worked at for-profits and non-profits and I genuinely have no idea what you mean by “professional or corporate sounding” titles. Job titles are job titles. They either describe a certain role clearly to people in that field or they don’t. Other than obviously Devo titles – like Major Gifts Officer, etc, where there wouldn’t be one at all in a for-profit setting, I can’t think of an example of a title that would inherently imply to me the role is non-profit or not.

  130. Hattie McDoogal*

    Yesterday I got a tentative job offer for what is essentially a job on a landscaping crew. It’s full time, low-stress, pay is OK but no benefits or PTO or any of that type of thing. The interviewer told me most of the people who do the job are young, either students or just out of school, and many of them just do the job on summer/winter breaks from school. This is appealing to me because I’m planning on going back to school in 2022 and was fretting about what I would do about money. I’m tempted to take the job but it’s a physical job and I’m not exactly young (though I look and sound like I am) and my husband thinks the wear and tear on my body would get to me more than I think.

    I’m also, I think, possible still in the running for a more normal office job, adjacent to the legal field. Pays more than the landscaping job but not by much, has benefits and PTO etc. I had a nice interview with them last week and they asked for references and said I’d hear back by early this week. I’ve of course heard nothing, and none of my references have been contacted either, so I’m *assuming* I didn’t get it but I’m hesitant to accept the landscaping job in case the office job gets back to me.

    I’m currently employed (though at a job I dislike and really want to leave) so there not a ton of pressure but I’m still not sure what to do. Any advice/perspective welcome!

    1. ferrina*

      You may well be in the running for the other job- these things often take longer than we think.

      But let’s ignore that. Would you be happy at the landscaping job? Can you afford to take it? (factor in how much you’d need/want to take leave without pay and how the lack of benefits will impact you). Can you physically do it? (how much physical activity do you currently do? If you currently get sore from an hour of gardening, this might not be a good match. Also bear in mind that if you don’t currently have a highly physical job, you will be tired for at least the first few months. Like lay on the couch and watch 3 hours of Law&Order reruns tired.)
      If the answer to those three questions are “Yes”, then go for it. If you later get the legal-adjacent office job, you can always leave the landscaping job (yes, it’s a bridge burned, but likely not something to follow you around if that’s not where your career is)

      Caveat: Leaving an office job for more “blue-collar” work can make it hard to get another office job later unless your job history tells a coherent story (“Oh, they left work as a copy editor to become a landscaper and now they are applying for a botanist job.”) That will likely be helped by your return to school, but still something to be aware of.

      1. Hattie McDoogal*

        Wow I was not expecting such a thoughtful, detailed answer! Thank you so much, you’ve given me much more to think about.

    2. Spice for this*

      Office job – Follow-up with the person that interviewed you to get a status. And let them know that you are very interested in the job and looking forward to hearing from them. Good luck!

      1. Hattie McDoogal*

        Thanks – I’m generally disinclined to do this, especially since the person I interviewed with told me she was on vacation this week (but that hiring decisions would continue apace in her absence) but maybe I’ll try to drop her a line next week.

  131. mgguy*

    Something I’m wondering about if a workplace policy at my wife’s work is okay/legal.

    My wife is a nurse, and somewhat regularly is the subject of what, in any other job, would be considered assault. Kicking, scratching, and biting are all regular occurrence to the point that it doesn’t even register on her radar and she just accepts it as part of the job.

    Occasionally, though, she is on the receiving end of something really bad. Last week it was a punch to her face that left her with a mild concussion plus a couple other obvious injuries(black eye, bloody nose, etc). Aside from being expected to work out the remainder of her shift(something that just seems dangerous to me) she told me something last week that has really bothered me.

    Basically, the state where she works(we straddle a border, so live in a different state) is one of quite a few that makes assaulting a healthcare worker a felony. It’s pretty unusual that she even considers doing it, but this was a patient that had no underlying mental health issues or anything else that would cause them to act out-they just were upset with her and decided that was the appropriate response.

    Despite the law in the state, her hospital(the largest system in the state) does not allow employees to file charges against a patient. She brought it up in the context of “I think they’re going to get sued one day if something really bad happens” but she said it wasn’t a hill she wanted to die on. I respect that, but at the same time I hate seeing her come home from work almost every day looking like she’s been in a fight(which, well, I guess she has).

    There again, she’s not going to rock the boat, but is that an even remotely legal policy to have?

    1. Lady_Lessa*

      If she is vaccinated, then please encourage her to find another job. The hospital sounds like it is a bad place to work, since they forced her to finish her shift.

      1. mgguy*

        She got her vaccine in January-as soon as they offered it to her. She even worked vaccine clinics at the hospital for a while.

        The issue she’s running into is that there aren’t a ton of jobs within her specialty, and even though she’s applied and been offered a few jobs, all of them meant a pay hit(a significant pay hit-like 30-40%) plus she’d be back to working night shifts and other bad stuff. It seems that the hospitals around here, despite the fact that all of them are incredibly short staffed, haven’t gotten the memo yet that employees, especially ones with as much experience as she has, can pretty much write their own ticket.

        She wants to get out, and if this keeps happening we may just have to take the financial hit and live tight since that’s preferable to the chance that one of these days she’s permanently injured or killed to a patient assault, but she has to make that decision(I support her 100% whatever that decision is) and so far nothing has been compelling enough to pull her away.

    2. Alex*

      I’m not sure about the legality (or enforcability) of that policy, but I’m not sure that “having the ability to press charges” would really deter that kind of behavior from patients. The hospital has a responsibility to provide safety for their employees and is liable for injuries sustained on the job, I assume. Is she in a union? It seems like the larger problem is a general disregard for employees’ safety (requiring her to work with a concussion) that needs to be addressed.

    3. Choggy*

      My husband is a Psych nurse and one of the things that has always concerned me is that he could potentially get hurt. He’s got about 4 months to retirement, and he’s using up a many of his vacation/sick days as he can until then. He’s in shape, and a strong guy, but he’s older and has neck/back issues, some from the stress of working in a psych hospital and having to restrain patients. While he’s not been hurt, other nurses have, some very seriously. I absolutely hate that anyone would have to put themselves in harm’s way for a job that does not allow you to fight back or for which there are no repercussions. How did you find out your wife had a mild concussion?
      It is a huge red flag if they did not even let her get medical treatment and she had to do it after finishing up her shift. Concussions are not something to mess around with. I don’t know what the answer is, my husband has had good luck being able to move around into units where the patients are not as volatile but could still be pulled into units where there are problem patients. Is there a geriatric unit she could try to get into, the older psych patients tend to be more docile. Honestly, this may not be the specialty for her, if she’s an RN, there should be other opportunities open to her. I know RNs who went into administration with no patient contact at all. This is not the time to think there are no options, if getting punched in the face is not a wake-up call, I’d be afraid to think what would be.

      1. mgguy*

        Thanks for all the comments.

        Their occupational health clinic diagnosed her concussion(and she said the way she felt was consistent with that) but also released her to return to work that day.

        She called in the next day and fortunately wasn’t scheduled to work for 4 more days after but it counted as one of her “unexcused absences”…

    4. pancakes*

      This is so horrible. I hope she’s ok. I don’t know whether it’s legal or not, but I found an article on nurse dot org about assault at work, and it mentions an organization (and affiliated private Facebook group) for nurses called the Silent No More Foundation. The article on the nurse dot org site is called “Nurses Say Violent Assaults Against Healthcare Workers Are a Silent Epidemic.” I’ll link to it in a separate reply.

  132. moron5*

    I’m a tech lead on a project. I’m an employee of the company the project takes place in. I work with a team of developers, all of them are employees of a vendor located overseas.

    They aren’t good – and I’m being nice by saying that. Obviously, we are all humans and everybody commits mistakes, but these guys have to be babysat and controlled to a very high degree. They can code to some degree, but they seem to lack basic common sense. They make silly errors. Additionally, they aren’t reliable. They are e.g. to correct sth in several places. It happens frequently that they skip some. The only way to find out is to check all the places, for which I don’t normally have time.

    I’ve signalled that to my bosses, but they are cheap and have been with the company for a long time, so… No chance to change it. Now I receive a lot of emails with the highest lmanagement evel in cc saying :”I’ve discovered [this significant error] in your code base”.

    I know the code is of low quality. But: I’ve done everything I could to make the situation better (introducing good practices, trainings, checklists, demos) and I can’t do more. I will not spend my nights correcting their code, sorry. At the same time, I feel down. I’m doing a good job but everybody sees those emails about errors and I’m afraid I will lose my reputation.

    Any ideas on how to react to them? “I’ve signalled the team quality is low before” sounds defensive and unfriendly.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I’d phrase it differently, but I think it’s worth continuing to flag that this team the leadership insists on using produces poor quality. Some sort of boilerplate:

      “Yes, as I have flagged several times before, this team tends to produce code that needs significant reworking to be useable. I have put in what processes and protocols I can to try to prevent those errors, such as XYZ, but the vendor continue to make these errors. At this point, the company will need to decide whether this level of correction is acceptable or if we can find a different provider.”

      Just something that signals you recognize the issue, that you’ve done what you can to correct it, and that real change would need to come from above. If this is the first time you’re sharing what you’ve done to correct things, leave off the last part.

      Possibly relevant: Who is emailing you saying they found these errors and why are they cc’ing the higher ups?

  133. lurkin-since-2015*

    I think I messed up today. I reported someone for walking around unmasked multiple times to our really ineffective HR department, cc’ing the CEO like I was told to. However, I was really angry when I wrote the email and didn’t do the 87 proofreads I normally do so I ended up including something like “You said this would be taken care of and clearly, it has not” which apparently was giving the CEO a “bad attitude”. I talked to my boss and I’m not in trouble, I can also see how that is not the most professional — I usually stick to giving straight facts. However, I have Anxiety. This isn’t a big thing, right?

    1. ferrina*

      It’s a Thing, but it’s not a Big Thing.

      Will it raise eyebrows? Yep. Will they remember in a week? Nope. Unless you have a track record of being rude, this is generally a Stern Talking To About Professional Communication and keep an eye to see if this might become a trend. If you understand why that wasn’t good wording, are apologetic (you don’t need to email the CEO to apologize, just make sure your boss knows that you won’t do that again), and go forward with being a good employee, it will be water under the bridge.

      1. lurkin-since-2015*

        Thank you for commenting. I thought it was surely too late in the thread. I appreciate this point of view and it’s in line with what I was thinking.

        1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

          I think you could get away with a short apology to the CEO if it would make you feel better and bring closure to you. Just don’t dwell on it and don’t try to excuse it.

    2. Serious Pillowfight*

      Maybe this is off-topic, but it really irks me when CEOs are more focused on their egos than actual issues at their companies. While, yes, one needs to speak respectfully to others, especially management, I don’t think anything you said was particularly egregious. Why the focus on “an employee gave me ‘attitude’ how dare they, I’m the CEO!”, instead of having the presence of mind to look past that at the actual issue you pointed out?

      1. AnonymousToday*

        The CEO of our company who insists that we all come back to the office, walks around with no mask. A healthcare company.

      2. A Girl Named Fred*

        This was my thought, too. When I saw you didn’t proofread I was wondering what sort of rant accidentally slipped through, but that’s just a more sternly worded, “I have reported this behavior X times per our policy; if there is some other step I need to complete for action to be taken please let me know.” The fact the CEO is bristling that much about it reflects poorly on the CEO, not on you. Do take the talking to seriously, IE try to use the professional BS in the future, but also try not to let it get to you too much. We’ve all done similar things at some point or another, I know I sure have!

  134. Serious Pillowfight*

    I wrote in a few weeks ago asking for thoughts on what salary to expect in academia. Welp, y’all were right when you told me not to expect much. I recently learned my boss, who has an assistant director position, makes barely more than I make in my current media job. I was shocked. I figured she made $60-70K at least. It’s a lot less than that.

    I’m feeling bummed. I’d like to leave my current job, but it seems like I’d just be going from one frustrating, low-paying industry to another. I keep hoping for my “big break” and I see nothing on the horizon.

    I don’t understand how all these women I know are finding marketing and editorial positions at universities (granted, Ivy League ones and state schools) and making like $80K, but actual academic department assistant directors (at private, 4-year schools) are making like half that. With all the responsibility they have!

  135. Rainer Maria von Trapp*

    Any ideas on a possible new career path for an English teacher with 15 years’ experience? I have 3 degrees in the education and English fields. I’m falling apart and I just don’t know how much more I can take. I have a few ideas that are education-adjacent, but I’m wondering if there are fields I’m not thinking of!

    1. Serious Pillowfight*

      I realize I was literally just complaining about working in academia in the comment above yours, but you could consider being a professor of writing or composition at a college! No parents or other red tape that secondary education teachers have to deal with, from what I’ve seen.

      1. mgguy*

        And if parents do email you, the actual appropriate response(absent specific written instructions to the contrary) is no response at all. College students are generally adults, and per FERPA you need permission from the student to discuss their academic progress with a parent or anyone else outside the school.

        I’ve been in acadaemia for 6 years now, although only a year and a half as full time faculty(full time staff+adjunct work prior). It’s certainly not without its downsides, and yes the pay is not great compared to private sector, but there are a lot of benefits like the freedom to teach as you want(provided you’re following accredidation and institutional guidelines) and the shift in responsibility of students having to be their own advocates rather than having others set instructional guidelines for them.

    2. Alexis Rosay*

      You could look at education-y nonprofits. I went from teaching high school to managing a nonprofit after-school program for high school students. Nonprofits can be their own headache, but what I really needed was a change and not to be teaching, and it was that.

      1. pancakes*

        . . . has a lot of allure for bookish people but is notoriously low-paying and difficult to move up in. Have a look at a 2020 post on The Bookseller blog, which links to a salary doc that was circulating last year. The title is “Salary exposé circulates in the industry.”

      1. ferrina*

        My first thought was to lean on the writing strength. Technical writing, copy writing, editor (a good editor is worth their weight in gold.) I’d look at marketing positions- more plentiful, though the turnaround on deadlines tends to be fast.

    5. PollyQ*

      My sister transitioned from HS teacher into corporate education, and from there into program/project management.

    6. Anonymous Educator*

      When I quit teaching, I had a really hard time finding a non-teaching job, and the only way I could do it was to apply to lots of random stuff and see what I got. I ended up getting a job I was (on paper) not qualified for and that I had to take a huge pay cut for (yes, a pay cut from teaching!).

      I wish you the best of luck!

      1. Rainer Maria von Trapp*

        I’m with you on that — I am fortunate enough to work in a district that does pay well, and so I do have to talk with my husband about how much we can afford! But at this point, I’m so emotionally and mentally broken that I’ll work an extra job if I have to.

    7. Handheld Analog Calculator*

      I have nothing of substance to add to the thread, but this is one of the best usernames I’ve seen in a while! Hang in there!

    8. StacyPC*

      If you’re at all considering higher ed…. If you have at least a Master’s degree in Education, you could have a good shot at a full-time teaching position at a nonprofit teaching college, either a 2-year or 4-year. They may or may not require you to earn an EdD or PhD. If you have good data and/or writing skills, even better, because teacher ed programs have loads of national and programmatic accreditation requirements that burn through faculty. On the flipside, I’d be highly surprised if a postsecondary English department would even interview you without a PhD, unless you have an MFA. If you’re at all thinking of staying in K-12, a route to be a Professional Development Coordinator or Literacy Coordinator could be options, depending on how burned you are?

  136. Banditqueen82*

    Mine isn’t directly Friday related, but still falls under the “good news” umbrella – since the summer of 2020 until recently I’d been unable to keep a job for more than short spurts due to my chronic illness. After doing a lot of “self work” I heard from a family friend’s daughter that her dad (who I worked for from 2010-2012 and has known me since birth) needed part time administrative help via Zoom, mostly doing dictation and facilitating e-filing for certain cases that come up. I haven’t had a flare up of my chronic illness for nearly four months, when I was having them every 3-5 weeks for a few years. I’m hoping this part time gig lasts at least into the new year

  137. Anomalous*

    I just found out that my boss passed away this past weekend. He had been hospitalized, and we knew his condition was serious, but it still comes as a bit of a shock. He wasn’t a perfect boss (who is?), but he was very good, and he always had our backs.

    5. Chauncy Gardener*

      I’m so sorry! Please remember to let yourself grieve. Sometimes with work things we forget we still have feelings. Hang in there!

      1. Anomalous*

        Thanks everybody for the kind words. When Grandboss called on Teams, I knew what was up. We hadn’t had news from Boss in a couple of weeks, and he was never one to keep radio silence, even when on vacation. He didn’t talk about work when he off — sometimes it was hard to get him to talk about work during work! — but he always kept in touch. Still a shock, though. Thanks.

  138. Square Root of Minus One*

    Hope it’s not too late for me to ask, but I wonder…
    A few years ago, Alison called out readers for their “most unprofessional moments” and compiled the best stories. One of them was a reader who told his manager she was taking the rest of the day off because she was “feeling hateful”.
    Honestly, I get it was awkward and I would never say it outright myself, but I have to admit I get the feeling. Sometimes, I’m annoyed or angry enough that I just don’t trust my ability to be around others anymore. I feel I should just gtfo before I have to interact with someone and say something I will regret. There’s not even always a reason or someone or something to blame, it’s just a bad mental state and me being on edge. I just don’t have the emotional stamina, like in other circumstances I don’t have the physical stamina to walk the whole way from work to home. While the latter is easily understood, the former isn’t.
    How do you deal with those moments if that sounds familiar? If you have tricks, please share. I won’t be able to reply so thanks in advance, I promise I’ll read :)

    1. ferrina*

      Do you know what your triggers are? If you can recognize triggers, it can help to put in place strategies before you get to the breaking point. Like excuse yourself for a loooong bathroom break, or take a moment with something that relaxes you. If you are able to deescalate when you first recognize the triggers, it can keep you from going “red zone.”

      Deescalating also builds mental habits. I used to have serious anger issues. I could just snap. I also taught conflict resolution skills. One of the exercises we did was to think of anger like an escalator. You can go up a step or down a step. Take the time to learn what brings you down a step (hot cup of tea? a bit of breathing room? music?), and also try pulling yourself down a step without external cues. Catch yourself early, when you go to the first step. Focus on who you want to be and take one step at a time to get there. Listen to what your internal monologue is saying, and turn it into a dialogue:
      Me: Ugh, Sterling is the worst, I hope terrible things happen to him.
      Myself: Wow, it sounds like you’re feeling hateful right now.
      Me: Yeah, duh, Sterling is awful
      Myself: But that’s him. And you’re you. And right now you’re letting this hate dictate who you are. Is that really what you want to do? Who do you really want to be right now?
      Me:….I actually just want to listen to Halestorm and work on this report and not think about Sterling at all.

      It is going to be draining and hard, but it gets easier. You can build up emotional stamina, just like you build up physical stamina. And build in rest times, like you would with physical training- after an emotionally draining day, do whatever it is that helps you relax (and do it guilt-free).

      I’d also look up work on Psychological Resilience and Positive Psychology (aka, the study of happiness). There’s some cool science behind happiness and emotional resilience that could help with the day to day. I particularly liked studying neuroplasticity- it was reassuring to know that every time I deescalated myself (and it was so hard!) that I was establishing neural pathways that would assist in future deescalation.

      That said, sometimes anger is a symptom that something is going wrong, and that’s worth listening to. I assume that is not what you are talking about, but it’s always something to consider (rather than dismissing anger out of hand, which is the other extreme and also not healthy).
      Good luck, and sorry if I sound a bit like a Hallmark card!

    2. fueled by coffee*

      If you need to take a break, I just wouldn’t give a reason for it: “I need a minute before we begin. I’ll be back in five.” People will probably just assume you’re going to the bathroom or whatever; you can take that time to collect yourself enough to resume the conversation.

    3. Cookies For Breakfast*

      I struggle with this constantly. I have a lot of intrusive thoughts about being inadequate and stuck in a bad job for life, and some of my regular meetings amplify them to the point you describe.

      I’ve long wondered whether writing down my thoughts can help me understand them better in the long run. Yesterday, after a bad morning (vented with my partner for way too long, couldn’t focus again until after lunch), I decided to start. I filled a notebook page with everything that went through my head and what external event had me start spiralling. At the end, I closed the notebook and stuck it in a desk drawer, where I couldn’t see it for the rest of the day. Today, when I felt some of the familiar overwhelm take over, I did the same. I felt much lighter afterwards.

      It’s a small band-aid on what I realise is a way bigger issue. But I think part of what I was looking for was the comfort of having got those thoughts out of my head, without the guilt of unloading them on someone who can’t help, and without adding to the pressure I already feel by creating extra pressure to find the big, definitive solution before I can move on with my day.

      Hope at least a little bit of this can help you :)

    4. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      Ok, I don’t know anything about your body obviously but consider: In the last few months have you changed any medications (even same medication but a more or less expensive brand), added or subtracted any non-prescribed medications (eg vitamins, over the counter stress relief pills), used more or less weed or alcohol or caffeine etc, could you be menopausal, are you low in iron or vitamin d or is your thyroid glitchy – in short, can you have a medical check up and some blood tests if this is possible for you? No point looking for a psychological explanation if there’s a physical one to address.

      I take an over the counter stress reducing medication, ran out of it once, thought Oh, it won’t matter much – and within a couple of days I was getting terribly irritated even by my CATS doing their normal stuff, let alone by the extremely annoying people I worked with.

      And when menopause started – I had a couple of days at one stage where the hatefulness I felt towards others seemed so irrational and extreme that I couldn’t figure out how I would manage to go to work if I couldn’t tolerate even speaking to other people! Luckily that didn’t persist, but it is scary how hormonal things can impact mood.

      To manage my generally low threshold for annoyance, I do take the over the counter stress reduction pills every single day. I pay attention to the knowledge that I benefit from a lot of down time away from other people, and enjoy peace and quiet more than most people seem to. I say no to a lot of social interactions. I read a lot of books. I eat a lot of chocolate. I try to talk compassionately in my head about the people I have to deal with at work, and I am glad I don’t have to live with any of them.

      That “hatefulness” feeling was so unpleasant and distressing – and it was 100% worth paying serious attention to, for sure. Best wishes to you for your own solutions!

  139. Second Breakfast*

    Does anyone work in instructional design?

    I am a former high school teacher turned SAHM, and I am starting to contemplate returning to the workforce sometime next year. I keep seeing remote instructional design positions on job boards, and it feels like a natural next step for my skill set. The kids were great, but creating curriculum and materials was always my favorite part of teaching, especially once my school got 1-to-1 Chromebooks and I was able to set up digital projects and assignments.

    Most of these jobs are asking for previous experience in instructional design. Any tips for getting started and/or leveraging a teaching background for it? I am in a good position to pick up freelance projects and/or learn new software while home with my daughter.

    1. Cheezmouser*

      I work in an adjacent industry, so I don’t have specific advice, but I do have a question: don’t teachers do a lot of instructional design in their job? Does planning units and lessons and instructional strategies that you’re going to use to differentiate/scaffold learning count as instructional design? I’m asking because I’m assuming that being a classroom teacher would make you a great candidate for instructional design gigs because that’s a big part of your job as a teacher, and lack of classroom experience would likewise make you a poor instructional designer, but I could be wrong since I’m only in an adjacent industry.

      1. StacyPC*

        My experience with instructional designers in higher ed are they consult instructors in the design of online courses, like course organization, time on task, credit hour compliance (you don’t want students earning 3 credit hours for doing just 70 hours of work over 16 weeks), best practices (like don’t post 2-hour long lecture videos), ADA compliance, access to library services, integration of online features into curriculum, troubleshooting the LMS, helping revise course outcomes based on Bloom’s Taxonomy, etc. None of the instructional designers I worked with had more than adjunct-level teaching experience, but they had PhDs in various areas. Depending on the institution, the instructors may maintain academic freedom to write their lessons and teach the content how they want; at my institution, the instructional designers were in no way responsible for lesson plans, scaffolding, planning units, etc. That was the job of the subject matter expert/SME. This was just my institution and it very much depends on how the institution defines the role, the academic freedom of the instructors, and even how certain departments are used to assigning work to admins.

        OP – my only advice is to carefully read the job postings for each instructional designer position, as my sense, in looking at them myself in my area, is that each organization has different expectations for the role. I loved designing courses and I usually loved teaching, but I hated grading with the fire of a thousand suns…and I’ve never seen a (higher ed) instructional designer job description in my area that’s purely building courses and pushing out content. It’s all consultation and collaboration with instructors and administration, and often a whole heap of compliance with regional accreditation and NC-SARA requirements.

  140. Of Mindelan*

    I had an almost visceral negative reaction to a member of my team suggestion we do team building stuff. In my previous experience, no one ever really wants to participate in these things, and it’s a vague threat of not being a tram player if you opt out. Neither of us is team lead, I am deputy, mostly for when the team lead is out, so is a way I have positional authority over her. However, she is a higher pay grade, older with the experience that I frequently take into consideration, and I do value her inputs. Am I over reacting? Or is this a terrible idea

    1. WellRed*

      It’s not a terrible idea in and of itself based on what you say here. I’d focus on why she suggested it and what her ideas are (I don’t love it, but gather a bit more info).

  141. Me!*

    Pffffff.
    I had that interview I was panicking about. Many thanks to everyone who advised me last week. It didn’t go as well as the last one, but to be fair, they really blindsided me with that whole thing. They said they were still phone screening and the process could drag out to the new year. I really wanted to be onboarding and planning a move by then. :(

    I had another phone screen today for a PC job here that seemed okay, but unless they gave me the top of their range, the pay is just meh and still lower than average. And honestly, I would always be trying to get the hell out.

    I’ve decided to double down on applying out of state—I don’t want to get locked into a lease here, unpack, keep applying, and then turn around and pack and move AGAIN. Now is the time; I’m still packed, it would be easier to up and go. I might be tempted to do it here for a while if the pay were super great so I could save up a lot in a short period, but I don’t want to get stuck again. I need a lot of good things to happen very fast.

    Please send good vibes. >_<

    1. Cookies For Breakfast*

      Sending all the good vibes your way! This stuff always takes more time and uncertainty than we’d want. I hope you’re getting closer to a new job with every step, even if you don’t know it yet.

    2. Kathenus*

      Vibes sent! Having moved a lot I totally get how hard it is, the interviewing/waiting then the move itself. Job hunting over the holidays is the worst because it can take even longer. But hoping things work out just as you want :)

    4. Jean (just Jean)*

      Sending good vibes! Absolutely! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
      Also, +1 on everything that Cookies for Breakfast said, especially this part: “I hope you’re getting closer to a new job with every step, even if you don’t know it yet.”

      My next sentences are Unsolicited Advice, so feel free to ignore them:
      Are there any volunteer jobs you could do in your area in between job applications and interviews? There’s no money in volunteering, but maybe a regular non-paying gig would nudge the universe to move you to your next position of paid employment.

      Solidarity and (if you want them) e-hugs. I’m not seeking work at present but I’m doing my own slog through Un-Asked-For Circumstances.

  142. With a minor in sales*

    SO, I got an interview at a position selling life insurance. It seems like a pretty solid company, and I’m excited to be doing something that isn’t ringing in groceries. One problem though. Where I live, you must be a minimum age of 19 to sell life insurance. I’m 18, and my final interview is Monday, and I don’t know how to broach it. Should I tell them I’m too young during the interview? I didn’t realize there was this age limit up until this point, otherwise I would have said something sooner.

    1. fueled by coffee*

      A few thoughts: Yes, you should disclose this – this is not like pregnancy or a disability, where you might be worried about discrimination during the interview; rather, it’s a legal requirement to work in this job. You can always re-apply when you’re old enough. I’d phrase it like you did here: “I didn’t realize there was an age requirement, but from [information source] it seems like you need to be 19 to sell life insurance in [state]. I won’t turn 19 until [month], is that going to be a problem?”

      That said, when is your birthday? Can you negotiate a start date for after that (likelier if you turn 19 within a few months, or if they are constantly hiring new trainees)? Do you need any kind of training before you can actually start selling life insurance, and will the timing of this training carry you past your birthday? Can you ask about being considered for future openings?

      This is super frustrating, and if the job posting didn’t say anything about age and they haven’t asked you about it, it’s on them for not informing you. But it’s important to bring it up because you don’t want to waste your own time on this process (or worse, give notice at your current job) only to run into problems when filling out your hiring paperwork.

    2. PollyQ*

      Tell them right at the beginning of the interview (and you can use “I didn’t realize there was this age limit up until this point, otherwise I would have said something sooner.” verbatim), because if it’s an absolute disqualifier, then you’ll be wasting everyone’s time by waiting to raise it. Sorry, and I hope they find a way to make it work for you!

    3. Mockingjay*

      Tell them up front at the interview that you didn’t realize there was an age requirement and ask them how they want to handle it. Depending on when your birthday is, they might be able to work around it. My first job, which I could legally have done as a 17 year old, would have been a lot of paperwork for my manager and my hours would have been limited by law. My 18th birthday, however, was only a couple weeks after my interview, so the manager just set my start date for after my birthday. If your birthday is several months away, it might not work or you might have to reapply in a few months, but it’s worth a shot.

  143. Hiding from My Boss*

    Is it now a thing to call admins “partners”? My firm started doing that recently and now I’m seeing it in job postings (“In this role you’ll be a partner in the business development department with the Director and Chief Officer. Your important contribution will include answering phones, running errands, and typing letters.”) Who do they seriously believe they’re kidding? To me, partners are equals.

    A lot of our roles and titles have changed drastically with restructuring. Add Covid, and while we’re glad to have kept our jobs, the jobs have become very run-of-the-mill clerical work and our higher-up “partners” treat us like subordinates, even if they are not in the line of management.

    1. RagingADHD*

      That is just cringey.

      If you want admins to have dignity and feel respected, just…treat them that way. Don’t make up fake names, like they are children to be fooled into eating broccoli by calling it “tiny trees.”

      I agree that “partner” implies equal standing, and that makes it worse than just an odd or meaningless term.

    2. Cheezmouser*

      My company recently did this exact thing. I think titles matter, so “business partner” sounds better than “executive assistant.” Our EAs of course aren’t on equal footing with the execs they support (no one is, cuz they’re execs), but it signals to staff and external stakeholders that EAs are critical to the executives’ success and should be treated with respect. (*cough* Your somewhat demeaning comment about EAs mainly being responsible for answering phones and typing letters kinda proves the point that they need more respect *cough*)

      EAs are also typically not entry-level positions, at least in my organization. Most of our EAs are seasoned professionals with 10+ years experience. I think the EA role has changed from “answering phones, running errands, typing letters” to being the executive’s right-hand person. This means coordinating schedules and travel to get the exec where they need to go, supporting and preparing presentations, event management, handling confidential/legal matters, crunching the numbers for financial reports, and doing all the “work” the exec doesn’t have time to do because they’re busy leading. And while EAs are not in the line of management, they can wield enormous power and influence. If an EA asks me for something, I do it, because I do NOT want the EA turning around telling their exec “[Cheezmouser] didn’t respond to my request.”

      In short, everyone should respect EAs. This includes the company itself, by changing their title from lowly entry-level “assistant” to the more accurate “partner.” Because without the EAs, our executives would not be able to do what they do, which is lead.

      1. Hiding from My Boss*

        I gave an example of the kind of job postings I’ve seen using the “partner” title. It was not MY description. And not just as a substitute for EA but for all levels of “admin.”

        “Business partner” in my view is a complete misnomer, a lie even, for admin support staff. Sounds like yet another inflated title to make support people feel good and important, when their role and status is still making someone else look good so they can get ahead. If someone introduced me to their “business partner,” as I said, I would expect that meant they were equals in authority and status. Yes, people often point out the higher-level responsibilities and projects that are expected of EAs and other support staff, but honestly, how often does an admin actually move out of admin and up to an event planner or communications or business analyst role?

  144. StacyPC*

    I have a couple advanced non-doctorate degrees with professional licenses and have moved up to director/manager-level positions at two companies by climbing the ladder. My current position is non-administrative and makes good use of my licenses in a clinical role. I’m okay in my current position but am informally job hunting as a stress buster, and I’m finding myself unfailingly looking at entry-level positions and shying away from considering upper-level positions that match my degrees, licenses, and bona fide work experience. For example, over the summer, I applied for and was contacted to interview for a position (think Teapot Services Coordinator) and didn’t realize I was completely overqualified for it until the would-be interviewer called and stated their position; their position (think Director of Teapot Affairs) was more in line with what I should have been looking for. I declined the interview. Even knowing this, I still can’t get over the old habit of “start low and move up.” Any advice? Thanks in advance.

    1. Cheezmouser*

      Maybe ask yourself why you feel you’re not qualified when you are. There could be a lot of different possibilities: Are you risk-averse and afraid you won’t succeed in a higher role? Do you think you don’t “deserve” the higher role for some reason? Are you extremely methodical and have some weird mental block that says “you have to do things in order, and that means starting from the bottom”? Do you have general self-esteem issues, anxiety, imposter syndrome, etc.? Are you female? (Women tend to discount themselves more than men)

      If you can’t figure out what’s your mental block on your own, you may want to consider a therapist or career coach or leadership coach or similar. There’s something going on here, and it can hold you back not only in job searching, but advocating for yourself for promotions, raises, assignments, etc. It might be worth investing time to figure out what it is and how you can get past it.

  145. Mockingjay*

    How do I write a good resume when most of the jobs I’ve had were really terrible (retail/food service/etc), and my one “good” professional job (and the only one that was related to my degree – in my minor) was over 10 years ago and that position was cut? I’ve never worked in my main degree area (aside from occasional tasks in one fun, very wide-ranging but part time job), and I really, really need to get out of retail and into basically anything that pays more than what I make now (which, even with big raises in the last year is still only 1/3 median pay for my city.)

    I just feel stuck because even just listing my jobs, going back there’s 4 between current and that “good” job. Most are pretty random, and there’s some weird gaps where I was taking care of grandparents. Before “good” job, I worked 2 fast food jobs, the first of which the manager trusted me enough to do bank drops, which is more responsibility than a lot of the other jobs but it’s so long ago it really shouldn’t even get mentioned.

    1. dude, where's my cheese*

      – You need a really strong cover letter (see Alison’s advice)
      – You can structure your resume so your work history is in 2 parts,
      Relevant Experience
      (list professional job)
      and
      Other Experience
      (list last 3-4 jobs)
      – I’ll link a couple of Alison’s posts in a follow up reply

      1. dude, where's my cheese*

        Check these out if you haven’t already:
        https://www.askamanager.org/2020/07/heres-a-bunch-of-help-finding-a-new-job.html

        The comments in https://www.askamanager.org/2019/02/what-to-put-on-a-resume-when-you-have-zero-work-experience.html – how to tie your retail & food service experience to transferable skills, suggestions to start by applying for temp professional/office jobs

        https://www.askamanager.org/2015/11/how-much-do-resume-gaps-matter.html

        https://www.askamanager.org/2014/02/how-to-rewrite-your-resume-to-focus-on-accomplishments-not-just-job-duties.html

        1. Mockingjay*

          Thing is though, I can’t afford to do a temp job, and it’s likely I’ll have to switch fields anyway as that one professional job was a field with very, very few jobs that I happened to luck into one (volunteered for several months until they hired me, which, again, I can’t afford to do anymore.) And the “fun” job actually had the most varied skills. :/

  146. dude, where's my cheese*

    Question – if you’re applying for a remote job, and it’s a dealbreaker if it’s not remote, and it’s listed on Indeed as ‘fully remote’, NOT temporary for COVID, BUT the posting on the employer’s website doesn’t say it’s remote – should you mention remote work in your cover letter?

    &&& a Request – applied for a few stretch jobs this week, if you have any good vibes to spare please send them my way!

    1. SG*

      I wouldn’t mention it in the cover letter, but if you get to the interview phase you could clarify either before or during the interview. When someone contacts you about an interview, you could just say (or email), that you saw it listed as fully remote on Indeed but not the employer’s website, and that you just want to clarify. But mentioning it in the cover letter would be premature.

  147. Jessie*

    Started a new job this week, my first ever full time gig! I really like my boss, coworkers, and the work itself, but working a full eight hour shift five days in a row really kicked my butt lol. Does anyone have advice on adjusting to that nine to five life? Will it just get better with time, or is there anything I can be doing to actively manage my exhaustion so I can get other things (errands, cleaning) done during the week as well? And advice is appreciated. Thanks!

    1. Bamff*

      I found that laying out clothes for the next day and planning meals as helped me out a lot when trying to just not be tired.

      It does get better, so hang in there!

    2. Lady Danbury*

      It does get better. But also, give yourself grace to either outsource some tasks or just let them go. Historically, full time work was often supported by a spouse, family members or household help who handled many of the home tasks. The expectation that we do it all to a high standard is not only unrealistic but it’s literally killing us. I find that any hacks that make my home life easier (they’ll vary from person to person) make balancing work life easier.

      Some of the things that have worked for me include:
      -Having a bowl by the door where I drop my keys as soon as I enter. No more searching for the keys in the morning.
      -Capsule work wardrobe. This was a game changer for getting ready in the morning bc everything matches everything else and fits well. Review regularly (monthly or quarterly) to ensure that everything still fits and is in good repair.
      -Cleaning service. I do every other week but even once a month can make a huge difference.
      -Letting go of guilt for paying for convenience!!!! Whether it’s takeout, a cleaning service, whatever, many of us have this idea that not being able to do it all is somehow a personal failing.

  148. BAMFF*

    I’m trying to give my notice at work, but my supervisor and I work shifts where we seldom cross paths. She is also often out of the office for days at a time. I work in a medical setting but I’m not in direct patient care. I wanted to give a month notice as I know it’s not easy to hire right now.

    So my question is: How do I give notice? Email? Letter in her mailbox?

    Thanks!

    1. Chili pepper Attitude*

      Alison says I’m a situation like this, try a phone call or ask for a meeting. But if you have to, email.

  149. Worker bee*

    How would you handle a manager in another department who is pushy and seemingly refuses to follow procedures set up by another department?

    The employee was hired as staff a year ago and was recently promoted into management, but from almost the start of her employment, decided certain procedures “didn’t work for her”. One of those was how she made requests for llama treats. We have a generic, internal only email set up for fulfillment requests, which is checked multiple times a day by several people. Most everyone will sent a request of 15 X, 12 Y, 26 Z in one email and whoever checks the email will take care of it. She didn’t do this, so we’d get upwards of 8-10 emails from her, saying something like 2 X with the first email, 3 X with an email 3 minutes later, 1 Y and 3 X with an email an hour later, then 4 X and 6 Z in an email 20 minutes later. It caused much confusion, as we were never sure if this was a running total of items or if she’s adjusting the numbers.

    I finally asked her to stop all the emails and send just one a day, but I was ignored the first time and the second time I emailed her about it, I just got a “Thanks! :)”. When I was training someone new on the process, she sent a very confusing request that wasn’t ultimately filled “correctly”, so she sent a reply that was overly aggressive in tone and made the new person feel like they had made a huge error. I spoke to her boss about this, as her boss happens to be one of my mentors. I prefaced the conversation by saying I’m not tattling or complaining, but that it was a situation I would prefer to address myself, but wanted her feedback. She said I should handle it, but she wanted to be CCed on the email. It was apparently not well received, but she didn’t address it with us; she just complained to anyone who would listen that I wanted her job and was trying to sabotage her. (My mentor in the company is the woman who runs that department. If I wanted to join her staff, I could just ask her. I’m not creative in that way, so it’s fine for me.)

    This person is now in management and is starting to be up to her old tricks. She recently sent an email, wanting to know “who I need to talk to” in order to get things done correctly, with mild accusations of incompetence toward two people, one of which isn’t directly involved in this part of the process. I investigate and find that she sent a fairly demanding email recently that completely overstepped the scope of her job, which is why there was an error.

    I informed her boss of what I found and her boss sent a very lengthy email to her staff, to clarify procedures and stating that she had spoken to me. The response from this person was simply “Thanks!” with a smiley face. That seems to be her “go to” when she’s called out on things, which really puts me off. I find that off-putting and dismissive in this kind of context, as I feel that it’s her way of ignoring any clarification or correction about how she is doing things.

    I suspect things will be fine for a couple of months and then she’ll start this up again and I’m unsure how to address it when it comes up again. I have passed off this job to someone else who doesn’t know this person’s history (the new person was named as incompetent in this recent email), so I plan to talk to this person on Monday, as she won’t have all the context of the emails she’ll be reading.

    Frankly, if this happens again, what I would prefer is to have a meeting with the manager, her boss, HR, and me, so we can discuss how snarky, demanding, or implications of incompetence are not acceptable ways of communication, but I also feel that doing that might be overkill. Then again, an email stating they never received X, when it was clearly asked for yesterday, what happened/does anyone bother to read this?? isn’t acceptable, either.

    So, what would the AAM readership do?

    1. Tali*

      It sounds like reporting individual incidents to her boss is working–they get her to walk it back, clarify policies and so on. It’s not really up to you as someone in another department to train her to act right, and the problem may be just infrequent enough that its solution is not a priority for anyone.

      Sounds like informing the new person on how you’ve handled it is a good start, and if they continue to have trouble, you can back them up in raising the pattern to the manager. “This person has a pattern of communicating in inappropriate, hurtful ways to other staff and it not only poisons our culture, it hinders work collaboration in XYZ tangible ways…”

      1. Worker bee*

        You’re exactly right that it’s not up to me to train her and I think I needed that perspective, so thank you, Tali. I was very frustrated about the situation, since it took up several hours of my day. It’s no longer a job that I do day to day, but I’m the person who set up the procedures, which is why I was involved to begin with.

        This particular job fell into my lap a couple of years ago, after it was discovered that the person who was supposed to do it. . . just stopped doing it. It was a complete mess, with no tracking what had been completed, who did it, what needed to be done, etc.

        That said, I do think I will keep her manager in the loop (and will let the others know they can as well) if there are further emails that have a demanding or hostile tone and I really like how you phrased a potential email. And by that tone, I mean things along the lines of the email she sent to the generic email, which said, “X has happened and since no one apparently bothered to do Y, I need Y ASAP.” Y had been done and was on its way, but she shouldn’t be requesting Y to begin with and she is very aware of that.

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