open thread – November 5-6, 2021

by Alison Green on November 5, 2021

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Garnet, Crystal Gem*

    Hey AAM folks! I’m about 5 months into a contract role and will be converting to an FTE next month. I was recently reassigned a new manager, who isn’t new to the company but new to my team and people managing.

    The former part, the new to people management, is giving me pause and has admittedly tainted my view of this person. I’ve had horrible experiences with first time managers in the past and am bracing myself for the worst.

    All that aside, since this person is new to both the role and team, my last 1:1 with her involved a lot of questioning. I understand this is her way of info gathering and getting up to speed but it felt like an interrogation and like I was being assessed on my ability to answer her inquiries (likely a projection on my part).

    My therapist recommended flipping the script in our next 1:1 and coming to her with questions and also advised me to read some articles on leadership to try get a better understanding of her perspective so I feel less put on the spot.

    My question: Does anyone have additional input or recommendations on approaching this?

    Any good AAM posts or other articles about this topic? How should I lead the conversation so that I don’t feel ambushed? Also, does anyone have a script or anecdotal advice on how they approached teaching/coaching a new manager on how to work with them.

    For more context, I always come into my 1:1s with a prepared agenda of some sort. We’ve had two 1:1s so far, the first was more of a getting to know you chat, the second was pretty standard check-in that went from an organic conversation to me being barraged with questions.

    So far she hasn’t given me a reason to be concerned about her managerial skills…yet, but I still feel anxious.

    I’ve been really enjoying my work and the company so far, and the relationship I had with my former manager turned out to be one of the best I’ve had so far—it was a much needed break from the trauma I’ve experienced from bad managers.

    1. anonymous73*

      Honestly I don’t think her approach is a bad thing. She’s asking lots of questions to get to know you and the work that is being done – that’s how you learn. It may have felt like an interrogation simply because of the amount of questions. I wouldn’t write her off as a bad manager this early. Come to your meetings with your own questions – maybe examples of situations and how she would handle them – and give her some time to adjust.

      1. EvilQueenRegina*

        Having witnessed a situation where a new manager never sat down with her report who did finance and get any kind of sense of what she did, leading to a blowup when the manager, not understanding her workload, tried to assign her something impossible to fit into her hours, I do agree that asking about the work OP does is a good thing, I acknowledge how it could come over as an interrogation though.

      2. tamarack & fireweed*

        But putting a new-to-you report on the spot so that she feels like in an interrogation is quite manifestly not a good thing! I wouldn’t go right to “bad manager”, and the OP isn’t, but the manager started this out quite badly.

    2. Murfle*

      I don’t have any advice, but I do want to commend you for being aware of your reaction and how your previous experiences have influenced them.

      1. Garnet, Crystal Gem*

        I really appreciate this! I’m doing my best to keep my personal history and feelings in check, so that I actually give this woman a fair chance

        1. Fran Fine*

          Yes, please do give her that chance. One of the best managers I ever had was a first time manager, and I would have ever known that if he hadn’t told me himself that he’d never managed a team before. He just had an innate ability to listen, lead, and inspire.

    3. Liv*

      I think what you really need to do is give this person the benefit of the doubt. You’ve had bad experiences with first time managers in the past, but there’s no reason to believe that this person will be awful just because they’re new!

      When you say you felt interrogated, was it the tone/type of her questions, or was it just that there was a lot of them. If the latter, then again, I’d give her the benefit of the doubt. It was only the second 1:1, and like you said she was just trying to get the lay of the land.

      As for advice – it’s not your job to teach or coach her as a manager. But you can certainly give her feedback and ask her questions. As you get more used to working with her, this will come naturally, but for your next 1:1, maybe try asking her some questions:

      1) about her leadership style (“Since we’re new to working together, I’m just curious as to what your leadership style is like so I can get a better view of how we can work well together”)

      2) what she’d like to see from you in the next 3/6/12 months (“So that we get off on the right foot, can we talk about my objectives for the next X months so I can make sure we’re on the same page as to what I should be going after”),

      3) If there’s anything partiuclar she’d like to cover in these 1:1s so you’re both getting the most out of them

      Her answers should give you a good insight into what she’s like (or hopes to be like at least) as a manager, and then you can go from there.

      But honestly it just sounds like you’re judging this poor woman on past experiences, which is more of a you problem than a her problem! It’s a totally natural thing to do if you’ve been burned in the past, but try to judge her on her actions rather than your fears.

      1. Garnet, Crystal Gem*

        When you say you felt interrogated, was it the tone/type of her questions, or was it just that there was a lot of them.

        Honestly, it was both. Tone and also the volume of questions.

        Thanks for this—all great advice. I’m going to need more prep (professionally and emotionally) going into these conversations moving forward.

      2. Purple Cat*

        “it’s not your job to teach or coach her as a manager”

        I would gently counteract this point. Yes, you aren’t the one officially responsible for developing this person as a manger, that’s the grand-boss job, but the manager-employee relationship is a 2-way street. If Garnet needs more guidance and specific direction from her manager, she needs to raise that point. If she wants to be more self-directed than she needs to raise that point. Managers should adapt their styles to what their individual employees need, and Garnet needs to help shape that style for her.

    4. R*

      It might help if you ask her to provide you with her questions ahead of time. If you have time to prepare, it may feel less like an interrogation. You can then also plan an agenda around her questions, so you both get what you want from the meeting. But really, she is new to the team, it’s very natural that she would have questions.

    5. Lurker*

      I think that another thing that might help is if you said to her in advance something along the lines of “I’m putting together a quick agenda for our 1 on 1, do you have anything that you would like to cover/add to the list? I am asking because you had a lot of questions on X process during our last 1 on 1, and thinking about it after the fact, I think I could have answered you better/more fully if I’d had an opportunity to prepare a bit”.

      1. anon today*

        Agree — while you come with an agenda, are you communicating it ahead of time?

        Also, do you know what kinds of pressures she’s under? What’s the “question behind the questions”? Is she getting grilled in meetings for progress reports on your work? Does she feel like she doesn’t know your work well enough? As a manager of six-ish people, I am asked at all sorts of meetings for impromptu updates on the work of anyone I supervise, so I’ve definitely had to work to establish the right balance of “Hey, I need aaaaalll the details on this project this week because it’s caught the eye of the C-suite; no I don’t want to micromanage you but yes I need to know everything.”

      2. Mockingjay*

        Or, during the barrage, ask her if you can get back to her on a couple items. “Let me pull last month’s sales numbers so you have the latest figures; I’ll send them to you this afternoon.”

        Sometimes a “laundry list” of questions is simply how someone new remembers to cover everything. Waiting to verify something shows her that you are conscientious and can be relied upon to provide her with solid information, so she can check those off her list. She’s in a new role and is probably nervous or uncertain.

        Try to reframe this as an opportunity to build a relationship with her. Start by presuming the best intentions and look for ways to help her. Keep it process-related for now. What info does she routinely need? What tasks are urgent? How does she get that? Database, process, report, weekly meeting? Let her know that you are comfortable handling X, Y, and Z as normal duties, but you’ll always loop her if you encounter a problem. And so on.

        Be open to changes she wants to make. She may have different ways of doing things that were successful in her former department (she did get promoted, after all) and that may work very well for you and your team. Some ways are simply going to be her preferred methods of executing a task. Not right or wrong, just different.

    6. Canonical23*

      I think it’s good that you recognize that it seeming like an interrogation could be a projection on your part. It’s never good to make assumptions about new managers – I’ve had bosses that seemed amazing and a few months in turned out to be horrific and vice versa.

      I also think your therapist had excellent advice. Ask her questions in your next 1:1 about what she thinks her management style is, what plans she has for the department, what expectations she has right now and what expectations might change within the next 2-3 years. Big picture questions like that can give you a good insight into a manager – and if she’s a good manager, she’ll appreciate those questions because she knows that you’re trying to learn her goals and preferences and make sure that everything’s a good fit

    7. pancakes*

      If you think that feeling like you’re in an interrogation is “likely a projection,” you should probably be working on projecting less rather than leaning into the projection. Leaning into it / taking it seriously is not compatible with unburdening yourself of it.

      1. Momma Bear*

        It sounds to me a bit like a new manager getting their feet wet/getting up to speed on a project, and you learning a new person/new routine. Is this manager asking for agendas? Or is this not something they’re going to use going forward? Maybe start there. If you’re on the same page upfront, it should be easier to get through the 1 on 1.

        I’m currently working with someone that came in to the company about 3 months ago and took over a program. I wish they would sit down and ask questions because they appear to be going off half informed and it’s causing a lot of problems. Maybe she’s trying to avoid that.

        IMO, give it a little more time and ask your own questions.

      2. The Vulture*

        I feel like this is a rude thing to say!

        1. She talked to her therapist about how to handle it, so, she is getting whatever therapy advice she needs from that person.

        2. Her therapist advised her on how to handle it and she is asking for advice on how to implement that

        3. To me there is no evidence she is “leaning into it”, she is taking action to combat that feeling by looking at it from her supervisors perspective and asking questions to feel more in control and understand better.

        What action are you advising she take that you feel her therapist missed to that would be helpful for her to “work on projecting less”?

        1. pancakes*

          It’s not my intention to be rude and I don’t believe I was. Direct, yes, but that’s different.

          1. Not every therapist is a good therapist, and OP’s therapist’s suggestion to read up on leadership in order to try to get a feel for the manager’s frame of mind seems unhelpful to me. It’s vague (there’s an awful lot of material on leadership out there! where to begin?), it’s time-consuming, and it won’t necessarily or directly address OP’s anxieties or misgivings about these meetings.

          2. Yes, and that’s what we’re all responding to.

          3. I could’ve been clearer on this. What I meant is that OP seems to be leaning into their projections by saying, in essence, the feeling that I’m being interrogated is “likely a projection,” but this feeling is here and I can’t do anything with it besides try to turn the tables on her by asking questions of my own. There are other ways to handle that conflict. Learning to feel more at ease with the discomfort of being asked questions rather than trying to gain the upper hand, for example. OP seems to feel anxious about these conversations because they’re not in control of them, and their therapist is apparently telling them to try to gain control instead of teaching them to how to live with the feeling of not being in control. You can’t be in control of meetings with your own boss all the time, though, for starters! Or in many, many other scenarios and events in life. My advice would be to look into ways to soothe yourself and feel more at ease with not being in control rather than trying to look into ways to gain and keep control, and maybe consider a new therapist if the current one isn’t helpful with that.

    8. Agency Survivor*

      I like the idea of having a working agenda–this has been useful for me. A sharable document is really good for this (I’ve used a spreadsheet as a status update.) Then you’ll know what you’re covering in advance.

      She might just be info-gathering right now…I think questions can be a good thing and (usually) show you have a good listener.

    9. Pam Adams*

      Maybe be prepared with a longer description- walking through situations with their multiple steps- “Let me show you how I manage this process,”

    10. Purple Cat*

      Don’t be afraid to ask for a pause in the middle of your 1:1 if manager is firing off a lot of questions. Even make a joke about it! “Phew, it’s starting to feel like an interrogation with all these questions! *chuckle*” Can we focus on “insert specific topic” first?

      It might feel rough, but it IS a good thing that your manager is trying to learn more about the department AND you as she settles into her role. And great job acknowledging how your past experiences might be influencing your perception of this situation.

    11. I'm Done*

      I’m someone who asks a lot of questions because I tend to look at things holistically and it’s the way I process data and connect the dots. But I know that some people in the past have felt that I was attacking or interrogating them when I was simply trying to figure out the process and assess whether it makes sense to me. Obviously, not knowing your manager, there’s no way to know if she ticks the same way I do but maybe give her the benefit of the doubt or just straight out ask her. I would be happy to explain how I tick if someone asks.

    12. Quinalla*

      What would help me is to go into these meetings with information I wanted my new boss to know. She has questions sure, but what do you want her to know about your role? What is most important. If you approach it this way it will be more like information sharing than an interrogation.

    13. tamarack & fireweed*

      I nearly forgot this, but reading through the answers…

      Before I went back into academia, I took a job at a hosted software company – relatively hip US company, growing European office, trying to stay committed to employee-friendly values. They had an “unlimited vacation” policy and in general during the interviews presented themselves as highly protective of employee well-being. I was to be managed out of the US, but people with a similar role were managed out of the UK, and their boss, together with my would-be US grand-boss hired me … and at the same time hired the man who would be my US boss. (The team in the US was much larger so there was an additional layer of management.)

      Anyhoo, I told my interviewers that I had a vacation already booked for about a month into my job (I was in a long-distance relationship with someone in the US at the time), and both said that *of course* this would be no issue at all. But once my boss was on board, about a week or two after me (and I got to co-interview him – he seemed ok to me), he was waffly about it. It clearly didn’t fit his idea of how a new employee should behave, to take a vacation within their probation! I went to the two more senior managers who interviewed me, who I both liked personally a lot. My grand-boss said that *of course* I should take my vacation and she would address it with my manager (who was in her office anyway – we hadn’t even met in person). She also said “when we hire new people from the tech industry here, they sometimes don’t know how we do things at [company]”. I don’t think my manager survived his probationary period, in any event, the UK office was growing and I was reassigned to report to the UK director who interviewed me.

      1. tamarack & fireweed*

        (Disclaimer – I’m not a fan of the “unlimited vacation” policy. But I do think that the company tried earnestly to be a force for good, being hampered by this being basically impossible. People I worked with back then 10 years ago are still there and sound happy.)

  2. Dino*

    Have you ever gone over your boss’s head? If so, tell me about it. What was the situation and the outcome? Would you do it again?

    1. addiez*

      I once had to recommend to my skip-level boss that he fire my boss. I’d reported to the skip-level on an interim basis while my boss’s role was vacant, and I preceded him at the organization by about a few years. We were a little desperate, and brought someone in without checking references. Turns out, big mistake. We were in fundraising and he regularly made mistakes in proposals and typos/spelling errors in donor mailings. I eventually started documenting to raise the issue to my skip-level, who sat in a different office and didn’t see us day to day. A coworker and I sat the skip-level down when he came into town and talked him through the issues, and they ultimately decided that the new hire couldn’t do the work. He still works in fundraising elsewhere which really does confound me.

    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      Once, my team went to the director when our manager’s behavior meant that we would not meet a contractual obligation we had with the federal government. We were given direction to continue as we originally planned, & the manager was removed from her position not long after. She bounced from place to place in the company & was eventually fired.

      We definitely did the right thing, but we discussed it ahead of time & knew how serious it was & that we needed to have a united front.

      Nobody cared when she mistreated her staff, but holding up a deliverable that was really important to our contract was another story.

    3. Drago Cucina*

      I once made a formal complaint to the a library board member about the director. I made an appointment off site and had a list of concerns about things that would cause legal issues for the library. While I had a lot of personal issues that I could address I tried to keep it to it to a pattern of behavior with multiple employees. Telling someone that she had to wear make-up when it was against her religious beliefs. Telling someone else that she wasn’t allowed to wear a color because the director didn’t personally like it and told her she wasn’t allowed to be friends with someone the director didn’t approve of.

      While nothing immediately happened it did go into her evaluation that pushed her toward making a decision to retire. I am glad I did it because while it wasn’t perfect and didn’t address my conflicts with her I felt a lot better for not remaining silent.

      1. Leela*

        telling someone who they can’t be friends with? what color to wear? That you have to wear make-up at all, but even when it’s against someone’s religious beliefs? this person’s behavior is way out of line

        1. Leela*

          although I have definitely run into managers who think their employees, *especially* their female employees, are dolls for them to dress up and direct around on an extremely personal level that isn’t about work

        2. Meep*

          My former manager is extremely abusive. During the pandemic, she informed me that I shouldn’t be talking to anyone but her, not even my own mother to cover up her abuse. Unfortunately, there are evil people out there.

          2. PT*

            I had one boss- also abusive- who used to keep the security camera homepage up on her second monitor so she could keep track of which employees were talking to each other. She didn’t want people comparing notes on her, and she’d come up with ways to interrupt if she felt the people she saw mixing were a threat.

            Another place I worked encouraged employees in different departments to be skeptical of each other and be siloed/work against each other, again to cover up the various abuses going on from the two facility directors.

            It’s a common tactic.

            1. Green Beans*

              Oh yeah. Our toxic associate director wants to be talking to everyone but doesn’t want us talking to each other.

    4. ONFM*

      I had to make a formal notification to by grandboss due to my boss’ egregious conduct. (Blatant policy violations; only through the intervention of another party was something truly disastrous avoided.) I did address it at the earliest possible moment with my boss directly; his response was to scoff and say he didn’t answer to me, then stalk out of my office. So I notified the Big Boss. Nothing happened, and I would not do it again. I found another job and left six months later.

    5. BayCay*

      I don’t know if this counts as going over a bosses head technically, but I did apply to a role once within the same division but a different department. I didn’t think he needed to know; it was a toxic environment and I was worried he would take it badly if he knew I was looking around. Somebody on the hiring team told him I had applied and interviewed; in retrospect, I should have known it might go that way. He was really mad and butthurt to hear I was looking elsewhere.

      I don’t really regret not telling him, because I think he would have been upset either way I approached it, but it did really turn me off from the company in general and I officially quit soon after.

    6. RJ*

      I was in a contract where the role involved a rigid, three-times-a-year cycle. There were a lot of rules, regulations, and deadlines because not doing these things would result in the whole cycle failing. But, some departments were not at the same capacity as others, so failed to see why they had to follow the rules (because it was possible to bend those rules and not have the cycle fail for those departments). My first cycle, I enforced the rules because that was what I was trained to do. But my manager (who started just after me) totally buckled and gave the other department what they wanted when their director called and yelled at him. It made me look like a total fool. My second cycle, I sent him an email that basically said, do you want me to enforce the rules, or give them what they want? I will do as directed, but whichever way it goes I need to know you’re going to back me on it or you completely undermine me. You can guess what happened – he said to follow the rules, the director called him, he told me to do what she wanted. He came to my cube about it and I basically told him, I emailed you so this wouldn’t happen and you told me you had my back. My hint that others were struggling came when he left and people were giving me supportive looks and miming applause in our open-plan office.

      I gave my notice shortly after, but on the way out I went to his boss and told her exactly what happened, and offered to send her the emails if she wanted them. She was completely supportive and was disgusted by his behaviour. I found out he got fired a few months later. Knowing this I would have spoken up sooner and maybe not left before my contract was up – his boss couldn’t know there was a problem if no one told her.

    7. Allie*

      Ahh core memory unlocked. I work for a small state trade association. Our President & CEO was truly one of the most horrible people I have ever encountered. Honestly I don’t think this comment box is long enough for me to explain how bad he was. Just sexist, cruel, and truly just felt that everyone around him was incompetent. After several months of discussion, the entire staff went to the Executive Committee and telling them what it was like in the office, that it was a rare day if someone didn’t end up in tears. This started a year long process. He was put in leadership training (didn’t work), he was repeatedly talked to by the Executive Committee, etc. Finally, he was fired about a year and a half ago. Things are so much better now, our new President & CEO is one of the most kind people I have ever encountered and trusts everyone to do their jobs. It’s such a refreshing change of pace and we have been able to actually accomplish things rather than just treading water trying to stay afloat. Except now horrible boss now works for one of our members so we all still have to deal with him regularly. He is still forbidden from discussing anything outside of a specific request with any of us as part of his separation agreement.

    8. J.B.*

      Yes. I was young and idealistic and thought the big boss would do something about the jerky manager. Well she did get a talking to about the sexual harassment but nothing else changed. Big boss couldn’t see wrong for long in the level just below. Now that I am older and somewhat wiser I set my own boundaries then move on.

    9. Anonononononymous*

      I’ve done this twice and both times it worked out.

      First time I was one of the organizers for a large group of us going to my boss’ boss. Old boss was terrible. She was a bully. She tried to emotionally manipulate people. And she was incompetent at her job. We went to the grandboss and while it took longer than we would have liked (government job), she was put on a PIP and eventually let go.

      More recently I went to my current boss about my supervisor. Again, it wasn’t just me – my team and other folks in our management were also letting my boss know how incompetent supervisor was. Again, it took WAY to long, but she was also let go.

      Thing is, in both situations. we went as a group and had multiple people at multiple levels discussing the issues. And in both cases, the person we were going to was competent and willing to listen and act, and we had some trust already built up.

      I personally would do it again. But for folks who have been burned doing this kind of thing, I totally get why they wouldn’t.

      1. Fran Fine*

        Yes, it makes all the difference in the world when you have support while going around your immediate manager.

    10. Sleet Feet*

      I had a manager who was bullying me, although I didn’t recognize it as that at the time. I went to her boss looking for solutions, and was basically called a liar. He stated that he had worked with my sucky manager SM for years and no one had ever complained about the things I was complaining about (too numerous to name but the worst of which was not accommodating a medical need, and allowing another coworker to harass me by sabatoging my work on the server, and literally coming over to my cubicle to scream at me. That coworker actually ended up stalking me for 5 years after I left the company – he had a serious hate on that SM emboldened.).

      After going to him I learned that he and SM were attached at the hip. Essentially whenever he moved or got a promotion he brought SM with him within a month. This worked out for me in the end as he left the company after 6 months and she left with him. My new boss shut down the harrasing coworker and overall drastically improved my work situation. She was able to kill my raise on the way out the door though. My new boss gave me a 5 and she gave me a 1 so it averaged out to a 3 even though I had literally saved the company over $300M that year, and my coworkers next best amount was $124k. Real salt in the wound that I only got a $1,000 raise that year.

      I personally have never complained to a skip boss again, but if I were in a position where I thought I needed to I would ask around to try and get some information about their work history first.

      However I’ve never seen complaining to a skip boss go well. Even great skip bosses want to support the managers beneath them. Their sympathies tend to lie with the boss. Usually I’ve seen some serious retaliation after a complaint, and by then the victim feels they have no one to turn to since the skip boss handled it in a way that lead to retaliation in the first place.

      In short, if a boss is bad enough that their boss needs informed, then the skip boss is already failing to do their job and manage their direct report. Being the messenger to flag that probably won’t achieve anything but grief for you.

    11. loislolane*

      Yes, because they were denying vacation time for the entire team on the basis of not having enough staffing. They then promptly went on vacation themselves.

      The entire team sat down with our boss’ boss about that and about some other complaints we had.

      She was gone shortly thereafter.

    12. Daffodilly*

      Yes, once. My boss was going through chemo and trying to do it all but was struggling with brain fog and exhaustion. Mistakes were happening and were impacting the team and the clients. I went over her head to alert her boss to the issues and ask for advice on how to handle it while the situation was ongoing. We worked out a temporary plan, and when boss beat chemo and was back at normal functioning we stopped the workaround. Not sure boss ever knew. 100% would do it again if I was in a similar situation. But I also knew all the people involved, knew they cared and would handle it with compassion and grace.

    13. The Dogman*

      One of my bosses at the burger chucking place with a gold logo was married to a junior manager. That junior manager was leading an “in” group based on MeanGirls or something similar.

      She was bullying, harrassing and ultimately sexually harrassing staff members and complaints resulted in her husband denying everything and firing the complainant.

      I went to the area manager with the support of some staff and other junior managers, the AM and I had built a good relationship as I had been calm in a previous crisis (robbery) and stopped the corporation losing money (I was actually just defending the other staff, but a by product was no money lost and 1 criminal arrested).

      I gave him audio, video and written evidence and pointed out if the bully and the boss didn’t get let go the rest of the staff were ready to walk.

      He took it seriously, fired the JM, reassigned the boss to a non-supervisory role and got us a lovely store boss who did a lot to undo the damage the previous couple had done.

      He also got a “no married managers in the same store” policy enacted to prevent this sort of thing in future, which I thought was a good touch.

    14. Leela*

      My boss was lying about my work to other people in the company to cover up her own mistakes/poor judgement. It would usually be that she’d get in a work item and ask me to do X, which I would do, she’d say it was done well, good job, etc. She’d take it to the person who gave it to her who would get upset because they’d wanted Y and told her that very clearly. She’d lie and say that she told me Y, and that I’d done X anyway, and she’d tell ME that she’d told me Y when I knew that wasn’t true and when I’d go over what she’d said she’d deny it. Eventually I insisted that any instructions she gave me were in writing, and then when this happened again I’d show her that she had literally told me X and not Y, and then she refused to ever give me anything in writing again. This happened over and over, trashing my reputation at this company. She was FT and I was a temp to hire, hoping to get hired. I went to her manager and told her what was happening, and brought the writing. Grandboss told my manager about it, my manager got furious and guilt tripped me saying didn’t I know how BAD it made her feel, it felt like she got punched in the stomach to have to hear it (not my problem…), she then totally shut me out of work and claimed I wasn’t working, and I never made it to being hired. I learned later something similar had happened to both the person before and after me.

      Would I do it again? Not in this particular instance. It changed nothing and only caused problems for me. I do think it was *warranted* but I’d scrutinize my own situation and how well I think my grandboss can actually handle an issue before bringing it up again. I also found out that grandboss had gone on and on to my boss about how bad my issue made Grandboss feel, because my boss was making grandboss look like a bad boss and it was all boss’ fault. This would appear to be their whole conversation, nothing along the lines of “you can’t lie about Leela’s work to other people in this company to cover up for the fact that you misunderstood or didn’t ask clarifying questions”

      1. curiousLemur*

        “my manager got furious and guilt tripped me saying didn’t I know how BAD it made her feel, it felt like she got punched in the stomach to have to hear it” Sounds like the equivalent of a bully being annoyed that he hurt his hand punching someone.

      3. Fran Fine*

        It sounds like a blessing in disguise that you didn’t make it to a permanent role in that place. Can you imagine how much worse this situation would have gotten had you been hired on and still worked for this person who lied all the time and a grandboss who basically helped her double down on that foolishness because it made him look bad to his own boss? Too much dysfunction in that situation – bullet dodged, even if it didn’t feel like it at the time.

    15. LKW*

      Once. I’ve mentioned it here before. My manager was leaving for three weeks to get married. I was supposed to be leaving the project, at the client’s request, in that time. The day before he left he gave me a performance review that was vicious. It made some relevant points, but with no context and not in a constructive way. Taken at face value, I would have been put on a performance plan or just tossed.

      Rather than accept it I raised the issue that the language used, the lack of communication and other facets was unacceptable and unprofessional. I not only went to his boss, but threatened to go to the big big boss. Skip boss was amenable to working on the language, especially because I was on the project as a favor to skip boss. During those three weeks, the client came back apologizing for overreacting, realized their mistake, noted the value that I was bringing and asked me to stay.

      When my manager returned he found me still there and I no longer reported to him and now reported directly to skip boss.

    16. Jay*

      Yup. My current boss had been with us about three months and it was clear he had terrible communication skills and made decisions off-the-cuff and then had to walk them back. One of our employees was being bullied and his response was essentially “boys will be boys” (Boss and Bully are the only “boys” in the clinical part of our region out of about 25 people). Bully’s manager and I are at the same level – she asked me for advice and we decided to go to grandboss. In the course of that conversation we mentioned the precarious state of our major contract. Grandboss said “What are you talking about?” Well, Boss told us we were at high risk of not being renewed….Grandboss literally sat with her mouth open and stared at us. We’d already been renewed.

      A lot changed after that. Boss is still problematic in some ways but overall it’s much better and I would absolutely do it again.

    17. Sled dog mama*

      Reported my boss for falsifying time cards, assigning hours to the wrong cost center and removing overtime (both authorized and unauthorized).
      Totally blew up in my face because the company didn’t care the first thing they did after I reported him was call him and tell him I reported it and he immediately came to me wanting to know why I had gone over his head rather than asking him to fix it (I had previously asked him to fix a time sheet of mine that I thought was a mistake but when it happened multiple times in a row I realized it was deliberate. When I reported it I had been gathering evidence of him doing this to multiple people for 6 months)
      I would do it again for sure, mostly because I learned that the place was full of bees and that HR didn’t care about complying with the law on overtime. They trumped up something to fire me “for cause” a few months later. When I tell people what they fired me for I I get either laughter or the most confused WTF look.
      They fired me for something like completing a to-do item that I could see a coworker had completed but forgotten to sign off on, he was on vacation so rather than let it dangle I completed the to-do item, they accused me of falsifying records even though that to-do item would never be considered a record of who did the task, especially since coworker had to sign 6 different places to complete the task.

      1. Miles*

        Depending on what records you were able to recover this is something the DoL (for the fraud) and an attorney (for the owed wages) would have loved to address.

    18. KatieP*

      One time comes to mind. I had a coworker (RCW1) with a habit of telling racist jokes during staff meetings. The first time she did it, none of the supervisors were present. Since she and I shared a boss, I told our boss.
      Nothing happened. Then I ended up in a car with my boss and another coworker (RCW2) and they were both using racial slurs. Telling them that they both knew it was wrong to do that only made them dig their heels in. Since it would have been the two of them against me, I didn’t report it.
      Then RCW1 told another racist joke during a staff meeting with my boss present, and a colleague in another department was the subject of the joke. The boss did nothing. One of my coworkers (RCW3) laughed. Oddly, RCW2 looked uncomfortable.
      I reported that incident to the Director (I was already on my way out, and had serious IDGAF-itis at that point).
      He sent out an email reminding people not to be unkind. That’s it.
      I was already actively looking for a new job, because openly racist comments were just part of the toxic environment in that office. I found a new job a few weeks later, and I’m so much happier here!

      1. Coffee Bean*

        That is truly awful. I am very glad that you got out of there. I hope your coworkers’ atrocious behavior came back to bite them eventually.

      2. Meep*

        Gosh. Got to love the office bigot. My former manager KNOWS my best friend is Muslim and Sudanese. She complained once about how there was a bunch of Muslim women hogging the pool due to a kid’s birthday party. She then insisted it was so very strange that there was not a single Muslim man in sight and they must be all upstairs planning a terrorist attack. I was shocked. Not as shocked when she “apologized” the next day because she didn’t want to be “seen” as a racist before launching into “But you have to understand, Meep, there were no men there. They must have been all upstairs planning a terrorist attack.” This was over the phone so I promptly hung up on her. Unfortunately, this woman is “HR” so there is no one to report her bigoted butt to.

        And truthfully, this wasn’t the most bigoted thing she has said.

    19. Water Everywhere*

      Half above, half sideways (small company) and would definitely do it again. A male vendor was stalking & harassing my female coworker via message & social media. Coworker was very upset one day, this is how I found out about the harassment and also that it was not a new thing and people knew about it (I was fairly new at the company) & had brushed it off. Including our mutual manager (also a woman) whose attitude on this day was along the lines of “women just have to deal with this”. I was LIVID and next day brought my concerns to another manager who though not directly above mine did have more interaction with the CEO. Framed it as a health & safety issue for coworker and a reputation issue for the company (angles that hadn’t occurred to them before; you should have seen the widening eyes as it sunk in). To their credit they were 100% on board with putting a stop to it. I don’t know what happened after that meeting but we never used that vendor again in the years since.

    20. Elle Woods*

      I have. In a nutshell, a colleague of mine was sexually harassing me and most of the other women in our department. Long story short, my boss chalked up the harasser’s behavior as part of his personality and said that we all simply “misunderstood” harasser’s behavior. The following week, I brought the documentation I had recorded about this person’s behavior–including sexually explicit emails–to my grandboss. Grandboss was horrified and said he’d handle it. Harasser was out of a job by the end of the day. I would absolutely do it again.

    21. Anon For This One*

      This is pretty extreme but I went to my bosses boss when a former manager was being very belittling to me. It went on for about a year and a half, and then one day I’d had enough. I had spent so long being afraid to say anything, and I think I had gained more confidence and he had this pattern where he would sort of hold me hostage in a conversation and not “excuse” me until I said he was right and I was wrong. Yes, it was pretty degrading and I can’t believe I put up with it as long as I did.

      So one day as I was at work late, fixing a mistake he had made, we were on the phone and he started going in at me for asking a question and went on and on and on until I was crying at the office but he wouldn’t let me off the phone. There was always a thinly veiled threat that if I ever left a conversation without being “excused” I would be fired for insubordination. Feels so icky even typing that but that was how it was happening.

      When I finally got off the phone I was so upset that I went over to his bosses’ desk (who was about to leave for a multiple week vacation) and I told him what happened while shaking. I knew if I didn’t do it in that moment, I’d never do it. I had never said anything about my bosses behavior so none of the hire ups knew what was going on. I’m sooooo glad I spoke up. I just wish I had done it earlier than I did.

        1. Anon For This One*

          Yes, he apologized for not realizing what was happening and then my boss ended up getting put on a PIP. Not just because of the stuff with me, he was apparently treating other lower level women badly and doing some other things that I wasn’t privy to. But I think my talk with bosses boss may have solidified things. And bosses boss told me that I could come directly to him with questions and concerns so I just felt like I had someone in my corner and it was a relief to be believed. At the time I was convinced that if I said anything people would have not believed me or I would have been gaslit. I think my old boss had a jedi mind control over me or something!

      2. Hippo-nony-potomus*

        I worked for someone almost exactly like this, just worse (women usually lasted about 3 months). Skip boss did nothing. Boss, skip boss, and HR got sued. All got fired.

    22. Feral At This Point*

      Twice … and it was a disaster both times. Once for stealing cash and changing sales records to no longer record literal cash transations from the company (I had proof …) and once part of an anonymous 360 review that ruined the entire working relationship I had with him. I’ve learned to not care unless it’s my money and simply CYA myself, never trust anonymous reviews, and move on when the boss is bad. Sorry to add cold water to what seems like mostly positive experiences from other people!

      1. Fran Fine*

        I’m actually shocked that more people didn’t have a similar outcome to yours – there is so much potential for this to go horribly wrong when reporting a boss’s bad behavior to upper management.

    23. NancyDrew*

      Yep. I had to go to my boss’s boss in near tears because my boss was SO ineffective and frustrating. It had been a slow burn and I’d been updating her on the issues (we had regular meetings already) and then one day I got an offer for another job and I flat out told her I would take it if my current boss was going to remain my boss. She immediately promoted me and switched reporting lines so I didn’t report to him anymore.

      Eventually (years later) I then had to re-open the complaint line about him, and she ended up putting him on a PIP. He retired halfway through the PIP.

    24. Ann Perkins*

      Yes. He started seriously dating someone in mid-level management who directly reported to him. It was creating serious problems in the office since the mid level manager who toxic and complaints were coming in about her to me but I didn’t have the authority to do anything about it and he would sweep concerns under the rug. So far not much concrete action has been taken and I ended up leaving that job anyway.

    25. LoraC*

      Accidentally, yes.

      My boss was bad (understatement of the century). I saw an opening for an internal transfer and quietly applied.

      The department I was transferring to was curious about why I was transferring and they scheduled me not to talk with the original hiring manager, but the actual department head. He was curious about why I was trying to transfer. I tried to dance around it and talked about wanting different/challenging work, and he told me he knew that very challenging work was coming my way soon. Then I flatly told him my boss wasn’t doing anything and I was doing the work he should’ve been doing. Which he believed because my boss was that notorious (long story but he’d almost been fired and had been reported up to C-suite).

      He offered to talk to my current department head and it set off an entire chain since my department head was 3 levels above my manager. Eventually my skip level met with me and I told him the things that were being assigned to me were way above my current title and should’ve been done by my boss.

      And instead of doing anything about it, they compromised by giving me an off-cycle promotion+10% raise while still having me report to my current boss. And I guess I gained a mysterious reputation for having a connection with high level managers because no one ever figured out why my department head was suddenly asking about a random employee 4 levels below him.

    26. Olivia Mansfield*

      We once went as a group directly to the dean who was having some sort of undefined relationship with two women on the administrative staff.

      He was always flirting with them, and they were always flirting with him, and then whenever they didn’t like any policy or procedure from the dean’s excellent assistant, they would go into his office and tell him some sort of sob story about their difficult childhoods, or cry, or both, and then the dean would come out from his office and reverse whatever decision had been made. His assistant would even ask him in advance of setting a policy, if he agreed with a given policy and if he would back her up on it, and he would say yes, and then they would cry in his office and he would reverse that policy, too.

      About 5 or 6 of us staff, ranking from admins to directors, made a private meeting with him to discuss how it looked and how it affected us, but he was willfully oblivious that he was doing anything wrong.

      So when his annual 360 review came around, we all put what we had told him in person into his evaluation, which brought it to the attention of the upper administration of the university. Meanwhile, one of the women who was always crying in his office was fired for cause, after which she filed a racial discrimination lawsuit against him (which I don’t know why it wasn’t sexual harassment, and many of us didn’t even realize she wasn’t white until she filed a racial discrimination suit, and we were all like, Wait — what race? And why isn’t the suit for sexual harassment?).

      Anyway, at that point, the university attorneys got involved and called each staff member in to meet with them and ask about what had happened. One of the things that they asked me was, “How did you all know that they [the two women] were crying and telling him about their bad childhoods?” and I said, “Because he would come out of his office and tell us that! He would come out of his office and say, ‘We’re not going to do this policy, after all, because [M. or J.] was upset about it and she’s had a hard childhood.”

      Nothing happened to him that time, but a few years later another junior female staff member filed a sexual harassment complaint against him, and the upper administration said they were done using legal resources on him, and made him go back on the faculty, dismissing him from his dean’s appointment. He was allowed to frame it as wanting to semi-retire and spend time with his family, but we all knew it was because of the lawsuits against him.

    27. Alexis Rosay*

      My brother went over his boss’s head to request a raise after his boss denied him. He ended up getting fired instead. But the thing is…He was pretty disengaged from that job, I’m guessing his work didn’t necessarily deserve a raise, and by escalating the issue he just came off as out of touch.

    28. Momma Bear*

      I went to the big boss when I couldn’t resolve an issue with the project manager. Ultimately I decided that if the project manager was going to stay, I was not. I would do it again. Several of us left. No one should have been surprised.

    29. Meep*

      I should have been truthfully fired for insubordination years ago. My former manager is a bit volatile and anything will set her off depending on the moment. I would be working on something and she would screech and scream at me to stop “wasting” time and then two weeks later expect it to be completely done so she could take credit for it. She also makes a stink about vacation days to the point, her subordinates will come to me to let me know when they are going on vacation rather than her. Our boss has no issues with it, but she likes to pretend HE is the mean one, so I go to bat for whoever wants to go on vacation and all she can do is pout.

    30. Animal worker*

      Yes, at my last job. I’ll preface it to say that at this point my leaving was definite, which did make me feel pretty comfortable to be professional yet very honest. The reason that I went up the ladder was because my boss was also the director of the organization, who reported to a municipal director who was not an animal person, therefore I had no one else to go to within my organization about animal welfare concerns. I knew the big boss well enough to feel relatively comfortable doing this, as much as is possible anyway given the situation. I had literally six pages of notes with me grouped by category, to help me stay focused and hit all salient points. And I had corroborating documentation which I gave him on a flash drive afterwards. My goal was 1/3 petty – admittedly – that I had been treated so badly (in my opinion anyway) that I wanted this person to feel some of it, but 2/3 because my core issues involved areas where animal welfare was put at risk and I wanted the powers that be to be aware of this and hopefully help these things happening in the future.

      No idea really what the long-term outcome was. I do know that the big boss (municipal director) did take some actions as far as meetings with those involved and due to another non-animal related aspect of my treatment I ended up negotiating an agreed upon payment as well – so for those reasons and for my own feeling of needing to do something to help safeguard the staff and animals I’m glad I spoke up. I do know that no one lost their job or anything, the director (my boss) did retire within a year but that was somewhat planned, no idea if it was expedited at all or at the planned timeline. I’d do it again in a heartbeat if I had to, but really, really hope to never be in such a stressful work situation again.

    31. MissBliss*

      I’m not sure this quite counts, because it wasn’t about something that my boss did, but:

      I was present at a meeting with the board chair, event committee chair, and, inexplicably, my boss’s boyfriend (who was a community member/leader of another org, and friend of the chair, but not a staff member). My boss had to cancel last minute because she wasn’t feeling well. Board chair made a joke to the boyfriend, in front of a vendor, that she was sick because she was pregnant (which she was not– they did not want kids). I was the only woman there. I was made deeply uncomfortable, and didn’t feel like I could report it to my boss. I reported it to another director level female staff member, who encouraged me to go to the CEO, which I did. He was mortified and was glad I had spoken up, and took care of letting my boss know what had happened and speaking with the board chair.

    32. TechGirlSupervisor*

      I had to go over my bad boss several times to his boss. She knew how awful he was but he was being protected by someone multiple levels above her. She pretty much directed me to document all our non-interactions (he had taken to freezing me out of any communication by that point, which since I was the technical lead and he was the PM, was really stupid of him).

      It came to head when I had to inform him that his lack of planning meant the impossible deadline he set for a piece of documentation couldn’t be met because the team can’t make miracles happen. Even though we had been communicating that to him the entire time, he decided to yell and scream at the team in the meeting we had to discuss what to do about the document that was going to be late. He acted like it was this huge surprise.

      For me that was the last straw. I had been pretty much taking the brunt of his stupidity and shielding the rest of the team from him but I went directly to his boss after that, outlined how the meeting went and stated that given his unreasonable screaming at the team and the rest of behavior I had been documenting up to the point, I was ready to file an official HR complaint of work place bullying and harassment.

      He was pulled off the project the next day and “left” the company after that.

      I had the backing of his boss the entire time and I realize that not everyone has that, but it made it so much easier to deal with in some ways. I knew he was just digging his own hole and that I would be fine.

    33. the principle of the thing anon*

      It wasn’t just me, but most of the staff at the school. It was our second principal (a new to the area public school, K-5)–and she was new to admin and…not suited for it. She obviously harassed staff members she didn’t like, got in screaming matches in the hallways with teachers during class time, tried to circumvent union based seniority lists, lied, cheated, was sure everyone was always talking about her….She was a piece of work and rather awful. If she was out for a morning appointment and showed up midday, you could feel the atmosphere change as soon as she walked through the doors.

      Our previous principal had gone to be a director of programs at the school board head office–and after about 4 or 5 years, several of the teachers 2ndP harassed, got together and let all staff know to call our previous admin to complain about 2ndP so that central office could document things.

      Within a couple months our previous principal along with the superintendent of schools showed up–floating subs were provided for staff as necessary and the two them interviewed staff. We were interviewed individually by one or the other and asked 4 or 5 questions about 2ndP–the last questions was: “Do you want her back next year?” I don’t think ANYONE answered yes.

      The end result: she took an LOA from the principal position the next year and went back to doing resource (where she’d come from)….and the year after that she totally left the admin position and was back to resource until she left our board for good. I’ve been with our board for almost 25 years and this is one of the few times I’ve heard of this happening. I honestly think that the reasons something got done quickly is because our previous principal knew the staff and that we weren’t making sh*t up. That previous admin eventually moved up and became the superintendent of schools herself.

      I often say I survived that horrible principal, I can survive anyone. And I have.

      1. curiousLemur*

        “he obviously harassed staff members she didn’t like, got in screaming matches in the hallways with teachers during class time, tried to circumvent union based seniority lists, lied, cheated, was sure everyone was always talking about her.”

        As well as not being suited for admin, she sounds like a horrible human being in general.

    34. Robin Ellacott*

      Once. It was a situation like the letter recently where payroll messed up and none of the staff at the small chain store I managed got paid. It was the end of the month and they were panicking about rent and so on.

      My boss, a district manager, was taking a “payroll is aware of the issue and say it will take 1-2 weeks to pay them, so *shrug* nothing we can do” approach. I called the regional manager – still amazed 23-year old me dared, because she was the manager for hundreds of stores over half of North America, and a rather formidable person whom I had just met once. She heard me out politely and called back half an hour later to say we would receive cheques by courier that day, and thanks for letting her know.

      I found out later that she actually was impressed I called her. I’m not sure if she chastened my boss. I fled that pretty crappy company a few years later.

      1. Robin Ellacott*

        Oh, and I went to the CEO once about a manager who was bullying people, but she wasn’t my manager so not sure that counts. The bully got investigated and fired.

    35. Sometimes supervisor*

      Sort of and with mixed results.

      Got an excellent lead on a piece of work that would have been perfect for our company. Brought back to manager, who told me to wrap it into a colleague’s work because it was similar. I thought it was a bigger deal than that, so raised it to her manager, who agreed with me and spun it off as its own project.

      I already didn’t get have the greatest working relationship with manager but things became really frosty from there on out. Basically, no more support for any of my projects, small mistakes suddenly became a massive deal she’d flip out over, and she made it very clear she’d much rather I wasn’t on the team anymore. I left about six months later.

      But the project also did really well. It was one of the best performing projects of the business had had that year, it’s still on my CV years later and people were still asking me about it for a good while after I left the company. It was basically the sort of project that only comes along every handful of years.

    36. I'm Done*

      He wasn’t directly my boss but he was the head of the business unit. It was reported to me by several sources that he was taking kickbacks. I reported it to our corporate headquarters in Japan. He was fired the next day. Unfortunately, he was hired by the director of the European headquarters who blamed me for losing face. He retaliated by firing me exactly on the day a year later. He left me in place for a year because they needed someone to run the business unit until they could find a replacement for the business unit manager. I sued the company for wrongful termination and won a fairly large settlement. It actually turned out to be a really good thing in the long run.

    37. Chaordic One*

      This was about six years ago. My direct boss, an over-worked and underpaid lower-level manager, left and was replaced by a reasonably intelligent and (irrelevantly) credentialed, but inexperienced person who, during our annual review, said that I would be “considered” for a step raise to a slightly higher pay level. The job was horrible and I was doing a work of 2 or 3 people in a horrible work environment and I don’t think my inexperienced boss realized how much I did. Among other things, we were going through a transition of databases. There was massive resistance among the users, who continued to submit information the old way, and I had to take on the additional work of accepting this information, reformatting it and then inputting it into the new database. An enormous time suck when I was already underpaid and overworked. A year later, next annual review, and I was told that I would not be receiving the step raise and that it was mostly because of her boss.

      I was not happy and told my boss that I wanted to speak to her boss. I waited a couple of days, and crickets. So I met with my boss’s boss and he acted clueless. I don’t think I my boss had relayed how unhappy I was. I told him how disappointed I was with not being given the step raise and his failure to support my boss and our department. He did not take the criticism well and dumped all of the responsibility for the situation back on my boss. However, he did relay my unhappiness to his boss (my boss’s boss’s boss) who then did meet with me to let me know that he and my boss’s boss were now aware of my unhappiness.

      Shortly after this my boss’s position was redesigned and split between 3 people. She was, effectively, demoted a notch and while still in a position above mine, no longer my supervisor. Looking back I can now see that she was also terribly overworked, afraid to advocate for her department and employees and I now attribute this to her inexperience and desire to not make waves. It was not what I intended or expected. I naively thought they’d give her some more support. My new boss was a dim-witted, long-term employee who kept her head down and was nearing retirement. But nothing else changed. My job continued to be awful and my new boss was as unhelpful as the previous one.

      For the next year I was busy applying for other jobs, getting interviews, but no offers. I was still waiting around for the next annual review (and my hard work and genius to be recognized) when, on the day before my employer gave out profit sharing bonuses, I was fired by my boss’s boss’s boss. My boss (the long-termer) was present, but didn’t say anything and cried. I was told that I was being fired because I was “resistant to change” (which was a bizarre narrative narrative for him to use). I was unhappy and did not have a good attitude, but I would have happily embraced any change that was anything other than having more work dumped on me without receiving any additional compensation for it, and being misled about being promoted.

      In retrospect, I could have framed my unhappiness better and advocated for myself better, but I don’t think anything would have made a difference. My bosses were doing a lot of gas-lighting and it was typical for the employer. I was living in a small rural town with limited employment opportunities, so it wasn’t surprising that I had difficulty in finding another job. I ultimately ended up having to move to a more urban area in order to find a decent job.

      I would like to think that, after I was gone, they came to some realization about how much I did. I suspect that they underestimated how far along the transition to the new database was and how much extra work it entailed to make it work. They probably had to hire at least 2 people to do the work I did.

      My former employer is a nonprofit that I have sometimes refered to as “Dysfunctional Teapots”. It was heavily hit by the COVID crisis and they had to lay off a large number of people. My boss’s boss recently died (apparently suddenly and unexpectedly). The cause of death was not revealed. My boss’s boss’s boss (gas lighter par excellent and the one who fired me) retired early and is now working as a consultant for political campaigns. Before his retirement he would frequently write letters to the editor of local newspapers, mostly advocating for my employer, but also related to politics. I expected him to continue to write such letters after his retirement, but I’m only aware of one such letter and it was just a kind of meandering muddle that didn’t seem to have any point other than to say that he was still around. It was weird.

    38. Clearlier*

      It started with my greatgrandboss tapping my shoulder one day, asking if I had a minute and bringing me into a meeting room. I didn’t know it at the time but he had just finished a meeting with my recently appointed boss who had just resigned where he let loose about his boss (my grandboss) and he was trying to find out what was going on.

      He just asked me ‘how are things’ and went silent which floored me. I asked him if he really wanted to know, he said yes and I gave him a sanitised version. He offered me a raise, which I turned down saying that the problem wasn’t money it was the grandbosses behaviour (at this remove I can’t quite believe that I turned down a raise that I actually more than deserved) so he told me that I could come talk to him any time I liked.

      I noticed a change in her behaviour almost immediately, she still didn’t know how encourage or be positive but she dialed the negativity down a few notche’s.

      What I hadn’t mentioned in the meeting, because I was struggling to put it into words, was an incident that had happened a few days earlier. I had been unexpectedly called into a meeting with my boss and grandboss and told that I was doing a bad job because I was spending too much of my time talking and I was given direct instruction to stop talking to and helping people – mine was a hybrid technical/managerial role and this was to include the team that I manage outside of assigning them work and even that was to be done via the software system.

      Of course as I’m walking back to my desk sightly stunned, one of my newer team members asks if I can explain something to him. Without thinking I told them what I had just been told but said that I’d help them anyway. We sorted the issue out but the team member (who was very experienced and just taking on a low-level role part-time to keep their brain active) was flabbergasted at the instruction that I had received and couldn’t stop themselves from expressing their shock repeatedly including when after my boss had returned to his desk which was beside us. Cue my boss telling me that that wasn’t what was meant. I asked for clarification and didn’t really get any.

      The following day I get a message from my grandboss asking me to come into a meeting room that they were in. I go and immediately get this prepared monologue where I’m told that I can’t go telling people that I’m not allowed to talk to them. They had anticipated that I would deny that I had said this and as part of the monologue told me that they (grandboss) had been standing behind my direct report when I had said it to them. I apologised and said that this was what I had understood I was being told (asking wasn’t a part of the conversation). They said no and got ina complete muddle trying to explain what it was that they had meant.

      I hadn’t realised it but I was being gaslighted all the time – I had heard of the term but didn’t know what it meant until some time later. In retrospect this had been going on for sometime without me realising it. This time however grandboss had given me a specific which I knew to be a lie (that they had been standing behind my direct report). When my boss told me that they were leaving and why I confirmed my facts and stewed on it for a couple of days.

      I saw this as a verifiable example of the kind of behaviour that was so difficult to work with so decided to take greatgrandboss up on their offer, met them and related the story. I have no doubt whatsoever that they believed me however their response was that I was doing great, was invaluable to the company, that they saw me as an ideal fit for my bosses job and that I would have to find a way work with grandboss – this was the second resignation by someone in my bosses position in a 6 month period.
      It’s difficult to say if I’d do it again. In principle yes but in practice I’d be very cautious as it made no positive difference and possibly made it worse as the gaslighting subsequently escalated. The biggest mistake that I made was not leaving sooner.

      Congratulations if you made it to the end. I’m barely touching on all of the stuff that went on and I have talked about it with people but it’s helpful to write out even just this very small part of what I experienced.

    39. The New Wanderer*

      Kind of. I was assigned to a new manager, who I already knew and recognized would be a terrible choice to manage me (or really anyone). I talked to my outgoing manager first and they encouraged me to talk to grand-boss since they also knew this would be a terrible match.

      I spoke to my grandboss, someone I respect and who returned the favor, and they agreed to move me to the manager I requested (who I had already talked to) basically on the basis of my asking. Unfortunately it took almost two months before the transfer officially took effect, and during that time I was having to report to the manager I wanted. That person was so far out of their depth, they complained that I hadn’t accomplished a nearly impossible feat that I’d been working on for a while, and tasked me with solving a multi-year problem in six weeks using Agile (because in their limited understanding, anything can be solved using Agile methods). I said that wasn’t possible and tried to explain why, and they responded that my problem was that I must not understand Agile and I should read some book they recommended. It really cemented the fact that if my grandboss hadn’t approved, I would have left rather than continue to report to that awful manager.

    40. Anon for this*

      I was working on a project where the resourcing had basically been screwed up.

      Person A managed it, then got a promotion, so person B took over for a bit. (I was working for person B). Person B misreported how well things were going. I then got promoted and took over from person B (who joined a different team) and reported into person A. For reasons still not fully understood by me, they took all but one of the experienced people off the team and left us with a project in a bad state and mostly junior employees.

      It was awful, ridiculously stressful, silly hours and I was complaining to person A every status meeting (but they’re an optimist and I guess just thought I needed reassurance? Who knows). I went over their head and told someone else how bad it was and the team gained two more experienced people the next week. I should have done it earlier :)

    41. Anonosaurus*

      About 15 years ago I had a boss who was a nightmare – he undermined me by giving instructions to my team, excluded me from meetings, committed me and my team to projects without consultation and on a personal level was rude and condescending. In hindsight I did some things which weren’t helpful too, and I would manage the situation very differently if it happened to me now. Anyway, things eventually came to a head over a performance review which I thought was unfair, and I requested a review with my grandboss at which I listed some of these issues and said that I was going to raise a grievance about my boss if things didn’t improve. The grandboss’ solution was to create a new job for me in a different department rather than to deal with my boss’ behavior – although I wouldn’t know if he was ever spoken to, he remained in that role until he retired. Anyway, I accepted the new position and it all worked out OK for me. but only because I had already decided to leave the organization, which I did about eight months later. If I had been committed to my career in that organization, the sideways move would not have been good for me.

    42. Hannah Lee*

      At a previous job, I uncovered a data entry error which made it seem like the company’s bookings and revenue for the quarter would be millions greater than they actually were.

      Since I’d only been there a couple of months before just making the correction, I raised the issue with my boss, to run it by her. Iinstead of giving me the go ahead to fix it, she demanded that I give her all my notes, documentation about it and not say a word to anyone. A few weeks later the #s still hadn’t been corrected and she almost hissed at
      me when I tried to follow up about it with her.

      Then I saw a draft of the quarterly financial statements and they had the inflated numbers. This was a publicly traded tech company and earnings reports were critical and obviously needed to be accurate. It was clear to me that my boss, the finance director was sitting on the correct info and letting the false #s stay. So I went to HER boss, the CFO to explain the situation so he could take action before the financial reports were issued.

      But it turned out he already knew and was okay with reporting financial results he knew were wrong. There had already been signs this wasn’t a great company to work for, but this huge ethical and legal violation was the last straw. Even though I’d been doing great there, hitting all my goals, reenergizing my department and collaborating with other managers, and even though I didn’t have a job lined up, I gave my notice and left after 2 weeks.

      It worked out okay though – my staff gave me a sweet going away party and thanked me for everything, my old boss heard I was leaving and offered me a consulting gig at my previous employer, a role which paid 40% more than my previous position there and was in a less chaotic, toxic department, and led to a FT offer for a great job.

      Oh and bad company got caught issuing incorrect financials, had to issue restatements for multiple years, causing the stock price to tank and they got hit with a huge fine, and eventually shut down.

  3. Albeira Dawn*

    Has anyone read “Designing Your Work Life” by Bill Burnett and Dave Evans? I read most of their first book and am trying to decide if this one would be more or less helpful in figuring out what I want to do with my career.

    1. cubone*

      I have not, but have heard it recommended time and time again! I also think design thinking is a fantastic framework for all sorts of things though, so I’m biased. I think if you liked the first one then why not?

      (I will also say again that though it doesn’t seem to jive with everyone, I think the What Colour is Your Parachute Workbook is very useful for defining specifics about what you do and don’t like in a job).

    2. I'm In The Office Today*

      I like the idea of it, but it didn’t really apply to my life, unfortunately. My work life isn’t flexible enough that I can ask for changes to be made.

  4. Let me be dark and twisty*

    I know that sports are the great common office denominator, especially in COVID Times, but it’s really starting to grate on me how often sports come up in our virtual meetings. I am not a sporty person. I don’t play sports, I don’t follow sports, I don’t watch sports, I don’t pay attention to them. And as a non-sporty person, it does make me feel like the company is adopting a sport culture and if you’re not into sports, you’re not part of the cool kids with all their inside jokes and alliances.

    Look, I get it. I get that sports are one of the ways people are connecting at work. I’m not going to complain about it. What good could come out of it? So I’ll just grit my teeth and hope that going back to the office means the sports stop taking over our meetings.

    Are there any other non-sporty people out there? How do you deal with all this? Can we have a secret signal to recognize each other when the Monday morning armchair quarterbacking is getting ridiculous? Do you get dragged into the sporty teambuilding exercises too?

    1. Applesauced*

      Just throw out a “Did you see that ludicrous display last night?” or “The thing about Arsenal is, they always try to walk it in!” and change the subject

      3. Richard Hershberger*

        In all seriousness, this stuff is easy to fake. I am a sports person, but pretty specific about which sports. I know a lot about baseball and American football, would like to know more about cricket and rugby, am largely indifferent to basketball, soccer, hockey, and tennis, and golf makes me catatonic. So how does this serve me in an American office context? I have to be careful talking about baseball and American football. The danger is that start talking about what coverage schemes were used in yesterday’s game and I have lost my audience. They know the final score and remember a few dramatic plays and that is that. The level of the office sports talk is very superficial.

        The plus is that this means I can fake the sports I don’t follow. I can check the headlines in the morning, and perhaps a few highlights, and I have all I need for the purpose. And what is this purpose? This is social bonding, not analysis or exchange of substantive information. I have no expectation of learning anything, and don’t try to teach anything. It is, in short, small talk. And thank goodness for it! Most of my interests are very nerdy. This is my main outlet for socially mainstream casual conversation.

      5. Virginia Plain*

        Came here to say same. Link in the comment for anyone who hasn’t had the pleasure; start this clip at about 1min 40.

    2. 1234*

      Me. I don’t watch sports and couldn’t tell you who played who last night. Can you just say that you didn’t catch the game? Nod, smile, and then move onto the meeting’s agenda?

    3. Bloopmaster*

      Wow. I am so glad I don’t work in your office. There is almost zero of this in my office (just an occasional remark about taking a kid to their sports practice and one team member who follows basketball but knows that the rest of us aren’t interested). I would be so miserable if this was discussed frequently and at length, and I think there are plenty of offices or even whole organizations where sports doesn’t dominate mandatory work activities. I hope you find one.

      1. Let me be dark and twisty*

        It really isn’t that bad. I think it’s exacerbated by everyone working from home and all of us being in the same meetings. In the office it was easier to tolerate since all the sportstalk happened in spaces where I wasn’t working and people could do drivebys to talk about it. The drivebys and those ad hoc “water cooler” conversations aren’t happening in the remote world so it gets dragged into all of the meetings.

        I will say I think one of the more frequent violators is a guy I’m thisclose to entering BEC status with so there’s a very high chance it’s particularly more annoying because he’s the one who keeps starting the sportstalk when people are popping into zooms before the meetings start.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Heh. I have a sneaky idea. Find another team member who shares your interest in something else. Log on to zoom a few minutes earlier than he does. And start a lively conversation about… TV shows, pets, gardening, the latest archaeological discovery in your neck of the woods, whatever. Bonus if you can get a third person to log in early who will join in on your topic as soon as sports dude seems likely to change the subject.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            Also share in the phrase that helps when people start getting negative about you not liking sports.
            “Unless I personally know the people playing, it’s kind of like watching somebody else eat dinner.” Admittedly the person I heard this from follows it up with “I’ll try any game you teach me the rules to, but please don’t make me watch someone get paid to play games.”
            I wouldn’t add that unless you really do like to play games.

            1. Not a sports fan*

              The one I’ve used is “after this is over, let’s turn on General Hospital so I can explain to you who all the people are and all their 40 year character backstories and why that matters for the current storylines.”

          2. Yorick*

            This isn’t even sneaky. Bring up other mainstream interests that several people are gonna have. Movies, TV, what your kids dressed up as for Halloween, whatever. Let that be the chitchat today. Sometimes the topic can be sports, sometimes it can be the newest Marvel movie, sometimes it can be the festival you were at this weekend.

      2. Sleeping Late Every Day*

        It helps to work someplace full of amiable nerds. We had a few people who followed college soccer or hockey, but they seldom mentioned it except to each other. Lovely!

    4. B*

      Yup. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been at some after-work function where sports is the default entertainment. All of my co-workers are watching a game and I’m like, “Peace out, ya’ll.” It is aggravating sometimes.

    5. Sports Go Sports*

      People who are really into sports generally tend to be happier and feel a stronger sense of community, so in offices and especially during Covid it makes sense that it’s coming up a lot. But I’m also not a sporty person and have been in your position in offices before where everyone is talking about the Superbowl or whatever big thing is happening and I don’t relate or understand! Sometimes I chime in with something I heard from a friend about an important game I know just happened just to feel included and usually I just ignore them or say “oh I don’t really follow that” if I’m asked directly. But everyone has interests in multiple things, so find people who are really into your favorite TV show or baking or whatever you may want to talk about to make friends at work and you can reap those same benefits of workplace relationships.

      1. londonedit*

        I agree. None of my current colleagues are into sport, and I actually really miss having someone at work to talk about football with. But I just have to suck it up and find something else to talk to them about – and turning that around, I’d definitely recommend just saying ‘Ah, I don’t really watch sport – but did you see that amazing sunset on Friday night? I couldn’t resist going to the park to take a few photos’ or ‘I’m more Great British Bake Off than football, I’m afraid – did you see it the other night?’ or whatever.

        1. quill*

          My default is usually “I don’t watch that often, who won?” and then allow 2-3 minutes for either annoyance or smugness, depending on what the outcome was. Sports people can entertain themselves by conversing about sport, you don’t actually need to know, participate, or remember anything. :)

          1. londonedit*

            That is such a good point, and one I’d never really considered! If you’re happy to listen to two minutes of me bemoaning the fact that we are about to be demolished by Manchester City tomorrow before I say ‘Anyway – how’s your day going?’, that’s great :D

      2. ...*

        “People who are really into sports generally tend to be happier” — hard disagree on that blanket statement.

        1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          There’s actually research that supports this. Basically, having a sense of belonging in a community (of fellow fans) results in higher self esteem, a feeling of connectedness, a sense of purpose, all sorts of good psychological effects. Obviously being a sports fan isn’t the only way to achieve this, but the sentence “people who are really into sports generally tend to be happier” is objectively true.

          2. All the words*

            What’s being described is tribalism.

            While participants may enjoy it there’s an opposite side of that coin.

          3. Seeking Second Childhood*

            Nesting failure, my reply I ended up below. Tldr…it’s not just sports. It’s some ongoing group community activity.

          4. Richard Hershberger*

            Look at the victory parade when the local team wins the championship. It is a love fest of total strangers. Very cathartic.

            1. pancakes*

              In a lot of places these seem to be mostly about getting sloppy drunk and bellowing. Sometimes cars get flipped over. These aren’t my ideal ways to express love.

          5. Not a sports fan*

            I wonder about that research. Did they compare sports fans against non-sports people with other strong community ties and engagement? Or was it just sports fans vs people with no community engagement at all? Because the control group you choose to compare sports fans to is going to have an impact on the results you get.

            1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

              Yes, it sounds pretty biased to me. Did they compare against musicians or cosplayers or amateur theater people?

      3. Generic Name*

        Yep. I used to look down on sports/sports fans as being “low brow”, but my opinion has changed. Sports are fun! They are a great way to bond and feel civic pride. Do I watch sports now? Not really. Sometimes I’ll catch part of a football game, and I really love going to baseball games (but big league games are expensive). I normally follow the gist of how local teams are doing by seeing what folks post on their facebook feeds. That way I can chime in with things like “I can’t believe they traded Von Miller!” on occasion. I think of it as a way to bond with coworkers without getting overly personal.

        1. Pikachu*

          > look down on sports/sports fans as being “low brow”

          Can you clarify what drives this thinking? I don’t mean to put you on the spot, but it is such common perception and I’m wondering what the root of this is. Because athletes are unintelligent? Because fans rejoice in the successes of others, not their own? Because it’s athletic achievement and not brainpower?

          1. Richard Hershberger*

            It is the stereotypical division between jocks and bookworms. It is akin to the stereotype of the classical musician who would not be caught dead listening to pop music. These stereotypes do not correlate well with reality. I was once at the symphony when, between pieces, they announced a local team winning a playoff game, with the audience cheering.

          2. Anony*

            I think some people view sports as not an intellectual pursuit and less productive than a hobby like reading or making art. Particularly people who build part of their identify from liking what’s perceived to be outside the norm (e.g. self-identified hipsters, nerds).

            1. An Nonny Frog*

              I find major league sports annoying. The culture of sports is not inclusive, and promotes gender stereotypes and drinking, which sucks when you are not a white male and/or have alcoholics in your family. The cost of attending a game is so ridiculous now all fans can’t afford it, and many teams whine when the taxpayers don’t want to pay even more to buy them a new stadium when they make several times your salary…

              I also just don’t get it. I understand the idea of wanting to follow a team and having camaraderie, but players are traded and hardly ever actually from the city they play for anymore. It’s like yay for those people we paid the most money for?? I guess…

              The sports culture near me is hostile, too. Our sports fans are poor sports. They flip cars over when we WIN, I could understand the anger when you lose, but wtf? There is a lot of shaming if you even mention another team.

              At OldJob, I had to pretend to care about sports to avoid getting bullied about it, that was the last straw.

              1. PT*

                I agree with this assessment. I’ve lived in some major sports cities and their fans can be scary. They are drunk and violent, and when they’re playing rival teams there’s elevated violence, such that I wonder why parents buy their small children jerseys because it just seems like a way to expose their small child to verbal and physical assault.

                Additionally in some parts of the US, sports colors/logos get adopted by gangs, and that adds a whole second ugly dimension to things.

              2. Green Beans*

                That’s a really biased view against sports. The joy is in watching highly trained experts do something physically demanding and exciting well. In feeling like a part of community that supports their efforts (win or lose). Honestly, the same reasons we like ballet and concerts and museums. Not just the experience, but sharing in the experience with others.
                You don’t have to like it, but literally billions of people find value in the experience.

                1. Down to the minute*

                  Agreed. Sometimes it’s much easier to make gender/race/lifestyle stereotypes than to look in the mirror.

                2. pancakes*

                  Come on, now. You are not comparing similar experiences. There are no military fly-overs or other displays of nationalism at the ballet or at museums, or people who paint their faces or their beer bellies in the colors and logos of their favorite ballet companies bellowing in the audience, for starters. Some of us who enjoy playing sports and might otherwise be open to watching now and then have noticed this stuff and find it repugnant. The one sporty boyfriend I had who liked to watch football (and was a brilliant soccer player himself) would only watch it with the sound off because he hated that it has what he called “the tackiest presentation of any sport.” If you truly believe that anything popular must be good, you are going to find yourself defending a lot of terrible stuff.

                4. pancakes*

                  Yorick, I think it’s reasonably clear from my comment that it isn’t face paint itself I dislike, but the context for it at so many sporting events – militarism, nationalism, loud sloppy drunks, the simpleminded nature of hollering for one team or place to beat another, etc. I don’t know much about comic cons, but my impression is that they generally don’t tend to involve these things!

              3. Hannah Lee*

                The thing I always find amazing is when ‘Sports-Fan adults’ mock others, for example sci-fi or other genre fans for being passionate about *their* thing, while being literally fanatical about sports… attending multiple games, watching any others, playing in fantasy leagues, listening to sports talk shows, slapping team stickers on their cars, desks, gym bags, strewing team swag about their workplace.

                The there’s my personal favorite, the NE Patriots fan I worked with making fun of a co-worker who went to a con and cos-played their favorite character… while he was wearing a Pats team jersey with his favorite player’s name and number on the back … AT WORK in an office.
                My cosplaying co-worker and I had a silent conversation like that Tostitos commercial “Can you believe this guy?” “Are you going to tell him he himself is cosplaying” “no YOU tell him!”

      4. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I disagree with you on one thing– it’s not just ‘sports’. It’s any regular group activity. So for me it’s more:
        “People who are really into ( art classes / acting / dance / chorus / being docent for their local history museum / parent-teacher organizations / church committees / Pride parade planning / etc) generally tend to be happier and feel a stronger sense of community.”

    6. Anonymous Koala*

      I am right there with you, fellow non-athlete. My office loves team sports and my idea of a fun leisure activity is reading a book. What I do is own my non-athlete-ness and volunteer to cheer teams on, coordinate sign ups (sometimes. I don’t want to be That Person either) and often I just don’t participate in the “optional” sports activities – the “I’m a terrible athlete” excuse generally goes over fine.

    7. Charlotte Lucas*

      Completely non-sporty here, & I live somewhere that everyone follows football & the state college teams. I cannot express how much I don’t care about sports and how annoyed I am about the fact that so much money & attention in higher ed go to sports. On the other hand, I can turn off the local news after 15 minutes, because the rest will all be sports reporting. (High school included, which is so strange coming from a market where local news is an hour, & there’s enough of it that high school & college sports rarely, if ever, make it on the news.)

    8. Zennish*

      I generally just answer, totally deadpan “I do not follow sportsball, I am not a sportsball person.”

      1. Marguerite*

        That seems a bit… I don’t know, rude? Childish? I’m not sure what the right word is. A bunch of us at work are into plays and musicals. If someone just deadpanned “I do not follow playshows. I am not a playshow person” it would reflect weirdly on the person saying it.

        1. londonedit*

          Yeah, I have to say I hate the ‘sportsball’ thing. It feels patronising and childish. There’s a section of the population that likes to act as if anyone who enjoys sport is somehow a lesser being, and they’re clearly superior because they spend their time on higher-minded things, and in my experience those are the people who tend to do the whole ‘Oh yes, sportsball. I do not follow sportsball’ thing. Like people who think they’re morally superior because they don’t own a TV.

          1. STG*

            I always viewed it as the person making fun of themselves for not knowing sports, not the person interested in sports. I might be the minority though.

            1. Marguerite*

              True, it probably all depends on the delivery. The poster above said they “deadpanned” it, which strikes me as pretty condescending. Like there’s an underlying “you uncultured fool” addition. Same energy as someone going “Oh, are you still watching your little Lord of the Thrones show or whatever?”

              And I don’t even care about sports. It’s just that not caring about sports doesn’t make me an intellectual.

            2. A*

              Ya, on the rare occasion sports comes up in the workplace I usually make a sportsball joke but it’s 100% self deprecating and me poking fun at myself for being so far out of that loop I wouldn’t even know where the loop begins/ends. That being said, I only do that when I’m amongst colleagues that I’ve worked with for a long time and know my personality. Otherwise I agree that it can come off wrong, although my concern has been more so that they might think my ignorance about sports extends beyond that realm – but I can see why it might also be viewed as a bit rude depending on the delivery.

          2. Sleeping Late Every Day*

            Maybe because the sports people in many places are too much like the jock/cheerleader types from high school who were on the power side of the social dynamic? Think country club, season ticket holders, privilege. The non-sport people have had to rely on being a bit defensive most of their lives.

              1. Seeking Second Childhood*

                Sports teams & cheerleaders are the definition of “cool kids” for many k-12 schools.
                Those of us who were bad in gym class were picked on.
                If your school was different, send a thank you to your PE teachers.

            2. Green Beans*

              Lots of low and middle income people are both athletically talented and follow sports. Lots of non-white-cis-male people are both athletically talented and follow sports.

            3. Yorick*

              I mean this with kindness so I hope it doesn’t come across poorly: If your high school athletes and cheerleaders left you with that kind of trauma, that sucks but you need to work it out in therapy rather than deal with it by being rude to your colleagues.

              1. pancakes*

                It’s a little over the top to characterize not wanting to watch something on TV or preferring other topics of conversation at work as manifestations of “trauma.” Not everyone has to like the same things. You also seem to be overlooking the fact that the person who said they call sports sportsball isn’t the same person who pointed out that a lot of people had bad experiences with jocks in high school.

        2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

          Yes. What purpose does saying “sportsball” rather than “sport” have, other than to indicate one’s disdain?

          1. Theo*

            It’s a lot more fun to say? Also like, as someone who has spent the entirety of my life with people trying to drag me into a conversation or to events surrounding a topic I have literally negative interest in because they think I’m boring for not being interested in it and I NEED to UNDERSTAND at least SOME of it or what kind of person am I??? ……yeah, I’ve got some disdain for the attitude and the fandom. I wouldn’t pull out “sportsball” on the first offense, no, but this doesn’t sound like a first-offense situation.

        3. clapping rat*

          I find it rude and childish too. But it lets me know who thinks they are better than those who happen to enjoy sports, so I suppose they can carry on with outing themselves.

      2. Glomarization, Esq.*

        I mean, how would you feel about a co-worker who, upon hearing you discussing a hobby you’re passionate about, would answer, totally deadpan, “I do not follow YourHobby, I am not a YourHobby person.” How does talking to a co-worker like this help you get along with others in your workplace?

        1. All the Words*

          It’s possible the person saying “sportsball” has been subjected to many monologues about sports, even after dropping subtle hints like “Yeah, not really a sports fan”, then “I don’t watch X sport” followed by “I don’t know who you’re talking about” “I don’t know the plays so I don’t actually know what that means”.

          Not that this would ever happen, of course.

    9. peachy*

      I also am not into sports at all. Don’t know anything about them. Don’t care to.

      Whenever it comes up in work contexts, I just give my best blank stare and make a quip like, “Is that a sportsball team?” Being vocal about your disinterest can sometimes help you find that one other person in the group who is also not into it.

      I went to a sportsball game for a work outing once. I managed to make it fun by finding another co-worker who wasn’t into it. We kept ourselves entertained by trying to Google the rules (because we had no idea what was going on) and making fun of how weird they were.

      1. quill*

        Much like the baseball bingo card, before cell phones, served to entertain people who had been brought along to the live event.

        1. peachy*

          I had no idea such a thing existed. Will need to look this up for the next sportsball game I feel obliged to attend. :)

      2. NJ Worker*

        Another non-sporty person here. My frustration is that why do the sporty people get to determine the conversation topics? I was at a social event – seated dinner. And we discussed sports. When I started talking crafts with the women, all the men literally were very vocally rejecting and talking over us. When I pointed out the sexism and misogyny — not allowed to discussed “female” topics in a mixed-gender group, but “male” topics are okay – I think I got through to a few of them.

        3. rl09*

          I think it’s equally sexist to assume women would prefer to discuss “crafts” ?? I know I certainly wouldn’t.

          The idea that sports are an inherently “male” interest is also sexist. Just because you personally are not interested in something doesn’t mean it’s only for men.

          1. WellRed*

            Ha! At our first work get together since before I wanted to run away screaming when all the women started talking knitting techniques! Gaaahhhh! I kept quiet knowing it would pass.

            1. rl09*

              Yeah, that’s kind of what bothers me about the whole “ugh sportsball!” conversation here…like there’s a lot of topics that I don’t care about, but I just smile and nod politely until the conversation moves on to something else. You don’t have to make everything about yourself all the time, you know?

              It reminds me of a coworker who (in response to others’ talking about their New Year’s Eve plans) said something to the effect of “ugh I can’t imagine a bigger waste of time and money than going to a bar! gross.” Like…I don’t really like going out on NYE either but just let people enjoy things, dude!

              1. peachy*

                I think there’s a difference, though, between cultures where sports occasionally come up in conversation, and cultures where sports tends to be one of the *only* topics of conversation. If it only occasionally comes up, sure, I can just smile and nod and wait for the topic to change. But in cultures where it’s the only thing that people talk about, and all team-building activities tend to revolve around it in some way, that feels alienating to someone who isn’t into it, hence the “ugh sportsball” attitude.

          2. Pippa K*

            This is true, but it’s also the case that sports, crafts, and lots of other topics are distinctly gender coded in many social contexts and that experiencing/enforcing/rejecting this as gendered is a thing. Thus the “fake geek girls” memes, the bro-culture/lockerroom talk as male bonding, etc.

            So no, sports aren’t “inherently male”; they’re socially masculine in many cultural contexts. This is problematic in lots of ways but noting it as a social dynamic in the workplace or elsewhere isn’t just coming from someone’s imagination.

        4. Malarkey01*

          I think like any conversation the interest of the majority of the people determine the conversation and usually sports is something that has a broad range of interested people. If one person is into sports and eight like crafting then that’s what you discuss. It’s polite to ensure everyone is enjoying the conversation and participating but steering the topic to something the majority aren’t interested in is a strange social tactic.
          Also classifying sports as a “male topic” is rude, sexist, and also pretty incorrect.

          1. Richard Hershberger*

            This. Sports have a broad following, so in any random group of people it is likely to be one of the few things most have in common. This is why I make an effort to know at least a little about the sports I don’t follow.

        5. pancakes*

          That sounds like a really boorish group. The idea that crafts are a female topic and sports are male is pretty sexist in itself, though. I don’t know how you’re not seeing that. If you want to attend more dinners with people who aren’t quite so hung up on gender essentialism you should probably drop it yourself.

          1. peachy*

            This is tricky. I’m with you on challenging traditional gender stereotypes and know that there are lots of women out there who like sports. The thing is, I’ve never worked in woman-dominated environment where sports was one of the only topics of social conversation which led to me feeling excluded. However, I have worked in male-dominated environments where it definitely felt like sports-talk and sports-related social activities were used to keep me, a woman of color (usually the *only* woman of color) excluded from the group and professional opportunities. So, yes, let’s recognize that an interest in sports spans the gender binary, but let’s not gloss over the ways that, historically certain interests have been used to signal what kinds of people do/do not belong in certain cultures.

        6. NJ Worker*

          I do understand the assumptions behind male vs female interests, and don’t share it. But this group skewed along gender lines, so that’s the way it played out.

      3. Might Be Spam*

        Making a game out of Googling the rules sounds entertaining. Maybe count points every time your companion yells or groans. Extra points if they hide their eyes.

    10. Quinalla*

      I like sports fine, but follow any right now. As long as it isn’t getting over the top, I just let folks have their sports talk and then move on. I also try to make sure to pipe about something I am interested in at others times too so it isn’t all-sports-all-the-time talk. Video/Board/Card games, books, baking, remodeling, kids, vacations, family, diversity, podcasts, etc. are things I talk about at work with folks and I’ve found that the non-sports people are generally thrilled to find others who don’t want to talk sports 24/7 :)

      1. Anony*

        This is good advice. If you don’t like sports talk, bring up another safe topic! I can totally see how people have a hard time coming up with topics for chit-chat and default to safe topics like sports, but if someone else started talking about something like remodeling or podcasts, I’d be happy to jump in.

    11. CBB*

      I have no interest in sports, but I also don’t care if other people want to talk about them. Why not let people enjoy a little comradery?

      I sometimes chat with coworkers about subjects that other coworkers aren’t into (music, books, etc.). As long as it’s not offensive, I should hope that my uninterested coworkers aren’t sitting there silently gritting their teeth in annoyance.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I think it’s fine when it’s one of *many* topics of conversation, but for some reason it can take over more than other topics, like mentioned in the original post.

        I think the annoying part is that sports people just make the assumption that *of course* everyone follows the popular local sports/teams.

        Weirdly, I’ve also seen this with poker, when everyone assumes that the general public knows the rules. I know a ton of card games, but never bothered with poker, which honestly seems kind of boring to me. (Lying to people for money is not a skill I’ve ever wanted to cultivate.)

        1. CBB*

          Yeah, I remember being annoyed by such things when I was younger. But now that I’m older, for some reason I don’t mind listening to small talk I can’t add to, or sitting out a card game I don’t want to play. As long as it’s not getting in the way of work.

          1. Charlotte Lucas*

            It actually bugs me most when either are a major plot point in a TV show. Especially when the writers assume the audience has knowledge that just… doesn’t exist in my household. (Totally OK with it in sports-oriented dramas, which I don’t watch.)

      2. Librarian of SHIELD*

        But it sounds like this office’s ONLY non work topic is sports, and that’s really isolating for people who don’t follow them. So yes, it’s good that the sports fans get to have camaraderie, but where’s the camaraderie for non-sports fans? We deserve that too.

        1. CBB*

          Maybe I don’t have a good sense of how much small talk happens in other workplaces. In my experience, chit chat goes on for a few minutes while we’re waiting for everyone to show up, and then we spend the next hour talking about work stuff. And there’s plenty of camaraderie to be had during the work-related discussion.

    12. a tester, not a developer*

      I managed to shut things down when I referred to the Toronto Maple Leafs as the Maple Leaves. Drove the hockey people to distraction, so they quit talking about it in team settings.

      1. Xena*

        To me, hearing people talk about “Maple Leafs” in any context would drive me to distraction, like having the one tile rotated in the wrong direction in a floor.

        1. Richard Hershberger*

          There have been linguistic analyses of this sort of thing. Often when a word that is inflected irregularly gets used in a specialized context, it will be reinterpreted so as to take regular inflections. A classic example from baseball is that the past tense of “fly out” is “flied out.” Another is that many people take the plural of “mouse” in the computer sense to be “mouses,” though my sense is that this is less common than it was twenty or thirty years ago.

        2. Forty Years In the Hole*

          The “Maple Laffs”…bless their hearts. Hubby leads/interjects/follows most convos with most of his (male) buddies on the state of play of the Ottawa Sens…but misery loves company.

      2. Junimo the Hutt*

        I shut down all people attempting to talk to me about sports by replying, when being asked Cubs or Cards, “That’s hockey, right?” Worked like a charm. Sports immediately became a thing nobody wanted to talk to me about, and everybody was happier that way.

    13. WomEngineer*

      I see it as good small talk. It’s also one of the few current events since most people aren’t going out like before COVID.

    14. anonymous73*

      There are plenty of pop culture topics that dominate the workplace that some people may not be interested in. I love football, but know nothing about hockey or basketball. There are some popular tv shows and movies I couldn’t care less about. If it’s dominating a meeting in the sense that you’re not getting work done, speak up and try changing the subject. Otherwise, just let it go. Just because you don’t have something in common with a majority of your colleagues, doesn’t mean they need to stop taking about it.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        OP’s point was that it has become the ONLY topic during their office’s ONLY time to socialize.
        There’s something to be said for finding ways to make the topic vary.

    15. Allie*

      While I am a sports fan, I hate basketball. Which is unfortunate because I work in Milwaukee aka home to the NBA champs. My brother would text me a cliche sports thing I could respond with most mornings during our staff meeting. So someone asks if I saw a certain play the night prior I would just respond back “Bucks in Six” or “Fear the Deer.” That might not be super helpful. When all else fails, just s*** on the refs and say they are blowing the game.

    16. Unladen European Swallow*

      I follow the local professional sports teams and enjoy having people in the office to talk about them. I’ve found that during COVID, one thing that makes it difficult for non-sports folks is that a group Zoom call holds everyone captive. So one or two people can be going on about a play from the weekend, but there isn’t a good way for other people to have a side conversation about the latest episode about a particular show, or whatever. This is different than when we were in person, where there could be multiple conversations going on at the same time.

      At one job many years ago, the agreement among a group of 5-7 of us was that the two people (me and another woman) could talk about sports for about 5-10min during lunch on Mondays and that was it. And that worked for our group.

      In my current office, non-sports conversation topics enjoyed by many are about food, kids/grandkids, weekend hobbies.

    17. ErgoBun*

      I’m the same but I generally just tune it out until people have finished their conversation. If it starts to go on a long time, or people are looking at me expectantly for some input, I usually smile and pleasantly tell them about the last cool maneuver I pulled off in my D&D game. They typically look exactly as confused/disinterested as I feel during the sportsball talk, and it usually convinces everyone to get back to the meeting agenda — or at least, lets me get back to work!

    18. RagingADHD*

      I live in a very sports-intensive area, and I’ve never really gotten into it. I can enjoy watching a game because I appreciate feats of athleticism or strategy, and I’ll root for whoever my companions are rooting for, but I don’t really care who wins.

      I just nod and smile. If someone asks me who I support, I just say “whoever’s winning” or “our side” or something like that.

      Gotta say though, as a fellow non-sporty person, I got used to not being a “cool kid” a looooooong time ago. Like, by middle school. Didn’t everyone? At some point you realize that being a cool kid just isn’t going to happen and choose your own alternate adventure.

      The coping mechanisms don’t really change as an adult. You can either fake it, or you can be tragically hip and Emo about being an alienated poet, or you can nod and smile and be generally friendly because you like the people if not the activity.

    19. NJ Worker*

      Another non-sporty person here. My frustration is that why do the sporty people get to determine the conversation topics? I was at a social event – seated dinner. And we discussed sports. When I started talking crafts with the women, all the men literally were very vocally rejecting and talking over us. When I pointed out the sexism and misogyny — not allowed to discussed “female” topics in a mixed-gender group, but “male” topics are okay – I think I got through to a few of them.

      1. NJ Worker*

        Also, I do understand the sexism inherent in male vs female interests. But there’s no way to do air quotes in text, I meant it ironically (IDK is that the correct word?)

    20. fakefootballfan*

      I also am not a big fan of sports. This year I decided to join my work’s fantasy football league for the hell of it and it’s actually been kind of fun. I’m winning right now because I just looked at the stats when picking my team and have no bias on any players. It’s been fun being able to poke fun at my coworkers for losing when I keep winning. If you don’t want to do something like that in the future, I recommend bringing up topics like movies, tv shows, and pop culture. Or things to do for fun in your city.

    21. Joielle*

      Ugh, yeah. It’s actually not super widespread at my workplace, but one of the very highest leadership people is a big sports fan and he ends up bonding way more with the other sports people, who are95% dudes. I have a brand new coworker who is a fan of one of the same teams as the higher-up guy, and he ends up getting a TON of face time because he’ll come by just to chat about last night’s game. It’s not a huge deal in terms of my career trajectory but it does kind of grate on me. Like, our agency talks the talk about DEI but if baseball fandom is one of the biggest ways to get face time with leadership, that excludes a lot of people!

    22. Sleet Feet*

      This thankfulky varies by team. No one talk sports on my new team. I love it. Makes chatting much easier.

    23. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I mean, people like to talk about the things they care about. The folks who care about sports have found each other and enjoy talking to each other about that. If it’s genuinely taking over a meeting — as opposed to being a main topic of pre-meeting chit-chat — that’s a problem. Otherwise, find folks who want to talk about the stuff you want to talk about and get to it.

    24. Hillary*

      I’m into sports as a spectator and have it in my small talk arsenal along with many things I’m not interested in (I’m a vegetarian who’s never shot a g*n in my life, but I can talk hunting and fishing if necessary). One thing I’m trying to lead on is adding other topics to our small talk. The challenge is a lot of people I work with don’t want to be perceived as geeky or other – we only figured out this week that everyone on my team is a sci fi geek when I brought up Dune.

      1. pancakes*

        I don’t think it is often necessary for people who want to talk about sports or guns to dominate conversation that way, though. Why would their interests take precedence over everyone else’s? I don’t think seeing a sci fi movie makes anyone a geek, either. Dune is the top movie at the box office right now, and has been seen by millions of people – it’s not like it’s some esoteric thing that only a small subculture is aware of. The self-consciousness of your team around that seems a bit over-the-top.

        1. Hillary*

          It’s not that sports have to dominate the conversation – it’s that it’s safe small talk for the demographic along with kids, traffic, and weather. We have a lot of superficial contacts due to the nature of our jobs, and we have to work together in spite of the fact that many of us would never be willing to socialize. As an example, I work with people who probably still associate D&D with satanic panic. They almost certainly voted to deny rights from my friends, and some of them support a school board that has consistently refused to address bullying in a school district with a horrifying suicide rate. I profoundly disagree with their core beliefs and vice versa.

          Less political but still indicative – I accidentally made someone uncomfortable a couple weeks ago by suggesting learning a mild swear word in another language for an icebreaker. The culture’s starting to shift as many things become more mainstream, but we have to live in the world while change happens.

          1. pancakes*

            I think the key phrase here is “the demographic.” What you are describing is not the demographic everywhere.

    25. pancakes*

      I’ve never followed sports either, but I feel like this has been a non-issue for me because I don’t particularly want to fit in with sports people. We don’t have the same interests and that’s fine. I haven’t worked anyplace where it’s been a dominant topic in meetings, though. If it’s really taking up a lot of time I think you can definitely say something about that, but it would probably be best to leave your own lack of interest out of the request and make a point of focusing on how much time is being wasted instead. Or, if it’s always talked about for the first 5 minutes or so, show up a little late.

        1. pancakes*

          Which sports fans? I was referring to the ones I’ve worked with. It is theoretically possible I might have some overlapping significant interests with other sports fans, but with these particular people I don’t believe we did, no. I have since mentioned a lone sporty ex-boyfriend in another comment (one among many other men and women who, like me, aren’t into sports at all), but we didn’t work together.

    26. The Dogman*

      I used to enthuse about really violent sports like MMA and boxing, since more or less no one I ever worked with was into them. It usually pushed the convos back to something we could all talk about.

      I am with you, I like playing sports personally, but caring at all about people moving, hitting and kicking things on lawns is just so strange to me, let alone getting excited a team of certain colours did better than another team of different colours is just bizarre!

      Tribalism at it’s weirdest really… well maybe that is K-pop but you know what I mean! ;)

    27. Cle*

      I’m a nonsporty person, but my coworkers absolutely are. I just lean back and enjoy them enjoying things. It’s kind of fun to watch. If someone turns to me or expects me to speak, I just let them know that I don’t follow any sports teams, and that’s that.
      I used to get really annoyed, but the thing that helped with that wasn’t anything they did– it was reframing it for myself. I’m a big nerd. It feels so good taking a few minutes to delve into the details of Pokemon stats or making little Hitchhiker’s Guide references or whatever. I look at the sports talk as just another flavor of fandom and thinking about how it is probably so fun for them to go on about it with each other. I shift into people watching mode while they do it, or I just sit and make notes for the day or some other small mental task I have to do until they are done.

    28. NancyDrew*

      I loathe sports and sports culture. I would absolutely tune out if someone brought it up in a work environment.

    29. Massive Dynamic*

      I’m a non-sports person who’s worked at sporty offices… the best one was one where we were all invited to participate in various superbowl pools and bets, and it was always structured that you didn’t have to have inside knowledge on the teams to participate. I won our March Madness bracket thing! But don’t ask me which team of mine won so that I could win because I do not remember!

      1. Might Be Spam*

        When choosing teams, I pick the location that looks like it would be more fun for a vacation. I still lose, but sometimes I lead the week and that really annoys some people. I always do the worst, when I actually try.

    30. This again?*

      I’ve never understood this complaint. Everybody has topics they are interested in and ones they aren’t. Why not just say it’s not your thing and move on?

      I worked in an office where everyone was baby crazy. I am so NOT baby crazy, nor will I ever be so. So when people wanted to talk about kids, parenting, babies, etc., I just deferred.

    31. Mademoiselle Sugarlump*

      I’m sorry – I am a sports person, but I feel for you because at my company people are hugely into pop culture and are always talking about which Marvel movie is the best or making references to things I have no clue about. It’s not that I’m older, I’ve always been this way. Anyway I let it wash over me and if someone directly asks me which Avenger I like best, I say something vague like “oh, I’m not much of a movie goer”.

    32. tamarack & fireweed*

      This is one of those things where a) it’s totally ok to have a running conversation about a shared interest and b) it’s not going to remain a shared interest forever as new people come in. Same if it was opera, or marathon running, or any other absorbing hobby interest.

      I know that the good managers I’ve had would very much perk up if I said, casually “it’s a bit much, all that sports talk every time”. My current manager would handle it by cutting it off the next time and throwing in a new topic for a little chit-chat, and people have good enough social skills to know they’re supposed to tone it down a little and be more inclusive. Dunno what would happen if someone, or worse, two someones, were to keep harping on it.

      OTOH, I have no problem with people spending literally 10 seconds on it (ONE exchange of conversation), even if it’s a topic that for me to participate I would have to ask first “are the Red Sandals a basketball, football or baseball team?”

  5. House Tyrell*

    I turned in my notice on Monday and am working out my last two weeks now. I have my exit interview today and I’m not sure what they’ll ask? What do they usually ask in these? I’ve never had one! Also, my boss is mad I’m leaving and being passive aggressive and sometimes just downright aggressive and mean. Should I let it go since I’m on my way out anyway, tell her to stop, or tell HR?

    1. whistle*

      I’d let it go and take it as a sign that no good will come from you mentioning anything useful in your exit interview. Just give bland answers to anything they ask and enjoy the weekend!

    2. rl09*

      They’ll usually ask why you’re leaving, whether you would ever consider working there again, would you recommend the company to others, would there have been anything they could have done to get you to stay, etc. Sometimes they’ll ask if you are comfortable sharing where you are going, what your new salary will be, any benefits you’ll be getting that they don’t offer, etc.

      As for your boss, I would just let it go, and take it as more evidence that you made the right decision to leave.

        1. rl09*

          I still wouldn’t. You should always assume anything you say in an exit interview will be relayed back to your boss.

          1. ...*

            If they think they won’t get a good reference, then maybe they should still share with HR. If HR wants to know why there is turnover, this will give them an answer.

            1. Sleet Feet*

              I’d go further and say, if they don’t expect to ever work at that company again, as these exit interviews are sometimes held to the same standard of “don’t trash a former employer”.

              Also in general if a company only waits until there is turnover to see how employes are doing (e.g exit Interviews instead of stay interviews) then that’s a sign they actually don’t care. Speaking up risks you for their maybe gain. It’s generally not worth it.

          2. Sleet Feet*

            Yep. I once left a glowing exit interview for a boss. 99% positive, and the only piece of critical feedback I left was pretty benign imo. Essentially they loved to tell a story of Bob the Slob getting drunk at the Christmas party 10 years ago. So I shared as a new hire hearing the anecdote made me uncomfortable since it impacted the way I saw Bob before I even worked with him and made me worry my boss would tell embarrassing stories about me too.

            When I reached out for a reference a few years later my boss was like – “No. Afterall I may embarrass you with my stories.”

          3. tamarack & fireweed*

            Well, that’s the idea of it, yes. But given you’re gone, or practically gone, they don’t have an impact on your employment any more.

            I have, on occasion, seen points in meetings of senior-level employees where “feedback from exit interviews” was summarized. Such as “one of our retention challenges is X [unattractive health benefits, a difficult local labor market for employee spouses, rising housing costs in our locality] and therefore we’re considering Y as a counterbalance measure”.

            As for feedback on the individual manager, it could in a well-run company totally become part of the manager’s performance evaluation, and it’s relatively low-risk for the leaving employee to give it.

            1. tamarack & fireweed*

              (Reading some of the other comments, maybe I should clarify that the feedback I was envisaging was of the scrupulously professional kind. At least in the absence of a major situation of harassment or discrimination. If it’s basically a crappy boss, that could look like “the workload was unmanageable / the stress level really high, and I didn’t feel that management was able to turn this around effectively”, or “[manager] and I didn’t mesh too well, and I saw no development path for me at [company], so I looked elsewhere”.

    3. Rayray*

      Depends how bad the aggression gets. It’s one of those things that you could report if you felt like their bad behavior would affect others.

      If your boss were to send any nasty emails though, I’d suggest replying and blind copying HR so you have solid proof about how they’re behaving. We need to stop letting bad bosses get away with being aggressive and petty when people quit jobs.

    4. Mbarr*

      It’s usually just you and HR in the room, and they’ll ask about why you’re leaving, thoughts on the company, what could have been done to keep you, where you’re going, etc. Once I was asked, “If you could tell our CEO one thing, what would it be?”

      As for how honest you should be – I think that’s a judgment call… If you think HR will protect your comments, then go ahead. But it could also maybe leave a black mark on your record if you ever want to get hired there again. (Maybe? I have no proof of this.) When I left one company, our national headquarters for an international company, I was very honest that I thought nothing was accomplished, that employees didn’t accomplish things, etc. I don’t think I could ever apply there again.

    5. Student*

      Sometimes it’s a pretty basic survey to take some satisfaction survey and get some basic info on what your next job is.

      Sometimes they want to know exactly why you’re leaving.

      None of what you say is remotely confidential, so if you are worried about professional repercussions, it’s not in your own interests to be honest. If you are not concerned about repercussions on future references, or willing and able to risk it, then there is a very modest chance you could help point them at real problems to fix.

      Most of the time the HR person conducting the exit interview is just as apathetic as the person leaving, and they are going through the motions because their boss requires it. In those situations, they’re very unlikely to act on anything you say. Had one just straight up ghost my exit interview, and I can’t say I was sad about it.

    6. MissBaudelaire*

      At my last one, they asked why I was leaving. I refused the in person interview so I did a survey. The options were “Leaving this field”, “relocating”, “education”, stuff like that. They also asked if there was anything they could have done to retain me, wanting to know about pay and benefits.

      I sang like a bird and any place I could leave a comment, I did. I was leaving for the toxic environment, explained why it was toxic, detailed the injuries I had sustained working there, talking about the crappy boss I had. I didn’t care because I didn’t (and don’t) intend to work there again. I have interviewed, and the crappy culture remains, so me saying anything didn’t change anything.

      1. Jax*

        At my last company, Director shared the HR compilation of exit surveys (including comments) with our management team each quarter, and I have to share what that side of the table looked like.

        – “Only angry people fill these out. Take it with a handful of salt.”
        – “Obviously this one was disgruntled.”
        -“I know who this one is. Good riddance.”
        -“Good point, but that’s an IT issue. Nothing we can change.”

        The comments people carefully filled in? Largely ignored. The only thing our Director cared about was the overall average score improving, and that no one sitting at our table was directly called out by name. Zero strategy or meaningful changes happened from those surveys.

        So…yeah. Either decline, or make bland comments. In my opinion, the exit survey won’t improve things for the people you’re leaving behind or make a meaningful difference. When my time came, I used it to thank the people who helped me grow in my career and didn’t bother saying anything bad. Senior leadership wasn’t receptive to it, anyway.

        1. MissBaudelaire*

          Doesn’t shock me. Nothing I said was exactly news, either. The issues were widely known, and no one cared to fix them, so I left. Meh.

          I worked out my two weeks, I didn’t have a disciplinary record, my boss got fired, my department no longer exists. When that facility is called for a reference, all they do is confirm the dates I work there and that I was eligible for re-hire.

          Felt better to now I told someone the problems, not that it mattered.

        2. Jax*

          Forgot to say to original OP: My experience with two week notices is that the first week is usually rough. Management seems to be cool, passive-aggressive, or mad–to me, anyway, because I’m sensitive to people “not liking me.” Meanwhile, they are trying to find a solution to the labor crisis you just gave them, not necessarily angry because you betrayed them. (YMMV. Some managers are ridiculous.)

          Week 2 is always better! 90% of the company has come to grips with your news, they have a basic game plan, and you’re starting to pass off projects to others. If they are still being weird, usually by Wednesday you develop a, “Oh well! Not my problem any more!” bounce to your step and suddenly you don’t care at. all. The back end of Week 2 is all *chef’s kiss*

      2. London Calling*

        I filled in one of those.

        Would you work for this company again? Yes.
        Would you work for this manager again? No
        Would you work for this ED again? No

        And left them to make of that what they would. I didn’t hold back on the staff survey issued mid-pandemic about what staff thought of the support they were getting from management while WFH, though. Knowing that company it made zero difference.

    7. Growing Strong*

      I have not actually gone through an official one and only had one unofficial one where the person that I turned in my notice blurted out asking why I hadn’t come to them for a counter offer. “You can’t afford me now” was my one moment of cool in my life.

      The official questions that they ask vary widely from organization to organization. The main thing to remember is that you owe them nothing. No information about where you are going, why you are leaving, etc.

      Answering truthfully is dependent on whether you want to preserve the reference and believe that anything will change based on your feedback.

      Most people default to bland “opportunity that I couldn’t pass up” language, and that is perfectly valid. Not everyone wants to resign in cod.

    8. Countess of Upstairs Downstairs*

      I can only speak form my own personal experience that the exit interview content can vary widely. For example, I had an exit interview with HR at a large organization. The only two things that happened in the “interview” was 1). the HR rep handed me an “exit checklist” and asked me to make sure I did everything on the list before my last day – It was super mundane stuff like “return all assigned keys to rooms, closets, and cabinets.” They didn’t ask anything about my experience working there or about my boss. I don’t think they cared. 2). the rep went down her own checklist and told me some boilerplate info about last paycheck, PTO payout, standard disclaimer about COBRA, etc.

      Another one at a different large organization was just a brief call with an HR rep. It was basically “We’re grateful for your contributions at our company, best of luck with your future endeavors. Do you have any questions? No questions? okay good luck bye!” To me it didn’t seem fairly perfunctory (not that I minded), but I got a sense they weren’t planning to get into discussions about my personal experiences.

      Of course YMMV. Personally, if I were you, I wouldn’t get into specifics about your Boss at the exit interview.

      1. Sherm*

        The checklist thing happened to me, too. I was leaving a toxic organization, and I was so looking forward to speaking my mind and holding nothing back…but the “exit interview” consisted of being handed a form and filling out basic information.

        As for the OP’s boss being mean, I would say “Boss, I am here for these 2 weeks for the purpose of courtesy, but if you don’t share that purpose, then it makes more sense for me to move up my end date.”

    9. lemon*

      The only time I’ve done one, it was very obvious that I was leaving because of a bad boss. I resigned just a couple of weeks after having to report him to HR for an incident that made me feel physically unsafe. So, during the exit interview, HR asked me point blank if that is why I left. I answered extremely truthfully and totally unloaded about all the dysfunction I’d put up with there. They also sent me a survey to fill out, which asked about the things other people mentioned: your new salary and benefits, satisfaction levels, etc. I also unloaded in the survey. But I only felt comfortable doing so because I already knew I couldn’t count on that boss for a reference, so I had nothing left to lose. So, if you feel like the relationship is salvageable and you could count on your boss for a reference in the future, I wouldn’t be too honest during the interview.

    10. BayCay*

      I’ve been here. I would just let it go and chalk it up to a “Thank goodness I’m leaving a toxic environment” realization. At least you know your decision to leave was the right one.

    11. anonymous73*

      I’ve done one and I was honest about why I was leaving and my feelings about the way my manager treated me. I only disclosed things that I was directly involved in or had first hand knowledge of, and in your case I would 100% tell them how your boss has been behaving. It may not do any good, but a well run HR office will document your comments and make changes due to a history of bad behavior (key words “well run”).

    12. Anonymous Hippo*

      They are usually just looking for “why” and not necessarily from the standpoint of “fixing” more about ticking off a box that says “them not us”. For example the last time I left it job it was 99.9% because I was miserable in the job for about 100 reasons, and 0.1% because the new job paid me double. I just told them the double part. The discussion was very quick lol. So I’d just come up with a reason they can’t argue with and give that.

      That assumes you don’t want to tell them. I think you don’t owe them at all once you’ve quit, but if you wanted to share the true reasons you totally could.

      IMO, if your boss is being aggressive, passively or not, you should tell HR, if they are doing the exit interview tell them then.

    13. Leela*

      I’d tell HR right now that your boss is doing this. And that you’re worried about needing to use the company as a reference due to her behavior and it’s putting you in a difficult spot professionally, AND maybe mention that you’re intending to fill out the 2 weeks for the company but you’re not interested in doing so if this is how you’re going to be treated.

      I wouldn’t bother putting it in your exit interview, I never see changes come out of that and while it can feel very good to finally be able to tell the truth after having to hold it in while you’re still at the company, the actual benefit is pretty slim – they probably won’t change anything based on that, and if you ever need to come back to this company for something it could put you in a spot that’s more uncomfortable than it needs to be.

      1. Rich or Poor...*

        Co-signed. I’d report the behavior as well. A professional/manager should not be antagonizing a notice-giver for fun.

    14. awesome3*

      The one I’ve had was like, here’s how to get the money you put into your retirement account, here’s what we’ll say your dates of employment were if someone calls for reference, etc

    15. STG*

      I’ve always been honest during exit interviews about my reasons for leaving although I might pad it a little with a compliment of some sort. ‘Oh, Bossperson was easy to approach but I struggled with their micromanagement style.’

      1. Geek5508*

        Hah, my exit interview with the VP went so bad she actually called my boss to tell him to cancel my going away party !

    16. House Tyrell*

      Hi everyone I just had the exit interview and I think it went well! We have only had 1 HR coordinator the whole time I’ve been here and so the director I spoke to has only been here for a month. She was really interested in learning more about big picture stuff about the organization’s dysfunction and I softened the stuff about my boss a little but she still said she was sorry that was happening and to let her know if I wanted her to step in. She also told me how she will step in and phrase things to intervene with some other issues with my boss without bringing it back to me directly which made me feel comfortable. I didn’t tell her every little detail so it didn’t turn into me trashing my boss but I kept all your comments in mind which was helpful in balancing what I wanted and needed to try and make this job better while also protecting my future reference.

    17. Higher Ed*

      Give general reasons for leaving and don’t elaborate, since this won’t be useful when the boss is already angry. I gave my boss background info as to my thinking on the matter of leaving after I gave my notice and her normally cool demeanor changed immediately. After the fact I realized that I should have been more perfunctory.

  6. Sir Humphrey*

    I am a brand new manager who has broken Allison’s cardinal rule: never take on a managerial position without the ability to fire. Here’s the reason: I work in federal service.

    Jane has 7 years of underperformance, but in an area where there were only 2 employees, no one had the energy to document (projects late and/or full of errors.) During COVID, Jane lost a sibling, a spouse, and last week, a parent. Jane’s judgement has always been off–under the guise of helping, she causes confusion. Here’s the crux: Jane is the nicest person in the entire organization. (Personally, I think that there are issues of using niceness as a manipulation, but I can’t pinpoint it. Plus, I am a cynic anyway.)

    Any advice?

    1. Monty & Millie's Mom*

      I guess the best advice I have, since you can’t go back in time, is to start documenting now. Be very factual about the effect of her actions/nonactions on the job itself. But also – probably brace yourself for having to deal with Jane for the foreseeable future. Good luck!

      2. anonymous73*

        Agreed but know that it may not resolve the situation. Not sure if all government is the same, but my husband is a manager in the government. He can write his people up, but as long as they do what they need to do for the period of time specified, the PIP is removed and essentially wiped from their record. So basically the same person can screw up over and over and won’t ever be fired because the history of their screw ups is essentially pointless. My husband has one of these people on his team.

    2. learnedthehardway*

      I would be supportive, since she’s legitimately reeling at this point from the losses she has experienced.

      Your “supportive” can include taking an active interest in her work and closely supervising to make sure she is getting the work done, or reassigning the work as needed, or getting her to run any decisions she makes by you before sending things out of the department.

      1. ANon.*

        Agreed, even if she has had past performance issues, this is the time to cut her some slack. She lost her sibling, her spouse, and a parent. That must be incredibly hard to deal with.

        You may want to recommend your EAP to her, assuming your company has one.

      2. Littorally*

        Right.

        I’m sure Jane is endlessly frustrating, but Alison has handled these kinds of questions before and I like her approach — if someone has been allowed to bump along at the bottom of the barrel for years, you have to have a really good answer why their performance is suddenly a problem now, when they’re in the middle of a really awful life situation.

        Obviously, since Sir Humphrey is a new manager, there’s the desire to get things up to snuff, but if the department has lasted for 7 years with Jane doing the Jane thing, it can probably get along a little longer while she recovers from these blows.

        By all means offer more support and see if you can encourage better performance from her, but I would not start the PIP process at this time.

    3. Anonymous Koala*

      Is there another position at a similar salary band that Jane might be a better fit for? In fed service sometimes transfers aren’t that difficult, and Jane might be happier doing work that she’s better suited for. Could you have a (sensitive, but frank) conversation with her about her strengths and goals and work with her to find a position that fits better? If she’s really nice and diplomatic, maybe she’d be well-suited to a public facing position (if you have those)?

    4. Grits McGee*

      No advice, but deep sympathy and commiseration. The only time I’ve seen someone actually fired/put on a PIP is when they’ve completely stopped doing any work or they make the same major error multiple times after being warned (ex- continuing to call members of the public “baby mama” after being told to stop multiple times).

      The only advice I can give is at least start the documentation process, and work with HR to make sure you’re following the letter of the law. With a 2-person team, this will probably be less of a risk, but also be mindful of whether your attempts to hold Jane accountable will cause issues for her peers. I worked in an office where the managers had been trying to discipline one employee for years, and to try to get proof he was shirking they made everyone spend hours detailed logs of work they had done to demonstrate problem employee was doing a fraction of the usual work. They assigned problem employee to group tasks they new he would mess up, and the rest of the office would have to pitch in to fix the mistakes. Well, 4 years on, problem employee is still in the office, but almost all of the productive employees have left.

    5. just a thought*

      One of my former roommates was the internal council to a government agency. He said it actually is possible to get people fired for poor performance in the government, it’s just very time consuming and has a lot of paperwork, so most people are too lazy to do it and just live with the problem person.
      You would try to learn the process, begin documentation, and start now.
      It will probably take awhile, but it is possible.

      1. Hlao-roo*

        I want to echo that you can (usually) fire someone in federal service, it just takes extra effort/time/documentation.

        I think your best course of action is to (1) address Jane’s under-performance and judgement issues as they come up and (2) learn and follow the termination process. I’m guessing there will be a lot of overlap between conversations about Jane’s performance and the termination process. Best-case scenario: through active management and coaching, Jane improves as an employee. Worst-case scenario: you have to jump through all the bureaucratic hoops, but eventually, Jane is no longer your employee.

      2. Atlantic Toast Conference*

        I think your former roommate is generally right!

        My husband I both work for the feds. My husband’s job is to write a certain kind of report; generally, he is supposed to deliver about one report a month. He had a coworker who’d worked for his agency for 6+ years, and had never delivered a single report. Several bosses had just accepted that this was how the coworker was, and essentially washed their hands of the situation. Finally someone came in and decided it was time to deal with her. It took about a year, and quite a bit of managerial time and effort, but they did finally get her out. A lot of times people just don’t have the desire (or bandwidth) to do that, though.

      3. Fed Too*

        While it is possible to fire, as a new manager (and maybe new to your agency?) you really need to find out what your agency’s requirements are. I’ve worked for one agency that did effectively use performance plans and assessments and did remove people for performance. I have also worked with an agency where people watched porn repeatedly and someone stabbed someone else with a pencil and neither situation got more than an “official document in their file”.

        So find out what your leadership’s take is, make sure you have very defined roles and responsibilities with definable metrics, start supervising Jane more (some fed performance issues are due to never having great management in the past), and then start documentation.

      4. LDN Layabout*

        I always bugs me when people say ‘you can’t fire people in government jobs!11!1!1’.

        You very much can and there are detailed guidelines to describe how to do so and quite frankly it should require proper documentation to take part in something that’s ultimately fairly lifechanging for someone that you (the employer) has a responsibility towards.

    6. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

      You can fire. It just takes longer and is more effort. You need to have the paperwork, so as people have been commenting, you need to start documenting. Then you will likely have to move to the PIP phase where Jane has set goals that she has to meet, and you will have to keep documentation on until it is resolved, or she is fired. Also, check with the unions to see what the process is, because some federal orgs have unions that specify what steps need to be taken.

    7. Shiba Dad*

      I agree with Monty & Millie’s Mom. One question though: has anyone ever confronted Jane about her underperformance?

      I would recommend that as you document what she is doing wrong you should meet with her periodically if you don’t already. Maybe meet with her for a project review after a project has been completed. Give her feedback of what she did right and what she messed up.

    8. Policy Wonk*

      Start by talking to your HR. Yes, you should be documenting, but how? What documents does HR accept/want to see? Do they have a process for putting her on a PIP? Is Jane part of a bargaining unit? If so, there are likely very specific procedures to follow, based on the contract. March in lock step with HR, and make sure to get their guidance in writing to be sure you have the most recent info.

      Get copies of Jane’s last few employee evaluations. Given that you say she is the nicest person, even though you flag seven years of underperformance, don’t be surprised if they show that her work is outstanding. If that is the case, taking any action against her will be more challenging.

      Alert your chain of command of every step you are taking – you never want to blindside your boss. Don’t be surprised if Jane bad-mouths you to the boss and co-workers because of the steps you are taking, and gets others to join in her cause by singing Jane’s praises and saying you just don’t like her. Keep an ear out for the rumor mill. Probably can’t do much about it as you can’t discuss personnel matters, but you need to know what is being said. (And it will arm you when someone in the chain of command asks you about it.)

      And do us all a favor – don’t write her a glowing evaluation if she doesn’t deserve it! Sometimes a less than stellar eval is enough to get a poor performer to move on.

      And good luck!

      1. manager schmanager*

        Seconded. I went through a PIP process that ended with terminating the employee and all along HR was telling me to document but less helpful when I asked what that looked like in practice. The whole thing went to arbitration and the hours of time I’d spent on documenting wasn’t what they had in mind. Do not skimp on employee evals and if you have in person meetings or phone calls be sure to follow up with an email summarizing the meeting that just happened so that it’s clear the employee got the feedback

    9. ONFM*

      You’re going to have to start with her as if it’s day one. Have a clear conversation about expectations, abilities, and deadlines – then hold her to them. You want to be compassionate, and you should be – but you also need to have clearly documented her performance issues. Offer EAP and document that. Check in regularly. Provide her with the resources she needs to be successful, and document the outcomes. I’m a little concerned that your message doesn’t seem to offer space for her to actually improve; what are you going to do if she is able to turn it around? That’s the goal, of course.

      1. All the words*

        This! The majority seems to be jumping on the “you should fire her” bandwagon, but I saw very little in the letter about actually managing this employee.

        I’ve been the struggling employee (for reasons outside my control). My manager worked with me and helped me move into a different position where I was able to succeed. In my case, this was probably the best solution for all of us. They could have chosen to fire me. That would have been the easy solution for them, and would have put me in rather dire straits.

        Still here, years later, doing very well.

        1. Kathenus*

          Years back I inherited a bargaining unit employee with a lot of baggage, and HR’s guidance to me was to ‘manage her up or manage her out’ – set clear performance standards (that had to be consistent with those others were held to), provide consistent oversight and guidance, and hold her accountable to the standards including documenting as needed. She ended up choosing to move on herself, but agree with ONFM and All the words to use your management platform to give her the tools to succeed or the rope to hang herself, then it’s her choice.

      2. None the Wiser*

        This is what I came here to say. And what do you know of Jane’s previous manager(s)? Perhaps they weren’t the right person/people to manage her effectively?

        Start at the beginning, as if Jane was just walking in the door herself. Try to start from a place of positivity and support for Jane, who is surely at a low place in her life right now. You becoming her manager is an opportunity for her, too.

        This is not to be all glitter and unicorns. If she truly is not right for the position, you can also simultaneously document that despite all your best efforts, she still cannot perform to expectations.

    10. Hiring Mgr*

      given that you’re “brand new”, where are you getting all this info about Jane’s past seven years, that she’s manipulative, etc? I’d certainly watch closely but i would also be willing to approach with a clean slate if this is all just second/third hand

    11. Leela*

      Document now and talk to her NOW. Very clearly about the changes you need to see, and be very direct about what happens when the goals you’re setting with her aren’t meant. It’s really unfair to her and you (and your staff) to do anything else. The employees in question won’t always know something is wrong, if no one has documented or talked to her about it, she might think that everything is fine. Even if she knows she’s making mistakes, she will know that everyone does and she probably doesn’t have a high level on every one else’s work to see how many mistakes and what kinds are allowed, unless she knows that she’s *really* messed something up (like released confidential info or cost a bunch of money on a mistake).

      Already, “you’ve been messing up for years but no one really told you about it” is a very upsetting conversation to be on the receiving end of if you’re working in good faith. If everyone was just wringing their hands hoping she’d “get it”, they’ve been expecting her to be psychic.

      All of this could culminate in you needing to let her go still, if she’s causing issues and not improving when told it’s not fair to you or other staff to have that just continue. But if you don’t give her solid, extremely clear feedback with very tangible changes that she can implement, and an idea of what has to be implemented by when, you’re actually failing her and not the other way around!

      1. Leela*

        *Well, it could still be the other way around, but you would be failing her if you didn’t tell her that she’s apparently been bad at her job for years with no coaching, explanation that it’s happening, or discussion about change

    12. pancakes*

      If you’re weighing her niceness against her poor performance as if niceness is an essential part of her performance, you are manipulating yourself a bit. It’s not as if she’s crawling into your mind and pulling levers to make that happen. It isn’t cynical to speak as if she somehow prevents people from addressing her shortcomings; it’s deflection from years of complacency around it.

      I agree with the people who are saying that you need to start documenting her underperformance, and you need to be sensitive to the fact that she’s probably reeling from all those losses. Maybe you can move her someplace rather than try to get rid of her.

    13. PollyQ*

      Is there no possibility of coaching her into better performance? I know, poor judgment is a tough thing to teach, but given that you say firing is somewhere between “difficult” and “impossible,” it might be worth the effort anyway.

    14. Anonosaurus*

      I have worked with people who have suffered multiple bereavement over a short period and it has also happened to me although not quite so quickly. I find that people who have not yet sustained such losses underestimate the extent to which they impair all kinds of performance – memory, cognition, general coping ability. It’s really very difficult to understand that unless it’s happened to you. I certainly didn’t realize the effect it would have. It’s not a lack of compassion it’s more that people can’t grasp just how profound the impact is on just about everything.

      This is not to say that Jane should be able to underperform without anything being done. But surely the real issue is that Jane was underperforming before the shitstorm hit her and nobody dealt with that at the time? This is regrettable because I don’t think now is the time to come down hard. Not only would that be lacking in compassion but Jane may have limited ability to change at this stage of her bereavements, even if she is motivated to do so.

      I would be wondering if there is a different role in your agency that may suit everyone better -including Jane. And being clear about your expectations and consequences, per AAM standard advice. I don’t doubt that Jane needs to be managed and that her limitations impact others, which needs dealing with, but the tone of your post suggests you have already decided that Jane is incapable of improvement, and may even be cynically manipulating you and others. I don’t think that’s a great mindset to take into this process, especially given her personal circumstances. If Jane has never really been managed, one possible outcome of doing so is that she improves. If you see this as solely a process of being able to fire her, you might miss that. I’d try to keep a more open mind.

  7. Sunflower*

    Does anyone else have so much work on their plate right now that it feels impossible to excel at what you’re doing?

    I plan events and we pivoted right to virtual during the pandemic. My number of events skyrocked since then and I’ve felt so maxed out putting out fires that I haven’t felt like I’m able to run the amazing events my boss expects and I’ve just been getting by at pretty good. My company knows everyone is stressed and maxxed out and generally seems they would prefer we handle more volume than increase quality but I feel like I’m getting dinged on this when it comes to review time (I’m generally told to be more creative or given vague wording about elevating my events- things that are very hard to do with an already full plate). With year end reviews coming up, I need to speak to my manager about this especially if I am not promoted.

    My manager in general never asks about my workload and the few times I’ve tried to push back, she tells me I need to find a solution if I want something off my plate (when I’ve tried to suggest specific names to lend a hand, I’m told that person is over capacity also). Help?

    1. Cat Tree*

      I’ve been in jobs like this. Since you have raised the issue to your boss and she’s completely unwilling to help (which is literally part of her job), your best option might be searching for another job. This won’t get better by accident and you don’t have the power to make meaningful change to the system. In my experience, supportive, competent management is much much much more important than the actual work I’m doing when it comes to job satisfaction. Being in a position where you have all the responsibility but very little authority is a recipe for disaster.

      1. Anonymous Koala*

        This. It’s a job seekers market, especially for people with experience in virtual events. I would start looking.

      2. Llama Llama*

        You have described my job perfectly here. I’ve told my boss I can’t do everything, told them I needed help, that we needed to prioritize…and I just get nothing back. I’ve tried to offer options and solutions and ideas and it generally comes back to “everything is a priority” and “there is no more capacity” meaning no one who currently works there can help me and we can’t hire anyone else so I have to do it. As a person who wants to excel at her work I feel like I am doing mediocre at everything just to hold it all together and that makes me hate going to work. I used to get so much gratification out of this job because I could do it well. After this going on for more than a year I’ve decided to look for other jobs. This is a great example of “When people tell you who they are, listen.” Your company is not a supportive place to work and neither is mine.

        1. Be kind, rewind*

          Wow. Being forced to be mediocre at my job would make me miserable, too. That sounds really frustrating.

          1. Llama Llama*

            It is really frustrating. Especially because I used to really like this job and was really good at it when the workload was manageable but I have absorbed the work of three people and it’s just too much to be able to do it all well. My boss made a joke the other day to a new employee “Llama Llama can only do the work of three people, not ten!” and she meant it as a compliment but I had to hold my tongue from saying something snarky.

    2. 1234*

      Can you use the phrase “I can do XYZ but I will need to give up something in exchange for that. What would you like me to give up so that XYZ can happen?”

      “You mentioned elevating my events in my previous review. In what ways should I be elevating my events? What actionable steps should I be taking to do this? This statement is unclear to me. I want to make sure that I understand what you are asking.”

      Also, are they open to hiring someone whose only job would be to help you/assist in your department?

    3. Ex-Dog Coor*

      The event industry is rough right now… Clients think virtual events are easier but in many ways they are much more complex! Can any of aspects of the event planning be outsourced to (trusted) subcontractors? For example, an event photographer that also runs a step-and-repeat so you don’t have to? Another commenter asked about an assistant. That could be useful for some of the administrative tasks that you may have to do, but I know that’s often not possible. Are there other metrics you can provide to your boss that show the increase in technical difficult and involvement that the change to virtual events has brought? Can you say “no sorry, I can’t take that on” when asked to do an additional project? (I know the answer is likely no, it’s so common for event production companies to never turn down a job…). If you can’t say no, can you say something along the lines of “Ok I can try to do this, but given X Y and Z, this new request is going to suffer and not be as polished as I would like it to be”. I had a boss like this, that would never let us turn down an event, no matter how last minute. Stating point blank, “We can take this on, but it’s going to be bad and/or fail entirely because of these reasons” usually got through to him.

      Otherwise, I second fixing up your resume to look for a new job. Events are coming back in a big way, and so many people left the industry during the pandemic, so there are openings out there! Good luck

    4. BayCay*

      She doesn’t ask about your workload because she knows it’s bad and wants to avoid talking about it.

      It sounds like your boss is well aware of the situation but either isn’t in a powerful enough position to make significant changes, or is hoping by burying her head in the sand, things will just eventually work themselves out. Both are unfortunate. Sadly, there’s not much you can do that you haven’t already tried, it sounds like. You’ve done your due diligence in not only bringing up the issue with her, but you tried to recommend a specific solution with suggesting people who might be able to lend a hand. Now, maybe she doesn’t think those people have the bandwidth to help, but it’s her literal JOB to find a solution to this serious problem, and she’s hanging you out to dry because she herself has no clue what to do.

      I hate to say it, but my best advice is to start looking elsewhere for a job, if you truly feel that your workload is unmanageable. It sounds like the company is struggling and your boss isn’t in your corner, fighting for you. I personally wouldn’t feel obligated to suffer through.

      1. Leela*

        Agreed. I think it’s very likely that she knows it’s bad and doesn’t know what to do/isn’t authorized or doesn’t have the resources to do something about it and is taking some kind of “hey, not everyone can hack this job” type of attitude I see a lot at jobs that are just bad and no one is fixing what’s wrong. I would definitely tell you to start looking elsewhere, or just understand that you’ll only be able to do mediocre work and finding a way to come to terms with that (something I’d really struggle with myself, if I was in that same situation!) Good luck:/

    5. Ama*

      I was kind of in that place earlier this year — mostly due to a perfect storm of events that left me with no support staff at a time when we had planned out a level of work that should have meant hiring extra people. To be honest I got to a point where I did not care if I got fired because the job was taking so much out of me so I just started making my own decisions about what I could and couldn’t get done, and if anyone asked about a project I had decided was low priority I would just say “I have had no time to work on that and that’s where it is going to stay until someone else can pick it up or [long laundry list of more urgent projects] are done.”

      I should note that I am priveleged to have a partner with a well paying job and enough savings to float us for several months of reduced income, and my partner was supportive of the fact that I couldn’t continue on as I was. (We were also pretty sure my employer wouldn’t fire me because there are crucial day to day tasks I do that literally no one else there knows how to do. They had absolutely made their own bed by understaffing my department for years and I was finally mentally prepared to make them lie in it.) So I totally understand if that isn’t an option for you, but it was where I found myself about six months ago.

      My boss was much more sympathetic than yours (although it still peeves me that I had to start literally dropping the ball on things and burst into tears in a one on one before my years of regular complaints that my workload had grown beyond what one person could handle actually sunk in), and we have both hired two new employees for my department as well as moved towards a restructuring that will mean I have much less involvement day to day with about half of my old workload. It’s tenable, for now, I no longer feel like I need to quit without anything lined up at the end of the year (which was the deal my partner and I made if things had not improved).

      BUT, I am still looking for another job because it has become very clear to me that my employer has become too reliant on my strong performance bailing them out of their habit of committing to projects before they realize the full scope of the work and I don’t think it is good for me or my current employer’s professional growth to continue this relationship long term. However, at least for now I feel like I can get through the work week and continue to contribute here while I look for something new.

    6. Quinalla*

      We’ve been very over capacity in Q2/Q3 of this year, it was rough, but damn my bosses have been nothing but supportive, pitching in where they can, adjust deadlines if we have to, helping us figure out how to spread work out in highly creative ways, etc. I would be pissed in your shoes frankly if your boss is just like, welp too bad. What solution are you supposed to come up with to make the work magically get done?

    7. Disco Janet*

      I think pretty much all K-12 public school teacher’s can relate to having too much to do and not enough time/resources to get it all done, so yes, I know what that is like, and I’m sorry you’re experiencing it!

      I’ve found it helpful to figure out what things are really important to my boss, and what things do they not really notice if I let it slide. For example, my boss really pays attention to how our classes begin and end, so spending some extra time planning that is worth it. On the other hand, he really doesn’t care at all if I take forever to submit my development plan or if I’m a slow essay grader. So I can prioritize/arrange my time accordingly.

      Now if they care equally about everything, then it’s trickier and even more unrealistic.

      1. Flower necklace*

        Yes, as a teacher, I can definitely relate to being overworked. Right now, I’m handling it by putting in an insane amount of hours, but obviously that’s not healthy or sustainable.

        I think it does go back to having a supportive boss. The admin team is well aware that teachers are feeling overworked, and I know they’re doing everything they can to mitigate that. They can’t control everything, but the choices they can make are oriented towards reducing teacher workload whenever possible. If they weren’t, then I would definitely be looking.

    8. Chaordic One*

      This! My large employer was shut down because of COVID last year. Different departments were shut down for different time periods. I was furloughed for a month before let me start working from home, but other departments were furloughed for longer periods of time. (up to 6 months in some cases.) Supposedly everything is up and running now, but we are so far behind with everything and it is creating so much extra work. Stuff was sent in, but it is not being processed because of the backlogs, meanwhile bills are being generated by the computers that show balances unpaid and paperwork not being submitted.

      I get phone calls from clients and most complain about having to wait on hold before they get to speak with a CSR, but then these same people are completely unprepared to provide the account-related information that is required to address the issue they’re calling about and I’m so frustrated by all the extra research that is required to locate the information they need and all the extra time it takes.

      They get a notice in the mail, but they don’t have it with them. They don’t know their account number, they don’t know the address their account is listed under, they don’t know any previous addresses their account might be listed under, they don’t even know their own name. (The account is listed under the name they used when they applied for the account. It might include a middle initial or a suffix like “Jr.” or “Sr.” If you married and changed your legal name, if you didn’t submit a change of name form, we’re not going to know and it will continue to be listed under your old previous name. Moreover, I’m not allowed to change the name on your name over the phone. There’s a department dedicated to that and they only do it when you submit the form and supporting documentation.) They set up the account under a particular business name and then changed it, without telling us.

      We’ve had 4 times as many phone calls in the last year as we had 2 years ago in the pre-COVID era. But these same people who complain about the hold times are unprepared to speak about the issue they’re calling about and then wonder why it took so long for them to get a CSR.

      My employer has been on a hiring kick lately, which is good and which is actually helping some, but the new hires aren’t really up to speed yet and it is going to take a while for them to get there. Meanwhile, I just feel like we’ll never get caught up.

    9. MissDisplaced*

      If you have an overload, it’s normal to sort of “stick to the template,” for easy repeatability. You just can’t spend the extra time to elevate or get creative and think outside the box.
      This doesn’t necessarily mean your review would be hurt by such a thing if the volume has increased dramatically since the pandemic though.

      If this is a continual, I would say you do need to talk to your manager about the workload and if they want volume/repeatability or creativity/innovation?
      Or, maybe there is a solution to choose 2-3 events you’ll put more effort into while the rest can be more standardized?

    10. Overload*

      Yes- it feels like because we’re so good at what we do they keep on giving us more. They don’t realize that they’re burning people out. Plus, we’re not able to excel on the things we’re meant to do because people keep on giving us more. Unfortunately there’s also a culture of not being able to say no without some implication that we’re not being positive or a team player.

  8. Burning Dimly*

    Can anyone help with how to deal with burnout towards the end of a career? I have about six years to go till early retirement and am counting the days. I can only manage early retirement due to a policy within my employer, so getting another job is not an option. And my area is specialized, so changing departments is not possible.

    Right now, I just feel like I am existing and nothing matters. I can rouse myself to do thing directly for people, but working on continuing projects or creating new projects seems beyond my interest level.

    My vacations are occupied with helping my mother in a retirement center, so taking off to a beach is also not something I can do.

    Kinda down, but know that I should be grateful that I will be able to retire a bit early. So guilt on top of the disinterest.

    1. Panicked*

      Six years is a long time to be in a job you don’t like. Would a switch to another employer/career field make it easier for you to work to a typical retirement time?

      1. Burning Dimly*

        Panicked, my area is specialized so any switching to another employer would require moving. And, well, my friends are here. Right now, I am trying to convince myself that trading six more years will be worth it for the five years early retirement. So close, but yet so far.

        1. Hlao-roo*

          I think you should take a good, long look at all of your options. Not in a “you must find a new job and move away from your friends” way but in a “you must convince yourself you are really on the best path” way.

          Based on your comments, the paths that I can see are:

          (1) Stay in your current job. Live near your friends. Retire in 6 years.
          (2) Find a new job in your same industry. Move away from your friends. Retire in 6 (maybe?) years.
          (3) Find a new job in different industry. Live near your friends. Retire in ?? years.

          Obviously there’s a lot of nuance that I’m missing as an internet stranger, but if you look at your life and options more holistically and staying in your current job is far and away the best path, then I think you will be able to feel better about your work while you’re there.

          1. Burning Dimly*

            Hlao-roo,

            Thanks for setting out my options so clearly. The second and third options would involve working an additional five years unless I work for other branches of the same employer. So I am trying to manage in my head by telling myself that I am roughly trading one day of being at work (the remaining six years) for a day of retirement (retiring five years early). It seems the best path, but I hear Alison lecturing in my head about wage theft whenever I want to (or actually do) slack off due to lack of interest in my current job.

            Thanks from an internet stranger.

            1. Your Local Password Resetter*

              If you’re struggeling with burnout and what certainly sounds like some kind of depression, then that’s a health issue. Not an ethical one. You’re clearly trying to do your best, and failing at your job does not mean you’re deliberately scamming your employer by being there. It’s just the reality of what you can handle right now.

              Given the options Hlao-roo gave, I’m also wondering if option 1 is actually feasible. Even if you’re willing to endure six years of a miserable job that you’re failing at, can you actually keep that up? Six years is a long time, and burnout is notorious for sneaking up on people until they collapse completely. If some personal crisis hits you halfway through, or you just run out of endurance, do you have a fall-back plan?

              I’m also wondering if you’d prefer to trade one work day and a retirement day at this job for two work days at a job where you aren’t unhappy or burning out? Are you making the trade because the retirement days are so valuable, or because you want to get away from your job?

              1. Burning Dimly*

                Your Local Password Resetter,

                You have given me a lot to think about. I think I have been so focused for so long on retiring early that I haven’t thought about changing paths. I started counting days at 13 years, 6 months, so have progressed fairly far toward the early retirement goal. Just kinda feels like slogging through molasses right now to get to the end point. My job isn’t miserable, btw, just feels like nothing matters. And there is a lot of turmoil ahead with one direct supervisor retiring next year and my other direct supervisor’s boss retiring this year. Maybe I am more down than normal as well, since this is the time where we lose light.

                I appreciate you giving me a lot to consider.

      2. CBB*

        Agreed. Now that I’m approaching 50, I’ve started thinking about how I spend my time in terms of how much time I have left. Even if I live a long life, six years represents a not-insignificant percentage of that time.

    2. A Beth*

      Can you take a small step back/dial it in a little bit for a while without jeopardizing your job and retirement? Your second paragraph seems like that’s possible; you prioritize the immediate needs but don’t create new projects. I’m sorry you’re going through that!

      1. Burning Dimly*

        A Beth, thanks, I have stepped back a bit (mainly sulking that the powers that be won’t let me continue to telecommute) and no one has noticed. A bit of a blow to the ego, actually, but focusing on things such as AAM are getting me through my day.

        1. Jax*

          You’re not alone in feeling this, regardless of stage of career! Count me as another No Telecommute Sulker. I thought I wanted to come back and be around people and I wouldn’t mind it, but *I mind it*. I’m annoyed by the commute, annoyed by climbing into dress clothes at 6:30 a.m., annoyed at packing lunch bags and travel mugs, annoyed that I can’t step away without a reason because I’m in an office full of people again, annoyed that even though I’m not I *feel* micromanaged just by virtue of having to SIT HERE FOR 9 HOURS.

          Also, we’re still in a pandemic! Everyone is just pretending that the whole thing is happening in some alternate reality that can’t touch us, but my mind seriously won’t work that way! We’re in masks, still being careful, stick freaking out over random fevers and trying to protect elderly relatives and non-vaccinated children. Am I supposed to just absorb the contact tracing phone calls from the school nurse and chuckle or something? None of us have had a real vacation in 2 years, or normal holidays, or normal *anything*. Of course work isn’t lighting us up inside. We’re not in the “new normal” yet–we’re solidly in transition.

          Just keep showing up, hun. That’s all any of us are doing! You’re successful each day you keep going. :)

          1. Windchime*

            This comment basically sums up the entire pandemic for me. I think that it has caused many people to take stock of life and to realize that just working until we are too old and sick to work is not the way we want to live. I lost three cousins (one to COVID) and my dad this year. I also turned 60. I decided that I had worked enough; fortunately, my financial advisor also thought so and now I am retired. I won’t live a life of travel and champagne and fancy stuff, but that’s not what I want. I just want to have control over my schedule and not have to sit at a desk doing boring shit for the rest of my life.

            I know it’s not possible for everyone. Insurance is hella expensive and I wish I qualified for Medicare already. But it’s a choice I’ve made and for now, it’s working for me (it’s noon and I’m still in my pajamas).

            1. Burning Dimly*

              Windchime,
              You are an inspiration for me. Someday I will get there. The policy that I mentioned is that my employer will pay for the employer part of medical insurance from 60-65 with some qualifications. Which is why I am hanging on for six more years. No other employer will have that option, that I can find in my industry. Happy pajamas!

              1. WellRed*

                I assume you’ve looked at other insurance options. Also, are the qualifications something you know you’ll still meet then?

              2. Zan Shin*

                Re insurance: a lot depends on what state you live in. I retired at 62 in California. By making sure I didn’t pull too much out of retirement accounts, I kept my taxable income low enough to get great insurance subsidies from Covered California (our version of Affordable Care Act). The subsidies actually brought my monthly insurance premium, for a decent plan, LOWER than what I now pay, on Medicare, for my part B premiums + supplemental “Medigap.”

    3. Alex*

      The fact that you aren’t able to use your vacations to recharge sounds pretty difficult, and I’m getting the impression from that that you’re going through challenging times in your personal life, not just at work. Getting some support from a therapist could help you in both places —maybe it’s not going to make everything zesty cheery but having someone professional in your corner can help you handle stress and strategize, because it sounds like things are really hard. Wishing you the best.

      1. Burning Dimly*

        Thanks Alex. Yeah, it is somewhat challenging right now, but no more than any other person whose employer is handling the pandemic…not great. I worry about my mom and she is the last relative that I have. I have not had good experiences with therapy, but maybe there is a good one out there.

    4. a tester, not a developer*

      Can you talk to your leader about shifting your focus towards user support (doing things directly for people) and baking away from project work for a while? Even people who aren’t eyeing early retirement get burned out on project work – I say this as someone who is 3 years into an 8 year project, and trying to remember why I thought this would be fun. :)

      2. Burning Dimly*

        a tester, my job is fairly split, so I am laying back a bit on the projects and focusing on the people side. Not sure if I would be able to change my job completely to the people side. Sympathy to you for being in the middle of a huge (seemingly never ending) project.

    5. dry erase aficionado*

      Can you get approved for FMLA to deal with some of your mom’s stuff so you can also use some of your vacation time for actual vacation? The time might end up being unpaid under FMLA, but depending on your overall situation the dip in income might be worth the benefit of an actual break.

      1. Anon-mama*

        This is a nice idea, but many workplaces require you to draw down your PTO when you’re on FMLA. If that’s the case, or just using it intermittently will still leave you unable to hit the beach, I’d instead ask if you can use sick leave for helping mom.

      2. Burning Dimly*

        dry erase aficianado, I hadn’t thought about exploring FMLA. I used it with my father’s chemo treatments, but not for my mom’s doctors appointments. Thanks!

    6. Business Librarian*

      I ran across a phrase that summed up how I’m feeling lately: existential exhaustion. It sounds like you’ve got it too. One thing is, I don’t actually think you’ll feel this way for the next six years. I believe that one day we will all walk back into the sunshine. If you’re like me that doesn’t help much but I really believe it’s true.
      We expect a lot of ourselves especially if we’ve always been good at our work. Just doing what’s in front of you rather than getting creative the way you’ve been before feels like slacking. You’re not slacking, you’re surviving a global plague and major political problems. Even if you think you haven’t been affected directly, you have been.
      I’d concentrate on loving yourself for making it through this long, and think about special treats for every week. Really savor some good chocolate or take a slow walk near some trees. Whatever does it for you, plan it like it’s a work project and enjoy it as much as possible. Good luck and best wishes!

    7. Self Employed Employee*

      Burnout is an actual mental health thing, and maybe you can focus on that part? I work for myself and do not get to retire, and I have also been suffering burnout for the last few years. For the last 3 months I have taken it on as a health issue and… things are changing! Slowly, but I am starting to see light again. I am starting to be creative again. Everyone is different, but for me, I just needed to let go of every obligation besides work and rest so my brain can recover. I am wondering if there is anything outside of work that can help, even if you need to throw some money at it. What can you hire someone for that will free up your non-work time so you can get rest or time to yourself? Can you take some extra time off? Can you hire someone to help with your mom just for a short while?Can you talk to EAP and see what they say? Burnout is not fun at all. I hope you can find something that works.

    8. Sail On, Sailor*

      Burning Dimly, you are me from five years ago. And I very much get what you are saying.

      I love my career, but have been with a company that sucks the souls out of people. I’ve stayed mainly so I can be eligible for the retiree medical benefits. Now retirement is finally just around the corner.

      The only way I’ve been able to get through the past five years is to 1) focus as much as possible on the parts of my job I still love, and 2) keep my eyes on the prize (retirement).

      I wish you the best of luck, and strength. Try to hang in there! (Agree with the commenter about seeking appropriate help, though.)

  9. Goose*

    I made a dumb mistake counting deliverables and we were short five. They go out today, and I’m about to go run around trying to find replacements. Do I offer to cover the cost? I signed the invoice and confirmed everything had arrives (and what’s worse is I was sure I counted everything correctly, but I clearly missed something.) It’ll be about $30 out of pocket

      1. londonedit*

        Definitely don’t offer to cover the cost. I’d just go with a simple explanation like you gave there – ‘I could have sworn I’d counted everything correctly, but I’ve just double-checked and we’re five short. I’ll source them from elsewhere but annoyingly it’s going to cost us $30 – I guess I’ll be triple-checking from now on!’

    3. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      No definitely not. This is the cost of doing business. I would just explain that you could have sworn you counted correctly, how you’ve fixed the problem, and any new checks you’ll build into your process to help ensure this doesn’t happen again. You sound like a very conscientious person. Good luck!

    4. Math is Hard*

      No, and any organization that would accept money from their employees for an honest mistake manufactures red flags.

      Can you go back to the company that was supposed to deliver the, er, deliverables and see if they have a process to double check what they sent?

      Also, what is the chain of custody of the deliverables? At my employer, we have had some items “go Elvis” (left the building) after they were checked in and before they were provided to the requester. The more transportable and the looser the chain of custody, the more likely the items poofed on their own.

    5. Goose*

      Update: I was able to get half of the missing items, but in the process scraped my car and paid for parking when it should have been free. My guilt is assuaged?

      TGIF y’all

  10. no dogs on the moon*

    is it weird if i try to set my end date for a day the office is closed? it’s possible i may be giving about three weeks notice in the next few weeks where the last couple days would be on a day we’re typically closed for a paid holiday. would it be weird to ask for my last day to be on a holiday so i don’t lose wages? i have a pretty good relationship with my team and it’s important to me not to burn a bridge, but i also don’t totally know how me leaving will go over. i don’t want to seem rude or out of touch!

    1. A Beth*

      I’d be surprised if they agreed to that. I’d say plan to be in the week after the holiday to be eligible for holiday pay.

      1. no dogs on the moon*

        that’s fair! my tentative start date with the new firm would be the monday after the holiday so i’ll just anticipate wrapping up before the holiday and stick to ramen for my unpaid days off!

      1. no dogs on the moon*

        only in the sense that if i do two weeks and have that full week off i wouldn’t get paid for the days we’d be open that would be part of the third week, which i can’t afford (which in turn is part of the reason i’ve been looking to move on, ha ha)

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      A lot of employers won’t pay for that holiday unless you’re on paid status the day before and after, so you’d lose the wages anyway.

      1. Anne of Green Gables*

        This came up for me this week , actually! At my institution, you have to be present at work on your formal last day. You can’t use vacation and I don’t think they’d let you use a holiday.

    4. MondayMonday*

      I gave notice that would have fallen during a weeks vacation. To mitigate, I gave 3 weeks notice instead of the standard two. The week in the middle was my planned vacation and then I was back for a week to wrap things up.
      If I were you, I wouldn’t count the company holiday in your notice and add another day on the back end. OR when you give notice, ask them what will work best. Maybe your last day can be on the holiday if everything is wrapped up.

    5. Alternative Person*

      Depends on company rules, you’d have to check in with HR and maybe accounting for an answer. Some companies might be fine with it, especially if you’re not leaving stuff hanging, others may want the full two weeks for whatever reason.

  11. Dr. Doll*

    I plan to retire in a few years, a little bit early. I want to take on a second career, which will require me basically to get a second bachelor’s and master’s degree. Is it ethical of me to begin that process at a community college right now? Community colleges generally serve people who need a boost. I don’t really need the boost, I would be doing it because community college is more flexible. Thoughts? I am especially interested in hearing from fposte if she is around, as I have great respect for her judgment as regards higher education.

    1. ecnaseener*

      Community college is an awesome resource that more people should use. I really don’t think they’re intended exclusively for people who “need a boost” — you’re fine!

      1. Coenobita*

        Community colleges are for everyone!

        The word “community” is right there in the name! :) In my experience, career-changers and people with full-time jobs who want to take a class or two on the side are generally a core part of the community college student body.

    4. House Tyrell*

      I work in higher education and it’s definitely not unethical to go to community college! Anyone can take any classes at community colleges and they are not just for people who need a boost. Life long pursuit of education is admirable and you should go for it! Also, community colleges collect tuition dollars and need enrollment numbers to report just like any other college and admissions aren’t run on a one in-one in policy so you aren’t “taking” a spot from anyone.

    5. Also an academic*

      Not fposte, but I also work in higher education and have experience w/ community colleges. It’s 100% okay to attend one even if you don’t consider yourself as needing a boost! The whole point of community colleges is that they serve the community, without regard for how well-resourced/under-resourced people are. Also, though, enrollment is down at many community colleges around the country right now, so you’d be funneling much-needed tuition money towards one right now.

    6. Overeducated*

      Community colleges are funded by the state for the broad benefit of the community, as well as by your tuition dollars. They are not just for people in need, and adults take classes there while working aaaaall the time. I don’t think there is any ethical question here – go for it!

    7. Two Chairs, One to Go*

      What do you mean by ethical? Anyone can take classes at a community college. It’s kind of elitist to think only people who “need a leg up” can go there. Many CC’s also offer non-credit education so people can learn all sorts of cool things.

      Something also to consider is that your CC might not have the classes you need to earn a bachelors, depending on your field of study. The same can be said of 4-year universities. And some programs don’t allow someone with a degree to enroll. I’d start by doing that research if you haven’t yet.

      1. fueled by coffee*

        Like everyone else said, community colleges are there for everyone!

        I *would* recommend, though, since it sounds like you already have a Bachelors degree, to look into what the entry requirements are for your intended Masters and see whether you actually need a full second Bachelors, or if taking X number of courses in the field will be sufficient. Saving time and money is almost always worth it.

    8. learnedthehardway*

      Sure! Why would you feel that is unethical? You have every right to get the education that you need. Community colleges exist not just to help individuals, but also to ensure that the overall economy is served. Whether you go to the local one or one in another city, you’re going to be contributing to the economy. That’s entirely aligned with the goal of community colleges.

      Also, you have a lot of work experience – your fellow students will benefit from that. You’ll be able to provide some work perspective that could be helpful to them, even if not in the same industry that you’re targeting. eg. you’ll know how business people think about problems, and that ideas that might seem amazing may have hidden costs that people without a lot of work experience wouldn’t be aware of. So, you can provide value as a mature student to your classmates.

    9. Bloopmaster*

      I’m confused about the idea that “Community colleges generally serve people who need a boost” – and that attending one without needing this “boost” would be unethical. Community Colleges serve communities and the people who live in them regardless of why they want or need post-secondary education. As long as you are planning to take your studies seriously and be respectful of everyone you meet there, there’s nothing unethical about attending one because you need flexibility (or for pretty much any other reason).

    10. Adademic Anon*

      Not unethical at all! I work at a university and when I was considering getting a masters at my institution, I went to the local community college to brush up on my higher math. The degree that I was thinking of required calculus and mine had degraded. No one questioned taking community college classes, especially since they had quite a number of returning students in the classes. The boost you are referring to can be applied to the flexible scheduling that the community colleges have versus the presumed full time attendence for a university.

      Attend away!

    11. peachy*

      Community colleges are awesome and they are for everyone. As others have pointed out, enrolling actually helps them out because it gives them tuition dollars and can possibly boost numbers for under-enrolled classes that might be on the chopping block soon. I’ve taken classes at a couple of community colleges, and there were often other working professionals in my classes. Also, if you do well in your second career, it reflects well on them. If you really want to assuage your guilt, you can give back as an alum by donating or mentoring students.

      1. Windchime*

        Yeah I am a big fan of community college. My son earned is AA there way, way cheaper than if he had spent those 2 years at University. He was then able to transfer to University and finish his bachelor’s. I was looking for a career change in my late 30’s and took 2 years of classes at that same community college and it changed my life; I got a job in IT and was able to live comfortably for the first time in my life. People overlook community college as “less than”, but I believe they are an under-appreciated resource.

    12. Anon for This*

      Of course it is ethical! My son took a required English literature course at a community college, and half of the class was retired people who liked to take interesting classes here and there. Community colleges do help give some a boost, but they are there for everyone.

    13. Hapax Legomenon*

      I did my first two years of my bachelor’s at a community college and I felt I got a better and more academically rigorous classroom experience there than at my four-year university. Community college is a great resource, and it’s not just for people who “need a boost,” it’s for people who don’t think they know everything already and want to keep learning–just like any other kind of school.

      1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

        My son did that, too. It also really cuts down on college debt because community colleges are so (relatively) affordable. It’s especially good if you don’t know what your university major will be.

    14. JB*

      This is like saying it’s unethical to go to a library if you can technically afford to buy your own books.

      Community colleges exist to serve everyone in the community, and the more people they serve, the more resources they receive. It’s not like you’re stealing a scholarship or something.

    15. Zennish*

      FWIW I’ve worked at a community college. They are for anyone who might benefit from them. It’s true that they usually have a greater focus on nontraditional students, which is why they offer a more flexible environment, but that isn’t limited to people needing a (I assume you mean socioeconomic) boost. You’d certainly fall under the usual definition of a nontraditional student as someone older working towards a second career.

    16. Anonymous Luddite*

      The only way this would be unethical would be if you are taking your community college classes during punched-in work time without your bosses knowledge or pre-approval.

    17. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’m taking community college courses purely for fun, because after 10+ years of being a full-time student (I have two bachelors and two masters degrees already) I have a hard time not being one. (Hey, I don’t knock your hobbies. :) ) Go for it.

    18. Canonical23*

      There’s nothing unethical about going to a community college! Having worked at two in my career, I’ve seen everyone from wealthy housewives taking classes because they’re bored to high school students that need a challenge to broke 20-somethings that are trying to get into a field that will give them more security. Community colleges are for everyone. Also – the money you pay for tuition will go into their revenue and allow them to offer services and funds for students who do “need a boost.”

      Schedule an appointment with an admissions counselor – they would love to talk to you and recruit you to their campus.

    19. Veronica*

      I’m a mentor at a community college. One of the side benefits of college is meeting fellow students. Going to community college will widen your perspective and provide your fellow students with the benefit of your experience in the work world.

    20. Generic Name*

      Community colleges are just that. They are for the community. They are meant to be accessible to anyone who wants an education. They are not specifically “for” any particular population or income level. You may be surprised that many of your fellow students are just like you. :)

    21. Dr. Doll*

      Thank you everyone! I will rock on!

      Explanation of why I asked: When I began to apply online to my local CC, there were so many questions on the form that indicated that the primary groups expected to participate are historically underserved and marginalized people. It seemed to be “their space” into which I would not want to intrude as a person with both privilege and resources. (I’m coming from a good place – maybe donig it rwogn, always possible.) Also I’m not sure if they have too many students, and if my taking a spot would in fact prevent someone else.

      I don’t need a full second BS, of course. I need a bunch of math. I am in the same boat as the commenter whose calculus had degraded – the only thing I remember from calculus, literally, is what an integral sign looks like! I might be able to write a quadratic equation. So I really need to start with college algebra, and feel lucky that I don’t have to go back to sixth grade arithmetic. :-D

      1. Pickle*

        They’re doing this (asking these questions) because they need to answer/report on this data to the state/accrediting entity.

        Lots of community colleges struggle with enrollment, especially sustained enrollment. You being able to pay, on time and without aid, is a tremendous boon to them and their need-worthy students.

      2. Pickle*

        Also – community colleges generally accept all applicants. You’re not taking someone else’s spot by applying – you’re reserving yours. Apply away!

      3. Anne of Green Gables*

        Yes, I agree with both of Pickle’s statements. (Community college employee here, I posted below before seeing your clarification)

        All those questions are probably things the institution needs to report on. Community colleges also realize that students (ALL students) are really struggling right now and likely have programs in place to help students be successful, so some of those questions are possibly to determine who needs things like a laptop or hotspot for online classes or food support or extra financial support–all things that my college is actively doing with CARES Act/federal funding relating to Covid. But just because you don’t need those things doesn’t mean community college isn’t for you!

      4. A Beth*

        Your explanation definitely makes sense but I’m glad folks with more CC experience have chimed in!

      5. MissDisplaced*

        Remedial math is one thing community college is perfect for! I spent a LOT of time in both my early 20’s and 40’s at community colleges. It’s perfect for the don’t know what to do young, the broke, the career changers, and the people who just love lifelong learning.

        Go back, enjoy, and good luck!

    22. Mrs. Smith*

      I taught community college for years and it really is for everyone – first-gen students, returning learners, second-career starters, traditional students, students needing remediation, those hoping for an affordable start before transferring, retirees auditing interesting classes – everyone. And you are part of that: when you contribute to classroom discourse, your experiences and ideas make that ferment even more rich for everyone who is in it. So jump in!

    23. Gul DuCat*

      I have worked in community colleges and they are for everyone! They can make life easier because they often aim to be flexible, and I think it’s a richer environment when there are a lot of different people from different situations all working toward goals. And, you might even be paying taxes to support the community college, so it is indeed everyone’s!

    24. Cle*

      I work at a community college and we have all kinds of students. I love it, and I think a lot of students do, too. The huge range of abilities and backgrounds and ages is awesome, and I think is difficult to find anywhere else. Yes, you’ll find more services geared towards those who are more likely to struggle than yourself– because usually they’re the ones who need more services. But that doesn’t mean it’s not for you, too.

    25. My straight A kid goes there*

      Community colleges are for everyone in the community.

      Please stop perpetuating the myth that community college is only for kids who “can’t handle” real college or didn’t thrive n high school.

    26. Anne of Green Gables*

      I work at a community college in a large metro area. (Top 25 in population in the US but not top 10) The estimation I have heard is that 1 in 4 adults in the metro area has taken a class at my Institution. It really is a “something for almost everyone” kind of place with continuing education, trade programs, 2 year associates that transfers to the state university system, ESL, and tons more. If you do take classes at your local community college, I think you’ll find that there are students there from all kinds of circumstances.

      If it helps, my institution has an active campaign geared toward attracting students like you, who are adults looking to re-train. Also, community colleges are really hurting right now (nationally, enrollment at community colleges is down about 15%) and their funding depends on numbers of students enrolled, so you’d actually be helping your local community college!

    27. Beth*

      I’ve been to a small, very expensive private college; a great big state-funded university; and a community college.
      Some of the best teachers I’ve ever had taught at the community college. I can’t quite imagine why you would think it’s unethical. Go for it.

    28. RagingADHD*

      Is it ethical for you to check out books from the public library when you could afford to buy them?

      Of course!

      The resource exists to be used, and by using it you are helping to make sure it stays available for everyone.

    29. Chaordic One*

      Of course it is ethical for you to begin that process at a community college. They’re there to serve the community and you are a part of the community.

      There is a bit of a stigma to attending community college. Sometimes the stigma is deserved, but most of the time it is not. There have been times when my community college was not well-funded, classes were over-crowded and there weren’t enough classes to accommodate all of the students who wanted to take them. During those times I can understand why someone might decide to attend elsewhere.

      I do hope you’re not allowing unfortunate, usually undeserved, stereotypes to dissuade you from attending community college. If the schedule works for you and you can enroll in the courses you want, I hope you’ll take advantage of the situation and take the courses there.

    30. SemiAnon*

      Community colleges serving people who need a boost is a side-effect, not the main purpose. I did my first year at the local college (Canadian system, so a bit different than the US) so I could live at home and save some money before moving away, and I have family who teach at them. They’re at their best when they serve a variety of students, not just people who can’t afford (or can’t get into) four year universities.

      And honestly, you sound like a classic case of the kind of situation where community college is ideal – you want to switch careers, and plan on taking courses part time while working, and therefore need more flexibility. Just be sure to check the transferability of the classes towards your planned degree, so you don’t end up having to redo stuff.

  12. Screaming Bug Prank Update*

    I posted a couple of weeks ago for feedback on “exterminating” the “fun” prank at my office – a prank involving hiding a screaming bug all over the office. The screaming bug has been relocated and the office has been scream-free for over a week. It. Is. Glorious.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Have people figured out that it’s gone or is everyone just on edge waiting to see where it pops up?

      1. Screaming Bug Prank Update*

        I haven’t heard any mention of it one way or another. Here’s hoping everyone has forgotten about it!

      1. Screaming Bug Prank Update*

        Ha ha, neither! I couldn’t risk it being put back into the rotation by our cleaning person. It hitched a ride in my purse. Haven’t decided its ultimate fate.

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          Well done!

          And clever, I was worried disposing of it at work would mean someone could stumble upon it and bring it back into circulation.

  13. Grits McGee*

    Does anyone else find that the perspective they bring to their job bleeds over into their personal life in weird ways? For example, I’m an archivist, and as a result I am *brutal* about culling my photos and personal papers. Not everything has enduring archival value!

    1. Albeira Dawn*

      Ha, whenever I have an open-ended, fairly large decision to make (like what neighborhood I should find an apartment in) I make very detailed forcefield diagrams which I learned from training at work for project management. I’ve also made critical path diagrams for larger craft projects with a lot of self-contained pieces that combine in the end.

    2. Cat Tree*

      Yep. I work in sterile manufacturing, and when I’m washing baby bottles I pay extra attention to “product contact surfaces”.

      Our company has also invested in human error prevention. I’m no expert but we all got some intro training and it’s hugely useful in my own life. For example, if I need to take something with me to work, I put a sticky note reminder on my doorknob the night before so I literally cannot get out of my house without seeing that reminder.

    3. Meghan*

      I work in academic science and I’m meticulous about labeling food that goes into my freezer. What is it, when it went in, and because its a habit I can’t break, my initials. Why do I need to initial the food that goes into my freezer? I DONT KNOW!

      3. Mockingjay*

        My grandparents raised a family during the Great Depression and were very parsimonious. They labeled everything in the freezer and refrigerator. In the pantry, canned and dry goods were stored oldest front, newest back and also labeled with date bought (the stamped label print was often too small to read).

        They dated the PAPER TOWELS AND TOILET PAPER too. I could only surmise it was habit.

    4. Anonymous Koala*

      Lol kind of. I’m a researcher and I do tons of research on candidate policies, political history on specific issues, etc. before voting each year. I didn’t realize that everyone doesn’t do extensive research before voting until I started talking to friends/relatives about how they choose whom to vote for.

    5. Bloopmaster*

      HAHA—I am the exact opposite type of archivist. I’m not getting paid to manage my personal photos and documents, so I am very unmotivated to do so, especially when I just spent all week culling and organizing.

      1. EA*

        this is me too! I’m an executive assistant and book a LOT of business travel and I HATE planning/booking my own personal travel

        1. SyFyGeek*

          This^. My friends and family have this idea that since I’m so organized at planning things for work, I must want to do it ALL THE TIME.

          Newsflash, I don’t want to do it. When I get off work, I don’t even want to decide where to eat, much less plan anything.

    6. Tom Servo's Sister*

      Hi! Also an archivist, and I find it comes up most with not letting people touch photos and copyright issues. Whenever copyright comes up, I into a “well, actually…” and then realize that no one cares.

      1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

        Oh good, I thought I was the only one who did that! I embarrass myself on FB sometimes when I start lecturing people about attributions.

    7. LunaLena*

      Yes, me! I have a very specific file organization system for my work files, and I always keep my files at home organized in almost exactly the same way. It’s how my manager/mentor at my first job in my field taught me to do it, and now I can’t do it in any other way!

      Also since I am a graphic designer who worked a lot in print and ad design, I tend to scrutinize the junk mail flyers that come to our house and point out all the design flaws, much to my husband’s amusement. More often than not I check out the design quality before I even notice what the ad is for.

      1. Ad Recall*

        A friend of mine used to work in a print shop and was the expert on making stuff work.

        He will look at an ad and be able to tell you what process they used and whether it was the right one, even down to the type of file it might have started out in the beginning. I say uh-huh a lot, but it does make him happy that he still retains his skills.

        And when he helped do the flyers for a county political campaign we were both involved in, I basically had all of the printing presses practically weeping at the quality that he generated. Apparently, the quality they get from small political campaigns were…variable.

    8. Anonymous Luddite*

      Ha! I remember when a friend of mine who worked in a college lab tried to take up homebrewing. Suffice to say, we had a long discussion about how “sterilize” can mean two different things.

    9. ShysterB*

      I am a lawyer — a litigator, in fact. My spouse and teenagers have, quite reasonably, asked me to turn off the litigator’s approach to asking questions when we are talking about things: “I am not an adverse witness!” has been said to me more than once.

    10. Buni*

      ugh, I’m just the opposite to you @Grits; I do a lot of volunteer work with kids so I’m constantly saving stuff I think might be useful, especially craft stuff – bits of card, ends of wool and string, shiny stuff.

      I currently have 32 empty egg boxes in my kitchen…

    11. Generic Name*

      I’m a biologist, and it’s basically impossible to turn that part of my brain off. I identify plants wherever I go. I birdwatch while driving (bad idea!!). My friends and family know they can text me photos of mystery plants to ID. I also help lead my company’s quality program, and I’m constantly thinking of how I can do things *better* and *more efficiently* at home. lol

      1. Generic Name*

        My most recent amusing plant ID was when I noticed a tumbleweed growing in the middle of a planter of petunias in a fancy resort in my area. I’m sure the gardeners had no idea it’s a terrible weed and should be pulled and thrown away.

    12. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      Formerly had a ton of design-adjacent work; I’m a bit better about it now but a poorly designed menu at a restaurant still makes me visibly cringe.

    13. Map Nerd*

      I work in GIS and have amused family and friends with my detailed rants about the shortcomings of the outage maps put out by our local electric provider.
      In my defense, they are TERRIBLE.

    15. Yesh*

      Yes – I’m a paralegal and I fall right into the same meticulous, note-heavy info/paperwork/email maintenance for my personal life as I need to do at work. I’ve gotten snickered at a few times by friends/family but it makes it a lot easier to resolve billing or customer service disputes when you have copies of everything filed away and notes about who you spoke with, when, about what, etc.

      Earlier this year I had to claim some $ from my state as unclaimed property due to notification errors by the bank on a joint account I had with my mother (we never heard they were closing the account and the $ got turned over to the state.) My mother couldn’t get past being infuriated and frustrated and I was just like, “hmm, collect documentation, fill out some forms, get them notarized, file it with a government agency, follow up on status… literally what I get paid to do! I got this!” :) Proud to say I got that check cut on the first try!

    16. Jay*

      I’m a hospice and palliative care doc. So yeah, that affects everything. I don’t think most parents talk to their 18 yo kids about a living will before said kid goes to college (she refused to do it).

    17. Not My Money*

      I do payroll and have to track/file all sorts of documents but my personal life filing is a bunch of piles until/unless my spouse takes care of it. I just can’t do it all the time.

    18. LCS*

      I work in Supply Chain and prepare a lot of construction bids. We were renovating our back deck and the manager of the construction deck at the hardware store offered me a job on the spot because of how ridiculously detailed my scope of work documents were for a personal project. Pretty sure in retrospect it didn’t need to be quite that intense (But the deck looks great! And was on budget!).

    19. talos*

      I’m a software developer, so I assume at best constant incompetence and at worst competent malice everywhere I see software.

      The field has some problems.

      1. Might Be Spam*

        So true. I had a boss put things into production without testing and absolutely couldn’t possibly work. She told me to stop testing so much.
        I also teach computer literacy as a volunteer because I love explaining how things work. Staff members tell me that my older students like hearing me “rant” about software quality because they don’t automatically have to blame themselves when stuff doesn’t work. Apparently it makes them relax and feel more comfortable.

        1. talos*

          It makes me really weird at parties, because I’m incredibly tech-skeptical, and I like my job but am not proud of it. Nobody can catch the rhythm of the conversation.

    20. Msnotmrs*

      I’m a librarian and I’m exactly the same.

      A friend of mine who is a correctional officer says he finds himself absentmindedly searching through his laundry sometimes instead of folding it, as if looking for contraband.

    21. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I’m an engineer. I often paraphrase a line from an episode of Miami Vice: “I’m a cop – it’s not what I do, it’s what I am.”

      I wouldn’t say it’s the job that necessarily bleeds over, but the thought habits that came about from 4 very intense years of education.

      I moved to a new area 7 years ago, and my second summer there my closest new friend said “Hey AB, want to come berry picking with me? I know a place where you can get a quart or two of wild black raspberries.” So I did. And then that winter I looked up the life cycle of the plant, and in the spring went out early along the trails, and off the trails, to find patches that people didn’t know about. And put together a private Google map with GPS coordinates of the patches and landmarks, plus a spreadsheet to track my harvests. Also built a drying rack so I could wash, dry, pack, and freeze the harvest. And worked on better techniques for brushing through the patches, avoiding thorns, identifying which patches are going to ripen next, etc.

      With the result that the next year I got 14 quarts, and the year after 29, and the year after that 38. A bad year for me now is 20.

      So at some point a bunch of us are hanging out, and my buddy is describing everything I went through to the group, and says “So in other words AB put a process together, and then **optimized it**!” And I involuntarily looked at him funny, because his slapped his head, and said “Oh duh, of course he optimized it.” I added “What’s the point of developing a process if you aren’t going to optimize it? That’s what processes are for.”

      So yeah, that’s my brain. I’ll let you know next year how I’m doing building an automated temperature-monitoring and drip irrigation system for my garden. Other people are happy using some scrap wood to build a raised bed. I’m going to use a solar-powered RaspberryPi computer with multiple sensors, a controller for some water pumps, WiFi, and a cloud database with web interface.

      1. James*

        “I’m an engineer. I often paraphrase a line from an episode of Miami Vice: “I’m a cop – it’s not what I do, it’s what I am.” ”

        I just told someone today that I (a geologist) am convinced that geologists and engineers are born, not trained. The training just polishes it off. The way we look at reality is fundamental to our personalities; it’s just a part of us.

        “What’s the point of developing a process if you aren’t going to optimize it? That’s what processes are for.”

        That’s one difference I’m talking about!!! To an engineer this is intuitive; it’s the natural first reaction. A geologist, on the other hand, wants to understand the reasoning behind the process. We’ll improve things, sure–but only after we fully understand what we’re dealing with. Or, to put it another way: You want to pick berries more efficiently. I want to understand what the plant eats (raspberries are fantastic for removing stumps), and how animals eat them (I’ve speculated that sauropods were berry-eaters after using a blueberry picker), and where to find the best berries (crouch down and look up), and how to use the berry bushes (I’m growing a ring of blackberry brambles around my house right now). Actually getting the berries is almost tertiary to me.

    22. Cheezmouser*

      One of my early roles included proofreading responsibilities. I cannot not see typos and grammatical errors wherever I go. My favorite error was a giant banner atop a grocery store that said “Re-Grand Opening.”

      1. allathian*

        I’m a translator and proofreader, and I’m the same way. At least I’ve learned to curb my enthusiasm for letting everyone know about the errors they’ve made, unless they’re truly egregious (pubic for public…). These days, if I’m not getting paid for noticing errors, I can ignore them.

    23. Four Horned Brother*

      Copywriter here, filling out any form takes me about twice as long as it takes an average person because I consider every possible alternate meaning of every question asked. I’m also obsessed with information categorization strategies and have trouble navigating the grocery store because I’m constantly spiraling deep into rabbit holes about why they made the decision (for example) to put bacon with eggs rather than with other meats.

    24. Animal worker*

      Totally – my career has been in animal behavior/welfare and I take that home not only to my critters but I see human behavior through the same lens – I can usually see both good and bad behavior in people as I go through my life and I have an internal conversation about the reinforcement history that caused it. And what could/should be done if those involved wanted to change it. I’ve also become the animal welfare guru to some of my neighbors to look at their pet set ups and offer suggestions.

    25. Sleeping Late Every Day*

      I’m the opposite. I was in an archivist-adjacent career, and I find it impossible to cull ANYTHING. Some of my family were multi-generational packrats, and the older things are, the harder it is for me to discard. I certainly don’t NEED those 1856 newspaper subscription receipts, but who am I to throw them out when so many generations before me kept them? Unfortunately for my conscience, most items are too trivial to donate to museums.

    26. LaFramboise (in academia)*

      This Librarian weeds everything-books, clothes, kids’ crumbling art projects. And also all the old crud at work. I fully support your m.o.!

    28. Susan*

      I’m a project manager but to my eternal shame I was very bad at scope control when I had my kitchen renovated. I fell prey to “while they were there” and ended up with not only a new kitchen but my entire first floor hardwood being refinished, an upstairs closet expansion (due to a chimney removal), and new paint and light fixtures in the kitchen.

      1. James*

        I had the opposite experience. Right after I became a PM my wife and I hired a contractor to put in a fence. I read the contract, read who was responsible for what, etc., the way I do for work (read, memorize forward and backward). The contractor keep trying to milk us for more money–they didn’t have everything so it would be an additional delivery charge, they needed someone specific so they’d have another mobilization charge, the fence was longer than they thought so they would have to charge extra. I calmly listened, pointed to the part of the contract that said what we agreed to pay, and informed them that I was unwilling to pay for their inability to read a document or plan ahead. They stopped talking to me, trying to con my wife instead–who immediately passed all questions on to me. (This is unusual in our relationship–usually she makes the decisions about the house, because I travel so much–she just thought it was hilarious watching me make the contractor squirm.)

    29. Chaordic One*

      More recently, in my current job as a CSR, I worry about our country and its future. It just seems like people are getting dumber and dumber. Of course, my outlook has been skewed because I’m mostly getting calls from people who have done stupid things, often for many years in a row, and it comes back to bite them. I’m not hearing from the majority of our customers for who pay their bills and submit all of their required paperwork on time and who don’t have any problems.

    30. James*

      My wife refuses to watch certain shows with me. I criticize the nitrile gloves. CSI uses a horrible brand. Warehouse 13 uses the good ones. The powder blue ones? I refuse to use them–too thin, they break if you look at them too hard!

      My wife and I both also have studied anatomy, and I have a fair grounding in Greek and Latin thanks to my science background (once you realize how organisms are named you can have a lot of fun translating them!). Once a doctor and nurse tried to talk over our heads, using medical jargon, while we were in the room. We both chimed in, as 1) we know what they were doing and were not happy with it, and 2) we were able to follow the conversation perfectly and ask some pretty pointed questions. The medicos instantly started treating us like we were real people, and involving us in the discussions about my wife’s care.

    31. Mademoiselle Sugarlump*

      I’m a tech writer. I write up instructions for things like how to clean the turtle tank filters (not a simple job) and re-write knitting instructions to make them more understandable.
      Before that I was a programmer. I have databases of my books and things I collect.
      Do I do these things because of my work, or did I get into that kind of work because my mind goes that way? Good question!

    32. Green Beans*

      Comms/writer here and yes and no! My writing for fun (like here) has gotten worse because now I only break the good stuff out for money. But I’m hella critical of communications campaigns (marketing, public health, whatever) and will happily pick apart what works and what doesn’t.

      I’ve also gotten really, really good at active listening and reflection, since that’s a big part of my job – what are you saying, what are you trying to say, how does that fit together into a story, what pieces are missing? Doesn’t matter if it’s a science paper, a COVID guidelines change, or someone processing a personal issue – the process is pretty much the same for any content.

  14. Me Again*

    How do you know when it’s time to move on to your next role? I’m struggling so hard because:

    1 – I like my coworkers and boss (boss has been at company for over 20 years so she’s not leaving anytime soon). Everyone is generally helpful and kind etc.
    2 – Generally, the job isn’t overly difficult and I can manage most tasks. I’m also being trained on New Skills due to the type of work we are getting in. My boss and I both agree that New Skills is part of my strong suit with room to learn more.
    3- However, I’m not interested in Company Subject Matter. The longer I’ve been here (5+ years) the less interested I get and I find myself making careless mistakes, even though I’m also known for great attention to detail. I was told this at a performance review one year and have worked to actively address this issue. They haven’t brought this up again.

    Honestly, if this job was for a company where I was interested in the subject matter and I had everything noted above, I would stay. So how important is it to be interested in the work?

    1. addiez*

      For me, it depends on the life stage and what’s going on outside of work. If your focus is on your career, it sounds like it could be a good time for a move – if your job isn’t really challenging you and you aren’t enjoying it. But if your life has a lot going on (caregiving, whatever else) then perhaps it’s helpful to just stay where you are and deal with all the other stuff.

      1. Mbarr*

        I’ll second this. I’m in my late 30s, and while I don’t super care what my company does, at least it’s mildly interesting. Now I’m focused on finding jobs where I enjoy the tasks and like my team members.

    2. ecnaseener*

      I don’t think you’ll know until you see what else is out there. This doesn’t sound like a black-and-white Move On From This Job ASAP situation, but you can start looking around! If you don’t find anything that’s more interesting and otherwise just as good or better as your current job, then you’ll stay. (Of course, with #1 especially you would have to trade something you KNOW you like for something you HOPE you’ll like — the hiring manager could seem nice in interviews and turn out to be terrible.)

      1. just a thought*

        This is probably the ideal situation. You can afford to be picky and take your time. You can look for something you would like better but don’t have to settle for a job that would be worse.

        Like Alison says, it goes both ways to decide if you also want the new job. You can interview or get an offer and still decide you prefer your current situation.

    3. learnedthehardway*

      Sounds like it is time for a new challenge for you. You’ve been there 5 years. While you could continue to learn and grow, it sounds very much like you have outgrown your current role and need to move to find a role that will be sufficiently engaging for you. The fact that the company’s subject matter is not of interest to you just makes the decision more obvious. It’s almost lucky this way – if the company’s subject matter was truly, deeply interesting to you, you might be too comfortable to realize that you’ve outgrown the nest and need to fly.

      1. Me again*

        5+ years :) Closer to 7 – 8. I started as My Title and then promoted to Senior My Title in 2018.

        I think it’s the “Know You Like This” part that’s making it so hard to leave.

    4. Liv*

      I was in your situation, loved my team, the work was interesting enough, I was good at it but no longer challenged, and I was given the opportunity to learn some new skills. But I was supremely bored and there were no progression opportuntieis, so I started ‘casually’ job hunting – nothing major, but if I saw something that looked really cool I’d apply.

      I’ve ended up accepting a new role at a similar organisation, but it’s a step up career and pay wise which Im really excited about.

      Some people don’t find it essential to be interested in the work, but for others if the interest isn’t there they go mad. Only you know what type of person you are. But in the mean time, it certainly can’t hurt to have a browse and see what else is out there and if anything jumps out at you.

    5. efrost*

      I’m in a really similar position at the moment. I started out liking that I didn’t care about the job because I had a lot going on in my life outside of work, but as I took on more responsibility my job started to take up more of my time and brain-space. Now I’m in a position that is engaging but not too challenging with agency and a supportive boss who is always there to help my growth… but I just don’t care about what I’m doing. The job itself is… fine, but the Company Subject Matter frankly doesn’t matter to me and because of that I’m having a hard time engaging with my growth. That was my queue. If I’m not connected to my growth, I’m probably not going to get as much out of it as I could/should.

      For what it’s worth, I’m working on an exit plan. I’m spending my energy focused on what I do like about my job, talking to as many people in my network as I can about their jobs, researching new paths, and working on getting my work set up so that when I do find the right new job I’m leaving my awesome team with an easy transition.

    6. Marketing Director*

      I think being interested in the work can go either way. Personally I am not passionate about the industry of the company I’m currently at, and I think it makes it easier for me to avoid getting too personally invested in specific projects or specific outcomes.

      But honestly, it sounds like your gut wants to explore new opportunities and your head wants to rationalize it before giving you permission. Or you’re worried that you can’t “have it all” and won’t find a workplace where the work is engaging AND the people are nice.

      My advice would be to start casually applying to things, taking interviews, and talking to people. As others have said, you’re in a good spot to be picky about your next move. You may find that talking to other companies helps you clarify what you want–it might even remind you what you like about your current role. Or who knows, maybe you will find a new position where you can have both great work and great coworkers!

  15. B*

    I’m about to leave the military and I’m struggling to figure out how to translate my skills into a civilian career. I feel like I know all about the Federal government and contracting industries, but I have no idea what civilian industries or jobs even exist. (Or how I would seek them out!) I’ve been told to network and seek out informational interviews, but I’m not sure how to do that.

    Any advice?

    1. addiez*

      A lot of large companies have veteran recruiters – look into those, they can help you figure out how your skills map.

    2. Panicked*

      Are you working with transition assistance? That’s literally what they are there for. They can help figure out what civilian careers your MOS skills would translate to. Also, check out Onward to Opportunity. They are a free program that can help you get civilian certifications in all sorts of fields. I used it to get my PHR credentialing; they paid for the test!

    3. Albeira Dawn*

      First, look into Skillbridge information. You’re probably too late to actually join the program, which allows leaving servicemembers to do an “externship” with a private company for the last few months of their service, but the advice there is pretty applicable after retirement as well. There are lots of LinkedIn groups if you just search “Skillbridge” + your area!

      Second, I like looking at industry news. What’s a recent project you would have loved to work on? For me, it was the redesign of a local children’s museum, but for you it might be a large event thrown, a comprehensive county planning process, a book published, or so on. Think as big as you want. Then I look at the companies involved: the architecture firm, the event planner, the literary agency, whatever’s applicable. Who works there? What kind of projects do they work on? What other companies do they work with? This has helped me get a general understanding of an industry that I wasn’t at all familiar with before, and helped me figure out what part of the project I was actually interested in. “I want to create 3D scans of the interior of a historic building to facilitate renovation” will give you more of a direction than “I want to participate in historic renovations.”

      Third, my mom (retired from the US Navy and the reason I know about Skillbridge) got a lot of use out of the book “The Two Hour Job Interview” in terms of giving her a guided process to follow and tweak, instead of staring at a blank page.

      1. B*

        I’m in touch with the Skillbridge people right now. I have not tried to search Skillbridge on LinkedIn though. That might be a good idea.

      2. L in DC*

        Same position as B, but I retire in two years.

        Love the advice about industry news! I’m set on going on a different career path from what I did on active duty, so this is valuable advice.

        Did your Mom get a job through her Skillbridge company? I’ve heard some people say that they were happy with their Skillbridge company but ended up getting a job elsewhere.

        1. Albeira Dawn*

          Actually, she was so frustrated by how hard it was to get her Skillbridge approved that she now works for a consultancy advocating to the DOD for streamlining transition options and working with companies to get their Skillbridge programs set up!

          1. L in DC*

            oooh. I’m not surprised that was the case TBH. I am probably going to pursue Skillbridge through a company that doesn’t have it yet, so I should probably try to lay the groundwork now :)

            Does your Mom’s consultancy group advise individual servicemembers as well on Skillbridge? Kind of like a job matching?

            1. Albeira Dawn*

              It’s not their main thing, but I think they partner with another organization called Veterati for mentorship and networking!

    4. Zephy*

      Caveat: I know basically nothing about the military.

      Is there an office or a person that can direct you to resources about transitioning back to civilian life post-military service? Is vocational rehab a thing you qualify for? I don’t know if that’s specific to veterans with disabilities or what, but I know it has something to do with military.

    5. LunaLena*

      Do you qualify for the GI Bill? If so, consider enrolling in a few classes or a degree program. Not only will you update your skills and gain networking opportunities, you’ll have more time and resources for transitioning to civilian life, like help with writing resumes (I’ve been on several hiring committees, and I can always tell when a candidate is former military because their resumes are just written differently). My former military husband just completed his own 4-year degree, and while he was taking classes he also took a public-facing student job, which helped him to transition to civilian life and become engaged with the community in general. He has now started a lucrative job that he loves and uses skills acquired from both his degree and his military background.

      If you can, find a college that is military-friendly. I live in city with a high population of military and military-related families, so the one I work at is extremely military-friendly and has many programs and services specifically for those students. And good wishes to you on your transition to civvy life!

    6. B as well.*

      Bit of a long read so I apologize up front. Retired military here. I’ve been where you are now and it can seem terrifying. First off, I’ll second what was already said, many companies have veteran/military focused recruiters that can help you as you transition out of the military. Your Transition Assistance Program or TAP (not sure what they call it today) should give you ideas and resources on translating your military skill sets into civilian ones.

      https://www.military.com/veteran-jobs/skills-translator is one such website that can help you find careers related to your skills. There are similar conversion tools at indeed.com, zip recruiter, and others I’m sure. People have different views of LinkedIn, but there are a number of veteran’s groups on the site that can offer advice/assistance.

      Something to think about…your first job out of the military is just that your first job. It doesn’t have to be the job you work in for the rest of your life. Also, don’t be afraid to branch out from what you’re doing in the military into something completely different. What I do not is completely different from what I did in the military. Networking is key. Both of my jobs during the last few years I found through networking. I just started talking to friends and acquaintances. I found people that I knew on LinkedIn and would talk with them as well. It’s a process. Hope this helps and good luck.

      1. Cthulhu's Librarian*

        to second what was said here – Your first job isn’t and (almost certainly) won’t be your last job, in the modern job market. I think a lot of veterans have a hard time connecting emotionally with that truth, because the military really is your life when you’re a part of it – understanding the civilian labor market’s mindset can be very difficult, coming from that context.

        Definitely use all the resources at your disposal – and that includes the local (civilian) workforce development authority of where you will be transitioning to civilian life. Federal WIOA programs place a premium on serving veteran populations, so the local workforce development board will have a lot of retraining programs you should qualify for, if you want to branch into something entirely unrelated from what you did in the military – and also career coaches who should be motivated to work with you about actually doing assessments of what you want to do or already have skills that are useful for (ie, diving certified military members may not think about underwater construction as a big thing for the civilian market place, but coastal states are actually cuing in to it being a hugely important part of their long term economic development policies)

    7. Anonymous Luddite*

      I’ve been there, friend. I remember talking to my command master-chief six months before my discharge (in 1995), trying to get sent to a base function that was seen as punishment. “But why?” he asked. “Because there is no civilian equivalent to anti-submarine warfare. Going to X department will teach me how to operate a forklift so I can get a job.” Suffice to say, I did not get the transfer.
      My best advice: was there something that you REALLY enjoyed while you were in? I had a collateral duty of maintaining the classified documents in our facility. My chief gave the team an assignment (the dreaded group assignment) of making a training video. Like all group projects everywhere, very few people actually did any work and I dragged it across the finish line because I enjoyed doing it. (Got a letter of commendation and everything.) Suffice to say, there is no classified data (of the same caliber) in the civilian world.
      These days? I’m a technical writer. I write instructions all day on how to build stuff so the people go home with as many fingers as what they show up with.

      Beyond that: there are a ton of veteran programs out there. You’ll find it.

      Good luck!

    8. Pickle*

      Also – consider working for the Veterans Administration. Use your TAP program to help with your resume, and set up an account on USAJobs. Veteran status gets you a leg up on government jobs.

    9. Rick T*

      Your NEC/MOS is what you do now but it isn’t the entirety of your skills and abilities.

      I’m ex-Navy Nuclear Power and a submariner but I haven’t done ANYTHING related to my NEC code since I left the service, so don’t worry about that part.

      While I was in I learned about personal responsibility, what it takes to maintain standards, and I learned how to learn and retain a LOT of technical material quickly. I use *those* skills every day at my job 30 years later.

      Focus on the military habits and skills you’ve developed that will make you a great employee: punctuality, resourcefulness, and reliability.

      Good luck, and thank you for your service.

    10. Cthulhu's Librarian*

      Informational interviews can be hit or miss – if you can target them fairly well to your interests, they can be really useful, but I see a lot of people asking for them when what they really want is a coach who will convinced them that this career is for them. Remember that the person giving you the interview doesn’t know you, and really can’t give you that sort of help (actual career coaches may be worth finding, because they can) – the best they can do for you is talk about what a typical day/week/month/year looks like in their specific company, and possibly their broader industry. Prepare your questions accordingly (please prepare at least some questions!).

      Generally, remember that if there is a thing you want to do, there is someone out there in the civilian world willing to pay for you to do it. If you’re looking for a career you will enjoy, the trick just lies in finding those people. If you’re more worried about the pay and career concerns than simply enjoying what you do, things get a bit trickier.

      If you know of a particular location you want to settle down in (even for just a few years), it can be worth pulling up the state department of labor market information (every state has to have one, but the names and where it is actually located might need a bit of sussing out – talking to local librarians, even via phone and email, can be helpful there). That data should tell you a bit about what jobs are currently in high demand, and which ones are projected to be in higher demand in the near/immediate future, which can be helpful for narrowing down the list of things you want to try doing.

    11. Cheezmouser*

      I’ll preface this by saying I know nothing about the military, but I wonder if it would help to ask yourself some of the typical questions that job seekers need to figure out at the start of their career: What type of career do you want? What fields are you interested in? What training or technical skills do you have? For example, did you support communications? Logistics? Medical? Or think about other skills/interests you pursued on the side or before joining the military. Do you like working with kids? The elderly? Are you passionate about climate change? Animals? Social justice? Are you a computer geek? Are you handy with tools? What do you like to do?

      Another question that might help you hone in on a direction: What soft skills did you gain in the military that would translate into a civilian job? For example, are you good at leading people and providing clear directions? Are you good at following directions and can execute complex tasks with precision and attention to detail? Are you good at building relationships with people from different countries or walks of life? These are all great skills to mention in a cover letter, resume, or job interview.

    12. Chauncy Gardener*

      Been there! (a VERY long time ago)
      All the above advice is great. I would just add the following:
      Please do not underestimate the value of the transition programs, use them to the fullest extent possible. Also, get a civilian (or three) to read your resume and help you to translate it (AND your LinkedIn profile) into civilian language from military language. Get rid of all the military acronyms and try to use words to explain what you did, like you’re talking to your grandmother who has no idea about the military. So for instance, if you were in Supply Chain, you’re going to want to talk about how many different parts you were buying and how much money that was worth. Were you managing a lot of assets? How did you do that?
      An informational interview is when you want to explore a particular field. You tap your network (family, friends, everyone) to find folks that work in that field and you ask them to coffee or a Zoom call to find out what the field is like. Things to ask are: How did you get into this field? What are the requirements to enter it? What’s the best way to get started in it? What’s the career path like? What’s the compensation like? What’s been your path in this field? What are the hard/easy things about it? What are the different areas/avenues in this field?
      If you have more questions, please let me know. I’m always happy to help a fellow vet!

    14. cheapeats*

      Weird to see the “no submarine jobs in the civilian workforce” comments since that’s exactly what I’ve been doing the last 20 years. Anyhow- Skillbridge and your TAP program should be able to assist you, and most defense contractors are *always* looking for subject matter experts. Though I am not a veteran myself, about half of my co-workers are and I really enjoy working with them. They’re always able to answer the questions like “how critical is this when you’re on mission” or “how can we make this better for the sailors?” Your skills are likely more valuable than you are giving yourself credit for. There are also a ton of veterans’ career fairs depending on your location, and many have gone virtual so it doesn’t matter where you are. In the DC area I could probably go to at least one a month as a hiring manager, if not more.

    16. Speaks to Dragonflies*

      Late to the party but I hope I can help. Full disclosure, I’ve never been in the military but my work partner is retired Navy. I think what you get into doing as a civilian could depend on what you did in the military. Partner was an aviation electrician and he was over a repair shop towards the end. When he got out, he started working for an aviation repair shop working on airplanes. This lead to him moving into his current job as the same thing I am, an industrial facilities maintenance technician. We come from completely different work backgrounds.. The main job you did in service may not directly translate, but some of the duties you did as part of the main duty could. We don’t do any kind of aviation work, bit the skills he learned troubleshooting and repairing aircraft translates easily to troubleshooting the processing equipment and VFDs we work on now. So if you were say, a *tank commander* maybe those basic skills would make you good for a leadership role in civilian work. I hope this helps in some way and thank you for serving.

      *I don’t know if that’s a real thing, I thought up something that sounds plausible for an example*

  16. Lizy*

    I want to reach out to my network to help with a job search, but… who is included in my network????

    More specifically…. I worked with a small professional/networking organization (20 staff) that had a large presence in the US (and Canada). I can legitimately say I’ve worked with some of the VPs and c-suite members of large and prominent companies (for example, a VP at CBRE). However, I wouldn’t be surprised that if I reached out to one of them, they may not necessarily remember my name, and I’d have to say “I did such-and-such at OldOrg” for them to put one and one together.

    On the one hand, I definitely DO think these people would be helpful to me, and at least some of them would be willing to help – the organization they were/are involved with is known for its members helping others like this. But… is this a thing that’s actually done??? I don’t want to abuse my relationship(s) with them, or imply that they should help little ol’ me just because.

    I’m not necessarily worried about what I’d say to them (by email), but more worried that I’ll seem like an idiot who doesn’t know professional norms by reaching out. I’m not entry-level by any means, but definitely not on the higher rungs of the ladder. Help!

    1. Two Chairs, One to Go*

      That’s totally normal. You’re just reconnecting with people you haven’t talked to in awhile. As you mentioned, it’s a good idea to remind them how you know each other. Good luck!

    2. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

      From my experience, reminding them of who you are, a brief summary of your accomplishments (or attaching your resume) and being direct about your ask, so they can determine if they have the resources to help (especially time), is the best way. And once you send that information, if they don’t follow up, just moving on and not hounding them.

      1. Lizy*

        If there’s a position I want to apply for, should I reach out before or after I apply, do you think? Or does it matter, necessarily?

        I submitted an app for a remote position last night, and can reach out to someone in the company, but I don’t know if it’s the same department or anything, and I don’t want to sound presumptuous.

        1. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

          Others might have different experiences, but I would do it after I applied, just so the response isn’t ‘have you applied through our talent portal’ or to make it look like you’re trying to circumvent the hiring process. Also, that way if it is in a different department, it won’t make your contact look like they’re trying to get around someone else’s internal process. And they can then be on the look out for your application.

  17. Mbarr*

    This is a brag post :)

    Back in July, I applied for a role on a different team and got it. I just found out from my manager that not only did I get an “Exceeding expectations” rating on my annual performance review, but that I got, “consistently exceeding expectations” and that I have the highest review of my team, and that it’s the highest review she’s ever given. Now she’s talking about promoting me to the next level, and creating a new job title to more accurately reflect what I’m doing. Woot woot!

    (Now, all this being said, she made a comment that made me snicker. It was something to the effect of, “As a manager, I get access to your previous reviews, and I just don’t understand how anyone could rate you lower.” Not gonna lie, I was NOT a good fit for my previous roles in the company, but at least I finally found my niche!)

    4. Mbarr*

      I don’t want to downplay my accomplishments, but part of me thinks her bar was too low for previous people who filled this role. (Granted, the role was previously filled by someone who was put on a PIP/quit, and then an intern who was hired full time). LOL. But I will admit that I HAVE done some amazingly funky things to improve efficiency.

  18. notMichelle*

    Hey folks – my company is about to return to the office and we just learned we’re not going to have assigned seats (hot desking). My gut reaction is that I hate this. I want to have my own space and I absolutely do not want to sit near sales. Am I wrong to be so against this or are there amazing benefits to this that I haven’t figured otu?

    1. addiez*

      I don’t love it either – but if you’re not in the office for all/the majority of the week, it’s hard to argue you deserve to hold an empty desk. My office does ‘neighborhoods’ so you can be nearby to those you work with, perhaps you could suggest something like that?

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      You’re not wrong to be against this. Sometimes you want to have your own stuff you keep at your own desk (e.g., ergonomic computer setup, a photo of your family, a granola bar, your preferred headphones). Having to move that stuff around and keep it with you is annoying.

      1. The Prettiest Curse*

        My office has boxes labelled with people’s names for personal stuff. It takes a bit of extra time to set up in the morning and put stuff away in the evening, but otherwise works fine. Though they did just have to give me a bigger box because I have a large ergonomic keyboard that didn’t fit in the old box.

    4. The Prettiest Curse*

      I’ve been hot desking since we returned to the office. We have 2 offices and you have to book a specific desk for whatever day you want to come in. (Currently this is only 1 day/week, but we’ll be moving to 2 days soon.)
      The good thing about this system is that it allows you to decide who you are going to sit with – but even with a hot desking system that didn’t allow that, you only have to sit there for a day, then you can move again. I don’t really miss having an assigned desk, but if this was a 5 day a week thing, I might feel differently.

      1. NotRealAnonForThis*

        I’d be hot-noping out over it.

        Those who sit near me know I carry Epi-Pens, know where I keep them, and have been shown how to use in an emergency. Our company safety manager already said hot desking cannot apply (because he’s not dealing with rewriting emergency plans due to this).

    5. Alex*

      We had hot desking at my job for a while and I haaaaated it. Specifically, I developed neck/shoulder issues from not being able to use my special annoying ergonomic personal desk setup. But also, it’s hard to deal with physical materials or collaborate when people are floating all over the building unpredictably. I was very relieved when our return to office plan specified a return to specific seat assignments.

    6. Liv*

      My company did the same thing – we’re all now hot desking. Except… they’ve assigned each team and area, and because my whole team also hates hot desking we’ve all just assigned ourselves desks.

      So you might be able to unofficially claim a desk. If not, hot desking is super annoying but the benefit is in theory that if you end up near people you can’t stand, you can… just move. Also depending on your company culture and personality type, it can give you the opportunity to be around other people and get to know other co-workers you wouldn’t normally interact with. Which can not only just be nice on a personal level, but can be great from a work level to. For example you could overhear convos about a project you’d love to be involved in and organically raise that you’re interested/could help out in X way/whatever.

      But yeah, I hate hot desking too. Also I don’t understand why so many companies are doing it, when sharing desks and having to do extra cleaning between people seems and extra risk during a pandemic…

    7. Forgot My Name Again*

      I hate hotdesking too. I can see the benefit for certain methods of working but for the majority of people it just seems to be a space-saving device. We were able to push back against hotdesking here recently due to the increased infection risk of Covid in shared spaces. If you can’t have your own desk, perhaps you can suggest that spaces are “bubbled”, so desks are only shared between specific people?

    8. Filosofickle*

      I’m not aware of anyone who actually loves hot desking! Some people don’t hate it as much as others but no one prefers it. It offers benefits for the office and business, not the employees.

      1. Generic Name*

        The people who love it are the folks at the top who get all the benefits of lower operating costs (bigger bonuses!!) but none of the drawbacks because they have private offices.

    9. notMichelle*

      wow thanks everyone! We’re all going to be in on the same days and we only have this one office so it’s not like some folks are in some days, we’re all in on all the same days. I guess I’m just going to have to be loud about my dislike for this.

      1. Cordelia*

        you’re not wrong, hot desking is grim! But, if you’re all in the office every day, does that mean there are enough desks for everyone? in which case you may well find that you all end up claiming your own desk anyway. Perhaps that will happen informally, perhaps its something you and your coworkers can agree between you? They probably don’t like the hot desking idea either, no-one does in my experience!

        1. notMichelle*

          Yup, no idea why they’re doing this. There’s enough desks for everyone. And I’m on vacation during the first week back. (I’m not doing anything, just specifically NOT working). It may end up as people just sitting in the same spot. I just really want my own space, y’know?? A place to store my snacks/ibuprofen/fav pen/notebooks/shoes.

    10. Anon-mama*

      My husband has tried, and mostly failed, at resolving the hot desk issue. He first tried to advocate for a permanent, 5-day a week desk for himself as employee retention/perk for being a superlative employee (he’s one who finds WFH really difficult, and frankly, I’d love not to have his bosses “in our home” at 8 am or 5 pm late Zoom meetings). That didn’t fly, despite the numbers evening out as to how many wanted to continue full-time remote or just 1-2 days and the very few like him who want 4-5.

      The best they can do is lockers so he doesn’t have to carry in tissues and reference files every day, and might be able to get weekly schedules for his group instead of daily. Maybe that might help.

    11. Zephy*

      If there are amazing benefits to hotdesking, I haven’t figured them out yet, either. I’m firmly in the “I want my space and don’t want other people touching it” camp.

    12. anonymous73*

      It seems like this will become the norm with people working a hybrid schedule. A company isn’t going to pay for larger spaces when only half their employees are in the office at the same time. With that said, I would hate it. I like to personalize my work space so it feels more homey, and I’m not just a robot in a personality-less cube.

    13. Xena*

      I just started at a place that technically hot desks. It’s not too bad. Folks in the same department tend to reliably sit in the same general area, if not at the exact same desk, from day to day. We also have a system that lets you check out desks ahead of time and up to two weeks in advance, and a good amount of privatized conference rooms and lounges. The only downside is not being able to keep our belongings in the desk but I’m in public audit anyways and traditionally that’s been a role where a lot of time is spent at the client so not having a permanent desk is something I was expecting already.

    14. Your Local Password Resetter*

      Most people seem to be against it.
      The only benefits I ever heard were for the company: lower costs and fitting more people into the same office space.

    15. Alternative Person*

      Hotdesking is (mostly) functional at my office because different people are in everyday (we do a lot of offsite work), so it makes sense that people only book desks on days they are in the office, but it is frustrating that there’s limited private spaces available and desk stealing is rampant. If we ever get to the point that social distancing can be safely relaxed I suspect most of the issues would disappear but until then we’re at the mercy of the cumbersome booking system.

    1. Also an academic*

      It’s fine. Higher ed generally is more open towards stuff like pronouns than the wider public, especially in librarianship/info sciences (or at least, that’s my experience; YMMV). The places that aren’t open to pronouns, you’d be weeding out spots that you (presumably) wouldn’t want to work; if you don’t want to weed those places out or are a little more desperate, that would be something to consider before including pronouns on your cv.

      I’d put them immediately after your name, like this: First Last (they/them).

    2. ANon.*

      I work in higher ed and it is becoming increasingly common for people to proactively list their pronouns. Do it!

    3. fueled by coffee*

      I think this probably has all the same caveats as pronouns on CVs in other fields. Definitely fine in public postings of your CV, unless you work for, like, Liberty University (or even somewhere like BYU tbh). In job applications, you probably just want to consider whether you want to screen for places where it would be an issue anyway. Grant applications and things like that probably take the same discretion as putting pronouns anywhere else would.

      FWIW, I’m a cis woman with a gender neutral name and am seriously considering sticking pronouns on everything I submit anywhere, because even including my feminine middle name doesn’t prevent about 25% of the emails I get going to “Mr.” LastName anyway (major motivation to finish my dissertation so I can be Dr. and done with it, I guess).

    4. Rose*

      I do it (I’m academic staff). I mean, I also have them in my work signature and plenty of people I work with (though certainly not all) do that as well. I’m pretty neutral on whether other people do it or not; I’d see it as just a personal choice.

    5. A Genuine Scientician*

      Completely fine. It’s increasingly common, and it doesn’t even take up a line on the CV, since you’d do it in parentheses after your name.

      Also, honestly: if you’re the type of person who wants to include your pronouns, would you even want to work for a person or organization that judged you poorly for including them? Might serve as a useful screening mechanism.

  20. Ciela*

    The letter about reasonable accommodations got me thinking about a round of hiring we did in 2005. We were looking for a receptionist / CSR. At that time the job was about half verbal communication with customers. We had 3 people you came in for interviews.
    One had a very pronounced stutter. He looked good on paper, but during the interview took a VERY long time to get each sentence out. Maybe he was just super nervous and stuttered less in more normal communications? He did not get an offer.
    Second person stated that she only wanted the job to get health insurance. Because she was actively trying to get pregnant, and would quit as soon as her maternity leave was over. Ideally in 12-18 months. She did not get an offer. This was not about her plans to get pregnant, it was about her plan to quit in as little as a year. If she had said that she wanted health insurance to get knee replacement surgery, and was planning to become a professional surfer as soon as she healed up, she also would not have been offered the job.
    Third person interviewed well, said all the right things. Claimed to have experience with 2 rather unusual software programs we use, and prior experience with “decorating teapots”. She was hired. Took less than a week to realize that she had completely lied about her prior experience. Her former manager ended up in fact to be her husband. She’s still here, and often claims to not know the first thing about teapots, and to not even be in the teapot business. ::SMH::
    I still wonder sometimes if the guy with the stutter would have worked out better. If he came in now, he would probably get hired, as a lot of our customer service is now done over e-mail.

    1. Odge*

      > Maybe he was just super nervous and stuttered less in more normal communications?

      This was the case for a coworker at a previous job. The roles were reversed (he was one of several interviewers) but he stuttered quite a lot while interviewing me. I then went on to work with him for 5 years, during which time I heard him stutter MAYBE once or twice. I guess it was simply that it was a higher-pressure situation with a new person.

      1. Liv*

        This. My brother has a stutter and it only really comes out when he’s super stressed or super tired. 99% of people don’t know he stutters.

        Unfortunately there’s probably no way of knowing up front whether they were a person who only stutters under stress, or if they’re a person who stutters all the time. I guess you could possibly ask, though that would risk making people uncomfortable, but maybe the way to phrase it would be:

        “I don’t mean to make you uncomfortable, but I notice you have a bit of a stutter. Is this something that tends to happen more when you’re nervous? I only ask because this role involves a lot of verbal communication with customers.”

        1. JB*

          Honestly, I’m not sure that ‘stutters all the time’ should be a disqualifier. Obviously he is able to be understood, since the issue isn’t that the interviewer had difficulty understanding his answers. So is this even an issue?

          One of the receptionists at my doctor’s office (as in the office I go to as a patient) has some sort of speech impediment. It isn’t a typical stutter, but it does take her, I’d estimate, about twice as long to say something as it would take most people. It’s never bothered me as a ‘customer’. She speaks clearly and explains everything well, so from my perspective, she’s giving me good service. It doesn’t materially make the transaction take longer. And I’ve known tons of people in sales who have conversational quirks or habits that will drive some people up the wall, or make a conversation take ten times longer than it needs to – but that’s ‘just their personality’.

          Will some customers get impatient? Probably. Some customers will find a reason to be assholes about just about anything. Back when I was head of a teller line, I had customers complain that one of my tellers had her hair cut too short for their liking. We didn’t fire her or tell her to grow it out.

          It really does seem like sometimes as soon as the label ‘disability’ gets involved, people suddenly treat something like a much, much larger inconvenience/issue than they would have otherwise.

          1. A*

            I think it depends – I was briefly a receptionist early on in my career at a business with an insanely high call volume and I had to move between calls within ten seconds or so to keep up. These weren’t calls where I was just transferring lines etc. but actually providing information – in that specific situation every second mattered, and it definitely would have put a hardship on the employer if they had to hire a second person in the role to handle overflow.

            In many industries I think it wouldn’t be an issue, but not always.

            1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

              I was thinking it might matter for something like a 911 operator or other emergency person.

              1. Pool Lounger*

                This all depends on the individual stutterer, which is why asking them about it is a good idea. Someone who stutters heavily in a job interview may rarely do it in normal day to day work. Someone who stutters in person may do it less on the phone, or vice-versa. It just depends. Stuttering has never made me take longer to make phone calls than other employees, or made it harder to do fast-paced jobs.

            2. Ciela*

              If the third candidate had not presented themselves as having a good deal of relevant experience, we likely would have hired the person with the stutter. But experience in our industry vs. no industry experience made the difference. And then we realized that she had flat out lied…

    2. Pool Lounger*

      I have a stutter. I’ve also worked in many customer-facing jobs. It’s never been an issue. Stuttering can be considered a disability. If the person seemed like a great candidate I think you made a mistake not hiring him. Feel bad for him too—stuttering makes other people uncomfortable, but it often doesn’t truly impact one’s ability to be understood. When in usual situations many stutterers develop ways to reduce it. I’ve had friends who’ve known me for decades who only know I stutter when I tell them.

    3. SnappinTerrapin*

      One of the most effective salesmen I ever worked with – from whom I learned a lot – stuttered.

      However, I also noticed that he was so familiar with, comfortable with, and sold on our product that he stuttered much less while talking about its qualities. He still stuttered during the other conversations with customers, but that didn’t prevent him from being an extremely effective sales representative.

      Honestly, I think he turned it to his advantage. He had an endearing personality, he believed in his product, and his customers seemed invested in wanting him to succeed.

  21. madge*

    How do you move from a more junior role to a senior one without mentoring or professional development at your current job? I’m starting a job search and the lack of growth opportunities is a big reason. We start and stop projects so frequently that I’m having trouble pointing to any real accomplishments for my resume and potential interviews. I’m really stuck on the next move and feel like there’s no one I can ask.

    Also, are there sites that let you search for remote opportunities and places with generous PTO (I have the latter now, and coupled with genuinely liking my team, it’s the reason I’ve stayed this long)?

    1. peachy*

      I’ve been in this situation at multiple jobs. I realized I had to look outside the org for development opportunities. For me, that meant doing a bootcamp and then deciding to get my master’s. But depending on what you want to do, maybe volunteering, getting a certificate in something, or taking on a passion project might be options. There might also be professional orgs for your industry that have mentorship programs that could pair you up with someone who could give you more specific advice for your situation.

    2. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      1. Whether you stay where you are or move on, workplace politics are likely to play a large role in who moves up in a company. If this is something you try to keep apart from, start thinking about how you can factor in the people side of your workplace on top of the performance aspect. This doesn’t mean you need to “suck up” to people or completely change your personality, just that you may need to be open to the fact that this stuff really does play a role in opportunities to upskill and move up in an organization. This is something that takes YEARS for many people to learn because if you are a straightforward/take-things-at-face-value style person, or someone very focused on measurable outcomes, it doesn’t come naturally AT ALL. You need to figure out who has the real decision making power and watch how they do it.

      2. Your peers can of more help than you may think, especially if a small group of you talk through workplace problems together. Think about a biweekly or monthly meeting (at a pub or restaurant in the before times, now maybe on zoom?) where you can say “Oh I got this weird email from the head of a different work group, does anyone know if this is how they normally are or am I misreading something?” — your other colleagues may have great answers to stuff like this once you start talking specifics.

      3. Telegraph your interest in advancement as much as possible in advance. You want people to know you’re a potential candidate long before an actual opportunity arises, so that if three people are in a room discussing X leaving, they think “Hey I wonder if Madge would be a good fit for that?” even though you don’t know the opening exists yet. Trusting that the internal posting will appear and you’ll be considered when you apply can often put you a bit behind where the internal hiring conversations are.

      4. Don’t be afraid to approach people in your personal network (family/friends) who are wildly outside your field. Some conversations only make sense to people in the same line of work, but there are lots of other career-related discussions that can be helpful. Look for people who have a similar personality to you and ask them what conversations that are outside of their comfort zone paid off at work. Talk to someone whose office is around the same size as yours to ask about interdepartmental conflicts and how to resolve them. Ask everyone questions like “what’s the one thing you wish you knew 10 years ago that you learned the hard way?” (Mine are all above)

      Good luck! Remember that you can seek this stuff out on your own and that continual development is the goal.

      1. Cheezmouser*

        +1 to all of the above, especially #1.

        Earlier in my career, I was an introvert who would happily spend the whole day in my cube churning out excellent work and talking to no one. But as you climb up, you realize that being an individual contributor, even an excellent one, will only get you so far. To advance into project or team leadership, you need to demonstrate you can work with people, and that means navigating politics, personalities, conflicting agendas, who holds influence, exerting your own influence, etc. This is a whole different skill set from what you do as an individual contributor, but it’s one that separates junior staff from senior staff. I didn’t know all this back then, but now as a senior team member, this is one way how my peers and I can tell when someone is ready to make the leap from a more junior role.

    3. Cheezmouser*

      When you say “without mentoring,” do you mean that there are no senior people willing to mentor/sponsor junior staff in your company? Or there are senior people who do mentor junior staff, but you’ve had difficulty finding someone willing to mentor you and would like to know how to build that type of relationship? (Where is your manager in all this?)

      Also, why does your team start and stop projects frequently? Does that indicate lack of clear strategy or leadership at the top? Does this affect just your team or your entire company? If it’s just your team, is there a lateral move you can make to a different team that has a track record of completing projects so you can build your list of accomplishments? If it’s your entire company, then you may need to jump ship.

  22. Overeducated*

    Is anyone else’s head still exploding two days later over the 2 jobs post? I keep going back and reading more comments.

    I just…can’t imagine. I can’t imagine making that kind of money with that little accountability. Working in a sector where there is always more to do than our funding enables us to get done, where there’s always a multi-year “wish list,” the idea that someone could just be “done” in a high-level, strategic job at 25 hours a week absolutely blows my mind. A “job” is not always a fixed quantity of tasks, part of a higher level salaried job is generally to figure out how to use your work time most effectively, and only planning to use 60% of it seems like literally wasting someone else’s money on purpose. I don’t buy that “other jobs expect overtime without extra pay” argument this because it’s not one-to-one, it’s new companies, so this is not a creative way to get “back pay” from a specific employer who mistreated you that way.

    I will admit that part of it is also resentment that apparently you can make multiples of my salary by just doing slightly over half the work, though. How do I get on that gravy train?

    1. Cat Tree*

      I didn’t read many comments but I’ve been thinking about it. And I think I can make more money long term by doing one job well, rather than half-assing two jobs. So for me, it’s worth investing my effort into just my current job. The effort of constant deception is also a lot of work, so it’s more l like doing 2.5 jobs.

      But honestly, I also cringe at the thought of intentionally doing a mediocre job, which has really made me start thinking about why I feel that way. I haven’t landed on a conclusion yet.

      1. Education-ish*

        I can’t stop thinking about it either. I am a member of a high- responsibility, lower paying profession. On an FB group for members of this profession who want to change careers, there are often posts from people who want to get into tech but can’t get past the gatekeepers. I can’t help but think that with some training in tech they would be great workers: hardworking, conscientious, independent, taking initiative to solve problems and help people: qualities that the LW doesn’t seem to exhibit, based upon her choices. Her taking up 2 high- level tech jobs maybe doesn’t directly impact these people, but if others make the same choices that she does it could certainly impact those looking to enter the field, by making it harder for those a level below her to get to her level, which could trickle down to entry- level positions.
        It also amazes me that some think she is an anti capitalist hero by shortchanging(most likely) 2 jobs to earn $400,000? When people such as stay at home moms or part-time working parents who choose to get by on less income, are often just assumed by some in society to be privileged, resented for being lucky, or even called “spoiled stay at home moms”, no matter what their household income (usually much less than this person), family circumstances, special needs of their children, etc.
        Also, if she thinks she can pull this off, she probably has an inflated view of her abilities. And by the way, what does “dotted-line report” mean?

        1. Hlao-roo*

          RE: dotted-line report

          I was in a situation once where I had a manager and a “dotted-line” manager. So Beth was my manager-manager, who had hire/fire authority, determined raises, and gave me the bulk of my assignments. I also “dotted-line” reported to Carol. Carol didn’t have hire/fire authority, but she gave me about 20% of my assignments. During end-of-year reviews, I had conversations with both Beth and Carol. I think Beth asked Carol for input when determining raises but I can’t be sure.

          The specifics of a dotted-line manager/report relationship may be different at that LW’s company, but in general I would assume that the LW is sort of a secondary manager who assigns some work to their dotted-line report.

          1. A*

            That’s how it is at my employer. In my last role I had several dotted line reports because their work output all flowed through and was managed by me, but their department manager was the one with hiring/firing abilities and would have final say on performance ratings as it relates to their subject matter expertise (with my input on the productivity side). It took a while to get used to and I initially rolled my eyes at it, but it made sense in the long run.

            1. Education-ish*

              So the letter writer is at least partially in charge of giving lower-ranked, presumably lower-paid, people tasks to do for their jobs, at 2 different jobs where she is highly paid and only doing enough tasks herself to amount to 25 hours each job. Yucky.

          2. tamarack & fireweed*

            Yes, this.

            In extreme cases for example there may be a functional manager who manages, say, all system administrators, or all professional services staff, but each of them is semi-permanently assigned to a project team (backend infrastructure maintenance, datacenter deployment, networking… , or big client X) and there are managers that oversee these cross-functional teams, and you dotted-line report to them. So the functional manager would sign raises or be responsible for putting you forward for promotion, but the dotted-line manager would give highly relevant input on this.

            In some cases the dotted-line manager knows more about your work and performance than your straight-line manager. In other cases, the dotted-line is just a secondary function (such as, you are part of some strategic team attached to the CTO’s office for 20% of your work effort, but oversee some operational engineering function as per your job title for the other 80%).

            (The metaphor is that the relationship would be indicated with a dotted line on an org chart – you aren’t formally reporting to them but there is a secondary relationship.)

            BTW, the two-jobs letter was one that I knew would annoy me if I delved in deeper, so I just skimmed Alison’s response and completely skipped the comments.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I’m with you. I didn’t comment on that post, but I did read a lot of the different perspectives people offered. Ultimately, I think it’s incredibly unethical and will not work out in the long run, especially with the expected travel. The only way this would be acceptable in my mind is if both companies knew and agreed to the situation, and were fully aware that they were paying a much higher by-hour rate to this employee/getting substantially less time and attention from this employee than any other of their employees in a similar role. As it stands, neither employer is getting what they think they’re paying for, even if they don’t realize it, which makes it a bait and switch by the employee in my mind. Each company thinks they’re getting approx 40 hours of quality high level strategic thinking, and in reality they’re maybe getting 25 hours of whatever it takes to meet the minimum expectations (it may be that the employee is a rock star in both jobs, but how much better would they do if they focused on just one?).

      If the employee had to account for the hours, it certainly would show how this isn’t right. (I saw that the OP said she would in fact be honest about hours worked in a reply to the original post, but if she doesn’t have to be …) Similarly, if the employee had to disclose any outside source of income to either company, it would be clear what they’re doing. The companies may not have specific conflicts of interest in the subject matter, but they do in the employee’s time and effort.

    3. Anonymous Koala*

      I think we need to remember that OP has only been doing this successfully for a month. Director positions have a LOT of accountability. Staying accountable to two companies for strategic planning is a lot of work, and I doubt OP will be able to continue working two jobs at 25 hours/week each long-term without work product suffering. But if you do manage this, OP, please write a self-help book – I would love to be that efficient.

      1. Bernice Clifton*

        This is where I landed as well. As my dad always quotes, “You can fool some of the people all the time and you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can’t fool all the people all the time.”

      2. Malarkey01*

        This where I landed too. At that level the work is never “done” in that you should be coming up with new initiatives and new projects when other projects slow and advancing the company because you are leadership. Sure you may have a week between things when you aren’t putting in a full week or a slow month. But, at $200k you are not engaged to wait or in a job where they’d be cool saying oh you get so e on 50% of the time? Enjoy your weekend.

        This will catch up when they get to month 4 and they’re suppose to be up to speed and they ask what work/ideas they’ve generated.

    4. intl devt worker*

      I’m in the non-profit sector so your general sentiment of “how they hell do they have that much spare cash lying around to do a job that is apparently only half-a-job?” resonates.

      Is it unethical? Frankly, I don’t know- because if OP was an entry level employee working for a pittance, I’d have more of a “screw them, take it if you can get it” attitude. The amount of money OP was getting paid changes my own personal emotional reaction (read: I feel incredibly resentful of OP), but I’m still not sure if it changes the ethics of the question. I can only imagine how furious lower-level employee’s in both of OP’s companies would be if they discovered what OP was doing.

      1. A Girl Named Fred*

        I have to admit that that’s pretty much the reaction I also had. When first reading the question, I assumed both jobs were maybe somewhere in the 30-50k range, and I was thinking, “I mean, I don’t LIKE it but I understand the societal shortcomings that have led to you pursuing this.” Then I got to the “both are director-level at around 200k each” part and went, “… I’m not sure that ‘should’ change my evaluation of the situation, but it absolutely does.”

        All of my jobs have been positions where I got all of my work done in less than 40 hours a week, anywhere from 25-35 hours, and I admit I let some of that extra time just be slacking off (there’s only so much paper shredding one can do before they lose their mind.) But none of those jobs were at the director level where I’d actually have power to support a team by removing barriers, or work on making strategic decisions, or otherwise affect changes.

        1. Overeducated*

          Right – I sort of feel like with the higher position comes more responsibility. It’s not just the pay, it’s the level of the job and that you’re not just being assigned grunt work, you’re choosing not to commit.

        2. intl devt worker*

          I had the exact same thought process while reading the original post!

          I definitely don’t do a perfect 40 hours of work a week (we’re only human), but I step up when needed. If I was a lower level employee at one of OP’s companies and found out that a senior executive was being paid a full-time salary for 25 hours of work a week, I would be enraged. It wouldn’t matter to me that the OP was meeting all the deliverables set by their own manager- my question would be “why the hell is someone getting paid $200k when your expectations for them are so minimal and unambitious.”

          1. Sleeping Late Every Day*

            Exactly this. The director of the institution I worked at was paid an obscenely high salary, and included in his contract was several weeks of paid time off each year, separate from his vacation time, to write a book NOT published by us, and for which he’d receive separate compensation from the publisher/purchasers. We resented the hell out of him because it felt like double-dipping on top of said obscene salary, while he did diddly-squat for our place during that time.

        3. Pam Adams*

          I also feel it’s selfish- if this jerk hadn’t grabbed the second job, someone else would have a job and benefits.

      2. Llama Llama*

        oof yeah. I also work at a non-profit where I could easily work 50 hours a week on my one job, still not get everything done, and only make 48k a year. Honestly I want to know how I can get a job that seems to only require 25hrs/wk that will pay me 200k. If I could make 200k a year I don’t think I would feel like I needed two jobs. That seems obscene to me.

        1. intl devt worker*

          Yeah, I completely share this sentiment. Making $400k/year to give minimum effort to two jobs just doesn’t align with my personal values for two reasons: 1) who needs that much money; and 2) I hate the idea of doing the bare minimum (although maybe I’m just brainwashed by working in non-profits for 10+ years).

          But, not aligning with my personal values doesn’t = unethical. And if I would be fine with it for a lower wage employee…? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

        2. Pescadero*

          “Honestly I want to know how I can get a job that seems to only require 25hrs/wk that will pay me 200k.”

          Acquire a highly in demand (usually technical or financial) skill, and have high level experience with it.

        3. Ampersand*

          This letter seemed to reinforce the idea that the higher up you go, the less work you have to do. Clearly if you can hold two jobs at the same time, unnoticed, at the director level, something is not quite right.

          OP’s letter definitely rubbed me the wrong way. I thought at first it was that I’m jealous—but the truth is, I don’t WANT two jobs at the same time. Even if I were making 400k! It’s the deception that bothers me. I think most people are bothered by deception and lying—and when someone flat out states they’re willingly withholding information like this, information that would likely cost them both their jobs, it’s hard (for me) to think highly of that person. It points to a lack of integrity.

          It’s true that companies have treated employees badly for much too long (so sure, maybe they deserve this), and it’s also true that lying by omission is not a good look.

      3. Moths*

        Whether it’s a reasonable thing or not, I feel like in lower pay positions, it’s often expected/assumed that you might be working a second job in your extra time. I feel this is the most true for hourly positions, where your time off the clock is truly yours, but even at lower paid salaried positions, I think it’s very normal for people to be working some sort of second job. Once you start rising in pay/position, I feel like the general expectation is that you’re being paid well enough to focus your time and effort on that one sole position.

        I can’t say for sure why the post made me a bit uncomfortable as well — maybe it’s preconceived assumptions that I should work on changing. But one thing I can put my finger on is that most exempt salaried positions have the salary set by the assumption that you’ll be focusing on the job for about 40 hours each week. They know some weeks may be more and some may be less. I don’t know that I’d go so far as to call it wage theft, but I definitely feel like there were knowing false pretenses entered into — knowing that the company was hiring you with the assumption you’ll work 40 hours, but you joining knowing you’re not going to.

    5. Persephone*

      I don’t have anything to add, just that I 100% agree with your post and thought that OP was being incredibly selfish.

    6. Syl*

      It bothered me a lot too. I do cancer research and get paid a little over minimum wage with a Masters degree. I have two other part-time jobs so I can afford food and to go home and see my family occasionally.

      It saddens me that our society is constructed in such a way where this guy can make so much with just *one* job, is able to get two such jobs, and I’m struggling to afford new socks.

    7. anonymous73*

      Ethics aside, it pissed me off. It’s one thing to have 2 jobs at a lower level, but 2 DIRECTOR positions??? Honestly though, I doubt it will last and they’ll probably end up with no jobs. As a director there are expectations, and you can’t phone it in for long before you get caught.

    8. Hiring Mgr*

      I was more confused about the “Fire her immediately” response to yesterday’s researcher letter compared to the “Well the ethics are fascinating, maybe it can work” attitude with the DDD (double dipping director)

      1. Neptune*

        Me too. It shocked me that both Alison and many commenters clearly can comprehend that a person who constantly lies cannot be trusted and will probably have to be fired – but when the person doing it is very rich and manages to market their dishonesty as some kind of blow against the Man, then it’s a whole other story.

        This person is undoubtedly either passing off her work onto others or simply not doing it, something that will cause big headaches for whoever has to clean up the mess after she is inevitable caught and fired. She is occupying two jobs with the intention of doing a mediocre job of both, when one or both jobs could have gone to someone who actually might have done a good job of them. She is in a position of authority and access at two different companies and clearly has no problem with dishonesty if she can profit from it. But hey, maybe it can work.

    9. STG*

      I fought with this one internally. Ultimately, if he’s completing the work to a level that it’s still successful for the business and still providing the service that he agreed to offer enough so that his employer is good with it, he’s doing his job. Particularly as a salaried employee, I’m not getting stuck on the number of hours he’s actually spending doing his job if the company is pleased with his output.

      Now, I question whether he will be sufficiently doing his job eventually but that’s for his business to decide. You are either successfully providing the work for your company or you aren’t.

      I think that the ethical question is a bit murkier but personally, I don’t see a big difference between doing this for 50k vs doing this for 200k either. Seems like if one is unethical, the same logic applies to the second. An action that is more understandable because of pay doesn’t exactly change the ethical implications. I know I’m in the minority on that opinion though based on all of the comments.

    10. New office girl*

      Same! I have thought about it a lot. One on hand lower paid people do 2 jobs all of the time. Also employers are rarely ones to advocate against their own interests and the employees should be able to do it right back. BUT I can’t see how they won’t get caught.

      Yet, I have friends who are faculty at community college and work full time for a private institution and full time for a public institution at the same time. They used to teach extra classes at the one job for extra money. Now they teach the same amount of classes for 2 different places for double the money. Can’t fault their planning

    11. Monty & Millie's Mom*

      Yeah, I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about it and going back to read more comments. I’d commented on it at the time, basically that it makes me sad that someone has this “problem” while others have to struggle just to make it. It’s privilege – and I find that no one really likes to hear they’re privileged! But realistically, someone who gets into an Ivy League school b/c they had wealthy parents who put them through a feeder high school and/or had the connections isn’t BETTER than someone who was raised without that privilege, but that other person is definitely not going to have the experiences and connections to have the opportunity to worry about whether or not it’s ethical to work 2 “full-time” jobs that pay $200k+ each. I guess it’s the privilege and cluelessness about it all that’s somewhat infuriating and makes me so sad and disheartened. That, and the discussion in the original comments about how “it’s not unethical b/c corporations/capitalism is unethical, so this is just payback” when – that’s not what ethics is about. So. Anyway, yes, my head is still exploding! As a theoretical, it’s interesting, but when I really stop to think that THIS IS SOMETHING THAT IS HAPPENING while many, MANY other people struggle to make ends meet is also a thing that is happening, it just makes me sad. (That was a terrible sentence, but I said what I said!) Those with the power to do something about it and effect real change are just moping about, getting paid double salaries for half the work and angst-ing about it.

    12. Sunflower*

      I agree that I kept thinking ‘how do I get on this?!’

      I think it’s irrelevant what we think because while I agree with Alison that I’m definitely pondering how I feel about it, if you’re the one employing him, you aren’t going to think it’s OK. I think it’s irrelevant if he’s getting the work done or not. If he is getting it done then that’s a red flag to the organization that his job can most likely be combined with another or they can slash his hours and income in half. No company is going to keep going along with this unless the OP has some super niche skillset- and even then, they would probably just add another job to his.

      I also think doing this is probably one of the worst marks to have on your employment record and I’m not sure if you could come back from it. OP is saying one thing but I guarantee you very few employers are going to believe you can do 2 full time jobs to the best of your ability at the same time (whether that’s truth or not doesn’t matter. A lot of people would probably rather live in denial than believe they created that high of a level job that only requires 25 hours of work a week). I also don’t think the OP can keep this up for more than a few more months and I don’t think permanently besmirching your employment record for an extra 10-20k at most is worth it.

      1. Fed Up*

        I was once promoted and told, directly to my face, by the CEO himself during the official meeting that I was signing up for 3 roles (the one I was doing now, plus management of the team–which was somehow 2 distinct roles). All of which I already knew and was ok with. What was not ok, and was a big part of the reason I left was that this promotion did not, and would not, come with a raise because “we don’t give raises outside of your date of hire anniversary”, which would mean I would be doing 3 jobs for the price of 1 for the next 6 months and then any raise I did receive would only be based on the salary of the lower level job.

      2. Flower necklace*

        Same. I have a 6th section (extra class), help with department chair responsibilities, and do tutoring after school. I get paid extra, but all that still adds up to less than 100K.

    14. Anony*

      There’s kind of an immediate reaction of “This is so unfair since I work way over 40 hours a week and make a fraction of what OP does,” but after that, it mostly made me think about my management practices in a remote/semi-remote environment and the balance between being overbearing or micromanaging and just not following up enough with remote employees. On the companies’ sides, it’s a management problem. She is essentially not being assigned enough work/responsibility/projects, if she’s able to do this. How is it possible that this person’s managers (plural) are not aware that she is only dedicating 50% of her time to work? I think after more time passes it will come to light – especially if she’s asking to travel at the same time for both companies!

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I both agree and disagree with you. Please, hear me out.

        First, OP was one month in, so she was just getting settled (I’m side-eyeing her assertion that the ramp up stage is more involved than the actual work, but that may reflect the type of worker she is, which lines up with my nect point).

        As I have moved up in seniority at my job, my responsibilities have grown. Not just in the sense of having more and deeper deliverable, but in that I’m supposed to find and invent *my own* ways to add value to the company. There’s a shift away from “Manager said to do X, Y, and Z” to “Hm, I think if I do A, B, and C, that will have these benefits. Let me run that by my manager.”

        At the director level, I expect the work is 80% the latter type of work, with more freedom to execute without checking with a manager. And that’s what I mean about side-eyeing the OP; the fact that she found the on-boarding phase harder makes me think she sees it as a shift from “I have these hard deadlines” to “well, now I guess I just have to do these few things and the rest of my time is free.” When, in fact, the rest of her time should be generating original ideas and products. A good manager wouldn’t be checking in super frequently at that level, since it would be expected a director can…direct themself.

    15. cactus lady*

      I don’t know, I still don’t think it’s ethically wrong. Can that letter writer do it well, or even long term? I don’t know, I don’t think we have enough information. I think we just aren’t used to considering someone having two high-level jobs because traditionally those require being in the office or having direct reports. We also don’t think of people making $200k as wanting for money so why would they have a second job? But no one ever said the rules of capitalism only applied to large organizations that have been exploiting workers for years.

      I think back to 2008 when jobs were getting cut and responsibilities were being piled onto the people who were left, who were told to “do more with less”. I feel like this is now companies being asked to do more with less. I recall the job I had back then making it very clear that we could easily be fired and replaced so we shouldn’t complain about how our low wages meant we were barely making ends meet, “keeping your job is the new raise”, etc. I wouldn’t necessarily make the same choice as the letter writer, but I do think they are playing the game of capitalism in a way workers haven’t been empowered to. I don’t feel like it’s unethical at all if it’s executed well. I just think it would be difficult to actually execute it well, especially long-term.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I’ve been thinking about that letter a lot and what made it unethical to me was that OP pushed work down to lower level workers to make it work (the opposite of finding ways to ease their workload or at least add value to it). I’d be curious if that part changes your perspective on the situation.

    16. Samantha F*

      I can’t get over Alison saying she would not condemn this as much as before. I’ve been an avid AAM readers for over 5 years and it was the first time I seriously considered stopping. But of course I couldn’t, I love the posts in general. But to me this issue was so glaringly unethical that it makes me really sad that there are people I otherwise respect who think this is in anyway ok.

      1. pancakes*

        She didn’t say it’s ethically ok – she said aspects of it “could be a huge ethical issue,” and that the deception is “a big deal,” and that she doesn’t condone it.

      2. bluephone*

        Comment twins! That OP is not “sticking it to the man” or whatever their BS justification is. They ARE “the man.” Even a Victorian-era robber baron would be like, “that’s too far, dude/female dude.”

    17. Chaordic One*

      Well, honestly, um, no.

      I guess I’m becoming terribly cynical and jaded, but no, it sounds like something someone would try to do and might get away with. At least for a while. It probably wouldn’t end well, but it still seems like something someone would try.

      1. Monty & Millie's Mom*

        Oh yeah, I’m definitely not SURPRISED! It took up a lot of space in my head for a few days, though, because it just seemed to me such a big, glaring problem, showing just how disparate “work” and incomes are. Like, the people I know are more likely to be hustling and working extra jobs to stay afloat while this chick is just angsting away because she’s getting paid a crap-ton of money for – apparently not much? It’s just something that doesn’t surprise me, but I can barely even connect with – that’s not at all my experience, and while I know, intellectually, that there are people/jobs/salaries out there like this, it’s just not my reality. The divide is just too vast to make it meaningful for me!

    18. Deanna Troi*

      The part about it that bothered me the most is that in the comments she said she felt like it was okay to treat her employer poorly because she had been treated poorly by other employers. This is after she said how great, understanding, and flexible her managers are at both current places. So, essentially she is punishing these good managers for what other bad ones have done. Additionally, by saying that, she was admitting that she knew what she was doing was wrong.

  23. Vampirina Ballerina*

    How do you function without leadership? Our director positions has been vacant for several months (not unexpected, tough position to fill), one of our two ADs also just left, and the one left is not super reliable and also super swamped now. The departing colleagues took a lot of expertise and institutional knowledge with them. I’m not a manager, but one of a few people that my colleagues will come to with questions and I’m struggling with a lot of anxiety about basically working without any leadership.

    1. Admin 4 life*

      Have you thought about applying for a management position? Or also connecting with another manager to get information on timelines? I would go up the chain of command until I reach a filled position and let them know your team needs some guidance. Also reach out to HR about hiring to see if they have a timeline for backfilling those roles.

    2. Overeducated*

      This happened to my organization from the top down a few years ago. The overall strategy was to keep plugging away to maintain the status quo and avoid making any major changes if at all possible until new leadership came in.

    3. Grace Less*

      My company is adopting an ostrich approach. It’s like we never had a leader and the tasks she did don’t exist anymore. Supervisors are puzzled why we are frustrated. Many, many people implementing exit strategies.

  25. Amber Rose*

    We hired a new person (Sally) and she reports to me. I’m basically trying to teach her to do the most time consuming part of my job so I can focus on other things. It’s not complex work exactly but there’s a lot of details and it requires a certain level of investigative thinking.

    She’s interested, but slow. Complicating matters is that the day we hired her, her husband was diagnosed with cancer, and she already needs to be out of the office a lot for appointments for him and is obviously pretty distracted. I’m trying to be reasonable but we do have to get work done which means I need her to remember the work that’s coming in and make sure it’s getting done.

    I’m going on vacation in two weeks and I’m worried about it. Is there anything I could do to help her out while I’m gone, do you think?

    1. ecnaseener*

      Can you write up instructions/guidance for her to follow? (Or if it already exists, tell her to read through it now and ask you any questions she has before your vacation.) For the investigative thinking parts, you won’t be able to give specific instructions but any guidance like lists of factors to consider would be helpful. And is there someone she can go to for questions while you’re gone?

    2. MissBaudelaire*

      Could you help her set up a calendar with the due dates of different projects she’s responsible for? Is that possible?

      1. Amber Rose*

        It’s not projects. It’s just that work gets emailed in and needs to be dealt with as it arrives.

        1. Reba*

          It sounds like a checklist could help, or something like a flow chart that will help her with the investigative thinking part. Sorry if this is an obvious suggestion!

          For tracking work, if there is a simple, ideally visual way to keep the projects in front of her so they don’t get forgotten, that could help a distracted person a lot (ask me how I know…) A white board or bulletin board, some kind of tracking chart?

        2. JB*

          So where is she falling short?
          1. Opening the email and then forgetting to complete the task? – help her change her email settings so that she had to manually mark an email as ‘read’. Tell her she only marks an email as ‘read’ once the task is complete.
          2. Completing the tasks, but she keeps coming to you and basically asking to be walked through it? – you need to get her confidence level up ASAP before you go on vacation. Next time she comes to you, ask her to do her best to complete the task on her own, then bring it to you for review if she’s not sure. If she hasn’t had this kind of work before (esp. the investigative part) she probably doesn’t feel confident in her skills yet.
          3. Completing the work, but just too slowly? – unfortunately this might just take time…but have a frank conversation with her about what tasks are taking her too long to complete, and what the turnaround timeframe is meant to be. Ask her if there’s something in particular she’s getting hung up on. It may be that she could benefit from a ‘cheat sheet’ for some particular kinds of tasks, or there’s a system she’s struggling with, or she may just not know she’s supposed to prioritize tasks in a certain way.

    3. Anonymous Koala*

      Do you use Trello or any other sort of workflow management software? I’m a visual person, and clear workflows with lists of tasks to complete really help me stay on track.

  26. MissGirl*

    Question on my resume, which is growing too long. I know the standard rule is to go back ten years. Here’s the problem:

    Job 1 (book publishing, 2005 – to 2015)
    Quit and took two years off to get masters and completely change careers to tech.
    Did two internships during those two years
    Job 2 (2017 – 2019)
    Job 3 (2019 – current)

    The thing that makes the most sense to me is to take off my internships but that leaves a two-year gap. I took off my school years because I’m competing at the level of coworkers ten years younger than me and I’m uncomfortable about that (which, maybe I shouldn’t be). If I take off the unrelated job, I lose some specific experience and only have six years of overall job history.

    1. londonedit*

      If you’re applying to jobs that are only to do with your current career, I’d be tempted to take the publishing off altogether and give more space and focus to the relevant positions. Then in your cover letter you can say ‘After 10 successful years in the book publishing industry, in 2015 I took the decision to retrain with a Masters in Llama Grooming and have since built a fulfilling career during which I have gained promotion to Lead Groomer’ etc etc.

        1. londonedit*

          You could always put an introductory line/paragraph on your CV – not one of those gimmicky ‘mission statement’ things but just something concise that explains your background.

        2. Hlao-roo*

          If cover letters aren’t a thing, you can break your work experience into two sections:
          “Relevant Experience” with Job 3/Job 2/internships and “Other Experience” with just the job title/company name/dates line for Job 1. That way you show you’ve been in the working world since 2005, but you aren’t taking up space with all the Job 1 bullet points.

          Or, because I see there’s some specific experience from Job 1 you want to keep, can you cull Job 1 down to the one or two most important bullet points? And maybe just one bullet point for each internship? That might get you down to the length you’re looking for.

        3. peachy*

          Is there a rule about including one even if it’s not standard? Seems to me like it couldn’t hurt to include one anyway. At worst, it just doesn’t get read. At best, it helps you stand out from the crowd. (I just applied to a tech job, didn’t know if I was supposed to include a cover letter or not, included one anyway, and ended up getting an offer, FWIW.)

    2. Meghan*

      Why keep the book publishing gig on if you’re in tech now? And if you are concerned about the gap on your resume, you can explain it easily! I wouldn’t worry about that.

      1. MissGirl*

        I worked in graphic design in publishing, which is tangibly related to the current work I do (data visualizations).

    3. Two Chairs, One to Go*

      For sure leave the internships on since that’s your relevant experience! Since you’re in tech, it’s also appropriate to include a projects section. That is another way to demonstrate your skills before you have a lot of work experience (in-field).

    4. Parcae*

      I would do my best to include all three jobs and both internships. You could reasonably take a different approach, but I think that’s simplest. You can save space by being very brief when describing Job 1 and the internships. Depending on the specific experience you got in Job 1, you might be able to skip describing accomplishments and duties altogether– just put the employer, job title, and dates. That gets across the idea that you have those ten years experience without wasting space on an unrelated job.

      1. Anonymous Koala*

        I second this. I would limit your publishing accomplishments to only those bullet points that directly help you with your current job, and focus the rest of your space on your most recent positions.

      2. MissGirl*

        It feels strange to sum up ten years of work in a few bullet points, but I think this might be the best way to go. A few more years and I’ll feel comfortable leaving it off all together.

        1. Parcae*

          It might feel strange to you, but for readers it will emphasize that you had a major career change. If you won’t have a cover letter to help you contextualize things, I think it’s even more important for your resume to tell the story of your career.

        2. Hillary*

          My work history is fairly similar to yours – everything that happened pre-grad school is down to six lines. Current role gest up to 5 bullet points, last one gets 3-4, before that 2-3, and before that 2 short (one line) bullets if it makes the cut at all for relevance.

          Of course two interview cycles ago someone got to the bottom of my resume and asked what I’d done before that. Umm, I was in college? Strange interview but I got the job and liked working for him.

        3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          It’s totally valid it feels weird to pare down ten years to a small list. Would it help to think of it as adding a filter on the data you’re providing?

          You’re not deleting data (shock! horror!), you’re providing a curated data set of your experience.

          Signed,
          A fellow data geek

    5. JB*

      I’d leave the internships on there but in a truncated fashion. Don’t spend too much space on them. There’s a few ways you can handle that:
      1. Literally just list the title and dates for each – like the ‘header’ of the position without any ‘content’.
      2. If you did roughly the same work at both internships, combine them under one heading with one or two lines of duties/accomplishments beneath them.
      3. Just make a note in that space along the lines of ‘2015-2017: completed internships with (company name) and (company name)’.

      It should be obvious to anyone looking why you aren’t providing much info, and it will remove the appearance of a two-year resume gap.

    6. anonymous73*

      Gaps are easily explained. I have 3 on mine because I’ve been laid off three times. If something is irrelevant to the job you’re applying to, you can leave it off. But if it shows how you’ve grown and is relevant for the position, leave it on regardless of how long it’s been. I have all of my jobs on my resume from my professional career (25+ years). But the details are clear and concise and my resume is only 2 pages. I’m not a fan of the 10 year rule – I feel like the context of your resume is more important.

    7. Pocket Mouse*

      What length is too long? Seems like 5 positions can fit on 2 pages with no problem, it’s just a matter of keeping to the most relevant info and presenting it concisely. Possibly same for 1 page but more brutal editing is needed- like maybe your 10-year job can be summarized in three bullet points.

    8. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Good instinct to leave off the date that you obtained your undergrad degree. Ageism is for real, and the reader will be looking for the presence of the degree, not the date.

      Unless you have a lot of experience or accomplishments outside your jobs and internships — like leadership in volunteer organizations or community involvement — I think you can condense 5 positions into 1 page. Do you have a lot of details under Job 1? Can you trim that down to, say, 2 accomplishments with 1 line each? Can you trim out all the details under Job 1? (And keep the details on your LinkedIn profile, or at least stored in older copies of your resume.)

      Or: Just embrace the 2-page resume. If you’ve been working since 2005, it’s not unreasonable to have a 2-page resume. Mine goes back to the late 1990s because I’m a second-career lawyer and like to explain what I did before going to law school, and the late 1990s job shows a connection to the areas of law that I like to practice. If your resume is very short on the second page, consider adding a small “Profile” block on the front (like the “About” block on a LinkedIn profile).

  27. WomEngineer*

    How do you get to know people at work when everyone is at home?

    I started a new job, and everyone is remote until the pandemic improves. While I’m fine with working this way, others have said I’m missing the experience of casually meeting people.

    My goal is to learn about others’ career paths and feel more engaged (even if we’re not working the same projects). So far, I’ve signed up for mentoring and a couple employee groups. I also thought about having a few short coffee chats. Does anyone have suggestions for other strategies?

    1. ThatGirl*

      I started my current job remotely, and the first few weeks had a lot of getting-to-know-people chats. It was a little overwhelming, but also helpful for putting names and faces together. Depending on your company culture, you could suggest some short “coffee break” chats for your team where you all talk a little more casually, or just keep doing it one on one. Be a little more gregarious than you might normally be, too — ask people questions, chat about your weekend/pets/family/hobbies as you feel comfortable. It will come with time.

      1. Reba*

        Yes, schedule the one-on-one, or small group coffee chats! It might feel less natural than pre- and post-meeting in-person chit-chat, but people understand that you need to get to know them/their work somehow.

    2. ecnaseener*

      Log onto meetings a few minutes early – if anyone else is also there early, it’s a good time to chat. (Just like IRL meetings I suppose!)

    3. Stealth on this one*

      My team is mostly virtual. WE have 8 sites, 2 people at a site. We recently started a FriYAY activity. We each take turns on our week to ask a question in our slack channel. Its team led… and we started it a few weeks ago. Our team tripled in size over the past 9 months and its just fun. Today the question was what is the one food you could eat for the rest of your life. Last week it was what horror movie would you survive and why? It doesn’t take a long time, we all answer at our convenience and it sparks a lot of conversation. Plus its easy.

    4. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I’m starting a new job Monday so I’m interested to hear about this as well. The one good thing is that I know the boss – I worked for her at a previous job – and she and I have very similar approaches to work.

  28. Stapler!*

    Hive mind, have you any advice on how to balance feeling super frustrated with my workplace and feelings that I want a change, yet rationally knowing that I have a great salary with benefits and respect from co-workers and can enjoy “coasting” for a bit if I want? I feel kind of tempted to apply for other jobs, but none of them look to be better compensated that my current role. Plus, in my field (academia) the norms require me to loop in my current manager that I’m looking. Financially/rationally/for maximum work-life balance I think it makes sense to stay, but emotionally I’m at BEC stage with management’s ineptness and kind of want to try something new after 8+ years at the same place. I guess I’m torn between the known stress of staying, and the unknown stresses that would come with starting out as the new person having to prove myself all over again at a new university.

    1. ecnaseener*

      I can’t take credit for this advice, I read it on here I think, but going into “anthropologist mode” or “sitcom mode” might help? Thinking about your manager (and anyone else frustrating) as a case study in weird human behavior — how DO they manage to mess the simplest things up? fascinating! — might help you emotionally detach and be less personally frustrated.

      1. Stapler!*

        I have to keep practicing this…thanks for the reminder! I do have an email to myself that I set to snooze and pop up before meetings etc. to remind me to slow my roll and try to resist piping up if I’m feeling mad about something.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      Can you develop a new project or other proposal to implement that will give you something new/interesting to do? I started a new initiative when I was where you are.

      Agree with ecnaseener that the anthropologist exercise has been helpful in the past.

    3. Anonomonopolis*

      Same situation, but I’ve only been in my role for about a year. I applied and interviewed for some things that looked interesting (and will continue to do so after the holidays) but I’m allowing myself to be REALLY picky because I know that while my job is boring, my boss doesn’t trust me to do anything, and management is generally SO INEPT that it brings me to tears sometimes…my job isn’t hard, I can get my work done in very few hours, I get paid well, my benefits are great, there’s a ton of flexibility (including WFH). So for the short-term I focus on what I can control, enjoy my hobbies and life outside work (and put my energy into this) and wait for something amazing to come along!

    4. Cheezmouser*

      Is there anything you can do to change anything in your current workplace to make it less frustrating? Anything at all, even a little bit? I’ve found that leadership in my workplace (corporate) means getting totally fed up with something and deciding to do something about it yourself. The more I take matters into my own hands, the more I hear management saying, “wow, you’re really displaying strong leadership here.” Which is hilarious because in my head I’m thinking, “that’s because I’m totally pissed off and if nobody else is going to change things, then I will.” End result is that the frustrating thing becomes less frustrating because someone (me) finally did something about it. Win for me, plus another thing to add to my resume for when it’s finally time to leave.

      Different rules may apply for academia, so YMMV.

      1. Camelid coordinator*

        I am a staff member in academia, and I employed the same strategy. Who would be responsible for the things you would most like to see change? If you can’t pinpoint a person make it you. I can’t change the resources my program gets or the esteem in which we are held but I can change how the resources are directed and what our day to day work looks like.

    5. JelloStapler*

      Are you a clone of me? Not because of your username (which is funny since we’re also both in academia). But you describe it very much what I have felt off and on in the last 10+ years. Salary can be so inconsistent in higher Ed, which makes it pretty challenging.

      I focus on my good things in my job and the things that continually make me stay. Balance out being paid more with confidence in my job and enjoying those I work with.

      1. JelloStapler*

        Plus I use the fact that I have institutional knowledge and credibility to try to give voice to things that need to change.

  29. Admin 4 life*

    Is a comp review a good time to ask for a raise?

    I’m at a minimum $20k below market rate for my title and experience (I’m in Colorado so I pulled current job ads for our competitors and other global tech companies). I received rave reviews this year from my boss and my boss’s boss (I have them in writing). I’m also getting info from my peers that I’m grossly underpaid by about $25k if I factor in location, tenure, and responsibilities. My peers have also told me they’ve all received 2% raises in their reviews which doesn’t even cover cost of living or take into account that no one received raises last year due to covid.

    I’m applying externally to the tech companies I’ve found for a lateral move with a pay increase. I would really like to stay where I am though because the company is healthy and stable with good longterm prospects.

    1. Not Today Satan*

      I wouldn’t want to stay at a place that doesn’t care about paying me a fair wage. I totally get the fear of the unknown, but 25k under market is pretty extreme.

      1. Admin 4 life*

        There are other benefits that are keeping me interested in staying like the PTO policy (4 weeks a year in the US and 16 weeks parental leave) and 401k matching. It’s about $15k a year in additional compensation that only two other companies might match. I’m also a solo parent and have a disabled child and we’re fully remote which is such a help for me.

        My resume is prepped though and I am looking if it works for my family situation.

    2. Panicked*

      If you’re underpaid by $25k, I don’t think a raise is going to get you anywhere near market rate. Money might not be everything, but I would absolutely be looking elsewhere.

    3. DG*

      Even if they *did* give you a 25% raise this time, they’re still giving paltry annual raises otherwise. Within a year you’d be underpaid again, especially with the way inflation is going right now.

      1. Zephy*

        Not 25%, $25,000. OP didn’t say what percentage of their current salary that is, but if that’s “grossly underpaid,” I’m thinking it’s probably in the ballpark of 50%.

        1. Admin 4 life*

          It would be a 26% raise for an additional $20k a year. So I’m at $75k a year but the starting salary for someone with 15 years supporting c-suite is now $90k to $110k at the global tech companies with locations in Colorado.

    4. Cthulhu's Librarian*

      It’s a perfectly reasonable thing to bring up, especially when you’re being underpaid significantly.

      In a healthy company with reasonable internal policies, it shouldn’t hurt you.

      Many companies aren’t healthy, and dont have reasonable internal policies, however, which is the factor you have to balance.

      1. CallyR*

        Also in Colorado in tech, and it might be worth sticking around if they are planning a general market review (and you’re not otherwise interested in moving on). COL and tech salaries have been rising so fast esp around Denver that 20-25% market adjustment is highish but not unthinkable (and doesn’t necessarily mean the company habitually underpays by that much; although you’ll have to figure in whether they’ll actually be able to keep up with salaries in the future, if things continue like this)

  30. Bex*

    Too late for advice but still curious if I’m off-base here!

    My (small, privately owned) company had a happy hour scheduled for yesterday afternoon. Originally, it was going to be at the office, but a couple days before, the CEO/owner announced a new location – just a street address, no business name supplied or available on Google maps when I looked it up. I’m pregnant, and working from home has meant I haven’t had a chance to share the news with many co-workers, so I was particularly looking forward to seeing them and catching up! At the start time of the happy hour, I was still finishing something up and hadn’t left yet when a co-worker who does know about my pregnancy texted me to let me know the venue was a private cigar club (our state doesn’t allow smoking at bars, restaurants, or almost any indoor public space), there were other members there in addition to our group, and it was very smoky. I hemmed and hawed quite a bit and ultimately decided not to go. I understand the risk isn’t huge, but I really don’t like being around smoking anyway and it just didn’t sound that appealing anymore! And while my co-workers are lovely and this might not have come up, I’d much rather risk being “uptight pregnant lady who is no fun” than “irresponsible pregnant lady who subjected her future child to poisonous second-hand smoke.”

    I’m feeling fine about my choice and not THAT disappointed to have missed the event, but also pretty flabbergasted at the “surprise cigar bar” thing! I’m pretty sure one of my co-workers has asthma. My boss said she’s going to charge the company for dry cleaning her coat because it smells so bad from being in there for 2 hours. No one knew about the smoking before they arrived, as far as I know, except the CEO who belongs to the club and handled the arrangements (including refreshments) himself, for I think the first time. (His Executive Assistant is the friend who warned me, so I think if she didn’t know, no one did.) Is this as weird and inappropriate as I think it is?

    1. Not Today Satan*

      Yes. At least with a bar, a non-drinker could go but not drink alcohol. A cigar lounge forces even the non-smokers to breathe in smoke. It’s ridiculous.

      1. Reba*

        Ridiculous! I’d be so shocked.

        Bex is right, the CEO is (self-centered? lazy? just incredibly clueless?). I love the Boss’s attitude about her jacket.

        1. Bex*

          I think he’s a middle-aged man whose idea of what is “cool” hasn’t evolved much in the past 2 or 3 decades and thought everyone would enjoy being admitted to this exclusive venue that is accessed with a door code. Which probably could be abbreviated as self-centered and/or clueless, yes.

      2. Ama*

        Yeah this would be a hard no for me, and I don’t have breathing issues, I just strongly detest strong smells like cigar smoke and have no desire to come home needing to take an immediate shower and wash everything I have on. You really can’t “surprise” people with that kind of activity.

        1. curiousLemur*

          Me too. I’d be pretty annoyed. Who in this day and age thinks it’s a good idea to move a get-together to a smoky place with almost no warning?!

    2. londonedit*

      I am 100% not pregnant, am also not remotely uptight and I absolutely love a drink or five, but I would hate a cigar bar and definitely wouldn’t go. Smoking in indoor public places was banned in the UK in 2007 and I remember how awful it was before that as a non-smoker coming home from a night in the pub or at a gig and having to put all your clothes straight in the wash. Waking up with your hair smelling of smoke unless you’d bothered to have a full shower before going to bed. I have no desire to return to those days, let alone the health impacts of sitting around in a smoky bar.

      1. Non Smoker*

        I can remember having the same experience in restaurants in the U.S. The “barrier” between smoking and non-smoking areas was just a false designation, since there was free airflow between the two sides. Having to take a shower when you got home so you didn’t smell of an ash tray is not something that I miss.

        Also, cigar smoking is (I understand) more exclusive than smoking in general. One of the people I knew in graduate school mentioned that he used to smoke a cigar that tasted to him like a steak and smelled to his coworkers like camel dung.

        Would not be my choice of a good get-together and I would have been ticked to drive somewhere and then have to drive home.

      2. anonymous73*

        In the olden days when I was young and frequented bars, in the winter my friends and I would all stand by the trunk with it opened, and once everyone was “ready”, we would take our coats off, throw them in the trunk and run to the bar. I have no desire to go back to those days!

    3. Cat Tree*

      Yeah, that’s shady. With my asthma, I would have had to drive all the way there and then turn around and leave. I suspect they intentionally hid that it was a cigar club because they knew many people would object.

    4. Dark Macadamia*

      Super weird. It’s not reasonable to assume everyone would be comfortable with this type of venue and I feel like the vagueness about the location shows that CEO knew this and didn’t care.

    5. Anonymous Koala*

      I would have skipped the event too, and I bet it excluded a lot of people. If you feel comfortable with it, is there anyway to pass your feedback up along the chain? Maybe relying to the invite with ‘thanks for thinking of me, would have loved to attend, but I can’t be around tobacco smoke right now?’

      1. Bex*

        We don’t really have HR, so my best two “up the chain” options are my boss and the CEO’s EA (who sent the actual invitation even though she wasn’t the planner). They both already know exactly why I wasn’t there and I think were annoyed on their own behalfs (behalves??) anyway, so I don’t think there’s anything left to do at this point but shake my head and be glad I got a warning before I left my house! And also enjoy the validation of lovely strangers on the internet, which I really appreciate because at the time I was afraid I might be overreacting!

        1. Cordelia*

          totally not overreacting! and at least next time you’ll know to be very wary of any “fun” event arranged by your CEO…

      2. Ashley*

        but I can’t be around tobacco smoke. No need to add right now because no work setting should force you to breath in tobacco to get face time with the CEO.

    6. LadyByTheLake*

      Being around and breathing in cigar smoke is something that many, many people object to — not only do many people find it stinky and gross, but secondhand smoke is dangerous. Add in the people who have asthma or other breathing issues, any health concerns etc. and this was at the tip top of NOT OKAY.

    7. Jay*

      I’m many years past any change of pregnancy and would be FURIOUS to find out I’d been invited to a cigar bar without being told. My husband cannot tolerate the smell of smoke; if I’d even stepped into the place, I would have had to drive home with the windows open (yes, it’s cold here) and leave my clothes in the garage because even bringing them into the laundry room would have made him ill. Followed by a long hot shower to try and get the smell out of my hair (not always successful).

      Ugh ugh ugh ugh. NO.

    9. Be kind, rewind*

      I love cigar bars, and even I think this was a horrible idea for all the reasons that you brought up: people with asthma/COPD/etc, people who don’t want to out themselves as pregnant, the smell… You have to really want to be there!

      Plus, depending on what the COVID situation is in the area, it might not be a good idea to be wafting in everyone’s smoke exhalation anyway.

    10. anonymous73*

      I’m not pregnant, do not have asthma, and once I found out it was a cigar bar would have declined, or gotten there, turned around and gone home. I have never smoked, and since they’ve outlawed smoking indoors have zero tolerance for being around smoke, ESPECIALLY cigars. You are not off base and if anyone thinks you’re being ridiculous, that’s their problem. I don’t blame you one bit.

    11. pancakes*

      Yep, it’s weird and extremely inconsiderate. Cigar smoke is something a LOT of people, even cigarette and weed smokers, do not enjoy being around, and I can’t think of any good reason to spring a venue like this on people as a surprise. I’m surprised that anyone who doesn’t smoke cigars stuck around at all, let alone for 2 hours. I’d have turned around and left right away.

    12. RagingADHD*

      This stinks (literally as well as figuratively) but IME it’s not out of the norm for a CEO/owner to be clueless and self centered about what counts as a “treat” for the underlings.

      1. curiousLemur*

        That might be it. Plus smokers don’t seem to be able to smell smoke as well as non-smokers.

    14. InsufficientlySubordinate*

      If I had gone, I would walk back out in as short a time as possible. I’ve had to tell co-workers before that I can’t sit next to them in a meeting because they came back from a smoke break and I can smell them and will get a headache and have to head home. so , yqeag. I’m leaving the cat’s typing in .

    15. Admin 4 life*

      I would have skipped it and as an admin I would have told him it was a bad idea if I’d been asked to arrange it.

    17. Bagpuss*

      Yes, totally weird and inappropriate.
      (I am another one who would have had to have turned round and left – I am asthmatic and cigar smoke is the worst trigger for me, to the point that if I actually went inside, I would probably be leaving in an ambulance .)

    18. SnappinTerrapin*

      Very rarely, I will light a cigar or pipe. Usually outdoors and/or alone. (No matter how pleasant I may find the aroma of fresh smoke on occasion, I am not at all fond of the smell of stale smoke.)

      But I can’t fathom thinking this was appropriate for a work get-together, for all the reasons noted by others. It’s just not considerate of others’ needs or preferences.

  31. Cold Fish*

    Sorry, this is more of a rant than anything but if anyone has some advice it would be appreciated.
    Some background that may be coloring my current view. My manager just got back from a 10 day vacation. Currently it is only her and I in our department, so I’ve been covering some tasks that she typically does and I’m not as ahead as I typically like to be. The last couple of weeks I haven’t been sleeping well (health, not work related). And I have a mouse in my house ☹ so I haven’t been cooking (ie. Not eating well). In other words, I am not in the best of moods.
    Anyway, right before leaving for her vacation, my boss had a meeting with Big Boss that I am just hearing about. In this meeting it was decided that I will have to change one of my spreadsheets in two ways. One: to add information for another department that already has this information but (gasp) they would actually have to take five minutes to look something up. It is just such a burden to them and they just can’t figure it out (yes, my eyes hurt from rolling so hard). Two: to completely change how one of the columns is figured in a way that I specifically organized it NOT to do it because it will seriously take me 4X the amount of work to do it that way to save the person who wants it this way literally 3 F***ING minutes! All told, I’ll have to spend an extra 5-6 hours of pointless busywork to save 10 minutes of work on the other end (no more than 5 min in two different departments).
    So, as she is telling me this, my manager can tell I am upset and word for word tells me “Hey, I’m just the middle man here.” Grrr, no she is NOT just the “middle man” she is the ***dam* department MANAGER. It is her job to push back and argue with Big Boss that this is stupid and a waste of time and the other departments can actually do their jobs rather than front load the work onto us. I don’t know how many wasted hours of work I’ve spent on processes that other departments have put in place (with no argument from manager), then months (or years) down the line those same departments will look at us in a meeting like we are the stupidest of creatures and ask why we are doing it that way because it’s so cumbersome and no they don’t need that at all. But manager would rather put in a process (like type a sentence, get up and walk around chair three times, sit back down and repeat) than push back even a little. Because that is “what Big Boss wants”.
    I am just so tired of carp like this happening here. End rant.

    1. librarianmom*

      First of all, you don’t know if your manager didn’t argued against the changes but lost. She may also feel the way you do, but Big Boss makes the rules.
      Secondly, you may or may not perceive the amount of effort saved by the changes is correct. You know it’s a lot more work for you. But there may be things you are not aware of that make the changes more productive.
      Thirdly, it sounds as if the major responsibility for producing the spreadsheets is in your department. So it is your duty to produce the most workable product — not the easiest, quickest product —- but the best, most useful product. If that requires more work on your part, so be it. If it requires you to research how your software may help you or how you can retool your spreadsheets to be more efficient, so be it. That is not “busy work,” it is the work required to make most useful. If you need more time to produce it you and your boss need to work out what job duties can be taken away for you to have time to do this work.
      I suggest you adjust your attitude to wanting to produce the best work product possible that will be the most useful to the most number of people possible.

      1. anonymous73*

        This. Many times the “busy work” people do is to help those making the big decisions. You may see it as “only 5 minutes of their time”, but their time is often more valuable than yours and they have less of it to spare for tedious tasks. If I’m going from meeting to meeting all day, I’d much rather have 1 spreadsheet (or document/PPT/etc.) to review for information than have most of it in one place and then have to look up something else.

        1. Cold Fish*

          1. I do know how much time it will take them. It is literally looking up info that is already in the file that I now have to type onto the spreadsheet. It adds no value. It is not contributing to any “big decisions”. It is the definition of busywork.
          2. These other depts are not “superior” to me. Their time is not more valuable nor are they doing more important work. We are equals.
          3. I have been in meetings with my manager. She has NOT fought this. At most she tried to say something but was interrupted and gave up.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            Can you write an Excel function that links/retypes/recalculates the data where it’s used?
            Your working spreadsheet does not have to be the report that your users reference.

    2. The Dogman*

      That sucks.

      Look for a new job is my advice. This lady won’t support you, so why carry on supportign her and the corporation?

      Good luck whatever you decide but I think you can find a better place to work!

  32. StellaBella*

    Hi all. My work week is almost over in about 90 min. But. I am really struggling with motivation. Any tips? I love my job and team and boss. We changed clocks last week and it is cold and dark early and I am still WFH (I love this) 4 days a week. However, we are supposed to be happy to want to go back more often to the office but our covid cases have doubled this week and I am still very careful and try to limit my exposure to once a week at the grocery only. I am not sure if it is a mild winter depression, the end of a project I have worked on ending soon, a covid depression, or just tiredness and in need of a break. I have not travelled anywhere since October 2019. I walk every day at lunch, and have recently started to do more exercise but still feel unmotivated to do the work I need to do. Ideas to help get more motivated?

    1. Mazey's Mom*

      I can identify with almost everything you’ve written! I’m not sure I can offer any good tips, but for me, I find that my periods of motivation ebb and flow, so while I may not be very motivated now, I know it’s not going to last forever. Give yourself permission to be not OK with your level of motivation, instead of feeling guilty that you should be doing more. I try to seek out something to do that holds my interest more (maybe learn a new skill, or get involved more with a professional organization), or maybe adjust my work schedule a little bit to take advantage of the times where I’m more work-productive. Maybe I’m not doing as much for my paid job right now, but I pat myself on the back for reorganizing my bookcases and cleaning a bathroom that only my cats use. Sometimes it’s the little things that count.

      1. StellaBella*

        This is true, and from June-Sept I worked 6 day weeks every week and was very productive. Good points overall thanks. Good luck to you too! And I bet your cats are happy!

    3. WellRed*

      Do you mean motivated for the rest of the day? Once I’m done with the musts on Fridays I tend to downshift to really low brainpower tasks or wasting time till Monday. I make no bones about this. I often just announce I’m out.

      1. StellaBella*

        No, I mean motivated in general, this really started ten days ago, then we had the time change here, and the blah weather. But this tactic of getting small tasks done is a good one, and I can see that helping me so thanks I will aim for that next week at the end of each day.

    4. Hillary*

      Vitamin D and a sun lamp can some people in the fall – have you tried them? Pale people in northern latitudes are usually very vitamin D deficient if they don’t take supplements.

      I bought an underdesk elliptical, and my bff and I started walking a lot. We’re being reasonably careful about COVID but getting the socialization we both need. Small rewards can also help rebuild your motivation.

      We’re all very tired after the last 20 months. Try to give yourself grace.

      2. StellaBella*

        Oh and thanks I had Vit D tests in October, all good there, and have had 3 tests in the past 2 years for that. I do get outside at least once a day too but yes a sun lamp is something I am thinking of.

  33. Nonprofits Only Promoting from Within*

    This might be the case in for-profit as well, but my experience is in non-profit.

    I’m at the managerial level, but I want to work somewhere else. It seems like 90% or more of the nonprofit jobs that are posted are entry level. I rarely see manager jobs and almost never see director-level jobs. (Exceptions are things like development or tech that require certain skills you can’t just promote direct service staff to.)

    It’s really frustrating…. when I see it from the inside, people keep getting promoted from within because they’re already there, and the head boss doesn’t want to do a search. But the people often don’t have the necessary skills, nor are they coached or trained to obtain the necessary skills.

    It’s really frustrating, both as a current employee surrounded by mostly incompetent leadership, and as someone job searching. I’m actually in one of the fields that does hire externally, but I’m interested in getting more involved in programming, but that seems impossible unless I’m willing to step down on the career ladder at a new place.

    1. House Tyrell*

      This might be regional! I live in the DMV and basically only ever see AD and Director and Senior roles being posted for non-profits but people are a lot more transient here than they might be in other areas.

    2. Coenobita*

      That’s so interesting – I work at a very large nonprofit and the #1 issue among staff is how hard it is to get promoted from entry-level to mid-level roles. (There is plenty of internal promotion into senior-level roles, with varying outcomes and also a lot of unending “temporary” acting positions.) There’s been a huge push from staff to get the organization to open its mid-level job postings to internal folks first, before they get posted publicly.

      1. Nonprofits Only Promoting from Within*

        Interesting! At the 2 nonprofits I’ve worked at, mid/senior level jobs aren’t even posted externally most of the time. Or they do the dreaded thing where they bring 5 poor external souls in to interview but always hire the internal candidate.

        I can only think of 2 exceptions in the 6 years I have worked here.

        1. Coenobita*

          Huh! I wonder if it’s a size thing or a sector thing (we’re in the environmental/health/science space) or what. Previously I worked at a consulting firm that primarily held federal contracts, so all of our hiring was extremely regimented and everything was posted externally, so even this level of internal hiring is new to me.

          1. Nonprofits only hiring from within*

            I’m in social services. I’m pretty sure leaders have convinced themselves each contract is so unique and special that someone without experience in the particular grant could never get up to speed.

      2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I have a similar “higher level roles only go to outsiders” experience. Small organization (>30 staff), environmental space.

        The frustrating part is we lose experienced staff with institutional knowledge, then hire for the exact role that person left to pursue (because we wouldn’t promote them to that role). Ridiculous!

    3. Be kind, rewind*

      I hear ya! I work in a role that usually hires entry level and trains people up. I’m in management now, and in the YEARS I’ve been keeping an eye on job boards, I’ve only seen 3 management positions ever posted from other companies.

      It’s actually part of the reason I’m soon switching back to an individual contributor role. Experience DOING the thing opens up more possibilities than experience MANAGING the thing.

  34. It's All Gouda*

    I have a friend/coworker who works at a second job part-time one day a week. We have been remote since Covid started so he’s been able to bring his work from the first job to the second job and be present enough that no one knows he’s at another job. Second job doesn’t care that he’s doing first job stuff while there as long as the work gets done.

    I’ve known about this since we started working remotely but didn’t say anything for various reasons. Now there’s a possibility that I will become this friend/coworker’s supervisor in the near future. I’m not sure how to address this issue with him or what to say. Any input would be appreciated.

    1. ecnaseener*

      Since second job doesn’t care, I’m guessing it’s the type of job that mainly just needs a butt in a seat and naturally has a lot of downtime? The type of job students often take because they can do homework most of the time? If so, I honestly don’t see this as a problem the way two full-time jobs is a problem.

      As his supervisor, you probably do need to check whether it’s allowed by your company’s policy though. And if the second job is allowed, you can be firm about needing him to be just as available during that one day as he needs to be the rest of the time.

      1. ecnaseener*

        Also – even if you weren’t becoming his supervisor, you can still suggest he check the employee handbook to see if he’s in the clear.

    2. L. Ron Jeremy*

      Only address the work he is doing for you if he starts underperforming. Say nothing otherwise.

  35. Sigrid*

    If anyone is subscribed to Bloomberg News, the columnist Matt Levine (who writes a HILARIOUS financial newsletter and is legitimately the only reason I pay for a Bloomberg subscription) spent a while talking about the trials investment bankers have with keeping people in his column yesterday. He was delightfully snarky. Given the recent letter to Alison, I thought I’d share!

    Link in followup comment. Bloomberg is behind a paywall but I think you get one free read.

    2. Ranon*

      I think the newsletter is a free email subscribe, or at least I get it emailed every day, don’t subscribe to Bloomberg, and certainly didn’t intend to do anything shady…

      Honestly some of the best comic writing of our time, love Money Stuff

  36. Not Laid Off*

    My company announced mass layoffs earlier in the week and since then I’ve been absolutely slammed with messages from recruiters – probably over 3 dozen at this point. Clearly they’re all blasting people in my position at my company but only one recruiter came out and mentioned that my company had layoffs and how does that make me feel, and even she didn’t fully say ask directly if I was laid off. It’s pretty funny in my opinion, not the layoffs of course but how dozens of people are all keeping up the “just came across your profile” as if by accident. Anyone have similar experiences or stories?

    I realize I’m probably finding more humor in it since my role is not as risk of layoffs, but it does have an absurdity around it.

  37. Sweet Carrot Lime (bum bum bum)*

    Topic: Work holiday gift swap (not to a specific person but as each person opens gifts they can be swapped)
    Max: $25
    Team: 5 women
    Non-profit: food recovery, agriculture (we have a farm) and food equality

    I want to buy something handmade off Etsy and ideally from an in-state maker.

    My first choice is a cotton bag with an ag motif “Sweet Carrot Lime, (bumbumbum)’ since we’re in NC. We’re also focused on sustainable and organic farming which these are those types of bags.

    My second choice is a hand made coffee mug as we all drink coffee.

    Any other thoughts? This is a great team and although I’m leaving in January (after only being here 6-mos) I want to say thanks for inviting me to stay through the holidays (major fundraising season).

    1. Gracely*

      I feel like I’m missing something, because I have no idea what “sweet carrot lime” has to do with NC?

      2. ThatGirl*

        It’s a riff on “Sweet Caroline” by Neil Diamond. Which I actually associate more with New England, but it works.

    2. Marillenbaum*

      I think both of those sound like great gift ideas–thoughtful, but not so personal they don’t work for a swap.

    3. CBB*

      Coffee mug. In a gift exchange years ago, my Secret Santa gave me a gift card to a local independent café and a mug in my favorite color with my initial on it. I never got around to using the card, but I used the mug every day for as long as I worked there.

      Next year, I went out of my way to get my giftee some special loose-leaf tea, and stopped at a dollar store to get a gift bag. While in there I saw a mug in her favorite colors (or at least the colors she often wore) so I grabbed it. I have no idea if she like the tea, but it was gratifying to see her drinking from that $1 mug even years later.

      Moral of the story: people like mugs.

    4. Niniel*

      Definitely the coffee mug! I like both bags and mugs, but I get so much more joy from mugs than I do bags.

    5. Katie*

      I think for a gift swap/Yankee swap type situation like yours, the bag. It’s more quirky and original, and I’ve seen quirky be very popular at Yankee swaps. And people know they where they can get a handmade coffee mug if they want, but do they even know about the existence of a bag punning on both their state and their line of work? It might be the sort of thing they never knew they needed! (That said, I would probably myself choose the coffee mug, even though I love puns, so maybe the coffee mug is the way to go!)

      But with only five people (four if you subtract yourself), you might do a thought experiment: Knowing what I know about coworker X, would they prefer the mug or the bag? And then go with what you think the majority would choose. (And which would you choose at a swap?)

    7. WellRed*

      I think both are fine but the bag is more original and cute. I have enough coffee mugs and I like specific styles.

    8. A*

      I’d say go with the mug – the bag sounds really cute, and I can’t speak for others, but I know I’m personally drowning in bags/totes etc. as I have my own I purchased when I started using reusable bags, as well as a few dozen I’ve picked up along the way as gifts, promo items etc. Given that reusable bags needs to be used consistently over an extended period of time to offset the eco drain of it’s creation / material sink, having an excess is counter productive.

      On an unrelated note, I had no idea Sweet Caroline was a thing in NYC as well. I’m in Boston and always associate it primarily with Fenway. Today I learned!

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Ha! I’m drowning in mugs and can never lay hands on my reusable grocery bags when I’m going to the store!
        Sweet Carrot Lime, you’re going to have to figure out your co-workers!

  38. No Tribble At All*

    Just want to say THANK YOU to Alison for telling everyone not to give a potential employer your salary number first in an interview! It would never have occurred to me to do that before reading this blog.

    In discussions with a potential employer, when they asked for my number, I managed to say “Given the large industry base in the area, I’m sure you’re paying a good value for the market” which they accepted. Made me feel like a crab cake being offered for “market value.” They made me the offer yesterday. Y’all, they offered 140% of what I expected!!!! And I know what I would’ve said was still good, because I specifically compared with friends with various employers in industry… but they’re a startup!! I was floored. It was all I could do not to squeal on the phone — I managed a polite “yes, that number is acceptable.”

    So hot diggety dog, Alison, you got me a huuuuuge potential pay increase!!

    2. Persephone*

      Apparently a lot of companies are asking you to include your expected salary IN THE APPLICATION. My husband who is job hunting (for over a freaking year!) tells me he’s lowballing so that his application doesn’t get thrown out. Ugh. But good to know not to bring that up when you get to the interview stage.

      1. JB*

        Yeah, I noticed that while job-hunting recently. Even the internal application for another position at the same company asked me to put my salary expectations. Not skippable.

    3. Elle Woods*

      Congrats on the new job! That’s exciting! Also I love that line. I may borrow it for an upcoming interview.

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      I did the same recently and they named a number $20k higher than what I had planned on asking for. And I responded exactly the way you did lol. 100% make them share their band first.

  39. Eldritch Office Worker*

    This is more of a vent than anything.

    I don’t have enough to do at my job. I’ve been here about three months and everyone tells me to NEVER let someone know you’re short on work it will backfire hardcore. And in theory my job should slowly evolve to take on more (I’ve observed this to be true). In the meantime though I’m just kind of bored. And worried someone’s going to catch me on AAM or realize I’m always listening to an audiobook in one earbud and get mad I’m not working. It’s kind of stressful!

    1. BayCay*

      I mean, yeah, don’t tell anybody you are bored or need more work because they will undoubtedly give you more. A better way to phrase it if you do want more constructive work to do is say, “I have some time on my hands in between tasks and I wanted to ask if there are any other projects I might be able to assist with?” And go from there. But I suffer the boredom problem from time to time to and I think it just comes down to the reality that a lot of jobs don’t actually require 40+ hours of work. But if you’re required to be a butt in a chair, then you just have to get creative with your work time. Some things I recommend: Read magazines or articles relating to your field, read career blogs, take quizzes, organize the sh*t out of everything you can, take frequent walks, use vacation time when it gets real bad, etc.

    2. fueled by coffee*

      Definitely sounds like you should apply for a second full-time job to work at simultaneously /s

      In all seriousness, I’d just wait for your job to ramp up. You can ask this as a hypothetical (“While I’m waiting for my role to take on more responsibilities, if there is ever a slow period, are there other tasks I should be helping with?”) and get an idea of the kinds of things your team might need help with — is there some kind of busywork that keeps getting pushed off that you can get through when you have nothing else on your plate? — but otherwise, most people are not productive 100% of the day, and you’ve been informed that things will get busier as time goes on, so I’d just enjoy it for now. If someone calls you out for the audiobooks, you can always just be honest: “I sent the Llama Grooming documents off to Boss, so I have some time before the next project.”

    3. anonymous73*

      I disagree on never letting someone know you need more work to do. I started my job in August, so essentially the same amount of time and the job I was hired to do takes about a half day per week to do. I had my 30 day check in with my boss and let her know. She spoke to the customer and still nothing has changed. She knows I want to work and is trying to help. If she hadn’t put me on another project, I’d be looking for a new job right now.

      1. Attractive Nuisance*

        I also disagree! This was a big mistake I made early in my career. I assumed my boss knew I didn’t have enough to do. I think it made me look like a slow worker and my boss was eventually upset when she realized how much empty time I had. I don’t think it could hurt to tell your manager you have extra time, unless you’re constantly complaining about not having enough to do!

      2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I think this is a very culture and individual specific thing. The fact that multiple coworkers have warned against it is worth paying attention to.

    4. The Dogman*

      You could work on that book maybe? Take up pixel art perhaps? I love the retro vaporwave art style personally…

      More seriously who is telling you to not ask for more to do? Other workers? Is it cos it might cause them to have to do more work?

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        No I think the more work I do the less they’ll have to do, in theory. I think it’s people who have seen people in my position get overwhelmed.

    5. Filosofickle*

      It has almost never backfired on me. (In fact, can’t think of a time it has.) I certainly don’t say “I am bored because I have only 10 hours of work and I don’t even know why you’re paying someone in this job”. But letting my team / boss know I am have capacity to take on a more has always served me. It can help to be specific — could I do X or is there a way I can jump in on Y. That way you’re not expressing boredom, you’re expressing a desire to grow or contribute.

      1. Girasol*

        This is a good idea to do once or twice – not just ask for work but suggest something you could do that isn’t getting done or that some other employee feels overloaded with. But you have to pay attention to how well it works and back off if it isn’t well accepted. A timely suggestion may be helpful for a good boss but it can make a poor boss uneasy.

        1. Filosofickle*

          For sure! Pay attention to the cues. Sometimes it does not serve to ask at all. Sometimes it helps to say “How else can I be useful?”. Sometimes it pays to be specific with suggestions/solutions. Depends who you work for.

    6. Sherm*

      My current job started out very slow — I would have days where I had nothing to do — so I know that stressful feeling. But it did evolve to become quite busy. If you know this to be a pattern, I would not sweat it, and one day you’ll maybe miss those slow days a little. But keep your boss apprised. A good boss will work on getting your workload up to speed and will not punish you for not having enough to do through no fault of your own.

    7. Paris Geller*

      Are there training/development opportunities you can do? If your workplace has some sort of resources for those, maybe start there. Also even if they don’t, perhaps look into free webinars/trainings/etc. offered that are relevant to your field or that aren’t field-specific but are meant to help with work skills (I’m thinking of things like time management, goal setting, interpersonal communication, etc.)

      1. Angstrom*

        Agree. Asking “I’d like to learn more about X. Would that be useful for the group?” or “Are there specific skills I should work on to become more valuable?” are perfectly reasonable conversations to have with your manager.

        Learning how to automate routine tasks (spreadsheet macros, etc.) is almost always useful.

    8. Cheezmouser*

      Where’s the bottleneck? Is the person who is supposed to be assigning you work behind schedule? (I’m asking because in my case I’m the bottleneck for my assistant, who has to constantly prod me for projects.) If there’s a torrent of work that would be unleashed on you if you said you don’t have enough to do, then that means your team/department is busy but you’re not, which is bad. You may need to be proactive to see what you new projects can take on. Ask your boss what’s on their plate and if there’s anything you can assist with.

      If there is truly nothing you can take on and you’re just playing the waiting game, don’t sit there twiddling your thumbs. Use your free time to get organized, build your skills, tackle administrative projects, find a mentor/sponsor, etc. My husband, early in his career, got out of his entry-level position by getting to know some of the mid-level people he’d see in the break room and eventually asking if he could sit with them during his downtime while they worked. (The industry is built around an apprenticeship-style model.) While all the other entry-level staff were watching cat videos on their cell phones during downtime, he was chatting about basketball with the mid-level staff and in turn they would show him what they were doing. He got out of the entry-level position after a year and needed very little training before slotting in with the mid-level staff, who were all friends with him by then. (This is obviously harder to do in remote work situations, but the point is, don’t waste your time, use it constructively to build your skills and network with peers.)

  40. BayCay*

    If you’re having a bad day so far, take comfort in the fact that you didn’t blast an cavernous echo of a fart around the office like I did this morning.

    I’m fairly certain I’m a ghost right now because I’ve never died of embarrassment so badly.

    4. Marshbilly, not Hillbilly*

      This makes me glad I can wander outside into the loud manufacturing area at my plant, and fart to my little heart’s content. :-)

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Snort. Remonds me of this from John Flansgan’s prequel to Rangers Apprentice. A group of people sitting around a campfire, and someone make a bodily noise.
        Halt: “Better out than in.”
        His fellow ranger (whose name eludes me): “Not for those of us out here!”

  41. Gnome*

    I was in a group that became toxic at my job, so I transferred to another department. There was one project that I really had stood up a few years ago and was the only person who could bring the latest run into conclusion on time, so I finished that up. I really like the project, and it’s a kind of work I’d like to keep doing (new position is a bit different).

    The manager for that project wants me to be available and involved for the next round…. But every time I went in for meetings it was horrible being around the toxic people – just passing in the hall (I’m now out of a completely different office). The team for that project is cross-company, so it’s not the toxic folks… But I’m torn. How bad would it be to say that I’m happy to be involved next go-around, but Id need them to have the meetings on a different floor. The guy running it knows about the toxicity, ànd there are plenty of other places to have meetings (virtual isn’t an option for this). Thoughts? Is that crazy?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      So you’re saying you don’t want to meet on that particular floor so you don’t have to see this particular group of toxic coworkers? Yeah, I’m sorry, but that sounds pretty high maintenance.

        1. JB*

          It’s going to be difficult to do this without coming across poorly. However –

          Do you have a specific other meeting room that would be more comfortable for EVERYONE (ex. larger, better lit, better tech access, etc.) that you could suggest be used instead? The key is to say ‘why don’t we meet in (x conference room on a different floor)? It’s larger and has a nicer projector’ NOT ‘I can’t meet on that floor because I might have to pass by some people that I don’t like’.

    2. Not A Manager*

      I wonder in this case if it is so high maintenance? It sounds like Gnome has the option to pass on the project altogether and is seriously thinking of doing so. The only road block is them seeing these colleagues. It’s fairly easy and low-impact to move the meetings elsewhere. The supervisor is already aware of the back story.

      In this particular case, I think there could be a very low-key way to put a bug in the supervisor’s ear. It might be a bit much to declare that the only way you would work on the project is to move the entire damn meeting. But you could privately say something like “I really enjoyed working on Project and in general I’d love to continue to do so, but to be frank, I used to dread going to meetings because of their location. It’s really making me reconsider continuing on the project.”

      1. Gnome*

        Yes, that’s sort of what I was thinking. I don’t have to do the project, it would be a major help for them, and I could just say “given the history, Id really appreciate it if these meetings could be held elsewhere.” And let them read the subtext. If that floor were somehow the only one available, I wouldn’t skip a meeting or something (this is highly unlikely). Also, the meetings sometimes already.move to other floors due to prior bookings, so it wouldn’t be unusual. We’re talking maybe ten meetings in six months.

        1. Not A Manager*

          You could leave off “given the history.” Honestly, this sounds like such a low-impact ask, that I don’t think you need to provide any justification. How about just saying, “I’d love to work on this project. Do you think we could meet elsewhere going forward?”

          Or even, “I’d love to work on this project, but I’d need to meet elsewhere.” Just leave it at that.

    3. anonymous73*

      You could ask, but if the others you’re meeting with are in the area of the people you want to avoid, it’s kind of rude to make them come to your location for meetings – especially if they’re all pretty busy and would need extra time to go to and from the requested location. You’re not working with the toxic people, it sounds like you’re being too fussy quite honestly.

      1. Gnome*

        I didn’t get into exactly HOW toxic these people are – like run you down in the halls level toxic (hence not wanting to run into them). Thats a whole other topic… but it’s not them going to a different location, but just a different room, which happens sometimes anyway. Like a different floor of the building when the team is on multiple floors anyway. Either way, I would have been driving to their location, since now I’m in a different location entirely.

        That said, as much as I would like to support this project, and as much as they’d want me to (they have asked about six times in the month I have been gone), the responses here indicate that it would be more effort/capital than I’d like to spend, so I’ll just not do the project (it’s completely my choice if I help with it or not, since I’m in a completely different area now – think going from product development to finance, but I’m the only one who is good at the XYZ reports).

        1. Not A Manager*

          I’m swimming against the tide, but I honestly think it’s fine to gently convey this to your manager. It sounds completely trivial to them where they hold the meeting.

          1. Gnome*

            It is. But hearing the comments, given I just spent a bunch of capital to leave that area (both physically and in reporting structure), there’s enough of a chance of it taking more that I’m just going to be too busy to work that project.

            This is why removing poor performing people and toxic people is better in the long run. If they had taken care of it a year ago when I raised it (with document trails galore) I would still be there. If they’d taken care of it since, I’d be helping on this project. Their loss more than mine. And in the time I was in that part of the company, I earned every award they have and given an average of two raises a year because I am REALLY good at my job. I just don’t want to be around really mean toxic people at this point.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          You would be DRIVING IN?!
          Dang, just ask to make it a video call from your new office! You spend less of your new boss’s time that way, and nobody can complain about that.

          1. Gnome*

            I think you missed where that’s not possible for these meetings. I already phone/telecon in for the ones where it’s possible, but for a few, it’s simply not.

      2. Windchime*

        Sadly, this is what I had to do, too. I went to my grandboss to make sure she knew about the bullies (my manager and the director); grandboss supported them and told me to check my attitude. So I left. Manager was later fired for bullying and the director was let go because “the company wants to go in a different direction”, but it was too late for me. Fortunately, I landed in a place where bullying was not allowed and it was awesome.

    2. BayCay*

      I was in this situation except it wasn’t that the boss favored the bully, just that the bully was a solid worker and the boss didn’t want to go through the hassle of firing and replacing said bully. I quit.

    3. Lauren*

      You can’t win this battle. No amount of logic or reason will make a difference. The boss’ favorite is the bully. Get out.

    4. JB*

      If you have the social adroitness for it, I’ve had temporary luck with maintaining extreme neutrality + keeping the bully happy. (They’re often looking for a sense of power, so if you butter them up a bit – pick something they’re an ‘expert’ on and ask for their opinion, etc. while also gently pushing back when they start picking at a victim – IME they’ll settle down and you can get more control over the situation. Basically, carrot and stick them into more appropriate outlets for their emotional needs.)

      I usually only do this until I can get out of the situation. In the meantime, I also document any egregious misbehavior – date, time, what they did, who witnessed it, did customers see/hear. One time I’ve brought that to HR prior to finding a new position (although ended up moving to another location/position in the company before it was resolved – the bully was fired and the boss was encouraged into an overdue retirement), the other time I handed it over at my exit interview (that person was also fired after I left but I hear it was because it was discovered that she was ‘borrowing’ funds from an on-site cash machine).

    5. efrost*

      In my case the bully was my boss and the boss was my grand boss… So I started a regional mentorship program, requested to be paired with a different manager who was a favorite of the great grand boss, worked with the mentor to get assigned to a new portfolio, and watched my old bully boss get pushed out for underperformance.

      But yeah, leaving is the only real solution, whether that be to a new department or a new company entirely.

      (Boo to bullies)

    6. The Dogman*

      New job. Try the area manager/bosses boss first, but have the new job hunt underway and be ready to walk when you do.

      Unless you don’t care about the job/corporation in which case get a job found, quit and leave the bully and his boss behind you.

    7. anonymous73*

      If you have a trusted HR department, I’d go there. If you don’t, time to look for a job.

    8. Girasol*

      Experts on bullying generally say to quit. (Had to read up on that once.) But – non sequitur here – when it comes to corporate wellness programs, an HR program addressing bullying would be ever so much more effective and appropriate than weight loss advice or a steps-per-day competition, in my opinion.

  43. Paris Geller*

    Suggestions on how to keep the skills I acquired during my “small place of employment and everyone wears many hats” in my current workplace that doesn’t require them, but I someday want a job that will require those skills?

    Context: I’m a librarian who currently works in a suburban, mid-size library with about 40-50 employees at a mix of part time and full time and that is large enough to have separate departments for circulation, tech services, youth, adult, admin, etc. I previously worked at a small branch library with only five other coworkers. Nothing was departmentalized because everyone had to do everything. I love my current job, I got a 40% salary increase when I took this job, and have less responsibilities. However, I am interested in one day being a department or branch manager, and when I worked at the small branch I was often the person in charge when my boss was gone. I got a lot of great experience dealing with patron complaints, working more closely with admin on big, long picture projects, and day to day personnel issues (obviously no hiring or firing authority, but I definitely navigated my fair share of employee conflict).

    At current job, we’re well staffed enough that most of those things aren’t ever going to fall to me, because there’s always going to be a manager present, even if it isn’t necessarily my manager. I have no desire to leave my current job any time soon, but I have decided I think I would one day be interested in a management job, and those skills I had at smaller library would be valuable. I just don’t know how to keep them sharp when I’m not using them in current position.

    1. Gracely*

      You could ask to cross-train with your coworkers. And/or offer to help out in different departments if people are out for vacation.

      1. Paris Geller*

        Cross-training is mandatory for everyone here (which is helpful!), but I definitely have been proactive in offering other departments help if they need it.

    2. Anne of Green Gables*

      I do think that emphasizing in any application materials (cover letter, resume) that you’ve been 2nd in command and some of the responsibilities that you’ve done. I feel like libraries are more likely to value tasks you did at a previous job but not your current job than other areas I’ve ready about on this site. (For example, I did collection development 2 jobs ago but not previous job but was able to talk about how I approach collection development during my interview for my current job.) It also sounds like you have great examples from your previous job for those “tell me about a time when” questions. When I hire, I’m looking for the experience and mindset, not that the example had to be from the most recent job.

      In terms of keeping skills sharp, if your job has any goal-setting as part of a review period, that’s one way to choose something to keep sharp. Could you use committee work as a way to lead? Of if your library is a system and not a single library, I’ve found that volunteering to help at smaller branches when they are short staffed is a good way to get those “manager on duty” hours.

    3. Candy*

      I’ve worked at both academic and public libraries and at both there’s always a lot of committees and working groups needing individuals to join. Especially in the academic libraries, there’s never ending requests for volunteers for advisory councils and search committees and etc. Joining these groups is the best, and in an unionized library (where job descriptions and duties are very clearly outlined and cross-training and helping out other departments is literally not allowed) usually it’s the only way, to stay up-to-date in how other departments run and what skills are be used by those in other positions. Plus, unless you’re moving to another library district, any promotion is going to be decided by these same people on these committees so it’s a good way to network early.

  44. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

    I preemptively made a comment here about a month ago that I was going to stay with my employer solely because that had been so good to me throughout my cancer diagnosis and subsequent surgery. I should have known I was jinxing myself.

    Since then I have uncovered that my Team Lead who was promoted to my Manager while I was out is in waaaaaay over his head, and other analysts are leaving or planning to leave by the boatload. The ones who are content to stay have stopped doing their jobs and seem to be taking a “they can’t fire me because it will look bad on Manager if he loses anyone else on his team.” I have been busier than ever since coming back – my meetings have doubled to 6-8 a day, and I’ve been tasked with training new people on things I’ve never done and don’t know how to do. We have about 5 people left with more than a year of institutional knowledge and they are overwhelmed with their own work and trying to help those of us who have no idea what we’re doing. It’s all heavily client-facing and I hate it – I was told client work should be 20-30% of my day and it’s more like 80-90% now.

    I was complaining to my old boss that I’m still friendly with, and she mentioned that she’s looking for a Business Analyst for her team, a newly created position that was trying to move into myself when I was there, but an acquisition derailed everything in the works. Two years later they have been looking for someone for over a year but can’t find anyone who can grasp the weirdness of the niche industry that also has the advance Excel skills required. To say that I could slide into that role like butter would be an understatement, and I’ve asked for $6K more than I’m making now.

    I am really hoping this works out because CurrentJob is becoming untenable, and I don’t have the option financially of leaving without anything lined up. I also think it will be easier to let CurrentJob down by saying that I wasn’t looking and my old boss reached out to me with an offer I can’t refuse.

    I feel so bad about wanting to leave, but as I told my husband, “I didn’t survive cancer to be miserable 5 days out of 7 every single week.”

    1. fueled by coffee*

      I don’t think you need to feel guilty about this! People leave jobs all the time. Your current job treated you really well during a medical crisis (yay, them!). Now the conditions of that job have changed and you’re no longer happy there, so you’re thinking of moving to a new job. This is extremely normal. Fingers crossed that the job with OldBoss comes through, but even if it doesn’t, you don’t need to feel guilty about leaving a job for a better opportunity! That’s how business works!

    2. HigherEdAdminista*

      You are doing the right thing. Treating someone well during a health crisis should be standard. It isn’t always, but it should be.

      You survived so you could live. This is an opportunity you are excited about, with a person you like, making more money. It would be a disservice to yourself not to take it.

      1. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

        “Treating someone well during a health crisis should be standard. It isn’t always, but it should be.”

        You are so right! I have to keep reminding myself of that.

  45. Neon Dreams*

    I wrote a longer email to Alison as Friday good news, but I’m finally out of customer service as of Monday. I will be in claims processing instead. I’ve desperately tried for this for years. Yet, I’m feeling a little sad among the excitement. I grew up so much as a person from when I started. I have a lot more confidence than I used to, my skin is thicker, and I can communicate with all kinds of people. It feels like a chapter is closing. Hopefully onward and upward from here, though.

  46. Ol' Man Fuddy Duddy*

    Hi all. Some insight would be greatly appreciated.

    I’m in the season of annual reviews and just did my first one in my current role (I started at my present company at the beginning of this year). I have a great employee who I feel deserved more. I pushed back with my boss (CEO), made a great case for my employee, and got them a 10% raise. While not as high as I wanted (but a big shift is coming to my industry), it is the highest raise percent and dollar amount-wise for everyone else in the department (including myself I’ll bet when he does my review in Jan.).

    I had my review with employee. I was transparent that I think they’re a great employee and that I really went to bat for them to get them a good raise. Two days later, they messaged me wanting to meet and ask for even more. I realize I should not take this personally, but I can’t help it. I made more of a case for them than I did for myself (CEO and myself discussed all my staffers salaries) so I can’t shake this feeling of ungratefulness. There were years when this employee only only got a 2% raise, and now they’ve received double-digit raises 2 years in a row. For reference this new raise puts them right in the middle of the pack salary-wise.

    The employee is pretty young (mid-20’s and has worked there for 5 years) and this is the only company they have ever worked for. In my personal work experience (almost 20 years) with virtually all large-structured corporations, none of them did raises that high, and openly said if you got a 3% raise, you should be ecstatic. I realize times are different from the 00’s and 10’s, but dang?! Turning ones nose up at 10% more money seems crazy to me. Am I just sounding like a stereotypical “In My Day…” old man (in my early 40’s)?

    For reference; they’re getting other perks (bonus, trip, flex schedule, etc.) that I will be reminding them of since I doubt we can do more salary-wise.

    1. shakiras stolen purse*

      I understand why you would take it personally; but remember that your employee is asking *the company* for money, and they are the ones who have forced us to have go-betweens. Whether the raise request is reasonable depends on whether this role is
      1. at market rate
      2. reasonably well paid within the area they live in — for example, going from 40k per year to 44k per year in LA/NYC/SF would be a 10% raise, but you would still be broke as fuck. Going from 50k to 55k per year would be similar; although obviously less completely terrible.

      It also depends on how much new hires are getting. Let’s say your current hire “Steve” is making 60k/year. You give him a 10% raise so he’s now at 66k/year. You also hire someone new, “John” and he starts at 70k/year.

      Wouldn’t Steve be within his rights to want to be paid as much as John?

      1. Ol' Man Fuddy Duddy*

        Funny you mention the new employees. That’s the reason why I was trying to get as much as I could to balance out someone who left and came back and negotiated for a higher salary. All of that happened before I started.

        But I’ve seen companies accidentally let a loyal employees salary lapse below the pack. I’ve been at companies that do that. I advocate for my crew and am trying to not let that happen and have it cause frustration and other negative feelings.

    2. Parcae*

      You don’t sound like an old man. In fact, I don’t think this is age-related at all.

      Your personal work experience tells you that if you get a 3% raise, you should be ecstatic. However, that is NOT true universally, and I’d argue you’ve had the misfortune of working for some remarkably stingy employers over the course of your career. (I mean, I’ve been there myself, but that’s why I left.)

      Maybe, just maybe, your employee is ungrateful. But my guess is that they’ve been comparing notes with people in other companies and realized their salary isn’t competitive. If I’d gotten an outstanding review from my supervisor (and I’m guessing you give this employee a lot of positive feedback), I’d be pretty disappointed with still being “right in the middle of the pack salary-wise.”

      You can absolutely contextualize this for your employee. Say, “I really advocated for you with the higher ups and this is the highest raise percent and dollar amount-wise for everyone else in the department. You should know that raises like the one you just received aren’t the norm for our company/industry/region. In a typical year, I would expect average raises to be around X%. I’m very pleased with your performance but there’s a limit to how much your salary can grow here. We try to make up for this in part with perks like A, B, and C.” Etc. Try to put aside the feeling of ungratefulness and focus on giving your employee the information they need to manage their own career.

      1. Ol' Man Fuddy Duddy*

        You called it… stingy companies taking extreme advantage of people located in an area with a weaker job market. So most of my career I heard, “Consider yourself lucky to have a job”, “Any raise is a good raise” and etc. etc. etc.

        After 20 years, I am living in a much more populated area with a much stronger job market and apparently it has me thrown.

        1. A Genuine Scientician*

          So, here’s the thing:

          “I pushed back with my boss (CEO), made a great case for my employee, and got them a 10% raise. While not as high as I wanted (but a big shift is coming to my industry), it is the highest raise percent and dollar amount-wise for everyone else in the department (including myself I’ll bet when he does my review in Jan.).”

          The raise this person is getting is not as large as YOU wanted them to get. Is it therefore surprising that it’s not as much as THEY wanted to get, and that they want the chance to make their case for more?

          You may well not be able to give them more. But it’s not a complaint against you, it’s a complaint against your company that it sounds like you even agree with when you separate out the emotional reaction of having gone to bat for them.

    3. JimmyJab*

      This website constantly advocates for advocating for yourself, including regarding salary/raises/etc. You got your employee what you think is a great raise, they asked for more, the end. You said they’re in the middle of the pack, salary wise, and maybe they’re aware of that and therefore their advocacy makes sense. Either way, it is not ungrateful, unless they somehow said, this is unacceptable, I will quit if you don’t get me a higher raise. You do sound a little “in my day” but hey, you’re here asking so my suggestion is to adjust your thinking about this.

    4. Hlao-roo*

      Your emotional reaction sounds very human to me. But I have a few questions/comments about the situation. Your employee is (now) earning a middle of the pack salary. Are they a middle of the pack employee?

      As humans, we’re attuned to changes. So we think about raises more than salaries, because raises are a change and salaries fade into the background a bit. A 10% raise is a sizeable raise! But employees should be compensated based on the work they do, and compensation means salary, not raises. This is my long winded way of saying, if this employee does middle of the pack work and has a matching middle of the pack salary, explain to them that the 10% raise is it for this year, and their compensation will be looked at again during next year’s cycle. But if they’re a stellar employee, is there any way you can bump them up to a matching stellar salary?

      1. Ol' Man Fuddy Duddy*

        I’m going to try, but we’re in the finance industry and rates are rising so it’s going to be a challenge. They are a great employee which is why I’ll try, but an increased fixed expense is a harder sell when you’re staring down the barrel of anticipated leaner times.

    5. theguvnah*

      this happens all the time to me as a manager. Honestly, younger people/newer employees just do not have the professional experience to get this. Don’t take it personally. they’ll learn eventually and realize what a great manager you were.

    6. RagingADHD*

      I think the reason you’re taking this personally is that you made more of a case for them than you did for yourself. Why?

      Flip it around and advocate for yourself like they do. Maybe not exactly like they do if you think they’re out of bounds, but take note. They are a high performer, believe strongly in the value of their work, and understand that it’s business, not personal.

      You should do the same for yourself.

      1. Ol' Man Fuddy Duddy*

        The meeting I set up was to discuss my staff, not me (my review’s not for months) so I was a little caught off-guard. I had some rough notes that I had for myself, but not the case I had prepared for my staff.

        1. RagingADHD*

          Well, I didn’t mean literally at that moment, but in terms of your mindset.

          If you weren’t going to discuss your own comp anyway, it’s hardly fair make it personal that you went to bat for them instead.

          The employee didn’t force you to put your own needs/wishes aside and there’s no reason to hold your own choices against them.

    7. Girasol*

      Seems like I’ve seen a number of people write in saying something like, “I just rented a great new place but the rent costs twice as much. How to I tell my boss I need a raise?” Sometimes people who are learning the ropes of the career world confuse what they’re worth with what they think they need. It doesn’t make you a fuddy duddy that you know life doesn’t work like that.

    8. The New Wanderer*

      It sounds like you expended significant capital to secure a relatively great raise for your great employee, and then to be told (essentially) by that employee that it’s not enough – that’s hard to hear.

      My first take is that the employee is just using the ol’ negotiation advice of always ask for more and they don’t know that it might not be appropriate if you’ve already exhausted your corporate goodwill to get what you did. They just might have totally different expectations for what is a “good” raise.

      I remember a colleague telling me that when he reported to the same division as me, he was shocked at the “low” raises (single digits) that we got, compared to the double-digit annual raises he was used to from his previous division at the same company. We had different roles but I think we were both considered top performers. And I had also previously worked for the same other division but I never saw double-digit raises, in fact I’d say the raises were comparable across divisions. So I have no idea if he had been drastically underpaid at the start and the incredibly high raises were a way of catching him up, or if he was in a highly valued position that just got really high raises, but his expectations were very different from mine.

  47. Joobie*

    Hi all- I will be applying for a job soon, (more or less a lateral move from my current role, but with considerably more upward mobility) and I’m wondering if it’s ok to include my bonuses when I have to fill in the “current compensation” box? It’s about a 20% difference. Basically, if I make $100k base, my typical bonus for the year is $20k, so I’d prefer to report $120k.
    I’m not concerned about pricing myself out of the job- the company can certainly afford it, but I also want to ensure that I’m toeing the line on truthful salary disclosure. For reference, I’m in a state that doesn’t prevent salary history questions. Thanks in advance!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Yeah, that’s totally fine.

      Also, gross that they even ask what your current compensation is…

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Interesting, I had the opposite reaction as Anonymous Educator. I think a salary is salary, a bonus is a bonus (i.e., not guaranteed).

      That said, I’m not in a field where bonuses are a thing. I think this may have been discussed before, so maybe try searching in the AAM archives?

  48. blue wall*

    Tips for staying focused while using a laptop for notetaking during zoom and in-person classes?

    The internet is so tempting.

    1. Coenobita*

      For an in-person class, turn off your wifi! Obviously that won’t work for online classes, though. I actually took notes on paper through my degree because I couldn’t stay focused otherwise. My mom has one of those notepads where you handwrite stuff but it automatically goes into an electronic file, so you get the focus/memory benefits of handwriting things (if that’s a plus for you) without losing the ability to easily search, copy/paste, etc. afterwards.

      1. blue wall*

        Our in-person classes are hybrid, and we each are logged into Zoom on our own devices (+ a larger room device for audio). But that notepad sounds really interesting! I’ll think about something like that.

    2. Eliza Doolittle*

      If part of your issue is that you think of things that you want to just take care of real quick, like messaging someone about meeting later or buying that thing on amazon, try keeping a separate virtual sticky note off to the side. Just a quick “reminders” to jot that stuff down and get it out of your brain.

      If you’re mainly being drawn to say AAM because the lecture is boring and your mind is wandering, try taking more active notes during the lecture. Think of follow up questions, come up with things you could theoretically research more, think up examples, etc and write all of those in your notes too.

    3. Emmie*

      How much are you taking notes? Are they actually helping you?

      Stand up. Move around. Change your scenery. Your mind and body wants to do something more – something engaging or active. I am always more focused on learning when:
      – I put my laptop on my bar height counter, and take written notes.
      – Change the way you note take – perhaps start mapping your notes.
      – Prepare notes ahead of time by summarizing your reading. Either print these notes out, and take hand written notes in the margin, or add to your notes by typing additional info.
      – Walk around with your laptop. You can use a stand up desk / tray table, or just walk around your house. (Having notes taken ahead of time helps.)
      – Do something mindless while absorbing the material – like folding laundry.

      1. blue wall*

        Notes randomly throughout classes– we’ll do some translation work, I’ll check against what I translated, and then the instructor will do a mini-lecture.

        Appreciate the ideas to move around more, stand, change the way I take notes. Thank y ou!

    4. RagingADHD*

      Paper.

      Studies indicate you actually retain information better when you write by hand than when you type, anyway.

      1. anonymous73*

        This. In school I studied by recopying my notes over and over. In fact when I recently got my PMP certification, I would go through the videos for each chapter. Then I would review the chapter in the book and highlight important facts. Then I would write down the stuff I had highlighted, and then type them up. My husband thought I was nuts, and my hand hurt like hell, but the repetition helped me pass the exam on the first try.

    5. Girasol*

      Plain old solitaire, if you can do it unobtrusively. It cuts the boredom that makes you lose focus but it’s not complicated enough to be distracting.

  49. No Tribble At All*

    Serious question here. How to go about contacting former coworkers to ask for references, when you haven’t talked to them since you left? I was really close with my former team, but I got burned out, and I left in March. I meant to stay in touch better, but Covid, and also…. I’m not great at staying in touch, even in my personal life. Plus, it turns out that the job that I left them for was Not Great, which I was ashamed to admit. (“How are you doing? How’s the new job?” “Weeeelll, I don’t like it, and I’m job searching again….. but it’s still better than when I was with you!”)

    I feel a little bad that I’m doing the thing where you only talk to someone when you need something from them. Any advice on a script? Hope you’re doing well, was wondering if I could give your name and number to someone for a reference? The person I have in mind is pretty active on linkedin, so I know if I linkedin message him, he’ll see it. Thanks!

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t think you should feel bad at all. Honestly, they have the ability to say no or just ignore you. And, frankly, part of having worked with someone is the possibility they may want to use you as a reference. If they think highly of you professionally (not just you two are buddies and like each other personally), it isn’t a huge onus to field some questions about you from hiring managers.

      Not saying you should take it for granted or not consider it a small favor you’re asking, but it’s expected, and it’s not a huge deal. Just say you’re back looking at jobs, and you’re wondering if you can use that person as a reference. No need to make it extra fluffy.

    3. Reba*

      March is not that long ago! IMO “staying in touch” with professional contacts like this is like a once-a-year update. If you can wrap it in an invitation to meet up or have a catch up call, that would be nice and probably ease the “transactional” feeling in your mind.

    4. Bernice Clifton*

      I have run into this a few times. It helps to pick coworkers who would be flattered to be asked. :)

      I usually send a message like : Hi So-and-So, Hope all is well! I’m currently job searching and was wondering if I can put you down as a potential reference, and if so, what is the phone number and email you would be prefer I use?

  50. Hapax Legomenon*

    Has anyone ever used any kind of online career counseling that they found helpful? I have worked overseas in mostly customer service jobs for the last six years. I want to move back to the States and get a job that is not mostly customer service, but I don’t see how I can do that from where I am and I feel really stuck/unable to make the changes I need to make to move forward.

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Customer service in what industry?
      e.g. technical orders or retail returns or cable company service center?

      1. Hapax Legomenon*

        Various unrelated industries. The main ones were a gun website, a “club” style building that held restaurants and stores, and currently a gym. I helped customers place orders with the website, but with the others my job is mostly to answer the same handful of questions all the time.

  51. Best way for career changer to use LinkedIn?*

    I’m considering making a career change. Right now, I am mostly learning about fields where my skills and interests would make a logical shift. What’s the best way to use LinkedIn to learn more about other fields? My “feed” there is mostly posts related to my current field. I’m not a regular LinkedIn user and don’t really understand how LinkedIn “decides” what I see.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Start following companies in the field you want to be in. Also join groups for those industries.
      You’ll start seeing their posts on your feed. If they have videos or documents, you can download are read them to see what kind of customer they’re trying to attract.
      If you feel comfortable, you can post the occasional comment or even connect with people at that company.

  52. quill*

    Good morning, AAM! Nothing to report except that I’m fresh off the first paid vacation I’ve had in years (yay for new job with benefits!) and of course, one of my incubation chambers appears to be leaking water all over the floor. Fortunately as long as the incubator remains in spec it’s not my problem except to email facilities… (Yay for a job not at a startup where some emergencies aren’t automatically my problem!)

  53. Emmers*

    Proportional raises question: I’m on parental leave for 2 more months but check my work email once a week because academia doesn’t do leaves very well and the large team that I co-manage has finally gotten the substantial raise that we’ve been working on for 2 years. It’s a 40% raise which is to make up for the fact that the hourly rate has been stagnant for 8 years and is a very good thing. However it’s also now $3 a way from my own pay rate and only $1 away from my co-managers rate. Is it reasonable to bring this up or do I move forward with more traditional reasons for wanting a raise? My manager wasn’t super keen on discussing any of this with my co-manager a few months ago but had since pushed through her own raise. Our pay rate has also been mostly stagnant for the last 8 years although I’ve only been on the team for the last 2. Thoughts?

    1. Where is my raise?*

      I think that now is the right time to bring it up, especially since your manager pushed through her own raise (if I am reading that correctly). Hopefully you and your co-manager can present a united front, since that is how a colleague and I were able to get raises.

  54. Trivia Newton-John*

    I have a Zoom interview next week for the firm that I thought forgot all about me! Again with the COO (interviewed previously with them at the end of September via Zoom – they’re located in the HQ which is not where I would be working) and also with the managing partner of the actual office I would be working at.

    I also applied for another role with a different firm this past Monday. I had a phone interview yesterday, and they want to set up a Zoom interview next week with me and the managing director of *that* office. It would be a newly created position but also sounds like a fantastic role where I could grow and learn a lot. Slightly different than the first one.

    Both firms have good reputations. The 2nd one has slightly better benefits than the first one (that I thought was perfect for me). If I get offers from both, it’s hard to figure out which one to choose? I want *out* of where I am.

    But first I have to impress both firms in the Zoom interviews.
    The COO of the first firm and I already really clicked. Next week will be the first time I speak (virtually) with the managing partner of that firm. I have no idea how many others are up for this role, or where we are in the process for this firm — will I have to have another round of interviews and will it take almost another month for that to happen?

    The Zoom interview for the 2nd firm will be my first meeting with their director. I’d be reporting to them, so I don’t think I would meet with anyone besides them, but maybe?

    If they ask if I’m looking at other firms, what do I say?

    Any special magic on how I can stand out to both firms as being their ideal candidate? Both positions sound like incredible opportunities that align with what I’ve done and where I want to go, career-wise.

    1. PollyQ*

      Various thoughts:
      * You may have more interviews with both firms if they’re interested in you. It’s pretty normal to want to get a variety of perspectives for hiring, even if you’d just be reporting to one person.
      * They probably won’t ask if you’re looking at other positions, because it’s so incrediby common for job-hunters to be looking at other companies. It’s just as normal as them looking at multiple candidates. But if they do ask, I think it’s fine to be honest that you are indeed applying at other companies.
      * If they do both offer jobs to you? Make sure you get detailed info on the all the benefits. Differences in health plans, 401ks, vacations, etc. can add up to thousands of dollars a year. Weigh what you learned about the people you’d be working with, the specific work you’d be doing, and the overall vibe of the place.

      Good luck!

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      If they ask about other firms, I suggest something like, “I’m keeping an eye out, but I’m really excited about this firm and job because XYZ.”

      They don’t need to know more details unless you have a competing offer on the table.

  55. CreepyPaper*

    Hands up anyone else who works in logistics/supply chain and is DONE with people not reading your emails about delays and how long stuff is taking to get to them and clients who just won’t listen and all you want to do is send them the link for them to go get their HGV license and…

    Yeah, I’m done. I’ve lost count of how many ‘as per my previous email this is coming in on X vessel on the 25th of Never’ I’ve written this week. Thank every deity I can think of that it’s Friday.

    1. Raea*

      Yessss!!! Also done with questions along the lines of ‘can you please fix this GLOBAL shipping crisis?’ / ”can you please work a little harder to eliminate those pesky 301 tariffs’ / ‘please do what you can to minimize the impact of Brexit’. Much to my dismay, unfortunately I am not the gatekeeper of the world capable of mitigating global and political policies and challenges.

      1. CreepyPaper*

        The best one I had this week was from someone who obviously lives under a rock.

        ‘Why has X vessel been diverted away from Felixstowe? Is there an issue at port?’

        I had to resist so much just sending them a link to the BBC article about what’s going on. Oh, and what seemed like a never ending string of complaints about the haulage shortage. Again, just… read the news. Please. Don’t make me have to be professional or polite anymore to you because I’ve told you all this before!

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Snort. I wanted to see what the issue looks like on your side of the pond, so I Googled Felixstowe:
          –Is Felixstowe worth visiting?
          –What is the problem at Felixstowe?
          –Is Felixstowe a nice place to live?
          –Why are there delays at Felixstowe?
          50%, yep your customers are ignoring the obvious.my sympathies.

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I don’t work in SC but I am soooo sorry for yall right now. I know it’s nuts.

      1. CreepyPaper*

        Be glad you don’t, all eight of us in my department including my boss and her grandboss are barely hanging on and we’re running on coffee and Krispy Kreme mostly… and thank you for acknowledging the issues we’re having, a lot of people don’t realise there’s a whole Thing providing the stuff on the shelves or online store.

        We’ll get through it. We know we will. We just want y’all to be patient. Because you see, the consumer complains to the shop, the shop complains to the supplier, the supplier moans at us and we go and moan at the shipping lines.

        It’s a long long chain of complaining and everyone at every step of it is absolutely done, from the retail worker who got yelled at to the poor chap at the shipping line that I had a bit of a rant at today. I felt bad but sometimes you just have to let go a bit, right?

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          I’m trying hard to be extra nice and patient with store workers right now, but I know that rarely makes it up to you all the same way so just know that a lot of us really do know and appreciate it and will gladly tell people throwing a fit in a store to eff off.

    3. Business Librarian*

      My heart goes out to you. How is it possible for ANYONE not to know about supply chain issues now. The pandemic caused a lot of deaths! Who do you think died, CEOs? There aren’t enough truck drivers! There aren’t enough warehouse workers! And in the US we don’t have the extra crazy of Brexit.

  56. Fri-yay!*

    I left my old job about 6 weeks ago. They have hired my replacement and she’s been there about 2 weeks at this point. I left very detailed instructions. I continue to get 3-4 text messages a week, asking for very specific help. I’m happy to answer simple questions but am getting questions asking for very detailed answers about complex processes, At what point can I stop providing answers and tell them they are in their own? It is taking up a lot of my time and quite frankly, I’m annoyed.

    1. No Longer Gig-less Data Analyst*

      At previous jobs where I agreed to be available for a limited time for questions after leaving, I would ask them to put all questions in a list and send them once a day (preferably by email). I made it clear that I would be reading this email after hours and would not be responding to anything during work hours for my new position. I let them know I could do this for about a month after my last day, but after that I would have to turn 100% of my focus to NewJob and my personal life.

      Since you are already getting multiple texts, I’d let them know that you will have to leave them on read until after hours and respond then. And give them a date after which you will no longer be able to respond at all – it’s already been 6 weeks, I would give them another 2 tops.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I agree with most of your advice, with a tweak on the last bit. It’s been 6 weeks, time to cut the cord or setuo a contract and start charging the company.

        I’m being a little tongue-in-cheek, but mostly serious.

    2. L. Ron Jeremy*

      Ask them for $50 for each answer; that will slow down the questioning.

      Or tell them you don’t have time.

      Your choice.

    3. BayCay*

      Unless you signed or agreed to something that outlined a specific time frame and/or amount of help you need to give this person, I’d say you’re only morally obligated to respond to requests for about 3 months. AND I would only respond to requests for simple questions, or things that seem reasonable to you. I would ignore detailed requests, or say, sorry, I won’t be able to help with that. And after 3 months, they’re on their own, period.

      1. BayCay*

        I say 3 months, but depends on the job I suppose. If it was an intricate job, that might be reasonable but for some jobs, less time might be ideal.

    5. Ama*

      I would send her one message (maybe on a Friday evening so she has some time to sit with it): “Hi, I find I’m having to spend a lot of time on your questions and I really need to focus on my new job so I won’t be able to help any longer. I did leave a detailed set of instructions with [X], that should be able to help with most of your questions.” (I’d specify that you left instructions and who has them if you aren’t sure she knows about them as I have definitely seen instances where someone leaves documents and then they never get passed on to the new employee.)

      After that, do not respond any further, unless she or your old manager reach out to offer you money to provide training to her. (And even then, you can say no if you want.) It’s the job of the people who still work there to make sure your replacement can do her job, not yours.

    7. RagingADHD*

      “At what point can I stop providing answers and tell them they are in their own?”

      You can stop anytime. You could have never started. Tell her where the notes are and be too busy.

    8. anonymous73*

      You stop now. If you continue to answer they will continue to ask. It’s been 6 weeks – that’s way too long. Tell them you documented everything in detail before you left, and you’re no longer able to help. Then stop responding. If it’s tempting to answer, block their number.

    9. PollyQ*

      Another vote for “You can stop right now this minute.” I suggest a final message along these lines: “I’m sorry, but I’m swamped with my new job, so you’ll need to check the documentation or ask [boss] these questions going forward.”

  57. Kevin*

    During a Teams meeting, our (new to the company) VP of Operations was screensharing and she accidentally showed her IMs and she asked my boss “What’s his deal?” and my boss goes “He’s not really a people person but he knows his stuff.”

    I’m 99.5% sure they were talking about me since I’m a) not a social butterfly at all and pretty much keep to myself at work b) I’m the only person my boss manages c) I had a curt interaction with her earlier in the week. I’m a SQL programmer and her team wanted a bunch of “small, simple” changes to reports that ended up entirely breaking some things. Her team didn’t understand why these requests were causing problems, and she came down to my cubicle to discuss it in person and we had a pretty curt, tense conservation about it.

    1. BayCay*

      It’s hard, of course, to get a sense of how ‘curt’ that conversation might have been on your part, but I would suggest thinking about how you might move forward in a positive way. It’s really unfortunate that the new person accidentally shared her IMs on screen–you shouldn’t have had to see that and I would be really bugged too. That said, it sounds like somebody really new to the company noticed your demeanor enough to ask your boss is something was wrong. I’d suggest taking a kind but honest look at your demeanor at work and see if there are any adjustments you’re willing to make. Nobody should have to change their personality or plaster on a fake smile, but maybe you’ve picked up some habits (either physical or vocal) that make people think something is wrong. For example, I have total RBF at times and have had to work on ‘opening’ my face during meetings so people know I am interested in what they’re saying; it’s just that my concentration face can look like I’m feeling bitchy haha

      Or, it’s totally possible that the new VP and your boss are just very outgoing people and they don’t understand chill Type B people. I think either way, it comes down to how much you care about their opinions and whether that factors into your happiness and growth with the company.

      (Also, totally get the frustration that the team’s request caused more issues for you, but I’m hoping the curtness or tenseness wasn’t mostly on your part. Being curt with the boss isn’t a great way to express frustration, as it almost always backfires.)

  58. Gray Lady*

    Hey, random question for you folks… I have a junior colleague who recently told some senior staff to “eat shit.” We’re in a union environment, so her boss just told her not to speak like that.

    My spouse was wondering if in most offices that would get someone fired, or maybe some type of formal discipline?

    If the circumstances matter, the swear-er had missed an important meeting and didn’t like the tone of the senior staff reprimanding her for missing it. She hasn’t apologized or anything (or been asked to of course). It’s also a particularly busy time in the office.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Fired. Conversation first to make sure there’s not more to the story but assuming there’s not, fired. (Same if she said it to anyone, not just senior managers.) You can’t run an office with that going on.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        I’ve worked in dysfunctional environments where this was pretty much just status quo, but in every sane environment I agree 100% with Alison. Insolence isn’t professional.

      2. anonymous73*

        I had a job in the early 2000s as a Business Analyst. We were replacing our current system and had to meet with all the departments for their requirements. There was one woman who asked in a meeting if we could take some of the time from another meeting for a different area to finish her stuff and I explained that we couldn’t do that because time was tight – she would have to finish it on her own. She came to meeting number 2 and tried to take over with the stuff she was supposed to do on her own. I explained again that we couldn’t take time from the current meeting for her stuff. She told me to go to hell and called me a fucking bitch and stormed off. She was a manager and I was not. All I got was a forced apology note on my desk a week or so later.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      the swear-er had missed an important meeting and didn’t like the tone of the senior staff reprimanding her for missing it.

      Yeah, that’s not a good enough reason to say that. And the swearing isn’t the main issue here.

    3. londonedit*

      I’m not sure you could get away with outright firing in the UK, but it would absolutely rise to the level of a formal warning and/or disciplinary action, and the person would be on extremely thin ice. Obviously it depends on the situation – as Alison says you’d have a conversation with the person straight off, and it would make a huge difference whether it was completely out of character or the latest in a series of off-colour comments, but I think at the very least you’d get a formal verbal warning and it would be made clear that any repeat would lead to a final warning and/or dismissal.

    4. Anonymous Koala*

      Just curious (I’ve never worked with a union before) why does the union environment prevent her from getting fired or formally reprimanded?

      1. JimmyJab*

        Union contracts have more protections for their members than typical US at will employment, where a company can fire you for anything (excluding protected classes like race, religion, etc.). So, people often equate “harder to fire” with impossible to fire, which isn’t true. But, you often have a union rep involved and advocating on behalf of an employee, and other formal steps may be required before the union contract allows a company to fire an employee.

      2. Gray Lady*

        Thanks for responding everyone.

        Yeah I thought the nonchalant reaction might be unique to this org. The union’s made it so no one can be fired, or to be technical, set the bar so high it is near impossible to jump it. This for example, didn’t rise to the level of formal discipline, and there’d need to be a lot of progressive discipline before firing could be on the table.

        I do like how protected my job is of course, but I don’t plan on swearing at anyone, so it’s unlikely to help me so much. I don’t like how my coworkers, my own subordinates, or even my own boss can’t be fired though.

          1. Gray Lady*

            Well if she worked for me, I’d have as serious a convo as I could about this instance. If she did it again, one day suspension, two day, three day, five day, ten, then we’re looking at a termination.

    5. LadyByTheLake*

      Any place I’ve worked, that kind of comment would get you fired, and I’ve worked places where salty language is the norm. The issue here is that is was directed to a specific person (not okay), who was in a position of power, who was giving a deserved reprimand.

      1. Cordelia*

        Going back a step – how many important meetings will she be allowed to miss before that becomes a disciplinary issue? because surely that means she is not doing what she’s paid to do – is that just accepted as well? Really interested to know what someone has to do to get fired!

      2. Mitzii*

        Yeah, salty language is not necessarily the problem. Using it toward a coworker/superior/underling/client/vendor/fellow human is definitely not acceptable.

    6. Littorally*

      The only way I can imagine it *not* leading to firing in my office is if the swear-er had immediately clapped her hand over her mouth, apologized PROFOUNDLY, offered some really good extenuating circumstances, and groveled a whole hell of a lot. And even then, that might not save her.

  59. Unladen European Swallow*

    Hello! I work in Academia and I have someone returning from maternity leave next week. I’d like assistance in what language to use to tell her that we have identified a need to hire a new Director level role to whom she will report. The thing is, she had just been promoted to an Assoc Dir level role right before she left on her leave. She hasn’t had the opportunity yet to demonstrate how she would do in this level of position, so adding a Director isn’t an indictment on her ability or performance. However, the dean and I agreed that the needs of the school are such that we need a Director with specific skills and experience to lead the team.

    I want to be sensitive to the fact that this person was just recently promoted into a new role (after it became vacant when someone unexpectedly left), then immediately went on maternity leave, and is now coming back to a team that has added members in the meantime. We had a lot of volatility last year. She was hired last year on a 3person team, two members left last spring so she was running solo for awhile and took on a role on an interim basis, helped to hire one person, was officially promoted, then went on maternity leave. I feel like I have to acknowledge all of the shifting personnel issues of the last year, right? She currently reports to me, but in the new structure, she (and others on the team) would be reporting to the new Director.

    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      I think just keep it simple and matter of fact. “We recognize the personnel issues, and to help fix that we need to hire a Director. The Director will also be beneficial A and B reasons, and it’s going to affect your position in X and Y ways. Here’s what the plan is, any input?”.

      Is there some political context that makes this more fraught?

    2. PollyQ*

      I feel like I have to acknowledge all of the shifting personnel issues of the last year, right?

      No? Just tell her “We’ve decided to add a Director role because [reasons].” Unless she’s unusually temperamental, I don’t see why this should be a difficult conversation. It doesn’t sound like she’s been in her job long enough to expect to be considered.

  60. Anon Spouse*

    My spouse is a software developer with ADHD. He’s been in the same job since he graduated college ~5 years ago. He’s applied to other jobs really struggles with the technical assessments that are part of interviewing in his field, particularly if they are timed. He’s practiced them in his free time but he just freezes up when it’s the “real deal.”

    He was diagnosed as a kid but never wanted to be medicated. However, over the last year his executive disfunction has gotten much much worse so he’s finally working on getting medicated, which does not appear to be a short process.

    Now one of the clients he works with regularly is trying to recruit him for their team and of course this comes with a technical assessment. It’s unlikely he’ll be able to be medicated before that stage and he’s so nervous to do the assessment. He’s worried he’ll blow it and not only not get the job but the client will lose confidence in his abilities.

    This client has worked with him for years and seems to really enjoy working with him. I know normally it’d be a terrible idea to disclose his situation but I wonder if there’s some way to mitigate the impact of a crappy performance on the technical assessment.

    I know a lot of tech recruiters read this blog so we’d appreciate any kind of advice y’all have for a software developer with ADHD, especially around timed technical assessments.

    1. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      This is one of many reasons why formal technical assessments suck. (There’s also research on how they disadvantage women and underrepresented minorities and anyone who doesn’t have time to practice timed tests for arbitrary problems, plus the fact that someone’s ability to regurgitate the answer to an arbitrary problem doesn’t actually mean they’ll be a good software developer.) I’m far enough along in my career that I’ve got the flexibility to drop out of the process if someone wants me to, for example, code a bubble sort from scratch without using any external resources.

      Which is a long way of saying that there are companies out there who don’t do rigid timed assessment for software developers. My company is one of them – we ask candidates to explain relevant concepts at a high level rather than writing code from memory.

      Is there any way that this client would be able to waive the technical assessment, since presumably they already have seen his work from his current job? Or possibly modify the assessment in some way to remove the timed component, or allow access to the sort of resources he’d use while on the job (things like StackOverflow, MSDN documentation, or similar resources)?

      1. C0ra*

        How would you explain to the employer why you want those accommodations? I have asked if I could send a previous project instead of doing a new assessment, and it worked very occasionally. But I’m not sure how to ask for things like changing the timing.

      2. Anon Spouse*

        Thanks for the reply. I agree they totally suck, but it seems like most of the jobs he applies for require something…if not an initial screen some kind of exercise.

    2. Filosofickle*

      If there a particular person he has rapport with, I would just lay it without mentioning ADHD: “As you have seen working with me, I produce very strong work and know the technologies inside and out, but unfortunately I am not a good test-taker. Is there any way we can approach the testing process differently so I can demonstrate my skills without the timer?” Many people understand being bad at tests! And they’ve already seen what he does, enough to try to hire him away. Maybe they will work with him to restructure the test or find a substitute, or waive the test.

      2. curiousLemur*

        Yeah, what Filosofickle said. I was coming here to say something like that, maybe about freezing on technical assessments.

  61. Stressed Anon*

    I work with “John” who is senior to me. He was out on medical leave, yet didn’t discuss any work plans with me. I asked, but he said that boss would go over it with us. He gave me a list of things that needed to be done, which I did complete, but that was it. There were no major errors, but I work in the type of place with lots of drama and every little thing causes someone to have a fit. (ie: “This barcode is on the left side when it should be in the middle!” Even though there is nothing to state where the barcode goes! They’re all over the place!)

    When he came back, he was all mad about how things weren’t done a certain way, but how was I supposed to know? He never went over anything. He then complains to the boss. I tried my best given the resources that I had, so what else can I do?

    My workplace is very dysfunctional and everyone works in a silo. They don’t know how to do “team”. I’m so frustrated. Is there any solution to this? Am I naive in thinking that we’re all supposed to be working together? Does that not exist anymore? Has anyone experienced this before?

    1. L in DC*

      You don’t mention if you actually followed up with John’s boss. Assuming you did, I would just say “I checked with [boss] and s/he said it was fine”. If you tried but couldn’t connect with John’s boss for guidance, then say “my attempts to connect with [boss] were unsuccessful, and I knew I had to complete the list but didn’t want to bother you on medical leave, so this is what I did”. If it was the latter, it probably would have been better if you reached out to John first and told him that this was the most you could do with no guidance from [boss].

      Good luck.

    2. PollyQ*

      Your workplace sucks and it (probably) isn’t going to change. Of course people still work together as a team, but apparently not where you work. My recommendation is trying to find a job someplace at least not as dysfunctional, and maybe even (gasp!) functional.

      1. curiousLemur*

        Yeah, this. People who are jerks because you didn’t read their minds are horrible to work for.

  62. beep beep*

    Is there a general professional etiquette to internal job searching? I’m going to be finishing out a big project in December that will give me a good piece of resume achievement, but I’m bored and don’t really like the work I’m doing now, so I want to explore other options (huge company- plenty of options from my skimming internal postings). I’ve been working on my current team for a little less than a year (got moved around in ~February). Should I wait longer? Tell my boss I’m applying first? Not tell my boss at all? This is my first professional job- any help would be much appreciated.

    1. Rayray*

      I’m in a similar situation- like freakishly similar , I think my question is only a few down from yours. I hope we get some advice here!

      Does your company have a job board you can look at to see what you’re interested in? Have you met or talked to other people at the company? In my situation, I briefly met someone in charge of a job I’m interested in and there’s another I’m more interested in but have no idea what the boss is like.

      1. beep beep*

        Oh wow, I just saw that! July 2020 hire here too :) The world is small and odd…

        We do have a job board, but it’s not particularly navigable. I vaguely know people in a lot of places in the company- the nature of my current work- but I’m not incredibly close with anyone in the area I’m interested in (think I do Teapot Design and they’re Teapot QA).

        I’ll see if I can get a coffee with someone on their team to gauge the temperature. We’ll see how it goes!

    2. ThatGirl*

      You should definitely tell your boss if you apply – they’re gonna find out one way or another and it’s a courtesy. Whether you tell them before that is kinda up to you — at my last company I did an internal transfer and gave my manager a heads up first, but I also knew she would understand and be supportive. Not all bosses are.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Yes – our (known) internal practice is to get a preliminary “reference” (for lack of a better word) from an internal applicant’s current manager before interviewing, and I just reached out to an internal applicant’s manager the other day who had not been informed by the applicant that they were applying elsewhere. (Probably because, as it turns out, they had just been put on a PIP.)

    3. JB*

      You absolutely do need to tell your boss. Less than a year is a bit quicker than usual, which makes it even more important.

      Usually the order of operations is: you see an internal posting you’re interested in, you tell your boss you’re applying, then you apply. But in your case, I’d talk to your boss about it now, assuming you have a good rapport. They might have ideas for what positions will use your skillset and be more interesting or challenging for you; they might have hookups in other departments and can help you get a lead in, or know about a position that fits you really well that hasn’t been posted yet. Since you haven’t been at the company very long, their help will be very valuable to you.

      1. beep beep*

        We have an…okay rapport? She and I have always been warm/cordial, but not very close; she leads a large team and I’m rather an odd duck in it. We’ve never met in person (work in entirely different states, and, well, pandemic) but I’ll try to ask her if she thinks there’s anything I might be interested in. One of my current barriers is that I’m not really sure what I *am* interested in/have the skillset for, due to weird circumstances that just kind of threw me into this job without anything but a college diploma and a willingness to learn as I go. I’ve certainly learned a lot, and some of it is: I don’t like this job :P

    4. Annony*

      Is there any chance of expanding the role you are in now to make it more interesting/challenging? If so, talking to your boss about that could be a good first step. Then she will know you are not entirely satisfied and won’t be as surprised when you do ask about changing roles. I know at my company they have a policy against internal transfers if you have been there for less than a year so you may need to tick down the clock anyway.

  63. MissBaudelaire*

    I started a supervisor role a few months ago. Since then, we’ve had new trainees onboard. I was partially responsible for one trainee.

    She hired in full time, open availability (we work remotely), then two weeks into training cut some days she was available. That was fine, we worked with that. Then she approached me and said working two days in a row was too much for her, so she wanted to switch to working Wednesday and Friday instead of Thursday and Friday. But, because she also still had another job, she’d need to leave promptly at four o clock. We work in healthcare, and she’d be leaving a clinic early, leaving the physician without someone in this role. She was upset when I said that wasn’t going to be an option, and working the clinic meant you were expected to work the whole clinic. She could change her availability to not work on Thursday, if she’d like, and only work one day a week, but there was no other clinic on Wednesday for her to take.

    She also missed a training day because she didn’t read her schedule and ignored her email all day.

    She emailed me Monday, announcing that her child was visiting from college, and so she would be unable to work her Thursday clinic. She said she was not able to tell her other job that she couldn’t work to visit her child, and so Thursday was just the only day she had.

    My company policy is that if it is not an emergency (illness, family illness, something unforeseen), you are responsible for finding coverage for your clinic. I don’t agree with the policy necessarily, and I am working to change it. The policy states if you cannot find coverage, you are responsible for your clinic as scheduled. Schedules are written a month in advance.

    She wrote back an email that she was surprised I said that, given that I had messed up her training schedule so badly and she didn’t get to choose, and that I had caused her to miss out on opportunities. I didn’t mess up her schedule, and the only things she missed out on were the days she couldn’t be bothered to check her schedule or email. I ignored the email, and she found coverage and got Thursday off.

    Generally, I believe that PTO is PTO, which she doesn’t actually earn as a part time employee (something else I’m working to change). It isn’t a gift, and it isn’t a request, it’s a warning to your employer that you won’t be in that day. And had it been an emergency that say, her daughter had to have a sudden surgery, it would have been different. In my job, you get to choose your availability, not choose if you’re going to work when you’re scheduled. I can’t pull coverage out of the sky, and the department is understaffed. That isn’t her fault or her problem, of course.

    Am I the jerk here?

    1. L. Ron Jeremy*

      If you’re asking the question, you most likely know the answer.

      But you’re not a jerk.

    2. BayCay*

      I don’t think you’re the jerk here. I don’t really think she’s a jerk either, maybe just a tad forgetful and upset that she doesn’t have as much flexibility as she’d like. But if the schedule is given a month in advance, that gives enough time for people to arrange for most situations. Definitely including college visits from kids.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I do think she’s a jerk – she may be forgetful but she’s blaming the OP for things under her own control (checking her email, being aware of scheduling challenges). It also sounds like she’s supposed to be full time at this job but giving more attention to her other job and her personal schedule. This doesn’t have to be a deal-breaker but the way she’s handling it probably is. Overall it sounds like she’s not taking this job very seriously, which is not a good sign so early in her employment.

    3. WellRed*

      She’s not going to work out. She just started, she’s already trying to change up her hours, ANNOUNCED she couldn’t work due to visiting child, not taking responsibility for herself and BLAMING others. Stop wasting time and money and cut her loose.

      1. MissGirl*

        Yep, this is a job that needs consistent coverage and she can’t offer that. She’s not reliable and is blaming you.

    4. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      No, you’re not.

      That said, I don’t think that’s the most important question. The more important question is, will this employer-employee relationship work?

      All signs are pointing to “No”, from what you’ve written. And that’s one lf the hard parts of being a supervisor, recognizing that, having a conversation (i.e., “This is what we need from this position. Can you do that or should we discuss a transition plan to end your employment?”), and then following through.

  64. Not Your Mother's Principal*

    I have announced my coming retirement in May. (I work in education.) I’m actually ready to go yesterday. (Thanks, COVID!) I would typically fill down times with continuing education, developing my job skills, etc. That seems like a waste of resources now, and frankly, I’d rather plan post-retirement activities. How do I stay motivated and engaged outside of my direct job duties (which I still enjoy) while I’m at work? I can only read AAM for so long each day.

    1. Bobina*

      Start planning your handover? I often quite find tidying up old stuff, writing down lots of manuals, capturing all the “how-to” stuff that you might not think you know but actually do can be quite fun and take up a lot of time.

      Maybe do some networking (in case you ever want to do contract work, or just stay in touch with people) or some (informal) mentoring to people who will be left behind about things you’ve learnt over time?

      1. Anonymous Luddite*

        So much this.

        My company just had three 40-year veterans retire in 2021. The amount of scrambling to capture tribal knowledge was unreal.

    2. JB*

      Are there any resources you can prepare to leave behind for your department/the next person in your roll?

      Maybe a newbie in your department who could benefit from some mentorship?

    3. Not Your Mother's Principal*

      Thanks all. I have started a file, a calendar, tons of notes and attachments, etc. Some specific mentoring will be a good addition. The plan is to hire my replacement soon for just that purpose. Until then, I’m twiddling my thumbs. And reading AAM.

    4. PollyQ*

      Have you accumulated a lot of physical stuff? Going through it bit by bit is likely to be easier than one massive push at the end of the year. Are there parts of your job that would benefit from extra attention? I totally get that you might not have wanted to make more of a committment, but now that it’s just for a few more months, perhaps that a space you could put your energy? And let’s be real, as long as you’re getting your required work done, it’s not the end of the world if you’re spending some time thinking about & planning your retirement.

    5. Girasol*

      If useful work runs out before your notice period ends, see if you can use vacation for all but the last day.

  65. Rayray*

    Any advice for approaching your manager about moving on from your role but staying in the company?

    I started at this company in July 2020 and quickly realized that my role wasn’t one I’d want long term. I got offered a sideways move which I started in May and to be honest in this role, there is zero upward mobility and I don’t really like it that much. Just yesterday at lunch someone invited me to join their group, it’s a random group that just eats together once a week. We talked a bit about how people do move around in this company quite a bit and I was kinda interested in doing the same. I realized after that one woman is actually the boss over an open position I might be interested in. There’s another role I am interested in too. I’m trying to think how I could talk to my boss about this but not burn bridges or put a target on my back.

    For context, I was approached about my current role because they were rebuilding the team after some drama and an almost complete turnover of the last team. I am doing my best to help better things here but I know I just don’t love what I do. It’s fine, but it’s not something I want to do long term. Also, I can tell others feel the same as me so I’d kinda like to maybe get out before everyone else tries to move within cause I know some of
    Them want to.

    1. Rayray*

      Update – just looked at the other role I’m interested in and looks like this woman is actually the recruiter! I am wondering if I should email for more info and then approach my manager next week when she’s back from vacation.

      1. JB*

        Yes, I’d say do that.

        Keep in mind that two moves in short succession like that CAN make people start to look more closely at you, so make sure this is a role you really want (within reason, of course – I assume you’re not psychic – but have a good talk with the recruiter and maybe even someone currently on that team if you can).

        1. Rayray*

          Yeah for sure, that’s why I’m a little apprehensive but to be fair, my last move wasn’t one I actually asked for – my former and current approached me about it (same department). I accepted mostly for the pay raise and also thinking if I turned it down, they’d be less keen to help me move around the company later. It was a sideways move – literally I sit maybe 20 feet from where I did before and see all the same people every day.

  66. AnonymooseToday*

    I feel like I finally got the right job interview at the wrong time.

    I’ve been job searching for years, want to find a good fit. My salary has sucked but the benefits (especially health insurance [chronic condition]) have been great. I finally found a good job posting, benefits looked good plus non-tenure track (no desire to be forced to publish/present unless I want to). I got invited for a second in-person interview…except I just accepted a promotion at my current job. A little more money (still kinda sucks but with breathing room), will give me great experience that I’ve been lacking, so I know I can move on to a good job in a couple years.

    I was all ready to still do the second interview but there were so many yellow flags during the first interview and arranging the second interview (out of my state), that I’m already over it and pretty sure I’m going to bow out. If it wasn’t for the pandemic I know I would probably still do it, but yellow flags + pandemic travel (high risk) + vacation days used around the holidays + expense of boarding my dog + promotion at work, make it all seem exhausting.

    Just such a bummer especially because of the prestige of the place but I know once I cancel I’ll probably feel relieved. Right job interview, definite wrong time.

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      You can back out by saying “after i applied to your company, I was promoted, so am withdrawing my application to focus on my new role.”
      How can they complain?
      Because it sounds like you’re really excited by this other company, maybe add “I hope you’ll consider me if another opportunity comes up in (x or y) years.”

  67. Program Evaluation*

    Anyone else work in nonprofit program evaluation? What is your sense of the state of the field?

    I transitioned to this field partly because it seemed like it was growing a ton. And it is, technically, in that a lot of nonprofits are creating new program evaluation roles. But the salaries I’m seeing for these jobs suck. In my opinion, program evaluation is at least partly technical and requires some serious data skills (at least, unless the org has another serious data person-which in many cases, I doubt) and yet (in Philly) I keep seeing salaries of 40-50k. What on earth? I even saw one job for a consulting firm that required 25% travel and technical skills beyond my own, and the pay was 65. The hell?!

    Anyway, I know this is kind of niche, but I’m wondering if anyone has any additional experience or insight.

    1. it happens*

      No good info for you, but strong commiseration. Everyone _wants_ evaluation, but no one will pay for it. And by no one, I mean funders. They require impact reports, but don’t grant the indirect costs or the direct costs to actually pay for the work needed to design and complete them. And it’s not sexy for individual donors.
      Thank you for doing the work, lots of people appreciate it, and sorry that it’s not very lucrative.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        ALL OF THIS.

        I managed, though I was overworked/underpaid, because I had a hybrid role between data manager, impact analyst, IT person, and project manager.

        /Eye roll

        1. Program Evaluation*

          Literally same, lol. I actually get paid okay at my current role because I do all those things, but I’m trying to leave bc uh, it turns out we don’t have good outcomes and no one’s willing to make the changes to improve our programs.

      2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Oh, forgot to add: Non-profit leaders, code program evaluation as “programmatic expenses/staff”, because a good impact evaluation should be integrated into your program from the start, not tacked on as an after-thought. Impact measurements strengthen your programs, because it forces you to think, “What is our program goal? How will we know we’ve succeeded and how do we prove and measure that change?”

        1. Program Evaluation*

          Yeah, I’m considered admin/overhead, which is ridiculous. I’m way more involved in programming than finance or HR or whatever.

          1. misspiggy*

            I’d suggest looking for a role in a specialist consultancy that does independent evaluations for these types of programmes. In my part of the nonprofit world, the endline and often midline evaluations are carried out by independent agencies, who charge big bucks and are included in the programme budget.

  68. Bloopmaster*

    tl;dr: How much flexibility is reasonable when commuting is legitimately terrible but in-office coverage is essential?

    I have a subordinate whose job requires her to provide coverage during set hours. She has a history of not being on time, and honestly, I should have cracked down harder on this in the past because it is very disruptive when she’s not at her post by the assigned time. That part is absolutely my fault. Finally, about a month ago I had a sit down with her to let her know that being late (for non-emergency situations, of course) was not acceptable and that I would need to start seeing consistent timeliness from her if this job was going to work out. Her punctuality did improve briefly. However, in the past few weeks her primary transportation option has been beset with huge issues (it’s the DC Meto…) and her other real option (ride shares) is still suffering from lack of drivers and long waits. As a result she is once again having trouble getting here on time and will often text me (usually after her assigned start time…) about where she is and how long she’s been waiting for her train/car.

    I get that this is a difficult time to be commuting in our area, but we also have a business need for her to be on time. As someone trying to be reasonable manager, what is the best way to proceed? Is it better to inform her that she needs to potentially allow 45-60 extra minutes in the morning and still get here on time? Or to assign morning coverage to someone else and permanently reduce her hours (even potentially eliminate her position, since it was created largely to provide early morning coverage)? Do I give her a choice? Do I suck it up and hope things get better soon? Something else? Help.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      If her role is to provide coverage, and she was hired to provide early morning coverage, I think it’s fair to tell her that. And to explain that if she can’t find a way to get to work by x:00 every morning (and yes, that might mean taking a train that is theoretically an hour earlier than she needs to be there), you’ll either have to reassign her (giving her fewer hours) or replace her altogether.

    2. Reba*

      Oof, yeah, the Metro situation has been gnarly. I guess due to that extraordinary circumstance, you haven’t really had the chance to see if the recent improvement was going to stick.

      I think one thing that is immediately correctable is texting you after her workday is supposed to have begun… that’s rude IMO, I think it’s usually possible to know you are *going* to be late before you are actually late-late.

      Is assigning the coverage to someone else or switching her working hours really possible? Is there a later coverage shift where it’s not so critical for her to be prompt? If yes, I’d explore those possibilities with her. But yeah, go into it assuming that this morning shift is not going to work out and you need to move her off of it.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      The current Metro issue is a problem – even some of my best employees have been challenged to get to work on time lately. You note that her punctuality did improve briefly. Was it already starting to erode when Metro had to pull cars out of service? If not, I’d give her one more chance. If it was, I’d assign morning coverage to someone else. With regard to what happens to her, talk to her about whether she prefers reduced hours (may not work for her if she doesn’t make enough to cover rent) or to just end her employment.

    4. Anonymous Luddite*

      Learn from my/my bosses fail: (Warning: Vent mode)
      This was a huge frustration when I first moved to my area. (Short version: I didn’t own a car and the bus options were: 45 minutes early, 15 minutes early, or 15 minutes late.) I went the rounds with my boss who insisted I be there on time. She insisted I come to work 45 minutes early every day to avoid the possibility of being late. I asked what was I to do during that 45 minutes? She said I couldn’t punch in early because my hours were X to Y and I wasn’t allowed overtime, so my motivation to sit on my thumb for 45 minutes was nil.

      It came to a head when she put me on report on Halloween: If I was late once more in 90 days, I would be fired.
      I tried to buy a car. The financial institution I was working for turned down my used car loan because I was on report. I bought it in a different manner (thank you, mom.)

      Everything was perfect from November 1 until late January (right before my 90 window closed.) I’d flown home and was delayed at airport security (this was January 2002 – airport security was a little tight.) I called boss and said I’d missed the flight and would be in late. I was fired the next day. I will note that I asked the boss and she admitted that had I called in and said “I’m sick” she would not have fired me.

      TL;DR – cut her some slack. Transit is transit. She’s not driving the train.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        But did your role require you to provide coverage? Was someone else unable to go home (and possibly paid overtime) because you were late? If not, it’s not really comparable. And if someone else is waiting for this person to show up, “cutting her some slack” means completely dismissing *their* needs.

        1. Anonymous Luddite*

          It was coverage of one half of a two-person department a financial institution, first thing in a bank’s morning (read: 9am). My being late meant my co-worker had to hold down the fort for 15 minutes, which more often than not meant he had to wait 15 minutes for his second cup of coffee.

    5. SemiAnon*

      Speaking as a long time big city transit user, I think you split the difference.

      If she is routinely showing up late because of transit, that means that, effectively, her commute time has increased, so she needs to leave the house earlier in the morning to get to work. So she probably does need to leave 45 minutes earlier. On your part, you provide somewhere she can sit and have a coffee or read a book on the days when she arrives early, and are understanding when the traffic is really extra horrible, and leaving 45 minutes earlier isn’t enough. In statistical terms, she’s responsible for the one sigma events, and you’re understanding about for the three sigma events. :-)

  69. AnonymooseToday*

    I feel like I finally got the right job interview at the wrong time.

    I’ve been job searching for years, want to find a good fit. My salary has sucked but the benefits (especially health insurance [chronic condition]) have been great. I finally found a good job posting, benefits looked good plus non-tenure track (no desire to be forced to publish/present unless I want to). I got invited for a second in-person interview…except I just accepted a promotion at my current job. A little more money (still kinda sucks but with breathing room), will give me great experience that I’ve been lacking, so I know I can move on to a good job in a couple years.

    I was all ready to still do the second interview but there were so many yellow flags during the first interview and arranging the second interview (out of my state), that I’m already over it and pretty sure I’m going to bow out. If it wasn’t for the pandemic I know I would probably still do it, but yellow flags + pandemic travel (high risk) + vacation days used around the holidays + expense of boarding my dog + promotion at work, make it all seem exhausting.

    Just such a bummer especially because of the prestige of the place but I know once I cancel I’ll probably feel relieved. Right job interview, definite wrong time.

    (Plus it always feel like I keep finding good jobs more North, where I’d have to move North in the middle of winter. SO annoying, lol.)

    1. PrairieEffingDawn*

      Maybe since you’re already pretty sure you’re going to back out, you wouldn’t have much to lose by asking if the second round interview could be done over Zoom? The only reason I might discourage this is if you definitely think you’d want to interview with this org again down the road. In that case it might be better to say you are pursuing a different opportunity.

      I’ve turned down plenty of jobs for the timing. It won’t be the only attractive opportunity that comes your way.

    2. PollyQ*

      Is it the right interview, though? I would think the “many yellow flags” would knock it down to “eh, maybe the right interview” at best, no?

  70. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

    I will soon be promoted, which will include taking over the supervision of the office staff. How do you navigate the transition from peer to supervisor? Also, while I have managed student workers for years, this will be my first time managing full-time staff. What advice/tips do you have?

    1. Mental Lentil*

      Congratulations!

      Please understand that the nature of your personal relationships with the office staff will change. You can no longer have lunch with just one or two others, and you can’t expect gifts from them. You’ll have to be careful how you allocate tasks, because if you’ve been naturally closer to one or two of them as coworkers, it may be viewed as favoritism if you give them a fun or easy task.

      Try to be as transparent as possible in all your decision-making.

    2. L. Ron Jeremy*

      You now need to treat everyone the same and you should communicate this to your team in their 1-on-1s with you asap.

      No more work buddies, but direct reports.

  71. Midwestern Ennui*

    Just realized I sent an interview schedule email with a typo (comma instead of a period.) Considering walking in to the sea. Sigh.

    1. shakiras stolen purse*

      Don’t worry — the person scheduling the interview is probably a junior coordinator who won’t care. Just proof-read your thank you email!

      1. Midwestern Ennui*

        It’s with a small non-profit so it’s very possible I’ll be interviewing with the person I sent the email to. I hope she just looks at the dates/times and doesn’t get too in the weeds. Should I mention it during the interview or is that just Too Much?

        2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Let it go :) I wouldn’t even notice the difference unless I practically climbed on my desk and jammed my face right up to my monitor, so I sure wouldn’t hold it against you :) But if you call it out, then I couldn’t help but notice it.

    2. MissGirl*

      I once sent in a resume with the words, “a editor,” to a job as an editor. I got the job. I didn’t mention it but I did hand them a new resume the second I walked in to the interview.

    3. BayCay*

      I wouldn’t worry too much about this; that’s a fairly common typo and one that most people won’t even notice since they look very similar when typed,

      (heh heh)

      1. Midwestern Ennui*

        I just got back from therapy and we figured out the reason this spun me out is because when I was a kid my mother, who was a manager for a long time, told me that she automatically THREW AWAY resumes with misspellings. I’m sure in her own way she was trying to emphasize to me how important proofreading is but instead she created a neurosis…

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          The only resume I have ever put aside for a typo was the person who was applying for an editorial position at a publishing house who listed their current job as “poofreader” (sic).
          You’re fine with the comma. I do like the idea of bringing in a corrected copy to hand to the interviewer, on the off-chance that the interviewer had noticed it.

    4. Spellcheck doesn’t catch everything*

      Well I’m sorry. At least you didn’t send a cover letter the the Pubic Health Foundation. BTW spellcheck is fine with this. It’s a word. Public. Public. Public. I wanted to walk into the sea. I feel you!

  72. shakiras stolen purse*

    Assuming my performance review goes well — which it should — I expect a minimum five percent raise. Can I say, when asking for a raise, that if I get less than a 5% raise I will see it as a pay-cut? (Because it is; inflation was 5%!)

    It’s not like the company is so strapped, either. They’re large, value is increasing, and they had enough money to make an all-cash purchase of another company this year. If they had enough money to do that they have enough money to match inflation.

    I won’t say this, but the truth is, if I get a less than 5% raise I will start applying to other jobs. And my team is understaffed as-is.

    1. Reba*

      Welllllll you could ask, how are raises being calculated this year, taking into account inflation/cost of living having risen? It might help to draw a distinction between a COL increase and a merit-based raise.

    2. pancakes*

      I don’t have advice, sorry, but I think that’s a reasonable thing to want and your user name made me laugh. The image of wild boars running off with it is too funny!

    3. RagingADHD*

      I certainly wouldn’t open with that or word ot that way, but if they aren’t responsive to a reasonable request, it makes sense to point out the inflation rate and its effect on your real wage.

  73. FloridaResident*

    Are these bad reasons to be looking for another job? A couple weeks ago, something happened that tipped me over the edge that I just want to exit my job ASAP. Up until that point, I was relatively happy, because my employer is a wonderful place to work for.

    Here are the reasons why:

    1. I currently have to go in the office once a week. My boss, along with two other coworkers, doesn’t have to. In fact, my boss and one other coworker don’t even live in the geographical area anymore. One other coworker does, but that is by choice. I don’t do it by choice. Pre-COVID, this wasn’t an issue, since everyone had to go into the office every day. But it has been boiling over since COVID took over. As a result, I am stuck doing all the administrative duties, since we laid off our administrative assistant at the start of the pandemic, and always have to deal with a pile of mail on my desk whenever I go in. Also, it is over 50 miles one way, and I am not happy about wasting the most gas when nobody else has to. The coworker who comes in only lives 10 miles away.

    2. I and the clerk are paid hourly. No biggie, but the three other employees are not. It makes me feel like I am at a lower level than I really am at. Plus, my pay is the second lowest, and I have to waste the most gas. That, in turn, feels like a double whammy to me.

    3. A few weeks ago, one employee got promoted and is now my boss. This is what tipped me over the edge. It has nothing to do with my performance; in fact, I have gotten nothing but stellar reviews since I started. But it still left a bitter taste in my mouth. One other employee got promoted to another senior role, but it was unrelated. Still, that coincidence just further made my mentality worse. I feel like I am just falling behind in my career because of it.

    4. I am not doing everything at my job that I want to career-wise. I feel like #3 above was a wake-up call for me.

    Since then, I have been job searching, and I stick by one rule. If anything happens at work that I am not happy about, I am to apply to AT LEAST 3 JOBS – NO IFS, ANDS, OR BUTS. I have had at least 20 interviews already, all phone or virtual, and am being patient because I know it takes time. But I find myself slowly drifting from my job because of reason #3. I know it is a terrible attitude to have, but I am really not happy anymore and I feel like I am just forcing myself at this point. How should I properly and professionally handle this until I receive a job offer? And is this the wrong reason to be job searching?

    And no, I am not planning to quit on the spot. I will give two weeks’ notice and be mature about this. However, I am still a bit upset about the whole thing.

    1. ecnaseener*

      Well, I don’t think there’s ever a wrong reason to be job-searching. You don’t have to be sufficiently grieved in order to leave a job, people leave just because they found something better all the time.

      As for whether you’re likely to solve these problems by finding a new job: Possibly. You can probably find a fully-remote job if you want one, or a job where everyone is going into the office the same amount. The long commute and low pay, you can possibly find better pay and less/no commute. (These are separate factors by the way — from your wording it sort of sounds like you expect your pay to reflect the amount of gas you use, and that’s not going to happen.) Wanting a promotion / advancement: lots of people job-hunt for exactly that reason.

    2. JB*

      It sounds like you might do better in a larger, more corporate environment, where everyone in a role is treated roughly the same and expectations/upward mobility is clearly laid out. Maybe target those kinds of positions in particular.

    3. Rich or Poor...*

      Honestly, any one of those would have me considering a new employer. But all of them combined? Definitely NOT the wrong reason to job-hunt!

      1. FloridaResident*

        Good point. Maybe I am overthinking it. My plan is to stick it out until I get an offer, so I will stick around until it happens.

    4. RagingADHD*

      The right reason to be job searching is that you aren’t satisfied with some aspect of your job and/or think you can do better. That’s it. You don’t need complex justifications, because you don’t owe your job anything except honest work in exchange for the money (and general courtesy).

      I’m curious about being paid hourly. Are you sure that’s not benefitting you? Unless you got a substantial raise, going on salary can often mean losing money because they don’t have to pay overtime. Make sure you’re looking at total compensation, benefits, and total work time, not just the hourly/salary status.

      As far as attitude, you don’t have to be happy or pretend to be happy. You just have to be courteous and generally pleasant to work with. You can feel however you want, so don’t worry about your feelings. Courtesy is behavior, not feelings.

      1. FloridaResident*

        I agree. I haven’t showed my feelings about this at all, so everyone still thinks I am happy. As long as I remain professional nothing should happen.

    5. WellRed*

      I feel like a lot if what you’re complaining about is not relevant to your actual job. It’s not my fault if my coworker who lives further away “wastes” more on gas. Maybe I “waste” more on rent because it’s more expensive to live closer. I suspect you are simply burnt out on the role and having trouble figuring out how to move forward from here.

      1. FloridaResident*

        To be clear, my employer is in Miami, and I live in a close suburb. My boss moved to Orlando last year to be closer to his parents (he was born and raised in the Orlando area), and one of my coworker moved to Mississippi for whatever reason, but I didn’t ask why since it is none of my business. So it is not possible they can commute.

        Yeah, I am burnt out, but I am not just sitting around whining about it waiting for magic to happen. I have been job searching and will continue to do so until I get a better offer.

        1. WellRed*

          That’s the best thing then, to job search. Maybe take some time off too, if you can, even just a random day here and there.

  74. ecnaseener*

    When you get a cold message from a recruiter asking for some times you’re available to talk, are you supposed to give them a bunch of times over the next few business days? Your generally-consistent weekly availability? Weekends?

    I’m just wondering because a few weeks ago I gave the next few business days (twice actually, because the recruiter went on vacation and came back to ask for more times) and then never heard anything. Was I supposed to give more than that?

    I’m not torn up about it since I’m not actually looking to change jobs, just wondering.

    1. ThatGirl*

      No, they just sound flaky which is not unusual for recruiters. If someone asked me that today, I’d say “I’m generally open in the mornings next week, except for Tuesday after 10” or something similar and leave it at that.

    2. CW*

      This has happened to me many times. And even if I am searching, more often than not I find myself ghosted shortly afterwards. Sometimes, I get a message on LinkedIn, and then…ghost. It is really annoying. If I am not ghosted, I would think about it before saying yes or no.

      If you are not job-searching, and don’t want to connect, I would politely say that I am not interested. However, I am willing to hear more about an opportunity if it sounds like something I would like to do.

      1. ecnaseener*

        Thanks! I was interested in hearing about it even though I’m not actively job-hunting – but not interested enough to chase her down. (Frankly, also not interested enough to take an unscheduled call either if she doesn’t let me know roughly when she’s calling.)

    3. T. Boone Pickens*

      You handled it just fine. You provided a handful of times that you’re available, the onus is on the recruiter to use that info and drill down to a specific time.

      1. ecnaseener*

        LOL imagine being such a big shot that recruiters give you unsolicited massages just to get a foot in the door!

  75. TalkToMeInstead*

    I’m in a situation that I’m not sure how to handle without harming myself politically. I was told that in the weekly Managers-and-above (M+) meeting for my dept, they expressed a desire to get to know the rest of the departmental employees better. With all of us WFH, that gives little opportunity to get to know people on other teams, so I totally get it! The way they decided they would do this is to randomly draw the name of an employee during the meeting (only M+ are in attendance) and the employee’s manager has to say something about the employee. Now, I’m totally comfortable with making the social connections with people who want to get to know me! I’m uncomfortable with how this is being done – in an M+ only meeting and the person being talked about isn’t present. I’d really like to request that my name NOT be added to the list, but I’m afraid it might damage me politically. Does anyone have any advice?

    1. ecnaseener*

      Idk if you can be excluded entirely, but can you talk to your manager about what you’d like her to say?

    2. Anonymous Koala*

      Instead of asking not to be drawn, I’d go to your manager, explain that you heard about the new initiative, and offer to send them 3-4 facts to share about you at the M+ meeting. Your manager will probably be happy that they don’t have to come up with something on the spot, and you’ll get to control the narrative.

      1. TalkToMeInstead*

        My manager did reach out to me to ask what I’d like them to say about me, so there’s at least that. I have a feeling that this is what I’ll end up having to do. I’ll pick a few generic, work-related factoids and then get to know them better when we’re all back in the office (ETA TBD).

        1. JB*

          I’d pick one work-related fact and one ‘fun’ fact (a hobby or etc.) It sounds like that’s more what they’re after.

          It is weird though, I’d be uncomfortable with this too but not sure it’s worth pushing back on.

    3. MissGirl*

      I’m not sure I understand your fears. Managers are going to talk about their reports without them being present all the time; you just don’t know about it. I would go with the other suggestions and offer up a few facts. I think it would come off as odd to ask your manager not to speak about you.

  76. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

    How do you balance your self against your team?

    A recent job change allowed me to join a team doing the work I’ve wanted to do since graduation. The complication is that my education and training 18+ years ago set me up with a different skill base to start from, and over those 18 years, my skills evolved in a different direction than the one the team moves in. (If it makes things clearer, a Linux programmer used to procedural KNF Snake_Case joining a Windows team using object-oriented Allman camelCase). When I stick to what I’m familiar with, I can match anyone else on the team for productivity, but I still out like … well, me.

    The first round of feedback I did well with. This second round is proving a lot harder, as it’s hitting the legibility of my code to myself very hard. Some of the rules/guidelines are so arbitrary and I think have done more harm than good over the years.

    I don’t want to dig in my heels and stick to my guns fully because I know that’ll end poorly, and I want this role to work.

    Has anyone else faced that dilemma (balancing what works for you against a team’s standards) and found a good modus vivendi to achieve that balance?

    1. Donkey Hotey*

      I can’t reply directly, as yo no hablo codespeak.

      But you are one of my favorite commenters so I will say “you adapted once. Based on your comments previously, I have no doubt in my mind you can adapt again.”

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        I can’t reply directly, as yo no hablo codespeak.

        It’s ironic that you preface your comments that way, because a big part of my personal definition of better is that lay folk can read the code. Maybe they can’t update or adapt it, but the less coaching required to read it, the better the code is.

        1. PollyQ*

          As a fellow programmer, I think your general standard is a good, but it doesn’t actually matter what you or I think. If this company/team/language uses a specific format, you need to use that too. Perhaps the balance can come with the specific words you’re using, rather than the form they take. I suspect you’ll get used to the new standard pretty quickly, so my advice is to tell your brain that this is how it is now.

          1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

            The codebase is a menagerie of styles and languages–a true jungle, testament to the turnover and brain drain I’ve witnessed over my decade here, trying to break in. My multilingualism is actually a strength here. There’s stuff in the vault that makes my modus operandi look downright mainstream. I’m mostly trying to process feedback from the team lead that it would seem only he fully follows.

            When it comes to code, I’m a straight up hippie and a relic of the hacker era. Code wants to be free and style is mostly syntactic sugar. Just being in an environment where those beliefs are not mainstream is an adjustment.

            1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

              The code base is a menagerie of styles and languages–a true jungle, testament to the turnover and brain drain I’ve witnessed over my decade here, trying to break in. My multilingualism is actually a strength here. There’s stuff in the vault that makes my modus operandi look downright mainstream. I’m mostly trying to process feedback from the team lead that it would seem only he fully follows.

              With a fair night’s sleep, I recognize these as rationalizations.

              The issue at hand is that camelCase and excessive function calls impair my ability to read, understand, and digest my own code, which is going to increase the chances of my introducing errors into the code base, and where do the the needs of my team (standardization) meet the needs of my self (quality, productivity, motivation).

    2. Software Dev*

      Oh god code legibility and what “good” code is is such a nightmare to navigate (and yes often completely arbitrary). Is any of this stuff that can be fixed by automatically running a linter or something? Making a script your IDE can run?

      Otherwise I would push back on the stuff that is the most arbitrary and ask for reasoning but still make the changes for now. The longer you are with the team the more power you will have.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        Making a script your IDE can run?

        I’m still learning Visual Studio–I learned C before it was even released. I think it might be possible based on stuff I’ve seen, at least to take KNF and return it to Allman.

  77. brightbetween*

    The question this morning about a for-profit company asking for volunteer drivers from a non-profit reminded me of a thread I saw in an online forum recently. It was a popular hobby forum, and was about small, sometimes one-person businesses that produce products for the hobby using enthusiasts/friends to help with sales at an event (staffing a booth at a festival for example) and “paying” them in product and/or tickets to said event. I’m assuming this falls under the “not legal, but probably won’t get noticed” category, but what does everyone think about the practice? Most of the people in the forum said they like doing it and are happy when opportunities came up.

    1. NJ Worker*

      There’s some discussion of this in the quilting/sewing community, where the use of unpaid pattern testers is standard. There’s no law about it, but it’s contradictory with the “creative people should get paid for their work’ ethic. How do you decide that the pattern creator gets compensated through sales, and the pattern testers maybe get some free fabric or a discount?

      1. RagingADHD*

        That strikes me as closer to being a beta reader or an advance reviewer for a book, than being an employee or contractor. Sometimes beta readers are paid, but more often not. Generally getting an early look at the book and/or a free copy is considered a fair tradeoff.

    2. I knew you were truffle when you walked in*

      It’s about de minimus – such that the value is not significant enough to be considered income and n general, considering its value and the frequency with which it is provided, is so small as to make accounting for it unreasonable or impractical. Many CPA’s and financial people consider that limit to be $25.

      1. brightbetween*

        That’s a pretty low bar, though. Minimum wage where I am is $14/hr so if someone works for 2 hours at a festival booth, they are exceeding that.

    3. Buni*

      In my job we have visiting sorta-contractors who often ask office-me to do little bits on the side – make a stack of copies, 5 minute phone calls, drop stuff in our post bag.

      I make it quite clear that I accept payment in all known forms of Cadbury.

    4. PollyQ*

      IANAL, but it might be legal. In the US, there’s no federal minimum wage for freelancers, although states may regulate things differently.

  78. Callie*

    Math question here! Does anyone know how to calculate what a monetary increase is as a percentage increase? E.g. a salary of 28,000 increases to 31,000 – what percentage increase is that? I’m awful at math and don’t know how to do the sum. Thanks!

    1. ThatGirl*

      If you don’t need a precise number, divide the larger number by the smaller number – in this case 31/28 is roughly 1.1 — so it’s a hair over a 1% raise.

      1. CaviaPorcellus*

        That doesn’t add up. You have to multiply by 100 to get the percentage, so it’s a hair over a 10% raise.

      1. Countess of Upstairs Downstairs*

        Yup – 10.7143% increase, according to the online Percentage Increase Calculator.

        I’m very lazy with stuff like this – If you googled “Percentage increase calculator,” you’ll find multiple calculators where you can input the initial value and final value, hit “calculate,” and it gives you the answer.

    6. TiffIf*

      Formula for future reference:
      New salary (N) minus old (O) salary=difference
      Difference divided by old salary*100=percent
      ((N-O)/O)*100

      1. ThatGirl*

        You can just divide the new salary by the old salary and multiple by 100 – no need to find the difference first.

        1. Mental Lentil*

          I’m afraid not. 31,000 divided by 28,000 equals 1.10714.

          1.10714 times 100 equals 110.714%. This means that the new salary is 110.714% of the old one. But to get to the amount of the increase, you have to remember to subtract the original salary amount of 100%.

          110.714% – 100% equals a 10.714% increase.

          You have to subtract out the original salary at some point, either before you divide, or after, to get the percentage increase.

          1. ThatGirl*

            Can you tell math is not really my thing either :) (To be fair, I normally calculate raises by figuring out, like, “10% of 30k is 3,000, so if I get a 1500 raise that’s 5%…)

        2. Koala dreams*

          Yes and no. That will answer the question of how many percent is new salary of old salary. If you divide 31000 with 28000 you will get 110.71 %. The increase is only 10.71 %. The 100 % refer to the old 28000.

    8. Lord Peter Wimsey*

      Quick formula for percent change is: new # divided by old #, minus 1, times 100. So using your example, 31k (new) divided by 28k (old) = 1.107, minus one = 0.107, times 100 = 10.7%.
      Or google ‘percent change calculator’ and there are sites where you just plug in the new & old numbers and it does the math for you.

    10. Not A Manager*

      You can set this up by saying the sentence in words:

      3,000 is what percent of 28,000?

      “What” is your variable, x. “Is” is an equals sign. “Of” is multiplication. “Percent” is /100. So you set it up as follows: 3000 is (=) what (x) percent (/100) of (*) 28000?

      3000=(x/100)*28000
      3000=(28000*x)/100
      3000=280*x
      x=3000/280
      x=10.7%

      We can check this by using common sense. 10% of 28,000 is 2,800 because we just move the decimal. So 3,000 would be slightly more than a 10% raise.

    11. JB*

      I calculate percentage increase/decrease in income as part of my job. This is how you do it:

      (New amount – old amount) / old amount

      So we’ve got 31k – 28k = 3k. Divide that by 28k to get 10.7% (or round up to 11%).

      If it makes things easier, you can knock all the zeros off as well. (31-28) / 3 will give you the same result.

  79. Anon Librarian*

    I have my MSLIS, but have never worked as a librarian. I’ve mainly worked a little in records management, documentation management, etc. I have experience with library databases, but not with SQL or anything like that. I’m looking for a new position, but am not sure what/where to look.

    Any librarians/people with an MSLIS/anyone that went into alternative careers not in a library?

    1. Stapler!*

      I have an MSLIS and have never *not* worked in a library! :-)

      I bet you’d be able to get into libraries if you wanted that — I’m not sure if you’re avoiding that environment, or just assuming you couldn’t break into it? Check out ALA Joblist, HERC jobs, and individual colleges/universities for academic library jobs. See if you can sign up for email listservs targeting sub-sections of the profession — NASIG, ALA, Autocat, Code4Lib…

      For non-library alternative employers, I have no bright ideas except checking individual website for information services vendors like ProQuest, Ebsco, government publishing, etc.

      1. Anon Librarian*

        I tried and have been trying to get a library job, but no luck! Thank you for the recs for the websites- I will check those out!

        1. Stapler!*

          The job market is finally hot for employees! Find someone in your network who’s close to the specific type of library you hope to get a job in (academic, public, etc.) and ask them for coaching and/or help drafting your resume and cover letter for the industry. There can be some funny quirks in library hiring norms.

    2. HJG*

      I have an MSLIS but went straight from library school to a big tech company where I work as a program manager. Not necessarily common but honestly the skills are pretty transferable aside from talking to more people than one would in the archives :)

      1. Stapler!*

        Interesting! Erm, probably a dumb question…what does a programming manager do? Is that like coding/tech heavy skills, or like exec support, or something else? I bet the salary is better that what I get in a academic library in the NY metro area (mid-$70k’s)

  80. Orbital*

    Since the rumor mill started churning in my group, I asked my manager to move up the day we announce my leaving to this just passed Wednesday. My internal team mentor gave me a heads up that a few people had come to him and asked if I’m really leaving and he didn’t know what to say to them since I had asked to keep it on the DL until after Thanksgiving (US). The problem was, one of the managers for my team is a huge blabbermouth. He just CANNOT not tell everyone everything, which sucks because since he’s a manager, he always knows when people are leaving before the whole team so that tasks can be redistributed. Luckily, my manager is amazing and she reemphasized to the rest of the manager team to keep my leaving quiet. The other problem is that my best friend is also leaving about a month after I am. So, once Bad Manager let it slip that BFF is leaving, everyone pretty quickly figured I would be leaving, too. But, I must say, it’s been a huge relief to finally have my team know I’m leaving next month. They’ve all been super cool about it (except one guy who has always been socially awkward and typed “OH NO!!!! :(” in the IM chat during out staff meeting…) and the responses I’ve gotten have mostly been “Congrats!” and “We’ll miss you!” So that’s nice.

    1. ecnaseener*

      How *does* one know whether to respond with “oh no” vs “congrats” when a coworker leaves? If you were clear about moving to another job, that’s one thing – but if you didn’t mention any future plans it can feel terribly risky to congratulate the person in case it’s actually a bad thing.

      1. JB*

        You don’t have to do one or the other. You can just say ‘good luck!’ or ‘we’ll miss you!’

      2. Not A Manager*

        You can always say something like “best wishes!” or “I’ll miss you” or “I hope your next move is just what you’re looking for.”

  81. Brand New Supervisor*

    I joined my current company about eight months ago, and it’s been going great (though I still have a lot I can learn about my current role).

    My manager seems to think it’s been going better than great, though, because I just got promoted to supervisor, starting next week. I’m starting off easy with only a few direct reports, and I have a great working relationship with everybody on the team, but… I’ve never done this before! I’m not *worried*, really, but this is going to be a brand new role for me since I’ve never really had a leadership position before in any of my prior organizations.

    Do you guys have any basic, beginner-friendly resources for people who are just getting started in management? I’ve been reading AAM all year and it’s been enormously helpful and I suspect some of you folks have been in my shoes before, and know where to point me.

  82. wickedtongue*

    I have a “brainstorming new careers” question:

    I have a library degree (2013), but held temporary/intership/volunteer positions for a few years before finally finding a full-time gig at a university press (in production, so very project management and coordination focused). I am now so ready to leave and find a new job, either in libraries or another position that is book/media/writing focused.

    Could I find my way back into libraries –preferably academic? And what would I be suited for outside of that? I’m trying to think wide.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      Some advice for thinking wide:

      When you talk to family/friends/acquaintances (or scroll through Ask a Manager comments), take note when someone mentions a job that you think sounds interesting. Then, go to indeed (or any other big job page) and plug in “job title” and your location. Browse the listings and apply to any that catch your eye. You can also do a more in-depth hunt if any career paths seem like an especially good match.

      This might not net you much on the book/media/writing side of things (unless your network has a lot of people in those fields), but it’ll give you a good idea of what’s out there and how many of your skills are transferable.

      Some questions about the book/media/writing side of things:
      – Are/were their any other job functions you heard about/worked with at the university press that you’d be interested in trying? Either there or at another company?
      – Is technical writing something you might want to pursue?
      – Are you willing to move for a library job, or do you want to stay in the same geographic area?

      No need to answer those questions here, just something to maybe get you thinking about possible options/limitations. I don’t have any concrete advice because I don’t work in that world.

      Best of luck!

    2. Stapler!*

      It is, finally/for once, a job-seeker’s market. My inbox is flooded daily with academic librarian listserv postings with job ads. I’m serving on a search right now, and we’re having a hard time getting the minimum number of applications in. You can DEFINITELY get back into academic libs if you want.

      Tip: find someone in the industry to coach you/help you polish your CV/cover letter/help you prepare.

      1. wickedtongue*

        That’s so helpful to know! I’ve just been assuming that since I’m so out of touch with librarian-ship proper that I would be passed over immediately, but knowing that academic librarian jobs are having problems finding candidates gives me some hope that I could find a place.

        And goodness knows I know enough people in the field to help with cv’s!

        1. Stapler!*

          Yes! And I am at a big/”prestigious” liberal arts focused college in the NY metro area. You got this, if you want it! ;-)

  83. Interviewer dos and donts*

    I always see advice for interviewees but none for how not to be a bad interviewer. What advice would you give to someone who had never interviewed someone before? My partner is moving up in their job and theie boss is now pulling them i to interviews. They have never been on the other side of interview table so they don’t know what to do. Any advice?

    1. Lauren*

      If they like a candidate, the more information they give the better. Tell them the PTO policy, what the insurance company is, if they cover weird stuff like IVF, maternity leave time and % paid. As a female candidate, these questions are seen as negotiating – which is unfair and stupid. Tell them stuff upfront, makes the yes easier later. Also, tell them what you like about your job, give examples of expectations from their future manager. The questions don’t matter as much – just get a list online about evaluating if they can do the job. Of course, not everyone should get the inside peek – that is more for the 2nd round. What would your partner want to know?
      1) Everyday operations (meetings, workload, manager insights)
      2) specifics on the package ahead of time.

    2. CaviaPorcellus*

      I think the biggest interviewing do’s are: Be kind, be understanding, and be willing to ask for more detail if the answer warrants it.

      The people across from your partner are probably going to be stressed and anxious, so a warm interviewer who’s fine with them shaking and stuttering and doesn’t hold that against them is going to go a long way to putting them at ease.

    3. ANon.*

      First, your spouse should be aware of what skills/qualifications they are looking for for that particular position.

      Your spouse should have a pre-set list of interview questions that they ask each candidate. They can follow up based on a candidate’s response, but they should be following up to the same degree for each candidate. I recommend interview questions about past behavior (ex. “tell me about a time when you had to deal with XYZ”) as past actions are the best indicator of future behavior.

      The purpose for this is to avoid unconscious bias. They should not be going with who they “vibe” with the most, but the person who is most capable of doing the job successfully based on the criteria determined beforehand.

    4. ecnaseener*

      Ask the questions you actually want to know, not the corporate-lingo versions. This goes double if you’re interviewing entry-level candidates who don’t know all the lingo.

      For example, I don’t really want to know a candidate’s biggest weakness (or, hell, maybe I do, but they’re not going to tell me their actual biggest weakness) I want to know that they’re capable of identifying their own weaknesses and working to improve them. So I ask something more along the lines of “What’s a work-related skill you’re working on developing? How are you working on it?” (I learned not to leave out “work-related,” some inexperienced candidates will not guess that part!)

    5. Hippo-nony-potomus*

      Interview question I hate:
      Describe the trajectory of your entire career, with specific mention of first jobs out of college/graduate school. It’s fine to ask about the last 5-10 years, but when you’re asking someone about jobs they did back in 2008 when the economy was in the gutter, you’re basically hiring for people who got lucky or had connections.

      Preferred interview questions:
      1. Experience you have with the actual work. Reason: that’s what you’re hiring for. If the person was a llama rider before settling down into data analytics in 2013, it’s demeaning to make them describe all their reasons for no longer being a professional llama rider when they have almost a decade of experience in the job you are hiring for.
      2. What they liked/disliked about previous jobs. Reason: this gives you insight into what drives them and causes them to stumble – which is about fit in your own corporate culture – and how realistic their expectations of office culture are. “I loved llama riding but I made approximately $250 a week” is a perfectly fine reason to get a boring desk job. “My manager did not let me clock out at exactly 5 pm every day when I still had work to do” tells you something about the candidate.

      Your goal is to find someone who can do the job and is a reasonable person to work with.

  84. Lauren*

    I GOT A NEW JOB! The written offer is coming in and I expect to give my notice today! They even gave me Hover Car Credits (e.g. equity). I negotiated and got 3k more and a bump on the sign-on bonus. I’m so excited to get out of agency life. It’s scary, but I’m getting older and agencies have no loyalty. You lose a client and you are gone. The insurance isn’t better, but they might cover things that my current company doesn’t. It’s a good team and I’m really happy.

  85. PartyOnWayne*

    Does your organization (or past employers of yours) do any celebrations and/or recognition events for employees that are not tied to any holidays? I’m looking for ideas on completely non-holiday related events to get our teams together and wondering if you have ideas on what you actually appreciated and enjoyed in the past.

    1. Anonymous Koala*

      We do quarterly meeting/deadline blackouts to give people time to use their PTO without worrying about arranging work coverage, and we do bi-yearly picnics. As an employee, I generally prefer things like meeting blackout weeks, additional PTO, and increased flexibility over events. But if you must have an event, picnics (during the normal workday) accommodate most people and are inexpensive to plan. I thinking making the event a regular thing rather than deliberately scheduling around the holidays is the easiest way to remove the holiday association from this kind of thing.

      1. PartyOnWayne*

        Thanks for the ideas. I also much prefer extra PTO and flexibility over events, but I’m not actually in leadership unfortunately, just happen to be one of the head people on the “event committee.” So my goal is that if we have to have an event, make it not non-cringeworthy and also not a complete waste of time.

    2. Orbital*

      I’d suggest just calling them “Employee Appreciation Events” or something like that. We also have pizza party whenever someone leaves the team (if the person leaving is okay with that) and we have quarterly corporate employee appreciation events. The pizza parties have stopped because of Covid, but the other stuff has just been changed to individual items, like ice cream bars or to-go containers.

      1. ecnaseener*

        Yes, we have Employee Appreciation Month. (Side note, if your workforce is partly remote, don’t forget to include them…this year we remote workers just got to hear about all the in-person activities we couldn’t attend, and then got a $5 gift card after the appreciation month ended.)

    3. A*

      Yes – each dept has a budget to do a ‘team building’ event twice a year. Typically they’ll ask for suggestions, come up with a short list, and we vote. I was only there for two prior to COVID but the first was a booze cruise down a river (was during the day / work hours so it wasn’t a party atmosphere, more like 1-3 drinks for those interested while eating apps & chatting while watching the sunset), and the other was a trip to a local adult arcade. Since COVID we all voted not to do anything and instead donate the budget to our frontline workers emergency PTO fund, mostly because we were all sick of virtual ‘bonding’ events. But we had briefly considered getting tickets for a virtual magic show where they mail you a kit of props ahead of time – sounded fun, but ultimately we are in a line of work deeply impacted by the pandemic so we wouldn’t have been able to do it during work hours and none of us were interested in investing our personal time.

    4. Blomma*

      We’ve typically done an “employee appreciation event” in February for all employees +guest. We didn’t have one last year because of the pandemic, but the previous three years we went to an acrobatic/circus show, attended a professional musical theater production, and participated in a glass blowing workshop. Every year the event also includes dinner at a nice restaurant. It’s a lot of fun!

    5. Generic Name*

      My company does not do holiday parties (I’m guessing the CEO witnessed too many unprofessional shenanigans at the engineering companies she worked at in the 70s and 80s), so instead we normally do a summer cookout.

  86. Bobina*

    UK People:
    I had a recruiter reach out to me this week with a role that seemed interesting, but I’m trying to be more open/firm about wanting a more flexible working pattern and said that I was looking for either a shorter contract (30hrs/4 days a week) or a compressed fortnight (work 10 days in 9 to have every other Friday off). They came back pretty quickly and said thats not possible (the role was in a fairly traditional/conservative industry though…)

    I get that the 4 days a week may not have been possible, but I was surprised that they didnt even contemplate the compressed fortnight. I know quite a few people who work this, and even some companies where it was a standard working pattern option.

    So question is: should I have waited until further in the process to ask for this? If I got the job, wait the 6 months and then make the request? Personally I was like, I dont want to waste time/get invested in a role and then not be able to have this, so its better to be upfront, but wondering if its that much of a dealbreaker to ask early on. Wondering if I’ve been spoilt by (big) companies who encourage asking for this in their application materials.

    Anyone have tips and tricks for negotiating flexible working when applying for a job rather than when you’ve been in it for some time?

    1. PollyQ*

      I think you need to decide how much of a dealbreaker it is to you. If you really don’t want to take a new job without a flexible schedule, then asking right up front is a good idea. If it’s more of a “nice to have,” then perhaps wait until you’ve learned more about the job and raise the general question of flexibility. I certainly wouldn’t take a job, work 6 months, and then ask, not unless you’re actually OK with not having the request granted.

      I think you also have to be realistic that a flex schedule isn’t going to work with every job, and even in cases where it might, some companies aren’t going to be interested. That’s their call to make, just as it’s your call as to whether you’ll work a regular 5/8/40 workweek.

  87. L in DC*

    Moving onto a business formal environment after years of wearing uniforms – what are the best brands/outfits/fabrics for going from airplane to meeting? I am female with an average hight/build and fair complexion, so I favor dark navy over black.

    Thanks everyone!

    2. AK*

      I would wait to buy more than couple items until you’ve been in the job for a couple of weeks. Even in DC formal environments a lot of women are now wearing sheath dresses with a coordinated (but not matching) blazer. Currently fashions for full suits are more pants than skirts. If you have the budget, M.M LaFleur (which I believe has a DC showroom) and The Fold are good choices, but honestly DC is not a fashion forward town and Ann Taylor and J Crew suiting will be fine, and often available on sale.

  88. curious inquiry*

    Silly question.

    Does anyone think sometimes a manager is not aware of how much you do/ are responsible for? I’m not saying the manager maliciously does this; just that you’ve grown with the position over the years and have become an expert in multi tasking and effiency.

    Personally I’ve been beyond lucky and have the best mentor and advisor as a manager. A friend recently confided in me she has a discussion about her work overload coming up.

    1. Princess Flying Hedgehog*

      My current manager has a big problem with not know what I do, what I’m responsible for, and how much work I have on my plate. (My coworkers have the same issue, too.)
      Even the best manager won’t know everything about your job, but they should have a pretty good idea of your workload and your duties/projects.

      1. curious inquiry*

        I agree. It appears that my friend…. 5 minute tasks to help her manager out in a time crunch, became her responsibility (not a big deal). But those 5 minute tasks could be used in other assignments so she expanded and customized things. Now each of those tasks are 1-2 hours a week to complete, very helpful, but in her managers mind it is still a 5 minute task. I’ve met her manager. He’s not the kind of person to get defensive, point fingers, blame people. My friend is overloaded and her boss wants to discuss how to redistribute between the team more evenly. In the industry, this manager is considered amazing and so many people want to work for/ with him. So I don’t think he piled on work to overwhelm his employees. I just don’t think he realizes that expanding the tasks was something so detailed.

      2. Anonymous Luddite*

        Agreed.

        Also: not a silly question. Scott Adams made part of a 20 year career about this very subject.

        1. curious inquiry*

          Thank you. I love the AAM open thread but sometimes I post some weird thought I am thinking of and realize later that as an “in the moment idea” that is silly once I took the time to ponder the big picture

    2. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I’m currently advocating for a coworker with this problem. She’s part-time, but no one treats her like she is. Her primary responsibility is managing the boss’s calendar but a) no one realizes how huge a task that is and b) people also grab her for a million tiny, one hour projects that add up over time. I’ve learned to never make assumptions about someone’s workload.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      I think this is more common than not. Most managers I’ve had aren’t aware of how much/what I am doing on a day to day basis. Part of that is the nature of my job, which is largely self-directed, but even with managers who have done the same or similar jobs before — they don’t really know what I’m doing all day.

      1. curious inquiry*

        See I was afraid to point out what you said. I think there are a lot of amazing managers out there but since they see things as the bigger picture they don’t see all the grunt work and detail that goes into those in positions below you hierarchy wise.. not all managers but I feel like there’s a good handful.

    4. ecnaseener*

      Definitely! One thing that can help is taking a vacation long enough to need coverage — it gives you an opening to go over the list of your responsibilities.

      1. curious inquiry*

        My friend is overloaded and her manager was concerned. When he heard all that she was doing he is looking into everyone’s position to redistribute. I like that he is checking in a few times a year with his staff, but for those who don’t I can see how the vacation method would be beneficial

    5. theguvnah*

      Very common, and part of the reason managing up is so critical – it is actually part of your job to convey and communicate what is on your plate to your boss.

  89. ginkgo*

    Hello! Long time reader, first time commenter. Tl;dr I think I’d like to transition from higher ed (student affairs/enrollment management) to IT– how to make the shift?

    I’ve been working in higher ed for the past few years, in student affairs/enrollment management. Although I enjoy working on a college campus and *really* love the benefits and the general work/life balance, I can feel myself quickly burning out on my particular area. I enjoy helping students and I like the more technical parts of my job, but I don’t like giving presentations or attending events on evenings/weekends. And honestly, I think I’m just emotionally exhausted from working in this field during the pandemic.

    I’ve been wanting to shift to a different area of higher ed, and recently I’ve been considering IT. The combination of technical tasks and helping students/staff makes me think that I would really enjoy the work. I’ve often considered going into a more technical field like IT, but I much prefer a laid-back work environment– so I think working at a university would be much more manageable for me than working at a tech company.

    However, I don’t have the skills/experience for IT jobs and am wondering if it would be beneficial to get another degree. (Already have a BS.) My current job would pay for 100% of tuition and fee costs, and there are quite a few BS/MS programs in IT/computer science that I could complete online. But, I’m wondering if another degree is even necessary or if training typically happens on the job.

    So, for anyone who has transitioned from higher ed/general office work to IT, how did you make the shift? Did you find that a degree in the field was necessary? And if you happen to work in IT at a college/university, is there anything you think is important to know about these jobs? Thank you!!

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I don’t work in IT, but I know a friend-of-a-friend who worked at and IT helpdesk. He didn’t have a technical background, but his job was a lot of “is the device plugged in? did you turn it off and back on?” type stuff, and escalating the issues he couldn’t solve. Maybe you could look for a similar position, and once you’re there I think you’ll have a better idea of what education you need to move up (or if that’s something you can learn on the job).

      Also, look at IT job ads on indeed or monster. If you notice a trend of “B.S. in ___ required/preferred” that’ll give you a good indication of what degree to pursue.

      1. ginkgo*

        Great advice, thank you! Yes, I definitely feel that helpdesk jobs would be a great way to start out. From what I can tell, most entry level jobs in my area don’t require/prefer anything beyond a Bachelor’s, and many only request an Associate degree. My BS is actually in a semi-related field (GIS), though I haven’t used those skills at all since graduating a few years ago. I might try to take a few “intro to IT/computer science” classes at the undergrad level just to get my feet wet while I search for entry level positions. It definitely seems like I was going a little overboard by looking into MS degrees at this stage, haha. Thanks again!

        1. IT professional*

          I’m in IT and yes, what Hlao said!

          Most people I know in IT (all earning good salaries) have a degree in Music or something else unrelated. Unless the jobs you target ask for a specific degree, focus on learning (check out Coursera or Udemy), not getting a diploma. An MS degree is most likely to be a waste of time. Good luck!

  90. Circe*

    I recently moved into a higher role in a new, larger company and now am both overwhelmed with new (slightly intimidating) responsibilities and too much work. The good news is that there are actually people here to delegate to, instead of just doing everything myself.

    But how do you actually delegate? Any advice here?

    I’d love some first-time delegating advice AND some advice on delegating to people that are mildly incompetent (I promise it’s not just me being new to this, these people seem to legitimately lack a few brain cells and ignore deadlines or provide bad work).

    1. It’s FriYay Ya’ll*

      When I first started managing, the process of delegating was much more difficult to tackle than I initially thought it would be. Do you manage these people? The incompetency part worries me, when there are skills gaps and you don’t trust someone can handle something that will cause you more worry than just doing the work. Here’s how I ultimately approached it.

      1) make a list of all the things you do in a day, projects you’re working on, etc.
      2) prioritize that list based on what makes sense for your role. If you have projects with major deadlines or clients that have higher slas move them up the list.
      3) make a list of all the skills of the people you can delegate to with a similar ranking system. If bob is great at writing but horrible at time management those are all important things to note.
      4) start small. Train and assign non priority work to people based on their strengths.
      5) create a plan with each individual for milestone checkins to assess progress/make adjustments early.
      6) provide ample feedback on errors/issues and what they did great on. Sometimes people seem incompetent because they also haven’t been told the areas they do well.
      7) rinse wash repeat. You can rotate people in and out if different functions until you find work that clicks for them. As people move on or you hire new people you’ll have a framework for training and the “easier” tasks that will help people hit the ground running.

  91. Dee Dee*

    Hello friends! I may be facing a dilemma this week.

    A colleague of mine left the org I currently work at maybe 8 months ago. She’s been building up a team at her new workplace and I noticed last week that she posted a position that is, essentially, the same thing I am doing right now. I’ve been getting a bit frustrated with my employer lately, so I reached out to her and asked her about it. She told me that the job description was written based in no small part based on my role at our mutual employer and strongly encouraged me to apply. So I did.

    This week I’ve had three interviews with people from her org–the first was with her and a peer I’d be working closely with, and then two other shorter ones, one with one of her peers and another with her boss. Her boss said that my former colleague had been singing my praises and closed the interview saying “I hope you’ll be joining us.”

    Here’s my dilemma. This is 100% a lateral move. Same industry, same role I am doing now, but in an organization that’s a few years behind where my current employer is in terms of its maturity in my field. I’d be pressing reset, effectively, in the hopes that this org might do things “right” and in so doing resolve some of the frustration I have with my current employer. But, because I’ve been through that rodeo before, I’m well aware there’s a good chance that if things don’t go really well in the next year, there’s a good chance of things getting restructured in the next year or two. From what I’ve heard, they’re pouring a tonne of money into this team, but I know that means the pressure to show big results will be very high.

    It’s also completely remote, and so I have concerns about going from a place where I have earned a strong reputation and am a known quantity to being the new guy again. On the other hand, the grass sure looks greener over there! And I’d probably get a raise, as well.

    I’m honestly really torn here. Ironically, I have a couple of co-workers I wish I could talk to, but I probably don’t want it known that I’m considering this. (On the other hand, I’m feeling pretty taken for granted so there’ s a petty part of me that wishes it was known that I do have options…)

    Any advice on leaving an organization for a lateral move? Is it worth it? I’m not super concerned about the money to be honest (though of course it is nice)–more about being somewhere where I feel respected and that I can make a meaningful contribution.

    1. Sherm*

      It sounds like you have well considered the risks of going, but what are the risks of staying? You mention frustration — is it pretty basic frustration that exists to some degree at almost every job, or is it things like “I don’t have accomplishment to put on my resume because nothing gets done here”? Emotional risks like “I dread Mondays, and I am going to scream if I hear one more platitude” are valid, too.

      As for “hitting reset”, I dunno, if you, say, have worked 3 years as a teapot painter in OldJob, and spend another 5 years as a teapot painter in NewJob, can’t you say that you have 8 years of teapot painting experience? And with so many people adept to remote work these days and interfacing with people, I don’t think I would worry too much about making an impression remotely.

    2. Jack Bruce*

      I moved to a position where I’m in an area that’s pretty different, but it’s a new position & program so it’s all from the ground-up and involves a lot that I did at my previous role. Honestly, I love it- I really like building and planning, seeing things grow. I also get to be creative and have the authority to make things up as I go along, instead of fighting against “this is how we’ve always done things” like my previous position. (That position was fulfilling for years, but once I’d cleared the big hurdles I got a little bored.) I was also worried about the pressure of results in my new job, but I feel confident I can do this- cause I’ve done it before and succeeded. Sounds like you’re in a similar position.

      It is a bit odd because in my current role, the pressure isn’t there right away. My team and director understanding we’re building for the future so my onboarding hasn’t been rushed. That’s been a relief but also unsettling in some ways. What’s weird is getting used to that and pushing things ahead by myself- there are no deadlines right now breathing down my neck, but I need to make progress. So I’ve had to become more directed and focused on what I want to happen, and be persistent in asking for it. But it is still worth it- I have at least 5 years of work to get this off the ground and I’m looking forward to what I can do with it. So in my case, it’s definitely worth it because it’s work I enjoy doing and in a good environment. Think of it less as a reset for you personally, and a chance to be successful at something again and build for the future- if you enjoy that type of work. It might be fun!

    3. The New Wanderer*

      “Any advice on leaving an organization for a lateral move? Is it worth it? I’m not super concerned about the money to be honest (though of course it is nice)–more about being somewhere where I feel respected and that I can make a meaningful contribution.”

      I could have written this about six months ago. I was frustrated with my long-term outlook at my company, even though my day to day job was great, including almost all colleagues and my direct manager. I applied for basically a lateral role with similar salary and ended up accepting it. I’ve been in the new role for almost two months and I think it was the right call. I was starting to get too personally invested in things at the previous company that weren’t going to go well, in addition to the baseline career frustration, and it was going to poison me over time. Now I get a chance to do a lot of the same kind kind of work with new people who mostly seem great too. I’ve been told many times already how much my knowledge and skills are appreciated and valued, and I do think I’ll get to make that meaningful contribution I’ve been hoping for.

  92. CaviaPorcellus*

    Hi everyone! I’m currently working full-time while also earning my MSW. My first internship is starting next quarter.

    I was promised a total set-your-own-schedule setup, but obviously with supervision requirements that’s not ENTIRELY possible. That said, I just got a calendar invite to join the weekly Zoom meetings for the team I’ll be working with.

    Mid-day Thursdays. Uh oh.

    My job doesn’t know I’m earning this degree (because it’s irrelevant to the position I have, and there’s nowhere in the org for me to use it after graduation). How do I navigate this? Should I ask for an adjusted hour lunch break on Thursdays? Can I wave this off as a vague appointment?

    1. ecnaseener*

      Yes, I think you can be vague. Explain that you negotiated a lot of freedom in your schedule because of other commitments, and one of those commitments is unfortunately during this proposed time. (That said, if you don’t have a reason to hide it, why not say you have a class then instead of an appointment?)

      2. CaviaPorcellus*

        Oh! I should have been clearer – I’m asking what to tell my employer, not my internship supervisor. My employer doesn’t know I’m earning the degree, and therefore cannot know about the internship.

    2. Cle*

      If you think that this meeting can put your employment at risk, I’d reach out to the social work department chair, your internship advisor, or whatever the equivalent is at your college and ask them for advice first. Even if they have no advice, it puts them on notice that there is an issue.
      If you don’t think it would risk your employment, just make things a tad uncomfortable, I’d absolutely waive it off as an appointment, and also ask your internship supervisor if you could attend every other week so it’s a little less often.

  93. Audrey Puffins*

    Hey all,
    I’m currently on a fixed-term contract but applying for my-job-but-permanent. I have to provide a cover letter, but the application also calls for a supporting statement where I talk about my achievements, personal qualities and skills. What is the ever-loving difference meant to be between this statement and my cover letter? Please help!

    1. Miraculous Ladybug*

      Huh, that’s… weird!

      You could use the cover letter to talk more broadly about those things + why you want the job, and then use the supporting statement to go in depth on those three topics? That might break it up enough to keep them separate but tied together as a suite.

    2. PollyQ*

      Do you already have a relationship with the person in charge of hiring you? If so, I think it’d be fine to ask them what the difference is. Even if you don’t, I still might go ahead & ask, rather than guess.

    3. SnappinTerrapin*

      I see merit in both pieces of advice I see above.

      I suspect they want a traditional cover letter (a la AAM) that demonstrates your ability to concisely express your fit for this position, and a separate, but more detailed, statement of your achievements, qualities and skills. That sounds like a good opportunity to make your best case.

      It also makes sense to ask the hiring manager for clarification, just to be sure your aiming at the target they want.

      Good luck!

  94. Fall Leaves*

    I’m meeting grandboss during his next visit to our office. He’s new to his role and framed the meeting as wanting to get to know me and my role in the org.
    While he didn’t say it explicitly, this is a prescreen for a role my manager wants to create where I take over part of her team.
    How can I best prepare and impress grandboss?

    1. Angstrom*

      Be prepared to make it a conversation. You’re curious about grandboss, aren’t you? What accomplishments are they proud of? Where do they see the company going? Looking back on their career, what advice would they have for new managers? Etc…. People almost always respond well when someone takes an interest in them.
      You’re happy to meet them, you’re proud of the work you and your team are doing, you’re excited to share your ideas about how to grow and progress, you’re looking forward to working with them to make these things happen. Introduce the rest of your team and share their accomplishments.
      Talk with grandboss like a professional colleague. If they’re good, they’ll find that refreshing.

  95. The Smiling Pug*

    I’m thinking of getting a SAD lamp to help boost my productivity while I WFH. Does anyone have experience using these for this purpose?

    1. Fall Leaves*

      Yes! I’m not a morning person and my lamp has helped me start the day a lot faster. I have it next to my monitor stand and I leave it on for the whole morning. I live pretty far up north so this has been a game changer. Even thinking of getting a spare one for the office now that I’m sometimes working from there.

        2. Fall Leaves*

          While the link’s in moderation: Beurer TL30, looks like a tablet and has a green holder and a gray pouch/sleeve.

    2. A different perspective*

      I did get one but had to discontinue using it. I was getting very bad headaches even though I used the lowest setting and had it at a good distance. Also, some eye conditions can be made worse by these, so if you haven’t already, you might want to read up on that before ordering a lamp. Good luck, I hope it works for you.

      1. A different perspective*

        p.s. I bought a more expensive (but still reasonable) model because it had multiple settings, you might consider that in addition to price.

        1. The Smiling Pug*

          Thank you for offering a different side to this. I’ll be sure to look into it and see what works best.

  96. Miraculous Ladybug*

    How much wiggle room do you have to say no to random tasks at a small organization?

    Vague background: I work for a very small company, generally great with amazing coworkers and responsibilities I love. It’s overall pretty great, but this one department has a habit of asking me for things that are easy enough to do, I guess, but that aren’t really in my wheelhouse and shouldn’t be my responsibility (think: I am a teapot designer, and they are asking me where they should buy cozies for their specific teapots and what color they should be and also if I can order them for them). I technically could do these things, and it’s a small business, we are all wearing a lot of hats, I totally get that, but these requests are starting to add up and I’m starting to feel a little bit used. Do I have leeway to push back on these things without making myself seem like I’m not a helpful person or a team player? Is this just a part of the job I have to get used to?

    Complicating factor: my boss is out on maternity leave until at least January, which has left me nominally in charge of our small two-person department.

    1. Generic Name*

      If you don’t want to say no outright, you could offer to do it next month (or whatever timeframe would make them decide to do it themselves) after job priorities A-G are handled first. Do you know whose job it is to do those things? Or whose job it makes the most sense to handle? Then you could say, “actually Chad handles teapot koozie ordering”

    2. Tess*

      I’ve been on a kick lately at work where I say a polite “no” if someone in a different department tasks me with work (and doesn’t have the authority to do). It’s one thing for someone to chat with you briefly about a previous procedure or some other institutional knowledge, but to assign work to you is just plain odd. Perhaps there are politics at your company that would make necessary boundary-setting awkward, but I’d still want to know why I was being asked and who is permitting the asking.

  97. Carly*

    I started a new job a few months ago, and in the past two weeks I’ve suddenly been asked to run a bunch of errands. (Like dropping off checks at the bank, retrieving important documents that were erroneously sent to the company’s second office instead of our office, bringing packages to the post office.)

    I don’t mind “pitching in” once in a while, but I’m concerned if this might become a regular or frequent thing because:

    1) My car is 21 years old and not in the best shape, so I don’t want to be putting a ton of extra miles on it.

    2) Snow/ice season starts soon. My car is tiny, and doesn’t have four wheel drive or even anti-lock brakes.

    3) Gas prices have risen a lot recently where I live.

    So I guess my questions are:

    At what point would it be fair to ask if I can be reimbursed for mileage? (I have no idea if they’d even consider that—no sort of traveling was ever mentioned before.)

    And what happens if I get in a car accident while running errands for work? (My car frankly isn’t worth much so I don’t have insurance on it. I worry that I might suddenly have to spend a ton of money buying another used car or something.)

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      At any point (like, yesterday), it’s okay to say “I’m sorry, I can’t use my car for work errands any more.”

    2. Lifelong student*

      Unless that was included as part of the job description when you were hired, you have no obligation to use your personal vehicle for business purposes. I live in a small city- there is no free parking in the “business district.” I rode public transit or was dropped off by spouse for years. I actually had a car available to me- but refused to keep it available for work unless the business paid for the parking. One time, an employer raged at me that any future employee would be required to do so- but could not mandate me to do so.

    3. Lizy*

      Assuming it’s not a part of your regular responsibilities, I’d just say you’re unable to use your car for errands. If they push back, however, you may need to come up with a different solution.

      Mileage – I’d ask for anything. I use my car to drive 0.3 miles to the post office (and back, so 0.6 miles round trip). I probably do it 4-5 times a month. I totally count it and get mileage reimbursement every month.

    4. Pikachu*

      If errands are not part of your job, then every inch you are driving on work tasks that is not your commute to or from the office is mileage that should be reimbursed.

  98. irene adler*

    At this time of year (mid-November) can one reasonably ask to start a new job in January?

    Details:
    I’m being recruited and the process seems to be going slowly. I don’t expect to be interviewed until mid November.

    So if they were to give me an offer it wouldn’t be until mid-November (or later!). I will have to give my current position a 2-week notice. So that means December -at the soonest- I would be at my new job.

    Given it is the holiday season, would it be too much to ask that they postpone the start date until the first week of January? Or would asking something like this be reason enough to remove me from consideration for the position?

    We’re not talking C-suite or director or even a manager position here.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      I think that would be fine. I bet a lot of places would even be expecting it.

      Unless it’s a sales/customer service/retail position where they’re specifically hiring in hopes of holiday coverage.

    2. ThatGirl*

      Not unreasonable at all. Many (if not all) companies are pretty slow in December or have a lot of people out on vacation so it makes it easier on everyone to start in January.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      It’s not unreasonable, as long as the hiring process is going at a decent pace. You said the process is going slowly. You said you want to ask them to postpone the start date. What is the current proposed start date?

    4. Alex*

      I think that is very reasonable. They will probably be relieved not to have to onboard someone during the holidays unless there is some reason that that time of year is extra important for your role to be filled.

      Also if you aren’t even interviewing until mid November and the process is already slow, I wouldn’t actually expect an offer until mid December anyway.

    5. PollyQ*

      First, unless it’s truly a dealbreaker for you, I wouldn’t raise the issue until the actual offer comes, because at an earlier stage, if they’re deciding between several qualified candidates, they really might use this to disqualify you. I also think it’s likely that if the hiring process is already moving slowly, you’re unlikely to get any offer before December, at which point those couple of extra weeks would be fine. But I doubt that asking once the offer’s been made would cause them to retract it. At that point, worst case scenario is just that they say no.

      1. WoodswomanWrites*

        Agree with this. There’s no need to bring up the timeline while you’re still going through the interview process. It’s best to avoid anything that they might interpret as making you a less desirable candidate.

        1. irene adler*

          Of course! And I wouldn’t do that before the offer was extended.

          However, my experience at the first interview stage, is that I am asked “how soon can you start?” . My response is always “I need to give a full 2 weeks notice to my current employer.” Now, can I point out that, as we are in mid-November, can we discuss how soon they need me to start (i.e. during or after the holidays)?

          1. PollyQ*

            I think a standard answer of “I need to give 2 weeks notice, plus ideally I’d like a week’s break to start fresh” is a good one if you get asked in an early interview. But I really would wait until you get an offer to discuss an actual start date. Any earlier and it could look a little like you’re not that eager to get started.

  99. Pocket Mouse*

    I started a new role a little bit ago, within the same organization I’ve been at for several years. I’d like to update my LinkedIn page, but due to the nature of my new role, there are many parts of the job description I haven’t actually started doing yet (and likely won’t start for a few more months at least)… and of course the parts I have been doing are the less-impressive stuff. What’s your advice for presenting this new role on LinkedIn at this stage?

  100. GraceC*

    There’s a BBC article today about managers monitoring people who are WFH and potential laws to be brought in to combat it, seems like an interesting read for AAM readers – link in reply

  101. nonbinary nomcompliance*

    Hi folks! Hoping for some advice. I’m about three weeks into a new job (which I don’t love and didn’t really want in the first place, but needed to take as I’d lost my job and didn’t have any other options). When I started my last role, I began using my pronouns (they/them) in the workplace; previously, I used she/her, which began to feel very uncomfortable and not like me anymore. In my new role, I have done what I did before, and put my pronouns in my email signature following my name. So the sign-off would be:

    First Last (they/them)
    Title
    Org Name
    Blah Blah Blah

    I am still being called/referred to as ‘she’ by colleagues and I am really fed up by now. I truly don’t know if people don’t see it when it’s right in the email signature, or if they see it and ignore it (which is how I feel at this point even if that’s likely not the case).

    Some colleagues speak English as an additional language and I am trying to be sensitive to that, but my patience for being misgendered is wearing really really thin, especially since I do still have to “let it happen” if someone calls me ‘miss’ or ‘ma’am’ in a public setting like the grocery it’s too uncomfortable to correct them, and ‘not worth’ the risk. I just don’t have a ton of grace to give anymore when I am trying to make it easy for people to do what I’m asking. I have chronic health issues, a whole bunch of shit to do and manage, and being invalidated, even if it’s not on purpose, is getting to me.

    I have not met any of these coworkers in person, and have no idea when that will happen. I’m looking for a polite way to correct people while letting them know I’m hurt, and also a way to pre-emptively stop this from happening without necessarily having to out myself in an email blast to ~50 staff. Finally, I’m straight terrified of speaking up or complaining about absolutely anything after having been fired from two jobs for speaking up about management/work issues. I am in therapy, so no need to suggest that :)

    Thanks in advance, friends.

    2. Miraculous Ladybug*

      Ugh, I’m sorry your coworkers aren’t being sensitive about this! Two thoughts, one from me and one that my partner has been using:

      1. You could quickly but kindly correct them in the moment, which could help it feel more comfortable—using something like “oh, actually, I use they/them pronouns.” Super quick factual statement, but I totally understand it can be really hard to say in the moment, so…

      2. If you happen to have any coworkers who you trust with this stuff, my partner has had great success not having to actually have these conversations by basically deputizing coworkers to do it for them. That way, you’re not having to correct folks but someone still is: it could be as simple as approaching them and saying hey, this keeps happening, if you hear it happening would you mind helping me set the record correct?

      I’m sorry you have to do this; it sucks to have to constantly be on the defensive with this stuff.

      1. nonbinary noncompliance*

        remote work in the pandemic has made this so hard, as the errors tend to be by email (sometimes to multiple people, which I find worse, because then others might get the wrong impression about what pronouns I use), and I don’t (yet?) have anyone close as a coworker. on my first day, my boss called me by the wrong name and then later in the week he asked me to write a short self-summary and then changed my pronouns. I corrected him by email and he apologized and said it wouldn’t happen again, but I don’t feel like he’s necessarily the best choice for an ally wrt to this.

    4. Hlao-roo*

      I have a few suggestions for you. Hopefully at least one will work for you.

      (1) If/when you have meetings with one person or a small group of people, let them know that you’re nonbinary and use they/them pronouns. Obviously, only if you’re comfortable and think you’ll be safe.
      (2) Send a quick email or IM to anyone you notice misgendering you in an email. “Hey, so-and-so, just a reminder that my pronouns are they/them. I noticed you used “she” when referring to me in the TPS email and I want to avoid confusion in the future”
      (3) A quick mention when you reply all to the email chain. Something along the lines of: “The TPS report is attached. And by the way, I use they/them pronouns” or “Just want to mention my pronouns are they/them. The TPS report is attached.”
      (4) An email blast to all of your coworkers. I get that this is a last resort (not something I’d want to do either), but eventually the balance of discomfort my tip so heavily to being misgendered that an email blast seems like small potatoes, so remember this is an option.

      Maybe you can lessen your fear of speaking up/correcting people if you think about it along the same lines as someone calling you by the wrong name/a nickname you don’t use. I know transphobia is a beast, but this issue shouldn’t be in the same category as management/work issues. I’m sorry you’re going through this, and I hope you can hit upon a successful method to address it.

      1. nonbinary noncompliance*

        Thank you so much, and thank you for the link to the advice post. I really appreciate it.

    5. A Frayed Knot*

      This is tough. If the only way you’ve told people your pronouns is in your email signature, you may need to be more direct. Many people don’t read email signatures – they know who is sending the message and simply don’t read it. I only look at signatures for phone numbers when I need them.

      1. nonbinary noncompliance*

        I’ll try something a little different this coming week. I normally type my name in above the auto-signature; I can try adding the pronouns to that line in addition to the auto-signature.

        Most people don’t know who I am yet or necessarily that the email is from me, if they haven’t received an email from me before, so I kind of (wrongly, perhaps) assumed they might actually read the signature.

        Not getting to meet people in person or have any kind of office interactions/opportunities to talk to people outside of formal meetings makes it a bit nerve-wracking to be more direct.

  102. Cle*

    I have my own office, but the walls our thin and most sound carries. I’ve always been a little annoyed by chimes from email alerts, phone notifications, etc., but my department has grown much more technology dependent over the last year, and on days when I’m in I notice them a lot more. The worst culprit is my boss– in the office next door– she has what seems like every sound turned on with the volume cranked up. Every Teams message she gets pings both her phone and her computer. Since we have so few in person meetings now, she also spends more time in phone/video calls than pre-COVID, and I can hear every word she says. It’s gone from annoying to really interruptive, and I have ADHD so it takes a lot of time and energy for me to get back on track once I’ve been knocked off. I have not disclosed this at work; it hasn’t been necessary.

    I’ve tried making hints about the chiming, noted that when we’re in calls together there’s a large echoing issue, etc. but it hasn’t helped. I suggested that everyone might wear earbuds or a headset during calls as a matter of routine, but she says she doesn’t want something in her ears or on her head. I’ve also tried putting in earbuds and listening to music, but that isn’t the norm in my department. It’s surprised her and my coworkers when I have them in. It also doesn’t help my concentration as much as general office ambience sounds. The extra kicker is my boss is black, our organization is very white and leans toward bigotry, and I know my boss already hears microaggressions all the time– I’m wary to say something directly because I don’t want to add to what she deals with already by saying anything that could be interpreted as “you’re a loud black lady.”

    I can’t decide if I should just push through with earbuds/music and deal with any remarks about them that might come, as respectfully as possible let my boss know that so many sounds impact my productivity, or something else altogether. Any advice?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      ADHD is ADA protected you have the right to formal disability accommodations, so you can ask for those if hinting around isn’t getting you anywhere.

    2. Eliza Doolittle*

      Get specifically noise-cancelling ear buds / headphones. Instead of music try putting on ambient background noise. There are tons of youtube videos that cater to this sort of thing. Look for stuff like “rainy library ambience” or “cafe background noise” or whatever you personally want. I also find that I need a little bit of background sound that isn’t itself distracting. If people comment on the headphones, you don’t have to get into details, just say “Oh I find it helps me concentrate” and that’s it. Sadly you’ll probably just have to deal with your boss’s echoey zoom calls.

  103. Anon4This1*

    I’m curious about people’s “do as I say, not as I do” stories. Is there something that you always tell people at work not to do but you do it (or have done it in the past)? Last Friday I worked 3 hours off the clock, something I don’t advocate and always tell people they shouldn’t do if it comes up in conversation. I’ve never done it before and I don’t foresee doing it again. My job could be considered a sort of mashup of copyediting and document production. Friday I had a long, complicated but not difficult job that wasn’t finished at the end of my day and I couldn’t stay late (had a commitment outside of work), so I emailed details to the next shift and left. I was curious and a little concerned about how far they’d gotten so I checked my email when I got home – and they thought it was too complicated to figure out so decided not to work on it it at all and let it wait until I got in on Monday – two hours before it was due. I clocked back in, but after about an hour and change I hit 40 hours for the week (our work week is a few hours under 40 but we can work up to 40 if necessary) but I kept working for a few more hours. I knew I shouldn’t, but I did it anyway for my own peace of mind. I knew that if I left the job as it was, it would give me stress all weekend and I would be dreading Monday morning. I’ve thought about how I could have handled this better, considering what I know about past interactions with the next shift, and I don’t think this issue will ever come up again, so as I said above, I don’t foresee ever working off the clock again.

    Surely I’m not the only person here who’s done something on the job they said they’d never do and always advise against others doing it!

  104. Wannabe niche consultant*

    What is the etiquette for asking niche consultants advice for becoming the same type of consultant? I work in a niche industry and I have a five-year plan to become a consultant in the industry. There are only about four of these consultants that I know of, and I worked with one of them recently. I asked them a few questions about getting started and they did not seem super enthused to answer my questions. Definitely not rude, but it gave me pause. I know that I would technically be their competition but I also see it as it’s a big enough field and there are so few of them that if anything we could all collaborate sometimes and even refer each other business. Even in our niche field we have different specialties.

    I think that I could do a much better job with guidance from them, but maybe it’s not appropriate for me to do that since I could be their competition. Let me know what you think.

  105. Free Meerkats*

    In today’s Good News post, LW 1 mentioned “I’ll be salaried” like it’s a good thing. I see that a lot here and I’m wondering why that’s seen as an accomplishment. As I see it, that’s just shorthand for “I’m exempt now and my employer can get 60 hours of work out of me while only paying me for 40.”

    Is this just classist or am I just seeing it that way?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Oh lord no for me salaried was “I know how much money is going to be in my paycheck every week and I can plan around it” it was game changing.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        You may think salaried is “I’ll be working 60 hours now” but I think “I’m not longer one bad flu away from not paying my rent.” And maybe also “I can dip out early on Friday” but that’s less so.

        Also full time can be classified as 30 hours a week, full time hourly doesn’t guarantee you’ll get 40. Salaried guarantees you’ll get 40.

    2. Mental Lentil*

      I think the real difference is whether or not you are exempt. You can be salaried but not exempt, and then your employer has to pay you for overtime.

      But honestly, this is sometimes a class thing for people. Hourly workers tend to be equated with blue collar work, whereas salaried workers tend to be equated with white collar work. And some people definitely feel that it is better to be white collar than blue collar, and so going from hourly to salaried is seen as an accomplishment.

      I don’t know. I’ve been both in my life and there are pluses and minuses to both. I’ve been hourly and was grateful for the overtime, and I’ve been salaried and completely overwhelmed by working a sixty hour week and getting a forty hour paycheck. On the other hand, I’ve been hourly and wondered how I was going to pay my bills when hours got cut back and I’ve been salaried and grateful for being able to take an hour off here or there without worrying about a pay cut.

      I’m sure that there has to be a better system than the one we have, but I’m not sure what that looks like.

      1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        I’m sure that there has to be a better system than the one we have, but I’m not sure what that looks like.

        You took the words from my mouth!

    3. Yeah*

      Also salaried can also mean better benefits than hourly workers get.
      Maybe there will be 60 hr weeks (but most don’t see this) but you don’t have to worry that next week your 40 hr schedule is now 30 hrs with the corresponding smaller paycheck.

    4. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      Is this just classist or am I just seeing it that way?

      No, you’re right. Although I did find some other shifts when I went from Hourly to Salaried.

      When I was hourly, the time was the company’s. If a task was written for 8 hours and I was at 36 hours for the week, I spent 8 hours on it, because it was the company’s time to do with as it would (and pay me for). On salaried, those hours are mine; I’m much more motivated to find a way to do that 8 hour task in 4 hours, or even 2 hours, because I’ll reap the time savings (and will lose no income for it). I’m also more willing to experiment and try ambitious ideas, freed from having to justify overtime if they don’t pan out.

      Eldritch Office Worker is right about the predictable paycheque, too. Not having the light/furloughed weeks was worth seeing the big weeks go.

      In most ways, I think hourly is fairer, but personally I can make salaried work for myself slightly better.

    5. CBB*

      Where I live, if you’re “salaried” (meaning exempt for receiving overtime pay), it means you earn at least $58,240 per year. Depending on your background, that’s either no big deal, or it’s a HUGE deal.

      I earn slightly over that, and I have friends who marvel that I’m able to get by because I barely qualify to rent a two bedroom apartment for me and my kids. I also have friends who wish to someday follow in my footsteps of getting off SNAP benefits and not having to pick and choose which bills to pay each month.

      Personally, while I occasionally have to stay late at work, I’ve never been required to work anywhere near 60 hours in a week. So while forced unpaid overtime is a theoretical downside of being “salaried” it’s not one I’m really worried about.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        That’s the thing though “salaried” doesn’t mean exempt from overtime. A lot of people use it interchangeably with “exempt” but they do have different meanings.

    6. Overeducated*

      This may depend on where someone works. In my field, salaried jobs in general pay more than hourly. That’s not specifically because they are salaried, it’s just how the different career levels tend to be structured – entry and lower level jobs are often hourly, some are seasonal and/or part time, and advancement to a salaried job tends to mean more pay and security as well. I don’t know if it’s “classist” to want financial stability, but it’s certainly understandable.

      Also, salaried jobs paying below the FLSA threshhold have to pay you for overtime, not all are exempt. And my HR paperwork says I’m salaried exempt, but I’m treated as hourly in terms of how I account for my time and PTO, and I am not even allowed to work overtime without prior authorization and a really good reason. Sure, sometimes making sure I work *precisely* 40 hours a week and keeping time carefully is annoying, but not all employers expect salaried employees to work constant overtime.

    7. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I worked way more 50-60 hour weeks when I was hourly non-exempt than I did after I became salaried exempt.
      ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    8. RagingADHD*

      Some people use it as shorthand for being full-time with full benefits, because some jobs are structured that way – paying part-timers by the hour, and full-timers on salary. So if that’s the leap they’re making, it can be a really big deal.

    9. ecnaseener*

      In addition to the dependable paycheck, being salaried means you can be much more relaxed about time. Sola Lingua’s point is good, about being motivated to get through tasks more quickly & try out changes, because you’re focused on the task not the time. I also personally love that I can take breaks as often as I need them. When I worked hourly I felt like I had to be working every second unless it was an approved break, because I was on the clock – and forcing my ADHD brain to work when it doesn’t want to work is a recipe for failure.

      And my typical week is 40 hours! It’s a rare week that I even hit, say, 43.

    10. Alex*

      For me personally, moving from hourly to exempt was a huge sigh of relief, because my job was not able to really be done hourly! Sometimes there was more work to do after those 7 hours in the day. I was required to take an unpaid lunch. If I wanted to check my email after hours I couldn’t. And the nature of my work made all of this highly inconvenient.

      At my workplace, once you get to a certain seniority level you are exempt…but I actually still do the same job as I did when I was hourly, it is just easier to have the flexibility that exemptness gives me.

      I guess I don’t really care if my employer “gets” 50 hours of work from me some weeks. At the end of the day, I am responsible for delivering X and Y, so…it really doens’t matter. I can’t just go “Oh, my hourly day is up, someone else has to do this work now.” No, it just means I’m not allowed to work on it until tomorrow. Frustrating. I’d really rather manage my own time.

  106. Foxgloves*

    I’ve recently noticed that I’m REALLY struggling to contribute in large group meetings- either on Zoom or face to face. I think part of this is that I’m naturally fairly shy, but more importantly I think I’m just quite a reflective person- so I would rather listen, and then follow up later one-on-one or in a smaller group with thoughts. Obviously, this doesn’t massively work and it means I’m not coming across at my best in larger meetings (although I don’t have this problem in small groups, up to 5 is fine). Does anyone have any advice about how I can feel bolder about speaking up in meetings? I have a lot to contribute but I just feel like it’s not coming out!

    (It’s probably relevant that I’m a woman and the youngest of the group I work with (even though I’m 30!))

    1. Alice*

      FWIW, I am your opposite — happy to contribute in meetings and share ideas that might not work out (at least in the context of brainstorming — I promise that I am not just taking over every meeting). But I have a colleague like you, who typically listens closely, speaks little, and always has EXCELLENT insights when he does speak up — usually at the end of the meeting or in private afterwards. So, his take always gets full consideration.
      I’m not saying this to give you more pressure, like, “well, if you speak rarely, better make sure it’s always excellent!” I mean that, your reflective mindset means that your comments are probably very insightful when you do share them. So, it’s not necessarily a bad thing!
      Practical advice: you could suggest prework — there is no need for everything in meetings to be improvised. Then you might feel more comfortable, having already reflected in advance. Or you could talk with the chair in advance — ask, is there anything on the agenda where you want me to be sure to contribute? Maybe if you feel like you have an “official” invitation, your shyness won’t be triggered? Or, find the “me” in your team, the person who talks a lot, and tell them about this issue. I bet they would be happy to make a point of using their brassiness on your behalf — give them the high sign, or plan in advance, and they will say, “you know, Foxgloves has some related experience. What do you think?” and then you have an explicit invitation to say your piece.
      Good luck!

      1. Foxgloves*

        Alice, this is all SUCH HELPFUL ADVICE!! Thank you. I think you’re right- I need to start getting everyone into the habit of prework, I think, and then I’ll be able to contribute more. My (very supportive!!!) boss is actually a bit like you by the sounds of things, so I think I do also need to lean on him to push me into a spotlight a little more (related issue is that he can talk a LOT in meetings, not letting anyone get a word in at times, so that probably isn’t helping) and pass the mic, as it were. Thank you- lots to reflect on (ha!) for me here!

    2. Hlao-roo*

      I recommend the book “Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can’t Stop Talking” by Susan Cain.

      It’s been a few years since I read it, but one thing I remember is that sometimes it feels easier to ask questions in a meeting than to make statements. A good, insightful question can hold just as much power (maybe even more) as a declarative “X is the best way to go!” If that works for you, it should be pretty easy to pivot from asking questions in meeting to sharing ideas and other contributions.

  107. DigitalDragon*

    So I had my monthly 1-2-1 meeting with my manager this week. I went into feeling very good – my sick days are at an all time low, I’m navigating the clocks changing as well as I can (depression and this time of year are not the best mix) and I’d improved on something that was mentioned in my previous 1-2-1. However, that lasted all of 30 seconds, as the meeting starts with my manager going into a list of concerns about things that have happened over the last month, and eventually comes out with the words ‘Performance Improvement Plan’

    Now, she did clarify that it’s an informal one, so it’s just between me and her at the moment, and it the next steps (if I continue to fall below her expectations) are progressing along a more formal line, so termination isn’t around the corner. And having gone through the list I do agree that most of the items on there weren’t great (One example is that I missed a piece of work and it sat there for 2 weeks until I was reminded about it. Another was that something was going to take longer than anticipated, and I didn’t inform the relevant person so they were waiting when actually it wasn’t turning up. Not great examples, but not what I would consider a catastrophe. One I disagree with is that she said I just ‘left a piece of working hanging’ but from my point of view I was working on what I though there priority was, which wasn’t that, but again, maybe that was just a communication issue?), but I’m just having a hard time getting my head around it. It’s completely drained me emotionally, and although nothing on the list of what I need to improve is unachievable (better communication, timely responses, more thorough documentation of testing) I’m just super worried about it all. What if I’m not perfect at all this? What if I try my best and I still slip up? What if I can’t produce the evidence that she wants to see?

    I’m trying to reframe it all in my head that it’s just my bosses way of documenting the issues she sees and getting measurable improvement down on paper. She’s got some micromanaging tendencies (she mentioned that she’s cross referenced time stamps on my documents with entries in my calendars to see if I did the work I had blocked out, when I don’t use my calendar that rigorously, and things often change on the day), and that is really at odds with my style as an employee, but also I should be trying my best and mistakes like this aren’t great, so maybe it’s just the words ‘Performance Improvement Plan’ that have got me worked up?

    I’m also annoyed that we had this meeting at 3pm on Wednesday, and then she’s been on leave Thursday and Friday, and although she referenced a framework for this, she hasn’t actually put it together, so the next time I get to talk to her about this is on Monday (if she can make time for me), which on the one hand is good because that gives me time to process, but on the other hand feels really bad because I’m kind of left hanging.

    I could really just use some advice – has anyone got any advice from similar situations? Has anyone managed a big shift from how you thought you were doing at work to how your boss thinks your doing?

    1. Blossom Fowler*

      Sorry you were blindsided, but it sounds like your boss is trying to handle it well. You said that you can achieve everything on the list, so just focus on that. It sounds like if she boss sees that you are showing improvement, that will be enough. I doubt she is expecting you to be perfect at everything immediately.

    2. Hippo-nony-potomus*

      Look for a new job while meeting the terms of the PIP. Maybe you’re just not a good employee for her. Maybe another org would be helpful. Sometimes you need a clean slate.

    3. I need cheesecake*

      I really don’t mean to sound unsupportive but those things actually would be a big deal in most jobs – and I think playing them down may not help you.

    4. BRR*

      Having been on a pip before and failed at it, first I’m sorry you’re going through this. It’s so emotionally draining. My suggestion is you should be applying for other jobs while trying to meet your managers expectations. Usually if it gets this far, it can be hard to turn your managers opinion and there’s always a chance she will be worried these issues will come back.

  108. Alice*

    I’m feeling really down. We’re back in the office 50% of the time. People don’t have to wear masks in open offices, and some of the people who work in nearby cubicles have refused to when I asked. Our vaccination mandate is not being enforced. And this week I learned that someone I work with, who I always thought was an employee, is actually a contractor, and so he can’t work from home and his sick time is so restricted that he comes in when he feels sick. How can I trust that the company is actually providing a safe workplace environment? But I don’t know if the next employer would be any better.

    1. WellRed*

      I assume you’re vaccinated. Wear a mask, distance where you can. It’s the same when you go anywhere public. You don’t know who’s safe and who isn’t. If you look for work elsewhere, you can absolutely ask how they are handling the pandemic.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      I agree with WellRed’s points. A few more specifics if you decide to look for another job:
      – Ask about COVID precautions and pay attention to how detailed their plan is. Follow up with specific questions about vaccines, masks, distancing in the office, working from home, sick leave, quarantine policy, anything they don’t cover in their answer.
      – If you interview in person, you’ll be able to look around their space and see if their words and actions match. If you interview virtually, that’s a good sign (but not a guarantee) that some amount of work from home is allowed.

      My company is operating on a “come to the office as much or as little as you want” policy right now, and we are required to wear masks in the office. So there are definitely companies with better COVID safety out there!

  109. Two of Swords*

    So! I’ve been at my employer for just over 5 years. And… I’m struggling. My last 2 reviews resulted in no raise because I can’t go fast enough. That’s always the problem. They’ve been slowly raising our goals, and after speaking with other current and former workers and a supervisor – they consider it unfair and only results in people cheating their work to have higher numbers. Makes no difference, I know. Management does what management does, but I feel better writing it lol. My problem is I don’t have a degree and didn’t need one for this job. There are people with no degrees like me doing the same work as people with masters degrees.

    I’m not young, but have no dependents,, and yet the idea of going back to school terrifies me. I don’t know what I would want to do and its so much money… I’ve never had that ambition for any particular career path. It does seem like everything requires it, and I can feel the termination of employment coming in my bones.

    Part of me says do what they want, get the numbers if i can and quality/results be darned. I just don’t know. Not entirely sure what my question is, but… any idea where to start?

    1. WellRed*

      I don’t understand this. A degree won’t make you faster and if it’s a job that’s main metric is to go faster, I agree a degree isn’t needed. Do you like the work? Is there something you think you might like to try?

      1. Two of Swords*

        No, I mean if I don’t have this particular job which was just something I happened upon, I’m not really qualified for anything else since I lack any type of degree after high school. It’s the highest pay I’ve been able to find without a degree. So in terms of looking for something without one I’m a bit worried. Make sense? Thinking more in terms of what comes after.

        And do I enjoy it? Nope. It’s not that the work itself is difficult. It’s just the go-go-go without time to breathe and never seeming to be able to do enough.

        I have been looking around and there are bookkeeping courses, but the goal with the ones I’ve found are to end up running your own business. At some point I feel a bullet will need to be bitten somewhere. And it’d be a few hundred invested as opposed to tens of thousands. So I’ll keep looking into it. But it’s not that I have a passion for numbers. I know they also have diploma programs for the same thing, but I don’t know if those are worth anything to those hiring since they’re not at least an associates.

  110. YRH*

    I reviewed a CV for purposes not related to hiring that was 115 pages. This is a field where long CVs are normal but not that long.

    1. Also an academic*

      Wut.

      Out of curiosity, how long is a “long CV” in your field? My most accomplished colleagues maybe get 15-20 pages?

      1. After 33 years ...*

        Mine currently is at 40 pages, roughly one page per year since beginning my PhD. I usually submit partial or edited versions.

        1. Also an academic*

          *eyes emoji*

          No pressure to say of course but this makes me wonder about norms across fields. My own CV is about 5 pages, I’m halfway through my PhD program and have more than a decade of experience, and while it’s a smidge short thanks to some wonky jobs early in my career, it’s not abnormally so. A PhD student 1 year into their program w/ a 40 page CV would be unheard of in my field (humanities + social sciences).

        2. Also an academic*

          Whoops I 100% read this wrong, that you were one year into your PhD. Man, it’s very Friday today. Thank you for the reply.

    2. Can't Sit Still*

      The longest CV I ever reviewed was about 200 pages for an MD. His career spanned more than 60 years with hundreds of papers and many accomplishments, but it was still excessive. Some of the older parts of it were typewritten and scanned, so it was basically a never-ending document that he only made additions to and never edited.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      My full academic-style CV is something like 8 or 9 pages. I have a colleague who applied with a CV instead of a resume to an industry job (weird, but okay) and apparently it impressed people because it was 15 pages long. The thing that I guess they didn’t notice is a lot of it was filler and duplicates – the guy included the same handful of papers under several different headings and also included things like memos and white papers (non-peer-reviewed) in his publications sections. I’m surprised he didn’t reference particularly long emails he’d written.

      If the CV were over 100 pages, I’d assume that includes pages of writing samples or even fully articles!

  111. Eleanor Shellstrop*

    Does anyone here work in audio production/public radio/podcasting/similar fields? I’m super interested in taking some courses and exploring that career path. I’ve been listening to the entire back catalog of HowSound and am just fascinated by the process of researching stories and crafting audio pieces. Would love to hear your experiences or any resources that you know of!

    1. The Smiling Pug*

      I don’t work professionally in podcasting, but I’m currently getting one set up in order to launch sometime next year. My podcast is for reviewing indie books and authors, so I don’t necessarily research stories, but tons of looking for intriguing covers/blurbs/etc, usually on Amazon. After I’ve read the book and write the review, I record the episode. As far as editing software goes, I’ve found that Protools is effective for a basic setup. For a website, I’m using Squarespace. It’s functionality for a pretty reasonable price.

    2. Other Duties as Assigned*

      Onetime public radio reporter/producer here and most-recently, a university radio instructor. Pieces like you hear on This American Life are the output of my capstone class for seniors.

      I can recommend my textbook for that class: “Sound Reporting-The NPR Guide to Audio Journalism and Production” by Jonathan Kern (University of Chicago Press 2008). An older book that still has value is “AudioCraft: An Introduction to the Tools and Techniques of Audio Production” by Randy Thom (National Federation of Community Broadcasters 1989).

      I also suggest listening online to things by the pros like Ira Glass (This American Life), David Isay (StoryCorps), Jay Allison (transom.org), Nancy Updike (Serial), Sarah Vowell (This American Life), Gwen Macsai (NPR), The Kitchen Sisters (NPR) and any segments from This American Life or the Third Coast International Audio Festival.

      Professionally, I used Adobe Audition as my platform, with a Marantz PMD660 flashcard field recorder and ElectroVoice R635 microphone. Studio microphone was an ElectoVoice RE20 and I had a Gentner SPH10 coupler for phone interviews. At home, I use Audacity, a Beringer mixer and a smaller Gentner coupler. Still using the Marantz for the field.

      Big tip-learn to be fussy about your audio levels–it’s the biggest problem new producers face. Things are either too low or (worse) too “hot” and distorted.

      If you’re doing this for public consumption, (either online or through a broadcast outlet), learn the rules about copyright, fair use, obscenity/profanity, libel, etc. If this is in the realm of true journalism, you have another layer of concerns like balance, attribution, ethics, natural sound, etc.

      One other suggestion: contact your local community radio station (not the big pro NPR one); they often will be happy to assist you and perhaps provide an outlet for your work.

      Good luck!

      1. Eleanor Shellstrop*

        Wow, thank you so much – this is fantastic! Will definitely check out your recommendations.

  112. Daisy Avalin*

    Low stakes question/vent here:
    Last week I got into work to see my cow-irker* had posted a sign up sheet for Secret Santa. That’s all good, never very expensive and we’re a relatively close work group (retail shift work, so we don’t all see each other all the time, but as a whole we get on well enough) so I’m happy enough to join in.
    However, as I read the sign up sheet, Cow-irker has labelled it a ‘naughty’ Secret Santa, and… my work persona noped right out of there. How do I say politely to the manager (who wasn’t in when Cow-irker put the sheet up, and didn’t see it before I finished my last shift) that no how no way am I buying sex toys for a coworker?

    *Context: I don’t like this woman, never have. I’ve never had such a visceral, immediate dislike for anyone like I do her – like the first time we were in the same room, we had no idea who each other was, and neither of us had spoken, but she landed right on my last nerve in hobnail boots – and I find her vulgar, nosy, rude, and generally unlikeable the more I’ve got to know her.

    Any help on wording, either around getting this changed or stopped completely? I’ll find out when I start my shift tomorrow if the manager has shut this down already, but I want to have some wording ready in case it’s needed.
    Thanks

    1. Reba*

      “I’m concerned that people may interpret this as having sexual overtones and feel really uncomfortable with that being brought into the workplace.”

      Even if it is meant as naughty in the sense of like, bring a bottle of booze instead of a candle, there is definitely a risk of someone taking it in a more risqué direction. And it should not require any further explanation — no one should want it to go there and certainly not the manager.

      1. Foxgloves*

        Exactly this. “Can we set some ground rules that no one buys booze, food, or anything they would think is inappropriate to open in front of their grandmother?” might also help.

      2. Daisy Avalin*

        Knowing my cow-irker, this is definitely meant to have sexual overtones, she’s already ‘forced’ one colleague to opt out of the last couple of Secret Santas because she bought him a blow up sheep sex toy *and* pestered him to blow it up there and then – she thought it was hilarious!
        Sadly, I suspect the manager may just see this as ‘a bit of fun’, so will try your first line and hope I can get the point across!

        1. Eldritch Office Worker*

          Any way to get that coworker to back you up so it’s coming from two people? Always stronger with more voices.

    2. Jack Bruce*

      Is it not a dirty santa, where you steal other people’s gifts if you don’t like yours? That’s where my mind went first. But definitely get some clarification on that.

      1. Daisy Avalin*

        Oh, no, no, no stealing gifts, Jack Bruce, we pick an envelope with somebody’s name in and get a gift for that person… no swaps allowed! Which I think is a stupid rule, but gifts tend to be tailored to the person so not easily swappable necessarily.

        Eldritch Office Worker, I don’t see that colleague (we both work the night shift, so only really meet if I cover an afternoon shift or at the Christmas meal!) but may see if I can leave him a note if he hasn’t already said anything to the manager.

    3. Hippo-nony-potomus*

      That’s a recipe for a hostile work environment claim. It’s also a foolish thing to be doing in a situation wherein customers could potentially see the whole thing, or overhear something about “Blow up your dirty sex sheep!”

  113. Llellayena*

    Thread on somewhat clueless/insensitive holiday gifts from your company:

    A couple years ago my company asked for everyone’s sizes so they could give us a company branded jacket. All well and good except that the women’s sizes were NOT US standard sizing (a US women’s size 8 would have needed to order an XL, and there was no XXL available) and we didn’t find out until we received the jackets. You’d think they’d learn but this year they asked for our sizes again. I pried a size chart out of them ahead this time…and same issue. I am usually a size 8/Medium and my waist size doesn’t exist on the women’s size chart, though I fit an L at waist and chest. The MEN’s size Large has my waist size (and oddly matches the women’s L hip size) but the chest is linebacker big. Can they just not get us clothing please?

    Of course last year during COVID they mailed everyone steaks without telling us to expect a package. So I arrived home from my holiday week away to a package of (fortunately still frozen) steaks on my porch. I do hope they got something different for the vegetarians…

    2. CBB*

      I have several hundred dollars worth of movie gift cards that my employer gave me over the years. Even before COVID, I never used them because I prefer to watch movies at home.

      (I know I can sell them, but I’m not sure I’d get a good price these days.)

      1. WellRed*

        I think there’s a website where you can exchange gift cards for cash or other cards. At any rate, sitting on them is of no value to you. Movies may or may not bounce back.

    3. Siege*

      I used to work for Wizards of the Coast. I still remember when they gave us a really dumb employee gift. In previous years, they’d given us an employee appreciation gift that was on the line of a custom mini or an engraved compass. Then (I assume) the budget changed and the gift one year was these cheap sunglasses that I don’t even remember if they were branded; I do remember they looked like child-sized sunglasses. I wear prescription glasses, as did about half the workforce. There were a bunch of pairs of sunglasses either outright rejected or in the trash that day. It’s surprising how crappy a “gift” you can’t use makes you feel.

    4. Cle*

      For Christmas 2020, when COVID was in full swing and a ton of restaurants were closed (and of course eating in was dangerous), my husband’s company gave out gift cards to a restaurant.

    5. The Smiling Pug*

      My first year at the company I currently work for, I went to the Christmas party. The “gifts” for the games was merchandise they couldn’t sell from the store. -_-

    6. Alexis Rosay*

      Ugh. I would just ignore the emails. Do you even want the jacket?

      My most out of touch company holiday gift was…a travel-sized hand lotion! Kind of like the ones you might pick up for free from a hotel. After a super stressful year where we all were told we’d be laid off, and then three days later told we were not being laid off.

      1. Llellayena*

        The jacket I would have used (if it fit). The (probably) fleece vest they’re getting us this year I likely won’t use, even if it fits. I need arms. But I can’t ignore the emails, they’ll just keep bugging me. They do try to get good gifts though. The umbrella and the backpack were great (even if I don’t use them because I have very functional alternate versions already). I had to give the steaks to my boyfriend (he was thrilled) since I don’t really eat steak and have no clue how to cook it. The champagne bottle got donated to a theater for a play (I hate champagne) but the wine bottle opener that came with it I still have and use (that was a milestone year).

  114. Toasty Bacon and Eggs**

    Short question here: Over the last two years, I have worked as a temp at the same temp agency and the same organization. I have a 4 month gap between the two different roles I had. One was for 10 months, and one is still going (started in February, will go on until the end of the year). How do I list this on a resume? could I combine the two roles, or should I separate them out.

    1. Reba*

      I think it makes sense to group them together, but still make clear it was 2 gigs. Depending on how you are formatting, like company first or role/title first in your entries, you could try:

      Organization Name (temporary positions)
      -Current Role, Month-Present, details
      -Previous role, Month-month, details

      If you are using role first headings, and the roles are the same or pretty similar, you could try something like

      Llama Wrangling (temporary) — Organization
      – Llama Grooming Assistant, dates etc
      – Llama Supply Assistant, dates etc.

  115. Part time Professional*

    Does anyone have suggestions for how to fight feeling excluded and out of the loop? I work two part time jobs where I’m the only part-timer there.
    It’s not an issue at one job, but at the other my team is small so it feels very close-knit. I know they aren’t intentionally leaving me out, but I always end up being the odd one out.
    It feels more like a “me” issue than a “them” issue, but I don’t know how to stop the funk I fall into when I notice it!

  116. Alice*

    I am really struggling at my new no . I love the work but there is someone who has worked in the department for 10 years and is so awful people have quit before their probation was up. My boss is well aware of this yet nothing changes. Why are these people allowed to remain in their positions?!

  117. Freelance Mentor and Gravity Tester*

    ADHD advice – Hey all, I work in a job that I find really interesting but am struggling with some things which are probably due to my ADHD (although maybe it is overall the suitability of the work for me). I have some assignments with a very short turnaround of a day (or less), others where I have a week or more. I wouldn’t be able to handle the former all the time, but I’m struggling with getting the things done which have more time and require more work and might be not as exciting, and often require me to find and read background documents, especially on days where I only have one or two meetings (and sometimes I struggle with the short turnaround documents, or I get one or two of those in the days before the longer-deadline document is due and then suddenly have less time for that). This is affecting my sleep; I’m working on other things that affect me getting to bed and falling asleep on time, but now I’m stuck in a cycle of not having enough sleep many nights for months, and one of the reasons is staying up late to finish something I could have done more work on in the days prior. I know some of this is me not estimating the time to do things correctly, although I am trying to write down how long it takes me to develop something so I can have a more accurate idea. But other times, it’s just me dithering during the days before the thing is due. I’m on medication and go to therapy bi-weekly and am trying to implement strategies (like work for 20 minutes, then off for 20 minutes) but it’s hard, especially not getting enough sleep making it harder to concentrate. Previous jobs were normally longer, research projects with long timelines (which I also struggled with doing on time, especially the planning and the analysis and writing) or management (where I struggled with doing admin things when they weren’t immediately due, like scheduling my team or doing one-on-ones), and I did better at conducting the research, answering team questions and problem-solving urgent issues (but no job is only those things).

    1. RagingADHD*

      Dithering is a real problem! So is sleep!

      IME the only way I can break this type of cycle is to clear the decks and do anything I have to do (including let my phone go dead, eat dinner at 4:30, or anything else) take my melatonin and go to bed early one night. That can often jog loose the Jenga of behavior patterns and help me start rebuilding a better routine.

      Other things that help are to make time each morning to write that day’s minimum to-do list, and to take a short walk outside at some point, maybe lunchtime.

      1. Freelance Mentor and Gravity Tester*

        That’s a good idea about the early night, I normally wait for the weekend but I’m going to attempt that during the week next time when I’m behind but not totally derailed on sleep. And to-do lists, I write them but not consistently, so I’ll try making that the first thing I do in the morning, and put walks also on them.

    2. Part time Professional*

      I’ve found that making a list breaking down those longer assignments into pieces really helps me because the task isn’t quite as daunting, which tends to be why I’m putting them off. If I do one or two of those a day, then I’m golden!

      Also echoing RagingADHD, get up and move around! I take a million bathroom breaks in a day because it means I get to leave my work and come back with slightly more energy.

      1. Freelance Mentor and Gravity Tester*

        It does help and I need to do that more often. Sometimes, though, the tasks aren’t daunting so much as boring, which I know I need to get in a better habit of rewards only after doing something, even if minimal (I all too often decide I want tea or chocolate or to read AAM, and then do it before accomplishing a set amount of work on something).

  118. Steggy Saurus*

    Following in the pattern of a letter this week, I’ve got an interview for a job on Tuesday despite the fact that I’ve only been working in my current job for three months. I am desperate to leave the current job – it was a bait and switch on the job description, I have so much less responsibility and independence than I did in my last job (from which I was laid off). And the current boss is a micromanager. It was bad enough that I started looking at job ads again about a month after I started. So here’s hoping next week’s interview goes well and that they want me.

  119. Benefits*

    A question about benefits: if you resign with two-weeks notice do you still get to submit benefits claims for those last two weeks?

    2. PollyQ*

      Yes, and your health benefits may continue through the end of the month even after your last day.

  120. Not sharing my feels*

    This is the second month in a row that our big boss has created virtual breakout groups in our monthly meeting. It’s meant to be a time to connect with coworkers, but the big boss wants to keep it work-related.

    Last month, the topic was how we’re dealing with stress. I’m not into sharing with coworkers any of my personal feelings, and frankly I don’t want to hear it either. I have a few folks that I work with that I consider friends, but these breakout groups randomize the folks and frankly, I don’t know many of the people that well. I mean, we’ve worked for the same employer for years, but our paths don’t really cross and I maybe see them in person (pre-pandemic) once a year.

    I complained to my immediate boss after the last meeting, and said, hey – some folks don’t feel like they can share, because the topic is one that we’re supposed to put on a cheerful face for and some folks aren’t feeling cheerful about the stress they’re under. Immediate boss seemed to understand.

    This month, we were supposed to talk about things that bugged us about working remotely. I kept silent, again, not wanting to share. One of the coworkers called me out and I unmuted and simply said (rather flatly) “I have nothing that I want to share”. It created an awkward moment, but honestly – I.do.not.want.to.share. Also, immediate boss happened to be in my breakout group this time.

    I do not want to seem like the resident crank that can’t get along with coworkers. That’s not who I am or what I’m known for.

    What is a polite way to decline?

    1. CBB*

      I would just say something innocuous. What bugs me about remote work? When my internet goes out. How do I deal with stress? I go for a walk. Etc.

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Couple of options come immediately to mind. One, you can make something up for yourself, maybe even by taking on something that somebody else has already said: “Ha-ha, John stole my thunder, I was going to say the same exact thing, so I’d just add …”

      Two, you can say, “Oh, I think I’ll pass on this one. Nothing comes to mind, sorry.” That’s at least more polite than “I have nothing that I want to share,” which ends with an implicit “with you people,” and may come across to others that you don’t like them very much.

  121. LocalBureaucrat*

    Should I apply for a job where I know I’ll be unhappy – just for the career progression?

    A job has come up in my organization that would be the logical next step for my career – and, while not guaranteed, I’m pretty sure I would get it if I apply. It’s an area related to my area of expertise, but not one I feel any particular affinity for. I have the support of the team I’d be managing, but my would-be manager veers between unhelpful and condescending, with a generous helping of misogyny. It’ll probably be a few years before a promotion opportunity becomes available again.

    I think the unhappiness is probably not worth the career boost – but am I overlooking something?

    2. ScifiScientist*

      I’ve done this and it is soul suckingly miserable. See what other growth or developmental opportunities there might be for you in your current position or other ways you can gain that experience.

    3. PollyQ*

      Absolutely not. This cannot possibly be the only option you have for career progression. And what you’re overlooking is the possibility of a better job at a different employer.

    4. Paris Geller*

      Nooooooooo!
      I really don’t have more to add but I wanted to add my voice to the chorus. 3 years sounds like a small amount of time when you’re content or happy, but if you get to a place where you’ll miserable every second will feel like an eternity.

  122. Anton*

    I have my annual career conversation with my manager coming up, which is where we discuss my career goals and what we need to do to accomplish them.
    How should I go about telling my manager that I don’t feel challenged and I need much more responsibility if I’m going to stay in this job? I am kind of reserved and not very good at advocating or myself.
    For reference, I have been in this position for less than a year but have received a lot of praise for my work and I am good at it.

    1. irene adler*

      “What is the career progression for someone who holds this position?” That might be an ice-breaker for you to ask your boss.
      Then, if any of the career avenues sound attractive, ask for boss to elaborate on them. Then you can ask questions (if needed) and indicate your interest in pursuing a similar career path. Unless boss is a total clod, they will realize your interest in pursuing more challenging roles.

      If the boss doesn’t go into anything that sounds appealing, then you can ask boss about what career avenues that will provide greater responsibilities or challenges you might embrace.

  123. The Dude Abides*

    I’m on pins and needles right now, but I don’t know if I should be.

    I was tentatively offered a job I interviewed for last week. It still has to go through the statewide “HR” department, which is where my concern is.

    Normally, when going from a union job to a non-union managerial job, the pay bump is 5%. But, given that the minimum “anticipated starting salary” is 50% above my current pay (in part due to the title being four levels higher than where I am at now), the tentative offer is for that 50% jump, but it has to be approved before the offer is made.

    My fear is that “HR” will try to come down on the actual offer, which is a dealbreaker for me. I know all too well the amount of chaos I’d be stepping into, and expect to be compensated accordingly.

    1. Yeah*

      If this is government that starting salary would normally be solid as it is the bottom of the pay band.

  124. Sleet Feet*

    Anyone had luck talking down a boss who wants to document that you documented something?

    It’s starting to add duplicate and triple work. Recently they created a log to log that we logged what we logged.

    1. Littorally*

      Spend a week tracking (yeah, I know, more documentation – sorry!) how much time you spend on all this redundant documenting, then take that to your boss.

      “Hey, I spent a total of 10 hours last week documenting that I’d documented something. This prevented me from completing [other task]. Is there a more efficient way to approach this, or is this the use of my time the company wants?”

    2. irene adler*

      Hmmm… are you working for my former boss?
      Sure sounds like it. He set us up with a system of scheduled tasks to do. Those tasks had ‘checker’ tasks, to make sure the assigned task was completed. Then a secondary task was created to check that the checker checked that the task was completed. In a company of 11.5 people, I ended up doing the task, checking that I did the task, and then checking that I checked that the task was performed. Rather silly. BUT! I had 100 % compliance.

      No real help here, I’m afraid. If the extra documenting is delaying things/costing the company a good chunk of change, THEN someone might step in and curtail things.

  125. Carla*

    Wow that’s awful. I think clothes are something that should be optional and that people can order themselves.

    A while back my company gave everyone a modest bonus for a busy period they had gone through, and then gave new hires who hadn’t been there during a busy period a significant uber/uber eats gift card. This may vary but especially because we are in an urban area I really liked that gift – gave me access to more uber trips or the chance to order in that I otherwise would have hemmed and hawwed about.

  126. ScifiScientist*

    Coaching/conversation advice requested – I’m a relatively new manager and just started with this team about 6 months ago. We have major systemic issues with purchasing. I’m working to try to resolve those but it is slow going. In the meantime I need to have some difficult conversations with my Admin assistant whose job it is to initiate and follow through on the purchasing actions. An important aspect is that she is not the actual person who can purchase things, she does the paperwork and someone else purchases. It is a bulls#it system and she is becoming increasingly frustrated. I’m also frustrated because she drops things when we hit roadblocks instead of following through.

    Yesterday I tried to have a discussion about how we can track these items to be sure we are at least checking on them to be sure they aren’t just sitting in the online queue waiting for the next signature. It went nowhere as she kept talking over me (meetings are online) and venting about the process. I’m not blaming her about what has already gone wrong, I’ve made mistakes and assumptions too. I just want to make sure we are doing everything we can on our side to at least do all the steps we have control over. And sometimes I need reminders when it is my turn to sign since I manage 15 other people and this is a tiny part of what we do.

    I’m thinking of sending an email since I don’t want to have another conversation about how frustrating the whole thing is.
    What do you think of: While we work with management to improve the systemic issues with purchasing I’d like to improve our tracking so we can be sure we know where all our requests are in the process. Please start a tracking list/spreadsheet with each of the actions and the actions and approvals that they needs. For our weekly check-in meeting, please check the ### system to see where each action is in the approval chain and let me know who is the next person who needs to sign.

    Comments and recommendations welcome.

    1. PollyQ*

      I have no doubt that your purchasing system is indeed bullshit, but I think your bigger problem is an admin who drops the ball on important tasks and isn’t able (or willing) to have a productive conversation about the subject, to the point where you feel the need to solve her organizational problem for her and communicate via email. It sounds like you kinda lost control of that meeting, so my main recommendation for you is to practice some scripts for future conversations where she may derail. E.g., “I understand you’re frustrated, and I’m working to change the system, but in the meantime, this is the reality that we’re dealing with.” It is entirely reasonable for you to require her to proactively let you know when something’s gotten stuck, or when it’s your turn to take the next step. Your idea of a tracking spreadsheet and a weekly agenda item sounds fine, and I hope it helps. But this may not be your only issue with this report.

      1. ScifiScientist*

        You are exactly right. When I read your comment I can totally see how I’m trying to side-step the difficult conversation here and just attempt to solve the immediate need but not necessarily putting in place the actual management that will fix the issue.

  127. FiguringOutHowToBeKindaDisabled*

    Hopefully I’m not too late to get some input, but I was wondering what everyone’s opinions are on asking for a reduced work schedule as an ADA accommodation? What sort of negative effects to a career could come from it?

    For backstory on my specific situation and why I’m thinking about it, I’ve been struggling with symptoms for years, but recently got a diagnosis. The effects of the illness are that I’m in near constant pain and the meds they put me on to try and help come with a plethora of negative side effects and aren’t as effective as we (dr and I) would like. I’m also pretty young, in my first job out of college (started working about the same time the pandemic started), and that’s what has really pushed me to figure out my health. If you’re a good student, you can easily work ahead and skip class and rest whenever you need to. Not so in a 9-5, and I have REALLY been struggling with it. I currently work as a software developer, so working reduced hours might actually improve my work output, as it’s difficult to concentrate when I spend most of the day exhausted and in pain, not to mention that I have hardly any juice left at the end of the day for making dinner or keeping up anything resembling a life outside of work, so I’m getting a little depressed as well.

    I’ve done some reading on it, and the internet says it’s allowed, but I know that whatever sort of accommodation I ask for, there’s going to be side effects as to how I’m perceived and future career opportunities, but I haven’t been around long enough to know what those are.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      What you’re most likely to be judged on is your work output, and it sounds like that might actually improve. People might grumble at first, but the lucky thing is you already have a job and they’re required to accommodate you, so you get to start there and show you can work on a reduced schedule effectively.

      It sounds like you’re not client facing and you don’t have a ton of meetings or anything like that? You might be perceived as difficult if you’re hard to get time with, or you might get handled with kid gloves a bit at first, but honestly you’re in the ideal field for this kind of accommodation and it might not reflect on you at all.

      1. FiguringOutHowToBeKindaDisabled*

        Thanks EldritchOfficeWorker. I have had to cover for a lot of client-facing stuff and meetings recently because we’re a little understaffed and all the more senior developers are needed to actually develop some of the more complicated project stuff, but we’ve been trying to hire more people and finally got someone to share some of the load with who will be starting next week, so I’ll hopefully be able to transition off a couple of meetings and free up some time that way. But they are reorganizing next month, so we’ll see if that just ends up with me having to attend more meetings.

        Do you have any thoughts on how a reduced schedule might be differently perceived than simply working from home all the time? I’ve heard a lot of people with my condition end up doing that, but I worry about being the only person on the team who’s working remotely and having to deal with the inevitable “out of sight, out of mind”.

    2. rl09*

      I think some employers could make the argument that what you want is not a “reasonable” accommodation, though. Asking for a reduced work schedule is essentially asking to go part-time, which would mean they no longer have to offer you health insurance, a full-time salary, etc. So first, that might not be what you want to do from a financial perspective. And second, I am not a lawyer, but my guess is that it would legal for an employer to say, “Well we posted that the job as a full-time position, and that’s what we need in this role, so converting it to a part-time position is not something we can accommodate.”

      But there could be alternatives rather than just reducing your hours. You could ask for WFH or more flexibility, but I don’t think you want to frame it as a “reduced schedule.”

      1. FiguringOutHowToBeKindaDisabled*

        The ADA does require that reduced work schedules be accommodated unless an employer can prove that they really do need 40 hours of work a week, which is difficult to do for most office jobs. The point about health insurance is prudent though, I’d need to look into it. I don’t mind if they reduce my salary; I’m jaded enough with the economic situation of the US that I don’t have aspirations beyond a reliable car and a cheap apartment, which is easily covered with even a part-time tech job.

    3. Disabled Attorney*

      I’m not in the US so I can’t speak to how a change in hours could affect health insurance so that may be a first thing to check.
      I powered through 7-8 years of my current job feeling as you describe before my body basically forcefully told me not to. In retrospect, I wish I’d asked for accommodations earlier. I now work 80% of full time on Monday/ Tuesday/ Thursday/ Friday schedule which is a massive improvement for me. That midweek day off is a gamechanger and I highly recommend it if work conditions or commute are contributing to pain.
      I did a phased return to work after my body had its meltdown and I found that even quite small increments in time make a big difference – increasing the day by half an hour could be really significant. From the opposite point of view, it could be that you find that quite a small reduction in working hours would provide more breathing space.
      I do think there’s a risk of slowing career progression, but if I didn’t reduce my hours there’s a risk I could get ill enough to be unable to work at all.

      1. FiguringOutHowToBeKindaDisabled*

        Thanks for sharing your experience. I actually know someone in my office who works 4 10-hour days with his day off being Wednesday (because of custody stuff with his child), so my company may be amicable to letting me take time off in the middle of the week. It sounds like a good suggestion.

    4. Skeeder Jones*

      If you are in the US, you might want to take a look at having intermittent FMLA. You would get certified for x many hours a week and you decide when/if you need to use them. If you have a bad week and need more than your certified amount, you can get a note from the doctor to that effect. It might be more workable for you than simply a reduced work week.

  128. PTO norms?*

    My company (in the US, near the California bay area) only offers new hires 40 hours/year of vacation time, and it has to be accrued. Is that kind of stingy, or am I expecting too much? (It is not remotely the tech industry.)

    1. PollyQ*

      Sure is! 2 weeks per year is a pretty standard starting vacation allotment, and many companies offer more. PTO having to be accrued is also pretty standard though, so I can’t really fault them for that. But this is likely to make hiring quality candidates a real struggle. (Also, *waves at you* from San Mateo county!)

    2. The Dude Abides*

      Is that the only PTO on offer? I have three different buckets of PTO in my current role.

    3. CBB*

      In my experience (also in California), it’s at the low end, but not unheard of.

      My first job gave me that much (plus sick leave in a separate bucket). I started in late spring, and by the end of the year I had enough PTO to take off the week between Christmas and New Years Day. And by the next summer I again had enough to take off the week of 4th of July. It wasn’t great, but as a young person I was able to make it work.

      Today, I would negotiate for more.

    4. Paris Geller*

      Stingy, but not unprecedented. Every place I’ve worked started at at least 80 hours of vacation time, though it was all on an accrual system.

    5. PTO norms?*

      I feel like i should specify further, it’s a construction industry retail store (local, not Home Depot or Lowes), so not remotely white collar. My last job with benefits was in wine, which is a whole different ball game.

      1. A*

        I started my career out at a construction supply company and in my experience at the time (I moved on to another industry ~6 years ago) 2 weeks PTO was standard. Also I also think it is indeed stingy! We also had five sick days in a separate bucket, although if that wasn’t a legal requirement in my state I’m sure they wouldn’t have even offered that.

        Now I’m in the CPG industry, and while it varies the US standard seems to be 3 weeks PTO/unlimited sick days.

      2. Paris Geller*

        That’s probably generous by retail standards, then. I think many agree that the benefits offered (when offered at all) in retail/services industries to be appalling, so not condoning the paltry PTO, but it’s unfortunately probably better than what many places offer.

  129. MexicanAAMFan*

    I’m starting a new job next week, my onboarding is on Monday. I’ve worked for the goverment and in education but this is my first dip into corporate life. Any tips? I will also gladly take good vibes and funny puns.

    1. Cheering section*

      Congratulations! I don’t have much in the way of advice other than take notes and slow deep breaths as needed, but you got this.

  130. Cheap Ass Treats*

    Not a question, just a story I thought you all might enjoy.

    My boss, despite making a good salary, is very frugal. We’re talking “won’t get condiments on their sandwich if they cost extra” frugal. One time, said boss decided to bring in treats to celebrate a special occasion for an employee. The treats themselves weren’t cheap, but not extravagant either. The kicker was that afterwards, the boss emailed everyone except the “special employee” telling us exactly how much we owed them for the treats. It came out to a little over a dollar per person.

    1. CW*

      He bought the treats. Did you ask for them? My guess is no. He shouldn’t have to make you pay. It may only be a little over a dollar, but I wouldn’t be happy nonetheless. It’s not like you agreed to it anyway. Plus, if he is cheap, why did he buy the treats in the first place?

      1. pancakes*

        Ha! I like this idea.

        In 1990, Spy magazine sent checks for increasingly minuscule amounts to the richest people in the world, to see who might deposit them. Eventually they got down to $0.13, and the only people who deposited were Donald Trump and an arms dealer.

    3. Choggy*

      Hehe, some of the cheapest people I know are well-paid. Whenever we had a lunch and learn at a law firm I worked at, there was a senior attorneys who always was the first to “lunch” but never stayed to “learn”. :)

  131. TechWorker*

    People who worked in one company a long time – did you eventually regret it? Are there disadvantages to staying in one place?

    I have worked for one company since graduating – Overall I enjoy the work and my current manager is really really great. I have had multiple promotions and have a reasonable amount of responsibility (team of ~12, on grad recruitment hiring panel). I really really like my colleagues. I am paid well – but suspect significantly less than the other managers with similar sized teams, as they’ve all been here longer (and they will also have significantly more equity than I do due to some specific company history).

    At a family party this weekend my (slightly tipsy) cousin talked about how important it is to change companies and that employers will always screw you over if they can get away with it, and the only way to significantly increase compensation is to leave. I don’t think I’m being screwed *over* but I am also fairly sure that he’s right in many cases in my industry and I could get more money elsewhere.

    But… I’ve never joined a company as anything other than entry level (see internships, graduate role). I’ve never even seen managers come in from other companies because my site basically only hires grads. I don’t have any references because all my managers still work here! What if I am actually useless and all my knowledge is company specific? I realise by this argument I can never leave and realistically I probably will want to do so at some point even if not right now! Any advice from folks who’ve worked somewhere a long time and either left or ended up not leaving and regretted it?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Depends on the company, but it sounds like your cousin has been burned or is a little bitter (which is okay! there’s a lot of horror stories). In my experience I’ve preferred staying at places a long time because my relationships are stronger, my internal knowledge is respected, and I know what I’m doing. But it will depend on the place and the job. I also find I have more capital to make sure I don’t get screwed over when I stay somewhere.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        In response to the comments below it’s worth noting I work for a consulting company which is by nature very up on competitive salary so there’s always data I’m being paid fairly. I moved into this position fairly recently but hope to stay here a long time. But I did get a big bump coming here – changing jobs often does increase your earnings.

        1. TechWorker*

          Thanks – I definitely have a good amount of capital here and have faith that my manager thinks I do a good job and will continue to advocate for pay rises. But we’re also working within a corporate structure where there’s a definite limit to what each rise can be (Eg, my report who has more years of experience but objectively an ‘easier’ job, is on 20k more and with pay rises tied to percentages I think I’d have to wait years plus probably take on MORE responsibility to get to that level). Idk… maybe I need to advocate for myself more clearly prior to raise conversation time.

    2. LDN Layabout*

      I prefer staying put but I know it affects my earning potential. I’m looking to leave my employer and money is the only reason.

      1. TechWorker*

        Does your employer know this? I have a pretty good relationship with both my manager and my managers manager and idk if letting them know money is the main reason I would consider leaving is a positive or just threatening something I don’t want to follow through :p

    3. irene adler*

      There’s pros and cons.
      Pros: I agree with what Eldritch Office Worker wrote.
      Cons: Some places I’ve interviewed at seem to think being at one company for a very long time is a liability. That maybe I’m not up-to-date on skills and such. Or worse, there’s a very bad reason I’ve not worked at too many places. They don’t want to find out that reason.

      You might interview at a few places and see what your value is. That can determine if you are being undervalued by your current employer.

      The biggest “con” for me has been the lack of salary increase since I have stayed on for over two decades. My salary is embarrassingly low for those in a similar position elsewhere.

      1. TechWorker*

        Thank you for responding! I did interview a bit a few years back when I was not really enjoying my job, but I think it would be different doing so now (Eg then I was looking at s/w dev roles and feeling like I was a bit out of the loop, whereas now I have decent mgmt experience and would be applying for different roles). I feel a bit funny about interviewing without any real intention to take the job but maybe that’s ok :p

    4. Anonymous Luddite*

      I won’t say “regret” but it does feel a little weird to look at my resume with 25 years of work experience at three companies, especially compared to others who are NOT considered job-hoppers who have 8-12 jobs in that same time period.
      That said, your cousin does have a point that one company’s annual raise structure doesn’t always compete with the job market norms. The 20% raise was a pleasant surprise when I got a new job after my previous (14 year) job.

    5. Coenobita*

      I worked at the same company for almost exactly 10 years after getting my undergraduate degree. The pay issue others are mentioning was very real, but I was also in an environment where I knew all my peers’ salaries (everyone needed to know each other’s billing rates when planning projects) so it was straightforward to advocate for myself when necessary. And I more than caught up salary-wise when I got my current job. I also did use some current employees of the company as references (though not my direct manager at the time). Since I had known them for years, I knew them well enough to be comfortable doing that!

      I do not in any way regret staying that whole time. I eventually left mostly because my Best Manager Ever also moved on – if she had stayed I’d probably still be there – and I sort of felt like “if I don’t try something new now, I never will.” There’s no harm in looking around, but you’re definitely not ruining your career by staying!

  132. NekoMich*

    Two years ago my company implemented a knowledge base system. I was selected as a billing subject matter expert and have been working with the system since implementation. This includes proposing a migration to a system that integrates better with the help desk sytem we currently use. Recently the Coordinator moved to a new company and her position came open. She left a recommendation that I was up to date with the varying projects and in the 1.5 months of the time for interviews to happen, I was the one management would come to regarding questions and would (voluntarily) provide updates to the projects.

    Sadly I wouldn’t be writing if I got the position. When I did not I began job searching immediately. One of the reasons I was told I was passed over for the role was that I had not worked in the Technical Support department (something my predecessor had not done either) and despite proving I have a firm knowledge of resolving technical issues, not actually helping a customer with a technical issue directly meant I wouldn’t be able to relate to the role.

    Today I received a direct message (we use Slack to communicate) informing me who was chosen for the position. This person has also not worked in Technical Support, which set of alarm bells for me. What really got me was that I was asked to then train this person. How normal is it for someone to be told they don’t qualify for a position, but we want you to train the person we hired instead?

    1. Colette*

      That’s pretty normal. You’re the current expert; you’re training them to get them up to speed.

      (Maybe they offer something you don’t; maybe the company made a mistake. But either way, it’s their call to make.)

    2. DrunkAtAWedding*

      I’d be having emotions about this.:/

      What was the time gap between the feedback about your application and this person being hired? Maybe the lack of direct technical support experience was a factor for you, but the person chosen had a totally different skill that made up for it somehow? And when they gave your feedback, they knew about the former but hadn’t yet considered that person and thought about the latter? If they had, maybe they’d have said ‘the lack of X and Y is a weakness’ not just ‘the lack of X’, if that makes sense. There might be someone to ask who could shed some light on the whole thing?

      It’s completely possible that they are being unfair or making bad decisions, and/or that the feedback they gave isn’t honest or complete. You’d know better than I would if that’s a possibility.

  133. TMImagnet*

    This might get buried, but I would love any advice on something I’ve been struggling with with my boss, which I really need to address today. TLDR: what can I say to get my boss to stop editing/nitpicking a document and accept a final version?

    I’ve been working on a project, revamping an external facing booklet for my organization, for far too many months now. It started with the instruction to just make simple changes & update outdated information, with the goal of a shorter and more visually-appealing document. I’m more of a “subject matter expert” and am working with our graphic designer to incorporate my changes. Unfortunately, my relatively new boss has replied to each draft with major edits and brand new instructions no less than 5 times — including changes to things that existed in the drafts throughout but that she didn’t mention until the 4th or 5th go around. Many of her edits, in my opinion, are more personal preference (i.e. “change this image because all the yellow is distracting”) and vague/confusing (“it needs to be more concise — take a look at this very long and wordy document as an example” or “just work with the graphic designer to make this look…better”) than actual issues, but obviously I happily make those changes (or try to get clarification on the vague notes, which is often difficult to do) unless I can share context or explanation for why I don’t totally agree. I am, however, usually pretty passive and agreeable, so I haven’t pushed back much at all or done much advocating for my point of view and decisions — yet!

    It’s she’s frustrated with “having to go back and forth so much on these drafts” and “wants this done in good shape as soon as possible,” but she’s changed the goal post so many times that I have no confidence any changes will be enough. In fact, she didn’t make any edits to an earlier draft, gave me positive feedback, and asked me to share it with our leadership team, so I was shocked when she later came back with a big list of changes. In general I find her a bit hard to communicate with, and she basically ignored/side stepped when I mentioned that I was surprised to have such major edits after she seemed pleased with the draft the week before. I’ve tried Alison talking points on her with this and other communications things, but I’m really not having much luck.

    I worked with our designer to make all the changes she requested in this most recent draft, and I’m really ready to move on from this project. I’m sure the designer is too, and I’m embarrassed to have to keep returning to them with new, sometimes silly edits. Is there anything I can say when I present her with this version that might get her to stop being so nit-picky, or at the very least to give me ALL of her remaining edits at once?

    I’m wondering if walking her through WHY I like this version and why I made the choices I did might help quell some of her editing impulses. I thought of starting by saying something along the lines of “I’ve worked with [designer] to incorporate all of the edits we discussed, and I’m really pleased with this version because of X, Y, and Z. I think X really captures the spirit we’re going for, based on the example document you referred me to, while staying consistent to the tone and voice of all of our public-facing collateral. I know you wanted page X to look nicer, and I think we’ve achieved that with this, this, and this — I made the choice to include X here because Y.”

    Any advice for dealing with this?

    1. Reba*

      I think your last graf is a good idea. But, some people are just like this so its effectiveness may be limited :(

      As another strategy, I also wonder about pleading on behalf of the designer and their time — it’s such a waste of both your and her time to be doing that! Maybe you could say, “I’d like to be sure to get this into final draft state, because Penelope’s time is limited and it’s not efficient to keep sending so many changes to her.”

      Or, if there is someone else higher up who wants this done, invoke their authority a bit, and set a firm deadline to show it to that person for review (instead of just “asap”)? Then you could say there should be no further changes after X date so there’s time for the approval, final layout etc.

      1. TMImagnet*

        This is great advice, thank you! In fact, the designer is going out on sabbatical soon (my boss knows this) so we really do need to stick to a firm deadline.

    2. PrairieEffingDawn*

      When is the deadline for this project to be complete? If there isn’t one, I think that could be part of your problem.

      As a designer for many years, it’s not uncommon for certain projects to go through endless rounds of edits. But at some point, it has to go off to press, get posted to a website, or otherwise make its debut into the world. There is no such thing as perfect. Of course you don’t want a business material to enter circulation riddled with errors but at a certain point, you have to settle on the staff photos being circle or square shaped, which is the kind of silly stuff it sounds like your boss is nitpicking about.

      When the deadline is nebulous I think it’s easy for people to skim over details they’d normally catch if they knew something had to go to print soon. I think working with the designer to somehow impose a print date might help your boss get a little more serious about making the changes that are most important and learning to live with the ones that aren’t.

      1. TMImagnet*

        You’re totally right. I did make the mistake of starting without a firm deadline (we established a rather loose one at the beginning, and ended up passing it by because my boss had more edits and felt it wasn’t ready) but we do have what I’m considering a firm stopping point now. It sounds like I should reiterate and really stress that deadline in this and subsequent conversations and keep reminding her as it approaches. Thanks!

    3. RagingADHD*

      It may be too late to deal with today, but IME, sitting down with the person to review edits in real time cuts way back on how much nitpicking they will do.

      I might pitch this as “I know you’re frustrated with all the back and forth, so let’s block out some time so we can make sure I’m getting all your feedback at once, and we can wrap this up.”

  134. DrunkAtAWedding*

    I’m applying for graduate jobs atm. One of them has had me submit a work/education history, as normal – and, to their credit, they did give me the option of uploading my CV and letting their system put the info in the right boxes – then do a situation judgement test, a numerical test, and a logical patterns test, and, finally, do something they call a ‘video interview’. It is video but it’s not really an interview – their system tells me the question and then gives me some time to think and record an answer. Is this a thing now? As far as I can tell, a real human being won’t look at any of this until after I’ve recorded my videos. The tests were marked automatically (and they would have needed the process there if I’d scored below a certain amount). That seems like a lot from me with nothing from them.:/

    I don’t totally object. I don’t like interviews because it can be hard for me to pull information together if I’m on the spot. I haven’t started the video interview yet, because I want to do some research first, but I think it might be easier to think of my answers and record them than to try to do that process in front of a real person who’s waiting for me to speak. I quite like tests as well, because I’d rather sit down and do a maths test than try to tell someone why I think I’m good at maths and might do well in a data/numbery type role.

    So yes, has anyone else had to do one of these? Any thoughts?

    1. LDN Layabout*

      I can’t speak to the video interview, but a lot of graduate scheme type jobs will do the numerical etc. tests.

      Why? High input/output. Graduate schemes will tend to get a bunch of applications and there really isn’t much to differentiate candidates the way there is when you have people further on in their careers. They also tend to be recruiting a cohort vs. a single person. So these types of tests will weed out a decent % of applicants before they have to then go through the many, many applications.

    2. CurtailedWhale*

      I had to do these to get hired at my current job (software development). I found it unpleasant and I don’t think the company does it anymore because of the negative feedback they’ve received. But it certainly wasn’t the end of the world, and while this is my first job out of college (so you can take this with a grain of salt) they’re still a good company to work for and it’s a good job. I’d consider it a yellow flag.

    3. RagingADHD*

      I haven’t done a recorded video interview, but I hear about them a good bit. I think they are becoming popular in a lot of fields because the employer can have several people review it asynchronously.

  135. Stressed former employee*

    I’m looking for some perspective here. I left my very difficult job about two months ago, because I had a new, better job lined up. I didn’t have the best relationship with my boss in this job, we never really clicked, but I learnt to work with her, and we were always cordial and professional. When I got the new offer, I did everyone my power to guarantee a smooth transition: gave a bit over two weeks notice (2.5!), left all my procedures and the status of my projects in writing, met regularly with the person in charge of my transition and kept him updated on everything. My boss, however, was nowhere to be found during my notice period, she didn’t show up to my status meetings and I didn’t had a direct interaction with her after I gave her my notice. For my farewell email, her response was “thanks for always being professional. Best of luck”. During my exit interview with HR, they asked about my relationship with her and I said it was cordial and professional, but I was looking forward to a management style that was better suited for me (I know I could have skipped that, but I made a conscious choice to say that). Fast forward to today, when my former coworker reached out to me and says “the girl who replaced you is leaving after a month, but she’s under the impression that you left in bad terms with the boss”.

    I tried so hard to build rapport with my former boss, and even when that didn’t happen, I was always professional and did my best to leave everything in order, which I think I did (I only got one call from the person in charge to ask where one of the files was!)… I’m so mad she’s giving the impression that I was anything less than professional. I want to yell at her, but I know better than that. Other than skipping the comment to HR, is there something I should have done? Or could do now?

    1. Reba*

      Unless more was said, I don’t think “you were on bad terms with the boss” impugns your professionalism or anything! To be clear, it is unpleasant to think that someone doesn’t think well of you. But I mean, the replacement person is leaving, they don’t like the boss either.

      I think your comment to HR was totally in bounds and mild, and may not be in play here at all (I think you are thinking HR told Boss, and Boss told new hire something? But clearly Boss knew you two were not bosom buddies even without the exit interview, so it could all be from her anyway).

      What you can do now is try to A) focus on being glad that they are not your boss anymore and B) consider speaking to former HR and mayyyyyybe Former Boss about what kind of reference for you would be given in future.

    2. RagingADHD*

      I think it would behoove you to consider both the source, and your reaction.

      If the new person is leaving after a month, she may mean by “bad terms” that she thought you didn’t get along with the boss any better than she did. (Which sounds like it’s true, actually).

      You don’t know that the boss is impugning your professionalism. The person leaving may have heard about the “bad terms” from this gossipy coworker.

      I generally look askance at people who go out of their way to tell me that “so and so said this about you.” Especially when there is no purpose to be served, and nothing at stake but emotional upset.

      You didn’t get along with the boss / the boss didn’t get along with you. Apparently that is generally known by the people who observed you in the job. The new person agrees with you.

      You’re not being slandered, this is just other people seeing the same reality you saw.

  136. Ash1149*

    My manager (~35 y/o female) has a habit of calling my younger female colleague “girl”. It’s often to actually congratulate her or say things like “this girl is on fire!” But I feel it’s super sexist and demeaning as my colleague is a woman who is probably only a few years younger than us. Should I say something to my manager or let it go (since it’s not directed towards me)?

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      Are you close enough with this colleague to ask if it bothers her? It wouldn’t bother me in that context, I think my older colleagues would probably say something like that to each other. But I also wouldn’t *say* it so I know intellectually it’s not great. I’d check with her before you spend capital on it.

    2. PrairieEffingDawn*

      I’d let it go since it’s not about you–I’m in the same age group and would personally not be bothered by someone calling me girl, especially in the context you’re describing it. If it were directed toward you and it really bothered you then that’d be a different story but IMO it’s really not a place for you to spend your own capitol if you’re not involved.

    3. Paris Geller*

      I dunno, I do get what the other commenters are saying about how since it’s not directly about you and it’s often in a congratulatory tone to let it go, but I know that I was the “girl” for several years since until recently I’ve always been the youngest at any place I’ve worked. In my past situations, I really would have appreciated a older coworker with more capitol speaking against it when I felt I couldn’t.

      1. PrairieEffingDawn*

        I see the value in this but I think the question asker would benefit from asking her colleague how she feels about it first. I think I’d feel embarrassed by someone going to bat for me about something that didn’t bother me at all.

        Also–I think this is tricky because “girl” could bother some people, but not others. If the term being used was less ambiguously pejorative I’d be more likely to advocate for just saying something.

    4. DrunkAtAWedding*

      Tbh, I call my (33-year-old) self ‘girl’ in my head, and I would not mind if someone else referred to me that way, as long as there weren’t other condescending overtones. I think it might be possible your colleague feels the same way, in which case it would be weird to say something. Ofc, if you knew she didn’t, and felt more like you about it, then bringing it up would be more likely to be a good thing. If you can’t tell, I’d go with the other commenters and leave it alone.

    5. CBB*

      I think context matters. If you think of the literal meaning of “girl” — female child — then yes, calling an adult woman a girl is sexist and infantilizing.

      On the other had, “this girl is on fire” alludes to an empowering Alicia Keys song. If your boss means to suggest that your coworker is like the subject of that song, I’m not sure if there’s anything wrong with that. Especially if your boss herself would be happy to be receive that compliment, and all of this is well understood by your worker.

  137. Little Fish*

    I’m currently job hunting (how unusual!) and trying to actually get start in a new job I haven’t tried before other than a very brief 2 month sort of adjacent job over a decade ago. So, of course I have no clue what some of the lingo in the job ads means. Would someone be able to translate what this might mean into actual job responsibilities? It’s a simple office clerk type of job for a manufacturing company and the job descriptions mentions “Assist with trade shows and reservations” as well as “Supporting our sales team”. I’m totally confused. It sounds more like an office admin position than a simple clerk. Any idea if either of those would mean being on the phone often for calls? That would be a deal breaker for me. I would hope the trade shows part would only mean traveling the US as I’m not fluent in the languages of the countries where they have the other offices.

    I have a fairly good idea what the rest of the job description means, but those two phrases are the ones I’m confused about. (If anyone wants the full description I can copy it. It’s a very short cryptic bulleted list. The list of benefits is longer than the description itself!)

    1. PrairieEffingDawn*

      I think this will really be impossible to know until you get a chance to ask in an interview situation.

      Assist with trade shows and reservations could mean attending and helping set up materials for trade shows, or it could mean placing online orders and making reservations online for your colleagues who attend. But orders and reservations can’t always be made online so there might be times you have to make phone calls.

      I’d assume that supporting the sales team would mean general admin tasks as needed–helping with mailings, printing materials, possibly phone calls and spreadsheet work. It could also mean none of those things though, you’d benefit by asking for clarity during an initial phone screen.

      I myself am not totally sure what the difference is between an office clerk and office admin and my guess is that different hiring managers would have different ways of defining these roles. I work in a fairly specialized field and even descriptions for my job title can vary wildly from company to company!

      1. Little Fish*

        Drat! I wondered if the interview would be the only way to find out. Thanks for your advice though! If it helps anything (for job titles) the company is german, so maybe it’s a cultural or translation quirk? Can’t hurt to apply and give it a shot. I can do the rest of the things listed in the description and one of the key tasks of the job apparently seems to be reviewing long documents for hours so I can hope there’s less phone time involved.

        1. PrairieEffingDawn*

          Yes, you have nothing to lose by applying! And it’s likely you’d have a simple phone screen with HR before doing any formal interviewing with the hiring manager, so that’s where you can as a lot of those questions and decide for yourself whether you’re interested enough to move further in the interview process.

          Also, I’m curious to know why the phone call thing is a deal breaker, if you’re comfortable sharing?

          1. Little Fish*

            Ok! I’ll try asking in the phone screen if that happens first.

            I don’t mind sharing. Basically I have trouble processing or understanding information delivered in an audio format. And the phone is THE worst method by far. I can do phone calls and auditory based calls, but it takes ten times the concentration to keep my focus (thank you undiagnosed ADD) and my brain still will lag behind. Basically if I’m asked a question, my brain decides to take a good long minute before what was said registers and I can give a good response. Add in accents and/or not being able to see the person speaking and it gets worse. I nod and vaguely agree to a lot of stuff during random (non work) chats with coworkers because I’m literally not catching more than maybe 20% of what they are talking about because my work is very noisy and so many international/foreign workers. *sighs* So, phones are my nemesis. I love emails. I love stuff in writing. Text me galore. Just pleeeease don’t call unless it’s urgent.

  138. Too many hats for this salary*

    Just want to vent a little.

    I received a job offer recently for a position that would be a step forward in my career that was mind-numbly below average. While this would have been a new area of work in a sense, I have nearly 10 years work experience and about 6 of those 10 in related, albeit indirectly, experience. For context, the position I was going for, without any experience and only a degree (which I have), goes for an average of 50k (not including benefits) in the area it was based. They offered me 38.

    I ultimately turned down the role but OMG, the socialization as a woman to not ever negotiate or ask for more is so very really and was in full force. Just THINKING about even ADDRESSING the salary issue was terrifying in a way that I had not expected and I nearly had a panic attack just sending the super soft worded email asking to discuss it. Logically, I know better than this. I actively work with people on their resumes and guiding them towards roles that would suit them, but fudge monkies is it hard to advocate for things when its for myself.

    At least now I’m only feeling insulted.

    1. Eldritch Office Worker*

      It is. I’m glad you didn’t take it. Did you tell them it was because of the salary?

      1. Too many hats for this salary*

        I did indeed. There was a bit of humming and hawing about how the low pay was because I didn’t have ‘direct experience’ with an aspect of the job but it became obvious very quickly that despite this being a position in HR, they didn’t expect me to be aware of the market rates and were not prepared for a candidate to negotiate.

          1. Too many hats for this salary*

            Quite. Now if only I could somehow punch that obnoxious little voice in my head that keeps whining nonsensically about ingratitude and passing up opportunities…she’s blindly emotional and gives bad advice.

            1. Eldritch Office Worker*

              Does she like pizza? Mine likes pizza. Tell her you can’t buy pizza with the money they offered you.

            2. PollyQ*

              Try asking her why you should feel grateful for an insulting low offer, and remind her that if you took this job, you’d be passing up all the other opportunities out there, some of which are bound to be better.

    2. CW*

      I am glad you turned it down. Had you taken it, you most likely would have been miserable. And boy do I know, because I made that mistake once before.

      I hope you get an offer in the near future that is willing to pay what you are worth. From experience, if an employer offers you a low salary to begin with, that particular employer will most likely continue to find ways to undervalue you. Glad you won’t learn it the hard way like I did.

      1. Too many hats for this salary*

        I have to say, it was probably more insulting to me because I am actually currently employed FT, at a salaried position (admittedly also underpaid, but that’s a different issue) only 20 min max from home. They wanted me to double my commute at minimum and effectively take a pay cut once travel and fuel costs were factored in.

        I’m crazy, not stupid.

      2. PrairieEffingDawn*

        I also took a pay cut for a job whose initial offer was insultingly low, and it was just the first of many, many red flags. It was my least favorite job ever. My last day there is today! :)

  139. Littorally*

    Any advice on blocking out noises when you can’t wear headphones? My coworker came back to the office with a health food kick, and all her foods now are LOUD! Apples, carrots, and celery seem to be the entirety of her work diet. She sits right behind me and it’s CRUNCH, CRUNCH, CRRRRRRRRRUNCH all day long.

    I’m loath to ask her to stop eating healthy, but I can’t wear headphones when I need to be ready to take a call, and the noise is making me twitch.

    1. BlueBelle*

      *stab stab stab* I hat food noises. Would a white noise machine be allowed? I use a white noise machine when I am not on calls to drown out the noise my husband is making.

    2. WellRed*

      You can’t ask her to stop eating healthy but can you ask her to eat more quietly? I love celery but it’s LOUD and when I was in the office, I’d take a break and eat it elsewhere cause I knew it annoyed people. Fir the record, I hated my coworkers gum cracking and loathe crinkly wrappers ; )

      1. Littorally*

        More quietly is possible, eating somewhere else is currently not possible. Our break room has big “please do not eat in here” signs up for social distancing and our cafeteria is closed :(

    3. allathian*

      I assume you’re using a landline office phone to take the calls? A noise-canceling headset for a landline phone might be an option. Some models are biaural, so they cover both ears, and cost around $100, which may or may not be a problem for your employer.

      1. LGC*

        Or…some “landline” systems might actually be VoIP, and can be routed through your computer. In that case, you might be able to pick up calls using your workstation as the “phone” instead. (And then you get an excuse to wear headphones.)

        Although…is she loud enough to be heard on calls? That might be reason enough to bring it up with her.

  140. TheWaitingGame*

    Hello! I have a question about following up on an application if another offer comes along- the best time to do it, how best to go about it, and whether it even makes sense to in this situation. I submitted a resume & cover letter about a month ago for Company A, and about a week later, they called to let me know they had my application and the hiring process was taking awhile, but that my application was good. Obviously, no promises and they weren’t able to give me any info on timelines, so I’ve been trying to take Alison’s advice and put it out of my mind. But, for the first time since I submitted the application, another promising opportunity has come along at Company B. I’ve interviewed with Company B before, and while that job wasn’t a match for my level of experience, I did click really well with the interviewer. They’ve now posted a job that is, on paper at least, exactly the role I’m looking for, and more or less the same role that Company A has advertised, although for personal reasons, I would much, much prefer the role at Company A. My question is: if I move along in the hiring process for Company B, at what point, if at all, should I follow up with Company A, and how should I do it/phrase it? It’s a very small industry, so taking a job knowing I would leave after a very short period of time if a better offer came along and burning that bridge would be likely to cause awkwardness down the road, but I would also so, so prefer the role at Company A that I don’t want to give up on that opportunity just because something else came along first. Has anyone had good luck moving a slow hiring process along because they got another offer somewhere else first?

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      If it’s been 3 weeks since the last contact with Company A, it might be worth following up now to ask if they’ve firmed up the timeline at all. That way you’re at least working with the most current information. If they still have no info, see what B has to offer and if things start getting serious, you can circle back with A at that point.

  141. Hana*

    Is it bad form to ask for a raise if you have received one within the past year? My company does its annual COL raises in June, and I received 2-3% per usual. However, I still feel I’m underpaid for my role.
    Is it OK for me to raise the question now, or is it better to wait until next year?

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      If you got a COL raise, I’d wait until your annual eval, and use that as the opportunity to request a raise to bring your pay up to market rate. Just be really clear in the convo that this is specific to your pay rate as compared to the market rate for your role, not as related to cost of living, and don’t let them conflate the two.

  142. WoodswomanWrites*

    A couple months ago, I started my dream job and it’s wonderful as I had hoped. I cleared out my office at my old job t, removing framed artwork, knickknacks, etc. that made it a comfortable place to be. These items filled up a couple boxes and there are a few framed pieces as well.

    Now, in response to employees’ needs, our organization is shifting to accommodate telecommuting long-term. With the option to work at home as the primary workspace, we are creating a shared office workspace where people can sign up to work occasionally as needed. No complaints about that, they’re being responsive and inclusive with the process.

    Since I won’t have a dedicated workspace anymore, it feels weird to not have a personal space to put my stuff. My home space is small. Anyone else in that position with an accumulation of office things that you’re attached to, and nowhere to put them?

    1. CBB*

      I left a job several months ago with a box of such things that I don’t want to clutter up my new desk with. They’re mostly sentimental items given to me over the years by coworkers.

      If I continue the same pattern I’ve been repeating my entire life, that box will remain forgotten in my closet for a few years. Then one day, in a reckless spring-cleaning frenzy, I’ll throw it way, suffer a few days of regret, and then forgot it again.

      1. WoodswomanWrites*

        Like you, I have sentimental items from co-workers. I’m finding it a bumpy shift to not be attached to having an office space that I can make my own. What you’re describing might end up being what happens for me as well since I don’t have a dedicated office space at home, just my usual desk in my bedroom. The artwork is mostly original pieces, and the solution might be figuring out a way to rearrange things on my walls at home to make room for it all.

  143. Four Horned Brother*

    A while ago, I passed up applying for a potential dream job that I was highly qualified for because I like my current job enough that going through Potential Dream Job’s application process just didn’t seem worth it. There was a considerable chance PDJ would’ve been a pay cut for me, and the salary wasn’t listed (although the job was tagged as entry level, so probably low). I could never quite bring myself to go through an application process for a job that very well might be below my pay requirements.

    Now, of course, all I can think about is my total lack of passion for my current job and how very, very green that grass looked over on the other side. (To make it worse, since Potential Dream Job is public-facing, I can see what I assume to be the work that the person they hired is putting out, and I could do much, much better.) I’m angry at myself that I didn’t at least take the chance, even if I might have ended up turning it down over salary concerns. I feel like I should’ve at least taken the chance and tried to negotiate.

    What lessons should I take out of this? I feel like there are probably some cognitive distortions affecting the way I feel about it, but I’m not sure what they are. I still don’t know if I should be getting ready to leave this job or not—I like it OK and I’m good at it, but I’m starting to get burned out.

    1. PollyQ*

      Main takeaway I see is that if you’re in that much of a “grass is always greener” mindset and know you’re getting burned out, then it probably is time for you to think about moving on. Also, if it was an entry-level job and you’ve been working for a while, they might not have even considered you for it, not just because of salary, but because companies often balk at hiring people who seem overqualified for a job.

    2. WellRed*

      You should take away that it doesn’t hurt to me apply for the job rather than dismiss it out of hand because it MIGHT not meet your salary requirements ( or any other requirements that you can’t know for sure from the outside).

      1. Four Horned Brother*

        For sure! The main problem is that I would’ve needed to put together a portfolio, and since all of the work I’ve produced in the past ~3 years has been for-hire writing, I can’t really use any of it. (Marketing copywriter, not writing term papers!) Doing some new writing for the portfolio certainly wouldn’t have been an impossible hill to climb, but at the time it felt quite high.

        I’d also love advice from anyone who’s been in a similar situation of having a huge body of work that they’re not allowed to use to show people that they can do that work!

        1. WellRed*

          I think you should be able to use some of it, maybe ask others in your field? I’m in journalism. We certainly want published samples, not your free time doodles, but maybe advertising (?) differs? I hear you in the portfolio however. The thought of pulling together samples keeps my in my current job!

    3. Reba*

      I would remind yourself that you made the best decision you could based on the information that you had at the time. You didn’t take the chance because it didn’t look like a very good chance! Maybe another chance at that place will come again, and maybe it never will; that would be sad, but it still would not retroactively haven made that job suitable for you.

      To some extent this is “ghost ship that didn’t carry us” stuff (Dear Sugar) — thinking about and even grieving the paths we didn’t take is part of life.

      ITA with PollyQ that your thoughts about the job that got away are more revealing of your current work situation.

      1. Four Horned Brother*

        Wow, I’ve never read that Dear Sugar piece before, and that is really something. Good stuff all around, thank you.

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      What I would do is identify what parts of the process held you back, and work on them now. I see you said a portfolio was required. Start putting one together now. You can take your time since you’re not actively looking, but once you have it, you’ll be ready to submit immediately if a new opportunity comes up.

      I’ll also say, I agree that if it was labelled as “entry level” and you are earning above an entry level salary now, it was almost certainly too low a salary. And any job that can’t support you, no matter what else it entails, really isn’t a potential dream job. It might be something you’d enjoy more in the day to day, but how long is that enough if it’s not adequately covering your expenses? I believe you that it could have been awesome, but it’s easy to wear the goggles of what might have been when you don’t really have any details. Low salary is a big deal; try to put this out of your mind and prep for the next opportunity.

      I really found that having an updated resume and a cover letter I could easily customize for different roles, lining up my potential references, and prepping any other materials I thought I was likely to need in an application process made me feel much more confident and excited about applying to open positions. It also made applications VERY easy. They stopped feeling like huge ordeals for each new application, and became a streamlined hand off of an already prepared packet. Once you have everything, you can decide if you want to actively job hunt, passively look around, or somewhere in between.

  144. Mickey*

    I have been at my current place of employment for approximately 6 years. I started there as a volunteer and last year was paid for 15 hrs of work from Sept to Dec and then 25 hrs/wk from Jan to Apr, although I have worked 60-80hrs/week continuously since March 2020. During that entire period (March 2020 until now), I have had one week off which I literally had to beg for this past August.

    This year, my contract is for 30hrs/week and I had hoped to set firmer boundaries around not working when I’m not being paid because of the stink my boss raised when I told her I needed that one week off last August. Despite the exploitive environment, I have gotten along well with all my previous supervisors and I previously loved my job (which is why I put in the long hours), but my new manager is a monster whose toxicity is literally making me physically ill. I have applied to a few positions (in an entirely different industry) and am hopeful that I will be called back for a 2nd interview for a company that I would love to work for in approx. 2 weeks, so I am working towards an exit strategy.

    My big concern right now is that my new boss hoards information and she has scolded team members for talking to me about work. She has also scolded me for talking to my team members. For additional context, last year my role was unofficially assistant managerial in nature. I helped supervise the rest of our team and was the go-to person for most things. This year however, this new boss has taken all my duties and responsibilities away and is doing them herself, so we now have 2 people doing my old job and no one doing the work of ‘manager.’ I do approx 3.5 hrs of work during a typical 6 hr day now.

    Not only do I hate sitting around doing nothing, but I am afraid that this (me not doing any actual work) is going to come back to bite me and I’m wondering if any of you have any advice as to what I should do? I document everything and I am working towards getting out of that hellhole ASAP, but I don’t have a job offer currently on the table, so I feel like I am over a barrel here and I wondering what I can do to protect myself.

  145. Lizard Salamander*

    Hi! So, I’m an intern at Mega Corp, working in a role which is more of a typical graduate + many many years of experience role. I started off doing the admin tasks, and now I’m doing proper project work with more experienced coworkers (who often have kids older than I am). Obviously, they’re much better at it than me, as they’ve been doing this sort of thing since before I was born!

    Anyway, the whole “always being the least competent person there” and having to ask everyone for help is quite irritating at times, and I feel absolutely useless. It doesn’t help that my training was absolutely non-existent for this (I was trained about the company, and some basics, but obviously nothing for this).

    Anyway, I now feel absolutely sh*te about all the work that I do, and like I’m a total waste of space, as I can see that I have no idea about lots of things which I’m somehow “expected to know”? I seem to have lost all my confidence, even for things that I know how to do… Any advice for this?

    Anyway, I met an incredibly cool person in another sector of the company, and he’s working on this awesome project, which is the sort of thing that I’d genuinely love to be involved in. He asked me if I wanted to be involved, and I said yes, of course, and then he asked me what skills I had so he could find me something to do (!!). However, I feel so bad about myself that I can’t think of any skills, or at least, not without prefacing them with “I know I did cool thing, but it’s actually pathetic and here’s why:”. He IM-ed me the question a few hours ago (after 17:00), so I still have a few hours to answer, as he’s online at weird hours.

    Does anyone have any advice for recovering confidence? Whenever anybody says anything, I automatically assume either a negative interpretation, or (if that’s not possible), that they’re mocking me. I’d just like help to be able to not feel so anxious all the time at work?

    It’s just – I’m an (unfortunately still) underage intern (my colleagues offer to buy me drinks, and I just laugh it off).

    I can’t feel like I’m good at teapot designing if I’m being compared to the Inventor of all Teapots (legitimately the equivalent of someone on my team), and expected to do the same job, and I feel that it isn’t fair that this is expected of me all the time? I don’t want to mention it though, as it might look bad? I just want help.

    1. Lady_Lessa*

      One thing that you can contribute is your inexperience. You don’t know “We’ve tried that and it didn’t work” and “We’ve always done it that way”.

      You can also bring your enthusiasm.

    2. Attractive Nuisance*

      Are they really expecting you to be as good as the Inventor of All Teapots? Usually the point of an internship is to learn, and I would bet that everyone in the department knows that is why you are there. Interns aren’t supposed to be doing admin tasks (unless they are preparing for a career in admin) – they should be working alongside professionals in their field, gaining experience in project work.

      So, I would lean into your role as a learner. Don’t be embarrassed about being the least competent person there. It’s not a bad thing, it’s just a fact and it’s a fact everyone knows, so you don’t have to hide it. Ask as many questions as you want, but understand that not everyone will have time to answer. Don’t worry about being useless – interns are not generally expected to be that useful (and if you’re not being paid, it is illegal for you to be useful).

      Overall it sounds like you have a great opportunity with at least one supportive coworker. Have fun with the cool project!

    3. Littorally*

      You’re an intern, so the question of what skills you would bring to the project is a weird one. You’re there primarily to learn how the work world operates and to be a useful set of hands for low-skill and low-experience tasks, not to be a productive working person. (This is slightly less true if you’re a paid intern, but even so.)

      So — don’t feel bad about needing to ask things, because right now that is literally your job. If they’re putting you in a “graduate + many years of experience role” then they are pulling some pure BS on you, because that’s not what internships are for and you should be getting a real salary + benefits for that kind of work.

  146. ArtsAdminnie*

    My industry (arts admin) is finally hiring/rehiring for vacant positions. In a recent meeting where the hiring manager wanted input comparing two women who had interviewed, he started talking favorably about how Lady Applicant #1 had a “warmer personality” than Lady Applicant #2. Was I overreacting to think this was veering toward gender-based assessment? If there were two dudes applying, somehow I don’t think we’d be talking about which one had a “warmer personality”? What do y’all think? I don’t want to be the person over-policing minute word choice things.

    1. Lady_Lessa*

      I think that you may be overthinking things. Some of us women are warmer and more outgoing and some of us are the type to hang back and not be as open emotionally.

      If the position deals with working with lots of people, the warmer person might be a better fit.

      I’ve noticed the same differences in men, some make better salesmen because they connect with people better and others do not.

    2. Sometimes supervisor*

      To be honest, I think it’s kind of hard to tell without knowing what the hiring manager talks like more generally. I’m quite colloquial in my speech so I probably would describe somebody – man or woman – as having a warm personality if I was speaking but use ‘approachable’ if I was writing it down. I think it might be worth watching out for any other language they use which seems to have a gender bias but I don’t think one example is worth anything more than a ‘mental note’.

      1. ArtsAdminnie*

        Thanks. Yeah, I may have been ready to pounce since I’ve suspected him of some other subtle age discrimination-adjacent comments in past searches, and this role is pretty independent/not public-facing, so as long as the person isn’t difficult to communicate with as a colleague it’s not really necessary to scrutinize emotional openness in the hiring process. I’ll still take it back just a notch I think :-D

    3. RagingADHD*

      I talk about men being warm and friendly. I don’t know if I use the term exactly as frequently for all genders, but I think it’s a reach to put this in a category of gendered language.

      If personality isn’t/shouldn’t be a factor at all for the role at all, that’s a different matter. But then again, there are very few roles where displaying a prickly or cold personality in the interview would be considered an asset. It might not matter either way, but it wouldn’t usually be a positive.

  147. YouwantmetodoWHAT?! *

    I’ve been looking for a part-time job.
    A few times I’ve had job ads come up that have in the body of the description something like Mon-Fri,  8:30-4:30.
    To me, that’s full time. Should I apply anyway, or send an email asking about this before I apply?
    Tia!

    1. BlueBelle*

      I would go ahead and apply. They may mean you might be asked to work part time during those hours of operation. If a recruiter or HR calls to set up an interview you can verify then. Good luck!

      1. Mental Lentil*

        Seconding this. Often the person who writes the ad is not the person who is managing the position, and ads are often written so poorly, it’s nearly impossible to tell until you talk to them and find out.

    2. WellRed*

      No, that’s full time unless it says something about part time hours within the 8:30 to 4:30 frame. I’d shoot an email first.

    3. Pocket Mouse*

      If there is an indication elsewhere in the posting that it’s a part-time role, go ahead and apply. If it doesn’t specify whether it’s PT or FT, you can decide whether you want to spend the time preparing an application before confirming. Either way, be very clear in your cover letter than you’re seeking a PT role.

  148. Singledogparent*

    Any hints on asking permission to bring my dog to work? There’s one other person who does sometimes, but no official policy and the boss likes to play favorites. My dog is well behaved and clean and would just be tied to my desk quietly. I really feel like my personal and work life would improve if I could bring him twice a week because I live alone and can’t afford a dog walker so he’s spending 9 hrs a day alone, which is on the edge of what he can tolerate. So it’s been difficult to fit in exercise during the week to help my mental health and I could really use the boost to help manage stress at work. Not sure how much reasoning would be appropriate to include in an ask, though. Thanks.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I’d keep it short and to the point. Something along the lines of “Hey Boss, I noticed Coworker brings their dog in sometimes. What’s the policy on that? Would I be able to bring my dog into work twice a week?”

    3. ATX*

      I worked for a company that leased large commercial office buildings, and one company built it into their lease. I think it would probably depend on the building owners as well as what the policy is. Is there only 1 dog allowed? Are multiple?

      I would approach your boss and mention you’ve seen your coworker bringing their dog to work, then mention what the building policy is and say you’d love to bring yours. I would stay away from mentioning anything related to mental health, just keep it short and sweet. Maybe offer to do a trial one day to see how it works and mention it would only be a couple of times a week.

      I would also press if they say no, then ask why coworker can bring in there’s.

  149. Pie*

    Are there laws around board of directors for nonprofits?

    As an employee, I always hear staff/top management talk about how the board (about 4 people) says we can’t do this or that or that the event we want to host was rejected by the board. Board meetings are not yet “open” for employees to sit in on but I hear from staff who’ve been here longer that many times board members aren’t ever really present.

    Our director who is the sole point of contact with the board talks about how the board promises X Y Z, but usually that never happens.

    I’m new to the world of non-profits and I’m so confused on how a board of director who I rarely ever see makes so many decisions on behalf of the organization but at the same time is also so very absent from events or other things we do.

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      The board of directors is the group of people who govern the nonprofit. They oversee the organization, direct its operations, decide on its mission and vision, decide on its strategic moves and future plans, and manage its budget. They are the boss of the organization’s executive director (or whatever title is held by your staff leadership).

      Board meetings are not usually open to staff, because the board needs to discuss things in a candid manner. The executive director, though, often sits ex officio on the board so that they can provide information as needed at meetings.

      There are good boards and not-so-good boards. They shouldn’t be involving themselves in day-to-day operations of your organization, but better boards have active participation in fundraising, including fundraising events.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Look up nonprofit governance. The board’s basic role is high-level strategy and making sure the finances, reputation and mission are kept on track.

      Board meetings are usually done entirely separately from the day to day work, and most volunteers or line staff may never meet them.

      It is somewhat unusual if they never make an appearance at any donor events – you’d expect to see them at an annual gala or major fundraiser. If you are new and holding frequent community events, I wouldn’t expect to see them at something like that.

  150. BottleBlonde*

    Hi! I should start by saying, I have social anxiety, which I’m trying (not so successfully) to get under control myself as I wait for my new job’s insurance benefits to kick in.

    I feel terrible because, when talking to a colleague today, I forgot someone at work’s name, and I totally did not address in the moment. I was talking to my colleague about a project which involved two individuals, and I named the first woman, but could not remember the second woman’s name so just trailed off and changed the subject. I work with the colleague I was speaking to fairly regularly, and have only met the woman whose name I forgot once, not that it really matters. I know that I handled it wrong in the moment because I got so anxious about forgetting the second woman’s name.

    Anyway, my question now is, should I just leave it or should I say something to my colleague? I feel as though she must think I am terribly rude for forgetting a coworker’s name and not even acknowledging it. But I also don’t know if it would be overkill to bring it up next time I talk to her (which will probably be in a week, unless I reach out just to say something about this)? How would you handle it?

    1. Decidedly Me*

      Don’t bring it up. She probably didn’t even notice or, if she did, isn’t thinking something terrible about you. People forget names – it happens :) Be kind to yourself!

    2. Attractive Nuisance*

      It would be overkill to bring it up. It’s also a very normal mistake to make, and if you make a big deal out of it, it will suggest that you are judgmental of others who make similarly normal mistakes. Being kind to yourself and being kind to others go hand-in-hand.

      1. Attractive Nuisance*

        (And on the topic of being kind to both yourself and others… don’t assume your coworker thinks you are terribly rude! It’s unkind to assume she is thinking bad thoughts about you.)

    3. Anonymous Luddite*

      I have been there and I empathize. In the past, I have laughed nervously and claimed it was a brain fart. Everyone involved nodded and agreed that they have had similar experiences.

    4. I'm A Little Teapot*

      You’re overthinking. Don’t bring it up, don’t stress, and do realize that your social anxiety is a factor.

    5. The Ginger Ginger*

      Especially if this is a new job with new people, it is perfectly normal not to remember folks’ names. 100% it’s actually to be expected. 100% it’s such a small blip it’s not worth mentioning again.

      If it helps you in future, I have found that naming it in the moment has helped with my (admittedly very minor) social anxiety. I would just straight up acknowledge in the convo next time that there’s someone else on the project whose name is currently escaping me. That way I don’t have to wonder the next day about what the other person THOUGHT was happening, I’ve removed the possibility that they’re drawing the wrong conclusion by providing the right information. Again, that works for me. It may cause more anxiety for you, so take it or leave it. It’s also something that takes practice, so if you try it and don’t succeed, please don’t use it as another thing to be anxious over.

    6. WoodswomanWrites*

      I agree with others that it’s likely your colleague didn’t notice. And definitely be kind to yourself–I have forgotten the name of someone I worked with for a whole year. This happens to everyone at some point.

    7. Alex*

      If I had to follow up every time I forgot someone’s name, I wouldn’t have time to do my own work!

      Lots of people are bad with names. No one really cares.

    8. RagingADHD*

      Leave it.

      You weren’t rude, and she would only think so if she were a wierdly judgmental person with bizarre priorities. And even if she were like that, she’d still be wrong because you weren’t rude.

  151. Brooke Bee*

    I recently quit my job, and am looking for a new one currently.

    What do you think of this as a response if the interviewer asks why I quit?

    “I loved my job and the work I did, but unfortunately, there was a high turnover for people who worked for the person I reported to.”

    1. RagingADHD*

      People’s mileage may vary, but to me this sounds like a really transparent attempt to not say what you are actually saying. It’s obvious you mean that your boss was impossible to work for, but not giving any useful insight into the kind of employee you are or the type of place you want to be.

      You’re better off identifying the specific things that made your boss hard to work for, and say you are looking for the opposite. So, if they were a micromanager you might say you were looking for more autonomy. If they were dictatorial you might say you’re looking for a more collaborative environment or the opportunity to take on more responsibility.

      If they piled on work and blamed you for not being superhuman, you might say you’re looking for a more supportive team with a structured workflow, and so forth.

      1. Brooke Bee*

        Thanks. I was afraid any details would come off poorly, but how you phrased it makes sense. What I want matters when I’m interviewing too.

  152. KittyCat*

    Hello!

    I received a job offer today (yay!) and would love to get some thoughts regarding things I’m considering. I’m looking to leave my current job because of low pay, poor growth opportunities, the work is not what I’d like to be focusing on, and generally feeling really stifled because of my boss (who is actually leaving but I feel it’s too late for me to change my mind about staying).

    The job offer I received today is great pay, good benefits, and in an industry I’m interested in transitioning into. However, I’m not sure I would be excited about the job itself in the long-term, they told me right now there isn’t a lot of clear vertical growth opportunity, the work is a bit of a niche, and I didn’t get the best compatibility vibes with the people I interviewed with. For instance, during the interview, the manager for the position said she has a type A personality and that they (which is her team of herself and this position) “get shit done.” I’m of course all for getting work done and putting out great products/results, but I guess the comment just turned me off and I didn’t feel like “oh this is a nice/potentially great person to work with” during the interview. I’m not sure how much I should weigh this in my decision making because I also know it can be hard to actually know the reality until you’re working somewhere.

    So my question is : How much do you think weird vibes from the interview should influence my decision? Thank you!

    1. WoodswomanWrites*

      For me, if an interview feels off, I trust that feeling. If you are only a two-person team and don’t feel compatible with the manager, that would cause me to decline the job unless it was my only option. Do you have the ability financially to wait until a better fit comes around? Because if your manager told you she’s a type A personality and you don’t want to work in that context, this sounds like a mismatch that would lead you to being unhappy in your role.

  153. WoodswomanWrites*

    For me, if an interview feels off, I trust that feeling. If you are only a two-person team and don’t feel compatible with the manager, that would cause me to decline the job unless it was my only option. Do you have the ability financially to wait until a better fit comes around? Because if your manager told you she’s a type A personality and you don’t want to work in that context, this sounds like a mismatch that would lead you to being unhappy in your role.

  155. Tra La La La Llama*

    Late to the thread, but how do you confidently articulate your skills to someone who you’re totally in awe of and who is much more senior than you without coming off as terrified or arrogant?

    This is in the context of “of course you can be involved in this project, Junior Llama Groomer! What are your skills again? I didn’t note them down.” It’s coming from Extremely Senior And Cool Llama Groomer.

    I got this on Saturday morning and I’ve been stressing about my response all day.

    1. Hlao-roo*

      How would you respond to someone who is not Extremely Cool? If I were you, I would try to separate my feelings of awe for this person from the question. They want to know your skills so they can assign you the correct tasks for this project (I’m assuming), so I’d go with a bulleted list of some sort.

      Example:
      – Experience grooming brown llamas
      – Good at soothing llamas before grooming
      – Coordinated llama grooming schedule at Llama Groomers, Inc.

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