open thread – December 10-11, 2021

by Alison Green on December 10, 2021

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

You may also like:
{ 1,074 comments }

{ 1,074 comments… read them below }

  1. ApologizesTooMuch*

    Any advice on how to stop apologizing for things that aren’t your fault or don’t require an apology? I (she/her) have a bad habit of saying “sorry” way too often. For example, “I’m sorry I don’t have exact change,” when I hand a cashier a twenty, or “I’m sorry that took so long,” when I take a break at work that is legally allowed and not a burden on the person who covers the public service desk for me. I do this in both my personal and professional lives, and would like to curb the habit both for myself and so that my eight-month-old daughter doesn’t pick it up from me. Has anyone here tried to make a similar change to their vocabulary?

    1. Deep Sigh*

      SO HARD to stop, but I did so the same way I stopped (or lessened) the use of “um” and “like:” Slowing down and thinking through want I want to say alllllll the time, every time. Good luck.

    2. College Career Counselor*

      Don’t try to eliminate it all at once. Concentrate on reducing the instances by being conscious of what you say (as Deep Sigh says). And don’t beat yourself up if you “slip up.”

    3. WonderMint*

      Try replacing “sorry” with “thank you”

      “Thank you for accepting my larger bill”
      “Thank you for waiting while I was on my break”

        1. Quiet Liberal*

          I started doing this a year or so ago. It occurred to me that I had nothing to be sorry for so why was I blaming myself for something out of my control? I think “Thanks for your patience” is perfect!

      4. KoiFeeder*

        There’s a really great picture my therapist sent me of alternatives to apologizing in certain situations, I have it saved on my phone because I’m a habit-apologizer and it’s good to replace them.

    4. OtterB*

      One piece of advice I have read is switching from “sorry” to “thanks.” It doesn’t work for the change example, but you could tell the person who has been covering the public service desk “Thanks for covering for me.” I mean, even if it’s part of their job, it’s still reasonable to say a quick thank you.

      1. Age of denial*

        Another substitution might be “unfortunately”. Unfortunately I do not have exact change. Unfortunately, I am not able to cover for you next week.

      2. Grits McGee*

        I’ve also substituted “I’m afraid” for “I’m sorry” verbally. (It looks weird to me typing it out instead of saying it, but ymmv.)

        1. GoryDetails*

          I’ve used the “I’m afraid…” variant in the past – possibly inspired by the passage in one of Sayers’ “Lord Peter” novels in which Lord Peter, having asked his cab driver to return to the point of origin because he forgot something, gives that kind of not-my-fault-but apology about the traffic: “I’m afraid it’s an awkward place to turn in.”

          If I were the recipient of such a remark I think I’d appreciate the thought, whether it was couched as a direct “sorry for the inconvenience” or something a bit more vague; just an acknowledgement that things aren’t proceeding as smoothly as either of us could wish…

    5. Pool Lounger*

      You could ask a friend ir partner to call you on it whenever you say it. In my experience it’s the one thing that really worked, otherwise I wouldn’t notice myself doing it.

    6. StudentPilot*

      For your second example, you could try turning the sentence around – “thank you/thanks for covering for me!” (if it took longer than expected you could add “thanks for covering for me – that took longer than I expected!”)

    7. Former Gifted Kid*

      Try to replace “I’m sorry” with “Thank you for your patience” or “Thank you for your understanding”

      I have made a similar change with how I respond to compliments. I had a tendency to downplay compliments or my contributions instead of owning it. It will be hard and feel silly at first, but just keep trying it. Practice a lot on people you feel comfortable with. Even if you feel a bit rude not saying sorry to your partner or friends, you know they will love you either way. It can help re-wire that anxiety pathway.

      It also helps if you start paying close attention to how other people handle the situation. When other people take their breaks, what do they say? How do others react to what they say?

      1. Hlao-roo*

        Yes on responding to compliments! This one was difficult for me. I repurposed “no is a complete sentence” into “thank you is a complete sentence” for responding to compliments.

        “Great job with the TPS reports, Hlao-roo.”
        “Thank you!”

    8. Corporate Minion*

      ooh I have a friend who does/did the same thing. She works on reframing the sentence and thought completely: Sorry that took so long -> Thank you for waiting
      This switch applies to a lot of situations.
      For the ‘no change’ sort of thing, you could try ‘unfortunately, I don’t have exact change’.
      Or maybe not say anything. It is completely normal not to have exact change.

    9. Malarkey01*

      This might be weird, but I noticed I did it a lot to fill silence and make uncomfortable chit chat (like your example with the cashier). During CoVid I got way more comfortable with not needing to be overly friendly and chatty- still polite and not a jerk- but when I made the shift and started running through what I was thinking of saying in my head I found that I didn’t need to fill that silence and a simple hello and then a thank you have a good day was enough, and then I stopped with the apologizing for goofy things and some of the other awkward chit chat.
      It reminded me of when I lived in Europe that every 30 second interaction with someone did not need to be akin to a long lost relationship.

    10. Dust Bunny*

      Stop and think for a second: Would you expect someone else to say “sorry” to you in the same situation? No?

    11. Hlao-roo*

      A few strategies that I use:

      1) Do you need to say anything? Silence doesn’t have to be uncomfortable. In your first example, I would hand the cashier a twenty the same way I would hand them my credit card: without saying anything.

      2) For your second example, if you do want to say something you could go with “I’m back!” and a smile. There’s reason to apologize, so use a neutral/positive acknowledgement of the person who covered for you.

      3) Professionally, when someone points out an error I made, I use some version of “thanks for pointing that out, I’ll fix it right away” or “oh, I see what went wrong here. What’s the best way to correct it?”

    12. Momma Bear*

      Think about the times when “sorry” is filler and when it matters. You could say, “I don’t have change” vs “I’m sorry I don’t have change.” I think tone also matters. Are you feeling shame or are you just stating fact? Sometimes “sorry about that” is perfectly appropriate in a “I’m owning this, but let’s move on” kind of way. If that makes sense.

    13. Zephy*

      +1 suggestion to replace “sorry” with “thank you” when you haven’t actually hurt anyone and thus have nothing to apologize for.

      Instead of… try saying…
      “Sorry for taking so long” => “Thanks for your patience” or “Thanks for waiting”
      “Sorry to bother you” => “Thanks for your time” or “Thanks for your help”
      “Sorry for the inconvenience” => “Thank you for understanding”

      In professional contexts especially, like if you’re dealing with a customer who seems slightly inconvenienced, “we appreciate your patience/understanding” is a good sub for “sorry,” too. Invoke the Company, makes it feel less personal (=less fraught IME) and frames it positively in one fell swoop.

      1. High Score!*

        If you inconvenienced someone by taking too long then you should apologize. Apologizing for something that is your fault is not a sign of weakness. Also, I hate it when people keep me waiting and then thank me for waiting when I had no choice. At least own up to the fact you inconvenienced me.
        Also, saying I’m sorry to express empathy for someone’s loss or misfortune is fine and a good idea.
        Just work on eliminating sorry when it’s not required.

        1. Tuesday*

          Agree. Sometimes I think avoiding unnecessary use of the word leads people to stop apologizing when they really should. Thanking someone for waiting doesn’t substitute for apologizing because you’ve made them wait.

          This doesn’t apply to the OP’s situation where the break is a regular work break that the coworker expects to cover. I agree there’s no need to apologize there, and a thanks would work well.

        2. Enna*

          OTOH, I know chronic apologizers who say “I’m sorry I took so long” when they took a normal amount of time. I sent an email on tuesday that did NOT require a response and got back “I’m sorry it took me so long to respond, thank you for the information”.

          I think this coworker spends a lot of time and energy apologizing and would probably benefit from eliminating it entirely for a bit, even if it is kind of rude, just as a reset. Sometimes you have to overshoot.

      2. Willy Wonka*

        “Thanks for your patience” can be loaded. Recent phone interaction with customer service rep (CSR)
        Me: This didn’t work & hasn’t been fixed after 4 tries
        CSR: Thank you for your patience
        Me: No. I haven’t been patient. I’m needing you to fix this
        CSR: Yes. We’ll be working on that. Thanks for your patience
        Me: I’m NOT being patient anymore. You can stop thanking me for patience that I’m no longer willing to give
        CSR: Yes. I understand. Thanks for your patience.
        It’s become an annoying script like nodding to get you to agree that you ARE being patient. A sorry would have been better in this case even if it still didn’t solve the problem.

    14. londonedit*

      This is such a common language pattern in the UK, for just about everyone really. It doesn’t really mean ‘sorry’, it means any one of ‘excuse me’ or ‘can I just…’ or ‘oops’ or ‘would you mind…’. There was a Very British Problems meme the other day saying that in Britain, ‘Sorry…could I just…thanks’ is a complete sentence (and with the accompanying gestures/context, everyone would understand what you were getting at! So you could always try moving here.

      Flippancy aside, I completely understand where you’re coming from and I agree that trying to frame it as ‘thank you’ would be a good way to go. I would find that really difficult, but saying ‘Thanks so much for waiting’ or ‘Thanks for taking a twenty – I don’t have anything smaller!’, with the right tone, would work in so many situations.

      1. sassafras*

        I’m pro-sorry and I use all of those constructions despite being a native AmE speaker. Maybe I should move! :P

    15. NotMy(Fancy)RealName*

      My daughter’s roommate has been coached by her therapist to say “pineapple” every time she says “sorry” in this way.

    16. Generic Name*

      Moments ago, I was about to email a coworker, “I don’t have that information, sorry.” but I caught myself and said instead, “I don’t have that information, unfortunately.” It’s easier for me to catch myself in email when I do this and rephrase. There are lists online of things you can say instead of sorry. Like instead of “sorry I’m late” you can say “thank you for your patience”. I found an image entitled “email like a boss” that has a whole bunch of these replacements that I’ve found helpful.

      1. High Score!*

        “Unfortunately I don’t have that information” is when no sorry is required.
        “Thank you for your patience” when you were late and made someone wait is rude. That’s when you should say I’m sorry.
        The phrase “I’m sorry” is not a bad word, it’s not a sign of weakness, it’s but a character flaw. It’s an expression of regret when you’ve erred or of empathy for another’s misfortune.

        1. Loulou*

          This! I feel like the “ladies, stop saying sorry!” advice is obviously well intentioned but a lot of people don’t necessarily have the social instincts to apply it well.

          It’s really OK to say sorry. I say it frequently in customer service interactions and don’t intend to stop. I’ve regretted NOT saying sorry way more often than I’ve regretted saying it!

          1. Loulou*

            Customer service interactions where I’m providing the service, I mean, but come to think of it also when I’m the customer. Sorry ;) for the ambiguous wording…

        2. allathian*

          “I’m sorry I’m late” works if the person genuinely regrets being late and intends to do better the next time. If you’re habitually late and don’t intend to change your ways (or can’t change them; ADHD time blindness, etc.) then a “Thanks for your patience…” works a lot better.

      2. High Score!*

        I’ve read advice like that email like a boss and often that crap comes off as arrogance and it’s annoying

    17. Loulou*

      I…think it’s absolutely fine to say “sorry I don’t have exact change.” I say it all the time and see no reason to stop, and would put it in a different category from “sorry that took so long” (when it didn’t take long and you could/should just say “thank you” instead).

      My advice might be to clarify your mental distinction between different kinds of unnecessary “sorrys” — you mentioned “not your fault” vs “don’t require an apology.” I think it’s fine to apologize for things that aren’t your fault! Many people do it all the time. So if you’re going to train yourself out of one, maybe make it the sorrys where something else, like “thanks”, would actually be more gracious.

    18. Asenath*

      It depends on the situation. For the change, I think it’s perfectly appropriate to say “sorry” (maybe the fact that I’m Canadian affects that). If I was returning on time after a work break, I don’t think I’d say a thing other than “Hi, I’m back” or maybe “Anything come up that I need to know?”. I think the difference is that in the first case, there is a minor inconvenience for the cashier (even if it is part of the job) and although it’s not my fault that I have a twenty, it’s nice to acknowledge the inconvenience for the other person. In the second case, there’s nothing happening other than ordinary routine. I have learned not to dismiss compliments, which I suppose is a similar situation, and I did it by noticing what I was doing, and practicing saying “thank you” and then shutting my mouth instead of saying “This? It’s nothing. etc etc “.

    19. HolidayAmoeba*

      When I caught myself about to apologize, I asked myself if this was something I really needed to be apologizing for.

    20. Papillon Celeste*

      Say a variation of ‘thank you’ instead as often as possible, feels better for both parties and fulfills the urge to alleviate any possible discomforts.

      ‘Sorry I’m late’ becomes ‘thank you for ‘waiting for me!’

      ‘I’m sorry that took so long,’ becomes ‘thank you for covering’.

      ‘sorry I don’t have exact change’ becomes ‘I’m glad you can give change. It’s so difficult to break those notes sometimes.’

      It changes the perspective too. Those situations are stuff that just happens but still cause disruption or some kind of effort. Showing appreciation will make not just you feel better but the others too. It will also shift your inner guilt to gratitude, making you more positive and it will soon become more easy to not feel guilty about every tiny thing. It also makes it easier to explain those things in case an explanation is necessary without sounding overly defensive.
      ‘thank you for waiting! My bus ran late.’ sounds much less like an evasive excuse as ‘so sorry I’m late, the bus didn’t come punktual.’
      Also you will no longer take responsibility for things out of your control while still acknowledging the impact it might have on others by being grateful they put up with it together with you instead of behaving as if it was somehow your fault.

    21. Little Miss Sunshine*

      I once read that you should save your apologies for serios things, like running over someone’s foot! If you set that as your new standard, you will find yourself apologizing much less for inconsequential things and saving “sorry” for situations where it is warranted and will come across sincerely.

      I do sometimes apologize to cashiers for using large bills on small purchases, but that is a recent thing due to COVID cash shortages. I hope to drop it again soon. Good luck!

      1. Loulou*

        Wow, not a fan of this standard! I’ve never done anything nearly as bad as running over someone’s foot and hope to keep it that way, nor has anyone done it to me. What is so bad about apologizing for minor things? If I’m 10 minutes late to meet a friend it’s not the end of the world, but I still apologize. If a friend kept me waiting without an apology I’d be annoyed!

        1. Tuesday*

          I’m with you. If you actually inconvenienced someone by being late, I think the nice thing to do is apologize. If you go out of your way to avoid apologizing, I think people are likely to see through that, and it can be annoying (like the “thanks for waiting for me” dodge when you’re late). There’s this idea that confident people don’t apologize, but confident people who are considerate and not threatened by the word “sorry” do!

          1. fueled by coffee*

            100% Agreed with Loulou’s and Tuesday’s comments here.

            “Sorry” is not a bad word! It’s good to acknowledge when you are inconveniencing people, even if it’s ‘not your fault’ or ‘not as serious as injuring someone’!

            I feel like people took “Hey, sometimes women are unnecessarily deferential in workplace interactions when men tend not to behave like this” to an extreme. I don’t see a difference between “Sorry for sending this so late” and “Thanks for your patience on this”… except that I can’t “Thanks for your patience” at my boss when I’ve missed a deadline! That’s horribly inconsiderate of me and shows a total lack of understanding of office norms. These blanket rules completely overlook the power dynamics that lead people to say ‘sorry’ for minor inconveniences or things that weren’t their fault in the first place.

            1. Spencer Hastings*

              I totally agree. Also, if women are more deferential than men in a particular situation, then in some cases maybe it’s the men who should be *more* deferential, not the women less.

              I recently attended an online training seminar (the kind where an outside presenter comes in and presents to a group from a single company) with some people from my department. The first two questions that were asked at the end were asked by the same person and went something like this: “Sorry if you already covered this and I overlooked it, but (insert question here)?” and “I don’t want to take up all the discussion time, but (follow-up question)?”

              Too deferential! Nice girls don’t get the corner office!

              …but this person was (1) male and (2) probably the…third-highest-ranking person in the company, if I had to calculate? This guy’s already got the corner office.

              This is just a long-winded way of saying that sometimes when women do a thing, it’s described as thing that’s holding us back and we should stop doing it, and when men do the same thing, it’s just normal basic politeness.

              1. fueled by coffee*

                Oh, absolutely. Because if the focus is on how we’re saying “sorry” too much and using vocal fry too much and not being aggressive enough, then it’s our own fault that we aren’t being recognized and promoted and paid the same as our male colleagues, and we just need to work on saying “Thank you for your patience” instead of the institutions we work for doing anything to address structural inequities.

              2. Tuesday*

                Yes! When men and women behave differently at work, we’re always told we should start behaving like the men. Like, “Men apply to jobs when they don’t meet half the qualifications and then fake it till they make it, so you should do that too!” But no thank you. I don’t want to take a job I don’t feel fully qualified for, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Just pay me fairly for my experience please.

                1. Loulou*

                  Great example. That advice doesn’t apply to my field (you literally will not get a job you don’t meet the required qualifications for) and I’ve definitely had well meaning friends from other fields pull out the “well, MEN who don’t meet 100% of qualifications…” thing. Ok, people of all genders apply for jobs they are unqualified for and don’t get them. I’m trying to get a job so I will continue my practice of applying for jobs where I meet the minimum qualifications, regardless of what a man would do!

              3. Tali*

                Absolutely, I would like to see men apologizing for causing inconvenience and encouraged to think about others’ feelings–as happens in other cultures around the world!

                There is serial overapologizing, like “It’s hot today, sorry”. That makes no sense. Or when it is not just one apology but real groveling that indicates self-esteem issues.

                But the cultural issue of “women apologize and men don’t, so women should be more like men”… why should we all follow “male norms” as if they’re inherently better? Perhaps men should learn to follow “female norms”, instead of assuming that the patriarchy imbued them with superior communication skills and confidence? (No, it just means people in power don’t need to apologize)

    22. Noisy Ghost*

      For me personally, I find it depends a bit on the power dynamic. As a customer there is a potential power imbalance and customers can really ruin a cashier’s day. Because I have worked in customer service and am a human with empathy I would say “sorry I don’t have exact change” as a way of saying “I am not going to be a jerk to you,” if that makes sense.

      On the flip side, I would avoid over-apologizing to someone with authority over me or to someone on equal footing with me for obvious reasons and also because I think it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If I apologize to my coworker every day for taking so long on my break even though I took the allotted time, my coworker might start to think I regularly take too long on my breaks. So when I over-apologize, I’m actually doing myself a disservice by possibly painting myself in a bad light to my coworker.

      These aren’t tips for reducing your sorrys but I found that reframing it in this way helped me! I especially used to find myself way over-apologizing to bosses for really minor things, most of which they would never have registered had I not brought it to their attention by apologizing (like being 2 minutes late).

    23. A Teacher*

      Timely. I am an athletic trainer that works PRN for a company. I recently covered a big wrestling tournament for my very part time job. I was shoved off to the side in the gym where there was an entry way and where my supplies and training table were. I started out asking people to move and saying “sorry about that.” Then I thought, “why am I apologizing for being able to do my job? There are stands for a reason.” it was like something clicked. I don’t have to feel bad because I need to legit be able to do my job. If I can’t see the mats and an injury happens, that’s when I’ll really be sorry. I’ve been an athletic trainer for 17 years and just realized I don’t have to apologize.

    24. Gnome*

      I couldn’t make the jump to ‘thanks’ because it wasn’t what I needed to express. Instead, I found it helped to say what I was feeling. “I wish I had a smaller bill to give you.” Or Maybe, “I hope it didn’t too busy while I was out.” If nothing else, it’s got more variety.

    25. Koala dreams*

      If you don’t mind explaining, I’m curious why you’d want to stop using the phrase “I’m sorry” especially. That phrase has many meanings which makes it very useful, but I see a lot of dislike of it online.

      1. ApologizesTooMuch*

        Thanks, everyone, for the suggestions! I especially like the idea of reframing a thought to use “thank you” instead of “sorry.”
        Koala, I don’t want to stop using “I’m sorry” entirely, but I do want to stop over-using it, especially in situations where I’m not at fault. As an example, a customer I was helping dropped his phone earlier today, and I said, “Sorry.” It’s a reflexive response for me. The customer even said, “What are you sorry for? You didn’t do anything.”
        In situations where I’m in the wrong, I will continue to use “sorry.”

        1. Koala dreams*

          Thanks for the explanation! So you want to keep using “I’m sorry” but only in the special meaning of acknowledging fault, and stop using it in other meanings. I see! That explains a lot of things I’ve been reading online, actually.

          And wow, you have some rude customers! What’s wrong with “thank you” when someone expresses sympathy to you? (At least it comes across as rude to me, perhaps it sounded better in person?) Good luck with finding new expressions!

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Them: “What are you sorry for? You didn’t do anything.”
            You: “That’s right. I say it as an expression of regret not as a statement of guilt.”

            FWIW, what an a$$ to say that to you.

            I know my over apologizing actually did center around stuff like this example here. Do to no fault of my own someone dropped something and out came “sorry!”.
            A go-to that I worked with was “oops!”, then an appropriate pause for the setting, then “Is it [are you] okay?”
            If you know the person, you might go with, “oh gosh! My phone jumps out of my hand like that also! Is your phone okay?”
            An exclamation such as “oops” or “oh gosh” became my lead word. The word “sorry” just fell out of my mouth before I even knew I said it. So I had to find another lead-in word.

            Breaking it down just a bit further, you are not wrong for showing concern. Expressing regret is just one way of showing concern. You can still show concern. As situations come up, ask yourself, “how can I express concern here?” With the phone, you could say, “Ya got that okay?” if it looked like the person was having a bit of a time trying to reach it.

            I have met these people who think that “sorry!” is an admission of guilt. I have often wondered how it goes for them at funerals, when someone says, “Sorry for your loss!”. Do they think each of these apologizers cause the deceased to become– you know– deceased? What is up with this line of thinking, anyway.

          2. ApologizesTooMuch*

            Thank you! And to clarify, this particular customer didn’t come off as rude; the tone was more, “you don’t need to apologize for something I did.” It just reinforced for me that I really do fall back on “sorry” a lot. :)

        2. Kay*

          Keep thinking about it! Think about what you would rather say, analyze why you said what you did, practice saying your preferred response out loud, get comfortable with silence, practice stopping to think before you say anything. It will be a process and you will learn what works best for you, but realizing you want to change is the first step.

    26. Meg*

      I do the thank you thing too. Another thing that helped me/stuck with me was the Julia Child wrote in her memoir about never apologizing, even when serving someone a burned dinner or something. For some reason that really stuck with me, and I think about it a lot. I’ve noticed that I’ve been saying sorry less. Another thing I do in work settings if instead of apologizing, stating that I’m thinking out loud. Instead of saying oh, sorry, I don’t know if this makes sense, naming what’s happening. Naming that I’m talking it through and haven’t previously thought it through (obviously in settings where that makes sense–not derailing or monopolizing meetings or anything). It was uncomfortable at first, but I’ve gotten more used to saying it. It’s hard and it takes time.

    27. New Mom*

      This can be a process. I was also a chronic apologize-r and I have had to work hard to improve. I can be quite anxious and for some reason the apologizing seems to temporarily relieve the momentary tense situation but it undermines in the long run. It’s definitely something that you’ll have to keep at.

      Try pausing before talking and thinking about what you are about to say. The “I’m sorry” may be so automatic at this point that it doesn’t require thinking, so if you pause and think about what you are going to say it can help.

    28. TennisFan*

      I’ve struggled with this and at the root of it is what energy I’m bringing to an interaction. For example, how I come across if I’m saying sorry to the cashier because I’m empathetic to their having to deal with an extra inconvenience around change versus saying sorry because I don’t want them to get mad at me. Or, at work, if I’m saying sorry as a way to acknowledge a mistake, or because I’m fearful of how the other person will respond to what I’ve said or done, even when I don’t believe I’ve done anything wrong.

      Of course, it’s not easy to change your internal emotional state, but I’ve practiced a lot thinking about what I want to convey before I say something or interact with somebody. It’s often a two steps forward, one step back kind of thing, but overall I’ve noticed I’m definitely using the word sorry less as a default for when I feel uncomfortable.

    29. Freelance Anything*

      Yes, absolutely. AAM really highlighted that for me (though over-apologising had always been a pet peeve, I did need to work on it myself)

      I approached it one interaction at a time. So I’d pick a scenario where I felt an apology wasn’t necessary and wrote myself a new response, and just worked on saying that instead. For me, it was mostly practice but knowing what I wanted to say instead let me pick something that I was happy to say/wouldn’t come off unpleasantly.

      So, using your example:
      ‘I’m sorry, I don’t have exact change’ became ‘I don’t have exact change, is that okay?’ or ‘is a twenty, okay?’
      It’s fine to be polite and considerate of retail workers time so I don’t mind adding the question. Key thing is that you’ve already started to end the apologies.

      ‘I’m sorry that took so long’ when relieving cover becomes ‘Anything exciting happen while I was gone?’ or ‘Have you seen those delicious looking cookies in the canteen today?’ and you can thrown on a ‘Thank you’ if you want to more explicitly acknowledge the cover.

      1. ApologizesTooMuch*

        Thank you, Freelance! This is such a great idea. I’ll definitely come up with some scripts for those situations where “sorry” isn’t really necessary.

      2. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

        Yes – for the “hi, I’m back” greeting, I think something like “hey, how’s it going” could fit nicely. That creates an opening for them to tell you anything of note. Then when you’re taking over again, you can wrap up the conversation with “thanks” – which is partly “thanks for the handover”.

    30. RagingADHD*

      First off, if you haven’t seen Baroness von Sketch’s skit about the woman who never apologizes, you should look it up on YouTube immediately.

      Saying sorry isn’t a problem. Saying it as a mindless habit, or as a way of erasing your own needs, is the problem.

      I think it’s useful to distinguish in your own mind when you are using it as social lubricant equivalent to “excuse me,” when you are using as a real though very minor apology (like exact change), and when you are being needlessly apologetic for existing (like taking your normal break). And of course, real apologies for real mistakes or offenses.

      Really, only the third category is a problem.

      The most powerful thing you can do toward changing your habits of speech is just to slow down, listen to yourself, and be intentional with your words. Sometimes “sorry” is the right word. Sometimes it’s “excuse me” or “thank you”.

      Sometimes it’s none of the above, and the right word is just “hi.”

          1. Caterpillow*

            From The Land of I’m Sorry and the Baroness Von Sketch, we tend to overdo “I’m Sorry “ a lot. Here in Canada, it can be tonal from apologetic to sarcastic to rather outraged. I did replace an over abundance of “I’m sorries” with genuine thanks and appreciation when interacting with clerks and, sometimes, compliments towards clerks who have suffered at the hands of customers before me.

    31. Failed Manager*

      Help! I am a complete failure in my career. I am in a job that I love until the other day. I am now working with a program manager who is friends with people from my former company. She is friends with my former manager who removed me from my position. I spent a lengthy car ride with her and another lead. They talked about people’s performances. I am playing everything in my head on what I said in the car ride. I believe she knows that I failed and she can tell that I didn’t amount to much as I am still an individual contributor at age 50. The thing is should I am afraid that she is going to tell everyone that I failed at my job. I have decided that I am going to work hard and make I nail everything on this project. I also applied for a manager position at this company. I did not get it. I was relieved. They asked me to do a career plan. I have started what I have on my career plan. The company has given me some great opportunities. The thing is that when I asked on the job interview if I was removed. I said I left the position. Of course I was asked what was scaring me about getting the job. I think they know. The question I have should I disclose that I failed at leadership?

  2. I'll circle back with you*

    Earlier this week my company had a meeting that touched on the (new) review process, which includes us rating ourselves and then our bosses rating us. Within my team chat room, of 12 people, one of my teammates made a comment about the amount of time we were given to complete it, and then our boss (department head) says this in the chat –

    You all better give yourselves 11/10
    On a scale of 5
    hahaha

    The more I think about it, the more irritated I get at his comment and think it was so inappropriate. My boss tends to say things without thinking and is extremely conflict avoidant with certain people, but this might be one of the cringiest things he’s said. For instance, I am one of 4 people who share the same role, but there is this 1 coworker at this role who is lazy and does 1/4th of the stuff the rest of us do, with our boss enabling her. I also want to mention he sticks me with the most responsibility.

    It’s problematic of him to say that too because what if someone wants a promotion? According to his comment, does that mean he’s going to give all 12 of us promotions? By him saying this, I think he’s essentially saying there is nothing none of us need to improve on.

    It’s super early here and I’m having trouble articulating why I’m so bothered by this. But at least when it comes time for reviews I can put “exceeds expectations” and put it back on him on what I need to do to get promoted.

    1. The New Normal*

      It almost sounds like he thinks he is going to be held responsible if you don’t all give 5/5. Like he is covering his own butt by saying everyone better rate themselves superior so he rates superior. But he doesn’t realize it is just going to look like no one is taking it seriously.

    2. Harriet*

      The problem with this kind of system (we have it too) is that your thoughtful, self-aware/self-critical coworkers are giving themselves 3s and 4s according to their strengths and weaknesses, while the loudmouth, far-too-full of themselves wastes of space are giving themselves 5s. For this reason, I think the self-evaluation is not very useful.

      1. Jax*

        As a manager who worked with one of those systems, I agree with you. It revealed which employees struggled with self-confidence or were overly self-critical, and made me feel sad for a couple of my best employees who couldn’t see their own value.

        I also knew (where I worked) no one in HR/senior leadership was read the damn things, anyway! They were skimmed for completion, filed away, and employees were given an automatic 2% raise that direct managers could request to reduce down to 1% for terrible employees. The whole system was a waste of time.

      2. Lady Ann*

        I have an employee who gives herself 5/5 in every area, every year, even the year she was on a PIP.

        When I talked to her about it, she said, “Why would I give myself anything else?”

        Sigh.

        1. TerraTenshi*

          I hate to say this but I agree with your employee. You can argue that it shows a lack of self awareness but, unless your company is a rare exception, it’s generally well known that this stuff either A) doesn’t matter or B) is essentially a game you’re playing to try and get the highest score/biggest raise possible. In the vast majority of companies annual raises are essentially set in stone by people at the top with very little wiggle room (and most of it down, not up) so why would you ever rate yourself down and give the company an excuse to lower your already less than COL/inflation “raise” even further?

          1. Lady Ann*

            To me, when an employee does this it shows they either have no self awareness or are refusing to participate in the review process. The idea is to have a conversation about your work performance, what you did well, and what you could improve on. The reviews are only very loosely tied to our raises. If you just give yourself a 5/5 on everything it says “I don’t even care enough about this job requirement to bs it” which IMO is a bad look.

            1. Usagi*

              There’s obviously no “right” answer here since it really depends on the company, but for what it’s worth I think you’re both right. I think TerraTenshi is right in that for many companies (from my experience), the raises aren’t really tied to your self-evaluation, and those evals aren’t actually read by anyone higher than maybe your boss’ boss. But Lady Ann, I believe you’re right too in that to your immediate supervisor, plus maybe their supervisor, it’s a really bad look.

              At my last job, I oversaw a lot of entry-level, fresh-out-of-college employees. Some were fantastic, others not so much, but one place I pretty consistently had challenges was during annual evaluation time. Pretty much every employee, at least for their first three or so years with my company, wouldn’t know how to handle them. A+ fantastic employees would give themselves lower scores, focusing on their areas of opportunity, and then people that were solid “meh” would give themselves full marks. Which of course would make me and my supervisor feel like they were seriously lacking in some self-awareness.

              And while I would spend a bunch of time with everyone to help them adjust their evals to be more realistic, in the end, the raises were CoL plus X%, determined by HR. While I had the opportunity to argue for a different amount, as TerraTenshi said, when it was approved, it was almost exclusively down, not up. I can only think of one case off the top of my head where it went up, and that was for an employee that was so very obviously amazing that her projects were being seen by several directors across the company.

        2. Dasein9*

          I do this, with the caveat that I give myself a 4/5 for the one or two things I don’t want to do or be known for.

          Thing is, I am overqualified for the job I’m in and am a very high performer. Still, if there’s an area where I need improvement, I need my managers to say so outright.

          1. Your Local Password Resetter*

            Depends on if your bosses know you’re doing it. If they already know you’re a 3/5, then you just look like you overestimate yourself.

            But then again, if they already know they shouldn’t need you to rate yourself.

      4. Your Local Password Resetter*

        I think this kind of numerical x/5 evaluation is pretty useless in general, unless you follow it up with much more in-depth discussions and nuance. In that case it could be useful as a starting point. But that’s a lot harder and more work.

    3. College Career Counselor*

      I suspect you’re bothered because
      a) you’re wondering if your boss is taking it seriously
      b) you’re wondering if ANYone will take it seriously
      c) you’re hoping for a raise/promotion and your observation of the employee protected by your boss indicates that the answer to a) and b) is “no.”

      I think you’re right to put exceeds expectations (particularly those he has for the 25% productive employee) and see about that promotion.

    4. pancakes*

      You said that he tends to say things without thinking. It doesn’t make sense to put more energy into thinking about what he might have meant or ascribe more meaning to it than he himself did. By all appearances this was an offhand remark on his part. Whether it reflects actual expectations he has or not, you’re all free to rate yourselves however you would’ve if he hadn’t said anything at all, no?

    5. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      It’s hard for me to figure out why it’s getting under your skin so much. If he says cringeworthy things all the time, I’d think you would have developed calluses for this stuff – but why this in particular bothers you I don’t know. Maybe because it directly affects your well-being, while his other off-the-cuff comments you can just put down as “Fergus being Fergus”.

      But I think the bottom line is that your boss doesn’t really know how to do performance reviews, or he’s so conflict avoidant (and reviews often are conflict situations) that he’s spiraled off into his own head. There’s a chance he does know, but he’s so verbally inept that he can’t say it out loud.

      I think you should not write down in your self-review anything that directly says “I do more work than my slacker coworker.” You can say that you handle an above-average workload, that you handle the high-responsibility tasks. I think you should also reflect on why you say “he sticks me with the most responsibility”, instead of “he trusts me with the most responsibility.” You can turn that around in your head and do more along the lines of “The department has consistently relied on me to handle the higher-risk, higher-responsibility, etc. tasks like and .” Which is your wedge for then getting a promotion — you’ve already demonstrated that you can handle bigger-impact things.

      1. I'll circle back with you*

        This is great, thank you. And great point, it reflect my well-being as well as my co-workers.

    6. Random HR Lady*

      I worked in a self evaluation system for years. For the record I have always been a fantastic employee and got top marks from my supervisors. BUT I would NEVER rate myself down. That is like giving them ammo. Nope, it is a dumb system and I would not put it writing that I thought I was doing anything wrong on an annual eval.

    7. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

      Honestly though, I hate that people expect humility when it comes to rating yourself for potential raises/promotions. I don’t go into interviews to tell people that I’m a middle of the road candidate, I go into them telling them that I am the best choice. So just because this is internal and I already have a job should I now decide to announce my weaknesses in a forum that is determining whether or not I get additional compensation or a new role? I’m fine discussing my areas of improvement in a different forum, but I will forever talk myself up in my performance reports (especially since I’m an off-site employee, only employee of the company on my site, my boss works on a completely different site, and never visits me (security reasons he can’t get on my site)). Again, I’m not delusional that I don’t have things I need to work on. I just talk about my successes and don’t put the negatives in my self-assessment.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yep. Especially since there are other ways to get information about how people perceive their own work. A boss could just ask, “Where would you like more help or support?”. If the employee says, “No, I am good here.” the boss can continue with, “Your X report is due on Tuesday. It’s been coming to me on Wednesday afternoon. What do you need in order to get that report to me on Tuesday?”

        I have often thought of those “rate yourself” things as a total waste of time. Whatever I write down does not matter. It only matters what the boss rates me on. I get that it’s supposed to open a conversation. But I also see that it’s a technique picked out by people who never use it and the people who do use the system have very little idea of what to do with it. Eval questions need to be drafted with inputs from the managers who will actually be using the eval sheet.

        1. Fran Fine*

          I like your examples of questions managers should be asking instead. Since many evals I’ve taken part in don’t, I BS them and will continue to do so until these companies stop asking for them.

    8. Indy Dem*

      When I first read it, it seemed like an awkward way for you boss to say that all of you are great and 11/10 performance! (and shades of This Is Spinal Tap to me). But I guess that perception of what he said also depends on how your boss thinks about your team (it sounds like he doesn’t get how the actual work load is done).

    9. RagingADHD*

      You’re there and I’m not, but it just sounded to me like he was being generally complimentary / supportive in a lighthearted way.

      11/10 on a scale of 5 is quite obviously not intended to be literal, because if it were literal it would be nonsense.

      1. I'll circle back with you*

        I get that he meant to be supportive and positive, but it’s an unprofessional thing for a manager to say. Like someone said, it comes across as not taking it seriously.

        1. RagingADHD*

          I think it’s entirely possible for people to take a work task seriously, or to take each other seriously as human beings, without taking every word that passes their lips seriously.

          It sounds to me like you are at Jerk Eating Crackers stage with this guy. Probably for good reason. But the comment itself doesn’t seem any more unprofessional than any other work-appropriate joke.

  3. Admin help*

    I share an admin assistant with about half a dozen colleagues (we’re all low/mid six figure professionals). Our admin’s job includes things like managing our calendars and meetings, handling financial and work order requests on our behalf, and managing paperwork and forms submitted by our group to help with billing/record-keeping.

    I’m very grateful to have our admin’s help! But one thing I’ve noticed about his work is that he doesn’t seem to follow up on the tasks I delegate to him that take more than a day or so to complete, which leads to them taking much longer to resolve than they should. This has happened at least 5 times in the past few months and in some cases has really hindered my work.

    It seems like the root cause is that he doesn’t have a system for keeping track of pending requests and initiating follow-ups himself as needed. He only follows up and looks into why things aren’t completed when I remind him (and I usually wait until several weeks have passed with no updates or resolution).

    Any tips for working successfully with an admin like this? Of note, our admin reports to a senior admin who’s outside of our group, so I’m not his manager or in his managerial chain.

    1. RT*

      Sounds like he needs a ticketing system or trello board to keep track of things. There must be some sort of internal tool that is used for PM/Task Listing that he can use. Otherwise there are plenty of free apps that allow everyone to collaborate.

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        Yup, came here to say this. Having a CRM where you can ‘assign’ tasks to your admin so that they can have easy access to them would probably be a gamechanger for them. I’d be interested in hearing how you and the rest of the team assign tasks currently.

    2. Deep Sigh*

      Tell him why this is a problem for you and ask him what his ideas are, as applicable to his own daily workstream, that would resolve this.

      1. Momma Bear*

        I would talk to him. He may also be insufficiently juggling everyone’s priorities and it’s not so much that he’s ignoring you but another fire is hotter.

        If you don’t do so already, consider cc’ing people when needed and being really clear on deadlines. If it something more intensive, ask about his tasks and priorities so you are both on the same page.

        1. SpiderLadyCeo*

          Yep, this. If he works for a group, it could just be that multiple things come up that are more urgent. I would be clear with deadlines, and also chat with him to see what’s going on.

    3. Artemesia*

      You have 5 instances of failure to follow up. That should give you portfolio to sit down with him and suggest a follow up system for your work because you were delayed when the Fergus project was not completed on time and the Jones paper was late and the Carstairs project required extra reminders. You assumed he was taking for example these three follow up steps and were surprised when it should be completed and still had several steps to go. ‘I need you to have a system to follow up on my projects so we aren’t delayed again. Here is an idea:………. do you think you could try that on this project and see if it works well?’ Whether he does it with others is not your problem. Figure out a tickler system and then follow up more tightly for awhile.

      1. Artemesia*

        FWIW. Someone I know actually had her boss sit down with her in her very first job in a PR firm and teach her to make lists to guide her work. She had not every learned to do that and so things were getting dropped.

    4. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

      Do you give him deadlines? If there are six of you giving requests he could be prioritizing yours lower because others are giving more specific deadlines or are hounding him to get theirs done faster. Just because the task only takes a small amount of time to complete doesn’t mean that it gets prioritized.

      I’m not an admin assistant but I am a person that gets tasking from numerous different people. I appreciate one group that sends me a weekly email summarizing everything that they have sent me with the associated dates that they need a response from me. That way I can fold it into my priorities list faster and not have to go searching through all of my emails to see who sent me what. (Squeaky wheel gets the grease).

      Also, maybe you can talk to him to see what would help him better track your items (i.e. like the email I get sent).

    5. A Girl Named Fred*

      Former admin here – the one thing I’d add to what everyone else has already suggested (re: a better method of tracking, seeing if there’s anything else he’d need from you) is to make sure that when you’re assigning the task, you’re attaching a due date to it. You might already be doing that and just didn’t mention it, and if so, great! But if not, it is very, very easy for an admin reporting to multiple people to see “task with no due date” as “task that can be put off until I’m caught up and/or until someone checks on it.” Of course, ideally he would be asking you for a due date if you don’t provide one (IE something like “With my current tasks, I can get to this by X date. Does that work on your end?”) but if he doesn’t and you have a due date make sure to communicate it. Good luck!

    6. Admin help*

      Thank you everyone! I will talk to him and see if there are project management tools he can use to help him keep a log of pending tasks. I know that our company pays for subscriptions to several for certain groups, and there are free apps out there as well.

      Our admin does well in completing “single touch” tasks where he only has to do one discrete thing — he always gets those done promptly (same day/week) and I never have to set a deadline or follow up about them. The struggle (and a big reason our group has an admin, imo) is in navigating all the bureaucracy and red tape in our very large company, where a task requires follow-up with potentially multiple different groups to figure out where it’s situated or stalled in the process. I can’t really impose a deadline on those types of things, because it’s not in any one person’s control, and even a seamless process with no delays could take a variable amount of time. It would really help me out if our admin kept a running log of the statuses of these types of tasks and reached out proactively to the appropriate groups when things aren’t moving along in the process.

      I should also note that both the admin and I are new-ish to the company, so there’s a learning curve on both of our ends. I have repeatedly gotten the sense that some of the delays on the admin’s end are because he doesn’t yet know how to navigate the red tape and who to contact for certain things. There are several instances where I’ve had to loop in a senior admin from another group to help me with time-sensitive things after our group’s admin couldn’t finish the task in a reasonable period of time.

      1. Ginger Baker*

        I think it would be worth specifying your expectations in a conversation (or try while assigning a new task and see if it takes): “I need you to follow this all the way through to completion without me having to check in on it. If people [who need to do the next step] aren’t responding in time, please nudge them and if you have followed up twice and still not gotten a response, flag that for me so we can sort it out. [Senior Admin] is a great resource on stuff like this and probably has several tricks for how to get these things done smoothly and who to chase down to get results.”

      2. Not So NewReader*

        He is assisting 6 people and he has missed 5 things in three months? It seems like he is doing pretty good actually. Yeah, he needs a plan to recall tasks that carry over to a different day.
        Currently I leave post-its on my computer screen. In the past, I have made follow up lists. I had wrote these in a note book because hand writing re-enforces my ability to remember.
        Clearly his intent it to complete everything asked of him. It sounds like a real lot is asked of him.

    7. Mockingjay*

      It sounds like he has a heavy workload. I work in and have managed shared support staff and teams. Overtasking and conflicting priorities happen very easily and very frequently. You give him stuff, then someone else gives him something and tells him, “my task is high priority.” So yours gets dropped lower in the queue or forgotten. It’s a cascade of competition. Also consider the amount of tasks. You give him what you consider a reasonable amount of work. Multiply that by six, it’s likely more work than one staff can handle.

      People always advise an admin to use a personal system to remember tasks, but the real need is for a department task system. One in which Admin’s supervisor can review the backlog and help determine competing priorities. Whatever the solution is, make sure his supervisor is in on it. They need to know.

      1. Admin help*

        A departmental-wide system is a really good idea. Based on my conversations with our admin, it doesn’t seem like such a system is being used among the admin group, though other groups in the company have project management software available to them.

        I’m the most junior member of my group and this is my first experience having an admin assistant. I do my best to be mindful of our admin’s workload and not give him much work from my end except for the kinds of tasks that only he has the access to (i.e., our PTO system, the supplies and equipment ordering interface, our reimbursement process, etc.). Of the other people our admin supports, there are two that are one or two levels above me in the organizational hierarchy and thus who tend to use him more for administrative work. Of those at my level in the group, there is one person who frequently asks the admin to type up notes, take meetings at minutes, and manage his calendar, but my sense is that the others at my level and me don’t ask much of him. I manage my own calendar, schedule my own meetings, etc.

    8. Dragon*

      Is it possible your admin is overloaded? Or is there a pecking order among the six of you he works for?

      Maybe others are making more demands on him, and expect him to prioritize theirs first.

  4. Moth*

    I’m expecting a baby in a couple of months and told my employer recently. We offer 12 weeks of paid leave, though it runs concurrently with FMLA (which makes sense — I understand that part). They requested that I start the FMLA paperwork now, so that everything is in place ahead of time. I plan to take the full 12 weeks after the baby is born.

    However, as part of the FMLA paperwork, my employer requires a medical certification from my doctor. I was confused because the documents they gave me regarding the certification seem to state specifically that they cannot require a medical certification if the FMLA is for bonding time with a new baby. When I pushed back gently and pointed out the exclusion clause, they said that l must be confusing things and said that my doctor will know how to fill the medical certification out.

    The problem is that the medical certification asks for when I’ll be medically able to return to work and what the plan for that would be. My plan is to transition back to work with the last part of that 12 weeks (e.g., 2 days per week back for a couple of weeks and then 3 days per week back), but not for medical reasons per se, just because I think that will be a better option for myself and the baby.

    However, that might be why they want the medical certification, because baby bonding appears to rehire you to take the entire 12 weeks at once without any sort of ability to transition unless the employer is okay with it.

    My moderately-sized company deals with a lot of pregnancies (and adoptions), so I’m sure they do this every time and haven’t had much push back on it. This seems off to me, but I’m wondering if I’m just missing something.

    Does anyone know if there is a valid reason for work requiring that I submit a medical certification for the 12 weeks of FMLA I plan to take after giving birth? And if so, what if my doctor just marks that I need 72 hours (or however long) after birth before I’m released from the hospital and technically cleared to work? I don’t want to ask my doctor to lie for me on the medical clearance and state that I need the full time and the specific transition back plan that I’m wanting. But if this is normal for companies and you need to submit a medical certification for part of it or something, I don’t want to pick this as my hill.

    1. Just me, on this one.*

      I’m assuming you’re in the U.S., since you refer to FMLA. I’ll speak from my own experience. It’s medical standard for a minimum of 6 weeks for new mothers to recover from birth*. 8 if C-section, I believe (recovery for that is more medically cumbersome). When it was time to go back to work, in my case, my doctor just asked if I was ready. If I had said no (for any reason) I believe they would have extended the “medically required” postpartum time to anything up to the max 12 weeks. What I’m getting at, is you and your doctor have a lot of discretion at what it means to be ready to go back to work. As an over-thinker myself, I think you’re overthinking it. :)

      *I have heard of doctors allowing people to go back sooner when they’re doing okay medically, but it’s usually because the patient requires the income that they’re missing out on.

      1. InfrequentCommenter*

        I can’t remember all the particulars of my post-partum FMLA experiences, but Just Me, this tracks with my recollection. I remember my doctor asking me prior to my deliveries if/when I planned to return to work and letting me know that they would provide the paperwork needed to support that decision as long as there were no medical concerns at the time. OP, I would raise this concern at your next medical checkup. I’m sure your doctor’s office is well-versed in this and may provide you some peace of mind.

      2. ThisIsTheHill*

        +1.

        I don’t have kids, but I did have a hysterectomy – one of the old school slice & dice (read: C-section) types because my condition made it nearly impossible to have it done laparoscopically. My initial paperwork had me out for 2 months. As the return-to-work date approached, my doctor asked if I needed additional time off & would have submitted documentation to my employer if I had said “yes”. It’s fairly common to have an estimated return date that is updated later.

    2. Corporate Minion*

      I think you might be over thinking this a little. Normally, you would get 6-10 weeks on short term disability (depending on vaginal or C-section) to recover. So your dr would probably say something like that.

      It IS weird they require a medical certification. I don’t remember that requirement when I went through it. It might be worth discussing with your dr to see their take. They have probably dealt with this before and may know how to handle it.

      In my experience, I needed to indicate I was pregnant and then give a guess-timate on the date I would got out (I used my due date) and when I would return.

      If you want to transition back, it seems like you could ask HR how to fill out the form.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      Normal – just tell the doc your plan and they will fill it out accordingly. In general, they will put down 6-8 weeks required medical leave (depending on vaginal or C-section birth) before you are medically cleared to work along with a blurb giving “permission” for up to 12 weeks. The docs know what to right – it is very regulated.

    4. Murphy*

      You’re entitled to take off for 12 weeks, but they still need the medical certification. Even if the medical certification says 6/8 weeks, you can still take more.

      I did 8 weeks completely off and then two weeks of part time. It was all under FMLA and it was fine. I wasn’t allowed to use “sick” leave after 8 weeks because I was medically cleared to come back, but I could still take the time.

    5. Momma Bear*

      It’s been a minute, but I think there was a paper that my OB filled out re: recovery time (6 or 8 weeks, minimum). We also had short term disability in there with our FMLA, so your HR may be looking at that as well. I doubt my doctor lied to cover me for 12 weeks. I took 2 weeks of my own leave, 6 weeks of disability, and 4 weeks unpaid covered by FMLA. Office also wanted their papers in advance because sometimes babies do not get the memo about when to arrive.

      I’m sure your doctor has also seen this form before. You can ask them as well as HR.

    6. SoonToBeExHRperson*

      The FMLA paperwork is for medical confirmation that you have a need to take the leave. Unless your employer has made their own forms breaking things out, it’s the same form regardless of reason. For FMLA to be granted, you will have to fill out a medical form.

      I’ve read 100’s of these during my career and births generally come with 6-8 weeks recovery time from the employee’s medical condition that occurs as result of giving birth. That’s for your medical recovery time and while included with the bonding time it’s not taking away from the 12 week total time. It’s highly unlikely that this is some attempt to keep you from using the full paid leave promised, it’s just clicking off legal requirements related to FMLA (which is a federal thing, not your employers rules).

      If you have short term disability insurance through work, ask your employer for information on how to apply for it too.

      If your employer doesn’t automatically give you an FMLA approved letter or form once you submit your paperwork, request one. They are supposed to provide it. Also, get everything about how your paid and unpaid leave will work in writing, so you have it for reference and reassurance. I always produce letters and a calendar for my folks going out on FMLA, so they know exactly how their parental leave and other leaves with interact and when we dip into each type.

    7. AnotherLibrarian*

      My understanding of DOL Form WH-380-E Certification of Health Care Provider for Employee’s Serious Health Condition is that they can not require it for a healthy baby. So, I’d email HR and ask for clarity. I just finished a million emails to HR re: FML and they are the ones best positioned to explain. Once I got the right benefits person (most places seem to have one or two people who specialize in this stuff) things got much easier.

    8. Sabrina Spellman*

      What does your employer require by way of medical certification? My OB had to complete a portion of my FMLA paperwork basically to say that giving birth will require me to be off work for a period of time, and then they had to certify that I was permitted to return to work about a week or so before my leave was up.

    9. Gnome*

      I had to do that. You obviously don’t know ahead of time what you’ll really need. You could have an easy birth and be ready to go, or there could be issues that keep you or the baby out longer (I hope not!). This is probably more along the lines of making sure they treat it all the same more than anything else or for auditing or something.

    10. Not the hill to pick*

      Confirming this is typically just procedural- they basically just need the doctor to confirm that you are in fact having a baby. I didn’t even see what my doctor put for return to work but I took the full 12 weeks under FMLA both times I gave birth, and I did my short term disability and FMLA paperwork months in advance. You will have to update your STD and FMLA folks once you *actually* have your baby (unless you start your leave earlier on a set date).

      In terms of your proposed transition back schedule- that is in fact up to your employer, so you can and should negotiate that piece of it. I don’t know if your job is one that can be done remotely, but I did ask to work fully remotely for a couple months, which my employer did agree to (but I also was willing to expend all my capital/good will on it).

      Wish you a smooth, uncomplicated pregnancy, delivery, and recovery!

    11. Overeducated*

      If I were you, I’d continue to push back, and if you have to do it, work with your doctor to ensure that the form says your return to work plan is based not just on physical recovery, but also your legal entitlement to leave for bonding with the baby. Although I can’t speak to your employer’s policies, you’re right that FMLA includes bonding time separate from physical recovery – this is how fathers and non-birthing-mothers can use it!

      My experience when I had my last child was that my employer didn’t offer paid leave, but I was able to use my sick and annual leave concurrently with FMLA. I also wanted to use intermittent FMLA toward the end of my leave to have more of a transition back to work. What I did was use my sick leave for the first 4 weeks after birth (because that’s what I had banked) for “medical recovery,” and then I invoked FMLA ONLY for bonding for the subsequent 8 weeks. That gave me 4 weeks of FMLA left to use intermittently and ramp up my return to work slowly. I did not invoke FMLA for medical reasons at all, and did not provide a doctor’s certification, because I was not applying for it for that reason.

      I had to have multiple conversations with our HR folks who were like “…I have to check on whether you can do that, let me follow up with you” after I literally read them the text of the law AND our employer handbook. (They also said “well, we only have to hold your job for 12 weeks,” at which I just laughed because it takes them a year to fill positions, there was no way they were going to fire or replace me for coming back part time for a couple months.) Given this experience, I’d be really wary of getting something on paper saying “approved return to work date” that could be misunderstood by people who think one size fits all.

    12. Moth*

      Thanks everyone for the feedback. It helps to know that this is a pretty common request. I’ll plan to continue to talk to my HR about my concerns, but I’ll also bring the form to my next OB appointment and have them fill out the paperwork.

      My concern comes in that the FMLA paperwork states that the leave is for, “The birth of a child, or placement of a child with you for adoption or foster care, and to bond with the newborn or newly placed child.” It specifically does not mark that it’s for “Your own serious health concern”. Then in the medical certification portion, in the directions to the employer, it states, “Additionally, you *may not* request a certification for FMLA leave to bond with a healthy newborn child or a child placed for adoption or foster care” (emphasis theirs). Since FMLA grants 12 weeks of leave to bond with a healthy newborn child, it would make sense to me that this is what the paperwork is about, rather than the medical recovery time (since the paperwork doesn’t indicate that this is for my own health concern).

      I probably am overthinking this, but I’m also trying to think of what they’re requesting of parents during a stressful and busy time of their lives. I know it’s not that much more work to get these signoffs and then have my provider fill out a medical release for return to work later, it just seems like a lot of hoops to jump through for something that it seems to me FMLA doesn’t require. But again, it sounds like it’s pretty normal for companies to ask for this, so I’m not sure how far I’m willing to push on what may be a semantics issue.

      1. LizB*

        As someone totally inexperienced in this, it reads to me like the employer is not allowed to ask for a certification for leave that is only for bonding time, but since you’re asking for leave that will be medical recovery plus bonding time, they’re allowed to get a certification for at least that first part. So if you’re adopting a baby or are a non-birthing parent, they can’t make you get a doctor’s note. Since you (it sounds like) will be physically birthing a baby, they are allowed to ask you to get a doctor’s note for that.

      2. Cascadia*

        I think this is standard practice. But, you mentioned lots of your coworkers have had babies recently. Why don’t you ask one of them?

  5. BLT*

    Tl;dr: Am I overreacting to this new policy at my office? Staff are now being required to email all other staff when they leave for their break and when they return daily.

    Background: I’ve worked at a small org for about 5 years, and it’s doubled in size during the time I’ve been here. In the beginning, it was just me and one other staff person, Sally, and so we’d casually check in with each other when we took our lunch/break or left the office for whatever reason. Now there are more staff people and we’re in a larger office space. Sally has become the de facto office manager, albeit reluctantly, and we have the same job title which is not at all related to office management.

    This week Sally told staff we need to send an email to all other staff every day when we leave to take our break and when we return. I feel as though I’ve gone from being treated like a responsible adult when I first started here, to a child who needs to ask for a hall pass every time I leave my office. In addition to this new policy, last year they began sending out daily emails listing where everyone was for the day, if they were traveling or WFH, had appointments, etc.– when we could just as easily check each others’ calendars or, yunno, ask someone directly.

    I gave it a day in case she was just ~in a mood~, then asked her what prompted this change. In a nutshell, it’s because Sally recently got a dog and although she never used to leave the office during the day, now she needs to leave every day to walk her dog. We don’t have set break times, so she wants to know when we come and go to make sure someone is always here. I asked if we could just check in in person/by intercom instead of emailing and she flipped out, asked why I was so upset about it (which, although internally I’m stewing, I can honestly say I approached her calmly). The conversation was tense and uncomfortable; she told me I’d have to do this at any other organization… which is not true. I’ve worked at several such businesses (including this one for the past 5 years!) and never had to do this; even in more junior roles I would just casually tell someone else when I was stepping away. She said if I have an issue with it I can take it up with the big boss, who we both know will probably shrug and say Sally is in charge.

    FWIW, we have zero walk-in business, have clients visit our office maybe 5 times in a year, we almost never get urgent phone calls, and staff do not need to answer phones for higher ups or cover a main phone line. I have no problem with checking in to make sure someone is always available, but the idea that we each need to send two emails a day about our break times is ridiculous to me.

    Does anyone else need to do this at their office? Is it worth taking this to the big boss or will it seem petty? Other staff agree it’s an overreach but don’t seem motivated to do anything about it. After Sally, I’m the most senior admin.

    1. Jean*

      I would escalate this to your boss, especially since Sally seems so weirdly torqued up about it. Also she shouldn’t be instituting new work policies for what’s essentially a personal problem of hers. She needs to work that out herself, not add a new work burden to everyone in the office.

      1. Momma Bear*

        I would push back because you already talked to Sally and are not clear about what’s really going on. It sounds like Sally has a problem that she’s not fully addressing. That needs to be resolved. Something else that could be utilized is the comment/status in Teams, for example. You can put “out of office until 2” or whatever. For someone to unilaterally demand this is off-putting, but what’s her overall thinking here? And does your boss get cc’d? That might get annoying…

        I have to wonder if this is actually about someone saying something to Sally about her dogwalking and rather than hire a dog walker or something, she’s turned it around to make it your problem.

    2. CatCat*

      I’m confused about whether Sally even has the authority to make this policy. I mean… what if you just don’t do it?

      1. Kate in Colorado*

        That’s what I was thinking. Why not just totally ignore her request that would inconvenience you for a *personal* problem of hers- it has nothing to do with you doing your job… so, just… don’t do it?

      2. BLT*

        It’s a weird situation. She has refused the title of “Office Manager”, she says because it would change her status from exempt to non-exempt, and she’s clinging to her current title which is more of a specialized career. But in practice she’s the big boss’s right hand person and does whatever needs doing, from measuring offices and ordering furniture to planning events and billing. Managing our growing number of employees is something she’s taken on reluctantly and not handled very well. The big boss is pretty hands off; does his own thing, lots of travel and little to no involvement in daily employee matters.

      3. Deep Sigh*

        That was my thought as well. Just don’t flag you’re stepping away for a break. You wouldn’t any time you need a restroom.

      4. Jax*

        This. Just…don’t do it.

        If you’re upset by it, I’m sure your coworkers aren’t happy with it either. There is power in numbers, and sometimes all it takes is one good employee to say, “Nah, I won’t be doing that,” to start the rebellion. You tried talking to Sally–talk to a few of your coworkers that you trust, and ask how they plan to handle it. A group of two or three of you could then approach Sally again, either with another solution or more push-back against the emails.

      5. RagingADHD*

        Right, don’t do it, and don’t ask your boss. Because you can ignore Sally, but you can’t ignore the boss.

    3. OtterB*

      My office also had trouble as the staff size grew. Shortly before Covid, we created a Staff Schedule channel on our Slack. This gets used two ways: Planned-ahead vacation time, which goes on our staff Google calendar, is automatically posted to the Slack each morning. And we post directly to the Slack partial-day or last-minute things like “Under the weather today, checking email intermittently” or “out for an appointment from 1-3”. It’s working pretty well for us. But we aren’t tracking down to the detail of break times, so I don’t know if it would work for that.

      1. Windchime*

        Before I retired, we did something similar. We had a Teams chat channel where we would post things like “Running a quick errand, back around 10:15”, “lunch, back in a few”, etc. When we were back, we would just say ” Back!” or something. This kept the team informed but wasn’t cluttering up mailboxes with notifications. For longer periods away, we would update our personal calendars as well as a team calendar on Sharepoint that our stakeholders could also see.

    4. Malarkey01*

      I don’t know how many staff you have but if I was getting 10+ emails a day that just said Jane going on break, Jane back and then Bob going on break, Bob back, etc I’d be annoyed. I’d maybe start there and just say this is going to flood our inboxes and no one is going to keep up with who is coming and going. IF there’s really a need to know when someone’s out a Google sheet where people list in and out time would help if you actually needed to double check when Bob went on break or if everyone’s there.

      1. BLT*

        I mentioned that the emails could get to be a lot. If all staff were in office and took their daily breaks it would be 10 emails a day. She rolled her eyes and said “We all get tons of emails, just delete them, it’s not a big deal!”

        1. Dasein9*

          Then REALLY send a lot of emails.
          Every bathroom break.
          Every trip to the printer.
          Annoy the hell out of Sally with the emails.

          (Don’t really do this. but it can be helpful to daydream it.)
          ((Don’t forget to send Sally an email before you indulge in a daydream.))

          1. Sleepless*

            I did read once about a lower-level employee back in the 50s whose boss sent out a memo telling everyone that all communication with him needed to be in writing. The guy started sending typed notes in the format they used back then, with “To:/From:/Re” etc, multiple times a day for things like “What time is it?” “Do you think the Yankees will win tomorrow?”

        2. Jax*

          She sounds fun.

          A good leader would share the problem, share her proposed solution, listen when employees give her feedback, ask for other solutions, and find a solution to the problem that everyone buys into.

          A terrible leader dictates a solution, then doubles down and screams when people point out problems with her solution.

          I’m firmly in camp non-compliance on this one. It sounds like you’re the most senior of all the staff–if you “forget” to send the emails, they will follow your lead. And if Big Boss is as hands off as you say, he’s not going to come back and enforce Sally’s email stupidity. He’s firmly shifted this problem on to her.

          1. BLT*

            1000% agree with you, and this is sort of the crux of the problem with her ledership/management. This new policy, and how she decided on it in the span of an hour with zero input is very on-brand for Sally.

            One time she couldn’t find something in an electronic file when a coworker was unexpectedly out, and so she created a whole new filing category that made more sense to her, thus creating inconsistencies across our other files and necessitating a shift going forward… on something she didn’t even normally have her hands on. :-|

            Ugh. I like her as a person and she does excellent work *in her chosen position*, but as a manager it’s real bad. I don’t see it getting better, so I might not stay at the org much longer.

      2. fueled by coffee*

        Agreed – focus on a tangibly irritated thing (“this is leading to a lot of unnecessary emails which makes it difficult for me to manage my work-related emails”) and some sort of static reference for people to check if they’re really concerned about coverage during breaks (or just… set up a system to ensure adequate coverage around people’s breaks? That doesn’t rely on individual “I’m heading out”/”I’m back” emails every time someone goes on break?).

    5. Aquawoman*

      I would not escalate this, and it does seem you are over-personalizing it. She wants to know that there is coverage, which I think is common. I’m not sure why you have to email everyone, but I don’t know why that’s a hill to die on. FWIW, we do the attendance thing every day also, it’s helpful.

        1. BLT*

          Correct, coverage isn’t actually needed. Sally is very stuck on the concept of coverage, but none of us answers anyone else’s phones and we don’t have clients or anyone else walking into the space unannounced. If my boss was ever trying to reach me he’d call my office phone, then my cell phone.
          During our “chat” about this, Sally justified the need because big boss recently called asking where an exec was. But she won’t be tracking execs the same way, and I’m actually in a different office space in the building so if I happened to be the only person available, I wouldn’t have a clue what was going on in the main office area.

      2. Loulou*

        I work in an actually coverage-based job, which it sounds like OP doesn’t, and even we don’t do this! Knowing who’s out today, yes. Knowing everyone’s schedule, yes. Notifying the whole team whenever we go for a break, absolutely not. We use our judgement as professionals to determine when we should tell someone we’re leaving, and what OP describes would rub me very much the wrong way.

    6. Cleo*

      Could you suggest using a different, less annoying, technology to track it?

      If you use Slack or Teams, you could ask people to change their little status icon when they have to step away. or maybe make a make a channel for Stepping Away that people could comment it.

      When we first started working remotely at a previous job, my boss wanted us to use the status icons to show when we stepped away. I’m not sure how useful it was, but it was easy to do.

    7. LadyByTheLake*

      I have a feeling that after a week of everyone’s email box being swamped by “I’m going on a break” emails, the madness will end. Either that or everyone simply plans to ignore it because it is such a ridiculous demand.

    8. Lady_Lessa*

      I would also encourage Sally to get a dog sitter. I know that my pet sitter used to offer mid day breaks for dogs for less money/less time than a normal visit.

      (Her visit for my cat is about 30 minutes once a day)

    9. Zephy*

      What if y’all had, like, a whiteboard in a common area where you could mark yourself In or Out with a return time? If you’re not constantly working together and just need to know who’s where at a glance? OldJob had something like that – we worked independently but occasionally needed to interact with each other, and coverage was a concern, so we just had a little whiteboard in the back with all our names on it. Name, in/out, time returning from lunch (or notes like “out all day,” “off,” “PTO,” “gone for day,” etc).

      1. Hell Job Escapee*

        This is what we have in my office. Everyone has their section with their name and we also have magnets labeled “Break,” “Lunch,” “PTO,” “In Late,” etc. So it’s super easy to throw up the magnet as I’m walking out the door for break or to let my coworkers know I’m not in the office first thing. We also have a shared PTO/Leave calendar in Outlook, so everyone can see if you’re out.

        1. BLT*

          This sounds very reasonable! I’d totally be willing to do that. Unfortunately I have low expectations of Sally being open to trying something different based on how she reacted to me earlier this week.

      2. Squidhead*

        My church does this for all the staff and leaders of community groups that use the space. It’s important that the last person out sets the alarm, for example, and the building is large enough that there would be no practical way to confirm whether anyone else was in the building. And the white board is easy to look at precisely in the way that a series of emails is not…with the emails, I’d need to read every conversation to see whether that person had returned yet or not and then (presumably) alter my actions accordingly.

    10. Free Meerkats*

      This is a case for malicious compliance. Every time you get up from your desk, email everyone something like, “Headed to the bathroom, may be a while!” Then, “Back at my desk! Do NOT go in there for a bit!!” “Going to lunch, be back a 1:14 PM!” Then at 1:10, “Back at my desk a bit early!” “Just getting up to stretch!”, 1 minute later, “Sitting back down, that felt good!!”

      1. Free Meerkats*

        And this will work much better if several of you do this. So muster the troops and get to emailing!

      2. Random HR Lady*

        I was going to say malicious compliance too! Bathroom, refilling my water bottle, break, going to make copies, etc.

    11. Not always right*

      We used Google chat at my old job. It’s quick, easy. Email seems quite cumbersome to use for this purpose.

    12. Hotdog not dog*

      In my current office the admins are paired with a backup. If one steps away they just need to let their “buddy” know. The rest of the team does not need or want to know who’s in the restroom at any given time.

    13. kittymommy*

      Ehh, depending on how long the breaks are I can see the point of it. I mean if it’s several 5 min. here and there during a work day – yeah, annoying and not helpful. But if someone is stepping away for 15-20 + at a time, having a notification would be good. Maybe it’s just the delivery method that’s annoying? Perhaps a group chat or “out” board would work better?

    14. Machine Ghost*

      This may have to do with Sally not actually wanting to be Office Manager. Because she’s the most senior staff she is now stuck with the responsibility, possibly on top of her regular duties, and with no recognition. Would you be willing to take over? If no then I think you should just do as she asks and not take it personally. She’s probably just trying to find a procedure that works best for her, not trying to control everyone else.

    15. Rosie*

      Honestly I think this will resolve itself in that either people will probably just keep doing as they’ve been doing or after a week of constant emails it’ll get nixed.

      But add the big boss to the emails if you do send them, Sally does want EVERYONE to know

      1. LizB*

        Yeah, I think Sally will rethink this pretty darn quick when her inbox is an unnecessary mess with everyone’s statuses.

    16. MissDisplaced*

      Well, it IS reasonable to want to know when people are on break versus available if you need to provide coverage for the public or phones.
      That said, this seems rather excessive.

      Back when email was just email, i did institute a name board for the department where people could write in days they were off that week (sick, vacation, appointments, half days, etc.). It was just a way to quickly glance and know who was there. But this wasn’t down to the lunch break level.

  6. Accidental Drama*

    I accidentally made a big deal out of nothing.

    I changed jobs this summer, and was really put off by the HR lady’s intrusive questions on my way out. She was way over the line in asking the details of the new position in a way that felt like she was trying to get leverage against me (among a long list of items, she demanded to know the precise job title, company name and branch location, etc.). I’d heard rumors that she was a snake, so I refused to discuss anything, and politely side-stepped casual “Good for you, where are you headed next?” type of questions from colleagues.

    I blocked her on LinkedIn and haven’t updated my profile because I want to establish a good reputation where I am before letting anyone know. But former colleagues are getting really nosy. People message me asking where I went, and a few have escalated to specifically calling me out in those “appreciate your colleague” anniversary LI posts.

    Now it feels like I poured gasoline on a tiny fire, but I did what felt necessary at the time. Several people who left the company told me that they thought she tried to cause trouble for them. I’m not sure where to go from here. 95% of my brain realizes this is silly and melodramatic, but my lizard brain is still freaking out. FWIW, I’m a mid-career SME in tech, in my first management role, and a woman.

    WWYD? Just keep ignoring LI until it all goes away?

    1. Artemesia*

      The fact that it is escalating makes clear you did the right thing. Just keep ignoring it till it goes away. I know of a situation where an employer did try to poison the well for someone who left by contacting their new employer and undercutting them. It made things awkward and probably did damage her reputation at the new place. Just continue to be cordial and vague if you run into people and ignore any emails that are trying to snoop and dig.

      You have good instincts.

    2. ENFP in Texas*

      I’d ignore them. They’re being nosy and curious and it’s not your obligation to share if you don’t want to. They’ll get bored eventually and find something else to focus on. You no longer work there so you don’t have a professional responsibility to them. You’re not friends outside of work, so you don’t have a personal responsibility to them.

      For the petty ones who are calling you out, you could respond with something like “I enjoyed my time working with you and wish you well in your career.” But you don’t have to justify your decision to them – feel free to just not respond at all.

    3. Jean*

      You are under zero obligation to engage with anything anyone sends via LinkedIn, ESPECIALLY if it feels nosy or otherwise makes you uncomfortable. Feel free to continue ignoring this as long as it lasts.

    4. Malarkey01*

      This is so weird that after months! people are still reaching out to you. I’d ignore it all and feel no need to respond (disclaimers I’m someone who thinks LI has become too social media like for some users and I don’t go on there unless I’m actually looking to change jobs or hiring and looking up folks).

    5. Corporate Minion*

      I have reached out to a few coworkers through LI to see where they were working now and what position. I was curious, excited for them, and wanted to see if it was someplace I might like to work myself.

      It never occurred to me anyone would feel the need to keep it private. If they had replied something like: I’m keeping it quiet for now so I can get established. I’ll update LI when I’m ready.
      I would have said okay, congratulated them again, and then moved on with my life.

      1. Jean*

        That information is readily available on the profiles of those who want it known, so why ask? I’m not trying to be rude, I’m honestly curious.

        1. Corporate Minion*

          Well sometimes people just don’t update stuff like that. I know a number of people who retired but never bothered updating their LI.

          In one of these cases, I found out after the person had left so I wanted to reach out personally to congratulate etc. because we had been very friendly in the office (we had our first kids at the same time). In this case, I reached out very quickly so in that case, it made sense that she hadn’t updated her LI yet. If I remember correctly, when I ask where/what she was doing, she said she would update her LI after she started. And I didn’t think anything of it.

          Asking what a person has moved onto feels like a natural part of these transitions and conversations. To me it is like asking a graduate what they hope to do next. -but maybe I’ve been conditioned to think that. When another coworker resigned, I was one of the only people who knew he didn’t have anything lined up. Many coworkers were asking where he was going and he didn’t know what to say. I think we came up with ‘weighing options’ or something as a response and people were content with that.

          1. Jean*

            Yeah see this is why you probably shouldn’t just assume it’s an oversight. If it’s not updated in their profile yet, there’s probably a good reason. And when someone doesn’t have a plan, like that person you mentioned, or if they got let go or there’s some other not-great circumstance around it, you’re putting them in an awkward place by asking. This is the kind of information that people would make known if they wanted to. If they’re not, it’s best to assume they have their reasons for not wanting it to be a topic of small talk.

    6. Grumpus*

      Ha, I had a somewhat similar experience (regarding LI). REALLY bad experience with the recruiter at my new job who REFUSED to negotiate with me on any level, and when I started the job it was nothing that had been promised to me. I made the mistake of initially posting it on LinkedIn right away, but things got really bad really quickly and decided to remove it and I blocked the recruiter and the Hiring Manager who had flat out lied to me about the role.

      I feel a twinge about this, like I’ve committed a petty crime or something, but when it comes down to it, our LinkedIn profiles belong to US, not to the companies we work for, and who we connect with is voluntary, not mandatory. I feel like there is some kind of weird social contract around LI that ultimately doesn’t benefit us.

      But that said, next time I’m going to WAIT — like a year — to add my new job to my LinkedIn resume. I think it makes sense to see if the new job will “stick” and to take a minute and think about who I really want to be connected with. My two other direct teammates (one hired a week before me, one hired a month after me) have both left the team. This all in less than six months…..you never know what kind of toxic landfill you’ll end up in.

    7. Asenath*

      The nosier people get, the more I’m convinced that they’re just being nosy for no reason having to do with making friendly personal chat (my default assumption is that they are just inquisitive, but there are other assumptions I could and have made). So I shut down any contact with them even tighter, since they didn’t get the message that I’ve moved on and the details aren’t important to former co-workers and acquaintances first time around.

    8. WellRed*

      I’m in the minority here but absent other information, I guess I don’t understand not simply answering polite (key word) inquiries about your new job. But yeah, at this point, your old coworkers are being inappropriate and weird.

      1. Mannequin*

        I’m always curious why people answer a question of “Thing X triggers a gut reaction around my personal boundaries, what do?” with “Well Thing X doesn’t impinge on MY personal boundaries, why don’t you just suck it up and do it?”

        The Questioner has already indicated their personal level of discomfort with Thing X, and are looking for methods of coping with the pressure or shaming or disapproval of others to just “give in” to the thing that makes them uncomfortable, and adding further fuel to the “this doesn’t bother me, why should it bother you? Get over it already” fire is not helpful and is not OK.

        People are allowed to have their boundaries even if they seem frivolous or ridiculous to others.

    9. NJ Worker*

      I did the same thing, and then I updated my LinkedIn after 3 months on #NewJob. There’s always industry chatter, and I was just being super-cautious? Nobody is entitled to this information. Your former colleagues are being weirdly aggressive.

    10. anonymous73*

      I’m confused about why you ignored and are still ignoring your colleagues. If the HR lady has a reputation to causing trouble when people leave, then it’s perfectly understandable to block and ignore her. But it’s perfectly normal for a colleague to inquire about where you’re headed – that’s not being nosy. You can continue to ignore everyone, but know that you’ve possibly burned bridges with everyone and won’t be able to ask anyone for references or connections if they happen to have one for a potential future position.

      1. Accidental Drama*

        Yup, you ARE definitely confused, because nowhere did I say I ignored people. I said I politely side-stepped their questions about my next role.

    11. Soup of the Day*

      I don’t think you made a big deal out of nothing at all! If you want to ignore it, you can temporarily deactivate your LI account for a while – then no one can tag you and hopefully you can quietly reactivate later without much fanfare. But honestly, you can block whoever you’d like on LinkedIn. You don’t owe anyone access to your life, even people you’re on good terms with. I wouldn’t feel bad at all for icing out someone nosy. It’s very normal to not want the world to know your new job until you’re more established there, and if you want to respond you can just say “I’d rather not talk about my new position until I’ve been there for a while longer – thanks for understanding!”

    12. Yorick*

      If you haven’t updated your LI so it still says you work there, your former colleagues are probably confused.

    13. Mannequin*

      *You* didn’t make a big deal out of nothing.

      The people who won’t drop this are the ones making a big deal out of nothing. And it’s a good sign that you are doing the right thing.

      I’d continue to deflect until they lose interest.

  7. BRR*

    Any tips for becoming a faster email writer? It usually takes me way too long to compose or reply to emails. These are often pretty simple emails and I roughly know what I’m trying to say, but I just can’t click reply and spit it out quickly.

    1. Switcheroo*

      I have this tendency too, and something that helped me was creating a word doc of templates when I noticed that I was giving the same type of reply to different people over and over. I actually only ended up copy/pasting the templates a couple times but it did sort of fix in my head a basic structure that I could just bang out. Also if you have a colleague who writes good emails take a look at them and notice what you like about their phrasing/language and adapt those strategies to your own voice. Helps as well to remember that unless it’s unclear or rude people don’t really care about email style so for everyday stuff try to let go of needing to be perfect, you’re your own sharpest critic!

      1. Corporate Minion*

        I have a friend who uses templates for EVERYTHING. She works in school admin and interfaces a lot with parents. Almost everything she needs to tell them is the same in each case and she tweaks as needed. She has a giant Word document.

        1. Zephy*

          Piggybacking on this for the Word doc system – Outlook has Signatures which are great for making form letters/templates that need minor tweaking (names/dates). Easy to use in both new correspondence and replies, literally just pick your response from the drop-down and make any necessary tweaks.

          NB: Signatures, for some unknown reason, do not sync across devices (or they didn’t, maybe Microsoft fixed this, IDK), so if you aren’t always accessing your Outlook on the same hardware, keep copies of your templates in your email somewhere so you can set up/update your signatures when you change devices.

          1. Sleepless*

            You can store them in Evernote too. I use a ton of templates for medical notes. I keep them in a glossary in our practice software, but just in case I keep them in Evernote too. Having templates gives you a mental place to start plus it can function as a checklist to make sure I mentioned everything I should. For that matter, it serve as a checklist to make sure I do the things in the first place, not just to document that I did them.

          2. Imprudence*

            One note is good for this too. I have sections for categories, and pages for each individual email.

      2. ecnaseener*

        Even better: save the templates in your outlook drafts so you don’t have to switch applications or deal with formatting weirdness. (Copy the text from the draft or duplicate the message itself – don’t send the draft template.)

      3. Mouse*

        If you’re using 365, Outlook has a Templates feature! It’s called “My Templates” and you can find it by clicking on the three dots all the way to the right of the Message tab.

    2. Overeducated*

      I tell myself I’m just writing it as a draft and I’ll send later to reduce the pressure. (Sometimes I do send it later, sometimes that gets me going quickly enough that I can just send it then.)

      1. Hlao-roo*

        This is what I often do. Write up a draft then let it sit for 10 min/30 min/1 hr. When I look at it again, sometimes I catch a type or rewrite a sentence, but mostly I ask myself “is it clear enough? is the time and effort worth the small benefit of writing a slightly better sentence?” The answers are usually yes and no (respectively) so I just hit send.

    3. Erika22*

      Any chance you’re spending too much time worrying about tone or something? Sometimes I spend ages writing an email because I’m composing it perfectly and want to make sure I start off friendly and don’t sound demanding or too short. If I catch myself doing that, I make myself delete all the fluffy stuff and hit send immediately, no procrastinating. So instead of “Hi X, I hope your week is going well. I was expecting that contract on Monday. Do you know when it will be done? Thanks!” to “Hi X, Is that contract ready? I was expecting it Monday. Thanks!” Really I just try to think of an email as a more formal chat message, and I have to remind myself the best email is the one that gets straight to the point and is actually sent in a timely manner!

    4. FashionablyEvil*

      I usually grab a piece of scratch paper and quickly jot down bullets of the main points I want to make and any context that might be helpful. (Payment has not been received; this is/is not within normal parameters, etc.) Then I type it up along with the social niceties and I’m good to go. There’s something about paper that’s more tactile/easier when I’m struggling to make a point.

    5. efrost*

      When I struggle with figuring out how compose an email I’ll sometimes start with a bullet-point list of what I’m trying to get across and then build the narrative from there. It helps me highlight things that might have been confusing at first read and keep me focused on message. It also helps keep me from straying into unnecessary detail which I am prone to doing.

    6. A Girl Named Fred*

      Is it that you struggle to write them at all, or once you’ve written it you struggle to click send? I used to do the latter a lot and made a rule for myself – once I’ve written it, if I review it three times without making any changes I have to immediately press send. That helps keep me out of “review/rewrite hell” because if I haven’t changed anything, it’s probably fine and I just need to get it out of my sight.

    7. Mynona*

      Are you trying to say too much? So many e-mails are just too long. When you are tempted to add a detail, consider if it is necessary.

      Also, multitasking mid E-mail can contribute to this. I pause, decide what I need to say, and don’t do anything else until it’s done. Good luck.

    8. Squidhead*

      I find myself trying to be too chatty in emails and/or trying to include too much supporting info. It works fine in person, but on a screen is is just sooooo many words, and it makes my sentence structures too convoluted. Like, if I need to read the sentence aloud to myself to see if it makes sense, then it is a bad sentence!

      It helped me to realize that most of the messages I *need* to send are either “here is a question/problem/document. Here is the part that is relevant to you. Please let me know your input by ___.” OR “thank you for the question/problem/document. Here is my input (citation included here if necessary). Thank you/please let me know if I can assist further.” Stripping the chaff away to make this really clear helps, and does get easier with practice! Templates can definitely help as well, but you need to know what type of message you are sending to pick the right template.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      I think the clue is where you say, “I roughly know what I am trying to say”.

      What does it take to fully know what you will say?
      Sometimes I have to call someone else. Sometimes I have to look things up. Other times I have to get the boss’ permission.

      Read the email.
      Collect the info to answer the email.
      THEN begin composing.
      You do not have to answer the minute one flies into your mailbox.

      Type your answer then re-read the email. Did you answer the question that was actually asked? It is okay to say, “If you need more info please let me know.” This is useful for times where you are not certain where to stop your answer.

  8. Apparently Underpaid*

    I just find out a coworker hired two months ago in a job very similar to what I’m doing and at the same level makes $20k more than I do. I’m going to approach my supervisor about an equity adjustment (and I think she’ll be open to it. She hired the new guy, but I was hired and promoted under someone different who was known for low balling pay). My question is, what exactly is the script to open and ask? I can do the justification, but I’ve never even negotiated so I’m just not sure what to say specifically when I open the conversation and for the ask itself. Thanks!

    1. Mid*

      I’m a rather blunt person, so I’d go with “Hey [Supervisor], when is a good time to meet and discuss my compensation?” Or “At our next one to one, can we make time to discuss an equity adjustment in my pay?”

    2. TennisFan*

      To open, you could say that’s it your belief that based off research and conversations with peers in similar roles at other firms, that your salary level is considerably behind the industry and market standard for your position.

      For the ask, I’ve had certain supervisor relationships where I could be frank and share that I know the salary of the new hire. I’d bring it up and see how they respond. If you can’t mention it because you don’t know how your supervisor would react to you knowing that information, I’d still try stating the amount or range that you feel is appropriate. The alternative is not to say a number in your initial ask and see what they come back with, but because you have this inside info, I think you’re on firm ground to just ask for what you upfront. Otherwise the supervisor might be inclined to provide, say, a $10k raise, which for most jobs would still be substantial and “generous”, and not feel any pressure to go higher.

      Just some food for thought—good luck!

    3. StellaBella*

      look thru the Salary section here (on the right column to find scripts. Also what Mid says is good to start with too.

    4. Zona the Great*

      Agree with above commenter: “Oh, I just found out that this role is now paying much more than what I am making. Can we set up a time to discuss bringing my pay up to the current level? Should I contact HR and set something up with them?”

  9. ThatGirl*

    This is a very low-stakes question but I’m curious about opinions or What People Do.

    I’ve been at my current company just shy of a year, and they just reorganized my department (marketing). I have a new manager and my responsibilities are shifting – they’re splitting our efforts into Channel vs Brand/Media, whereas before everyone did everything. My title, however, has not changed. So the question is: should this be a new position on LinkedIn/my resume? Or should I note a shift in responsibilities within the position, or at all?

    2. BRR*

      I wouldn’t list it as a new position or note a change. I would just list the accomplishments on your resume like you would had your department not split.

      1. Momma Bear*

        Same. Your title hasn’t changed, but you could edit the specifics to reflect your new reality. You still do have the other skills, even if they are not your day to day job so much.

        1. ThatGirl*

          I do. It’s more just that the focus of my job is changing from what I was hired to do. I can see both sides of the argument (new team, new more specific focus, shift in strategy, but same department, same title) which is why I was curious what others thought.

    3. Mid*

      I think the shift could be addressed in a cover letter, while letting your resume just focus on highlights within the role. “during my time as a [Teapot Marketer], my duties shifted from a broader marketing role to a more specialized role in brand management for [Tea Corp.] During this time, I lead our most successful branding campaign to date, increasing customer engagement by 11%” kind of thing.

      1. ThatGirl*

        This could definitely work for a cover letter although with any luck I won’t be moving on any time soon! I just like to keep my resume updated just in case, and I like LinkedIn to reflect my accomplishments.

    4. Purple Cat*

      I would say it depends on how much of a shift there really is in your responsibilities. For example, years ago I kept the same title, but shifted to focus on different pieces of the business. Think moving from Teapot Painter to Coffee Mug Painter. I list those as different positions in my resume because the focus on each was different and Coffee Mugs was a bigger piece of the business so there was an increase in responsibility, even without a change in title and I wanted to show “growth”.

      So depending on how different the work/responsibilities are, you could split the role into 2 sections.

      1. ThatGirl*

        As hired, the job was about 65-70% channel/product related, and 30% social media posts and extraneous public marketing materials. Going forward, it will ALL be focused on social and brand media. So it’s specialization and expansion of that part of it, not something totally different.

    5. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Maybe this is specific to your field. For me, I don’t think this rises to the level of needing to be noted on a resume, since a resume should focus on what you accomplished, not your responsibilities.

      And, in my opinion, that’s especially true because it’s not a shift from two very different roles (e.g., “Otter Cuddler” to “Rodeo Clown”), it’s that your focus has shifted (70:30 channel:social to 100 social).

      1. ThatGirl*

        I appreciate it! I honestly wasn’t quite sure but the responses seem to lean toward not needing to note it. My KPIs/goals will change, but that could have been true anyway.

  10. Free Meerkats*

    For those who have gone into freelancing/consulting, do you have any book/website/webinar recommendations for someone looking into it? I’m seriously considering it when I retire, and figure it’s probably better to get things rolling while I am still employed.

    Do I go sole-proprietor, LLC, something else? E&O Insurance? Taxes?

    That sort of thing.

    1. Lunch Eating Mid Manager*

      Nolo Press has a couple of good books about this subject. (Probably you want to be a sole-proprietor unless you want to have staff.)

    2. Kay*

      My not financial advice that I personally took was a pass through LLC, but instead of a deciding based on reading I would have a chat with your accountant. There is plenty of info out there (and unless you already are very familiar with the subject matter I wouldn’t suggest basing your decision on that) but your accountant will be able to look at your personal situation as well as what you want to accomplish and recommend what is best for you based on that info – in addition to what is best should your situation change.

    3. RagingADHD*

      The only place you should get advice about whether you need a business entity is a CPA who practices in your city.

      In some jurisdictions, establishing an entity costs a few hundred dollars and is minimal hassle. In others, it means thousands in fees and significant annual maintenance, to the point that it could really set back your timeline for turning a profit. In some areas, you need a business license to di anything. In others, it depends on the nature of your work. And so forth.

      What type of consulting aee you looking to do? The best advice is industry specific.

  11. Jessie J*

    I’d really enjoy seeing a section like:
    “this is why I left this company”. Sort of like an anonymous letter to their ex-management.

    4. Frankie Bergstein*

      Agree! I think seeing what themes appeared over and over would be fascinating. I’m so curious if my reasons for moving on would be similar to others.

  12. meagain*

    Any good ideas for a $20-25 white elephant gift? It can be funny or nice. Everyone I work with is fun and has a good sense of humor. Also no one is very uptight. If they don’t like the gift, there won’t be any noteworthy drama. I have just been so busy and neglecting everything, and am going to be running around this weekend to come up with something. My usual go to’s – yeti cup, $20 bill, bottle of booze (which is fine amongst our people) – have all been done. Ideally I want to bring something that people want to steal.

    1. meagain*

      This may be more for the weekend thread – if so, apologies. I was thinking work since it’s for our workplace holiday party.

    2. Not a Name Today*

      I’ve gone to Five Below (or another dollar store) and purchased a bunch of fun toys. Wind up robots, light up toys, silly magnets, getting a bag of fun stuff is pretty cool.

      1. Cold Fish*

        This is where my mind went too. Fun little “kids games” always seem to go over well at my work. Especially things like the paddle with ball attached or marshmallow shooters.

          1. meagain*

            Haha, that’s a good one!! (And at my work will turn inappropriate fast, but in a good fun way lol)

    3. The New Normal*

      Pet store gift card! That was the hot item at our last White Elephant Gift Exchange. The other hot item were Lottery Scratchers – the chance that you could win more than the gift limit was exciting.

      1. Slipping The Leash*

        If you have time before the party day, go on amazon and look for color-changing mugs. $16 for the original cast star trek one that has picture of crew on the bridge when empty, but “transports” them down to a planet when full of hot liquid. totally ridiculous.

          1. Chashka*

            How have I not known about Blue Q until now? Sadly, too late for Christmas gifts this year (already bought), but not too late for birthday stuff for next year.

      2. meagain*

        Actually last year I ended up with a whole dog gift package when I don’t have a dog and no one stole it! I ended up giving it away which was fine, but it just was unlucky that it landed with me when a lot of people I work with do have pets!

    5. OtterB*

      My husband just bought a small multitool to give in his office’s white elephant gifting, but most of his colleagues are engineers or technicians of some kind.

    6. Annony*

      My coworkers enjoy board games so I often get a small game (Love Letter, Coup, Boss Monster). Local artisan goods work too. We have a popular candy store nearby that I sometimes buy from for gift exchanges. Artisan honey, tea, fudge or preserves are good too. One year I bought some tiny glass animals from a craft fair that were very popular.

    7. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      our work gift exchange is themed to either “keeping warm” or “my favorite things”, so I put in it a big blanket scarf in neutral colors, a box of my favorite cookies, and a tin of fancy cocoa. Came to a little under $25 altogether.

      1. meagain*

        Thank you! I actually did do a hot cocoa set last year with a good brand of cocoa, fancy marshmallows, toppers, chocolate spoon stirrer etc!

    8. Lucky*

      Are you near a CostPlus World Market or similar store? Bottle of wine or booze plus funny bar accessory can be a good choice. Or, basket of international snacks plus funny kitchen accessory, to appeal to non-drinkers as well.

      PS I do think this is appropriate to today’s thread since there are so many potential pitfalls for a white elephant. Nothing sexy, nothing controversial. I’m thinking accessories like: rubber pickle wine bottle stopper, llama-shaped snack bowl, cat-shaped chip clip that meows when opened. That’s why I like World Market, there’s something silly for everyone, plus all-dressed potato chips and every kind of Haribo gummy.

    9. Granger Chase*

      I think the base box of Cards Against Humanity might fall into that price range! There are also some similar games on the market now that are a bit more, uh tame for work lol

      1. Frideag Dachaigh*

        The “We Didn’t Playtest This” card game series is a favorite in my household/friend circle that is a bit less well known (so less likely for people to have it). For $20-25 you could potentially get a couple different card based games- Coup, Exploding Kittens, Sushi Go, Jaipur, Monopoly Deal, Scrabble Slam, etc. A lot of these are $5-$15 so you could do a small collection!

    10. Ali + Nino*

      I once found a mini waffle iron for around $10 at Target – almost went over my office’s limit for White Elephant. IIRC it was stolen a couple of times!

      1. evens*

        Those are cute! There are a bunch of mini appliances now, including a dog bone treat maker, popcorn popper, pie maker, and ice cream maker. Those would be fun!

      2. Dark Macadamia*

        I LOVE my mini waffle iron. It’s so tempting to get some of the seasonal shape versions and the donut maker but I don’t have space for that many novelty appliances!

    11. Chestnut Mare*

      I’ve gotten gift boxes/tins of Lindt truffles for these events and my workplace, and have seen usually well-behaved people get pretty rowdy.

    12. CG*

      I have lots of ideas for this! A can cooler bag or backpack, a bag with some interesting toiletries (Lush bath bombs and Poopourri have been really popular at past exchanges in my office), a nice plant and pot, fancy pens, fun chocolates or other snack, hot chocolate and a mug, cool coasters, a pack of nice wool socks (Costco has good ones), a bestseller book or two, coffee from the local fancy roaster.

    13. Can't Sit Still*

      I once bought a stocking and filled it with various small toys. It was a huge hit and people kept trying to steal it even after it was off limits.

    14. bee*

      Those super mini fridges (the ones that hold like 6 cans of soda) often go on sale for ~$25, and are pretty universal. In general, mini things tend to be a hit, actually—I’ve done mini foosball before, and a mini inflatable tube guy, like the ones outside of car dealerships.

    16. GoryDetails*

      There’s a series of literary-themed sticky-notes; Jane Austen characters, Romeo and Juliet, etc. I see them at Barnes and Noble pretty often, and they’re just the sort of thing that could be fun in an office white-elephant. [The ones I like are from the “Girl of All Work” site, where there are loads of other styles as well – pets, food, travel, etc.] Pairing a set of these with a book or interestingly-flavored tea or coffee might be fun.

    17. CupcakeCounter*

      I love someone else idea of lottery tickets but also…
      1. Mini charcuterie board
      2. Nice box of good chocolates
      3. Funny workplace or holiday mug
      4. Hot cocoa or coffee gift bag

      1. Picard*

        I just got our book club secret santa gift. Barnes and nobles had a great charcuterie set with book, board and utensils for around $35. If you have coupon or membership, it might fall into your budget.

    18. Dark Macadamia*

      Seconding World Market or games (I recommend Anomia). Some decorative giraffes were popular at my work gift exchange one year, and World Market is just a really fun place to browse for decor, food, or novelty items.

    20. Generic Name*

      Puzzles seem to be a thing right now. I’m sure this goes without saying, but make sure the image is work-appropriate (no racial tropes or busty lady-type imagery).

      1. meagain*

        You actually gave me an amazing idea, but I don’t think I’ll be able to get it delivered in time. :( Puzzles are definitely a thing right now. I just thought of an image that would be really cool, almost a collector’s item for our company and they have it on fine art America where you can purchase it as a puzzle for around $30. It would be totally worth it, but unfortunately I did not think of this in time. Thank you though – it gives me an idea for next year!

        One year I bought my partner a pizza puzzle in the round shape of a pizza for us to do together and that made a good gift as well since pizza was a fun thing we made together or took very seriously in determining our toppings!

    21. Gracely*

      A soft sherpa-style throw blanket? You can usually find nice ones for $20ish at TJ Maxx. Those are always super popular at my family’s Christmas swap.

      Other ideas: tiger/animal paw slippers, funny coloring book+nice set of colored pencils, Snoop Dogg’s cookbook, dinosaur taco holders, mini waffle maker + waffle mix

      1. Joielle*

        I gave one of those at a family white elephant a few years back and it was very popular! My sister in law still uses it, lol

    23. Nope, not today*

      Last time we did this at work I went to the hardware store and bought an air plant – one in a pretty wooden dish type thing that could go on a desk. I liked it, and assumed it would pass muster at least (low maintenance office decor, avoiding all the pitfalls of coffee/tea/gift cards/things not *everyone* would appreciate). It was a hit – the most prized gift that got stolen the max number of times. It was a bit unexpected which might be why it was so popular?

    24. Anonymous Luddite*

      Archie McPhee’s – home of all the random stuff you never knew you needed until the exact moment you saw it.

      1. Roy G. Biv*

        I still use my robot pencil sharpener from a $20 Archie McPhee grab bag. It was full of treasures!

    25. Fellow Traveller*

      Someone gave a nerf blaster to the last gift exchange i did and it was highly coveted. Though this definitely falls under “know your workplace!”

    26. Aphrodite*

      RFID Blocking Sleeves: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LDBA28O/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_2?smid=A3CME7OTDHSEKV&th=1

      Rechargeable Flashlight: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0039UE9EG/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_5?smid=&th=1

      For those with cats who love toilet paper and paper towels: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07M6MCF18?ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details&th=1

      Great little bedside clock: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06XR712K7?ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details&th=1

      Shoehorn: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07C412KYF?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details

      Paper towels: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08RT1NF23?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details

      Great soft toothbrushes: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E841GIE/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1

      Keychain flashlight: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07ZPQMLSV/ref=twister_B0831JXYHC?_encoding=UTF8&th=1

      For mine, also a steal-able Secret Santa, I have put together a $20 box containing four items from Trader Joe’s: a bottle of Vinho Verde, a delicious effervescent wine from Portugal, a box of assorted organic crackers, and two cheeses.

    27. Random Biter*

      The most stolen offering at OldJob’s Christmas get togethers was always scratch off lottery tickets. Always. Even if the person who ended up with them won nothing, I guess it was the thrill of the unknown and possible walking away with the means of walking away for good. Sadly, that never happened the entire 25 years I was there, but one never knows and hope springs eternal.

    28. Anony*

      I vote buy local! I would totally go for a small basket of local foods or a giftcard to a local coffee shop – with the benefit that it helps small businesses in a difficult year.

    30. Robin Ellacott*

      I got one of those umbrellas that folds with the wet part inside for one of our exchanges. It was very popular and much-stolen. (mind you, I live in famously-rainy Vancouver). It was bought from Evil Company Named After a River.

      Those Pinch kits have also been popular – they are a small zippered pouch filled with various things one might need in a pinch, some general (bandaid, sewing kit, lip balm) and some specialized for various occasions.

    31. Haha Lala*

      Lottery scratchers are always fun.
      And my favorite play is to give a small gift, but wrap it in an exceptionally large box, sometimes with extra weights (I saw one this year with landscape bricks!). That always adds a few laughs, even if the gift is unremarkable.

    32. Belle of the Midwest*

      A battery operated wine bottle opener. I first saw one at a convention and had to have one of my own. You can get one on Amazon. the one I have will open 80 bottles before needing to be charged and it charges via USB port.

    33. Xenia*

      Some good white elephant gifts I’ve seen:
      * a desktop mousepad shaped like a cat’s paw
      * a microfiber fleece blanket
      * a small lego set
      * 4 pounds of M&Ms (in two 2lb bags)

    34. Double A*

      I feel like you can’t go wrong with socks. Could be (work appropriate) novelty socks or some nice wool socks. I love it whenever I get a nice pair of socks for the holidays.

    35. AcademiaNut*

      Basic Bar set (cocktail shaker, shot measure, citrus juicer).
      A small lego kit, suitable for displaying on a desk.
      A set of beer glasses
      A nice, sturdy 1/2 L beer stein (I have one of these, and it’s awesome as a beer glass and water glass. It’s almost impossible to tip over).
      Nostalgic kids’ candy set (Nerds, pop-rocks, gobstoppers, pixie sticks, etc)
      A box of old fashioned Christmas candy (the pillows, and cylinders and ribbons)

    36. mreasy*

      I had the idea of two of those wine glasses for picnics that are insulated and have tops too late for my yankee swap this year so I’m giving the idea to you!

    37. SG*

      You could go to Cost Plus which has a great international candy/chocolate/food choices (or even Trader Joe’s!) and put together a box of different/interesting candy and snacks.

    38. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      Booze of varying types was always a hit at my former company. I once wrapped a Heineken mini keg and it kept getting stolen. I stole a tasting pack of scotch whiskey (my husband and I like whiskey, but aren’t always sure what we like). Win-Win.
      Outside of booze, Wawa or Dunkin gift cards are popular in the Philly area along with Eagles or Phillies things.

      1. meagain*

        Booze is a hit at my company too! I’m in South Carolina and one year bought this Carolina Cream rum from a local distillery. It’s a bourbon whiskey, rum, and cream, and better than Bailey’s! It’s absolutely delicious and supported local as well! Even if people aren’t big drinkers, that’s one you can just put in your coffee or hot chocolate. If you can find it at your liquor store, it’s always a hit as a gift – liquid dessert! I have just already done that one! Skrewball Peanut Butter Whisky is also really good, especially for people who aren’t whisky drinkers.

    39. meagain*

      Thank you everyone! So many great ideas. We should recap after the holidays about what the biggest hit item was at all of our exchanges!

  13. Azumi*

    Small victory and long battles:

    I work in a small office adjacent to a much larger office and business. We are separate, but related- we use much of their services like HR, IT, and reception. However, because our space is “private” and nicer in certain ways than other spaces, this leads to people trying to come in and use our office for personal calls, use our bathroom (despite several other, much larger bathrooms on the floor, etc.) I’m pretty much the solo employee on my team using the office space these days.

    I’ve tried to put my foot down on the big things without alienating others in the office, but there are some outrageous incidents. Namely, someone tried to come in while we had an important guest, demanded to use the bathroom, and when refused, said they were going to change into their gym clothes in our conference room (?!?) all within earshot. Thankfully, my boss did speak directly to this person.

    I’ve had people try to correct me about turning lights on and off in different rooms. Someone left an important medication in our fridge, and freaked out when they thought it was missing. I found it, but this should never have happened and we don’t have any accountability. Lately, more and more people have been walking through. I’m tempted to ask them to stop, but I also value this other office’s help and I don’t want to cause trouble down the line if I need a favor. Does anyone have any advice on navigating this type of dynamic?

    (I can’t say I miss WFH full time, but I do not love office dynamics…hybrid forever).

    1. RabbitRabbit*

      Any chance you can have the main door to your space locked, either by key or badge reader? You could pick some kind of privacy/confidentiality/legal/whatever requirement to limiting access to your area. If not, do you have a receptionist who could firmly enforce entry requirements under that same reasoning? (‘Who are you here to meet with / No sorry, this space is solely for employees of Small Business and due to [blah blah] regulations/requirements we have to restrict access.’)

      1. RabbitRabbit*

        Sorry, just saw that you are solo – which could make locking it easier. Official looking signage about the ‘restriction’ could help as well.

        1. Azumi*

          So it actually is keycard locked, but reception…is sometimes the problem (conference room changer? Reception.) The keycards work, thankfully, otherwise I can only imagine the deluge!

          These are issues with building staff that have general access for everything. I think I’m going to have to talk to HR about the medicine/new people coming through, to try to stop it going forward.

          1. Momma Bear*

            If there are repeat offenders, can their access be further restricted? Does everyone really need unfettered access to that space or do they really need it only certain hours?

          2. Observer*

            Talk to HR and point out that Reception is being careless in how they are letting people in, so maybe THEY should not have access to the door to your space. There are two separate reasons. One is your safety.

            The other is risk to your organization. The person who threatened to change in your conference room is clearly not someone that you want in your space.

            The medication is even worse. The last thing your organization needs is to have people’s medications in your fridge with absolutely no accountability or any way to keep track of stuff. Could you imagine if that medication had actually gone missing?

            1. Azumi*

              oh, tell me about it. HR was actually present in the medication search and told them that there was no accountability.

              Now that it’s over, I will talk to HR and try to emphasize how we all want to avoid this from happening again….

              The receptionist who tried to strip down in our conference room did get spoken to. It was a true horror story- when it happens, I was thinking that it was straight out of AAM! But it is a bit of a old-school office and people stay there for many years. So I’m treading lightly.

      1. Azumi*

        Ah, just replied above. There is locked keycard access, it’s just that people who have it for other reasons are abusing it.

        1. Generic Name*

          So it sounds like it’s just a few problem people. Have your boss speak to them directly, and if they still won’t stop, loop the offender’s bosses in.

        2. HolidayAmoeba*

          Seems like you need to make it abundantly clear that your office is not just an extension of the other company’s office, but a completely separate business. You may also need to speak to whoever is above the people in reception letting people into your office for minor stuff like wanting a place to change.

    3. Intermittent Introvert*

      Could you also consider some strategic furniture and decor arrangements? Move desks, chairs, big plants, etc. to discourage or redirect movement. Obviously keep safety in mind. It may not influence the more aggressive trespassers, but might curtail some others.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I think upper management needs to step in and spell out the rules for the use of the area. This could be a broadcast email or a general meeting involving everyone.

      This one is tricky. The times I have seen it done, it did not go over well. The group felt divided- those who were allowed regular access and those who were only allowed limited access for specific reasons.

  14. South of the Border*

    How do you deal with coworkers who want to get a reaction out of you? I work with “Fergus” and he seems to always want to either get a rise out of me and/or make me angry about something. He used to talk to me and socialize, but now he’s into the new manager, “Amy.” Whenever I see him, he mentions her name. “Oh, Amy was just back here.” He always hangs out by her desk, etc. Fergus is the office player and has a bit of a reputation, though boss loves him and ignore it. (Fergus is also married, but that doesn’t seem to stop him.) I asked him if he wanted to go to the meeting and he said no, but then later on I heard him ask Amy if she was going and he went with her.

    Fergus and I work together so we have to socialize at least in order to complete our work. I’m trying to ignore his antics, but he’s done this with other women and it’s just annoying. He also badmouths me- I caught him talking about me to a part-time worker and he acted as if I misheard him.

    I asked him for help moving items for a meeting and he made excuses/didn’t go, but he helped Amy set up for a meeting. Wtf?

    Any advice?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      You don’t need to socialize with Fergus, you need to work with Fergus. Ask him for what you need on a work level, and disregard all the petty nonsense. Fergus wanting to go to the meeting with Amy instead of you or hanging out by Amy’s desk instead of yours or helping Amy with meeting setup and not you is silly high-school stuff. Rise above him.

      1. Momma Bear*

        I agree. I would look at it as strictly business with Fergus. If he doesn’t want to go to the meeting with you, then whatever. What I would look for, however, is Amy giving Fergus preferential treatment that affects others/you. Sounds like he’s getting some Boss Face Time, which could be a career strategy for him.

        It might sting that you thought you had a friendlier relationship than you do, but try to just ignore his mentions of Amy unless they are relevant to the job.

        1. South of the Border*

          The thing is that he *can* be very social, when he *wants* to be. The environment is very laid back/relaxed so if I’m formal/uptight, it’s obvious. It’s the mind games that are driving me crazy because one second he acts one way, the next, he’s someone totally different. If I didn’t have to work with him, I would just ignore it, but unfortunately I have to.

    2. Colette*

      Assume Fergus will not help you if there’s another option, and behave accordingly. Don’t ask him for favours; treat him civilly, but don’t try to be friendly.

      I’m also a little concerned that you’re assuming Fergus is hitting on Amy, when he could very well be sucking up because she’s in a position of power.

      1. South of the Border*

        “he could very well be sucking up because she’s in a position of power”- This is true. He does do this.

        Though he did ask Amy if she wanted a hug and has given hugs to others. He’s… very touchy-feely. There were rumors about him and another young female worker meeting for lunch. Not sure if anything happened- none of my business, but people talk and it’s a slippery slope sometimes.

        1. Gander*

          Stop speculating, stop thinking about what this all means, and focus on what you know and what you need to do. It sounds from your comments like you are getting sucked into the high school mentality of these people and that’s not a good look. Your entire second paragraph here is just so irrelevant and gossipy – it’s worrying.

          Rise above this nonsense. You’re better than this (I hope!). Don’t let this stuff take up space, it’s toxic and it will negatively impact your work and your reputation.

          1. South of the Border*

            This is the workplace though- gossipy, rumors, etc. I don’t even know half of it because I’m quiet, keep my head down, and work! There’s more going on than I know or care to know, but it’s difficult to not get sucked into the drama when everyone else is in it.

    3. Hlao-roo*

      Agree with Red Reader. Fergus wants to get a rise out of you, and the way to deal with that is to not give him what he wants. Often easier said than done, I know. Maybe use the anthropologist approach? Pretend he’s a different species you are observing, and narrate in your head like a wildlife documentary. “The Fergus pokes his head out of his cubicle. What will the office environment bring today? After a quick check for prowling managers, the Fergus makes his way to Amy’s desk…”

      Stay reasonable polite with him in order to get your work done. If you can/want to chit-chat with him on light subjects (the weather/sports, maybe TV shows/pets), go for it. But nothing wrong with keeping things strictly work with him.

    4. Asenath*

      Forget about Amy, deal with Fergus when you need him to do something related to work, and if he refuses or ignores requests that might be semi-optional – like moving stuff when he’s not employed to do so- work around him like you would any somewhat incompetent and unprofessional co-worker.

      But if he badmouths you, correct him then and there, and if it happens more than once, start keeping records. If he badmouths anyone else in your hearing, say something contradictory (and very brief), like “I always found Sue good to work with” and move on.

      This is a combination of working around the useless types you are always going to encounter, and decreasing the more malicious habits of the backbiter/gossip.

    5. Jean*

      Gray rock. Google it if you’re not familiar. Only speak to this person in a neutral tone and only about work related matters, period.

    6. RagingADHD*

      The thing I find troubling is that you don’t seem to be bothered about Fergus flirting with the boss or hitting on other female co-workers, so much as you are bothered that he *stopped* paying so much attention to you.

      A married, known creeper stopped creeping on you. This is good news. My advice is to take the win, and reset your expectations of what professional, collegial behavior is supposed to be.

      1. Fran Fine*

        All of this. OP, you sound almost jealous of Amy, which is weird because Fergus is completely inappropriate in the workplace. He definitely needs to stop talking crap about you – that you can address when it happens. However, everything else? Let it go.

        1. South of the Border*

          They all love Fergus though and act like he’s the best. That’s what’s driving me crazy. I feel like I see a different version of him than they do. Or he acts differently with them than with me?

          Amy seems to handle things better than I do and seems to handle him with ease or in a way that I wish I could.

      2. South of the Border*

        I know what you’re saying, but it’s difficult to see things clearly when you’re in a messed up situation and no one acts like it’s messed up. I’m working on getting out and will hopefully very soon.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Fergus is an a$$ kisser and a gaslighter.
      You don’t have to socialize to do your work. Socializing is (to me) talking about things other than work. You can limit your conversations to the work itself.

      Because it is kind of in keeping with my personality, in your setting up example, I would just turn and ask Amy for help or ask Amy to assign someone to help you. At some point Amy will figure out that Fergus should be helping you. Here the strategy is focus on getting the job done and what do you need to get your job done. This allows you to think of Fergus as a distant problem.

      In the meeting example, I’d stop asking him to go to meetings. I’d just go on my own. Here the focus is preventing opportunities for him to annoy me some more.

      In the end, I have worked with a few of these people and I have found they made me stronger and sharper. I did more work independently and I grew very resourceful. Because I was handling various things, I was the person in-the-know. People would ask me about this or that as they could not ask my Ferguses because the Ferguses had no clue.

      Focus on being your best professional self and let Fergus play his games as he wishes.

  15. Goose*

    I start a new job on Monday! I’m late to the party with remote job resources, but what has been the most helpful for everyone? I have a desk, and I expect to have a small budget for things to make WFH easier. I already plan to get a second monitor, but what else?

    1. ThatGirl*

      The company may cover some of that or reimburse you for it — I didn’t end up using it, but my company offered to send me a full-size keyboard, second monitor and mouse to use at home and reimburse me up to $100 for home office supplies. So maybe ask your manager or HR about that on Monday.

      1. Xenia*

        My office had a similar policy—you can request the electronics and get a $200 rebate on WFH furniture

      1. Nope, not today*

        THIS. I made it two days on a wooden kitchen chair and could barely move…. I spent more on my chair than I did for a ne w computer or new monitors. Absolutely worth it!

        Also, I bought monitor stands for my monitors – having them at a decent height also helps with posture and ergonomics!!! I got some off amazon, but they have spot that acts as a phone holder, and I can stash notes and supplies under them, so the desk space under the monitors is not completely lost forever.

    3. ENFP in Texas*

      A good chair that fits you and your desk well. Pay attention to the ergonomics – the angle of your hips, back, knees, elbows, shoulders. Get something with multiple adjustment options if at all possible.

      A convenient file cabinet or shelves for supplies. Your desk real estate gets taken up really quickly with stuff you’re working on – I never realized how much stuff I stored on my desk at the office until I moved to work from home and had half the space and no cabinets!

    4. WorkNowPaintLater*

      Either a small all-in-one printer (if you need to print/scan) or a small desktop scanner – I always had something I need to scan to someone. Update your wifi router if you haven’t recently. And a good office chair.

    5. Euphony*

      I’d also recommend a good pair of noise cancelling headphones with microphone. Gives you more privacy on calls if there are other people around your workspace, but also cuts out any external noise. Even if you live alone, your neighbours could suddenly start major building work, there could be roadworks right outside your house etc.

    6. ecnaseener*

      If you have cold hands / bad circulation, and if you can’t keep your home at 73F in the winter like most offices do, fingerless heated gloves are great! I have some that plug into a USB port to heat up.

      1. Quiet Liberal*

        I have to second this! I love WFH, but I get chilly, too. I use fingerless gloves, which do keep my hands warm. I also bought a little oil filled electric radiator-type heater for under my desk. It works great because it’s quiet and keeps the envelope around me cozy without my having to jack up the whole house’s heat. Haven’t seen much of a difference in my electric bill, either.

    7. hamsterpants*

      I sprang for the super-delux wifi speeds and I have never looked back. I can deal with a lot of crap when I’m WFH but flaky internet is just infuriating. The extra $30/mo I’m paying for the fastest internet offered by my ISP is the best-spent money in my budget.

    8. CS*

      I need to make a lot of video calls for my job, so I need stable internet. I got these thingamajigs that connect my computer to the router through the electrical wiring of the house. Powerline adapters? They may have other names. Much more stable than using wifi in the house, I’ve been very happy with the solution.

  16. SurlyGirl*

    Any tips on navigating a relationship with a previous boss who is recruiting you for a new position? An ex-boss of mine (whom I loved working for) recruited me for a position at her current company, where she would be my grandboss. I’m definitely interested (and have continued to be interested as I’ve gone through the interview process), but I’m not 100% sold yet. The process was fast, and I’m meeting with the CEO this afternoon for (presumably) the final step of the process.

    I know she wants me for the job since she’s been giving me some non-public information. I just don’t want her to feel like she put all of her eggs in my basket and then I screwed her over if I don’t take the (currently hypothetical) offer.

    Am I just overthinking this? Should I have kept her in the loop about my thoughts as I went through the process?

    1. Zephy*

      Nah, you gotta look out for your own interests. As long as you’re operating in good faith, what your ex-boss chooses to do with the resources she has available to woo you is her business.

    2. Purple Cat*

      Just because you agree to an interview and to move forward in a process, doesn’t commit you to taking the job.
      My boss just left, and was supposed to work with Former Coworker A. When he told Former Coworker B he was resigning, B mentioned that he had an opening on his team and Boss went to B instead. “A” totally understand that boss had to do what was best for him and it wasn’t personal or anything.

      I would say that you should talk to your ex-boss about your concerns and let her know if you’re going to decline before officially declining. I think she should hear that directly from you and not from her HR person. If they’re not pursuing other candidates at the same time, that is on them and not on you.

    3. BRR*

      You’re over thinking it. Unless the conversation has been “I want you for this role” and you said “great, i will start monday” you’re not screwing her over. If you don’t want the role it’s perfectly fine to say you appreciate her thinking of you for the position but it’s not the right move for you at this time.

    4. Jaybee*

      Interviews aren’t just for the company to evaluate you, they’re also for you to evaluate the company.

      If she gets upset that you went through the interview process and you determined it wasn’t a good fit, that’s an issue with her, not anything you did. After all, if you went through the process and didn’t get hired, would you be angry with her for it? I assume not.

    5. Lady Danbury*

      As long as you’re acting professionally throughout the process, you’re completely fine. The only time I felt like a referral screwed me over was when she was a complete no show for a schedule interview and never followed up. Turns out she had gotten another offer that she liked better and completely ghosted my company. I would have been fine if she had reached out to cancel the interview but just not showing up is completely unprofessional and I felt like it reflected badly on me.

  17. Pool Lounger*

    Does anyone have insight into companies doing “cognitive tests” as part of the hiring process? These are very general online tests that don’t seem to relate to the actual functions of the job. I applied for an assistant librarian position at a community college and had to do a cognitive test that was entirely math and spatial reasoning. My friend applied for a mid-level project management role and had to do a test that was word problems, math, spacial reasoning, and a few other things. We’ve both had multiple jobs and have been in the workforce for decades and have never experienced this before. If you’re applying for a position that’s not entry level and you submit resume and cover letter what exactly is a cognitive test like this telling you as a hiring manager or hr?

    2. Hermione Danger*

      I worked for a company that used these because they said the only wanted to hire the best problem-solvers. They would not even interview anybody who scored below the 92nd percentile, no matter what the position. The great part about it was that our office was full of really smart people who did their jobs really well. The downside was that our office was not particularly diverse because those tests tended to weed out anybody who hadn’t had the advantage of a top tier education.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I bet it weeded out people with certain learning disabilities, too. Just, ugh. (Said as someone who is great at taking tests & find this oh so problematic.)

        1. Badger*

          Yeah this screams disability discrimination to me, but also racism, from what is known about these tests.

    3. Twenty Points for the Copier*

      We used to give these to applicants based on a strong recommendation from a mentor who’s in the same industry. Though this is for an entry-level job that requires a high level of being able to learn new things, handle details, and work quickly. After a few hires (some where we used the tests, some where we didn’t), we’ve stopped using the pure cognitive reasoning test and go with a couple of assessments that are based on actual types of work done in the role.

      I’ve also come to realize that if you feel like you need someone in the 95th percentile of reasoning and quickness to do a support job, you probably actually had someone doing 2-3 jobs and need to hire accordingly.

    4. Zephy*

      When I applied for my current position I had to do a weird test that was like 30% job-specific knowledge, 30% simple math/quantitative reasoning (“here’s a picture of a clock showing a time, where will the hands be after X amount of time” was one of the weirder ones I still remember), and 40% “do you think it’s OK to show up drunk and steal from your employer” type “behavioral” questions. It’s weird for sure.

      1. Zephy*

        edit to add: there is absolutely no situation in this job that demands that i am able to read an analog clock. I can do that thing, but especially in this increasingly-digital world, being able to do that feels like an antiquated skill in the same category as being able to load a film canister to develop photographs (which I can also do, but I have literally never had the need/opportunity to flex that since taking a photo class in high school).

    5. J.B.*

      I had to do a test like that that was really hard for a tech company hiring from colleges. The scuttlebutt from those who knew about the hiring process there was just to see if you persisted to finish.

      My one experience with library hiring was also weird.

      1. Pool Lounger*

        All my other library hiring experiences have been very normal and easy—application, phone screen maybe, interview with a few people, done. The cognitive test was a super weird addition and it made me doubt the company’s ability to properly judge candidates.

      2. Charlotte Lucas*

        Was it in the Midwest, because I might know which one. (Also locally (in)famous for preferring to hire straight out of college, because people paying off student loans are more OK with no work-life balance for high pay – even though most burn out & leave before their 5-year anniversary when the better benefits kick in.)

    6. Elizabeth West*

      I hate it.

      These exams are coming from companies that exist solely to market the tests to employers as some kind of hiring gimmick. Not only that, it’s ableist to people with learning disabilities and/or anxiety to use these for screening. The potential for discrimination is high—you would have to disclose a disability to request an exemption, which could knock you out of the running.

      If the employers need to test for job competencies, then the tests should be related to the actual work. But I’m going to argue that at mid-level, you shouldn’t need to do any of this. A portfolio or references should suffice. It’s lazy hiring at best and again, discriminatory at worst.

      1. Reba*

        It’s absolutely ableist, and plus it strikes me as… demeaning is too strong a term but it’s not exactly treating candidates with dignity is it — especially when it’s part of time-consuming stuff that is demanded early on in a process.

      2. Fran Fine*

        All of this, but especially your last couple of sentences. P&G has these kinds of tests (I believe for every role), and people I know who work there said they had a friend inside that gave them the answers so they could get around it. Don’t know if that’s totally true or possible, but if it is, serves them right for playing games with job applicants like this when a skills test or portfolio would suffice.

    7. Susan Calvin*

      I just did one of those… almost dropped out of the process on the spot tbh (I didn’t and have now reached the round where actual job related skills are being tested).

      It is *very* bizarre, and I can only imagine it’s supposed to be about attention to detail (mine had a bunch of ‘spot the difference’ type things?) and maybe time management (there was a time limit, and explicit instructions to just move on if you got stuck on any one question)

    8. Environmental Compliance*

      Oddly enough, the only time I’ve had to take one of those was for a retail position with Farm & Fleet when I was in high school (and it was combined with a behavioral test).

      I don’t think it’s worth anything, to be quite honest.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        I’ve had to take math tests as a cashier back in the day. But that was to see if I could still check people out & give correct change if the registers went down. (They were all specific to calculating cash transactions.)

    9. Beth*

      “what exactly is a cognitive test like this telling you?”

      It’s telling you, the applicant, that this company doesn’t know what it’s doing when it comes to filling this position.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Amen.
        Sometimes I have had luck by getting off the employment website and going directly to the company’s website. A lot of these ridiculous tests seem to come with employment websites. Just my opinion though, no scientific research going on here.
        But yeah, I took their stupid tests and then crickets. What a waste of time.

  18. Grits McGee*

    How to document how much work goes into a project for performance appraisals?

    I’m not getting the performance rating I think my work deserves, and I’m wondering if part of the problem is that my supervisor doesn’t understand how much work goes into the ad hoc projects I’m working on, especially the # of hours. COVID has severely affected my normal work, so I’ve been essentially making up projects for myself for the past 2 years. And these are big projects- giant analyses of 10,000+ stakeholder comments on regulatory changes, identifying hundreds of obsolete statutes that we still technically have on the books, creating detailed training guides for internal and external customers, etc. Basically tackling all of these huge, monstrous multi-year projects that people had been avoiding for decades because they had no idea where to even start.

    I’ve only been in this position for 2 years, so last year when my performance appraisal was “Very Successful” (2nd highest rating) instead of “Outstanding” (highest rating), the assumption was that no one in their first year would be operating at 100%. But I got another “Very Successful” this year, and my boss couldn’t give me any feedback on areas where I could improve. I’m wondering if I’m making things look too easy- I gave my boss metrics on how many comments I analyzed, but not that it took me 300 hours and we would have paid six figures for eDiscovery software to do the same thing. I think the # of hours helps to explain how big/complex projects are, but I also don’t want to give the impression that I think I deserve a higher rating because of effort, rather than results.

    What do you think? Would including the # of hours a project took explain how awesome I am at my job better than just talking about final results?

    1. Old worker*

      Your boss may not be able to give out an outstanding. At one job they listed how to get an outstanding was to “change the way the company does business” which ment it had to go beyond your department and beyond even your operating area of the business, so while its technically possible to get that outstanding, it’s practically impossible.

      1. Grits McGee*

        It’s certainly possible; this is a new-ish position in an organization I’ve been with for several years. I got the highest possible rating every year in every other position I’ve held at this org, but it may be that my new office is different.

    2. Colette*

      I’d suggest sending your manager weekly reports – what you did, what issues you ran into, how you solved them, etc. I think sustained communication will be more effective than doing it once at performance appraisal time.

      But it’s also important to understand that, in many places, it’s really rare to get the highest rating, so it might not make a big difference.

    3. Eden*

      I really relate to this – I’ve often felt like something was wrong when I don’t get the highest possible ratings. But “very successful” sounds perfectly respectable for someone who is doing a good job. Unless you know others are getting “outstanding” with less effort or impact of course.

      1. Grits McGee*

        Yeah, I’ve been having a hard time gauging my performance against what other people in my office are doing. I mentioned above that before I transferred to this office, I had several years of only Outstanding ratings for doing much lower-complexity work. (We weren’t allowed to address any long standing problems, like I am in my current office.) And the fact that none of these projects are my core job is definitely a complicating factor.

        1. Eden*

          Ah, that does put it in a different light for sure. Do you have a good enough rapport with anyone on your new team who you could discuss ratings with?

          1. Grits McGee*

            I think I could, if I did it delicately- that’s a really good idea! In my previous offices people got weird about performance ratings and I didn’t want to get involved with drama discussing it, but I think I unfairly brought that baggage into this new office where people are much more professional.

    4. PostalMixup*

      At my company, we get letter grades. Most people get an “A.” A select few who had a really good year get a “AA.” The only “AAA” I know of was the year my supervisor was awarded a patent for a very hot product that ended up making multi-million dollar sales and spawned an entire field of technology. My first year I had to ask how much grade inflation there was to know how to evaluate myself, because how would you know otherwise?

  19. Not_Kate_Winslet*

    This is a dumb and low-stakes question about Facebook. I manage a small team (less than 10). Pre-managing them, I was peers with several of them. Accordingly, I was Facebook friends with a handful of them. I finally got my act together and unfriended all of them as well as anyone else from my job who I have org chart authority over. My question – do I need to mention anything about it? I am not particularly active on Facebook regardless, so they may not even notice, but I do have some faint emotions about “ghosting” them on social media…

    1. Mid*

      I would highly doubt they’d notice, and if they do, they’ll probably be relieved that their manager won’t see their posts.

      1. londonedit*

        This. For part of lockdown last year I went off Facebook having been fairly active, and friends did notice and message to check I was OK (because they were friends, rather than colleagues, and because Covid was still new, etc). Then I sort of went back on it over the winter, but mainly read rather than posting, and then this summer I gave the whole thing up again and haven’t even looked at it since July. No one has noticed – or if they have, they’ve probably just thought ‘oh, she’s taking a break again’. If anyone does ask, that’s all you need to say – ‘Oh yeah, I haven’t been on there for ages now’. But I’m sure most of them won’t even notice – the algorithm is so crap that half the time I wasn’t seeing my friends’ posts anyway!

    2. Elle Woods*

      There’s no need to mention it. If they do notice and mention it to you, you can say something along the lines of wanting to keep personal and professional lives separate.

    3. ENFP in Texas*

      Don’t mention it, but if someone asks why, tell them. “I didn’t feel it was appropriate to be Facebook Friends with the folks that I manage, because I didn’t want there to be any concern about favoritism in the department.”

    4. Lana Kane*

      I didn’t mention it when I did it. No one asked me about it, I assume they understood or just didn’t notice. But if I had been asked I would have just explained that having them on social media wasn’t appropriate any longer. One person actually unfriended me before I got to them, and he didn’t give me a heads up either.

    5. RagingADHD*

      No, don’t say anything unless they ask. If they do ask, just say you realized that in your position you need to keep personal and professional stuff separate.

      Anyone who is bothered about it just proves the point that this kind of stuff doesn’t belong in work relationships.

  20. Mid*

    I think I’m burning out, and I’m dropping a lot of balls at work. Like, I realized I marked something as done that was very much not done for the last month. I worked until 11pm last night because I needed to double check everything I’ve done for the last month to make sure I didn’t mess up anything else (I work in the legal field where mistakes are a VERY big deal.)

    I know I need more help, and my firm has agreed to finally hire another admin…after the holidays. And they can’t decide if the new person will be FT or PT, temp or permanent, what things they’ll let the new admin do vs keep on my plate…it’s a lot.

    But, my question is: how do you keep up when work is overwhelming? What systems can you put in place that won’t massively slow you down but will help make sure you don’t forget things?

    My current system is 1. Flagging emails in my outlook and checking them off when they’re done and 2. Tracking spreadsheets for deadlines for complicated things. And usually it works fine, except the major thing I forgot for a month.

    1. SallyAnne*

      I have an excel doc that includes information on exactly where each project is in development. It includes the client, the project, the next deadline, the date it was last touched and who is currently responsible for it, my last action on it and next steps. Things that are in my court are highlighted in yellow (or orange if they are a higher priority), dates I’m expecting something back are in purple, and things that are not mine to address at the moment aren’t highlighted. Every project I’m responsible for is on that document. And if something has multiple moving parts, each part has its own row. They don’t leave that doc until the project has closed, even if my part is completely done. I’m on too many teams on too many projects with too many different project managers to not be tracking this stuff as closely as possible.

    2. Combinatorialist*

      Something that has really helped me has been separating the list of all things I need to do and the things I want to do today/this week. I need the list of all things because otherwise stuff falls through the cracks. But looking at it every day is overwhelming and I end up getting a lot less done.

      So I have a list of the next steps of all my projects and then every Monday, I sit down, go over my list, and make a tentative todo list for each day of the week. I try to pack all my meetings in Monday to Wednesday and leave Thursday and Friday mostly open for technical work (I need time to really dig into something).

      This has been really helpful and also creates artificial deadlines that help me when I don’t have anything pressing.

    3. Fellow Traveller*

      I still use a paper planner and paper wall calendar- I find my brain works better with tactile to do lists. And super priority tasks get written on a post it and stuck on my monitor. I’m very much and out of sight/out of mind person, so i need things staring me in the face.
      Also- deadline reminders set in my calendar.

    4. TiredEmployee*

      The thing that’s helped me is using a single task-tracking location, putting *everything* on it, but filtering it to just what’s relevant for the next week. The easiest for me is Outlook tasks, not just flagging emails but recurring “business as usual” tasks, things people ask for in meetings or via Teams, things I randomly remember being difficult and how they’d be made easier, individual tasks for individual steps in a much longer process etc., putting as much detail in the description box as I can and assigning dates to everything so it will eventually pop up in my “this week” list in the Outlook pane.

      I tell everyone to put their requests in writing, preferably email, and will absolutely stop what I’m doing to add a task if I remember it in the middle of something else because I cannot be trusted to remember it again later.

    5. Jaybee*

      You can set up your Outlook such that you have to manually mark emails as ‘read’. I’ve found this works for me better than futzing around with tags, especially because it’s easy to sort by ‘unread’ emails and pull those to the top.

      1. Ginger Baker*

        I do this too, it’s super helpful. I also keep one folder for “Processed” which holds pretty much everything that came into my inbox (i.e. didn’t get pre-filtered with Rules to a specific folder, e.g. my Fedex emails) that I have done whatever I needed to on (either an action, or just filed if there was no action to take). So anything in my inbox are items I still need to take an action on.

    6. Corporate Minion*

      I’ve started using the remind feature in Outlook. You can schedule when the reminder comes through and then I can snooze it if needed. That helps ensure I follow up

  21. Emei*

    Anyone want to share thoughts on moving from a creative role/industry to something more administrative? I’m in a copywriter/brand strategist at a small agency and deadly tired of the dysfunctional office environment. And also of needing to keep track of billable hours and working for global companies with questionable ethics. I have an interview next week for a administrator role at the local uni, focused on supporting a social sciences research environment with organising meetings, communication and networking/collaboration. No idea if I’ll even get an offer, of course, but somewhat nervous I’d get bored.

    1. OyHiOh*

      I’m an admin/office manager for an economic development district. When I took the job, I was certain I was going to be bored out of my skull within a year. Surprisingly, I’m not! I get to do communications for our office, as well as traditional office manager tasks. My organization is small enough that sometimes, I need to fill in for other job titles and present at public meetings, attend events that our org needs to have representatives at, and so on. It’s not a saving the world one program at a time, kind of job but our org does valuable work in the region and I can easily see how the role I fill helps to accomplish the organization’s mission.

  22. Badger*

    What has been your favorite job and why? Could be specific tasks or something entirely different about it – I’d like to know!

    I’m currently job searching and kind of struggling to find something that actually sounds enticing, so I would like to hear other people’s experiences, even if it is a completely different field.

    1. Pool Lounger*

      I was a cataloger at a library and mostly dealt with older and rare books. Many people would hate it, and before I started other librarians told me the work was boring, but I really enjoyed it. I especially loved one job, where I worked all alone in a vault if books. No coworkers around me, just books. Basically heaven in a job.

    2. SallyAnne*

      Teaching college freshmen. I loved watching them become fully themselves as they navigated from childhood to adulthood, from living by family and community expectations to who they wanted to be. I learned so much teaching those classes.

    3. Zephy*

      Best job I ever had was adoptions coordinator for an HSUS animal shelter. I was a professional kitty wrangler (and occasional puppy snuggler – one year I was scheduled to work on my birthday, but it was OK because I got pulled in to help socialize some chowchow/GSD/mutt puppies that were the roliest and poliest little babbus you can imagine), and I got to spend my time helping people #adoptdontshop and educating the public about something I’m interested in (animal behavior). It was not very sales-y, which is good because that is 100% my weakest area – when they switched from a set adoption fee to a name-your-price “donation” model I was consistently near the bottom of the rankings for donations solicited because I’m just not good at that.

      I left because I needed to fund my raging “sleeping inside and eating regularly” habit, but other than the pay it was an awesome job.

    4. Nope, not today*

      I always go for a job that offers some variety. I’ve been very lucky in having either a job that involved different things by nature (like the CPA firm – I did taxes, bookkeeping, payroll, A/P), or that I’ve been able to expand my role by taking on extra work when I had downtime, getting exposure to different tasks and departments that provided me variety. Doing the same tasks every single day with no change is something I cannot deal with. So I lean into the variety to keep me interested and engaged (I’m coming up on 9 years with my current company, and I definitely would have gotten bored long ago if I had a more narrow role here).

      1. Badger*

        Thanks to everybody who answered so far, these are great to read!

        Nope, not today: I’m definitely similar, I like to switch it up and also be busy (but not too busy). I guess the part where I went wrong in my current job is that I let people talk me into roles that I actually don’t enjoy that much because I was “so good” at the other stuff. Time to regain my focus.

    5. Asenath*

      I had an office admin job in a post-secondary institution. I took it on a temporary basis because nothing was coming up in the field I was targeting at the time, and for a while afterwards, and I needed an income. It turned out I really liked it. There was a lot of variety, I was able to use my initiative to set up processes to get things done and schedules and it was just the right balance of other people – a small number of co-workers in my immediate department, a small number of faculty who were practically never in their offices and who gave directions and then left me to work out what to do, and no contact the large numbers of the general public and some with a subset of students. A lot of people hate that type of job – some because it was rather amorphous at times; you really needed to take initiative; some because they absolutely abhorred scheduling, which I thought was like working out a puzzle. Oh, I was frustrated and irritated at times – no job is perfect – but overall I liked it a lot, and infinitely preferred it to the better-paying and higher level type job I spent the second longest period of my working life at.

      1. HE Admin*

        I also had an admin job at a higher ed institution. It was my first job out of college and I LOVED it. I am a very nosy person and love to know what’s going on with everyone, and an admin DEFINITELY gets all of that behind-the-scenes knowledge. Also my supervisor was awesome and sometimes our staff meetings involved drinking champagne in her office for the final part of the afternoon.

    6. Buni*

      Depends on whether you want intellectually-challenging or just…pay me. One of the best jobs I worked was – without going into excess detail – one where I was given a physical goal (making stuff,), a deadline for when it had to done, and then was just…left alone.

      The place was open 6am-midnight seven days a week, so if you wanted to pull a 3-day rager to finish then take the rest of the week off, fine. If you had to fit around childcare etc., fine. If you felt bleah and only wanted to work 3hrs a day, fine. I very much liked being able to work my own hours.

    7. Pumpkin Party*

      I’ve realized my favorite jobs have been WAY more about the environment than about the actual job duties. My favorite job allowed me to work remotely most days of the week and involved lots of home visits with clients, so I was rarely in the office. I also liked that there was freedom to have flex time with little hassle–as in, if I met with a client for 3 hours on a Saturday, I just made sure it was on my calendar and sent an email to my supervisor telling them I was leaving whenever I decided to flex those 3 hours. I didn’t need to ask permission to do things, I had responsive coworkers and supervisors, and we had regular staff meetings to check in with progress and to provide updates. It was also a state government job, so the PTO was pretty decent and the benefits were good. (I’d still be there if the program hadn’t ended!)

      My other favorite job was working at a refugee resettlement agency. I loved getting to know people from all over the world and from so many different backgrounds. But even in that job I realize that I loved how flexible it was–sometimes you had to pick clients up at the airport at 10:30pm, so then you got to flex your time whenever it worked for you within the pay period. The work was different every day, and nothing was ever boring! I also had an amazing boss that was approachable, gave good feedback, and really helped me understand boundaries and appropriate workplace behavior (it was my first non-food job out of college). Also, this job had me constantly out of the office working with clients, so, again, not having to be in the office more than a couple of hours a day seems to be important to me!

      All of my post-college jobs have been in the educational or social work fields, and honestly I’ve realized that I don’t really care much about what the day-to-day tasks are, as long as the job conditions/perks are right. I’ve also gotten less enthusiastic about “helping people” over the years, although it is still fulfilling sometimes.

      Good luck in your job search!

      1. Badger*

        Thank you!

        Though I don’t necessarily need to help people, jobs that seem to have a purpose appeal to me. On the other hand… money

    8. T. Boone Pickens*

      I worked as a greenskeeper at a golf course in college. Sure, the schedule was a bit screwy (really early AM starts as you can imagine) but I loved working outside, had good coworkers and I loved the meticulous nature of the job. The money was…not great haha but it was a terrific college job!

    9. Overeducated*

      Urban park ranger! I got to do a lot of reading and research to develop programs, tell stories to people who were excited to be there and talk about history, and get plenty of exercise walking around the city, and my coworkers were just a joy. (Sadly, it was seasonal without benefits.)

    10. Yesterday's Jam*

      This is a fun question! In general my favorite is the one that’s paying the bills right now, lol.

      I once worked in a cheese shop. Every customer was happy to be there, a lot of cheese was sampled, and I learned something new literally every day. And hey, no one ever complained about moldy product. I know, I’m not funny. :P

      If I had the opportunity to do something like that again, I like to think I’d jump for it.

    11. Elizabeth West*

      My favorite job ever was receptionist/office clerk in a materials testing lab. The job was part-time with no benefits and only paid minimum wage but it worked around my school schedule. Not something that would be sustainable for me now, but it did have several desirable elements I look for in more lucrative/stable roles.

      It involved checking in samples using chain-of-custody procedures, records maintenance, and report production. I also did various Igor tasks around the lab: sample disposal, washing glassware (including some kind of weird, bulbous thing I was terrified of breaking since it cost $$$), monitoring the temperature of sample refrigerators, watering the plants, and preparing sample bottles with acid for clients. I even learned to do water pH tests when samples came in after lab personnel had left for the day—those had to be done right away before the sample degraded. Watching stir bars whiz around made me happy, lol. (I wish I didn’t have dyscalculia; I would have been a scientist for sure.)

      Oh man, I loved it. Desirable elements included:
      -Variety!
      Usual samples were soil and water from building or remediation sites and paint and oil samples for the railroad. Sometimes more unusual ones would come in. Once we got rocks from a bridge project on the Osage River. I took home the discarded samples and used them in my planters for years. Another time, we got meth water cops had poured over a guy during an arrest at the airport.
      -Casual workplace.
      No blue jeans but colored jeans, a thing a the time, were acceptable. I had red, green, black, and khaki. :)
      -Genuinely nice coworkers.
      We were a small team who liked and respected each other. We often shut the office and walked to a nearby bar that had amazing sandwiches for lunch.
      -Training.
      They recognized that I couldn’t possibly know everything and were willing to teach me. Nobody seems to do that anymore. *eyeroll* This was the workplace where my predecessor left detailed procedural documents, thus inspiring me to write them for every subsequent job and develop an actual skill.
      -Reasonable bosses.
      In December 2000, we had 18 inches of snow in one day; my supervisor called me and told me to stay home.
      -The ability to have a little fun.
      The person who plowed during the giant snowpocalypse left a huge pile out back that didn’t melt until May. We went out a few times at lunch and played on it. We also pranked each other harmlessly with a rubber rat in the fridge and a cardboard cut-out of Frankenstein’s monster we moved around the office. Someone gave one of my coworkers a stuffed duck. His name was Bertram. We added him to the org chart, and I made a little desk for him out of a shoebox and a little felt coat. When we shut down, she gave me the duck. I still have him. I also have two pothos plants from that lab; I have no idea how old they are but they’re still going! Oh yeah, I have the rat too. :)

      If the job had been full-time with benefits, better pay, advancement opportunities and the lab hadn’t shut down, I might still be there.

    12. The Smiling Pug*

      My job at summers and holidays during college was demonstrating how to make crayons with vintage machinery. I love performing, but the position was very part-time and the pay wasn’t that great. I eventually transferred to doing admin, but part of me still misses that feeling of watching eyes light up when people are engaged.

    13. Flower necklace*

      I really enjoy my current job in public education (high school). I know a lot of people shudder at the thought of being a teacher, but I like the fast pace. I’m fully engaged when I’m teaching, so the hours fly by. I also really like everyone in my department and work at a school with a very supportive and empathetic admin team.

    14. Fran Fine*

      My favorite job of all time was when I was a librarian assistant in college. I had great coworkers that I (mostly) enjoyed, the ability to read or do homework or stream video during work (as long as I paid attention to patrons when they came up to the circulation/reserve desks and helped them in a timely fashion, I could do what I wanted according to management), and I was very good at shelving the books and developing/implementing new checkout procedures that I think are still in place to this day. It was a dream job – I was busy, but not too busy – and I had enough downtime to enjoy myself during the day.

      But my current job as a communications manager is a coming in as a close second. Sure, there are tedious day-to-day tasks my boss asks me to do around tracking metrics that I don’t particularly enjoy; however, I manage the most important program in the company and I developed the process and procedures for it, so I’m getting a lot of visibility in the C-suite that’s leading to other great opportunities for me. Plus, my manager also makes sure I get to do the fun design tasks I like (building and designing our colleague portal for starters), so I’m never bored.

    15. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

      I worked in a small museum making things for exhibits, moving objects around, talking with tribal representatives about the stuff in our collections, and so on. It was just a student work study job but I loved it.

    16. Anon for this*

      I love being a CFO at small, growing companies, as long as the founder(s) isn’t a lunatic. I get to have such a huge span of influence, and understand everything about the company and product. I get to be involved in HR, IT, sometimes facilities, in addition to all the accounting and finance things. I usually get to do multiple systems implementations and all kinds of process improvements that lets me work with everyone in the company. I just love the variety!

    17. Diatryma*

      Two contenders:

      Grading short-answer responses on statewide standardized tests. It was four hours of evening work after I got back from subbing with the school district, paid per response graded, the computers had had their clocks removed for quality of life reasons (I really appreciated that) and it was a sort of mental throughput job. I was absolutely amazing at it. I read fast, react quickly, can read terrible handwriting and interpet creative spelling (working with kids is a big help there), and being paid a quarter per response added up to a hundred dollars an hour or so some days. I was praised and made a quarter of my (admittedly pathetic) annual income in three weeks.

      Working with disabled young adults in a school-district program for job and life skills. Very different– pittance pay, lots of trying to explain tasks and adapt either instructions or the tasks themselves for the students, tons of time in the community, including travel time, lots of social modeling and breaking down how people work. I liked it for the mental workout and how it trained me to evaluate tasks and instructions for each person. Okay, so a student can’t hang shirts right now– how do we fix that? What’s the problem? Oh, we need a jig to lay it out flat. Another student needs help understanding what ‘shoulders straight’ means. And I got to know a lot of nonprofit folks in the community, since that’s where we got most of our job training.

      In both cases, knowing that I was doing a Good Job was really important. I thrive on praise and recognition. The money matters, too– I’d still be at the second job if it paid a living wage.

  23. sassafras*

    This is too vague for a real question and is partially just a vent, so hurrah open thread! tl;dr how have you handled extreme scope creep in small companies, and how did it go?

    I’m trying to figure out how to best ask for a) reduction in scope creep and/or b) higher pay at a job that I intend to leave in the next year. I work for a very small company and was hired in an analyst position, but as is common, as the most tech-savvy person I have also become the IT manager/sysadmin and a junior developer. I’m certainly an amateur at these latter two roles but things have escalated well beyond teaching people how to post on WordPress – I develop applications in a variety of languages for internal and client use and I manage purchasing, deployment and support for work-issued laptops and software, among other things. I am the only person who is capable of doing this kind of work at the company, afaik.

    At first I thought this was run-of-the-mill small company stuff, especially since I generally like doing these things, sometimes more than what I was actually hired to do! But I’m increasingly disgruntled with the demands on my time and the level of task-switching that occurs from basically having three different jobs that I’m supposed to be professionally competent at that don’t intersect with one another. I also think that in trying to be kind, my boss is assigning less actual research work to me because I am busy with these other tasks, which isn’t great given that I’m looking to move on and would like to have more recent accomplishments on my resume (of course, I wouldn’t pitch it this way…)

    Ultimately I think the only way to solve this is to leave, which I’m planning to do when my contract is up in the summer. But in the meantime, I can’t tell if my focus should be to get more money and milk the company’s reliance on me for all its worth, or try to set and enforce boundaries to be less annoyed with life and have a better portfolio. I’m a little uncomfortable with the first because I think I’m paid fairly or overpaid for an analyst in my position and I wonder if asking for more money will further encourage my boss to think of me as professional IT, but I’m not even sure if the second is possible. Any success (or horror?) stories from anyone who went through something similar?

    1. Badger*

      I would make this decision based on what you want to accomplish in the mid- and longterm and not the short term. There surely is money to be made in IT, but if you actually want to stay an analyst and get analyst roles in your job search, I would definitely put your focus back on that – especially on getting and completing work tasks that correspond with this role.
      This can mean things like making absolutely sure that you are not volunteering (or let yourself be volunteered) for additional unrelated tasks. You will probably not get out of the IT parts now, but you can make a decision for yourself that you won’t spend more than x hours per weeks on this and if you get handed more tasks in that regard, let people know that it will take longer. If people are unhappy with that, point out that you should be cross-training or hiring somebody for this IT stuff, to be safe in case you get sick or plain because the volume is getting too much to be handled by you as a “side job”.

      1. sassafras*

        I wish I knew! It’s challenging to sort out whether my greater enjoyment of these the IT/CS tasks over the analyst work is mostly because the analyst work is getting crowded out by this other stuff, or if I should really look at switching fields. I do have a graduate degree related to the analyst work (paid for by this employer) so it might be a weird look.

        Setting an hourly goal is a great idea, and maybe even better if I can bring it up at year-end review to say concretely, I’m spending XYZ hours a week on IT, what can we do about that?

    2. Zephy*

      I don’t think you can ask for both a reduction in responsibilities and more pay at the same time. If you don’t want to pivot into IT/CS more generally as a career, and would rather show more accomplishments in your analyst role, focus on trying to get the IT stuff off your plate.

      1. sassafras*

        You’re right, that probably should be an “or”, not an “and/or” – though I’ve been thinking of it as a potential “and” because I’m not convinced that a reduction in responsibilities would stick (very small company and I can’t dip out until the summer contractually). But it’s good for me to be reminded that my boss probably won’t see it that way.

  24. Voodoo Priestess*

    I have a young engineer that I’m over-seeing/training and it’s…not going well. This is not the first young person I’ve done this with, but this is the first time I’ve encountered someone so defensive and resistant to feedback that I’ve seen no progress in the 8 months we’ve been working together. I’m not their supervisor but I’m responsible for their work on this project. After noting several patterns of behavior, I did talk to their supervisor and we came up with a plan where Supervisor would address the feedback issue and I would tackle the actual technical feedback.

    Well, that conversation went off the rails and turned into huge drama. After the “feedback” conversation, I received a highly defensive, 6-paragraph long email being defensive about all of the feedback they’ve received. *Face palm* Things were escalated, more conversations happened and we were hopeful they would turn things around.

    Fast forward to this week and it’s all the same BS. They’re not following through on tasks, making the same (repeated) mistakes, getting super defensive, and now they are questioning my judgment. I’m documenting all of this, but what else can I do?

    For additional context, I have 15 years experience and I’m an expert on the niche software we’re using. I have a MS and I’m heavily credentialed. The engineer had a PhD but less than 2 years of experience and no licenses/credentials and previous managers have had difficulties with this person. They are also from a culture with defined hierarchies, so I think there may be some cultural issues at play.

    Any suggestions other than document everything (and bang my head against my desk)? I’m not in a position to enforce any consequences, I can only provide my opinion to the official supervisor (along with my documentation).

    2. FashionablyEvil*

      Agree, continue to document. If you haven’t already, I would also say something like, “I am increasingly concerned that these issues are not coachable/fixable and that we may need to be looking at a plan to transition Fergus out.”

      (And also, I feel you on the email! Had a similar conversation with an employee recently and got a 7 page (single spaced!!!) reply.)

      1. Voodoo Priestess*

        That was what I was thinking. We had the conversation and it’s like they’re doubling down in the defensiveness. I talked with our PM (not the supervisor) and told him that I felt this would not be a good fit long term, given the feedback issue (and mediocre performance). I think I’m going to put some additional notes in my documentation to show the behavior got worse after the initial conversations. I want to give them time to improve, but holy shit, one week out and now they’re questioning my technical judgment, when I’m one of the company’s experts? Their lack of self awareness is amazing.

        1. Jean*

          Keep in mind that all the time in the world isn’t going to make a difference if this person doesn’t believe that they need any improvement, and if they aren’t willing to put any effort into improving. (Which it sounds like they aren’t.) I would go ahead and make peace with the idea that this isn’t going to work out, and more time/more of the same efforts from you aren’t going to solve this problem. The mindset from here needs to be “how best to transition this person out of this role”.

    3. Hlao-roo*

      Can you talk to the new hire’s supervisor (or maybe your own supervisor, whoever the appropriate person is) and ask if the new hire can be transferred off your project? They won’t be your problem anymore, and it might make it clearer to management just how much they aren’t working out.

      1. Voodoo Priestess*

        We’ve already discussed that. The problem is that we’re slow at the moment, so there’s not a lot to transition them to. I’m not trying to foist the problem on someone else, either. But I am certainly looking forward to wrapping this up and being done with them!

        2. Observer*

          Well, maybe the next step should be to transition him OUT.

          In any case, getting his manager to deal with this is not “foisting the problem on someone else”, it’s getting the appropriate person to deal with an issue that is well within their scope.

          I would also make sure that your manager, not just the PM is in the loop and knows what’s going on.

        3. WellRed*

          It’s still a waste of your time. I assume you shared the email rant? If you’re responsible for the work itself, it might be worth pressing again or at least frame how this works in the future if it happens again. Hang in there.

    4. Observer*

      For additional context, I have 15 years experience and I’m an expert on the niche software we’re using. I have a MS and I’m heavily credentialed. The engineer had a PhD but less than 2 years of experience and no licenses/credentials and previous managers have had difficulties with this person. They are also from a culture with defined hierarchies, so I think there may be some cultural issues at play.

      Um, I hate to jump to this, but are you a woman or POC?

      1. Mid*

        That was my first thought as well. Or they’re someone who spent too long in academia and thinks that a PhD means you’re a genius and everyone else is lesser. (No offense to academics here, not everyone is like that, but there is a certain group of PhDs who seem to think this way.)

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Suggestions:
      –Tell your boss and/or their boss that this person is not teachable. Cite examples of inability to stop making the same mistakes for eight months.
      Make sure you point out that you have never encountered a trainee this obstinate. You do not believe things will ever change because the trainee would have remedied by now.

      –Ask your boss to be relieved of training duties for this person. Explain that you have gone as far as you can go. Make sure the boss reads the 6 paragraph rant.
      I had super good luck in a parallel situation. I was working retail. The trainee would arrive for work and go to a particular spot in the store. The trainee would stand in that spot for the entire shift. I asked her to do things, she flat out refused. I don’t think she ever rang up a sale. Anyway, unlike your boss, my boss thought I was just making this all up. So I said, “Okay you take her then and see what you can do.” The boss worked with her one night and she was fired at the end of her shift.
      You have been working with this person for eight months, and it looks like they have been there longer than that because you say that he has had problems with others. It’s okay to point out that no one seems to be able to extract anything productive out of this person.
      Barest minimum I would asked to be relieved from training this person. They are not teachable.

  25. ChemAnon*

    my company is “very family oriented” yet offers no parental leave.

    any way to tactfully say “I need this or I am leaving”? or should i just leave

    1. Corporate Minion*

      I think it is worth telling them in the chance they’ll add it.
      Maybe point out ‘very family oriented’ should include parental leave and that is something you want?

        1. urguncle*

          “As our new benefits year approaches, I’m wondering what [company] is considering to keep people, especially those who have or want to start families* in the workforce.” If they hem and haw and say essentially we’re doing nothing, you have your answer. If they answer back, but it’s all just fluff that means “we’re happy to support you if you want to show up at work 2 days after giving birth,” you may want to mention in a competitive landscape right now, it may be worth looking into those options.

          * I recognize that “family” doesn’t necessarily mean raising children, but in this context it would be as a euphemism to say instead of “I want to know if I can get pregnant and keep my job.”

          1. Pop*

            Oh I think this is way too soft! You need to ask directly: “I would love to see (company) offer parental leave.” Because your company is smaller (doesn’t quality for FMLA), it may honestly not have come up before. Often people go into these conversations ready to have to get in an argument, but the company is happy to offer the 12 weeks, despite not formally following FMLA.

    2. Pop*

      It doesn’t hurt to ask! Their response will be helpful either way. Do you mean time off at all (if they don’t fall under the requirements for FMLA), or paid leave? If it’s paid leave, asking for something like that would be a big decision for them to change – they’d have to offer it across the board and not just to you – and so it seems unlikely, unless you’re in a pretty senior position.

      1. ChemAnon*

        Time off at all. I have STD and that’s it – they don’t qualify for FMLA.

        It’s just frustrating that my husband gets more time off for a new kid at his job than I do.

        Any ideas for how to ask?

    3. FashionablyEvil*

      Truly, one of my proudest work accomplishments was getting paid parental leave for my company. I framed it as, “We say that we value our employees and we’re a mission-driven organization focused on improving people’s lives. Paid parental leave is a critical part of living up to our mission and values.” I had a conversation with our CEO where we did some back of the envelope calculations and he took it back to HR/finance. A few months later, the policy rolled out. I remain amazed that speaking up made such a difference. (For reference, my company has about 5,000 employees and prior to this change, all you got was STD/PTO/unpaid leave.)

      1. Moth*

        This is also one of the things I’m proudest of at work as well. I can’t say that I was the only one to request it (and I didn’t take quite the same route you did), but I’m still confident it made an impact. My company also touts its family values and so anytime we had a company-wide meeting or surveys went out, I brought it up every time as a concern. I phrased similarly, but also included a lot of data about overall health benefits for parents and children when paid parental leave is provided. It probably took two years, but eventually I was invited to a roundtable with the CEO and some others where they wanted to brainstorm ways they could help parents (which says something else about how anonymous all of those anonymous questions I submitted really were…). About 6 months after that, they announced they would be adding 12 weeks of paid leave for primary parents and 6 weeks for secondary parents. I know it may not come in time to help you, but if you’re willing to stick it out and make it a point you’re willing to stick with, you might be able to help make a change that will help a lot of others.

  26. Anonys*

    Hey AAM readers – I have a rather detailed question but google and my own colleagues have only been of limited help so far so thought to ask this resourceful community.

    I’m wondering what kind of software would be most suitable for a certain kind of status reporting we do. Basically, we have a process where:
    – one person has to filll out a range of questions (about 30) – some are yes/no questions but most also have at least the option to add comments or elaborate why somthing might not be applicable (this part we are currently doing in MS forms. We used to do this in excel or pdf but found that people were skipping questions and you can make them mandatory in forms).
    – then 4 other people, all with different roles, will see the result of the questionaire, assess whether it matches with their own information and are also asked 2/3 questions as well.
    – there are about 40 people who have to fill out to fill out these status report forms and then consequently four times are many who have to check the forms.

    The process at the moment is highly manual as we have to collect the forms and then distribute them and collect the individual responses. Most of our time is spent chasing people and checking what has been done. It would be great if there were a platform where this could be done automatically, eg. where filling out the questionaire/report and assessing it could happen on the same platform.

    I feel like a lot of tools, such as power automate, are focused on creating great graphics out of data – but thats not really something we need, we just need to facilitate the communication between the different interfaces.

    Any help would be appreciated!

    1. Not a Name Today*

      We had some workflow processes and we used a form Sharepoint. If you really, really get into the functionality, there are lots of workflow options. But you have to put a ton of effort into setting up the rules.
      There are probably other workflow systems that would work better, but if you are desperate, it’s an option.

      1. nym*

        Yes, we’re in the middle of a similar change, using linked forms inside a sharepoint list with a set of workflows driven by the data in the list. Each task may take up to two years to complete the process and we use the forms to track where in the process it is and what the next step needs to be. It’s things like “if Box A is checked, ask Person to complete questions 2-5. If Task B is completed, send email to Person letting them know the widget is ready for task C. If Date D is today and field F is not marked complete, inform Person that they have a due date today.” I’ve taken all of the output we’re getting from that and built a set of reports and PowerBI dashboards that our supervisors can use to track progress on the widgets and performance for the Persons.

        It’s taken us about a year to get up and running as probably a 20% time project. We had a dedicated SharePoint developer to do the actual form development and workflows, because of the permissions and access restrictions we have at the enterprise level. At a smaller organization, I could have done it myself with some trial-and-error and google-fu.

        My 20% of the project was mapping workflows, setting parameters for data fields, and doing mockups for data entry forms, which require subject matter expertise that our sharepoint developer didn’t have. That’s fair, it’s not her job to be an expert in my field! It’s her job to be an expert at the technology tools, and pair that up with my expertise to get the result we need.

    2. Red*

      I personally hate Google products for anything work related, but Google forms would be a good way to get this in one place digitally and accomplish what you outlined above.

    3. Cat*

      A google form might work for you or at least be worth looking into. It allows you to set up a questionnaire and then you (the owner/anyone else you have given permission to) have the option to view all responses compiled into a single spreadsheet. It would also definitely allow you to make questions mandatory.

    4. Zephy*

      Can the original status report form be streamlined in any way, like does it need to be that long?

      Is it the case that you’re using one form to report the status of say, five different widgets, so certain questions/sections are never applicable to Widget A, others are never applicable to Widget B, etc?

      I know there are ways to set up surveys/questionnaires to display different sets of questions under different circumstances (of course I can’t think of any specific tools right now that can do that, probably MS Forms has a way to?) – so maybe you put in a question at the beginning like “which widget are you reporting on” and then it only shows the questions that are applicable to that widget, rather than having someone go through and answer 30 questions where 25 of them are about an unrelated product.

    7. Not a cat*

      Enterprise Content Management (also known as content services). It’s got the forms piece, workflow functionality for approvals, or sending back if not complete. The form fields can be pushed into other systems (interoperable), audit trail and the forms interface can let you see exactly where the form is in the process.

    8. Snarky Snarkerson*

      Qualtrics. You can distribute the questions electronically and set automatic follow ups for those who have not responded yet.

  27. Frankie Bergstein*

    I’ve been in my perfectly good job for almost four years now. Multiple promotions and raises, recognitions/awards for a job well done on certain projects. Pay and hours are wonderful. It’s drama free.

    There is one quibble, that folks do a lot of indirect communication rather than stating things as they are. It could be more BIPOC/diversity friendly than it is, but they’re actually meaningfully and actively working on that.

    However, I’m getting bored. I’m no longer on a steep learning curve. I feel stale — I could do most parts of my job in my sleep.

    My question is this:

    1. Is this just how work is? It’s not meant to fulfill you, foster your growth, etc. but just provide you a paycheck and enough freedom to do things that you care about with your life. Like, maybe this is the best my professional life can be? OR
    2. Does this mean it’s time to take on new assignments at work and/or look for another job or even a temporary job (we get to do 3-6 month rotations with management approval)?

    I’m sort of a naturally restless, itchy person so am strongly leaning towards #2, especially the temporary job.

    For those of you who have been in a spot similar to this one, how did you deal with it? Thanks for reading to this point!

      1. Frankie Bergstein*

        Maybe we’ll figure it out together! Or maybe the comments on this thread will be helpful to you too.

        Glad to know I’m not alone, Corporate Minion!

    2. ThatGirl*

      In your case, I would look for professional development that you can do both inside and outside the company. Learn a new skill, or more about your specific subject area. Learn more about what other parts of the business do. Ask your manager, if you have a good relationship with them, about ways to grow. Is there a career path within your company, something you could get promoted to? These are all things worth considering.

      1. Frankie Bergstein*

        This is good advice! I’ve been doing this a bit — change management, facilitation, new organization systems, mentoring, new flavors of projects — I think I will have that conversation with my manager about places to grow — good idea!

        I’m pretty much promoted as far up as I can go, though, unless someone retires (which is a long ways away).

        1. ThatGirl*

          Well, the time may come when you want a higher-level job outside your company, but in the meantime, it certainly can’t hurt to know more cross-functionally. Good luck :)

    3. BalanceofThemis*

      I was there a couple years ago. The first thing that has to happen is that you do some soul searching to figure out what you want out of your job. Do you want to be constantly challenged and learning new things? Or, is work just a means to an end, a paycheck that will allow you to do the things you like outside of work? Or, do you want a job that you are passionate about, where the work is meaningful?

      Once you figure that out, it will make it easier to choose your next step.

      1. Frankie Bergstein*

        I am one of those elder millennials who was told we had to go out and change the world with our work. That messaging has certainly met reality, but I’m not sure what to reset that belief to. Is it, “work is just a means to an end?” Or, “work is a source not only of a paycheck, but meeting folks I wouldn’t meet with otherwise, some meaningful (to me) accomplishments, and some learning/growth as I watch my own leadership capabilities develop.” I do want it to be the latter.

        I think I’m the kind of person that needs to be constantly growing in my personal and professional life. It’s easier to do that in my personal life, of course, because I have so much more control over it. Professionally, even if I just worked with different coworkers and picked up their new/better ways of doing things, that would feel amazing.

        What did you end up doing a few years ago? Did it work? Are you in the same job, or did you end up moving on?

        1. Moth*

          If you want it to be the latter, I think it’s worth trying to find ways to make that happen for you (like some of the options you mentioned). For many people, earning a paycheck at a job they like is enough. Others need more of that challenge and growth in their roles. And probably for most people, it can move back and forth between those two ends of the spectrum at different points in their career. For questions like this, I think it might need to be less about, “what should people expect from a job” and more about, “what’s important to me in a job right now?” I know I’ve definitely been in both positions and it is hard when you’re itching to grow and do more and it feels like you just can’t. I hope some of the options for growth work out for you!

    4. Forkeater*

      That sounds like an excellent job and I can totally relate to getting itchy (and I’ve left multiple excellent jobs more for itchiness rather than advancement). The job rotation thing sounds like my personal dream, can you try that?

      1. Frankie Bergstein*

        Right?! I love the idea of the rotation too! I’m negotiating for that now. Fingers crossed!

    5. Cats on a Bench*

      I think it depends on the person. For me, I’d be happy to have the paycheck from a low stress, drama free job where I was doing well because I would then have the time, energy and bandwidth to do the things outside of work I was interested in and would rather be doing than work. That’s where I would turn for my life fulfillment needs. But other people want to get that from their work. You could try one of those temporary rotations and see if it pulls you out of the doldrums. Or you could pursue an interest outside of work for a few months and see if you still feel like you need more from work. And who knows, maybe just finding a way to wait it out a few months you will feel differently or things will change at work and renew your sense of purpose.

    6. PollyQ*

      I’d say it’s somewhere between 1 & 2. Most employers don’t much care about your growth/fulfillment/etc., so it’s up to you to proactively seek out those things if you want them. And if you want them, then I do believe you’ll be able to find them. Rotations within your company sound like a great place to start. You can also look to get more responsibility within your current job, aim for promotions, or possibly move to a different company with more growth options. It’s also possible you’ll ultimately want to change careers to something that’s more interesting to you overall. But I definitely don’t think that this is the “best” you can expect from a job/career.

    7. RagingADHD*

      Either of those can be the right answer. It just depends on what you want. Some people want the paycheck & freedom, some people want the challenge and growth. And sometimes it depends on their stage of life and what else they have going on with family, health, etc.

      If you want #2, go for it. Start with asking for new assignments or asking about professional development or a growth track within the company. Might as well see what’s available close to hand before you start looking elsewhere.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      For question #1- what is your vision for your life? What are your life goals- out side of work goals?

      I do think that there is a building up period in life where pay increases and promotions are necessary to build a well balanced adult life. However, there are also times in life where holding steady is the route to go. I remember buying this house, dealing with dying parents, training a pup and so on, I really had no interest in taking on more at work. I had enough at home. At that time I was making okay money and the hours were convenient for me. (There was not much more positive about that job.)

      When I had started that job I had a list of 5 life goals. I met 4 of those goals and quit the job so I could accomplish the 5th goal of finishing my degree. Not all stepping stones happen at work.

      I think this is actually a life question. How does this job fit in with your life goals? How does it help you meet your life goals? (some folks might say insurance or schooling, etc.) My life goals were the reasons I showed up for work every day. And these goals were my motivation for caring about my work with nothing else would motivate me.

      For the boredom aspect- there are two types of boredom (IMO). One is the boredom that comes from having nothing to do. This is THE boredom I will not deal with, it’s a deal breaker and I leave the job. The lesser boredom comes from being able to do my job in my sleep because I am so familiar with it. I changed this into a challenge, how do I look at the mundane with fresh eyes? How can I beef up the work I already do to keep it interesting to me? Any job can become boring after the years pass. I challenged myself to figure out how to stay in place so I could continue meeting the life goals I had set for myself. I have often thought if I quit a job because of boredom, what will I do when I get bored at the next job? I cannot make it a life habit to quit when bored. Hence the life goals, this helped all of that make more sense.

      Hidden bonus, there were days where being able to do my job while sleeping was very handy. I wish I was joking. Gosh, I got so tired. I ran hard at those life goals. I caught myself thinking- if I were not so familiar with my job I would be making mistakes every minute of the day- I was so exhausted that I was running on auto-pilot. I do not recommend running that hard at your goals.

    9. Mid*

      How much of the itchiness is related to this job versus the world at large? I recently realized that a lot of my desire to switch jobs was due to the fact I was feeling stuck and trapped in the world due to lockdowns/lack of travel and exploration/etc. I’m not saying this is necessarily your same situation, but once I realized that a lot of my feelings of stagnation were because my routine and daily life was stagnant, it helped a lot.

  28. GovJobs*

    I’m thinking about applying for a federal government job. Can anyone provide any insight on the process? How quickly or slowly they move, salary negotiation (is that possible?), etc. Even the smallest tips would be greatly appreciated. Thank you!

    1. Frankie Bergstein*

      They move notoriously slowly — 1 year between application submission and start date. USAjobs.gov is your portal for all of it. There are some webinars that you can attend that tell you how to navigate USAjobs.gov, which are available to the public.

      I was told to use the resume builder on the site. It’s helpful — you won’t have to re-enter the same information for future jobs, so I recommend it.

      Folks I’ve known have negotiated vacation and salary successfully if they have something to link it to — a current salary, for example, or an industry norm if they’re a lawyer or something like that.

    2. AJPS*

      Hiya, I applied to 18F as a US federal application newbie a while back and though I didn’t get an interview, found their info about federal jobs for those unfamiliar very helpful. I don’t claim to know anything about TTS, GSA or whether this is current, or applicable to your search, but may be some useful nuggets if you’re looking at technology roles: https://join.tts.gsa.gov/hiring-process/

    3. just a thought*

      Really take the time to tailor your resume to the position.
      If it says something like “familiar with X policy” look up X policy handbook and find the key words and parts you’re familiar with to add to your resume.

      I got a direct hire position, which was faster, but I applied in February, interviewed in March or April, then started in July. I also already had the security clearance. Again, this was a direct-hire position where the timeline is a lot faster

    4. Twisted Lion*

      Federal resumes are supposed to be long. I suggest looking up some examples. Mine is about 15 pages.
      The process really depends on the needs of the organization. We just interviewed people this week and she had her temporary offer yesterday which she accepted. But her start date, well that will take longer. Look up the OPM pay tables for your area. That will give you an idea.

    5. Reba*

      Salary negotiation as such is not really possible, but you can talk about how the position is graded and what “step” you get — basically, your starting position in the salary band. Even that is not negotiating in the sense of seeing how much I can ask for/how much they are willing to pay, it’s more of demonstrating how your experience, education etc. align with the requirements of a higher step, or if the job is designated “difficult to fill.” Any posting will have the GS number or range for the role, and you can look up exactly what the salary is for your area, called locality pay scale. Student loan repayment and relocation assistance might also be possible!

      Make your USAJobs resume extremely detailed and use all the key words. I was also told to answer the questionnaire ranking myself as highly as I possibly truthfully could. (Does this defeat the purpose of the screening questionnaire? perhaps, but apparently lots of applicants are coached to do this, and besides it’s kind of easy to deflate your own experience in multiple choice format.)

      There are some online forums specifically dedicated to federal hiring, so you might look into those too. Good luck!

    6. Aunt Piddy*

      So slow. SO SLOW. But at least many places will keep you updated on the status.

      Some room for negotiation, but not much since there are pretty strict salary bands in place. If you want to move up a level you’ll have to show experience that would bump you up. There’s not a ton of wiggle room.

    7. Longtime Lurker*

      Use both the internal resume builder and attach a “normal” formatted version. The first will help you get through the HR system, but hiring manager may likely prefer the easier to read kind (all semblance of formatting and spacing gets zapped out along the way, it’s not pretty!)

  29. Heffalump*

    I know the case of the dress code interns has been flogged pretty thoroughly in the comments, but there’s an angle that I don’t think has been covered. Alison said the OP contacted her after the story ran and still didn’t think s/he and the other interns had done anything wrong.

    As a matter of psychological interest, I’m wondering whether, in the OP’s mind, “the punishment doesn’t fit the crime” morphed into “we did nothing wrong.” I’ve had similar feelings when people reacted to my mistakes with disproportionate anger.

    1. angstrom*

      For someone with a binary view of the world, “They were wrong” = “I was right”. Any fault on one side means that the other party is blameless. Shared blame/responsibility does not exist. “We screwed up and then they overreacted” is too nuanced for someone like that.

    2. ecnaseener*

      That could be it, but it might be simpler: if the wording was “did nothing wrong,” that wording usually implies nothing ethically wrong. They had every right to ask for what they wanted and to go about it via petition.

      They were wrong (incorrect) about how internships work, how office policies work, how professional communication works, etc etc etc, but they didn’t DO anything wrong.

      1. Jaybee*

        You don’t think there’s anything ethically wrong in explicitly calling out another employee for being an exception to the dress code?

        Clearly they didn’t have the experience to intuit that that was probably due to ADA accomodations, so they didn’t realize they were picking on a disabled woman, but that’s the biggest reason why it’s a bad idea to point someone else out and say ‘they get to do X, why can’t I?’ I suppose it may fall a little outside the bound of ethics but it was certainly rude of them.

        1. RagingADHD*

          There was a moral/ethical issue with persisting after they were told. Before they were told they were ignorant. Should they have known better? Maybe — but these are interns and at that point you’re getting into how people are brought up and what they’re taught. People don’t know what they don’t know.

          It’s not immoral to be ignorant, but it is definitely wrong to refuse to learn, or refuse to apologize or have empathy for someone you’ve been a jerk to.

          1. Fran Fine*

            Yup. Once they were told why the other employee was an exception and they doubled down on their nonsense, that’s when I lost all sympathy for them. They absolutely did do wrong and they deserved the firing they received as a result (and the subsequent dragging here).

      2. Heffalump*

        “Did nothing wrong” isn’t a direct quote. It’s my paraphrase (months after the fact) of Alison’s paraphrase of the OP’s follow-up email to her. But I think you’re essentially right.

      3. Observer*

        It seems to me that their attitude was the they did nothing wring AND nothing incorrect. But in fact, they DID to something that was both wrong and incorrect.

        Allison covered the incorrect part pretty well, but not so much the wrong part, although it’s implied.

        What they did wrong: They were disrespectful and rude. They called out someone else’s behavior with absolutely no sense that there MIGHT be a reason why that behavior was being allowed. And when they were given the information about the other person they expressed not sympathy or remorse, and could not even garner the wherewithal for a rote apology. Rather they blamed their supervisors for the fact that they didn’t have that information despite the fact that there is no earthly reason that they should have had that information. Which is to say, the expressed absolutely zero understanding of reasonable expectations of privacy AND they take absolutely no responsibility for their errors. These are all not good in a work context, but they are also just bad behavior. Maybe not the worst we’ve seen, but if this were one of my kids, they would have heard an earful from me.

        And I would tell them that even if I am 100% incorrect about how the workplace in general, or their profession in particular works. Because this is just not how good and reasonable people operate.

        1. ecnaseener*

          I forgot about the person they complained about – comfy shoes or something, right? Yeah, that part was rude and invasive. The petition wasn’t though.

          1. Mannequin*

            I’m all for people in office jobs wearing comfy shoes. Heels and dress shoes as a job requirement are ridiculous.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      “I’ve had similar feelings when people reacted to my mistakes with disproportionate anger.”
      And right in that very sentence you agree that you did make mistakes. This is very different from the interns.

      The desire to defend oneself isn’t wrong, actually that’s pretty normal. It’s the unwillingness to listen to others that is problematic.

      The unwillingness to listen to others won’t fly in almost any setting I can think of. A person can stand up for themselves yet still be willing to hear and consider other angles to the storyline.

      I remember one day at work, much younger me said “XYZ”. Where XYZ was outdated and just plain wrong. My coworker JUMPED on me. She had very bad delivery but her message was correct. I really did not respond in the moment. (I’m kind of introverted, I need to go think about it, not discuss it out loud.) So I went home and did some homework, I read up on the subject. And I realized my cohort was correct. But yes, I really wanted to dig my heals in atm because I felt a strong need to protect myself from her rant, her verbal assault. If you want someone to change their opinion this is NOT how to do it. I was reacting solely to her method of delivery and I was not able to fully process her message.

      Of course, I don’t know the examples you are thinking of. It could very well be that the angry person was just an AH and that is the explanation for your setting. Often times I tend to think of disproportionate anger as a symptom of weak communication skills. You know, like when a toddler wants a cookie and does not get it, what happens next is the toddler uses the only communication skill available to them. Adults with poor communication skills can have temper issues or other types of displays.

      1. Fran Fine*

        “I’ve had similar feelings when people reacted to my mistakes with disproportionate anger.”

        And the anger in this case wasn’t disproportionate. They deserved to be fired because they were insubordinate after their management shut them down, they kept harping on the situation even when they were told the reason behind why the one employee they referenced as being out of compliance was not following the dress code, and they were using work time to try and overturn a decision that was final instead of doing what they were brought there to do in the first place. I would have fired them, too. Who wants to put up with that mess from a bunch of people you don’t even need around to begin with?

        1. Mannequin*

          No, what they DESERVED was to be able to wear comfortable shoes at work. There’s nothing egregious about that request, and I would (and have successfully) fought for that right myself.

    4. allathian*

      Yeah, that whole thread was, um, interesting. And it makes me extremely grateful to work for an employer with a casual dress code. I will never voluntarily dress in uncomfortable clothes again, although I do recognize that the definition of comfortable varies quite a lot, comfortable for me includes jeans and an underwire bra.

  30. BRR*

    Any advice on being patient with a raise/promotion? The short version is I asked for a promotion and my manager said yes but because I work at a public college and am union there are a ton of hoops to jump through. I’m also paid well under market rate and can’t get an idea of what the raise would be.

    I’m pretty unmotivated at the momen since I’ve been doing things well above my title/pay for over two years and there’s not telling if or when I might get promoted. I’m going to keep job hunting in the meantime because I know it’s not final until it’s in my paycheck, but there are few openings in my field and I otherwise like my job a lot.

    1. Midwest Manager*

      How long has it been since you talked with your manager about this? It might be worth talking to them again to see where things stand. Public institution + union often means months of waiting for things to move, sometimes these things are held until the start of the next fiscal year due to lack of funding. If you aren’t given a specific timeline, keep pressing every few weeks until you get a concrete answer.

      Another route would be to talk to your union rep about your pay band and see if there are any solutions to explore there.

      Good luck!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Are you talking to your union rep? Sounds like you are working out of the classification for your job. The union would be interested in knowing that.

  31. urguncle*

    I actually wrote in because when I found out we’d be going back to the office a few days a week in what I now recognize was a complete panic attack. My letter didn’t get published and I’m thankful for that because I was out of my mind with anxiety. I was going to have to see a former boss who verbally attacked me and had lied about me to HR, my grandboss and the C-Suite execs. I left the team, abusive boss got moved to an Ops position and I thought she was getting managed out. And then nothing happened for 5 months.

    It’s still a secret, but abusive boss was being managed out! And they are leaving! I’m so relieved!

  32. Panda*

    I just need to vent here because I have been dealing with chronic undiagnosed pain for 8 months, my short term disability ran out 2 weeks ago, and I just found out my LTD claim got denied because they don’t see a need for me to be off work (I’m not even completely off, just reduced to .75 time). So now I need to figure out whether I take a pay cut, use up my vacation to make up the difference or just increase my pain medication and go back to full time. I don’t really have a question but would love advice or to swap stories with others who have gone through this

    2. WellRed*

      Who is “they”? The company? Where is the doctor in this? I’m sorry you’re dealing with all this.

      1. Panda*

        “They” is the insurance company. Cause pain is subjective, and the condition I have had for 8 months apparently doesn’t last more than a few weeks. (I don’t actually have an official diagnosis, the doctors have just eliminated everything else so that’s what I’m left with)

        1. KoiFeeder*

          The hell that is insurance. The letter they sent you has an appeal process, right? If your doctor is on your side with this, you can probably get their help to appeal. A lot of the time it feels like LTD claims are just rubber-stamp denied because the insurance assumes you don’t have the time, money, and energy to fight them so they can get away with it.

    3. IHaveTheOuch*

      Ooof. I was in a similar boat a year ago (undiagnosed chronic pain), but at least a year ago my work still had everyone working from home, so I had more wiggle room to deal with stuff. I also am a software developer, so it’s only really a problem when my pain makes it difficult to focus and/or I make stupid mistakes because I’m not all there. I abused my sick days a bit, but I never had to deal with any short-term disability stuff.
      By the time my bosses started asking people to come back to work, I had a surgery date booked, so they let me keep working from home until after I was recovered from surgery. Unfortunately, surgery only gave me a diagnosis, no relief, so I got myself a therapist who specializes in working with the chronically ill/disabled, and I’m working through an ADA accommodation process to get permission to work from home permanently. Until that gets worked out, my therapist got me a note to work .75 time and it has been such a relief to come home and have energy to maybe make dinner or go on a walk.
      I don’t know that I have too much advice, but that’s a story to swap, and we can commiserate together how much it sucks to hurt all the time and still have to work.

    4. IHaveTheOuch*

      Ooof. I’m happy to swap stories with you; I was in a similar boat at the beginning of the pandemic. Fortunately for me, I graduated and got hired full-time with the company I had been working for part-time, and they had us all working from home because of the pandemic, so I had a lot more space to try and figure things out. I got surgery and a diagnosis this past July, and after working through my denial of the situation, I’m working on getting some ADA accommodations to make working easier. This is also because I got a therapist who specializes in treating people with chronic illness and disability; he’s been a lifesaver in reminding me that just because I look sick doesn’t mean that I’m not and I shouldn’t worry about disappointing people or being too much trouble.
      I honestly would prefer to just not have to work as much, but everyone seems to think that you need to be dirt poor and living off of disability payments or you need to work 40+ hours a week. I just need some extra rest and extra time to clean my house and cook my food, and is it too much to ask to have some time leftover to do things that make me happy as well?

  33. A CAD Monkey*

    this weekend I will be submitting my resume to a company that i’ve wanted to work for for YEARS. while the position would technically be a step down, I don’t have some of the experience they want but hopefully the skills that i do have will be enough to bridge that gap. it will also be a change of industry. Cover letter will be the hardest thing for me to write as my introspection tends to be negative (imposter syndrome). fingers crossed this pans out.

  34. Gray Lay*

    Im very frustrated that my office, up til now great with covid, is now saying covid is over everyone go back to the office. They’ve even removed the hand sanitizers.

    Look at the numbers people! Covid is getting worse again!

    1. Terrible as the Dawn*

      I’m sorry to hear this! My office is a semi-independent offshoot of a larger org and while most of the org is still entirely WFH right now, we’ve been “back to normal” since late summer. I just started the conversation with my grandboss this week about record high numbers and new variants and how maybe we need to reconsider and follow the lead of our parent org. It sucks!

  35. No Longer Fencer*

    For those who’ve taken maternity leave via FMLA, what was the experience like, submitting forms/etc.? Any best practices/things to do/not do? My OB submitted forms and I’ve basically been told to confirm pregnancy status again 45 days before taking said leave. Wondering if I need to do anything in the meantime (e.g., gather more paperwork/etc.)

    1. Corporate Minion*

      I think you’re good.
      I dealt with STD so I needed to provide an estimated start date and how long I expected to be out. But no additional paperwork was required.

    2. Chauncy Gardener*

      If you’re in a state (I assume you’re in the US since FMLA) that also has family leave policies, you’ll need to start paperwork for that. I know MA has it and I think a few others as well (WA?)

  36. Time Tracking Woes*

    People who need to track your time for work: how do you do it? Is there a method or app that works well for you?

    My company is putting an increased focus on accurately recording time spent to various time codes. It doesn’t need to be “down to the minute,” but there are enough different time codes that it’s difficult to just guesstimate, and the bulk of my time is expected to be recorded in this way now.

      1. Time Tracking Woes*

        This may be the ticket… I finally counted and there are 30 of these new time codes. Plus there’s work we’ve historically always “tracked” (we all fudged it truthfully) that is tied to orders that all have codes generated after I do the majority of my work. It looks like I can track that and perhaps change the name later to match the new code. Thank you!!

    2. CTT*

      I have an excel spreadsheet broken into 6 minute increments and fill that in throughout the day. I do have technology options (I’m a lawyer, so we have time entry software that comes with timers), but this is what works best for me.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      If you find yourself needing to report 3 or more codes in a day, then I think the mental habits are more important than the particular tool. You just need to be disciplined enough that when you switch tasks, you stop for 30 seconds to record it. It also means that you can’t just respond to emails/slack messages/etc, about other codes on the fly – you need to decide in 30 seconds if a new message requires an immediate response, and if so, record that you switched codes. Otherwise, wait until the top of the hour.

      1. Time Tracking Woes*

        Hmmm, this is a good point. I frequently get interrupted by IMs or phone calls that usually aren’t urgent that drag me off task. It’s already happened this morning since I posted. I have email notifications off and just check my inbox periodically. I’ll experiment with silencing my phone and tweaking IM notifications and see if I run into any issues. Thanks!

        1. RagingADHD*

          Most of my work is cloud-based, so if I forget to note my start or end time, I can usually reconstruct it from my browser history or the edit history on a GDoc, that kind of thing.

          1. Time Tracking Woes*

            Most of my work is outside of cloud-systems/web browser, so while there are lots of logs, it’s not very easy to work with because nothing is centralized. For example, I may plan to make a changes to a certain machine or machines on the network. I usually log in to look at the current configuration, then work up my planned changes in a plain text document, then enter those changes into the machine(s). Then if there’s a project tied, I need to note that I’ve done the task in another system and likely send an email/IM since that first system doesn’t send notifications (eyeroll). Depending on how long it takes me to prepare those changes, I may log out of the machine or be automatically logged out if I stop interacting with it. I’ve tried noting start/stop times, but with calls and IMs frequently interrupting me it becomes a page of 5 minutes here, 10 minutes there, 30 minutes on that that I need to reconcile at the end of the day.

            Admittedly I also struggle with math and tend to make very basic mistakes like adding instead of subtracting, so it’s just been a mess for me when I’ve tried taking notes by hand and it doesn’t add up like I expected.

    4. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Pen and paper for me. While I’m working I tend to have a pad of paper or some scratch paper off to the side. I write down my “in” and “out” times as I’m working. Then at the end of the task or the end of the day, I enter it into the firm’s time tracking software.

      The software has a timer functionality like a stopwatch, using that doesn’t match my working style.

      1. pancakes*

        Me too. I’m otherwise pretty app-happy, but pen and paper (or similarly simple entries in the Notes app) is easiest for me to be consistent with for timekeeping. Otherwise I’ll tend to put it off, and that’s a bad habit to get into. One thing I do like about having to log into everything work-related via VPN and with Microsoft authentication is that I have a back-up record of date-stamped texts.

    5. cobb salad*

      I have to generally account for time on stuff but it doesn’t need to be specific or exactly accurate. I just write it down throughout the day or estimate generally where I was spending time

    6. Panda*

      I work in consulting where I need to bill time to specific clients, and I find timeboxing using a dedicated outlook calendar to work best. I plan out my week, then adjust on a daily basis based on what I actually do. At the end of the week I can look back and see where I spent my time.

      1. Time Tracking Woes*

        I do a lot of time blocking on my calendar already to try and stay on top of tasks/projects, though I never seem to accomplish as much as I expect at the start of the day! It definitely helps me see what I have been working on and stay on top of priorities. Or at least feel guilty on that one thing I’m always shoving off until next week….

  37. Lady Ann*

    This week I found out I didn’t get an internal promotion I applied for. This isn’t the biggest deal – nobody owes me a job – but I found out through the grapevine rather than being notified officially. Apparently the news was announced at the staff meeting of the department I applied to work in and then eventually trickled down to me. By the time I found out it seemed like literally everyone but me knew I didn’t the job.

    For context – I am a mid level manager, so I am already in a leadership position at my company. The job I applied for is basically a single step up and one I am well qualified for, so it’s not like it was a stretch and it was a given I wouldn’t be getting it. The job was at a different office in a different (but nearby) town, so while I wouldn’t have found out immediately when they announced it, the news was bound to reach me eventually.

    So two questions, am I justified in being upset that I wasn’t told? I know that ghosting job seekers is normal but for internal jobs it seems rude. And two, if so, do I say something? I was considering writing to the folks who interviewed me (politely) stating that I would have appreciated a heads up and that they might want to consider revisiting their process for internal hires, but would that be too much?

    1. J.B.*

      Yes you are justified in being upset. For an internal candidate that is especially crappy.

      I wouldn’t write them but would start seeking roles elsewhere.

    2. Purple Cat*

      IMO you are absolutely justified in being upset.
      That being said, I don’t think the interviewers are the ones you should go after. I assume there was an HR contact that facilitated the process? That’s the one I would reach out to.

      1. Jaybee*

        Agreed, at most normally functioning companies there would be an HR contact who should have told you.

    3. Time Tracking Woes*

      I’m so sorry you found out this way. They absolutely should’ve contacted you to let you know. Someone in HR should’ve reached out at least, but frankly I would’ve expected the hiring manager to at least reach out to you as well given your level within the company. I think I would at least reach out to HR and find out if that is standard procedure or if someone just dropped the ball on notifying you. If that’s the procedure then I would absolutely push back, but if it’s just a mistake then it’s important for them to know what happened so they can prevent it happening to another candidate.

      Years ago at an old job, I learned I didn’t get an internal promotion via the boss effectively announcing it in our weekly staff meeting. He said that a selection had been made and they just needed to inform a few unsuccessful candidates before they announced who the hire was. Well no one had told me anything yet, so it wasn’t hard to figure out, and it was easy to see that my coworkers all figured it out too as we sat there. Then I had to sit through the rest of the meeting only to be pulled me aside afterwards to learn I didn’t get the job. As if I hadn’t figured it out already. A few months later, I sat through another staff meeting where that same boss slammed two internal candidates for a supervisor position by name as being not good enough for the position as explanation for why they were opening it externally. One candidate was from another office, the other was from our office, but out that day so not in the meeting. Both highly regarded and qualified individuals who would’ve excelled, in my opinion. And this boss was surprised when I didn’t apply for any future openings in that office after that experience. I share this because it was just “how things worked” under that boss. In retrospect, I’m glad I didn’t get the promotion because I wouldn’t have wanted to work any closer with that man or tie myself down any further to that job. Needing to make more money spurred me to change careers and employers, all for the better.

  38. Granger Chase*

    Any advice for how to help a coworker who has a terminally ill spouse? My coworker’s spouse has been sick for several years, but they were just told this week by the doctors that their spouse is no longer responding to treatment and the illness has spread. I don’t know the exact timeline they were given, but unfortunately I don’t expect it would be more than 3-6 months based on the type of illness.
    Besides offering to cover our in-office duties so my coworker can spend as much time working from home as possible & handling some of their more difficult duties that I am cross trained on, what else would you recommend? We are peers and have been working together for a year. I do not have any authority over the schedule or vacation time, but I know our manager would be happy to allow coworker to WFH as often as they need if I am on board with handling the in office coverage.
    Would it be over stepping to offer any help outside of work as well? Such as offering to cook a couple meals a week for them so they don’t have to worry about dinner? I know my coworker’s parents have been helping out a lot with the kids, but I feel bad not doing anything when I can’t even imagine how difficult this situation must be for their family.

    1. Midwest Manager*

      If you’re close with the coworker, do make the offer to help outside of work! If you’re sincere, make sure they know that. Even if it’s making a grocery run or bringing over a meal, small things during this stressful time can make a world of difference. They may not take you up on it, but the offer will be appreciated.

      My spouse’s coworker did something similar when I was laid up for an extended period of time, and they ended up becoming close family friends after the crisis had passed. The value of kindness and normalcy cannot be understated during such upheaval.

    2. Ali + Nino*

      At my last job, when a colleague suddenly lost an immediate family member, our boss sent (on behalf of the office) a generous gift card for meal delivery (e.g. GrubHub). Gives the person one less thing to think about while going through this turmoil, while allowing them to choose what they want to eat and when to use it.

      1. StellaBella*

        +1 to your user name I just read the book by Kurban Said! Highly recommend it!

        For a reply for Granger Chase, helping outside of work, dropping off groceries, a gift card, all would likely be appreciated. Covering for them as the WFH is also a great idea.

    3. Anono-me*

      Tell both your boss and your coworker that you are AOK with taking the office stuff & the cross trained stuff. (That way you coworker doesn’t worry that you might be resentful.

      For out of the office help, you might want to consider helping with the yardwork and snow removal. These are both big chores that are hard to do when caring for someone. (Hard to hear a call for assistance outside with power tools on.) Theses are also chores that are less intimate since they are outside.

      As far as meals go, if you know 100% that you can cook foods that meet any dietary restrictions, a couple of heat and eat meals like lasagna or quiche might be useful.

  39. Midwest Manager*

    Any advice on how to deal with a direct report who is suddenly not performing?

    We returned to the office in a hybrid scheme in August, and since that switch this employee has become unreliable, hard to reach, and frequently not sticking to their agreed schedule of remote/in-person. This attendance change has then begun to highlight some other issues with accuracy and attention to detail that have been present from the beginning but were fixable when we were all working together and attendance was better.

    I’ve asked the employee directly what’s going on and pointed out these issues I’ve been seeing. They became defensive and seemed surprised that I thought there was a problem. Every example that I brought to them of the issues was hand-waived or an excuse was given about what “actually happened,” completely mansplained and condescending. The employee then ended the meeting by asking for a raise. (SMH) I’ve heard from people above me that work directly with this person that they are making plans to change to part-time work to begin a graduate program. The role they have is NOT part-time, and this hasn’t been discussed with me directly.

    I’m running out of ideas short of forcing a PIP. Any suggestions?

    1. HolidayAmoeba*

      Let them know that their work quality and output isn’t acceptable and let them know if I doesn’t get back to X by Y, then they are looking at a PIP. If there are issues that are truly out of their control, they need to be communicating that so it can be addressed. If it is lazy excuses or avoidable issues, call them to task about it.

      1. BRR*

        This. Essentially you need to do a pre-PIP at this point. Be very direct and clear that their job is in danger. Your wording should include “if this does not improve, the company will need to terminate your employment.” Asking for a raise after being told there are quality of work issues is so out of touch though, I’d prepare yourself for the very real possibility this will not get better.

        As this person’s manager I think you’re well within your right to ask about the part-time thing as well.

        1. Midwest Manager*

          I did actually ask them about the p/t thing and was again brushed off “oh, I was just making conversation with them” – which tbh doesn’t track well knowing who these folks are and their roles in the department. Spidey-sense is tingling that something just isn’t quite right with all of this.

          Overall I love being a manager, but this part of it really sucks.

          1. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

            Are they trying to skip over you and talk to someone above you to get what they want because they know you won’t approve it?

        2. Chauncy Gardener*

          This. Pre-PIP and then rapidly segue into PIP-land. He’s totally taking advantage of the situation at this point, I think.

    2. Annony*

      I think you are at the point where a PIP is needed. If you clearly communicated the issues and they still don’t see it as a problem, I don’t know another way for them to see it as serious.

    3. Observer*

      I think you are in PIP territory. Don’t let him “explain: things. Simply state (and restate as necessary) what happened and what you need to have happen, whether he likes it or not.

  40. SadPanda*

    A lot of you gave me feedback and advice about how to deal with my supervisor who has been a complete terror since she took over a few months ago. Prior to her, I was a top performer and now I’m not even allowed to send emails to clients without them being reviewed to ensure they are “professional enough”.
    I got a verbal job offer elsewhere with a step up in pay and responsibility and I am cautiously optimistic until I get the written offer. Based on the scuttlebutt I am hearing, by February, this supervisor will have 80% turnover by then when factoring those who have already announced they are leaving/transferring and those who like myself are on the way out, but keeping it quiet until things are firmed up. I am still interviewing until I get a firm offer with this org, but things are looking up.
    Thank you all for your advice and support.

    1. Corporate Minion*

      I’m so glad you are getting out! That sounds awful. Maybe upper management will notice the fallout and do something.

    2. irene adler*

      Good for you in taking concrete action on improving your situation!
      Life is too short to put up with unreasonable bosses. Or unreasonable people, either.

      Good luck with the verbal job offer- hope it materializes into everything you desire in a job.

    3. StellaBella*

      Good for you. If you have a real HR team and exit interview process, explain this 80% thing clearly and the email thing too as two examples of why you are leaving and note the comparison that prior to the manager you were a top performer now you have to have emails read because they are a micromanaging dolt that is costing the firm money (in trying to replace people and all the turnover).

    5. Chauncy Gardener*

      Good for you and I hope the written offer comes through!! And karma is a b**h for your soon to be former supervisor. Bwahahaha

  41. Observer*

    Has anyone been following the lunacy at better dot com?

    How he fired people was BAD. His apology would not have been great, but ok. Except that he also sent out some REALLY bad emails before and alongside that apology.

    Given that the recording of the firing leaked, which is why he was forced to apologize how did he not realize that those emails were also going to hit the public?

    I’m unfortunately used to Execs at this level being pretty awful as people, but I find this level of stupidity pretty unusual.

    Aaaaand. It looks like it’s come back to bite him. Not only did a bunch of top execs resign over this mess. The CEO is going to “step back” and “take some time” over this.

    2. HolidayAmoeba*

      What a fustercluck. Not to mention they are pushing to go public and this can turn into a WeWork level failure. Person with good ideas and gets enough support and smart people around them to build into a decent sized business. But it then falls apart quickly because the person at the center is nuts and success makes them think they are infallible. So they drive the business into the ground faster than they built it up.

      1. pancakes*

        Both companies got huge cash infusions from SoftBank. The excerpts of emails from the Better CEO that I’ve seen in a couple emails do not suggest he’s a good leader or good investment. To the contrary, he seems like a tempestuous, erratic mess with a sketchy history. Everyone involved in putting together valuations for companies like these has a lot to answer for, but somehow it never comes to pass.

        1. Fran Fine*

          Agreed.

          This company is going to tank with the current CEO in charge. He has serious problems and is completely unprofessional.

        2. Chauncy Gardener*

          He seems like a total narcissistic clod. Who the heck DOES stuff like this??
          And I couldn’t agree more – who is doing these valuations and why aren’t they being held accountable for these huge misses?

    3. Katt*

      I saw an article on CBC the other day! Good Lord, what an insane mess that was. I can’t believe he thought that was a good idea. Why wouldn’t you get the managers to tell the employees themselves?? Like… why? And the emails he sent after were, like you said, really bad.

    4. Annony*

      I think it is less that he didn’t realize it could be leaked and more that he really doesn’t understand why he looks bad.

      1. Observer*

        I suppose that’s possible. But again, it’s a pretty astounding level of stupidity when what’s in your so called apology is directly contradicted by the emails you are sending out in the same time frame. Does he think that people can’t read?

      2. Filosofickle*

        Agreed. He thought it was okay to call them a bunch of dumb dolphins and say they were embarrassing him. What a glass bowl.

    5. WellRed*

      Late to this but he’s apparently now “taking some time off.” Haha! Also read an article in which one of the fired, after being fired and taking several days to obtain needed info, also received a package with trophy, certificate and company shirt. WTF.

  42. Siege (The other one)*

    Just got offered an internal promotion to another team!! I wasn’t expecting to get it they said I interviewed really well. I even negotiated a higher salary!

      1. Siege (The other one)*

        Thank you all!! It is, it’s moving from entry level into a career direction I’ve wanted to move towards for awhile.

  43. Cendol*

    I just wanted to say, I never in my life thought we would get an update to the cheap-ass rolls saga, and this has been an amazing week on AAM.

    3. DEJ*

      I was grocery shopping the other day and picked up a small pack of Hawaiian rolls just so I can look at them at laugh about all this.

  44. Corporate Minion*

    There has been a complete reorganization at my company, top to bottom-merged with another company. During this time, a pretty high number of people (from all depts) have resigned to move onto other opportunities. This isn’t surprising. Many of us were not sure we would continue to be employed. In the last 4 weeks or so, people leave have been sending Company Wide emails saying goodbye and thanks for all the fish, thanks everyone, find me on LI, etc.

    This is weird, right? I have never worked with or even heard of most of these people. It just seem SO odd to send a Company Wide email saying its your last day.

    1. Hannah Hopkins*

      I understand the general spirit of it, but yes, sending to the entire company (including people you’ve never interacted with) is weird. It would be much more appropriate for them to send it to just their address book or contacts.

    2. ThatGirl*

      I’ve definitely seen it done, but I think those kinds of emails are better targeted to specific departments or teams.

      1. allathian*

        Yeah, I agree. In my org, some employees who are retiring have posted a goodbye blog post on our intranet, but I haven’t seen this happen with employees who are going elsewhere.

    3. eisa*

      I think it’s fine, actually.
      Apparently, a lot of companies would never voluntarily inform their employees that Jane left for greener pastures, or Kathy was let go. (some even going to mindboggling lengths to hide it .. wasn’t there once a story here where LW learned from her/his customers(!) that Louise was no longer working for Teapots Inc., however Teapots Inc. had someone sending emails under Louise’s name to pretend she was still there ?)
      I am always of the mindset that more information is better than less information.
      If the information that Fergus is leaving is of some interest to you, all the better.
      Doing Shift-Del on the corresponding emails from Wakeen, Joanne, and Tom takes no time at all.
      (and I’ll go out on a limb to say : if you are working, as you seem to be, in a not-small company, these “Ciao, Amigos” mails are probably far from the only “one glimpse, Shift-Del” ones you receive !)

    4. Anonymous Hippo*

      What kind of I.T. department allows just anyone to send company wide emails? That’s so bizarre to me. Everywhere I’ve worked if you want a company-wide mailing you have to submit it to I.T. or H.R. in order to get it out.

      So yes, this seems weird. Sounds a little flouncy.

  45. Katt*

    How do you cope with a setback at work? It’s not a huge deal, but my work did this like professional development course and I failed the test at the end. You don’t need a passing score unless you are getting a certification, but I struggled greatly with the format of the course and was having a bad day which sounds like an excuse, but… My manager said it’s fine, but I am still worrying. I still learned a lot and I have the course materials that I can refresh myself on.

    On a similar note… I have been struggling with insane anxiety for the past several months which has caused me some health problems. My doctor actually recently prescribed me medication. The anxiety has impacted my work performance I think, and although people seem to think I’m doing fine, I have been open with a few people (including my supervisor). I don’t know what/if I should tell people? It’s worth noting this is a public sector organization that seems pretty open about mental health, but like, I don’t want them to think I’m a slacker, I am so good at what I do, but lately… God. The resurgence of the pandemic is NOT helping. At least Christmas holidays are coming up. Thoughts?

    1. fueled by coffee*

      1. You are not a ‘slacker’ for having anxiety. We’re in a freaking pandemic; EVERYONE is struggling to cope.

      2. That said, I don’t think you’re obligated to disclose anxiety if you’re concerned about the politics, but I do think it might be worth it to say that you’re dealing with a medical condition (in the sort of “non-covid related, non-life threatening, but something I need to take care of”) kind of way (because you are! Anxiety is medical! Your coworkers/employers don’t need to know all the details). If you’re feeling more anxious because you’re worried that people think you’re not performing at your best, you might feel better if you know that your coworkers know that there’s a reason for this.

      3. Bummer about the professional development course. But it’s in the past now, your manager says it doesn’t matter, and you have the course materials if you do end up needing the information that was covered in the future. I don’t know if this is the kind of thing you can re-do in the future (or if it doesn’t really matter since you don’t need the certification), but either way, people perform poorly on tests sometimes. It happens. Buy some ice cream, watch some crappy TV, and treat this the same way you would have treated getting a lousy grade on an exam in school. It’s tough in the moment, but life will move on, and you’ll have more opportunities in the future to perform at the level you want to be performing at. Hang in there – the holidays are coming up!

  46. Nuke*

    Can an employer suddenly introduce requirements for full HSA funding? My insurance kind of sucks ($2,800 deductible, but has an HSA) and my employer keeps adding things we have to do get full funding from their side like get a physical, etc. This year they suddenly required us to get a blood test for a “biometric scan” or they will only give us a fraction of what they normally contribute to the HSA. tldr is I have a medical condition that would make this extremely, extremely difficult to do, and I was told there would be “absolutely no exemptions” for the medical test.

    Just wondering if anyone else has dealt with employers touting “wellness” while adding more and more hoops to jump through to get money we were given before with no issue. In the email they sent out, they kind of implied that it’s super easy to get doctor’s appointments now (it’s not) because “things are going back to normal” (no not really).

    1. Ashley*

      For most public jobs the bar for what is legal is pretty low so as long as they don’t use it to discriminate illegally I would guess they could, but it just seems gross. (And honestly I wouldn’t trust them not to use it improperly.) Honestly I would be trying to get on my partners if I could or just go with lower HSA funding while job searching for a job at a less invasive company.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      If you’re talking about how much the employer is matching your own contribution to the HSA, then I think they can put requirements on that until the cows come home. They’re not actually required to match anything at all. If they’re interfering with YOUR contributions to the HSA, that would be very concerning and definitely not okay.

      1. Nuke*

        I figured they could do whatever they wanted.. which is a bummer. I just wonder about the whole “no exemptions for a medical condition” thing. Since I know employers can’t require medical exams unless it’s like, required for the job or whatever, but this isn’t required to keep my job, just for the HSA funding. I tried looking up more info but nothing seems to really discuss it! Thanks for the reply :) And yeah they’re not touching MY contribution at all which is uh, nice lol. My job is actually really great with everything but this weird stuff they only recently started doing…

    3. Midwest Manager*

      This sounds to me like the company is trying to cut back on the money they are forking over for healthcare coverage. Using a HDHP plan, and putting restrictions on the employer-funded portion of the HSA. They’re hoping people fail to do these things so they pay less in the end.

      I’d personally start looking around at other ways they’ve cut costs to see if there’s evidence of financial instability. Cutting back on benefits offered is a pretty big flag, IMO.

      1. Nuke*

        What’s weird is that we’ve actually had a big boom in business, didn’t lay off a single person due to the pandemic (because almost everyone was able to go home), and are actually looking to hire a bunch more people for a couple departments in a bit. We’re related to healthcare ourselves. I can’t help but wonder if it was odd pressure from the insurance people themselves, as we changed our provider a year back and they’re ALSO pushing all this bonkers “wellness” crap with a weird point system with stupid “activities” to complete (like talking to a Health Coach(tm) a billion times) to get more HSA credit. Who knows tbh, but it’s definitely not related to not having money. We have a preeeetty sizable contract…

        1. HoundMom*

          Is your carrier UHC? They offer a program where they contribute the employer’s portion of the health savings account if the employees/covered spouses/DPs do certain things like take a health risk assessment, speak to a coach, walk a certain amount of steps. They offer lower premiums for that plan.

    4. HolidayAmoeba*

      We are insure through my husband and every year there are hoops or else they reduce their match. It’s slog every year.

    5. Anonymous Hippo*

      I’ve never had a company fully fund an HSA, so it doesn’t seem unusual to me. Usually it’s just a partial (like 500-1000) so giving extra by doing some health related stuff seems ok to me.

  47. Mary Anne Spier*

    Anyone else have that coworker who feels the need to comment on/touch everything on your desk when they come by? I have this one coworker who I like but whenever she comes in she has to pick up anything I have sitting here and say, “ooooh, what’s this?” “You have a Mary Poppins coffee mug?!” “What are you doing with this yellow paper?”

    Dude, please just ask me/tell me what it is you came in here to ask me/tell me. You don’t need to pick up/touch/ask about every object I have. It’s to the point where I see her coming and I kick myself for having anything remotely interesting sitting here because I just know it’s coming and for some reason (this could be a big flaw in my personality) I get extra annoyed when someone already does something that annoys me and I can predict that it’s coming.

    This is a minor gripe, I know. Just needed to get it out. ;)

      1. Hlao-roo*

        Are you referring to the “my disgusting boss touches and chews on everything on my desk” letter or a different one?

        1. Mary Anne Spier*

          This isn’t about being disgusting. It’s more… nosy? Maybe I just mind my own business more than most. I just don’t feel the need to pick up things that belong to other people and pester them about them.

    2. Corporate Minion*

      My spouse keeps random/fun stuff at his desk for these people. He arranges them on the desk so they’re ‘upfront’ and naturally the first thing people see and play with

    3. OyHiOh*

      I have an art piece on my desk that I created, and which people literally, actually go out of their way to pet. It’s a glass and origami sculpture titled George and is eye catching enough that sometimes, people walk into my office for no reason other than to pet George and ask about the piece. I have a lot of affection for George and also have a spoken word performance about the piece and how I came to title it George. Since I’ve been in art galleries and museums since childhood, it seems weird to me that people touch art, but I kinda get why it comes up with this one.

      But no, nobody picks up/comments on anything else on my desk, and I have some other pretty interesting objects in view when you come through the door. I think your co worker is being weird and I don’t think it’s a you problem at all.

    4. Badger*

      To be less annoyed in the future I would just assume she is a distractable person (as am I) and say something directly. “Hi X, I’m quick to lose my focus so when you come around, can you tell me what it’s about? [When we go into chatting about what’s on my desk it gets me out of work mode which is hard to get back into].”
      Or whatever white lie make sense to you.

      You can of course also be more direct.” Hey can you please not touch that”, which you might need to repeat a few times until she gets that it’s about the whole desk.

      But don’t seethe about something that’s so easily corrected.

    5. Chauncy Gardener*

      Ummmm. We’re in a pandemic and she’s TOUCHING stuff on your desk? I would whip out the Lysol wipes right in front of her and wipe down anything she touched while giving her a wane, polite smile

  49. I got a raise, and now there's drama*

    An aside question, in the state of GA, are you entitled to know what your coworkers make? I know we have a legally protected right to discuss amongst ourselves, but am I entitled to see the payscale for the whole company?

    I had made a case a few weeks ago for a 25% pay raise. I had well though out, concrete bullets points as to why I should make that much more.
    Yesterday the bosses agreed that I did deserve the 25% raise, but since business is still down compared to 2019, they couldn’t offer that. They offered 12.5%, which was the minimum to get me to stop looking for other jobs.
    Well the rest of the company got 5%. I was asked not to tell anyone but my husband. Well I knew that was not a legally enforceable request, but I didn’t call them on it. Apparently they feared there would be a mass resignation? But everyone with whom I had discussed salary felt we were ALL being underpaid, but me more so than anyone else.
    I did tell my husband that I got a larger raise than he did, and he is beyond upset. And I get it. I told him that he needed to be the one to make the case to bosses for his own raise. But he thinks it shouldn’t be on all of us workers to ensure that there is pay equity. It shouldn’t, I agree, but sometimes you need to advocate for yourself.

    Ugh. I like my raise, but it sucks that it made my husband so upset.

    1. Gracely*

      All I know is that if you’re both employed by the same company, I would think really hard before causing problems, because you don’t want to *both* be out of a job if it goes sideways and they start looking for someone to blame.

      Otherwise, yeah, it sucks that the others including your husband got a lower raise, but at least they got a raise?

      1. I got a raise, and now there's drama*

        I’m not causing trouble. We did have another longtime employee leave in June, and it took about 3 weeks before bosses started wanting him to come back. And honestly, he had less output than my husband, and certainly less than me.

    2. Observer*

      You’re not entitled to know what others make, but you ARE entitled to ask anyone and tell anyone you want.

  50. NYPD Detective Robert Goren*

    Longtime lurker, first time question-asker. This is a bit time-sensitive, so I’m hoping someone can help :)

    To make a long story short, I’ve been moving through an interview process for a Llama Groomer position for the past few months. Within that time, I’ve completed a one-way interview, a virtual interview, and an in-person meeting (to review an assessment I’d completed). (Note: I was supposed to meet the Head Groomer during the in-person meeting, but he had a work conflict come up and I never ended up seeing them.) When I emailed to follow up on the position after Thanksgiving, my would-be Groomer Lead let me know that, while it’s wasn’t final, they “began the hiring process” with another candidate. Fair enough — no harm, no foul.

    When I followed up to ask for feedback, they stated that the reason they started going with the other candidate was about their different qualifications and experience. The Lead then threw a series of curveballs: they said 1) that things were actually “in flux” with the other candidate, 2) that they felt I would be a great Groomer for them, and 3) that they wanted me to come in early next week to meet the Head Groomer (if I still wanted the job).

    I’ve never gone through an interview process where this has happened. Has anyone had experience with a similar situation? If any hiring managers are reading this, what do you think? I have nothing to lose by going to this meeting, but I’m slightly worried about why they’re doubling back away from the other candidate. I’m also wondering if the Lead wants me to meet the Head Groomer just to be charismatic and sway them away from the other candidate. (I don’t know if the Head was able to meet them in person.)

    Thank you!

    1. Gracely*

      I would go; you could even ask if there are issues with the other candidate, and maybe find out why they’re trying to meet with you. It’s possible the other candidate changed their mind or withdrew, and that’s why they’ve come back to you. Or maybe they know they’ll have a second position opening up soon? It doesn’t have to be a bad reason.

      I mean, obviously remember that you’re interviewing them, too, and keep an eye out for obvious red flags, but coming back to you isn’t a red flag in and of itself.

      1. Chauncy Gardener*

        Agree with Gracely all the way. So many things are possible here. Just keep on interviewing them and making sure it feels like a good fit for you.

    2. LovelySeven*

      I wouldn’t assume that “in flux” means they’re changing their mind on the other candidate. It could mean that they had an offer out to that candidate but the candidate has turned them down/is negotiating hard/their timeline doesn’t work/is suddenly moving out of the country/anything. It sounds like they want to pick up from where you were in the process and meet the Head Groomer like originally planned.

    3. Annony*

      Most likely the other candidate didn’t say yes. Maybe they outright said no, asked for a lot of time to think or maybe they countered really high and the company isn’t sure they will take the final offer or they expressed concerns about things that can’t be changed. If you are their second choice, it makes sense to have you meet with the head groomer so that they can move quickly if their first choice doesn’t work out. I don’t think it is necessarily concerning at this point. You can always ask what happened if they end up making an offer.

    4. Midwest Manager*

      I’ve been a hiring manager in this situation. The most likely scenario is that the other candidate rejected the offer or negotiations are not going well with them (reasons for this are varied and should not be considered red flags). You’re their second favorite candidate, it’s worth making the meeting and do your best to impress Head Groomer!

      Good luck!

      1. Midwest Manager*

        I’ll also add that I’ve had my top candidate accept, then rescind just 2 days later for a better offer, so I had to move on to No. 2. There’s no way to read anything into this org’s messaging on this besides the fact that they’re still interested in you!

        1. NYPD Detective Robert Goren*

          Thanks everyone!

          Turn of events: I received another email from the would-be Lead this morning where he reiterated that he wanted me to come in and that “things have changed rapidly with the process.” He also repeated that he’s hoping I’ll come in and meet the Head Groomer. Question: does it make sense to ask what happened in my response or to wait to ask in person?

          A part of me stings a little bit in that it seems more and more like I’m the second choice, but I’m trying to let the practical part of my mind take over and not let that dissuade me.

          1. Zephy*

            Even if you are a second choice, you are still a choice! I’d wait to ask in-person, though. Good luck, I hope it works out for you!

          2. Midwest Manager*

            +1 to Zephy’s comment

            I’ve had my entire slate of first-round candidates go south, and found the most amazing employee in the second-tier group of candidates. If the process had worked with one of that first round, I never would have even interviewed this person. They’ve been on my team now for 5 years and is one of my top performers.

            Hiring people is a difficult and high-pressure task. Decisions need to be made with very little information. Don’t feel bad about being second choice in any hiring situation. The fact that they thought well enough of you to keep in touch says more than being second in line.

            I recommend not asking what happened with the other candidate – it could paint you in a poor light. If you do get the offer and start working, you may learn what happened later on – or you may not. Does it really matter?

          3. PollyQ*

            I would bet that this kind of situation is actually pretty common, but that this company is being more transparent with you than most, and that’s why it seems a little weird to you. I’d definitely go in & meet with them, and I’d wait until then to ask what’s up with the first candidate.

          4. Miss Pantalones En Fuego*

            I don’t think I’d ask what happened with the other person. They might just tell you but you should focus on you and what you offer. And second choice is better than outright rejected!

          5. Chauncy Gardener*

            This is so, so common. Please don’t let your ego get involved here. There are so many possible variables. It could be that the person who was their original #1 turned about to be a weirdo psycho killer once they checked their references, so not so #1 material now! The important thing is that you keep interviewing the company to make sure it’s a good fit for you

  51. Letmedomyjob*

    I’ve not been given the opportunity to do/the tech access for/the training for (that I desperately want to grow my skills) the second listed job duty on the job description I was hired under. I approached a person with this access and that does this duty as well for a possibility of job shadowing. I was told ‘you’re just trying to take my job’. What should I do?

    1. Hannah Hopkins*

      I would explain that it was listed in your own job description, and you’d like to ensure you’re fulfilling what your employer expects of you. Hopefully explaining that it is already in your existing job description will show that person that you are not trying to take their job, just do your own. You don’t need to appease them, but I’m sure it would make the experience more pleasant if you do end up shadowing/training with this person. That said, their response was unprofessional, and you wouldn’t be out of line going over their head if they are uncooperative.

      1. letmedomyjob*

        Thanks, I agree. I did tell them it was part of mine and another recent hires job description and I think because we are unionized and they aren’t they are worried. We’ve had some staffing changes recently which has made people think they have more authority/more brave and outspoken and I haven’t had any sort of goal review in the last 2 years because of the pandemic. Ironically they know I am interviewing for other positions and are supportive of it. I just think they don’t want to disturb the relationship they have with the defensive work hoarder.

      2. letmedomyjob*

        I will try your wording though, since I’ve had less verbal in person communication during the pandemic I feel like my verbal dexterity and vocabulary have been shrinking. Thank you.

    2. pancakes*

      That was a weird and inappropriate response on their part, but I’m wondering why your approach was to take it upon yourself to ask a peer if you could shadow them rather than approach your manager or boss about the possibility of shadowing someone, or getting the training you need in some other, more direct way? It seems important to have their support.

      1. letmedomyjob*

        Mgmt wouldn’t give me access if there’s no work and the work is being hoarded by this one person who is also in charge of submitting the access documents on my behalf.

        My old mgr was a micromanager who would monitor what questions I would ask during all staff meetings then tell me not to ask questions and watch the outdoor maintenance contractors from our lunch room windows to make sure they were doing there job correctly to their standards. I have a new manager temporarily now because old mgr went on leave (not surprised) but I have no clue when old micromanager will return, there is no transparency because it likely involves health information.

        If my job description was followed correctly I should have been permitted access upon onboarding me (I know this because I worked in the new hire processing section before) by submitting a specific form that would have provided me login information immediately. Mgmt has no idea about these processes and solely relies on the work hoarder to do things properly without question which has left me despondent and feeling tricked by the job description.

        1. pancakes*

          Oof, that is terrible. Have you talked to the new manager about all this? It seems like the ideal time, with the old one out of the picture temporarily. See if you can schedule a meeting with them to talk about training. If they’re not cooperative either, I suppose it’s time to reach out to your union rep.

          1. letmedomyjob*

            New mgr relies on work hoarder for guidance as he’s brand new to our type of work and has only been in position for 2 months. Will try to broach things with him in the meantime but he didn’t even feel comfortable being my reference yet for an interview so he doesn’t feel comfortable making this change either. I’ll try my jr boss and then union rep if not given hope.

            1. pancakes*

              Supporting you for training that’s in your job description seems like a lesser request than asking him to be a reference after 2 months. (That’s not to say I think you did something wrong by asking him for a reference; just that I can see where he’s coming from on that, but can’t see a good reason why he wouldn’t want you to get training). Good luck!

    3. eisa*

      (In this answer, I also take into account your subsequent comments in this thread.)

      Asking your coworker and being unwilling to accept his refusal was the wrong move.
      He would make himself culpable if he shared his access with you : it goes against all sorts of best practice regarding security, accountability ..
      If he feels that doing the task in question gives him increased job security, it is against his own best interest to share the task with you, unless directed by his superiors.

      TL;DR If the company wanted you to have access / let you do this task, they would give you access and tell you to do this task.
      Indicating your interest/willingness to your supervisor is all you can really do.
      As for “Job description when hired Actual scope of work you do”, that is very, very common.

  52. Are places really still drug testing?!*

    I’m embarking on a job search. I live in a state with legal recreational cannabis, so I’m curious when I see notices that companies will drug test. What exactly are they testing for? Could I potentially get thrown out of the running because I drank a cannabis seltzer over the weekend? I’m applying to jobs that don’t involve operating heavy machinery or anything like that.

    1. Ashley*

      Because cannabis is illegal federally employers and disqualify you even if it is legal in your state. There was a ruling out of Colorado on this several years ago.
      As to what employers are screening for I think it varies. Most people I know try and just stay clean for awhile until they land the new job.

        1. pancakes*

          Why not do some research on specific employers you’re applying to and general trends in your area? I’ve seen quite a few articles about this over the past year or so. Amazon, for example, announced they were going to stop testing for cannabis metabolites last June.

          1. pancakes*

            I should add, if you happen to be in NY State, you’ll want to familiarize yourself with Labor Law 201-D. There’s a fact sheet about it put out by the state Department of Labor called “Adult Use Cannabis and the Workplace.”

          2. Are places really still drug testing?!*

            The rub in this new job search is that I want a remote position, so I’m looking nationwide rather than locally. I’ve worked in one industry for about a decade, and while every employer has claimed to be a drug-free workplace and that they *could* test randomly, they never have.

            1. pancakes*

              Got it, that does complicate the search a bit. The plus is that any employer big enough to have a national or multinational presence probably has its policies in writing someplace online, and hopefully some practical commentary from current employees someplace too.

            2. pancakes*

              I want to add, I finished re-reading the CNN Business article from June I went back to in order to double-check about Amazon (“Amazon ditched cannabis testing, and more employers will likely follow”), and it also mentions that since 2017, “Courts in states such as Arizona, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania have upheld employees’ rights to access cannabis while off the job . . .” It’s a pretty informative article with lots of links to follow up on. Leafly is also generally a good source of info.

    2. OyHiOh*

      In addition to what Ashley said above, if the companies you apply to have federal contracts – and this could be as simple as contracts providing meeting space for certain types of meetings – they must be “drug free” and have a record for testing that.

      If you live in a state with legal recreational cannabis, you need to either screen companies from your drug search that have such testing requirements, or not indulge in the recreational substances of your choosing.

      Myself personally, I think “drug free” should apply to tobacco, caffeine, and alcohol as well, and not in the sense of don’t smoke in the building/don’t show up drunk, but in the sense of “if these substances show up in a blood/urine test, consequences may extend to firing.” Drugs are drugs! But that’s puritanical on my part, just as much as it’s puritanical to levy judgement on other substances people use in their free time, that don’t impact their work or public health.

      1. No Tribble At All*

        Out of curiosity, why are you opposed to caffeine? I think 80% of the workforce would be useless if we weren’t allowed any caffeine.

          1. ThatGirl*

            so? caffeine is not dangerous in any normal amount, who cares? taking too much tylenol is worse for you than too much coffee.

          2. pancakes*

            I drink less coffee than I used to, but even at my peak of 4 or 5 per day, the worst consequences I ever suffered from suddenly going without it was a mild headache. People who don’t drink coffee get those too.

        2. OyHiOh*

          It affects brain chemistry and physiology in unique ways, the same as any other drug.

          I drank coffee daily for decades. Caffeine didn’t seem to bother me, ever. Out of the blue last summer, it started affecting my sleep in ways that made it harder to wake up refreshed. Dropped coffee from my daily routine, and the sleep issues went away. Caffeine is a drug, just like alcohol and tobacco, only much more socially acceptable.

          1. Lyudie*

            So because you became sensitive to caffeine, it should be banned from all workplaces? That’s a bit much isn’t?

          2. Elizabeth West*

            I’m sorry you had an issue with it, but that’s not anyone else’s problem. I will not give up my tea and biccies break!

          3. pancakes*

            This is odd reasoning. There are all sorts of things that affect people’s brain chemistry (stress and cortisol, for example) or interfere with sleep (car alarms or other neighborhood noise, a partner who snores, etc.). It would be incredibly intrusive and paternalistic for employers to monitor people’s bodies and sleep habits in the way you seem to favor.

          4. RagingADHD*

            So, we’re banning chocolate, sugar, aromatherapy, electrolytes, magnesium, melatonin and probiotics, too? They all affect your brain & body chemistry. They can all affect your mood and your sleep.

            Everything you consume affects your body and mind. Everything — because that’s what eating is.

      2. fueled by coffee*

        Unless you’re working for Brigham Young or an LDS church (i.e., religious institutions where it’s expected that employers follow a religious code), I can’t imagine why you would test for legal substances. The cannabis issue is that it’s still federally illegal.

        (I agree with you that routine drug testing in general is an overreach for most employers, especially when people’s social habits outside of work hours are not affecting their job performance… but like, there’s a clear legal boundary between cocaine and caffeine. Addiction is a complicated medical issue that is not appropriately handled by our current legal code, but I can understand why an employer would expect that employees are not using cocaine – even if I disagree with this kind of drug testing – while still finding it unreasonable for them to monitor their alcohol or coffee consumption habits.)

        1. Squidhead*

          Many places *do* test for drugs that are legal but have the potential for abuse. Opiates, benzodiazepines, and amphetamines all have legitimate, prescribed medical purposes and are also abused by some people. The process my hospital uses is the independent lab tests you, the lab calls to say “hey, we need to see proof of a current prescription for xyz,” the applicant produces the proof, and the lab reports an acceptable screening back to the employer, so the employer doesn’t know what kind of a prescription the applicant has.

      3. Dino*

        Not always true about federal contracts. In my specific industry, I was told drug testing was mandatory for any company in this field (highly regulated and paid for by the federal government) in an interview with one company. Later I found out that it isn’t mandatory, that company just wants better rates on their health insurance costs so they claim it’s mandatory. I got hired at a different company in the same field doing the exact same work, with even more federal contracts than the company that told me drug testing was mandatory. I’ve been here for over 2 years now and appreciate being treated as a competent professional.

        I know there are some jobs and federal contracts that really do mandate drug testing, but ask around. If you have any contacts at any of those companies, I’d reach out and ask about the interview process in general. It might come up organically.

      4. ThatGirl*

        Caffeine???

        I know that caffeine is physically addictive (having a coffee addiction myself) but it’s not dangerous and in no way impairs the average person at work.

      5. KoiFeeder*

        I think it depends on the purpose of “drug-free” workplaces. I think, like with the federal government, it’s just a matter of not having employees break the law. If it’s a case of ensuring safety by being sure that no one does safety-impacting drugs on or off the job, yes to alcohol and tobacco, but frankly at that point you’re also banning benadryl and nyquil. If it’s a matter of banning substances people can become physiologically dependent on, sure, ban caffeine too, but you’ll also have to ban haagen-daz because if I do not get my chocolate ice cream fix I go into genuine Mr. Hyde style withdrawal.

      6. Loulou*

        Are you saying you think companies SHOULD fire someone for consuming tobacco/alcohol/caffeine? Or is your point that just as that would be absurd, it’s equally absurd to extend that to other drugs? If the former…puritanical does not even begin to cover it.

      7. retired2*

        I use CBDs for pain and sleep that I get from a man who works for a LARGE company that drug tests. So, depending on what effect you want, you might want to find something like that. His (now legal business) is thriving.

    3. Annony*

      It’s possible. I work for a hospital and they test for nicotine and won’t hire anyone who tests positive.

      1. No Tribble At All*

        I understand that one for medical staff! Do the restrictions apply for people who don’t interact with patients? (I don’t know if they’d be in the same building as patients ever).

        1. Siege*

          It’s not about patients or patient contacts. It’s about healthcare costs for the employer, who in a healthcare setting is typically the insurer. (I am taking that as based on Annony’s statement it’s a hospital. Obviously a podiatry clinic would not be your sole insurer.)

    4. Purple Cat*

      I can tell you it is a hot topic at my job, we currently drug screen, and apparently lose a fair amount of candidates that way. Drug-Use isn’t protected under the constitution, so companies can “discriminate” (deliberately in quotes) however they see fit on this topic. There’s also a challenge if you’re applying to a company that has heavy machinery positions, even if your role isn’t specifically in that area. It’s easier to have one set of “rules” for all incoming employees.

      1. pancakes*

        That’s not quite correct in my state (NY). From our Department of Labor: “The MRTA amended Section 201-D of the New York Labor Law to clarify that cannabis used in accordance with New York State law is a legal consumable product. As such, employers are prohibited from discriminating against employees based on the employee’s use of cannabis outside of the workplace, outside of work hours, and without use of the employer’s equipment or property.” There are some exceptions, of course.

    5. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      It varies what different companies will test for – so you might find companies that drug test, but not include cannabis in the list of things they’re screening for.

      My company’s parent company has some roles that involve operating heavy machinery and things like that, so their policy is that all employees must pass a drug test before hiring, and can be randomly tested at any point. (As far as I can tell, it really is random.) My guess is that making this mandatory for all employees regardless of role makes it (a) easier for them to administer (no need to figure out exactly which roles do/don’t require testing), and (b) prevents anyone from (successfully) protesting that their role really shouldn’t require a drug test because Reasons.

      While I have Opinions on this, it’s also something that’s not going to change so I don’t intend to ever bring those opinions up at work.

    6. Chauncy Gardener*

      Yes, you could get thrown out of the running for popping positive. Pot is still illegal on the Federal level, so if the company is a government contractor or does work for a municipality etc they may need to comply with Federal standards

  53. MoinMoin*

    How should I best explain why I’m looking for a new role to prospective employers? Longer story below, but the gist is that my boss hates the person I need to work with to do my job, so to punish this person has pretty much dismantled my position, which feels like a massive demotion for me. My boss does actually like me and gives me glowing reviews but doesn’t really have experience managing professionals or an understanding of the ins and outs of what I do, so she really doesn’t see how I would be unhappy effectively being a very overpaid admin, but guess what.

    I work in payroll (a position I’ve sorta siloed myself into over the years, but I have wider experience and I’d like to move away from it in the future) and report to accounting but work more closely with HR. When I took this job it was known that I wanted to move into something different eventually and we addressed that I could revamp the core responsibilities of the role to be much more efficient and I could use remaining time to work on projects to pad my resume, specifically working with HR to update employee policies and document/ameliorate some outdated processes. This was all fine at the time. Two years later and my boss (accounting, so I report to her but she has little understanding or overlap with payroll) and the HR manager (above me but not in my reporting line, but I need to work closely with her for payroll stuff) hate each other. When I was hired they were both new, now they know each other and… just no. I fully admit that they were both probably very different types of mean girls in high school and are both probably exacerbating this, but most of the outright hostility is coming from my boss. I know HR manager rubs some people the wrong way and is good at sneaky, cold, political maneuvering. I’ve worked in enough offices to be comfortable separating personalities and business. My boss, however, is from a small town in the south that was apparently a company town where everyone knew each other’s business from elementary school on and it seems like networking and personality is the most important qualification. She takes it very personally that, e.g. HR manager would invite her to lunch and be nice and a day later call her our for something accounting did wrong in an executive meeting. HR is 100% not always in the right, but my boss is not going about it the right way. This way is mostly to not allow me to talk to HR manager without her present and pretty much shove everything except the bare payroll basics off on HR, including projects I’ve taken on and honed over the years. E.g. I no longer manage our bonus program and calculations, all my benefits/deductions recons are shoved onto HR, I’m not involved in the leave process (despite needing to be for timecards/benefits deductions), as well as a lot of reporting and projects that I wanted to be involved in for my own experience (budgets, compensation analysis) I can’t be involved in solely because it also benefits HR and me not doing these things punishes them. To fill my time I’ve basically been given scanning and admin tasks that just need to get done and my boss legitimately doesn’t know or care enough about what I should be doing to think doing this stuff should be a demotion.

    I don’t really want to fix it, I just want to go. I really get along with my boss from a personal side and I know I could skate by forever just being an overpaid admin, but I don’t want to. I obviously don’t want to get into all this in an interview but I also want to make it clear the types of projects I’m capable of and I don’t know how to get into that without also explaining why I’m no longer currently doing them.

    1. Gracely*

      I would just say that your current job doesn’t currently offer you the chance to take on the kinds of projects you’re interested in and capable of doing, so you’re looking for somewhere you can continue to grow and take on more responsibility.

    2. ferrina*

      When possible, say what excites you about the new role. This will 1) help them envision how you’d fit in that role and 2) keeps the focus positive and professional.
      If they specifically ask why you’re looking to leave your current role, say “Unfortunately my role has been siloed into a purely payroll function, and I’d like to get back to doing a more diversified workload.” No mention of drama, and it also reinforces why you’d be a good fit at the new role (I assume you’re not applying to purely payroll positions). A variation of this (if you are applying to purely payroll positions) is “Unfortunately my current role has limited scope and no growth opportunities, and I’m ready to grow into a new position and hone new skills.”

      When employers ask this question, they’re just looking for red flags or bad fits. Like if you say “My current job is too nitpicky about details” and you’re applying to an accounting job….um, yeah, that might not work out so well.

      1. Reba*

        Exactly. Moin moin, almost none of what you wrote do you need to share with a prospective employer. (though I get why it would be extremely frustrating!)

        It’s this: “I have wider experience and I’d like to move away from [exclusively payroll] in the future” + “I’m excited about doing things like _____ and _____ in this role.”

        Good luck!

    3. Jaybee*

      “The scope of my current position has changed over the last few years, and I’m no longer doing the kinds of projects I’d like to be doing, such as…”

    4. Midwest Manager*

      +1 to Jaybee’s suggestion. Short and sweet with a redirect into what makes the applied-for position or company attractive to you.

    5. RagingADHD*

      None of that. Say none of that. As a matter of fact, the more you can block all that out of your mind the happier you will be.

      Your position has been restructured to focus mostly on payroll & admin, but you also have experience doing bonus, benefits, leave, and XYZ other projects, and you’re looking for a position with opportunities for that broader scope of work.

  54. PrincessB*

    I’m not actually sure if this belongs in the work or non work thread.
    I want to take a break from work, but I want to keep health insurance. I’m US based and not old enough for Medicare. I’ve heard of people at my organization taking sabbaticals (rare but possible).So I guess I could do COBRA then? Has anyone negotiated a sabbatical in a non academic environment? But if I leave completely, what are my options?

    1. Ashley*

      Only in religious settings.
      You could look at the HeathCare.gov options. Open enrollment probably just ended but you can qualify for life changes. Depending on where you work and your health / age that might be cheaper.

    2. Gracely*

      If you’re planning to use COBRA, just make sure you look at the costs before you leap–it’s insanely expensive. I would go Healthcare.gov if at all possible.

    3. Hannah Hopkins*

      COBRA is typically expensive and time-limited. When I was between jobs I compared COBRA, the Health Insurance Marketplace (aka “Obamacare”), and private plans available through Finder.Healthcare.gov. I ended up going with private insurance through BlueCross BlueShield. It was much cheaper than COBRA and fit my needs better than plans available to me on the marketplace. As someone who has always worked, I was pleasantly surprised at how many options are available — though they will all cost you more than an employee-sponsored plan.

    4. Alexis Rosay*

      Someone at my old job negotiated going off payroll for a time but keeping their health insurance, then reimbursing the company for it, because it was better than what she could get on the open market. She did a LOT of her own research into the company’s insurance policies and even our insurance rep was surprised to know that was possible.

    5. Siege*

      If you leave completely, that’s a qualifying event and it doesn’t matter that open enrollment for Healthcare.gov has ended. A sabbatical may actually count, but that probably depends on the state. COBRA is so expensive, unless you have VERY deep pockets or a serious health condition, I’d skip it and focus on the exchange option.

  55. Orange You Glad*

    A couple of weeks ago I commented on here about how to approach a situation with a remote coworker getting personal packages delivered to our office, then having an intern mail them to her home. Originally I had only witnessed one smaller package of hers in the office and that’s when she told me she would have the intern mail it and she said it in a way like it happens all the time. This week I was in the office and the receptionist dropped off a lot of packages for this coworker which were added to an existing collection around her desk area (10+ as of today). I told the receptionist that if it becomes a problem to speak up since it’s not her job to manage this coworker’s packages. I was planning to speak with the intern today to find out exactly what was being asked of her by this coworker (I am the intern’s direct supervisor) but it ended up coming up in conversation with our boss this morning before I could. He was aware of the issue but thought it was an occasional thing but I mentioned the pile this week and he went and counted them and agreed it was a problem. His opinion was if there was something small that fits in the box we were already shipping to the coworker, then fine we can throw it in, but we’re not using any company resources to ship her personal items to her. Apparently, she’s been using the company address for purchases to avoid paying sales tax (we’re located near a border with 3 states so she lives in a different state). Our boss said he’s going to make it clear that this coworker needs to come to the office to pick up her stuff and the general policy is not to ship personal items to the office. She will need to make her own arrangements for her future purchases (I suggested an amazon locker or a pickup service). It was an awkward conversation to have since I didn’t want to come across as tattling on this coworker but I’m glad it was addressed and I learned a bit of how to approach these types of issues in the future.

    1. ferrina*

      Ugh, what is this person thinking? That’s ridiculous! I’ve heard about this for occasional usage, but to get out of paying sales tax at all? Does that have potential fraud issues? (not worth pursuing, but I’m curious if it might)
      Glad you flagged it as a problem! This is the kind of toxic stuff that flies under the radar way too much, and getting it flagged and addressed is the right thing!

      1. Enough*

        Even if you do what his employee is doing you still have to pay the taxes. My state had an area for reporting these taxes and paying them and then a few years ago made it even simpler by allowing you to pay an amount based upon your income (you can still do the calculations and don’t owe anything if you paid taxes on everything at time of sale). And yes it’s fraud.

    2. Sssssssssssssssssssssss*

      Two jobs ago, I let personal packages come to the office as it was rare and it was for particular packages they didn’t want stolen. When you’re at the office all day, I get it! But we were a small branch.

      Most larger places I know, this is a HUGE no-no to receive personal stuff at the office. It would be even a bigger NO to have them then shipped to the person’s home in another state. I had one job refuse to even handle personal mail that had been stamped by the employee because they didn’t want to be responsible for it.

      That said: Years ago, I received a gift card in US funds and it would have been prohibitive to use it in Canada. I asked nicely for permission to use the gift card in the US, have it shipped to a US branch office and then shipped to the Canadian branch with the next courier (nothing extra or special). This was granted and I never used this privilege again.

      This employee is pushing it.

      1. Orange You Glad*

        Yea when we used to be in the office full time I would occasionally get something shipped to the office – but it was only when a signature was necessary and I did it a total of 3 times in 12 years. The rest of my stuff I managed to have delivered to lockers or held at the shipping facility if I wasn’t home. I live in the city where our office is located so it’s not like I have a garage or porch to hide my deliveries on at home. Now that we’ve been WFH/optional hybrid set up, I’m home most of the time so I have no issues receiving packages. I couldn’t figure out why this person was shipping things to the office instead of their home (which is in a suburb with a garage and porch). I didn’t even think of the tax thing and sales tax compliance is a big part of our job! I always thought this coworker pushed it with how many packages she received when she was in the office, this situation with her remote is bonkers.

        1. Chauncy Gardener*

          And having the office ship them to her home with the office paying for the shipping? In addition to the sales tax thing? I’m giving this co-worker some serious ethical side eye

      2. Jean*

        Yeah, this is really only acceptable in a small office when you are there to directly receive the stuff yourself. I used to do this sometimes when I was in an office of 3 people, to avoid having the stuff sitting outside my house unattended while I was at work. But if you’re not even there to receive it, and multiple packages are coming in that someone else has to deal with for you? Hell no.

      3. Midwest Manager*

        I only do this with personal items that I plan to use in my office. Easier than shipping to home, then carting to the office (and then hauling from the parking area 10 min away to the building I work in).

        Glad this boss addressed it so efficiently!

    3. WellRed*

      I’m glad this is getting resolved but want to encourage you not to equate “tattling” with your duty to the intern as their supervisor.

      1. Orange You Glad*

        Oh, I didn’t equate that with the supervision at all. I had the authority to control their work so I wanted to verify with them what was being asked of them and then I have the power to tell the intern not to do that for this coworker anymore. The coworker in question is my peer so I wanted to approach our boss with all the information before making any accusations.

  56. LovelySeven*

    My team is hiring a couple roles, and I had two friends from a past company reach out about the same role. We all used to work together but are now at different orgs. I think they’d both be potential great fits, and my company has no issue with me referring them both. I’m just not sure whether I should tell either that the other applied, or maybe just that they’re not the only one I’m referring.
    (I do not have decision-making power for the hire and am not in the reporting line for the role).

    1. ferrina*

      Ooh, depends on a lot of nuances. Do they know each other? Are they currently at the same company? Do they know the other person is looking?
      My first instinct is not to do anything that might out someone as looking for a job, since that can blow back in really weird ways (see: this week’s update to the letter about when HR found out they went to a single interview). But if they know each other are looking, I’d mention it with a laugh and say “you’re both awesome, and I’ve told my boss I’d love to work with both of you!”

      1. LovelySeven*

        They do know each other, but aren’t currently at the same company and don’t know the other is looking. And I wouldn’t say they’re socially friendly, just in the same professional networks/worked together a couple years ago.
        I trust both of them to be professional about protecting each other’s job security and I’ve been clear that a referral doesn’t make them an automatic in, more in just an “someone will look at your resume, if you get a call it’s up to you from there”. I think I’m going to err on the side of “another contact also let me know they’re applying” without naming names.

    2. Purple Cat*

      I wouldn’t specifically tell “Sally” that “Peter” was also applying and vice versa, but I would let each of them know that they weren’t the only person you referred. Just so neither of them assumes that it’s a “lock” because “Lovely” referred them. (which we all know they shouldn’t be assuming anyway, but human nature…..)

  57. Thursday Next*

    I have been looking to get out of my current job and applied for a similar position for a much smaller company. I’ve been through 4 rounds of interviews and there are apparently 3 more to go. Has anyone had 7 separate interviews for a job? On the one hand, it shows that the company is very invested in bring in the right talent, but wow this seems like overkill. I really really want this position – it’s a 33% increase in salary with less responsibility and a smaller team than I currently have.

    1. ferrina*

      That’s sounds like overkill, but sometimes companies (particularly small ones) aren’t good at streamlining their hiring process. It may or may not be indicative of what they are like to work for- I’d take this as a yellow flag, not a red flag.
      Good luck!

    2. Hlao-roo*

      I’ve never been in that situation, but I found some letters in the archives that might help:

      “how can I decide if a long interview process is worth it?” from August 1, 2015
      “I’m stuck in endless interviews with a company that can’t make up its mind” from January 28, 2020 (updated on December 21, 2020)

    3. Slipping The Leash*

      A friend of mine got her job about 6 months ago after 11 interviews. Not a typo. But she’s happy now, so….

    4. Not a cat*

      Yes. Recruiter, HR Manager, Team, Future Boss, VP, SVP, and a final fly out to Texas to sit with the entire group. I got the job, but it was a lot. I stayed almost 3 years.

    5. Chauncy Gardener*

      Yes for sure I’ve seen this and done this as well. Seven is a lot, but I’ve always felt that multiple interviews gives both parties a much better read on each other and the fit. It enables a candidate and the company to pop any potential red flags. It will also help with your onboarding once you’re hired, because you’ll already know so many folks there.

  58. Erin C.*

    Long time listener, first time caller. I’ve been reading AAM for awhile now. The Greate Resignation has hit my team pretty hard- I’m the only one that’s been at the company for more than 6 months, let alone two years. Our department director left a few months ago, just days after our junior member started. I’ve been unofficially ‘managing’ my team and trying to mentor our junior team member for the last few months. Our official temporary manager…let’s just say he’s in Teapot Financing and we’re in Teapot Decoration, so although he’s good at the weekly “what’s everyone got on their plates?” he can’t really help with anything.

    Anyhoo, all the mentoring and reading of AAM may be paying off. The higher-ups have decided that my particular niche of Teapot Decoration is going to be really busy next year, so they’re going to hire someone to work under me! Now if I just had a boss to help show me the ropes…We’re looking, but having trouble filling that position.

    1. Chauncy Gardener*

      Congrats!
      May I recommend all the “new manager” archives here at AAM? As well as the “One Minute Manager” books. I think there are two. Very quick reads and I’ve found them to be super helpful

  59. Eden*

    I’m in my 20s, and when I’ve told other people in their 20s their response has always been “congratulations” or similar even if I don’t say anything about having a new job lined up. I’ve done the same for friends who’ve told me they’re quitting recently, it’s always “congrats!” by default. But with folks in their 40s or 50s I’ve told, their reactions are usually more cautious at first, like they can’t quite figure out if it’s good news or not until I tell them explicitly “it’s good news”. Not trying to psychoanalyze generations here of course, I just think it’s a funny trend, that in general the younger people I know seem to be aboard the “quitting is good news end of” train. Anyone noticed anything similar?

    2. Corporate Minion*

      Its due to the different in the phases of life.
      I have a family to support, mortgage/loans/bills to pay. People in their 20s don’t typically live with quite as much financial pressure (yes, I am aware of the college cost/loan travesty) or that level of responsibility (kids) -so non of that is a consideration for them when they hear you’ve quit.

      My first reaction after ‘good for you’ would be concern that you have enough money saved, or otherwise coming in, to live. And then I would also be concerned about health insurance coverage.

      I’m in my thirties and I would probably react similarly to the 40 & 50 year olds. Especially if you didn’t saying with an happy tone or include a happy emoji etc.

      1. ThisIsTheHill*

        This. I’m in my 40’s, & unless I’m already aware of the reason why someone is leaving, my immediate reaction is, “Is this a good thing?” & then using their response to react accordingly. I’m sure some of that is due to being new to the workforce back when the tech bubble burst. People were leaving jobs they loved because they were rightfully afraid that their employers were going bankrupt.

      2. Eden*

        I think that’s my point though – certainly me and my peers (many of us with mortgages) know that job=money but I assume that when someone says “I quit my job” it was probably something they thought through and is to be treated with joy by default, instead of assuming it’s a problem by default because I probably should be worried more about finances.

        1. Corporate Minion*

          Maybe I misrepresented my thoughts.
          I would assume you had considered it seriously and made the best decision for you. But I am also aware the best decision can still leave a person in a difficult position. My brain goes through all the considerations I would have if I were quitting my job, which I listed in my first response -no matter the age of the person telling me they quit

          1. Corporate Minion*

            I forgot to say, I don’t think my brain would have done all this in my twenties -or at least not to the extent it happens now when someone tells me they quit. So I assumed this was the difference and thus my initial ‘different phases of life’ response.

            Now I’m wondering what the difference in perspective actually is.

    3. Jaybee*

      I think it’s that the older folks you’re speaking to are having a more parental reaction.

      They would certainly know it’s inappropriate to worry about the financial decisions of another adult their own age. You’re young enough that they’re comparing you to their own kids, who, in their minds, are perpetually 5 years old and want to be a dinosaur when they grow up.

    4. Colette*

      I think there’s a certain optimism some people have in their 20s that they usually lose by the time they’re 40. If you come from a world of retail work where people quit and find a new job quickly, it’s easy to assume that’s the same with white-collar jobs – but those of us who’ve been around have seen people stay unemployeed for 6 months or more (sometimes years), or lose out on jobs due to job hopping. So while leaving a particular job might be a good thing, we’re concerned about what comes next.

    5. Loulou*

      Are these close friends? I’ve said “congratulations” when a friend quits their job, because we’d already talked about it a ton and I knew they hated it/were working up to it/whatever. If an acquaintance quit their job and I wasn’t aware of the circumstances, I probably wouldn’t default to congratulations…though I’m not sure what I WOULD say, either. I’m closer to your age.

    6. RagingADHD*

      Because people in their 40s and 50s have been through more complicated life situations where people are ambivalent about their decisions, and might not be in a celebratory mood, or not yet.

      Like, “I filed for divorce” or “I found out I’m pregnant.” It’s smart to hang back a second and find out how the person feels about it before you shout “yay!” or say “I’m so sorry.”

      Unless they are giving you really clear signals like squealing and jumping up and down, you just don’t know where they are with it.

  60. Hannah Hopkins*

    My manager wants me to provide my goals and motivators as part of my annual review. I have a list of goals I came up with (using SMART acronym), but I’ve never been asked about my motivators before and I am unsure how this question is supposed to be answered.
    I thought of things that are *helpful* to me, like clear guidelines and detailed feedback, but I’m not sure those would be considered motivators. Absolutely any examples would be helpful to give me an idea of what an appropriate response is.
    Thank you in advance!

    1. ThisIsTheHill*

      One of my motivators is flexibility/work-life balance. I straight out tell management that I work to live, not vice versa, so they know that dangling a raise in front of me when I’ve been swamped for a year isn’t going to motivate me to stay. Being that transparent may not work for everyone – I am extremely privileged in that I don’t *need* a job, but choose to have one – so the language may need to be softened.

      Others I’ve stated in the past: Potential for growth & desire to expand knowledge related to my field.

      IMO, think of it as, “What gets me to clock in every morning outside of having bills to pay?”.

    2. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

      Look up moving motivators. It’s designed to present you with all good choices but you have to think about priority of them. You don’t have to do the exercise, but look up what the moving motivators actually are. That may help the framing of what you’re being asked.

  61. Once and Future Temp*

    For the last year I’ve been a temp in an internal staffing agency of a large hospital system, doing clerical/front desk-type work for covid-19 response. Most of the locations I’ve worked at have either closed or reduced staffing making it harder to pick up shifts, so in the near future I’m likely going to be emailing the staffing specialists I work with about being reassigned to a different position. I have three questions about what to put in that email I’d really appreciate feedback on.

    1. My current assignment is per diem, and the scheduling is primarily done weekly by self-scheduling/shift bidding, meaning I get to request my own schedule. This is great for me because I have another freelance job in the arts that typically makes me totally unavailable on weekends and during the week my preference is to pick up three shifts because I’m too busy for the typical five. But because I’m in control of my freelance schedule I can be flexible about which weekdays I work, length of shifts, times of day, or even the exact amount of days. When I’m explaining my availability to the staffing specialists, should I say anything about my other job or keep it vague? I’m torn between wanting to give them a fuller picture so we can find a new assignment that works for me, or not saying anything to them because I’ve always gotten the advice that I should minimize my arts freelance to my “day job” employers out of fear it will make me a less attractive employee. I know there are other temps who have had good responses to requests to have part-time schedules around college classes, but I’m not sure about other jobs.

    2. I’m aware that some of the open assignments the staffing agency has are for call centers, and I think I would be a terrible fit for a call center and miserable there. What’s a polite, professional way to say “no call center assignments please”?

    3. During my year working in covid-19 response, I’ve gotten lots of praise and great feedback from many different managers I’ve worked with, which as far as I know doesn’t reach anyone at the staffing agency. When I’m emailing the staffing specialists, is it worth it to mention anything about the praise I’ve received or what I’ve accomplished during my current assignment? Part of me thinks it would be worth it to “sell myself” on being an asset to the staffing agency/hospital system because it may help motivate them to find another position for me or make me a more attractive option for future openings, but I’m also worried about it being inappropriate or sounding conceited.

  62. Torn Between Two Teams*

    So, what to do about former teams at the same company?
    I started a new job this year and within three months was transferred to a different manager/org. However, the former manager still keeps inviting me to ALL of the meetings. I’ve asked to be removed from the meeting list but still keep getting the invitations. These meetings are mandatory but end up being social time. The team is incredibly social, actually, and I’m more of an introvert and don’t find large group meetings to be a way that I connect with people. I would prefer to connect individually with folks and have my work meetings be mostly focused on my work.

    I’ll also admit that I have a fair amount of resentment towards former manager (who did nothing to onboard or help me when I started the job) and who only ever wanted to talk about happy and positive things, not about work challenges or projects.

    I’m legitimately busy in my role and I like my new manager so much better. But I’ve been told by a co-worker that I should still go and build relationships with that former team because that org is very social and I am not coming across as friendly.

    Any thoughts?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      What does your new manager think? Going to meetings where you don’t need to be there, just to be friendly, sounds crazy to me. But maybe it’s this company’s culture?

      1. ferrina*

        Seconded! Ask your new manager! “Hey, as you know I’ve got a lot on my plate and would love to be able to free up this time. Do you want me to go to these meetings, or only attend if there’s an agenda item that is critical to my new role?”
        If you want to be friendly, there’s other ways of doing that- chat with people, grab coffee, share memes etc.

    2. Thursday Next*

      I would find it odd that a team I am no longer on would still expect me to participate in their meetings/social time. Do you have a dotted line to that team or is your current position unrelated? Can you talk to your new manager and find out what she expects?

    4. Torn Between Two Teams*

      YES! Great ideas, folks! I will ask New Manager, who is a busy person and so reasonable, and wants me to get my work done.

      Former Manager had a four hour meeting yesterday. Even though I declined, the messages kept popping up as notifications, talking about cats, or their holiday shopping lists, and lots of messages about how happy they were to all be on the meeting and how great everyone is. Seeing this every few seconds for four hours while I was trying to deep focus on my project really made me tense up. : )

      After the meeting, some of Former Team reached out to me and chastised me for not attending, as it was a very important meeting for them and they thought I should have been there. However, I am not on that team. I don’t report to that manager. It was FOUR HOURS. And as much as I love cats, these meetings just are like nails on a chalkboard to me.

      1. Jean*

        Please tell me you’re kidding. This is beyond ridiculous. Those people need to find some actual work to do FFS

        1. Torn Between Two Teams*

          That’s exactly how I feel. I wonder what they’re actually doing if they’re so excited about ongoing, mandatory social meetings.

          1. Badger*

            That is incredibly weird. Generally I would say it’s possible that people forget to remove you from a meeting invite and then you will have to decline forever. But the team chastising you? Hu?
            Definitely let your new manager be the fall guy/person.

      2. Loulou*

        I’m so confused by this whole situation! Is your workplace very disorganized, to the point that people on that team think you ARE still on that team?

    5. allathian*

      Bees, evil bees everywhere! Or at least in your former team. Please talk to your new manager ASAP, and if at all possible, ask them to invervene on your behalf. If they give you permission to mute your former manager so you’ll see their messages but only if you go and look at the conversation, but they don’t pop up and distract you, all the better.

      Is the coworker who thinks you’re coming across as unfriendly on your new team or on your old one? If it’s the old one, does what they think actually matter at all?

  63. Burr... it's cold in here*

    My sister lives in London with her family, and I live in the US with my family. I want to find a job in England so badly so we can be closer to my sister’s family.
    I am almost done with graduate school, with a focus on craft studies and art, and have a significant amount of experience with senior-level leadership at healthcare-related nonprofits, which means that I can be considered a “skilled worker.”
    I have applied for a few jobs in leadership roles with various assisted living facilities, and other such institutions. I have also just found a job at a museum which would be the dream job — BUT I don’t have fundraising or curatorial experience, which they are looking for (I have experience in everything else).

    Any hints on how to get my foot in the door as an international applicant? Should I get a British burner phone so I have a phone number that isn’t international?

    1. Bluebelle*

      Are you wanting Visa sponsorship and moving expenses? That is probably what the issue is. if you are a citizen and don’t need a work visa, then you need to say that. When I emigrated to Canada, I was there on a spousal visa and didn’t need a company to sponsor me. I had to put that in my cover letter.
      To get a work visa is very hard for a company to sponsor, they have to show that they need your skill and are unable to find that skill in existing residents.
      Good luck.

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Are you authorized to work in the U.K.? If not, a potential employer will have to do a lot of work on their end so that you’ll qualify for a work visa. To make it feel more worth their while to do that work, you need to be a near-unicorn in your field. As someone who is only “almost done with graduate school,” you probably won’t be successful in getting a job offer for leadership in another country, I’m afraid. Think about what jobs you can apply for where you would be bringing something beyond extra to the job.

      Example: I have a close friend who was recruited from Silicon Valley to do very highly skilled, very niche work in London some years ago. My friend was a few years into their career already and had a proven, money-making track record in the specialty. The company literally could find no individual in the U.K. to do their specialty, so they were willing to jump through the hoops to get them there.

    3. urguncle*

      As mentioned below, it’s going to likely be very difficult to just “get a job” in the UK. There are options other than what people have outlined below (as in being outstanding in your field). One is to play a long game and find a place that has a significant portion of their business in your target country and be forthright about your intentions during the interview process. “I’m especially interested in this company because I’ve always found international teapot manufacturing interesting and it’s something I want to pursue.”

      You can also look for opportunities to work as part of a program that would get you temporarily sponsored and allow you to look more seriously for a position while in the country. You can look for opportunities that your graduate school might have in partnership with other UK schools that could bring you in as a special student.

      Very long post made short: it’s not as easy as getting a British phone number and especially with what has recently happened in the UK, getting a visa to work will likely be a long process that will be frustrating, probably expensive and likely discouraging. You can definitely do it, but you’re not going to be moving in next door to them in a few months. Until then, you should try and make it out to spend time with the family, maybe offer to spend some time with them during a time that you’re free from school and be a live-in helper while you bond with your niblings.

    4. Bob Howard*

      On point is that you need to be aware of the “no recourse to public funds” condition that is sometimes applied by the immigration officers. I reccomend you carefully research this, and check whether it could possibly apply. Basically it means no welfare for you.

  64. Zoe Karvounopsina*

    I got ghosted by a company who interviewed me.

    I applied back in the halcyon days of October, was interviewed towards the end, and told ‘we’ll decide and get back to you within a week’. They did not. I thought ‘hey ho, academic hiring’ and went on with my life. After over two weeks, I sent an email to HR. No response. Sent another at the end of HR. Still no response.

    Was flicking through my web applications when I saw that my application status, which had all this time been at ‘Received’ had switched to ‘Formal Offer Made and Onboarding begun’ at which I nearly fell off my sofa. After a brief snap of “DID I GET THE JOB AND THEY NOT TELL ME” it was pointed out to me that this was probably the general job status, but, after six weeks and no contact, I could email one of my interviewers and confirm.

    So I did, and she hasn’t responded to me, and I am feeling vaguely grumpy about the whole affair. I interviewed! This is a professional membership organisation (who I may need to take out membership of going forward)! They could at least have done a form email saying “Thanks but no thanks.”

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I have never seen a situation where an application status was switched to “onboarding” or similar for anyone other than the person who was actually onboarding, that is banana crackers!

    2. ferrina*

      What?!? That’s a new one. My reaction would be the exact same as yours- it’s really weird if your application status is actually the application status of the job opening. That said, I’ve worked at a prof membership org, and they can be hit and miss in technical competency.

      That is so surreal. It really sucks, but will be a great story in a few months.

  65. Американка (Amerikanka)*

    I go to the same church as my boss (who is passive and overall frustrates me). I generally avoid him since I do not wish to interact with supervisors during my free time. I like my church besides this issue and do not with to change churches.

    Has anyone else experienced their boss also being a part of an organization in one’s personal life. If so, how did/do you navigate this?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      My former boss, whom I could not stand, belonged to my synagogue. I was a very active member and it was a city with very few options, so no thought of switching affiliation. I was lucky that my boss wasn’t quite as active, but when he did show up to services I would greet him (if I saw him or he approached me) and then go back to being with my friends and my partner. It ended up not being a huge deal– just be polite, greet quickly, go do your thing.

      I was, however, VERY careful not to speak negatively about him or the company while I was at shul, talking to the rabbis, etc. Small community, people know each other. I have since moved to a different city and it’s no longer an issue.

      Just don’t let him push you out. Treat him the way you would any other congregant with whom you have a passing acquaintance. If he complains, you don’t want to discuss work at work. (If it were me, I’d joke that I see him enough during the week.)

      1. Американка (Amerikanka)*

        AvonLady Barksdale: Sounds good, thank you for your advice! I am glad that I am not alone in the realm of bosses in religious meetings. At church, I try to limit what I say about him, but many in the congregation know I am unhappy where I work and want a new job. Hopefully this does not come back to bite.

        1. RagingADHD*

          I would advise you to seriously restrict who at church you talk to about job stuff. People talk, and they are far more likely to unintentionally reveal something through facial expressions or a stray comment than through intentional gossip.

    2. Rick Americaine*

      Yes. It was the worst job I ever had, he was miserable to work for, and it was awful. Fortunately (for me) he “asked me to resign” after 4 months & I had little to no interaction with him anywhere after that.

  66. BadNewsbears*

    I recently submitted my two weeks notice at my current job. And my manager delayed sending my resignation to HR by a day “just in case I wanted to change my mind.” There wasn’t a counteroffer or anything. I know that this is extremely weird, but I’m completely baffled as to why they thought they should do this.

    1. ferrina*

      Heh. That manager is setting themselves up to fail. My guess is that the manager is living in the Land of Wishful Thinking where if they pretend you aren’t resigning, maybe you won’t, and maybe they won’t have to answer any awkward questions about why you’re resigning.

      There’s not always a counteroffer when someone resigns. It depends on the company and the person’s role on the team, and of course on how much value their manager/company finds in them (and if the manager is empowered to offer a counteroffer).

    2. A Girl Named Fred*

      My manager did this when I resigned from my last job. Luckily I had submitted my resignation both to them and to our HR Director, so nothing actually got delayed. The manager told me they wanted to give me the weekend to think about the decision, at which point I got pulled in to my grandboss’ office Monday morning where they asked how I was feeling. The shock on their face when I replied, “I’m feeling good and that I made the right decision, and am happy to discuss what I can do to make the transition process easier over the next two weeks,” was absolutely delicious.

      Good luck with whatever your next step is after your notice period!

    3. Chauncy Gardener*

      I would doubleback to HR to ensure that your notice period expectations are not now increased by one day due to your manager’s actions. He sounds like an idiot, frankly.

  67. LibrarianInYourBusiness*

    Freelancers,

    What are some things, including resources, you wish you knew about when you started out? I’m a business librarian and I feel there is not enough programs done for freelancers in my area (we mostly focus on organizations and businesses.) I want to do a library program that’s sort of a Freelancer 101.

    1. ThisIsTheHill*

      What would have helped me: How to decide whether I should set up an LLC, tax implications of being a freelancer vs. being a third party contractor, the difference between working with a client in state (even if it’s remote) vs. out of state, & how to manage time tracking & invoicing.

    2. freelancer that hates tax season*

      Taxes! Dealing with 1099s and self-employed income and business deductions and all that is way more complicated than dealing with typical W-2s.

    3. pancakes*

      Not really freelance at the moment, but The Freelancers Union has some good info on their site in the “Resources” section.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      Setting rates and fees. This has been very confusing for me. I’m sure newbies would wonder how to put a value on their work, and what they can charge at the beginning vs. when they have more experience.

  68. Warrant Officer Georgiana Breakspear-Goldfinch*

    Dear job I had a phone screen with: “Senior” positions in this field do not start in the mid-80s and go up to the mid-90s. If that is what you are offering, put it in the job posting so people can self-select out. Love and kisses, Warrant Officer Breakspear-Goldfinch

  69. Ali + Nino*

    Any ideas on job boards, etc. where you can specifically find job postings with salaries listed? I’m slowly beginning a new job search and I don’t want to waste time on jobs where the salary is listed as “competitive,” only to find that there’s a $20,000 spread – and I’ll likely get offered the lower end of that based on experience, subject matter expertise, etc.

    So far I’ve been looking on The Mom Project, which lets you filter for job postings w/ salary listed. Any other suggestions? TIA!

    1. Chauncy Gardener*

      See Warrant Officer’s comment above. I have no idea why employers don’t post salary ranges. The lack of that info wastes everyone’s time

  70. Casual Muskrat*

    Can anyone recommended some additional colorful resume language for talking about projects where you did the bulk of the work but were not the official project lead nor the person with ultimate responsibility for the product? For example, drafting a policy document, circulating it for edits, integrating comments, etc. but someone else signs off on it before it can be distributed? I do a lot of this kind of work and I’m running out of colorful phrases to talk about these projects. I don’t want each project I highlight to sound the same on my resume.

    I’ve already got “Crafted” and “Drafted and coordinated”. (“Wrote” and “Created” might be too far reaching given that other people gave comments and approvals?) Le Help!

    1. ferrina*

      You can still lead (v.) a project without being the lead (n.). “Led key elements of the project including X, Y, Z” “Coordinated team for Ferret relay races” “project managed development of new rubber duck line, including….” (you can still manage a project if you aren’t a project manager, and you can manage a project that is overseen and signed off by someone else.”
      Pretty words also include “liaised” (with key stakeholders, donors, VPs, bigwigs, etc.) “key contributor among a team of 3 that….”, and yeah, “developed document on X, consulting key SMEs to ensure accuracy”
      Don’t underplay your own value. If you are the one driving the project, highlight that!

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Wrote and Created are NOT too far.

      You wrote and created it. Sure, other people might have suggested edits. But you did all the heavy lifting.

      In the literary world, the author generally thanks editors, early readers, people they’ve had thankful conversations with. But their name is the one on the dust jacket. Now that’s obviously not the paradigm in the business world for the product itself, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with putting “wrote” and “created” on a resume or a performance evaluation.

    4. Overeducated*

      I like “developed.” If it’s something I did almost all of the actual work on, and others commented and signed off, I’m comfortable using straightforward words like “developed,” “wrote,” “created,” etc. I see a difference between documenting the work I did on my resume, a private document, not slapping my name on the front of a document that more broadly represents my employer and is signed by someone much higher up. If it’s more of a group effort that I’m leading from within/behind, I might write a phrase like “worked with leadership to develop” or “led a working group to create.”

  71. OrangeUSB*

    I have a question about accommodations.

    Let’s say an employee has negotiated an accommodation for a reduced workload. Reasons for this are kept between the employee and HR and maybe the manager at the time.

    Her coworkers are not told of this accommodation. Now, I know that with accommodations, there’s no obligation to share details. It’s private! When it’s a physical accommodation, though, it can quickly becomes obvious why. I have a coworker with an accommodation to not lift higher than her shoulder, a coworker is assigned a small part of her work to help get it done and she has a sit/stand desk (and tells anyone who asks and advocates for herself).

    The coworkers begin to notice that the one with the accommodation does less. Remember, that’s her accommodation. Also, it’s noticed that she never offers to help anyone else, never takes on more work, never asks for additional work and will not respond to requests to have work done by a deadline.

    Everyone else is busy, the accommodated one is seen as not a team player and a complaint is made to the manager. The manager, after months of this, finally takes the frustrated coworker aside and explains the workload accommodation issue. Coworker apologizes to the manager but also adds had she known there was an accommodation in place, she would have NOT asked for things to be done by a deadline, they would have found different workarounds.

    My question is: should the rest of the team have been told?
    Does this bring the risk of the accommodated employee getting asked about something private? Yes.
    But everyone thinking she is a slacker instead is no better.

    Then: this accommodation is passed down from manager to manager over the years. COVID hits and the accommodated’s work is further reduced, due to circumstances out of her control. The newest manager is aware of the reduced workload requirement but no details. The workload on the other members of the team is heavy as they adapt to COVID reality so she starts to explore if the accommodated employee can take some of the work (since she’s doing less than before) to share the load and asks HR about the accommodation. HR replies there’s no official accommodation on file.

    And the accommodated employee, upon being offered her first additional work, firmly but gently refused it.

    What would be the best way to handle that going forward?

    No one wants to invade her privacy; no one wants details. The current team in question is a very compassionate bunch; her needs will be respected. There’s no budget to hire someone else since she’s got a reduced workload at a full time rate so there’s no way they will hire another full time person to help with the work. It’s at the point where no one knows what can be given to her to do nor what her current skillset is. But the workload on others is heavy.

    1. J.B.*

      That sounds like go back to the manager and (s)he needs to get more information out of HR. Like what is the remaining work that can be assigned?

    2. ferrina*

      I assume you’re the employee with accomodations in this scenario? I’d give my team a head’s up. Not the full story, but maybe something like “hey, I’d love to help, but I actually have a health condition that means I can’t. I know I don’t look sick, but this is an invisible illness that I really need to be careful with so it doesn’t flare up. I don’t really like talking about it, though- I’d rather focus on the work I can do!” (note that this language works for both physical and mental health conditions)
      We’ve all been on a team with that slacker, and with an invisible illness it’s easy to assume that’s what’s going on. One way to counter this is with 1) education (see script above) and 2) stepping in where you can. Are there days/times where you can take more on? Is there work that is easier for you, that you can do more of (and maybe swap with someone else?)? Be clear with your team where you can take more on and where you can’t take things on- this will help them know where they can ask for help.
      For the HR part- do you have any documentation of the accomodation? Any emails from earlier?

      1. OrangeUSB*

        Nope. Part 1 I just learned about. That script would have gone a long way to remove the frustration.

        Part 2 was ongoing until the accommodated one retired three weeks ago. The work impasse was never resolved. And genuine good wishes were sent her way when she retired (no party, no send off). I’ve worked with people who were private and introverted but nothing like this person. Her privacy and boundaries were always respected.

        If it had been me, I would be likely to use a script similar to what you offered and stepping in where I can. But that’s *me.*

        But the accommodated one did the absolute bare minimum. No offers to help out despite any apparent chaos. No asking for work after it was reduced by COVID. Never replied to meeting invites. She would take a vacation day if she knew there was a social event going on; no one asked about it but we continued to invite her. Never acknowledged forwarded emails (that had work she regularly did in them) and never confirmed it was done.

        1. ferrina*

          Ooh, that’s tough. There’s a difference between not being able to help the team and not wanting to help the team, but it’s not something we can usually see from the outside. The team sounds absolutely lovely in respecting every boundary and not pushing the person (not even a little <3 ).

    3. fueled by coffee*

      HR needs to be looped in on this, and clear guidelines about what this employee’s specific accommodations are need to be drafted so that the newest manager and the employee are clear about the expectations. It seems like there’s been an informal agreement over the years that no one has specific information about, has no official protocols, and this employee gets to dictate what she will or won’t do while resentment builds among her team, who have no idea what is or is not reasonable to expect from the employee.

      To be clear – I am sympathetic to this employee’s needs! I assume this stems from a need to accommodate some sort of chronic condition, and I am all for accommodating her reduced workload! But there need to be clear expectations of what a “reduced workload” means, so that the manager can plan around this.

      Is a reduced workload, “Employee only works 30 hours per week”? “Employee only handles 4 client accounts while other team members handle 6”? “Employee only manages Teapot Design tasks but not Teapot Manufacturing tasks?” You can’t fix the workload issue for the other team members if no one knows what the actual accommodations are.

      1. fueled by coffee*

        Oh, and to answer your actual question about what to tell the rest of the team: once a formal accommodation is in place, the rest of the team just needs to know that “Employee’s formal job duties are X, Y, and Z, so she won’t be handling tasks A, B, and C” or “Employee is working a 30-hour contract, so I (the manager) won’t be assigning her any work beyond that.”

        The team doesn’t need to know *why* the accommodation is in place, but they do need to know that the accommodation exists and that the employee isn’t ‘slacking.’

        1. OrangeUSB*

          @fueld by coffee: This is a clear and simple direction. This would have saved a lot of grief a few years ago.

      2. LuckySophia*

        I think first of all, employee needs to be made aware that HR has no official paperwork about the accommodation. If employee has those documents, they can provide them to HR and get the necessary documentation in place. If employee does not have those documents, maybe they need to go back to their doctor and obtain whatever documents *should have been on file* all this time. As “fueled by coffee” notes, the next part is clearly defining what those accommodations involve and what “reduced workload” means. I would think it helpful if the manager could then explain those broad parameters to the rest of the team. Not in a way that violates the employee’s privacy, just in a factual way: e.g., employee can do four hours of computer-screen time a day….and one additional hour a day reviewing and filing paper printouts of llama-grooming reports. And then manager/team should go from there to figure out how best to allocate the remaining workload.

    4. CurrentlyBill*

      Accommodated employee: I apologize. Given the specifics of my role I’m unable to take on that task. If you have further concerns, you’re welcome to take them to my supervisor (or yours) and maybe she can help you come up with a solution.

      Accommodated employee’s supervisor: My employee is correct. There are specific business reason why they cannot take on that task. Let’s try to come up with another solution.

      Querying employee: But WHY?!?!?!

      Accommodated employee’s supervisor: As I said, there are specific business reasons. Now let’s talk about a different solution.

      Repeat as needed.

  72. :(*

    One of our vendors has been hit hard by COVID, to the point that their usual team that works with us was entirely out on medical leave for a few days, and now only 2 of the regulars are in.

    They’re all completely remote. These were mostly Thanksgiving infections.

    Our Executive Director, when she heard about this, told the vendor rep “Well, I think that’s a case for going back into the office, don’t you? We’re all in the office here and doing great!”

    Rep laughed it off, of course, but after the meeting ended, she stood in the hallway talking to us and reiterated that they should all go back into the office and she was 100% serious about that.

    Should note, I know this because a few weeks ago, she and my supervisor pulled me into the conference room to formally document that I was struggling with certain parts of the job.
    By saying this, were they saying that I don’t understand my scope of duties, or that I do bad work? No, no, of course not.
    No. I am on a PIP that includes the improvement metric “Will keep door fully open unless in a meeting or ad-hoc phone call. Ad-hoc phone calls must be added to your Outlook calendar so Executive Director knows that your door is closed for a reason.”
    I had been keeping my door slightly propped open when not on calls. This was not good enough.

    Anyway. I have two interviews next week and a metric crapton more applications out in the wind, so wish me luck!

    1. Sharona Fleming*

      Oh my goodness. I wish you the best of luck. That level of micromanaging about phone calls is YIKES.

      1. :(*

        Thank you. I hate being in this position because I’ve only been here a bit over a year, but everyone I talk to about this irl is in the “that’s super controlling and weird, get the hell out of there” camp, which helps.

        It’s just frustrating being in this position. ED isn’t anti-vaxx or COVID denialist or anything, but she just has these bizarre ideas and I don’t know where they come from. Going IN to the office stops COVID? Mask up when you’re in the hallway, but it’s weird to wear a mask in your office – even though your door has to be wide open? Thus ensuring the hallway air is in your office and vice versa? Genuinely, I cannot follow the plot here.

    2. ferrina*

      Wow, that’s bonkers. You’re supposed to add ad-hoc calls to your calendar?? “Please hold while I add this call to my calendar. How long do you think your question will take?”
      And then they put you on a PIP for that?????

      Good luck on your interviews and applications!

    3. A Girl Named Fred*

      O o f, that’s definitely bananacrackers. I need to keep some good luck mojo for my own job search, but any extra I have I’ll send your way!

    4. Wicked Witch of the West*

      I don’t interpret it being about phone calls. They want the office door wide open. During a pandemic. That supervisor is dangerous.

    5. Chauncy Gardener*

      WHAT?? This is all so far beyond the realm where logic lives. And you’re on a PIP,,,,, I’m just,,,,, sputtering over here.
      Flee!!

    6. Anonymous Hippo*

      Wow. Nobody has had control over the status of my door since I was like 12 years old. Good luck and good speed on your search.

  73. Van Wilder*

    Should I apologize for calling anti-vaxxers idiots?

    In (unfortunately) not the most embarrassing incident I’ve had this week… I was on a conference call. A coworker was talking about a friend who’s anti-vaxxer but is too embarrassed to go on dates in NYC, where they’re checking vaccine cards, “because he doesn’t want to look like an idiot.” I blurted out “so he’s ok being an idiot, he just doesn’t want to…” and then said “oh, sorry, that was rude.” And my coworker said “no, it’s ok, he is an idiot.” and proceeded to talk more about his friend…

    But I was more concerned with the other people on the line. One young woman, in particular, who I have reason to suspect hasn’t gotten vaccinated because of (unfounded) fears of infertility. I value her and, while I think everyone who’s able should get vaccinated, we’re still working remotely so her choice doesn’t directly affect me.

    Should I apologize again to the group? To her directly? Or let it go?

      1. Tayto*

        Sorry, I meant don’t mention the incident again. I suppose you probably shouldn’t have said what you said in quite that way in a conference call, but you don’t really have anything to apologise for, and anyway apologising will just make it more awkward.

    2. BLT*

      Ha, I’d have said the same thing. I wouldn’t stress over it and unless someone approaches you about it, I see no need to bring it up with anyone who was on the call.

    3. Thursday Next*

      I would just let it lie. You apologized in the moment so anything further would make it awkward

    6. RagingADHD*

      Speculating about whether someone is vaccinated or not, and speculating about their reproductive plans or concerns, is much much ruder than referring to an unrelated third part as an idiot.

      Quit while you’re ahead.

      1. Badger*

        Yeah I come down here. the thing is you don’t know for sure so bringing it up with her to confirm and THEN apologizing sounds like making it worse.
        And you apologized in the moment, so I think you are almost golden.

  74. PrairieEffingDawn*

    I’m a few weeks into a new job and really feeling unsure of myself.

    The first couple weeks were great. I enjoy my manager and my team members, the company onboarding was great, and my first small project has been going well.

    At the beginning of last week I was put on a second project that will make up the bulk of my work and things have taken a turn. This is a huge company which is a new environment for me, and I’m just not connecting with the product managers I’m working for. They keep impressing upon me that the work is going to be completely overwhelming and unmanageable by one person. I feel completely out of my depth. I’m having trouble knowing whether this is new job jitters or if I’m just in the wrong place.

    My manager is out on vacation this week but I am hoping to speak with him next week about how things are going. I want to be able to be honest about my apprehension but I also don’t want to be seen as a complainer either. I’m taking over for a coworker who was only on this project for 6 months and she has made no secret that she is delighted to be off the project. I can’t help feeling like my manager must have felt like she would quit if she had to remain on this project and that since I’m the new person I’m getting the problem project that no one else wants to do.

    1. ferrina*

      Good news: This project is a known headache. The product managers know it and your coworker who previously worked on it knows it.
      Bad news: You’re on the project.

      Don’t be shy about asking for help. Ask all the questions. What has worked in the past? What hasn’t worked? Talk to your coworker about the best way to ask her questions- can you put a 30 minute hold on her calendar a few times a week so you can ask her questions while you transition in?

      Be clear about the resources you need. Product managers say that the work is too much for one person- why? What specific parts do they have concerns about? Do you have concerns about it? Brainstorm solutions with your manager.

      A few weeks is no time at all. Give yourself a few months to really get your feet under you. Maybe this project was wrong for your coworker, but you will be able to get a handle on it (I’ve had that happen a couple times- built me a great reputation as a problem solver). Good luck!

  75. cubone*

    A vent today:

    I quit my job and my last day is right before the holidays (I liked the job, but the culture was very stressful and toxicity was festering). It is a small-medium nonprofit and the CEO sent out an email to a network of partners we work closely with, with a few general updates and included a staff update about my departure, as well as a colleague whose contract ends in January, and another colleague who left at the start of December.

    The announcements about those colleagues were 1-2 paragraphs long, heaped with praise and noted multiple specific accomplishments. Mine was:
    “Cubone’s last day is X and we thank them for their contributions.”

    I know this should solidify leaving is the right decision, and also the sheer obviousness of it is pretty funny, but I’m also surprised at how hurtful it feels. My boss and colleagues have been really kind and expressed genuine sadness about me leaving. I don’t think I was a terrible employee. I also have had next to zero interaction with the CEO, so I have no clue what I did that warranted such a tense response. Colleagues have already acknowledged to me their surprise and discomfort with the wording, so I know it’s not just me (and my boss had other updates in the email she would’ve had to write, so I’m doubtful it was her failure to properly contribute. I can also tell the other colleagues’ praise is very much in the writing/phrasing style of the CEO).

    Mostly I’m also just embarrassed that the partner organizations I worked with might also pick up on the cold formality of it, when I really enjoyed working with them and was hopeful to maintain some of those relationships in my career.

    1. ferrina*

      Ugh, that’s crappy. The worst part is that it may not have even been personal- the CEO might just have not even been thinking about you. They just had stuff to say about the other people and nothing to say about you, and they thought that was okay.

      It sounds like you interact with the partners frequently, so I wouldn’t worry about it. They’ll remember that they liked working with you.

      1. cubone*

        This is a good point! it totally may not be personal. I think it’s partially that the little I know of the CEO is not great (seems to be a very sharp/salty personality) so I jumped to the conclusion that it was a bit more intentional. But who knows.
        Thank you!

      2. Chauncy Gardener*

        Came here to say just this. I doubt this has anything to do with you, cubone. Please don’t take it personally

    2. usernames are anonymous*

      Could it be that the CEO doesn’t know you well enough to write more – though they should have asked for something from your boss. I’d say reach out to your contacts at the partner organizations with a quick farewell note of your own. Even if it’s just “I enjoyed working with you, hope our paths cross in the future” type email.

  76. 9to5*

    What happened to the 9 to 5 schedule? I entered the workforce about 15 years ago with an actual 9 to 5 job. At some point that changed to 8:30 to 5, and now I’m seeing openings for 8 to 5. Whyyy? I mean, I know why. Unbridled capitalism and corporatocracy. But damn. So unnecessary.

    1. L. Ron Jeremy*

      9 to 5 is 8 hours and since most people take a lunch break, they decided to start earlier as opposed to staying late.

      At my last job, I would start very early at 5am and leave around 3pm to beat traffic home.

      1. 9to5*

        My first “real” job was 35 hours a week, 7 hours a day plus an hour lunch. IDK why 8 hours is the standard– it didn’t used to be, at least for more junior hourly jobs.

        1. Observer*

          Actually, it did used to be, then things got shortened to 7 hours.

          Technically “full time” is considered 40 hours.

          1. Loulou*

            It’s not true that full time is technically a minimum of 40 hours! For the purposes of the ACA a full-time employee works at least 30 hours, for example. I’ve also worked places where full-time (union) employees worked 35 hours. My guess is this is very industry and shop specific.

            1. Mannequin*

              I worked a swing shift veterinary job where I had 8 hour shifts on weekends & holidays, but my weekday shifts were only 6 hours, because I started after the normal business hours had ended. It was considered full time at 34 hours, and I qualified for benefits.

              I’m not sure if this was the legal mandate at the time (~30 years ago, but in CA), but I do know that the excellent owner & management considered it a full time, benefit eligible position at 34 hours because it was the maximum I could possibly work on my normal schedule.

          2. fhqwhgads*

            I’m under the impression it’s moreso that 9-5 used to include an hour paid lunch, but now it’s rare to have a paid lunc hour(or half hour), which is where the 8-5 or 9-5:30 etc comes into play.
            That said, to the person who originally asked: in my experience this shift happened waaaaaaay more than 15 years ago.

    2. CaviaPorcellus*

      Agreed with L. Ron Jeremy – I think this is actually more to do with mandated break laws (a good thing!) than unfettered capitalism. People are still doing 8 hours, but now they get to take 30 min – 1 hour away from their desk for lunch.

    3. Girasol*

      I wish I still had our IT VP’s email explaining this to our team. It said, in so many words, that our building entry and exit times, as measured by the card key entry system, must be 9 hours apart because that was 8 hours for work plus an hour for lunch. He knew that nearly everyone on the team worked through their lunch hour, but the mandate held because he would assume that everyone managed to get in an hour’s worth of breaks somehow, sometime during the day. Also, anyone whose entry and exit times were exactly 9 hours apart was cutting it awfully thin and should speak to their manager to find out whether they had a performance problem.

    4. Anonymous Luddite*

      Well yes, paid lunches went away.
      Previous job started earlier also because we were on the west coast and had a subordinate plant on the east coast. Nevermind the east coast plant never could wrap their brains around the time difference.
      > I haven’t heard back from you in hours?
      < You sent your first note at 5am Eastern. That's 2am Pacific. I was home and in my jammies.

      1. Anonymous Hippo*

        I wish Outlook had a feature that translated the time into any and all time zones you are email/meeting inviting too. Our new corporate keeps scheduling meetings “first thing” which means we have to get in at 6-7am.

    5. Yesterday's Jam*

      Right? My new job offers full and part time, so I’ve set my threshold at 32 hours. It’s so nice to have shorter days! There is that little voice in my head that says I *should* be working 40 hours a week, but I’m comfortable and that leaves hours for someone else.

  77. Cookies for Breakfast*

    This year at work was marginally better than 2020, because the boss I realised was a huge stress factor is gone, but I’ve still felt discouraged and exhausted most of the time.

    A year of job hunting led to almost nothing, aside from some mildly amusing stories to tell at parties. I got an offer from a large company that disclosed a salary range they then denied advertising. Even though I stand by turning down a huge pay cut, I’m so frustrated with my current job I sometimes feel a bit of regret. I don’t know how long it’ll be before I get that far in a hiring process again, because my skill set is way behind what the market expects (OldBoss + mildly dysfunctional workplace + pandemic really did a number on my employability). I don’t even know anymore what my strengths are, what sort of job I’d be good at or would enjoy, and I really thought that by this point in life I’d have a solid grasp on that.

    I’m starting to realise how much of an impact OldBoss had on my confidence. He never reviewed any of my work, made me believe that other stakeholders didn’t want to work with me, and never listened to any of my ideas or concerns. All he cared about hearing was the sound of his voice. There are bad decisions he made that NewBoss is now holding me accountable for (the irony: I thought I’d find a new role long before having to deal with the fallout). My anxiety keeps telling me that NewBoss judges me for the failing projects I’ve inherited from OldBoss, so clearly I’ll be out of a job in no time.

    I keep telling myself that I’m learning, and I’ll get somewhere at some point, and when that happens I’ll be in a much better position to know my worth and what next step feels good for me. But I’m too exhausted to do any training outside of work. Which is too bad, because the role change and upskill I was promised by higher-ups when OldBoss was let go will probably never happen. In fact, some things that happened since NewBoss took over feel almost like a demotion. I’m still stuck with the same repetitive tasks that, over the past few years, have taken up all the time I could have spent growing (and I see, now, that OldBoss’s intent was precisely that).

    I’m taking all this way too personally; that much I know. And it’s so surprising, because I was never like this before.

    I keep thinking of the few letters I’ve read recently, where LWs mentioned that finding a good therapist was their turning point. Maybe that’s what my next step should be. It’s just a damn hard one to take, what with the huge cultural stigma around it in the environment I was raised in, and a history of doctors not even believing my about physical issues they could see. But hey. I’m stuck. I got myself here. Which way up, again?

    1. retired2*

      therapist. yoga. meditation. My primary care is a naturopath. She can do everything an md can do except prescribe opiods. She listens to my whole problem…offers not only such things as supplements but medical tests. Maybe a safe place to start? Mine could help me find whatever kind of other help I need. I’ve been in toxic workplaces. Just walking 1/2 hour every day helped…changes your neurotransmitters. My yoga teacher works with neuroplasticity. Maybe some of this could help you skirt doctors who don’t believe you. There is life beyond this…

    2. Chauncy Gardener*

      Hard agree with retired2.
      And please know that this is you feeling really beaten down and hopeless, not the you inside you, working in a good environment that helps bring out the best in you.
      Please take care of yourself and give yourself time to heal. Maybe healing could be your priority in 2022? Maybe read many Friday Good News posts and please take them to heart because this can be you?
      Many virtual hugs if you want them

  78. Winter's Here!*

    Oh, I used to see that “Great working hours!” followed by “8 to 5” and wondered what they were smoking. And the salaries were less. I wouldn’t apply to those when I was job hunting.

    Ironically, as I get older, my work day is getting shorter. Two jobs ago, it was a 7.5 hour workday. The job after that was 7 hours (8 to 4) and the one after that, a very rare 6-hour work day.

  79. Sharona Fleming*

    Do you have a favorite template/service to use for an internal newsletter? My company’s internal comms are….nonexistent and I have been tasked with coming up with options to help better communicate updates/announcements/etc. Maybe something with analytics built in to see how many people are actually reading it?

    1. cubone*

      MailChimp is very popular for this – haven’t used it myself or know the pricing, but generally sounded like my non-“techy” colleagues could work with it reasonably well. And does have analytics for open/click rates (possibly more).

    2. OyHiOh*

      We use ConstantContact (very similar to MailChimp), and are able to use it to manage the bulk of our communications, internal and external. Both MailChimp and ConstantContact have analytics, both are pretty easy to learn how to use.

    3. Siege*

      Depends on your industry. If you need more than emails, I like Action Network, but it’s overpowered for email only, and it does have some serious drawbacks in terms of how it can glitch.

      I’ve used Constant Contact. It’s probably your better choice; Intuit just bought MailChimp and laid off most of the engineering staff, so there are concerns about their plans and MC’s overall long-term viability. I’ve never had to develop a theme for CC, but the last time I used it, the designer came up with a layout that could not handle photos in a spot we’d put photos under the previous theme, so be cautious about how you build it. The tools are easy to use, and user management is largely straightforward. That would be my suggestion unless you think you need growth.

  80. Rara Avis*

    My husband was laid off in July 2020 and has his first job offer (aside from temp work) since that layoff. It’s a good job in many ways, but the employer does not contribute to health care. He can stay on mine, but they require him to join their dental plan. Has anyone had a similar requirement — you have to join our dental plan, but we won’t pay anything towards it? HR at my employer said they had heard of required plans, but usually the employer would pay for it if it was required. (The pay for this job is on the high end for this type of work, which may be the trade-off on the insurance issue.)

    1. CaviaPorcellus*

      I have never heard of this. Everywhere I’ve worked, or applied to, or known of, you’re allowed to waive coverage for everything (medical, dental, vision) if you’re already on another plan. Hell, some employers even give you a small bonus on your check for waiving – it comes out to less than their contribution toward the benefits, so they’re still saving money.

      Requiring something and not putting any funds toward it seems a bit over the top.

    2. WellRed*

      The only thing I can think is they need to meet a minimum number of enrollment but I can’t believe they don’t pay something.

    3. Midwest Manager*

      My spouse’s org offers no-cost health care for employees, but doesn’t cover family members – at all. Employees can opt-out of the free coverage (which is frankly terrible anyway) but they have to show proof of other coverage to do that. I’m just glad that my org has amazing coverage and it’s really inexpensive.

    4. Chauncy Gardener*

      How is it required if they’re not paying for it?
      I wanted everyone at my company to have disability insurance, so in order for it to be “auto enroll,” the company pays 100% of the premiums

  81. Wordybird*

    Hi! My boyfriend has spent most of his working life in hands-on/manual labor (but not construction) type jobs and is looking to transition away from this work. He has a degree (not related to any field he’s worked in) and supervisory experience but is finding it difficult to “translate” his skillset into higher-level operations jobs. He is not able to move up at his current company.

    He would, ideally, like to be able to work remotely but we both think that might be too big of a step to take and he would need to move into an operational at-the-office role first before transitioning again into remote work.

    Does anyone have any experience or advice with this?

    1. WellRed*

      Has he taken the lead on things, managed things, improved efficiency, lowered costs, completed ahead of deadlines?

    2. Midwest Manager*

      Resume and letter should focus on the operational/supervisory experience and successes he has. Would be good to mention the career change and some explanation for it. Is the degree in a field that he’s looking to go into? If so, highlight “getting back to a field I’m interested in”.

      As a supervisor, did he coordinate schedules, vendor deliveries, anything that could show organizational and leadership skills? It could help to have him think of the things he’s done in his history, and how those experiences might play out in an office role. It might be a hard jump from production to higher-level operations, maybe looking for something mid-level (team lead vs. department head) might be more appropriate to ease the transition period.

    3. retired2*

      My son works for a growing construction company and they’re hiring people like this as project managers. Emphasize that sort of experience. Their PMs come from all kind of backgrounds. College graduates don’t know the real dimensions of a 2×4. If he knows that, it could be important. They’re hiring as fast as they can.

    4. Chauncy Gardener*

      Yes, project management sounds like a great fit. Also, facilities manager, maintenance manager, shop steward, roles like that

  82. Can't Sit Still*

    Covid-19 “burnout.” My colleagues are tired of the daily health check in and have started lying to say that they are fine, because “it’s just a cold” or “it’s just this once” with the predictable results of people coming to work with Covid and infecting others. There is the bonus of just “forgetting” to wear a mask or saying masks don’t work, so why bother.

    The last time I was in the office, there were 15 people in a 12 person conference room all day and no one was masked. I am intensely frustrated by this behavior, and have reported truly egregious stuff, but still. We have paid Covid sick leave, we are strongly encouraged to be fully vaccinated, with mandatory weekly testing for those who aren’t vaccinated, with a bonus in January for the fully vaccinated, the people who are coming in can WFH 100% if they want, all of our conference rooms are now videoconference enabled, and I just don’t get it.

    Why are people like this? I don’t understand how our EHS folks don’t hate everyone at this point, but I guess they are better people than I am.

    1. Alice*

      +100000
      At my org, they aren’t enforcing the vax mandate , the requirement that unvaxxed people test weekly, or even the mask requirement. All of these requirements are created by our company, not imposed upon us by the government.
      Two people on my team routinely do Zoom calls together from an office conference room where masks are required, but not wearing them. Our boss, our grand-boss, our great-grand-boss are all in Zoom meetings where this is obvious, but no one enforces it.
      They do enforce the requirement that I work on site 50% of the time.
      If I bring home COVID to my immune-compromised husband, I will never forgive these people.

    2. 653-CXK*

      I went to the office for the first time in three months to collect the mail that had been piling up (I work in a senior community health center, with a day center), and I admit I was terrified to come back in fear that I would get COVID again. They also had a small outbreak in our day center that forced people to get COVID tests, which added to that anxiety. Thankfully, the company is fervent in keeping COVID at bay because of vulnerable senior citizens.

      As for other companies who think, “As long as we do the bare minimum, we should avoid COVID, right?” and “COVID isn’t that bad!” it’s seems the be prevailing opinion but it’s dangerous wishful thinking.

  83. Nannerdoodle*

    Does anyone have any ideas or a good script for how to tell higher ups that you (and pretty much everyone at and around your level) really enjoy remote work and are clearly doing it well (proven by metrics and goals easily being met/exceeded from home). All the higher ups at my organization want things to return to mostly in person work. They sent a survey about remote work today, and the tone was clearly “why do you dislike remote/hybrid work”. The thing is, the only issue with working remote is getting communication from those higher ups! Everything else is great. And there isn’t even enough space in person for everyone to be there all the time unless you’re sticking 3 people in an office like sardines.

    1. pancakes*

      I feel like there was something more recent, but there’s an Oct. 2020 post here titled “how to negotiate remote work once you get a job offer” that looks useful.

    2. ferrina*

      There may not be much you can do. If leadership decided that they like in-office, then that might be decided. Sometimes you can get exceptions from your boss (and it can get easier if you are asking to wfh twice a week instead of full time), but this depends on the company culture.
      You should certainly try to point out the benefits (able to focus better, more productive, in my field we love to point to the heavy writing load and how it’s easier at home), but there is no magic wording or proof that will get leadership to agree to something they don’t want.

    3. Girasol*

      I would focus on those metrics and the issues facing your management, like the space problem. Can you show how working at home is not merely okay but that it is actually better for the company’s bottom line? It looks like you’d be happier at home but your higher-ups would be more comfortable communicating with you in the office, so while employee satisfaction is a factor, it won’t make a strong case if it’s yours vs theirs.

  84. AnonforThis*

    A manager of another team in my department is trying to get everyone to pitch in to buy an expensive gift for our department head. I would just say sorry, i follow the rules about gifts flowing downward, but there is some pressure to be a team player because she is a manager.

    And I guess I feel petty but part of the reason I don’t want to is not just principles. It’s that the department head is frequently quite rude to me specifically whenever he feels stressed out. And recently the stress of this, on top of other problems in my personal life, has in turn been making me have a terrible flare up of a chronic illness i have.

    How to proceed? Forget to pay by the deadline? Just say the thing about following the rule on this?

    1. Thursday Next*

      “I really don’t have room for this in my budget, particular around the holidays. I also believe that gifts should flow down, not up.”

  85. Stormlightnight*

    Hey y’all, I’m really struggling to write a cover letter as a scientist. There’s a lot of techniques that I know, but not a lot of measurable outcomes for them. I have experience as a chemist and microbiologist. I’ve worked in companies, in academia, and for startups so I have experience in a lot of different environments.

    How do I convey that I find my work interesting, but there’s just not a lot of ways to measure just how well I do things? I’ve looked over the cover letters on here and I am still kind of lost.

    1. May Flowers*

      As a hiring manager, the most compelling cover letters to me are the ones that clearly demonstrate the candidate’s experience and enthusiasm about the work/role. My all-time favorite cover letter I’ve received (and hired from) was someone on my team who took highlights from his daily experiences in the role he was in, shared what he did/noticed about those specific experiences, and then talked about how his actions/insights would be well-suited to the work in the new role. I appreciated the glimpse into his mindset, his lens for looking at our work, and the care he took to match his experiences with the requirements in our job posting. So perhaps you could lean more heavily on what excites/interests you about science, what unique experiences you’ve been a part of, etc. and then show how that would make you a good candidate for the role you’re applying for.

  86. OTGW*

    I just got a new part time job—been there a few weeks and it’s a step up for me. In my industry, it’s hard to get anything beyond entry level without a MA which I don’t have so it’s pretty great I snagged this job. But I need a full time job. I haven’t been LOOKING looking, figuring I can work my two PT jobs and then in a year or so, use my experience with this new job to get a better job.

    But I saw this job that’s full time, it’s related to my industry if not directly, and I really want to apply. I’m not sure if I should though, since I just got this new job. And my friend recommended me and helped me get this position so I feel like I would be betraying them? (My friend, more than the employer)

    The chance of even getting that full time job is high. And it would be kinda weird to say “Oh this offer fell in my lap” cause that’s not always how it works in my industry. Idk, I guess I need people’s permission to apply and advice on how to talk about it if I were to get an offer with my employers lol.

    1. fueled by coffee*

      1. This is your permission to apply.

      2. If you get the job, tell your employer and your friend, “I thought I could make two PT jobs work, but realized after I started working here that I really do need a single, FT job. I’ve really enjoyed working here and I apologize for the inconvenience…” and so on. Just frame it as a structural issue that’s not about the job itself but your career needs. Looking for FT work is not betraying the friend who helped you find *something.* Then leave the PT job off your resume in the future so you don’t need a reference from them. If the employer wants to be mad at you over this, tough cookies for them.

      1. ferrina*

        Seconded. Just apply. Applying doesn’t mean that 1) you’ll get the job offer and 2) you’ll take the job offer if it’s offered.
        I also agree with fueled by coffee’s approach for how to approach it if you do get the job. It’s a structural thing, and reasonable people can understand that. It may burn a bridge at the organization, but your friend should understand (though you definitely owe them the next round of drinks)

    2. Cheezmouser*

      Agree with coffee and ferrina above. Most reasonable employers (and friends) understand the issue of “I need a full-time job” and won’t hold it against you. You need to look out for your own interests. It’s unfortunate for the company that you’d only been there a short while, but that’s the risk they take when they offer a part-time only position. As for your friend, as ferrina mentioned, a nice gesture might help smooth things over.

  87. ecnaseener*

    I don’t have a question so much as a little brag :D

    I work in a compliance office (reviewing things up-front, so people need to go through us to get their projects done) — which means people are inclined to dread working with us and drag their feet, unless we really work hard to show them we’re helpful and pleasant.

    Today I had to tell a team YOU MESSED UP BIG-TIME, HIT THE BRAKES RIGHT NOW, which is never fun and probably ruined their day. But one of them reached out separately to me to not only apologize for the mistake, but thank me for always being so helpful!!!

    I’m not a relationship-oriented worker, guys. It doesn’t come naturally to me to cater to people’s feelings while I do my job. But I built up enough goodwill with this person that she responded to a “scolding” with a thank you!!!

  88. Anita Brake*

    Are there any teachers here, who also happen to have PTSD? Today we had a fire drill (nothing new there), but my stress reaction to it this time was over-the-top. I was terrified when the alarm went off (about an hour and a half ago), then changed to shaky and angry and scared through the present time. I have to go off campus for lunch today and am afraid to get in my car and drive. Has anyone had this happen before? Normally I’m surprised (as this is the plan with fire drills), but I do not care much for this reaction.

    1. Cheezmouser*

      I’m sorry to hear that. Hope you feel better soon.

      I don’t have experience with PTSD, but my child is highly sensitive to loud noises, so her teacher provides headphones for any fire drills. It dampens the sound but she can still hear the alarm. Would something like this help in your case too?

    2. Humble Schoolmarm*

      I’m so sorry you’re going through this. I don’t have this reaction to fire drills, but my principal is very good at giving us a general heads up in the weekly newsletter (Ie. FYI Fire Drill Tuesday morning, please review exit doors in homeroom). Would your admin be supportive and open to letting you know in advance if you asked?

  89. anonalicious*

    One of my dearest and oldest friends recently had several competing job offers after a couple months’ search. She had never negotiated before, and she said she wasn’t going to do so. Well, all the the amazing women in our mutual friend group chat (we have all been friends for over 25 years) encouraged her to negotiate and offered pointers, and she did it! AND she got a much higher starting salary on top of choosing between different attractive offers. She thought she was going to take a pay cut compared to her last position, and now her starting salary is more than her last job. It made my heart grow three sizes to see this support and encouragement. So many people (particularly women) just need that extra cheering on, and I was so pleased it worked out for her. If you have people in your life you can encourage and offer negotiation tips, please do so!

  90. NewYork*

    My friend is head of our LGBTQ committee. She said at first they had good sign ups for events, but now virtually no one. She said this is not happening with other DEI groups (BIPOC, Asian American, etc) , they continue to get attendance, etc. She is convinced that a lot of this is backlash over trans issues (which are not relevant in workforce, but may be relevant in schools, sports etc). When she asks people why they stopped coming, they just say busy, etc. Any suggestions to help her out.

    1. freelancer that hates tax season*

      Honestly, my first thought was something more benign like that the LGBTQ’s events are less interesting/fun than the other DEI groups’ events or happen at more inconvenient times.

      1. Zona the Great*

        Yes or they produce less real-seeming-action. My guess would be the low attendance is how these are managed, unfortunately.

    2. Attractive Nuisance*

      What is the “LGBTQ committee”? Why does it exist? What are its goals?

      My experience is that LGBTQ groups are often less thoughtfully organized than other DEI groups. They serve a (speaking generally and stereotypically here) broader and more diverse community with less in common than other groups. I think there’s often a lack of clarity about what the group’s purpose is, which leads to a lack of interest. Your friend could survey the people who used to show up and ask what they want/need from the group. And tbh, it may be that they don’t want or need it at all.

    3. Kay*

      Without knowing just what the committee entails I would say 3 things.

      1. It isn’t just LGBTQ groups. I am involved with a number of different groups, and network with many more and this is an issue across the board of many I talk to. People are tired, people are busy, there are lots of “groups” out there. Unless you have a good membership engagement process this will happen. This leads to…
      2. The strength of the relationships between those running the group and the attendees. The stronger those relationships the more likely people will participate. This is an ongoing thing which must always be cultivated, new people brought in, etc.
      3. What are these events that you are doing? Are you holding fun events, having discussions, guest speakers, working on committee bylaws? Engagement can vary widely on whether what you are doing is of interest to your audience.

    4. pancakes*

      It’s kind of weird that your friend is convinced of that when she doesn’t seem to have any reasons to. It is certainly possible that other people in the group have picked up on her thinking and see it as being retrograde, divisive, and/or just plain bad guesswork.

      1. pancakes*

        I should add, fwiw, that I’m bi. I don’t think someone who doesn’t support trans rights should be heading a LGBTQ group. If that seemed to be the mindset of leadership I encountered, that would certainly discourage me from attending meetings.

  91. Me!*

    Friday fun! :D

    Job hunting isn’t producing any results right now, probably due to the holidays, so I was playing around with my LinkedIn profile. Because I am a huge nerd, I created this (offline) Avengers-themed revamp that starts out with:

    “So. You have a job opening to fill.
    You need someone to assist with your mission. I need money. Let me introduce myself.”

    It contains stuff like “Nerfed: I can’t fly or take the full force of a star,” and “Numbers are my Thanos,” along with, “You could be Nick Fury and guide me into a more specialized role as a true Avenger!”

    Admittedly, it’s pretty amusing. I know I can’t put that up on LinkedIn (oh boy, am I tempted!) but in a perfect world…

    What’s the weirdest thing you’ve ever seen on a profile or resume?

    1. Anon for this*

      I’ve seen a bunch, but hands down: Guy who had worked in an antique shop – “sold six antique maps, worth a total of $10,000, to a blind policeman.” And of course, this had absolutely nothing to do with the role they were applying for. The line raised more questions than it answered and I’m still musing about writing short story inspired by it!

      1. Me!*

        Oh wow. That’s so weird! Hahahaa, that sounds like it could be an episode of Sherlock.
        Please do, I would read the hell out of it!

  92. Emily Elizabeth*

    How do y’all balance giving people context to prep for a meeting with not just telling them everything in the moment? I find that frequently when I say to my director, “Hey, we’d like to have a meeting this week about X,” she’ll respond with some version of, “Oh, is everything alright with X?” or “What do you want to talk about?” If I say, “Just want to touch base on where we’re at with prep for X” she’ll launch into “Ok, I was talking to this person yesterday about these steps….” When the whole point of scheduling the meeting is to have a designated time to talk about X and give her all the details then. We have no regular meetings, just when an issue arises, and no central calendar system. I’m a teacher and so I know our norms are different, but I’m interested in hearing about how this is handled in the “normal” business world!

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      “We’ve scheduled a status meeting about Project X on Tuesday so we can all be aware of what’s going on. Please come prepared to tell us where you are with Tasks A through F, and to be ready to critique Wakeen’s work on Task G.”

      That being said, are you violating the “this meeting could have been an email” rule?

      1. Emily Elizabeth*

        Unfortunately my director is terrible at her email and prefers all discussions to be in person/it’s the only way we can nail down action steps from her.

    2. MissBliss*

      Instead of “We’d like to have a meeting this week about X” I would probably present it as “We’d like to have a meeting this week to talk about the prep work for X” so you’re giving the context there in the initial request.

      1. Emily Elizabeth*

        No, I humbly admire and respect SPED teachers but not me! Though if they figure out how to handle this communication let me know. :)

  93. Alexis Rosay*

    I left a job about 3 months ago. I gave 8 weeks notice and created extensive documentation of my responsibilities and work before I left. Since then, several former colleagues, including my former boss, have repeatedly reached out to me with simple work-related requests.

    I’ve been able to politely deflect all of these requests, which have become fewer over time, but it’s overall left me with the impression that people think I was doing certain tasks because I liked doing them, rather than because it was my job. It makes me feel like in retrospect, I was not respected as a professional, and I’m wondering what I need to change in the future to gain the respect I think I deserve. I always tried to be a cheerful, cooperative, team-oriented professional, but I’m wondering if I went too far.

    Has anyone experienced or seen someone who else who did? How did you change your behavior so that people understood you were doing a job as a professional, not because of your passion for it?

    1. usernames are anonymous*

      I think the only thing I’d change, unless it’s a bridge you don’t want to burn, is don’t respond to questions from previous job – or leave it at least 2 weeks before you respond. Sounds like they are just being lazy and it’s easier to ask you than figure it out themselves by looking at the documentation you left.

    2. PollyQ*

      I doubt it has anything to do with how people saw you or your professionalism. They’re just being lazy & selfish.

    3. ecnaseener*

      I’m curious where you get the impression that they thought you just liked doing those tasks.

      If it’s just from the fact that they’re asking you for help – I don’t think most people who do that are thinking “Alexis loved this work, they won’t mind!” More like, “Alexis will know what to do, and hopefully they’ll help out of the goodness of their heart.”

      My sweetest, most cheerful coworkers – I never got the impression that they love everything they do or are doing it for the sake of passion. (But I’m not in a field that people do just for the joy of it, maybe you’re in a field like that.)

      1. Alexis Rosay*

        Maybe it’s the only way I can make sense of their behavior to myself…

        For example, recently OldJob posted a new position. They reached out to ask me to pass it on, so I shared it with one professional group I’m in. A few weeks later, they emailed me the spreadsheet of outreach targets that I used to use when I recruited for them, and asked me who on on the outreach spreadsheet I’d contacted on their behalf this time. This made me think that maybe they believe I really like doing recruiting and outreach…otherwise, it just seems insane that they’d think I’d actually continue to do intensive recruiting and outreach for them when I don’t even work there.

        1. Chauncy Gardener*

          I think they’re trying to get you to keep doing your old job for free. Don’t reply to them for several DAYS, and then say, “Oh sorry, I’m so busy with NewJob that I don’t have time to assist”
          They may think you’re a bit of a pushover (I’m sorry for being too blunt) and are trying to take advantage of that.
          You no longer work there!!

          1. Alexis Rosay*

            No worries! Thank you for your reply. “Pushover” is a more concrete way of thinking about what’s wrong in this situation, and perhaps a bit easier for me to tackle.

        2. Gander*

          It’s a bit of a stretch to interpret it that way. Much simpler just to assume they are just hoping you’ll do the work for them because it’s easier for them. The sheer number of questions this site gets about similar situations shows that this is a very common thing.

  94. Wendy*

    I have a work situation I need help with.

    I previously posted about this situation to get advice, but I need more advice because other problems have come up regarding the issue.

    The issue is this…

    I currently work in the fuel center that is managed by a *major grocery store chain*.

    One of my duties is collecting product inside the store that is sold at the fuel center. The entire process includes 1) collecting the product, 2) scanning the product, and 3) having a member of store management verify the collected product.

    How long that takes depends on how many products need to be collected and scanned as well as how long it takes for a member of store management to come to the front of the store to verify the collected product. I must page a store manager when I am done collecting and scanning the products.

    Usually there is only one fuel center employee on staff for each shift.

    I have been told by the fuel center lead as well as by the manager over the fuel center that this is one of our job responsibilities that must be done 7 days a week.

    The grocery store is short-staffed, and so there is not another employee who can do this.

    When I am inside the store collecting product, the fuel center window is temporarily closed because there is no-one to relieve me or the other fuel center employees. So that means customers cannot pay cash at the window for fuel.
    The fuel pumps are available for self-serve only.

    Lately when I am inside the store collecting product, a member of store management pages me several times asking me how long it will take for me to finish or what time will I return to the fuel center. Yesterday I received many pages from the same assistant manager regarding this.

    Then a store employee told me that customers were complaining about the fact that there was no-one at the fuel center.

    A sign was posted at the fuel center stating that the fuel center clerk is collecting product inside the store, that the fuel center employee will be away for approximately an hour to two hours and to pay at the pump

    I need advice regarding 1) what to tell store management when I am continuously paged by them, 2) what to tell the store employee who told me that customers are complaining regarding no-one being at the fuel center, and 3) specifically what should the sign include.

    1. irene adler*

      Sounds to me like management does not comprehend that you cannot be at two places at the same time.

      Whether this is an unrealistic expectation or they are genuinely not aware of the issue, I don’t know.

      Does your direct supervisor understand what is going on here? Because this seems like it is THEIR issue to resolve (coordinating fuel center coverage while you fetch product/manager constantly paging you/store employee telling you about complaining customers). Where is your direct supervisor in all of this?

      As to the sign, again, your supervisor needs to direct this. But, if you know how long it takes for you to collect product, might put something like “attendant will return at 3 pm” (or what ever time you know you will return) so customers will know exactly when to look for you. Putting a definitive time on the sign is better than a “be back soon!” sign. AND, should you return early, all the better- in the customer’s eyes!

      Send that store employee to your supervisor. Every time they bring a complaint to you.

    2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd (ENTP)*

      Who is your actual manager? – they are probably the best placed to take this up with store management etc.

      This seems like a really inefficient way of doing things though. Could you suggest that you make a list (or however you normally decide what needs to be retrieved from the main building) and someone in the store does the ‘picking’ based on your list?

    3. My Brain Is Exploding*

      I would tell the store management what’s up (what your requirements are) and have them talk to the fuel center manager if they have further concerns I would tell the employee that the complaints should be sent to management of the fuel center because you are doing one of your main job requirements. Not sure about 3…do you mean a sign for the fuel center? “Currently Pay-at-Pump ONLY while re-stocking fuel center.” or something like that…

    4. WellRed*

      If it takes one to two hours to collect product (whatever that means) that is too long to leave fuel unattended. If I only have cash I can’t pay at pump. It’s above your pay grade but this is a mgt or workflow problem. They should bring product to you. I’d be so tempted with the multiple pages to say “I’d get this done faster if I didn’t have to keep answering pages.”

      1. Wendy*

        There is a process regarding collecting the product…..

        A hand held scanner is used to scan the product provided there is one available. Ideally it should be done early in the morning by the opener after doing the opening duties, but lately there have not been any hand held scanners available at that time.

        The product is collected, scanned, and then it has to be verified by a member of store management.

        So, you have to page a store manager to verify the product after collecting and scanning it.

        That means you are waiting for a store manager to arrive.

    5. Yesterday's Jam*

      This situation is ridiculous for you, OP.

      1) Adapt to your team speak, but something like “Copy, Assistant Manager. I’m on the floor collecting the llama drinks for the fuel station. There are 10 more items in the list. Can you meet me at the front in about 20 minutes for sign off?”
      2) You really don’t need to say anything to the employee. It’s not your fault, or theirs. You’re both in this situation because management put you there.
      3) Ask your manager to create the sign.

      Additional suggestions you’ve probably tried already:
      *Have this task done at open/close when customer traffic is light.
      *Find out if any store employee could collect the items so you can either zip out to check and sign off with the manager or have a manager deliver it to you.
      *Find out if the store could pull from back room inventory for you instead, or let you do that so you don’t have to bob and weave around a busy store.

      Hope something there is helpful!

      1. Wendy*

        There is a process regarding collecting the product…..

        A hand held scanner is used to scan the product provided there is one available. Ideally it should be done early in the morning by the opener after doing the opening duties, but lately there have not been any hand held scanners available at that time.

        The product is collected, scanned, and then it has to be verified by a member of store management.

        So, you have to page a store manager to verify the product after collecting and scanning it.

        That means you are waiting for a store manager to arrive.

        1. fhqwhgads*

          That means this is an inherently inefficient process and it’s management’s job to fix it. If they cannot be convinced of how counterproductive this is, then your boss sucks and isn’t going to change.

          1. Yesterday's Jam*

            Exactly right. Sorry, OP. You’re in a pretty impossible situation and it doesn’t sound like management wants to resolve it. I hope you can get out of there soon. You deserve better than continuing to beat your head against the brick wall of their incompetency.

  95. JustaTech*

    Does anyone have any recommendations for books/websites for advice for first time mentors?

    I’m supposed to be mentoring a more junior associate in another state (we haven’t actually managed to have a phone call yet, she works nights on the East Coast and I work days on the West Coast and we just haven’t managed to connect yet), and I’ve never really had a mentor (I tried with someone else in the program, but she acted as a second boss and then suggested I read the Medical Medium and I can’t have a mentor who’s basic good sense I question), so I could really use some suggestions on how to be a useful mentor and not a second boss or something.

    Thanks!

    1. Thursday Next*

      I do a lot of mentoring, and I generally start out by asking them to think/talk about what they want from the relationship. Do they want career advice? Guidance on a particular issue they’re facing? Once I know what they need, I tailor it accordingly. After that, set up a regular cadence of meetings and have an agenda ready. You may want to watch videos that you’ve found, or talk about a recent related article in the news, or suggest reading materials. You’ll want to be flexible and change course depending on their particular needs.

      Good luck!

  96. anon for this*

    Thanks everyone who commented yesterday on my question about not drinking at our holiday party. It turns out it’s a non-issue!! Funny story, when I was hired (during lockdown), I went out of my way to let people know that I like to go camping/hiking/climbing/skiing out in the wilderness partly as a way of maintaining work/life balance when work from home started encroaching too much on my off time. (“Oh I was out of service over the weekend while I was camping, but I’ll take a look at that now.”) Apparently, that means everyone knows me as being “athletic and outdoorsy” and no one really expected me to drink anyway :)

    2. ecnaseener*

      Huh, I didn’t realize that was a stereotype people had, that outdoorsy people don’t drink! Glad it worked out so nicely for you though :)

      1. HBJ*

        Yea, this is kind of hilarious to me. I’m used to the opposite stereotype – that everyone brings along a cooler of beer with them. There’s the whole culture of “apres ski (or apres outdoor-activity-of-choice), too, drinking and bar hopping after a day of skiing.

        But I’m glad it’s working for you.

        1. pancakes*

          Same, though with hikers rather than skiers. A round or two of drinks after tennis always seems to happen, too.

  97. Burnt eggs*

    I was reminded today of a (thankfully former) manager who 1. Said I should use emojis in my emails because they were more professional. And 2. Wanted to discipline me for not accepting meetings- I showed her how to check scheduling assistant AND reminded her she had months earlier asked for help in setting rules to trash those responses.

    So a cheer to sane and reasonable people and a curse on whachadoidles who get promoted based on friendships.

    Anyone have similar stories?

    1. Chauncy Gardener*

      What? OMG. There’s a few above, with the person who is on a PIP because she won’t keep her door open….

  98. CreepyPaper*

    UK folk – Plan B (or… whatever…) is looming and wfh is Back. We’ve been told to do wfh unless we absolutely need to go into the office for a valid reason. And as someone who is high risk I’m very high up on HR’s ‘stay the eff home’ list.

    All in person client meetings have been cancelled, they’re now all virtual. We weren’t having a Christmas party anyway, so no bother there.

    How are your offices handling the new rules or are you operating as you have been for the past few months? My doggos are going to be so confused when I don’t go to work on Monday!

    1. The Prettiest Curse*

      My department was on a hybrid working schedule (1 day/week in office, was supposed to rise to 2 days, but that never happened.) We got an email today telling us to work remotely until the start of January, but since I’m off the last 2 weeks of the year, it’s kind of academic at this point.

      I started this job earlier this year 100% remotely, so at least I’ve now met all of my colleagues…

    2. Peter*

      Thankfully we’ve been doing fairly well with the approach, so nothing’s changing (group of accountants in a multi-national business).
      I’m working from home unless I have a reason to go into the office, but that reason can include mental health.

  99. Pumpernickel Princess*

    Does anyone use a wiki app/site/tool for their org?
    I work at a teeny nonprofit that intentionally has a lot of turnover and training of volunteers and Americorps members. We are looking for a central place to put training/onboarding documents, reference sheets, checklists for events that happen every year, and the like. I’ve checked out OneNote, the Teams wiki function, Sharepoint, Nuclino, Confluence, and more, but all have their shortcomings. Personally, I prefer to roll with a really well organized file management system, but the amount of turnover and training we have makes it hard to file things consistently and efficiently across users.
    Do any of you use something like a wiki system in your office? Pros, cons, suggestions welcome! Thank you! (Tried to make this comment earlier but I think my web browser ate it, apologies if it ends up repeating.)

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I work in software development, and we use the wiki functionality of github.com. It’s pretty quick and easy to set up, you don’t have to have any actual software in there to use the wiki, and it tracks who makes edits.

      1. Pumpernickel Princess*

        Tracking who makes edits is great! Weirdly, it’s a missing feature in a LOT of the wikis I’ve looked at. I work about as far away from software development as you can get in a field that is infamously technophobic; is Github useful for projects outside of coding/web/software?

        1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          Sure is. You can build a directory tree in github with things like brochures and policy documents, and limit the wiki to office policies. Or just have the wiki by itself, with no other files. A wiki with nothing else is really idiot-proof.

  100. Halloooo!*

    Looking for good vibes, and advice, for leaving a job after a long stint. How to do self-care during time off between new jobs, articles to read to get my mental game on for making a big switch into my new job when I struggle with confidence issues & imposter syndrome, anything!

    1. irene adler*

      This is from a recruiter:
      start-and maintain- a brag book.
      This is a collection of your accomplishments (personal, professional), kind words folks have said about you/to you, positive job reviews, your educational achievements, a list of your skills/talents, etc. In short, all the things that give you a positive feeling.

      Give this brag book a perusal every time those negative feelings crop up.

  101. Marie*

    Tips on how to write thank you notes for a panel interview?

    I literally just got out of a Zoom interview with a panel of people, where some people talked and asked questions while others remained silent. I am planning on sending customized thank you notes to specific panelists based on the questions they brought up, but for the others I don’t really have anything from the interview proper to go off of. Any tips?

    Additional context: this was an initial screening interview as a faculty candidate in a STEM field.

    1. Midwest Manager*

      For those who didn’t say anything during the interview, generic but enthusiastic might work:
      “Thank you for taking the time to meet with me via Zoom on Friday. I enjoyed getting to know more about the organization and the role. I appreciated the opportunity to meet you, and I hope that we can connect more fully later in the process.”

      Good luck!

  102. Aerin*

    We’ve got a massive new crop of trainees right now, and I’m worried that one of them is about to get fired.

    Basically, we have all this oversight that we normally do for our new folks, but because there are so many of them right now, we haven’t been able to keep up with it in the same way. As we were circling back around to one of them, we discovered that did essentially no work for almost a full week. And all the folks who would normally have caught it very quickly were either too busy with all the other people still in earlier phases of training, or couldn’t keep track of who had moved on to what point and didn’t realize that this one should have been actively taking calls.

    And of course this all happened right before I left on vacation. So I wrote it all up for management, and we’ll see what they say. I’m not sure this would necessarily be a firing offense normally (although it would still be pretty damn serious) but we’ve already had attendance issues with this person. Then again, this person is apparently having some personal stuff going on that explained the attendance stuff, so maybe that’s the culprit here, too? And I’m pretty sure this is their first real office job. I’m kind of hoping that now they’ve gotten the message of “No actually we’re monitoring what you’re doing even though you’re WFH” it won’t be an issue again, because they might have just not known what the boundaries were? But it doesn’t speak very highly of their character, and they might be out of chances.

    It really bugs me, because I did a few of the interviews for this round of hiring and this person was the one who I said as a yes that we actually hired. And the managers were a bit iffy on this person but I thought they had potential. So I’m feeling like the problems we’re having with them now reflect badly on my judgment (even though I know that if something like this were going to come up in hiring, it would have been in reference checks which I did not participate in).

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Are you sure this is the new hire’s fault? Was she explicitly told “if you run out of training classes or things to do, contact Alice or Bob”? She may just be timid and trusting, figuring that you are the ones who need to tell her what to do, and if you haven’t told her anything then …. Or she sees that you’re all tremendously busy doing other things, and doesn’t want to bother you. Which are both possible for a first-time office worker.

      1. Aerin*

        It’s a call center, so they’re supposed to be inbound and taking calls unless otherwise scheduled. I won’t rule out the possibility that something about that message got garbled since I wasn’t the one to do their review session before they moved to taking solo calls (after working with a shadow)–but they have been inbound for some of that time, so they definitely knew how. And it only appears to have started after we told them they were moving out of the phase where we randomly dial in to listen to their live calls. They’ve also been attending daily meetings where all the new folks talk about they calls they took that day. I’m really trying to be charitable but am struggling to come up with an innocent explanation. (Even if it’s that they’ve been dealing with a personal crisis, I definitely told them during training that management is great at accommodating stuff, you just have to keep them informed. One of our other new folks took a full week off for bereavement with management approval, and another has clearance to continue coming into the office even after we sent the rest of them home because her living situation isn’t conducive to WFH.)

      2. ferrina*

        My mind went the same way, especially since this their first real job. Did they know what they were supposed to be doing? Do they know what to do if they run into an issue?

        1. ferrina*

          Ooh, just read your update. Yeah, that’s not a good look. I don’t blame mgmt if they decide to let this person go.
          Maybe in the future I’d be proactive about the personal crisis, offering accommodations instead of asking if they want any- often new folks and folks burned by previous bosses may be reluctant to ask for what they need. But this person seems like they were deliberately playing the system, so, yeah.

  103. Danger Noodle*

    This has come up in two meetings I have scheduled recently, and I wanted to ask if my writing was unclear.

    I type in an email that we need to schedule a 30 min meeting and are looking at 9:00AM-12:00PM, what would your availability be during that time? Twice now people have responded with ‘why is it a 30 minute meeting if you said it’s from 9AM to noon’. Is it not clear that I’m asking when they would have 30 minutes of availability during that timeframe? I don’t normally get this kind of confusion but it’s happened twice now in two weeks.

    2. Attractive Nuisance*

      Your wording isn’t clear to me. And I’m usually the one frustrated by others’ lack of reading comprehension!

    3. A Girl Named Fred*

      I swear, scheduling is one of those necessary evils that just makes me want to scream no matter how many times I’ve had to do it. (And I’ve had to do it a lot as a former admin! lol) I think your phrasing makes sense, but maybe adding a “between” into the 9am-12pm window would help? Something like,
      “Hi all, we’re looking to schedule 30 minutes between 9am and 12pm on X date to discuss Y project. Please let me know what your availability is in that window by Z. Thanks!”

      I’ve found the “between” and calling it a “window” (or “timeframe” like you said) helps differentiate that 9am-12pm availability window from a meeting scheduled for 9am-12pm, but your mileage may vary. Some people can just be very daft about emails, and it’s also possible that folks are just burnt out from Life as well as having some ‘upcoming holidays’ brain rot going on. Good luck getting it sorted out!

    4. Freelance Anything*

      ‘What is your availability between 9am-12pm for a 30 minute meeting?’

      Maybe just reordering it like that? Leading with the key request i.e. availability.

      I think ‘looking at 9am-12pm’ might be too suggestive that your’re looking at the whole period for the meeting.

      No one ever seems to read things (emails, signs, instructions, maps) so structuring is important as is being very specific with your word choice.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        This is what I do, and it seems to work fine. (At least, if people don’t get it, they don’t ask me for clarification, and they seem to figure it out well enough to get an answer.)

    5. Aerin*

      “sometime between 9am and noon” would probably be enough to clarify. It would probably take me a couple of reads to be certain of what you meant and that you hadn’t just mistyped one or more of the numbers.

    7. Thursday Next*

      I don’t ask ahead of time. When I’m scheduling, I can see everyone’s availability so I just pick an open time. If people can’t attend, they can decline or suggest an alternative time slot. Saves a lot of back-and-forth.

    8. AnotherLibrarian*

      Honestly, that phrasing wasn’t 100% clear to me. I’d say that trying some of the rewrites people suggest here might help.

    9. RagingADHD*

      Are you available Tuesday morning for a 30 minute meeting? We’re looking at sometime between 9 and noon, what would work best for you?

    10. fhqwhgads*

      Instead of “looking at 9:00AM-12:PM” say “looking for half an hour sometime between 9:00AM and 12:PM”.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        Also instead of “what would your availability be during that time”, try “what would your availability be during that window?”

    11. Fionulla*

      Yes, it’s unclear. You need to be specific and detailed in scheduling. With this wording, it’s not obvious whether you mean a thirty minute meeting or a meeting from 9-12 – it comes across as if one or the other is a mistake, and it isn’t clear which. I’ve received so many emails with scheduling info that is jumbled, confusing or contradictory that I would absolutely reply the way you are finding people respond to you.

  104. Freelance Anything*

    I may be a little late to get a response (and it may be too work-related?) but:

    Has anyone ever studied in a new field abroad? As in the institution is in a different country to your original study/current home.

    It’s something I’ve been toying with but there’s a language barrier to overcome, cultural differences etc. as well as just relocating with visas etc.

    I’m super interested in hearing any experiences of this, good and/or bad. Or any concerns that you would have if you were gonna do it! Just in case I’m overlooking something.

    Thanks ^_^

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I haven’t done it, but I’ve had a number of international students work for me, and I’ve had employees leave to go study internationally.

      Pick an institution you might be interested in and find the international students section of their admissions and student life departments. These people do this stuff for a living, day in and day out, and they generally have it down to a science. Just looking at the table of contents/menus for that will give you a leg up on the things to research and the questions to ask.

      Most major research universities in Europe will have an English translation of all that stuff, even if the native language of the country isn’t English. And they may even offer some degree programs and courses in English.

    3. pancakes*

      I’m not certain this is what you’re asking, but I did a study abroad semester in India while I was in college in the US. It was an incredible experience, and if I could do undergrad over again I’d try to also take advantage of other, full-year study abroad programs my own college offered. (The program I attended was run by another school). Visas are something the program itself can typically help arrange. My biggest concern at the time was making sure that my college would give me full credits for that semester, and as it was an unusual program, I had to make my case that they should. It took two meetings with a dean to obtain approval, and the reason they did end up granting it was that I found a similar course being offered on campus the following year. I wanted to study abroad during grad school as well, but that would’ve been trickier to arrange due to stricter course crediting (and, eventually, professional licensing) issues in my course of study.

      Language and cultural barriers are going to vary widely depending on where you’re coming from, where you’re going, and your comfort with unfamiliar places and situations.

      Speaking very generally, it is easier to travel as a student than as a graduate, due to the variety of programs available. If it’s something you’re interested in it’s well worth looking into.

  105. Junior Dev (not a dev anymore)*

    I got fired from a software engineer job 2 months ago because I was too burned out and depressed to focus on work and wasn’t getting anything done. I’m now doing intensive therapy and generally focusing on my health. I want to get a part-time job doing something physical, like landscaping or package handling or maybe washing dishes, but I am really intimidated by applying to those jobs. I don’t know how to make a resume when the last relevant job I had was a decade ago in college (dishwasher and server in a cafeteria). I have also done volunteer work cooking for homeless youth and handing out food at a food bank, for the past 4 years.

    How do I apply for these jobs? Any suggestions on ones that might be hard physically but not mentally, and not require a lot of social contact (so no direct customer service) and where to look for them? I am probably overthinking this but I am too intimidated to start right now.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I was in your shoes about 15 years ago.

      If you’re willing to adjust your schedule, check into major retailers that need late shifts for stocking the shelves. Grocery stores, Target, Lowes, etc. Most of them have very straightforward application processes that don’t need a 2-page resume and a cover letter, etc.

    2. Freelance Anything*

      This is dependent on where you are financially, but I’d look at continuing to volunteer for the moment and building a CV around just your volunteer work.

      Then perhaps approaching small, local businesses for any landscaping work or maybe there’s a DIY/Hardware store that needs part-time help with stock.

      I’m mostly thinking local businesses because they’re (potentially) more likely to just appreciate the help and may be more open to a conversation about your career change, when previous work history comes up.

      And by all means, put a summary of all your Dev work on your CV, under the relevant volunteer work. Highlighting your computer skills, managing deadlines etc. as all of those are transferable and useful.

    3. WellRed*

      This is also dependent on where you are but so many places are begging for help! Snow shoveling or other landscape property maintenance might work for now. Package handling? Stocking shelves?

    4. A Girl Named Fred*

      Ha, apparently I was typing while your comment was being posted! (I posted a sort of similar question below.) I’m maybe two months behind you in this process, so I just wanted to commiserate and wish you luck with your health, therapy, and the part-time job search. This random internet commenter is rooting for you!

    5. pancakes*

      Your volunteer work sounds very relevant and useful experience to have for what you want to be doing. Are the food banks and organizations that serve the homeless in your area relying entirely on volunteers? In my city it’s a mix of volunteer and paid work, and there are some interesting jobs in these organizations (City Harvest, etc.). Check out the Good Food Jobs website, which has a page of resources in addition to job listings. It’s at goodfoodjobs dot com.

  106. Cheezmouser*

    Am I being unfair to my new boss?

    I’m a senior manager in my department. My new boss recently got promoted to department head. I’ve been chronically overworked and am falling behind on projects despite doing overtime, so I asked him if I could reassign some projects, step back from a few, and deprioritize others. He asks me how I’m currently spending my time and if I could be overestimating the scope or workload required. I answer straightforwardly but internally I’m starting to get annoyed. I’m an experienced professional who has been in my role for 5+ years and in the industry 15+ years. I know how much work these types of projects require (short answer: a lot, usually more than we expected) so the suggestion that I might not be estimating my workload accurately was irritating. I was very clearly stating to him that I can’t deliver on all these deadlines and so I propose delaying project A and stepping back from team B so that I balance my workload while minimizing the impact on team projects.

    I suspect that my new boss is not used to managing senior managers. Up until this point he has managed assistants, interns, and mid level associates, who typically need more help prioritizing their workload. I don’t think he expected me to prioritize it myself, which I’m used to doing and have been for many years, and thus was questioning me to try to help.

    Am I being unfair to get annoyed by this?

    1. ferrina*

      I’d be annoyed, but I think you’re right that this could be part of your boss’ learning curve. This is a question I generally ask my junior staff but wouldn’t dream of asking my senior staff. Another thing I’ve found is that if the subject area is new, the boss can require some education on the lift and timelines of projects.

      Hopefully he figures it out and learns to trust you quickly. If he keeps micromanaging, I’d be concerned- I had a boss that never trusted my timelines and chronically overworked me for 2 years, and no amount of education would ever change that (and believe me, I tried).

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Not knowing the exact nature of his questions makes it hard to know for sure. I can see why you might be annoyed- it’s troubling to have a manager suggest you might not be managing your time well. However, I think I’d give him the benefit of the doubt. He’s new. He doesn’t know if you’re managing your time well. Part of his job is to find that out as a new manager, so maybe give him some grace this once and then see how it goes in the future.

      1. Cheezmouser*

        Yeah, you’re probably right, it’s probably just learning curve for him and I should be more patient. However, my new boss knows me and my work. We were previously peers and have worked in the same department (different teams) since I joined. He knows I’m a top performer who is widely respected within the department.

        The questions themselves were normal enough at first: How are you spending your time now? How much time is project A taking? How much time is project B taking?

        I think it was the follow-up questions that annoyed me, stuff like, “Since you’re just starting to scope out project B, how can you be sure how large it will be?”

        (The answer: because this is not my first rodeo. I don’t know exactly how big it will be, but I’m experienced enough to know that it will range from “huge” to “ginormous.” That’s the whole reason why I requested this conversation. I’m being proactive by telling you what I need to do in order to have the required bandwidth.)

        You’re right though, I should be patient and allow him to learn that he can trust me to accurately gauge my workload and make strategic decisions about priorities. I’ll remind myself not to take it as him questioning my judgment.

  107. A Girl Named Fred*

    Hey folks! Has anyone ever left office jobs to return to something like retail, and then eventually made the switch back to office work? Can you share how and why you made each change?

    I’m ramping up my job search again but I’m trying to figure out what jobs to target. I’m not especially interested in going back to my previous line of work (AA/EA) unless I found an organization I was invested in, and I already didn’t get a position with my top choice in the area. Which is fine! But I’m wondering if, rather than try to summon half-truths of why I’m “excited” to apply for an office job that I’m mostly applying to begrudgingly, maybe I should check into getting totally out of an office for a bit and use that time to get my mental health in order, work on some personal goals, and actually figure out a career that I want to pursue. But I’m nervous about the viability of getting back into office work once I leave it, as well as getting over my general reservations about retail (which are things like “I don’t like working with customers but could target back-end support roles”, “I’d be sad to give up at least partial work from home and am not sure what the pay would be like,” not things like “retail is beneath me.” Just for the record!)

    Anyone have any advice, experience, or general thoughts to offer? Thank you!

    1. ferrina*

      I haven’t done this, but as a hiring manager, it doesn’t tell a clear story. I look for the story in a resume- did these positions go in a linear path, and when the path curved, can I see why? (oh, you had an opportunity to do hands-on research on the psychological impact of proximity to kittens? yep, that makes sense)

      What do you want in a job? You don’t say that. What do you like doing all day? What type of environment do you like being in? Sometimes there are answers that obviously point to a career (“I like being outside all day!”) and sometimes there’s a range of careers (“I like spending at least a couple hours talking to other people, but I need a couple hours to not talk to other people”). Are you just looking to leave this job, or are you seeking for something else in your next job?

    2. Soup of the Day*

      I did this. It was very easy to go from office work to retail and no one even questioned my reasons, but I think that the main reason I was able to easily go back to office work is that I left the retail work off my resume entirely. I was freelancing at the time so I just included the freelance work to fill the gap and no one asked questions, but I honestly think you could just leave the gap and if asked, say you took some time away to focus on a health issue that has since been resolved. I hate that working retail is seen as a “step down” for many offices, but I don’t think I would have been hired as easily if I had included a job that was so far away from the office work I was applying for. And in general it’s better for resumes to only include relevant work experience, so there would be no requirement to include it.

      I don’t think your only options are “retail” or “office work you don’t enjoy,” though. What if you ramped up your job search to include other types of work, or found work with a temp agency where you could try out different types of positions? There are part-time office jobs out there, too!

      1. A Girl Named Fred*

        Totally agree on hating that retail is looked at as a “step down” by a lot of people. My partner works retail and they’re 10x more satisfied with their work than I am, incredibly knowledgeable about the work, and really kick ass at what they do. I’d be lucky to find the same!

        Re: your second paragraph, I logically know you’re right but I think I’m getting stuck on “not being qualified” for much work beyond generic admin positions (IE, I don’t have a degree in IT or Design or anything – mine’s in Theatre.) I pick up on things quickly and think I could be trained to do damn near anything, but that’s a hard sell when there are so many other folks out there right now with stronger resumes. The temp agency isn’t a bad idea – I got my last position through a temp agency – and that might let me dip my toe into several things and build up some of that experience, too. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

    3. cobb salad*

      Personally I think you should take the time off. You don’t know when that opportunity will come back up again and it sounds like you could really use the recovery time! If employers ask, there’s so many reasons: it’s COVID, you wanted to recover mentally, you wanted to take time to make sure you knew what you wanted. If you can afford to do it you will probably really enjoy the personal benefits you get from getting to make your life about you for a while.

      I did go from an office, to retail, back to an office. I left my office job to go back to school and took a retail position temporarily while in school. I quit almost immediately — I hadn’t worked retail in years and I realized I just have 0 tolerance for most of what they expect from you. I didn’t want to stand all day, I didn’t want to talk to people all day, the pay was horrible (especially coming from what I’d been making before / COL in my city), and I found it boring. In my interview, they were very aware of my background and I even said my biggest weakness was getting bored easily yet they still hired me haha when in my opinion that should’ve shown I wasn’t a good fit. I wasn’t there for very long so I left it off my resume, took nine months to just focus on myself and school, and then got back into an office job when the pandemic happened and school was on hold. I wasn’t questioned about my time off at all but even if I hadn’t been in school, I would have said I was focusing on myself and recovering from exhausting projects at previous jobs. If an employer would’ve had an issue with it, to me that was a sign I didn’t want to work there as I don’t like companies that are shocked when people decide to take long periods of time off.

      1. A Girl Named Fred*

        Ha, it’s funny you say that – I’ve actually been off work since June for exactly these reasons! For the interviews I’ve had recently I’ve used very similar language to what you proposed – dealing with a health issue, recovering from burnout with everything in the last year(s), etc. – but so far nothing has worked out. I do still have some savings but I want to start looking seriously before I get to “desperate” territory, so I can still be at least somewhat picky.

        I’m nervous about getting into retail for a lot of the same reasons you mentioned. I do think having freelance experience during the same time would help the “back to office” transition, or set me up to pursue freelance/entrepreneurship while using the retail/day job to pay bills. A lot to think about for sure! Thank you for sharing your experience though!

  108. soVeryAnon*

    I’ve been working as an independent contractor for a few years and am thinking about looking for a regular job instead. I’m trying to figure out what I need to think about before I make any big moves. Any advice would be appreciated!

    Some Pros and Cons
    I like being able to set my own hours, but I have no paid vacation/sick days, and it’s hard to take a real vacation when I’m the main person doing this type of work.
    Have to deal with billable hours and more tax stuff.
    Have to estimate the time a project will take.

    Then again, with regular work, there will also probably be long annoying meetings, a requirement to occasionally visit the office, etc.

    1. irene adler*

      I’ve heard that some companies don’t/won’t hire independent contractors for permanent jobs as they might not be able to conform to the rules of regular job. So maybe have a script in mind about what is attractive about the regular job that you are willing to give up the ‘freedoms’ of independent contractor life.

      1. pancakes*

        As in, too free-spirited to follow instructions or be reliable workers? That is not a mindset I’ve encountered, thankfully. It’s pretty ridiculous. If a company doesn’t trust its own contractors to that degree it needs to take a long, close look at its hiring and supervisory processes.

        I did once encounter a woman who, while onboarding me for a full-time staff job from a contract attorney position, told me I “must have enjoyed the freedom of” contract work, but that was a lousy guess on her part, and I tried to be as polite as I could manage in pointing out that no, I was really looking forward to having better health insurance and paid time off. Over time it emerged that she was off-base about other things as well, and I was happy to see her made redundant after a merger.

  109. Coenobita*

    Excuse me for shouting but MY EMPLOYER JUST ANNOUNCED THEY ARE CLOSING THE WHOLE ORGANIZATION THE LAST WEEK OF DECEMBER AND WE DON’T HAVE TO USE VACATION. Free days off! Woohoo!

    2. Soup of the Day*

      Holy moly, I misunderstood this as “closing the organization” as in, FOR GOOD. That certainly would also have been “free days off,” but maybe not in the way anyone wanted. As it is, WOO! Congrats!!

  110. Cheap Ass Rolls*

    A department adjacent to mine announced that they’re hiring internally for a manager position. In the past couple years I’ve been developing as a leader, with the intent to move into management (with the encouragement of my leaders). I’d like to throw my hat in the ring for this – if I don’t get it, I’ll have shown my interest in these kinds of positions, and in my company, that’s a big thing.

    If AAM has taught me anything, it’s that management is tough and there are way more bad managers than there are good managers. Does anyone have particular books about management and leadership for early-career managers/individual contributors looking to stretch into that kind of role?

  111. Dragon*

    Has anyone interviewed for a job, was passed over with no reason given, and later they came back and offered it to you?

    I was passed over for a job I thought I’d really like. Whatever the reason, I think it was on their end. If it was on mine, I wouldn’t have expected to get the second interview.

    As it happened, shortly afterward something happened in my life that would have disrupted a new job. But I would like to hear other people’s experiences on this.

    1. Soup of the Day*

      Yes! I applied for a job, didn’t get it, got a different job instead, then two years later reapplied for the first job and got it. In my case, the skills and experience I gained from that interim job made a huge difference, as they were all things an ideal candidate for the first job would have had.

      You’re right that it was probably on their end if you think your resume and cover letter were really good but didn’t get an interview. Still, if you do apply again in the future, I would be sure to change them up just in case.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t now if I’ve had that exact experience, but it’s possible that they offered it to another candidate, who refused the offer, and then they offered it to you next. Or it’s possible they had an internal miscommunication and actually wanted to offer it to you but flubbed things.

    3. ferrina*

      I’ve been on the other end of this- I declined a candidate, then came back about a month later to offer the job.

      What happened behind the curtain: The candidate was our #2, but the #1 had a certain qualification that would have looked really good to our clients. Candidate #1 accepted the offer and started but only lasted 3 weeks. Turns out he lied about his technical skills and didn’t have some really basic skills that we need. Oh, and he was drama. It was quickly clear it wasn’t going to work so we cut him loose, and since it had only been a month, we reached out to #2 to offer her the job.

  112. magical*

    My company has had raises frozen for the last year due to COVID (I started in March, so I got there after they froze them). It is a project based industry where people have contracts only until the end of the project, usually a year or two at most. Sometimes people are asked to stay on at companies afterwards. In August, I was asked to stay for an additional year and I agreed.

    A few weeks ago, HR announced that the raise freezes will be lifted and people will slowly start to get them applied with those who have waited the longest getting theirs first. As I wasn’t even thinking of asking for one until next year, this didn’t make me think much. But after the meeting I wondered how this would affect COL/inflation increases. When I asked HR about this, they said there were not sure when this would be applied as they had only recently lifted raise freezes.

    Asides the fact that in my opinion, a raise freeze shouldn’t apply to a COL adjustment as they are not the same thing, what do you all think is an okay timeline to wait before asking about this again? The industry has not been hurt by COVID — if anything we have a problem of companies not being able to hire because there are too many projects that have been green lit and talent is scarce. My company currently does not have another project lined up but I don’t really think this would be relevant because they extended me knowing this was the case. This is the first time I am really pushing for a COL adjustment (previously it was either automatic or I had no idea to ask for it) so I’d love some advice on if my frame of mind is correct and how long to wait to ask again.

    1. Midwest Manager*

      Some companies/industries don’t do COL adjustments at all. If this company is one that does (and has made it clear that *usually* they happen), it is possible that those would coincide with the company’s fiscal cycle. You could ask your supervisor about the company’s history on this, and when COL adjustments are usually applied. Then use that to figure out a timeline for asking about future adjustments.

      1. magical*

        Thanks! I don’t know if they usually do them but to be honest, they need to be doing it regardless haha and I want to be a vocal supporter / asker of it. I just also don’t want to annoy HR more often than I need to

    2. ferrina*

      Many of the companies I’ve worked for included COL as part of a raise. Usually it was that COL was the baseline, and merit was an adjustment to that baseline. So COL was 2%, but you did great work, so you get a +2% adjustment for 4% raise. If there’s a line for raises, COL likely isn’t going to be done separately.

    3. Enough*

      “.. a raise freeze shouldn’t apply to a COL adjustment as they are not the same thing, …”
      But really they are as both result in a raise in salary. COL generally comes into play in union contracts as there are not merit based raises. Raises otherwise are what I call the cost of doing business. that is what do you need to do to keep or acquire talent that doesn’t increase the company costs so they lose business.

      1. carrot*

        I’d argue the difference though is one keeps a paycheque in line with what it was last year (COL) whereas the other one is merit based and actually increases it (raise). So only one actually results in a raise in salary value.

  113. Lucy Skywalker*

    In 2018 I left my job to go to graduate school. Through 2018 and 2019, I was in a couple part-time jobs. I was fired from both due to communication issues caused by my nonverbal learning disability, and I have since learned that my disability is more severe than I previously realized. I now understand how important it is to disclose my disability and the accommodations I need to my supervisor.
    I was at both jobs for only a few months, and I have left them both off my resume, as I was told to. I was offered a part-time job in early 2020, but was unable to start due to the pandemic. So I have been unemployed since 2019, but according to my resume, I have been unemployed since the summer of 2018. My parents told me to tell employers in the interviews that I looked for part-time work in 2018, 2019, and the beginning of 2020 but wasn’t able to find any; and then due to COVID I had to stop job hunting because everything was locked down.
    I am now about to graduate and I am looking for full time employment.
    Then I read this article, from none other than Alison herself : https://getpocket.com/explore/item/if-you-were-fired-don-t-lie-about-it-in-a-job-interview-do-this-instead?utm_source=pocket-newtab
    So now I’m wondering if I should edit my resume to include the two part-time jobs I was fired from. Or should I just leave them off because they were part-time and I didn’t last long at them?

    1. Soup of the Day*

      If I understand correctly, I think Alison’s advice is more for if you had worked at those jobs for a long time and wanted to be able to use that experience on your resume/talk about it in a job interview. If they were short-lived part-time positions, it’s not dishonest to leave them off your resume. I would mention the job that you were unable to start due to COVID, as that’s out of your control. But in general a resume should showcase your best, most relevant work experience. There’s no obligation to include every job you’ve had, especially if the job didn’t really meaningfully contribute to your growth as an employee.

      If you were in grad school during the gap, though, I think you’re less likely to be asked about that time of your life anyway! They’ll probably just think you were busy with school or were working part-time jobs that are unrelated to your desired field.

      1. ferrina*

        Yeah, I’d lean into the grad school. If you have the luxury to not work while you’re in grad school, a reasonable person wouldn’t think to push on that. I wouldn’t include the jobs on your resume, since they really won’t add anything.

  114. Courtney*

    Any advice on sounding out potential references if I’m not sure they’d be willing?

    Long story short, I spent five years with my last company. Four of those years were spent under Alex, a manager who hated me. It was a running “joke” on the team that Alex despised me, multiple people mentioned her treatment of me in their exit interviews, and at one point my grandboss was concerned enough by the way she spoke about me that he scheduled a meeting with me to ask if I was okay. Another manager in the division (Bob) wanted to poach me, so grandboss facilitated that to get me out of the situation I was in.

    Unfortunately, being in that situation for so long had pushed me to a point where I couldn’t function at that company anymore. I had barely been keeping it together before, and I struggled significantly in the new role. Bob was dragging his feet over putting me on a PIP, but I knew I wasn’t going to get any better, so I resigned.

    So that’s four years doing great work for a manager who hated me, followed by a year of increasingly disappointing work for a manager who liked me. I walked away accepting that I wouldn’t have any manager-level references from my time there. I took some extended time off and am now doing contract work for the family business, but it’s time to get back out there.

    Bob and I recently ran into each other at a wedding, and when we said our goodbyes he said to let him know if I needed a reference. It was such a quick comment that I’m honestly not sure if he meant it or not – it’s understood that if I hadn’t quit he would have had to fire me, but I think he also blames himself since from his perspective I was doing just fine before he pushed grandboss to transfer me.

    Any advice on how best to sound him out, or if I should even consider taking him up on this at all?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I know that if I ran into an ex-employee and didn’t intend to give them a reference, I’d just sign off by saying “See you around.”

      If Bob went out of his way to offer being a reference, take him up on it. I don’t think you even need to sound him out.

      1. ferrina*

        Absolutely. If you’re not sure, see if you can get (virtual) coffee with him to catch up and ask him if he was serious. He might feel bad that you were stuck under Alex so long and feel like this is a chance to redeem himself!

    2. Kay*

      I would certainly take him up on it! I like the coffee idea, and from there you can ask how his work is going and delve into your time with him or whatever comes up organically. If he isn’t already aware I think talking to him about the toll the previous 4 years took on you and expressing your appreciation for all he did might make sense. If he has a better understanding of your circumstances, he might be in a better position to give you a more positive reference. You have a better feel for whether you could speak frankly about your concerns on what a reference might look like, but at least having the conversation is the best way to find out. If he threw the offer out there after all this time I think it says something about the value he placed on you.

      It sounds like you were able to work with professionally under challenging circumstances while still producing excellent work – that is an accomplishment!

  115. Whoops*

    I started a new 40-hour/week job a few months ago. One or two days a week, I’ll end up leaving late because as I’m saying goodbye, I end up chatting with someone about work or non-work things. I’ve been ending up with 15 to 45 minutes of overtime each week. The majority of the time I end up leaving late it’s because I was talking to my boss, so I figured she was aware of it and didn’t care.

    My boss was looking at timesheets today and had me leave a little early to avoid getting overtime, so I guess I’m actually not supposed to be getting overtime.

    What’s a good way to leave at the end of the day without getting caught up in a conversation? Or what’s a polite way to say I can’t talk because I need to clock out? In every job I’ve ever been in, I’ve had people complain to me about how I don’t talk enough or how I’m too quiet (even when I make an effort to talk and be friendly), so I’m worried about people thinking there’s something wrong with me for not being chatty at the end of the day.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Have a valid excuse. Gym time, errands, planning on making something involved for dinner, want to avoid traffic, etc. And of course you can just say “the boss wants me to be careful of my hours.”

      If it’s non-work stuff, you ought to clock out before you have that kind of conversation.

      1. Whoops*

        Mentioning traffic is a good idea because it’s true (my commute used to be pretty short, but traffic got much worse a few weeks ago for some reason and doubled my commute time).

        The machine I have to clock out on is near the exit, so it’d be kind of a long of a walk to go clock out and then return to see if anyone wants to talk about non-work stuff. I wish I could just clock off on my computer before shutting it down.

    2. Soup of the Day*

      Can you start wrapping up earlier? You don’t have to actually leave – just start gathering your things so people know you’re on your way out and can bring up any last-minute things.

      Or feel free to interrupt the person! Say “I’m sorry, let me clock out really quick and I’ll get right back to you.” Of course then you risk having actual work conversations that you’re not getting paid for, but maybe if people are aware that you’re off the clock, they’ll be more mindful about the work-related things. If not, maybe you could say “Do you think you could shoot me a brief email about this? I’ve already clocked out for the day but can get to it first thing in the morning!”

      1. Whoops*

        Wrapping up earlier and asking people to e-mail me questions are good ideas too. Right now, I’m wrapping up just early enough to clock out on time if I don’t end up chatting at all. If I wrap up a little earlier, that’ll give me time to chat for a second and give excuses about needing to leave.

    3. ferrina*

      Literally say “Hey, I need to clock out.” Everyone understands the time clock (and if they don’t, that’s a different problem). If you’re having a social chat, clock out then come back and chat a bit more. If you’re talking to your boss, try to give her a head’s up- “Hey, just so you know I’ve got about 5 minutes before I should clock out. Or do you mind if I clock a few minutes of OT for this?”

      2. Whoops*

        Now that I’m thinking of it, I’m the only hourly employee on my team, so I’m the only one that needs to clock out. That might be contributing to the problem.

  116. Bluebonnet*

    If I am working full-time while doing graduate school part-time, should I mention that I am a part-time student on my resume?

    Currently, I list the graduate program and anticipated graduation date in my resume. Then, I mention that I am a part-time student in my cover letter. However, I have not been getting interviews. I am concerned that potential employers are screening me out because they think I am a current full-time student.

    Thank you for any feedback!

      1. Bluebonnet*

        The problem is that I am changing fields and my grad degree is in the field where I wish to transition.

        All my work experience is in Field A, while I want to transition to field B. I have nothing on my resume that seems relevant to Field B besides my in-progress grad degree, and a graduate practicum I do part-time.

        1. Bluebonnet*

          Perhaps I should do a profile about being a part-time grad student and transitioning to Field B. Still thinking….

        2. ferrina*

          Ah, well disregard my previous advice :) In that case I’d take a second look at your resume and cover letter- they are going to need to be extra strong. It can be really hard to enter a new field without an experience in that field. One way to stand out is to show how your experience in Field A translates into Field B (and make sure to highlight your accomplishments in Field A!)

          1. Kay*

            Seconding what ferrina said!

            Your cover letter needs to be extra solid and demonstrate how, between your grad work and any transferrable skills from Field A, that you would be a good fit for Field B. Your resume can be reworked to help highlight any of those skills and accomplishments that may cross over – I don’t know your fields, but is there something, anything? There are usually a few skills that are transferrable no matter what the job.

            What skills would be helpful in Field B – attention to detail, forging strong relationships, highly organized, time management skills, photographic memory, juggle for 8 hours straight? Find examples in Field A of accomplishments that would demonstrate how you used those skills and showcase those on your resume. Good luck!

    2. Daisy*

      When I was in a similar situation, instead of listing my degree program and anticipated grad date, I had a category that was something like “Other Education” or “Relevant Coursework” and listed relevant courses and dates. In your cover letter, you can mention that you’ve been taking courses in XYZ and hope to transition to that field.

  117. Monkey Fracas Jr.*

    I’m afraid that I’m wasting my time at a new job. I’ve been at this job for 6 months. It was sort of a pandemic desperation job after I got laid off of my dream job in early 2020. It’s in an industry that I didn’t care about before, and now having been in it for half a year, I actively dislike.

    I do creative work, and it’s the type of work that is always public-facing. I have a lot of work from my last job that people see and like and is winning awards. This current job, however, has decided that my work has to be 100% internal-facing. I hate this. I have a huge fear that I’m going to come out of this job with nothing to add to my portfolio. Also the pay and benefits are bad.

    It’s a really good company though. Everyone is nice, everyone leaves the office at 5pm on the dot, I never take my work home with me, there’s zero drama, zero gossiping. But I feel like my abilities are being wasted and that I’ll have nothing to show for this job, and on top of it all I feel like no one here needs what I do. My job title isn’t one that’s typically found in this industry. My coworkers don’t seem to benefit from my contributions.

    I don’t know if I’m looking for advice, or just to vent. I’m feel very frustrated and stuck.

    1. ferrina*

      Well, you aren’t happy. That’s a good reason to start looking. And now you have valuable information about what you want in a job- you like being public facing and feeling like your work is needed. That’s good to know!

      Start looking, and be picky about your next job. You’re in a nice, secure place for now, so you already have a fallback plan. Good luck!

    2. Kay*

      If the pay & benefits weren’t bad I might suggest looking into freelancing on the side for some public facing work if that is of interest to you – but with bad pay & benefits the great environment doesn’t sound like it can save it.

      I would suggest dusting off that resume..

  118. Fleezy*

    This is more exasperated shouting into the void, but in the last 2 months my company has:
    -had 5 senior staff members from the corporate office jump ship with no explanation or notice, including my direct supervisor,
    -swapped my classification from hourly to salaried exempt, essentially giving me a pay cut of $3-5K annually in unpaid overtime, but then..
    -also docked my “salaried exempt” pay by 2.5 hrs for time I missed to go to 3 intermittent FMLA covered medical appointments for my daughter during one pay period, and finally..
    -hastily promoted two managers of satellite locations to positions as regional managers to replace my boss and another of the no-longer-employed regional managers. Right now, one of these new regional managers is using the reply-all feature of email to defend the ethics of a marketing plan that she came up with and immediately ordered all locations to implement, which is to offer rewards in exchange for positive online reviews, after having the wisdom of such a plan questioned (also on reply-all) by the existing regional manager.
    I could also mention that they are already undergoing an audit by the DOL because of mishandling our 401K, but that started last year instead of in the last two months. And I’m just sitting here questioning whether the unheard of 7-minute Bay Area commute, relatively easy work, and high-for-the-market pay rate is actually worth it for all this drama as I eat my popcorn and watch the fight unfold in my email. TGIF!!

  119. Anon for This*

    I’m baffled – does anyone else have any advice here?

    To set the scene – I have a mentee in my industry who is the head of a small division in a branch of Bananacrackers Inc. Mentee reports to the same C suite officer as the Admin Manager of the branch who also handles certain HR functions, but there isn’t really a defined hierarchy as to who ranks higher between the Admin & Division Manager. The industry has a history of poor management with some drinking culture thrown in, and in current times has been struggling to find staff (go figure).

    Recently at a company hosted event with an open bar, one of the employees in Mentees department decided to drive home after drinking. Not stumbling down drunk but far past the possibility of being within the law. This was after Employee was told by Mentee in no uncertain terms that they were not to drive, and arrangements would be made by the company to take care anything necessary to accomplish that. The arrangements were more than a simple cab and included the designated sober party planner as well as C suite officer. Employee stubbornly pushed back, and Mentee asked Admin Manager to help convey to Employee they were not to drive. Well, Admin Manager apparently told Employee it was okay to drive home, which they did.

    With knowing that though Employee has some aspects of their performance that aren’t perfect but are otherwise are a very good employee, plus with the current struggle to find staff, I advised Mentee that there should be a stern discussion about the expectation Employee not drink and drive. I also advised there be a discussion with Admin Manager about handling future events differently, so this doesn’t happen again, and to raise concerns with the decision to tell the employee to drive home. Hello corporate liability! Impacts to productivity! Destroying employee lives! And let us not forget about possibly KILLING people!!! From Admin w/HR responsibilities no less!! Aargh!!
    Well – I guess I shouldn’t have been surprised that conversations to say “I don’t think its okay for employees to drink & drive after drinking too much of our booze” went worse than I imagined. Admin Manager doubled down with an argument that was effectively “but they only had 2 drinks an hour not 3-they were fine!” and Employee went the nothing to see here route. While C suite officer agrees with Mentee, they don’t have lots of extra time to deal with things.

    One thing that came up was whether this should impact the annual bonus for Employee. Mentee had previously been struggling with what to do as Employee had some minor but not too egregious performance issues. Some of the personality traits leading to those performance issues were at play in this situation with Employee and should things have gone worse there have could have been serious consequences to the company. So, I see the argument that this could be factored in – and this isn’t a company that has taken a hit with COVID – they have all been doing extremely well. Not that it makes what they happened better, but if they had otherwise taken paycuts, etc. I might struggle more with this possibility.

    So, I’m leaning towards recommend Mentee push for prearranged transportation at future events with alcohol, perhaps not burning capital on Admin, and accept that what was a warmer relationship with Employee may need some cooling along with that revised bonus.

    Overall this whole situation has me so floored and gob smacked – am I missing some other good course of action here? And as for Employee – am I off base to think there should have been some kind of apology/this won’t happen again/I made a bad decision from them?

  120. Rage*

    This has just been the craziest six weeks ever.

    My boss, N, went on medical leave in late October. Within days, 2 of my coworkers, L & K, went rogue. (For the record, L&K are married, but neither reports to the other; they have the same boss. My boss is their grand boss.)

    There were a few annoying and weird things that happened, but the major issues were as follows:
    1. I spoke to a client’s parent about some things that were absolutely within my role. She had a question I couldn’t answer, so I offered to follow up with her child’s team to get her answer. I sent an email to the team with the question, asking whoever knew to please follow up with the parent. L did a Reply All and stated, “OP, maybe you shouldn’t take calls from parents.” WTF?

    2. I asked L about some information I found in our secondary software program, on a page that should not have been filled in. He responded that “[Page I didn’t ask about] and [Other page I also didn’t ask about] were now to be completed for all clients. This is a direct order from Dr. U [new COO].” Under normal circumstances I wouldn’t really care, except….*I* was the primary admin for this software program. (And L is not my boss.) (And I also had heard nothing about this.)

    3. A week or so later, I was discussing something in said program with K, and mentioned the pages that L had told me about. K said yes, and she was sorry, she had been talking with Dr. U about streamlining things and getting things “up to code” and she should have kept me in the loop but had gotten into a bit of “tunnel vision.” I was willing to overlook that, except that if I had to keep those 2 pages up, it would be doing duplicate work because we kept the same info in our primary client database, which was accessible via our intranet. (K was supposed to be making things easier for me, and now I have duplicate work to do.)

    4. L and I had an email exchange about who had responsibility for a particular page in secondary software (news flash: it’s me). The next day, another director sends me an email that she received from one of her team members. It was from L, instructing them that a new process had been instituted and that they now needed to fill out that very same page. “Did you know about this?” she asked me. Nope. (Note: obviously, I was not included on said email.) (Also note: L is not their supervisor, or even in their reporting line.)

    5. On a Monday, 4 people sent me separate emails asking if I had received specific documentation from a external business partner. L & K were 2 of the people, one of the others cc’d K in her email. I had not (and I had been following up regularly), so I followed up again with a voicemail. My contact responded by email, telling me that she had sent that information to L & K directly…on Thursday of the previous week. So they had the documents for 4 days before asking me if I had them. I might have been willing to forgive ONE of them for missing it in their inbox, but not both (and certainly not with the other recent events). Rep forwarded me the email she had sent them, which included the necessary documents, which I then distributed to the team following my standard procedure. L did not reply. K said “Thanks!” Neither has ever mentioned that they had this information in their inboxes all along.

    6. A couple of weeks later, K sends me an email with an “Action Plan” attached. The email stated that they (K & Dr. U) met to discuss plans for moving forward with getting secondary software “compliant” and had created an action plan, and it’s “successful execution and timely completion were necessary to move on to the next step”. There were 5 items on the plan, all of which had been assigned to ME. 1 item had a due date in 4 days and was impossible for me to complete without angering somebody’s legal team. Another item had a due date in 2 weeks and was also impossible to complete as there were still follow-up meetings happening regarding a number of line items. Still another item was listed as “Additional Improvements” – due 12/31/2021. When I asked what the additional improvements were, I was told that the list was still being formulated.

    By this point, I had already spoken to HR (I had escalated the “you shouldn’t take calls from parents” comment to L’s boss, and I was concerned about retaliation), and HR said, “You should talk to Dr. U.” I was not really thrilled about this – Dr. U had only been on board for barely 3 months and while we had met, he and I had not spent any one-on-one time (Dr. U is my grand boss). I asked him for a private meeting. HR had sent him everything and he was pretty appalled. I showed him the “Action Plan” – he had never seen the document before. K had done the entire thing on her own. He scheduled a meeting for himself, me, K, K’s boss, and K’s boss’s 2nd in command (H).

    In the end, due to a variety of circumstances, it was just me, Dr. U, and K. At one point, Dr. U tapped a document that was on his desk, one that I had never seen before. He referred to it as “New Proposed Process” – and it would impact about 80% of my current role. He stated that K had developed it. Since I had not seen it before, I asked if she would send me a copy. She agreed and removed a printed copy from underneath her laptop.

    This “New Proposed Process” – 80% of my role – removed me from *every aspect of that process* except for one: “place completed document in client file.” I wish I was making this up.

    Now let’s get back to Mr. L. He’d been a bit quiet, but once he learned that my boss N, was returning on Weds of this week, he immediately began emailing me for updates on things and cc’ing her (did I mention I was on vacation Mon & Tues and had previous told him on Thurs of the previous week that I did not have any current updates?). Then, on Wednesday, I emailed another staff member (A) who holds the same title as L about some information I was missing from him. (Also, A recruited L to our company – they had worked together previously and were friends outside of work.) A emailed and told me that he was out due to surgery (something I didn’t know) and had emailed that information to L, who would be covering for him in his absence. I don’t think I need to explain that L did not send me that information – information I needed to complete documentation for an upcoming meeting.

    Yeah, just like the Beastie Boys said, “Listen, all ya’ll it’s sabotage.”

    My boss, N, is pretty annoyed and asked for a full timeline with documentation (which I pretty much already had put together due to my discussions with HR). Me, N, and Dr. U are meeting next week. I still really don’t know what is going to happen with my role – but I do know that 2 people are trying, for some reason, to force me out.

    I *love* working for this organization. I’m currently in grad school so I can advance my career with them. I don’t want to leave. But I also don’t want to have to spend 40 hours a week looking over my shoulder and wondering who is saying what, or what will happen next. I have my boss in my corner, Dr. U in my corner, even the CEO (F) loves me (I don’t think she knows about all of this), but still….the uncertainty is annoying as heck and I hate that somebody I honestly liked and trusted (K) has just blown all of that to kingdom come.

    1. Chauncy Gardener*

      I’m so sorry you’re having to deal with all this drama!
      I think I would say, if you’re comfortable with it, have a very direct conversation with N and tell him everything that has happened since he went on leave. It sounds like he has your back and if I were N, and Dr U, frankly, I would very much want to know about all the unnecessary drama, intrigue and obfuscation of processes

    2. MiloSpiral*

      Woof, this sounds rough! It sounds like there’s some passive-aggressive (and sometimes downright aggressive) shenanigans going down on your team. And that can be hard to confront directly, because there’s plausible deniability about intent… which is exactly why passive aggressive act the way they do in the first place.

      One thing that stands out to me in your story, though: have you tried talking to either L or K directly about what the heck is going on? As in, WHY they are behaving this way? In the first incident, you elevated it straight to HR. In the fifth incident, you emailed L and K back with the documentation that the external business partner had already provided to them, but you didn’t mention that the partner said they’d already emailed it to them. And in the sixth incident, L hadn’t sent you the documentation you needed… so did you follow up with him about said documentation, when time had passed and it still wasn’t in your inbox?

      These two characters definitely seem like they’re acting shady, and there’s clearly a communication problem with your team. But I’m wondering where in all of this your own communication is happening (or not happening). In the instances when you DID talk to L and K, it seemed to be following up about the work, but not about their behavior itself once they offered explanations that contradicted your own understanding.

      (PS what on earth happened between your one-on-one meeting with Dr. U, and your meeting with him and K? It sounds like he was pretty concerned that K had become your quasi-boss, but then in the next meeting he was signing off on a new plan that K had made for you. I can understand why you were floored.)

      1. Rage*

        To answer your questions: no, I have not (as yet) spoken directly with either L or K about this. Perhaps I should have – but the incident I escalated to L’s boss was actually the THIRD thing he’d done that was aimed at me (I only went to HR after that as I was concerned about retaliation because I escalated). The previous two I had responded in an attempt to resolve, and ended up being lectured (and low-key threatened) – as in “You are violating [federal law] by not having this documentation in place.” (Um, I just sent you that documentation and said that, yes, I did have it for all clients?) And “We need to be careful with these team emails. Client confidentiality is something you should be taking seriously.” (This was, by the way, used with Reply All so it’s kind of ironic.)

        I had 2 reasons for my hesitation on that point: first, I was dealing with some emergent health issues myself at the time, and a new medication I had been placed on was giving me some…really abnormal-for-me emotional reactions to things. His “maybe you shouldn’t take calls from parents” email actually enraged me to “BBQ fork in the eyeball” level fury (which I recognized as something that obviously had an external locus, so I pulled back immediately). Also helped me and my doc figure out just what the med was triggering (for certain reasons, I can’t go off that med or switch it to something else – because there isn’t anything else, really – but we were able to add another med to combat that, and it has helped enormously, and I feel more like “me” than I have in a while. I’m probably to the point where I could just go and be like “What the hell is up, Dude” but at this point it’s all escalated up to Dr. U so I’m just going to let him handle this going forward.)

        Second reason was that I knew K was talking to Dr. U – and by his casual name-dropping, figured that L probably was somehow too (turned out I was right). I didn’t know what they were saying to him about me and since I didn’t have my direct boss there to shield me, I was seriously concerned that if I did attempt to directly confront either of them, it would go straight up to Dr. U (probably with a nice twist on it that made me out to be some unhinged bad-apple employee). So instead I leaned on HR and just kept them in the loop and just tried to keep doing my job as best I could. (While not spiraling off into the emotional wilderness due to med issues.)

        As for the “new plan” – Dr. U did not sign off on it. He actually stated in that meeting that he wanted to wait until N (my boss) returned before making any decisions on any changes to any processes – and then sent an email out (to, oh, pretty much everyone) saying that NOTHING has been decided yet and everyone needs to rein in their communications to the contrary. (I should have specified that.) I was floored because, again, K had made a proposal about MY ROLE that had not been shared with me.

        N (my boss) returned Wednesday, and I showed her this “proposed new process”. Her reaction was unexpected. “Great! This frees you up to do other things!” Aahhhh….yeah, that sort of put me in a tailspin. But at that point she had not yet met with Dr. U and I think that after THAT meeting, she got a better idea of just what I had been dealing with. She & I met Friday afternoon and had a very good discussion. It is still likely that we will go with some form of this “proposed new process” – because I know there are things she would like me to take on that I simply can’t (because that process is 80% of my role and I’m sort of around 120% capacity as it is anyway), and Dr. U hinted that he thinks I should be doing some higher-level things. Which, OK, that’s fine – but have those conversations WITH me, not behind my back. Because, for all I know, what you have in mind for me are things I don’t necessarily like or want to do. (Some of the things I know N wants me involved in are in my wheelhouse, so to speak, but there are other things I’ve taken on in the past year that were supposed to be temporary – but things that happened later in the year meant that the positions that we were supposed to get to take those things off me were eliminated so….I’m stuck with them, and I don’t want them to become “mine” permanently – but that’s a very real possibility.)

        I have a meeting Tuesday with Dr U & my boss. And then immediately after that I’ve been invited to a director-level meeting (by Dr. U personally) with people from across the organization. So that’s kind of interesting.

        I’ll provide an update to The Continuing Saga of the Rogue Coworkers in next Friday’s open thread.

        1. MiloSpiral*

          I’m so sorry to hear about how your medication was affecting you negatively! That is really rough. I’m glad you’re starting to feel better now that you and your doctor have tweaked your treatment plan.

          Thanks for clarifying re: the timeline on things, what Dr U’s position on all this is (or seems to be), and why you hadn’t talked to L or K directly. It sounds like L is kind of a nightmare to communicate with: when you tried to communicate directly with him, he deflected away from his own behavior and onto what YOU were (ostensibly) doing wrong. True to non-confrontational, passive aggressive form.

          It sounds like Dr U sees a lot of potential in you, which is cool! But yeah, I think you’re right to ask yourself going into this conversation, “Do *I* want to do this?”

          I’m excited to hear the update in the next open thread!

  121. Coffee and Excel*

    Anyone else work at a job that is simultaneously good and the worst job ever? My team is great and there a lot of good people but the organization as a whole is so terrible. Like non compliant with regulations and such. I am so stressed and want to leave but am also worried about getting stuck at a worse job. I’ve only been at my current job for 5 months.

    1. Chauncy Gardener*

      You have nothing to lose by looking! You’re employed, but IMHO need to get out, the job market is overall great and you have time to fully vet any new potential employer. I say go for it!

  122. Your In-Laws*

    If a job application asks you if you have any immediate family already working at a company, do your in-laws count?

    I’m interviewing for a job that asks about immediate family at the company when you apply, and I realized later that my MIL does in fact work for this (large, multistate) company at a different office in a different line of work. It didn’t occur to me at the time because I wouldn’t have otherwise thought of her as my own immediate family. In short, she is like the mean MIL from a cartoon who tries to make sure her only interactions with me are insulting, so I avoid her like the plague. Everything I do is wrong and I’m not good enough for the family, etc. When I tried to initiate a conversation with her to ask if we should mention it to HR, she gave me some passive-aggressive jabs and then bounced before I could ask her anything.

    Any idea if this relation is close enough to me that I need to contact HR? I know the purpose of this question is probably to avoid problematic nepotism, so I am now afraid that there’s no way for me to handle this that won’t be a problem somehow. If they do care and I don’t tell them, I’m hiding it and could get in huge trouble later if I did get hired. If I do tell them I’m afraid it’ll look fishy that I forgot to mention it until now and will reflect poorly on me. On top of that, if the process of them looking into this involves talking to my MIL at all, she is a jerk and will be super mean to me about it through all the upcoming holidays. I am really, really dreading that possibility most of all.

    So what I’m really hoping is that the answer is no, she’s not close enough that I need to go proactively disclose it now. But if I DO need to do something, what should I do? And is it likely or unlikely that they will mention it to her if I do talk to them? If we were, like, estranged or something, I would feel fine with telling them that and asking them to be considerate of that if they did talk to her. But “I do see her, she’s just a butthead” doesn’t seem like a thing I should say. I can say for sure that there is no possibility of us coming across each other if I got this job, it’s a massive company and there’s no proximity to our work whatsoever and we wouldn’t even be working at the same branch location.

    1. PollyQ*

      Sorry, I think the answer is that you do need to tell them. “Close” in this context generally means the technical family tree sense, not emotional closeness. It won’t look awesome that you didn’t tell them already, but it’ll be a damn sight better than not telling them at all.

      1. Your In-Laws*

        I meant family tree close, not emotionally close. Like, is my MIL close enough a relation that I should have known to include her when they first asked the question, or is that usually not what folks mean when they say immediate?

        Until my wife mentioned it later, it genuinely did not occur to me that they might include family by marriage under “immediate” family. I don’t, generally speaking, think that is your own immediate family, whether you like them and see them at Sunday dinner every week or not. But I realized I have no clue whatsoever what the typical opinion is. I’m asking on here to try to figure out whether I’m weird and should have known better (and definitely need to talk to them about it ASAP) or if I was right the first time and can unclench.

        1. allathian*

          Depends a bit on the context, but at least in legal matters of impartiality, both blood kin and kin by marriage (or equivalent SO relationship) count.

        2. Banana Pancakes*

          I would think if you disclosed it with a “silly me, I misinterpreted this statement and realized my oversight!” that no one would really begrudge you. If they question it, I would reference the other office (other state?)/different department/etc.
          but yes, you should disclose it.

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      do your in-laws count

      Who knows? The company knows. Contact your interviewer and ask them directly whether “immediate family” for the purposes of the application means in-laws or not. If they say yes, then say something along the lines of, “Oh, sorry, my mistake. Yes, my mother-in-law works in X office.” Just be straightforward and briefly tell them something that explains that you misunderstood what they meant by “immediate family” and want to inform them of the relation.

  123. Thalassosaurus Rex*

    I’ve been with my current organization for more than a decade, and have seen a lot of expansion. This includes my boss and my boss’s boss, both of whom I have excellent relationships with. Through a series of unforced errors, I know that I’ll be promoted in the next cycle, and that my boss’s boss did not support the promotion (I suspect that my boss is on the same page, but don’t know for sure). I get it – my work group is already top-heavy, and my promotion has the potential to lead to grumbling about equity (I will be by far the youngest in our group at this level) and/or favoritism (because I assume that boss and boss’s boss won’t share that they opposed, but we do have good relationships). Both are personally frustrating, because in terms of every metric I have, I absolutely knocked this year out of the park, against not-insubstantial odds.

    Anyway, I guess that my question is around how I should handle this with my boss. When they call me to give me the official good news (they know I know, but we’ve yet to have the real conversation), do I let it go and be grateful? Do I ask my boss whether she’d supported the promotion? If I have the conversation and she did not support it, I’d like to get a sense for what (if anything) I could have done differently last year that would have changed her mind. Full disclosure, if I weren’t going to be promoted, it probably would have been pretty demotivating, given that I’m already flirting with some burnout and end of the year recognition/rewards are likely to be less-than-stellar across the board. I don’t want it to be an adversarial conversation, but the chances of coming out of it feeling more frustrated are real.

    1. Chauncy Gardener*

      I would be grateful, first off, because why not, then perhaps ask if there’s anything they could suggest that could help you succeed in the new role? That might give you an inkling about the lay of the land

  124. Help, please?*

    Hi everyone, I’m almost 4 months into a new job, and I’m seeking some advice: how can I diplomatically tell my manager that the reason I didn’t follow a certain policy is because I’ve never actually been shown the policy. (In fact, I don’t think the policy actually exists in written form.)

    The only reason why I’m worried about it is that she seems determined to make any sort of feedback official in terms of some sort of performance plan?

    I’m meeting her again next week to talk about it, and I’m terrified and pissed off, because I don’t want to lose my job, but I can’t follow a policy that I’ve never been shown, and may not actually exist in a written sense.

    1. Kay*

      What do you mean by “shown” the policy. Were you aware of it? Even if it isn’t in writing? It almost sounds like you are aware there is some kind of policy, but aren’t following it because you haven’t seen it in writing and are using that as an out. If this isn’t the case then you can disregard, but if it is a reasonable policy that you didn’t follow it is also reasonable to expect your boss isn’t happy that you didn’t either follow it or follow up with them.

      There are plenty of unwritten policies that you are expected to follow like don’t schedule your beach vacation while we are expected to be slammed, or don’t unnecessarily interrupt your boss. So my point is yes, you can follow a policy not in writing and an excuse of “but there is nothing in writing that says I need to empty my trash can before I leave for the day” is not going to fly and your boss will understandably be pissed.

      Now – if this is either a very questionable unwritten policy or something you weren’t actually aware of this changes things drastically. For a questionable unwritten policy (and I’m talking illegal, illogical, dangerous, is bananapants) I would start with an apology, state you weren’t aware it was an actual policy, and ask if your boss can point you to the written policy for clarification. Depending on how bizarre the policy is you will have to determine if safety is an issue, you can spend political capital when new to challenge it, or if it just goes against your moral code (like the LW working at Lie To Clients As A Policy company) and decide whether it is something you can bring yourself to follow. Aka – what are you willing to do to keep your job?

      If this was truly something you weren’t aware of, depending on the situation and what you know of your boss – apply the appropriate level of effusiveness to the apology as warranted by the situation, explain you had no idea this was a policy, endeavor to never make this mistake again and explain how you will prevent this situation from happening in the future (is there an employee handbook or policy and procedure manual that contains detailed list of policies you didn’t read that you are now going to pay special attention to? Or, if there isn’t a resource ask your boss for input on where to go for direction in the future).

      1. Help, please?*

        Thank you so much for your reply! I am going to use this wording in the meeting. I can’t thank you enough!

        And to answer your question: I had no idea the policy existed, to the point that I had been told by the senior people training me that doing the complete opposite of what the policy (apparently) states is both perfectly accepted and very routine.

        1. Kay*

          That information… changes things a bit.. In some ways good, some bad. Something seems to be going on – I don’t know what but I would think on that carefully. What do you know of the players involved/office dynamics, etc?

          I would make sure this information is conveyed to your boss during the discussion (as it is very relevant!) and I would make sure to ask for guidance. Perhaps use something like, after your apologizing bit and in the how to prevent this from happening again part, “During training I learned that was routinely how is done. Being new I don’t want to be making these kinds of mistakes, is there a policy manual or another resource I can read so I know how I should correctly be doing things and can prevent this kind of situation in the future?”

          As a new employee you are relying on your training-they can’t expect you to know what you don’t know! Hopefully your boss handles things well, but if anything punitive comes from this I would be seriously job hunting. Good luck!

    2. Freelance Anything*

      I agree with Kay that it heavily depends on if it was a) a policy you knew about it and b) a policy that is illegal/unsafe etc

  125. Framing firing*

    This question kind of builds on the previous one. I was just fired for not following a policy that I had been told I was not required to follow. However, it turns out that legally, I was required to be following that policy. The supervisor who erroneously exempted me from it is the CEO’s wife. That’s the only reason I can figure out that I was suddenly fired out of nowhere with no warning for a policy I had been told didn’t apply to me. The CEO was also trying to outsource my department, which would have been difficult to do if I was still there, since there are some procedural challenges with layoffs in the organization. Here’s the thing. I was only there six months, but it is a field I was transitioning into, so I build a lot of skills in the time that I was there. There are other supervisory staff who are willing to give me a good reference. How the heck can I frame this in the interview?

    1. Gary Patterson's Cat*

      Maybe something to the effect of:
      “I was fired after being expressly told by my supervisor, the CEO’s wife, not to follow a policy that I was legally required to follow.”

      Anyone hiring should be able to read between the lines on that one. It’s sounds like are real effedup place.

      1. MiloSpiral*

        Would that wording make it sound like OP doesn’t have good judgment, though? If I heard that, I might think, “Well, you were legally required to follow it….. so why didn’t you?”

        I suppose that could just be fixed by saying “a policy I didn’t know I was legally required to follow,” and between that and seeing on your resume how new you are to the field, they might understand.

        1. Enough*

          Maybe something more like this. First point is that you were following supervisor orders and the result. Then second why not following the policy was a problem that you were not aware of. (assuming that you were not aware of the legal requirement beforehand.)

          I was fired after being expressly told by my supervisor, the CEO’s wife, not to follow a specific policy. I subsequently found out that it I was legally required to follow it.

  126. Banana Pancakes*

    I am applying for promotional jobs with in my (state government) agency. Three jobs all close next Friday, doing the same job in different locations* (typically covering a one-to-two-county region). All are out of the same (agency-based) region, under the same Manager, with the same duties and same Statement of Qualifications supplemental questions. Which all must be submitted separately.

    HOW do I write unique SOQs and Cover Letters for these positions?! Am I excited and passionate about them each? Yes! But for the SAME reasons. Because they are the SAME JOB.
    I know I am overthinking this, but I am so unsure how to start.

    *any one of these would necessitate a move, so locational preference doesn’t really come into play.

    1. MiloSpiral*

      If they’re the same job, why do you need to submit more than one application? I’ve never worked in govt before, but typically when I see job postings who are hiring more than one person for the same position, they’ll state as much in one job ad. Is there some reason why one application wouldn’t cover it?

      1. Banana Pancakes*

        @MiroSpiral: They are three separate job postings with unique Job Posting codes. They all cover the same duties, under the same Program Manager and in the same region, but different counties, so technically separate job postings.
        And everything is conducted through our (horribly flawed) hiring website, so alas… It is three different submissions or sending one application via certified mail in the hopes it is accepted.

    2. PollyQ*

      If they’re really exactly the same job, with exactly the same manager, I’d just reuse the SOQ & Cover Letters. It sounds like the requirement for multiple applications is just a formality that their system is imposing, so I think it’s fine to use the same thing each time.

  127. asking for a fic*

    Not sure if this or the Saturday thread is the more appropriate thread for this, but work ethics question from a fanfic author.
    I’m remixing another writer’s online story (with their permission).

    In the original two characters meet via a hookup app and its strongly implied to be love at first sight for both of them. Due to their individual backgrounds it takes them a while to go from hooking up to a more emotional relationship.

    My evil brain went, yes but what if you had that immediate falling in love in a setting where it’s massively inappropriate.

    Like a business with a strict ethics code against inter office dating.

    To make things easier on myself, they work for separate family owned companies who are currently negotiating a joint venture.

    Neither character is going to be actively working on the joint venture but they are highly involved in the prior contract negotiations.

    One of the companies (and the family who owns it) has a strict ethics code and is a leader in anti-sexual-harassment policy development, while the other is partnering with them to clean up their image after a Weinstein level scandal involving the recently fired CEO (who is father to one of the main characters)

    At what point is it hey you are hot and I want to get to know you vs it would be unethical to ask this person out as there is an inherent power imbalance in our positions? After the negotiations minimum, but how long after? Does the on-going joint venture matter?

    1. Katrine*

      It’s going to be and remain highly unethical if they are continuing the venture together and are involved in the work of these companies in any way. There’s no point there where it becomes morally OK – the interest power imbalance and ethical issues don’t evaporate over time.

  128. MiloSpiral*

    Can anyone in the nonprofit world out there give me a temperature check on something? (especially fundraising side)

    I work for a tiny (2.5 employees) organization as their one paid fundraiser. My boss told me yesterday that she was going to advocate to the board to give me a raise, but she cautioned me that the board would probably want me to raise even more money this coming year, since the raise would increase their budget. Before she went to them about giving me a raise, she wanted to check in with me to make sure I understood that and would be comfortable with it (the idea of doing more work to make up for my raise, basically).

    …..is this normal? Is this a known thing in the fundraising world that if you want to get paid better you basically have to make up for it by making the org even more money next year? I understand the financial reality of the org, but it felt odd to have my raise framed in the context of “and you better make it worth our while.” I’m not even sure by how MUCH more they want me to make money: when I asked, my boss said they were making the budget in January, so we’d know better then. I understand that by investing in an employee they expect good results, but I figured that was a given, since I’d be more valuable now that I’d had some experience there.

    (PS For many, many reasons, I am already actively looking for another job. There are so many issues with my current working situation that I’m not looking to fix it, just to move on, but I’m not ready to put in my notice quite yet. But since dysfunctional jobs can distort your concept of “normal,” and I’m very new to this field, I’d like to get a sense for whether this interaction was weird or not.)

    1. Alexis Rosay*

      To be honest, this doesn’t sound particularly odd to me, though that doesn’t mean it’s good or that you have to go along with it. Having to fundraise for your own salary can indeed be the reality at a small nonprofit, and this is not the first time I’ve heard of it. I think it’s more a function of the size of the organization rather than the fundraising role specifically–and perhaps of your boss. “You better make it worth our while” sounds like a very crappy framing, almost a threat. I’ve had bosses have kind, direct conversations with me about the financial realities of the nonprofit that still left me feeling like I was valued.

      My impression is that fundraisers are in high demand at nonprofits, so if you’re not happy there, I hope you find it easy to move on!

      1. MiloSpiral*

        Thanks so much for your response! I should clarify, she did not actually say “you better make it worth our while,” but that’s kind of how it felt. Her tone was not threatening, but the impression I got was “well we want to give you this raise but you’ll have to make sure we can afford it,” without a definite number or goal in place.

        I think you make a good point about small organizations, though: that is the reality in which they are operating. And right now I’m looking for an organization with more resources and support than what my org can currently offer me, so setting my sights on a larger organization seems like my next step.

        Thanks for your encouragement!

        1. Alexis Rosay*

          Even if your boss didn’t use those exact words, it’s still not a great impression to leave you with! Honestly, having worked at small nonprofits (but still much larger than 2.5 employees), I always tried to handle my direct reports with kid gloves because the cost of turnover is so, so high at those places, and sometimes a big part of what you can offer to your employees is the feeling of being valued and respected along with the chance to do meaningful work. So if your boss does not realize this and has left you feeling undervalued, that’s not great.

          1. MiloSpiral*

            THIS. Yes. This is honestly, exactly what I’ve been missing: a true feeling of value paired with the idea that my work matters. My boss TELLS me a lot that she values my work and that she wouldn’t be able to run the place without me. But her sometimes-vague, other-times-nitpicky feedback, paired with a constant undercurrent of “nobody ever properly appreciates what we do” and “people aren’t going to read [what you write] anyway,” has pretty much tanked my morale. (And honestly, being told that my boss wouldn’t be able to run the place without me is not a reassuring thought; it’s actually incredibly anxiety-inducing!)

            In a way I feel bad for my boss because of exactly what you said: I know that when I quit, it is going to cost the organization a lot in time, energy, and money to replace me. It’s really a shame. Doesn’t stop me from ramping up my job search to warp speed in an attempt to get out of here as fast as I can, but it’s still a shame.

            Thanks for the temp check–I really appreciate it!

    2. Been There Done That*

      Not that unusual….as a fundraiser, it is your job to raise the revenue that is in the budget, so yeah…any increases in expenses (i.e. salaries) are going to have be solved in one of two ways – increase the amount of revenue budgeted to bring in or lower expenses somewhere else. It is just the nature of the job.

      1. MiloSpiral*

        Fair! As I was writing this part—”Is this a known thing in the fundraising world that if you want to get paid better you basically have to make up for it by making the org even more money next year?”—I thought, “Yeah, I mean, that sounds about right.” I think my next step in fundraising, if I continue along this path, is to look for a job with more support than my current org is able to give me.

        Thanks for your response!

  129. Requesting Advice from Others*

    What would you do?

    I have worked for the Teapot factory for awhile and have been a high performer. Recently, my job is to look into complaints of allegations of misconduct of a Big Teapot Boss who reports to the Big Llama. Then, I found out that they did not like what I was doing even after I told them that I am legally obligated to do so and will conduct it confidentially. I learned that Big Llama conducted his own investigation which is not confidential and hired someone to replace me but trying to pass it off as someone to report to me. It seems that Big Llama is trying pin the blame on me because I am conducting confidential inquires regarding these issues (when there’s smoke there’s fire). Big Llama does not like it, because it affects his favorite Big Teapot Boss. My job is to find out whether these claims are substantiated or unsubstantiated. So, Big Llama does not think that I know, but I did find out.

    What should I do? Big Llama and Big Teapot Boss are gaslighting people, throwing me under the bus, and making sure he finds a way to get me fired.

Comments are closed.